# Post A Photograph Of Your Turntable



## Redcarmoose

As far as source components go these are both old fashion and new. The turntable is made of many materials and is configured in many ways. They would have to be the oldest way of producing music in the home along with musical instruments. They end up being very fascinating for some and can be frustrating for many. Post your table photographs if you own one.


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## thegr8brian

I was hoping for "Post photographs of your phonographs"


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## KuKuBuKu




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## JRG1990

^^^ Doesn't it melt your vinyl , i've heard they get pretty hot.


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## KuKuBuKu

Quote: 





jrg1990 said:


> ^^^ Doesn't it melt your vinyl , i've heard they get pretty hot.


 

 Yeah I know, any song longer than 30 some seconds usually makes a mess all over the platter. It's become pretty expensive to replace. It also emits a LOT of hum.


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## Gatepc

@KuKuBuKu is it balanced? But with the topic mentioned I would like to save up for a Rega RP1 after I buy some essentials for collage  haha


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## Fantasysage

How about just the needle:


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## KuKuBuKu

Quote: 





gatepc said:


> @KuKuBuKu is it balanced? But with the topic mentioned I would like to save up for a Rega RP1 after I buy some essentials for collage
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Unfortunateley not, but seeing as turntable cartriges are naturally balanced, I may reterminate it. As normal RCA has only two connectors, and XLRs have six, I expect the XLRs to be 3 times better sounding than single ended.


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## AuralRelations

Technics SL-1200M3D. Sorry for the crappy pic from my iPhone. 
   
  @Redcarmoose, what record clamp is that? I'm looking for a cheap record clamp or weight. Any recommendations?


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## Albinoni

Ohh thats very funny, like someone with a good sense of humour, as they say "laughter is the best medicine".


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## thegr8brian

auralrelations said:


> Technics SL-1200M3D. Sorry for the crappy pic from my iPhone.
> 
> @Redcarmoose, what record clamp is that? I'm looking for a cheap record clamp or weight. Any recommendations?




I'm going to be in the market for an SL-1200 soon too and I've been looking at some of the parts from KAB and soundhifi. KAB seems like they have a pretty good clamp for the SL-1200 as well as the very interesting fluid dampening if you plan to keep the stock tonearm.


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## Eee Pee

Old VPI HW-19 Jr with a couple upgrades.  Including the first generation VPI Memorial arm.
   
  Old Grado Sonata cartridge.
   

   

   

   
   
  Soon to be put back in service after about a ten year hiatus.  I can't wait.


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## AuralRelations

Quote: 





thegr8brian said:


> I'm going to be in the market for an SL-1200 soon too and I've been looking at some of the parts from KAB and soundhifi. KAB seems like they have a pretty good clamp for the SL-1200 as well as the very interesting fluid dampening if you plan to keep the stock tonearm.


 

 I was thinking of getting the KAB clamp. There's a KAB clap for cheaper and with a bubble level on Music Direct, which I find ironic. The one with the bubble level isn't even mentioned on KAB's website. Fluid damping seems cool and I'll check that out when I have more monies. Looking at a tonearm rewire too but I don't want to have to send my table so far.


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## AuralRelations

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Old VPI HW-19 Jr with a couple upgrades.  Including the first generation VPI Memorial arm.
> 
> Old Grado Sonata cartridge.
> 
> Soon to be put back in service after about a ten year hiatus.  I can't wait.


 


  How are you liking the Grado Sonata? I have to admit, I have a bit of a Grado fetish.


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## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





auralrelations said:


> Technics SL-1200M3D. Sorry for the crappy pic from my iPhone.
> 
> @Redcarmoose, what record clamp is that? I'm looking for a cheap record clamp or weight. Any recommendations?


 

 It is the standard el cheepo VPI plastic one. You can also get heavy chrome ones from VPI on their web site. You need a screw spindle to screw it onto with the plastic one. You could check the heavy chrome ones may not thread down I don't know? I always see heavy weights that fit universal tables on E-bay. You probably don't need to worry what the weight is as you table motor could churn ice-cream. I had two of those at one time.


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## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Old VPI HW-19 Jr with a couple upgrades.  Including the first generation VPI Memorial arm.
> 
> Old Grado Sonata cartridge.
> 
> ...


 

 I love seeing photos of tables. Call me a weirdo.......I look though Audiogon turntables and EBay. Not many like yours!


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## sooevo

My old Sanyo table! It's a Sanyo tp-1020 with an Ortofon 2M Red.


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## Redcarmoose

The guy I purchased my phono stage from loves his new Ortofon Black!


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## sooevo

Some day I hope to own an Ortofon Black! It must sound soo good because the budget Ortofon RED is just great! Makes the records sound soo much more exciting compared to my other catridge a shure m97xe which is more mellow and laid back sounding. The Ortofon pulls out soo much from those grooves and instrument seperation and bass response are just amazing for a $99 cartridge.


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## thegr8brian

auralrelations said:


> I was thinking of getting the KAB clamp. There's a KAB clap for cheaper and with a bubble level on Music Direct, which I find ironic. The one with the bubble level isn't even mentioned on KAB's website. Fluid damping seems cool and I'll check that out when I have more monies. Looking at a tonearm rewire too but I don't want to have to send my table so far.




Weird, I wonder what if there are any differences other than the bubble because that is much cheaper. From what I've heard, the fluid dampening will be a more cost effective upgrade than a rewire and you can diy. 

What cartridge do you have? I'm thinking I will get the AT440MLa.


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## thegr8brian

thegr8brian said:


> auralrelations said:
> 
> 
> > I was thinking of getting the KAB clamp. There's a KAB clap for cheaper and with a bubble level on Music Direct, which I find ironic. The one with the bubble level isn't even mentioned on KAB's website. Fluid damping seems cool and I'll check that out when I have more monies. Looking at a tonearm rewire too but I don't want to have to send my table so far.
> ...




I've actually just found the cheaper one on the KAB website here. It seems as though the more expensive one might be a better fit for the SL-1200 although the bubble level is nice.


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## AuralRelations

Ah thanks for the link, gr8brian. I wonder why there's such a big discrepancy in pricing for the two clamps. I should email and Kevin and ask. 
   
  I have a Grado Gold1. It sounds pretty damn good but I have only compared it to my Grado Black1 and my dad's Shure M97xe. I think the Shure tracks better but the Grado sounds a bit more musical and alive. The Gold1 has better extension and more bass impact. I've only got about 40hrs on the cart so hopefully it'll sound even better with time.


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## Hi-fi Wigwammer

Voyd 3 motor turntable with Reference Lexan platter and Bearing, Alphason HR100S arm (Kondo silver wired), Shelter 901 cartridge.


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## Lazarus Short

Didn't work, nevermind.


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## computerparts

Fun thread. I hope more people participate. Here's mine, Pink Triangle PT Original with Accuphase AC-2 cart. Not getting much use due to the recent arrival of the AN dac. I didn't realize how much dust shows up with the flash on the camera.


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## Eee Pee

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> Not many like yours!


 




  
  Got it around the mid '90s I guess.  I started with a Sota Moonbeam, it was about $400 back then.  The upgrade path hit very quickly with that one.  And being a poor college student made owning a great turntable tough, so the VPI Jr seemed to be the best choice.  Then I got the Grado Sonata to replace a lower model Grado cartridge (huge difference), then the new platter, then the arm.
   
  Living in apartments with roommates as a college kid was tough on the records and record player.  The best isolation stand I made was simply four cinder blocks, two per layer then rotated 90 degrees for the next layer, with four tennis balls underneath.  VERY EFFECTIVE at reducing interference with all the people walking around.


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## Redcarmoose

Tables are such a learning experience. I've owned many over the years .I purchased  the Vpi I own now used from a guy in a warehouse in downtown LA. I knew nothing of taking it apart for transport and drove with the arm and platter still in place. It was sitting in the front seat of my car and I tried to drive careful, like having a new baby on board. Later I found that doing that gives you a chance to bend the tip the arm balances on. Under close inspection I was lucky. I have a friend with a Vpi and I will never forget I came over to his house one morning and he said " You won't believe what happened, I had this friend over who somehow placed his hand in a bumping clumsy way on top of the arm head and bent the tip!" The tip looked like a fish hook! He was OK after a tip replacement. Last year I took my Scout apart and packed it into a Pelican 1600 camera case and put it on a plane. I forgot to unlock the locks for the security check and while I was away they cut these two giant gate locks, went though the case to check out its' contents, repacked the case and it made it fine.


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## 9pintube

Clearaudio Ref. with Graham 2.2 arm with extra arm wand for easy cartridge comparisons. Powered by Clearaudio Accurate Power Generator.. I also have the original Clearaudio Souther TQ-1 Tangential Tonearm... I use Lyra "Helikon" and Clearaudio "Signature" cartridges,all hooked to phono pre with Music Groove II phono cable..Saving for a new Lyra "Titan i"...sorry for the dust.


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## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





9pintube said:


> Clearaudio Ref. with Graham 2.2 arm with extra arm wand for easy cartridge comparisons. Powered by Clearaudio Accurate Power Generator.. I also have the original Clearaudio Souther TQ-1 Tangential Tonearm... I use Lyra "Helikon" and Clearaudio "Signature" cartridges,all hooked to phono pre with Music Groove II phono cable..Saving for a new Lyra "Titan i"...sorry for the dust.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JohnRichard

Beogram 4002

   
  My favorite turntable (that I own) by far. I just added it to the item list if you would like to read a brief review and some of my personal thoughts.


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## AuralRelations

This thread is making me drool. 
   
  @John: I've always wondered about tangential arms. Saw a 4002 on Craigslist the other day. Thanks for your impressions!


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## nikongod

Audioquest PT-6 recordscratcherholderstick with Grado Reference Platinum recordscratcherneedlebox. the Technics EPA-500 arm totally pwns this arm, but considering the disparity in price this should come as no surprise. the arm is only on the deck because the Grado screws dont fit in the slots on the EPA-500 headshell. grumbles.
  The amplification of the signal from this cartridge is handled by an older Radio Shack DJ mixer which I have found to have a very good compliance to the RIAA equalization standard and generally good sound
   

   
  SME-3012s2
   
  In this photo the recordscratcherholderstick looks about 2ft long despite being slightly less than 12" (for what these things cost they should give you the full 12"! The audioquest is also less than 9"! Id expect this sort of "ooh we measure it our own special way that makes it look like 9" on a ruler that makes nikongod look like hes got a tice in his trousers" from a cable salesman, but never a reputable company) Most tonearms are an inch too short. 
   

   
  A closeup of the Grado recordscratcherneedle
   

   
  Denon DL103 (the version that doesn't need improving, and hasnt been improved in its 40something years of production) mounted on the SME3012s2. There really is no other way to use this cartridge.
   
  The amplification of the signal from this cartridge is done by a phono stage of my own design. Other days I use a cinemag SUT with the previously mentioned radio-shack mixer.
   

   
  Its got a big rectangular button to start & stop.
  it also goes at 33,45,78rpm, with +/-10% adjustment at all speeds.


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## Redcarmoose

Weird Science  Nikongod attemps to create the perfect woman, but she turns out to be more than that.


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## Redcarmoose




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## JohnRichard

Quote: 





auralrelations said:


> This thread is making me drool.
> 
> @John: I've always wondered about tangential arms. Saw a 4002 on Craigslist the other day. Thanks for your impressions!


 

  
  The thought behind the tangential arm is:  When a master record is (literally) cut from the original (2" tape of course!) master, it is cut literally on a lathe.  While it is a mathematical fact that a true tangential relationship between stylus and groove is achieved only at two points (where the arc bisects the tangent), tracking angle errors occur at every other location.
   
  Basically you need a high mass to keep the stylus in the groove, but the increased mass causes greater sluggishness in the movement of the arm (tangential inertia).  In well designed tonearms, the total deviation is about 2-degrees, but even that will distort high frequencies.  The main problem is the tonearm assembly mass causing the stylus to want to skate towards the center.  This also has the added effect (when talking about anti-skating forces) of the stylus being pressed against the inner groove wall and producing unequal signal.
   
  When B&O set out to design their new tone arm they had a number of criteria they wanted to meet.  But, basically, they designed an optically triggered DC servo, a super lightweight tone arm, super lightweight stylus, and when finished had a tracking error skew that never exceeded 0.04-degrees (thats FAR less than the 2-degree error allowed by high-end radial arms).
   
  The entire turntable is suspended inside the frame, and the tonearm is sprung and pendulum suspended, and physically coupled to the platter assembly.  Move the platter, the tonearm moves too.  All that means that a super warped record SHOULD play fine, but I'm not willing to find out just yet.  It also has the benefit of being able to rap the side of the unit with a good sized hammer, and transmitting NO vibration. 
   
  One last note about the BeoGram 4002 (Gram because B&O state this is not a turntable, but rather a Gramophone):  The Beogram 4002 was designed to be obsolescence-proof.  The MMC 6000 pickup cartridge can play CD-4 (Quadraphonic), all matrix, stereo and mono discs.  There is also space in the cabinet for a built in demodulator, but I don't think my unit has that.  It can also be used with an external demodulator (which I found just the other day for $80, but I don't have any Quad discs)...
   
  Hope that helps!


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## Redcarmoose

One last note about the BeoGram 4002 (Gram because B&O state this is not a turntable, but rather a Gramophone):  The Beogram 4002 was designed to be obsolescence-proof.  The MMC 6000 pickup cartridge can play CD-4 (Quadraphonic), all matrix, stereo and mono discs.  There is also space in the cabinet for a built in demodulator, but I don't think my unit has that.  It can also be used with an external demodulator (which I found just the other day for $80, but I don't have any Quad discs)...   Wow I will have to check that out!


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## thegr8brian

Just won a SL-1200M3D off eBay.  I'll post some pics once I get it all setup.


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## 883dave




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## sk3383




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## sk3383

Pro-Ject RPM 1.3 Genie
 - Zyx RS10-02 Cartridge
  - Boston Audio Design Mat 1
   
  Not Pictured:
  -------------------
  Tom Evans Microgroove Phono Stage
  Milky Zero Stat
  Nagaoka Rolling 152
  SOTA Record Cleaning Machine
  Various Mobile Fidelity Cleaning Products


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## Redcarmoose

The turntable photos are getting sexy.


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## MorbidToaster

Subbed.


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## Eee Pee

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> The turntable photos are getting sexy.


 


  They've been sexy since I posted.


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## roadcykler

The turntable is a Music Hall MMF 5.1 SE and the cartridge is a Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood.


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## AuralRelations

Quote: 





roadcykler said:


> The turntable is a Music Hall MMF 5.1 SE and the cartridge is a Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood.


 


  Is that an Onzow Zerodust I spy? How do you like it? I was thinking of picking one up. Cheapest I've seen it for is $50 on eBay.


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## nikongod

Quote: 





auralrelations said:


> Is that an Onzow Zerodust I spy? How do you like it? I was thinking of picking one up. Cheapest I've seen it for is $50 on eBay.


 

 I would not buy another one.


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## roadcykler

I think it works great. I had another one from a different company for a while but it got hard and wouldn't collect anything. I e-mailed them and told them what happened and that I'd only had it about 3 months and they sent me some new goo but it did the same thing. I think the Onzow is ridiculously priced for what it is but so far it's done the job quite well. 
  Quote: 





auralrelations said:


> Is that an Onzow Zerodust I spy? How do you like it? I was thinking of picking one up. Cheapest I've seen it for is $50 on eBay.


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## AuralRelations

Quote: 





nikongod said:


> I would not buy another one.


 


  What stylus cleaner would you recommend, nikongod?


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## nikongod

My normal stylus cleaning routine is as follows:
   
  A once over with a soft long-bristle brush between every side.
   
  Doing the Mr. Clean's Magic eraser thing after every few records. 
   
  And When it cant be avoided I use the "groovy" wet stylus cleaner on the short stiff brush they include. 
   
  Something that I consider pretty important to SQ, and the life of my needles & records is that I am pretty OCD about cleaning records before I play them. Not every time, but before a record goes on my TT I wash it. OTOH, the vast majority of my records are garage sale/thrift store finds so grime is a fact of life. If you have a LOT of dirty records buying a cleaner is a GREAT idea. If you have only a few make friends with someone who has one. Im totally happy cleaning a record once, and then just spot-checking it with the carbon fiber brush before each side.


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## AuralRelations

Thanks for the advice, nikongod. That's pretty close to what I'm doing. I have a crap stylus brush that came with my Shure M97xe. I dip my Grado Gold1 in a block of Magic Eraser every couple of records. Haven't used any wet or polymer based cleaners yet but it seems like I don't need to unless it's super dirty.


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## 9pintube

Quote:


nikongod said:


> My normal stylus cleaning routine is as follows:
> 
> A once over with a soft long-bristle brush between every side.
> 
> ...


 
  I agree 100% with what *nikongod, *
 says about the zerodust glob cleaner,The magic eraser is the best. The Goop "thingie" can be dangerous to a cantilever..I pretty much use his steps in cleaning my LP's after they come off of my 16.5 VPI R.C. the best investment I made, yrs. ago......I also use the Allsop cleaner in between Vacum cleaning.....I've seen some nice Turntables posted...... Hey *nikongod*, what arm (SME??) was that again you are using with your T.T.....I thought for sure that was a 12"..... You say It's a little shorter... How or what protractor did you use, if I may ask......I bet it tracks SMOOTH!!!!* *


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## nikongod

Quote: 





9pintube said:


> I agree 100% with what *nikongod, *
> says about the zerodust glob cleaner,The magic eraser is the best. The Goop "thingie" can be dangerous to a cantilever..I pretty much use his steps in cleaning my LP's after they come off of my 16.5 VPI R.C. the best investment I made, yrs. ago......I also use the Allsop cleaner in between Vacum cleaning.....I've seen some nice Turntables posted...... Hey *nikongod*, what arm (SME??) was that again you are using with your T.T.....I thought for sure that was a 12"..... You say It's a little shorter... How or what protractor did you use, if I may ask......I bet it tracks SMOOTH!!!!* *


 

 Its an SME3012s2, and yes its AWESOME. the Denon DL-103 gets a lot of (totally un-deserved) hate, but it is an outstanding match for this arm.
   
  Its kind of a gripe of mine, but there are 2 ways of measuring the length of a tonearm. Some MFR's measure arm pivot to spindle, others measure pivot to stylus tip. SME, audioquest, Linn, and probably some others are in the "pivot to stylus" camp, which means that they are about 1/2" shorter than they claim to be. Try dropping a Linn arm on a rega TT (or vice versa) for a good laugh... both claim to be 9" arms, but they are totally different. As a tangent, its a shame that REGA didnt make a 10" arm instead of the 9" when they were starting their empire. it would still fit a vast majority of plinths, and longer is better.*
   
  My preferred alignment method uses a unique set of null points. As far as I know there is nothing like this on any commercial protractor, but using cheap generic protractors isnt that much harder once you get the hang of it. I start by roughing in the alignment on a 2 point Stevenson protractor that I downloaded from vinylengine. Then I fine tune it to my own null points using the "Chpratz protractor" (also from vinylengine). My null points are: 64 & 117mm. They are a compromise between the more common compromises, with a slight emphasis on "inner grove" performance - not as much emphasis as "standard" stevenson, but then not as much distortion in the middle of the disc either. 
   
  * Thats what she said.


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## the_equalizer

Some drop dead gorgeous tables in this thread, maybe one day....  
   
  In the meantime here's mine. Cartridges include an AT440Mla and an AT95E mounted in individual headshells and aligned with the Technics arc protractor from Vinyl Engine. Tracking force is set to 1.4 grams on both using a Shure SFG-2 Stylus Force Gauge. My phono preamp is a DIY RJM Audio Very Simple Phono Stage, I've been using it for more than a year and I'm very happy with it so far.
   
  After some months of suffering with bad cartridges and misalignment, I'm finally really happy with the sound produced by this setup.
   

   
   
  Ok, time to go back to Joe Pass' Virtuoso. Cheers!


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## nikongod

Quote: 





the_equalizer said:


> Some drop dead gorgeous tables in this thread, maybe one day....
> 
> In the meantime here's mine. Cartridges include an AT440Mla and an AT95E mounted in individual headshells and aligned with the Technics arc protractor from Vinyl Engine. Tracking force is set to 1.4 grams on both using a Shure SFG-2 Stylus Force Gauge. My phono preamp is a DIY RJM Audio Very Simple Phono Stage, I've been using it for more than a year and I'm very happy with it so far.
> 
> ...


 

 I like the 1200 a lot 
   
  On that note, get a Stevinson protractor!!!111
   
  The VAST majority of off the shelf protractors are baerwald, which is almost impossible to achieve on a Technics 1200 arm. I spent weeks fighting this when I had a 1200. Someone should just post this  Technics kind of hints at it with their arm geometry specifications for the 1200, but never outright says it. grumbles.


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## Redcarmoose

Many years ago I was a DJ and borrowed a friends Jeep to take rental Technics 1200 DJ equipment to this Christmas Party. After the party we loaded everything into the Jeep and I headed back to my house at 1:00am. While on the freeway with the music at 9, I all of a sudden felt this big breeze through the side window. I just thought it was the wind. I arrived at my house and moments later the owner of the Jeep arrived to take his Jeep home. He looked at the back of his Jeep and the whole rear window had been knocked out. I guess while on the freeway the DJ coffin had slid back in such a way as to knock the rear window out! He started yelling, got into the Jeep and proceeded to kick all the equipment {rental equipment} out onto the cement. The DJ coffin landed on one end {six feet long} and balanced for a second before falling upside down onto the ground. Upon opening the lid, the platters were out but to my amazement after putting it all back together the Technics 1200 turntables worked perfect!


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## the_equalizer

Quote: 





nikongod said:


> I like the 1200 a lot
> 
> On that note, get a Stevinson protractor!!!111
> 
> The VAST majority of off the shelf protractors are baerwald, which is almost impossible to achieve on a Technics 1200 arm. I spent weeks fighting this when I had a 1200. Someone should just post this  Technics kind of hints at it with their arm geometry specifications for the 1200, but never outright says it. grumbles.


 

 Thanks! I'm enjoying it a lot now too! Specially during the last week, since I got the carts aligned (and got rid of the M97xe).
   
  I seem to recall reading somewhere that the plastic overhang tool supplied with the SL-1200 is compliant with Stevenson alignment. Anyway, I did try for entire DAYS (and some nights) to align the cartridge using the cardboard protractor supplied with the Shure M97xe (a Baerwald, supposedly) to no avail.
   
  Finally last week I managed to find a printer (HP LaserJet 1320) that printed *perfectly* the Vinyl Engine arc protractor specific to the Technics SL-1200 and that did it, I managed to align both cartridges in minutes.
   
  Curiously enough, the arc protractor *is* a Baerwald  . Turns out it requires pushing the cartridge all the way forward and twisting it slightly clockwise (when viewed from above), as mentioned here. That also makes sense with the alignment comparison data for the Technics arm.
   
  Anyway, I'll print the Stevenson protractor from vinyl engine and give it a try with the AT95E.
   
  cheers!


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## the_equalizer

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> Many years ago I was a DJ and borrowed a friends Jeep to take rental Technics 1200 DJ equipment to this Christmas Party. After the party we loaded everything into the Jeep and I headed back to my house at 1:00am. While on the freeway with the music at 9, I all of a sudden felt this big breeze through the side window. I just thought it was the wind. I arrived at my house and moments later the owner of the Jeep arrived to take his Jeep home. He looked at the back of his Jeep and the whole rear window had been knocked out. I guess while on the freeway the DJ coffin had slid back in such a way as to knock the rear window out! He started yelling, got into the Jeep and proceeded to kick all the equipment {rental equipment} out onto the cement. The DJ coffin landed on one end {six feet long} and balanced for a second before falling upside down onto the ground. Upon opening the lid, the platters were out but to my amazement after putting it all back together the Technics 1200 turntables worked perfect!


 


 I cringe when thinking of the turntables tumbling inside the DJ coffin! That's some hard core story on the rugedness of the 1200. I hope mine never has to go through such an ordeal, though!


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## Redcarmoose

My friend called me the next day and apologized so it was all good. I could not believe the needles didn't break off. I think 1200s are great! I actually ended up buying two soon after.


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## timothy77




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## Skylab




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## Clayton SF




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## calipilot227

It's a little dusty...

   
  Currently playing "Face the Music" (Electric Light Orchestra)
   

   
  Technics SL-QD33 (1983 model) with Audio Technica 3003 cartridge. Probably one of my best flea market purchases ($15).


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## Clayton SF

^ Nice. Love that UA logo on the LP label. You have a classic vintage turntable.


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## mill999red

nice setup,,,I would love to get a Black VPI Classic with SoundSmith cartridge


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## calipilot227

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> ^ Nice. Love that UA logo on the LP label. You have a classic vintage turntable.


 

 Haha thanks. Doesn't quite compare with yours though


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## calipilot227

Quote: 





the_equalizer said:


> Some drop dead gorgeous tables in this thread, maybe one day....
> 
> In the meantime here's mine. Cartridges include an AT440Mla and an AT95E mounted in individual headshells and aligned with the Technics arc protractor from Vinyl Engine. Tracking force is set to 1.4 grams on both using a Shure SFG-2 Stylus Force Gauge. My phono preamp is a DIY RJM Audio Very Simple Phono Stage, I've been using it for more than a year and I'm very happy with it so far.
> 
> ...


 

 Technics FTW!!!


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## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


>


 


  I love the little green led in the far left.


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## Ge03

Oracle Delphi mkIV, SME V, Dynavector 17D3 or Decca London Gold.


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## James3Toe

VPI Classic 3 and Dynavector XX-2MKII


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## Eee Pee

I always find myself looking at the picture of the Classic 3 in the Music Direct catalog a little longer than anything else.
   
  Then I look over at my HW19 Jr and giggle.


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## milosolo

There are some very nice turntable setups on here! Mine definitely falls into the utilitarian mid-fi category.


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## AuralRelations

Quote: 





milosolo said:


> There are some very nice turntable setups on here! Mine definitely falls into the utilitarian mid-fi category.


 
   
  Do I spy some Audioquest Colorado interconnects there? Always wondered if DBS made any difference. What do you think of such expensive ICs?


----------



## Lazerboy2000

@Clayton SF , what turntable is that? It's very beautiful and simple yet elegant. Dare I ask a price?


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





lazerboy2000 said:


> @Clayton SF , what turntable is that? It's very beautiful and simple yet elegant. Dare I ask a price?


 

 Looks like it's the Music Hall MMF 9.1...


----------



## milosolo

Quote: 





auralrelations said:


> Do I spy some Audioquest Colorado interconnects there? Always wondered if DBS made any difference. What do you think of such expensive ICs?


 

 Thanks for asking. I have a lot of AQ cables in my current system. These are 1m 72v Colorado's I picked up new on ebay for $412/pair. They are beautiful cables other than the clunky DBS box. My turntable is plugged into the Mav D1 that has the LM4562, LT1364 opamp upgrades and the WE396A/2C51 tube. This combination sounds* RICH and FULL *yet very articulate and sophisticated at the same time.
   
  Many people on here say that cables don't make a difference. Well I think they do. For example after reading this advice I purchased a set of BJC 1m interconnects for an A/B comparison with the AQ King Cobra. I'm still trying to figure out where to plug the BJC in so it can burn in for a while (maybe my cable box). I had to take them out of the system because they hurt my ears and this is against the moderately priced King Cobra. I'm sure the BJC will smooth out after some burn-in. BJC is local to me and I want to like them.
   
  Another interesting thing about the Colorado's is they really didn't require any burn in at all. They have subtly improved over time and I've heard this is a function of the DBS technology. I invested in the Colorado because this is the primary link from my turntable, iPod, CDP, and PC into my main speaker system and I've had good luck with AQ cables so far.


----------



## AuralRelations

[size=medium]Quote:


> Originally Posted by *milosolo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Many people on here say that cables don't make a difference. Well I think they do.






 I believe cables make a difference too. I can hear the subtle differences in presentation between my Kimber PJB and Synergistic Research cables. It's definitely hard to justify buying a cable that costs more than my turntable though! 
   ​[/size]


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Looks like it's the Music Hall MMF 9.1...


 
  @Lazerboy2000 Eee Pee is correct. I paid $1,700 with cartridge. http://goo.gl/LyNdY


----------



## zowie

Well, I have a bunch.  Here's the one I use most (although not with that cart).


----------



## zowie

a quick cell phone shot of my office TT


----------



## zowie

This one is for 45s,78s and early (mono) lps.   Kindly excuse another lousy cell phone shot.


----------



## rehabitat

That's an eclectic deck collection 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Nice Thorens, what model is it?  I love the simplicity of early idler transcription decks.


----------



## zowie

Quote: 





rehabitat said:


> That's an eclectic deck collection
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 The idler Thorens is a TD-111 with an Ortofon arm.  Same motor/belt/pully drive system as the TD-124, but single speed and different bearing/spindle/platter.  A real sleeper.


----------



## Gitbags

Some beautiful looking decks in here.
   
  I only recently got into vinyl so I thought I'd make a modest contribution to this thread.
   


 A 1980's rega plannar 3 with ortofon 2m blue.


----------



## Gatepc

@Gitbags How do you like that cartridge vs the one that came with the RP3?


----------



## Gitbags

Quote: 





gatepc said:


> @Gitbags How do you like that cartridge vs the one that came with the RP3?


 


  I don't feel I could give a fair comparison between the two. You see the cart that came with the deck (bought second hand) was an original grey body rega elys so it had a fair few hours on it and wasn't in the best condition. But if I had to I'd say I much prefer the 2m blue. To me it is more detailed, probably due to better instrument separation than the rega and has better bass. But considering the age of the rega cart I just wanted rid for safety's sake more than a upgrade.
   
  Oh and it looks much prettier in the headshell 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Cheers.


----------



## grokit

I just pulled the trigger on one of these, it should be a big improvement on my 2m Red and finally give my GCPH something to do as it's only 0.25 mV:


----------



## Clayton SF

^ Cool. I have one of those too but I haven't used it yet. I'm waiting for my DL-160 to wear down to a nub. I hate changing cartridges on my MMF-9.1. I almost yanked the leads off its solder and out of the arm the last time I replaced my cartridge.


----------



## dfkt




----------



## danska

Here is my baby. Needs to be cleaned!!! She just got upgraded to an Ortofon Jubilee, my first LOMC. Going to put one of my former carts for sale here today.
   
  It is a Linn LP12/Rega RB-700/Ortofon Jubilee [sometimes and previously the Orotfon 2M Bronze]/Hercules II- Running through a Jolida JD-9A.
   
  We have another LP12 here and two more Thorens TD-160s, but those are just sitting at the moment!


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





dfkt said:


>


 

 Love the glass platter!


----------



## baka1969

Quote:Originally Posted by Redcarmoose 


 "As far as source components go these are both old fashion and new. The turntable is made of many materials and is configured in many ways. They would have to be the oldest way of producing music in the home along with musical instruments. They end up being very fascinating for some and can be frustrating for many. Post your table photographs if you own one."



 if I ever got a 'table it'll be the Scout. I know I'm anal retentive but your LP needs a cleaning. lol


----------



## Redcarmoose

Good eyes! I don't think ever cleaner that one?


----------



## Borgbox

I picked up this AT-LP120 about two months ago because I had been itching for a good deck ever since I moved out of my dads house 3 years ago. He had an incredible stereo system and about 500 LPs he would let us listen to whenever we wanted.
   
  It's a cheap table, as I am of few means. However, for its price it performs very well and has a few nice features.


----------



## Redcarmoose

those are not cheap tables


----------



## Borgbox

Certainly didn't feel like it when I paid for it! lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I made sure I would save for something with certain basic attributes like interchangeable headshells, strobe, and I needed an internal phono stage (for now).
  Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> those are not cheap tables


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





baka1969 said:


> if I ever got a 'table it'll be the Scout.


 

  Make sure to read about comparisons between the Scout and Classic.  I wanted to freshen up my front end, and wanting to stick with the VPI brand the Scout was considered until I started reading up on the both of them.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah I would go for a Classic as well. I have a ScoutMaster, which I really like a lot, but if I were to get a VPI now I would get a Classic. Not because of anything I do not like about the ScoutMaster - I have been completely happy with it and I think it's an excellent deck. But from all I have read, the Classic is even better.


----------



## baka1969

Quote:Originally Posted by Skylab 

 "Yeah I would go for a Classic as well. I have a ScoutMaster, which I really like a lot, but if I were to get a VPI now I would get a Classic. Not because of anything I do not like about the ScoutMaster - I have been completely happy with it and I think it's an excellent deck. But from all I have read, the Classic is even better."


 Going back to vinyl isn't in my immediate future. The thought of how expensive it would be to repurchase my library in LPs is one reason I'm putting it off. Also if it were a choice between the Scoutmaster and Classic I'd seriously think about the Classic. The Scout, though, is quite a bit less expensive than the Classic. Even the Scout II is a bit cheaper. Since I won't have an unlimited budget the excellent Scout would have to do.


----------



## Skylab

Ross, Pink Floyd was MADE to be played on Vinyl


----------



## Audio Addict

This is a great thread. I can't believe I just saw it today for the first time. I have a VPI too but need to get some pictures up to the quality of this thread.


----------



## grokit

To go along with my upcoming cartridge upgrade, I just ordered a new belt that I didn't need:
   
"LP Gear enhanced replacement belt for the Denon DP300F turntable for longer playing life, better grip and torque thus enabling rotational accuracy and improved flywheel effect."
   
  Whatever. The stock belt will now be the backup.


----------



## Eee Pee

You're going to get a fresher better grip, so you'll have even better rotational accuracy.


----------



## calipilot227

Seeing as my TT is direct drive, the whole concept of having to change a belt is somewhat alien to me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm not really sure which one is better though (direct vs belt drive).


----------



## scottlf

Brand new, and I'm loving it! VPI Scout II with a Grado Sonata Reference cartridge. The cartridge is played in from my previous turntable, so the whole thing is just humming along.


----------



## Clayton SF

Pro-Ject Xperience Classic Olivewood with Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 cartridge and Bren1 record clamp


----------



## palmfish

New member here!
   
  Thought I'd contribute...
   
  Pioneer PL-707
   

   
  Shure M97xE


----------



## Borgbox

Nice cart. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





palmfish said:


> New member here!
> 
> Thought I'd contribute...


----------



## Clayton SF

^ Fantastic LP that Whipped Cream & Other Delights.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> Pro-Ject Xperience Classic Olivewood with Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 cartridge and Bren1 record clamp


 

 This is such a nice looking deck that I had to bump it to the next page.


----------



## jeust0999

Clayton, my man, you have good taste.


----------



## baka1969

Quote:Originally Posted by Skylab 

 "Ross, Pink Floyd was MADE to be played on Vinyl"


 Speaking of which, I wonder how the new remasters will turn out? Seriously though if/when I can set aside the sizable budget to go analog I really want the Scout or Scout II. My problem will be matching the cart and phono pre with it as I fall on the more analytic than musical side of preferences.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> ^ Fantastic LP that Whipped Cream & Other Delights.


 


  I agree! My dad had it when I was growing up and I used to play it all the time. This one is a new 180 gram remaster.
   
  That carbon fiber tonearm of yours would look good over it...


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





grokit said:


> This is such a nice looking deck that I had to bump it to the next page.


 
  Quote: 





jeust0999 said:


> Clayton, my man, you have good taste.


 
   
  Thanks to all. And a wallet that's about to create mutiny.
   
  Quote: 





palmfish said:


> I agree! My dad had it when I was growing up and I used to play it all the time. This one is a new 180 gram remaster.
> That carbon fiber tonearm of yours would look good over it...


 

 I've only heard the original LP. It's not in the best shape but sounds better than the CD. I should pick up that 180-gram remaster. Brass instruments sound the best on vinyl. It's as if The Tijuana Brass was actually in the room with me.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





scottlf said:


> Brand new, and I'm loving it! VPI Scout II with a Grado Sonata Reference cartridge.


 
  Sweetness!
   
  Being a Sonata owner myself, I'm curious what phono stage you've paired it with?


----------



## scottlf

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Sweetness!
> 
> Being a Sonata owner myself, I'm curious what phono stage you've paired it with?


 

 An NAD PP-2i. Nothing fancy, but it definitely gets the job done. What are your experiences with phono stages and this cartridge?


----------



## Audio Addict

Quote: 





audio addict said:


> This is a great thread. I can't believe I just saw it today for the first time. I have a VPI too but need to get some pictures up to the quality of this thread.


----------



## Clayton SF

_*^ Holy S!*_
  It looks like a secret weapon.
  Does this thing fly and evade radar signals?
  Beautiful...


----------



## Eee Pee

I've had mine for many years, in fact I just looked at the receipt and it says 8/27/98, and I got it for $331!  I think the guy rang me up for a Prestige.  
   
  Back then while I was in college I paired it with an Anthem Integrated 1, the baby Sonic Frontiers company.  I used it with speakers.  Then I borrowed a Sonic Frontiers phono amp and that set the standard.  Then I went to a Rega Brio integrated, and just listened to the music instead of worrying about equipment.  The Brio powered B&W 302 speakers and I was loving it.
   
  Now, I'm considering a PS Audio GCPH.  I keep reading it's great, and great for the money, and the next step up is considerably more money.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> _*^ Holy S!*_


 


  Seriously!  
   
  Wow.  Nice!


----------



## Audio Addict

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Seriously!
> 
> Wow.  Nice!


 
    
  Quote:


clayton sf said:


> _*^ Holy S!*_
> It looks like a secret weapon.
> Does this thing fly and evade radar signals?
> Beautiful...


 

 Thank you for the compliment and it does sound great as well.  I thank AudioGon for bringing the entire country to your doorstep.


----------



## Skylab

That is a beautiful deck Steve. Very nice. We both have the same cartridge but you have the much nicer TT.


----------



## Audio Addict

Quote:


skylab said:


> That is a beautiful deck Steve. Very nice. We both have the same cartridge but you have the much nicer TT.


 


 Thank you.  The cartridge is fantastic.  I am sure it sound just as great on your table.
   
  Since I picked the table up off AudioGon, I got a used Benz Ruby with the table.  Constantly had the table cutting out.  thought it was more in the arm and sent the arm back to VPI and they rewired it but it didn't solve the issue.  I decided to upgrade to the LPS and haven't looked back.  I really enjoy this cartridge.


----------



## Stevtt

Those were a couple of fantastic looking turntables.


----------



## CrazyRay




----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





			
				CrazyRay said:
			
		

>


 

 Is that a Bang & Olufsen Beogram on the bottom shelf?


----------



## Eee Pee

Gyrodecks are so mesmerizing to watch spin.


----------



## CrazyRay

Yes it is calipilot227,

 1) J.A.Mitchell GyroDec, SME 309 tonearm w/ Mark Levinson Carnegie One phono cartridge,

 2) Empire 698 turntable with a Shure V15 Type 4 cartridge.

 3) Bang & Olufsen RX2 turntable with MMC4 cartridge


----------



## BattleBrat




----------



## CrazyRay

That last deck looks familiar!


----------



## BattleBrat

Yeah, it was in A Clockwork Orange, IMO the transcriptors is a cheap POS, the MARK II (available now!) is $4000 but worth every penny as it is twice the TT as the MK1. The TNT MK1 is better then both, Modular, Upgradeable, I can bring that beast upto an HRX if I wanted, but all the newer components are silver and I'm trying to keep it black. It has no arm currently, I'm going for a Trans-Fi T3 but it's $1,200 and I'm collecting portable gear ATM so it'll be awhile.


----------



## Uncle Erik

The Transcriptor isn't cheap junk - they're nicely made. However, they're not the best deck.

Totally agree about the Gyrodec, though. It was entrancing. Then I had to go and upgrade mine to an Orbe. The Orbe platter is better, but sometimes I'm tempted to sell it and put the Gyrodec platter back on. The spinning counterweights certainly look better, and it sounds plenty good.


----------



## BattleBrat

The new one's aren't, the old ones (like I have) are.


----------



## Eaglecreek

A couple Im using here in the PC audio rig  are the Revox B 790 and the Mitsubishi DP-EC 20


----------



## Hero Kid

Subscribed. Remind me to take some photos of my own turntable to post here in a few days!


----------



## Clayton SF

Okay it's not my turntable and it probably is not Marilyn's but I thought I'd post it anyway. That really looks like she's playing wax.


----------



## Borgbox

Lets get some more turntables posted, guys!


----------



## jtaylor991

My Dual CS5000 turntable that was given to me after the owner (next door neighbor) passed away. I also was given a JVC R-X500 computer controlled receiver and a pair of Polk Audio Monitor 10s.
   
  This was before my Head-Fi days but I know what I have now. This turntable has, according to the service guy at my Vinyl Renaissance store, a $500 cartridge that isn't made anymore. That on a $400-$500 turntable, for free!, equals happy me!
   
  I wanted the cartridge replaced in case this one was in terrible shape (lots of pops and clicks on 1st notch on my amp on mute, bad sign!), and I thought the stylus had broken off when it jumped a few times. He said all it needs is a good cleaning and a new belt. Awesome!
   
  Jelly?


----------



## Borgbox

Wow, looks like the predecessor to my Shure m97xe cart. That's a gorgeous little set up you have there!


----------



## jtaylor991

Thanks! And my cartridge is $500 where yours is around $60. I think predecessor is a little off 
  
  Quote: 





borgbox said:


> Wow, looks like the predecessor to my Shure m97xe cart. That's a gorgeous little set up you have there!


----------



## Borgbox

lol predecessor as in it came before mine, I certainly don't expect my $60 cart to rival a $500 cart just cause the latter is older 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The design evolution intrigues me.
  Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> Thanks! And my cartridge is $500 where yours is around $60. I think predecessor is a little off


----------



## jtaylor991

Yeah. I comprehended that as predecessor equaling of lower quality


----------



## rehabitat

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> My Dual CS5000 turntable that was given to me after the owner (next door neighbor) passed away. I also was given a JVC R-X500 computer controlled receiver and a pair of Polk Audio Monitor 10s.
> 
> This was before my Head-Fi days but I know what I have now. This turntable has, according to the service guy at my Vinyl Renaissance store, a $500 cartridge that isn't made anymore. That on a $400-$500 turntable, for free!, equals happy me!
> 
> ...


 

 That's a dream score.  The cart is worth $300+ second-hand and the table is probably that or more too.  I have a Shure V15V on one of my decks and it's a legendary tracker.


----------



## sterling1

The Shure V15VMR is simply awesome. There may not be another cartridge out there  that can track as well. The Shure was as honestly crafted as it was priced. I prey Shure will produce it again someday. I've got two of em, but only one stylus. As paired with my Sony PS-4750 I have not heard more detail in my records from what I've auditioned so far.


----------



## Uncle Erik

I also hope Shure puts it back into production. Vinyl is selling well again, so if that keeps up, Shure's beancounters might decide it's a good idea.

I love the DL103/Cinemag combo, but the Shure is the only cartridge that would tempt me to change.


----------



## Redcarmoose

Found a V-15 Type IV (introduced in 1978) on a turntable for 25 bucks in a thrift store. My best find ever.


----------



## Skylab

Shure didn't discontinue the V15VMR because it wasn't selling well. It was. They discontinued it due to a supplier no longer being willing or able to supply them with a key component. Pity. But as such I'm not sure it's likely it will come back. I sold mine some while back, and kinda wish I hadn't. It's not that I would use it on either of my turntables, both of which have much better cartridges in them, but I wish I had one on ice...just because...


----------



## jtaylor991

That really sucks that they stopped making it. This cartridge and turntable, hooked up to a piece of crap 15yr old Sony receiver that either has almost no bass presence in comparison to my JVC I mentioned (the Sony is my Dad's), or it just clips in the low end when I push it to and a hair above normal listening volumes (for me, it's different for everyone in some way) when driving the Polk Monitor 10s, with terrible speaker placement, still made my dad's dirty records sound like the band was in the room (from what I remember).
   
  If this cartridge is that good, I'd buy another one when this one wore out if I could afford it, and if I could justify the price. If it was like $300-$350, it'd be bought again in a heartbeat. If this wears out, the record store guy, in which I totally trust his experience, says I should just get a new one instead of replace the stylus, and said a Grado Gold could be as good, and he preferred Grado to Shure for cartridges in general anyway.
   
  The mentioned speaker placement:
   

   
  My Dad's record collection on the left on those shelves. I have changed this a ton since I took this pic BTW. I put the turntable on top of the speaker because of cable length and I know how stupid that is, but it seemed to be almost invincible to vibration since I sonically couldn't hear any flaws. No needle jumping or anything. Then again, that was with the old crap Sony receiver with virtually no bass, hence the lack of vibration probably.


----------



## Eee Pee

Saw this today and had to share.  Pretty slick.


----------



## Borgbox

^ Daaaaanng where do you go to see one of those?


----------



## Borgbox

^ Daaaanng where do you go to see one of those?


----------



## Clayton SF

^ So that's how you are supposed to play a Quadraphonic record.


----------



## Skylab

Four tonearms, so four cartridges, so four different sounds. Wow. Nice.


----------



## jtaylor991

Could you put them all on at the same time and have 4 outputs for quick A/Bing? Or would the weight of all four arms be too much?
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Four tonearms, so four cartridges, so four different sounds. Wow. Nice.


----------



## jtaylor991

Anyone know where to get a legit Dual CS5000 belt? The one listed to be paired with it on Needledoctor is WRONG (pissed!). Too wide. The Dual one I have now is much narrow/skinnier. The new one fits, but is too wide/fat to let the platter turn at the right speed, so the needle never drops 'cause the turntable measures the rotational speed before it drops, am I wrong? I read that somewhere...
   
  It even looks right. I stopped the turntable while on to look at it and let it get back up to speed. Is that bad for it since it's a belt drive? I only did it for a second or so because I thought it might be bad for it :S


----------



## Skylab

jtaylor991 said:


> Could you put them all on at the same time and have 4 outputs for quick A/Bing? Or would the weight of all four arms be too much?



That's a bad idea, would be bad for the record.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Four tonearms, so four cartridges, so four different sounds. Wow. Nice.


 
   
  And I thought that tube rolling could be expensive. Can you just imagine cartrolling? Or 4 of the same cartridge and you're set.


----------



## cifani090

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> And I thought that tube rolling could be expensive. Can you just imagine cartrolling? Or 4 of the same cartridge and you're set.


 






 Its probably very expensive along with his Vintagerolling as well.


----------



## jtaylor991

Thought so, just thought it was worth asking. 4x the wear lol.
   
  So, legit Dual CS5000 belt anybody??
  
  Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> Could you put them all on at the same time and have 4 outputs for quick A/Bing? Or would the weight of all four arms be too much?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> Thought so, just thought it was worth asking. 4x the wear lol.
> 
> So, legit Dual CS5000 belt anybody??


 

 This looks pretty legit:
   
  http://www.lpgear.com/product/DUALCS5000.html


----------



## jtaylor991

Thanks. $30 bucks though?!?! Sheesh...
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> This looks pretty legit:
> 
> http://www.lpgear.com/product/DUALCS5000.html


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





borgbox said:


> ^ Daaaaanng where do you go to see one of those?


 


  The Silent Running Audio website.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I was curious about their shelves until I saw the surrounding equipment, then found a price online.  Woooo weeeee.
   
  http://www.silentrunningaudio.com/home.htm


----------



## Hero Kid

My Thorens TD-160 MKII with RB300 tonearm and Monster Cable Alpha 1 MC cartridge.
   
   




  Pictured: Luxman L-5 Amplifier, same turntable as above (obviously ), LEAK 2060 Speaker (the other one is on the other side of the room), Audile Enterprises Australia Phono Stage, Marantz CD-63 Mk II and chillin' on the top my Audeze LCD-2s. I normally listen to my vinyl rig through speakers but I also have a Mac Mini with a SSD and external HDD full of FLAC which isn't pictured that I use as my primary source. I still need to buy a DAC and do away with the CD player but that is all in the pipeline at the moment.


----------



## rehabitat

Nice pics HK, and I like the look of your vintage setup. I've never seen those Leaks; are they some kind of planar speaker?
   
  My humble rig, for the moment.  I have a couple of Garrard projects on the backburner, and Lab 80 and following that a 401.  One of these days I'll sell the Rega, which has speed stability issues 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 although I may keep the Grace G707/ShureV15V


----------



## cifani090

Im getting a bunch of free vinyl, and i need a turntable. Their are no good ones on my craigslist


----------



## baka1969

rehabitat said:


> Nice pics HK, and I like the look of your vintage setup. I've never seen those Leaks; are they some kind of planar speaker?
> 
> My humble rig, for the moment.  I have a couple of Garrard projects on the backburner, and Lab 80 and following that a 401.  One of these days I'll sell the Rega, which has speed stability issues
> 
> ...




Do you think getting Rega's external PSU would help with the speed stability issues?


----------



## rehabitat

[quote name="baka1969" [/quote]Do you think getting Rega's external PSU would help with the speed stability issues?[/quote]

No not on it's own it won't. The problem is the way the motor is mounted to the plinth with a rubber band, which is to isolate motor noise. An upgrade to a quieter motor with a direct mounting, or an alternative isolated mounting system are the only solutions. I don't think it's worth the trouble or the cash IMO, esp considering the other decks I have in the pipeline


----------



## mikerobe

Can't resist.  From near to far... cue Grover, y'all!
   
  Near:

  Far:


----------



## Clayton SF

OMG! That is fantastic! Thanks for this.
My new Wallpapers.


----------



## Eee Pee

Cued!


----------



## baka1969

@mikerobe. Now THAT'S a clean record and cart!


----------



## ardilla

Dual CS-5000 (not my picture - but same player)


----------



## jtaylor991

Awesome, looks like mine! Do you know where to get a new belt for it? I bet you have done a couple of belt replacements on it. And where could I buy a dust cover? Mine came without one, unfortunately  but hey I got it for free with a Shure V15V-MR from the neighbors! 
  
  Quote: 





ardilla said:


> Dual CS-5000 (not my picture - but same player)


----------



## shipsupt

Quote: 





ardilla said:


> Dual CS-5000 (not my picture - but same player)


 


  That's a classy looking table...


----------



## Skylab

Jtaylor991, both belts and new dust covers for the CS-5000 are currently for sale on eBay. Belts are cheap; dust covers less so.

Nice looking TT the CS-5000!


----------



## Redcarmoose

Amazing photography and table!
  
  Quote: 





mikerobe said:


> Can't resist.  From near to far... cue Grover, y'all!
> 
> Near:
> 
> Far:


----------



## mikerobe

I'll take the complement on the pics, thank you.  I am meticulous about cleaning everything (around my TT, at least), but that photo was taken while the table was turning.  I wonder if that helped with the reflection (took a few tries to get the pink near where I wanted).
   
  The table, aside from the upgrade to the Blue Point 2, I have nothing to do with... Sumiko/Pro-Ject built that!  I thought it was a great introductory TT to mid/hi-fi world (#2 cart ups the ante a bit!).


----------



## Eee Pee




----------



## grokit

I made a composite of *mikerobe*'s great pics...
   

   
  It actually makes a pretty nice wallpaper if the monitor isn't too big


----------



## Clayton SF

^ There's no dust! Wow. I've never seen a cleaner stylus, cartridge, and grooves.


----------



## Stevtt

It does make a nice background


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





eee pee said:


>


 

 Nice! You've been hiding that tt from us. Is that a Grado cartridge?


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> Nice! You've been hiding that tt from us. Is that a Grado cartridge?


 

 That's not true, post #12 had a picture of it.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  That is indeed a Grado, a Sonata with the receipt dated 8/27/98.  13 years ago... what was I doing 13 years ago?  I can't remember.
   
  I remembered.  Drinking and listening to records.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> That's not true, post #12 had a picture of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 LOL. Yes. 13 years ago--drinking and listening to records. Nothing's changed, no doubt! Some old same old.


----------



## Skylab

Here is a pic of the highly modded Pioneer PL-530 I just got for the vintage rig. Mounted a Clearaudio Maestro and she's sounding great!


----------



## Eee Pee

Too bad you can't plug that into the Redwine AE!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Do you like the Maestro?


----------



## Skylab

LOL! Yes, I like the Maetsro a lot. Great sound for a MM cartridge. My main vinyl rig is Benz LP-S on a VPI Scoutmaster, but the Maestro / Pioneer combo is pretty darned good sounding, for about 1/6 th the price


----------



## Clayton SF

Wow. The woodwork has a nice sheen to it and I especially love those bat toggle switches on the right-hand corner of the plinth. It will compliment the wood panels on your Leben.


----------



## grokit

I dig the strobe, that's a hard to find feature these days.


----------



## eimis

Nothing fancy yet.....


----------



## the_equalizer

Very similar to my own setup, eimis. I like it very much!


----------



## liamstrain

The only pic I have it at the moment... Unfortunately, bad cell phone, and the McIntoshes were the subject.  BUt top left, A Dual 1019 in United Audio walnut case, Grado green cartridge.
   

   
  It needs a minor tune up... speeds sound a touch off.


----------



## rehabitat

Nice. I found a Dual 1210 thrown out recently, in a timber case with a built in amp.  It's in good cosmetic condition (perspex cover too), however the speed and auto functions are a bit messed up but I reckon a thorough clean and lube and she'll be up to scratch again.  Old idlers are cool (c:


----------



## Hi-fi Wigwammer

Upgraded my cartridge yesterday. Out with the Shelter 901 and in with a Transfiguration Orpheus.
   




   
   
   
  It simply sounds astonishing. I'd rank it right up there with the incredible Audio Note IO Gold.


----------



## jtaylor991

/bump
   
  So, I've been wondering, what's the big difference between different turntables besides the vibration absorbtion and the tonearm? Some may have better motors that are more reliable for speed, but that's not a very big difference IMO. And i'm not talking direct vs belt either. What makes a turntable much higher quality than another? It seems that the cartridge would make 90% of the difference between different tables.


----------



## jr41

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> So, I've been wondering, what's the big difference between different turntables besides the vibration absorbtion and the tonearm?


 
   
  I recommend reading the turntable reviews in the following guide to vinyl playback (the whole guide is a good read if you're new to vinyl). Each review is of a different turntable design and so should give you a good idea of the range of solutions to vinyl playback available and the pros and cons of each.
   
  I had a skepticism of turn tables costing 10s of thousands of pounds (not that I could ever afford one, so it's something of a mute point!), until I read the reviews in this guide. It really gave me an appreciation of the challenges of accurate reproduction of sound from a record and the lengths (i.e. cost) required to go someway to solving them.
   
  http://www.avguide.com/buyers-guide/the-absolute-soundhi-fi-guide-vinyl-playback-0


----------



## jtaylor991

Thank you! I am new to vinyl, so I'll have to read up 
  
  Quote: 





jr41 said:


> I recommend reading the turntable reviews in the following guide to vinyl playback (the whole guide is a good read if you're new to vinyl). Each review is of a different turntable design and so should give you a good idea of the range of solutions to vinyl playback available and the pros and cons of each.
> 
> I had a skepticism of turn tables costing 10s of thousands of pounds (not that I could ever afford one, so it's something of a mute point!), until I read the reviews in this guide. It really gave me an appreciation of the challenges of accurate reproduction of sound from a record and the lengths (i.e. cost) required to go someway to solving them.
> 
> http://www.avguide.com/buyers-guide/the-absolute-soundhi-fi-guide-vinyl-playback-0


----------



## MorbidToaster

I was recently given a Pioneer PL518. I'll snap a picture tonight. It's in excellent shape but desperately needs a new cartridge.


----------



## zhenya

Here's my modest setup.


----------



## bacobits

My P5


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





zhenya said:


> Here's my modest setup.


 

 That's pretty. I like the blue lights in your photo. Is the lit up speed slider standard? I don't remember seeing that before.
   
  Sucks that Techniques (Panasonic) stopped production. I wanted one bad but couldn't find a minty one for a reasonable price. I ended up with a vintage Pioneer and am happy with it, but still have a hole in my heart for the 1200.


----------



## jtiis




----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





bacobits said:


> My P5


 


  Nice, Musicdirect tempted me with a P5, now that they're on sale, but I remained strong and didn't get one.  I need to see if Rega is doing a RP5 update first.


----------



## zhenya

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> That's pretty. I like the blue lights in your photo. Is the lit up speed slider standard? I don't remember seeing that before.
> 
> Sucks that Techniques (Panasonic) stopped production. I wanted one bad but couldn't find a minty one for a reasonable price. I ended up with a vintage Pioneer and am happy with it, but still have a hole in my heart for the 1200.


 


  Thanks.  This isn't a regular 1200, but a 1210M5G which I don't think they made for very long.  Besides some dj-specific improvements, it also sports a slightly nicer tonearm and things like oxygen free wiring.  I've upgraded it with a KAB tonearm damper and mat.  It's really a nice turntable - far better than the Music Hall it replaced, and I don't feel like it's going to break every time I breathe on it.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'd really like to find one and use it as just a music turntable. I owned a pair when I was DJing that I just wore out.
  
  Quote: 





zhenya said:


> Thanks.  This isn't a regular 1200, but a 1210M5G which I don't think they made for very long.  Besides some dj-specific improvements, it also sports a slightly nicer tonearm and things like oxygen free wiring.  I've upgraded it with a KAB tonearm damper and mat.  It's really a nice turntable - far better than the Music Hall it replaced, and I don't feel like it's going to break every time I breathe on it.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





zhenya said:


> Thanks.  This isn't a regular 1200, but a 1210M5G which I don't think they made for very long.  Besides some dj-specific improvements, it also sports a slightly nicer tonearm and things like oxygen free wiring.  I've upgraded it with a KAB tonearm damper and mat.  It's really a nice turntable - far better than the Music Hall it replaced, and I don't feel like it's going to break every time I breathe on it.


 

 I looked at the KAB's quite a bit last year and almost bought one. They are very nice - your 1210 especially.


----------



## bacobits

Eee Pee,
  it is now an "RP6"
  See here> http://www.decoaudio.com/deco_audio_turntables2.html
  Looks like a glorified RP3, no RB700 arm.
   
  This is why all the P5's are on sale at a really nice price.
  I would go for the P5 on sale for sure.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





bacobits said:


> Eee Pee,
> it is now an "RP6"
> See here> http://www.decoaudio.com/deco_audio_turntables2.html
> Looks like a glorified RP3, no RB700 arm.
> ...


 






   
  See if I can those pictures to show here... cause I like it!
   

   

   

   
   
   
  Quote: 





> The RP6 is the very latest Rega turntable due for launch very soon. Like their cheaper RP3 it uses a double sided chassis brace between arm and bearing but in this instance it is made from aluminium rather than plastic. The bearing hub is also made from aluminium and supports a double thickness glass platter. The plinth is finished in a variety of high gloss paint finishes, including Black (pictured here), White, Green and Blue.​  ​ The RP6 is due to be launched around the middle of December 2011 and is anticipated to cost £800 excluding cartridge.​


 
   
  Looks to be about $1240 then.
   
  Thanks for the info bacobits!  Funny name.


----------



## calipilot227

Can't quite compare to the Rega, but I picked this up today:
   

   
  Pioneer PL-518, Stanton 680 cartridge, Technics 1200 headshell. Not too bad for $50.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Well, no need to post my pictures anymore. I was just about to take some too. I got a PL518 in amazing shape as a gift from my uncle. I was actually going to ask for cartridge recommendations here. Only thing (besides a decent Phono stage) I need...
   
  Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Pioneer PL-518, Stanton 680 cartridge, Technics 1200 headshell. Not too bad for $50.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Well, no need to post my pictures anymore. I was just about to take some too. I got a PL518 in amazing shape as a gift from my uncle. I was actually going to ask for cartridge recommendations here. Only thing (besides a decent Phono stage) I need...


 

 Nothing wrong with two (or more) photos of a good vintage deck 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was considering the Shure M97, but I really like the sound of the Stanton 680. I think it's still in production (I could probably use a new stylus).


----------



## sterling1

I've got a Sony PS-4750. I purchased this manual TT new back in 1978 or thereabouts. It is fitted with a Shure V15 type V-MR cartridge. I like it. Using this player recently, I've discovered I cannot distinguish vinyl from SACD, except for the occasional pop. I guess that tells me it's set up properly. At any rate, I mainly use this turntable today, connected to an X-FI HD, to digitize vinyl. And, since I cannot distinguish my vinyl collection from SACD, I just can't see the point in replacing it with anything out there today. The very smart design of this unit and it's performance to price ratio inspired me to look into Sony for other electronics I needed too, which, as you can see from my signature, led me to a home theatre mainly comprised of Sony components from their ES and Professional Audio lines.


----------



## Redcarmoose

That table looks so cool. Enjoy!
  Quote: 





sterling1 said:


> I've got a Sony PS-4750. I purchased this manual TT new back in 1978 or thereabouts. It is fitted with a Shure V15 type V-MR cartridge. I like it. Using this player recently I've discovered I cannot distinguish vinyl from SACD, except for the occasional pop. I mainly use this turntable today connected to an X-FI HD to digitize vinyl. I have no interest in selling or replacing this TT with anything on the market today. Since I cannot distinguish my vinyl collection from SACD, I can't see the point in replacing it. The very smart design of this unit and it's performance to price ratio inspired me to look into Sony for other electronics I needed, which, as you can see from my signature, led me to a home theatre mainly comprised of Sony components from their ES and Professional Audio lines.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Another PL518. A gift I got recently, but it needs a new stylus and most likely I'll just replace the entire cartridge. Also have no decent Phono stage. It'll be some work and spending but it should be working soon.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Another PL518. A gift I got recently, but it needs a new stylus and most likely I'll just replace the entire cartridge. Also have no decent Phono stage. It'll be some work and spending but it should be working soon.


 



 I nice combination for your turntable would be a Musical Fidelity V-LPS phono preamp and Shure M97xE cartridge. $99 and $53 respectively from Amazon.com. Both have come down in price quite a bit since I got mine a year ago.


----------



## Randall DZM

Mine, I enjoy it even though it's so cheap.  Any suggestions on how to make this one better? It's the AT-LP60


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Another PL518. A gift I got recently, but it needs a new stylus and most likely I'll just replace the entire cartridge. Also have no decent Phono stage. It'll be some work and spending but it should be working soon.


 

 What cartridge are you using? I just pulled the trigger on a new stylus for my Stanton 680EL (late-1970's model). It sounds a little worn (some distortion in the upper-midrange on records that I know are in pristine condition).
   

  
  Quote: 





palmfish said:


> I nice combination for your turntable would be a Musical Fidelity V-LPS phono preamp and Shure M97xE cartridge. $99 and $53 respectively from Amazon.com. Both have come down in price quite a bit since I got mine a year ago.


 

 I'm on the fence about the Shure M97. I have read that the Stanton 680 series is superior, but mine is old and I wonder if it might be a good upgrade. Would you say it's worth taking a chance?


----------



## MorbidToaster

I need to investigate a little more and see if I just want to slap a new stylus on the AT cartridge it has. I'll take it to a shop in town soon and see what I actually want to do.
  
  I was a big Stanton fan when I was DJing so we'll have to see after I do a bit more research on this particular table.
  Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> What cartridge are you using? I just pulled the trigger on a new stylus for my Stanton 680EL (late-1970's model). It sounds a little worn (some distortion in the upper-midrange on records that I know are in pristine condition).


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> What cartridge are you using? I just pulled the trigger on a new stylus for my Stanton 680EL (late-1970's model). It sounds a little worn (some distortion in the upper-midrange on records that I know are in pristine condition).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I have no experience with Stantons. By reputation, they are rugged and built like tanks for DJ use. I owned a Shure V15 Type V back in the day and loved it. The M97 sounds great to me too, although it doesn't appear to be built as well as the old models. At $50, I think the M97 is a screaming bargain .


----------



## MorbidToaster

Their motors are _ridiculous..._It's like Play/Pause on a CD player.
   
  Quote:


palmfish said:


> I have no experience with Stantons. *By reputation, they are rugged and built like tanks for DJ use*. I owned a Shure V15 Type V back in the day and loved it. The M97 sounds great to me too, although it doesn't appear to be built as well as the old models. At $50, I think the M97 is a screaming bargain .


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> I have no experience with Stantons. By reputation, they are rugged and built like tanks for DJ use. I owned a Shure V15 Type V back in the day and loved it. The M97 sounds great to me too, although it doesn't appear to be built as well as the old models. At $50, I think the M97 is a screaming bargain .


 
   
  For the record, I was referring to the Stanton 680 cartridge in my PL-518. I've heard the Shure V15 is an amazing cart, but it's too bad they don't make it anymore. I'll have to find somewhere that will let me return the M97 if I don't like it.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> For the record, I was referring to the Stanton 680 cartridge in my PL-518. I've heard the Shure V15 is an amazing cart, but it's too bad they don't make it anymore. I'll have to find somewhere that will let me return the M97 if I don't like it.


 

 I know. Stanton cartridges have the same reputation - you'd never want to scratch with a Shure...
   
  As for returning the M97, I don't think you have to worry about that. It's really very good.


----------



## sharkz

The Shure is a very good cartridge. I recently replaced an older Stanton with one and it seemed like a definite improvement.
   
  I also recently stepped up from a $30 Behringer preamp to a V-LPS with Pyramid PS. That was an even bigger improvement. I can clearly hear the extension in both directions and while clicks and pops are still present on dirty records, the background noise has been reduced. In my mind, it was definitely worth the improvements gained for the money I paid.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





sharkz said:


> The Shure is a very good cartridge. I recently replaced an older Stanton with one and it seemed like a definite improvement.
> 
> I also recently stepped up from a $30 Behringer preamp to a V-LPS with Pyramid PS. That was an even bigger improvement. I can clearly hear the extension in both directions and while clicks and pops are still present on dirty records, the background noise has been reduced. In my mind, it was definitely worth the improvements gained for the money I paid.


 

 I'm currently using a Sony GX800ES receiver (1994/1995). Would I benefit from using a different phonostage? The built-in one seems to be pretty good.
   
  (Sorry, I should probably just create a new thread. Back to the photos!)


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> I'm currently using a Sony GX800ES receiver (1994/1995). Would I benefit from using a different phonostage? The built-in one seems to be pretty good.
> 
> (Sorry, I should probably just create a new thread. Back to the photos!)


 


  I'm a big sceptic of phono stage hype. All it needs to do is step up the output of the turntable without coloring. Pretty simple and I'm sure your Sony does a perfectly acceptable job.
   
  You can always try it out and look into an outboard preamp if you don't like the results.


----------



## jtaylor991

And the DAC is supposed to convert 0s and 1s to an analog audio signal without coloration, and the amplifier is supposed to make that line level signal audible and nothing else yada, it never really turns out to do what it was meant to do in theory. Just sayin'
  I find it funny that all this stuff actually has differences where it supposedly shouldn't lol, theory =/= practice...
  
  Quote: 





palmfish said:


> I'm a big sceptic of phono stage hype. All it needs to do is step up the output of the turntable without coloring. Pretty simple and I'm sure your Sony does a perfectly acceptable job.
> 
> You can always try it out and look into an outboard preamp if you don't like the results.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> And the DAC is supposed to convert 0s and 1s to an analog audio signal without coloration, and the amplifier is supposed to make that line level signal audible and nothing else yada, it never really turns out to do what it was meant to do in theory. Just sayin'
> I find it funny that all this stuff actually has differences where it supposedly shouldn't lol, theory =/= practice...


 
  Yeah, I hear ya. I don't pretend to understand it either. I just try to get the big stuff right and don't sweat the small stuff.


----------



## Redcarmoose

Well, just remember what a phonostage does it adds back an eq and amplifies the signal. The RIAA curve is done and if you think they are all the same you should listen to a couple of different ones. I have tried lots and you need to both have a cartridge and turntable which will be a pure enough source to tell in the first place. Then an amp and headphone that will show you the differences. Just like different amps, each phonostage has it's own character, let alone ways to load and do the RIAA curve. So there are really a lot of variables to contend with. Many believe what is important up stream is more important than what is down stream, the phonostage is pretty close to the start. I had a Stanton preamp/phonostage that was the major one used in radio stations in the 1970s and at $85.00 it was a good starter. I switched to a better one and it resulted in more authority and warmth. I later borrowed phonostages to demo, just still looking for improvement. There is also a need to match your needle to the phonostage, not just mm or mc matching but getting the character of your needle/cartridge setup to match the character of the phonostage. Also some phonostages put out more signal some less, some phonostages put out more ground hum than others. All phonostages made have ground hum if you turn up the volume enough with no needle down playing a record. Getting the blackest background is a result of a lesser ground hum. Each has different levels of distortion too. Some phonostages sound thin and some bass heavy, so it is finding the one with the sound signature your into and the one in your price point which matches all your other gear correctly.
   
  As you try different one each has a different soundstage with speakers as some phonostages have a wide soundstage and some flat and less 3d. Some have better pace or as you could say PRaT, some have more detail but are less musical. Finding the right phonostage is maybe a little luck mixed with trail and error. The more you try the more experienced you get. The odds of finding the perfect phonostage increase with the more you demo. You can also ask for advice from more experienced folks who have tried a bunch. The phonostage almost ends up being a fine tune eq to get the correct tone in the end with your particular system dynamics and character.
  
  Quote: 





palmfish said:


> I'm a big sceptic of phono stage hype. All it needs to do is step up the output of the turntable without coloring. Pretty simple and I'm sure your Sony does a perfectly acceptable job.
> 
> You can always try it out and look into an outboard preamp if you don't like the results.


----------



## jtaylor991

Thank you for the very informative post. I have one question related to stages: If my receiver has a built in stage, how can I bypass it? I have my own stage I bought thinking my receiver didn't have a stage (found out today it did, using two stages made me think the turntable was messed up so I had it repaired, and there were problems so yeah but still grr lol) and I want to see if it is better or not.
   
  I seem to have to really up the bass in my EQ, but I did change cartridges (from a worn out Shure V15VMR like I had earlier to a $30 Ortofon Omega) and stages and had repairs done, and I have speakers that rely on a sub bass radiator for the lows (Polk Audio Monitor 10s, not sure which version unfortunately), and I want to see if it adds any more detail or even more bass. Can I do that?
  
  Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> Well, just remember what a phonostage does it adds back an eq and amplifies the signal. The RIAA curve is done and if you think they are all the same you should listen to a couple of different ones. I have tried lots and you need to both have a cartridge and turntable which will be a pure enough source to tell in the first place. Then an amp and headphone that will show you the differences. Just like different amps, each phonostage has it's own character, let alone ways to load and do the RIAA curve. So there are really a lot of variables to contend with. Many believe what is important up stream is more important than what is down stream, the phonostage is pretty close to the start. I had a Stanton preamp/phonostage that was the major one used in radio stations in the 1970s and at $85.00 it was a good starter. I switched to a better one and it resulted in more authority and warmth. I later borrowed phonostages to demo, just still looking for improvement. There is also a need to match your needle to the phonostage, not just mm or mc matching but getting the character of your needle/cartridge setup to match the character of the phonostage. Also some phonostages put out more signal some less, some phonostages put out more ground hum than others. All phonostages made have ground hum if you turn up the volume enough with no needle down playing a record. Getting the blackest background is a result of a lesser ground hum. Each has different levels of distortion too. Some phonostages sound thin and some bass heavy, so it is finding the one with the sound signature your into and the one in your price point which matches all your other gear correctly.
> 
> As you try different one each has a different soundstage with speakers as some phonostages have a wide soundstage and some flat and less 3d. Some have better pace or as you could say PRaT, some have more detail but are less musical. Finding the right phonostage is maybe a little luck mixed with trail and error. The more you try the more experienced you get. The odds of finding the perfect phonostage increase with the more you demo. You can also ask for advice from more experienced folks who have tried a bunch. The phonostage almost ends up being a fine tune eq to get the correct tone in the end with your particular system dynamics and character.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> Thank you for the very informative post. I have one question related to stages: If my receiver has a built in stage, how can I bypass it? I have my own stage I bought thinking my receiver didn't have a stage (found out today it did, using two stages made me think the turntable was messed up so I had it repaired, and there were problems so yeah but still grr lol) and I want to see if it is better or not.
> 
> I seem to have to really up the bass in my EQ, but I did change cartridges (from a worn out Shure V15VMR like I had earlier to a $30 Ortofon Omega) and stages and had repairs done, and I have speakers that rely on a sub bass radiator for the lows (Polk Audio Monitor 10s, not sure which version unfortunately), and I want to see if it adds any more detail or even more bass. Can I do that?


 

 Connect the output from your phono preamp to any input other than the phono input on your receiver. And yeah, double-preamping is bad. Don't do it.


----------



## jtaylor991

My records sounded like bad reception AM radio so bad that it would damage the tweeters. My local vinyl shop determined that it was a grounding issue inside the turntable since on their test there was so much noise they couldn't do it lol. They did that and I got it back today, same issue. Then I wished I knew if my receiver (inherited w/o papers) had a built in stage. Then I noted an MC under the Phono light on the input selection screen and I thought Moving Coil. It does! I saw the MM too not lit up so I looked for the button and found the button that said MM/MC that I never knew what is was before. Took out my outboard stage, changed it to MM to fit my cartridge and voila! There was still an issue but wow.
   
  One time the drivers unloaded and flew out of control on my speakers and squeaked etc and it scared the living crap out of me! My guy said that it was because of the RIAA curve and that I didn't have a stage. I guess that was the grounding issue they found and fixed. And it was on MC on a MM cartridge but that works now, the highs just disappear, only the low bass gets through, nothing that sounds dangerous. What a story/journey...
   
  I'll post pics of the table again sometime. I will have a good DSLR camera next semester so I'll post rig pics to the pics of your rig threads I follow including this one. Or earlier with my phone if you guys prefer.
  
  Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Connect the output from your phono preamp to any input other than the phono input on your receiver. And yeah, double-preamping is bad. Don't do it.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> My records sounded like bad reception AM radio so bad that it would damage the tweeters. My local vinyl shop determined that it was a grounding issue inside the turntable since on their test there was so much noise they couldn't do it lol. They did that and I got it back today, same issue. Then I wished I knew if my receiver (inherited w/o papers) had a built in stage. Then I noted an MC under the Phono light on the input selection screen and I thought Moving Coil. It does! I saw the MM too not lit up so I looked for the button and found the button that said MM/MC that I never knew what is was before. Took out my outboard stage, changed it to MM to fit my cartridge and voila! There was still an issue but wow.
> 
> One time the drivers unloaded and flew out of control on my speakers and squeaked etc and it scared the living crap out of me! My guy said that it was because of the RIAA curve and that I didn't have a stage. I guess that was the grounding issue they found and fixed. And it was on MC on a MM cartridge but that works now, the highs just disappear, only the low bass gets through, nothing that sounds dangerous. What a story/journey...
> 
> I'll post pics of the table again sometime. I will have a good DSLR camera next semester so I'll post rig pics to the pics of your rig threads I follow including this one. Or earlier with my phone if you guys prefer.


 

 Yikes! Whatever you do, _PLEASE_ don't blow out your Monitor 10's! I had the privilege of hearing a set recently, and I must say they are very nice speakers. Especially if you get them for free


----------



## calipilot227

Just popped in a new stylus on my PL-518...wow! What a difference. The old stylus must have been _really_ worn.


----------



## jtaylor991

Yeah no kidding. Wonderful for the price of free. I am a newbie with vinyl so I have many more mistakes to make, but they are all gonna be first timers that will probably never happen again like when I came upstairs just 10min ago and went to put the arm back on the stand on the side of the turntable the stylus scraped against the record! :S I won't ever do that again. Made me half jump out of my skin since the speakers were on :S not nearly as bad as other times though. Plus, it wasn't bad for the speakers, can't of been much different than a record scratch wicky woo lol and the cartridge/stylus combo is $30 anyway
   
  I also left a box of 45s in my sis's car for a few hours to bake in the sun. One single melted and like shriveled up. Song was Heaven and Hell by The Who, one of them that was probably worth listening to 
  
  Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Yikes! Whatever you do, _PLEASE_ don't blow out your Monitor 10's! I had the privilege of hearing a set recently, and I must say they are very nice speakers. Especially if you get them for free


----------



## mikerobe

It just feels like it's been a while since a pic was posted.  Consider it the tt pron equivalent of comic relief in a serious story.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> Yeah no kidding. Wonderful for the price of free. I am a newbie with vinyl so I have many more mistakes to make, but they are all gonna be first timers that will probably never happen again like when I came upstairs just 10min ago and went to put the arm back on the stand on the side of the turntable the stylus scraped against the record! :S I won't ever do that again. Made me half jump out of my skin since the speakers were on :S not nearly as bad as other times though. Plus, it wasn't bad for the speakers, can't of been much different than a record scratch wicky woo lol and the cartridge/stylus combo is $30 anyway
> 
> I also left a box of 45s in my sis's car for a few hours to bake in the sun. One single melted and like shriveled up. Song was Heaven and Hell by The Who, one of them that was probably worth listening to


 

 Lesson #1: Always use the cueing lever. Lesson #2: Don't leave records in hot places. I've been spinning records since I was 5 ears old when I uncovered a Radioshack record changer in the attic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You just have to learn to be careful more than anything else. If you're good to your vinyl, it will be good to you.
   


  Quote: 





mikerobe said:


> It just feels like it's been a while since a pic was posted.  Consider it the tt pron equivalent of comic relief in a serious story.


 

 Thanks for getting us back on track


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Yikes! Whatever you do, _PLEASE_ don't blow out your Monitor 10's! I had the privilege of hearing a set recently, and I must say they are very nice speakers. Especially if you get them for free


 


  Yes, last year I blew one of my tweeters with a screechy sound from a phono stage. I guess the screechy sound was too much for it.


----------



## J.Pocalypse

Subscribed.


----------



## jtaylor991

The lever was in fact lifted. Lesson is make sure you aren't looking down on to the turntable so you can tell if you are putting too much downward pressure on the arm/cartridge in transport to the resting place.
  
  Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Lesson #1: Always use the cueing lever. Lesson #2: Don't leave records in hot places. I've been spinning records since I was 5 ears old when I uncovered a Radioshack record changer in the attic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Redcarmoose

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?anlgtabl&1327878458
   
   
   

   
   
   

   
Not my turntable, but one of many on Audiogon at the moment.


----------



## cifani090

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?anlgtabl&1327878458
> 
> Not my turntable, but one of many on Audiogon at the moment.


 

 Nice, but big like the old table top art deco turntables.


----------



## dfkt

I would get an even bigger piece of wood, and fit two SL1200 and a mixer into it.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Better yet just get a huge round log and carve out a top for your flight case as well. 
  Quote: 





dfkt said:


> I would get an even bigger piece of wood, and fit two SL1200 and a mixer into it.


----------



## Jack Western

Can anyone remember the Pioneer PL-430. Budget at the time. Still is now, but I got lucky and picked one up for £26 off ebay. Promptly put an Ortofon OM PRO S cartridge and stylus on and now it ain't half bad!


----------



## Jack Western

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> It's a little dusty...
> 
> 
> Currently playing "Face the Music" (Electric Light Orchestra)
> ...


 

 This was my first TT! Got a bit disappointed by the output though, but that was with the stock cartridge and stylus though (P30).


----------



## TheOtus

Lots of very nice pictures. Sort of wanting a turntable, but it's a cold fact that I wouldn't be buying a lot of records to play with it... = /


----------



## palmfish

Buying records is half the fun.


----------



## TheOtus

It is, but when there's no interesting records to buy as vinyl...


----------



## palmfish

Are there no used records stores in Finland?
   
  I have all seven Sibelius symphonies and his better known suites on LP. All bought second hand.


----------



## TheOtus

My point was the fact that the music I like is not exactly often released on vinyl. It's not worth it to buy a turntable and maybe a dozen of records. = (


----------



## Skylab

Can you give an example?  These days there is a huge amount of new vinyl being release.  I'm always surprised how many current artists have vinyl releases.


----------



## cifani090

Quote: 





theotus said:


> My point was the fact that the music I like is not exactly often released on vinyl. It's not worth it to buy a turntable and maybe a dozen of records. = (


 

 What crappy IMO autotune music? Good quality music is released on vinyl, mainstream artists such as Lady Gaga release their music on vinyl, but it's not as good as the "good" music.


----------



## Redcarmoose

The great thing about collecting records are that used records are always being released into the market. You have to get out of your comfort zone at times to find them, but they are out there for the folks willing to do the footwork. It takes years at times to find them, but there are always great records out there.


----------



## TheOtus

skylab said:


> Can you give an example?  These days there is a huge amount of new vinyl being release.  I'm always surprised how many current artists have vinyl releases.


 

 Click Last.FM on my sig. = ) I know that lots of mainstream music is released on vinyl too, the problem is that I don't really listen to mainstream either. xD Some metal I like is released on vinyl, but it's a very small portion of what I listen to.


----------



## zhenya

I would have a hard time buying a turntable too if my taste were largely new music.  Sure, lots of music gets released these days on vinyl, but as much as I like my turntable, I have an awful hard time justifying a new vinyl purchase over the cd, when I know that the music was all mastered digitally anyways.  Also, the vast majority of new (even 180 or 200g) vinyl pressings are pretty bad compared to what was being put out in its heyday of the 60's and 70's.  The best part of having a turntable, to me, is being able to drop into a record store and come out with 10-15 new (to me) albums for less than $50, and for access to the old masterings of the many albums that do sound better on vinyl than their modern digital releases.


----------



## TheOtus

Quote: 





zhenya said:


> I would have a hard time buying a turntable too if my taste were largely new music.  Sure, lots of music gets released these days on vinyl, but as much as I like my turntable, I have an awful hard time justifying a new vinyl purchase over the cd, when I know that the music was all mastered digitally anyways.  Also, the vast majority of new (even 180 or 200g) vinyl pressings are pretty bad compared to what was being put out in its heyday of the 60's and 70's.  The best part of having a turntable, to me, is being able to drop into a record store and come out with 10-15 new (to me) albums for less than $50, and for access to the old masterings of the many albums that do sound better on vinyl than their modern digital releases.


 

 That's also a good point of new music. And if they sound totally different from each other, I have a hard time believing that the CD is inferior. = /


----------



## Skylab

No doubt that most of what I own on vinyl is classic rock from the 70's and 80's.  And since I am 45 years old, that suits me fine.
   
  However, I like several genres of metal a LOT, and I have a bunch of modern Symphonic goth metal (Nightwish, Delain, Theater of Tragedy) on vinyl, and it sounds killer  And there is a TON of great classic Metal on vinyl of course.
   
  That said, if you have no interest in that, I can understand your point.


----------



## jtaylor991

$50 for that many? At my record store new ones (not even sealed) are like $15-20 each...
  I know it's a ripoff but they have good customer service.
  
  Quote: 





zhenya said:


> I would have a hard time buying a turntable too if my taste were largely new music.  Sure, lots of music gets released these days on vinyl, but as much as I like my turntable, I have an awful hard time justifying a new vinyl purchase over the cd, when I know that the music was all mastered digitally anyways.  Also, the vast majority of new (even 180 or 200g) vinyl pressings are pretty bad compared to what was being put out in its heyday of the 60's and 70's.  The best part of having a turntable, to me, is being able to drop into a record store and come out with 10-15 new (to me) albums for less than $50, and for access to the old masterings of the many albums that do sound better on vinyl than their modern digital releases.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





zhenya said:


> I would have a hard time buying a turntable too if my taste were largely new music.  Sure, lots of music gets released these days on vinyl, but as much as I like my turntable, I have an awful hard time justifying a new vinyl purchase over the cd, when I know that the music was all mastered digitally anyways.  Also, the vast majority of new (even 180 or 200g) vinyl pressings are pretty bad compared to what was being put out in its heyday of the 60's and 70's.  The best part of having a turntable, to me, is being able to drop into a record store and come out with 10-15 new (to me) albums for less than $50, and for access to the old masterings of the many albums that do sound better on vinyl than their modern digital releases.


 

 I actually wonder if the studios go to the trouble to master the LP and CD versions separately. The requirements for the two are quite different (LPs have mono bass, rolled-off treble in the center of the disc, more compression, etc.) and would require extra effort (and expense) to do right.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> I actually wonder if the studios go to the trouble to master the LP and CD versions separately. The requirements for the two are quite different (LPs have mono bass, rolled-off treble in the center of the disc, more compression, etc.) and would require extra effort (and expense) to do right.


 


  In many cases they do indeed, and in fact, this is why some people often lament that the LP versions of new releases sound better than the CD versions, not because LP is a better format, but because the LP mastering is better, and most specifically, often less brick walled.


----------



## MorbidToaster

The SACD and Vinyl cuts of Norah Jones' Come Away With Me were superior to the CD relase. Only one I can attest to personally. I'm sure there's more
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> In many cases they do indeed, and in fact, this is why some people often lament that the LP versions of new releases sound better than the CD versions, not because LP is a better format, but because the LP mastering is better, and most specifically, often less brick walled.


----------



## drewjp

NAD C555 with Goldring Elektra cartridge


----------



## zhenya

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> $50 for that many? At my record store new ones (not even sealed) are like $15-20 each...
> I know it's a ripoff but they have good customer service.


 
   
  I'm talking used, not new.  Most used record stores around here price almost everything except the obviously rare stuff between .99 and $7.  I've picked up an awful lot of extremely nice albums this way - and as I alluded to above, even run-of-the-mill commercial recordings from the 60's and 70's are often remarkably good.  I have a number that are nearly dead silent.


----------



## jtaylor991

Oh ok. My record shop that I go to, the one I mentioned, sells 'em as is for $0.50 and $3 too. I listened to a couple I got a few months ago finally (turntable needed service big time) and they have some permanent damage but after listening most of the sibilance and popping is gone. I noticed after cleaning in my Spin Clean when I took records out of the sleeves there was STILL DUST! BLASPHEMY!  probably from the cleaning cloths I use
   
  BTW, anyone else here use a Spin Clean? http://www.spincleanrecordwasher.com/
  
  Quote: 





zhenya said:


> I'm talking used, not new.  Most used record stores around here price almost everything except the obviously rare stuff between .99 and $7.  I've picked up an awful lot of extremely nice albums this way - and as I alluded to above, even run-of-the-mill commercial recordings from the 60's and 70's are often remarkably good.  I have a number that are nearly dead silent.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> Oh ok. My record shop that I go to, the one I mentioned, sells 'em as is for $0.50 and $3 too. I listened to a couple I got a few months ago finally (turntable needed service big time) and they have some permanent damage but after listening most of the sibilance and popping is gone. I noticed after cleaning in my Spin Clean when I took records out of the sleeves there was STILL DUST! BLASPHEMY!  probably from the cleaning cloths I use
> 
> BTW, anyone else here use a Spin Clean? http://www.spincleanrecordwasher.com/


 
  I use dishsoap and a 2" paintbrush in the kitchen sink.
   
  I never put clean albums in an old sleeve. I buy new sleeves 50 at a time.


----------



## jtaylor991

I put them in a new sleeve too, and if the sleeve has pics etc on it I keep in in the cardboard alongside the record in the new sleeve.
  
  Quote: 





palmfish said:


> I use dishsoap and a 2" paintbrush in the kitchen sink.
> 
> I never put clean albums in an old sleeve. I buy new sleeves 50 at a time.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> I put them in a new sleeve too, and if the sleeve has pics etc on it I keep in in the cardboard alongside the record in the new sleeve.


 

 I find the new sleeve usually fits inside the old sleeve (which I also like to keep if it has pictures, lyrics, etc.).


----------



## MohawkUS

I'm thinking of putting together a modest vinyl rig, mainly just because I've never heard vinyl before and some of the albums I want to listen to were only made on vinyl. My dad has an older turntable called the Toshiba SR-B2L and I was wondering if anyone here has any experience with it, I searched for it online but didn't find much. It was made in 1982 and is belt-driven. I doubt its seen any use in the past 15-20 years and I was wondering if it would be worth bothering with it or just saving up for something else. The fact that I found one on craigslist for $20 makes me think it might not be very good, but you never know.
I can try and get a picture of it tomorrow so I'm not too off topic, but its really nothing special, the casing is all plastic not that I mind if it sounds good.


----------



## jr41

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> BTW, anyone else here use a Spin Clean? http://www.spincleanrecordwasher.com/


 
   
  I have one. I used it yesterday to clean 30 LPs. I think a means of properly cleaning records is essential if you buy a lot of used records. The records I pick up from Charity shops, etc. are often filthy. There was a lot of dirt collected in the bottom of the washer once I had finished!
   
  Used records look A LOT better after being put through the Spin Clean. That said, once dried you can sometimes see a residue/water mark in the right light (I use de-ionised water too) and some of the tougher spots of crime aren't always removed. I also think the Spin Clean is a lot of money for what it is; a plastic tray, some brushes and cleaning fluid (which isn't that expensive to buy separately). Still, it's a lot cheaper than a fully automatic vacuum cleaner!


----------



## jtaylor991

I cleaned a few used ones yesterday and the record was actually kinda damaged. Cleaning my stylus helped a tiny bit, but it still sounded bad. A Rare Earth album, the guitars and vocals sound so harsh  It was probably played under bad conditions with a bad needle. There was a guy that had a portable record player that used a NAIL as a needle I heard about :S
   
  I hope to get a vacuum cleaner someday, since I find it annoying to clean records by hand without touching them. Also, why the clockwise motion for cleaning with this thing? What's the deal? I like to hold the record with one cloth in my left hand and extend my thumb as far as it goes applying pressure so the whole diameter of the record up to the part before the label with no content and use my fight hand holding the other cloth to turn the record counter clockwise while applying pressure with my left thumb and that gets 'em clean after a bit more than a few rotations each side.
  
  Quote: 





jr41 said:


> I have one. I used it yesterday to clean 30 LPs. I think a means of properly cleaning records is essential if you buy a lot of used records. The records I pick up from Charity shops, etc. are often filthy. There was a lot of dirt collected in the bottom of the washer once I had finished!
> 
> Used records look A LOT better after being put through the Spin Clean. That said, once dried you can sometimes see a residue/water mark in the right light (I use de-ionised water too) and some of the tougher spots of crime aren't always removed. I also think the Spin Clean is a lot of money for what it is; a plastic tray, some brushes and cleaning fluid (which isn't that expensive to buy separately). Still, it's a lot cheaper than a fully automatic vacuum cleaner!


----------



## calipilot227

I tried the clear dish soap and warm water method yesterday (in the kitchen sink), and one of my Jimi Hendrix albums that was absolutely trashed when I bought it (at a flea market) played almost flawlessly. there's still a few pops from time to time, but I think that's probably caused more by record wear than by dirt.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> I tried the clear dish soap and warm water method yesterday (in the kitchen sink), and one of my Jimi Hendrix albums that was absolutely trashed when I bought it (at a flea market) played almost flawlessly. there's still a few pops from time to time, but I think that's probably caused more by record wear than by dirt.


 


  That's the thing with used records. You don't know where they've been. Some will never get quiet again.
   
  Now the occasional pop is just the nature of the beast. Even a brand new album freshly cleaned and zapped will catch a particle or two.


----------



## jtaylor991

Yeah I have a couple of records that sound almost no better after cleaning. One has this really bad graint thing going on in the left channel and when I walk up to it the right speaker as wel. Another the guitars and vocals were SO scratchy and terrible. Oh well...
  
  Quote: 





palmfish said:


> That's the thing with used records. You don't know where they've been. Some will never get quiet again.
> 
> Now the occasional pop is just the nature of the beast. Even a brand new album freshly cleaned and zapped will catch a particle or two.


----------



## Redcarmoose

The most amazing result for me was at first hearing what sounded like the needle traveling over little dirt pieces ( microscopic rocks) inside the grove. A clean-up with a VPI record cleaning machine resulted in a complete silence coming from the start of the album.
   
  Many folks even have a very special home mixture using photo-flow as well as other solutions. Many I have met have invented their own home brew mixture. There must be mixtures people have come up with posted on the web.
   
  A better turntable will actually make the album sound like it is cleaner as the needle will travel down into the deepest part of the groove and not pick-up the surface scratches as much. In my collection I ended up with some records which were just too ruined to play. Funny though as some records have really deep grooves, you see all the scratches on the surface but the needle can travel down below the surface to where the musical information is, past the scratches, and gives you close to perfect play back in spite of the surface look! You have to play every record to see. Some different pressing companies ( like Apple Records ) have a great track record for being able to be played and enjoyed even though looking totally scratched to hell.
   
  There is always going to be pops in places and after awhile you learn to mentally filter them out. Some folks new to records seem to get upset by the surface noise and pops.It just takes time to learn to filter the sounds out.


----------



## jtaylor991

What does the turntable itself have to do with the needle? How would the turntable itself make the record sound cleaner?
  
  Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> The most amazing result for me was at first hearing what sounded like the needle traveling over little dirt pieces ( microscopic rocks) inside the grove. A clean-up with a VPI record cleaning machine resulted in a complete silence coming from the start of the album.
> 
> Many folks even have a very special home mixture using photo-flow as well as other solutions. Many I have met have invented their own home brew mixture. There must be mixtures people have come up with posted on the web.
> 
> ...


----------



## MorbidToaster

Tone arm and weight have _a lot_ to do with the way a record sounds.
   
  Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> What does the turntable itself have to do with the needle? How would the turntable itself make the record sound cleaner?


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> What does the turntable itself have to do with the needle? How would the turntable itself make the record sound cleaner?


 
  Tracking and anti-skating force do play a role, but when you are talking specifically about getting down deep into the groove, you're talking about the shape of the stylus.
   
  Conical, Elliptical, Hyper-elliptical are the most common (in order from worst to best).
   
  Getting deeper in the groove does not necessarily result in better sound. It's just a factor to consider.


----------



## Redcarmoose

I'm just responding with what information I feel I have learned and from what I have read. I had a ton of tables over the years old Panasonics, 1200s, then a TD160 then finally a Scout by VPI. I noticed the Scout and Clear Audio needle gave me a clearer sound with less surface noise and less scratches were noticed. I do not fully know why but my understanding is the needle is retrieving the musical information deeper in the groove and not playing the upper level of the groove. It may be that the signal from the deeper part of the groove is produced louder thus covering the scratches. This is just my experience. Tracking is also going to reduce surface noise I feel. I'm no expert here only a guy with a history of different turntables. It would be fun to record a disk played back on different tables and compare the artifacts between one table and another. The other problem starts to surface as when you get a larger investment in a needle you don't want to play bad records due to the fact that they wear the needle faster. Many I know have an arm for old records and an arm for new records. They will also have a mono arm. VPIs are cool as you can replace arms in seconds. Many folks will also have rigs with multiple arms which can be dropped at a whim. They are set up around the platter and dialed in ready to go. Most have two but if I remember right, I have seen as many as four around a platter.


----------



## mikerobe

I am gonna chime in with my opinion on a few recent topics.
   
  Spin Clean is something that I (so far) stand 100% behind.  Unless I don't have any distilled water on hand, nothing touches my TT without going through a spin clean.  If I could afford one of those fancy vacuum cleaning systems, we might be having a different discussions.  I can't.  The spin clean works so friggin' well for my mid-fi needs.  Any audiophile that is considering a spin clean is likely one that won't spend the money for a vacuum system.  Great!  I never wash 20-30 records.  I only wash records until my two drying rags aren't working anymore.  That has done the trick so far.
   
  The second question/statement/concern is on the whole TT making the difference.  "*A better turntable will actually make the album sound like it is cleaner as the needle will travel down into the deepest part of the groove and not pick-up the surface scratches as much."* This statement sticks out more than others (is that because someone bolded it?!)
   
  I think the cartridge (and thusly the attached needle) has EVERYTHING to do with how deep the stylus travels in the groove.  I believe the elliptical tip on my cartridge is designed to reach better parts of the groove.  The point of the TT is reducing secondary noises and speed regulation, no?  A better system drives the platter at a more consistent speed and with better sound isolation for all the moving parts necessary.


----------



## Redcarmoose

What I'm suggesting only is the tracking of the arm and quality of the table allow that needle to stay in the lower part of the groove. This is only a guess on my part.


----------



## mikerobe

Fair enough... but I suppose that is further parting out the whole vinyl/TT experience.  The tone-arm (tonearm?) is another piece that -at least in my system- can be swapped out and certainly adjusted.  But I think specific stylus shapes can get into grooves better at the same tracking weight as other shapes...
   
  Seriously!  I am glad I am happy enough with the system I have.  The possibilities are near endless.  Upgrades begetting other upgrades.


----------



## mikerobe

...also I have been grooving out to some heavy garage rock on vinyl most of the night Black Keys and now The White Stripes... and drinking high alcohol winter beer.  Apologies if anything comes off as anything less than friendly.  Fired up!! Wheeeee!


----------



## Redcarmoose

I agree that the whole sum of possibilities is truly endless. I have had slow improvements in equipment over the span of 34 years. I have seen and heard 30K table rigs with 20K stylus set-ups played with 50K worth of preamps, amps and speakers. It is really a hobby that can go as far or as simple as you want to make it. I guess the best part is anyone can get a $20.00 dollar table and a couple of $1.00 thrift store records and make a great start.
  
  Quote: 





mikerobe said:


> Fair enough... but I suppose that is further parting out the whole vinyl/TT experience.  The tone-arm (tonearm?) is another piece that -at least in my system- can be swapped out and certainly adjusted.  But I think specific stylus shapes can get into grooves better at the same tracking weight as other shapes...
> 
> Seriously!  I am glad I am happy enough with the system I have.  The possibilities are near endless.  Upgrades begetting other upgrades.


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





mikerobe said:


> ...also I have been grooving out to some heavy garage rock on vinyl most of the night Black Keys and now The White Stripes... and drinking high alcohol winter beer.  Apologies if anything comes off as anything less than friendly.  Fired up!! Wheeeee!


 


  So true, the great part is he uses a $30.00 thrift store Kay guitar which he has loved and became close with over the years. It's not always about money but where your head is at and the passion you bring to the music!
   
  Anything sounds great with the right volume and a little fluid enhancement!


----------



## jr41

For those of you out there that would like a vacuum record cleaner but can't afford the _very_ high cost (like me!), check this out:
   
http://www.kabusa.com/ev1.htm
   
  I've read it does a better job than the Spin Clean - I only learned about it after I brought the Spin Clean. Maybe I'll buy one sometime down the line, but I'm pretty happy with the Spin Clean for the moment (at least based on before and after visual inspection - I'm still waiting to take delivery of my TT so I can actually start listening to some records!).


----------



## jtaylor991

That looks kinda cool but the position I'd have to get in with the brush in one hand and turn the record with the other would be too awkward and complicated for me. If the record turned itself then that could be a potential new product for me.
  
  Quote: 





jr41 said:


> For those of you out there that would like a vacuum record cleaner but can't afford the _very_ high cost (like me!), check this out:
> 
> http://www.kabusa.com/ev1.htm
> 
> I've read it does a better job than the Spin Clean - I only learned about it after I brought the Spin Clean. Maybe I'll buy one sometime down the line, but I'm pretty happy with the Spin Clean for the moment (at least based on before and after visual inspection - I'm still waiting to take delivery of my TT so I can actually start listening to some records!).


----------



## zhenya

It's not that big of a deal. I had a system made of a mini shop-vac and an old thrift store turntable I used for a while that worked fine. Turning the record was no problem - in fact it'd take quite a clamping system and motor to turn the record against the suction of the vacuum. In the end I gave it up because I didn't find vacuuming to be any better than scrubbing and drying with microfiber cloths, which is much easier and faster.


----------



## ardilla




----------



## gmoney80

Music hall mmf-2.2 with speed box II, acrylit platter and ortofon 2m blue


----------



## MorbidToaster

What rack is that? I love the look.


----------



## gmoney80

Its a VTI BL series 4 shelf or BL404, its actually pretty cool because you can customize the color of the poles, caps and shelves.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I think I've found the rack I want...Seems like a decent price to me...
   
  http://www.walmart.com/ip/VTI-BL-Series-4-Shelf-Audio-Rack/15176951
  
  Quote: 





gmoney80 said:


> Its a VTI BL series 4 shelf or BL404, its actually pretty cool because you can customize the color of the poles, caps and shelves.


----------



## gmoney80

wow walmart sells vti huh, i bought mine from
   
  http://www.racksandstands.com/VTI-BL-Series-4-Shelf-Audio-Rack-BL404-VI1001.html
   
  about a year and a half ago.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





ardilla said:


>


 

 You know you're a vinyl junkie when the first thing you noticed is the SL-1210


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





gmoney80 said:


> Music hall mmf-2.2 with speed box II, acrylit platter and ortofon 2m blue


 

 Music Hall sure makes great-looking turntables 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 What speakers/amp/phonostage?


----------



## gmoney80

Wharfedale evo 10 speakers
  emotiva usp-1 preamp-built in phono stage
  emotiva upa-1 monoblocks
  SChiit asgard ha


----------



## Eee Pee

You guys ever see this site before?
   
  http://www.highendpalace.com/ANALOG.htm
   
  It's ree. dick. you. luss!


----------



## MorbidToaster

How do you like that Emotiva gear? The price seems excellent and it seems well received.
  
  Quote: 





gmoney80 said:


> Wharfedale evo 10 speakers
> emotiva usp-1 preamp-built in phono stage
> emotiva upa-1 monoblocks
> SChiit asgard ha


----------



## gmoney80

It really is fantastic sounding equipment i also have the xpa-5 for my ht and it really adds some punch.


----------



## jr41

​   
​  ​ ​  ​ ​  ​  My new Rega RP3 turntable with Rega Elys 2 cartridge, Cambridge Audio Azur 640P phono stage and Rega TT PSU. Spinning a bit of Grateful Dead


----------



## cifani090

Quote: 





jr41 said:


> ​  My new Rega RP3 turntable with Rega Elys 2 cartridge, Cambridge Audio Azur 640P phono stage and Rega TT PSU. Spinning a bit of Grateful Dead


 

 Very nice turntable! I love the streamline looks of them Rega's.


----------



## jr41

Quote: 





cifani090 said:


> Very nice turntable! I love the streamline looks of them Rega's.


 

 Thank you! I also got New Blood on vinyl


----------



## cifani090

Quote: 





jr41 said:


> Thank you! I also got New Blood on vinyl


 

 No you didn't! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You have to post a picture, or else you will be shunned from Head-Fi
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also im listening to some Peter Gabriel at this very second!


----------



## MorbidToaster

I keep almost buying that album and putting it back. I should really pick it up.
  
  Quote: 





cifani090 said:


> No you didn't!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MohawkUS

I'm going to be setting up my first turntable sometime soon.
I was thinking a Dual 1219 table with my dad's old Pioneer Sx-6 reciver as the phono-preamp.
Would this be a good system to start with? I notice most of the vinyl forums say that vintage tables are best, but a lot of people here have the new stuff.
I can get a fully restored Dual with a shure cartridge and warranty for $400 which is the price on the newer entry level tables. Is this a good deal?

Thanks


----------



## jr41

Quote: 





cifani090 said:


> No you didn't!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Ha ha! I trust this will quash any doubt...
   
​  The included picture disc 7" of A Quiet Moment and Solsbury Hill
 ​ ​  Please excuse the crappy picture quality.
   
  I have a few more LPs of Gabriel's solo work. My favorite work involving him so far though is Trespass by Genesis, I love that album! (Along with the Lamb Lies Down on Broadway of course).


----------



## cifani090

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I keep almost buying that album and putting it back. I should really pick it up.


 

 Hahah, its one of them albums that you "have to have."
   
  Quote: 





jr41 said:


> Ha ha! I trust this will quash any doubt...
> 
> ​  The included picture disc 7" of A Quiet Moment and Solsbury Hill
> ​  ​  Please excuse the crappy picture quality.
> ...


 

 Ive never had a piece of vinyl, but im guessing its the front and back side? Anyways that newly pressed vinyl looks good on that new Rega!


----------



## jr41

Quote: 





cifani090 said:


> Hahah, its one of them albums that you "have to have."
> 
> Ive never had a piece of vinyl, but im guessing its the front and back side? Anyways that newly pressed vinyl looks good on that new Rega!


 

 The first picture is one side of the 7" and the second is one side of one of the 12" LPs. Thanks


----------



## MorbidToaster

Terrible photo, but I set it up really quick to make sure it worked (it was in great shape, but I'm a paranoid individual) before I invested in a new cart and phono stage for it.


----------



## MohawkUS

I got a Dual 1209 table from a local shop going out of business.





Fully restored. I've been listening straight out of my Burson at 80% volume as both of the receivers we have are on their last legs and going fast. I've got a vintage Sherwood that should be here today that I'm going to use the phono stage of.
 What would you guys recommend for putting the turntable on? As you can see in the picture I've got it on an old TV stand for the moment. I'm going to be putting some cone feet on the table soon, but I need a good shelf to put it on, the TV stand wobbles around at the slightest touch.


----------



## rehabitat

Nice Dual. Best option would be to install a shelf to your wall and sit it there, especially if you have a wooden\suspended floor. On concrete you could just use a small sturdy dedicated table. I was thinking about stacking some left over building blocks (hebel) in a ~ one metre high platform in my living room so that the effect of speaker vibrations was lessened.


----------



## FSonicSmith

My two tables. The VPI Classic has a Benz Glider LO into a Simaudio LP5.3 phono stage. The Thorens TD124 has been fully restored and rebuilt by Jim Campbell (highly recommend Jim!!) and the SME 3009SII arm was rebuilt and rewired by Alfred of SMEtonearms.com in Canada. It has an Ortofon 540MkII MM cartridge and I run that into a Simaudio LP3 phono stage boosted with a Wellborne Labs PSU. Love them both.


----------



## Skylab

Wow that is a beautiful Thorens!  Very nice.


----------



## Skylab

I wish I had THIS turntable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  ​


----------



## FSonicSmith

Quote: 





> Wow that is a beautiful Thorens!  Very nice.


 
   
  Thank you Skylab. That means a lot to me (as I hold you in high esteem on this Board, seriously). 
  Jim Campbell built a solid plinth of birch, and though he does beautiful wrap around veneers, I chose to keep the birch ply natural. 
  The table was my dad's-he showed me his original receipt from some long gone audio store in Manhattan-from 1961 when I was two years old. I grew up with the turntable sitting in our living room, part of my dad's high-end system (for the day) which included Scott tubed electronics and AR3a loudspeakers.
  The table sat unused for twenty years and the motor was frozen when it was given to me two years ago. Jim does amazing work. It's now good as new. Art Dudley did a great two part piece about the incredible purpose-built design of the TD124.


----------



## cifani090




----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





cifani090 said:


>


 

 I spy with my little eye...a Stanton 680 cart?


----------



## cifani090

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> I spy with my little eye...a Stanton 680 cart?


 

 You are correct. I think i may have too old of a cart, i bought from another owner who doesn't know the milage because i dont know how to palace it correctly.


----------



## PrestigeWW




----------



## bacobits

My P5, TTPS, GT Ref v Sub-platter, GT Delrin platter, Lim dual Pulley, double White Belts, Michell Techno Weight, BDR Cones and bases for feet.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





cifani090 said:


> You are correct. I think i may have too old of a cart, i bought from another owner who doesn't know the milage because i dont know how to palace it correctly.


 

 If it's a 680 like mine, they were made from 1979 on. The previous owner of my table bought the cart brand new in '79, so I'm looking to upgrade. I just replaced the stylus (~$20 on ebay, IIRC) to buy a little more time and so that I won't destroy my records.


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





prestigeww said:


>


 


   One of the nicest turntables to ever grace this thread! These I hear can keep up with the older VPI top level designs.
   
   
  A complete work of art.


----------



## PrestigeWW

Thanks Red.


----------



## AuralRelations

Couple of pics of my Grado Prestige Gold1 on my Technics SL-1200M3D. Great, lush sounding cart for the most part but doesn't track as well as I would like.


----------



## jr41

Quote: 





bacobits said:


> My P5, TTPS, GT Ref v Sub-platter, GT Delrin platter, Lim dual Pulley, double White Belts, Michell Techno Weight, BDR Cones and bases for feet.


 
   
  Very nice, and all those upgrades! How do you like the Groovetracer upgrades? I've been looking into those for my RP3. What cart do you run with the P5?


----------



## jtaylor991

Vinyl ripping question: Is going from my phono stage output to my motherboard's line in into Audacity adequate for this? Will I get all the detail etc? It's just an ASUS P5QL LGA 775 board. I wanna buy some stuff on vinyl but I don't wanna buy it again in digital...


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> Vinyl ripping question: Is going from my phono stage output to my motherboard's line in into Audacity adequate for this? Will I get all the detail etc? It's just an ASUS P5QL LGA 775 board. I wanna buy some stuff on vinyl but I don't wanna buy it again in digital...


 

 I think that's good enough. As long as your computer has a dedicated line-in, you're probably okay


----------



## jtaylor991

Cool, thanks. I'll try it.
  
  Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> I think that's good enough. As long as your computer has a dedicated line-in, you're probably okay


----------



## TubeDriver

Well Tempered setup with nuded/brass plate DL-103 and Artemis Labs phono stage.


----------



## AuralRelations

Beautiful table, TubeDriver. How does the nude DL-103 sound different from the stock one?


----------



## TubeDriver

Quote: 





auralrelations said:


> Beautiful table, TubeDriver. How does the nude DL-103 sound different from the stock one?


 


   
  The nuded dl-103 sounds a little more focused.  A bigger advantage is that you can use your own mounting plate (brass in this case).  The additional weight really helps to smooth out the cartridge and allows it work with more tone arms.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





tubedriver said:


> The nuded dl-103 sounds a little more focused.  A bigger advantage is that you can use your own mounting plate (brass in this case).  The additional weight really helps to smooth out the cartridge and allows it work with more tone arms.


 

 When I was a kid, I used to use pennies and scotch tape.


----------



## roker

Found a Thorens 190 at a junk shop (early, 1st version), but he didn't have an AC adapter and the cartridge was missing.  I didn't want to chance it so I passed.
   
  If anyone has any ideas on how I can get a good turntable for a reasonable price let me know.
   
  I have a bunch of vinyls that need love.
   
  My dream turntable is a Project 1.3, I know that's considered entry level, but I don't really want something ridiculously expensive plus I live it's minimalistic design.  Doubt I'd find it for a good price though.


----------



## AuralRelations

Quote: 





roker said:


> If anyone has any ideas on how I can get a good turntable for a reasonable price let me know.


 

 Have you been keeping an eye out on Craigslist and Audiogon? Audiogon has a bunch of higher end stuff. I find that some good audiophile decks show up on Craigslist from time to time. Also, maybe bartertown at Audiokarma may be a good place to look.


----------



## zhenya

The problem I'd always have about buying an inexpensive turntable that needs to be shipped is that packing one such that it is not damaged during shipping requires great care (and preferably the original packing materials).  All that material makes for a big, heavy, expensive box to ship (and reliance that the seller actually knows what they are doing).  So now your $100 turntable is suddenly 50% more.
   
  Do you have a local mid-fi or hi-fi shop that carries used equipment?  That'd be where I'd look if I wasn't finding anything on Craigslist locally and had a very tight budget.


----------



## jtaylor991

Another question:
   
  So, I know work styli can damage a record, but how severely? I'm scared of damaging my records, even though I'm playing a bunch of used records for the first time. My stylus had rubbed across the rubber mat on the turntable and my shop said it was fine. Since then it has done this some more (skips off the edge on old 45s, doesn't sound as bad on the stereo as you'd think, just like someone blowing through a mic) and scratched across the record a few times. Once I reached for something and pushed it across, and other times I was putting it away and I wasn't lifting high enough and it made contact on the way over to the cradle. I've also placed it myself a few times, and my hand is a bit shaky. I try not to do it, but for some reason I just feel like it. I can buy a new stylus (if I can find it, it's the $30 Ortofon Omega, can't find a replacement one anywhere yet, I'll call them) but I'm worried I have damaged my records. Only sometimes do the highs sound off/distorted, and I have been assuming that it was the result of a dirty record. Some others play fine and it sounds fine. I have one record where the vocals have a lot of sibilance, but on all my other records this doesn't seem so. I think it's just the mastering of the record or something.
   
  I oughta just replace the stylus anyway to see if it sounds different, but how can I tell if my records are damaged? Would the damage be severe? If it's subtle I might barely notice it if at all. I read somewhere that you can take the fingertip side of your finger back to front lightly, and if there is not a slight scratch on your skin, the stylus is probably work down. Is this true or even recommended/safe?


----------



## Thing Fish




----------



## Maxvla

Great thread. I've been trolling it for quite some time. Think I'm going to try to assemble a turntable setup after finding out we have a great vinyl store here in town and finding that prices for vinyl albums are generally the same or cheaper on older releases (but still new in box) than cds, and more artists than I expected have vinyl listed on their amazon album pages.

My family has a Pioneer PL-720 and PL-550 (silver). The 720 sounds quite bad. Very distorted. I have it connected to the phono stage of my Pioneer SX-9 receiver. Could be that it still has the original stock cart on it, heh. The 550 is at my parent's house. I'll have to bring it home and see how it works. Apparently the 550 is a popular model.

Btw, while searching about Pioneer tables I came across this page about the P3 turntable. It's absolutely beautiful and insanely over engineered.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/pioneer-Exclusive_P3.html


----------



## Skylab

I want one of those Pioneer Exclusive P3's so bad I can't stand it.  But the last one that came up for sale was in 7/10 condition, had to ship from Japan, and was still $8,500...
   
  JTaylor991, a worn cartridge really can ruin your records. Unless someone looks at the stylus under a microscope (and of course knows what they are looking at), they can't tell.  What cartridge is it? If its an expensive one, you should take it in to get looked at.  If its not an expensive one, just buy a replacement stylus.  It's worth it.


----------



## jtaylor991

It's $30, the Ortofon Omega. I can't seem to find a replacement stylus for it anywhere, unfortunately. I'll call up Ortofon and figure it out. There were a couple on Needle Doctor for $50 and $119 that looked like they would fit, but black. I knew something was up because the cartridge and stylus combo is only $30 anyway. Thanks! I hope my records aren't ruined.
  But, if the stylus is worn down would it cut lower or higher in the grooves? If lower, than well  if higher (because of the thicker less fine worn stylus not pushing down as far?) then could a new stylus just go deeper in the record and play it almost just fine?
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I want one of those Pioneer Exclusive P3's so bad I can't stand it.  But the last one that came up for sale was in 7/10 condition, had to ship from Japan, and was still $8,500...
> 
> JTaylor991, a worn cartridge really can ruin your records. Unless someone looks at the stylus under a microscope (and of course knows what they are looking at), they can't tell.  What cartridge is it? If its an expensive one, you should take it in to get looked at.  If its not an expensive one, just buy a replacement stylus.  It's worth it.


----------



## Skylab

No, that's not it at all.  If its worn, the polish on the diamond is gone, and it will actually really eat up the vinyl. The wear is rarely in a uniform way.
   
  Trust me, you cannot rationalize using a worn stylus  You just have to deal with it.


----------



## Maxvla

Quick question for the group: I think I know what's wrong with my Pioneer PL720, the cartridge needs replacing. The one I've read is a great performer for the money is the Ortofon OM5E. Does this fit my arm? I see a review on Needle Doctor for this mentioning he put it on 'an old Pioneer' so I'm guessing most mass market TTs shared arm design?


----------



## Skylab

It certainly looks like that would work well, Max.


----------



## Maxvla

Thanks, Skylab.

edit: Just took a closer look now that I know what I'm looking at, and it does appear to match perfectly. Going to order one. Yay for first vinyl rig.


----------



## Maxvla

So, you know it's bad when the upgrade bug bites before you've even purchased something, but (!) I saw the Ortofon 2M Red which is $99 and captured many awards and it also looks quite nice as well. Wondering if I should just go for that. $100 is about my limit on experimenting with vinyl for now. I still don't have more than a couple records yet!

Not being familiar with installing these, I assume the stylus portion is removed, the black portion is screwed to the tonearm then the stylus is re-attached?


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Not being familiar with installing these, I assume the stylus portion is removed, the black portion is screwed to the tonearm then the stylus is re-attached?


 

 There's a little more to it than that.You have to align the cartridge properly and also set proper tracking and anti-skating force. If you've never done it before, you should ask someone who's experienced to do it for you or take it to an audio shop for professional installation.
   
  And you know, not to complicate things, but depending on the history of your current setup, a proper alignment and force settings may be all you need with your current cartridge/stylus.


----------



## Maxvla

Thanks for the tips. I'll check to see what the recommended settings are and make sure I try it with those to be sure before I buy a new one. I saw Skylab's comment somewhere about 'if your sound is distorted, it's usually in need of a new cartridge' not exact quote.. The sound from my TT now is exactly that. Distorted quite heavily.


----------



## Skylab

It is possible that your current cartridge is so badly aligned that it is distorting, but unlikely.  But indeed, you cannot just slap a new cartridge on and have it work - you have to adjust VTF (the tracking force or weight) and the antiskate.  It's also important to get the tracking angle right, although very often just making sure the cartridge is as far forward in the headshell as it can be is enough.
   
  BTW I have a Ortofon 2M Bronze in my vintage Pioneer PL-530 and it is a GREAT cartridge.  You don't even have to take the stylus out when installing - there is a nneedle guard.


----------



## Maxvla

Ok, I've reset it back to zero and dialed it in according to the instructions. Anti Skate and Tracking Force at 2.0. I will check the alignment, but so far no real improvement in sound. The skate and tracking seem to be almost exactly where it was before I reset it.

Thanks for the assistance guys. Will report again when I check the alignment.

edit: So I took the headshell off to inspect the alignment and found quite a bit of dust buildup on the needle. Brushed it off with a fine plastic brush and put it back on. Vastly improved sound. I guess I should have looked at the obvious stuff first. There is still a little distortion, but it is worlds better now. The needle is probably worn out. The manual said this particular needle is rated for 800 hours of playback and it is the original needle from this 1980s TT.

Think I'll get the 2M Red then work on building an actual record collection. Currently at 2 LPs, heh. Got what looks like a great, reasonably priced, record store about 20 minutes away. Might run down there soon and check it out in person.

Thanks again guys.

edit again: Found a coupon code for Needle Doctor's site (SAVE10) which gives 10% off. Nice bonus


----------



## MorbidToaster

The Red was the cartridge I've had my eye on as well for my PL518, so I might grab one soon along with a reasonably priced phono stage after my LF comes in.


----------



## roker

Went back to that same junk shop I saw the Thorens 190 at and it was still there, so I decided to grab it this time.
   
  Took it home, found an adapter and plugged it in
   
  it spun!
   
  So I have a cheap cartridge and phono amp on order, if this baby works, then I'll start giving it real love (new belt, rewire the rca's, better phono preamp, better cartridge, etc.)
   
  I'll take some pics when I have it setup.


----------



## Thing Fish




----------



## roker

Quote: 





thing fish said:


>


 


  ???
   
  Good or bad?


----------



## grokit

Congrats on the table Maxvla, I can attest that the 2M Red is better than the older OM Series which was pretty good. I doubt you could find anything better for $100.


----------



## Thing Fish

Quote: 





roker said:


> ???
> 
> Good or bad?


 


  It's all good.
  Just eating some popcorn whilst waiting in anticipation of seeing the pics of your new find.


----------



## rehabitat

I should've posted this here ages ago

  My grubby old RP3, with
  New DL160 cart and "Wand" carbon fibre unipivot tonearm from NZ, installed last Christmas


----------



## Maxvla

grokit said:


> Congrats on the table Maxvla, I can attest that the 2M Red is better than the older OM Series which was pretty good. I doubt you could find anything better for $100.




Thanks. Looking forward to it. Gotta get some media and quick!


----------



## MorbidToaster

If you can manage to do it make some time to head downtown to Waterloo records when you're here for the meet...Then again...SXSW...Ouch.
  
  Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Thanks. Looking forward to it. Gotta get some media and quick!


----------



## AuralRelations

Quote: 





rehabitat said:


> I should've posted this here ages ago
> 
> My grubby old RP3, with
> New DL160 cart and "Wand" carbon fibre unipivot tonearm from NZ, installed last Christmas


 
   
  Crazy tonearm! Could you tell us more about it? How's it compare to the stock RB303?


----------



## Maxvla

Got my Ortofon 2M Red installed and adjusted tonight. Pressed play, let the mechanism do it's thing, then wow.... MUCH better sound. The downside is I only have a couple records atm and they are both on the dusty side so I only let it play long enough to make sure it worked and I was happy with the improvement in performance. Going to hit up a local shop for some clean new vinyl tomorrow. One thing that bothers me though is the wires that connect the tonearm and the cartridge, the metal tubes that slide on are a bit loose on the Ortofon, but were snug on the Pioneer original cartridge. Is that something I should look at replacing? If so where can I get a set pre-fabbed?

Thanks for the help, Skylab.


----------



## jtaylor991

As long as they stay on and you don't touch them to keep them that way, you should be fine, same thing happened to me. Is it thatg great and worth $100? Upgrade from the $30 Ortofon Omega?
  
  Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Got my Ortofon 2M Red installed and adjusted tonight. Pressed play, let the mechanism do it's thing, then wow.... MUCH better sound. The downside is I only have a couple records atm and they are both on the dusty side so I only let it play long enough to make sure it worked and I was happy with the improvement in performance. Going to hit up a local shop for some clean new vinyl tomorrow. One thing that bothers me though is the wires that connect the tonearm and the cartridge, the metal tubes that slide on are a bit loose on the Ortofon, but were snug on the Pioneer original cartridge. Is that something I should look at replacing? If so where can I get a set pre-fabbed?
> Thanks for the help, Skylab.


----------



## Maxvla

Dunno about the upgrade. I went from original 1980s Pioneer cart to this 2M Red and this is also the first time critically listening to a TT at all. The Pioneer cart was worn out and was giving me significant distortion in the upper mids and treble. This Ortofon is crystal clear except after some of the dust built up on the needle it got a bit dull, still better than the Pioneer ever was, but that's a temporary thing as I'll have clean new vinyl to play and look into record cleaning stuff.


----------



## grokit

Quote:


maxvla said:


> Got my Ortofon 2M Red installed and adjusted tonight. Pressed play, let the mechanism do it's thing, then wow.... MUCH better sound. The downside is I only have a couple records atm and they are both on the dusty side so I only let it play long enough to make sure it worked and I was happy with the improvement in performance. Going to hit up a local shop for some clean new vinyl tomorrow. One thing that bothers me though is the wires that connect the tonearm and the cartridge, the metal tubes that slide on are a bit loose on the Ortofon, but were snug on the Pioneer original cartridge. Is that something I should look at replacing? If so where can I get a set pre-fabbed?
> Thanks for the help, Skylab.


 

 Places like needledoctor.com have the wires, but you could try and re-crimp  your existing ones a bit with needlenose pliers. Also there's a used vinyl thread, someone just posted an online source called usedwax.com.


----------



## Skylab

What Grokit said.  Just gently crimp the metal tighter with needle nose pliers, and then put them back on.  I do that all the time.  Standard Operating Procedure.
   
  Max I am glad you like the Ortofon - those 2M's are nice pickups.  Now go buy yourself a brand new record, not used and dusty, of a band you really like, and let 'eric rip


----------



## zhenya

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Dunno about the upgrade. I went from original 1980s Pioneer cart to this 2M Red and this is also the first time critically listening to a TT at all. The Pioneer cart was worn out and was giving me significant distortion in the upper mids and treble. This Ortofon is crystal clear except after some of the dust built up on the needle it got a bit dull, still better than the Pioneer ever was, but that's a temporary thing as I'll have clean new vinyl to play and look into record cleaning stuff.


 
   
  Don't want to burst your bubble, but my experience is that the vast majority of new vinyl is worse than even slightly above average vintage stuff.  It may not be dusty, but it sure is noisy.
   
  All you really need to get your old records clean is some home-ade cleaning solution and a couple of microfiber towels.


----------



## Maxvla

Well surely it's better than having to brush off the needle every time I flip the record because of dust build up.


----------



## AuralRelations

Quote: 





zhenya said:


> Don't want to burst your bubble, but my experience is that the vast majority of new vinyl is worse than even slightly above average vintage stuff.  It may not be dusty, but it sure is noisy.
> 
> All you really need to get your old records clean is some home-ade cleaning solution and a couple of microfiber towels.


 
   
  I feel like a lot of new vinyl releases have fallen victim to the loudness wars but I as for surface noise, I feel there's no difference between new releases and well cleaned vintage records. I love Arcade Fire but _The Suburbs_ just sounds so compressed, even on vinyl. The Black Key's _Brothers_, on the other hand, sounds magnificent. I guess it's really down to the mastering!
   
  Also, I'm an avid user of wood glue to clean stubborn records. It really works and sounds as clean as it'll ever be.


----------



## zhenya

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Well surely it's better than having to brush off the needle every time I flip the record because of dust build up.


 

 Unless you are in a clean room, you are still going to need to brush the needle pretty regularly.  It's part of my routine; every record gets a sweep with the anti-static brush, the needle gets cleaned with a bit of magic eraser, and then a wipe of stylast.  takes all of 20 seconds per side.


----------



## zhenya

Quote: 





auralrelations said:


> I feel like a lot of new vinyl releases have fallen victim to the loudness wars but I as for surface noise, I feel there's no difference between new releases and well cleaned vintage records. I love Arcade Fire but _The Suburbs_ just sounds so compressed, even on vinyl. The Black Key's _Brothers_, on the other hand, sounds magnificent. I guess it's really down to the mastering!
> 
> Also, I'm an avid user of wood glue to clean stubborn records. It really works and sounds as clean as it'll ever be.


 
   
  Agreed, although the records I own with the least amount of surface noise are always vintage.  I have expensive 180g 'audiophile' modern pressings that are irritatingly noisy, not to mention having received warped copies, damaged copies from pieces of vinyl in the sleeve from the factory, etc.


----------



## AuralRelations

Quote: 





zhenya said:


> Agreed, although the records I own with the least amount of surface noise are always vintage.  I have expensive 180g 'audiophile' modern pressings that are irritatingly noisy, not to mention having received warped copies, damaged copies from pieces of vinyl in the sleeve from the factory, etc.


 

 Definitely a pain! I know what you mean about getting "audiophile" grade vinyl only to be disappointed. I purchased a 180gram pressing of _Ella and Louis _and was disppointed that I could hear Armstrong's trumpet play in the right channel BEFORE it was supposed to. Seems that the grooves were cut so close that it contaminated the earlier grooves with noise. Truly irritating!


----------



## Skylab

Hit or miss for me, but once cleaned with my VPI 16.5 wet-vacuum cleaner, the vast majority of my new vinyl is dead quiet.  Of course, so are the vast majority of my older records.  Wet-vacuum cleaning records makes a HUGE difference.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Ahh, but how much does it cost?
   
  I know you can get theme cleaned at a shop, but how much does it cost to get one in your home?
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Hit or miss for me, but once cleaned with my VPI 16.5 wet-vacuum cleaner, the vast majority of my new vinyl is dead quiet.  Of course, so are the vast majority of my older records.  Wet-vacuum cleaning records makes a HUGE difference.


----------



## zhenya

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Ahh, but how much does it cost?
> 
> I know you can get theme cleaned at a shop, but how much does it cost to get one in your home?


 

 You can make a decent vacuum system of your own for little cost.  I personally gave it up because I didn't find an appreciable difference between a vacuum and just using microfiber towels and some solution, which is infinitely more convenient.


----------



## AuralRelations

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Ahh, but how much does it cost?
> 
> I know you can get theme cleaned at a shop, but how much does it cost to get one in your home?


 

 I believe a VPI 16.5 is about $500 new.


----------



## MorbidToaster

That's honestly less than I expected.
  
  Quote: 





auralrelations said:


> I believe a VPI 16.5 is about $500 new.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





zhenya said:


> You can make a decent vacuum system of your own for little cost.  I personally gave it up because I didn't find an appreciable difference between a vacuum and just using microfiber towels and some solution, which is infinitely more convenient.


 


  I don't personally agree with this at all, but it's just my opinion.  My experience is that the wet vacuuming process results in a much quieter record than any other kind of cleaning ever can.


----------



## grokit

VPI certainly makes more expensive record cleaning machines, but the 16.5 is a very good price/value proposition and a time-proven design.


----------



## calipilot227

Few minor changes:
   

   

   
  American DJ headshell (broke one of the wires on my Technics headshell) and a brand new stylus. Really liking the PL-518


----------



## MorbidToaster

Quit jockin' my 518 swag. Then again...maybe I'm the swag jocker.


----------



## 9pintube

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Hit or miss for me, but once cleaned with my VPI 16.5 wet-vacuum cleaner, the vast majority of my new vinyl is dead quiet.  Of course, so are the vast majority of my older records.  Wet-vacuum cleaning records makes a HUGE difference.


 

 I totally agree with Skylab on this one. I've been using a VPI 16.5 RC. for several years and they do a fabulous job. The only other RC's that are a lot better, are the Keith Monks (a big wad of cash) or the knock off who's name I can not recall, but it does use the arm thread technic and these, really work better then anything I've seen or used.. But and it's a BIG BUT, is the cash they cost. I'd rather use my VPI 16.5 and spend the money on new or used vinyl........ The "Magic Eraser" has been mentioned and it works really well, but It was shown to me how your stylist can actually pick up a piece of the "Magic Eraser" and transfer the piece onto the groove of your LP and once that happens there's no getting that hard fiber out of your groove so they said to always use the "Zero Dust" goop after using the M.E.  One must be extra careful with both of these products, they love to eat the Diamonds that we pamper and payed dearly for........My new Vinyl is Quiet, as well as my cleaned originals, the ones that haven't been played to death in my early years, or let people borrow.....PS.. Many say to clean your brand new LP's to get rid of the release agent that the pressing plant uses. I Do, but who am I,  just a 59 yr. old Vinyl JUNKY.....


----------



## jtaylor991

OK so I got my new needle (well new cart and needle, they don't sell separately since it's only $30, cheapest they can make it), and it came today. Guess what?! The needle cover came off, the stylus detached and the cartridge was loose in the packaging, so I guess it was all bouncing around for the ride. Could this new one be just as bad? I listened with both and one sounds clearer than the other, but I might just need to clean my old one, so I'll dot hat for a fair comparison. I'll clean both, too, because I don't even remember which is which (new and old) oops


----------



## Maxvla

One thing I was really impressed with on the Ortofon was the packaging. Absolutely first rate. No chance it was going to be harmed in shipping short of being completely crushed.


----------



## Skylab

Jtaylor you should return that for a replacement, not use it, as surely it is damaged.


----------



## jtaylor991

Mine was an Ortofon and yes it was good packaging the first one I ordered (both from Amazon) but this time well you know the story, not happy. I guess I have to find a way to get to my vinyl store 30min away


----------



## rational

Entry level Sony, pics from when I was messing around with my new camera.


----------



## AuralRelations

LOL "Pretty pictures of ugly music." Cool looking vinyl you've got there!


----------



## rational

Quote:


auralrelations said:


> LOL "Pretty pictures of ugly music." Cool looking vinyl you've got there!


 
  Thanks, vinyl is one of the few things I collect, 4000+ and counting.
   
  left--->right

 Top row:
  Thursday- Full Collapse  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzCWf62s3Zw
  Grade- Under the Radar  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0S38K-MryE
  Kid Dynamite- S/T  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yW2IZ5DUCI
   
  Middle rowt:
  Forstella Ford- Quietus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP-16ZbukRg (couldn't find a song off Quietus)
  Saetia- mountain 12" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ0bVPy8PZ8
  Alkaline Trio- Maybe I'll Catch Fire http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HowlIqf1c2M
   
  Bottom row:
  Milemarker- Frigid Forms Sell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ijydEYwpzU
  Piebald- If it Weren't for Venetian Blinds it Would be Curtains for us all  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnIg3YwCRiA
  Milemarker- Anesthetic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3f19Su0atE&feature=related 
   
   
  You be the judge, most people I know think it is pretty ugly.


----------



## zhenya

Quote: 





9pintube said:


> I totally agree with Skylab on this one. I've been using a VPI 16.5 RC. for several years and they do a fabulous job. The only other RC's that are a lot better, are the Keith Monks (a big wad of cash) or the knock off who's name I can not recall, but it does use the arm thread technic and these, really work better then anything I've seen or used.. But and it's a BIG BUT, is the cash they cost. I'd rather use my VPI 16.5 and spend the money on new or used vinyl........ The "Magic Eraser" has been mentioned and it works really well, but It was shown to me how your stylist can actually pick up a piece of the "Magic Eraser" and transfer the piece onto the groove of your LP and once that happens there's no getting that hard fiber out of your groove so they said to always use the "Zero Dust" goop after using the M.E.  One must be extra careful with both of these products, they love to eat the Diamonds that we pamper and payed dearly for........My new Vinyl is Quiet, as well as my cleaned originals, the ones that haven't been played to death in my early years, or let people borrow.....PS.. Many say to clean your brand new LP's to get rid of the release agent that the pressing plant uses. I Do, but who am I,  just a 59 yr. old Vinyl JUNKY.....


 
   
  All the fancier machines really do is make the job easier.  You have to spend a LOT of money to get one with an appreciably stronger motor, or build your own.
   
  I used a system with a small shop vac as the vacuum source for a while; I'm sure that thing was sucking more off the surface of the record than any off the shelf all-in-one machine I've ever seen.  Like I said, I've since moved on to other methods.
   
  If you, however, have the money to spend, and the space to keep a vacuum machine easily accessible, by all means it's a good method.


----------



## 9pintube

Quote: 





zhenya said:


> All the fancier machines really do is make the job easier.  You have to spend a LOT of money to get one with an appreciably stronger motor, or build your own.
> 
> I used a system with a small shop vac as the vacuum source for a while; I'm sure that thing was sucking more off the surface of the record than any off the shelf all-in-one machine I've ever seen.  Like I said, I've since moved on to other methods.
> 
> If you, however, have the money to spend, and the space to keep a vacuum machine easily accessible, by all means it's a good method.


 
  Yea *zhenya, *After all of my ramblings above I forgot to mention for you younger guys/gals getting into vinyl a Record Vac. Machine is what you should be saving your pennies for. Once you have yours it will last forever, if taken care of... A clean LP not only sounds better but will extend the life of your cartridge/stylist.....


----------



## jtaylor991

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> Another question:
> 
> So, I know work styli can damage a record, but how severely? I'm scared of damaging my records, even though I'm playing a bunch of used records for the first time. My stylus had rubbed across the rubber mat on the turntable and my shop said it was fine. Since then it has done this some more (skips off the edge on old 45s, doesn't sound as bad on the stereo as you'd think, just like someone blowing through a mic) and scratched across the record a few times. Once I reached for something and pushed it across, and other times I was putting it away and I wasn't lifting high enough and it made contact on the way over to the cradle. I've also placed it myself a few times, and my hand is a bit shaky. I try not to do it, but for some reason I just feel like it. I can buy a new stylus (if I can find it, it's the $30 Ortofon Omega, can't find a replacement one anywhere yet, I'll call them) but I'm worried I have damaged my records. Only sometimes do the highs sound off/distorted, and I have been assuming that it was the result of a dirty record. Some others play fine and it sounds fine. I have one record where the vocals have a lot of sibilance, but on all my other records this doesn't seem so. I think it's just the mastering of the record or something.
> 
> I oughta just replace the stylus anyway to see if it sounds different, but how can I tell if my records are damaged? Would the damage be severe? If it's subtle I might barely notice it if at all. I read somewhere that you can take the fingertip side of your finger back to front lightly, and if there is not a slight scratch on your skin, the stylus is probably work down. Is this true or even recommended/safe?


 


   


  Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> It's $30, the Ortofon Omega. I can't seem to find a replacement stylus for it anywhere, unfortunately. I'll call up Ortofon and figure it out. There were a couple on Needle Doctor for $50 and $119 that looked like they would fit, but black. I knew something was up because the cartridge and stylus combo is only $30 anyway. Thanks! I hope my records aren't ruined.
> But, if the stylus is worn down would it cut lower or higher in the grooves? If lower, than well  if higher (because of the thicker less fine worn stylus not pushing down as far?) then could a new stylus just go deeper in the record and play it almost just fine?


 


   


  Quote: 





skylab said:


> No, that's not it at all.  If its worn, the polish on the diamond is gone, and it will actually really eat up the vinyl. The wear is rarely in a uniform way.
> 
> Trust me, you cannot rationalize using a worn stylus  You just have to deal with it.


 


   


  Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> OK so I got my new needle (well new cart and needle, they don't sell separately since it's only $30, cheapest they can make it), and it came today. Guess what?! The needle cover came off, the stylus detached and the cartridge was loose in the packaging, so I guess it was all bouncing around for the ride. Could this new one be just as bad? I listened with both and one sounds clearer than the other, but I might just need to clean my old one, so I'll dot hat for a fair comparison. I'll clean both, too, because I don't even remember which is which (new and old) oops


 
   
   
  NOW:
   
  I called my trusted record store, and they want the basic $75 until they have a day where they doo the basic stuff for free, a "turntable clinic". So, I called the second on my list and they referred me to another store that said they would basically hook it up, listen to it, and look at it with their naked eye and they can usually tell when something is wrong, no microscope necessary. "The only thing that can really go wrong with the stylus is something with the needle." Do these people know what they're talking about? Doesn't sound like it to me. Should I make the 30min drive and spend the 2hrs of my day with these people? It'd be tomorrow when the guy who deals with this is in.
   
http://www.yelp.com/biz/its-a-beautiful-day-kansas-city
   
  Looks like they are not just a record store, however.


----------



## grokit

From that first review, I'd take the chance:
   
_"The REAL magic of It's a Beautiful Day, however, comes by way of it's electronic repair staff. After complimenting the quality of my turntable, the repair man offered an array of replacement parts of varying prices. He explained with expert knowledge and detail the attributes of each part by manufacturer, use, and price.

 He repaired the turntable by hand in front of me, and tested it on their store Hi-Fi to insure me that it was functional to my satisfaction.

 He then charged me thirty dollars"_


----------



## jtaylor991

Yeah I was thinking the same thing, but then the microscope thing turned me off. I'll head over, thanks!
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> From that first review, I'd take the chance:
> 
> _"The REAL magic of It's a Beautiful Day, however, comes by way of it's electronic repair staff. After complimenting the quality of my turntable, the repair man offered an array of replacement parts of varying prices. He explained with expert knowledge and detail the attributes of each part by manufacturer, use, and price.
> 
> ...


----------



## Clayton SF

Boy does this photo show dust, dust, dust.
  I immediately dusted off the plinth after this shot.
  No plinth was harmed during the dust-off.
  Music Hall MMF-9.1 with Denon DL-160
  (Why they would discontinue manufacturing a perfectly great low-cost cartridge I have no idea.)


----------



## Maxvla

Temporary setup while waiting for the Stax energizer and headphones. May end up moving all my audio stuff to the living room again, but this is a handy setup.

PL720 > SX-9 (phono stage -> preamp outs) > WA6 > UERM

Odd mix of old and new tech.

Forgive the crappy phone pics. I never seem to have good pictures... ever.


----------



## Skylab

Very nice, Max and CLayton!


----------



## jtaylor991

OK so I went to that shop, and the guy said both needles were great. He dropped one on the floor, but I had too before we went (on carpet but this was hard floor), then mounted my cartridge on a cruddy store turntable and played out loud on the speakers and said both tips sounded great, and he said that if the needle was bad enough condition to damage the record, it would probably fall off, and then it wouldn't play at all. "Yeah it's a diamond tip, it can take a lot"
  Does this guy sound credible? Oh yeah, when he lifted and placed the needle, the bass was so low the glass in the place would clink etc. lol
  Like a 60s hippie shop kinda place. Records, 8tracks, tshirts, bumper stickers, some books, etc. And an Akai reel to reel player for $75 
  A guy sold them his old receiver, so I might take in some old Yamaha equipment and one of my casette decks and see if I can trade for it and some other store credit
  Anyway, back on track:
   
  The guy was really nice and looked like he knew what he was doing, but should I trust that my needles are OK without a microscope? I had one record I brought in that had a lot of sibilance for some reason and the digital counterpart did not, and he played it in the back (the front one he used first was too old to play 45s ) and I pointed it out, and he said yeah well the record is probably right and the mp3 was probably wrong, and he also agreed with me that it could be that the track wasn't remastered for vinyl, since I believe it was digital release first.


----------



## Skylab

I dunno. The part about the needle falling off before it would damage the record is complete bunk. But if everything was sounding good, then I guess I wouldn't worry.


----------



## grokit

Did he charge you anything? Hopefully you at least bought an LP


----------



## jtaylor991

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I dunno. The part about the needle falling off before it would damage the record is complete bunk. But if everything was sounding good, then I guess I wouldn't worry.


 
  I was thinking the same thing. I'm glad my peace of mind is restored.
  
   


  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Did he charge you anything? Hopefully you at least bought an LP


 

 Nope, didn't cost me a dime while my other store wanted $75 bench fee before they did anything 
  And no, I didn't buy anything, and I asked if he would be offended if I didn't buy anything *today*, and he said nah, and I explained how I had spent like a couple hundred bucks on music the past month or two, but I don't know that he heard me. But, I made sure that he knew that I would be back, and I definitely will. I might have them mount my next cartridge, sell/trade some stereo equipment for that reel-to-reel and some records, and I'll buy some too. Unless I find that their records are super expensive, which I highly doubt, then I might just become a regular customer there. Plus, I think they have a listening station, so I could definitely kill some time there and really get into shopping


----------



## grokit

And THAT is how business is DONE (by creating good will). Sounds like a cool place!


----------



## jtaylor991

Yeah it was! In an un-offensive way, it was like a 60s hippie shop, with all the Coexist and Make Love Not War bumper stickers and stuff, worry dolls from Germany  or somewhere (tell them your problems and they will go away! haha gotta love em), books, tshirts, music playing, records of course, 8 track tapes, nice smell in there. They even put a sign on the door "We DO NOT sell incense or bath salts (9 groom etc) because they are not healthy and we do not recommend our fellow humans to consume/use them." It was pretty cool. 
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> And THAT is how business is DONE (by creating good will). Sounds like a cool place!


----------



## KT66

LP12/Ekos2/Lyra Clavis DC/Cirkus/Lingo2 into Linto


----------



## KT66

also one of Ernies beds, massive cat


----------



## jtaylor991

I'm too lazy to re-do everything at 3am here sitting in my bedroom, so I hope it's OK to just link to my other post. Here's my vinyl rig, everything typed up and explained:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/529140/show-us-your-head-fi-station-at-its-current-state-no-old-pictures-please/4485#post_8178564


----------



## J.Pocalypse

This isn't mine, and I didn't make the gif, I just thought those around could appreciate it.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





j.pocalypse said:


> This isn't mine, and I didn't make the gif, I just thought those around could appreciate it.


 

 Fantastic!


----------



## calipilot227

Spinning pretty fast!


----------



## Julian H

My main rig


----------



## Borgbox

That is gorgeous
  Quote: 





julian h said:


> My main rig
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Julian H

Why thank you Sir, you are obviously a man of great taste!


----------



## RazorJack

Nothing fancy here, though still pretty good sounding


----------



## grokit

Does anybody have any experience with one of these?
   

   
   The Audio-Technica AT-LP240 sure likes it has the same tonearm/mechanics as Denon's DP-A100 "anniversary model", but without automatic operation and for about 1/5 the price.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Are you spinning Selected Ambient 85-92? I just picked that up...or is that Selected Ambient II? I'm waiting on a call from my importer on that one (should come in this week). I should've just pre-ordered on Amazon.
   
  Great looking table. Technics have a special place in my heart.
  
  Quote: 





razorjack said:


> Nothing fancy here, though still pretty good sounding


 

 That's one of my favorites in the whole thread. Fantastic.
  
  Quote: 





julian h said:


> My main rig


----------



## RazorJack

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Are you spinning Selected Ambient 85-92? I just picked that up...or is that Selected Ambient II? I'm waiting on a call from my importer on that one (should come in this week). I should've just pre-ordered on Amazon.
> 
> Great looking table. Technics have a special place in my heart.


 
   
   
  It's Selected Ambient Works 85-92. Side A, playing Xtal 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
   
  Although I think I got some shady bootleg version, not the official remastered 2006 version on R&S, and definitely not the original 1992 first press on Apollo. 
   
  Listening to this song is always an enchanting experience for me, from the first second until it fades out, regardless of mood or emotion. Deep, powerful stuff, what rare a timeless classic, I'm gonna spin it again right now!
  The rest of the album is also top notch, and so is SAW2, but I never really got into his other stuff, too much Warp-weirdness for my tastes... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I love my 1210, combined with a sub-$100 cartridge and a DIY phono pre-amp it makes a pretty sweet sounding (mid-fi?) LP rig!


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





razorjack said:


> I love my 1210, combined with a sub-$100 cartridge and a DIY phono pre-amp it makes a pretty sweet sounding (mid-fi?) LP rig!


 



 I love my turntable as much as anyone can (anyone normal, at least), but I don't ever fool myself that it is hi-fi. IMO, vinyl is mid-fi at best, no matter how expensive your rig is. My Pioneer specs are .035% wow and flutter, 80 dB S/N ratio (very similar to your SL-1200, which is very nice by the way). Those were good numbers back in the day, but nowhere near what we have today.
   
  I enjoy my turntable for nostalgic reasons (the opening and cleaning ritual, watching the tonearm ride the groove, etc.) and for playing albums that aren't available on CD, MOG, etc. I like how my turntable sounds, but with a good converter, digital is vastly superior (poor mastering notwithstanding).
   
  Nothing wrong with mid-fi. I've heard hi-fi and I don't like the diminishing returns on the dollar it takes to get that last 2% of sound quality. The top of the middle is where it's at!


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> Nothing wrong with mid-fi. I've heard hi-fi and I don't like the diminishing returns on the dollar it takes to get that last 2% of sound quality. The top of the middle is where it's at!


 

 Amen to that! (I think I just heard my wallet breathe a sigh of relief 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## RazorJack

Agreed, although I always let my ears decide, not specs


----------



## DrewHulva

Technics SL-D5... Yeah that's an original pressing of Buddha by Blink-182. College in Chicago is much more bearable with all of my childhood memories on vinyl.
  Any other dorm setups?


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





drewhulva said:


> Any other dorm setups?


 

 See mine on page 26 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Nice TT btw


----------



## DrewHulva

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> See mine on page 26
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Nice tt! I appreciate college setups. We really make the most of our money! Or what money we have.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





drewhulva said:


> Nice tt! I appreciate college setups. We really make the most of our money! *Or what money we have.*


 

 Exactly. It's not about having a high income, rather it's about using what money you do have in the most efficient way possible


----------



## sbradley02

Just got mine back in operation


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





sbradley02 said:


> Just got mine back in operation


 

 Love it! Such a beautiful deck. Is it a Transcriptor?


----------



## sbradley02

Thanks for the kind words.
  Yes, a Skeleton. The case is all glass. Mine is rather non-stock, the main thing I did to get it working again was to replace the arm (which was already non-original) with a Mitchell RB250 arm. I don't do much vinyl any more but I have had the table for almost 20 years and I think it is neatest piece of equipment I have so wanted to get it working again. I am sure most any decent new turntable would outperform it but for me it is about the aesthetics - and the model was featured in X-Men First Class  
  
  Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Love it! Such a beautiful deck. Is it a Transcriptor?


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





sbradley02 said:


> Thanks for the kind words.
> Yes, a Skeleton. The case is all glass. Mine is rather non-stock, the main thing I did to get it working again was to replace the arm (which was already non-original) with a Mitchell RB250 arm. I don't do much vinyl any more but I have had the table for almost 20 years and I think it is neatest piece of equipment I have so wanted to get it working again. I am sure most any decent new turntable would outperform it but for me it is about the aesthetics - and the model was featured in X-Men First Class


 

 I hope it sounds as good as it looks


----------



## Blurr

My Kenwood KD 2055 in original state with NAD PP2i phono stage.


----------



## J.Pocalypse

I don't understand.. Why do some turntables have more than one arm?


----------



## palmfish

The other arm is a brush


----------



## MorbidToaster

j.pocalypse said:


> I don't understand.. Why do some turntables have more than one arm?




Different sound signatures, easy A/Bing, etc.


----------



## MorbidToaster

palmfish said:


> Te other arm is a cleaning/anti-static brush




That's cool too. Lol


----------



## sbradley02

It does sound very nice indeed, better I think than an almost 40 year old turntable has any right to, though unfortunately my system is optimized for digital so I can't get the full sound quality it is capable of.
  Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> I hope it sounds as good as it looks


----------



## Blurr

Quote: 





j.pocalypse said:


> I don't understand.. Why do some turntables have more than one arm?


 

 If you are referring to my picture, it is indeed a brush/roller, I drop the brush on the record before I lower the tone arm on it, it is brilliant in that I never have to clean my stylus this way cause all of the dust will get caught in the between  brush and static roller combinations on the arm. I just need to clean the roller from time to time, but much less of a bother then having to clean the stylus every session.


----------



## sbradley02

What's the brand? Doesn't look like a Dust Bug.
  
  Quote: 





blurr said:


> If you are referring to my picture, it is indeed a brush/roller, I drop the brush on the record before I lower the tone arm on it, it is brilliant in that I never have to clean my stylus this way cause all of the dust will get caught in the between  brush and static roller combinations on the arm. I just need to clean the roller from time to time, but much less of a bother then having to clean the stylus every session.


----------



## Maxvla

Another reason for multiple arms is a dedicated 78 cartridge arm, but of course the drive needs to be capable of that speed also.


----------



## palmfish

I saw one of those old turntables with the flippable cartridges at a garage sale last week. I remembered this thread and had to play with it for a few minutes.


----------



## Blurr

Quote: 





sbradley02 said:


> What's the brand? Doesn't look like a Dust Bug.


 
  It is brandless as far as I can tell, I did not originally put it there, I know they can be had online for around €20


----------



## Maxvla

Thanks again to Skylab and others, but I decided not to pursue vinyl. Selling my cart and albums I picked up in the classifieds if anyone is interested.


----------



## jr41

My Rega RP3 with recently installed Ortofon 2M Bronze MM cartridge and Groovetracer upgrades (click images to see larger versions).
   
Groovertracer Delrin Platter​ ​   
​  ​  ​  ​ Groovertracer Reference Sub platter ​ ​  ​ ​  ​ Groovetracer Counterweight​ ​  ​ ​  ​ Ortofon 2M Bronze MM Cartridge​ ​  ​ ​  ​ ​  ​  Before installing the 2M Bronze (the table came with a Rega Elys 2 cartridge originally) and Groovetracer upgrades, I was happy with the performance, as it let me enjoy that 'vinyl sound', but in terms of resolution and clarity I felt my digital setup still trumped it.
   
  The 2M Bronze changed that though - what an improvement over the Elys 2! I can now enjoy the sound of vinyl with greater clarity and resolution than my digital setup. I installed the Groovetracer upgrades together - after installing the 2M Bronze, so I can't say which upgrade provided the biggest improvement/change in sound, but as a set they have served to further enhance the sound by providing additional clarity, resolution and a blacker background. You can now safely call me a vinyl convert!


----------



## MorbidToaster

You posted this just to upset me. lol

I'll probably just buy mine stock with no cart and the Bronze in the same order. I'm really looking forward to it but it's a few months off as I think I'll get my DAC first.


----------



## jr41

Quote:


morbidtoaster said:


> You posted this just to upset me. lol
> I'll probably just buy mine stock with no cart and the Bronze in the same order. I'm really looking forward to it but it's a few months off as I think I'll get my DAC first.


 

 Ha ha 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The Bronze made the biggest difference in sound and I wouldn't bother with the Ely 2 personally, so I'd say that's a smart move.


----------



## J.Pocalypse

Great photos!
  
  Quote: 





jr41 said:


> My Rega RP3 with recently installed Ortofon 2M Bronze MM cartridge and Groovetracer upgrades


----------



## roker

So as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I purchased a Thorens 190 at a junk shop.  The people at the shop kind of had an idea of it's worth as it was priced at $50 firm (trust me, I'm a haggler, but these guys weren't going to budge no matter what).  All this with no AC adapter.  I bought it on a whim.
   
  Took it home.  Found an old adapter, plugged it in, and it spun!  No stylus or preamp though.
   
  Ok, so fast fwd to 6 or so weeks later:
   
  Cleaned it as good as I could.  Fixed the corners.  I even went as far as taking some of it apart to oil and clean it (the motor and other moving parts that apply).
   
  Replaced the cartridge with a Shure M97xE (replacing the stylus for the stock Otofon OMB 10 seemed more trouble than it's worth), replaced the belt, bought an entry level preamp, replaced the headshell wires (such a pain), and then I spent this past weekend lightly sanding the heavy scratches on dust cover.
   

   
  I used the novus 1,2,3 compounds and went to work.  After a few hours this is what it looked like:
   

   
  I kind of wish I didn't sand as much. While removed most of them, some remain and are only still there because I ran out of Novus no 2.  It was a pain polishing, then repolishing, over and over again. Here's it is on the turntable:
   

   
  I think at this point I'm going to take a break or just stop restoring it.  There's still some things I'd like to do but I'm in no rush since it's in fine working order now.  If I do ever get around to it, this is what I'd do:
   
  -Realign the auto tone arm mechanism.  It drops a little too close to the right edge of the record causing it to fall sometimes.  Good thing it can be used manually but even then I'd like to figure out how to adjust the height because some records are thicker and lightly touch the stylus.  I wish there was a step by step booklet on repairing/maintaining these tables.
   
  -Rewire it the RCAs and replace the headshell wires.  The RCAs are hardwired.  I took it apart and even for a person such as I, the soldering job looks pretty direct and easy. 
   
  Otherwise, it's good to go.  Polishing the dust cover is killer, but if you guys decide to do it, I would get more of the Novus no. 2 than the other ones.  3 seemed like a waste and 1 seems to be just an alcohol based cleaner.  All the polishing I did was with 2.
   
  I'm sure I might have spent more than it's probably worth but the experience has been great.  I learned a lot in the process and hearing/seeing the end result makes it worth the trouble.  I'm pretty sure had I bought the Pro-Ject turntable I was drooling over initially, I wouldn't have had the same appreciating for turntables the way I do now.  
   
  I looked up old reviews of the turntable as I was looking for as much info as I could get.  By the way, my particular table was built between 1993-1994 it seems.  The feedback seemed a bit mixed from some critics/users (half-automatic or any automatic scares people usually), but there are some things about it that are really nifty:
   
  -Made in Germany (ok ok, nothing wrong with the China stuff, but it's nice to see the Made in Germany etching on the turntable). 
   
  -Suspended platter driven by a Dual motor (3 speeds)
   
  -Solid wood base.  It doesn't appear like it, but underneath the black laminate is a very good base.
   
  I have yet to hear a hint of the motor running.  By far one of the quietest turntables I've ever heard and unless I tap the turntable or stomp hard next to it, vibrations rarely affect playback.  Anyway, hope you enjoyed this read.  I should probably post this in my blog.


----------



## RazorJack

Great job, I wish I had the skills/time to work on my turntable like that!
  The only thing I still plan to do if I ever get around to it, is replace the cables on my 1210, they're also hard-wired. Turns out it's possible to wire the cables in such a way that there's no need for an external ground connection to the pre-amp, I think I'm gonna try that. 
  The guy I bought it from said his cat nibbled on the left channel cable, so it broke and he replaced the plug. But it doesn't look very sturdy, the whole thing looks like it can fall apart any second.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





j.pocalypse said:


> Great photos!


 

 X2, also it was nice to hear about the 2m Bronze.


----------



## jr41

Quote:


grokit said:


> X2, also it was nice to hear about the 2m Bronze.


 

 Thanks both. There doesn't seem to be so many owners of the Bronze out there, it's the other three in the range which get all the attention.


----------



## Skylab

I have a 2M Bronze on my Pioneer PL-530 in my vintage rig. The 2M is indeed a very fine cartridge, and a very good value for its price. It is the least expensive cartridge I have on any of my four turntables, but I still think it sounds really good and like listening to it. It's not a warm/lush pickup - its more on the neutral and bold side of things, but it's not bright, just not at all soft or romantic. In the right system, a really great choice.


----------



## MorbidToaster

skylab said:


> I have a 2M Bronze on my Pioneer PL-530 in my vintage rig. The 2M is indeed a very fine cartridge, and a very good value for its price. It is the least expensive cartridge I have on any of my four turntables, but I still think it sounds really good and like listening to it. It's not a warm/lush pickup - its more on the neutral and bold side of things, but it's not bright, just not at all soft or romantic. In the right system, a really great choice.




Good to hear. It sounds like it would match my system fairly well as my LCD 2 and upcoming MMGs are considered 'musical'. The Bronze sounds like it would bring out detail nicely.


----------



## jr41

Quote:


skylab said:


> [...] It's not a warm/lush pickup - its more on the neutral and bold side of things, but it's not bright, just not at all soft or romantic. In the right system, a really great choice.


 
   
  Sums it up in a nutshell I think! Ortofon's tag line for their hi-fi range of cartridges is 'accuracy in sound'. Based on my exposure with the Bronze, I think this describes their philosophy well. Ortofon seem to be a company who take vinyl playback seriously and consider the medium as a viable contender to any other - they're not trying to create a 'nostalgic sound' that panders to the rosy preconceptions of the vinyl sound signature.


----------



## palmfish

I'm thinking about a new cartridge for my TT. I have the Shure M97xE right now and while it sounds good, I think it is a little bit on the lush side for my tastes.
   
  I'm looking for something with a little more sparkle. Do you think the Ortofon is a good choice? I've read that the Denon DL-103 might also be a good choice.


----------



## Skylab

The Shure is a nice cartridge for the money - I have one, and have for years, although its just a backup, I don't use it much. It is definitely on the warm and fuzzy side. Never offensive, but not really impressive either. If you want something more detailed and less warm, the Ortofon 2M series is a good place to look.

I think the Denon DL-103 is a terrific pickup, owned one for a long time. But it is a VERY low output moving coil, so you better have a MC phono stage that is very quiet, and that has some flexibility in terms of loading options, as the DL-103 likes a 100 ohm loading.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The Shure is a nice cartridge for the money - I have one, and have for years, although its just a backup, I don't use it much. It is definitely on the warm and fuzzy side. Never offensive, but not really impressive either. If you want something more detailed and less warm, the Ortofon 2M series is a good place to look.
> I think the Denon DL-103 is a terrific pickup, owned one for a long time. But it is a VERY low output moving coil, so you better have a MC phono stage that is very quiet, and that has some flexibility in terms of loading options, as the DL-103 likes a 100 ohm loading.


 


  Thanks. My receiver has a MC preamp but I don't know it's specs. I'll look into it.


----------



## calipilot227

I might just pull the trigger on a Shure M97 for my PL-518. Everyone seems to like it, and it's in a price range that I can afford. I'll look into the Novus 2 since my dustcover is a scratched up mess (but for $50 on Craigslist, I'm not gonna complain 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).


----------



## MorbidToaster

calipilot227 said:


> I might just pull the trigger on a Shure M97 for my PL-518. Everyone seems to like it, and it's in a price range that I can afford. I'll look into the Novus 2 since my dustcover is a scratched up mess (but for $50 on Craigslist, I'm not gonna complain
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm going to replace my 518 soon but in the meantime I think I'm going to pop a 2M Red on it and then keep it as a backup when I get my P3 and a Bronze.

On that topic...anyone know whether the Red will fit the stock 518 shell just fine? I think it will.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I'm going to replace my 518 soon but in the meantime I think I'm going to pop a 2M Red on it and then keep it as a backup when I get my P3 and a Bronze.
> On that topic...anyone know whether the Red will fit the stock 518 shell just fine? I think it will.


 

 If it's a standard 1/2" mount (mine is), then it should fit just fine.


----------



## roker

Quote: 





razorjack said:


> Great job, I wish I had the skills/time to work on my turntable like that!


 
   
  thanks!
   
  You know, these aren't the most complicated forms of machinery out there.  I think just as the DIY'ers on this site encourage people to build their own amps to understand them better, I'd also like to throw my hat in the ring and encourage people to rescue/restore these otherwise neglected forms of hi-fi audio.  It's definitely a good way to spend a lazy Sunday.  
   
  I think I may still buy another turntable just because I love them so much.  But for right now, this is my main rig.


----------



## Skylab

Setting up a turntable properly is sure easier than building your own amps! MUCH easier. Just requires a few very basic tools, some reading, and some practice.


----------



## sbradley02

I had a friend buy the Bronze. I was swayed by the TAS review which likened the 2M line to the much lamented Shure V15-VMR, one of which I still have on my Transcriptors, with a new SAS stylus.
  
  Quote: 





jr41 said:


> Thanks both. There doesn't seem to be so many owners of the Bronze out there, it's the other three in the range which get all the attention.


----------



## jtaylor991

I have that cartridge in a plastic baggie now (stylus already ruined). My local record store looked at it and said the stylus was just ruined, trahsed etc. (the tip is rounded off and splitting in two somehow, idk how that happened lol). I could get a new stylus for it for $50, but I can't be sure the rubber pieces and other inner workings of the cartridge are working and worth risking my $50 on, so now I have the silver $30 Ortofon Omega cartridge, and for the price it is great. Surely more detail and soundstage could be retrieved, but for this price I am satisfied.
  
  Quote: 





sbradley02 said:


> I had a friend buy the Bronze. I was swayed by the TAS review which likened the 2M line to the much lamented Shure V15-VMR, one of which I still have on my Transcriptors, with a new SAS stylus.


----------



## jtaylor991

Do the Groovetracer upgrades make a big difference? Is the Reference Sub platter worth it?
  
  Quote: 





jr41 said:


> My Rega RP3 with recently installed Ortofon 2M Bronze MM cartridge and Groovetracer upgrades (click images to see larger versions).
> 
> ​  ​  ​ Groovertracer Reference Sub platter ​ ​  ​ ​  ​ Groovetracer Counterweight​ ​  ​ ​  ​ Ortofon 2M Bronze MM Cartridge​  ​  ​  ​  ​  ​  ​  Before installing the 2M Bronze (the table came with a Rega Elys 2 cartridge originally) and Groovetracer upgrades, I was happy with the performance, as it let me enjoy that 'vinyl sound', but in terms of resolution and clarity I felt my digital setup still trumped it.
> 
> The 2M Bronze changed that though - what an improvement over the Elys 2! I can now enjoy the sound of vinyl with greater clarity and resolution than my digital setup. I installed the Groovetracer upgrades together - after installing the 2M Bronze, so I can't say which upgrade provided the biggest improvement/change in sound, but as a set they have served to further enhance the sound by providing additional clarity, resolution and a blacker background. You can now safely call me a vinyl convert!


----------



## jtaylor991

(sorry for two questions in a row)
   
  So, I played a really dirty 45 record on my new stylus and first it skipped off the edge onto the mat (twice, the first time for a few seconds even), and it looked a tiny bit shorter but still sharp. I then played the record, and now the tip seems half as short (if not less) as it originally was, and a bit less sharp. Do I already need a new stylus? Sheesh, vinyl is pissing me off. I'm enjoying a few reel to reel tapes I've gotten from eBay in the meantime.


----------



## Skylab

Honestly that doesn't sound good. I'm afraid you probably wrecked the stylus. And I hate to say it, but you really shouldn't play "really dirty records". To be into vinyl is to be committed to cleaning records. Otherwise they won't sound good anyway, and the hobby can get expensive, for sure.

Reel to reel definitely kicks butt though  What reel deck did you get?


----------



## jtaylor991

Akai GX-230D. I got it and my current stylus I spoke of free with a trade of some stereo equipment I had on a shelf in my basement as a trade at that store I talked about earlier in the thread. He said he got it up and running, and indeed, but I think further service wouldn't hurt. New and/or demagnetized heads maybe, and it won't record. When I record, it erases but nothing is recorded. And when I play tapes backwards only the left channel works, so on a couple I've had to get them off the reel and then put the tape in one of the slashes on the side (you know those things?) and have it folded and play the tape backwards . I need a splicing kit too, I broke one tape a bit into the first track. Scotch tape was working, but I know it's bad for the heads and it will leak over time, etc so when it came apart today I just left it alone.
   
  I know that, but I played this "really dirty record" because I have a big box of 45s and another pile of used records and I was listening to see which ones I would keep, and I would clean as well. The no-keepers I wouldn't waste use of my brushes, fluid and time to clean them. Shucks, I'm like broke now from buying music, so I guess again it'll be awhile before I can listen to vinyl.
   
  But, the guy did say that my old tip might be OK after he stretched the needle back out. Apparently it had been shoved up into the rest of the tip (this is apart from the cartridge, so that's not it in case you were thinking that). Like it was a bit bent back and he straightened it.
   
  So, could this tip be OK for playing the really dirty records or would it still mess them up?
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Honestly that doesn't sound good. I'm afraid you probably wrecked the stylus. And I hate to say it, but you really shouldn't play "really dirty records". To be into vinyl is to be committed to cleaning records. Otherwise they won't sound good anyway, and the hobby can get expensive, for sure.
> Reel to reel definitely kicks butt though
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Skylab

Unfortunately there is no way for me to say. But for I can tell you I wouldn't use it on any record I cared about.


----------



## MohawkUS

I did the same thing recently. I didn't have a record cleaning brush at the time, and I was listening to some new records I have. Unfortunately the B side seems to gather quite a bit of dust while I'm playing the A side, and I wasn't paying much attention to it. Once I got to the B side of the second half the album, the needle was caked in dust and it just skidded right across the record. I think it may have left a scratch on the record, but I'm not really sure. The table isn't really in the best of shape itself, it has a rhythmic thumping noise whenever it's playing a record and a loud static whenever it's not, which I think may be a muting circuit gone bad. It's a supposedly restored Dual 1209. Seeing as the rubber mat around the edge of the platter is coming unglued I'm not so sure that it was restored at all.


----------



## Skylab

The Dual 1209 was a popular turntable in its day, but it is a pretty old deck even by vintage TT standards...even one that was restored could have developed a problem, especially the kind you describe, because that Dual used an idler wheel drive system, and if anything is out of whack with he idler wheel, it could make a thumping sound (not sure what to attitude the loud static to, though).


----------



## jr41

Quote: 





mohawkus said:


> The table isn't really in the best of shape itself, it has a rhythmic thumping noise whenever it's playing a record and a loud static whenever it's not, which I think may be a muting circuit gone bad. It's a supposedly restored Dual 1209. Seeing as the rubber mat around the edge of the platter is coming unglued I'm not so sure that it was restored at all.


 

 RE the static, is the tonearm properly earthed?


----------



## sbradley02

Age in and of itself shouldn't disqualify a turntable from performing well. My Transcriptors is from the same era and performs great.
  I see your point though on the Dual, the idler wheel system could be problematic. This looks like it should be replaced.
  Parts are here: http://www.fixmydual.com/
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> The Dual 1209 was a popular turntable in its day, but it is a pretty old deck even by vintage TT standards...even one that was restored could have developed a problem, especially the kind you describe, because that Dual used an idler wheel drive system, and if anything is out of whack with he idler wheel, it could make a thumping sound (not sure what to attitude the loud static to, though).


----------



## Skylab

Oh I agree...I myself have three turntables that range from 25-35 years old, and they are all absolutely outstanding. But they were all higher-end models that were better built than the Dual 1209. Both belt drive and direct drive are very likely to be more trouble free than an old idler wheel drive system is going to be.


----------



## sbradley02

I looked at fixmydual.com again and saw that they do a complete service for $135 including common parts which seems like a great price. That would probably be the best bet for someone who wanted to restore theirs.
  I have never had a Dual but I still remember my first turntable (as a teenager), a Garrard SLX-2. I think it is fairly similar to the Dual.
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Oh I agree...I myself have three turntables that range from 25-35 years old, and they are all absolutely outstanding. But they were all higher-end models that were better built than the Dual 1209. Both belt drive and direct drive are very likely to be more trouble free than an old idler wheel drive system is going to be.


----------



## MohawkUS

I'm trying to get in contact with the guy who sold me the table, I've talked to him before and he's a pretty nice guy. I'm thinking the damage might have been done in shipping even though he is only 30 minutes away. He had it shipped through a local auctioneer though, so it may not have been packed properly. I'm going to have to agree that it's probably the idler at fault. When I run the table at 78RPM the whole thing shakes and the noise comes from the table itself as opposed to through the headphones at lower speeds.

 As for the static, I believe Dual tables have a muting circuit that stops any noise from playing through the speakers while it's not currently playing. Maybe it has a loop somewhere in the circuit because I know for a fact that it does not work as I've accidently bumped the needle putting on a record and I heard it loud and clear. The static is gone with a click as the needle touches down to a record.

 I'm afraid I'm not really on good terms with the guy at fixmydual. I was originally going to get a table from him, but I didn't have the money for it at the time and went for the 1209 off ebay(local seller, what could go wrong?  ) I contacted him inquiring about buying a single play spindle and he never returned my email.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah, shipping vintage turntables is a bit dicey even if you know exactly what you are doing. The MOST important thing is the platter MUST be removed for shipping. And yet I have several times received turntables that were shipped with the platter in place. That is just asking for trouble.

I know you know this now, but for the benefit of others who might read this, it would have been better to have driven the 30 minutes to pick it up...


----------



## MohawkUS

skylab said:


> Yeah, shipping vintage turntables is a bit dicey even if you know exactly what you are doing. The MOST important thing is the platter MUST be removed for shipping. And yet I have several times received turntables that were shipped with the platter in place. That is just asking for trouble.
> I know you know this now, but for the benefit of others who might read this, it would have been better to have driven the 30 minutes to pick it up...




Yes, I mentioned to the seller about removing the platter before I bought it and they assured me they knew how to ship turntables. Unfortunately they did not remove it, I should have requested a refund, but at the time I was having a ground looping issue with the receiver and couldn't hear the thumping noise over the static and distortion so I didn't know there was a problem. I'm still a bit new to the whole vinyl thing, I'm hoping that I can get some kind of resolution with the tech who restored it, at the moment our communication is going through the auction site though, the guy who restored it doesn't own a computer apparently.


----------



## brokenthumb

Here is my little setup.  Music Hall MMF 2.2 (Piano Black) with Acrylic Platter and a Bren1 Clamp.


----------



## Borgbox

Quote: 





brokenthumb said:


> Here is my little setup.  Music Hall MMF 2.2 (Piano Black) with Acrylic Platter and a Bren1 Clamp.


 


  Beautiful! What's the album?


----------



## brokenthumb

Thanks!  The album is KCRW's Morning Becomes Eclectic by Florence + The Machine


----------



## philspins

Yamaha PF-800 with Denon DL-301 MKII

   
  Mitsubishi LT-30 with Denon DL-301 MKII

   
  TOTL suspended belt and DD linear tracking tables (respectively) from the early 80s.  Just got the LT-30 a few weeks ago and moved it into the main system, the PF-800 is now upstairs in the office to become part of my in progress headphone system.
   
  Before anyone asks (because I am always asked this!) the batteries power the phono stage, which is DIY, and have already been cleaned up and moved to a box on the lower shelf.


----------



## roker

nifty looking table.  I'd like to see it in action.


----------



## jtaylor991

Hopefully some of you can help me with my vinyl cleaning brush dilemma. I make a deal out of it because I just want it to last a while, not a temporary thing planning to upgrade to a Nitty Gritty or VPI etc. in the near future, but like 1-2 yrs down the line.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/603071/cleaning-vinyl#post_8261869


----------



## jtaylor991

OK well I got yet another stylus today, determined to make it last, and I cleaned a bunch of my 45s, and I cleaned one and dried with a regular hand towel (other cloths were wet) and played it, and it looks like it messed up my stylus, but how can that be?! I cleaned it! It sounded terrible, so it was obviously in bad condition, but isit possible for a clean record to wear down a stylus like that after 30secs? My dad was like "Oh my god, you're being too sensitive, don't worry about it!" and I wanna believe him. I hope it's OK, but I played one of my records and it sounded kinda harsh in the highs, but that could be the record from my previous tip (or maybe it was always like that, I don't remember). I don't wanna make my Dad drive out there again, so should I just use it or what? Is it probably just fine?


----------



## palmfish

jtaylor991 said:


> OK well I got yet another stylus today, determined to make it last, and I cleaned a bunch of my 45s, and I cleaned one and dried with a regular hand towel (other cloths were wet) and played it, and it looks like it messed up my stylus, but how can that be?! I cleaned it! It sounded terrible, so it was obviously in bad condition, but isit possible for a clean record to wear down a stylus like that after 30secs? My dad was like "Oh my god, you're being too sensitive, don't worry about it!" and I wanna believe him. I hope it's OK, but I played one of my records and it sounded kinda harsh in the highs, but that could be the record from my previous tip (or maybe it was always like that, I don't remember). I don't wanna make my Dad drive out there again, so should I just use it or what? Is it probably just fine?




Is your cartridge aligned properly?


----------



## jtaylor991

I played Side B on Common's "Be" album and everything sounded good, and I looked at the tip and it looked sharp to me, so either the record carved it back into shape (obviously not the case) or the issue was all placebo. I'm still not messing with those 45s...


----------



## jtaylor991

I had my previous record store do it when I had it repaired and I haven't changed it, so unless I accidentally moved it when attaching and detaching styli, yes it is. And see my previous post, I apparently clicked submit as you did
  
  Quote: 





palmfish said:


> Is your cartridge aligned properly?


----------



## jtaylor991

Also, I wanted to ask: Is it ok to use like a regular hand or bath towel to dry records vs the supplied cleaning cloths with my Spin Clean? These towels would be rougher yes but it's still fabric, could it scratch the records??


----------



## Skylab

The issue there is that bath towels often have a lot of lint they could deposit on the record, even if the towels have just been washed and dried.


----------



## RazorJack

yeah, it's generally really a bad idea to use anything that could leave little traces and particles behind on your vinyl. I learned that the hard way as well, when I tried cleaning one with toilet paper and also a cloth...
  it's best to invest those [size=small]€[/size]5 in a decent record cleaning brush 
   
  Here's another little question for the more experienced vinyl freaks. Shouldn't one have to re-adjust the anti-skate for 33 rpm and 45 rpm? I believe the centripetal force scales up with angular velocity (or revolutions per minute, rpm), if I remember my physics lectures correctly. So for 45 rpm the needle will be forced more inwards if you don't compensate the anti-skate when it was set up at 33 rpm. 
   
  Not that I ever do it, I set it correctly for 33 rpm a while ago. I just hope I'm not destroying my 45 rpm LP's... But they sound fine. Was just wondering, seeing as though there's almost twice as much force acting on the needle: (45/33)^2 = 1,85.


----------



## Eee Pee

Within my almost 20 years playing records, I've never come across that question or thought before.  Though it makes sense to me.  Interesting.  Though, that might be, well actually yes this is why, is because I have a VPI JMW arm without the anti-skate attachment, using just the wire coil twist that VPI has.  So anti-skate isn't much of a tweak I can make.  And really, it's always been either a hair too much, or a hair not enough.  So I'm like, alright, stop caring about it.  I can't remember if the Audioquest arm or SOTA arm/table I had have that adjustment or not.  If so, it was probably just set to match a number for the tracking force.  If it's 2, then turn the dial to 2.
   
  I've read some say it's gotta be PERFECT!  Others don't care so much about anti-skate.  Similar to Rega downplaying VTA adjustments with their arms.
   

   
  Sorry, I'm of no help, but you could be onto something.  Or not.


----------



## jtaylor991

I used to play some 45s (the ones I talked about earlier) and I'd put the needle on and if I didn't go like 30secs into the record the needle would fly off the record onto the rubber mat (after many occurrences of this I replaced the needle, very first one of the three I've talked about). I upped the anti-skate a bit (almost at max now) and not I don't have to go in so far but the outer edge before the record starts still doesn't hold the needle.Oh lord, now I wonder if my anti skate is right and if it's messing up my records...


----------



## J-Pak

My Nottingham Spacedeck and Zyx R50 Bloom (click to biggify)


----------



## grokit

Nice, J-Pak. Those were definitely worth a Google search!


----------



## Eee Pee

Couple new ones from VPI.  
   
  Entry level, new tonearm design, aluminum platter.
   
  http://www.vpiindustries.com/table-traveler.htm
   

   
   
  The other, a Classic 4.  Notice two tonearms.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Why does this always happen? Someone buys the stuff I'm looking at buying and posts pictures to taunt me. 
   
  Happened with my Calyx 24/192, and now it happened with the Nottingham. 
   
  Either way...I'm really looking forward to the say that deck hits my doorstep.
  
  Quote: 





j-pak said:


> My Nottingham Spacedeck and Zyx R50 Bloom (click to biggify)


----------



## cedman1

Still building system, so far systemdek, Linn and oracle


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





cedman1 said:


> Still building system, so far systemdek, Linn and oracle


 
   
  Beautiful! I love the Oracle deck. I guess I just have a thing for glass, haha. Or is that just the shelf that it sits on?
   
  On a side note, 999 posts (Nein Nein Nein!!!!)


----------



## TheWuss

just bought a VPI classic (in black) with Dynavector XX-2 mk.2 cartridge.


----------



## lungStruck

My budget system: Audio-Technica AT-PL120 turntable w/ Shure M97xE cartridge.  Not "Audiophile" quality, but sounds good to me.


----------



## calipilot227

Just slapped that cartridge on my PL-518. I didn't realize how bad my 30 year old Stanton cartridge was until I tried the M97


----------



## headgear4me

Beautiful turntable,the best in my honest opinion .


----------



## jerico

Here's my VPI Classic (cart is Soundsmith Zephyr):



It's been getting a lot of use this afternoon!


----------



## TheWuss

VPI classic owners FTW!!!   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  nice.  i see you got the ring clamp as well.
  i have a lot of mildly warped vinyl.  so i'm thinking the edge clamp might be my in my future.


----------



## jerico

I think the perimeter clamp makes the table look like the Millennium Falcon!!


----------



## AuralRelations

I don't think I'll ever part with my Technics. She'll probably out live me. Just got the TD-1200 fluid damper. Sibilance on some records is completely gone now. Lower noise floor across the board. HIGHLY recommended to SL-1200 owners.


----------



## ProcessJunkie

I've been drolling on this thread for a good part of my morning. I hope one day i can get a TD and post it here as well.


----------



## calipilot227

Small update, huge difference:
   

   
  The little built-in brush actually does a surprisingly good job of catching dust before it hits the needle


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Small update, huge difference:
> 
> 
> 
> The little built-in brush actually does a surprisingly good job of catching dust before it hits the needle


 
   

 I knew you'd like the Shure. Just out of curiosity, what alignment tool did you use? I'm still tweaking my alignment and I'm not sure which tool is best.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> I knew you'd like the Shure. Just out of curiosity, what alignment tool did you use? I'm still tweaking my alignment and I'm not sure which tool is best.


 
   
  I used the included alignment tool


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> I used the included alignment tool


 
   

 Ah. I haven't seen that because my cartridge was pre-installed.


----------



## AuralRelations

Trying using a cartridge protractor from Vinyl Engine. They have a bunch for a few different tables and some universal ones. The one for my Technics SL1200 worked like a charm. Sounds great!


----------



## palmfish

auralrelations said:


> Trying using a cartridge protractor from Vinyl Engine. They have a bunch for a few different tables and some universal ones. The one for my Technics SL1200 worked like a charm. Sounds great!




I've printed and used a couple from vinyl engine. They are difficult to use (the lines can be hard see) so I was curious if there was something easier.


----------



## AuralRelations

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> I've printed and used a couple from vinyl engine. They are difficult to use (the lines can be hard see) so I was curious if there was something easier.


 
   
  It's true that they're a bit hard to see. Took me several hours to get it aligned properly. But hey, it's free and the Baerwald alignment sounds better than the Stevenson alignment that the stock tool provides.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





auralrelations said:


> It's true that they're a bit hard to see. Took me several hours to get it aligned properly. But hey, it's free and the Baerwald alignment sounds better than the Stevenson alignment that the stock tool provides.


 
   

 I've experimented with the Baerwald and Lofgren protractors, as well as a tangential arm (no overhang or offset angle) with mixed results.
   
  It sounds good and seems aligned with the protractors, but the cartridge sits very forward below the headshell and sits off camber relative to the headshell. But that's the way it came out to align with the protractors and it sounds good, so I stuck with it.
   
  I'll probably go back and experiment some more when I get in a vinyl mood again...


----------



## Greyson




----------



## ProcessJunkie

Quote: 





greyson said:


>


 
   
  Is that a Cinematic Orchestra vinyl? You sir, got some taste in music.


----------



## Hi-fi Wigwammer

Thievery Corporation too, another one of my faves. I saw C O at The Roundhouse in Camden a couple of years ago. They were playing _The Man with a movie cam_era in its entirety. Good gig.


----------



## ProcessJunkie

Quote: 





hi-fi wigwammer said:


> Thievery Corporation too, another one of my faves. I saw C O at The Roundhouse in Camden a couple of years ago. They were playing _The Man with a movie cam_era in its entirety. Good gig.


 
   
  I am listening to while doing some work! I think you'll love it. It's HARD to find some Live Cinematic Orchestra stuff besides the Live Al Albert Hall recording. 

http://www.moshcam.com/the-cinematic-orchestra/angel-place-recital-hall-464.aspx#


----------



## Greyson

Yes to all of the above, and thanks! That's TCO's _Live at the Royal Albert Hall _in the first pic, and _The Mirror Conspiracy_ in the second. Absolutely fantastic all around. I am on the lookout for _The Richest Man in Babylon_ but all of Thievery Corporation's vinyl releases are out of print, rare, and expensive. I was so happy when I heard they were re-issuing _The Cosmic Game_ on vinyl, untill I found out it was limited to 500 copies and only available at Record Store Day locations.
  
  A limited-edition reissue of an already limited-edition release. Go figure.


----------



## roker

Quote: 





auralrelations said:


> I don't think I'll ever part with my Technics. She'll probably out live me. Just got the TD-1200 fluid damper. Sibilance on some records is completely gone now. Lower noise floor across the board. HIGHLY recommended to SL-1200 owners.


 
   
  1200s might not ever be regarded as AUDIOPHILE grade, but man do us audiophiles love this table.  No Fuss, No BS, and built like a freakin' tank.
   
  I regret selling mine.


----------



## Greyson

Quote: 





roker said:


> 1200s might not ever be regarded as AUDIOPHILE grade, but man do us audiophiles love this table.  No Fuss, No BS, and built like a freakin' tank.
> 
> I regret selling mine.


 
   

 Wasen't the MK4 designed as an Audiophile turntable?


----------



## AuralRelations

Quote: 





roker said:


> 1200s might not ever be regarded as AUDIOPHILE grade, but man do us audiophiles love this table.  No Fuss, No BS, and built like a freakin' tank.
> 
> I regret selling mine.


 
   
  Absolutely agree. Can't imagine a more reliable table. I love changing VTA with the collar and adjusting anti-skate with a dial. I only wish the stock arm/headshell had azimuth adjustments. An aftermarket headshell will take care of that though.


----------



## J.Pocalypse

Quote: 





greyson said:


>


 
   
  Love this.


----------



## The8thst

j.pocalypse said:


> Love this.



I really like the PAF enabled Jag in the background.


----------



## Greyson

Quote: 





the8thst said:


> I really like the PAF enabled Jag in the background.


 
   
  Actaully thats a Jazzmaster.
   
  Thanks for the kind words guys.


----------



## AuralRelations

Hey, Greyson. Where'd you get that lamp for your 1200?


----------



## Greyson

Quote: 





auralrelations said:


> Hey, Greyson. Where'd you get that lamp for your 1200?


 
   
   
  http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/L318Hi/ The dimmer is quite handy. The littlite and turntable use switched outlets on the reciever so everything turns on together.


----------



## roker

Quote: 





greyson said:


> Wasen't the MK4 designed as an Audiophile turntable?


 
   
  Still, if you look at what is considered "audiophile-grade", it usually never involves the following two words:
   
  DIRECT DRIVE


----------



## Skylab

These days, generally true, although it wasn't always so. There were some VERY high end DD decks in the late 70's and early 80's. 

To wit: http://www.thevintageknob.org/pioneer-Exclusive_P3.html

The last one of these I saw for sale was $12K, IIRC, but of course like many rare vintage pieces, you're paying for the rarity. Nonetheless, this is a very highly regarded table. I'd love to have one someday.


----------



## Greyson

How about the Nakamichi Computing Turntables. These had a function called "absolute center" which would measure and then correct records that had off-center spindle holes. 90% of all records in your collection will be off to some extent, which accounts for the "swaying" motion as the needle tracks in the groove.
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5O7ssQB4Y8&feature=related


----------



## Eee Pee

What part is correcting the off-centeredness?  I'd have to assume the tonearm is making minute adjustments?
   
  The L.N.K.I.S.S - Let's not keep it simple, stupid approach.


----------



## sbradley02

While not remotely in the class as that one, my previous turntable (quite a few years ago) was a Sansui SR-717 which I thought was a very nice unit.
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> These days, generally true, although it wasn't always so. There were some VERY high end DD decks in the late 70's and early 80's.
> To wit: http://www.thevintageknob.org/pioneer-Exclusive_P3.html
> The last one of these I saw for sale was $12K, IIRC, but of course like many rare vintage pieces, you're paying for the rarity. Nonetheless, this is a very highly regarded table. I'd love to have one someday.


----------



## Skylab

Oh same - I have a Denon DP-59L and a Pioneer PL-550 both of which are terrific.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Oh same - I have a Denon DP-59L and a Pioneer PL-550 both of which are terrific.


 

 Beat me to it - I was just about to mention the Denons and Pioneers... And don't forget Technics. The SL-1200 and variants are definitely "audiophile" grade (whatever that means).
   
  My PL-707 is an excellent turntable and cost less than $500 when it was new.


----------



## Skylab

The PL-707 is a great deck.  And yes, there are some people who swear by the better Technics DD decks.
   
  Since this is a picture deck, here is a nice shot of my PL-530:
   


   
  And the DP-59L:


----------



## The8thst

greyson said:


> Actaully thats a Jazzmaster.
> 
> Thanks for the kind words guys.




My mistake. I was picturing one of these with the pickups swapped out:






Nice guitar either way.


----------



## Greyson

No worries. Here's what things look like to the right of my turntable. The other speaker tower is on the opposite wall, so it projects quite well into the room.


----------



## AuralRelations

Quote: 





skylab said:


> And the DP-59L:


 
  I just noticed the picture behind your turntable and laughed.


----------



## Skylab

My daughter's handiwork from years ago


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'm still pretty conflicted on what turntable I'm going to end up with. Trying to decide if I should just go balls out or if I should get something 'good' and worry about it later if I feel the need to upgrade...


----------



## TheWuss

just do like i did, MT.
  get the VPI classic, with a nice Dynavector MC cartridge.
  and be upgrade-resistant for years to come.


----------



## MorbidToaster

thewuss said:


> just do like i did, MT.
> get the VPI classic, with a nice Dynavector MC cartridge.
> and be upgrade-resistant for years to come.  :evil:




My original plan was a Nottingham Interspace SE and 2M Black with a Simaudio Phonostage.

Option 2 is a Clearaudio Concept, 2M Bronze and probably still a Sim stage. 

How much does the Classic go for? I want to say it's cheaper than the Nottingham...


----------



## TheWuss

the nottingham goes for about 2 grand, right?
   
  the VPI class is $2750.  without cartridge.


----------



## MorbidToaster

thewuss said:


> the nottingham goes for about 2 grand, right?
> 
> the VPI class is $2750.  without cartridge.




I was quoted 2700 with no cart for the SE. So pretty much the same. The baby Nottingham is 2 grand. That's where their tables start.


----------



## TheWuss

ah.  i see.  the nottingham sure is a beauty.
  another great option would be the VPI Scoutmaster.  i think Mr. Skylab owns that one.
  slightly more modern looking than the classic, too.


----------



## Skylab

Yep, I have a Scoutmaster and love it. Fantastic TT. It produces the deepest black background I have ever heard from a TT.


----------



## Greyson

Minor update, I bought a Sennheiser HH10 for my D2000's to rest on.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Reminds me...I want that Kind of Blue box set...


----------



## ProcessJunkie

@Greyson,

 Last time it was a Cinematic Orchestra, and now a Miles Davis vinyl? I wonder whatother wonderful lps you have on that box.


----------



## TheWuss

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Reminds me...I want that Kind of Blue box set...


 
  don't do it, man.
  that box set is riddled with problems.
  the discs are housed by a piece of cardboard that actually scratches them.  i bought and returned 3 of these box sets before i gave up on getting a scratch-free version.
  not to mention many reports of the blue vinyl having lots of bubbles and imperfections.


----------



## MorbidToaster

thewuss said:


> don't do it, man.
> that box set is riddled with problems.
> the discs are housed by a piece of cardboard that actually scratches them.  i bought and returned 3 of these box sets before i gave up on getting a scratch-free version.
> not to mention many reports of the blue vinyl having lots of bubbles and imperfections.




That REALLY sucks...I wanted that vinyl...


----------



## TheWuss

i know.
  i have the 180 gram pressing.  but i wanted it in blue, too.
  kind of blue on blue vinyl.  duh!!!


----------



## Greyson

Yeah, I have the 180gram 2011 pressing. I would bet money that the spindle hole is dead center, there is zero lateral movement when the needle is tracking.
   
  @ProcessJunkie, thanks again for the compliments.


----------



## AppleDappleman

Would someone inform me exactly what one would need if starting their turntable journey? I always find turntables on Craigslist and they look simply fantastic (anything wood really haha). 

I know you need a phonograph but how would you connect that to say...bifrost/lyr/HD650? I've always been so curious. Something about turntables seem fascinating and well, it just seems so perfect seeing an actual vinyl spin next to you.


----------



## TheWuss

you would need a phono stage / phono preamp.
  and a set of rca cables.
   
  which turntable you buy greatly affects the particulars above.


----------



## Afrikane

I have others but this one has been doing sterling duty for a while now:
   
  Dunlop Systemdek Transcription (refurbed), SME Series III, customised Shure M75ED (Gyger FG11 stylus amongst other mods)


----------



## MorbidToaster

Wow what a stack...and that rack is a beauty.


----------



## Greyson

That's quite a nice rack, though i'd go for something more muted like oak or mahogany. I assume the color was to match the turntable.


----------



## Afrikane

Nope, just co-incidence.


----------



## Hi-fi Wigwammer

My deck, updated pics with latest cartridge....
   
   
  The Voyd (3 motor) turntable with Reference Lexan platter and Reference bearing
  Alphason HR100S arm wired with Kondo fairy wire and Kondo KSL-Vz arm cable
  Transfiguration Orpheus cartridge


----------



## Greyson

Nice simplistic elegance, though it looks absolutely massive.


----------



## MorbidToaster

greyson said:


> Nice simplistic elegance, though it looks absolutely massive.




I noticed that too. It looks huge.


----------



## Hi-fi Wigwammer

It is pretty large. Quite old too - 1990 vintage for the deck. The arm is mid '80s.
Audio Note bought the rights to manufacture the Voyd later on and they were still in production up to about 2003.
The current £60k Audio Note TT3 Reference uses the same drive principle and motor layout.
Putting it simply the Voyd has dynamics and swing that few decks can rival. I've heard nothing within budget that i'd prefer.


----------



## samsquanch

Thought I'd throw my table up here, not the most fancy, but the best set up I've had, so I enjoy it.  A Technics SL-23 that I got from a used record shop with an Ortofon 2M Red and a KAB clamp.  It's all sitting in a home made sand mass loaded isolation box (got the idea here:  http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/sandblaster_e.html  I've been talking to another member about how this probably, or in his words absolutely, isn't doing anything for isolation, and I'm soon going to look into building a spring based isolation table...).  All that runs into a Hagerman Bugle phono pre.
   

   
  Threw the record sleeve in the picture for any prog nerds hanging around...


----------



## TheWuss

Nektar!!!!


----------



## sbradley02

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> Nektar!!!!


 
  Saw them live in the 70s. Great light show accompanying the concert with many strange pieces of art being projected behind the band.


----------



## samsquanch

Quote: 





sbradley02 said:


> Saw them live in the 70s. Great light show accompanying the concert with many strange pieces of art being projected behind the band.


 
   
  Very cool, I often feel I missed the best years for live music by being born in 82.  Oh well, at least the vinyl was left behind to be enjoyed...


----------



## TheWuss

Quote:


samsquanch said:


> Very cool, I often feel I missed the best years for live music by being born in 82.  Oh well, at least the vinyl was left behind to be enjoyed...


 
  true for me as well, samsquanch.
  i'd love to think what it would have been like to go to the record store to buy BOC's Tyranny and Mutation... and to hear it for the first time....
  sigh


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





afrikane said:


> I have others but this one has been doing sterling duty for a while now:
> 
> Dunlop Systemdek Transcription (refurbed), SME Series III, customised Shure M75ED (Gyger FG11 stylus amongst other mods)


 
   
   
   
  That is such a great rack. I can see it gets the table at perfect level for your arm to move things around. Ergonomic at it's best!


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> My original plan was a Nottingham Interspace SE and 2M Black with a Simaudio Phonostage.
> Option 2 is a Clearaudio Concept, 2M Bronze and probably still a Sim stage.
> How much does the Classic go for? I want to say it's cheaper than the Nottingham...


 
   
   
  I still like my simple VPI Scout. They can be found used at a really good price. After a series of old turntables I thought I was in heaven when I purchased it.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I think I've decided what I want in a TT considering budget and what not. 
   
*Nottingham Interspace Jr with either a 2M Black or Bronze and a Simaudio 110LP.*
   
  I'm getting less and less excited about the idea of purchasing new gear and realizing that the joy buying more and more music brings is _far greater _than new gear.
   
  I think this TT will be my last big audio purchase for at least awhile. I just want to stop saving for gear and just buy tons of music. I've been doing it more and more and seeing my library get bigger and listening more is much cooler than more stuff on my desk.
   
  Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> I still like my simple VPI Scout. They can be found used at a really good price. After a series of old turntables I thought I was in heaven when I purchased it.


----------



## grokit

I think that when I put my system back together I will try a tube stage in between my turntable and my GCPH. Hopefully it will add some tube warmth and function as a a bit of a step-up transformer in between the LOMC cartridge and the GCPH, which is pushed to its limits with the .25mV Denon 103R. 

Step-up isn't mentioned in the description, but when I use it with my speakers I notice an audible increase in volume when I turn it on. It's billed as a "magic box" by the maker. What do you guys think, any reason this won't work out?

http://shop.grantfidelity.com/B-283-Tube-Processor.html


----------



## Skylab

Honestly, I would go for a step-up transformer instead. Get a vintage one of you want a little warmth


----------



## grokit

Well I don't need much of a bump and I already have this with some upgraded tubes, I was just wondering if it would screw anything up.


----------



## Hi-fi Wigwammer

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Honestly, I would go for a step-up transformer instead.


 
   
  A good SUT can really improve the sound of vinyl replay. Unfortunately good ones are often pretty expensive.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah I will never go back to using anything other than a transformer to provide MC gain.


----------



## WiR3D

Some amazing things in here, wow. 

I figured I would ask here.

I don't know much about turn tables but my dads 50th is coming soon and he has a decent collection of lps and his cheap turn table took a dump a while back. I was thinking of buying him one. Budget is not much I am afraid... $1000 without shipping, and it would need a cover of some kind-we have cats.

Is it even worth it to buy one in this price? The rest of his setup will get an upgrade not too far down.

Sent from my HTC HD2 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## MorbidToaster

There are plenty of good options in that price range that will sound a lot better than the one that's now dead.
   
  Is this budget for just the TT or TT, Cart, and Phono stage?
   
  Quote: 





wir3d said:


> Some amazing things in here, wow.
> I figured I would ask here.
> I don't know much about turn tables but my dads 50th is coming soon and he has a decent collection of lps and his cheap turn table took a dump a while back. I was thinking of buying him one. Budget is not much I am afraid... $1000 without shipping, and it would need a cover of some kind-we have cats.
> Is it even worth it to buy one in this price? The rest of his setup will get an upgrade not too far down.
> Sent from my HTC HD2 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## power911

*Sony HP-219a*
  Still going through several repairs though... still waiting for a audio angel here in my country to resurrect this guy




   
  needed some cleaning as well
   

   
  Speakers that comes with this
   

   
  No chance to save this though... the speakers are 100% dead... the MDF wood soaked up with moisture and shattered badly...
 Only the wood vinyl holding them up~
   




  Some good vinyl disc I've inherited as well... needs cleaning too
   
  This was from my late uncle and since my aunt find it a waste corroding inside the storeroom, she decided to gave it to me instead.

 Though it is still dead but it's my very first vinyl player so I'm still having high hopes on getting this to work...
   
  I gotta say... this could possibly be the largest vinyl player among the pics I see you guys have... like srsly... super huge and heavy... I have no idea where can I put this other than the floor in the middle of the hallroom


----------



## Skylab

I hope you will not take offense, but I would not spend much money getting that working again, unless you have significant sentimental attachment to it.  That's not a high quality turntable.


----------



## power911

no offense taken... I would just want to get it to work.
   
  While there are many turntables out there worth the money but still... I'm better off with the direction of 'sentimental value'
  who knows I might inherit this further down?.


----------



## grokit

skylab said:


> Yeah I will never go back to using anything other than a transformer to provide MC gain.



I just re-checked the specs and the B-283 won't work anyways. The input sensitivity is 500mV.

Now reading up on MC step-up transformers:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/stepup/primer.html
:rolleyes:


----------



## grokit

Thanks guys, for the further emptying of my wallet:



Simple, seems tailor-made for the 103 series, and found one used with a re-tippable 103 cartridge for a little less than new.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





power911 said:


>


 
   
   
  Keep the fingers off the grooves at all times!


----------



## golgi

My modest but well balanced headphone station.


----------



## golgi

sorry double post


----------



## grokit

Nice *golgi*, that looks like the new *to me* deck that I am putting together now. It's a tank! I just got the dust cover, and am waiting for a hinge bracket, as well as my preamp and now a step-up transformer to get a listen, almost there. Mine is the SL1200 Mk2, and the deck is silver. Are there other differences?


----------



## ashbeowulf

Here's my very modest turntable/audio setup. The phono is a Technics SL-BD22 connected to a Technics Integrated SU-G75 amp. Headphones are Denon D5Ks. My other amp is a millet starving student hybrid, connected currently to a Fiio D3 DAC. Looking for possible ways to upgrade my current turntable situation without spending an exorbitant amount of money. Any suggestions? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Edit: Forgot to note that everything on the TT is stock. Looking for maybe a stylus to help in dust protection because no matter how well I keep my LPs, they always seem to accumulate dust from somewhere.


----------



## golgi

I'm no expert but I think the difference between the SL1200 and SL1210 is just color as long as they are both MK2.  If they are the MK5 or other variant then I think there may be differences.  Not sure what they are however. 
   
  I've been very happy with it and have no plans to replace it.  So far it's stock other than an additional mat.  I've been thinking about modding it some.  FYI, I found this forum to be full of good information about these turntables- http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewforum.php?f=16


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Nice *golgi*,


 
  So nice, he had to post it twice!


----------



## Skylab

grokit said:


> Thanks guys, for the further emptying of my wallet:
> 
> Simple, seems tailor-made for the 103 series, and found one used with a re-tippable 103 cartridge for a little less than new.




Good choice. Let us know how you like it.


----------



## Audio Addict

I will be auditioning this phono stage in a few weeks.  It will be the black with some silver trim:


----------



## ashbeowulf

Also is it worth upgrading my current phono (SL-BD22) to the SL-1200? They're selling for around 350-450 in my area, but not sure if it's worth the upgrade and at what price it would be


----------



## grokit

I don't have enough experience to give anything close to a definitive answer but it looks like your BD22 is more similar to the other turntables that I have experience with, a couple of Japanese belt-driven jobs (Luxman P405, Denon 300F). The SL-1200 is a much more substantial deck, just going by sheer weight!


----------



## golgi

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> So nice, he had to post it twice!


 

 LOL, I thought the page had timed out so I posted again. It wasn't until much later that I saw it posted both times


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





golgi said:


> My modest but well balanced headphone station.


 
   
  I see I'm not the only one who enjoys the MKIII and HD580 combo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm a heretic though, and use it with a CD player


----------



## WiR3D

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> There are plenty of good options in that price range that will sound a lot better than the one that's now dead.
> 
> Is this budget for just the TT or TT, Cart, and Phono stage?


 
  its for the lot. Sorry it took so long to reply, damn tapatalk never registered the subscription! arg
   
  EDIT: and if it comes at less then a $1000~$1200(shipped) I could also possibly get him a set of headphones, and an amp. But that would depend on my budget at the end of the month.


----------



## alan_g

my little offering....


----------



## MorbidToaster

God I love Notts tables. Can't wait to get mine even if it's only the Jr. I was considering a used Space Deck but I'm just not comfortable buying a used TT unless it's local.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





alan_g said:


> my little offering....


----------



## grokit

Space Decks makes you barf rainbows? Not sure I get it.


----------



## jtaylor991

OK guys so I'm putting my Dual CS-5000 in my headphone setup. Turntable>NAD Phono Preamp PP-1>Audio-gd Compass in Super Mode (all by regular cheap RCA cables if it matters). I hear a hum when I have the amp on,  and when I touch the wire with my finger and squeeze it, the hum is reduced, and a bit more so I think when I push it down with my finger on some metal shelving, and it (ground wire) doesn't do much (to the hum) when it is just hanging on the shelving. I've touched it to random metal things to try. Other metal connectors like a random RCA connector make it pop and fizz, like connecting RCA cables to a stereo that's turned on, and other stuff it just does nothing. Any ideas? The room is carpeted (but so was my listening/stereo room downstairs, but I guess the receiver had its own ground anyway so a moot point) and I have a desktop PC running ~5ft away diagonally (it's under the desk on my other side, rig to my left and computer to my right).
   
   
  Any ideas? I can upload pics for anyone who might be interested as well


----------



## WiR3D

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Space Decks makes you barf rainbows? Not sure I get it.


 
  9gag at all? or 4chan... lol


----------



## grokit

*jtaylor991*: Do you have the ground wire attached to the PP-1?


----------



## jtaylor991

Quote: 





grokit said:


> *jtaylor991*: Do you have the ground wire attached to the PP-1?


 
  No, just hanging on the shelf right now, the wire is bent around a small bit on there. I touched it to the PP-1 but nothing happened.
   
  Oh, I forgot to mention, I can still hear the hum when the turntable is off (the PP-1 is always on as long as it's plugged in, it hasn't even gotten warm being on for months straight so I don't worry about it), but it's a bit higher in pitch, and it gets lower when the turntable is on, and touching/squeezing the ground wire like before still has an effect on or off (turntable).
   
  Hmm...I just tried unplugging the turntable and the hum was much quieter, and touching the ground wire actually made it louder (with turntable unplugged). Weird


----------



## Skylab

The issue is a grounding issue for sure. For sure the groud wire from the TT has to be attached firmly to the phono preamp. But the phono preamp also needs to be be plugged into a grounded outlet, with no "cheater" plugs.


----------



## jtaylor991

It's all connected to a power strip (I think I can assume it's a surge protector as it has a red "PROTECT" light on it)..is that bad? And where would I connect the ground wire? There's not really a specified place, but there's screws holding the casing on. Wrap it around one of those maybe?
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> The issue is a grounding issue for sure. For sure the groud wire from the TT has to be attached firmly to the phono preamp. But the phono preamp also needs to be be plugged into a grounded outlet, with no "cheater" plugs.


----------



## MorbidToaster

There should be a clearly marked Phono Ground on your receiver/preamp. If there isn't a place to properly ground it then it's not designed for using a TT. You would then need an external phono preamp.
   
  Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> It's all connected to a power strip (I think I can assume it's a surge protector as it has a red "PROTECT" light on it)..is that bad? And where would I connect the ground wire? There's not really a specified place, but there's screws holding the casing on. Wrap it around one of those maybe?


----------



## Skylab

Well, in looking, the NAD PP-1 seems to lack a grounding post. I cannot believe it, and shame on NAD. The PP2 does have one, so I guess they figured out that's a bad idea.

You HAVE to ground the TT somewhere. But in the system you describe, I'm not really sure where you can attach the ground wire. 

What sort of power strip do you have?


----------



## grokit

It's also known to suffer RF issues, moving it around may help:
http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Phono-Preamp/NAD/PP-1/vinyl/11744.html

Could he ground the TT to one of the PP-1's chassis screws?

edit: nvm, saw the wall wart.


----------



## jtaylor991

AHA! I wrapped it around a screw on my headphone amp and touching it to it made it fizz, pop etc. bgut then once it was firmly attached the hum was just gone. Great! As long as the tape stays on there and I don't mess with it, it oughta be alright I suppose.
   
   
  My little fix:
   

   
   
   
  And the entire rig:
   
   

   
  Dual CS-5000 Turntable>NAD Phono Stage PP-1>Audio-gd Compass in Super mode (amp only, bypassing internal DAC) by RCA>Sennheiser HD650s with stock cable>Me 
   
  and for digital: My Computer by USB>PS Audio DLIII DAC>Audio-gd Compass in Super mode (amp only, bypassing internal DAC) by cheap RCA cable>Senn 650s>Me


----------



## grokit

Use the screw to clamp the wire down, then you won't need the tape.


----------



## RazorJack

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> No, just hanging on the shelf right now, the wire is bent around a small bit on there. I touched it to the PP-1 but nothing happened.
> 
> Oh, I forgot to mention, I can still hear the hum when the turntable is off (the PP-1 is always on as long as it's plugged in, it hasn't even gotten warm being on for months straight so I don't worry about it), but it's a bit higher in pitch, and it gets lower when the turntable is on, and touching/squeezing the ground wire like before still has an effect on or off (turntable).
> 
> Hmm...I just tried unplugging the turntable and the hum was much quieter, and touching the ground wire actually made it louder (with turntable unplugged). Weird


 
   
  Is there a hum when you touch the ground wire to the sleeve of a L/R rca cable plugged into your phono pre-amp?
   
  I just tried it with my phono pre-amp and it has the same effect as when I connect the ground wire coming from my turntable to the ground screw on the pre-amp. Obviously, seeing as though the RCA sleeve and ground screw share the same ground.


----------



## jtaylor991

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Use the screw to clamp the wire down, then you won't need the tape.


 
  Eh, it's a hexagonal screw, and I don't feel like messing with it right now, but I will eventually, when it comes undone. Thanks! Maybe I could try it on one of the screws on the PP-1...
  By the way, how good is the PP-1 in general? I got it used for I think like $75 at a record/hifi store. Good deal or no? I need to upgrade carts and stages anyway eventually.


----------



## jtaylor991

Also, the needle was hovering above the record, turned off. My friend went tapping it subconsciously and it was hitting the record. Is it likely that he damaged the tip? It looks a bit dull to my naked eye but it seems like every time that happens it's really fine, so...


----------



## ashbeowulf

Was looking for some upgrades to my turntable that I can do for reasonably cheap. I really quite like the turntable I have at this price point, but would like to maximize the sound out of it. Will replacing the cartridge with this one from Shure work?: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006I5SB/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d0_g23_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=13648ZFV679XEFF5B8RT&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846
   
  Would it even fit my SL-BD22? I'm currently using an AT92E cartridge. Any help appreciated thanks!


----------



## palmfish

ashbeowulf said:


> Was looking for some upgrades to my turntable that I can do for reasonably cheap. I really quite like the turntable I have at this price point, but would like to maximize the sound out of it. Will replacing the cartridge with this one from Shure work?: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006I5SB/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d0_g23_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=13648ZFV679XEFF5B8RT&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No, that cartridge won't fit. You need to look at "P-Mount" cartridges.


----------



## grokit

If this is what your headshell looks like, I really doubt it.


----------



## WiR3D

Yeah sorry me again, now that the previous convo has died.
  what do you guys recommend?
  Full house (tone arm, cartridge and turntable)
  in these 3 price brackets:

 $350~400
 $500~600
 $1000
   
  Like I said this is for my dad. Im looking for not the value buy, but the GOOD buy, sort of like The denon D2000 (you would need to spent a lot more to match it.)
   
  more then one option is welcomed.


----------



## slytown

This is what I'm bringing to Chiunifi: a Technics SL1200-MK5. Good luck getting one now since Technics killed their turntable production line. RIP SL1200s. You gave us so much.


----------



## grokit

Stanton will keep them going.


----------



## jtaylor991

They are still sold on Amazon, but they are fairly expensive at $1,300. Are they really worth that much/that good quality-wise or is it just the rarity?
   
  http://www.amazon.com/TECHNICS-SL-1200MK2-Automatic-Stereo-Turntable/dp/B00006I5VX


----------



## WiR3D

Quote: 





jtaylor991 said:


> They are still sold on Amazon, but they are fairly expensive at $1,300. Are they really worth that much/that good quality-wise or is it just the rarity?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/TECHNICS-SL-1200MK2-Automatic-Stereo-Turntable/dp/B00006I5VX


 
  Im pretty sure i saw one on amazon uk for like GBP300
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Technics-SL-1210-II-Turntable/dp/B0000C4GFF/ref=pd_ybh_2
   
  EDIT oh snap here is the mkII
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Technics-SL1200MK2-SL1200-MK2/dp/B000LAKVNK/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1337942245&sr=1-1
   
  such subtle differences... so confused


----------



## MorbidToaster

Just find a used one from a DJ that took care of his stuff. You can find pairs for ~600 USD on many used sites. I've been tempted myself because I want to get back into spinning but 2 TTs would take up soooooo much space not to mention the controller I plan on getting as well.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Just a side note for you guys looks at Technics tables. Stanton offers a few nice choices that are built well and have _ridiculous_ motors in them (almost instant start/stop). My favorite being the STR8-150. 
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Stanton will keep them going.


----------



## Skylab

grokit said:


> Stanton will keep them going.




Not so sure. Stanton announce very recently they are out of the cartridge business. I doubt they will stay in the turntable business. 

There are LOTS of people making turntables these days, of course, but things do change.


----------



## Skylab

To get back on the right topic: I had John at turntablerestorations.com make a PL-570 for me in real walnut veneer, to match the rest of my vintage pioneer gear. I'm pleased with the result:











The PL-570 is really a nice sounding TT. I have a Clearaudio Maestro Wood on it...sounds killer.


----------



## palmfish

That is just beautiful.


----------



## TheWuss

wow!!!  gorgeous!! 
  okay, rob.  you can stop now.  i think you've out-vintaged everybody here.  big time.


----------



## Skylab

Thanks guys.  I'm pretty happy with it


----------



## grokit

Really really nice Rob!



As far as the SL1200 MkII, the one I recently picked up at audiogon arrived as advertised in great shape, $390 including $65 for shipping. It was missing the dust cover which I have installed and I just received the last hinge bracket today. So including a new 45 rpm adapter my investment without a cartridge was under $475*. I just need to switch my headshell/cartridge into it, and wait for my preamp to get back and that step up transformer and I'm set. I'll post a photo when it's done being put together. 

I may sneak a listen with a temporary rig before it's completely done 

*edit: or a little less than the price of a brand-new Stanton knockoff.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> okay, rob.  you can stop now.  i think you've out-vintaged everybody here.  big time.


 
  That got a laugh out loud.
   
  Yeah man, that's fantastic looking.


----------



## ashbeowulf

Just bought a Yamaha CR-820 receiver today, and looking for a new phono now to go with it.. Guy was selling a Dual 1216 and an AR XA with a shure cartridge. He wanted 200 for the AR, but I'm not sure if that's a good price or not? He said he just recently had the base redone with MDF. Any advice? Or should I just keep my eye out for future turntables for now? Not looking to spend more than 300 at the moment


----------



## grokit

The Sl-122MK2 saga continues, what's wrong with this picture:


----------



## grokit

Also the mat was more than a little dinged up, a stock replacement will be another $25+.

But there are upgrade options here. 

This first one is very intriguing, the record actually sits on small vinyl "spikes":


http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170773039621

What little I can find about it seems quite positive.


This next one seems more conventional, and lets you use a clamp (which I would also need) but costs a lot more:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Funk-Firm-Acromat-SL1200-SL-1210-Turntable-Platter-Mat-/390412824222?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5ae66aee9e

This one seems to be more widely known, and the impressions I can find on it also seem very positive.


Evidently the first one transfers energy and the second one absorbs it. I am leaning toward the first one, because it's cheaper, I won't need to get a clamp for this deck, and I am on a slab so transferring the acoustic energy makes a kind of sense. If I was on a conventional joist floor that transferred vibrations the second one maybe?

Snake oil? Anybody have any experience with either one?


----------



## Skylab

Yipes, Grokit, was that TT ever used with the wrong headshell like that? 

The good news is that the proper kind of headshell is even easier to get than the wrong one that is in the picture.


----------



## grokit

skylab said:


> Yipes, Grokit, was that TT ever used with the wrong headshell like that?
> 
> The good news is that the proper kind of headshell is even easier to get than the wrong one that is in the picture.




Nope, I just switched out the cart/headshell without thinking and that was the result, whoops! Pictured below is the one that came with it with my cart mounted, it's straight but much thinner so now the end of the screws protrude a little more, shown in the second picture below. It will probably be okay but it makes me uncomfortable. The only set of screws that I have that aren't the same length are way too short. So rather than grinding the end off the screws or fashioning/obtaining a shim, I have ordered a new stock headshell which is a bit thicker like the Denon, and comes with new cart wires which are needed as well, another $20.

This brings the total to around $520, with a new stock mat and a replacement auxiliary tonearm weight the grand total is now around $560. 

But what about those "high-performance" mats, any opinion on those?


----------



## grokit

grokit said:


> Snake oil? Anybody have any experience with either one?


----------



## Eee Pee

Sorry grokit, I have no experience with mats.  All my tables have been mat free.  
   
  Find some washers for those screws though, so you don't turn the screw head against the paint on the arm.


----------



## grokit

eee pee said:


> Find some washers for those screws though, so you don't turn the screw head against the paint on the arm.




Thanks, the headshell that came with it has recesses for the screwheads, as does the stock one that I ordered (below). So it would require very small washers that are no bigger than the screwheads, might be hard to source. Plus I'm pretty sure that the Technique headshells are anodized, not painted. I think that the Denon headshell is anodized as well but I'm not sure. There is also an official Techniques 4g weight/shim that was $6, and I will play with it in conjunction with the auxiliary counterweight as I have read reports that this particular cart/TT/tonearm setup benefits from the extra weight/counterweight.


----------



## Eee Pee

Cool.  I still suggest you do what you can to find washers, be it anodizing or paint or whatever.  Still going to scrape up the point of contact with the screw head.
   
  You should eventually find washers that will fit.  As an aside, I tinker with small electric motors for RC crawlers.  I have so many washers of different sizes I could restock Home Depot easily.  I know they're out there.


----------



## ashbeowulf

Any of you have any experience with the Acoustic Research XA turntable? I asked about it last page but wasn't sure if anyone had seen it. Just had the base rebuilt and has a Shure cartridge on it. Guy is asking 200 but dunno if that's overpriced or not 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Any help greatly appreciated!


----------



## Eee Pee

No personal experience, but I felt compelled to share this link: 
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/358797/better-turntable-deal-ar-xa-200-or-technics-sl-1200mk5-250-both-in-great-cond


----------



## Skylab

Yeah I have never messed with aftermarket mats either. My VPI doesn't use a mat of any sort, and my Denon and Pioneer TT's have custom mats that really need to be used as supplied.


----------



## grokit

I decided to get another stock rubber mat to continue the spirit of stock restoration:

"Rubber mat from Technics. The old 1200MK2's used to come with these, though they are impractical for DJing (as opposed to a slipmat), they are good for archiving/sampling or vinyl listening purposes as they dampen vibrations"

But I will also try the Reso-mat, just to see if it sounds any different than the rubber mat: 
"I have to say this mat represents a good time spent in R & D with different cone materials. Wood was rejected, for instance, as the bass disappeared! Softer materials such as rubber & cork were also rejected because the damping they caused resulted in a loss of detail. The polyvinyl used for the Reso-Mat cones is similar to the vinyl the record is made from & gave the best results."

Both put together are still well less than the Achromat, the "World's top selling mat". Probably the one to get :rolleyes:


----------



## golgi

I got this inexpensive mat for my turntable and it works very well. I use this on top of the stock thick rubber technics mat. http://www.sleevetown.com/turntable-accessories.shtml

It's the last one at the bottom of the page.


----------



## Twinster

Here's my entry to the vinyl world. My first ever turntable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm pretty excited. The last time I listen to a vinyl record (excluding the session in the audio store) I was 12 years old and I was listening to Elvis Presley.


----------



## grokit

golgi said:


> I got this inexpensive mat for my turntable and it works very well. I use this on top of the stock thick rubber technics mat. http://www.sleevetown.com/turntable-accessories.shtml
> 
> It's the last one at the bottom of the page.




Thanks, that looks interesting but I have to be able to replace the stock rubber mat with one specially sized for the SL1200 because of the lip on the platter. All I can find like that are the mats I pictured, the stock/knockoff rubber mats, and a cork mat.


----------



## 9pintube

Quote: 





twinster said:


> Here's my entry to the vinyl world. My first ever turntable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Hey Man that's sharp! Happy spinning and watch that stylist, ALWAYS!  My buddy just snapped off his cantilever on his ZYX......It happens to even the veterans of this love of ours.....


----------



## ashbeowulf

Quote: 





twinster said:


> Here's my entry to the vinyl world. My first ever turntable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Ooooh wow that's pretty. I don't think I wanna know how much that probably cost either  Enjoy it man! Vinyl is great


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

What size screw does the Shure m97xe use for mounting? I bought a lightly used cartridge but it doesn't come with anything except the needle


----------



## Twinster

ashbeowulf said:


> Ooooh wow that's pretty. I don't think I wanna know how much that probably cost either  Enjoy it man! Vinyl is great







9pintube said:


> Hey Man that's sharp! Happy spinning and watch that stylist, ALWAYS!  My buddy just snapped off his cantilever on his ZYX......It happens to even the veterans of this love of ours.....




Thanks guys! The look might be deceiving because this table only cost $335. And in come with a decent Ortofon cartridge too.


----------



## ashbeowulf

twinster said:


> ashbeowulf said:
> 
> 
> > Ooooh wow that's pretty. I don't think I wanna know how much that probably cost either  Enjoy it man! Vinyl is great
> ...



Did you buy it new or used? If new, where from? Lol looking to get a decent table in that price range 

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Twinster

Quote: 





ashbeowulf said:


> Did you buy it new or used? If new, where from? Lol looking to get a decent table in that price range
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I bought it used but if you are in Europe they have them at a good price new. Needledoctor sell them for $499.


----------



## csteimnetz1

I thought I would post some photos of my turntable.


----------



## shaunybaby

Quote: 





csteimnetz1 said:


> I thought I would post some photos of my turntable.


 
   
  I am gonna love the day that i can spin some vinyl on my very own tt


----------



## csteimnetz1

Quote: 





shaunybaby said:


> I am gonna love the day that i can spin some vinyl on my very own tt


 
   
  Its a great experience especially when you carefully drop the needle and the music begins to play.


----------



## ashbeowulf

Just bought a Rega P-1 for 275 plus shipping. Can't wait for it to arrive


----------



## Redcarmoose

WOW. Girls On Film! Classic!


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> WOW. Girls On Film! Classic!


 
  Ever see the version of the video they weren't allowed to show?


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Ever see the version of the video they weren't allowed to show?


 
  Yes, but I maybe barley remember it. 1981 was a long time ago!


----------



## jr41

Quote: 





csteimnetz1 said:


> I thought I would post some photos of my turntable.


 
   
  Great shots of a lovely looking turntable. Is it a Dual? Which model?


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> Yes, but I maybe barley remember it. 1981 was a long time ago!


 
  Well then, here's your refresher.  
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOmSRivaL48


----------



## csteimnetz1

Quote: 





jr41 said:


> Great shots of a lovely looking turntable. Is it a Dual? Which model?


 
  Thanks and yes it is a Dual CS5000 with the Ortofon OM20


----------



## Twinster

Can someone direct me to a thread regarding turntable setting or phono preamp matching question?  Thanks


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





twinster said:


> Can someone direct me to a thread regarding turntable setting or phono preamp matching question?  Thanks


 
   
  Seemed like one was needed - so  I thought I would start a running thread to answer questions about turntable setup.  I hope other people will contribute, but I will monitor this thread as much as I can.  Fire away!
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/613136/turntable-setup-questions-thread-dont-start-a-new-thread-ask-your-question-here


----------



## grokit

Great idea Rob, subscribed. 

But for now:
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/index.php?sid=953d202ad203c5f8cd2d8a2b33d8f8b0


----------



## ashbeowulf

Just got my Rega P1 in today  Just got it set up and took some pictures!
   


   
  Hoped to take some pictures to show the stylus position. I adjusted the weight as shown in the set-up guide, and set the bias adjustment slider to around 1.75 grams, since that appears to be the tracking force on the Ortofon OM5E cartridge. Did I do this right? So excited to relisten to my collection on the new table!!


----------



## Twinster

Thank you Skylab. Going to this we thread right now.



skylab said:


> Seemed like one was needed - so  I thought I would start a running thread to answer questions about turntable setup.  I hope other people will contribute, but I will monitor this thread as much as I can.  Fire away!
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/613136/turntable-setup-questions-thread-dont-start-a-new-thread-ask-your-question-here


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





twinster said:


> Can someone direct me to a thread regarding turntable setting or phono preamp matching question?  Thanks


 
   
   
   
  Cool to see a phono-set-up thread. The preamp choices can be daunting too. 
   
Lower output cartridges tend to have fewer windings on their coils, and/or possibly weaker magnets. In the case of a moving coil (MC) cartridge, fewer coils implies lower moving mass, which might lead to better detail.
   
   
I have only had high-out-put cartridges so when I was ready to get a phono-pre-amp asked around Head-Fi. Turns out that folks can actually describe verbally, some of the characteristics of a pre-amp. The maybe most important part is matching though. I truly feel every phono pre-amp has a different sound. 
   
In my rig I was looking for authority from my table. I wanted as much bass as I could get and maybe would even have sacrificed detail in the end. A new thread was made back in 08-09 asking for suggestions. I purchased what they recommended here. I didn't realize how good my phono pre was until I tried to better it. Everything I tried sounded like FM radio. 
   
In the end I truly wonder if there could even be a guide to phono-pre-amps? There will be legendary match-ups of two products that help each to shine. You also have how each products matches up to the amp and headphones, not to mention how each member here is looking for a particular sound signature in the end, with some looking for pure detail and some looking for euphoric color.


----------



## jr41

Quote: 





ashbeowulf said:


> Just got my Rega P1 in today  Just got it set up and took some pictures!
> 
> Hoped to take some pictures to show the stylus position. I adjusted the weight as shown in the set-up guide, and set the bias adjustment slider to around 1.75 grams, since that appears to be the tracking force on the Ortofon OM5E cartridge. Did I do this right? So excited to relisten to my collection on the new table!!


 
   
  Congratulations - sharp looking table and nice photos too.
   
  It's not really possible to judge correct stylus position from photos - did the stylus come pre-mounted? If 1.75 g is the tracking force recommended by Ortofon then that should be fine. You may want to consider buying a stylus gauge as I found using the dial on my Rega alone to not be very accurate. From my limited experimentation I found the anti-skate to not make a lot of difference, unless set in extreme positions.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





ashbeowulf said:


> Just got my Rega P1 in today  Just got it set up and took some pictures!


 
  Absolutely beautiful


----------



## SemiAudiophile

Quote: 





ashbeowulf said:


> Just got my Rega P1 in today  Just got it set up and took some pictures!
> 
> Hoped to take some pictures to show the stylus position. I adjusted the weight as shown in the set-up guide, and set the bias adjustment slider to around 1.75 grams, since that appears to be the tracking force on the Ortofon OM5E cartridge. Did I do this right? So excited to relisten to my collection on the new table!!


 
  Is that a stock platter? looks pretty thick. congrats on your purchase!


----------



## ashbeowulf

Stock mdf platter!  It didn't even look like mdf honestly. So slick. Ordered it off audiogon from someone there and it's like new. Thinking of getting a different mat for the platter though instead of the felt one that came with it. Any suggestions?

Edit: can't begin to describe how much better the stock Ortofon cartridge is on this thing than the awful awful p-mount AT cartridge on the Technics table I was using previously. That thing must have been shredding the grooves. The ortofon glides so smoothly in the grooves that there is hardly any hiss or pop in the playback at all. Very very pleased with my purchase!


----------



## SemiAudiophile

Quote: 





ashbeowulf said:


> Stock mdf platter!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I'm using Herbie's Way Excellent mat with good results. Best part is that it doesn't stick to the vinyl when changing records. YMMV.


----------



## ]eep

I wouldn't wan't to deprive you ppl from some pretty pictures, so here's my new rig




It's a 2ndH Clearaudio Performance with a Kiseki Blue (rev vdHul needle)
The KIseki came free with my previous TT; Pro-ject Perspective. That has a Dynavector Karat D17MKII
The Dynavector is the better cart, dynamics and tracking, but the Kiseki just sounds beautifull icw the Clearaudio.


----------



## shaunybaby

Quote:


>





>


   
  I Love How Clean This Vinyl Is It Is Wonderfull


----------



## WiR3D

beautiful in an almost Steampunk sort of way.
   
  I poked around today and found out my dad has a Yamaha TT-230, worth getting a new stylus? or just scrap it for a Project Debut carbon


----------



## ]eep

shaunybaby said:


> Quote:
> I Love How Clean This Vinyl Is It Is Wonderfull




I'm just meticulous about handling my records. Something I learned in the old days. Never touch the vinyl, only the side and the label. 
I don't even have a recordcleaner (yet). You can always tell which ones are my own and the ones I bought 2ndH. 

FYI: the record is a 180g pressing on quiex vinyl of Peter Gabriel - Up.


----------



## pioferro

Here are some pics of my VPI Scoutmaster set up - was messing with a picture editing app on the phone


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





pioferro said:


> Here are some pics of my VPI Scoutmaster set up - was messing with a picture editing app on the phone


 
   
  I can't tell if that's a VERY dirty record, or just the way the photo was edited. Looks pretty cool nevertheless.


----------



## pioferro

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> I can't tell if that's a VERY dirty record, or just the way the photo was edited. Looks pretty cool nevertheless.


 
  It's the effect from the app


----------



## John In Cali

So I was clearing out the garage the other day and came upon my uncles old box of records which he had left there a few years back, a few records had been water damaged(mostly just the sleeves) so i decided i would keep them in a nice place in my closet to protect them even though i didn't have a player.  As i started removing records from the box, and lo, and behold.
  There was an old Sanyo TP- 1020 at the bottom. Thought that it must have been broken because my uncle had been asking me if i had a record player earlier that year.  Got it all hooked up, turned it on and ran a record through it, and damn did it sound nice.  Getting a record brush and a new needle later, probably replace all the caps. 
  The records on the top shelf are the ones that were in the box are are quite a mix of genres with some great Rock or Classical albums here and there. The ones on the bottom shelf is a well cared for set of "The Greatest Jazz Recordings of All Time" *Institute Of Jazz Studies Official Archive Collection.  *Great records. 
  TL;DR: Lucky, lucky day.


----------



## palmfish

Great story Cali, I love it when old stuff gets a new life.

Is there a barn or shed on the property? Quick, go out there - there's probably an old Porsche 356 or AC Cobra buried under a bale of hay!


----------



## ]eep

Was that special app called "add dust app" 
bad combination with a record player IMHO. 

I once found about 300 lp's dumped on the street with the trash. Most were in pretty good state. But that was 15y ago...


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





]eep said:


> Was that special app called "add dust app"
> bad combination with a record player IMHO.
> I once found about 300 lp's dumped on the street with the trash. Most were in pretty good state. But that was 15y ago...


 
  Yeah, those photos made your turntable and record look like they came out of Berlin c. 1945
   
  EDIT: Okay maybe not THAT bad.


----------



## deniall83

Pro-Ject Debut Carbon, Furutech ADL GT40, Sennheiser HD650.


----------



## J.Pocalypse

^ I really dig the simplicity.


----------



## WiR3D

Quote: 





deniall83 said:


> Pro-Ject Debut Carbon, Furutech ADL GT40, Sennheiser HD650.


 
  I was actually going to get my dad a similar rig, but it won't work. he needs tone controls arg...


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





deniall83 said:


> Pro-Ject Debut Carbon, Furutech ADL GT40, Sennheiser HD650.


 
   
  That GT40 seems like an amazing little package, how do you like it?


----------



## bixby

Quote: 





ashbeowulf said:


> Stock mdf platter!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Just be careful if you change the overall height of the vinyl surface with a new mat that you adjust the vertical tracking angle of the arm to compensate.  Some cartridges are picky about VTA and others are not so much, but any large change could change the sound quite dramatically.


----------



## Greyson

Quote: 





processjunkie said:


> Is that a Cinematic Orchestra vinyl? You sir, got some taste in music.


 
   
  I just picked up the new _In Motion Part 1_ double LP. According to the website its the first album in a series, i'm excited. The vinyl releases always sell out so quickly.


----------



## No Disc

The Scoutmaster is highly tweakable.  Is that even a word?


----------



## AuralRelations

Quote: 





no disc said:


> The Scoutmaster is highly tweakable.  Is that even a word?


 
   
  Nice! That's some crazy isolation platform. Who makes that?


----------



## No Disc

That's a custom isolation platform designed by me, and manufactured by Timbernation.


----------



## jr41

Quote: 





no disc said:


> The Scoutmaster is highly tweakable.  Is that even a word?


 
   
  Very nice, love VPI turntables.


----------



## Redcarmoose

A photograph I took of a friends VPI.
   
  Quote:


no disc said:


> The Scoutmaster is highly tweakable.  Is that even a word?


----------



## mechgamer123

My horribly non audiophile setup:
Technics SL-1600 given to me by a family member
Sure m92e cart
Pyle pro phono preamp
Limited pressing yellow vinyl copy of steely Dan's Aja sitting on the table.




Does anybody have any ideas for cost effective upgrades for my turntable setup?
By cost effective, I mean cheap and a good price/performance ratio...


----------



## AuralRelations

Perhaps invest in a new cart like a Shure M97xe or a Grado Black. Also, you should probably upgrade your phono stage. Look at the Musical Fidelity V-LPS II. I have the first generation V-LPS and it's great. Wish I had a phono stage with variable loading but that's going to be much more expensive.


----------



## Skylab

That's good advice, AR. On a Technics, the Shure M97xe would be a great start, especially if you do not know how many miles are on the current cartridge.


----------



## ]eep

And another upgrade that just came in...




The Kiseki Blue is a fine cartridge but it's not the best tracker. And when I saw this on Ebay at a good price I had to have it. I have been dreaming of this cart since the original review in HFN&RR in 1990. 




So here it is playing. 
The arm does need the extra weight (extra 3.5g) you see on top of the cart. The arm is only 9.5g and those Koetsu's are not very compliant. Resonance should be below 15 Hz now.

At the moment I'm modifying my Jolida preamp again.


----------



## mechgamer123

Quote: 





skylab said:


> That's good advice, AR. On a Technics, the Shure M97xe would be a great start, especially if you do not know how many miles are on the current cartridge.


 
  I actually replaced a Stanton Cart with unknown "miles" on it with the M92e, and I haven't had too many plays through it, but it is a BOTL Cart.
   
  Quote: 





auralrelations said:


> Perhaps invest in a new cart like a Shure M97xe or a Grado Black. Also, you should probably upgrade your phono stage. Look at the Musical Fidelity V-LPS II. I have the first generation V-LPS and it's great. Wish I had a phono stage with variable loading but that's going to be much more expensive.


 
  Thanks for the suggestion! I'll go do some research on it. I've heard though that Grados have issues with humming on Technics tables.
  Last year about this time Amazon had a sale on the M97xE for something like $45, I'm going to wait for a sale like that.
  Also, could anyone advise me on integrated phono pre-amps that are in vintage amps? Specifically the Pioneer QX-747 I believe.
  What does everyone use to clean their vinyl BTW?


----------



## No Disc

Since were posting pics of carts, here is mine that I got for about 350 euros.  The Monster Alpha is a very famous cartridge made by Monster Audio. It has
  been modified by A.J. Van den Hul with a new boron cantilever, a new VDH tip and a modified suspension. Result is that it is more dynamic and transparent
 as the original version and it has a better tracking,  Monster contracted with the designer of the ZYX carts, to make these.  Sound is superb.


----------



## AuralRelations

Quote: 





mechgamer123 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion! I'll go do some research on it. I've heard though that Grados have issues with humming on Technics tables.
> Last year about this time Amazon had a sale on the M97xE for something like $45, I'm going to wait for a sale like that.
> Also, could anyone advise me on integrated phono pre-amps that are in vintage amps? Specifically the Pioneer QX-747 I believe.
> What does everyone use to clean their vinyl BTW?


 
   
  I've had a Grado Black and Gold1 on my Technics without any hum. I've heard the same thing from other Technics owners about the Grado hum but take it with a grain of salt as I've never experienced such an issue. My Pioneer SX-850's phono stage is on the fritz so I haven't been able to compare it to my V-LPS but others seem to like the phono stages from their vintage integrated amps and receivers.


----------



## FSonicSmith

This is my Thorens TD124 which I had restored by James Campbell (who can be contacted at Jec@afo.net No connection-I have never met the man but I can vouch that he does great work!). James built the solid birch ply plinth and the armboard. Actually, he has built about seven armboards for me. As you can see, I have a VPI 9T arm mounted on it. In order to accomplish proper VTA, I had to remove the thumbwheel VTA adjustor on the arm column and add a Herbies mat and recess the armboard where the bracket for the junction box sits as detailed in the lower photo. I originally set up this table with an SME3009 SII that I had rewired and rebuilt by Alfred Keyser of smetonearms.com up in Canada. I was not happy with the SME arm. I found it clunky and outdated, though I respect those that coax great sound from it. I like VPI arms for their relative simplicity and compatability with more modern MC cartridges (again, a subject of honest debate). I have a VPI Classic too and with Benz Glider LOs, the sound is very similar, but distinctly different. The Classic is a bit more neutral bordering ever so slightly on the sterile side IMO, whereas the same record played on the TD124 sounds a bit punchier, The Classic can coax more detail and deeper bass, but subjectively the TD124 sounds more bass heavy as it seems to emphasize the mid-bass a bit. Some would consider this a fault, but it is subjectively pleasant in my listening room. I had a lot of folks tell me "good luck" mating a VPI 9T to a TD124. I have to think there a few if any who have the same combination. Needless to say, I am very happy with it.


----------



## Twinster

This is a very beautiful table. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Lucky your are.
  Quote: 





fsonicsmith said:


> This is my Thorens TD124 which I had restored by James Campbell (who can be contacted at Jec@afo.net No connection-I have never met the man but I can vouch that he does great work!). James built the solid birch ply plinth and the armboard. Actually, he has built about seven armboards for me. As you can see, I have a VPI 9T arm mounted on it. In order to accomplish proper VTA, I had to remove the thumbwheel VTA adjustor on the arm column and add a Herbies mat and recess the armboard where the bracket for the junction box sits as detailed in the lower photo. I originally set up this table with an SME3009 SII that I had rewired and rebuilt by Alfred Keyser of smetonearms.com up in Canada. I was not happy with the SME arm. I found it clunky and outdated, though I respect those that coax great sound from it. I like VPI arms for their relative simplicity and compatability with more modern MC cartridges (again, a subject of honest debate). I have a VPI Classic too and with Benz Glider LOs, the sound is very similar, but distinctly different. The Classic is a bit more neutral bordering ever so slightly on the sterile side IMO, whereas the same record played on the TD124 sounds a bit punchier, The Classic can coax more detail and deeper bass, but subjectively the TD124 sounds more bass heavy as it seems to emphasize the mid-bass a bit. Some would consider this a fault, but it is subjectively pleasant in my listening room. I had a lot of folks tell me "good luck" mating a VPI 9T to a TD124. I have to think there a few if any who have the same combination. Needless to say, I am very happy with it.


----------



## dscythe

I'm not going to take a picture of mine out of shame...but you guys have some awesome looking turntables!


----------



## jr41

Quote: 





fsonicsmith said:


> This is my Thorens TD124 [...]


 
   
  Very, very nice.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Agree.
   
  Quote: 





jr41 said:


> Very, very nice.


----------



## calipilot227

Gaaaaaaahhhhh.... the suspense is killing me. I'm eagerly awaiting delivery of my TD-145


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Gaaaaaaahhhhh.... the suspense is killing me. I'm eagerly awaiting delivery of my TD-145


 
   
   
  Waiting is the fun!


----------



## GetsugaSSJ

My first table!


----------



## grokit




----------



## calipilot227

Look what showed up on my doorstep today... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   

   

   

   
  Needs a little cleaning (edit: and a new belt), but it sounds incredible


----------



## palmfish

Looks very nice. Congrats!


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> Looks very nice. Congrats!


 
   
  Thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sounds like this arm is a better match for the M97 than the PL-518, to my ears. Next step is hopefully a Grado Reference Platinum (when the money supply allows it, of course).


----------



## palmfish

What do you hear that makes it better?


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> What do you hear that makes it better?


 
   
  Sound is much more open. Switching the cart to the PL-518 almost sounds muddy by comparison (although the difference isn't huge, but it's noticeable). It just seems like the lower-mass of the Thorens tonearm really makes the M97 come alive.
   
  edit: Note to self: don't attempt written communication without your morning coffee


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Sound is much more open. Switching the cart to the PL-518 almost sounds muddy by comparison (although the difference isn't huge, but it's noticeable). It just seems like the lower-mass of the Thorens tonearm really makes the M97 come alive.
> 
> edit: Note to self: don't attempt written communication without your morning coffee


 

 Cool, I'm glad to hear you like it and it was a step up for you! Enjoy!


----------



## calipilot227

Created a Thorens appreciation thread for anyone who's interested. Here's the link: http://www.head-fi.org/t/623040/the-thorens-appreciation-thread


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  If you can't afford the Platinum, the Sonata is still pretty good.  That's what I have on my table.  Haven't heard the Platinum to compare though, but the Sonata has a very rich, lush sound.
   
  Edit: My mistake.  My the word "platinum", I just assumed it was above the Sonata!  Anyhow, if the Sonata sounds great, I'm sure the Platinum sounds good as well.  The reviews I read on the platinum in the past were all good.


----------



## ImitationOfLife

Well, I didn't know where to post this, but if need be, I'll make a thread.
   
  Just a few moments ago I was setting up to rip a 45 I bought new and have never played before. Everything was swell until the stylus was lowering, but I accidentally had it right off the record, resulting in it dropping into the felt mat for a second. Right after that, it jumped up onto the edge of the record before I pulled it up.
   
  Do you think any damage was done? To my eye (without magnification, which really doesn't help) the stylus looks fine, but I want to be sure before I go ruining my beloved vinyl. I played a record I don't care about much, and it sounded fine...


----------



## AuralRelations

You should be fine. Just make sure the cantilever and suspension are still fine. If it's sagging or loose, you may want to replace the stylus. Get a jewelers loupe at least and see if the tip is OK. I've had something similar happen to me but the stylus was just fine.


----------



## ImitationOfLife

Quote: 





auralrelations said:


> You should be fine. Just make sure the cantilever and suspension are still fine. If it's sagging or loose, you may want to replace the stylus. Get a jewelers loupe at least and see if the tip is OK. I've had something similar happen to me but the stylus was just fine.


 

 Thank you.
   
  Suspension and cantilever both are fine, nothing different than before. Just searching for something to check out the tip with now...


----------



## Awooten82

My Music Hall MMF-7 The day I got it

   
  Loud and obnoxious in Hi-Fi

   
  What I have to say about MP3 formatting

   8P....  ;D


----------



## steelhead

My sony PS-Q7 wich i actually got from my dad like 2 years ago when i bought a Metallica Black Album LP just because im a huge fan. This thing was in the top drawer of the closet in its original box and i was like :O but the needle had to be replaced after that i cant say much about it is great.


----------



## ImitationOfLife

I suppose I'll pop in with another question--do any of you rip your vinyl? I'm hearing odd artifacts in the rips, which I can probably attribute to the soundcard on my Mac. At least I'm guessing. What else could it be?
   
  I don't really know how to describe it, but it's like the sound at 39 seconds in this video. Exactly like the iphone tone called "digital."
   
  Any help would be appreciated!


----------



## ImitationOfLife

Oh, wow, I just checked my CD copy of the vinyl in question and the noises are there if you listen closely. Must be poor recording quality. Still, I'm curious as to why these are there, but it's probably not fit for this thread.


----------



## jr41

Quote: 





steelhead said:


> My sony PS-Q7 wich i actually got from my dad like 2 years ago when i bought a Metallica Black Album LP just because im a huge fan. This thing was in the top drawer of the closet in its original box and i was like :O but the needle had to be replaced after that i cant say much about it is great.


 
   
  That's such a cool little player!


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





jr41 said:


> That's such a cool little player!


 
  Looks like it even has a headphone jack!


----------



## jr41

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> Looks like it even has a headphone jack!


 
   
  Good spot! I'm ditching my ipod and getting one of these babies! I wonder if they make an arm band so I can use it while running...


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





jr41 said:


> Good spot! I'm ditching my ipod and getting one of these babies! I wonder if they make an arm band so I can use it while running...


 
  Better get an long extension cord.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Treadmill. Or a hip mounted battery pack. 
   
  Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> Better get an long extension cord.


----------



## steelhead

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> Looks like it even has a headphone jack!


 
   
  Quote: 





jr41 said:


> That's such a cool little player!


 
  it is cool well maybe when i get more LPs i can enjoy it more  
  I has a headphone jack with volume control so its great for private listening (so much win)


----------



## jsplice

We need some more pics here, people


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> We need some more pics here, people


 
  So Pretty!


----------



## shaunybaby

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> We need some more pics here, people
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yeah i would love to post a picture of mine but it is yet to be delivered so bad luck on my part but as soon as i get it and set it up and decide weather or not i like vinyl then i will post a picture of my (hopefully new pride and joy) turntable.


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





shaunybaby said:


> Yeah i would love to post a picture of mine but it is yet to be delivered so bad luck on my part but as soon as i get it and set it up and decide weather or not i like vinyl then i will post a picture of my (hopefully new pride and joy) turntable.


 
  Which turntable did you get?


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> So Pretty!


 
  Thanks!  The one thing I don't like about most TTs out today is that they don't come with a dust cover.  Dust can be a real PITA when it piles up on the platter and plinth.  Any small gust of wind kicks it all up, and it ends up on the record.  I've actually thought about selling this one and trying out a Rega or Pro-Ject, or even a Music Hall.  I used to own the MMF-5.1 before I got this Clearaudio, and I miss the dust cover greatly.  There are companies that sell custom made dust covers, but the prices last time I looked were around $300, which is absolutely asinine for a clear fiberglass dustcover.  I'll get an entirely new turntable before I spend that much on a dust cover.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Right around $230 for a Dust Cover. I wouldn't go buying a new TT just for a friggin dust cover. It the grand scheme of things it's not that much and chances are your new table wouldn't be up to snuff...but you'd have a dustcover...
   
  Check Audiogon. That's where I'll be getting mine when my Notts comes in.
   
  Quote: 





jsplice said:


> Thanks!  The one thing I don't like about most TTs out today is that they don't come with a dust cover.  Dust can be a real PITA when it piles up on the platter and plinth.  Any small gust of wind kicks it all up, and it ends up on the record.  I've actually thought about selling this one and trying out a Rega or Pro-Ject, or even a Music Hall.  I used to own the MMF-5.1 before I got this Clearaudio, and I miss the dust cover greatly.  There are companies that sell custom made dust covers, but the prices last time I looked were around $300, which is absolutely asinine for a clear fiberglass dustcover.  I'll get an entirely new turntable before I spend that much on a dust cover.


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Right around $230 for a Dust Cover. I wouldn't go buying a new TT just for a friggin dust cover. It the grand scheme of things it's not that much and chances are your new table wouldn't be up to snuff...but you'd have a dustcover...
> 
> Check Audiogon. That's where I'll be getting mine when my Notts comes in.


 
  Well the idea is that the dust cover would give me an excuse to upgrade 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  But that's not in the cards right now.  I'm pretty happy with the Emotion and the Grado Sonata1, so why try and fix what isn't broken?  I should just buy stock in the company that makes Swiffers.


----------



## palmfish

I keep a dustcover on top of my dust cover. It cost less than $3.00 in materials to make it...


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> Thanks!  The one thing I don't like about most TTs out today is that they don't come with a dust cover.  Dust can be a real PITA when it piles up on the platter and plinth.  Any small gust of wind kicks it all up, and it ends up on the record.  I've actually thought about selling this one and trying out a Rega or Pro-Ject, or even a Music Hall.  I used to own the MMF-5.1 before I got this Clearaudio, and I miss the dust cover greatly.  There are companies that sell custom made dust covers, but the prices last time I looked were around $300, which is absolutely asinine for a clear fiberglass dustcover.  I'll get an entirely new turntable before I spend that much on a dust cover.


 
   

   
   
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VPC5003
   
   
   
  I used to have one of these covers. They kind-of work. Looks like it would fit your rig?
   
   
  Here is a VPI cover on another table.
   
   
   

   
   
   
  80 bucks maybe less?


----------



## Skylab

I don't see how a dust over that is open front and back is going to be very effective, honestly.


----------



## mteinum

Here is my Rega planar 3. Upgraded with 24V motor and the white belt. At the moment a rega Bias2 pickup hooked up to a Boozhound JFET RIAA.


----------



## Redcarmoose

2X


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I don't see how a dust over that is open front and back is going to be very effective, honestly.


 
  It actually worked really well, stopping about 95% of the dust. VPI sells whole clear boxes but they are more $.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah I have a Gingko Audio dust cover for my VPI. Yes, it was relatively expensive (although not really in the context of that turntable), but it does the job extremely well.


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yeah I have a Gingko Audio dust cover for my VPI. Yes, it was relatively expensive (although not really in the context of that turntable), but it does the job extremely well.


 
   
  That's a really nice dust cover.  That looks like the same kind they had for my Clearaudio 'table, can't remember the brand.  But I believe it was around $300.  I might just have to custom make one myself.
   
  Redcar, the one you showed from Audio Advisor looks decent too, but I'm also a bit skeptical like Skylab.  But hey, it couldn't be any worse than *not* having any dust cover at all, that's for sure.


----------



## Il Mostro

My humble Oracle MkIII, SME IV arm and wood body Benz cartridge.  This was the very last upgrade done by the late, and ever so great, Brooks Berdan.


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





il mostro said:


> My humble Oracle MkIII, SME IV arm and wood body Benz cartridge.  This was the very last upgrade done by the late, and ever so great, Brooks Berdan.


 
   
  Very nice.  How do you like the SME arm?


----------



## Il Mostro

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> Very nice.  How do you like the SME arm?


 
   
  Love it -- especially after Brooks re-wired in silver.  IMO, it is THE tonearm for this turntable.


----------



## dscythe

not exactly a high class solution, but i saw a turntable in a thrift store for $5 the other day, it looked seriously beat up and crappy...but it did have a dust cover that could be ripped off and placed on a different turntable


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





il mostro said:


> Love it -- especially after Brooks re-wired in silver.  IMO, it is THE tonearm for this turntable.


 
   
  I was curious about the table so googled it.  Didn't realize it was released in 1989; that's pretty amazing.  It looks way ahead of its time.  I've been pretty happy with my Clearaudio setup (had this table since early 2009), but there are just so many darn tables, arms, and carts out there to try.  Can't help but always be curious.


----------



## mechgamer123

Anyone have recommendations for cheap dust covers for my technics SL-1600? By cheap I mean like $20-$30?


----------



## DGNeo

Not my picture, as it's currently on its way to me, but you get the idea. I'll update when I have the table =]


----------



## shaunybaby

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> Which turntable did you get?


 
  Pro-Ject RPM 5.
  Quote: 





dgneo said:


> *SNIP*
> 
> Not my picture, as it's currently on its way to me, but you get the idea. I'll update when I have the table =]


 
   
   

   
   
  Same here, I'm waiting for mine too, can't wait to hear some music from it  I will also re-post some pictures of mine when i get it


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





shaunybaby said:


> Pro-Ject RPM 5.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Nice.  I used to have a Music Hall mmf-5.1 that used a Pro-Ject tonearm.  I've read very good things about the Pro-Ject tables as well.  Which cartridge did you get with it?


----------



## Eee Pee

I was under the impression that VPI used Bugatti Blue for their Traveler.  Nope!  
   
  You'll have that.  Still, it's pretty neat looking.
   
   

   
   
   
   
   
  Here's this again.  VPI HW-19 and the first JMW Memorial arm.
   
   

   
   
   
  I got to speak with Harry Weisfeld today.  That was pretty cool.  I was almost star struck.


----------



## SemiAudiophile

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> I was under the impression that VPI used Bugatti Blue for their Traveler.  Nope!
> 
> You'll have that.  Still, it's pretty neat looking.


 
  No wonder you got the Blue. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Very nice!


----------



## J.Pocalypse

Quote:  



Spoiler: pic



http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/673498/width/350/height/700


   


>


 
   
  Beautiful table you got there.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





j.pocalypse said:


> Beautiful table you got there.


 




   
  I got it back in the mid to late 90s with an Audioquest PT6 arm, upgraded platter and a mid tier Grado Prestige.  Then a Grado Sonata, then the Memorial arm.  It makes music!  I remember hearing this a lot, "Dude you got a whole room just for a stereo!?  Record player, too!?  Really!?"  
   
  Drop the needle on Dark Side Of The Moon...
   
  Turn off the lights and then, "Dude you got glow in the dark stars everywhere!?"


----------



## ]eep

It sounds to me as if you're missing the 'special ingredient'. 

That stuff steals 10% off your IQ-points with frequent use and makes anything sound good. So I don't recommend it. BTW where I live it's legal for private use (NL). I wonder for how long.:rolleyes: 

I remember when I first saw the HW19 on a hifi show some 25y ago. It was really exotic then. It had a Mörch DP6 on it. It sounded a whole lot better than the ubiquitous rubber or felt mat TT's like Thorens, Dual, Linn etc. I just realize that ever since then I wanted a plastic (vinyl/perspex or w/e) platter. The only thing that kept me so long was that I had a pretty decent Linn and that VPI is rather expensive here in Europe. They didn't have a 'cheap' model like the Traveler then...


----------



## Eee Pee

Oh, the lunatics were definitely on the grass.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Oh, the lunatics were definitely on the grass.


 
   
  Hello hello......is there anybody in there....?


----------



## ]eep

Say whaaa?
Hmm, I rather have a nice strong beer, like 10% Belgian. 


Oh dear! 
I feel a new project coming my way... nothing definite but it involves a separate base for a second tonearm to facilitate a classic MI cart. Maybe do a rebuild too. When I get up I'll know more (bidding over Down-Under time). I'm disclosing anything, there is only one bid yet (saying prayer now:rolleyes. It 'll be some project, but I know I can do it. I'm pretty good at woodworking and I have some nice pieces of vintage Ebony and more lying around. And the perfect arm to go with it (damped unipivot with carbon wand).

Update: 
I got it! And at a good price too. AU$ 350. So it looks like my project has the go ahead. This one has a spherical needle but that can be retipped at a decent price.




This is it.


----------



## SteveM324

I'm the original owner of this 25 Year Anniversary model Linn LP12 that I purchased in 1997.  I upgraded nearly everything on it earlier this year including the Radikal power supply, Keel subchassis, Ekos SE tonearm and Akiva MC cartridge.  Setup of this turntable is important and I had one of the best in the business, Thomas at Overature Audio in Ann Arbor, perform a tune up on my LP12.


----------



## spkrs01

Quote: 





stevem324 said:


> I'm the original owner of this 25 Year Anniversary model Linn LP12 that I purchased in 1997.  I upgraded nearly everything on it earlier this year including the Radikal power supply, Keel subchassis, Ekos SE tonearm and Akiva MC cartridge.  Setup of this turntable is important and I had one of the best in the business, Thomas at Overature Audio in Ann Arbor, perform a tune up on my LP12.


 
   
  Sweet, the LP 12 is such a rarity and an absolute bargain compared to the TOTL turntables available nowadays.....very listenable and engaging!


----------



## MorbidToaster

Only if you're an original owner. Buying a used one is a complete crap shoot unless you can account for their upkeep (like most turntables). They also begin to cost_ significantly _more as you upgrade them.


----------



## calipilot227

That looks amazing!!!


----------



## palmfish

I love the simple elegance. Classic form follows function beauty.


----------



## ]eep

spkrs01 said:


> Sweet, the LP 12 is such a rarity and an absolute bargain compared to the TOTL turntables available nowadays.....very listenable and engaging!



I think it looks nice but I totally disagree on that comment. A full blown LP12 costs €16000. The upgrades are way too pricey. The engineering is still top notch but they have totally run out of inspiration there at the Linn Co. Listenable yes, but that price is neither a bargain not is the performance TOTL. Where is the innovation? The new ideas? The vision? Al they can think of is tinkering and selling more and more elaborate ruses for selling basic components at premium prices. They sell a CNC machined slab of steel (Keel subchassis?) for more than the price of a complete Hanns T30 TT (10kg platter, 2 motors, triple bonded base, electronic motor mgmt). €3500. I think the VPI classic would give it a run for its money. Or the Clearaudio Ovation. Now there's innovation and sleek looks. 

I did own a Linn Axis until 5 y ago. Selling the 12y old was the best upgrade and I even won money on it. I allmost bought an LP12 in 1990 but I'm glad my dealer then advised against it and a tube-amp instead. I'm so glad he did (were still friends/-ly, just visited last Wednesday!). What about Funk Firm, Clearaudio, VPI, Feickert? I think if you hand your LP12 to the Funk Firm for an all out upgrade you would get a much better table. 

A low mass platter is only going so far. Why add tons of electronics when a few kg of inertia does the same? Why the silly felt mat that sticks to your records? All the vibration echos straight back from the bottom of the record straight to your stylus creating that fine sense of 'rhythm an pace'. Why not slap it down on a big fat slab with the same coefficient of elasticity so those vibrations never reach the stylus? That's what a vinyl (or perspex, POM or even Alu) platter does.


----------



## MorbidToaster

This is why I love Nottingham tables. Simple, very few upgrades...and I haven't heard anything better for even close to a decent price.


----------



## spkrs01

The LP12 has it's place in the market and gives a taste of high end analogue, even, at Euro16K. They are nurturing a sound signature which is very appealing to many owners. It is coloured! Do they need to innovate, I don't really think so, because if they did, it wouldn't be a LP12.
   
  Many adore the LP12, that is unquestionable. Comparing with other TOTL turntables, the LP12 is a bargain even at its price. TOTL turntables are outrageously priced nowadays unfortunately. The trouble with lots of the new turntables on the market place is that they are sounding more digital than analogue. Detail extraction being the main focal point of designers.
   
  The owners of the Funk Firm, if I am not mistaken, were behind the Pink Triangle in the 80s and they were about a different sound signature. It is the rhythm and pace that is so appealing about the Linn LP12. A well set up Linn LP12 is still, as I have said, a very listenable and engaging experience!
   
   
  Quote: 





]eep said:


> I think it looks nice but I totally disagree on that comment. A full blown LP12 costs €16000. The upgrades are way too pricey. The engineering is still top notch but they have totally run out of inspiration there at the Linn Co. Listenable yes, but that price is neither a bargain not is the performance TOTL. Where is the innovation? The new ideas? The vision? Al they can think of is tinkering and selling more and more elaborate ruses for selling basic components at premium prices. They sell a CNC machined slab of steel (Keel subchassis?) for more than the price of a complete Hanns T30 TT (10kg platter, 2 motors, triple bonded base, electronic motor mgmt). €3500. I think the VPI classic would give it a run for its money. Or the Clearaudio Ovation. Now there's innovation and sleek looks.
> I did own a Linn Axis until 5 y ago. Selling the 12y old was the best upgrade and I even won money on it. I allmost bought an LP12 in 1990 but I'm glad my dealer then advised against it and a tube-amp instead. I'm so glad he did (were still friends/-ly, just visited last Wednesday!). What about Funk Firm, Clearaudio, VPI, Feickert? I think if you hand your LP12 to the Funk Firm for an all out upgrade you would get a much better table.
> A low mass platter is only going so far. Why add tons of electronics when a few kg of inertia does the same? Why the silly felt mat that sticks to your records? All the vibration echos straight back from the bottom of the record straight to your stylus creating that fine sense of 'rhythm an pace'. Why not slap it down on a big fat slab with the same coefficient of elasticity so those vibrations never reach the stylus? That's what a vinyl (or perspex, POM or even Alu) platter does.


----------



## ProcessJunkie

After a couple months of anxiety and overal drolling around this thread, i'm finally a member of the club.
  
   
   

   
   
   

   
   

   
  Technics SL-Q03, found by totally accident on a fleet market near my work place. Apparently, it has the original cartridge and needle, 
 so i'm planning a upgrade soon, but it sound great as it is, hooked up to my Sound Blaster X-Fi HD via Phono.

 I'm so ridiculously happy with this.

 Ps: the TT is sitting on a somewhat tight space besides my desk, so i can't get a clear and wide shot of it, for now.


----------



## dscythe

Quote: 





processjunkie said:


> After a couple months of anxiety and overal drolling around this thread, i'm finally a member of the club.
> 
> Technics SL-Q03, found by totally accident on a fleet market near my work place. Apparently, it has the original cartridge and needle,
> so i'm planning a upgrade soon, but it sound great as it is, hooked up to my Sound Blaster X-Fi HD via Phono.
> ...


 
  That looks awesome! how much did you end up paying for it?


----------



## ProcessJunkie

@dscythe

 Converting to american dollars (i live in brazil), about $150.


----------



## dscythe

Quote: 





processjunkie said:


> @dscythe
> 
> Converting to american dollars (i live in brazil), about $150.


 
  sweet deal


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





			
				ProcessJunkie said:
			
		

> Technics SL-Q03, found by totally accident on a fleet market near my work place. Apparently, it has the original cartridge and needle,
> so i'm planning a upgrade soon, but it sound great as it is, hooked up to my Sound Blaster X-Fi HD via Phono.
> 
> I'm so ridiculously happy with this.
> ...


 






 Enjoy!


----------



## carlchip78




----------



## ProcessJunkie

@carlchip78

 Love this, man. What's spinning there?


----------



## carlchip78

Hey thanks ProcessJunkie, it's Bad As Me by Tom Waits spinning.


----------



## ]eep

I thought I would buy myself a happy birthday. Well not really I've plenty of friends, but this was coincidental. 

[img=187,250]http://www.freebits.nl/images/331Decca_London_Blue_in_b_tn.jpg[/img]
I received this beauty from down under the day after. 

And what good is all the hardware without good software? 
[img=250,187]http://www.freebits.nl/images/607nw_LP_s_tn.jpg[/img]
I know. I have terrible taste. And very limited (some are actually limited editions). But I'm open to suggestions.


----------



## vinyl addict

Modded SL-1200MK2 - ZYX R100H MC cartridge - ZYX Artisan battery operated phono stage - An all-out Japanese assault


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





]eep said:


> I know. I have terrible taste. And very limited (some are actually limited editions). But I'm open to suggestions.


 
  I see Johnny Cash in there. You're okay


----------



## MorbidToaster

There's a ton of good stuff there. Bad taste? Hardly.
  Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> I see Johnny Cash in there. You're okay


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





vinyl addict said:


> Modded SL-1200MK2 - ZYX R100H MC cartridge - ZYX Artisan battery operated phono stage - An all-out Japanese assault


 
   
  Very nice, love the matching cart/weight. What mat is that?


----------



## sharkz

Quote: 





vinyl addict said:


> Modded SL-1200MK2 - ZYX R100H MC cartridge - ZYX Artisan battery operated phono stage - An all-out Japanese assault


 
   
  Corrugated cardboard mat? Looks interesting.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> There's a ton of good stuff there. Bad taste? Hardly.


 
   
  That's what I was attempting to say


----------



## vinyl addict

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  It's actually an outer periphery ring clamp with brass lugs on the underside for additional weight.  Here are some better pics...


----------



## Il Mostro

Quote: 





stevem324 said:


> I'm the original owner of this 25 Year Anniversary model Linn LP12 that I purchased in 1997.  I upgraded nearly everything on it earlier this year including the Radikal power supply, Keel subchassis, Ekos SE tonearm and Akiva MC cartridge.  Setup of this turntable is important and I had one of the best in the business, Thomas at Overature Audio in Ann Arbor, perform a tune up on my LP12.


 
   
  This is a real beauty that brings back fond memories.  LP12 (Trampolin) was a wonderfully colored TT to my ears.  Lovely stuff that never goes out of style either visually or sonically.


----------



## No Disc

Is the a custom clamp?
   
   
  Quote: 





vinyl addict said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ]eep

That clamp almost makes a Technics look good. I like the look of it but at the same time I'm wondering if it isn't a very time consuming way of making a heavy ring. I like to stick to KISS (or Ockhams Razor if you are feeling philosophic), less is more, minimalism, form follows function. 



Somehow I have the distict feeling I'm undermining my own argument. :rolleyes: 

The arm is the only thing I would suggest updating. The Funk Firm does incredible things with that. Have a look.



> Originally Posted by *calipilot227*
> 
> 
> I see Johnny Cash in there. You're okay



Yeah, I know, Miles is total crap, but it's a kind of must have for demonstrations... 

And I know some really dislike PJ Harveys White Chalk. She can't sing, it sounds like crap and most of all: the album is way to short. :rolleyes:


----------



## vinyl addict

> ]eep said:
> 
> 
> > That clamp almost makes a Technics look good. I like the look of it but at the same time I'm wondering if it isn't a very time consuming way of making a heavy ring. I like to stick to KISS (or Ockhams Razor if you are feeling philosophic), less is more, minimalism, form follows function.
> ...


 
*The Funk upgrades are not cheap*





 * $600 for the platter and $960 for the arm...in British pounds I might add*




   
  Quote: 





no disc said:


> Is the a custom clamp?


 
*The ring is by TTWeights Audio but the brass lugs was something I glued on.*


----------



## MorbidToaster

I love weights and rings. Are you using one of their center weights, too?
   
  Quote: 





vinyl addict said:


> *The ring is by TTWeights Audio but the brass lugs was something I glued on.*


----------



## vinyl addict

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I love weights and rings. Are you using one of their center weights, too?


 
  Correct.  It's a 200g lightweight clamp which is different from their weights.  The clamps are lighter and _clamps _the spindle as you rotate the top section.
  Whereas, the weight is just a_ weight_ and is much heavier.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I prefer weights to clamps so I'll probably end up with one of each. If nothing else it adds a touch of class to most TTs, IMO. 
   
  But the ring weight will especially help as I buy a lot of stuff from second hand shops.
   
  Quote: 





vinyl addict said:


> Correct.  It's a 200g lightweight clamp which is different from their weights.  The clamps are lighter and _clamps _the spindle as you rotate the top section.
> Whereas, the weight is just a_ weight_ and is much heavier.


----------



## vinyl addict

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I prefer weights to clamps so I'll probably end up with one of each. If nothing else it adds a touch of class to most TTs, IMO.
> 
> But the ring weight will especially help as I buy a lot of stuff from second hand shops


 
  I prefer weights over clamps as well, however, putting too much weight on a smallish bearing (Technics 1200) will lead to premature bearing wear.
   
  Most used record stores (in my area) price vinyl according to condition so if it's warped they usually give 30% off. 
  Now that I have a periphery ring, record warps is the least of my worries...
   
  Happy shopping dewd


----------



## ]eep

> The Funk upgrades are not cheap $600 for the platter and $960 for the arm...in British pounds I might add



Whoopsie! That sure ain't cheap! You must be a really, really convinced Technics direct drive fan if you are committing to such an upgrade. Which I am certainly and clearly not. 

I have invested a lot of money in vinyl playback by now (and over >25 years I might add to my defense). I know it doesn't always have to cost a lot, but there are less shortcuts in vinyl playback then there are in CD-playback (forget that, CD is outdated) digital playback. I have always maintained the position that the LP is superior in quality, and still is. Against a storm of criticism, public opinion and peer pressure I might add. You won't believe the strange looks and faint smiles (must be an odd 'audiophile' freak) I've received over the years, and comments about 'nostalgia', 'ritual' and more of those terms more related to religion that just audio playback. All of those opinions mostly faded after 10 seconds of comparative listening... it's just no comparison. Ive spend a lot of money, but I think it's worth it and I enjoy it. 

FIY: my cd-player is from China, completely modified by me, CS4397 DAC+5670 tubes. Plays <24/192 from CD or HD. All incl. cost about €300. Sound: almost as good as it gets in digital playback. 
My hard disk playback: old broken windows laptop+ 1TB ext HD + 8" touchscreen + Musiland monitor 01US + 4xTDA1543 NOS DAC. €300. Plays 24/96. Sound; I wouldn't say better, different but more natural and absorbing. 
Analog: Clearaudio Performance + Koetsu Urushi + Audio Innovations tranny + Jolida phono. I payed about €4000 new/2ndH + modified. Sound: if you are of the 'measuring is knowing' persuasion then it sounds absolutely crap. Well, it doesn't. Not really.  It sounds like you can't stop playing till you can't keep your eyes open at 4 in the morning. 

A decent turntable costs money. But it sure is worth it.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Seen it done before here and there doesn't seem to be a better place so I'll ask.
   
  I was planning on going with an Ortofon 2M series cart on my upcoming TT, but after doing some calculations today I realized that would be a weird idea because of the stage I'm looking at. 
   
  The Moon 310LP (via XLR) gives me adjustable gain from 46 to 72db. I'm now looking at low output MC carts. I could use the MM carts just fine, but I think an MC will be a better choice. 
   
  Any recommendations at (max) $1000? I'm looking at the Zu DL-103, Ortofon Rondo Blue, and Benz Ace SL at this point.


----------



## vinyl addict

Don't know what arm you plan to pair it with....(I have no experience with the carts you mentioned)
   
  I'm a big fan of ZYX carts and love the R100H (0.48mV).  Second choice is Dynavector Karat 17D3 (0.3mV).  These are suitable with light(ish) mass arms.
   
  Happy hunting


----------



## MorbidToaster

The Rondo cart seems like the choice to beat so far (due to the 310LP being right at 100 ohm). That Dynavector at .3 is definitely one I'll look into though it seems it's on the higher side of the budget. 
   
  EDIT: My dealer recommended the Shelter 501 mkII. Reading up on it a little bit and it seems like a good buy (again stretching the budget).
   
  Quote: 





vinyl addict said:


> Don't know what arm you plan to pair it with....(I have no experience with the carts you mentioned)
> 
> I'm a big fan of ZYX carts and love the R100H (0.48mV).  Second choice is Dynavector Karat 17D3 (0.3mV)
> 
> Happy hunting


----------



## GetsugaSSJ

Here's my turntable and some pictures of all my records so far. It's not much but it's awesome.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Never realized Metalheads got such cool vinyl...I should buy more metal. 
   
  Quote: 





getsugassj said:


> Here's my turntable and some pictures of all my records so far. It's not much but it's awesome.


----------



## ]eep

getsugassj said:


> Here's my turntable and some pictures of all my records so far. It's not much but it's awesome.




I really like the artwork and overall attention to detail! It makes me greedy. 

All this in stark contrast to the lyrics unfortunately. Never judge a book by it's cover. Or as somebody else said it (and more to the point) like white chalked graves (white and shiny on the outside but the stench of death inside). That's maybe not so much a matter of taste as it is choice. But it's your choice of course.

On another note...

I received my Okki Nokkie record cleaner today. :biggrin:
So now I'm cleaning, cleaning, cleaning. And I dug up my bottle of Milty Permostat. Now I can safely apply it to a clean record and a good platter to apply it. No more static! :wink_face:


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





semiaudiophile said:


> No wonder you got the Blue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Just packed it up.  Exchanging it for a black.  I tried for 28 days to let the two blues (Sonett's Bugatti blue is wonderful) sit well next to each other, but they weren't.  The Traveler's blue is fine on its own, maybe a hair dark for me, but it was fine, until I looked at the Sonett.
   
  I never REALLY paid attention to how many different shades of blue there are in my life!  Wow!  Black is black, and that's simple, and that's more my style.
   
  Thumbsup for Musicdirect.


----------



## SemiAudiophile

50 shades of blue? 
   
  I never really cared for the Bugatti blue before, but after a while it really grows on you. I dig it now, it's got that retro look to it. 
   
  Black is simple. You only have to choose whether you want piano black (gloss finish) or matte. 
   
  How's that Traveler of yours?


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





semiaudiophile said:


> 50 shades of blue?
> 
> I never really cared for the Bugatti blue before, but after a while it really grows on you. I dig it now, it's got that retro look to it.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yeah I have no idea how many shades of blue there really are, but it's too many!
   
  I like matte black a lot.  The Traveler black is a powder coat, so it will have some sheen to it, but nothing like piano finish, a.k.a. fingerprint champion of the world.
   
   

   
   
  For 27 days I enjoyed the Traveler, despite the thoroughly used cartridge bought in 1998 and a phono stage from inside the first Rega Brio.  I used it for probably half those 27 days to take it easy on the records as I'm certain the Grado Sonata is done.  I really like the ritual of vinyl and watching things happen.  The sound was very nice by the time my head made the adjustments after a couple album sides, but again, I took it pretty easy to spare the records.
   
  I plan on a new cartridge, phono stage and picking up a Spin Cleaner really soon, then take a week off from work and submerse myself in my collection.  Clean, listen and repeat until I've heard every one of them.  The hard part is deciding what to buy, as usual.  Harry from VPI told me (to extremely paraphrase) the Traveler scales up tremendously well and don't be afraid to throw a lot of money at a cart and think the table is holding it back.  Which of course doesn't make deciding any easier as I'm well aware of how well any vinyl rig scales up when you throw money at it.


----------



## ]eep

eee pee said:


> Just packed it up.  Exchanging it for a black.  I tried for 28 days to let the two blues (Sonett's Bugatti blue is wonderful) sit well next to each other, but they weren't.  The Traveler's blue is fine on its own, maybe a hair dark for me, but it was fine, until I looked at the Sonett.
> 
> I never REALLY paid attention to how many different shades of blue there are in my life!  Wow!  Black is black, and that's simple, and that's more my style.
> 
> Thumbsup for Musicdirect.



That's always the case with different brand components. Always. 
_Black is black, and that's simple,_ is so not true. Don't you ever wear black clothes? Black can be any color of the rainbow, just darker. When you put them next to eachother you will see that black is never the same, brushed Alu is nevert the same and completely different from sandblasted, anodised or eloxised. There are about 2 million discernable shades of blue. So what did you expect? 

As a rule of thumb you should only pick one item in a bright or contrasting color and keep the rest in basic finish like black, grey or metal. This way the accent color gets all the attention and you tend to notice smaller differences. Create a diversion with your right hand so nobody sees what you do with your left, just like a magician.  I must say the blue pre-amp is quite provocative. I would go for a turntable as the showstopper because it lends itself pretty well for that role. But in this case the TT was the bridesmaid looking more beautiful than the bride. A bit of a shame because they both look stunning. 

It's the sound that counts, right?




And now for something completely different... 
I received a new arm yesterday. It's a Consonance T988 dampened unipivot. It's a great arm, but boy, is it finnicky. It's a real hassle to set up. I need to make a new armbase first before I can set it up for real. It'll be a while before I'm done.


----------



## Quinto

Got this TTMusic Hall 9.1 with the Goldring eroica LX  cart last week, replaced my good old SL1200mk2
   
  Classical and Jazz sounds briljant on this TT, so darn silent  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Nice gear you guys have! Keep the pictures coming!!


----------



## sharkz

I really like the looks of the Traveler. I am seriously considering one of those when I get my own place next month.
   
  I have been using the same 30+ year old Philips table the past 5 years and while it sounds great, I feel like a newer table will be a worthwhile improvement. I think right now, my table is the bottleneck in my system.
   
  I am scared to go for a listen though, I know it will make me want to buy one ASAP......


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





sharkz said:


> I really like the looks of the Traveler. I am seriously considering one of those when I get my own place next month.
> 
> I have been using the same 30+ year old Philips table the past 5 years and while it sounds great, I feel like a newer table will be a worthwhile improvement. I think right now, my table is the bottleneck in my system.
> 
> I am scared to go for a listen though, I know it will make me want to buy one ASAP......


 

 It's not a Philips 212 by chance, is it?
   
  My dad had one and I've been hoping to cross paths with one again some day.


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





quinto said:


> Got this TTMusic Hall 9.1 with the Goldring eroica LX  cart last week, replaced my good old SL1200mk2
> 
> Classical and Jazz sounds briljant on this TT, so dann silent
> 
> ...


 
  That is a beautiful TT.  I used to own a 5.1 and always lusted over the 9.1.  I also love that it has a dust cover.  That's one thing that I really miss about the 5.1 that I don't have on my Emotion.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Why not just make/buy one? I'd remove the dust cover as soon as I got it and just use it as a 'pull on pull off' dust cover. I've never been a fan of attached covers.
   
  The 9.1 was one I was considering recently, too.
   
  Quote: 





jsplice said:


> That is a beautiful TT.  I used to own a 5.1 and always lusted over the 9.1.  I also love that it has a dust cover.  That's one thing that I really miss about the 5.1 that I don't have on my Emotion.


----------



## sharkz

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> It's not a Philips 212 by chance, is it?
> 
> My dad had one and I've been hoping to cross paths with one again some day.


 

 Close, Philips 777. Actually purchased by my dad in college. Its been a great table, has a suspension in it, I just think I could do better with something a little more upscale and modern. Actually before I do anything, I need to invest in a SpinClean.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





sharkz said:


> Close, Philips 777. Actually purchased by my dad in college. Its been a great table, has a suspension in it, I just think I could do better with something a little more upscale and modern. Actually before I do anything, I need to invest in a SpinClean.


 
   
  Looks nice!
   
  Philips - another company that couldn't compete in the dawn of home theater...


----------



## RamblinE

There are some awesome turntables in this thread. I hope you don't mind my little baby Technics (SL-B2, Grado Green. Going to replace that Gemini headshell with a Technics headshell VERY soon). I took the photo, a friend on Audiokarma touched it up for me really nice


----------



## vinyl addict

Quote: 





sharkz said:


> > Actually before I do anything, I need to invest in a SpinClean.


 
  For $80 it's a definite worthwhile investment


----------



## calipilot227

I would suggest the KAB EV1 instead of the spin clean


----------



## Skylab

I'm back with another vintage pickup, a Pioneer PL-50. Just got this yesterday. Put a NOS Shure Hi-Track cartridge on it. Sounds pretty good, when it holds speed :rolleyes: Hopefully I can figure that little issue out. Sure looks pretty though, after I gave it a good cleaning:


----------



## BmWr75

I have one of the PL-50s too Rob in near mint condition.  Nice deck.


----------



## Skylab

Cool, Scott! It sure is a looker. I swapped in a Shure V15 Type IV and that sounded much better than the Hi Track.


----------



## SemiAudiophile

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> I would suggest the KAB EV1 instead of the spin clean


 
  Thanks for reminding me. That's actually gonna be my next upgrade. So many dirty records.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





semiaudiophile said:


> Thanks for reminding me. That's actually gonna be my next upgrade. So many dirty records.


 
   
  It is probably one of the best investments you can make for vinyl (besides a turntable, of course). It reportedly does just as good of a job as the more expensive Nitty Gritty machines.


----------



## ]eep

I just got me an Okki Nokki. It is made here in the Netherlands so for me the logical choice. I really wanted one now because it's a waste to wear my Koetsu cart on dusty records. 
It still is a lot of work to clean all records but it works excellent and quick. And afterwards aplying the Milty Permostat is a lot easier. Clean disks and no more static attraction of dust... I should have bought one years earlier!

Another relatively cheap and good cleaner is the Hanns acoustics ( Amari) record cleaner that is made in China.


----------



## sharkz

I am actually looking into the KAB EV1 too thanks to suggestions on this thread. I am seriously considering getting one of these, especially as I move into a new apartment and space will be at a premium. Plus I think it will do a better job than my home made vacuum head attached to whatever vacuum I can find.


----------



## ]eep

I have just received a new arm. It's a Consonance T988 dampened unipivot that I intend to use with a Decca London Blue. And anything else I have. I can easily exchange armstubes with this arm just like a VPI only way cheaper. 
I am thinking about adding it in this position. 



Or maybe I should switch positions with the motor? That way I can mount it on a square slab of granite 10x33cm. Easier to make but the on/off switch will be harder to access. What do you guys think?


----------



## Skylab

Doesn't the tonearm have to be in one of the corners to have the geometry work? I don't think you could put it where the motor is. What sort of protractor are you using?


----------



## Eee Pee

Doesn't have to be in a corner, just a specific distance from the center. So you could have a big round plinth with as many tonearms as you could squeeze in on the circular plinth.


----------



## Eee Pee

Here's the black Traveler.  I'm much more at _ease_ with this than the (off) blue one.


----------



## MorbidToaster

The Traveler is a pretty table. If I were planning on 2 tables the Traveler would probably be my second choice.
   
  Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Here's the black Traveler.  I'm much more at _ease_ with this than the (off) blue one.


----------



## ]eep

There is a protractor with the arm. The seller forgot to put it back in the box but he promised to send it later. I do have A Linn protractor but IIRC that has a different spindle distance. And I have a Clearaudio protractor for aligning the needle correctly. 

Common sense dictates that you can put the arm anywhere as long as the distance to the spindle is right. So I visualised it rotating around that point. The motor is supposed to sit in the spare space in the corner and is perfectly happy in this place as well. 

One more problem if I would swap places from what is shown in the foto is that the armlift will be on the wrong side.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





]eep said:


> There is a protractor with the arm. The seller forgot to put it back in the box but he promised to send it later. I do have A Linn protractor but IIRC that has a different spindle distance. And I have a Clearaudio protractor for aligning the needle correctly.
> Common sense dictates that you can put the arm anywhere as long as the distance to the spindle is right. So I visualised it rotating around that point. The motor is supposed to sit in the spare space in the corner and is perfectly happy in this place as well.
> One more problem if I would swap places from what is shown in the foto is that the armlift will be on the wrong side.


 
   
  Right, the key is on most turntables there is not room on the plinth anywhere other than the corners where the arm pivot can be far enough from the center to work.  I see that there is a cut-out on the side of yours, so maybe that will indeed work.


----------



## fleasbaby

A Technics SL1200 MKII rescued from an abusive DJ and restored to (almost) factory standard with a new tonearm, dustcover, 45 adapter, Technics headshell and a slightly thicker than normal rubber platter mat from KAB Audio...using an AT440MLA cart and needle...


----------



## grokit

Very nice, I just finished doing something pretty similar with mine!


----------



## plantsman

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> The Rondo cart seems like the choice to beat so far (due to the 310LP being right at 100 ohm). That Dynavector at .3 is definitely one I'll look into though it seems it's on the higher side of the budget.
> 
> EDIT: My dealer recommended the Shelter 501 mkII. Reading up on it a little bit and it seems like a good buy (again stretching the budget).


 

 I have not heard the Ortofon or the ZYX but I have heard the Shelter, stock Denon 103s and the Benz.  Personally I would pick the Dynavector 17D3.  It is a bitch to set up given the short and hard to see cantilever but once dialed in it is a very good cartridge.   It doesn't have massive bass although the bass is well defined. The Shelter, Benz and Denon (at least a stock one) all sound more colored and "slower" to my ears.  I think there are still some NOS Lyra Dorian and Argo i cartridges around.  IMO those would also be worth considering.


----------



## bacobits

Another pict of my Upgraded Rega P5.

  Upgrades are>> Groovetracer  Ref sub platter, Groovetracer counterweight, Groovetracer Delrin platter, Lim double pulley and double white belts, RB 700 drilled through plinth and fastened by wing nuts. Cardas rewire is next just have not gotten to it yet. I also have Michell Techno Weight for my heavier cartridges.


----------



## fleasbaby

What were the upgrades? I always think a Rega would be on the cards for me if the Technics kicked the bucket...


----------



## Eee Pee

Got a new Soundsmith MMP3 phono stage.  Stuck it under the Traveler for stealth mode.
   
   

   
   
   

   
   
   
  I gotta get a real camera.


----------



## MorbidToaster

How do you like the Grado? I'm considering one.


----------



## Eee Pee

Little bass heavy, smooooth through the middle and a little rolled off up top. At first I thought it was a little dull and opaque, but as the hours went by I was thinking it's just missing some glare and etch that I get from the older digital stuff I have cause it was sounding good!

Purchased in 1998, it's got some miles on it for sure. I wouldn't hesitate to replace it with another one.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'm going to be basically purchasing my secondary vinyl rig next week as I found a nice used VPI for a good price. 
   
  Spur of the moment kind of thing...and I'm sick of being turntable-less at the moment. Slapping a cheap cart on right away but ultimately I think I might have this Grado as the end game cart for it.
   
  Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Little bass heavy, smooooth through the middle and a little rolled off up top. At first I thought it was a little dull and opaque, but as the hours went by I was thinking it's just missing some glare and etch that I get from the older digital stuff I have cause it was sounding good!
> Purchased in 1998, it's got some miles on it for sure. I wouldn't hesitate to replace it with another one.


----------



## Battou62

Hey guys. I am going to get my Dad a turntable for Christmas, but I know nothing about them. He wants to be able to convert his old vinyl collection to digital. I am looking for something not too expensive, but I want to get him one that is quality also. Any suggestions?


----------



## Eee Pee

morbidtoaster said:


> I found a nice used VPI




Which one, eh? 



battou62 said:


> He wants to be able to convert his old vinyl collection to digital. I am looking for something not too expensive, but I want to get him one that is quality also. Any suggestions?



http://m.computerworld.com/s/article/9136270/Review_5_USB_turntables_convert_LPs_to_MP3s


----------



## MorbidToaster

eee pee said:


> Which one, eh?
> http://m.computerworld.com/s/article/9136270/Review_5_USB_turntables_convert_LPs_to_MP3s




VPI HW-19 mkII

My dealer vouches for condition so unless it's borked when delivered I'm buyin' it.


----------



## Eee Pee

morbidtoaster said:


> VPI HW-19 mkII




Nice! I started with the 19 Jr and the MkII platter and Audioquest PT6 arm, then JMW arm. Check that the little squishy things in the corners under the plinth aren't flat from age. Mine are and I made some shims to bring the plinth back up to the right height so the pulley isn't touching the cover in the corner.

That is assuming the MkII uses those?


----------



## plantsman

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Little bass heavy, smooooth through the middle and a little rolled off up top. At first I thought it was a little dull and opaque, but as the hours went by I was thinking it's just missing some glare and etch that I get from the older digital stuff I have cause it was sounding good!


 
  I think that captures what I hear in the Grado wood body voicing although I've only spent time with the higher output Reference series and not the low output Statement series.  The voicing definitely tilts toward warm rather than cool. The knocks on the Grados are that they don't track extremely well, they are more arm sensitive than some cartridges and that they aren't the most resolving/transparent cartridges in their respective price classes.  The tracking and arm compatibility/resonance issues can sometimes lead to the infamous "Grado dance."


----------



## mark_h




----------



## Eee Pee

Looks good mark_h.  I like the high finger lift, the VPIs are always low and leave little room.
   
  Speaking of warm rather than cool, I just opened this.
   
  "Formats come and go, but nothing sounds as good and as warm as a vinyl recording."


----------



## ]eep

I kind of resent that bit: _warm as a vinyl recording_
It should be neutral like any reproduction. 'Warm' denotes some kind of coloration and that's not hifi. That's 'myfi'. 

mark_h that Lenco looks very good for a vintage table. No frills and very stylish in pianoblack.
I'm wondering what else I'm looking at. I know I've seen the arm before but I can't remember what it is (I thought Decca but thats not it). The cartridge looks like a custom body DL103.
Edit: See, it's the Naim Aro arm :rolleyes: Looks great on it.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





]eep said:


> I kind of resent that bit: _warm as a vinyl recording_
> It should be neutral like any reproduction.


 
  I don't disagree.  Good news is that it sounds good!


----------



## Battou62

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Which one, eh?
> http://m.computerworld.com/s/article/9136270/Review_5_USB_turntables_convert_LPs_to_MP3s


 
  Thank you for that link. These seem more expensive than I thought. It is possible to run the output of the turntable into a sound card? Could this be a cheaper alternative to getting a usb turntable?


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





battou62 said:


> Thank you for that link. These seem more expensive than I thought. It is possible to run the output of the turntable into a sound card? Could this be a cheaper alternative to getting a usb turntable?


 
   
  What kind of amplifier will the turntable be plugged into? You need to know because a turntable needs a phono preamp in order to function. Some turntables have them built in and others you need to buy one separately.
   
  The article linked above is 3 years old and some of those models have been updated. You should visit Amazon.com and type in "USB turntable" to get an idea of current prices. USB turntables such as these have a built in preamp and are plug and play via USB to a computer - this is what you should be looking for IMO.


----------



## ]eep

battou62 said:


> Thank you for that link. These seem more expensive than I thought. It is possible to run the output of the turntable into a sound card? Could this be a cheaper alternative to getting a usb turntable?



No you can't. You need a phono pre-amp to adjust for the RIAA frequency curve and amplify to line level. 

It depends on what you want but vinyl is never cheap if you want quality. And if you have a decent TT what's the use of digitising? Just play the LP like it's supposed to. 
If you want the 10 old albums that you know from way back, there's a good chance you can download them somewhere. There are several ppl out there doing it for you with (most of the time) better equipment for the illusive discs. If you own the album that means you already paid the artist, right?

And if you want to do it yourself the best option is to get a decent used turntable and phono-amp (like the Pro-ject, Rega, Music Hall or better), get the job done and then sell it again from where you got it (Audiogon; Ebay etc). This way it will hardly cost you anything and you can enjoy the music while you're at it and not some half baked sorry excuse for music reproduction. 
You buy for, say, $750 and sell it when you're done for $700. It is an investment but then you will at least know what vinyl can do.

And don't forget to clean your albums thoroughly before recording anything. Good software handling is vital.


----------



## Battou62

Thanks for the responses guys, very helpful.


----------



## Eee Pee

Little surprise when I opened a new record.
   

   
  It's Porcupine Tree's Voyage 34.  And you gotta have your glasses on.
   
   
   
   

   
  Weeeeeeeeeeee!


----------



## tattare

Quote: 





fleasbaby said:


> A Technics SL1200 MKII rescued from an abusive DJ and restored to (almost) factory standard with a new tonearm, dustcover, 45 adapter, Technics headshell and a slightly thicker than normal rubber platter mat from KAB Audio...using an AT440MLA cart and needle...


 
  How long did it take you to get your gear from KAB Audio?


----------



## fleasbaby

Quote: 





tattare said:


> How long did it take you to get your gear from KAB Audio?


 
   
  It took a little while...I forget precisely how long, but it was to the tune of about a month. The dustcover was the holdup...
   
  Given that Technics is no longer producing these, parts are becoming a little tougher to find. You should have seen the rigmarole I went through to find someone to install the tonearm (the soldering was just too fine for me to think about trying). I ended up driving the thing to the next city to get a guy who works on guitar amps usually to do the job.


----------



## tattare

Quote: 





fleasbaby said:


> It took a little while...I forget precisely how long, but it was to the tune of about a month. The dustcover was the holdup...
> 
> Given that Technics is no longer producing these, parts are becoming a little tougher to find. You should have seen the rigmarole I went through to find someone to install the tonearm (the soldering was just too fine for me to think about trying). I ended up driving the thing to the next city to get a guy who works on guitar amps usually to do the job.


 
  Ohh word.  Well I got a reply from KAB and I wish I ordered two of them now and two dust covers.
   


> mats are on order with Panasonic.
> I do expect them soon, but do not currently have an ETA I will try to get
> that from Pansonic today.
> Sorry for delay
> ...


 
  I recently received a phone call from my dad asking if I was still looking for a technics turntable.  He told me he just picked up two sl-1200 mk2's at a estate sale for me for $50.  He turned them on and they seem to work but are missing headshell/cart and mats.  One of them has the UK power plug with a US adapter.  Iv yet to see the turntables but hopefully they are not destroyed.  Ill probably play around with them myself but luckily I have a repair place locally here in Boise if its over my head. http://audiovideorepair.net   How much did you invest into your overhaul?


----------



## fleasbaby

That sounds about right...I did the extra thick platter mat personally...only thing not stock on mine.
   
  That's a super sweet deal your dad got...at that price, you can't go wrong. All in-all, I guess I ended up paying about $500 for mine after all the repairs (not including the super-sweet AT440MLA cart and needle my confused but generous mother-in-law gave me for Christmas for it). Well worth every penny. The thing far outshines every other turntable I have ever had, despite the years of abuse it suffered before I took it in.
   
  If you shop around you can still, maybe, find these new, or near-mint, but they go for about $1000.


----------



## Skylab

I just put the elusive S arm on my Denon DP-59L. It's pretty sweet! Cartridge is a Nagaoka MP-500.


----------



## No Disc

Nice looking table.
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I just put the elusive S arm on my Denon DP-59L. It's pretty sweet! Cartridge is a Nagaoka MP-500.


----------



## Eee Pee

Yeah, great looking table!
   
  What are the knobs on the right on the base of the arm?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Yeah, great looking table!
> 
> What are the knobs on the right on the base of the arm?


 
   
  Thanks.  They are for anti-skate, and resonance damping.


----------



## tattare

The $50 turntables my dad picked up at a estate sale and mailed to me.
  both are the international model with the 110-120v/220-240v setting and the europe power prong.
   
  can anyone help me figure out the date?
  NH1GJ52XXX
  NH1GJ52XXX
  the last 3 digits are within 8 numbers of each other.


----------



## fleasbaby

Quote: 





tattare said:


> The $50 turntables my dad picked up at a estate sale and mailed to me.
> both are the international model with the 110-120v/220-240v setting and the europe power prong.
> 
> can anyone help me figure out the date?
> ...


 
   
  I would say maybe 2001, July?
   
  Those look like they are in great shape...


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





skylab said:


> and resonance damping.


 
   
  I figured one was anti skate, but couldn't think what the second one would be.  That's pretty neat.  Any idea how it goes about doing its thing?  Can you hear a difference?


----------



## Eee Pee

Oh boy!  I got some new stuff!


----------



## sharkz

Seriously, I am very jealous of that rig. A Traveler is on my wishlist for my next table and I think the DNA Sonett is one of the best looking amps out there, bar none. Plus the new cleaner should result in some super silent vinyl.
   
  I am currently working my way up to a KAB EV1 sometime in the next few weeks. My paint pad record vacuuming system just isn't doing as much as I would like. I am hoping the EV1 makes a bigger difference.


----------



## Skylab

eee pee said:


> Oh boy!  I got some new stuff!




And very cool new stuff, too!




eee pee said:


> I figured one was anti skate, but couldn't think what the second one would be.  That's pretty neat.  Any idea how it goes about doing its thing?  Can you hear a difference?




So supposedly it will shift the tonearm resonance frequency around so that the DP-59L can use pretty much any cartridge on the planet. I've never really had a resonance problem that I know of, though, so I can't really say I can hear a difference.


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Oh boy!  I got some new stuff!


 
  Nice.  I'm also running the Sonata 1.  It's an extremely musical cart.  I've actually  been tempted though to try out a moving coil, but I know that MC's in the price range I'd be looking at won't sound nearly as musical as the Sonata 1.  Was thinking maybe Dynavector 10x5.


----------



## ]eep

Not really something new exept that I bought a good spotlight zo I can see where I'm cueing. And I found a yellow transparent Cranberries album that made it look pretty stunning.


----------



## Skylab

Holy poop that is a cool pic!  I need to try that on my VPI. I have a blue vinyl of Porcupine Tree's Deadwing...


----------



## Eee Pee

That is a WAY cool photo!  Nicely done.
  Quote: 





sharkz said:


> Seriously, I am very jealous of that rig.


 
   
  Thanks man.  Grado, VPI, Soundsmith and the Signal Cables are in your neck of the woods.  DNA is out in Cali. Made in the USA!  
   
  Just finished swapping out the old Sonata for the new one.  And I'm on vacation for nine days!  Plans are to alphabetize,  clean and listen and catalog all the records.
   
  Woo hoo!


----------



## Skylab

Well, mine didn't come out as nicely as yours...but I still think its cool! Thanks for the inspiration.


----------



## Twinster

] eep" url="/t/549616/post-a-photograph-of-your-turntable/855#post_8812144 said:
			
		

> Not really something new exept that I bought a good spotlight zo I can see where I'm cueing. And I found a yellow transparent Cranberries album that made it look pretty stunning.




This is officially my wallpaper picture on my iPad. Just amazing shot. Thank you!


----------



## niten

That is one amazing picture that should be reposted in the picture thread if it hasn't already.
  Makes me itch to get into the turntable game against my better judgement.


----------



## ]eep

The trick is: 
bright spotlight
right angle so you obscure unnecessary distracting objects like the arm
don't be afraid to photograph at an angle to make the right composition 
use your zoom
play with the right color correction on your camera
focus on the right distance

This was only the second and last shot.


----------



## mteinum

My rega planar 3. 24V upgrade / TT PSU


----------



## jr41

Quote: 





mteinum said:


> My rega planar 3. 24V upgrade / TT PSU


 
   
  Another great shot. Very nice.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





mteinum said:


> My rega planar 3. 24V upgrade / TT PSU


 
  Very nice x2. The photo is showroom perfect.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Heads up to anyone cosidering a Rega right now. They're doing Union Jack painted models of the P1, P3, and P6 for their anniversary.


----------



## Eee Pee

Everyone needs one of these:
   

   
   
   
  And it wouldn't hurt to have one of these either:
   

   
  Musical is right!
   
  The cleaner is amazing!  Just had to learn it, and get it down pat, and and bam, most of my stuff is as quiet as can get.  Awesome.


----------



## Skylab

No doubt...the importance of wet-vacuum cleaning your records cannot be overstated.


----------



## Eee Pee

I'm surprised what shows up on brand new discs.  Really surprised.  They need a good cleaning.
   
  I've now entered a new world of keeping my records clean.  And I thought I was bad before...


----------



## grokit

Next up: magnetism and static :veryevil:


----------



## Eee Pee

Hah!  Static is an issue.  Funny.
   
  My fleece pants might have something to do with it, but I like em so much!


----------



## Hi-Five

I do love my Milty!


----------



## ]eep

> fleece pants



Not cool dude, not cool. Get out of the house much? :rolleyes:

I think non-natural materials on the the floor and your shoes/socks are more of an issue, so is dry air. When it's a cold dry winter you can make miniature lightning-bolts near the xerox machine or the door-knob (remember the movie office space?).

And Permostat is the solution. It costs about $1 per album but its worth it.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





]eep said:


> Not cool dude, not cool. Get out of the house much?


 
  Actually, I'm on vacation this week.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  It's 67 degrees and 60 percent humidity in here, not bad.  
   
  Around album 32 I noted that things are sounding really good now.  I've read the Grado takes a little while to open up.  I think it did.
   
  Prepared to fire up Mastodon's Blood Mountain!


----------



## Skylab

eee pee said:


> .
> 
> Prepared to fire up Mastodon's Blood Mountain!




GREAT record!!!!!


----------



## MorbidToaster

So I've been in and out of this thread with no pictures, but I swear they're coming. I wanted to know what you guys think of this (pretty) sure thing. 
   
  VPI Scout w/ JWM9 Tonearm + Dynavector 20 (not sure on high or low) for 1k even.
   
  Vouched for by my 'audio guy' who I can trust (he just dropped me out of a deal recently because he found out the table was defective). 
   
  Win?
   
  EDIT: He claims it's...6 years old or so.


----------



## Skylab

BIG win. I have a Dynavector 20x on my Denon DP-59L right now - very nice pickup. And I also love my ScoutMaster.


----------



## Eee Pee

I'd call that a BIG win also.  Though!!! if he's saying the Dynavector is also 6 years old, expect it to be done.  That's a consideration to take in my opinion.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Even without a cart the Scout in good shape seems like a good deal to me. I'll have a look at the cart when it gets here (apparently it will be here within the hour) and ask my dealer about how many hours it has (though he may not know).
   
  Quote: 





eee pee said:


> I'd call that a BIG win also.  Though!!! if he's saying the Dynavector is also 6 years old, expect it to be done.  That's a consideration to take in my opinion.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Even without a cart the Scout in good shape seems like a good deal to me.
> 
> ... ask my dealer about how many hours it has (though he may not know).


 
  I agree, a pretty good deal!
   
  No way will he know the hours.  Not unless he logged every one one of them himself, right?  Guy who traded it in very well could have lied by hundreds of hours to get a better deal.  Just sayin'...
   
  Nonetheless, I agree, just the Scout table and any cart to get up and running is worth a grand in my book.


----------



## Eee Pee

While I'm thinking about it...  Get a new belt for it right off the bat if you get it.  Take the platter off and check the shaft for wear and lube.  Check the dampening fluid in the tonearm; lift the armwand up and see if the cup has any fluid in it.  You'll see the pointy bit, and a surrounding cup, or well, where there should be a thick fluid.  Careful not to drip any off the armwand when you do.


----------



## MorbidToaster

So I've got some great news and some (stupid) bad news. 
   
  Great news. Here it is.
   

   
  Looked at the original shipping receipt...2 years old. Good news. Came with Nordost phono cables. Good news. My guy check all the fluids and set it all up. Good news. 
   
  Bad news...? I don't have a damn phono stage right now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I thought my guy was bringing one but the cart is the low output VPI 20X (1mv) and the only stage I could use as a loaner just didn't push enough gain. 
   
  It'll be next week before I can get one. But at least it's here.
   
  EDIT: Guy replaced this with a Nottingham 294 with a Shelter mkII (jealous). Sounds like it probably has reasonably low hours because the guy's job was really hectic. Works for me. 
   
  Quote: 





eee pee said:


> While I'm thinking about it...  Get a new belt for it right off the bat if you get it.  Take the platter off and check the shaft for wear and lube.  Check the dampening fluid in the tonearm; lift the armwand up and see if the cup has any fluid in it.  You'll see the pointy bit, and a surrounding cup, or well, where there should be a thick fluid.  Careful not to drip any off the armwand when you do.


----------



## SemiAudiophile

^Nice find dude. Dynavector 20x is a nice cart.


----------



## ]eep

that looks like a really good deal @60% off the price after 2y. I looked it up, the Scout including the DV20x costs $2300 and the cable looks like Nordost Heimdal @ $600. That's a pretty sweet deal!  The cable does make a difference, especially om low output MC carts. So now you have a very good and well balanced TT in one go for 1k. A year ago this was pretty much my dream TT (not that I'm doing bad, I paid double just for a cart!).

The good part about the bad part is that you can choose anything you like. If you don't have a lot of money left and would consider a tube phono stage may I recommend the Yaqin MS12B?Review on TNT. It costs $280 on Ebay and has just a bit more gain than a normal MM stage. You should just be fine with the 1.0mV. It is a preamp with 2 inputs; cd on the back and MM (RIAA) on the front and 2 outputs: 0.25V and 0.7V. It has a complement of 4 tubes: 2 12AX7 and 2 12AU7. A friend of mine has it and is really pleased with it. It's a lot better than the other budget gear from (fi) Pro-ject (which is pretty good for the money). It will be a lot better than any budget MC stage for sure.

I just bought a MS22B ($180)and I am pretty pleased with it. It won't do for you (to low output) but I've tried it with a stepup tranny and it does pretty well. I'm going to modify it later (this week?). 

Just chuck the Chinese tubes (Shuguang 12AX7 sound bad) and put in some NOS ECC83 (or some nice new 12AX7) and you're off. You can even modify it later even further if you have some soldering skills (always look at the coupling caps!). I just looked it up and there a a lot of mods around on the internet on audiokarma and DIYaudio. 

And my Jolida JD9 gets a good recommendation too but it's a bit more expensive ($450) and needs a few mods to fully bloom (but then it blows away the competition up to more than double to quadruple the price).


----------



## MorbidToaster

] eep" url="/t/549616/post-a-photograph-of-your-turntable/885#post_8846657 said:
			
		

> that looks like a really good deal @60% off the price after 2y. I looked it up, the Scout including the DV20x costs $2300 and the cable looks like Nordost Heimdal @ $600. That's a pretty sweet deal!  The cable does make a difference, especially om low output MC carts. So now you have a very good and well balanced TT in one go for 1k. A year ago this was pretty much my dream TT (not that I'm doing bad, I paid double just for a cart!).
> The good part about the bad part is that you can choose anything you like. If you don't have a lot of money left and would consider a tube phono stage may I recommend the Yaqin MS12B? It costs $280 on Ebay and has just a bit more gain than a normal MM stage. You should just be fine with the 1.0mV. It is a preamp with 2 inputs; cd on the back and MM (RIAA) on the front and 2 outputs: 0.25V and 0.7V. It has a complement of 4 tubes: 2 12AX7 and 2 12AU7. A friend of mine has it and is really pleased with it. It's a lot better than the other budget gear from (fi) Pro-ject (which is pretty good for the money). It will be a lot better than any budget MC stage for sure.
> I just bought a MS22B ($180)and I am pretty pleased with it. It won't do for you (to low output) but I've tried it with a stepup tranny and it does pretty well. I'm going to modify it later (this week?).
> Just chuck the Chinese tubes (Shuguang 12AX7 sound bad) and put in some NOS ECC83 (or some nice new 12AX7) and you're off. You can even modify it later even further if you have some soldering skills (always look at the coupling caps!).
> And my Jolida JD9 gets a good recommendation too but it's a bit more expensive ($450) and needs a few mods to fully bloom (but then it blows away the competition up to more than double to quadruple the price).




I'd been looking at the JD9 for awhile since I cut my budget from 5k for my vinyl rig. I'll consider the tube stage as well. I'm also looking at the Vincent PHO8 and Clear Nano. 

I've heard really good things about the Vincent offering and an outboard PSU at 400 bucks is impressive if it performs. I generally just trust Clear stuff. Both should have plenty of gain for the 1mv 20X.

Edit: That Yaqin hits 65 on MC though. Nice.


----------



## ]eep

I'm just now looking into mods for the Yaqin and I see that there are a lot of ppl who have taken the plunge. Lots of schemes and mods. And as I would expect; the disadvantage mentioned on TNT about lack of soundstage on the preamp is mainly due to the less than impressive caps inside. If you are willing to mod the MS12B: go for it! I will help you if you need. It looks the MS12B and 22B are pretty similar and I'm whipping my soldering iron out now for the 22B.

Pleasant surprise when I bought the new Dead Can Dance album in the local store.... no mention anywhere about a special edition, but it is! 2x180gr clear vinyl. Looks awesome (again). This time I made a 1080x1920 version.


----------



## Eee Pee

Another great photo ]eep!  
   
   
  Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Great news. Here it is.


 
  Alright alright alright.[/guy from Dazed and Confused movie]
   
  Whilst staring at the picture for a bit I noticed the tonearm wire/anti-skate twist wire looks a bit goofy?  That needs a good straightening.  Unplug it and untwist it and massage it and twist it back up and repeat a couple times then of course you'll need to figure out where it's somewhat effective again.
   
  Good deal MT, you should be happy.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I was also surprised when I got it. How do you like the actual album? I really enjoyed it.
   
  EDIT: New wallpaper.
  Quote: 





]eep said:


> Pleasant surprise when I bought the new Dead Can Dance album in the local store.... no mention anywhere about a special edition, but it is! 2x180gr clear vinyl. Looks awesome (again). This time I made a 1080x1920 version


----------



## ]eep

How can I not like it.? Ive been a fan since 1987. After such a long wait Anastasia is a must have. BTW anastasia means resurrection in greek in case you didn't know. And it is. 
When I first heard it as FLAC with HP on I wasn't so sure about the lyrics... But when I put on the LP ... bliss.  It feels like a warm bath with a glass of champagne and a beautiful companion (I admit I have a certain person in mind that I'm not divulging here).


----------



## Clayton SF

I really love the look and sound of the Eddie Current Transcription Amp (phono stage).


----------



## Eee Pee

I love that CD player (can I say that in here?). 
   
  You need to make a fake tonearm and cart for it!  Hah!


----------



## sharkz

What player is that?


----------



## Eee Pee

Sorry I got it wrong, and I knew it.  It's a transport.  47 Labs.
   
  http://www.sakurasystems.com/products/shigacd.html


----------



## ]eep

Very nice gear. Nice FU29 tube amp, nice Shigaraki drive + DAC. But dude, you need to spend a little less on audio and more on furniture. :rolleyes: Life's not only about choices but also balance.


----------



## MorbidToaster

] eep" url="/t/549616/post-a-photograph-of-your-turntable/900#post_8855501 said:
			
		

> Very nice gear. Nice FU29 tube amp, nice Shigaraki drive + DAC. But dude, you need to spend a little less on audio and more on furniture. :rolleyes: Life's not only about choices but also balance.




I'm fine with owning Ikea stuff til the day I die with the exception of a few pieces (like my chair). If it looks even remotely decent and functions as the furniture should, it's fine.


----------



## anetode

morbidtoaster said:


> I'm fine with owning Ikea stuff til the day I die




This is one of the most profoundly sad statements I've ever read on head-fi.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Eh. I guess I should have put 'If I have to.'
   
  My point was that until my rig is 'done' I'm fine with owning cheap stuff. I don't think it's about balanced, it's about acceptance. Accepting the fact that you might not need that next awesome CD player and buying some nicer furniture instead. 
   
  For me, I own almost all Ikea furniture. Why? Because I still want a better digital source, a TH900 with a decent amp for it, and a better vinyl rig. Not to mention a speaker rig, too.
   
  All of that will come before the Ikea stuff goes anywhere.
   
  Quote: 





anetode said:


> This is one of the most profoundly sad statements I've ever read on head-fi.


----------



## Clayton SF

At least you have furniture.


----------



## anetode

morbidtoaster said:


> Eh. I guess I should have put 'If I have to.'
> 
> My point was that until my rig is 'done' I'm fine with owning cheap stuff. I don't think it's about balanced, it's about acceptance. Accepting the fact that you might not need that next awesome CD player and buying some nicer furniture instead.
> 
> ...




Being that I once was a college student with roommates I'm all too familiar with Ikea. I came up with a simple rule: never buy any Ikea item worth more than 200$. Oddly the cheapest Ikea stuff is dependable, the couches and all the more expensive crap fall apart within a year.

Ikea is a perfidious convenience and a lifetime of it would be a cruel sentence.


----------



## analogsurviver

This thread I found some nice refuge from all the cans - which I normally use to set up turntables correctly with.
   
  Here the pic of prototype first seen at the  Hi Fi Multimedia Show held in Ljubljana, Slovenia - last year, mid October 2011 :
   
http://www.audiodiy.org/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=601
   
  It is a gravity linear arm made from a single piece of ( well seasoned ) wood, designed by Bruno Puhar. Without counterweight and propelled by the stylus alone, no servo drive of any kind. At this show, a Denon DL-103 ( some middle model, not basic 103 but not TOTL ) was fitted - and even with such a moderate cart, produced an astonishingly rock solid soundstage, with dynamics much more associated and comparable with something like Kuzma 4point pivoting arm than with the generally slightly softened slam of most other, particularly air bearing linear arm designs. My Eminent Technology ET2 air bearing linear tracking arm certainly can not compete in sheer command of the sound this arm/turntable produced.  Demonstrated on - irony of ironies - Eminent Rechnology LFT-8b planar/ribbon speakers (!). Listening to the debut recording by Anne Sophie von Otter from 80s on Proprius LP was truly a revelation - from an outstanding LP I thought I knew intimately.


----------



## ]eep

Oddly, the Ikea 'Lack' table was considered the best stand for the Linn Sondek LP12 for years. The 'Expedit' is IMHO the best cabinet for storing LP's.
There is nothing wrong with Ikea stuff. I've seen a lot worse that falls apart the first time you move it. Sure, there's better but they make furniture that is very practical and even looks nice. I as a carpenter find the construction well thought out and economical. The only thing I find that isn't great is the cheaper lacquer and melamine finishes. Massive wood is better, and preferably not pine but a nice real veneer is fine. I own lots of Ikea stuff and am perfectly happy with it and it looks very presentable.

I am not saying it has to be expensive but when you get some female visitors (or ppl with some kind of sense of aesthetics) ClaytonSF's interior isn't going to win hearts. 

---

Analogsurvivor, how does it apply trackingforce? 
While the vertical position has some advantages for the arm and its effective mass it has the same adverse disadvantages to the platterbearing. You can not make a solid stable platter this way. Just like washings machines: the ones with a vertical bearing last much, much longer.


----------



## brunk

Quote: 





]eep said:


> that looks like a really good deal @60% off the price after 2y. I looked it up, the Scout including the DV20x costs $2300 and the cable looks like Nordost Heimdal @ $600. That's a pretty sweet deal!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I also own the Yaqin MS12b and it is a very nice piece of kit. I love the fact it has several options to play around with. Awesome deal by the way


----------



## MorbidToaster

I ended up getting the Vincent PHO-8 Phono Stage. I'd had my eye on it for awhile and I've read some really positive things about it.
   
  http://www.needledoctor.com/Vincent-Audio-PHO-8-Phono-Preamp


----------



## brunk

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I ended up getting the Vincent PHO-8 Phono Stage. I'd had my eye on it for awhile and I've read some really positive things about it.
> 
> http://www.needledoctor.com/Vincent-Audio-PHO-8-Phono-Preamp


 

 Does that price include the power supply? Do you have experience with other phono pres to give us a perspective of the quality by chance?


----------



## MorbidToaster

Yes it does, and no I haven't, unfortunately. I bought it because it should be enough gain for my 1mv cart, and getting an outboard PSU is pretty unique at this price. 
   
  Really looking forward to getting it in.
   
  Quote: 





brunk said:


> Does that price include the power supply? Do you have experience with other phono pres to give us a perspective of the quality by chance?


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





]eep said:


> Oddly, the Ikea 'Lack' table was considered the best stand for the Linn Sondek LP12 for years. The 'Expedit' is IMHO the best cabinet for storing LP's.
> There is nothing wrong with Ikea stuff. I've seen a lot worse that falls apart the first time you move it. Sure, there's better but they make furniture that is very practical and even looks nice. I as a carpenter find the construction well thought out and economical. The only thing I find that isn't great is the cheaper lacquer and melamine finishes. Massive wood is better, and preferably not pine but a nice real veneer is fine. I own lots of Ikea stuff and am perfectly happy with it and it looks very presentable.
> I am not saying it has to be expensive but when you get some female visitors (or ppl with some kind of sense of aesthetics) ClaytonSF's interior isn't going to win hearts.
> 
> ...


 
  Everything is done by gravity, tracking force included. Cartridge mass/precise adjustment will have to be implemented with some movable mass in production units, prototype was tailor made for the cartridge used to allow for "one piece" construction ( fine tracking force adjustment was possible by tilting the whole turntable slightly from dead vertical position through the adjustment of the threaded spikes in the base) .
   
  VTA adjustment is carried out the usual way - but at the main bearing, not at the arm side, in order to preserve rigidity of the arm assembly.
   
  The main advantage over any other known solution is complete lack of any free play in the arm bearing(s) - and it is audible from the very first moment by the display of control hitherto unheard of in linear tracking arms. Precise soundstaging across the entire disc ( hallmark of linear arms ) and dynamics/bass/slam
  ( hallmark of premium pivoted arms ) are united in a single design for the first time. The aesthetic beauty of the arm design will have to be ruined somewhat by the necessity to have some kind of a dust cover protecting rail on which arm bearing(s) travel - prototype arm did stuck from time to time durnig demo, producing skipping - it occured at random position(s), not always at the same spot, indicating some dust particle(s) problem(s).
   
  I agree you can not make a solid stable platter this way - at least not with conventional bearing . The same applies for longievity.  There IS a way around it - the use of the four or 5 point main platter bearing, similar to the main bearing in the Well Tempered turntables.  This way, even platter bearing can be made to have absolute zero play in either plane, further increasing performance. I feel that even if it means replacing main platter  bearing once in a while, it is much more than justified by the sheer sound quality alone. I prefer something with superb performance that needs taking care of from time to time over  something that is maintenance/replacement free and does its action  forever - but poorly.
   
  There are several other possibilities for improvements I will contact the designer for. Potential here is higher than in any other design I have heard or read of , regardless of price.
   
  Since you, *Jeep*,  were the n-th person to mispell my head-fi ID, which is_ *analogsurviver, *_with an *E  *instead of what (o) would normally be correct in English , I guess I will have to include a short  "disclaimer" following each post from now on - that *E *most definitely is there for a reason and it is NOT a mistake.


----------



## ]eep

> Since you, Jeep, were the n-th person to mispell my head-fi ID, which is analogsurviver, with an E instead of what (o) would normally be correct in English , I guess I will have to include a short "disclaimer" following each post from now on - that E most definitely is there for a reason and it is NOT a mistake.



Oops! Normally I copy paste names but it looked so simple that I just typed it in. 

The funny thing is, you misspelled my name too, which is also a common mistake. But I'll just let it go this time. 

It's ]eep, not Jeep. I'm not a car. :eek:

But, ontopic; It looks pretty innovative. I see the advantage of the arm. It's linear tracking with mass coupling. On a air floating LTA you are literally floating on air with nothing to hold on to. My concern is that it isn't very practical.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





]eep said:


> Oops! Normally I copy paste names but it looked so simple that I just typed it in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  O-oops back - did not want you to become a car ... ; guess I will have to figure at last out how to get that sign on screen !
   
  Back to topic - it is not the most practical way to play back vinyl in its form in the photo, but this can be made more user friendly. It takes about 10 seconds of audio and any concerns regarding practicality evaporate - if there is a better way to play vinyl, I have yet to hear it. We have been doing far stranger things to get as good music as possible from our treasured records.
   
  I plan to visit the designer in near future - no idea what he was brewing in about a year since that photo was taken. I will post an update ASAP.


----------



## niten




----------



## dminches

Here are some shots of my "new" Denon DP-60L which now completes my little rig:
   
   

   
  Denon DP-60L with Clearaudio Maestro cartridge
   
   

   
  Spinning some Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers
   
   

   
   

   
  Cary SLI-80 F1 Signature integrated amp driving 2 Nola Boxers.  Phono pre is an AES PH1-DJH.


----------



## Skylab

NOW we're talkin'!!!!!  Beautiful TT and rig, Dave.


----------



## niten

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Here are some shots of my "new" Denon DP-60L which now completes my little rig:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Do you know what type of wood that is on the Denon?
  It looks beautiful.


----------



## dminches

My guess is that it is a redwood veneer. 

Rob?


----------



## MorbidToaster

Finally up and running. Phono stage came in today!
   
  Probably the best build quality I've seen from a $400 product. Need to let it all run in...and get something to clean these bad boys with.


----------



## Skylab

dminches said:


> My guess is that it is a redwood veneer.
> Rob?




Rosewood I believe.


----------



## Eee Pee

Lifter up and down button!?  Nice!  I like the little green light telling you it's down.  Hah!
   
  Nice MT!
   
  Inspired to fire up the vinyl rig.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Rosewood I believe.


 
   
  I don't know why I said redwood.  Definitely rosewood.


----------



## brunk

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Finally up and running. Phono stage came in today!
> 
> Probably the best build quality I've seen from a $400 product. Need to let it all run in...*and get something to clean these bad boys with.*


 
  Yes, definitely get the proper *TOOL*   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You'll also need some conditioned AC/DC and be sure to close The Doors when you rock out


----------



## ]eep

1 more project finished: I've installed the second arm. I made a base from wenge wood. 


Cartridge is a London Decca Blue. Arm Consonance T988 dampened unipivot.


----------



## RokBoks

nice lookin tables and i'm even happier to say i'm IN

   
  Philips AF-677
  replaced the needle and now its crystal clear  only one question when it gets to the last songs (on the inside of the record) it begins to skip about a minute in (every record); is this a problem with cartridge alignment?


----------



## calipilot227

Try increasing the tracking force or reducing the antiskate


----------



## dwinnert

My Dual 1019....not shown is the original plexi cover.


----------



## Eee Pee

Rega's Union Jack RP1


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

So I pounced on Elusive Disc's 15% sale and grabbed a Clearaudio Concept with MC cartridge, as well as a Clearaudio Basic Plus phono stage. I like my Rega P5 setup quite a bit, but I feel like I need to experience other tables to see what's out there. Will post photos when the new deck arrives!


----------



## Eee Pee

Nice!  Think the Basic Plus will best the RSA?  
   
  You know you want that Accu battery power supply.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

eee pee said:


> Nice!  Think the Basic Plus will best the RSA?
> 
> You know you want that Accu battery power supply.




I am wondering the same thing. You see a lot of the same platitudes rolled out for both units -- punches above its class, flexible enough to work with any cartridge, etc. -- but only time will tell. I grabbed the Basic Plus (demo unit, around $700 after discount) because I so love the idea of synergy. I'm hopeful.

And yes, the battery power supply did catch my eye... but after a new deck and pre plus a big stack of new vinyl (including the spendy new Who LP box), I need to get a hold of myself.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





olias of sunhillow said:


> I need to get a hold of myself.


 
  Don't be silly.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

eee pee said:


> Don't be silly.




Yeah, I kind of chuckled while typing that.


----------



## Silent One

My 1977 Sony PS-X5 --


----------



## calipilot227

Needs one more brass foot


----------



## Silent One

Who you calling _crippled?! _Actually, when funds permit, I'll fabricate four 3" square Maple blocks, then screw in four brass footers (3x3") underneath.


----------



## ]eep

olias of sunhillow said:


> I need to get a hold of myself.





eee pee said:


> Don't be silly.





olias of sunhillow said:


> Yeah, I kind of chuckled while typing that.



No really? Don't we all? 
BTW I didn't mean get a hold of you. 
I just ordered an extra album to finish up a backorder... kinda like a chainsmoking nicotine addict.


----------



## MorbidToaster

olias of sunhillow said:


> I am wondering the same thing. You see a lot of the same platitudes rolled out for both units -- punches above its class, flexible enough to work with any cartridge, etc. -- but only time will tell. I grabbed the Basic Plus (demo unit, around $700 after discount) because I so love the idea of synergy. I'm hopeful.
> And yes, the battery power supply did catch my eye... but after a new deck and pre plus a big stack of new vinyl (including the spendy new Who LP box), I need to get a hold of myself.




You son of a bitch. I want that Who box so bad...


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> You son of a bitch. I want that Who box so bad...


 





   
  I went back and forth on it quite a bit, but found the PopMarket deal for $299 and couldn't resist.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





]eep said:


> No really? Don't we all?
> BTW I didn't mean get a hold of you.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  You nailed it - kinda like a vinyl junkie addict explained to the masses with a term anyone can understand.


----------



## Randall DZM

Just sprung for a Pro-ject Debut Carbon TT, Vincent Audio Pho-8 phonostage, Furman power conditioner and some other goodies. The preamp and power conditioner are coming in today. Loving the Pro-ject TT. Impressions of the Pho-8 will be coming soon! Pics as well


----------



## MorbidToaster

randall dzm said:


> Just sprung for a Pro-ject Debut Carbon TT, Vincent Audio Pho-8 phonostage, Furman power conditioner and some other goodies. The preamp and power conditioner are coming in today. Loving the Pro-ject TT. Impressions of the Pho-8 will be coming soon! Pics as well




Good choice on the PHO 8. Really enjoy mine. Remember to avoid stacking the boxes or honestly don't even put them next to each other. The PSU close to the output will give you lots of hum.

I put mine on opposite sides of my TT.


----------



## Randall DZM

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Good choice on the PHO 8. Really enjoy mine. Remember to avoid stacking the boxes or honestly don't even put them next to each other. The PSU close to the output will give you lots of hum.
> I put mine on opposite sides of my TT.


 
  Hmm I was planning on that, thanks for the advice though  The cables are a decent length and should reach no problem yeah?


----------



## MorbidToaster

randall dzm said:


> Hmm I was planning on that, thanks for the advice though  The cables are a decent length and should reach no problem yeah?




Yeah. Your outputs can go next to your phono cables and the 5 pin power cable it comes with is plenty long for the PSU to go anywhere far enough away.


----------



## Eee Pee

Found this is my stack.
   
  Ha!


----------



## ]eep

olias of sunhillow said:


> I went back and forth on it quite a bit, but found the PopMarket deal for $299 and couldn't resist.



OMG
Thats a lot of money for music that old. But then again, I own the album in your avatar /name on LP and cherish it for years and years. :rolleyes:
It seems I'm not his only fan left (h#ll no).


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

As promised, here are some snaps of my new Clearaudio Concept table. Enjoy!
   
  First, the table spinning my beloved Harvest (German) copy of _Book of Taliesyn_:
   

   
   
  Second, a closeup of the tonearm mount. The magnetic "floating" style tonearm creeped me out at first. OK, it still creeps me out a little.
   

   
   
  Finally, the Concept atop my Solidsteel rack.
   

   
   
  From top to bottom: Clearaudio Concept, Schiit Gungnir, Bryston BHA-1 (with Q > LCD-3 attached), Liquid Fire, Oppo BDP-95.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





]eep said:


> OMG
> Thats a lot of money for music that old. But then again, I own the album in your avatar /name on LP and cherish it for years and years.
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Agreed, it's pretty ridiculous. That said, it's going rate (or better) for 180g vinyl these days, and I've read that the pressings in the Who box are quite good. We shall see.
   
  As for _Olias_... a desert island disc for me, and truly a piece of music that must be enjoyed on LP, if for no other reason than the story not making sense without the densely packed gatefold in front of you for reference. Personally, I'm enjoying both Jon's recent work and latter-day Yes.


----------



## MorbidToaster

There is something about the Concept's looks that bug me. I can't seem to put my finger on it. It's quite a nice TT though sound wise. Good choice. 
   
  I went through quite a few LPs today myself.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> There is something about the Concept's looks that bug me. I can't seem to put my finger on it. It's quite a nice TT though sound wise. Good choice.
> 
> I went through quite a few LPs today myself.


 
   
  That was something I kind of agonized over, but decided to give the Concept a whirl. It's certainly night and day from my cherry P5 with the "picture frame" trim.
   
  On the other hand, with that silver finish, I think it'll look great above my Schiit stack when the Mjolnir arrives on Thursday.


----------



## MorbidToaster

You're going a bit amp crazy aren't you? 
   
  Not that that's a bad thing I suppose. 
   
  I think you'll come to the same conclusion I did and like the BHA-1 over Mjolnir (even though THOR'S HAMMER is obviously the best name ever). 
   
  Still hoping to end up with a Notthingham system someday, but that's a ways off. My Scout will do just fine for now.
   
  Quote: 





olias of sunhillow said:


> That was something I kind of agonized over, but decided to give the Concept a whirl. It's certainly night and day from my cherry P5 with the "picture frame" trim.
> 
> On the other hand, with that silver finish, I think it'll look great above my Schiit stack when the Mjolnir arrives on Thursday.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> You're going a bit amp crazy aren't you?
> 
> Not that that's a bad thing I suppose.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yes, though hopefully it's a temporary insanity. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I'm quite happy with the BHA-1, and hope it wins out because of the added flexibility it brings over the Mjolnir, but... well, you know, I just HAVE TO KNOW which I like better.


----------



## MorbidToaster

We did the comparison in Dallas a couple of months ago and almost everyone picked the BHA-1. It was just cleaner and clearer. We had it paired with the same DAC, too. 
   
  Look forward to hearing what you think.
   
  Quote: 





olias of sunhillow said:


> Yes, though hopefully it's a temporary insanity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> We did the comparison in Dallas a couple of months ago and almost everyone picked the BHA-1. It was just cleaner and clearer. We had it paired with the same DAC, too.
> 
> Look forward to hearing what you think.


 
   
  I believe I've seen the (very helpful) write-up from that comparison -- thanks for that! Final score was 5-2 with some price-related abstentions, correct?
   
  Back to the new deck. I don't really want to comment on SQ yet with table that's hours old, but I'm spinning Steeleye Span's _Parcel of Rogues_ at the moment -- an album I know well -- and I'm enjoying it more than ever. I am optimistic.


----------



## MorbidToaster

olias of sunhillow said:


> I believe I've seen the (very helpful) write-up from that comparison -- thanks for that! Final score was 5-2 with some price-related abstentions, correct?
> 
> Back to the new deck. I don't really want to comment on SQ yet with table that's hours old, but I'm spinning Steeleye Span's _Parcel of Rogues_ at the moment -- an album I know well -- and I'm enjoying it more than ever. I am optimistic.




That sounds about right. 

Glad to hear you're liking it. I listened to 'They Only Come Out at Night' by Edgar Winter tonight on vinyl and then on the Cantana and it was really no contest. LP took it all the way.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> That sounds about right.
> Glad to hear you're liking it. I listened to 'They Only Come Out at Night' by Edgar Winter tonight on vinyl and then on the Cantana and it was really no contest. LP took it all the way.


 
   
  Great record! I work with a guy that used to play drums with Johnny, Edgar and Rick back in the day. As he describes it, it's amazing that they were able to record at all with the quantity of whiskey they drank...


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Sorry, double post.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Not the prettiest picture ever, but the vinyl is gorgeous. It's also dirty hipster music.


----------



## Greyson




----------



## MorbidToaster

I almost listened to my Dive LP tonight. Getting played tomorrow. Good choice.


----------



## fleasbaby

Quote: 





greyson said:


>


 
   
  Nice to see another Technics too...was starting to wonder if I was the only one out here with one .


----------



## ]eep

> There is something about the Concept's looks that bug me.



It's too small. That's the only thing. Its a smaller version of the Clearaudio Ovation. Or the Feickert if you wish. Form reduced to it's essence. It's pure and simple. No wasted real estate. We don't do that in Europe. 

If you are use to driving american cars you would say the same about a Porsche 911.

I love the arm but I'm not so sure about the platter. It's MDF right? Maybe there is a acrylic replacement obtainable somewhere.


----------



## Randall DZM

Low res camera photo of my setup is the best I can do atm
 From top to bottom:
 Pro-ject Debut Carbon
 Vincent Pho-8 & Panasonic Stereo system SA-PM29
  M-8x2 Merit X Series Power Conditioner

 Hopefully the stereo system and speakers will be replaced with a cd player and some decent bookshelf speakers soon. Also looking getting a sturdier audio rack.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





]eep said:


> It's too small. That's the only thing. Its a smaller version of the Clearaudio Ovation. Or the Feickert if you wish. Form reduced to it's essence. It's pure and simple. No wasted real estate. We don't do that in Europe.
> If you are use to driving american cars you would say the same about a Porsche 911.
> I love the arm but I'm not so sure about the platter. It's MDF right? Maybe there is a acrylic replacement obtainable somewhere.


 
   
  I expected it to be too small, but it's actually exactly the same footprint as my Rega. There will be less than a half inch of clearance on all sides for the dustcover (when I order it) on my rack.
   
  The platter is Delrin.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Not the prettiest picture ever, but the vinyl is gorgeous. It's also dirty hipster music.


 
   
  The vinyl is gorgeous indeed! I'm just starting to buy the occasional replacement LP or something I do not have. Would like more offerings of coloured vinyl and picture disc vinyl.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Lately if it's available on vinyl I buy it that way. Especially with Electronic music because it usually comes with a 320 DL as well. Or even a CD (Ala Passion Pit or Bob Dylan).
   
  Another thing I've noticed is that quite a bit of modern / new release stuff is pressed on nifty vinyl simply because it's more a niche thing and they generally don't do massive pressings. It allows for more 'fun' with the packages. Hell, Lorn put out a friggin' Reel to Reel tape version of his new album earlier this year.
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> The vinyl is gorgeous indeed! I'm just starting to buy the occasional replacement LP or something I do not have. Would like more offerings of coloured vinyl and picture disc vinyl.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Lately if it's available on vinyl I buy it that way. Especially with Electronic music because it usually comes with a 320 DL as well. Or even a CD (Ala Passion Pit or Bob Dylan).
> 
> Another thing I've noticed is that quite a bit of modern / new release stuff is pressed on nifty vinyl simply because it's more a niche thing and they generally don't do massive pressings. It allows for more 'fun' with the packages. Hell, Lorn put out a friggin' Reel to Reel tape version of his new album earlier this year.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Is coloured vinyl typically 160g-180g and not 130g-140g?


----------



## MorbidToaster

Usually 180. It seems to be the standard now a days for new music. 
   
  Especially when they put the care into making it a color or picture disc.
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> Is coloured vinyl typically 160g-180g and not 130g-140g?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Usually 180. It seems to be the standard now a days for new music.
> 
> Especially when they put the care into making it a color or picture disc.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Some moons back, I inherited the LP "Goin' Bananas" - Side Effect (Fantasy 1977) and the vinyl is yellow. But, when I received it, I noticed a bite taken out of it
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, so it's not playable._ What's with dog, cats and audio/music stuff?!_ Will shop later tonight for my very first coloured/pictured vinyl LP...


----------



## MorbidToaster

My first picture disc was actually bought as an accident. The description and art didn't match what I got from Amazon...but I got something so much better. 
   
  Touch By the Crimson King by Demons & Wizards. Glorious 180 picture disc. Lateralus was the second.
  
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> Some moons back, I inherited the LP "Goin' Bananas" - Side Effect (Fantasy 1977) and the vinyl is yellow. But, when I received it, I noticed a bite taken out of it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Eee Pee

Long time ago I read colored discs aren't as quiet as the usual black discs, can't remember why.  All my stuff is hit or miss regarding surface noise levels, so I'm thinking it doesn't matter too much anymore, if it even ever did.
   
   
   
  Today Dave Brubeck died so I'm firing up the rig to play a few in his honor.  RIP, sir.
   
  Warm up with an original stereo version of Take Five because my original mono version is a bit beat, then do the single sided four album set on 45 rpm 180 gr released in 1995 on Classic.
   
  Cheers Dave Brubeck, thank you.


----------



## Silent One

Eee Pee, you know how to do it! I'm giving him a nod later tonight as well, but unable to do so in grand style.


----------



## calipilot227

Time to pull out my Columbia reissue of that album  If there's anyone who deserves a tribute, it's Brubeck.


----------



## calipilot227

oops, double post


----------



## palmfish

Brubeck (and Desmond) was a National Treasure. I dont have any of his works on vinyl, but will enjoy his performances on my Legends of Jazz with Ramsey Lewis DVD in my home theater later tonight.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





eee pee said:


>


 
   
  All right, which of the above is the oldest original or your favorite?
   
  I too thank Dave Brubeck. What a lovely journey it has been and will forever be.


----------



## manfred77

A few of the turntables I own, yeah, I guess you could say I am obsessive-compulsive, keep meaning to sell a few.... I have 3 or 4 out in the shop system. Can't pass up Thorens, Garrards, or Rek-O-kuts.
   
   

   
  Thomas


----------



## Silent One

Oh my. Your place would make for a great dinner destination - retreating from the dinner table to the listening room.


----------



## Skylab

manfred77 said:


> A few of the turntables I own, yeah, I guess you could say I am obsessive-compulsive, keep meaning to sell a few.... I have 3 or 4 out in the shop system. Can't pass up Thorens, Garrards, or Rek-O-kuts.
> 
> 
> Thomas




Nice!!! Beautiful tables. I also spy a Pioneer RT-707 reel to reel


----------



## Silent One

That low slung deck also caught my eye...fantastique!


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> All right, which of the above is the oldest original or your favorite?
> 
> I too thank Dave Brubeck. What a lovely journey it has been and will forever be.


 
  Top four are 1995 and my favorite.  Single side 45s are way cool, and they sound fantastic!  Clean, clear, dynamic.
   
  Left is original 1959 stereo copy, right is 1959 mono.  Both in bad shape, and I won't play the mono one but I will play the stereo version.
   
  Then the 1997 CD, and 1999 SACD, and the 1996 Time Further Out, the follow up to Time Out.  The SACD sounds very good.
   
  I'd save the SACD and 45s before I save my equipment to play them with.


----------



## Skylab

"New to me" Pioneer PL-530 with red oak veneer. 





I installed an Ortofon 2M Bronze and she sounds great!


----------



## dminches

Nice!!!


----------



## Skylab

Thanks David. I wanted one with a real wood veneer for the basement system, and the PL-550 I had down there was still wood-grain vinyl veneer... This looks much nicer. It's also "more different" from my PL-570.


----------



## dminches

What I like most about my Denon is the red wood base.  And the cuing mechanism.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





skylab said:


> "New to me" Pioneer PL-530 with red oak veneer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  You did it again, Skylab! Nice pick up.





   
  Who's spinning on that Casablanca label?


----------



## Skylab

silent one said:


> You did it again, Skylab! Nice pick up.
> 
> 
> Who's spinning on that Casablanca label?




Donna Summer


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Donna Summer


 
   
  A good choice for a good spin!


----------



## Greyson




----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





greyson said:


>


 
   
  Beautifully captured..._your moment in time._


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





greyson said:


>


 
  Great mood!


----------



## Skylab

Well, I think this sorta counts 



It certainly rocks!!!! Record cleaning in the extreme.


----------



## dminches

Saweet!


----------



## MorbidToaster

WOAH. Now that's fancy. I plan on getting the step down from that after my new analog rig comes together. 1400 is steep, but it'll be worth it.


----------



## anetode

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Well, I think this sorta counts
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Wow! That is a nice N64 in the background!


----------



## santiagozoo

Not my main headphones but they happend to be lying around.


----------



## anetode

Beautiful & serene - it's impressive to have an all-white room look warm and inviting instead of clinical. The Genelecs are a very good choice for bedroom speakers.


----------



## santiagozoo

I'm afraid it's my only room  but still..


----------



## calipilot227

santiagozoo said:


> I'm afraid it's my only room  but still..




Even more impressive


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





anetode said:


> Wow! That is a nice N64 in the background!


 
   
  It works perfectly too


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





santiagozoo said:


> Not my main headphones but they happend to be lying around.


 
   
  It all flows quite nicely. _Even kitty is cool..._


----------



## MorbidToaster

Another terrible shot of gorgeous vinyl. Came in today. Inverted lightning bolt. Great art came with it, too.


----------



## nelamvr6

Where's the "Post a photograph of your speakers" thread?


----------



## calipilot227

Dammit guys, you're making me want a VPI turntable now! Anyone compared one with a Thorens TD-145/160?


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Dammit guys, you're making me want a VPI turntable now! Anyone compared one with a Thorens TD-145/160?


 
   
   
  Hey, why fight it?  Now that The Traveler is available, just get a VPI!


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Dammit guys, you're making me want a VPI turntable now! Anyone compared one with a Thorens TD-145/160?


 
  Yes, I had a Thorens TD-145 purchased back in early 2003 when you could find em for $100.00 on Ebay. I really loved it. A big change from all the tables I have owned. Older Thorens like the TD-145 or less desired TD 160 had an acoustic resonance that they affected onto the music. They are very musical but lacking at times in detail just due to that warm resonance. They are totally forgiving when used with bad recordings or crappy stereo gear. They also had to my ears, a great way of making those thin 1980-1989 recording sound fuller than they were.
   
  The VPI maybe just due to the construction and design have very little of that color. They are cold and critical showing every ounce of detail in the recordings.Combined with warm headphones and amps they balance out well. The other result is a dead quiet background where a ton of detail has the potential of being noticed. I own a Scout which I picked up used with a cartridge for about $1200. You can get em way cheaper now though. A friend has a VPI Hot Rod where really the sky is the limit to what you can spend. You can hear the results too.
   
  I just went to the Thorens page and they are making some cool tables now. I have no experience with em though.


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Another terrible shot of gorgeous vinyl. Came in today. Inverted lightning bolt. Great art came with it, too.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> Yes, I had a Thorens TD-145 purchased back in early 2003 when you could find em for $100.00 on Ebay. I really loved it. A big change from all the tables I have owned. Older Thorens like the TD-145 or less desired TD 160 had an acoustic resonance that they affected onto the music. They are very musical but lacking at times in detail just due to that warm resonance. They are totally forgiving when used with bad recordings or crappy stereo gear. They also had to my ears, a great way of making those thin 1980-1989 recording sound fuller than they were.
> 
> The VPI maybe just due to the construction and design have very little of that color. They are cold and critical showing every ounce of detail in the recordings.Combined with warm headphones and amps they balance out well. The other result is a dead quiet background where a ton of detail has the potential of being noticed. I own a Scout which I picked up used with a cartridge for about $1200. You can get em way cheaper now though. A friend has a VPI Hot Rod where really the sky is the limit to what you can spend. You can hear the results too.
> 
> I just went to the Thorens page and they are making some cool tables now. I have no experience with em though.


 
   
  Wow, thanks! Very informative response.
   
  Aside from price, the main challenge will be the psychological barrier of going from a suspended TT to a non-suspended one. My TD-145 does poorly enough with footfalls (a wall shelf is in the works). It just sucks that I'm at the point where there are no more cheap tables that will bring a true upgrade (I'll have to spend $1,000+). Such is this hobby


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Wow, thanks! Very informative response.
> 
> Aside from price, the main challenge will be the psychological barrier of going from a suspended TT to a non-suspended one. My TD-145 does poorly enough with footfalls (a wall shelf is in the works). It just sucks that I'm at the point where there are no more cheap tables that will bring a true upgrade (I'll have to spend $1,000+). Such is this hobby


 
  That's the fun of the hobby. I purchased my VPI in downtown LA and drove gingerly home ( table in passenger sear) on the the freeway to O.C.. Little did I know I was suppose to take the turntable apart. The upgrades are what make all this such a thrill. I agree though that it's hard to upgrade from a TD-145. I actually miss mine as some thin records are so stale with the VPI. It's just showing you what it is. If a records suffers from that 80's sound you hear it.
   
   
  It's a_* HUGE*_ upgrade though. I promise. My humble VPI has way better stability in speed, better sound stage. super clear detail in comparison to the TD-145. Look around I bet you can find one used for little money?


----------



## calipilot227

The other option that I'm considering is the Pro-ject Debut Carbon with Speedbox upgrade, that way I could invest more into a cart (Ortofon 2M Bronze or Black). The Speedbox is said to solve the hum problem as well as improve the wow and flutter. The carbon fiber tonearm may be an improvement, or a step in the wrong direction. I'm heading to Sumiko today in Berkeley to demo one (because why not?).
   
  As much as I love my Thorens, I find I spend as much time tweaking it as I do actually listening to records. Gets frustrating when I know exactly how it's supposed to sound, but half the time something isn't quite right.


----------



## ]eep

> They are very musical but lacking at times in detail just due to that warm resonance. They are totally forgiving when used with bad recordings or crappy stereo gear. They also had to my ears, a great way of making those thin 1980-1989 recording sound fuller than they were.



Isn't that just saying it is not hifi? It's just like putting ketchup on everything. That's ok when you have poor quality meat, but when you have goumet meals it just makes everything come out the same and wasting all the quality and effort that's in there. 

I think it better to clean and maintain your records properly than have a 'forgiving' player.

BTW, I saw a documentary on Japanese TV (english subs) yesterday about Wajima lackerware. It made me appreciate my Koetsu Urushi Wajima even more. That lacker is not just a coat of paint! It's a proces of >100 steps with 20 coats that takes over a year.


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> The other option that I'm considering is the Pro-ject Debut Carbon with Speedbox upgrade, that way I could invest more into a cart (Ortofon 2M Bronze or Black). The Speedbox is said to solve the hum problem as well as improve the wow and flutter. The carbon fiber tonearm may be an improvement, or a step in the wrong direction. I'm heading to Sumiko today in Berkeley to demo one (because why not?).
> 
> As much as I love my Thorens, I find I spend as much time tweaking it as I do actually listening to records. Gets frustrating when I know exactly how it's supposed to sound, but half the time something isn't quite right.


 
  The guy I purchased my phono-pre had an Ortofon Black and loved it. He could not stop talking about the cart. I could tell he was very happy. The Thorens have such a great following. I'm sure you know about the Thorens Dept. web site where they mod them till the end. I'm sure there is somebody around here who knows about the Pro-jects. Enjoy!


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> The guy I purchased my phono-pre had an Ortofon Black and loved it. He could not stop talking about the cart. I could tell he was very happy. The Thorens have such a great following. I'm sure you know about the Thorens Dept. web site where they mod them till the end. I'm sure there is somebody around here who knows about the Pro-jects. Enjoy!


 
   
  Last non-photo post, I promise!
   
  The main problem with my TD-145 is the IsoTrack tonearm (MKII version), which limits the carts I can use. Not only to high-compliance carts, but it also eliminates the possibility of carts that thread screws from the top. Scratch the Ortofon 2M series and wood-body Grados off the list. Alignment is also especially difficult, since it is only possible to adjust overhang. I have a feeling my cart may be less than perfectly aligned, thus setting off my ever-present OCD.
   
  If the tonearm of the Debut Carbon is good enough, and the Speedbox keeps hum and wow and flutter to an acceptable level, that may be the route I take. It may be a downgrade in the eyes of some, but I consider the convenience upgrade to be a strong point. Hopefully it comes without a sound quality downgrade.


----------



## ]eep

You might take a look at these Pro-ject RPM 1.3 genie too.
It has a thick acrylic 33mm 2.8kg (6pnd) platter.
Same on Ebay with puck.

Pro-ject is cheaper with us in Europe unfortunately. Like you can buy VPI at bottom prices.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'm looking at a Classic 2 as a possible next step but I've heard VPI support horror stories. Also looking at Kuzma, Nottingham, Clear, WTL...Honestly any other brands to check out in the ~3k range would be appreciated. The rest of the budget will go into cart and phono stage.


----------



## calipilot227

Haha Morbid, didn't you _just_ buy a VPI Scout?


----------



## MorbidToaster

Yes, but one reason I bought it at all was I got a screamin' deal. Couldn't pass it up. 
   
  The other thing to realize is that this Scout has revitalized my love of vinyl. I wasn't sure if it was something I wanted to plunge into so at a grand...I've tested the waters...and my CD player has hardly been turned on since. 
   
  Now that our household is almost exclusively moving to analogue, we're already due for an upgrade.  Make sense? 
   
  Plus, I'll still have the Scout for quite awhile. I'm just planning ahead. Speakers, amp, stands are coming before the the new TT, and that's a lot of money in between. 
   
  Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Haha Morbid, didn't you _just_ buy a VPI Scout?


----------



## mark_h

Not mine unfortunately but worth a post anyway!


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Yes, but one reason I bought it at all was I got a screamin' deal. Couldn't pass it up.
> 
> The other thing to realize is that this Scout has revitalized my love of vinyl. I wasn't sure if it was something I wanted to plunge into so at a grand...I've tested the waters...and my CD player has hardly been turned on since.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yeah, that's exactly what happened to me. Got my DAC a month before my Thorens. Haven't touched my digital front end in a few months. Doesn't matter that vinyl is "technically inferior," I happen to love the way it sounds


----------



## MorbidToaster

My original plan was 3k, then it was 5k, then it went back down to 2k...and then I found the Scout I have now for 1k. 
   
  After setting up and listening to the Scout I realize that my original fears of vinyl were unwarranted, and my original plan of 5k is where I'm going to end up in the end. 
   
  Next on the list (even before speakers) is frames for some of these gorgeous LPs I have though. My walls are somewhat bare right now, and I have to change that asap.
   
  Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Yeah, that's exactly what happened to me. Got my DAC a month before my Thorens. Haven't touched my digital front end in a few months. Doesn't matter that vinyl is "technically inferior," I happen to love the way it sounds


----------



## chrstnwarrior88

Here are a few pics of my first/current TT.  Nothing super fancy, but I love music, and I love how it sounds.


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Yes, but one reason I bought it at all was I got a screamin' deal. Couldn't pass it up.
> 
> The other thing to realize is that this Scout has revitalized my love of vinyl. I wasn't sure if it was something I wanted to plunge into so at a grand...I've tested the waters...and my CD player has hardly been turned on since.
> 
> ...


 
  You may find that you like having the Scout around to play older records even after the upgrade. Some people play their older vinyl on a secondary deck where the needle is not so expensive as older scratched records can do damage to that 10K stylus. With the VPI arms interchangable a friend I know has two arm/needle combos, one for good new vinyl and one for edgy/old vinyl.


----------



## MorbidToaster

redcarmoose said:


> You may find that you like having the Scout around to play older records even after the upgrade. Some people play their older vinyl on a secondary deck where the needle is not so expensive as older scratched records can do damage to that 10K stylus. With the VPI arms interchangable a friend I know has two arm/needle combos, one for good new vinyl and one for edgy/old vinyl.




If it comes down to it and I have enough money I'll be doing that, or just getting a TT that fits 2 arms. Unfortunately the Classic 4 is a tough sell. Though Nottingham has quite a few offerings that fit 2 arms.


----------



## calipilot227

Update: Heard a Debut Carbon today. It's a very nice sounding table, great synergy between the tonearm and Ortofon 2M Red cart.
   
  BUT: There's just too much motor noise, and the infamous Pro-ject hum. I'm afraid that's a deal breaker 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I could always mount a Rega RB250 to my TD-145... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Yep, I think the Thorens is here to stay, at least until the money supply allows for a VPI.


----------



## ]eep

calipilot227 said:


> Update: Heard a Debut Carbon today. It's a very nice sounding table, great synergy between the tonearm and Ortofon 2M Red cart.
> 
> BUT: There's just too much motor noise, and the infamous Pro-ject hum. I'm afraid that's a deal breaker   I could always mount a Rega RB250 to my TD-145... :rolleyes:
> 
> Yep, I think the Thorens is here to stay, at least until the money supply allows for a VPI.



Motor hum? I've never noticed that. Until recently I owned a Perspective that was dead quiet.
I resent you calling that 'infamous Pro-ject hum'. You judge their whole range by the cheapest offering and the cheapest decent TT there is. Not fair.

Maybe you should have tried with the Speedbox and a better platter like the one I showed above.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





]eep said:


> Motor hum? I've never noticed that. Until recently I owned a Perspective that was dead quiet.
> *I resent you calling that 'infamous Pro-ject hum'. You judge their whole range by the cheapest offering and the cheapest decent TT there is. Not fair.
> Maybe you should have tried with the Speedbox and a better platter like the one I showed above.*


 
   
  Google it. I'm hardly the first to describe the problem in that manner.
   
  I would have tried a Speedbox if the dealer had one available. But I was actually very surprised how much vibration was coming from the motor. It definitely wasn't ground loop; I could feel it when I touched the plinth on the complete opposite side.
   
  Edit: A little google-fu confirmed that the RPM series suffers from this problem as well. Too bad, they look pretty good otherwise.


----------



## flecom

nvm


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> You may find that you like having the Scout around to play older records even after the upgrade. Some people play their older vinyl on a secondary deck where the needle is not so expensive as older scratched records can do damage to that 10K stylus. With the VPI arms interchangable a friend I know has two arm/needle combos, one for good new vinyl and one for edgy/old vinyl.


 
   
   
  I find it difficult to believe that scratchy vinyl would ever actually harm a stylus.
   
  Styli are made of very hard materials, industrial sapphires and the like.
   
  Vinyl is, well, vinyl.
   
  It's much more likely that a stylus would harm the vinyl than the other way around.


----------



## MorbidToaster

True but there's still something to be said about a more forgiving arm/cart combo.
   
  Quote: 





nelamvr6 said:


> I find it difficult to believe that scratchy vinyl would ever actually harm a stylus.
> 
> Styli are made of very hard materials, industrial sapphires and the like.
> 
> ...


----------



## Redcarmoose

nelamvr6 said:


> I find it difficult to believe that scratchy vinyl would ever actually harm a stylus.
> 
> Styli are made of very hard materials, industrial sapphires and the like.
> 
> ...


. Take a look at microscopic photographs of used stylus and you will see wear. Ocean water is soft and you can see what it does to rocks over the years. Sorry to inform you that your cartridge days are numbered just like miles on your car. You start out with a perfect stylus then it becomes worn into a funny soft shape. Lucky companies will do a retip so you can start the process over again. A cartridge really has a number of hours, but playing better records will get you longer life.


----------



## dminches

What is the definition of a better record? I would assume that most records that have been wet cleaned would be fine. Plus, haven't the grooves of an older record been worn? Maybe they would create less friction than a new one.


----------



## dminches

DP


----------



## Redcarmoose

dminches said:


> What is the definition of a better record? I would assume that most records that have been wet cleaned would be fine. Plus, haven't the grooves of an older record been worn? Maybe they would create less friction than a new one.


A cleaning machine is going to remove dust and oils. What ends up happening is your getting really two forms of damage both alerations(scratches) to the grooves which make pops as well as dust(small rocks/sand) which never make it completely out in the cleaning process.There is the simple natural wear of the needle by being in contact with the vinyl. New or well cared for records will be easer on the life of your needle. There are many photographs showing the used up tip of a needle which will be ineffective retrieving the signal from the groove by being lacking the physicality to simply get there due to the shape. A needle only sounds best after being worn in but before being worn out. The resulting sound is then lacking in separation as well as quality of highs at first. The big question is then weather to get a cheaper nice cart easy to replace and tip or an expensive cart which is expensive to replace or tip. Sorry for the wall of script, I'm on my Wife's IPad at the beach right now.


----------



## Redcarmoose

redcarmoose said:


> You may find that you like having the Scout around to play older records even after the upgrade. Some people play their older vinyl on a secondary deck where the needle is not so expensive as older scratched records can do damage to that 10K stylus. With the VPI arms interchangable a friend I know has two arm/needle combos, one for good new vinyl and one for edgy/old vinyl.
> 
> n


. 





I've been collecting records from the early 1970s but still no total expert. There really is though two very basic types. They tend to be a lot like the girls you meet. Some have had hard lives and been to a ton of parties. Others have stayed at home and gone to sleep early. Some can get refinished but never really end up the same as the well cared for ones. Records can come from a cared for collection and be in mint condition. New records are fine. Other times there is just some old record that was abused at a time or just used a lot. They get cleaned up and if the cover is nice they can come off as being great. You get home to find out there not as good as they looked at first. That's the fun of record collecting as at times and even under the best judgement you still don't know what you have until you get home and play them. Each label looks and sounds different with wear too. Some Apple pressing can look pretty bad but because the grooves are deep they still play well. A better turntable will also actually reduce the sound of scratches because the tracking and better needle will allow the needle to get better set into the groove as the scratches are really at the surface at times.


----------



## tomb

A bit embarassed by this after I've read all the talk discounting direct-drives, but this is my original compact disc player 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 sitting on top of a J75 tuner:

   
  I've had it since brand new in '81 - Technics SL-7.  It pretty much has the same specs as the much more popular SL-10, but it didn't have the built-in moving-coil amp and was a lot less $$.  Cartridge is a Shure V-15 LT.  It still sounds better than any of my DACs.  I understand those legs are quite a collector's item, now.  The silver ones like these are very scarce.  It was an additional feature from Technics to demonstrate how these would play in basically any position.


----------



## palmfish

Linear tracking! Cool beans!


----------



## Eee Pee

Whoa!


----------



## Silent One

yosaw Yosaw YOSAW!


----------



## calipilot227

Do you hear much motor noise from the tracking arm? I've heard that's a common "feature" of linear trackers.


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> . Take a look at microscopic photographs of used stylus and you will see wear. Ocean water is soft and you can see what it does to rocks over the years. Sorry to inform you that your cartridge days are numbered just like miles on your car. You start out with a perfect stylus then it becomes worn into a funny soft shape. Lucky companies will do a retip so you can start the process over again. A cartridge really has a number of hours, but playing better records will get you longer life.


 
   
   
  I understand that styli will wear, it's an imperfect world.
   
  I just don't think that scratched vinyl will wear your stylus appreciably more than non-scratched vinyl, I especially don't see the need to have two arms, one for scratched and one for non-scratched vinyl...


----------



## tomb

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Do you hear much motor noise from the tracking arm? I've heard that's a common "feature" of linear trackers.


 
  None, never.  The arm has never been an issue on mine - 30+ years and counting.
   
  The only complaint I've ever had is a tendency for audible rumble, especially with warped records.  There are two reasons for this, I think.  One, the turntable platter itself is quite hard.  If it was more pliable - like a rubber mat - it would probably absorb some of the anomalous record movement.  Two, the vibration isolator feet are not as quiet as they should be, and you can hear some rumble under the right conditions even wihout warped vinyl.  I think the fact that these turntables were designed to "hook into" the angled supports had something to do with it - the feet are probably stiffer than they should've been..  A rubber mat pretty much fixes it, if it's located low, horizontal, and in a piece of furniture that seems sympathetic to the floor.  Right now, I've got it up high on a shelf and on the angled supports - it's not an issue that way.
   
  The only other thing - and it's a nuisance rather than a complaint - is that with the SL-7, the ground wire and the RCA jacks are soldered directly to terminals inside the case.  I've taken great care of it through the years, so it hasn't been a problem with me, but it was kind of frustrating to never be able to swap out the cables or ground because they were hard-wired.


----------



## Redcarmoose

nelamvr6 said:


> I understand that styli will wear, it's an imperfect world.
> 
> I just don't think that scratched vinyl will wear your stylus appreciably more than non-scratched vinyl, I especially don't see the need to have two arms, one for scratched and one for non-scratched vinyl...



Having multiple arms for playing scratched records is actually very common weather you take my word for it or not.


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> Having multiple arms for playing scratched records is actually very common weather you take my word for it or not.


 
   
   
  I can assure you, it is NOT common!  In fact, owning a turntable AT ALL is most uncommon!
  
  If you can afford it, hell, have a different turntable for every day of the week! Have at it!  But you'll not convince me it's even close to necessary...


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





nelamvr6 said:


> I can assure you, it is NOT common!  In fact, owning a turntable AT ALL is most uncommon!
> 
> If you can afford it, hell, have a different turntable for every day of the week! Have at it!  But you'll not convince me it's even close to necessary...


 

 Well really I think it's done out of pure common sense. You would feel funny driving your expensive new car 60mph down a dirt road. You would feel better driving your old beater around on the road. That is where the concept comes from. I just suggested this to MT just because I think he may jump down the rabbit hole in needle purchases. From what I read he buys a lot of new records so maybe he will be fine with one table. I only own one tone arm but I don't play much old ruff vinyl. The new stuff sounds so good.
   
  It's just that you don't want to play a beat-up record on a $5K cart, it just doesn't feel right. It's better to play it on a cheaper cart. Much of this feeling comes from hearing really big pops, that's all. Some cringe. 
   
 The other concept is say you have 3000 records you purchased at a garage sale. You don't know what 3/4 of them are. Are you going to spend 20 minutes a record and wear out your cleaning machine cleaning every record? Are you going to put every record on your main turntable and possibly ruin your best cartridge in the process? For this person another turntable is necessary. If you buy only new records one arm would be fine.
   
   If you think about it, there is a valid concept of a rough record helping wear out an expensive needle. This is where it comes from.
   
   
  Actually there are more high-end turntables sold now than ever. Turntables are actually better now than they have ever been. The science of LP reproduction has continued to evolve, where tape has been left behind. Just a run though Needle Dr. will show you how big owning a turntable is. Good luck.


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> Well really I think it's done out of pure common sense. You would feel funny driving your expensive new car 60mph down a dirt road. You would feel better driving your old beater around on the road. That is where the concept comes from. I just suggested this to MT just because I think he may jump down the rabbit hole in needle purchases. From what I read he buys a lot of new records so maybe he will be fine with one table. I only own one tone arm but I don't play much old ruff vinyl. The new stuff sounds so good.
> 
> It's just that you don't want to play a beat-up record on a $5K cart, it just doesn't feel right. It's better to play it on a cheaper cart. Much of this feeling comes from hearing really big pops, that's all. Some cringe.
> 
> ...
 
   
  If one is in a position financially to have a dedicated turntable specifically for rough vinyl, I can see how that could help.  I just don't think most people are so fortunate.
   
  Personally, I try to avoid vinyl in poor shape, not because I fear for my stylus, it just sounds bad!


----------



## Silent One

Both points of view coexist within me.


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Both points of view coexist within me.


 
  It's maybe a little like the concept of two wives. More than one turntable would be fun but also more stress.
   
   
   
  Look at this!_* TD 2035  $3000 British Pounds*_
  http://www.thorens.com/


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Even before I looked, the model number suggests I wouldn't be able to afford it until the year 2035.


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> It's maybe a little like the concept of two wives. More than one turntable would be fun but also more stress.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Never mind that, look at this VPI!


----------



## nelamvr6

Or, if you're really well set, there's always this:


----------



## Redcarmoose




----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


>


 
   
   
  Now THAT is special!


----------



## Silent One

Man, I was just fixin' to go to bed! And now you two got me wanting to wash my Astrud Gilberto LP's for a quick listen...


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





tomb said:


> A bit embarassed by this after I've read all the talk discounting direct-drives, but this is my original compact disc player
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  +1. I discovered these little gems in about mid 90s and got my first from SL series in 2002 or so. SL 7 is WAY better than SL 10 - the 10 is unbelievable collection of teething troubles - it really does unfortunately have each and every _kinderkrankheit _ a design like that can possibly have. Later, Technics did get SL series eventually right. One of my P mount carts is also V 15 LT - a VERY fine performer, take good care of yours !
   
  Badmouthing direct drive is a CAPITAL SIN - when done right, it can outprtform both belt and idler drives. Not saying that SL 7's direct drive was perfect or the best of the breed - but it is a damn good one by anyone's standards. The SL 10, regardless of all the problems it has, still holds the record for wow and flutter actually measured with a test disc, not using optical methods - it is for all practical purposes the motor from SL 1200/1210 with "audiophile" electronics, not adapted to DJ use. SL 7 is completely different design, better IMO.
   
  One tip for SL 7/10/15 users - NEVER, EVER POWER IT FROM THE WALL - USE EXTERNAL REGULATED 12 V SUPPLY ! ( or 12V car battery for the truly dedicated )
  These 3 models have a jack for 12V DC in the back, meant to be powered from a lighter in car by car battery. CAUTION - observe the polarity, as reversed polarity will not destroy the deck, but will blow the fuse - and THAT is rather PITA to replace ( you have to practically disasemble the thing to reach the fuse ) - so, act accordingly if you value your time or mind paying needless service fees.
   
  Result of external PSU ? MUCH, much better sound - if you power it from the wall, there is a transformer within the deck, causing mechanical vibration at line frequency plus emiting stray hum field. All the audiophile criteria for turntable subjective SQ get improved. Otherwise, only TOTL Technics like SP 10 in its MK II and MK III version did have external PSUs as stock. Once you try external PSU with these decks, you will throw away the AC cord for off the wall operation..
   
  And become even more PROUD for owning a REALLY GOOD DIRECT DRIVE TURNTABLE.
   
  The best title of all of reviews of SL 10 when it was new was in Italian Suono or Stereoplay:
   
*Il primo giradischi Kamasutra che suona in tutte le posizioni *   - don't think this one needs translating !
   
   
  Merry Christmas to everyone !


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Do you hear much motor noise from the tracking arm? I've heard that's a common "feature" of linear trackers.


 
  Depends on the model - at least with Technics SL series. SL10/15, the original first design, can be horrible regarding that. SL7 is much better in this regard - went through 2 official revisions , I found at least two additional unofficial ones by examining the SL7s in the field - the latest is actually quiet (enough). Latest models in the series were totally silent in this regard - even on TOTL full range speakers / TOTL headphones no thumping and such as is the unfortunate characteristic of SL 10.
   
  When everything is functioning correctly, Technics SLs equipped with good/excellent/THE BEST = EPC P100CMK4 cartridge ( best of of any and all cartridges ) are extremely hard to beat at any cost - but not all the models offer the same high SQ.


----------



## tomb

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> +1. I discovered these little gems in about mid 90s and got my first from SL series in 2002 or so. SL 7 is WAY better than SL 10 - the 10 is unbelievable collection of teething troubles - it really does unfortunately have each and every _kinderkrankheit _ a design like that can possibly have. Later, Technics did get SL series eventually right. One of my P mount carts is also V 15 LT - a VERY fine performer, take good care of yours !
> 
> Badmouthing direct drive is a CAPITAL SIN - when done right, it can outprtform both belt and idler drives. Not saying that SL 7's direct drive was perfect or the best of the breed - but it is a damn good one by anyone's standards. The SL 10, regardless of all the problems it has, still holds the record for wow and flutter actually measured with a test disc, not using optical methods - it is for all practical purposes the motor from SL 1200/1210 with "audiophile" electronics, not adapted to DJ use. SL 7 is completely different design, better IMO.
> 
> ...


 
  Interesting idea about the external power supply.  I have some excellent linear-regulated supplies that I can try.  I always new it had a "car adapter" plug, but thought that the idea of running one in a car was absolutely ridiculous - another example of Technics' marketing run wild.


----------



## Skylab

Now spinning: ZZ Top live in Germany 1980


----------



## dminches

How festive!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





tomb said:


> Interesting idea about the external power supply.  I have some excellent linear-regulated supplies that I can try.  I always new it had a "car adapter" plug, but thought that the idea of running one in a car was absolutely ridiculous - another example of Technics' marketing run wild.


 
  I actually planned to have one running in a car - remote control at the wheel, super dedicated shock/stabilizer suspension in the trunk, etc, etc -. but then my car got stolen and I stopped tempting the 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ! The most suitable model would be SL-3, a belt driven table, because DDs react violently to any movements around the axis of platter rotation - the speed goes berserk; that is why you won't see any DDs on spring supports/subchassis - always some kind of solid/sorbothane/not-moving-appreciably feet.
   
  Let me know when you throw your wall power cable away  - and please spread the gospel why you did it !


----------



## Blooze

Another Technics SL owner.  I have a pristine SL-5 that was my aunt's.  She bought it new in the early 80's I believe and said she had only played a few dozen albums on it before it was stowed away.  She gave it to me a couple of years ago and I've been enjoying it ever since.  It's got a Audio Technica AT112EP on it, but I'm sure could use something better.


----------



## tomb

Hey, Blooze!  It's been awhile.  Glad to see you still posting!
   
  Also glad to see you're a fellow Technics linear-tracking SL owner.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





blooze said:


> Another Technics SL owner.  I have a pristine SL-5 that was my aunt's.  She bought it new in the early 80's I believe and said she had only played a few dozen albums on it before it was stowed away.  She gave it to me a couple of years ago and I've been enjoying it ever since.  It's got a Audio Technica AT112EP on it, but I'm sure could use something better.


 
  Q: What is the difference between Vivaldi and Audio Technica ?
  A: None whatsover. Vivaldi wrote 4 concertos in 300 versions, AT built 4 cartridge designs in
      X x 300 versions. ( exact numbers can be a topic for debate, but you get the drift )
   
  Appreciate, cherish & enjoy  - both !
   
  Seriously, what I meant was the following : the P mount cart you have I call AT Vivaldi - it will take any stylus that looks like this 
   
  http://www.garage-a-records.com/proddetail.php?prod=atn440mla
   
  The current regular TOTL stylus for your cart is ATN150MLX - but if you really insist on nothing but the best, there is 
   
  http://www.vinylengine.com/library/audio-technica/at150.shtml
   
  at about twice the cost of ATN150MLX - and rather difficult to procure separately without the entire cartridge package even in Japan.
   
  Did not pull the trigger on ATN150ANV sapphire tube cantilevered stylus myself - yet; ATN150MLX is superb with AT Vivaldis on Technics SLs, as it is a tad bulkier/heavier than styli for P-mounts, you will have to adjust the vertical tracking force on those tables that allow for it - the easiest way to do it (almost ) right is by removing the flip down stylus guard; but take care not to remove stylus as well while at it!
   
  There are really good Shibata styli for "Vivaldi" by JICO - at very reasonable prices. It does not have to cost an arm and a leg to get a "sting" for your SL that will put a guaranteed smile on your face. And Shibata is less sensitive regarding VTA - if you do not know how/what you are doing with VTA on Technics SLs, MUCH safer recommendations than Micro Line polished styli of 440MLa and upwards - which WILL backfire if not aligned properly.
   
  Happy and, above all, GENTLE vynil "grinding" possible with SL arm -  to all of its users !


----------



## ]eep

I know the SL-5 because my brother still owns it. He bought it new 30Y ago. He still thinks it's a fabulous player...:rolleyes:
WHen I bought my first TT, a Dual 505-II it slapped it all around the room. Tangential tracing is a good concept only almost impossible to do it right. Or very expensive. I really don't get it why people are so fond of Technics TT's other than for nostalgic reasons.

Just a moment ago I was listening to The Planets by Solti (VINYL2496: Gustav Holst - The Planets - 1979). When the choir came on it just sounded *horrible*. Really horrible distortion. I couldn't trace the setup so I looked it up in google how it was done. I give you 1 guess... (yes, the SL1200). :eek:


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





]eep said:


> I know the SL-5 because my brother still owns it. He bought it new 30Y ago. He still thinks it's a fabulous player...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  OK - the whole story. Technics SL series is a potential world beater - actual product sold to the public can be very so-so. SL-5 is not among the players within the range/line with great SQ to begin with.
   
  My first encounter with SL series came in about early 90s - since I am very good with anything vynil ( worked briefly at Benz Micro Switzerland, following quite a long line of prototypes and pre production units I evaluated  back then), an acquaintance called me if I can "fix" a strange table with strange symptoms. Sure enough, it was one of SLs. This is about the most hermetically unpenetrable design as they go regarding ANY adjustments to the tonearm/cartridge : no precise lateral geometry correction, no VTA adjustment, no azimuth adjustment, later/latest models even no vertical tracking force adjustment , no "official" possibility to check for vertical tracking force with a gauge, etc, etc - therfore ZILCH one could do about it. But it did give me creeps - attached to that strange looking arm was a Technics cart that belied each, every and all beliefs regarding my then opinion on Technics - the cantilever and stylus on that "thing" certainly did look the part, easily equaling or besting ANYTHING seen to that time. Scratch the head as I possibly could , I could not decipher how to do - anything. I am frank by nature and admitted to the owner of the deck I have not got the faintest about it and told him I am afraid to monkey around so precious cartridge/stylus without any user manual etc. For the first time in my life, I had to admit defeat - by some TECHNICS table, of all of them !
   
  The cartridge on that fateful table was later identified as EPC P205CMK3, one of the very best MM cartridges in history, performance of which is exceeded only by a very small number of carts, be it MM or MC - mostly from the Technics itself: EPC P205CMK4 and EPC P100CMK4, which I consider to be the best ever - unfortunately never heard one, but did hear those that the fabled 100/4 should improve upon.
   
  That Planets ( one of my fav demo pieces for TTs ) plays on well adjusted 1200 just fine - but wait till you hear it on well adjusted SL !!! I did my homework since that horrible day I had to admit the defeat - this thing operates on entirely different mind set than practically anything else and unless you start thinking similarly, effectively repeating the thinking of its designer, and continue with "turntable bussiness as usual", you will not get anywhere but to results you described. You simply need not to be appaled at lack of adjustments for - ahem...everything and not capitulate from the deck's automatisms that prevent - ahem, everything again. It is made and conceived as "fire & forget" - and that would work in a perfect world, where each and every cartridge is made with zero tolerance, etc, etc. Real world tolerances are what they are and Technics could be accused to show more variations sample to sample than some other manufacturers - some 20 or so ( from low to P205CMK3 quality) Technics P Mount carts in residence are statystically enough to lay down such a claim. No wonder very few actual combinations table/cartridge/stylus performed as they should - giving the design bad reputation in the process. QC on the actual tablers also left much to be desired - free play in tonearm bearings, poorly adjusted servo for tonearm movement etc, etc were unfortunately more rule than exception.
   
  In a word, you must not fight it, trying to prove it has many flaws ( it does, all but the very last one in the series, at which any "serious" audiophille would scoff at, as it is taken together about 3,5 kg of plastics, power cord included - yet, it is the most technically advanced TT Technics ever produced and can be made to sound absolutely fabuolous - but it "looks" so that "serious" audiophile would never admit ever to come within a mile of that table ! ), but you must try to help it as best as you can. Then, it will return your effort - many times over.
   
  After that , you will begin your hunt for GOOD P Mount cartridges ...a properly set up SL will hold its own against most, given a good vibration free support. A properly modified one on equally good or better support with good cartridge will give ANY other table, regardless of cost, a bloody nose.


----------



## tomb

Holst Planets - Deustche Grammaphon Steinberg-Boston Symphony?  One of my absolute, all-time favorites.  I have the Telarc 1812 Overture, too - definitely a great test record.


----------



## Blooze

Well, my SL-5 might be at the bottom of the SL rung, but it was free, plays albums reasonably well, and....it was free.  My hearing's bad enough it's not a big deal anyway.  When I'm ready to step up I'll likely upgrade to a Rega P3 or a SOTA Moonbeam.  I don't see that happening anytime soon though.  Too many other projects that are higher up on the list.  Heck, I've had a Millett Max PCB for years now that's still sitting unpopulated (and one of the original MIllett boards from over at Headwize with a Steinchen buffer not populated either), and the R1, and a Meier Xfeed PCB that I've had for nearly 6-7 years.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





tomb said:


> Holst Planets - Deustche Grammaphon Steinberg-Boston Symphony?  One of my absolute, all-time favorites.  I have the Telarc 1812 Overture, too - definitely a great test record.


 
  Unfortunately not familiar with this one. I particularly like Karajan on Decca, especially Saturn - The Bringer od Old Age;- it somehow achieves the scariest of emotions, namely getting conscious you are getting older by the second, getting ever nearer to the inescapable, that you will be older/different by the time this movement of The Planets ends and that you are powerless to do anything about it. God - it occured to me while still in my teens ! This version of The Planets trandescens a mere test disc for me, it is something I approach with great respect and do not take lightly. Not exactly a great admirer of Karajan otherwise, but if he never did anything but this Saturn, would still rank highly in my book.
   
  Classic Planets is also Previn on EMI/Angel, which I have in Angel 45 series at 45 RPM. Quite warped, my sample, unfortunately. Despite being analogsurviver not only in name but in heart and soul, I would have to admit that SACD of Naxos ( do not own it, heard quite a while ago, forgot who the musicians are ) beats LPs for sheer sonics - you can not pack the wallop in bass needed to reproduce really full frequency range with full dynamics on LP without creating another "1812" - of which at least 2 ( or was it 3 ? ) versions exist - the first original one was deemed too much, as only a handfull of carts and arms was capable of sort of staying in the groove - with everything else simply jumping out of the groove ! You can google for Stan Ricker's interview(s) for more details regarding analog LP versions of the 1812. Any good Audio Technica MM, better Shure or Grado fitted to properly adjusted Dynavector arm(s) should be among creme de la creme for 1812 off LP. MCs for 1812 ? Never heard these, but Denon 1000, possibly Denon 103 ?version, Denon 304,  Ortofon MC2000 or light tracking Highphonic carts should be capable of doing it, as were original Dynavector Karat DV100 R and D. All of these carts, with the exception of still sporadically available DL 304, are now to be found only in the homes of the most "obsessed and deranged" - oops, greatest analog connoisseurs.
   
  Equally, during Neptune - The mystic, vynil rumble and noise and ticks and pops will mar the extremely quiet music on all but the best record players - but if and when you climb up the analog ladder high enough, it will give you things in this piece only SACD can approach. It is in quiet passages that really good analog shows what is it all about - unfortunately, here money not only talks, but screams. I think everyone interested in music enough to be reading these lines should be at least once in his/her lifetime able to experience analog at its best - just to know what is possible with this "antiquated technology"; it is decision of each individual whether to go this path or settle for less or wait for something really capable of replacing vynil.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





blooze said:


> Well, my SL-5 might be at the bottom of the SL rung, but it was free, plays albums reasonably well, and....it was free.  My hearing's bad enough it's not a big deal anyway.  When I'm ready to step up I'll likely upgrade to a Rega P3 or a SOTA Moonbeam.  I don't see that happening anytime soon though.  Too many other projects that are higher up on the list.  Heck, I've had a Millett Max PCB for years now that's still sitting unpopulated (and one of the original MIllett boards from over at Headwize with a Steinchen buffer not populated either), and the R1, and a Meier Xfeed PCB that I've had for nearly 6-7 years.


 
  It is STILL a SL - if nothing else, quite incapable of ruining the records if it works properly and its stylus is not worn. With pivoted arms, if you do not set the antiskating right enough, it is very easy to demage the records - near impossibility with SL.
   
  Meier Xfeed PCB sitting unpopulated for 7 years ? I can tell you, it IS great amp, bought it this summer and do not regret one iota I did. Best bang for the buck anywhere.


----------



## Blooze

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> It is STILL a SL - if nothing else, quite incapable of ruining the records if it works properly and its stylus is not worn. With pivoted arms, if you do not set the antiskating right enough, it is very easy to demage the records - near impossibility with SL.
> 
> Meier Xfeed PCB sitting unpopulated for 7 years ? I can tell you, it IS great amp, bought it this summer and do not regret one iota I did. Best bang for the buck anywhere.


 
  Well the Meier is actually the Corda Cross pcb that Jan sold the last of back in 2006:   http://www.head-fi.org/t/165831/dr-meiers-cross-1-discussion


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





blooze said:


> Well the Meier is actually the Corda Cross pcb that Jan sold the last of back in 2006:   http://www.head-fi.org/t/165831/dr-meiers-cross-1-discussion


 
  http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/portaamp.htm
   
  mine is obviously more Johny Come Lately version, but it IS great little amp. Thank you for the link - given the time ...


----------



## tomb

Quote:


]eep said:


> I know the SL-5 because my brother still owns it. He bought it new 30Y ago. He still thinks it's a fabulous player...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Duals always sucked (JMHO)  My Elac Miracord 50H would run circles around the Dual 1219.  My buddy loved Garrard's, but they were worse than both.  That was the big 3 at the time, though (1972).  All of that was way before Technics was even a glimmer in the US.  If memory serves, Garrard came out with the Zero 100 in late '72 - the first with a zero tracking error (or so they marketed it), but it was really an articulated linkage that mechanically corrected for the tangential error - anti-skating was still heavily in need, AFAIR.  The Technics turntables brought out the true linear tracking several years later.
   
  *Sigh* I guess I'm going too far back with turntables and my albums.  How about an original MFSL Dark Side of the Moon (1978)?  That's a little later.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  crap - I'm too old.  I'm gonna go grab a beer and forget about it.


----------



## palmfish

tomb said:


> Quote:
> *Sigh* I guess I'm going too far back with turntables and my albums.  How about an original MFSL Dark Side of the Moon (1978)?  That's a little later.   crap - I'm too old.  I'm gonna go grab a beer and forget about it.




I still have all of my MFSL albums - including DSOTM.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





tomb said:


> Quote:
> Duals always sucked (JMHO)  My Elac Miracord 50H would run circles around the Dual 1219.  My buddy loved Garrard's, but they were worse than both.  That was the big 3 at the time, though (1972).  All of that was way before Technics was even a glimmer in the US.  If memory serves, Garrard came out with the Zero 100 in late '72 - the first with a zero tracking error (or so they marketed it), but it was really an articulated linkage that mechanically corrected for the tangential error - anti-skating was still heavily in need, AFAIR.  The Technics turntables brought out the true linear tracking several years later.
> 
> *Sigh* I guess I'm going too far back with turntables and my albums.  How about an original MFSL Dark Side of the Moon (1978)?  That's a little later.
> ...


 
  As much as I like Technics SL, it was not Technics who brought out true linear tracking. Ladies ( if any on this thread ) and gentleman, THE ultimate turntable porn ( if such thing exists ) - IIRC from the original brochure " every precision finely machined component in full view, all mechanisms fascinating to operate and watch " - the one and only, the first, the unique, the incomparable, the most beautiful turntable of all time :
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8SmGua7Zxg
   
  here a link to great pics - do not want to "steal" them:
   
  http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/general-av-discussions/59344-transcriptor-transcriber-turntable.html
   
  Thing has stationary unipivot pick up arm shorter than conventional headshell mounted on the lid; this is THE arm with lowest effective mass and inertia of all times; the whole platter travels left-right ( governed by the photo servo circuit ) on the rails in the base in order to maintain the tracking error to an absolute minimum; the two motors use special arrangement with the three "column weights" arranged with steel axle "bearing"" at the top of each weight and springs at the bottom in order to give required decoupling of the two sinchronous motors - unique solution to this age old problem, no other table in the world has synchronous motor(s) known to produce fair amount of vibration mounted "directly" to the same structure to which the main turntable bearing is attached - heard each and every Transcriptors save Transcriber ( they are all extremely quiet, including the Round Table ), but nowhere any reports of rumble on Transcriber to be heard about.
   
  No idea how it is with feedback regarding zero suspension, not even rubber feet, but the arm itself should be the most feedback resistanr device in itself; even far better in this regard than Transcrioptors' own Vestigal pick up arm, which outperforms most more conventional designs by a really big margin. If anyone has first hand experience with Transcriber - I am all ears !


----------



## basman

Now Spinning Deep Purple's Last Concert in Japan with Mark IV lineup (1975-1976);
   

 Jon Lord – keyboards, backing vocals
 Ian Paice – drums
 David Coverdale – lead vocals
 Glenn Hughes – bass, vocals
 Tommy Bolin – guitar, vocals, bass
   

   
   
  Stereo Pickup: Ortofon 2M


----------



## MorbidToaster

basman said:


> Now Spinning Deep Purple's Last Concert in Japan with Mark IV lineup (1975-1976);
> 
> 
> Jon Lord – keyboards, backing vocals
> ...




Is that a Scout with a 2M Black? How do you like it?


----------



## basman

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Is that a Scout with a 2M Black? How do you like it?


 
   
  Didn't fail me, I like the bass and highs on this cart and tracks very well but still love Grado's mids and highs on my Gold & Platinum1.


----------



## calipilot227

Your azimuth looks a little off... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (I'm joking, of course. I know it's the angle of the photo)


----------



## basman

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Your azimuth looks a little off...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I noticed that too and did a second look on the actual


----------



## ]eep

The recording I was talking about was "Holst - The Planets performed by Sir Georg Solti, London Philarmonic Orchestra". Supposedly one of the best recordings (of the many, many, many). I just took a look in my vinyl cabinet and unfortunately there is no Holst... Should be easy to buy a good copy at the 2ndH store here. I do own the Dutoit version on CD that does it for me. 

I was listening to a vinyl-rip on FLAC but with those YMMV very indeed. There are quite some ppl who are so enthousiastic that they loose objectivity on sound quality. Makes me think: they are so surprised that they get decent sound from a mass-produced 30y-old turntable and knowing only cd-sound (or MP3?) they have no idea what is going wrong (or any idea on QC of their own hobby). Just plain amateuristic. And there are some guys out there that really know what they are doing. They bring a lot of out of print treasures back into ppls attention, and with respect to the original sound.

Here some examples I found on rigs used:
_SL1210mk2, AT120E, Pro-ject Phono Box SE II, EMU0404
Technics SL-1200MK2 Turntable, Shure V15VxMR Cartridge, LP Gear SHVN5xMR Super Analogue Stylus, Sonic Bliss Audiophile Turntable Mat, Custom built, all tube phono stage
Linn LP12 with Lingo power supply, Ittok LV II arm, Ortofon MC 20 Super II Cartridge, Accuphase C11 Phono-pre
Music Hall MMF 9.1 Turntable, Tonearm Pro-Ject 9cc Evo with Pure Silver Wires, Nagaoka MP-500, Brocksieper Phonomax (Tube Phono-PreAmp)
Turntable: VPI Scoutmaster, Tonearm: Trans-Fi Termninator, Cartridge: Audio-Technica AT33PTG/II, Phone Stage: Cinemag SUT feeding a Marantz 2220B
Turntable - Sharp Optonica Rp-7100, PHONO PRE.Amplifier - SLOWAY PPA 902 MM/MC
TT: Dual 622, Cartridge: Audio Technica AT 120 E, Phono Stage: Yamaha - Model CA-VI
Technics 1200 MKII, Shure M44-7
Rega P3-24 W/TTPSU Audio-Technica Cartridge AT33EV Upgraded Rega Drive Belt, Dual Rega Felt Pads for VTA, Project PhonoBox SE II
Technics SL-1210 MK2 DD Turntable,Origin Live OL1 fully modified tone arm (Rega RB250),Audio-Technica AT33EV MC Cartridge
Technics SL-1200MK2 Turntable, Ortofon 2M Black cartridge, Pro-Ject Tube Box SE II Preamp
Technics SP 15 with SME 3009 tonearm & customized plinth, Cartridge: Ortofon Concorde 30 + OM 30 stylus, Phono amp: Pro-Ject Tube Box II with 2X JAN 12AX 7WA
Rega P25 Turntable, Rega Exact Cartridge, Coda 01 Preamp
Pro-Ject Debut III Esprit turntable, ATN440MLa stylus
SL1210mk2, AT120E, Sony DB870 (probably serves the Spice Girls right )
Denon DP-45F, Audio Technica AT120E, Cambridge 640P
Technics SL 1210 Mk II Heybrook TT2 with Origin Live! power supply and DC motor, Rega RB 300 tonearm (Origin Live! mod), Denon DL 304 M/C Cartridge, NAD 3101 (M/C phono section)_
This is just a random sample I found. I think it pretty much speaks for itself. Fortunately the prolific ones use the better equipment.


----------



## tomb

I still think the Deutsche Grammophone/Steinberg-Boston Symphony version is the best, but I'm an old fart and that may pre-date most of you:

   
  I've had the vinyl since 72, at least.
   
  The CD version gets some excellent reviews - it's one of the quickest at 46 minutes, even though Holst would do it at 41, supposedly.  At least, that's in one of the reviews I read.  Today they package the CD version with Steinberg's rendering of Zarathustra - not too sure about his version of that one, but the Planets is the best, IMHO.
   
  My friends and I always used the DG vinyl version of the Planets as our definitive equipment tests.  I can remember listening to this while stacking Advents fed from a Sherwood S8900A and a Benjamin Miracord with a fat Empire cartridge.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  One buddy had a Dual and a Sony 7065 with Advents (that's how we got 4 of them to try the stacking).  Another had a huge Kenwood reciever and Audio Analyst speakers with one of the first versions of the SL-1200, I think.  Maybe this is an AudioKarma post?


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





]eep said:


> The recording I was talking about was "Holst - The Planets performed by Sir Georg Solti, London Philarmonic Orchestra". Supposedly one of the best recordings (of the many, many, many). I just took a look in my vinyl cabinet and unfortunately there is no Holst... Should be easy to buy a good copy at the 2ndH store here. I do own the Dutoit version on CD that does it for me.
> I was listening to a vinyl-rip on FLAC but with those YMMV very indeed. There are quite some ppl who are so enthousiastic that they loose objectivity on sound quality. Makes me think: they are so surprised that they get decent sound from a mass-produced 30y-old turntable and knowing only cd-sound (or MP3?) they have no idea what is going wrong (or any idea on QC of their own hobby). Just plain amateuristic. And there are some guys out there that really know what they are doing. They bring a lot of out of print treasures back into ppls attention, and with respect to the original sound.
> Here some examples I found on rigs used:
> _SL1210mk2, AT120E, Pro-ject Phono Box SE II, EMU0404
> ...


 
  And the link to the site with these TT FLACs is .... ?  -  PLEASE !
   
  I had a "audiophille up-nose thing" about the 1200/1210 too - until got one at long last for service last year. After the arm bearings were adjusted correctly and cartridge aligned right, it is not the last thing in turntables but is actually quite decent indeed. It has VERY nice VTA adjustment mechanism, something even most separate audiophille pickup arms lack - does help a ton with better stylus tip profiles that are very critical to get the VTA right. 
   
  There is another thing you can experience with vynil when large dynamic outbursts like in Holst are to be reproduced - your turntable/arm/cartridge may well reproduce it right, but the record has been played on lesser turntable(s)   that demaged it - your new or better/right adjusted TT is simply reproducing the demage correctly - and that is something I wish no one to experience with his/hers records. Only Micro Line/Scanner/Ridge/Reach
  stylus ( also goes under Jico's SAS name ) can help you with these - to a point, if the demage is not too gross. The problem you described with 1210/Holst might also be one of these sad cases - correctly adjusted 1210 is perfectly capable of clean reproduction.
   
  Check this out: http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm


----------



## palmfish

Another vote here for Dutoit / MSO recording of The Planets.


----------



## Clayton SF

Okay. The Parrot label is so cool looking.


----------



## calipilot227

@ClaytonSF: Is that a Pro-Ject Xpression?


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> @ClaytonSF: Is that a Pro-Ject Xpression?


 

 @calipilot227, yes it is. And it came with a Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 cartridge. Vinyl really does justice to 60s music that has brass--like sax and sax and horns and horns.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> @calipilot227, yes it is. And it came with a Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 cartridge. *Vinyl really does justice to 60s music that has brass--like sax and sax and horns and horns. *


 
   
  I've yet to discover a genre to which it does not do justice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Beautiful table! Too bad their entry level products have hum problems/build quality issues


----------



## gazar

Vyger Timor with Achromat and modded RB300 with ZYX cartridge


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> I've yet to discover a genre to which it does not do justice
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  That's what I've been hearing. What were they thinking?
  Tell me, if you had around $500 which would be the turntable would you buy? I've been thinking that myself. The first serious turntable I bought was the Technics SL-1200MK2 for $330, new from Amazon in 2009. I only played it for a few months then boxed it back up and stored it away.


----------



## palmfish

clayton sf said:


> That's what I've been hearing. What were they thinking?
> Tell me, if you had around $500 which would be the turntable would you buy? I've been thinking that myself. The first serious turntable I bought was the Technics SL-1200MK2 for $330, new from Amazon in 2009. I only played it for a few months then boxed it back up and stored it away.




For $500 i wouldnt buy a new table. I would buy a previously loved Pioneer or Denon DD turntable from the mid to late 80's (their heyday). Your Technincs qualifies too.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> For $500 i wouldnt buy a new table. I would buy a previously loved Pioneer or Denon DD turntable from the mid to late 80's (their heyday). Your Technincs qualifies too.


 
  At first I heard that DD turntables weren't as good as belt driven ones, but it seems that my DD Technics TT is still very accurate and very quiet as well. I may just resurrect it this weekend. However I would like to replace the RCA cables--they look pretty basic.


----------



## Blooze

How about a Project Debut III with acrylic platter, speed box, and a Denon DL110 cart for $500?  I think I know where I can get one.


----------



## Skylab

I would for sure resurrect your Technics and try it out before buying a new TT in the $500 range. If the technics still works, better to spend the money on a new cartridge, and records


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I would for sure resurrect your Technics and try it out before buying a new TT in the $500 range. If the technics still works, better to spend the money on a new cartridge, and records


 

 The Technics is practically brand new.
   
  Yes--a new cartridge and new records! Excellent advice. Thanks, Skylab.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> At first I heard that DD turntables weren't as good as belt driven ones, but it seems that my DD Technics TT is still very accurate and very quiet as well. I may just resurrect it this weekend. However I would like to replace the RCA cables--they look pretty basic.


 

 Yes, your Technics is a fine turntable. You won't get anything better for $500 - hell, you could spend $1000 and not get better performance.
   
  There's nothing wrong with DD if done right, which the SL1200 certainly is. I agree with Skylab - dust that beauty off and recommission it!


----------



## Silent One

Lunch is terrible today.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Despite being tasty (grilled Salmon, spicy kimchi on the side) I am not enjoying it much, if at all. No sooner than I sat down with it, my mind was flooded with audio purchases and what to get...before the clock strikes Midnight!
   
  What's on the table now:
   
  VPI 16.5 RCM vs Ortofon Bronze cart & new 180 Gram LP's vs M2Tech EVO w/Batt vs Spring cleaning of Pioneer SX-D7000. 
   
  All of these are wants not needs. But then, doesn't 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 desire drive this hobby? Anyone here use steam to clean their records?


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> That's what I've been hearing. What were they thinking?
> Tell me, if you had around $500 which would be the turntable would you buy? I've been thinking that myself. The first serious turntable I bought was the Technics SL-1200MK2 for $330, new from Amazon in 2009. I only played it for a few months then boxed it back up and stored it away.


 
   
  I will likely pull the trigger on the Rega RP1. After directly comparing it with the Pro-ject and Music Hall offerings as well as my Thorens, it was the best-sounding of the three even with the stock cart. Goes to show just how important the tonearm design really is.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Anyone here use steam to clean their records?


 
   
  That sounds like a terrible idea


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> That sounds like a terrible idea


 
  x2!
   
  I have gotten such good mileage on my Sumiko Blue Point No.2 cartridge that I have yet replace it (going on 2 years). I still have 2 boxed unused spare cartridges that I may want to use on the Technics this weekend. I bought these a few years ago. The Denon DL-160 and the Denon DL-103R. I've never heard the 103R.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> The Technics is practically brand new.
> 
> Yes--a new cartridge and new records! Excellent advice. Thanks, Skylab.


 
  If the Technics is practically new, so is its cartridge/stylus. Therefore...check it first.
   
  I would caution against changing those basic RCA cables UNLESS you know exactly what you (or the service guy doing work for you) are doing. Tonearm output cables can not be replaced using audiophool criteria alone - if you are not exclusively MC cartridge user, the capacitance of those RCA cables IS important - Technics themselves blew it in the la(te)st series, by fitting cables with more than 400 pF ( pico Farad ) capacitance per channel in cables, rendering the table practically unusable with most MMs. As yours might be affected, check it or have it checked for sure if you have (most probably almost new ) MM cartridge fitted - cable capacitance of 400+ pF will kill the sound of most MMs. Might well be the reason why you stored it yourself so soon.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote:  





> ^ Might well be the reason why you stored it yourself so soon.


 
   
  Interesting. The first LP I put on the Technics was Led Zeppelin II. And I remember that it sounded so thin but thought nothing more of it blaming it on my cheap amp. _*Here is the turntable I bought from Amazon with my customer images that I had shared*_ back in May of 2009.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


>


 
   
  Went digging back through this thread for fun. You've come a long way buddy!


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  The portable steamer that Mapleshade Records offer only rises to 140* output. This approaches the region for my delicate teas, which are meant to be prepared warm not hot.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





silent one said:


> The portable steamer that Mapleshade Records offer only rises to 140* output. This approaches the region for my delicate teas, which are meant to be prepared warm not hot.


 
   
  If you end up trying it, definitely use distilled water rather than tap water.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> If you end up trying it, definitely use distilled water rather than tap water.


 
  You beat me to mentioning distilled/demineralized water vs tap water - that would wreck havoc.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Went digging back through this thread for fun. You've come a long way buddy!


 
  Such direct drives might not be the last word in turntables, but can get you a decent start in analog - which can also return back to direct drive at the opposite side of the price spectrum.


----------



## palmfish

Like all things audio, and most things in life, the law of diminishing (or non existing) returns applies.


----------



## Clayton SF

Boohoo. I am at work. But wait! Look what just arrived for me from Amazon!
  Vinyl Vivaldi, Recomposed by Max Richter.


----------



## palmfish

All this talk of DD - a good excuse to show off my latest acquisition.
   
  My friends' father used to work in the recording industry and he has a collection of demo albums from back in the day - still in shrink wrap. My friend gives me a thoughful album every year for my birthday and Christmas. Here is a shot of the album I got for Christmas this year...
   

   
  (Tangerine Dream - Tangram for those who can't read the label)


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> if you are not exclusively MC cartridge user, _*the capacitance of those RCA cables IS important *_- Technics themselves blew it in the la(te)st series, by fitting cables with more than 400 pF ( pico Farad ) capacitance per channel in cables, _*rendering the table practically unusable with most MMs*_. As yours might be affected, check it or have it checked for sure if you have (most probably almost new ) MM cartridge fitted - cable capacitance of 400+ pF will kill the sound of most MMs.


 
  Thanks for the info.
  Then I will most definitely use the Denon DL-103R cartridge on the Technics.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> Boohoo. I am at work. But wait! Look what just arrived for me from Amazon!
> Vinyl Vivaldi, Recomposed by Max Richter.


 
   
  WOW!




   
  I have some GB's of Vivaldi - The Four Seasons but only on DVD.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Aquafina, baby!


----------



## Skylab

palmfish said:


> All this talk of DD - a good excuse to show off my latest acquisition.
> 
> My friends' father used to work in the recording industry and he has a collection of demo albums from back in the day - still in shrink wrap. My friend gives me a thoughful album every year for my birthday and Christmas. Here is a shot of the album I got for Christmas this year...
> 
> ...




That's a sweet Pioneer deck!!! Congrats.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





skylab said:


> That's a sweet Pioneer deck!!! Congrats.


 
  And a sweet LP, too. I have the record as well.


----------



## palmfish

My favorite Tangerine Dream album is Exit. Alas, I only have it on CD...


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> My favorite Tangerine Dream album is Exit. Alas, I only have it on CD...


 
  Tangerine Dream is definitely one band that didn't make it to CD sounding the way they were first released on vinyl. Lucky they sold a ton of records so they are out there!!


----------



## Maverickmonk

Just got my NAD 533 (Rega P 2). Loving it, and spinning some Nirvana


----------



## ]eep

clayton sf said:


> Boohoo. I am at work. But wait! Look what just arrived for me from Amazon!
> Vinyl Vivaldi, Recomposed by Max Richter.



Although that is not what immediately catches my eye. The 'engelse drop' does. It says 'english licorice' but you betcha its Dutch alright. Watch it, it's addictive. 


analogsurviver said:


> And the link to the site with these TT FLACs is .... ?  -  PLEASE !
> 
> I had a "audiophille up-nose thing" about the 1200/1210 too - until got one at long last for service last year. After the arm bearings were adjusted correctly and cartridge aligned right, it is not the last thing in turntables but is actually quite decent indeed. It has VERY nice VTA adjustment mechanism, something even most separate audiophille pickup arms lack - does help a ton with better stylus tip profiles that are very critical to get the VTA right.
> 
> ...



About the question where I get those vinyl-rips; just type "vinyl-rip flac 24 bit/192" in google and you get plenty of leads.

I'm not saying the 1200 is bad, just that is is made for a different purpose with different needs. And the arm is IMO a weak point for best hifi-reproduction, just like the lack of platter mass/material matching. I don't really care HOW you get the wheel spinning (DD/idler/belt) as long as it has plenty of inertia and mass (and matching shear modulus and density to the vinyl) to absorb vibrations from needle/groove contact. The armtube/headshell/cartridge should preferably be in one piece with the least amount of connections that can loosen, rattle or reflect sound.

About the damage: you are right there: here is where my Dynavector Karat 17D excels. 



clayton sf said:


> That's what I've been hearing. What were they thinking?
> Tell me, if you had around $500 which would be the turntable would you buy? I've been thinking that myself. The first serious turntable I bought was the Technics SL-1200MK2 for $330, new from Amazon in 2009. I only played it for a few months then boxed it back up and stored it away.



Have you ever thought about upgrading your phono-amp? This makes a big difference too if you go from entry-level (<$100) to halfway decent >$300. My upgrade from Musical Fidelity X-LP to my recent Jolida JD9 (mod) took me to a whole different level.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





maverickmonk said:


> Just got my NAD 533 (Rega P 2). Loving it, and spinning some Nirvana


 
   
  Nice looking table. Curiously, are the specks in the vinyl disc part of a design pattern, or simply part of the pressing process?


----------



## Maverickmonk

Neither, they're dust. The vinyl was translucent, so it bounced the flash up and magnified the dust present. (3 cats, there's no end to the dust)


----------



## Silent One

No Carbon brush?


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> Thanks for the info.
> Then I will most definitely use the Denon DL-103R cartridge on the Technics.


 
  That is an "easy" , but good and proven way out. If you are more adventorous soul - Grado Signature 8MR (or any of the Grado low output "quasy MC" models ) is not affected, as well as Technics' own low impedance carts - EPC 205IIL ands EPC 100C series ( in either half inch, integrated headshell or p-mount versions through all 4 marks ). EPC205CIIL can take stylus from JICO with boron cantilever and SAS ( Micro Line/etc) diamond - and does not cost an arm and a leg.Should you score some EPC 300 or EPC 305 MCs ( the higher the mark, the better ) - and they are not too expensive for you, grab them - no such things available anywhere else.
   
  Grado might be picking some hum with 1200 - Technics carts will be quiet. 
   
  All these low impedance MMs require higher gain than usual MMs, as they average about 1,5 mV vs usual 5 or so mV for MMs. Should be no problem with decent phono stage.


----------



## Clayton SF

^ Wow. Thank you, analogsurviver: This is very helpful. I'm saving this info.
  It's like you've given me a brand new turntable. Or at least given it a new lease on life.
  Thanks a million mV ...


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





]eep said:


> Although that is not what immediately catches my eye. The 'engelse drop' does. It says 'english licorice' but you betcha its Dutch alright. Watch it, it's addictive.
> About the question where I get those vinyl-rips; just type "vinyl-rip flac 24 bit/192" in google and you get plenty of leads.
> I'm not saying the 1200 is bad, just that is is made for a different purpose with different needs. And the arm is IMO a weak point for best hifi-reproduction, just like the lack of platter mass/material matching. I don't really care HOW you get the wheel spinning (DD/idler/belt) as long as it has plenty of inertia and mass (and matching shear modulus and density to the vinyl) to absorb vibrations from needle/groove contact. The armtube/headshell/cartridge should preferably be in one piece with the least amount of connections that can loosen, rattle or reflect sound.
> About the damage: you are right there: here is where my Dynavector Karat 17D excels.
> Have you ever thought about upgrading your phono-amp? This makes a big difference too if you go from entry-level (<$100) to halfway decent >$300. My upgrade from Musical Fidelity X-LP to my recent Jolida JD9 (mod) took me to a whole different level.


 
  Yes, 17D is about as good as it gets regarding demage "playing" - it can handle frequency response past 250 kHz ( NOT a misprint/typo - in words two hundred fifty thousand hertz ) without going berserk in the process, as most other cartridges ( to be exact - cantilevers ) do.
   
  I apologize if I posted this one before, if I have not, here it is : http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm 1200 got kinda adopted by DJs and adapted to their needs, it did start life as pure audiophile deck - here it is reversed to its origins and much improved along the way..
   
  An EPA 100 or even better, EPA 100 MK2 arm, although violating your desiderata as much as the poor relative on 1200, still smokes , correctly adjusted, almost anything out there.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> ^ Wow. Thank you, analogsurviver: This is very helpful. I'm saving this info.
> It's like you've given me a brand new turntable. Or at least given it a new lease on life.
> Thanks a million mV ...


 
  You welcome, Clayton SF ! I have found that correct matching can ressurect many "old to be replaced/written off" equipment - lots of times is new gear with which people replace the old actually inferiour - heyday / peak of vynil was end 70s/begin 80s and not so few vynil related components from the era are still the best ever made. Funds better to be used for records or record cleaning machine - the most significant upgrade analog vynil user can make to the system.
   
  I cracked at those million mV... GOOD one !


----------



## Maverickmonk

Quote: 





silent one said:


> No Carbon brush?


 
   
  Actually I prefer velvet. I gave it a once over, started to play it, and ended up doing it again after I saw how much I missed!


----------



## grokit

I have animals as well, and that is why I originally invested in the 16.5. And why I would never invest in a turntable without an integrated, hinged dustcover.
   
  My pet peeve is when certain manufacturers want you to spend hundreds of dollars on an "optional" dustcover. My response is that there are better "options" out there!


----------



## Maverickmonk

The NAD comes with a dustcover, but it doesnt stay up on its own. As a result I end up taking it off when I'm playing and putting it back when I'm done. Some sort of modding is in order.
   
   
  The 16.5 is nice, but unfortunately is far beyond my means. I'm contemplating making my own record cleaner this year though, now that you've planted the idea in my head. (what have you done, lol)
   
  Edit: Stole my sis's Cannon T3i. It's been a while since I've played with an SLR, so its still not the greatest pic:


----------



## ]eep

analogsurviver said:


> lots of times is new gear with which people replace the old actually inferiour - heyday / peak of vynil was end 70s/begin 80s and not so few vynil related components from the era are still the best ever made.



Not really my experience... the best equipment is made now, cartridges, arms, tables and amps. Fewer but better parts. Techology doesn't stand still. It comes at a price though. Nowadays tolerances are tighter, materials are better, computer simulation of structures, CNC machining... In the 'hayday' manufacturers were thinking quantity. Since there is no more quantity al there is left is quality to stand out in the crowd. And in the 90's quality was still progressing until analog was really on the way down (exept for firms like VPI, Rega, Linn and several smaller German manufacturers). Then it slowed down until about 5 years ago. 

Not convinced? 
London Decca Reference Cartridge
van den Hul Grasshopper
Soundsmith Strain Gauge SG-200
Funk firm FX-R
clearaudio Master Innovation
Just a few examples. 
And read the start of this story about the start of Wilson Benesch.


----------



## Skylab

Modern TT's may be better at the high end, but I firmly believe, from direct experience, that for under about $600 or so, your money buys you a MUCH better vintage TT than you can get from any modern TT in that price range. I paid $550 for a Denon DP-59L which is only very slightly eclipsed by my VPI Scoutmaster, and the Denon absolutely SMOKES entry level Music Hall, Pro-Ject, and Rega TT's (by direct comparison, but of course IMO).


----------



## Clayton SF

^ I've just begun to realize this big time and need to check this out further! I've got to dig deeper into my attic!


----------



## MorbidToaster

grokit said:


> I have animals as well, and that is why I originally invested in the 16.5. And why I would never invest in a turntable without an integrated, hinged dustcover.
> 
> My pet peeve is when certain manufacturers want you to spend hundreds of dollars on an "optional" dustcover. My response is that there are better "options" out there!




See I dislike integrated covers, but having one is a must. I just think the 'optional' ones should be included.

Also, just to chime in on my thoughts as of late...Really getting interested in owning a Well Tempered table. Cueing is soooo smooth and easy.


----------



## Silent One

My 1977 Sony PS-X5 ain't afraid to throw-it-down with any modern entry level TT! 




   
  Just returned home with a Pre-Owned Music Hall mmf-7. 
   
  - Goldring Eroica 'H' Cart
  - Upgraded Cardas wiring in tonearm 
  - Needs a new belt


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





]eep said:


> Not really my experience... the best equipment is made now, cartridges, arms, tables and amps. Fewer but better parts. Techology doesn't stand still. It comes at a price though. Nowadays tolerances are tighter, materials are better, computer simulation of structures, CNC machining... In the 'hayday' manufacturers were thinking quantity. Since there is no more quantity al there is left is quality to stand out in the crowd. And in the 90's quality was still progressing until analog was really on the way down (exept for firms like VPI, Rega, Linn and several smaller German manufacturers). Then it slowed down until about 5 years ago.
> Not convinced?
> London Decca Reference Cartridge
> van den Hul Grasshopper
> ...


 
  To a certain point, you are right. But no one is capable ( or allowed to, due to ecological reasons ) of producing  absolute pinnacle achievements sold under Technics brand in early 80s - boron tube structures like conical hollow tube cantilever with conical thickness of the wall on small scale - or tonearm tube/pipe out of boron on the large scale. Old venerable Grasshopper is more from that era than today - sure, it has evolved over the decades, but its roots go back to EMT XSD/TSD15 - the same or similar can be said about Decca, but this one did make really meaningful progress and its predecessors can not hold candle to it. I agree Funk Firm does breathe fresh wind in analog, just as Pink Triangle, its predecessor, did. I am vaguely familiar with Wilson Benesch - mainly through the cartridges, that used to be OEMs for him by Benz Micro Switzerland, where I briefly worked back in the day. Unfortunately, never saw or heard his table and arm, that should firmly confirm your claims. One of true pushers of the analog performance envelope. I thank you for the link. Soundsmith Strain Gauge I never heard, but certainly agree it is a step in the right direction offering now what has been to a lesser degree available back then. There were amplitude characteristic phono cartridges available back in the day. I consider, for example, Funk Firm's products more breaktrough in thinking than Soundsmith's. Best used in concert, of course. Clear Audio I respect far more for its recent innovations in pick up arms and to a lesser degree in turntables than for its cartridges.
   
  Cruel fact : effective mass for the world's lightest stylus structure, Technics EPC P100CMK4 is 0.055 mg. Anything you might be capable of purchasing from the current production, regardless of price, will be 0.15 mg or thereabouts, normally exceedeing 0.2 mg. That is to say, the hayday top cartridge ( it still is ) was roughly three to four times more capable of responding to sudden accelerations in the groove than any current cartridge is capable of doing. The specified frequency response of said cart is 120 kHz . This  is why clever manufacturers, aware of these facts, will not publish the effective stylus tip mass or at least try to be as discrete about it as possible in the specification sheet.
   
  NOTHING you can do about it today. And if you think that any of the sub 0.15 mg effective stylus tip mass Technics or Denon carts can be rettipped if you busted the cantilever while still retaining the original performance, you are in for a VERY rude awakening.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





silent one said:


>


 
   
  Very nice, congrats! Cardas wiring don't come easy!
   
  That's a sweet picture disc too btw...


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Modern TT's may be better at the high end, but I firmly believe, from direct experience, that for under about $600 or so, your money buys you a MUCH better vintage TT than you can get from any modern TT in that price range. I paid $550 for a Denon DP-59L which is only very slightly eclipsed by my VPI Scoutmaster, and the Denon absolutely SMOKES entry level Music Hall, Pro-Ject, and Rega TT's (by direct comparison, but of course IMO).


 
  Definitely true. You all must not forget what is now vintage $500 table was TOTL or very close to that level back in the day, costing then great amounts of money. Factor in inflation over the decades and it should be clear even to the non expert why this is so.
   
  Modern day entry level TTs enjoy one great advantage over even TOTL of TOTL vintage designs - finally, low resonance non ringing solutions for the platter start appearing, often at the most basic level possible; manufacturers afraid of getting taken serious if some industry "leftovers" are pressed into shape and machined into TT platter - regardless of the instantly audible improvement over metal forever ringing bells of the past ? But these basic but well implemented designs can not compete with the technicall excellence at every imaginable point of good vintage designs - Denon DP-59L certainly does qualify as such.


----------



## kid vic

Quote: 





blooze said:


> How about a Project Debut III with acrylic platter, speed box, and a Denon DL110 cart for $500?  I think I know where I can get one.


 
  I Have a better idea! Buy the DL110, put it on the 1200mk2 (<--My setup), take the rest of your $500 and either buy a new preamp OR buy HEADPHONES!!!!
  BTW, the Denon plus Technics combo is legendary and now that I have it i completely concur.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





kid vic said:


> I Habe a better idea! Buy the DL110, put it on the 1200mk2 (<--My setup), take the rest of your $500 and either buy a new preamp OR buy HEADPHONES!!!!
> BTW, the Denon plus Technics combo is legendary and now that I have it i completely concur.


 
  +1. Just add some good mat, an Achromat should go a long way towards even better SQ.
   
  And I will publish "a blast from the past" that although did not otriginate with me and does not look good or nice, will save you $$$ until you can afford said $$$ for the new, better arm or modification to the basic 1200 design.
   
  For about 5 $ or so of cost of materials - with plenty leftover you can use for your other or friend's decks.


----------



## grokit

I got a "_[size=small][size=10.0pt]Reso-Mat[/size][/size]_" for my SL1200, because one of the criticisms of that turntable is they really overdamped it:
   
_[size=small][size=10.0pt]Enter the Reso-Mat. The idea with this mat is to have absolutely no influence on the record. It sits on cones with minimal contact with no clamping. Vibrations from the stylus are free to dissipate in the open air with no reflections. There is nothing to dampen the record either.[/size][/size]_
   
  I would agree that for most TTs the Achromat is an excellent upgrade. But the SL1200 is a different beast, and for it I like the [size=small][size=10.0pt]Reso-Mat[/size][/size]:
   

  http://www.ebay.com/itm/RESO-MAT-TURNTABLE-PLATTER-MAT-FOR-TECHNICS-SL1200-GARRARD-401-/180921911246?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables&hash=item2a1fc947ce
   
  For my "uneven" records I use my DL-103 with a more forgiving cartridge and a traditional clamp. I'll probably invest in a Achromat at some point for that TT.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I got a "_[size=small][size=10.0pt]Reso-Mat[/size][/size]_" for my SL1200 ...
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/RESO-MAT-TURNTABLE-PLATTER-MAT-FOR-TECHNICS-SL1200-GARRARD-401-/180921911246?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables&hash=item2a1fc947ce


 
   
  Very nice and thank you for that link. And to think mine is stored away. I am going to drag it out as soon as I disassemble the Pro-Ject Xperience. I've been reading lots of nice things about the SL1200 lately.


----------



## ]eep

analogsurviver said:


> Cruel fact : effective mass for the world's lightest stylus structure, Technics EPC P100CMK4 is 0.055 mg. Anything you might be capable of purchasing from the current production, regardless of price, will be 0.15 mg or thereabouts, normally exceedeing 0.2 mg. That is to say, the hayday top cartridge ( it still is ) was roughly three to four times more capable of responding to sudden accelerations in the groove than any current cartridge is capable of doing. The specified frequency response of said cart is 120 kHz . This  is why clever manufacturers, aware of these facts, will not publish the effective stylus tip mass or at least try to be as discrete about it as possible in the specification sheet.
> 
> NOTHING you can do about it today. And if you think that any of the sub 0.15 mg effective stylus tip mass Technics or Denon carts can be rettipped if you busted the cantilever while still retaining the original performance, you are in for a VERY rude awakening.



I bet the Decca is faster... 
Stylus mass is not all there is to it. If your cantilever is light it is mostly less stiff too, thus you are loosing energy and lowering the resonance frequency! It acts as a suspension on higher frequencies with lesser damping. So you are losing high frequencies except for a ringing on the resonance frequency which is probably dangerously close to the audible range.
I don't think there is any comparison to a short diamond (or ruby, sapphire) cantilever. Or not use a cantilever altogether like the Decca's. And then there's the rest of the system picking up the magnetic field variations. 

Ever seen this Denon 103R? I wouldn't mind giving that a try.



skylab said:


> Modern TT's may be better at the high end, but I firmly believe, from direct experience, that for under about $600 or so, your money buys you a MUCH better vintage TT than you can get from any modern TT in that price range. I paid $550 for a Denon DP-59L which is only very slightly eclipsed by my VPI Scoutmaster, and the Denon absolutely SMOKES entry level Music Hall, Pro-Ject, and Rega TT's (by direct comparison, but of course IMO).



That is an unfair and stupid comparison (no disrespect). You are comparing retail prices to 2ndH/vintage/yardsale prices. Vintage turntables in good condition are rare and mostly overpriced.
I bought my Cardas modified Pro-ject Perspective (incl Kiseki cart) 5y ago for €425 and now my Clearaudio Performance+Satisfy arm for €1000. You are not going to better that with 'vintage' - ergo, mostly used up junk- which is glorified (and thus overpriced) by stories on the internet by nostalgic people, oldtimer fans and peddlers. This really irritates me just like those 2ndH smoked-up and buffed-up tube peddlers on several trading sites. 

In my country there is a firm restoring Thorens TT's like the TD124. Totally revised and restored they sell for €2500 up to €4000. Just for reference :rolleyes:



grokit said:


> I got a "_[SIZE=10pt]Reso-Mat[/SIZE]_" for my SL1200, because one of the criticisms of that turntable is they really overdamped it:
> 
> _[SIZE=10pt]Enter the Reso-Mat. The idea with this mat is to have absolutely no influence on the record. It sits on cones with minimal contact with no clamping. Vibrations from the stylus are free to dissipate in the open air with no reflections. There is nothing to dampen the record either.[/SIZE]_
> 
> I would agree that for most TTs the Achromat is an excellent upgrade. But the SL1200 is a different beast, and for it I like the [SIZE=10pt]Reso-Mat[/SIZE]:



So, effectively it does just the same as a felt mat? Isolating ringing in the LP alone. I think an acromat is a better option (but much more expensive). There is no sensible substitute for a massive platter.


----------



## Skylab

] eep" url="/t/549616/post-a-photograph-of-your-turntable/1140#post_9004836 said:
			
		

> That is an unfair and stupid comparison (no disrespect). You are comparing retail prices to 2ndH/vintage/yardsale prices. Vintage turntables in good condition are rare and mostly overpriced.
> I bought my Cardas modified Pro-ject Perspective (incl Kiseki cart) 5y ago for €425 and now my Clearaudio Performance+Satisfy arm for €1000. You are not going to better that with 'vintage' - ergo, mostly used up junk- which is glorified (and thus overpriced) by stories on the internet by nostalgic people, oldtimer fans and peddlers. This really irritates me just like those 2ndH smoked-up and buffed-up tube peddlers on several trading sites.
> In my country there is a firm restoring Thorens TT's like the TD124. Totally revised and restored they sell for €2500 up to €4000. Just for reference :rolleyes:
> So, effectively it does just the same as a felt mat? Isolating ringing in the LP alone. I think an acromat is a better option (but much more expensive). There is no sensible substitute for a massive platter.




Your calling my post "stupid" is absolutely disrespectful, regardless of your qualifier. I'm sorry you have some odd emotional hang up on this topic, but please refrain from being so rude. Disagree with me all you want, but please be polite about it. 

And it doesn't take much research to see that it is simply untrue that "vintage turntables in good condition are rare and mosly overpriced". They are not even close to rare. There are TONS of them. The only thing many of them require is a new cartridge, and the knowledge of how to set them up properly.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





skylab said:


> And it doesn't take much research to see that it is simply untrue that "vintage turntables in good condition are rare and mosly overpriced". They are not even close to rare. There are TONS of them. The only thing many of them require is a new cartridge, and the knowledge of how to set them up properly.


 
   
  Talk about TONS. You're absolutely right about that. I've seen a few in incredible condition just sitting around. Okay, maybe they needed a spot of lube and a belt change but they are everywhere. I know an ex-coworker that owns a TT that uses infrared light to find the tracks. It has a linear arm and she has ample replacement cartridges she bough on a whim 25 years ago. She plays it once in a while. I bought the same one but threw it out in 1988 when I moved. (Banging head against the wall.)


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





> eep]
> 
> 
> That is an unfair and stupid comparison (no disrespect). You are comparing retail prices to 2ndH/vintage/yardsale prices. Vintage turntables in good condition are rare and mostly overpriced.
> ...


 
   
  What exactly is your knowledge of used vintage TTs?  Unless you think Denons and other similar TTs are junk, your statement is false.  Also, how many budget (<$500) TTs have you auditioned?  I assume a lot in order for you to make an informed comparison with vintage tables.  I recently purchased a Denon DL-62 in mint condition for $520.  I installed a cartridge and it sounds great.  I know since I also own a VPI Scoutmaster for comparison.  Imagine how good it would sound if I really knew has to tweak all the settings.  Your rude comment may reflect your experience but my experience has been very different.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





]eep said:


> I bet the Decca is faster...
> Stylus mass is not all there is to it. If your cantilever is light it is mostly less stiff too, thus you are loosing energy and lowering the resonance frequency! It acts as a suspension on higher frequencies with lesser damping. So you are losing high frequencies except for a ringing on the resonance frequency which is probably dangerously close to the audible range.
> I don't think there is any comparison to a short diamond (or ruby, sapphire) cantilever. Or not use a cantilever altogether like the Decca's. And then there's the rest of the system picking up the magnetic field variations.
> 
> ...


 
  Decca is an interesting beast - but limited by relatively high mass. You weould loose the bet. You can not use so tiny diamonds with this design as you can on cantilevers - there must be some reasonable surface for the "rope" to hang on. One look on square wave observed on an oscilloscope reproduced off test disc by 100CMK4 or anything else is all that it takes. It sounds approaching like - nothing.
   
  Deccas tend to be rather sample to sample dependant, and they at times go berserk for no appearent reason. But I would not mind having one well behaved sample. This design will always remain a love/hate affair and under no circumstances I would choose it if that was the only cartridge. Divine when right, nightmare when even the slighest thing goes wrong.
   
  That Denon has a sapphire rod for cantilever. Usually, they are very good - the last one I remember fondly is ADC Astrion. 
   
  I will post a pic of "vintage used up junk" cartridge to tone down a bit your tone - proving that once there was a broader range of designs/prices that went beyond range that is available today. But I would  agree that reliability is now better than in the old days.
   
  Regarding Achromat - have yet to try it myself, and might skip it altogether going to Achroplat. Skeptical regarding its extremely low mass and moment of inertia - but reports of it giving great bass keep coming from all places.
   
  The effectiveness of any LP support can be measured - and I suspect here Achroplat might well be the winner, even against really massive platters.
   
  There is one material that tops them all for turntables, but it is now rare, expensive, in the process of being outlawed ( if not already ) - and above all, health hazard/poisonues : mercury.


----------



## ]eep

Like I said, I mean no disrespect. Even the smartest ppl can make dumb remarks. If you are offended by a word maybe if I rephrase my statement in my native tongue (or German or French) you would understand me better? I'm sorry if I don't catch your sensitivity on the word 'stupid' but it was a modifier on the statement, not your person.
Maybe my experience in the field of 'vintage' is dependent on locality. I don't shop on Audiogon etc. The 2ndH sites I check is only frequented by 'enthousiasts', 'audiophiles' or however you want to call it and there is 1 in 10 really vintage stuff that is worth mentioning > €500. An old Micro Seiki, an old Stax, a fully modified TD160, 2 Technics SL12x0 and that's it. Or if you count a broken Beogram... Yhe bulk of what I see on the regular 2ndH is all junk (>25y at the level of <$250 then). Maybe it all depends on how you look at the world on what catches your attention. 

The hifi show I was at last fall had plenty of TT's. Almost every exibitor had one or more. One was specialised in old Thorens's and the price was accordingly. The shop where I buy most of my vinyl introduced a new complete recordplayer for €600 that looked and sounded really good (similar to a Pro-ject Xperience in all perspex with a Ortofon Red cart, level, dustcover and a puck).

There's no way you are going to best that with a 'vintage' TT. Not to mention the regular 2y warranty. There is a lot going on in Europe in the field of vinyl playback and prices are quite different over here. Let me sum up some manufacturers:
UK:
Michell Engineering
Funk Firm
Rega
Linn
Origin Live
Audio Note
Audiomods
Avid
EAT
Loricraft
Lumley
Nottingham Analogue
SME
Decca London
Well Tempered
Roksan
townshend
Wilson Benesch

Germany (+Sw):
Audolabor
Clearaudio
DPS
Transrotor
Dr Feickert
Brinkmann
Dual
Thorens
Marantz
Goldmund
Sheu
Lenco
Pluto Audio
Phonoshophie

And a bit further away to the east:
Kuzma
Pro-ject
and some more French and Italian. And I'm not even counting cartridges... Even the Chinese are chiming in with Opera Audio and Hanns (I seriously considered buying one of those, what am I saying, I own a Opera T988 arm)!
My point is: there's plenty development going on here. The USA is not the center of the world you know.





> I will post a pic of "vintage used up junk" cartridge



Well, I just bought a Decca Blue... It's as good as new and 40y old. But it's a very... -shall I say quirky?- cart. It really needs a different body than the cheap red plastic/tin can it is now.


----------



## Skylab

There was nothing dumb about my remark. You simply didn't agree with it. Sorry to tell you, that doesn't make it dumb  In fact, you seemed to miss the point, which was precisely that you can get what was a very high quality turntable decades ago, in the height of turntable production, for the same or less than an entry level TT costs new today. The cheap turntables from the 70's/80's tended to be thrown out, and the ones that remain can often be purchased for $20 or so. But those I wouldn't recommend, really.

There may well be a much larger availability of good vintage turntables in the USA than in Western Europe. I wouldn't be able to comment on that. But here in the US, finding good condition, good sounding vintage turntables is incredibly easy. It does, as I mentioned, require knowing how to align a cartridge to be an effective buying strategy, however.


----------



## Clayton SF

Okay, my apartment is a mess but I've found some old 80s music (found?) in my collection. I've been listening to classical and classic rock for so long that I just thought I'd dig into the 100 or some odd LPs that I've forgotten about. This LP is so clean that I must have only played it only twice. Okay. The music is, well... I like it then.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





]eep said:


> Like I said, I mean no disrespect. Even the smartest ppl can make dumb remarks. If you are offended by a word maybe if I rephrase my statement in my native tongue (or German or French) you would understand me better? I'm sorry if I don't catch your sensitivity on the word 'stupid' but it was a modifier on the statement, not your person.
> Maybe my experience in the field of 'vintage' is dependent on locality. I don't shop on Audiogon etc. The 2ndH sites I check is only frequented by 'enthousiasts', 'audiophiles' or however you want to call it and there is 1 in 10 really vintage stuff that is worth mentioning > €500. An old Micro Seiki, an old Stax, a fully modified TD160, 2 Technics SL12x0 and that's it. Or if you count a broken Beogram... Maybe it all depends on how you look at the world on what catches your attention.
> The hifi show I was at last fall had plenty of TT's. Almost every exibitor had one or more. One was specialised in old Thorens's and the price was accordingly. The shop where I buy most of my vinyl introduced a new complete recordplayer for €600 that looked and sounded really good (similar to a Pro-ject Xperience in all perspex with a Ortofon Red cart, level, dustcover and a puck).
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thats funny, my 27 year old Pioneer PL-707 has better wow and flutter and signal:noise specifications than the ProJect Xperience...


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





]eep said:


> So, effectively it does just the same as a felt mat? Isolating ringing in the LP alone. I think an acromat is a better option (but much more expensive). There is no sensible substitute for a massive platter.


 
   
  If a felt mat is better than both rubber and the Achromat, then perhaps. But it's impossible to say, as mat effectiveness seems to be highly turntable-dependent. It goes against conventional wisdom, but there is an ongoing debate regarding whether it best to closely couple your record with a heavy platter and clamp/weight it down, or virtually suspend it in thin air.
   

   
  There are many discussions comparing the Reso-mat and the Achromat:
   
  "Try a TransFi Reso-Mat - it knocked my old Funk Achromat for 6 in terms of sound quality"
   
  "We did a mat comparison on my Pioneer PL-71 (sad folk that we are!).
 Pioneer rubber-ribbed mat, Funk Achromat & Reso-mat.
 Surprisingly, not much difference betwixt the Pioneer rubber job and the Achromat.
 But we both felt that the Reso-mat was superior, and not by a small margin."
   
  "Well, I thought the Funk Achromat was well and truly stuck to my platter so I had no choice but to use it as described.
 However ... judicious and careful use of a screwdriver and off pops the Achromat! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... I'm currently having a first listen to the Reso-mat straight on to the platter, as recommended by the manufacturer .... even cleaner, less bloom to the sound, better focus, more explicit.
 No doubt about it - the Reso-mat has been a substantial upgrade for my LP playback system."
   
  Much more here:
   
  http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=116165
  http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?s=95f4871e03923c8deadae743bedca470&t=14600
  http://www.trans-fi.com/resomat.htm


----------



## Skylab

palmfish said:


> Thats funny, my 27 year old Pioneer PL-707 has better wow and flutter and signal:noise specifications than the ProJect Xperience...




And you can buy a Pioneer 707 for less than that Pro-Ject 

Nice TT, that 707. I like the higher end Pioneer DD TT's a lot. I have a PL-570 that sounds absolutely terrific. My Denon DP-59L is just a little better, but I like them both a lot. The better Japanese DD decks from the 70's and 80's are outstanding TT's.


----------



## Redcarmoose

Wow, were reaching close to 71K views on this thread. This thread has far surpassed any expectations I had when creating it. Love seeing photographs of turntables. As always, any table owned by a person is special. These photographs end up being sentimental almost like pictures of a pet dog, or loved one.
   

 _*This thread also ended up being a reserve of lost and current information and wisdom regarding turntable purchase and implementation.*_
   
   
   
  Thank-you all for your wonderful posts. I wish I could contribute more but my skills are limited even after owning tables from the early 1970s on. This thread has become a grand resource and special place at Head-Fi. Be grateful for this.
   
   
*Thank-you all!*
   
   
  Happy new-year!


----------



## Clayton SF

THANK YOU, Redcarmoose!!!
  Happy, happy, New Year.


----------



## Silent One

Thanks, Redcarmooose! Both this thread and Skylab's "TURNTABLE SETUP Questions thread..." have been of tremendous help. I was minding my digital derriere when the posts turning up in these two threads really rekindled things for me.


----------



## basman

Old skul music from old skul record, played on old skul record player and heard from old skul cans with old skul chocolates = happy new year eargasm!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





]eep said:


> Like I said, I mean no disrespect. Even the smartest ppl can make dumb remarks. If you are offended by a word maybe if I rephrase my statement in my native tongue (or German or French) you would understand me better? I'm sorry if I don't catch your sensitivity on the word 'stupid' but it was a modifier on the statement, not your person.
> Maybe my experience in the field of 'vintage' is dependent on locality. I don't shop on Audiogon etc. The 2ndH sites I check is only frequented by 'enthousiasts', 'audiophiles' or however you want to call it and there is 1 in 10 really vintage stuff that is worth mentioning > €500. An old Micro Seiki, an old Stax, a fully modified TD160, 2 Technics SL12x0 and that's it. Or if you count a broken Beogram... Yhe bulk of what I see on the regular 2ndH is all junk (>25y at the level of <$250 then). Maybe it all depends on how you look at the world on what catches your attention.
> The hifi show I was at last fall had plenty of TT's. Almost every exibitor had one or more. One was specialised in old Thorens's and the price was accordingly. The shop where I buy most of my vinyl introduced a new complete recordplayer for €600 that looked and sounded really good (similar to a Pro-ject Xperience in all perspex with a Ortofon Red cart, level, dustcover and a puck).
> 
> ...


 
  No problem. I know how it is with "translations".
   
  Thought that Well Tempered is/was an US firm - no hijacking it to UK needed.
   
  I am from "bit further to the east"
   
  http://www.google.si/imgres?q=on+the+sunny+side+of+the+alps&hl=sl&sa=X&tbo=d&biw=1137&bih=527&tbm=isch&tbnid=7B8URJmUfsEeDM:&imgrefurl=http://www.docstoc.com/docs/125843601/Slovenia---on-the-Sunny-Side-of-Alps&docid=wlTITmSvkgv9vM&itg=1&imgurl=http://img.docstoccdn.com/thumb/orig/125843601.png&w=1500&h=1125&ei=JNrhUN2jI8zptQberoHABg
   
  and know Mr. Franc Kuzma personally.  "On the Sunny Side of the Alps" was approx 25 year old slogan for Slovenia, mostly meant for tourist purposes. For the world, I could not find it on the web  anymore - and posted the nearest approximation.
   
  Most certainly do not think USA is the centre of the world either. There are people with good ideas everywhere. Currently, it does seem there is more development in analog going on in Europe than in USA. The best TT, or more precisely put record playing system that I am familiar with, does however come from the  USA - John Bicht's Versa Dynamics 2.3 . It will eat anything else mentioned in this thread before breakfast ...at a price to match its performance. By now, you could include it in "vintage" category, except an odd zero ( or two , depending on circumstances ) at the end of the price you mentioned is in order.
   
  I could not agree regarding old Decca housings with you more - could hardly be worse.
   
  There were things in analog back then that are still unsurpassed today. Rare, expensive, still competitive. Like Nakamichi turntables, Stax phono cartridges, EMT studio TTs that sound great ( at a cost...) - and there were other less expensive, but gem nonetheles items.


----------



## Audio Addict

I took this with my cell phone so sorry about the quality.


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





audio addict said:


> I took this with my cell phone so sorry about the quality.


 
   
   
   
  Ooooohhhh!  LURVE that!  That is one gorgeous table!  I am really envious!


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





audio addict said:


> I took this with my cell phone so sorry about the quality.


 
   
  When I click on the vid it says that the video is private...


----------



## Audio Addict

Quote: 





nelamvr6 said:


> When I click on the vid it says that the video is private...


 
   
  Thanks for letting me know.  It was the first video I have uploaded to youtube.  Changed it to Public.


----------



## basman

audio addict said:


> I took this with my cell phone so sorry about the quality.




Awesome!


----------



## MorbidToaster

Oh man. How has nobody commented on how awesome a song he used? Win.


----------



## Clayton SF

OMG. Thanks for the video. All of Canada must know your music!


----------



## Audio Addict

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> OMG. Thanks for the video. All of Canada must know your music!


 
   
  My brother gave me the 180 gram version for my birthday and this was the first time I played it.  It did sound much better through the speaker system than the cellphone mic.


----------



## MorbidToaster

One of my favorite bands of all time. Just great stuff.


----------



## Greyson

Happy late-night New Years' listening!


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





greyson said:


> Happy late-night New Years' listening!


 
   
  Nice nice nice.


----------



## basman

Loud N' Late


----------



## Hi-Five

I've been lurking long enough so here's a few phone shots of my table.  Ran a humble 1200-M3D for many years, but this is my first belt-drive TT.  Still keep a pair of 1200's around for the dirty LPs and mixing for fun.
   
  Hi-Five


----------



## Wasatch

Rega P5


----------



## Skylab

Beautiful Classic, Hi-five!


----------



## MorbidToaster

I noticed the Decware first. lol
   
  What the heck is spinning there?
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Beautiful Classic, Hi-five!


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





hi-five said:


> I've been lurking long enough so here's a few phone shots of my table.  Ran a humble 1200-M3D for many years, but this is my first belt-drive TT.  Still keep a pair of 1200's around for the dirty LPs and mixing for fun.
> 
> Hi-Five


 
   
   
  Awesome!
   
  I have that same cart on my Scoutmaster, that is, if that's the low output model. How do you like it?


----------



## Hi-Five

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Beautiful Classic, Hi-five!


 
  Thanks Skylab, I love this table more and more every day.  Only about two months old so far.
   
  Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I noticed the Decware first. lol
> 
> What the heck is spinning there?


 
  Heh, yeah I need to take a better shot of the Decware 'trio for the Decware thread.
  The LP is "periphery" by "the seven fields of aphelion" (ambient / electronic), i like the neon splatter on clear vinyl!
  Quote: 





nelamvr6 said:


> Awesome!
> 
> I have that same cart on my Scoutmaster, that is, if that's the low output model. How do you like it?


 
  I love this cart!  It's the High Output version as I had all MM or HOMC with my Technics.  I haven't auditioned other carts on the Classic as it takes a while to dial it all in, but I'm hoping to scrape up the cash to get a 2nd armtube at some point for easy swaps.  I don't know if it is the wholesale upgrade from my 1200 to the Classic or the cartridge change (AT150MLX to DV20X2), but the low end really came into the picture.  The 20X2 seems to have a little less sparkle than the AT150 did, but this is all from memory and not a direct compare.  All in all I like the Dynavector very, very much and find it to be a well-balanced fit for my setup.  Any occasional groove distortion is long gone with the 10" tonearm of the VPI too!


----------



## MorbidToaster

Sounds like my kind of music, actually. Might check it out.
   
  Quote: 





hi-five said:


> Thanks Skylab, I love this table more and more every day.  Only about two months old so far.
> 
> Heh, yeah I need to take a better shot of the Decware 'trio for the Decware thread.
> 
> *The LP is "periphery" by "the seven fields of aphelion" (ambient / electronic), i like the neon splatter on clear vinyl!*


----------



## Paul Graham

Quote: 





greyson said:


> Happy late-night New Years' listening!


 
  Very nice pic and setup.
  May I ask what that Sony seperate is underneath???
  And Do I see Wood side panels?


----------



## Eee Pee

High five, Hi-Five, that's nice!


----------



## Greyson

Quote: 





paul graham said:


> Very nice pic and setup.
> May I ask what that Sony seperate is underneath???
> And Do I see Wood side panels?


 

 Thanks. It's a mid-90's GX909ES reciever. Their ES gear (Sony's top-of-the-line for that era) featured rosewood side panels. It took me several months to find a nice one, and I plan to hang on to it until I have the money (and space) to move to a full seperates system.


----------



## Wasatch

Let's try again:


----------



## Wasatch

This place sucks for posting pics.


----------



## Wasatch

Rega P5


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





greyson said:


>


 
   
  Nice ensemble. I really like the record bin as well.


----------



## Hi-Five

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Nice ensemble. I really like the record bin as well.


 

 +1, that's a nice touch.  I've been looking for something like that for my "on-deck" records.


----------



## Greyson

It's made by a company called Glorious located in Germany, making it a bit tricky to get here in the states. The feet came from a busted ES amp, the standard unit does not have them. 
   
  There is also this option, made by "AtomNation" and located in the U.S, though the design is taller and more expensive.
   
  http://lpbin.com/bine.html


----------



## Hi-Five

Thanks for the info Greyson, that's great!
   
  Very nice Technics BTW.  Is that a 1210?  I still have three 1200-M3D's that serve me well after many years.  I think my favorite cart on that deck is the Audio Technica AT150MLX, how does the Ortofon pair?
   
  Here are my dual 1200's (sorry for bad phone pic) with American DJ (Ortofon) Banana cartridges for mixing, Denon DL110 and DL160 for no-cue mixing or casual listening.
   

   
   
  My other 1200 is my KAB modded former main deck, now relegated to bedroom duty.  Added the Isonoe footers, fluid damper and rewired the tonearm with Cardas cable to good effect.
   
  I won't stop until I have a table in every room...maybe a Playskool portable for the kitchen?


----------



## calipilot227

Once my wallet recovers, I may pick up an SL-1200 to see what the hype is all about. Prices look like they've started to drop again, finally. I had one direct-drive deck, the Pioneer PL-518, but I found the rumble to be too much.


----------



## Skylab

The better Denon DD TT's are good choices for ultra-quiet. DP-57M, 59L, 60L, 62L, and 72L are outstanding decks.


----------



## Hi-Five

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The better Denon DD TT's are good choices for ultra-quiet. DP-57M, 59L, 60L, 62L, and 72L are outstanding decks.


 

 I've always wanted one of these decks but wondered about the performance, the looks of Denon decks are top notch IMO.  Might have to start checking around a little bit, d'oh!


----------



## Greyson

Yeah, it's a 1210-Mk2. I rather like the Ortofon Red, i'm using an Ortofon headshell too. I went through a few carts before settling on this one, and i'm quite pleased with its performance. I think the Blue would be a very marginal upgrade even though there's a lot of users who like that model, but personally, you'd have to step up to a Brown or Black to really do better than the Red.
   
  As for the prices on these, there have always been deals to find, but don't expect to get a new one unless you want to pay a substantial premium.


----------



## Eee Pee

New Avid table coming out real soon, if not already.  The Ingenium.
   
  Under $2k with two arms.


----------



## p a t r i c k

A couple of pics of my Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference turntable.
   

   
   
   

   
  The more observant of you will notice...   ...there is no arm 
   
  This is because I am preparing it for sale on eBay and will sell it without arm.
   
  In fact I have used two arms with this turntable, originally the SME 2009 Series II and later SME 2009 Series III.
   
  This is the second of these turntables owned by me. The first one I purchased in the late 70s. In the 80s I sold that but found myself missing it, so I purchased this one second-hand in the late 80s. In fact I think this particular turntable was made in or around 1973.
   
  I have listened to a vast amount of music on this turntable over the years however I stopped using it in about 2003/4 because I listen to CDs entirely after that time.
   
  The greatest thing about this turntable is the speed consistency.
   
  I think that to get good sound from records, first you must have the record spinning at the right speed.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> A couple of pics of my Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference turntable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Hydraulic Ref is a perhaps the most ingeniously made-to-run-at-correct-speed deck in history. It has many flaws/drawbacks when compared to recent decks - but speed stability is hard to equal, let alone beat with practically any other deck in existance. Before you do not-so-clever- thing for the second time, please reconsider - a Transcriptors fitted with http://www.ebay.de/itm/SRM-TECH-UNIVERSAL-ACRYLIC-PLATTER-TRANSCRIPTORS-/330850848423?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d083f4ea7 and any decent arm ( if you are a true Transcriptors fan, I suggest the Focus Arm ). By getting rid of the 9 dot point LP support and getting a full surface acrylic LP  support with the platter from link you can have the unmistakable looks of a Transcriptors and performance of more modern decks united. Add 4 Sorbothane supports to its feet to improve somewhat poor feedback and  you get a very decent sounding TT visually almost unchanged from the original. It will not outplay top decks of today, but will hold its own against any.  Seeing that platter spinning and the strobe of the hydraulic speed adjustment lit from the below through hydraulic fluid with that orange bulb is one of my lasting memories of the truly classic HIFI since my teens. There is nothing out there that can compare to that hydraulic speed adjustment - simple, ingenious, precisely executed, built to last - flawless.
   
  Doubt if I could bring myself to selling it if I ever possesed one. There are many better bangs for the buck out there, yet Hydraulic will always have its unique appeal.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Hydraulic Ref is a perhaps the most ingeniously made-to-run-at-correct-speed deck in history. It has many flaws/drawbacks when compared to recent decks - but speed stability is hard to equal, let alone beat with practically any other deck in existance. Before you do not-so-clever- thing for the second time, please reconsider - a Transcriptors fitted with http://www.ebay.de/itm/SRM-TECH-UNIVERSAL-ACRYLIC-PLATTER-TRANSCRIPTORS-/330850848423?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d083f4ea7 and any decent arm ( if you are a true Transcriptors fan, I suggest the Focus Arm ). By getting rid of the 9 dot point LP support and getting a full surface acrylic LP  support with the platter from link you can have the unmistakable looks of a Transcriptors and performance of more modern decks united. Add 4 Sorbothane supports to its feet to improve somewhat poor feedback and  you get a very decent sounding TT visually almost unchanged from the original. It will not outplay top decks of today, but will hold its own against any.  Seeing that platter spinning and the strobe of the hydraulic speed adjustment lit from the below through hydraulic fluid with that orange bulb is one of my lasting memories of the truly classic HIFI since my teens. There is nothing out there that can compare to that hydraulic speed adjustment - simple, ingenious, precisely executed, built to last - flawless.
> 
> Doubt if I could bring myself to selling it if I ever possesed one. There are many better bangs for the buck out there, yet Hydraulic will always have its unique appeal.


 
   
  Thank you for your comments analogsurviver
   
  I will add for the benefit of anyone that is considering using one of these turntables that if you use an acrylic mat with this turntable you will encounter a problem in that the spindle for the hole in the middle of the record will no longer protrude. In fact Michell engineering used to make extended spindles and I had one, I may still have it in fact. For a period I used a glass mat with this turntable (glass mats were de rigueur before acrylic became the thing) but to be honest I prefer the sound of the turntable without any mat.
   
  There can be a problem with very thin records. LPs in the 80s were often very thin indeed. The solution is simple. You keep one very thin 80s record you don't like to be used as a mat. Then when you wish to play one of the very thin 80s records you do like, you put the one you don't like on the turntable first and then the one you wish to play on top of that  This tip is also useful on any turntableif you have set VTA for quite thick LPs and then you wish to play a very thin LP.
   
  I remember the focus arm but I have my doubts as to whether it will easily go on the Hydraulic Reference turntable. That arm was designed for the Michell Focus turntable and the arm pillar is not very high, the Hydraulic Ref platter is very high and needs an arm with a lengthy pillar. In fact the SME arms require use of risers to lift the plate up.
   
  Transcriptors did make an arm for the turntable at the time which was the Hydraulic Arm. It wasn't Hydraulic however  Like the Focus arm this was a unipivot but structurally rather weak. With any of those Transcriptor or Michell arms of that time they must be used with very high compliance moving magnet cartridges.
   
  There arm I think works best on this turntable is indeed the SME 3009 and personally I prefer the (much maligned) Series III over the Series II, however with the Series III a high compliance moving magnet cartridge must be used. I used an Ortofon in the later years and I like it very much indeed. The cartridge I used in the late 70s was the Shure V15 III, but personally I preferred the Ortofons I used later.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> Thank you for your comments analogsurviver
> 
> I will add for the benefit of anyone that is considering using one of these turntables that if you use an acrylic mat with this turntable you will encounter a problem in that the spindle for the hole in the middle of the record will no longer protrude. In fact Michell engineering used to make extended spindles and I had one, I may still have it in fact. For a period I used a glass mat with this turntable (glass mats were de rigueur before acrylic became the thing) but to be honest I prefer the sound of the turntable without any mat.
> 
> ...


 
  Thank you *patrick* for sharing the experience. I believe it should prove very useful for any present or future prospective users of Transcriptors turntables.
   
  Regarding mat link - they offer extension spindles with the purchase of the mat (please see description in link ) for a very reasonable price.
   
  SME III is perhaps the most maligned arm in history - it appeared right at the MC moving coil cartridge boom and admittedly did not and does not perform as well with low compliance MCs quite as well as its rivals meant specifically for the low compliance carts. It is one of the most adaptable/adjustable arms around.  It is unbelievably resonance free for such a light structure - it is THE lightest effective mass pick up with standard 9 inch effective lenght in the world. It went to the practicaL extreme - allowing to balance a phono cartridge of ZERO mass - just in case any manufacturer would come up with anything really approaching it. The standard production lowest cartridge mass in widespread use is Ortofon OM (Super) series with 2.3 gram mass without its additional weight/mass - an OM40 Super on SME III is a divine sounding combo provided it is adjusted correctly - and, most importantly, is still available new.
   
  With judicious use of its counterweight system, one can appreciably increase its effective mass for use with low(er) compliance cartridges -
  do not be fooled into thinking it can not be made sounding at least acceptable with these. Still, I would not advise using extremely low compliance carts with it. But when a truly high class good MM comes along, there is very few arms that can match or exceed it in that context. One excelent that does spring to mind is the original John Bicht designed Mission 774 - IF the 2-3 gram additional effective mass it has over III is NOT a problem ( with high compliance carts and usual 6-8 gram mass , it usually IS a problem ! ). Should any one get lucky enough to score  a Shure Ultra 500 in good condition, with its high compliance and somewhat porky body - there is hardly a more suitable pivoted arm for it than the SME III.
   
  SME V or, to a slightly lesser degree, SME IV ( along with many others) are better than III with low compliance carts - with high compliance designs, tables turn. Should any one be lucky enough to score an Ortofon MC 2000 in good condition or wealthy enough to get a VdH Colibri XGP with high compliance, SME III should not be left off the shortest list of pick up arm candidates to partner them with.
   
  Both III and 774 should be possible to mount to the Hydraulic without any problems.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> SME III is perhaps the most maligned arm in history - it appeared right at the MC moving coil cartridge boom and admittedly did not and does not perform as well with low compliance MCs quite as well as its rivals meant specifically for the low compliance carts. It is one of the most adaptable/adjustable arms around.  It is unbelievably resonance free for such a light structure - it is THE lightest effective mass pick up with standard 9 inch effective lenght in the world. It went to the practicaL extreme - allowing to balance a phono cartridge of ZERO mass - just in case any manufacturer would come up with anything really approaching it. The standard production lowest cartridge mass in widespread use is Ortofon OM (Super) series with 2.3 gram mass without its additional weight/mass - an OM40 Super on SME III is a divine sounding combo provided it is adjusted correctly - and, most importantly, is still available new.


 
   
  I entirely agree with you about the SME 3009 Series III. When people are putting together turntables I have suggested this arm along with an OM40 as being ideal.
   
  I remember well when the SME 3009 Series III arrived on the market. It seemed extremely exotic and I remember thinking, surely nobody would pay the price for that arm. However after a year I bought one myself 
   
  The 3009 Series III fulfilled the ideal at the time of low mass, adjustability and low resonance (as you have described). However the wind changed very rapidly, and high compliance moving magnet cartridges were out and low compliance moving coils were in.
   
  As you mention the 3009 III is not good with low compliance cartridges at all. It can be adjusted to accommodate, but a much more rigid arm is required for these.
   
  I will add a few things to your comments.
   
  Using the 3009 III with the Ortofon greatly reduces the influence of the mat on the sound. With a high compliance cartridge the signal waves in the sides of the grooves in the record can move it around with much less force required and so there is consequently reduced energy coming back into the record.
   
  It is the use of moving coil low compliance cartridges which, I think, has led to the changes in turntable design since the days of the Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference.
   
  Transcriptors themselves were, of course great advocates of moving magnet high compliance cartridges and David Gammon warned against the use of moving coil cartridges with his designs.
   
  David Gammon went on to design several turntables after the Hydraulic Reference.
   
  The best design for use today, I believe, is the Transcriptor Skeleton. Used with the 3009 Series III and the Ortofon this is really a superb turntable.
   
  Transcriptors sold an arm for use with the Skeleton called the "Vestigal Arm" which had the bearings for vertical axis movement behind the headshell. This was only to be used with the very highest compliance cartridges and you would set it to extremely low tracking weights, such as 0.1 grammes or less.
   
  The other significant turntable was the Transcriptor Transcriber which was also built around the use of high compliance MM cartridges. This turntable was a parallel tracker in which the platter moved and the "arm" stayed still, attached to the lid of the turntable.
   
  The Transcriber was the last turntable built by Transcriptors, personally I think that they were finished off by the change in fashion away from high compliance cartridges towards moving coils. Moving coil cartridges were very much the "go to" thing, and you could not use them with Transcriptor turntables.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> I entirely agree with you about the SME 3009 Series III. When people are putting together turntables I have suggested this arm along with an OM40 as being ideal.
> 
> I remember well when the SME 3009 Series III arrived on the market. It seemed extremely exotic and I remember thinking, surely nobody would pay the price for that arm. However after a year I bought one myself
> 
> ...


 
  Could not agree with you more. But now there is much more to the continuing saga about David Gammon designed turntables.
   
  I have long term experience with any Transcriptors of David Gammon design, save Saturn ( not so important ) and Transcriber ( VERY important, but unfortunately impractical to use in the same room with speakers if its superb SQ is to be maintained  - no reservations for use with headphones). I curse the day I decided to get rid of the rarest of them all, the Round Table. The world's ONLY actually round turntable, initially meant as an entry level Transcriptors, but due to its now ultra extreme rare status ( due to limited run of 300 or so pcs ) stratospherically priced, if and when it does appear for sale. 
   
  I am a long time (ab)user of the Vestigal pick up arm - since 1977 ( what a relief after SME 3009 Series 2 ! ) After a hiatus for about 10 years ( you have guessed it, due to MCs ...), I currently I own 1 1/2 samples ! One probably most modded Vestigal in existance graces my working turntable, along 3 other arms mounted to it. Sorry, no pics, it is work in progress and I doubt any pics will ever be released of this one - only the results of these developments when they see the light of day as commercially available products. The other 1/2 of Vestigal came rather recently from Canada - the moving part only, that is to say everything that is not a part of the base that gets fastened to the turntable. Will be used to make yet better sounding platform for MCs, as original base can not take mechanical output of low compliance carts,
   
  Vestigal CAN be made to sing with MCs - quite well actually. NOT unmodified. Of MC carts that are still available and are high(ish) compliance, in ascending order of price and performance : Denon DL304, Denon DLS1, Van den Hul Colibri XGP high compliance version. Wish I could somehow lure 
  a single Colibri into my system - it is simply too much $$$ !
   
  Vestigal was the star of http://www.theanalogdept.com/images/spp6_pics/TT_Design/MechanicalResonances.pdf It outperformed any other arm in this seminal survey to the scary degree. This design has so much going for it that its numerous idyiosincrasies and not exactly stellar build quality simply have to be taken into account. I believe that its true time has not yet even begun - so ahead of its time and far reaching was its design, that very  few could really understand the " curious spelling " of its designer in the original brochure ( which is safely in my archive ). At the time - or up to now. Due to the vertical bearing/geometry, it REQUIRES PERFECTLY FLAT RECORDS. Period. Not because it could not track a warped record - it is perhaps THE best pivoted arm for warped records, but due to the change in vertical tracking angle, to a lesser degree azimuth, and, above all, Doppler distortion due to vertical bearing geometry, which results in wow/changing pitch whenever transversing the warp. It is horrible with super stylus tips available today, such as Van den Hul or Micro Line , both of which ill tolerate any geometrical discrepancy from the ideal. The only real way to do it with Vestigal is with the use of a turntable with vacuum disc stabilizer - or the use of the Audio Technica AT666EX Vacuum Disc Stabilizer on modified Skeleton. The use of the record ring weight(s) that flatten the LP against the platter without the requirement for vacuum is most probably impossible because of the fact that Vestigal is also horizontally shorter than 9" and its unusual arrangement(s) migh well interfere with such ring(s) - besides, bearing in mind the arm's fragility, the prospect of having to manipulate the heavy ring in the close proximity of by now so rare arm with every change of a side of an LP is simply too daunting a prospect.
   
  Reading - and re-reading the above B&K paper - particularly beetween the lines - will reveal the true greatness of the Vestigal design.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I think we need a new 'Longwindus Supremus' label.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I think we need a new 'Longwindus Supremus' label.


 
   
  It is all great stuff Mr. Toaster


----------



## Spriggs

Thorens TT will upload pics of the rest of my tt later


----------



## calipilot227

Always great to see a TD-124 in active service!


----------



## TheCameraman

Here's my wonderful Dual 1229
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




It's rocking a Shure V15 Type III cartridge outfitted with a JICO SAS stylus. This turntable comes with a pretty cool scroe story, don't know if you folks would like to hear it though.


----------



## dminches

Sweet!


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





thecameraman said:


> Here's my wonderful Dual 1229
> 
> It's rocking a Shure V15 Type III cartridge outfitted with a JICO SAS stylus. *This turntable comes with a pretty cool scroe story, don't know if you folks would like to hear it though.*


 
   
  Yes...yes, I would. And I'll bring my own tea.


----------



## DavidK

I have a Dual 1209 with the same problem.  It's a low-level fast heartbeat sound.  No idea where it is coming from.  This TT is my 4th player, so I don't pay much attention to it.  It's not a very good turntable, the tracking is very marginal
   
  The loud static sound when the system is idle could be a temporary oxide buildup on one of the connections due to bad solder joint, where the problem goes away when the system plays, the electrical current burning off the oxide.  You can fix this by gently reflowing the solder connections by heating them to where they are soft.  Consult with someone with welding experience. 
   
  Live long and prosper


----------



## calipilot227

This just in...



Ortofon 2M Blue. Goodbye horrendous inner-groove distortion! 



Edit: No problems with pitch stability or the speed running fast. With this particular example, the two Rega myths have been debunked. It also seems to do a much better job of handling footfalls than my suspended-chassis TD-145 did...


----------



## Silent One

calipilot227, your pix make me wanna just drop work; leave work_ and_ _speed toward the listening room. _


----------



## Paul Graham

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> This just in...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Love it! 
   
  After many years away from a vinyl setup, I just bought an RP3. It has no tonearm at the moment, 
  But I'll be fitting a RB300 with 2M &/or Grado cart.
  It'll be finished off with some Copper Widow RCA's from Frank.
   
  Can't wait to get it up and running!!


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Poting my setup because I'm so proud of it


----------



## ProcessJunkie

Sweet table and damping setup you got there, Paul. Can i ask you where do you get it? (the damping)


----------



## Paul Graham

Thats Calipilot's Not mine dude 
  I havent even got my tonearm for my P3 yet lol...


----------



## nelamvr6

Have you guys seen this from VPI yet?


----------



## Skylab

WHOA!!! Did they intro that at CES?


----------



## dminches

Wow. That is a beaut.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





processjunkie said:


> Sweet table and damping setup you got there, Paul. Can i ask you where do you get it? (the damping)


 
   
  I made the isolation platform myself. I used two 1" sheets of MDF, with Sorbothane isolation pods between. You can get them here:
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/1in-1-HEMISPHERE-Genuine-Sorbothane-4-x-25mm-ISOLATION-PODS-DOMES-FEET-HI-FI-/370583503248?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item56487f8190
   
  Sitting on top of a hifi rack (on a springy wooden floor), I have no audible problems with acoustic feedback or footfalls. My Thorens TD-145 would skip whenever anyone would walk near it, even with the platform.


----------



## Eee Pee

VPI is promoting their DIY parts page on Facebook using that picture.


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> VPI is promoting their DIY parts page on Facebook using that picture.


 
   
   
  It appears you're correct.  Man, if I could put something together that looked like that, I'd be sorely tempted to try to do it.  As it is, I'm all thumbs...


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'd looooove to get something like that in cherry to match my new Harbeths.


----------



## ProcessJunkie

Quote: 





paul graham said:


> Thats Calipilot's Not mine dude
> I havent even got my tonearm for my P3 yet lol...


 
  Oh, damn. That's what you get by staying up so late. You stop making sense, lol


----------



## Paul Graham

Here's a few not so good shots of my 1210, 1200's and one of my SL-BD22's from around 6 years ago.
  Its all in storage at the moment but I still have it all.
   
  Please excuse the ****ty paint and silly poster. 
  I was younger and yeh whatever lol...
   
  The hi-fi stack was when I had JUST started getting back into audio again -


----------



## calipilot227

Once your Planar 3 is up and running, you could do a comparison between it and the Tech 12. Would be great to hear an honest opinion from someone who owns both.


----------



## Paul Graham

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Once your Planar 3 is up and running, you could do a comparison between it and the Tech 12. Would be great to hear an honest opinion from someone who owns both.


 
   
  Yeh I can do that 
  Plus having doubles of nearly all my carts I can 
  run the same on both turntables.


----------



## mark_h

There's a Kenwood Trio L-07D on ebay UK currently. I am sorely tempted but I cant see the price staying anwyhere near what it is now!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Once your Planar 3 is up and running, you could do a comparison between it and the Tech 12. Would be great to hear an honest opinion from someone who owns both.


 
  No idea regarding Regas, but for Technics 1200/1210 is next to impossible to say how it sounds. I have serviced a few lately and although they were all OK when they left, it is really alarming in what condition they came in. DJ abuse obviously can not be positive, but I found some VERY (ab)used DJ decks to be in almost perfect condition as far as tonearm bearings are concerned, whereas some home babied decks in pristine cosmetic shape had tons of free play in arm bearings and sounded really poor prior to bearing re-adjustment. 1200/1210 is an extremely advanced/complicated product where there are lots of adjustments that can go wrong - despite the fact that this was mass produced design of relatively low price, tolerances should have been better/tighter. Lots of criticism 1200/1210 gets from audiophiles for bad sound is in fact not criticism of the design itself, but more likely insufficient quality control, arm bearings in particular. Arm manufacturers tend to leave some free play in bearings - because PRECISE adjustment is time consuming and therefore expensive, and if one must choose between a sloppy but freely moving bearing and one that is too tight and tends to lock at one point or another the free moving is of course better - it kinda "works", too tight does not. None of the two conditions will have the correct sound quality.
   
  Because 1200/1210, if it is assembled/adjusted as it should have been, is really not bad. Any belt driven deck can only dream about the speed stability of 1200. It can be modified into super audiophile deck, but the costs are anything but incosiderable - the mods can outstrip the value of the donor deck many times over. It is a sort of Sleeping Beauty in audiophile world. Unfortunately direct drive can not be inexpensive if it is to sound good.
  So at lower price spectrum, a well designed belt drive will have the sonical edge - it is in the middle and high price sector where direct drive in my opinion did not yet say the last word.
   
  One also has to be careful regarding cartridges to pair with DD - just at the innermost grooves, cart can pick up hum and other electrical noise from the DD motor - so if you ever get tempted enough to invest heavily in 1200/1210, chek it with the intended cartridge first - to prevent unnecessary disapointment later.


----------



## calipilot227

Valid points, although isn't some small degree of speed variation unavoidable with DC servo motors? (e.g. Constantly undershooting and overshooting the target speed, which manifests itself as a peak in the 3-4 kHz region?)
   
  Anyway, before this becomes another belt drive vs. direct drive debate (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), I was just curious regarding an objective P3/SL1200 comparison. Back to the pics!


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Once your Planar 3 is up and running, you could do a comparison between it and the Tech 12. Would be great to hear an honest opinion from someone who owns both.


 
   
  FWIW, I had a P3/24 and a Tech 1200 in the house at the same time. Using a Denon DL-110 on both, I preferred the P3/24 for its musicality and richness, though the 1200 was no slouch either.
   
  Oddly, I sold the P3 and still have the 1200 in my living room speaker rig. It's indestructible nature makes it perfect for when drunk house guests decide they want to put on a record...


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Valid points, although isn't some small degree of speed variation unavoidable with DC servo motors? (e.g. Constantly undershooting and overshooting the target speed, which manifests itself as a peak in the 3-4 kHz region?)
> 
> Anyway, before this becomes another belt drive vs. direct drive debate (
> 
> ...


 
  Well, I certainly do not want another belt vs direct vs minituarized Martians drive vs etc debate. The sound of 4 recent 1200/1210s was so over the map
  that would hardly be attributable to the same design. Compared to a normally functioning Rega, you would get 4 totally different impressions. After "refurbishing", they all performed as they should. 
   
  1200/1210 was the cheapest DD one could take seriously. At the other extreme is Rockport Sirius - wish I could at least spend a longish listening session with it once. I do not think all of its overengineering is absolutely necessary for a decent DD deck, but some are. DD can not be built in a garage ( there are exceptions to this rule ) as easily as belt drive - but I guess something between 1200 and Sirius should be good enough and not cost an arm and a leg.
   
  One of my next posts will be pic - something so old I could not find a pic online, only found its sucessors.


----------



## dscythe

My incredibly low-fi handmedown technics turntable with some recent purchases


----------



## Paul Graham

Quote: 





dscythe said:


> My incredibly low-fi handmedown technics turntable with some recent purchases


 
  Another SL-BD owner...
  Not a bad way to start dude, Which model is it?


----------



## dscythe

Quote: 





paul graham said:


> Another SL-BD owner...
> Not a bad way to start dude, Which model is it?


 
  sl-bd24 haha


----------



## Destroysall

Quote: 





greyson said:


> Thanks. It's a mid-90's GX909ES reciever. Their ES gear (Sony's top-of-the-line for that era) featured rosewood side panels. It took me several months to find a nice one, and I plan to hang on to it until I have the money (and space) to move to a full seperates system.


 
  Greyson, that is magnificent and simple little system. If I may, are you using loudspeakers? If so, which ones?
   
  I don't have a vinyl setup, but I've been itching for one for awhile now.
   
  Destroysall


----------



## MorbidToaster

Gonna get myself a few of those little LP bins pretty soon. Sick of trying to find what I want in an Expedit unit.


----------



## kid vic

Quote: 





paul graham said:


> Here's a few not so good shots of my 1210, 1200's and one of my SL-BD22's from around 6 years ago.
> Its all in storage at the moment but I still have it all.
> 
> Please excuse the ****ty paint and silly poster.
> ...


 
   
  Nice, a follow DJ! Though your a lot more into it then I am right now.


----------



## ]eep

morbidtoaster said:


> Gonna get myself a few of those little LP bins pretty soon. Sick of trying to find what I want in an Expedit unit.



Thats why they invented the alphabet. 
Ikea expedit rules for lp's.


----------



## MorbidToaster

] eep" url="/t/549616/post-a-photograph-of-your-turntable/1230#post_9069280 said:
			
		

> Thats why they invented the alphabet.
> Ikea expedit rules for lp's.




To an extent I agree, but I still love the 'record store' flipping bins like that. They can also be a 'new stuff' bin in my house.


----------



## Wasatch

Quote: 





]eep said:


> Thats why they invented the alphabet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yup, excellent for the price.


----------



## Paul Graham

Quote: 





kid vic said:


> Nice, a follow DJ! Though your a lot more into it then I am right now.


 
   
  Haha cheers bud, 
  I havent spun for around 3 & 1/2 years as Im living at my parents whilst in between homes, So the decks & other gear not in the photo is all in storage 
  currently. 
  However when we do move, I plan to size down, So I'll be selling my Denon CDJ's, Power amps, the Vestax mixer in the pic ( Pcv 175 ) & some of my DJ cans.
   
  Then I'll be running two 1210's ( need to get a second 1210m3d - its the black one in the pic ), my Vestax PMC 25 with rotary upgrade ( replaces the sliders )
  in a custom built unit. I'll be getting a set of Yamaha HS80M studio monitors & my ibook running Torq ( DVS )
  And I'll probably get a second set of HD25's specifically for my DJ setup.
   
  The two 1200mk2's will be refurbished inside and out with a new lick of paint, Then I'll sell them on too.
   
  all the money I get from my DJ gear sales will fund my audiophile side of things as I still don't have half the gear I want/need & being a carer, Wonga is tight lol!


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

This is my baby, an SL-1500 that spent 80% of it's life in the box until I bought it for $275. Yes that is kind of much for this model but the condition is what made it that price


----------



## ProcessJunkie

Quote: 





blackenedplague said:


> This is my baby, an SL-1500 that spent 80% of it's life in the box until I bought it for $275. Yes that is kind of much for this model but the condition is what made it that price


 
   
  You lucky dog.


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Yeah for the price I couldn't have gotten anything better
   
  Hey what kind of mods could I do to it? Or should I not tamper? 
   

   
  This would be awesome to have, since good analog cables DO make a difference. Do the technics table's tonearms use DIN connectors?


----------



## Paul Graham

I dont know if its the same or less complicated for the SL1500, 
  However to give you an idea of what it involves on an SL1210/1200 - 
   

   
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/how-to-rewire-a-technics-sl-1200-tonearm.148792/


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





paul graham said:


> I dont know if its the same or less complicated for the SL1500,
> However to give you an idea of what it involves on an SL1210/1200 -
> 
> 
> ...


 
  WOAHHHHHHHHHHHH no. I meant just the RCA cables haha


----------



## Paul Graham

Quote: 





blackenedplague said:


> WOAHHHHHHHHHHHH no. I meant just the RCA cables haha


 
  To change the rca cables those two wires red/white. theyre the ones you need to swap out.
  Sorry I should have explained it better.


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Oh okay lol


----------



## calipilot227

That looks very easy, actually. Much easier than a Thorens TD-145 tonearm... *shudders*


----------



## soulflower

This is my current setup (see avatar pic as Insert Image isn't working for me), Michell Gyrodek with Benz Ace into Diablo then X-Cans as a pre-amp and Alecto power amps. I like.


----------



## gib48189

Greeting All,
   
  Just ran accross the site, looks great!!
   
  I thought I would post a pic of my Transcriber, pulled it out of the box a bit ago.  Been in storage for close to 25 years, thinking of getting back into service.  I can't seem to be able to post any pictures, but here are a few links.  If anyone wants to post them directly, feel free.
   
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...iber/166-c.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...er/160-c_2.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...iber/163-c.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...iber/165-c.jpg


----------



## dscythe

Quote: 





gib48189 said:


> Greeting All,
> 
> Just ran accross the site, looks great!!
> 
> ...


 
  that thing looks incredible!


----------



## gib48189

Yeah, when it is set-up, certainly starts alot of conversations.  I still have my old Rotel amp that I ran it through, I think I will clean up the dust and get it hooked up next weekend.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





gib48189 said:


> Yeah, when it is set-up, certainly starts alot of conversations.  I still have my old Rotel amp that I ran it through, I think I will clean up the dust and get it hooked up next weekend.


 
  The link to these photos IS already in this thread - posted by me a couple of weeks ago. The only significant Transcriptors I do not have experience with. Particularly of interest is sensitivity to both structural and airborne feedback. Due to the fact the whole platter (approx 4kg ) is moving for required 11 cm or so, it can not be suspended on springs - the most one can do today is to use big Sorbothane feet and possibly some vibration control support devices. Arm is mounted to he lid with which it also raises and lowers - being coupled to almost half a square metre area "microphone" certainly must have its toll. Does not matter when listening with headphones, could be problematic with speakers. But would really like to hear your experience.
   
  Arm is perhaps the lowest effective mass ever in commercially available product, requiring very high compliance cartridges/styli. Take good care of your Ortofon stylus, at the tracking force and inertia of Transcriber arm it should be still OK and suspension of Ortofon age really well. But I suggest getting a replacement stylus , if you can source it, ASAP. It would have to be NOS, Ortofon still has VMS 20EMKII stylus listed, but you should be able to get if for slightly less. A bit better cart would be Ortofon M20E Super, but you would have to hunt for the cart - all important high compliance stylus is still available. Please note you definitely want M20E Super (elliptical, very high compliance ), not M20FL Super ( Fine Line profile, medium compliance ). Cartridge for the two is the same - but do not think a M20E Super stylus would fit your cart. Ortofon on purpose made seemingly same carts not compatible like the later OM or 2M series, where you can mix and match bodies and styli from lowest to highest quality / price, but in FF, VMS and M Super lines that are superficially the same this does not work.


----------



## gib48189

Had to do some searching, did find your post.  The links you posted were from the last time I pulled it out of the box, same ones I used here.  I never did anything with it at that time, just put it back on the shelf.  I think I will hook it up this weekend, have about 500 alblums that have not been out of their sleves for at least the same 25 years or so that the Transcriber has been in the box.
   
  Sorry to re-post the links, just thought it would be interesting for folks to see.  I'll post back when I get it hooked up and give it a listen.


----------



## Paul Graham

Well my RP3 just arrived in one piece.
  Needs a good polish mind lol so excuse the smudge marks please.
  Still waiting on the belt & original arm for now, But
  Will be getting the RB300 eventually.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





gib48189 said:


> Had to do some searching, did find your post.  The links you posted were from the last time I pulled it out of the box, same ones I used here.  I never did anything with it at that time, just put it back on the shelf.  I think I will hook it up this weekend, have about 500 alblums that have not been out of their sleves for at least the same 25 years or so that the Transcriber has been in the box.
> 
> Sorry to re-post the links, just thought it would be interesting for folks to see.  I'll post back when I get it hooked up and give it a listen.


 
  No apologies needed, any vinyl user welcome, the one using a Transcriber especially so. Please share your impressions on this significant turntable - it was the first practical commercially available linear tracking turntable in history and to this day remains the most unique deck of them all.
   
  One thing that can significantly improve the sound of any Transcriptors deck with the platter that supports the record in only 8 or 9 points is the addition of this 0.3 mm thick carbon fibre mat:
   
  http://www.ebay.de/itm/Black-Diamond-CARBON-LP-MAT-die-ultimative-MAT-/360567489099?pt=Plattenspieler&hash=item53f37f424b#ht_1089wt_932
   
  This mat is specially important for the Transcriber, as it (to my knowledge at least ) does not allow for VTA adjustment and any other thicker mat would significtly alter VTA with so short an arm, wrecking havovc with the sound. I use this mat on other TTs, but have not tried it yet with any Transcriptors. Just did the "three finger test", where an old ( fingerprinted etc )  LP has been supported by three fingers of one hand and LP's rim being flickered by the fingrernail of the other hand - listening with ear closely to the LP, one can easily hear resonance(s) going on in the vinyl disc. Repeating the same test with the above mentioned mat between the fingers and LP produced a much more satisfying sound close to dead thud - should be about the greatest improvement to the sound of the Transcriber without resorting to radical modifications, which should be avoided in so rare and collectible piece of audio history.
   
  Here the YT vidz on Transcriber: for once, camera sound capturing the platter motor noise in "fast forward, fast rewind" mode is preferrable to the actual sound from the table ( output rom the RIIA phono preamp ) for demonstrtive purpose:
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ_r0Vk9Ct8
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qORTH_QaKs
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8SmGua7Zxg
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbAROj46e-0
   
  Really looking forward to your impressions once you put it into action after  quarter of the century!


----------



## analogsurviver

To those who were asking regarding linear arm tracking drive motor audibility in Technics SL linear tracking series, here is the best possible answer:
   
  http://www.p-mount.net/


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





paul graham said:


> Well my RP3 just arrived in one piece.
> Needs a good polish mind lol so excuse the smudge marks please.
> Still waiting on the belt & original arm for now, But
> Will be getting the RB300 eventually.


 
  Great news! To ease your waiting for the the arm etc tro arrive, you can polish its lid.
   
  Wash it first with dish hand washing liquid. Depending on depth of the scratches, you can start with a rather abrasive toothpaste ( whitening ), followed by gentle toothpaste for children, followed finally by paste they sell to polish scratched cell phone displays or CDs ( basically the same thing ). It is possible to bring it to almost like new condition - given enough patience.


----------



## Paul Graham

Thankyou for the tips


----------



## gib48189

analogsurviver said:


> No apologies needed, any vinyl user welcome, the one using a Transcriber especially so. Please share your impressions on this significant turntable - it was the first practical commercially available linear tracking turntable in history and to this day remains the most unique deck of them all.
> 
> One thing that can significantly improve the sound of any Transcriptors deck with the platter that supports the record in only 8 or 9 points is the addition of this 0.3 mm thick carbon fibre mat:
> 
> ...



Thanks for the YT links. It is interesting to see 3 variations of the Transciber. One with a gold platter, one with the audio cables hooked through a connector, and one like the model I have. Silver platter and the audio cables passed through the bottom plate. I did take a look at the Ortofon site, the stylus is on back order or thry no longer have it in stock.


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

I'd like to know what you people think of this


----------



## MorbidToaster

I think this guy is a dick...and somewhat right. I'll always recommend a nice used table (I actually wish I'd kept my PL518) over most new ones at the (general) price point he was looking at. 
   
  This is also going to cause people to say 'Yeah well I judge by listening not by numbers'.
   
  The other thing to consider (since he feels the need to mention it all the time) is that these specs are also ~30 years old. Who's to say things haven't just gotten more accurate?
   
  Either way, the Technics 1200s are impressive tables. 
   
  Quote: 





blackenedplague said:


> I'd like to know what you people think of this


----------



## Destroysall

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I think this guy is a dick...and somewhat right. I'll always recommend a nice used table (I actually wish I'd kept my PL518) over most new ones at the (general) price point he was looking at.
> 
> This is also going to cause people to say 'Yeah well I judge by listening not by numbers'.
> 
> ...


 

 You mention the old Pioneer PL-518... I have always wondered if old vintage turntables were worth it? Especially considering that these tables were made when most audio equipment was geared solely for audio purposes (i.e. no receivers with video or surround sound support).


----------



## MorbidToaster

I had a perfect PL518 a few months ago and I let it go. It's one of the few things I regret audio wise. At the time I had no LPs and it needed a new cart. I sold it to fund my HD800s...
   
  I really wish I still had it. I think it's a great table. It'd be my choice if I went for a vintage table right now. They can be had fairly cheap in perfect working order.
   
  Quote: 





destroysall said:


> You mention the old Pioneer PL-518... I have always wondered if old vintage turntables were worth it? Especially considering that these tables were made when most audio equipment was geared solely for audio purposes (i.e. no receivers with video or surround sound support).


----------



## Destroysall

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I had a perfect PL518 a few months ago and I let it go. It's one of the few things I regret audio wise. At the time I had no LPs and it needed a new cart. I sold it to fund my HD800s...
> 
> I really wish I still had it. I think it's a great table. It'd be my choice if I went for a vintage table right now. They can be had fairly cheap in perfect working order.


 

 Did a quick search on the PL518 and many who owned it, including you, regret selling it. Makes me want one. Might be a good way for me to enter into the vinyl world.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





destroysall said:


> You mention the old Pioneer PL-518... I have always wondered if old vintage turntables were worth it? Especially considering that these tables were made when most audio equipment was geared solely for audio purposes (i.e. no receivers with video or surround sound support).


 
   
  Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I had a perfect PL518 a few months ago and I let it go. It's one of the few things I regret audio wise. At the time I had no LPs and it needed a new cart. I sold it to fund my HD800s...
> 
> I really wish I still had it. I think it's a great table. It'd be my choice if I went for a vintage table right now. They can be had fairly cheap in perfect working order.


 
   
  I have bought an sold two 518's. Another one recently fell into my lap, and I'm going to hold onto it. It definitely makes a good second table, if nothing else. Hard to go wrong with one of these. The one I currently own is in the best physical condition of the three, but all three were mechanically sound. There's really not a whole lot that can break on those tables.
   
  Prices have regrettably risen with demand, but you should still be able to get one in good shape under $200. At that price, it's definitely worth it.
   
  That said, my Rega P2 beats it hands down, but at more than twice the price, it had better!


----------



## Destroysall

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Prices have regrettably risen with demand, but you should still be able to get one in good shape under $200. At that price, it's definitely worth it.


 
  That's it, I will definitely keep an eye out for this turntable. Thanks guys!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





blackenedplague said:


> I'd like to know what you people think of this


 
   
   
  Quote: 





blackenedplague said:


> I'd like to know what you people think of this


 
  Well, although the author of this video certainly did prove his point, he either is not aware of the methods used by Technics and others in the 70/80s to arrive at such great looking numbers - or is not aware of the currentr policy in specification for say Thorens - or was actually knowingly trying to mislead. 
   
  The point is simple - you can not put wow and flutter in a single number, no matter which perfectly specified standard you might chose to describe it. You can not specify the wow and flutter of any turntable in isolation - you only can specify it as record player, in conjunction with the actual pick up arm and cartridge. How these affect performance of even the nonexistant perfect turntable, you can read here http://www.theanalogdept.com/images/spp6_pics/TT_Design/MechanicalResonances.pdf I KNOW i POSTED THIS LINK SEVERAL TIMES ALREADY, BUT IT REALLY DOES SHOW tHE oRIGINAL sIN OF VINYL PLAYBACK. You have three arms, three cartridges, 9 combinations, and you get 9 different measured performances for the same turntable ! That is why modern day manufacturers do not spec at all or spec at least one order of magnitude worse than back in the 70s. Because the figures by Pro-Ject are approx right for "average" combination of actual TT/arm/cartridge combo in real life - not the intristic performance of the "revolving disc", which in itself may well be much better.
   
  For the real apprecition of wow, flutter, rumble, you need a spectrum analyzer - for the actual record player combination. Technics did achieve unheard of precision for speed - using optical methods for measuring any devition. No way this can be achieved with real test record - no matter how much care and attention has been put into its production, it must go through usual process - and is most definitely not perfect. One extremely important point when measuring wow and flutter is record centering - if the record is off cener ( do you perhaps own ONE that is not ? ), it will be so much worse than top TT it is supposed to measure as to make it completely useless. That is why Nakamichi designed a TT that can find the true center of any record and adjust its speed TO BE CORRECT EXACTLY AT THE POINT OF STYLUS - which is all that is really needed. Here the YT vidz on Naka TTs.
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5O7ssQB4Y8
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUgOUftRSjk
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlG5bN1jahs
   
  The same/similar limitatios to the test record as for wow & flutter measurements apply for the rumble measurement - a single figure withot specifying the arm and cartridge is meaningless. And the rumble even best vinyl is capable of is about 10-20 dB worse than best turntables are actually capable of - that is why Thorens developed Thorens Rumpelmesskoppler ( Rumble Measuring Probe ) 
   
  http://www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_history.htm
   
  I own and use Rumpelmesskoppler - and believe me, it is not picnic when it confirms there is actually something wrong with the main TT bearing, meaning an expensive replacement is in order. FAR better than ANY test record.
   
  As you can see, there is much more to the real turntable performance that it is possible to squeeze into a single number.


----------



## analogsurviver

I promised to post a picture a while ago - and here it is. I t is a story about a turntable that strayed far away from its home.
  that is absolutely all that is written on it - NOTHING more, even if and when you disassemble the thing.
   
   

   

   
   
  The thing arrived one day through an acquaintance of a friend - couple of years ago. It had a headshell and a cartridge. There was no belt on this TT.
  I thought it was an Acoustic Research 11 - nope. Audio Research, known manufacturer of (tube) audio electronics also did not produce it. The belt required is LARGE - in fact, it is the largest belt possible without actually running on the outside of the platter rim.
   
  I searched far and wide, and finally determined its manufacturer, or better said, its seller : Audio Reflex from Canada. Through many forums, I finally found a picture of something reasonably similar, obviously a later model : http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/115762-ags_audio_reflex_mr_112_turntable/ Even that info of model number etc did not yield any useable info on the belt required - all that was listed as a belt for Audio Reflex turntables was simply too small. Finally, it dawned to me to search for " 285 mm diameter belt" - yes it really is that large diameter on the platter ! - which led me to http://www.donberg.co.uk/warehs/groupab.htm (actually to their outlet in Ireland ) and there I finally got my belt http://www.donberg.co.uk/catalogue/audio_spares/audio_belts/araf_331.html . They were very friendly and supplied very fast - if you need a belt and do not want to pay markup artists that sell most probably similar if not the same belts at much higher prices strictly by make/model without specifying  lenght/diameter , you should perhaps bookmark that link.
   
  I knew it is not over yet, when I received the package with belt(s). My worst fear was confirmed upon mounting the belt and switcing the AR-11 on . It did run too slow. In North America, mains frequency is 60 Hz and in Europe it is 50 Hz - with synchronous motor as fitted to the AR-11, this means pulley change. Which in so old model so far away from its home market means getting someone to make a custom pulley - or scrap the TT. Now I know it is possible to use any PSUs for AC sinchronous motor driven belt drive turntables -  built for North America's 60 Hz mains AND 240 V AC - next to mossion impossible in any commercially available product. Or I could design one from scratch. 
   
  I opted for the most guerilla McGyver approach instead - I simply recalculated the ratios and let approx calculated lenght of PTFE teflon tape ( used for sealing etc ) to wind itself upon the existing pulley. In photo above, you can see the brass original pulley partly covered with multiple turns of the thinnest teflon tape I could find - wound on the pulley diameter for 33 1/3 RPM. Below is the same photo, but belt on the 45 RPM diameter of the pulley :
   
   

   
  Believe it or not, I was able to make the thing run with less than a 0.1 % error in speed at 33 1/3 RPM, and know I can do better than that with this teflon McGyver mod - eventually making it OK both for 33 1/3 and 45 RPM. Granted, not as good as properly machined pulley, but it can be made surprisingly smooth and compared to the vibration inherent in synchronous motor, should not result in appreciably worse performance - once you allow for all the stuff mentioned in my previous post just above.
   
  The greatest downfall of this table is its arm - no antiskating, no VTA, the whole arm pipe swiwel around 10 degrees in the joint with part that carries bearings, etc - but it nevertheless does sound quite decent indeed !  I tried several carts/headshells, and the sheer solidity of the sound, no doubt due to very decent main bearing, made me to start toying with an idea to either mount another decent arm ( difficult without visible change to the plinth ) or just use the platter, main bearing and motor and build a TT from scratch around these parts. Here a shot "below the hood" showing its workings :
   
   

   
  Here the pic of the platter, showing its 285 mm diameter where belt rides :
   
   

   
  Allegedly built by CEC in Japan - hats off, they don't make them that solid anymore !


----------



## ]eep

About the video

I definitely disagree about hem making his point. No, thats not correct. He does make his point but his point is highly irrelevant. I might as well start a half hour rhetoric about the middleages where men were an average of 5' tall. And nowadays it is 6' but they were much better lovers because of the importance of this one aspect of men. (just to be clear I'm talking feet, not inches )

There are so many aspects to turntables and the matter is so complex that it's an insult to measure it all in only just a wow and flutter measurement (longitudinal movement variations) of the platter. Let alone an insult to the readers/viewers intelligence. To me he dust comes across as a smug fan on a crusade. What he is saying has a very sarcastic undertone and his examples are ridiculous. If he would listen to 5 seconds of play on a good turntable ... which is probably never going to happen because then he would have to admit... 
Ok well, MorbidToaster already said it: 





> This is also going to cause people to say 'Yeah well I judge by listening not by numbers'.



But there is so much more to numbers than only W&F is my point. If you don't know what to measure or how to measure or why or how to interpret an weigh your measurements you better not talk but listen.


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Question: Are there significant differences in phono preamps? I have a TCC TC-750 preamp that while nice, I don't think it really gives the oomph in the low-end. Of course maybe it's my speakers 35hz wall.... Anyways what I'm asking is if I were to spend the money on a.... I don't know maybe a Pro-Ject Phono Box or a Music Hall 1.2 MM, will I get a significantly better sound? Right now when I play records they sound good but I'm not blown away. Record collecting currently is just habitual and an investment per se. But I want to ENJOY records as well.
   
  Also, what is the difference between a phono preamp and a phono stage?


----------



## samsquanch

Just showing off my new phono pre.  It's a hagerman bugle that I cased up myself, if you want to see pictures of the internals, read what's going on, and see the back you can look at my post in the diy builds thread:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/85561/post-pics-of-your-builds/8880#post_9088477
   
  I forced myself to finish up this build this week, since with next friday's pay check I'm finally buying an SL1200 mkII, so excited, bring on the blizzards!
   
  Maiden voyage for the pre was Carlos Santana and Mahavishnu John McLaughlin "Love, Devotion, Surrender."  It's sounding pretty good in my room right now.


----------



## calipilot227

Couldn't resist. Pulled the trigger on a glass platter.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





gib48189 said:


> Thanks for the YT links. It is interesting to see 3 variations of the Transciber. One with a gold platter, one with the audio cables hooked through a connector, and one like the model I have. Silver platter and the audio cables passed through the bottom plate. I did take a look at the Ortofon site, the stylus is on back order or thry no longer have it in stock.


 
   
  I always found the Transcriber turntable to be very nice to use. You just hold open the glass lid with the fingers of the right hand and use the button on the control unit on the left to shift the platter along until the stylus is positioned where you want, then gently close the lid. Sound comes out.
   
  I never owned one but they were being manufactured in Ireland when I was living in Ireland and so the Hi Fi shops had them. I did know one guy who owned one and it was lovely


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





blackenedplague said:


> Question: Are there significant differences in phono preamps? I have a TCC TC-750 preamp that while nice, I don't think it really gives the oomph in the low-end. Of course maybe it's my speakers 35hz wall.... Anyways what I'm asking is if I were to spend the money on a.... I don't know maybe a Pro-Ject Phono Box or a Music Hall 1.2 MM, will I get a significantly better sound? Right now when I play records they sound good but I'm not blown away. Record collecting currently is just habitual and an investment per se. But I want to ENJOY records as well.
> 
> Also, what is the difference between a phono preamp and a phono stage?


 
  Although I disagree with any subsonic filtering in phono preamps/stages ( the same thing under two names ), I do realize it is too difficult for most people to get their record player fundamental resonance right in the first place. Manufacturers of far higher quality phono preamps than TCC TC-750 still do it - because if you put together a combination of arm and cartridge with a pronounced and above all underdamped low frequency resonance ( the one around 10 Hz ), there is more chance of possibility to ENJOY reproduction over such setup through preamp with built in subsonic filter than the one that lets you hear it all - be it good or bad. It is the classic case of "prevention is better than cure", yet after it has been proven over decades that only a scant percentage of users of phono equipment is capable of "prevention" - and this is possible with a rather high end equipment in the first place - the "cure" ( sub sonic filtering - the missing oomph in bass as you put it ) is still better than no action at all.
   
  Frankly, if you expect the solidity of bass from your phono comparable or equal to digital, it can be approached - but the precision in main TT bearings,
  arm bearings, cartridge, phono preamp etc, which is capable of equaling digital, generally is $$$ .


----------



## wullymc

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Although I disagree with any subsonic filtering in phono preamps/stages ( the same thing under two names ), I do realize it is too difficult for most people to get their record player fundamental resonance right in the first place. Manufacturers of far higher quality phono preamps than TCC TC-750 still do it - because if you put together a combination of arm and cartridge with a pronounced and above all underdamped low frequency resonance ( the one around 10 Hz ), there is more chance of possibility to ENJOY reproduction over such setup through preamp with built in subsonic filter than the one that lets you hear it all - be it good or bad. It is the classic case of "prevention is better than cure", yet after it has been proven over decades that only a scant percentage of users of phono equipment is capable of "prevention" - and this is possible with a rather high end equipment in the first place - the "cure" ( sub sonic filtering - the missing oomph in bass as you put it ) is still better than no action at all.
> 
> Frankly, if you expect the solidity of bass from your phono comparable or equal to digital, it can be approached - but the precision in main TT bearings,
> arm bearings, cartridge, phono preamp etc, which is capable of equaling digital, generally is $$$ .


 
   
  Thank you very much analogsurviver for the details on Subsonic filtering.
   
  I have just joined the club but am waiting for my TT and preamp to arrive.
   
  I ended up getting a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon and Pro-Ject Phono Box S.  I will pair these with a Bottlehead Crack and my DT880 600ohms.  I hope that it will sound good!
   
  I ended up going with the Phono Box S because of the Subsonic Filter(again I am a noobie and thought this was good because I don't want to ruin my headphones), adjustable gain settings, and same manufacturer hopefully they would test them together and would sound good.
   
  A question for you.  There are 4 gain settings...40, 43, 60, 63(I think).  The 2M Red it says to go with 40 gain.  With my Crack right now though my DAC I have to have it between 12-2 to get an acceptible volume.  I am afraid that with the TT I will have to go higher.  I know that increasing the gain will introduce noise but is it advisable to go to 43 with the 2M red....or what about 60??
   
  Thanks very much.  I am sorry that I sold all my albums from the 70s now!  I am really excited!!


----------



## kid vic

Quote: 





paul graham said:


> Haha cheers bud,
> I havent spun for around 3 & 1/2 years as Im living at my parents whilst in between homes, So the decks & other gear not in the photo is all in storage
> currently.
> However when we do move, I plan to size down, So I'll be selling my Denon CDJ's, Power amps, the Vestax mixer in the pic ( Pcv 175 ) & some of my DJ cans.
> ...


 
  I only scratch and I'm using a Numark CDX (one of like 3 still working in the known universe it seems) and a Vestax PMC-08 pro (Vestax mixers are the shizznit!!).


----------



## Paul Graham

I still have a way to go as I still need to order an RB300, Phono stage & A decent cart.
  For now Im running a stock RP3, R200 arm, ( Possible re-cable? - waiting on comfirmation ) New belt, Glass platter & 
  Ortofon Concorde "NightClub" 
  Amp is a Denon PMA-250, Speaker cable is Mr Lo & the speakers are the Monitor Audio Bronze BR2.
   
  The setup in the pictures was a quick test rig to make sure all is working ok. 
  Which it is and then some lol!!
  Grinning like a cheshire cat right now.
   
   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   
   
   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   
  With the Nightclub - 
   





   
  And with the OM -


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





wullymc said:


> Thank you very much analogsurviver for the details on Subsonic filtering.
> 
> I have just joined the club but am waiting for my TT and preamp to arrive.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Quote: 





wullymc said:


> Thank you very much analogsurviver for the details on Subsonic filtering.
> 
> I have just joined the club but am waiting for my TT and preamp to arrive.
> 
> ...


 
  Phono gain adjustments are there because phono cartridges have different sensitivities - and because it (used to be )/is standardized how loud should a source be prior input to line preamp. In olden days, that meant .707 V at 0 dB, but then came CD with its 2 V nominal out ant things are in between these two valus "in grey area happily forever since ". If you set the phono gain too high relative to the cartridge in use, you would outstrip the pream capabilities - phono overload is not so problematic as it used to be in the first days of transistors, but expecting any reasonably priced phono preamp to offer 40 dB of overload margin ( 20 really required, and if you misadjust gain for MC ie60 dB for a MM cart requiring 40 dB of gain, that then requires 40 dB of overload margin ) is too much and is definitely calling for trouble. 40/43 and 60/63 settings are for covering the different sensitivities within the MM and MC group of carts respectively.
   
  If you then still lack gain - line stage, or in modern days just "preamp" is something you will have to insert between the output of phono stage and input of whatever that does not achieve full level with the output of phono preamp alone.
   
  Subsonics on turntable are of course connected with the link I have posted several times.  You might be shocked to learn that vast majority of record players play about only 20 % useful musical signal - all the rest is subsonic garbage, something it either needs to be filtered or requires equipment to have such great margins for overload - which even when it can be done, costs absurd amounts of money. Like instead of 100 W amps 1000+W amps etc - so if your arm does not allow LF resonance at approx 10 Hz of below + 4dB or so at the peak ( about 40 % more than it should have been ) but happily resonates at around usual + 12 dB ( approx 400 % - yes 4 times ) at its resonant point, subsonic filter is, regardless of what should be in theory, still a better choice for majority.
   
  There ARE pickup arm/cartridges that behave at +4dB ( or even better ) at resonance - but they need painstaking adjustment(s) with test record(s) , never did grow on trees and are even less likely to do so today. And they do not come cheap, except with some lucky coincidence. But they will let you play bass as was recorded to the LP and was meant to be heard - without any subsonic filtering. 
   
   I sold entire 3 ( in a word: three ) LPs I owned in my life, one of them was unfortunately http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=2746 which is considered classic and is now next to unobtainable - even if you agree with the exhorbitant price. Equipment is replaceable - records are not.


----------



## TheWuss

I got a new edge clamp and center weight...
   
  TTW Audio out of Ontario supplied both.
  The edge ring is pictured below with the "locator disc". 
  Actually, this seems to work really well.  You just place the plastic locator disc on the metal clamp, then put that down on top of your record.
  Then, the plastic locator disc lifts off, leaving the edge clamp behind (and in the right spot).
   
  TTW Audio were a pleasure to deal with, and make a beautiful product...
  and a product that is less than half the cost of the (*cough* way overpriced) VPI stabilizer ring.
   
  so, here's the rig as of today...
   
   

   

   
  Warped records?  I laugh in your general direction!!!


----------



## MorbidToaster

Still jealous Wuss. So sexy. Just to update slightly on our Convo the other day it looks like I might be cutting the stage budget way back. Tax return is gonna be quite a bit smaller than I expected. I'm now also looking at the Rega P8 as well as the other we talked about.


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Although I disagree with any subsonic filtering in phono preamps/stages ( the same thing under two names ), I do realize it is too difficult for most people to get their record player fundamental resonance right in the first place. Manufacturers of far higher quality phono preamps than TCC TC-750 still do it - because if you put together a combination of arm and cartridge with a pronounced and above all underdamped low frequency resonance ( the one around 10 Hz ), there is more chance of possibility to ENJOY reproduction over such setup through preamp with built in subsonic filter than the one that lets you hear it all - be it good or bad. It is the classic case of "prevention is better than cure", yet after it has been proven over decades that only a scant percentage of users of phono equipment is capable of "prevention" - and this is possible with a rather high end equipment in the first place - the "cure" ( sub sonic filtering - the missing oomph in bass as you put it ) is still better than no action at all.
> 
> Frankly, if you expect the solidity of bass from your phono comparable or equal to digital, it can be approached - but the precision in main TT bearings,
> arm bearings, cartridge, phono preamp etc, which is capable of equaling digital, generally is $$$ .


 
   
   
  Reply to first part - that sounds like gibberish, please dumb it down
   
  second part - I realize I can't realistically get down to the lower frequencies without a huge amount of money, but are there any affordable solutions to at least getting closer than I am now?


----------



## Silent One

@ TheWuss - Beautiful!


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





silent one said:


> @ TheWuss - Beautiful!


 
   
  Boy Howdy!  Is it ever.  Nice


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> I got a new edge clamp and center weight...
> 
> TTW Audio out of Ontario supplied both.
> The edge ring is pictured below with the "locator disc".
> ...


 
   
  I'm interested in record clamps but their price does not make them very appealing. I accidentally through a record out into the recycling in the summer (and it had rained) and didn't realize it until 3 days later. I practically cried. But is the lp absolutely screwed or is the warp superficial?


----------



## TheWuss

thanks, guys.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  gonna have some friends over tonight.  sip some beer, listen to some old jazz LPs.  can't wait.
   
  @ MT - for a budget oriented stage, the Chinook rocks.
  There are a few very nice ones right in that price range, and even a tad under that.
  For example, the Liberty Audio BTB-1 is supposed to be forehead-slapping good.  $1750.


----------



## TheWuss

Quote: 





blackenedplague said:


> I'm interested in record clamps but their price does not make them very appealing. I accidentally through a record out into the recycling in the summer (and it had rained) and didn't realize it until 3 days later. I practically cried. But is the lp absolutely screwed or is the warp superficial?


 
  hard to say...
  there are other ways of recovering the use of that record.
  there are record flattening machines.  as well as homemade remedies for flattening warped records.
  depending on the severity, you might be able to send it away to someone to have it flattened...


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





blackenedplague said:


> Reply to first part - that sounds like gibberish, please dumb it down
> 
> second part - I realize I can't realistically get down to the lower frequencies without a huge amount of money, but are there any affordable solutions to at least getting closer than I am now?


 
  Sorry, can't put it otherwise and still remain polite about it - allowing for the undamped resonance and sweeping every other ill effect but just sheer overload of everything down the chain under the rug, which is all and everything a subsonic filter is capable of doing, always puts me into red zone RPM/overdrive.  
  But still better than allowing all ill effects of resonance and not even removing sheer overload of everything by using a subsonic filter. Listening at high volume with vented speakers to the same music on LP and CD should definitely give you visual clues - woofers would dance totally out of tune and with MUCH higher amplitude than with CD - testimony to the undamped fundamental tonearm/cartridge combination resonance.
   
  An affordable solution that does work is Shure Dynamic Stabilizer - or "brush" as more commonly referred to, first introduced on V 15 Type IV in 1978.
  It is VERY effective, it will almost completely remove lateral resonance and still be quite effective with vertical one. Trouble is, it does not come free; 
  There are approx 10000 carbon fibre "hairs" making contact from about 4 mm before the stylus position on the vinyl to the stylus position - and you get combined "pre echo" recorded signal feedback from the surface of the record that is totally unrelated to the actual signal being traced by the stylus at the time. It can pass unnoticed with some kind of music, like loud pop/rock/whatever - but if you are listening to some high dynamic range recording, like say Mahler's symphonies, you will notice this when listening to some very quiet passage and carbon bristles are already tracing the next dynamic outburst. The effect ist most audible and disturbing on the JVC TRS 1007 Test Record - there are frequency response sweeps and as analog predates digital/computer times, each sweep is followed by silent groove recorded for the time needed for the chart recorder to return to the start position, in order to be able to draw the curve say for another channel to the same piece of paper ( the famous Bruel & Kjaer papers, like included with each Benz Micro Switzerland cart ). With normal cartridge or Shure operated with brush lifted up, it sounds normal; with Shure brush, you get peculiar toned down distant kind of sound when there should be nothing - the bristles are already tracing the next sweep, whereas stylus is still in the silent grooves. I have nicknamed this effect as Subway - as it does most resemble the sound of underground subway of Paris or London of incoming and outgoing trains.
  For this reason, I try to avoid the brush as much as I can, but if the resonance is too much with given combination, I give in and use it.
   
  Stax did a variation on the theme, It is CS-2 Air Damped Stabilizer for HIGH COMPLIANCE CARTRIDGES.http://www.audio-extasa.eu/popup_add_image.php?pID=1246  It mounts between the tonearm/headshell and ANY 1/2" mount cartridge and can ve adjusted so that its brisles ride as close to the stylus as possible. It is as effective as Shure's brush, with sligtly less bristle pre echo. Rare as hen's teeth, appropriately priced,  but sporadically does surface on ebay.
   
  Technics EPA 100, EPA 100MK2, EPA 250, EPA 500 , a couple of Denon arms, one Pioneer, an arm on Dual ( 714Q ) have Dynamic Antiresonator built into their counterweight - which CAN be precisely adjusted for the very cartridge in operation, using test record and ear (with some training/experience ) or the use of measuring instruments. Dynavector DV 505 and 507 are VERY effective at suppressing that Enemy of Analog # 1 - in fact, they are perhaps the only solution when it comes to ACCURATELY reproducing the most difficult LP to reproduce of them all, the http://www.popsike.com/THE-POWER-AND-GLORY-HOLZGRAF-DIRECT-TO-DISC-MK-REAL-MILLER-KREISEL-AUDIOPHILE/270915950996.html
  http://avaxhome.ws/hraphile/Holzgraf_Power_and_Glory_Volume1_24_96.html
  If there is ANY LF resonance, this awesome recording will reveal it - and Grado Dancers WILL all but jump the groove, so please do not use them ( a properly adjusted/matched Grado will do just fine ! ). But please take this seriously; recording cointains MUSIC recorded down to 8 Hz or so - you need large speakers/amplifiers and big enough ROOM to at least try to reproduce this awesome sound. Stax Lambda Pro/SRM1MK2 will do justice to this record - IF you take care of the record player LF resonance.
   
  There were other viable solutions to the problem, like Dynamic Q Damping by Denon, Sony and JVC. Of all of the above, only Dynavector DV 707 is still in the production. The only other arm that is still acceptable regarding this made today are various incarnations of The Well Tempered Arm. -  provided your records are reasonably flat or at least not with quick sharp warps, because it can not follow them due to very high degree of viscous damping without forcing the cantilever to completely take over all the burden.
   
  HOWEVER - and that is a BIG however - things may not be so dark. There is a fair possibility that this http://www.rauna.com/slides/cantusjpg.html may well prove to be well behaved as far as LF resonance ( and hopefully everything else ...) is concerned. A friend is eyeing this on my recommendation and if and when the thing comes under my scrutiny, will report on findings ASAP.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akm9PmGY31Q  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14ChO3wdc2A
   
  There is an undisputed king of solutions to this problem, MUCH MALIGNED, particularly from the US sources. Although I certainly do have a link to the math behind it, proving that this thing is clever enough to adjust itself automatically to the parameters needed for each and every cartridge without any adjustments necessary on the part of the user, let's say that for all the bashing this superb but not exactly stellar executioned design got from English speaking world, FINDING IT WILL BE LEFT AS AN EXERCISE FOR THE READER. And absolutely *forget* finding it in English - does not exist.
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37pLkQQjQwQ


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> hard to say...
> there are other ways of recovering the use of that record.
> there are record flattening machines.  as well as homemade remedies for flattening warped records.
> depending on the severity, you might be able to send it away to someone to have it flattened...


 
  +1


----------



## dscythe

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> +1


 
  ive read that if you place a record between to pieces of glass and turn your oven on to the minimum heat setting and leave it in there for 5-10 minutes that can fix it. Cant guarantee resulst though


----------



## fleasbaby

I have used glass before too, but left the record between the sheets and outside on a hot summer day (which is pretty much like putting it in an oven in So-Cal).

Worked pretty well. Jus be sure to allow the record to cool properly before removing it from the glass, and use heavy sheets, not standard window glass.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote:  
   
  It's coming together!


----------



## Paul Graham

Thanks bud! It sounds great so far but I know its capable of so much more!!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> I got a new edge clamp and center weight...
> 
> TTW Audio out of Ontario supplied both.
> The edge ring is pictured below with the "locator disc".
> ...


 
  Generally, I am not fond of the rim weights, but this design once for a change makes some sense - it is acrylic or some similar material ? It is the nicest variation on the theme I have seen so far.
   
  Still, I prefer vacuum to flatten my LPs. After I first experienced with Versa Dynamics tables, I knew one day I will have to get some vacuum suction device. It uses air pressure to press your record against the platter, flattening it in the process. Not with a couple of kg of force for the rim/clamp, but approx 250 kg due to vacuum and atmospheric pressure difference !
   
  The most easily available is Audio Technica AT666EX  http://www.soundscapehifi.com/used-at-stabilizer-001.htm Here YT vid for 665BX which is basically the same thing, but with less clutter and more comfort http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eijU5LjvjNA
   
  Here my second S/H sample that arrived yesterday, but got demaged at the rim during transport due to insufficient padding :
   
   

   

   

  The box to the left of the TT is AT 661  vacuum pump . Upper close up showing vacuum valve closed, lower one open ( release ) 
   

  Suction valve, where the hose is attached
   

  ...and what I will have to "live (un)happily ever after" with - because it is next to impossible to get people to pack as per instructions...
   
  Rule # 1 for shipping : regardless what are you shipping, pack it so that it will securely survive fall from the 1 meter height - from any possible angle.
  If you stiill wonder why you MUST do it even if you declared it as fragile, stamped "This side up", etc - enjoy watching :
   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9JRmgo77D4
   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq6u8JU6v4E
   
DHL are certainly not the only ones to blame, but they menaged to demage a perfectly good 30 years old AT666EX this time. It is still functional, yet at every look of the turning platter I will get reminded ...


----------



## wullymc

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Phono gain adjustments are there because phono cartridges have different sensitivities - and because it (used to be )/is standardized how loud should a source be prior input to line preamp. In olden days, that meant .707 V at 0 dB, but then came CD with its 2 V nominal out ant things are in between these two valus "in grey area happily forever since ". If you set the phono gain too high relative to the cartridge in use, you would outstrip the pream capabilities - phono overload is not so problematic as it used to be in the first days of transistors, but expecting any reasonably priced phono preamp to offer 40 dB of overload margin ( 20 really required, and if you misadjust gain for MC ie60 dB for a MM cart requiring 40 dB of gain, that then requires 40 dB of overload margin ) is too much and is definitely calling for trouble. 40/43 and 60/63 settings are for covering the different sensitivities within the MM and MC group of carts respectively.
> 
> If you then still lack gain - line stage, or in modern days just "preamp" is something you will have to insert between the output of phono stage and input of whatever that does not achieve full level with the output of phono preamp alone.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks for your input Analogsurviver.
   
  I am still waiting for my TT but have read the Phono Box manual and it states that for the 2M Red to set the gain at 40db.  In calculations that The Absolute Sound uses  the 5.5mV comes to roughly 45dB of gain required.  I think for the Phono Box I will try the 40dB gain and the 43dB and see how big a difference is.  I won't touch the 60 or 65dB.
   
  I will research a "preamp"  So this is what I would need?..so it would look like....TT -->  Phono Preamp -->  Preamp ---> Headphone Amp -->  Headphones.  Right?
   
  Thanks for your help..... I am a TT neophyte!
   
  Take care..


----------



## MorbidToaster

http://www.kabusa.com/pregain.htm
   
  Very useful tool. At 5.5mv the 40db should be just fine.
   
  Quote: 





wullymc said:


> Thanks for your input Analogsurviver.
> 
> I am still waiting for my TT but have read the Phono Box manual and it states that for the 2M Red to set the gain at 40db.  In calculations that The Absolute Sound uses  the 5.5mV comes to roughly 45dB of gain required.  I think for the Phono Box I will try the 40dB gain and the 43dB and see how big a difference is.  I won't touch the 60 or 65dB.
> 
> ...


----------



## wullymc

....a preamp like:
   
  http://box-designs.com/main.php?prod=preboxs&cat=amplifier&lang=en
   
   
  ?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## tattare

Woot just got my 2nd 1200mk2 back from the shop!  He thought it was the IC and had me track down some super hard to find rare IC (AN6675K) when the AN6675 was the right one and that wasnt even the problem.  Coil on the servo was blown.  Anywho 2 turntables fixed total cost $279.00 3 months wait time.   (total cost includes the price of the free turntables!)


----------



## gib48189

Well, I just hooked up the Transcriber.  Running it through a Rotel RA-1312 amp, with a set of Polk Audio bookshelf speakers.  (This is the system I have in my basement office) All I can say, I really missed listening to vinyl.  A totally different sound than today's digital.
   
  I put on the first lp I cam across , The Doors Soft Parade.  What a hoot, it sounds great!!  I am simply amazed at the sound quality, even with these speakers.  I may have to figure out how to move this up to my main system.  
   
  I was really thinking of selling the Transcriber, but now I am having second thoughts.  After 25 years in a box, the Transcriber works flawlessly.  Just listened to Miles Davis, Kind of Blue now listening to Cream-Disraeli Gears.  I can't believe how much I have missed this now that it is hooked up again.
   
  I also found the original set-up instructions and a sales brochure for the Transcriber and Transcriptor with the vestigal arm.  I would post them but I can't attach anything.


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





gib48189 said:


> Well, I just hooked up the Transcriber.  Running it through a Rotel RA-1312 amp, with a set of Polk Audio bookshelf speakers.  (This is the system I have in my basement office) All I can say, I really missed listening to vinyl.  A totally different sound than today's digital.
> 
> I put on the first lp I cam across , The Doors Soft Parade.  What a hoot, it sounds great!!  I am simply amazed at the sound quality, even with these speakers.  I may have to figure out how to move this up to my main system.
> 
> ...


 
  You sell that thing and I'll go nuts


----------



## RamblinE

Contributing. 
   

   
  Just a LOWLY Technics SL-B2. It's okay that's lowly though, it was free. What does it do right? Auto-return, noise floor is lower than I thought it would be. Speed stays RELATIVELY steady day to day with only minor correction every other week or so. 
   

   

   
  I want to like the Grado SO BAD but I just don't. It has the potential to sound really good but it just doesn't track well at all. Next cartridge I'm going to try is the AT95E and see if I like it any better. 
   
  I really want a simple Rega though until I address my digital end better I'm going to have to solder on with the Technics. It won't be so bad because seriously it's best attribute is that it just works. Doubt it'll set any hearts on fire though. Seeing some AWESOME tables here that probably would though.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





gib48189 said:


> Well, I just hooked up the Transcriber.  Running it through a Rotel RA-1312 amp, with a set of Polk Audio bookshelf speakers.  (This is the system I have in my basement office) All I can say, I really missed listening to vinyl.  A totally different sound than today's digital.
> 
> I put on the first lp I cam across , The Doors Soft Parade.  What a hoot, it sounds great!!  I am simply amazed at the sound quality, even with these speakers.  I may have to figure out how to move this up to my main system.
> 
> ...


 
  Great. Great music you are spinning on it too !
   
  Those setup instructions would really be nice, as other stuff is available elsewhere http://rochesterhighendaudio.blogspot.com/2012/02/transcriptorsmichell.html. I still have the sales brochures for Transcriber - which in black and white looks very pedestrian compared to lavish colour photo presenting the Skeleton with the Vestigal arm. IMO, it is still the most original and fresh looking sales brochure for a turntable ever - beating a Transcriptors for looks is hard enough in flesh, let alone on photo. The closest came Oracle from Canada, and although it is a better sounding turtable ( Transcriber is a record player SYSTEM, not just motor , very hard to beat ), it can not possibly hide where the inspiration came from.
   
  STOP THE PRESS !! While searching for the scan of Skeleton/Vestigal sales brochure, found this : http://www.analog-forum.de/wbboard/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=22428 It is pic of Transcriber stripped of its lid ( remember me having reservations regarding arm being mounted to almost half a metre square lid "microphone " ? ) - THAT must be the best sounding Transcriptors ever !!!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





wullymc said:


> ....a preamp like:
> 
> http://box-designs.com/main.php?prod=preboxs&cat=amplifier&lang=en
> 
> ...


 
  Yes. No experience with this Pro-Ject, but given their track record, you can not go too wrong with it. Perhaps someone who has been recently in  market for a line stage should chime in, with possible alternative units at the price point.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





rambline said:


> I really want a simple Rega though until I address my digital end better I'm going to have to solder on with the Technics. It won't be so bad because seriously it's best attribute is that it just works. Doubt it'll set any hearts on fire though. Seeing some AWESOME tables here that probably would though.


 
   
  If you can afford it, go for a Rega P1/RP1 or P2 with a glass platter, Ortofon 2M Red (or even better, 2M Blue). You will _NOT _be disappointed.
   
  If not, a Denon DL-110 might be a good match for the Technics (assuming the tonearm is like most of the Japanese tables of the late '70s, early '80s; meaning higher mass). Check out Vinylengine for your table's arm specs. Compliance matching is pretty darn important.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> If you can afford it, go for a Rega P1/RP1 or P2 with a glass platter, Ortofon 2M Red (or even better, 2M Blue). You will _NOT _be disappointed.
> 
> If not, a Denon DL-110 might be a good match for the Technics (assuming the tonearm is like most of the Japanese tables of the late '70s, early '80s; meaning higher mass). Check out Vinylengine for your table's arm specs. Compliance matching is pretty darn important.


 
  +1.
   
  Regarding matching cartridges to arms with removable headshell: CHECK the headshell mass; if your combination tends towards too low a resonant frequency, it might be possible to ameliorate situation with a lighter headshell. SME perforated headshell is still one of the best ( unfortunately rather pricey ) option in such a case. There are "near clones" that look almost the same, with appreciably lower price, but these should still offer 98 % of the performance for reasonable money.No shortage of options for the other way around, but you will notice headshells can command quite high prices. That original Technics ( and its clones ) are medium mass ( and performance - not the best, not the worst sounding ). Can be had dirt cheap : 
  http://www.ebay.de/itm/Turntable-Record-Player-Phono-Cartridge-Headshell-Head-Shell-SME-SONY-S-arm-Type-/271098031075?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item3f1eb3a
   
  Once upon a time, long decades ago, Lyle Cartridges offered an extremely light but still very rigid and relatively very resonance free headshell made out of carbon fibre, which even had azimuth adjustment ! Wish anything of the sort would be still available now - fantastic with high(er) compliance carts on SL1200, for example.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





wullymc said:


> Thanks for your input Analogsurviver.
> 
> I am still waiting for my TT but have read the Phono Box manual and it states that for the 2M Red to set the gain at 40db.  In calculations that The Absolute Sound uses  the 5.5mV comes to roughly 45dB of gain required.  I think for the Phono Box I will try the 40dB gain and the 43dB and see how big a difference is.  I won't touch the 60 or 65dB.
> 
> ...


 
  Try without the Preamp ( line stage ) first - you might/may find you can get sufficient volume. Line stage can turn out to be indispensable, but there are always pros and contras for using one in a system that has enough gain and line gain is set at or around unity. It all depends on the associate equipment and its characteristics, no general rule that does not have its exactly opposite solution in the practice.


----------



## wullymc

Thanks Analogsurviver!
   
  I will try with just the Phono Box and hopefully it will be enough!
   
  I can't wait to get my TT.  It only has been a week and it seems to been forever.
   
  Went to a record store and bought:
   
  Miles Davis - Sketches of Spain (180g)  (hope this is a good one!)
  Yes - Fragile
  Jon Anderson - Animation
   
  Take care!


----------



## gib48189

BLACKENEDPLAGUE
  "You sell that thing and I'll go nuts"
   
  Well I certainly would feel bad if I caused any mental anguish for anyone.  
   
  I really need to think about getting it hooked up to my main system.  Right now I have it connected to the old collection of gear I have in my office.  Oh well, one step at a time, maybe someday I will find speakers to replace my DCM Time Windows and they can move down to the "collection" of 30 year old audio technology.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





wullymc said:


> Thanks Analogsurviver!
> 
> I will try with just the Phono Box and hopefully it will be enough!
> 
> ...


 
  Great taste in music ! 
   
  Sketches of Spain are available in MANY versions - mine is on CBS normal weight and should be guaranteed analog all the way. JUdging on goosebumps on goosebumps whenever I treat myself listening to it it. really is. One of THE recordings to celebrate analog.


----------



## gib48189

It's been a long time since I have even looked at my vinyl collection, found a version of Sketches of Spain, released by Columbia.  Now I have to listen to it.


----------



## Silent One

You make it sound like Jury Duty. I haven't heard it in a very long time. I should revisit it as well...


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





gib48189 said:


> BLACKENEDPLAGUE
> "You sell that thing and I'll go nuts"
> 
> Well I certainly would feel bad if I caused any mental anguish for anyone.
> ...


 
   
  The thing is if you don't keep it to use as a turntable, keep it for sake of ART


----------



## Eee Pee

Speaking of Art, what happened to this being a picture thread?


----------



## gib48189

Your'e right, so here are some pics now that I can post them.  I really have to do some dusting now that this area has something to show.
   
  -


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





gib48189 said:


> Your'e right, so here are some pics now that I can post them.  I really have to do some dusting now that this area has something to show.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I have a picture of a cartoon fapping but if I posted it I'd be banned


----------



## kenman345

I finally get to participate in this thread instead of just lurking
   
   
   
   

  Yamaha TT-400U (Rebranded Technics SL-BD20d) with a OMP 10 stylus. My first true turntable setup. Have yet to listen to it. Waiting for my Maverick D1+ to come


----------



## calipilot227

Despite it being a P-mount, the OMP-10 is actually a pretty good cart


----------



## kenman345

I upgraded the catridge by upgrading the stylus. It was originally a OMP 5E....But if I desire I can always go ahead and get the 20 30 or 40 stylus and use it with the same cartridge. Picked up the turntable and the OMP-5E in it for $10 at a thrift shop. It'll do for now I believe. 
  Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Despite it being a P-mount, the OMP-10 is actually a pretty good cart


----------



## calipilot227

Great deal! My first table was a direct-drive Technics SL-QD33 (P-mount tonearm, same as the BD20). It served me well for almost five years. Then upgraditis kicked in, BIG time


----------



## kenman345

I figure I'll spend the time to use it a lot first, then the money to upgrade parts like the stylus. I can always just use the stylus on a new turntable provided getting a new cartridge. Also, I am using a cheap Pre-amp. I probably will upgrade it as the first actual upgrade after setting it up. My friend needs a cheap pre-amp and I couldn't justify the purchase of a somewhat better pre-amp till I actually used it on a regular basis. Next week when I get my D1+ I'll have all the pieces to the puzzle and finally be able to listen to the turntable properly. 
  Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Great deal! My first table was a direct-drive Technics SL-QD33 (P-mount tonearm, same as the BD20). It served me well for almost five years. Then upgraditis kicked in, BIG time


----------



## samsquanch

Today I got my christmas present to myself...
   
   

   
  Technics SL-1200 mk 2
   
  I got it for $200 from a local record shop, being friends with the owner has its benefits!
   
  I need to do some work to it, but that's part of it being cheap.  On the list:
  -Dust cover and Hinges
  -Adjust pitch, spins to slow at +0
  -Replace +0 pitch led
  -Rewire the signal cables to the circuit board, the cable broke, and whoever "fixed" them did a sloppy job, there's a hose clamp involved...
   
  I forgot to print out an alignment chart while at work today, so I'll do that tomorrow then set up the DL-110 cart I bought for it.
   
  It came with a Grado XT+ cart, which I know is on the low end of Grado's line, but I've read on other sites that an 8MZ stylus (which people seem to be in love with) fits, now since there's more to a cartridge than just a stylus, is it worth putting a $100 stylus on an old cart, or should I just save money and buy a Gold1 Prestige in a few months?  After listening to the XT+ I liked how warm it was, even though it was noticeably worn, it wouldn't be an all the time thing, but for the occasional album I wouldn't mind having the option.
   
  TL;DR:  Is it worth replacing an XT+ stylus with an 8MZ?
   
   
  I'm real excited, I've wanted a 1200 for a long time, and I'm super antsy to start working on it, going to try my hand at rewiring the tonearm, oh boy oh boy oh boy!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





samsquanch said:


> Today I got my christmas present to myself...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yes. 8 MZ stylus is best bang for the buck in all Grado line. People tend to replace Prestige Gold 1 stylus with 8MZ.  It is OK to use it on any Grado with replaceable stylus, but try to get low impedance Grado body too - it is considerably more open sounding. Please note that Grados are prone to hum pickup, low output more because they require higher gain. Try your existing setup first and see if it is bothersome to you - some hum pickup with Grado will be inevitable, particularly at the innermost grooves on close proximity with the motor.
   
  The same caveat with DD holds true for verly low output MCs.


----------



## samsquanch

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Yes. 8 MZ stylus is best bang for the buck in all Grado line. People tend to replace Prestige Gold 1 stylus with 8MZ.  It is OK to use it on any Grado with replaceable stylus, but try to get low impedance Grado body too - it is considerably more open sounding. Please note that Grados are prone to hum pickup, low output more because they require higher gain. Try your existing setup first and see if it is bothersome to you - some hum pickup with Grado will be inevitable, particularly at the innermost grooves on close proximity with the motor.
> 
> The same caveat with DD holds true for verly low output MCs.


 
   
   
  Ok, it's kind of moot at this point, since I'm selling my old table to a friend who doesn't have a cartridge, so I'm putting the grado on that.  I'll save up some money and possibly buy a gold 1 this summer.  Thanks for the heads up!


----------



## deviate2112

Here's my living room analog system...this system sound way better then it should!  Ariston Turntable, KRK Rockit special edition powered monitors, Maverick Tube magic, ProJect phono stage
   
  http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u229/Deviate2112/BF3642DE-67A5-45AF-8EBA-0FC5A4674773-5679-00000AEA25517749.jpg


----------



## calipilot227

Nice table!


----------



## jackskelly

TECHNICS SL-1200MK2; Far from the "best" turntable, but an awesome one.


----------



## fleasbaby

jackskelly said:


> TECHNICS SL-1200MK2; Far from the "best" turntable, but an awesome one.




True, not the best, but still a thing of beauty...I still can't bring myself to upgrade mine to something begged and better...


----------



## jackskelly

Quote: 





fleasbaby said:


> True, not the best, but still a thing of beauty...I still can't bring myself to upgrade mine to something begged and better...


 
   
  I've heard better turntables, one's that cost $100,000, but for the value, the 1200 MK2 still set the standard, and since they've stopped making them, they'll only increase in value.


----------



## calipilot227

Although a Denon DL-110 might be a better cart for that table, nice rig nevertheless.


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





jackskelly said:


> Spoiler: Image
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Good god why is the cart so far up?


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





blackenedplague said:


> Good god why is the cart so far up?


 
  Because of the correct cartridge alignment. Please see my post with pics in the turntable setup thread. With 1200/1210, almost in all cases you will have to push the cart all the way from the arm bearing and angle it slightly towards the main TT bearing in order to have correct alignment on both inner and outer null points, which guarantees best sound.


----------



## Quinto

I seriously doubt it's the correct alignment and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this (I used to have the same set up), but heck, if it sounds good to you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





quinto said:


> I seriously doubt it's the correct alignment and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this (I used to have the same set up), but heck, if it sounds good to you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Alignment ( Baarwald IIRC)  at 66.0 and 120.9 mm - the only way to get it with 1200/1210. I had precisely combo with M97xe here two weeks ago and from such distance it looked exactly the same. All turntables I adjust get measured with test records and an oscilloscope - any misalignment has absolutely no chance to hide.  They perform as they should.
   
  Needless to say, it sounds good.
   
  If anyone starts now with various alignments, I will say then get a linear tracking arm. It can be topic for debate, but only if and when you have actually (had ) your cartridge measured for deviations from perfection. Actual styli errors far outstrip differences among alignments and only small percentage of actual styli of any given model at ANY price earn from me suffix T - which means Tangential and is perfectly aligned in each and every plane. For this reason, deviations from perfect adjustments have to be used in real world to compensate for stylus error - without test records and at least an oscilloscope, Mission Impossible.
   
  And some perfectly made actual adjustment of real cartridges actually do look horribly wrong - particularly those for azimuth. Picture yourself how skewed a 3 degree error in cartridge looks like on the mirrored surface  ...and it is not that rare in practice at all. The goal is to get playback stylus positioned as close to the position cutting stylus made the groove - it is all that matters.


----------



## analogsurviver

Onkyo CP-5000A from a friend - good belt driven FG servo controlled deck, which means speed is regulated electronically and not by changimg belt position on  2 speed pulley. Has pitch control and strobe. Arm is a bit crude, but it is about average what was available on vintage Japanese TTs. No VTA adjustment. Sounds surprisingly nice with properly adjusted AT95e cart tracked at 1.9 gram (19 mN ).
   
   
  This is a photo promised quite a while ago; first read about this/similar in The Absolutre Sound of the day, in review of Sumiko Analog Survival Kit - where something similr was included:

   
  Here the close-ups of the "knots" that hold the stretched foam rubber string in place; NO glue whatsoever
   

   

  Please note the clearence required for proper operation of the lifting device ( and in the middle of the arm for the arm rest arresting mechanism )
   
  Here the material "string" has been cut from with normal scissors  -  the usual foam rubber profile for stopping leaks in doors/windows:
   

   

  Please note that whatever "glue/threads/etc" on the flat surface that is otherwise self adhesive mounted to door/window frame, must be removed for our purpose prior to mounting to the arm tube.
   
  The purpose of this "string wrap"  is to damp the resonances in the arm tube usually made from metal and sounding, you guessed it, quite metallic.  Although it makes biggest sonical benefits with lower priced vintage gear, its use is by no means limited to those only. Some high mega zoot price designs also showed marked improvement(s). Without going too much into specifics, it will sound quieter in the groove than normal - and that alone is worth a lot.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  It is very light, adding approx 0.6 gram change upon rebalancing the arm - do not forget to rebalance the arm and  set the VTF you normally use.  The string is wound under as high reasonable tension you can achieve/are still comfortable with. If arm has removable headshell,it is advisable to remove it. If the cartridge has GOOD STURDY stylus guard (not flip guard or anything possible to remove with light force ), you can use this. If you intend to try "string wrap" on some arm sporting unprotected nude naked cartridge  named after bird with a hefty price tag - REMOVE IT FAR AWAY and remount only after your string is securely in place on the arm tube... Goes for ANY cartridge you mind demaging.
   
  If your tonearm has sensitive bearings that should not be stressed, it is necessary to remove the arm from the table, apply "string wrap" to the arm tube without putting any stress on the bearings, and then reassemble everything .
   
  Please note that I do not assume any responsibiluty for your equipment - this is only general suggestion and you are on your own regarding implementation.
   
  How can it sound? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










etc
   
  P.S: http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=27050


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Onkyo CP-5000A from a friend - good belt driven FG servo controlled deck, which means speed is regulated electronically and not by changimg belt position on  2 speed pulley. Has pitch control and strobe. Arm is a bit crude, but it is about average what was available on vintage Japanese TTs. No VTA adjustment. Sounds surprisingly nice with properly adjusted AT95e cart tracked at 1.9 gram (19 mN ).
> 
> 
> This is a photo promised quite a while ago; first read about this/similar in The Absolutre Sound of the day, in review of Sumiko Analog Survival Kit - where something similr was included:
> ...


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

With the standard Baerwald alignment, nearly every cartridge I've installed on my Tech 1200 has been virtually to the tip of the headshell. When you search for alignment tips, many Tech 1200 owners recommend starting at the farthest position and working backwards. Seems counterintuitive, but it works.


----------



## jackskelly

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Alignment ( Baarwald IIRC)  at 66.0 and 120.9 mm - the only way to get it with 1200/1210. I had precisely combo with M97xe here two weeks ago and from such distance it looked exactly the same. All turntables I adjust get measured with test records and an oscilloscope - any misalignment has absolutely no chance to hide.  They perform as they should.
> 
> Needless to say, it sounds good.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Should I try to move the cartridge back some? This is the only cartridge I've used on this turntable actually, although I am probably going to upgrade to a Denon or Grado (or something else, I don't know yet) cartridge sometime soon. When I installed it first it seemed to fit most naturally that far up. It sounds pretty good, so I don't think it would really make a difference sonically.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





jackskelly said:


> Should I try to move the cartridge back some? This is the only cartridge I've used on this turntable actually, although I am probably going to upgrade to a Denon or Grado (or something else, I don't know yet) cartridge sometime soon. When I installed it first it seemed to fit most naturally that far up. It sounds pretty good, so I don't think it would really make a difference sonically.


 
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Turntable-Phonograph-LP-Phono-Cartridge-Stylus-Alignment-Protractor-Tool-/400353186735?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item5d36e8d3af
   
  You will see all that will be needed will be slight angling the cart towards inside to the main TT bearing . This tool is the best bang for the buck - there are better and more precise that without any knowledge, just by observing instructions do the trick - at approx 10 times the price. Look at the Turntable setup thread, there are all the references needed to correctly set up the geometry for the pivoted arm.


----------



## RamblinE

As far as aligning a Technics cartridge goes I've gone by the old manual for my SL-B2 as well as other sources for Technics stuff and gone with the 52mm from stylus tip to rubber washer on the back of the headshell method. I bought an overhang gauge from needle doctor (KAB USA sells them too, for cheaper actually) and use it as a baseline, though with mixed results.


----------



## jackskelly

Quote: 





rambline said:


> As far as aligning a Technics cartridge goes I've gone by the old manual for my SL-B2 as well as other sources for Technics stuff and gone with the 52mm from stylus tip to rubber washer on the back of the headshell method. I bought an overhang gauge from needle doctor (KAB USA sells them too, for cheaper actually) and use it as a baseline, though with mixed results.


 
   
   
  Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Turntable-Phonograph-LP-Phono-Cartridge-Stylus-Alignment-Protractor-Tool-/400353186735?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item5d36e8d3af
> 
> You will see all that will be needed will be slight angling the cart towards inside to the main TT bearing . This tool is the best bang for the buck - there are better and more precise that without any knowledge, just by observing instructions do the trick - at approx 10 times the price. Look at the Turntable setup thread, there are all the references needed to correctly set up the geometry for he pivoted arm.


 
   
  That's for the information, I'll try the 52 mm rule and buy that tool as well.


----------



## samsquanch

My Denon DL110 cart sticks out on my sl1200mkII as well, it's about where you want it according to Baerwald method.  I just set up two different cartridges on mine this weekend, I used the alignment chart from Vinyl Engine, you can print these out, you have to make an account is the only draw back, but it is free, so that's cheap enough.
   
  http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml
   
  They have one specifically for 12/13/14/15/16xx series tables with an s shaped arm, it's what I used, and I feel I've had decent success with it, maybe when I get a few more bucks in my pocket I'll order some fancy gauge or what not, until then paper copy will do.


----------



## RamblinE

Quote: 





samsquanch said:


> My Denon DL110 cart sticks out on my sl1200mkII as well, it's about where you want it according to Baerwald method.  I just set up two different cartridges on mine this weekend, I used the alignment chart from Vinyl Engine, you can print these out, you have to make an account is the only draw back, but it is free, so that's cheap enough.
> 
> http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml
> 
> They have one specifically for 12/13/14/15/16xx series tables with an s shaped arm, it's what I used, and I feel I've had decent success with it, maybe when I get a few more bucks in my pocket I'll order some fancy gauge or what not, until then paper copy will do.


 
  That sounds interesting, I might have to try that on my SL1200 knock-off table (the arm geometry should be the same). Technics used Stevenson which is what the 52mm alignment method comes out to. I've never tried Baerwald but I'm happy enough right now. Only minimal amounts of IGR at best at the end of records I've bought brand new. And before you say anything about the knock off (it's a Gemini) it out-performs my SL-B2 in tracking.


----------



## samsquanch

Only thing I'd say about the knock off is maybe not use the sl1200 specific gauge, and use a generic version (also on that page), just in case the arm isn't exactly the same.


----------



## RamblinE

Quote: 





samsquanch said:


> Only thing I'd say about the knock off is maybe not use the sl1200 specific gage, and use a generic version (also on that page), just in case the arm isn't exactly the same.


 
  That's a good idea. I've downloaded the turntable's manual and it says absolutely nothing about how to install the cartridge properly (helpful, right?). The arm, while most likely inferior to an SL1200's has the same measurements and the head shell's are virtually interchangeable. Until I decide to try something different like Baerwald I'm actually pretty confident that the Technics Overhang gage is getting me as close as possible to Stevenson. I'm a digital guy so my patience for this stuff is a bit low but I do have enough records to justify keeping the capability around.


----------



## samsquanch

A bit off topic, but this seems like a decent thread to ask in.
   
  I have the chance to buy 2 Numark TT1625 turntables and a DM950 dj mixer for around $150.  I'd be strictly using them for djing, not scratching and all that, just playing records at local bars.  I have no familiarity with Numark, and the reviews I've read seem to be coming from people using them for scratching and beat making, most of them seem to call them beginner decks for that sort of thing.
   
  Has anyone used them for just playing records?  If so what did you think?  Obviously they're not "audiophile" by any means, but they don't need to be, and if I can use them to generate some cash, then I can sell them and buy two more SL1200's.  I just don't want to buy a pile of headache.


----------



## RamblinE

Gemini PT2000. S-arm. Direct Drive. Quartz Lock. Pitch Adjustment. Cue Light. DJ lamp. Grado Green cartridge. I hate how it tracks and really want to try the AT95E. ART USB Phono Pre preamp. I added a bulls-eye level. No dust cover. Need to make a maple base to further isolate it from any vibrations. The overhang gauge I got from Needle Doctor is over in the corner with the Technics SL-B2 head shell in it and an AT3600. Just cleaned a Leonard Cohen record and it doesn't sound as bad as a lot of old records I've come across do. Will probably add this to the Good Records Milk Crate. Alphabetized and all.


----------



## kid vic

Quote: 





rambline said:


> Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I have the ART usb preamp, its actually really nice! I have yet to use it to transfer files but I'm happy knowing it can.


----------



## Eee Pee




----------



## Silent One

At first, I thought he may have been blind...until I caught his glance looking over honey.


----------



## fleasbaby

I have always wanted a decent portable record player...what is that one?


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





fleasbaby said:


> I have always wanted a decent portable record player...what is that one?


 
  http://www.ps-f5.com/


----------



## kenman345

Might wanna consider this: http://www.crosleyradio.com/Product.aspx?pid=1869
   
  It works, it doesnt sound horrible, and it has a lot of built in hardware. I had it as my first turntable. I still have it but don't use it. Its easy to store though
  Quote: 





fleasbaby said:


> I have always wanted a decent portable record player...what is that one?


----------



## Silent One

Music Hall mmf-7.1
   

   
   
   
   
  House Party


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Music Hall mmf-7.1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   A VERY " Ordnung und Disziplin" party ...


----------



## Silent One




----------



## Skylab

Super cool, SO!


----------



## RamblinE

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Music Hall mmf-7.1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  So how do you like that Gemini? I have the same one. I'm sure it can't compare to the Music Hall but still


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rambline said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Decent sound, decent cart (Shure - White Label)...got me through my return to vinyl a couple of years ago. Digital playback dominated monthly listening sessions, but I'd dedicate at least one session each month to the Gemini. 
   
  Last summer, the vintage Sony PS-X5 bought a bit more time in the room and a few more rewards. And Friday night, I finally acquired a belt and got the mmf-7.1 up and running..._proudly so. _Well, it wasn't like I wasn't use to staying up
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 'till sunrise already. Yup, we're going places now!


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Super cool, SO!


 
   
  Thanks. You're looking at a shot of my three year progression laid out from right to left. The reason why they're sitting in the middle of the foyer
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 is because I'm preparing to move in about 60 days. The Music Hall stays, but I marched the other two into the closet while I began organizing stuff for sale.


----------



## Magicman74




----------



## wullymc

Finally got my TT.  I ended up changing my order from a Debut Carbon and Pro-ject Phono Box S
   
  my setup:
   
  Pro-ject RPM5.1 with Ortofon 2M Bronze
  Graham Slee Gold Era V
  Bottlehead Crack
  DT 880 600ohm
   
   

   
   
  I am really enjoying getting back into vinyl!!     ...sorry for the bad photo!


----------



## shipsupt

Finally got finished with some of the cosmetics and the major mechanical work.  I listened all afternoon and it sounds almost as good as it looks.  The stylus is tired for sure, so I need to either replace it and keep the vintage Shure cartridge or go for a new updated high compliance cartridge.  I'm still looking for suggestions on that front!?  

 Straight out of 1973...


----------



## Silent One

Nicely presented, shipsupt! Wish I had the knowledge to recommend something to you.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





shipsupt said:


> Finally got finished with some of the cosmetics and the major mechanical work.  I listened all afternoon and it sounds almost as good as it looks.  The stylus is tired for sure, so I need to either replace it and keep the vintage Shure cartridge or go for a new updated high compliance cartridge.  I'm still looking for suggestions on that front!?
> 
> Straight out of 1973...


 
  Hi. Please look "a couple" of posts back, regarding Transcriptors Reference Hydraulic - also the same you have. Please note which Shure cart you have, there are styli options for them besides going NOS ( $$$ ) without losing the quality and in some cases, you can appreciaby improve upon the original performance.
   
  I am not a great admirer of the SME 3009 Series 2 tonearm, I found Transcriptors Vestigal incomparably better with high compliance carts. An SME Series III would be a great improvement, Mission 774 ( the original Jon Bicht design, not the cheapo later version ) would be much better still for high compliance carts. If you would prefer going to low compliance carts, SME IV/V etc would mount to your deck without any surgery required - all mentioned arms ( except Vestigal ) have SME fixing hole arrangement. BUT - if you opt for low compliance, you would absolutely have to do something regarding platter - it is all in that Transcriptors Hydraulic post.
   
  The least expensive NOS that will get you a very high quality stylus at the moment is Digitrac 300SE http://www.ebay.de/itm/Digitrac-300-SE-300SE-T4P-P-Mount-System-NOS-/390289443821?pt=Plattenspielerzubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item5adf104bed#ht_2921wt_932 .  Since you have the same arm I used to have, with non detacheable headshell offering the least effective mass, you might get by using the whole p-mount cart with its adapter - but I highly suggest getting an OM or OM Super ( MUCH better still ) cartridge body. Digitrac 300 SE is p-mount cart with specified 6.0 g mass, with adaper and mounting hardware it arrives at 8 grams or so. No match for the OM at 2.7 gram plus hardware. Ebay is your friend for body. All you would have to do to mount Digitrac stylus to OM(Super) body is to cut off small plastic tab - easy to do with a sharp knife. Digitrac is an Ortofon product and is a high compliance version of the current Stylus 30 - at MUCH better price.
   
  As I assume you have Shure V15 Type III - it is a great cart, but on the heavy side for its high compliance. Given the popularity of the pairing at the time, SME had no option but to introduce FD 200 silicone damping, to help control the low frequency resonance and stabilize the performance. FD200 was standard on SME III, with later introduced cheaper version IIIS that had to do without FD200. Although it would help, FD200 is not absolutely mandatory with OM ( Super ) cartridge with Digitrac stylus - the resonant frequency does get high enough to stay out of most bothersome below 7 Hz range.
   
  Stay tuned for suggestions regarding suspension for the Transcriptors Reference ( either Electronic or Hydraulic ) - I think I figured out this one as well, as original isolation from structural feedback in Reference leaves much to be desired.
   
  Transcriptors is in general described today as pretty face and not-so-great actual performer. Much of the later can be removed if you cater to its needs to stay in the ring for pure performance, giving one a very respectable sonics indeed.


----------



## gib48189

Shipsupt, looks great, congratulations on getting it spinning!!


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Curious on how much that set you back/how much it's worth


----------



## dosley01

This weeks setup, but I have a Marantz TT15-S1 arriving tomorrow!


----------



## shipsupt

So far it hasn't been too bad... I managed to find the basic table in good shape for a few hundred pounds.  I've put about the same amount into it to get it to where it is.  I'm not sure what it's worth... a mint version with all the accessories etc... might go for around 1200 pounds on ebay, but that is the extreme perfect example.  I see others in decent shape trading for far less.
   
  Quote: 





blackenedplague said:


> Curious on how much that set you back/how much it's worth


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





shipsupt said:


> So far it hasn't been too bad... I managed to find the basic table in good shape for a few hundred pounds.  I've put about the same amount into it to get it to where it is.  I'm not sure what it's worth... a mint version with all the accessories etc... might go for around 1200 pounds on ebay, but that is the extreme perfect example.  I see others in decent shape trading for far less.


 
   
  GBP
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




? Can't wait for you to get back 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




across The Pond.


----------



## shipsupt

I am really enjoying this assignment, life in Europe is great in many ways, but buying audio gear is NOT one of them!  I've been hammered by the VAT and customs a few times.  For feeding my audio addiction I will be happy to get back home!
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> GBP
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





shipsupt said:


> I am really enjoying this assignment, life in Europe is great in many ways, but buying audio gear is NOT one of them!  I've been hammered by the VAT and customs a few times.  For feeding my audio addiction I will be happy to get back home!
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
   
  Might have to send you an occasional care package.


----------



## Eee Pee

I got a few records today because I've found some great new music, and turned on the record player for the first time in a month.
   
   

   
  That's Local Natives' Hummingbird playing there.  And Great Lakes' Alchemy Hour DIPA beer.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Just dropped the needle on RIITIIR. I am extremely happy with my new Amadeus. Still need to get a new mat and isolation platform for it though.


----------



## Audio Addict

http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/51013811


vinyl made the nightly news as their end of show feature.


----------



## Eee Pee

Hey cool!  Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Silent One

+1
  Thanks, Audio Addict!


----------



## shipsupt

Getting ready to reap the benefits of a cleaning session!


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





shipsupt said:


> Getting ready to reap the benefits of a cleaning session!


 
  Beautiful, shipsupt! What make is your RCM? In the background, are you designing your own tube-pin layout? I got it! Had to enlarge the pix...


----------



## MorbidToaster

Looks like a 16.5 to me.
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> Beautiful, shipsupt! What make is your RCM? In the background, are you designing your own tube-pin layout? I got it! Had to enlarge the pix...


----------



## Silent One

@ MT
   
  I may break down and get one (RCM) late summer; early autumn. Have you put your Static draining brush through its paces yet?


----------



## MorbidToaster

It definitely helps but even with the new mat and brush it's a small issue. With records properly cleaned there is NO ISSUE whatsoever. Pretty impressive. 
   
  One thing the brush also let me see was a sample of exactly what the maple platforms will look like from Mapleshade. 
   
  Hoping to order a 21x19x4 and an 18x15x2 with classic isoblocks soon enough. Then I'll do another custom 2 shelf Ikea rack in their 'birch' (which should match the platforms really well) to put it all on. Considering I can rap on the side of my current Expedit the TT is on and hear low end kicks in my speakers I think it's necessary.
   
  Definitely thinking the RCM as the next purchase will be a huge improvement on a lot of my records. 
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> @ MT
> 
> I may break down and get one (RCM) late summer; early autumn. Have you put your Static draining brush through its paces yet?


----------



## shipsupt

16.5 it is.
   
  I was making an adapter to connect my Koss ESP-950 to STAX Pro-Bias.
   
  Turned into a marathon session at the bench... I decided to change out cartridges as the stylus that was in the cartridge was pretty tired and I didn't have a spare.  I managed to break off one of the tone arm wires when making the swap so I decided to go ahead and rewire the whole thing.  Tore down the arm, rewired, soldered, reassembled, and then dialed in the arm and cartridge.
   
  Now I'm enjoying an album I cleaned up from my Dad's collection:
   

   
  Great stuff and worth all the work today.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> Beautiful, shipsupt! What make is your RCM? In the background, are you designing your own tube-pin layout? I got it! Had to enlarge the pix...


 
   
  Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Looks like a 16.5 to me.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





shipsupt said:


> Now I'm enjoying an album I cleaned up from my Dad's collection:


 
   
  Great to hear you're competent to save the day. I remember hearing Jimmy emanating from all over the house as long as I can remember. My fav track for Mr.Smith is _"The Sermon."_


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Looking into selling my Technics.... I love it but want something a little more like a Music Hall.
   
  Does $300 sound like too much? It includes the preamp and both cartridges (m97xe and original Audio Technica)


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> It definitely helps but even with the new mat and brush it's a small issue. With records properly cleaned there is NO ISSUE whatsoever. Pretty impressive.
> 
> One thing the brush also let me see was a sample of exactly what the maple platforms will look like from Mapleshade.
> 
> ...


 
  RCM is the way to go. Regarding TT isolation - in a couple of days I will be posting some ramblings on the theme that might prove handy also for your WT.


----------



## dosley01

New week, new TT!  Hello Marantz, good bye Music Hall.  Actually I'm not 100% sold on the TT15-S1, it's coming off a bit dry sounding compared to my Music Hall MMF-7 but it might just be setup or just getting used to the cleaner backgrounds.  I'm still debating on opening up the Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood cartridge but I've been so happy with my Grado Sonata that I think I'd be better off just selling the Virtuoso.


----------



## nelamvr6

Nice!


----------



## calipilot227

That Marantz turntable is a rebranded Clearaudio, correct?


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> That Marantz turntable is a rebranded Clearaudio, correct?


 
  I believe that's correct.


----------



## dosley01

Yes, it's a Clearaudio Emotion with a slightly different plinth and better feet.  I think the platter is also might be a bit thicker.  I really think it's the best bang for the buck out there right now if you need a cartridge.  The Virtuoso Ebony Wood cartridge retails alone for more than half the price of the turntable.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





dosley01 said:


> I've been so happy with my Grado Sonata


 
   




   
  I'm on my second one.  Had the original a long time ago and made it simple on myself deciding what to get for the new table, and went with the newer version.  I spent weeks deciding.  Almost went Ortofon 2M Black, still might as a contrast, but the Sonata is lovely.


----------



## MorbidToaster

That's why I almost bought one month ago.
  Quote: 





dosley01 said:


> Yes, it's a Clearaudio Emotion with a slightly different plinth and better feet.  I think the platter is also might be a bit thicker.  I really think it's the best bang for the buck out there right now if you need a cartridge.  The Virtuoso Ebony Wood cartridge retails alone for *more than half the price of the turntable. *


----------



## Silent One

We don't need a new cart. But, we all know we'd like 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




one anyway. Think the Maestro would be a good fit for the MMF-7?


----------



## Spriggs

Pride and joy audionote TT, bad pic my phone sucks.


----------



## shaunybaby

I am back finally after being off head-fi for about half a year, it feels nice to be back 
   
  hello everyone hope you enjoy these pictures.
   
  some old:
   

   
   
  some new:


----------



## LarryKingsShoes

The UPS man dropped off a few presents for me this afternoon. The first package was the bundle of The Thermals albums that I preordered from Sub Pop a while back. It includes _F---in A_, _The Body, The Blood, The Machine, _and _More Parts Per Million_. I haven't taken the shrink off yet but they're pressed on colored vinyl. It should look pretty sharp. Truthfully, I'm just glad to have gotten the vinyl of any variation.
   

   
  They also threw in the _No Culture Icons _7" and a few stickers, which was a nice bonus. I should order directly from labels more often.
   
  The records are a great surprise and I look forward to listening to them but what really has my attention is the other package that the UPS delivery agent dropped off: a used Realistic LAB-420 turntable. I love my Technics SL1400 and SL1500 but I found a good deal and had to jump on it. I've been wanting to get a table with a wood plinth and auto-return for my living room rig. Even though it's just a veneer, I love how it looks.
   
  I still need to clean it up and get it level. It'll make a good weekend project but before I adjust the feet, I want to get a new storage shelf for my records and get things set up on top of that (turntable, phono stage, headphone amp, headphone stands). I'll probably bribe my brother into taking me to Target to grab one tomorrow afternoon. In addition to that, I want to grab a tracking force gauge to make sure it's set properly. The cart I have on there now (Shure M97xe) wants 1.75g of tracking force with the brush down so I'd love to verify that with a scale.
   

   

   
   
  Sorry for the dark, poorly composed photos. I forgot to grab my 18-55mm lens so I had to take them with my 50mm prime. I've got a broken leg so I had take the pictures from a seated position, which meant having to hold the camera above my head and avoid shaking long enough for the shutter to close. I'll be retaking the pictures once I get everything situated. I'll pull out the tripod for that occasion.
   
  I listened to Peter Gabriel's _So _(you can probably see part of his head on the lower portion of one of the pictures) and the table sounds great. I'll reserve full judgement until I do a thorough set up, though. The alignment and overhang all seemed to check out but I may still need to tweak a thing or two.


----------



## Silent One




----------



## calipilot227

Much better


----------



## Silent One

Thanks. I'm in the process of moving, so I had it boxed up in the closet. But, MorbidToaster was killing me with all the pix inside the "What are you listening to now?" thread. So, I'm gonna keep the TT out for another 30 days...


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





silent one said:


>


 
   
   
  Nice!


----------



## MorbidToaster

Forever. IT STAYS OUT FOREVER. 
   
  It'll give you time to save for a proper isolation platform for it. 
   
  ...or you could just permanently retire your DAC-1 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Steve Hoffman forums started me on those pictures, and now I can't stop. 
   
  EDIT: I move soon and it'll be moving in my lap in the car. lol.
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> Thanks. I'm in the process of moving, so I had it boxed up in the closet. But, MorbidToaster was killing me with all the pix inside the "What are you listening to now?" thread. So, I'm gonna keep the TT out for another 30 days...


----------



## Silent One

MT, notice how the Mac mini music server got shoved deep (I didn't do it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) into the background...


----------



## MorbidToaster

There are more important things. 
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> MT, notice how the Mac mini music server got shoved deep (I didn't do it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## J.Pocalypse

audio addict said:


> http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/51013811
> 
> That made me smile.
> 
> ...


----------



## renno61

one of my turntables a cj walker 55,linn lvv tonearm,  got it for £40 in the 80s with a pair of klh speakers very happy with it.


----------



## joehalo




----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





renno61 said:


> one of my turntables a cj walker 55,linn lvv tonearm,  got it for £40 in the 80s with a pair of klh speakers very happy with it.


 
  GREAT sounding TT. If you can, please post pics - a friend also has one, but doubt I will remember to pick up a camera when next time visiting him.


----------



## renno61

here a few pics you wanted analogsurviver


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





renno61 said:


> here a few pics you wanted analogsurviver


 
  Thank you for the pics - Kate Bush; the very same album I listened to the other day while in my record cleaning frenzy mode!
   
  Now - you have failed to post the most interesting picture - that is of the platter which is unique due to the material from which it is made. I see you are using a mat of some sort - which does reduce somewhat the dynamics this extraordinary table is capable of.
   
  Both Walker CJ55s I am familiar with are very good armed - one with SME Series III, another with even better Mission 774. The plain external appearence or simple wooden subchassis ( seen partly in the pic without the main platter ) do not inspire confidence or desire to fit it with so high quality arms - SQ of the table on the other hand does.


----------



## analogsurviver

The partial story of 
   
   
                                                                *The Sleeping Beauty*
   
It is the Technics SL-DL 1 linear tracking direct drive turntable. A direct descendant of the SL-7, in normal footprint size, with which it does share most of its vital components, such as direct drive motor and pick up arm, which are identical for the two. SL-7 itself rectified many of the terminal teething troubles SL-10 is pleagued with, SL-DL 1 went yet few more steps in the right direction. It is perhaps the best sounding of the whole family of linear tables that derived from the original SL-10 - in stock, unmodified form. It is also the only one in the line without quartz speed regulation - it has strobe on the lower platter rim visible through usual mirror arangement. This feature makes it appealing to those who might want vary the speed for some reason , like musicians. And those who are haunted by the notion that direct drive hunts for speed all the time, especially with quartz control. The time constant with which SL-DL1 does it is very well chosen and it is absolutely nothing wrong with its speed once the whole thing stabilizes in temperature - it may run a bit slower or faster than dead zero speed selected for a half or so hour from the cold start, but a really small correction of the speed control potentiometer takes care of that.
   
This sample came off ebay and was from the start meant for one of my friends. It came packed astonishingly well - in fact better than original packaging.
   
   
dedicated mat between two newspapers
   

  styrofoam pieces CUT TO SIZE in order to secure the position of the TT during transport preventing possibility of the demage to the maximum
   
   

  TT wrapped into usual food film - preventing scratches, offering the last protection in unhappy possibility of the package is subjected to misture or rain.
   
   

  The only thing I did not like about packaging - lid secured to the plinth with tape.
   
   

  The way to SLOWLY peel off remove tape - if you are careful and lucky, there will be no residue or even paint removal that can happen.
   
   

  SL-DL 1 without the dedficated mat
   
   

  Lighting sources underneath the platter TT uses to establish what type of record is on the platter and automatically adjusts for speed and size of the record for 7, 10 and 12 inch records - it is manually adjustable for odd combinations, like 33 1/3 RPM single and 45 RPM maxi single
   
  This particular sample was bought defective. Given my vast experience with these turntables, nothing to worry about. They are actually very tough to knock out for good.
   
  The most common defect or failure is that the linear arm, built into the lid , does not move at all or hangs at some point or does not travel past certain point, making playback impossible. The culprit is always somewhere here
   

  Here is motor that drives the larger pulley through the belt missing on this pic that drives the worm that drives the cogwheel that drives the thread line that actually drives the arm trolley. This belt can be torn, can become too loose, can get glued to either pulley, can get greasy - in short, it is the usual troublemaker. But in this case, motor that drives the arm mechanism in order to keep it parallel to the groove was dead - no motion at all, belt itself being OK. It is kind rare, but not impossible - the TT must have stood unused for real long time, during which the oil in the motor bearing must have dried, seizing the motion. This sample could be unlocked with finger force - but I can remember one that required pliers to do it . If it is that stuck, please use some rubber or leather around the brass pulley on the motor and pliers - you do not want to demage the pulley. If seizure occurs, I always oil the axle properly and let the motor run without the belt attached ( it runs at high speed in the outward direction only for the travel of the arm, which takes about 7 seconds, as at the end of the travel is switch that cuts the motor ) FOR AT LEAST HALF AN HOUR - which should take care of the trouble in the forseeable future.
   
   

  Here the belt in place on well oiled and run-in motor. You can see the remnants of the original yellowish grease 30 or so years old - it has to be cleaned off and replaced with fresh one.
   
   

  Here the entire pick up arm drive system ( without the drive belt )


----------



## renno61

heres a picture of the platter and close up of how motor is mounted to turntable analogsurviver,iam thinking of changed arm maybe in the future?


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> The partial story of
> 
> 
> *The Sleeping Beauty*
> ...


 
  Never would have expected linear tracking love on here.


----------



## analogsurviver

PART 2 OF THE SLEEPING BEAUTY
   
   

  Platter removed. Absolutely necessary in order to get the main/motor bearing oiled. Remember, it is about 30 years old. Removal of the platter is a bit awkward, if you are doing it for the first time, I strongly reccomend you a pair of adittional helping hands. Do not try to pull the platter upwards - its cone is VERY stuck after all this time. Pair of helping hands should hold the TT UPSIDE DOWN, while you tap the spindle with the plastic handle of a screwdriver or similar - with the other hand catching it the second it becomes loose due to gravity. Needless to say, remove the stylus/cartridge for safekeeping while removing the platter.
   
   

  A bit of excess oil is better than none ...
   
   

*THE STAR OF THE SHOW - THE PICK UP ARM * SL series is characterized by this pick up arm - its effective lenght is 115 mm, which is a in stark
  contrast with 9 inch or more of the common pivoted arms. It has FAR lower inertia than an 9 or more inch counterpart - because INERTIA increases WITH THE DISTANCE FROM FULCRUM SQUARED. The inertia is about the most maligned and not correctly understood word in audio vocabulary - it gets mixed up with tracking force, effective mass, etc - and although it is related to them, none of them describes it. Inertia is something all objects have, it is the resistance they show against movement. It is some constant that is dependant on the form, but it always increases with the distance from the fulcrum squared - this is why the Technics SL linear arm has ONE FOURTH of inertia compared to the usual 9 inch 230 mm arm. This means it takes only one fourth of force required to move the stylus on the SL arm across the warp on the record as it does with conventional arm. WHICH TRANSLATES INTO MORE CONSTANT DYNAMIC TRACKING FORCE - WHICH TRANSLATES ULTIMATELY INTO LOWER DISTORTION - USING THE SAME CARTRIDGE OR STYLUS.
   
  It is not a true linear tracking arm - it is a pivoted arm whose pivot gets adjusted by servo circuit governing the pulley belt etc shown above. There are those who insist on parallel down to the molecule level - which usually results in air bearing arm with extremely low gap requiring extremely precise manufacture with the matching price tag attached. 5 figures. And usually such arms are longer and have consequently only insignificantly lower inertia in the vertical plane than pivoted brethern - by couple of %, not 4 times as the SL arm. I own and use Eminent Technology ET 2 that is the lowest priced good air bearing linear tracking arm - and with certain cartridges, there is appreciable gain in performance to be had from Technics SL arm. Let alone when compared to pivoted arms - for all practical purposes, lateral tracking error of SL arm remains below 0.2 degree ( EXCEPT FOR HEAVILY OFF CENTER PRESSED RECORDS ) - and that is less than you can reasonably expect your phono cartridge stylus to be aligned to. In short - negligible. In real world conditions, with records that are anything but flat, SL arm is capable of approximating the theorethically desirable conditions for the stylus better than almost anything else - if and when cost is concerned, it stands alone.
   
  Obviously, it is a P - Mount T4P arm. Which means it takes only P mount cartridges that per standard have 6.0 gram weight and specified connector and dimensions. They SHOULD have the specified compliance - and here things begin to get dicey. There were VERY high end p-mount carts back in the day - how about Ortofon TMC-200 with fine line stylus on boron cantilever and 0.09 mV ( YOU READ RIGHT, BELOW 0.1 mV ) - but try as they might, compliance is too low in this otherwise superb cart to be really suitable for SL arm. Technics own original cart that came on the SL-10, the mighty EPC 310 MC, was and still is one of the very best carts ever made - regardless of mounting option. And one of the very very very very best carts, if not actually the very best of them all, was Technics EPC P100CMK4 - the lowest effective mass ever achieved with response past 120 kHz.
  These are in extremely short supply and hard to get, with correspondingly matching price.
   
  Today, the selection of p-mount carts is limited, but there are enough currently produced quality styli that are available for the p-mount carts as well as currently produced p-mount carts that getting a decent sounding p-mount is not Mission Impossible.


----------



## jsplice

I actually have the original Clearaudio Emotion, with the Grado Sonata Reference 1.  I also used to have a Virtuoso Wood.  While the Virtuoso may be better from a technical standpoint, I find the Grado to give that extra warmth to the sound that the Emotion seems to slightly take away.  So if you're thinking it sounds a bit dry now, I'd suggest sticking with the Grado for a bit.  I personally think the Grado sounds incredible; the way it resolves tone and presents a nice "thick" harmonic sound is fantastic.
   
   
  Quote: 





dosley01 said:


> New week, new TT!  Hello Marantz, good bye Music Hall.  Actually I'm not 100% sold on the TT15-S1, it's coming off a bit dry sounding compared to my Music Hall MMF-7 but it might just be setup or just getting used to the cleaner backgrounds.  I'm still debating on opening up the Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood cartridge but I've been so happy with my Grado Sonata that I think I'd be better off just selling the Virtuoso.


----------



## analogsurviver

Part 3 of the SLEEPING BEAUTY
   
  P Mount is in theory answer to all the prayers one might have regarding cart and arm adjustments. VTF, geometry, compatibility regarding compliance, etc, etc, etc - with removal and retightening of a single screw per cartridge change IF PERFECTION IN REAL WORLD WAS POSSIBLE - we all know this not to be the case, so p-mount can be a pretty nasty can of worms. PLURAL. 
   
  It is almost never exactly 6.0 g heavy. It almost never has stylus tip at the precise point as per standard - meaning geometry alignment will be slightly off in case the arm has perfect geometry to begin with. It can appreciably differ from the compliance - and compliance spec for p- mount is about the closest equivalent to snake legs in practice. The biggest offender and defect lies in on first glance trivial thing - the azimuth. Just because it SHOULD be perpendicular to the record surface does not mean it will be so in practice. Each and every component has its tolerances - and they add up or cancel each one out. The cartridge itself has following sources of error:
   
  1. the stylus itself
  2. the alignment of the stylus relative to the cantilever
  3. the alignment of the generator to the cantilever
  4. the alignment of 1-3 to the cartridge body and its mounting platform. 
   
  It is the same for any type of cartridge mount system. Catch (22 - an appropriate number we shall see further down in text ) is the fact that p mount does not assume provision for ANY adjustment - in some cases not even VTF. For p mount, you can add to the azimuth errors
   
  5. arm internal p mpount female connector ( will always be slightly oo either side )
  6. arm azimuth regarding its mounting platform.
   
  The only way it is possible to get azimuth right in a p mount table is through matching the arm with say an error of x degrees to a cartridge with an exactly opposite - x degree error. Since azimuth for really good performance ( separation above 35 dB symetrical for both channels ) is within one third of a degree in angle - this is no easy task. It sure is handy to have 22 turntables or arms and 22 cartridges - it is possible to mix and match until even the lowest grade of matching will yield quite an acceptable result. It is possible to get a few perfect results - I menaged to achieve a perfect symetry for the SLEEPING BEAUTY - separation in excess of 38 dB, symetrical, alignment so precise that even at 20 kHz the output from the cartridge was almost within the scope trace for both channels. Test record JVC TRS 1007. The entire contents of the CBS STR 112 record was tracked with aplomb - not a common practice, even with $$$ equipment. 
   
   

  The sting that really works as it should
   
  What follows is the pics you have probably not seen yet - how to measure VTF on Technics SL linear arm, how to use electronic stylus cleaner etc-
   
   

  The logic built into Technics SL table arm combo prevents anything that does not satisfy criteria - if for any reason TT  does not attain correct speed, it will not lower the arm to the record surface, and its arm  lift is actualy a spring that only under signal from reco0rd size and speed detectors being right actuates an electromagnet that lowers the arm and stylus into the groove. Actual measurement of VTF is of course not possible under such conditions. The same goes for stylus cleaning if the method involves lowering the stylus to the cleaning device with normal VTF. On the first generation of SL linears, the easiest solution is to use a piece of the machined wooden toothpick and wedging it into the lifting mechanism as shown in the pic above and in close up below
   

  It will give you the opportunity to correctly measure the VTF and cleanj stylus if lowering is required.


----------



## dosley01

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> I actually have the original Clearaudio Emotion, with the Grado Sonata Reference 1.  I also used to have a Virtuoso Wood.  While the Virtuoso may be better from a technical standpoint, I find the Grado to give that extra warmth to the sound that the Emotion seems to slightly take away.  So if you're thinking it sounds a bit dry now, I'd suggest sticking with the Grado for a bit.  I personally think the Grado sounds incredible; the way it resolves tone and presents a nice "thick" harmonic sound is fantastic.


 

 Thank you!  You confirmed what I had gathered from looking around.  I had a audio nirvana moment yesterday, and I think I finally got everything dialed in to a point where I can actually just listen instead of thinking about adjusting things.  I'm still stunned when I get to a silent part or lead in/out groove and everything is just dead quiet.  My Music Hall MMF-7 is definitely warmer sounding than the TT15 but I'm really learning to appreciate the blackness of the TT15.  I just hope the belt stretches a bit, mine is running fast at about 33.6 - 33.7.  I was thinking of trying it with my Music Hall Cruise Control which will accept AC motors up to 3 watts but the motor pulls 5 watts so I don't want to chance frying it.  I might try calling Roy at Music Hall and see what he thinks.  He'll probably come back with something along the lines of "Marantz?  What !@#$%^& crap, you need a Music Hall MMF- blankety blank."


----------



## analogsurviver

Part 4 of the SLEEPING BEAUTY
   
   

  Transcriptors Stylus Scales in close up action - 0.05 gram will deflect the bubble spirit level off the visible window ...
   
   

  Electronic Stylus Cleaner in action on the SL-DL 1 - CARE HAS TO BE TAKEN NOT TO CLOSE THE LID WHICH CARRIES THE ARM FULLY - the thickness of the record cleaner is obviously more tha that of a LP and it is possible to exceed the free vertical arm travel, resulting in a possible demage to the stylus.
   
  It is mandatory to position the arm where you want it in advance - by placing the record on the table and get the arm where required, lifting it up and UNPLUGGING TURNTABLE FROM THE MAINS. Then you use toothpick wedge and measure VTF, clean or whatever. NEVER work with TT in this way  under power - sooner or later you will do the uups - meaning your piggybank will get for one stylus lighter. The TT is smart - in the above pic you can see holes for sensors underneath, it will not start rotation or even lower the stylus if it does not have a record placed on the platter - if you disable lift and power does come up, arm will return to its starting rest position - dragging the stylus across the mat, most likely  sending it to ever hunting grounds.
   
  So - a million dollar question - how does it sound ?
   
  VERY difficult to give you a direct answer. It is an extremely complex machine, in a way it is the pinnacle of turntable design, it was made to price point, although SL-DL 1 is the best sounding of the bunch, a pretty basic Project RPM4 seen a couple of posts back can sonically make mincemeat out of STOCK unit. But this is an analogsirviver passion for the last 10 or so years, so read on the next part.
   
   

  The only "normal" pic of this example of SL-DL 1 - prior to polishing its lid to perfection. The scratch on the black part of the lid is not so severe in real life as it is on the photo.


----------



## analogsurviver

Part 5 of the SLEEPING BEAUTY
   
  The Technics tables in this series, as well as others, can have lots of structural resonances. They generally tend to sound thin, with the lack of body, some would say that they lack balls. Place a better cartridge on them - you will compound the problem - the better the cart, the more annoying the shortcomings of the stock table. It goes to the SP 10 MKII level - unfortunately never heard the MKIII, which should be better - but MKII has its set of flaws generally comparable to the ones of SL-DL 1, although lesser in degree.
   
  There are MANY internal changes in that SL-DL 1 in the photos - each and every one aimed at making the design mechanically quieter. It is not the Full Monty mod - far from it - yet it is the very first DD I ever heard to start sounding right. A check in the system of a friend with a very good SAFE ( Symetrical Air Friction Enclosure ) speakers who otherwise sells Project and VPI turntables using my mods of vintage Technics amplification confirmed what I heard with Stax Lambda Pro - this unassuming box is one of the world's greatest sounding TTs. It is quiet, it has impeccable speed, and it tracks and traces the information engraved in the grooves with hitherto unheard of precision. It sounds extremely stable, much like master tape - and it has unbelievable dynamic range. It does not sound light or without body - in fact, transients that come from this table have to be heard to be believed. It is perfectly capable of punching you in the stomach with bass - not many TTs regardless of price can do that. I was amazed that it does so well at low levels - as demonstrated with a guitar concerto by Giulani played by Pepe Romero on Philips - despite the fact that this one did not receive the outboard power supply that I otherwise consider mandatory. Outboard power supply lowers the noise levels in direct drive turntables so much that once experienced, it is really difficult to go back.
   
  A word about suspension on this table. Original Technics rubber legs with springs leave too much to be desired - I replaced them with squash balls. I have used the least bouncy squash ball available - the Dunlop http://www.racquetsource.com/Articles.asp?ID=249 The Pro ( Double yellow dot ) - simply put into cavities original removed legs left behind. You have to wait say half an hour for the balls to conform to the shape - both the stability and isolation of the resulting turntable will improve. 
   

  left hand front corner Dunlop double yellow dot squash ball
   
   

  right hand front side corner Dunlop double yellow dot squash ball


----------



## analogsurviver

Part 6 of the SLEEPING BEAUTY
   
  Troughout the listening, a 0.3 mm thick carbon fibre mat http://www.ebay.de/itm/Black-Diamond-Carbon-LP-Mat-/350104300160?pt=DE_TV_Video_Audio_Sonstige&hash=item5183d7aa80 was used. This one is pricey, but ocasionally the seller puts up an auction starting at 1 euro.
  This mat is worth whatever you will pay for it.
   
  Here the pics of the very ATN440MLa stylus used on the SL-DL1
   
   

   
   

   

  MICRO LINE ridge clearly visible
   
   

   

   

  Sorry for not so clear pictures, but getting the thing in focus is time consuming and can result in an "oops" before you know it - do not want to trash a perfect sylus just for photo reasons.


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Forget being out of focus I'm amazed you were able to get pictures like that in the first place


----------



## analogsurviver

Part 7 of the SLEEPING BEAUTY
   
   

   

   

  HERE YOU CAN SEE THE VERY CONTACT SURFACE WITH THE GROOVE OF THE MICRO LINE STYLUS - THE REFLECTED LIGHT LINE FOR THE RIGHT CHANNEL, ON ADJACENT SIDE THE SAME LINE SEEN AS DARKER SHADOW. SCANNING RADIUS OF 2.5 MICROMETERS
   
  I can confirm that SLEEPING BEAUTY works very well with Grado P- Mount cartidges. It DOES NOT perform the dreaded Grado dance. I did peek a bit in the contemporary MMF 7 vs Marantz/Clearudio table with Grado Sonata and Clearaudio Virtuoso debate. Much the same can be said regarding Grado and AT carts on the modified SL-DL 1. Grado has, despite inferiour technicalities, a very musically appealing performance and much of its tracking and tracing problems are apreciably ameliorated by the SL linear arm. Hum remains the issue as with any other Grado application, but I did not find it objectionable enough to preclude recommendation.
   
  I have for about 4-5 hours of music played by SL-DL1 as pictured recorded in DSD at 5.6 MHz on Korg MR1000 recorder. Files are LARGE - DSD at 5.6 MHz is 11 min audio = 1 GB. I hesitate to make them available, as the turntable is not yet a finished article and I do not know if it is legal to post recordings of LPs in such quality - do not want to infringe any copyrights etc. The sound of this table has analog resolution and almost the dynamic range of digital - here both attributes for both mediums are meant as positive. 
   
  I will record some of the same tracks with completely stock SL-DL1 using the same type of cartridge/stylus through the same preamp and recorder for reference. 
   
  Micro Line stylus  ATN440MLa in a linear arm will end up any debate regarding inner groove distortion - and the trackability of this combo means there will be no congestion during the finale of Mahler's Second Symphony. Or Keith Jarrett's Koeln Concerto that rarely gets played side 1 to the end on any turntable that has any issues at all.
   
  440 is known to lean to the bright side - but that is less pronounced here than in other instalations I have heard. Electrical loading for the cartridge was approx 170-180 pF into 33 kohm - this is reasonably achievable with low capacitance arm cables and removed any additional capacitance at the phono input. 33 kohm damps the HF peak and extends the HF response and I find this load as the best among reasonably achievable.
   
  This combination does not sound bright in a traditional sense of the word - but it will  definitely unearth so much detail hitherto unheard in the upper reaches that initially it might sound overwhelming - this is not mellow Shure sound for sure. We listened non stop for 5+ hours at concert levels, be it string quartet or Van Halen in full cry. There was not a hint of the listener fatigue - on the contrary, it was getting late and we had to finish the listening that would have otherwise progressed into the vee hours.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> The only "normal" pic of this example of SL-DL 1 - prior to polishing its lid to perfection. The scratch on the black part of the lid is not so severe in real life as it is on the photo.


 
   
  Just 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 woke up! Now enjoying _The Sleeping Beauty Series._ I was unable to zoom in on the record label to learn what you were playing. Billy Preston "I Wrote A Simple Song?" Okay, got "Zoom" to work...I wasn't even close!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Just
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  http://www.discogs.com/Elkie-Brooks-Pearls-II/release/2526410 
   
  B2 - killer version of Money with female vocal.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
 404! Oh no! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


  That's ok! Curiosity will lead me to a YT vid, perhaps.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





silent one said:


> 404! Oh no!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Currently cheating my Technics harem with Eminent Technology ET2 arm, "An Undisclosed Cartridge", AGI 511 preamp, Jan Meier portable kit with crosfeed, JVC HA-S500 phones - Elkie Brooks "Nights in White Satin". A bit less extrovert SQ than the Sleeping Beauty, yet musically rewarding in somewhat different way.
   
  It was Cassandra Wilson an hour ago, and will end up this evening probably with some cello - Casals, Dupre ...


----------



## Jasper9395

Rega P3-24 with Goldring 2200 cartridge. This is a very rhythmic player, it really get your feet tapping. Right now I am interested in fitting it with a Grado cartridge. Does anyone have any thoughts on what Grado cartridge to get without spending too much. Say best value for money below 150 USD?


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





jasper9395 said:


> Rega P3-24 with Goldring 2200 cartridge. This is a very rhythmic player, it really get your feet tapping. Right now I am interested in fitting it with a Grado cartridge. Does anyone have any thoughts on what Grado cartridge to get without spending too much. Say best value for money below 150 USD?


 
  http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-375786.html


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Currently cheating my Technics harem with Eminent Technology ET2 arm, "An Undisclosed Cartridge", AGI 511 preamp, Jan Meier portable kit with crosfeed, JVC HA-S500 phones - Elkie Brooks "Nights in White Satin". A bit less extrovert SQ than the Sleeping Beauty, yet musically rewarding in somewhat different way.
> 
> *It was Cassandra Wilson an hour ago, and will end up this evening probably with some cello - Casals, Dupre ...*


 
   
  Ring him up...we got a winner!!!


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





jasper9395 said:


> Rega P3-24 with Goldring 2200 cartridge. This is a very rhythmic player, it really get your feet tapping. Right now I am interested in fitting it with a Grado cartridge. Does anyone have any thoughts on what Grado cartridge to get without spending too much. Say best value for money below 150 USD?


 
   
  Unless you're willing to pay for the wood-body Reference series, I would suggest just keeping the Goldring. The Ortofon 2M series performs very well on that arm too.


----------



## Jasper9395

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Unless you're willing to pay for the wood-body Reference series, I would suggest just keeping the Goldring. The Ortofon 2M series performs very well on that arm too.


 
  Ok that is interesting. I would have through the cheaper Grado cartridges could compete with it. What I am looking for is something that has a little more oomph than the goldring while still being insightful. Maybe that is not possible on a tight budget.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





jasper9395 said:


> Ok that is interesting. I would have through the cheaper Grado cartridges could compete with it. What I am looking for is something that has a little more oomph than the goldring while still being insightful. Maybe that is not possible on a tight budget.


 
  Not exactly cheaper Grados can do it. If you can source a low impedance body ( Signature 8,
  9 mH inductance ) at reasonable price, any stylus from 8MZ up will sound great. But TOTL, XTZ is serious money and law of diminishing returns is still in force.
   
  Wood bodied versions without user replaceable styli are much higher priced for the same stylus quality. Just look how much $ is needed for the first nude mounted stylus in wooden line and compare it with the price of the first nude mounted stylus in the removable line. Removable stylus line can be a very cost effective solution.
   
  If you want a special Grado, there is always http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=258&Itemid=226&74a0ad6b5f7a1df0ef4ab98b8fffbb41=386bab211b01952ab93d59dc16ac9c12
   
  If you want the very best stylus on Grado: KAB Gold1 http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/grado.htm
   
  It really boils down to $ and "sweet spot" Grado can be a very enjoyable experience. Grado can be VERY love/hate affair, depending on tonearm, system, listener preferences, etc - so before splashing serious money, try an inexpensive version to see if the house sound suits you. If you do not like say $ 70 Grado at all, there is litle chance you will be tempted to try Statement. I only menaged to get to hear the first woody with nude mounted stylus, IIRC that is Sonata.


----------



## matthewh133

Hey guys, incredible thread. So much knowledge to be gained and so many beautiful photos.
   
  I've been collecting vinyl of my favorite albums over the past few years and looking to get my first TT.
   
  Found this on eBay and I'm wondering what you guys think price-wise and on the condition of it:
   
  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251243345523?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
   
  Tossing up between maybe getting this or maybe a Rega RP3 or RP1.


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





matthewh133 said:


> Hey guys, incredible thread. So much knowledge to be gained and so many beautiful photos.
> 
> I've been collecting vinyl of my favorite albums over the past few years and looking to get my first TT.
> 
> ...


 

 I'd have to say straight up, there are better hi-fi focused tables out there for $800.


----------



## ]eep

This Linn Axis would be a far better table, and 300 AUD cheaper to boot.
This Pro-Ject Xpression MkIII is even 100 cheaper and much, much better. New and warantee.And has the looks too. Incl Ortofon 2M Red.


----------



## matthewh133

blackenedplague said:


> I'd have to say straight up, there are better hi-fi focused tables out there for $800.



Like?


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

See the post above yours


----------



## RamblinE

Not anywhere near the best table. Gemini PT2000 direct drive. I know I've posted it before, with the Grado Green1 at the end of the arm. Well I added something called the 'Grado Longhorn' mod to the front of the cartridge body and I don't know how or why but tracking of the inner grooves has improved immensely!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





rambline said:


> Not anywhere near the best table. Gemini PT2000 direct drive. I know I've posted it before, with the Grado Green1 at the end of the arm. Well I added something called the 'Grado Longhorn' mod to the front of the cartridge body and I don't know how or why but tracking of the inner grooves has improved immensely!


 
  Longhorn - 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 !


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Could you elaborate what that is please?


----------



## RamblinE

It makes my Grado Green1 distort less towards the inner grooves. 
   
  Guy on Audiokarma told me (after the fact, of course) that it compensates for bearing jitter. 
   
  I was "modifying" one of my wire shelves today with a hacksaw and only after wards thought of something I might be able to use the left over hacked-off wire for. Affixed carefully with superglue making sure I wasn't permanently gluing the stylus to the cartridge body in the process.


----------



## Silent One

Love that coloured vinyl!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





rambline said:


> It makes my Grado Green1 distort less towards the inner grooves.
> 
> Guy on Audiokarma told me (after the fact, of course) that it compensates for bearing jitter.
> 
> I was "modifying" one of my wire shelves today with a hacksaw and only after wards thought of something I might be able to use the left over hacked-off wire for. Affixed carefully with superglue making sure I wasn't permanently gluing the stylus to the cartridge body in the process.


 
  "Longhorning" since originally described by Frank Van Alstine in his Audio Basics in early 80s.
  The only arm bearing without "jitter" is unipivot ( and Schroeder etc ) - and even with unipivot, Longhorn will still improve sound, by reducing the effects of arm tube/headshell joint etc flexibilities. Saw tons of prototypes by Ortofon - but obviously, the looks kept them from becoming comercially available product.
   
  Although Longhorn will have the most effect/improvement on lower end gear, it can squeeze that last n-th degree of performance even from the finest gear available.


----------



## RamblinE

I'm just shocked by the level of improvement. It's not perfect but it makes LPs much easier to listen to on my K701s which never hide any faults ever.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





rambline said:


> I'm just shocked by the level of improvement. It's not perfect but it makes LPs much easier to listen to on my K701s which never hide any faults ever.


 
  Usual reaction. Going back to "Non-Longhorn" cart will prove difficult.


----------



## RamblinE

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Usual reaction. Going back to "Non-Longhorn" cart will prove difficult.


 
  Well I'm hoping not to have this table next year... 
   
  That super-cheap U-Turn Audio Orbit when it goes on sale (I missed the Kickstarter campaign) is supposed to have a unipivot arm


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Absolutely eyeballing the Orbit, but was concerned about the price being too good to be true


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





rambline said:


> Well I'm hoping not to have this table next year...
> 
> That super-cheap U-Turn Audio Orbit when it goes on sale (I missed the Kickstarter campaign) is supposed to have a unipivot arm


 
  A super duper version of Longhorn would not be out of place on any cart/arm - regardless of price.
   
  I kinda forgot about U-Turn Kickstarter - because it can not (as of yet ) cross the Pond. 220/240 V 50 Hz AC in Europe would require EU version, after all the shipping and customs, its price would likely be double whatever it will cost in the US. And going against Regas and Projects, which are well established in the market,  at whatever about similar price,  would prove difficult. 
   
  Which all does not distract one bit from the appeal this deck has. Inverted main bearing and unipivot arm should sound great and make unit to unit consistency very good - something that can not be done using anything else - given the price level.


----------



## penmarker

Was hoping to get some suitable tubes to make the Longhorn myself, but this shop/office I'm working in (R&D for an exhibition display company) don't have the right materials.
   
  RamblinE when you mentioned about the inner groove tracking improvement, I jumped a little and just go, "screw it, I *need *this."


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





penmarker said:


> Was hoping to get some suitable tubes to make the Longhorn myself, but this shop/office I'm working in (R&D for an exhibition display company) don't have the right materials.
> 
> RamblinE when you mentioned about the inner groove tracking improvement, I jumped a little and just go, "screw it, I *need *this."


 
  Inner groove tracking distortion does not get any better with the Longhorn - if the alignment of the cart and stylus remain constant. But going is so tough at the inner grooves that any reduction of unwanted torsional movements is perceived as reduction of inner groove distortion.
   
  Seriously, if anyone is toying with an idea of upgrade of a say $ 500 deck with something not exceeding say $2K - do try the Longhorn first. It may well spare you a coin or two.


----------



## KT66

My Lyra Clavis DC playing Ziggy Stardust red vinyl.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





kt66 said:


> My Lyra Clavis DC playing Ziggy Stardust red vinyl.


 
  I remember the first Lyra, the original Clavis, as one of the first carts to achieve extremely low noise when playing the vinyl groove. Ticks and pops went quite a few nothes down with it. Measured superb too - beter than subsequent incarnations IMO.


----------



## RamblinE

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Inner groove tracking distortion does not get any better with the Longhorn - if the alignment of the cart and stylus remain constant. But going is so tough at the inner grooves that any reduction of unwanted torsional movements is perceived as reduction of inner groove distortion.
> 
> Seriously, if anyone is toying with an idea of upgrade of a say $ 500 deck with something not exceeding say $2K - do try the Longhorn first. It may well spare you a coin or two.


 
  I have been tweaking the alignment for months now with a simple Ortofon alignment protractor that my hifi sales acquaintance recommended. It was $6 at Quest For Sound. The body and cantilever are as square as I can physically make them. 
   
  I'm always learning something new about vinyl setup however I think I've got the alignment spot on right now. Not ruling out the possibility of being wrong but I'm confident this time.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





rambline said:


> I have been tweaking the alignment for months now with a simple Ortofon alignment protractor that my hifi sales acquaintance recommended. It was $6 at Quest For Sound. The body and cantilever are as square as I can physically make them.
> 
> I'm always learning something new about vinyl setup however I think I've got the alignment spot on right now. Not ruling out the possibility of being wrong but I'm confident this time.


 
  If you glued the Longhorn paralel/perpendicular to the cart, then your alignment must be very precise - it is visible from your photo from that distance!
  I doubt it is not spot on.
   
  If the Longhorn is mounted precisely, that is to say perpendicular to the cartridge in all 3 dimensions, it is a child's play to see if the cart is laterally aligned at any alignment point - you have 5-7 cm 2-3 " flat reference surface, far easier to work with than just the front of the cart that is in best case scenario 20 mm wide, but usually half that. If precisely mounted, Longhorn not only improves sound, it is a great aid for correct alignment. One reason more to do it right.
   
  You can not see much tracking angle error with pivoted arms due to cart ( front ) being so small. With Longhorn, you wil imediately see there are two points that are accurate only - everywhere else it is visible from great distance that there is an error.
   
  As always - enjoy your music !


----------



## Destroysall

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> A super duper version of Longhorn would not be out of place on any cart/arm - regardless of price.
> 
> I kinda forgot about U-Turn Kickstarter - because it can not (as of yet ) cross the Pond. 220/240 V 50 Hz AC in Europe would require EU version, after all the shipping and customs, its price would likely be double whatever it will cost in the US. And going against Regas and Projects, which are well established in the market,  at whatever about similar price,  would prove difficult.
> 
> Which all does not distract one bit from the appeal this deck has. Inverted main bearing and unipivot arm should sound great and make unit to unit consistency very good - something that can not be done using anything else - given the price level.


 

 True, but its still worth checking out. Steven Guttenberg (CNET) reserved a table, so I'm sure he'll post a review once he can.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





destroysall said:


> True, but its still worth checking out. Steven Guttenberg (CNET) reserved a table, so I'm sure he'll post a review once he can.


 
  Sure - in the US it would be VERY unwise to overlook it if in the market at anything the price for the new turntable. Probably the only new deck that offers  about the same value for money as better vintage options that can be found at about this price.
   
  I am curious to what level of cartridge quality would still be reasonably to go with this deck. If it lives up to expectations from the operating principles, that could go quite high. As to reviews - there will be no shortage of those. Who would not like to write a review of present day "Ford T" of turntables ?


----------



## calipilot227

Seeing as it ships with the Ortofon Omega, it might be a good candidate for the OM10/20/30 Super as the tonearm is likely optimized for high-compliance carts. Something like a DL-110 on the other hand might not be a good match. Don't have the specs on the arm yet, so it'll be tough to say for sure.


----------



## RamblinE

I was thinking I would try my Grado Green with it as well as buying an AT95E for it. See which sound I like more.


----------



## analogsurviver

From the "airplane", this is relatively low effective mass arm - approx 7-8 g. I am glad they did not try to go lower by incorporating too light and flimpsy headshell - this one does look sound.
   
  There is no mention of possibility to adjust the height of the arm or in other words, the VTA. That may limit the quality of the cartridge that can be ultimately used. Positioning the motor to the most extreme position away from the cartridge means that even Grado will have a chance of relative hum free performance. Or LOMC cartridges - if the arm is really as light as above guesstimate, a Denon DL 304 might work well here; it has too high compliance and mass for most modern arms to be really compatible. 
   
  Some form of suspension/vibration control will be needed - the whole table looks to be light and it is very difficult to construct "feet" that isolate well enough with so light (15 lbs) a load.
   
  Still - $150 ( + shipping ) for a viable record player that should not display any gross vices is ridiculously good. But remember - a really decent stylus that can ( and should ) be retrofitted to the supplied Ortofon Omega cartridge can run you as much or more ( Ortofon Stylus 20, 30, 40 ).


----------



## penmarker

Found a random cable tie in my pencil case, so I decided to try it out.
  Initial impressions, not so day-night improvement. I suck at AB-ing, but I feel like it sounds better.
   
  At least this cart tracks better than the previous cart. Inner groove distortion is still present but not as severe.


----------



## Skylab




----------



## MorbidToaster

Oh man. Playing pictures discs.
   
  dangerzone.wav


----------



## Skylab

This ain't no ordinary picture disc! 180g vinyl reissue. A bit noisier than some but still the best Maiden has ever sounded!
   
  one more look:


----------



## MorbidToaster

Are these the new reissues? They're all over my local shop. What are you comparing to?
   
  I didn't even pay much attention...Who mastered these new ones?


----------



## Skylab

Yup, new reissues on UMe.  Much better sounding than the CD remasters of a couple years ago.


----------



## MorbidToaster

> Each picture disc is packaged is cut from the original album master tapes


 
   
  WOAH. This actually might be on my list now. 
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yup, new reissues on UMe.  Much better sounding than the CD remasters of a couple years ago.


----------



## calipilot227

I NEED that album! Doesn't come cheap though


----------



## matthewh133

Just purchased my first TT (a 1200 mk2 in black). Mint condition with dust cover and only paid $650, which is good as far as prices in Australia go. Heading over to pick it up today


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





matthewh133 said:


> Just purchased my first TT (a 1200 mk2 in black). Mint condition with dust cover and only paid $650, which is good as far as prices in Australia go. Heading over to pick it up today


 
  That would be a 1210 mk2


----------



## awsanderson

new to vinyl


  Pro-ject 9.2 and Sumiko Blackbird, my headphones may never come off again


----------



## MorbidToaster

I guess it's a start


----------



## matthewh133

Quote: 





blackenedplague said:


> That would be a 1210 mk2


 
   
  Nah it's actually a 1200 mk2. Says so on the front


----------



## everybest

Braun Atelier (Dieter Rams) - turntable, cassette player, radio, and a Sonos Connect hooked up to the auxiliary port.


----------



## mark_h

Quote: 





awsanderson said:


> new to vinyl
> 
> 
> Pro-ject 9.2 and Sumiko Blackbird, my headphones may never come off again


 

 Congrats  It's a slippery slope!


----------



## MorbidToaster

He skipped off a long time ago. He just dropped $3400 on a completely new rig. 
   
  That Blackbird puts my cart to shame right now. I'm kind of ashamed of myself.
   
  Quote: 





mark_h said:


> Congrats  It's a slippery slope!


----------



## mark_h

It's always time for a new cart!
   
  Quote:


morbidtoaster said:


> He skipped off a long time ago. He just dropped $3400 on a completely new rig.
> 
> That Blackbird puts my cart to shame right now. I'm kind of ashamed of myself.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





mark_h said:


> It's always time for a new cart!
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
  Just checked the specs for Blackbird - crosscoil with boron cantilever, marred only by the elliptical stylus; not bad at all, as all Sumikos that passed through my hands were precision products, really made with great precision - if this one is no worse than its predecessors in this regard, should be really nice at the price.


----------



## Clayton SF

Spoiler: Sumiko%20Blackbird



Quote:


awsanderson said:


> new to vinyl
> 
> 
> Pro-ject 9.2 and Sumiko Blackbird, my headphones may never come off again


   


   

  Awesome. That Sumiko Blackbird looks lethal... nice!


----------



## matthewh133

everybest said:


> Braun Atelier (Dieter Rams) - turntable, cassette player, radio, and a
> Sonos Connect hooked up to the auxiliary port.




Holy crap, that looks mighty expensive. Nice though.


----------



## MorbidToaster

They're really not all that expensive, actually. They sure do look nice and modern though.
   
  Quote: 





matthewh133 said:


> Holy crap, that looks mighty expensive. Nice though.


----------



## everybest

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> They're really not all that expensive, actually. They sure do look nice and modern though.


 
   
  Yeah, it's not too bad, but it's a bitch to get one to the states.


----------



## MorbidToaster

There's a set (minus speakers and CDP) up on eBay with free shipping for $700 BIN. From Seden.
  It's redone as well.
   
  You could get a good condition CDP and round it off at 1k. 
   
  Quote: 





everybest said:


> Yeah, it's not too bad, but it's a bitch to get one to the states.


----------



## penmarker

Braun turntable designed by the designer's designer, Dieter Rams? Congratulations, you win at life. Mods/Staffs please shut down head-fi.
   
  p/s: Not 2 weeks ago I had to rummage through his product designs.


----------



## s4s4s4




----------



## Audio Addict

s4s4s4 said:


>





Very nice!!!!


----------



## MrQ




----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Just checked the specs for Blackbird - crosscoil with boron cantilever, marred only by the elliptical stylus; not bad at all, as all Sumikos that passed through my hands were precision products, really made with great precision - if this one is no worse than its predecessors in this regard, should be really nice at the price.


 
  Supposedly the Blackbird has a totally dynamic and authoritative sound. It's robust and loud. No prissy prissing around here, but solid thunder for your phono-pre. I have been told that the Blackbird is what I need!


----------



## awsanderson

I really like my Blackbird but I haven't heard many other carts to compare it to


----------



## parbaked

RB250 tonearm sporting Benz Micro Silver...
   
  BTW did anyone else mistake the Dyson cordless vacuum ad on the HF homepage for a tonearm?


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> BTW did anyone else mistake the Dyson cordless vacuum ad on the HF homepage for a tonearm?


 
   
  I did!


----------



## Skylab

MrQ, that's a nice looking PL-570! And the PL-570 is a very fine TT.


----------



## MrQ

Quote: 





skylab said:


> MrQ, that's a nice looking PL-570! And the PL-570 is a very fine TT.


 

 Thanks. I can't wait to get a decent cartridge on it. I think I need to cut back on my LP purchases first.


----------



## Greyson




----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





greyson said:


> Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

That is a sexy receiver


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





blackenedplague said:


> That is a sexy receiver


 
  I agree this is a tidy arrangement with sexy looks - but placing a turntable ditectly on a receiver is about the worst place you can put it on. 
   
  The receiver will vibrate slightly at the mains frequency. It WILL emanate electromagnetic noise into cartrridge - the lower the output of the cartridge, the worse it will be. It is crazy to find out that a tuner or CD player etc, although on standby/off BUT PLUGGED INTO WALL OUTPUT, can and will emanate enough electromagnetic garbage to compromise a top notch phono preamp in hum performance if in close proximity - let alone the turntable. The heat rising from a working receiver is also not optimal heating of your turntable - very quickly it gets too hot for the suspension of phono cartridges that are most normally made out of butyl - and this material has exactly needed properties within say + - 2 degrees centigrade ( if generous - if not , even less tolerance ).
   
  ( Wrote a guy guilty of the same felony when there is no other option in tight space arrangements ).


----------



## RamblinE

Quote: 





greyson said:


>


 
  Geez. Stop having such a nice spot!


----------



## Greyson

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> I agree this is a tidy arrangement with sexy looks - but placing a turntable ditectly on a receiver is about the worst place you can put it on.
> 
> The receiver will vibrate slightly at the mains frequency. It WILL emanate electromagnetic noise into cartrridge - the lower the output of the cartridge, the worse it will be. It is crazy to find out that a tuner or CD player etc, although on standby/off BUT PLUGGED INTO WALL OUTPUT, can and will emanate enough electromagnetic garbage to compromise a top notch phono preamp in hum performance if in close proximity - let alone the turntable. The heat rising from a working receiver is also not optimal heating of your turntable - very quickly it gets too hot for the suspension of phono cartridges that are most normally made out of butyl - and this material has exactly needed properties within say + - 2 degrees centigrade ( if generous - if not , even less tolerance ).
> 
> ( Wrote a guy guilty of the same felony when there is no other option in tight space arrangements ).


 
   
  Well, I use the phono stage integrated into the reciever so I think internal classifies as "close proximity". The reciever and the table both have very good shielding and I don't hear any hum or background noise when the system is powered up. Perhaps it's creating some amount of interference but I judge things by what I can actaully hear.
   
  The heat complaint is totally valid but this is what I have room for. There's a solid inch and a half of clearance between the turntable and the top of the reciever which dissipates enough heat for the length of time that I run the turntable and while not ideal, it has not caused me any problems thus far. If the turntable is in use for longer than 30-40 minutes I routinely check the underside for heat buildup.
   
   
  Quote: 





rambline said:


> Geez. Stop having such a nice spot!


 
   
  Sorry! Thanks for the compliments from you and everyone else.


----------



## 17trevop




----------



## mav52

Mirco-Seiki BL-91 Sony pua 1600s arm, AT-33 MC


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Look what the cat just dragged in! Yeah the lighting in my room is pretty **** and i took it with my phone, so the picture is kind of noisy.
   
  VPI Aries with Classic 3 Tonearm....Now i just need a cartridge and my Preamp to arrive so i can give it a spin.


----------



## MrQ

Quote: Originally Posted by *mav52* 


   
   
  That photo matches the one on ebay. Did you buy that one? Very nice.


----------



## MrQ

oops.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





greyson said:


> Well, I use the phono stage integrated into the reciever so I think internal classifies as "close proximity". The reciever and the table both have very good shielding and I don't hear any hum or background noise when the system is powered up. Perhaps it's creating some amount of interference but I judge things by what I can actaully hear.
> 
> The heat complaint is totally valid but this is what I have room for. There's a solid inch and a half of clearance between the turntable and the top of the reciever which dissipates enough heat for the length of time that I run the turntable and while not ideal, it has not caused me any problems thus far. If the turntable is in use for longer than 30-40 minutes I routinely check the underside for heat buildup.
> 
> ...


 
  OK, I am not ( yet ? ) a great opera fan and have to condition myself to the idea of listening to the entire Wagner's Ring in one go, but 30-40 min is a single LP and I do like to listen to 2LP live recordings uninterupted by technicalities, such as heat build up etc. 
   
  Since this is head-fi, supposedly we should listen at least sometimes with headphones - if nothing else, they are useful for checking for hum etc - you will be able to pick up any "gremlins" far easier than with loudspeakers. What is "barely passable on TOTL headphones" will be usually superb on speakers - it is crazy how much everything is improved when you get rid of  "inaudible" hum - but only after you have got rid of it, it is possible to appreciate the true improvement.  Try some "high heels" for the TT - couple of inches can sometimes produce wonders .


----------



## CrazyRay

Here is a photo of my cartridge, I bought it new in 1993, still sounds great!
   
_"Madrigal (Mark Levinson) Carnegie One Moving Coil Cartridge

 This is a 0.2 mV cartridge that is prized for its transparency._

_This was once Harry Pearson's reference cartridge.

 The sound is full with a lush midrange and excellent imaging._"


----------



## Skylab

CrazyRay and Soup, very nice stuff! Soup looking forward to more on your Aries.
   
  mav52 that's a beautiful Micro Seiki.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





skylab said:


> CrazyRay and Soup, very nice stuff! Soup looking forward to more on your Aries.
> 
> mav52 that's a beautiful Micro Seiki.


 
   
  And I will be more than willing to share. Though its a bit daunting right now. I asked you about a custom protractor that he had, and you said i should definitely get it. The thing came with two different tone arm alignment jigs from VPI. But then it also came with a BEST Tractor(one of these http://www.mintlp.com/) custom to this table/tonearm mirrored thingamajig...apparently its like a half day process to set up the cartridge with it he was saying. Im hoping i can get 9PinTube to come over and help me get this thing ready to go, its damn sexy looking though!


----------



## Greyson

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> OK, I am not ( yet ? ) a great opera fan and have to condition myself to the idea of listening to the entire Wagner's Ring in one go, but 30-40 min is a single LP and I do like to listen to 2LP live recordings uninterupted by technicalities, such as heat build up etc.
> 
> Since this is head-fi, supposedly we should listen at least sometimes with headphones - if nothing else, they are useful for checking for hum etc - you will be able to pick up any "gremlins" far easier than with loudspeakers. What is "barely passable on TOTL headphones" will be usually superb on speakers - it is crazy how much everything is improved when you get rid of  "inaudible" hum - but only after you have got rid of it, it is possible to appreciate the true improvement.  Try some "high heels" for the TT - couple of inches can sometimes produce wonders .


 
   
  I've never had an issue with heat, but if i've been running the turntable for 40 minutes i'll put my hand underneath and check if it feels like a sauna in there, which has yet to happen leading me to conclude that the Sony simply disspates heat very well. My room is cool and the clearance is adaquate, i've seen people suffocate their equipment in racks and shelving.
   
  I do use headphones on this rig quite frequently and I took a listen just now specifically testing for hum and I did not notice anything with my Denon AH-D2000's. The only thing I noticed was hiss when I turned the knob all the way up and that happens wether a source is plugged in or not, but anything past 5 is ear-splitting anyway.


----------



## Redcarmoose

The music was pretty loud at this point.


----------



## mav52

yes I did, had to take to a shop to have the unit setup, it's really nice..


----------



## MrQ

Quote: 





mav52 said:


> yes I did, had to take to a shop to have the unit setup, it's really nice..


 

 I got mine from ebay recently as well (shipped from the US, just don't ask). When I get a new cart i'll try and reset it up myself. I've ordered the protractor, azimuth level and everything.
   
  I swear if I didn't have to buy from the US I wouldn't have to spend half the cost on shipping


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> Here is a photo of my cartridge, I bought it new in 1993, still sounds great!
> 
> _"Madrigal (Mark Levinson) Carnegie One Moving Coil Cartridge
> 
> ...


 
  This was and still is a great cartridge.
   
  Take a really good care of it, perfect examples are simply divine. Retipping is possible, but not up to the original quality. Its Micro Ridge stylus is capable of say 1000 hours before threatening demage to the record.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> Look what the cat just dragged in! Yeah the lighting in my room is pretty **** and i took it with my phone, so the picture is kind of noisy.
> 
> VPI Aries with Classic 3 Tonearm....Now i just need a cartridge and my Preamp to arrive so i can give it a spin.


 
   
  What are you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 feeding this Cat?!


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Maybe i have a pet Snow Leopard


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> Look what the cat just dragged in! Yeah the lighting in my room is pretty **** and i took it with my phone, so the picture is kind of noisy.
> 
> VPI Aries with Classic 3 Tonearm....Now i just need a cartridge and my Preamp to arrive so i can give it a spin.


 
   
   
   
   
!!!


----------



## KT66

A rare dust free picture of my system, 
   
  Turntable is Linn LP12/Ekos2/Lyra Clavis DC/Linto/Lingo2
  all on Mana tables.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

redcarmoose said:


> souprknowva said:
> 
> 
> > Look what the cat just dragged in! Yeah the lighting in my room is pretty **** and i took it with my phone, so the picture is kind of noisy.
> ...




Lol does my picture offend you redcarmoose?


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> Lol does my picture offend you redcarmoose?


 
_Just the simple Latin use of the mark._
 History  One theory of its origin is that it was a Latin exclamation of joy (_io_), written with the I above the o.[_citation needed_]
  The exclamation mark was first introduced into English printing in the 15th century, and was called the_* "sign of admiration or exclamation"[1] or the "note of admiration" until the mid-17th century;[2] admiration referred to its Latin sense of wonderment.*_
  The exclamation mark did not have its own dedicated key on standard manual typewriters before the 1970s. Instead, one typed a period, backspaced, and typed an apostrophe.[3] In the 1950s, secretarial dictation and typesetting manuals in America referred to the mark as "bang,"[4][5] perhaps from comic books where the ! appeared in dialogue balloons to represent a gun being fired,[6] although the nickname probably emerged from letterpress printing.[7] This bang usage is behind the titles of the interrobang, an uncommon typographic character, and a shebang line, a feature of Unix computer systems


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I was giving you a hard time duder  Im excited to be able to listen to it though, but itll be next wednesday before i can


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> I was giving you a hard time duder  Im excited to be able to listen to it though, but itll be next wednesday before i can


 

 Waiting is the best part!


----------



## CrazyRay

Here are a couple of new photos of my Michell with the Thorens Stabiliser.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I love that Michell table. The spinning weights is so cool. It was (and still is) a consideration I looked at before I got the Amadeus. I'd get it in black though.


----------



## Eee Pee

It's the perfect hypnotizing device, as if a regular TT isn't already.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

The LP of stadium arcadium truly does sound freaking amazing

Edit: I seriously need one of those record stand things you've got MorbidToaster...


----------



## penmarker

It's an easel. You can get that for cheap at art stores for small canvas or prints.


----------



## MorbidToaster

penmarker said:


> It's an easel. You can get that for cheap at art stores for small canvas or prints.




Yup. Mine came free with some little prints an bought on clearance. I tossed those and kept the easel.


----------



## RamblinE

Getting ready for the arrival of my Headroom Micro Amp and for the fact that my girlfriend is going to be using my current preamp when that happens, I blew the dust off of something in the closet and put it to work as a phono preamplifier. As I remember correctly using it for input switching resulted in some awfully hallow/screechy sound. Using it solely as a phono stage however is yielding some interesting results. It's a $50 TC-754. It's not so wildly underpriced for the setup I'm sticking it into seeing as I'm only using a Gemini direct-drive w/ a Grado Green attached. It's much brighter than the ART DJpre or the onboard stage in my preamp. This is good because I had been kind of feeling down thinking that the Grado Green rolled off the highs way too much. So far I'm kind of happy but it's only been a day since I plugged it in. I'll get back to this in a week or so to say whether or not I still like it. Here's a picture from Amazon.


----------



## CrazyRay




----------



## calipilot227

Nice RX2 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It's a very fine sounding table. Mine sadly has issues with the cueing/return mechanism (sometimes it works, sometimes the tonearm just returns without playing).


----------



## CrazyRay

Thanks calipilot227, I use the RX2 for albums that are not quite good enough for the Michell.

 The Michell can be too revealing on non-superior vinyl, especially with the Mark Levinson Carnegie One cartridge.

 The B&O smooths out the lesser quality vinyl and makes them quite listenable.  

 Plus, it also has the built in 45 adapter.
   
  Major plus!


----------



## calipilot227

Also, are those _two_ Nakamichi tape decks I see?


----------



## CrazyRay

Yup, an RX-505 & RX-202.


----------



## Silent One

Diggin' the close-ups CrazyRay, especially 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 the Nak gears!


----------



## parbaked

My Rega P2 got a new pair of shoes (well three) from Mr. Lim...


----------



## Silent One

They look functionally fantastic!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> Yup, an RX-505 & RX-202.


 
  I see you have Kenwood KT-917 tuner - a great choice. I suspect you do quite some recording of live FM broadcasts on the Nakas. Which tape do you use for that purpose - and most important - where do you get it from, if it is not an ancient supply bought many many full moons ago ?
   
  Curious also regarding the integrated amp - looks like one of the better Kenwoods ?


----------



## CrazyRay

Good morning guys, sorry for derailing this thread.

 I'll post a couple of photos then we can get back on track.

 Hi analogsurviver, I use Maxell XL II-S tape, and yes it is an accent supply from many moons ago.

 I see them offered on amazon and ebay, they shouldn't be too hard to find.

 The Jazz Record Mart in Chicago has a vast selection of pre-recorded blues tapes that I have been collecting for many years now.

 Some of the recordings are quite outstanding!

 That is what I mainly play on the Nakamichi's.

 The pre-amp is a Kenwood KA-907.

 I haven't recorded much lately, but when I do it's usually vinyl to tape or vinyl to reel-to-reel.
   

   

   

   
   

   
*Now, back on track!*


----------



## Redcarmoose

Is that a beer cooler?


----------



## CrazyRay

Hi Redcarmoose, that's actually a record case for 45's.


----------



## CrazyRay

Trying to stay on topic, I consider record cleaning to part of the turntable theme.
 Here is my VPI 16.5.


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> Hi Redcarmoose, that's actually a record case for 45's.


 
  well that'd be nice


----------



## MrQ

Quote: 





crazyray said:


>


 
   
  Loving the Le Corbusier three seater, the Wassily Chair by Marcel Breuer and of course the Eames


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





mrq said:


> Loving the Le Corbusier three seater, the Wassily Chair by Marcel Breuer and of course the Eames


 
   
  Yes that looks like a *CrazyNice* environment for enjoying one's vinyl!


----------



## ProcessJunkie

*CrazyRay*

 That is a insanely beautiful listening place you got, and stellar taste for design, too.


----------



## CrazyRay

Thanks guys!
   
  Here are a couple of more shots of the furniture.
   
  It's good to see some furniture lovers on this forum!
   
  The tables are by Alfons Bach, (mid 1940's)


----------



## MrQ

^ That's the sort of room you walk into and quietly nod in approval.


----------



## CrazyRay

Thanks MrQ, and not a TV in sight!


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> Here are a couple of more shots of the furniture.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I can imagine freestyle jazz playing on the record player just looking at that room.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





processjunkie said:


> *CrazyRay*
> 
> That is a insanely beautiful listening place you got, and stellar taste for design, too.


 
  +1.


----------



## MorbidToaster

The chair...it's my dream chair. So many Head-fiers with one.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> Good morning guys, sorry for derailing this thread.
> 
> I'll post a couple of photos then we can get back on track.
> 
> ...


 
  Thank you for the answer. 
   
  Should you EVER get a chance to try Sony Super Metal Master cassette - do yourself a favour. It is insane how much better than anything else it is/was. Nakas get very good results with II ( chrome ) tapes - but real party is IV ( metal ). Punishing price back in the day, even more so in present time - but a comparison everyone will understand - using a high quality cassette deck with II tapes is the same as feeding a supercar with normal ocatane gasoline. No idea how "clever" your Nakas are regarding tape calibration etc - even if it means manual adjustment, still worth it. Sony SMM was simply the closest approximation to the perfect tape - it takes outrageously high signal levels, has extremely low amplitude modulation, etc, etc - which all translates into sound so good very few have ever had the pleasure of hearing. Master recordings from the mic will leave all but direct to disc vinyl in dust.


----------



## CrazyRay

Yes, I have heard of Sony Super Metal Master cassettes.

 Every once in awhile I check ebay but the prices are crazy (95.00)!

 I might just have to get one to say that I have one.

 They sure look purty!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> Yes, I have heard of Sony Super Metal Master cassettes.
> 
> Every once in awhile I check ebay but the prices are crazy (95.00)!
> 
> ...


 
  Well, TDK MA-XG looks only a hair less sexy ( no metal outer protective shell, extremely comparable ceramic cassette itself - these babies are HEAVY ) - yet in my experience, Sony SMM mops the floor with anything else, amplitude variation was considerably worse on TDK MA-XG. Sony SMM sounds "next to nothing".
   
  I have one C-90 only, had a chance to get 8 more, but at the approx EUR 100 a pop reluctantly had to decide to pass. A fair warning - if you get that "one" - it might prove to be habit forming ...to put in perspective - doubt there is or ever will be a phono cartridge so superiour to its peers as it is Sony SMM cassette tape.


----------



## s4s4s4

Great set-up crazyRay, don't really get the cassette thing except the coolness of the Nak decks. But again, beautiful set up and makes me realize maybe I need to spend less on my gear and little more on what I am sitting on or in.


----------



## Skylab

Ray if I bring some tapes and LPs and a six pack, can I come over? I just want to be photographed in that room, to prove I was there. It's got to be the coolest I've ever seen pics of.


----------



## CrazyRay

Sure you can Skylab, I'd love to hear your opinion of my systems sound! 
I'll buy some beer too, we can make a day out of it!


----------



## Skylab

Awesome, we'll have to set that up


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





s4s4s4 said:


> Great set-up crazyRay, don't really get the cassette thing except the coolness of the Nak decks. But again, beautiful set up and makes me realize maybe I need to spend less on my gear and little more on what I am sitting on or in.


 
  A tough one to swallow - but analog cassette at its best is anything but low cost car thingie of the past. A "typical high end cassette deck" will outperform a "typical high end turntable/record player" - and the thing that is Aichile's heel of record player combinations is called speed stability. In real world, with real vinyl, very few record players can meet, let alone exceed the performance of good cassette decks as far as speed stability is concerned. 
   
  Definitely agree with your second sentence.


----------



## BokononVolta

The 'show your headphone rig' thread turned into a vinyl thread.  And the vinyl thread turned into a cassette tape thread! lol
   
  Seriously cool looking room you have there Ray....


----------



## ProcessJunkie

CrazyRay,

 i'm curious, what's in the box on the table by the Eames?


----------



## CrazyRay

Hi ProcessJunkie, is the suspense killing you yet?

 Here you go.


----------



## CrazyRay

Now, lets talk turntable clamps and weights.


----------



## Destroysall

I'm afraid I don't fully understand.. I thought tape was a horrid way to listen to music due to how thin the roll is compared to say, reel-to-reel??


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> Now, lets talk turntable clamps and weights.


 
   
   
  OK...


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





destroysall said:


> I'm afraid I don't fully understand.. I thought tape was a horrid way to listen to music due to how thin the roll is compared to say, reel-to-reel??


 
  By "tape" you mean audio cassette tape ?


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> Hi ProcessJunkie, is the suspense killing you yet?
> 
> Here you go.


 
   
   
  Comon.....................
   
   
   
_*We really want to see your 8-track collection!*_


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> Now, lets talk turntable clamps and weights.


 
  J.A.Mitchell Clamp ( late, no stroboscope ), AT ??? Electronic Stylus Cleaner, on the far right side probably some gel stylus cleaner, Stylast, Thorens weight Type ???, spirit bubble level, IIRC far left some Discwasher product w/mirror - plus two clamps and a bottle I am not familiar with. In short, looks like your Carnegie One is going to be with you for quite a while - well done !


----------



## CrazyRay

Thanks analogsurviver.
  With the costs of cartridges these days you have to be anal.
   
   
*Here is the complete list:*
   
  Orsonic DS200G LP Disc Stabilizer

 J.A.Mitchell Clamp
  
 Goldman Reference Clamp

 Thorens Stabiliser

 Mana Acoustics spirit bubble

 Audio-technicia ATY-637 Electronic Stylus Cleaner

 Onzow Zero Dust

 LAST #4 Stylus Cleaner w/ Brush

 LAST #5 Stylast

 Discwasher Stylus mirror/brushDiscwasher record Cleaning Brush


----------



## Eee Pee

New Music Hall table from NY Audio Show.  Not too sure about that one.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   

   
   
  Harry of VPI holding the new 3D printed arm.
   
  "*[size=x-small]VPI[/size]*[size=x-small] had the world's first 3D printed tonearm with 9, 10.5 and 12 inches. Pricing is said to start at around $2500 on up."[/size]


----------



## Eee Pee

Heck, I forgot to post the better bit.
   
  "The development costs associated with the arm were extremely high, and it took the printer more than 30 hours to make a single unit, so don't expect to pick one of these up for under $3,000. The Classic Direct table/3D printed tonearm combination is going to cost $20,000 when it starts shipping in the next month or so, so the market is quite limited. The arm will be available for other tables this summer."
   
   

   
   
  http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/2013-New-York-Audio-Show-VPI-Industries-and-Joseph-Audio.shtml


----------



## Skylab

That Music Hall turntable is absolutely hideous. 

On the other hand, I want that VPI Classic Direct drive TT so bad I might sell my car.


----------



## Eee Pee

Sell the car!  Good idea as I was considering selling the wife and kids.
   
   
   
  Just kidding, I don't have a car.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Gotta be Harry's last statement, cause I gather he's handing over the company to his son.


----------



## MIKELAP

Bought this Thorens TD160 back in 1977 along with a Quad 405 amp and Quad 33 preamp


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> Thanks analogsurviver.
> With the costs of cartridges these days you have to be anal.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  CrazyRay, thank you for the entire list.
   
  Hell, if I was not clear enough:
   
  Madrigal Carnegie One ( that is how you know it, actually it is ANYTHING BUT - in name ) is/was one of the very best carts - EVER. Temperamental as hell, sample to sample there can be quite gross ( or grose ) difference, the best ones ( in single digit percentage of the whole lot ) were simply mesmerizing - the ones that were not so good were still outstanding.
   
  Absolute nigtmare to rebuild - and no, you do not want that composite cantilever replaced by anything if you want to preserve its unique sound. 
  The originally fitted Micro ??? stylus is perhaps the most cunning and practical solution found on any cartridge - it has a bit lower large scanning radius than either Van den Hul or other incarnations of Micro XYZ theme - meaning it can not threaten record demage/recutting , even if the azimuth is not perfectly adjusted. It will burn/grind in - and being a Micro, once it does, it will maintain that shape for something like 1000 hours prior sound degradation or threatening record demage.
   
  NLA and next to impossible fo retip to original spec - so please treat it real nice. Short of changing the arm, nothing you can do for prolonging its life that you are not doing already.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





skylab said:


> That Music Hall turntable is absolutely hideous.
> 
> On the other hand, I want that VPI Classic Direct drive TT so bad I might sell my car.


 
   
   
  Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Heck, I forgot to post the better bit.
> 
> "The development costs associated with the arm were extremely high, and it took the printer more than 30 hours to make a single unit, so don't expect to pick one of these up for under $3,000. The Classic Direct table/3D printed tonearm combination is going to cost $20,000 when it starts shipping in the next month or so, so the market is quite limited. The arm will be available for other tables this summer."
> 
> ...


 
  That is what I call a knife turntable : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLS3RGesIFQ


----------



## Eee Pee

Ha!  Classic!  
   
   
   
  Wait, no pun intended.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Ha!  Classic!
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, no pun intended.


 
  Exactly how I feel about this TT. Pricey in its fatherland, in Europe it will be pricier still. I "guess" I will have to take a pass ...


----------



## Destroysall

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> By "tape" you mean audio cassette tape ?


 

 Yes; audio cassette tape.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





destroysall said:


> Yes; audio cassette tape.


 
  You would be shocked to learn just how advanced TOTL casette software and hardware is/was.
  To be capable of seriously challenging reel to reel brethern, cassete had to go to the extreme lenghts and measures in - everything. If ANY R2R was even remotely as advanced than the last crop of cassette, we would have much better sound and sonically there would be next to no need for CD.
   
  Analog is unfortunately $$$ - current R2R tapes are roughly 1 $/EUR per minute and TOTL cassete of the past is today even more. Economically not viable for anything except for the master recordings.
   
  The unsung hero of the cassette world is Technics - its last machine was conceived in 1996 (!) and produced until 1999 IIRC, It is both laughable and it really hurts at the same time to see just to what lenghts did Technics go in this memorable swansong - service manual has some 60 pages - I guess they must have been losing money on this one compared to CD players "with nothing inside the box". To my knowledge, it was not available in the USA.
   
  Here the vid of its operation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAivu9UhT
  Please note the tape calibration - for best performance, that 20-30 second calibration is really helpful prior to any recording or playback - I found it to be necessary for EACH SIDE of the same casette!
   
  Here the vid of its smaller brother :http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=W_iORKv18XE&NR=1
   
  Here a very good review : http://www.tapeheads.net/showthread.php?t=8817
   
  Due to its amorphous heads, in the bass it will dwarf any other analog recorder, cassette or R2R,  save a handful of last Sony/Aiwa cassette decks that also feature this technology but are far rarer still.


----------



## MorbidToaster

My thoughts exactly on the MH TT.
   
  As for the new VPI...The price is a turn off for me, but I'm really interested in the arm.
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> That Music Hall turntable is absolutely hideous.
> 
> On the other hand, I want that VPI Classic Direct drive TT so bad I might sell my car.


----------



## Destroysall

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> You would be shocked to learn just how advanced TOTL casette software and hardware is/was.
> To be capable of seriously challenging reel to reel brethern, cassete had to go to the extreme lenghts and measures in - everything. If ANY R2R was even remotely as advanced than the last crop of cassette, we would have much better sound and sonically there would be next to no need for CD.
> 
> Analog is unfortunately $$$ - current R2R tapes are roughly 1 $/EUR per minute and TOTL cassete of the past is today even more. Economically not viable for anything except for the master recordings.
> ...


 

 Interesting.. Is it worth investing to?  I love me some pure analogue. Other than the Technics, what are some models out there worth looking at?


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





destroysall said:


> Interesting.. Is it worth investing to?  I love me some pure analogue. Other than the Technics, what are some models out there worth looking at?


 
  It depends what you will be using it for - besides real master recording ( Mic > Preamp > Cassette )
  only real use for pure analog would be live FM broadcasts - IF what is on air has not been through digital at some point, which is at this point in time highly unlikely.
   
  Look on ebay what prices are comanded for tapes - if that does not turn you off right away, you might search on tapeheads forum for "amorphous head decks". Top Aiwa is said to be superb - but by now it became rare and expen$$ive. As always, it boils down to what is available and the size of the piggybank.
   
  My Technics has seen very extensive modification ( it IS formidable in stock form ) and is being used with two Nakamichi High Com II noise reduction units ( again heavily modified ). Together, that really is "The Cassette Deck" - but such dedication is extreme and beyond the means of a "normal" audiophille.
   
  I am recording DSD these days - because it is the digital that most closely approaches analog. It uses hard disk drive as storage media - FAR less expensive than analog ( cassette or R2R ) tape.
   
  I have tried to answer best as I can - analog is nice, is real, but it is pricey at present and is unlikely to get any better regarding tape pricing.


----------



## analogsurviver

Without further derailing turntable pics, here a very nice, and above all, VERY Longhorn friendly clamp that got discovered by the usual "colateral demage" method while browsing ebay for some highly unrelated items. I have not seen one in real life or heard it, it is the absolute minimum (or close to that) as it gets, and unusually for a clamp/weight, allows visual acces to the record label by being made of transparent acryl over the record label. That should be relatively free from resonances compared to metal clamps.  It is also reasonably priced :
   http://www.ebay.de/itm/330851225677?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
  No affiliation with the seller / usual yada yada.


----------



## grokit

How about this baby...
   

   
  $175, no computer necessary


----------



## Redcarmoose

mikelap said:


> Bought this Thorens TD160 back in 1977 along with a Quad 405 amp and Quad 33 preamp



I had that exact table and arm package. Loved it!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





grokit said:


> How about this baby...
> 
> 
> 
> $175, no computer necessary


 
   
  Hmmmm....That represents the very thing you do not want together
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


 - CD drive affecting the analog and analog affecting the CD drive, both from mechanical/acoustical and electrical point of view. It wins on the price vs performance for sure - but if you are about to digitize your LP collection, do not expect stellar results with this unit. And - the Numark cart on this TT/CD is not what you would like to record a precious direct to disk record with - at least say $ 50-100 for a decent cart necessary.
   
  We have a saying : How much money, that much music. Cruely true applicable to all things audio.


----------



## CrazyRay

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> CrazyRay, thank you for the entire list.
> 
> Hell, if I was not clear enough:
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thank's for the information analogsurviver.

 I knew that the Madrigal Carnegie One cartridge was nice, but I didn't know that it was revered that much!

 The sound from my Carnegie One is just amazing.

 When I visit local stereo stores, I am always amazed that their LP systems sound horrible.

 I usually attribute the bad sound to their speaker choice but now I'm thinking that it's most likely the turntable/cartridge setup.

 Plus, some of these places _*really need to clean their records!*_
   
  I guess they are mostly concerned about digital and put vinyl on the back burner?

 If something should happen to my Carnegie One what would be comparable that is still in production that will work well with the SME 309 arm?

 I was thinking maybe a Koetsu (Rosewood, Black Goldline or Urushi Black)?
   
  Thanks again for the great information.


----------



## MIKELAP

About Turntables this  reminds of a story. When my son was a teenager about 15 years ago i was showing him my turntable and records and to my great surprise not to say asthonishment he ask me how does this thing work he did not know what to do to play a record i was floored then i got old!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> Thank's for the information analogsurviver.
> 
> I knew that the Madrigal Carnegie One cartridge was nice, but I didn't know that it was revered that much!
> 
> ...


 
  Koetsu is an entirely different animal - in fact, Carnegie One was response from Ernst Benz to a demand from one of the Greek Audiophiles who wanted a cartridge that would obliterate Koetsus ! Too long a story, too technical to go in all the details.
   
  Koetsu is a fine, very fine cart - but it is $$$ to retip to original spec, as it has a very unique method of mounting the stylus to the cantilever which results in perfect alignment of the diamond. It is Romantic compared to lean & mean Carnegie One  -  regardless of the model. There is no shortage of various Koetsu model reviews online - but if it is speed and immediacy of C 1 you are after, no Koetsu will deliver that. No current cart I am familiar with is a sonic equivalent of C 1. One I have read about but not heard has a chance of improving upon : http://dagogo.com/haniwa-audio-hctr01-cartridge-and-heqa01-phono-equalizer-review How it fits one's budget is another matter ...
   
  For a dealer, analog is PITA compared to digital - the mere fact that  some better dealers are still supporting analog, even if it is not to your standard, must be regarded as positive. It is hard to keep records clean under dealer conditions and keeping $ in a RCM for "an odd analog customer or two " is usually not cost effective. Hope vinyl will continue to grow in quantity to change that for the better.


----------



## CrazyRay

Thanks again for all of the great information analogsurviver!

 You rock!!

 I have been trying to use my Empire 698 with Shure V15 Type IV a little more to give the Carnegie One a little rest.

 It's just not the same (still very musical and enjoyable) but not like you say (lean & mean) as the Carnegie One.

 I been searching eBay for another Carnegie One as a backup but that is turning up futile.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> Thanks again for all of the great information analogsurviver!
> 
> You rock!!
> 
> ...


 
  Yup, C1s do not grow on trees - never did, even less so at present day. Perfectly know how it is Shure V 15 IV vs C1 ...Shoot me a PM and maybe I can help you looking at places that might still have something available.
   
  BTW - do you NEED this _resonator_ ( in the form of fingerlift ) on 309 ? If you cue with the lift only and never or extremely rarely use fingerlift, this thing is throwing say 10 % of the treble away . Particularly resolution will suffer with a(n) (unnecessary)  fingerlift. That is why better arms offer fingerlift that is removable/optional.


----------



## CrazyRay

Hi analogsurviver, yes, I do use the finger lift.

 The cartridge was set up by the dealer at my house many years ago so I really don't want to mess around with it.

 You know, "if it's not broke…"

 I'm happy with the sound, if I knew a little about cartridge setup (which I don't) I might be tempted to take it off.
   
  As of now, I will just leave it alone.

 I'll send you PM.

 Thanks again,
 Ray


----------



## CrazyRay

Quote: 





destroysall said:


> Yes; audio cassette tape.


 
   
  Hi Destroysall, if you wanted to get into tape just for fun and were willing to look into pre-recorded music like Blues or Jazz.

 You could buy an inexpensive Nakamichi, Pioneer, Teac, Denon, Tascam, Yamaha ($200 - $400 — maybe less) on eBay and have some fun.

 Jazz Record Mart in Chicago sells 100's of pre-recorded Blues/Jazz music that sound really good (around $1 to $3), and you can order them online!

 You will be surprised just how good tape can sound.
  
http://jazzmart.com
   
http://jazzmart.com/product/cassettes.htm
   
  There is a Nakamichi BX-300 on eBay right now for $499.00, it is a wonderful deck.

 That's just one example.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> Hi analogsurviver, yes, I do use the finger lift.
> 
> The cartridge was set up by the dealer at my house many years ago so I really don't want to mess around with it.
> 
> ...


 
  Well, 90 % of "oopses" occur during setup - then better leave it alone. Carnegie One is not something you want to learn on about setup.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> Hi Destroysall, if you wanted to get into tape just for fun and were willing to look into pre-recorded music like Blues or Jazz.
> 
> You could buy an inexpensive Nakamichi, Pioneer, Teac, Denon, Tascam, Yamaha ($200 - $400 — maybe less) on eBay and have some fun.
> 
> ...


 
  That prerecorded thing was sweet ! Here prerecorded casettes were phased out some 5 years ago 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



.
   
  I am NOT so sure regarding prerecorded tapes on Nakamichi decks - a friend, who is in love with Naka, says it is only 600 that is "compatible" in both directions , meaning tapes recorded on non Naka decks sound good on 600 and tapes recorded on 600 sound good on other decks. He went with the Technics RS AZ 7 in the end. 
   
  In any case - cassette can really sound surprisingly good.


----------



## analogsurviver

Found something nice - an interview with Albert Lukaschek, #1 of Benz Micro Switzerland.  Although a bit dated ( and will prove to be an exercise for your translating skills/patience with gibberish translations ), there are a few interesting pics.http://www.avmagazine.com/05/Micro_2.html


----------



## CrazyRay

Thanks analogsurviver.
I was re-reading you replys, and want to say again how much your knowledge has enlightened me.
I wish more people on this forum were like you.
You are definitely an asset to head-fi.
Thanks,
Ray


----------



## s4s4s4

I just don't get this pre-recorded cassette thing, they sound god awful. Don't get me wrong to each their own, and I too love analog, have had countless tables and set-up thousands over the years, owned high end Nak's, but pre-recorded tapes, yikes....


----------



## penmarker

Quote: 





grokit said:


> How about this baby...
> 
> 
> 
> $175, no computer necessary


 
  Hey grokit.
   
  I wouldn't consider buying, or suggesting this to anyone at all. The vibration from the CD motor will travel into the platter and affect the sound. You can try putting your ear on any CDP high end or low end alike and you can feel/hear the rumble. Even when walking affects the playback of turntables on an isolated rack platform, you wouldn't want to mount a CD drive in the plastic housing.
  Though maybe you have kids running around and you want them to have fun, this could be it. Like Easy Bake ovens.


----------



## s4s4s4

Quote: 





s4s4s4 said:


> I just don't get this pre-recorded cassette thing, they sound god awful. Don't get me wrong to each their own, and I too love analog, have had countless tables and set-up thousands over the years, owned high end Nak's, but pre-recorded tapes, yikes....


 
   
  sorry for getting off topic here are some pics


----------



## s4s4s4

sold this one...


----------



## MorbidToaster

It was a joke.
   
  Quote: 





penmarker said:


> Hey grokit.
> 
> I wouldn't consider buying, or suggesting this to anyone at all. The vibration from the CD motor will travel into the platter and affect the sound. You can try putting your ear on any CDP high end or low end alike and you can feel/hear the rumble. Even when walking affects the playback of turntables on an isolated rack platform, you wouldn't want to mount a CD drive in the plastic housing.
> Though maybe you have kids running around and you want them to have fun, this could be it. Like Easy Bake ovens.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> It was a joke.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 

 Yes hence the winky face jeez... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  But in my defense, it was number one:
  http://vinyl-converter-turntable-review.toptenreviews.com/
   


Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!



That was a joke too penmarker!


----------



## s4s4s4




----------



## MohawkUS

And notice my pre-recorded cassette collection under the Dual.  You'd be surprised how good some of them sound. They aren't clearer than a good record or CD(though they come within an inch of CD) but tape has it's own character. It's addictive. Don't feel that you need to buy a TOTL deck to get into the hobby either. I'm using a fully restored Tandberg TCD-300 that I got off ebay for $20 and it's closer to my TOTL DAC than I'd ever admit, beats vinyl on some counts(note that I'm also using a $20 cartridge. ) With a good Type II or IV tape and a good deck I'd be surprised if you weren't in the same league as high-res dig. You also have the benifit of buying whole albums at $5 a peice, and depending on your musical tastes you can still get your favorite music on tape. 99% of my tapes(got about 50 of them) are of music released in the past 10 years. I generally end up importing my tapes from Poland, Ukraine, or France through discogs.

Tandy n' STAX:


----------



## grokit

Very distinctive!
   
  Quote: 





s4s4s4 said:


>


----------



## penmarker

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Yes hence the winky face jeez...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Haha... Oh man, sorry guys. I gotta admit I'm a little... s  l  o  w  ..


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





s4s4s4 said:


> I just don't get this pre-recorded cassette thing, they sound god awful. Don't get me wrong to each their own, and I too love analog, have had countless tables and set-up thousands over the years, owned high end Nak's, but pre-recorded tapes, yikes....


 
  Well, this post goes to confirm Naks are not the best thing to use for playing prerecorded tapes. They are best for recording and playing done on them to a tape they were aligned for - outside that, they can be very iffy. It is actually the nature of analog tape recording, everybody tried to squeeze that last bit of performance using just slightly different biasing etc - making compatibility with other decks often an issue as a result. Back in the days, cassette deck reviews of the better reviewers/magazines did point this out - but did not bang the big bell about it if you catch my drift.
   
  Truly dedicated cassette users with Naks as their primary deck often ended up adding something/anything that offers good playback of prerecorded tapes. If one can still find prerecorded tapes of the music of interest, it is a low cost option for getting great music. But getting info which decks are suitable for this purpose, let alone procuring those decks in useable condition these days, is another matter. I was extremely late to the cassette party,
  my first serious deck in about 2003 - so my knowledge on this is very limited.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





s4s4s4 said:


> sorry for getting off topic here are some pics


 
  I am curious how does the Brinkmann Bardo combo sound - should be great, but I never had a chance to hear it. 
   
  Nice looking plinth for the TD124 - a little description might not hurt.
   
  I have to cry *FAUL!* for removing Peripheral Wave Trap from this Oracle - it was the single best feature of this deck, no idea why they dropped it on the later incarnations. I would appreciate any comments, both pro and contra, regarding this.


----------



## analogsurviver

Here something for an adventurer soul who would put his/hers money where his/hers mouth is in proving audiophilles are not necesarily always the ones with XY.000 $ systems and only a few records besides Dire Straits Brothers in Arms and Pink Floyd DSOTM.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/SEALED-Lot-12-Albums-13-LPs-Tchaikovsky-Beethoven-Bartok-RCA-Sefel-Erato-MINT-/221143013805?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item337d2699ad
  It is a strange mix, some quite less known/played composers - I would have been tempted by this if I was from the USA ( FREE shipping ! ) - I am always prone to " Broadening The Horizons". Not quite making the Cubism requirement in full, but 13 LPs is a bit hard to turn into a horse shoe shape.
   
  The seller has a GREAT selection of mostly classical music - particularly worth mentioning Melodiya ( USSR ) and ETERNA ( GDR ) labels. Some ETERNAs are uber audiophile level. 
   
  And original 1978 Patty Smith album Easter is available too ! Some of the most honest music ever recorded - my late grandma, who did not like any loud music, rock included, came into my room while Easter was playing, commenting how good she liked the guitar playing...


----------



## s4s4s4

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> I am curious how does the Brinkmann Bardo combo sound - should be great, but I never had a chance to hear it.
> 
> Nice looking plinth for the TD124 - a little description might not hurt.
> 
> I have to cry *FAUL!* for removing Peripheral Wave Trap from this Oracle - it was the single best feature of this deck, no idea why they dropped it on the later incarnations. I would appreciate any comments, both pro and contra, regarding this.


 
  The best way to describe the Bardo is like it's the best of both worlds. Beautiful analog (my old LP12 SE) combined with digital done right (Bryston BDP/BDA combo) I am neither a digital or analog fan, just like music to sound like music.
   
  The TD124 was not working well when I got it, rebuilt the motor, bought a few pieces for it to get it running again. Got the arm board and birch plinth from a well know TD124 tuner in the states, can't remember his name now. It's hooked up to the MM input built inside my BP26. the original TD124 can't be used with an MC cartridge, as the plater is magnetic. Chuckle when I see pics of TD124's without the mk2 platter used with MC's.
   
  I have the TD124 cause it sounds pretty good and looks cool. I call it my drunk table.
   
  The oracle was dead when I got it, rebuilt that too and recently sold it, no room for it. Guess I took the pic before re-installing the ring that's all. What it is missing is the proper groove isolator mat though.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





s4s4s4 said:


> The best way to describe the Bardo is like it's the best of both worlds. Beautiful analog (my old LP12 SE) combined with digital done right (Bryston BDP/BDA combo) I am neither a digital or analog fan, just like music to sound like music.
> 
> The TD124 was not working well when I got it, rebuilt the motor, bought a few pieces for it to get it running again. Got the arm board and birch plinth from a well know TD124 tuner in the states, can't remember his name now. It's hooked up to the MM input built inside my BP26. the original TD124 can't be used with an MC cartridge, as the plater is magnetic. Chuckle when I see pics of TD124's without the mk2 platter used with MC's.
> 
> ...


 
  Thank you s4s4s4 for the answer.
   
  Your description of the Bardo makes sense to me. I have stated in my posts before that reproduction, once perfected enough, should be indistingushable regardless if it is analog or digital. Hope to live to the day this actually happens.
   
Guess some people like tracking MCs at couple hundred grams ?
   
I guess that on now your ex-oracle motor was behaving like crazy. A friend is experiencing similar fate, what did it take to get yours going again ?


----------



## analogsurviver

II was searching the net far and wide, in order to get some meaningful Scanning Electron Microscope ( SEM in further text ) pictures of the record groove(s), record cleaning, styli etc. It is actually perverse how little is available, despite cartridge manufacturers offering designs in high(ish) four and even 5 figures price bracket.
   
  Zero...zero...etc,etc - until I stumbled upon the work of Mr. Lou Dorren http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Dorren , who is the original inventor of CD-4 Quadrophonic record. First I found this 5 year long going thread http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?9035-Lou-Dorren-A-new-CD-4-Demodulator!!! Now - given that Mr. Lou Dorren invented CD-4 in 1969 and lately there were no posts of his, I only hope it is due to his being busy and not due to some health reasons - during these 5 years, he lost two of his good friends that were involved in this project. I think at least a silent prayer for his well being is in order, despite the fact no one on this thread(s) has expressly mentioned being CD-4 user - we would have been far worse off without his contribution to the analog vinyl cause. CD-4 may have been commercial flop, but it contributed to betterment of vinyl recording and playback more than anything after the invention of the gramophone itself.
   
  Here the link to the Lou Dorren's new CD-4 Demodulator ( which doubles as a very high quality phono stage as well ) - but main meat here are the pics of the groove(s) of the incoparably more demanding CD-4 records - and ways how to make it work by proper cleaning. 
http://www.johana.com/~johana/dorren/cd-4paper4.pdf
  You can skip the demodulator part and go straight to the pictures/cleaning part. Somewhere in the loooong thread above, Lou Dorren was offering his QSI record cleaning kit - intersting is the fact any alcohol is avoided as a pleague! And, after seeing how delicate CD-4 grooves are compared to the normal stereo, you can bet that that his cleaning method must be doing really good job. All users reported positive results.
   
  No current info beyond last posts in the thread, so let's pray everything will turn out right.


----------



## analogsurviver

Optical microscope - surprisingly good : http://micrographia.com/projec/projapps/viny/viny0000.htm
   
  Stylus wear: http://micrographia.com/projec/projapps/viny/viny0300.htm
   
  Scanning Electron Microscope : http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=vinyl&m=1021958


----------



## grokit

Interesting stuff there re how different types of phono needles wear, and how they interact with the surface of the records. Thanks for posting it.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Here something for an adventurer soul who would put his/hers money where his/hers mouth is in proving audiophilles are not necesarily always the ones with XY.000 $ systems and only a few records besides Dire Straits Brothers in Arms and Pink Floyd DSOTM.
> http://www.ebay.de/itm/SEALED-Lot-12-Albums-13-LPs-Tchaikovsky-Beethoven-Bartok-RCA-Sefel-Erato-MINT-/221143013805?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item337d2699ad
> It is a strange mix, some quite less known/played composers - I would have been tempted by this if I was from the USA ( FREE shipping ! ) - I am always prone to " Broadening The Horizons". Not quite making the Cubism requirement in full, but 13 LPs is a bit hard to turn into a horse shoe shape.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks for the link, just pulled the trigger 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Going to do a local pickup since the seller is only an hour away


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Thanks for the link, just pulled the trigger
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Oh, local boys
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


 ... - glad that one of "us" got it !
   
  I have Arpad Joo  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arpad_Jo%C3%B3  Bartok LP http://www.discogs.com/B%C3%A9la-Bart%C3%B3k-Budapest-Philharmonic-Orchestra-The-%C3%81rp%C3%A1d-Jo%C3%B3-The-Miraculous-Mandarin-Concert-Suite/release/2906135 ; digital Soundstream recording, sound much resembling Telarc, great version of the music. Requires good tracking, bass is quite demanding in this series. Not much I can say regarding SQ of others ( Erato from France is on average very good, some are absolute creme de la creme ) - but there are some really fine musicians on those LPs. I would appreciate some comment after you got them - especially the Alan Hovhaness disc.
   
  Throw an eye what else from the same seller might be of interest to you - this lot was certainly best bang for the buck, but perhaps you can haggle the price of others a bit as well. ETERNA from East Germany produced many gems, spawning re-releases by Analogue Audio Association  http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogue_Audio_Association that regularly sold out in record time. These , of course originally analog,  ETERNA recordings were so good that even CDs ( VERY well done transfers to digital ) on Corona Classics Collection BUDGET label will regularly drop jaws: here a link with some MP3 samples: http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=767258
   
  You do not want to know what prices best original ETERNA mint LPs fetch ...


----------



## s4s4s4

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Thank you s4s4s4 for the answer.
> 
> Your description of the Bardo makes sense to me. I have stated in my posts before that reproduction, once perfected enough, should be indistingushable regardless if it is analog or digital. Hope to live to the day this actually happens.
> 
> ...


 
  LOL about the hundred grams, but yes crazy, often using $1000 cartridges that now sound worse than $50 ones.
   
  I did take the motor apart, clean and lube. The biggest problem was the bearing, very tight making it look initially that there was a motor problem. that was something I was not able to fix, Jacques at Oracle rebuilt that for me.


----------



## RamblinE

I picked up a weird little table on a hunch and some good words from the Steve Hoffman forums. A Denon DP7F direct-drive. I could tell from the photo in the for-sale post it had an Ortofon on the end of the arm, I just couldn't tell which. It's the OMP10  This weird Denon does a few things better then my Gemini. It tracks better, especially on warped records. It's motor is quieter. Seeing as the Gemini is Chinese with seemingly little thought put into it's design I don't see how it's arm could be any better than the little low-mass straight T4P arm on this thing. While this thing looks cheap and is a full-auto it works and doesn't even sound half bad. I think I'll hang on to it until I can afford to pick up a new/used Pro-Ject sometime between my birthday and Christmas


----------



## s4s4s4




----------



## palmfish

My main table in the 80's was a DP-11F with Dynavector DV-10X3. It was a nice entry level table in its day.


----------



## s4s4s4

Not too much work to transform this table into something that actually sounds pretty good.


----------



## penmarker

Man you guys have so much fun playing your LPs and leaving your TT with their cover off. Mine is so dusty even after a week and had to keep the cover on at all times. It makes the TT look like a huge chunk of useless box instead of a pretty TT.


----------



## MorbidToaster

A lot of 'hi-fi' tables don't have dust covers. You have to pay upwards for $200 for one a lot of the time.
   
  Mine came with a nifty Cardboard cover. 
   
  Quote: 





penmarker said:


> Man you guys have so much fun playing your LPs and leaving your TT with their cover off. Mine is so dusty even after a week and had to keep the cover on at all times. It makes the TT look like a huge chunk of useless box instead of a pretty TT.


----------



## MohawkUS

penmarker said:


> Man you guys have so much fun playing your LPs and leaving your TT with their cover off. Mine is so dusty even after a week and had to keep the cover on at all times. It makes the TT look like a huge chunk of useless box instead of a pretty TT.




Simple, you hide the cover when you're ready to take pictures.  Seriously though, I guess some people just don't have a dust problem. I'm unfortunately not in that situation. I've had friends tell me that I should dust off my stuff with 'a years worth of dust on it' when I had only a few days earlier.

Generally though the dust cover is said to add resonance to the table so higher end tables either have fully removable covers or none at all.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I unscrewed my dust covers on older tables (keeping all the parts of course) and made them fully removeable as well. Just in case.
   
  Quote: 





mohawkus said:


> Simple, you hide the cover when you're ready to take pictures.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## penmarker

Yeah the cover tend to be microphonic because it is not as rigid as the rest of the TT. However, I've yet to detect any difference with the cover on, off, opened, or closed. I think my setup isn't really high end and that revealing.
   
  Also I got this nasty booming bass in a certain frequency. I think it's because of standing waves. I'm using my bookshelves as computer speakers so they become nearfields.
   
   


Spoiler: Click%20to%20open.



 

   
  There's the turntable with the cover on in the left corner of the picture.


  If you listen to Adele's Skyfall, at the 1:00 minute mark there will be a bass line, and my speakers reproduced them in a very echoing and boomy manner (I don't know the term to explain it).
   
  Do I need to invest in bass traps or acoustic panels or whatever? I've tried different placements but no dice. Some improvements but nothing massive. But I do notice it subsides a little when I lower my head to woofer level. I've since fashioned myself a stand with styrofoam layers wrapped in paper.
  It's not much, but it's mine.
   
  So how can I rectify this? Please advise.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





penmarker said:


> Yeah the cover tend to be microphonic because it is not as rigid as the rest of the TT. However, I've yet to detect any difference with the cover on, off, opened, or closed. I think my setup isn't really high end and that revealing.
> 
> Also I got this nasty booming bass in a certain frequency. I think it's because of standing waves. I'm using my bookshelves as computer speakers so they become nearfields.
> 
> ...


 
  Well, let's put it that way - why on earth you think great TTs come with great isolation support(s) ?
  Why they use no microphone   dustcover, at least while playing a record ? I know you are on the toughest of budgets - but you can read just what better/best tables use to combat these issues. Some are relatively easy to DIY or at least approch good original solutions.
   
  It is precisely in these areas modern TT, even most basic one, will usually outperform quite higher up on the food chain vintage model. They had 30 or so years to learn on the mistakes of their predecessors.
   
  The most basic test - put the stylus in the run out groove on a stationary record and listen. First with cans - if tapping on the whatever your TT sits on is audible, that is wrong. If it sounds like a sinking ship, with metallic clanging noises or springs releasing etc - it is horrible. Repeat tapping on plinth of the TT, than its dustcover microphone - by now you should have an idea what is the largest culprit. Now you can repeat the experiment with loudspeakers - but advance the volume to the listening level slowly, only after establishing the whole setup does not start howling through structure or airborne feedback.
   
  And if you after this test think your TT is the greatest piece of junk - think again: how many TTs are out there you can bang on them, even flick the on record rim with a fingernail while the stylus is in the groove and volume is at listening level - and there is STILL no excessive protest from the cans/speakers? VERY few - and they will invariably be the best sounding ones - you can bet, lots of good thinking and engineering went into making these TTs as quiet as possible, since low rumble is only the beggining of a quiet turntable, but by no means its end. 
   
  @ everybody: if you think that your TT "can not possibly be affected by such" - think again. And make the test. There are quite high priced models out there that are very poor regarding this and there is the ultimate expression of clever cost effective thinking in that Kickstarter TT - and everything in between. I am certainly not saying Kickstarter TT can have better isolation than say a ten times pricier unit - I would only like you to pay attention to this and you will be able to decide better when purchasing a table or taking measures to improve sound from the equipment you have. The objecive is to find something with good sound at an acceptable price - what is the first and the second, only you can decide.


----------



## penmarker

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Well, let's put it that way - why on earth you think great TTs come with great isolation support(s) ?
> Why they use no microphone   dustcover, at least while playing a record ? I know you are on the toughest of budgets - but you can read just what better/best tables use to combat these issues. Some are relatively easy to DIY or at least approch good original solutions.
> **snip**


 
  I'm well aware of the tapping sounds getting transferred into the stylus, but I'm quite surprised at how little it travels up when I tap on the table or sides of the table.
   
  It may not look like much, but the rack/shelf the TT is resting on is actually quite sturdy though made of MDF chipboard. The tabletop wood piece was taken from another desk that was taken apart, and that thing's pretty darn heavy and thick. I'm so glad I live in a concrete building, some people complained they can't even walk a lot around their TT because their wood floorboards are picking up their footsteps! Also the TT's feet has built in springs to absorb vibrations.
  Yes the cover shouldn't even be called microphonic anymore, it should be called a microphone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 tapping on them sounds like small firecrackers going off in your cabinets. I want to try screaming at the stylus and hear whether it can detect my vocal vibrations. However, I really have to be honest that I cannot discern any difference between cover on and off.


----------



## ProcessJunkie

Sorry for thr crappy cellphone pics, but i had to show this to you guys.



   

   

   

   

   

   


 After some weeks of research, i decided to pull the trigger on the RP1. Later i'll take some pictures with my camera. I'm so excited right now.


----------



## RamblinE

Quote: 





processjunkie said:


> Sorry for thr crappy cellphone pics, but i had to show this to you guys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Why's your copy of Alligator yellow? :c 
   
  Let us know how you like it! I'd love an RP1 but the Pro-Ject's under cut Rega's pricing by a bit.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I personally prefer Rega. Pro-Ject has had some noise issue with their lower end tables.
   
  They're basically the same thing though, honestly.
   
  Quote: 





rambline said:


> Why's your copy of Alligator yellow? :c
> 
> Let us know how you like it! I'd love an RP1 but the Pro-Ject's under cut Rega's pricing by a bit.


----------



## dscythe

Quote: 





processjunkie said:


> Sorry for thr crappy cellphone pics, but i had to show this to you guys.
> 
> After some weeks of research, i decided to pull the trigger on the RP1. Later i'll take some pictures with my camera. I'm so excited right now.


 
  That thing is gorgeous! I've been wanting an rp1 for quite some time as an upgrade to my old technics table


----------



## ProcessJunkie

RamblinE, Beggars Banquet reissued all of The National albums on colored vinyl on 2011. I got Boxer (yellow) and The Virginia EP (yellow with black splatter). Here's the link for the discogs: http://www.discogs.com/National-Alligator/release/3120472 I'm still feeling RP1, but it's definetely clearer than my old technics, more detail, i can feel the instruments, and there's less surface noise. In a couple of days ill be able to say how it really feel. Later the pictures!


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





rambline said:


> Why's your copy of Alligator yellow? :c
> 
> Let us know how you like it! I'd love an RP1 but the Pro-Ject's under cut Rega's pricing by a bit.


 
  I just picked p an RP1 for my Dad. It blew away the entry Pro-Ject and Music Hall tables. It's a fine TT, comparable to my older P2.
  The new bakelite platter is very trick! It is also super easy to set-up if you stick with their recommended cartridges.


----------



## tribestros

Table is an older Kenwood with an Audio Technica 8008 cart. Great sound.


----------



## ProcessJunkie

And that is an awesome copy of Siamese Dream right there. Jealous here.


----------



## tribestros

Quote: 





processjunkie said:


> And that is an awesome copy of Siamese Dream right there. Jealous here.


 
   
  Why thank you! I got it four years ago or so at a record store. Need to clean it up, just ordered a brush, lots of background noise, though. I have all their vinyls now, the only one missing was MCIS, but I bought the reissue. Made my wallet quite light, though. LOL.
   
  Can't you still buy the original pressing of it?


----------



## MorbidToaster

You can, but the recent reissues aren't bad. Hunting down originals of 90s vinyl can get pretty rough...and you roll the dice on stuff that was really low volume like that.
   
  Quote: 





tribestros said:


> Why thank you! I got it four years ago or so at a record store. Need to clean it up, just ordered a brush, lots of background noise, though. I have all their vinyls now, the only one missing was MCIS, but I bought the reissue. Made my wallet quite light, though. LOL.
> 
> Can't you still buy the original pressing of it?


----------



## tribestros

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> You can, but the recent reissues aren't bad. Hunting down originals of 90s vinyl can get pretty rough...and you roll the dice on stuff that was really low volume like that.


 
   
  Well, the reissue of MCIS is complete trash. Wasted money on it. But yeah, you're probably right. It actually sounds really good, the mids on that album come through with plenty of ferocity.


----------



## MorbidToaster

MCIS is a very unfortunate screw up, but the rest are good.
   
  90s vinyl is just one of those things that you better hope it gets reissued or you're in for a gigantic hole in your wallet.
   
  I'm super excited for the Blind Melon reissue coming out for RSD tomorrow. Never thought I'd own a copy.
   
  Quote: 





tribestros said:


> Well, the reissue of MCIS is complete trash. Wasted money on it. But yeah, you're probably right. It actually sounds really good, the mids on that album come through with plenty of ferocity.


----------



## ProcessJunkie

I own the Siamese Dream reissue, and they did a really good job at the remaster, at least for my non-trained ears. I plan on getting all the reissues, since the original pressings are impossible to find where i live. I saw one Mellon Collie that was going for almost $700.

 Didn't knew about the Blind Melon reissue, i totally need to get this!


----------



## Eee Pee

Having both a reissued Siamese Dream and an original, I prefer the original as I find it a bit more raw and in your face and blood pumping. They cleaned up all the low end grungey distortion stuff and in doing so it seems to have lost some of that drive. I noticed it instantly. 

I also have an original Blind Melon and I'm VERY happy to hear it's being reissued. The original was pressed at Masterdisk. BM is a top five band for me.


----------



## MorbidToaster

eee pee said:


> Having both a reissued Siamese Dream and an original, I prefer the original as I find it a bit more raw and in your face and blood pumping. They cleaned up all the low end grungey distortion stuff and in doing so it seems to have lost some of that drive. I noticed it instantly.
> 
> I also have an original Blind Melon and I'm VERY happy to hear it's being reissued. The original was pressed at Masterdisk. BM is a top five band for me.




The new reissue is also coming ith the Sipping Time EP.


----------



## Eee Pee

I saw that.  And I see a Mad Season reissue!  I just got their CD/DVD reiusse today and couldn't be happier to see it come out on vinyl to match my originals of them, too.
   
  So, I called a local record shop.  They're gonna open two hours early, but people still line up two hours before that!  At 7 am!  And he only got three copies of Blind Melon!  Crap!  And it's an RSD exclusive, so I only get this one chance.  The Mad Season isn't an exclusive, so at least I got that going for me.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Ours is 10am and I'll be there at 8:30. They say that'll be enough time, and they are a fairly large store, so I don't see 3 copies of anything happening.
   
  I will be upset if I don't get what I want though.
   
  Quote: 





eee pee said:


> I saw that.  And I see a Mad Season reissue!  I just got their CD/DVD reiusse today and couldn't be happier to see it come out on vinyl to match my originals of them, too.
> 
> So, I called a local record shop.  They're gonna open two hours early, but people still line up two hours before that!  At 7 am!  And he only got three copies of Blind Melon!  Crap!  And it's an RSD exclusive, so I only get this one chance.  The Mad Season isn't an exclusive, so at least I got that going for me.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Speaking of Record Store Day I just tried to run down to my local store to check it out, and ask them what they had in stock for tomorrow, but they closed early due to the fact they are opening early(9am) tomorrow. Ill be lining up around 730-745. Though they did just post a list of all releases they have on their facebook which is super awesome. They have everything i want
   

 All That Remains - The Fall of Ideals
 Between the Buried and Me - Parallax 1&2
 Between the Buried and Me - The Anatomy Of
 Dio/Killswitch Engage - Holy Diver
 Lamb of God - New American Gospel
 Linkin Park - Hybrid Theory
 White Stripes - Elephant
   
  They didnt get the Katatonia 7" for Buildings in though :/


----------



## MorbidToaster

Don't think we're getting the Lamb of God release. Pissed. You should get me one. 
   
  Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> Speaking of Record Store Day I just tried to run down to my local store to check it out, and ask them what they had in stock for tomorrow, but they closed early due to the fact they are opening early(9am) tomorrow. Ill be lining up around 730-745. Though they did just post a list of all releases they have on their facebook which is super awesome. They have everything i want
> 
> 
> All That Remains - The Fall of Ideals
> ...


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Don't think we're getting the Lamb of God release. Pissed. You should get me one.


 

 Ill see what i can do for you. Ive been the first in line both the last two years, so i assume that trend will continue. Though they may only let me take one  Or may only have one even


----------



## MorbidToaster

Our place is limiting numbers, but go all sob story for me. 
   
  For that matter...if anyone is at Coachella...How about you pick me up one of those Puscifer V is for Vagina reissues.
   
  Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> Ill see what i can do for you. Ive been the first in line both the last two years, so i assume that trend will continue. Though they may only let me take one  Or may only have one even


----------



## RamblinE

Has anybody here tried the Pro-Ject Essential? I don't think I'm that sensitive to wow and flutter as I've only ever heard it on Crosley but I'm looking at the specs for the Essential and 0.25% seems awfully high....


----------



## s4s4s4

It's pretty bad, spend $100-200 more it will be worth it.


----------



## Eee Pee

This is cool!  Bob's Devices step up transformer made for VPI arms and eliminate a set of RCA cables.


----------



## s4s4s4

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> This is cool!  Bob's Devices step up transformer made for VPI arms and eliminate a set of RCA cables.


 
       Clever


----------



## SoupRKnowva

eee pee said:


> This is cool!  Bob's Devices step up transformer made for VPI arms and eliminate a set of RCA cables.




I've been eyeballing one of those since I bought the aries...though I don't really understand why it costs 500 more than his regular SUT with those transformers in it....


----------



## ProcessJunkie

I'm going record shopping tomorrow, but we don't got any Record Store day esclusive here in Brazil, we don't even have a RSD for that matter. Guess i'll be add the Blind Melon reissue to my "want but will never have" list on Discogs.


----------



## Eee Pee

souprknowva said:


> I don't really understand why it costs 500 more than his regular SUT with those transformers in it....


 
   
  Harry and Bob consultation fee, spread out over the few dozen they'll sell.
   
   



processjunkie said:


> my "want but will never have" list on Discogs.


 
   
  Hah!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





s4s4s4 said:


> Clever


 
  Clever indeed. Having next to zero ( and probably well shielded ) wiring from the arm to SUT goes a long way towards better S/N, particularly regarding hum. It is much negated by the VPI's "flying braided output cable" approach of getting arm wiring from the arm tube to the outer world - susceptibility to hum induced there is cartridge impedance dependant, so with low impedance MC should not be too much of a problem.


----------



## analogsurviver

@everybody : Have a sucessful Record Day Store hunt
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



 and may your standing in line pay off 



!


----------



## calipilot227

If anyone's in the San Jose area, I'll be working at Rasputin tomorrow for Record Store Day


----------



## ffivaz

Thorens TD 320 (mk0), 30 years old by next year ! Cartridge is a Denon DL-110 !


----------



## Eee Pee

My waking up early to stand in line did not pay off.  Limited supply of Blind Melon and people waiting in line since 1 am beat me.
   
  BUMMER!


----------



## MorbidToaster

Hoping I don't have the same luck as yourself. My place is big so I'm hoping has enough copies. The line started at 6:30pm last night though.
   
  Quote: 





eee pee said:


> My waking up early to stand in line did not pay off.  Limited supply of Blind Melon and people waiting in line since 1 am beat me.
> 
> BUMMER!


----------



## Eee Pee

OH YEAH!!!!!!!
   

   
  Persistance and driving all over town and talking to people paid off!


----------



## MorbidToaster

My store only got 6 ******* copies of that LP. They're up on eBay now for $80.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> My store only got 6 ******* copies of that LP. They're up on eBay now for $80.


 

 did you not get a copy?


----------



## MorbidToaster

Didn't even see one.
   
  Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> did you not get a copy?


----------



## penmarker

Sorry I'm not really versed with your music preferences.

 Who are the Blind Melon again?


----------



## MorbidToaster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qVPNONdF58
   
  Quote: 





penmarker said:


> Sorry I'm not really versed with your music preferences.
> 
> Who are the Blind Melon again?


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





renno61 said:


> Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I had a CJ55 for many years. Great Table. It finally died (Motor went out) and I got rid of it. I had many happy years of vinyl bliss with it and the Dynavector 10X2....


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> I had a CJ55 for many years. Great Table. It finally died (Motor went out) and I got rid of it. I had many happy years of vinyl bliss with it and the Dynavector 10X2....


 
  Oh NOOOO 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


- getting rid of that thing was not a clever thing to do !  I guess a replacement motor, a synchronous unit with the same number of poles as used originally , sourced say from Thorens or Linn or Poject plus some DIY would bring it back. Than that motor can be used with a good power supply, say Project Speed Box SE, taking it to another level. The use of the printed circuit board material ( that brown(ish) stuff ) for the platter is to my knowledge still unique. Nothing else that can compare was ever available.
   
  This table is briliant design - in spite or because of its looks. Absolutely no metallic resonances that pleague Thorens, Linn etc ( its unique subchassis is couple of wood pieces screwed together - light, rigid, non resonant ) - being "basic and primitive" in the eyes of the usual bling blinded audiophile - this ugly duckling, coupled with a great arm and cart, turns into sonically beautiful swan.
   
  Just found there were 3 models - CJ 55, CJ 58, and super rare CJ 61 - here on YT vid:
   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maMA3qi13_g
   
  Note the precision of the platter - no "motion" visible.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I do regret that I gave it up. Funny thing about this hobby, you go through different era's....(I have been at this for nearly 40 years!) I have a lead on a nice used TT. We'll see if it works out and I'll post some pics. I have 400+ albums waiting for a new friend to play with! All YSL sleeved and Lasted waiting to come out and play....


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> I do regret that I gave it up. Funny thing about this hobby, you go through different era's....(I have been at this for nearly 40 years!) I have a lead on a nice used TT. We'll see if it works out and I'll post some pics. I have 400+ albums waiting for a new friend to play with! All YSL sleeved and Lasted waiting to come out and play....


 
  No idea of your budget for your new "vinyl grinder" - but here one that only very rarely makes an appearence on epray: http://www.ebay.de/itm/290898879504?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
   
  Couple that with http://www.ebay.de/itm/300891151434?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 and you have a problem - necessity to make a straight damping trough. Together, they should really be yummi ...


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  That would be a fun project. A bit more DIY for me at the moment. Thanks for the lead though....We'll see if I can win the bid on my current attempt. It is more to what I am looking for atm.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> That would be a fun project. A bit more DIY for me at the moment. Thanks for the lead though....We'll see if I can win the bid on my current attempt. It is more to what I am looking for atm.


 
  Well, thought a good solid non spriiing....y turntable and air bearing arm would go nicely together. When you look at the same/similar/comparable new prices - brrrr...
   
  Hope you get yours - any hint what broadly you have on mind ? 400 LASTed LP waiting for action deserve something quite nice.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Looking at something with a nice combo of quality parts. Nothing like a VPI classic or SOTA (That would be nice!) but it will be a good starting point for getting back into vinyl....Then there is the phono stage to consider....Gotta be careful! It can add up quickly....


----------



## Eee Pee

VPI Traveler, grab a Decware ZP3 phono stage to match your other stuff, pick a cartridge and let em spin!


----------



## longbowbbs

Can't imagine why I would add a ZP3?...


----------



## Greyson

---


----------



## snapontom

I can't recommend the Spin Clean, or any record cleaner enough.  I have been purchasing albums for $.50 to $2 and after cleaning them, they sound great.  I enjoy going through the racks.  Picked up Abraxis by Santana, Carol King Tapestry, and Blood Sweat and Tears first album, John Barleycorn by Traffic etc etc etc.  I have resonance problems, tapping on my shelf, TT deck, and record all come through the speakers.  I don't know what to do short of buying a new TT.  Also, my phono stage picks up hum depending on where I place it.  If I move it near my amp it gets louder.  All my equip is tube from the TT.


----------



## shipsupt

For once being the UK seems to be paying off... I guess it doesn't release until tomorrow here and I was able to just pre-order a copy on Amazon.com.
   
   
  Quote: 





eee pee said:


> OH YEAH!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Persistance and driving all over town and talking to people paid off!


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





shipsupt said:


> For once being the UK seems to be paying off... I guess it doesn't release until tomorrow here and I was able to just pre-order a copy on Amazon.com.


 
   
  Say what!?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  The record?
   
  Link me, please.


----------



## shipsupt

Sorry, I didn't see your message until today.  It appears to be gone.  I assume you had to get in on the pre-order. 
   
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Melon-Bonus-Tracks-VINYL/dp/B00BYS0SL8/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1366665524&sr=1-1&keywords=blind+melon
   
   
  Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Say what!?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## dscythe

i like how searching "blind melon vinyl" on the Canadian amazon yields only cd results


----------



## Eee Pee

shipsupt said:


> Sorry, I didn't see your message until today...


 
   
  That takes a little charm out of the "RSD only" release of it.
   
  Oh well, at least I have one, and can maybe get another.
   
  Didn't think to add the .uk at the end to see the UK Amazon site... 
  Quote: 





dscythe said:


> i like how searching "blind melon vinyl" on the Canadian amazon yields only cd results


 
  Same here in the States.
   
   
  Just watched one go on eBay for $68.  I paid $26.


----------



## analogsurviver

Collateral demage # ( x+1 ) : http://www.noisemademedoit.com/tag/vinyl/page/2/


----------



## Silent One

Enjoyed the Sade pix the link provided.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Enjoyed the Sade pix the link provided.


 
  Although I liked the Grant Snider cartoon best of all those pics, this pic of Sade enjoying vinyl in the privacy of her home is the most "humane".


----------



## grokit

That kind of reminds me of this image...


----------



## Silent One

I always enjoyed that shot of Steve... classic.


----------



## Eee Pee

Yeah but he's facing the wrong way!


----------



## ProcessJunkie

Took some minutes to take some decent pictures, finally.

 Also, as i was bored of my wallpaper, i decided to make a new one.




 I have it in B&W as well, if guys want to use it, drop me a line and i upload it to dropbox or something.


----------



## calipilot227

Love it! RP1?


----------



## RamblinE

Quote: 





processjunkie said:


> Took some minutes to take some decent pictures, finally.
> 
> Also, as i was bored of my wallpaper, i decided to make a new one.
> 
> ...


 
  Great photos of a great table! Record store I like lets you use one to demo used records.... I like it!


----------



## ProcessJunkie

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Love it! RP1?


 
  Yes, Sir.


----------



## calipilot227

How are you liking it?


----------



## analogsurviver

You gotta say YES to another excess : record weight _tres particuler_ ( mistook it for the Tour de Eiffel )
   
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/gallery/image.php?mode=large&image_id=20377


----------



## ProcessJunkie

If they do one shaped like a Lightsaber (with glow to aid the needledrop) i'm sold.


----------



## ProcessJunkie

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> How are you liking it?


 
  So far so good, so very good. I'm still burning in the cartrigde, but i already can see a improvement from the day i unboxed it, i'm discovering things and samples in my vinyl that my old technics couldn't bring up. I totally recommend the RP1, master bang for the buck.


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> You gotta say YES to another excess : record weight _tres particuler_ ( mistook it for the Tour de Eiffel )
> 
> http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/gallery/image.php?mode=large&image_id=20377


 
   
  Wouldn't too much weight screw up D/D and belt-drive systems?


----------



## MorbidToaster

It really all depends on the turntable.
   
  Quote: 





blackenedplague said:


> Wouldn't too much weight screw up D/D and belt-drive systems?


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





blackenedplague said:


> Wouldn't too much weight screw up D/D and belt-drive systems?


 
  I thought it to be more joke than anything else, but since it was on a still normally looking suspended subchassis Thorens, it must be relatively low weight. My personal preference is for clamps that usually do not weigh more than 100 or so grams - unlikely to cause any ill effects even in low mass subchassis designs. Record weight has to be more massive than that in order to have a chance to perform, but more strain put on the main bearing of lesser turntables can lead to premature use etc.
It can also disrupt the subchassis adjustment, in more extreme cases platter/subchassis might sink
enough to brush against the plinth, etc . 
   
It really depends on the characteristics of the turntable.


----------



## s4s4s4

don't forget increased bearing noise


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





s4s4s4 said:


> don't forget increased bearing noise


 
  You are correct. However, if 100 gram additional mass is going to increase bearing noise, that bearing was designed with next to zero tolerance for increased mass - and a heavy LP pressing of say 200 gram is 80 gram more than "regular" 120 gram pressing. That 80 gram is more of a difference than some light clamps on the market.
   
  Now very much  TTs are built like Melco from Japan ( something describable in superlatives only, if a tank and a Melco crash, likelihood of tank coming out of this encounter unscaved is slim ... ), but any reasonable bearing should be capable of supporting at least additional 100 - 500 gram without ill effects. Check with the TT manufacturer to stay on the safe side.


----------



## penmarker

Can 100 gram weights make a difference? I'm holding my coin box which is 99.5 grams and it feels too light to flatten the record.


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





penmarker said:


> Can 100 gram weights make a difference? I'm holding my coin box which is 99.5 grams and it feels too light to flatten the record.


 
  that's probably why many people shoot for threaded clamps


----------



## Baxide

There is a bit of misconception that found its way into the clamp weight market and method of use. The weight can only keep the center of the record flat. If you got a light weight vinyl and a soft mat, a heavy weight will actually cause the record to buckle upwards at the outer edge.


----------



## analogsurviver

Record weights placed over label area only can go so far - they can not flatten a "concave dished" record, they can achieve flattening only with "convex dished". In most cases, they will make situation of perfectly flat record that would have been in contact with rhe platter/mat across the whole surface, as it should have been supported, worse - by lifting the record at its outer edge.
   
  Threaded clamps are basically the same thing - IF they do not use some kind of washer around the spindle, stressing the record across label area and usually sucessful in flattening even "concave dished" rercords. For those with normal unthreaded spindles - if there is a reasonable amount of spindle protruding above the record label, there are a few commercially available clamps that grab on whatever reasonably available spindle and achieve the goal by using some washer under the spindle. Usually, this amount of spindle is very limited and the thickness of the washer under the spindle must be meticulously adjusted to just achieve flattening and still hold well enough not to loose grip during one side of the record, say 30 minutes. If your case happens to be on the verge of achieving this with normal 120-140g records, you will curse 180 g and heavier pressings - usually, they can not be clamped using unthreaded clamp with washer under the spindle. 
   
  THE MOST BASIC RULE : whatever you are using in order to flatten the record and bring it in contact with the platter/mat across the whole surface - if you look from the profile and can see any gap between the platter/mat and record itself - this whatever is not doing its job properly. 
  Record weights are particularly prone to doing this, one of the solutions adopted by some manufacturers was to use slightly concave dished platter and/or mat, most commonly used without any weights or clamps.
   
  All that said - once you hear - or better live with vacuum hold down system - for at least a weekend, you will grasp that no weight/clamp can give so good results. It would have to weigh some 200 kg, evenly distributed across the entire record surface - Mission Impossible.
   
  Vacuum hold down  is NOT without drawbacks ( besides being pricey ) - it will force you to scrupolously clean the
  UNPLAYED surface of the record and platter/mat - any debris caught in the middle can get imbeded//pressed into vinyl leading from increase in noise to skipping. Although it is the only method of getting severely warped records ( short of record flattener devices ) into playable condition, its greatest forte is with normally warped/flat discs - once heard, it is hard to go back to non vacuum hold down system.


----------



## longbowbbs

Well, back to square one. Lost the ebay auction...Time to re-evaluate what I want since I was not willing to up the bid on the unit I was trying for....


----------



## s4s4s4

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> You are correct. However, if 100 gram additional mass is going to increase bearing noise, that bearing was designed with next to zero tolerance for increased mass - and a heavy LP pressing of say 200 gram is 80 gram more than "regular" 120 gram pressing. That 80 gram is more of a difference than some light clamps on the market.
> 
> Now very much  TTs are built like Melco from Japan ( something describable in superlatives only, if a tank and a Melco crash, likelihood of tank coming out of this encounter unscaved is slim ... ), but any reasonable bearing should be capable of supporting at least additional 100 - 500 gram without ill effects. Check with the TT manufacturer to stay on the safe side.


 
  I meant the big big heavy weights not the 100g ones


----------



## RamblinE

I just ordered an AT92E cartridge for my p-mount Denon... I'm afraid the stylus on the Ortofon that came with it is going. A lot of folks say the 92E is a good budget cartridge and based on the same generator at the 95E 1/2 mount and the Linn K9. Excited!


----------



## RamblinE

Just got the AT92E in this afternoon. Skipping class to do some homework and break the cartridge in. For $20? I'm LOVING IT SO FAR. Very listenable with my K701s, which HATE bad sources.


----------



## ProcessJunkie

Sorry if anyone has ever said that, but that rack doesn't seem so stable to put a TT on top of it.


----------



## RamblinE

Oh yeah I know. At some point I need to get a butchers block to stick the table on top of.


----------



## CrazyRay

RambinE, the butcher block is a start, you also need to beef up the legs of the stand by a huge amount. 
i.e. you need a different stand, what you have will not work.


----------



## calipilot227

I have the larger version of that stand in my garage. You'd actually be surprised how sturdy it is (if it's the same one, think I got it at Home Depot).


----------



## RamblinE

I'm currently only pouring pennies into my setup until I find that better college job that pays more that probably doesn't exist. I'm not worried as much about upgrading the stand though I appreciate the concern. Eventually when my living situation stabalizes I'm going for wall-mounting. 
   
  Meanwhile as long as I'm not walking around in the room very little in the way of extra vibration is transfered to the turntable. Hard to walk around with headphones on


----------



## CrazyRay

Hi RambinE, I don't know if you are able to get the end caps off of the legs?

 If you can, fill the legs with lead shot / lead pellets / pennies / BB's / sand or anything else that is heavy.

 You want the stand to be heavy, putting a butchers block on top will only make the stand top heavy.


----------



## RamblinE

I may get with my carpenter buddy about making a small end table with a base full of lead shot after I get the Pro-Ject I want...


----------



## lausar

SWEEET!


----------



## matthewh133

Quote: 





rambline said:


> Just got the AT92E in this afternoon. Skipping class to do some homework and break the cartridge in. For $20? I'm LOVING IT SO FAR. Very listenable with my K701s, which HATE bad sources.


 
   
  Oh man killer LP! I have the same one


----------



## RamblinE

Quote: 





matthewh133 said:


> Oh man killer LP! I have the same one


 
  It is! I've got a lot of post-rock on my PC but I'm looking to expand that collection via vinyl as well.


----------



## matthewh133

Quote: 





rambline said:


> It is! I've got a lot of post-rock on my PC but I'm looking to expand that collection via vinyl as well.


 
   
  If I was you I'd be getting on the pre-order list for the repress of "Shels  Plains of the Purple Buffalo". They only did 300 copies of the original pressing. This pressing is being done this month and probably shipped later in the month.
   
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0sg6UrQjC4
   
  http://www.ccnow.com/cgi-local/cart.cgi?shelsmusic_SHELS-ALBUM6_continue-page
   
  Probably my second favorite album of all time. The whole thing is just an epic journey.


----------



## RIQUE

Hi Folks,  Thought I would share my pride and joy. This is a highly modded VPI MKV
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Hope you like.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





rique said:


> Hi Folks,  Thought I would share my pride and joy. This is a highly modded VPI MKV
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Spectacular Rique!! Have you passed that photo on to Mat Weisfeld? He would love to see it.


----------



## Eee Pee

Yeah that's real nice!  My HW-19 says hello!


----------



## RIQUE

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> Spectacular Rique!! Have you passed that photo on to Mat Weisfeld? He would love to see it.


 
  Like you like. Had not thought of showing it to Mat.


----------



## dmcs414

Here's a picture of my girl.  Since the 'real' girlfriend and I called it quits recently, it's just me and my beautiful Rega now.
   
  Oh, but how she is in desperate need of love of companionship as much anyone!  See how sad she looks?  Every day I get that same sullen look;  *sigh*  "Would it be too much to hope that you might've settled on speakers at least yet? ...don't think I don't see how obvious this growing vinyl collection here is only meant to torment me."


----------



## snapontom

This is my TT.  It is on a better stand now.  I will keep it because it sounds good and I really like the feature it has where the tonearm lifts up and the motor turns off at the end of playing an album side.  I don't have the opportunity to AB it with a VPI classic, but I wonder how much better a $3000 TT would sound with a $1000 cartridge.   Any thoughts?


----------



## RIQUE

Quote: 





snapontom said:


> This is my TT.  It is on a better stand now.  I will keep it because it sounds good and I really like the feature it has where the tonearm lifts up and the motor turns off at the end of playing an album side.  I don't have the opportunity to AB it with a VPI classic, but I wonder how much better a $3000 TT would sound with a $1000 cartridge.   Any thoughts?


 
  A $3000 TT with a 1500$ cartridge and some record flattening accessories would sound really much better. Cartridge technology has improved considerably in the last 10 years specially the manufacturing process. New materiales and computerized solderings as well as other hight tech controls.  A quailty turntable such as the one I have a VPI MKV can be had cheap from ebay and upgraded or you can get a scout or the like. There are also some other great brands are great prices like Rega, Avid, Linn,.... Conclusion. You can get much better sound that what you are getting right now.


----------



## MorbidToaster

dmcs414 said:


> Here's a picture of my girl.  Since the 'real' girlfriend and I called it quits recently, it's just me and my beautiful Rega now.
> 
> Oh, but how she is in desperate need of love of companionship as much anyone!  See how sad she looks?  Every day I get that same sullen look;  *sigh*  "Would it be too much to hope that you might've settled on speakers at least yet? ...don't think I don't see how obvious this growing vinyl collection here is only meant to torment me."




I know that look. I get the same one from my TT when 'other wife' wants to watch TV.


----------



## CrazyRay

Hi all, here are a couple of shots of my new 45 pound, solid maple, turntable base in black piano finish.
 Talk about solid!


----------



## Eee Pee

Nice CrazyRay!  That wood dustcover is incredible!  Must be nice to lift that up.
   
   
  So I paid twice what this will be worth when it's released in a few weeks, but I got me a Record Store Day release.
   
   

   
  It joins my original copy, along with an original CD and the re-released 2 CD and DVD set.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Finally got the tin foil on my window taken down, so I thought I'd put up a new picture that's a bit less noisy


----------



## MorbidToaster

Good lookin' BTBAM vinyl there.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

morbidtoaster said:


> Good lookin' BTBAM vinyl there.




It's the Parallax 1 the hyper sleep dialogues, I actually just took it out for the first time since buying it at RSD, inspired me to take the picture actually cause I also though it looked really cool


----------



## lausar




----------



## Eee Pee

souprknowva said:


> Finally got the tin foil on my window taken down…




I thought you were a little weird when I met ya…


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> I thought you were a little weird when I met ya…


----------



## SoupRKnowva

eee pee said:


> I thought you were a little weird when I met ya…




Hey now, tin foil is truly the cheapest/easiest way to black out windows, which is necessary when you're forced to sleep during the middle of the day lol


----------



## digitalmind

Some very beautiful tables in this thread..


----------



## OPR8R

Hello, fellow turntable lovers.  I just found this thread.  I'd posted these in the "[size=10.909090995788574px]Show us your Head-Fi station at it's current state. No old pictures please"[/size]  thread previously.  They're probably more appropriate/appreciated here.  Apologies to those who've already seen these, but since I can just copy/paste, I could not resist.
   
It's very black.
 
   
  You have to look closely to read the model.

   
  The RB303 tonearm.

   
  The delicious Ortofon 2M Black cartridge.

   
   
  Comes with a wool mat.

   
   
   
  Glass platter, without mat.


----------



## Silent One

I love the room, digitalmind!


----------



## RIQUE

Quote: 





silent one said:


> I love the room, digitalmind!


 
   
  Yours is one of them. Tell us more about your table setup.


----------



## RIQUE

Is the inner glass and out metal? look awsome.


----------



## s4s4s4

Think the bike is my favourite part.


----------



## RIQUE

This is a tad off topic but could I get some suggestions for some clear white vinyl records. Not the colored ones but the all white tranlucents. Thanks. riq


----------



## digitalmind

rique said:


> Yours is one of them. Tell us more about your table setup.


 
   
  Thanks, however compared to most setups here it's fairly basic. It's a Thorens TD-147 with an Ortofon MC3 Turbo. I put it on spikes in the hope that it would fix some vibration issues (wooden floors...) but it's not helping, so I'll need a wallmount soon. 
   
  For the rest I use an AVM V3 preamp, Hiraga class-a poweramp, and Tannoy Berkeleys.


----------



## Alonski

I use two TT. In my "Staging" room (where albums are cleaned and auditioned) is my beloved Alphason Sonata (which I bought in 1987) with solid titanium Alphason HR100MCS arm with Van Den Hul Mono Crystal Silver wires and a Madrigal Carnegie One cartridge designed by Mark Levinson.
   
  Below is my main listening room TT, The Townshend Rock 7 with Excalibur 3 arm and the amazing Ortofon Cadenza Bronze. Analog heaven.


----------



## Alonski

Quote: 





rique said:


> This is a tad off topic but could I get some suggestions for some clear white vinyl records. Not the colored ones but the all white tranlucents. Thanks. riq


 
  Hey Riq,
   
  Ryko Analog has two clear vinyl albums that I own: Bowie's Ziggy Stardust, and Jimmy Hendrix Experience Radio One. They look great, but both are really bright pressings, which is a shame since I would otherwise use them with guests (digital skeptics) to demo the TTs.
  I look forward to more suggestions from others.
  Cheers,
  Alón


----------



## shipsupt

My current favorite clear vinyl:
   

   
  Quote: 





rique said:


> This is a tad off topic but could I get some suggestions for some clear white vinyl records. Not the colored ones but the all white tranlucents. Thanks. riq


----------



## Silent One

Clear vinyl (and coloured) look fantastic!


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

My friend needs a turntable recommendation with a hard limit of $450


----------



## Skylab

Well, MusicDirect sells the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon + Ortofon 2M Red for $399. That's the no muss, no fuss way to go. In that price range I of course would buy used/vintage direct drive and a better cartridge, but you have to do your own cartridge set up then.


----------



## BLACKENEDPLAGUE

Yeah he was looking at that and I said to get the Music Hall MMF 2.2 that Needle Doctor had for $449


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Well, MusicDirect sells the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon + Ortofon 2M Red for $399. That's the no muss, no fuss way to go. In that price range I of course would buy used/vintage direct drive and a better cartridge, but you have to do your own cartridge set up then.


 
  +1.
   
  In general, you can get better overall performance from vintage gear vs "new age" - IF you can do basic maintenance and proper cartridge setup yourself. That "IF"
  assumes you have alignment tool(s) , a test record, a tracking force gauge - to stay at bare necessities. You will ( have to ) get those at one point or another if you will be continuing using vinyl - but if funds are strictly limited and if you prefer or even demand plug and play version at present, a basic "new age" TT is perhaps more reasonable choice. Projects, Regas, MMFs in your price bracket. Sometimes bundles with good cartridges are available - always worth checking out before pulling the trigger.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





blackenedplague said:


> My friend needs a turntable recommendation with a hard limit of $450


 
  IMO the Rega RP1 is the best at that price. That's what I bought for my Dad to replace his old Thorens.
  The Denon DP300F is a surprising good rig as well. One benefit is that it has a built in phono-pre-amp that one can bypass.
  The included cartridge is not great but Needle Doctor sells it set up with the excellent Ortofon 2M Red.
  http://www.needledoctor.com/Denon-DP300F-with-2M-Red-Package?sc=9&category=-109


----------



## MorbidToaster

+1 on an RP1.
   
  Quote: 





parbaked said:


> IMO the Rega RP1 is the best at that price. That's what I bought for my Dad to replace his old Thorens.
> The Denon DP300F is a surprising good rig as well. One benefit is that it has a built in phono-pre-amp that one can bypass.
> The included cartridge is not great but Needle Doctor sells it set up with the excellent Ortofon 2M Red.
> http://www.needledoctor.com/Denon-DP300F-with-2M-Red-Package?sc=9&category=-109


----------



## chrstnwarrior88

blackenedplague said:


> My friend needs a turntable recommendation with a hard limit of $450


I recently purchased a pro-ject rm 1.3 genie on the for sale forums. Paired with my grado platinum it is amazing but a little out of your price range. But if buy used and get something like the grado black (I'm kind of a grado fanboy) you could stay in your price range and have a great set up. Mine blows my vintage technics out of the water to my ears. Anyway that's my 2 cents. Good luck


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





shipsupt said:


> My current favorite clear vinyl:


 
   
  OH MY GOD, YES!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## grokit

It's back! Sneak preview:
   

   

   

   

   


Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!



 



   
  Not pictured: Strobe disabler, "Super low noise" Cardas arm re-wire.
   
  Gonna be a few more days until it's fully set up and going, plus I need to get my record cleaning machine back first as I lent to a friend.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





grokit said:


> It's back! Sneak preview:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   




   
  Can't wait for you to get it _"Dialed-in"_ again! I too, have the Cardas re-wire for my TT.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





grokit said:


> It's back! Sneak preview:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Which Grado did you end up with - Black to get to know the family sound ?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Which Grado did you end up with - Black to get to know the family sound ?


 
   
  No, I went for the "Red1 model is selected from the Blue1 production run and meets higher test specifications. Approximately 10% of the production run will meet these standards and become Red1 models". I decided I wanted to have a "culled" rather than a "sub-par" model, as the Silver1 is the 95% that supposedly weren't good enough to be Gold1s. Also the Red/Blue is the same construction as the Silver/Gold with the 4-piece cantilever, the only difference is that the Silver/Gold use UHPLC wire and the Red/Blue use standard OFC.
   
  By this logic, I would have opted for the Green over the Black for $20 (15% culled). However I feel I will be getting an honest sampling of the best of the Grado Prestige line by going for the 4-piece cantilever. If I like it quite a bit, I will be back to the dilemma of choosing between the KAB Gold1 and the AVA Longhorn. If I'm not crazy about it I have that Dynavector in my sights, but with the new arm and mods in place I am also looking forward to giving the 103R/AU-300LC another shot as well.
   
  The Red1 is $60 more than the Green1, but $80 less than the Gold1 and after spending way too much time thinking about it I felt it was the best value in the Prestige Lineup. Perhaps it's worth $80 for the better wire, but that would be one of the differences when I upgrade anyways.
   
  I am $pent ATM anyways so the Denon and the Red will have to do for a while regardless.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





grokit said:


> It's back! Sneak preview:
> Not pictured: Strobe disabler, "Super low noise" Cardas arm re-wire.
> Gonna be a few more days until it's fully set up and going, plus I need to get my record cleaning machine back first as I lent to a friend.


 
   
  I've got to look into this. I have a 1200MK2 that has had very little use and is boxed up and in my closet. I bought it new in 2009 for $330 from Amazon. Time to give it new life.


----------



## tattare

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> I've got to look into this. I have a 1200MK2 that has had very little use and is boxed up and in my closet. I bought it new in 2009 for $330 from Amazon. Time to give it new life.


 
  Have you seen the straight arm mods?
   
  mods: http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/m1200.htm
  mods I cant afford: http://www.thefunkfirm.co.uk/turntable_upgrades/SL1200_upgrade.html
http://www.audiomods.co.uk/technicsarm.html


----------



## Bee inthe Attic

Quote: 





rique said:


> This is a tad off topic but could I get some suggestions for some clear white vinyl records. Not the colored ones but the all white tranlucents. Thanks. riq


 
   
  If you're still looking... Elvis Costello's _The Delivery Man_ (Limited Edition clear vinyl)


----------



## Silent One

I really like the look of the clear vinyl issues. Coloured versions as well... very nice, Bee inthe Attic!


----------



## MohawkUS

I can't believe that I was thinking of selling this table. I used to doubt how much of a difference the cartridge can make but I sold my old Dual and the cheap AT70 went with it. I was able to snag this Nagaoka MP150 off Ebay for about $100 and wow. The old cliche "I'm hearing more in my music" is true to a degree; but the difference is more in presentation. The music is more solid, more fleshed out, and coherent. I had tried a Goldring 1042 before and found it worse than the AT70 hence my skepticism. From here on out I think I'll stick to the Moving Iron carts. :regular_smile :


----------



## Silent One

Nicely photographed!


----------



## MohawkUS

silent one said:


> Nicely photographed!




Thanks. I actually had to sit down and try to figure out how to use my camera for that one. I usually just use the auto but it wasn't working this time. I didn't have to resort to reading the manual though so my dignity is still intact. :bigsmile_face:


----------



## Mambosenior

I am once again in my listening room. This guy has been good to me:


----------



## Eee Pee




----------



## RamblinE

Finally got my hands on a turntable worthy of a sturdier rack. The NAD 5120. 
   


   
  Sorry about the trash on the desk. I was eating chips and salsa. 
   
  That tonearm is indeed flat. It's a PCB. The headshell leads are soldered to points on the underside of the arm. The arm "unplugs" from the unipivot base. Hell it even bends and flexes. I believe the flexible arm is supposed to eat up resonances and vibrations where a more rigid arm transmits them. The platter is neat too. Thin waffer of metal with almost an inch of rubber mat on top. 
   
  Even with a cheap AT92E on it, it's the smoothest, most linear sounding turntable I've had yet. This thing is worthy of a new belt and a better cartridge as soon as I can make it happen.


----------



## Eee Pee

That's a funny looking thing.  
   
  You can't eat crunchy foods and listen to music at the same time!


----------



## RIQUE

Thats a classic NAD table that has always intrigued me. More pics would be appreciated. Show us tha thick mat and
  the arm details. Hope you enjoy.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





rambline said:


> Finally got my hands on a turntable worthy of a sturdier rack. The NAD 5120.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  The real name of this extraordinary design is Tesla NC 470. Designed in early 80s by late Jiri Janda of Tesla Litovel from what was then Czechoslovakia. The same factory today produces Project and MMF tables at lower end of the price spectrum and EAT in the higher priced echelons.
   
  It is the most innovative and cunning design I ever came across. It most definitely puncehes far above its weight. The main idea was to use the laws of physics to the benefit of extracting most info from the grooves, not trying to achieve the impossible by fighting physics. Its most unique feature is the flat tonearm made out of PCB material - arm is meant to be floppy in the vertical direction and to be very rigid in horizontal direction, much more so than tubular arm can be. In addition, it has dynamic antiresonator counterweight, which can be tuned to the exact frequency and Q in order to reduce the effects of that enemy #1 of phono reproduction, the cartridge/arm resonance around 10 Hz. The result is firmness in bass that has to be heard to be believed.
   
  Since about november, I have bought three of NAD 5120s, as it was called for export to the West. It is FAR from being a finished article, but its potential is so high it is worth any trouble. It is the singular most powerful proof of the saying you must never judge the book by its cover - or turntable by its looks. When I first saw it in late 1982 (or was it 83 ? ) at our Electronics Fair, it looked so plasticky with its rubber platter and outlandish tonearm, that compared to immaculate looks of the Revox at the adjacent booth made it look like a toy. The people from the factory did not speak English and at the time my knowledge of Czech/Slovak was zero. The beautiful hostesses had no technical knowledge - so reluctantly I went away without learning any real info about this ugly duckling.
   
  The thing is made to a price point, it is not an all out assault with the best materials and/or execution - yet the basic idea works so well that it is worth developing further. The main drawback - it is very poorly shielded from hum - besides normal 50/60 Hz hum you will get high frequency buzzing that is subdued to acceptable levels only by using low impedance cartridges. Any normal MM will buzz.
   
  The flat floppy arm has a nasty vertical/torsional resonance at approx 150 Hz, mostly affecting the right channel. It was issue enough that NAD came up with a normal tubular arm version later on. It does not exhibit so pronounced resonance(s) at around 150 Hz as flat arm does - but the magic of midrange and treble flat arm poseses is missing.
   
  The entire arm is detacheable from its bearing ( it is NOT a unipivot bearing ) - via 4 pin DIN connector - in seconds. You can have sound from the preadjusted arm/cartridge combination(s) ( geometry, tracking force, antiresonator frequency and Q - all preadjusted ) back in about a minute - you just have to set the antiskating for the arm//cart in use; only half a minute more is required in case you have to adjust the lift height if you change from flat to round arm or vice versa. This possibility of changing the entire tonearm is fairly rare; Technics EPA 250/500 had it ( along with fixed nonadjustable antiresonator on 500, adjustable on 250 ), Keith Monks arm had it, as does VPI today. It is by far the least expensive of the bunch with this capability.
   
  Viewed from today's perspective, most annoying omission is the total lack of possibility to adjust VTA. Due to construction of the arm mounting/bearing, very hard to do, even at cost no object level of construction. 
   
  If above sounds like bad rep - it is not meant that way at all. A properly adjusted stock Tesla NC 470 / NAD 5120 / Lenco L 802 with any cartridge not exceeding 8 gram or so of mass is a formidable turntable as it is. You would be really hard pressed to get this kind of high SQ at anything like several times the price of the Tesla/NAD/Lenco. Yes, it was really sold under all three makes/models.
   
  As it is a predecessor of many current Projects with which it shares motor, it can be used with Project ( and Music Hall ) Speed Boxes. A neat trick is to place the belt on the pulley meant for 45 RPM, select 45 RPM on speed box - voila, 78 RPM ! - besides all the improvements usual for external power supply.
   
  Here one of the vidz on YT - round arm, orange single to show the rubber platter, and "new age" mod with blue LED ( the only thing I hate and object to in audio looks/design ) - original had orange neon lamp or in later versions ( built from 1983-1995) a red LED. Single knob operation for both on/off and tonearm lift - once you get used to it, very convinient. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPf9kSij33Y
   
  I intend to tie the loose ends in this design to allow its potential to really shine. Although it would still look pretty much the same, the mod will be an entirely different animal. Goodness is achieved by proper basic design - which NC470/5120/L802 has in spades. Excellence by attention to detail - something beyond reach at the original price and the possibilities of 30 years ago.
   
  If you run across one, give it a try. It is more work to get the antiresonator adjusted correctly - but once experienced the performance of which it is capable, you will find going back to normal arm really hard and unacceptable.
   
  Warning - that counterweight atiresonator is VERY susceptible to demage in shipping - it absolutely must be prepared for shipping as described in user manual. Not that it can not be properly rebuilt if it snaps out of place - but it is annoying and time consuming procedure that can be avoided by proper packaging.


----------



## RamblinE

Thank you for all of that information analogsurvivor! That was a good read and I think I'm going to look into anti-resonance adjustments as well as getting this guy a new belt (I do hear it slipping a little bit) 
   
  What kind of cartridge would you suggest under $100USD? I'm thinking I would try the AT95E however I'm not so much on the up-and-up about cartridges.


----------



## Jesterphile

Here's mine:
   

   
  Lovely old turntable.


----------



## MohawkUS

rambline said:


> Thank you for all of that information analogsurvivor! That was a good read and I think I'm going to look into anti-resonance adjustments as well as getting this guy a new belt (I do hear it slipping a little bit)
> 
> What kind of cartridge would you suggest under $100USD? I'm thinking I would try the AT95E however I'm not so much on the up-and-up about cartridges.




I'd suggest a Nagaoka MP100. The MP150 I have is better than the Goldring 1042 IMO so I expect their entry level cart to be pretty competent itself.


----------



## s4s4s4

**** i remember that nad, have not seen one of those in ages.


----------



## RIQUE

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> Here's mine:
> 
> 
> 
> Lovely old turntable.


 
  nice table. Thought it was a Denon at first.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





rambline said:


> Thank you for all of that information analogsurvivor! That was a good read and I think I'm going to look into anti-resonance adjustments as well as getting this guy a new belt (I do hear it slipping a little bit)
> 
> What kind of cartridge would you suggest under $100USD? I'm thinking I would try the AT95E however I'm not so much on the up-and-up about cartridges.


 
  You can get as high as original AT Micro Line stylus for your AT92 cart - about 150 $. I would caution against it in view of the fact this TT does not have "official" VTA adjustment. Jico makes a nice Shibata stylus that fits your AT92 - at about $ 80, perhaps the most reasonable decision. AT95 is not bad and I have yet to try it on NAD flat arm - but above mentioned Shibata should be far better.
   
  With its antiresonator, Tesla/NAD arm can accomodate "any" cartridge as long as it is not too massive to counterbalance, at least to the tracking force required if not fully to zero. Officially, that is 8 gram, but you can have a 10 gram cart tracking at 2 grammes - or there about. You will need external tracking force gauge in such case.
   
  Once my NAD will be up where I want it, it will have a Benz Micro Ruby Open Air or TR as its "sting"; these carts exceed your proposed cartridge budget roughly 30-40 times. And no, I do not think they are overkill in this application !
   
  If you can wait a week or two, I would like to try a certain cart in NAD flat arm; that thing somehow found its way to my place, you can kill me and I do not remember where or from whom it came - yet when I briefly tried it, this absolutely no name cart raised my eyebrows more than it has any right to do. Later I found out what it is and how much it does (not) cost - I have to re-check it and live with it for say at least couple of days mounted in flat arm.
  If it makes the grade, will reveal what it is. It is WELL within your budget.
   
  But, as I said - you can mount pretty much any cart that is not too heavy or not too high or shallow to appreciably alter the VTA . Only the extremely high or extremely low compliance models should be avoided.
   
  I have seen Nagaoka models recommended - yes, good carts. If you can somehow get MP11 Boron at friendly price - worth stretching the budget a bit.
   
  FYI - Grado carts behave in properly adjusted Tesla/NAD arm as they should - NO dreaded Grado dance. I use Signature 8 MC X body ( low output, 9 mH inductance ) with much too low model stylus at the moment ( original worn , awaiting funds ) - and it sounds freakin' awesome. I have never heard a Grado sounding so secure in everything, but particularly bass is rock solid - something that Grado always gets criticized for in other arms.


----------



## RamblinE

I've got a Grado Prestige Green. The turntable itself came with a Grado MF3 with a pot stylus. I may put the Green stylus in the MF3, put the MF3 back on the arm and see how it sounds....


----------



## grokit

I have a Red but I think the Green is probably the sweet price/value spot in the stock Prestige lineup @ $60 cheaper.
  Kind of like comparing an RS80 vs. an RS225


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





rambline said:


> I've got a Grado Prestige Green. The turntable itself came with a Grado MF3 with a pot stylus. I may put the Green stylus in the MF3, put the MF3 back on the arm and see how it sounds....


 
  Either MF3 or Prestige Green will do. If you have not already, download user manual for NAD 5120 from vinylengine - there are settings for antiresonator for a couple of Grado carts from early 80s. These settings will not be as accurate as adjusting the damping for your very cart/stylus using test disc, but should not be too far off. Any test record with a vertical modulation should do,  one with discrete single frequency per band is to be preferred over sweep(s). I used Shure ERA IV Obstacle Course record for this purpose ( ERA V is better, but seats sealed in my "vault", awaiting use when ERA IV definitely wears out too much - vertical resonace bands are the most prone to wear of all the test signals ). NAD produced its own dedicated test record for 5120 - it has bands from 5 Hz to 15 Hz in 1 Hz steps and allow for the most precise adjustment of antiresonator for best performanve without having to resort to measuring equipment. You will need keen sight and proper lighting with some good white background to perform the adjustment of antiresonator using test disc - the movement of the counterweight at the resonant frequency is small and hard to see. Best to observe the gap between the counterweight and its carrier, which gets "modulated" at the resonant frequency. You have to start with screw for Q totally disengaged from the level of silicone fluid in the damping through ( damping as per scale 0 ) - matching the resonant frequency of the arm/cartridge resonance and resonance of the counterweight first. Then you apply Q adjustment screw till there is minimal influence of vertical modulation not only at the resonant frequency, but also rather broad range around it.
   
  This antiresonator on Tesla/NAD is quite effective - it will reduce the peak of the resonance by at least 6 dB. Remember, audible rumble gets reduced by the exact same amount in the region affected - meaning NAD will be audibly quieter with real records than arms that take no action against resonance.


----------



## grokit

I thought this was going to be a saxophone album...


----------



## Silent One




----------



## magiccabbage

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I thought this was going to be a saxophone album...


 
  but byrd is a guitarist right? Maybe im missing the joke?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





silent one said:


>


 
   


Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!



 
  Charlie Parker's nickname was Bird; brain fart of the highest magnitude.

 As far as this Charlie Byrd album goes, the SQ was good and the man is talented but his arrangements make 1980s elevator music seem exciting. He's evidently a famous guitarist that managed to screw up While My Guitar Gently Weeps if that tells you anything.

 I mean seriously full of suck; after the above song (I gave it a chance, it was on side 2), I couldn't listen any further.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I knew that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


got you... and what you were thinking! I tried very hard to refrain from 



commenting.


----------



## dosley01

New toy to my Vinyl rig, a Rogue Audio Magnum 99 with Tube Phono preamp. 
   
  Such a huge improvement over my previous Rotel RC-1070/Jolida JD-9 combo.  It's really stunning. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Now to save up for one of their amps, the 99 dwarfs my Rotel RB-990BX amp.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





dosley01 said:


> New toy to my Vinyl rig, a Rogue Audio Magnum 99 with Tube Phono preamp.
> 
> Such a huge improvement over my previous Rotel RC-1070/Jolida JD-9 combo.  It's really stunning.
> 
> ...


 
  One friend owns the Atlas Magnum and Zeus and another the Atlas Magnum.  The Rogues sound great and my friends are very happy.  Congrats.


----------



## RamblinE

Quote: 





rique said:


> Thats a classic NAD table that has always intrigued me. More pics would be appreciated. Show us tha thick mat and
> the arm details. Hope you enjoy.


 
   
  Had lost my camera charger.


----------



## RIQUE

Wow awsome pics thanks. That is very unique technology. Shows that massive plates are not the only alternatives.


----------



## grokit

Show us the FLEX, please!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





rambline said:


> Had lost my camera charger.


 
  I did not want to beat you to posting pics of the NAD 5120 - thought there must be some camera related issue. Please make one more photo - main stamped metal platter from profile - its "rim" is no more than about 3- 4 mm high - about half the thickness/height of the spirit level in the left corner of the plinth.
   
  It is the Aichille's heel of this design - this platter can very easily become deformed, particularly if not shipped properly. This thin metal platter and massive rubber "mat/platter" combination is among the most acoustically dead designs, and certainly the most acoustically dead at the given mass. It is approx 1kg for the combo - the whole table weighs 5 kg.
   
  Here the best link in English I could find regarding its designer, the late Jiri Janda : 
   
 [size=12pt]http://genedeitchcredits.com/roll-the-credits/45-jiri-janda-two-ears-are-better-than-one/[/size]


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Show us the FLEX, please!


 
  Once upon a time, I did try to verify any claim made by the manufacturer. I still push the equipment to the absolute max - NEW, CURRENT equipment.
  Tesla/NAD arm is flexible - but the amount of flex required for normal operation is small and most probably unvisible to the naked eye. Flexing the arm as much as undoubtely for advertisement purposes such as in Audio magazine of the day
   
   http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?p=178414
   
  sure looks sexy - but other than that, serves no real purpose. After 30 - 18 years since the last 5120 has been produced, PCB material might have lost some of its qualities - and copper traces carrying audio signal might fracture, break or similar, rendering the arm useless. It might or might not fail, but for sure I would not unnecessarily risk it - operated within usual requirement, I have little doubt it will be still there after I am long gone. I know how fragile copper traces in vintage electronics PCBs can be and always try to stress them the least necessary.


----------



## analogsurviver

Collateral demage of my post above - http://nad-5120.blogspot.com/2012/10/blog-post_8.html 
   
  NAD 5120 was/is a benchmark/reference turntable in Hungary. It is perhaps country with most NAD 5120s still in operation. Just check the NAD 5120 videos on Youtube. I can not speak Hungarian save for few words and have to resort to online translation - with all its ills and quirks. You would probably be surprised, but Hungaroton label ( mostly classical stuff ) ranks among the highest quality pressings - ever. Only JVC Japan consistently turned out better product. So, finding a NAD 5120 with TWO motors  ( in place of a single spring that counters the belt tension from a single motor ) originating from Hungary is certainly no surprise to me.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Ha, thanks for posting that, looks interesting but I hereby withdraw my request for a current display of FLEX! I agree it does look cool though.
   
  As my SL1200 also has a rubber "mat/platter" combination, which some have described as overdamped, is this what you mean by acoustically dead? I am having excellent results with the res-o-mat, which seems to turn this attribute into a strength.
   
  The Denon won over the Grado btw, and I have lost interest in the 10x5. Wasn't even close. Now running a stock 103, will get my 103R re-tipped by Soundsmith with a ruby cantilever and a nude contact line diamond, which seems to be the tip profile that meets the most of my needs.
   
  The Grado will go up against an Ortofon 2M Red on my DP300F when I get around to it, that will be the elliptical table.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Ha, thanks for posting that, looks interesting but I hereby withdraw my request for a current display of FLEX! I agree it does look cool though.
> 
> As my SL1200 also has a rubber "mat/platter" combination, which some have described as overdamped, is this what you mean by acoustically dead? I am having excellent results with the res-o-mat, which seems to turn this attribute into a strength.
> 
> ...


 
  SL1200 with its platter insert and stock mat is ring-a-long-day compared to 5120 - if someone describes SL1200 as being overdamped, this is many times so. Content of rubber in SL1200 platter/mat is many times less than in 5120. Rubber "mat"of 5120 is heavier than stamped metal platter - or there about.
   
  Resomat is something I am definitely not fond of - but can understand why it could be beneficial with SL1200. It isolates the record from the platter as much as possible, relying on few literally point contacts to support the record. Much the same way as originally done by Transcriptors. SL1200 is a highly resonant structure overall and it may indeed be better to decouple record and any energy coming from the tracking stylus from the platter>bearing>base - at the price of record itself being allowed to resonate and not allowing the stylus to read true information engraved in the grooves. I know there will be strong oposition to such a statement from some - but here only a direct comparison to master tape or well made CD or SACD of the same music can give any real answer. All real good turntables did get this kind of right - one way or another, none did use next to zero support. One that did was Meitner turntable - but I never saw one in flesh, let alone heard it. NAD is one of the few that does this well in the lower price bracket.
   
  DL103 is a low compliance cart - in any version, specially R. Point record support is better suited to high compliance carts - so Resomat is ??? in this case.
   
  I do not want to sound patronizing, but please do read the review of Versa Dynamics turntable in Stereophile http://www.stereophile.com/content/versa-dynamics-20-lp-player-page-4  - once heard, or better yet, spent a weekend listening to this table, gives one pretty good idea what support record needs in order for the "record player" to (nearly) dissapear. It is unbelievable how much more low level signals a truly well coupled record to the platter can bring - it does no longer mean any significant ( other than VTA ) difference betwen regular and 180 + gram records - every record becomes a say 10000 gram record, the mass of the platter plus record itself. Funny thing - you might not like it - as it does sound unlike resonant decks, not being "alive" - but compare it to master tape , CD or SACD, and you will know which is closer to the original.
   
  Now, I definitely do not want to suggest that NAD is (nearly) equivalent of the Versa - look at the technologies involved, look at the price if you must - they can not be in the same league.  But it is much closer to that overall spirit than many much more costly decks.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> DL103 is a low compliance cart - in any version, specially R. Point record support is better suited to high compliance carts - so Resomat is ??? in this case.


 
   
  That's interesting, are you suggesting that the R may actually be a lesser performer than the regular 103 on my setup? If it is when I get it back, I suppose I will have to re-visit the mat thing...
   
  As I mentioned earlier, I am using the sandwich weight and the added weight on the back end of the tonearm with it; I seem to have had a breakthrough similar to the (admittedly somewhat confusing one) in this thread:
   
SL-1200 MK2 sounding open and musical at last
   
  Thee OP is using felt mats for decoupling from the rubber mat, and there seems to be a bit of consensus regarding the benefit of adding the extra mass to the arm/shell combo with the 103. Hopefully this added mass helps to balance out the negative effects you are referring to from decoupling the record with a low-compliance cart.


----------



## bbophead

Photos, for a change.  RP6/2M Black sitting on 25+ year old Target wall mount shelf.  Picked up the TT/cart last week.  Yippee!  Won't put the dust cover on until I get the Groovetracer counterweight in.  2M requires spacers and that's a P9 mat for further VTA fiddling.
   
   

   
   
   

   
   
   

   
  Thought I would mess with your minds with the 10" mono re-issue recorded in 1950.  Besides Brubeck, two others got famous, Paul Desmond and Cal Tjader (on drums!).  The white edge reflections are from the track lights above.  Loving this mid-fi set up with my NAD PP2i.
   
   

   
  Hope y'all enjoy!


----------



## Silent One

Whoa, bbophead! Your audio on display is better than Deep-fried Peaches & Cream @ The Texas State Fair!


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Whoa, bbophead! Your audio on display is better than Deep-fried Peaches & Cream @ The Texas State Fair!


 
  You ain't had nothin' till you've had my wife's homemade buttermilk biscuits, with your choice of sausage pepper gravy or homemade meyer lemon jam (lemons from our garden).  Spare the butter?  I don't THINK so.


----------



## OPR8R

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Photos, for a change.  RP6/2M Black sitting on 25+ year old Target wall mount shelf.  Picked up the TT/cart last week.  Yippee!  Won't put the dust cover on until I get the Groovetracer counterweight in.  2M requires spacers and that's a P9 mat for further VTA fiddling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Nice.  Seems like the 2M Black is pretty popular.  I've considered the Groovetracer counterweight too.  I may, one day, just order the subplatter, counterweight, and acrylic platter all in one shot.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> You ain't had nothin' till you've had my wife's homemade buttermilk biscuits, with your choice of sausage pepper gravy or homemade meyer lemon jam (lemons from our garden).  Spare the butter?  I don't THINK so.


 
  Biscuits and gravy or jam don't mix with turntables.
  Sponge bath required between feeding sessions!


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yeah, but it's so s-m-o-o-t-h ............


----------



## Silent One

Seems, on my way to NOLA, I might have to look y'all up!


----------



## MorbidToaster

bbophead said:


> You ain't had nothin' till you've had my wife's homemade buttermilk biscuits, with your choice of sausage pepper gravy or homemade meyer lemon jam (lemons from our garden).  Spare the butter?  I don't THINK so.




Those Brubeck albums are great. Did you get the DRI from RSD this year which is the Trio? I did a write up on them both here: http://baptisedinwax.tumblr.com/post/51837561459/jazz-double-header-today-dave-brubeck-is-one-of

As for food...do you ever make it to NIOSA?


----------



## MorbidToaster

Also, question for 103 fans...

Has anyone compared the Zu models to ~1k MC carts? I'm really considering their Grade 1 upgrade for my next cart and maybe the new Rega stage.


----------



## grokit

I'm pretty curious about the Zus, if I don't find the Soundsmith 103R a big improvement over the stock 103 I may look into those. I'm a bit concerned about the 103R after what AS mentioned regarding the compliance differences, and the even lower output level.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> DL103 is a low compliance cart - in any version, specially R.


 
   
  I've been trying to discern the difference in compliance between the 103 and the 103R, and they seem to be rated the same. Are you speaking of modified versions by any chance?


----------



## Destroysall

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Photos, for a change.  RP6/2M Black sitting on 25+ year old Target wall mount shelf.  Picked up the TT/cart last week.  Yippee!  Won't put the dust cover on until I get the Groovetracer counterweight in.  2M requires spacers and that's a P9 mat for further VTA fiddling.
> 
> Thought I would mess with your minds with the 10" mono re-issue recorded in 1950.  Besides Brubeck, two others got famous, Paul Desmond and Cal Tjader (on drums!).  The white edge reflections are from the track lights above.  Loving this mid-fi set up with my NAD PP2i.
> 
> Hope y'all enjoy!


 
  That is such a wonderful looking turntable.  Must sound just as gorgeous as well. 
   
  On another note,I had a question regarding entry-level turntables; which do you guys recommend, a Project Carbon Debut or a Rega RP1?  I know the Rega is a tad more, but it also has upgradable option (i.e. the upgrade kit or the Groovetracer products).  I'm aware of the used options, but I know there are many things to worry for when shopping used..


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





destroysall said:


> That is such a wonderful looking turntable.  Must sound just as gorgeous as well.
> 
> On another note,I had a question regarding entry-level turntables; which do you guys recommend, a Project Carbon Debut or a Rega RP1?  I know the Rega is a tad more, but it also has upgradable option (i.e. the upgrade kit or the Groovetracer products).  I'm aware of the used options, but I know there are many things to worry for when shopping used..


 
  I prefer the Rega (I just picked one up for my Dad) but the Pro-ject does come with a better cartridge. 
  I'd still select the Rega.


----------



## MorbidToaster

parbaked said:


> I prefer the Rega (I just picked one up for my Dad) but the Pro-ject does come with a better cartridge.
> I'd still select the Rega.




+1


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I've been trying to discern the difference in compliance between the 103 and the 103R, and they seem to be rated the same. Are you speaking of modified versions by any chance?


 
  Compliance rating is something that can vary rather wildly - sample to sample, batch to batch, with temperature, and can reach more than the nominal difference in official specs between two models. It is extreme PITA to measure directly - because of the resonance with the total mass usually at around 10 Hz. That is why dynamic compliance  (usually measured at 100 Hz) is used instead, Ever increasing VERY LOW levels at 100 Hz both in lateral and vertical mode are used on test records like CBS STR 100 - with extreme compliance carts ( 40x10-6 cm/dyne  and above ) , that means tracking level #1 well below 0.1 gram to get mistracking.  Arm bearing and wiring friction/torque get in the way at these extremely low VTFs , leading to inconsistent results. Measuring 10 Hz  resonance is an indirect method, chosen because it is much easier to do at normal VTF settings and gives because of this more consistent results. But you can expect 10 % variations in compliance sample to sample. Except in tour de force design$$$$$$$. If you find VTF spec of say 2 g +- 0.05 g - you can bet compliance has been meticulously adjusted. In more down to earth carts, only an average equal number of samples of say 103 and 103R can be compared to say which has more or less compliant suspension. Trouble is - only the one mounted on your arm is relevant to you,Back in the day, when cartridge review was accompanied by measurements, they always tried to have measured at least two samples of the same model; in theory, they ought to/should be indistinguishable - but in practice there were always differences. Sometimes embarassingly gross; clearly indicating defective sample. Usually WAY before compliance and its effect become important. Question: when have you last seen/read a subjective review of a cartridge involving two samples of the same model ?
   
  If you dig deeper, you may find vertical and horizontal compliances to differ for certain models; one known for this and still around is Decca cartridge and its various reincarnations. 
   
  It has been LONG since I heard regular 103, about 2 years since 103R. It behaved typical for low compliance cart - defined, focused up to its limits of tracking abilities, then there is a sharp break when things get too tough for it. Saving grace is that few records contain amplitude/modulation that high - but they ARE out there.
   
  I have never heard a Zu, but if and when a 103 of any description will find a way on my turntable, Zu stands the most chance. Forget the cartridge body - although anything above stock plastic must be an improvement, it is the selection and grading Zu does that makes it so appealing. My experience is you can only get a perfect - or GOOD ENOUGH example - of any given cartridge through measuring lots of production samples. It is also my experience almost no manufacturer can or wish to do that. Denon 103 has been in production for 50 years (!) - and consistency of their quality control is high, specially given the cost. I have seen far more crooked samples of 4 digit $ carts than worse samples of DL 103 I ran across. Zu buys a large portion of the total DL 103 production, measures them all, keeps those that meet the specs for its various grading - other lesser precision 103s get sold as regular Denon DL 103. Regarding the Zu gradings - do not go for the tightest/best spec unless you are running a linear tracking arm. I have no exact spec for the "breaks" Zu uses for its grading, but suspect it is something similar to what I assign a "T"( for Tangential ) suffix to ANY cartridge(stylus) - that is to say, its stylus/cantilever/generator/suspension is so precise that it is actually measurable - and tracking error of a pivoted arm is enough to negate any inherent superb precision of the cartridge. Yes, it CAN be heard - but you will have to adjust everything prior with test record(s) and at least an oscilloscope. Cartridges/styli so precise to actually expose tracking error of pivoted arms are far and between - Zu offers as perhaps the only "third party" this service at what I find very reasonable cost. Even its lowest grading is an insurance that you are not going to threaten an irreparable demage to all of your records due to stylus misalignment.
   
  Above is perhaps the reason why linear tracking arms have not displaced pivoted for good - ages ago. It is hard ( TBH - damn near impossible ) to consistently produce cartridge/styli at that zero tolerance precision. And I doubt the reviewers are fully aware of this fact. I have seen only one documented example of this, way back in late 70s, where IIRC German HiFiStereofonie measured one such perfect cartridge both in linear and pivoted arm(s). All those measurements were good, extremely good, far exceeding the manufacturer's specs. Yet on linear arm they were consistent no matter where on the LP surface was any given test track located, with pivoted it wandered around a bit. I second that from my own experience - but "T"s are unfortunately really far and between. A "regular within specs" cart may well have more deviation from perfection to effectively completely mask the advantages/differences linear arms offer over pivoted variety.
   
  You can flip the coin around and see why cartridge manufacturers tend to produce to quality level sufficient to allow good performance from pivoted arms and not beyond. $uch preci$ion i$ extremely co$tly. ( and I should have used Euro, British Pound and Yen signs for e. l and y in this sentence ).
   
  The spec that will be affected most  is channel separation and its symmetry. If the cartridge manufacturer specs its cart channel separation above 35 dB - THAT means there is extremely little room for error. Once you get used to say a 40 dB separation cart on linear arm - you will find lesser performance hard to swallow, especially on well recorded acoustic music not mangled by studio manipulations of any kind. Remember - 40 dB is 1% distortion ( not great, but acceptable ) , -20 db is 10% distortion - would you buy an amp spec'd at 10 % distortion ?
   
  Since this is post pic thread - NO, you do not want to see how stylus misalignments look either under microscope or as a final consequence on the oscilloscope screen. If for no other reason, I can applaud Zu for offering the possibility NOT to be pleagued by it by the usual gamble that is always lurking in the background when buying a cartridge. When did the dealer last offer you to inspect the cart/stylus under the microscope PRIOR to the purchase ? True, most audiophiles have no clue what to look for - which widely opens fishing in muddy waters. The last thing you want the needle is to be "sharp under the loupe". I will be posting pics of some good, but not 100.00 % perfect styli ( there is no such thing as perfection, specially not at these dimensions ) - you will be able to learn what to look for and which error(s) are acceptable and which are a definitive no go. 
   
  It is easy to get 5, 10 or more carts/styli before one really good - or barely good enough - surfaces; in that view, Zu pricing is perhaps the most reasonable thing to go for. Judge your ability/possibilities to adjust the cartridge - and select grading according to that. Bear in mind one very simple fact; yes there are better/faster/cleaner/etc carts out there; but that superiority is called for a small percentage of time; if it is not aligned as precisely as the Zu, it will spoil the performance - 100 % of the time. I always prefer "perfect" sample of the lesser performance cart over not so perfectly aligned supposed to be hot rod - it may well be "wow" initially, but in the long run it will prove to be unacceptable. Like a overly salted soup - no matter what perfect ingredients are in it.
   
  If you sift trough the specs, Grado and Clearaudio use(d to have) similar grading scheme - in colour or model., not given as percentage as with Zu. If you check Clearaudio, you will see what you pay for when going from one model to the next you mainly pay for any channel separation increase. That holds true within the same actual design with increasingly lower tolerances and increasing performance - not when the actual cart is different, say exchange from alloy to boron cantilever. That channel separation thing also allowed/prompted them to release their azimuth preamp/tool; it is a luxurious device for an average above average audiophile, allowing him/her to relatively conviniently achieve the correct azimuth adjustment - at a cost. 
  Same thing is achievable with an oscilloscope and more knowledge - with less elegance and for con$iderably le$$ $. With either, a GOOD test record is required. Please forget "eyeballing azimuth" - anything better than 35 dB is well within less than 1/3rd of a degree in azimuth angle - and is a challenge to make repeatable adjustmens so fine every time.
   
  The most consistent in quality of alignment in my experience were better Stanton/Pickering models - from the treasured PLAINVIEW, NY time/plant. They as per default stated channel separation as 35 dB - and if you aligned the azimuth to have perfectly symmetrical separation, exchanging the stylus for another for another ....for another ... brought differences less than half a dB either way ! Within tolerances for the best test records. But those guys really knew what they were doing, they had Scanning Electron Microscope in the house, they did grind their own diamond styli etc etc - I doubt (m)any manufacturer(s) has/have ever achieved the same kind of overall control over the production, let alone exceeded it. NOS Stanton/Pickering is naturally becoming ever more rare and expensive - but Plainview products are worth it. The price is not dictated by the by now rarity status alone.
  Never saw current Stanton production from Florida - from what is available on the web, they are not as good as back in the (g)olden days of Plainview.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I've been trying to discern the difference in compliance between the 103 and the 103R, and they seem to be rated the same. Are you speaking of modified versions by any chance?


 
  Compliance rating is something that can vary rather wildly - sample to sample, batch to batch, with temperature, and can reach more than the nominal difference in official specs between two models. It is extreme PITA to measure directly - because of the resonance with the total mass usually at around 10 Hz. That is why dynamic compliance  (usually measured at 100 Hz) is used instead, Ever increasing VERY LOW levels at 100 Hz both in lateral and vertical mode are used on test records like CBS STR 100 - with extreme compliance carts ( 40x10-6 cm/dyne  and above ) , that means tracking level #1 well below 0.1 gram to get mistracking.  Arm bearing and wiring friction/torque get in the way at these extremely low VTFs , leading to inconsistent results. Measuring 10 Hz  resonance is an indirect method, chosen because it is much easier to do at normal VTF settings and gives because of this more consistent results. But you can expect 10 % variations in compliance sample to sample. Except in tour de force design$$$$$$$. If you find VTF spec of say 2 g +- 0.05 g - you can bet compliance has been meticulously adjusted. In more down to earth carts, only an average equal number of samples of say 103 and 103R can be compared to say which has more or less compliant suspension. Trouble is - only the one mounted on your arm is relevant to you,Back in the day, when cartridge review was accompanied by measurements, they always tried to have measured at least two samples of the same model; in theory, they ought to/should be indistinguishable - but in practice there were always differences. Sometimes embarassingly gross; clearly indicating defective sample. Usually WAY before compliance and its effect become important. Question: when have you last seen/read a subjective review of a cartridge involving two samples of the same model ?
   
  If you dig deeper, you may find vertical and horizontal compliances to differ for certain models; one known for this and still around is Decca cartridge and its various reincarnations. 
   
  It has been LONG since I heard regular 103, about 2 years since 103R. It behaved typical for low compliance cart - defined, focused up to its limits of tracking abilities, then there is a sharp break when things get too tough for it. Saving grace is that few records contain amplitude/modulation that high - but they ARE out there.
   
  I have never heard a Zu, but if and when a 103 of any description will find a way on my turntable, Zu stands the most chance. Forget the cartridge body - although anything above stock plastic must be an improvement, it is the selection and grading Zu does that makes it so appealing. My experience is you can only get a perfect - or GOOD ENOUGH example - of any given cartridge through measuring lots of production samples. It is also my experience almost no manufacturer can or wish to do that. Denon 103 has been in production for 50 years (!) - and consistency of their quality control is high, specially given the cost. I have seen far more crooked samples of 4 digit $ carts than worse samples of DL 103 I ran across. Zu buys a large portion of the total DL 103 production, measures them all, keeps those that meet the specs for its various grading - other lesser precision 103s get sold as regular Denon DL 103. Regarding the Zu gradings - do not go for the tightest/best spec unless you are running a linear tracking arm. I have no exact spec for the "breaks" Zu uses for its grading, but suspect it is something similar to what I assign a "T"( for Tangential ) suffix to ANY cartridge(stylus) - that is to say, its stylus/cantilever/generator/suspension is so precise that it is actually measurable - and tracking error of a pivoted arm is enough to negate any inherent superb precision of the cartridge. Yes, it CAN be heard - but you will have to adjust everything prior with test record(s) and at least an oscilloscope. Cartridges/styli so precise to actually expose tracking error of pivoted arms are far and between - Zu offers as perhaps the only "third party" this service at what I find very reasonable cost. Even its lowest grading is an insurance that you are not going to threaten an irreparable demage to all of your records due to stylus misalignment.
   
  Above is perhaps the reason why linear tracking arms have not displaced pivoted for good - ages ago. It is hard ( TBH - damn near impossible ) to consistently produce cartridge/styli at that zero tolerance precision. And I doubt the reviewers are fully aware of this fact. I have seen only one documented example of this, way back in late 70s, where IIRC German HiFiStereofonie measured one such perfect cartridge both in linear and pivoted arm(s). All those measurements were good, extremely good, far exceeding the manufacturer's specs. Yet on linear arm they were consistent no matter where on the LP surface was any given test track located, with pivoted it wandered around a bit. I second that from my own experience - but "T"s are unfortunately really far and between. A "regular within specs" cart may well have more deviation from perfection to effectively completely mask the advantages/differences linear arms offer over pivoted variety.
   
  You can flip the coin around and see why cartridge manufacturers tend to produce to quality level sufficient to allow good performance from pivoted arms and not beyond. $uch preci$ion i$ extremely co$tly. ( and I should have used Euro, British Pound and Yen signs for e. l and y in this sentence ).
   
  The spec that will be affected most  is channel separation and its symmetry. If the cartridge manufacturer specs its cart channel separation above 35 dB - THAT means there is extremely little room for error. Once you get used to say a 40 dB separation cart on linear arm - you will find lesser performance hard to swallow, especially on well recorded acoustic music not mangled by studio manipulations of any kind. Remember - 40 dB is 1% distortion ( not great, but acceptable ) , -20 db is 10% distortion - would you buy an amp spec'd at 10 % distortion ?
   
  Since this is post pic thread - NO, you do not want to see how stylus misalignments look either under microscope or as a final consequence on the oscilloscope screen. If for no other reason, I can applaud Zu for offering the possibility NOT to be pleagued by it by the usual gamble that is always lurking in the background when buying a cartridge. When did the dealer last offer you to inspect the cart/stylus under the microscope PRIOR to the purchase ? True, most audiophiles have no clue what to look for - which widely opens fishing in muddy waters. The last thing you want the needle is to be "sharp under the loupe". I will be posting pics of some good, but not 100.00 % perfect styli ( there is no such thing as perfection, specially not at these dimensions ) - you will be able to learn what to look for and which error(s) are acceptable and which are a definitive no go. 
   
  It is easy to get 5, 10 or more carts/styli before one really good - or barely good enough - surfaces; in that view, Zu pricing is perhaps the most reasonable thing to go for. Judge your ability/possibilities to adjust the cartridge - and select grading according to that. Bear in mind one very simple fact; yes there are better/faster/cleaner/etc carts out there; but that superiority is called for a small percentage of time; if it is not aligned as precisely as the Zu, it will spoil the performance - 100 % of the time. I always prefer "perfect" sample of the lesser performance cart over not so perfectly aligned supposed to be hot rod - it may well be "wow" initially, but in the long run it will prove to be unacceptable. Like a overly salted soup - no matter what perfect ingredients are in it.
   
  If you sift trough the specs, Grado and Clearaudio use(d to have) similar grading scheme - in colour or model., not given as percentage as with Zu. If you check Clearaudio, you will see what you pay for when going from one model to the next you mainly pay for any channel separation increase. That holds true within the same actual design with increasingly lower tolerances and increasing performance - not when the actual cart is different, say exchange from alloy to boron cantilever. That channel separation thing also allowed/prompted them to release their azimuth preamp/tool; it is a luxurious device for an average above average audiophile, allowing him/her to relatively conviniently achieve the correct azimuth adjustment - at a cost. 
  Same thing is achievable with an oscilloscope and more knowledge - with less elegance and for con$iderably le$$ $. With either, a GOOD test record is required. Please forget "eyeballing azimuth" - anything better than 35 dB is well within less than 1/3rd of a degree in azimuth angle - and is a challenge to make repeatable adjustmens so fine every time.
   
  The most consistent in quality of alignment in my experience were better Stanton/Pickering models - from the treasured PLAINVIEW, NY time/plant. They as per default stated channel separation as 35 dB - and if you aligned the azimuth to have perfectly symmetrical separation, exchanging the stylus for another for another ....for another ... brought differences less than half a dB either way ! Within tolerances for the best test records. But those guys really knew what they were doing, they had Scanning Electron Microscope in the house, they did grind their own diamond styli etc etc - I doubt (m)any manufacturer(s) has/have ever achieved the same kind of overall control over the production, let alone exceeded it. NOS Stanton/Pickering is naturally becoming ever more rare and expensive - but Plainview products are worth it. The price is not dictated by the by now rarity status alone.
  Never saw current Stanton production from Florida - from what is available on the web, they are not as good as back in the (g)olden days of Plainview.


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## analogsurviver

Sorry - double post.


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## bbophead

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  You cracked me up with all the initials and such!  
   
  I vaguely remember the original trio album from the '50's.  BTW, it was not all that unusual to have red vinyl back in the day.  Fantasy did it quite often.  Too bad you really need a mono cartridge/stylus to get the benefit of the mono sound.  I don't have enough monos to justify the hassle.  
   
  What is RSD and what is a NIOSA?  Sorry, I'm just not that hip.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Here's one more pic to remind everybody about the title of this thread.


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## bbophead

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Sorry - double post.


 
  Hey analogsurviver, your knowledge of TT's is special.
   
  Anecdotally however, in the early 70's I recall that the V15 was a far better tracker than the 681EEE.  Your experience?


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## Skylab

Tracking was always one of the V15's strong suites.


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## RamblinE

Quote: 





destroysall said:


> That is such a wonderful looking turntable.  Must sound just as gorgeous as well.
> 
> On another note,I had a question regarding entry-level turntables; which do you guys recommend, a Project Carbon Debut or a Rega RP1?  I know the Rega is a tad more, but it also has upgradable option (i.e. the upgrade kit or the Groovetracer products).  I'm aware of the used options, but I know there are many things to worry for when shopping used..


 
  Try auditioning both. I've heard and liked the Rega however the Pro-Ject's arm is supposed to be much more advanced than anything in that price bracket. I'd have to hear both before I made the decision.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Hey analogsurviver, your knowledge of TT's is special.
> 
> Anecdotally however, in the early 70's I recall that the V15 was a far better tracker than the 681EEE.  Your experience?


 
  681EEE was never an outstanding tracker. Its strenght is linear respone and good separation. But later 881S/Pickering XSV3000 menaged to almost close the gap while retaining separation intact. 
   
  I only wonder where Ed Long got his V15VMR as tested in Audio magazine with Wheaton Triplanar MK? arm ( nearly 40 dB ) - I never came across one having more separation than 33 dB. Spec was 25 - or 27 , would have to check it out. BTW - Shure carts ADORE Eminent Technology ET2 arm.
   
  Compare that decline to today's M97xe - Shure was forced to correct the spec, as it is now below 18 dB ...
   
  There is one tracker not normally recognized as such - certain vintage Grados can track almost anything, amplitudes beyond 100 um, where an odd vintage Audio Technica MM might have also something to say. But they need an arm in which they are not allowed to perform the dreaded Grado dance.
   
  It would be unfair not to mention ADC and later Sonus carts - brainchild of late Mr. Pritchard. These extremely compliant designs can be temperamental to and above diva levels, having an absolute distaste for arms in which they do not belong - and that includes almost everything ever available. In those extraordinary designs that allow for such high compliance, they can be "lethal" - trouble is, they are getting ever rarer in NOS and later production switched to lower compliance. ADC XLM III stylus I have sports next to perfectly polished and mounted diamond - rarely does one see such stylus "porn", if you wish. Will post it in due time.


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## bbophead

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yeah, I had an early XLM in the '70s.  Tracked great at one gram in a Phillips 212.  I'm always wondering why I get rid of stuff.  The 2M Black does remind me a little bit of the V15, tho'.


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## MorbidToaster

bbophead said:


> You cracked me up with all the initials and such!
> 
> I vaguely remember the original trio album from the '50's.  BTW, it was not all that unusual to have red vinyl back in the day.  Fantasy did it quite often.  Too bad you really need a mono cartridge/stylus to get the benefit of the mono sound.  I don't have enough monos to justify the hassle.
> 
> ...




While that's true IIRC these were originally pressed on black. Though Discogs might be wrong.

Either way RSD is record store day. That Octet release is from RSD 2012 and the new Trio release was for RSD 2013. I have both.

NIOSA is Night in Old San Antonio. A big festival that happens every year in San Antone with lots of kick ass food.


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## bbophead

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  If my wife wasn't such a fab cook, I'd consider the two hour drive from La Grange, but I'd rather play vinyl AND eat well.  
   
  Thanks for the info.  I'll have to find out about how I can enjoy RSD.


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## calipilot227

Quote: 





rambline said:


> Try auditioning both. I've heard and liked the Rega however the Pro-Ject's arm is supposed to be much more advanced than anything in that price bracket. I'd have to hear both before I made the decision.


 
   
  +1 on auditioning, I did this and preferred the Rega by a long shot.
   
  But, even though it's made of flashy carbon fiber, the Pro-ject arm can't hold a candle to the venerable RB250 or its derivatives. There's a reason you see the RB250 mounted on tables costing 10 times its asking price.


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## Destroysall

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> +1 on auditioning, I did this and preferred the Rega by a long shot.
> 
> But, even though it's made of flashy carbon fiber, the Pro-ject arm can't hold a candle to the venerable RB250 or its derivatives. There's a reason you see the RB250 mounted on tables costing 10 times its asking price.


 

 I like the Rega as it seems it could last me quite a while due to how upgradeable it is.  I'm not sure how Groovetracer products are in terms of quality, but seeing as how you can upgrade the stock platter to their acrylic platter seems very inviting (in hope that an acrylic platter does actually benefit a turntable).  I have a local dealer who sells Rega products, so I could possibly venture in for a test run in the coming few days.


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## joe55ag

Hi,
  Just a quick shot of my rig - Project Xtension 12 (with 12 inch arm) in Olivewood finish w Sumiko Blackbird Cartridge.
  A very enjoyable setup.
  Joe


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## parbaked

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> +1 on auditioning, I did this and preferred the Rega by a long shot.
> 
> But, even though it's made of flashy carbon fiber, the Pro-ject arm can't hold a candle to the venerable RB250 or its derivatives. There's a reason you see the RB250 mounted on tables costing 10 times its asking price.


 
  The carbon is sexy as a material but on a budget arm it's really only replacing an otherwise metal tube. The issue is how it is bonded (glued) to the headshell and counterweight assembly.
  Nice thing about Rega arms is that they invested in forging equipment years ago so they can forge superior one piece (including headshell)  tonearms for a reasonable cost, compared to Project's hand assembled (glued together) tonearms.
  The RB101 on the RP1 is even more "one piece" than the RB250 or other higher end Raga arms in that the forging includes even the end stub and there is no longer need to upgrade plastic stub as on RB250.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





destroysall said:


> I like the Rega as it seems it could last me quite a while due to how upgradeable it is.  I'm not sure how Groovetracer products are in terms of quality, but seeing as how you can upgrade the stock platter to their acrylic platter seems very inviting (in hope that an acrylic platter does actually benefit a turntable).  I have a local dealer who sells Rega products, so I could possibly venture in for a test run in the coming few days.


 
  With the RP1 you no longer need to upgrade much! The later P1 and P2 had two cost saving components that "required" upgrading to bring the table to near P3 level:
  1) The HDF platter - it's actually high density fiberboard, not MDF and it's not as bad as reputed, but got slammed because it replaced the much loved glass platter on the P2.
  2) RB100 and RB250 have plastic, screw in, threaded end stub on which to mount the counterweight. Most upgrade this to at least a RB300 metal end stub.
   
  The RP1 addresses these two "weaknesses".
  1) The new platter is resin (like bakelite) and is likely equal/better than the original glass or aftermarket acrylic platters.
  2) The endstub on the new RP101 tonearm is forge as part of the arm and will not require upgrading although aftermarket counterweights will likely spring up.
   
  You can upgrade the subplatter, but the RP1 resin sub platter is same as used in RP3 so it's probably fine, really. You have to go up to the $1500 RP6 before Rega offer a metal subplatter.
   
  You DO need to upgrade the cartridge to get the best out of her! The included Ortofon OM5e is very good for what it is (price) but not up to the rest of this TT/tonearm.


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## OPR8R

Has anyone upgraded their RP6's platter?  I wonder if there's a consensus as to whether or not Groovetracer's acrylic or delrin platters are an actual improvement over Rega's glass "flywheel".  Even if it just not worse, the acrylic might be a good option for those looking for an aesthetic upgrade.


----------



## RamblinE

June issue of Stereophile has a very enlightening interview with Roy Gandy.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





joe55ag said:


> Hi,
> Just a quick shot of my rig - Project Xtension 12 (with 12 inch arm) in Olivewood finish w Sumiko Blackbird Cartridge.
> A very enjoyable setup.
> Joe


 
  Super nice looking.  Wood is beautiful as well as the platter.  Congrats!


----------



## Silent One

yes... very pleasing to one's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



eye.


----------



## Destroysall

parbaked said:


> With the RP1 you no longer need to upgrade much! The later P1 and P2 had two cost saving components that "required" upgrading to bring the table to near P3 level:
> 1) The HDF platter - it's actually high density fiberboard, not MDF and it's not as bad as reputed, but got slammed because it replaced the much loved glass platter on the P2.
> 2) RB100 and RB250 have plastic, screw in, threaded end stub on which to mount the counterweight. Most upgrade this to at least a RB300 metal end stub.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info, I hadn't the idea on how much the RP1 was of an upgrade compared to the old P1.



opr8r said:


> Has anyone upgraded their RP6's platter?  I wonder if there's a consensus as to whether or not Groovetracer's acrylic or delrin platters are an actual improvement over Rega's glass "flywheel".  Even if it just not worse, the acrylic might be a good option for those looking for an aesthetic upgrade.



I thought the acrylic platter would largely benefit it since they are also used in more expensive turntables.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





destroysall said:


> Thanks for the info, I hadn't the idea on how much the RP1 was of an upgrade compared to the old P1.
> I thought the acrylic platter would largely benefit it since they are also used in more expensive turntables.


 
  It's enough of an upgrade on the P1 that they didn't feel any need to replace the P2...


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





opr8r said:


> Has anyone upgraded their RP6's platter?  I wonder if there's a consensus as to whether or not Groovetracer's acrylic or delrin platters are an actual improvement over Rega's glass "flywheel".  Even if it just not worse, the acrylic might be a good option for those looking for an aesthetic upgrade.


 
  The RP6 glass platter is very sophisticated - made from two pieces of machined glass - very high tech.
  I would not replace it.


----------



## OPR8R

So Groovetracer's platters would not be an upgrade? I know the RP6 platter is an upgrade to the RP3 platter. Might be hard to compare because I think the Groovetracer upgrade for an RP6 also requires a subplatter upgrade.


----------



## analogsurviver

Now, imagine endless loop of Abba's  "Money, money, money, must be funny, in the rich mans's world...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETxmCCsMoD0 " playing softly in the background while drooling over pics in this thread for the entire duration of one's endulging in analog XXX-rated activities : 
   
http://www.audiosmile.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16819
   
  Colateral demage for searching info on a certain Technics TT ... - Google pictures search might deliver more than you wished for !  ( Despite NOT getting the info originally wanted ... )


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Now, imagine endless loop of Abba's  "Money, money, money, must be funny, in the rich mans's world...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETxmCCsMoD0 " playing softly in the background while drooling over pics in this thread for the entire duration of one's endulging in analog XXX-rated activities :
> 
> http://www.audiosmile.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16819
> ...


 
  Shows what pikers we are.  Interesting that there are no posts for the last three years.
   
  Since this IS a pic thread:  
   
   

   
  After I saw this pic, I carefully wiped the guh-nrr off the front.
   
   

   
  Look Ma, no info on the label.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Shows what pikers we are.  Interesting that there are no posts for the last three years.
> 
> Since this IS a pic thread:
> 
> ...


 
  One of the nicer counterweights for the Rega
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - what is it called ? 
   
  Did not realize at all there were no posts in the last three years in that thread - some TTs are hard to get pics of, like Gale from the UK. Never heard one, but did see it on static display during my only visit to London. It was a truckload of cash back in 1977 - and probably still is.
   
  Will try to find my  "Look Ma, no info on the label PLUS blank side/no grooves on Side B" demo LP. It doubles as the ultimate "antiskating" test disc for linear tracking arms that travel under their own steam, that is to say air bearing and solid bearing arms withot the assistance of servo motors; both act as the best spirit levels in existance and ideally there should be no tendency for a linear arm to skate in either direction. In practice, it is the torque of the cartridge output wiring that is creating the most trouble; dressing the cables so that they do not make any trouble worth mentioning IS a problem. Usual test discs provide blank portions / "bands", but the ill effects of the wiring in linear arms is most likely to cause troubles at the extreme outer and inner groove positions - where most test discs have some recording.
   
  Promise a pic when it resurfaces. No print on the neutral blank white cover, either.


----------



## bbophead

> > Look Ma, no info on the label.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Counterweight is a 130 gram Groovetracer.  I can close the lid now.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The record pic is of a test pressing from RTI, 1992, Ravel recording from 1977.  Had to write the table of contents on the blank white sleeve.  Really good sound.  I also have an RTI 12" 45 of Reiner/Chicago/Ravel, ten minutes long, other side is blank.  It looked like a good candidate for antiskate testing though I have never tried it.  The only linear trackers I have ever owned were B&O 4002 and 4004 in the way back and of course they were motored.  V8 I believe.


----------



## Silent One

bbophead, that's a great looking shot! I long for the day later this summer where I can actually pull out my gear and spin some.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Counterweight is a 130 gram Groovetracer.  I can close the lid now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Thanks for the answer. As Groovetracer is a US manufacturer and I am definitely not connoisseur of all things Rega related, the existance of aftermarket main bearings, subplatters, platters and counterweights actually capable of significantly improving on original Rega is new to me. One has to go to the upper models from Rega to get approximately equal quality. Price across the Pond unfortunately works to Groovetracer's disadvantage due to shipping, customs etc.
   
  Come to think of it, I should also have one RTI test pressing 45RPM with other side blank. Have to check it which one. Could also be used for "antiskating" ( for the lack of better term ) with linear arms. IIRC, it is also in neutral cover.
   
  I am curious how are you satisfied with Ortofon 2M Black; can it track RTI 45RPMs effortlessly or are there any congestions, particularly as far as treble is concerned? Should you have any comments how it does soundstage, depth etc compared to a GOOD MC ( at least the same price, preferably 2-5 times the price ) - I am all ears.
   
  PS: V8 remark in relation to next to no mass B & O cracked me up. Emoticons are FAR too limited/modest/shy here on head-fi to convey my LMAO in this case.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Thanks for the answer. As Groovetracer is a US manufacturer and I am definitely not connoisseur of all things Rega related, the existance of aftermarket main bearings, subplatters, platters and counterweights actually capable of significantly improving on original Rega is new to me. One has to go to the upper models from Rega to get approximately equal quality. Price across the Pond unfortunately works to Groovetracer's disadvantage due to shipping, customs etc.


 
  There are a number of good manufacturers of Rega upgrade parts in the UK e.g. Michell, IsoKinetic, Origin, SRM Tech etc. There are a lot of Rega modders in the UK. It's quite a cottage industry!
  In the US we have fewer options and unfortunately the Groovetracer components, while excellent, are costly in comparison.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





silent one said:


> bbophead, that's a great looking shot! I long for the day later this summer where I can actually pull out my gear and spin some.


 
  Thankee kindly.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Thanks for the answer. As Groovetracer is a US manufacturer and I am definitely not connoisseur of all things Rega related, the existance of aftermarket main bearings, subplatters, platters and counterweights actually capable of significantly improving on original Rega is new to me. One has to go to the upper models from Rega to get approximately equal quality. Price across the Pond unfortunately works to Groovetracer's disadvantage due to shipping, customs etc.
> 
> Come to think of it, I should also have one RTI test pressing 45RPM with other side blank. Have to check it which one. Could also be used for "antiskating" ( for the lack of better term ) with linear arms. IIRC, it is also in neutral cover.
> 
> ...


 
  I have lived with a Koetsu Onyx from the early '80's for the last ten years (bought used from a friend), tethered to a Jelco 250C on an original Oracle Delphi.  Back in the '80's, before the Koetsu, I had an Ortofon MC20 MKII (maybe it was a Super, don't remember) which I loved.  I'm a fan of MC's but the 2M Black has gotten a lot of good press so I jumped on it, lightly of course. :^)  It reminds me of another favorite of mine, the Shure Type 15 (I've had the II, IV and the V).  The 2M Black is totally different from the Koetsu as you might imagine.  I'm now up front and personal with the music and it's a really good tracker, really very lively but not too much so.  I haven't had a chance to try a lot of things with it but I just played a half speed mastered Columbia (I know there are detractors) of Boulez and NYPO doing the complete Firebird.  Wow!  Big picture with a lot of depth and dynamic range and not even a hint of tracking problems.  So, right now, I'm a fan.  I also did not notice any problems with the RTI 45 that I have.  The Koetsu may have been tired, I don't know, it still seemed to be in good shape, very warm and lush, had that Rolls Royce kind of presentation, if you will.  I'll stop with the car analogies right there.  Most of my experience with the Koetsu was with an Aesthetix Calypso line/phono stage, all tube, a really fine preamp and all the phono adjustments, and there were many, were available from the remote(!).  I've downsized now and believe it or not, use a NAD PP2i through a Jolida tube integrated.  I swear it sounds pretty damn good and I don't know why.  
   
  BTW, as I've stated before, I enjoy your postings and expertise, not that I understand all the ins and outs but keep it up.
   
  But, since this IS a pic thread, by god here's another:
   
   

   
  Obviously, this is before the Groovetracer counterweight.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Agree completely.  But, why not, UK is Rega's home base and it makes sense that there would be many modders there.  
   
  Initially, I bought a ClearAudio heavy counterweight for the RP6.  Guess what?  Didn't fit the RB303.  Frustrating, but Gene Rubin made it good so I moved on.


----------



## parbaked

You are a gentleman for always including a pic n your posts!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> There are a number of good manufacturers of Rega upgrade parts in the UK e.g. Michell, IsoKinetic, Origin, SRM Tech etc. There are a lot of Rega modders in the UK. It's quite a cottage industry!
> In the US we have fewer options and unfortunately the Groovetracer components, while excellent, are costly in comparison.


 
  I am aware of the UK "cottage industry". Yet Groovetracer somehow did impress me better. The way they go about precision machining their parts does not seem costly to me at all - such tolerances burn normally much bigger hole in one's pocket. It might be more money in absolute terms, but relative to the precision it can be considered a bargain. Their insistance to produce drop in replacement that can be substitued for inferiour original parts in minutes WITHOUT any other adjustments necessary struck me as very positive - as say audible difference due to change in say VTA due to different height of original and GT parts may well cause masking the difference in actual sonics if VTA was not precisely adjusted. Bearing in mind a typical Rega user, this was the only correct and pragmatic decision. How many Rega users adjust VTA with digital calipers - if they posess any kind of VTA adjustment in the first place ?


----------



## bbophead

>


 
   
   
  Quote: 





parbaked said:


> You are a gentleman for always including a pic n your posts!


 
  Thank you, it IS a pic thread after all.  I'll rest now, but, tell us what we're looking at, please.  I see it's a Benz.  A friend has a Benz on his highly modified Planar 3 and loves it.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Butting in without a picture, you need a hip dealer.  I have one in Audio Systems in Austin, TX.  Has the new spacers, does the homework even if he doesn't have the digital calipers, but it is a concern that he addresses, especially if you bring it up! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Yeah, Groovetracer appears to be a real machinist.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> I have lived with a Koetsu Onyx from the early '80's for the last ten years (bought used from a friend), tethered to a Jelco 250C on an original Oracle Delphi.  Back in the '80's, before the Koetsu, I had an Ortofon MC20 MKII (maybe it was a Super, don't remember) which I loved.  I'm a fan of MC's but the 2M Black has gotten a lot of good press so I jumped on it, lightly of course. :^)  It reminds me of another favorite of mine, the Shure Type 15 (I've had the II, IV and the V).  The 2M Black is totally different from the Koetsu as you might imagine.  I'm now up front and personal with the music and it's a really good tracker, really very lively but not too much so.  I haven't had a chance to try a lot of things with it but I just played a half speed mastered Columbia (I know there are detractors) of Boulez and NYPO doing the complete Firebird.  Wow!  Big picture with a lot of depth and dynamic range and not even a hint of tracking problems.  So, right now, I'm a fan.  I also did not notice any problems with the RTI 45 that I have.  The Koetsu may have been tired, I don't know, it still seemed to be in good shape, very warm and lush, had that Rolls Royce kind of presentation, if you will.  I'll stop with the car analogies right there.  Most of my experience with the Koetsu was with an Aesthetix Calypso line/phono stage, all tube, a really fine preamp and all the phono adjustments, and there were many, were available from the remote(!).  I've downsized now and believe it or not, use a NAD PP2i through a Jolida tube integrated.  I swear it sounds pretty damn good and I don't know why.
> 
> BTW, as I've stated before, I enjoy your postings and expertise, not that I understand all the ins and outs but keep it up.
> 
> ...


 
  Thank you for the extensive but somehow "diplomatic" answer. Believe me, I would not have bothered with Black if quite few people were not VERY enthusiastic about it. Since you refer mainly to classical music ( my premier cup of tea ), all the better - like Firebird & Co.
   
  Interesing enough, the only time I did really enjoy any Koetsu was my introduction to EAR preamp and 509 power amps. Or should I better say that it did not get in the way, too nice and lush for my taste in all other instances I had a chance to hear it. I used to have Orto MC 20 Super - many years ago, but can generally still remember its sound - so I can relate to what you are saying.
   
  Not surprised you find NAD phono good with MM - have heard some praises for it recently. From the people who were also coming from the far more costlier Hollow State Device phono stages.
   
  We can expand/refine after I post the phono cartridge loading/phono input impedance post.


----------



## Silent One

And I really like the DOF in this shot!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





silent one said:


> And I really like the DOF in this shot!


 
  And I really like to Google for abbreviations 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Thank you, it IS a pic thread after all.  I'll rest now, but, tell us what we're looking at, please.  I see it's a Benz.  A friend has a Benz on his highly modified Planar 3 and loves it.


 
  It's a 2005 P2 with a Benz Silver that I've had from new. The only modification are Mr. Lim aluminum feet (like P9) and a glass platter not pictured below.
  I am looking to replace the plastic end stub/painted counterweight but can't decide between just getting the RB300 steel/tungsten or aftermarket.
  Did you find a noticeable improvement when you changed to the Groovetracer?  I assume any improvement would be even more apparent on my RB250 given the plastic bits I'd replace.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





silent one said:


> And I really like the DOF in this shot!


 
  I need a macro and to stop drinking before I spin and shoot (but not before I just spin)


----------



## Silent One

Oh, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 sorry analogsurviver.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Welp, I'm not gonna' lie, too much.  My goal was to get the VTA within shouting distance of correct and be able to close the lid at the same time.  How's that for being a real audiophile?  Answer, I had the stock weight such a short time that I wasn't really that familiar with it's signature, if it even had one.  I ditched the P9 mat (hey, $35 down the toilet) and put the stock back on.  I "think" it sounds better but, heads up, I'm more of a leveler than a sharpener, if you know what I mean, and I think you do.  And, the "stop drinking" portion of your post was kind of scary.  It made me uncomfortable, 'cause that is not going to happen.
   
  The spacer bidnuss:


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Oh,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  No prob - expanding the horizons is always a good thing. The problem with abbreviations is that they sometimes "translate" ahmmm.... VERY weird if your first language is not English. Not in this case, though - I guessed it has something to do with depth.
   
  A primer according to the *MAD* magazine regarding acronyms - and what they really stand for:
   
*MCI     M*aking *C*ommunications *I*naudible
   
*CBS    *_*C*_ountless *B*ad *S*hows
   
  and many more - that was in Mad some quarter of a century ago...
   
  But loved wordless Spy vs Spy above it all - it was hilarious
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, in anyone's language!


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> But loved wordless Spy vs Spy above it all - it was hilarious
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  +1 (though we might be showing our age...)


----------



## Eee Pee

Very good.  Old school.


----------



## palmfish

I always looked forward to the accordian fold back cover picture.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> I always looked forward to the accordian fold back cover picture.


 
  I used to read Mad in the public library. Remember, this was Yugoslavia then. By the time I got to read it, "accordeon" was usually long gone ...


----------



## analogsurviver

Opus 3 Cantus Linear Tracking Arm w/Clearaudio Maestro Wood cartridge. 
   

  Cueing
   

  Kind of close up of the bearings riding in the glass tube with a slit - from this angle
   

  Kind of close up of the bearings from this angle In the background the AGI 511A preamp, with indespensable Transcriptors Stylus Scales atop of it.
   

  Cart and arm bearings. Test record on all photos CBS STR 112. TT Kuzma Stabi S for 2 arms ( the # 00000001, originally requested by the owner ), with second platter added minutes prior taking these pics during setup of the arm/cart.
   
  This is "Photoshoot of my new car during tuning in garage using phone camera", not "Imaculately polished new car by the tranquil lake, moments before sunset with infiniteless lenght legs female model;  taken by a professional photographer using Hasselblad" - some better pics hopefully after next visit and proper sonic audition at my friend's. It took some 6 hours to align/adjust it right.
   
  More about actual setting up on turntable setup thread in due time.


----------



## bbophead

Makes getting an Oracle "just right" seem like a piece of cake.  Awfully complicated to play a record but I've been simplifying lately.  I'm afraid you wouldn't make any money off me but I'm in awe of your work.  Hope all goes well.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Makes getting an Oracle "just right" seem like a piece of cake.  Awfully complicated to play a record but I've been simplifying lately.  I'm afraid you wouldn't make any money off me but I'm in awe of your work.  Hope all goes well.


 
  Not so sure. Cantus could be mounted on Oracle - light enough not to disrupt its stability too much. Add usual Oracle set up to get there.
   
  As regards Cantus - once set up, unless you are a total VTA freak, it  can be forgotten. Also very inituative to operate.
   
  I had very limited listening time with it so far ( strictly test music tracks , played say for a minute or two per track ) - but both myself and the owner clearly  recognized this is something entirely better, not just different. And he is a pro - first flutist in the symphonic orchestra. There is simply less intrusion of "foreign mechanical matter" with Cantus - and that does not include only pivoted arms, but most linear trackers as well.. 
   
  Designer of Cantus is now sadly late Bo Hansson - producer, recording engineer, designer of audio equipment and overall positive audio figure from Sweden. Some of you may know Opus 3 label - yes, he was the man behind it. He simply wanted a "record player" that would play records with closer 
  resemblance to master tapes - his own. He came up with Continuo turntable and Cantus arm - specially the later is something of genius. If you have any of the test records by Ortofon or Clearaudio with music on it - they are mainly from the Opus 3 catalogue. 
   
  I was shocked how free from resonances this deceptively frail looking lightweight construction is. Although I did not perform the full batery of tests due to lack of time, I did record both technical measurements as well as above mentioned limited musical listening to the Korg MR 1000 DSD recorder at its highest resolution. I was able to adjust the CA Wood Maestro cart with an absolute aplomb - this exact serial # proved to be a "T" or perfect cartridge. This combo is perhaps better off at the innermost grooves than most others are at the outside - so precise is its performance. I am really happy to report that CA Maestro Wood in Cantus performs like on railroad tracks - and cart itself is very quiet in the groove and retains full composure even with worn and abused records. It is capable of brushing aside noise and distortion lesser transducer would go berserk with - even with the most difficult and complex of passages, like finale of Mahler's second symphony. That ability alone is more than worth the admission fee. Lovers of classical and special vocal classical music should put Cantus on their short audition list - IF they are willing and capable of mounting/adjusting it by themselves or have a dealer or friend to whom they can trust to carry that for them.
   
  There will be better pics of this table in its natural habitat and not on the kitchen table; but you can clearly see the difference in size of Cantus vs normal 9" arm ( Kuzma Reference w/ Benz LP ( under the makeshift stylus guard my friend made from LEGO ( ! ) ) :
   

  This sample of Cantus has wiring in one piece from cartridge lugs to the output RCAs - and does not extend for more than approx 20 cm from the tonearm base. Reason? Requirement for the wiring to have the least capacitance possible - something some MM carts absolutely require to work well. Clearaudio range of MMs is definitely in this group, spec for the load is 100 pF - which is in practice VERY hard to achieve. Translated to human terms - like man 190 cm tall weighing 60 kg. Borderline possible, definitely not common. Wiring here has been reduced to an absolute still somehow useable minimum; I will measure the capacitance next time out of curiosity, as it can not be made any lower. Instead of 47 kohm resistive load I used 33 Kohm - better from both measurement and listening,
   
  If you remember, I suggested minimum capacitance achievable with 33Kohm resistance as load preferred by quite a few of the better Audio Technica MM carts. We have a saying: A wolf changes its fur, but never its nature. No wonder Maestro Wood behaves like that - it is OEM by Audio Technica for Clearaudio.


----------



## bbophead

Thanks for the update.  Must sound amazing.  So, the Clearaudio Maestro Wood is an MM?  Wow!  (and I don't mean that technically
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
   
  I was sorta kidding about the Oracle which is kind of a beast to get right no matter what arm is attached.
   
  What kind of money are we talking here and, what does the total system consist of?  Inquiring minds?
   
  I would love to see the finished product _in sitsu_.
   
  It must be very gratifying to work at this level and then get the really excellent results.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Should be ordering my Stabi soon. Only 1 arm though. Is that the 'heavy' kit for it? Defintely thinking about that later on, too.


----------



## Mambosenior

Well, seems like The NY Times just realized LPs are not dead: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/10/arts/music/vinyl-records-are-making-a-comeback.html?hp&_r=1&


----------



## RamblinE

Guise, look what's finally for sale! 
   
http://gettheorbit.com/
   
  Still have to wait a while to get one though, September according to them.


----------



## Silent One

Promising! Can't wait for the next chapter as well...


----------



## Destroysall

Quote: 





rambline said:


> Guise, look what's finally for sale!
> 
> http://gettheorbit.com/
> 
> Still have to wait a while to get one though, September according to them.


 

 I'm really considering this.  I mean, they seem pretty legit.


----------



## RamblinE

I would like to hear from real owners how it works first. 
   
  Maybe read a review in the audio press once they start coming out...


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Should be ordering my Stabi soon. Only 1 arm though. Is that the 'heavy' kit for it? Defintely thinking about that later on, too.


 
  It is addition of another platter ( if you disregard 2 arm option ) . Driven by the custom built transformer, after it proved to sound better than official power suplly.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Thanks for the update.  Must sound amazing.  So, the Clearaudio Maestro Wood is an MM?  Wow!  (and I don't mean that technically
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  No problem. It does. it is a DAMN GOOD MM.
   
  I agree on comment about Oracle. Stabi S is perhaps the ultimate in the opposite direction.
   
  I will limit myself here on the pricing of Cantus. At the moment, it is vague - kindly put. Why? After Mr. Bo Hansson passed away in 2011, production of its original manufacturer, Rauna of Sweden, ceased and remaining stocks were/are being sold (out?). Roughly speaking about thousand dollars. Back in the "current" days, it was less expensive still. The supply of Rauna made arms is dwindling fast and it is who gets there first, to whom the girl. Most likely still available from distributors around the globe, like Australia and US. Laws of supply and demand... Current production arm is slightly improved - but the pricing "improved" considerably indeed. Considering the performance ultimately achievable, I do not find it out of the line - but it IS steep. In this case, Google is your (not so good) friend - if you happen to know somebody who knows somebody capable of speaking Swedish who is also at least aware what turntable is will produce much better results. Time to perhaps dust off some ties from "your former life" with some *flicka *?
   
  Cantus is not a "finished product" - it is a kit. In the most positive meaning of the word imaginable. You have to glue its glass tube into the arm base - something my friend took care of prior me ever getting close to it. Originally intended/instructed for its base to be GLUED to the turntable. For Stabi S,  a custom "interface part" was machined and anodized to match with the overall design - no glueing required.
   
  I will take/post the pics of the entire system - if the owner agrees to that, next time I visit him and finally get to audition the thing properly after burn in.
   
  Yes, it was really gratiffying to get such excellent results - specially considering the relatively modest cost of this TT ( if you disregard Kuzma arm/Benz cart). There are tons of other equipment at MUCH higher prices that are not even in theory capable of this performance, let alone in practice.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





rambline said:


> I would like to hear from real owners how it works first.
> 
> Maybe read a review in the audio press once they start coming out...


 
  +1. Every now and then I check up the progress on their page - first deliveries are so to speak around the corner. I REALLY wish those guys to survive in the market; although I prefer going vintage at this price point, it is only an option if you do not mind doing some TLC - which might turn out into much more in the end. Plug and play TT for anything like this kind of money - curently the only game in town. If it lives up to the expectations AND it remains competitive once at regular price when pitted against Regas and Projects. AND if it can repeat pulling  this feat - across the Pond. Regas and Projects have to swim and meet customs prior you can see them in the US - which all costs a great percentage of total at this price level. Regas and Projects have distributors and so shipping can be much less expensive per single TT. Orbit will, if they decide  to go globaly by adding 230 V 50 Hz option, most likely deal with the end user directly - go to the USPS and see how much does it cost to ship to Europe say 6 kg package of the appropriate size when packed. Still, I wish them all the best.


----------



## mahchefai

deniall83 said:


> Pro-Ject Debut Carbon, Furutech ADL GT40, Sennheiser HD650.




Hey, I realize this is pretty old, but I'm thinking of getting the same setup. Do you find that the GT40 is able to properly drive the HD650s, or would I be better off getting a separate amp?


----------



## Eee Pee

So, few weeks ago VPI puts out another Scout, the Special Edition with the old HW-19 upgraded platter, a delrin and lead combination.  So happens I have an old HW-19 with that platter doing nothing.  And a Traveler.  The platter wasn't a drop in deal, but I took the entire assembly out of the HW-19, and swapped it onto the Traveler.  Complete luck that it worked because it's diameter is much smaller and the screws are drilled exactly in a position that they locate the 19's bearing dead center.  The weight keeps it in place.  Hybridized Traveler!  Little VTA adjust and it's good to go!


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> So, few weeks ago VPI puts out another Scout, the Special Edition with the old HW-19 upgraded platter, a delrin and lead combination.  So happens I have an old HW-19 with that platter doing nothing.  And a Traveler.  The platter wasn't a drop in deal, but I took the entire assembly out of the HW-19, and swapped it onto the Traveler.  Complete luck that it worked because it's diameter is much smaller and the screws are drilled exactly in a position that they locate the 19's bearing dead center.  The weight keeps it in place.  Hybridized Traveler!  Little VTA adjust and it's good to go!


 
  Sweet Eee Pee! Nice that VPI makes there gear so interchangeable.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> So, few weeks ago VPI puts out another Scout, the Special Edition with the old HW-19 upgraded platter, a delrin and lead combination.  So happens I have an old HW-19 with that platter doing nothing.  And a Traveler.  The platter wasn't a drop in deal, but I took the entire assembly out of the HW-19, and swapped it onto the Traveler.  Complete luck that it worked because it's diameter is much smaller and the screws are drilled exactly in a position that they locate the 19's bearing dead center.  The weight keeps it in place.  Hybridized Traveler!  Little VTA adjust and it's good to go!


 
  Nothin' to it for a smarter bear.  Congrats!


----------



## Eee Pee

Word!  Though technically these things weren't quite interchangeable. 
   
  Here's the HW-19 bearing holder thing located dead center due to the Traveler's bearing holder screws being in the exactly perfect spot.  Lucky, or what?  I was thinking of getting out my drill until I eyeballed it all.  "wow, that's gotta be close!  Wow that fits PERFECTLY!"
   
   

   
   
  Time to spin some records!


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Word!  Though technically these things weren't quite interchangeable.
> 
> Here's the HW-19 bearing holder thing located dead center due to the Traveler's bearing holder screws being in the exactly perfect spot.  Lucky, or what?  I was thinking of getting out my drill until I eyeballed it all.  "wow, that's gotta be close!  Wow that fits PERFECTLY!"
> 
> ...


 
  Mat Weisfeld likes your mod....I posted the link to him of your pics...


----------



## Eee Pee

Oh nice!  Where at?


----------



## TheWuss

last night i installed the brand new VPI JMW 3D tonearm.
_so_ worth it.
   
  i wish i could tell you guys that it's a simple drop-in replacement, but it's pretty far from that...
  it took the better part of the evening to get it installed and dialed in.
   
  everything about the arm is different.  it's a fraction of the mass, has a different bearing mechanism and bearing height.
  so the VTA has to be set again.  and the azimuth is incredibly sensitive.
  the arm can easily be induced to see-sawing if the counterweight is even one degree off from the azimuth that the cartridge wishes to track at...
   
  once dialed in, it's simply outstanding though...  
  the blackest background i have heard from analog.  and the most natural dynamics imaginable...


----------



## penmarker

You got me so jealous that you might as well call me Bruce Banner.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Those new 3D printed tonearms are really cool!


----------



## Eee Pee

Oh my.  
   
  Ohhhh my.  Wow.  Congrats!
   
  Sidenote: Up til 0400 last night enjoying my new platter swap.  Record clamps - essential.  Even if I hear no difference in sound due to different materials, there is so much peace of mind because of that simple little clamp.  Happy.


----------



## grokit

Really cool Wuss


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> last night i installed the brand new VPI JMW 3D tonearm.
> _so_ worth it.
> 
> i wish i could tell you guys that it's a simple drop-in replacement, but it's pretty far from that...
> ...


 
  Congrats. I have expected improvements in sound of 3D printed vs conventional arm to be in much reduced resonances/reflections, resulting in good background and dynamics. I would appreciate an update on sonic impressions after the initial "wow" subdues.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Congrats. I have expected improvements in sound of 3D printed vs conventional arm to be in much reduced resonances/reflections, resulting in good background and dynamics. I would appreciate an update on sonic impressions after the initial "wow" subdues.


 
  We have a small 3D printer at work - used for models. It is amazing technology and the VPI tonearm is really pushing the limits!
  Very impressive.


----------



## parbaked

Finally got a macro lens.
  Benz Micro Silver on a Rega RB250


----------



## Hi-Five

Quote: 





rambline said:


> Had lost my camera charger.


 
   
  Since it wasn't too long ago in the thread, I had to post this when I just stumbled across it.  Maybe someone already brought it up and i missed it, but it was new to me.  Their page has a few nicer pics for those interested.
   
  http://www.euroaudioteam.com/en/eat-e-flat-turntable-000046.html
   

   
   
  Anyone else want one too?
   
  Happy Spinning!
   
  Hi-Five


----------



## Hi-Five

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> We have a small 3D printer at work - used for models. It is amazing technology and the VPI tonearm is really pushing the limits!
> Very impressive.


 
   
  I work with a little bit of PolyJet and FDM printing but from what I've seen both are prone to creep and eventual warping.  They must have some pretty fancy compounds at work in that new arm!
   
  I just watched a video earlier where they were 3D printing liquid metal at room temp on the micro-scale.  It turns out the oxide film that develops is forceful enough to hold the body's shape.  Crazy stuff!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





hi-five said:


> Since it wasn't too long ago in the thread, I had to post this when I just stumbled across it.  Maybe someone already brought it up and i missed it, but it was new to me.  Their page has a few nicer pics for those interested.
> 
> http://www.euroaudioteam.com/en/eat-e-flat-turntable-000046.html
> 
> ...


 
  Both NAD 5120 aka Tesla NC 470 and EAT made in the same factory that now produces Pro-Ject and Music Hall TTs. 
   
  The new reincarnation of the flat arm uses unipivot bearing, is made out of carbon fibre ( both plus ) - and drops the most important feature of the old, the adjustable antiresonator counterweight - LARGE minus. The execution is far better than on 5120 - but so is the price. I would like to hear it (set up with the same cart) side by side to its 30 years old predecessor.


----------



## Jesterphile




----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


>


 
  Nice, although it doesn't look a bit like the TT in your profile.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  This Rega looks tricked out. Whatcha got there?


----------



## RamblinE

Quote: 





hi-five said:


> Since it wasn't too long ago in the thread, I had to post this when I just stumbled across it.  Maybe someone already brought it up and i missed it, but it was new to me.  Their page has a few nicer pics for those interested.
> 
> http://www.euroaudioteam.com/en/eat-e-flat-turntable-000046.html
> 
> ...


 
  WHOA. That thing is incredi-cool!


----------



## Jesterphile

bbophead said:


> Nice, although it doesn't look a bit like the TT in your profile.   This Rega looks tricked out. Whatcha got there?




Mmm this is a, new to me, original Planar 3 with an R200 tone arm.

I'm currently looking at putting double belts and a modified RB250/300 on it


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Very clever indeed.  Cartridge?  Inspiring minds, you know.


----------



## Jesterphile

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Very clever indeed.  Cartridge?  Inspiring minds, you know.


 
  Garrott modded Dynavector 20B, I'm still unsure if the Garrott mods entail other than re-tipping as I got it with the turntable.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I'll bet that's gonna be a real nice sound.  Congratulations!


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> Mmm this is a, new to me, original Planar 3 with an R200 tone arm.
> 
> I'm currently looking at putting double belts and a modified RB250/300 on it


 
  How does that old boy compare to your RP6?
  The RB200 is pretty cool to replace...


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Wow!  He also has an RP6, like ME?


----------



## basman

Got this upgraded scout!


----------



## Silent One

What a happy looking corner! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Congrats!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> Garrott modded Dynavector 20B, I'm still unsure if the Garrott mods entail other than re-tipping as I got it with the turntable.


 
  Is this Dynavector 20B "a" Garrott (present operation) - or THE Garrott (by the late twins)? By the timeline ( 20B, RB200 ) it stands a fair chance of being the real thing. Close up of the cart/stylus, please !


----------



## Jesterphile

analogsurviver said:


> Is this Dynavector 20B "a" Garrott (present operation) - or THE Garrott (by the late twins)? By the timeline ( 20B, RB200 ) it stands a fair chance of being the real thing. Close up of the cart/stylus, please !




http://i.imgur.com/d7v3vUS.jpg

Does this help? Its an old cartridge. It'd be good if you could shed some light on the Garrott business as I have no idea


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





basman said:


> Got this upgraded scout!


 
  Beautifully warm looking.  I approve of the cans, too.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Annalogsurviver:  I sort of remember the twins killed themselves.  It seems they did a lot of Decca overhauls maybe?


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Annalogsurviver:  I sort of remember the twins killed themselves.  It seems they did a lot of Decca overhauls maybe?


 
  Yes, the story of Garrott Brothers is one of the most intriguing in all of audio. It is perhaps the best to read first
   
http://www.avguide.com/forums/remembering-the-garrott-brothers
   
  It is also a story from which lineage of stylus retippers can be at least partially assembled. There is quite some info scattered on Pink Fish Media, as the Garrott Brothers have been at some point "apprentices" at Expert Stylus in the UK. Stylus/cartridge people, at least the ones I do know, are very proud of their achievements and generally think more than twice before passing their hard way earned experience to other people. As this was going on in the mid 70's, we may never know the whole truth, as at least Garrott Brothers can no longer tell their part of the story. 
   
  Be as it may, Garrott Brothers was the first firm I heard of to do retipping service - late 70, my late teens. I somehow did scrape together the money for Supex SD 900 Super MC cartridge from then the least expensive source, which was Hagen Olesen from Denmark. OK, that price was far more user friendly than Linn's from UK, but about 2-3 times I paid for my Supex just to retip it was beyond my means. Trouble is, in Yugoslav  HI FI "press" of the time,  Garrott Brothers retipped cartridges were hailed as the non plus ultra - no other cartridges were held in such high esteem, very first Koetsus included. Late 70s were the beginning of van Den Hul stylus, at first available on modded EMT cartridges, and priced at IIRC $ 900 - way above my student budget. I knew of no one that had a VdH until well into 80s, when this stylus became available on less expensive carts. But there were a handful of Garrott Brothers rettips floating around - enough to spread the word. It might come as a surprise to you, but we knew bloody well what was good/best - and were willing to save for what we believed in and to take the plunge given the chance. Taking a trip to a place 500 or so odd kilometres away just to hear one's object of desire was not that uncommon thing at all...
   
  A couple of years ago, 2 or three, I scored for a friend an (ab?)used Micro Acoustics 100e cartridge on ebay from Australia. This is an entry model in the System II line of Micro Acoustics electret cartridges, the most basic and therefore the least desirable. But, with an all important twist - it sports Garrott Brothers Micro Scanner label, denoting best stylus tip by Garrott Brothers. Micro Scanner was to my knowledge the first commercially available (late 70s) stylus that later on became known as Micro Line, Micro Ridge and recently SAS - the first cartridge by a major manufacturer sporting Micro Line was Audio Technica's premium range Signet, model was TK10ML, in 1981.
   
  Garrott Brothers cartridge, the one by the late twins, that you are most likely to come across is Decca of some sort or another. They did practically everything ( another friend menaged to score Stanton 681EEE with Micro Scanner ), but retipped Decca is perhaps their most known and "widespread" product. Although they were not keen on MCs, having produced their own version of A&R Cambridge P77 MM cartridge called K1 through K3, with ever more sophisticated cantilever/stylus as you went up the line, and cosidered this "Dynamic Coil" superiour to the MCs, they did process lots of MCs and results were always beter than the original. They were the ultimate perfectionists - with now their work mostly "available" as photo of a cart sporting their label, their painstaking work and precision achieved in mounting the styli is something that is slowly sinking into oblivion. Sooner or later, any stylus gets worn with use, and not many after the last made by the late twins more than two decades ago remain intact enough to this day.
   
  In next post, I will publish the microscope photos of the Real McCoy - as far as I can tell, there is no photos of Garrott Brothers Micro Scanner stylus
  available anywhere. The degree of craftsmanship may have been matched by now, but it can not be bettered - they did it as close to perfection as it can possibly get.


----------



## analogsurviver

So here it is - Micro Acoustics 100e fitted by Garrott Brothers with Micro Scanner stylus. The cantilever was sligtly bent and there is a kink - waaaay prior this sample ever reached me.
   
  Micro Acoustics cartridges have all one characteristic in common - VERY long cantilever. Its longivity is unfortunately inversely proportional to its lenght, as some of you old enough to come in touch with them can testify. 
   

   
  This is the only way to catch the loooooong cantilever in its entire lenght at 20x, the smallest magnification. It is clear some funny business had to be going on sometime in its history before getting here.
   

  Close-up on the diamond 
   

   
  That dark "off centre" circle is the hole in the cantilever occupied once by the far bigger original elliptical stylus - here filled with mounting cement. This is the cleanest job I have seen to date, using the least cement/glue that will reliably hold the diamond in place. Please note that orientation of the stylus is ALWAYS aligned so to be in the correct spot, deficieces of cantilever corrected for by the alignment of the diamond itself.
   
   

  Here Micro Scanner ridges are clearly visible. Stylus is mounted at EXACTLY 90 degrees to the cantilever's real center line.

  A bit different lighting showing one (lighter) facet well
   

  Cantilever/stylus responsible for the right channel
   

  Micro Scanner ridge clearly visible
   

  Note the minuscule amount of glue/cement


----------



## Eee Pee

Impressive.  Both it, and your ability to get those photos.


----------



## analogsurviver

Micro Acoustics 100e fitted by Garrot Brothers with Micro Scanner stylus  Part 2
   
   

  Cantilever/stylus responsible for left channel; please note slight kink in the cantilever
   

  Minimum glue/cement from this angle
   

  Micro Scanner ridge clearly visible
   

   Azimuth view - you will see how careful the twin Garrott brothers were in fitting the diamond to the imperfect cantilever.
   

   
  Note the correct azimuth alignment on the true centerline through the cantilever. I chose the shot that has the stylus focused but still gives a depth of field along the bulk of the cantilever tube.
   

   
  Here facets of the Micro Scanner polishing (along with slight imperfections ) are clearly visible.
   
   

   
  Different lighting highlights the contours of the large scanning radius of the Micro Scanner stylus.
   
   
  Yes, that was how the Garrott Brothers did their work.
   
  Let them R.I.P.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> http://i.imgur.com/d7v3vUS.jpg
> 
> Does this help? Its an old cartridge. It'd be good if you could shed some light on the Garrott business as I have no idea


 
  Yes, it does help. Thank you very much for this photo.
   
  I have not seen such Garrott label before - I am familiar only with Micro Scanner version. They may have used lesser stylus tip profiles earlier on. 
  Micro Scanner ( Ridge, Reach, Line, SAS are its other commercial names ) does, besides the closest possible approach to cutting stylus without introducing re-cutting, offer much increased stylus life prior to threatening record demage than any other available option. 
   
  Even if your 20A Garrott is the older non Micro Scanner version, you can rest assured its stylus is aligned properly. Hope it is not (too) worn by now.
  In any case, it is a legacy and rare piece of audio history. Please treat it accordingly.


----------



## Jesterphile

analogsurviver said:


> Yes, it does help. Thank you very much for this photo.
> 
> I have not seen such Garrott label before - I am familiar only with Micro Scanner version. They may have used lesser stylus tip profiles earlier on.
> Micro Scanner ( Ridge, Reach, Line, SAS are its other commercial names ) does, besides the closest possible approach to cutting stylus without introducing re-cutting, offer much increased stylus life prior to threatening record demage than any other available option.
> ...




The tip is in good nick as far as I'm aware. I don't have anything that will allow me to inspect it either..

Oh well. It sounds good, that's the main thing 

::EDIT::

Whelp, shouldn't have said anything because it looks like the needle just broke of and let the stylus rake across my copy of DSoTM


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> The tip is in good nick as far as I'm aware. I don't have anything that will allow me to inspect it either..
> 
> Oh well. It sounds good, that's the main thing
> 
> ...


 





 I hope the "new" Garrott can repair for you!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> The tip is in good nick as far as I'm aware. I don't have anything that will allow me to inspect it either..
> 
> Oh well. It sounds good, that's the main thing
> 
> ...


 
  Really sorry to hear that. 
   
  How did it happen? Any prior "mishaps" or just "out of the blue"? If it was the latter, double check that the arm and particularly its antiskating  is functioning properly, It can happen that arm is "sticking" at one point, antiskating springs can get weakened with age, etc. RB200 is  high quality enough this to be unlikely, but it is a possibility.


----------



## Jesterphile

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Really sorry to hear that.
> 
> How did it happen? Any prior "mishaps" or just "out of the blue"? If it was the latter, double check that the arm and particularly its antiskating  is functioning properly, It can happen that arm is "sticking" at one point, antiskating springs can get weakened with age, etc. RB200 is  high quality enough this to be unlikely, but it is a possibility.


 
  I think it may have just been getting too old and the cement used to mate the needle to the stylus let go, was playing a record and then suddenly RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRPT
   
  Anti skate seems to be working although it can't be changed easily as the belt is broken. There's a few fixes around for that but I'm using it as an excuse to change the tonearm to an RB250 
   
  Incidentally... If anyone wants to buy an R200 tonearm...


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Impressive.  Both it, and your ability to get those photos.


 
  I agree for the stylus.
   
  By now I did learn how to get even better pics using the same USB microscope. I will post the photos of worn out styli, both those made on scanning electron microscope and my attempts to get positive proof that a stylus is definitely past the point of safe use with USB microscope. It drove me nuts that I could hear that jarring distortions of a worn out stylus and confirm it using test record and an oscilloscope, yet on optical microscopes at my disposal there was no visibly positive confirmation the stylus has deteriorated beyond safe limit.
   
  With optical microscope, it is very much the lighting. Colours can vary wildly either to cantilever material, geometry/polish/translucency of the diamond, as well as angle(s) of the lighting. Getting the lighting to highlight any particular spot on the diamond stylus itself is tricky, but is the only way to show features that are in real life 3D in for all practical purposes 2D realm of USB microscope. Focus is extremely limited - something on the order of 10 - 20 micrometers at the highest 320x magnification of my microscope, everything outside that range is blurred to less or more extent.
   
  Any such photos are prone to "oopses" - particularly those last bids to get an even sharper image. Due to the rarity of Garrott Brothers Micro Scanner, I will not make another photo session in order to take advantage of the last lighting skills learned.
   
  @everybody: please take time to read carefully the Garrott Brothers Remembered link. Highest quality perfectly aligned stylus was only the starting point for Garrott. Exactly what other secret measures to improve everything else were used may never be known, but a proper functioning Garrott Brothers cartridge certainly is something that is extremely unlikely to dissapoint.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> I think it may have just been getting too old and the cement used to mate the needle to the stylus let go, was playing a record and then suddenly RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRPT
> 
> Anti skate seems to be working although it can't be changed easily as the belt is broken. There's a few fixes around for that but I'm using it as an excuse to change the tonearm to an RB250
> 
> Incidentally... If anyone wants to buy an R200 tonearm...


 
  Yes, cement can let go like this, given the age.
   
  I forgot how RB200 implements antiskating, all I knew it was somewhat different from the usual.
  If the broken belt is making it hard to change the setting, it may well be that antiskating was set too high or too low for this particular setting and it could have accelerated the stylus failure.
   
  RB250 is a MUCH better arm.


----------



## Jesterphile

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Yes, cement can let go like this, given the age.
> 
> I forgot how RB200 implements antiskating, all I knew it was somewhat different from the usual.
> If the broken belt is making it hard to change the setting, it may well be that antiskating was set too high or too low for this particular setting and it could have accelerated the stylus failure.
> ...


 
   
  I've found an RB250 w/ underslung counterweight and VAF adjustment and also an RB300 w/ Incognito Wiring upgrade... I'm leaning towards the RB300 what do you reckon?


----------



## calipilot227

I think the RB250 with the upgrades will outperform the stock RB300. Then again, I haven't heard the Incognito rewired RB300, for what it's worth.


----------



## Jesterphile

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> I think the RB250 with the upgrades will outperform the stock RB300. Then again, I haven't heard the Incognito rewired RB300, for what it's worth.


 
  I was more thinking along the lines of wiring upgrade is more expensive than the counterweight so if I got the RB300 and a new counterweight I may be better off. I've also heard the RB300 is easier to mod?


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> I've found an RB250 w/ underslung counterweight and VAF adjustment and also an RB300 w/ Incognito Wiring upgrade... I'm leaning towards the RB300 what do you reckon?


 
  I have very limited experience with Rega. And I think wiring in tonearms is WAY overrated. I have seen many arms made actually worse after the owner insisted on wire change - only to learn the hard way some arms just can not be rebuilt to the original high standard as far as bearing adjustment is concerned. If the tonearm does not perform mechanically well in the first place, the point of better wiring is moot, to stay polite about it. Lots of such "upgraded" arms end up for sale ...
   
  Underslung counterweight is a definite plus, as is VTA on the fly, if that is what you meant with VAF. Bearings should be on paper the difference between 250 and 300, how much it does matter in practice and the exact sample you will get is hard/impossible to predict. I have not heard 300/Ingognito and can not comment how it sounds compared to regular 300.
   
  One thing - if you are going to repair the 20B, is that not a "headshell" type cartridge, or that is normal 1/2 " mount cart plugged into proprietary Dynavector adapter to IEC socket ? You can not use "headshell IEC" type cartridge with Rega 250/higher at all.


----------



## Jesterphile

If I can get the dynavector repaired I will be putting it on my JVC TT so the headshell issue doesn't matter 

I think I'll go for the RB250. You made a good point regarding ruining the mechanical function when DIYing the cable swap and seeing as I can't inspect the arm Id prefer not to take the chance.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> If I can get the dynavector repaired I will be putting it on my JVC TT so the headshell issue doesn't matter
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Wise decision(s).
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  We have a saying: Better a sparrow in hand than a pidgeon on the roof.
   
  How does your JVC compare to REGA ? I am learning some better JVCs must have been formidable machines, and not only TOTL never exported outside Japan models. Never worked with any JVC so far, any listening done under unknown conditions decades ago, so I am curious...


----------



## Jesterphile

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Wise decision(s).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  The old JVC's are great. I have a QL-Y3F which is similar to a Denon DL-47F.
   
  I would say the QL-Y3F is in a different league compared to the Rega


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> The old JVC's are great. I have a QL-Y3F which is similar to a Denon DL-47F.
> 
> I would say the QL-Y3F is in a different league compared to the Rega


 
  It does seem  the name of the game is finding good Japanese vintage gear made well with lots of innovation old enough to escape the dreaded black placic box syndrome of the mid 80s. And JVCs that roughly fit this description are obviously much more easily found in outback of Oz than in Europe - very rarely does one see even mid, let alone better JVC TTs for sale in Europe. Black Plastic Box galore...
   
  Astonishingly, there is today one QL-Y3F on French ebay - for some reason, France seems to be the JVC fort in Europe. If it has to cross oceans, the resulting end price is usually too high.
   
  So - how would you compare the sound of your Rega and JVC, what argument in sound would you use to convience a Rega fanboy to at least audition a good JVC? Please note that I do not want to start yet another belt vs direct drive war or anything, just interested in your long term experience with both.


----------



## Jesterphile

analogsurviver said:


> It does seem  the name of the game is finding good Japanese vintage gear made well with lots of innovation old enough to escape the dreaded black placic box syndrome of the mid 80s. And JVCs that roughly fit this description are obviously much more easily found in outback of Oz than in Europe - very rarely does one see even mid, let alone better JVC TTs for sale in Europe. Black Plastic Box galore...
> 
> Astonishingly, there is today one QL-Y3F on French ebay - for some reason, France seems to be the JVC fort in Europe. If it has to cross oceans, the resulting end price is usually too high.
> 
> So - how would you compare the sound of your Rega and JVC, what argument in sound would you use to convience a Rega fanboy to at least audition a good JVC? Please note that I do not want to start yet another belt vs direct drive war or anything, just interested in your long term experience with both.




The JVC has sentimental value so it may cloud my judgement. But, I find it to be more refined and a bit warmer than the Rega... The JVC is very well controlled in terms of speed with the quartz lock etc. I haven't had much time with the Rega yet though so when I get both running I will do a comparison with the same cartridge.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> The JVC has sentimental value so it may cloud my judgement. But, I find it to be more refined and a bit warmer than the Rega... The JVC is very well controlled in terms of speed with the quartz lock etc. I haven't had much time with the Rega yet though so when I get both running I will do a comparison with the same cartridge.


 
  Fair enough. I am looking forward to your impressions. 
   
  The fairest comparisons of this kind is the use of the same type of cartridge on both tables using the single replaceable stylus on both. This reduces sample to sample variations in cartridge/styli to the practical minimum.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> I've found an RB250 w/ underslung counterweight and VAF adjustment and also an RB300 w/ Incognito Wiring upgrade... I'm leaning towards the RB300 what do you reckon?


 
  My $0.20...
  1. The Rega re-wire IS overrated, in spite of the fact that the RB250 comes with some unimpressive looking wires. I also like that the OEM Rega wiring is grounded to the tonearm so no ground wire.
  2. A modified RB250 (basically upgrade the endstub/counterweight) can outperform an stock RB300. has to do with the bearing assembly and the way anti-skating is managed on the RB300.
  3. The VTA is not as critical with Rega tonearms (according to Gandy), unless you use an especially tall/short cartridge or modify the platter thickness. But the on the fly VTA is great to have in case you do want to mess around.
   
  What brand is the upgraded counterweight on the RB250?


----------



## Jesterphile

parbaked said:


> My $0.20...
> 1. The Rega re-wire IS overrated, in spite of the fact that the RB250 comes with some unimpressive looking wires. I also like that the OEM Rega wiring is grounded to the tonearm so no ground wire.
> 2. A modified RB250 (basically upgrade the endstub/counterweight) can outperform an stock RB300. has to do with the bearing assembly and the way anti-skating is managed on the RB300.
> 3. The VTA is not as critical with Rega tonearms (according to Gandy), unless you use an especially tall/short cartridge or modify the platter thickness. But the on the fly VTA is great to have in case you do want to mess around.
> ...




I believe it is the CCM from Pete riggle


----------



## Skylab

jesterphile said:


> The old JVC's are great. I have a QL-Y3F which is similar to a Denon DL-47F.
> 
> I would say the QL-Y3F is in a different league compared to the Rega




This does not surprise me at all. In my experience, the better 70's and 80's direct drive Japanese turntables from JVC, Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, Kenwood et al generally will sound much better than entry level belt drive turntables made today. About 10-12 years ago when my Kenwood died, I bought a Pro-Ject to replace it. And I was devastated - it sounded much worse than the Kenny. I found a Denon DP-59L, and the magic was back! I still have and use the Denon regularly. My VPI Scoutmaster is a little better than the DP-59L...but not as much as some might think...


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> I believe it is the CCM from Pete riggle


 
  Then it should be very pretty indeed!
  Those have a nice crafted look!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





skylab said:


> This does not surprise me at all. In my experience, the better 70's and 80's direct drive Japanese turntables from JVC, Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, Kenwood et al generally will sound much better than entry level belt drive turntables made today. About 10-12 years ago when my Kenwood died, I bought a Pro-Ject to replace it. And I was devastated - it sounded much worse than the Kenny. I found a Denon DP-59L, and the magic was back! I still have and use the Denon regularly. My VPI Scoutmaster is a little better than the DP-59L...but not as much as some might think...


 
  In the link I posted yesterday in "turntable setup", there was tested Inspire Hi Fi Monarch turntable, with the measurements to die for. http://www.inspirehifi.co.uk/  Turns out Inspire Hi Fi is taking the best reasonably available TTs and mods them into stratosphere. There are LP12s, L78s, etc, yet the prince of them all seems to be the 1210 with new - ahem - most everything, being called Monarch. There is even baby version of the 1210 mod, retaining the most crucial changes from stock. They are relatively inexpensive, but do not expect them to be cheap.
   
  Nothing like that would be happening if basically the Technics design was not sound. Even the very top Technics TTs , SP 10 Mk II and SP 10 MK III, had more than fair share of their gremlins - none of which are not possible to be put aside. But the sheer numbers of 1210 produced and their relative availability makes such endavors as Inspire's possible. SP 10s are simply too rare and too expensive for this purpose.
   
  Technics was not alone - JVC, Kenwood, Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, to stay with those that do not cost an arm and a leg. There were "statement" designs by above and other japanese manufacturers in early 80s, both direct and belt drive, never exported out of Japan, that can still be regarded as role models in engineering - being matched or surpassed only fairly recently, at 5 figures or more. When confronted with this calibre, belt drives like Linn or Rega have zero chance. They are great value for money, but once true precision is required, direct drive starts creeping in - if not through the main door, through back, if not there, through chimney, etc. There are modern DDs,
  Rockport, Grand Prix Monaco, Brinkmann Bardo, VPI - true, they are expensive, but they would not come into being if it was felt such results were achievable trough other means. And this SOTA technology should trickle down to products more people will be able to afford.
   
  There is a caveat with vintage DDs. If ICs in their electronic regulation fail, you can end up with a dead TT - replacement parts are in more and more cases becoming no longer available. Which brings us to 1210 again - for forseable future, it will be possible to maintain your existing "basically 1210" if by no other means, through canibalizing say beat up DJ deck you should be able to get at reasonable price.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  My Groovetracer on RB303:


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> My Groovetracer on RB303:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  The Groovetracer is one of the best!
  Riggle has this real crafted look:
   

   
  Your RB303 picture (compared to the above RB250/Riggle) illustrates why some prefer the basic design of RB250, specifically the tonearm bearing assembly. The RB250 has two simple points of support whereas the RB303 has the anti-skating function (that dial) complicating one of the bearing supports.


----------



## basman

Quote: 





silent one said:


> What a happy looking corner!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Beautifully warm looking.  I approve of the cans, too.


 
   
  Thanks, it comes with scoutmaster black acrylic platter, JMW 9T signature arm and 300 rpm motor at a price of pre-owned scout.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yeah, ironic that Roy Gandy probably doesn't even believe in anti-skate.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Yeah, ironic that Roy Gandy probably doesn't even believe in anti-skate.


 
  Yeah, many Rega tweakers don't use the anti-skate.
  Gandy also has his own ideas on isolation (light and rigid), VTA (doesn't matter) and grounding (in the tonearm).
  Having said that I am a huge fan of his tables. They just work for me...


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yeah, I know about the VTA, and here's his spacers.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Yeah, I know about the VTA, and here's his spacers.


 
  Measure with an micrometer, mark with chalk, chop off with an axe...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
  I did stumble upon a mod of Rega 250 arm I would be delighted to hear; the only thing it did lack was absence of azimuth adjustment.
   http://www.audiomods.co.uk/  They offer micrometer for precise and repeatable adjustment of VTA - increments in "spacers" are FAR too
  big, you will likely always miss the sweet spot. And they offer KIT versions of their modded arms ! - special version for Technics SL 1210 too ...


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Measure with an micrometer, mark with chalk, chop off with an axe...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  When my VTA looks off I just tilt my head a little (that's what Mr. Gandy told me to do)...


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Oh, I know you're right but it may be a journey too far for this old leveler.


----------



## Jesterphile

I'm playing around with a few ideas/options with the DV-20B
   
  Option 1: Send to Garrott Bros. to get it retipped once again
   
  Option 2: Apparently I can trade it in to Dynavector for a discount on one of their new units (Looking at the DV-10X5)
   
  Option 3: Try something new
   
  Any suggestions for Option 3?


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> I'm playing around with a few ideas/options with the DV-20B
> 
> Option 1: Send to Garrott Bros. to get it retipped once again
> 
> ...


 
  I love both MM and MC.  I've lived with MC20 MKII and Koetsu Onyx and loved them both. I've also loved an ADC XLM that tracked at one gram and several versions of the V15. Right now I'm back in MM land with the 2M Black.
   
  It's mighty snappy.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> I'm playing around with a few ideas/options with the DV-20B
> 
> Option 3: Try something new
> 
> Any suggestions for Option 3?


 
  Maybe something that matches "famously" with your phono stage?
  Compliance is good.
  That is a direction I would consider...


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> the 2M Black.
> 
> It's mighty snappy.


 
  Sounds appealing.  This coming from a Grado Sonata guy.
   
  Mmmm.


----------



## Jesterphile

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> I love both MM and MC.  I've lived with MC20 MKII and Koetsu Onyx and loved them both. I've also loved an ADC XLM that tracked at one gram and several versions of the V15. Right now I'm back in MM land with the 2M Black.
> 
> It's mighty snappy.


 
   
  I've been considering the 2M Black for a while, how would you describe its sound?


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> I've been considering the 2M Black for a while, how would you describe its sound?


 
  Yes please, I've been using a HOMC (Benz Silver) and would like to try a MM.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Not unllke a Type V.  Has that "aliveness" that MC's have trouble with.  I run mine at about 1.58 and it has tracked everything effortlessly.  For me, it was a wake up call.
   
  I've rediscovered those Sony/Columbia classical half speed masters and there's plenty of soundstage and it can do sub-bass when it's there.
   
  I know you'd like me to be more specific but that's the best I can do.  Sorry.


----------



## Jesterphile

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Not unllke a Type V.  Has that "aliveness" that MC's have trouble with.  I run mine at about 1.58 and it has tracked everything effortlessly.  For me, it was a wake up call.
> 
> I've rediscovered those Sony/Columbia classical half speed masters and there's plenty of soundstage and it can do sub-bass when it's there.
> 
> I know you'd like me to be more specific but that's the best I can do.  Sorry.


 
  Not a problem. I wish I could just buy them all


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> I know you'd like me to be more specific but that's the best I can do.  Sorry.


 
   
   
  That was good.
   
  Tempting even.


----------



## Jesterphile

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> That was good.
> 
> Tempting even.


 
  Very tempting.
   
  I think I'll have to restrain myself back down the Ortofon line to a Red or Blue...


----------



## Eee Pee

Black or nothing.  Go big.


----------



## Jesterphile

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Black or nothing.  Go big.


 
   
  I suppose I can eat nothing but rice next week...


----------



## Eee Pee

I'll buy you some Sriracha sauce and ramen noodles.


----------



## Jesterphile

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> I'll buy you some Sriracha sauce and ramen noodles.


 
  Can you buy me the 2M Black instead?


----------



## Eee Pee

No.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> I love both MM and MC.  I've lived with MC20 MKII and Koetsu Onyx and loved them both. I've also loved an ADC XLM that tracked at one gram and several versions of the V15. Right now I'm back in MM land with the 2M Black.
> 
> It's mighty snappy.


 
  Same experience here. Different cartridges (but one, if we do not consider next to inexcapable V15 ) , but perfectly understand where you are coming from. 
   
  For anyone that has been on exclusively MC diet for a considerable time; try a good MM - it might turn out it was what you were craving for all the time...


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Black or nothing.  Go big.


 
  I tend to agree. Although it might be interesting to hear Bronze vs Black - it is considerable price difference for what may be rather small difference in sound. Never did hear either. Remember - this is supposed to be mounted on Rega which does not allow for precise VTA, and Shibata stylus on Black is less tolerant of VTA errors than Fine Line on Bronze.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> I tend to agree. Although it might be interesting to hear Bronze vs Black - it is considerable price difference for what may be rather small difference in sound. Never did hear either. Remember - this is supposed to be mounted on Rega which does not allow for precise VTA, and Shibata stylus on Black is less tolerant of VTA errors than Fine Line on Bronze.


 
   
  That said, however, the 2M series was actually designed with the Rega arms taken into consideration. Notice how the shape of the cartridge matches the headshell almost exactly when aligned properly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Compliance-wise, also a very close match.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> That said, however, the 2M series was actually designed with the Rega arms taken into consideration. Notice how the shape of the cartridge matches the headshell almost exactly when aligned properly
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  True. Manufacturers have to produce what sells well - with all Rega arms out there, Ortofon had to come up with a cartridge that matches this type of arm. And they finally did produce a decent sounding body for their VMS generator. Concorde/OM is far worse in this regard.


----------



## calipilot227

Point I should have included: unless you've got a ridiculously thick platter mat, VTA of the 2M Black should be near-perfect.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> I'm playing around with a few ideas/options with the DV-20B
> 
> Option 1: Send to Garrott Bros. to get it retipped once again
> 
> ...


 
  Surprisingly, there is very little mention of the Nagaoka cartridges. Although it has been awhile since I last heard a Nagaoka, long enough for them to in the meantime add another zero to their model line to differentiate remaining old stock from new production, I would suggest the MP 500.  Sorry, I know it is TOTL, it costs what it does, you will eat nothing but rice for a while and I can not buy you one,  but from examining the measurements of all current MP X00 series, it appears to be the the greatest bargain of them all. Unless you are born under such lucky analog star you menage to get somewhere a NOS MP11 Boron, which is a rare case of cartridge manufacturer's generosity in a business that normally has to apply appropriate price tag to each and every square micron of its product. 
   
  As Nagaoka is a MM cartridge , you have to be careful with electrical load - both arm wiring and input resistance and capacitance of your preamp can have a marked effect on end sonic result.


----------



## Baxide

The Nagaoka carts are indeed very good performers. But I myself could never get to terms with MM cartridges. I prefer the sound of the high output MC carts. Denon should be high on the list for those types if you are not a lottery winner.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Oh, I know you're right but it may be a journey too far for this old leveler.


 
  It always ultimately boils down to how much one is willing to do in order to get great sound. That on average it means Rega level of "precision" when it comes to stylus alignment in the groove. I am not saying Rega is poor in other departments, but in this crucial one it simply does not allow you to get
  the optimum from any given cartridge. At least not in stock form.
   
  I use Eminent Technology ET2 linear tracking air bearing tonearm as my default choice for cartridge testing/evaluation. Of all arms I am familiar with, it is the single one sporting correct geometry in 3D, even when and during VTA is changed while playing. It has a bad reputation that it is (about) the hardest one to get adjusted right. To say that it pops out of the box and mounts itself on the TT and adjust itself while brewing your tea would be the biggest lie I can think of in regard of turntables; but once set up, cartridge change is not that bad and although quite expensive, additional arm wands do help in this regard. Wish I could afford more of them. 
   
  To illustrate the point: many years ago, somebody brought to me a "XY, non Rega" turntable complaining "something is wrong with balance" . Sure, it did sound mighty strange, but nothing one could directly attribute to parameters you can adjust on Rega. I measured the thing and it turned out that cartridge had a massive azimuth error, exceeding anything I had ever measured before. As otherwise this cartridge did both sound and measure very promising, I reluctantly removed a painstakingly adjusted cartridge from one of my ET2 wands and mounted that azimuth offending cartridge.  It turned out it required a massive 3 1/2 degree of compensation, but once properly adjusted, turned out to be about as perfect as it gets.
   
  One machining of a proprietary custom 3 1/2 degree aluminium wedge to go between non azimuth adjustable arm headshell and the offending cartridge later, the ugly duckling turned into a VERY beautiful swan. If I did not have the capability to check for the correct azimuth compensation, no way I could ever find this cart was soooo good, save for the azimuth.
   
  In theory, cartridges should be azimuth error free. In practice, they are not. Once you go past the 35 or so dB channel separation, it is less than 1/3rd of a degree azimuth compensation required. Arm manufacturers can claim their arms are correct for azimuth to within a fraction of degree; look at the real life photos of the styli/cantilevers and you can not but realize that insisting on fixed azimuth is asking for trouble in real life. There are good solutions for azimuth correction out there, some are even clever enough to contribute to better damping of the arm tube than it would be in the case of a single piece tubing - negating the rigidity claim, which is the usual argument for the manufacturers who provide no azimuth adjustment.
   
  A relatively very modest TT, far lower on the "food chain", can, if properly adjusted, sound far better than a superior product with slight mismatch in adjustments. Trouble is - once you hear it right, you will not want to return to anything less. 
   
  Then again, there is always "a bridge too far" .


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





baxide said:


> The Nagaoka carts are indeed very good performers. But I myself could never get to terms with MM cartridges. I prefer the sound of the high output MC carts. Denon should be high on the list for those types if you are not a lottery winner.


 
  MM is something that should have never happened in its present form - save for few exceptions far and between, of which only couple of very expensive Grado models are in current production. MM is originally patent by ELAC from 1957, known to most people as Shure cartridge, which was/is built under license. With all the limitations of by now 60 years old technology. It was improvement over ceramic carts back then, yet it is limitation now for at least 30 years. MM is next to impossible to predict how it will sound in any real given system - so great can be effects of electrical loading. Mechanically, they are MUCH more easy to produce well than MCs, and a good stylus/cantilever/moving whatever is the first prerequisite for good sound - if there are problems here, superior generating principle can even be detrimental...
   
  I agree Denon HOMCs are way underrated. They basically offer very honest reproduction and give practically any other cart run for the money. But they just can not produce the detail of their ( too/more) expensive counterparts. I wish Denon made a HOMC version with say Fine Line ( or equivalent ) stylus on slightly better cantilever - it would bridge most of the gap at minimum price increase. MCs are, for all practical purposes, unaffected by electrical loading ( particularly capacitance) - at least those leading to gross frequency deviations and are therefore much more predictable how they sound.
   
  That said - low impedance ( < 5 ohm ), low output MCs are so much beter that it can be scary.
  But you need to win lottery not for the cartridge alone, but supporting MC input as well. AND you have to create low electrical noise enviroment once you go with cartridge output below
  say 0,3 mV/5cm/sec, otherwise noise/hum/buzz will obscure any advantages to the point of anyone preferring HOMC in noisy system. Lots of work or another lottery win.
   
  It is always the combination of principle and implementation - AND cost. At the same price, you can have better stylus/cantilever on MM, as on MC coil is more expensive than magnet - etc, ad nuseaum. If you can listen prior to purchase in your own system or at dealer's with at least your phono stage - use that, can save tons of time and money.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> Point I should have included: unless you've got a ridiculously thick platter mat, VTA of the 2M Black should be near-perfect.


 
  Arm height should have been adjustable on ALL arms/turntables. At some most it is not because of price constraints or unproportionally difficult implementation of say automatic functions of arm/table. 
   
  I do resort to mat thickness in cases there are no other options to correct for VTA. This means compromising the very important interface platter/record, which should be allowed to do its job without having to think of VTA. High/tall cartridge>thin mat, low/small cartridge>thick mat - and record interface can lead to more sonic difference than there is between the cartridges.
   
  I do not want to comment on $ 6000 + (yes, six grand + ) mat I recently saw revieved. I realize most of us are normal people not picking up money on street, off tree etc. Then again, at least costlier Regas are not inexpensive either and should allow for correct VTA of any cartridge likely to be used with them, not just Rega, which is SUPPOSED to be correct. The problem are sample to sample variations in cartridges - they differ enough for the "one size fits all" not be really optimum, in any production, Rega included.
   
  This is precisely the reason why Technics T4P p-mount system ultimately failed. All dimensions standardized, weight standardized, compliance standardized  - means in theory, cartridge can be replaced with a single screw, in seconds, no adjustments other than MM/MC setting required.. In practice, there are slightly longer or shorter cantilevers, bringing the stylus slightly off intended perfect alignment. T4P carts are as susceptible to azimuth errors as any other - and here you can basicaly do - nothing. Same for VTA variations. Compliances varied, to the point of Ortofon adapting its otherwise superb miniature MC cartridge MC 100/200  to T4P format as TMC100/200. Both compliance and VTF are far too low, 1.25 g What  which is default setting for T4P specified arm is only wishful thinking when tracking a 100/200, which requires at least 1.8 gram VTF to work properly. Resonance usually gets too high in frequency, muddying the bass . All of the above can lead to abysmal sonic results - and it did. It took me long before I even started considering anything T4P because of these issues that have officially no cure or remedy. Sometimes, solutions that would make McGyver green with envy, have to be used. 
   
  Bottom line - some form of continuosly variable height is required. It is precisely your cartridge that needs to be accurately adjusted, not any other.
  There can be rafinements as ability to use VTA on the fly while playing, precise micrometers etc - although desirable, not absolutely necessary. But discrete thickness spacers and varying mat thickness to roughly get VTA right somehow do not belong in this age - grammophone should have come of age by now - even its intended replacement CD is now celebrating its 30th birthday.


----------



## TheWuss

So glad to see this thread getting so much action lately.
  lots of great insight and pics...
   
  To give a brief update on my new VPI JMW 3D tonearm and Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge...
   
  The sound just keeps getting better and better.
  The dynamics and speed of this combo eclipses my previous arm/cart combo of JMW 10.5i with Dynavector XX-2 mk.II.
   
  Chad Stelly at Acoustic Sounds set up the cartridge for me, and shipped it already attached to the arm. 
  So, basically, the only thing left for me to do was to remove the damping fluid well from the pivot bearing, adjust the VTA, and install the ant-skating device.
   
  Before he shipped it to me, he commented that this combo was the most dynamic arm/cartridge combo he had ever heard.  Perhaps not on par with his Lyra Atlas or whatever, but he said it had more slam and impact than any other combo he had ever heard...  he said he wished he could keep it around and keep listening to it...  
   
  As I pointed out before, the azimuth on this new light-weight arm is incredibly sensitive.  And this was the most time-consuming aspect of the install.
  It seems the self-weight of the metal tonearms allows them to withstand a small amount of eccentricity between the counterweight and the azimuth of the stylus.
  But the feather-light 3D arm requries that the counterweight be perfectly set to allow the stylus to track vertically.
  Otherwise, the entire arm begins see-sawing.
  The SoundSmith Counter-Intuitive really came in handy, as i was making minute adjustments to the azimuth to get the arm and stylus to track as dead-level and still as possible...
  The resulting sound is pretty splendid indeed.
  Rock-solid imaging, wide stereo sound, and liveliness that CD just can't touch...


----------



## bbophead

Good to hear about Chad.  We worked together in the 80's-90's at Home Entertainment, then Tweeter, in Houston,


----------



## calipilot227

In order to keep this *mostly* a photo thread (although the discussion is great), here's some more Rega shots for ya. Just got my DSLR back, finally.


----------



## bbophead

Excellent!  Love the pics.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> In order to keep this *mostly* a photo thread (although the discussion is great), here's some more Rega shots for ya. Just got my DSLR back, finally.


 
  Hey your P2 looks like my P2!
   

   

   
   
  Your pic reminds me of our earlier posts re: Gandy's unique ideas on TTs where we forgot to mention dust covers! 
  The Rega manuals actually state that using and closing the dust cover while playing "may" improve the sound....
  Throw yours back on. It stops wind noise from getting in the way of your enjoyment!


----------



## Eee Pee

I grew up to believe dust covers are like a giant resonator, imparting a sound of their own.
   
  Gandy also said don't clean your records.  And you can Google that for proof.
   
  Different train of thought, and more power to him, but c'mon.  A dirty record is not a good thing.


----------



## calipilot227

Quote: 





parbaked said:


>


 
  How old is your P2? Mine is 5 years old, but it had a different stock platter (tapered MDF, painted black like the rest of the table). Is yours a stock or upgraded platter? I use a P3 glass platter.
   
   
  Quote: 





eee pee said:


> *I grew up to believe dust covers are like a giant resonator, imparting a sound of their own.*
> 
> Gandy also said don't clean your records.  And you can Google that for proof.
> 
> Different train of thought, and more power to him, but c'mon.  A dirty record is not a good thing.


 
  Yeah, I usually leave mine off when playing. I was of a similar opinion. I used to use a record weight, which wouldn't fit with the cover closed, so I usually just remove it out of habit. If the resonance theory is accurate, it wouldn't be wise as my speakers have 15" woofers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  His idea about cleaning records though is bull-poo. I don't want a dirty record anywhere near my 2M Blue stylus.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> So glad to see this thread getting so much action lately.
> lots of great insight and pics...
> 
> To give a brief update on my new VPI JMW 3D tonearm and Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge...
> ...


 
  Thank you for the update !


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> I grew up to believe dust covers are like a giant resonator, imparting a sound of their own.
> 
> Gandy also said don't clean your records.  And you can Google that for proof.
> 
> Different train of thought, and more power to him, but c'mon.  A dirty record is not a good thing.


 
  Dust covers as generally known and used behave exactly like you stated. The only dust cover I know of that actually has a chance of improving the sound when in use during playback is that from the original Kuzma Stabi and Kuzma Stabi 2 - solid wooden frame and a thick glass on top. That "dust cover" alone weighs about the same as an entry level turntable. 
   
  You can make a very simple test to find if your dustcover is actually transmitting airborne vibration - specially as this is head-fi, where people should have headphones and not hate them to death as some do. Place a record on the STATIONARY table and lower the stylus in the groove, at normal listening volume.  Listen with headphones. You can tap with finger on the dustcover - what you will hear is not likely to please you. You can extend that test - but now instead of tapping use some music played at normal listening level over loudspeaker and listen for the result on turntable with closed or IEM headphones. That is a bit more difficult to accomodate, but the easiest way is to listen to the phono preamp directly into your headphone amp while playing say CD over speakers - as preamps with full tape loop/dubbing are getting rare these days. That should convince anyone that dust covers act like giant microphones and are specially detrimental with decks without sprung sub chassis, where the vibrations picked up by the dust cover are directly injected into the plinth. 
   
  I do use a few records in "never clean it" mode, to test TTs how well they can supress things they never should be there in the first place. Really great analog will be relatively very quiet in the groove, lesser will noise, tick and pop far more. Although great for such purpose, not cleaning records should be avoided whenever possible.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





calipilot227 said:


> How old is your P2? Mine is 5 years old, but it had a different stock platter (tapered MDF, painted black like the rest of the table). Is yours a stock or upgraded platter? I use a P3 glass platter.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I usually leave mine off when playing. I was of a similar opinion. I used to use a record weight, which wouldn't fit with the cover closed, so I usually just remove it out of habit. If the resonance theory is accurate, it wouldn't be wise as my speakers have 15" woofers
> ...


 
  I bought mine in 2005 with the MDF (it's actually HDF - high density fiberboard) platter and then scored a glass platter from a P5 - same platter as yours.
   
  I like how Gandy says your needle will scoop up the dust for you!
  He's really saying don't torque the motor/belt by using the motor to turn record while cleaning and putting too much pressure on record. 
  So i do wipe my records before putting them on the TT instead of cleaning while on the platter.


----------



## bbophead

Didn't Linn have the same no clean philosophy?


----------



## Silent One

Curiously, what were the benefits claimed by not cleaning records?


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Curiously, what were the benefits claimed by not cleaning records?


 
  They thought it was not necessary so the benefit was not wasting time doing it.  Heh.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Curiously, what were the benefits claimed by not cleaning records?


 
  I think the "benefits" are twofold:
  1) NOT using your Rega to clean records e.g. clean on something other than your TT, benefit being no strain on motor/belt by friction more than just the stylus on record and
  2) belief that not all solvents sold are not necessarily good for one's vinyl.
  I clean with a "SpinClean" when I first get an album and then use a Hunt brush, but not while LP is on the TT.
   
  These are the actual operating hints from Rega:
   
   
 Hints and Tips using your Turntable
  
 Mount the turntable on a rigid, level surface. A light shelf or
 turntable support screwed to a wall or in an alcove i s ideal.
 Avoid mount ing on hol low or heavy cabinets or anything
 mounted on a wooden floor.
  
 Try to keep the lid closed while playing the records. This will
 prevent dust falling on to the records and make cleaning
 unnecessary. There may also be a sonic improvement.
  
 Don't use any record cleaner that works while the record is
 playing or any cleaners that use water or solvents. I f you
 keep your records stored in their sleeves, avoid touching the
 playing surfaces, play with the lid down and keep all water
 and fluids away, cleaning should not be necessary. Don't
 worry about visible dust on the record surface, this is
 brushed aside by the stylus and any that collects on the stylus
 can be easily blown away. In general, record cleaning is
 overdone and one should not believe all the claims made by
 record cleaner manufacturers.
  
 Leave the turntable running during a record playing session.
 Switch on before the session and only switch off after you
 have finished.
  
 Don't lift the centre hub out from the main bearing. The bearing
 i s factory assembled with a film of special thick lubricant.
 I f the centre hub i s removed this film may be disturbed.
 Rega turntables are designed to optimise performance for
 music reproduction and therefore no compromises have been
 made to give quick start times. The normal time taken for full
 speed to be reached is between 2-5 seconds.
  
 The arm earth (or ground) is automatically connected
 through the arm cable screening. No other earthing should
 be necessary.
  
 Save the original packing in case you ever need to transport
 the turntable.
  
 Don't use any polishes on the turntable or lid . To clean or
 dust, wipe gently with a soft cotton duster (slightly damp only
 if necessary).
  
 Should you experience any problem with your turntable or
 wish to enquire about servicing please contact your Rega
 dealer.


----------



## Silent One

_Interesting.._.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> I think the "benefits" are twofold:
> 1) NOT using your Rega to clean records e.g. clean on something other than your TT, benefit being no strain on motor/belt by friction more than just the stylus on record and
> 2) belief that not all solvents sold are not necessarily good for one's vinyl.
> I clean with a "SpinClean" when I first get an album and then use a Hunt brush, but not while LP is on the TT.
> ...


 
  That Rega list I did see long ago enough to forget it - and did not giggle any less now than the first time around.
   
  More some other time, I would like you to know about the dust that does collect on the stylus and what are its effects. Well, you all know if the record is real dirty it will clog the stylus so much as to cause severe mistracking/distortion. This happens only in extreme cases, say if you forgot the record on the platter and did not use dust cover for extended period - at least over weekend or vacation. But problems start much earlier than that. And it affects the Aichille's heel of almost any turntable, cartridge compliance/tonearm mass resonance (usually around 10 Hz ) first. Once while measuring low frequency resonance, bad enough at usual + 12 or so dB at peak, it went "off chart", 20 dB+, threatening to jump the groove. I immediately stopped the measurement - and found the culprit. A tiny barely visible piece of fluff was clinging to the stylus - after brushing it aside, normal performance restored. Such fluff is normally considered harmless - it was more or less a single "hair", but much smaller and thinner.
   
  It is hard to reproduce this measurement - because it is difficult to find repeatable "fluff". Records are not clean, even the ones just cleaned on RCM will still be leaving dust particles on brushes of Shure, Stanton or Pickering cartridges . One can not prevent dust falling on record, but normal dust covers are detrimental to sound. I dislike sound negative effects of those brushes and do not use them - so cleaning the record while playing seems ever less and less out of place. There were good dry cleaners that usually double as static removal devices. They are still made today. It just might mean I will have to sacrifice one of my tonearms and replace it with "broom" - no place for it on my TT at the present.
   
  A turntable should have enough torque for at least two times the friction of single stylus - and that is enough for ""broom"


----------



## Eee Pee

I don't find it interesting.  I see it another way, I guess.  Granted I've bought into VPI's marketing and designs, which are quite the opposite of Rega's.  A big and heavy everything with a clamp or weight to get a good coupling with the vinyl to deaden everything, and a record cleaner to go with it.
   
  I wouldn't even know where to begin to argue how or why a clean record is better, other than the record is clean.  I can hear it for myself.  And as much as I try to be the perfect record handler, little slips happen.  I even wash my hands often during the session when I set out for a night of listening, but it's pretty easy to accidentally touch the first few grooves with an oily finger when handling them in and out of the sleeves.  And I live in a really dusty place (due to my work), and it gets bad in here.  Then there's static cling in the few feet between sleeve and the record player.  Maybe he only listens to brand new vinyl once (which isn't clean either).
   
  I have no fear of using a brush on a record while it's on the platter.  Belts slip, and it's fine.  And they're wear items anyways.  I even clean the side of the platter where the belt rides every now and then, and the belt with soapy water.  And I clean the platter with my air bulb blower or even my MoFi brush if it's the delrin VPI before every flip.  But everything still gets dusty.  It just happens.
   
  VPI used to suggest using talcum powder on their belt, so I did.  More slip.  Different belt back then though.
   
  Maybe Gandy likes the added resonance with his tables with the cover down.
   
  I almost bought a Rega, so I'm not bashing, really.  But I'd still do my routine despite what he thinks.
   
  Photo thread remember!  That's not where I keep all that, that was to show off my stuff.


----------



## bbophead

I think you are absolutely correct.  Clean beats hell out of dirty.  I do want to make sure I don't spend more time cleaning and fussing than listening, though.  It's almost as if Gandy and Ivor Tiefenbrun just want to be contrarians.  Could it be?


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> I think you are absolutely correct.  Clean beats hell out of dirty.  I do want to make sure I don't spend more time cleaning and fussing than listening, though.  It's almost as if Gandy and Ivor Tiefenbrun just want to be contrarians.  Could it be?


 
  IMO Gandy's really just saying 1) don't use your Rega as a record cleaning machine and 2) listen more and fiddle less.
  A simple, well designed mechanism can perform better than one that requires fiddling and adjustments for the owner to "feel" they are getting the most out of their system.


----------



## jackskelly

There are a lot of great turntables in this thread. I currently own a Technics 1200 MK2, and while I don't really want to sell it now, I would like to upgrade to a better turntable. What recommendations does anyone have for a turntable in the $3-5K range that would be significantly better than the 1200? Maybe I should upgrade my cartridge first before I try a new turntable. Right now I have a Shure M97xE, which I know is quite common.


----------



## palmfish

Significantly better? I guess it depends on what you consider "significant."
   
  In my opinion, you are already 95% there. You could spend a lot and get little (or nothing...).


----------



## Skylab

Long before I would buy a new TT, I would upgrade that Shure cartridge. Your Technics will certainly scale up significantly with a better pickup.


----------



## Hi-Five

Quote: 





jackskelly said:


> There are a lot of great turntables in this thread. I currently own a Technics 1200 MK2, and while I don't really want to sell it now, I would like to upgrade to a better turntable. What recommendations does anyone have for a turntable in the $3-5K range that would be significantly better than the 1200? Maybe I should upgrade my cartridge first before I try a new turntable. Right now I have a Shure M97xE, which I know is quite common.


 
   
  I ran 1200's for many, many years using the same cartridges for home listening as I did for playing out, American DJ Banana's (rebranded Ortofon Concorde I believe).  The Banana's are great carts for mixing, but I had no idea how good these decks could sound with a better cart.  I went "up" the ladder with Denon DL-110 -> Denon DL-160 -> Benz Micro Silver -> Audio Technica AT150MLX.
   
  I must say each of these carts sound very good on a 1200.  The 110 is a great daily spinner, lots of low end and pretty smooth for it's price point.  The 160 improves on everything the 110 does, a bit leaner but punchier low end and a quite extended high end, still very smooth.  The Benz became my daily for about a year or so, nice tonal balance overall and decent clarity.  It is a great cart, but not as "fun" as the Denons IMO.  Still was good enough to stay in service until I picked up the 150MLX.  Currently, the AT is my favorite on these decks.  It has a deep, full and punchy low end you might expect with a higher end MM, but it still has excellent resolution and delicacy to the highs that betray its MM construction.  I would probably run the DL-160 more if I knew I could replace it at some point, but it's no longer in production so I keep the hours low.
   
  I've also heard the AT440 on a 1200 that sounded great, I imagine similar to the AT150 but memory fails in a comparison.  IMO one of the best value carts is the DL-110 if you can't spring for the AT150MLX.
   
  I'd love to hear others' favorites as well.  The whole universal head-shell thing makes having multiple carts pretty fun and easy to live with.  That said, none of the combos sound quite as good as my VPI Classic / Dyna 20X2 setup, but a 1200 can get probably 90% there with some light modding IMO.  I've not tried the DV20X2 on any of my 12's, but that would be an interesting experiment...the cart costs more than the decks did!
   
  Hope that helps,
  Hi-Five


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Long before I would buy a new TT, I would upgrade that Shure cartridge. Your Technics will certainly scale up significantly with a better pickup.


 
  And consider some of the numerous mods to get more out of your 1200.


----------



## jackskelly

Quote: 





hi-five said:


> I ran 1200's for many, many years using the same cartridges for home listening as I did for playing out, American DJ Banana's (rebranded Ortofon Concorde I believe).  The Banana's are great carts for mixing, but I had no idea how good these decks could sound with a better cart.  I went "up" the ladder with Denon DL-110 -> Denon DL-160 -> Benz Micro Silver -> Audio Technica AT150MLX.
> 
> I must say each of these carts sound very good on a 1200.  The 110 is a great daily spinner, lots of low end and pretty smooth for it's price point.  The 160 improves on everything the 110 does, a bit leaner but punchier low end and a quite extended high end, still very smooth.  The Benz became my daily for about a year or so, nice tonal balance overall and decent clarity.  It is a great cart, but not as "fun" as the Denons IMO.  Still was good enough to stay in service until I picked up the 150MLX.  Currently, the AT is my favorite on these decks.  It has a deep, full and punchy low end you might expect with a higher end MM, but it still has excellent resolution and delicacy to the highs that betray its MM construction.  I would probably run the DL-160 more if I knew I could replace it at some point, but it's no longer in production so I keep the hours low.
> 
> ...


 
  That definitely does help. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I feel honored that palmfish and Skylab responded to my post. Thanks for the input! I do think I'll upgrade my cartridge now.


----------



## palmfish

jackskelly said:


> That definitely does help.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




When it comes to vinyl, I'm strickly minor league compared to Skylab...lol!

And FWIW, I have an M97xe on my Pioneer turntable and am very happy with it. It isn't the end all, be all in detail and soundstage depth, but I've compared it with some very high end (5-figure) rigs and I'm 85-90% of the way there. I have no plans to upgrade.


----------



## Skylab

I use a Dynavector 20x2 on my Denon DP-59L, which was a TOTL Japanese DD deck from the 1980's.  It sounds glorious, and would be a real candidate for the 1200, I would agree.  Sure, my VPI ScoutMaster + Benz LP-Smr sounds better...but not as much better as many might think, which is a testament to just how good the serious DD decks from the heyday of vinyl playback can be with a top, well chosen modern cartridge.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





jackskelly said:


> There are a lot of great turntables in this thread. I currently own a Technics 1200 MK2, and while I don't really want to sell it now, I would like to upgrade to a better turntable. What recommendations does anyone have for a turntable in the $3-5K range that would be significantly better than the 1200? Maybe I should upgrade my cartridge first before I try a new turntable. Right now I have a Shure M97xE, which I know is quite common.


 
  1210 is a classical case of a Good Bad Turntable. It is basically extremely sound design, but is not well executed. M97xe can easily be improved upon, but there is a limit how high it makes sense to go with cartridge on stock 1210. Better cart will expose its flaws even more.
   
  I do not want to go in more detail, suffice is to look what Inspire HI FI does to 1210 and you will get the general idea. Absolutely nothing wrong with 1210 principle - getting it realized will burn a hole in the pocket. Still smaller than almost anything comparable in sonics.
   
  How does it sound if you overcooked it with cart relative to TT? It will be a bit/more than a bit/quite some more bright, if you use 3 carts of increasing resolution. The better the cart, the more etched and nervous a sub par TT will sound. Classic case are AT MMs, which are generally thought of as being bright. True - on stock 1210 it can be painful. On a well modded one, using the same cart, you get LESS sound, but what remains is far more true; and no, AT MM on really good TT does not sound thin in the bass, which is second most common complaint on AT MMs. The difference between stock and well modded 1210 is similar to the difference in sound of really good HIFI and music live, only lessened in magnitude - but not much.. 
   
  For your proposed budget, you might want Inspire HI FI take on 1210, the Monarch. Staying with DD, Brinkmann Bardo is a breeze of fresh air in DD TTs and TTs in general - that still is kind of within budget. Arm might well push the price above budget, though.
   
  Or you might want to go more radical - a new idler drive design, for about that money you can squeeze in a decent cart, and you get one of the over decades updated and improved/refined linear tracking arms that inched its entry into truly high class performers  http://www.trans-fi.com/salvation.htm
  No affiliation with the designer/seller, did no hear it yet, but degree of real machining that went into it along with years of experience would cost much more dearly if offered under more traditional approach.
   
  There is more than one road leading to Rome.


----------



## Greyson

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> 1210 is a classical case of a Good Bad Turntable. It is basically extremely sound design, but is not well executed.


 
   
  I'd like to hear a justification of this statement in your own words rather than borrowing them from an internet source.


----------



## Hi-Five

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> [edit]......How does it sound if you overcooked it with cart relative to TT? It will be a bit/more than a bit/quite some more bright, if you use 3 carts of increasing resolution. The better the cart, the more etched and nervous a sub par TT will sound. ...[edit]


 
   
  I always enjoy your posts *analogsurviver *as they are so informative for those of us who may have limited experience or history with vinyl.  I'm quite interested in this estimation of scaling up the Technics with better carts.  I had always thought that the 1200's were generally considered "dark" because of their massive rubber damping scheme of the plinth/body.
   
  In your opinion, do you think the AT150MLX is a good mate for a relatively stock 1200/1210?  I thought the cart was a good match for the stock arm and sounds pretty good to my aging ears.  The Benz Silver was the only cart (in my limited selection) that might have been a little too "bright" but just barely.  I should have also said that I have a rewired arm and the KAB fluid damper on my main bedroom 1200, maybe that eats up some of the brightness.
   
  Best,
  Hi-Five


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





greyson said:


> I'd like to hear a justification of this statement in your own words rather than borrowing them from an internet source.


 
  IMO, analogsurvivor spends enough of his time giving us valuable information. It's ok for us to look up the rather well known 1200 improvement/modifications he references and not have him spell them all out...
  Trust me he is not borrowing from an internet source but identifying a good resource where one can go learn about how to improve a 1200.
  Just read (and appreciate) his posts!
  Just my $0.02...


----------



## Greyson

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> IMO, analogsurvivor spends enough of his time giving us valuable information. It's ok for us to look up the rather well known 1200 improvement/modifications he references and not have him spell them all out...
> Trust me he is not borrowing from an internet source but identifying a good resource where one can go learn about how to improve a 1200.
> Just read (and appreciate) his posts!
> Just my $0.02...


 
   
  I'm sure that's fine if you already agree with what he's posting. I wholeheartedly disagree with the comment that the SL-1200 is "not a well executed design", and if someone is going to lay down a blanket statement as fact I don't think it's unreasonable to expect an explination from that stance, espically when people are taking the word of that particular poster at face value.
   
  I would genuinely like to hear, from his perspective and assumingly based on personal experience, what these design flaws are.


----------



## MorbidToaster

jackskelly said:


> There are a lot of great turntables in this thread. I currently own a Technics 1200 MK2, and while I don't really want to sell it now, I would like to upgrade to a better turntable. What recommendations does anyone have for a turntable in the $3-5K range that would be significantly better than the 1200? Maybe I should upgrade my cartridge first before I try a new turntable. Right now I have a Shure M97xE, which I know is quite common.




WTL Amadeus or Kuzma Stabi/Stogi get my votes. At 5 you could squeeze out a Versalex from WTL, too. Careful with the WTL tables though. Sound is excellent, but their quirks can grate on you.

I'm also a Nottingham fan but they're hard to order as of late.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





greyson said:


> I'd like to hear a justification of this statement in your own words rather than borrowing them from an internet source.


 
  In other words, 1210 is what I call a classic case of "semi product" - one that is fundamentally right and should perform but is let down by the execution.
  I was also not borrowing from an internet source, merely linking something along the lines what I would do if ever decided to work with 1210 - without having to go into great blah blah about details. Bits and pieces are scattered in my posts already.
   
  No time right now ( have to finish/adjust  a prototype microphone in few hours ) to go further, but basically, turntables fail because of one very simple reason. The designers, not to mention users, do not pay attention or fail to realize at all what basically a turntable, or to be specific, a combination of turntable/arm/cartridge=record player IS.
   
  In ONE word.


----------



## Greyson

Well when you do have time i'd love for you to elaborate. Have you owned an SL-1200 yourself? Your post was a bit vague. It's possible that my post wasen't clear, either, so i'll rephrase my initial question. I'd like to hear specifically what elements are "let down" in the execution of the 1200's design and how that affects its performance in playing records and reproducing the information on them. You seem quite familiar with the designers behind the conception of the SL-1200, since according to you they wern't paying attention to the important stuff. So it'd be great to hear more about that.
   
  Good luck with your microphone. As a musician I do some basic home recording so i'd be interested to hear about that too.


----------



## dosley01

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> 1210 is a classical case of a Good Bad Turntable. It is basically extremely sound design, but is not well executed. M97xe can easily be improved upon, but there is a limit how high it makes sense to go with cartridge on stock 1210. Better cart will expose its flaws even more.
> 
> I do not want to go in more detail, suffice is to look what Inspire HI FI does to 1210 and you will get the general idea. Absolutely nothing wrong with 1210 principle - getting it realized will burn a hole in the pocket. Still smaller than almost anything comparable in sonics.
> 
> ...


 

 Some very cool turntables there!  The Salvation and Brinkmann might be way out of my league but the Inspire Hi-Fi's are pretty cool and the lower models are actually pretty reasonable.   Thanks for sharing, I would have probably not come across them otherwise.


----------



## Skylab

Honestly, an in depth discussion of the design merits of the SL-1200 does NOT belong in a picture thread 

To get us back on track a bit: a recent pic of my VPI, with dust cover -


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Honestly, an in depth discussion of the design merits of the SL-1200 does NOT belong in a picture thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Agreed.
   
  Then again - please read http://www.head-fi.org/t/45691/turntables - my first ever turntable post on head-fi. 
   
  Not a SINGLE reply.
   
  You can have acres of gold, chrome, brass, etc etc polished to glaring bling, by visiting say "the most expensive TTs" or similar sites. Or one can take out his or hers Hasselblad and matching supporting equipment and photo his/hers TT to appear on the photo as non plus ultra.
   
  Neither offers absolutely no guarantee as regards actual sound quality. And some of the best sounding tables are unfortunately best described by the lyrics of Leonard Cohen - "we are ugly but we have the music". Pretty face, be it TT or otherwise, has a head start - most of us would dismiss anything that does not "measure up" to at least average accepted current standard of beauty. Even when it proves later on that certain TT's beauty is more than just skin deep.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





dosley01 said:


> Some very cool turntables there!  The Salvation and Brinkmann might be way out of my league but the Inspire Hi-Fi's are pretty cool and the lower models are actually pretty reasonable.   Thanks for sharing, I would have probably not come across them otherwise.


 
  I try to keep my posts at least a bit provocative - in order to make people aware there are more species than Rega and Technics or (place your favourite brand here). It is finding great new stuff at reasonable price before every sparrow is chirping how great it is - by then it will have its price "adjusted". 
   
  I came across Salvation while looking for some totally unrelated turntable - on which forum I forgot. I knew the arm, and did not have a faintest idea that TT was designed to accompany it. I am grateful to the OP mentioning the Salvation as a most probably superiour alternative to the usual suspects that are priced at or well above Salvation and unlikely to offer similarly high SQ.
   
  And I am extremely proud to have won the award for the "Cheapest Audio Component Ever" in the usual sweepstakes held at Mr. Franc Kuzma*s birthday party some ten years ago. TT suspension - made from the cheapest condoms on the market. In percentage, beat the second best bid by some 1000s. We did not have yet Euro as currency back then, but rougly it was the equivalent of somewhere between 1 and 2 Euros.


----------



## Greyson

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Then again - please read http://www.head-fi.org/t/45691/turntables - my first ever turntable post on head-fi.


 
   
  I looked at it, interesting read. You seem a bit irritated so i'll drop it and say that i'd really just like an answer to one simple question, have you ever actaully owned a Technics SL-1200? (Mk2)
   
  And in the interest of keeping Skylab happy;


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





greyson said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Tell us more!  Cartridge?  That's a pretty tight listening space, that is, if you sit in front and in between the speakers.  What's on the right, a headphone box?  Receiver under the TT?
   
  Since I only have one TT, I guess I have to post the same pics over and over to qualify for comment.


----------



## Greyson

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Tell us more!  Cartridge?  That's a pretty tight listening space, that is, if you sit in front and in between the speakers.  What's on the right, a headphone box?  Receiver under the TT?


 
   
  It's larger in person than the photo makes it appear but yeah, the space is not ideal. It's what I have room for.
   
  On the right is a box filled with record supplies, (sleeves, jackets, blank covers) some old records that belonged to my dad which I don't really listen to but keep for sentiment, and an assortment of duplicate records/stuff I bought and just didn't like, waiting to be sold. My primary collection is all in the box next to the turntable. I use an Ortofon 2M Red cartridge and a mid-90's Sony GX909ES reciever.


----------



## bbophead

Thanks.  Reads like it sounds just fine.  No headphones?


----------



## Destroysall

Greyson, do you ever find the Polk speakers to be too bright sometimes?


----------



## Greyson

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Thanks.  Reads like it sounds just fine.  No headphones?


 
   
  I have a pair of Denon AH-D2000's.
   
  Quote: 





destroysall said:


> Greyson, do you ever find the Polk speakers to be too bright sometimes?


 
   
  Well, the highs are certainly accentuated with these towers, it was something I noticed immediatly when I first got them. It depends on the music but I wouldn't say that they are so bright as to be distracting in all but rare circumstances. I also have a matching set of Polk 35b bookshelf speakers for my computer rig and this particular line is, in my opinion, the absolute best value price to quality for new speakers.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





greyson said:


> I looked at it, interesting read. You seem a bit irritated so i'll drop it and say that i'd really just like an answer to one simple question, have you ever actaully owned a Technics SL-1200? (Mk2)
> 
> And in the interest of keeping Skylab happy;


 
  No, I have never personally owned a SL 1210. But - I had on "extended loan" (more than a year) a SP10MK2/EPA 100, came to work with at least two more samples of the same, own double digit number of various models of Technics SL linear tracking turntables and did service/refurbish some 5 or so 1210s that came to me through DJ channels fairly recently, say within last two years. It did provide a cross section of issues that can happen with 1210 - and between the worst and the best of samples received there are worlds of difference in SQ - once serviced/refurbished, they all performed as intended. I also have service manuals for all of the above mentioned TTs. So it can be said I have pretty good idea about Technics TTs, not based on 1210 experience alone. I own several more undisclosed TTs and will post the pics if and when I feel like it - so please no questions about this. All these TTs are being used to study both the sound and long term user experience in order to arrive at what is good/desirable and what is not. I have also seen and auditioned a few prototypes by various people I am not at liberty to discuss in public
   
  And although I can not claim to have experience with every TT that ever turned on this planet, there is hardly a technical solution used to play vinyl I have not experienced yet. Of those, cantileverless phono cartridges, the Decca and Ikeda, are the greatest omissions that I am aware of. 
   
  When I call any product a " semi product ", that is perhaps one of the greatest compliments it can possibly achieve. That means the potential of the original design ( meant as technical construction, damn the looks ) is far higher than realized in the commercially available product - for any reason.
  1210's potential is far above its stock form and once heard what a well "processed" 1210 can achieve, the stock is a Good Bad Turntable. Trouble, as usual, it looks expensive to erase that Bad...


----------



## Greyson

Well, i've used a lot of turntables as well, and i've owned and used a Technics SL-1210Mk2 as my sole turntable for several years, so while I do appretiate the apparent weight that your words carry, you don't actaully own one and don't live with one on a daily basis. Furthermore, beat up DJ-decks that come in for repair really arn't indicative of what the typical SL-1200 has to offer, those units have a hard life. Really, you used a lot of words just to say that the SL-1200 is a design that can be improved upon, it would have been much simpler to say that from the start and I don't disagree. My questions were not related to other Technics-series turntables and while those may provide a level of insight into the relative operation of similar turntables, they arn't the same, and you can only gleam so much.
   
  tl;dr I do agree that the design can be improved upon, but I respectfully disagree with how necessary those mods are, and the measurable level of improvement vs. cost that they actaully provide.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





greyson said:


> Well, i've used a lot of turntables as well, and i've owned and used a Technics SL-1210Mk2 as my sole turntable for several years, so while I do appretiate the apparent weight that your words carry, you don't actaully own one and don't live with one on a daily basis. Furthermore, beat up DJ-decks that come in for repair really arn't indicative of what the typical SL-1200 has to offer, those units have a hard life. Really, you used a lot of words just to say that the SL-1200 is a design that can be improved upon, it would have been much simpler to say that from the start and I don't disagree. My questions were not related to other Technics-series turntables and while those may provide a level of insight into the relative operation of similar turntables, they arn't the same, and you can only gleam so much.
> 
> tl;dr I do agree that the design can be improved upon, but I respectfully disagree with how necessary those mods are, and the measurable level of improvement vs. cost that they actaully provide.


 
  A turntable has advanced well beyond what was ever originally expected of it. The measurements of wow, flutter and rumble do tell the basic picture - if they not at least respectable, it makes no sense improving anything else.
   
  It is the acoustics of the turntable that is far harder to measure, qualify and/or quantify. No official standard available, one can use duplication of past methods by various sources to arrive at anything like comparable result. Most TT manufacturers, not only Technics, never actually made good sounding commercially available TTs. And I will say that for the SP10MK2 as well, despite being far more advanced design than 1210. 
   
  The most glaring defect 1210 has, along with countless other turntables, is the power transformer within the deck. It does not belong in the turntable - period. It was and is being used as cost cutting measure. Transformers vibrate and that is being picked up by the cartridge. Any hum, transmitted either as mechanical vibration or electro magnetic interference, will colour the sound. Once you heard it removed, there is no way back.
   
  And this is the first snowball one can start rolling atop snow covered mountain called 1210.
   
  Only fairly recently, say within last 15 years, have manufacturers started to realize the "acoustics" of the turntable in more down to earth priced designs. Project RPM4 may be basic belt driver, but it is not resonant structure as 1210 - either in this or some other models, platter is made from industrial waste like mixture of wood, textiles etc, pressed together and machined as non resonant platter. 1210 platter, even with its plastic/rubbery
  insert, rings in comparison badly and for far too long time to allow for the correct reproduction of signal recorded in the groove of the record being played. 
   
  Previously, turntables that achieved quiet enough platters have resorted to mass and more mass, being priced out of reach of majority. One turntable that can be regarded as milestone regarding "acoustics" is Townshend's Rock and its later variants - it has spawned a whole bunch of TTs that adressed more or less the same issues.
   
  And I did see DJ and pampered audiophile 1210s - depending on luck how well the bearings of the tonearm have been adjusted at the factory, it can be either to come on top.


----------



## ]eep

greyson said:


> Well, i've used a lot of turntables as well, and i've owned and used a Technics SL-1210Mk2 as my sole turntable for several years, so while I do appretiate the apparent weight that your words carry, you don't actaully own one and don't live with one on a daily basis. ...
> 
> Really, you used a lot of words just to say that the SL-1200 is a design that can be improved upon, it would have been much simpler to say that from the start and I don't disagree. ...
> 
> tl;dr I do agree that the design can be improved upon, but I respectfully disagree with how necessary those mods are, and the measurable level of improvement vs. cost that they actaully provide.



_appretiate the apparent weight that your words carry..._ Hmm, talk about polite insults. Somehow I tend to take opinions not very serious when people don't even bother or are plainly inable to write proper English even as their first language. (FYI: English is my third language.)
_you don't actaully own one and don't live with one on a daily basis_ Neither do I, and guess why? There probably is a reason for that. I know I don't want one even if I got one for free. 
_I do agree that the design can be improved upon, but I respectfully disagree with how necessary those mods are_ Well, lets turn the argument around: maybe you have never owned a proper turntable that would make those flaws apparent. I think Analogsurvivor has a lot more experience than you. Or me. And I think he is using so many words just to be polite and show to have a founded opinion. 
If the design of the 1200 were to be improved you would probably end up with a modern turntable from a different brand. 

This thread is called: show a picture of your turntable. Not; tell us why you hang on to your dogma's about the Technics 1200. So I suggest to stop bickering about them. Even if you are a fanboy. Please excuse my very direct reply. Sometimes it can be helpful to look into a glaring mirror.



What I came to say, (and again without picture because I didn't change TT): I bought new speakers (Genesis VI) and finally had them running as they should, aligned and balanced. For the first time I noticed how wonderfull my Koetse Urushi plays bass (and the rest). I played the last Björk album. Really mindblowing how clean, tight, deep and tunefull. No flapping subcones even when I tap the turntable. Just wonderfull music. :biggrin: Just .... WOW!


----------



## parbaked

Since you didn't post a picture:

  This is the only TT I could find that analogsurvivor hasn't "fully" tested.
  At least I don't think so...


----------



## Eee Pee

Ha ha!

Excellent!


----------



## shipsupt

Oh, the static she must be generating!


----------



## TheWuss

WOW and flutter.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> Since you didn't post a picture:
> 
> This is the only TT I could find that analogsurvivor hasn't "fully" tested.
> At least I don't think so...


 
  This picture is actually avatar by a member of another forum. It brings chuckle whenever I see it.
   
  Testing this kind of TTs is due to lack of any standardized objective criteria relegated to pure subjective impressions and can be judged by an individual on case by case basis, not applicable to greater number of specimens - which is the general idea behind sharing on forums.
   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBW-51xzZNE


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> This picture is actually avatar by a member of another forum. It brings chuckle whenever I see it.
> 
> Testing this kind of TTs is due to lack of any standardized objective criteria relegated to pure subjective impressions and can be judged by an individual on case by case basis, not applicable to greater number of specimens - which is the general idea behind sharing on forums.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBW-51xzZNE


 
  I was sure you'd at least get in there and adjust the VTA!


----------



## Eee Pee

I LOL'd
   
  Azuimuth is off by a mile!


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> I LOL'd
> 
> Azuimuth is off by a mile!


 
  Her azimuth is just fine.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Her azimuth is just fine.


 
   
   
  Quote: 





eee pee said:


> I LOL'd
> 
> Azuimuth is off by a mile!


 
  Exactly the kind of disagreement I had in mind. What is one person's delight can be another's
  nightmare - and vice versa.
   
  The goal of a turntable can be said to be as neutral reproduction of the signals recorded into a groove of the record as possible, hopefully giving sound indiscernible from the master (tape). No easy task, approached by few, among themselves often radically different designs. At least, the results have to and do tend to the common goal.
   
  Compared to the simple single goal of turntables, the "other TTs"  are incomparably more complex and do not tend to strive to the common goal, the paths they go by are as diverse as the life itself. Unless we want to branch into psychology, sociology etc - time to stop this amusing distraction in this thread right here.
   
  It can be pursued further within the confines of head-fi if desired, for starters http://www.head-fi.org/t/664938/worst-date-stories can be tried...


----------



## Eee Pee

You seem really bored, or angry.  Hence your long winded posts.  I like your posts, but relax a little my friend.
   
  Just saying...


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> You seem really bored, or angry.  Hence your long winded posts.  I like your posts, but relax a little my friend.
> 
> Just saying...


 
  Neither - or both. Frustrated that things do not go as fast as I would have liked as regards turntables. There are lots of requirements to be met, all difficult to achieve individually, let alone in one single design. It is crazy how ever smaller and ever harder to put aside problems keep creeping up once you reach certain level. But getting close nonetheless.
   
  It is more bearable if one is listening mainly or exclusively to vinyl. If you know the real thing, if you know how master recordings sound, if you record your own masters, then the deficiences of vinyl are just glaring at you. 
   
  Your advice is appreciated and will be implemented ASAP.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> If you know the real thing, if you know how master recordings sound, if you record your own masters, then the deficiences of vinyl are just glaring at you.


 
   
  That's why I listen to digital 95% of the time. It's not nearly as much fun to fetishize over though...


----------



## CrazyRay

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> That's why I listen to digital 95% of the time. It's not nearly as much fun to fetishize over though...


 

 I feel sorry for you guys.
 I listen to vinyl 80% of the time.
 You don't know what you're missing.


----------



## palmfish

crazyray said:


> You don't know what you're missing.




Yes, I do.

Surface noise, ticks and pops, abysmal S/N ratio, etc...


----------



## analogsurviver

Well, one can not turn blind eye to the advantages of good digital. There are areas analog will never be able to catch up. And vice versa, of course.
   
  But, music did not start say roughly 30 years ago. A good/bad/whatever analog recording is best kept in analog, as long the copy itself is not too worn etc. For that there will always be requirement for decent analog playback. 
   
  I would like to bring the most glaring defects of analog at least to acceptable level, where the error introduced is small enough to be possible to say it no longer does introduce meaningful sonic difference. 
   
  I never meant to say that I do not enjoy listening to vinyl. In fact, I prefer it most of the time. Yet on those ocassions it does introduce more than just slight alteration of what was intended, it is hard to accept it if one is familiar with the real thing. And those players that do approach the ideal tend to be very costly.
   
  Once upon a time, many full moons ago, Audio magazine from Germany issued the  most interesting test record - CD, LP and audio cassette with the same technical ( as far as applicable for different media ) and musical recordings. Original musical recordings were from digital masters.
   
  To say that the results were surprising would be gross understatement. It was wake up call par excellence.


----------



## bbophead

Listened to some good vinyl last night.  Finished Dead Can Dance live 3 LP recent release.  Very quiet surfaces, good sound (I saw them once about 10-12 years ago) but why they think it's cute to not put the contents on the label is a mystery to me.  In general the packaging is odd, maybe like them.  I'm sure it's a digital recording but had to be carefully mastered to analog which can make a differerence.
   




   
   
   
   
   
   
  Also listened to a half speed master of An American in Paris, Columbia/Sony recording of 1976.  Excellent.  I don't think digital sounds like this.  Too bad.  (pic is not of the half speed)


----------



## MorbidToaster

That DCD set is one of the best live recordings I've heard. Totally worth the small entry price.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> That DCD set is one of the best live recordings I've heard. Totally worth the small entry price.


 
  Correctamundo!  35 bucks for 3 quality vinyls.  Wish those kind of prices were more common for new LPs.


----------



## Eee Pee

Their other one, Toward The Within is practically magic.  
   
  Wind That Shakes The Barely gives me goosebumps sometimes.


----------



## CrazyRay

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> Yes, I do.
> 
> Surface noise, ticks and pops, abysmal S/N ratio, etc...


 
  My vinyl does not have surface noise, ticks or pops.
 I clean all of my vinyl with a VPI record cleaner.
 Makes my LP’s as noise free as a CD.


----------



## Skylab

Any format is only as good as someone bothers to make it, and all can be spectacular if you try hard enough


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> My vinyl does not have surface noise, ticks or pops.
> I clean all of my vinyl with a VPI record cleaner.
> Makes my LP’s as noise free as a CD.


 

 The best turntable in the world is probably good for maybe 80-85 dB S/N ratio. My Sansa Clip playing FLAC files beats that figure with a stick...
   
  Think about it - a direct to digital master from the original pressing is an EXACT duplicate of the master. Even your finest vinyl record is a pressing several generations removed from the master, and played back on a machine with different geometry, affected by temperature and humidity, exposed to vibration and speed errors. And yes, there is surface noise - impossible to avoid with a diamond riding in a plastic groove. It may be very, very quiet at normal volumes, but it's there.
   
  But honestly, I'm not putting vinyl down. I love my turntable and listening to my records. It has beauty and charm and involvement that no digital machine can match. I enjoy the ritual, the nostalgia, and even the sound. It's just a pleasure for me to sit in my chair and watch the needle ride in the groove while listening to an old album from my childhood. It would be like driving a classic Porsche 356 - beautiful car, fantastic sound, entertaining dynamics, wood and leather trim just right, slight musty oily smell inside...ahhh! But a Toyota Corolla will eat that Porsche for lunch in speed, handling, comfort, reliability and chassis integrity. One is an emotional delight and one is a technical masterpiece.


----------



## CrazyRay

Bla, bla, bla…


----------



## palmfish

Yeah, you're right. We wouldnt want to confuse the issue with actual facts...


----------



## RIQUE

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> The best turntable in the world is probably good for maybe 80-85 dB S/N ratio. My Sansa Clip playing FLAC files beats that figure with a stick...
> 
> Think about it - a direct to digital master from the original pressing is an EXACT duplicate of the master. Even your finest vinyl record is a pressing several generations removed from the master, and played back on a machine with different geometry, affected by temperature and humidity, exposed to vibration and speed errors. And yes, there is surface noise - impossible to avoid with a diamond riding in a plastic groove. It may be very, very quiet at normal volumes, but it's there.
> 
> But honestly, I'm not putting vinyl down. I love my turntable and listening to my records. It has beauty and charm and involvement that no digital machine can match. I enjoy the ritual, the nostalgia, and even the sound. It's just a pleasure for me to sit in my chair and watch the needle ride in the groove while listening to an old album from my childhood. It would be like driving a classic Porsche 356 - beautiful car, fantastic sound, entertaining dynamics, wood and leather trim just right, slight musty oily smell inside...ahhh! But a Toyota Corolla will eat that Porsche for lunch in speed, handling, comfort, reliability and chassis integrity. One is an emotional delight and one is a technical masterpiece.


 
   
  I hate to agree with, owning a vintage 1966 Porsche 912 I  know what you mean BUT Vinyl woops cd ass big time anyway.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





rique said:


> I hate to agree with, owning a vintage 1966 Porsche 912 I  know what you mean BUT Vinyl woops cd ass big time anyway.


 
   
  I'm a middle of the road kind of guy. I like my vinyl and my digital for different reasons. And my 993 is the best of both worlds...


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Their other one, Toward The Within is practically magic.
> 
> Wind That Shakes The Barely gives me goosebumps sometimes.


 
   
   
  Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> That DCD set is one of the best live recordings I've heard. Totally worth the small entry price.


 
   
   
  Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Listened to some good vinyl last night.  Finished Dead Can Dance live 3 LP recent release.  Very quiet surfaces, good sound (I saw them once about 10-12 years ago) but why they think it's cute to not put the contents on the label is a mystery to me.  In general the packaging is odd, maybe like them.  I'm sure it's a digital recording but had to be carefully mastered to analog which can make a differerence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Could not agree regarding Dead Can Dance vinyl releases more. They stand head and shoulders above almost any "recent" production. Their CD counterparts, compared to the vinyl, should convince even the hardest CD admirers of the superiority of vinyl under good circumstances. It is a pity such a display of superiority of vinyl is so rare these days.
   
  Half Speed Mastering is capable of sound exceeding the playback of master tape. I was in my teens when it was available new, it was a bit more expensive than normal releases, had to cross pond, to be imported into a country that had much different political system back then, etc - I only have a few HSM records, one of them being the original release of Frank Zappa's Joe's Garage on CBS, mastered by Stan Ricker, which received a rather lukewarm reception from Zappa himself, prompting him to later on do the digitally remastered version. I also got later digitally remastered pressing of "Garage" and only wish it could somehow be possible to cross the sweetness and delicacy of the analog HSM and dynamic range and extension, particularly in the bass, of the digital remastered release. 
   
  HSM, in order to be truly successful, requires extension of the cutting equipment down to at least 10 Hz, something very hard to achieve, particularly with tubed equipment. This was pointed out as the reason why Classic Records never issued any HSM during conversation with the owner of Classic Records in Milan, Italy, about 10 years ago.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





crazyray said:


> Bla, bla, bla…


 





 It looks like he forgot to clean his record!


----------



## palmfish

analogsurviver said:


> Half Speed Mastering is capable of sound exceeding the playback of master tape.




OK, you got me with this one. Are you saying that a vinyl copy of a master tape can sound better than the actual master tape? How is this possible?

BTW, i have never heard Dead Can Dance before and I am very pleased to be listening to the live album as I type this. I'm streaming it from MOG (wi-fi > Squeezebox Touch > TOSLINK > Asus Essence One > Sennheiser HD800) and it is really, really good! I will definitely be adding DCD to my collection - maybe even some vinyl.


----------



## Eee Pee

A Corolla!  C'mon man!  That's funny.  And not right.
   
  DCD... those two can sing.  He's a nice chesty sounding guy, and she is a great female vocalist.  Very good stuff.  Emotional.  
   
  Check out this Youtube video, cause it's good.
   
  "Toward the Within was *recorded in one take* in November 1993 "
   
  Great!!! album.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> OK, you got me with this one. Are you saying that a vinyl copy of a master tape can sound better than the actual master tape? How is this possible?
> 
> BTW, i have never heard Dead Can Dance before and I am very pleased to be listening to the live album as I type this. I'm streaming it from MOG (wi-fi > Squeezebox Touch > TOSLINK > Asus Essence One > Sennheiser HD800) and it is really, really good! I will definitely be adding DCD to my collection - maybe even some vinyl.


 
  Yes. The best answer you will get by reading the interview with Stan Ricker himself : http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/rickerinterview/
   
  I was one of the very first adopters of Asus Essence One, got it "used" on ebay before it was available in US  - and god rid of the thing ASAP. No idea if it was defective, early production run with teething troubles, or whatever - bottom line, the analog section of that thing is such a mess that it certainly undermines whatever goodies there are in its digital part. It sounds strained, veiled, constricts dynamic range, in short - lifeless. Typical result for the direct copying of the application notes ( with the minimum requirements ) by the IC manufacturers.
   
  A good DAC will sound much more natural. And another at least same increase in naturalness/life is available through vinyl - so you might as well skip the intermediate DAC part, at least as DCD are concerned. 
   
  As pointed earlier, LP releases of this calibre as DCD are unfortunately far and in between.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> A Corolla!  C'mon man!  That's funny.  And not right.
> 
> DCD... those two can sing.  He's a nice chesty sounding guy, and she is a great female vocalist.  Very good stuff.  Emotional.
> 
> ...


----------



## Destroysall

My apologies, wrong thread.


----------



## palmfish

analogsurviver said:


> Yes. The best answer you will get by reading the interview with Stan Ricker himself : http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/rickerinterview/
> 
> 
> I was one of the very first adopters of Asus Essence One, got it "used" on ebay before it was available in US  - and god rid of the thing ASAP. No idea if it was defective, early production run with teething troubles, or whatever - bottom line, the analog section of that thing is such a mess that it certainly undermines whatever goodies there are in its digital part. It sounds strained, veiled, constricts dynamic range, in short - lifeless. Typical result for the direct copying of the application notes ( with the minimum requirements ) by the IC manufacturers.
> ...




I guess theres a reason why yours was posted on eBay, huh? Ive compared my Asus to the Benchmark DAC1, Grace Audio M903, and Violectric V800/V200 and it holds up very well. The differences are so minute that they may simply be my imagination.

Anyways, this isnt the forum for an objective/subjective discussion so I'll leave my point where it is. I havent used my TT in a while and this discussion has sparked a craving to listen to some records, which I plan on doing tonight.


----------



## bbophead

Good idea about listening to vinyl tonight.
   
  Sometimes I try to analyze what's different about the experience.  In digital, you have music emerging from an unnatural black hole of silence, something that never happens in real life.  In analog, there is, under the best circumstances, some surface noise which I find much more realistic as a listening experience and maybe contributes to the superiority of the soundstage.  Lately, since my revived analog interest, new TT/cartridge replacing old, I've been listening more to my mini-monitors.  It's not because they sound better than my headphones, they don't by a long shot.  It's because I get a palpable soundstage with speakers and analog.  I get depth, width and height in just a regular room.  Turn the lights out and I'm at a concert.  2 cents.
   
  Oh yeah, the required pic:


----------



## OPR8R

Looking forward to getting back home to my TT after 3 weeks of house sitting. I took the digital side of my system with me, but not having access to vinyl has made me appreciate it more.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> I guess theres a reason why yours was posted on eBay, huh? Ive compared my Asus to the Benchmark DAC1, Grace Audio M903, and Violectric V800/V200 and it holds up very well. The differences are so minute that they may simply be my imagination.
> 
> Anyways, this isnt the forum for an objective/subjective discussion so I'll leave my point where it is. I havent used my TT in a while and this discussion has sparked a craving to listen to some records, which I plan on doing tonight.


 
  Interesting. "My" Essence One lost out at original owner's to Benchmark DAC1 by ??? ( lots...)  I use Pioneer PD D6J CD/SACD player, for CD via coax into heavily modified Technics SU-A60 preamp/DAC and this combo made mincemeat out of Esssence One. It was difference one could hear across the street. Considering I had high hopes for the Essence One, this was a very unpleasent surprise. That Technics, even in stock form, is one of the most dynamic 32/44.1/48 kHz DACs - at 18 (IN A WORD: EIGHTEEEN) bit. Pioneer PD D6J is no slouch in dynamics department, yet it can not hold candle to the SU-A60. Very few can. Here owner and service manuals you can download :http://www.hifiengine.com/library/technics/su-a60.shtml
  SU-A60 is also a very capable phono and line stage, with GREAT sounding tone controls. Please note these comments apply if properly modified only - otherwise it can be a very nervous sounding unit in wrong system.  Check the owner manual, it can be hooked up in various ways, bypassing most of the line level if desired, it has external processor loop ( equalizer and other processors if required ). It is a rare unit and true sleeper.
   
  I am not familiar with Volectric at all, but did consider Grace, although I have never seen it or heard yet. It seems to be a very good unit, not terribly expensive for the features and quality offered. As I require DSD capable DAC in the first place, I will wait till something comparable comes along. Being a Stax Lambda Pro and AKG K 1000 user, conventional headphone amps are also of little interest to me - so a DSD DAC minus hp preamp is a more reasonable choice in my case. For PCM and more conventional HPs, Grace would be on top of my list.
   
  Enjoy your listening to vinyl, and given the time, please do go through Ricker interview. Loads of info, IIRC half speed mastering is covered in Part 2.
   
  After hiatus from CD for almost half a year, as I write this, listening to the CD derived from the DSD128 master I recorded the previous Wednesday - uverture from Verdi's La forza del destino, Delius' Walk to the Paradise Garden, among other works. Great for CD, yet compared to DSD master ...


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Good idea about listening to vinyl tonight.
> 
> Sometimes I try to analyze what's different about the experience.  In digital, you have music emerging from an unnatural black hole of silence, something that never happens in real life.  In analog, there is, under the best circumstances, some surface noise which I find much more realistic as a listening experience and maybe contributes to the superiority of the soundstage.  Lately, since my revived analog interest, new TT/cartridge replacing old, I've been listening more to my mini-monitors.  It's not because they sound better than my headphones, they don't by a long shot.  It's because I get a palpable soundstage with speakers and analog.  I get depth, width and height in just a regular room.  Turn the lights out and I'm at a concert.  2 cents.
> 
> Oh yeah, the required pic:


 
  Great description of analog vs digital, cans vs speakers! 
   
  Which Sacre is in the picture?


----------



## palmfish

analogsurviver said:


> Interesting. "My" Essence One lost out at original owner's to Benchmark DAC1 by ??? ( lots...)  I use Pioneer PD D6J CD/SACD player, for CD via coax into heavily modified Technics SU-A60 preamp/DAC and this combo made mincemeat out of Esssence One. It was difference one could hear across the street. Considering I had high hopes for the Essence One, this was a very unpleasent surprise. That Technics, even in stock form, is one of the most dynamic 32/44.1/48 kHz DACs - at 18 (IN A WORD: EIGHTEEEN) bit. Pioneer PD D6J is no slouch in dynamics department, yet it can not hold candle to the SU-A60. Very few can.




Funny, I sold my DAC1 and kept the Essence One...

Personally, I dont want my DAC to have dynamics - actually, I dont want it to have anything. It should just turn numbers into electricity AFAIC.

Theres no magic or emotion in audio equipment for me. It's all about ohms law.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> Funny, I sold my DAC1 and kept the Essence One...
> 
> Personally, I dont want my DAC to have dynamics - actually, I dont want it to have anything. It should just turn numbers into electricity AFAIC.
> 
> Theres no magic or emotion in audio equipment for me. It's all about ohms law.


 
  Funny indeed - exactly opposite experience.
   
  Regarding dynamics in (CD) DACs - I used to record a lot directly to CD-R and Technics unit mentioned was the only thing that approached the sound heard during recording say two hours after returning home and checking the recordings. Any audio piece of gear is much more likely to be diminishing the dynamic range, not expanding it. Remember, this is comment after making live recording, not listening to (tamed down) commercial release.
   
  Ohm's law rules just fine - output impedance of SU-A60 is 4 ohm, far lower than most ( Essence One included ). Weiss unit betters this by four times at X0 times the price. ( NOT the only difference, I know ...) Both turn into mush if connected through conventional (high(er)) output impedance preamp. That is why Weiss always sounds best directly into power amp. The first thing to suffer is the dynamic range - most people have never experienced it so uncompressed and it may well sound too raw and rough to some ears. Listening to a well played piano live will tell you which is right - in few bars.
   
  I too try to be as rational as possible. Yet, while recording, every now and then all things click together - the acoustics of the venue, the mic positioning, the performance of musicians, the reaction of the audience, the performance of the recording chain - they all create much larger whole than the sum of the parts. Music can not be entirely rational experience - there will always be some magic and emotion involved, else music reading computers would have replaced the musicians long ago...
   
  And squeezing all of the above into an analog disc and playing it back without too much compromise is my ultimate goal. You may well imagine it is no easy task. Sometimes, the desire to have achieved this at least "yesterday" , if not years or decades ago, gets the better of me.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Funny indeed - exactly opposite experience.
> 
> Regarding dynamics in (CD) DACs - I used to record a lot directly to CD-R and Technics unit mentioned was the only thing that approached the sound heard during recording say two hours after returning home and checking the recordings. Any audio piece of gear is much more likely to be diminishing the dynamic range, not expanding it. Remember, this is comment after making live recording, not listening to (tamed down) commercial release.
> 
> ...


 

 The ability to remember nuances in sound is impossible after two minutes, let alone two hours. Plus, during the recording, you are experiencing the acoustics of the studio - something that cannot be reproduced anywhere else.
   
  Where did you learn the output impedance of the Essence One? As far as I know, it has not been published. However, looking at the spec sheet (LME49720 is rated at 0.001 ohm), it should be a fraction of one ohm. And of course you know that the output impedance of a preamp is irrelevent when it is feeding line level to a power amp. The only place in the chain where output impedance matters is at the speaker terminal/headphone jack.
   
  Your comments on the recording process are well stated. Acoustics, microphones, performance, etc. are by far the most important things in the chain. They determine the sound, the emotion of the recording. Next in importance is the headphones or speakers/listening room. Finally, the electronics in between - far, far less influence on the sonics of the entire chain. That's why I don't sweat the small stuff (cables, amps, DACs, etc.) As long as they are of good design and commit no errors, the performance comes through just fine.
   
  "Squeezing it into an analog disc and playing it back" is a worthy goal. A valid, challenging, and enjoyable pursuit and passion. Nothing wrong with that - I enjoy it too


----------



## bbophead

> Which Sacre is in the picture?


 
  It's the new re-issue by Sony of Bernstein/NYPO in 1958.  Beautiful gatefold with extra notes from the contra bassoonist who was there(!) and a recording in stereo before engineers let the technology lead them astray.  You can buy it several places, this one came from archivmusic.  Surfaces are very quiet (180 gram) and album notes say it was mastered from the original analog tapes(!).


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> The ability to remember nuances in sound is impossible after two minutes, let alone two hours. Plus, during the recording, you are experiencing the acoustics of the studio - something that cannot be reproduced anywhere else.
> 
> The output impedance of the Essence One has not been published, but judging by the opamps and feedback circuit used (standard TI amplifier spec), it should be less than one ohm. And of course you know that the output impedance of a preamp is irrelevent when it is feeding line level to a power amp. The only place in the chain where output impedance matters is where the speaker/headphone cable meets the amp.
> 
> ...


 
  I never record in a studio - always on location, be it hall, church, town square - whatever.
   
  I try to achieve as much resemblance in sound between listening live ( without any gear at all ) and signal in IEM headphones. While actually recording, I always monitor the recording with IEMs - the same can be used at home, making any electronics comparison possible. I disagree regarding output impedance of a preamp feeding power amp. Although far less critical than output impedance of headphone output, it is audible.
  I agree sonic memory is short - but long enough to hear the relatively large difference in the dynamic range as described. Using speakers is far less precise, because of acoustics of the room. They do, however, provide spatial positioning, particularly depth - something in most cases next to impossible to hear with headphones when recording is intended to be listened primarily on speakers. In such cases, I carry monitor speakers on location, preferably setting them up in an adjacent acoustic space to say  a church, where a recording is taking place. VERY hard to set the speakers up correctly in always too limited amount of time available.
   
  I agree that the electronics are the least important in the whole chain. Yet, once everything else is optimized, they do provide decisive edge. But fail to position mics properly - everything goes down the drain. A well placed mic into a Sony WMD6(C) casette recorder would wipe the floor with improperly positioned mic feeding theorethically perfect yet non existing recorder.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> It's the new re-issue by Sony of Bernstein/NYPO in 1958.  Beautiful gatefold with extra notes from the contra bassoonist who was there(!) and a recording in stereo before engineers let the technology lead them astray.  You can buy it several places, this one came from archivmusic.  Surfaces are very quiet (180 gram) and album notes say it was mastered from the original analog tapes(!).


 
  Thank you for the reply. Seems like it would be Sacre-lige not to get it. I agree the engineers let the technology to lead them astray quite soon after - 
  I am subscribed to some pro recording gear magazines - mainly to see what must be avoided at all costs...
   
  The liner notes by the musicians that were playing on these vintage recordings are the most direct link to the times past - and are to be cherished.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> I never record in a studio - always on location, be it hall, church, town square - whatever.
> 
> I try to achieve as much resemblance in sound between listening live ( without any gear at all ) and signal in IEM headphones. While actually recording, I always monitor the recording with IEMs - the same can be used at home, making any electronics comparison possible. I disagree regarding output impedance of a preamp feeding power amp. Although far less critical than output impedance of headphone output, it is audible.
> I agree sonic memory is short - but long enough to hear the relatively large difference in the dynamic range as described. Using speakers is far less precise, because of acoustics of the room. They do, however, provide spatial positioning, particularly depth - something in most cases next to impossible to hear with headphones when recording is intended to be listened primarily on speakers. In such cases, I carry monitor speakers on location, preferably setting them up in an adjacent acoustic space to say  a church, where a recording is taking place. VERY hard to set the speakers up correctly in always too limited amount of time available.
> ...


 
   
  I have no experience with recording but what you do sounds very cool. Some of my favorite recordings are direct to master (unmixed) live performances. Mapleshade, Chesky, etc. are a couple of examples. I also have a large collection of the RCA Living Stereo SACD releases from a few years ago (my father had many of the original vinyl versions). The ambience and spacial cues are vastly superior to the majority of mass market commercial releases. I wish more studios and labels put the kind of care into their recordings that you do.
   
  OK, I should clarify the preamp output impedance comment. In theory, if your preamp output impedance is very high and your amplifier input impedance is very low, then it is theoreticlly possible for it to be audible. On the other hand, most amplifiers are rated at a minimum of 10K ohms input impedance and so a preamp would have to have a freakishly high output impedance to cause an audible change in frequency response.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> I have no experience with recording but what you do sounds very cool. Some of my favorite recordings are direct to master (unmixed) live performances. Mapleshade, Chesky, etc. are a couple of examples. I also have a large collection of the RCA Living Stereo SACD releases from a few years ago (my father had many of the original vinyl versions). The ambience and spacial cues are vastly superior to the majority of mass market commercial releases. I wish more studios and labels put the kind of care into their recordings that you do.
> 
> OK, I should clarify the preamp output impedance comment. In theory, if your preamp output impedance is very high and your amplifier input impedance is very low, then it is theoreticlly possible for it to be audible. On the other hand, most amplifiers are rated at a minimum of 10K ohms input impedance and so a preamp would have to have a freakishly high output impedance to cause an audible change in frequency response.


 
  Ultimately, it boils down to the source having as low output impedance compared to the input of the next stage - as much as possible. From the phono cartridge to the power amp. In either case, frequency response anomalies start when freakishly high impedance is feeding relatively low input impedance of the next stage. Dynamic compression starts at much lower impedance discrepancies, where even measurements can show next to zero or zero frequency response difference .
   
  I am familiar with Benz MC carts - as good as Benz Micro LP S MR is ( coil impedance approx 30 ohms ), it can never pack a wallop of Benz Micro TR MR ( coil impedance 1 ohm, in word one ohm ). Back in the day, there were Ruby models with 100 ohms, which were soooo smooooth to barely carry resemblance to any real dynamic range at all. Long forgotten, for a good reason.


----------



## palmfish

analogsurviver said:


> Ultimately, it boils down to the source having as low output impedance compared to the input of the next stage - as much as possible. From the phono cartridge to the power amp. In either case, frequency response anomalies start when freakishly high impedance is feeding relatively low input impedance of the next stage. Dynamic compression starts at much lower impedance discrepancies, where even measurements can show next to zero or zero frequency response difference .
> 
> I am familiar with Benz MC carts - as good as Benz Micro LP S MR is ( coil impedance approx 30 ohms ), it can never pack a wallop of Benz Micro TR MR ( coil impedance 1 ohm, in word one ohm ). Back in the day, there were Ruby models with 100 ohms, which were soooo smooooth to barely carry resemblance to any real dynamic range at all. Long forgotten, for a good reason.




BTW, you never said.... What is the output impedance of the Essence One? I assume it is 0.002 ohms (two LME49720 opamps in parallel) but I have not found any reports to confirm that specification.

Thanks!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> BTW, you never said.... What is the output impedance of the Essence One? I assume it is 0.002 ohms (two LME49720 opamps in parallel) but I have not found any reports to confirm that specification.
> 
> Thanks!


 
  No idea - should have measured it back then. And I do not remember seeing LME49720s in mine - but I might be wrong. I will try to find that spec, but it may take a while - usually hidden in some large review.
   
  Using very similar LMEs in my take on the SU A60.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Interesting. "My" Essence One lost out at original owner's to Benchmark DAC1 by ??? ( lots...)  I use Pioneer PD D6J CD/SACD player, for CD via coax into heavily modified Technics SU-A60 preamp/DAC and this combo made mincemeat out of Esssence One. It was difference one could hear across the street. Considering I had high hopes for the Essence One, this was a very unpleasent surprise.


 
   
  Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Ohm's law rules just fine - output impedance of SU-A60 is 4 ohm, far lower than most ( Essence One included ).


 
   
  Quote: 





palmfish said:


> BTW, you never said.... What is the output impedance of the Essence One?


 
   
  Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> No idea - should have measured it back then.


 
   
  I know this is straying off topic so I won't belabor the point, but as a satisfied owner of an Essence One, I feel I should straighten the record - so to speak.
   
  Since you didn't keep your Essence One, you probably don't know that early production versions had a few bugs that were subsequently corrected by Asus. RMA's were issued and new units were sent to owners suffering from a firmware glitch that caused noise in some units and a channel imbalance present in all units with the Alps B10K volume pot. The channel imbalance was measured as high as 2dB, which would certainly cause a noticeable sound quality degredation to someone as experienced as you are. If you had purchased your Essence One from Asus instead of eBay, you probably would have had a very different opinion of the Essence One.
   
  As for the Essence One output impedance question, I think it is misleading when someone states something as a fact without actually having any basis in fact. You mentioned that Asus used a generic spec amp for the headphone portion of the Essence One, and that is most certainly true (and smart). But even a most cursory look at the Essence One shows a two-channel negative feedback circuit with two TI opamps as buffers and two as amplifiers. Obviously, the purpose of using this circuit design is to achieve a near-zero output impedance.
   
  I have owned and used a good number of headphone amplifiers and DACs over the years, and I can confidently say that the Essence One is a well designed, high performance DAC/headamp/preamp that compares very well against units costing 3, 4 or 5 times more (Benchmark, Grace, Burson, etc.). Maybe you should give it another chance - I think you would be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## MrQ

Preferences

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----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> I know this is straying off topic so I won't belabor the point, but as a satisfied owner of an Essence One, I feel I should straighten the record - so to speak.
> 
> Since you didn't keep your Essence One, you probably don't know that early production versions had a few bugs that were subsequently corrected by Asus. RMA's were issued and new units were sent to owners suffering from a firmware glitch that caused noise in some units and a channel imbalance present in all units with the Alps B10K volume pot. The channel imbalance was measured as high as 2dB, which would certainly cause a noticeable sound quality degredation to someone as experienced as you are. If you had purchased your Essence One from Asus instead of eBay, you probably would have had a very different opinion of the Essence One.
> 
> ...


 
  Good point(s). But there is an important BUT.
   
  There is one design decision used by Asus that can not be corrected for within the present box volume, regardless of what firmware and potentiometers are doing - or entire digital front end for that matter.. Quite a few 220 uF electrolytic capacitors in analog signal path. Most one can do is to shunt them with film type(s) that can still be tucked within the box so that it will close. No way they can be replaced by entirely film types, the film caps  of the total value required alone would probably take more volume than entire stock contents. Those electrolytics are enough to kill the sonics of any amp - the real dynamic range of electrolytics is about 40 or so dB ( or down to  about 1 % ),  everything below approx that level is "street/lane numbers" instead of the correct signal coming from the front end. The lower the amplitude of the signal, the worse performance of the electrolytic caps. For details, please read reprint from 1980 Audio Magazine http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/pickcap.htm. All those 220 uF caps to be replaced with film types can not be fitted into existing enclosure - and even if they could somehow fit within the box, the price would have been prohibitive. Quite simply, too expensive design if one wants to use parts that allow in practice what Asus/Ti is promising on paper.  
   
  It is a vicious circle - in order to have good performance in midrange/treble, sometimes compromises in low frequency extension ( lower capacitance value of otherwise high quality cap = less expensive capacitor ) or output impedance has to be made in real world designs. 220 uF electrolytic cap costs next to nothing, film type of this value and appropriate voltage and other characteristics will burn a sizeable hole in anyone's pocket. At present, 47 uF is about the end of the road in film caps that do not cost an arm and a leg and are not the size of the hand granade. Designs that can get by with the use of capacitor values that can still be realistically employed in film are therefore to be preferred.
   
  Problem - this has to be scrupolously adhered to from input to the output - for each and every capacitor that is remotely employed for audio signal(s). It is not one component in the system ( preamp, powew amp etc ) done right that will do the trick - it is every electrical component within that preamp etc that has to be of high enough quality. Omit one single capacitor and a significant portion of the potential of everything else you have done will not be fully realized. Here tubes with its generally higher impedances have an advantage over semiconductors - they can use lower value capacitors of higher quality, if capacitor cost is fixed for both. Most of the dreaded so called "transistor sound" should in fact be called "capacitor sound". The reason why the use of quality caps is not popular is simple - cost. Even in boxes in five figure price range per box. To make matters worse, advertising department would not have one single measurable spec to justify manyfold price increase - within competitive world, next to suicide. Because most measurements are essentiall static and do not cover the dynamic range that can fluctuate wildly in music. Open any Hewlett Packard or Tektronix measuring equipment - you will hardly be able to see a film capacitor in there. A bit hard to correctly measure something that has better performance than the measuring equipment to begin with...
   
  One slogan from electronics fair that made a lasting impression on me was :
   
*Active in Passives*
   
  Unbelievably true - but unfortunately equally unbelievably expensive. There are audio designs completely eschewing capacitors - at yet substantially higher prices. I try to avoid audition - because I know there is no way I could reasonably afford such equipment. 
   
  Semiconductors have made much more progress than capacitors - and performance vs cost has increased by really much. Compared to this increase, what has been achieved in capacitors in say last 30 years is relatively little. But designers 30 years ago just did not have the componentry available now - and yet there were designs that were sporting by default best capacitors available at the time, indicating their designers were aware where true problem lies. No denying they were  expensive - but not that much as some present day designs selling for comparatively more yet using worse components.


----------



## Eee Pee

http://www.rega.co.uk/downloads/RP40%20ANNIVERSARY.pdf


----------



## Eee Pee

Oh and I just found this.
   
   
 [size=2.8em]  [/size]
[size=2.8em] Rega Naiad – sneak peek at the £30,000 turntable[/size]


----------



## jackskelly

That's goregous Eee Pee, what kind of bearings does that TT use? I know the debate between digital and analog audio will go on for a very long time. I have season tickets to the Houston Symphony because I do love to hear the live performance itself more than anything else, no recording technology will ever trump the live performance, but a great system will allow you to listen to a live performance many times, as many times as you wish, at very close to the original quality, whenever you wish, in your own home.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





jackskelly said:


> That's goregous Eee Pee, what kind of bearings does that TT use? I know the debate between digital and analog audio will go on for a very long time. I have season tickets to the Houston Symphony because I do love to hear the live performance itself more than anything else, no recording technology will ever trump the live performance, but a great system will allow you to listen to a live performance many times, as many times as you wish, at very close to the original quality, whenever you wish, in your own home.


 
  Loved singing in the HSO Chorus.  Daphnis and Chloe chorus right in back of the orchestra with Eschenbach?  Nothing like it.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





> Naiad will feature a world first in hub bearing design with a spindle and bearing housing manufactured from Zirconia.


----------



## jackskelly

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Loved singing in the HSO Chorus.  Daphnis and Chloe chorus right in back of the orchestra with Eschenbach?  Nothing like it.


 
  That would have been great to see. I was a small child when I saw Eschenbach conducting the HSO, so I don't remember much of that. I've really enjoyed the recent era with Hans Graf, he's recently left though, and we have a new very young conductor, Andres Orozco-Estrada. It will be quite fascinating to see how he does this coming season.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Good point(s). But there is an important BUT.
> 
> There is one design decision used by Asus that can not be corrected for within the present box volume, regardless of what firmware and potentiometers are doing - or entire digital front end for that matter.. Quite a few 220 uF electrolytic capacitors in analog signal path...


 
   
  OK, I get it. The Essence One sounds like crap because it is poorly designed with bad capacitors. You win! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Let's get back to the turntables...


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Pics.  Anytime.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Pics.  Anytime.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> OK, I get it. The Essence One sounds like crap because it is poorly designed with bad capacitors. You win!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  It is not about winning - I wanted to present a case where one single decision doomed otherwise probably wonderful product. If that is not the perfect candidate for Lampizator type mods, then I do not know what is.
   
  The mere fact that a person is on this thread means he/she does place SQ high enough to bother with all the technicalities. be it a turntable or DAC -
  I guess we all strive to get to listen to magnificent performances mentioned just a few posts back - be it live or from recordings.
   
  Although I can not play an instrument or sing, I menaged to start making recordings. Met many interesting musicians, from elementary school to the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra - the most satisfying compensation for all the technical work that had to be done prior the recordings were at the level desired.


----------



## Redcarmoose

eee pee said:


> A Corolla!  C'mon man!  That's funny.  And not right.
> 
> DCD... those two can sing.  He's a nice chesty sounding guy, and she is a great female vocalist.  Very good stuff.  Emotional.
> 
> ...





Dead Can Dance 's 1987 release "Within The Realm Of A Dying Son" is by far one of my favorite recordings. I own it as an original 1st pressing import on Cd also the remastered Cd from 2009 plus an original import record from the day.

Listening to the vinyl on AKG 701s makes the vocals come alive and makes me feel guilty for ever saying anything bad about the k701s.


For what ever reason though it sounds better on vinyl than Cd. I guess I gotta try harder with my CD set-up.


This album is one of the few things that still gives me spine tingles anymore.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Nice.  Thanks.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> Dead Can Dance 's 1987 release "Within The Realm Of A Dying Son" is by far one of my favorite recordings. I own it as an original 1st pressing import on Cd also the remastered Cd from 2009 plus an original import record from the day.
> 
> Listening to the vinyl on AKG 701s makes the vocals come alive and makes me feel guilty for ever saying anything bad about the k701s.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Watching the video now - I was hooked the moment the hammered dulcimer started. DCD might be my new favorite group - wonderful synergistic relationship they have. Her Eastern influence and his Western with a Celtic meeting in the middle.
   
  Thank you Eee Pee and Redcarmoose!
   
  EDIT: Just ordered "Toward the Within" and "Within the Realm of the Dying Sun" on CD. Debating the LP "In Concert" but $60 is a tough nut to swallow.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> Watching the video now - I was hooked the moment the hammered dulcimer started. DCD might be my new favorite group - wonderful synergistic relationship they have. Her Eastern influence and his Western with a Celtic meeting in the middle.
> 
> Thank you Eee Pee and Redcarmoose!
> 
> EDIT: Just ordered "Toward the Within" and "Within the Realm of the Dying Sun" on CD. Debating the LP "In Concert" but $60 is a tough nut to swallow.


 
  I chuckled when checking the prices for DCD (used) vinyl on ebay. Got my DCD LPs about when they were current/new in store - and had normal prices. Triple LP + download at $ 60 is reasonable - if you do not want to pay substantially more after it sells out, better get it now.
   
  I used DCD music in another thread before, where it too found a few new followers.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  No way.  $35 in Austin at a not so cheap record store.  I'll bet Seattle will do that.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> No way.  $35 in Austin at a not so cheap record store.  I'll bet Seattle will do that.


 
   
  Lots of brick and mortar record stores here. Good idea - I'll go shopping...


----------



## analogsurviver

Free MP3 download from In Concert : http://www.deadcandance.com/main/further-european-shows-announced/ .
   
  I was mighty dissapointed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the announced concert in my town on 8th of June this year got cancelled.  DCD music is tailor made for the Krizanke, summer auditorium by architect Joze Plecnik - or vice versa.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> Thank you Eee Pee and Redcarmoose!


 
   




  Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Free MP3 download from In Concert : http://www.deadcandance.com/main/further-european-shows-announced/ .


 
  And


----------



## MorbidToaster

You can still get all the Mofi DCD LPs, too. Excellent stuff. I still need Spiritchaser Mofi.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> You can still get all the Mofi DCD LPs, too. Excellent stuff. I still need Spiritchaser Mofi.


 
  Any chance you have compared original label 4AD and Mofi pressings of the same album?


----------



## analogsurviver

Here the first hand report by the member of the original DCD: http://www.unitedhomeaudio.com/dead_can_dance_sacdcd_mfsl.htm
   
  Quite an interesting story, typical of the musical world and recording labels.


----------



## Eee Pee

I just remembered I have Towards The Within on SACD from MoFi!  Thanks for reminding me.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Any chance you have compared original label 4AD and Mofi pressings of the same album?


 
  Did not quote myself yet, but here is what I found online regarding 4AD and MFSL pressings and their SQ - may online translators not detract too much:
http://www.analog-forum.de/wbboard/board15-musik/board4-musik-allgemein/76553-dead-can-dance-into-the-labyrinth-2lp-original-4ad-vs-mfsl-silver-label/


----------



## Redcarmoose

I purchased 2008's Aion and WTROADS both on SACD. Still never heard the SACD tracks as I don't have a player. The original release actually sounded better than SACD red-book tracks? Just sounded like they actually increased the bass?


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> I purchased 2008's Aion and WTROADS both on SACD. Still never heard the SACD tracks as I don't have a player. The original release actually sounded better than SACD red-book tracks? Just sounded like they actually increased the bass?


 
  Since my last post I discovered also some discussion regarding SQ of original 4AD and MFSL reissues, both SACD and later LP, on Steve Hoffmann forum. And in that German link they basically say that MFSL did not have acess to the master tapes (in most cases digital) and that LP is actually very similar if not the same mastering as for SACD. I guess I will stick with my original 4AD pressings.
   
  The most analogue-ish sounding of digital to date is DSD. Data can be ripped off SACD ( basically DSD64 or DSD at 2.8 MHz ) and in general it will sound better from your computer feeding a DSD capable DAC than using SACD player. Of the current DSD DACs, TEAC UD 501 appears to be the best bang for the buck. Chek the thread here on head-fi. It is also one of the few DACs currently capable of DXD audio, 384 kHz sampling at 24 (32) bit resolution.
   
  There are ever more DSD downloads, but the bulk of DSD at the present is available through ripping SACDs. Up to the advent of availability of DSD128
  capable recorders ( DSD at 5,6 MHz ),there was in my opinion no digital capable of quality high enough to consider digitalization of analog recorded LPs. Trouble is, once you want to make a really good transfer, ills and quirks of analog start to glare at you far more than merely listening to it.
   
  The peskiest of them all is off center pressing of the vinyl records ...


----------



## Eee Pee

This is the PINNACLE of this album for me.  No idea what she is saying, but it crushes me every time.
   




   
   
   
   
  I just found my record copy of it, and then this song came on, and once again, it got me, so I shared.
   
  For the picture thread's sake, here it is in action.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> This is the PINNACLE of this album for me.  No idea what she is saying, but it crushes me every time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I know of no other singer, female or male, capable of so precisely controlling vibrato. It is one of THE "signals" to use to demonstrate the superiority of analog - despite the fact that vast majority of DCD masters are digital. Yet, almost always, I feel at least somewhat guilty for abusing such great music for audio purposes.
   
  There are emotions that can not be expressed in words - she might be singing this in Noexistiland language, and still have zero trouble bringing the message across. Another higlight of her singing for me works on another, much more down to earth level : The Wind That Shakes the Barley.
   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2-2lJnFM1c
   
  (Another excuse not to post a photo - I hardly ever listen to DCD with enough light to allow taking a photo without a flash ...)


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I think she calls it a "metalanguage".  Just ordered a couple of vinyls from amazon.  Their album covers aren't too shabby, either.
   
   




   




   


​


----------



## palmfish

I just ordered "In Concert" in vinyl from Best buy online. I went to a couple of record stores but neither had it in the store. Best Buy had it for $35 - but it's back-ordered two weeks. No hurry...


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> I just ordered "In Concert" in vinyl from Best buy online. I went to a couple of record stores but neither had it in the store. Best Buy had it for $35 - but it's back-ordered two weeks. No hurry...


 
  Maybe you'll have better luck than me.  I ordered it from amazon.  After two weeks, they apologized and I said I'd keep waiting.  Another four weeks went by and then I cancelled because I saw it at Waterloo Records in Austin for about that price.


----------



## palmfish

Not what I wanted to hear Bebop... 

Unfortunately, most of the record stores up here sell mostly used records with a few new albums mixed in. Like looking for a needle in a haystack.

I'll give it a few weeks.


----------



## MorbidToaster

palmfish said:


> Not what I wanted to hear Bebop...
> 
> Unfortunately, most of the record stores up here sell mostly used records with a few new albums mixed in. Like looking for a needle in a haystack.
> 
> I'll give it a few weeks.




I've ordered multiple 'back ordered' LPs from BB online and they have always delivered within estimated times. Surprisingly good experiences.


----------



## Oregonian

The Yamaha - P520 from 1983.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





oregonian said:


> The Yamaha - P520 from 1983.


 
  Very nice retro.  Bet it sounds good.


----------



## Eee Pee

See VPI's newest?
   
  http://www.analogplanet.com/category/capital-audiofest-2013


----------



## Eee Pee

200 pounds of slate!  $53k idler table.  Crazy.
   

   
   

   
   
   

   
   
   
   
   
  http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/07/29/caf-2013-most-impressive-product-saskia-ii-turntable/#more-6444


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> I just ordered "In Concert" in vinyl from Best buy online. I went to a couple of record stores but neither had it in the store. Best Buy had it for $35 - but it's back-ordered two weeks. No hurry...


 
   
   
   
  Now that I've bought it, I'll share.
   
  http://www.elusivedisc.com/THE-DEAD-CAN-DANCE-IN-CONCERT-180g-3LP/productinfo/UNILP39391/


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Now that I've bought it, I'll share.
> 
> http://www.elusivedisc.com/THE-DEAD-CAN-DANCE-IN-CONCERT-180g-3LP/productinfo/UNILP39391/


 
   
  Now that I've cancelled my Best Buy back-order and re-ordered it, I'll share... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  http://www.soundstagedirect.com/dead-can-dance-in-concert-vinyl-records.shtml


----------



## Eee Pee

You dog, you!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Too bad it didn't quite hit the free shipping...
   
  And I bought VPI vacuum tube, which woulda got me there..  Could have saved me about $15 bucks.  Oh well!
   
  I can't wait to hear Sanvean!


----------



## palmfish

I know ! I tried for 15 minutes to find something I just had to have to push me over, but alas I gave up and spent $6 on shipping. Oh well... 

I have actually bought from elusivedisc before - I dont know why I didnt think of them. The good news is we both got it for considerably less than the $60 that most are selling it for!


----------



## Eee Pee

Musicdirect and Elusivedisc take a back seat to Amazon, mostly cause of shipping costs, but I'm considering Soundstagedirect now.  But I really like Amazon's packaging, that certified frustration free stuff.  Works perfect.  Then they throw the things in a huge box with all those airbags.  Box comes beat, but the record packaging is always perfect.


----------



## palmfish

I buy most of my things from Amazon - audio and other things. 2-day Prime shipping can't be beat. Even with sales tax I often pay, it's still worth it.


----------



## MorbidToaster

eee pee said:


> Musicdirect and Elusivedisc take a back seat to Amazon, mostly cause of shipping costs, but I'm considering Soundstagedirect now.  But I really like Amazon's packaging, that certified frustration free stuff.  Works perfect.  Then they throw the things in a huge box with all those airbags.  Box comes beat, but the record packaging is always perfect.




Amazon's shipping boxes are garbage, IMO. I've got tons of seam splits from them in those. All my stuff from ED has been pristine.


----------



## Mambosenior

So happy to know that some here are DCD fans. Been one for years and was lucky to have bought the SACD box, once-upon-a-time available. Some single SACD titles, I believe, can still be purchased. Spectacular sound!

How well they manage to use reverb on their recordings without sounding ridiculous. The musicianship of all in the group is exemplary, of course.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Amazon's shipping boxes are garbage, IMO. I've got tons of seam splits from them in those. All my stuff from ED has been pristine.


 
  Sorry to hear that.  I've not once had a problem and have bought dozens of records from them. Maybe it's a location thing.  I get em fast, too.


----------



## Silent One

So far, I've been very satisfied with vinyl via SoundStageDirect.


----------



## shipsupt

I've been hung out to dry with Amazon buying limited quantity stuff.  Occasionally they can't fulfill it and eventually you get an email saying they are out of stock.  Otherwise, brilliant!


----------



## dosley01

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Amazon's shipping boxes are garbage, IMO. I've got tons of seam splits from them in those. All my stuff from ED has been pristine.


 

 The trick with Amazon is to always order more than one LP so that they put it in a second box.  That being said, I always try to order from ED, SSD or MD because their shipping is just about bullet proof and Amazon's pricing can be out of sight on anything but mass market recordings.
   
  And to keep this thread on track, a little TT / Tube pic:


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





dosley01 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I like the looks of that Marantz and Rogue.  Good looking system.


----------



## dosley01

VPI Classic will be next, then I'll have a full "Made in USA" system except for the power tubes and interconnects.


----------



## Eee Pee

I have one of those.  VPI Traveler, Grado Sonata1, Soundsmith MMP3 phono, Signal IC, DNA Sonett.  Then Sennheiser headphones.  Tubes are from various places.
   
  The first four are made in New York.  Amp in Cali.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> I have one of those.  VPI Traveler, Grado Sonata1, Soundsmith MMP3 phono, Signal IC, DNA Sonett.  Then Sennheiser headphones.  Tubes are from various places.
> 
> The first four are made in New York.  Amp in Cali.


 
  Sounds like you need some Grados cans!


----------



## Redcarmoose

oregonian said:


> The Yamaha - P520 from 1983.





Lol. I used to have that amp. I loved the sound of it.


----------



## Oregonian

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> Lol. I used to have that amp. I loved the sound of it.


 

 It's my second turntable system anchor and does sound good.   Nice little amp.  Headphones sound great out of it.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> Sounds like you need some Grados cans!


 
  Ehhhhhhh... nah.
   
   
  DCD In Concert showed up today.  I do like the extra padding via numerous wraps of bubble wrap and box Elusive Disc used.


----------



## palmfish

That was fast. 

No pic = didnt happen...


----------



## Eee Pee

Pfffff.
   
   

   
   
  Boo yah!


----------



## palmfish

Nice!


----------



## Eee Pee

Cruddy pictures, but it's a box alright.
   
   

   
   

   
   
  Please do yourself a favor and put them in better sleeves.


----------



## palmfish

Like these?
   

   
  Tracking says my copy won't be delivered until  Aug. 7th.


----------



## Eee Pee

I use MoFi, used to use VRP from Discwasher. More or less the same. Yours are for sure better than their stiff paper record scratcher type. Only pull them out of those once, and never put them back in ever again. 

Show just started. Gotta go!


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> I use MoFi, used to use VRP from Discwasher. More or less the same. Yours are for sure better than their stiff paper record scratcher type. Only pull them out of those once, and never put them back in ever again.
> 
> Show just started. Gotta go!


 
  I'm a MoFi/VRP kind of guy.  I just stuffed the In Concert LPs into the MoFi sleeves and shoved them back in the black original scratchy sleeves.  Works.
   
  I wasn't too happy with them not telling me what was on each record.  Silly.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> I'm a MoFi/VRP kind of guy.  I just stuffed the In Concert LPs into the MoFi sleeves and shoved them back in the black original scratchy sleeves.  Works.
> 
> I wasn't too happy with them not telling me what was on each record.  Silly.


 
  I "like" the "Incognito Maximus" mode with which all DCD records are labeled as much as you do.
  It kind of works if you stick with the original inner scratcher sleeves to guesstimate which album is album 1, 2, or 3, and which side is A or B - change to decent inner sleeves and you are picking blind. Are In Concert scratchy inner sleeves really big enough to allow stuffing of decent inner sleeve inside?
   
  Part of their image, sophistication, extraterrestial gratification or whatever - if it was their intention to make you to "guess search" for the song you would like to hear, miss the correct LP and/or its side and ending up listening to another tune prior to finally nailing the one you were originally after, their plan to listen to as much DCD music as possible certainly suceeded.


----------



## Jesterphile




----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


>


 
  Mmmmmm...My favorite value cartridge!


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I'm a good stuffer.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I found a site that gives the TOC and it seems to check out.  Printed it and stuffed it in the box.  I'm infotainment that way.


----------



## MorbidToaster

longbowbbs said:


> Mmmmmm...My favorite value cartridge!




Mine too unless you count the Zu DL-103 in that category.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Destroysall

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> Like these?


 
  Has anyone any experience with these Space-Saving CD Sleeves from JazzLoft?
   
  http://www.jazzloft.com/p-34281-space-saving-cd-sleeves.aspx


----------



## Jesterphile

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> Mmmmmm...My favorite value cartridge!


 
   
  It sounds pretty great


----------



## Redcarmoose

@Anologesurviver.

In extream unlabeled discs check out the lead out area near the center of the record. The plate makers put marks because it would really be bad if they messed up. There should be 1,2,3 or something? Hold it up to reflect the light and look for little scratches near the lead-out.

I have seen a,b,c,d. Always something.


----------



## morserotonin

My Traveler spinning some Front Line Assembly...


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





morserotonin said:


> My Traveler spinning some Front Line Assembly...


 
   
   
  Am I seeing a Soundsmith cart on there?


----------



## morserotonin

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Am I seeing a Soundsmith cart on there?


 
  Yes a Sound-Smith Carmen!


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





morserotonin said:


> My Traveler spinning some Front Line Assembly...


 
  Considered it but got the RP6 instead.  Silly things bothered me like no dust cover and would an aftermarket dust cover clear the cueing lever which protruded outside the plinth.  It's a fine table of course.


----------



## morserotonin

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Considered it but got the RP6 instead.  Silly things bothered me like no dust cover and would an aftermarket dust cover clear the cueing lever which protruded outside the plinth.  It's a fine table of course.


 
  I got the Gingko Cloud 9t vibration control system with dust cover made for the traveler... but yes when it came out I had some of the same worries.


----------



## Eee Pee

Lucky with the Carmen!  I wanted it, but I went with what I already knew, though the updated version, Sonata1.  And then there's the supposed wait time for a Soundsmith cart?
   
  I let mine get all dusty.  Swiffer it clean before use.  And I put a jacket cover over the platter.  Though since I changed platters I don't do that as much, just Swiffer it all.
   
  bbophead, I'm really interested in the 2M Black on the Traveler.  You should bring it on over.  Eh, might as well bring that RP6 too.


----------



## morserotonin

I love the Carmen... I bought it from musicdirect.com so no wait time for it... I want to upgrade to the Aida, but I need to get a phono pre and a better headphone amp first. headphones too for that matter. New to head-fi as my speaker system isn't working out with the new children around lol. I love the HD 800s and the DNAudio stuff! Your rig looks quite a bit like where I want to be in 6 months Eee Pee.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> @Anologesurviver.
> 
> In extream unlabeled discs check out the lead out area near the center of the record. The plate makers put marks because it would really be bad if they messed up. There should be 1,2,3 or something? Hold it up to reflect the light and look for little scratches near the lead-out.
> 
> I have seen a,b,c,d. Always something.


 
  He he, they sometimes mess it up even more severely. I have bought what both on cover of the record and record's label should have been Eagles' Hotel California. It was (then) another WEA artist - Tom Waits' (exactly the album I have been looking for quite a while) - making my Tom Waits discography almost complete across certain part of his career.
   
  I will check if dead wax numbers are those for Tom Waits - or they managed to make more mess than just put on wrong label and putting it into correct jacket for that label.
   
  Such things did happen in the past - and I remember my friend who took one of such records back to the shop to exchange for the correct one. Only to find soon after that oddball record became a collector's item, dwarfing the correct regular issue in price many times over...


----------



## morserotonin

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Lucky with the Carmen!  I wanted it, but I went with what I already knew, though the updated version, Sonata1.  And then there's the supposed wait time for a Soundsmith cart?
> 
> I let mine get all dusty.  Swiffer it clean before use.  And I put a jacket cover over the platter.  Though since I changed platters I don't do that as much, just Swiffer it all.
> 
> bbophead, I'm really interested in the 2M Black on the Traveler.  You should bring it on over.  Eh, might as well bring that RP6 too.


 
  Oh and what platter are you using now? I like the black look if that is the one.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> making my Tom Waits discography almost complete across certain part of his career.


 
   
  Which part?
   
  Very much enjoy the Swordfishtrombones time period.
   
  Quote: 





morserotonin said:


> I love the Carmen...Your rig looks quite a bit like where I want to be in 6 months Eee Pee.


 
   
  Only issue I've come across with everything I have and my hesitation with getting the Carmen, is that with the Sonett's overall gain, and Soundsmith phono with 42 db of gain, and the Grado's 5 mV output (though I've read it might be only 4.2?), is I sometimes have my volume wide open.  Which I don't mind, because then the volume knob is not technically in the signal path anymore, but if I go any lower with cart output, it won't be loud enough.  Hence my inquiry about the Ortofon 2M Black, also a 5 mV output.  Carmen is 2.2 mV...
   
  A different amp or phono gain would change all that... but I do like the Sonett.


----------



## morserotonin

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Which part?
> 
> Very much enjoy the Swordfishtrombones time period.
> 
> ...


 
  I am looking at the ifi phono on the low end and a Sutherland Insight on the high end price wise both have 46db of gain on the MM inputs. This is the exact reason I am looking at these phono pres well that and the MC options as I want to get a ZU DL-103. I am either looking at the Sonnet or the Sonnet 2 and HD 700 or 800s... I love the Stratus with the 800s but a bit out of my price range... I could push for the 800s but will probably end up with the 700s for a bit.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





morserotonin said:


> Oh and what platter are you using now? I like the black look if that is the one.


 
   
   
  HW-19 Mark 3.  One inch thick black acrylic with a 6 pound lead weight in it, and cork covering the lead.  More importantly to me, it has a clamp.
   
  It was an upgrade from the original kinda clear acrylic one with no weight that came with the HW-19 jr... almost 20 years ago!


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





morserotonin said:


> I am looking at the ifi phono on the low end and a Sutherland Insight on the high end price wise both have 46db of gain on the MM inputs. This is the exact reason I am looking at these phono pres well that and the MC options as I want to get a ZU DL-103. I am either looking at the Sonnet or the Sonnet 2 and HD 700 or 800s... I love the Stratus with the 800s but a bit out of my price range... I could push for the 800s but will probably end up with the 700s for a bit.


 
   
   
   
   
  Quote: 





> With the *iPhono* in your vinyl playback system, from the moment the needle is *seated* in the record *grove* you will know the iPhono is something special. The fact that this is how vinyl should truly sound, is in no small part due to the Class A *TubeState tri-brid* amplification which offers a natural, real sound.


 
   
  Durrr.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
   
  700s are nice in my opinion, but the 800s are worth the extra time it takes to save up if you have to, or splurge on.  Worth it, for sure.  I've always been intrigued by Sutherland.  Very well laid out pieces.
   
  I've always said spend more than you can afford when it comes to vinyl.  
   
  Unless you're buying used, I think DNA is only making the Sonett 2...


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> bbophead, I'm really interested in the 2M Black on the Traveler.  You should bring it on over.  Eh, might as well bring that RP6 too.


 
  If I were ever to come to Ohio, the first thing I would do is go to Columbus to hear my man Tony Monaco.  Fat chance keeping the needle in _that _groove!


----------



## morserotonin

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> I've always said spend more than you can afford when it comes to vinyl.


 
  Yeah that's for sure!


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> first thing I would do is go to Columbus


 
  That's where I'm at.  Food trucks and beers, then a show, then late night records (and more beers).  
   
  Sounds like a date.  No homo.


----------



## morserotonin

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> If I were ever to come to Ohio, the first thing I would do is go to Columbus to hear my man Tony Monaco.  Fat chance keeping the needle in _that _groove!


 
  Checking out Tony Monaco right now on Spotify, Celebration album. This is awesome! Thanks for some new music to check!


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  http://www.columbusrumbacafe.com/calendar.html on 8/29, it'll be a manly date.


----------



## Eee Pee

See ya in a month.
   
  I went here


----------



## MorbidToaster

I've honestly heard nothing but excellent thibgs about the iPhono. The options are incredible in that (or any) price range. I'm tempted myself, but I really want the new Rega stage, too.

Also, serious inquiry for people with experience with both.

Zu DL103 (Phase 1) vs 2M Black

I think once my Kuzma gets here I'm gonna have that itch for a new cart.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> but I really want the new Rega stage


 
   
  Howscomes?


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> See ya in a month.
> 
> I went here


 
  Hired him twice in Houston, birthday and retirement.  Completely tore it up at Anderson Fair, the folk venue where Lyle Lovett, etc got started.  Seats 80.  Bad Ass.


----------



## Eee Pee

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Hired him twice


 
  Like!


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I've honestly heard nothing but excellent thibgs about the iPhono. The options are incredible in that (or any) price range. I'm tempted myself, but I really want the new Rega stage, too.
> 
> Also, serious inquiry for people with experience with both.
> 
> ...


 
  I have the iCAN and it's a very nice piece.  As you know, an English high end firm builds budget stuff under the IFI label.  Solidly built, like my Woo.
   
  If the Zu is bright and lively (I don't know it), it will probably be a lot like the 2M Black.  Coming from a Koetsu Onyx, the 2M Black was like a night and day difference and that's not typical head-fi exaggeration.  Right now I'm preferring the day.


----------



## MorbidToaster

eee pee said:


> Howscomes?




Decent options, super simple and sleek looks.


----------



## TheWuss




----------



## Eee Pee

Needs more acrylic!
   
  Jealous is me.  That is beautiful.


----------



## morserotonin

Jealous here as well!


----------



## Clayton SF

Human record cleaner.


----------



## analogsurviver

Nice planning in advance regarding sheer height of the custom dust cover - it can accommodate anything short of 
   
http://www.jeroendiepenmaat.nl/engels/work/pordesdents/pourdesdents.htm


----------



## Redcarmoose

thewuss said:


>





You win, let's shut this thread down!


----------



## TheWuss

Yeah, the challenge with the vpi tables is the tonearm wire loop. Or the "anti-skating" wire loop, if you are to believe everything harry weisfeld says. It sticks up pretty high. 
Still experimenting with feet and bases for the table, and continually amazed how much they change the sound...


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Nice planning in advance regarding sheer height of the custom dust cover - it can accommodate anything short of
> 
> http://www.jeroendiepenmaat.nl/engels/work/pordesdents/pourdesdents.htm


 
  Bird gets the groove?


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> You win, let's shut this thread down!


 
  No way a square box, no matter how beautiful, can win a beauty contest - or the most interesting pic. There are TTs out there that have not been featured on this thread yet - for that reason alone it has to be continued.
   
  Quote: 





thewuss said:


> Yeah, the challenge with the vpi tables is the tonearm wire loop. Or the "anti-skating" wire loop, if you are to believe everything harry weisfeld says. It sticks up pretty high.
> Still experimenting with feet and bases for the table, and continually amazed how much they change the sound...


 
  Output wires threaded like this really do at least partially contribute to the overall antiskating - at certain VTF, it is all that is needed.  With such a large loop, it could be that antiskating actually matches around 2 gram VTF as required by most carts nowadays without any addtional bias via weights, magnets etc.
   
  And this is about as beautiful box shaped  TT as possible - congrats.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Bird gets the groove?


 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d815Ame16fg


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Amazing!  I smoked Wintons in the '50s, just like my mom.


----------



## palmfish

Look what was waiting for me when I came home from work


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> Look what was waiting for me when I came home from work


 
  Mmm, Mmm, Good!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





palmfish said:


> Look what was waiting for me when I came home from work


 
  A friend who initiated me in vinyl for good in my teens used to answer regarding any new record/album received "how good it is" question by:
   
  "No idea - never actually tasted any, vinyl is kind of hard for teeth and probably tastes of oil...".
   
  Seriously, congrats for getting it at all and especially at the reasonable price. As this summer is quite a bit hotter than average - did the LP's themselves arrive at your place unwarped or were you "blessed" with that scourge?


----------



## palmfish

Thanks!

I havent checked them yet, just posed them for the picture. Im tired and my ears are ringing from work today so I'll wait until tomorrow to check them out. I am really looking forward to hearing these!


----------



## MorbidToaster

My 'In Concert' LPs were flat and quiet. I'd recommend that set to anyone. 

It sounds AMAZING.


----------



## Redcarmoose

morbidtoaster said:


> My 'In Concert' LPs were flat and quiet. I'd recommend that set to anyone.
> 
> It sounds AMAZING.



@ Morbid Toaster.......Are there little marks on the inner lead out of the record showing which side is which? I'm just curious.


----------



## Punnisher

Just got a pair of Bowers and Wilkins 685 and I wanted to share my new listening area. I'm still tweaking but here is the basic setup:


----------



## Oregonian

Quote: 





punnisher said:


> Just got a pair of Bowers and Wilkins 685 and I wanted to share my new listening area. I'm still tweaking but here is the basic setup:


 

 Sweet


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





punnisher said:


> Just got a pair of Bowers and Wilkins 685 and I wanted to share my new listening area. I'm still tweaking but here is the basic setup:


 
  Nice and clean.  I'm a mini-monitor fan.  If it were me, I would pull them farther out into the room and spread 'em, at least for "serious" listening.  Maybe you do that.  Experimentation with speaker placement can reap big rewards.


----------



## RamblinE

Look what followed me home this afternoon. The picture from my Nexus does no justice for how dirty it really is. 
   

   
  Granted I really like my NAD 5120. I've never had a Technics direct-drive before even though I've played with friend's models. I'm going to clean it up tonight after work. Clean the speed pot, Carefully duster-out the inside and outside and give it a few spins. Maybe if anything this will make a trusty backup unit. Slap an AT95E on it and call it the rainy day table.


----------



## palmfish

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> @ Morbid Toaster.......Are there little marks on the inner lead out of the record showing which side is which? I'm just curious.



  
 Yes, the inner grooves are etched with "A1" or "B1" etc to indicate side. The paper label on each album also indicates "1a" or "1b" etc.
  
 I tried to photograph the etched writing but my camera just can't pick it up.
  
 Yes, the vinyl is flat as a crepe (Seattle summers barely exceed the mid-80's) and the recording sounds very very good - dead quiet grooves and lovely sound


----------



## Punnisher

Thanks, I appreciate it. Last night I increased the distance between the speakers and placed them closer to the walls.
   
  The reason I placed them closer is to get some help with the low frequencies from the boundary effect. My room has the ability to absorb massive amounts of bass so this is one area I need to optimize. To me it still sounds fine with good imaging but has better bass response, close to being even with the rest of the spectrum. I also have tons of room treatment material and I will be experimenting with some of that as well.
   
  I am open to suggestions of course. I haven't been in the speaker club for very long and this is my first dedicated listening space.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





punnisher said:


> Thanks, I appreciate it. Last night I increased the distance between the speakers and placed them closer to the walls.
> 
> The reason I placed them closer is to get some help with the low frequencies from the boundary effect. My room has the ability to absorb massive amounts of bass so this is one area I need to optimize. To me it still sounds fine with good imaging but has better bass response, close to being even with the rest of the spectrum. I also have tons of room treatment material and I will be experimenting with some of that as well.
> 
> I am open to suggestions of course. I haven't been in the speaker club for very long and this is my first dedicated listening space.


 
  Understood.  But, just for fun, you might try them out into the room about 5-6' from the rear wall, if you can, and spread them wide but not so wide as to leave a hole in the middle of the soundstage, and you might get the Big Picture, something mini-monitors really excell at.


----------



## Eee Pee

Here's a few basic set up methods.
   
  http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php
   
  I recall starting with the rule of thirds and equilateral triangle, then moving things around.  Near field was cool too, set up on the wide wall.


----------



## bbophead

R.I.P Mr. Duke.  My favorite jazz fusion player of all time.


----------



## Silent One

@bbophead


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> R.I.P Mr. Duke.  My favorite jazz fusion player of all time.


 
  Oh - that news brought tears to my eyes...
   
  Hope he rejoins with his fellow musicians that are no longer with us - in some stellar jam session.
   
  A nice and respectful tribute - thanks!


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Understood.  But, just for fun, you might try them out into the room about 5-6' from the rear wall, if you can, and spread them wide but not so wide as to leave a hole in the middle of the soundstage, and you might get the Big Picture, something mini-monitors really excell at.


 
  +1.


----------



## Punnisher

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> +1.


 
  I have limited space in this room. 5'-6' would literally be in the center of the room. Last night I did increase the distance between the speakers and brought them away from the wall a few inches. Right now I'm close to an equilateral triangle setup. It seems like each adjustment I do yields huge differences. A big improvement in this case. Massive soundstage boost and much more even and deep bass reproduction. No frequency seems to be favored.


----------



## revault

Philips AF-777 turntable from 1979. it's automatic and plays 33's and 45's, although sometimes it ****s up on the 45s, it'll spin too slow/erratically. have no idea what it could be, but it plays LPs fine.

bought it for 25 dollars at a local record store


----------



## Eee Pee

McIntosh MT5


----------



## morserotonin

I haven't had a turntable in my listening rig in some time as I moved in with the girlfriend and kids. I am however headed to my storage tonight to grab a turntable or 2 and add it to my head-fi rig. No room for the maggies here hence becoming a headphone addict.  I just am still a bit worried about the kids and my VPI traveler/Sound-smith Carmen and might just bring back the Philips GA312 with AT95E. Mostly I just need to get my records out of storage as it is quite hot here! I will post a new photo when I get which ever one set up later!


----------



## longbowbbs

eee pee said:


> McIntosh MT5



I would love to see this table up close. I assume the platter has a nice green glow with the lights out.


----------



## Eee Pee

http://www.thrillist.com/own/nation/mcintosh-mt5-precision-turntable-retro-music-player-reboot-provides-vinyl-enthusiasts-chance-to-wax-nostalgic?ir=welcome&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=thrillist


----------



## longbowbbs

eee pee said:


> http://www.thrillist.com/own/nation/mcintosh-mt5-precision-turntable-retro-music-player-reboot-provides-vinyl-enthusiasts-chance-to-wax-nostalgic?ir=welcome&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=thrillist




Nice! Quite the fancy night light...


----------



## MattTCG

subbed...


----------



## Redcarmoose

eee pee said:


> McIntosh MT5






Money Green, they call it.


----------



## parbaked

Scored some new "Toys" for my vinyl rig.
  Stunning little Sonus Faber Toy Monitors.
   

   
  Modified Rega P2/Benz Micro Silver > (1974) Pioneer SA-7100  > SF Toy Monitors


----------



## penmarker

Wonderful.
   
  How do they sound that close to the wall, and how big is your space?


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





penmarker said:


> Wonderful.
> 
> How do they sound that close to the wall, and how big is your space?


 
  They are in a small office, 10" from the wall, but near field listening and coping well.
  I broke them in in the big room and they are amazing for their size 3' from the walls on heavy 26" stands (if you are into small monitors, which I am). If you spread them wider than your listening position you get both the wide sound stage and a little bass boost from the walls. These replaced Rogers LS3/5a that I had for 25+ years and I am VERY happy!


----------



## Oregonian

A view from the top..............


----------



## Destroysall

parbaked said:


> Scored some new "Toys" for my vinyl rig.
> Stunning little Sonus Faber Toy Monitors.
> 
> 
> ...


This looks stunning , any chance for a wide shot photo of everything from the front of it?


----------



## MattTCG

Dang, that looks nice!! Even nicer when I think of the deal you got.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





oregonian said:


> A view from the top..............


 
   
  Very nice. It reminds me of an aerial view of a high-rise with a Helipad.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





destroysall said:


> This looks stunning , any chance for a wide shot photo of everything from the front of it?


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> They are in a small office, 10" from the wall, but near field listening and coping well.
> I broke them in in the big room and they are amazing for their size 3' from the walls on heavy 26" stands (if you are into small monitors, which I am). If you spread them wider than your listening position you get both the wide sound stage and a little bass boost from the walls. These replaced Rogers LS3/5a that I had for 25+ years and I am VERY happy!


 
  LS3/5a was and still is a great speaker - terribly hard to drive, but ultimately great. One of the fondest adio memories of mine. How do the small Sonus Faber compare ?
   
  BUT - TT and CD on the very same shelf as speakers is a no go. You could mount some mini stands on the rear wall, just enough to raise the speakers an inch or so above the shelf - should bring marked improvement to the sound without affecting your present speaker positioning too much.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> LS3/5a was and still is a great speaker - terribly hard to drive, but ultimately great. One of the fondest adio memories of mine. How do the small Sonus Faber compare ?
> 
> BUT - TT and CD on the very same shelf as speakers is a no go. You could mount some mini stands on the rear wall, just enough to raise the speakers an inch or so above the shelf - should bring marked improvement to the sound without affecting your present speaker positioning too much.


 
  They are both great little speakers. The SF are more natural sounding, the LS3/5a more "magical".
  I only sold my LS3/5a because they were getting old and a collector offered me more than I could refuse = enough to buy the Sonus Fabers AND eventually a new pair of Stirling LS3/5a V2. Unfortunately at today's prices the vintage LS3/5a are quite dear.
   
  I selected these Sonus Faber because these are one of the last models designed by Franco Serblin before he sold the company and also the last "entry level" model to be made in Italy. Only made for 2-3 years (5000 pair) before new owners realized it was too expensive to produce in Italy and launched new made in China entry line.
  The workmanship and materials are tremendous and I would rather "look" at these then most any other mini monitor. 
   
  The Turntable is actually isolated from the speakers - no speaker on same case as TT - but the CD player is on an isolation platform on the same bookcase as one speaker.
  The left speaker is on it's own case.
   

   
  Shelves won't work as the little speakers are actually 10" deep and 10" from wall so a shelf would have to be 20" deep!
  This set is in my office for background listening, so it's fine as long as the TT is not coupled to the speakers. 
  With good stands, the vintage Pioneer amp and Rega TT, this would be a great system for a small listening room.
   
  And a TT pic to compensate for the long post:


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> You could mount some mini stands on the rear wall, just enough to raise the speakers an inch or so above the shelf


 
  Instead of mounting the speakers I'd try the Rega turntable shelf.
  I'd get one of these if I could commit to locating my TT and not moving it!


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Looks similar to my original Target.  I read somewhere that the current Target wall shelf mounts are not as robust.  Love them there headlights, tho'!
   
  Mine with my old Oracle now replaced with RP6 bolted to the studs.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> Looks similar to my original Target.


 
  The difference is the Rega has no shelf just 3 x platforms/cups aligned to the 3 x feet on all standard Rega plinths.
   

   
  As such arguably "better" for Rega but useless for other TTs, unless one added a shelf...


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yeah, I've been missing that bass between 20 and 21HZ. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  But, where's that delightful, yet scary, wall paper?


----------



## parbaked

Spinning Charlie Parker...Happy Friday!


----------



## Eee Pee

Yay Fridays and vinyl!
   
  A favorite thing for me.


----------



## MattTCG

Oh how I lust to join the vinyl party. I've just started learning about TT's so I've got a ways to go before I'm comfortable making a purchase. If someone cares to help me with a few suggestions that would be appreciated.


----------



## Eee Pee

Skylab has a great thread about all things turntabley.  Great place to start.
   
  Set a budget, then double it and have fun.


----------



## MattTCG

Thanks...I'll check out his thread.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> Spinning Charlie Parker...Happy Friday!


 
  You old school, mang!


----------



## Oregonian

matttcg said:


> Oh how I lust to join the vinyl party. I've just started learning about TT's so I've got a ways to go before I'm comfortable making a purchase. If someone cares to help me with a few suggestions that would be appreciated.




Do you have a vintage stereo shop anywhere near you? I went to mine talk to the guy for about 10 minutes he had eight choices of vintage turntables to choose from and voilà made me happy.

Now if you don't have a guy like that to rely on you just have to learn from audio karma or Skylabs thread. I will say this the guy told me direct drive is the way to go.


----------



## MattTCG

There used to be a stereo shop in town similar to what you describe but it closed. There may be others but I'll have to find them out. 
   
  I'd like to pickup a nice TT from someone local looking to move up the chain.


----------



## Oregonian

matttcg said:


> There used to be a stereo shop in town similar to what you describe but it closed. There may be others but I'll have to find them out.
> 
> I'd like to pickup a nice TT from someone local looking to move up the chain.




Have you tried Barter Town on Audiokarma? Have to be a contributing ($25) member but worth the price. I got one of my integrated amps from there.


----------



## MattTCG

I thought about joining actually. There are a few other things that Barter Town might help me out with. I may give it a shot.


----------



## Oregonian

matttcg said:


> I thought about joining actually. There are a few other things that Barter Town might help me out with. I may give it a shot.




I've bought LP's, CD's and blank cassettes as well for good pricing. There are a few guys with great LP collections for sale. Just got a Dark Side of the Moon album from 1973 for $15 that was pretty much pristine.


----------



## Skylab

I just upgraded the pickup on my Pioneer PL-530 from a Ortofon 2M Bronze to a 2M Black "pnp" version that includes the Ortofon headshell. Spinning the new 87 Grateful Dead NYE show:


----------



## bbophead

Verry nice!  It does have that stealth look, doesn't it?  
   
  Sound impressions?


----------



## Skylab

It's early yet, but its clearly smoother and more detailed than the Bronze - which I already liked. No one will confuse it with a Moving Coil, but it sounds excellent in a slightly bold sort of way.


----------



## Silent One

Yeah, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think I'd better send Skylab my resume.


----------



## bbophead

Same as my experience although I am comparing Oracle Delphi MKI/Koetsu Onyx with RP6/2M Black.  Please ignore the gnrr that I wiped off after the pic.  Bold is a good description although with the RP6 probably runing fast, it's even bolder.


----------



## morserotonin

I have always been interested in the 2M black also the Zu Audio DL-103. One of them will be my next cartridge. Probably the Zu, but I keep going back and forth.


----------



## Oregonian

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I just upgraded the pickup on my Pioneer PL-530 from a Ortofon 2M Bronze to a 2M Black "pnp" version that includes the Ortofon headshell. Spinning the new 87 Grateful Dead NYE show:


 

 What model is that turntable?  PL-500?  Can't quite be sure.  I want a Pioneer to go with my Pioneer Spec system.  Any idea when this was build?


----------



## MattTCG

I think that he said pl-530. It's very nice!!


----------



## Skylab

Yup, PL-530, built 76-78. Really solid, good sounding DD TT.


----------



## Oregonian

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yup, PL-530, built 76-78. Really solid, good sounding DD TT.


 

 Jeez, it was right at the top of the pictures.  Sorry about that.  I was mesmerized by that gorgeous album I guess.


----------



## Eee Pee

Was this the thread we talked about Amazon and SoundstageDirect and shipping?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Tried Soundstage out because they seemed to have one of the few remaining copies of Tori Amos' reissued Under The Pink.  Not a fan, but I have friends that most definitely are, so why not.
   
   

   

   

   

   
   
   
   
   
  Everything was fine, surprisingly because the inner protective thing was also smashed and dented. And it came from only one state over!  Never seen anything come from Amazon look like that.  Nor is the record flat, but yay for clamps!  Sounds quite nice I must say.  Little surface noise, but less than a lot of what I have.  Doesn't seem 180 gram either as it says it is.  Not a cheap album either, but you'll have that sometimes.


----------



## Silent One

I have received a few different shipments for LPs with SoundStageDirect and my boxes never got tested in that way. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 All arrived as if each were handed to me from over the counter.


----------



## Eee Pee

Can't blame SD, of course.  But the courier route I will.  Maybe someone was having a bad day and read Fragile and gave it the opening scene to Ace Ventura Pet Detective treatment.  
   
   
   

   
   




   
   
   
   
   
  SD's packaging worked fine for the most part.  Little dent on a flat side... but it's fine.


----------



## dosley01

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Was this the thread we talked about Amazon and SoundstageDirect and shipping?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Media Mail = BAD  I always make sure I'm getting ground shipping.  At least around Boston, USPS seems to treat my packages about the same but UPS and Fedex have had a much better record.  (Ha, no pun intended!)


----------



## dosley01

Got the Q Up today.  Aside from the outrageous 59.99 price tag, it works great.  It probably costs about .99 cents to manufacture but if it save my $600 cartridge, I guess it's worth it.
   
  It took about 5 minutes to install and adjust and if you adjust the tension to the minimum, it doesn't bounce nearly as bad as shown in the YouTube videos.


----------



## Destroysall

Quote: 





dosley01 said:


>


 
  One has to give credit to Marantz for creating such a gorgeous turntable.


----------



## Baxide

Quote: 





dosley01 said:


> Got the Q Up today.  Aside from the outrageous 59.99 price tag, it works great.  It probably costs about .99 cents to manufacture but if it save my $600 cartridge, I guess it's worth it.


 
  Wouldn't it be nice to think that if it cost that little to manufacture you could pick it up for $1.00. But the economics of business is not that simple. The cost of packing, shipping, various taxes, and operating profit of the various businesses that have had to handle the item from factory to the retailer that sold you the part also has to be taken into account.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





destroysall said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  +1.  Or, Clearaudio, whomever.


----------



## TheWuss

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *dosley01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ...but if it save my $600 cartridge, I guess it's worth it.


 
   
  I mean, does it _really_ hurt the stylus that much to sit in the lock-out groove for a few seconds while you get up to change the record?
   
  personally, I worry more about dirty records than lifting the arm just as soon as Side A is over....


----------



## Skylab

The only need for a cue-up is if you have a habit of leaving the stylus in the lead-out groove for HOURS. Otherwise, personally, I think the device may actually increase the overall risk of damaging the cartridge. But if you like to go to sleep with an LP playing, then it does make good sense.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The only need for a cue-up is if you have a habit of leaving the stylus in the lead-out groove for HOURS. Otherwise, personally, I think the device may actually increase the overall risk of damaging the cartridge. But if you like to go to sleep with an LP playing, then it does make good sense.


 
  +1.


----------



## CrazyRay

+2


----------



## dosley01

I nod off all the time!  So for me it's worth it.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





dosley01 said:


> I nod off all the time!  So for me it's worth it.


 
  It IS worth it - IF properly adjusted. Lead out groove is no different than normal, it only contains one pulse per revoluton that can be used to measure the absolute polarity of the cartridge - it will wear out the stylus only if run for hours - if you fall asleep etc.
   
  One of my TTs, the NAD 5120, has lift at the end of the record (+ stopping the platter ) built in. Although it looks rather brutal performing this, it is actually very gentle on the stylus. Technics SL linear tables may even have title programming ( a la CD , only no remote ) - of course they offer lift off/stop at the end.
   
  Q Up and its equivalents are like insurance - not absolutely required, yet mighty handy if you for any reason forget to lift the stylus once the side of an LP is finished. Just a couple of revolutions will do no harm - no need to break time records from your easy chair to your turntable..


----------



## Punnisher

I recently fell asleep when listening to an lp and of course it just kept on spinning. I only noticed the next morning. It probably spun for a solid 6 hours. I'm not sure how much wear and tear occurs on this portion of the LP but if it's no more than playing an LP then I'm not too worried. If it's far more then maybe it's time to upgrade...


----------



## brhfl

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> One of my TTs, the NAD 5120, has lift at the end of the record (+ stopping the platter ) built in. Although it looks rather brutal performing this, it is actually very gentle on the stylus. Technics SL linear tables may even have title programming ( a la CD , only no remote ) - of course they offer lift off/stop at the end.


 
   
  I've been 100% manual on my last few turntables, but I always enjoyed the programmable ones. Had (well, still have, but it doesn't function so great) a Sansui that you loaded in a tray like a CD player. Two linear arms with optical tracking, one for either side. Play the whole record without flipping, build a 'playlist,' random access of any track on the disc... Little bit ridiculous, but that thing was _neat_.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





punnisher said:


> I recently fell asleep when listening to an lp and of course it just kept on spinning. I only noticed the next morning. It probably spun for a solid 6 hours. I'm not sure how much wear and tear occurs on this portion of the LP but if it's no more than playing an LP then I'm not too worried. If it's far more then maybe it's time to upgrade...


 
  Simple - it was six hours in the groove, if we say an LP is on average 50 minutes long, you wasted say 6 or 7 LP worth of playing time of your stylus.
   
  You got off lightly - my friend also fell asleep, many, many, many full moons ago. The constant noise of the end groove must have annoyed his mother enough to come to his room and tried to lift the arm. A tonearm is supposed to lift ALL THE WAY - *RIGHT ?*  Ordinary arm do - but NOT this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioVvS49czRQ This is the best vid of Transcriptors Vestigal I found on YT that shows this extrordinary arm in action, particularly as record is warped, in keeping with the mid 70s and *O*ver *P*ricing *E*very *C*an resulting in oil crisis that lead to super thin floppy vinyls of the era. The arm pivots at its base in horizontal only, vertically pivots only the "HEADSHELL" , which is counterweighted close to the main horizontal bearing via thread. Both headshell and counterweight are clearly visible to move appreciably. Vestigal is, used correctly, one of the very best tonearms ever made. But it is like Princess and the Pea ...
   
  She managed to lift it ALL THE WAY
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 - wrecking the horizontal bearing to fubar condition, beyond repair.
   
  Vestigal does not have lifting device, other than fingerlift. The only other tonearm, made along basically the same principle, is Dynavector series 505 and 507 - where lift is optionally available and will set you back more than most are prepared to spend on the whole tonearm. End of side lifting - fugheddaboudit !


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





brhfl said:


> I've been 100% manual on my last few turntables, but I always enjoyed the programmable ones. Had (well, still have, but it doesn't function so great) a Sansui that you loaded in a tray like a CD player. Two linear arms with optical tracking, one for either side. Play the whole record without flipping, build a 'playlist,' random access of any track on the disc... Little bit ridiculous, but that thing was _neat_.


 
  Interesting - never saw one of those in flesh.
   
  Possibility for the most "obsessed & deranged" - have record company print your albums ALWAYS as 2LP set, record 1 having Side A on both sides, record 2 having side B on both sides - and you can A/B various cartridges in real time ( of course both sides are PLL locked ...). Kidding aside, how did it perform - from the description it seems to be devoid of platter in traditional sense, most probably had some clamping arrangement for the record over label area. 
   
  Pic of that rare beast 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ?


----------



## shipsupt

I agree that your cartridge isn't going to get damaged by a few seconds/minutes in the lead out groove (although, for what we spend on these things why not take good care of them), but I'm struggling to see how it would increase the chance of damaging the cartridge?
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> The only need for a cue-up is if you have a habit of leaving the stylus in the lead-out groove for HOURS. Otherwise, personally, I think the device may actually increase the overall risk of damaging the cartridge. But if you like to go to sleep with an LP playing, then it does make good sense.


----------



## brhfl

Quote: 





analogsurviver said:


> Interesting - never saw one of those in flesh.
> 
> Possibility for the most "obsessed & deranged" - have record company print your albums ALWAYS as 2LP set, record 1 having Side A on both sides, record 2 having side B on both sides - and you can A/B various cartridges in real time ( of course both sides are PLL locked ...). Kidding aside, how did it perform - from the description it seems to be devoid of platter in traditional sense, most probably had some clamping arrangement for the record over label area.
> 
> ...


 
  Yep, clamped down. I'd say it sounded as good as any of those consumer-grade linear trackers. Unfortunately, while playing with all the buttons was fun and all, it missed a big part of what vinyl is to me - tactile and experiential. It just ate up the disc and did it's thing. Doesn't quite compare to moving a belt between two pulleys to adjust speed, dropping a needle, listening to hidden loops in the lead-out... Also, it was mechanically complicated... the tray, the clamp, the two arms... Last time I used it it still _worked_, but in the sense that you would close the tray, you might have to push it in a little as it was trying to pull it, it might spit it right back out, it might flash all the lights at you instead of playing once it actually ate it up, etc... I'll try to get a photo or two this weekend, if I can find the ol' fellow.


----------



## Skylab

shipsupt said:


> I agree that your cartridge isn't going to get damaged by a few seconds/minutes in the lead out groove (although, for what we spend on these things why not take good care of them), but I'm struggling to see how it would increase the chance of damaging the cartridge?




I have seen a similar type of device malfunction and send the tone arm flying and bouncing hard back on the LP...


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





shipsupt said:


> I agree that your cartridge isn't going to get damaged by a few seconds/minutes in the lead out groove (although, for what we spend on these things why not take good care of them), but I'm struggling to see how it would increase the chance of damaging the cartridge?


 
  It really depends on the cartridge/stylus cost. If you are running say a $ 100 cart, paying $ 60 or so for the end of side lifting device is tough. If you are running a 4 or five figure cart that can well exceed the price of $ 1 per hour of play, that is a totally different story. A single - or two? - nights you fell asleep is all that it takes for the Q  Up or similar to pay for itself in terms of wear. A low compliance MC tracking at say 2.5 gram VTF is not likely to have its diamond really good for over 500 hours or so - if it costs XK$, do the math...
   
  Any additional mumbo jumbo in the vicinity of the tonearm increases the risk - mainly from human error, sometimes from malfunction.


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





punnisher said:


> I recently fell asleep when listening to an lp and of course it just kept on spinning. I only noticed the next morning. It probably spun for a solid 6 hours. I'm not sure how much wear and tear occurs on this portion of the LP but if it's no more than playing an LP then I'm not too worried. If it's far more then maybe it's time to upgrade...


 




  What about the albums where the lead-out goes into the record label, then the needle goes four-wheelen bouncing out and across the flat part to then falling into the lead-out groove again to repeat over and over again.


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I have seen a similar type of device malfunction and send the tone arm flying and bouncing hard back on the LP...


 
  My friend had a big friend over who somehow lost balance over his VPI and placed the palm of his hand abruptly on top of the arm.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Those titanium needles under the arm really can bend to look like fish hooks. Lucky VPI sells em as replacements.


----------



## Punnisher

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> What about the albums where the lead-out goes into the record label, then the needle goes four-wheelen bouncing out and across the flat part to then falling into the lead-out groove again to repeat over and over again.


 
  I have had that happen before lol. Luckily it just stayed in the lead-out area, making no noise at all. I am thankful it happened now and not later on when I upgrade my cartridge.
   
  Though just because of this I am thinking of making my own tonearm lifter. I think I can come up with something safe.


----------



## OPR8R

What about LP's on which during quiet passages I can faintly hear what sounds like the next groove?  I read this is an artifact with a certain type of record pressing.  Anyone else get this?  Last night I listened to Norah Jones Come Away With Me, and the effect was sort of annoying.  I think I'll try getting the heavier recording.


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





opr8r said:


> What about LP's on which during quiet passages I can faintly hear what sounds like the next groove?  I read this is an artifact with a certain type of record pressing.  Anyone else get this?  Last night I listened to Norah Jones Come Away With Me, and the effect was sort of annoying.  I think I'll try getting the heavier recording.


 
  Remember any info that is picked up from the needle is going to be replayed. Even small bumps pressing threw from the other side.
   
  On some early RCA pressings we could actually hear the other side. There are so many strange funny things in the world of vinyl. The ...I think they were called something like flexies for short. They were mid seventies pressings which were so thin and not totally black vinyl, you could see threw em.
   
  I'm not talking about those disks that came with magazines, These were regular records that maybe to cut cost were made really thin. Maybe the name was Dynagroove?.
   
  Edit: The labels we could hear the other side looked actually like this RCA.


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I believe it's called pre-echo and post-echo and has something to do with pressing issues, no pun intended.  Cassettes and open reels could have the same problem, maybe having to do with how loud the music was recorded, meter needles to the max and beyond.
   
  Yes, Dynagroove from RCA, although I never heard print through from the other side!  Had something to do with the oil crisis in the '70s.
   
  In the interest of pix:


----------



## OPR8R

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> I believe it's called pre-echo and post-echo and has something to do with pressing issues, no pun intended.  Cassettes and open reels could have the same problem, maybe having to do with how loud the music was recorded, meter needles to the max and beyond.
> 
> Yes, Dynagroove from RCA, although I never heard print through from the other side!  Had something to do with the oil crisis in the '70s.


 
  Seems like it was more common with cassettes: I've only heard this on a few LP's.


----------



## Redcarmoose

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> I believe it's called pre-echo and post-echo and has something to do with pressing issues, no pun intended.  Cassettes and open reels could have the same problem, maybe having to do with how loud the music was recorded, meter needles to the max and beyond.
> 
> Yes, Dynagroove from RCA, although I never heard print through from the other side!  Had something to do with the oil crisis in the '70s.
> 
> In the interest of pix:


 
  It happened with tape because the tape magnetism bleed to another area. Perfect example is when Robert Plant says Way down....... in the middle of Whole Lot Of Love. Perfect tape bleed.
  http://www.thegearpage.net/board/archive/index.php/t-677972.html


----------



## MorbidToaster

Plenty of modern records have that issue. James Blake's ST album did pretty badly. My old copy of Zep IV does it, too. 

As for Come Away With Me...just get the AP 200g pressing. Master is better, pressing is better. Worth the investment. Though my Blue Note cooy didn't have that problem.


----------



## OPR8R

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Plenty of modern records have that issue. James Blake's ST album did pretty badly. My old copy of Zep IV does it, too.
> 
> As for Come Away With Me...just get the AP 200g pressing. Master is better, pressing is better. Worth the investment. Though my Blue Note cooy didn't have that problem.


 

 I'm thinking I'll do that.  It'll give me a chance to try out Sounstagedirect.


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





redcarmoose said:


> My friend had a big friend over who somehow lost balance over his VPI and placed the palm of his hand abruptly on top of the arm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Maybe that's why Rega suggests to try playing with the dust cover on - IF BIG FRIENDS COME OVER!


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





parbaked said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  LOL!!!!!
   
  (OMG, does that pic show a record being played while the dust cover is down?  Tell me it's not so!


----------



## parbaked

Quote: 





bbophead said:


> LOL!!!!!
> 
> (OMG, does that pic show a record being played while the dust cover is down?  Tell me it's not so!


 
  Photoshop, I swear!


----------



## morserotonin

Lateralus spinning right now... Great way to start the day!


----------



## Eee Pee

Somewhat interesting item from PS Audio:  http://www.psaudio.com/shop/nuwave-phono-converter/
  


> PS Audio’s NuWave Phono Converter, NPC, is a new category for the High End that combines a state-of-the-art phono preamplifier and analog DSD/PCM converter together in a world’s first.


----------



## calipilot227

A phonostage with balanced outputs? You don't see that often


----------



## Eee Pee

True, however their GCPH (phono) had them, also.  And then plug those into their GCHA (head amp)...


----------



## MorbidToaster

There's a lot of phono stages with balanced outs. Balanced ins are the unicorn.

Also, I was reading about this the other day and I still don't get it. 

It's not a DAC. ADC, fine, but the marketting basically make it sound like you'd want to listen to your LPs in DSD directly through a DAC.

Why the hell wouldn't you just listen to the analog?

Am I missing something?


----------



## Punnisher

I believe it's for recording purposes. Transcribing the analog vinyl into a digital file. Some people would be very interested in this because you can play back vinyl in high-res on different systems.


----------



## MorbidToaster

punnisher said:


> I believe it's for recording purposes. Transcribing the analog vinyl into a digital file. Some people would be very interested in this because you can play back vinyl in high-res on different systems.




Oh no I understand that but every time I read the marketing jargon it makes me think they want you to play it directly. Like feed I2S to another DAC. There's a few features I don't see the point of having on this thing.


----------



## bbophead

Atma-Sphere has been making fully balanced pre-amps with phono stages for many years.  I know, I used to own their MP-3.  Since cartridges are inherently balanced, it makes sense.  
  
 I wonder what a small scratch would sound like in DSD.


----------



## Hi-Five

morbidtoaster said:


> Oh no I understand that but every time I read the marketing jargon it makes me think they want you to play it directly. Like feed I2S to another DAC. There's a few features I don't see the point of having on this thing.


 
  
 I've felt the same way about the way it has been presented....listen to any analog source on your DAC of choice!  But other than archiving, why the heck would anyone want to digitize an analog signal only to decode again immediately on another DAC doesn't make much sense to me either.
  
 I think this is another step to unifying preamp, A/D and D/A in one box while keeping options for the vinyl spinners available.
  
 Interesting gear, odd marketing I guess.
  
 Hi-Five


----------



## Punnisher

Going A-D-A for real-time vinyl playback seems a bit sacrilegious to me. I really doubt any vinyl junkie would want to do this.
  
 Vinyl archiving is a different story. I do high-res vinyl rips and love that I can play back my favorite lps on digital systems without wearing out valuable lps. That's what I would use it for.


----------



## MorbidToaster

punnisher said:


> Going A-D-A for real-time vinyl playback seems a bit sacrilegious to me. I really doubt any vinyl junkie would want to do this.
> 
> Vinyl archiving is a different story. I do high-res vinyl rips and love that I can play back my favorite lps on digital systems without wearing out valuable lps. That's what I would use it for.




I'm pretty interested in it for archival purposes. 

I need a new phono stage, and I want a good ADC for needle drops...BUT I could get a Hilo and get a killer DAC and ADC, but then I'd have to get a new phono stage anyway.

I was also less than impressed with the last PS Audio phono stage I heard. Might wait for review...might end up with one. Guess we'll see.


----------



## Hi-Five

morbidtoaster said:


> I'm pretty interested in it for archival purposes.
> 
> I need a new phono stage, and I want a good ADC for needle drops...BUT I could get a Hilo and get a killer DAC and ADC, but then I'd have to get a new phono stage anyway.
> 
> I was also less than impressed with the last PS Audio phono stage I heard. Might wait for review...might end up with one. Guess we'll see.


 
  
 Definitely worth a look if one doesn't already have a nice phono pre.  We'll have to see how it sounds.  One could certainly get a nice A/D for that kind of money.  I haven't tried it yet, but I really should start ripping some of my vinyl using my Apogee Ensemble.  The Decware ZP3 and a choice set of tubes might make for some pretty good sound into those sweet Apogee converters!
  
 To keep it a picture thread, here's a "first spin" shot of my friend's band's new album on clear wax.
  
 Hi-Five


----------



## OPR8R

So the 200 gram version of Come Away with Me came in the mail.  There's less pre-echo (almost none now), but in general it sounds much better than the other, far floppier version.  Also the packaging is nicer; it came with a gatefold jacket with more pictures, and a high quality inner sleeve.  And I much prefer Soundstagedirect's (shipping) packing to Amazon's.


----------



## bbophead

FYI


----------



## Eee Pee

> A short film that explores how different people respond to the same piece of music, all captured from the point of view of a vinyl spinning on a record player.


 
  
  
 /img/vimeo_logo.png


----------



## bbophead

eee pee said:


> > A short film that explores how different people respond to the same piece of music, all captured from the point of view of a vinyl spinning on a record player.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hmm, couldn't get it to play more than ten seconds.  Might be my stuff.


----------



## Skylab

I have installed the 2M Black "PNP" cartridge/headshell combo on my Pioneer PL-530 - sounds terrific.


----------



## Eee Pee

Woo!  That is mighty sweet looking!  Really sweet.  I bet you're all


----------



## Skylab

Thanks! Yup, it's pretty cool looking. And sounds great


----------



## bbophead

skylab said:


> Thanks! Yup, it's pretty cool looking. And sounds great


 
  
 Yeah, I'm a fanman.
  
 Please ignore the gnnrrr.  I need a new pic.


----------



## CrazyRay

Nicely done Skylab!


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> FYI


 
  Congrats!
  
 Well, I am preparing to digitize at least the amount of vinyl pictured here into DSD128 files . Even if we assume the sound will be indistinguishable ( which can be approximated with DSD better than any commercially other available digital ) from the vinyl playing live, clicking on some wireless rodent  to get some silicon playing music will NEVER be able to replace the ceremony of playing vinyl. The tangible feel of the record jacket, which is an art on its own, is not reproducible on a computer screen. As is the super fine texture that even DSD is still lacking. As far as this quality is concerned, PCM and particularly 44.1/16 bit - never happened.


----------



## analogsurviver

skylab said:


> I have installed the 2M Black "PNP" cartridge/headshell combo on my Pioneer PL-530 - sounds terrific.


 
 Does this headshell allow for lateral alignment of the phono cartridge offset angle and/or overhang AND azimuth adjustment ? These, if fixed, leave you at the mercy of the tonearm designer that were anything but precise regarding geometry say 30 + years ago. From what I could decipher from the photos, minor lateral geometry adjustment should be possible.
  
 Otherwise, this headshell seems to be optimized for rigidity/lack of/suppression of resonances. It is not the usual gimmick luring $ out of audiophile pocket on grounds of looks/exotic materials/precision of execution alone. It has one of the most practically useable and not too detrimental for sonics fingerlift seen to date in a commercially available product. I bet 2Ms sound better in it than they do in more conventional headshells. Did you try 2M Black out of curiosity in some other hedshells on this table as well ?


----------



## Skylab

You're correct, you cannot adjust either overhang or offset angle.  Fortunately, on the Pioneer, it wasn't really required.  On the Pioneer, overhang as checked with a Mobile Fidelity GeoDisc is spot on. Offset angle may be the very tiniest bit off, which will set the theoretically ideal tracking point a very slight amount more toward the beginning of the record than the end, but IMHO it's not even close to enough to be significant. I had a 2M Bronze on the original Pioneer headshell, and yes, I was able to optimize it very slightly better using the GeoDisc. But the PNP lines up very close. Close enough that I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to someone who doesn't have the tools/experience doing cartridge alignment.


----------



## analogsurviver

skylab said:


> You're correct, you cannot adjust either overhang or offset angle.  Fortunately, on the Pioneer, it wasn't really required.  On the Pioneer, overhang as checked with a Mobile Fidelity GeoDisc is spot on. Offset angle may be the very tiniest bit off, which will set the theoretically ideal tracking point a very slight amount more toward the beginning of the record than the end, but IMHO it's not even close to enough to be significant. I had a 2M Bronze on the original Pioneer headshell, and yes, I was able to optimize it very slightly better using the GeoDisc. But the PNP lines up very close. Close enough that I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to someone who doesn't have the tools/experience doing cartridge alignment.


 
  
 Thank you for the instant reply. You were lucky with the Pioneer, most others are simply too much off.
  
*WARNING :* Technics arm on the 1210 DOES have a significant error in offset angle AND overhang and I would not recommend using this headshell on
 Technics. A good conventional headshell would allow for proper alignment.


----------



## Skylab

Why would you say that "most others are simply too much off"? The Technics may be, I have no experience with the Technics, but I think that in MANY cases where the arm uses a universal headshell, the alignment will be quite reasonable.  It cannot just be "luck" that it lines up almost exactly perfect on both of my Pioneer decks...
  
 Nothing universal is going to be a panacea. But this may be valuable to people who don't have the tools or experience to do cartridge alignment.


----------



## analogsurviver

skylab said:


> Why would you say that "most others are simply too much off"? The Technics may be, I have no experience with the Technics, but I think that in MANY cases where the arm uses a universal headshell, the alignment will be quite reasonable.  It cannot just be "luck" that it lines up almost exactly perfect on both of my Pioneer decks...
> 
> Nothing universal is going to be a panacea. But this may be valuable to people who don't have the tools or experience to do cartridge alignment.


 
  
 In 80s, Audio ( US magazine, now defunct ) published a good article on tonearm geometry. They had LOTS of then separately available arms on test, mounted them as per manufacturer's instructions, and then compared the results achieved with the theoretically and practically achievable results obtained by the use of Dennesen Soundtractor ( Baerwald alignment ). Very, VERY few were correct. You can see the "diversity" of the geometry of some pivoted arms here
http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~yosh/armdata.htm
 I could have used ANY similar list - point remains the same.
  
 Since then, many alignment tools using Baerwald alignment have been made available, MFs GeoDisc included. Baerwald has 66.0 mm and 120.9 mm from the centre of the record as null points
  
 My own experience with mounting XY carts on XZ turntables , both "integrated" and separate motor/arm variety, confirms this. In general, Japanese tonearms list 15 mm as overhang - regardles if the effective lenght of the arm is 1 milimetre or 1 kilometre. There is only one effective lenght for which 15 mm overhang is correct - and it is fairly longer than average. Most Japanese arms tend to have too short overhang and too small offset angle to accomodate Baerwald alignment. In addition, there is tendency to mount the arm too close to the main bearing - in simple attempt to make the overall
 dimension of the TT smaller.
  
 That Audio article did have consequences - for example, SME did revise the geometry of the wand for the SME Sereies III , which was originally issued with wand according to IIRC Stevenson alignment that pays too little attention to the tracking error at the outer grooves if aligned right inside. It is possible to align the cart in SME III wand"MK I" correctly - but then it will appear crooked to an average audiophile. So do correctly aligned carts in most other arms - they are anything but parallel to the headshell lines if parallel where it really counts, that is to say on record, at any A and B points according to any alignment chosen.
  
 Therefore, count yourself lucky with the Pioneer - kudos to them if they did not fall into each and every trap most other manufacturers did. The possibility to correct for the misalignment error that should not have been there in the first place is definitely a pro for conventional headshells that allow it. I would be interested in the independently measured tracking error of present Ortofon arms mounted according to manufacturer's instructions and fitted with 2M/PNP headshell; if it is indeed correct, kudos to Ortofon. If it is, this is a strong selling point, particularly for those not so comfortable with correct cart aligning themselves.
  
 Just do not expect every other arm will be correct. One I can for sure say is not correct for such headshell is Technics Sl 1210. I agree that 2M/PNP must have advantage in rigidity/freedom from resonances - but that can quickly be overshadowed by distortion resulting from geometric misalignment.
  
 My suggestion is to take any headshell that does allow for geometry correction, align the thing right using an alignment protractor and see if overhang and parallel mounted cartridge allow for the PNP headshell or not. Here the listing from ebay
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Black-Alloy-Plug-in-HEADSHELL-Head-Shell-for-Turntable-Record-Player-Disco-DJ-/350805504061?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51ada3303d
 showing one of the many sellers of the Technics clone headshell, that does allow to adjust geometry right for most cartridges/TTs and is inexpensive enough to use for geometry chek up only. Tad heavy - but it does not sound bad either.


----------



## Shaffer

bbophead said:


> FYI


 
  
 Well, call me amazed. Never did I expect to see my record collection in a meme when I opened this thread. I've added a more recent shot (about a year ago) below; the shelves are pretty full at this point. On a personal note, I'm pretty flattered. Just showed this to my wife and children.
  
 http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d26/blkgti/x085.jpg


----------



## OPR8R

shaffer said:


> Well, call me amazed. Never did I expect to see my record collection in a meme when I opened this thread. I've added a more recent shot (about a year ago) below; the shelves are pretty full at this point. On a personal note, I'm pretty flattered. Just showed this to my wife and children.
> 
> http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d26/blkgti/x085.jpg


 
 It is indeed an impressive collection.


----------



## Shaffer

opr8r said:


> It is indeed an impressive collection.


 
  
 Thank you very much. It only took 38 years to get there.


----------



## ]eep

Sure, that is an old school record collection. And an extensive one at that. I hope it's not 'the worst 5000 records ever made". I can't tell from here. :rolleyes:

This is mine... (among others, of course I have many LP's and quite some cd's too). But I guess the point of that picture is to show the effort that goes into a collection. Then mine qualifies too, it takes a lot of time and effort to get all the tags and covers logically indexed, informative and congruent. 

But ppl don't seem to know the difference between hardware and software. The carrier and what it contains. Meme's are thoughtpollution. Mindprogramming instead of individual thought. Try thinking, it might reveal something new...


----------



## Shaffer

]eep said:


> Sure, that is an old school record collection. And an extensive one at that. *I hope it's not 'the worst 5000 records ever made". I can't tell from here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





>





> How kind. Perhaps I should be the one rolling his eyes. Good luck to you. Indexing is hard work.


----------



## bbophead

Maybe something got lost in translation.


----------



## shipsupt

X


----------



## bbophead

Doubt it.


----------



## Shaffer

bbophead said:


> Maybe something got lost in translation.


 
  
 Maybe you're right. It's difficult to covey intent, especially as a non-native English speaker.
  
 In case anyone is wondering, 90% of the albums were new/sealed - NONE came from thrift stores lol. ~30% are radio promos (used to work in the industry),  ~70% are 1st pressings. I don't mean they're not reissues; they're first pressings of the title. Very little mainstream. Very little classical other than experiential/20th Century. To give an idea as to the scope, almost every time I see a ludicrously expensive LP listed on Amazon, like Cake's first album or the LZ box, blah, blah, blah, I have it. You want the original NIN albums? Got em. Original Clash albums? Why not? The complete Mogwai from the 90s? Yea. Hundreds of Roots Reggae titles from the '70s, mostly 1st pressings? Sure. FSOL originals including the 12"? Got em all. Hip-Hop, starting with Rapper's Delight, Run-DMC first album until current? A big dive into the Verve catalog from the 60s (mint pressings)? OK. Original Folways issues? No problem. I can go on and on.
  
 Edit: I should mention what it was like buying LPs in the 90s. Imagine growing up with LPs everywhere. Not just record stores, but essentially every place you went: drug stores, appliance shops.... Then, they all disappeared, except for the record stores. By ~1993 the record stores dumped all their vinyl, too; there was literally nowhere to buy new releases on LP. So, I found a record distributor still selling vinyl, opened an account - took a bit of work - and bought directly from him. I'd get a list of new releases every few weeks in the mail and fax in my order. If it weren't for that, LPs like the NIN titles I mentioned above, or Mogwai or Chemical Brothers, etc - simply would not exist in my life. It was easy and fun buying records in the 70s and 80s, but the 90s and early '00s weren't so great.


----------



## parbaked

I'd love to see a picture of your turntable. Very curious what you use to enjoy that collection!


----------



## Shaffer

parbaked said:


> I'd love to see a picture of your turntable. Very curious what you use to enjoy that collection!


 
  
  
 Unfortunately, I don't think I have the permissions to post pics yet. My 'table isn't terribly fancy: a modified (suspension, motor isolation, grounding) VPI HW19mkIII that I love with all my heart, a Rega RB600 arm and an AT33PTG/II cartridge. I quite proud of its setup. Took a while, as the cart broke in, but we're all dialed-in now. I've had a lot of TTs over the years; some were fairly elaborate, but I love the VPI. This is my third '19. This being said, the HW16.5 RCM is what makes playing vinyl a more pleasurable experience. I think it's a must-own sort of thing, if you're really into LPs. Not cheap, but a great investment. I've had mine for ~20 years and use it almost every day.


----------



## bbophead

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## analogsurviver

shaffer said:


> Maybe you're right. It's difficult to covey intent, especially as a non-native English speaker.
> 
> In case anyone is wondering, 90% of the albums were new/sealed - NONE came from thrift stores lol. ~30% are radio promos (used to work in the industry),  ~70% are 1st pressings. I don't mean they're not reissues; they're first pressings of the title. Very little mainstream. Very little classical other than experiential/20th Century. To give an idea as to the scope, almost every time I see a ludicrously expensive LP listed on Amazon, like Cake's first album or the LZ box, blah, blah, blah, I have it. You want the original NIN albums? Got em. Original Clash albums? Why not? The complete Mogwai from the 90s? Yea. Hundreds of Roots Reggae titles from the '70s, mostly 1st pressings? Sure. FSOL originals including the 12"? Got em all. Hip-Hop, starting with Rapper's Delight, Run-DMC first album until current? A big dive into the Verve catalog from the 60s (mint pressings)? OK. Original Folways issues? No problem. I can go on and on.
> 
> Edit: I should mention what it was like buying LPs in the 90s. Imagine growing up with LPs everywhere. Not just record stores, but essentially every place you went: drug stores, appliance shops.... Then, they all disappeared, except for the record stores. By ~1993 the record stores dumped all their vinyl, too; there was literally nowhere to buy new releases on LP. So, I found a record distributor still selling vinyl, opened an account - took a bit of work - and bought directly from him. I'd get a list of new releases every few weeks in the mail and fax in my order. If it weren't for that, LPs like the NIN titles I mentioned above, or Mogwai or Chemical Brothers, etc - simply would not exist in my life. It was easy and fun buying records in the 70s and 80s, but the 90s and early '00s weren't so great.


 
  
 This is impressive. Both the collection and the attitude in getting it together. As they would say in cycling : *CHAPEAU !*
  
 Especially for The Dark Age Of Vynil, say 1993 -2010. I started my CD retail days in 1993 and to illustrate just how hard, incoprehensible  and altogother weird was to obtain vinyl in mid 90s , this example. Since I did try to boost the sales of CDs, suppliers did try to cater to my private love of vinyl. Once, the vinyl version of Lynyrd Skynyrd Greatest Hits http://www.discogs.com/Lynyrd-Skynyrd-Skynyrds-Innyrds-Their-Greatest-Hits/release/2926058
 ( giulty as charged, did miss them when "current"), which has a catalog number of the usual 6 digit-1 ( -1 indicating vinyl, -2 indicating CD and -4 indicating cassette ), it had to be ordered and re-ordered THREE TIMES before finally a non polycarbonat version arrived.
 Those guys simply took -1 as a mistake and would keep on sending CD ad nuaseaum if the supplier did not send them a fax that he actually wants to get the vinyl.
  
 Once-upon-a-time, Yugoslavia did have at least 4 record pressing plants and at least two mastering facilities. After breakup, Slovenia was left with zero and anything vinyl from then on has to be imported. Mid 90, a few years after the new state was born, it was anything but easy time to get anything vinyl, on the already heavily depleted world market during the CD craze. Things are much better now, but of course can not be compared to vast variety available say in US.


----------



## parbaked

shaffer said:


> Unfortunately, I don't think I have the permissions to post pics yet. My 'table isn't terribly fancy: a modified (suspension, motor isolation, grounding) VPI HW19mkIII that I love with all my heart, a Rega RB600 arm and an AT33PTG/II cartridge. I quite proud of its setup. Took a while, as the cart broke in, but we're all dialed-in now. I've had a lot of TTs over the years; some were fairly elaborate, but I love the VPI. This is my third '19. This being said, the HW16.5 RCM is what makes playing vinyl a more pleasurable experience. I think it's a must-own sort of thing, if you're really into LPs. Not cheap, but a great investment. I've had mine for ~20 years and use it almost every day.


 
  
 Yes, you need to buy a few more albums before you get permission to post images!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I somehow knew you would have a simple, excellent setup and would enjoy content listening.
 Congratulations and thanks for sharing.


----------



## analogsurviver

Another collateral damage : http://www.npr.org/2012/02/10/146697658/why-vinyl-sounds-better-than-cd-or-not


----------



## ]eep

Of course I did not mean to belittle Shaffers collection. That's why I put the smilie there. I suppose some jokes are hard to appreciate. This one wasn't particularly good or kind. Sorry bout that. But that's all beside the point and not what I was trying to convey. 

No, my comment concerns the so-called 'meme' (and I don't like that Dawkins guy nor his bs ideas). Use someones picture of his record collection as a transcendent idea that is somehow mysteriously inherited in other ppls brains... without even knowing what it is. Just a picture of the exterior has no bearing on the contents thereof, nor on the effort to get there, nor it's value, monetary or artistically. That's why I posted the bland picture of my collection on HD that shows absolutely nothing. but there's >1800 albums on it. In a very wide range of styles, geographic locations and ages. From 1200AD to now, from the first microgrooves to newest 24/196. 

And to be frank, even though my record collection is only about 20% of shaffers there are plenty of bad records in there. And plenty that didn't stand the test of time, showing my bad judgement in my adolescent years 30 years back. They are in there, but I really have no urge to play them. Just leave them neatly organised according to alphabet in their neat little place. And stay there. 

Furthermore, English is just my third language in which I have no trouble expressing myself in. But culture is something completely different. Americans have very little sense of humor when it comes to their ego. Embarrassing situations, especially concerning bodily functions are supposedly hilarious, but oh my, just don't mock someones property because it's an extension of their.... (you can fill in the blanks). Europeans do not exist. And even in my little (17million ppl) country we have about 8 different (native) cultures with different mentalities, languages etc. With one common 'flaw': we don't beat around the bush. We know everything about the US, it's origins, constitution, demographics, it's culture. And you probably don't even know what our country is called. So there. It's a big world. 

I posted my player a while ago but I'll be happy to repost it:




Some eyecandy.

As you can probably guess this is my medium of choice. But not what gets the most hours. That is that tiny 2.5" HD with plenty of choice, quality and ease of use. I use my own modified DAC that takes the music almost to the level of LP playback. But never quite with the same musical commitment. I have always maintained the position that vinyl playback sounds better than CD. This has always been so on my system. At one point (before the Clearaudio+Koetsu) with modified tube cd-player vs Pro-ject Perspectice+DV Karat 17MkII it came very close. Now I'm really content with my NOS-dac + Foobar. My cd-collection is as dead as VHS. The HD is the everyday whisk*e*y, LP is the 16 YO single malt.


----------



## longbowbbs

Jeep, I love the post. Glad to have you here!


----------



## Clayton SF

longbowbbs said:


> Jeep, I love the post. Glad to have you here!


 
 x2,
 yes!


----------



## analogsurviver

longbowbbs said:


> Jeep, I love the post. Glad to have you here!


 
  
 x3.


----------



## bbophead

@ jeep
  
 I'm glad you have a sense of humor.


----------



## Shaffer

]eep said:


> Of course I did not mean to belittle Shaffers collection. *That's why I put the smilie there. *I suppose some jokes are hard to appreciate. This one wasn't particularly good or kind. Sorry bout that. But that's all beside the point and not what I was trying to convey.





> _To be fair, the emoticon you chose rolled his eyes. That's not friendly and likely the cause of the misunderstanding. If it were a smile, the read-intent would have been different._





> Furthermore, English is just my third language in which I have no trouble expressing myself in. But culture is something completely different. Americans have very little sense of humor when it comes to their ego. Embarrassing situations, especially concerning bodily functions are supposedly hilarious, but oh my, just don't mock someones property because it's an extension of their.... (you can fill in the blanks). Europeans do not exist. And even in my little (17million ppl) country we have about 8 different (native) cultures with different mentalities, languages etc. With one common 'flaw': we don't beat around the bush. We know everything about the US, it's origins, constitution, demographics, it's culture. And you probably don't even know what our country is called. So there. It's a big world.





> _It's rather astounding how you can group Americans into a single demographic black hole. I speak more than 3 languages and I've lived in Italy, Austria, and Eastern Europe, aside from the US. This is a friendly forum and I won't dissect the logic above, but I will say that I (as an American) find your comment very offensive. _


 
  
 Reply in italics.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah, the very idea that 330 million Americans all act in the same way is beyond silly.

That said, ]eep's photo of his VPI is beyond awesome


----------



## bbophead

shaffer said:


> ]eep said:
> 
> 
> > Of course I did not mean to belittle Shaffers collection. *That's why I put the smilie there. *I suppose some jokes are hard to appreciate. This one wasn't particularly good or kind. Sorry bout that. But that's all beside the point and not what I was trying to convey.
> ...


 
  
 Generalities.  I guess all Dutchmen use them, along with smoking dope.  Not that there's anything wrong with smoking dope.


----------



## Shaffer

bbophead said:


> Generalities.  I guess all Dutchmen use them, along with smoking dope. * Not that there's anything wrong with smoking dope.*


 
  
 It's hard to disagree.


----------



## parbaked

bbophead said:


> Not that there's anything wrong with smoking dope.


 
  
 Unless you forget to you lift your tonearm when your LP is done


----------



## dosley01

parbaked said:


> Unless you forget to you lift your tonearm when your LP is done


 
  
 New advertising campaign slogan for Q-Up - "If you're going to smoke up, buy the Q-up!"


----------



## ]eep

thank you. It's a Clearaudio Performance BTW. 

Even a bad sense of humor is a sense of humor?  I see that i picked the rolleyes smilie on how it looks. Better had picked the  



> It's rather astounding how you can group Americans into a single demographic black hole.



Again, that is not what I was saying. What I mean is that most Americans speak only English and have no idea just how many cultures there are in Europe, even in such a smal country as mine. Here you can follow the border between different cultures. In America everythng is jumbled all together like a big milkshake. A Chinese is from China and speaks Chinese, an Indian is from India etc. What I talked about with an old friend yesterday (one that seen a lot more of the world than I) is that Americans and Dutch look the most alike but in essence are the most diverse in personality. 


> but I will say that *I *(as an American) *find* your comment very offensive.



Again, that is not my intent. Maybe the answer ins in bold? Americans are so easily offended? Don't be. Know who you are.



> Generalities. I guess all Dutchmen use them, along with smoking dope. Not that there's anything wrong with smoking dope.


 
That is soo true. And we kill our elderly. We all live under the sea, walk on wooden shoes and worship our king... And you watch too much Foxnews...


----------



## OPR8R

]eep said:


> thank you. It's a Clearaudio Performance BTW
> 
> Even a bad sense of humor is a sense of humor?  I see that i picked the rolleyes smilie on how it looks. Better had picked the
> 
> ...


 
  
 You're fine.  One of the things about American culture is that many of us are hypersensitive about our "exceptional-ism", and since our culture also reinforces tribal behavior, some of these readers won't accept you meant no offense.  In a way, they're sort of proving your point.


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> thank you. It's a Clearaudio Performance BTW
> 
> Even a bad sense of humor is a sense of humor?  I see that i picked the rolleyes smilie on how it looks. Better had picked the
> 
> ...


 
  
 If I watched any Faux News, it would be too much.


----------



## OPR8R

bbophead said:


> If I watched any Faux News, it would be too much.


 
 I apologize in advance if you've already answered this question, but what are those lights?  I think I need/want one.


----------



## bbophead

> >
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize in advance if you've already answered this question, but what are those lights?  I think I need/want one.


 
 I confess.  I broke the rules.  These are not my turntables, just tt porn I grabbed off the interwebs a few years ago so, no, I don't know what the lights are.
  
 But they sure are purdy.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




​


----------



## OPR8R

bbophead said:


> I confess.  I broke the rules.  These are not my turntables, just tt porn I grabbed off the interwebs a few years ago so, no, I don't know what the lights are.
> 
> But they sure are purdy.
> 
> ...


 
 I'll check Foxnews.com to see if I can find anything there about them.
  
 edit:
  
 Found this just buy searching floorstanding lamp.  LOL.
  
 http://www.lampsplus.com/products/gen-2-i-tower-silver-warm-white-led-floor-lamp__k9442.html
  
 edit2:
  
 As nice as those lamps are, I think this might work as well and is little less expensive.
 http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50180956/
  
 I know I'm the only one asking....


----------



## parbaked

]eep said:


> thank you. It's a Clearaudio Performance BTW
> 
> Even a bad sense of humor is a sense of humor?  I see that i picked the rolleyes smilie on how it looks. Better had picked the
> 
> ...


 
 Wow, your comments make you appear very ignorant about America and Americans, but at least you have a nice turntable!
 Please stop this discussion. It is offensive and not appropriate for this thread.


----------



## ]eep

The comment about me being ignorant about Americans is just a gotspe. I must say I'm really offended by such an ignorant remark.  

I agree about stopping that stupid discussion. Not about the offensiveness, but its plainly off-topic. What iked me is the (to me rather obvious) lack of insight of what is at hand. Remember Rene Magrittes painting - ceci n'est pas une pipe? La trahison des images? This is not my turntable, it's just a picture of it. 


This is more what this topic is about (and the background for my laptop that plays the HD-collection). So there, end of discussion, full stop, fugeddaboudit.


----------



## Punnisher

Love the setup and picture. Would you mind posting a full resolution version? Would love that as a desktop background as well.


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> The comment about me being ignorant about Americans is just a gotspe. I must say I'm really offended by such an ignorant remark.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hallehlujah!!!
  
 For those of us not conversant in Yiddish:  http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotspe&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgotspe%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den
  
 Insight?  Shirley you jest.


----------



## OPR8R

Zedd's Clarity (Deluxe Edition) is available for preorder.  Very exciting, for me anyway.  I still listen to the .mp3 version of this album regularly, and he's adding some new stuff.
  
 http://www.soundstagedirect.com/zedd-clarity-deluxe-edition-vinyl-records.shtml


----------



## MorbidToaster

opr8r said:


> Zedd's Clarity (Deluxe Edition) is available for preorder.  Very exciting, for me anyway.  I still listen to the .mp3 version of this album regularly, and he's adding some new stuff.
> 
> http://www.soundstagedirect.com/zedd-clarity-deluxe-edition-vinyl-records.shtml




YES. LPs.


----------



## Clayton SF

]eep said:


> Sure, that is an old school record collection. And an extensive one at that. I hope it's not 'the worst 5000 records ever made". I can't tell from here.


 
  
 Hehehe. I had a what I thought was very large record collection and 3/4 of it was terrible. Hehehe. I worked in a record store and would get all of these promos to take home. It did look impressive though. (And still does!)


----------



## longbowbbs

Quantity over Quality I say!


----------



## Clayton SF

longbowbbs said:


> Quantity over Quality I say!


 
  
 I may have some hidden treasures in my collection and not know it! Yah never know.


----------



## longbowbbs

clayton sf said:


> longbowbbs said:
> 
> 
> > Quantity over Quality I say!
> ...


----------



## Shaffer

clayton sf said:


> Hehehe. I had a what I thought was very large record collection and 3/4 of it was terrible. Hehehe. I worked in a record store and would get all of these promos to take home. It did look impressive though. (And still does!)






 


If I may ask, why do you keep the the bad records, especially as they represent 3/4 of the whole? How big is your collection?



FWIW, when I was in a position to keep a number of promos, I'd sell or give away 95% and hang on to the good stuff. Seems kinda obvious, as this sort of thing goes. At that time, some promos were issued on special vinyl, like Quiex II as an example, and many offered alternate masterings. They were meant for airplay. That's the kind of stuff that's worth hanging on to, AFAIK, record stores almost never got the special pressings, just promos of released titles.


----------



## Eee Pee

Cause you don't get rid of records!  It's a rule!


----------



## Clayton SF

shaffer said:


> If I may ask, why do you keep the the bad records, especially as they represent 3/4 of the whole? How big is your collection?
> 
> FWIW, when I was in a position to keep a number of promos, I'd sell or give away 95% and hang on to the good stuff. Seems kinda obvious, as this sort of thing goes. At that time, some promos were issued on special vinyl, like Quiex II as an example, and many offered alternate masterings. They were meant for airplay. That's the kind of stuff that's worth hanging on to, AFAIK, record stores almost never got the special pressings, just promos of released titles.


 
  
 Well to tell you the truth, I've given away a lot of records in the past and regretted it later so I thought I'd hold on to the ones I inherited or got as gifts until I really need the shelf real estate. At least 1/2 of them are from the Disco age. I can't even look at them but who knows, maybe, they might be worth something in 20 years. Then again. I also have some old 60s records like Jimi Hendrix Experience from an England pressing and even an Abbey Road 1st issue English pressing that is in okay shape but I still want to hold on to them. I guess you could call me a pack rat when it comes to vinyl.


----------



## Nick 214

Here's a craptastic shot courtesy of a beat iPhone 4: 
  

  
 Just got the Clearaudio Virtuoso set up last night... 
  
 NK


----------



## OPR8R

nick 214 said:


> Here's a craptastic shot courtesy of a beat iPhone 4:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Better the TT than an iPhone upgrade


----------



## Nick 214

opr8r said:


> Better the TT than an iPhone upgrade


 
  
 Oh but the 5s is so tempting!
  
 Then again, my 4 is jailbroken and highly modified... 
 NK


----------



## analogsurviver

opr8r said:


> Better the TT than an iPhone upgrade


 
  
 +1.


----------



## analogsurviver

Today I became aware of yet another gizmo we are "supposed" to use.. 
  
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/furutech-demag-lp-demagnetizer/?utm_campaign=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=email-164
  
http://www.soundstage.com/vinyl/vinyl200702.htm
  
 As it obviously is not from yesterday - does anybody here have any experience with it? If possible, backed up by needle drops of the very same LP "before" and "after", done under exactly the same conditions/equipment. That kind of $ is justifiable ONLY if it really does help sonics - hand wound, etc, even if done by virgin Dodo birds, won't cut it. The current Absolute Sound review might simply be a "reminder" to help clear the stock.
  
 I do have a sizeable collection >1K LPs acquired in a single purchase, all of which leave sonically much to be desired. Not scratched, not worn out, not tracked too lightly, would achieve from mint to minimum VG rating  - yet they simply do not "sing". 98% classiccal collection, with some recordings to artistically die for. It is bad enough to start listening to a piece of music and in the middle of first side switch off the system in aghast and go flushing the dissapointment with the minimum appropriate amount of beer in the nearest pub.
 This is NOT a happy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Remnants of the vicinity of *THE MONSTER MAGNET *





 at some point in the history of these LP ? Anyone with similar experience ?


----------



## ]eep

I also have a lot of classical LP's from the beginning of the digital era that proudly (but mistakenly) boasted 'digital (re)master' that sound really flat and disappointing. And some pressings are just plain bad, like a King Crimson album I had that sounded like it was coming out of the basement. Now I have another copy that sounds just fine. 

I also bought a complete collection a few months ago, about 800 pcs, most of them handled with TLC. That was really a collection, undeniably quality music even without accounting for different tastes (mostly old style hardrock and related). Some were even treated with Permostat. But since I'm carefull with my Koetsu I'm washing all of them with an Okkie Nokki cleaner en treating with Permostat. That way they are really clean and never get staticly charged again. 

Since vinyl is a plastic when you move or rub it against another surface it charges. I don't see how that has anything to do with the carbon blackener in it (hardening additive). That makes the vinyl harder and more wearproof. Leaving it out is not the best idea. Colored vinyl is softer. Permostat is much cheaper, about 50 c /lp, and works permanently. I don't need a $2000 apparatus for that.


----------



## palmfish

$2715.00

OMG.....that is absolutely hilarious!


----------



## basman

palmfish said:


> $2715.00
> 
> OMG.....that is absolutely hilarious!


 
  
 I love crispy music and that 2K machine has no place on my audio rack


----------



## Nick 214

]eep said:


> I also have a lot of classical LP's from the beginning of the digital era that proudly (but mistakenly) boasted 'digital (re)master' that sound really flat and disappointing. And some pressings are just plain bad, like a King Crimson album I had that sounded like it was coming out of the basement. Now I have another copy that sounds just fine.
> 
> I also bought a complete collection a few months ago, about 800 pcs, most of them handled with TLC. That was really a collection, undeniably quality music even without accounting for different tastes (mostly old style hardrock and related). Some were even treated with Permostat. But since I'm carefull with my Koetsu I'm washing all of them with an Okkie Nokki cleaner en treating with Permostat. That way they are really clean and never get staticly charged again.
> 
> Since vinyl is a plastic when you move or rub it against another surface it charges. I don't see how that has anything to do with the carbon blackener in it (hardening additive). That makes the vinyl harder and more wearproof. Leaving it out is not the best idea. Colored vinyl is softer. Permostat is much cheaper, about 50 c /lp, and works permanently. I don't need a $2000 apparatus for that.


 
  
 Those "DIGITAL" classical LPs are so bright that they bring me to tears! 
  
 I often see them in the classical stacks while I search for the elusive DMMs.
  
 NK


----------



## analogsurviver

Well, the trouble with those LPs is that they are NOT digital remasters. I have snippets of the say whole opera or single symphony etc in my collection from before, and they are the same performance and "hopefully" same master. After getting the taste of the appetizer on what I already owned, was the main course bitter dissapointment. I will elaborate on this in the future.
  
 As felt from my initial post regarding this Furutech DeMag device, I am skeptical about it at best.I was hoping somebody with first hand experince will chime in.
 BUT - these guys are also making the sole ( range of ) machines to flatten the warped vinyl. Furutech definitely belongs to the premium high(ly) (over)priced manufacturers, offering niche products at the punishing price. 
  
 There always were audio products costing way above average and causing outcries and criticism from those of us who can not afford them. I grew up to learn not to be too vocal about it - because in at least few instances, those "overpriced BS products" that at the time of their introduction seemed ludicrous to most, proved out to be the only real solution to the practical problem.
  
 With that said, I would on the contrary buy the following in a heartbeat, given the money:
  
http://klaudio.com/kd-cln-lp200-lp-vinyl-record-ultrasonic-cleaner-dryer
  
 It appears to be the first RCM without any physical contact with the record - no scracthing, no solutions but distilled water, no pushing unmentionables deep into the very bottom of the groove from where the classic vacuum RCMs are inherently uncapable of removing it. They work reasonably well with dirty vinyl - but when cleaning new unplayed vinyl to remove molding grease etc, you might or may notice increase of noise. Slight, but still not as quiet as playing that disc as it came from the factory. In order to apply vacuum, classic RCM has somehow to seal the surface - and it pushes the bristles on the nozzle as hard as vacuum would  allow against the grooves. If unmentionables are trapped between record surface and bristles and held there by the pressure, as in very bottom of the groove - how on earth can suction then remove them? 
  
 And I sincerely hope that those non-singing LPs can (not) be helped by anything else but Furutech DeMag even after such thorough cleaning - only one way to figure that one out...
  
 Time to start buying lottery tickets, I guess. Taken together, that in Europe means over 8 K, after the customs etc. Brrr...


----------



## ]eep

Very interesting and very expensive. I guess if you have a big collection >10k LP's it would be well worth it. I like the ultrasonic cleaning bit, but I'm not that enthusiastic about the blow-drying bit. If your water get dirtier water contains specs of debris and dust that get left behind in the blowdrying. Same disadvantage as the cheap and cheerfull Knosti Disco-Antistat. You need to keep refreshing the water.

The common wetting, brushing and suction RCM like my Okki Nokkie lets the crud soak, whirl it up and sucks all the dirty water off. There is hardly no mineral deposit left. Not even if I use tapwater (our tapwater is very soft, hardly no CaCO3 in it at all). You apply only clean water+detergent.


----------



## palmfish

I use warm water and a drop of clear dish soap in a salad bowl. In the kitchen sink with a 2" wide paint brush then blot dry with a clean microfiber towel and air dry in a dish rack.


----------



## bbophead

palmfish said:


> I use warm water and a drop of clear dish soap in a salad bowl. In the kitchen sink with a 2" wide paint brush then blot dry with a clean microfiber towel and air dry in a dish rack.


 
  
 Pics or it didn't happen.


----------



## Eee Pee

Yeah, c'mon palmfishbro, lets see it!


----------



## palmfish

Putting me on the spot...LOL

I had a video on YouTube about a year ago but I took it down. I'll post it up later tonight for your enjoyment.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Very interesting and very expensive. I guess if you have a big collection >10k LP's it would be well worth it. I like the ultrasonic cleaning bit, but I'm not that enthusiastic about the blow-drying bit. If your water get dirtier water contains specs of debris and dust that get left behind in the blowdrying. Same disadvantage as the cheap and cheerfull Knosti Disco-Antistat. You need to keep refreshing the water.
> 
> The common wetting, brushing and suction RCM like my Okki Nokkie lets the crud soak, whirl it up and sucks all the dirty water off. There is hardly no mineral deposit left. Not even if I use tapwater (our tapwater is very soft, hardly no CaCO3 in it at all). You apply only clean water+detergent.


 
  
 I stumbled upon this machine while searching for the Audio Desk ultrasonic RCM from Germany already discussed either on "photograph" or "setup" threads 
  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rod79YwW4PA
  
 I would also prefer some vacuum drying, but NOT contact with a brush - just vacuum so that any larger droplets that can leave residue of whatever is in there besides pure H2O do get removed before this can happen. 
  
 Here a nice vid on the KL Audio http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP3mzyx1TSQ
  
 And VPI 16.5 vs Okki Nokki  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4jsr13V6ao


----------



## analogsurviver

palmfish said:


> Putting me on the spot...LOL
> 
> I had a video on YouTube about a year ago but I took it down. I'll post it up later tonight for your enjoyment.


 
  
 Looking forward to see it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .


----------



## Clayton SF

_*The Velvet Vinyl Outlet*_ is a favorite store of mine. The problem is, there is so much that I can take back with me when I return to California. Vinyl is heavy.


----------



## analogsurviver

clayton sf said:


> _*The Velvet Vinyl Outlet*_ is a favorite store of mine. The problem is, there is so much that I can take back with me when I return to California. Vinyl is heavy.


 
  
 Just yesterday I met a friend who had recently returned from a trip to Japan. He brought as much vinyl as still reasonable ( about 25 kg, two persons travelling ) considering the air tickets, etc.
  
 It was either Tamura output transformers for a SET amp or discs - he chose wisely, from the brief conversations we had considering the titles he got. Transformers can be had in Europe ( at a price ) , those LPs most probably not.
  
 He said no shop did offer transport to Europe.
  
 Another "Japanese" LP story : it had to travel round the globe minus 137 km ( distance from where I live and where it was recorded ) to finally finally reach me : recording from 1964, found in a record shop recently opened by an acquaintance who moved on his own:


----------



## bbophead

I'd love to hear that.


----------



## OPR8R

bbophead said:


> I'd love to hear that.


 
 Seriously +1
  
 One of my two or three favorite violin concertos.


----------



## Clayton SF

I've always loved that Fontana logo.


----------



## ]eep

1964 is a good year indeed... 

I watched the video about the RCM's. It sure takes a while for the record to clean. The unattended part is good but not for me probably. I even forget the tea while I'm coocking the water and a few hours later I'm thinking:"man I'm thirsty"  
I have no problem with a soft-haired brush touching the surface (Okki Nokki uses a goathair brush) that is intended to be scanned by a diamond with a very high local surface pressure. If the record is really worn grey or scratched and dirty to the groove I use woodglue. 

For the record (oh, the pun :rolleyes the Okki Nokki is a *Dutch* product (not German, even your "Dutch" is soooo wrong. Dutch = Deutsch=swearword. We are Netherlanders, I am a Gelderlander to be exact). I know the 'inventor' and spoke to him about how he came up with it. He looked at some of the other really expensive types like the VPI an Clearaudio and thought: "It's not a very complicated machine, I should be able to do that much cheaper". Het started out with a small vacuum cleaner engine and voila... It started out at 300 euros (now 400) which is less than half the price of the (hardly available) VPI etc. The name comes from dutch dialect from the Hague meaning 'ok'. It's not the ultimate in quality or durability but the average consumer has no need for that if you only use it occasionally. 
And my dealer brought it to my door at no extra cost. Which is allways nice.


----------



## analogsurviver

clayton sf said:


> I've always loved that Fontana logo.


 
  


opr8r said:


> Seriously +1
> 
> One of my two or three favorite violin concertos.


 
  


bbophead said:


> I'd love to hear that.


 
  
 In this case, the recording/record/label is just "the middle man". It is played by Igor Ozim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Ozim
 under the baton of Milan Horvat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan_Horvat
 Although Igor Ozim is my townman, I hardly remember ever hearing him live. He is one of the most in demand violin professors on the globe and returns to his homeland mainly for summer master classes like this one 
http://www.velanensis.si/21-mednarodna-poletna-violinska-sola-igorja-ozima-avgust-2013/?lang=en
 Here some first hand experiences of his students.
http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=8338
  
 To me, Mr. Ozim is more of a demi-god myth than anything else, every time his name pops up it is accompanied by awe and admiration. Finally getting something from him on vinyl really is great. Less great is the fact that this copy has been played and lightly tracked and the more you are nearing inner grooves ( everyone reading this should know what comes next ...), the more 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 you get at the guy/gal that did this to this wonderful record. 
  
 Milan Horvat is, despite his age, frequent guest conductor of Slovenian Philharmonic. After a concert under his baton I enjoyed immensely, I asked some friends from the orchestra how it is like to play under him. " B****y tyrant ..." was the most frequent answer - but that was in the end meant in a positive way. It simply proves times again conductor has to be # 1. The playing that night was a fair cut above the normal high level usually achieved by the orchestra of that particular period.
  
 And good conductors are to musicians exatly like VERY demanding bosses to other mere mortals...we are all humans in the end. But it is equally true :
 no pain - no gain. That is why Mr. Horvat is always a welcome guest here.


----------



## OPR8R

This may be of interest to those of you with Rega (RB303) + Ortofon combos.  I have a Rega with an Ortofon 2M fitted to it, which had been installed when I received it.  One of the things I noticed while researching my TT setup, is that the Ortofon 2M (Black in my case) almost looks designed to be fitted to the RB303 tonearm.  I assume many headshells are shaped this way?  For some reason though, my cartridge had been fitted a few millimeters from the tip of the tonearm.  I didn't think much of it, until recently.
  
I've been listening to lots of vinyl lately because I have a new phono stage I'm trying to break-in.  It's a great phono stage but it didn't solve a problem I'd hoped it would: I'd get static/crackle in my left channel on certain notes played at certain volumes.  I knew it wasn't my headphones because it only happened when listening to records.  Once I got tubes rolled and was satisfied nothing on the phono stage end was going to fix the problem, I looked at the tonearm/cartidge, which is where I should have started.
  
 I wish I would have gone at this problem in a more scientific manner, but my first try at fixing it on the TT end was to move the cartridge all the way forward, but this also meant I had to readjust tracking force and stuff.  This instantly fixed my problem.  It also improved overall sound quality.  I don't know if I had incorrectly set the tracking force (I'm sure I triple checked this), or if the Ortofon is meant to be mounted at the end of the RB303.  But it sounds and looks way better, so I'm leaving it.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 TL/DR; If you have an Ortofon 2M (mounted on a Rega), and are having issues, check its position on the headshell/tonearm.


----------



## bbophead

Got the same TT/Cart but my dealer set it up for me.  I've had no problems.


----------



## OPR8R

bbophead said:


> Got the same TT/Cart but my dealer set it up for me.  I've had no problems.


 
  
 I'd previously noticed yours is setup the same way.  I should say my "problem" wasn't really always apparent.  In fact, I only noticed it on certain albums.  However, you haven't noticed any issues, so it makes me think I had tracking force setting issues.
  
 edit: updated with picture.  made for each other?


----------



## ]eep

Yes of course the Ortofon are made to fit the Rega arm. It is fitted in almost all of the players in the pricebracket the Ortofons are sold in with the exception of Pro-ject (which is originally based on the ubiquitous Rega). And they look and almost the same allthough it doesn't look as symbiotic.
 

I just read that VPI is launching a new RCM called the MW-1 Cyclone. It improves on the old 16.5 in a lot of ways the video VPI16.5 + Okki Nikki was saying. But $1000? :rolleyes:
It says: "The motor drives the platter rim rather than the center shaft, which means you can press down as hard as you like and the center motor shaft will not bend or break, nor will the platter "give"." 
Yes thats great if you are applying Permostat right after cleaning like me. Only the platter is still recessed in the box so you can't really work in there. Doh!


One more big + for the Okki Nokki: it fits - exacttly- in a compartment of the Ikea Expedit that is ideal for LP storage. And I mean exactly, not 1 mm room to the sides. It almost feels air-dampened suspension if you slide it in.


----------



## Shaffer

I'm a little puzzled: are you guys not using alignment protractors, along with other tools, to setup your cartridges?


----------



## OPR8R

shaffer said:


> I'm a little puzzled: are you guys not using alignment protractors, along with other tools, to setup your cartridges?


 
  
 Nope.  We got ours with the cartridge installed.  I assume since it was professionally done that a protractor was used.  I only fiddled with mine because I had an issue.


----------



## longbowbbs

opr8r said:


> shaffer said:
> 
> 
> > I'm a little puzzled: are you guys not using alignment protractors, along with other tools, to setup your cartridges?
> ...



You are clearly not obsessing enough over your alignment.Please turn in your TT and membership card.


----------



## bbophead

longbowbbs said:


> You are clearly not obsessing enough over your alignment.Please turn in your TT and membership card.


 
 A good LOL!


----------



## OPR8R

longbowbbs said:


> You are clearly not obsessing enough over your alignment.Please turn in your TT and membership card.




I hadn't thought if it as obsession. Maybe I should sell my TT and vinyl before I get worse


----------



## Silent One

It's gonna get worse. But here, you'll find excellent support. Either we all sit on the wagon or be found down the street 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




raising sand..._ and tonearms._


----------



## OPR8R

silent one said:


> It's gonna get worse. But here, you'll find excellent support. Either we all sit on the wagon or be found down the street
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## palmfish

I'm waiting for cassettes to follow suit and make a comeback. Then we can obsess over bias, calibration, Dolby NR, demagnetizing, etc...


----------



## Silent One

The comeback... that would be exciting!


----------



## analogsurviver

palmfish said:


> I'm waiting for cassettes to follow suit and make a comeback. Then we can obsess over bias, calibration, Dolby NR, demagnetizing, etc...


 
  
 If that really happens, I hope it would be accompanied by re-introduction of really good tapes, both for the bang for the buck and Uber Alles categories.
  
 Trouble is, if you are environmentalist and analog audiophile/tapehead, that is similar to vegetarian running a slaughterhouse....


----------



## OPR8R

Am I the only one who wasn't sad to see cassette go?  I wish we could have vinyl back the way it was, but to *analogsurviver*'s point, what a mess cassette was.


----------



## Skylab

What needs to make more of a come back is reel to reel! Not cassette.


----------



## palmfish

skylab said:


> What needs to make more of a come back is reel to reel! Not cassette.




Yes!

Now where did I leave my tray, tape, and razor blades...


----------



## Shaffer

opr8r said:


> Nope.  We got ours with the cartridge installed.  I assume since it was professionally done that a protractor was used.  I only fiddled with mine because I had an issue.


 
  
 If I may, I worked as a setup specialist at a well-known (analog) dealer a time back. I sold other gear, sure, but my main function revolved around setting up (and selling) turntables. If you bought a Rega, for example, spending more than 10 minutes on its setup would cost me money. Not even 10 minutes. If you wanted me to come to your house for more serious setup, I billed (on average) at ~$2 per minute, as there was a lot more effort put into the process and the outcome was self-evident. At the risk of stating the brutally obvious, even a toothpick will produce a sound from a spinning LP. Making a sound isn't what quality analog replay is about. The better your 'table is setup, the more you will benefit, directly. Good setup takes time. A lot of time. No dealer is able to do that for you. Not today. Not for so little money. There's no better time to learn how to do it, yourself. Good luck.


----------



## bbophead

shaffer said:


> opr8r said:
> 
> 
> > Nope.  We got ours with the cartridge installed.  I assume since it was professionally done that a protractor was used.  I only fiddled with mine because I had an issue.
> ...


 
  
  
  
 I live sixty miles out.  Told them what I wanted, gave them a week and then picked it up.  Whenever I go to the store in the middle of the day (yes, it's the last of the brick and mortars in Austin), more often than not, the staff is not occupied.  I think they have plenty of time to set up a Rega since they've been doing it for at least the last thirty years.  I buy a new turntable, on average, about every ten to fifteen years, and getting good at setting one up would be a little hard.  So, I leave it to someone who does it on a daily basis and have had excellent results.  After all, I pay close to list and the dealer gets to earn some of the profit margin.  What am I missing?


----------



## parbaked

bbophead said:


> What am I missing?


 
 Tweaking and obsessing instead of listening to music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 Some like it others don't.
 There is no doubt one can hear the difference, but that doesn't mean that's how one needs to spend one's time and effort. 
 Nothing wrong with buying a nice deck and having a good shop or tech set it up and enjoying it!


----------



## analogsurviver

shaffer said:


> If I may, I worked as a setup specialist at a well-known (analog) dealer a time back. I sold other gear, sure, but my main function revolved around setting up (and selling) turntables. If you bought a Rega, for example, spending more than 10 minutes on its setup would cost me money. Not even 10 minutes. If you wanted me to come to your house for more serious setup, I billed (on average) at ~$2 per minute, as there was a lot more effort put into the process and the outcome was self-evident. At the risk of stating the brutally obvious, even a toothpick will produce a sound from a spinning LP. Making a sound isn't what quality analog replay is about. The better your 'table is setup, the more you will benefit, directly. Good setup takes time. A lot of time. No dealer is able to do that for you. Not today. Not for so little money. There's no better time to learn how to do it, yourself. Good luck.


 
  
 +10 to the power of X. X can be any positive number > say 2.
  
 Any really decent cartridge installation will take AT LEAST about a day. Not working 8 hours day, but - day, from when you wake up and till fall down drained and exhausted enough not to want to listen to anything anymore. And fine nursing that cart to full potential may involve very careful monitoring
 the performance with repeated measurements during the first say 100 hours. 
  
 Try to put that in money - no dealer will be prepared to do it, even if he is, quite unlikely, in the possesion of knowledge, equipment and experience required. Even with 4 and 5 figure price carts.
  
 Now *think* what kind of adjustment can you get with new tables < 500 bucks ...


----------



## OPR8R

That makes sense.  As I recall, I had to wait an extra few days for cartridge installation.  But why wouldn't a shop hire full time salaried employees that just do work?


----------



## analogsurviver

opr8r said:


> Am I the only one who wasn't sad to see cassette go?  I wish we could have vinyl back the way it was, but to *analogsurviver*'s point, what a mess cassette was.


 
  
 My point was obiously not put clear enough.
  
 Analog is unfortunately much less enviroment friendly than digital. Those who have  ( had ) "luck" to live close to the record pressing plant know damn well what I mean. And analog tape, be it cassette or open reel, contains some of the nastiest heavy metals you can possibly think of. What is good for the sound can be very detrimental for enviroment.
  
 Kind of the classic scene from the movie Lenny ( played by Dustin Hoffman, 1974 ): bar ( a night club ), a georgeous stripper doing her act, guys drooling...
  
 Guy A : Would you ... her ?
 Guy B: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Guy A: Would you marry her ?
 Guy B: *Are YOU*



* crazy *



*!!!!?*
  
 And no, I absolutely do not think cassette, at least in its mature swan song incarnation, was ( IS ) a mess. More about this some other time, results and the verdict may well be the shock that would prove to be hard to stomach to most.


----------



## Shaffer

opr8r said:


> That makes sense.  As I recall, I had to wait an extra few days for cartridge installation.  *But why wouldn't a shop hire full time salaried employees that just do work?*


 
  
 Because, virtually no-one is willing to pay for the service. I mean, pay what it's worth. I guy with a $2000 budget doesn't see the value in investing several hundred into better performance - ironic, I know. Many who buy more advanced 'tables are fully capable of setting them up, themselves, as they should. It's not rocket science and it doesn't need to involve an endless amount of tweaking. That's called taking shots in the dark. Ignorance isn't always bliss.


----------



## analogsurviver

opr8r said:


> That makes sense.  As I recall, I had to wait an extra few days for cartridge installation.  But why wouldn't a shop hire full time salaried employees that just do work?


 
  
 Cruel facts: 
  
 1. EACH cartridge, regardless of price, should be adjusted with the same precision.Taking about same time. Only top 1% of carts justify super duper
     extra attention - and that can not be acomplished in a single day.
 2. With every move you make during adjustment, you risk cartridge damage or even total destruction. Think how many installations you would have to do
     to cover for a single "oops" of a say $5000 cart with 2/3rd to 90% of that for repair/retipping.
 3. People capable of doing qualified installations/adjustments are VERY hard to come by. Usually, they are earning incomparably more at their usual         jobs  than they could installing cartridges.
 4. Try it once yourself; it is easy to bla bla about it, when it comes to aligning the lateral geometry EXACTLY , not "we will leave that to the trainee as an     exercise/homework" - then you will begin to grasp what it really means. Practice on some low priced cart.
  
 Than think of the guys who plunk a couple of grands on cart - and find low X00 $ ( X between 1 and 2 ) for installation WAAAAY too expensive. Two bolts and four clips can not possibly be that hard...
  
 It is not. Takes 2-3 minutes ( given the appropriate hardware ). But getting the cart under just the right set of adjustments to suit that particular sample best takes another X00 minutes - X being high single or low double figure.
  
 I certainly do not want to intimidate anybody, particularly not novices. Analog is tricky - it does not always respond the same as digital/computers - 
 you can google as much as you please regarding cartridgge adjustment - somebody will eventually have to do the nitty gritty. I am merely saying that
 cartridge alignment done right is way too costly with lower priced tables/carts for the dealer to be acceptable. Dealers of high end carts do have margins that should cover quality installation. 
  
 And yes, properly adjusted Rega/Project/etc with Ortofon 2MRed/AT110/Shure97e/some Grado/etc will smoke >10 K table "with two bolts and four clips".


----------



## Silent One

So, there's hope...


----------



## longbowbbs

I just got this mental image of a Chevy Vega with a small block 350 in it.....


----------



## Silent One

I read a lot about those installs (327 & 350 Short-blocks) and the telephone poles that followed! But I understand what prompted the image.


----------



## ]eep

I don't mean to be negative on everything said above, but cartridgealignment is not _that_ hard... You can't really go wrong with 2 screws and four clips. Just like a broken clock tells the correct time twice a day, the horizontal alignment on a normal radial arm is never really right but for two places. If you are not a complete klutz. There is no absolute right or wrong in horizontal angle because it changes all the time. :rolleyes: I dare say that if you play mostly singles a different alignment optimized closer to the spindle is preferable to the standard alignment. And if you play mostly older shorter records where the groove is cut more towards the rim you need the opposite. 
The best you can achieve with 'the 2 screws and 4 clips' is a *compromise*. The tolerance of your compromise depends on the stylusshape. It always is about which compromise to take and how to most closely approach it. It is *relative*. So don't be afraid to make your own compromise. Just like you chose your stylusshape according to your own ability to make correct alignment decisions and the skill to carry them out. Or have it done for you.

Then there is azimuth, this is an absolute. But many arms have no adjustment for it just _because_ it is an absolute. Straight is straight. So if your cartridge is out of whack youre straight out of luck. 

Now where does the TLC come in? Well, if you can adjust azimuth you will need a small mirror to set the arm straight. And if you cantilever/tip is not properly aligned to the body you will need to listen. And relisten, and adjust, and listen again. But the reward is: when it's right, it's right. _Unless_ you are using a unipivot arm. 

And then there is the VTA. :rolleyes: Again: no absolutes. It can be, with a perfectly plane lp, but they hardly ever are. And if you change a thick 200gr for a thin 120gr, again: you will need to adjust. And with a Rega arm, you can't. Or you need a washer under the 120gr lp. And for many other arms you will have to fiddle with a tiny screwdriver to adjust the height of the arm, never knowing where you had it correct. There are very few arms with on the fly VTA adjustments. 

 Many if's, but's and unlesses. There's analog for you. Never a boolean when you want it.


----------



## MorbidToaster

_
I want your heart...your soul...and your mind..._


----------



## bbophead

Pretty wild!  And, that headshell!  Looking forward to meet pics, too.


----------



## Arsis

Realistic LAB-2200 $20 from ebay  Installed a new Audio-Technica AT311EP cartridge. Using it with a Cambridge Audio 540P preamp and a Pioneer VSX-822k receiver. Sounds pretty darn good!


----------



## palmfish

Correct me if Im wrong, but aren't records cut and masters EQ'ed to compensate for the alignment changes that occur as a tonarm/stylus tracks across a record?
  
 And if that's true, isn't linear tracking solving a problem that doesn't exist? Actually performing worse than a conventional tonearm?
  
 I never did understand this one...


----------



## OPR8R

morbidtoaster said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Looks delish.  What is it, so I can want one?


----------



## MorbidToaster

opr8r said:


> Looks delish.  What is it, so I can want one?




That's Strapping Young Lad's Alien from the recent Splatter box set. Arm is a Kuzma Stogi with a Dynavector 10x5.


----------



## bbophead

palmfish said:


> Correct me if Im wrong, but aren't records cut and masters EQ'ed to compensate for the alignment changes that occur as a tonarm/stylus tracks across a record?
> 
> And if that's true, isn't linear tracking solving a problem that doesn't exist? Actually performing worse than a conventional tonearm?
> 
> I never did understand this one...


 
  
 You might find this thread enlightening or just maddening.  Good luck.
  
 http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/106/1061201.html


----------



## bbophead

arsis said:


> Realistic LAB-2200 $20 from ebay
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'll bet it does!  Congrats on high-end on the cheap.


----------



## Arsis

palmfish said:


> Correct me if Im wrong, but aren't records cut and masters EQ'ed to compensate for the alignment changes that occur as a tonarm/stylus tracks across a record?
> 
> And if that's true, isn't linear tracking solving a problem that doesn't exist? Actually performing worse than a conventional tonearm?
> 
> I never did understand this one...





I've always been under the impression, perhaps from ancient folklore or advertising propaganda, that the cutting lathes themselves were linear tracking. I don't really see how EQ can compensate as I would guess the problem would be more of a continuous phase shift. With a pivot arm, from the beginning to the end, the needle effectively twists and changes angle in the groove. but that's just a guess. 
 RIAA equalization was implemented to extend the record time and solve other problems inherent to the process. I'll have to dig deeper into the physics of the "linear advantage". Fact or myth?


----------



## palmfish

bbophead said:


> You might find this thread enlightening or just maddening.  Good luck.
> 
> http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/106/1061201.html




Good reading bbop, thanks for the link.

Doesn't answer my question about cutting and mastering though. If a master is cut with a tangental tonearm, then isnt a linear tracking arm going to have azimuth errors? Or are (were?) masters cut with LT cutters?

Also, I know that ideally, digital discs and vinyl LP's need different masters. With digital masters, do studios use EQ to compensate for tracking errors during vinyl reproduction? Is this what RIAA equalization does?


----------



## Eee Pee

Check out Youtube videos and watch them cut vinyl.  It wouldn't make any sense mechanically speaking, to not cut them in a straight line.  Keep it simple.  That's the whole premise behind linear tracking tonearms.  That's why there's two best spots for a regular arm, and all other positions are a "compromise".  
  
  
  
  


> The benefit of tangential tonearms is that they exactly follow the tangential path of the cutter head used on record cutting lathes. This means that the path the stylus takes as it tracks across the record is exactly the same path that the cutter head took as it cut the record.


 
  
 http://www.clearaudiousa.com/_en/ta_TT3.php


----------



## palmfish

eee pee said:


> Check out Youtube videos and watch them cut vinyl.  It wouldn't make any sense mechanically speaking, to not cut them in a straight line.  Keep it simple.  That's the whole premise behind linear tracking tonearms.  That's why there's two best spots for a regular arm, and all other positions are a "compromise".
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks, that answers that question.


----------



## Eee Pee

Surprised you didn't know that actually.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Brings up a funny thought.  Imagine 1000 grooves on a record side, and with a regular tonearm, you can only set up the cartridge to play perfectly in two of them.


----------



## palmfish

I only "think" I know everything


----------



## OPR8R

morbidtoaster said:


> Arm is a Kuzma Stogi with a Dynavector 10x5.


 
  
 Very sexy.


----------



## analogsurviver

palmfish said:


> Correct me if Im wrong, but aren't records cut and masters EQ'ed to compensate for the alignment changes that occur as a tonarm/stylus tracks across a record?
> 
> And if that's true, isn't linear tracking solving a problem that doesn't exist? Actually performing worse than a conventional tonearm?
> 
> I never did understand this one...


 
  
*NO.*
  
 There never was, or will be, such thing as cutting the record in a way that would try to compensate for the lateral geometry errors of pivoted arms.
 You need as mechanically firm and fuss-free platform for the cuttrng head as humanly possible - anything more complicated than straight tracking would compromise that far more than any gains possible. Remember, cutting heads can take power input of the order approx 500 W per channel - one kilowatt of power is sure to excite any mechanical resonances of the supporting platform. 
  
 There was such a thing as trying to compensate for the STYLUS errors, by recording master lacquer with exactly the opposite error added to the recorded signal, in hope both would cancel each one out, producing error free transfer from tape to disc. It was called Dynagroove http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynagroove. Obviously, that error added to the clean signal has to be calculated for the precise geometry of the stylus. 
 After the industry moved from conical to elliptical and later to shapes even more approaching the cutting stylus shape, Dynagroove became obsolete.
 I have a few Dynagroove records and I might one day record some of it both with a conical stylus, where it kind of works, and a modern say Micro Line - where it sounds disatrous.


----------



## analogsurviver

morbidtoaster said:


> _I want your heart...your soul...and your mind..._


 
  
 Correction. Arm is not Kuzma Stogi, but Kuzma *STOGI S* . It is one of the few unipivot arms that have precise and repeatable azimuth adjustment. 
  

 This is the late version of the original Stogi. Original did not allow for azimuth adjustment, all current production arms do. As far removed from unipivot as it gets. http://www.kuzma.si/stogi.html


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I don't mean to be negative on everything said above, but cartridgealignment is not _that_ hard... You can't really go wrong with 2 screws and four clips. Just like a broken clock tells the correct time twice a day, the horizontal alignment on a normal radial arm is never really right but for two places. If you are not a complete klutz. There is no absolute right or wrong in horizontal angle because it changes all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I agree with most of the above.
  
 BUT - straight linear tracking, sharpest stylus that does not threat re-cutting the groove, correctly aligned for azimuth using measuring equipment, on a platter that holds the lumpy wavy LP dead flat against its surface with vacuum, with VTA on the fly with digital micrometer allowing for precise repeatable adjustments, on a turntable that is smart enough to compensate for the off-center pressed records - is better.
  
 Good enough is the worst enemy of the best. All of the above is unfortunately costly - but trickle down process usually employed by the manufacturers gives hope that in noooot tooooooooo dissssssstaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.........nt future ....


----------



## MorbidToaster

analogsurviver said:


> Correction. Arm is not Kuzma Stogi, but Kuzma *STOGI S* . It is one of the few unipivot arms that have precise and repeatable azimuth adjustment.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the late version of the original Stogi. Original did not allow for azimuth adjustment, all current production arms do. As far removed from unipivot as it gets. http://www.kuzma.si/stogi.html




If you're gonna be that way it's actually a Stogi S CE. :/


----------



## bbophead

eee pee said:


> Surprised you didn't know that actually.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sorry, but I refuse to let that drive me crazy, or, buy an SLT arm.


----------



## Shaffer

]eep said:


> I don't mean to be negative on everything said above, but cartridgealignment is not _that_ hard... You can't really go wrong with 2 screws and four clips. Just like a broken clock tells the correct time twice a day, the horizontal alignment on a normal radial arm is never really right but for two places. If you are not a complete klutz. There is no absolute right or wrong in horizontal angle because it changes all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm not going to address the entire text. Frankly, just don't have the time or the real interest, but I will say that an absolute measure - or close to it - does exist. It's called 92* SRA. A one degree change in SRA on, say, a Rega arm equates to a 4mm change in VTA. The fiddling with VTA is essentially pointless, once the correct SRA value is in play. I can go on.... lol


----------



## ]eep

analogsurviver said:


> I agree with most of the above.
> 
> BUT - straight linear tracking, sharpest stylus that does not threat re-cutting the groove, correctly aligned for azimuth using measuring equipment, on a platter that holds the lumpy wavy LP dead flat against its surface with vacuum, with VTA on the fly with digital micrometer allowing for precise repeatable adjustments, on a turntable that is smart enough to compensate for the off-center pressed records - is better.
> 
> Good enough is the worst enemy of the best. All of the above is unfortunately costly - but trickle down process usually employed by the manufacturers gives hope that in noooot tooooooooo dissssssstaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.........nt future ....



And I agree with you completely. But then you are getting close to shooting gnats with naval guns.  You can get very good with just a bit of attention. And every bit more takes a lot more effort. I know I don't want to spend more than 5 seconds putting on a record (dropping it on, clamp on, turn, sweep dust and cue). I even get irritated when the inner sleeve won't do what I want it to do.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> And I agree with you completely. But then you are getting close to shooting gnats with naval guns.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I actually will scan the editorial from the Speaker Builder magazine from early 80s - which essentially tarred & feathered Nakamichi record centering turntable, labeling it as band-aid. I agree - in theory, records SHOULD come pressed on center. 
  
 In real life - no way. The same for record flatness, VTA, azimuth - these things were not even standardized, not once for all - or not at all. 
  
 I am afraid 5 seconds is not enough to change the record and have decent sound from it. I do not like/enjoy  that more than 5 seconds time required either...


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> ]eep said:
> 
> 
> > And I agree with you completely. But then you are getting close to shooting gnats with naval guns.
> ...


 
  
 I always thought the Nak TT was a great idea.  I saw it in operation back in the day at the hi-fi emporium where I was employed.  Out of the things you enumerated, flatness, VTA, azimuth, I thought centering was the most important.  I've heard plenty of solo piano records runined by this defect and the Nak fixed that and no amount of fiddling with the other stuff could eliminate that problem.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> I always thought the Nak TT was a great idea.  I saw it in operation back in the day at the hi-fi emporium where I was employed.  Out of the things you enumerated, flatness, VTA, azimuth, I thought centering was the most important.  I've heard plenty of solo piano records runined by this defect and the Nak fixed that and no amount of fiddling with the other stuff could eliminate that problem.


 
 +1.
  
 After you get flatness, VTA, azimuth, VTF, antiskating, etc, right - that off cener pressed record ( do on center records actually exist ? ) is like sore thumb.
 On piano it is most noticeable, but it affects all music. 
  
 It is the reason a decent cassete setup will have upper hand over ANY TT if off-centering is not adressed in one way or another. Naka's solution is the only practical way for "business as usual" (albeit at yet additional time it is required to find the true center of any given record ) playing of vinyl.


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > I always thought the Nak TT was a great idea.  I saw it in operation back in the day at the hi-fi emporium where I was employed.  Out of the things you enumerated, flatness, VTA, azimuth, I thought centering was the most important.  I've heard plenty of solo piano records runined by this defect and the Nak fixed that and no amount of fiddling with the other stuff could eliminate that problem.
> ...


 
  
 "if off-centering is not addressed in one way or another"
  
 Are you implying there is another way to address this problem other than with a Nakamichi centering TT?


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> "if off-centering is not addressed in one way or another"
> 
> Are you implying there is another way to address this problem other than with a Nakamichi centering TT?


 
  
 There USED TO BE another. Less precise, had to be done manually, but worked on any turntable. It did disappear from the market before I even became aware of it trough a review in IIRC The Absolute Sound. I forgot the name of the company from the USA, but the ingenious set consisted of self adhesive rings,  appropriate record clamp and some optical device to observe the centering of the run-out groove. 
  
 Procedure was as follows: for each side of the record a true center was found manually by observing the run-out groove using the above mentioned optical device. In order to be able to do that, record hole had to be enlarged enough to allow for centering using a file or similar.Without disturbing the position of the centered record on the platter, a self adhesive ring was put in the appropriate record clamp that had in its surface facing the record label a groove that accepted said self adhesive ring. After applying the ring/clamp,. ring did glue itself to the record label. On subsequent playings, ring/clamp interface automatically took care of centering. Obviously, procedure had to be repeated for each side of the record.
  
 Drawbacks are numerous: first, precision is hampered by human error in the first place, tolerances necessary to allow relative easy removal/centering of rings and clamp add further to error. I do not know of any record collector that would be thrilled by necessity to permanently glue anything to record label surface of his or hers records. It makes record thicker, necessitating appreciably more shelf place per given number of LPs compared to normal space required. That kind of LP storing might/may lead to increased warpage of the entire record collection. Even if rings are made from transparent material, they do make reading the label more difficult. And most probably a special mat with recess at the ring area would have to be used.
  
 So - Naka is not only better, but does not necessitate any change/modification to the record.
  
 There is a fly in this ointment - Naka TTs are not offered in actions at the end shelves of Hofer and Lidl in Europe, or their US counterparts ...
  
 The above short lived solution was directly influenced by discontinuation of Naka TTs.
  
 Found what the device was called :
  
 Center A Disc, from HVH Designs, 7647 Densmore Avenue, Van Nuys, California 91406 (defunct since 1987 )
  
http://www.regonaudio.com/NakamichiTX1000.html


----------



## bbophead

"Naka TTs are not offered in actions at the end shelves of Hofer and Lidl in Europe, or their US counterparts"
  
 I don't know what this means, Hofer and Lidl?  Actions at the end shelves?


----------



## parbaked

...like a dismantled vinyl factory!


----------



## bbophead

Oh, sorry.
  

  
 Just something I grabbed.  Pretty, ehh?


----------



## Silent One

_What a pretty photograph..._


----------



## Errymoose

Agreed... it is gorgeous.


----------



## analogsurviver

parbaked said:


> ...like a dismantled vinyl factory!


 
  
 Still picture of the off-center pressed record spinning on a TT  
  
*is  WORTHLESS*
  
Video is required - or audio recording ( "needledrop" ) of the offender doing its dirty deed. If and when I manage to somehow procure either a functional Naka TT or one that can be repaired/refurbished, I will at least be doing LOTS of needledrops. I promise a pic or two, too.
  
Until then, YT video of the big Naka with the arm of my choice, the Eminent Technology ET2 ( sadly, without vacuum platter ) : 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5O7ssQB4Y8
  
 Close-up vid of the nitty-gritty : 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx3Glj2mKCs
  
 The WORST record I have regarding off-center pressing?. Clearaudio TEST record....


----------



## analogsurviver

errymoose said:


> Agreed... it is gorgeous.


 
  
 I call it vinyl porn...


----------



## jscivias

mouth is watering..


----------



## ]eep

> There is a fly in this ointment - Naka TTs are not offered in actions at the end shelves of Hofer and Lidl in Europe, or their US counterparts ...





> I don't know what this means, Hofer and Lidl? Actions at the end shelves?



LOL. Something ppl of outside the German retailing sphere don't understand. Lidl is a German low-budget supermarket with excellent products from non-A-label brands. No Procter and Gamble or Unilever there. And besides the normal stock they sell all sorts of stuff under their own brands on an incidental basis. Cheap and cheerfull, never rubbish. In the EU we have 2y guarantee by law.

I always buy my groceries at Lidl, and I always check the specials, but I've never seen a TT... 

About excentre LP's: a sharp knife does the trick. Just cut out the hole a little bit to the proper side. Place your record, push it towards the side you cut out and place the clamp. It's not gonna go anywhere. The spindle on my TT is so thick that LP's fit very, very tight, So much that I have trouble taking new albums off the platter. Just a bit extra play on one side isn't going to hurt. I've never seen a record that's more than 1 mm off-centre and they are rare (<0.1%? ) I have quite a collection and I haven't encountered 1 that bad.


I'm not saying Nakamichi didn't make great stuff. Real Japanese top engineering from the 80-ies. And I don't know if I should say this straigtforward or cynical. Or that I should mention: from the same ppl that brought you the Fukushima nucleair reactors... Hold your breath in november.

Looking for pictures I found an Ebay auction that went for $3000 for a defective unit. 
_"Here is the problem with this Dragon, it's out of control, spins super super fast. The rest of the functions seem to be working. The small arm works, all display lights work etc... This unit looks to complicated to fix and therefore should be taken care by a certified technician who understand the mechanism of this Dragon turntable. 

SOLD AS IS!!!"_
That is why I find KISS the most sensible approach in engineering and I try to adhere to the minimal approach. Not everything needs to be perfect to be enjoyable if near perfection can last a lifetime.


----------



## palmfish

I don't worry about it. It's an imperfect world and analog is imperfect. That's what I love about it.


----------



## jscivias

Lidl.. excellent products.. no rubbish.. um I am not sure about that, one time I found moldy products there. but anyway.. that is OT sorry.


----------



## bbophead

Thanks for the clarification and the sharp knife suggestion.  Reads like it would work just fine.
  
 Remember, the enemy of near perfection is perfection.


----------



## Arsis




----------



## analogsurviver

*                               *
_                                        *Autumn Leaves*  _
  
  
  
  
  

 Look what the cat just dragged in ...
  
  

_            _
  

 Remember my post(s) regarding the safest method(s) to ship vinyl ?
  
  
  

 The *CUBE* . Weight 30.0 kg. Containing approximately precisely 77 LPs.


----------



## Silent One

What a weekend!


----------



## analogsurviver

silent one said:


> What a weekend!


 
  
 Listening to this one "From The Cube" at the moment:
  

  
  
 Conducted by my favourite conductor, Herbert Kegel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Kegel I will post more about this dark horse among men with baton.
  
 Otherwise, very little of 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 this weekend. Tomorrow I will be recording a female choir in a totally unknown church; we will be positioning mikes more than anything else, to squeeze max out of the acoustics available there. So that we can concentrate on real recording in next few sessions.


----------



## Nick 214

analogsurviver said:


> Listening to this one "From The Cube" at the moment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sweet Lord I love DMM classical! 
  
 Oh, and I quite like the surplus-earpad packing peanuts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 NK


----------



## analogsurviver

nick 214 said:


> Sweet Lord I love DMM classical!
> 
> Oh, and I quite like the surplus-earpad packing peanuts
> 
> ...


 
  
 LOTS of either in this three-stack cube.


----------



## Nick 214

analogsurviver said:


> LOTS of either in this three-stack cube.


 
  
 And here I was all happy that my seven Bob Dylan Monos (180g) arrived in one box yesterday...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 NK


----------



## analogsurviver

nick 214 said:


> And here I was all happy that my seven Bob Dylan Monos (180g) arrived in one box yesterday...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It is the quality of vinyl and music on it that counts, not sheer numbers. I'd rather have one good disc than X mediocre ones. I am happy and grateful for each and every good one 
  
 So,


----------



## Skylab

arsis said:


>




Very nice deck! Let's see a few more shots


----------



## analogsurviver

skylab said:


> Very nice deck! Let's see a few more shots


 
 Agreed. BUT - from his previous post(s) it is clear this deck "has not been handled with particular care" - to stay on the polite side. I can understand the pic showing corner with badge plate only...


----------



## Silent One

analogsurviver said:


> Listening to this one "From The Cube" at the moment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Horizons-
  
 Please do. Autumn 2013 for me will see me trying new teas and new music... and new French bubbly.


----------



## analogsurviver

silent one said:


> Horizons-
> 
> Please do. Autumn 2013 for me will see me trying new teas and new music... and new French bubbly.


 
  
 Our *Radio Student *has show called Expanding Horizons from the times immemorable - or at least back to my student days.
  
 So, pretend you are tuned to FM 89.3, and although classics is their least represented genre, every now and then "blind chicken finds the grain". 
 The set to introduce you to Kegel is this one : http://www.allmusic.com/album/release/legendary-recordings-of-herbert-kegel-box-set-mr0002695881
 It is the slightly broader tip of the iceberg. Sonic quality is not consistent from CD to CD, as they encompass quite large span in time. But if you land anything from Carl Orff conducted by him on vinyl, be it Philips, EMI or other western labels, or the preferred Eastern German ETERNA label, you've scored bull's eye. Particularly Der Mond http://www.amazon.com/Orff-Der-Mond/dp/B00515WUV6
 and Die Kluge http://www.allmusic.com/album/orff-die-kluge-der-mond-mw0001535106. These recordings sound terrific even on CD - transfer they did to digital FAR surpasses more usual suspects. But be prepared to pay onehellofalotofmoney for those Eterna LPs in good condition... 
  
 If you are into Mahler, here the 1st from the above 15CD set in 192/24 as download: 

http://www.e-onkyo.com/music/album/kicc9464/
  
 More on Kegel : http://www.lesliegerber.net/writing/progam-notes/herbert-kegel/
  
 Over & out - have to pack gear for tomorrow. I'll be back on sunday.


----------



## Silent One

Cheers


----------



## ]eep

> Remember my post(s) regarding the safest method(s) to ship vinyl ?



Large quantities buddy, Large quantities. 


Hmm, nice. I bought the version by Klemperer with Elisabeth Swarzkopf and Dietrich Fisher Dieskau just a month ago for €2. Must have... And last week the Carpenters 'now and then' for €1. Wasn't sure about that last one but glad I did. It's of a kind of 'all American' goodie two shoes, break the glazing off your teeth overly sweet. But, hey, I liked as a kid. So... Now I'm glad I did. It's an exellent record and here I can stomach Karen Carpenters voice very well. Quality doesn't fade that easily. I like the cover to: 3 page foldout red ferrari.


Oh, and I was just watching the movie 'the mechanic' on tv with Jason Statham. He is the new definition of cool?  "Don't touch that" when his protegé was flipping the arm. 

Another cool touch: how to blow up your house at the end with a TT as timer.


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> > Remember my post(s) regarding the safest method(s) to ship vinyl ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm famous, that looks just like my Jolida JD302BR.


----------



## Silent One

Now I gotta watch the movie! He's my guy but for whatever reason, I don't remember seeing that one.


----------



## Oregonian

silent one said:


> Now I gotta watch the movie! He's my guy but for whatever reason, I don't remember seeing that one.




Very good flick. The original with Charles Bronson and Jan Michael Vincent was excellent as well. Made in the '70's. Both worth watching.


----------



## analogsurviver

#2 from The Cube :
  

  
 Sorry for the quality of photos - when I pay 0.000000001 % attentionDedication of what I do for phono, they might look semi-decent... This one has intentionally murky colours and is nice in real life, but prooved to much for my nondescript camera (or should I have said my photographic skills ).


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> #2 from The Cube :
> Sorry for the quality of photos - when I pay 0.000000001 % attentionDedication of what I do for phono, they might look semi-decent... This one has intentionally murky colours and is nice in real life, but prooved to much for my nondescript camera (or should I have said my photographic skills ).


 
 You must be one positive type guy to dig into two Brahms Requiems back to back.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> You must be one positive type guy to dig into two Brahms Requiems back to back.


 
  
 There are more back to back examples in that cube. Dvorak 9, most likely others too. In the original smaller "scouting" shipping from thge same seller were two Bruckner's 8th symphonies.
  
 I listen a lot to different performaces of the same work. From musical point of view as well as from the recording point - particularly when I know recording of that piece is lying ahead. Although I try to be original and do the recording my own way whenever possible, being familiar with past masters can certainly not hurt.


----------



## bbophead

I think that's just fine.
  
 Listening to two Brahms Requiems in a row would not be my idea of a good time.
  
 Having sung the baritone solo with symphony orchestra (graduate school) and also in the chorus with Eschenbach and the Houston Symphony, I can say that I never reach for it when there is a Durufle or Faure within grabbing distance.  
  
 If I want to beat myself up about death, I'm not going Verdi or Brahms.
  
 Can't use them as recording or musical tests.  There's lots more to be friends with than those fear mongering downers.
  
 YMMV.


----------



## palmfish

Really, I like the Brahms well enough. Really one of the better requiems from the "B" group IMO. Berlioz is wonderful, of course, but Bruckner is like like nails on a chalkboard to me.
  
 Ive never listened to Faure's Requiem - I'll correct that this weekend.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> I think that's just fine.
> 
> Listening to two Brahms Requiems in a row would not be my idea of a good time.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I decided to get that "cube" because it is compsed of "complimentary" works poorly represented or totally lacking in my collection. Of all the LPs, there is only one doubling of what I already owned. And I too prefer Durufle or Faure. 
  
 To lighten up the mood a bit, hereby I assign #3 from the cube to :
  

  
 An anecdote regarding Horowitz; it happened I was playing "Horowitz in Moscow" LP for the adults while children were playing outside during one birthday party. All of a sudden in came a boy approx 10 year old at the time, whom I have heard playing piano (quite well indeed) before. He was amazed: "... that uncle shure knows how to play the piano!"


----------



## analogsurviver

palmfish said:


> Really, I like the Brahms well enough. Really one of the better requiems from the "B" group IMO. Berlioz is wonderful, of course, but Bruckner is like like nails on a chalkboard to me.
> 
> Ive never listened to Faure's Requiem - I'll correct that this weekend.


 
  
 Berlioz Requiem with Colin Davis on Philips was the snowball at the top of the hill that eventually lead to The Cube.


----------



## bbophead

Sang the Berlioz with Shaw and later, when he was too sick at the end but scheduled, some English guy who wasn't very good.  It's a great work and not the downer it can be.
  
 I wish I had more pics to post.  I miss pcis on this thread.


----------



## palmfish

analogsurviver said:


> Berlioz Requiem with Colin Davis on Philips was the snowball at the top of the hill that eventually lead to The Cube.


 
  
  


bbophead said:


> Sang the Berlioz with Shaw and later, when he was too sick at the end but scheduled, some English guy who wasn't very good.  It's a great work and not the downer it can be.
> 
> I wish I had more pics to post.  I miss pcis on this thread.


 
  
  
 I have only heard one recording of Berlioz Requiem - that is my Munch/Boston RCA Living Stereo SACD. I think you have both inspired me to try at least a couple more.
  
 bbop - your music background sounds fascinating. You've only mentioned the tip of an iceberg I suspect but it's quite an iceberg indeed!


----------



## palmfish

And because this is a picture thread, here's how it all started for me.
  
 This is the very first album I ever owned. Given to me by my father when I was 6 years old...


----------



## Shaffer

bbophead said:


> Oh, sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> Just something I grabbed.  Pretty, ehh?


 
  
 That's a past incarnation if mikel's system. He's a regular on my home forum, where, frankly, many if not most of the systems are like this.


----------



## Silent One

palmfish said:


> And because this is a picture thread, here's how it all started for me.
> 
> This is the very first album I ever owned. Given to me by my father when I was 6 years old...


 
  
 Beautiful beginnings, palmfish.


----------



## bbophead

@ Palmfish:
  
 A treasure for sure.


----------



## bbophead

shaffer said:


> That's a past incarnation if mikel's system. He's a regular on my home forum, where, frankly, many if not most of the systems are like this.


 
 No pics?
  
 This is supposed to be a pic thread.  I can only post so many shots of me humble RP6 before people start hating me.


----------



## Silent One

Nope. Just give us different compositions, bbophead. I'll light up the thread when I put the band back together by Halloween.


----------



## Shaffer

Lacquers being cut from 1/2" tape at Welcome to 1979. Thought you guys might find this interesting.


----------



## bbophead

shaffer said:


> Lacquers being cut from 1/2" tape at Welcome to 1979. Thought you guys might find this interesting.


 
  
 I would.  Is there a link?


----------



## Shaffer

You can't see the pic, I guess. Can anyone else, other than me?
  
 Edit: http://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1382333_10151727039128063_913850062_n.jpg as requested.


----------



## palmfish

Yup, I see it. Its lovely too!


----------



## analogsurviver

shaffer said:


> Lacquers being cut from 1/2" tape at Welcome to 1979. Thought you guys might find this interesting.


 
  
 Which lathe and which cutterhead (looks like one of the Neumann's) , powered by which electronics, is in the picture ? 
  
 The closest I got to a mastering facility so far was when in early/mid 80s then RTV Slovenija acquired brand new Neumann VMS80 system - but never actually installed it and after laying dormant for a year or two it was in wake of CD crushing anything in its path sadly decided to sell it off.


----------



## IndieGradoFan

Picked up my Rega RP40 today from SoundStageDirect. (Big thanks to Seth and Jay -- both were awesome). I upgraded from a Music Hall MMF 2.1 and the change is significant. Obligatory pictures:

  
 Sunny Day Real Estate - Pillars 7"

  
 M. Ward - Transfiguration of Vincent

  
 Arcade Fire - Funeral

  

  
 TT-PSU w/ Musical Fidelity V90-LPS and V-PSU II


----------



## Silent One

@ IndieGradoFan


----------



## analogsurviver

@IndieGradoFan
  
 Nice chameleon you've got there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## dosley01

Congrats on the new table!  Thank god I don't live close to SSD, I would be in the poor house.


----------



## bbophead

Real nice pics!  Congratulations.
  
 That clean, uncomplicated look is so appealing.


----------



## ]eep

I was in the 2ndH store today and I saw an album called 'The Lost World - Jurassic Park'. Huh? Strange layout for an album soundtrack that says: 'widescreen edition' on top.  
The title was sort of profetic then. When I took the disc out it turned out to be a couple of laserdiscs. An analog optical disc. And probably the best preserved original copy (better than the filmtapes). I once had a boxset of the Star Wars OT on VHS that looked really bad. Then I found an online copy off Laserdisc that looked way better. 

I didn't take although it was only €1 because I can't play it in any way. But the title was pretty appropriate.


----------



## bbophead

I would have found someone to bust it over to DVD.


----------



## calipilot227

I work in a record store, and we get people buying laserdiscs all the time thinking they're LP soundtracks ("Hey, I've never seen a record like this before..."). I've been intrigued by the format, never used it but some people swear by it. I might look around for a player, since we sell the discs for between 50 cents and $2.


----------



## palmfish

About a year ago I had the chance to buy a Pioneer Laserdisc player and a collection of 120 discs for a very small amount of money. I was mostly interested in it just for the original Star Wars Trilogy. Ultimately, I decided to pass. Unless there's a movie you absolutely must own and it's unavailable on DVD, Laserdiscs are a waste of money.


----------



## MorbidToaster

palmfish said:


> About a year ago I had the chance to buy a Pioneer Laserdisc player and a collection of 120 discs for a very small amount of money. I was mostly interested in it just for the original Star Wars Trilogy. Ultimately, I decided to pass. Unless there's a movie you absolutely must own and it's unavailable on DVD, Laserdiscs are a waste of money.




IIRC isn't laserdisc the best format for the original untouched Star Wars trilogy? Aren't the other formats the 'new' cuts?


----------



## longbowbbs

morbidtoaster said:


> palmfish said:
> 
> 
> > About a year ago I had the chance to buy a Pioneer Laserdisc player and a collection of 120 discs for a very small amount of money. I was mostly interested in it just for the original Star Wars Trilogy. Ultimately, I decided to pass. Unless there's a movie you absolutely must own and it's unavailable on DVD, Laserdiscs are a waste of money.
> ...


 
 I have those discs! and the player....Pioneer CLD-99...


----------



## palmfish

morbidtoaster said:


> IIRC isn't laserdisc the best format for the original untouched Star Wars trilogy? Aren't the other formats the 'new' cuts?




For a while they were.

In 2006 Lucasfilm released the "Widescreen Limited Edition" of the trilogy on DVD and in the bonus material (Disc 2) included the unrestored original theatrical version. 

Its debateable whether the DVD is "better" than the LD (Ive never seen the LD) but it is certainly at least equal to it. Personally, i find it hard to watch because the colors are so washed out and the sound is dreadful.


----------



## palmfish

longbowbbs said:


> I have those discs! and the player....Pioneer CLD-99...




Those discs are keepers. They will be very collectible someday, if they arent already.


----------



## longbowbbs

palmfish said:


> longbowbbs said:
> 
> 
> > I have those discs! and the player....Pioneer CLD-99...
> ...


 
 I am total Star Wars fan. They are staying in the collection.


----------



## Destroysall

My apologies for the terrible image quality. I had to make due with the old cell phone camera until my DSLR arrives.. My turntable is a Technics SL-210 F.G. Servo with an old Audio-Technica cartridge (whose name escapes me). It currently outputs to the Phono amp in the Marantz 2220B receiver.


The record is not warped, it is just the angle from which the photo was taken. 
  
 The record playing is the Mobile Fidelity pressing of Miles Davis' Round About Midnight. : - )


----------



## Punnisher

Love the vintage look and simplicity!


----------



## bbophead

Nice and great music!


----------



## ]eep

I 'm sorry for getting this thread so offtopic with the laserdiscs, but I'm also a total Star Wars fan from the start and I was thinking of those SWOT discs too. But I am not one of those who only worship the originals. I am actually with George Lucas on the improvements. They (the inserted computer animations) make it much more believable and real, like I imagened it before. 
I do agree that those LD will be collectible later on. But the blurryness IMHO is to blame on the Never The Same Color color coding system. I believe PAL is much better and sharper. And that's obsolete too (almost  ). But enough about LD already. 

Today I found out I'm totally and utterly spoiled. Ok, what else is new...  

I went to a show with a friend to a hifi dealer who had workshops on acoustics (very interesting), streaming (am there, doing that ) and high-end audio. I listened to a system with Mc Intosh amps and Focal Stella Utopia III EM speakers and I think my system sounds better. :eek: Ok, I don't get the same spl in a room that size with my 8W 300B tubeamp, but still. My system sounds faster, tighter and clearer. I'm so shmug and satisfied now. And no, I'm not delusional, just surprised. And happy. And strengthened in my conviction that the simpler the signalpath, the better, less is more, power corrupts and most important: smart thinking and a good vision om how to prioritize your compromises in physics is more important than betting on one horse and try to optimize it to infinity. I can make this a long story but I really love Focal speakers. And McIntosh had a really nice new turntable, the MT5. I don't know what cart they used. I like the looks a lot better than the MT10. 

Imagine it with this on top of the rack:

The system sounded really great and it was a good presentation. Good acoustics too. But however superior the Focal Be tweeter, it's basically a dome tweeter. And the mids are still 2 6.5" cones crossed at 2kHz. My Genesis VI mid is much lighter and faster, the circular ribbons too. And 3 light 8" with motion feedback are faster and tighter than 1 big 13". However strong the magnetic field with the electro magnets. I don't know much about the Mc Intosh amplification but, although excellent, there was simply to much of it (components I mean). And the monoblock power-amplifiers were transistor. Which I don't like. Although the better the amplification the more tube-, transistor- and chipamps converge, I still prefer tubes for their openness, clarity (sound) and (technical) simplicity. 

Almost forgot: I didn't like the other system really that much. A system of KEF Blade, Naim amplification and Well Tempered TT/ Dynavector (XV? can't fault that TT!!!). I just can't seem to like the Naim sound. And I don't like the KEF uni-Q system. Again: basically a dome-tweeter, a slight trumpet sound and betting on the same horse again. Refining, refining and refining to infinity with unobtainium won't get you anywhere if you keep sticking to the same old unguided guns. Sometimes starting from scratch is the best option. But scary and full of risk to your 60y old business with dito engineers.

So what am I saying with all this? Even with modest means (I am not rich at all) and a keen open mind you can put together a very good system with 2ndH and (modded) Chinese parts that can challenge the best systems.

My rant for today. Don't take it too seriously, be happy.


----------



## longbowbbs

]eep said:


> So what am I saying with all this? Even with modest means (I am not rich at all) and a keen open mind you can put together a very good system with 2ndH and (modded) Chinese parts that can challenge the best systems.
> 
> My rant for today. Don't take it too seriously, be happy.


 
  
 I so agree with you jeep! (Also about Star Wars!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) The expensive systems can be matched for much less money. I'll give up the Snob appeal and keep the cash in my wallet while I enjoy great sound.


----------



## morserotonin




----------



## bbophead

morserotonin said:


>


 
 Lookin' good!


----------



## Eee Pee

I was listening to my Traveler and HD 700s last night. Quite nice. Sonata to Soundsmith to Mjolnir. 

One of those  nights.


----------



## morserotonin

Isn't the Mjolnir balanced only?  What cable did you use for the HD700?


----------



## Eee Pee

Yep, balanced only. I read that HD 477 and HD 497 models use the same mono plugs as the 700. It's a pretty thin cable and it was around $20. I added a ~$5 Neutrik 4 pin XLR to that. Cheap enough to try. So single ended from Soundsmith to Mjolnir and balanced out to HD 700.


----------



## MattTCG

I humbly ask for advice if I may. Complete noob here. There are two turntables for sale locally. A Thorens td-280 and a Luxman td-284. Given that the condition is about the same which is the better choice.


----------



## snapontom

I would go with the Luxman.  Its better looking!  Thats the most important thing at that level.  If you want better sound... carts, phonostages, amps, hps, speakers, cables, record cleaner, etc etc etc oh and don't forget room treatments!


----------



## analogsurviver

matttcg said:


> I humbly ask for advice if I may. Complete noob here. There are two turntables for sale locally. A Thorens td-280 and a Luxman td-284. Given that the condition is about the same which is the better choice.


 
 Thorens TD-280 is a fair cut below their 12X, 14X and 16X tables. Luxman PD-284 is a direct drive table. I have no experience with Luxman tables, what I could "decipher" from the reviews decades past, was that their speed stability was not as good as advertised. Still quite good and if I had to choose, I would go with Luxman. If the Thorens model started with 1 - ....
  
 It is not so much which machine you use but how well it is adjusted. There is lots of good info and advice in the Turntable Setup thread - do yourself a favour and read it trough, might save lots of time and $$$.


----------



## MattTCG

Reading through it now. Thanks guys!!


----------



## morserotonin

matttcg said:


> I humbly ask for advice if I may. Complete noob here. There are two turntables for sale locally. A Thorens td-280 and a Luxman td-284. Given that the condition is about the same which is the better choice.


 
 I agree the Luxman, even though I am a huge Thorens fan when it comes to vintage tables. Enjoy whatever you decide!


----------



## Shaffer

I'd get the Thorens. Almost every DD Lux 'table I've looked at in the last few years had speed stability issues. Big ones.


----------



## parbaked

matttcg said:


> I humbly ask for advice if I may. Complete noob here. There are two turntables for sale locally. A Thorens td-280 and a Luxman td-284. Given that the condition is about the same which is the better choice.


 
 I checked out your local CL and was amazed that those are the ONLY two decent turntables for sale!
  
 I would pass on both those turntables and keep looking, even for the $150 asking price.
 It is not that they are not worth that money but I don't think those are the TTs you want.
 1. Both are semi-automatic. You probably want a manual deck.
 2. If you want a Luxman, 'cause they are pretty, get a belt drive!
 3. if you want a Thorens, save up your pennies, study up on the history of Thorens and then buy a Thorens with a model number that begins with a 1XX. You will need to spend $$$ or know how to work on it to get a "real' Thorens. 
  
 Maybe check eBay for TTs by sorting by "nearest distance". You may find more sellers on eBay than CL.
 You can often then contact seller and arrange to audition the TT and pick it up for a cash discount.
 Another option is to place a TT wanted add on your CL.
 It is not easy to find a decent TT for $150. That's a steal! It will take luck, patience and knowledge to get a good one.
 The more you know before you buy, the better off you will be...


----------



## analogsurviver

parbaked said:


> I checked out your local CL and was amazed that those are the ONLY two decent turntables for sale!
> 
> I would pass on both those turntables and keep looking, even for the $150 asking price.
> It is not that they are not worth that money but I don't think those are the TTs you want.
> ...


 
 This is good advice.
  
 It depends how loooooooooooooooooooooo...ng you are prepared to wait. A good strategy would also be sorting by "lowest price first" - for "whatever" turntable, regardless of make/model, either on CL or ebay. Although laws of supply and demand are pretty accurate, sometimes there are "hiccups" - meaning that at the time and place there are no or few takers for a superb over the top deck starting at low bid. Ferraris and Rolls Royces of turntables have been known to sell for silly low prices - all good things come to those who can wait. 
  
 Trouble is, you have to know which TTs are good and are worth waaaaaitiiiing for ...


----------



## parbaked

analogsurviver said:


> Trouble is, you have to know which TTs are good and are worth waaaaaitiiiing for ...


 
 And then what to "look for" in each of the TTs you've identified so you get a "good one"...


----------



## Hijodelbrx

Of all the audio components, turntables are the most worrisome to buy used. So many moving parts, so many things that can be wrong. Add to this the lack of knowledge about the history of the unit, was it treated with care, or was it abused by some wannabe DJ? On top of that your price range ($150) practically guarantees you'll be getting a unit needing some work. Unless you're very mechanically oriented this means you'll eventually have to spend $ to get the unit in proper working condition. Sorry for painting such a bleak picture BUT...there are alternatives. Check out audioadvisor.com, they sell affordable entry-level tt's that actually sound good and are brand new!


----------



## MattTCG

Thanks again everyone for the sage advice. I'll plan to be more patient and educate myself more before pulling the trigger. I'm learning plenty just reading through this thread.


----------



## Oregonian

matttcg said:


> Thanks again everyone for the sage advice. I'll plan to be more patient and educate myself more before pulling the trigger. I'm learning plenty just reading through this thread.


 

 Are there no vintage/used record/stereo shops in Atlanta area?  I have at least 4 to choose from in Portland.  Bought my Yamaha TT at one for $125 direct drive, new cartridge and it has been flawless for 6 months.


----------



## analogsurviver

parbaked said:


> And then what to "look for" in each of the TTs you've identified so you get a "good one"...


 
 True. In one of the other threads I have suggested a basic Rega or Project NEW TT over vintage - it is what it is, it can not best a really good vintage TT, but it is new and should be free from gremlins that dwell in vintage equipment. If one has tiiiiiime and LOTS of experience, it is possible to assemble a mind blowing sounding TT for peanuts. And equally fixing a vintage one can drive you nuts if you lack tiiiime and experience.
  
 So prospective buyer should think hard if he/she wants plug and play solution or he/she is willing to fiddle with ills and quirks of analog. It always ends in the second camp, but first steps and appreciation of the analog records and sound they offer is perhaps easier with plug & play solution. Getting the vintage deck up to snuff might turn out to be too overwhelming for the novice.


----------



## parbaked

analogsurviver said:


> True. In one of the other threads I have suggested a basic Rega or Project NEW TT over vintage - it is what it is, it can not best a really good vintage TT, but it is new and should be free from gremlins that dwell in vintage equipment. If one has tiiiiiime and LOTS of experience, it is possible to assemble a mind blowing sounding TT for peanuts. And equally fixing a vintage one can drive you nuts if you lack tiiiime and experience.
> 
> So prospective buyer should think hard if he/she wants plug and play solution or he/she is willing to fiddle with ills and quirks of analog. It always ends in the second camp, but first steps and appreciation of the analog records and sound they offer is perhaps easier with plug & play solution. Getting the vintage deck up to snuff might turn out to be too overwhelming for the novice.


 
 Yeah that's why 9 years ago I bought a new Rega P2 and the best cartridge I could afford at the time (Benz Micro Silver) and it's been my daily deck ever since. I upgrade the feet and platter but otherwise just enjoyed it. It is not the best, but it is very forgiving and doesn't need to be constantly tweaked to sound decent.
 Works for me as most of my LPs are not flat anyway... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
 PS for Analog Survivor - I use different thickness felt mats to adjust the VTA (Roy suggested it!)


----------



## ]eep

Agree with above. Patience is important, but also knowing when to strike. Yesterday a saw a nice copy of the Benny Goodman at Carnegie Hall 1938 album with booklet and ringband ( what's that called; a spiral wire back for brochures booklets etc) at the 2nH store. They don't have much and most is rubbish. It kinda stood out. Unfortunately I couldn't take it because I was on an bike and didn't want to tote it around during lunch with a girlfriend. I came back today and it was gone. :mad:

I also have a better foto from the show I was at recently from a just released review. I'm even in the picture (way right). 


Focal Stella Utopia loudspeakers, McIntosh C500 tube preamp, D100 d/a-converter, MC601 600W monoblocks and the MT5 TT. 

I don't know all the prices but there are many countries in which you can buy a nice house for that money (I guess around €100,000). 
On the other set after the break was a Well Tempered Versalex TT /w Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua on a Naim set and KEF Blades. 

Sorry I don't have a better picture of the turntable. I walked out halfway. I wasn't charmed by the sound or the elitist presentation. Yes I am spoiled rotten (or I just know what I like). But I am not staying seated in reverence like it's a churchservice. Just walked out quietly and went to the toilet. :rolleyes:

Ah, I did find some pictures of probably exactly the same TT, for review on the same site (Dutch hifi site).
I think it's even rather charming for the collection of golfball, fishing string, plywood, anti-slip mat and lots of clever ideas that it is.






I must say the arm shares several design and engineering details with my Opera Audio T988 arm made in China. Not by coincidence, they work together. Opera audio manifactures the arm and distributes WT and DV in China.

Just one more picture. The food and drinks were very nice too. Top notch. Especially considering it was a free show.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Agree with above. Patience is important, but also knowing when to strike. Yesterday a saw a nice copy of the Benny Goodman at Carnegie Hall 1938 album with booklet and ringband ( what's that called; a spiral wire back for brochures booklets etc) at the 2nH store. They don't have much and most is rubbish. It kinda stood out. Unfortunately I couldn't take it because I was on an bike and didn't want to tote it around during lunch with a girlfriend. I came back today and it was gone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Nice report, Jeep ( I KNOW you are not a car, but I guess I will remain too lazy to find that character lurking somewhere in the silicon for the rest of my life... ).
  
 I had to totally eschew our own audio  event two weeks ago - I was recording an important concert in a hall I never worked before for which I knew to have absolutely amazing acoustics. Did not regret the decision one bit - and they didn't/don't have "the last picture" either !
  
 WT designer(s) still, even after 25 or so years, did not figure out how to make cartridge mounting and fingerlift right. Basic concept of the arm is good, it has progressed from the original design, but it is still far from what it could and should have been. Regardless, one of the better and more musical arms around. Zero free play 5 point "gravity slanted" main TT bearing, on the other hand, is both original and well executed.


----------



## analogsurviver

parbaked said:


> Yeah that's why 9 years ago I bought a new Rega P2 and the best cartridge I could afford at the time (Benz Micro Silver) and it's been my daily deck ever since. I upgrade the feet and platter but otherwise just enjoyed it. It is not the best, but it is very forgiving and doesn't need to be constantly tweaked to sound decent.
> Works for me as most of my LPs are not flat anyway...
> 
> 
> ...


 
 We have a saying :
  
_In dire straits, Devil eats flies._
  
 And analogSurviv*E*r has similarly to resort to different mat thicknesses / cartridge selected primarily for its HEIGHT / tonarm base shims / other imprecise & non-precisely-adjustable/repeatable means in order to get the VTA/SRA at least within the ballpark in TTs/arms that have no provision for arm height/VTA. Mat thickness/size/material is absolutely critical with most TTs ( that is why there is and will never be the best universally applicable mat ) and I try not to alter mat if there is any other way around it. 
  
 Still, in dire ....


----------



## ]eep

Ringmat has a system of different thickness mat to allow for VTA adjustments. 

 ]eep is from my 4 first names, and the mysterious creature from popeye (see my avatar) the jeep car was named after.



> how to make cartridge mounting and fingerlift right



I really agree with that. It looks rather rickety, not stable and with resonance from that long thin lift sticking out. Asking for resonance problems. And why is there a stub left? Why not insert a sort of T-shape in it. This just looks glued together like toothpicks. 




The end of the arm on my Clearaudio is a lot better. Not perfect but better. (this is just a sample picture, not my arm+cart)


----------



## MorbidToaster

Having owned an Amadeus I can safely say I'd leave the fingerlift off completely. 

It throws off the azimuth (causes it to drift) and is more difficult to use than just cueing from the middle of the arm.

It sounds odd, but it's really easy once you've done it a few times


----------



## calipilot227

I haven't heard it, but I'm a little skeptical of a tonearm that incorporates a golf ball into its design. Especially one costing as much as that one does. Please tell me I'm not the only one...


----------



## MorbidToaster

I understand it, but you shouldn't be. They didn't just use a golfball for fun. It was the ideal thing to use, so they did.

It's a fantastic tonearm. No other way to put it.

And in the grand scheme of things it's not that expensive. 

It's also ridiculously easy to set up.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Ringmat has a system of different thickness mat to allow for VTA adjustments.
> 
> ]eep is from my 4 first names, and the mysterious creature from popeye (see my avatar) the jeep car was named after.
> I really agree with that. It looks rather rickety, not stable and with resonance from that long thin lift sticking out. Asking for resonance problems. And why is there a stub left? Why not insert a sort of T-shape in it. This just looks glued together like toothpicks.
> ...


 
 +1. That the designer of WTA is clearly not aware of the importance of cartridge mounting was exemplified by having the cartridge attached to the arm by a SINGLE screw ( the left one in both of the pics above ) and fingerlift attached on with the right one in at least one incarnation of the WTA. Not only it is resonant to high heavens, it is very easy to whack it out of geometry - the resulting "lever" is certainly more powerful than what the torque of a single screw is capable of holding firmly in its place.


----------



## analogsurviver

morbidtoaster said:


> Having owned an Amadeus I can safely say I'd leave the fingerlift off completely.
> 
> It throws off the azimuth (causes it to drift) and is more difficult to use than just cueing from the middle of the arm.
> 
> It sounds odd, but it's really easy once you've done it a few times


 
 I second that. 
  
 Going fingerliftless is ALWAYS the best sounding option - fingerlift is located precisely where it can (and does) most harm to mechanical resonance(s),
 and in case of WTA it is also throwing off the azimuth.
  
 The original WTA did have yet another source of entirely not needed resonance - arm rest/clamp arrangement was so bad in resonance dept it is best to simply remove it - one single screw takes care of that in few seconds.


----------



## analogsurviver

morbidtoaster said:


> I understand it, but you shouldn't be. They didn't just use a golfball for fun. It was the ideal thing to use, so they did.
> 
> It's a fantastic tonearm. No other way to put it.
> 
> ...


 
 I second that.
  
 Original WTA used a disc "plunger" with two holes dangling on two wires and resting in silicone fluid. That was yet another source of mechanical resonance and unnecessary "friction" of the "bearing", as it takes quite a force to start the objects with regular surfaces to start to "flow" in liquid enviroment. The use of the golf ball is ideal both from mechanical resonace and bearing "friction" point of view - it is THE perfect solution to the problem.
  
 WTA is a fantastic sounding arm. Its forte is midrange - hardly anything short of a real good unipivot design can touch it. Certainly NO Rega - past, present or future. Bass can be a bit softer and slower than ideal, but I find that a minor price to pay for the midrange 2die4.
  
 It can be said it is ridiculously easy to set up. But it is the other way around keeping it set up. It is not "fire & forget" device - due to necesary different lenghts of the monofilament of the "bearing", it does tend to throw off the azimuth, requiring frequent re-adjustment(s).
  
 If it seems that I am overly critical of the flaws of WTA - not really. I simply wanted to point out
 the pro et contra - if you are capable and willing to maintain it, it will thank you with sound that is usually not attainable anywhere near the asking price. Despite not being inexpensive in absolute terms, in relative terms it can be said it is a bargain.


----------



## ]eep

And another thing that is a bonus for certain people: it is one of the few arms capable of keeping a Decca in line. I own one and a can tell you: it makes so much noise just from the cartridge alone (its a little tin box resonator/loudspeaker, just like two tincans and a wire you used to make for the treehut) you hardly need any electronics al all to hear music (or noise). :rolleyes:

I have it mounted in the Opera T988 but I can't get it right yet. I did something wrong with the cable or something (capacity?). 




The T988 is an oildamped unipivot with small bearingballs, the arm is basically the same as the WTA. And VTA is a bitch! I really have trouble with that.


Look what I just found. A new model Opera-Consonance: T8 Carbon Fibre tonearm. And look at the headshell. 




From the ad:


> Opera-Consonance T8 Carbon Fibre tonearm,assembled by Opera-Consonance in Beijing from parts machined by a watch maker situated in South China, made to exacting standards with the finest of tolerances.
> 
> The company is the largest supplier of analogue equipment in China and also is the distributor of Dynavector tonearms and cartridges throughout China,
> also made in house are the complete range of Well Tempered arms and 'tables



As you noticed I am keeping up with lots of hifi-stuff from China. TT's are rather rare but The Opera-Consonance and Hanns are quite good.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> And another thing that is a bonus for certain people: it is one of the few arms capable of keeping a Decca in line. I own one and a can tell you: it makes so much noise just from the cartridge alone (its a little tin box resonator/loudspeaker, just like two tincans and a wire you used to make for the treehut) you hardly need any electronics al all to hear music (or noise).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Decca cart is a typical case of - because it rhymes in German - _Gut gedacht, schlecht gemacht. _It is only from and including Jubilee model and up that 
 the mentioned "loudspeaker" is silenced anywhere well enough. That Decca "connector" between the 1/2" mount piece and cart itself gave me shudders - stylus guard clings harder than the connector, instead of merely removing the stylus guard I menaged to remove the cartridge ! It is flimsy and flexible precisely at the point that should guarantee the most stable position for the motor of the cartridge. The fact that Decca is by design a rather stiff low compliance design certainly does not help either.
  
 Yet Decca is love/hate affair of many vinyl lovers - but even the most Decca fervent diehards would have to admit it is necesary to keep at least one "normal" cantilevered cartridge for records on which their beloved creature simply goes berserk.
  
 The mechanical joke repeats itself with electrical one . Decca CAN be tamed, then it will ( within its ultimately limited envelope, large(r) amplitude excursions are outside its capabilities ) sing second to none - but that requires electrical compensation on a sample per sample basis, necessitating measurements in order to be able to implement the electrical load for exactly your cartridge. Time consuming and $$$ - couple that to not inconsiderable price of good Deccas in the first place and it will be clear why there are so few really good sounding Deccas around.
  
 You can forget anything in three figure range - simply not good enough, it will hint at the potential ultimately achievable by top models while crying all the time it just can not keep delivering that potential - nervous, to listening fatigue prone performance that I long term find unacceptable. But one day I hope to scrap together enough small change for a top Decca ...


----------



## palmfish

Posted by Headphonia on Facebook. Thought folks here would enjoy it...

www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/audiophiles-luring-youngsters-into-boring-conversations-2013110180809


----------



## longbowbbs

palmfish said:


> Posted by Headphonia on Facebook. Thought folks here would enjoy it...
> 
> www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/audiophiles-luring-youngsters-into-boring-conversations-2013110180809


 
 Funny article!


----------



## analogsurviver

palmfish said:


> Posted by Headphonia on Facebook. Thought folks here would enjoy it...
> 
> www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/audiophiles-luring-youngsters-into-boring-conversations-2013110180809


 
 There *might* be a grain of truth in there...


----------



## ]eep

Funny but creepy. :evil: And as always; the truth can be a lot worse...


----------



## longbowbbs

A dark alley, an old guy smelling of record cleaning solution wearing a trenchcoat. "Pssst, want something special?" He says. He opens the trenchoat to reveal many many phono cartridges....


----------



## analogsurviver

longbowbbs said:


> A dark alley, an old guy smelling of record cleaning solution wearing a trenchcoat. "Pssst, want something special?" He says. He opens the trenchoat to reveal many many phono cartridges....


 

















.


----------



## Clayton SF

Can anyone identify that amp?


----------



## Redcarmoose

palmfish said:


> Posted by Headphonia on Facebook. Thought folks here would enjoy it...
> 
> www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/audiophiles-luring-youngsters-into-boring-conversations-2013110180809


----------



## analogsurviver

redcarmoose said:


>


 
 I somehow can't imagine Lurch fiddlin' with phono cartridges though ...


----------



## Redcarmoose

analogsurviver said:


> I somehow can't imagine Lurch fiddlin' with phono cartridges though ...


 
 How bout *Thing T. Thing ?*


----------



## bbophead

He got moves.


----------



## TheWuss

I ordered one of these bad boys today.
 the analog rig will hopefully take a nice step forward soon....


----------



## awsanderson

thewuss said:


> I ordered one of these bad boys today.
> the analog rig will hopefully take a nice step forward soon....


 
 What exactly is it?


----------



## Shaffer

awsanderson said:


> What exactly is it?


 
  
 It's an Esoteric E-03 phono stage. A beautiful piece. Big congrats!


----------



## parbaked

Same TT but I did pulled the VTL Maxima pre and Stereo 50 amp out of storage to let them breath and give myself a treat.
 Really nice with the Spendors.
 Problem is I get no work done when these are in the office...


----------



## analogsurviver

redcarmoose said:


> How bout *Thing T. Thing ?*


 
 LOL - good one !


----------



## analogsurviver

parbaked said:


> Same TT but I did pulled the VTL Maxima pre and Stereo 50 amp out of storage to let them breath and give myself a treat.
> Really nice with the Spendors.
> Problem is I get no work done when these are in the office...


 
 Now, imagine being yourself in the shoes of poor Mr. Alphonse ( the undertaker from the BBC sitcom _Allo allo! _), having to defend yourself for not doing enough work due to _*ze distraktionz *_in your office :


----------



## MattTCG

I have been through this thread and done other reading on the acquisition and proper setup of a TT. Unfortunately, I don't find that I'm any more confident or less intimidated than I was before I started my research.


----------



## Skylab

Matt did you read the Turntable Setup thread? Lots of people there can help you with almost any TT setup question


----------



## MattTCG

Yes, I've read it. I just need to quit waffling and make a decision on a TT and take it from there. I struggle on whether to go with an older table with some vintage charm, Pioneer, or something newer and maybe more reliable like a Rega.


----------



## analogsurviver

matttcg said:


> I have been through this thread and done other reading on the acquisition and proper setup of a TT. Unfortunately, I don't find that I'm any more confident or less intimidated than I was before I started my research.


 
 Well, if you want to learn to swim, you (usually) have to get wet ...
  
 If you start with anything reasonable priced - and even if you break something along the way - not too much damage done. You can learn on inexpensive equipment the basics almost as well as on ultra high end gear - where thought of breaking the cart in the 5 figures really is not for the faint at heart.
  
 A practical advice from a British reviewer : " ..... I mounted XY cartridge perfectly in 2 hours when sober  - and in 15 minutes after a good shot of scotch ...."


----------



## Oregonian

matttcg said:


> I have been through this thread and done other reading on the acquisition and proper setup of a TT. Unfortunately, I don't find that I'm any more confident or less intimidated than I was before I started my research.


 
 Have you found a vintage record shop in the Atlanta area?   There HAS to be....................they will get you setup and going.


----------



## MattTCG

Yes, I've found one in Atlanta. Just haven't been able to drive down there. They have Pioneer, Thorens and Luxman tables. Alternately I can just buy a new table from Amazon.


----------



## Skylab

If they have a Pioneer PL-530, 550, or 570, and it's working well, that would be a nice match for your other gear, and those are nice TTs.


----------



## MattTCG

Thanks Rob. They do have a pl-530. I'll plan to go down tomorrow if possible and give it a good once over. 
  
  
 Edit..also a 570


----------



## Skylab

I like the 570 better, myself. But check those two out. Either one, if fully working, is a snap to set up with just a little bit of effort. But wouldn't the shop install a decent cartridge for you when you buy it? Or is it not an audio shop?


----------



## MattTCG

Not sure about the quality of services there but I'll give them shakedown tomorrow.


----------



## Silent One

analogsurviver said:


> Well, if you want to learn to swim, you (usually) have to get wet ...
> 
> If you start with anything reasonable priced - and even if you break something along the way - not too much damage done. You can learn on inexpensive equipment the basics almost as well as on ultra high end gear - where thought of breaking the cart in the 5 figures really is not for the faint at heart.
> 
> *A practical advice from a British reviewer : " ..... I mounted XY cartridge perfectly in 2 hours when sober  - and in 15 minutes after a good shot of scotch ...."*


 
  
 Great for the kitchen too!


----------



## mark_h

Speaking of PLC's


----------



## johnman1116

What happened to the "From the Cube" series??!?!


----------



## Skylab

Mark that's a beauty!!!!!!


----------



## analogsurviver

johnman1116 said:


> What happened to the "From the Cube" series??!?!


 
 I *guess* I decided to digest those LP *Private *style first. 
  
 Although I do enjoy chatting about several different recordings of the same work ( in those cube there were plenty examples of those...), I would like to point out that first they have to be:
  
 1. Scout listened using low cost but still good quality cart - for any "boobytraps" that might threaten damage to $$$ cart. I did find one ... so far.
 2. In case of double/multiple recordings of the same work, at least semi-decent opinion regarding  performances must be formed
 3. Music does take time to sink in - you can not force it. Ever got 77 (cube) plus 27 ( scout cube ) LPs within a month ?
 4. I have to work. This is the most intensive time for recordings yet. Listening to LPs is a luxury I can ill afford at the time - in the summer, where there is      (next to ) zero activity in recording, I can be prone to ooch and aach about performance quality, about recording quality, about mastering quality, about pressing quality, etc - but at the moment it is not possible with the attention this record collection from the *Cube *and its late owner deserve - he must have been dedicated music lover. I value and respect that and do not want to take it lightly.
  
 So - *to be continued*


----------



## mark_h

skylab said:


> Mark that's a beauty!!!!!!


 

 Thanks, not in my main rig but at my flat (vintage setup) needs a much better arm to do it justice! I've owned two but sold the first like a fool!


----------



## ]eep

I was curious about those Pioneer TT's. From a picture it looks nice and capable. But when I found this picture it reveals a stark truth. It says little about the functionality but much about marketing (and lack of engineering pride?). 


This triggers some personal emotion for me, it makes me sad. No pride of ownership, aging people in old houses falling apart full of old junk.

So, for contrast: Pioneer PLC-590 with a Stanton 681EEE on an Infinity Blackwidow tonearm


----------



## Skylab

]eep said:


> I was curious about those Pioneer TT's. From a picture it looks nice and capable. But when I found this picture it reveals a stark truth. It says little about the functionality but much about marketing (and lack of engineering pride?).
> 
> 
> This triggers some personal emotion for me, it makes me sad. No pride of ownership, aging people in old houses falling apart full of old junk.


 
  
 The original vinyl veneer looked very nice back in the day, but it often hasn't held up well.
  
 However, here is MY PL-570, same TT as above, but with a real walnut veneer:


----------



## calipilot227

]eep said:


> So, for contrast: Pioneer PLC-590 with a Stanton 681EEE on an Infinity Blackwidow tonearm


 
  
 First thought that entered my mind: Is the lowly Stanton 681 worthy of being mounted on such an arm? (I had the 680 EE on my PL-518, and I wasn't impressed with it).


----------



## parbaked

calipilot227 said:


> First thought that entered my mind: Is the lowly Stanton 681 worthy of being mounted on such an arm? (I had the 680 EE on my PL-518, and I wasn't impressed with it).


 
 IIRC very few cartridges work well on that super low mass arm, but don't recall if that Stanton was one of them...


----------



## calipilot227

Checked vinylengine, and yes the 681EEE is a high-compliance cart, best for tonearms in the 4 gram to 16 gram range according to the chart. My mistake.
  
 The Ortofon OM40 might be a good match as well.


----------



## bbophead

In the late '60s and early '70s, I graduated from the stock Shure M44-7 to the Stanton 681EEE on my original AR TT.  Then I discoverd the Shure V15 Type II.  That was better.


----------



## analogsurviver

calipilot227 said:


> Checked vinylengine, and yes the 681EEE is a high-compliance cart, best for tonearms in the 4 gram to 16 gram range according to the chart. My mistake.
> 
> The Ortofon OM40 might be a good match as well.


 
 681EEE is not that high compliance cart. It is very good indeed, but not quite to the level of which Black Widow is capable of.
  
 881S, 980/981S and particularly Epoch II series, specially LZ9S , would have been formidable Stantons with the BW.
  
 The Ortofon LM would actually be preffered to the OM (later version of LM) with BW and as always, the higher the stylus # with Ortofon, the better. 
 This rule might have one exception : Stylus 20 can sound really good under right conditions. Another Ortofon worth having on BW is M20E Super - perhaps the highest compliance stylus ( beware: FL fine line version if far stiffer/lower compliance ) , vintage or otherwise, you can still buy in a shop.
  
 There were a few others, but are today in too short supply to be chickensquaking about them on any forum.


----------



## Silent One

mmf-7 cart revisited.:
  
 If I wanted to replace the factory installed Goldring Eroica high-output mc, what MM's would serve me well for around $1k? Can't remember some of the previous suggestions you mentioned early in the year.


----------



## analogsurviver

silent one said:


> mmf-7 cart revisited.:
> 
> If I wanted to replace the factory installed Goldring Eroica high-output mc, what MM's would serve me well for around $1k? Can't remember some of the previous suggestions you mentioned early in the year.


 
 Ask yourself first what kind of sound you are after. What you are familiar with, what you heard at other places and liked, what made you to run away but didn't out of sheer politeness - etc.
 I know you like female vocals and that can be _bete noire _of MCs in the lower price range.
  
 MMs are load picky - and if you can not present them with the correct load, they can sound pretty strange. Please remind me of the phono input resistance(s) and capacitance(s) and/or any imput load switching capabilities at your disposal. Arm wiring capacitance spec would also be handy.
  
 Funny thing - recommendations can range from about 50$ all the way to 1111.11 - and although more money usually does bring  better performance, there are exceptions in given combinations.


----------



## dosley01

silent one said:


> mmf-7 cart revisited.:
> 
> If I wanted to replace the factory installed Goldring Eroica high-output mc, what MM's would serve me well for around $1k? Can't remember some of the previous suggestions you mentioned early in the year.


 
 I had a Grado Sonata 1 on my MMF-7 and still have it on my current table.  IMHO, you'll be in for a big treat when you get rid of the Eroica.  I actually preferred the less expensive 10xx Goldring line on the MMF-5 and MMF-7.  After hearing the cartridge evaluation Fremer did on AnalogPlanet, I would probably have to choose the 2M Black.  I wish he would do a +or- 1K cartridge shootout/comparison with the Clearaudio Virtuoso, Dynavector 20XH, Soundsmith Zephyr, Grado Referencce Master 1, Sumiko Blackbird, Benz Micro ACE S, Goldenote Boboli MKII and anything else I missed in that price range.  I realize there are a few HO Moving Coils in that list but personally I don't care as long as they work with my MM phono stage. 
  
 One other option, buy a B-stock Marantz TT15S1 for about 1K, it will come with a new Clearaudio Virtuoso V1, sell your MMF-7 for $500-600 and have a new TT and new cartridge for about 400-500.  That's what I ended up doing.  Since I had the Sonata, I sold the MMF-7 for $500 and Virtuoso for $520 so in the end I got and upgraded turtable and even put a few bucks back in my pocket.  When I'm ready for my VPI Classic 1, the TT15 should sell for $600-650 without cartridge, so it's win - win.


----------



## Silent One

analogsurviver said:


> Ask yourself first what kind of sound you are after. What you are familiar with, what you heard at other places and liked, what made you to run away but didn't out of sheer politeness - etc.
> I know you like female vocals and that can be _bete noire _of MCs in the lower price range.
> 
> MMs are load picky - and if you can not present them with the correct load, they can sound pretty strange. Please remind me of the phono input resistance(s) and capacitance(s) and/or any imput load switching capabilities at your disposal. Arm wiring capacitance spec would also be handy.
> ...


 
  
 You hit the parameters Olympic style! Lots of Jazz; Blues; Soul; Zydeco; Afropop; Latin Jazz; Chinese-pop; Indian-pop; Classical ect. When it comes to my system, I like a certain amount of decorum. But there are times I want my system to swing! Musically, dynamically and emotionally.
  
 This was my biggest challenge with the Senn HD800. Everybody and their niece was trying to sway me to buy a pair. Spent a night with them. And the Senn's wowed me on technical ability. Yet, my feet never moved, my head never bobbed the entire night - I was not moved emotionally despite technical merits. 
  
 Back to the dirt...er _cart. _I need sort of a Chameleon cart - refined when it's suppose to be, and wild 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




when I want it to be! 
  
 Cont'd...
  
 I have a Music Hall MMF-7. I'll have to look up resistance and capacitance. And the arm has upgraded Cardas wiring.
  
  
 Electrical Characteristics 
 Load resistance: 47Kohms 
 Load capacitance: 100-500pf 
 Internal inductance: 0.2mH 
 Intenal resistance: 77ohms


----------



## analogsurviver

silent one said:


> You hit the parameters Olympic style! Lots of Jazz; Blues; Soul; Zydeco; Afropop; Latin Jazz; Chinese-pop; Indian-pop; Classical ect. When it comes to my system, I like a certain amount of decorum. But there are times I want my system to swing! Musically, dynamically and emotionally.
> 
> This was my biggest challenge with the Senn HD800. Everybody and their niece was trying to sway me to buy a pair. Spent a night with them. And the Senn's wowed me on technical ability. Yet, my feet never moved, my head never bobbed the entire night - I was not moved emotionally despite technical merits.
> 
> ...


 
 I find the advice by dosley01 a post above right on the money.
  
 With your choices in music styles, the cart does need really good trackability - treble content in all the genres mentioned can be quite taxing. Thank goodness you did not mention the toughest of them all, the Chinese opera ...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Nothing against it, but it is the ultimate b***h to record and reproduce accurately.
  
 I would throw Audio Technica 440MLa and 150MLX in the mix.
  
 I can sympathize with you regarding Senns. HD 800 surprised me in a very positive way, but it still is rational first emotional second type of approach. I had nothing but shudder reminescensces of HD600/650 - most definitely not my coup of anything. Cold, sterile, bland, lifeless - dead. You can power them off nuclear power station and I would not change my opinion. Electrostatic/Electret Senns are another story altogether.
  
 Your desires/requirement for cart echoes that of most men for women 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - but there *is* a slight discrepancy between wishes and what is realistically achievable...
  
 Electrical characteristics you posted are for  _the ???cartridge _- and not toneram wiring. That would have some next to negligible resistance value you can completely ignore with MMs and capacitance value in the 100 pF order of magnitude. This capacitance IS important - the lower it is, the more versatility it will offer when paired with MM carts.


----------



## Silent One

> Originally Posted by *analogsurviver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Not to mislead you, I may have wrongly used "arm" when commenting on the electrical characteristics - it was from the manual for my Music Hall TT.


----------



## parbaked

silent one said:


> Not to mislead you, I may have wrongly used "arm" when commenting on the electrical characteristics - it was from the manual for my Music Hall TT.


 
 Curious to know what phono pre-amp you plan to use with your TT?
 Will you use the Shindos or is it the big Sansui for vinyl?


----------



## analogsurviver

silent one said:


> Not to mislead you, I may have wrongly used "arm" when commenting on the electrical characteristics - it was from the manual for my Music Hall TT.


 
 That does it: you will all have to endure my hand drawn graphs (and I am terrible with drawing etc ), as I have no time or intention to master some computer wizardry required to produce "present day normally" looking graphs generated by computer. 
  
 If even the manuals mix apples with asparaguses - no wonder poor audiophiles make even substantially greater mess out of it all ...


----------



## TheWuss

The Esoteric is here.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It is one of the most detailed audio components i have ever heard.


----------



## longbowbbs

thewuss said:


> The Esoteric is here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 What? No Parasound JC2?


----------



## TheWuss

That would certainly be a nice cosmetic match.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 and the Parasound stuff is straight-up amazing for the money.
  
 but, the Esoteric was a bit more full-featured, and i found one for a killer deal.
  
 i couldn't pass it up.
 Stereophile class A rated.  and 6 Moons' Blue moon award winner.  etc. etc.
  
 the ability to plug in two decks, and switch between.
 plus the front-panel on-the-fly switching of load impedance was a plus.
  
 my Chinook has the dip switches on the back,  and it was quite a pain to set up initially.


----------



## Silent One

thewuss said:


> The Esoteric is here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 




 Looking at your room... that's some good livin' right there!


----------



## Silent One

analogsurviver said:


> That does it: you will all have to endure my hand drawn graphs (and I am terrible with drawing etc ), as I have no time or intention to master some computer wizardry required to produce "present day normally" looking graphs generated by computer.
> 
> If even the manuals mix apples with asparaguses - no wonder poor audiophiles make even substantially greater mess out of it all ...


----------



## Silent One

parbaked said:


> Curious to know what phono pre-amp you plan to use with your TT?
> Will you use the Shindos or is it the big Sansui for vinyl?


 
  
 Will use both for vinyl, both for digital. The Shindo Pre has a Moving Magnet Phono Stage.


----------



## bbophead

New release, recorded in analog (1/4" tape!)


----------



## ]eep

I agree with Dosley01 too in regards to choices. I suppose the reason why you ask for MM is that this is limited by your phonostage. You don't really have a preference for MM other than that? If not, might I suggest thinking about an MC-transformer? IMO this gives a better sound and gives you a wider choicerange. If your budget is $1k you should be able to find a nice combination of 2ndH tranny plus very good MC. This would expand your range of options very, very much. 
Here's an example that isn't expensive (under $100). This one is actually new with NOS trannies. 

Or a used Denon AU-300LC LC-OFC Step-Up Transformer. I don't know where the price is going, but it's from the US. 
Or even a pair by Yamamoto soundcraft. More expensive but well worth it I think. 
There is a lot more on offer than there has been in years I must say. And reasonably priced too. Not just >$1-2k. 

Here's a verbose explanation that is probably better than I can explain. My experience: a step-up in front of a good (tube) MM sounds better than any MC-phonoamp I heard. And a low-output MC sounds better than most high-output MC/MM. I bought an Audio Innovations MC1000 about 20 y ago and I am still very happy with it. It was really expensive then but I then it doesn't deteriorate, it lasts a lifetime and many cartridges. 

There is the matter of impedance matching. I have on my tranny two options high/low. I can hear a difference but I never really had the idea that either one was really wrong. So I wouldn't worry to much about that. 
I initially bought it to be able to play an Audio Technica OC9 (upgrading from a very nice Milltek [Kiseki] Aurora High output MC). Still a cart that I heartedly recommend, or the similat AT33PTG. After that one broke down (after a really long time, all through the '90 well into '00) I temporarily went back to The Aurora which couldn't really make me happy anymore. I bought a DV Karat 17D3 MKII and again, bliss. I've used a Kiseki Blue on it and now I'm using it with a Koetsu Urushi. After I bought my current Jolida JD9 I thought I would try without it since it is really good on both MM as MC. But it makes such a difference! It is really so much better with step-up>MM than >MC that I took out the whole input-adaptorboard an fed it straight into the input of the JD9 (55dB amplified by the JD9 instead of 85 or 95dB). This is a lot quieter and sounds smoother, faster, more open and dynamic. Just alround spectacular. 

This will increase your scope to include FI
ZYX R100-02
Dynavector 20X2L Low Output or DV Karat 17D3
Yamamoto Soundcraft YC-03S Wooden body (ok, just out of reach) 
Audio-Technica AT-OC9/III, AT-33PTG/II, ...EV
Shelter 501-2
several (modified) Denon carts (DL103, A100, S1, Zu) Look at this: DL103 /w Graphite body, Boron cantilever and Shibata tip


Or whatever nice you might run into... 

PS I found a site that does retip service and can replace with sapphire cantilever + micro-ridge stylus. (cantilever+tip €260+€30 international s+h). It looks like this:





Combined with his wood body (€105) a modified Denon DL103 (which is pretty cheap) would look something like this:







Sorry for the large pictures, I don't know how to scale them whem linked


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I agree with Dosley01 too in regards to choices. I suppose the reason why you ask for MM is that this is limited by your phonostage. You don't really have a preference for MM other than that? If not, might I suggest thinking about an MC-transformer? IMO this gives a better sound and gives you a wider choicerange. If your budget is $1k you should be able to find a nice combination of 2ndH tranny plus very good MC. This would expand your range of options very, very much.
> Here's an example that isn't expensive (under $100). This one is actually new with NOS trannies.
> 
> Or a used Denon AU-300LC LC-OFC Step-Up Transformer. I don't know where the price is going, but it's from the US.
> ...


 
 Very good post. I like the graphite bodied DL103/boron/Shibata the best - although I first read abouit it here, this must be one of the best bangs for the buck in carts today.
  
 However, I DO NOT like transformers anywhere in the audio signal path. It is true that preamps capable of equaling and/or bettering them do not grow on trees, but they can be at least DIYed. Transformers are also extremely impedance sensitive, meaning you change the MC cart to one with sufficiently different impedance, that means change of transformer too. Not exactly my idea of flexibility.
  
 MM vs MC involves things that can sway the scales one way or another. MMs generally make mincemeat from MCsin tracking ability, particularly in the all important midrange and treble. Being generally higher compliance designs, they have always enjoyed and still do supremacy in bass tracking.
  
 There were/used to be VERY few MCs capable of tracking capabilities comparable to say Shure V15 series - which is NOT the pinnacle in tracking abilitiy. One was Ortofon MC 2000 - with 0.05mV output and too massive body weight for the high compliance necessary to be able to track in the same league, requiring absolutely the lowest mass arm, in practice that means SME III. Another was Denon DL1000A, discontinued as well. Today that might be Denon DL-S1, a downscaled 1000A - if you can still get it somewhere. There is always Van den Hul Colibri high compliance version - if 6k+Euro will not make too big a dent in your audio budget.
  
 The music genres mentioned by SO are tough on tracking - period. A carefully adjusted and loaded quality MM stands much better chance of playing those genres satisfactory at about the price mentioned.


----------



## Skylab

I have a Denon DL-S1 and it is a terrific cartridge - I'm surprised it doesn't get more love than it does. By current MC cartridge prices it's not expensive and it absolutely crushes many "popular" MCs that cost more.

Also, IMHO, the DL-S1 is significantly better sounding overall than the Ortofon 2m Black, which I own and very much like. They are actually similarly priced, although you need an LOMC phono stage for the DL-S1, of course.


----------



## analogsurviver

skylab said:


> I have a Denon DL-S1 and it is a terrific cartridge - I'm surprised it doesn't get more love than it does. By current MC cartridge prices it's not expensive and it absolutely crushes many "popular" MCs that cost more.
> 
> Also, IMHO, the DL-S1 is significantly better sounding overall than the Ortofon 2m Black, which I own and very much like. They are actually similarly priced, although you need an LOMC phono stage for the DL-S1, of course.


 
 I was hoping for you to chime in. I know it is a terrific cart, I own its poor relative, DL 304. It also punches far above its weight. It tracks flawlessly at 1.4 gram.
  
 DL-S1 is the same kind of b***h to amplify as the DL 304 - 40 ohms internal resistance, 0.15 mV output = trouble with anything but superb preamps.
 And it is a high compliance cart, even by MM standard, let alone MC. Low mass arm required to stay out of trouble, if you *insist* on 4 screw mounting, best to use are PLASTIC screws once upon a time available with the purchase of Shure, Stanton and Micro Acoustics cartridges. Otherwise you compound the mass/compliance issue in ANY arm.
  
 That is why it does not get more love - few are capable or willing to cater to its requirements. It is not an easy partner to tame/live with. But once satisfied, cart thanks back - many times over.


----------



## Skylab

Indeed, and that's why the DL-S1 pairs so nicely with the Denon DP-59L I use it on - the straight tone arm wand works well, when one uses the Q- damping feature of the 59L to tweak things and get them just right. 

And since this is a picture thread


----------



## analogsurviver

skylab said:


> Indeed, and that's why the DL-S1 pairs so nicely with the Denon DP-59L I use it on - the straight tone arm wand works well, when one uses the Q- damping feature of the 59L to tweak things and get them just right.
> 
> And since this is a picture thread


 
 I thought DL-S1 would reside on your Denon Q-damping deck ( about as ideal combination as possible ). But I envy that Renaissance LP ...


----------



## Skylab

analogsurviver said:


> I thought DL-S1 would reside on your Denon Q-damping deck ( about as ideal combination as possible ). But I envy that Renaissance LP ...




Thanks - it's a goodie


----------



## ]eep

analogsurviver said:


> Very good post. I like the graphite bodied DL103/boron/Shibata the best - although I first read abouit it here, this must be one of the best bangs for the buck in carts today.
> ...
> Another was Denon DL1000A, discontinued as well. Today that might be Denon DL-S1, a downscaled 1000A - if you can still get it somewhere.
> 
> ...




That isn't much trouble. It costs $800.





I don't think I would have any trouble with that. Not at all. My DV is about the same and I only need to turn up my volume to 3 where my dac needs 10. And that is with my Jolida JD9 at it's lowest amplification (*55dB* 
I don't really ever remember having trouble with tracking other than with my Kiseki Blue from 198x (? vdH retipped in 1987). ATOC9 tracked like a champ, so does the DV Karat D17 and so does the Koetsu. 



> However, I DO NOT like transformers anywhere in the audio signal path. It is true that preamps capable of equaling and/or bettering them do not grow on trees, but they can be at least DIYed. Transformers are also extremely impedance sensitive, meaning you change the MC cart to one with sufficiently different impedance, that means change of transformer too. Not exactly my idea of flexibility.



This part I don't agree on, but just from what little experience I have. I like passive components because they don't deteriorate the signal (much). My Audio Innovations tranny is top of the line, with silver coils and impedance switch. So maybe I have never heard any of the negatives that you speak about. But I doubt a simpler transformer would do that much worse. Like I said, when I use a different impedance neither sounds really wrong. Its just like using the 4 or 8 Ohm taps on my tubeamp but then about half the effect. It's more like a nuance of 'bigger, looser' vs 'narrower, tighter'. 
If I wouldn't have the step-up transformer I think I would not be as avid a LO-MC fan. Nor vinyl fan.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Denon also has always made step-up transformers too. (same Ebay seller)








Supposed best match with the DL-S1
Specifications Boosting ratio: 1:13 Load impedance: 47k Ohms Frequency range: 10Hz - 80kHz Size: W150×H70×D175mm Mass: 3.2kg





One more small one from the innards of the Denon AU-1000 MC Step Up Transformer. Looks impressive.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> That isn't much trouble. It costs $800.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Denon made, in spite of many MC transformers, HA-500 and HA-1000 headamps - or, since this is head-fi and this name may puzzle some readers -
 pre-preamplifiers. These are even more sought after than their transformers.
  
 But, if you really must use transformers, there is a MUCH better way. 1 ohm internal resistance carts - or even lower - that really can take advantage of transformers, their noise contribution, etc. Trouble is that transformation besides voltage also steps up the input impedance - squared. 40 ohm of Denon carts is squared 1600 ohm - and that is the thermal noise of a resistor any phono stage sees. This thermal noise is far greater than input noise of decent phono stages, even tube designs. 1 ohm squared is still 1 ohm - or 1/1600th of noise presented to the input of the phono stage. As the textbooks are fond of saying, conversion of that to dBs is left as an exercise to the reader.
  
 So - why do you think Benz makes TR cartridge? Sumasumarum, amplified either by iron or good silicon it appreciably improves upon Ruby/Ebony level.
 1 ohm internal impedance, 0.1 mV output voltage - properly amplified, quiter than in the graveyard ... with the dynamics to wake the dead - something Denon 40 ohms carts will always have trouble with.


----------



## ]eep

Can I give you a tip Ananalog surviver? If you quote me, pls delete the pictures from the quote. This should make it more readable. If anyone knows how I can make linked pictures appear smaller I would be happy too. 

So I suppose my carts were just lucky? ATOC9 with 12 Ohms, Kiseki 5 Ohm and Koetsu Urushi with 5 Ohms? The DV Karat D17 has 38 Ohms but I didn't really notice any negative effects. It was dead quiet. So is my current Urushi and the rest. It did have a different soundcharacter but that is IMO the character of the cart itself. Very neutral, tight bass, very fast, VERY dynamic.

The Dynavector DV 20x2L would also be no trouble with 0.3mV at 5 Ohms. This is actually the one I recommend, and the price will allow for a good step-up for a combined price of $1,000.




I think I need to elaborate of the pro's and cons of the HO vs LO. The following I translate loosely on the review in dutch of the DV20X2L.
_The high output has an easy to amplify 2.8mV. This is enough for MM but will give a slightly lower output than normal real MM carts. Some might consider it just a bit too low.
The advantage of the low output _(translated, not my opinion, not even a 'reason' per sé IMO) _is that you can use a high grade preamp or even a seperate MC-transformer that often has a positive effect on the sound. Is is a more expensive solution but it will yield better results. _ (here it comes, the reason why) _The mass of the coils in a low-putput MC is considerably lower than those of a high-output model that simply needs more windings to generate the higher voltage. Because of this a low output model will generally give a more refined sound, with more speed, dynamics and detail. That is why the more expensive models are only sold in low-output models. The difference is significant enough for the prospective buyer to make a definite choice._
Source for those of you that read Dutch. 

I tested the Karat D17 with and without transformer on MM and MC on my Jolida JD9 (which is excellent on both) but is was no contest. Step-up into MM sounds more open, more dynamic, better bass. Just all-round better. Straight into MC sounds in comparison more like a transistoramp than tubelike. I'm not quite sure how the JD9 amplifies the different signals (if it uses extra opamps for MC or just a lower amplification factor on all 6 opamps, I suppose the latter). I still have to do some more digging in the diagram, and replace some couplingcaps between those opamps.
So, even though I do not have the technical insight you have (yet? working on it) my personal experience is that I am very, very, very happy with my step-up transformer. Well worth it's steep price.


----------



## Jasper9395

Hi all, I've been upgrading my Rega P3-24 bit by bit in the past weeks so I thought I would share some pictures. I've got the double pulley mod, a metal sub-platter, upgraded sub-platter bearing, counterweight. Besides the standard felt I also tried a cork mat but have settled on an Acrylic one. I also made an isolation plinth for it with adjustable feet to get everything exactly level. I have added some Sorbonne under the TT feet and 'spike shoes' for extra isolation. I've got a Michell/Trichord Delphini phono-stage (upgraded from a phono-mini) which was a huge improvement. The tone arm has a Goldring 2200 cartrage on it right now. I was going to upgrade it to a Goldring erocia LX which I got 2nd hand but sadly I had to return it to the ebay seller as it had a bent cantilever . Over all I'm very happy with the way it sounds right now though. I got the metal sub-platter and double pulley mod from a guy in Argentina on ebay who makes and sells them for a very good price. The sub platter in particular is of high quality. My counterweight is also off ebay (a guy from England somewhere made it) and is made out of brass. I have also been quite happy with it. I paid 20 Pounds which is much better than some of the branded ones out there.


----------



## bbophead

The pictures are excellent.  I'll bet you're pleased with the improvement in sound.


----------



## mulveling

This marks the 3rd time I've tried the Rogue Ares phono stage, and now finally (paired with Bob's Devices 1131 SUT -- add me to the list of folks that likes a SUT w/ tube MM stage) it perfectly integrates together and gels with the last couple of major upgrades (the Clearaudio Innovation TT, Graham Phantom arm, and Tannoy Canterbury speakers). Not too bad, considering it's the most affordable component in that system. It all sounds GREAT together, after a lot of pain trying to nail down those last details to balance everything out. Now the (ever optimistic) plan is to not change anything major again for at least a couple years. I need record weight & ruing clamp, but those doesn't count as "major" changes. 
  
 The Ares' lid is off in this pic (easy tube access):


----------



## Silent One

Nice to see such effort.


----------



## Jasper9395

bbophead said:


> I'll bet you're pleased with the improvement in sound.


 
 Yes, I am. It really surprised me how small changes can make such a big difference. Each change also did something very particular so it was interesting to learn how each of the components affects the sound of the TT. The double pulley was the most surprising to me. It just pulled everything into focus and improved the sound stage. This really helped my HD650s. I'm still on the hunt for a nice 2nd hand cartage and TT PSU.


----------



## Silent One

The double-pulley is interesting... well done!


----------



## analogsurviver

mulveling said:


> This marks the 3rd time I've tried the Rogue Ares phono stage, and now finally (paired with Bob's Devices 1131 SUT -- add me to the list of folks that likes a SUT w/ tube MM stage) it perfectly integrates together and gels with the last couple of major upgrades (the Clearaudio Innovation TT, Graham Phantom arm, and Tannoy Canterbury speakers). Not too bad, considering it's the most affordable component in that system. It all sounds GREAT together, after a lot of pain trying to nail down those last details to balance everything out. Now the (ever optimistic) plan is to not change anything major again for at least a couple years. I need record weight & ruing clamp, but those doesn't count as "major" changes.
> 
> The Ares' lid is off in this pic (easy tube access):


 
 The green cart perched under the nose of Graham?
  
 SUT/HSD (Hollow State Devices ) are not my game, but I sure do like Tannoys !


----------



## Jasper9395

One more, its the insides of he Trichord/Michell Delphini. Some nice components here Mundorf Mcap Supremes and rubycon caps inside. The power caps are Phillips.


----------



## Delirious Lab

This is very modest compared to what some of you have posted... but it's what I've got and it's making me 95% happy so far.  Technics SL-20.
  


  
 Question: For the remaining 5% of happiness that I'm missing, is there a cartridge under $100 that would allow me to hear Birgit Nilsson's shrieking Wagner without distortion?  Or do I just have to wait until wife & wallet allow me to upgrade to a better TT?


----------



## ]eep

Ziet er goed uit Jasper!

Good photo's too. Looks like you also put a lot of attention into the acoustics of your room. One tip about the plank you put under the TT; it looks like 18mm MDF. The material is good on itself but if you can lay your hands on a slab of stone (hardsteen of graniet) that would sonically improve things. The reason is that the MDF platter has about the same mass as the turntables body. This would cause exitation in the same frequency with FI walking sounds. If you would take a big slab of stone the mass would be much higher, and thus the resonacefrequency lower, isolating the TT from anything higher including the TT's own resonancefreq. You can even tune the frequency with a trick: use only 2 spikes in the front which will function as a hingepoint and use small blocks of closed cell foam that can act as support as well as shockbreaker. You can adjust the frequency by varying the distance between the spikes and the foamblocks just like a pendulum on grandmothers clock. I find it to be very effective against strong LF airborne sounds like slamming doors and against walking sounds on a wooden floor.

Mulvelng: your TT is absolutely awesome. And beautifull.
The green cartridge looks just like a Milltek Aurora, but that would seem a bit lowly to me. So my guess would be the more appropriate Koetsu Jade. 

Edit, it is a Koetsu Jade! It is, it is. Wow.


----------



## parbaked

There are some different theories on how to best isolate a Rega.
 The Rega plinth is designed to be a light and stiff as possible so as NOT to "absorb" any vibration that will later be re-transmitted back to the TT.
 It is a very different strategy than using a high mass or suspended plinth.
 As such some feel that a Rega performs best when supported on a similarly light and stiff platform.
 The thought is that a heavy base can store and re-transmit vibrations back up to the super light plinth.
 Two popular solutions for Rega fans are:
 1. The Rega wall shelf, which is a rigid, open metal frame - like a Linn Kan speaker stand.
 2. Ikea Lack side table but only the black or white colors which have a glossy "shell" over a very light paper mulch core. This is as about as light and rigid a combination as can be found off the shelf.
  
 I find the Rega design works well for what it is. It may not be as effective (or sexy) as a high mass plinth and isolation base, but I do prefer it to the suspended designs.
  
 Rega on a <$10 Lack table...


----------



## Shaffer

parbaked said:


> There are some different theories on how to best isolate a Rega.
> 
> 
> [...]
> ...



 


Excellent post. Very good coverage and correct advice. Yes, there is such a thing as "correct" in a world ruled by preference.


----------



## mulveling

analogsurviver said:


> The green cart perched under the nose of Graham?
> 
> SUT/HSD (Hollow State Devices ) are not my game, but I sure do like Tannoys !


 
  
 As Jeep correctly deduced, it's a Koetsu Jade Platinum. Koetsu is somewhat polarizing, but I fell for their sound almost as hard as I did for Tannoys. The Canterbury SE are my 4th pair in an 8-year progression up the Tannoy line: Eyris DC3 > Dimension TD10 > Kensington SE > Canterbury SE. Had them a over year now, but finally got my system all locked-in an gelling beautifully between the Canterbury/Clearaudio/Koetsu/Rogue. Upgrading can be equal parts frustration and fun until you get everything working together nicely. 
 Haha, "hollow state" -- I actually like that.
  


]eep said:


> Mulvelng: your TT is absolutely awesome. And beautifull.
> The green cartridge looks just like a Milltek Aurora, but that would seem a bit lowly to me. So my guess would be the more appropriate Koetsu Jade.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good eye, and many thanks. I loved my previous SOTA Star table, but got hooked when a I first heard the Clearaudio Innovation Compact last winter. Very fast/resolving/dynamic sound (without being analytical, lean, or bright), and tonally neutral. Not being able to hear the Graham before ordering, I struggled with the decision between that and the Clearaudio Universal.


----------



## bbophead

parbaked said:


> There are some different theories on how to best isolate a Rega.
> The Rega plinth is designed to be a light and stiff as possible so as NOT to "absorb" any vibration that will later be re-transmitted back to the TT.
> It is a very different strategy than using a high mass or suspended plinth.
> As such some feel that a Rega performs best when supported on a similarly light and stiff platform.
> ...


 
 Thanks for posting something more in my class.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I agree.  My Target wall shelf from the '80s does a fine job.
  
 The RP6 replaced an Oracle Delphi MK I/Jelco 250-C/Koetsu Onyx.  I enjoy playing records much more now.  Go figure.


----------



## Jasper9395

Thanks for the advice on isolation. Incidentally I've also got the TT sitting on an Ikea side table, unfortunately it is a red one. I might try and put it on a wall mount. Is there anything special about the Rega one? Using a stone slab is interesting too but I guess you just have to be lucky to come across a piece that's thick enough. The isolation before was quite bad, when playing loud music I could actually feel vibrations when I put my hand on the plynth. Regardless, I still think the Rega tables are quit good for the money specially because you can upgrade them. This means you don't have to put down all the money at once.


----------



## parbaked

jasper9395 said:


> Thanks for the advice on isolation. Incidentally I've also got the TT sitting on an Ikea side table, unfortunately it is a red one. I might try and put it on a wall mount. Is there anything special about the Rega one? Using a stone slab is interesting too but I guess you just have to be lucky to come across a piece that's thick enough. The isolation before was quite bad, when playing loud music I could actually feel vibrations when I put my hand on the plynth. Regardless, I still think the Rega tables are quit good for the money specially because you can upgrade them. This means you don't have to put down all the money at once.


 
 The difference between the Rega wall shelf and others is that the Rega shelf doesn't have a shelf!
 Instead it has three height adjustable cups that fit the three feet on all Regas. As such their is no MDF or wood shelf to vibrate (airborne stuff etc).
 As such it is arguably 'better' match for Regas, but would require modification to use with a non-Rega turntable.
  
 Rega shelf

  
 With a Rega mounted (no that is NOT my wallpaper!)

  
 Other turntable wall shelves tend to be shelves so they can be used most with any TT or other component...


----------



## Jasper9395

parbaked said:


> The difference between the Rega wall shelf and others is that the Rega shelf doesn't have a shelf!


 
 Ah I see, thanks. I might get one, at 99 pounds it's not that bad in terms of price.
  
 BTW does anyone have any experience with upgrading the plinth itself? The quest inspire upgrades seem to be getting some excellent reviews.
  
 http://www.inspirehifi.co.uk/quest.html


----------



## ]eep

mulveling said:


> As Jeep correctly deduced, it's a Koetsu Jade Platinum. Koetsu is somewhat polarizing, but I fell for their sound almost as hard as I did for Tannoys. The Canterbury SE are my 4th pair in an 8-year progression up the Tannoy line: Eyris DC3 > Dimension TD10 > Kensington SE > Canterbury SE. Had them a over year now, but finally got my system all locked-in an gelling beautifully between the Canterbury/Clearaudio/Koetsu/Rogue. Upgrading can be equal parts frustration and fun until you get everything working together nicely.
> Haha, "hollow state" -- I actually like that.
> 
> 
> Good eye, and many thanks. I loved my previous SOTA Star table, but got hooked when a I first heard the Clearaudio Innovation Compact last winter. Very fast/resolving/dynamic sound (without being analytical, lean, or bright), and tonally neutral. Not being able to hear the Graham before ordering, I struggled with the decision between that and the Clearaudio Universal.



I think we come very close in taste/preference. I almost would have bought a pair of Tannoys too. The DC10T. But I wasn't to sure how they would combine with a 300B. When I came across a pair of Genesis VI for much less € it was a no brainer. 

Of course I had to spot the Jade because I own a Koetsu too. An Urushi Wajima that is. The foto's wasn't sharp enough to see the jade veigns but then I saw the black yoke. 
Just for the beauty of it. The flower (some kind of agave) I have been nourishing for almost as long as I have been dreaming of buying the Urushi (that is 30 years).

click or hover HERE to see the big picture




parbaked said:


> There are some different theories on how to best isolate a Rega.
> The Rega plinth is designed to be a light and stiff as possible so as NOT to "absorb" any vibration that will later be re-transmitted back to the TT.
> It is a very different strategy than using a high mass or suspended plinth.
> As such some feel that a Rega performs best when supported on a similarly light and stiff platform.
> ...



About the support for the Rega: there is more than one way to skin a cat (strategies). But there is only one theory. In building construction it is called foundation technique. Foundation technique is all about distribution of stress, frequencies, mass and decoupling. If you suspend a 5kg mass on another 5kg mass once 1 is in resonance the other *will* follow. If you suspend a 5kg mass on a 50kg mass it will move with the same low frequency. If you suspend a 50kg mass on a 5 kg mass it will likely not move. And by suspend I mean springloaded with shockabsorbers.

There is a contradiction in above story. The Rega wall 'shelf' is actually coupled to a very heavy mass... the wall it is attached to.  You can do the same with a pair of heavy duty (=triangular) wall brackets ($10 total) and something to level with. 

The trick is to _think_ about what you are doing, and just like I said: it is important to have a very different mass from the TT body itself. The Ikea-table is the other side of the scale (lighter vs heavier). I wouldn't use that on a wooden floor. It transfers all energy straight up into the arm. Every problem asks for a different solution. 
The Ikea Lack table was actually promoted by Linn as the ideal stand for the LP12.


----------



## parbaked

]eep said:


> click or hover HERE to see the big picture
> About the support for the Rega: there is more than one way to skin a cat (strategies). But there is only one theory. In building construction it is called foundation technique. Foundation technique is all about distribution of stress, frequencies, mass and decoupling. If you suspend a 5kg mass on another 5kg mass once 1 is in resonance the other *will* follow. If you suspend a 5kg mass on a 50kg mass it will move with the same low frequency. If you suspend a 50kg mass on a 5 kg mass it will likely not move. And by suspend I mean springloaded with shockabsorbers.
> 
> There is a contradiction in above story. The Rega wall 'shelf' is actually coupled to a very heavy mass... the wall it is attached to.
> ...


 
 Wow, that is one beautiful cartridge!
  
 The point I was making is that there is more than one theory as to how to isolate a Rega.
 Some Rega users swear by a light, rigid platform instead of marble, just as I believe some owners of heavy plinth TTs like using a marble platform ie. heavy with heavy.
 Most 'designed for Rega' platforms are acrylic with isolating feet.
 My conclusion is that each solves it's own problem and might well create others.
 I changed the feet on my Rega and now just use it on a heavy bookcase with no other isolation. Works just as well as with my acrylic platform...
  
 The wall mounting is altogether different so it is really not a contradiction. It is designed to physically separate the TT from floor vibration, instead of provide a barrier between.
 Yes one can make a DIY shelf, but to be really effective you'd want to weld in some cross bracings so your shelf and screws isn't providing the structural rigidity.
 The Rega design (or any with a welded cross brace) is an improvement over basic wall brackets and screwed in shelf. 
 I'd buy a used Rega shelf from someone who decided they can't deal with a TT hanging on their living room wall.
  
 I never heard of the Lack with the LP12. I only see the reference all over the UK Rega forums. Again I was only pointing out this other path, not promoting it.
  
 Did I mention how beautiful your Koetsu is?


----------



## analogsurviver

delirious lab said:


> This is very modest compared to what some of you have posted... but it's what I've got and it's making me 95% happy so far.  Technics SL-20.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Mmmm - Birgit Nillson. I have her singing some Mahler, can not think which one right off the bat.
  
 But it is an expensive taste for cartridges. Perhaps some NOS vintage - but you have to be lucky. Will check ebay later today if there is anything useful for you.
  
  
  
  
  
  
 there


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> Mmmm - Birgit Nillson. I have her singing some Mahler, can not think which one right off the bat.
> 
> But it is an expensive taste for cartridges. Perhaps some NOS vintage - but you have to be lucky. Will check ebay later today if there is anything useful for you.
> 
> ...


 
 Don't know of any Birgit Nilsson/Mahler recordings.  I'd like to know what you have.


----------



## calipilot227

Rega's design philosophy sounds like it shouldn't work, and it's easy to knock it if one hasn't experienced it firsthand. But once you've heard one, it's hard to go back.
  
 Just like you aren't a true petrol-head until you've owned an Alfa Romeo, you're not a true vinyl-head until you've owned a Rega


----------



## parbaked

Yeah, both are worth listening to even if not totally dialed in!


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Don't know of any Birgit Nilsson/Mahler recordings.  I'd like to know what you have.


 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6CDYxMQ_dM
  
 I mistook it for Birgit Finnila ( with two dots over tha last a ), in Das lied von der Erde, Kurt Sanderling conducting Berliner-Simphonie-Orkester, on ETERNA 8 27 830. Please see current ebay listing # 300740064526. Unfortunately not listed on Discogs.
  
My apologies !


----------



## analogsurviver

mulveling said:


> As Jeep correctly deduced, it's a Koetsu Jade Platinum. Koetsu is somewhat polarizing, but I fell for their sound almost as hard as I did for Tannoys. The Canterbury SE are my 4th pair in an 8-year progression up the Tannoy line: Eyris DC3 > Dimension TD10 > Kensington SE > Canterbury SE. Had them a over year now, but finally got my system all locked-in an gelling beautifully between the Canterbury/Clearaudio/Koetsu/Rogue. Upgrading can be equal parts frustration and fun until you get everything working together nicely.
> Haha, "hollow state" -- I actually like that.
> 
> 
> Good eye, and many thanks. I loved my previous SOTA Star table, but got hooked when a I first heard the Clearaudio Innovation Compact last winter. Very fast/resolving/dynamic sound (without being analytical, lean, or bright), and tonally neutral. Not being able to hear the Graham before ordering, I struggled with the decision between that and the Clearaudio Universal.


 
 Sorry for late reply - busy with other things. I was "hoping" for some more exotic unheard of cart, but Koetsu is always nice. I particularly like their way of mounting the stylus to the cantilever - it ensures proper alignment nomatterwhat, for a slight penalty in mass - making Koetsus more sample to sample reliable than other brands. Invisible to most, I like it better than their cartridge body extravaganza.
  
 I am interested in your comments on the SOTA Star.


----------



## alan_g




----------



## alan_g

my other turntable....linn sondek lp12


----------



## parbaked

jasper9395 said:


> Ah I see, thanks. I might get one, at 99 pounds it's not that bad in terms of price.
> 
> BTW does anyone have any experience with upgrading the plinth itself? The quest inspire upgrades seem to be getting some excellent reviews.
> 
> http://www.inspirehifi.co.uk/quest.html


 
 Joel at Audiowood also makes custom wood plinths for Regas.
 He will also install your motor/tonearm or even upgrade motor to 24V.
 http://audiowood.com/gallery/rega_plinths.html
 Every thing from simple:

  
 ...to more elaborate

  
 If you are lucky enough to have a conservatory, you must get a Sound Garden


----------



## calipilot227

That last one looks like a Pro-ject.....


----------



## parbaked

calipilot227 said:


> That last one looks like a Pro-ject.....


 
 Well, you wouldn't do that to a Rega!


----------



## bbophead

alan_g said:


> my other turntable....linn sondek lp12


 
 Pretty.  They both look the business.


----------



## ]eep

Well, why not? It is rather unconventional for sure. But why do we seperate technology so strickly from nature like some sort of Saruman? A strange urge to preserve thing in one state instead of going with the flow and growing. Sand in the plinth is not bad. Ok, moisture for plants is not a good idea next to your precious vinyl or exotic cartridge. Oh well... 

But he can think up pretty cool designs too, like this one:


----------



## dosley01

calipilot227 said:


> That last one looks like a Pro-ject.....


 

 Close, Music Hall.


----------



## parbaked

]eep said:


> Well, why not?


 
 It was a joke for Rega fans i.e. he'd build a TT with a plant using a Pro-ject or Music Hall tonearm, but NOT a Rega.
  
 Joel is actually most known for the simple Rega based "Barkey" which he sometimes keeps in stock as he tends to make these in small batches :

 or using a exotic piece of lumber and various innards for a one of kind deck:

  
 I'm not sure solid wood is a good option for a TT plinth, but his Rega plinths are veneered plywood, which makes more sense to me:


----------



## analogsurviver

All of the above preceded ( and inspired ? ) by :
  
  
  

  
 AD 1977 ( SME 3009 Series 2 Improved arm (non detacheable headshell version ), cart most likely then TOTL Shure, the V15 Type III )


----------



## Punnisher

Grainy cell phone pictures, but I don't care. Really excited about the new Acoustics II album.


----------



## ]eep

So, I'm making a little progress again. I just bought a new Yaqin MS22b tubed phonoamp for my other arm (Consonance T988 with Decca Blue). I had one before but sold it due to popular demand. I'll have to modify it again, but since I've done it before that shouldn't give me too much trouble. Straight from the factory it has some nasty hum issues (bad grounding points) and the sound isn't really clear. But those can both be fixed. 
And of course some tube rolling. 

i'm just wondering: when I look at the input, there is only a 47k resistor, but no capacitance. Would I be needing that for the Decca Blue?


----------



## Silent One




----------



## parbaked

^^Now that's more like it!


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## Silent One

parbaked said:


> ^^Now that's more like it!


 
  
 You mean the TT on a dinner tray 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 wasn't cuttin' it?!


----------



## parbaked

Yes, I feel SO much better knowing you have  a tray table for your tea and crumpets when you are listening!





 
 Them Shindos SOOOO sweet...


----------



## Silent One

Thanks! Tomorrow, we hook up the KEF Corda 9's and see what they can do over tea.


----------



## longbowbbs

silent one said:


> parbaked said:
> 
> 
> > ^^Now that's more like it!
> ...


 
 Truly an all time great Head-Fi picture!


----------



## Silent One

> Originally Posted by *longbowbbs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> Truly an all time great Head-Fi picture!


 
  





 We all know what Ray Charles famously said about playing a dilapidated piano... _"I'm going to make it do what it do, baby!"_


----------



## analogsurviver

_W  I   L  M  A !  !  !  !   !  !  !_
  
*Is that Mercury I picked up for testing my new FlintStylus ready yet ...?*
  
  
  

  
_Coming right up,__ Fred !_


----------



## bbophead

BRILLIANT!!!!!


----------



## ]eep

Nice rack! (don't use that as an openingline in a bar). 
Maybe the most underestimated part of an audio setup. 

Only my question got snowed under: 
_I'm just wondering: when I look at the input, there is only a 47k resistor, but no capacitance. Would I be needing that for the Decca Blue? _


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Nice rack! (don't use that as an openingline in a bar).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Did not forget your capacitance question; Decca is unfortunately THE greatest above-royal level PITA when it comes to loading - and it is model AND sample specific, that means your #number requires somewhat different loading than the same model with just one #numer higher or lower than yours - but may be the same loading as some other model/#number Decca. No other way than to test yours with GOOD test records  ( basically, ALL are extinct by now, partly slowly becoming available again as re-releases or new test records at least approaching the precision of the ones from The Gold Age of Analog ) - and at least an oscilloscope. With flat frequency response at the very least to 100 kHz ( that will discard most PC based "oscilloscopes" - an analog scope (and some digital storage...) is FAR better ).
  
 No "generic" loading for Decca cart(s), I am afraid. Just google "Decca cartridge loading" ( or similar ) - and good luck ...; you will need it !


----------



## calipilot227

Having fun with strobes. Can't go wrong with a turntable as your subject.


----------



## sterling1

Here's a pic of my turntable, a Sony PS-4750 with Shure V15mr cartridge. Turntable is 4th component from bottom of rack.


----------



## bbophead

Very neat, indeed!
  
 Can you tell us what the other components are?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## sterling1

The equipment is listed in my tag.


----------



## bbophead

Thanks.


----------



## parbaked

Spinning time...


----------



## Silent One

parbaked said:


> Spinning time...


 
  
 I'm feelin' a bit more relaxed just looking at it spin under the Benz-o...


----------



## parbaked

silent one said:


> I'm feelin' a bit more relaxed just looking at it spin under the Benz-o...


 
 Noticed these speakers for sale on agon & thought of you...


----------



## Silent One

parbaked said:


> Noticed these speakers for sale on agon & thought of you...


 
  
 Those speakers are gorgeous. The owner here capture my own ideal - clean minimal design with only a few quality pieces. I'm not after a garage full of amps or a room full of shoes. Collecting does have its place, but...


----------



## ]eep

Very nice indeed. Very clean. But it looks more like a gallery than a home to me. No optical disc player, no media player, no tv, no coffee table. No life.


----------



## Shaffer

]eep said:


> Very nice indeed. Very clean. But* it looks more like a gallery than a home to me. No optical disc player, no media player, no tv, no coffee table. No life*.




Your comment is ignorant and offensive. There's absolutely no reason to insult this man. Just the opposite, really.


----------



## CrazyRay

shaffer said:


> Your comment is ignorant and offensive. There's absolutely no reason to insult this man. Just the opposite, really.


 
 X2 Shaffer, I love the look just the way it is.

 I do not have a TV anywhere near my stereo system.
 Music only!


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> Very nice indeed. Very clean. But it looks more like a gallery than a home to me. No optical disc player, no media player, no tv, no coffee table. No life.


 
 I'm sure you were kidding.
  
 "No optical disc player, no media player, no tv, no coffee table. No life."
  
 You're right about the above, no life, of your own.


----------



## parbaked

crazyray said:


> X2 Shaffer, I love the look just the way it is.
> 
> I do not have a TV anywhere near my stereo system.
> Music only!


 
 C-Ray, those are NOT the best pictures of your amazing room!
 Stop holding out man...


----------



## parbaked

]eep said:


> Very nice indeed. Very clean. But it looks more like a gallery than a home to me. No optical disc player, no media player, no tv, no coffee table. No life.


 
 Hi Jeep. I had no idea TV was so important to Dutch folk...
  
 I posted the pics for The Silent One because I knew they matched his aesthetic and the system is Shindo drive!
 I am so worried his Sinhonias will puke if he feeds them a load from his 90's loaner KEFS 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




!
 Most importantly the Silent One has a folding tea table and no need for superfluous furnishings in his listening space.
  
 BTW the guy is moving cross country and selling everything. He saved the stereo for last so he could listen till the end. Give him a break!


----------



## CrazyRay

parbaked said:


> C-Ray, those are NOT the best pictures of your amazing room!
> Stop holding out man...


 
 LOL!
 Thanks for the compliment parbaked!
 Here are a couple more, enjoy.


----------



## Silent One

crazyray said:


> LOL!
> Thanks for the compliment parbaked!
> Here are a couple more, enjoy.


 
  





 Hmmm, an evening at Charlie Trotter's or CrazyRay's? Well presented, CrazyRay...


----------



## Errymoose

I've seen pictures of it before, but that room is probably still the nicest looking one I've seen pictures of here...


----------



## Silent One

parbaked said:


> Hi Jeep. I had no idea TV was so important to Dutch folk...
> 
> I posted the pics for The Silent One because I knew they matched his aesthetic and the system is Shindo drive!
> I am so worried his Sinhonias will puke if he feeds them a load from his 90's loaner KEFS
> ...


 
  
 Your sentiments warm me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, thanks for the holiday spirit. My mono blocks push the KEFs or the not so efficient HE-6 like a walk in the park.


----------



## ]eep

shaffer said:


> Your comment is ignorant and offensive. There's absolutely no reason to insult this man. Just the opposite, really.




I find your comment puzzling. I do not intend to offend anyone. Maybe you shouldn't be offended so easily? My comment was just an observation and I started off with two compliments. The room _looks_ like a museum. Not like there are any music around, children, or people... The room also reminds me of those audioshows in hotels and conference centres. Million dollar setups that no-one can afford. Or a zen garden that no-one is alowed to walk in. It looks lifeless, incomplete, setup for a photo. Just like I make product photographs. That's all. 

Sure I like a tidy room, but my livingroom is a *living*-room. And yes, that includes watching tv. I need the screen to see what I am playing on my HTPC. Playing LP's is nice for attentive listening but I like playing background-music too. I don't want to go back and forth flipping discs every 15 mins. Playing flacs is much more convenient and with better quality and less hassle than cd's (or some lp's ftm). I really, really like playing vinyl. But I have difficulty accepting that it would be anyones _only_ medium. I mean; this is the 21st century. Playing cd's is sooo last century. LP's are cool, but cumbersome and delicate at the same time. 

I like the turntable in the setup. Brinkman?


----------



## parbaked

silent one said:


> My mono blocks push the KEFs or the not so efficient HE-6 like a walk in the park.


 
 No doubt, but they are whispering to you (in Japanese): "we are your humble servants master, please acquire a pair of LaTours so that we can please you better....

  honestly yours are my favorite Shindos (the Aurieges too - so clean and compact). The oil cans on the Sinhonia are precious!


----------



## Errymoose

So it doesn't suit how you like to listen to music.  Doesn't make it bad, or wrong or whatever.
  
 I'm sure it's possible to go and do other things while there's music playing on that system too...


----------



## Silent One

parbaked said:


> No doubt, but they are whispering to you (in Japanese): "we are your humble servants master, please acquire a pair of LaTours so that we can please you better....
> 
> honestly yours are my favorite Shindos (the Aurieges too - so clean and compact). The oil cans on the Sinhonia are precious!


 
  
 It so happens, the very first time I heard my Sinhonia's, they were leashed up to the LaTour field coils. My appointment to go pick up my gear included a listening session for a few hours of vinyl at the studio. I listened to LaTours/300B mono block pairing the first hour. Then we swapped-in my Sinhonia's for the next few hours... a fun afternoon!


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> I'm sorry if I offended anyone. This was surely not my intention. Maybe you shouldn't be offended so easily? My comment was just an observation. It's not the room of anyone here is it? The room looks like a museum. Not like there are any children around, or people... The room also reminds me of those audioshows in hotels and conference centres. Million dollar setups that no-one can afford. Or a zen garden that no-one is alowed to walk in. It looks lifeless, incomplete, setup for a photo. That's all.
> 
> Sure I like a tidy room, but my livingroom is a *living*room. And yes, that includes watching tv. I need the screen to see what I am playing on my HTPC. Playing LP's is nice for attentive listening but I like playing music when I'm doing other things too. I don't want to go back and forth flipping discs every 15 mins. avg. Playing flacs is much more convenient and with better quality and less hassle than cd's or lp's. I really, really like playing vinyl. But I have difficulty accepting that it would be anyones only medium. I mean; this is the 21st century. Playing cd's is sooo last century. LP's are cool, but cumbersome and delicate at the same time.
> 
> I like the turntable in the setup.


 
 It would be nice if you could accept that other people do things differently than you without criticizing them for it.  It's unfortunate that you need a screen in your living room in order to see what you're playing.  I just look at the record jacket next to me, nice big print with large nifty art work.  I'm glad, no, really, that you're so 21st century.  Actually, we all are whether we want to be or not, flac or no flac.


----------



## parbaked

> Originally Posted by *Errymoose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I'm sure it's possible to go and do other things while there's music playing on that system too...


 
 Maybe not for the first month or two...


----------



## parbaked

errymoose said:


> I've seen pictures of it before, but that room is probably still the nicest looking one I've seen pictures of here...


 
 No one has a man cave with two walls of windows except C-Ray!


----------



## ]eep

bbophead said:


> It would be nice if you could accept that other people do things differently than you without criticizing them for it.  It's unfortunate that you need a screen in your living room in order to see what you're playing.  I just look at the record jacket next to me, nice big print with large nifty art work.  I'm glad, no, really, that you're so 21st century.  Actually, we all are whether we want to be or not, flac or no flac.




Who says I don't? And how is criticising bad? Positive criticism is just as much criticism as negative or neutral comments. So I can't look at a picture and say what I think? Why should anybody be offended by what I think? You are giving me way too much credit for a casual remark. What's next? People are being offended when I call those speakers brown?

Tastes evolve. Lifestyles change. Everyone (almost) has a television. The photo we are talking about looks artificial, I don't buy it the owner never plays anything but lp's (is this grammatically correct?). Magritte: this is not a pipe. I see a painting... Call me ignorant? That's your opinion free to express. I know I'm not (most of the time  ).

_It's unfortunate that you need a screen in your living room in order to see what you're playing._
Actually, what I do when I want to look at the artwork is I take the LP of what I'm playing. Or look at the tv when I have it on and flip the pictures. But I wonder what you are looking at right now.... isn't that a screen just the same? Or should I write you a paper letter? One does not exclude the other.

Reading back I am wondering if my English is correct. Carries the right meaning. By "No optical disc player, no media player, no tv, no coffee table. *No life*." I do *not* mean to say the owner doesn't 'have a life' as the expression goes, but just that the room looks lifeless, devoid of life, without signs or traces of cohabitation. There are drawbacks in speaking English as a third language. Sometimes I don't catch a meaning. Sometimes I am literal when you read implied meaning. Etc. I'd like to see you write in Dutch, German, French, Spanish or Italian and make no mistake.

@ CrazyRay
I love that Eames loungechair. And how everything is in style. That takes a lot of discipline.


----------



## Errymoose

You did kinda say there's "no life" in a system without a screen.  Noone's putting words in your mouth.
  
 Everyone (almost) has a TV.  But must it be part of your hi-fi system?  Quite a few people enjoy listening to their high end audio rigs without the distractions of other things.  Not really your place to call them out on it.


----------



## parbaked

]eep said:


> Magritte: this is not a pipe. I see a painting... Call me ignorant? That's your opinion free to express. I know I'm not (most of the time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Not to be a snob but shouldn't quote Magritte so often unless you own a Magritte. 
 Here's mine:

 I'm just sayin'...


----------



## parbaked

silent one said:


> It so happens, the very first time I heard my Sinhonia's, they were leashed up to the LaTour field coils. My appointment to go pick up my gear included a listening session for a few hours of vinyl at the studio. I listened to LaTours/300B mono block pairing the first hour. Then we swapped-in my Sinhonia's for the next few hours... a fun afternoon!


 
 That was kinda my first experience as well. My ex-dealer's shop in Hong Kong...300B into the LaTour. I was so lucky I was moving back to the US and it was the wrong voltage because I was ready to sell my car (after I drove it home)! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Years later I saw/heard the Sinhonia at a friends and wow, to me, that's the nicest looking amp he's ever made. I'm just sayin'...


----------



## Silent One

parbaked said:


> That was kinda my first experience as well. My ex-dealer's shop in Hong Kong...300B into the LaTour. I was so lucky I was moving back to the US and it was the wrong voltage because I was ready to sell my car (after I drove it home)!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  





 So, then you already know, of all the models he could choose from the Sinhonia's were Ken Shindo's choice as the display model in his lounge since 1985. A long running tenure...


----------



## ]eep

I'm just sayin'.... I see a reproduction....

I have real original paintings on my wall. No glass in front of them either. But no Magrittes or Dalis. Quite out of my reach. 
-----


parbaked said:


> I posted the pics for The Silent One because I knew they matched his aesthetic and ....
> 
> BTW the guy is moving cross country and selling everything. He saved the stereo for last so he could listen till the end. Give him a break!



So, I guess my observation was right. Why should I give him a break for simply seeing/stating that? I already gave him 2 compliments for a half empty house... 
I do feel sorry for him though. Having to sell his precious items because he is moving. 
------
_You did kinda say there's "no life" in a system without a screen_
No, I did not. You shouldn't try to read what I'm not saying or meaning. I said: full stop, seperate sentence. "No life". Meaning just that, unrelated to the previous sentence. I did not say: "no tv, no life". 
_Noone's putting words in your mouth._
So, actually you are. I do not mean to offend anyone but you keep saying I am. No harm done (that is another way of saying you are forgiven), lets move on. Please.

-----
Since I see 300B tubes mentioned. Anyone any idea what new 300B's to get next? Mine are almost showing signs of wear (4600 hours says the counter). I was thinking PSVane, the TII or the new UK Design version? Bit off-topic but maybe someone has a good suggestion.


----------



## parbaked

]eep said:


> I'm just sayin'.... I see a reproduction....


 
 It is an original print, not a reproduction of a painting.
 Calling it a reproduction is a gotspe, if you know what I mean...
 (please stop while you are behind)


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> Tastes evolve. Lifestyles change. Everyone (almost) has a television. The photo we are talking about looks artificial, I don't buy it the owner never plays anything but lp's (is this grammatically correct?). Magritte: this is not a pipe. I see a painting... Call me ignorant? That's your opinion free to express. I know I'm not (most of the time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## CrazyRay

parbaked said:


> No one has a man cave with two walls of windows except C-Ray!


 
 Thank for all of the compliments guys.
 Just incase you are wondering what the view is outside of those windows, here it is.


----------



## parbaked

> Originally Posted by *]eep* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Quite out of my reach.


 
 That is the most relevant thing you have posted. (other than the pics of your sweet TT)
 I'm just sayin'...


----------



## parbaked

crazyray said:


> Thank for all of the compliments guys.
> Just incase you are wondering what the view is outside of those windows, here it is.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## analogsurviver

This post is unrelated to analog turntable cause, wanted to post it a week ago, but the facts of life are sometimes so cruel and hard I only now am somehow putting myself together.
  
 Do not want you to miss it entirely, please go to post # 742 of 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/626563/best-classical-recordings-ever/735


----------



## Silent One

Thanks... now downloading Kuniko-24/96 from LINN!


----------



## Shaffer

silent one said:


> Thanks... now downloading Kuniko-24/96 from LINN!




I have the (complete) SACD. It's very, very good.


----------



## Silent One




----------



## bbophead

Can't quite make out whatcha got but it looks nice.


----------



## parbaked

silent one said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


 
 That Pocan body is so industrial - chic! 




 Are you still cartridge shopping? 
 When I was Shindo window shopping I discovered the Aurieges prefers a good MM to the HOMC - my Benz is only 2.0mV (Eroica is stronger) and there was not enough gain and a distracting difference between line and phono levels. Matt at Pitch Perfect in SF has lots of experience matching cartridges to the Aurieges and maybe worth a phone call for some ideas - hang up when he tells you NEED the dedicated phono pre-amp and a whole load of cartridges to play with...


----------



## Silent One

> Originally Posted by *parbaked* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> That Pocan body is so industrial - chic!
> ...


 
  





 Matt is patient. Wanted to start me off with the Monbrison, so my climb would be two steps fewer. When I can displace enough Jasmine Dragon Pearls inside their tins with cash, then up the ladder we go. This could take a while... currently seeking work. A new cart would come quicker but that's on hold. Though, I see no reason
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 to stop shopping... still undecided on which one at this writing.
  
 What would be your affordable recommendation for cart?


----------



## Silent One

bbophead said:


> Can't quite make out whatcha got but it looks nice.


 
 Music Hall MMF-7 TT
 Factory installed Goldring Eroica H cart
 Record - Promo copy of Yamaha R&D Studios Session III
  
 19 year old Keiko Doi (Keiko Matsui) appears on this recording.


----------



## parbaked

silent one said:


> Matt is patient. Wanted to start me off with the Monbrison, so my climb would be two steps fewer.
> What would be your affordable recommendation for cart?


 
 Climb where?  Your Aurieges > Sinhonia is my favorite combo.
 The other pre-amps are too precious and the plexi will scratch and will bother you for life. To me the only preferable combo is the line Aurieges + separate phono.
  
 For affordable cartridges I really like the Ortofon 2M in whatever price you desire....
 It's not an upgrade from the Eroica but maybe more compatible with the Aurieges. 
 I don't think I'd get anything more exotic for that table/tonearm.
  
 I am a simple is better guy. I've had my entry level VTLs for 20+ years....


----------



## Silent One

> Originally Posted by *parbaked* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> Climb where?  Your Aurieges > Sinhonia is my favorite combo.
> ...


----------



## parbaked

Spinning some MJQ pre-dinner Left Coast time...


----------



## Silent One

parbaked said:


> Spinning some MJQ pre-dinner Left Coast time...


 
  
 No wonder they call it _"The City That Knows How"_.... thanks in part to residents like you!


----------



## Redcarmoose

Somebody should make a company that sells a few parts as well as the plans to print a turntable on a 3d printer. That would be so cool!


----------



## calipilot227

redcarmoose said:


> Somebody should make a company that sells a few parts as well as the plans to print a turntable on a 3d printer. That would be so cool!



We're getting there...


----------



## Eee Pee

Not mine but whatever...  
  

  
  
The new VPI Nomad was recently announced on Bloomberg Television. This new all in one lifestyle product will be available early 2014. The Nomad includes a phono pre-amplifier and analog outputs for connection to an existing stereo, sound bar, or wireless tabletop radio. Also includes:

 - Grado Labs iGrado headphones.
 - ORTOFON Vinyl Preservation Academy 2M Red cartridge.
 - Headphone amplifier.
 - Full upgrade path.

 Stay tuned for more information!
  
  
  
  







​​


----------



## parbaked

eee pee said:


> Not mine but whatever...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 What, no Beats....


----------



## Eee Pee

Probably didn't want to triple (or w/e) the cost.
  
 The iGrado is like, really?  And not having a Grado cart is a small surprise.


----------



## Destroysall

parbaked said:


> Climb where?  Your Aurieges > Sinhonia is my favorite combo.
> The other pre-amps are too precious and the plexi will scratch and will bother you for life. To me the only preferable combo is the line Aurieges + separate phono.
> 
> For affordable cartridges I really like the Ortofon 2M in whatever price you desire....
> ...


 
 Question, is the Aurieges-L better than Leben's phono stage?


----------



## parbaked

destroysall said:


> Question, is the Aurieges-L better than Leben's phono stage?


 
 Aurieges L has no phono stage. "L" = line stage only.
  
 In general, Shindo products are considered to be 'better' than Leben but YMMV...


----------



## s4s4s4




----------



## s4s4s4

let's try this again,


----------



## bbophead

Wowzers!  You got the real dang hi-end stuff.  Bet that's a real good sounding system.
  
 How do you choose which one to play?


----------



## morserotonin

s4s4s4 said:


> let's try this again,


 
  
 Wow nice turntables  I especially like the Thorens!  Is that a Helios arm on it?  Never mind I guess it is a chrome SME.


----------



## s4s4s4

SME IV


----------



## Silent One

s4s4s4 said:


> let's try this again,


 
  
 Nicely presented, s4s4s4. I really like the angle of the tone-arm in this pix; could watch for hours... listening to music of course!


----------



## parbaked




----------



## Silent One

Your pix arrived just in time for my snacks, parbaked


----------



## daerron

I have a Thorens TD 2001 with TP90 tonearm and Audio Technica AT-OC7 cartridge.


----------



## bbophead

daerron said:


> I have a Thorens TD 2001 with TP90 tonearm and Audio Technica AT-OC7 cartridge.


 
 Very handsome!


----------



## Silent One

Looks like a fantastic night in SA!
  
 My listening sessions are often reserved in advance. And going in I've a pretty good idea if I'll be spending time with the TT, Music Server or a little of both. That said, even when it's Digital's turn, the right photograph in this thread can upset the Peach cart. 
  
 And who doesn't like 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




a Southern Peach Cobblah?!


----------



## longbowbbs

I got to listen to the Funk LSD (Little Super Deck) with a Sumiko Blue Point Special EVO III last week. It was on the same top line all ARC system that had been using an SME 20/3 with a Lyra Atlas when I was listening to the Vandersteen Model 7's. Remarkable how this deck and cartridge held up to a combo 9 times their price. They were run through an ARC LS-1 rather than the Ref 2SE Phono and still sounded great with several of the same album tracks for demoing.
  
 The Funk designer was the brains behind the Pink Triangle table. Long vinyl history. Anyone else heard this table yet?
  
 http://www.thefunkfirm.co.uk/turntables/LIttle_Super_Deck.html


----------



## bbophead

silent one said:


> Looks like a fantastic night in SA!
> 
> My listening sessions are often reserved in advance. And going in I've a pretty good idea if I'll be spending time with the TT, Music Server or a little of both. That said, even when it's Digital's turn, the right photograph in this thread can upset the Peach cart.
> 
> ...


 
 Are Blueberry Buckle for that matter?


----------



## Silent One

bbophead said:


> Are Blueberry Buckle for that matter?


 
 Or 'Winter Cobblah'... bring on the homemade French Vanilla Ice cream/Custard! Either way, reared back from all the holiday snacks and fixin's, watching an LP go round-and-round is about the best one could do sometimes.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And it will force one to get up!


----------



## ]eep

Icecream in winter? Peaches in winter? You should try my stewed pear with raisins and ginger. Bet you never tried that before!  You need a special sort of pears for that, very hard and rather sour and stew it (not cook!) for about 8 hours, with a lot of sugar. Now there is something to eat to help you appreciate winter. This is a perfect picture of what it should look like.

I havent seen or heard the Funk little super deck, but like all Funky stuff I bet it sounds great. 

Now I need to get back on soldering my new little phono amp...


----------



## brunk

]eep said:


> Icecream in winter? Peaches in winter? You should try my stewed pear with raisins and ginger. Bet you never tried that before!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That sounds like a unique winter dessert! I'm sure it tastes great. So, what's cookin' on the bench? Have you ever built or heard the Cornet2 Phono amp? I built it not too long ago and enjoy it very much, but I'm curious how it compares to others


----------



## ]eep

No, I'm not versed enough for making my own. I'm just modifying a Chinese 2x12AX7 tube phono. Yhe Yaqin MS22B. It cost me €150 incl shipping (about $200), but it will sound fabulous once modified. I have done one before (sold it already) and I know what holds it back: caps and bad earthing layout. I have found some nice Sangamo and Vitamin Q caps and milspec coax to help it on its way. And of course some nice old stock tubes. 

I plan to use it for the Decca.


----------



## brunk

]eep said:


> No, I'm not versed enough for making my own. I'm just modifying a Chinese 2x12AX7 tube phono. Yhe Yaqin MS22B. It cost me €150 incl shipping (about $200), but it will sound fabulous once modified. I have done one before (sold it already) and I know what holds it back: caps and bad earthing layout. I have found some nice Sangamo and Vitamin Q caps and milspec coax to help it on its way. And of course some nice old stock tubes.
> 
> I plan to use it for the Decca.


 
 It just so happens I still have my Yaqin MS-12b  if you wouldn't mind sharing some notes I would really appreciate it. I have always wanted to tinker with it, namely bypassing the potentiometer, upgrade caps, and maybe some chokes or something. I currently have NOS Mullards throughout and I am loving the vivid midrange coming out of it


----------



## Silent One

]eep said:


> *Icecream in winter? Peaches in winter?* You should try my stewed pear with raisins and ginger. Bet you never tried that before!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 





 It's quite possible you may have overlooked my location. Thanks for providing a pix of your pears delight - though not my kind of dessert. Thought I was going to enjoy vinyl tonight but got called out by a friend. Later this evening at dinner without a doubt!


----------



## daerron

It is summer holidays here right now. Peaches and ice cream sounds good... My wife makes some seriously good poached pears with cinnamon! Temperatures just hitting a modest 27C here so currently we have some lovely music listening weather.
  
 It has been an usually chilly and rainy summer here thus far and we had a surprising number of hail storms this season, with hail larger than golf balls. They go straight through some roof tiles and car windows! My peaceful music listening got interrupted 2 nights ago when lightning hit the electricity substation just around the corner and plunged the entire neighbourhood into darkness for around 5 hours. You have to make the good evenings count!


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Icecream in winter? Peaches in winter? You should try my stewed pear with raisins and ginger. Bet you never tried that before!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Well, Russians tend to eat ice cream in the winter -aand drink hot tea in the summer. Come to think of it, kinda makes sense in equalizing the temperature ...
  
 Funk Firm's tables are a good equivalent of your >peaches< - they are the closest to no mass approach to turntable - and they LITERALLY punch many times above their weight.
 Try 170 gram ( ! ) turntable PLATTER ( not mat, NO mats on Funk Firm's tables ) - depending on the LP one puts on, that LP may or may not exceed the weight of the  platter. Catch is in the platter material, which has many more times the damping properties of more conventional platter materials - acrylic included. BTW - it was the same guy that came up with acrylics for the TT platter - then under the Pink Triangle banner.
  
http://www.thefunkfirm.co.uk/turntables/page21/page21.html


----------



## ]eep

I think Funk Firm makes very clever and smart looking turntables (and arms!). I really like the Saffire II, unfortunately I can't afford it at this moment. Ow, I see one for sale on Ebay now for GBP2500. Still can't afford it. :'(
I'm not going to post a picture of something that I don't own, that would pollute the thread. But it sure is a work of art. 

Hopefully tonight I'm going to test the little Yaqin tube phono. I can post pictures (but again; wrong thread for that). 
-----
@ brunk:
The Yaqin MS12b and 22b are not really similar (the MS22 is the first stage of the 12B) but I can give some pointers. I think the MS12B is a dreadfull oddball design that is an ergonomic FAIL. If you just use it as a phono-preamplifier instead of a preamp lose the volume potmeter and feed the input with a shielded wire directly into pin 2 or 7 of the first tube, earth and shielding on pin 5 (ground, or the closest accessible groundpoint or the wire that goes to the centre of the socket). And the output likewise after/on the output cap and try to find the nearest ground. 
Change the caps in the signalpath (those blue blocks from Pilkor, 6 big ones and I guess 2 smaller ones next to the 12AX7 tubes) to some nice PiO's. The output need not be 600V. Not even close. Coupling caps are somewhat in the 200V area. Measure while starting up. Some Russian K40Y-9 will do fine. Or better Sprague, Westcap, Sangamo or the likes. 

 Here is the scheme for the MS12B. And, oh wonder :rolleyes: , it has the same stupid error as the 12B. The basic amplification for MM is done in the upper left with one 12AX7 (two halves) followed by a V-dumper transistor. After that point there is a split in the signal: one goes to the output [RIAA fed to the input switch and potmeter] via a big (=expensive) 1uF cap and the other to the RIAA correction feedback loop (all the way top of drawing left) via... another same big expensive 1uF cap. :rolleyes: If you take the signal for the loop _after_ the output cap the result is the same and you save one cap.  

You can use the same point to feed directly into pin 2 of the 12AU7. After that one there is another 1uF cap.

The small blue cap next to the 12AX7 tubesocket is the coupling 103/AC275V (0.1uF) cap between the two tubehalves. Change this too.

Take out the junk cables with those little white plugs. All you get is corrosion in time and hum from using long PCB traces for ground. Use millspec shielded wire and pick groundpoints closest to the source. 

Don't blow all your money on overprices Telefunken tubes. Those 3 caps do way more for your sound for way less money. 

The scheme of the first part of the MS12B with the 12AX7 is exactly the same as the MS22B and all you need for MM. The rest is for extra amplification as pre-amp or for medium output MC's, but without the impedance correction.

That was another hour of my time. Hope you can use it. 
_I shouldn't be telling but selling..._


----------



## arcorob

My Concept and Phonomena II Phono stage
  
 since I don't have permission to post pictures (newbie restriction) I can only post a link
  
 https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/382531_675717442443721_441975138_n.jpg


----------



## parbaked

Welcome and nice picture!
 You'll be able to post soon...


----------



## arcorob

Thanks...looks like a great site ...love the detail people put into things !!!
  
 BTW...The turntable actually sits on a wall mounted butcher block suspended about 2 inches over the cabinet...lol
  
 My wife gave up our formal dining room for my MUSIC ROOM/Man Cave..LOL..she even painted it for me..
  
 https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/972033_676115089070623_1124883411_n.jpg


----------



## parbaked

arcorob said:


> ...love the detail people put into things !!!
> 
> https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/972033_676115089070623_1124883411_n.jpg


 
 Details...I don't see a place for your beverage!


----------



## arcorob

Too funny !!! Dang...Now I have to redesign the room...


----------



## arcorob

BTW..Just so you don't think I would dare to have a TV in the MUSIC room (lol) ..Peel back the curtain...That space is for a home made vacuum type record cleaning machine...and the Vinyl of course
  
 https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/1000709_676643089017823_1286148535_n.jpg


----------



## Anavel0

arcorob said:


> Too funny !!! Dang...Now I have to redesign the room...


I use a spare wooden bookshelf speaker stand as a small table. 

Works out really well, cheap, and looks good.


----------



## parbaked

anavel0 said:


> I use a spare wooden bookshelf speaker stand as a small table.
> 
> Works out really well, cheap, and looks good.


 
 If you set it up correctly you can isolate your favorite beverage from in-room vibrations and resonances!


----------



## Anavel0

parbaked said:


> If you set it up correctly you can isolate your favorite beverage from in-room vibrations and resonances!


 For all of those people that like it stirred not shaken.


----------



## parbaked




----------



## ]eep

What a beautiful room. If only the cabinet... kind of iconoclastic granny style in an otherwise modern cottagestyle room (yeah I know, can't keep my mouth shut). The cabinet is a well used piece of furniture though. Quite full. 

Just askin'.. is you English?


----------



## arcorob

No, I am a vintage American...LOL
  
 Actually the cabinet was a LONG search for EXACTLY what you see. I wanted the shelf space for equipment behind glass, the open space was originally for a Pioneer Reel To Reel (didn't need it and built the RCM) ...so the long search. I did not want a press board put together and it had to have the right layout. Found it in Craigslist - Hand built by the owner who was a cabinet maker. Weighs over 400lbs unloaded. So there is NO vibration..lol
  
 The room just works..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  My wife not only painted the room but hand painted the archways (yes, all free hand)
  
 since this is a turntable thread, you can't imagine how many tables have been in this room in a 2 year span...some samples
  
 A Dual 721 that I custom made a base
 https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/482339_630177986997667_475528476_n.jpg
  
 This is a self built turntable - made the whole thing from scratch using parts, DD motor, strobe and an AT1100 arm - 6gram mass and fluid damped
 https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/46211_553246134690853_1211106754_n.jpg


----------



## parbaked

Wow, both those TTs are gorgeous. They seem so much more 'special' than the Clearaudio, but I am sure you have good reasons to change.
 Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Silent One

Welcome arcorob!


----------



## Silent One

parbaked said:


>


 
  
 These kind of shots tend to send me to the listening room! Well, later
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 in the night but...
  
 Tonight, we're doin' it with the diminutive Sansui G-22000, Music Hall MMF-7.1 and HiFiMAN HE-6 via speaker taps. Next hour, may front the Sansui Pre-Amp for the Sinhonia's out of curiosity and adventure.
  
  
 Add.:  I tend to listen in low light. By candle light. Or low light by candle light, but severely need to illuminate my TT without lighting up the room. Something functional yet stylish, What are some of you using?


----------



## MohawkUS

silent one said:


> These kind of shots tend to send me to the listening room! Well, later:rolleyes: in the night but...
> 
> Tonight, we're doin' it with the diminutive Sansui G-22000, Music Hall MMF-7.1 and HiFiMAN HE-6 via speaker taps. Next hour, may front the Sansui Pre-Amp for the Sinhonia's out of curiosity and adventure.
> 
> ...




I tend to keep a flashlight by my table.


----------



## Silent One

mohawkus said:


> I tend to keep a flashlight by my table.


 
  
 I'm currently using a tubular troubleshooting light. Sooo, very un-chic. Not wanting to pollute the AC any further, will review some portable batt options.


----------



## arcorob

silent one said:


> These kind of shots tend to send me to the listening room! Well, later
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Very nice...I know..sometimes that mood just kicks in..during the day my wife likes me to stick to old school rock...but at night I play a little James Taylor, Gordon Lightfoot...lighter stuff...I save the Pink Floyd for day time...LOL
  
 Just received the Johnny Cash Greatest hit re-master 180gr Friday so have a little JC to hear tonight...
  
 BTW..How do you like your Music Hall ? What cart are you running ?


----------



## arcorob

I thought about starting a different thread, but I am new here and don't want to be a crazy thread hog...and this is the perfect thread..I love tables !!! I love when people post their pictures, old, simple, high end, space age...it doesn't matter ...they all have their beauty.
  
 My specialty is I like to find older dirty semi working tables and turn them into something special. sort of like refurbing the island of misfit toys...LOL
  
 So enjoy some pictures of tables that were given new life....I tend to make wood bases too ...I just like wood !!!
  
 Take a plastic looking Sansui, fix it mechanically and give it character

  

  
 I took a beat up AR/XA , restored it and gave it a technics S arm
 BEFORE

 AFTER

  

  
 First version of DIY table with cocobolo


----------



## Silent One

arcorob said:


> Very nice...I know..sometimes that mood just kicks in..during the day my wife likes me to stick to old school rock...but at night I play a little James Taylor, Gordon Lightfoot...lighter stuff...I save the Pink Floyd for day time...LOL
> 
> Just received the Johnny Cash Greatest hit re-master 180gr Friday so have a little JC to hear tonight...
> 
> BTW..How do you like your Music Hall ? What cart are you running ?


 
  
 Standard Goldring Eroica MC High Output. I think it sounds decent but looking forward to replacing the cart in 2014. Maybe an Ortofon 2M Black MM...


----------



## Oregonian

silent one said:


> These kind of shots tend to send me to the listening room! Well, later:rolleyes: in the night but...
> 
> Tonight, we're doin' it with the diminutive Sansui G-22000, Music Hall MMF-7.1 and HiFiMAN HE-6 via speaker taps. Next hour, may front the Sansui Pre-Amp for the Sinhonia's out of curiosity and adventure.
> 
> ...




I too prefer low light so put a tiny stick on light up inside the lid of my Yamaha TT to illuminate when needed. It gives off just enough light to see what I need and lends ambiance as well.


----------



## bbophead

arcorob said:


> I thought about starting a different thread, but I am new here and don't want to be a crazy thread hog...and this is the perfect thread..I love tables !!! I love when people post their pictures, old, simple, high end, space age...it doesn't matter ...they all have their beauty.
> 
> My specialty is I like to find older dirty semi working tables and turn them into something special. sort of like refurbing the island of misfit toys...LOL
> 
> So enjoy some pictures of tables that were given new life....I tend to make wood bases too ...I just like wood !!!


 
 Very Impressive!  Great jobs.


----------



## calipilot227

arcorob said:


>


 
  
 WOW! I've been toying with the idea of building a new plinth for my Pioneer PL-518, but just transplanting the motor unit and mounting a Rega arm instead. I had wondered whether or not it could be done. It looks like you've done something similar here.


----------



## arcorob

EASILY Done on the Pioneer. really the imagination is the limit. Many of my bases are just borders really that the original fits in. Gives it a solid feel.
  
 Here is a Pioneer PL-600 that received a paint job, a wood base and a plaque. I even re-used the PIONEER logo from the front plastic and put it on the wood base 
  
 BEFORE
  

  
  
  
 AFTER


  
  
 This is a BASE in progress - note the black line ? I masked off the area with blue tape 1/4" - spray painted the black line, remove tape and stain the whole thing...they are just boxes cut with 45's


----------



## calipilot227

That is EXCELLENT! You need to start a turntable modding thread


----------



## Silent One

Wood has a very pleasing quality about inside the home...


----------



## analogsurviver

arcorob said:


> No, I am a vintage American...LOL
> 
> Actually the cabinet was a LONG search for EXACTLY what you see. I wanted the shelf space for equipment behind glass, the open space was originally for a Pioneer Reel To Reel (didn't need it and built the RCM) ...so the long search. I did not want a press board put together and it had to have the right layout. Found it in Craigslist - Hand built by the owner who was a cabinet maker. Weighs over 400lbs unloaded. So there is NO vibration..lol
> 
> ...


 
 I find the DD thingie with the AT1100 VERY nice. AT low mass arms with the fluid damping ONLY IN HORIZONTAL DIRECTION are the second best solution for the high compliance and relatively high mass cartridges, a description that unfortunately describes most of the AT's own better MM carts. The first are arms that can be precisely adjusted for resonant frequency/damping, either mechanical or electronics assisted. Fluid damping in vertical plane does almost zero in reducing the amplitude of the peak at resonance, but deadens the sound to the point of killing any life out of it. AT designers realized that and made a whole series of tonearms around this idea - that is why they are still highly sought after and fetching good coin when changing hands - to this very day. They can be seen as the pinnacle of all things Audio Technica ever produced.
  
 And it is a special delight to see one in such great enviroment - congrats !


----------



## arcorob

analogsurviver said:


> I find the DD thingie with the AT1100 VERY nice. AT low mass arms with the fluid damping ONLY IN HORIZONTAL DIRECTION are the second best solution for the high compliance and relatively high mass cartridges, a description that unfortunately describes most of the AT's own better MM carts. The first are arms that can be precisely adjusted for resonant frequency/damping, either mechanical or electronics assisted. Fluid damping in vertical plane does almost zero in reducing the amplitude of the peak at resonance, but deadens the sound to the point of killing any life out of it. AT designers realized that and made a whole series of tonearms around this idea - that is why they are still highly sought after and fetching good coin when changing hands - to this very day. They can be seen as the pinnacle of all things Audio Technica ever produced.
> 
> And it is a special delight to see one in such great enviroment - congrats !


 

 Thank you...I loved that arm..and that table...I did find it a good home. I also rewired the arm using Litz wire (fun project). The motor, platter and strobe/pitch control are all form a DUAL EDS 500 motor. That thing was rock steady. Literally set the pitch and forget it. No oscillation. I had another Dual (the 721) with the EDS 1000 Hall motor and though it was SUPPOSEDLY better, it drifted, no matter what. very little but still...drift.
  
 http://www.vinylengine.com/library/audio-technica/at-1100.shtml


----------



## arcorob

calipilot227 said:


> That is EXCELLENT! You need to start a turntable modding thread


 

 Cali,
  
 I would BUT...I am new and I don't think the site leans that way. I have already nestled myself in to all your welcoming good graces. LOL
  
 I don't want to start something that seems a bit off topic...Though I love talking about tubes and turntables. Now I foray into the world of digital...and what better place than here ?
  
 BTW...as to modding...I am a piker compared to some of the beautiful tables I have seen guys build...works of art...


----------



## EH-Yeon

Totally new to turntable. Any tips to check when purchasing a turntable? Saw a few working turn table left on street and garage sales recently. Tempted to get one to add in collection.


----------



## arcorob

Hmm...left on the street and working seem mutually exclusive BUT sometimes people throw out gems. Sort of like the local goodwill that just tosses TT's in a dumpster !!! Ayyyyyyyy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Check your local craigslist. But first, determine what style you like. A good way to do that is go to ebay and put in searches like
  
 Pioneer Turntable
 Sansui Turntable
 JVC Turntable
 Technics Turntable
 Dual turntable
  
 etc....
  
 This will give you an idea. There are direct drive and belt drive.
  
 You can also check craigslist in your area and feel free to ask me about them.
  
 The BEST resource for turntable info is vinylengine.com  The have the manuals (user and repair ) for almost Every table. FREE. You just join and go to library. Then when you click a brand, it lists all their tables. Click a table and it tells you about it.
  
 for example
 http://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/721.shtml
  
  
 Hope that helps


----------



## EH-Yeon

arcorob said:


> Hmm...left on the street and working seem mutually exclusive BUT sometimes people throw out gems. Sort of like the local goodwill that just tosses TT's in a dumpster !!! Ayyyyyyyy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 oh thanks for the info. Yea, that was a waste. If i had a car I would just drive them back the time i saw that. Time to do some homework on this. Merry xmas!!!


----------



## analogsurviver

calipilot227 said:


> That is EXCELLENT! You need to start a turntable modding thread


 
 I do not find it a particularly good idea.
  
 Why? because it IS black hole - not just rabbit hole  - for time and money. 
  
 Turntable is unfortunately , despite being 100 or so years old idea, still not correctly understood. It is the most precise and sensitive contraption one can actually have in the home - bar none. Stylus is capable of retrieving detail ( as verified by measurements on spectrum analyzer ) that CAN NOT be seen on the scanning electron microscope shots of the portion of the groove where this low level signal is recorded. That should give you an idea that structuraL resonances in turntable materials, dwarfing the inherent capabilities of stylus by many orders of magnitude, are the real culprit that prevents analog vinyl replay to actually achieve greatness it is inherently capable of.
  
 Resonance control/prevention - no matter how you might want to call it - is being only partially adressed in actiual turntable designs - even the very best and most costlier.
 The reason is simple - cost. Casting a metal platter is incomparably cheaper than machining the same out of solid block of metal, not to mention making a carefully designed and executed platter out of combination of materials that allow for the lowest resonance signature possible. The first can be mass produced, the later is next to impossible to produce without having to involve manual labour - and that is $$$.
  
 Plinth, although it can contribute to the performance of the TT overall, is merely a band aid if the platter is a singing merry go-along-forever affair - which unfortunately describes most of actual turntables in use today. As a matter of fact, ANYTHING that is not absolutely essential for the basic operation, such as plinths, covers,  levers, dials, displays, etc, etc - can be and is detrimental to the sound. That is why there are finally some stripped to the bone designs dispensing with all the unnecessetties of record replay emerging - Kuzma Stabi S (knowing the TRUE origin/designer of this design makes me sick whenever I see it... - but it was commercially made available by Kuzma),   Funk Firm's next-to-nothing designs ( shamelessly copied by the latest/costliest Rega, built with better materials/tolerances, at punishing price ) - and I may have left a few others that fit into this less-is-more category. The opposite approach is that of EMT, where the whole design is so precisely executed that there is tightening torque specified for any screw that has an influence on resonance control - the big EMT DD TT is among the best sounding decks out there, despite being a pro design where reliability is the priority #1.
  
 How critical materials in turntables are is best described in Lencoheaven forum - there is any variation/combination that still is within the reach of even VERY high heeled enthusiast. Any idea how much might a theorethically desirable plinth out of - carbon fibre/boron/diamond ( in increasing order of desirability ) - COST ? Carbon fibre is perhaps still within the reach of the most experienced/well-to-do DIYers - other two are wishful thinking even for the largest manufacturers.


----------



## arcorob

Hmm..well..there are turntables ...and then there are turntables...and quality of sound is relative to the needs (and budget) of the listener. I know people with systems where the tables cost 20K ..and others whose tables cost a few hundred or less. Each are equally happy.
  
 What you just described has been the downfall of audiophiles who reach that pinnacle and STOP enjoying their music. why ? Because they traded "forgiving" for "resolving" instead of balancing both. Their systems are so precise that any spec of dust, any lack of mastering excellence renders the music unlistenable. It is the extremes in those systems...extremely beautiful or extremely bad but no in between. And the majority of music would fall in that middle category.
  
 I don't see turntables or vinyl a black hole because ultimately its about the music. Is one listening for enjoyment or is one listening to precision ? When I turn on vinyl, I don't hear pops, click or skips, nor do I have rumble or flutter. I make sure of that via equipment, the quality of my vinyl, my cleaning machine, etc. And if a stray piece of dust lands on my vinyl and it is heard, it is all part of the experience.
  
 But even in the digital world, if we look at lack of precision as a barrier to the music, then every bad mastering would send us in a tailspin and there are many poorly mastered digital files. This is where forgiving comes in and finding that happy system balance of forgiving and resolving,
  
 Just my humble opinion...


----------



## calipilot227

I'm of a similar opinion. I will take forgiving but pleasing sound over hyper-accurate and analytical. What good is your rig if you can only listen to a select few well-mastered recordings because everything else sounds horrible? I mean, I love MFSL, but some of my favorite music is only available on *gasp* NON-AUDIOPHILE LABELS!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Not to mention the garage sale/thrift store/flea market/dollar bin finds.
  
 And with that, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everyone!


----------



## analogsurviver

calipilot227 said:


> I'm of a similar opinion. I will take forgiving but pleasing sound over hyper-accurate and analytical. What good is your rig if you can only listen to a select few well-mastered recordings because everything else sounds horrible? I mean, I love MFSL, but some of my favorite music is only available on *gasp* NON-AUDIOPHILE LABELS!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


arcorob said:


> Hmm..well..there are turntables ...and then there are turntables...and quality of sound is relative to the needs (and budget) of the listener. I know people with systems where the tables cost 20K ..and others whose tables cost a few hundred or less. Each are equally happy.
> 
> What you just described has been the downfall of audiophiles who reach that pinnacle and STOP enjoying their music. why ? Because they traded "forgiving" for "resolving" instead of balancing both. Their systems are so precise that any spec of dust, any lack of mastering excellence renders the music unlistenable. It is the extremes in those systems...extremely beautiful or extremely bad but no in between. And the majority of music would fall in that middle category.
> 
> ...


 
 I did not STOP enjoying my music - be it from whatever source I still find acceptable, analog turntable included. But I certainly agree with the point you made.
  
 Trouble is, it is getting ever harder - after realizing where the most thin vinyl analog bottleneck has been hiding all these years. And it was the snowball at the top of the hill...
 If done properly and reasonably, it should be possible to design from scratch a turntable for say a grand (minus the cartridge) - that would leave VERY little - or no -  ground to the six figures behemoths. 
  
 I agree it is ultimately about the music. But that music, unless heard live (my preference), has to be somehow recorded and then played back. And this process consists of many many processes linked in a chain, the end of which we finally do get to hear in our homes. That is where one must decide on the degree of balance between gorgiving and resolving - some music that I like is horribly bad on hig resolution system, some music I was not originally too interested in proved to be so well recorded that it gets more playtime as it would have otherwise.
  
 Throughout the history of the recording, each recording carries a stamp put on it by the equipment it was recorded on AND skill and care of those people who have operated that equipment. What was acceptable any given number of decade(s) ago, might and may get noticed as flaw today. Ask yourself - how many records and tracks on those records you have with HUM recorded - after taking any measure to reduce hum to close to zero in your system? The list could go on and on - but it was possible to record as near perfect recording 50 years ago - try Harry Belafonte's At Carnegie Hall. 
  
 To illustrate the point of importance of the quality of the recording itself, two examples, separated by say one generation in time, father and son :
  
  

  

  
 Although this is about exactly one year overdue, the way I would wish Merry Cristmas and Happy Holidays - provided I could play or sing ( and look...):


----------



## Destroysall

eh-yeon said:


> Totally new to turntable. Any tips to check when purchasing a turntable? Saw a few working turn table left on street and garage sales recently. Tempted to get one to add in collection.


 

 I'd check out U-Turn Audio.. it's received decent reviews and won't break the bank.


----------



## analogsurviver

destroysall said:


> I'd check out U-Turn Audio.. it's received decent reviews and won't break the bank.


 
 +1.


----------



## arcorob

Analogsurvivor,
  
 I certainly did not mean to imply you stopped enjoying the music. Not at all. What I was answering basically was you pointed out the pitfalls of turntables to the n'th degree which really applies to most equipment. But everyone has a budget and a level of acceptance.
  
 I hear what you are saying and agree, it should be easier to address the items you listed, The Orbit has been mentioned here and it has achieved quite a lot for a budget turntable, SO if that much could be achieved for a $200 table, it seems logical one could build a $1000 table that addresses all you point out. But unless you have a granite plinth, magnetic air spindle bearing, offboard motor and anti-resonant arm...well, these guys have been making tables for years in all price ranges. And they obviously have bee acceptable to the greatest majority of people. For instance, though not my personal fave, the Techinics Sl1200MKII was the largest selling table of all time.
  
 Anyway, people can and will enjoy the resurgence of vinyl regardless of budget...
  
 Merry Christmas  to you maybe we'll get together and build my granite based table !!!
  
 Rob


----------



## parbaked

Yes...the long awaited, much anticipated AS1000 (Analog Surviver $1000 turntable) now featuring a custom by-Rob granite base....
 Where do I send my deposit?
 Merry Christmas All!


----------



## Silent One

parbaked said:


> Yes...the long awaited, much anticipated AS1000 (Analog Surviver $1000 turntable) now featuring a custom by-Rob granite base....
> Where do I send my deposit?
> Merry Christmas All!


 
 Group Buy?


----------



## Anavel0

parbaked said:


> Yes...the long awaited, much anticipated AS1000 (Analog Surviver $1000 turntable) now featuring a custom by-Rob granite base....
> Where do I send my deposit?
> Merry Christmas All!


For $1000, with a granite base, that's the same price as a VPI Nomad. Where do I sign up for the group buy, haha.


----------



## arcorob

anavel0 said:


> For $1000, with a granite base, that's the same price as a VPI Nomad. Where do I sign up for the group buy, haha.


 

 Okay...here is your basic design...LOL...It really is not that hard (having built tables myself but not with outboard or granite).
  
 About $150 to $200 for the granite. $200 for fabrication cuts and drilled. $50 for outboard motor. $125 for platter. $300 arm. $125 cabling .


----------



## bbophead

Kickstarter?


----------



## arcorob

bbophead said:


> Kickstarter?


 

 No thanks ! I have had enough self business in my life..
  
 I am quite happy with the tables I have/have had/will have...LOL
  
 I just bought a "Charlie Brown Christmas" turntable - Pioneer PL-600 which is a VERY sweet turntable...but had been left in a garage to gather dust.  I am going to wrap Linus's Christmas blanket around it and it will shine like the tree at Rockefeller Center...LOL
  
 Metaphor anyone ?


----------



## bbophead

Metatable?


----------



## parbaked

arcorob said:


> Metaphor anyone ?


 
 Like a baby in a manger...


----------



## arcorob

We better get back on topic before I get kicked out and become the shortest lived member of head-fi (hey, there is a thread !!! lol )
  
 Nice Dual 721
  

  
 And a Dual 604 which became a donor table for my DIY table build


----------



## analogsurviver

arcorob said:


> Analogsurvivor,
> 
> I certainly did not mean to imply you stopped enjoying the music. Not at all. What I was answering basically was you pointed out the pitfalls of turntables to the n'th degree which really applies to most equipment. But everyone has a budget and a level of acceptance.
> 
> ...


 
 I agree with the above. 
  
 But SL 1200/1210 is unfortunately the classic case of a really BAD good turntable. It certainly does have potential, as amply demonstrated by several modifications,
 at various levels, that ultimately can lead to a stellar performing device. In principle, nothing wrong with it, inherently well conceived design, marred by implementation/execution  to ease the  production ultimately leading to a low cost reliable product. It takes mighty $$$ to correct its flaws. But in a stock form, it just does not sound right - and as always in cases of bad turntable, it gets even more unacceptable the higher quality cartridge one mounts on it. Better cart will simply pick up errors of the deck better, leading to very nervous and distorted  reproduction - which is the exact opposite of the expectations when changing the cart for a better one...
  
 There is one CRUCIAL thing for which audiophilles have to thank the SL1200/1210 - it, almost single handedly, saw us trough the tough era for vinyl, say from 1985 to 2005, when only DJ demand was just high enough to keep vinyl pressing plants etc above water - BIG THANKS from us audiophiles is long overdue. It might have simply ended it all if the old warhorse SL1200/1210 was not so reliable, even when abused DJ style.
  
 BIG THANKS to the "abusers", DJs, is also more than deserved.
  
 There are Technics tables that have even more potential than SL 1200/1210 ( 1200/1210 is just the most numerous table on the planet, due to its immense suitability for DJing, but nowhere best in audiophile sense of what Technics used to build ) - but for a new $1000  table, good direct drive is way out of reach and reverting to the yo-yo belt drive will be inescapable. There is a very slim, almost impossible chance a rim drive design incorporating the necessary design criteria could be made - have not been investigating it yet, but it seems extremely unlikely. 
  
 Direct drive, when done right, has so much going for it that I find anything else a compromise at best. But it can not be made for a grand - not in 201X .
  
 All above said and done - a decent well taken care of vintage table or new Rega/Project/U-Turn entry level table with a decent cartridge on a gvood recorded LP in a decent system will always show CD its place. It is just the fact that vinyl replay can be made sounding MUCH better still - and 150+kg of stone/chrome/acrylics/whatever costing six figures is not the only way to achieve it.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Kickstarter?


 
 It is the possibility - I am seriously considering it. 
  
 I have several Kickstarters in my mind at the present - all have to do with the sound of music, trough the cans perched on our heads - LOL! 
  
 Turntable is just one of the stones missing in that mosaic to be made better/perfect.


----------



## arcorob

Yes, it is doable. But your target market would be small, fabrication would best be done by someone who works with granite (or at least subbed out with the cut and drill specs)
  
 Based on platter size and offboard motor distance you would calculate the motor pulley diameter and RPM's needed to achieve the desired 33.335 speed. So with a 12 inch platter (30.5cm) and a motor rotational speed of static 300rpm you need a pull that is 3.389 diameter
 See here
 http://gadi.agric.za/software/renting/pulley_calc.php
  
 You then buy the other parts in quantity.
 Platter  - http://www.groovetracer.com/acrylic%20_platter_groovetracer.htm
 In bulk you probably save 30%
  
 Arm
 Hmm..The Rega RB303 at $500 would be "okay" but I bet we could do better
  
 Assembly is easy.
  
 Shipping would be horrible as it would most likely weigh in at 50lbs +
  
 Then there has to be a markup to make it worth it.
  
 So now you are a $1600 table competing in the Clearaudio, Rega, Prioject, VPI space
  
 Go for it !!! I'll give you the specs, you can have the business but I want honorable mention as the name
  
 The D'Arco Granite Elite Turntable.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Did this help?


----------



## arcorob

BTW...this is the arm I would PREFER go on the table


----------



## analogsurviver

arcorob said:


> Yes, it is doable. But your target market would be small, fabrication would best be done by someone who works with granite (or at least subbed out with the cut and drill specs)
> 
> Based on platter size and offboard motor distance you would calculate the motor pulley diameter and RPM's needed to achieve the desired 33.335 speed. So with a 12 inch platter (30.5cm) and a motor rotational speed of static 300rpm you need a pull that is 3.389 diameter
> See here
> ...


 
 I am in the meantime in a "get stones for the mosaic in place" phase. And those "stones" DO DIFFER from more conventional solutions, such as yours proposal.
 Absolutely nothing wrong with it and I do appreciate it - but let's put it that way:
  
 If you want to build a car that would by default, even on a very bad day, have to leave current top Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Koenigs, ETCs in the dust - at about one tenth of their cost - you simply have to think differently. MUCH differently. 
  
 I toy/play ( in scientific jargon - doing R&D ) with partial solutions incorporated into existing designes - LOTS of them. How to mate gerbil with a kangaroo while still maintaining its "sex appeal" ( not to mention doing it way below price that normally would go with such performance ) was never an easy task - and this one is certainly no different. 
  
 The TT I have in mind will not exceed mass of about 10 kg + shipping carton/crate - bringing shipping weight at or below 15 kg. Even that shipped say from my country to the USA would run at least 200 $ ...


----------



## ]eep

> Yes, it is doable. But your target market would be small, fabrication would best be done by someone who works with granite



You can make a turntable like that, but you can not introduce it at a $1000 retail price (without personal financial risk/loss). 
For a piece of granite you can just go to any good stonemason, he can cut any shape or form with modern equipment. They can make the most intricate headstones and ornaments so a tiny slab with a few holes will be no challenge. Just hand him a dwg and a slab of 2 ftsq won't cost you $200. I asked for a similar base for my extra arm and that was <$75. 

But what you are forgetting: if you want to sell something commercially you need to hold a considerable margin (like 100%) for extra costs like shipping, storing, guarantee (stone can break and chip), office and personnel costs, assembly costs, PR, advertising, taxes, fees what have you. In short, if you would want to sell a TT for $1000 you should be able to manufacture it for half that, $500. So if you could make it DIY for $1000 and sell it for $1000 you would do all that work for just making someone else happy, not for earning your own bread. So even trowing on a $300 arm would make the whole project rather taxing... If you want to go commercial you need a business plan. Especially if you want to wrap on the door of a bank (which I advise against, but still).
------
I am listening to my newly modded Yaqin MS22b phonoamp now. I am quite pleased with it. It sounds very fluid and musical, slightly warm. My Jolida JD9 sounds tighter and more neutral, cd like (it has 3 opamps in a row). I am not sure about the deepest bass though.  Bass is there allright. I am playing Dead Can Dance - Anastasis now and boy, is there bass! Enough to waken the dead (pun intended, anastasis ). I don't know yet if this soundcharacter is maybe a little too much of a good thing in combination with the Koetsu Urushi and the Classic 16.2 300B amplifier which are both very full bodied. But with the bleak Decca this should be a bonus. 
I did notice a slight hum when playing music, but it's definitely not the Yaqin. It's dead quiet. Really happy with that.  

Now the Jolida JD9 s back on the operating table. Still not done with that little bugger. I need to pull hard on the reigns of that fullblood. Playing from the DAC I have the volume at 10 (full open), with the Yaqin (only 1 ECC83 per side) at 4-5 and with the JD9 only 3! It is quite loud. And it uses 3 opamps in a row, 2 10K resistors in between somewhere (why amplify and then attenuate?) and, again, 2 ECC83 as a buffer. I mean, come on. Ok, I don't need the extra amplification for MC since I use a tranny but I still see it as overkill. I am going to see if I can take out one or maybe two opamps. Leaving just one opamp and the riaa feedback-loop. I wish I would understand the schematic better. I need some help with that. I see a feedbackloop at every opamp, so maybe I'm mistaken about taking one opamp out. But I see the the dipswitch for MM/MC in the same feedback loop (after which opamp there are 2 10k R in parallel). I think I can skip that opamp incl the 5k, plus one whopping 4.7uF couplingcap. That should improve sound considerably. Leaving out things you don't need is always a good thing.
Edit: well, i've been studying up on opamps and that little feedbackloop is required for the opamp, so I think I can leave one out. I hope I don't ruin anything. Just for safety I'll put the original opamps in.


----------



## Redcarmoose

analogsurviver said:


> _*Direct drive, when done right, has so much going for it that I find anything else a compromise at best. But it can not be made for a grand - not in 201X *_.


 
 I loved my 1200s direct drive operating style.
  
  I missed Denons return to direct for $2500 back in 2010. Amazing to bring a design directly into the future from the 1970s!
  

  
  
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Denon-Anniversary-Edition-DP-A100-Turntable/dp/B0042S5UHY/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
  

 These are on Ebay now!
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Denon-DP-500M-Direct-Drive-Turntable-Analogue-Record-Player-FREE-SHIPPING-/331092534278?pt=US_Record_Players_Home_Turntables&hash=item4d16a72406


----------



## ]eep

There is a lot that can be said about _nostalgia _as well in the clinical as in the general sense of the word. In this it is also linked to melancholy. It _can refer to a general interest in the past, their personalities, and events, especially the "good old days" from one's earlier life. ... nostalgia is more prevalent during times of great upheaval._ But can also be deceptive: _... nostalgia ... in some forms can become a defense mechanism by which people avoid the historical facts._ Personally I prefer to make new good memories in the here and now instead of dwelling on old ones. 

I appreciate the look of that black Denon. But I think that the company that just killed the production of the great little DL110+160 is merely hoping to cash in on the feeling of nostalgia than making a bold new step forward with new and exiting technology. I wouldn't be surprised if it was made in China. Dust off an old design and put some nice varnish on and you are good to go. In saying this I strongly feel that there is a strong underapreciation of Chinese engineering and craftsmanship, just like Japanese in the '60s-'70s.

Just to think you could get a really good turntable for that money. But without a new DL160 cartridge...

------
I am just listening to my newly modded phonoamp. I was a bit anxious because I took out 33% of the opamps an redid the scheme (RIAA) and replaced the caps in between. Since I have no formal schooling in electronics i wasn't really shure if what I did would be ok. I did introduce some hum but that is because I forgot that there is a seperationwall on the lid of the inner shielding. And the new bigger caps are in the way. So I can't close it. Hence some hum. But it sounds incredibly clear. Like, again, several veils are lifted. Without even breaking all the new Spragues and Russian caps. It's really like WOW! :basshead:


----------



## Redcarmoose

]eep said:


> There is a lot that can be said about _nostalgia _as well in the clinical as in the general sense of the word. In this it is also linked to melancholy. It _can refer to a general interest in the past, their personalities, and events, especially the "good old days" from one's earlier life. ... nostalgia is more prevalent during times of great upheaval._ But can also be deceptive: _... nostalgia ... in some forms can become a defense mechanism by which people avoid the historical facts._ Personally I prefer to make new good memories in the here and now instead of dwelling on old ones.
> 
> I appreciate the look of that black Denon. But I think that the company that just killed the production of the great little DL110+160 is merely hoping to cash in on the feeling of nostalgia than making a bold new step forward with new and exiting technology. I wouldn't be surprised if it was made in China. Dust off an old design and put some nice varnish on and you are good to go. In saying this I strongly feel that there is a strong underapreciation of Chinese engineering and craftsmanship, just like Japanese in the '60s-'70s.
> 
> ...




Yes, they are made in China.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> There is a lot that can be said about _nostalgia _as well in the clinical as in the general sense of the word. In this it is also linked to melancholy. It _can refer to a general interest in the past, their personalities, and events, especially the "good old days" from one's earlier life. ... nostalgia is more prevalent during times of great upheaval._ But can also be deceptive: _... nostalgia ... in some forms can become a defense mechanism by which people avoid the historical facts._ Personally I prefer to make new good memories in the here and now instead of dwelling on old ones.
> 
> I appreciate the look of that black Denon. But I think that the company that just killed the production of the great little DL110+160 is merely hoping to cash in on the feeling of nostalgia than making a bold new step forward with new and exiting technology. I wouldn't be surprised if it was made in China. Dust off an old design and put some nice varnish on and you are good to go. In saying this I strongly feel that there is a strong underapreciation of Chinese engineering and craftsmanship, just like Japanese in the '60s-'70s.
> 
> Just to think you could get a really good turntable for that money. But without a new DL160 cartridge...  I am just listening to my newly modded phonoamp. I was a bit anxious because I took out 33% of the opamps an redid the scheme (RIAA) and replaced the caps in between. Since I have no formal schooling in electronics i wasn't really shure if what I did would be ok. I did introduce some hum but that is because I forgot that there is a seperationwall on the lid of the inner shielding. And the new bigger caps are in the way. So I can't close it. Hence some hum. But it sounds incredibly clear. Like, again, several veils are lifted. Without even breaking all the new Spragues and Russian caps. It's really like WOW!


 
 VERY good post - bull's eye, in my view. 
  
 That SL 1200 look alike/knock off says it all regarding present Denon - instead of reaching on in their own archives/designs from the past and improving upon them, they went for copycat activities, simply because of hope for quick sell/buck - due to the similarity to the SL1200 that is THE turntable in eyes of the most of the mass buying public.
  
 Killing the production of DL110/160 is like shooting yourself in BOTH of your legs - one side with AK47, another with M16...- it is true that Denon changed ownership several times since DL110/160 was introduced. Not so long ago, an obviously "milk teeth" representative for Denon, claimed a certain ( admittedly extremely rare Denon product ) was NEVER distributed in Germany; sure, I can well imagine that represantive was not born for decade(s) after said product was available for a brief year or so,
 but claiming it was NEVER available only goes to show merchants are only interested in current production/sales - and nothing else.
  
 Grim truth is that in almost all departments of technological activities at the time, Chinese are in the first echelons - if not actually the very spearhead of development. 
 They are FAR from being a mere copycats producing at lower price; true, there is LOTS that can be described this way, but there are genuine advances produced by their universities and swiftly applied in the production. Quite some of them have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of - on the contrary, it can be genuinely source of pride to their creators. Underestimating China as prime technological resource would prove very costly in the future to those foolish enough to underestimate it.


----------



## Redcarmoose

analogsurviver said:


> VERY good post - bull's eye, in my view.
> 
> That SL 1200 look alike/knock off says it all regarding present Denon - instead of reaching on in their own archives/designs from the past and improving upon them, they went for copycat activities, simply because of hope for quick sell/buck - due to the similarity to the SL1200 that is THE turntable in eyes of the most of the mass buying public.
> 
> ...






Amazingly there are one or two high end direct drive turntables coming out for 2013/2014. I'm no expert but have had many tables over the years. I have a belt drive now but from a design and common sense stand point direct drive seems like a process just waiting to be perfected nowadays. 

I'll look it up but there are a number of companies perfecting direct drive in the present day. These products also come with a steap price tag. Many of the direct drive tables even in the 1970s were expensive by 1970s standards also.


Ok, so if they can get the motor vibration reduced, there are really so many benefits of direct drive. No belts, no slipping, nothing to worry about. They get to speed in a half second and stop on a dime. Normally the good ones are bullet proof and last. For me anyway it is super exciting to see direct drive being furthered in this day and age.

Not much press out on these direct Denons from China. Still it shows that there is still a romance out there for current direct drive. Who knows, as there could be a day 15 years from now where direct drive is standard fare for high end audiophile vinyl playback?


----------



## arcorob

redcarmoose said:


> I loved my 1200s direct drive operating style.
> 
> I missed Denons return to direct for $2500 back in 2010. Amazing to bring a design directly into the future from the 1970s!
> 
> ...


 

 The thing that bothers me is $2500 for a direct drive. Maybe because of experience with legacy tables, I know the value you can get for 1/4 of that cost. Direct drive or belt (mostly DD), from the heyday of when tables where made to perform because of competition in a very large market.
  
 I love my CA Concept and purchased this for a reason, but I have also loved many $400 and under DD tables that are phenomenal And $600 or less...wow !
  
 We have a smaller market, less production, so the high end tables are great (but expensive) and the sub $1000 tables, uggg.
  
 If anyone here is ever looking at a vintage table, many of us here can give advice on the selection and what to expect. You are not STUCK with Rega, Pro-Ject or Music Hall if you are on a budget.


----------



## Oregonian

If you are fortunate enough to live somewhere there is a vintage audio equipment shop, like we have here in Portland, OR, you can get a good used TT for cheap. I got my dd Yamaha P520 for $169 with a new cart. Works great and is simple.


----------



## calipilot227

arcorob said:


> You are not STUCK with Rega, Pro-Ject or Music Hall if you are on a budget.


 
  
 Hey, I love being stuck with my Rega! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But yes, there are great bargains to be had in the vintage TT scene.


----------



## bbophead

calipilot227 said:


> arcorob said:
> 
> 
> > You are not STUCK with Rega, Pro-Ject or Music Hall if you are on a budget.
> ...


 
 Plus one!


----------



## arcorob

calipilot227 said:


> Hey, I love being stuck with my Rega!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I'm sorry...I was not intending to disparage those...just ..that's all that's out there in a affordable category....a few others but only a handful.
  
 In the vintage days, you could literally choose from dozens and dozens in similar price ranges...
  
 enjoy your Rega !!!
  
 Rob


----------



## calipilot227

No apology needed, just a tongue-in-cheek joke on my part


----------



## bbophead

calipilot227 said:


> No apology needed, just a tongue-in-cheek joke on my part


 
 Yeah, ha ha.


----------



## Redcarmoose

*Brinkmann Bardo: $7990 without tonearm*
 The Bardo is a direct-drive, suspensionless turntable with an eight-pole, speed-controlled motor. It has a vinyl platter mat, a polished granite base, and the superbly designed and machined spindle and bearing used in Brinkmann's more expensive Oasis, La Grange, and Balance models. Fit’n’finish were outstanding, and setup was quick and simple. Though it lacked the rich, deep bass of Brinkmann's more expensive "tables, the Bardo "produced superbly well-organized sound with clean, sharp attacks, reasonably strong sustain, and pronounced decay, all against a jet-black backdrop," said Mikey. Optional precision-ground crystal platter mat and screw-down record clamp add $1500; optional Balance power supply adds $1490. (Vol.34 No.5
  

  
  
 Just out!


----------



## Redcarmoose

http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/1107gp
  
    This debuted in 1997


----------



## Redcarmoose

I didn't even know VPI made a direct drive?
  
 http://www.musicdirect.com/p-157642-vpi-classic-direct-drive-turntable.aspx?source=igodigital&


----------



## arcorob

redcarmoose said:


> I didn't even know VPI made a direct drive?
> 
> http://www.musicdirect.com/p-157642-vpi-classic-direct-drive-turntable.aspx?source=igodigital&


 

 Yeah...It also features their 3D printer arm...But at $29,999 It should also drive me to work...LOL...Geeze...


----------



## fullnine

redcarmoose said:


> I didn't even know VPI made a direct drive?
> 
> http://www.musicdirect.com/p-157642-vpi-classic-direct-drive-turntable.aspx?source=igodigital&


 
 It was just released a few months ago...


----------



## Angelbelow

Don't know if this counts but a buddy of mine just gave me this... was just collecting dust in his garage.
  

  
 The player works, tried out Vivaldi four seasons on it. There is a headphone jack in the front but way unbalanced, also a lot of static in the background. Will look into upgrading the cartridge.


----------



## arcorob

For $600 you could have something like this or similar
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/JVC-QL-Y7-QUALITY-VINTAGE-TURNTABLE-EXCELLENT-CONDITION-/151183600451?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item23333eab43


----------



## fullnine

Here's a pic of my pride 'n' joy.  VPI Aries II and VPI SDS with an Eastern Electric phono stage.  I'm vinyl junkie and have listened to it almost exclusively  for the past 10 years, other than some iPod use when away from home.  I'm about to test the waters with Hi-Rez digital though…waiting on delivery of an Astell & Kern AK120…  …I'm pretty stoked!


----------



## arcorob

fullnine said:


> Here's a pic of my pride 'n' joy.  VPI Aries II and VPI SDS with an Eastern Electric phono stage.  I'm vinyl junkie and have listened to it almost exclusively  for the past 10 years, other than some iPod use when away from home.  I'm about to test the waters with Hi-Rez digital though…waiting on delivery of an Astell & Kern AK120…  …I'm pretty stoked!


 
 Two words...simply gorgeous!
 or
 Turntable Porn
  
 LOL


----------



## ]eep

Talking about entry level... I don't think this is exactly cheap but pretty close to what we discussed. Darned good looking, well executed and well thought out. 

This must be pretty much the exact opposite of the [insert curseword] Technics 1210: no mumbo jumbo, wistles or bells. No fake nostalgia. Sleek design with technology where it counts, well engineered and fabricated with pride by skilled workers that earn a decent living. No cutting corners except, maybe, by the standard ubiquitous RB202 arm which is pretty unbeatable at the price.

FYI the price over here in EU is lower that the VPI Traveller.


----------



## cowsandcorn

Sansui SR-838. My first turntable. Sounds pretty good to me and I sure like the way it looks. Some absolute beauties in this thread


----------



## arcorob

]eep said:


> Talking about entry level... I don't think this is exactly cheap but pretty close to what we discussed. Darned good looking, well executed and well thought out.
> 
> This must be pretty much the exact opposite of the [insert curseword] Technics 1210: no mumbo jumbo, wistles or bells. No fake nostalgia. Sleek design with technology where it counts, well engineered and fabricated with pride by skilled workers that earn a decent living. No cutting corners except, maybe, by the standard ubiquitous RB202 arm which is pretty unbeatable at the price.


 
 Another WOW...sweet...2K gets you into audiophile without being in the VPI space aka pricing


----------



## arcorob

cowsandcorn said:


> Sansui SR-838. My first turntable. Sounds pretty good to me and I sure like the way it looks. Some absolute beauties in this thread


 

 Yes...the SR828 and SR929 (know as the black beauties)...I almost bought one (the 929) for approx. $800 but the seller made me nervous on a speed issue and there is just no way to get the parts for these to fix (the chip)


----------



## arcorob

Wow..a friend just showed me a picture of my Clearaudio Concept table with the new wood trim (instead of my brushed aluminum) .. I like it !


----------



## Redcarmoose

Some unbelievably nice member turntables on this page. They look freshly dusted too!


----------



## analogsurviver

redcarmoose said:


> http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/1107gp
> 
> This debuted in 1997


 
*This *has to be the all time ( or at least current ) production Worst Case Of Missed Opportunity in turntables. Although most of the design is sound, it is ludicrously underestimating what is should be doing in the first place - and that is to extract music from the record. It is claimed to be the world's most accurate speed turntable - I lost track of counting zeroes between the decimal point and first meaningful other than zero digit in its wow and flutter specs - YET what on earth can this precision achieved trough DSP mean if the table ignors that the records themselves ARE NOT PERFECT - off-center pressings are, like it or not, not an exception but the rule. It is super easy to get 0.1% or anything to about 0.5% wow figure because of off-center pressings - does it in real life matter if the platter turns with 0.0...X % ? Not in the slightest.
  
 They also put forward the reason why they eschew the vacuum hold down system - again, in order to make turntable *per se *with better specs. 
http://www.grandprixaudio.com/prod_monaco_turntable.php
  
 It is the same as saying: we build the fastest racing car - because we eliminated suspension (it adds weight..), vipers on the windshield ( it creates drag, reduces top speed by a fraction of a mph...), etc, etc - BUT our car is fastest only in clear weather, on perfectly flat road, bumps not exceeding 0.0....X inch - or else we will have to search for another driver, as the car will get airborne (and...) at anything exceeding 100-150 mph... 
 And they claim much of the expertise put into this design came from the motorsport racing !
  
 This is a 5 figure device - and at its present price, adding yet another couple of grands to it to really make it meaningfully useful and carrying its superiority beyond its brochure and into actual performance WITH REAL WORLD records should not prove too difficult.  What is better - TT with a spec almost no one can confirm and is meaningless in real world - or slightly worse spec'd table that, trough its design, achieves at least one order of magnitude better performance with REAL records ?
 DSP, as any other tool/technique/means - is only as good as its implementation.


----------



## Redcarmoose

2X


----------



## Redcarmoose

3x


----------



## Redcarmoose

analogsurviver said:


> *This *has to be the all time ( or at least current ) production Worst Case Of Missed Opportunity in turntables. Although most of the design is sound, it is ludicrously underestimating what is should be doing in the first place - and that is to extract music from the record. It is claimed to be the world's most accurate speed turntable - I lost track of counting zeroes between the decimal point and first meaningful other than zero digit in its wow and flutter specs - YET what on earth can this precision achieved trough DSP mean if the table ignors that the records themselves ARE NOT PERFECT - off-center pressings are, like it or not, not an exception but the rule. It is super easy to get 0.1% or anything to about 0.5% wow figure because of off-center pressings - does it in real life matter if the platter turns with 0.0...X % ? Not in the slightest.
> 
> They also put forward the reason why they eschew the vacuum hold down system - again, in order to make turntable *per se *with better specs.
> http://www.grandprixaudio.com/prod_monaco_turntable.php
> ...






That is the kind of stuff that makes this hobby what it is. I sold motor homes for 20 years, so they were both a truck and a house, but because of their cost and fact that they were a total non needed luxury, folks would spent years figuring out what they wanted. Learning about different areas of potential over- build is all part of the sizzle. And yes, so much is excess ideas that do nothing but sound good, in theory.lol



Ok so this table is a mini high performance race car that you can also play your records on. Still though ask any BMW owner if all the technology is needed daily and they will try to prove it to you.

Being that this thing does look like a car I can only imagine. So this whole area of turntables is full of cool ideas and possible lost causes. The fact that things do make a difference at times and that the market is always competitive basicly means that much of the new VPI direct drive wil be avalible sometime soon as a cheaper model, kind of like a direct drive VPI Scout with a 3D printed arm. Lol

So ya, they guy with the 100k to spend always gets the monoatomic gold bearings with oil friction dampening thermally adjusted in an alternate reality. His 200 pound counter weight reflects any movement due to the earths rotation. So he thinks that all this stuff sounds better for the ultimate placebo effect, plus he gets to brag to his friends about it. In marketing it also starts to trump the plain janes in the price bracket below it.


----------



## longbowbbs

redcarmoose said:


> analogsurviver said:
> 
> 
> > *This *has to be the all time ( or at least current ) production Worst Case Of Missed Opportunity in turntables. Although most of the design is sound, it is ludicrously underestimating what is should be doing in the first place - and that is to extract music from the record. It is claimed to be the world's most accurate speed turntable - I lost track of counting zeroes between the decimal point and first meaningful other than zero digit in its wow and flutter specs - YET what on earth can this precision achieved trough DSP mean if the table ignors that the records themselves ARE NOT PERFECT - off-center pressings are, like it or not, not an exception but the rule. It is super easy to get 0.1% or anything to about 0.5% wow figure because of off-center pressings - does it in real life matter if the platter turns with 0.0...X % ? Not in the slightest.
> ...


 
 The Emperor would like to emphatically express that he is, in fact, NOT naked!


----------



## analogsurviver

longbowbbs said:


> The Emperor would like to emphatically express that he is, in fact, NOT naked!


 
 I did not want my post to appear as bashing - because in many ways, Grand Prix Monaco IS A GOOD DESIGN.  The designer, provided he/she had any idea what real world problems of turntables are, would, given his/hers expertise in DSP and manufacturing of carbon fibre pieces, actually be capable of creating "end of the (technologically meaningfull) game" in turntables. Currently, its price is about 20 K - add a couple of grands for revised design that would incorporate the features required to get the best resullts from normal records - and you have a clear winner. There are 6 figures TTs that are technologically far less advanced than GPM - and in comparison, GPM _revised X.0 _would look as a - bargain ...!
  
 Irony is the fact that most of the mumbo djumbo required to play real world vinyl records well would not be required at all - IF the records were made with good enough precision. But records are what they are - and making of a TT that improves one iota in speed stability or rumble compared to the previous "Emperor" makes next to no sense to me - real turntable ( RECORD PLAYER - as a whole, not turntable as motor unit only ) performances are much more than by its motor governed by the cartridge and arm playing REAL records: http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=1281
  
 Only AFTER arm/cartridge combination behaves as it should, start benefits of the better motor to be appearent and audible. In plain English - a well matched/adjusted arm/cart on the basic Rega/Project CAN in fact outperform in speed stability/rumble Grand Prix Monaco fitted with a less than optimal combination of arm/cart.


----------



## longbowbbs

I was more commenting on some of the astounding hyperbole that gets thrown about by manufacturers. I suppose they are trying to be heard above the fray, but sometimes I just shake my head at the claims....


----------



## parbaked

arcorob said:


> Wow..a friend just showed me a picture of my Clearaudio Concept table with the new wood trim (instead of my brushed aluminum) .. I like it !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Looks nice. It would be a hard choice between that and the more industrial stock base.
 However, I still like your refurbs more! 
 I predict we will see images of your custom veneered CA within 3-4 months...


----------



## parbaked

oregonian said:


> If you are fortunate enough to live somewhere there is a vintage audio equipment shop, like we have here in Portland, OR, you can get a good used TT for cheap. I got my dd Yamaha P520 for $169 with a new cart. Works great and is simple.


 
 Without pics it never happened 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 ...I'm just sayin' this is a pic thread!


----------



## analogsurviver

longbowbbs said:


> I was more commenting on some of the astounding hyperbole that gets thrown about by manufacturers. I suppose they are trying to be heard above the fray, but sometimes I just shake my head at the claims....


 
 Grand Prix Monaco TT claims are all well founded ( despite looking outlandish at the first glance)  - but it could have been much, much more - and better. It has the "right suff" ingredients, it is priced high enough to allow "above average treatment". 
  
 In today's market, if you are not "chickensquaking" often and loud enough, you do not exist.


----------



## ]eep

Isn't that just the whole problem with specs in audio? Very often those manufacturer specs mean next to nothing if you; 
- cannot repeat them at home 
- do not know the specimen variety (no lp is centered the same etc)
- do not know *how to interpret* given specs
- do not know how they affect sound

As an extra example there is the story on a consumer info program on tv lately about fuelconsumtion. In the brochures manufacturers claim 1:30 (km/l) or more. But IRL you're lucky to get just half that. Measurements are done with all accessories taken out of the car (incl rearviewmirrors), al seams taped off, grille ditto. A car totally stripped to the bone with tires about to explode (with no grip) etc etc. They say the EU and UN are developing a new methodology for fair figures. As if anything the EU(SSR) or the UN produces is fair... more like warfair or wellfare...


----------



## cowsandcorn

arcorob said:


> Yes...the SR828 and SR929 (know as the black beauties)...I almost bought one (the 929) for approx. $800 but the seller made me nervous on a speed issue and there is just no way to get the parts for these to fix (the chip)


 
 Yes the rarity is an issue haha. The strobe is out on mine. I paper strobed it and it is fine but now I have no idea how to get a new one. Saw a brand new in box SR838 on ebay awhile back, some guy bought one while stationed in Japan and then never even used it. Insanity!


----------



## ]eep

Oh yeah. oh yeah! 

I got me my Decca up and running. I mounted it on an oildamped unipivot T988 arm from Opera Consonance (from China, they also make the Well Tempered arms as you can probably tell). 

I made a very nice cable but I think I need a shielded cable for the Decca. I have quite a lot of hum. Sonically the Decca is ROCKING on the Yaqin MS22B! The mistake I made last time is that I had the weight at 2g which is not enough. Now I have 3.2g and it traces just fine. But the arm is a b14ch to get the azimuth right. 

Here's the cable:


----------



## arcorob

cowsandcorn said:


> Yes the rarity is an issue haha. The strobe is out on mine. I paper strobed it and it is fine but now I have no idea how to get a new one. Saw a brand new in box SR838 on ebay awhile back, some guy bought one while stationed in Japan and then never even used it. Insanity!


 

 You know the bulbs on these can be replaced pretty easy HOWEVER; I would be afraid to open such a fine and WORKING table (though I will open any table..lol)
  
 If you go to vinylengine, you can probably find the service manual with the part number, find out what bulb works..


----------



## arcorob

]eep said:


> Oh yeah. oh yeah!
> 
> I got me my Decca up and running. I mounted it on an oildamped unipivot T988 arm from Opera Consonance (from China, they also make the Well Tempered arms as you can probably tell).
> 
> ...


 

 Beautiful ! But...3.2 grams...That can't be right...can you show more pictures, give more info ? That is a really low mass arm and depending on the Decca should be about 1.6gr VTF..talk to me...lol


----------



## ]eep

Well, I tried the Decca b4 and used 2g then and it soundded horrible. I thought I made a mistake in the cable but it turns out it was mistracking. I never heard it that bad. So it kind of cought me off guard. Then I read the decca needed more than 3 grams. So I just set it and it works and tracks just fine. It is always better to have the F to high than to low. Because tracking errors damage the groove more than higher pressure.


----------



## analogsurviver

arcorob said:


> Beautiful ! But...3.2 grams...That can't be right...can you show more pictures, give more info ? That is a really low mass arm and depending on the Decca should be about 1.6gr VTF..talk to me...lol


 
 There can be "slight" discrepancies between rated and actual VTF, at which the cartridge actually performs as it should. That "slight" can be in reality veeeery steeeeeeeecthed - and Deccas can be like that. 1.6 gram VTF with Decca is asking for trouble - at least in most examples I have worked with, this proved to be to low VTF for anything like competent tracking ability.
  
 Decca requires a well damped arm - silicone of one description or another. It has DIFFERENT compliances in the lateral and vertical direction - vertical is much more stiffer than horizontal one. Exact figures vary from sample to sample, not just among various models. It can sound GREAT in a light but well damped arm.
  
 With Decca, you are pretty much stuck with the serial # you have - regardless of what the "official model" specs say. When its numerous idiosyncrasies are satisfied, it can sing like no other cartridge. But definitely not for the faint at heart, let alone a beginner.


----------



## ]eep

> it can sing like no other cartridge. But definitely not for the faint at heart, let alone a beginner.



I was aware of that and I knew what I was getting in to. But since I'm neither of those I saw it as a challenge. I saw one on Ebay in 'down under' for a modest price. And the arm 2ndH over here. I thought the arm would be pretty ideal. Moreover: I can easily change armwands! The Consonance arms are not that expensive. As you might know I know a lot about Chinese stuff. So I had to have this one. I like their tables too (and amps) but Opera/Consonance is (one of) China's top brand and never cheap. 
The arm is light and somewhat flexible, has sand dampening in the wand and oil damping under the pivot. You can pour in anything you like in the cup. I just poored in normal bikechainoil. I'll go and see what else I can get sometime. 

It is very much like the Well Tempered arm but the bearing consists of a small ring with ball-bearings on one ball. I think the ability to change wands easily is a cool feature. 

Well Tempered (love that cart)

Consonance T988 (love that cart too, and best of all: got it. But I'm afraid to use it on this arm. It looks so delicate)


Getting back to a near perfect sub $1000 TT: I just saw the Consonance LP6.1 Turntable w/ T988 Oil Damping Tonearm (yes that one ^) for... $850 at Grant Fidelity (Alberta Canada). I'm not a fan (of GF) but that is a *really* nice price! Without the cart of course. That alone is more than the TT!
I think it's beautiful. To #311 with those bad ugly stupid SL1200's and zombie Denon DD's ...


----------



## GrindingThud

Ooh, I want:
http://www.linn.co.uk/all-products/turntables/limited-edition-sondek-lp12#details


----------



## ]eep

I will settle for just the bottle of Highland Park :regular_smile :. I *don't * want to pay for the rest. I lost count at 16.000 euro adding all the subparts of 1 TT. :eek: Nor do I want to go back to Linn. (boy am I glad my dealer advised me to buy a tubeamp instead of the LP12 as an upgrade). It's fast becoming the most unimaginative company in high end audio. I mean: the distinguishing feature is an oak plinth...:rolleyes: It sure looks 40y old, just like my grandparents furniture, also oak. 

edit: found the price. On wikipedia off all places... no dealer dares mention the price I guess. "priced at £25,000" That's >$40,000 FYI.


----------



## GrindingThud

Too rich for me....I'll take the little engraved glass though....it's pretty cool. 



]eep said:


> I will settle for just the bottle of Highland Park :regular_smile :. I *don't * want to pay for the rest. I lost count at 16.000 euro adding all the subparts of 1 TT. :eek: Nor do I want to go back to Linn. (boy am I glad my dealer advised me to buy a tubeamp instead of the LP12 as an upgrade). It's fast becoming the most unimaginative company in high end audio. I mean: the distinguishing feature is an oak plinth...:rolleyes: It sure looks 40y old, just like my grandparents furniture, also oak.
> 
> edit: found the price. On wikipedia off all places... no dealer dares mention the price I guess. "priced at £25,000" That's >$40,000 FYI.


----------



## arcorob

I have a whole separate thread on this but it was suggested I post this here....
  
 This is a Pioneer PL-600 I restored from trash worthy to a modern looking beauty. She now runs and sounds flawless, full auto, and not bad to look at either..Please note...ShE IS RED...Some of the pictures give it a pink caste...That's my camera phone NOT the table. I post a picture from my wife's phone so you can see the real color..LOL
  



  
 This is how bad she started out when I bought it for $40 bucks...LOL


----------



## longbowbbs

Great restore job arcorob! It looks great!


----------



## analogsurviver

longbowbbs said:


> Great restore job arcorob! It looks great!


 
 +1.


----------



## Delirious Lab

Just traded in the entry-level kit for an Ariston RD-11S.  Grace 747 tonearm, Shure M91ED cart.
  

  

  

  

  

  
 Beautiful, innit?


----------



## arcorob

Wow...beautiful is a tame word for it !!! Congratulations...


----------



## bbophead

Sure is nice.  Enjoy!


----------



## analogsurviver

delirious lab said:


> Just traded in the entry-level kit for an Ariston RD-11S.  Grace 747 tonearm, Shure M91ED cart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Beautiful it ain't.
  
 Just joking - RD-11S was a designed by Hamisch Robertson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linn_Products - there is very little difference from the early Linn Sondek LP12 - square section belt/motor pulley being the most notable. It has classic, timelessly good appearence.
  
 Grace G 747 ( a detacheable headshell version of more known/popular G 707 ) is, if and when working properly ( bearing adjustment(s)) , still a formidable tonearm. Despite being low mass, it can accomodate all but lowest compliance MCs - but its real forte is with high/highish/medium compliance MMs. It can be further improved by counterweight - but that is something to consider at a later stage.
  
 Shure 91, although nothing to write home about, is a decent performer at least.
  
 I guess this TT in its present form has all but removed issues with high pitched female voices in your operas 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
 I am still using main bearing and platter from the RD-11S - since late 70s. It is a durable piece of kit - take good care of it - and enjoy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Delirious Lab

analogsurviver said:


> Beautiful it ain't.
> 
> Just joking - RD-11S was a designed by Hamisch Robertson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linn_Products - there is very little difference from the early Linn Sondek LP12 - square section belt/motor pulley being the most notable. It has classic, timelessly good appearence.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I haven't tried it with Wagner yet.  Thanks for (apparently) confirming what I already suspected, that the Shure cart seems to be the weak point in this kit.
  
 Funny, my wife (who doesn't give a rat's ass about SQ) doesn't like the looks of this turntable.  And here I thought this one had a pretty high WAF...


----------



## ]eep

Now THAT is vintage.


----------



## Delirious Lab

]eep said:


> Now THAT is vintage.


 
 You can say that again.  The platter weighs a ton and the power switch is almost as hard to push as the main breaker in my house.  I read that the recommended thing, to help the motor live a long life, is to 1) give the platter a manual push before hitting the switch, and 2) leave it spinning bewteen sides.
  
 The suspended platter makes a very, very quiet TT.  I can rap my knuckles on the dust cover and not hear a thing from the speakers.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Now THAT is vintage.


 
 It is only 40 years YOUNG - and quality never becomes obsolete.


----------



## doctorcilantro

Very nice! Glad they moved to wood trim option. From what I have read these are solid tables. I considered an Ovation when getting back into vinyl. 
  
 Quote:


arcorob said:


> Wow..a friend just showed me a picture of my Clearaudio Concept table with the new wood trim (instead of my brushed aluminum) .. I like it !


----------



## ]eep

I normally spin the platter up with the last twist of the puck. It helps saving the belt from slipping. And I hardly ever turn the motor off. When I had a Linn I always kept the platter spinning while changing. This is quite easy with the felt mat.

I don't really know why this is (maybe because I keep modding my phonoamp to ever increasing heights), but I keep hearing hum from the motor/belt when I play. If I take off the belt and spin it by hand it's dead quiet. Now that I hear it I keep noticing it. I just can't unhear it. :mad:


----------



## penmarker

]eep said:


> I normally spin the platter up with the last twist of the puck. It helps saving the belt from slipping. And I hardly ever turn the motor off. When I had a Linn I always kept the platter spinning while changing. This is quite easy with the felt mat.
> 
> I don't really know why this is (maybe because I keep modding my phonoamp to ever increasing heights), but I keep hearing hum from the motor/belt when I play. If I take off the belt and spin it by hand it's dead quiet. Now that I hear it I keep noticing it. I just can't unhear it.


 

 It's probably your motor transferring vibration through the belt. Your transparent phonoamp might be revealing too much about the table? Bring it to someone with a better table and test it out.


----------



## Shaffer

The vibration from the motor has to go _somewhere_. Some designs mount the motor solidly to the chassis, allowing it to act as a vibration sink of sorts, while isolating the plinth from those elements. Others use an opposite approach, and then there's everything in between. If the plinth is isolated, for example, the motor vibrations will still (likely) reach the stylus. My current 'table is similar. So, how did I lessen the noise to the point where it's virtually inaudible? First step, drain the vibration from the motor housing. This can be done mechanically by using something as simple as a firmly attached spike (at the bottom of the housing) resting on a proper material. This, with returning of the suspension yielded excellent results (in my case). Dampening the motor housing, I found, to be difficult in terms of effectiveness. YMMV


----------



## arcorob

]eep said:


> I normally spin the platter up with the last twist of the puck. It helps saving the belt from slipping. And I hardly ever turn the motor off. When I had a Linn I always kept the platter spinning while changing. This is quite easy with the felt mat.
> 
> I don't really know why this is (maybe because I keep modding my phonoamp to ever increasing heights), but I keep hearing hum from the motor/belt when I play. If I take off the belt and spin it by hand it's dead quiet. Now that I hear it I keep noticing it. I just can't unhear it.


 

 Hi ,,maybe I missed something but you have the Performance table, a step-up up and then the Jolida. Are you hearing noise at the speakers or at the actual table itself?
  
  
 IF AT THE SPEAKERS...JD9 ..notorious for having noise unless modded...I think that is your issue. That is why I went with the Phonomena II phono stage. Dead quiet and no need for a step-up. Not sure why you are using a step up anyway. At .4mv, any MC phono stage will easily have enough gain.
  
 Now if you are running the step up to the MC section of the JD9 ..egads...No wonder you hear noise..way to much gain.
  
 SO tell me more...because you should hear nothing at the table..unless your ears is on the platter...


----------



## ]eep

Yes, I have the otherwise excellent Clearaudio Performance. With the Koetsu to an MC1000 tranny from Audio Innovations to the JD9 to a Classic 16.2 (300B) to Genesis VI. 

I realized I didn't say what I modded on the Jolida JD9. I just made a new very worthwhile mod. I have modded it like I haven't seen anyone do yet. It is very, very quiet now. It has oodles of gain on MC, but at the expense of SQ. Using the tranny into MM is much more quiet and fluid. I can also use the tranny into a (modded) Yaqin MS22b. Same problem.  
Now while I was writing I got an epiphany.... I had the grounding wire of the Koetsu on the Yaqin and the leads to the Jolida. Turnes out 'Ockhams Razor' proved itself once again. Or Murphy's Law. It was the most predictable and ubiquitous bad grounding. So check, check, check again. Funny how the groundloop only occurs when the needle is actually _on_ the record, that had me warped. 

Ahhhhh problem solved. 

So, to get back to the JD9 mods...
I made the 'low-out' a real low-out option that works much, much better and is a _real_ option. Under the motto 'less is more' it is now a tubeless 'low' option from the point straight behind the last opamp (without the 3.3uF output cap). I bypassed in total; the inputboard, 1 cap, 1 opamp, 1 big 5k R (substituted for a 680R +diff value filtercap), 1 cap, 1 big 10k R, 1 doubletriode and 1 outputcap. Now I can compare the new straight solid state tubeless low output with the regular tubed high output. And I can compare at the flick of a switch. 



Gain
 So what happened to the gain? Well, where I put my dac at volume 10 (full), I put the original JD9 on 3, after the mod 'minus 1 opamp' on 4 and the new straight output on 6. Leaving plenty of clean headroom. 

Sound 
 But to come to the point: how does it sound? Really dead-quiet. No more tubeswoosh and static trickle. It sounds tight, controlled, focused, spacious. I can't say much yet about stage-depth and width. I need some more quiet listening for that. But it has a blacker backdrop. The overall frequency-curve is the same but it sounds more controlled. Tubes are nice if you can make a nice short signal path, but I don't need them as a gimmick 'tubey sauce'/ harmonic distortion. 

The fun part is: I can now use the same output jacks as input jacks for my NOS dac so I can use the tubes outputstage as an extra gainstage. At the moment not at the same time (obviously). I'm still testing and since I don't want to drill some random extra holes I use the same jacks that were rather useless before.


----------



## arcorob

]eep said:


> Yes, I have the otherwise excellent Clearaudio Performance. With the Koetsu to an MC1000 tranny from Audio Innovations to the JD9 to a Classic 16.2 (300B) to Genesis VI.
> 
> I realized I didn't say what I modded on the Jolida JD9. I just made a new very worthwhile mod. I have modded it like I haven't seen anyone do yet. It is very, very quiet now. It has oodles of gain on MC, but at the expense of SQ. Using the tranny into MM is much more quiet and fluid. I can also use the tranny into a (modded) Yaqin MS22b. Same problem.
> Now while I was writing I got an epiphany.... I had the grounding wire of the Koetsu on the Yaqin and the leads to the Jolida. Turnes out 'Ockhams Razor' proved itself once again. Or Murphy's Law. It was the most predictable and ubiquitous bad grounding. So check, check, check again. Funny how the groundloop only occurs when the needle is actually _on_ the record, that had me warped.
> ...


 

 Ahhh..so
  
 1) You know what you were doing
 2) It was a ground loop (arrgggg...hate ground issues)
  
 I love tubes - I love tubes because no other simple interchangeable part can have such a dramatic impact on sound...without spending boatloads of money...BTW..NIce Sprague caps


----------



## analogsurviver

shaffer said:


> The vibration from the motor has to go _somewhere_. Some designs mount the motor solidly to the chassis, allowing it to act as a vibration sink of sorts, while isolating the plinth from those elements. Others use an opposite approach, and then there's everything in between. If the plinth is isolated, for example, the motor vibrations will still (likely) reach the stylus. My current 'table is similar. So, how did I lessen the noise to the point where it's virtually inaudible? First step, drain the vibration from the motor housing. This can be done mechanically by using something as simple as a firmly attached spike (at the bottom of the housing) resting on a proper material. This, with returning of the suspension yielded excellent results (in my case). Dampening the motor housing, I found, to be difficult in terms of effectiveness. YMMV


 
 Something like that.
  
 I changed to asinchronous DC servo controlled motor ( by now rare/extinct Papst, known from Harman Kardon and 2nd gen  Oracle tables ) ages ago because of mechanical noise introduced by 24 pole synchronous AC motor. The even more extreme use of dead quiet motors for belt drive TTs is now by Funk Firm - motors so quiet they can be mounted on the "subchassis" no longer requiring spring etc decoupling of subchassis from the main plinth where the motor in AR/Thorens/Ariston/Linn & similar designs is mounted - and is STILL audible.
  
 This problem returned with the renewed interest in Tesla NC470/NAD5120 table - synchronous motor belt driven sprung subchassis design. It exists in at least two versions, only the latest one I unfortunately did not manage to get yet having adjustable springs for the subchassis, allowing for sort of decent way to get the subchassis floating correctly while eliminating motor and structural feedback reasonably well. Otherwise, it is Linn Spring Doctors to the power of X ( woodoo, sorcery, fairies, witchcraft, ocult sciencies ) in order to get it performing as it should. Repeatable only when Hell freezes over.
  
 It also can be belt - I found that sometimes an old(er) (over)stretched belt is in the end better than new one in this rumble transmitting regard. 
  
 A properly done DD table would be quietly chuckling in a corner while getting amused by these belt drive stories...


----------



## arcorob

AS ..but what is audible ? If one were to measure it would probably show however; not really sure it would be audible per se..and considering the flaws in the medium itself, I am much more concerned with mastering and pressing than motor noise. What motor noise I have is inaudible to me (Clearaudio Concept) but bad pressings..YIKES ..too many. Got to try a Sheffield Labs direct to disk recently - Harry James...wow..was like being in a club...
  
 Now some tables DO exhibit way too much motor noise (I wont name them for fear of the wrath of the owners)...
  
 Sometimes we just have to ENJOY the music for what it is...LOL


----------



## analogsurviver

arcorob said:


> AS ..but what is audible ? If one were to measure it would probably show however; not really sure it would be audible per se..and considering the flaws in the medium itself, I am much more concerned with mastering and pressing than motor noise. What motor noise I have is inaudible to me (Clearaudio Concept) but bad pressings..YIKES ..too many. Got to try a Sheffield Labs direct to disk recently - Harry James...wow..was like being in a club...
> 
> Now some tables DO exhibit way too much motor noise (I wont name them for fear of the wrath of the owners)...
> 
> Sometimes we just have to ENJOY the music for what it is...LOL


 
 There is perhaps 0.00000........0XY % real world pressings that challenge the performance of better tables in rumble.
  
 Still, after you get to listen to really quiet ones, like Versa Dynamics tables ( air bearing platter, vacuum disk suction system, air bearing linear arm ) - it is still WOW. Unfortunately, it is hard to come by - even if 5 figure price is no obstacle. I had the luck/curse to know it inside out, it is a mind boggling unit, both in performance (when fully operational) and in maintenance ( the cost of normal wear & tear parts is MORE than average cost of a TT in this thread ... ). And no, I do not own it.
  
 What is audible? In principle - ANYTHING that should not have been there in the first place. Please wait till CH23 gets his DC powering of his Technics SL-7 up and running; it is "nothing" wrong with stock SL-7 - untill you hear all the schiit introduced by its internal power supply removed. I hope he will comment - in his own words, I do not want to hint at anything thus influencing his impressions. But it should be enlightening.
  
 I ALWAYS listen for music first sound second. The first piece of "audio gear" in my life, which put an indellible stamp on me in my forming years, say from age of 3 and up, was http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szarotka_(radioodbiornik) of my late grandmother. I forgot this thing did have the possibility of either AC or DC operation; as it was on practically whole day long, tuned to a Radio 3 with classical music, it was simply too expensive to run it on batteries - I re-learned of this AC/DC fact from the link above...
  
 But I will always remember great music discovered trough it, imperfect as it was/is, and will always be grateful to my grandma for having it around.


----------



## ]eep

update: as I listened again, I did still notice hum from the motor through the belt. Like I said: once you notice a certain noise or distortion it is impossible to 'unhear' it. I had the same thing with my old hunchback TV, once I heard the distortion from the resonating plastic housing I couldn stand to listen to that tv sound. It's strange how I never noticed it before, but I keep hearing the faint hum. That also means my phonoamp is really quiet. 
I have one trump in my sleeve though; with a ringmat (paper disc with cork rings) I hear even less hum. And I have a different belt. Maybe I'll go to the fishing-store to pick up some thin nylon fishing-line.

Edit: ok, now I've had it with this stupid problem. 2 sides ago I still had considerable hum. And now I'm sure it is the DC motor. It was not touching the plinth, but leaving the needle in the run-out groove I fiddled a bit with the motor unit. I pressid it down forcefully, held it in the air, slanted a little bit... hey! Hum gone. Straight again; hum. Twiddle, tweak... I replaced in on a wooden coaster with 4 pieces of foam as feet to decouple and raise it slightly. Just like I had it before I noticed the problem. And lo and behold, now it's really gone. Maybe the axle of the motor or some bearings aren't playfree.


----------



## bbophead

Showing Groovetracer Delrin platter on my RP6.  No mat required as label area is sunken in and VTA is the same as stock glass platter with mat.  Extra circumference for better flywheel effect and five ounces heavier than stock.  Not shown is the Reference sub-platter for RP6.  Groovetracer products mimic Swiss precision.  First impression, livelier presentation.  Perhaps more later.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Showing Groovetracer Delrin platter on my RP6.  No mat required as label area is sunken in and VTA is the same as stock glass platter with mat.  Extra circumference for better flywheel effect and five ounces heavier than stock.  Not shown is the Reference sub-platter for RP6.  Groovetracer products mimic Swiss precision.  First impression, livelier presentation.  Perhaps more later.


 
 I am eager to hear your impression AFTER the "new toy syndrome" subsides. These Grovetracers look mighty tempting, also for DIY building the table from scratch. If the tolerances from spec sheets are indeed reality, it must be awewsome - probably only a good video could do platter(s) of  this precision true justice. Best ones are "optically perfect" - you can not see whether it is turning - or it is stationery.
  
 On the wrong side of the Pond, in my case at least - add $hipping and cu$tom$ dutie$ for €urope and it is alogether different baŁgame than in the States...


----------



## bbophead

Thanks AS.  I don't do video but looking directly level with the platter, I see no movement when spinning.


----------



## KT66

LP12/Ekos2/Cirkus/Lingo2/Lyra Clavis Dc/Linto
 as you can Ernie is quite a big cat!


----------



## analogsurviver

kt66 said:


> LP12/Ekos2/Cirkus/Lingo2/Lyra Clavis Dc/Linto
> as you can Ernie is quite a big cat!


 
 The best *accessory" for the LP12 ever - without likelihood being assigned serial # to boot. As a cat lover, I might suggest getting a bit larger footprint table - at least a SOTA sized "cushion for Ernie" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .
  
 On a more serious note - how do you like the Clavis DC, particularly its tonal balance? Quite a few earlier Lyras went trough my hands, but I still feel the # 0001, the original Clavis, to be the most well mannered of them all. I found Clavis DC a bit too bright at times and less smooth than its predecessor. No experience with present generation of Lyras.
  
 And please give Ernie a nice pat on my behalf !


----------



## KT66

Ernie says thanks, I moved from a super smooth Troika and l love the extra detail from the DC, it has since had an ESC retip and it was bright at first , but now settled down.


----------



## bbophead

Just got the vinyl 2013 re-issue of the 1994 re-mix of the Bladerunner 
 soundtrack by Vangelis. For vinyl lovers who are also into sub-bass, 
 I can recommend this space music type recording. I'm not a big 
 Vangelis fan but this may be his best with no corny tunes to suffer 
 through.
  
 Edit:  Thanks to MorbidToaster for the suggestion.


----------



## brunk

I have the Redbook version of that album and enjoy it quite a bit. That might be my next modern vinyl purchase. Nice find!


----------



## Redcarmoose

bbophead said:


> Just got the vinyl 2013 re-issue of the 1994 re-mix of the Bladerunner
> 
> soundtrack by Vangelis. For vinyl lovers who are also into sub-bass,
> 
> ...


. 





Just saw the movie on blu ray for the first time. It holds up well and looks beautiful. From time to time they play the film in theaters.


----------



## brunk

redcarmoose said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah, this is one movie that I hope never gets a remake. It's a classic and should stay that way


----------



## Redcarmoose

brunk said:


> Yeah, this is one movie that I hope never gets a remake. It's a classic and should stay that way


. No one is brave or stupid enough to remake it.


----------



## doctorcilantro

gettin' there, been awhile since I have played with TT setup


----------



## podeschi




----------



## analogsurviver

doctorcilantro said:


> gettin' there, been awhile since I have played with TT setup


 
 Can I ask which tonearm is this? Looks like a Rega mod I was writing about half or so year ago and the name momentarily escapes me.


----------



## parbaked

doctorcilantro said:


> gettin' there, been awhile since I have played with TT setup
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 What a nice room and rig! I love the mess!
 Are those the new Zu Cubes? I have never seen them in situ...they look very useful!
 Cheers


----------



## brhfl

bbophead said:


> Just got the vinyl 2013 re-issue of the 1994 re-mix of the Bladerunner
> soundtrack by Vangelis. For vinyl lovers who are also into sub-bass,
> I can recommend this space music type recording. I'm not a big
> Vangelis fan but this may be his best with no corny tunes to suffer
> ...


 
  
 I've got that soundtrack in so many shapes and forms (including that heavy red slab you have), it's ridiculous. I agree that much of Vangelis's work is difficult to get through, and this is by far the best of his soundtracks. But don't discount his early work like _Spiral_, which leans heavily into a Berlin-school sort of sound. Good stuff!


----------



## kid vic

doctorcilantro said:


> gettin' there, been awhile since I have played with TT setup


 
 What speaker is that? Whats that awesome looking device under the turntable? Pics and description of your whole set up?


----------



## ]eep

That's an Audiomods arm. Beautiful and very good value. 

I like the setup too.


----------



## calipilot227

]eep said:


> That's an Audiomods arm. Beautiful and very good value.


 
 Based on a Rega RB1000, I believe.


----------



## analogsurviver

calipilot227 said:


> Based on a Rega RB1000, I believe.


 
 No, the name of the company did escape my memory, arm type not: RB 250 ( or to be precise - the one without spring VTF adjustment that in Rega creates trouble after trouble after trouble...). It ( Audiomods) has MUCH better bearings than the stock RB1000.
  
 http://www.audiomods.co.uk/completearms.html
  
 The only way to improve upon this arm without basically starting from scratch (and increasing the cost beyond reason...) would be a counterweight along these lines:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XTC-122gm-FITS-REGA-RB300-RB250-NAD-F-XR-GOLDRING-tonearm-UPGRADE-COUNTERWEIGHT-/111262034327?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessorie
  
 This style of counterweight is applicable to many other designs, most notable is the one for the otherwise excellent Hadcock unipivot tonearms, which are above royal level PITA to adjust for the azimuth in the first place - AND even more PITA to keep it that way long term. Design from this seller for Hadcock unipivots is both elegant and repeatable - and most important of all, should keep the adjustment over time well. With the usual improvement in sound this type of CW brings : better bass, soundstage, dynamic range, smoother treble - in short, an across the board improvement.
  
 (No affiliation with the seller, I (used to) use DIY CWs of this type for decades).


----------



## doctorcilantro

2 Clearaudios and a Palmer?


----------



## analogsurviver

doctorcilantro said:


> 2 Clearaudios and a Palmer?


 
 Not familiar with Palmer - what is it ?
  
 No _MuddyWaters_ over here - the ones I do like are actually OEM by Audio Technica ( CA's MM line ).


----------



## doctorcilantro

parbaked said:


> What a nice room and rig! I love the mess!
> Are those the new Zu Cubes? I have never seen them in situ...they look very useful!
> Cheers


 

 My wife does not like the mess. The mess is sadly, now gone.
  
 The Cubes, while unconventional, are amazing. I went with a Clarity Cap upgrade and I think the cabs are stacked birch. They disappear. I'm going to play around more with placement and some extreme-toe-in soon.
  
current setup, so as not to derail too much here but thanks! It's been a lot of work with a patient family!


----------



## analogsurviver

doctorcilantro said:


> My wife does not like the mess. The mess is sadly, now gone.
> 
> The Cubes, while unconventional, are amazing. I went with a Clarity Cap upgrade and I think the cabs are stacked birch. They disappear. I'm going to play around more with placement and some extreme-toe-in soon.
> 
> current setup, so as not to derail too much here but thanks! It's been a lot of work with a patient family!


 
 Although not familiar with all the gear in your system, the ones I know suggest the rest should be similarly well matched. Congrats - I like DIY absorbers the most !


----------



## doctorcilantro

Thanks, it's a long haul. I was just reading about "too much absorption" on the back wall, and it got me thinking. that back wall is almost 10feet back though and I think the room really needs it. It still has some ambiance, but it is a little eerie how dry the room is. I like it, better than the alternative, way too shrill before.


----------



## parbaked

doctorcilantro said:


> 2 Clearaudios and a Palmer?


 
 My thoughts exactly!


----------



## parbaked

analogsurviver said:


> Not familiar with Palmer - what is it ?


 
 http://www.palmeraudio.co.uk/
  
 I'm interested to know what you think as you are one of the few I would trust to judge a book by it's cover!


----------



## snapontom

The Kuzma guy is calling me later today.  Hope he has a reason to buy.  I need a deal.


----------



## parbaked

doctorcilantro said:


> My wife does not like the mess. The mess is sadly, now gone.
> 
> The Cubes, while unconventional, are amazing. I went with a Clarity Cap upgrade and I think the cabs are stacked birch. They disappear. I'm going to play around more with placement and some extreme-toe-in soon.
> 
> current setup, so as not to derail too much here but thanks! It's been a lot of work with a patient family!


 
 I see you had them 'murder' (blacken) the drivers as well. They look great on the maple blocks - better than in Zu's pics.
 Interesting link....glad you proudly documented the wallow. Cheers!


----------



## analogsurviver

parbaked said:


> http://www.palmeraudio.co.uk/
> 
> I'm interested to know what you think as you are one of the few I would trust to judge a book by it's cover!


 
 I only googled the link you have provided above (gallery) - NEVER heard of Palmer before ( I am 98,7654321 % of the time at present time & say last 5 years into recording music and upping the ante with recording equipment to the be$t of my abilititie$) , devoting  what little remains to mostly perfecting the *Sleeping Beauty . *( And a cartridge I hope will be able to establish itself in the market this time around ).
  
 I like the outboard power supply, I like the use of the Syrinx>Audio Origami tonearm, *if* there was an upper model of Lampizator digitalwhatever in the pics, the thing is at least in good company. I like the 3.0 better than the 2.5, assuming the motor is AC of the beefier sort and further reducing any motor vibration reaching the table proper is a good thing. *Assuming* a top notch, preferrably inverted type main bearing, the performance ( wow, flutter, rumble ) should at the very least be good, hopefull much higher than that. 
  
 It is a high mass design, from what I could decipher from photos not using any special suspension system, relying for resisting feedback on sheer mass. Its plinth has acres of area, which is susceptible to acoustic coupled feedback - if building a TT from scratch, I would tend to avoid that as much as possible. Repeating the plywood theme towards infinity also goes only so far.
  
 The deck uses kork or kork/rubber compound mat. From what I could decipher from photos, WITHOUT the recess below the record label - at prices I *assume* this TT commands, a serious failing IMO. I *hope* the clamp?weight is the former, basically an Oracle knock off type clamp, capable of bringing all but the most stubbornly warped/dished LPs in close contact with the mat across entire playing surface. If it is weight only... -
 please fill in the blanks yourself.
  
 A decent record/mat/platter interface is the #1 requirement in any TT which aspires to be granted a reson for its very existance in 2014, given the emerging HiRez digital. The pictures provide no hint appropriate measures have been taken in the Palmer design.


----------



## parbaked

analogsurviver said:


> I only googled the link you have provided above (gallery) - NEVER heard of Palmer before
> 
> I like the outboard power supply, I like the use of the Syrinx>Audio Origami tonearm,
> I like the 3.0 better than the 2.5, assuming the motor is AC of the beefier sort and further reducing any motor vibration reaching the table proper is a good thing. *Assuming* a top notch, preferrably inverted type main bearing, the performance ( wow, flutter, rumble ) should at the very least be good, hopefull much higher than that.
> ...


 
 motor is AC
 2.5 = $7500
 Oragami arm = $3500


----------



## analogsurviver

parbaked said:


> motor is AC
> 2.5 = $7500
> Oragami arm = $3500


 
 Something along my expectations.
  
 3.0 = $10K ?


----------



## parbaked

analogsurviver said:


> Something along my expectations.
> 
> 3.0 = $10K ?


 
 I have no idea...I can't count that high!


----------



## analogsurviver

parbaked said:


> I have no idea...I can't count that high!


 
 Oh, I see...
  
 I was "dressed" well - by the *Stereobest*, a yearly "compilation" issued as special issue of Italian _*Stereoplay*_ in the late 70s (yearly); showcasing usually latest/greatest from the Tokyo fair. After seeing those prices, top Audio Research or Mark Levinson or Threshold or whatever western equipment was *mid-fi *- at best.  It really did not matter if the first digit with yen price was 1 or 9 - because there were at least TWO zeroes too much at the end for my piggybank. Googleing up Uesugi and similar esoterics from Japan will provide you with a similar "background" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 Just because I know some of the $$$ stuff does not mean I own an odd (Audionote) Ongaku in one corner and yet more odd Gaku-on in another - I have to resort to squeezing absolute max out from the very limited means available. I am about making the sound/equipment _*decent enough*_ for a person with above average sensitivity for sound and an average income. And might one day, if everything goes well, design some statement device so $$$$ that even those extremely well to do will experience some anxiety at the bank, not knowing if the bank will approve them that much credit. Regardless, I always value rational decisions that bring the best results within given budget - and if that budget is too low to allow for the safe use of LP records, I am likely to say so and suggest digital instead.
  
 Although possible, it is not likely for me to be outdone in say
  
*THE* _*LEAST EXPENSIVE QUALITY ANALOG RIG off Ebay, Craiglist & equivalent sources round the globe SWEEPSTAKES*_
  
 for resulting sound, at least. Decades of experience are needed to accomplish that on kind of regular basis, ignoring a one lucky shot option. 
  
 But when really good performance of analog is required, there is unfortunately no way around decent styli/carts - and that was, is and will always remain $$$.


----------



## dosley01

New to me VPI Scout.
  

  
 Did VPI switch platters somwehere along the way?  The most recent specs show a 1-3/8" platter but this one is closer to 1-3/4" 
  
 It seems to me that earlier production had this bigger platter and closer to the end they went with the thinner platter.
  
 Anyhow, I was ear to ear grins after seconds.  I really liked my Marantz TT15S1 but have to say I love the VPI.


----------



## analogsurviver

dosley01 said:


> New to me VPI Scout.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Interesting. Not familiar with Marantz ( I know it is a Clearaudio in disguise ), heard VPI ages ago.
  
 Same cart on both ? What did improve for you the most ?


----------



## dosley01

analogsurviver said:


> Interesting. Not familiar with Marantz ( I know it is a Clearaudio in disguise ), heard VPI ages ago.
> 
> Same cart on both ? What did improve for you the most ?


 

 Grado Sonata on both.  I literally only have a album played on the Scout but it's one I'm very familiar with on the Marantz.  Right of the bat, the most obvious is the bottom end, much more authoritative.  The second thing is dynamics, as I've read in reviews, its almost like the must jumps out at you.  There is much more "snap" to it.  As we know in audio, especially analog audio, there are certainly diminishing returns and I would say the Marantz offers 90% of the performance of the Scout.  Since the TT15 comes bundled with the Clearaudio Virtuoso I can only guess what it would cost without a cartridge and I'd put it at about $999.  So at half the price of a Scout it really holds it's own.  Had I never bought the Scout, I could have been happy with the Marantz but it's too late for that now.   If there is as much iimprovement with a Classic 1 to the Scout as there was going from the Marantz to the VPI, there very well could be one in my future.  That being said, i promised myself (and the wife) that I'll be keeping this for a long while.  The next level requires way to many other upgrades to go with (cartridge, phono stage, etc...).


----------



## analogsurviver

dosley01 said:


> Grado Sonata on both.  I literally only have a album played on the Scout but it's one I'm very familiar with on the Marantz.  Right of the bat, the most obvious is the bottom end, much more authoritative.  The second thing is dynamics, as I've read in reviews, its almost like the must jumps out at you.  There is much more "snap" to it.  As we know in audio, especially analog audio, there are certainly diminishing returns and I would say the Marantz offers 90% of the performance of the Scout.  Since the TT15 comes bundled with the Clearaudio Virtuoso I can only guess what it would cost without a cartridge and I'd put it at about $999.  So at half the price of a Scout it really holds it's own.  Had I never bought the Scout, I could have been happy with the Marantz but it's too late for that now.   If there is as much iimprovement with a Classic 1 to the Scout as there was going from the Marantz to the VPI, there very well could be one in my future.  That being said, i promised myself (and the wife) that I'll be keeping this for a long while.  The next level requires way to many other upgrades to go with (cartridge, phono stage, etc...).


 
 Great reply. I specially like the dynamics bit - in anything musical, from musicians themselves to the last piece of wire:  if it has better dynamics. it IS better.
  
 The law of diminishing returns is likely to cause jump from Marantz to Scout larger than from Scout to Classic 1, but that is pure speculation on my part.


----------



## Androb

Alot of awesome TT!
 I am spinning this old budget Dual


----------



## bbophead

androb said:


> Alot of awesome TT!
> I am spinning this old budget Dual


 
 Looks great, bet it sounds excellent.  However, we (meaning, I) need a better pic without the glare/shadow.  I know, I'm picky.


----------



## analogsurviver

androb said:


> Alot of awesome TT!
> I am spinning this old budget Dual


 
 The forte of Duals is usually their high quality tonearms. Let down by "QuickDraw McGraw" cartridge fittings of one sort or another - these arms are capable of excellent results if these flimsy cartridge platforms are modified into something solid (and definitely NOT quick draw anymore...).
  
 Pic of the arm, glare-free, up close ?


----------



## arcorob

Duals were awesome...I had a 721 that was Direct Drive, suspended , rock steady speed, double damped arm AND..I got rid of the miserable sled contacts, rewired the arm and made NORMAL cart connections...sweet sweet...Built a wood base for it too...solid like a tank...LOL..but played like a feather...


----------



## parbaked

arcorob said:


> Duals were awesome...I had a 721 that was Direct Drive, suspended , rock steady speed, double damped arm AND..I got rid of the miserable sled contacts, rewired the arm and made NORMAL cart connections...sweet sweet...Built a wood base for it too...solid like a tank...LOL..but played like a feather...


 
 Rob...beautiful...what do you do with all these beauties that you reinvigorate? 
 They keep coming...
 I'm imagining a museum in your basement or garage...cheers!


----------



## Jasper9395

calipilot227 said:


> That is EXCELLENT! You need to start a turntable modding thread


 

 Yes please that would be great!


----------



## arcorob

parbaked said:


> Rob...beautiful...what do you do with all these beauties that you reinvigorate?
> They keep coming...
> I'm imagining a museum in your basement or garage...cheers!


 

 Par...I usually sell them - break even, lose money, get them good homes...LOL
  
 THAT one in particular, the guy was restoring an old built in console but wanted a good turntable...he bought it and guess what ? it fit 100% slide in with the wood base. He thought he was going to have to remove it from the base, but no...It was as if I built it for him...lol...
  
 I just enjoy doing it but I have slowed down ALOT...
  
 I would like to restore another AR/XA...they are so easy and come out awesome...


----------



## parbaked

arcorob said:


> I just enjoy doing it but I have slowed down ALOT...


 
 Most cool stuff is born out of passion, but hard to sustain...thanks for sharing!
 Cheers!


----------



## longbowbbs

Finally got the new Turntable set up....


----------



## palmfish

Sweet!


----------



## snapontom

Congrats, that's a nice set-up!  Hope you enjoy playing vinyl half as much as I do.  When I first started playing records I thought the music was a muted especially at the high end.  At first I asked myself, what's the big deal?  But I kept returning to analog playback and not in a conscious effort.  Pretty soon I was listening to it almost exclusively.  So I decided to make a comparison again.  The iphone, dac combo sounded shrill in comparison to my Dual, Shure V15 set-up. Your TT, arm, and cart are really nice.  Did you get a new album too?


----------



## longbowbbs

> Did you get a new album too?


 
  
 Ummm...."A" new album?.....As in singular? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 This is Head-Fi! I think I bought about 20!


----------



## Silent One

longbowbbs said:


> Ummm...."A" new album?.....As in singular?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I bet your new TT got more turns last night than a Roulette wheel
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 in Vegas! 
  
 And speaking of albums...




 ...I'm still waiting for my pre-order release of Janos Starker and the London Symphony Orchestra. I think I ordered it in August.


----------



## longbowbbs

silent one said:


> longbowbbs said:
> 
> 
> > Ummm...."A" new album?.....As in singular?
> ...


 
 Janos is amazing....It'll be worth the wait.  I think I'll name the TT 32 Red....


----------



## Oregonian

longbowbbs said:


> Finally got the new Turntable set up....


 
 Great album choice.


----------



## longbowbbs

oregonian said:


> longbowbbs said:
> 
> 
> > Finally got the new Turntable set up....
> ...


 
 Thanks! It is an all time favorite.


----------



## Silent One

> Originally Posted by *longbowbbs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Janos is amazing....It'll be worth the wait.  I think I'll name the TT 32 Red....


 
  
 I have the CD. My real aim 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 is to increase the number of 45rpm LPs I have. Due to expense, this can take awhile. But the more '"45s" I have, the easier it will be to play them before changing the belt/speed back to 33-1/3.


----------



## longbowbbs

silent one said:


> > Originally Posted by *longbowbbs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> >
> > Janos is amazing....It'll be worth the wait.  I think I'll name the TT 32 Red....
> 
> ...


 
 Nice part of the VPI is changing the belt is really easy.


----------



## Silent One

> Originally Posted by *longbowbbs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Nice part of the VPI is changing the belt is really easy.


 
 This is true on my end too, but...


----------



## bbophead

Nice thing about the Rega RP6 is all you have to do is push a button.


----------



## Silent One

Really though, the belt change is just another part of ceremony I suppose...


----------



## bbophead

silent one said:


> Really though, the belt change is just another part of ceremony I suppose...


 
 I agree but I don't miss that particular part.  Last time I changed belts for speed was my AR ES-1.  I sold it to a friend in Nawlins and a little later, Katrina got it.  Sniff.  
  
 Sad head-fier.


----------



## morserotonin

I just thought it was a sweet photo!


----------



## analogsurviver

silent one said:


> Really though, the belt change is just another part of ceremony I suppose...


 
 The belt change is something I can do without. It is kind of re-occuring with my interest in Tesla NC470/NAD5120 turntable. *If* you are lucky its belt "speed derailleur"
 works, if not, you've got ceremony *with benefits *



*...*
  
 Heretic
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 for most of the traditionalists, I know - but my aim is to make a TT that is next to as easy to operate as a CD player - remote control 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




included !


----------



## analogsurviver

morserotonin said:


> I just thought it was a sweet photo!


 
 Will Soundsmith _EVER _run out of variation on the basic Bang & Olufsen theme ?
  
 Regardless, it IS a sweet photo !


----------



## parbaked

analogsurviver said:


> Heretic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 SL-10 with remote?


----------



## morserotonin

I was reviewing the cart... very nice, but I prefer Soundsmith's DL-103 modification personally.


----------



## analogsurviver

parbaked said:


> SL-10 with remote?


 
 The following tables all have one common feature: track programming! Purrfect
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 for adding remote !
  
 First generation:
  
 Try SL-15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MU5tAdAzgs,
  
 SL-6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpLHjzOtac4
  
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fy5tyhy96Y
  
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6NGuaFinLg
 sound from preamp, not camera crap - YEAH, SL linear trackers ARE that solid in sound !
  
 SL-QL15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbPZS_plN9A
  
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdqL0McEqcA
  
 Second generation ( perfect start/end of song - EVERY TIME, even on off center pressed records )
  
  SL-J3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVHbBidjqBg
  
 SL-J33 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW2-0FThULY
  
 Track programming for 8-10 songs.
  
 Then, there were punk compilations with 15 second (on average) "songs" - and "godzillion" of tracks per side 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
 That is ( fortunately?) beyond  the capabilities of Technics' programmable tables...


----------



## Silent One

bbophead said:


> I agree but I don't miss that particular part.  Last time I changed belts for speed was my AR ES-1.  *I sold it to a friend in Nawlins and a little later, Katrina got it. * Sniff.
> 
> Sad head-fier.


 









 Well, better to lose consumer goodies than human life.


----------



## analogsurviver

silent one said:


> Well, better to lose consumer goodies than human life.


 
 +1.


----------



## bbophead

silent one said:


> Well, better to lose consumer goodies than human life.


 
 Huh?
  
 I LOVE jokes!


----------



## Silent One

bbophead said:


> Huh?
> 
> I LOVE jokes!


 
 I was just echoing a sentiment. But I hail from a NOLA family and never joke about such matters.


----------



## analogsurviver

silent one said:


> I was just echoing a sentiment. But I hail from a NOLA family and never joke about such matters.


 
 In Slovenia, we have a female pop group called _*Katrinas *_http://www.katrinas.net/skupina/ . They are quite good actually - and it was scheduled for them to give a mini tour throughout the places in the USA that do have people of Slovenian descent. 
  
 The fly in the ointment was that this group's tour was preceeded , by a few days, like a week or two, by its singular namesake - the infamous Katrina. You can *guess* what would be the reception of a group with such a name after such a devastating event - the tour got cancelled.
  
 Here the song *Letim ( I Fly ), live version with the symphonic orchestra, *to finally give the US audience, some taste what it would be like to be hit by Katrinas, plural :


----------



## bbophead

Very nice!  Thanks.


----------



## Depechetraff

This photo is just a random one I pulled off the internet, since my vinyl rig is in storage back in England at the moment - the house I could afford in NYC was waaaay too small for my turntable and vinyl     But anyway, my modest analogue system is a Michell Gyrodec, RB300 arm, Benz H20 cartridge, Audio Alchemy VITB phono stage, Acurus DIA100 amp, B&W P4 speakers.  And one comfortable chair.


----------



## bbophead

Today I installed the Rega white belt on to the GrooveTracer sub-platter.  Haven't had a chance to listen to it yet (been futzing with power tubes) but at least it looks pretty slick.


----------



## palmfish

bbophead said:


> Today I installed the Rega white belt on to the GrooveTracer sub-platter.  Haven't had a chance to listen to it yet (been futzing with power tubes) but at least it looks pretty slick.


 
  
 Are you "belt rolling?"
  
 I understand that white belts add clarity and shimmer while black belts have a darker more liquid sound. For a truly uncolored/neutral sound you need to use a grey belt. I don't know this first hand, but I read it on the internet so it must be true.


----------



## Errymoose

palmfish said:


> Are you "belt rolling?"
> 
> I understand that white belts add clarity and shimmer while black belts have a darker more liquid sound. For a truly uncolored/neutral sound you need to use a grey belt. I don't know this first hand, but I read it on the internet so it must be true.


 

 Do you put on a red belt to make it go faster? (45 rpm)


----------



## longbowbbs

palmfish said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > Today I installed the Rega white belt on to the GrooveTracer sub-platter.  Haven't had a chance to listen to it yet (been futzing with power tubes) but at least it looks pretty slick.
> ...


----------



## analogsurviver

errymoose said:


> Do you put on a red belt to make it go faster? (45 rpm)


 
 Belts are underrated in audiophile terms. It is still pretty thin ice area, from tolerances (either consistency of thichness and/or overall "slightly" thicker or thinner, making the speed "slightly" faster or slower - necessitating at least a device like Project Speed Box - just to have the correct RPMs ..) - to elasticity and therefore dynamics of drive. Once upon a time, Void had a pretty decent belt driven TTs - the better they were, the more belts (and motors) they were using. And indeed, fresh set of belts DID improve the sound. It had an opposite effect on the wallet - changing THREE belts EVERY 6 months guaranteed nice steady income to the manufacturer - for years after the original TT was sold.
  
 Better belt driven TTs ( Thorens, Linn, Well Tempered, latest Kuzma M ) use very precisely ground rubber belts - or belts out of materials that are by default high precision in every way. Lower price/quality decks that can use those high end belts usually DO get quite an improvement by using them, so belt in a belt driven TT is anything but gimmick. How much overpriced it is offered to the consumer is the decency/moral decision of the manufacturer.


----------



## bbophead

palmfish said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > Today I installed the Rega white belt on to the GrooveTracer sub-platter.  Haven't had a chance to listen to it yet (been futzing with power tubes) but at least it looks pretty slick.
> ...


 
 The interwebs _are_ the most trusted information pile.  I think it's the champagne color of the sound that is the white belt's biggest attribute, but, I could just be drunk.


----------



## bbophead

errymoose said:


> palmfish said:
> 
> 
> > Are you "belt rolling?"
> ...


 
 Don't need no stinking red belt.  There's a button for that.


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> errymoose said:
> 
> 
> > Do you put on a red belt to make it go faster? (45 rpm)
> ...


 
 Sounds logical.  The white belt is quite a bit thicker than stock, maybe 2X.  MSRP is a stiff $59 but I didn't pay quite that much.  I still haven't gotten around to listening, don't want to rush things, doncha know?  Must get used to looking at it.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Edit:  I note, with pride, that the RP6 is not included in the "better belt driven TTs."  Having had suspended tables for about 50 years, Garrard, AR, Norelco, B&O, AR again and Oracle, I'm really enjoying the unfussiness of the solid Rega.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Sounds logical.  The white belt is quite a bit thicker than stock, maybe 2X.  MSRP is a stiff $59 but I didn't pay quite that much.  I still haven't gotten around to listening, don't want to rush things, doncha know?  Must get used to looking at it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 He he, YOUR spiffed up ( with all those high precision parts, but that hardly still can be called a Rega - can it ? ) sample most likely DOES deserve to be included in the "better belt driven TT"  category 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Seriously, I would like to hear such a wolf in a shipskin someday.
  
 And yes, I do agree, all said and done, in real life unfussiness of Rega compared to suspended tables does have its appeal. On good support, it can be superb.
  
 You also *might* qualify as the 1st Chairman of the *International *_*Analogue Turntable Belt Fetischist Society*_ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Pink, fluorescent , glows in the dark belt - anyone ?


----------



## Hijodelbrx

All this talk about belts reminds me of a tweak from back in the day, putting a little talcum powder on yr thumb and forefinger and applying it to the belt. Haven't done it in a very long time but maybe that's why I haven't needed to change the belt in my LP12 for over 20 yrs!


----------



## analogsurviver

hijodelbrx said:


> All this talk about belts reminds me of a tweak from back in the day, putting a little talcum powder on yr thumb and forefinger and applying it to the belt. Haven't done it in a very long time but maybe that's why I haven't needed to change the belt in my LP12 for over 20 yrs!


 
 Yup...
  
 said cycling fan ( talcum powder used in between inner tube and tyre for faster clinchers ) ... -  talcum powder used generally everywhere when rubber parts are to be preserved for longer times, either in storage or to reduce the wear and tear during normal operation.


----------



## Paul Graham

Finally got my gear out of storage and up to date after moving.
 Recently switched the R200 arm for the Michel Engineering RB300.
 Currently waiting for a Nagaoka MP-11 Cart.
 Just need to source a good phono stage now and thats the livingroom vinyl setup sorted for now.


----------



## longbowbbs

paul graham said:


> Finally got my gear out of storage and up to date after moving.
> Recently switched the R200 arm for the Michel Engineering RB300.
> Currently waiting for a Nagaoka MP-11 Cart.
> Just need to source a good phono stage now and thats the livingroom vinyl setup sorted for now.


 
 Looking good Paul...I hope Jade knows the madness she married into to!


----------



## analogsurviver

paul graham said:


> Finally got my gear out of storage and up to date after moving.
> Recently switched the R200 arm for the Michel Engineering RB300.
> Currently waiting for a Nagaoka MP-11 Cart.
> Just need to source a good phono stage now and thats the livingroom vinyl setup sorted for now.


 
 I spy a Stanton/Pickering cart presently on the Rega - which model is it? I would be interested how do you find the Nagaoka MP11 after Stanton/Pickering in comparison.
  
 Curios - what is the object near the portable rig to the left - record weight/clamp ?


----------



## Jasper9395

paul graham said:


> Finally got my gear out of storage and up to date after moving.
> Recently switched the R200 arm for the Michel Engineering RB300.
> Currently waiting for a Nagaoka MP-11 Cart.
> Just need to source a good phono stage now and thats the livingroom vinyl setup sorted for now.


 

 What isolation feet are you using?


----------



## parbaked

jasper9395 said:


> What isolation feet are you using?


 
 If you are looking for good feet for a Rega you should check out Mr. Lim: http://lpturntables.blogspot.com/2011/10/standing-and-singing-better-on-new-feet.html
  

 These take the wobble out


----------



## parbaked

analogsurviver said:


> He he, YOUR spiffed up ( with all those high precision parts, but that hardly still can be called a Rega - can it ? ) sample most likely DOES deserve to be included in the "better belt driven TT"  category
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I would argue that any RB250 equipped Rega, with ones's favorite cartridge, deserves to be included in the better belt drive category.
 Even unmodified, properly isolated, they are that good...in the real world...especially for the $$$


----------



## Silent One

I love that pix!


----------



## analogsurviver

parbaked said:


> I would argue that any RB250 equipped Rega, with ones's favorite cartridge, deserves to be included in the better belt drive category.
> Even unmodified, properly isolated, they are that good...in the real world...especially for the $$$


 
*Conditionally true* - both the table and the arm in stock form lack the precision required to deserve such a rating. It is true that for the $$$ you can not get anything comparable new. 
  
*HOWEVER *- and that is a big however - Rega RB 250 can be made into http://www.audiomods.co.uk/
  



 This thing *starts *by lapping the cartridge mounting platform into perfectly flat surface - not Rega's unmachined cast part that is anything but flat. I could go on for pages ... it is detail after detail after ....detail - that in the end lead towards inclusion in *better turntable *category.
  
 The same can be said for Rega stock platter/subplatter/bearing - please see what bbophead has done with his Rega. Although both Audiomods and "precision made US parts" are more costly than Rega entry level, they are much more cost efficient than Rega's better higher priced models - which still just can not match the precision . Audiomods arm has better, MUCH better bearings than stock Rega RB 1000 - for example. Why ? Inherently, it is not possible to manufacture steel balls (spheres) with equal or better precision than ceramic ones - plus ceramics is self greasing so to speak, BOTH properties leading to tighter tolerance bearing with less play and lower friction. I see it hard that Audiomods still is among the very few (only?) manufacturer that uses ceramic bearings in its arms, everybody else soldiering on with steel - despite ceramic bearings proved themselves  long ago in other applications, like military equipment and racing bicycles.
  
 Audiophile crowd is the one probably most reliant on tradition and least willing to accept new technical solutions - unless used by a premium manufacturer and priced exhorbitantly high - ONLY THEN it  will perhaps gain the recognition deserved. Rega is playing a very precisely thougt out game here - they did find the way to produce relatively easy not too costly to produce equipment that does have edge over similarly priced competition - but it is nowhere the end of the road and can be
 made to perform significantly better at not too exhorbitant price by third party manufacturers. Making a knock off of Funk Firm's table with better materials and pricing it in 5 figures does not lead to any different judgement of Rega's pricing policies either.


----------



## Paul Graham

jasper9395 said:


> What isolation feet are you using?


 
  
 I bought a set of four custom made feet for a Gaming PC build from Bill Owen at MNPCTECH. These were originally destined for a custom built PC.
 Now you see Ive used them as isolation feet and they do a great job of it too.
  
 The billet aluminium cases to the feet were used for my home made record clamp. 
  


longbowbbs said:


> Looking good Paul...I hope Jade knows the madness she married into to!


 
  
 Thanks Eric, And yeh she's pretty good with my hobby to be honest, She's just let me order a Partington Prisma AV stand for all the Home cinema gear. 


analogsurviver said:


> I spy a Stanton/Pickering cart presently on the Rega - which model is it? I would be interested how do you find the Nagaoka MP11 after Stanton/Pickering in comparison.
> 
> Curios - what is the object near the portable rig to the left - record weight/clamp ?


 
  
 Its a Stanton AL500 MKII. Usually a DJ cart but using it for the minute until I collect the Nagaoka.
 I'll post my thoughts up once I've made the switch.
  
 Its a home made record weight/clamp until I get the real thing. Its not very heavy at all so its not affecting the motor/belt.


----------



## longbowbbs

> longbowbbs said:
> 
> 
> > Looking good Paul...I hope Jade knows the madness she married into to!
> ...


----------



## parbaked

analogsurviver said:


> *Conditionally true* - both the table and the arm in stock form lack the precision required to deserve such a rating. *It is true that for the $$$ you can not get anything comparable new. *
> 
> *HOWEVER *- and that is a big however - Rega RB 250 can be made into http://www.audiomods.co.uk/
> 
> ...


 
 A.S. you miss the point of my post. I said that even a stock Rega should be included in the _*better turntable*_ category. 
 I never said *end of the road. *Your response was as if I said the Rega was the best TT, which I did not.
  
 You state: *It is true that for the $$$ you can not get anything comparable new. *Why would the TT with the best performance per $$ not be included in the better category?
 I think value should be a consideration.
  
  
 The Audiomod arm is great but the 303 based arms start at $1200. It is an end game arm.
 You can buy an RP3 turntable with the 303 tonearm and a $300 cartridge for less. 
 Interesting that Rega sells the castings to Audiomod and other aftermarket modifiers (MIchell, Origin Live etc) so Rega encourages these competitors/options.
 Most manufacturers would sell OEM arms, which Rega does, but not parts...
  
 I am not sure what Rega TT you refer to that knocks off which Funk.
 The only Funk sold in the US is the LSD, which is not that special.
 If it is the Funk Vector, the only similarity to new Rega is the skeletal base, which is not a Funk innovation.
 The point of the Vector is the 3 pulleys, not the base, and I don't think Rega is doing that...but I could be wrong as I am not as knowledgeable as you.
  
 I am fortunate to live near a good audio shop with a nice selection of TT, including Funk and Rega and others. http://www.audiovisionsf.com/?page=turntables_analog
 I am in there all the time especially as they have so many used and trade in TT to tempt one. 
 have listened to the Funk LSD ($2500) next to the Rega RP3 ($900) and RP6 ($1500), which is what bbophead has.
 The Regas certainly compete and are arguably better for the $$$.
  
 That is why I think they are belong in the better category...not best or end of the road...just better...cheers!


----------



## analogsurviver

parbaked said:


> A.S. you miss the point of my post. I said that even a stock Rega should be included in the _*better turntable*_ category.
> I never said *end of the road. *Your response was as if I said the Rega was the best TT, which I did not.
> 
> You state: *It is true that for the $$$ you can not get anything comparable new. *Why would the TT with the best performance per $$ not be included in the better category?
> ...


 
 I basically agree with you. 
  
 However, there is a point in performance when it is good enough - or below that. And I had hard time understanding that "not good enough" - regardless of relative bargain it represents to competition. Specially if that "good enough" was/is above my piggybank. But eventually, I learned to accept this. And keep filling that piggybank until full enough for "good enough".
  
 Rega is extremely pragmatic manufacturer and sell whatever sells best - including raw materials to "competition". An Audiomod is still 10 % Rega's income and zero % SME - or whichever other manufacturer.
  
 A better turntable is better in absolute terms, not relative to the price. Rega models that fit in this category are pricey - there are less expensive options of comparable quality. That was the point of my above post.
  
 The whole "bang for the buck" (US) and "best buy" ( UK) approach, although good for the majority, has one extremely bad influence; it stifles the true cutting edge designs, promoting the level of say Rega 3 as "better turntable". It is not.  I do not mean it is necessary to go to the extreme levels of say a Melco in order to arrive at "better TT" designation ((it is waaay over the top massive design(s), inspiring the comparably small BIG Micro Seikis ) - but RP3 is perhaps an equivalent of VW Golf in automotive world - it is a good car, due to reputation keeps resale value among the highest, but is pricey relative the competition offering similar or better performance at lower cost. 
  
 Serious Rega (6 and up) are relatively costlier yet. And to get the RP6 to "better TT" level, it is about the course taken by bbophead. If Rega produced a similarly precisely made model, it would have been less expensive in the end. THAT would justify the inclusion in the "better turntable" category - "good enough" - and relatively affordable.


----------



## parbaked

analogsurviver said:


> I basically agree with you.
> 
> However, there is a point in performance when it is good enough - or below that. And I had hard time understanding that "not good enough" - regardless of relative bargain it represents to competition. Specially if that "good enough" was/is above my piggybank. But eventually, I learned to accept this. And keep filling that piggybank until full enough for "good enough".
> 
> ...


 
 You are still not getting my point: The RP6 is a "better" TT without modification. In fact the RP6 does not require or really benefit from further modifications. 
  
 What you perhaps don't understand is that all these aftermarket modifications e.g. Groovetacer, Origin Live, Mr. Lim etc, are designed to bring the lower Rega models up to the RP6 level, not to improve the RP6. 
 The RP6 already has a fantastic machined sub-platter and a very sophisticated 2-piece glass platter that interface perfectly. 
 The only way to improve an RP6 is to replace the tonearm or the plinth in which case you have an RP8. 
  
 Please consider how much technology is packed into the RP6.
 It takes the Rega model of 1) light stiff plinth, 2) quiet motor, 3) light stiff one piece tone arm almost as far as it can go without really hitting diminishing returns:
 http://www.needledoctor.com/Rega-RP6-Turntable_2?sc=2&category=353
  
 If the RP3 is a Golf, the RP6 is 3 Series...Cheers!


----------



## longbowbbs

I am very happy with my Scout 1.1.


----------



## ]eep

I feel we are getting onto semantics here, and someone is jumping in the trenches to defend his choice of words... 

Rega is a very decent manufacturer that has done the record industry a tremendous deal of good, not just by it's designs but also by it's attitude. And how this proves to be the smart choice in the end. The Rega arm (+fitting) is a de facto standard, and since copying is the ultimate compliment, it is also good publicity for them. In the end it helps their reputation as well as their sales. Manufacturers (of confectioned goods, not customwares) that allow customers to tweak and upgrade their products to this extent (selling parts and thus service) is a rare thing - in the whole world! I think it is marvelous that a manufacturer generously allows competitors to buy parts and improve their ideas. And in the process helps them get new ideas and feedback on their products. 

That all said, Rega is still a UK manufacturer. And that means; reputation. Just like German, Italian or Japanese. Or US. 
Warning: sarcastic generalisations ahead! (take with a rock of salt and a sense of humor  ).
German often means: sturdy, well designed, no frills. Italian means; "oh look at me" "Oh no it broke". Japanese: this is perfect, you can buy, only this price (until there is a defect, than an executive takes all the blame in a filled pressroom while bending over and crying profoundly and heartfelt). In the US (do I dare say this?) we are biggest, best, strongest and the intelligentest of the whole world. Big bold and cluncky. But it (doesn't) allways work(s). And then there is the English way. They are smart thinkers and bright tinkerers. But shoddy manufacturers and finishers (is the pub open yet?). Oh, and I forgot Chinese: You want this? We can make it for you (and copy your designs and sell them + QC fails on the black market). 
All over the world there are dreamers, thinkers, artists, craftsmen, merchants and conmen. Unfortunately one can't do without the other. And don't forget transport...

Most of the time I must agree with analogsurviver. Like up^
Just, a few posts back where he commented on belts... that was kind of a booboo. The belt has nothing to do with the right speed. You can use a rubberband, a fishingline, a rope or a cable, the speed is determined *only* by the speed of the motor devided by the ratio of the two wheelsizes ((sub)platter / pulleysize). 
Pulleysize x motorspeed == plattersize x platterspeed. No strings attached.


----------



## Baxide

]eep said:


> Just, a few posts back where he commented on belts... that was kind of a booboo. The belt has nothing to do with the right speed. You can use a rubberband, a fishingline, a rope or a cable, the speed is determined *only* by the speed of the motor devided by the ratio of the two wheelsizes ((sub)platter / pulleysize).
> Pulleysize x motorspeed == plattersize x platterspeed. No strings attached.


 
 I used to believe that about belt as well. Then I ended up working for a company that was one of the two largest suppliers of replacements belts for VCRs Cassette decks, turntables etc. across Europe. It's actually easy to test once you know how to. By just varying a belt size between -5 to +5% and then measuring the speed of rotation of a turntable with an accurate enough strobe, you can clearly see the speed of rotation of the platter changing by quite a large margin. The reason for that turns out to be the slippage experience by the motor pulley when the belt tension is too slack.


----------



## Jasper9395

Just wanted to share another mod I did to my P3-24. I put some sorbothane (a shock absorbing and vibration damping material) between the platter and sub-platter. The stuff relies on having a certain load so I had to weigh the platter first and then calculate the right amount of sorbothane needed. The result is most notable in the highs which are clearer now. I did have to shim the arm a little as I was using a 3mm thick sheet to cut pieces from. Another good thing about this material is that because it is malleable and thanks to gravity the platter will end up exactly level. 
  

  
 Also, here is a nice video on sorbothane. I though it was kinda funny.
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVN98EwM3l0


----------



## ]eep

'kinda funny' 
I call it hilarious. Talk about product confidence... letting a hulk hammer away with a mallet on your own fingers. 

As long as the platter stays perfectly level... but that depends on the distribution of the pieces. That needs to be quite even. It's just like balancing a car tire.



> The reason for that turns out to be the slippage experience by the motor pulley when the belt tension is too slack.



Yes, but with a belt that doesn't slip it doesn't affect speed. Only wow and flutter. Slipping occurs when friction on the platter is greater than the force the belt can transmit. On a good TT friction is minimal, depending on choices. For instance a Dr Feickert has a high friction axle on purpose. And not counting spin-up (F=M*a).


----------



## Jasper9395

]eep said:


> 'kinda funny'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I guess 'kinda funny' was an understatement 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Your quite right about the distribution of the pieces being important. However, it is much easier to get it right when using sorbothane compared to rubber. Before there was a rubber band inside the groove in the sub-platter which made the platter a bit wobbly. It made me have to spend way to much time adjusting it. With the sorbothane as long as the distribution is roughly equal everything stays level.


----------



## bbophead

parbaked said:


> You are still not getting my point: The RP6 is a "better" TT without modification. *In fact the RP6 does not require or really benefit from further modifications.*
> 
> What you perhaps don't understand is that all these aftermarket modifications e.g. Groovetacer, Origin Live, Mr. Lim etc, are designed to bring the lower Rega models up to the RP6 level, not to improve the RP6.
> *The RP6 already has a fantastic machined sub-platter* and a very sophisticated 2-piece glass platter that interface perfectly.
> ...


 
 Perhaps if the RP8 had been available when I bought the RP6, I _might_ have been tempted.  Part of me just wanted to "trick out" the unit but I think the benefits are real.    Why wouldn't I think that, I must justify the bucks spent.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  After fifty years of dealing with sprung turntables, I'm loving the simplicity of Rega so I'm gonna show the love by "improving" the table.
  
 The Ortofon cartridge is better than the whatever they call it that is recommended for the RP6.  Rega cartridges have very little street cred.  I always liked the Ortofons I've had in the past although they were MCs.
  
 I believe (you gotta have faith) that the underslung counterweight is an improvement over stock.
  
 The GT jewel bearing is an improvement over stock.
  
 The GT subplatter is all aluminum as opposed to the plastic wonder underbelly of the stock subplatter.  "Fantastic" does _not_ come to mind.
  
   
  
  
  
 Althought the stock glass platter is nice, I prefer the slightly heavier delrin platter (gives a little more of the flywheel effect) and I don't need a platter mat.  The center of the GT platter is dished to accomodate the record label.  Mats are a pain, don't you agree?
  
 The white belt is at least 2X thicker than the stock black.  I notice more torq is available when running my Hunt carbon fiber brush over the record for one last swipe at the dust bunnies.
  
 Does my RP6 sound better now?  
  
 I think so.


----------



## Baxide

> Does my RP6 sound better now?
> I think so.


 
 I am with you on that all the way.


----------



## Jasper9395

I have the same experience with my p3-24, the upgrades make a huge differance. The table I have now is so much better than the one I started off with!


----------



## parbaked

bbophead said:


> The GT subplatter is all aluminum as opposed to the plastic wonder underbelly of the stock subplatter.  "Fantastic" does _not_ come to mind.
> 
> Althought the stock glass platter is nice, I prefer the slightly heavier delrin platter (gives a little more of the flywheel effect) and I don't need a platter mat.  The center of the GT platter is dished to accomodate the record label.
> 
> ...


 
 Sorry to confuse! Rega has upgraded models. It looks like your RP6 is like the new RP3 with an upgraded outboard power supply???
 The RP6 NOW comes with a much better sub-platter/platter than any after-market combination. Hence my raving description as *fantastic*!

  
 All this for $1500 = pretty cool.
 The key is the interface between platter and sub-platter but please read description for yourself.
 ttp://www.needledoctor.com/Rega-RP6-Turntable_2?sc=2&category=353
  
 One silly thing about the beautifully machined after-market sub-platters is most need rubber feet or grommets between the metal and glass (or Delrin) platters.
 The cheap plastic stock sub-platter don't need that. 
 Also some machined subs don't grip the belt like the textured plastic and require special belt or the white one.
 The bearings etc are much better on the pimp sub-platters but the rubber feet bug me, especially as far as being level...
  
 The bad thing about mats is you can't see your pimping sub-platter!!
  
 Yes better belt is great for brushing!!
  
 I have experience modifying Regas. In my experience these are the key mods/upgrades to the older P-2/3/5 series, with which I am familiar:
 1. Cartridge - yes the Ortofons are perfect whatever color you can afford!
 2. Stable platform or shelf.
 3. Isolate motor (de-couple from plinth using a separate base) 
 4. Replace RB250 plastic stub/counterweight - RB300/303 are fine...
  
 The ones that are most often regretted/reversed are:
 1. re-cabling tone-arm
 2. acrylic platters
  
  
  
 Your RP6 is pimping! I love it...cheers!
 I was only saying that if I had the new one, I wouldn't change anything...just spend my money on the cartridge and music...just my 2 cents.


----------



## Jasper9395

parbaked said:


> Your RP6 is pimping! I love it...cheers!
> I was only saying that if I had the new one, I wouldn't change anything...just spend my money on the cartridge and music...just my 2 cents.


 
 I think your quite right! I drooled over the RP6, 8, and 10 tables when they came out. Rega seems to have incorporated so many things which the people modifying the older tables are doing.
  
 It will be very interesting to see how people are going to improve on these new tables.
  
 BTW, I think I am going to de-couple the motor from the plinth of my p3 next. It seems like such a obvious yet cheap upgrade!


----------



## parbaked

jasper9395 said:


> I drooled over the RP6, 8, and 10 tables when they came out.
> 
> Rega seems to have incorporated so many things which the people modifying the older tables are doing.
> 
> BTW, I think I am going to de-couple the motor from the plinth of my p3 next. It seems like such a obvious yet cheap upgrade!


 
  
 It looks like Rega put the RP8 sub platter/platter on the new RP6 and put the braced plinth from the RP6 on the new RP3...so many upgrades they should have re-named the RP6 and RP3. 
  
 Yes, even the plinth brace was done by modifiers years ago. Mr. Lim's blog is a great resource: http://lpturntables.blogspot.com/2013/02/top-metal-bracing-for-rega-turntables.html
  
 He also makes a fine motor isolation base: http://lpturntables.blogspot.com/2010/11/motor-isolation-base-for-rega.html
  
 I use his feet which are very good, no wobble: http://lpturntables.blogspot.com/2011/10/standing-and-singing-better-on-new-feet.html


----------



## bbophead

parbaked said:


> jasper9395 said:
> 
> 
> > I drooled over the RP6, 8, and 10 tables when they came out.
> ...


 
 Where can I buy this "wobble" you speak of?  I don't have any.


----------



## Jasper9395

parbaked said:


> Yes, even the plinth brace was done by modifiers years ago. Mr. Lim's blog is a great resource


 
 Yep, I'm aware of the Mr. Lim stuff. His blog has so many interesting ideas on it and his products have a great reputation indeed. I got my sub-platter, dual pulley, extra belts, new bearing and oil from an Argentinan guy called Gus though. The whole package was only 65 pounds!
  
 This is his ebay shop:
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/crimson_ml_1969


----------



## calipilot227

bbophead said:


> Where can I buy this "wobble" you speak of?  I don't have any.


 
  
 That hasn't been a problem since the early Planar series, if I recall correctly. Hell, even the original MDF platter on my P2 was dead on.


----------



## parbaked

calipilot227 said:


> That hasn't been a problem since the early Planar series, if I recall correctly. Hell, even the original MDF platter on my P2 was dead on.


 
 We were referring to the self-leveling stock rubber feet, not the platter.
 I remember that platter wobble was a reason to upgrade the sub-platter. 
 I actually have an P-5 sub-platter on my P-2 as Rega supposedly selected the closest tolerance plastic parts for the P-5...


----------



## ]eep

bbophead said:


> Where can I buy this "wobble" you speak of?  I don't have any.



You can get Jah Wobble at any good recordstore I guess.


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > Where can I buy this "wobble" you speak of?  I don't have any.
> ...


 
 Nearest record store is about 100 klicks away.


----------



## Silent One

bbophead said:


> Nearest record store is about 100 klicks away.


 





 I've a strong hunch that you're the one Amazon is marketing their delivery drones to.


----------



## ]eep

The drone is probably programmed to hide behind the bushes until you leave home to drop this in your mailbox:


----------



## Silent One




----------



## bbophead

Fusioning out.


----------



## Silent One

bbophead said:


> Fusioning out.


----------



## Eee Pee

VPI Traveler - Grado Sonata 1 - Soundsmith MMP3
 Schiit Mjolnir - Senn HD 600


----------



## bbophead

I'll bet that sounds damn nice!


----------



## Silent One

It's been a few weeks since I last broke out some wax.


----------



## bbophead

Bring it.


----------



## analogsurviver

silent one said:


> It's been a few weeks since I last broke out some wax.


 
 +1. Busy with recordings, not even properly "accepting" gear/records coming from ebay...
  
 But there is *THE ONE *LP that I could at long last, some 30 years after originally issued, lay hands on.  It will make quite a stir after all is first done, than said. Another one of those "what if..." stories - but I will not be able to publish the result before a month or two; requires complete overhaul and modification/modernization of the gear necessary to play it properly, ordering parts from the USA, etc - but it should sound trully great in the end.  Stay tuned !


----------



## Silent One

analogsurviver said:


> +1. Busy with recordings, not even properly "accepting" gear/records coming from ebay...
> 
> But there is *THE ONE *LP that I could at long last, some 30 years after originally issued, lay hands on.  It will make quite a stir after all is first done, than said. Another one of those "what if..." stories - but I will not be able to publish the result before a month or two; requires complete overhaul and modification/modernization of the gear necessary to play it properly, ordering parts from the USA, etc - but it should sound trully great in the end.  *Stay tuned !*


----------



## Redcarmoose

eee pee said:


> VPI Traveler - Grado Sonata 1 - Soundsmith MMP3
> Schiit Mjolnir - Senn HD 600


 

 NICE!


----------



## Eee Pee

Vali and HD 800...


----------



## bbophead

eee pee said:


> Vali and HD 800...


 
 Grado cartridge feeding Sennheiser cans.  I'm having a disconnect moment.


----------



## longbowbbs

eee pee said:


> Vali and HD 800...


 
 That is simple and elegant!


----------



## Eee Pee

I need some sort of nice silver serving tray to put all that on, and I'd have a nice portable vinyl rig.


----------



## longbowbbs

eee pee said:


> I need some sort of nice silver serving tray to put all that on, and I'd have a nice portable vinyl rig.


 





 I want to see your extension cord!


----------



## Silent One

Make sure it's wide enough for a tea cup... and your TT.


----------



## analogsurviver

silent one said:


> Make sure it's wide enough for a tea cup... and your TT.


 
 Definitely - in that order. If everything else to "lure" me into something/anything fails, mention of Fortnum and Mason's *Lapsang Souchong* being served there used to change my mind in a heartbeat...


----------



## Silent One




----------



## Greyson




----------



## OldSkool

Niiiice!!!!


----------



## bbophead

A Classic TT.  Look, Ma, no wires.


----------



## Greyson

The Technics has been my faithful turntable for many years. I wish they had made a version without the pitch slider simply because i've never once used it.


----------



## bbophead

greyson said:


> The Technics has been my faithful turntable for many years. I wish they had made a version without the pitch slider simply because i've never once used it.


 
 Well, it's my understanding they don't make _any_ version of it now.  I think Pioneer is about to sell a look alike soon, maybe this year, but I'll bet it has the slider on it.  DJs, you know?


----------



## parbaked

Today...vinyl:


----------



## Eee Pee

Hey alright.  Have you ever heard Les Claypool's Frog Brigade cover of Animals?  There are moments where I think his is better.  It's on Youtube if you want a taste.
  
 Floyd rules.


----------



## bbophead

parbaked said:


> Today...vinyl:


 
 Looks like a Rega.  Me likee.
  
 Tell us more.


----------



## Silent One

parbaked said:


> Today...vinyl:


 






 I only come home now to discover "Vinyl Thursday?" "Spinning" on the first day of Spring, yeah? I may have to wait until Friday night, though... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers to your inspiration


----------



## Shaffer

eee pee said:


> I need some sort of nice silver serving tray to put all that on, and I'd have a nice portable vinyl rig.




Maple butcher block (cutting board). They come in a variety of sizes.


----------



## Greyson

bbophead said:


> Well, it's my understanding they don't make _any_ version of it now.  I think Pioneer is about to sell a look alike soon, maybe this year, but I'll bet it has the slider on it.  DJs, you know?


 
  
 That's why I said _had_ in the past-tense. Technics copycats are nothing new, though.
  
 People like Stanton and Audio-Technica have been doing it for years.


----------



## Paul Graham

Nad Phonostage arrived so the Sansui Amp is now out ready to be stripped down, Cleaned and set up in the bedroom system.
Nad PP1, Ok its not high end but its already made a huge difference to the sound. I now have a much better bass presence and The brightness of the Sansui's built in phono stage isn't there any more. I now have a warmer vinyl sound which is what Im after anyway


----------



## Paul Graham

bbophead said:


> Looks like a Rega.  Me likee.
> 
> Tell us more.


 
  
 Looks like a Planar 3 to me with either an RB205 or an RB300


----------



## parbaked

paul graham said:


> Looks like a Planar 3 to me with either an RB205 or an RB300


 
 P2 / RB250 / Benz Micro Silver / Mr. Lim's Shoes...


----------



## Paul Graham

Haha I wasn't toooo far off then lol.
 Nice looking setup there dude


----------



## bbophead

parbaked said:


> paul graham said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like a Planar 3 to me with either an RB205 or an RB300
> ...


 
 Not a thing wrong with that set up!


----------



## parbaked

bbophead said:


> Not a thing wrong with that set up!


 
  


paul graham said:


> Haha I wasn't toooo far off then lol.
> Nice looking setup there dude


 
 The big picture:

  
 This is my office rig...I get NO work done!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Analog: P2 > VTL Maximal > custom SEP amp > Spendor S3/5 or H600
 Digital: Sony DVD transport > MHDT DAC (TD-1543) > custom SEP amp > Spendor S3/5 or HD600


----------



## Silent One

parbaked said:


> P2 / RB250 / Benz Micro Silver / Mr. Lim's Shoes...


 
 A very clean setup... _by starlight or daylight entering the room._


----------



## alanbeeb

Scheu Premier II with Clearaudio Unify 12" with previous Benz cart:

  
 Now with Benz Glider L2.


----------



## parbaked

I have platter envy!:eek:


----------



## longbowbbs

parbaked said:


> I have platter envy!


 
 Clearly.....( 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## bbophead

alanbeeb said:


> Scheu Premier II with Clearaudio Unify 12" with previous Benz cart:
> 
> 
> Now with Benz Glider L2.


 
 This is quite fahncee.  Congratulations.


----------



## Silent One

parbaked said:


> I have platter envy!


 
  I have platter-tonearm-cart envy... trade?


----------



## Errymoose

silent one said:


> I have platter-tonearm-cart envy... trade?


 

 now that you're here... i envy all those things + your amps...


----------



## Silent One

errymoose said:


> now that you're here... i envy all those things + your amps...


 
 Thanks. This summer, I hope to give my amps a better play mate. And then shop for more wax!


----------



## Eee Pee

What a nice thing to stare at.  For hours on end.


----------



## calipilot227

BEAUTIFUL!


----------



## OldSkool

@alanbeeb
  
 Wow! I have never seen a platter like that! It's a beauty!
  
 Any more pics?


----------



## alanbeeb

Thanks for positive comments folks.... will post a pic of the full TT tonight.  Its entirely made from transparent acrylic, apart from the motor and bearing of course.


----------



## ]eep

I don't know... there 's something fishy about that platter.


----------



## alanbeeb

Hey- someone call the animal cruelty society!
  
 Here's the full thing....


----------



## analogsurviver

alanbeeb said:


> Hey- someone call the animal cruelty society!
> 
> Here's the full thing....


 
*THIS *belongs to analog porn thread... - the light in appropriate colour is already in place 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Congrats 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, how does it sound ?


----------



## flibottf

Rega Rp6 with Exact


----------



## bbophead

flibottf said:


> Rega Rp6 with Exact


 
 Very nice pic.  I love my RP6.  I was really tempted by the red but decided on black in the end.


----------



## analogsurviver

Actually, I will be using this vid for opening a can of analog worms in the future - but let's first appreciate what  is good in it :


----------



## doctorcilantro

analogsurviver said:


> Actually, I will be using this vid for opening a can of analog worms in the future - but let's first appreciate what  is good in it :





 Nice vid. Thanks, I was digging it. Saw a thumb of M. Weisfeld from VPI after your video. What's your opinion on the Nomad table from VPI?


----------



## analogsurviver

doctorcilantro said:


> Nice vid. Thanks, I was digging it. Saw a thumb of M. Weisfeld from VPI after your video. What's your opinion on the Nomad table from VPI?


 
 Sorry, not particularly familiar with VPI. I will be doing installation of ??? (upper/towards TOTL ) VPI model for the distributor in our country "shortly" - and will report my impressions then.


----------



## Silent One

I tried very hard - and I failed - to mentally move beyond the LP I so love in my collection ("To Know You Is To Love You" - B.B. King) and accept another's attempt (Thelma's). This production could very well have some technical merit, _but is doesn't swing. _
  
 Yeah I know... That B.B. kills it is beside the point. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I tried hard to stand down during playback. But I'm better for it being shared by AS - we like pix & vid in this thread.


----------



## johnman1116

that was an amazing video and song. +1


----------



## analogsurviver

silent one said:


> I tried very hard - and I failed - to mentally move beyond the LP I so love in my collection ("To Know You Is To Love You" - B.B. King) and accept another's attempt (Thelma's). This production could very well have some technical merit, _but is doesn't swing. _
> 
> Yeah I know... That B.B. kills it is beside the point.
> 
> ...


 
 Hehe - this is the SECOND time IN A DAY - B.B.King is being mentioned to me as having the upper hand on a song - the other one was Never Make Your Move Too Soon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYlzUY_p-JE vs my selection http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZGqg6CiW5g . 
  
 I first heard the Thelma's attempt - and therefore it is the original for ME. I find it the most musically satisfying song on the entire album that is "heavily infseted with technically superiour sound". I do not think ("to think" = is to not know anything on the subject over here ...) that it is THAT lackluster in swing department either - YMMV.
  
 The first fault/RED carton in this vid is the use of the record itself - it is NOT what it is trying to present itself to be - namely DIRECT TO DISC recording/record. The original Sheffield LAB 2 http://www.discogs.com/Thelma-Houston-Pressure-Cooker-Ive-Got-The-Music-In-Me/release/1229176 is the Real McCoy - that is to say Direct To Disc that will never fail to make chicken skin on any person remotely still considered being alive. ST-200 http://www.discogs.com/Thelma-Houston-Pressure-Cooker-Ive-Got-The-Music-In-Me/release/3072422 is a re-release - made from analog tape also recorded parallel to the original direct to disc recording session. And it is tame/lame in comparison to the real thing - add on top of that usual yadayada about SQ on YT - and you have " 10 litres of vine; made from 1 litre of real thing and 9 litres of water & some sugar..." 



. 
  
And it STILL comes off that good.


----------



## ]eep

I heard quite an amount of hiss. Other than that it's a good pressing. I have a lot of new records that are a lot worse unfortunately. 

But did anyone notice the price-sticker? $3 in 2011?  Why am I never that fortunate on 2ndH lp's? I just bought some nice classical LP's, RCA living stereo but not the 'good' ones. Oh well, I shouldn't complain really, I still have 500+ 2ndH '70+80's records to clean. 

edit: well what do you know.... I saw the BB King flac come up on TPB just a moment ago.


----------



## Victorecho

Yeah you can't go too far wrong with Technics direct drive


----------



## GasMaskMan

]eep said:


> I don't know... there 's something fishy about that platter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Dang man, that looks sweet.


----------



## MuppetFace

This is the year I finally get back into vinyl. My poor record collection has been sitting in boxes---neglected and ignored---taking up an entire spare bedroom. 
  
 Ever since my college freshman days I've been enamored with spinning wax, much to the chagrin of my roommate at the time who thought me insane, perhaps justifiably. At the time I used a Sony turntable that cost $100 new (including the pickup arm and cartridge) from one of those megalithic electronic depots. When I entered grad. school, I likewise graduated to a Rega P2 with an Elys 2. After college I got a P7 and not long after traded up to a P9 with RB1000 and Apheta moving coil cartridge. 
  
 I still hold the P9 in high esteem, both in terms of its performance and from an aesthetic standpoint, even after hearing some turntables that cost significantly more. Over the years though my listening habits changed, so I ended up swapping out the Rega gear and focusing primarily on DACs. I've missed it ever since. 
  
 I've been fortunate enough to hear a lot of different turntables these past few years as well, though as always you can only glean so much when it's not your own setup. I've still got a few choices in mind though.
  
 This has been one of my all time favorite threads on head-fi to lurk in, so I'm looking forward to finally contributing by posting some pictures of whatever I end up getting.


----------



## bbophead

muppetface said:


> This is the year I finally get back into vinyl. My poor record collection has been sitting in boxes---neglected and ignored---taking up an entire spare bedroom.
> 
> Ever since my college freshman days I've been enamored with spinning wax, much to the chagrin of my roommate at the time who thought me insane, perhaps justifiably. At the time I used a Sony turntable that cost $100 new (including the pickup arm and cartridge) from one of those megalithic electronic depots. When I entered grad. school, I likewise graduated to a Rega P2 with an Elys 2. After college I got a P7 and not long after traded up to a P9 with RB1000 and Apheta moving coil cartridge.
> 
> ...


 
 May I recommend:
  

  
 O.K., it's not a P9 (it's an RP6) but "they" say the RP8 comes pretty close.
  
 Good luck in your quest.


----------



## MuppetFace

I'm actually considering the Rega RP40 anniversary turntable, as I know of a few places that still have some stock. I think it's pretty similar to the RP6.
  
 The Well Tempered Amadeus knocked my socks off, but I've heard some conflicting things about how easy it is to maintain (some say it's 'set and forget' while others say it requires constant readjustment...). The Kuzma Stabi S and Townshend Rock 7 are also high on my list.
  
 Of course there's also VPI and Clearaudio. Next to Rega I'm probably most familiar with their lineups.


----------



## bbophead

muppetface said:


> I'm actually considering the Rega RP40 anniversary turntable, as I know of a few places that still have some stock. I think it's pretty similar to the RP6.
> 
> The Well Tempered Amadeus knocked my socks off, but I've heard some conflicting things about how easy it is to maintain (some say it's 'set and forget' while others say it requires constant readjustment...). The Kuzma Stabi S and Townshend Rock 7 are also high on my list.
> 
> Of course there's also VPI and Clearaudio. Next to Rega I'm probably most familiar with their lineups.


 
 Hmm, I thought the RP40 was more of an RP3 but I don't really know.
  
 Had a hi-fi acquaintance trade in his recent purchase of a WT for the Kuzma.  Never asked him why.
  
 I've had springy TTs since the '60s and I'm really enjoying the solidity of the Rega.  It seems awfully UNfussy.  I could have probably bought an RP8 for the money I spent tarting up my RP6 with all the GrooveTracer mods that are available, but, no regrets.
  
 Look, Ma, no mat needed.


----------



## MuppetFace

bbophead said:


> Hmm, I thought the RP40 was more of an RP3 but I don't really know.
> 
> Had a hi-fi acquaintance trade in his recent purchase of a WT for the Kuzma.  Never asked him why.
> 
> I've had springy TTs since the '60s and I'm really enjoying the solidity of the Rega.  It seems awfully UNfussy.  I could have probably bought an RP8 for the money I spent tarting up my RP6 with all the GrooveTracer mods that are available, but, no regrets.


 
  
 Yeah, it's kind of hard to really gauge where the RP40 falls in their lineup, as it has the same brace and counterweight as the RP6, but a lighter glass platter than the RP6 and lacks the RP6's aluminum subplatter hat. However it also has a unique silicon drive belt that was apparently derived from their Naiad research, as well as a power supply custom tuned to each individual motor. I imagine the RP40's real weak point is its Elys cart, even if it's a special edition version of it. I suspect with a better cart it would be roughly comparable to the RP6, but that's just my guess.
  
 The RP6 is definitely the sweet spot in the current Rega lineup in my opinion.
  
 Recently I heard the RP10 with RB2000 and Apheta, paired with the IOS phono stage. It was a very impressive combo, though I wouldn't say it was necessarily better than my P9 from memory, for what that's worth. I really loved the aesthetics of the P9; to this day I think it's one of the most beautiful turntables ever produced. Personally though I'm fond of more "traditional" looking turntables with rectangular shapes or very minimalist designs. Some of these super-expensive models that look like miniature Parthenons or jungle gyms are downright hideous to me.
  
 If I recall it was Morbid Toaster who had the Well Tempered, but he found he had to keep fiddling with it, so he got the Stabi S. Not sure what the deal is there, as some folks say they've never had to mess with their WTs much, while others say they're really fussy. I think it's the golf ball tonearm that causes headaches for some people, though for me the tonearm is its primary selling point.


----------



## bbophead

muppetface said:


> >
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 As you might have guessed by now, I don't know the Rega aesthetic very well at all, but a friend of mine does and he's always lusted after a P9.
  
 Bingo on MT.  I briefly listened to his Stabi/Stogi/Dynavector at an Austin headphone meet in January and it sounded really excellent.  It was very smooth and lush to me but of course coming from a Rega/Ortofon 2M Black, what else would I say.


----------



## analogsurviver

muppetface said:


> Yeah, it's kind of hard to really gauge where the RP40 falls in their lineup, as it has the same brace and counterweight as the RP6, but a lighter glass platter than the RP6 and lacks the RP6's aluminum subplatter hat. However it also has a unique silicon drive belt that was apparently derived from their Naiad research, as well as a power supply custom tuned to each individual motor. I imagine the RP40's real weak point is its Elys cart, even if it's a special edition version of it. I suspect with a better cart it would be roughly comparable to the RP6, but that's just my guess.
> 
> The RP6 is definitely the sweet spot in the current Rega lineup in my opinion.
> 
> ...


 
 WTA is anything but " fire & forget " device. It is at the mercy of the monofilament (s) - and as the side that does allow for antiskating adjustment uses more/longer monofilament, it also stretches/sags proportionally more. So, if you do not play your TT for say a month, at least the azimuth WILL be changed - and off - making regular check ups unescapable. 
  
 Current crop of the WTA has finally come of age - original was a highly resonant structure, regardless what manufacurer might say. 
  
 I would never choose it as a single/only arm; but I use it for more than a quarter of a century. Paired with a cartridge that suits it well, it can be quite magical - enough to take constant re-adjustments for granted.
  
 Upper Regas are very good, I have yet to hear the Apheta - it may well be the best thing coming from the Rega planet.


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> Upper Regas are very good, I have yet to hear the Apheta - it may well be the best thing coming from the Rega planet.


 
 Art Dudley didn't seem to care for it, if that means anything.
  
 http://www.stereophile.com/phonocartridges/1206rega/


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Art Dudley didn't seem to care for it, if that means anything.
> 
> http://www.stereophile.com/phonocartridges/1206rega/


 
 I've read that review and all but forgot about it.
  
 Reviews are double edged sword - always have been.  Reviews are at the most comfortable at describing something that has proven itself over time - and its subsequent  incremental improvements. When faced with bold new venture in uncharted land, reviews ( and people writing them ) are confronted with all kinds of prejudices, feel of uneasiness of having zero backing on the words put in (real or cyber) ink , etc. Most of the reviewers do not have sufficient technical background and are strictly reporting their subjective impressions.
  
 That is my gripe with the "anglo-saxon" ( UK, USA ) approach to reviewing audio. Price/performance (UK) or bang for the buck (USA) are almost always undisputed king - not only #1, but #0 in most cases. This kind of reviewing, although undoubtedly helpful to the consumers at large,  stifles and constricts the bold new cost-almost-no-object ventures in achieving something beyond status quo. I could have brought you all to tears describing what has been attempted in the past regarding phono cartridge stylus suspension(s) - suffice to say, real world has forced most manufacturers to stick to the proven guns, despite their awareness there are *potentialy* better solutions out there. Readers of these analog pages know very well I am VERY critical about Rega - yet, the Apheta might well be the exception confirming the rule.
  
 Art Dudley *did* point out the virtues of Apheta design - now let's hope the Apheta Mk2 will retain its superiorities while taming the shortcomings noted.
  
 I will end with the musical example I feel needs no explaining : ( I like them better poisonous than bland ...)


----------



## bbophead

Interesting take on Stereophile and I presume TAS as well.
  
 In contrast, I feel these rags mostly pander to people with a little too much cash on hand.  Art Dudley does review expensive equipment but at least he can parse the sound out in a fairly meaningful way unlike most reviewers who require one to read between the lines with a fine tooth comb.  Please excuse the tortured metaphor.
  
 There seem to be countless reviews of mega buck rigs for the big money folks but precious little for the rest of us with sub 1K to spend.  Further, often enough the big rigs are a considerable distance from state-of-the-art.
  
 I'm all for advancing the technology of turntables but I won't be buying any of that stuff nor will most of the rest of us.  
  
 I wish there was a magazine that addressed the desires of the many rather than the lust of the few.
  
 Are there meaningful reviews of inexpensive high fidelity TTs anywhere in Europe/Asia?  Or, maybe in your world, there is nothing sub 1 to 2K that won't carve up the wax and dump it on the floor.  After a year of Rega ownership, I wouldn't trade it straight up for a number of more expensive rigs but then one of my criteria for turntables is simplicity and ease of use.  (so far, my records seem to be holding up quite well while sounding good)  That way, I listen to more music rather than fiddling with equipment but that's probably just me and a whole lot of other people.
  
 Please excuse me if I have misinterpreted your views.


----------



## ruthieandjohn

As a true auto audiofile, I eschew the in-car lossy MP3 and satellite radio music sources in favor of... VINYL!


----------



## bbophead

Good one!  This way you can eschew surface noise.


----------



## Silent One

muppetface said:


> *This is the year I finally get back into vinyl.* My poor record collection has been sitting in boxes---neglected and ignored---taking up an entire spare bedroom.
> 
> Ever since my college freshman days I've been enamored with spinning wax, much to the chagrin of my roommate at the time who thought me insane, perhaps justifiably. At the time I used a Sony turntable that cost $100 new (including the pickup arm and cartridge) from one of those megalithic electronic depots. When I entered grad. school, I likewise graduated to a Rega P2 with an Elys 2. After college I got a P7 and not long after traded up to a P9 with RB1000 and Apheta moving coil cartridge.
> 
> ...


 
 Very exciting to read about your move this year!


----------



## ProcessJunkie

Rega RP1 and some cheap Audiolab Monitors


----------



## bbophead

I likee!
  
 Maybe an overhead shot of the RP1 would be even cooler.  I'm a Rega fan.  Grados?  Phono pre?  Cartridge?
  
 That's what happens when you post.


----------



## ProcessJunkie

bbophead said:


> I likee!
> 
> Maybe an overhead shot of the RP1 would be even cooler.  I'm a Rega fan.  Grados?  Phono pre?  Cartridge?
> 
> That's what happens when you post.


 
 I'll take better shots with my camera maybe tonight, this is was a instagram shot as soon as i got the setup re-organized.

 The Grados are a pair of SR60i's, and the phono is a Soundblaster X-FI HD and the cartridge/needle is the stock one that comes with the RP1. Far, far away from a audiophile setup, but i'll get there.


----------



## podeschi

I am addicted to turntables.


----------



## bbophead

Aww, man.  Only three?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Great looking set up!


----------



## ]eep

processjunkie said:


> Rega RP1 and some cheap Audiolab Monitors




Simple but stylish. I like it. 

I think I'm only somewhere in between you and Tedeshi. :blink: 
I only have 1 Clearaudio with 2 arms...


----------



## podeschi

bbophead said:


> Aww, man.  Only three?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks and they all sound different


----------



## bbophead

podeschi said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > Aww, man.  Only three?
> ...


 
 Of course they do!  They're different brands with different design goals, ya-da, ya-da.  You must have a lot of fun!


----------



## ]eep

Oh, about sounding different... I read the German magazine Stereoplay once in a while and I saw that they had soundfiles on their server of several cartridges. Some rather expensive, some halfway affordable. Its in German and the files are 24-48 wav (?? yes I know but anyway better than mp3).  Here are the files
Clearaudio Performer V2 (300 Euro, MM) 
Goldring 2300 (330 Euro, MM) 
Nagaoka MP-200 (400 Euro, MM) 
Audio Technica AT33EV (500 Euro, MC)
Grado Sonata 1 (600 Euro, MM) 
Ortofon 2M Black (650 Euro, MM) 
Clearaudio Concept MC (690 Euro, MC) 
Volpe Audio rosso nero (850 Euro, MC) 
Sumiko Celebration II (1.950 Euro, MC)
Kiseki Blue NS (3.000 Euro, MC)
Einstein The Pick Up (4.400 Euro, MC) 
Lyra Etna (6.000 Euro, MC)

I must say, listening with a headphone makes it quite difficult for me to discern any differences.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Oh, about sounding different... I read the German magazine Stereoplay once in a while and I saw that they had soundfiles on their server of several cartridges. Some rather expensive, some halfway affordable. Its in German and the files are 24-48 wav (?? yes I know but anyway better than mp3).  Here are the files
> Clearaudio Performer V2 (300 Euro, MM)
> Goldring 2300 (330 Euro, MM)
> Nagaoka MP-200 (400 Euro, MM)
> ...


 
 I have listened to a few - and agree it is difficult zo (z is NOT a mistake ...) discern any differences.
  
 It sounds like comopressed-to-death-digititis to me. Although 48/24 PCM is not anywhere near the end of the road, I sincerely doubt that _*playback*_ of these files originally recorded is  48/24 PCM. 
  
 I run across the same problem during the SQ tests with direct streaming of concerts I provide audio for. What the end user n the other side of the mouse gets to hear is a VERY pale shadow of the original - and is under no circumstances something to judge the SQ by. 
  
 They should have made 48/24 downloads available - this "player" torpedoes the very purpose they are trying to achieve. ANY cart in test should fare much better than this - so how on earth they are going to discern the differences among them ?
  
 All known such/similar available tests/downloads suffer from one crucial omission - they DO NOT provide reference level(s) and a test track to verify if the cartridge has been properly adjusted for azimuth. At random, a $ 100 cartridge that happens to have the perfect azimuth alignment with the arm used for the test, is going to sound better than say $ 5000 cart that is "off". Such tests should have been referenced to 1 kHz - equally loud at that frequency, azimuth adjusted for best possible result - only then would such tests truly be meaningful. Provided that they can at least be transmitted to the end user in at least 48/24 PCM.Players a la Stereoplay are plain not good enough for the purpose.
  
 That "0ff" can be VERY small - all serious azimuth buseniss happens within 1/3rd ( in word: one third ) of a degree and no mater how eagle eyed you think you are, eyeballing will just not do.
  
 With reference to Stereoplay - I remember the test (measurements) of a very high end ( if not TOTL ? ) Van den Hul cartridge that most obviously had its azimuth seriously out of whack. It is down to the policy of the reviewer : if it is "use the reference arm of choice and mount the cart as received from the manufacturer according to the supplied instructions" - all kinds of funny stuff can surface. If I were doing that test, I would have demanded another sample from the manufacturer - one just not write a review of say a Ferrari that obviously is steering to one side either.
  
 Or use an azimuth adjustable arm instead - noting why this had to be done.


----------



## ]eep

You are right about playback in 24/48. I checked what I was playing. I normally have 96 as fixed standard since it's my dac's limit. If I put my Musiland on auto is switches to 44 kHz. Not 48!:mad: I can't even tell what influence Windows XP trows into th equation (this should be nothing as foobar>usb XMos should bypass windows). But anyway; many variables in the *playback* system. 

But 96 (2x48) should not affect sound quality. From 48>44 does. Anyway; I never understood why those 'engineers' from the 80's and 90's have had the arrogance to think that they could digitally capture the sound quality from decent vinyl playback (digitally remastered LP's from the '80 and 90's sound terribly flat). And they still do. It is the same as assuming that the equasion TT+cart + phonoamp +ADC+DAC == TT+cart + phonoamp is true. I am not saying that the effect of TT+cart + phonoamp=0 but neither is the effect of ADC+DAC=0. And certainly not if you provide files in 24/48. 

I think providing these files is an exercise in futility, I just wanted to share for academic purposes.


----------



## dosley01

A little RSD blue vinyl giving my Scout the McIntosh treatment.


----------



## bbophead

Beauty!


----------



## Quinto




----------



## bbophead

Oooo, nice, big Music Hall.  
  
 Jelly.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Edit:  Arm rest looks dangerous, tho'.


----------



## Quinto

nahh..got used to it pretty quick ..here's from slight other angle..
  


 it's really not too bad


----------



## bbophead

Excellent, 'cause it only takes one not getting used to for the bad things to happen.


----------



## Quinto

bbophead said:


> Excellent, 'cause it only takes one not getting used to for the bad things to happen.


 

 Well, I don't drink, so that's a plus right there


----------



## bbophead

quinto said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > Excellent, 'cause it only takes one not getting used to for the bad things to happen.
> ...


 
 Not drinking is a plus?  Gak!


----------



## Eee Pee

That doesn't even make sense!


----------



## Quinto

eee pee said:


> That doesn't even make sense!


 

 but it does when you don't like the taste of it..


----------



## bbophead

quinto said:


> eee pee said:
> 
> 
> > That doesn't even make sense!
> ...


 
 Who said anything about taste?


----------



## Eee Pee

Way too many flavors and kinds and types to say anything about taste.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## Quinto

I drink water, tea and coffee, works for me mate..


----------



## bbophead

quinto said:


> I drink water, tea and coffee, works for me mate..


 
 All is fine.  Just don't over do and you won't get the jitters.


----------



## jibzilla

greyson said:


> That's why I said _had_ in the past-tense. Technics copycats are nothing new, though.
> 
> People like Stanton and Audio-Technica have been doing it for years.


----------



## ]eep

> If you have a large 45 collection I think technics just came out with a sl-700 recently.



I would rephrase that as: if you don't plan on playing any 12" LP's anymore. From a technical standpoint it's a good idea (i.e.: for DJ use) because a 7" platter has much less inertia and thus a faster speed-up time. And you can optimise the needles tracking angle better for 7" since you are never going to play a 12" on it. But from a hifi or practical standpoint...  it's a really tight-niche-product if you ask me. Or is it an april fools joke? Or a marketing stunt? I mean, really?


Biz proves once again he is the king of collecting everything from sneakers to records to toys, and now: Technics 45 turntables. These turntables, custom built for Biz have been in the works for a while, possibly even a few years. While they may have been new to the public, the scuttlebutt around the DJ set up is that he has been sitting on them since they were custom made for him in Japan, with a straight arm modification added in as well by another company. We’re not too sure here what the chance of Technics making these custom turntables really is though. There has been no word from the company that they will be anything but a one off, just for the Biz. Haters are gonna hate, and just like the backlash Biz has gotten from fans, celebrity diggers about some of his claims, there is no denying now that the Clown Prince of Rap has got some coveted gear in his possession and that the phrase “Nobody Beats The Biz” has never rung so true.


----------



## analogsurviver

Oh - I wish I never saw this. For me, it is the final and decisive nail in the coffin with _Technics _inscription on it.
  
 I DO understand that manufacturers have to make ends meet, that they are in buiness because of business and not because of proving the right cause .
  
 Technics did , more than anyone else, push the limit of the possible. If anyone of you harbour the notion of Technics being "an inferiour Japanese brand producing mass consumption plastic junk" - think again. And think HARD . Because your high pitched snobbery inclined nose is likely to get bloody after seeing the facts. In almost any audio category, Technics used to have a product there at least with rhe best of them; in quite a few, they were producing the pinnacle of the very best that was ever available. Just google what SE-A1 was/is - the list goes on, almost without an end.
  
 But turning scientific and technical supremacy in $ is another matter. As late as 1996, Technics introduced one of its best creations, the RS-AZ 6/7 casette deck.
 It is one of the handful of cassette decks capable of sound quality of which an average high heeled audiophile is absolutely unaware that so high SQ can be coming from cassette, let alone a Technics. Nakamichi "snobs" - it is up there, if not better - at least with the metal tape. And it DOES smoke anything else I have ever heard in the bass, including any reel to reel recorder ever produced.
  
 Its service manual has some 60 pages. There IS more electronics in this deck than on average in entire high end systems. It IS hard to align an analog recorder, it has to be done manually on the assembly line - to each and every sample. To sum things up - it is a reserch and development, materials and labour intensive product.
  
 Technics found, the hard way, they can sell CD players "with comparably to the RS AZ series deck _almost _nothing in it " much better than cassette decks. Despite cassette deck being tour de force design and CD player(s) being mere "also runs" in comparison.
  
 After all is said is done, I do understand why Matsu****a phased out the Technics name around Y2K. But disgracing the memory of the people that in the past did contribute so much to the state of the audio art by introducing the SL-700 with the _Technics _badge on it - that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 is a straw too far.


----------



## koolas

It's my latest acquisition, and its SL1210 + PP2i + Concorde Arkiv. These 15 vinyl buttons I stuck to the mat help reduce resonances and solve problem that most of my records are very far from being flat. This upgrade was around 5 euro, and it resulted in true improvement of sound quality. Basically wow/flutter went away, bass became more tight and controlled.


----------



## ]eep

Now thats a tweak i like. I use the same sticky bumpers as feet under my dac. Cost: €0.80. Only they are pretty tough/hard. I found some better rubber feet on Ebay that work much better as feet. 
I also have a Ringmat that does about the same thing. Only I prefer a clamp and straight on the perspex platter. 

The Technics story is a bit the general story of Japanese mainstream 'hifi'. It's like nobody is interested anymore in hifi since the introduction of the cd. Although it's more the introduction of bad sounding MP3 and the false idea that 'music is free'. 

Hey, and why can't you say Matsu****a (pronouced: matshushta) the mothercompany of Technics, National and Panasonic?  
Don't you just love being treated as a 5y-old. :rolleyes:


----------



## analogsurviver

koolas said:


> It's my latest acquisition, and its SL1210 + PP2i + Concorde Arkiv. These 15 vinyl buttons I stuck to the mat help reduce resonances and solve problem that most of my records are very far from being flat. This upgrade was around 5 euro, and it resulted in true improvement of sound quality. Basically wow/flutter went away, bass became more tight and controlled.


 
 This is a nice _attempt _to solve the record/mat/platter inteface - with 1210 in stock form, I can even believe it actually resulted in sound as described. How this can help at very far from flat records is something beyond my comprehension - it should make warped records even worse.


----------



## Eee Pee

Unless the warps fall between the dots.  Couple different attempts to place the record on the dots in a good place might help.  Maybe not.  I think they defy the whole purpose of the relationship between the platter and record altogether, so I don't get it, but to each his own.


----------



## ]eep

I don't think it helps but if he says it does who am I to argue that? It's always good to experiment and learn hands-on.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I don't think it helps but if he says it does who am I to argue that? It's always good to experiment and learn hands-on.


 
 Record/(mat)/platter interface is THE #1 requirement in analog record reproduction. It is an area really poorly understood, and that is because people just do not realize how SMALL vibration is actually happening during the process. 
  
 The maximum amplitude of the cutting is approximately 120 micrometers. That is VERY rarely encountered in practice; even the 90 micrometer levels are extremely rare in anything but top recordings. Most commercial releases are limited to about 70 micrometer - and yet more (over)prudent have been limitting _VERTICAL _excursion to below 50 micrometers.
  
 What is usually "forgotten" - the stylus has no problems in resolving levels _*80 dB*_ below that - calulate that and you are in the
  http://online.unitconverterpro.com/conversion-tables/convert-group/factors.php?cat=length&unit=17 
 world. No known real world execution of turntable can even start to dream about being that rifgid/stiff - in theory, it should obviously flex less than the minimum amplitude retrievable from the record. Nothing, no matter how $$$,  comes even close.
  
 And then placing a record on just a few points/dots/lines/rings should be good enough ? The objective is to retieve information _*CONTAINED IN THE GROOVE - *_not on the record. In fact, any other portion of the groove/record not in the contact with the stylus is an enemy. It can pick up acoustic feedback from the speakers, it can AND DOES ( acceleration in the groove due to modulation in the treble from say 5-10 kHz can reach/exceed 2000 G - even assuming effective mass of the stylus only 0.25 mg,  that makes the force acting on the record>mat>platter in the order of _half a kilogram _unsettle the platter during normal reproduction.) cause the platter etc to resonate due to stymulus from the stylus; etc, etc; all of which are ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE bigger effects than the minutest information contained in the recording in the groove - and these tiny signals are being masked due to these resonant  effects in the mechanical structure of TTs. In audiophile jargon - goodbye low level resolution, proper rendition of acoustic enviroment/soundstage, increase of ticks/pops - in short, records are capable of MUCH better resolution than normally heard/assumed. 
  
 By far the best solution is vacuum hold down system for the record. It opens a very nasty can of worms - with now zero friction/damping between the record and mat/platter, platter has to take care od the energy being dumped in it by the stylus. Only very few commercial designs have tried to tackle these sour grapes; much fewer still have been able to achieve a really good sounding result. 
  
 If all one is familiar with is say felt mat interface, it is akin to trying to swim on top of the water - without even getting properly wet. Points ( a la Transcriptors ), ribs ( a la Bang and Olufsen) , rings ( a la .... ) - none of them can support the record even remotely still enough, let alone offer the proper damping and energy removal. But as noted above, once this is taken care of, there is no longer any filtering of bearing noise ( one of the functions of felt mat ) - and one gets "the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth" - and the truth is not always the most flattering thing in the world...
  
 It can be done, but as you might have guessed, not cheaply . Once having lived with a well implemented vacuum hold down system, it is impossible to return to a non vacuum hold cdown TT - no matter what.


----------



## koolas

Yeah, right. Just try it an you will figure out how it does help records to put them on three dots. When you put record on three dots then no matter how far from flat your record is it always has exactly 3 points of support. The surface of record is not flat, but as you say grooves are in micrometer range, and the long hills and valleys on non-flat record are many times bigger than that. As an effect whole tonearm lifts on hills and falls on valleys, and stylus remains practically in the same distance all the time.

Honestly, what I did gain by doing this, was reduction of wow and flutter to a not (something that I can't hear), and then bass inter-modulation practically disappeared. In this configuration with Arkiv cartridge records sound very flat, and more modern ones sound mostly same as CD (yeah, mastering is crap). For example when I play soundtrack from Mission by Ennio Morricone, the compression is just the same sh** as on CD. However if I play some very old Russian records I inherited from my father, they sound amazing. There is a lot of pops and clicks on these old records, but dynamic range is just mind-blowing.


----------



## ]eep

And again I agree. That is why I really dislike felt mats etc. I think the better the interface with the platter is, the more information you will retrieve (said the ex-Linn owner :rolleyes. I did not choose my Clearaudio Performance for nothing. Thick matching (same sound velocity to prevent reflections) platter, clamp and magneto-ceramic bearing. 

Isolating the vinyl is an option though. Not a good option in my opinion, but it is an option that keeps resonant mass low, reflections much later and keeps the cartridge away from eventual magnetic platter. But in my opinion that is just shifting problems. Or, analogous to what you said, like trying to swim in the Dead Sea; very difficult when you float on top of the water when you cannot get your arm in deep to paddle. You become unstable.

I was just trying not to discourage koolas. He will find out sooner or later if he keeps on experimenting. And I was trying hard not to show my dislike for said DJ-TT. A DJ-TT has very different demands and the platter-vinyl interface is definitely not high on that priority-list. Just like creative 'free spirits' often have no patience for or understanding of physics.

[edit]
And what koolas said ^ is right (a plane is defined by 3 points), but... going uphill you increase styluspressure, and thus change the tracking angle and put the yoke out of optimal alignment from the coil/magnet. And going down is even worse. Tracking is worse and the stylus could damage the record bouncing around without support. I think flutter should be reduced by increasing the platter-mass combined with better contact. Wow will always remain on a warped lp; it's caused by speedincrease downhill and -decrease uphill. You cannot keep a steady stylus speed on a warped record unless you use a cartridge with powered wheels driving over the surface like a car.



> However if I play some very old Russian records I inherited from my father, they sound amazing. There is a lot of pops and clicks on these old records, but dynamic range is just mind-blowing.



I also have many old records, some from my father, some inherited from other family, most I bought myself. I also have many Melodia records. I like to play those old records with my Decca cart. But not all old records sound good. Some 10" from the '50 sound wonderful but others simply don't. Some mono records are amazing. But some need a woodglue peel cleaning to sound optimal. Like the Tchaikovsky record my dad played to death.


----------



## bbophead

If you have more than a few warped records, I see no reason to put up with that.
  
 This has gotten a lot of good feedback on the vinylasylum.  http://vinylflat.com/index.html
  
 Disclaimer:  I have never used one but if I had a significant number of warped records, I sure as hell would try it.


----------



## Eee Pee

Clamps and coupling.  Yay.


----------



## koolas

@]eep: Your theory may sound very convincing, but in practice matters what you hear. You can call me deaf, but what I hear is definitely not what you are describing. I can tell one thing, I heard wow without my mod, and I don't hear it any more with this mod - as simple as that and I don't need any theory to prove that what I hear is what I hear. I am an engineer my self, and I understand physics well, and what you say may sound like it makes a lot of sense, but probably the problem is that you model of this problem in a wrong way. When you choose incorrect model, then all laws you apply sound good, but they don't match the actual result. This is what happens in the world of DACs, where engineers fight with audiophiles. Engineers want numbers, measurements, and audiophiles want PRAT, a concept that engineers don't understand. The thing that engineers forget is that there is no set of measurements that can tell whether something sounds good or not, while audiophile will tell you that straight away using his ears. I also understand you got an expensive table with all the fancy stuff, and it is against your instinct to believe that something cheaper may actually sound close to perfect. I haven't heard your setup, so I don't know how better is is from my sl1210 with vinyl buttons mod, but my current experience tells me that that sl1210 sounds at least as good as CD with higher quality records, even if they are wrapped.


----------



## Androb




----------



## Quinto

androb said:


>


 
 Ahh a Dual ,my first decent TT I owned, very nice!


----------



## bbophead

Very nice looking Dual.  I would be proud of that.


----------



## Androb

quinto said:


> Ahh a Dual ,my first decent TT I owned, very nice!


 
  
 Cheers! It's my dads but I kinda taken over it for now until I get my own 
  


bbophead said:


> Very nice looking Dual.  I would be proud of that.


 

 Thanks! Dad got alot of turntables, but I guess this is in best shape. Although need some cable exchange


----------



## analogsurviver

androb said:


> Cheers! It's my dads but I kinda taken over it for now until I get my own
> 
> 
> Thanks! Dad got alot of turntables, but I guess this is in best shape. Although need some cable exchange


 
 I have a VERY ambivalent "relationship" with Duals - they are a strange mix of precision and sloppiness, put together more cheaply than does them good, yet more sucessful models do produce music quite well in the end.
 Their forte are the tonearms, particularly the top models qith the Q suffix, meaning they incorporate dynamic damping of the cartridge/tonearm resonance. They also tend towards the necessity to use VERY shallow cartridges, particularly favouring older Ortofon designs (FF/VMS/M series and LM series ) and have quite a range of the custom carts made by Ortofon, Shure and Audio Technica for them. Lack of VTA adjustment in most cases means most normal height phono cartridges will result in too low VTA and this is to be avoided.
  
 As you have noticed, audio cabling on Duals was perhaps the most sore thumb; replacing those cables with almost anything new should be an improvement.
  
 If you use Tasker C121 ( decent, at about 2 EUR /metre ) or Mogami 3106 ( much better, unless going to yet better, but FAR more costlier Van den Hul variations on the theme ) AND make *some kind of* DIY shielding of the wires from the tonarm itself that are soldered to PCB to which output cable is soldered ), you will end with a low capacitance cable and much reduced hum pick-up - allowing Duals to show their positive side much better than with any cable they left the factory with. That humming/buzzing without shielding for the flying wires is really a deal breaker in better systems.
  
 And I wish you never have to learn what Dual Steuerpimpel 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 is !


----------



## Androb

analogsurviver said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Well this is the best turntable I heard (I haven't heard alot in action so can't really compare), but I guess maybe that would change then if I get to hear some more  And yea the cables are pretty cheap. No real quality put in there!
  
 But otherwise it seems to sound quite solid, it's fun atleast listening to it  It has one of the Ortofons you speak of, an older model though. Think dad might have bougt it over 10 years ago +-!


----------



## analogsurviver

androb said:


> Well this is the best turntable I heard (I haven't heard alot in action so can't really compare), but I guess maybe that would change then if I get to hear some more  And yea the cables are pretty cheap. No real quality put in there!
> 
> But otherwise it seems to sound quite solid, it's fun atleast listening to it  It has one of the Ortofons you speak of, an older model though. Think dad might have bougt it over 10 years ago +-!


 
 Duals can be loads of fun, provided they sit on a decent support - their suspension/isolation no match for say AR/Thorens/Linn type of suspended turntable. 
  
 If you are satisfied with the sound, I suggest getting the spare stylus for that Ortofon; modern day shallow cartridges are very rare, more recent but discontinued nevertheless are Linn MCs ( Asak, Asaka, Klyde ) - but these are a bit pricey to use on the Duals and are too low compliance for the low mass Dual arms. You will quickly learn all vintage ORIGINAL Ortofon styli command quite high prices nowadays - and as supplies are getting ever drier, so are the prices getting ever higher ... - mostly only found at styli dealers, factory is out of stock for most models.
  
 All that said ( and taken care of ), Dual is a decent TT. It has one decisive advantage over almost anything else in this price range; provided that Ortofon cart is adjusted correctly in the arm, it will preserve the vinyl for the future.
 I have yet to experience top models ( Q suffix ) in the long run; these are reportedly capable of stunningly good sonics as well.


----------



## Androb

analogsurviver said:


> Duals can be loads of fun, provided they sit on a decent support - their suspension/isolation no match for say AR/Thorens/Linn type of suspended turntable.
> 
> If you are satisfied with the sound, I suggest getting the spare stylus for that Ortofon; modern day shallow cartridges are very rare, more recent but discontinued nevertheless are Linn MCs ( Asak, Asaka, Klyde ) - but these are a bit pricey to use on the Duals and are too low compliance for the low mass Dual arms. You will quickly learn all vintage ORIGINAL Ortofon styli command quite high prices nowadays - and as supplies are getting ever drier, so are the prices getting ever higher ... - mostly only found at styli dealers, factory is out of stock for most models.
> 
> ...


 
 Ah good point. Although I won't do any bigger changes on it, and I think dad has some more cartridges for it so I think he's set for a couple of more years  Isn't the needle replaceable btw? Could stack up on those to lower the price instead of getting more cartridges?
  
 I am thinking of buying my own TT this or next year tho. Some Pro-ject or Rega I guess!


----------



## analogsurviver

androb said:


> Ah good point. Although I won't do any bigger changes on it, and I think dad has some more cartridges for it so I think he's set for a couple of more years  Isn't the needle replaceable btw? Could stack up on those to lower the price instead of getting more cartridges?
> 
> I am thinking of buying my own TT this or next year tho. Some Pro-ject or Rega I guess!


 
 Stylus = Needle - and it is replaceable. True that stylus is cheaper than entire cartridge - but that can mean cartridge can become next to worthless if there are no replacement styli left.
  
 Ortofon stopped production of these styli ages ago and supply is now definitely limited. Some claim the M20E Super to be the best Ortofon - ever. In the right arm ( low effective mass, good bearings, etc = Dual quality and up ) and into the proper electrical load, it can sound amazing. In absolute terms, not just relative to the price.


----------



## Androb

analogsurviver said:


> Stylus = Needle - and it is replaceable. True that stylus is cheaper than entire cartridge - but that can mean cartridge can become next to worthless if there are no replacement styli left.
> 
> Ortofon stopped production of these styli ages ago and supply is now definitely limited. Some claim the M20E Super to be the best Ortofon - ever. In the right arm ( low effective mass, good bearings, etc = Dual quality and up ) and into the proper electrical load, it can sound amazing. In absolute terms, not just relative to the price.


 
 Oh haha didn't knew it was called that 
  
 Ah ok, well dad changed needle once on it I think, not sure if he have any more tho.


----------



## platoo168

analogsurviver said:


> Generally, I am not fond of the rim weights, but this design once for a change makes some sense - it is acrylic or some similar material ? It is the nicest variation on the theme I have seen so far.
> 
> Still, I prefer vacuum to flatten my LPs. After I first experienced with Versa Dynamics tables, I knew one day I will have to get some vacuum suction device. It uses air pressure to press your record against the platter, flattening it in the process. Not with a couple of kg of force for the rim/clamp, but approx 250 kg due to vacuum and atmospheric pressure difference !
> 
> ...


 
  i have one of this audio-technica stabliser but with out the vacuum  i dont know how do i get it to work.  try to connect to other vacuum but does not suck the record.  already tried to rotate the valve with no success..  can you help give some pointer,  do you have manual?
  
 thx


----------



## analogsurviver

platoo168 said:


> i have one of this audio-technica stabliser but with out the vacuum  i dont know how do i get it to work.  try to connect to other vacuum but does not suck the record.  already tried to rotate the valve with no success..  can you help give some pointer,  do you have manual?
> 
> thx


 
 It is a !"#$%&/()=?* ( a curse more juicy than anything possible in English ) to get it right. It has to be completely disassembled, cleaned and reassembled with the proper care to eliminate all the leaks possible - which is Mission ( Next to ) Impossible. The two valves can not be interchanged, you have to work with extreme caution - damage any rubber seal or part(s) in the valve(s) proper - game over. 
  
 I will be uploading the manual and "service manual cross-section cutout" to the vinyl engine library shortly. However, the greatest Catch 22 is the rubber treatment/sealant/whatever chemical agent that allows the ruber seal rings in the contact with the vinyl to hold the vacuum for the required time - one side of the LP. I have seen AT 666 treated like that for sale on the German ebay - at approx EUR 300. I can tell you, as steep as this might sound at the first glance - IT WAS CHEAP !!! The seller claims vacuum holds longer than 10 (or was it 15 ? ) HOURS after his magic whatever. That means that refurbished/treated AT 666 holds vacuum MUCH better than when it was new - let alone the typical sample you can get off ebay. Ask yourself one simple question - would you be selling it if it performed flawlessly as intended ?
  
 It is one hell of a lot of work, time and trial and error methods involved - and I can understand that seller to refuse to disclose what agent he uses in order to get AT 666 up and running better than new.
  
 AT 666 and the surface of the side of  record that comes in contact to it HAS TO BE KEPT SCRUPOLOUSLY CLEAN - or it will embed the dust particles into vinyl permanently, leading to increased noise and in worst case, even skipping. It is best used on MASSIVE platters - and even then, it will still generally add some metallic coploration to the sound. For some reason, it does work rather well with the Technics SL 1200 - with the VTA adjustment ALLLLL the way up ...
  
 I have not given up completely on the AT 666 because of all of the above - yet. But it is inconvinient and hard to use as hell. And I have yet to find that rubber treatment that would seal well and not be leaving residue on surface of the vinyl ...


----------



## longbowbbs

I met a new friend at Axpona.....


----------



## Silent One

Is that MF?


----------



## longbowbbs

silent one said:


> Is that MF?


 
 Yes....He was a very funny and gracious host. I attended his Turntable setup clinic.


----------



## Silent One

> Originally Posted by *longbowbbs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> Yes....He was a very funny and gracious host. I attended his Turntable setup clinic.


 
 I always wanted to attend one of his.


----------



## analogsurviver

silent one said:


> I always wanted to attend one of his.


 
 I watched his DVDs on the subject. Nothing new to me.


----------



## longbowbbs

analogsurviver said:


> silent one said:
> 
> 
> > I always wanted to attend one of his.
> ...


 
 It was as much performance as information. There were probably 100 people in the room. It was classroom theater style seating and he was on the stage. They had a very high end video camera and Operator filming and projecting close ups on the big screen. Imagine the stylus tip 5 feet high! Very cool.


----------



## analogsurviver

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> It was as much performance as information. There were probably 100 people in the room. It was classroom theater style seating and he was on the stage. They had a very high end video camera and Operator filming and projecting close ups on the big screen. Imagine the stylus tip 5 feet high! Very cool.


 
 With MF involved, performance is unavoidable. I hope information was decently thorough.
  
 Hi end camera etc to allow the students to see the stylus from their classroom seats i$$$ the only problem...
  
 No need to imagine stylus tip 5 feet high - I am accustomed to look to normal TV screen size monitors for stylus orientation, VTA, etc - from Benz Micro Switzerland, where I used to work . 20" or so diagonal monitor(s) with lines for each degree of VTA for checking each and every sample is not only cool, but above all -
 useful and absolute necessity.
 Although it can be all done under stereo microscope(s) I own, it is much less strain on the operator with more elaborate and easier to use dedicated optical equipment.
  

 The very business end of the Audio Technica ML150 OCC Micro Line stylus -
 the small scanning radius is 2.5 micrometers


----------



## longbowbbs

analogsurviver said:


> The very business end of the Audio Technica ML150 OCC Micro Line stylus -
> the small scanning radius is 2.5 micrometers


 
 Nice!


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> silent one said:
> 
> 
> > I always wanted to attend one of his.
> ...


 
 I should hope not!  I believe they're aimed at the amateur.


----------



## ]eep

Wow, a diamond cloud. 



> You can call me deaf



Well, that is exactly what I was not saying. I was trying to reason to understand what I read. As in; thinking out loud what this meant:


> Basically wow/flutter went away, bass became more tight and controlled.



You were speaking about wow/flutter. Wow =| flutter. 



koolas said:


> @]eep: Your theory may sound very convincing, *but in practice matters what you hear*. You can call me deaf, but what I hear is definitely not what you are describing. I can tell one thing, I heard wow without my mod, and I don't hear it any more with this mod - as simple as that and I don't need any theory to prove that what I hear is what I hear. I am an engineer my self, and I understand physics well, and what you say may sound like it makes a lot of sense, but probably the problem is that you model of this problem in a wrong way. When you choose incorrect model, then all laws you apply sound good, but they don't match the actual result. This is what happens in the world of DACs, where engineers fight with audiophiles. Engineers want numbers, measurements, and audiophiles want PRAT, a concept that engineers don't understand. The thing that engineers forget is that there is no set of measurements that can tell whether something sounds good or not, while audiophile will tell you that straight away using his ears. I also understand you got an expensive table with all the fancy stuff, and it is against your instinct to believe that something cheaper may actually sound close to perfect. I haven't heard your setup, so I don't know how better *is is* from my sl1210 with vinyl buttons mod, but my current experience tells me that that sl1210 sounds at least as good as CD with higher quality records, *even if they are wrapped*.



I so agree with that: if you start with the wrong assumption perfect logic will unequivocally lead you to a faulty conclusion. Logic 101. But maybe you should be a bit more accurate in your phrasing. Why would you wrap on your turntable while playing?  
English is my third language but I guess you are sloppier than I am, please take some pride in correct spelling so us foreigners get a good example.

About my TT; I havent always had this, I started with the same Dual 505 up ^. And I did a lot of mods on it. That's why I am trying to encourage you to keep experimenting. But I guess in 20 years you will probably have a very nice and comfortable TT as well (at least I hope so).
And why do you think I use a NOS DAC? It's ridiculously cheap (quite the opposite end of the price-spectrum from my cartridge at €150), it's oldschool, doesn't measure all that well at all, but it sounds very natural (no pre-ringing). You may call it PRAT (which I think is a slightly abused term by the likes of Linn and Naim, or was it Martin Colloms from HFN&RR?). I call it accuracy in the time domain (phase), or naturalness in audiophile terms. Vinyl is very good at that.


----------



## Silent One

longbowbbs said:


> analogsurviver said:
> 
> 
> > The very business end of the Audio Technica ML150 OCC Micro Line stylus -
> ...


 
 Indeed. I'm reminded of a fighter jet _punching _through the clouds!


----------



## koolas

]eep said:


> And why do you think I use a NOS DAC? It's ridiculously cheap (quite the opposite end of the price-spectrum from my cartridge at €150), it's oldschool, doesn't measure all that well at all, but it sounds very natural (no pre-ringing). You may call it PRAT (which I think is a slightly abused term by the likes of Linn and Naim, or was it Martin Colloms from HFN&RR?). I call it accuracy in the time domain (phase), or naturalness in audiophile terms. *Vinyl is very good at that*.




Absolutely true  My gf does not seem to see difference between digital and vinyl though...

Also I think the biggest problem now is that all new records seem to be badly mastered, and really good ones I have are very old and not in the best shape...


----------



## Silent One

bbophead said:


> analogsurviver said:
> 
> 
> > silent one said:
> ...


 
 Oh, there's plenty of TT experts out here I could learn from. In fact, some are just right _down the street_...professionals and enthusiasts. No no, my interest is of social and entertainment nature. Who doesn't like attending yet another Dog & Pony show?


----------



## Silent One

koolas said:


> Absolutely true
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 To protect consumers - collectively we've a lot of clout but little organization - I wish the recording industry had to adhere to well placed standards and ensure a quality recorded and mixed medium. 





 Y-e-a-h, I know...so many music buyers are indifferent and couldn't care less. But we need to push (March?) for what we want!


----------



## Eee Pee

Check this craziness out: 
  
 http://www.spin.com/articles/jack-white-lazaretto-ultra-lp-hologram-vinyl-details/
  
 Read the article too.


----------



## Anavel0

eee pee said:


> Check this craziness out:
> 
> http://www.spin.com/articles/jack-white-lazaretto-ultra-lp-hologram-vinyl-details/
> 
> Read the article too.


I'm not a huge Jack White fan, but man that's pretty cool.


----------



## ]eep

I still can't figure this out, Analogsurviver...


> And I wish you never have to learn what Dual Steuerpimpel is !



What is tax acne? Or is it drive zits? :confused_face_2: 

To be honest about recording quality, I think most releases are on average better than 30y ago. It's just that the highlights from the analog era were just that good. But there was also a lot of rubbish, especially pressings. I remember the cheap Spanish (or Mexican?) pressings that had cheap recycled vinyl (reggea!) on masterplates that had been used for too long. Not to mention the awful, flat 'digital recording', 'digitally remastered' ( .../messed up) lp's from the 80's. But on the other hand, there's the loudnesswar that hasn't completely passed by vinyl.

Ok, and then I read/saw this: 


> absolutely zero compression used during recording, mixing and mastering






eee pee said:


> Check this craziness out:
> Video
> Read the article too.



That's no crazyness, that's genius! He's standing there just like a little kid in a candystore but when he speaks he doesn't just talk but actually says something not everyone is aware of. 

But those are not the easiest features to incorporate. I mean; how do do cut 2 grooves that merge just at the right time without having the needle jump out of the groove? You need some pretty nifty modern age servo technology for that. 

And all that technology on a 180g record I would expect a real pricepremium... but it's just $20! :blink:

Edit: only shipping is $16.75 to NL. Rather expensive. As always.  Fortunately it's €27 all in which I can afford as an impulse purchase. I just hope first class package doesn't get the DHL treatment.


----------



## Eee Pee

I do wonder about anti skate going from inner groove to outer groove. Though not much as my VPIs both use the wire twist method…


----------



## dosley01

I wonder if all that fun stuff screws up the actually sound quality.  I didn't find Blunderbuss to be all that great sounding so I'm really not expecting all that much from Lazaretto. But I'll still probably buy a copy just because it's pretty cool. 
  
 I will NOT be playing the label though, no thanks.......


----------



## ]eep

> do wonder about anti skate going from inner groove to outer groove.



No. Thats dependant on geometry and not on the direction of the groove. The platter will still move clockwise and the pressure on the outside groovewall will stil be greater. 


> I will NOT be playing the label though, no thanks.......



Oh, who cares I'm just going to bust up my €5000 cart.... :rolleyes:

But... that depends... I think the clip isn't telling the whole story. Is the label in the vinyl, like a picturedisk, or is the groove made up of (treated) paper? The former would not be a problem (the clear vinyl wouldn't sound as good though).The latter I would not burn my fingers on.


----------



## koolas

He says "no compression" hurrah  Need to acquire this LP


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I still can't figure this out, Analogsurviver...
> What is tax acne? Or is it drive zits?
> 
> 
> ...


 
 OK, consider yourself lucky as you were obviously blessed with whatever Dual Steuerpimpel you were stuck with, it was still working as it should have. Just Google this "pimpel" - it governs the overall performance od the Dual automatics and without its PRECISE action one is basically stuck where the  sun never shines...
  
 Regarding the sound quality of the recordings themselves, and vinyl mastering ( VERY different thing than mastering as we know it in the digital age ), I agree  with you on the level of quality on the average. There were craptastic LPs even in the golden age of analog - but there were absolute stunning examples that still have not been surpassed. To be blunt : I started doing my own recordings because during early stages of my development of Technics linear trackers it became painfully obvious the weakest link are - recordings themselves. Decca/Philips/EMI/Mercury Living Presence/RCA /etc - a scant fraction of a percent  have not been subjected to compression, limitting in the bass, manipulations I find inexcusable ( you can count 99,99% of operas recorded with SINGERS as GIANTS, overpowering the orchestra all the time - NOTHING of this when listening to a live performance ; or RUBINSTEIN and orchestra .), count then vinyl mastering
in-a-less-than-stellar-way, shoddy off center pressing on dubious quality vinyl, shrink wrap  leading to warped LPs, etc.
  
Regarding this "geniously crazy" LP: I agree it is a fun, bold idea, but I sincerely do hope so it is safe for stylus. Doing all these unnecessary stunt stuff
( it IS hard to make records as they should have been made in the first place, kind of like requiring your waiter to bring you the whole meal on two tight ropes strung between two skyscrapers oscilating with unharmonius beat - and he/she has to jump from one to another at a precise given spot - without the strawberry off the cake ending in your soup -
or worse, everything ending up as a _fleck - _so and so many metres below ... . 
  
My opinion it is a gimmick to draw attention/publicity for the author in the first place - and in that he succeded with flying colours. But I would approach such a record with a necessary caution - with a *scouting* , expendable stylus, not something rare/irreplaceable ( forget the $ for the moment ) . It is a testament what can be done by someone in a candy store who really has something to say - but inherently, the way he chose to deliver his massage can not be of high quality. It is the same thing as the question why mount a XY? horsepower * JET *engine on a car at the _Discovery _channel years ago:
  
Because WE CAN. 
  
Whether that fills any real world needs is another matter. 
  
With the quality of test LP records today ( and you can be 101 % sure music records are NOT being made better either  ), I would try to at least approach the quality once issued in the golden age. Trouble is, it has no fanfares a la "geniously crazy" record to grab the attention of the public at large 
- an it co$t$ like hell ...


----------



## analogsurviver

eee pee said:


> I do wonder about anti skate going from inner groove to outer groove. Though not much as my VPIs both use the wire twist method…


 
 No difference in antiskate force going normal or from inner to outer groove.


----------



## ]eep

I just realised... looking at the video: Jack White looks and acts just like Willie Wonka! Only the oompa loompa is a lot taller. 

About the steuerpimpel; got it now. Its German for driverthingie. Reminds me of a German song by Mike Krüger from 1980: 
_Sie müssen erst den Nippel durch die Lasche ziehen
 und mit der kleinen Kurbel ganz nach oben drehen
 da erscheint sofort ein Pfeil
 und da drücken sie dann drauf
 und schon geht der Arm hinauf_
(for those that don't speak German; tough luck )
I was talking to a friend who acquired a 505 that has just this problem. He wants to build it in an old '60 all in one radio cabinet (with the alnico speaker drivers, tubeamp etc). Excellent, I think we got the problem now.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I just realised... looking at the video: Jack White looks and acts just like Willie Wonka! Only the oompa loompa is a lot taller.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 My German is only good for reading - but had a 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



















 moment "reading" it - 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Good luck with the '60 all in one radio cabinet !


----------



## analogsurviver

After my posts, no one can accuse me of being a felt mat lover - but I thought it is appropriate to share this with you : 
  
 http://www.ebay.de/itm/Pizza-Slipmat-Plattenspieler-Plattenteller-Auflage-bunt-Filz-fur-Vinyl-/251519427547?pt=DE_TV_Video_Audio_DJ_Equipment_Teile_Zubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item3a8fb9e3db


----------



## Paul Graham

One of my "Other" Turntables, Haters gonna hate, But I love these babies! ( I have another three in storage. )


----------



## Eee Pee

http://www.dj-rooms.com/30-stunning-vinyl-animations/
  
 I liked two in particular.


----------



## ]eep

analogsurviver said:


> After my posts, no one can accuse me of being a felt mat lover - but I thought it is appropriate to share this with you :
> 
> http://www.ebay.de/itm/Pizza-Slipmat-Plattenspieler-Plattenteller-Auflage-bunt-Filz-fur-Vinyl-/251519427547?pt=DE_TV_Video_Audio_DJ_Equipment_Teile_Zubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item3a8fb9e3db] Pizza the Hut turntablemat



I was just cleaning some lp's I bought in the thriftstore. One was an RCA/Victrola Stravinsky's Petrouchka by Monteux, Boston SO. It's a purple label (not a living stereo unfortunately) but it's pretty ok. What, no it sounds pretty terrific. 

Also a true find. At first I thought it looked pretty dodgy, some Mantovani or James Last, but as I looked further I saw it was a performance Of Berlioz's Romeo and Juliet by, again, Monteux. It has no mention of the orchestra (London SO, probably not worth mentioning??) but the lp's looked mint (and they are; M-). At €1 a no-brainer. 

It's a Westminster Gold Series '70 reissue . 
I guess Juliet didn't exactly blow Romeos socks off...  I mean... whats with the socks? 




Turns out Westminster has a perculiar humoresque twist in classical albumcovers. Youve got to check out some of these...









































I guess Wagners Ring runs Ring around Tolkiens Ring in all round sexyness... 
I'm sorry, it's late. And I even haven't had a beer yet...


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I was just cleaning some lp's I bought in the thriftstore. One was an RCA/Victrola Stravinsky's Petrouchka by Monteux, Boston SO. It's a purple label (not a living stereo unfortunately) but it's pretty ok. What, no it sounds pretty terrific.
> 
> Also a true find. At first I thought it looked pretty dodgy, some Mantovani or James Last, but as I looked further I saw it was a performance Of Berlioz's Romeo and Juliet by, again, Monteux. It has no mention of the orchestra (London SO, probably not worth mentioning??) but the lp's looked mint (and they are; M-). At €1 a no-brainer.
> 
> ...


 

  
 The famous line by Calimero http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calimero  ( It is injustice, IT IS ! ) - how come all the Westminsters I ever got to see were even more dull than the supposed to be #1 in Dullnes of LP Jackets, the Eterna from now ex German Democratic Republic ? No idea about the sound/vinyl quality of the reissues shown, but never a dull moment with their cover art 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## analogsurviver

eee pee said:


> http://www.dj-rooms.com/30-stunning-vinyl-animations/
> 
> I liked two in particular.


 





.


----------



## ]eep

eee pee said:


> http://www.dj-rooms.com/30-stunning-vinyl-animations/
> 
> I liked two in particular.



The one that has 2 good points going for her?


----------



## Eee Pee

]eep said:


> 'm sorry, it's late. And I even haven't had a beer yet...


 
  
  




  
 Those album covers are great!
  
 And yes, two good points indeed.


----------



## bbophead

That was the best thing about those Westminister Gold re-issues.  The transfers were medicre, the surfaces noisy.  When I worked in a record/hi-fi store in the 70s, list price was $2.49.  They were probably the worst budget label available at the time, except for the covers.


----------



## ]eep

Maybe. I'm quite pleased with this one. The sound is very good and the vinyl is pretty ok. I bought another one at the same time that was much newer (1989 end of era?) that looked very nice. Just some dustfibres it seemed. Well... not. It has lots of crackle even after cleaning w Okki Nokki. And another Berlioz ( C Davis LSO) boxset had 2 records missing.  Don't ask, it was closing time. Turned out I already had 1 of the missing disks as a seperate issue. Anyway, I need to pay better attention rummaging through that thrift


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Maybe. I'm quite pleased with this one. The sound is very good and the vinyl is pretty ok. I bought another one at the same time that was much newer (1989 end of era?) that looked very nice. Just some dustfibres it seemed. Well... not. It has lots of crackle even after cleaning w Okki Nokki. And another Berlioz ( C Davis LSO) boxset had 2 records missing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 In vinyl record, cycling, electronic parts & similar shops that do require attention on the part of the buyer, remember there is always an ( most of the times invisible ) sign reading :
  
 BRING TIME WITH YOU !


----------



## ]eep

Seems I have another incomplete box. :rolleyes: Tsk tsk.
Stravinsky - Svetlanov: Le Sacre du Printemps / Symphony in 3 movements on Melodya. It was just one lonesome Sacre in an empty box. The Sacre is my favorite anyway and this is recording nr xx? Oh well, I don't really care since I only pay per LP and this one is one excelllent performance. Just one little scratch and a little surface noise. 
And on the topic of Melodya: it turns out I own a whole stash of them, mainly Tchaikovsky. A stack from my dad and a some more from my uncle, some are even double. Only they got the old budget Garrard (or Philips) grooveplough treatment. They sound pretty battered. I'll try the woodgluetreatment but I have no high hopes.

BTW, you should see my bicycles. No worn parts there, and spare parts in the cupboard. From vintage '90 carbon to the newest electronic gearchange. I can't help the lp's I buy 2ndH. The covers might wear a bit but the ones I bought new are all still as new. Thats also a big plus if you have a large collection and a better than average TT (properly set up that is!).


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Seems I have another incomplete box.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Melodiya LPs are THE BEST recordings out there - provided they are played by the very best gear available.
 Vinyl they are pressed on "leaves something to desire" - to remain on the polite side.  However, if and when played by de facto and not only on paper superb equipment, the noise, ticks, pops and other unmentinables can be separated from at times truly superbly played and recorded music so well as to  pass unmentioned. The most expensive second hand vinyls you are likely to find anywhere will most probably be on the Melodiya label.
  
 Great about your bikes - not in your league. Ditto for worn parts and spares in stock.
  
 I understand 2ndh lp situation. One can not do much if previous owner(s) loved their record(s) to (near) death .
 Even if one's TT is not better than average, proper setup goes a long way towards well being of the records.


----------



## bbophead

Too rich for my blood but at least it's "new".
  
 http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Melodiya/MELLP0027


----------



## Paul Graham

Thanks to my good friend Stu over on Hifiwigwam, Im now running a Nagaoka MP-10.
 Very impressed so far and Im afraid to admit this is my first "audiophile" cart. Ive always used good DJ carts up until now.
 Where the DJ carts I use are great sounding, The MP-10 really steps the game up and now has me hankering for more already!


----------



## bbophead

Very cool!  Congratulations.
  
  
 I lurves my Rega.


----------



## Silent One

bbophead said:


> Very cool!  Congratulations.
> 
> 
> I lurves my Rega.


 
 She's gorgeous!


----------



## bbophead

silent one said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > Very cool!  Congratulations.
> ...


 
 It's a male.  No offence taken.


----------



## parbaked

bbophead said:


> It's a male.  No offence taken.


 
 To be fair...it is impossible to discern unless you take a peek underneath and check out his junk....
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## Silent One

I'm with parbaked.


----------



## bbophead

silent one said:


> I'm with parbaked.


 
 YOU take a look.  I'll pass, thank you.


----------



## analogsurviver

paul graham said:


> Thanks to my good friend Stu over on Hifiwigwam, Im now running a Nagaoka MP-10.
> Very impressed so far and Im afraid to admit this is my first "audiophile" cart. Ive always used good DJ carts up until now.
> Where the DJ carts I use are great sounding, The MP-10 really steps the game up and now has me hankering for more already!


 
 Nice pics ! And finally a Nagaoka cart.
  
 Not totally sure whether it is possible to mix "low end" Nagaoka cartridge body with "high end" stylus, but MP50 or its present day version MP500 are really nice carts.
 The best bang for the buck was MP11 Boron - sadly very rarely available for sale nowadays.


----------



## analogsurviver

I find "assigning" gender/sex to things in English is an amusing business - like looking at an P51 Mustang WWII fighter and commenting: "..._ she _is georgeus ...! "
  
 OK, with RCA males and females one must be clear about - but I never thought a TT has to decide whether *IT *wants to be titled Ms or Mr. - LOL !  
  
 (And hopefully one does not come to idea to further categorize TTs as Ms, Miss etc - depending how many tonearm "partners" has that particular TT  changed in its lifspan ...


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> I find "assigning" gender/sex to things in English is an amusing business - like looking at an P51 Mustang WWII fighter and commenting: "..._ she _is georgeus ...! "
> 
> OK, with RCA males and females one must be clear about - but I never thought a TT has to decide whether *IT *wants to be titled Ms or Mr. - LOL !
> 
> (And hopefully one does not come to idea to further categorize TTs as Ms, Miss etc - depending how many tonearm "partners" has that particular TT  changed in its lifspan ...


 
 Good one!


----------



## ]eep

@Paul Graham
Nice pictures and a nice upgrade. Oh my, and there are so many more possible upgrades. Which is a good thing; more to discover. 
I was wondering what phonoamp you are using and if you can make any adjustments in capacitance. Capacity loading is quite important with this cartridge otherwise it will droop>1kHz followed by a severe treble peak >10kHz if capacitance is to low. It's almost like a treble control on a (non audiophile) amp. With around 600pF (extra 400 over cable+amp capacitance) it will be much more straight and no peak. Highs will end at around 15kHz though. This is something I have to check on my Yaqin MS22b for the Decca cart. But first I have to mod a TDA1541 dac and a TDA1543 dac.


----------



## Silent One

bbophead said:


> analogsurviver said:
> 
> 
> > I find "assigning" gender/sex to things in English is an amusing business - like looking at an P51 Mustang WWII fighter and commenting: "..._ she _is georgeus ...! "
> ...


----------



## Silent One

bbophead said:


> YOU take a look.  I'll pass, thank you.


 
 We ain't lookin' either!


----------



## tribestros

Got this thing from my girlfriend and was beat to hell. Wouldn't stop spinning, needle was broken, all the buttons were broke...took it to a record repair guy in Denton, and he had it for five months. Couldn't find anything on it, parts were a debacle. Apparently this is a table that didn't have a long shelf life. Repaired it to the best he could because it's solid aluminum and metal with a great suspension, and it sounds excellent. Model is PL-455. We could only get it semi-automatic even though it's supposed to be full. Apparently there's two motors and he couldn't find the parts for the motor in the arm; so it just goes back when the record runs out, but I have to move it onto the grooves. However, it cuts, speed is fully adjustable, great suspension and deadening, incredibly accurate and reliable speed...this thing is a monster. With repairs, $40 total.


----------



## bbophead

Man, you got a great deal!  Congratulations.


----------



## Paul Graham

analogsurviver said:


> Nice pics ! And finally a Nagaoka cart.
> 
> Not totally sure whether it is possible to mix "low end" Nagaoka cartridge body with "high end" stylus, but MP50 or its present day version MP500 are really nice carts.
> The best bang for the buck was MP11 Boron - sadly very rarely available for sale nowadays.


 
  
 Thanks AS  Im very happy with the results so far.
 I know from being an Ex-Club DJ that DJ carts are great for fast and deep bass, Scratching etc etc....
 But I'll try to explain my impressions now I'm using an "audiophile" cart....
 I feel its a more gentle sound, Yet far clearer, Its like an overbearing sound ( All be it an ok sound ) has been lifted to reveal something far more revealing but softer. Does that make sense?
 Also, I have been pondering if I can use a higher end stylus on the MP-10 Cart?!?! i.e., Keep the MP-10 body but fit an MP-100 Stylus?
  


]eep said:


> @Paul Graham
> Nice pictures and a nice upgrade. Oh my, and there are so many more possible upgrades. Which is a good thing; more to discover.
> I was wondering what phonoamp you are using and if you can make any adjustments in capacitance. Capacity loading is quite important with this cartridge otherwise it will droop>1kHz followed by a severe treble peak >10kHz if capacitance is to low. It's almost like a treble control on a (non audiophile) amp. With around 600pF (extra 400 over cable+amp capacitance) it will be much more straight and no peak. Highs will end at around 15kHz though. This is something I have to check on my Yaqin MS22b for the Decca cart. But first I have to mod a TDA1541 dac and a TDA1543 dac.


 
  
 Thank you for your comments.
 Im currently using a NAD PP1 phono stage, Its very basic with no adjustments, It has great bass extension and kind of dulls highs a touch, so at the moment its sounding "Balanced" to my ears compared to what I was previously running ( Stanton AL500 / Shure MC35S )
 I do plan to eventually upgrade the phono stage, But next on my list are a motor upgrade, Belt and sub-platter upgrade, A Thick wooden plinth for the RP3 to sit on and possibly an Arm upgrade, Either the RB303 or the Funk Firm FXII. And Im also planning to upgrade my Amplifier soon, The Cambridge Audio Azur 640A V2 is great but Im thinking something more refined either from Arcam or Rega.
 Then I'll look at my phono stage options.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Man, you got a great deal!  Congratulations.


 
 +1.


----------



## analogsurviver

paul graham said:


> Thanks AS  Im very happy with the results so far.
> I know from being an Ex-Club DJ that DJ carts are great for fast and deep bass, Scratching etc etc....
> But I'll try to explain my impressions now I'm using an "audiophile" cart....
> I feel its a more gentle sound, Yet far clearer, Its like an overbearing sound ( All be it an ok sound ) has been lifted to reveal something far more revealing but softer. Does that make sense?
> ...


 
 Your description of the difference in sound between DJ and audiophile carts certainly does make sense - as you climb up the "corporate" ladder, you will learn to appreciate ever finer differences and gradually learn the audio jargon to describe them with words. But I like and value such "uneducated peasant" ( meant in a GOOD way ) testimonials - because they are unrehearsed and sincere, without reference and desire to be in compliance with opinions and reviews found in the audio press. They are more help to the relative newbie than what old cats are likely to say. Have fun in the process & enjoy it ! 
  
 Nagaoka X0 and X00 are(?) (near?) equivalents - old(er) production single zero, new(er)  two zeroes. Can not 100 % confirm that - or interchangeability of the styli.  The wildest jump should be available ( provided it IS possible in the first place ) by using a 50/500 stylus on 10/100 cart - without having to pay the premium for the ( unnecesssarily ) more expensive cartridge. With some brands/models this is possible (Ortofon OM Series), with some not (Ortofon FF/VMS/M Series) - just because Nagaokas do look it should have been possible, it does not necessarily mean it in fact is. Any first hand experience on this welcome !


----------



## ]eep

Ow, I woulds have sooo many recommendations... I would leave the TT for what it is right now. It's quite ok. I think upgrades elsewhere would bring more (unless you are plague by loud thumping sounds from slamming doors or walking on a wooden floor). CA, Arcam or Rega look like pretty 'audiophile' amps but I would never buy them. About 25y ago I had a Cyrus II which was pretty good. At least I thought so. And I had a Linn Axis, what was considered an 'entry level' (then, there was no Basic yet). I had saved money for an upgrade and I wanted to buy an LP12. My dealer then (he still is  because he's so reliable and knows what I need/like) advised me against it even though he was a convinced Linn dealer. He suggested I keep the Axis and upgrade my amp to a tubeamp (Audio Innovations 500 that incl an MM tubephono). Man, was he ever right. Goodby hifi, hello music. Music got so much more involving, conveying emotion, the feeling of being there. And a tubeamp doesn't need to be as expensive as it was then (tubes were getting pretty exotic then). And, if that would be to expensive, I came across another option that I blew my socks off at a budget that is quite simply literally ridiculous in audiophile terms (half the NAD PP1). I could happily live with the T-amp that I have (not just any ) under my bed. It puts a lot of amps to shame, even the tubeamp I just discribed. Ok, not quite because it has no phono, heck, it only has one input. But if you want to improve on the sound yu will need to spend at least 4 figures at a brick and mortar store. 
But also a better (tube-) phono could improve the sound substantially. Of course it matters what you choose and if you can modify a unit if necessary.


----------



## Errymoose

My lowly RP1 with a good looking LP on it


----------



## bbophead

errymoose said:


> My lowly RP1 with a good looking LP on it


 
 Nice looking set up.  Bet it sounds good, too.


----------



## Delirious Lab

An update on my post from 3+ months ago: I just fitted this TT with new Linn springs and a JICO SAS needle... Now this baby is really singing!
  
 Quote:


delirious lab said:


> Just traded in the entry-level kit for an Ariston RD-11S.  Grace 747 tonearm, Shure M91ED cart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## bbophead

'Tis.  Good job.


----------



## Oregonian

Just swapped out my Yamaha P-520 to this Pioneer S50 - wanted to make my entire system (outside the Cerwin Vega speakers) all Pioneer.
  
 Looks good, sounds great.


----------



## Delirious Lab

Nice view from the top there!


----------



## Eee Pee

Yeah, some nice looking stuff going on up there.
  
 What kind of overall tone does the all Pioneer system have?


----------



## bbophead

All Hail, All Pioneer.


----------



## ]eep

I was more like thinking to make my whole system Audio Note, or 47 labs, but I sold my sole Audio Note and I have to start al the way from the beginning. So I put it out of my head. 

This time I took my time last wednesday and loooked through all boxes of classical albums at the thriftstore and them a thourough inspection this time. I found some very nice albums, 10 in total at €1 a piece. All in fine condition. The funny thing is the 'van Beinum, Concertgebouworkest' is a local recording but the album is made in the US. It has a very old thick cardboard sleeve and is in very good condition. The Dave Brubeck just came in as I was almost finished. Jazz is particularly hard to find, especially in this condition and this good.

Sorry I forgot the TT in the picture.


----------



## Bugler

This is my ReVox B795 I bought in the 80's with a new Grado Gold. Awesome turntable


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> I was more like thinking to make my whole system Audio Note, or 47 labs, but I sold my sole Audio Note and I have to start al the way from the beginning. So I put it out of my head.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Nice haul at a nice price!


----------



## bbophead

bugler said:


> This is my ReVox B795 I bought in the 80's with a new Grado Gold. Awesome turntable


 
 I have to admit that I'm surprised it still works.  We seemed to have problems at the shop I worked at back then with the new ones.  Beautiful.


----------



## Hijodelbrx

Used to own a B791 (the 795's big brother!). A long time ago. It was my 1st 'serious' audio purchase. Cool to see one still getting some love! Big and heavy, she was a beast!


----------



## analogsurviver

Revox TTs really were oddballs. Back in the day, Ernst Benz of then Empire Switzerland was modifying them for the use with MC cartridges, particularly the Empire MC-1000, after hearing one of Revoxes fitted with MC-1000 at an audio show in US and sounding anything like it should have.
  
 Originally, this super light plastic tonearm is meant for high compliance cartridges. It works OK with them. Benz first replaced the injection molded plastic arm with one milled from a solid block of aluminium - better, but not there yet. Next came milling out of solid brass - this was finally a good match with the MC-1000. Benz also treated the ringing platter, etc, etc - bringing out far better sound than usually associated with Revox TTs. Part of the package was also a propriety record clamp.
  
 Revox arm is among the most demanding to adjust for "anything". No VTA, no azimuth, finnicky to the max, nightmare for changing the cartridge, cartridge kit costing way too much back in the day, let alone now, etc, etc.
  
 In operation it is OK if and when playing records that are within tolerances according to the various/combined norms that were in effect back in the day and should have been adhered to to this day. But if and when a record with hole off-cener more than per proposed norm is attempled, it is likely to go completely berserk; sensors for tangency of the servo controlled linear arm movement/angular error operate both for deflection towards inside (all that is normally required ) AND outside. It can fall in the trap of lag, doing EXACTLY the opposite of what it should have been doing - and the sonical result is a complete disaster.
  
 The whole of the original stock Revox TT is THE WORST likely to be found in turntables ever - the structure has more mechanical resonances than their description could stand in a whole page of head-fi. Swiss engineering is generally praised for outstanding achievements, particularly in mechanics - this certainly is among the lowest points in this regard - ever.


----------



## Hijodelbrx

Yeah, the Revox was a handful but being a glutton for punishment my next turntable was the infamous Mapleknoll Athena! Notoriously difficult to maintain properly set up but....when everything was right it sounded glorious! Ultimately it got the better of me, that sucka was a beast on steroids! I ultimately ended up dropping over 3K on a Linn LP12/Ittok/Lingo in 1990 that I own to this day. 'Sfunny, I'd read that LP12's were fussy but mine's worked without a glitch for 24 years!


----------



## analogsurviver

hijodelbrx said:


> Yeah, the Revox was a handful but being a glutton for punishment my next turntable was the infamous Mapleknoll Athena! Notoriously difficult to maintain properly set up but....when everything was right it sounded glorious! Ultimately it got the better of me, that sucka was a beast on steroids! I ultimately ended up dropping over 3K on a Linn LP12/Ittok/Lingo in 1990 that I own to this day. 'Sfunny, I'd read that LP12's were fussy but mine's worked without a glitch for 24 years!


 
 Interesting indeed, your analog journey !
  
 Mapleknoll Athena is a variation on the theme of design(s) by Bruce Thigpen - culminating in the Eminent Technology ET2 arm.  I would have liked to see any of the Mapleknolls in flesh - in the end, they shoul sound glorious. I am not a Linnie by any stretch of imagination, but I do hold something analog from them in high esteem -
 the Ittok. It is GREAT arm for high compliance MM carts - about the best combo of rigidity vs relatively low effective mass with good overall performance. But you have to use the lightest possible mounting hardware (plastic...) to achieve low enough mass - something Linnies will have struggle with,  having been bombarded the whole life with allen key steel nuts and bolts, no less than three of these "anchors" at a time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## bbophead

Spinning tonight, space is the place.


----------



## Eee Pee

You gotta record cleaner?
  
 Liking the 2M Black?


----------



## bbophead

eee pee said:


> You gotta record cleaner?
> 
> Yeah, a NG that does both sides auto.
> 
> ...


----------



## Eee Pee

When I travel the country, can I put you as a stop?


----------



## Silent One

bbophead said:


> Spinning tonight, space is the place.


----------



## bbophead

eee pee said:


> When I travel the country, can I put you as a stop?


 
 You can.
  
  Warning:  Sometimes I play the speakers.


----------



## Eee Pee

Cool, cause I'm a speaker bro, too.


----------



## bbophead

Cool.  
  
 One day I'll hear a single driver speaker I like.  What's yours, assuming that's a single driver?  Fostex, Lowther?


----------



## Eee Pee

Fostex 108.   http://www.thehornshoppe.com/
  
 I have his number 74 and 75.  Long time ago.  Love em.


----------



## Bugler

@analog survivor. Have you ever actually owned one? My son has the same setup and we are both very pleased. I find changing cartridges pretty simple actually though I have no need for frequent changes. For sound quality it blows away my previously owned Thorens TD-160 and Yamaha PX-3. Incidentally the original post said to post a photo. If I would have known how bad it would have been trashed I wouldn't have bothered. I love it and that's all that matters


----------



## Silverprout

Hi,


----------



## analogsurviver

bugler said:


> @analog survivor. Have you ever actually owned one? My son has the same setup and we are both very pleased. I find changing cartridges pretty simple actually though I have no need for frequent changes. For sound quality it blows away my previously owned Thorens TD-160 and Yamaha PX-3. Incidentally the original post said to post a photo. If I would have known how bad it would have been trashed I wouldn't have bothered. I love it and that's all that matters


 
 First, I never actually owned one. But I did get to set up quite a few. Like on a production line scale - at Empire in Switzerland, trying to bring it to a at least decent level.
  
 The best I heard any Revox sing was with an Ortofon VMS 20E MKII - which is one of the very good/best high compliance carts that actually can track at or below 1.2 grams - and this cart thrieves in really low mass arms, Revox included. Of normal pivoted arms, Infinity Black widow and SME III are the ones that I remember playing well with this cart - way above what one might expect from a MM.
  
 Second, which should be BEFORE FIRST - I never, NEVER trash anyobody personally for anything - at least not intentionally. Revox TT is potentially very good - but it is poorly executed, simply because its designers seem never to ask the fundamental question what a turntable actually is. They  are FAR from being alone in this - you can add Thorens, Technics (among the most prolifirate culprits), etc, etc to this list - but Revox unfortunately does occupy the most flawed position on that list. Awareness that speed stability and freedom from rumble are only the solid base upon which to build good sonics of a turntable is relatively new one; it has not been applied to ANY commercially available record cutting lathe ( ! - where it matters even more; I have only rather recently seen a modification of the Technics SP-02 motor/platter that is most obviously trying to adress this crucial matter  ) - and TTs that do not ring as hell and can be lifted by a single person are rather recent thing - starting say from the original Oracle in 1979 or so. Revox TT is about the same age - yet there is not a single measure
 to keep it mechanically quiet. Gently tap the aluminium cover for the tonearm  while music is playing at reasonable level, preferably with headphones. You are not likely to find that sound pleasing - and then we can proceed to platter, subchassis, etc, etc. All these gremlins add distract from what Revox design should have been capable of extracting from the record groove; all of these are least bothersome with a high compliance cartridge that does not put so much energy back into the arm and record/platter - here, a Revox is acceptable.
 With any cartridge with remotely stiffer suspension, it wil really suffer. I have expressed the preference for high compliance cartridges many times; yet, outside vintage well preserved samples, there is no currently produced carts that fall in this category .
  
 Revox did try to adress the issue of decoupling the TT from structural feedback with a subchassis - which also makes for controls to be conviniently located on the main chassis and thus being next to inaudible when touched.  But there is a fly in this ointment; direct drive motors react violently to any movement around the axis of the main bearing - they will try to correct the speed to the reference point, which is the subchassis, or precisely said stator of the DD motor bolted to that subchassis. If the reference point is not stable enough, the superb speed of DD will suffer. This is why direct drive tables are for the most part built as mass coupled tables where
 decoupling/isolation is provided by the support and not the TT itself.
  
 After all this said and done, I have seen Revox and Empire modified Revox tables replaced by basic Rega models; they are not technological marvels, compoared to Revox can be regarded as downgrade by ? generations of engineering - yet they do basics rather well. I have expressed my crticism of Rega many many times - but it is all what it takes to best a Revox. Or Technics - and here I do not mean only the SL 1200 . There was one Technics design that adressed these matters _*TOO *_well to remain in production more than a year or two; it was embarassing the TOTL from Technics to the point they simply stopped the production; people did get a shock to hear a deck several times less costly from the same manufacturers that sonically demolished their flag$hip. Ebay is a VERY good indicator of designs proven over time; it is extremely unlikely to be possible to get the SL-M1 (either version, with S- shaped arm or straight P-Mount type) for peanuts; it is highly sought after by the connoisseurs and valued accordingly
  
 Ultimately, it all boils down to money. A properly executed Revox could have been a formidable machine - but
 it would most probably be too expensive to be competitive. Its basic idea, that of a user ( family, CHILDREN ) friendly TT is sound - if only it was better executed.
  
 The ultimate "insult" Revox related happened late 70s/early 80s at our electronic show of the day. After seeing a Revox ( it does LOOK impeccably built ), I ( along with almost everbody else ) could not have taken the "ugly duckling" Tesla NC 470 from then Czechoslovakia seriously. The thing was later also marketed as NAD 5120 ( and Lenco in better looking wooden plinth ). It took me "only" 3 more decades before I realized which one is ultimately capable of squeezing more from the vinyl record ...


----------



## Hijodelbrx

....my 'analog journey also included some amazing cartridges! The Mapleknoll really sounded wonderful when paired with the Garrott P77, an amazing MM. I also owned a Sumiko Bluepoint, Grado Sonata (never cared for it, surprising as it was so highly regarded). The best cart I ever owned, really mated with the LP12 beautifully, was the Ortofon MC3000. Loved that combo! Currently I'm using an Ortofon Kontrapunkt B.


----------



## analogsurviver

http://www.head-fi.org/t/719579/now-available-and-a-loaner-program


----------



## Hijodelbrx

Ol' faithful!


----------



## analogsurviver

hijodelbrx said:


> ....my 'analog journey also included some amazing cartridges! The Mapleknoll really sounded wonderful when paired with the Garrott P77, an amazing MM. I also owned a Sumiko Bluepoint, Grado Sonata (never cared for it, surprising as it was so highly regarded). The best cart I ever owned, really mated with the LP12 beautifully, was the Ortofon MC3000. Loved that combo! Currently I'm using an Ortofon Kontrapunkt B.


 
 Garrott P77 - yummy. I have a limited edition Kokaboora - unfortunately the stylus did not make to me in one piece 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  I am "reving up" to purchase SAS1 from Jico for it - but there is always something yet more enticing on ebay's It Is Now Or Never We Are Sorry For Your Wallet soap opera...
  
Sumiko Blue Point - on a next to eternal loan from a friend, used for about 5 or 6 hours - in a decade. Very precisely made cartridge with great channel separation  - but treble definitely not 2die4 . 
  
Never got to the level of Sonata within  Grado line, it puzzles me your reaction was as described. 
  
I got within a spitting distance of owning a MC 3000. After learning what kind stylus was on it and that it costs 2/3rd of the new cartridge to replace it once worn, I got cold feet. I have heard nothing but praise for Kontrapunkt B - but hated friend's MC 7500 - _with passion . _The most costly cartridge I have heard to not tick a single box
of my requirements/expectations in a phono cartridge. Could also be a bad sample - even if it was, it should have never left the factory in such a condition. Its stablemate OM 20 Super _*smoked*_ it - at 1/20th of the cost ... 
  
There is one Ortofon specially dear to me -  (T)MC 200(U) . Notorius for its minuscule output ( 0.1 mV or so ) - but provided with good amplification, gives a very _direct _sound - not something one usually asociates with Ortofon.


----------



## Paul Graham




----------



## bbophead

So nice!


----------



## bbophead

hijodelbrx said:


> Ol' faithful!


 
 Looks the business.  Cartridge?


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Looks the business.  Cartridge?


 
 Ortofon Kontrapunkt B.


----------



## Quinto

hijodelbrx said:


> Ol' faithful!


 
 C O O L


----------



## Neuromance

Here's my contribution to the thread


----------



## parbaked

neuromance said:


> Here's my contribution to the thread
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


 
 This shot gave me platter envy!!!!!


----------



## Hijodelbrx

bbophead said:


> Looks the business.  Cartridge?


 

  
 Like the man said, Ortofon Kontrapunkt B


----------



## bbophead

neuromance said:


> Here's my contribution to the thread


 
 Wowzers and a 12 incher to boot!!!  Even your bedroom system kicks some serious butt.  I'm jelly.
  
 Congrats on some really fine stuff.


----------



## Eee Pee




----------



## Silent One

eee pee said:


>


 
 WOW WOW WOW ! ! !


----------



## Silverprout

silent one said:


> WOW WOW WOW ! ! !


 

 ahahaaaaaahaaa !


----------



## Errymoose

More psychiatry...


----------



## Silent One




----------



## Redcarmoose

analogsurviver said:


> First, I never actually owned one. But I did get to set up quite a few. Like on a production line scale - at Empire in Switzerland, trying to bring it to a at least decent level.
> 
> The best I heard any Revox sing was with an Ortofon VMS 20E MKII - which is one of the very good/best high compliance carts that actually can track at or below 1.2 grams - and this cart thrieves in really low mass arms, Revox included. Of normal pivoted arms, Infinity Black widow and SME III are the ones that I remember playing well with this cart - way above what one might expect from a MM.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 The amazing thing about Hi/Fi and turntables are that we hear stuff a different way during the span of our lifetime. The equipment is really secondary even though the whole jest of this thread is that it is not. All of us have great memories of being 18 and hearing great stereo. At that time of our lives every good stereo sounded like 100K.
  
  
  
 I was lucky enough to have an amazing system built up at age 18. Four 15 inchers and 1.5 foot horn tweeters. Music was new and a thrill. It does not matter what kind of system you have because the perception of sound and music is only between the ears. Being young everything has a primal thrill as it is all the first time. There is the emotion, there is the rush. We end up chasing the same feeling 40 years later and only get a taste if we are lucky.
  
 When I see a kids system with a $100 table, I know what he is feeling when he turns it all on and I respect that.
  
  
  
 The best system I have heard in later life has been a VPI Hotrod with a 23K Clear Audio cart pushing threw an Einstein Phono pre and into a great RSA pre into tubes. Cost? I don't know, maybe 1/3 of the price it took me to build a house. In the end it does not matter.


----------



## analogsurviver

silent one said:


>


 
 Back in the days of my CD retail, I always tried to find the sweet spot of any customer... - then hitting with "more of the same".
  
 The amount of LPs pictured above is - insane. Still, as many times as there are LPs in those pictures, more interesting than a psychiatrist 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Redcarmoose

Caution, heavy bragging and fond memories of youth to follow.
  
  
  
  
  
  
 My Altec system I had at 18 could be heard from a city block away when turned up loud. The louder it got the cleaner it sounded with zero distortion. The only problem was that squads of police came by and not just to enjoy the music with me.


----------



## analogsurviver

redcarmoose said:


> The amazing thing about Hi/Fi and turntables are that we hear stuff a different way during the span of our lifetime. The equipment is really secondary even though the whole jest of this thread is that it is not. All of us have great memories of being 18 and hearing great stereo. At that time of our lives every good stereo sounded like 100K.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I agree with you - GREAT post.
  
 The trouble is, I am not after primal thrill anymore - hardly possible at my age. Yesterday, for example, I was recording one of the best amateur choirs on the planet -
 and DSD128 master sounds soooooooo superiour to anything off vinyl http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvjKQzkRfTo that is is ludicrous. THAT is what it takes on the verge of primal thrill  for me these days - witnessing the choir I became almost a part of from day one, coming together to to the level as envisioned by the conductor - even if and when the conductor has to exert Draconian measures to get the already some of the best singers up to the level "singing in his head"  .
 Why "only" _verge_ ? Because I saw it coming - I knew it is around ? corner(s), but CLOSE. It is this pushing the envelope that brings progress/breaktrough - and no one doing it, in any field, can be described as "normal", one has to be a "nutcase" if there is the desire to suceed in the end.
  
 Analog vinyl still has ways to go; how much of the improvement(s) possible are needed, desired or required depends on the end user, each individual.  In home theather, there is THX standard - and every device has to reach certain levels of perormance minimally required in order to be able to carry that THX approved badge.
 THX is far from perfect/best/whatever - but it does set the minimum performance that does allow for the home theather to work in one's home as intended by the director of the movie. Compare that to a turntable, pick up arm and cartridge - one can take a Yugo chassis, mate with some turbo large wheels off a mining truck and power it with a surplus jet off a Starfighter - and people would be ooching and aaching at seeing pics of such an analog rig. A lowly LOOKING but well chosen and adjusted set of components would barely get a mention - if lucky.
  
 Now, how many TTs actually achive frequency response 20-20k + - 1 dB, channel separation equal to or better than 35 dB across the SAME 20-20k, how many real world rigs have wow and flutter below 0.1% PLAYING REAL RECORDS ? And you do not want to throw the distortion levels to that mix ...
  
 Price in itself proved to be no guarantee to the excellence of quality. Since you mention Clearaudio; back in the day, I ran across an Insider ( THE most costly cart back in the day, 10 K in German Marks or so ) - that was so defective from the new box I would _NEVER _allow any of my LPs to be played with it. How many people have the possibility to prove that supposed-to-be-the-best is actually a dud - a VERY high priced dud to boot - making the mfr to grungigly replace it with a normal functioning one ?


----------



## Redcarmoose

one can take a Yugo chassis, mate with some turbo large wheels off a mining truck and power it with a surplus jet off a Starfighter - and people would be ooching and aaching at seeing pics of such an analog rig.
  
 "With an unknown vibration inducing rear drive-shaft of anodized aluminum of course."


----------



## Silent One

redcarmoose said:


> Caution, heavy bragging and fond memories of youth to follow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## analogsurviver

redcarmoose said:


> one can take a Yugo chassis, mate with some turbo large wheels off a mining truck and power it with a surplus jet off a Starfighter - and people would be ooching and aaching at seeing pics of such an analog rig.
> 
> "With an unknown vibration inducing rear drive-shaft of anodized aluminum of course."


 
 Sure - something like that, only in turntable context. 
  
 Seriously, what I meant was that in TTs, the freedom of the audiophile in choosing what to mate as a record player ( cart + arm + turntable = record player, NOT meant as a bellittle-ing of turntable, as generally in English language  - Turntable > Record Player; record player is more than just a turntable, the turntable in itself can not reproduce sound ) is WAY too great. And no one can deny that looks sell - compatibility be damned. Add to that "forced marriages" due to distributors/retailers - although glaring examples like a low compliance light weight moving coil cartridge in a Black Widow tonearm are (hopefully) thing of the past, how many distributors have you seen exhibiting an arm with the cartridge by their competition - regardless of being known that combo of "our" arm and "their" cartridge producing best results ? They usually let it limp best it can with what they are distributing - it is a fact of real life.
  
In car terms - if the roads ( theorethically ) supported safe 200 mph traffic, with "normal" high end TTs getting on average a hair below or above 100 mph at a punishing price is not exactly doing great. And no, you are not allowed to use an engine from Mercedes on the chassis of Audi in the "skin" of a BMW - that contraption, although composed with fine igridients, would have to be atested to be allowed to run in normal traffic; cost to do the necessary conversions etc in order for the car as a whole to work properly would be immense, even more so to get it atested. The quality of the resulting ride would most likely be totally disproportionate to the end cost.
  
In TTs, one is  allowed to do similar. Ultimate price in worse examples usually paid by the RECORDS themselves - definitely not a good proposition.


----------



## bbophead

My Rega gets me where I want to go.


----------



## Redcarmoose

analogsurviver said:


> Sure - something like that, only in turntable context.
> 
> Seriously, what I meant was that in TTs, the freedom of the audiophile in choosing what to mate as a record player ( cart + arm + turntable = record player, NOT meant as a bellittle-ing of turntable, as generally in English language  - Turntable > Record Player; record player is more than just a turntable, the turntable in itself can not reproduce sound ) is WAY too great. And no one can deny that looks sell - compatibility be damned. Add to that "forced marriages" due to distributors/retailers - although glaring examples like a low compliance light weight moving coil cartridge in a Black Widow tonearm are (hopefully) thing of the past, how many distributors have you seen exhibiting an arm with the cartridge by their competition - regardless of being known that combo of "our" arm and "their" cartridge producing best results ? They usually let it limp best it can with what they are distributing - it is a fact of real life.
> 
> ...






The phonograph (as an object type "machine") is a precarious like situation comparable to attempting to balance an electric ice cream maker a top a washing machine in heavy spin cycle with a comforter inside. Added ontop is a lie detecter machine and a complete ruin of the party with a single error on the graph paper.


----------



## bbophead

redcarmoose said:


> The phonograph as an object ala "machine" is the precarious like situation comparable to attempting balance an electric ice maker a top a washing machine in heavy spin cycle with a comforter inside. Added ontop is a lie detecter machine and a complete ruin of the party with a single error on the graph paper.


 
 Ouch!  Need a translation into English.  Sorry.


----------



## Redcarmoose

bbophead said:


> Ouch!  Need a translation into English.  Sorry.




Washing machine is the record. They are never perfectly balanced when they spin up and down and from side to side.


Electric ice cream maker is the motor. They go grrrrrrrrrrrr round and round producing vibrations.



The lie detector is the needle that goes side to side. Add to it the fact the groove holds the lie, which is that it represents a real musical performance.


I don't know if you have ever been to a party when the record skipped revealing the difference between a record and a live performance?

Just an alagory on the precariousness of it all.


----------



## Destroysall

Had a really early morning listening session to some Dave Brubeck today..


----------



## bbophead

redcarmoose said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > Ouch!  Need a translation into English.  Sorry.
> ...


 
 Umm, O.K..


----------



## bbophead

destroysall said:


> Had a really early morning listening session to some Dave Brubeck today..


 
 Good stuff.  Music and equipment.


----------



## Quinto

destroysall said:


> Had a really early morning listening session to some Dave Brubeck today..


 
 Cool stuff!


----------



## analogsurviver

destroysall said:


> Had a really early morning listening session to some Dave Brubeck today..


 
 NOTHING like early morning listening sessions - if REALLY first thing in the morning.


----------



## Silent One

Helps one to get right for the day...and take on the world.


----------



## Errymoose

Does 1am spinning some vinyl before getting to sleep count as early morning listening?


----------



## dosley01

My Scout has gotten blue balls!!!


----------



## Silent One

How's Sister Jones treating you?


----------



## dosley01

Not pictured, but my FOTM is the mono pressing of "Give the people what they want". I have the stereo version too but it's been relegated to the bottom shelf.


----------



## Eee Pee

THE WORLD'S MOST OBSESSIVE ALBUM COLLECTORS
  
 http://www.esquire.com/blogs/culture/eilon-paz-dust-and-grooves-book-excerpt?src=soc_fcbks
  
  
 Little crazy.  Music lover or collector?


----------



## bbophead

eee pee said:


> THE WORLD'S MOST OBSESSIVE ALBUM COLLECTORS
> 
> http://www.esquire.com/blogs/culture/eilon-paz-dust-and-grooves-book-excerpt?src=soc_fcbks
> 
> ...


 
 Ordered the book a couple of days ago.  Couldn't resist.


----------



## analogsurviver

errymoose said:


> Does 1am spinning some vinyl before getting to sleep count as early morning listening?


 
 No. What is meant by early morning listening is waking up early AFTER a decent sleep - without any distractions ( like going to work, hurry, etc ) whatsoever - and listening to at least one album in full. It is the closest one can get to the primal experience we used to indulge in regularly as kids in later periods of life.
  
 Precious little moments...


----------



## ]eep

Oh man, that is food for psychiatrists. "Each collection is a reflection of its owner".


Do you notice the matching carpet? That's what makes this a great photograph. Anal as it is, that *is* the way to store and maintain vinyl. With love and care. 


_Afrika Bambaataa's collection of 43,000-plus records, alphabetized for Cornell University Library's Hip Hop Collection, New York City_

Putting it on alphabet is not the same as love, or care...
Oh man, the librarian responsible for the archive is going to be sooo happy. Until he finds what's inside. :angry_face: I would make shure I had a good healthinsurance with a watertight covering of all expenses. Not to mention a gasmask and a white suit.


_A dubplate of Hydraulic Funk's "Wild Style," from Bambaataa's collection _

 'Wild funk' for sure. The tropic fungus in there is sure to give you a nasty lung infection, or worse. And is highly questionable if it's actually playable. If the state it's in is any indication for the quality of the music... Where I live a lot of people are brainwashed in to thinking that pot is not bad for your brain. But when I see this I suspect it does make you delusional. Collection, yeah right. That is not just careless, it's harmful neglect.


> Afrika Bambaataa is an American DJ from New York.



Not that it makes any difference; I thought he was from the caribean. Still, records from NY shouldn't be that funky (in the literal way, not the figurative musical way).



_David Fox Caldwell's collection in his Aikei Pro's Records Shop in Holly Springs, Mississippi (it took an hour just to clear away enough boxes to get inside)_

That's not the store of a shop, that hoarding. And destroying your assets. Or old age dementia. The only thing NOS (new old stock) in there are probably the tubes. The rest will be so warped that its unplayable. Anyway not enjoyable. 

And Im not even commenting on the african man. TIA for sure. 
_"listening to his records for the first time in thirty years, since his record player broke"_ :confused_face_2: 
I can not get my head around just how dark that continent is ( I have a lot of friends who lived there, were born there or tried to help). The stories I heard last week will send chills down your spine (and I'm talking about how they treat young children, not even about LP's or a broken recordplayer). They don't even care enough to be egotistical or self centered.


----------



## Anavel0

]eep, Afrika Bambaataa is an American DJ from New York.


----------



## ]eep

Ok. I made some effort to make, photoshop and upload a pretty, ontopic picture. It is a total mockup because I had to take the belt off to allow the sleeve to stand directly behind the TT. I spun up the disc by hand. Standing still it doesn't come out right, you can see every spec of dust plus it just looks motionless. 
I took me about 12 shots before I had it in focus in daylight with my big livingroom window as backlight in front of me and a big piece of styrofoam as reflector behind me. And still 1/6 second! But I think it looks pretty ok now. Yeah I did some advanced photoshopping (good practice), and no I don't smoke. 
And no, I couldn't make the picture landscape. 
Samsung WB2000; F 5.5, iso 100, 1/6 sec, manual exposure, no flash, no tripod.


----------



## bbophead

Nice but you need to do something about the spider webs.


----------



## ]eep

I'm not always that clean... 

oh, and hey, look what I found yesterday. This are some real NOS records new in from the same thriftstore. Even still in their little raincoats (glad they did in this weather). The glue behind the shops stickers has completely dried out so somebody stashed a few leftovers away for >20y (the shop is from the other side of the country). The saleprice sticker is pre-euro, about €4.50. I bought it for €1.
But they are new, mint, the Vivaldi still has the shrinkwrap sealed.


----------



## Destroysall

bbophead said:


> Good stuff.  Music and equipment.


 
  
  


quinto said:


> Cool stuff!


 
  
  


analogsurviver said:


> NOTHING like early morning listening sessions - if REALLY first thing in the morning.


 
  
  


silent one said:


> Helps one to get right for the day...and take on the world.


 
 Thanks guys! I love early bird sessions, they are so relaxing, calming.. my only gripe is that sometimes I just want to stay at home and listen away while sipping coffee.


----------



## analogsurviver

destroysall said:


> Thanks guys! I love early bird sessions, they are so relaxing, calming.. my only gripe is that sometimes I just want to stay at home and listen away while sipping coffee.


 
 Tell me about it ...


----------



## Clayton SF




----------



## Quinto

clayton sf said:


>


 

 What cartridge are you using and how do you like it?


----------



## bbophead

@ Clayton SF
  
 Beautiful set up.  Bet it sounds delightful.


----------



## Clayton SF

quinto said:


> What cartridge are you using and how do you like it?


 
  
 It is a _*Sumiko Blue Point #2 cartridge*_. I really like it.


----------



## Quinto

clayton sf said:


> It is a _*Sumiko Blue Point #2 cartridge*_. I really like it.


 

 Cool..I'm still using the Goldring Eroica LX that came with my MH 9.1 which works fine..but I'm considering an upgrade in the near future..
  
 I listen to mostly old classical and jazz records..


----------



## bbophead

quinto said:


> clayton sf said:
> 
> 
> > It is a _*Sumiko Blue Point #2 cartridge*_. I really like it.
> ...


 
 Aww man, I thought we were going to see a pic.  Drat.


----------



## Clayton SF

bbophead said:


> Aww man, I thought we were going to see a pic.  Drat.


 
  
 I'll look for some closeups when I get home. 
  
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/63411075@N00/with/4781865810/


----------



## bbophead

clayton sf said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > Aww man, I thought we were going to see a pic.  Drat.
> ...


 
 So many beautiful toyz.  AE, PrimaLuna, Zu, Pro-Ject, Woo, Decware and M-O-R-E!!!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Thanks.


----------



## analogsurviver

clayton sf said:


> It is a _*Sumiko Blue Point #2 cartridge*_. I really like it.


 
 I cry _*FOUL *_- you can not like the Sumiko Blue Point #2. 
  
 At least not the one in the pic of the turntable posted . Because the cart in the pic is Denon DL-160 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## analogsurviver

My mouse started "double clicking" - hence originally double post of above.
  
 Really nice set of toys in the above pictures - including the *Corpus delicti, *the SBP#2 mounted on another table. It is very easy to loose track of which cart was mounted on which table at exactly which time the pic has been taken - it happens to everyone.
  
 Enjoy listening !


----------



## Clayton SF

analogsurviver said:


> I cry _*FOUL *_- you can not like the Sumiko Blue Point #2.
> At least not the one in the pic of the turntable posted . Because the cart in the pic is Denon DL-160
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good catch! And my mistake. Sorry about that.
  
 I switch between turntables often. One has the Sumiko and the other has the Denon. I still had the Sumiko in mind when I answered the question. The _*Pro-Ject Xperience turntable has the Sumiko Blue Point #2*_ and the Music Hall MMF 9.1 is now fitted with the Denon DL-160. I have a Denon DL-103r that is still in its box. Haven't used it yet. I'm hoping to try that out next year or so with either turntable. Has anyone used the DL-103r?
  
 Oh, yes—and I do like the Sumiko Blue Point #2.


----------



## bbophead

If you do a search on http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/bbs.html you will find many, many posts on the 103R and lots of other Denons.  Should keep you busy for quite a while.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> If you do a search on http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/bbs.html you will find many, many posts on the 103R and lots of other Denons.  Should keep you busy for quite a while.


 
 Yes, Denons tend towards _storia mai finita. _The basic 103, regardless being relatively easy structure and almost older than the hills ( introduced in 1962 , how many audio components you know to have remained in the production for 52 years ? ) - but was always a correct cartridge. Its shortcomings ( tracking ability, channel separation ) Denon tried to improve with later models - funny thing, 103 outlived most of those ...
  
 Depends on the version, the ones with lower impedance tend to be less demanding on stepping up the signal.
 103R also need a quite heavy arm to perform properly.


----------



## Paul Graham




----------



## bbophead

paul graham said:


>


 
 Nice!  
  
 I love the NAD PP2i with my Rega/Ortofon.  So good for the money it's ridiculous.
  
 Tip:  Get some good replacement inner sleeves.  Just my 2 cents.
  
 These are worthy:  http://www.musicdirect.com/p-7291-mobile-fidelity-mfsl-inner-sleeves-pkg-50.aspx


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Nice!
> 
> I love the NAD PP2i with my Rega/Ortofon.  So good for the money it's ridiculous.
> 
> ...


 
 Agreed on inner sleeves. Yet, an old record never impresses as much in a new inner sleeve than in something "with history and stories to tell".


----------



## Quinto

analogsurviver said:


> Agreed on inner sleeves. Yet, an old record never impresses as much in a new inner sleeve than in something "with history and stories to tell".


 
 When I buy some old records I'll let myself be impressed over coffee by the history of 40 years of dust, coffee- mouse crap stains and cat hairs and then I'll start cleaning..


----------



## analogsurviver

quinto said:


> When I buy some old records I'll let myself be impressed over coffee by the history of 40 years of dust, coffee- mouse crap stains and cat hairs and then I'll start cleaning..


 
 Believe it or not - I ocasionally *still* find white hairs from my white/black cat - she just made it to see the start of this millenium.
 Question - where are the black ones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




?


----------



## Quinto

analogsurviver said:


> Believe it or not - I ocasionally *still* find white hairs from my white/black cat - she just made it to see the start of this millenium.
> Question - where are the black ones
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Either you have dark floor/interior or someone is finding only black hairs in a another space/time continuum..


----------



## analogsurviver

quinto said:


> Either you have dark floor/interior or someone is finding only black hairs in a another space/time continuum..


 
 Well...white ones do stand out on (mostly) black vinyl better - but I next to never find a black one.
  
 Anyone did study on electrostaic properties of white vs black cat hair ( from the same cat ) and their attraction to vinyl records 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ?


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > Nice!
> ...


 
 Wise ones keep the old inner sleeve as well.  I'm not always wise.


----------



## ]eep

Some old inner sleeves are remarkably clean. And some of them are really nostalgic. So if it's crap I toss it. But the better ones I keep. Also depending on the quality. If they have elaborate extra inner plastic sleeve or something I just blow them out once and they're good to go. The reason I can get away with it is because I always treat them with Permostat so once cleaned and treated they *stay* clean and attract no dust or hairs. 

Once I found a real good inner 'sleeve' system: just a folded (once + a little flap) large sheet of paper. I have no idea why this didn't catch because it's a much easier MO. It protects well while in the outer sleeve and you can just peel it open, so to say. How often is it that the record just *won't* come out? You really have to jerk it out of the inner sleeve while grabbing the record with your greasy fingers because there is just _no_ way it slides out by itself.


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> Some old inner sleeves are remarkably clean. And some of them are really nostalgic. So if it's crap I toss it. But the better ones I keep. Also depending on the quality. If they have elaborate extra inner plastic sleeve or something I just blow them out once and they're good to go. The reason I can get away with it is because I always treat them with Permostat so once cleaned and treated they *stay* clean and attract no dust or hairs.
> 
> Once I found a real good inner 'sleeve' system: just a folded (once + a little flap) large sheet of paper. I have no idea why this didn't catch because it's a much easier MO. It protects well while in the outer sleeve and you can just peel it open, so to say. How often is it that the record just *won't* come out? You really have to jerk it out of the inner sleeve while grabbing the record with your greasy fingers because there is just _no_ way it slides out by itself.


 
 I meant keeping the old inner sleeve if it has value.  Some have information of them and may enhance the re-sale value of its corresponding record.


----------



## ]eep

Well, so did I. There are inner sleeves with albumart, or lyrics. Or corny maintenance tips. Or cool '50 style adds. Or the really old yellowed but pristine sleeves. But if it has those music for the millions style album ads or are slit open at the sides, or really dirty/dusty worn and torn or those tacky D-shaped plastic sleeves I do replace them for a good new sleeve like the ones you pointed at.

The one in Paul Grahams picture (from the Beethoven album) is not necessarily bad. Just a bit folded (because it's to tight?).

Ah, just found it. I didn't really remember what record it was. It's a 60y old 10" minigroove mono. See the inner sleeve? That's the one I was talking about. It's like a large sheet of blotting paper (for the ones that remember writing with a fountain pen). One thing I can think of that might make it less good is that it's open on 2 sides and doesn't keep the dust out as much. 

Those old 10"mono's have amazing dynamics btw. Very often they're pretty worn because of the "lightweight" styli in those days ("less than 10g"). 





You can see what it is: I love Grumiaux on violin!


----------



## matthewh133




----------



## Quinto

matthewh133 said:


>


 
 Nice! Great TT, too bad they stopped producing them..still miss the perfect pitch sometimes.. I used a Denon D110 with mine, what cartridge is this?


----------



## matthewh133

quinto said:


> Nice! Great TT, too bad they stopped producing them..still miss the perfect pitch sometimes.. I used a Denon D110 with mine, what cartridge is this?


 
  
 Yeah they're absolutely awesome. They punch well above their price point. I am actually selling this one which kills me. Only doing it because I'm moving overseas and it's too big and heavy to take with me.
  
 I believe it's a Stanton 520.V3.


----------



## matthewh133

Another couple of shots:


----------



## bbophead

Beautiful!  Shame you have to dump it.


----------



## matthewh133

bbophead said:


> Beautiful!  Shame you have to dump it.


 

 Sure is. I'll get another eventually once I've settled.


----------



## podeschi

Which model and how much are you asking.


----------



## podeschi

Me ladies. Innovation...AMG...Spiral


----------



## bbophead

Serious and beautiful stuff.
  
 If I had that, I guess I would be spinning vinyl 24/7.


----------



## Quinto

podeschi said:


> Which model and how much are you asking.


 

 It says SL-1200mk2 on the photo


----------



## ]eep

> Nice! Great TT, too bad they stopped producing them..still miss the perfect pitch sometimes..



Yeah, just like NTSC television. Always such nice perfect colors. (you know what NTSC is said to stand for, right? Never the same color twice.) 

It's a DJ turntable. The slider is meant to adjust the BPM to match another record so that neither of them has the exact pitch. If you are using it just to listen to music I wouldn't worry too much. There are better sounding TT's. I'm not trying to be cruel or put you down but describing the 1200 as a great TT is true as far as it is used for it's intended use as DJ TT. As far as using it for hifi it is just nostalgia.


----------



## parbaked

]eep said:


> It's a DJ turntable. The slider is meant to adjust the BPM to match another record so that neither of them has the exact pitch. If you are using it just to listen to music I wouldn't worry too much. There are better sounding TT's. I'm not trying to be cruel or put you down but describing the 1200 as a great TT is true as far as it is used for it's intended use as DJ TT. As far as using it for hifi it is just nostalgia.


 
 It is not a DJ turntable. The 1200 was first released as a hifi consumer record player. 
 It was later adopted by DJs because of it's build quality, wow and flutter control and low resonance made it most suitable for clubs etc. 
 It was first adopted by radio DJs because the direct drive high torque motor design, making it, initially, suitable for pushbutton cueing and starting of tracks on radio.
 Later when when the use of slip-mats for cueing and beat-mixing (and scratching) became popular, the quartz-controlled high torque motor system enabled records to be mixed with consistency and accuracy. 
  
 I think it would be nice if we don't make critical comments when people post pictures of their rigs.
 This is a photo thread. No one wants to post pictures of their turntable only to have others tell them how mediocre their system is.
 This only serves to discourage posting pictures of turntables.
 IMO, this happens too much in this thread!


----------



## bbophead

+1.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Yeah, just like NTSC television. Always such nice perfect colors. (you know what NTSC is said to stand for, right? Never the same color twice.)
> 
> It's a DJ turntable. The slider is meant to adjust the BPM to match another record so that neither of them has the exact pitch. If you are using it just to listen to music I wouldn't worry too much. There are better sounding TT's. I'm not trying to be cruel or put you down but describing the 1200 as a great TT is true as far as it is used for it's intended use as DJ TT. As far as using it for hifi it is just nostalgia.


 
 I think we have covered this before. It is true what you say regarding SL1200 in its stock form - yet possible ways to have it upgraded to and beyond any audiophile dream has also been covered. Costly compared to the stock - but small change compared to what truly great TTs cost today. 
  
 I could have described what is wrong with 1200 to exceed the entire lenght of this thread - yet its positive attrbutes are worth improving what is not so stellar. There 
 are better sounding less well known models of Technics TTs out there - but the sheer number of 1200s produced means they are relatively affordable and will likely be sustainable for considerable time to come - by canibalizing, if necessary. No other TT on the planet can be expected to be sustainable for so long - and there are rumors that Matsusiita will perhaps bring it back into production - or its improved , hopefully a pure audiophile version without the compromises that had to be made to adapt oroginally audiophile TT into a DJ TT.
  
 All of the above makes it a viable alternative even in 2014 for audiophile use - but then expect it to cost without the arm and cartridge from 2K and up. Speed stability and freedom from noise are its strong points - and these are hard to equal or exceed at any cost. So, basics are more than OK - other issues with resonance contol (the weakest point of 1200 ), feedback etc can be improved trough modifications.


----------



## analogsurviver

parbaked said:


> It is not a DJ turntable. The 1200 was first released as a hifi consumer record player.
> It was later adopted by DJs because of it's build quality, wow and flutter control and low resonance made it most suitable for clubs etc.
> It was first adopted by radio DJs because the direct drive high torque motor design, making it, initially, suitable for pushbutton cueing and starting of tracks on radio.
> Later when when the use of slip-mats for cueing and beat-mixing (and scratching) became popular, the quartz-controlled high torque motor system enabled records to be mixed with consistency and accuracy.
> ...


 
 I totally agree regarding the above.
  
 I am the culprit #1 regarding the critical comments on posted pictures. I realize that someone may feel "bad" if I or anyone else wries something negative regarding the turntable in question - but I never intended this to be personal.  But merely patting everybody on the shoulder for posting the picture, no matter what the true performance of that TT, is in my view hypocritical. I would have far preffered my friends to tell me right out if something does not work exactly right - rather than saying, after a couple years AFTER I made change/improvement : ....yeah, that XY back then *really *sucked ... - just to stay on the polite side ...
  
 Life is too short for that kind of thing IMO.
  
 But I promise to hold my horses in this regard as much as possible in the future.


----------



## bbophead

Well, if you can't resist criticizing, then I guess you just can't.
  
 For me, I simply enjoy the turntable porn, which is basically what this thread is about.
  
 I thought.
  
 Thanks for not hammering the Rega owners.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Perhaps there should be a turntable thread that addresses problems, design or otherwise, separate from this thread.


----------



## matthewh133

]eep said:


> Yeah, just like NTSC television. Always such nice perfect colors. (you know what NTSC is said to stand for, right? Never the same color twice.)
> 
> It's a DJ turntable. The slider is meant to adjust the BPM to match another record so that neither of them has the exact pitch. If you are using it just to listen to music I wouldn't worry too much. There are better sounding TT's. I'm not trying to be cruel or put you down but describing the 1200 as a great TT is true as far as it is used for it's intended use as DJ TT. As far as using it for hifi it is just nostalgia.



Is this guy for real? At this price point, you'll definitely struggle to find anything clearly better than a SL1200, especially with some fairly economical upgrades.


----------



## ]eep

matthewh133 said:


> Is this guy for real? At this price point, you'll definitely struggle to find anything clearly better than a SL1200, especially with some fairly economical upgrades.




May I counter with another question? Is this guy for real? What do you consider real? Price and demand? Just go on glorifying the 1200 and you will get prices like these and prohibiting new upstarts like the U-turn. I am not saying the U-turn is great (it's in the category 'close but no cigar'), but is is really cheap for what you are getting new. 
As I was looking for some info on the U-turn I came across this reviewThe Best Turntable for Casual Listening which is rather fair and balanced. He does not recommend the U-turn. He does recommend the AT-LP120-USB, the step up being the Pro-Ject Debut carbon. And as I am reading, pOp, there is the SL1200 again. 


> The Music Hall MMF-2.2 bears a lot of similarity to the step up Pro-ject Carbon. In fact, they come from the same factory. But the MMF-2.2 lists for $450 despite coming with what most feel is an inferior tonearm and cartridge.
> 
> A go-to forever had been the Technics SL-1200 turntable, but now that it’s off the market, the price has risen and it costs from $450 for a used model to over $1,000 for a new one. It still has a large cult following and is the perennial choice of DJs everywhere. However it also came in a clear third place to the Rega P1 and Music Hall MMF-2.2 in the Sound & Vision review, surprising the author, who owns a Technics himself. If you plan to DJ, the SL-1200 is worth looking into, but setting up a used turntable can be a difficult job.



I was even willing to give the 1200 more credit. But I rest my case.

I hadn't seen this little TT before. It is half the price of the Pro-Ject Carbon and it's little brother called the Elemental. It costs GBP150, or €200. And you can't buy it in the US (yet!). I think it looks a lot better than... ow, I'm not going to even compare it. It looks stunning as is.
















parbaked said:


> I think it would be nice if we don't make critical comments when people post pictures of their rigs.
> This is a photo thread. No one wants to post pictures of their turntable only to have others tell them how mediocre their system is.
> This only serves to discourage posting pictures of turntables.
> IMO, this happens too much in this thread!



Please *read* what I said. I do not want to put people down or discourage them. As long as you say "this is my turntable and I am happy with it" then that is something I have no right to argue with. Nor do I want to. I even like the posted photo of the 1200. 

We have talked about the SL1200 in length. So why does he have to push the same buttons again? The thing that nags me is this comment. 


quinto said:


> Nice! Great TT, too bad they stopped producing them..still miss the perfect pitch sometimes...



And that is what I am trying to argue. That is far from objective and logically warped. What is 'perfect pitch" if there is a slider to correct it? Sliding is synonymous for incorrect, let alone imperfect.
Not to argue comments like: 


> It is not a DJ turntable. The 1200 was first released as a hifi consumer record player. It was later adopted by DJs because of it's build quality, wow and flutter control and low resonance made it most suitable for clubs etc. It was first adopted by radio DJs because the direct drive high torque motor design, making it, initially, suitable for pushbutton cueing and starting of tracks on radio.



That is just saying in different words that it *is* a DJ TT. It was not adopted for its hifi qualities. 
That is like saying the glue for post-it notes was invented as a semi-adhesive when it actually was a failed experiment for superglue. Or the Toyota Hilux was intended as a weapons platform for terrorists. It is arguably the best car ever made. That does not mean it can win a formula one race. Or a dragrace. It is the only car that ever made it to the north-pole though. 

Do you see where I'm getting at? I am trying to separate the nostalgia for PA equipment from just enjoying high fidelity music in the home.


----------



## parbaked

]eep said:


> Do you see where I'm getting at?


 
 No, you are so full of contradictions it is really a waste of time.
  
 Having a slider does not mean the 1200 is not capable of great accuracy. I'd argue the accurate drive system allowed Technics to incorporate the slider.
  
 1200 was designed as a consumer HI-Fi TT
 Hiace was designed as a consumer work truck.
 DJ's adopted the 1200 because it was the best available consumer product for their needs.
 Terrorists adopted the Hiace because it was the best available consumer product for their needs.
 Therefore calling the 1200 a DJ turntable is same as calling Hiace a terrorist weapons platform.
 So we are not saying the same thing at all.
  
 The Hiace and 1200 share similar qualities e.g. absolute reliability and performance in unfavorable conditions. 
 You argue that the Hiace may be the best car ever made, but others can't call a 1200 "great TT"....really?
 Judge the 1200 as you do a Hiace and you will see why millions think it is a great TT like millions think the Hiace is a great truck.
  
 Nostalgia is part of this hobby, especially vinyl. We are not all using vinyl for the highest possible fidelity.
 When one see a picture of a TT that one has great fondness for, the reaction is "great TT".
 Just like with an old car or restaurant or any number of things. 
 You really don't need to police and correct these emotions.
 It just brings a lot of unpleasant and unnecessary negativity.


----------



## bbophead

"Do you see where I'm getting at?"
  
 No.


----------



## ]eep

Do you see where I'm getting at? (here it comes) I am *trying to* separate the *nostalgia for PA equipment* from just enjoying high fidelity music in the home. 

"Therefore calling the 1200 a DJ turntable is same as calling Hiace a terrorist weapons platform."
Sure. Both are true. But that's not what I am trying to explain.
You are just trying not to understand what I mean. "The 1200 was first released as a hifi consumer record player." is just a dumb argument. You are actually arguing that the little fact that it was first released as a hifi turntable makes it a good hifi turntable. You can dissect my argument to shreds but you cannot see your own flawed logic.

My analogies are only to convey that often products are not always used as they are intended. They even named a prize after that; the Nobel Prize, because Nobel never intended his dynamite for killing people. There the analogy stops.

And I am not policing; I'm just warning; don't push my buttons (or anyone elses ftm).


----------



## Quinto

chill


----------



## bbophead

quinto said:


> chill


 
 +1 and many more.
  
 Where are pics?
  
 Here's a new one:
  

  

  
  
 1954 mono re-issue in great sound with quiet surfaces, we have Naxos(!) to thank for this Bethlehem lp.  Big mono image sounding a lot like stereo.  On the back is the logo above.  Gotta love it.  Or not.


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> Do you see where I'm getting at? (here it comes) I am *trying to* separate the *nostalgia for PA equipment* from just enjoying high fidelity music in the home.
> 
> 
> 
> And I am not policing; I'm just warning; don't push my buttons (or anyone elses ftm).


 
 Why do you feel compelled to do this?
  
 You're warning us?


----------



## parbaked

bbophead said:


> Where are pics?


 
 Here's a little Technics nostalgia:


----------



## Skylab

This thread definitely needs LESS banter and bicker and MORE pics! As such, I've really been enjoying my Denon DP-59L/Dynavector 20xH combo lately:


----------



## bbophead

parbaked said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > Where are pics?
> ...


 
 Fantastic!  Love the nostalgia.


----------



## bbophead

skylab said:


> This thread definitely needs LESS banter and bicker and MORE pics! As such, I've really been enjoying my Denon DP-59L/Dynavector 20xH combo lately:


 
 Scary and beautiful, simultaneously.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Well, if you can't resist criticizing, then I guess you just can't.
> 
> For me, I simply enjoy the turntable porn, which is basically what this thread is about.
> 
> ...


 
 Just installed a short circuit regular quality copper jumper for against criticizing turntables , leading directly to ground/earth - about average sequoia diameter;
  

  
 ... hope it will be enough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 I try to avoid truly high octane turntable porn - a$$ociated cost$s have at least one zero too much on the right side ( best case $cenario ).  To make clear what is meant ( HIGHLY above my budget ) : http://www.bornrich.com/79500-techdas-state-art-turntable-packs-latest-electronics-machining-technology.html  There are far better descriptions and reviews available online, I simply wanted to show the price first. Here is the interview with the designer : http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/meet-your-maker-hideaki-niskikawa-of-techdas/?utm_campaign=Hi-Fi%2B+Weekly+Emails&utm_medium=email&utm_source=email-262 I can only say that he adressed most of the failings in other designs, and adressed them well - and compared to some other tables, it can even be viewed as "bargain" - that last has to be of course reagarded as relative . As said above, I tend to avoid this level because of cost - but this TT is no gimmick in sense of acres of acryl, chrome and tons of marble, it is solid engineering at its best. 
  
 Rega owners have been spared - because Rega concentrated on doing bare bone basics right; and that in most cases produces better result than a technically superiour machine that does not adress the basics correctly. Otherwise: Oracle, Revox, Technics, Thorens ( listed alphabethically, by no means the only culprits ) models would not get replaced with Rega. 
  
 I agree there should be a separate thread regarding turntable problems. 
  
 In future,  I will continue contributing to picture thread - with *micro** *porn. Styli, cantilevers, etc.


----------



## analogsurviver

parbaked said:


> Here's a little Technics nostalgia:


 
 Nice - is it an originally black and white pic from Technics ?


----------



## analogsurviver

skylab said:


> This thread definitely needs LESS banter and bicker and MORE pics! As such, I've really been enjoying my Denon DP-59L/Dynavector 20xH combo lately:


 
 Vaguely reminds me of King Crimson's first LP - a very good picture.


----------



## parbaked

analogsurviver said:


> Nice - is it an originally black and white pic from Technics ?


 
 I can't remember where I found it but I imagine it is from an early ad.
 Here's one for Sony fans:

 So much cool kit...


----------



## koolas

analogsurviver said:


> Rega owners have been spared - because Rega concentrated on doing bare bone basics right; and that in most cases produces better result than a technically superiour machine that does not adress the basics correctly. Otherwise: Oracle, Revox, Technics, Thorens ( listed alphabethically, by no means the only culprits ) models would not get replaced with Rega.
> 
> I agree there should be a separate thread regarding turntable problems.
> 
> In future,  I will continue contributing to picture thread - with *micro** *porn. Styli, cantilevers, etc.




Right, Rega is the answer to all problems... because they did basics right...

Let's go back to SL1210 MKII for one moment...

Few months ago I was searching almighty Internet - the source of all knowledge known to humanity - to figure out which turntable I'm going to buy. I was going to buy Rega, RP-3 to be precise, but then I searched more, and RP-6 has even better made basics, so I got interested in that one, and then I continued looking and I found that I might want this blue cartridge, as "it digests more detail from old recordings" - this is what more-or-less guy on Youtube said when he was comparing RP-6 to RP-3. Ok, so I decided I want RP-6 with Blue cart, and then I looked up the price, and it was one followed by three zeroes of Sterlings. Kind'a much. I was pretty sure there must be something that would be at most half of that price and still very good fidelity. After reading lots of stuff, I concluded that 300 GBP SL1210 MK II is a bargin. At this price no Rega or Pro-Ject can compete, and then if I were to pay 1000 GBP why to buy new Rega, if you can buy something used but much better, than Rega. It's like buying car. Why would you buy small new car, if you can buy used big one for same money. I guess SL1210 is popular (among non-DJ-s) mostly because of good value it provides. And if some day I have too much money I would probably go for that Techdas TT


----------



## analogsurviver

koolas said:


> Right, Rega is the answer to all problems... because they did basics right...
> 
> Let's go back to SL1210 MKII for one moment...
> 
> Few months ago I was searching almighty Internet - the source of all knowledge known to humanity - to figure out which turntable I'm going to buy. I was going to buy Rega, RP-3 to be precise, but then I searched more, and RP-6 has even better made basics, so I got interested in that one, and then I continued looking and I found that I might want this blue cartridge, as "it digests more detail from old recordings" - this is what more-or-less guy on Youtube said when he was comparing RP-6 to RP-3. Ok, so I decided I want RP-6 with Blue cart, and then I looked up the price, and it was one followed by three zeroes of Sterlings. Kind'a much. I was pretty sure there must be something that would be at most half of that price and still very good fidelity. After reading lots of stuff, I concluded that 300 GBP SL1210 MK II is a bargin. At this price no Rega or Pro-Ject can compete, and then if I were to pay 1000 GBP why to buy new Rega, if you can buy something used but much better, than Rega. It's like buying car. Why would you buy small new car, if you can buy used big one for same money. I guess SL1210 is popular (among non-DJ-s) mostly because of good value it provides. And if some day I have too much money I would probably go for that Techdas TT


 
 Rega is NOT the answer to all problems - they merely made their products to be basically sound while still within the capabilities of majority of users to set them up
 reasonably well while giving decent sonics. This approach certainly can yield best performanve for the money when operated by"normal" people - but not the best overall. The mere existance of TTs similar to or like the TechDas is the proof there is beyond Rega thinking required for best possible result. 
  
 A 300 GBP for a decent condition SL 1200/1210 MKII is a bargain nowadays. It unfortunately IS possible for the Rega/Project to compete sonically at this price - as the SL 1200/1210 has so many gremlins that removing at least those most annoying will run you about twice the original 300 GBP paid. And a fully loaded 1200/1210 can well reach 5000 GBP mark - without arm and cartridge...
  
 There is a line of TTs I have only seen mentioned online and not yet in flesh, which might  well be a more reasonable way to go regarding a TT in 2014 than anything discussed above : http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue7/bellagio.htm 
  
 No association with either maker or distributor/retailer whatsoever, merely wanted to share something that might represent a viable alternative to the usual culprits - 
 and the prices are not out of line with the performance, particularly not this one : http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue5/bellavista.htm


----------



## bbophead

Sometimes I like to be lumped in with the "normal" people.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Sometimes I like to be lumped in with the "normal" people.


 
 Nothing wrong with normal people - specially if they are spinnin' Jean Luc Ponty 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Redcarmoose

More highly erotic turntable pornography.:evil:


----------



## Clayton SF

parbaked said:


> No, you are so full of contradictions it is really a waste of time.
> Having a slider does not mean the 1200 is not capable of great accuracy. I'd argue the accurate drive system allowed Technics to incorporate the slider.
> 1200 was designed as a consumer HI-Fi TT
> 
> ...


 
  
 I own 3 turntables including the 1200. I bought the 1200 for $300 new from Amazon in 2009. I used it for a few months then got a Music Hall MMF 9.1 and a Pro-Ject 2 Xperience. However, I feel that the 1200 is a workhorse. I'd lug that TT around to know it will play accurately in almost any situation. The Pro-Ject and the MMF 9.1 I will never lug around, they're too unluggable. 
  
 Besides, I'm usually putting around the house cooking, fiddling with odds & ends or just enjoying the view from my living room windows to really notice any changes in sound each turntable produces. I play vinyl about 10% of the time--90% are CDs or DVDs (HDTracks).


----------



## Quinto

redcarmoose said:


> More highly erotic turntable pornography.


 

 I need a cigarette


----------



## Amictus

Have just spent weeks on deciding which turntable to get - finally the choice became clear, as did the fact that I couldn't afford it (over 10000 in whichever currency you're playing with). Settled for a shabby compromise. Photo to follow in due course. Life is 'ard.


----------



## Skylab

Playing the new anniversary version of Bob Marley Legend:


----------



## longbowbbs

skylab said:


> Playing the new anniversary version of Bob Marley Legend:


----------



## bbophead

Mon, that is some f-i-n-e ganja.


----------



## Clayton SF

That record looks like a bowl of fine Jell-O.


----------



## Silent One

longbowbbs said:


> skylab said:
> 
> 
> > Playing the new anniversary version of Bob Marley Legend:


 
 Wait...music that looks good AND sound good?!


----------



## longbowbbs

I have almost pulled the trigger on that new album twice now.....Hmmm......


----------



## Silent One

longbowbbs said:


> I have almost pulled the trigger on that new album twice now.....Hmmm......


 
 After dinner-dessert I'm going to do a very dangerous thing: price check.


----------



## longbowbbs

silent one said:


> longbowbbs said:
> 
> 
> > I have almost pulled the trigger on that new album twice now.....Hmmm......
> ...


 
 Time to calorie count my change purse.....


----------



## Redcarmoose

silent one said:


> After dinner-dessert I'm going to do a very dangerous thing: price check.





I love it when records are sooo pretty they go up to the level of conversation piece.


----------



## Silent One

I can't stop looking at it go round-n-round Skylab's TT!


----------



## palmfish

skylab said:


> Playing the new anniversary version of Bob Marley Legend:




Weird, mine has a different label...


----------



## Skylab

Wow, yours does have a different label! I'm not sure what to make of that. I got mine from Amazon, so I'm pretty sure it's legit, but I like your label better!


----------



## palmfish

I bought mine about 3 years ago at a brick and mortar store. Maybe mine isn't the "anniversary" version?


----------



## Skylab

That's the difference then for sure. Mine is the brand new 30th anniversary edition. Not sure how the mastering differs but your label is cooler


----------



## Eee Pee

Looking at Bob's head spin around AND those colors spin around, that would be far out maaaan.  Totally.


----------



## Silent One

Looks to me like Skylab simply put a piece of candy on top of another.


----------



## Clayton SF

eee pee said:


> Looking at Bob's head spin around AND those colors spin around, that would be far out maaaan.  Totally.


 

 Hey, Eee Pee. How you Bee?


----------



## Eee Pee

Been okay Cee.  All good.  Taking it easy.  Sadly, haven't spun vinyl in a while, but that's neither hee nor thee.


----------



## Baldeagle58

A Pink Triangle. Wow, had not seen one of those for years and years. Way back when I listened to a Pt verses a Linn Sondek LP12. The PT was better in every way and I bought it, never to be sorry about that decision. The PT folks, who had a sense of humor to say the least, used to talk about coming out with a junior version of their table called the "Little Pink 12".
Man I wish I still had that table.


----------



## RazorJack

I've made some minor improvements to my 1210 MK2, that I bought used about three years ago.
  
 First I installed the dust cover hinges, which before I started seemed like a real hassle (I had never opened up my turntable before), but later turned out to be quite easy, thanks to a very helpful step by step guide I found. After all these years I think I should really have used a dust cover from the beginning! 
  
 Then I replaced the audio cables with some "decent" ones. As in undamaged, because that's what they first were when I bought my turntable from the previous owner! The sound was decent before, but as I notice now it seems as if the background noise is much lower, probably the damaged connection picked up some noise. 
  
 I also did the self-grounding mod, but it turns out my phono pre-amp didn't really like that, so I undid that immediately.
  
 And I got an original 6 mm rubber mat. Much better than a slipmat that would stick to my LP's every time due to built up static.
  
  

  
 I'm really happy with the result! These improvements didn't cost me that much, but I'd say overall the sound quality has improved, my turntable is cleaner and will be dust free from now on.


----------



## koolas

I also have sl1210 mk II, and pp2i phono. I have absolutely zero noise, and that could be because pp2i gets its power supply directly from t744's 240V out and not from main. I also connected their grounds with supplied cable. Truly, as for analogue chain, this lack of noise is pretty amazing! 

I presume you use power amp after phono. Does it have 240V output so that you could plug your phono to it?


----------



## RazorJack

Nope, my phono pre-amp is connected to a mains socket, and an adaptor supplies it with 12 V. I connect its line-out to either my headphone amplifier, or active speakers, depending on the situation.
  
 Honestly the noise level is inaudible for normal listening volume levels. I remember yesterday when I was finished soldering the cables and putting everything back together and spinning the first LP, I was waiting for the music to play and I turned up the volume on my headphone amp, and I didn't hear anything for a couple of seconds so I turned up the volume and suddenly it started and caught me by surprise. I was quite shocked as I had turned up the volume quite a bit, but what a pleasant surprise that was! Also considering it was one of my favorite albums that I have played a lot, and it still sounds so good. 
  
 Perhaps the rubber mat also has something to do with lowering the noise floor.
  
 One thing I did notice is that with the dust cover all the way down, the mechanical vibration from the turntable seems to get amplified. It's just barely audible when it's totally quiet around the house. Can be fixed by either lifting it just a bit, or putting something heavy on top of it.


----------



## bbophead

razorjack said:


> I'm really happy with the result! These improvements didn't cost me that much, but I'd say overall the sound quality has improved, my turntable is cleaner and will be dust free from now on.


 
 Congratulations on the re-discovery.
  
 I keep trying to find something wrong with the PP2i.  Can't, and it's dead quiet.


----------



## Redcarmoose

The NAD USB looks like a cool dac


----------



## MilleRSVR

.
 My VPI Classic 3.


----------



## bbophead

Beautiful table!
  
 Is that an Ortofon you're running?  Couldn't make it out.


----------



## MilleRSVR

bbophead said:


> Beautiful table!
> 
> Is that an Ortofon you're running?  Couldn't make it out.




Thanks!

Yes, it's an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze.

The picture is a bit dark, should have used the flash.


----------



## Silent One

millersvr said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Yes, it's an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze.
> 
> The picture is a bit dark, should have used the flash.


 





 Nice table by the way and no worries. Simply reboot reshoot & repost. But if you're rolling in the darkroom with film, then...


----------



## MilleRSVR

silent one said:


> Nice table by the way and no worries. Simply reboot reshoot & repost. But if you're rolling in the darkroom with film, then...:rolleyes:




I shot the picture with a digital camera. I still have a film camera, haven't used it in long time though, (giving away my age now).


----------



## Silent One

Can't wait to see the revised pix!


----------



## bbophead

While we're waiting .............
  
 Here's what the postman brought me today.
  

  

  
 Brand new bop from Joey D, Bobby Hutcherson, Dave Sanborn and Billy Hart.  Of course it's digital but it's cool to have Joey on vinyl although why they spread 43' over four sides at 33 rpm is mystifying.


----------



## Silent One

bbophead said:


> While we're waiting .............
> 
> Here's what the postman brought me today.
> 
> Brand new bop from Joey D, Bobby Hutcherson, Dave Sanborn and Billy Hart.  Of course it's digital but it's cool to have Joey on vinyl although why they spread 43' over four sides at 33 rpm is mystifying.


 
 Talk about fantasic fotos!!!
  
 The spread: it's been said grooves on the records inner circle is of lower quality playback than the outer grooves. They spread 'em out so all tracks get the good real estate!


----------



## bbophead

Thanks.
  
 Maybe the spread helps the sound in this case.  I'll check it out more carefully.


----------



## Silent One

A couple of my double 45 RPM Vinyl LPs have so much space on the records it looks like a mistake. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Gotta stand up like Jack-n-the-Box!


----------



## MilleRSVR

bbophead said:


> Brand new bop from Joey D, Bobby Hutcherson, Dave Sanborn and Billy Hart.  Of course it's digital but it's cool to have Joey on vinyl although why they spread 43' over four sides at 33 rpm is mystifying.




Just listened to some short samples of this album, great stuff. I think I'll be buying this one. Don't hate me but I might buy the hi-res download of this one.


----------



## bbophead

millersvr said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > Brand new bop from Joey D, Bobby Hutcherson, Dave Sanborn and Billy Hart.  Of course it's digital but it's cool to have Joey on vinyl although why they spread 43' over four sides at 33 rpm is mystifying.
> ...


 
 I just like the idea of a 2014 recording being on vinyl and the process of playing the record.  Sometimes it even sounds better.


----------



## Eee Pee

Yeah, the better real estate thing is how I understand it also.  I have a few "better" albums like that.  I even have a Dave Brubeck - Time Out 45 rpm'r on FOUR records.  One or two songs per side.  Talk about getting up a lot.


----------



## Silent One

eee pee said:


> Yeah, the better real estate thing is how I understand it also.  I have a few "better" albums like that.  I even have a Dave Brubeck - Time Out 45 rpm'r on FOUR records.  One or two songs per side.  *Talk about getting up a lot.*


 
 There's health benefits to this. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That makes Digital dangerous!


----------



## bbophead

Hard for me to resist this one, 2014 re-issue from 1963.  I like Mancini's writiing and the tenor man, Plas Johnson.
  
 How's my anti skate doing?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 Pretty in pink don't you think?


----------



## Silent One

WOWZA! I really love these pix! Yes, pretty in pink...


----------



## Skylab

OK that is SUPER cool. I need one!


----------



## palmfish

^ What he said


----------



## analogsurviver

Hopefully, one day we might see some of these in vinyl form - (please see post #1032 in http://www.head-fi.org/t/711582/havi-b3-pro-1-impressions-thread/1020#post_10735454 ) -  but till that happens, hope you will enjoy the live streaming.


----------



## pkrdlr007

My Dual CS 5000 with Shure M95ED


----------



## pkrdlr007




----------



## bbophead

Pretty!  Looks pristine.  Sound good?


----------



## pkrdlr007

It sounds great, especially now after servicing and new Shure M95ED stylus from Dual guru Bill Neuman at Fixmydual.com. I just know I'm going to regret selling it, but that's how it goes sometimes.  : (


----------



## bbophead

Ah, too bad.  
  
 If I may, what will you be replacing it with?


----------



## pkrdlr007

I won't be replacing it, having to sell some stereo stuff only things left is Nad amp, Dual CS 5000 and about 50-60 lps. I have inquired about selling at the upcoming meet in LA.


----------



## Schnarpf

Ok, Linn LP 12 with Origin Live Silver arm, Grado Statement Sonata and OL motor upgrade. Deep, "analog" sound


----------



## bbophead

A classic beauty!


----------



## Schnarpf

Thank you! Listening to this now:


----------



## bbophead

Well, I'm a sucker for B3.
  
 Joey Defrancesco has a wonderful album dedicated to Michael Jackson, "Never Can Say Goodbye"
  
 It's rather amazing.


----------



## Silent One

Thursday night I may have to bust out some vintage Jimmy Smith! Love that "Booker T" seen above...


----------



## Gram2

Technics SL-D1 wit Stanton L720 cartridge


----------



## bbophead

Looks like that will do the job very well although that is one furry mat.


----------



## JamesHuntington

Project essential II in stock configuration. Not a bad table for 300. Have a bellari tube phono preamp with the headphone out coming in the mail. Then today found a Yamaha c-6 (pictured)at a thrift store for $25-. I got it hooked up and dialed in. It has two very nice sounding phono inputs and the headphone out is loud enough to play my HD-600s very loud at half volume, and could possible blow them at full. It's surprisingly clean sounding for used thrift gear. It's missing 2 nobs, however they're unnecessary.
I wonder the age of the preamp, as the best I can find is 1980-81. I haven't plugged my hifiman into it yet, but looking at the year it might be a great companion for a YH-1000. It has more power at the headphone jack than any of my newer tuners.


----------



## MilleRSVR

I finally got around to taking some (hopefully) better photos of my turntable.
  
 I also just received my new Kenny Burrell, Midnight Blue LP from Music Matters.
 This is a great sounding album. Music Matters seems to always produce a excellent
 pressing. At least the ones I've bought.


----------



## Gram2

I was waiting on a stylus for my Technics SL-D1 with a Stanton L720 cartridge and finally was able to set up this late 70's early 80's phono player and it sounds great with my new albums. Waiting on an Audio Technica 120 e.


----------



## MilleRSVR

gram2 said:


> I was waiting on a stylus for my Technics SL-D1 with a Stanton L720 cartridge and finally was able to set up this late 70's early 80's phono player and it sounds great with my new albums. Waiting on an Audio Technica 120 e.




That's a nice vintage setup, brings back some memories. I always liked those Technics tables, although I never owned one.

I had a Thorens belt drive table in the late 70's. I sold it back in the 90's, wish I'd kept it now.


----------



## bbophead

This rekkid came in the mail today.
  
 It's so, well, groovy.


----------



## Silent One

Love that colour, bbophead!


----------



## bbophead

silent one said:


> Love that colour, bbophead!


 
 It's peachy-keen.


----------



## analogsurviver

No comment :
  
 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/magazine/the-brazilian-bus-magnate-whos-buying-up-all-the-worlds-vinyl-records.html?_r=1


----------



## Redcarmoose

analogsurviver said:


> No comment :
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/magazine/the-brazilian-bus-magnate-whos-buying-up-all-the-worlds-vinyl-records.html?_r=1






Interesting article. Record buyers who have giant collections believe that their collections are worth an umpteen amount of dollars but you could figure out by reading the article that it takes a special person who would buy the whole collection. 

The guy buys records and does not even realize he is getting one he already has. I have done that a lot.


As being a record collector I can write a big part of it is not true happiness. It is like an addiction where you never have enough records and always want more. There is a big part of the ego relishing over the size and quality of your collection. Basking in this feeling of importance and one of a kind personess. When in reality very few really care how many records you have amassed,

The most important thing is to truly know how fortunate of a person you are to be able to enjoy so much quality music. It is the appreciation of music and not the size of your collection that matters, unless your making a business out of it.

True crazy record collectors will put records in front of everything. Your wife, your financial realm and your piece of mind can become endangered if the collector ism is not controlled.


----------



## analogsurviver

redcarmoose said:


> Interesting article. Record buyers who have giant collections believe that their collections are worth an umpteen amount of dollars but you could figure out by reading the article that it takes a special person who would buy the whole collection.
> 
> The guy buys records and does not even realize he is getting one he already has. I have done that a lot.
> 
> ...


 
 +1. Great comment.


----------



## Silent One

analogsurviver said:


> +1. Great comment.


 
 +2.  I strive to maintain a healthy balance in life.


----------



## Skylab

Same here, although I'm glad I'm married as it's nice to have someone tell me that my record collection isn't allowed to get any larger 

I have more vinyl that I need as it is, and I'm now getting rid of LPs if I want to bring in new ones. Works well for me.


----------



## Redcarmoose

skylab said:


> Same here, although I'm glad I'm married as it's nice to have someone tell me that my record collection isn't allowed to get any larger
> 
> I have more vinyl that I need as it is, and I'm now getting rid of LPs if I want to bring in new ones. Works well for me.





At one point I had and entire room with two walls up to the ceiling stacked with more than 20 years of vinyl. I ended up with 65 UHaul boxes of records. I needed to put them in storage so I gave half away.

Having that many records ended in having to hire separate personal to help move. Still it was fun to see people's eyes when they walked into the library. I used to know a collector who had a warehouse for his records. He would sleep in the warehouse with his records.

A perfect example of the extreme collector was we lost our friendship due to fighting over who would end up with buying a single record we found together.

Losing friends over one record is just dumb.


A perfect example of record collecting is I used to be paranoid that my collection could be stolen or burned in a fire. I used to worry and even tried to insure it. Lol in the end I gave half away. I still own the good stuff.lol 


 I loved showing folks my record fishing spots. It was really fun to drive around Southern California and go from record fishing hole to record fishing hole. It took all day.

True extreme collectors will never show anyone where they buy records but will brag about the locations...lol


----------



## JamesHuntington

In the photo of the guy with all the records, they appear to be laying flat. I saw this article on Facebook somewhere before and was curious, as I've heard before, that it may be bad for them to lay flat. 
I like thrift store shopping and usually won't buy records that are flat and stacked really high. 
Anyway, IMO quality is better than quantity when it comes to music.


----------



## ]eep

yeah, I read the article. But what I got from it that this not normal behaviour (understandable, but not normal). It is hoarding. Or collecting plane and simple. Collecting is not done for necessity but for psychological comfort or compensation. As this case states plainly. Just like it's normal to know (have met and remember) around 5000 people MAXIMUM (FI teachers in a school) having such an amount of records is just silly. Your life is too short to listen to all of it, let alone remember it so you can enjoy it repeatedly (this is after all the essence of an LP). I have quite an extensive music collection of about 2000 LP's, 500 cd's and about 2000 flac albums (with lots of overlap) and I am still critical when buying old records (will I really play this?). My point: I don't think that more than 5-10k albums (I'm being generous) will make you any happier. And: there will always be new interesting music. Life goes on. Some thing fade, other remain interesting. 

Today I went to the thriftstore with a purpose. I had downloaded a lot of Klemperer albums, and I already inherited Beethoven 3 from my dad. And sadly underrated it as one of my dad's old rubbish. But my dad didn't have such bad taste, he was just very unable to put it in words when I was a kid. Anyway, I already had the piano concertos (Klemperer/Barenboim) and I wanted the nine symphonies. Well, you shouldn't expect to find a complete series of Columbia SAX records. Not in the thrift @ €1/pc. What, I haven't found even one of those first edition RCA, Columbia or Mercury Living presence albums. Just later reprints (not exactly true, I did find 2 originals). Knowledge IS power... Well, nothing to find in the regular bins with single albums. Seen every one of them already. So I looked under the table where they store rows and rows of boxes with crates full of books on top. So I started lifting the bookcrates and digging underneath. They weren't to happy about me. :rolleyes: But, nothing ventured, nothing gained. I said "do you want to sell this stuff or just store it where no-one is allowed to see it?" And what did I find? A big box with all 9 Beethoven symphonies by Klemperer + Philharmonia orchestra. The box was worn but the records were very clean and hardly played (like often with those boxes). I looked at the book and the labels and they were Columbia (not just EMI). Made in license by a dutch bookclub for some anniversary. I looked at the matrix/stamper codes and they were XXXXXX over and replaced with some other code. Looking closely they ARE the same as the original SAX series! On the symphony No.7 disc they forgot to XXXxxx the original YAX 693/3 out. So they are the original SAX stampers, probably somewhat worn but original! No.7 YAX 693/3 is the 1960 version. These are very sought after on Ebay as the prices indicate. 

So for €8 I own the complete Klemperer Beethoven symphonies from the same stampers as the Columbia SAX series. They do have some crackle but they sound very good. Me = happy camper.


----------



## Redcarmoose

jameshuntington said:


> In the photo of the guy with all the records, they appear to be laying flat. I saw this article on Facebook somewhere before and was curious, as I've heard before, that it may be bad for them to lay flat.
> I like thrift store shopping and usually won't buy records that are flat and stacked really high.
> Anyway, IMO quality is better than quantity when it comes to music.


 
 I have always kept them like books in a library on shelves. It is fine to lay them flat too. I have never done this but heard of collectors having 5 foot tall stacks all around the house. It is the ultimate lazy way to store records. ( You can store a lot that way ) The problem is the stacks can teeter and fall or blow out from the middle area. But ya it is done. That photo showed records strangely just laying in a cargo container completely scattered? Seems like you could fit more placing them in order. IMO?
  
 When I would make friends with record shop owners they would let me go into the back room and look at the new arrivals. If the company was short on time used records could be put in stacks. This process makes it really hard to get one record out of the middle with out causing a landslide of records all over.
  
 I have seen closets where the records were stacked to the ceiling for years. A sloppy way to store them but they don't warp that way due to the downward pressure. I always thought records could be warped with side pressure. Best though I think to have nice small groups sitting up like books in a library with very little side force on them.


----------



## Silent One

@ ]eep
  


> So for €8 I own the complete Klemperer Beethoven symphonies from the same stampers as the Columbia SAX series. They do have some crackle but they sound very good. Me = happy camper.


----------



## Redcarmoose

]eep said:


> yeah, I read the article. But what I got from it that this not normal behaviour (understandable, but not normal). It is hoarding. Or collecting plane and simple. Collecting is not done for necessity but for psychological comfort or compensation. As this case states plainly. Just like it's normal to know (have met and remember) around 5000 people MAXIMUM (FI teachers in a school) having such an amount of records is just silly. Your life is too short to listen to all of it, let alone remember it so you can enjoy it repeatedly (this is after all the essence of an LP). I have quite an extensive music collection of about 2000 LP's, 500 cd's and about 2000 flac albums (with lots of overlap) and I am still critical when buying old records (will I really play this?). My point:6 And: there will always be new interesting music. Life goes on. Some thing fade, other remain interesting.
> 
> Today I went to the thriftstore with a purpose. I had downloaded a lot of Klemperer albums, and I already inherited Beethoven 3 from my dad. And sadly underrated it as one of my dad's old rubbish. But my dad didn't have such bad taste, he was just very unable to put it in words when I was a kid. Anyway, I already had the piano concertos (Klemperer/Barenboim) and I wanted the nine symphonies. Well, you shouldn't expect to find a complete series of Columbia SAX records. Not in the thrift @ €1/pc. What, I haven't found even one of those first edition RCA, Columbia or Mercury Living presence albums. Just later reprints (not exactly true, I did find 2 originals). Knowledge IS power... Well, nothing to find in the regular bins with single albums. Seen every one of them already. So I looked under the table where they store rows and rows of boxes with crates full of books on top. So I started lifting the bookcrates and digging underneath. They weren't to happy about me.
> 
> ...


 
 Your post has all the tell-tale clues of a record hoarder. LOL
  
 Don't worry I'm not criticizing you as I am one too. Still I will ( if I can point out all the tell-tale clues of record hording )
  
 1) *2000 records*
  
 2) *"critical when buying records"* enabling to still purchase more but with an excuse " they are good quality "
  
 3)* "Some thing fade, other remain interesting." *The perfect reason to keep eeevryttthing!!! We all know the day after you get ride of one single record of the 2000, fate has it that you wish you had it back and the music has somehow come into style or you just plainly miss it. LOL
  
 4) *Went to a Thrift Store*. ( Need I say more ) LOL
  
 5)* "I wanted the nine symphonies"* The completest factor that gives the great excuse to get em all. Maybe the best single excuse to also get the whole uncatalogued and catalogued output on vinyl by one single artist. Same further excuse to get solo albums by related band members and by related groups of artists. It never ends. LOL 
  
 6)* "I don't think that more than 5-10k albums (I'm being generous) will make you any happier."* Validating own behavior as correct.
  
 7) *" So I looked under the table "* This action goes with out saying. The collector is always searching in out of the way places. Especially, at Record Stores and Thrift Shops.
  
  
  
  
  
  
 Before I continue I hope you understand I am laughing with you not at you? I am the same way.
  
  
  
  
  
 8) *" So I started lifting the bookcrates and digging underneath. They weren't to happy about me "* LOL
  
  
 9)* And what did I find? *     This is maybe the single greatest rush for the collector. The initial find moment this is when the endorphins kick in and a state of nervous but self opiated behavior begins. Especially if the record is not priced!  
  
  
 10) Finally the brag about the find. The satisfaction which is fleeting and must be cured with another grand find.


----------



## fullnine

millersvr said:


> I finally got around to taking some (hopefully) better photos of my turntable.
> 
> I also just received my new Kenny Burrell, Midnight Blue LP from Music Matters.
> This is a great sounding album. Music Matters seems to always produce a excellent
> pressing. At least the ones I've bought.


 
 Sweet setup. Really should get a better camera though! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Ive got a VPI too and I notice you are using Bob's Devices 1131 SUT.  I've got one too and couldn't be happier.


----------



## MilleRSVR

fullnine said:


> Sweet setup. Really should get a better camera though!
> 
> Ive got a VPI too and I notice you are using Bob's Devices 1131 SUT.  I've got one too and couldn't be happier.




The Bob's Devices is excellent !!

Looks like you have the new 3D printed tonearm. I was thinking of buying one myself. How does it sound compared to the standard arm?


----------



## Clayton SF

A stylish window display:
 De 9 Straatjes, Amsterdam, 18 Aug. 2014, 4:23 PM.
 It was spinning at 33 1/3 rpm and making me very hungry!


----------



## analogsurviver

clayton sf said:


> A stylish window display:
> De 9 Straatjes, Amsterdam, 18 Aug. 2014, 4:23 PM.
> It was spinning at 33 1/3 rpm and making me very hungry!


----------



## Redcarmoose

clayton sf said:


> A stylish window display:
> De 9 Straatjes, Amsterdam, 18 Aug. 2014, 4:23 PM.
> It was spinning at 33 1/3 rpm and making me very hungry!





I'll take that one........which one?........that one...............that one?...........no that one!


----------



## alexberg

This black beauty is mine )


----------



## bbophead

Impressive!
  
 Please tell us more.


----------



## Quinto

alexberg said:


> This black beauty is mine )


 





 stunning
  
 please tell some more, what cartridge are you using, how does it compare with other TT you had?   Thanks!


----------



## alexberg

quinto said:


> stunning
> 
> please tell some more, what cartridge are you using, how does it compare with other TT you had?   Thanks!


 
  
 Hi! 
 The one pictured is Ortofon 2M Black mounted on Audiomods tonearm (both sold now). I also used Ortofon MC Windfeld, great cartridge in every respect for any type of music jazz, blues, rock, vocals.
 I can't compare it much with other turntables in the same price range, except for SME 10 (witch I considered initially) and TW. I wasn't impressed with SME 10 though, the sound was lifeless to me and I've listened to it on a few occasions. Dr.Feickert is a totally different story, it plays any type of music with authority and has great speed stability. Maybe design of the Dr.Feickert is not for everyone's taste, but to me it's on of the best looking TT on the market and it's built like a tank ) The option of mounting 2 tonearms is also great.


----------



## alexberg

bbophead said:


> Impressive!
> 
> Please tell us more.


 
  
 Thanks!


----------



## bbophead

I guess this begs some questions.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 What tonearm are you using now?
  
 Plans for the second tonearm?  Cartridge?
  
 I must read more about the Feickert and get educated.


----------



## alexberg

bbophead said:


> I guess this begs some questions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 For the moment the second arm is 12" JELCO (not mounted yet) and I'm planning to upgrade the stock headshell with Acoustical Systems Arché headshell (http://www.arche-headshell.de/the-arché/)
As for the cartridge I'm still thinking, but I'd be looking for more down to earth options like *Dynavector DV-20 X2 *for example. Don't get me wrong, the Windfeld is a fantastic pickup (I really miss it), but it's repair cost is 1700 Euro (check the Ortofon site), so don't want to face such risk anymore ))


----------



## Redcarmoose

alexberg said:


> This black beauty is mine )





One of the best looking I have ever seen. Just wow.


----------



## alexberg

redcarmoose said:


> One of the best looking I have ever seen. Just wow.


 
  
 Thanks! In reality it looks even better.


----------



## analogsurviver

*Bamboo Turntable*
  
 I have a Facebook friend who is heavily into DIY - particularly speakers, more particularly still anything connected with woodworking.
  
 Today he posted this : http://de.schiller-phono.de/ready-made
  
 ( even to non-German speaking readers, there are more pics - which tell more than 1000 words;  ) 
  

  
 As my country is too small ( 2M souls ) for the IKEA to consider having a retail outlet here, the nearest is in Klagenfurt, Austria. I go there maybe twice a year - max. And yes, I would have come to the very same idea if I saw these bamboo pieces lying around... The cutting desk is still available at EUR 14.99, but the round part used to make the platter and "wok forceps/pliers" for the tonearm are sold out - the last vestiges of it I could find as a sold out ebay.de item  ( last available at EUR 29.90 + shipping - "platter" weighs 3.5 kg ! ) . See what luck you have in your neck of IKEA woods.
  
 This cutting desk could also easily be used as a turntable support - just add 4 feet of your choice ...


----------



## Redcarmoose

Perfect for exotica records.


----------



## bbophead

For more bamboo:  http://www.triartaudio.com/gallery/


----------



## TelcontaR

Here is my first turntable ! A music hall mmf-2.2 !


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> For more bamboo:  http://www.triartaudio.com/gallery/


 
 The "IKEA" turntable link also mentiones the triartaudio TT - but I did not investigate further; to find *everything *made of of bambo must be the point of concern to pandas 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > For more bamboo:  http://www.triartaudio.com/gallery/
> ...


 
 If you go on the triart site, you will find gobs of bamboo built hi-fi products.  Some will call them ugly, I call them odd.


----------



## Redcarmoose

bbophead said:


> If you go on the triart site, you will find gobs of bamboo built hi-fi products.  Some will call them ugly, I call them odd.











I live on Bali Island, so I see so much bamboo, I'm bamboozled...".............."................


----------



## Quinto

telcontar said:


> Here is my first turntable ! A music hall mmf-2.2 !


 

 Cool set up! How do you like the Ortofon?


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> If you go on the triart site, you will find gobs of bamboo built hi-fi products.  Some will call them ugly, I call them odd.


 
 Well, beauty is in the eye of beholder, de gustibus non est disputandum, etc. I find bamboo audio has a certain weird idiosyncratic appeal. 
  
 But it is an interesting material with better mechanical properties than the usual suspects. Here particularly its damping characteristics are meant as being advantageous for audio - particularly turntable. Especially if still reasonable price of the finished product is the goal.
  
 There is always carbon fibre of one sort or another - but that route can make in the end a F1 car look ... for the lack of the better word - cheap.
  
 Anybody with listening experience of the bamboo audio devices ?


----------



## analogsurviver

redcarmoose said:


> I live on Bali Island, so I see so much bamboo, I'm bamboozled...".............."................


 
 Great architecture !
  
 How many TTs  you reckon out of an "average" bamboo house - or bamboo grows too fast to bother tearing down the house ? That last reference is to a certain violoncello builder from Italy ( its official ad ) - pictured amidst a church with torn down/without the roof - saying :
  
 " Sorry about the roof, but we need the wood for our instruments ! "
  
"bamboozled" - the everlasting first association :


----------



## Funambulistic

My speakers, the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1, have bamboo enclosures and are quite inert - much more so than a cabinet made of, say, MDF. They sound incredible as well!


----------



## analogsurviver

funambulistic said:


> My speakers, the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1, have bamboo enclosures and are quite inert - much more so than a cabinet made of, say, MDF. They sound incredible as well!


 
 Interesting indeed ! MDF is too lively for this purpose and measures that can and do make it more inert are awkward to apply and/or costly, leading to ether poor performance or high price. From brief internet search I reckon Ascend acoustics Sierra-1 must be quite a performer - never before even heard of them !
  
 The importance of enclosure for loudspeakers can be heard painfully audible by comparing Celestion SL-6 ( normal cabinet ) with SL-600 ( aerolam, honeycomb aluminium structure ) speakers, that otherwise share the same drivers and crossover. Too bad that aerolam enclosure burns such a hole in the pocket - and SL-6/600 is comparatively quite small enclosure. Aerolam in say a floorstander may simply be prohibitive in price. The use of bamboo for the enclosure may well bring much of the advantages of aerolam within reach of much more people.


----------



## Redcarmoose

analogsurviver said:


> Great architecture !
> 
> How many TTs  you reckon out of an "average" bamboo house - or bamboo grows too fast to bother tearing down the house ? That last reference is to a certain violoncello builder from Italy ( its official ad ) - pictured amidst a church with torn down/without the roof - saying :
> 
> ...





After you wake up from your bamboo bed, you take a shower in your bamboo bathroom in your bamboo house.



You dry off with a bamboo towel and put on your bamboo cloth shirt.



Before you leave you listen to your bamboo stereo and drink tea from a bamboo cup.



You get on your bamboo bike, put on your bamboo sunglasses check your bamboo iPhone and go to your bamboo office building to sit at a bamboo desk. It's endless really. :mad:














Bamboozled yet?


----------



## analogsurviver

redcarmoose said:


> After you wake up from your bamboo bed, you take a shower in your bamboo bathroom in your bamboo house.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Ouch - too much bamboo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 for an European to stomach in one go ... bamboozled, YES !
  
 I guess the neighbour's grass is always greener 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




- but please check what the material that seemingly oozes out of any and all your holes means for the loudspeaker enclosure ( and even more for a turntable ) : http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?2597-Sierra-The-Cabinet&p=22500#post22500


----------



## ]eep

I'm reading this with my bamboo socks on. Really, I am not joking. Very comfy, like silk. I like the bamboo project, I like experimenting. But Aerolam is nothing like bamboo. Bamboo has aprx the same weight as pine, Aerolam is feather light, like foam. And because of it's light weight is not able to isolate sound below a very high frequency compared to thick woodfibreboard. Those Celestion speakers were like a dipole in the bass. Its just like the new windowframes in my flat where they used a sort of refrigerator-like sandwich material under the windows (1.5mm Al, 30mm pu-foam, 1.5mm Al), the noise is almost the same as sleeping outside! 

As much as I like the bamboo TT for ingenuity and the use of stock Ikea materials, it's nothing like that beautiful Dr Feickert!  Arm ditto. If I only had the money... 

2 weeks ago I helped a friend on a independent record label fair and selling 4 crates of my surplus records. Sold spme 50 records for a decent price (EP €3, LP €8). This way the collection I bought pays it's own way leaving me with a good 400 lp's I like for free. But, here's the thing I wanted to share, one of the stands had a recordcutter with him. People were literally standing in line to make a record! The name is a hoot too, in Dutch meaning rek... o darn! (where darn = an expletive of a certain female part). 






It had been used on one of the Antilles, very basic portable unit with tube pre-amplifier and 2 inputs.


----------



## Eee Pee

That's very cool!  I'd get in line to just to hear my own voice on a record, just laughing at how cool it's going to be to hear my voice on vinyl.


----------



## bbophead

eee pee said:


> That's very cool!  I'd get in line to just to hear my own voice on a record, just laughing at how cool it's going to be to hear my voice on vinyl.


 
 What a fabulous idea!  
  
 But, take it from me, you don't want to hear your own voice on a record.
  
 It's a bring down.


----------



## ]eep

I think you would have to buy the whole setup in oder to be able to do that. For yourself.... at home. I mean, with all the talent waiting in line. Really? The people playing were not just 3rd rate streetmusicians. Ppl in Amsterdam are very friendly but they do not take any attitude. 
Hmm, I can sing pretty well, but I do NOT want to hear myself.


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> I think you would have to buy the whole setup in oder to be able to do that. For yourself.... at home. I mean, with all the talent waiting in line. Really? The people playing were not just 3rd rate streetmusicians. Ppl in Amsterdam are very friendly but they do not take any attitude.
> Hmm, I can sing pretty well, but I do NOT want to hear myself.


 
 +1


----------



## rmullins08

Got my first turntable last week (poor picture quality).  Pro-ject Debut Carbon.  Running through the ART DJ II, into Schiit Magni (for now, have a Vali on order), with Grado SR325e's.
  
 Trying to figure out a nicer table/storage solution (currently the dining room table is my storage area)


----------



## bbophead

Man, that looks real nice!
  
 Is that an Ortofon 2M Red cartridge?
  
 I loves my Ortofon.


----------



## Redcarmoose

I believe that we will have 3D printing turntable kits in 5 years. There is no way we could not make a 10k turntable with the right parts at home for $300.00.




http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2014/09/3-year-old-boy-gets-prosthetic-iron-man-hand/


----------



## penmarker

Even if you can print yourself a turntable, there will be a lot of elbow grease needed for the post production. 3D printers don't produce the smoothest surfaces.
 Might as well cut a block of wood/bambo and make yourself a turntable from it, since a turntable is a precision instrument.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I'm reading this with my bamboo socks on. Really, I am not joking. Very comfy, like silk. I like the bamboo project, I like experimenting. But Aerolam is nothing like bamboo. Bamboo has aprx the same weight as pine, Aerolam is feather light, like foam. And because of it's light weight is not able to isolate sound below a very high frequency compared to thick woodfibreboard. Those Celestion speakers were like a dipole in the bass. Its just like the new windowframes in my flat where they used a sort of refrigerator-like sandwich material under the windows (1.5mm Al, 30mm pu-foam, 1.5mm Al), the noise is almost the same as sleeping outside!
> 
> As much as I like the bamboo TT for ingenuity and the use of stock Ikea materials, it's nothing like that beautiful Dr Feickert!
> 
> ...


 
 Great story. And seeing a Rek-O-Kut portable cutter in action !
  
 Regarding aerolam; as far as I undersatand it, it is an all aluminium honeycomb structure used in aircraft industry, which was used in Pink Triangle Anniversary turntable (praised to this day for its sound almost inistinguishable from the master tape ) and Celestion sl-600 - and neither of these two could attain the SQ they have if aerolam was as described by you. I guess MANY different options exist - from room insulation version that can be wrapped in spools to thick rigid sheets/slabs, with or without the addition of other materials -  and proper selection for the job at hand is all that really matters..
  
 http://www.audiosmile.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8468
  
 Funny how colour can influence the porception of a turntable; I see Feickert TT "regularly" at the local distributor's - in silver. It left me stone cold - partly due to the fact that never during my visits it was anything but static display - not playback ready. Yet the black one in pictures above looks sooooo more appealing...


----------



## analogsurviver

redcarmoose said:


> I believe that we will have 3D printing turntable kits in 5 years. There is no way we could not make a 10k turntable with the right parts at home for $300.00.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Plausible. Which kind of materials are possible for the 3D printer at present ? 
  
 I did not mention bamboo out of aesthetic/exotic reasons - materials in an analog turntable are ultimately make or break as far as playback quality is concerned. Man made materials hitherto used for turntables generally lack the damping required. Metal platters/subchassis/etc -  ringing...ing...ring-ing - sounds familiar ?
 Acryil and similar is better, but not quite there yet.
  
 The reasons behind the above are very well covered here , in Soundsmith's cactus cantilever : http://www.sound-smith.com/cartridges/hyperion.html
  
 http://thevinylanachronist.blogspot.com/2011/10/cactus-needles-hyperion-phono-cartridge.html
  
 3D cactus platter ?
  
The question remains regarding tolerances etc - and the 3D printers capable of doing it will "slightly" exceed that $ 300 mark...


----------



## Redcarmoose

analogsurviver said:


> Plausible. Which kind of materials are possible for the 3D printer at present ?
> 
> I did not mention bamboo out of aesthetic/exotic reasons - materials in an analog turntable are ultimately make or break as far as playback quality is concerned. Man made materials hitherto used for turntables generally lack the damping required. Metal platters/subchassis/etc -  ringing...ing...ring-ing - sounds familiar ?
> Acryil and similar is better, but not quite there yet.
> ...


 
 Yes, this article talks about the two plastics used today. Sure more to come. In twenty years 95% of what we own will be printed.
  
 http://www.techrepublic.com/article/3d-printing-10-factors-still-holding-it-back/


----------



## ]eep

> In twenty years 95% of what we own will be printed.



Really? The brave new world? Can it print debts too? Just like you can't print money with a colour-printer (btw it is absolutely impossible to print money anyway, by anyone. No cental 'bank' can. You can mint it but not print it. But that is a different subject matter entirely). 
The promise is often much greater than the stark reality 30y after the fact. I still remember the cd infomercial, you could put peanutbutter on the cd, or scratch it and it would still play. Yeah right. Like I said, I was in Amsterdam with my friend who owns a record label and all their sales is now; downloads and vinyl. Hardly any cd's.

3D printing opens up a lot of new possibilities from a shaping point of view, but not the even more important material PoV. You cannot print tungsten or ceramic. And the resolution of the printer is an important factor, just like with a colour-printer. Low res is just for toys and gimmicks. Or the office ... go on luv, go print me a cuppa coffee please.  

Planting a seed and make a structure grow from just adding water. Now that is ingenious.


----------



## rmullins08

bbophead said:


> Man, that looks real nice!
> 
> Is that an Ortofon 2M Red cartridge?
> 
> I loves my Ortofon.


 
 That it is.  Standard with the debut carbon.  Really pleased with it.  Picking up a cork mat to try out instead of the felt mat.


----------



## dosley01

rmullins08 said:


> That it is.  Standard with the debut carbon.  Really pleased with it.  Picking up a cork mat to try out instead of the felt mat.


 
  
 That will help immensely with static.


----------



## rmullins08

dosley01 said:


> That will help immensely with static.


 
  
 Definitely part of the reason I ordered one. I'm very happy with the sound I am getting right now, but the static cling to the felt mat gets to be annoying.


----------



## ]eep

Got static? Use Permostat. Really. I use it as standard with every record I just bought. No more clinging dust, no more sticking felt mat, no more records that are impossible to remove from the inner jacket. If I buy 2nd hand I can even reuse the old liner after cleaning and treating the LP. The dust wont stick anymore so just one blow in the liner and your dust is mostly gone. Any superficial dust you can simply wipe away with the ubiquitous carbonfibre brush. Permostat can be applied much more economically than the manual implies, just 3 to 4 well aimed sprays per side is enough to permanently get rid of static charge. Just brush it out well. Using it sparingly will reduce the cost to about 50c per LP and prevent sticking to plastic inner sleeves (looks bad but doesn't really do any harm). 

On my RC (Okki Nokki) it is 1 simple workflow: squeeze the cleaner on (1 revolution), spread it while brushing with the goathair brush( 5 rev), vacuum (2 rev), spray on Permostat (1 rev), brush out (3 rev). Flip and repeat. Done. Clean record. Forever!


----------



## Silent One

I'll have to try that with my RC (Okki Nokki).


----------



## AK7579

Where can I find some Permostat in the USA. My searches have proved futile!


----------



## ]eep

I see. It's hard to find in the US. Maybe because it's a flammable liquid? Maybe because your government assumes you want to blow up another WTC? On Acousticsounds it's a 'noshow' article. It might be some sort of trade restriction. You could try to order in the UK but if there is some sort of "law" that might lead to a no show as well. We live in such a free world (not!). I fell quite guilty for raising your hopes up for nothing.

I bought it here. Starter kit €23, jumbo refill €27. I am sending him a mail if he has any experience in shipment to the US.


----------



## AK7579

Thank you for the info. I look forward to his reply.


----------



## Silent One

Does it go by another name for North America?


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I see. It's hard to find in the US. Maybe because it's a flammable liquid? Maybe because your government assumes you want to blow up another WTC? On Acousticsounds it's a 'noshow' article. It might be some sort of trade restriction. You could try to order in the UK but if there is some sort of "law" that might lead to a no show as well. We live in such a free world (not!). I fell quite guilty for raising your hopes up for nothing.
> 
> I bought it here. Starter kit €23, jumbo refill €27. I am sending him a mail if he has any experience in shipment to the US.


 
 It can be due to the postal regulations regarding chemicals. I remember a certain cleaning kit from US sold by the Audio Amateur/Speaker Builder in the 80s, when WTC was still alive and well; has also been prohibited to send overseas. 
  
 Otherwise, try UK. http://www.milty.co.uk/
  
 Amazon is... out : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Milty-Permostat-Anti-Static-Vinyl-Cleaning/dp/B003ARE0D8
  
 And the final straw : http://www.juno.co.uk/products/milty-permostat-refill-not-available-outside-the-uk/299776-01/
  
 Hopefully not for drooling purposes only : http://alatest.co.uk/reviews/other-electronics/milty-permostat-kit/po3-72376007,310/
  
 http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=511818
  
 Hope it works out in the end !


----------



## ]eep

I received answer very promptly. He will send to the US no problem. I do think it is wise to check postal/customs regulations prior to ordering. Milty is a small British firm that might not be available in the US. He failed to provide any possible cause though.

You could approach Acoustic sounds for any explanation. I'm sure if they know anything they will tell you, on the other hand; they are very commercial and will try to persuade you to buy through them or sell you some snakeoil alternative. My Dutch supplier is very down to earth and straight-up with 40Y of experience.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I received answer very promptly. He will send to the US no problem. I do think it is wise to check postal/customs regulations prior to ordering. Milty is a small British firm that might not be available in the US. He failed to provide any possible cause though.
> 
> You could approach Acoustic sounds for any explanation. I'm sure if they know anything they will tell you, on the other hand; they are very commercial and will try to persuade you to buy through them or sell you some snakeoil alternative. My Dutch supplier is very down to earth and straight-up with 40Y of experience.


 
 As Permostat sold by pickupnaald.nl ( a VERY good supplier/source )
  
  http://www.pickupnaald.nl/catalogsearch/result/?form_key=vAS9pfUV5dVfPqNb&q=permostat
  
 is a Milty product in a package with different graphics than what looks to be the last one from UK links, that may be stocks from the past. From what I understand, Permostat is no longer being made/available - so better hurry and stock up before is too late. 
  
Post are very apprehensive regarding chemicals. For a reason - one does not want to have on conscience XYZ souls
because some "chemicals" exploded/etc in say a plane. Better to have overreacted with restrictions than let something dangerous slipping by until is too late. As manufacturers of chemicals for record cleaning/treatment are not exactly forthcoming with formulations ( why give the plagiators all they need on a silver platter ? ), lots of similar products are simply rejected by post/customs just to stay on the safe side.


----------



## fullnine

millersvr said:


> The Bob's Devices is excellent !!
> 
> Looks like you have the new 3D printed tonearm. I was thinking of buying one myself. How does it sound compared to the standard arm?


 
 I really like the 3D arm but I wouldn't call it great value.  It works great with some carts and when it's a good match the results are epic.  But I have at least one cartridge which sounds better mounted on a stainless steel armwand, at half the price of the 3D.


----------



## AK7579

]eep said:


> I received answer very promptly. He will send to the US no problem. I do think it is wise to check postal/customs regulations prior to ordering. Milty is a small British firm that might not be available in the US. He failed to provide any possible cause though.
> 
> You could approach Acoustic sounds for any explanation. I'm sure if they know anything they will tell you, on the other hand; they are very commercial and will try to persuade you to buy through them or sell you some snakeoil alternative. My Dutch supplier is very down to earth and straight-up with 40Y of experience.


 
 I emailed Milty directly and they confirmed it is because it is deemed 'hazardous' to ship. With this in mind I do not want to have your supplied (or myself) face any issues for shipping it to the US.
  
 The company I work for has offices in Neuchatel so I may get it shipped there and then have it sent to me via inter-office mail.


----------



## IndieGradoFan

My RP40 after a year's worth of upgrades -- GrooveTracer counterweight, reference subplatter, acrylic platter, and record weight, and an Ortofon 2M black cartridge.


----------



## Silent One

Congrats...really love this shot!


----------



## analogsurviver

Collateral damage # XY? :
  

  
 Disclaimer: no affiliation with the manufacturer/seller, just thought Thorens users might find this interesating.


----------



## bbophead

indiegradofan said:


> My RP40 after a year's worth of upgrades -- GrooveTracer counterweight, reference subplatter, acrylic platter, and record weight, and an Ortofon 2M black cartridge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Silent One

This is worthy of Wall Paper right here.


----------



## ]eep

I love that RP40. I'ts like a chameleon that takes on the color of whatever LP you put on the platter. The green is a nice color for a shot like this. The Henry Mancini is a beaut too btw. 

The thing about the Permostat: I agree, that is a wise action. And it's probably old stock. So hush. I had a small stock from the '90-ies too but that didn't last too long when I started buying again. There is no reason to complain for me, I sold quite a few '70-ies rock records last month (lp's I don't like or doubles). But I scored quite well at 3 local charity 2ndH stored that had a stack of unsorted LP's at €1/LP. A lot of old '60-ies to early '70-ies EMI, Columbia, CBS, RCA, Victrola and Decca. A real treasure trove. That's one more compartment in my Ikea Expedit filled. I even bought some doubles. I know... :rolleyes: But letting them stay in the thriftstore doesn't do them any good, I think I can find them a better home. There's a lot of abuse and carelessness in those bins, young ppl interested in vinyl have no idea how to properly handle vinyl. 
Should I post some photo's? Kinda rhetorical...

About the Thorens motor demo from Hanze Hifi: I've seen and touched it IRL and is was underwhelmed. The first motor was really noisy like I've never seen before. I could feel the motor rumbling like I've never felt any TT-motor before. It was more like some loud high performance computer fan. And overall I felt like they are mostly motivated by nostalgia (and money) than by modern craftsmanship. They had (have) several totally revised TD124 but they cost in the range of €2000. There is a lot of modern, simple but thouroughly engineered TT's new and 2ndH you can buy for that money. When they started modifying you could find a nice 124 at bargain prices, but not anymore. Prices have rocketed. But if you own a Thorens and like it (which I don't) it's the way to go I suppose.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I love that RP40. I'ts like a chameleon that takes on the color of whatever LP you put on the platter. The green is a nice color for a shot like this. The Henry Mancini is a beaut too btw.
> 
> The thing about the Permostat: I agree, that is a wise action. And it's probably old stock. So hush. I had a small stock from the '90-ies too but that didn't last too long when I started buying again. There is no reason to complain for me, I sold quite a few '70-ies rock records last month (lp's I don't like or doubles). But I scored quite well at 3 local charity 2ndH stored that had a stack of unsorted LP's at €1/LP. A lot of old '60-ies to early '70-ies EMI, Columbia, CBS, RCA, Victrola and Decca. A real treasure trove. That's one more compartment in my Ikea Expedit filled. I even bought some doubles. I know...
> 
> ...


 
 +1 on above it all.
  
 Lenco 75/78 has also undergone transformation from old fashioned underdog to a non plus ultra turntable - one can spend well into 5 figures if so desired. No arm and cartridge included ... Just visit lencoheaven !


----------



## Redcarmoose

analogsurviver said:


> Collateral damage # XY? :
> 
> 
> 
> ...






This link may have been placed in this thread a couple hundred pages ago.

http://www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_td_160_dept_.htm


Still I think it is really important for an owner of a TD-160 to realize that there are much that can be done with them. Loved the sound of mine, when I owned one. I always though the TD-160s gave nice body to the thin mix on many of those early 80s albums.

Mine was stock but there must be ways of getting even more musicality out of em.


----------



## ]eep

Here is a sample of what I found last few weeks. Classical is just a sample, I've got much more gems. But the pop is kinda meagre, well I think I know why. My local record store owner is skimming as I found out. But he knows only rock, pop etc. He knows little to nothing about classical. I don't really mind because I've know him since I was a little boy and all that time he runs the best recordstore in town. He doesn't really charge too much for 2ndH vinyl (€5-7 on avg). The 3 new LP's is all I bought new (White, Burial and Zomby) and I had to use them as a filler because 9 lp's is all I scored that are worth mentioning. And to show I don't only buy 'old geezer' stuff. 



Some of the 'pop' seems a little corny, but Vera Lynn can put Diana Krall etc in her place with almost the same repertoire. Jaques Brell I have been looking for for >30Y. A 'best of ' is easy but that's not what I want. Timy Yuro is awesome too, it's from 1962 and sounds great. So does Franky Lane (Rawhide, yiiiihaw!).
Many of the classical records were from a provincial phonotheque (lp-library) with great taste and many stickers and near mint. Some others are old and played. I give them the TLC they deserve, cleaning, destickering, mending, new inner sleeve when needed and the shine like new. If they are really battered I use woodglue to clean them and that gets the most out of them. A mono LP with lots of noise still manages to sound very good strangely enough because the music is in the middle going deep and the noise is from the sides. 

It does pay to keep looking in old stuff.


----------



## bbophead

Very nice haul!
  
 Congratulations.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Here is a sample of what I found last few weeks. Classical is just a sample, I've got much more gems. But the pop is kinda meagre, well I think I know why. My local record store owner is skimming as I found out. But he knows only rock, pop etc. He knows little to nothing about classical. I don't really mind because I've know him since I was a little boy and all that time he runs the best recordstore in town. He doesn't really charge too much for 2ndH vinyl (€5-7 on avg). The 3 new LP's is all I bought new (White, Burial and Zomby) and I had to use them as a filler because 9 lp's is all I scored that are worth mentioning. And to show I don't only buy 'old geezer' stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Great selections ! 
  
 Then again, you live perhaps in the most "vinyl infected" part of the world, where vinyl was never relegated strictly to second hand shops and has  co-existed with CD even in the days when CD was crushing everything in its wake. Over here, the last shops selling new vinyl in late 80's/early 90's have cleared whatever stocks remaining at ridiculously low prices - before it was too late to get any money for them at all. At least according to their reasoning.
  
And soon after, there was unfortunately more interesting RPG than RPM (of your records ) ...


----------



## analogsurviver

Yet another collateral damage :
  
 http://www.arche-headshell.de/
  
FIRST _WARNING : __this represents (one of ) the_
_most dedicated approach(es) to vinyl analog playback I have ever seen. For obvious reasons, prices are not published - but it is not for the faint at heart. Click above link at your own peril..._
I wish I could afford gear of this calibre - and yes, some of the principles employed here are finally starting to adress the problems that have pleagued analog for ages.
I wish it could have been achieved with lesser and less costly means. Digesting the info available, how it was achieved, etc is interesting enough. Please try to avoid :
 [size=17.7777786254883px] .... but can it possibly be XY times better than my ( insert whatever you are using ) ... type comparisons. It is meant to be the best, regardless of price. Hopefully, in not too distant future, some of this technology will be able to trickle down to the level more people will be able to afford it . But even that will be select few, I am afraid. [/size]
  
 [size=17.7777786254883px]I car terms: top Ferrari looks quite plain in comparison ... - so please click on above link with that in mind; this is not for the beginner, nor for someone that can not afford it. It is obviously a lifelong [/size][size=17.7777786254883px]work of art by an uncurable perfectionist - and if this is not your cup of tea, please just disregard it. To an inquisitive mind it can provide food for thought for quite some time to come - the videos are specially illuminating.[/size]


----------



## ]eep

I did have a look at it but I can't find any prices. I suspect the arm will be between €5k an 10k? It looks kind of complicated (as in over- ) when I look at the headshell. Why not 1 pc with the armwand, much better and simpler and easier to control resonances. I can't get myself to look at the video. I'm moe into software atm, the flat and round kind.  Or square and thick to be precise. I found another nice boxset: Klemperer plays Mozart in 25 LP's NM.  I was so annoyed at missing Sym 25+40 (SAX22..) that I started looking for mozart klemperer 25 LP never expecting to find a big fat boxset at a decent price in Germany (low P&P).


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I did have a look at it but I can't find any prices. I suspect the arm will be between €5k an 10k? It looks kind of complicated (as in over- ) when I look at the headshell. Why not 1 pc with the armwand, much better and simpler and easier to control resonances. I can't get myself to look at the video. I'm moe into software atm, the flat and round kind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The only price I did find was for the headshell - on another site. EUR 395 . Others must be in the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it " category. Cartridge is/will be limited edition - I forgot the exact number, it is around 200 IIRC. I gues everything else is more or less made to order.
  
 You should both watch the video(s) and explore the site further. This man is simply incredible - and you can bet I did not enjoy reading about some concepts still "playing" in my mind as an idea already been put into reality. Hat off ! He can be accused of precision at any cost - but it would be interesting to compare his (over)complicated tonearm
 with something more down to earth - same cartridge on both mounted on the same turntable, using a single stylus for both. Both measurements and subjective .
  
 And yes, I should be hunting NM Klemperer boxed sets, too. 
  
 Trouble is, after having acustomed to master DSD recordings, the defects analog disc playback has stand out as sore thumb. And the above mentioned guy seems to have the best cure - at a punishing price. 
  
 Regarding the price for the arm : "current" "best" is Touraj's arm at some 35 K ( $ ). In that view, your predictions are a "bit" optimistic, I am afraid. Not that I approve or can even afford such prices, just sayin' where analog can bring you nowadays ...


----------



## fastharley

Talcum powder ...interesting.....I will have to give this a try.Just put a new belt on my Michelle prisma TT.now if i can find an extra main bearing and one adjuster for the motor board plate.....


----------



## analogsurviver

fastharley said:


> Talcum powder ...interesting.....I will have to give this a try.Just put a new belt on my Michelle prisma TT.now if i can find an extra main bearing and one adjuster for the motor board plate.....


 
 Tough one. Try http://www.transcriptors.eu/ - they still carry all the parts for their original design ( Michell used to produce Prisma under licence and was subcontractor for Transcriptrors prior to their own machining plant/shop ). Caution - there is a fair amount of reports people sending in turntables for refurb and/or money for parts resulting in slow action or nothing at all - as well as satisfied customers. You could also try Michell or Transrotor in Germany ( they (used to ) import/make Michell Prisma for the german market ) .  The parts you need turn up on ebay with remarkable consistency - never...


----------



## fastharley

I have been working at trying to restore my Michelle Prisma.So far I have a very nice SME type 3 arm i discovered,I also got rid of the spindly supporting legs and built a much better wooden base with adjustable feet.At the moment I am running a Grado gold pickup.I am hoping I can find a speed control plate for the motor.It seems I was careless with the current one and managed to break the 45 rpm adjuster.The 33 works well tho.I found someone to set up the new arm...and the TT seems wonderful compared to my old TD 160.


----------



## fastharley

and the best part is you can nuke your dinner while listening to your favorite disk..(untill it melts that is....)


----------



## analogsurviver

Not exactly a picture, and even more so not a turntable - but for all of those who have not seen it before - here some good clean fun:


----------



## fastharley

Nice collection of vinyl...and so well organized.
 Jim


----------



## bbophead

LOVE that!


----------



## ]eep

"Slut vinyl" 
This is not virgin vinyl, this is slut vinyl. 
Fortunately the Fiedler Gerswin I just got today and that I'm listening to right now is more like 'old spinster vinyl'. Old but never been 'used'. It's not the RCA Living Stereo but Victrola vics 1308, nevertheless very good. And with 2 bonussongs. I also got an old Karajan/Vienna - Brahms 1 original RCA Living stereo where the cover was totally worn, top split through all the way, edges frayed, but the record is Ex. And what a sound! Wow.


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> "Slut vinyl"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Excellent as usual!


----------



## ]eep

I've been doing some cleaning. Now I don't want to sounds like a Proctor & Gamble or Unilever commercial. But, how the heck do I clean this? I've bought an old Victrola lp, and while it's in excellent condition (sleeve as well as vinyl) it has these spots on the surface that nag me. They are not really audible but when I look at it with my tiny microscope (60x jewel tester) it looks like a dam with black debris, fibres (red?) and white sticks and flakes. 

Sorry I can't photograph that. I did a macroshot though.

It's like spatter, maybe stamper residu? Anyone recognise this? And how the blazes do I get rid of it. Mind you, this is a mean angle to photograph a disc since it has a spotlight on it that shows every dustparticle like a boulder on the road. But I guarantee you that the grooves are clean (except those spots of course). I've cleaned it twice on the Okki Nokki with soap while brushing well and with woodglue! Look at this; you can see what kept stuck in the glue even from a distance.

The images are 1200x1800 and not retouched (clickable).

Oops, I forgot the pun on the title.  The record is The Nutcracker by Fritz Reiner and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. It's a real ballbreaker. Get it? nutcracker... ballbreaker... oh :rolleyes:


----------



## Skylab

Who knows man...you're talking about a Victrola LP!!! Those things were played caked in dirt with a cactus quill for a needle.


----------



## fastharley

Yes I remember those ones well.I even used a sewing needle one time on an old deck i had....tHE GOOD OLD DAYS WHEN YOU USED WHATEVER YOU HAD LAYING AROUND TO MAKE SOMETHING WORK...


----------



## scott hifi

our Turntable


----------



## ]eep

Nice gear, ugly photograph. The Traveller is beautifull.
But this way it looks like Megan Fox did a selfie at Radioshack on a bad hair day. Put some effort into it; make a picture at daylight, indirect light, and as little distraction in the background as possible (cables, plugs and other gear). Closer up and lower down. Streetview instead of satellite map. And no "Moulin Rouge' carpet! 
"Hey sugapuff, want to check your powah tools in my boudouar?" 



> I even used a sewing needle one time on an old deck i had



Yeah, did that too. Needle in a postcard and just hold it on the record. I even remember which single we tortured: KC and the Sunshine Band - That's the way I like it. Yeah, 1975 it was. Erm, almost 40y ago... Oh crap, why do I even remember that. I'm getting soooo old.


----------



## Anavel0

I believe that's a Nomad. You can kind of see the volume knob in the bottom left corner.


----------



## scott hifi

yeah our 2 year old and 6 year old make it so the VPI nomad have to go in the closet when they are awake.... sorry for the crappy picture only one i had on my phone.
  
 we hook up the nomad with a 2m Blue ortofon on it to a Cary HH1 tube headphone amp to run our LCD-2's.


----------



## scott hifi

lol thats our tablecloth on the kitchen table/listening space =)


----------



## scott hifi

this any better?

 shows the front of the HH-1 better


----------



## bbophead

scott hifi said:


> this any better?
> 
> shows the front of the HH-1 better


 
  
   





>


 
 I'll bet that TelArc LP shows off the bass on those LCD-2s.  Which Grados are those?


----------



## scott hifi

those are the original 225's they work right out of the Nomad just fine the Audeze need more drive


----------



## Delirious Lab

I love that Star Tracks album - one of the first CD's I ever had.  It's a great way to showcase one's system...


----------



## Moolok

I'm slowly getting into the world of turntables. Here's my current unit which I got from thrift store for 6,5 euros. It's Fisher MT-30 semiautomatic. 





Of corse I had to invest some more euros to get a new stylus and a belt. Now it works perfectly and sounds very nice (considering it's low-fi).


----------



## bbophead

moolok said:


> I'm slowly getting into the world of turntables. Here's my current unit which I got from thrift store for 6,5 euros. It's Fisher MT-30 semiautomatic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Lookin' good!


----------



## Moolok

bbophead said:


> Lookin' good!


 
 Thanks 
  
 It's currently connected to an old stereo system which have some minor technical problems due to lack of use since late 80's or early 90's (the left channel comes and goes occasionally). But my Yamaha AV receiver doesn't have phone stage so I can't use it with turntable until it get a phone preamp with RIAA. For starters I ordered the TCC TC-450 phone preamp (it can be used with mains adapter or 9V battery in case the mains causes humming or other interference).
  
 After that I can ditch the old system and use the turntable with the rest of my setup. Which includes some now all but obsolete gear like MiniDisc & DCC tape deck.


----------



## bbophead

moolok said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > Lookin' good!
> ...


 

 You might try spraying some tuner cleaner in the volume control and/or just twist the volume control back and forth.  Sometimes this will clear up the intermittent volume problem.  No doubt it is dirty inside.


----------



## Moolok

bbophead said:


> You might try spraying some tuner cleaner in the volume control and/or just twist the volume control back and forth.  Sometimes this will clear up the intermittent volume problem.  No doubt it is dirty inside.


 
 Actually I already have done that. I opened her up and sprayed electronics cleaner on all pots and switches twisting and turning and pressing them vigorously. And while I was at it I dusted the insides also with canned air. To no avail unfortunately. I think the problem lies on dried electrolytic capacitors or some such. And there's no point in replacing those since the amp isn't excatly worth much.


----------



## bbophead

Understood.


----------



## Eee Pee

This was at the RMAF show this last weekend.  iFi bamboo.


----------



## analogsurviver

eee pee said:


> This was at the RMAF show this last weekend.  iFi bamboo.


 
 This is Tri Art : http://www.atelier13-usa.com/#!tri-art-audio/cfav
  
 These guys at iFi know frighteningly much for a single company - and are capable of bringing to the market some _really _* *serious table. But not just of now.


----------



## Eee Pee

You know frighteningly too much about turntables, et al. for a single person.


----------



## Anavel0

analogsurviver said:


> This is Tri Art : http://www.atelier13-usa.com/#!tri-art-audio/cfav
> 
> These guys at iFi know frighteningly much for a single company - and are capable of bringing to the market some _really _* *serious table. But not just of now.


Maybe it's because they're part of AMR? Lots of trickle down stuff from the very high end.


----------



## analogsurviver

anavel0 said:


> Maybe it's because they're part of AMR? Lots of trickle down stuff from the very high end.


 
 Maybe. But as I see it, perhaps the boldest decisions get to see the light under the budget iFi banner.


----------



## Anavel0

analogsurviver said:


> Maybe. But as I see it, perhaps the boldest decisions get to see the light under the budget iFi banner.


I certainly do not disagree.


----------



## bbophead

iFI seems to be a brilliant bunch of ideas.
  
 I'm trying not to be surprised by anything they market.
  
 Turntable?  
  
 I could do that.


----------



## analogsurviver

anavel0 said:


> I certainly do not disagree.


 
 They are intelligent - even *if* some bold new idea in an iFi product fails to establish itself, it is not the AMR to get the blame. If it works, what better than to adopt the "illigimate" child in the next AMR family product - with all the bells and whistles.
  
 And they are intelligent enough not to insist on high end only; 0x 50000 is infinitely less than 1000x 200 ...


----------



## longbowbbs

eee pee said:


> This was at the RMAF show this last weekend.  iFi bamboo.


 

 This was a very cool table to look at. I did not get a listen. The small 2 channel speaker and integrated next to it were cool too.


----------



## AK7579

They had that at CAS this year back in August. It sounded very nice to my beginner ears


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> iFI seems to be a brilliant bunch of ideas.
> 
> I'm trying not to be surprised by anything they market.
> 
> ...


 
 They _*did *_kind of announce what they are after in a turntable ( in nano or micro iDSD thread(s) here on HF IIRC ) - something every manufacturer of turntables in history
 ( with the notable exception of one generally NOT associated with turntables - proverbially confirming the rule ) so far has failed at.
  
It is a part of my avatar ... 



...
  
The use of "some other make" TT at the current shows I see nothing but a stopgap measure prior to introducing their own.


----------



## analogsurviver

longbowbbs said:


> This was a very cool table to look at. I did not get a listen. The small 2 channel speaker and integrated next to it were cool too.


 
 It is called the iFi Retro system : https://www.facebook.com/iFiAudio
  
 Ifi's modern take on the venerable LS3/5A theme originally designed by the BBC - 4 decades ago - married to some of the absolutely latest in computer audio, everything clad into retro looks.


----------



## analogsurviver

Collateral damage #? : two of the most extreme pics of turntables yet seen ( relegating the top VPI as the third one in the link to a mere also run ) :
  
 http://www.oobject.com/category/most-extreme-turntables/


----------



## longbowbbs

analogsurviver said:


> longbowbbs said:
> 
> 
> > This was a very cool table to look at. I did not get a listen. The small 2 channel speaker and integrated next to it were cool too.
> ...


 

 I would expect it to sell really well. Great sound, looks and functionality in a nice compact system.


----------



## ]eep

It's a neat package alright, but I don't expect it to -really- affordable. It's clearly Chinese made but it has definitely better engineering ideas. But that is what probably makes it expensive. 

And frankly, as a former proud owner of a pair of original Rogers LS3/5a 16Ohm loudspeakers, the LS3.5 name is a freeloader plagiary stealing the glory of a tried and tested formula. Just like the big blue Armoni towel I own. Nothing really wrong with the towel, but it's clearly a Turkish knockoff. I know how the industry works, especially Chinese audio (I have quite some experience in buying, using and modifying Chinese audio gear). I think this is a great concept, but I reckon it'll cost around $1500. In China this would cost a mere $400. 
And a EL34 is really the most basic entrypoint tube I can think of. It is a tube and it delivers a lot of power for a cheap tube, but it is one of my least favorite tubes around. What is between their (famous?) dac and this amp makes a lot of difference. 

But the set looks nice.


----------



## rmullins08

Saw an article somewhere that had it at 1500 GBP


----------



## bbophead

Quote: 





]eep said:


> It's a neat package alright, but I don't expect it to -really- affordable. It's clearly Chinese made but it has definitely better engineering ideas. But that is what probably makes it expensive.
> 
> And frankly, as a former proud owner of a pair of original Rogers LS3/5a 16Ohm loudspeakers, the LS3.5 name is a freeloader plagiary stealing the glory of a tried and tested formula. Just like the big blue Armoni towel I own. Nothing really wrong with the towel, but it's clearly a Turkish knockoff. I know how the industry works, especially Chinese audio (I have quite some experience in buying, using and modifying Chinese audio gear). I think this is a great concept, but I reckon it'll cost around $1500. In China this would cost a mere $400.
> And a EL34 is really the most basic entrypoint tube I can think of. It is a tube and it delivers a lot of power for a cheap tube, but it is one of my least favorite tubes around. What is between their (famous?) dac and this amp makes a lot of difference.
> ...


 

 Fine.  So, move to China.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Fine.  So, move to China.


 
 NOT soooo fine - when you have to shorten the cycling race due to smog as in recent Tour of Beijing ...
  
 I read they had to enforce the most rigorous car emission policy in the world - when you have Chinese Number of cars pouring in big industrial centres each day for work, this is no picnic !


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > Fine.  So, move to China.
> ...


 

 Yeah, but if you really want cheap stuff ..........................


----------



## ]eep

So I was right about the 1500, only the currency wrong. Thats €1900 or almost $2500. Like I said; not exactly cheap in my book. And probably not exactly high end in my book either, rather a first brushing.

And why would I move to China when there is Ebay and Taobao, Aliexpress etc? I know this is not the right thread, but Chinese audio can be had a lot cheaper than the regular brands in the B&M stores. I don't mind them 'globalizing', outsourcing or w/e you want to call it when mfg is done in China under western management, QC etc. but I also see products that are engineered and made in China and rebranded with a 1000% price premium (yes, 10x the price) for sale in the West. One example; Red Rose Audio (from the person M. Levinson, Mr Catrall , not the company).


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> So I was right about the 1500, only the currency wrong. Thats €1900 or almost $2500. Like I said; not exactly cheap in my book. And probably not exactly high end in my book either, rather a first brushing.
> 
> And why would I move to China when there is Ebay and Taobao, Aliexpress etc? I know this is not the right thread, but Chinese audio can be had a lot cheaper than the regular brands in the B&M stores. I don't mind them 'globalizing', outsourcing or w/e you want to call it when mfg is done in China under western management, QC etc. but I also see products that are engineered and made in China and rebranded with a 1000% price premium (yes, 10x the price) for sale in the West. One example; Red Rose Audio (from the person M. Levinson, Mr Catrall
> 
> ...


 
currency converter


----------



## rmullins08

bbophead said:


> currency converter


 
 1500 British Pound Sterling equals
 1887.34 Euro
  
1887.34 Euro equals
2408.04 US Dollar

 

No issues with the math.  Just a bit of rounding.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> So I was right about the 1500, only the currency wrong. Thats €1900 or almost $2500. Like I said; not exactly cheap in my book. And probably not exactly high end in my book either, rather a first brushing.
> 
> And why would I move to China when there is Ebay and Taobao, Aliexpress etc? I know this is not the right thread, but Chinese audio can be had a lot cheaper than the regular brands in the B&M stores. I don't mind them 'globalizing', outsourcing or w/e you want to call it when mfg is done in China under western management, QC etc. but I also see products that are engineered and made in China and rebranded with a 1000% price premium (yes, 10x the price) for sale in the West. One example; Red Rose Audio (from the person M. Levinson, Mr Catrall
> 
> ...


 
 Well, iFi Audio is NOT a rebranded made in Anyplace - it is outsourced to chinese manufacturer(s) under close supervision of HQ in England (AMR).  iFi is building a rather unique bussiness model - _*crowd designing. *_Just check the iFi Audio micro iDSD DAC thread(s) here on HF - it will be soon clear they really offer not only good value, but in some ways design features not available anyplace else - for a reasonable coin.  It is micro (more or less ) that is the "brain" of the Retro - and many companies would, provided they were capable of doing it in the first place, charge for the DAC alone similar to what ifi charges for an (average?) tube amp and a quite nice pair of speakers thrown into the mix.
  
 And yes, the first (and last...) time I heard Red Rose it was the sound I strive to escape from ASAP. Somewhat different than old ML gear ...


----------



## Moolok

Not a turntable but RIAA phono preamp for turntable use: TCC TC-450.
















I have not tried it yet so no idea how it sounds.


----------



## fastharley

In the process of trying yo restore a beautiful Michell Prisma...but parts are so hard to find/
I would like to find a spare main bearing and spindle assy. as well as a spare motor/The original legs had lost their spring and I made a base and hand oiled the wood.Planning on upgrading the Grado gold pickup soon


----------



## analogsurviver

fastharley said:


> In the process of trying yo restore a beautiful Michell Prisma...but parts are so hard to find/
> I would like to find a spare main bearing and spindle assy. as well as a spare motor/The original legs had lost their spring and I made a base and hand oiled the wood.Planning on upgrading the Grado gold pickup soon


 
 IIRC I did tell you where/how parts can be obtained.
  
 Transcriptors Reference Hydraulic/Electronic > under licence from Transcriptors: Michell Prisma Hydraulic/Electronic > under license from Michel ? (Transcriptors ? )
 in Germany - Transrotor AC ( these are units made in UK rebadged  : http://www.fairaudio.de/artikel/2014-firmenberichte/transrotor-raeke-hifi-firmengeschichte-artikel-2.html ) - so checking ebay - and specially ebay.de makes sense. I have seen spindle assy about a month ago on ebay.de, but so far have not seen any main bearings for ANY Transcriptors/etc sold separately. It may have been available from the seller of this http://www.ebay.de/itm/Michell-transcription-turntable-platter-mint-/141425900803?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20eda3fd03 - but by now only the platter and main plinth are still available. 
  
 Transcriptors Reference is being refurbished if nothing else for its looks - and is highly sought after and valued accordingly. If you use something like http://www.ebay.de/itm/ISOKINETIK-ISOMAT-1-ACRYLIC-TURNTABLE-MAT-IDEAL-FOR-TRANSCRIPTORS-MICHELLL-/231359345343?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables&hash=item35de1772bf with it ( available from few other mfg as well ) and on good support, it can sound astonisingly good with a high(er) compliance cartridge - SME III is no slouch in this case and SME III is one of the few arms available that can tame the proverbiably hard-to-tame Grado; a (near) perfectly stable operation is always achievable, even for the notorius Signature series that tend(ed) to misbehave in practically anything
 but Grado's own arm until SME III came along.
  
 The most iconic scene featuring Transcriptors Hydraulic ( which David Gammon, the main force behind Transcriptors, gave to Stanley Kubrick for the purpose of filming the movie - and never saw it again; yet it was THE best and most successful commercial for a turntable - EVER !!! ):


----------



## Moolok

Here's my turntable and receiver with phono preamp. 




They are on a kitchen table for testing. Preamp works nicely. Sound is good and clear. RIAA works as intended. Amplifier could be a bit more powerful but it does it's job. It runs without any issues both 9V battery and 12V PSU.


----------



## analogsurviver

Not a picture per se, but from this link http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/rocky-mountain-audio-fest-2014-analog-and-solid-state-electronics/?utm_campaign=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=email-303 you can see and research more about the first modern era _*optical *_ phono cartridges available outside Japan. 
  
 Some might remember optical carts of the past - Toshiba C-100P http://www.vinylengine.com/library/aurex-toshiba/c-100p.shtml - and Kenwood also had a similar unit at about the same time. 40+ years of technological advance have obviously produced conditions for reintroduction of optical cartridge. The advantages over any magnetic cartridge, be it moving magnet or moving coil, are GREAT - the most significant one is the absence of hysteresis that is a part of anything involving electromagnetic induction.
  
 Original optical cartridges used bulbs as a light source; many bulbs (and hence carts...) died before the diamond was worn out - and at the anything but inconsiderable cost that more or less sealed the fate of optical cartridges in the market.
  
 And then there was LED ...


----------



## ]eep

As I recall there was a rather annoying and persistent problem with optical readout of vinyl grooves. Your records need to be meticulously clean because every spec of dust is picked up. But this seems different because tracking is done with a normal stylus and the motion of the cantilever translates to some optical density variation. There will be wear (not much but still more than zero with optical readout) and mass/resonance tuning still remains. But no moving coil/magnet. And the mass/stiffness issue of the cartridge remains. It would be even better if they adopted the Decca topography. I think tip and stylus still make up a very big part part of cartridge quality (arguable). 

I got a nice surprise yesterday. I won an auction on Ebay for a nice little bunch of records, 3 boxes and some 30 titles in total. All classical from the late '50-early '70 for only $50 incl P&P. 2 of them were the same as I grew up with as a child (hifi festival 1 and Tchaikovsky 1-Scherkassky), my father played them close to grey. I cleaned them with the woodglue method, better but still a bit of campfire experience. So now I have new copies. 







Many cream/gold Columbia and 3 Decca boxsets. I even received 7 lp's extra, and no junk either, sort of in line with the rest! Wow! (ok, 1 is an epic fail. One of the worst records I ever heard; a ballroom Mozart by some unknown German ensemble) Not everyone on Ebay is just out for profit. 

And another auction I won for 10GBP (100 classical titles 31.5kg! P&P is 75GBP!) is coming on monday. I got a Fedex notice in the mail twice I 'wasn't home' while I was home all day!:mad: Don't you just hate that? My intercom is from the same 'ACME' company Wily Coyote always orders from I suppose...


----------



## bbophead

Nice haul for a nice price.  Congratulations!


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> As I recall there was a rather annoying and persistent problem with optical readout of vinyl grooves. Your records need to be meticulously clean because every spec of dust is picked up. But this seems different because tracking is done with a normal stylus and the motion of the cantilever translates to some optical density variation. There will be wear (not much but still more than zero with optical readout) and mass/resonance tuning still remains. But no moving coil/magnet. And the mass/stiffness issue of the cartridge remains. It would be even better if they adopted the Decca topography. I think tip and stylus still make up a very big part part of cartridge quality (arguable).
> 
> I got a nice surprise yesterday. I won an auction on Ebay for a nice little bunch of records, 3 boxes and some 30 titles in total. All classical from the late '50-early '70 for only $50 incl P&P. 2 of them were the same as I grew up with as a child (hifi festival 1 and Tchaikovsky 1-Scherkassky), my father played them close to grey. I cleaned them with the woodglue method, better but still a bit of campfire experience. So now I have new copies.
> 
> ...


 

*NO problems *with the optical *signal generating principle *(instead of magnetic ) - the cartridge still has stylus, cantilever, bearing/suspension - only instead of magnets or coils there are optical "screens" that modulate the photo electrical generator of one sort or another. The problems with purely optical reading and record cleanliness are here a non-issue.
  
 Here the blast from the past that is STILL wet analog dreams of those who dare to dream to these heights - presented to the Western World in Berlin, early 70s (1971), with actual measurements of the whole system ( cartridge, dedicated preamp ( NOT a conventional phono stage ), arm/table ) made by the French 
  http://www.audiovintage.fr/leforum/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=8725&start=10
 Particularly noteworthy is the square wave response - maybe it has been duplicated by now, but most definitely not by anything yet mentioned here on HF.
  
 Think - this is more than 40 years "old" technology ... - and will still have most of what is available on the market today, regardless of cost, for breakfast. Only now it has been brought up to date !
  
 That ACME is probably working allright; courrier services "like" to "deliver while you were not at home" enough times (varies from company to company)  in order to be able to leave a note you can pick up the delivery at their depot - they sure like to spare their back better than customer's ...
  
 Enjoy cleanin' and spinnin' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 For non French speaking/reading : http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=6226


----------



## parbaked

Not a TT but I've been playing with an interesting new amp that uses Cinemag step up transformers instead of tubes or transistors for voltage gain.

 ECP Black Diamond...really nice...


----------



## analogsurviver

parbaked said:


> Not a TT but I've been playing with an interesting new amp that uses Cinemag step up transformers instead of tubes or transistors for voltage gain.
> 
> ECP Black Diamond...really nice...


 
 Intersting - although I do NOT usually like transformers, this unusual implementation made me curious. I would appreciate some feedback once the "honeymoon" phase is over, if compared to some known good conventional amp - even better .


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## analogsurviver

Collateral damage # xy? (from 
 http://www.avforums.co.za/index.php?topic=34024.0


----------



## ]eep

I must say, I don't really care that much what happens to my stereo when I join the heavenly choir. :rolleyes:

I use a tranny too for my Koetsu Urushi. An Audio Innovations series 1000. I bought it because my amp then (AI series 500 EL34 Penth) had an MM phono input. It cost me an arm and a leg then (fl 2000 for the MC1000 and fl4000 for the AI500) and worked like a charm on LS3/5a's. The AT-OC9 wasn't supposed to work on the Linn Axis' (Jp made) Akito arm, the tranny is problematic, tubes are no good, impossible to power the puny LS3/5a's with a 25W tube-amp. All sorts of things wrong with my system according to the guru's of that day. But even though I didn't really know what I was doing then (in hindsight) I had a vision and gut-feeling that what I had read about everything and understood of it, it should work. And it did! And now, 25y later, ALL these components have cult-status (maybe not the Axis TT but I couldn't afford the LP12). 

I never had any problems matching carts to the tranny, but that is because they were all low impedance carts; AT OC9; Kiseki Blue; DV Karat 17DMkII, Koetsu. I never tried or wanted a Denon MC or eqv. ATM I am using the tranny ICW a heavenly (pun alert) modified Jolida JD9. I did try to take the tranny out of the loop since the Jolida simply has _such _ a high amplificationfactor and plenty matching ability (three opamps in a row + tubestage). I have tried any configuration I could think of but the stripped bare Jolida (only 2 opamps, no tubes, removed input+output board, PiO caps, non RIAA filters removed) combined with the MC1000 runs rings around anything I know or ever had. I can even combine it with the lowly Yaqin MS22 2xECC83 (modified of course) and it will shatter many a phono-amp out there. It can really make the €150 MS22 do justice to the €5k Koetsu.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I must say, I don't really care that much what happens to my stereo when I join the heavenly choir.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I agree 25W of HSD (hollow state device) power will not bring LS3/5As to life. They are a vicious load - around 65 (!) ohm at some frequenciies IIRC - and that takes voltage(s) any low powered amp just can not provide. One reasonable solution is Quad 405 - as it was meant for the Quad ESL ( now known better under Quad 57 name ) that also has heroic impedance swings. I gave up in the end - as only Phase Linear 700B was "powerful enough" to drive these little boxes without clipping, limitation , etc. That 700B was a loaner and after it departed back to its owner, I reluctantly let the LS3/5A go to places with enough power. It will still not sound any bigger/bolder/bassier with that much power - but whatever comes out, WILL be clean ( short of mechanically overloading the small woofer ). Once a well recorded choir is heard on LS3/5a's powered properly, it is difficult to go back to screechy amps.
  
 Tranny = transformer - _correcto ? _There is one use of tranny I feel is justified - 1 ohm (or less ) impedance phono cartridges, due to the fact that secondary of the transformer has input impedance squared, it means the resistance ( and thermal noise it represents ) can get quite high with matching high(ish) impedance MC carts - like Denons. 40 ohms squared = 1600 ohms ; that is quite high impedance > thermal noise ) presented to the normal phono stage.
 1 squared remains 1 - and 1 ohm carts trough matching transformer will enjoy signal to noise ratio second to none - even if they have 0.1 mV or thereabout output voltage. It begins its life "only" 1600 times quieter than in the above admittedly worst case scenario.
  
 However - transformers introduce hysteresis . Magnetic cartridges too. It is quite cruel to hear a direct to disk (or really WELL recorded digital ) LP with a hysteresis free cartridge - preferably on hysteresis free rest of the system ( least expensive: electrostatic headphones driven by high voltage amp, not normal amp + transformer combo ). Most analog recorded records were made to tape - and that also has hysteresis, therefore they do not not reveal the shortcomings of magnetic carts as ruthlessly as direct to disk or good digital LPs do. That is "saving grace" - and the reason hysteresis is not stressed as much as it would otherwise have to be. Better magnetic carts manage to have hysteresis effects on a par with analog tape recordings - and it goes mostly "unnoticed".
  
 Until the best possible scenario mentioned above does get a chance. Pity that  recordings that do justice to such a system are so few and so far apart - making it almost meaningless in real world.
  
 But almost never catches a rabitt...


----------



## analogsurviver

In an attempt to present to the "advanced beginners in analog on tight(er) budget" a vintage turntable that does punch above its "cost", I got myself recently this:
  

  
 It is a Telefunken S600 belt driven DC motor powered German TT from mid 70s - here seen in "mock up" setting with Grace G-707 arm I had lying around for at very least 15 years - one of the few arms that can be mounted to S600 without "surgery" to the TT itself. As S500/600 is meant for 9" arms (229 mm effective lenght ) ( originally Ortofon AS212 was fitted to these decks - and as AS212 is quite a desirable arm, MANY Telefunkens get cannibalized in the process and can be bought armless for really friendly price ) , that meant 237 mm effective lenght Grace arm had to be shortened one way or another; I chose to replace Grace's plastic-not-so-great-headshell with a headshell from a Visonik ( CEC produced ) arm to get the geometry right. A more readily available option to upgrade Grace G 707 with better headshell is the headshell from the Hadcock unipivot arm - but that headshell alone costs approx 60 GBP + shipping etc. 
  
 There have been unfortunately LOTS of problems until today the above finally started playing some music - if you are not familiar with vintage electronic restoration or do not have a friend or some good pro to do it for you at a reasonable price - it is better to stay away.  However, once up and running properly, these Telefunken tables can teach Thorens 14X/16X and similar a thing or two - it is still early in the day (literally ... ) - but I can see why so many, understandably European and mostly German audiophiles often select S500/600 ( basically same thing save for colour, S500 silver, S600 black ) as a reasonably priced quality turntable. That about price
 outside Germany looses much of its appeal - those "no longer German speaking S500/600s" tend to get pricey after they are no longer in their _Heimat ._
  
 In many ways, this is quite flawed TT according to modern standards. Yet it does basics well enough for someone who is willing and able to restore and maybe even perform some not so hard to do mods to give it a serious consideration vs modern deck at a similar price. That "similar" can be quite steeeeeetchy - so I decided I will
 record everything ( or at least the most important ) things done to this deck to the DSD - both technical signals and music. If you are after plug and play solution, skip these posts altogether - but if you are not and can find some pride in salvaging a piece of audio history from the scrapyard while allowing it still/once again giving decent service, read on.
  
 Unfortunately, I do not have the time I would like to devote to this project, but I hope the posts will not be too far in between.


----------



## bbophead

Unique looking deck.  Congratulations!


----------



## ]eep

You can trow all the math at it you like. In the end all that matters is how it sounds, and in my experience, the MC1000 step-up + MM stage beats any MC-phono I ever tried. Don't forget that if you don't use a transformer you will have to use something else. Maybe a transformer is not perfect, nothing is perfect, but there is always a tradeoff. You have to weigh alternatives. I understand that a transformer depends on the quality of the coils and the core. But it is a passive component and it character is known. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't (_said when you think it is wiser to deal with someone or something familiar, although you do not like him, her, or it, than to deal with someone or something you do not know that might be worse_). An active component- in my experience anyway- is always much worse. 
If I would have gone by all the advice I heard I would still be using solid state equipment, cd only and conventional speakers with dome tweeters (and bell-wire for cables). And lost all interest 20 years ago.

By the way (offtopic), the AI series 500 amp had a 16 Ohm output but the 8 Ohm output was much preferable with the LS3/5a. You can launch all the theory you like but my ears don't fool me. I originally used a very powerful 50W transistor amp (the Cyrus 2 was no slouch) but the puny AI-500 with 'only' 25W@8 Ohm made it sound weak and unimaginative. And my current 300B would be even worse. Like I said, sometimes all the advice and specs can tell you otherwise, you need to go with your gut sometimes, and _always_ trust your ears. 

I like that TT btw.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Unique looking deck.  Congratulations!


 
 It is about as unique as say a Pioneer PL-12. Only Pioneer was global in pre-global times, Telefunken did not get exported much outside Germany. But it was a very strong _Lokalmatador _- all imports ( Thorens included, although by about that time production that moved from Switzerland to Germany a decade ago was well established ) had to face the solid German engineering and persuading Germans to buy imports from Japan and elsewhere vs domestic equipment was harder than it is today. 
  
 I have seen it sporadically in homes of more knowledgeable and down to earth people who travelled to Germany - who could not afford say a Sondek. It does have its ills and quirks, but it always played good tune. It is a very _rational _deck - taking into account what are the actual real world performances of vinyl records ( Telefunken Decca = TELDEC was a major player in vinyl production ) and building a deck that will do them justice at a still reasonable price. That is not to say it was cheap - S500 mounted Shure M91ED and S600 Shure V15III as standard  cartridges. I will have to look for the prices from say 1976-78 and comparisons - how much did say a Technics 1200/1210 cost back then - but I expect them to be quite close. 
  
 What is unique is only pairing with Grace G 707 arm - which was the arm of choice for the Linn Sondek prior to the introduction of their own Ittok arm. Some of the Linn sold Grace arms did have a different counterweight of larger diameter - and although Ittok was an improvement on all fronts, that is not to say the Grace was a slouch. Despite being a low mass arm, it is quite capable with low(er) compliance MCs - much more so than say SME 3009 S2 .


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> You can trow all the math at it you like. In the end all that matters is how it sounds, and in my experience, the MC1000 step-up + MM stage beats any MC-phono I ever tried. Don't forget that if you don't use a transformer you will have to use something else. Maybe a transformer is not perfect, nothing is perfect, but there is always a tradeoff. You have to weigh alternatives. I understand that a transformer depends on the quality of the coils and the core. But it is a passive component and it character is known. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't (_said when you think it is wiser to deal with someone or something familiar, although you do not like him, her, or it, than to deal with someone or something you do not know that might be worse_). An active component- in my experience anyway- is always much worse.
> If I would have gone by all the advice I heard I would still be using solid state equipment, cd only and conventional speakers with dome tweeters (and bell-wire for cables). And lost all interest 20 years ago.
> 
> By the way (offtopic), the AI series 500 amp had a 16 Ohm output but the 8 Ohm output was much preferable with the LS3/5a. You can launch all the theory you like but my ears don't fool me. I originally used a very powerful 50W transistor amp (the Cyrus 2 was no slouch) but the puny AI-500 with 'only' 25W@8 Ohm made it sound weak and unimaginative. And my current 300B would be even worse. Like I said, sometimes all the advice and specs can tell you otherwise, you need to go with your gut sometimes, and _always_ trust your ears.
> ...


 
 I agree that it sound is what matters in the end. If it does not sound good, all the theories behind it have overlooked at least one thing - usually more. It takes a lot of tweaking for an amp to start sounding good - even if on paper it looks the same in pure scientific terms.
  
 I like your _Devil you know _ approach. It is most commonly used in aeronautics - new airframe powered by a proven motor, or vice versa - but NOT both at the same time. That was undoing of many otherwise in theory very valid designs - teething troubles grounded them - for good. 
  
 Regarding amps - it is NOT watt spec only - what matters is voltage and current capability into real world load. Very few speakers do behave as constant resistance ( some that do can sound quite great deal better than usual with much greater selection of amps ) - LS3/5a is a tough nut to crack, particularly the original design I had :
 http://www.stereophile.com/content/bbc-ls35a-loudspeaker-1989-follow - the later versions almost halved the impedance peaks, rendering the speaker much more compatible with broader selection of amps. No wonder your tube amp fared better than on paper twice as powerful solid state - tubes usually operate at higher voltages (but lower current ) and that is what is needed to drive the original old high impedance version of the LS3/5a. That massive brute of Phase Linear 700B had everything in excess thus never taxed beyond its capabilities - and was surprisingly not that much worse at lower volumes either.  
  
 I am glad they managed to get more or less the same performance with far more normal/affordable amplifiers in the later versions of the LS3/5a. Particularly as the peak in impedance occurs at approx 100 Hz, where there is the lion's share of power required for a speaker of this size.


----------



## Redcarmoose




----------



## bbophead

redcarmoose said:


>


 
 I must confess, I don't know what that is.


----------



## Eee Pee

That's the table that uses beluga sturgeon caviar for added weight.  Caspian 1200 I think it's called.


----------



## Redcarmoose

bbophead said:


> I must confess, I don't know what that is.


 
 http://blog.audiogon.com/2012/10/05/audiogon-featured-audiophile-october-2012-kellyp/


----------



## analogsurviver

eee pee said:


> That's the table that uses beluga sturgeon caviar for added weight.  Caspian 1200 I think it's called.


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> eee pee said:
> 
> 
> > That's the table that uses beluga sturgeon caviar for added weight.  Caspian 1200 I think it's called.


 

 And it smells ALL NIGHT LONG!


----------



## analogsurviver

redcarmoose said:


>


 
 I figured out it is lead shot and it is upside down. And plumbing indicated something with pressure or/and vacuum.
  
 But why, after going to these lenght, "destroy" dampening of sand and lead shot by tar is beyond me. It is a one of labour of love, so why not going that extra mile and simply sealing each (or group) of lead/sand shot by another layer of wood ? Otherwise, GREAT table for the ET2 !


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> And it smells ALL NIGHT LONG!


 
 THE smell I associate with audio is the smell of the Infinity speakers - from about 1978 or so period .  Although they did in all those years loose some of it, I can still smell it and will usually identify their presence before seeing or hearing them. 
  
 Funny - otherwise my smell perception approximates - zero !


----------



## ]eep

I thought it was supposed to be something portable.  

I worked in a plastic factory once (R&D) where they made parts for crash test dummies. They used something similar for certain parts; flexible +weight approximating human tissue. But they used silicone rubber. To bad I couldn't take some spares, they were very labour intensive to make. 

I got some good SAX today at a bargain price... 12GBP for 3x  
They are Columbia 3rd Ed magic notes of Klemperer Mozart Symphonies 35 - 41: 3 Stereo LPs. And to celebrate I went to 2 2ndH stores and found 2 great Decca SXL's and and 3 EMI/Columbia/Electrola's. And some other 'classics'; EW&F I am and Supertramp Crime ot Century, all in really excellent condition and at €1/pc. These are to make someone else happy (and me some $) since I already own some nice copies. But the classics are sort of a byproduct from downloading all those great classic albums. First because I like the recordings better on LP, second because I like the original coverart, and also to sort of justify the downloads. Oh, and I forgot the smell of old cardboard that I connect to the nostalgic memory of Christmas.


----------



## Redcarmoose

analogsurviver said:


> I figured out it is lead shot and it is upside down. And plumbing indicated something with pressure or/and vacuum.
> 
> But why, after going to these lenght, "destroy" dampening of sand and lead shot by tar is beyond me. It is a one of labour of love, so why not going that extra mile and simply sealing each (or group) of lead/sand shot by another layer of wood ? Otherwise, GREAT table for the ET2 !





The only thing that bugged me was how, when finished the whole system was placed on a ten inch wide rail in the middle of the house. Maybe a controlled environment but still, with that odd time a drunk contractor comes over to do some home improvements with that work belt flying around?:eek:

For whatever reason I could not look at the picture? Guess I love audio gear?


----------



## analogsurviver

redcarmoose said:


> The only thing that bugged me was how, when finished the whole system was placed on a ten inch wide rail in the middle of the house. Maybe a controlled environment but still, with that odd time a drunk contractor comes over to do some home improvements with that work belt flying around?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Well, you can't have everything 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 The first "accessory" invisible in the photo ( just a couple of cm/inch ) would be a person standing/seating there on 24/7, 366/y basis - who would be authorized to use 
_minimum required force _for the home improvement guys and particularly the greatest nemesis of them all, _*The Cleaning Lady *_, to never come closer than say a meter to the TT. I like the stylus guard incorporated to the TT's plinth - with the ET2 sticking beyond the footprint of the plinth (made about the smallest reasonably possible within the given idea, a VERY good design ), the first "guard" of the TT is the stylus - and if that is mounted to the nude cartridge ...
  
 I realize placing the TT on a relatively too shallow "support" was chosen because it is most probably a solid brick construction. Once upon a time, many many full moons ago, I did get to see why audiophiles are sometimes called _Audio Maniacs _in Japan; the TT was sitting on a solid concrete pillar of approx 1 meter diameter
 ( could be a bit or not so bit more or less - it IS over 3 decades I have seen the photo ! ) - going all the way to the foundation of the house, with cut -out in the floor/ceiling of all  the floors between the foundation and top floor of the house where the "he-man cave" was situated. So no vibration other than that of the greatest seismic masses of them all, The Earth, could reach the TT.
  
There are , obviously, many levels till one achieves " Audio Maniac with VHS Metal Tape Belt & ton+ heavy solid base for the TT "  supreme level 





 .


----------



## Redcarmoose

I used to get import audiophile magazines from Japan, just for the pictures. There the guy could take over the house in the quest of audio perfection. 50 foot horns that were 10 feet by 10 feet square pointing down from the ceiling and literally the ceiling of the house.


Giant arrays of 12 inch bass drivers all wired up and siting on the floor atop marble slabs completely boxless. 45 foot racks of gear going from one end of the room to the other.


I used to stare at the photos with eyes as big as coke bottle bottoms.:eek:


----------



## longbowbbs

I had a nice time at the RMAF show with Mat & Jane from VPI. Loving my Scout 1.1!


----------



## ]eep

Redcarmoose, that looks impressive. What am I saying, it IS impressive. And what is the first this I notice?... the great joint in the woodwork of the airpressuredistributorbox (is that a great word for scrabble?). And the second, like Analogsurviver said ^: the arm... 

Oh my. Dr Murphy is not going to be happy about that. An accident waiting to happen, stylusguard or not. The stem of the arm is just the wrong way around (the little man is holding out its left arm instead of his right), or the mounting hole for the arm is in the wrong place (left, rear). Is there only one mounting position for the arm? This reminds me of a school engineeringproject: everything is so thought out and over-engineered (aiming for the A+! summa cum laude) only to discover in the end: "Oops. Well maybe I should have thought of that before" and 'solve' the problem with a guard made of wire. 
Another personal preference; I would not place such a heavy solid looking TT on a tray on spikes. Now you have 1 solid piece/eyecatcher on a flimsy 3/4" plywood board on a thin 3/4"marble slab. Those parts are hardly nescessary and distract attention. I would just place it slab dab on the wall/shelf. Or make a fat plump base following the outline of the TT-base that fits over the wall. Simplicity is the signature of the master. 

I made a quick mockup to explain what I mean. I don't know if it's at all possible to do this (in any easy way). You would need to turn the arm countercw a bit but I can't draw this in 3D. 


Something else... Why are those four elephants on the corners not carrying anything?


----------



## Eee Pee

Nice shirt longboobbs!
  
 I wonder if there's stairs on the other side of the white wall.  That'd be scary.


----------



## Shaffer

My humble setup about 8 months ago:


----------



## longbowbbs

A new toy for my VPI....


----------



## Paul Graham

I still need to get a clamp but keep buying headphones instead lol


----------



## longbowbbs

paul graham said:


> I still need to get a clamp but keep buying headphones instead lol


 
 Too many parts...I am looking at new speakers now....always something!


----------



## Paul Graham

longbowbbs said:


> Too many parts...I am looking at new speakers now....always something!


 

 Definitely!!
  
 I love my BR2's but keep getting these ideas about buying some B&W's or maybe some Focal's.
 But its the wife's dagger eyes that are keeping that idea at bay lol!


----------



## longbowbbs

paul graham said:


> longbowbbs said:
> 
> 
> > Too many parts...I am looking at new speakers now....always something!
> ...


 
 Ha!


----------



## ]eep

The trick of buying expensive hifi is: selling it to the wife. 

I always considered Focal to be one of my favorite brands. It still is, but there is no way you can sell me some anymore. I heard the Stella Utopia on McIntosh amplification and I was underwhelmed. Not enough detail and to slow (relatively!!!). B&W has never or will ever be my speaker of choice.



shaffer said:


> My humble setup about 8 months ago:



Judging by the amount of records you've got your priorities straight. What made you choose the AT 33PTG?


----------



## Redcarmoose

]eep said:


> The trick of buying expensive hifi is: selling it to the wife.
> 
> I always considered Focal to be one of my favorite brands. It still is, but there is no way you can sell me some anymore. I heard the Stella Utopia on McIntosh amplification and I was underwhelmed. Not enough detail and to slow (relatively!!!). B&W has never or will ever be my speaker of choice.
> Judging by the amount of records you've got your priorities straight. What made you choose the AT 33PTG?





There has been so many small audio purchases I never told my wife about. Though out of respect for all her money saving ways, I told her about one 3K purchase after the fact. I found it is much easer asking her to forgive than to give permission.


----------



## analogsurviver

eee pee said:


> Nice shirt longboobbs!
> 
> I wonder if there's stairs on the other side of the white wall.  That'd be scary.


 
 That with stairs is the most logical explanation ...


----------



## longbowbbs

eee pee said:


> Nice shirt longboobbs!
> 
> I wonder if there's stairs on the other side of the white wall.  That'd be scary.


 
 Scary was the wait for the elevator. I used the stairs all day long. Much faster!


----------



## Redcarmoose




----------



## ]eep

I do use the elevator. Try outrunning that to the 15th floor! 28 flights... when I see 5 I'm still sprinting but thinking "what am I doing?", when I see 10 I'm panting and I can't sprint anymore and have to take it a nudge down, when I reach the top at 13 my heartbeat has reached at least 180 (age 50 and in top condition). And when I go down as fast as I can (step, jump, turn)x28 I get so dizzy I almost walk into the wall to the left of the hall. :rolleyes:



redcarmoose said:


> There has been so many small audio purchases I never told my wife about. Though out of respect for all her money saving ways, I told her about one 3K purchase after the fact. I found it is much easer asking her to forgive than to give permission.



It might be a true most of the time. But that won't work for me since I'm single. I answer only to myself.
No, but seriously: I took my wife buying my previous (2ndH) TT and there was no problem. I could account for it that it was sensible and there was no problem and we had a great day visiting the sellers. A few years later I bought designer t-shirt on sale for €5 and I got the biggest row ever. Because my wife was spending a lot of money behind _my_ back that I really would have liked to be consulted on. So my advice: work on your relationship and you can spend a lot more than you think. Sneak behind her back and you can end up losing both. 

Talking about buying constraint: buying on auction (like Ebay), now that is dangerous. I just saw some nice lp's from a casual seller that seemed to go by unnoticed. 3 items: the first was only 2.50, first bid. And in the last few seconds... overbid. What? :mad: So the second one; stay on it, don't bid, stay on it... 20 seconds... now bid, only 3.40. Ow, automatic bid, up the anty, don't skimp, quickly... 10. Ow, not enough. Again, no time to think, 15 (my predetermined pain limit). 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0. Yes, won it for 13.50GBP.  The third one: remember, no extra P+P... 15 minutes, what's the limit? It's only 2.50 now. 9 minutes, hey! 6.50. Oh no, someones bidding. Don't worry, still cheap. 3 minutes, 9.50... 13.50. Uh oh, one more shot before the painlimit... 1 minute. Now! 15! No not enough, how high, eh, 17? No, don't. It's getting to high. Yes what? Oh! Closed. Highest bid 19.68 equals~ €25.  This really got my adrenaline pumping. And adrenaline makes for bad decision-making. As does testosterone; parade around a gorgeous woman and men will buy anything at any price. Bottomline: think first, communicate, and most of all, stay cool.

So, I lost MERCURY AMS 16040, Tchaikovsky - Dorati but I won Columbia SAX 2260 B/S: Beethoven No 6 Klemperer. My first real all tube mastered SAX Ed1 'silver' for only €17. It is really a bargain since these normally go for _a lot_ more, depending on condition. This one seems Ex.


----------



## Shaffer

]eep said:


> Judging by the amount of records you've got your priorities straight. What made you choose the AT 33PTG?




In a word, the sound. I was running Lyras for years and wanted something different. Heard one in a friend's system and decided to try it. For ~$600 imported from Japan, it's a (relative) steal.


----------



## analogsurviver

shaffer said:


> In a word, the sound. I was running Lyras for years and wanted something different. Heard one in a friend's system and decided to try it. For ~$600 imported from Japan, it's a (relative) steal.


 
 I waited till you replied.
  
 I am VERY familiar with AT's MMs and few MCs. I absolutely HATE MC OCx family - I would remove it from my TT in a blink of an eye. Brrrr.... - it is linear like probably no MC under the sun, it tracks well, it even has decent channel separation - but 7th and 9th harmonic distortion really is the very last thing I would like listen to. NO WAY !
  
 AT32/33 family is looong in the tooth - spanning almost 4 decades - and it has been updated and improved many times. For the life, I can no longer find on internet AT's own measurements of their carts - good old Bruel & Kjaer printouts. And out of all current or "just deceased" models, 33 PTG and 33PTGII had the most sensible and balanced set of measurements of all things AT available at the time ( six months back max ).
 In particular, PTGs had very good channel separation that was not deteriorating much with rising frequency -
 and that is always a sign of a good sounding cart.
  
 33 PTG II also reduced its coil resistance - from 17 ohm down to 10 ohm. Not only is now there less mass (always a good thing in a phono cartridge stylus) - it should also help the dynamic range. It still is not really low (like 1 ohm or less carts that can wake the dead with their dynamic range ) - but should really be decent by now. Here some thoughts from another forum http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/best-cartridge-youve-never-heard-of-the-audio-technica-at33ptg-ii.329374/ - and you can form your own opinion with respect to comments of others and comparisons with other products.
  
 My own question for you: after having lived with Lyras for a long time, how did you perceive the vinyl noise as reproduced by AT 33PTG II ? Lyras are sort of kings/reference in this regard, if the AT did not lag (far) behind, it must really be a great cart. 
  
 And at the price, it IS a steal. Of the current ATs, perhaps the only one I would consider .


----------



## ]eep

I won't elaborate, but I was considering the PTG. I always loved my OC9 and was very sad when 1 channel stopped working. But I love my Urushi more, and still have an almost new KaratD17 MKII as a spare. Plus a Decca. I don't think you won't find anything better for the price but I don't need anything.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I won't elaborate, but I was considering the PTG. I always loved my OC9 and was very sad when 1 channel stopped working. But I love my Urushi more, and still have an almost new KaratD17 MKII as a spare. Plus a Decca. I don't think you won't find anything better for the price but I don't need anything.


 
 I first heard an OCx ( 7? 9? ) trough something both of us love(d) - Rogers LS-3/5a. And it was coarse beyond belief. Then, a few months later, I did get to install and measure OC9 - and found that 7th and/or 9th harmonic that bothered me that much . Not for me....
  
 Koetsu I am not familiar enough with - except when I did get to adjust and hear them, they were behaving quite well with most signals and music. I did get to peek under the microscope with one and found they use a rarely (if ever by others) method of attaching the stylus to the cantilever. First, the stylus is attached to a metal "shroud/plate" - and that then gets glued to the boron cantilever. There is a penalty of additional metal at the least desirable point imaginable - but the positive side of such a decision does bring dividends - stylus orientation can be controlled/positioned with much better precision than the usual (haphazard ) method. From that, a shrill sounding Koetsu should be the last thing one could encounter - liked that one indeed ! Pity that retipping at Koetsu is so expensive - and NO, sending it to others when time comes will NOT bring the same sonics !
  

 Koetsu
  
 DV Karats ( each and every one of them ) have one fatal drawback - poor channel separation. That is why other, more conventionally built and priced much more highly models in DV lineup exist. For sheer speed and freedom from colourations, DV 17D ( now in III guise ) is hard to beat at any price. Sooner or later, my Ruby (23 RS ?? ) that by now has left and right side of the diamond _ worn beyond any safe use _will get a  new diamond sibling.
  
 Decca ? From a (very) limited exposure, for the hard core S&M practitioners only - when it is right, it can be divine, when the LP just played does not suit it, it can be just the opposite. I would never want it as a desert island only cartridge - but for an occasional fling 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Shaffer

analogsurviver said:


> [...]
> 
> My own question for you: after having lived with Lyras for a long time, how did you perceive the vinyl noise as reproduced by AT 33PTG II ? Lyras are sort of kings/reference in this regard, if the AT did not lag (far) behind, it must really be a great cart.
> 
> And at the price, it IS a steal. Of the current ATs, perhaps the only one I would consider .




The PTGII is very sensitive to SRA. Worse, as it breaks in and the elastomer softens a bit, if you will, further adjustments are necessary. Once setup, it's very quiet in the groove. Not as quiet as a Lyra, but close. The quietest cart I've heard, in this respect, is an OC9 II. Unfortunately, it lacks the resolution of the PTG II.


----------



## analogsurviver

shaffer said:


> The PTGII is very sensitive to SRA. Worse, as it breaks in and the elastomer softens a bit, if you will, further adjustments are necessary. Once setup, it's very quiet in the groove. Not as quiet as a Lyra, but close. The quietest cart I've heard, in this respect, is an OC9 II. Unfortunately, it lacks the resolution of the PTG II.


 
 Thank you for the answer. I did expect the PTG II to be sensitive to SRA - and the usual re-adjustments once the suspension settles down, it is perfectly normal. The lack of resolution (coarse, "one note samba" if you will ) is my reservation regarding the entire OCx family - otherwise it is a great cartridge design.
  
 THE quietest thing in the groove is another AT - AT ML170/OCC . It is great using conventional load for a MM cartridge, but becomes invincible if loaded really correctly. Too bad it is out of production for decades - and if and when it does turn up for sale, the end price sadly does reflect the above fact. All the noise there is is the hiss from the tape - vinyl noise is next to inaudible. 
  
 The sample I did run across had performance that was hard to believe to really come from vinyl test record and for linearity and non linear distortion put anything else to shame. I only wished it was mine - that happened "at the last call for alcohol" - a friend ordered it a few days before it vanished for good, I was a few days late ...


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## analogsurviver

doormat


----------



## penmarker

The camera angle sold it.
  
 +1


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## analogsurviver

It is actually for sale : http://www.ebay.de/itm/Schmutzmatte-Bodenvorleger-Fusmatte-Abtreter-Turmatte-Abstreifer-Plattenspieler-/311124023592?pt=Teppiche&hash=item48706fd928


----------



## Shaffer

analogsurviver said:


> Thank you for the answer. I did expect the PTG II to be sensitive to SRA - and the usual re-adjustments once the suspension settles down, it is perfectly normal. [...]




This cart was unusually sensitive to breakin. I completely agree that re-adjustments are a normal part of the process. It's the degree of magnitude that was rather high.


----------



## analogsurviver

shaffer said:


> This cart was unusually sensitive to breakin. I completely agree that re-adjustments are a normal part of the process. It's the degree of magnitude that was rather high.


 
 Interesting. I suspect it was a bit higher compliance than the "current norm" - and higher compliance (less stiff ) suspensions tend to behave like that ( Shure V15VMR is a make or break - within 0.05 of a gram either way, sample to sample dependant , also very SRA sensitive ). What VTF did you end up with once finally set up - I expect it to track at a bit lighter pressure, towards the lower limit ( or even lower ) of the mfr's 1.8-2.2 g range ?


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> It is actually for sale : http://www.ebay.de/itm/Schmutzmatte-Bodenvorleger-Fusmatte-Abtreter-Turmatte-Abstreifer-Plattenspieler-/311124023592?pt=Teppiche&hash=item48706fd928


 

 I don't think I could bring myself to wipe my shoes on it.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> I don't think I could bring myself to wipe my shoes on it.


 
 My thoughts exactly - guess any of my TTs would say :


----------



## bbophead

LOL!


----------



## ]eep

> I first heard an OCx ( 7? 9? ) trough something both of us love(d) - Rogers LS-3/5a. And it was coarse beyond belief. Then, a few months later, I did get to install and measure OC9 - and found that 7th and/or 9th harmonic that bothered me that much . Not for me....



Well, your mileage may vary.... I came from a very nice HO-MC, the Milltek Aurora (=Kiseki budget brand) and went to the OC9+stepup>tube. It was simply _sweet_. I don't really see were 7th or 9th (really?) harmonics can bother anyone, or what would cause them. 9th Harmonics are most of the time not even in the audible spectrum (depending on F0 of course). And harmonics are always a benign natural kind of distortion. Please don't go in to this, to technical and vague. And the cause might have been anything because TT's are so complex. I only recall the AT-OC9 as very clean, fast and sweet. Not as a nasty screecher. The only thing im my system was that is was a little lightweight. But that was mainly Linn Axis' fault. I find the Axis boring in retrospect. Like a device for muggles pretending to be wizzards, the real magic is missing.

Oops, missed a gage...


> how did you perceive the vinyl noise as reproduced by AT 33PTG II



Isn't this solely dependent on the needletip shape and polish? Any FG or super elliptical that is polished well and with the cartridge carefully aligned should play quietly. As long as I can remember people are alway astounded at how quiet vinyl is, given proper handling of the vinyl of course. I had my OC9 always at 1.8g and the VTA; the head always a bit down. 

The doormat is funny, but it kinda sends the wrong message. 




Just like I hate those vinyl ashtrays...:mad: It is in fact NLP to disrespect mistreat your and other peoples vinyl. That is just like people who put their cigarette out in their plate after dinner. They should be shot in public.


----------



## analogsurviver

"A couple of posts back" I mentioned a "DIYready TT" from IKEA made out of bamboo. I managed to obtain the rectangular butcher block, but not the round "platter" version. 
  
 I do not throw the rifle in corn that easily - and I quickly decided to write an email to IKEA headquarters. Surprise - within less than 8 hours, I got a reply : 
  
 Dear Sir,
 Thank you for your email. I have forwarded the email to the appropriate person within the organization.
 Kind regards,
 Kirsten
  
 Six days later:
  
  
*Elisabet Jönsson* To me

CC Per Krokstäde Petra Axdorff Christina Wennberg


  

Oct 29 at 3:41 PM

Dear (---A-----S-----),
 
Unfortunately I have to inform you that we do not have any stock left of
the IKEA TRENDIG butchers block, it’s sold out in all stores worldwide.
 
This was a limited collection and was only sold during a short period.
 
All the best Elisabet Jönsson
IKEA of Sweden, Free Range
  
  
 Although the reply was not what I was hoping for, I have to recommend the IKEA team - they handled it in a most professional manner imaginable. That is what I call great customer service
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 !
  
  
 Here the "bambus delicti" - it can go in (m)any directions ( I best stock up on these butcher blocks until I still can... ) - like a simple bamboo board ( a la Rega ), like a sandwich construction ( a la Legno TT : http://www.dvice.com/archives/2009/01/legno_turntable.php ), a la SME  20 ( http://www.hifinews.co.uk/news/article/sme-20-3-pound;8560/9336 ), a la ( censored 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) ...
  
 - here a few possibilities ( 2 big butcher blocks :& one smaller (to house the power supply/electronics for the TT)  - all still in protective wrap ) :
  

 Platter & mat from Telefunken S600 - set of platter, subplatter, main bearing and mat bought separately, as a direct consequence of realizing the quality from the Telefunken S600 from my previous post(s). That was before I knew IKEA bamboo platter is definitely no longer available. 
  
 [size=13.3333339691162px][/size]
  

  

  

 This is with a platter from Audio Reflex TT ( from "a quite a couple of posts back" )
  

  

  
 There is even a nice LENCO  dustcover ( I bought some quarter of a century back, still in Yugoslavia ) that will fit nicely once I add some hinges :
  

  It is my photo skills 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - NOT the dustcover - still immaculate after all these years in storage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 So depending on the dimensions which tonearm I choose to "transplant" - or, God forbid, decide to purchase pre-loved ( I DO have something special/rare on the radar...)  or even new -  I will decide whether going SME o-ring style suspension ( SME "borrowed" it too - NOT their invention ! ) - or something else. I have 2 platters and three main bearings to choose from, AC synhronous motor, DC asynhronous motor, and .... - leave that until there will be some more  known.
  
 We have a saying " _Jump _first, then say _hop "  - _so do not expect to see "bamboo TT" posts any time soon. I simply did not want to end up _*bamboozled *_by the lack of - bamboo ... - ending without the bamboo platter was hard enough
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Well, your mileage may vary.... I came from a very nice HO-MC, the Milltek Aurora (=Kiseki budget brand) and went to the OC9+stepup>tube. It was simply _sweet_. I don't really see were 7th or 9th (really?) harmonics can bother anyone, or what would cause them. 9th Harmonics are most of the time not even in the audible spectrum (depending on F0 of course). And harmonics are always a benign natural kind of distortion. Please don't go in to this, to technical and vague. And the cause might have been anything because TT's are so complex. I only recall the AT-OC9 as very clean, fast and sweet. Not as a nasty screecher. The only thing im my system was that is was a little lightweight. But that was mainly Linn Axis' fault. I find the Axis boring in retrospect. Like a device for muggles pretending to be wizzards, the real magic is missing.
> 
> Oops, missed a gage...
> Isn't this solely dependent on the needletip shape and polish? Any FG or super elliptical that is polished well and with the cartridge carefully aligned should play quietly. As long as I can remember people are alway astounded at how quiet vinyl is, given proper handling of the vinyl of course. I had my OC9 always at 1.8g and the VTA; the head always a bit down.
> ...


 
 Just a quick reply regarding vinyl noise - NO, the very same diamond stylus tip on the very same cantilever aligned completely the same way can (and does...) bring vastly different vinyl noise characteristics. It has ultimately to do with (irregularities = resonances ) in the frequency response - from DC to light, two carts that are indistinguishable by measurements limited only to 20 kHz can - and do - react to vinyl noise completely differently. It is particularly the response above 20 kHz responsible for this - and as an owner of DV17D II (that is very well behaved up above ) you should be aware of it. The faster one with the least irregularities will always win in vinyl noise - even if both use the very same stylus/cantilever. 
  
 There are MANY actions that can/have to be taken in order to supress the vinyl noise - and it is what separates men from the boys. Due to the fact that the solutions are hard to implement and are arrived at with mostly trial and error method, mostly with a particular cartridge design in mind and  requiring prodigious amount of time, manufacturers are particularly tight-lipped regarding this phenomenon. Understandable - if cart X is appreciably quieter in the groove than competitor's Y and both equally revealing and costing roughly the same, *guess* which one will survive in the market.  It fits in the category : 
Goodnes is obtained by making the basics right, greatness through ATTENDING TO DETAILS .


----------



## ]eep

I forgot that the suspension combined with the cantilever matters too. Mass and stiffness. Just like a racingcars traction does not only depend on the tire but suspension also. Only in a car the suspension is a lot more complex (4 tires are interdependt), the cantilever only has one rubber suspension and 1 tiny string holding it together. However, I still think if a cartridge can scan 100kHz from the groove (IF ever there is such a signal) it can certainly hold the needle against the groovewalls. If it would resonate at such a frequency you can say scanning goodbye. And deformations of the groovewall (vinylnoise) would not count as _noise_ but as *signal* if you don't scan the whole side from top to bottom as far as the cantilever is concerned. Look at the middle photo:

If you would only scan the middle of the road the rocks on the road would count as signal. Now the question is: do you want to hear the rocks or do you want to have the suspension even them out? Do you want the French Citroen ride or the McLaren F1 ride? I think what you really want is to get those rocks off the track. Those rocks are not the signal. 
The next picture you can see what we are talking about: the vinyl is not all slick and solid. You can see that even the top is not completely polished. Now that is vinyl noise. I think the only thing you _can_ do is scan it as best you can and not waltz over it like a lorry. If you want you can filter HF somewhere else but let the stylus stick to the track. 


Now this one is really cool if you have some red/green glasses for 3D (I happen to have one lying around )


Some more nice photo's I found...

Guess what you can do with a carbon brush...

Now this is what I see sometimes with a little 60x diamondmicroscope. The white specs are sometimes impossible to get rid of even with thorough cleaning with a RCM. Sometimes the woodgluemethod can do wonders turning a campfire into black night. And sometimes not even that helps.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I forgot that the suspension combined with the cantilever matters too. Mass and stiffness. Just like a racingcars traction does not only depend on the tire but suspension also. Only in a car the suspension is a lot more complex (4 tires are interdependt), the cantilever only has one rubber suspension and 1 tiny string holding it together. However, I still think if a cartridge can scan 100kHz from the groove (IF ever there is such a signal) it can certainly hold the needle against the groovewalls. If it would resonate at such a frequency you can say scanning goodbye. And deformations of the groovewall (vinylnoise) would not count as _noise_ but as *signal* if you don't scan the whole side from top to bottom as far as the cantilever is concerned. Look at the middle photo:
> 
> If you would only scan the middle of the road the rocks on the road would count as signal. Now the question is: do you want to hear the rocks or do you want to have the suspension even them out? Do you want the French Citroen ride or the McLaren F1 ride? I think what you really want is to get those rocks off the track. Those rocks are not the signal.
> The next picture you can see what we are talking about: the vinyl is not all slick and solid. You can see that even the top is not completely polished. Now that is vinyl noise. I think the only thing you _can_ do is scan it as best you can and not waltz over it like a lorry. If you want you can filter HF somewhere else but let the stylus stick to the track.
> ...


 
 Nice pictures and great post!
  
 However - what I had in mind was what actually happens when all those unwanted rocks do get tracked and transduced to an electrical signal. The goal is to have that electrical signal as linear in frequency response as possible. 
  
 In my future posts regarding turntable setup I will posts pics of the real cartridge tracking test signals as seen on an analog 100 MHz oscilloscope. I was also surprised, decades ago, to find on the peak of large amplitude sine wave signal of 300 Hz ( standard frequency for tracking testing ) - very high frequency noise, way exceeding 50 kHz . I measure into LINEAR, not RIAA equalized preamplifier ( test records are generally NOT equalized with full RIAA, they adhere to it only in the lower portion below 1 kHz - from 1 kHz up, they are cut in linear way, as high frequencies cut at or near 0 dB (full output ) with RIAA boost ( by 20 kHz +20 dB up ref 1 kHz ) are too much for practically any phono cartridge . ) Naturally, if tracking is measured trough RIAA equalized phono preamp, those high frequencies do get filtered out - and 300 Hz waveform looks "clean" on the scope.
  
 But measured linearly, carts exhibit vastly different behaviour once called upon to track high amplitude low frequency signals - particularly when they approach their tracking ability limits. The ones that "noise" on the scope the most are also the ones that noise subjectively the most on vinyl. If the cartridge exhibits gross non linearities _*anywhere within its operating range *_- not just within its spec or 20Hz-20kHz range - it _*will*_ noise on vinyl . 
  
 In other words - all those rocks trigger resonance(s) in phono cartridge(s)/tonearm(s)/turntable(s). The cart that allows itself the least reaction to these stymuli from rocks wins. Like it or not - those rocks are here to stay, we can reduce their presence trough cleaning (particularly ultrasonic ) - but they can never be 100% eliminated.


----------



## ]eep

> carts exhibit vastly different behaviour once called upon to track high amplitude low frequency signals



Isn't that just plain logical? How do you make a tuningfork resonate? Get the mass exited with a max amplitude tug or apply the frequency. 


> If the cartridge exhibits gross non linearities anywhere within its operating range - not just within its spec or 20Hz-20kHz range - it will noise on vinyl .



And this also. But I wouldn't call it vinyl noise as such. It is non-signal related resonance induced by excitation from,... well anything that gets it excited (save porn I guess ). At the moment I was listening to an old Decca Ace of Clubs mono record that a a severe hum once I put it on. In the runout groove it suddenly stops. Meaning that it is not vinyl noise. Maybe the lathe or maybe it's on the tape. Beside the hum the record sounds excellent though. I also had a few Decca testpressing (all in the English collection I just received). They were in flimsy paper sleeves and the last one I just played (v Beinum CGO Sym Fantastique) had a starfish shaped scratch from a grain of sand the size of a mooncrater just at the beginning. But I was curious about the sound. The sound was very good and amazingly quiet. Then the tick set in, tick, tick, ticktick, poptick, pop. POP, POP, tick, tick. undistorbed music until runout. Eh? Was that it? I really expected the cart to be launched, or hang or something. Amazing how you can't tell the severity of a scratch when you have a decent cart (ok, mine's more than decent).
Now I am playing an EMI Columbia SAX 2486 (3rd ed stamp), it looks absolutely squeaky clean (washed and treated), and still ticks all over the music like a rangers dog. Really annoying since the music is so absolutely wonderfull (Klemperers Mozart 40). The LP is now bathing in woodglue. See how this turns out.


----------



## bbophead

Got a new album.  Nice and zippy, especially on my Rega.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Isn't that just plain logical? How do you make a tuningfork resonate? Get the mass exited with a max amplitude tug or apply the frequency.
> And this also. But I wouldn't call it vinyl noise as such. It is non-signal related resonance induced by excitation from,... well anything that gets it excited (save porn I guess
> 
> 
> ...


 
 It is amazing to see (actually - hear ! ) the difference in the quality of mastering of the vinyl spanning several decades. BCD ( before CD ) , when dynamic range of just slightly over 70 dB or so was the maximum to be expected, one can find hum, lathe "inward moving noise" - all as a consequence of vinyl cutting/mastering. The hum is lot of time also on the master tapes - you can not do much about it , at least staying in analog. I am not going to say there were no quiet recordings decades ago ( they were - Pyral lacquers from 1977-78 were the best that ever were ) - but general awareness regarding hum etc was not nearly as high as it is today. If you "master" anything with loudspeakers only ( the preferred and - face it - more convinient method ) , low frequencies hum etc can well sneak past - use headphones or even better, IEMs - there is no place to hide.
  
 That it can be done has been demonstrated many times, even by the majors. But there was one place that was #1 for vinyl - JVC in Japan. They did the quietest vinyl, the longest lasting vinyl ( they were kind of FORCED to do it - because CD-4 quadrophonic sound carrier of 50 khz does not survive well with normal vinyl ... -  and CD-4 was JVC's baby ), to the point they could fit waaaay longer material on the 45RPM disc that is customary - with greater dynamic range - cut at relatively low level that would get drowned in surface noise if done by anyone else.
  
 I remember the sadness of the day I was informed that JVC stopped producing vinyl - it was also the end of their series of test records that were - and still are - second to none.
  
 The vast range of "quality" of vinyl does make one re-think of  pushing the turntable design to the max - there are very few LPs available that can even approach what top TTs are capable of reproducing.


----------



## zorin

A 150 000 dollars turntable
  




  




  




  
 Quoted from martinloganowners.com 
"I'll start off with the source equipment and pre-amplification. The analog source was the Clearaudio Statement turntable. The Statement is a 770 lb. analog masterpiece featuring a magnetically driven subplatter that provides absolutely no contact to the main platter, and both platters are dynamically balanced. A 176 lb. plenum is utilized as a leveling device to insure the utmost precision in leveling the table. A high speed microprocessor motor controller similar to the ones used on the Mars rover controls motor drive speed. It can accomodate up to 4 tonearms, and resonance control is accomplished via the inclusion of damped, sandwiched, bulletproof wood (Panzer Holz), stainless steel, and acrylic structures. You can have one for $150,000.00. The table was fitted with a Clearaudio Goldring V2 cartridge ($10,000), that is capable of more than 100db of dynamic range - better than many digital rigs. This was the first time this turntable system was ever displayed actively for the public.

The signal from the cartridge was run through the new Aesthetix IO Eclipse phono pre-amp ($15,500.00), running dual outboard power supplies."
  
 http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?7410-Rocky-Mountain-Audio-Fest-2008/page5


----------



## ]eep

Clearaudio has a very nice middleground compromise table in between the statement and the one on the top photo (dunno what that's called, it's not an Innovation compact). The Master Innovation is the price of a small car and has a lot of smart tricks (innovation, yeah but it's already called that) an a lot of heft. I like the cool understatement of the Ovation, that looks a lot like the Dr Feickert. And a step up from my Performance. But it's double the price and just out of reach... But I like their products. Beauty and the beast in one body.


----------



## AK7579

Picked this one up yesterday as an upgrade to my Pioneer PL-41. Linn Basik with Akito tonearm and Linn K5 cart.


----------



## bbophead

Nice.  Looks mint plus.  Congratulations!


----------



## ]eep

Looks very nice and like new. With the 'Kinki' mat option too!  

This arm/table can handle a lot better cart. That is not what Linn will tell you but their word is not canonical.


----------



## analogsurviver

ak7579 said:


> Picked this one up yesterday as an upgrade to my Pioneer PL-41. Linn Basik with Akito tonearm and Linn K5 cart.


 
  
 Like the others have said before, nice TT in great condition. I like the tennis/squash balls cut in half for the isolation support - should be quite effective.
  
 Regarding the cart - Linn K5 was manufactured by Audio Technica, it is a close relative of AT95. I have seen in Linn forums how to mate the ATN 95 stylus to K5 cart, now K5 is no longer in production and spare styli are hard to find.
 That said, check http://www.analogplanet.com/content/nine-cartridges-compared-reviewed-and-voting-results - there is an upgrade for ATN95 with Shibata stylus
 which should give you perhaps the biggest bang for the buck in your case. But the arm ( if really with OK bearings ) can handle even much better cart$.


----------



## AK7579

It came with the default felt mat but I decided to use my previous leather one and I like the results better. Tamed highs and deeper bass.

As for the cart, I did read that the ATN95 stylus would be a great upgrade for it and already have my eye on one from LPgear but may go straight for Denon DL103 once I have funds.


----------



## analogsurviver

ak7579 said:


> It came with the default felt mat but I decided to use my previous leather one and I like the results better. Tamed highs and deeper bass.
> 
> As for the cart, I did read that the ATN95 stylus would be a great upgrade for it and already have my eye on one from LPgear but may go straight for Denon DL103 once I have funds.


 
 DL103 is a _*low *_compliance cart - and needs a heavy arm to really sing. You just might get by with placing as much ballast in the headshell area as the Akito is still capable of balancing out. http://www.vinylengine.com/library/linn/akito.shtml says effective mass is 10 g, Denon DL103 has a mass of 8,5 g + hardware - which leaves practically nothing to add, as Akito can balance 10 g. Even if 2 additional g mass is added to the headshell area ( and stylus gauge used for setting VTF ), it is still on the light side for DL103.
  
*specifications Denon DL-103:*
 

Frequency response (Hz): 20-45,000
Output@1khz, 50mm/sec: .3mV
Output impedance: 40 ohms
Load impedance: 100ohms
Channel seperation at 1kHz: over 25db
Channel sensitivity: 1dB or less
Tracking tip: 16.5 micron special round solid diamond
Copliance: 5x10-6cm/dyne (100Hz)
Tracking force- 2.3~2.7g
Cantilever: aluminum, conical
Mass: 8.5g
  
The desired resonant frequency is 8-12 Hz, with "ideal" being 10 Hz - http://www.resfreq.com/resonancecalculator.html gives for total mass of 20 g and compliance 5 resonant frequency almost 16 Hz - which is BAD. Subjectively, it means boomy bass and overall lift in response starting at approx 40 Hz
reaching approx + 3 dB @20 Hz - which IS audible. The only thing I do not agree with from the Poul Ladegaard excellent paper is his recommendation of 16 Hz resonance - it does have its pros, but con is bass as described above. There are means to still have the unwanted movements around resonant frequency as low as with 16 Hz resonance with lower resonant frequencies ( and faboulous sounding bass...) - but Akito provides for none of the measures required.
 
 
I prefer resonant frequency slightly below 10 Hz - (around 9 ) as it avoids the above while still not too low and too excitable by warps etc. If there is a way of getting the counterweight for Akito to balance some additional mass where you at least could reach 12 Hz resonance, that would be OK - not great, but OK. 
 
I did clearly state my reservations regarding carts with spherical stylus tracking at approx 2.5 g VTF and requiring heavy arms before; DL103 DOES sound good, but for how long will the records tracked by it continue to sound good is another matter.... 
 
Once you figure out what your previous cartridges have been doing in the grooves of your LPs once you do get to use a cart that can track at stylus pressure that is vinyl friendly, it IS too late.


----------



## ]eep

Likewise, I do not recommend the DL103. It is originally a broadcast cartridge able to withstand abuse. It might have some good characteristics but the round stylus cannot steer the same curves a nice super elliptical can, and the small contactarea, exacerbated by the 2.5g force puts a lot of pressure in the tender groove wall. It deforms the vinyl and will not scan the whole wall. 






> wikipedia:
> Cross-section diagram comparing two common types of stylus. Spherical (left), Elliptical (right). Note the difference in contact area marked in red. The elliptical stylus allows for more groove contact area which increases fidelity, whereas the spherical makes less contact with the grove and generates less fidelity.



Here are some more realistically scaled shapes.













And some actual microscope shots which are pretty cool 




An actual Denon DL103.




Stanton DJ stylus.




Shure M92 eliptical




Fritz Gyger-S




I know this one, I've got this one, I love this one. Dynavector Karat 17D Mk2 (how did they get the diamond stuck in a diamond?)




AT-ML150




AT-OC9MLII




Same microline, more detailed. 

But, not everything is what you see or seems....




This *is* a Denon 103R, modified with a panzerholz body and SoundSmith "Ruby nude contact line diamond" re-tip. Don't get your hopes up though, the waiting list is l o n g... (1 year?) And complyance is the same, not for low-medium mass arms.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Likewise, I do not recommend the DL103. It is originally a broadcast cartridge able to withstand abuse. It might have some good characteristics but the round stylus cannot steer the same curves a nice super elliptical can, and the small contactarea, exacerbated by the 2.5g force puts a lot of pressure in the tender groove wall. It deforms the vinyl and will not scan the whole wall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 How did they get the diamond stylus into the diamond cantilever ? "Simple" - if you are Namiki. By using YAG laser that cuts the square hole in the cantilever - and as this cutting makes the diamond ( a bit/quite/much ) hot - it expands a little and before it cools off, they insert the diamond stylus which gets locked/clamped once the diamond cantilever cools down. Everything is so precise no adhesive is used/required - con is the fact the fact that once stylus is worn, it can not be replaced ( sometimes it IS possible to *somehow* get the stylus out of cantilever, but a new one of the EXACTLY same dimensions can not be re-installed ) > which actually requires the change of  complete mechanical part, coils included; hence the high cost of "retipping" which is nothing else but replacement with new cartridge.
  
 Due to that temperature clamping of the stylus/cantilever, all "retipings" of Karat by a third party - IF the diamond stylus  can be extracted without damaging the diamond cantilever - use either a smaller cross-section stylus that fits the original hole + some adhesive OR a bigger section stylus glued on like in Soundsmith Ruby  or AT OC ML II case. None can achieve the same rigidity as the original - ANY glue is chewing gum compared to diamond...


----------



## ]eep

It was more of a rhetorical question since I guessed it must be done that way. But it is really high-tech, anyone has got to admit. Tolerances are terrifyingly low. I have made woodjoints with a chisel and without glue that is really hard. To tight and it breaks, to wide and it slips out. Pinewood is tolerant (high modulus of elasticity and tough) but diamond is not (rigid and brittle). But as you mentioned you can leave that to the Japanese! 
At the time when Mr van den Hul was adjusting the cantilever, squeezing it with his plyers he was making jokes about sqeezing it a bit to hard and accidentally breaking it. I could not appreciate the joke then. He was doing all the work and I was sweating.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> It was more of a rhetorical question since I guessed it must be done that way. But it is really high-tech, anyone has got to admit. Tolerances are terrifyingly low. I have made woodjoints with a chisel and without glue that is really hard. To tight and it breaks, to wide and it slips out. Pinewood is tolerant (high modulus of elasticity and tough) but diamond is not (rigid and brittle). But as you mentioned you can leave that to the Japanese!
> At the time when Mr van den Hul was adjusting the cantilever, squeezing it with his plyers he was making jokes about sqeezing it a bit to hard and accidentally breaking it. I could not appreciate the joke then. He was doing all the work and I was sweating.


 
 Your reply is the real world practical answer as to who is capable of the top precision in phono stylus and cantilever manufacturing. Technology that makes it possible is mind boggling and simply is not available outside Japan.
  
 Some of the cartridges can be repaired/retipped to quite close, maybe even better condition than they left the factory. Some can not - and Dynavector Karats are definitely among them. One of the hardest things to accomplish is to get Namiki to agree to start supplying their stylus tips to a phono cartridge manufacturer - it is like buying a Ferrari, cash alone is not nearly enough.
  
 It is true that Namiki did cut a few Van den Hul I styli without permission from /payment to Van den Hul. I have seen it mounted to Audio Note IO ( or was it a Soara ?)
 MC cartridge. With one difference - it looked in flesh at least every bit as good as the original did - in brochure, not in real life ...  Since that brief period, they switched to Micro (Ridge, Line, whatever, SAS ) and further improved the precision. They REALLY take care of the end product, they would not supply their styli to anybody that would not mount them to anything but second to none precision. Similar to the approach Reynolds has in regard of the use for its tubing for frame building for bicycles and motorcycles.
  
 Among the cartridges that can not be retipped to or beyond original quality is anything with stylus mounted to the cantilever with a hole in it, like the AT ML150 pictured in the above post of yours.  Once it is gone, it is gone - at least in the quality as you knew it. No matter what any retipper might be telling you. Grado ( Joe Grado personally ) used to test his Signature series for this critical joint between the stylus and cantilever - by ear, as optical means can not tell you absolutely nothing about the integrity of this bond. And he destroyed more than a third (or was it two thirds ? ) of any given production, letting only the good ones to reach the market. You can not buy a Grado of this quality anymore - but at the time Signature series appeared, it was thought of as being outrageously expensive. And even among those super selected styli, there were audible differences among them - at least one user with 5 Signatures reported they all sound slightly different.


----------



## ]eep

I found some info on a Polish site that is informative yet easy to read. I was looking for a detail of a vdHul tip and found this photo under polarised light that shows up actual pressurelines in the record (transparent here). But I will quote the whole text (for the lazy ones here )


> *[COLOR=FF0000]Stylus Tip Shapes[/COLOR]*
> 
> *Conical or spherical. *
> 
> ...



I don't quite agree with the comment on the conical stylus; I don't think it is not a good choice for playing worn and beat up records, just for getting them that way! As we talked about before, getting rid of surface noise is not being unable to pick up high frequencies (throwing away the baby with the bathwater) but scanning as much clean wall as you can. 

I think the 3rd (line contact) is a good comprise between setup hassle and usability and quality for DIY. The microline has to be adjusted very carefully by a knowledgeable person with the right tools (ergo; a pro).





Some big models of different advanced modern stylus tip shapes.


----------



## Clayton SF

I did a little window shopping last Saturday with #parbaked. Had fun fun fun. This turntable, although, was a little over the top.


----------



## bbophead

You gize.
  
 Looks pretty good to me.
  
 You got a problem?


----------



## Clayton SF

bbophead said:


> You gize.
> 
> Looks pretty good to me.
> 
> You got a problem?


 
  
 Hehehehe. It is very good. Over the top is good!


----------



## ]eep

It's a good table, but the vertical frontpanel irritates me. Why do they have to use the same cliché form when any honest design lets form follow function. It's not like it has to go in a cabinet like the other cases. And another thing: however good and solid, durable, sans compromis and built to last it is, my simple setup beats it. Just _because_ it is so simple. I've heard it in combination with the Focal Stella Utopia. But that doesn't necessarily have any bearing on this turntable. And is like any listening experience; subjective.


----------



## analogsurviver

clayton sf said:


> I did a little window shopping last Saturday with #parbaked. Had fun fun fun. This turntable, although, was a little over the top.


 
 Lord, thank you for McIntosh not producing: 
  
 - sport balls
 - racing bicycles
 - etc


----------



## zorin

analogsurviver said:


> Lord, thank you for McIntosh not producing:
> 
> - sport balls
> - racing bicycles
> - etc


 
 http://www.mrporter.com/en-ca/mens/band_of_outsiders/mackintosh-bonded-cotton-pullover-jacket-/507179?cm_mmc=ProductSearch{ifplaLA}{ifdynYNMRKT}-_-CA-_-Clothing-_-Coats_And_Jackets


----------



## analogsurviver

zorin said:


> http://www.mrporter.com/en-ca/mens/band_of_outsiders/mackintosh-bonded-cotton-pullover-jacket-/507179?cm_mmc=ProductSearch{ifplaLA}{ifdynYNMRKT}-_-CA-_-Clothing-_-Coats_And_Jackets


 
 It is Mackintosh, Scottish heritage firm , not Mcintosh, American manufacturer of audio. BTW, I DO like some of Mcintosh products, _despite _their appearence,  the cream of the crop perhaps being MR71 tuner - which I wish I could afford.


----------



## bbophead

So much hate and McIntosh is still here.


----------



## parbaked

Clayton and I were actually at an invite-only McIntosh event at the San Francisco dealer.
 Charlie Randall (President of McIntosh) was there with an army of salespeople.
 I was shocked at the poor build quality of the new pieces.
 They look and feel cheap, especially the new headphone amp.
 The D100 on display had a visibly crooked volume knob...what?
 Both vinyl set-ups sounded bad - one sounded thin; one sounded compressed.
  
 The new cans sounded good enough.
  
 The store had a few vintage amps and receivers out as well.
 The old stuff even smelt better....
  
 I was disappointed.


----------



## ]eep

Not hate, personal lack of attraction. That's different. It's a bit like Rolls Royce. Come to think of it, a _lot_ like RR. And before the computer age a mac was a proverbial raincoat. At least that's what I learned in English class many, many, many years ago. That's why I still write colourful (catch the extra 'u'?) oldfashioned English.  Oh, and Mc stands for the clan to which a person or family belongs. Spelled Mac should be an anglicism, making McIntosh the more authentic spelling. Unfortunately it's an American company which makes it a lot less authentic. Not like Linn which is a true Scottish brand. That's why they like to substitute k for c and i for y. Hence the 'kinki' mat. 

About the McTT (not a burger) it is quite an understated product if you look past the fascia. No drill-platform, no 'look at me' feet or hang-bridge suspension, no 12 belts. Just a simple looking arm next to a thick acrylic platter.


----------



## parbaked

]eep said:


> About the McTT (not a burger) it is quite "quiet" and *understated* product if you look past the fascia. No drill-platform, no 'look at me' feet or hang-bridge suspension, no 12 belts. Just a simple looking arm next to a thick acrylic platter.


 
 It has a big blue meter to tell you what speed you're spinning!


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> Not hate, personal lack of attraction. That's different. It's a bit like Rolls Royce. Come to think of it, a _lot_ like RR. And before the computer age a mac was a proverbial raincoat. At least that's what I learned in English class many, many, many years ago. That's why I still write colourful (catch the extra 'u'?) oldfashioned English.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Just pulling your chain, although there can't be anything more authentic American hi-fi than McIntosh.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Not hate, personal lack of attraction. That's different. It's a bit like Rolls Royce. Come to think of it, a _lot_ like RR. And before the computer age a mac was a proverbial raincoat. At least that's what I learned in English class many, many, many years ago. That's why I still write colourful (catch the extra 'u'?) oldfashioned English.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Very well said. Thanks for the explanation regarding the "surplus" u - I *guess* that makes me old fashioned too ( being constantly reminded of that surplus u by the PC ...)
  
 After all the stir this photo has created, I _*did *_check online what the fuss behind yet another McIntosh greenish/blueish fascia is all about. And to my astonishment and amazement, it turns out to be quite a clever piece of engineering, in a way sort of a lower cost tribute to the Platine Verdier - with a twist; both platter and arm "float" on magnet repulsion system. 
  
 But that facade is totally out of sync with everything I associate with a turntable - I might grundgigly accept it, provided it is free and I am allowed to remove it faster than the rise time of the fastest phono cartridge ever made ...
  
 My other design related displeasure are blue LEDs. Whenever possible, I replace them with green - if not, I will insist on covering/hiding the damn thing sporting them.
  
 NO kidding.


----------



## ]eep

Oops, that was a typo. I meant 'quite an understated product'. Not an*d*... Very much like a RR. There is a lot under the hood that you don't see, flawlesly executed to ensure years of great performance. That makes it quiet too, like a Rolls. I just hope they adopted an acrylic platter over a delrin or aluminium platter for technical reasons and not to be able to light it up with a blue-green led. 
I change all my leds to purple because I'm gay. I mean, uh ... my brother always cheated me out of the purple armies playing risk and now I can take any colour I like.  Well, no, it's the newest led colour and it's hip. Changing them makes it look like I have a choice and I can make them any colour I damn well like. Got it? Yeah!

Edit: I just realised the one I heard was the MT5, not this MT10. Funny, the MT10 comes with an McCartridge. (bad pun. Sometimes I don't read what it says but what first comes to mind).  I like the MT5 better from a financial and aesthetic point of view. I already posted pictures in this thread 11/2/13 #2516

Focal Stella Utopia loudspeakers, McIntosh C500 tube preamp, D100 d/a-converter, MC601 600W monoblocks and the MT5 TT.


----------



## bbophead

I like blue LEDs O.K. but they're always too bright so I wind up putting stuff over them to dim them down.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> I like blue LEDs O.K. but they're always too bright so I wind up putting stuff over them to dim them down.


----------



## zorin

analogsurviver said:


> It is Mackintosh, Scottish heritage firm , not Mcintosh, American manufacturer of audio. BTW, I DO like some of Mcintosh products, _despite _their appearence,  the cream of the crop perhaps being MR71 tuner - which I wish I could afford.


 
 The story is that when a branch of the Mackintosh clan was moving to America, many a year ago, the letter "a" somehow got lost during the long and hard voyage.
 When a "Mckintosh", from across the ocean and on his travels, were to find himself stranded in a Mackintosh countryside of Scotland and wanting to book a room for a night at a local inn, he would be kindly asked to write the name Macintosh properly, with "a", into the inn's guest register.


----------



## analogsurviver

zorin said:


> The story is that when a branch of the Mackintosh clan was moving to America, many a year ago, the letter "a" somehow got lost during the long and hard voyage.
> When a "Mckintosh", from across the ocean and on his travels, were to find himself stranded in a Mackintosh countryside of Scotland and wanting to book a room for a night at a local inn, he would be kindly asked to write the name Macintosh properly, with "a", into the inn's guest register.


 
 The unforgettable scene and sentence from the *Do you remember Dolly Bell *movie : 
  http://bs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sje%C4%87a%C5%A1_li_se_Dolly_Bell%3F ( sory, you will have to use online translator )
  

  
_Each and every day, from any possible angle, I advance more !_


----------



## ]eep

Tnx Zorin, I stand corrected. And great story. 

There is a better way to straddle a led: open it up and place a resistor over (small value) or before it (680R). And another tip: use blacklight leds.  Seriously, ultraviolet leds have a blueish purple colour but they emit a very stylish soft light that is never bright. 385nm is just on (across) the border of the visual spectrum. Here's a picture that shows different colours in comparison, the purple ones top left are not even UV but purple (according to the text, not sure though). Since it is very difficult to capture monochromatic light on a digital camera ( as you can tell from bbopheads picture where the leds light up the entire covering sticker looking very unreal) this picture captures the flavour rather well. White and blue are often very piercing. That has to do with wavelength, dispersion and the sensitivity of the cones in your retina.


----------



## bbophead

You are correct, sir.  My cones are very sensitive.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> You are correct, sir.  My cones are very sensitive.


 
 Ohhhh - and I _thought that _last pic were the blue LEDs covered with ( sic ! ) blue tack - but it was just the trouble described photographing blue LEDs by jeep ( whom I know not to be a car ... ) .
  
 Consider those 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - removed ... - and I seriously hope next fashion latest/greatest LED colour will be something more pleasing to the eye not requiring dimming or removal out of sight.


----------



## ]eep

It's a bit off-topic, but if you compare the 3 colours the cones in your retina are sensitive for with led colours you can tell what colours are bright and which aren't. 

added up that gives:


you can see the blue hits right centre 450

and here is how your camera sees it in comparison. It totally blinds the CMOS. You can see this same effect in newsitems or realityshows with blue warninglights.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> It's a bit off-topic, but if you compare the 3 colours the cones in your retina are sensitive for with led colours you can tell what colours are bright and which aren't.
> 
> added up that gives:
> 
> ...


 
 Interesting - due to the blue LEDs being so "loud" to me, is it possible my cones to be above average sensitive at these wavelenghts ?


----------



## bbophead

You probably need to cone it down.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> You probably need to cone it down.


----------



## MohawkUS

analogsurviver said:


> Interesting - due to the blue LEDs being so "loud" to me, is it possible my cones to be above average sensitive at these wavelenghts ?




Perhaps, when I was young I had a period of a few years where the color red appeared so bright to me that it would give me headaches. :evil: I'd be really interested in finding out what could have caused that, and I'm glad that it went away on its own. A family member told me of an older man that she ran into once whom had the same problem. The man was a manager and it was company policy that anyone whom worked under him could not come into work with red clothing.


----------



## ]eep

That reminds me of a painting in the Stedelijk Museum in Amsterdam (modern art) that was attacked with a utility-knife 1986. That puts it in an entirely new perspective. There was a row over the restauration that cost around 40k (IIRC), they were supposed to paint it over with tiny red dots, but instead it was done with a paintroller. As if that matters, that's entirely not the point of the painting. But that it was attacked is a compliment to the artist in fact. The value is in the idea, execution is to justify price of the painting. And using a paintroller is herecy. :rolleyes:



> Who's Afraid of Red, Yellow and Blue is a series of four large-scale paintings by Barnett Newman painted between 1966 and 1970. Two of them have been the subject of vandalistic attacks in museums.






The complementary (opposite) colour green is often perceived as soothing. That makes the colour in the McIntosh a well chosen colour. Strange how different colours have different connotations and cultural values. Like red is the colour of happiness in the east, white associated with death. We tend to associate golden yellow with happiness and black with death. Blue for boys, pink for girls. And in anthroposofy (new age) there's a whale range of associations with planets and gems and.... Listen to Holst - The Planets. My Decca Karajan version has the exact same colour as McIntosh. Lovely cover.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> That reminds me of a painting in the Stedelijk Museum in Amsterdam (modern art) that was attacked with a utility-knife 1986. That puts it in an entirely new perspective. There was a row over the restauration that cost around 40k (IIRC), they were supposed to paint it over with tiny red dots, but instead it was done with a paintroller. As if that matters, that's entirely not the point of the painting. But that it was attacked is a compliment to the artist in fact. The value is in the idea, execution is to justify price of the painting. And using a paintroller is herecy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 GREAT POST !
  
 Strange - I do find the cover art of this version of Planets soothing and comfortable - yet the more or less same colours of MCIntosh equipment have exactly the opposite effect - on me at least.
 I guess some of these reactions are acquired during our lifetime trough experience - the colour and shape of a car I once have chosen and loved turned into pain - after that car got stolen, never to be seen again. Still hurts whenever the same car/colour  is seen in the streets 10 years down the road - but it did pale down in recent(ish) days.


----------



## Androb

TT for todays evening session.


----------



## bbophead

Shhweet!


----------



## ]eep

That Akai really does look like the business. Simple, elegant and yet sturdy.


----------



## Androb

]eep said:


> That Akai really does look like the business. Simple, elegant and yet sturdy.


 
 Yep  Pretty damn heavy aswell, although our DUAL sounds better. 
 Got a few more TT upstairs that i'm going to try out!


----------



## Androb

Here is some pictures of one of my favourite TT at home. Unfortunately it's running a pretty poor cartridge tho which i'm not too fond of!


----------



## Clayton SF

Deutsche Grammophone showcases their new vinyl releases on a Technics turntable. Interesting. I guess if it good enough for DG, it should be good enough for me. I'm digging mine out of my closet. I bought it in 2009 and only used it for a month. Of course I've got to find out which cartridge they use. 
  
 https://www.facebook.com/deutschegrammophon?fref=nf


----------



## bbophead

clayton sf said:


> Deutsche Grammophone showcases their new vinyl releases on a Technics turntable. Interesting. I guess if it good enough for DG, it should be good enough for me. I'm digging mine out of my closet. I bought it in 2009 and only used it for a month. Of course I've got to find out which cartridge they use.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/deutschegrammophon?fref=nf


 

 You bettah.


----------



## fastharley

I do too.For many years I wanted a Mac. amplifier and never could afford one.30 years later I saw one for sale and they still wanted 5000.00 for it.Only one i ever saw used for sale.Now I can afford one...( could not find one)  so I ended up with a Marantz K1 Pearl which I am very,very happy with.


----------



## ]eep

> Deutsche Grammophone showcases their new vinyl releases on a Technics turntable. Interesting. I guess if it good enough for DG, it should be good enough for me.



If I relate what DG albums fetch on Ebay to quality I wouldn't really see that as a recommendation. If quantity and bloat is a measure for quality then go ahead. DG have always had an eye for commerce so the choice for the SL1200 is understandable. But do yourself a favour and try to understand the difference between a turntable intended for hifi reproduction and a DJ-TT. Different demands dictate different compromises.


----------



## Clayton SF

]eep said:


> If I relate what DG albums fetch on Ebay to quality I wouldn't really see that as a recommendation. If quantity and bloat is a measure for quality then go ahead. DG have always had an eye for commerce so the choice for the SL1200 is understandable. But do yourself a favour and try to understand the difference between a turntable intended for hifi reproduction and a DJ-TT. Different demands dictate different compromises.


 
  
 As I recall, the SL1200 turntable was released in 1972, 42 years ago. Back then it was considered a high-end turntable. Maybe that was the TT of choice for DG back then--nostalgia. So what was high-end then is now DJ quality?


----------



## ]eep

No, that is not it. Why would it be the turntable of choice back then when this Facebook picture is completely random? The photographer hired by the add-company just took a picture with what he could find, or maybe they (the add-boys) 'know' it will turn on the undiscerning crowd on facebook? I really don't want to talk about the SL1200 *again*. :rolleyes: It is old and overrated and really not worth talking about. 
If it ever was considered 'high end' that was probably not in the sense of high-end *hifi* but as it was designed (as a DJ-turntable, idiotproof and able to withstand scratching which was cool in the '80-ies)). But I doubt it. I know, I was around then. Back then the names were Garrard, Thorens, Dual and Lenco. And SOTA and a few others. Back then Japanese brands were still considered rubbish, like Chinese brands are right now. Especially by Germans who are always somewhat patriotic. And why would Deutsche Grammophon be nostalgic about a Japanese TT? IMHO there is no point in reading to much in to it.


----------



## bbophead

Woo, sure glad you cleared that up.


----------



## Clayton SF

]eep said:


> No, that is not it. Why would it be the turntable of choice back then when this Facebook picture is completely random? The photographer hired by the add-company just took a picture with what he could find, or maybe they (the add-boys) 'know' it will turn on the undiscerning crowd on facebook? I really don't want to talk about the SL1200 *again*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well you have outlined very good points and were very fortunate to be around those great TTs of the past.
  
 I have no idea why Deutsche Grammophone would be nostalgic about a Japanese TT, just a bad assumption, I guess, judging from that photo I posted. Well, back in the closet goes the SL1200 (and it's the last time I'll mention it unless I forget in the future which I tend to do).  _I need a shot of jajum!_


----------



## parbaked

clayton sf said:


> Well you have outlined very good points and were very fortunate to be around those great TTs of the past.
> 
> I have no idea why Deutsche Grammophone would be nostalgic about a Japanese TT, just a bad assumption, I guess, judging from that photo I posted. Well, back in the closet goes the SL1200 (and it's the last time I'll mention it unless I forget in the future which I tend to do).  _I need a shot of jajum!_


 
 Yes we are so fortunate to have Jeep to our arbitrate our taste...without him sooooo many could have the misfortune to actually enjoy their SL1200...


----------



## zorin

Please click for the video to play 
  
 http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/vinyls-resurrection-sales-at-a-record-high/
  
 Edit - added on - [eliminating static electricity] http://www.stereophile.com/content/entry-level-17


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> No, that is not it. Why would it be the turntable of choice back then when this Facebook picture is completely random? The photographer hired by the add-company just took a picture with what he could find, or maybe they (the add-boys) 'know' it will turn on the undiscerning crowd on facebook? I really don't want to talk about the SL1200 *again*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Well, we did have similar debate before.
  
 No, Technics is NOT rubbish - never was. SL1200/10 did start as an audiophile TT - and after DJs discovered they can pull the stunts on it that were impopssible with other TTs, it became modified>specialized for the DJ work. 
  
 1200/10 is NOT the last word - in anything. It was built to a price point, there are compromises. But the concept IS sound - otherwise there would be no external PSUs for it, no better bearings ( around 500 British Pounds for the bearing alone ! ), etc, etc - it can be modded into a superdeck. By the time a 1200/10 is actually a superdeck in audiophille sense, the cost of the basic unit becomes next to invisible. So do not think you have a giant killer if it is in stock condition - but it does have potential of becoming one at a price that is still reasonable compared to decks of comparable performance being built today.
  
 Technics did build a serious TT that still puts anything else to shame. The awesome SP-02 http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/84/847077.html . Actually, it was meant as an upgrade motor unit for the best Neumann cutting lathe ever built. Mechanics has been built by Lyrec in Denmark and Technics took care of electronics. 30 or so kg 40 cm platter platter that reaches 78 RPM from dead start in 1/3rd of a revolution - with electronics of the size of a washing machine for the motor alone. In 1978, it cost cool 80.000,00 DEM ( German Marks, roughly 40 K$ ) -
 and did sport a looong version of the EPA 100 Mk2 tonearm - the ONLY tonearm in the world ever that had its tube made out of boron. This illustrates to what lengths Japanese manufacturers had to resort in order to build image and get taken seriously in the West.
  
 Even the much scaled down SP-10 MKIII is still awesome and remains one of the best TTs ever made - this is something entirely different than "overgrown" version of 1200/10 called SP-10 MKII that was built in MUCH greater numbers than the III - which maintains its price around 5-10K (depending on condition, arm, cartridge etc) to this day. For a reason.
  
 Otherwise, Deutsche Grammophon does have history of collaborating with Technics - at least DVD-A has been proposed as a "joint venture" - but it never really took off.
  
 However, when you ask random public to associate a picture with "turntable" - in 9 out of 10 cases it would be 1200/10. It has become an icon that simply is unlikely to ever become obsolete - and like it or not, it IS the most important and influential TT ever built. We audiophiles owe BIG THANKS to the DJ crowd - they did keep the vinyl related sales high enough for the vinyl to survive during the days CD has been crushing everything in its wake.


----------



## bbophead

parbaked said:


> clayton sf said:
> 
> 
> > Well you have outlined very good points and were very fortunate to be around those great TTs of the past.
> ...


 

 +1


----------



## vocalstrance

I can't load a picture yet, but I am happy with my Audio Technica LP120 that i plan to rip the built in phono preamp out of in a few months. Then add a Schiit Mani into the mix.


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## Anavel0

I've had my Mani since launch and thoroughly enjoy it. Not sure if it's break-in of equipment or my ears focusing in on previously unheard details; but this last weekend long listen session sounded the best yet. I felt like highs were clearer/better detailed.


----------



## ]eep

I am not arguing taste, just historical facts. If you want to use an SL1200 there is nothing against it. I just argued that "_I guess if it good enough for DG, it should be good enough for me._" is a strange conclusion based on a Facebook picture. And that "_Back then it was considered a high-end turntable. Maybe that was the TT of choice for DG back then--nostalgia. So what was high-end then is now DJ quality_?" is simply not true, just speculation. What I am saying is that engineering for a DJ-TT requires a different set of compromises than for a high fidelity TT. For instance a DJ-TT must have a very fast startup acceleration. A hifi-TT requires a stable speed and plattersurface, low rumble and best possible platter-lp contact. A DJ-TT doesn't really need any of that so they can be traded off if necessary. The needs of a hifi-TT are best served by a heavy inert platter brought up to speed by a small quiet motor via a thin belt. The Inertia does the rest. Inertia is just what you do _not_ want in a DJ-TT, nor a smalll motor. Mass is not the only way for a hifi-TT but is surely cheaper, longer lasting and error free in comparison to complicated direct-drive electronics. Just think it through and you will understand why I say what I say. Not because I would want to impose my opinion.


----------



## vocalstrance

Jeep, thank you for the comparison. For some in the audio world like me are still learning. I appreciate your objective view


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> I am not arguing taste, just historical facts. If you want to use an SL1200 there is nothing against it. I just argued that "_I guess if it good enough for DG, it should be good enough for me._" is a strange conclusion based on a Facebook picture. And that "_Back then it was considered a high-end turntable. Maybe that was the TT of choice for DG back then--nostalgia. So what was high-end then is now DJ quality_?" is simply not true, just speculation. What I am saying is that engineering for a DJ-TT requires a different set of compromises than for a high fidelity TT. For instance a DJ-TT must have a very fast startup acceleration. A hifi-TT requires a stable speed and plattersurface, low rumble and best possible platter-lp contact. A DJ-TT doesn't really need any of that so they can be traded off if necessary. The needs of a hifi-TT are best served by a heavy inert platter brought up to speed by a small quiet motor via a thin belt. The Inertia does the rest. Inertia is just what you do _not_ want in a DJ-TT, nor a smalll motor. Mass is not the only way for a hifi-TT but is surely cheaper, longer lasting and error free in comparison to complicated direct-drive electronics. Just think it through and you will understand why I say what I say. Not because I would want to impose my opinion.


 
 "If you want to use an SL1200 there is nothing against it."
  
 Thanks for that. 
  
 So was the original SL1200 different from the current model?  If so, how so?


----------



## Clayton SF

]eep said:


> "_I guess if it good enough for DG, it should be good enough for me._" *is a strange conclusion based on a Facebook picture*. And that "_Back then it was considered a high-end turntable. Maybe that was the TT of choice for DG back then--nostalgia. So what was high-end then is now DJ quality_?" *is simply not true, just speculation. *


 
  
*... a strange conclusion based on a Facebook picture.* Say what? It was a conclusion (my conclusion) drawn from years of respect that I've had for DG--that's all. No more, no less.
  
 Now can I have a chocolate cookie and enjoy it without someone telling me it's bad for me. Except for maybe my mother (who actually baked it for me)  Hehehe.


----------



## Paul Graham

]eep said:


> I am not arguing taste, just historical facts. If you want to use an SL1200 there is nothing against it. I just argued that "_I guess if it good enough for DG, it should be good enough for me._" is a strange conclusion based on a Facebook picture. And that "_Back then it was considered a high-end turntable. Maybe that was the TT of choice for DG back then--nostalgia. So what was high-end then is now DJ quality_?" is simply not true, just speculation. What I am saying is that engineering for a DJ-TT requires a different set of compromises than for a high fidelity TT. For instance a DJ-TT must have a very fast startup acceleration. A hifi-TT requires a stable speed and plattersurface, low rumble and best possible platter-lp contact. A DJ-TT doesn't really need any of that so they can be traded off if necessary. The needs of a hifi-TT are best served by a heavy inert platter brought up to speed by a small quiet motor via a thin belt. The Inertia does the rest. Inertia is just what you do _not_ want in a DJ-TT, nor a smalll motor. Mass is not the only way for a hifi-TT but is surely cheaper, longer lasting and error free in comparison to complicated direct-drive electronics. Just think it through and you will understand why I say what I say. Not because I would want to impose my opinion.


 

 Im an audiophile AND an Ex Club DJ, So Ive experienced both sides of the coin if you like.
 Home here I still have my original SL1200 MKII's & a Pair of SL1210 M3D's, But I far prefer using my Rega P3 
 for listening then my Technics.
 Don't get me wrong, I have done in the past before I had the Rega and they ARE good turntables, But compared to my P3 they just sound different, They don't feel like they have as much "Body" or substance  I've listened to both with the same Cart, Platter Mat, Solid block of wood underneath etc.
 The thing is, You can put £1000's into a 1200 or 1210 to make it sound unbelievably good, But then that money could buy an audiophile grade tt from the get-go......
  
 If I had endless amounts of cash, Yes I probably would get one or two of my Technics modified and brought up to scratch ( Pun NOT intended in this case  ) Just for the hell of it and my love for the Technics brand.
  
 But seeing as that will never be the case for me, I will stick to my P3 & continue upgrading the parts until such time as I can afford a better table.


----------



## Paul Graham

bbophead said:


> "If you want to use an SL1200 there is nothing against it."
> 
> Thanks for that.
> 
> So was the original SL1200 different from the current model?  If so, how so?


 
  
 Pitch variance, No "stop" where the pitch is zero'd out ( where it was in the MKI & MKII models. Not sure on MKIII )
 Pitch Lock ( Quartz Lock ) on later models.
 Then the Tone arm assembly on the MKV is different again.
 There are others but cant remember for now.
 Also there was a run of LTD Ed Gold Plated 1210's for a while too.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I am not arguing taste, just historical facts. If you want to use an SL1200 there is nothing against it. I just argued that "_I guess if it good enough for DG, it should be good enough for me._" is a strange conclusion based on a Facebook picture. And that "_Back then it was considered a high-end turntable. Maybe that was the TT of choice for DG back then--nostalgia. So what was high-end then is now DJ quality_?" is simply not true, just speculation. What I am saying is that engineering for a DJ-TT requires a different set of compromises than for a high fidelity TT. For instance a DJ-TT must have a very fast startup acceleration. A hifi-TT requires a stable speed and plattersurface, low rumble and best possible platter-lp contact. A DJ-TT doesn't really need any of that so they can be traded off if necessary. The needs of a hifi-TT are best served by a heavy inert platter brought up to speed by a small quiet motor via a thin belt. The Inertia does the rest. Inertia is just what you do _not_ want in a DJ-TT, nor a smalll motor. Mass is not the only way for a hifi-TT but is surely cheaper, longer lasting and error free in comparison to complicated direct-drive electronics. Just think it through and you will understand why I say what I say. Not because I would want to impose my opinion.


 
 One way or another, fact remains that direct drive, if well implemented, does give better speed characteristics. A version of SL1200, the SL-10, STILL holds the record for lowest wow & flutter ever measured using real test record. Rubber belt with perfectly "round, flat, equally thick" characteristics simply does not exist. To this end, better>best "belt drives" no longer use rubber belts - silicone belt(s) - yes, multiple, I have seen up to 3 belts, threads similar to dental floss (even made out of glass ! ), tapes from compact cassette or VHS casette, etc.
 All these measures are meant to reduce the effects of the resonance turntable platter has with the compliance of the "belt" - in other words, "belt" should not stretch at all.
 Some belt driven tables even considered this unfortunate rubber characteristic - and made the "dynamics/time constant " of their speed control in such a way that the two effectively cancelled out. The only fly in the ointment that new belt would be too short/tight and old one too long/stretched to have the exact resonant characteristic to "pair" with the speed control - giving you a relatively short amount of time when the belt is exactly "right" .  
  
 I agree there are different sets of compromise for a DJ and audiophile TT. There is no reason why a DJ TT could not have low rumble or good platter surface - although it is not required for DJ work and would drive the price up unnecessarily. The "rumble" one can hear from a SL1200 compared to a "perfect" rumble free TT and its better belt driven competition is 99,999999 % the mains frequency (and multiples ) emanating from the in-built power transformer. Above mentioned SL-10
 ( SAME motor as SL-1200 , but electronics optimized for audiophile use ) sounds markedly better if powered from 12 V DC - it was meant to be portable ! Once that layer of transformer induced unmentionables is heard removed in a high resolution system, going back to the transformer within the deck mains powered "sound" is hard. That is why all top DD TTs used outboard electronics - it is in the execution/price, not the principle.  It is impossible to eliminate the effects of belt - regardless of $ applied.
  
 There is a drawback with long lasting of Direct Drive. They use quite advanced electronics - and there are capacitors used in this electronics. Particularly electrolityc capacitors are prone to failure with age - and if the failing capacitors force active devices like transistors and particularly ICs to and beyond their limits, this can and does lead to failures of by now sometimes unobtainium parts. Therefore, I DO recommend replacing each and every capacitor in a DD table with the new and better quality capacitors - to extend their lifetime for at least another 30 or so years. Which brings us to 1200 again - it is the world's most prolific turntable, so spares should be available for considerable time - even if it means canibalizing. One can not do that with some super DDs that were built in really low numbers and if it fails ...
  
There is THE use for DD table : http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/84/843243.html


----------



## Clayton SF

analogsurviver said:


> <snip snip>
> There is THE use for DD table : http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/84/843243.html


 
  
 Wow. That's quite an inventive use of the Technics SL-1700mk2. And I would have never thought of using VHS tape as a belt.


----------



## analogsurviver

clayton sf said:


> Wow. That's quite an inventive use of the Technics SL-1700mk2. And I would have never thought of using VHS tape as a belt.


 
 It is as old as the hills - it has been done many times before. But it is the only example with photos I could find online. I am planning something similar, but with a twist - if going to these lengths ( and double TT footprint ... ), then I want even better speed stability.


----------



## Clayton SF

analogsurviver said:


> It is as old as the hills - it has been done many times before. But it is the only example with photos I could find online. I am planning something similar, but with a twist - if going to these lengths ( and double TT footprint ... ), then I want even better speed stability.


 
  

  
 I've always been fascinated with this design concept. What do you think of its mechanization?


----------



## bbophead

Looks like an erector set you'd need to play with all the time.


----------



## analogsurviver

Let the creator speak for himself ( AFTER we learn on  crash course some basic _*audio maniac *_Japanese ) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 :
  
  

  
 http://www.sakurasystems.com/products/koma.html
  
 I would like to see some objective reviews with measurements ( paper or nowadays internet can "survive" anything ... - including "review" as this : http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/innovative-hi-fi-47-laboratorys-koma-turntable/ - direct quotations in _Japlish _included ! ) or see/hear the thing in person.
  
 The last and only time I have been to the distributor of 47 Labs for Germany http://www.blackforestaudio.de/ it was sadly notable by its absence.
  
 It is an interesting concept of turntable - but vinyl record in direct contact with a relatively thin metal platter is a definitive no go in my book - at least until mechanical stylus of finite mass is being used to track the info in the groove. From this point of view, which IS the primal point of view of any turntable, the present design could not possibly be more flawed : http://www.lessloss.com/page.html?id=80


----------



## ]eep

47-Labs do have a knack of coming up with unconventional answers, and they tend to sound really well. And I trust it to sound good. On the technical level: 2 discs spinning in opposing directions are known to cancel out vibrations and asymetrical force (as in helicopters; no tailrotor needed). The bottom platter is supposed to (?) counter vibrations through the single belt. I haven't thought that TT through yet. 

Clayton, I still think your conclusion is logically flawed. I am questioning your logic, not your taste. 
IIRC you state: 
Fact 1: DG has earned a lot of respect 
Fact 2: DG places a picture of their new vinylrelease with an SL1200 TT on Facebook.
Conclusion: The SL1200 is respectable. 

But you imply some premises before this:
Premise 1: DG has a good reputation
premise 2: DG will only approve of high quality
Conclusion: Everything DG uses is high quality
If one of your premises is wrong the most correct logic will always lead to a wrong conclusion. I merely object to the second premise, not the facts. And sure, the reason why I say this is that I do not like SL1200 idolatry. And I do like the DG 'red stereo' and stereo 'tulips' releases (playing one now), they are awesome. Their Galleria digital remasters are awful. 



> One way or another, fact remains that direct drive, if well implemented, does give better speed characteristics. A version of SL1200, the SL-10, STILL holds the record for lowest wow & flutter ever measured using real test record. Rubber belt with perfectly "round, flat, equally thick" characteristics simply does not exist. To this end, better>best "belt drives" no longer use rubber belts - silicone belt(s) - yes, multiple, I have seen up to 3 belts, threads similar to dental floss (even made out of glass ! ), tapes from compact cassette or VHS casette, etc.
> 
> All these measures are meant to reduce the effects of the resonance turntable platter has with the compliance of the "belt" - in other words, "belt" should not stretch at all.



Again: here are some unspoken premises... I agree that a motor with the same steady speed will lead to a better result in DD than in belt-drive simply because the belt is a medium. Take out the medium and you will have taken out the problems it introduced. But... we're not talking about the same motor. All a motor really needs to do is keep the platter spinning (overcoming spindle- and needle-friction). Startup and stability are secundary. 

*The belt*
I don't think it is all that important. I know it isn't according to my own experience. You can use anything as a belt (well, almost). I never noticed any difference in playing performance (meaning I didn't hear any difference) between a worn belt that was 80% cracked rubber hanging on by a thread and a new one. I even made one up from sowing together narrow round rubberband covered with fabric (from my mothers sowing kit). That works just fine. I still use it as backup. 

*Force and acceleration* 
Mass does not have resonance. Mass has only inertia, the material has a youngs-modulus (stiffness - ergo speed of sound in the material) and internal damping. Resonance is mass in motion. And to set mass in motion you need force (F=M.a). For mass to resonate you need the force to fluctuate in time with the resonance of the material. Every kid on a swing knows: wrong timing>no motion. And if you have no-one to push you getting the swing to go up takes ages when you hang perfectly still to begin with. The longer the ropes are the longer it takes. And on swing with long chains it is impossible to gain a lot of height. Meaning: moment of inertia is mass times distance squared (and heavy chains are internal damping but let's leave that out for now). 

*Motor - platter interaction*
In a direct-drive you have a powerful motor driving a light perforated aluminium platter (also prone to ringing and therefore uncoupled from the vinyl. I have never really seen a DD with a massive platter). This means the motor can exert a lot of force on the light platter so it can start up fast. Once it is spinning all this power is shooting gnats with a naval gun. But, any fluctuations will be transmitted almost exactly 1:1 to the platter. F=M.a leading to F=big, M=low > a=high where acceleration fluctuation in platterspeed (wow and flutter). 
In a belt-drive turntable the motor is tiny but accurate, the platter is heavy (plus thick and inert). The force is transmitted by the belt, introducing a new set of parameters as explained by Analogsurviver. But once the platter is spinning there is hardly force exerted on the platter at all. This means that the influence of the belt is reduced to a fraction of that (almost zero). Any fluctuations produced by the combination of motor and belt will have very little influence since F=M.a where F=tiny, M= large > a=miniscule. Any nasties in the belt will have very little effect on the big mass of the platter. The quality and viscosity of the axis' lubricant and the tightness and surface smoothness of the bearings has more influence. And here the big electromotor is again caught at a disadvantage compared to, for instance, a magnetic - ceramic bearing. The interaction of needle/vinyl/platter is at a big disadvantage in the DD camp. 

*Belt dynamics*
The belt is in fact a double pendulum system. Most often the belt goes around a narrow motorspindle and all around the (sub)platter. The belt will hardly slip on the platter because of the large contact area. But it can slip on the spindle during spinup. This matters only if you want a fully automatic turntable. Once the platter is on the right speed this hardly matters as long as it can exert more force than platter- and needle-friction combined (plus a safety margin for wear as any engineer worth his salt will calculate). Well, there's the whole benefit of rubber, silicone or w/e antislip material. In fact, slipping prevents to much force possibly leading to fluctuation. Slipping is like ABS on a car, not always desirable but not bad as long as it's not to much. 
 Belt shape has to do with surface contact, surfacepressure and sticking. A wide tyre (flat belt) will give better street contact than narrow tyres. But a round belt is less likely to steer the wrong way. If a flat belt wants to steer up or down the side of the platter it has to fall back at some time, leading to speed decrease and increase (wow) (cos alpha * v, where alpha is larger with a flat belt because a round belt falls back sooner). Sticking (where the belt lets go of the platter it sticks) leads to wobbling of the belt (lateral excitement of the belt) which leads to flutter. 
 So where's the benefit in slippery beltmaterial other than that? Strenght? As I said the belt is a double pendulum connected to the motor spindle (platter=mass) like: mass, spring1, weight, spring2, mass. .i|~~~O~~|i. One side pulls, the other pushes. But since the belt is so thin it buckles before it can exert any force. But the ratio between the two is slightly different between thin fishing line, waxed string, (magnetic) tape or what have you. What is different though is the youngs-modulus of the belt leading to different speed of sound in the belt and so does the tension. And internal damping is different (and the mass of the belt is different, hold that thought). The tape (under tension) wil jerk considerably more than a rubber belt which will pull gently (dampened). Fishing line (Well Tempered) is nylon, strong but thin. It will slip less easy than tape. I'm not sure, and contrary to my surface tension road-tire story but there's also the aquaplaning story. Air can get trapped under the tape leading to loss of friction, like aquaplaning. And don't forget the section of the material: a high youngs-modulus with a small cross-section amounts to the same character as a large cross-section with a low youngs-modulus. Like bungee-jumping with a mountain-climbers rope is a lot softer than you think. 
 Then there is question of mass of the belt: a large mass in combination with resonance in the belt may lead to force on the platter. Low mass> low force, larger mass>higher force. But the ratio belt mass vs platter mass is so tiny it is like asking the question "what will scare the elephant more: a gnat or a mouse?". In truth elephants are not scared of mice. Or gnats FTM. They hate bees or wasps because of their sting. So I think a somewhat thicker elastic belt will be less intrusive than a thin rigid belt (thanks Dumbo :rolleyes. 


> All these measures are meant to reduce the effects of the resonance turntable platter has with the compliance of the "belt" - in other words, "belt" should not stretch at all.


 
In my opinion this is not only impossible but also unnecessary. If you want it is easy to control resonance in the belt. Just dampen it. Let the belt gently stroke a strip of velvet and you're done. I wonder why no-one has ever tried this. If it is an issue at all that is. 
And why the SL10 has the best measurements ever? I guess that contemporary serious TT manufacturers do not want to burn their fingers on non essential specs. Mass always wins in stability. An atomic clock will always win a time-measurement contest (because Cs Hz is declared the de facto standard) but he clock will always follow the movement of the earth with correcting leap seconds. 
Off-topic: yes, I am saying that an atomic clock is not as accurate as the movement of the planets, because if it were the planets would be speeding up, which is impossible.

*Conclusion*
There are so many variables in a turntable that it is not that simple to come to any conclusive statement. And we haven't even talked about the different type of arms for DJ-TT and HiFi-TT. Engineering is all about taking the right compromise for the job at hand.


----------



## Clayton SF

]eep said:


> Clayton, I still think your conclusion is logically flawed. I am questioning your logic, not your taste.
> IIRC you state:
> Fact 1: DG has earned a lot of respect
> Fact 2: DG places a picture of their new vinylrelease with an SL1200 TT on Facebook.
> Conclusion: The SL1200 is respectable.





> But you imply some premises before this:
> Premise 1: DG has a good reputation
> premise 2: DG will only approve of high quality
> Conclusion: Everything DG uses is high quality
> If one of your premises is wrong the most correct logic will always lead to a wrong conclusion. I merely object to the second premise, not the facts. And sure, the reason why I say this is that I do not like SL1200 idolatry. And I do like the DG 'red stereo' and stereo 'tulips' releases (playing one now), they are awesome. Their Galleria digital remasters are awful.





> Off-topic: yes, I am saying that an atomic clock is not as accurate as the movement of the planets, because if it were the planets would be speeding up, which is impossible.


 
  
 ]eep: You do have a wealth of valuable information.
  
 Perhaps I do at times draw conclusions more from my emotions and by association than from logic. You know, for instance: S_ince a good trusted friend of mine likes a certain restaurant then for sure I know that I'm going to like it too_. Sometimes it turns out NOT to be a good restaurant though. I am human; I am flawed and that's okay with me.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> 47-Labs do have a knack of coming up with unconventional answers, and they tend to sound really well. And I trust it to sound good. On the technical level: 2 discs spinning in opposing directions are known to cancel out vibrations and asymetrical force (as in helicopters; no tailrotor needed). The bottom platter is supposed to (?) counter vibrations through the single belt. I haven't thought that TT through yet.
> 
> Clayton, I still think your conclusion is logically flawed. I am questioning your logic, not your taste.
> IIRC you state:
> ...


 
 I will return when more time will be available - only wanted to say that arms for DJ - TT and HIFI - TT are not necessary worlds apart. We all know how arm on 1210 look like - 
  
  

 Technics EPA 100
  

 Technics EPA 100 MK2
  

 Technics EPA 250
  

  

  
  
 Technics EPA 500
  
 It is in the attention to detail ( and resulting cost ... ), but basically it is the same arm.  The above arms still represent some of the pinnacles of tonearm design - even after approximately 30 + years. This specially holds true for the EPA 100 Mk2 - its tube and headshell is made out of boron. It is the only tonearm to ever use boron in its construction - it just does not get stiffer than that (short of arm made out of diamond - impossible in real life  ).
 All the above EPA arms feature Dynamic Damping as a part/main feature of their counterweight and allow for the best possible supression of the cartridge suspension/cart+arm effective mass resonance that occurs around 10 Hz. It is continiusly adjustable on 100 and 250 arms, 501 armwands (6 in total including T4P version ) allow for the similar within certain cartridge mass/compliance range but feature fixed dynamic damping without adjustability.
  
 Those who have experienced how a properly adjusted EPA sounds know what I am talking about. There are MANY tonearm designers/sellers that still to this day do not get what dynamic damping is all about , let alone the vinyl enthusiasts - but comparing another arm without it using the same cartridge on the same table usually results in a very rude awakening.
  
 In 1990, I literally had to corner Mr. Van den Hul over the phone regarding which tonearm he uses personally.
 He tried his best evading the inevitable by suggesting the best arms currently available at the time ( SME V, Eminent Technology ET 2, Well Tempered Arm, etc ) - only at the direct question "EPA 100?" he had no more choice but to "confess".  ( I was familiar with and did measure all 4 arms at the time )
  
 There is a difference if a tonearm/cartridge resonates at its resonant frequency with the peak of + 12 dB ( or so, usual common value ) -
 or less than + 4 dB. In dB this does not seem to be THAT dramatic - but dB is logarithmic. In %, it is completely different story : + 12 dB represents roughly 400 % above "should be/perfect" response, + 4dB roughly 40 % above.
  
 In other words - properly adjusted dynamic damping on EPA 100 is _roughly ten times better _than any competing arm not featuring dynamic damping using the same cartridge. It is a looong story - that can only be answered in full by http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=1281 or if you mind registering with vinylengine : http://www.theanalogdept.com/images/spp6_pics/TT_Design/MechanicalResonances.pdf
  
 It _is technical _and it is not easy reading - but anyone who wishes to get the most out of vinyl records should have at least vague understandng of this paper. It treats _record player _( cartridge, tonearm, turntable ) as *unity *that has to work together - it is a team, and like a football/soccer team, the one that does work together although comprised of "mediocre" players will achieve better result than a team of superstars who would each like to have the ball from one goal across the entire field into opposite team's goal all by themselves.
  
 Now imagine what can be done with a team of superstars that DO work together - in turntable world, such a team is perhaps most easily assembled from components by Technics. Despite being less glamorous than Koetsu Model Whatever, Technics did produce cartridges in the same price range - and they were and still are the pinnacle we are likely to never see again. Ask yourself - shopping for a top cartridge in 1980, with a then top budget of 1000 $, what would you do : Koetsu, Dynavector Karat Diamond, Technics EPC  P100CMK4 ?
  
 Based on reviews at the time, Technics did not even exist ...
  
 It did come late in the game, it is expensive, it is rare (only saw it once in person ) - but light it is not :
  
 http://www.thevintageknob.org/technics-SP-10MK3.html


----------



## analogsurviver

"Collateral damage # XY" :
  

  
 http://www.thesoliduniverse.com/2014/04/vinyl-audio-diy-linear-tonearm.html
  
BRILLLIANT  IDEA !


----------



## zorin

analogsurviver said:


> "Collateral damage # XY" :
> 
> 
> 
> ...




  
*Excuse me for posting this but why nobody has ever thought of this mega-brilliant idea ?*


----------



## analogsurviver

zorin said:


> *Excuse me for posting this but why nobody has ever thought of this mega-brilliant idea ?*


 
 Hehe, completely forgot this one - but shall we stay with turntables, even if they play


----------



## ]eep

It is a good idea, but not for mass-market. It is just as easy as making a long DIY Well Tempered Arm just as long as your carbonfibre arrow will go (remember; the longer the arm the less the angle error). But the water will evaporate, meaning you will have to water your turntable just as often as your plants to maintain the right VTA. I know because I have an oil dampened unipivot arm (Opera Consonance T988 a halfsister to the WT) that needs new oil too once in a while. 
And there you have a list of examples right off the bat that are totally usuitable for DJ-use. Unipivot, knife-edge 2-point pivot, air-bearing, fluid bearing arms are all unusable for DJ use. Only cardanic bearing arms are suitable for DJ use and they demand the tightest (hence expensive) tolerances. A simple but brilliant arm like the WT is out of the question.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> It is a good idea, but not for mass-market. It is just as easy as making a long DIY Well Tempered Arm just as long as your carbonfibre arrow will go (remember; the longer the arm the less the angle error). But the water will evaporate, meaning you will have to water your turntable just as often as your plants to maintain the right VTA. I know because I have an oil dampened unipivot arm (Opera Consonance T988 a halfsister to the WT) that needs new oil too once in a while.
> And there you have a list of examples right off the bat that are totally usuitable for DJ-use. Unipivot, knife-edge 2-point pivot, air-bearing, fluid bearing arms are all unusable for DJ use. Only cardanic bearing arms are suitable for DJ use and they demand the tightest (hence expensive) tolerances. A simple but brilliant arm like the WT is out of the question.


 
 One could add a water tank and control the level with valve(s) - VTA on the fly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 
  
 Yes, any liquid will evaporate - sooner or after. What I like about this arm is the fact that that it does not rely on lateral contact with the groove to propel itself across the playing surface and that it has a really LARGE surface across the energy can be drained into support - the whole surface of the semi-ball, infinitely larger than anything more conventional. About a decade ago, there was a very expensive Italian turntable with lots and lots quartz sand an arm floating on liquid.
  
  I agree that any tonearm that is not supported by rigid bearings is unsuiutable for DJ work.


----------



## vocalstrance

Mineral oil might be a safer bet.


----------



## analogsurviver

vocalstrance said:


> Mineral oil might be a safer bet.


 
 If you check the link, it does say why water is preferable - for a myriad of reasons. If you can find "some" oil with even less viscosity than water ( VdH sells some doped with nano spheres for normal tonearm bearings, hate to calculate how much it would cost to fill an ice cream container... ) at a reasonable cost, please let me know.
 ( And look into ANY open oil container after a few months could be appealing to die hard insect preparator only )
  
 This design could really start getting interesting using very low mass cartridges ( 2.X gram class, both MM and MC have been available, for the most determined machining an adaptor for the Bang & Olufsen MMC 1-5 to fit directly into the tube might be the way to go   ) , allowing for shortening of the counterweight side tube and putting on heavier counterweight, all within the floating limits of the semi-ball "bearing". It would mean less inertia of the entire system and better resonance characteristics of the tube - which being double carbon fibre tube with foam filling in between is no slouch as it is.


----------



## vocalstrance

i didn't consider viscosity. I was only using my knowledge that people that build an oil cooled computer (in a fish tank), typically use mineral oil. And yes it is costly. Still a great design on the turntable.


----------



## ]eep

As great as the idea seems, I see all kinds of caveats. 


 The rod. Why a rod? It has friction, resulting in a jerky movement as shows in the clip. Socalled 'crabbing' across the record. And it is curved. 
 
So why not attach another pivoting arm or string (2 strings top/bottom) to the bowl? A pantograph is a lot easier. I do not mean this arm in particular, it's very expensive since it uses a lot of tiny ballbearings, but the principle for guiding the bowl.
 Why is the arm sticking out all the way to the back? This drastically and needlessly increases effective arm mass. 
 Why are the armleads coming out all the way at the back? The stiffness of the lead will mess up free movement, they will weave and jerk and affect azimuth. 
 How is the armrod connected to the bowl? This is a crucial point for rigidity and draining off excess energy to mass (the water in this case). It is just a simple plastic bowl and as any architect (my expertise) can tell you a dome is weakest at the rim. The rim will vibrate excessively as it is excited by the rod. Just like a kalimba where the armwand is the spring and the bowl is the resonator. Since the bowl floats in the water and the rod is an inch or so above the waterlevel there is plenty of surface for undampened resonance. With a low compliance cartridge (or a Decca ) I doubt you will even need amplifier and speakers. Ok, I exaggerate but you get my meaning. 
 It is probably hell to set up properly. Just like an unbehaved unipivot. Not something you want to use in combination with a FG, vdH or hyperelliptic style needle. 
 Will the water pick up acoustic feedback from the speakers? 
 Got pets? I know a certain cat that would find all this mighty interesting. See if there are per chance any goldfish in the tank and use the water to quench her thirst. Lowering the waterlevel, spraying the surroundings with corrosive water and causing stains.
 How about algi growth? Add chlorine? 

This is all off the top of my head. 

All in all the large basin of water has a lot of practical real life drawbacks. Not to brag, but I thought of using a waterbasin for stability and massloading of the platterassembly some 25 years ago and saw too many drawbacks. The autoadjusting waterbourne tangential arm is a good idea but I personaly think that all this attention to the horizontal tracking angle has lead attention away from VTA and azimuth which IMO are much more critical, especially azimuth.


And now for something completely different: I've been buying a lot of 2ndH classical records lately. One was a 100+ lp collection and more from the 2ndH charity store I picked up some Readers Digest boxes. All I can say is; if you encounter one, don't pull up your nose but put it in the box. Take a good look. Often they are hardly played (meaning NM) and they are really great quality. I just bought an Arthur Rubinstein box: In the box are seperate shiny outersleeves, innersleeve with plastic lining and great 150gr RCA 1970 dynagroove lp's, complete concerts. Another box; Toscanini conducts 'light classical favoutites'. same quality RCA (only mono) also 1970. Really nice excerpts from well known music but not 'lightweight'. Great performances and (especially for mono) very good sound and superquiet. And some more stuff I found (Gilbert and Sullivan), some titles sound a bit dodgy (Mood Music) but the quality is outstanding. I saw an Isaac Stern box too somewhere covered in books. If the repertoire is right, get it.


----------



## yeahx

I'm a long way off from getting a turntable but between this thread and videos posted on youtube by MrVinylobsessive, I myself have become a little obsessed. Now I have officially bought my first LP with nothing to play it on because it was numbered limited pressing so it seemed like I should grab it for later. Did any of you guys do this before you had a turntable?


----------



## penmarker

yeahx said:


> I'm a long way off from getting a turntable but between this thread and videos posted on youtube by MrVinylobsessive, I myself have become a little obsessed. Now I have officially bought my first LP with nothing to play it on because it was numbered limited pressing so it seemed like I should grab it for later. Did any of you guys do this before you had a turntable?


 
 I did it with my Rick Astley - Whenever You Need Somebody record.


----------



## dosley01

A little thanksgiving themed vinyl listening.


----------



## bbophead

Wow, nice picture of your turntable.


----------



## ]eep

> Did any of you guys do this before you had a turntable?



Yeh, but that was Kim Wilde - Select. In 1982. But I had my fathers TT to play it on. 
At least now you have a legitimate reason to d/l it for the while being. 

Talking about Technics (oh I'm not done yet with those arms :rolleyes... Technics is back! 





Yes I see there's no TT in that picture, but according to Hifi+ there's a 'direct drive elephant' in the room. I don't see it though.  

edit:
Back to the elephant...


> The move toward high-resolution ... potentially adds further legitimacy to the ‘there’s more to music than iTunes’ cause, and the company linking itself so early in the story with 7 Music is a sign Technics means business here. But I can’t help feel this lacks the ‘hook’ required to grab the attention of a more mainstream buyer today.
> ...
> Back to that ‘hook’. Technics as a brand has one significant ‘hook’ in its back catalogue; the SL-1200 and subsequent direct drive turntables in that series. Although the SL-1210 turntable has been discontinued for four years, it manages to retain a loyal following. That’s some considerable understatement; the online following for this turntable is so profoundly loyal to the ‘Techie’, many will brook no criticism of the design. In fact, so powerful is this group that the word ‘Technics’ is virtually synonymous with the SL-1210. And Technics simply cannot make them anymore, because of tooling costs and unavailable parts. I suspect Technics may find itself trying to explain that it now makes digital audio, in perhaps the same way the Hoover Corporation tries to explain that it also makes washing machines and steam irons.



So, it _seems_ there is no elephant, but this explains (maybe) the DG picture with the SL1200. Just maybe there is something going on in the background? they can only spread rumours about but cannot show in public? (an official ad or mention on either official website). So they use Facebook (?) to 'massage' the masses. All just speculation on my part. But this is how the world works nowadays...
(all the 'evidence' in the MH17 case pointing to the Russians was posted on facebook and youtube :rolleyes.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Yeh, but that was Kim Wilde - Select. In 1982. But I had my fathers TT to play it on.
> At least now you have a legitimate reason to d/l it for the while being.
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I did post "Technics news" in http://www.head-fi.org/t/537704/calling-all-vintage-integrated-receiver-owners/13740#post_11073853
 post # 13744. I have not been so excited/overjoyed about anything audio since - forever ?
 ( Ritual Needle Dance to persude Technics to reintroduce up to date versions of their top EPCs - anyone care joining ?)
  
 And no, I am not done with those arms either - far from it - just "sharpening the knife" for the forthcoming recording, arm thing it is kind of on "standby". Funny thing - there ARE exactly the same solutions applicable to turntables and recording, this time I will use one of them for the recording first - which is a first, normally it is the other way around.


----------



## yeahx

Well Im not sure if I can find a download because I don't think they are popular enough and the LP is a combination of 2 of their albums. I got it because there were only 300 made which is the wrong reason, but I did like what I was able to find on youtube. It's Sleepy Eyes of Death - Dark/Horizon. Hey at least its a double green marble set so its pretty to look at. Anyways during one of my sad daily google searches for "turntable giveaway" I came across this so I thought Id post it since this is a picture thread.


----------



## ]eep

Maybe I can't get exited that easily, or it's just the wrong thing. What's the use of VU-meters on an amp? Afraid you might blow up your speakers? Typical transistor (Class-B) fault. You have to cranck the amp up to make it sound good, and just when you reach that point your speakers are 'woof'ers... (referring to the sound of fried voicecoil). As the article already said: "_From a technical perspective, I’m not convinced that a large 150W per channel chassis with huge VU meters is needed for what is basically a Class D amplifier design, although Technics insist the technology is more complex than a quick scan of the specifications suggests._". 
This, again, is the sort of bells and whistles that i liked as a kid when I didn't know the first thing about soundquality. I just liked the promise of high-tech which had the reassuring hypnotism of all the blinking lights. Sure, I know what vu-meters are for, from recording from the radio, and later from sitting behind a PA-console balancing all the mics and making sure theres clipping or feedback (easier to identify the culprit). But for an amp... for letting me know there is something being amplified that I can't hear? 

Similarly on other products, I later found out that the hightech way is *not* always the best way or my way. Engineering is not always about being able to use the best materials or correcting for everything. It starts with thinking about: what is it what I want. What do I need is secondary. It is making the best of what you _can_ use. When you've got that down to an art, better materials will give you a new lease but will never be an excuse to not keep thinking about fundamentals. And that will always be 'what is the _best compromise_ to get the endresult that I want?' And for that you need vision, creativity, a healthy worldview and good workethics. I don't usually associate corporate ethics with good ethics in general.

I was looking for a picture of Acoustic Signature's new WOW XL turntable icw the Funk FXR-II tonearm arm how I ended up at the Hifi+ website. This arm is on my shortlist, but unfortunately so is money...


This arm is based originally on the Rega RB300. But better in many ways, better than any arm, they say (backed up by measurements and graphs). It measures resonance peaks only 3dB. And it's simply (...) beautiful. And it is red. 
Another TT .. on the same list but same problem...

So I'm glad to 'settle' for this one.


I wanted to show a picture of the new WOW-XL which is bigger, bolder, heavier but also clunckier big brother to the first AS Wow. A bit less refined. The platter is thicker (35mm) with 10mm extra solid slab of Alu on the base. A bit less sleek 'budget'look.


----------



## bbophead

I enjoy my bells and whistles.


----------



## ]eep

If you like bells and whistles, I have some nice bagpipe music for you too.  

I think I prefer innovation and out of the box thinking. You can leave that to the folks at Funk Firm. 

Their new youngling. Some features that are simply 'not done', but work very well.


----------



## bbophead

]eep said:


> If you like bells and whistles, I have some nice bagpipe music for you too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I thought we were talking about VU meters on an amp.  My apologies.
  
 But, as I wrote, I like bells and whistles.  It's almost as if bells and whistles exclude good hi-fi, except, it doesn't.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> If you like bells and whistles, I have some nice bagpipe music for you too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Funk Firm is one of the most interesting firms involved in analog today. They do bark up the right tree, but are sometimes a bit clumsy about it. The catastrophe of this photo of Flamenca is the use of plain felt mat - their own Achromat mat would  bring it to quite another level, certainly more so than the difference between plain felt mat and Achromat. Here The Absolute Sound's take on Flamenca :  http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/funk-firm-flamenca-turntable.
  
 There are other "toneaems" that actually are pick-up arms without the "tone" - Audiomeca Septum is the first to spring to mind. Although Funk Firm FX-RII is no doubt a great tonearm  pick-up arm, before shelling out the cash I suggest reading http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/belladonna3_e.html . I have heard an earlier  unipivot of Pierre Lurne, but never a Septum; it is rare and getting  demo prior to purchase may prove really hard to get. I am not sure if it is still in production or not - but based on few reports that are out there it must really be an awesome sounding tonearm  pick-up arm. Phantom MK"latest/greatest" might be in a similar league, but only a direct comparison on the same table with the same type of cartridge mounted on both can really give the answer.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> I thought we were talking about VU meters on an amp.  My apologies.
> 
> But, as I wrote, I like bells and whistles.  It's almost as if bells and whistles exclude good hi-fi, except, it doesn't.


 
 Don't you boys have any nice _black _records ? Just kidding, I like this pic.
  
 Since I have zero/nada/nichts in picture disc department, I made a colossal mistake by forgetting to bid on this one the first time it appeared for sale - there were no offers :
  

  
 SAS AIRLINES PICTURE-DISC The Cliff Adams Singers CARAVELLE SAMBA 1960s  
 Round two sparked a bidding war beyond what I was prepared to pay.  It was obviously not meant to be. I still, besides being a 4-5 years old, remember to this day the first touchdown of a jet powered _Caravelle _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sud_Aviation_Caravelle_ _at the what was then called _Airport Brnik - _so, besides this one was in "wrong" livery ( the real one was from JAT, Jugoslovenski Aerotransport ), rare opportunity missed like this really hurts.


----------



## ]eep

Yes well, bidding... don't get me started. Just now 5 minutes ago I thought I had 2 Japanese albums, just 2 minutes to go highest and first bidder... I thought I had an automatic bid but maybe forgot to push 'enter'. Lost it.. Japanese Columbia SAX YRX 1006 12,50! :mad:


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Yes well, bidding... don't get me started. Just now 5 minutes ago I thought I had 2 Japanese albums, just 2 minutes to go highest and first bidder... I thought I had an automatic bid but maybe forgot to push 'enter'. Lost it.. Japanese Columbia SAX YRX 1006 12,50!


----------



## yeahx

Don't mean to seem spammy, but since you mention picture vinyl have you guys heard of kitwith.us?


----------



## analogsurviver

yeahx said:


> Don't mean to seem spammy, but since you mention picture vinyl have you guys heard of kitwith.us?


 
 Cute 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - too bad it is for me on the wrong continent for the mail to be reasonable.
  
 Mind sharing a few pics of the actual postcard records ?


----------



## yeahx

Funny thing is I just learned about it because they are part of a big giveaway The Nerdist is doing. Lots of vinyl stuff in there! I was surprised their homepage didn't have any examples. Makes me think of the flimsy record that I got in a cereal box. Was also wondering if anyone here was doing Vinyl Me Please. I think I would rather choose my own LPs but they have had some interesting stuff and they have prizes I guess. I'm going to be stuck with $1-8 thrift store and used deals if I ever get a TT set up.


----------



## Anavel0

I have some 7x7 square records, out of magazines.. They leave much to be desired in terms of fidelity. Probably because they're very thin.


----------



## ]eep

It doesn''t always have to be the best quality to be worth something. I had a promorecord for a cleaningcompany. It was an adaptation from a famous childrens radio play (the artist did _all_ the voices). That was (is still) my favourite record, chiseled in memory. It was on a floppy 7" disc. And my idiot brother gave it away years ago without my knowing. Fortunately I found an MP3 of it. Quality of the sound is low-fi, but the interpretation is marvelous. 

And I'm on the right continent too, if you like taxes and rates bordering on highwayrobbery. Arrived today 5 record from the US totalling $40,50. Shipping and handling (4lb) $44! And then duties and taxes another €19.70 over the $40.50! Totalling $110 for 5 records. That's almost 3x the value. :mad: I just hope the grief doesn't stick to the records. The records were very fairly priced. But this way I can get new albums in the B&M recordstore. Well, ok maybe not these...  
 NM COLUMBIA EMI CREAM GOLD
 NM Dorati LSO Mercury Living Presence Stereo
NM- MERCURY LIVING PRESENCE STEREO SOUND SERIES
NM RCA Living Stereo WHITE DOG

Confession... I already had these coming for about 3 wks, so I shouldn't really moan about the lost Japanese. The German cream/gold should be almost as good. And the others are the real deal concerning soundquality.

Edit. 
I had my first blast with the Wellington cannons and muskets. It sort of confirms what we talked about earlier about the needle. I had a look at the record before playing and I saw some strange patterns. The latter part of side one is spoken commentary how they recorded all the gunpowder shots. So, that means *dynamics* in a big way. Speach, silence followed by recorded 6- and 12-pounder guns and musket. The grooves clearly showed wear under the microscope (my cheap-ass 60x jewelers microscope). Even with the plain eye. Under the microscope you could see the groove go nuts. Big, fierce amplitudes with fast transients slowly dying out. Really, like 0.3 mm. And some white snow in the groove there. But when I played it, really not much inter-modulation distortion. It sounded quite decent. 
Since this is sort of a showpiece record, together with it's 1812 brother, this can be a show _stopper_ too. I think this has been played several times with a spherical needle causing damage in the top half of the groove. But with a better needle there is hardly any trouble. Proving my point that beat up records do *not* benefit from playing with a spherical needle (like the standard DL103). Anyway, the lp is getting a nice facewash now with a woodglue film. Getting rid of the grit. 

About those gold/cream German Columbia pressings (the Karajan Dvorak New World above is another examle): I've had quite a few now that have trouble with vinyl pressing quality issues. There are bubbles in the vinyl that in the course of 50+ years have collapsed causing little dents. Like a collapsed molepassage in your lawn only just a few mm wide. It causes a low intermittent thump noise. The sound is fantastic, the vinyl is quite clean too, except for those thump noises and a little tape hiss. But not as bad as the tape hiss on those old Mercury Living Presence issues. ATM I have only 1 Columbia blue/silver SAX, and this one does not have that bubble issue. It's a bit worn so there's crackle, but not much hiss. So maybe that is why these are so expensive. So these old records have their issues, but they sure sound good. Just like an old vigorous grandpa with plenty of character.


----------



## aroldan

I've got my Dvorak's 9th too!


----------



## garyalex

Here's my 12 year old Aries Black Knight with the JMW 10 arm.  I was thinking about replacing it with the Prime, but this table still works and sounds very good.  The mini HR-X stabilizer feet were a nice upgrade.


----------



## dosley01

Soundstage Direct was offering very good trade in values on the Prime.  They offered me $1600 for my Scout which was more than I paid for it.  I'm not sure if they are still doing the trade in program, they only had a few slots left but might be worth a call.


----------



## analogsurviver




----------



## Amictus

analogsurviver said:


>




 And the quadraphonic version...?


----------



## analogsurviver

amictus said:


> And the quadraphonic version...?


 
 Offer a finger, loose entire arm 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ...


----------



## bbophead

Looks like one could flip the stylus over and play some kind of 78.


----------



## ]eep

Which proves that without intelligence (reduction of entropy or; input of information) all evolution is destined for a dead end. Unviable and cumbersome. But fun to watch.


----------



## yeahx

Well a friend scored a full JVC set up. The belt snapped when they tried to test the turntable which was the main thing I wanted so he ended up getting it all for free. Now Im playing with home made drive belts until I get a new one. Anyone else here tried this? At least the wonky sound is kind of fun. 
  
 Took pics but they came out horrible and its not really worthy of this thread but still wanted to post. Turntable is a JVC L-F101


----------



## analogsurviver

yeahx said:


> Well a friend scored a full JVC set up. The belt snapped when they tried to test the turntable which was the main thing I wanted so he ended up getting it all for free. Now Im playing with home made drive belts until I get a new one. Anyone else here tried this? At least the wonky sound is kind of fun.
> 
> Took pics but they came out horrible and its not really worthy of this thread but still wanted to post. Turntable is a JVC L-F101


 
 One of the things most requiring precision is the belt in turntable. They can have price span of more than 1:10 - for some cheap generic (not necessary bad) vs guaranteed belt from a respectable source ( like original belts for Thorens ). Get at least generic one - whatever you might be doing during the time it would take you to make a reasonably unobjectionable belt at home would ensure you a lifetime supply of drive belts ...


----------



## yeahx

Oh yeah I know. Just wanted to see the thing work even if only barely. None of my attempts at belt making were good enough for listening anyways but I think I got pretty close. Happy to get it for free but was sad that such a little thing was making it temporarily unusable. I'm sure there is a good reason (don't try to tell me
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) but I'm amazed that more than one belt driven turntable was ever made. I might look it up if I get bored enough.


----------



## Clayton SF

An Alternative to the SL-1200 CNET Review by  Steve Guttenberg
Pioneer PLX-1000: A DJ turntable an audiophile can love? Pioneer's new super-solid PLX-1000 turntable shakes up the Audiophiliac.
  
 http://www.cnet.com/news/pioneer-plx-1000-a-dj-turntable-an-audiophile-can-love/


----------



## ]eep

> It sells for $699 in the US. The UK price is £599, and in Australia it's AU$849.



In $ it's a nice enough price. but it's the same in €. And that's not the same price... (almost $900, £599 is even more). It's direct competition is fi a Pro-ject RPM 5.1 or 1Xpression Carbon incl. 2M red. Just for comparison from a European perspective... I don't think that will very complicated. 


C-net is really not the best place to get a review of a turntable (or any hifi-equipment) from. This review does not come across as very 'savvy'. Not a word on soundstage perception, detailretrieval or anything that defines a hifi-, let alone, high-end turntable. Al I read him saying is 'tight bass'. Comparing to the SL1200: 'clearer sounding' and in comparison the VPI traveller sounds 'lacklustre'. The other adjectives are reserved for the difference in cartridges. 


> Things are changing, over the last few years direct-drives are picking up admirers among persnickety audiophiles.


 
only to come up with the $30.000 VPI Classic Direct-Drive trying to pitch this DJ cr.... Come on! 

I researched it a bit on this Pioneer (does it take a pioneer to cash out on the vinyl revival with an almost carbon copy of a rival with 'cult-status'?) but all I found were sites for DJ's, musicians and PA-gear. And I am being very understated when I say that the level of knowledge about hifi is minimal when I read the user reviews on those sites. Most of them seem totally oblivious that even there is such a thing as a hifi turntable for home-use. Not even to imagine they might be better suited or even better in general for reproducing a lifelike music experience. 

So, go ahead, convince me. Show me a DD hifi turntable in the same price-bracket. Or twice. Or any affordable price (max $3000)? In production. And by hifi I mean; a heavy steady platter with a detachable arm that is interchangeable/comparable in quality with a Rega, so, tailored for hifi. From an engineering standpoint DD does not provide the best compromise in price/platter stability (3D+rotational)/vinyl interface.


----------



## Skylab

Sadly there are very few DD turntables in production. So what you are asking isn't going to be answerable. However, one can buy quite a number of vintage DD tables that will chew up and spit out every modern entry level (and often several levels up) belt drive turntable currently in production. 

DD has the potential to be much better than belt drive, but DD is not well suited to the current turntable market of small batch production.


----------



## Eee Pee

skylab said:


> vintage DD tables that will chew up and spit out every modern entry level (and often several levels up) belt drive turntable currently in production




Any examples or reference points? That's a fairly broad statement that criticizes quite a lot of turntables.


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## bbophead

]eep said:


> > It sells for $699 in the US. The UK price is £599, and in Australia it's AU$849.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 C-net does not do audiophile reviews in detail, never has.  I'm pretty sure no one has claimed that C-net is the best place to get a review of a turntable.  Steve Guttenberg does have some cred and if you know that, he can be helpful.
  
 What reviewer would you trust to do a comprehensive review, other than yourself?


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## Eee Pee

C Net is a spamming money making advertisement machine.


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## Skylab

eee pee said:


> Any examples or reference points? That's a fairly broad statement that criticizes quite a lot of turntables.




Sure...late 70's/early 80's MOTL DD TTs from Denon, Kenwood, Yamaha, and Pionner easily outperform entry level Pro-Ject, Rega, and Music Hall TTs. I have heard this wth my own ears. The Denon DP-59L I have so smoked the Pro-Ject TT I had prior to it it wasn't even close.


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## bbophead

So, you're saying............?


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## analogsurviver

eee pee said:


> Any examples or reference points? That's a fairly broad statement that criticizes quite a lot of turntables.


 
 It is unfortunate how TTs, but particularly those of big(ger) Japanese manufacturers, who were the only ones capable of anything like large scale production of DDs, were/are infested with teething troubles regarding resonance control - and in this regard they were/are worse than say Rega. Otherwise, they make mincemeat out of it - ANY model.
  
 I did investigate - Technics was FAR from being alone, and far from being singularly the best. Slowly but securely people are getting aware of the quality of good/great vintage DDs. There are names that are sooo under the radar of the general public it is scary - proving that advertisement machine chickensquaking still very much works OK. I guess there has not been any from Japanese manufacturers of turntables for nearly 30 years - when CD started to crush anything in its wake. And it more than shows.
  
 There IS beyond SL1200 in vintage DDs - and it needs not to cost even that much. Question is what you want or how far do you wish to go; staying with stock arm or ...; replacing plinth (which usually was not up to the capabilities of TT; support ( DDs DO NOT like any springy/rocking support -  therefore Isonoe (damn, I remember better the name of a copycat than the original from Germany ...) or similar ). That can but needs not to end up VERY costly - but should result in great sound.
  
 There were tables you can pretty much leave in original condition and they will still kick ass given normal check up and service.
  
 There were tables from Hitachi and Onkyo ( for reasonable money TODAY - truckload of money back then ) that ...
  
 There is an Onkyo that was built in 25 samples that TODAY commands 25K+ price - built like a tank with surgical precision. Thinking that some of the principles and attention to detail, although at lesser scale, did not trickle down to mere mortal models, would be a serious mistake. Even those managed quite a few dB lower rumble figures than pretty much anything outside top 5 TTs ever made - at considerably lesser cost than those super tables. 
  
 Maybe there are others, but lowest price current production DD TT I am awareof  is Brinkmann Bardo - 5K Euro without arm and cartridge.


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## Skylab

Right. The point was simply that DD turntables can be truly excellent, and were for decades. They aren't made today because to make them affordable one needs the benefit of production efficiencies that cannot be had in today's turntable market.


----------



## ]eep

skylab said:


> Sure...late 70's/early 80's MOTL DD TTs from Denon, Kenwood, Yamaha, and Pionner easily outperform entry level Pro-Ject, Rega, and Music Hall TTs. I have heard this wth my own ears. The Denon DP-59L I have so smoked the Pro-Ject TT I had prior to it it wasn't even close.



So *middle* of the line turntables (produced in large production) from the golden era of analog are better than 1 unnamed model rather cheap and cheerful *entry* product from the post-modern crisis ridden era. And to back up this seemingly rather obvious statement (I disagree nevertheless) you bring the Denon DP59L as an example. 

Al I can say is.... :rolleyes:







> There is an Onkyo that was built in 25 samples that TODAY commands 25K+ price - built like a tank with surgical precision. Thinking that some of the principles and attention to detail, although at lesser scale, did not trickle down to mere mortal models, would be a serious mistake. Even those managed quite a few dB lower rumble figures than pretty much anything outside top 5 TTs ever made - at considerably lesser cost than those super tables.



This is not a very exact fact. Nor can you express it in a single dB number. Your statement is merely a certain way to memorize something complex and quite subjective. What are 'rumble figures'? I use a turntable for reproducing music, not mental pictures or figures.  
I find it very hard to imagine anything quieter than a magnetic bearing with a smooth centering. How do you imagine a motor to be quieter than a simple superslick spindle in a thin oil film floating the bearing on air?Just like they use at Clearaudio (their ceramic magnetic bearing). 

Sorry for the German text but the English version was not correct. The 'Luftpolster' (black; air cushion) was missing. When you first place the platter on the bearing it sinks very slowly because the excess pressure has to escape until the magnets are close enough to help lift the platter and maintain equilibrium. There is no actual ball or point in the bearing that rotates under pressure, that which causes rumble. There is no solid to solid physical contact. 
That gives the following measurements:

The red line is made using a testrecord. So, an actual vinyl disc. The blue line is with a testcoupler direct to the platter. The black line is the noise threshold. Notice the 50Hz spike is in the noise threshold, not in the coupler, the 500Hz noise is not present IRL measurement with the test disc. So from from 150Hz down to 50Hz there is hardly anything measured attributable to the TT. From 70-20Hz it is a very even -70dB with a testrecord that as you can see is largely on account of the testrecord itself. 
This is *not* the most expensive TT there is, just a very well engineered one. 

What I have always found to be a good guide, (not the be all and end of all discussions but a guide) are the testlists in (selected) German magazines. Thoroughly German in all aspects: well thought out on a point scale from 1-100, meticulous, consistent and objective (you can say what you want about Germans but they have no sense of humour, especially when it comes to bribery, fi from the industry). And when the products got better and better they kept the same pointscale (so it's not in%) and are now up to 125%. Their way of thinking is simply: "ok, the old reference reached a 100 and this one is clearly better, so we'll give it a 105". As far as I can tell and from what I have heard in shows, for myself, in showrooms, with friends, this has always proved a good and honest guideline. There is a lot that can be said about scores in points (so I do not want to argue this) but American magazines can not be trusted in the same way. They are simply to vulnerable to commercial influences. Nuf said. Ok, I'll give you the numbers. 


_these were already public, I merely cropped them_ They are not recent but from 2007, in vinyl years that's pretty recent.  Spitzenklasse means top class, Oberklasse means upper class and Mittelklasse means middle class. I think you can figure out high-end and Referenz for yourself (they were added in the '90 an '00 as scales went up).
Now to the meat: it is very convenient and easy to see what it would cost to go up one step on the ladder and which are the better value. This does not mean that others are to expensive because they can offer better aesthetics or offer more functionality. This list puts most weight on pure soundquality. I take it you can interpret the numbers for yourself. 

I did not consult this list as standard before I make a purchase (this century) although I still take a casual sneak peek once in a while. But the things I (did) own can be considered as rather sensible buys and always caused me parting pains when selling (Linn Axis, Pro-Ject Perspective and Clearaudio Performance SE).
Look up the Technics 1210 models and the one above (the one below is too scary and one step down), then look at the prices. I rest my case.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> So *middle* of the line turntables (produced in large production) from the golden era of analog are better than 1 unnamed model rather cheap and cheerful *entry* product from the post-modern crisis ridden era. And to back up this seemingly rather obvious statement (I disagree nevertheless) you bring the Denon DP59L as an example.
> 
> Al I can say is....
> 
> ...


 
 On purpose I did not go to models or specs or measurements of those vintage DD TTs - because they are already RARE and any more info floating around would simply drive the prices of only sporadically available units up and up.
  
 That over-the-top Onkyo is http://www.thevintageknob.org/onkyo-PX-100M.html It is no coincidence that one of the few known to be in Europe is personal table of Mr. Schroeder, the known tonearm manufacturer.
  
  I certainly agree that single digit number for rumble measurement is completely meaningless - I DO posess Thorens Rumperlmesskoppler , use it to LISTEN to TTs, but lack equipment to produce graphs etc. 
  
 Present day TTs are already more or less made well to the point that they leave not much room for the improvement.  Invariably (with very few exceptions ) they are belt drive that has limited and finite accuracy - and can not be improved upon. A really good vintage DD TT already has an extremely accurate drive - but rings like a collection of bells due to the then (and today...) far insufficient care taken in making the turntable acoustically as quiet as possible. Bottom line - it is possible to modify vintage TT to be (nearly) as acoustically quiet as modern counterparts, but it is not possible to achieve the same precision of drive using belt drive as compared to really good DD TTs.
  
 Again, it is left to the reader to find out what those desirable TTs are - due to the above reasons. I stupidly missed on one this summer, thinking they are turning up for sale like on the conveyor belt :


----------



## ]eep

So we are in fact talking about something that was not, is not and can never be. More or less a utopian turntable. I still don't agree with "belt drive that has limited and finite accuracy" As Socrates said: it is not the wood that builds the boat (meaning: it's the skill, experience ideas and information of the workers). And as I explained quite verbose: here is not a lot of force necessary to keep the platter spinning. It doesn't really matter how you apply the force as long as you got plenty of inertia+rotational energy to even out any fluctuations. Did you ever notice the day getting shorter or longer when walking west or east? The day stays exactly 24 hours. It is like a gyroscope or a flywheel. Once it is spinning it takes a LOT of energy to get it to slow down or alter direction because of the energy stored in the angular momentum. 
That Onkyo looks like a serious piece of engineering, but it looks nothing like the average DD-TT. 

Hmm, looks like someone missed the chance to buy the 'Madonna with the missing boobies' 

Edit: 
So I looked up the Brinkman Bardo. I know Brinkman is highly regarded but a bit out of my league (yet?). Thank you AS because the review I found by Michael Fremer (the one we all know and love :rolleyes: ) on AnalogPlanet prooves exactly my point. Plus it gave some more pointers I wasn't aware of. While I was reading it I was going "yes, that's it. That's right. Just tell 'em."


> I won't debate here how to make a turntable's platter go around. Choose your favorite: belt vs direct drive, idler wheel vs belt, spring-windup vs wind power, whatever. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing to debate. Each of these technologies has its pluses and minuses, but none can produce CD's accuracy of speed and inherent freedom from wow and flutter.
> 
> Despite that, you'll never convince me that CDs produce music that sounds better or more lifelike than LPs, or that CDs even come close to communicating music's ability to evoke emotions from listeners, or the sensation that you've been transported to the concert hall, or that the musicians are in your room performing for you. They just don't.



That's what I've been saying for 30 years, and still I got sucked in the cd-vortex losing touch with hifi for over a decade...


> *A Non–Disco-Friendly Direct Drive*
> The Bardo and Oasis share the same neat, efficient direct-drive motor, designed and manufactured by Brinkmann.... [technical desription]...
> 
> Though Thorens is credited with developing the earliest direct-drive turntables decades ago, _modern direct-drive technology took into account the quick-start, quick-stop needs of radio stations and DJs._ Thus, motors were high-torque, platters light.
> ...



So there it is: the "quartz drive" PLL makes sure you get incredibly good measurements that the marketing department can use to it's benefit. But what they *don't* tell you is the introduction of that jitter that is even worse. That is just like with tube-amps and transistor-amps. They are still repeating the "high harmonic distortion" pitch while no-one realizes that the transient-inter modulation distortion is many times more aggravating even in lower %. HD is all around in nature but TIM is typical for electronic reproduction.



> In designing his direct-drive system, _Helmut Brinkmann chose to flip the direct-drive paradigm_ [high torque-low weight] and go with a 22-lb, "resonance-optimized," aluminum-alloy platter and a relatively low-torque motor that takes about 12 seconds to get the platter up to 33.33rpm. Brinkmann claims that, *once set in motion, the massive platter requires but a small electronic "nudge" to maintain accurate speed*; thereafter, the ultra-low-friction bearing requires very little energy to maintain correct speed. Brinkmann also claims that the heavy platter and the close-proximity coil array's overlapping magnetic fields help minimize cogging effects. The geometry of the coil array, he says, was arrived at *through listening*.



So there you go. That's just what I meant. It is not the wood that builds the ship. It is not the drive-method that makes the turntable. It is how you implement the technique, and listen to the result. And how the engineer uses his instincts and skill.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> So we are in fact talking about something that was not, is not and can never be. More or less a utopian turntable. I still don't agree with "belt drive that has limited and finite accuracy" As Socrates said: it is not the wood that builds the boat (meaning: it's the skill, experience ideas and information of the workers). And as I explained quite verbose: here is not a lot of force necessary to keep the platter spinning. It doesn't really matter how you apply the force as long as you got plenty of inertia+rotational energy to even out any fluctuations. Did you ever notice the day getting shorter or longer when walking west or east? The day stays exactly 24 hours. It is like a gyroscope or a flywheel. Once it is spinning it takes a LOT of energy to get it to slow down or alter direction because of the energy stored in the angular momentum.
> That Onkyo looks like a serious piece of engineering, but it looks nothing like the average DD-TT.
> 
> Hmm, looks like someone missed the chance to buy the 'Madonna with the missing boobies'
> ...


 
 "Fallen Madonna with the _*missing *_boobies" - did you file for copyright on it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ; if you don't do it, somebody else WILL !
  
 Thank you for the great write-up - spared me quite some typing regarding the contras of direct drive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. All what you posted does hold water.
  
 BUT ....
  
 Why - on earth - do you think I have posted the big Onkyo ? There are descriptions of it online...
  
 And please do look up perhaps the most cunning DD of them all, besides being by many thought of as (too) pretty face to be taken serious - Bang & Olufsen;
 these guys did the Minimundus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimundus version of the big Onkyo  http://beocentral.com/beogram8000; principle being the same, direct "linear" induction in the platter (OK, "cheapo" ( a word one does not associate with ANY B&O product, but here in this context the only to me known exception confirming the rule ) B & O used copper disc and not the behemoth one piece copper platter as Onkyo ... ), NO cogging whatsoever 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... - just look at your electricity meter - EXACTLY the same principle !
  
 B&O produced some of the best MM (strictly speaking Moving Micro Cross ) cartridges ever - put the 2 and 2 together ... - the reason it is not better known or appreciated is the high cost that turned many most off prior taking the B&O into anything like serious consideration . Mea culpa - among pretty much everybody else.
  
 There is one EXTRA ace up my sleeve regarding turntable speed problems - applicable to belt, direct, sun wind, nano miniaturized Chinese, ....., - you name it - drive. When the time comes, it WILL get used - but please no questions, all would remain answered by : No comment.
  
 But I certainly agree it is more important how well any given concept is executed than the concept in itself. There are tables that suck royally - in any drive category !
 One certainly could not completely exclude stock SL1200 from this category; but it can be improved into stratosphere - at a cost.
  
 And yes, if you go waaay back to my Sleeping Beauty posts ( horror of horrors - DIRECT drive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) - you will find I DID state that the absence of quartz regulation on this (and VERY few other Technics DDs) DOES provide for better sonics than the vast majority quartz controlled ones that get corrected far too much and in far too  swift succession - producing "jitter" as you put it.  Believe it or not - Direct Drive enthusiasts use ears to evaluate TTs -  too...
  
 It is not only the medicine - but more HOW it is applied 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 
  
 PS: TIM optimized/free amps are in no way to be found in HSD ( Hollow State Device ) electronics only; it is just that in their nature they are less prone to TIM, but once the mechanisms of TIM were known, there were applications, primarily by Matti Otala in mid 70s - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrocompaniet and http://www.electrocompaniet.no/files/reviews/2012_jan_Hifi-news_Vintage_EC.pdf - followed by Otala designed models from Revox and other more mainstream manufacturers. No way on earth a HSD amp can be faster than the first Electrocompaniet - therefore, it can not have better TIM; if both are correctly designed, should both be TIM free.


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## yeahx

I was worried about starting an argument about DD and then someone else did it anyways. Then I got a belt for my JVC so Im now okay with the existence of belt driven TT.  Now I have a rough 3100 that might only need a new needle. Do worn needles just skate across no matter what?


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## analogsurviver

yeahx said:


> I was worried about starting an argument about DD and then someone else did it anyways. Then I got a belt for my JVC so Im now okay with the existence of belt driven TT.  Now I have a rough 3100 that might only need a new needle. Do worn needles just skate across no matter what?


 
 No, they don't - but it is not uncommon for a bonded diamond to fell off, with its nude mounted counterpart doing the same being extremely rare - but does happen.
 And then you get skaaaaaaaate ....
  
 3100 is ...? Audio Technica AT-3100 ?


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## yeahx

Oops I put the wrong number. It's a Technics SL-1300. I only played with the settings for a few minutes and kept doing that. It's been sitting in a garage for probably 25+ years and Im wondering if it would be worth it get a cheap cartridge for it. I can see a tiny nub where the stylus should be.


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## analogsurviver

yeahx said:


> Oops I put the wrong number. It's a Technics SL-1300. I only played with the settings for a few minutes and kept doing that. It's been sitting in a garage for probably 25+ years and Im wondering if it would be worth it get a cheap cartridge for it. I can see a tiny nub where the stylus should be.


 
 If the SL-1300 is OK ( tonearm bearings - no free play, no excessive friction, main bearing without noise, holds speed OK ) - it deserves better than just cheap cartridge. 
 If you are willing to try your luck, this http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIGITRAC-280-E-Phono-cartridge-/231409690453?pt=US_Record_Players_Home_Turntables&hash=item35e117a755 looks promising ( stylus wear ? ) - but it is Ortofon OMP 20 in disguise (check how much "20" costs... ). add an T4P adaptor at around $10 -and you will hopefully end with both cheap and good. Only 2 hours or so left.


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## grokit

As far as the availability of excellent DD tables, look no further than KAB's refurbished/upgraded SL1200 selection, they've done all the hard work for you. I have most of their upgrades on a used SL1200MKII I picked up and sent to them but this is one-stop shopping. I'm very pleased with the quality of their work, and the cost-effectiveness of their upgrades. That new Pioneer does look pretty cool tho.
  

 KAB's custom PS is top-notch.


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## yeahx

analogsurviver said:


> If the SL-1300 is OK ( tonearm bearings - no free play, no excessive friction, main bearing without noise, holds speed OK ) - it deserves better than just cheap cartridge.
> If you are willing to try your luck, this http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIGITRAC-280-E-Phono-cartridge-/231409690453?pt=US_Record_Players_Home_Turntables&hash=item35e117a755 looks promising ( stylus wear ? ) - but it is Ortofon OMP 20 in disguise (check how much "20" costs... ). add an T4P adaptor at around $10 -and you will hopefully end with both cheap and good. Only 2 hours or so left.


 
 That is about the price I meant by cheap but Im going to have to put it off for a while. I was just wondering if it was worth planning for later. For now I have this JVC that functions with some old stereo equipment and a few thrift store records. So Im in no hurry. Id like to pick up some more tunes to play on it before I try to fix it up. Thanks for that info. Maybe I should ask again later when Im ready.


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## analogsurviver

yeahx said:


> That is about the price I meant by cheap but Im going to have to put it off for a while. I was just wondering if it was worth planning for later. For now I have this JVC that functions with some old stereo equipment and a few thrift store records. So Im in no hurry. Id like to pick up some more tunes to play on it before I try to fix it up. Thanks for that info. Maybe I should ask again later when Im ready.


 
 Cheap-time-shifting ; shuffled according to your preference 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 - but ebay etc  are very rarely sympathetic with the contents of our wallets; do look up the other NOS Digitrac ( a model below in the line )  to get the idea ...


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## analogsurviver

Just in case someone has "small change" necessary :
  

  
 http://www.thevintageknob.org/denon-DP-100.html
  
 http://www.thevintageknob.org/denon-DP-100M.html
  
 http://www.ebay.de/itm/DENON-DP-100-M-BEST-DIRECT-DRIVE-EVER-BUILT-VERY-RARE-/171561790780?pt=Plattenspieler&hash=item27f1e12d3c
  
 No matter how we might argue, fingers of one hand are more than enough to position this TT for one of the best ever made. Some lucky guy will have a special christmas this year...


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## Skylab

I've always wanted one of those, although I know I will never own one.


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## yeahx

Nah this is way better! I got it back out and messed with the stylus and got it to sort of play without skating and then messed with it some more and broke off whatever was left right after I took this.
  

  
 Taken to show what a beauty it is.  Well it seems to go. Auto tries to touch down just off the edge of the record but Im guessing that will be a simple adjustment to figure out when I get a new cartridge on it. Now I regret not picking up a 1301 I saw the other day at the thrift store. Half off would have made it $25 that I didn't have but it looked way better than this and had a nice (to me) head shell. I found it hard to believe when I looked it up that it was from 78. Didn't plug it in but all I could tell was wrong with it from a quick inspection was that the 45 rpm button stuck down due to the old plastic around it. Would that be as simple as taking it apart and filing the plastic down or taking it out? I guess Id be better off using the money to get this 1300 working as ugly as it is it was free.


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## analogsurviver

skylab said:


> I've always wanted one of those, although I know I will never own one.


 
 Checking in 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


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## analogsurviver

yeahx said:


> Nah this is way better! I got it back out and messed with the stylus and got it to sort of play without skating and then messed with it some more and broke off whatever was left right after I took this.
> 
> 
> 
> Taken to show what a beauty it is.  Well it seems to go. Auto tries to touch down just off the edge of the record but Im guessing that will be a simple adjustment to figure out when I get a new cartridge on it. Now I regret not picking up a 1301 I saw the other day at the thrift store. Half off would have made it $25 that I didn't have but it looked way better than this and had a nice (to me) head shell. I found it hard to believe when I looked it up that it was from 78. Didn't plug it in but all I could tell was wrong with it from a quick inspection was that the 45 rpm button stuck down due to the old plastic around it. Would that be as simple as taking it apart and filing the plastic down or taking it out? I guess Id be better off using the money to get this 1300 working as ugly as it is it was free.


 
 I would download required service manual(s) http://www.vinylengine.com/library/technics/sl-1300.shtml
 and strip it down, clean and relubricate/reassemble it - but if you can solder, replace ageing electrolytic capacitors as well. Now if it really is as murky as this picture, which I doubt, you could decide to refinish the surface - first by sanding it to nice scratch free surface, then some primer and then some eXclusive colour -
 but the lettering, at least of the quality approaching the new mint from factory, would be tough.
  
 Good luck !


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## ]eep

Now you know exactly why I say that old 'tables are not worth your while, unless you find a really good one. They are are simply too complex. Just look at the inside/bottom. All sorts of wires, levers, cogs, pins, rubber belts and intricate mechanics (that resonate). There are all sorts of things that succumb to the laws of thermodynamics. All falls into decay. And if one little part can stop the thing from working you need to know what to do, get the energy and time to do it, the funds and step up and take action. The upkeep will be your downfall every time. 

The same caveat goes for the Denon DP-100M. As great as it is, with a turntable you always buy a _potential_ for great sound. But there are so many things that can rob you of the last few % of that potential. And with the laws of diminishing returns that is a big risk. If it's not working properly, or if it's not set up properly, you will only get €1k worth of your €16k investment. Or when 1 little essential part is broken you get 0%, until you have it repaired. It is for most people (99.99998%) a safer bet to buy a new €10.000 turntable and have it set up by the dealer. 
As an investment it is probably wiser to invest in some really good casks of whisky or bottles of 30Y old. Or invest in mint vintage vinyl. They can be really expensive, and fun to play. Like the ones I received yesterday. They are not 1st ed, and the Swan Lake is slightly worn (on loud passages, it's very dynamic) but you will be surprised at how expensive mint 1ed are. Prices are in hundreds of dollars.


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## yeahx

Well I will just look at it as a little side project and not expect anything near perfect but just have fun along the way. Simple little things like replacing the RCA with a $2 Monster from the thrift store and a good cleaning and oiling to start. Then maybe replace some parts if it seems worth doing. Could turn out better than anything I could afford new and since its unlikely I will have great equipment to pair it with, no big deal. I might get a new record on Amazon every once in a while in the meantime but mostly going to stick to a local used store and thrift stores. Thanks for the manual links analogsurvivor. Maybe later I will have a better pic to post. Of course if I see something better I might scrap the idea of restoring this one. Im going to go see if that 1301 is still there and if its on sale and think about if its worth $25


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## analogsurviver

Well, today I really feel like s**t - as I was browsing the net , found yet another "collateral damage # XYZ" as I call things found that are related to what I have been searching for in the first place.
  

  
                                            Ernst Benz
  
  
 passed away on 5th July 2014 at the age of 82 : http://www.analogplanet.com/content/ernst-benz-rip
  
  
 I am truly sad I had to learn about it this way - while searching for a close-up picture of the Benz Micro Switzerland latest Micro Ridge stylus, this to me yet unfamiliar photo of my short-lived boss popped out. 
  
 I have been searching lately for him, even after the fateful day, yet even his latest watch making company
 http://ernstbenz.com/about-us 
 did not utter a word about the sad fact that devastated me today. 
  
 Much of what I have written in these pages and much of what is yet to follow stems from what I have learned from this extraordinary man. He is behind more analog vinyl replay systems than I am aware of - let's put it this way, he really was the major player behind it all. Everything that had to do with the manufacturing of diamond, sapphire, ruby, etc - had he accepted the extremely lucrative sum of money from one unnamed phono cartridge manufacturer in exchange for his know-how, he could have retired long before we came in contact in 1986 - and I have no doubts that offer has not been alone. Yet, he chose to soldier on on his own while pushing the bar ever higher - until he did not pass the torch to his co-worker and good friend, Mr. Albert Lukaschek, who is at the helm of Benz Micro Switzerland ever since. As noted above, Mr. Ernst Benz continued pursuing his dream and passion of flying and chronometers primarily for aviation in his new company. He has been oscillating between his native Switzerland ( mostly during summer ) and Florida ( during winter ) in the last decade.
  
 After I regain some composure, I will try to put up some photo of him from around the 1990, how the Empire Scientific in Neuhausen am Rheifall at Rheingoldstrasse 50 facility looked like in those days, etc.
  
 Rest in peace, Ernst.


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## longbowbbs

Here is a fun video...


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## Skylab

analogsurviver said:


> Well, today I really feel like s**t - as I was browsing the net , found yet another "collateral damage # XYZ" as I call things found that are related to what I have been searching for in the first place.
> 
> Ernst Benz passed away on 5th July 2014 at the age of 82 : http://www.analogplanet.com/content/ernst-benz-rip
> 
> ...




So sorry to read this. I didn't inow. Benz cartridges have long been my favorite. His work enriched my life, for sure.


----------



## parbaked

analogsurviver said:


> Rest in peace, Ernst.


 
 Sad...


----------



## ]eep

That's very unfortunate, but this wasn't bad. A good age and with all his family around him. But that is why I say that you better visit old people while they are still alive, there is still so much you can learn from them. They have so much experience. In out society centered on marketing where everyone is young and attractive we tend to forget that all that is so superficial. That is not what makes people interesting. I am volunteering in a house for the elderly so I know. The lack of attention and respect sometimes disturbs me.


----------



## fullnine

]eep said:


> In $ it's a nice enough price. but it's the same in €. And that's not the same price... (almost $900, £599 is even more). It's direct competition is fi a Pro-ject RPM 5.1 or 1Xpression Carbon incl. 2M red. Just for comparison from a European perspective... I don't think that will very complicated.
> 
> 
> C-net is really not the best place to get a review of a turntable (or any hifi-equipment) from. This review does not come across as very 'savvy'. Not a word on soundstage perception, detailretrieval or anything that defines a hifi-, let alone, high-end turntable. Al I read him saying is 'tight bass'. Comparing to the SL1200: 'clearer sounding' and in comparison the VPI traveller sounds 'lacklustre'.




The author of that article is Steve Guttenberg and he's been around the audio block a few times, and has been writing about audio for at least 15 years. He's written articles regarding high end audio for multiple publications and websites including Listener, Stereophile, Inner Fidelity, Sound and Vision and others. He's familiar with high end analog.

As far as the article not being very saavy and the lack of audiophile lingo, it's a freaking DJ turntable! His article is not intended to review the TT for audiophiles. I can't imagine most DJ's or youngsters who might be interested in the Pioneer would give a flying frig about "soundstage perception"

It may not have been your intention, but your post comes across as pompous.


----------



## bbophead

fullnine said:


> It may not have been your intention, but your post comes across as pompous.


 
 +1.


----------



## ]eep

I am not being pompous but I am running tired of again and again explaining why DJ TT's are not the same as hifi TT's and why they should be treated as such. Furthermore you are sort of calling the kettle black because I did read the article and I am aware of his credentials, but in the same article I do remember him saying that he does not know anything about turntables and he had to bring in a friend to help him.


----------



## parbaked

]eep said:


> I am not being pompous but I am running tired of again and again explaining why DJ TT's are not the same as hifi TT's and why they should be treated as such.


 
 Then please stop because we are all tired of you repeating your opinion.
 You are negatively judging something that many are fond of and it is tiring.
 It gets in the way of sharing mutual affection for turntables.


----------



## fullnine

]eep said:


> I am not being pompous but I am running tired of again and again explaining why DJ TT's are not the same as hifi TT's and why they should be treated as such. Furthermore you are sort of calling the kettle black because I did read the article and I am aware of his credentials, but in the same article I do remember him saying that he does not know anything about turntables and he had to bring in a friend to help him.




Reading comprehension problems?

Maybe you should re-read the article because not once does the author mention that "he does not know anything about turntables" and the friends that he had "help" him simply brought over a couple of different cartridges mounted to headshells and the classic Technics DJ deck, so that they could experiment with different carts and compare it to the DJ reference.

Mr. Gutenberg had a Linn LP-12 for years along with a VDH Frog cartridge. I believe he now uses one of the VPI Classic models. Hardly the equipment of a guy who knows nothing about turntables. I don't really believe that you were aware of the authors credentials and now you are just back-pedaling instead of admitting (like any grown man would) that you were mistaken.

Another quote from the article... "Most audiophiles never got on-board with direct-drive turntables, which is why the vast majority of high-end turntables are belt-drive designs." It seems the author predicted your reaction perfectly.


----------



## Amictus

Guys! Lighten up!


----------



## penmarker

On the contrary, please don't lighten up. I need entertainment for my boring sunday.


----------



## Clayton SF

penmarker said:


> On the contrary, please don't lighten up. I need entertainment for my boring sunday.


 

 +1
  
 You light up my life and the strobe on my turntable


----------



## CrazyRay




----------



## ]eep

I don't have any problems reading or comprehending. Fullnine is quoting me from weeks ago. So wow. You must feel really well right now for catching me on something I don't quite remember from way back. Kudos. 

And again, you try writing in Dutch, or German or French and wait for the reaction how you come across... I am trying very hard on my language, in a foreign language, and you manage to read what I don't intend. Again, very nice.

On the other hand, reading my own comment weeks later let's me read it from a distance and now I see what you mean. Using the word "savvy" isn't very fortunate here and it does set a trend. That was not my intention. I was primarily thinking about using the right words, spelling, grammar and after all that try to think what I am trying to say. When I compare my own writing to the British magazines I normally read I do feel very inept. But said C-net review does come across as very casual. So casual that it has hardly any substance. So mayby the way I say it leaves room for improvement, but that doesn't change quality of the review(s on C-net).




fullnine said:


> The author of that article is Steve Guttenberg and he's been around the audio block a few times, and has been writing about audio for at least 15 years. He's written articles regarding high end audio for multiple publications and websites including Listener, Stereophile, Inner Fidelity, Sound and Vision and others. He's familiar with high end analog.
> 
> As far as the article not being very saavy and the lack of audiophile lingo, it's a freaking DJ turntable! His article is not intended to review the TT for audiophiles. I can't imagine most DJ's or youngsters who might be interested in the Pioneer would give a flying frig about "soundstage perception"
> 
> It may not have been your intention, but your post comes across as pompous.



I did read it again. If he has been writing for 15 years (freelance writer for Home Theater, Inner Fidelity, Tone Audio, and Stereophile) and manages to come up with something  like this really makes me wonder. "Pioneer's new super-solid PLX-1000 turntable shakes up the Audiophiliac." I suppose I'm no 'audiophiliac' because his review doesn't move me at all.


----------



## bbophead

Poor jeep.


----------



## parbaked

crazyray said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


 
 I come here to see pics of your sweet music room!!


----------



## Eee Pee

]eep said:


> And again, you try writing in Dutch, or German or French and wait for the reaction how you come across... I am trying very hard on my language, in a foreign language, and you manage to read what I don't intend. Again, very nice.


 
  
 ]eep, you've had this happen to you before.  I understand it.  Personally, I'm impressed with your ability to write in English.  I cannot speak any other language and I imagine it's tough.  Sometimes though, there's no need to speak up.  Broken record... (punchline)
  
 Here's my current rig.  Cheers, mates.
  

  
 Grado Sonats - VPI Travels - Schiit Mani - Schiit Mjolnir - Senn 650


----------



## bbophead

Nice!  Clean and neat.  Bet it sounds excellent.


----------



## Shaffer

parbaked said:


> I come here to see pics of your sweet music room!!




Sure, let's see it!


----------



## Eee Pee

bbophead said:


> Nice!  Clean and neat.  Bet it sounds excellent.





  
  
 Word.  Yeah, it's got this pretty straight forward approach in sound presentation, which I attribute to the phono and headphone amp. Then there's the 650 sound.  Then there's the Grado Sonata sound.  It seems to work, or blend well together enough that I like it without even having to try.  Leads to long listens.


----------



## yeahx

I'd be ok with something like that I think.  Anybody enter the Foo Fighters McIntosh giveaway?


----------



## fullnine

]eep said:


> I don't have any problems reading or comprehending. Fullnine is quoting me from weeks ago. So wow. You must feel really well right now for catching me on something I don't quite remember from way back. Kudos.
> 
> And again, you try writing in Dutch, or German or French and wait for the reaction how you come across... I am trying very hard on my language, in a foreign language, and you manage to read what I don't intend. Again, very nice.
> 
> ...




Lame excuses and more back pedaling. Enjoy the holidays.


----------



## Clayton SF

> <snipzilla>
> 
> And again, you try writing in Dutch, or German or French and wait for the reaction how you come across... I am trying very hard on my language, in a foreign language, and you manage to read what I don't intend. Again, very nice.
> 
> <clip-a-roo>


 
  
 My adoration for, and the allure and appreciation of music will transcend any language and any turntable. (Okay, almost any ....)


----------



## CrazyRay

shaffer said:


> Sure, let's see it!


 

 Here you go guys!


----------



## Eee Pee

Totally crazy, Ray.  Awesome.


----------



## Androb

Impressive!


----------



## penmarker

Wow, I have to sit down for a while.
  
 *I'm already sitting down*
  
 I am not a smart man.


----------



## CrazyRay

penmarker said:


> Wow, I have to sit down for a while.
> 
> *I'm already sitting down*
> 
> I am not a smart man.


----------



## fullnine

Ray that looks like man-cave heaven! Really dig the whole thing. I'm jelly.


----------



## analogsurviver

crazyray said:


>


 
 New addition ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Sweet !
  
  I do not remember (or have forgotten ? ) the Bang & Olufsen table - which model, which cart ? Anything else changed ?


----------



## CrazyRay

Hi analogsurviver, I always had the Bang & Olufsen (it is an RX2 with MMC4 cartridge).
 It is on the bottom shelf, kinda hidden, that is why you probably do not remember it.


----------



## analogsurviver

crazyray said:


> Hi analogsurviver, I always had the Bang & Olufsen (it is a RX2 with MMC4 cartridge).
> It is on the bottom shelf, kinda hidden, that is why you probably do not remember it.


 
 Mea culpa... forgot this one, bottom or top shelf... How does it sound in comparison to the other tables ? I am *familiar* with Empire - but not with V15IV, familiar with SME & Carnegie One - but NOT together - and familiar with "upside-down Transcriptors" ( Gyrodec) only from the pictures. 
  
 But that _*chair ...*_ - forgot how it is called or who designed it - did not forget I am jealous about it  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## CrazyRay

Hi analogsurviver, I love the sound of all of my tables, the empire is strictly used for headphones (beautiful deck — lots of punch on the bass and lovely highs).
  
 I use the Bang & Olufsen for records that sound too bright on the GyroDec, the Bang & Olufsen lessens the brightness and smooths out the highs beautifully.
 The GyroDec is a delight with jazz and on the better recorded rock music. 
  
 The chair is an Eames Lounge Chair (designed by Charles and Ray Eames for the Herman Miller furniture company) in 1956.


----------



## zorin

fullnine said:


> Lame excuses and more back pedaling. Enjoy the holidays.


 
 Can we see a photo of your police badge or police I.D. ?


----------



## analogsurviver

@CrazyRay - thank you for the answers !


----------



## ]eep

I do know that chair. The real deal is a lot more expensive than most people spend on their stereo+tv. I was thinking about a reproduction, but I don't have the room for it. But I'm sitting on an EA-219 behind my desk atm. White+alu. A reproduction... 

I can remember the view is equally stunning. High above the landscape.


----------



## msiklvr

Interesting thread.  Nice pictures and exceptionally informative discussions. 
  
 When I'm able to post pictures I'll submit a couple of pics of my heavily modified (by someone else) Mapleknoll Apollo, which I sold prior to moving to the other continent.  Too large and heavy to transport to Europe.   Starting over now that I'm settled and looking for something in the 4k euro range.  Seems like there are a lot of choices but all seem to need a chain of upgrades to bring them to best performance. 
  
 The Transrotor Fat Bob looks like it might fit the bill.  Transrotor doesn't seem to be a popular choice among the members of this forum.  Is there something significant which brings it into disfavor?  Any suggestions of a starting point would be appreciated.


----------



## CrazyRay

]eep said:


> I do know that chair. The real deal is a lot more expensive than most people spend on their stereo+tv. I was thinking about a reproduction.


 

 Please save your money and buy an original.
 Over the years I have bought a couple of reproduction chairs and couches.
 All of the reproductions failed after a couple of years (torn seams, thin leather that ripped), I ended up throwing them out, wasting my money.

 I finally gave up and bought the real thing, and I have not been happier.
 It is a true pleasure sitting in an original Eames lounge chair, Marcel Breuer Wassily Chair, Gerrit Retveld Zigzag stoel and an Le Corbusier Sofa.

 It took me many years to save up to buy the original furniture and it was well worth the wait.
 One original piece of furniture is worth more than 5 copies.


----------



## Funambulistic

I agree. I am an interior designer and lusted after the Eames for years. Several of my friends have received them as gifts or were lucky enough to happen upon them at severely discounted prices. I've seen several knock-offs on Ebay but cannot bring myself to purchase one...


----------



## ]eep

I know and I agree taht the original is better and keeps it value etc. But €8000 for a chair is really a lot of money. And a reproduction is not the same as a cheap copy or knockoff. Prices and quality vary greatly. And the design is around 60 years old! 

Last month I saw a cunsumer education programme about 'what does a couch cost?' They took an Ikea Klippan apart and looked what was inside. They added all the (wholesale)prices of the parts. They bought an expensive designercouch and did the same. The materials were slightly better and the construction was just a bit better and different. The materials cost €350 for the Ikea and €450 for the designercouch. But the Klippan costs only €169 where the designercouch costs €3000. They asked the (retired) designer of the Klippan about the difference. Why can Ikea sell so cheap? He said: "they are good at acquisition". And about the designercouch he said he does not believe that good furnature needs to be expensive. Part of the price is in the exclusivity of the design (designing takes time) and in the low quantities. When asked about the great difference he just asked with a big smile:"well, what do you think?" The famous Dutch designer of the expensive designcouch did not want to appear on tv and had no comment (which says a lot because he is on tv very, very often). I guess the same goes for audio as well. Many sellers are quite opaque about how their prices are built up. 



> Transrotor doesn't seem to be a popular choice among the members of this forum. Is there something significant which brings it into disfavor?



I think price has a lot to do with that, plus it is German and heavy, and this is an mainly American forum. That makes the price even higher and it doesn't help price/performance ratio for most visitors. Personaly I find them not very 'sexy'. But that's just my opinion (de gustibus non est disputandum).


----------



## analogsurviver

msiklvr said:


> Interesting thread.  Nice pictures and exceptionally informative discussions.
> 
> When I'm able to post pictures I'll submit a couple of pics of my heavily modified (by someone else) Mapleknoll Apollo, which I sold prior to moving to the other continent.  Too large and heavy to transport to Europe.   Starting over now that I'm settled and looking for something in the 4k euro range.  Seems like there are a lot of choices but all seem to need a chain of upgrades to bring them to best performance.
> 
> The Transrotor Fat Bob looks like it might fit the bill.  Transrotor doesn't seem to be a popular choice among the members of this forum.  Is there something significant which brings it into disfavor?  Any suggestions of a starting point would be appreciated.


 
 First, welcome to the head-fi - and sorry for your wallet.
  
 I think you pretty much answered your own question. You had one of the best TTs, even modified - and still you sold it prior moving to other continent. Neither Mapleknoll Apollo (being from Europe, never seen one of those in flesh, for the same reason ) nor Fat Bob are shipping friendly due to weight when packed properly not to sustain shipping damage.
  
 Transrotor is something of an oddball - save for the paperweight category like The Funk Firm, they have produced a belt driven turntable in any form known to the mankind. Enough to give you an idea of diversity is to search for Transrotor on ebay.de. They started with selling Mitchell TTs from England ( Michell Reference Hydraulic = Transrotor AC ) - after it was found that production under licence in Germany would cost more.
 They also sell Rega , SME and Jelco (sometimes modified ) rebadged arms and Goldring rebadged cartridges.
  
 Currently they are making their own designs - including Fat Bob. Now it is "around the corner" for you, the best thing to do is to get a demo and listen to it  for yourself.


----------



## msiklvr

Hi Analogsurviver,
 Thanks for the video and words of wisdom.
  
 The Apollo was a highly modified Lloyd Walker prototype.  The system behind it was of a similar caliber.  When I left the US, I had been a bachelor with no constraints on esthetics or space.  The Apollo is a brute of a plinth.  When I moved to France, in the city, as a married man, esthetics, harmony and space played a larger roll in my hifi decisions!  My beautiful system in the US became a hulking monster in France.  So, it all went to another home before I moved.  We have since moved from the cramped house in the city to a larger space in the country, but the criteria remains concerning harmony and esthetics.  We must both find it acceptable.  The TT cannot dominate the room. 
  
 I've rebuilt my system. While not at the same level as that in the US, it serves adequately for the existing constraints (Luxman 507u, KEF 201/2, Meitner Ma-1, Squeezebox Touch).  This is my Flac based system.  While it would be wonderful to approach the levels of fidelity of the Apollo, I would be happy to find a TT which gives speed stability and provides a platform from which relatively flat frequency response can be extracted with the right tonearm and cartridge.  At the moment I have an ET-2 linear tracker and a Carnegie One cartridge.  This is a starting point, though not the end. I have a library of around 3k lps so a TT is a must.
  
 Anyway, this is just background to give you all an idea of what works for me at the moment.
  
 Finding a listening room around the Ardennes of France is a bit of a challenge.  I do accept your comment, one must listen to make a decision.  Most likely the purchasing decision will be based on luck and price with a vendor from somewhere in Germany or GB.  I think your comment of transport is well founded.  A trip to the source will be required.
  
 From this forum and others Clear Audio, Townshend, Transrotor, and Rega seem to be the major contenders, with VPI, Bergmann, and others a higher priced alternative.  I'm ok with used
  
 As for the wallet, well, this is not the hobby to be concerned with price.  The pleasure of music without distractions from artifacts is worth whatever is costs and is ultimately the determination of price.
  
 Regards,
  Ron


----------



## msiklvr

One more question to the forum.  I've read the comments on this forum and others concerning high mass vs suspension systems.  Most seem to address the environment, choosing high mass for stable environment and suspension for active environment (e.g wood floors).  Other factors play into this such as interaction from speakers.  What are your thoughts concerning a stable environment, (cement floor and tile) in the same plane as speakers.  If adequately anchored via the stand, but in proximity with the speakers (1 meter from the speaker), is a high mass system sufficiently immune from airborne resonance?  Is a suspension system superior in this instance?


----------



## analogsurviver

msiklvr said:


> Hi Analogsurviver,
> Thanks for the video and words of wisdom.
> 
> The Apollo was a highly modified Lloyd Walker prototype.  The system behind it was of a similar caliber.  When I left the US, I had been a bachelor with no constraints on esthetics or space.  The Apollo is a brute of a plinth.  When I moved to France, in the city, as a married man, esthetics, harmony and space played a larger roll in my hifi decisions!  My beautiful system in the US became a hulking monster in France.  So, it all went to another home before I moved.  We have since moved from the cramped house in the city to a larger space in the country, but the criteria remains concerning harmony and esthetics.  We must both find it acceptable.  The TT cannot dominate the room.
> ...


 
 Hi Ron ! I appreciate the comprehensive answer. That "around the corner" in Europe still can mean 1000 km+ one direction drive - but at least you no longer have to swim with a _*Masselaufwerk *_strapped to your back all the way to USA 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 I am "married" to the ET-2 - for life. The first among many.  And Carnegie One aka Empire MC 1-8 aka Sony XL MC 7?/9? is also one of the dearest carts in my stable.
 You need something stable for it - a very stable subchassis suspended table or preferably something more substantial - a high mass TT. ET-2 is often paired with good vintage DD TTs.
  
 Townshend would be a great choice - but it is rare and hard to get - and it is very sensitive to shipping damage due to the plaster parts/inserts. Heck, everything you listed should pair reasonably well with ET-2 ... If you need a stable TT that is exceptionally free from feedback etc, you need not to look further than Kuzma Reference.
 With ET/Carnegie, this should not lag far behind your ex-Apollo (if at all...)- and it can be found for reasonable price used if you are prepared to wait a bit. 
  
 http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/kuzma_stabi_e.html
  
 http://www.vinylengine.com/library/kuzma/stabi-reference.shtml
  
 Or - if you are on a mission to prove _*really *_inexpensive TT can be made into something great ( if you do not mind refurbishing it yourself ) - please go a "few" posts of mine back - to see if Telefunken S500 ( silver) or S600 (black) does make sense to you - if nothing else, as an interim solution. Without the coveted arm ( Ortofon AS212) , for which it usually gets caniballized, it can be had for a really friendly price. Natural habitat for these is ebay.de - and this one is shipping friendly if packed reasonably well. But please note it is time consuming to get it up and going - you can be the best judge how much time you can devote to TT refurbishing in "married enviroment" ...
  
 Regards,
  
 Aleksander


----------



## ]eep

I hope you don't mind if I post some pictures of your old 'table? It sure is worth showing...


----------



## msiklvr

Jeep thanks.  Great!  You found it.
  
 Those are the pictures I posted for the sale on Audioasylum.
  
 This was one of the prototypes, not sure how many we made, prior to the production of Proscenium.  The arm and air manifold are custom.  The air pump was an arrangement of 2 refrigerator compressors.  Lots of tweaks.  It took some time to set up the air lines but once set up it remained quite stable.  The table was quite easy to set up and required very little maintenance to keep it working.
  
 Ron


----------



## msiklvr

Aleksander,
  Thanks for the recommendations.  I'll keep an eye out for the Kuzma Reference.
  
 I have more time now and its winter (no gardening), so a hobby project might be fun.  I'll have a look back at your posts re the Telefunken.
  
 My first project is to build a hifi rack to blend in with the living room furniture.  Everything I see out there is either industrial or overpriced.
  
 Regards,
   Ron


----------



## bbophead

I know, it's only a Rega but the album is sensational sounding.  Big mono image, quiet surfaces, scary dynamic range and great jazz.  All from 1950.  So much for progress, ehh?


----------



## CrazyRay

Hi bbophead, never apologize for you equipment. 
 My nephew just bought a Rega, nice deck.
 You are enjoying the music, that is all that is important.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> I know, it's only a Rega but the album is sensational sounding.  Big mono image, quiet surfaces, scary dynamic range and great jazz.  All from 1950.  So much for progress, ehh?


 
 The most convincing reproduction of sound I heard so far  came from mono 78 recorded in 1943 in La Scala ( forgot which _*tenore *_... ) - on an obscenely expensive system owned by a friend.  Required purchase of another, MUCH bigger house in order to accommodate it ... what later proved to be unsustainable in the long run.


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > I know, it's only a Rega but the album is sensational sounding.  Big mono image, quiet surfaces, scary dynamic range and great jazz.  All from 1950.  So much for progress, ehh?
> ...


 

 Doesn't surprise me.  In many cases, the faster the speed ................


----------



## analogsurviver

msiklvr said:


> Aleksander,
> Thanks for the recommendations.  I'll keep an eye out for the Kuzma Reference.
> 
> I have more time now and its winter (no gardening), so a hobby project might be fun.  I'll have a look back at your posts re the Telefunken.
> ...


 
 Ron, regarding the hifi rack - please establish the size first. Allowing at least one cm if not an inch of "oversize" - ET-2 does need space to breathe during normal handling and it would be pity if by now so rare cart as Carnegie One gets decantilevered as the result of "just big enough" fit.
  
 These DO NOT lend themselves well to rebuilt or retip - by now, I think only Transfiguration is still producing these ring magnet MC cartridges. It is definitely the most difficult to work on, as it is basically meant to be assembled and NEVER again messed with, hence the reluctance of even Benz, who produced it from Sony parts back in the day, to support it. It was also the only cartridge I know of to feature THREE materials in its cantilever, with the Micro Ridge diamond mounted into a rectangular hole drilled into the cantilever by laser. It was one hell of a lot difficult to produce one that did not have a mild resonance around 8 kHz - but those that did escape this problem were simply in a class of their own. Not the most dynamic cartridge around, but one with the degree of shades of colours available that was - and probably still is - second to none. Quite difficult to set up in ET-2 well ( I heard it first mounted in ET-2 in Milan, Italy - and came back anything but impressed; the most difficult part in getting the ET-2 to sing with any cartridge is the horizontal decoupling spring adjustment - and it must have been completely off at that first encounter ...)
  
Carnegie One does appear sporadically on the used market - but its end price is nearing 1K. Same for the Sony XL MC 9 - these appear to be even rarer these days, originally available only in Japan.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Doesn't surprise me.  In many cases, the faster the speed ................


 
 Exactly.
  
 Recorded ( most likely direct to disk - magnetophon came at the very end of WW II ) and pressed in 1943 ...
  
 It started off with a true mono Benz Ruby cartridge ( you'll never find that one in any list ... ) - and went on in at least this style further.


----------



## awsanderson

bbophead said:


> I know, it's only a Rega but the album is sensational sounding.  Big mono image, quiet surfaces, scary dynamic range and great jazz.  All from 1950.  So much for progress, ehh?


 
 heard a rp6 vs an esoteric something 5 cd player thats what got me into vinyl


----------



## bbophead

Like.


----------



## Clayton SF

Relaxing this fine Sunday afternoon with Ella and André, and Gershwin. I found this sealed record at a used records store.


----------



## bbophead

Extremely nice find and beauty table!


----------



## Quinto

clayton sf said:


> Relaxing this fine Sunday afternoon with Ella and André, and Gershwin. I found this sealed record at a used records store.


 
 Cool find 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 What cartridge do you use and how do you like it?


----------



## Clayton SF

quinto said:


> Cool find
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It the Denon 160. I got two cartridges a few years ago. It sounds very good. Its output is 1.6mV so Craig Uthus of Eddie Current suggested I set his phono stage to MM for this cartridge even though it's an MC cartridge (go figure). I've played it consistently for 3 years and the stylus still seems in excellent condition. I also own a 103R which I have yet to use.


----------



## Eee Pee

Happy Monday!
  
 Reliving some memories from 1994 and checking out the new Schiit Mani phono pre.


----------



## Clayton SF

eee pee said:


> Happy Monday!
> 
> Reliving some memories from 1994 and checking out the new Schiit Mani phono pre.


 
 Eee Pee! How you be?
 Happy Monday to you, too.
 I didn't know Schiit about their phono stage--cool.
 Do tell when you have a moment.


----------



## bbophead

eee pee said:


> Happy Monday!
> 
> Reliving some memories from 1994 and checking out the new Schiit Mani phono pre.


 

 Love that baa-luu rekkid.  I'm easy.


----------



## Eee Pee

I just wanted to see the record, then I was like, well I might as well listen to it...
  
 Hey C, I be aight.  Mike Moffat designed this thing.  Being a long time Theta and Schiit fan I kinda had to have it.  Only $120, 4 gain options from 30 to 59 db.  Two loads, 47 and 47k.  
  
 Little story about it http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/4155#post_11117374
  
 It stacks great with my Mjolnir.


----------



## Shaffer

How does the Mani sound compared to other phono stages?


----------



## Eee Pee

I have one other to compare it to, the Soundsmith.
  
 More or less, I can't tell the two apart.  Which is really a nod in favor of the Mani because it costs a bit less and has adjustable gain.  Soundsmith I have is fixed at 43 db.  With the difference in price I could have another cartridge or two in my stable and really have a different sound if I wanted.  Like having different headphones.
  
  
  

  
  
 $130 or $650.


----------



## Clayton SF

eee pee said:


> I have one other to compare it to, the Soundsmith.
> 
> More or less, I can't tell the two apart.  Which is really a nod in favor of the Mani because it costs a bit less and has adjustable gain.  Soundsmith I have is fixed at 43 db.  With the difference in price I could have another cartridge or two in my stable and really have a different sound if I wanted.  Like having different headphones.
> 
> ...


 
  
 WANT!


----------



## Shaffer

You can't tell them apart and you're writing reviews? This place never ceases to amaze me.


----------



## Eee Pee

Apparently so.  The nerve of me.


----------



## Shaffer

eee pee said:


> Apparently so.  The nerve of me.




At the risk of stating the brutally obvious, it's nothing to be proud of.


----------



## Eee Pee

Sorry, didn't know protocol for a picture thread was writing an essay for a review between two cheap phonos.
  
 And to think I almost used just one word, similar.


----------



## Clayton SF

eee pee said:


> Sorry, didn't know protocol for a picture thread was writing an essay for a review between two cheap phonos.
> 
> And to think I almost used just one word, similar.


 
  
 I'm proud of you Eee Pee. Tell it like it is! 
  
 On a "similar" word, I am seriously thinking about getting that Schiit Mani for the bedroom. I can tuck it between shelves of Woos and platters & plinths. Right now I have 3 big ones (sort of): the Decware ZP3, Audio Electronics PH-1 DJH, and Eddie Current Transcription phono preamp.


----------



## Shaffer

eee pee said:


> Sorry, didn't know protocol for a picture thread was writing an essay for a review between two cheap phonos.
> 
> And to think I almost used just one word, similar.




You weren't asked to write a tome; just how the two compared. Similar? Okey-dokey. My Evo is similar to my minivan. They both have 4 wheels and both are capable of driving down the street.


----------



## bbophead

shaffer said:


> eee pee said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, didn't know protocol for a picture thread was writing an essay for a review between two cheap phonos.
> ...


 

 Really?


----------



## parbaked

shaffer said:


> How does the Mani sound compared to other phono stages?



I'm confused. Didn't you ask for a comparison? What reply were you expecting?


----------



## parbaked

clayton sf said:


> I'm proud of you Eee Pee. Tell it like it is!
> 
> On a "similar" word, I am seriously thinking about getting that Schiit Mani for the bedroom. I can tuck it between shelves of Woos and platters & plinths. Right now I have 3 big ones (sort of): the Decware ZP3, Audio Electronics PH-1 DJH, and Eddie Current Transcription phono preamp.




C-tone is Rollin' Phono Amps....


----------



## Funambulistic

Ah, Evo - got it...


----------



## Clayton SF

parbaked said:


> C-tone is Rollin' Phono Amps....


 
  
 I actually had 4 phono amps before but gave one to Ultra last year when I visited him in Belgium.


----------



## Shaffer

parbaked said:


> I'm confused. Didn't you ask for a comparison? What reply were you expecting?




Is this a trick question?


----------



## Shaffer

bbophead said:


> Really?




I had no idea you guys were so brilliantly clever in your replies.

Let's make his easy: You can live in a fantasy world and discuss the topic with folks who know virtually nothing about it, and often don't own turntables at all, but do review them - un-frikin-believable - and I'll simply unsubscribe from the thread. Clearly, knowledge and experience is readily equated with the opposite. Who benefits from this? Certainly not the forum. Enjoy the thread. I'm gone.


----------



## bbophead

Too bad you have a problem.  So long.


----------



## Clayton SF

The _*Fi Yph phono stage*_ is the one amp that I wish I hadn't sold.


----------



## parbaked

clayton sf said:


> The _*Fi Yph phono stage*_ is the one amp that I wish I hadn't sold.
> 
> All I can say is "Y" did you sell that!!


----------



## Eee Pee

Yeah that's too bad. I was shocked when you told me that. About a year long wait list when I asked Don Garber about one.


----------



## Clayton SF

eee pee said:


> Yeah that's too bad. I was shocked when you told me that. About a year long wait list when I asked Don Garber about one.


 
  
 Because I traded it in for the Leben CS600. I traded both the Yph and the Leben CS300xs for the 600. That's why!


----------



## parbaked

clayton sf said:


> Because I traded it in for the Leben CS600. I traded both the Yph and the Leben CS300xs for the 600. That's why!
> 
> How did the 300 compare to the 600? Are they similar??
> 
> Please no more than a one word answer!


----------



## Clayton SF

parbaked said:


> clayton sf said:
> 
> 
> > Because I traded it in for the Leben CS600. I traded both the Yph and the Leben CS300xs for the 600. That's why!
> ...


 
  
 Double.


----------



## parbaked

clayton sf said:


> Double.


. 

Nice review, thanks!


----------



## Eee Pee

Certainly summed that up nicely.


----------



## Clayton SF

eee pee said:


> Certainly summed that up nicely.


 

 Double my pleasure.
 Double the sound.
 Double the price.
 Double the weight.
 Double the model (300 / 600)
  
 Double the laughter!


----------



## ]eep

:rolleyes: Shouldn't you ppl be drinking eggnog for Christmas instead of vinegar? 

I can fully understand that someone doesn't hear the difference between 2 opamp based phono-pre's. I know how hard it it to conscientiously listen to something and not being able to hear the difference. And when I just * let go * I know which is which and what is better in an instant. 
FI I compared some of Mike Fremers files of an original RCA Living Stereo and a new reissue. When I listened with my ratio I kept making comparisons and checklists and I just could not decide which one I liked better. I could tell them apart from the noisefloor (there goes the ABX) but *not* which one was better. Then I thought: "Oh, sod it!" and I immediately recognised the old familiar Living Stereo sound as it should be. Yeah, it was the noisy one, but it revoked passion and emotion. It was just like I could smell the 60y-old cardboard like the box from our old Christmas decorations. The other one did not.

It is just like drinking a good mature single malt. Or wearing the same designer aftershave all the time. You get used to it and 'forget'. Then go back to the cheap stuff and suddenly you remember. Things aren't always so clearcut.


----------



## bbophead

I was enjoying my eggnog until someone dumped vinegar in it.


----------



## penmarker

Really?
  


Spoiler: Sorry



Sorry, can't resist. Not sorry.


----------



## Hunter220

Eee Pee beautiful setup and what record is that by the way?  I always see the bright blue record but never who it was.
  
 Quote:


eee pee said:


> Happy Monday!
> 
> Reliving some memories from 1994 and checking out the new Schiit Mani phono pre.


----------



## Eee Pee

Luscious Jackson.  Sophomore in college.


----------



## bbophead

penmarker said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Swear to god.


----------



## Greyson

Admittedly my equipment hasen't changed but I renovated my office this year and put wood floors in, repainted, etc. so I thought i'd take a new photo.
  
 I've seen these record frames that you mount on the wall and i'm thinking about putting 4 of them in a square grid above the turntable. Haven't decided yet.


----------



## Clayton SF

Excellent turntable. Nice setup. Who makes the record clamp.


greyson said:


> <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Great turntable.


 
  
 Excellent turntable. Nice setup. Who makes the record clamp?


----------



## Greyson

Thanks. It's a J.A. Michell clamp.


----------



## bbophead

Here's my new kitchen timer.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Here's my new kitchen timer.


----------



## Clayton SF

The best turntable for casual listening.
 Listen up! Another one to consider.
  
The Best Turntable
Audio Technica AT-LP120-USB
  
 The Audio Technica is highly adjustable, has a built-in phono preamp for hassle-free setup, sounds great out of the box, and has a built-in USB port if you want to digitize your LP collection.
  

 Front to back: Audio Technica LP120 USB, Pro-ject Debut Carbon, U-Turn Orbit Plus.


----------



## dosley01

This looks interesting for a budget TT. http://www.teac.com/product/tn-300/


----------



## Clayton SF

dosley01 said:


> This looks interesting for a budget TT. http://www.teac.com/product/tn-300/


 
  
 It's also a very handsome looking TT.


----------



## Greyson

clayton sf said:


> The best turntable for casual listening.
> Listen up! Another one to consider.
> 
> The Best Turntable
> Audio Technica AT-LP120-USB


 
  
 I've seen this review before and i'm extremely dubious. There is no list of the equipment they used, only an arbitrary price tag. And considering the guy who wrote this reviews Home Theatre equipment and their test figures came from an iPhone app, well, i'm skeptical.
  
 I'd also point out that they get a cut every time someone buys that turntable from Amazon using the link on that page. I wonder if their opinion would change if you could buy the Orbit through Amazon. I bought the LP120 and it had serious issues with non functioning anti-skate and audiable motor noise, the Orbit is a much better turntable for less money and it's assembled in the USA.


----------



## Clayton SF

greyson said:


> I've seen this review before and i'm extremely dubious. There is no list of the equipment they used, only an arbitrary price tag. And considering the guy who wrote this reviews Home Theatre equipment and their test figures came from an iPhone app, well, i'm skeptical.
> I'd also point out that they get a cut every time someone buys that turntable from Amazon using the link on that page. I wonder if their opinion would change if you could buy the Orbit through Amazon. I bought the LP120 and it had serious issues with non functioning anti-skate and audiable motor noise, the Orbit is a much better turntable for less money and it's assembled in the USA.


 
  
 You bring up some very good points. Yes, I did notice that link to Amazon.


----------



## zorin

*Unitra Fonica - Bambino 3*. A Polish 8kg portable TT, introduced in 1970. With the tube / valve amplification.


----------



## Skylab

Not my turntable or picture, but Onkyo has just introduced a new Direct Drive Turntable at the 2015 CES, $399 MSRP



That has the potential to be a very real contender in the entry level turntable department...


----------



## analogsurviver

skylab said:


> Not my turntable or picture, but Onkyo has just introduced a new Direct Drive Turntable at the 2015 CES, $399 MSRP
> 
> 
> 
> That has the potential to be a very real contender in the entry level turntable department...


 
 Great news ! Pictures http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=CP-1050&class=Turntable&source=prodClass show decent rubber mat and - what it looks like - a VTA adjustment ( ! ) similar to SL 1200 . Removable headshell means azimuth is possible to adjust - even if that requires buying another headshell offering azimuth adjustment. 
  
 Onkyo was/is one of those unsung heroes of DD - they did more in the department of "silencing"  that metal-ringing-merry-go-round-forEVER than anyone else. Albeit at then higher cost. What even those TTs lacked was fixed tonearm height/no VTA adjustment. If the arm bearings are at least decent without too much sample to sample variation and plinth and isolation is actually only half as good as it looks, this should be a game changer in entry level TTs.
  
 The first thing that should be replaced is the cartridge supplied - it is a basic conical stylus MM. As it does have RCA outputs at the back, this means it should be possible to use low capacitance cable to phono preamp - for those MM carts that benefit from low capacitance electrical loading. If the VTA adjustment is actually part of the deal, by adding a low capacitance (short...) cable from TT to phono preamp, an AT 440 MLa cart and a decent clamp, this could be a "serious" new TT -
 for <700 $. 
  
 And , obviously, they did consider getting the dreaded "cogging" of the DD motor as low as they could; can not wait what objective and subjective tests will reveal !


----------



## Skylab

Totally agree...put a decent cartridge on that bad boy and one is in business. I am really glad to see a new, affordable DD back on the market.


----------



## analogsurviver

Now I know that pairing a $ 399 ( in some sources  $599 ...) TT ( the new Onkyo DD ) with a $ 8500 DS Audio optical cart/preamp is not *exactly* the most usual combination - but it IS questionable if this hypothetical $9000 budget can be better spent:
  
 http://www.analogplanet.com/content/optical-cartridge-designer-inteviewed-analogplanetcom
  

  
 Add a decent clamping system and - more or less - call it a day ... (provided the new Onkyo does not stink to high heaven to begin with).


----------



## ]eep

Now that new Onkyo Direct Drive Turntable really looks the part. And it is different. Different from it's modern belt-drive competitors and from the DD's of old. But how it performs? That has to be determined still by (a few) decent reviews and comparisons. My guess (spoiler: don't read if you are allergic to opinions) is that the platter and arm could be holding it back.

BTW, the price in the UK (and presumably Europe) is a lot higher with 400GBP (that's $600). Why is a product from Japan (China) 1.5 times more expensive? That's not just VAT (taxes) nor is it freight.


----------



## Greyson

Don't quote me on this but I would wager that the Onkyo table is made in the same Hanpin factory as the Audio Technica's, Stantons, etc. It looks nice though, that's for sure. At least it's not another Technics clone.
  
 It seems Monoprice is entering the fray as well with their own 130$ DD turntable that looks very similar to the AT.
  
 http://www.monoprice.com/Product/ProductPrint?c_id=115&cp_id=11506&cs_id=1150605&p_id=614450


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Now that new Onkyo Direct Drive Turntable really looks the part. And it is different. Different from it's modern belt-drive competitors and from the DD's of old. But how it performs? That has to be determined still by (a few) decent reviews and comparisons. My guess (spoiler: don't read if you are allergic to opinions) is that the platter and arm could be holding it back.
> 
> BTW, the price in the UK (and presumably Europe) is a lot higher with 400GBP (that's $600). Why is a product from Japan (China) 1.5 times more expensive? That's not just VAT (taxes) nor is it freight.


 
 I hope reviews and comparisons to be out ASAP - reasonable in 2-3 months. As Onkyo is available globally, that means at least reviews from Germany, UK and US (alphabetical order ). 
  
 I assume platter to be a cast alu/zinc alloy or similar - of about the same "trouble" as Thorens, Linn, etc. With an important twist - it has nice straight outer circumference without funny/fancy shape(s) and is not cramped
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 within the turntable as say SL-1200 - or old Onkyo models. More about this at a later stage.
  
 Arm is "nothing special". And can not be expected at anything the price. Rega with its cast tube arm made everything else obsolete/uncompetitive decades ago - after its appearance, most of the tonearm manufacturers offering mid price models simply ceased to exist, with few notable exceptions like Jelco. Rega in its various incarnations is used to keep the price of the whole TT package reasonable - in MANY TTs that alone dwarf the cost of the new Onkyo. Be it as it may, Onkyo arm does allow for azimuth adjustment - and most likely - for the VTA. And in this it is better than Rega - so only a test and comparison could give an honest verdict. It is the same old resonance control vs fine adjustment capability dilemma - which can be eliminated, but at much higher prices.
  
 I am bothered too by this trend in pricing of Chinese made products in the USA and EU. Take iFi Audio - same price, but in USA in $ and in Europe in EUR  - and they are no way alone in doing so.


----------



## analogsurviver

greyson said:


> Don't quote me on this but I would wager that the Onkyo table is made in the same Hanpin factory as the Audio Technica's, Stantons, etc. It looks nice though, that's for sure. At least it's not another Technics clone.
> 
> It seems Monoprice is entering the fray as well with their own 130$ DD turntable that looks very similar to the AT.
> 
> http://www.monoprice.com/Product/ProductPrint?c_id=115&cp_id=11506&cs_id=1150605&p_id=614450


 
 I do not consider current AT TT to be a serious machine - and if Monoprice is same/similar, that goes for it too.
 But the $130 price should make ANY consideration of Crosley & similar atrocities obsolete - for good. Although
 AT/Monoprice TTs are not "serious", at least they do not destroy the records in a single - or few - plays. In view of this, Monoprice is most welcome.  
  
 IF you are asking WHY I do not consider current AT TTs serious - please look how did the AT tonearms look back in the day. True, costly high end - but still very much in demand on the used market to this very day. I can not see anything of the sort happening in the future with the current made to a price point AT TTs.


----------



## Eee Pee




----------



## Eee Pee

These little Schiits are fun. 

AT cart is settling in nicely. Little shouty sometimes. I'm around hour 8 of use.


----------



## Clayton SF

eee pee said:


> These little Schiits are fun.
> 
> AT cart is settling in nicely. Little shouty sometimes. I'm around hour 8 of use.


 
  
 I like the look.  Living on both edges!


----------



## Eee Pee




----------



## Greyson

Just looking at those images makes me nervous, that Traveler is really hanging on the edge.


----------



## msiklvr

An update on the TT status.  Pictures to follow!
  
 The replacement for the Apollo is an EAT Forte with Morch DP-8 arm and Madrigal Carnegie One cartridge.
  
 I feel like the picture of the dog with the big smile.  Simply magnificent sound.  Makes me want to play records all day long.
  
 I'll post some pictures very soon.


----------



## Funambulistic

eee pee said:


>


 

 My toddlers would make short work of that situation - hence my waiting a few years to get back into the vinyl game. Beautiful though...


----------



## ]eep

It looks like asking for trouble. Top heavy. Murphy's Law... 
Or not telling the $5/h cleaning lady to stay away from your turntable with Lyra or Clearaudio Goldfinger cart.

I was looking for an illustrative photo, but couldn't really find one (to ashamed to post?) but the story I found is illustration enough (maybe even better):


> Q: Our cleaning lady accidentally broke my cantilever on my Lyra Argo cart. with her rag while dusting the area around it. The cantilever is totally broken off. Could I have this retip, if so, who can do it?
> 
> A: This isn't the first, and I'm sure not the last time we will hear about a cleaning lady wrecking havoc with a phono cartridge cantilever. That was an expensive error. I would take it up with the company that provides the service. You need to be compensated for the loss.
> 
> ...




Cats, toddlers and cleaning ladies can be trained, fate cannot. And Murphy's law has no sense of humour.


----------



## Eee Pee

Living on the edge, vinyl brothers!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Long as I don't drunk stumble, I'll be okay.


----------



## bbophead

eee pee said:


> Living on the edge, vinyl brothers!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 And good luck with that.


----------



## Eee Pee

Aye, 11.5% will do ya.


----------



## bbophead

eee pee said:


> Aye, 11.5% will do ya.


 

 Eventually, it will DO ya.  That's why my stuff is drunk proof.


----------



## Eee Pee

I got a funny (to me) story about a nose dive into a SOTA table of mine with Ben Folds Five playing.  Table was on four crossed cinder blocks on top of half tennis balls.  Barely flinched.  Too funny.  Friends won't let that one go.  To this day, one of my favorite records still.


----------



## Greyson

Really though, you could sort that situation out with a trip to Goodwill. Your gear looks pretty congested on that table.


----------



## Clayton SF

eee pee said:


> Living on the edge, vinyl brothers!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I am my own cleaning lady so I am at my utmost best behavior; you can invite me over to help flip records.


----------



## Eee Pee

I've got other tables. And other tables. 

And records to flip. Burgers to flip too.


----------



## msiklvr

A couple of pictures of the new rig. Next project: a dust cover.


----------



## bbophead

Interesting looking.  I wonder what I'm looking at.


----------



## msiklvr

E.A.T. Forte turntable, Morch Dp-8 arm, Madrigal Carnegie One cartridge, makeshift audio rack.


----------



## zorin

http://blog.eil.com/2015/01/11/the-vinyl-revival-is-not-about-sound-its-about-identity/?utm_source=Blog.eil.com+Record+Collecting+News&utm_campaign=74fa98a8de-Blog-2015-01-15&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_488cee8dc3-74fa98a8de-263183477
  
  
  
  




  
 http://www.buzzfeed.com/perpetua/things-vinyl-collectors-love?sub=2423454_1364205#.tnlzlqrVw
  
  
  
  




  
 http://www.billboard.com/articles/business/6406630/vinyl-records-comeback-music-industry-record-store-day
  
  
  
  




  
 http://blog.eil.com/2015/01/07/vinyls-difficult-comeback/
  
  
  
  




  
 http://blog.eil.com/2014/12/27/press-your-own-vinyl-with-the-desktop-record-cutter/
  
  
  




  
 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-30679108
  
  
  




  
 http://blog.eil.com/2015/01/03/what-weird-vinyl-orders-are-doing-to-old-school-record-production/
  
  
  




  
 http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-releases/the-10-weirdest-things-pressed-into-vinyl-records-this-year/
  
  
  
  




  
 http://blog.eil.com/2014/11/12/meet-the-aussie-who-built-a-house-for-his-gigantic-record-collection/
  
  
  




  
 http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-releases/world-records-the-global-vinyl-economy-in-four-interactive-maps/


----------



## bbophead

msiklvr said:


> E.A.T. Forte turntable, Morch Dp-8 arm, Madrigal Carnegie One cartridge, makeshift audio rack.


 

 Thanks.  I'd never seen a belt arrangement like that.


----------



## msiklvr

The theory is that two small motors generate less noise.  In practice, the patter comes up to speed relatively quickly with no assist required. The electronic controller holds the speed dead on as measured with KAB, with no variation due to stylus load.  Of course the 44lb platter helps.


----------



## bbophead

That's certainly one way to do it.  Congratulations!


----------



## analogsurviver

msiklvr said:


> A couple of pictures of the new rig. Next project: a dust cover.


 
 I've got acres of land, I've got man at command
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... ( "somewhere from Pentagle albums - LPs, of course ).
  
 Well, this just about does occupy one of the biggest footprints in TT (acres of) land. A hint - do not get frugal with HEIGHT of the planned dustcover - please allow some 15 cm or so clearance above the LP level. One never knows what NEXT arm or clamp might require
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Congrats. I am curious how does the Carnegie One like Morch DP-8 vs ET2 ? I am familiar with Morch DP-6, DP-8 should be a considerable upgrade.


----------



## msiklvr

Hi,
  I wish I could answer the comparison question.  This is the first time I've listened to the Carnegie and have never mounted the ET-2.  Maybe some day in the future.
  
 I've allowed 15cm for the cover height, but it will be free standing, outside the dimensions of the TT so I can put a shim under it if I need more height.
  
 Thanks for the input!
  
 Dialing the cartridge at the moment.  Takes a long time to get it right!


----------



## analogsurviver

msiklvr said:


> Hi,
> I wish I could answer the comparison question.  This is the first time I've listened to the Carnegie and have never mounted the ET-2.  Maybe some day in the future.
> 
> I've allowed 15cm for the cover height, but it will be free standing, outside the dimensions of the TT so I can put a shim under it if I need more height.
> ...


 
 Take your time with the C1 - do not rush it. 30 years on, it is still unsurpassed in some aspects. 
  
 If I ever decide to DIY my own arm wands for the ET2 ( these have gone up in price - not exhorbitantely so, but still... - if you need say 10 pcs...) , one of the permanently mounted carts  will be Empire MC 1-8  (- aka Carnegie One - aka Sony XL MC 9 ). Boy, do I miss it sometimes - but after you all will see to which degree 
any of the cartridges I use gets adjusted/honed, it will be clear why MC 1-8 sits in the storage.


----------



## Schnarpf

Ok, I have another one. At the moment is humming instead of making music, but that can be solved, hopefully


----------



## analogsurviver

schnarpf said:


> Ok, I have another one. At the moment is humming instead of making music, but that can be solved, hopefully


 
 Goldmund, Audiomeca, Lurne ?


----------



## Schnarpf

Sorry! Goldmund Studio from ca 1983. the most complex tonearm I ever saw and it is still working with electronic lifting on the run-out groove. Great example of how to make something simple very complicated.


----------



## analogsurviver

schnarpf said:


> Sorry! Goldmund Studio from ca 1983. the most complex tonearm I ever saw and it is still working with electronic lifting on the run-out groove. Great example of how to make something simple very complicated.


 
 Hehe, in part of my country adjacent to Italy people call things like this "same pasta" - ALL of the above were/are designed by Pierre Lurne. OK, not the simplest of designs - but definitely worth fixing the hum problem. It is a quality table and was a truckload of money back then... - it is a direct drive built in boutique numbers, acryl platter etc.
  
 http://www.vinylengine.com/library/goldmund/studio.shtml


----------



## zorin

Just watch all of it
  
 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9YN8KvxcBA
  
 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRMJmBVgyo4
  
 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QccU9syNWJw


----------



## Redcarmoose

Seems like this is a good idea?


----------



## zorin

redcarmoose said:


> Seems like this is a good idea?


 
 Wouldn't the strong electro-magnetic field cause interference of the electro-acoustic signal in conductors ?


----------



## Redcarmoose

zorin said:


> Wouldn't the strong electro-magnetic field cause interference of the electro-acoustic signal in conductors ?





Well, they are just magnets and we already have magnets in the motor and needle? Right?


----------



## penmarker

But the magnets has to be strong enough to push 20-30 pounds of mass. Different cases.


----------



## zorin

penmarker said:


> But the magnets has to be strong enough to push 20-30 pounds of mass. Different cases.


 
 Yes, the strength of the field required to levitate a substantial mass would be scales of magnitude bigger compared to the strength of the field generated by a motor. The E-M field of the stylus is very small and on the top of it its fluctuations are actually the manifestation of the electro-acoustic 'audio' signal going to speakers or to headphones.


----------



## Redcarmoose

zorin said:


> Yes, the strength of the field required to levitate a substantial mass would be scales of magnitude bigger compared to the strength of the field generated by a motor. The E-M field of the stylus is very small and on the top of it its fluctuations are actually the manifestation of the electro-acoustic 'audio' signal going to speakers or to headphones.





Considering all the crazy stuff to reduce vibration and feedback this toy goes right with the other toys. Guess you just have to try it and turn the volume up with no music and listen, then play music and listen. Then tap on different stuff like the floor and table and listen.

it has to be better than attaching a shelf to your room wall. Still folks using giant slabs of rock or suspending stuff with string works good too. I am of the club that believes all this esoteric audio stuff. Every little thing can create an improvement at times.

Still everything needs to be relevant. I would not put a $1000 base for a $400 turntable. I think they show a picture like that? Lol.


----------



## yeahx

I feel like something more simple like rubber or a gel like filled layer would work, but Im not an engineer. Plus it wouldn't look nearly as cool anyways.


----------



## Smithington

If you're a sucker for expensive isolation equipment, to get another .01% of detail (fictional figure of course) Townsend audio have been making these for years.

http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation-platform/


----------



## ]eep

The magnetic field shouldn't be a problem. My Clearaudio TT has magnetic feet too. It is a good idea, but there are more ways to skin a goose (or cook it?) And there are cheaper ways. 
You can use sorbothane feet. A very absorbing type of 'rubber' that you can get rather cheap in the form of non-audio related stuff. Just blocks or inlay soles or w/e. 
What I've done is take a heavy slab of natural stone (granite) from the garden centre, DIY (just one big tile) or stonemason (is that the correct word? ppl who make headstones etc. they often have pieces leftover). Support it with 2 stiff supports on 1 side (spikes, cups, marbles) and soft suspension on the other (styrofoam and/or springs). That way you can tune the frequency by moving the supports. With a substantial weight the resonant frequency is about 2-5Hz, the same as slamming doors, walking sounds etc. If you place the spikes in front (they function as a hinge), you can move the springy support in the back out of sight. Move those forward, closer together, and you make the frequency lower, move them out>higher. 
With the 2 spikes you fixate any sideway movement, and for the the springy parts you can use whatever strikes your fancy without risk to unwanted sliding of. You can use pingpong balls, halved squashballs, pieces of styrofoam, airbags used in packing (but those tend to deflate over time), maybe even a bicycle inner tube. 
FYI; I use a piece of leftover black granite under the Clearaudio because they absorb different frequencies. One glass door in my living-room gives a particularly nasty thump that makes the needle skip every time. This construction completely eliminates all problems.


----------



## analogsurviver

Magnetic levitation is a good way of decoupling things from vibration while still having a good control over larger excursions. It is only bested by a really well implemented air supports - usually seen in Scanning Electron Microscopes (SEMs). Everything else introduces more coupling/less isolation. 
  
 But then again, it has been proven that turntable can extract information smaller than what can be seen on a SEM ...
  
 It is true that it has to be held in proportions - a $ 1000 support may be peanuts for $ 50.000 TT, but is overkill for a $ 300 TT. 
  
 Recently, there was resurrection of turntables with main bearings assisted with magnet levitation - a la Platine Verdier, although on smaller scale. By Clearaudio (and OEM built tables for others, like Mc Intosh ).


----------



## ]eep

redcarmoose said:


> Still everything needs to be relevant. I would not put a $1000 base for a $400 turntable. I think they show a picture like that? Lol.



If you can buy that table for $400 my recommendation is to buy it straightaway. It's a Pro-ject Perspex that cost $2000. It looks very nice in combination with the support but I don't really know if it is really necessary since it's a rather springy subchassis turntable (if it's like my previous Perspective).


----------



## Redcarmoose

]eep said:


> If you can buy that table for $400 my recommendation is to buy it straightaway. It's a Pro-ject Perspex that cost $2000. It looks very nice in combination with the support but I don't really know if it is really necessary since it's a rather springy subchassis turntable (if it's like my previous Perspective).








Sorry should have made my point more clear. I was referring to this $399 TT on a $1000 base.

http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Ject-13089-Debut-Carbon-Green/dp/B0080EKE4K

http://m.ebay.com/itm/301435762422?nav=SEARCH


----------



## ]eep

Strange photo indeed. I would simply toss the base on that big block of granite. But hey, it's high end! (in the worst possible sense of the word)


----------



## penmarker

Well butter my butt and call me a biscuit, the maglev base does exist after all. I thought the strong magnetic field would interfere with the cart's reading ability.


----------



## Eee Pee

penmarker said:


> Well butter my butt and call me a biscuit


 
 Mmmm.  Buttery biscuit butts.  Sounds good.


----------



## Smithington

I know, I know, these aren't pics of the complete TT (which is a Project Xpression), but I think they are close enough. 
  
 1 point to anyone who can correctly identify the album sleeve in the top pic


----------



## Kavahead

It's odd that they are selling a magnet levitation platform with a Pro-ject Perspex on top since the Perspex has a magnet levitation sub-chassis. I guess two magnetic levitated platforms are better than one? lol
  
 I didn't notice any issue or effect on my cart from this table.


----------



## zorin

*Please read it slowly so that it sinks into your heads. It is worthy.*
  
 http://blog.eil.com/2015/01/30/vinyl-records-pressed-on-x-rays/?+Record+Collecting+News&utm_term=0_488cee8dc3-4aa793f707-263183477


----------



## Redcarmoose

zorin said:


> [COLOR=4B0082]*Please read it slowly so that it sinks into your heads. It is worthy.*[/COLOR]
> 
> http://blog.eil.com/2015/01/30/vinyl-records-pressed-on-x-rays/?+Record+Collecting+News&utm_term=0_488cee8dc3-4aa793f707-263183477




That was cool and reminds me how we never ever know it all.


These two books sent me on a ten year mission. I read every page 20 times and found much of the music.

The books are still out there!







Also.......http://waxidermy.com



The ultimate site about thrift store records.



At times I feel I have a PHD all concerning music no one cares about, knows about or even found out about in it's day.


----------



## Redcarmoose

They just made these again, being the old ones were mostly scratched beyond usability.


----------



## ]eep

redcarmoose said:


> They just made these again, being the old ones were mostly scratched beyond usability.




I have a good set of the first 5, no scratches (what? they are Ex+), all original. 
Someone suggested I throw them of the balcony to see how far they get, but they seem to be worth a lot of money ($600). So if anyone want to buy them... I promised to donate the money I get for it to a good cause.

I just finished reading about the bone music (not to be confused with Tom Waits Bone Machine  boy, would HE be intrigued) and I found some great quotes that make you go 'hmm': 


> “We need to get out of that mindset that background noise happens at the expense of clarity. In the course of my research I listened to cylinders of performances that date back over 100 years ago. It’s hard to explain it, but you registered an acute presence in those recordings that was undeniable.”
> 
> Kolkowski agrees. “Humans like to hear things that sound like recordings, but the imperfections – the hisses and crackles – make us listen a bit harder. Reaching for perfection is more rewarding to the ears, whereas modern digital recordings deliver perfection directly. Somehow, without the effort, some of the satisfaction is taken away.”



I visit the 2ndH store about every week (the money of all 2ndH stores over here goes to charity) and I keep finding great stuff. Last week I got two Philips maroon HifistereO album, a Bach Cantatas (singing sounds dated but quality is great) and an E Powewr Biggs Handel organ music that was mint. For free! In our bible belt organ music is ubiquitous and the Bach cantata was 'unplayably scratched. Well, as it turned out, the scratch was wide, but superficial. It throws an oldfashioned spherical needle off like a bull in a rodeo but I could hardly *hear* it with my modern stylus. Another thing I am thrilled about is a Karajan Brahms box. It is an old DG with tulips on the label and a limited edition card (nr 317!). It is from the early '60-ies and it sounds absolutely marvelous. Clean, clear and transparent. It's almost like a direct to disc record. Wow.


----------



## Anavel0

]eep said:


> I have a good set of the first 5, no scratches (what? they are Ex+), all original.
> Someone suggested I throw them of the balcony to see how far they get, but they seem to be worth a lot of money ($600). So if anyone want to buy them... I promised to donate the money I get for it to a good cause.


 Feeding an addiction is not a good cause.


----------



## atubbs

kavahead said:


> It's odd that they are selling a magnet levitation platform with a Pro-ject Perspex on top since the Perspex has a magnet levitation sub-chassis. I guess two magnetic levitated platforms are better than one? lol
> 
> I didn't notice any issue or effect on my cart from this table.


 
  
 The Pro-Ject 10.1 has a large isolation platform mounted on magnets, and then the platter itself is mounted on a magnet/bearing combination (the magnet is adjustment to determine how much levitation is applied to the spindle). Interestingly, the best results do not appear to come with completely levitating the platter, but rather still allow a bit of loading on the bearing. Playing around with things that will respond to magnets, I don't think the magnetic fields are very strong once it gets out to the distance of the cartridge. I don't have any reason to believe there's a downside in terms of how it effects the wires or cartridge, but admittedly there isn't a comparable version without the magnets.


----------



## ]eep

anavel0 said:


> Feeding an addiction is not a good cause.



Well, unless... 
I mean, the addiction is already there. The plan is to publish awareness (ok, it's not exactly what you were referring to but it's remarkably close) against 'the addiction' 100-fold. So, not really sacrificing 1 to possibly save a 100 is pretty good odds in my perspective. 
I love music and I like collecting music of all sorts but I can enjoy the silence all day long.


----------



## yeahx

There really needs to be more giveaways of decent turntables. This one just doesn't seem worth the hassle. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  

  
 Just noticed it's a Crosley too.
  
 I  wonder if those Xray records get scratched up as easily as vinyl. Is there nothing better to make records out of that wouldn't be so delicate yet still be cheap and light enough to be doable and not too hard on the stylus?


----------



## Redcarmoose

yeahx said:


> There really needs to be more giveaways of decent turntables. This one just doesn't seem worth the hassle. :tongue_smile:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If you were playing records at 9 years old......


----------



## yeahx

Country Living magazine is giving it away. To win you have to tell them the page number that has a horse shoe and what is the first record you would play on it and why. Is it just me or isn't the usual reason you want to listen to music because you like it? They want a cute story Im sure but the ones they get will probably be fake. I think I would rather have that Barbie one actually for all that trouble.
  
 I like my simple used JVC even if auto repeats when it shouldn't, but I'd like a chance to win something better than that crap. The Project and McIntosh giveaways seem to have dried up or Im no googling right. Sorry, just wanted to rant.
  
 I did see one of these not long ago and thought it would be cool just to collect.
  

  
 ...I couldn't even find a copy of Country Living in the local supermarkets.


----------



## Redcarmoose

yeahx said:


> Country Living magazine is giving it away. To win you have to tell them the page number that has a horse shoe and what is the first record you would play on it and why.





Yes, they want someone to remember they still have the records from being a teenager, but no turntable. They want a story about how a certain song has a meaning for them and a connection to a time and place.

That is part of why everyone is here. Obviously folks are here for a lot of reasons but I believe it was mainly an emotional connection they had that they are still chasing to some extent.

Seriously, how close can you get to music by listening? The closeness comes from living a moment where the music is just an integral part. 

Sadly it is not something you can get to by just putting a record on. Still if someone has some old vinyl laying around, they become faint stapshots which remind them of another time and place.


----------



## bbophead

I can get close enough.


----------



## Eee Pee

Hah, I had that Fisher Price thing.
  
 Given enough beers I can get pretty darn close, also.


----------



## yeahx

When I first saw it, I could have swore I had one as a child too but I had the one that played the fake records and sound like a music box.
  
 Yeah I listen to some music that takes me back to a certain time period but not an exact moment that would make a prize worthy story.
  
 Sorry, no more late night posting for me.


----------



## Redcarmoose

Yes, I had one and I could spend hours playing records. They were regular records but ten inch and different colors. You could change the needle by putting in a different straight pin.lol. 

That and the microscope were my favorite things. Funny I would grow up to take microscopic photographs and collect records?



To our young and inexperienced ears they sounded perfect!



For me the 1970s were total fun. I just remember parties where we had certain records which were really important. My parents had a huge record collection and I spent a whole summer listening to them. My Stepmother was only ten years older so she had all of The Moody Blues, Rod Stewart, The Beatles and even Led Zeppelin. Big Advent speakers and no one home so I could turn it up as loud as I wanted. Like most 13 year olds I played Elton John records the most.


----------



## Androb

Hello! Just had to share my story from todays experience.
 I allways had my lcd3 and some turntables (dads) but not a very good phono amp so the sound have been flat and unlistenable.
 Went to a hifi store in Gothenburg today and got my hands on a new phono amp! Damn this thing turned everything around so now I can enjoy all my records. This thing runs both mm and mc so it turns out dad had an old Audio-Technica at f5/occ MC cartridge. Put this on and now i'm in vinyl heaven 
 So now i'm running a Luxman DD turntable, Audio-Technica at f5/occ MC cartridge, with Vincent pho-8 phono amp into a diy clone of Lehmann bcl (also dads creation lol) into my LCD-3.
 Great stuff!


----------



## bbophead

androb said:


> Hello! Just had to share my story from todays experience.
> I allways had my lcd3 and some turntables (dads) but not a very good phono amp so the sound have been flat and unlistenable.
> Went to a hifi store in Gothenburg today and got my hands on a new phono amp! Damn this thing turned everything around so now I can enjoy all my records. This thing runs both mm and mc so it turns out dad had an old Audio-Technica at f5/occ MC cartridge. Put this on and now i'm in vinyl heaven
> So now i'm running a Luxman DD turntable, Audio-Technica at f5/occ MC cartridge, with Vincent pho-8 phono amp into a diy clone of Lehmann bcl (also dads creation lol) into my LCD-3.
> Great stuff!


 

 Dayam!  ROCK ON!  (Beauty shots)  
  
 Your thrift stores are a lot different than our thrift stores.


----------



## Androb

bbophead said:


> Dayam!  ROCK ON!  (Beauty shots)
> 
> Your thrift stores are a lot different than our thrift stores.


 
 Rock all night!!
 Cheers, and how come?


----------



## bbophead

Because I've never seen a phono preamp, good or bad, in any thrift store in the US.
  
 Maybe your definition of a thrift store (Sweden) is different than mine (USA).
  
 Anyway, I envy you.


----------



## yeahx

All I see is "hifi store". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You confused me too so I had to re-read it.
  
 Looks nice.


----------



## Androb

bbophead said:


> Because I've never seen a phono preamp, good or bad, in any thrift store in the US.
> 
> Maybe your definition of a thrift store (Sweden) is different than mine (USA).
> 
> Anyway, I envy you.



Sorry for my english, since I never heard thrift store, looked it up and found it had something to do with clothes lol.

Oh well it's a really nice store, the owner got tons of tube amps, high end TT, high end speakers etc etc.



yeahx said:


> All I see is "hifi store". :wink_face:  You confused me too so I had to re-read it.
> 
> Looks nice.



Haha I thought hifi store would be a common thing to say lol, sorry bout that.
Cheers and it performs quite well, making you wonder how more expensive ones perform!


----------



## analogsurviver




----------



## ]eep

hey Androb, that looks really sharp. I think the Luxman is visually really striking. clear cut lines, simple and straightforward but with style. Not cheap simple but minimalistic simple, which is as it should be in my opinion.

The AT-OC5 looks great in it too, it really finishes it off. It's a great little cart too (little is my way of looking at it because I used the big brother, an OC9 for years). I bet it sounds awesome in an absolute sense (meaning it simply sounds good on an absolute as well as relative scale).

Talking about thrift store; I went to the next town 10km on and found a new trove. A small but well selected collection of records, all peppery minty. They even had two nice turntables, Pioneer DJ type but they looked very usable, clean and checked and not worn, one €35 and one without headshell/cart for €25. 
And again, many nice records; one RCA Red Seal LM mono like from analogsurvivers clip ^, one HMV ALP mono, several DGG tulips and red stereo, Decca SXL and LXT, Turnabout (Vox hidden gems!) and EMI-Electrola cream/gold. One is a special one IMO; it is Columbia EMI Karajan, Philharmonia Orch London, Dennis Brain Mozart hornconcertos, really mint cover and vinyl with the moniker 'Breitklang' on it. Meaning widesound, so it wasn't even called stereo yet, but had a German equivalent. Finding albums like that is like diving headsdown in history, or pure nostalgia. It's really a kick to find such well preserved beauties. And for €1,50/pc. 
Found a different copy, just as well preserved. 


It still has the original pricetag on it; DM25, that was a lot of money then (early 60's). Calculating for inflation (700%x) and DM>$ that would amount to $100 for 1 album! I understand why my dad didn't have that many records.


----------



## Androb

]eep said:


> hey Androb, that looks really sharp. I think the Luxman is visually really striking. clear cut lines, simple and straightforward but with style. Not cheap simple but minimalistic simple, which is as it should be in my opinion.
> 
> The AT-OC5 looks great in it too, it really finishes it off. It's a great little cart too (little is my way of looking at it because I used the big brother, an OC9 for years). I bet it sounds awesome in an absolute sense (meaning it simply sounds good on an absolute as well as relative scale).
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks! I totally agree, I got to take over a TT from my dad so I picked this, mainly cause I liked the design but also since I had nice experience from Luxman before.

 And my dad actually got the cart for free when he bought a used TT for like absolutely nothing!

 Sweet, I bet that cart sounds great  I'm stunned with the performance I got atm!


----------



## Behemoth27




----------



## ]eep

And another timeless beauty! 

BTW, is that a Jolida JD9 I see there in the rack below?


----------



## Behemoth27

] eep" url="/t/549616/post-a-photograph-of-your-turntable/3870#post_11311181 said:
			
		

> And another timeless beauty!
> 
> BTW, is that a Jolida JD9 I see there in the rack below?




Yes it is. I've updated a couple things since that picture, but still have the jolida currently. However, thinking about selling that and the schiit uber to upgrade the jolida to something that's actually tube.


----------



## ]eep

I suggest you consider modifying it instead of selling it! I have modified it extensively and it only got better and better. There is a lot to improve on it, on the tubestage, on the output, on the input and a lot on the opamp RIAA section. Some things are easy to do, others take soldering skils. The trouble with it is *not* that it isn't really a tubephono (the tubestage is more of an afterthought and directly taken from their tube-preamplifier) but the biggest 'problem' with it is that it has so much amplification because of the modular build. 
I have participated on several fora and I have seem plenty of idiotic things, but I am sort of a veteran on the JD9 and know what pays off and what doesn't. The trick is to trim it in the right places. Some things hardly cost any money. I have taken it where no man has gone before  If I would look for improving on it I would have to spend >>2k. 

I am sort of an early adopter of Chinese gear and have modified many items. Mostly dacs and tubegear. The French Jolida distributor even stole my photo's of the inside (they probably considered it 'loaning'). My unit even turned up (via this French connection) in the TNT review. 

If you want specifics I suggest you don't take it to far off-topic here but PM me.


----------



## zowie

I have two of those.  They're really not up to the peformance level of my 15 yr old Crosley.
 (Really.)
  
 Quote:


yeahx said:


> I did see one of these not long ago and thought it would be cool just to collect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...I couldn't even find a copy of Country Living in the local supermarket


----------



## dosley01

behemoth27 said:


> Yes it is. I've updated a couple things since that picture, but still have the jolida currently. However, thinking about selling that and the schiit uber to upgrade the jolida to something that's actually tube.


 

 I sold my JD9 as soon as I got my Rogue 99 Magnum with the phono stage.  While the JD9 was good, I really preferred the all tube phono section hands down.  That being said, I've probably spent more since on tubes than I spent on the Jolida originally.  Ironically, I just saw the guy I sold it to, about two years ago, flip it for about $100 more than both he and I paid for it originally.


----------



## ]eep

> While the JD9 was good, I really preferred the all tube phono section hands down.



Still off-topic, but that is not what I was pointing out. I have had a few different phonostages, including a really good all tube stage that was integrated in an integrated tube-amplifier. I have a second modified all-tube phonostage as well. And the modified Jolida is simply better. Is has lots of potential with rather simple rework. That is probably why the guy was able to sell it for a $100 more. The buyer probably knew this, you did not. That is the real irony.
Plus that the US-distributer has raised the price considerably (and there is a lot of mayhem between the Chinese manufacturer and jolida.us who both claim ownership).


----------



## analogsurviver

21+ years old video about making gramophone records in Croatia Records, ex Jugoton (pronounce Yugoton ) in Zagreb, one of the three facilities for record production in  Yugoslavia prior to disintegration.  In captions below are descriptions in Croat language describing more or less the same as the RCA video post a few posts back. It is interesting to see the differences in approach.
  
 The music playing is a ballad from one of the most popular rock band in Jugoslavija, Bijelo Dugme ( transl. White Button ) 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCQCSC9_H_s
 from the album _Bitanga i princeza  ( _transl. Rascal and Princess ) http://www.discogs.com/Bijelo-Dugme-Bitanga-I-Princeza/release/926586
  
 They chose a most fitting song - it is about separation of lovers and regret, particularly the verse "al' moglo je bolje..." (transl: we could have done it better... ) ; 
  
 I remember buying another copy of this album post 1994 - with the sticker Croatia Records overlapping over the printed Jugoton.  Stocks from the past...
 Despite everything that happened here in 90s, this group and this album and specially this song is still being treasured in all parts of once common country - 36 years after being first issued.


----------



## ]eep

Hm, I just bought some old Balkanton records. From Bulgaria. But that's traditional music. It looked pristine so I took the chance. Most Melodia records I have are good quality too, some very good, some are just ok. So, when I was there (Zagreb) in '96 I was too late.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Hm, I just bought some old Balkanton records. From Bulgaria. But that's traditional music. It looked pristine so I took the chance. Most Melodia records I have are good quality too, some very good, some are just ok. So, when I was there (Zagreb) in '96 I was too late.


 
 Balkanton is decent - but Jugoton could be great. Unfortunately, the machines in the above video have been sold : 
 http://arhiva.nacional.hr/clanak/48069/povratak-vinila-u-digitalnoj-eri
  (use online translation ) - now there is vinyl record production in Czech republic .


----------



## Redcarmoose

]eep said:


> Still off-topic, but that is not what I was pointing out. I have had a few different phonostages, including a really good all tube stage that was integrated in an integrated tube-amplifier. I have a second modified all-tube phonostage as well. And the modified Jolida is simply better. Is has lots of potential with rather simple rework. That is probably why the guy was able to sell it for a $100 more. The buyer probably knew this, you did not. That is the real irony.
> Plus that the US-distributer has raised the price considerably (and there is a lot of mayhem between the Chinese manufacturer and jolida.us who both claim ownership).






If you have rotated in different phono stages in and out of your system you truly recognize the total influence they have. Anyone here, and I mean everyone, should give 4 or 5 a try. Playing with the settings and listening for hours on end to arrive at the best combo.


Many times a friend who is selling a phono stage will let you try it for a day or two to see if the sound is an improvement in your system. I almost can't describe the change of sound a good phono stage created in my system. At times I think more important than the TT.

Phono stages can be bright, dark, slow and fast. Detailed or warm and any mixture of these characteristics you can dream of. Most of the time a listeners opinion will change over the course of a day. I was waiting and wishing for a big change with my phono stage after a day I realized it was there.


----------



## ]eep

That may all be true but I know no-one in my vicinity that has a phono-stage, let alone one worth listening to. I agree that changing the phono-stage can really improve the sound. But so can changing the phono-stage itself. This is usually a lot cheaper. I used to be dependent on my hifi dealer and had to go by his advice (which was always spot on I must say) but that is a real dependency for an addiction. Once I started deciding and soldering for myself my hobby has become a lot cheaper. And the results have gotten astronomically better. You need experience in listening and vision for what you want, but there is no substitute for modifying to taste. Most of the characteristics you picture is caused by caps. If you can find caps that are redundant (believe me there are!) you have a huge improvement at zero cost. There's no business like showbusiness, and there's no business like snowbusiness. Caps can do a really good snowjob. And there's no cap as clear as no cap. 

At the moment I can make 6 distinctly different combinations for the phono mixing tranny, opamps and tubes with all flavours. And I can switch between 2 at the turn of a knob, tranny+opams (without) or with the extra tubestage of the JD9. I can tell you that (contrary to my expectation) the tubes are not the secret ingredient of the JD9.


----------



## mark_h

Current lenco renovation/work in progress.


----------



## ]eep

Nice mark_h, TLC in action!

Talk about strange music... the 2ndH store is relocating and selling at 50% rebate. So how can I resist at €0.50 /pc? I found one of those silly/questionable/wrong folk albums. There was a lot of scribbling on the front cover and all the different handwritings cought my attention. What, why? Then I checked the back; full of autographs. I mean, really full, 8 in all. So if someone went to the trouble of collecting all of those there must be a reason for it. And on the front all sorts of best wishes (and many) in several languages, someone must have had a blast! 

So now I'm playing it.... it's recorded 'life' (and live ) and it has a great atmosphere, like Jazz at the Pawnshop but different music. And to be fair, not recorded in quite the same quality but not that far off. It has Swiss folk music, jazz, Italian etc. It has yodeling that makes you go  It's just like a one night vacation. 

I looked it up: there are several on sale on Ebay at ranging prices. And, most of them are signed. But not as many autographs as this one has. And this one is mint. Like real Swiss quality. 

not my photo

And I got another minty DGG tulips, a nice Westminster HiFi 'natural balance' (not -Gold with the freaky cover), Supraphon (Prague), Columbia-EMI 'studio-2-stereo' and a 'Jan Kool' dutch test-album for testing a stereo incl TT. A nice goodiebag again 8pc @ €4.


----------



## bbophead

Big Congrats!


----------



## Redcarmoose

]eep said:


> That may all be true but I know no-one in my vicinity that has a phono-stage, let alone one worth listening to. I agree that changing the phono-stage can really improve the sound. But so can changing the phono-stage itself. This is usually a lot cheaper. I used to be dependent on my hifi dealer and had to go by his advice (which was always spot on I must say) but that is a real dependency for an addiction. Once I started deciding and soldering for myself my hobby has become a lot cheaper. And the results have gotten astronomically better. You need experience in listening and vision for what you want, but there is no substitute for modifying to taste. Most of the characteristics you picture is caused by caps. If you can find caps that are redundant (believe me there are!) you have a huge improvement at zero cost. There's no business like showbusiness, and there's no business like snowbusiness. Caps can do a really good snowjob. And there's no cap as clear as no cap.
> 
> At the moment I can make 6 distinctly different combinations for the phono mixing tranny, opamps and tubes with all flavours. And I can switch between 2 at the turn of a knob, tranny+opams (without) or with the extra tubestage of the JD9. I can tell you that (contrary to my expectation) the tubes are not the secret ingredient of the JD9.





It seems like your able to get closer to the sound your looking for with home mods. That to me would make sense as a stage manufacture is going to try and make his product for a wide range of applications. Even with dip switches and extra add ons like a dedicated power supply you maybe can only go so far? I know really nothing about this subject even though I have been into vinyl starting in 1975. 

I tend to do trial and error change outs and look at phono stages almost as EQ systems, even though I have a feeling it is maybe much more than that.


Still we all know that a new phono stage try out has a level of luck and we are always a little suspect. They all seem to have a different amount of ground hum, and you getting out the soldering iron maybe gets you closer to perfection. If anything it gets you more control over the sound and at a lesser price. I'm all thumbs when it comes to DIY. My last big on my own experiment had me bypassing the preamp all together and trying to use the tiny volume controls on an old phono stage I had. Big mistake as at one point it reacted with a very high pitch feed back and melted the right side tweeter!


----------



## ]eep

> That to me would make sense as a stage manufacture is going to try and make his product for a wide range of applications.



That is exactly right in the case of the Jolida. It is very versatile. Too versatile in fact. It tries to everything to everybody and in the process of melding all modules together forgot to take out redundancies. Or doubles. I have seen this in many Chinese gear. In order to boast all the 'goodies' they used they forget what is important. It's not whats in there but what it does. 

Very often I find circuits that amplify alternated with attenuating resistors etc. It's like a real rollercoaster ride; up and down and up and down and up and down. So all I realy do is take it up with the downs and get rid of to many ups so that I am left with just 2 ups and one down. To be exact; in the Jolida there are 3 opamps in a row followed by 2 doubletriode tubes. For the RIAA you need an RC (an attenuating resistor in the signalpath), but not between the opamps or from opamp to tube. Nor do you need capacitors between _every_ stage. Once the DC is out it's out. And how is a cartridge making DC anyway? So replacing 4 MKT's for 2 PiO, taking out 2 resistors and one opamp (reducing one of the others), and the entire tubestage from the signalpath, gives me a deadquiet unit that has cleared up greatly and still has plenty of amplificationfactor. Without tranny on a 0.4mV MC cartridge it can almost get to the level of my dac (I guess -5dB,so I do miss dynamic range). With the tranny (that does the matching too) my phono is way louder than CD. When the dac needs volume 10 the phono needs just 5. Amplifier being just 8W 1.5 6SN7 + 300B triode. 

In hifi the simples way is usually the best way. That is why a dedicated component will perform better than a modular component. And very often the are compromises involved for various reasons other than sound.


----------



## dokken

Tesla NC500 (from Czech Republic) after restoration

  
 this model of 1990 and is grandfather Pro-ject series
 Czech turnatebles company is probably the biggest world OEM company and his name now SEV Litovel
 http://www.sev-litovel.cz/en/
 company produced turntables for another companys (Music Hall, Thorens, Rega)
 very bad video


----------



## analogsurviver

An excellent primer how to put a turntable for auction on ebay - with pictures to drool : http://www.ebay.de/itm/Pioneer-PL-7L-Japan-PL-90-USA-Turntable-Plattenspieler-Top-Zustand-/281607684255?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&n TONS of pictures inside !
  
 Here the accompanying YT video ( which will last longer than the ebay link which disapears 90 days after the end of the auction ) :


----------



## Quinto




----------



## yeahx




----------



## bbophead

Nice colors but a mystery.


----------



## yeahx

Bad camera and different lighting/angles. The color should be more like the blue in the first pic. Thought of taking one with it turned off to show the marbling.


----------



## bbophead

The mystery continues.


----------



## yeahx

If you mean the LP it's Sleepy Eyes Of Death  ‎– Dark/Horizon
  
 Turntable is a JVC L-F101
  
 Cartridge/Stylus is a mystery to me too because someone picked up the table for me and I have no manual. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
  
 edit: changed link from discogs to bandcamp because it looks like they have it.


----------



## Borbarad

Transrotor FatBob S with TMD, Transroto Konstant M1, Transrotor Phono connect to my Meridian Prime+PSU.
  
 B


----------



## analogsurviver

yeahx said:


> If you mean the LP it's Sleepy Eyes Of Death  ‎– Dark/Horizon
> 
> Turntable is a JVC L-F101
> 
> Cartridge/Stylus is a mystery to me too because someone picked up the table for me and I have no manual.


 
 Cart is an Audio Technica AT-91 (family) http://www.vinylengine.com/library/audio-technica/at91.shtml . Also rebranded godzillion times.


----------



## Eee Pee

Haven't fully come to grips with the AT cart yet.  I like it.  But I think it's doing something wonky in the upper middle.


----------



## bbophead

eee pee said:


> Haven't fully come to grips with the AT cart yet.  I like it.  But I think it's doing something wonky in the upper middle.


 

 Beautiful shots.  Has it broken in, yet?


----------



## Eee Pee

It's got some time on it.  
  
 It's like it makes a Senn 650 sound like a 600.


----------



## yeahx

A local estate sale posted on craigslist has one of those front loading Pioneer tables so if I bother going I might take a peak. Wouldn't get it even if I wasn't broke but it seems interesting. I think someone mentioned it in this thread.


----------



## yeahx

Last night just for the "fun" of it I decided to take the cartridge off the JVC and try to put it on the Technics SL 1300 to test it out for a while. It seems to work fine apart from the middle barely missing on auto start but Im guessing that has something to do with cartridge alignment? With the current headshell there is no room for adjustment anyways. I might keep it hooked up a while for something different. I do like my JVC L-F101, just too bad there is almost no info online about it.
  
 Took a pic from the worst side again just as a contrast to others in this thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I also took off the bottom last night to see about rewiring the tonearm and maybe painting the base but it looks a lot more complicated than the videos of the 1200 I watched. Bad lighting because its overcast and I don't have a light near my set up.


----------



## ]eep

Here is another one with an Audio Technica cart. It is true DIY made by Hayarobi at the 2014 Seoul Brick Pop Art Exhibition. 



It it fully working with amp and speakers.


----------



## yeahx

I think I actually posted that back before I had any tables to post and lately people have been finding it again but I never noticed the cartridge on it!


----------



## parbaked

More of an ottoman than table...


----------



## Greyson

That's just about the worst thing i've ever seen.


----------



## ]eep

That is messed up. What an idiotic way to f#ck up a $8000 chair (I want an Eames but it is just sooo expensive, and got nowhere to put it).


----------



## Greyson

]eep said:


> That is messed up. What an idiotic way to f#ck up a $8000 chair (I want an Eames but it is just sooo expensive, and got nowhere to put it).


 
  
 Looks like a knockoff. The tops of the legs arn't chromed and the leather looks cheap, plus the dimensions are off.


----------



## parbaked

]eep said:


> That is messed up. What an idiotic way to f#ck up a $8000 chair (I want an Eames but it is just sooo expensive, and got nowhere to put it).


 
 Sorry you have to pay so much there Jeep. MSRP is only $3700 in the US...but the new ones are not as nice as the vintage rosewood with down cushions...


greyson said:


> Looks like a knockoff. The tops of the legs arn't chromed and the leather looks cheap, plus the dimensions are off.


 
 I think it was a vintage Plycraft knockoff from the 70s.  No leather...just vinyl or "kunstleder" as I like to call it.


greyson said:


> That's just about the worst thing i've ever seen.


 
 It wasn't very comfy either...


----------



## alan_g




----------



## bbophead

Nice!  Looks like the real deal.


----------



## Redcarmoose

]eep said:


> Here is another one with an Audio Technica cart. It is true DIY made by Hayarobi at the 2014 Seoul Brick Pop Art Exhibition.
> 
> 
> 
> It it fully working with amp and speakers.




Legos are a pain to step on, glad he put em to good use.


----------



## Moolok

My latest turntable: Ariston Q Deck II. With Glanz MFG 310LX cartridge.
  

  

  
 I will later replace old Glanz with brand new Ortofon OM10 cartridge. Or perhaps AT95E. Glanz sounds good but it is old and since there is no more replacement parts and no real idea of its condition it's better to switch a new one.


----------



## bbophead

Very nice!  Congratulations.


----------



## analogsurviver

moolok said:


> My latest turntable: Ariston Q Deck II. With Glanz MFG 310LX cartridge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hold your horses - Glanz carts (same thing as Astatic, produced by Mitachi of Japan ) are worth searching for the replacement stylus. They are about as common as pink elephants these days. If you like the house sound, there is one currently on ebay from England http://www.ebay.de/itm/GLANZ-MFG-110EX-CART-AND-NEW-STYLUS-/351363818402?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item51ceea63a2  It is the entry level, but that "something more" provided by the Moving Flux Mitachi cart is still there. Here is another conical if you wish to stock up : http://www.ebay.de/itm/Phonograph-STYLUS-NEEDLE-ASTATIC-N1728-5d-For-MF-400-ORANGE-COLOR-/321719754831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ae7fde04f
  
 It is worth noting Glanz styli quality increases with the number  (11 trough 71, 4 models, further differentiated by the stylus fitted, making total of 8 available styli that all fit - similar with three digit models ), while with Astatic it decreases  ( 400 trough 100, 4 models ). As with everything, better models are all but gone - or when they do pop upfor sale, they command silly money. There are currently two Astatic 200H ( H denoting with headshell, otherwise BETTER than the TOTL 100/100H, equivalent of Glanz MFG 61L (Shibata stylus, EX was elliptical) on ebay at approx 175.
  
 ALL of the above is RARE .


----------



## Moolok

analogsurviver said:


> Hold your horses - Glanz carts (same thing as Astatic, produced by Mitachi of Japan ) are worth searching for the replacement stylus. They are about as common as pink elephants these days. If you like the house sound, there is one currently on ebay from England http://www.ebay.de/itm/GLANZ-MFG-110EX-CART-AND-NEW-STYLUS-/351363818402?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item51ceea63a2  It is the entry level, but that "something more" provided by the Moving Flux Mitachi cart is still there. Here is another conical if you wish to stock up : http://www.ebay.de/itm/Phonograph-STYLUS-NEEDLE-ASTATIC-N1728-5d-For-MF-400-ORANGE-COLOR-/321719754831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ae7fde04f
> 
> It is worth noting Glanz styli quality increases with the number  (11 trough 71, 4 models, further differentiated by the stylus fitted, making total of 8 available styli that all fit - similar with three digit models ), while with Astatic it decreases  ( 400 trough 100, 4 models ). As with everything, better models are all but gone - or when they do pop upfor sale, they command silly money. There are currently two Astatic 200H ( H denoting with headshell, otherwise BETTER than the TOTL 100/100H, equivalent of Glanz MFG 61L (Shibata stylus, EX was elliptical) on ebay at approx 175.
> 
> ALL of the above is RARE .


 
 Thank you for valuable information. Didin't know all that about Glanz cartridges. I'll keep my eye if some replacement stylii pops up in eBay with reasonable cost but in the meantime I'll switch for new box/needle for the sake of my Records


----------



## analogsurviver

moolok said:


> Thank you for valuable information. Didin't know all that about Glanz cartridges. I'll keep my eye if some replacement stylii pops up in eBay with reasonable cost but in the meantime I'll switch for new box/needle for the sake of my Records


 
 In your shoes, I would press the trigger on this one : http://www.ebay.de/itm/ASTATIC-MF200H-/301596832191?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46389271bf  - at least no import duties etc. They are not going to get cheaper, that is for sure...
  
 Half or so year ago, there were a few MFG 31E styli available from the USA at around 60 - but by now, they are all gone.


----------



## Moolok

analogsurviver said:


> In your shoes, I would press the trigger on this one : http://www.ebay.de/itm/ASTATIC-MF200H-/301596832191?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46389271bf  - at least no import duties etc. They are not going to get cheaper, that is for sure...
> 
> Half or so year ago, there were a few MFG 31E styli available from the USA at around 60 - but by now, they are all gone.


 
 That's way too much for my budget atm. Too bad, it looks really nice.
 EDIT: How about Tenorel? Found this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TURNTABLE-STYLUS-NEEDLE-Astatic-MF-100-MF-200-MF-300-Tenorel-2001-CARTRIDGE-/201328635545?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ee01f2e99


----------



## analogsurviver

moolok said:


> That's way too much for my budget atm. Too bad, it looks really nice.
> EDIT: How about Tenorel? Found this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TURNTABLE-STYLUS-NEEDLE-Astatic-MF-100-MF-200-MF-300-Tenorel-2001-CARTRIDGE-/201328635545?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ee01f2e99


 
 NOOOOO ! - it does not fit, it is either an error made by the seller - or intentionally misleading.
  
 This is how Glanz MFG/Astatic MF stily look like (aside from colour and cantilever/stylus differences) :
  

  
  
  
 If money is tight, no other option at the moment : http://www.ebay.de/itm/Phonograph-STYLUS-NEEDLE-ASTATIC-N1728-5d-For-MF-400-ORANGE-COLOR-/321719754831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ae7fde04f&clk_rvr_id=819247351078&rmvSB=true
  
 Better conical new stylus than old that can not be properly inspected/tested and being potentially dangerous to records.


----------



## Moolok

analogsurviver said:


> NOOOOO ! - it does not fit, it is either an error made by the seller - or intentionally misleading.
> 
> This is how Glanz MFG/Astatic MF stily look like (aside from colour and cantilever/stylus differences) :
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you for confirmation. I thought that it might be a wrong one.
 I think I put Glanz in safe place for the moment and buy that brand new Ortofon OM10 cartridge with OM10 stylus. It seems that the OM10 (or OMB10) was the factory installed cartrige in most Ariston Q Decks. So it's a safe bet in that regard.


----------



## analogsurviver

moolok said:


> Thank you for confirmation. I thought that it might be a wrong one.
> I think I put Glanz in safe place for the moment and buy that brand new Ortofon OM10 cartridge with OM10 stylus. It seems that the OM10 (or OMB10) was the factory installed cartrige in most Ariston Q Decks. So it's a safe bet in that regard.


 
 Ortofon is a good cartridge - and indeed was factory installed on many decks, Ariston included. Currently, Ortofon is selling more than 100.000 carts per year trough Pro-Ject.
  
 But - Glanz/Astatic branded Mitachi Moving Flux cartridge is one of the latest developments in phono cartridges - besides patent being from mid 70s. What it does better than the rest is hard to describe. If you like the sound of your present cart, it means it is not tooooo worn - and is unlikely you will find OM10 to be an improvement.  I have Astatic MF-100 http://www.flickriver.com/photos/7794685@N03/sets/72157615140899137/ ( the only cartridge/stylus EVER to feature UNIPIVOT BEARING FULCRUM IN ITS SUSPENSION ) - and my sample unfortunately is not nearly as good as Glanz MFG71L (its direct equivalent) I have heard years ago. I am on the lookout for the next best, but conventional fulcrum ( Astatic MF-200 or Glanz 61L ) - at a more reasonable price. Too many cartridges already - but if it was my only one, I would get that one from Denmark in a heartbeat. 
  
 Priorities...


----------



## Moolok

analogsurviver said:


> Ortofon is a good cartridge - and indeed was factory installed on many decks, Ariston included. Currently, Ortofon is selling more than 100.000 carts per year trough Pro-Ject.
> 
> But - Glanz/Astatic branded Mitachi Moving Flux cartridge is one of the latest developments in phono cartridges - besides patent being from mid 70s. What it does better than the rest is hard to describe. If you like the sound of your present cart, it means it is not tooooo worn - and is unlikely you will find OM10 to be an improvement.  I have Astatic MF-100 http://www.flickriver.com/photos/7794685@N03/sets/72157615140899137/ ( the only cartridge/stylus EVER to feature UNIPIVOT BEARING FULCRUM IN ITS SUSPENSION ) - and my sample unfortunately is not nearly as good as Glanz MFG71L (its direct equivalent) I have heard years ago. I am on the lookout for the next best, but conventional fulcrum ( Astatic MF-200 or Glanz 61L ) - at a more reasonable price. Too many cartridges already - but if it was my only one, I would get that one from Denmark in a heartbeat.
> 
> Priorities...


 
 So, let me get this straight: if I want to continue using my Glanz cartridge then the most low cost solution would be buying this: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Phonograph-STYLUS-NEEDLE-ASTATIC-N1728-5d-For-MF-400-ORANGE-COLOR-/321719754831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ae7fde04f&clk_rvr_id=819247351078&rmvSB=true&clk_rvr_id=819327962563&rmvSB=true
 It's a (good) match with my box?


----------



## analogsurviver

moolok said:


> So, let me get this straight: if I want to continue using my Glanz cartridge then the most low cost solution would be buying this: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Phonograph-STYLUS-NEEDLE-ASTATIC-N1728-5d-For-MF-400-ORANGE-COLOR-/321719754831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ae7fde04f&clk_rvr_id=819247351078&rmvSB=true&clk_rvr_id=819327962563&rmvSB=true
> It's a (good) match with my box?


 
 Yes. Unless you can locate a better model at the same or even lower price - which is quite unlikely.
  
 What do you think by "box" - a cartridge ? Preamp ? Turntable ?


----------



## Moolok

analogsurviver said:


> moolok said:
> 
> 
> > So, let me get this straight: if I want to continue using my Glanz cartridge then the most low cost solution would be buying this: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Phonograph-STYLUS-NEEDLE-ASTATIC-N1728-5d-For-MF-400-ORANGE-COLOR-/321719754831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ae7fde04f&clk_rvr_id=819247351078&rmvSB=true&clk_rvr_id=819327962563&rmvSB=true
> ...



Yes, box as a cartridge in this context. In my native language cartridge is referred sometimes as a box 
I'm tempted...


----------



## ]eep

I really wouldn't buy an OM10. I had something like that as first cart om my Dual 505-III and replacing it was my first move up. I replaced it with a Yamaha MC21 HO-MC, and boy, was that an improvement. 

The Ariston looks really nice. The arm looks serious, the table too, no frills. Worthy of a good cart.


----------



## Moolok

]eep said:


> I really wouldn't buy an OM10. I had something like that as first cart om my Dual 505-III and replacing it was my first move up. I replaced it with a Yamaha MC21 HO-MC, and boy, was that an improvement.
> 
> The Ariston looks really nice. The arm looks serious, the table too, no frills. Worthy of a good cart.


 
 Thank you.
 You and analogsurviver convinced me to try first to rejuvenate my old Glanz. So I pulled the tricker on that Astatic stylus (for MF-400 cartridge).
 The old stylus works and the cartridge sounds really nice but I did notice some sibilance on vocals which, as I understand, is probably a sign of a worn stylus.
  
 And since this is a photograph thread I'd better post a picture to break this wall of text


----------



## ]eep

Aren't we all guilty of that? 

It looks like a thoroughly vintage 80-ies 'modern' look.


----------



## Moolok

]eep said:


> It looks like a thoroughly vintage 80-ies 'modern' look.



To me it reminds a German panzer: solidly built and all angles.


----------



## analogsurviver




----------



## yeahx

Quote:


analogsurviver said:


>


 
 I saw this last week and it was late at night so I might have have laughed harder than I should have.
  
 Not sure if this is where I should put this but there is this double LP on bandcamp for $1 minimum plus $5 shipping. It's probably horrible but thought I'd let you know. 
  
 https://beamtaiyorecords.bandcamp.com/album/a-hole-year


----------



## analogsurviver

yeahx said:


> Quote:
> I saw this last week and it was late at night so I might have have laughed harder than I should have.
> 
> Not sure if this is where I should put this but there is this double LP on bandcamp for $1 minimum plus $5 shipping. It's probably horrible but thought I'd let you know.
> ...


 
 Well, I am more of a classical music guy - although for some strange reason, every 10 or so years I have a 1 day non stop heavy metal volume to the metal day. However, after some seconds of the above album, search "Mahler played by a turntable" on YT brought me here :


----------



## yeahx

analogsurviver said:


> Well, I am more of a classical music guy - although for some strange reason, every 10 or so years I have a 1 day non stop heavy metal volume to the metal day. However, after some seconds of the above album, search "Mahler played by a turntable" on YT brought me here :


 
 I'd probably buy that for $1. Yesterday I picked up a decent copy of this for pretty cheap because I didnt have any Sinatra yet.


----------



## Redcarmoose

yeahx said:


> Quote:
> I saw this last week and it was late at night so I might have have laughed harder than I should have.
> 
> Not sure if this is where I should put this but there is this double LP on bandcamp for $1 minimum plus $5 shipping. It's probably horrible but thought I'd let you know.
> ...






"Another cathartic purge via bigdumbguitar. 
Written under extreme duress & recorded under dubious circumstances using broken, outdated technology. 
Ugly."

You picked a winner!


----------



## Eee Pee

Makes me feel like a teenage skateboarder again.


----------



## Shaffer

yeahx said:


> Quote:
> I saw this last week and it was late at night so I might have have laughed harder than I should have.
> 
> Not sure if this is where I should put this but there is this double LP on bandcamp for $1 minimum plus $5 shipping. It's probably horrible but thought I'd let you know.
> ...




I ordered a copy. $6 shipped. They're a punk/hardcore/thrash band. Not sure how the double album will work. 5 minutes on each side?


----------



## yeahx

Haha mine shipped. I believe its that album and their other album because it shows a picture of both above the LP option.
  
 Woah it sold out!  I'm excited, it should be worth it for "Nine tracks of desperation recorded at home on a broken 4-track."of "desperation recorded at home on a broken 4-track.Nine tracks of desperation recorded at home on a broken 4-track.Nine tracks of desperation recorded at home on a broken 4-track.


----------



## yeahx

Another bad pic of my junk to make up for all that.


----------



## ]eep

yeahx said:


> Another bad pic of my junk to make up for all that.



Thank God you posted a pic of your recordplayer. :rolleyes:


----------



## yeahx

]eep said:


> Thank God you posted a pic of your recordplayer.


 

 Oh yeah, I just woke up so it took a second to get that. Maybe that was a bad choice of words.


----------



## Redcarmoose

yeahx said:


> Another bad pic of my junk to make up for all that.





That is far from junk, this IS junk.


----------



## Redcarmoose

I was going to leave vinyl and get serious into digital.

I went to the Chord Shop but realized the Hugo was for folks many times smarter than me.

I could not keep track of the colored lights that represented the bit rate or volume level.


----------



## bbophead

redcarmoose said:


> I was going to leave vinyl and get serious into digital.
> 
> I went to the Chord Shop but realized the Hugo was for folks many times smarter than me.
> 
> I could not keep track of the colored lights that represented the bit rate or volume level.


 

 Man, that would drive me even more insane.


----------



## Eee Pee

Hahah!  Look at all the pretty lights!  
  
  
  
  
 Oh, a shiny quarter!
  
  
 That thing is so expensive too.  Must be tough getting a light to change colors.


----------



## ]eep

At least you get the full colourspectrum of the music :rolleyes: 

I am seriously into digital. But that doesn't exclude vinyl, does it? More volume, more fun.... :rolleyes: My Ikea expedit full of vinyl + TT has a lot more volume than my 2TB 2.5" HD + 1"x3"x4" DAC + 0.5"x5"x5" computer. Oh, wait, different DAC, way bigger @ 1.5"x4"x7". And I have only purple lights. That's the upside of modifying everything yourself.


----------



## Redcarmoose

bbophead said:


> Man, that would drive me even more insane.




 


Well just get the desk-top new for 2015, looks just like the original XBox.


----------



## Redcarmoose

eee pee said:


> Hahah!  Look at all the pretty lights!
> 
> 
> 
> ...







Don't worry about the pretty lights, as they are your friend. Just relax, you may be getting sleepy and that's OK.

Remove your billfold and come toward the lights, everything is going to be fine.......................$$$$$$$$$


----------



## analogsurviver

redcarmoose said:


> I was going to leave vinyl and get serious into digital.
> 
> I went to the Chord Shop but realized the Hugo was for folks many times smarter than me.
> 
> I could not keep track of the colored lights that represented the bit rate or volume level.


 
 http://www.fed-std-595.com/
  
 Serious digital does get some using to - but it becomes as second nature as cleaning the stylus and record prior to playback. Well - just a "bit" more complicated - setting up your prefered software for playback may require some head scratching after a month or so - if you want to have some changes made. Hugo has been suggested to me several times by now, but it is too expensive. Ifi audio iDSD micro does practically the same thing at about one fifth the price.  I would like to have a side by side demo of both - using same recordings and external equipment. I have seen measurements in German Stereoplay - and Hugo does have a slihgt upper hand on the formats it can support. Micro offers faster rates yet - and has a inbuilt headphone amp, capable of driving the most inefficient headphones in history, the AKG K-1000 (my darling) - for about four hours on battery. So in performance vs cost, it runs rings around Hugo.
  
 But I would still like to hear both side by side. Preferably with some particularly hot vinyl recording ...


----------



## yeahx

Relocated and not so close up for once.


----------



## parbaked

Threw a new 2M Red on my old Rega...nice match!


----------



## bbophead

parbaked said:


> Threw a new 2M Red on my old Rega...nice match!


 
 Nice, of course.  Rega + Ortofon, it just works.


----------



## ]eep

I don't want to sound like a broken record (oh, I'm so punny ) , digital can sound very well but vinyl can draw you in to the music like no DAC can. 
I've heard several very expensive DAC's, but I still think (and know why; time domain) my modified ladder-dac sounds best. My vinyl setup is way more expensive (as if price had any bearing on performance in digital nowadays) than my digital setup. But for me that is not any reason to prefer one or the other. In my setup digital high-res sounds very close to analog in musical terms, but analog always has had the lead. 
The funny thing is that until 7 years ago my cd-player and TT were very close in price but worlds apart in performance musically (cd was quite boring). Now my TT is 5x as expensive, my digital setup 5x cheaper and yet both are way more satisfying (closer to perfection?). Mainly due to my modifying skills being very effective om digital (plus the great Chinese prices) and very superfluous on analog. I know how to set up a table but there's not much to improve on a very well executed German/Japanese precision rig with 100y+ experience. In contrast to a Chinese contraption full of promise but utterly lacking in execution, engineering or quality control. 

Digital does have its charms, especially if you collect the original artwork together with the music, partly as corverart and the booklets in comicbook art. It does have it's benefits and can be enchanting, but it still happens more often with analog than digital. Sayeth the man with a $500 digital rig and $10k analog setup. 

I still get a kick out of buying great classical music for €1 an LP. Some are 50-60 years old but sound like a frozen moment in time. Like this week a mint Dorati Eroica on Fontana label, a mono Reiner Richard Strauss. Or a Yehudi Menuhin Bach MoNo ASD big dog. Or some old Decca LXT or DGG tulips stereo.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I don't want to sound like a broken record (oh, I'm so punny
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, with digital it is in the time domain. That is why I prefer DSD over any PCM. A really good DSD recording of vinyl can sound better than the same vinyl played live with just one step lower analog rig than the DSD recording has been made with. A difference between two styli in the same range, one just above the other, is enough.
 But it is not a match to vinyl being played live if using the same analog rig for live playback or recording.
  
 You are lucky to live in a country that did have all major labels available - and what remained, is plentiful enough not to cause the prices to skyrocket. Yesterday, I had to buy 3 LPs in one of our second hand shops. At 1 EUR. All that was available at this price was outside the shop, on the pavement, in a " get rid of these ASAP" bin - records without their inner and/or outer sleeve, if lucky in (worn) outer PVC sleeves, if not - just record, without everything. As I need 3 LPs to be literally  sewn apart ( some experiment...), I placed almost no attention which music is on the records, how dirty/scratched they are, etc. I ended up with 2 inner sleeves for the Barbra Streisand's Memories ( one filled with the license printed Memories LP by Suzy, Yugoslavia - the other - surprise, surprise; just discovered as I write this - with TWO discs, one by Tolzer Sangerknaben " Weihnachten zu Haus mit Tolzer Sangerknaben" on original Philips, the other "evergreen" ( she looks almost the same as  30 years ago on her posters advertising her concerts - PRESENT day ) female singer Neda Ukraden's Hoču tebe ( I want you) from 1985 - while the third was something I did pay attention to as what is on the disc - Rimsky-Korsakov Scheherazade, Bolshoi Theatre Orchestra conducted by Melik-Paschayev, violin S. Kalinovsky on Medzunarodnaya Knyiha (forerunner of the Melodiya label from the USSR ) - in its plastic inner sleeve and totally in two parts disintegrated outer sleeve. )
  
 There are (admittedly extremely) rare LPs in that shop - reaching over 500 EUR per piece .
  
 I did place all of these LPs in the inner sleeves that got replaced by fresh ones after ultrasonic cleaning my first batch of (mainly test) records. And will perform "scout listening" with a "scout" cartridge, just to see which, if any , of these discs will be spared from being sewn apart for the experiment. Now I pray it will be the Sheherazade -  on Medzunarodnaya Knyiha, there can be absolutely first class audiophile recordings, surpassing (almost) anything from the other side of the then Iron Curtain - as well as total BS regarding sound quality. There is absolutely no BS regarding the musical performance - back then in the USSR, you were either good enough to record - or not. And Bolshoi in those days reigned unchallenged and supreme among the USSR orchestras.


----------



## Quinto

]eep said:


> .............
> 
> I still get a kick out of buying great classical music for €1 an LP. Some are 50-60 years old but sound like a frozen moment in time. Like this week a mint Dorati Eroica on Fontana label, a mono Reiner Richard Strauss. Or a Yehudi Menuhin Bach MoNo ASD big dog. Or some old Decca LXT or DGG tulips stereo.


 
 +1  big kick 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  just got these


----------



## bbophead

Great finds!


----------



## analogsurviver

quinto said:


> +1  big kick
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 All great music - enjoy !


----------



## Eee Pee

Did you know there's a reply button so you don't have to quote everything?


----------



## analogsurviver

Yes - but those pics of great album are worth repaeting.


----------



## Maverickmonk

No pics yet, but just ordered the stuff to get my Rega P2 up and running again. VTA adjustment collar, Grado Prestige Black, and the stainless stub and weight from an RB-300 arm to replace the silly plastic coated screw one on my RB-250.

 Also got a decent alignment plate coming and a digital stylus force scale. Gonna be back up and jamming in no time.


----------



## bbophead

Congrats!


----------



## Redcarmoose

maverickmonk said:


> No pics yet, but just ordered the stuff to get my Rega P2 up and running again. VTA adjustment collar, Grado Prestige Black, and the stainless stub and weight from an RB-300 arm to replace the silly plastic coated screw one on my RB-250.
> 
> 
> Also got a decent alignment plate coming and a digital stylus force scale. Gonna be back up and jamming in no time.





It's such a romantic hobby I think. Just nursing the best sound out of a turntable, an art and a science. I still have fond memories of spending whole summer days playing my parents Moody Blues records. Turntables generate an alternative reality.

Congrats!


----------



## dosley01

New to me, 30th Anniversary VPI Classic.  If you have never seen one in person, it's hard to explain how massive this thing is. 
  
 Unfortunately, the Grado Sonata will probably have to go due to hum on the first 1-3 songs.  I have a Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood and Goldring 2400 on the way to check out.


----------



## bbophead

dosley01 said:


> New to me, 30th Anniversary VPI Classic.  If you have never seen one in person, it's hard to explain how massive this thing is.
> 
> Unfortunately, the Grado Sonata will probably have to go due to hum on the first 1-3 songs.  I have a Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood and Goldring 2400 on the way to check out.


 

 Impressive.  Congratulations!  Too bad about the Grado.  What green vinyl are you playing in the pic?


----------



## dosley01

bbophead said:


> Impressive.  Congratulations!  Too bad about the Grado.  What green vinyl are you playing in the pic?


 
  
 Jerry Garcia - Compliments from RSD.


----------



## yeahx

Still waiting for my glow in the dark Prodigy for my next pic. Oops spoilers!


----------



## Redcarmoose

dosley01 said:


> New to me, 30th Anniversary VPI Classic.  If you have never seen one in person, it's hard to explain how massive this thing is.
> 
> Unfortunately, the Grado Sonata will probably have to go due to hum on the first 1-3 songs.  I have a Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood and Goldring 2400 on the way to check out.




Wow. Looks like I could get placebo affecting judgment just by watching that silver platter go round and round.

So nice. enjoy!


----------



## Eee Pee

Ignore the hum!  I really like the Sonata.


----------



## yeahx

yeahx said:


> Still waiting for my glow in the dark Prodigy for my next pic. Oops spoilers!


 

 Or not. This just came in. Sorry I will get a better camera sometime.
  


 Hohokum OST
  
 Also those 2 LPs for $1 from Bandcamp arrived today. (glad this was cheap)


----------



## bbophead

yeahx said:


> yeahx said:
> 
> 
> > Still waiting for my glow in the dark Prodigy for my next pic. Oops spoilers!
> ...


 
 That is some wild ***** vinyl!


----------



## ]eep

this is the crop of my harvest of the last 2 weeks. Really not bad. Some are quite old. One (Annie Fisher) was partly rotten on the back due to moisture but the LP was Ex. But hey, I got that one for free! I am also really pleased with the Arrau Beethoven set, Philips plum mono luxury box with hardwood spine and gold lettering. And one more quirky Westminster Gold cover (4 voices). 



And since this is a picture thread... I thought I would let the colours shine through on black vinyl. Like a clarion in rainbow colours. I really can't get more dynamic contrast out of an 8bit RGB. Not the easiest photo to take but the result is quite pleasing to me (only cropped in Photoshop, nothing else, it's pure au naturel). It's 1920x1080 so you can use it as background if you want.


Oops, I lied, I used burn to push my DAC (upper left) to the background. The white cable was just a slight bit to visible.


----------



## bbophead

NICE!  
  
 More please.


----------



## analogsurviver

dosley01 said:


> New to me, 30th Anniversary VPI Classic.  If you have never seen one in person, it's hard to explain how massive this thing is.
> 
> Unfortunately, the Grado Sonata will probably have to go due to hum on the first 1-3 songs.  I have a Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood and Goldring 2400 on the way to check out.


 
 This looks serious - congrats. VPIs are rare over here - how much does it weigh - the platter in particular ?
  
 But it is a pity they did not allow for less than optimally shielded cartridges to be used - that hum is a no-go. Sonata is such a nice sounding cartridge ... IIRC, it has been jumping from table to table at your place, wasnt' it ?


----------



## ]eep

this ok? full HD


Look close!


----------



## yeahx

Nope!


----------



## bbophead

Thanks for posting!


----------



## Redcarmoose

]eep said:


> this ok? full HD
> 
> 
> Look close!




I've been trying to get my turntable to play upside down for years with no luck. Perfect for changing songs while laying on your back.



Please tell us how you did it, and still kept the tracking force?


----------



## ]eep

> I've been trying to get my turntable to play upside down for years with no luck. Perfect for changing songs while laying on your back.



Yeah, but you never ever considered going down under, did ya mate? Even your drain will flow the other way round...

Normally that isn't that hard of your turntable does not rely on gravity to hold the cartridge to the vinyl, like my old Dual 505. Just balance it and turn the spring to the desired force. But in this case the cartridge is quite heavy. There are worse, but Kiseki is quite heavy. 
It's just a photo I had lying in wait to give it a special twist. Part of a great photo is all in the framing (or cropping in this case). This is the same photo, different cropping. More info, less intriguing. At least I think so. 


I like this one too, but it has less of a "WoW" lightburst with iridescent colour.


----------



## dosley01

analogsurviver said:


> This looks serious - congrats. VPIs are rare over here - how much does it weigh - the platter in particular ?
> 
> But it is a pity they did not allow for less than optimally shielded cartridges to be used - that hum is a no-go. Sonata is such a nice sounding cartridge ... IIRC, it has been jumping from table to table at your place, wasnt' it ?


 

 Platter =  20+ lbs,  total weight is 65lbs.
  
 Yes, the Sonata has been on a MMF7, TT15-S1, Scout and the Classic.   Even on the previous three tables it probably only has 200-250 hours of use.  This week I received the Goldring 2400 (Slightly Used) and a new Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood.  Unfortunately there is an issue with the 2400, it has a bad hum on the right channel, hopefully the seller will be cooperative.  It's too bad because it seemed to be a good match for the table, perfect weight, high output, replaceable stylus.  I spent hours troubleshooting, on both tables and arms, and it always comes back to the right channel.  I think possibly when the seller removed it, one of the leads might have come loose inside the cartridge itself.
  
 So I broke down and cracked the seal on the Virtuoso.  I haven't had any real time to listen but the two sides I did sound promising, and it's dead silent.  Can't wait to really put it through it's paces.


----------



## analogsurviver

dosley01 said:


> Platter =  20+ lbs,  total weight is 65lbs.
> 
> Yes, the Sonata has been on a MMF7, TT15-S1, Scout and the Classic.   Even on the previous three tables it probably only has 200-250 hours of use.  This week I received the Goldring 2400 (Slightly Used) and a new Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood.  Unfortunately there is an issue with the 2400, it has a bad hum on the right channel, hopefully the seller will be cooperative.  It's too bad because it seemed to be a good match for the table, perfect weight, high output, replaceable stylus.  I spent hours troubleshooting, on both tables and arms, and it always comes back to the right channel.  I think possibly when the seller removed it, one of the leads might have come loose inside the cartridge itself.
> 
> So I broke down and cracked the seal on the Virtuoso.  I haven't had any real time to listen but the two sides I did sound promising, and it's dead silent.  Can't wait to really put it through it's paces.


 
 I am not that familiar with Goldring carts, but reliable they ain't. My experience - or bad luck.
  
 Try to see if you are not experiencing some sort of ground loop. Fairly low possibility, as cart is plastic - but _just _ in case...
  
 Virtuoso Woody is a great cart - it is an OEM for CA by Audio Technica, wooden body, etc.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> this ok? full HD
> 
> 
> Look close!


 
  
 I thought you managed to take a photo of the cartridge suspension/arm mass resonance : 
  
 
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3ZN7J8l6Q64


----------



## parbaked




----------



## yeahx

analogsurviver said:


> I thought you managed to take a photo of the cartridge suspension/arm mass resonance :
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3ZN7J8l6Q64


 
 Is this a similar or the same record?


 Just saw someone selling this on craigslist nearby and thought of that video.


----------



## analogsurviver

I am not familiar with this test record, issued by McGill University Records.
  
 I have posted the best test record for testing cartridge suspension/tonearm/ cartridge effective mass resonance ( around 10 Hz. ) It is called either NAD 5120 Test Record
 (available in the West) , supporting the proper adjustment of, you guessed, the NAD 5120 turntable - which offers extremely effective and ingenious adjustments for cancelling/reducing the said resonance - or Supraphon 
  
 http://www.discogs.com/No-Artist-Testovac%C3%AD-Deska-P%C5%99enoskov%C3%A9ho-Ramene-Deska-Pro-Kontrolu-Parametr%C5%AF-Gramofon%C5%AF/release/2762156
  
 Same thing - except musical selections on both differ a bit - for those who know what these two records allow for, is this music totally and completely irrelevant.


----------



## ]eep

What it basically does is measuring the compliance of the rubber suspension of the cantilever. Since the other variables are known or measurable. But that is not all there is to setting up a TT with cartridge.


----------



## msiklvr

]eep said:


> What it basically does is measuring the compliance of the rubber suspension of the cantilever. Since the other variables are known or measurable. But that is not all there is to setting up a TT with cartridge.


 

 Amen to that!  I've been through the available resources on cartridge setup.  Mint protractor, Hi Fi news LP, Analogue LP, several others of less worthiness, USB microscope, setup procedures from Michael Fremer, etc.  As an engineer, I find all of these to be less than conclusive.   The LP's, depending on who reviews them, are not considered to be the final verdict of zenith and azimuth. 
  
 I'm trying to setup a Miyajima Kansui on a Moerch DP-8 arm.  I find the zenith setting to be really difficult as the protractors depend on visual alignment.  As the cartridge has no straight lines and the stylus is wider than the allowances of the Mint, setting the zenith perfectly is a best guess.  As for azimuth, finding the starting point is a bit of frustration.  Once the start point is determined, the HiFi New lp works well, though it would be really nice to have a solid, reliable method to dial it in without trial and error.  The Moerch requires removing the arm to make adjustments, so the fewer the better.

  
 Any suggestions are welcome.


----------



## ]eep

You must be the most patient man in the world. I'm not saying you are, but that was my suggestion. 

It might be usefull to attach a small protracting rod on top of the screws heads. That way if you set the tip at the right point you can line that out with a large visible parallel line. That will help in 2 axises.


----------



## Eee Pee

VPI has a groove in their headshell just for that very purpose.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> You must be the most patient man in the world. I'm not saying you are, but that was my suggestion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Wait with giving prizes about patience - till I post the series regarding cartridge setup ...
  
 Your advice is in principle a good one; trouble is, the cartridge can be skewed a bit either way from the oimaginary "screw heads plane ". 
  
 Second/third thing - it would only work with a geometrically perfect cartridge. That is to say less than 1% of any given production .


----------



## analogsurviver

msiklvr said:


> Amen to that!  I've been through the available resources on cartridge setup.  Mint protractor, Hi Fi news LP, Analogue LP, several others of less worthiness, USB microscope, setup procedures from Michael Fremer, etc.  As an engineer, I find all of these to be less than conclusive.   The LP's, depending on who reviews them, are not considered to be the final verdict of zenith and azimuth.
> 
> I'm trying to setup a Miyajima Kansui on a Moerch DP-8 arm.  I find the zenith setting to be really difficult as the protractors depend on visual alignment.  As the cartridge has no straight lines and the stylus is wider than the allowances of the Mint, setting the zenith perfectly is a best guess.  As for azimuth, finding the starting point is a bit of frustration.  Once the start point is determined, the HiFi New lp works well, though it would be really nice to have a solid, reliable method to dial it in without trial and error.  The Moerch requires removing the arm to make adjustments, so the fewer the better.
> 
> ...


 
 Test records and an oscilloscope. Anything else is guesswork.


----------



## msiklvr

Yes, you are right of course!  It would be oh so nice to find a means by which the rough setting could be dialed in visually with some degree of accuracy before finalizing with the scope and test record.


----------



## analogsurviver

msiklvr said:


> Yes, you are right of course!  It would be oh so nice to find a means by which the rough setting could be dialed in visually with some degree of accuracy before finalizing with the scope and test record.


 
 No go.
  
 Except in case of a perfect cartridge. What on earth is for example the very well thought out alignment gauge provided with the Shure V15V - ( or V-15VMR  - not with B suffix, basic packaging WITHOUT the  alignment gauge )
 good for - at least for azimuth - if the cartridge(s) were almost all - off ?
  
 For azimuth, you can use Fozgometer or Adjust + software from Dr. Feickert - but an oscilloscope will yield the same thing given the knowledge how to use it - AND will make certain your rig is actually working at its best - corrected for all anomalies that should never have been there in the first place - but usually are.
  
 I am really interested how precisely is the Mijajima cartridge cartridge put together in practice. Never saw one in person, but its suspension should give it an edge in performance/sound


----------



## msiklvr

The challenge is certainly the anomalies in cartridge manufacture, combined with anomalies in test LP design.  I've read good and bad about Dr. Feickert Adjust+.  It's an expensive package so it is low on the list of options.
  
 I have been using the HiFi News test lp, the Ultimate Analog Test LP and a software scope on the PC, as well as the Mint LP gauge.  Setting azimuth is relatively straight forward, but zenith is more of a challenge.  It is really difficult to clearly see the stylus with the Mint, so I use another mirror style gauge to get it close and then finalize with the Mint.  It's pretty close if not spot on, but I just don't feel completely satisfied I've got it 100%
  
 The only cartridge I have to compare to the Miyajima is a Madrigal Carnegie One.  The midrange and lows are vastly superior on the Miyajima.  Symphonic music really comes alive.  It is still in the break in stage.  Can't add to the question of how the cartridge is put together.  I can say that whatever the've done works!


----------



## analogsurviver

msiklvr said:


> The challenge is certainly the anomalies in cartridge manufacture, combined with anomalies in test LP design.  I've read good and bad about Dr. Feickert Adjust+.  It's an expensive package so it is low on the list of options.
> 
> I have been using the HiFi News test lp, the Ultimate Analog Test LP and a software scope on the PC, as well as the Mint LP gauge.  Setting azimuth is relatively straight forward, but zenith is more of a challenge.  It is really difficult to clearly see the stylus with the Mint, so I use another mirror style gauge to get it close and then finalize with the Mint.  It's pretty close if not spot on, but I just don't feel completely satisfied I've got it 100%
> 
> The only cartridge I have to compare to the Miyajima is a Madrigal Carnegie One.  The midrange and lows are vastly superior on the Miyajima.  Symphonic music really comes alive.  It is still in the break in stage.  Can't add to the question of how the cartridge is put together.  I can say that whatever the've done works!


 
 That sounds pretty good to me. You are likely within the tolerances of test records ( I have long ago stopped using them for nominally recorded signals, now I observe how accurately cartridges play their defects ...) - so it , for all practical purposes, does not get any better.
  
 Nice to hear that Miyajima works so well ! It should on paper, but getting a first hand confirmation is always nice.
  
 Enjoy spinnin'
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## ]eep

msiklvr said:


> Yes, you are right of course!  It would be oh so nice to find a means by which the rough setting could be dialed in visually with some degree of accuracy before finalizing with the scope and test record.



That is why I said attach a rod. You are right that there is play to either side but the truth is exactly in the middle. What I learned from lab-school and landsurvey (and construction and woodworking) that when you measure there are no algebraic numbers but measurements are always stochastic. Meaning; there always is a range. Between measurements, no 2 are the same. For instance if you want to check if a plane is level you measure it with a waterlevel, then turn it around and check again. The bubble is almost always a little off. But when you turn it 180 deg the error goes the other way. Same if you want to saw off a plank straight you use a square. If you want to check the square, you turn it around. Even if your plank has a slight curve you can still saw it off tangentially (= straight at the point where you saw). 

So the jist: attach the rod as I suggested, move it all the way to one side (mark it if that helps), move it all the way to the other side (mark) and then move it halfway back. This way you will have a fairly good approximation of 'straight'. Well within 1 deg. This will place the cartridge body in a fairly straight position. If the cantilever is straight, or more important, the needletip, is a matter of manufacturing accuracy. My suspicious mind tells me if they manufacture a round body on purpose they won't bother aligning it. They are simply saying:"we make round body, you expert, you use oscilloscope".


----------



## msiklvr

Jeep, I can see how the rod would work for setting azimuth, to set the cartridge body parallel with the platter.  This approach is visually less demanding than trying to view parallax with a rounded surface!  From there the azimuth can be adjusted to compensate for irregularities in the cantilever geometry via test lp and O scope.  I don't know how to make the rod work for setting zenith.
  
 The last time I tried setting zenith with the scope, it seemed really difficult to null the traces.  I went back and revisited the problem and found it is the source.  The Ultimate Analog LP, is not the ultimate.  While it does have a steady 1k hz tone, the spindle hole is not centered on the record, so the phase of the channels relative to one another vary each revolution!!  Anyone know of a technique to eliminate this issue, other than breaking the LP?   Is there an alternative LP with a pure test tone in mono? 
  
 So, it is back to the Mint tractor and eye strain.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> That is why I said attach a rod. You are right that there is play to either side but the truth is exactly in the middle. What I learned from lab-school and landsurvey (and construction and woodworking) that when you measure there are no algebraic numbers but measurements are always stochastic. Meaning; there always is a range. Between measurements, no 2 are the same. For instance if you want to check if a plane is level you measure it with a waterlevel, then turn it around and check again. The bubble is almost always a little off. But when you turn it 180 deg the error goes the other way. Same if you want to saw off a plank straight you use a square. If you want to check the square, you turn it around. Even if your plank has a slight curve you can still saw it off tangentially (= straight at the point where you saw).
> 
> So the jist: attach the rod as I suggested, move it all the way to one side (mark it if that helps), move it all the way to the other side (mark) and then move it halfway back. This way you will have a fairly good approximation of 'straight'. Well within 1 deg. This will place the cartridge body in a fairly straight position. If the cantilever is straight, or more important, the needletip, is a matter of manufacturing accuracy. My suspicious mind tells me if they manufacture a round body on purpose they won't bother aligning it. They are simply saying:"we make round body, you expert, you use oscilloscope".


 
 NOT so easy with the assumptions why the body shape of better present day carts no longer are square and right angles - it is because of breaking up any mechanical resonances - either by shape, material - or combination of the two. Here one such curvy lady : 
  

  
 and the "corpus delicti" :

  
 and something more affordable:


----------



## analogsurviver

msiklvr said:


> Jeep, I can see how the rod would work for setting azimuth, to set the cartridge body parallel with the platter.  This approach is visually less demanding than trying to view parallax with a rounded surface!  From there the azimuth can be adjusted to compensate for irregularities in the cantilever geometry via test lp and O scope.  I don't know how to make the rod work for setting zenith.
> 
> The last time I tried setting zenith with the scope, it seemed really difficult to null the traces.  I went back and revisited the problem and found it is the source.  The Ultimate Analog LP, is not the ultimate.  While it does have a steady 1k hz tone, the spindle hole is not centered on the record, so the phase of the channels relative to one another vary each revolution!!  Anyone know of a technique to eliminate this issue, other than breaking the LP?   Is there an alternative LP with a pure test tone in mono?
> 
> So, it is back to the Mint tractor and eye strain.


 
 It is travelling back in time when records were made better. Ebay is the best approximation ...


----------



## ]eep

msiklvr said:


> Jeep, I can see how the rod would work for setting azimuth, to set the cartridge body parallel with the platter.  This approach is visually less demanding than trying to view parallax with a rounded surface!  From there the azimuth can be adjusted to compensate for irregularities in the cantilever geometry via test lp and O scope.  I don't know how to make the rod work for setting zenith.
> 
> The last time I tried setting zenith with the scope, it seemed really difficult to null the traces.  I went back and revisited the problem and found it is the source.  The Ultimate Analog LP, is not the ultimate.  While it does have a steady 1k hz tone, the spindle hole is not centered on the record, so the phase of the channels relative to one another vary each revolution!!  Anyone know of a technique to eliminate this issue, other than breaking the LP?   Is there an alternative LP with a pure test tone in mono?
> 
> So, it is back to the Mint tractor and eye strain.




For zenith you would need another axis. You could use a rod that lies on top of the cartridge or under the headshell. Combined with the other rod it would form a T-shape (arm ^), or _|_ where the arm is in the downward direction. That way you set up 3 points, exactly what you need to define a plane and its normal (is that the mathematical term in English in plane-geometry?). The perpendicular line through the needletip. 

The issue with the test record is another example of tolerances in the real world. There could be a way to change the position of the hole somewhat. Look at the frequency on the scope and mark where the frequency is highest and where it is lowest. This should be where the radius is largest and smallest. If you have a small pointed hobby-knife you can cut away a small half-moon shaped chip from inside the hole (or a small round iron-file) so the hole will be just a tiny bit bigger and just a mite elongated. Now you can scoot up the test-lp just a little bit in the right direction. Measure again and see what the difference is. If needed make an arrow on the label to remember which side you must push it against the spindle. This is an easy way to fix an lp with an eccentric hole. 

Again: the more you strive for perfection, the more you notice that nothing is ever perfect. There are always tolerances. The trick is to be aware of this and use a method that will not accumulate errors but rather make them linear (distract from each other). Another example from landsurveying: if you measure a large field to set distance poles (or lampposts on a street) with a measuring tape the tape stretches under strain (linear). You need a set force to stretch it to the calibrated length. Every time you make a mark you will have a difference (measuring fault). Now if you would measure 10 poles (or lampposts) from 1 to the other (not rolling out the whole tape but the lazy way) you would add up 10 errors at the end. Every consecutive post would inherit the errors from the previous ones. But if you would roll out the whole tape and make a mark for every position every post and the total would only have 1 measuring fault's worth. Measuring is a science in itself.



analogsurviver said:


> NOT so easy with the assumptions why the body shape of better present day carts no longer are square and right angles - it is because of breaking up any mechanical resonances - either by shape, material - or combination of the two.




Yes, I was aware of that. But I didn't mention it to keep on the heart of the matter. But what is more important; I don't believe it to be true engineering science but marketing science copied from speaker design. If you manufacture a cartridge with a thin stamped body from plastic or aluminium it might just fly. But if you ground the body from a block rounding the edges will *not* reduce resonance (if any). It will merely increase resonance due to lesser stability. You do not gain stability by grinding off corners, only by leaving the inside-corners stand and so increasing wall-thickness. In vibration-reduction only 2 things help; increase structural mass or increasing damping. Ie.: keep it from happening and kill it quick. 
And to make this even less important; the force acting on the body relative to it's strength and mass are minute and almost irrelevant compared to what happens in the motor; the cantilever and suspension. The yoke needs to be strong, but the rest of the body is basically to keep the dust out. So what Lyra does is way smarter and sensible than 'cutting corners' by rounding off edges. 

What we have seen in the last decades in woodworking etc is that speaker cabinets can be more rounded off due to advances in technology. No longer big square boxes. This is actually better from and engineering standpoint because it improves dispersion and reduces baffle reflection (wavy freq resp). But speakers are big with a large radiating surface and the walls are relatively thin. What the public, high-end enthousiasts with little sense of physics, have come to expect is that big speakers with big massive hardwood panels and rounded off bevels are good. And it is. For speakers. But that does not translate to cartridges 1 on 1 (or at all really). I know only one exception to this story and that is the Decca cart in the tin can that can make music on its own. But that is a different beast entirely.

Don't get me wrong; I really like round edges and curves. They look and feel nice. But wood is not amorph, it has grain, making weak in certain directions. That is why round, turned wood is always delicate. Rounding off all edges isn't helpful to the guy setting up the TT nor does it do anything useful. Except maybe taking away the false idea that you don't need an oscilloscope with a Shibata/vd Hul etc. needle.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> For zenith you would need another axis. You could use a rod that lies on top of the cartridge or under the headshell. Combined with the other rod it would form a T-shape (arm ^), or _|_ where the arm is in the downward direction. That way you set up 3 points, exactly what you need to define a plane and its normal (is that the mathematical term in English in plane-geometry?). The perpendicular line through the needletip.
> 
> The issue with the test record is another example of tolerances in the real world. There could be a way to change the position of the hole somewhat. Look at the frequency on the scope and mark where the frequency is highest and where it is lowest. This should be where the radius is largest and smallest. If you have a small pointed hobby-knife you can cut away a small half-moon shaped chip from inside the hole (or a small round iron-file) so the hole will be just a tiny bit bigger and just a mite elongated. Now you can scoot up the test-lp just a little bit in the right direction. Measure again and see what the difference is. If needed make an arrow on the label to remember which side you must push it against the spindle. This is an easy way to fix an lp with an eccentric hole.
> 
> ...


 
 I agree with all of the above.
  
 Now, the biggest joke in cartridge design history regarding body resonances : 
  
  

  
  
 remedied by this :


----------



## ]eep

Eh, yes. My one exception. I was still writing/editing... I know all about the trouble with that beast. Or setting it up on a unipivot arm.


----------



## yeahx

Oh good some pictures. All those words look scary so I just skipped them.


----------



## bbophead

yeahx said:


> Oh good some pictures. All those words look scary so I just skipped them.


 

 Like.


----------



## Maverickmonk

I think I spent too much money on my Rega 2. Lots of new parts today, time to finally get it set up. Grado Prestige Black, VTA adjustment mount, SS stub and weight off the RB300 tonearm. Honestly I might as well upgrade the subplatter and platter next. After that there really won't be much left of this that is still an R2 other than the motor and the RB200 arm.


----------



## Moolok

Here's my old Glanz cartidge with Astatic stylus.
  

  
 I was about to replace the Glanz cartridge with Ortofon OM10 but I got some hints from here and decided to try Astatic stylus. It fits perfectly and works even better than the old original Glanz stylus which I think was quite worn out.


----------



## yeahx

I know nothing about this stuff but I had a strong feeling that was the better way to go. Looks great too!


----------



## Eee Pee

Yeah, good looking picture.


----------



## parbaked

yeahx said:


> Oh good some pictures. All those words look scary so I just skipped them.


 
 ^+1


----------



## bbophead

Nice.  Maybe a Rega and maybe a VTL preamp.  Just a guess.


----------



## ]eep

I guess.. 'that dog does hunt'


----------



## ]eep

And this dog keeps hunting too. Or as we say, a stray dog always catches something. I'm really happy with the cream-gold Electrola and the Columbia Piaf. 
 
And another place a whole collection of 10" classical records, almost all mono (handwritten on the front :rolleyes in very good shape and very clean. And in yet another place I found a mint DGG tulips box, an Epic and an EMI 10" (shaded dog), but those smell kind of funky. They had been stored in a moist (brick) shed for a while. The Dvorak 5 is srting to fall apart in the corner because of this. 

And I found, yet another, minty testrecord. So I decided to make a picture of the whole collection. The last one was the one top right, don't mind lp #2, the test lp is very good. The Decca testalbum I found last week and is very nice. The 'Stereotest' (bottom right by Jan Kool) is very well regarded. But all of them can be a big help in setting up the system and TT in particular. The Hifi-News I bought at top $ price, the rest was all €1. I just bought them all to be able to help someone out, maybe later.


----------



## msiklvr

Nice find!  Do you find one of the test records to stand out from the others in terms of setup?


----------



## bbophead

Great stuff!  Big fan of EMI period Fischer-Dieskau.


----------



## analogsurviver

msiklvr said:


> Nice find!  Do you find one of the test records to stand out from the others in terms of setup?


 
 The holy grail is JVC TRS 1007 and the rest from this series, followed by the CBS STR series.
  
 There is a catch 22, though - one particular evening on ebay last year, I was offering total in excess of 1K for three discs I was after -  yet could not spend a dime. Whatever the amount , I got outbid in the last second (or less, obviously a bidding bot with unlimited funds ) - and my offer was more than twice higher than  the offer
 of the honorary mention 3rd person.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> And this dog keeps hunting too. Or as we say, a stray dog always catches something. I'm really happy with the cream-gold Electrola and the Columbia Piaf.
> 
> And another place a whole collection of 10" classical records, almost all mono (handwritten on the front
> 
> ...


 
 .....shall be out of window....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 !


----------



## Eee Pee

Spoiler tags at least, maybe? Delete some stuff? C'mon mang!


----------



## yeahx




----------



## analogsurviver

eee pee said:


> Spoiler tags at least, maybe? Delete some stuff? C'mon mang!


 
 It was an internal joke, understandable to all that ever heard the Decca test record pictured to the right of the HFN disk 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## ]eep

I still don't get it.  I will give the Decca a spin then. 

But nonetheless, Analogsurviver, you could try to edit what you quote to be more clear about what you are aiming at. Especially in a photo-thread it's not funny to see large post continually integrally quoted. It's not that difficult or time-consuming, just a matter of discipline.

My preferred test-record is... none at all.  They always manage to depress me with what my just acquired $$$$ cartridge won't do. One useful feature is a disc with a blank spot (grooveless) to set antiskating.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I still don't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Try this (same from the Decca disc...) : ....That's what we mean by - separation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ! ( not to mention feather dropping 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )
  
 (all of the above is meant to lure out jeep (who is not a car, I know ! ) into actually listening to this funny test record from Decca.
*I HAVE JUST CHECKED FOR THE DECCA RECORD IN JEEP'S POST - IT IS A DUTCH VERSION I AM NOT AWARE OF !!! Mine says How to give yourself a stereo check out " *http://www.discogs.com/No-Artist-How-To-Give-Yourself-A-Stereo-Check-Out/release/630400  
 And speaks in proper English, witty, funny, creates good laugh upon the first hearing.
 It really is infested with British humour - but wittingly illustrates the capabilities and limitations in phono playback , without having to resort to real test records and oscilloscope. It does provide for a reasonably good setup - at least you're not going to ruin your records if your equipment does well on it. And bonus is a really good recording (excerpt ? ) of Kodaly's Jarry Janos suite.
  
 I have amassed enough test records to test to the limit any cartridge - and my "torture course" is nothing any manufacturer would ever like to see published. But there are ( 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 were, used to be, once upon a time,.., 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) cartridges that would, although $$$$ then and even more so today, not depress you on decent test records.
  
 Recently, a NOS sample of Shure V15VMR ( manufactured in the USA, not  later production from Mexico, with serial number on the STYLUS (as it should be, not just generic type designation ), signed frequency response and channel separation report ) sold for over 1000 EUR (1045 IIRC ) on ebay - it is one of the candidates not to depress one with its performance on test records. And I did manage to get the  V15VMR sounding practically indistinguishable from  very good MCs - unfortunately, no funds for such things at the moment, even if and when I am fully aware of the quality and value.
  
 The use of the blank record for antiskating is only good for linear tracking arms - it should not skate anywhere - BUT IT IS INAPPROPRIATE for pivoted arms. It can be used to establish neutral starting point - otherwise,  different styli shapes (and sometimes different suspensions ! ) require more or less antiskating for proper tracking of highly modulated discs than established by a blank grooveles test record method.


----------



## ]eep

> It can be used to establish neutral starting point - otherwise, different styli shapes (and sometimes different suspensions ! ) require more or less antiskating for proper tracking of highly modulated discs than established by a blank grooveles test record method.



See, that's what you get from watching youtube tutorials by some young DJ who thinks he knows vinyl (and worships the SL1200 as the end all and be all of TT's)...  I know that it isn't that simple. But it seemed so temptingly simple with the grooveless test.
It is a matter of geometrics and force. The force being the drag on the needletip. And that is different on round, elliptical or hyperelliptical needles. 



> Q: Which relative do you visit on Record Store Day? A: Auntie Skate.


----------



## Moolok

Today I scored my first colored vinyl record from a goodwill store: Herman Brood and His Wild Romance "Shpritsz" (1978).






It's so pretty. And it's a good album also. Sounds a bit like delta rock from southern states although it's a Dutch band  
And it even came with a (black) bonus LP: 'Herman Brood Live'. All this for 2 euros. 

A nice excuse to post a picture


----------



## bbophead

Thanks for posting a picture of your turntable and the nice green record.


----------



## floydfan33

SL-1200Mk2 with Ortofon OM30


----------



## bbophead

Good one!  Looks like we're back on track with this thread.
  
 Nothing fancy but if you like Brazilian jazz ...........


----------



## ]eep

moolok said:


> Today I scored my first colored vinyl record from a goodwill store: Herman Brood and His Wild Romance "Shpritsz" (1978). It's so pretty. And it's a good album also. Sounds a bit like delta rock from southern states although it's a Dutch band
> And it even came with a (black) bonus LP: 'Herman Brood Live'. All this for 2 euros.
> 
> A nice excuse to post a picture




Never would have thought to see Herman Brood (pr. Bro'd) here, and from Suomi! He was one archetypal rocker. He was a famous painter as well. Gave the owner of a museum exhibiting his paintings a near heart-attack when he took a spraycan out of his leather jacket and started 'reworking' one of his own paintings. "What the hell are you doing?!!!" "Well, it's my painting and I don't think it's quite finished." He didn't get very old though (depressed, took a nosedive off a highrise). 

No excuse necessary to post pictures.

Edit:
The Decca testrecord is quite fun to listen to actually. Even in Dutch the Britisch humour seeps through. The grooveless part is driving me crazy though. :mad: No matter what force I set it just races to the spindle like no time to waste. And, ehm.... I got L+R switched somehow and never noticed it. :redface:


----------



## Moolok

]eep said:


> moolok said:
> 
> 
> > Today I scored my first colored vinyl record from a goodwill store: Herman Brood and His Wild Romance "Shpritsz" (1978). It's so pretty. And it's a good album also. Sounds a bit like delta rock from southern states although it's a Dutch band
> ...



Hehe, it's a small planet after all


----------



## ]eep

I got the joke, said the idiot... duh. :rolleyes: The Decca testrecord has some recognizable real life sounds to test the realism of your system. Introduced by a badly tuned piano that gets thrown out of the window... 

What I also noticed is that my Dutch version has a rather discernable 50Hz hum on the record and some tape anomalies. I guess that makes it a real Decca then...


----------



## Quinto

]eep said:


> Never would have thought to see Herman Brood (pr. Bro'd) here, and from Suomi! He was one archetypal rocker. He was a famous painter as well. Gave the owner of a museum exhibiting his paintings a near heart-attack when he took a spraycan out of his leather jacket and started 'reworking' one of his own paintings. "What the hell are you doing?!!!" "Well, it's my painting and I don't think it's quite finished."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I even have a 'Brood' trommel


----------



## yeahx

Love this guys videos.


----------



## bbophead

For a moment I thought he was singing I wanna B3.  I'm goin' Hell yeah.


----------



## ]eep

Here is an article I wanted to share (but forgot). So here it is: Why vinyl hype is destroying the record. As the famous Johan Cruijff said: "every disadvantage has it's advantage", or the advantage of being the underdog. But now the major label are at it again with the same greed.



> The introduction of the CD at the beginning of the 1980s was a self-made economic miracle. The development of the new format was supposed to pay for itself as soon as possible, so the silver discs were sold at highly inflated prices in the early years. Thanks to “digital”, back then the magic word, *record companies could sell their entire back catalog a second time* and with alleged better sound, no scratches, longer playing times (with bonus tracks!) and in a smaller, more practical format.
> 
> There was a gold rush at Sony and the other majors, and it’s hard to shake the feeling that the *labels are trying to sell their archive a third time*, this time to middle-aged buyers who can remember buying vinyl, naturally switched over to the CD, sold or threw away their old vinyl and aren’t completely happy with streaming today. A look at the vinyl section of a large Berlin store proves the shelves are full of reissues of old titles, mostly from major labels.
> 
> If this is the case – and the pressing plants are denying it – it would mean that the majors are attempting to buy their way into an industry that they played a significant role in destroying. And they are attempting once again to starve the indie labels, the very labels that never gave up on vinyl.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Here is an article I wanted to share (but forgot). So here it is: Why vinyl hype is destroying the record. As the famous Johan Cruijff said: "every disadvantage has it's advantage", or the advantage of being the underdog. But now the major label are at it again with the same greed.


 
 So very true.


----------



## Rhino73

Nothing new, really. Just ask Pink Floyd and Star Wars fans about special editions, rare editions, limited special editions, previously unreleased digital remasters... You get the idea.


----------



## Moolok

And now something completely different:


----------



## ]eep

That is a bit (much) contradictory to the article. 

Expense? What expense? I've bought 1000 lp's last 2 years (approximately) that cost me (be honest now... Ebay is sneaky) €2000, sold a bunch of doubles for €500, so €1,500. That would have cost me otherwise €15,000 (being modest at €15/release). So even with the expense of a 'new' TT and high-end cart and the record cleaner I still consider that a bargain. And inconvenience... as if a skipping cd is convenient... or a stampcollection. Or a pet. Or watching the brainlaundrymachine every evening. Real men have a hobby, not out of convenience but to get away from the wife. 

Here another pic of the cart I once got thrown in for free (packaging is from my Dynavector). If you never do anything you will never get lucky.


----------



## Moolok

]eep said:


> That is a bit (much) contradictory to the article.



The picture I posted wasn't meant to be as a comment to the article. I just thought it is a funny picture describing how some people might see the turntable and vinyl hobby and people who does it. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## ]eep

I got that.  But funny pictures tend to strike a certain nerve where people know they're making excuses for what they know is kind of unreasonable. And this cartoon shows exactly (again) how the record industry pushed the cd by emphasizing precisely the wrong issue. Related to the article, I see it as a false propaganda of them to get us sheeple to buy the same stuff 3rd time over again. Buy some new stuff [insert rude exclamation of your own preference here]. 

I have seen it al happen, and I have always maintained the position that vinyl just gives more musical enjoyment though better sound quality. You don't want to know how many odd looks, remarks and ridicule I got in over 30 years. Like I have a screw loose or something. Just like the comment in the cartoon. That's why I don't like the cartoon. It really irritates me in a sore spot.


----------



## bbophead

I thought it was funny.  It only hurts when I laugh.


----------



## Moolok

]eep said:


> I have always maintained the position that vinyl just gives more musical enjoyment though better sound quality. You don't want to know how many odd looks, remarks and ridicule I got in over 30 years. Like I have a screw loose or something. Just like the comment in the cartoon.



I know that feeling: some of my friends, relatives and co-workers found it weird why anyone still wants to continue (or return to) using vinyl when we have The Internet, Spotify and YouTube now.


----------



## Seamaster

A 35 plus lbs of paper weight has been on my desk for over a year, I have not figured out how to use it yet!


----------



## Moolok

seamaster said:


> A 35 plus lbs of paper weight has been on my desk for over a year, I have not figured out how to use it yet!



That's a lot of buttons for a turntable  My player has just one button which I never use since I don't have any 45 rpm records. 
Have you looked Vinylengine for manual?


----------



## yeahx

seamaster said:


> A 35 plus lbs of paper weight has been on my desk for over a year, I have not figured out how to use it yet!


 
  
 You just put the paper under it so they don't get blown around or fall off the desk.


----------



## ]eep

I think the Chemical Brothers made the manual...



And this is what's in it...


But you probably have to do this first, after plugging it in of course.


----------



## msiklvr

analogsurviver said:


> The holy grail is JVC TRS 1007 and the rest from this series, followed by the CBS STR series.
> 
> There is a catch 22, though - one particular evening on ebay last year, I was offering total in excess of 1K for three discs I was after -  yet could not spend a dime. Whatever the amount , I got outbid in the last second (or less, obviously a bidding bot with unlimited funds ) - and my offer was more than twice higher than  the offer
> of the honorary mention 3rd person.


 

 Now I know maybe why your moniker!  Serious investment.


----------



## cattlethief

Grabbed this Sony PS-X4 off Gumtree yesterday for £10 the guy was about to fling it in the skip it had been on for 2 weeks without a bite,scrubbed it up and replaced the cartridge(m11 Boron)from my Pioneer PL-112D until a new AT arrives,sounds better than my Rega RP1,its missing a foot but stays steady on three nearly 40 years old and a survivor,not bad for the price of a curry! 11kg 3 footed tank!!


----------



## ]eep

You cleaned it up nicely. Normally 3 feet are enough. But you can always put some better feet under it. Shame about the double scratch on the front.


----------



## Moolok

Congratulations. Nice find and good job.


----------



## cattlethief

]eep said:


> You cleaned it up nicely. Normally 3 feet are enough. But you can always put some better feet under it. Shame about the double scratch on the front.




Any other tables out there with similar feet? Any thoughts on how to restore the scratches,this is defo a keeper,after saving it from the crusher!


----------



## analogsurviver

cattlethief said:


> Any other tables out there with similar feet? Any thoughts on how to restore the scratches,this is defo a keeper,after saving it from the crusher!


 
 Restoring the scratches unfortunately will lead you to the abandoned hobby of mine - 
 https://www.google.si/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=plastic%20modelling%20forums


----------



## ]eep

analogsurviver said:


> Restoring the scratches unfortunately will lead you to the abandoned hobby of mine -



Same here.  One hobby that will teach you patience and striving for perfection with a steady hand. 

Just try to find some paint in the same colour. Or you will have to redo the whole cabinet.


----------



## Skylab

Playing Alabama Shakes


----------



## bbophead

Love the pic.  I guess that's the VPI?


----------



## Skylab

bbophead said:


> Love the pic.  I guess that's the VPI?




Yup, VPI ScoutMaster, JMW 9 tone arm, Benz LP-S MR LOMC cartridge. The Alabama Shakes album sounds terrific!


----------



## cattlethief

Scratches covered up, new AT95E fitted,dust cover polished with Meguiars and cool tunes from '78


----------



## bbophead

Great looking/great job!
  
 I see you use a lot of isolation between the TT and the speaker.  A must, to keep the bass out.  Amazing!


----------



## ]eep

LOL. That was the other way to cover up the scratches. I was about to suggest a beautiful colored TMNT band-aid.  
And good choice of music! David Sylvian still undercover...

Skylab; awesome picture (and TT).


----------



## Bob A (SD)

George Merrill modified The AR Turntable with Sumiko Premier MMT tonearm, VTA-16 base, and Premier PIB-1 phono interface box.
  
 [Mods: Merrill acrylic subchassis/tonearm board, upgraded high torque AC motor with Foucault shield, inner platter balanced and lead coated, new spindle, bearings and oil well, new springs. From Merrill/Scillia Research an acrylic platter with a Whitacre copolymer ring available.]
  
 The table is supported by Immedia Finite Elemente/Ceraball isolation feet which sit on a 23 3/4' x 15 3/4' slab of polished Brazilian granite in turn resting on a set of MapleShade IsoBlocks, all on a Target VW1 Pro wall mount turntable shelf.
  
 Denon DL-304 (0.19mV @ 1.2g) & Denon DL-103D (0.28mV @ 1.5g) low output moving coil cartridges in Orsonic AV-1 anti-vibration and Sumiko HS12 headshells; Extremephono stylus cleaner; AuralThrills / VanDenHul D501 cable or PIB-1 w/HomeGrownAudio Super Silvers; 592g SC-101 spindle weight; Disc Doctor and Nagaoka CL-152 vinyl cleaners; Audioquest anti-static brush; Herbie's HAL-O Jr tonearm dampers.
  
 I'm using step up transformers for my low output moving coil cartridges, currently running Cinemag CMQEE-3440As. This also gives me some additional gain over the ~60dB or so the Odyssey Tempest MC stage provides. I find the HomeGrownAudio Super Silvers less veiled but somewhat brighter than the Aural Thrills/VanDenHul phono cable. I also found the Whitacre copolymer ring to take a bit too much of the edge off the treble registers for my liking.


----------



## yeahx

Just in time. Finally got a better camera!
  


 Need to learn how to use it though. Thought I had some better shots.


----------



## Moolok

yeahx said:


> Just in time. Finally got a better camera!
> 
> 
> 
> Need to learn how to use it though. Thought I had some better shots.



Nice picture :thumbup:


----------



## yeahx

moolok said:


> Nice picture :thumbup:


 

 Thanks!


----------



## analogsurviver

yeahx said:


> Thanks!


 
 Awaiting the pic of-you-know-what 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...


----------



## analogsurviver

bob a (sd) said:


> George Merrill modified The AR Turntable with Sumiko Premier MMT tonearm, VTA-16 base, and Premier PIB-1 phono interface box.
> 
> [Mods: Merrill acrylic subchassis/tonearm board, upgraded high torque AC motor with Foucault shield, inner platter balanced and lead coated, new spindle, bearings and oil well, new springs. From Merrill/Scillia Research an acrylic platter with a Whitacre copolymer ring available.]
> 
> ...


 
 Nice and VERY carefully chosen setup - pumping into some Maggies ?


----------



## ]eep

yeahx said:


> Just in time. Finally got a better camera!
> 
> Need to learn how to use it though. Thought I had some better shots.




Try one of these...


----------



## Bob A (SD)

analogsurviver said:


> Nice and VERY carefully chosen setup - pumping into some Maggies ?


 
  
 Thanks!    Modified MGIIIa's, bi-amped and augmented with a 18" subwoofer.  The later shakes the floors and walls which is why I've had to do so much to isolate the turntable.  BTW the Target wall mount is also coupled to the equipment rack with blocks of high density foam which took the last vestiges of vibration completely away   You can see them between the Target and the granite.
  
 Also there's a link in the last line of my signature that will take you to a complete description of my setups.


----------



## ]eep

Wow Bob A, that is a lot of gear. A bit to much for my liking. And I already have to much in my livingroom. It makes me wonder what your real hobby is; vintage audio gear or music. That's not meant as a put-down, just wondering. 

I was thinking maybe Ill try an old reel-to-reel since there are many comparably cheap tapes of very expensive lp's for sale. But they are so big and cumbersome. I value visual aesthetics, a hodge-podge of gear does not agree with that. And a big R2R certainly does not help at all. 
Yours looks like there is constantly someone looking at you like :eek:


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Wow Bob A, that is a lot of gear. A bit to much for my liking. And I already have to much in my livingroom. It makes me wonder what your real hobby is; vintage audio gear or music. That's not meant as a put-down, just wondering.
> 
> I was thinking maybe Ill try an old reel-to-reel since there are many comparably cheap tapes of very expensive lp's for sale. But they are so big and cumbersome. I value visual aesthetics, a hodge-podge of gear does not agree with that. And a big R2R certainly does not help at all.
> Yours looks like there is constantly someone looking at you like


 
 I would ADORE if the Tandberg TD20 A would 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 at me ... - one of the very best R2Rs ever made.


----------



## Bob A (SD)

]eep said:


> Wow Bob A, that is a lot of gear. A bit to much for my liking. And I already have to much in my livingroom. It makes me wonder what your real hobby is; vintage audio gear or music. That's not meant as a put-down, just wondering.





> I value visual aesthetics....
> 
> Yours looks like there is constantly someone looking at you like


 
  
 There is equipment in that rack that dates from 1973 which is indicative of the expanding / tweaking I've done over the years.  I always sought the best bang for the buck above a certain performance level and then did my best to keep the equipment humming over the years.  Obviously I enjoy the heck out of music.  You can classify all this however you see fit    BTW I'm also a retired empty nester which also accounts for the compete lack of WAF (wife approval factor) to my setup and the lack of big ticket current gear!
  
 Here's to your visual asthetics 

  
  
 No clue what you're trying to say with that last sentence....


----------



## ]eep

Well, it's a different matter if it's all your own gear from back in the day and still working. That only merits respect. But there are people who buy all sorts of old nostalgic gear and claim it's the best there is (just for bragging rights or w/e). Me, I have my own WAF built in. In the hope still being able to snag a nice girl.  Looks pretty cozy though.

You don't see the :eek: likeness in the r2r deck? The reels look just like 2 owl-eyes watching you.


----------



## yeahx

I should just can a bunch of these for times like these so I have them handy.


----------



## yeahx

Have you guys watched any videos by this guy on youtube? Some are about crazy vinyl releases while others are just interesting. There are even a few funny ones.
  
 https://www.youtube.com/user/ArtsyFartsyTimo/videos


----------



## Eee Pee

Totally cool.


----------



## wellers73

Nothing special, except for the music:


----------



## bbophead

wellers73 said:


> Nothing special, except for the music:


 
 The pic is special, love Rega simplicity.  And, I've loved that album for a really long time. Thanks for posting.


----------



## hifihead

Pro-ject Debut Carbon with Acryl It platter and Denon dl-103 low output moving coil cartridge.


----------



## bbophead

Nice lookin' table!
  
 Congratulations.


----------



## ]eep

Those are some hard bangin' bucks! And a nice looking 'table. Just wondering what you use for MC amping... and what makes you think you can spin that record in broad daylight? 

That white Rega might be humble, but it looks very nice. I think it looks special. Any turntable is special (as long as it isn't silver painted plastic), especially a beautiful white one. Or blue FTM.


----------



## analogsurviver

While browsing ebay, I stumbled upon this prototype in auction today for couple more hours:
  
 http://www.ebay.de/itm/High-End-Design-Prototyp-Plattenspieler-auf-Pro-Ject-Debut-III-Basis/331574378373?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140107083420%26meid%3D9398bc715d41444c8ef5c224926dd156%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D10%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D161728985897


----------



## ]eep

We have a nice saying for projects like that: "he's heard the bell ringing but doesn't know where the clapper hangs" (from the country that brought you Louis van Gaal ). Heard about the thing but doesn't know how to make it work or why it rings. The felt pads isolate vibrations in the vinyl (that's why I don't like Linn/Rega etc sound) and the star earthing direct the -none present- vibrations to the cheap axis where the real vibrations from the vinyl end up anyway. Then carrying it over via a flimsy bridge to the armbase. And then the weights on the end of the thin carbon extrusions. That is worse than a tuningfork. If you think a platter should look like this than don't isolate with felt pads but couple it with a clamp. 

Maybe the man knows about machining carbon-composit, but he does not appear to know anything about the basics of statica/dynamica (engineering calculus). For bending strength you need height/thickness, which works to the power of 3 (moment of inertia in a solid is 1/12.b.h^3) It looks nice to the layman, but to me it looks like an exercise in futility. 

I just keep thinking: "Why?" :confused_face_2:


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> We have a nice saying for projects like that: "he's heard the bell ringing but doesn't know where the clapper hangs" (from the country that brought you Louis van Gaal
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Correct.
  
 I merely posted it as "interesting" pics - one would need one hell of a lot more carbon fibre (thickness...) to make TT from.


----------



## bbophead

Thanks for the pic.


----------



## msiklvr

I found these posts on Micro-Seiki on another site.  Great pictures and interesting write up.
  
 http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?17789-Reference-Turntable-The-Step-Beyond-Micro-Seiki


----------



## FlacFan

msiklvr said:


> I found these posts on Micro-Seiki on another site.  Great pictures and interesting write up.
> 
> http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?17789-Reference-Turntable-The-Step-Beyond-Micro-Seiki


 
 You beat me to it....
  
 Took me a while to get through this thread and just yesterday I was thinking to break my Micro DQX-1000 (1st in the photos from your link) out of storage and set it up for photos. Thinking of selling it....
  
 Next couple of days I'll post pics here....
  
 Cheers.


----------



## msiklvr

I would love to see it.  Always been a fan of MS, just never the opportunity to own or even listen to one.  Beautiful machine.


----------



## msiklvr

Nice system!  How do you like the Odyssey?  Is it quiet?


----------



## Polerianate

Loving my new Pro-Ject RPM 1 Carbon. 




 Sorry, don't have enough posts to upload any pictures. Would be really appreciated if someone could tell me some alternative ways of uploading photos without using imgur link.


----------



## penmarker

polerianate said:


> Loving my new Pro-Ject RPM 1 Carbon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Here you go 
  

  
 Its okay, just keep posting until you have enough posts then you're good to go! Cheers


----------



## Depechetraff

My beloved Michell Gyrodec w/ RB300 and Benz H20


----------



## bbophead

Fine stuff!  Thanks for posting the good pics.


----------



## Eee Pee

Great pictures!


----------



## Silent One

Really diggin' da shot of that Benzo!


----------



## analogsurviver

Linn has each day a special deal with a substantial discount; and today it is not GBs, but 180g of Dunedin Consort's Requiem by Mozart :
  
 http://www.linnrecords.com/recording-mozart-requiem-lp.aspx?utm_source=Linn+Email&utm_campaign=5d00c18163-LinnRecords_DOTDJuly2015DAY9&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_517fad5333-5d00c18163-278937253


----------



## Bob A (SD)

msiklvr said:


> Nice system!  How do you like the Odyssey?  Is it quiet?


 
 Yes, very much so.  Plenty of amps available for my speakers too


----------



## analogsurviver

Not a great picture, but a great auction for a sleeper TT :
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/141714019907?rmvSB=true
  
 These Onkyo models  (in the order of desirability from lowest to highest: CP-1055F. CP-1057F, CP-1055F II ) can be turned into a very very good performing tables. Not too easy to do, not totally without expense - yet one hell of a lot more value than say Tecnics SL-1200. Its greater limitation : accepts only very shallow cartridges, as it does not have arm height/VTA/SRA adjustment - and the only course to "adjust" this is the thickness of the record mat. It is also not suitable for LOMC cartridges - as most DDs, the electrical noise gets induced in the cartridge in the innermost grooves, where cart comes closest to the motor. Best results are obtained by well shielded MM carts, such as Ortofon, Audio Technica, Shure, etc. Remember - SHALLOW carts ( currently the only ones in production I know of are Rega MM carts, which are not exactly the cream of the crop ) : Ortofon FF, VMS, M20 series vintage carts are among those easiest "available". The table was originally fitted also with Ortofon FF15MKII cart - but the VMS20EMKII would be quite an improvement. Low mass arm allows for the use of a cart with such high compliance - and anyone willing to go for this cart with NOS stylus will learn pretty quickly that it was NOT only progress from say, mid 70s till now in phono department... - there is a reason why VMS20EMKII is still in such demand, many decades after its discontinuation by the manufacturer. 
  
 Repeat, not for somebody with two left hands, but I will be posting how to get decent result from this vintage deck. Contrary to mfr description/specs, this thing needs a VERY stable/quiet support in order to perform best - so you have to figure in the cost of the support a la Isonoe feet ( Direct Drive TTs DO NOT LIKE too compliant supports, they go berserk if the support can "rotate" in the sense of the turning of the platter - such as typical spring suspended subchassis - and are therefore more suited to high mass approach ). 
  
 This one has a very decent Signet cart fitted (Signet used to be "better" brand for top Audio Technica products in US back in the day ) - only question is the condition of the stylus. Current production AT styli might or may (not) fit - not familiar with this particular Signet cart and its compatibility with current ATs. Signet styli are extremely hard to come by and if and when they do turn up for sale, they command high prices.


----------



## Eee Pee

You must not realize how many times you say you're going to post something but never do?


----------



## Shaffer

Exactly, where is a VMS20EMKII in high demand?

I had an Onkyo 'table just like the one for sale. It's a POS. I appreciate your desire to help people, but some of what you post is, well, lacking a foundation in reality.


----------



## analogsurviver

eee pee said:


> You must not realize how many times you say you're going to post something but never do?


 
 Yes, I do. It is connected with properly presenting the things.
  
 This TT , all its pros and cons, how to remove most, if not all of its cons, will be presented with pics, videos, measurements, audio - you name it - better than anything that went on before. It would be almost as good as being next to me and watching me doing it.
  
 I had to gather the hardware and software to be able to do so, in itself quite an undertaking. Now, with most of required in place, I hope to have time during the _*usually *_dead season for recordings in summer - which this year somehow does not come. Which is a good thing - as it is not my hobby, but the way to make a living.


----------



## analogsurviver

shaffer said:


> Exactly, where is a VMS20EMKII in high demand?
> 
> I had an Onkyo 'table just like the one for sale. It's a POS. I appreciate your desire to help people, but some of what you post is, well, lacking a foundation in reality.


 
 Have you ever heard VMS20EMKII on a good TT ? Into an optimised electrical load phono input ? In an arm that is not too massive to let it sing ? Against a MC that has to track at 2 grams ? With TWO new/mint pressings of the same LP, able to do A/B switching ? I did - the only thing I did not do (yet) is level matching to within 0.1 dB @1 kHz, as this would require at least one additional preamp in the chain. But I can do that too.
  
 I agree Onkyo in its stock form is a POS - but then again, so are most of the TTs from the era, Thorens and Linn included - only a tiny bit better designed. With basically the very same flaws; they are FAR from being correct, and you can easily include the biggest Thorens models in this group - not only the comparatively lowly Linn.
  
 Except that current manufacturers will not tell a single thing what makes a TT really tick - but will sell you the table at 10 to 100 times the price of a Thorens/Linn. 
  
 It is ALL about the economics/profit - whether we like it or not. Fact is that "metal pressed" vintage TTs can be modified into serious tables by a dedicated DIY-er - and if there is a decent DD involved, there is no way present TTs can compete at anything like the price.
  
 It will be demonstrated that it is your comment that is lacking foundation in reality - not the other way around.


----------



## Hijodelbrx

....Photograph Of Your Turntable....the last page and a half had only TWO pics!  Just sayin'.  Honestly, I like the thread 'cause it features turntable porn.  Keep the pics comin'!!


----------



## bbophead

hijodelbrx said:


> ....Photograph Of Your Turntable....the last page and a half had only TWO pics!  Just sayin'.  Honestly, I like the thread 'cause it features turntable porn.  Keep the pics comin'!!


 

 I agree.  There are other sites for advice and info.  Can we just KISS?
  
 I know some of you peeps are tired of seeing my RP6 but this IS a photo site, no?  So, post already.
  
 Here's the latest Sergio Mendez.  Yes, I'm sure it's a digital master.  Is there a problem?


----------



## parbaked

bbophead said:


> Is there a problem?


 
 I have a problem...you cropped your 2M Blackie out!!!


----------



## parbaked




----------



## Eee Pee




----------



## bbophead

parbaked said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a problem?
> ...


 

 Naw, that's just poor photography skills.  Mea culpa.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> I agree.  There are other sites for advice and info.  Can we just KISS?
> 
> I know some of you peeps are tired of seeing my RP6 but this IS a photo site, no?  So, post already.
> 
> Here's the latest Sergio Mendez.  Yes, I'm sure it's a digital master.  Is there a problem?


 
 Yes, there is a problem.
  
 Better cartridges tend to protest with a transparent reading : ( like a computer asking you, several times : Are you really sure you want to format the C drive ? ) :
  
 Are you really sure you want to wear my precious stylus for this digital crap ?
  
 Half joking, half serious; I can not say 100 % of what I listen to on vinyl has been recorded in analog - yet I see little reason in getting the worst of both worlds in playing a digital recording on a vinyl copy. 
  
 That half joking, half serious gets ultra serious with truly outstanding vintage carts, whose styli are, for all practical purposes, all I will ever get and are by now unobtainium - at ANY price. No way on earth I will use them to play anything that was digitally recorded or remastered.


----------



## Eee Pee

Who cares? Take a hint and post pictures.


----------



## bbophead

LIKE!


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > I agree.  There are other sites for advice and info.  Can we just KISS?
> ...


 
 Here's what I like about this vinyl copy of a digital recording, the art work, the readability, the process (looking, taking out the LP, cleaning, using my turntable, I could go on), oh, and it sounds really good.  No, I haven't compared it to the CD.  This is a 2M Black, it is not vintage. You are certainly welcome NOT to play a vinyl record made from a digital digital source.  I will enjoy the music.


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Here's what I like about this vinyl copy of a digital recording, the art work, the readability, the process (looking, taking out the LP, cleaning, using my turntable, I could go on), oh, and it sounds really good.  No, I haven't compared it to the CD.  This is a 2M Black, it is not vintage. You are certainly welcome NOT to play a vinyl record made from a digital digital source.  I will enjoy the music.


 
 I certainly agree regarding the readability, the process, etc - and regarding the use of de facto replaceable ( readily available ) styli ( either trough simple substitution for the new replaceable stylus or retipping ) - but I do mind using terrific vintage styli for digital recordings.
  
 Once heard what truly great analog has in the grooves, knowing the only way to get it out of the grooves is trough styli from the bygone Golden Era  of analog ( late 70's-early 80's - have NO comparable equivalents in the production today, regardless of price ) - you would feel the same.
  
 I agree it is music that comes first; but if that music is captured so much better in analog and is only retrievable by the select group of vintage carts/styli ( broadly speaking, less than 10 models from all of the manufacturers combined ) - playing those super recordings with lesser styli would "erase" those amazingly awesome recorded highs in one reproduction - and these super styli would be wasted by wearing them out unnecessarily with digital recordings.


----------



## ]eep

eee pee said:


> Who cares? Take a hint and post pictures.




I wonder, ... what does your signature mean? Seems like no-one gets it. :rolleyes:


And, uhm, can anyone explain to me what a POS is? Permanently Out of Service? 

I know a good reason not to go on and on and on and on about those dusty, scratchy 'vintage' TT's. They are ugly and not fit for a photo thread. They have, as they say, a good face for radio. 



> No way on earth I will use them to play anything that was digitally recorded or remastered.



That is just being snob, silly and unrealistic. 'Digital' masters and -remasters from the 80-90 are dull sounding rubbish. But properly done modern recordings and remasters sound anything like rubbish. They can sound very good, sometimes even better than old masters.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> I wonder, ... what does your signature mean? Seems like no-one gets it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I am merely trying to be - realistic.
  
 As much as I do love analog, I can not deny that its downfalls do not destract from the "perfect" experience. If the recording is originally digital - it IS best played on digital gear; at least no analog problems added to the mix.
  
 Where there is signal recorded to the analog disc using analog recording containing frequency response past 20 kHz - then I would tend to go with analog. And, YES, one does need a super performing cartridge in order to extract the most out of the disc - or, more realistically, at least not damage the grooves on HOT treble - where all the action in phono cartridges really is.
  
 As most normal carts CAN NOT COPE with "balls out - full throttle" ( to quote Chuck Yeager ) signal on disc, the overall level of information cut into the groove gets diminished - by 6 dB or even more in the practice - so that "it will track with most average equipment". Reducing signal to noise ratio and dynamics by the same amount in the process.
  
 Magazine Audio in Germany has issued - MANY full moons ago - a test "record" in a most demanding and honestly produced manner imaginable : LP, CD and analog cassette - all containing the same technical signals and music. That cassette must be THE BEST pre-recorded cassette ever issued - and it takes one hell of a lot better performing cart than, say, a Koetsu (whatever model ) - IF that reproduction off disc is supposed to at least compete with this superbly recorded cassette.


----------



## bbophead

This would depend on what cassette player they were using?  Any wow and flutter spec has to be at  least .12 or less.  No?


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> This would depend on what cassette player they were using?  Any wow and flutter spec has to be at  least .12 or less.  No?


 
 I will scan one day the "papers" that came with this set of test disc, tape and CD.
  
 Cassette decks were top Revox machine
 http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/revox/b215.shtml
 , specially selected from the production run, sent to the "record plant", where they have been further once more calibrated by the Revox staff. Then the duplication begun - 1:1, real time, on so and so many cassette decks, until the number of copies desired had been reached. Tape used was from BASF, noise reduction was Dolby ( B IIRC ) - and with BASF being by FAR the quitest tape ever, the dynamic range is nothing short of phenomenal. 
  
 The precision of tape calibration on this test tape has CLEARLY shown that Technics cassette decks were - very precisely, with almost zero difference among samples - calibrated using a tape that had approx 2-3 dB difference between right and left channel. And, because of that, always sounded "off" on prerecorded tapes. Here comes the "best" : Technics, in order to provide best quality possible, went to the Nakamichi for calibration tape. And that resulted in the above ... - this is NOT what I call fair play! After seeing what latest Technics decks were capable of, the only course they saw open was to ********* the calibration tape ...


----------



## bbophead

Nice story!

 You know much more about this than I do.
  
 From personal experience, the shop I worked for had both Revox and Nakamichi, I would take almost any of the Naks over the Revox.  They were more reliable and frankly exceeded the specs of the Revox.  I have owned several Naks over the years and the BX-300 I have now still works beautifully.
  
 Now, back to photos.


----------



## esco

After 7 long years of dreaming, saving up, setbacks, and grad school, I've finally decided it was the right to invest in my first turntable (roommate had a basic turntable back then in college.) My eyes were first set on the P3-24, followed by the RP3 when it was subsequently released.


After recently finding a deal for $1,000, I'm now the happy new owner of the RP40!


----------



## bbophead

Clean set up and a beauty table.  Congratulations!


----------



## bbophead

Here's a new jazz album on vinyl, Jerome Sabbagh on tenor sax (sometimes sounds like Dexter Gordon).  Mastered by Doug Sax from two track analogue.  Two LPs at 33 for all the music.  180 gram quiet pressings in QRP sleeves.  Excellent, realistic sound.  His website lists $25 plus domestic shipping.  http://www.jeromesabbagh.com/  I was a kickstarter contributor, otherwise, no connection.


----------



## rmullins08

bbophead said:


> Here's a new jazz album on vinyl, Jerome Sabbagh on tenor sax (sometimes sounds like Dexter Gordon).  Mastered by Doug Sax from two track analogue.  Two LPs at 33 for all the music.  180 gram quiet pressings in QRP sleeves.  Excellent, realistic sound.  His website lists $25 plus domestic shipping.  http://www.jeromesabbagh.com/  I was a kickstarter contributor, otherwise, no connection.


 
  
 I ordered this after reading Fremer's review.  Looking forward to receiving it.


----------



## ]eep

I wen't to the goodwill 2ndH store yesterday as I usually do, and they had some new records. Obviously from someone with taste who did not have a lot of money but took good care of his records. Some were still in the plastic sleeve from the shop that has been gone for decades now. 
Some Deccas (1 old gold/orange LXT), a lot of Philips (1 plum label), 2 French HMV FALP (Beeth 9 Furtwängler), DGG Tulips and some often underrated Vox/Turnabout. I'm a big spender (not!), cost me all of €20. :rolleyes:


----------



## bbophead

Quite a deal!!!


----------



## Simon Templar

....sT


----------



## ]eep

Quite befitting a saint I would say...


----------



## bbophead

simon templar said:


> ....sT


 

 I thought I remembered that moniker.  I used to own Atma-Sphere MA-1 MKII (the golden face plates) and an MP-1 MKII.  Never went all the way to SoundLabs but I was tempted.  Went through some Martin Logans and Innersound along the way, not to mention QUAD 57/63 and so forth.  Nice looking vinyl set up you have.  Bet it sounds MAH-velous.


----------



## Simon Templar

bbophead said:


> I thought I remembered that moniker.  I used to own Atma-Sphere MA-1 MKII (the golden face plates) and an MP-1 MKII.  Never went all the way to SoundLabs but I was tempted.  Went through some Martin Logans and Innersound along the way, not to mention QUAD 57/63 and so forth.


 
  
  
  
 Yes, it's me.
  
 Mine are the Atma-Sphere MA-1 MkII.2 Silver Edition's (the first pair of Silver's that Ralph shipped.....full Class-A, no switch like the rest)
  

  
  
 I looked at ML Monoliths (the Prodigy's hadn't come out yet at that time) and Innersound Eros' too for awhile.  I see you're using Zeroes....I had a pair of the boxed Zero's for a couple years but ultimately decided they weren't really doing anything for me in my installation so I sold them off.
  
  
  
  
 ....sT


----------



## FlacFan

It took me forever to get around taking some pictures of my Micro Seiki DQX-1000.
  
 Here it goes:
  
 Long term storage

  
 Controller

  
 Top

  
  
 Detail

  

  

  
 Hope you enjoy those pics...
  
 Cheers.


----------



## bbophead

Impressive looking.  Getting back into vinyl?


----------



## FlacFan

bbophead said:


> Impressive looking.  Getting back into vinyl?




Thank you. I don't think so. This guy takes up some considerable space and needs a sturdy foundation, because it's quite heavy. Also, I have just a handful of records left. If I can find a way to sell, I will.

Cheers


----------



## ]eep

Don't do something you are going to regret later. LP's have already almost outlasted CD's and you have a really nice TT there that is going to outlast many a cd-player's electronics. 

Hey, I've switched to (HR) lossless/FLAC and HD years ago, but I'm never going to part from my vinyl.


----------



## FlacFan

]eep said:


> Don't do something you are going to regret later. LP's have already almost outlasted CD's and you have a really nice TT there that is going to outlast many a cd-player's electronics.
> 
> Hey, I've switched to (HR) lossless/FLAC and HD years ago, but I'm never going to part from my vinyl.




I hear you, but the thing is that I am the original owner of this TT purchased 1986 or thereabouts, but have it in that long term storage for 10 years or so. I think it is time to let go. This unit deserves to find an owner who appreciates it playing his/her favorite vinyl and not being hidden away in dark case....

Cheers.


----------



## penmarker

I wish I could buy it off your hands, but I'd imagine the cost would be...


----------



## Semantic Mantra

Greetings,
Im a Newbie here and if I understood correctly I wont be able to upload any pictures yet, anyway this morning I found an old
Philips 867 direct control  

Not in mint state but nothing seems really broken, has a Philips 401 cartridge (not sure the part is called that, but in my native language it is called "element" )
with a stylus that might need replacement, the belt also seems a bit loose.
I haven't played it yet, im gonna try starting it up this evening.

I will ofc post pictures when possilbe  
And as you might of noticed my knowledge could use some work, but thats for an other topic.

Cheers


----------



## ]eep

Welkom, 
you can upload pictures elsewhere and link them between [ image ] file url [ / image ] tags (zonder spaties).

If you need a new needle: http://www.pickupnaald.nl/philips-gp-400-511ds-stylus.html and about the belt, there is info too: http://www.pickupnaald.nl/snaren/info-snaren.html 

This guy knows a lot about it and can give you good advice. The needle is €19, belt ~€13 +€7 PP. It's where I buy my cleaning stuff.


----------



## FlacFan

penmarker said:


> I wish I could buy it off your hands, but I'd imagine the cost would be...


 
 You can. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Shipping costs would be an interesting number though....
  
 Cheers.


----------



## penmarker

flacfan said:


> You can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Last time I had a Telefunken TT shipped from Germany to Malaysia (here) it was 60 euros. Not sure about the weight, probably 15 kg?


----------



## FlacFan

penmarker said:


> Last time I had a Telefunken TT shipped from Germany to Malaysia (here) it was 60 euros. Not sure about the weight, probably 15 kg?


 
 24 kg.....
  
 Telefunken, wow I have not heard that brand name in a very long time. I used to own a Telefunken M3000 tape deck. Last millennium....
  
 Cheers


----------



## msiklvr

flacfan said:


> You can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hi FlacFan, where are you based?  Love the pictures.  Beautiful deck.


----------



## FlacFan

msiklvr said:


> Hi FlacFan, where are you based?  Love the pictures.  Beautiful deck.


 
 Central Florida. Thank you. 
  
 Can't get any better than this: Disney, Universal Studios, Alligators, Picking up a new TT, more Disney, beaches on both sides...hint, hint... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers.


----------



## Semantic Mantra

Allright the Philips 867 seems to function, but it does need a new stylus.
I'll check two Hi-Fi shops in my hometown, otherwise order it online.

-the link provided has plenty of options, thanks.


----------



## ]eep

semantic mantra said:


> Allright the Philips 867 seems to function, but it does need a new stylus.
> I'll check two Hi-Fi shops in my hometown, otherwise order it online.
> 
> -the link provided has plenty of options, thanks.



I'll bet they won't be able or willing to help you (big fuss, low gain). But pickupnaald has the best prices and a large range of replacements and accessories. And I guess you won't be needing google translate since I know you live in Amsterdam :rolleyes:  (hint for the uninformed: that was a joke, A'dam is just a city, the country is a lot larger than that).


----------



## msiklvr

Thanks for the info and the image.  I'm on the wrong side of the world, space, finances and wife to make that a reality.  Maybe some day.
  
 Good luck with the sale.
  
 Regards


----------



## ]eep

Looking for a new angle. I was preparing some of my overstock for sale when I found this nice emerald colored Bad Company bootleg. You would almost think it's a McIntosh with that colour. It difficult colour to display on my monitor with the intense blue-green, but I think it should be ok as desktop. This time a tried a fill-in flash too. Hope you like.


----------



## bbophead

Well done, jeep!


----------



## Redcarmoose

]eep said:


> Looking for a new angle. I was preparing some of my overstock for sale when I found this nice emerald colored Bad Company bootleg. You would almost think it's a McIntosh with that colour. It difficult colour to display on my monitor with the intense blue-green, but I think it should be ok as desktop. This time a tried a fill-in flash too. Hope you like.






Wow


----------



## ]eep

Anyone in for an overload of pink?


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Anyone in for an overload of pink?


 

  

  
 Nope - unless it is a bike frame ...


----------



## Redcarmoose

analogsurviver said:


> Nope - unless it is a bike frame ...





Wow, steel frames. ❤️


----------



## ]eep

Yeah but it's Colnago. Aren't they supposed to be pistachio icecream green? 
No, as I changes all the lights on my system to magenta LED's (pink) I thought it might be an idea to try to shoot Madonna. I mean, that pink 'dancefloor' album. Maybe it's even more dancefloor than the cover? 


So here it is. Just one from a series, but I think it's the most striking. 


Mind you, this is straight honest photography with a steady hand. I only use Photoshop for minor colourcorrection, very minor 'smart sharpen', and crop/size. It's better to have a 'clean subject' than to photoshop everything afterwards (like, erm, Madonna :rolleyes.


----------



## analogsurviver

]eep said:


> Yeah but it's Colnago. Aren't they supposed to be pistachio icecream green?
> No, as I changes all the lights on my system to magenta LED's (pink) I thought it might be an idea to try to shoot Madonna. I mean, that pink 'dancefloor' album. Maybe it's even more dancefloor than the cover?
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Nope, it is not a Colnago. Something way, way up in the archiarchy - a Mandarić . http://www.mandaric.com/
  
 But I do like the Madonna theme pic(s).


----------



## ]eep

slightly offtopic, but while looking for coverart for my Furtwangler on EMI flacs I stumbled on a 1945 Beethoven Sym No 4 Coriolan Vienna Philharmonic on the Vox label. You can count yourself very fortunate if you have one in mint condition. To say the least. $500 for an unstated condition, $2000 for a mint on Ebay atm. :eek: A Turnabout reissue (I like Turnabout for it's usually a hidden treasure) only $10. 


update... erm :rolleyes: 
I just found the Turnabout reissue in my vinyl collection. I thought it looked familiar, I don't even have it that long. Well, the next listen I will be a lot more attentive.


----------



## Redcarmoose

The 





]eep said:


> slightly offtopic, but while looking for coverart for my Furtwangler on EMI flacs I stumbled on a 1945 Beethoven Sym No 4 Coriolan Vienna Philharmonic on the Vox label. You can count yourself very fortunate if you have one in mint condition. To say the least. $500 for an unstated condition, $2000 for a mint on Ebay atm. :eek: A Turnabout reissue (I like Turnabout for it's usually a hidden treasure) only $10.
> 
> 
> update... erm :rolleyes:
> I just found the Turnabout reissue in my vinyl collection. I thought it looked familiar, I don't even have it that long. Well, the next listen I will be a lot more attentive.




The 4th is my favorite by far. The least loved by most in the 9. Not that I'm an expert but have had exposure to all of them for maybe 35 years.


----------



## FYL941

My first vinyl set-up.


----------



## bbophead

fyl941 said:


> My first vinyl set-up.


 
 SWEET!  Tell us more, please.


----------



## FYL941

bbophead said:


> SWEET!  Tell us more, please.




Thanks, Yeah the TT is an entry level Music Hall mmf2.2 w an acrylic platter, which I added the project speed box and Vincent audio phono preamp. All that is fed into what you see below... I now see the reason why vinyl has been making a comeback in a world of digitized audio.



I was debating whether to upgrade the cartridge to an AT440 or just save money and upgrade the TT itself. Then again I don't have much of a vinyl collection to make that move and see the value in that...


----------



## ]eep

That's a very nice entry.  And a nice system. Although (I dunno if I'm safe to say that here) playing vinyl over speakers works even better. 

About the cartridge, in my experience, upgrading will give you more enjoyment but upgrading the turntable will show more tightness and refinement. But the new TT will need a new cart too eventually. And a new TT with a standard cart will sound better but misses the fun factor (related to a complete freq.spectrum) in my experience.
So my advice: just keep buying vinyl and build a nice collection until you can justify the upgrade to a better cart. And later, get a better TT after a few years. Then you will know what you missed and be all the more pleased.


----------



## Schnarpf

]eep said:


> Yeah but it's Colnago. Aren't they....
> 
> The green ones are Bianchis!


----------



## parbaked

schnarpf said:


> ]eep said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah but it's Colnago. Aren't they....
> ...


 
 FTFY


----------



## ]eep

I _did_ know that. :rolleyes: I can sing beautifully, it's just the way it comes out of my throat that is so awful.  
Here's another enigma: my racingbike is a Rose (in dutch=pink) yet it's matte white. I like to buy smart. 

on topic

Here's one more, different pink


----------



## esteboune

Hi all!
  
 i'm very glad to post those 2 pictures of my 1st turntable system ever!
  
 i hesitated for months, and wasn't sure if this way of enjoying music was for me.
  
 Well, yesterday i bought:
  
 1. Pro-Ject rpm 1 carbon
 2. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS
 3. 4 records! 
  
 I also bought a brush, ordered a cork mat, and a clamp.
  
 here a the pictures!
  

  


 I'm absolutely delighted!


----------



## bbophead

As you should be.  Congratulations!


----------



## Quinto

esteboune said:


> Hi all!
> 
> i'm very glad to post those 2 pictures of my 1st turntable system ever!
> 
> ...


 
 Very cool!! congratulations!


----------



## 13713

I found this gem today. It was to hard to say no.



Sota Nova V vacuum with a SME 3 arm and Benz micro S.


----------



## bbophead

Very nice!
  
 You "found" it?


----------



## 13713

bbophead said:


> Very nice!
> 
> You "found" it?




Yeah on Craigslist. I paid over the asking price as it was deeply discounted and he was the original owner with all the paperwork


----------



## ]eep

That Sota is really awesome. Although I associate finding rather with a dusty attic or the forgotten top shelf of some old store closing up, for free or bargain basement price. This looks very well taken care of. 

Talking of finds: yesterday there was a bunch of new stuff coming in at the charity thriftstore. I found some very nice LP's in excellent condition. Firts edition Columbia 10", HMV ALP, London LL, a Vox box, RCA's (dynagroove). Some were deemed 'unworthy' but I rescued them from the garbage. Ranging in genre from What to WTH... let's try it first. That's how I found Amalia Rodrigues the first time; a true fado gem! 
So yesterday evening I played Rhoda Scott (on Barclay). That was in the category OMG... Hammond Organ! :basshead: The funky way! And fun too. 
Peter Nero, mono Dynagroove. Sound: outstanding. Genre: Jazz/classic crossover with stand-up undertones. A lot of fun to listen to. 
Amalia Rodrigues: don't underestimate those 10" discs. Very fine sound, although mono. A true sense of (timemachine) presence. Just like the Mozart Figaro Karajan 10". 
I haven't listened to the other musical/operette freebees yet. 

Today I went to another one, and they had new stuff too. Since I already spent €10 yesterday I intended not to buy much, but they had some serious jazz records. For the first time ever, that I remember. They were less cheap @ €3, but still a 'find'. And 3 French Decca LXT and HMV (LVdsM) and a nice Philips mono plum label. So again €10. But I just couldn't leave them behind. 


I find this quite a lot of finds in 2 days.


----------



## bbophead

That's a fabulous haul!  Love Rhoda Scott but then, I'm a jazz organ nut.


----------



## bbophead

Speaking of jazz organ, this came out new in 2010.  I'm sure it's a digital master but WTH, I like it anyway.  The Doctor is one of my fav B3 masters.
  

  
 Here's another digital master on vinyl of the great Joey D.


----------



## Arsis

Garrard 440M
I couldn't pass it up for $20. It doesn't sound nearly as good as my lowly Realistic linear tracker. Though all i did with the Garrard is look at the stylus with a microscope and plug it in. I think its in amazing shape to be 40 years old. I don't know that I'll keep it. I'll probably gift it to a friend as a starter table.


----------



## ]eep

Looks like an automatic disc changer? And you can play 78's. And it looks in very good condition. Amazingly good.


----------



## JamesHuntington

Using this setup for my collection of used records which is not bad sounding for all 2nd hand gear. Pioneer pl115d with a sure m44-7.


----------



## bbophead

jameshuntington said:


> Using this setup for my collection of used records which is not bad sounding for all 2nd hand gear. Pioneer pl115d with a sure m44-7.


 
 And a Bellari phono preamp.  Wow, I owned a Shure M44-7 over forty years ago!  Congratulations on digging the vinyl.


----------



## JamesHuntington

bbophead said:


> And a Bellari phono preamp.  Wow, I owned a Shure M44-7 over forty years ago!  Congratulations on digging the vinyl.



I was recommended the Bellari so I waited to find one on eBay and saved 50% of new. I was told it performed as well as preamps in the $700 range.


----------



## Eee Pee

Got my little set up going again. 



Traveler with HW-19 mk3 platter, AT 440 cart, Schiit Mani then Vali.


----------



## bbophead

eee pee said:


> Got my little set up going again.
> 
> 
> 
> Traveler with HW-19 mk3 platter, AT 440 cart, Schiit Mani then Vali.


 
 Looks the biz.  Bet it sounds good.


----------



## Eee Pee

Not bad. Pretty good balance.


----------



## dosley01

jameshuntington said:


> I was recommended the Bellari so I waited to find one on eBay and saved 50% of new. I was told it performed as well as preamps in the $700 range.


 
  
 The VP130 is fun to tube roll with especially since you only need a single 12AX7 or 5751.  Also if you get any hum, ditch the power supply.  RatShack sells a Enercell 15V power supply and M size tip (Radio shack part numbers 273-332 and 273-344) that work much better. 
  
 When I first got back into Vinyl, I had that with a few different Pro-Ject and Music Hall tables and they brought tons of enjoyment.  Maybe it was the excitement of enjoying records again, but it might have been more fun than my system now which is way more $$$.


----------



## natemact

Not my current table but the most visually striking of the bunch I've owned, and what a difference that Perihpery Ring made by increasing PRAT and bass weight.
  
 While the Classic is a great table I always found it to have excess mid-treble energy is the 3-5KHz range (tried mats, carts, Best Tractor, VTA adjust, etc) and could never get it to relax and just flow through some easy, breezy music.
  
 Considered turning down the rock by swapping my solid state phono pre for a tubbed design but ultimately having the ability to run a fully balanced system was a must for me (phono carts are inherently balanced), so the GCPH stayed and the goofy golf ball Amadeus came in instead. Just wish I knew of Well Tempered Labs years ago!


----------



## Eee Pee

That golf ball tonearm is totally cool!


----------



## natemact

Ya, Bill Firebaugh is quite the innovator! A golf ball floating in a bath of silicone fluid? Who'da thought it? 
  
 No cartridge alignment on their tonearms either, just azimuth and VTA. Crazy! I know. But Bill believes it's not needed on his tables.
  
 I'll get a couple shots of the Amadeus up soon enough


----------



## basman

Current'


----------



## bbophead

Real nice.  Although your TT is not listed in your profile.  Would have liked a bit more detail.  Thanks.


----------



## basman

Thanks, just an old vpi scout with upgraded jmw signature tonearm/grado sonata cart, black acrylic platter, hurst motor and outer ring and sds control.


----------



## analogsurviver

natemact said:


> Ya, Bill Firebaugh is quite the innovator! A golf ball floating in a bath of silicone fluid? Who'da thought it?
> 
> No cartridge alignment on their tonearms either, just azimuth and VTA. Crazy! I know. But Bill believes it's not needed on his tables.
> 
> I'll get a couple shots of the Amadeus up soon enough


 
 Bill Firebaugh has initially provided for all adjustments
 http://www.vinylengine.com/library/well-tempered/arm.shtml
 on his arms, not just azimuth and VTA. In some recent(ish) models, there is a lack of  antiskating adjustment - which is fixed at some "medium" setting, which works kind of well enough for current cartridge compliance/VTF/stylus shape combinations. A golf ball floating in silicone fluid came to life only after he sold the initial company - and is a much better than former disk plate part used initially. It allows for much greater movement without undue resistance, particularly in vertical plane, where original design was problematic with warps - practically any vertical irregularity had to be absorbed by the poor cartridge cantilever. The ball version arm is also far less prone to structural resonances.
  
 Even if the cartridge alignment is not specifically mentioned, it is still possible to perform it. But it is awkward - as it always has been. The worst part of the design(s) is around the headshell(s); mounting the cartridge using a single screw and not providing any platform for it, as in some versions, is the worst possible solution in existence.
  
 Well Tempered Arm, regardless of the model (although there are differences among models), primarily shines in the midrange and overall stability - trading some dynamics in the process. It is a nice relaxed listen and I like it.


----------



## natemact

I suppose I misspoke. I'm only talking about WTL's modern "golf ball" tonearms when stating that they do not provide offset angle and overhang adjustment.
  
 Here's a quote from Art Dudley regarding the Amadeus mk2 (Stereophile Jul 30, 2014)


> "The effective length of the tonearm is greater than average, at 10.5". Its modest aluminum cartridge mount is fixed in place at an offset angle of 19°, and there are no provisions for overhang adjustment—a fact noted in the comprehensive owner's manual: "Some alignment protractors may well disagree. However, the Well Tempered Lab stands by their convictions."


 
  
 While I suppose you could adjust offset angle/overhang by adjusting the position of the golf ball relative to the center of the cup, I wouldn't bother as the manual states the ball should sit in the center of the cup. As for anti-skate, it's just a simple half twist of the tonearm cable.

  
 Ya, the first incarnation of the WTA proved to have to much resistance in the tonearm's vertical plane, although it was this resistance that Bill initially thought would provide adequate damping for the tonearm...maybe he went a little overboard in the beginning! This was later rectified through careful redesign of the paddle though.
  
 The "single-hole cartridge mounting with no platform" design of the first WTA in 1984 was pretty silly, but Bill opted for this headshell http://www.audio-markt.de/images/neuheiten/news15503.jpg soon after.
  
 Here's a quote from J. Gordon Holt regarding the Well-Tempered Arm, note the date (Stereophile Apr 9, 1985)


> "The "headshell" is merely a small aluminum block with a single elongated hole in it (for overhang adjustment). The cartridge does not attach directly to this, but to a small metal strip, one end of which extends in a gentle curve to serve as a finger lift. The strip has two unthreaded cartridge-mount holes".


----------



## ssrock64

Hey everyone, I posted this over at the Turntable Setup thread since I wasn't aware of this thread, but I figure it's more appropriate here. I'm trying to identify a tonearm I found in a box today in a storage unit; does anybody know what make/model this is?


----------



## bbophead

You may get quicker help here:  http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/bbs.html


----------



## ssrock64

bbophead said:


> You may get quicker help here:  http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/bbs.html


 

 Thanks for the suggestion, I'll try over there.


----------



## natemact

ssrock64 said:


> Hey everyone, I posted this over at the Turntable Setup thread since I wasn't aware of this thread, but I figure it's more appropriate here. I'm trying to identify a tonearm I found in a box today in a storage unit; does anybody know what make/model this is?


 

 It's a naked Syntec S-220


----------



## ssrock64

natemact said:


> It's a naked Syntec S-220


 

 Yeah, I eventually happened across a picture of one while digging through a bunch of blind Google searches. It seems like it would be easy to find parts if I was in Australia (where they were apparently popular as part of package deals for radio stations buying PL-10s), but I'm pretty much out of luck locating the counterweights/side weights and the mounting equipment here in the U.S.
  
 If anybody in Australia (or elsewhere) happens to have an old one of these lying around, I would love to talk to you about buying some parts.


----------



## mark_h

Well I recieved my Thorens td124 today but cannot upload a photo from my iPhone! Came with Akito and AT cart. Going to be replaced with EMT 929 and would welcome cartridge suggestions? A fan of Lyra...might even splash out on EMT's new headshell and onenifntheir new cartridges!


----------



## bbophead

Congrats and would love to see some pics! 
  
 Cant help you with the cartridge rec so good luck with that.


----------



## mark_h




----------



## bbophead

Nice, and, arty.


----------



## mark_h

Yeah I'm going for the big reveal when the 929's fitted with a trendy cartridge! I love this thread you can open any page and get great images/vinyl.


----------



## analogsurviver

mark_h said:


> Well I recieved my Thorens td124 today but cannot upload a photo from my iPhone! Came with Akito and AT cart. Going to be replaced with EMT 929 and would welcome cartridge suggestions? A fan of Lyra...might even splash out on EMT's new headshell and onenifntheir new cartridges!


 
 Hmmm - EMT929 is quite a high effective mass tonearm, I am afraid on the high end of what a Lyra cart might still be comfortable with. Perhaps with one of the
 ever_more_elusive_low_mass_headshells - which are getting REALLY hard to obtain in recent years. 
  
 A great resource on EMT, Thorens, etc is this : http://www.stefanopasini.it/Audio_index_Main.htm
  
 With this kind of "heavy metal", besides EMT's own models ( and myriad of EMT modded carts ), Ortofon SPU, Ikeda ( particularly cantileverless models ), etc, spring to mind.
  
 I am generally not fan of Linn - but their arms do stand above the rest of their production. I have a particularly soft spot for the Ittok - a GREAT arm for - MMs !


----------



## Eee Pee




----------



## Sdir

I've recently got into vinyl with headphone.
 TT>schiit mani>Audio gd compass 2 dac/amp
  
 I'm having an issue with the constant buzzing noise when using headphone with it, even when just connected to, but nothing is playing.
 It's the same kind of buzzing sound when a sensitive headphone is plugged into a high output amp (definitely not humming noise from earth cable).
 Same buzzing sound is not there when running just dac/amp using computer as source.
  
 Is this normal? TT analog signals are just more sensitive than USB digital audio?
 Will the nose floor be better if I were to use high impedance headphones? (current headphone are all <50ohms)
 Or are TT not suitable for headphones and i'll have to get stereo speakers to have a better noise floor?


----------



## penmarker

Might be something wrong with your turntable's grounding. Does it have a separate ground cable or does it only have an RCA phono cable? I had the Rega RP1 and it had the grounding buzzing issue too.

Low sensitivity and high impedance would help lower the noise floor, but try checking the grounding first. Does the noise change when you touch the tonearm?


----------



## Sdir

penmarker said:


> Might be something wrong with your turntable's grounding. Does it have a separate ground cable or does it only have an RCA phono cable? I had the Rega RP1 and it had the grounding buzzing issue too.
> 
> Low sensitivity and high impedance would help lower the noise floor, but try checking the grounding first. Does the noise change when you touch the tonearm?


 

 The RCA cable connected between TT and phono has a grounding cable attached to it, its a cable with 3 ends, red, white, and grounding.
 No noise change when i touches the tonearm.
 There's a distinct hum when i remove the grounding from 1 end, and gone when connected, so i guess it isn't the grounding?
  
 I only have a low sensitivity and low impedance (HE560) and high sensitivity and low impedance (ad2000), the he560 definitely has a better noise floor.
 It's still distinct enough to hear buzzing with he560 in some songs with quiet passage.


----------



## turbotr

Greeting from Buda, Texas (just S of Austin). Here's an image of my LP12. It's pretty well decked out and sports a top line Linn Akiva MC cartridge. 
  
 [url=http://1drv.ms/1P1MtU9]http://1drv.ms/1P1MtU9[/url]/[img]
  
 Sorry, my acct level does not allow posting pictures yet apparently. 
  
 I use a Naim Stageline phono pre with it. Highly recommended.
  
 I bought my first LP12 with Naim NAC42.5 pre and NAP140 amp in ~ 1984. Used Linn Kan speakers for a long time with that system as well. Very enjoyable.
  
 It's pretty cool that analog is hipster trendy lately of course. But also seeing so much being done ~ wrong is disturbing to an old school aficionado like myself ;)
  
 TurboTR


----------



## bbophead

Very nice!  Rega phono stage!
  
 This might interest you:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/785588/head-fi-austin-january-23-2016


----------



## turbotr

bbophead said:


> Very nice!  Rega phono stage!
> 
> This might interest you:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/785588/head-fi-austin-january-23-2016


 
 Yes that is interesting, thanks!
  
 T


----------



## turbotr

The resolving power of analog, especially on a well engineered tt with a high end MC and good electronics is pretty incredible really. FAR better than the best redbook CD; it can't even come close. Grand Funk red album for example is almost like the band is in the room, literally. Of course the downside is surface noise, etc. I have an ultrasonic cleaner for that too, but it can only do so much.
  
 And it is first and foremost an engineering quest. Dragging a tiny stone through a vinyl trench basically, trying to resolve motion down into the nanometer range. Then amplify that by ~ 1 million X into the motion of the speaker cones. It's rather amazing that it works at all really. Generally speaking of course. 
  
 It's then not hard to see that _any_ spurious movement in that process is detrimental to extracting the signal; it's quite an engineering challenge. Linn for example understood that well back in the 60's/70's though. And the founder was a proud Scottish mechanical engineer 
  
 It's why they use an expensive, extremely tight tolerance single point thrust bearing for example. Also why they use an AC synchronous motor rather than DC servo (it's smoother). And even that improves by synthesizing the drive waveform (ie Lingo PSU).
  
 It's the mechanical equivalent of maintaining signal in electronics. I've found that microvolts matter electrically in audio; it's not trivial to deal with that. Nor is it trivial to deal with nanometer range of movement.
  
 In a DAC design project recently I found that even 10's of ps of CLK pin jitter can/does make an audible difference. Reducing it from ~ 80ps -> less than 2 ps in this case. It takes awhile to digest that and appreciate why/how (as much as one can anyway). It takes a high resolution system to hear it readily of course. A generic PC based audio system for example, it doesn't matter really. But in a high res system even the wires are audible. Resistors can make almost as big a difference as caps. Etc, etc.
  
 To get it > good takes serious effort. You just can't get anywhere near that with the $200 jobbies at Walmart or your local groovy record store. 
  
 T


----------



## vapman

Just sold my ultra mint Technics 1200 MK2 to invest in a belt drive. here goes nothing...


----------



## bbophead

vapman said:


> Just sold my ultra mint Technics 1200 MK2 to invest in a belt drive. here goes nothing...


 

 Rots uh ruck!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Never owned a DD, love my belt drive.


----------



## Quinto

vapman said:


> Just sold my ultra mint Technics 1200 MK2 to invest in a belt drive. here goes nothing...


 

 still miss the stable pitch of mine (solo piano)  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  like the sound of my belt TT much better though  good luck!


----------



## vapman

to be honest i dont mind not having that ultra perfect pitch all the time 
 i would rather have the lusher & imperfect sound of a belt drive.
 i got sick of not knowing when i was playing vinyl or a cd.


----------



## Eee Pee

Some weekend fun. RP3 with their Elys and my Traveler and AT440



Into a Schit Mani then Mjolnir then Audeze LCD-2. Japanese pressing of Dark Side of the Moon. Was awesome.


----------



## bbophead

It's O.K., you can tell us.


----------



## Bill G

Here's my vinyl spinner; a Clearaudio Concept with a Sumiko Blue Point Special EVO III Cartridge. The table is isolated with 3 Boston Audio Design TuneBlocks.
 The sorbothane pucks support the dust cover, since the turntable is elevated by the TuneBlocks.


----------



## turbotr

vapman said:


> to be honest i dont mind not having that ultra perfect pitch all the time
> i would rather have the lusher & imperfect sound of a belt drive.
> i got sick of not knowing when i was playing vinyl or a cd.


 
 I've never noticed the belt drive on mine to be too imperfect  
  
 And imperfect pitch would drive me nuts! Especially if it's wavering, even slightly. I'm very sensitive to it; but not everyone is it seems. 
  
 I once told a (good) local high end audio/service tech place that a very expensive Nak cassette player was slightly slow. They couldn't hear it and insisted it was ok, and I of course could not understand how they could not hear it lol. I persisted and eventually they analyzed and adjusted it- it was in fact running 0.5% slow acc to their instrument 
  
 T


----------



## bbophead

You the man!
  
 Love my BX-300.


----------



## bbophead

Aww, that's a nice lookin' rig.  Bet it sounds as good as it looks.


----------



## turbotr

Lol.. Sure! 
  
  


bbophead said:


> You the man!
> 
> Love my BX-300.


 
 Sure! lol..
  
 By strange coinky-dink I too still have a BX-300 and it actually runs 
  
 T


----------



## Eee Pee

bbophead said:


> It's O.K., you can tell us.


 
 If you're talking to me, I can quote the RP3 owner.
  
 "It's depressing."
  
 I insisted it's not a table thing, it's a cart thing. Though I admit the amount of dust transferred from his RP3 mat to the records was seriously annoying, the table seemed fine. Looked a little dainty though. He had the speed controller too. The biggest takeaway was how deep the AT440 dug into the grooves. Instantly noticeable. His first reaction was, wow surface noise. Then I was like, wait... Then he was like oh, okay, I get it now. Then I'd say about 20 seconds later he realized the Elys cart ain't all that.


----------



## bbophead

Yeah, I had read nothing particularly wonderful about Rega cartridges.  That's why I went straight to the 2M Black. I've had Ortofons over the years and felt comfortable with them.  I have no regrets.
  
 I know nothing about dust.  Very early on, I went with after market everything (GrooveTracer) and I don't use a mat.
  
 Very happy.


----------



## bbophead

turbotr said:


> Lol.. Sure!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I had one for about 20 plus years and it finally had a problem.  So, I bought a very slightly used one and it's amazing.  Still bumping live tapes I made with a Sony TC-D5 to ceedee.  Works like a champ.


----------



## ]eep

There's nothing wrong with a mat. The mat doesn't attract dust, static does. And then there's dust and dust; fine dust or fluffy fibres. Like spiders you got to worry about the small ones. 

About the residual buzzing on a turntable, it probably is the grounding. But it matters where the grounding is attached on the arm. I modified the grounding on a (not cheap) Project arm that had the wire attached on the arm near the base with a small screw. It was the wrong, to thick, wire interfering with movement. So I replaced it and found a better spot to ground. That totally eliminated all residual hum. So it matters where the arm is grounded. Just experiment to find the best spot.


----------



## rmsanger

My thorens td125mkii rig with sme3009 tone arm playing through a schiit stack and event 20/20 bas v3 speakers


----------



## bbophead

A beautiful classic, hard to beat.


----------



## Hawkertempest

I meant to reply to a post and hit the wrong button....sorry


----------



## Hawkertempest

Did you wash it under a tap with clean water when it got ​dirty, or did you throw the instructions away without reading them when you purchased it? This is one of the best stylus cleaners available at any price and if used properly will not damage the stylus and will last for years.
    To clean it you wash it under running water, it will then be as new again.


----------



## Hawkertempest

Quote: 





roadcykler said:


> I think it works great. I had another one from a different company for a while but it got hard and wouldn't collect anything. I e-mailed them and told them what happened and that I'd only had it about 3 months and they sent me some new goo but it did the same thing. I think the Onzow is ridiculously priced for what it is but so far it's done the job quite well.


 
 Did you wash it under a tap with clean water or did you throw the instructions away without reading them? This is one of the best Stylus cleaners available as long as it is used properly and washed under clear cold water regularly.


----------



## natemact

No, not mine....not even close, but just wanted to share the best designed, greatest sounding turntable offered today. Yep, bold statement but it's true!
  

  
 Here's my favorite ultra high-end nut with his "oh so deliberate" thoughts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYDHnH3FfV4
  
 The TechDas and Walker decks he's talking about in the video are each over $100K too. This makes the Kronos an absolute steal at a measly $38K lol. This guy also had a Onedof a while back too! What a nut!


----------



## Eee Pee

That's pretty sweet!


----------



## ]eep

It looks like a cross between the Clearaudio Master Innovation and the 47-Labs Koma. And the price is that combined as well (meaning they both cost < half). I think with some convincing I could settle for 60kg's of Clearaudio if I really, really had to.


----------



## natemact

Ya I can see it, but different in design from the Clearaudio Master Innovation where the Kronos' second platter is counter-rotating to null the effects of the rotating top platter. Like I said, a stunning achievement and the closest thing to listening to the master tape in vinyl playback today.


----------



## ]eep

like I said: a cross between the Clearaudio Master Innovation and the 47-Labs Koma. And some SME for spice. The idea of counter spinning discs is from 47-Labs. It's not like that's an original idea. I wonder if 47-Labs patented that or they could be in for trouble. But it looks like the belt-drive configuration is different. It's a bit of a hodge podge, but a nice one. And if it works who am I to judge?

I found a review that seems to me rather more balanced and down to earth. Positive, but with sidenotes. Not that What Hifi is the be all and end all, but like most English reviews it gives of an unbiased vibe.


----------



## natemact

Well you definitely know your turntables but your tonearms need some work......Graham Phantom Elite) But I shouldn't talk because the Koma is brand new to my brain) The rest of this is just a What Hi-Fi? rant not directed towards you at all, so don't feel it's a must read)
  
 WHF was the first magazine I gravitated to when I got into the hobby, but quickly found them to be heavily biased towards British gear.
  
 Year after year I've seen too many of their "Awards" go to Naim, Cyrus, Roksan, Rega, Cambridge, ATC, PMC, Wharfedale, Monitor Audio, QUAD, Acoustic Energy, Spendor and Atlas and QED cables. Once in a while B&W and NAD would sneak in there. I mean British gear is good and all, but there's nothing better??? That's when I found that they actually are other audio companies in Europe lol, not to mention NA's and Japan's offerings!
  
 Plus, their reviews of ultra high-end gear are so rare that it's hard to put their opinion in context when they haven't heard a TechDas, Continium or Walker table. Not even a SME, Brinkmann or Spiral Groove over the years either! Ridiculous! Their opinion is meaningless to me as I have no idea what they're comparing the Kronos to as a reference.
  
 I'm taking a look right now.....everything I type in comes up empty. No Magico, YG, Rockport, Kharma, Raidho speakers. No Ayre, ModWright, Zesto, Constellation, Devialet 200, PASS Labs, CH Precision, Soulution electronics. What!?!? Not even one of the nearly 100 amazing Audio Note products from their own country? No tremendously valued Wyred 4 Sound products? Can't even be bothered to review the most talked about DAC going today, the Exogal? Oh ya, it's American! lol. Well holy boats, a VPI Prime!...but no Scout, Classic...big surprise.
  
 You kidding me here WHF? Haven't even had a Dynavector cartridge in for review!!! A generic, white-bread, everybody's heard of'em Dyna! It's even worse than I remembered. I say boooo WHF...BOOOOOO!
  
 Sorry for my diatribe, as WHF not being respected as a reputable reviewing magazine is really nothing new. Over the years I've found many non UK based audiophiles reiterating my same sentiments.


----------



## ]eep

I agree mostly on what you said about What Hifi. "found them to be heavily biased towards British gear." But have you considered the price premium for imported goods compared to domestic? Look at the N-American prices for European gear, they are >>1.5x the price of the local price. So is US gear over here. So if you compare UK vs USx1.5 it's not very strange that the UK gear wins. Take that product and compare it in a US magazine and its the other way around: compare the 'cheap' UKx1.5 vs the same local US/1.5, the difference is 2.2 times. 

And, American mags are even more biased towards US gear at ridiculous prices. I don't even read them anymore. Normally I read HFN&RR or German mags.

I really like the table. But the cost? That makes it quite a niche-product. Sort of a prototype with a few extra. The ideas are nice, but seem like a collection of other peoples good ideas and research. Now making a table great is a mixing and balancing of all ingredients (and spices), so that in itself is quite a feat too. 

Oh, and I was referring to the SME turntable suspension, not their arms.


----------



## Redcarmoose

]eep said:


> I agree mostly on what you said about What Hifi. "found them to be heavily biased towards British gear." But have you considered the price premium for imported goods compared to domestic? Look at the N-American prices for European gear, they are >>1.5x the price of the local price. So is US gear over here. So if you compare UK vs USx1.5 it's not very strange that the UK gear wins. Take that product and compare it in a US magazine and its the other way around: compare the 'cheap' UKx1.5 vs the same local US/1.5, the difference is 2.2 times.
> 
> And, American mags are even more biased towards US gear at ridiculous prices. I don't even read them anymore. Normally I read HFN&RR or German mags.
> 
> ...




I read What Hifi, and agree. Still what are they going to do. The chain that spins the wheel that moves the bike. It's a system and they mostly have British gear, still they do say nice stuff about import audio gear, they just have so little of it to review compared to domestic production. 

The Brits also actually have audio trends that you don't read about in Stereophile. It's all very cute in a way. I love Rega equipment. Still were lucky the stuff is made better than Triumph motorcycles or cars in the 1970s. Lol


----------



## brokenthumb

Here is mine


----------



## bbophead

Nice.  VPI's always look the business.


----------



## 13713

I love the look of VPI tables... Very nice!


----------



## Quinto

V P I  ALWAYS COOL!
  
 one day I'm gonna own one darnit


----------



## 13713

I thought this as well then I found an amazing SOTA. I will still own one one day...


----------



## brokenthumb

Thanks guys!  I've wanted a VPI for years and finally pulled the trigger.


----------



## nojdrof

Hello guy's I'm new to this thread and thought I'd share my VPI CLASSIC


----------



## bbophead

Excellent!


----------



## bbophead

Beautiful business and, what a bright light!


----------



## Anavel0

Okay someone had too much fun in the design department. It's called Floating Record. Looks nice, but you won't catch me putting a record on that.


----------



## penmarker

It looked ok at first, but then I thought how would they keep the antiskate constant when it pivots?


----------



## Anavel0

penmarker said:


> It looked ok at first, but then I thought how would they keep the antiskate constant when it pivots?


That and vertical tracking force. O.o


----------



## ssrock64

It's an all-in-one system with built-in speakers, so we're not really the market for it. I had a couple discussions down at the local record store about this thing when its Kickstarter campaign first gained some attention from the press, and the general consensus is that the group behind it have made a real effort and covered the basics, but that even with an unamplified output offered, they haven't done enough to make it a real high-quality system or prevent long-term damage to your collection. It's a neat concept, but in the end this particular company is pitching a consumer product, not a serious audio component.


----------



## urbino

Concur on the look of VPI and SOTA tables.  And nothing in audio looks as sexy as a turntable.
  
 Looks like I'll have to take a good pic of my Michell GyroDec SE.


----------



## 13713

2015 was the year I got my SOTA. 2016 is year of the VPI... I have to represent!


----------



## bbophead

urbino said:


> Concur on the look of VPI and SOTA tables.  And nothing in audio looks as sexy as a turntable.
> 
> Looks like I'll have to take a good pic of my Michell GyroDec SE.


 

 Well, yeah.


----------



## dosley01

Just mounted a Soundsmith VPI Zephyr last week and I am super impressed.
  
 Also noticed this on the new Melody Gardot Currency of Man Import:


----------



## oaklandrichie

simon templar said:


> ....sT


 
 Wow, that's a beautiful turntable. I like the retro look.


----------



## alan_g




----------



## bbophead

I'm a sucka for colored vinyl.  Nice job!


----------



## urbino

bbophead said:


> Well, yeah.


 
 It'll be a few days.  I'm in the middle of reorganizing my whole music/computer room.


----------



## AK7579

I'll just leave this right here... http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/05/panasonics-technics-revival-has-a-new-direct-drive-sl-1200/#


----------



## ssrock64

ak7579 said:


> I'll just leave this right here... http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/05/panasonics-technics-revival-has-a-new-direct-drive-sl-1200/#


 

 Looks just like the two MKII models we use in the radio studio from the top. I've always loved the way these units look.


----------



## Hifi59

Pro-ject Xtension 10 with Sumiko Blackbird Cartridge .


----------



## urbino

hifi59 said:


> Pro-ject Xtension 10 with Sumiko Blackbird Cartridge .


 
  
 Sweet.  How do you like the Blackbird?  Had my eye on that one a long time.


----------



## bbophead

I loves shiny things.


----------



## Hifi59

Hi

The Blackbird is a huge bargain even at its price of 1250.00. My audio is professionally 
calibrated I have tried other cartridges over the years and I keep coming back to the BB. 
I even owned the Sumiko Celebration 2 and while it's a superb cartridge, something was missing. 
It did dig a touch deeper than the Bb but it lack the emotional connection that I get with the BB. 
It is butter smooth yet impactful. Totally grainlesss and to ally engaging. I love it so much that
I bought a spare just in case. The synergy it has with the X tension is fantastic. I also had it mounted in a rpm-9.1
And it too sounded great I hope this helped. 

Regards
Mike


----------



## urbino

hifi59 said:


> Hi
> 
> The Blackbird is a huge bargain even at its price of 1250.00. My audio is professionally
> calibrated I have tried other cartridges over the years and I keep coming back to the BB.
> ...


 
  
 It did, indeed.
  
 The world of cartridges is so large and intriguing.  (Like headphones, only more so.)  A fella could get lost in it for a very long time.


----------



## dosley01

urbino said:


> It did, indeed.
> 
> The world of cartridges is so large and intriguing.  (Like headphones, only more so.)  A fella could get lost in it for a very long time.


 
  
 Cartridges make headphones seem cheap!


----------



## urbino

dosley01 said:


> Cartridges make headphones seem cheap!


 
  
 That, too.  I've stayed in the shallow end so far, though.


----------



## parbaked

same old P2


----------



## Clayton SF

TRUTH be told @parbaked. You've got a great collection of vinyl!


----------



## Silent One

parbaked said:


> same old P2


 
 Simple elegance.


----------



## urbino

urbino said:


> It'll be a few days.  I'm in the middle of reorganizing my whole music/computer room.


 
  
 Well, the reorg is taking longer than expected.  When you have to break out the circular saw, you know it's gonna be a minute. 
  
 In the meantime, here's what my 'table looks like:
  

  
 The guy I bought it from didn't want to sell it, but his cats found it a little too interesting when it was spinning.


----------



## natemact

While it may not be the looker that was my VPI Classic w/periphery ring and center weight, it's instead where the stylus meets the groove that the Amadeus has the Classic clearly beat...and it's MSRP was nearly $1K less than my Classic to boot...not to mention the Amadeus ended up kicking an 8yr old off the top shelf of my audio rack...uhhhhhhhh, whatever.
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



  
  


  
 It's not very often in this hobby you can upgrade your system by purchasing a component 3/4 the cost of your outgoing one, but that was exactly my experience here I just wanna give Bill Firebaugh a big ol' kiss!
  

  
 My attempt at being artsy


----------



## Krutsch

natemact said:


> My attempt at being artsy


 
  
 Mission accomplished ... very elegant looking.


----------



## natemact

Ya, I've seen some beautiful shots in here so I thought I'd give it a go. Thanks @Krutsch


----------



## urbino

natemact said:


> My attempt at being artsy


 
  
 Another cartridge I've had on my wish list for a long while.


----------



## natemact

Just going back through members turntable photos in this thread. For me, @]eep takes the cake for best photo/s with his stunning shots of his Clearaudio Performance w/Koetsu Urushi. ]eep, if your not already well into photography as a hobby I can say you definitely have an eye for it. Well done!
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Originally Posted by *]eep* /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 Looking for a new angle. I was preparing some of my overstock for sale when I found this nice emerald colored Bad Company bootleg. You would almost think it's a McIntosh with that colour. It difficult colour to display on my monitor with the intense blue-green, but I think it should be ok as desktop. This time a tried a fill-in flash too. Hope you like.


----------



## ]eep

Thank you.  
Maybe hobby is not the right word for it, I just appreciate beauty and try to capture the essence.


----------



## natemact

Well said @]eep )


----------



## snapontom

Going out this week for a refurbish.


----------



## bfin3

My pyon ultima before I sold it...


----------



## bbophead

Looks very exotic. 
  
 Details?


----------



## ]eep

natemact said:


> My attempt at being artsy




There is no try, only do.


----------



## Redcarmoose




----------



## vapman

@Redcarmoose I have no idea what that it but I want it


----------



## Redcarmoose

vapman said:


> @Redcarmoose
> I have no idea what that it but I want it :eek:




Well the record is an English import called a castle remaster of Master of Reality from around 2000, the player is a VPI Scout.


----------



## vapman

Oh I'm quite familiar with the record, though now I know what table to watch for on ebay ;D


----------



## Redcarmoose

vapman said:


> Oh I'm quite familiar with the record, though now I know what table to watch for on ebay ;D





My turntable before was an older Thorens so the change was a big one. The spring raised Thorens had an airy resonance that the VPI has all but removed from the character. Your just left with a nice dry-detailed smoothness. I was also surprised how the tracking seemed get the needle down farther and removed some of the surface noise and pops from records I had listened to for years. 

But, in all they are easy to set-up and don't seem maybe as rickety as some. Still I'm no expert even though I guess I've had maybe 10 turntables over the years?


----------



## vapman

What a coincidence as I just passed on my thorens td165 to my sister, maybe it's a natural upgrade path from the thorens?

I had a few 1200s but got sick of all of them


----------



## Redcarmoose

vapman said:


> What a coincidence as I just passed on my thorens td165 to my sister, maybe it's a natural upgrade path from the thorens?
> 
> I had a few 1200s but got sick of all of them




I've had two 1200s. They are the toughest turntable. Seen them thrown out of cars and work fine. But ya, I guess just reading on the internet got me interested in old Thorens turntables. One thing my TD160 did was make those thin new wave records from 1981-1984 sound more organic and fun. They seemed to add body, where the VPI does U-turns faster and just gets more all around clarity. IMO less fog?

I guess it depends on what sound your after and what other equipment you have. Still I had never heard a detailed soundstage or reality of character like the VPI. Though the phono pre choice helped me too. I had gone six months with the wrong phono pre and actually didn't know what I was missing?


----------



## Monoespacio

My latest upgrade. Ortofon 2M Bronze.
  
 : )


----------



## 13713

monoespacio said:


> My latest upgrade. Ortofon 2M Bronze.
> 
> : )




Welcome to the dark world of cartridges. It only gets more expensive now.


----------



## bbophead

monoespacio said:


> My latest upgrade. Ortofon 2M Bronze.
> 
> : )


 

 Very nice indeed.  My Black.  
  
 Your pic is better.


----------



## urbino

monoespacio said:


> My latest upgrade. Ortofon 2M Bronze.
> 
> : )


 
  
 Sweet.  I'm still running a Red.  I've got an Audio-Technica OC9ML/II still sitting in the box, waiting for me to put it to use.


----------



## 62ohm

Just picked up a turntable today (and a phono preamp, for sure). Pro-Ject Debut Carbon and Pro-Ject Phono Box, and already I can see myself getting either a 2M Blue or a 2M Bronze cartridge in the near future 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  

  
 Currently listeting to Fleetwood Mac - Tusk.
  
  
 Will get a photographer friend to come and take decent photo(s) of it soon.


----------



## 62ohm

Question though guys: does it make sense (in other word, is it stupid) to get a cartridge that cost as much as the turntable itself?


----------



## 13713

62ohm said:


> Question though guys: does it make sense (in other word, is it stupid) to get a cartridge that cost as much as the turntable itself?




Depends on a lot of factors. What are you trying to accomplish with your source? And how does the rest of your gear hold up. Cartridges are a rabbit hole all to themselves.


----------



## 62ohm

13713 said:


> Depends on a lot of factors. What are you trying to accomplish with your source? And how does the rest of your gear hold up. Cartridges are a rabbit hole all to themselves.


 
  
 At the moment my turntable is much warmer than my DACs (see sig), and I intend to keep it that way. So I guess I would like to add more clarity and better instrument separation, without making it sound brighter.


----------



## urbino

62ohm said:


> Question though guys: does it make sense (in other word, is it stupid) to get a cartridge that cost as much as the turntable itself?


 
  
 The cartridge is the thing actually turning the bumps in the vinyl into a music signal, so, between some fairly low minimum and pretty astronomical maximum 'table price, it probably makes sense to spend _more_ on the cartridge.  Strictly speaking, the 'table's job is just to drag the bumps along the needle so the cartridge can explore them and turn them into electricity.  It provides a level, stable, acoustically inert platform that rotates at a constant speed.
  
 Of course, my own setup doesn't follow that logic, but that's down to laziness at least as much as anything else.


----------



## liamstrain

Got this set up at my desk for now, and enjoying it immensely. 
  
 Pioneer PL-530 with Grado GF-3 cartridge (Denon DL-110 high output MC on the way) --> Pro-ject MM phonostage --> Bottlehead Crack --> HD600s


----------



## urbino

liamstrain said:


> Got this set up at my desk for now, and enjoying it immensely.
> 
> Pioneer PL-530 with Grado GF-3 cartridge (Denon DL-110 high output MC on the way) --> Pro-ject MM phonostage --> Bottlehead Crack --> HD600s


 
  
 Nice and compact for an analog rig.  I dig it.


----------



## 62ohm

My best attempt at taking photogenic picture with a smartphone..


----------



## sterling1

Still playin' after all these years, Shure V15V-MR.


----------



## bbophead

Oh, yeah.
  
 Had Type II and Type V. 
  
 A great cartridge and tracker supreme.
  
 Thanks for the pic.


----------



## ]eep

62ohm said:


> Question though guys: does it make sense (in other word, is it stupid) to get a cartridge that cost as much as the turntable itself?



In your case: yes, very much so. And something I have never regretted even when advised otherwise (Dual 505-III with HO-MC, Linn Axis with Milltek Aurora, AT-OC9 and Karat DV17-Mk2, Pro-Ject Perspective with DV, ClearAudio Performance with Urushi). Downgrading always gave me severe withdrawal symptoms.

It all depends etc, and so on, bla bla.... Some gear are good as they are, and some allow for a lot better auxiliaries. Sometimes called scalability. Some gear scales great and seem to increase in quality as source, amplification or transducers get better, and others just are nice 'as is'. The better stuff just keeps on growing as you throw more money at it while others are just a money pit. What I found out over the years that gear that scales well is often simple but well engineered. The bad ones are complicated, over-engineered and over-compensated. Doing the right things right vs cutting corners. The talented show promise but might not start all that well while others work their butts off but soon stop growing.


----------



## Redcarmoose

62ohm said:


> Question though guys: does it make sense (in other word, is it stupid) to get a cartridge that cost as much as the turntable itself?




There are many ideas about this and most are not going to give a strict opinion on the subject. My cartridge is only 1/4 of the cost of my turntable. That said could you put a $3000 cartridge on a 1200? Yes, and it would sound amazing. I have heard a $25k cartridge on a $10K table and stuff starts to get confusing in my opinion. It's maybe a complicated subject with a ton of convolution abound. At the moment I'm listening to $35 headphones with a pair of $2500 interconnects? It's a strange hobby which is always challenging the issues of common sense and mental stability. IMO

.......especially if your married.


----------



## Redcarmoose

sterling1 said:


> Still playin' after all these years, Shure V15V-MR.




Such a classic and amazing cartridge, I had one at one time. A tracking legend and maybe a perfect example of how a slightly expensive cartridge could "fix" and upgrade many a turntable.


----------



## shaizada




----------



## urbino

shaizada said:


>


 
  
 Dual-tonearm setups are wicked cool.
  
 What's the gizmo in the second pic?


----------



## Redcarmoose

Domestic Dispute Digital Annex


----------



## shaizada

urbino said:


> Dual-tonearm setups are wicked cool.
> 
> What's the gizmo in the second pic?


 
 This is the Townshend Rock 7 turntable.  It has a dampening trough that goes over the record which is filled with silicone.  Then a paddle extension attached to the tonearm makes contact with this silicone through the record playback and dampens all the vibrations at the headshell source.  Very cool and works splendidly 
  
 Read more here:
 http://www.townshendaudio.com/the-rock-7/


----------



## shaizada

Here are some much better pictures of some tables I run right now:


----------



## analogsurviver

I think these guys need as much help as possible : 
  

  

  
 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1906610871/newvelle-records-world-class-music-only-on-vinyl


----------



## bbophead

Not only do you have to decide what music to play but which armwand/cartridge/table, etc. to play also.
  
 Very impressive!


----------



## Skylab

Very nice, Shaizada! Wow! And beautiful DP-59L


----------



## shaizada

skylab said:


> Very nice, Shaizada! Wow! And beautiful DP-59L


 
 Thanks!! The Denon DP-59L is great!  Really like that table.  I actually have two direct drives....here is the other one I missed, a Sony PS-X700 Biotracer.


----------



## Monoespacio

The GF browsing through some records. Pictured is my Rega RP1 with a couple of mods.


----------



## bbophead

Nice looking system.


----------



## Monoespacio

bbophead said:


> Nice looking system.


 

 Thanks!


----------



## liamstrain

I just got a Dual 1019 for parts (for my other 1019), and it came with an Empire 888VE cartridge mounted on the sled (sans stylus).

 Found an aftermarket eliptical stylus for it, and got it mounted to my Pioneer PL-530. Very much enjoying it. It has a more rounded, less analytical sound to my ears than my regular Denon DL-110 - makes for a nice contrast. 

Might see if I can find a better quality stylus down the road - but this is a really solid find.


----------



## 62ohm

No idea where to ask this, so I guess I'll try asking it here
  
  
 Which cartridge do you guys think is overall 'better' or, if you can elaborate a bit more, what differentiates both of them? Ortofon 2M Blue vs Clearaudio Performer v2 MM. They both cost exactly the same here and, while info regarding the 2M Blue are easily available I can't really find any review about the Performer v2. Any input would be appreciated, thanks.


----------



## ]eep

I don't know if this review is any help? If you interpolate the last lines comparing the topmodels (with hyperelliptical needles) for simples nude elliptical needles, it is implied that the Clearaudio has a better engine, better body. I think the Clearaudio is made with a lot more attention to detail, and this shows up in channel separation and -balance which are significantly better. 

If the price is the same I would take the Clearaudio instantly. You can say that is has an interchangable/upgradable needle, but that is almost the same price as a complete new cartridge which invalidates the entire argument. ($236 vs $236 while the CA is $400) 

I was just reading on a German site (comparing prices and consumer opinions) and found one buyer who upgraded exactly from the Blue to the Performer V2. So someone who knew the Blue intimately. And he was very happy with the upgrade. He discribed it as: "Brilliant highs, fullbodied welldifined bass, very good differentiation of details, while maintaining a coherent soundstage and smooth sound. Great! A minor flaw is the slight tendency for sibilance mainly on higher female voices. But I can live with that."[FYI: he built it in himself, being a novice with big hands, so it might be slightly off]. The craftsmanship of the ebony body gave him a big smile because it feels and looks very expensive. 



> Ich habe das Performer V2 schon vor einiger Zeit bei einem der Technikabende kennengelernt und es mir kürzlich angeschafft, weil ich von meinem bisherigen Ortofon 2M Blue einen Schritt nach oben machen wollte. Schon nach einer Woche kann ich sagen, dass sich die 300 Euro voll gelohnt haben: Brillante Höhen, satte, klar definierte Bässe und ein hohes Differenzierungsvermögen – bei alledem aber dennoch ein homogenes, weiches Klangbild. Toll! Als einzige Einschränkung wäre eine leichte Neigung zu zischelnden S-Lauten vor allem bei höheren Frauenstimmen zu nennen; damit kann ich aber gut leben.




Another user upgraded from the Red, and he stated the upgrade was 'unbelievable'. So I think this answers your question pretty much.


----------



## 62ohm

]eep said:


> I don't know if this review is any help? If you interpolate the last lines comparing the topmodels (with hyperelliptical needles) for simples nude elliptical needles, it is implied that the Clearaudio has a better engine, better body. I think the Clearaudio is made with a lot more attention to detail, and this shows up in channel separation and -balance which are significantly better.
> 
> If the price is the same I would take the Clearaudio instantly. You can say that is has an interchangable/upgradable needle, but that is almost the same price as a complete new cartridge which invalidates the entire argument. ($236 vs $236 while the CA is $400)
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you very much for this! Definitely clears things up for me.
  
 So I take it the MSRP of the Performer V2 is actually higher than the 2M Blue, but for some reason Ortofon Cartridges might cost more than they should here in NZ. I don't know how much these cartridges costs in Europe, here 2M Blue costs roughly $250 USD, $450 USD for 2M Bronze and $750 USD for 2M Black.


----------



## liamstrain

fwiw - I really like the Denon 110 high-output MC better than the Ortofon blue MM and similar price. Much better detail and separation. I have not tried the ClearAudio.


----------



## bbophead

62ohm said:


> ]eep said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know if this review is any help? If you interpolate the last lines comparing the topmodels (with hyperelliptical needles) for simples nude elliptical needles, it is implied that the Clearaudio has a better engine, better body. I think the Clearaudio is made with a lot more attention to detail, and this shows up in channel separation and -balance which are significantly better.
> ...


 

 Very close to US prices.


----------



## ]eep

Those were the US prices  (Needledoctor)

EU price (Phonophono.de some have discount)
Ortofon 2M Blue: €190
Bronze €320
Black €580
Denon DL110 €196 (cheap in comparison)
ClearAudio Performer V2 €298
Goldring G1006 €240
Dynavector 10X5 €495
ClearAudio Artist V2 €498


----------



## 62ohm

]eep said:


> Those were the US prices  (Needledoctor)
> 
> EU price (Phonophono.de some have discount)
> *Ortofon 2M Blue: €190*
> ...


 
  
 This is my point, as the person on the German site 'upgraded' from the 2M Blue to the Performer V2 I suspect the Performer V2 actually costs more there. If that's the case, then the Performer V2 would definitely be the better buy than the 2M Blue here considering they costs exactly the same.


----------



## JazzVinyl

This is my 2nd table...main table is a Well Tempered Classic...


----------



## ]eep

Yup. As was my point. But my favorite would still be the DV 10x5 (because I really prefer MC HO or LO). But I can't look in your wallet...


----------



## 62ohm

]eep said:


> Yup. As was my point. But my favorite would still be the DV 10x5 (because I really prefer MC HO or LO). But I can't look in your wallet...


 
  
 I don't think I want to get an MC just yet


----------



## bbophead

jazzvinyl said:


> This is my 2nd table...main table is a Well Tempered Classic...


 

 Neat looking.  What purple vinyl jazz record is that?


----------



## loonacy

Rega RP3 with Peachtree Decco 2 and Schiit Mani


Someone needs to clean up those wires lol


----------



## bbophead

Nice looking setup.  Wires always look bad.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 If it were me, tho', I'd get that TT up to eye level.  Too much awkward cueing and bending for this ol' boy.


----------



## dosley01

bbophead said:


> Nice looking setup.  Wires always look bad.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Get's it above Kid level in my house.


----------



## loonacy

bbophead said:


> Nice looking setup.  Wires always look bad.
> 
> If it were me, tho', I'd get that TT up to eye level.  Too much awkward cueing and bending for this ol' boy.




My plan is to move the TT to the top as soon as I get a new stand. The one I have gets narrower at the top and my TT won't fit. I need to do something soon all this bending down to change records is getting old lol


----------



## bbophead

To dosley01:
  
 Ahh, VPI/Rogue/Martin-Logan.  Bet that sounds excellent!


----------



## dosley01

bbophead said:


> To dosley01:
> 
> Ahh, VPI/Rogue/Martin-Logan.  Bet that sounds excellent!


 
  
 I've had various ML speakers and I always felt they sounded a bit lean until I went Rogue/Tube.  That 15+ year old Eighty Eight amp running 40W in Triode mode replaced a 200Wpc solid state amp and I can't say I would ever go back.   I have also tried the Stereo 90 and found with my listening habits, I just didn't need the extra power.  The 88 is like the little engine that could.  The only problem is with 18 tubes from phono/pre/power the tube rolling combinations are endless.


----------



## 62ohm

Out of curiosity, which turntable would you guys choose between Clearaudio Concept and Music Hall MMF 9.1?


----------



## liamstrain

Between the two, I prefer the MMF - but that's just on aesthetics. I expect sonically, they are comparable. Speaking personally, and for my kind of budget, I'd probably get a lesser model turntable, and sink the extra money into a better cartridge.


----------



## snapontom

Which one is better looking to you?  That's the one.  Here's a good looking TT front end, imho.


----------



## Bob A (SD)

shaizada said:


>


 
  
 I had something like that way way back when on my AR/XA.  It was a DIY fluid damper made from a small horizontal paddle (about 1/4 the size of a postage stamp) affixed to my tonearm by a stiff thin vertical wire and nylon clamp not far from the pivot.  The paddle rode in a "trough" of STP. Worked quite well.   I think the documentation for it was contained in this article:  James Brinton, "Tone Arm Damping: The Overlooked Feature", High Fidelity Magazine, July 1975, pp. 45-48.  Unfortunately I don't have a copy.  It is archived for members only (I'm not) on VinylEngine http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=45688
  
 Then there was the Discwasher Disctracker that had a tiny pneumatic damped cylinder with a non-static pad affixed to the headshell screws that rode on the record surface.
  
 Over the years there have been a multitude of designs to add fluid damping to tonearms that didn't have the feature built-in.


----------



## urbino

62ohm said:


> Out of curiosity, which turntable would you guys choose between Clearaudio Concept and Music Hall MMF 9.1?


 
  
 I've never owned any Music Hall gear, personally, but I've heard a lot of complaints about Roy's customer service/support.  Clearaudio would get my vote.


----------



## 62ohm

liamstrain said:


> Between the two, I prefer the MMF - but that's just on aesthetics. I expect sonically, they are comparable. Speaking personally, and for my kind of budget, I'd probably get a lesser model turntable, and sink the extra money into a better cartridge.


 
  
 Same goes for me, to be honest.. I like the aesthetics of the MMF more than the Clearaudio, no idea about sound though - no way for me to try both live.
  


urbino said:


> I've never owned any Music Hall gear, personally, but I've heard a lot of complaints about Roy's customer service/support.  Clearaudio would get my vote.


 
  
 That's a surprise... I'm sort of planning ahead on what my "end-game" turntable going to be, and that is definitely something to consider.
  
  
  
  
  
 On another note, I cannot believe how good Dire Straits' vinyl sounds


----------



## dosley01

62ohm said:


> Out of curiosity, which turntable would you guys choose between Clearaudio Concept and Music Hall MMF 9.1?


 
  
 Having owned Clearaudio and Music Hall tables, the build quality is better with the Clearaudio.   I really considered a MMF-11 when they were being cleared out for the 11.1 but even at 1/2 price there nothing there to really justify $2500. 
  
 Lot's of painted MDF and a delicate tonearm.  Even the platter bearing seems cheap. 
  
 That being said, I really enjoyed my time with the MMF-7 I had, it sounded great.
  
 In this price range I would also look into the Marantz TT15S1, you get a Clearaudio Emotion with a $800 cartridge.  It's got to be the best bargain right now in tables.  Easily on par (if not better sounding) with a MMF 9.1 for less money.
  
 As far as dealing with Roy Hall, I received nothing but great service from him and I had to contact him 3-4 times.  As long as you accept his personality, he is great.
  
 I'm a VPI Fanboy so I'd say get a Scout, built for a lifetime and sounds better than all the above.


----------



## 62ohm

dosley01 said:


> Having owned Clearaudio and Music Hall tables, the build quality is better with the Clearaudio.   I really considered a MMF-11 when they were being cleared out for the 11.1 but even at 1/2 price there nothing there to really justify $2500.
> 
> Lot's of painted MDF and a delicate tonearm.  Even the platter bearing seems cheap.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The thing is the Clearaudio Concept costs $2,000 NZD here (inc cartridge), MMF 9.1 costs $2,500 without cartridge, and the VPI Scout costs $5,700...
  
 There seem to be no shop currently selling the Marantz TT15S1 here, and the last shop to sell it seem to be selling it for $3,250.


----------



## dosley01

Yikes!!!  I'd get the concept and spend the rest on vinyl then.


----------



## 62ohm

I assume the VPI Scout cost much less than that in the US then? With the current conversion rate, the Scout costs $3,800 USD here..


----------



## dosley01

The Scout 1.1 with the aluminum platter is $1999 and the original with the acrylic platter is $1499.


----------



## 62ohm

ah, the one that costs $3800 USD was the Scout II. Still, the Scout 1.1 with the aluminium platter costs $3,000 USD here


----------



## 62ohm

What about the Michell Gyro SE? Seems like it costs well within my budget (in the foreseeable future 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 Clearaudio Concept: $2,000 (NZD)
 Music Hall MMF 9.1: $2,500
 Michell Gyro SE: $3,000
  
  
 Right now I have to admit my interest in the MMF 9.1 is running thin. So I guess it's either the Clearaudio or the Gyro SE, and I'm under the impression the Gyro is totally in a whole different league.


----------



## bbophead

Geez, no love for Rega around here.  Oh, well.


----------



## urbino

62ohm said:


> What about the Michell Gyro SE? Seems like it costs well within my budget (in the foreseeable future
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well that happens to be the 'table I own, and I couldn't be happier with it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It takes a while to set up, but once it's done, it's done, and it sounds like a million bucks.  And how many turntables can say their design was based on a space station?  (Mr. Michell designed and built the model for the space station in "2001: A Space Odyssey", and says it influenced his Gyro design.)


----------



## liamstrain

Got the new Bowie album. Gorgeous artwork - black varnish over black washed photographs. Sounds amazing too. Thought it was worth another shot of my office/desk rig.


----------



## Redcarmoose

liamstrain said:


> Got the new Bowie album. Gorgeous artwork - black varnish over black washed photographs. Sounds amazing too. Thought it was worth another shot of my office/desk rig.




I used to own a Pioneer PL-530. I used it for a radio show where it could be turned off and the signal would still come from the stylus. On the radio it was the sound of a Dixie Land Jazz band slowly slowing down then after 60 seconds or so the sound of the music grinding to a stop. A DJ effect we could never get from the Technics1200s at the time.


----------



## Redcarmoose

http://www.amazon.com/TECHNICS-SL-1200MK2-Turntable-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B00006I5VX

Don't go on Amazon for a 1200, they are discontinued. Still Technics is bringing them back at 4K a pop.


----------



## liamstrain

Yeesh - they are in tough competition at that  price point. You could get one on ebay, and spend $500 tuning it up, and put a 2K cartridge on it for that money. Or just get a killer VPI.


----------



## Redcarmoose

liamstrain said:


> Yeesh - they are in tough competition at that  price point. You could get one on ebay, and spend $500 tuning it up, and put a 2K cartridge on it for that money. Or just get a killer VPI.




Yes, it will be like a movie to watch what happens and what people think. 2 models but both $4000 as I understand it. Still they are making some changes and improvements. At the price point they look to be going into the audiophile market. Don't know if they have ever been viewed exactly that way. They were great turntables and really really well made but still became a legend due to how you could DJ with em.
They sounded great in the early form, fun to see where they get improved to?


----------



## Monoespacio

I love the way white vinyl looks on my current setup. Rega RP1 + Ortofon 2M Bronze.


----------



## bbophead

monoespacio said:


> I love the way white vinyl looks on my current setup. Rega RP1 + Ortofon 2M Bronze.


 

 I love it. too.


----------



## loonacy

Got a new Ortofon Bronze today and WOW!!!! It is just amazing on the RP3!


----------



## Krutsch

monoespacio said:


> I love the way white vinyl looks on my current setup. Rega RP1 + Ortofon 2M Bronze.


 

 Wow. That is su-weet looking. Well done.


----------



## analogsurviver

redcarmoose said:


> Yes, it will be like a movie to watch what happens and what people think. 2 models but both $4000 as I understand it. Still they are making some changes and improvements. At the price point they look to be going into the audiophile market. Don't know if they have ever been viewed exactly that way. They were great turntables and really really well made but still became a legend due to how you could DJ with em.
> They sounded great in the early form, fun to see where they get improved to?


 
 The biggest improvement is in the - claimed - cogless motor. Otherwise, I am sad they went the safe 1200-ish way; Technics did produce quite some better TTs back in the day, but withdrew them from the production after a very short time - as they were better than their TOTL designs - let alone 1200. Monitoring the used market will reveal which models that were.
  
 If the new drive is actually working as well as claimed, it should be quite a contender. I find the omission of the external power supply in this day and age and MSRP a serious drawback. No turntable should allow AC anywhere where it can influence the operation either in mechanical, electrical or magnetic way. Mission imposible if the AC enters the deck itself.


----------



## bbophead

loonacy said:


> Got a new Ortofon Bronze today and WOW!!!! It is just amazing on the RP3!


 

 Congrats!  What's spinning?


----------



## loonacy

bbophead said:


> Congrats!  What's spinning?




Stone Temple Pilots "Core"


----------



## loonacy

Got the wires cleaned up today


----------



## bbophead

loonacy said:


> Got the wires cleaned up today


 

 Aww, NICE!


----------



## Redcarmoose

analogsurviver said:


> The biggest improvement is in the - claimed - cogless motor. Otherwise, I am sad they went the safe 1200-ish way; Technics did produce quite some better TTs back in the day, but withdrew them from the production after a very short time - as they were better than their TOTL designs - let alone 1200. Monitoring the used market will reveal which models that were.
> 
> If the new drive is actually working as well as claimed, it should be quite a contender. I find the omission of the external power supply in this day and age and MSRP a serious drawback. No turntable should allow AC anywhere where it can influence the operation either in mechanical, electrical or magnetic way. Mission imposible if the AC enters the deck itself.


 
  
  
 I'm far more into music than turntables, even though I can see the rabbit-hole for all the engineering imagination going on. A device which started as Edison's cylinder which has then been spoon-fed slow technological developments on and on till today. Just the simple fact that the format is actually gaining popularity as we speak, running away in some regards from the latest in USB digital technology is both strange and surreal. The fact that turntable technology is better now than ever in history.
  
 The coming 3D printed cartridge, or the $70,000 printed turntable made by the school-boy for his science project? Maybe? It may just never end?
  
 Just the pure implications of edge-pseudo-science bordering on the unexplainable with new-age-paranormal-physics-phenomena unknown by common man, still that mystery and the possible audiophile truth, enables manufactures and designers to get crazy, imaginative and rich just exploiting the funds from the gullible. Ask the guy why his expensive cartridge improves the sound and get the story and sparkle in his eyes. It's all about a story. That is why they will sell some of those $4000 turntables which used to sell for $499 if I remember right?
  
  
 The fact that music is actually coming out of those little scratches, what the hell? It's magic.


----------



## bbophead

LIKE!


----------



## penmarker

Oh yeah fun scientific fact: record grooves are cut using unicorn horns, and the stylus tips are actually made using babelfish tooth to translate groove lefty rightys into music. But everything else down the chain is purely magic though, only those two are science.


----------



## analogsurviver

redcarmoose said:


> I'm far more into music than turntables, even though I can see the rabbit-hole for all the engineering imagination going on. A device which started as Edison's cylinder which has then been spoon-fed slow technological developments on and on till today. Just the simple fact that the format is actually gaining popularity as we speak, running away in some regards from the latest in USB digital technology is both strange and surreal. The fact that turntable technology is better now than ever in history.
> 
> The coming 3D printed cartridge, or the $70,000 printed turntable made by the school-boy for his science project? Maybe? It may just never end?
> 
> ...


 
 Hehe, to a point I certainly can agree with you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 However, I started some time ago a project/research what can be done to bring analog turntable up in performance enough to be palatable to a guy that has been raised on CD - in most of its parameters that are usually below the quality achieved by digital - while retaining positive attributes  of  analog, which digital lacks.
  
 I can not agree that music coming out of those little scratches is magic - it is hard, super hard work to get it right. And result of all the science that went into it - along with any number of desires to make it closer to perfection.
  
 No, I do not see a guy with a sparkle in his eyes solely because of the high price and/or story behind his expensive cartridge. The same sparkle can be observed with a guy ( or gal ) with a perfectly adjusted decent cartridge - and that can be the level of approximately Audio Technica AT-440ML ( without, a, b, whatever ) - which is roughly $200 cart. Not cheap, creeping steadily in price up (and in quality down...), but not insane price either. And I did see lackluster eyes of owners of super duper expensive gear that was either set up poorly - or downright defective. It is a bit embarrassing to admit that the wheels on one's new Rolls Royce are not perfectly  round/trued - as it would start ridicule from the owners of much lesser cars that happen to have at least round wheels - per default.
  
 $499 back in the day did buy one much more than $499 does today - so it is not directly comparable, the new table from Technics is not 8 times as expensive as the original. I agree it is a bit steep, whether or not its improvements are real or not will be known after some objective testing and real life experience, both of which will realistically be available by the end of the year. If it actually delivers as promised, it may well prove to be a bargain - relative to competition in new turntables in today's market. 
  
 There is a TT that has even more precise and even performance - at some 5+ times the price of the new Technics. And there are gems in the vintage TTs that can be brought to a comparable performance and initially they cost very reasonable money. So, to each his/hers own - no generalizations universally applicable.


----------



## Mojo777

Any opinions on the Espirit SB vs Nomad? Looking to get a setup for $750-ish

Other recommendations are welcome. I understand I'd need to get a phono amp if I opt for something different than the Nomad


----------



## Redcarmoose

analogsurviver said:


> Hehe, to a point I certainly can agree with you  .
> 
> However, I started some time ago a project/research what can be done to bring analog turntable up in performance enough to be palatable to a guy that has been raised on CD - in most of its parameters that are usually below the quality achieved by digital - while retaining positive attributes  of  analog, which digital lacks.
> 
> ...




My write was half-joking. 

Just swapping ideas around and looking and listening at parallels in life. I'm now looking at a new guitar and as an audiophile it is truly amazing how many parallels there are.

Many scientific folk on Head-Fi never want to go over the visual ideas of placebo but I completely believe in it. The fact that as a machine turntables are really, really beautiful things made by man. Not only that but they have a quiet smoothness of operation that has an opiate effect on the owners. In life so much is uncontrollable and to come home and see this thing and turn it on and have it do what it is designed to do. The fact that it can produce music and be slightly adjusted with the understanding of science principles for an improvement. It shows that things in life can be controlled with education and application.

"If this thing is so expensive and beautiful it must sound good" There is no true science in the statement but I have found that many really beautiful things in life have turned out to be delicate. Still basicly contemplating why that could be? 

What I'm getting at is placebo here. The only reason I bring it up is I have fallen for the results many times so I do know it's real at times. Looking at guitars it's again so much like turntables. The fact that they make them beautiful. Les Paul actually choose the woman's form for his first electric body, still all guitars look like a gals body if you study them. Cars actually have the design of a woman's body in them also, where early corvette designs maybe rule that idea.

Guitars and turntables can be purchased by a trusted manufacture who has garnered a reputation for applying the inovation and science which came before. The oldest known string instrument found was 4000 years old, so string musical instruments have a slight jumpstart on our turntable, still so many parallel concepts. 

Not only must they perform but continue to perform at a finite tolerance. Late night listening sessions have occurred when all the scientific and emotional ingredients have solidified, resulting in an almost transcending experience. Having materials which bow and sway to both construction and atmospheric conditions a fact of life. Another fact is some machines are better than others. 

It was this challenge to the elements that made the 1200s a name for themselves. They took many of the variables out and made a workhorse of a turntable which could be taken out in the field.



The truth is we can place a carved rose on a guitar ( guess where?) and it starts to sound better. If a woman performer walked out onstage in the cloths they do yard-work in, would it put an effect on what we hear, add different cloths and........................ What about understanding technology. My point in the above post was that much of the time just the imagination of thinking we understand technology helps us to start to enjoy a piece of musical equipment. Of course there are true real advancements created, still we know chrome amp faceplates sound better than gray ones in the end for everyone.


The fact that learning about the real science and unreal pseudo science helps give us the Prudential insurance package that all is going to be "OK" in the end. At times we need these handholds even though we are using our intellect and ears to full ability.

Just the simple fact that a guitar maker who makes custom guitars has to sell his first handmade project for 1/4 of what the later ones sell for. There is no reputation or love for the product. It's a baby which could or could not make it. 

With all of our knowledge and understanding we study and we use our ears but stuff still falls short. No famous musicians have signed our new guitar or new brand of turntable. We hope we have stumbled onto something but there is always that chance of failure. This is maybe where science and testing come in. Stuff can be measured by both technology and historic significance to perform as calculated. Still dress it up and add a story and it will do better in the end.

Strangely much of the science in guitars is in turntables. The ideas of controlled resonance and dampening. Our understanding of the musical properties of materials and their ability to fight atmospheric changes. The tuntable has only one moving resonating element, guitars more, still it is the slight play of these resonances which enable us to either win or lose. 

Flowers, guitars, female humans, music and turntables seem to start to reach the imagination of life very close to the primal core?


----------



## snapontom

My Thorens TD 124 is being refurbished.


----------



## Mojo777

Espirit SB


----------



## Happytalk

snapontom said:


> My Thorens TD 124 is being refurbished.  [ATTACHMENT=2016]IMG_5138.JPG (1,500k. JPG file)[/ATTACHMENT]




Beautiful. Who did you send it to? pm is fine.


----------



## snapontom

STS Turntables.  Ive found it better to put work in a pro's hands.


----------



## Mojo777

Well Pro ject Carbon Espirit lasted a few days in the house before I ended up getting this VPI Traveler new for a killer price! Wow, big difference in tables.


----------



## bbophead

Very nice set up indeed.


----------



## 62ohm

Have just ordered a Grado Gold1 cartridge, hope I won't be disappointed. Or rather, hope it would sound right with my Debut Carbon TT.


----------



## ssrock64

62ohm said:


> Have just ordered a Grado Gold1 cartridge, hope I won't be disappointed. Or rather, hope it would sound right with my Debut Carbon TT.


 

 I really enjoyed my time with the Blue1. Grado models are a great value, though they're not for everyone. Sometimes by Blue1 got a little congested, but I'd be willing to bet that the Gold1 fixes some of those issues.


----------



## vapman

ssrock64 said:


> I really enjoyed my time with the Blue1. Grado models are a great value, though they're not for everyone. Sometimes by Blue1 got a little congested, but I'd be willing to bet that the Gold1 fixes some of those issues.


 

 If you still have your Blue1 you might want to just upgrading the stylus, it's fairly well known that makes a huge difference in Grados 
  
 I forget which stylus exactly but there was one specific one that I put in a Grado DJ100 and it was a whole new cartridge. the stylus itself was $90 I think. Probably a better upgrade than buying the next nicest cart, too.


----------



## Krutsch

Unboxing albums from my youth, along with my Thorens TD-166 Mk II turntable, which have been in storage since 1988.
  
The Van Halen albums (I & II) are the vinyl I bought in Frankfurt am Main in '79 - still have the original price tag of DM 12.90 
  
​Will post pics of the 'table, when I am finished with my refurb project (new cartridge and drive belt). Hopefully it will just work... I can wait to listen to my old collection!


----------



## Mojo777

Okay I need to stop. Debut Carbon to VPI Traveler to now wait for it.............a VPI Classic in less than a month.
  
 I am so into vinyl right now. Wow!!!


----------



## 62ohm

I would do the same if I have the cash... Would probably go the Linn Majik or Michell Gyro route instead of VPI though, but basically same thing.


----------



## snapontom

I would recommend a cheap vinyl cleaner like Spin Clean to bring out the sound in your albums.  Albums can be as quiet as a CD.


----------



## Krutsch

It Lives! Bought this Thorens TD-166 Mk II in 1986 while I was in the Army. It's been in storage for 25 years, along with my vinyl collection.
  
 Added a replacement drive belt, anticipating that the old one would be dried-out (I was right); some De-oxit to the connectors on the tonearm and RCA plugs, adjusted the tracking force with a Shure stylus force gauge, set the anti-skate, and used a fresh Swiffer as a record cleaner... it all just worked.
  
 Sounds nice with the Woo and HD-650s, using my NAD C 162 as a phono preamp.


----------



## bbophead

Aww, HELL yeah!


----------



## urbino

krutsch said:


> It Lives! Bought this Thorens TD-166 Mk II in 1986 while I was in the Army. It's been in storage for 25 years, along with my vinyl collection.


 
 She cleaned up real nice!


----------



## calipilot227

snapontom said:


> I would recommend a cheap vinyl cleaner like Spin Clean to bring out the sound in your albums.  Albums can be as quiet as a CD.


 
  
 Skip the Spin Clean, get a proper vacuum cleaning machine like the Record Doctor V or KAB EV-1. Makes a huge difference.


----------



## ssrock64

vapman said:


> If you still have your Blue1 you might want to just upgrading the stylus, it's fairly well known that makes a huge difference in Grados
> 
> I forget which stylus exactly but there was one specific one that I put in a Grado DJ100 and it was a whole new cartridge. the stylus itself was $90 I think. Probably a better upgrade than buying the next nicest cart, too.


 

 I demoed an upgraded stylus at one point and would've probably eventually gone that direction had my setup in general not moved back in a digital direction. I don't use my TT enough right now to upgrade to a Black1 stylus.


----------



## 62ohm

Hey guys, what do you guys think about Dunlop Systemdek IIX? There's one for sale here where I can easily pick up, and it comes with RB300 arm and AT95E cartridge. About $550 USD, is it worth it? Would it make sense for me to get it and sell my Pro-Ject Debut Carbon?


----------



## 62ohm

More to that, I might be able to get it for $450 USD. Would it be worth it at $550? or should $450 be the max I pay for it?


----------



## liamstrain

I don't know if that's a good price for that rig, or if it's better than your Carbon. But it does seem like it was a pretty well respected table back at its release. It should perform fine with a modern cartridge.


----------



## 62ohm

Terribly disappointed with Pro-Ject - my Debut Carbon sort of died in about 3 months after purchase. Might pick up a Rega RP3 next month as my "end-game" turntable as the price would be reduced in the wake of the new P3 with RB330 arm.


----------



## Redcarmoose

mojo777 said:


> Okay I need to stop. Debut Carbon to VPI Traveler to now wait for it.............a VPI Classic in less than a month.
> 
> I am so into vinyl right now. Wow!!!




Wow!

Just keep it forever!


Cheers!


----------



## upstateguy




----------



## bbophead

Nice!  Had one of those back in the '80s.


----------



## John Giacobbe

Eee Pee,
  
 i think I have a similar setup HW19 Junior and just came into the same tonearm.  I have the AQ PT-6 now.
  
 Did you need a new plinth?  Any installation tips?
  
 Thanks,
  
 John


----------



## John Giacobbe

eee pee said:


> I got it back in the mid to late 90s with an Audioquest PT6 arm, upgraded platter and a mid tier Grado Prestige.  Then a Grado Sonata, then the Memorial arm.  It makes music!  I remember hearing this a lot, "Dude you got a whole room just for a stereo!?  Record player, too!?  Really!?"
> 
> Drop the needle on Dark Side Of The Moon...
> 
> Turn off the lights and then, "Dude you got glow in the dark stars everywhere!?"


 
 Eee Pee,
  
 i think I have a similar setup HW19 Junior and just came into the same tonearm.  I have the AQ PT-6 now.
  
 Did you need a new plinth?  Any installation tips?
  
 Thanks,
  
 John


----------



## Eee Pee

Mine came with the PT-6. I used the same plinth for the Memorial, and just drilled new holes for the Memorial. Is that what you were asking?


----------



## John Giacobbe

eee pee said:


> Mine came with the PT-6. I used the same plinth for the Memorial, and just drilled new holes for the Memorial. Is that what you were asking?


 

 That's exactly what I'm asking!  I have no idea how to do this.  Any advice?  Is it worth the effort?  Did you fill the previous holes, are they covered, or just exposed?  Thanks!


----------



## bbophead

Here's a photo, for a change.


----------



## Eee Pee

john giacobbe said:


> That's exactly what I'm asking!  I have no idea how to do this.  Any advice?  Is it worth the effort?  Did you fill the previous holes, are they covered, or just exposed?  Thanks!


 
  
 The PT-6 is fine. It's not great, it's not bad. The effort is minimial, the cost, well, that's up to you. The end result, yes, I like the VPI arm better. I didn't fill the holes, as the new ones were clocked almost perfectly between the old holes. I did use some measure (tools and swear words) to flatten out the old holes for a better mating surface. They're not exposed so you can't tell.
  
 And a current picture of the Traveler.


----------



## 13713

Bringing back pictures... My humble setup.


----------



## bbophead

13713 said:


> Bringing back pictures... My humble setup.


 

 Real nice!  Not humble at all.


----------



## Tympan

Daylight...
  
 versus
  
 night...


----------



## 13713

That is absolutely stunning Tympan


----------



## Tympan

Thank you! (I made it myself


----------



## bbophead

I would look at that all night long!
  
 Looks like a DJ setup with dueling 1200's.


----------



## Tympan

bbophead said:


> I would look at that all night long!
> 
> Looks like a DJ setup with dueling 1200's.


 
 Spot on! 1200 MK6 DJ classics (not a DJ myself but I've always had a bit of an obsession with turntables)


----------



## 13713

tympan said:


> Spot on! 1200 MK6 DJ classics (not a DJ myself but I've always had a bit of an obsession with turntables)




Such a huge iconic table for many of us growing up with the club scene. It really is an amazing conversation piece.


----------



## Tympan

Someone told me recently that these TT have been discontinued, I had no idea. This piece is in 3 pieces too, so it can be detached with just a turntable and no mixer. Someone insisted to buy one of the turntable alone so i real life, I only have the mixer and one TT left!
  

  
  
 ... Although, I still have a one piece 12" x 48" in green (these were limited editions, 8 models made, all unique in one way or another)
  

  

  
  
 Uups! I'm late for work, gotta go


----------



## Tympan

That was my last minimalist Turntable: customized Beogram 6500


----------



## bbophead

Love the green. 
  
 Former owner of 4002 and 4004.


----------



## Tympan

thx   Had both 4002, 4004 also (ex B&O hard core collector). Good looking 6500 but nowhere as good as as 4002/4004 with MMC20CL when it came to SQ only. Plus 4002/4004/4000 were also gorgeous imo


----------



## bbophead

Ready for some blue?


----------



## Audio Addict

bbophead said:


> Ready for some blue?




Now you went and made me blue


----------



## bbophead

audio addict said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > Ready for some blue?
> ...


 

 Show and tell.  That's the name of this website.


----------



## Tympan

I like blue


----------



## Hijodelbrx

How 'bout some white!?


----------



## Tympan

My favorite combo actually! Gorgeous! would look great on my white/green Beogram 6500, looks really nice on yours too. I like the tone arm, looks pretty reliable


----------



## bbophead

Salmon
  

  
 Pink


----------



## Tympan

Pink, definitely. With the pink panther behind (nice touch


----------



## bbophead

Thanks!
  
 I don't have a lot of colored vinyl but what I have, I play.
  
 Haven't played this but once.  Need to dig it out again.
  
 Red, my favorite neutral color.


----------



## JazzVinyl

bbophead said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I don't have a lot of colored vinyl but what I have, I play.
> 
> ...




Tomita and Vangelis' Blade Runner soundtrack!

Superb, both!

Enjoy!



.


----------



## Greyson

I ended up with two copies of a Thievery Corporation album (one clear, one black) that i've kept just because I like using the clear one for pictures.


----------



## 13713

Do I need to purchase another turntable to keep this thread going?


----------



## 62ohm

Get this one, mate. Beautiful table..
  

  
  
 Pro-Ject Classic 25th Anniversary Edition. If only it comes with RB303/330/808 arm....


----------



## soundfanz

My heavily modded Lenco 75 with Alphason HR100S tonearm


----------



## upstateguy

bbophead said:


>


 


bbophead said:


>


 


soundfanz said:


>


 
  
*Pink vinyl, red vinyl, black vinyl, WOW !*


----------



## Skylab

VPI ScoutMaster / Benz Micro LP-Smr / Heart - Magazine picture disc


----------



## bbophead

Nice!
  
 What is it?


----------



## upstateguy

bbophead said:


> Nice!
> 
> What is it?


 
  
 It's a hat.


----------



## 13713

62ohm said:


> Get this one, mate. Beautiful table..
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow that is actually a cool table.


----------



## wellers73

Just upgraded to a Rega RP6:


----------



## bbophead

wellers73 said:


> Just upgraded to a Rega RP6:


 
 Excellent!  I LOVE my RP6.  What cartridge and phono stage?  (Oh, and I'm a Weller fan, too.)


----------



## wellers73

bbophead said:


> Excellent!  I LOVE my RP6.  What cartridge and phono stage?  (Oh, and I'm a Weller fan, too.)




Cartridge is a Rega Exact. I'm using the built in phono stage of my Rogue Sphinx integrated amp. It's a great phono stage, but I may upgrade down the road.


----------



## pkrdlr007

Just finished up this Pioneer Pl-115d mkii w/ AT-96E. This one I'm keeping for myself.


----------



## JazzVinyl

pkrdlr007 said:


> Just finished up this Pioneer Pl-115d mkii w/ AT-96E. This one I'm keeping for myself.




Looking Good!!


----------



## pkrdlr007

Thanks JV, Took a lot of TLC but has proven worth it.It sounds really good for its age of 35+ years.


----------



## Quinto




----------



## bbophead

Pretty picture!  I've tried to love Bruckner but with no success.


----------



## Quinto

bbophead said:


> Pretty picture!  I've tried to love Bruckner but with no success.


 
 It took me years to like some (especially 9th and 7th) ..the loooong lines bugged me for years lol


----------



## asilker

Technics and Audio Technica - ubiquitous


----------



## bbophead

Nice un-ubiquitous photo.


----------



## asilker

haha thanks! got a $2 fisheye clip for my phone photos, people on forums seem to enjoy the goofy perspective


----------



## EscritorJuan

This is my Technics SL-1200M3D turntable at the bottom, using the Ortofon Blue 2M cartridge playing an album while, directly above it, I have a prototype of the Lampizator DSD Komputer music server that I purchased from Lambizator's Lukasz Fikus at 
 AXPONA 2016 in Chicago.


----------



## Digital-Deviant

Just picked this Rega RP3 up, need to get a wall mount for it - for now it's back in the box


----------



## bbophead

Nice!
  
 Wall mounts have always been a part of my vinyl set up.


----------



## JazzVinyl

bbophead said:


> Nice!
> 
> Wall mounts have always been a part of my vinyl set up.




Excellent and that is one heck of a great LP you have queued up!!

Enjoy!


----------



## Eee Pee




----------



## Eee Pee

Dang dust action...


----------



## bbophead

Nice!
  
 I got dust, too.  (You mean, I gotta clean that thing?)


----------



## Eee Pee

They say the AT440 digs deep... It seems to find some hidden dust action down deep in them grooves, and grab it.
  
 Really though, I should just cover it up when I'm not using it. But, naaaaah!
  
 Edit: Fine I'll clean it off right now!


----------



## parbaked




----------



## bbophead

Looks like a Rega.
  
 300b power amp?  Are there tubes missing left and right?  Or, maybe those are bias meters?  Brand?
  
 MY kind of Coltrane.


----------



## soundfanz

My heavily modded Lenco 75. With Alphason HR100S tonearm and Garrott P87 MC cart.


----------



## bbophead

Beauty!


----------



## parbaked

bbophead said:


> Looks like a Rega.
> 
> 300b power amp?  Are there tubes missing left and right?  Or, maybe those are bias meters?  Brand?


 
 Rega P2 unmodified except for Mr. Lim's feet.
 Custom C3m driving 300B amp by Sean Casper in Wisconsin.
 Those are bias meters...


----------



## bbophead

Thanks for the info.
  
 I almost feel smart.  Almost.


----------



## oshipao

Edit: Wrong thread


----------



## Ross

AMG Viella with AMG Teatro cartridge.


----------



## bbophead

Beauty!
  
 AMG = Aww my god.


----------



## JazzVinyl




----------



## JazzVinyl




----------



## Quinto




----------



## bbophead

Quote:  Neat set ups!  Love the purple vinyl, too. 





jazzvinyl said:


>


----------



## bbophead

Quote:  Classy!  Heard the Prokofiev 1st vln cto "live" just a few weeks ago played by Regis Pasquier. 





quinto said:


>


----------



## FlacFan

jazzvinyl said:


>


 
 This looks like a Denon cartridge?


----------



## JazzVinyl

flacfan said:


> This looks like a Denon cartridge?




Yep, DL-110 on a Well Tempered Classic...


----------



## FlacFan

jazzvinyl said:


> Yep, DL-110 on a Well Tempered Classic...


 
 DL-110...get outta here...you gotta be kidding me. Mine is now 30 years old and still working - not getting much use though. Is Denon still making these?
  
 Though it's hard to see in those pictures but in post 4126 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/549616/post-a-photograph-of-your-turntable/4125#post_11819959) you can spot another DL-110....
  
 Cheers.


----------



## JazzVinyl

flacfan said:


> DL-110...get outta here...you gotta be kidding me. Mine is now 30 years old and still working - not getting much use though. Is Denon still making these?
> 
> Though it's hard to see in those pictures but in post 4126 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/549616/post-a-photograph-of-your-turntable/4125#post_11819959) you can spot another DL-110....
> 
> Cheers.




They are a classic!

DL-110 is still avail, but price went up from 159 to 299 overnight 

Amazon has some for 249





.


----------



## FlacFan

jazzvinyl said:


> They are a classic!
> 
> DL-110 is still avail, but price went up from 159 to 299 overnight
> 
> ...


 
 You are right. I just checked. What a surprise.
 This was not cheap way back then - but not that expensive or so I believe. 
  
 Maybe I was just crazy enough not to notice the price tag....
  




  
 Cheers.


----------



## Packgrog

Always look for 2juki on ebay for the best prices for Japanese cartridges. He(?)'s selling the DL-110 for $175 shipped right now. Damn good for that price.


----------



## Packgrog

Best shot that I have of my current setup. Sounds fantastic. The Audiomods Classic arm in particular is a big winner.
  
 Dialing in the speed can be a little tedious, though, as I have to take apart the power supply to do it, and fluctuations in A/C frequency can throw off the speed. This has led me to snap up another Technics, which I stumbled across for a steal. It's helped me verify the speed when using iPhone apps Turntabulator and RPM, but having to recheck the speed is very tedious.
  
 The TecnoDec is also VERY sensitive to the platform. Very small chances in platform setup can have noticeable impact on sound. Right now its on a Pangea RV400 with sand-filled poles, with a platform combo of four 25mm diameter extra-thick Herbie's grungebuster dots, 3/4" Baltic birch plank, three 1.5" thin grungebuster dots, another 3/4" birch plank, and five very small diameter extra-thick grungebusters under the motor. Wonderful sound when dialed in, but a bit more fiddly to set up than I feel it should be. The bearing and platter are REALLY tough to beat, though, and while the DC motor speed seems to change slightly between listening/recording sessions, it stays nicely stable during playback, with very little vibration noise, especially with the grungebuster dots.
  
 I'm trying to determine whether to stick with this and upgrade my arm to the regular micrometer version, or switch fully to the Technics and change the arm to the Technics micrometer version. I'm still trying to track down a loaner Technics Rega armboard to at least see how that deck sounds with the current arm. Anyone out there know anyone in the States with an armboard that I could borrow briefly for testing? It doesn't make sense for me to blow $75-$100 on something that I would have no intention of keeping.


----------



## bbophead

Seems like an awful lot of trouble to go to just to dial in the speed.
  
 Maybe this is too much money but it would make things a lot simpler and accurate.
  
 http://phoenix-engr.com/#!/page_products
  
  
 BTW, nice looking rig!


----------



## Packgrog

bbophead said:


> Seems like an awful lot of trouble to go to just to dial in the speed.
> 
> Maybe this is too much money but it would make things a lot simpler and accurate.
> 
> ...


 
  
 And that's exactly why I'm pondering switching back to a Technics. It's damned tedious.
  
 Also, Michell motors are DC, and thus are not compatible with the Phoenix Eagle or Falcon. Add to that the fact that the (really wonderful) platter is too close to the plinth to provide adequate clearance to use the sensor and magnet for the Phoenix Roadrunner, and I'm left using iPhone apps to check my speed, and the Technics to verify target speed, since RPM reports a higher than actual speed on my phone (could be an issue with the app and/or iOS 9.3 and/or just my particular iPhone 6s). Really cool app, though, which shows the speed fluctuation in a graph, and even the Technics shows a very very slight fluctuation at the highest sensitivity level/lowest sample size. Turntabulator provides a more correct measurement (33.34 on the Technics), but is much slower to update. Lots of hoops to jump through for setup. :/
  
 But still, I hesitate since the Michell platters and bearings are really tough to beat. Sound is glorious when dialed in, and I love the look of the thing. Very unusual design. Tough call.
  
 Good thing I never went for a suspended design. Talk about fiddly to set up. Yeesh.


----------



## bbophead

Gotcha.
  
 I spent too many years with an Oracle TT.  No more springs for me.


----------



## Packgrog

Damn, Oracles are pretty, though.


----------



## bbophead

You get over that.


----------



## Packgrog

bbophead said:


> You get over that.


 
  
 I have wondered why I don't see more of them in people's systems... Was it unreliable, or sound issues, or just finicky with setup as I've been experiencing with the Michell?


----------



## bbophead

Naw, it worked just fine.  But  getting the springs to talk to each other was a rather large PIA.  It became tiresome to me.  The older I get, the less dicking around is desired.  So, Rega.


----------



## Packgrog

Ah, yes. I started out with a Rega P2. Sounded great with a kludged mat. Went to a Technics after that for the sake of speed accuracy, discovered that the sound wasn't as good (later realizing that the stock arm, sorbothane domes, and not-so-rigid shelf setup were all likely problems), so sold that and got the TecnoDec. The TecnoDec has way better sound, a platter and bearing that likely rival the Groovetracer stuff without having to mod anything, and the ability to actually change the speed (Regas always run way fast). Now that I've spent all the time tuning the setup of the TecnoDec, I'm getting annoyed with the difficulty in getting reliable speed accuracy. Doh.
  
 That said, I believe you can actually use the Phoenix Engineering Falcon and Roadrunner with Regas, depending on what motor you have, so you could easily have flawless speed AND marvelous sound all at once. I'm kind of jealous.


----------



## bbophead

packgrog said:


> Ah, yes. I started out with a Rega P2. Sounded great with a kludged mat. Went to a Technics after that for the sake of speed accuracy, discovered that the sound wasn't as good (later realizing that the stock arm, sorbothane domes, and not-so-rigid shelf setup were all likely problems), so sold that and got the TecnoDec. The TecnoDec has way better sound, a platter and bearing that likely rival the Groovetracer stuff without having to mod anything, and the ability to actually change the speed (Regas always run way fast). Now that I've spent all the time tuning the setup of the TecnoDec, I'm getting annoyed with the difficulty in getting reliable speed accuracy. Doh.
> 
> That said, I believe you can actually use the Phoenix Engineering Falcon and Roadrunner with Regas, depending on what motor you have, so you could easily have flawless speed AND marvelous sound all at once. I'm kind of jealous.


 

 Yeah, popped for a Falcon recently.  Too underpowered (ran really hot) so exchanged it for an Eagle.  Works fine.  Maybe I'll get the tach next.


----------



## Packgrog

I know a couple of people running VPI decks with the Eagle/Roadrunner. Excellent power stability and reliable, essentially exact & stable speed, with the sound benefits of a belt drive. I'm jealous.  Just not in the cards for me.


----------



## penmarker

So is the Phoenix Engineering speedbox compatible with all/most AC motor turntables? I never knew such a thing exists. How does it work, does it get feedback from the motor or the electronics in the turntable?
  
 Asking because my turntable speed fluctuates. Its really old, and the electronics might have gone bad. The turntable is a Telefunken S500.


----------



## bbophead

Read up:  http://phoenix-engr.com/#!/page_products


----------



## penmarker

Well, it seems that turntables with internal power supplies are a no-go then


----------



## Redcarmoose

penmarker said:


> Well, it seems that turntables with internal power supplies are a no-go then




Typically we try to stay away from any complete generalization. There are very few complete generalizations in turntables.  That's the cool part.

I run my whole system off one like this, slightly smaller. $90.00


----------



## Packgrog

So, I did a thing last night...
  
  
  
 The results are pleasantly surprising. No electrical mods or improved bearing (yet), just the Audiomods Classic tonearm, Isonoe footers, Funk Firm Achromat (not yet bonded to platter), Origin Live armboard (which came with crap-tastic mounting hardware that I needed to replace with larger, sturdier parts from Lowe's) and a 2mm or so large washer as a spacer. The sound is more forward than with the TecnoDec, and there's less a sense of ease and air, but the tradeoff is that everything is tighter, punchier, and more certain (ie: the imaging with the TecnoDec could be a bit more vague in comparison). I think I may stick with this going forward. It's certainly not as pretty, but the thing just WORKS. Also, as a nice added bonus, the cumulative spacer height seems to be just about perfect for VTA with the Achromat. In the likely event that I send the arm in for the Technics-specific micrometer mod, I should have a bit more play to get perfect VTA, but this may well work perfectly fine for a while. Nice!
  
 And yes, the Michell clamp does seem to work well with this. Until I've finished any other mods that might require removing the platter, I'm extremely hesitant to bond the Achromat to the platter, so the clamp helps alleviate the slippage issue. I do use the felt washer, and I need to put a fair bit of pressure down to get it to stay (not much spindle left with the 5mm Achromat), but the results seem quite good.


----------



## Hawkertempest

My "Hot Rodded" Red Rega RP6. This Baby is now in a league of it's own, rock solid 33.3rpm, dead quiet noise floor but it hasn't lost that Rega rhythm. Thank you Gtoovetracer, Tangopinner, Michael Lim and Swagman Labs, you make some really cool gear.


----------



## bbophead

Man, you love your RP6 even more than I do. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I got the black because I was afraid I would get tired of the red.  Now I'm not so sure. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The 6 is a great table.  I added the Phoenix Eagle for correct speed, will probably add the Tach later.
  
 Congratulations!


----------



## floydfan33

Building a little vinyl rig for my daughter. Not its final resting spot.

Rega RP1 White Union Jack Base
Upgraded to Glass Platter,RB250 Arm W/Stanton 680 Mk2,RP3 Dust Cover playing to Kanto YU5s. Sounds way better than expected.



Edit: in its final spot now


----------



## bbophead

That is one sweet looking and sounding rig.  What a lucky daughter you have.


----------



## Arsis

floydfan33 said:


> Building a little vinyl rig for my daughter. Not its final resting spot.
> 
> Rega RP1 White Union Jack Base
> Upgraded to Glass Platter,RB250 Arm W/Stanton 680 Mk2,RP3 Dust Cover playing to Kanto YU5s. Sounds way better than expected.
> ...


Inspired by your picture I hooked up my turntable to my powered Mackies. Sounds fantastic! A true beer-budget audiophile rig. 
I'll post pictures soon.

Realistic LAB-2200 linear tracker
Audio Tecnica 311EP cartridge 
Cambridge Audio 540P phono pre
Little Dot I+ (headphone out to Mackies) 
Mackie HR824 Mk I


----------



## penmarker

Oooh, headphone out to powered speakers... Double amping couldn't be good for your equipment downstream. Active speakers are supposed to be connected to either a pre out or line level, the general consensus is the extra juice from headphone out isn't good.
 Maybe others could chime in.


----------



## floydfan33

penmarker said:


> Oooh, headphone out to powered speakers... Double amping couldn't be good for your equipment downstream. Active speakers are supposed to be connected to either a pre out or line level, the general consensus is the extra juice from headphone out isn't good.
> Maybe others could chime in.


 
 There is a Pyle PP999 Phono Pre behind the turntable : )
  
 edit.  Realized it was in reply to a different post


----------



## penmarker

floydfan33 said:


> There is a Pyle PP999 Phono Pre behind the turntable : )
> 
> edit.  Realized it was in reply to a different post


Oops sorry, gotta make it a habit to quote the post for a reply.
Anyway, cheers!


----------



## digitallc

New gear......


----------



## bbophead

I'll say!
  
 Congrats on the brand new Rega.  Love 'em.


----------



## bbophead

New on 2 LPs.


----------



## Packgrog

bbophead said:


> New on 2 LPs.


 
 Oof, beautiful setup. Pity I only like a couple of JMJ's earlier albums (Oxygene, Equinoxe, Oxygene 7-13).
  
 And here's hoping Groovetracer release their stand-along turntable soon. The shot on their news page from December is mouth-watering.


----------



## bbophead

"And here's hoping Groovetracer release their stand-along turntable soon. The shot on their news page from December is mouth-watering."
  
 Like.


----------



## soundfanz

My heavily modded Lenco with PTP plate and double platters. Arm is an Alphason HR100S


----------



## bbophead

It looks very special.  Congratulations!


----------



## Redcarmoose

bbophead said:


> New on 2 LPs.




I got back into him this year, hearing both Electronica 1-2. Funny too as I remember him from my teens I think? 

A great album to hear on vinyl I bet? I was able to hear the HD copy and regularly walk around with the MP3 in my portable. I like how he has used the platform to bring in many of the "heavies" and let them be as creative as well. I guess as far as sonic fireworks that album holds the trophy this year. Just a ton of stuff going on. It's actually an album that challenges like like DSOTM, in that you can use it to lay trouble on the character of equipment. Either the equipment can do the signal or at least try. Lol


----------



## bbophead

Yeah, an 80's vibe with the new stuff on top.  Fresh nostalgia.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   My first encounter was Rendez-Vous and his visit to Houston.  Crazy wild!
  
 I'm old school with sitting in a dark room and listening, perfect for one side at a time.


----------



## PATB

digitallc said:


> New gear......


 
  
 I was going to post a picture of my very first table (black rega P3 2016 with ortofon cartridge) and noticed someone already did it for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  It took me a while to get a table because I was worried about surface noise etc. being distracting with headphones (unfortunately, I have no room for speakers).  So far, I love the vinyl sound!  I wish head-fi would have a vinyl forum.


----------



## Packgrog

patb said:


> I wish head-fi would have a vinyl forum.


 
 Given the vinyl explosion of the past few years, and the advent of things like the VPI Nomad (now the even nicer VPI Player), it may be warranted.


----------



## digitallc

patb said:


> I was going to post a picture of my very first table (black rega P3 2016 with ortofon cartridge) and noticed someone already did it for me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Nice cartridge. I highly recommend the Groovetracer subplatter as your first mod, if you do start to go down that rabbit hole. Yes, it would be great to have a vinyl/analog forum here on Head-Fi.


----------



## PATB

digitallc said:


> Nice cartridge. I highly recommend the Groovetracer subplatter as your first mod, if you do start to go down that rabbit hole. Yes, it would be great to have a vinyl/analog forum here on Head-Fi.


 
  
 Thanks!  The GT reference sub platter is on my Xmas wish list. 
  
 Head-fi should really have a headphone and vinyl forum, especially now that Schiit supports vinyl/headphone listening with the Jot.  What about it @jude?


----------



## bbophead

You won't regret it.


----------



## digitallc

This evening's mod completed - Rega 2mm 3-point spacer. Yesterday's mod is visible - Michael Lim double pulley. It all sounds surprisingly good via headphones.


----------



## jude

patb said:


> ...Head-fi should really have a headphone and vinyl forum, especially now that Schiit supports vinyl/headphone listening with the Jot.  What about it @jude?


 
  
@PATB, I have a feeling we'll be seeing such a sub-forum here in the near future, yes.


----------



## penmarker

For me, I visit a different turntable forum for analog info and questions. Not sure about Head-Fi's policy with linking other forums in here so I won't link it. But its VinylEngine.
 Bonus marks for super friendly+welcoming community.


----------



## Redcarmoose

penmarker said:


> For me, I visit a different turntable forum for analog info and questions. Not sure about Head-Fi's policy with linking other forums in here so I won't link it. But its VinylEngine.
> Bonus marks for super friendly+welcoming community.





Links are always good here, even better when on-topic.


----------



## analogsurviver

Although from my country, it is the worst idea possible for a turntable :


----------



## Packgrog

Most. Pretentious. Video. Ever. 
  
 I wouldn't say "worst idea possible for a turntable", as eliminating the bearing contact eliminates a key source of noise. Getting something like this to work correctly would be extremely challenging and likely very expensive, however.


----------



## AK7579

Here is the link to the Kickstarter page https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable?ref=nav_search


----------



## analogsurviver

packgrog said:


> Most. Pretentious. Video. Ever.
> 
> I wouldn't say "worst idea possible for a turntable", as eliminating the bearing contact eliminates a key source of noise. Getting something like this to work correctly would be extremely challenging and likely very expensive, however.


 
 I agree it is the most pretentious video ever. I agree with the "  Levitating hipsters inbound. ﻿ " comment. 
  
 However, it IS true and it DOES work. HOW - it remains to be seen/heard. The working prototype premieres tomorrow at one of our two parallelely held audio shows :
  
 http://hifi-ljubljana.org/
  
 Most turntable manufacturers do not have enough of an idea what a turntable actually is - but the degree of unawareness what a quality turntable should be doing as displayed by these guys sets an all time record low level.  It is wrong on so many counts I do not know where to begin. Clearly, they have not listened to pros and cons of various turntable designs. Eliminating bearing noise, as fine and noble as it may seem to some, does not lead by itself to superior sound quality off real world vinyl record using mechanical way for pickup design - while ignoring each and every other measure necessary in order to get that superior sound quality.
  
 I will see if they will be open enough to allow for taking the wow & flutter and rumble measurements - two fundamental parameters for any turntable, sorely lacking from their specs published on kickstarter. Or, at least, allow for a demo playback of a known vinyl record.


----------



## Hijodelbrx

I'm gonna hold out for a free floating platter that plays records via a laser!


----------



## bbophead

You do that.
  
 I hope you're fairly young.


----------



## analogsurviver

hijodelbrx said:


> I'm gonna hold out for a free floating platter that plays records via a laser!


 
 That would be the only reasonable application for the magnet levitated/driven turntable. 
  
 However, laser has proven itself to be inferior to god ol* stylus - because it can not scan wavelengths required without laser wavelength becoming dangerous to people vision. The development of laser turntable has begun by conventional phono cartridge manufacturer ADC ( which bankrupted as a result ... ), carried on by ADC being bailed out by a Bank ( which also went belly up as a result...) , somewhere in time it was being called Finial ( that did sell a handful of - extremely expensive -  machines ) - which brings us to the present day owner/producer of laser turntables, ELP of Japan. All the advantages of mechanical contact free reproduction pale in direct comparison with a conventional turntable roughly the cost of an ELP machine ( low 5 digit / high 4 digit in $ ). Couple that to the necessity to clean ( preferably ultrasonic, at least vacuum ) each side prior to each play ( light beam reads any debris/fluff as signal, can not sweep small amounts of debris as conventional stylus can without objectionable artefacts ... ) - you get the picture ...
  
 Were it pure cost issues with laser turntable, that would have been long ago made non-issue; there are many conventional turntables exceeding the price of even the costliest ELP. I would , given the money, be put up with the annoyance of having to clean each side of the record prior to each play; but not with the lacklustre sound.
  
 And, of course, I am interested in retaining my vision as long as possible.


----------



## spookygonk

packgrog said:


> Most. Pretentious. Video. Ever.


 
 He's not even sitting in the sweet spot!


----------



## Happytalk

The record looks a little warped


----------



## franzdom

Reunited with my turntable and vinyl after 27 years. 
 It's just a Beogram 5000 but it's pretty cool. Sounds sweet too!
  
 Records are a lot more fun to hold!


----------



## penmarker

B&O made great turntables and they're beautiful too like Braun products back in the days. Too bad the they run on proprietary components and if the cart/stylus sold out then you can't do much.


----------



## bbophead

I HEAR you!


----------



## bbophead

penmarker said:


> B&O made great turntables and they're beautiful too like Braun products back in the days. Too bad the they run on proprietary components and if the cart/stylus sold out then you can't do much.


 

 I think Soundsmith has replacement cartridges/stylii.  No worries.


----------



## franzdom

I bought a Soundsmith, it's working really well!


----------



## penmarker

Ah ok! I have to admit I'm not familiar with B&O and their replacement parts.


----------



## franzdom

The turntable is decidedly mid-fi but it was pretty nice in 1984 when I bought it.


----------



## bbophead

franzdom said:


> The turntable is decidedly mid-fi but it was pretty nice in 1984 when I bought it.


 

 All is cool.
  
 This is also mid-fi but, you know what?  I still love it.


----------



## Krutsch

bbophead said:


> All is cool.
> 
> This is also mid-fi but, you know what?  I still love it.


 
  
 An RP-6 + Ortofon 2M Black is mid-fi?


----------



## mulveling

Shamefully bad-quality cellphone pics. But of really, *really* great quality analog. Absolutely in bliss with this analog rig. Recently acquired a new Koetsu Coralstone, as my Onyx Platinum is off to Japan for a full rebuild. Both cartridges are money well spent. Perfect synergy on this rig. Stands are not high-end (I'll spend lots of money on some stupid stuff, but not on a stand), but have been filled with lots of lead shot, and I added a simple maple platform (handmade by a local friend) -- this does the trick towards sufficient vibration control; the 50 lbs turntable does the rest. I play *loud* on some very big Tannoy Canterbury speakers, so if there was a problem with vibration control I'd know it. Silver cabling; I do think it made a difference.


----------



## bbophead

krutsch said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > All is cool.
> ...


 

 Some of us Rega owners have an inferiority complex.


----------



## Packgrog

mulveling said:


> Shamefully bad-quality cellphone pics. But of really, *really* great quality analog. Absolutely in bliss with this analog rig. Recently acquired a new Koetsu Coralstone, as my Onyx Platinum is off to Japan for a full rebuild. Both cartridges are money well spent. Perfect synergy on this rig. Stands are not high-end (I'll spend lots of money on some stupid stuff, but not on a stand), but have been filled with lots of lead shot, and I added a simple maple platform (handmade by a local friend) -- this does the trick towards sufficient vibration control; the 50 lbs turntable does the rest. I play *loud* on some very big Tannoy Canterbury speakers, so if there was a problem with vibration control I'd know it. Silver cabling; I do think it made a difference.


 
  
 Holy Christ! Gorgeous and kind of insane! No nice!


----------



## PATB

Wow!  I haven't been listening to headphones in a month since acquiring my Rega P3 and Epos K1 bookshelfs.  Definitely low-fi compared to what you guys have, but I love my vinyl rig! 
  
 Now, what do you guys do with warped records?  I only have two, but is kind of irritating to see (did not notice them until past the return period 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) and one is an AP 45 RPM Art Blakey (moanin).  No audio problems I can hear though; just looks irritating.


----------



## mulveling

patb said:


> Wow!  I haven't been listening to headphones in a month since acquiring my Rega P3 and Epos K1 bookshelfs.  Definitely low-fi compared to what you guys have, but I love my vinyl rig!
> 
> Now, what do you guys do with warped records?  I only have two, but is kind of irritating to see (did not notice them until past the return period
> 
> ...


 
 I currently use a ring clamp plus center weight on my Clearaudio (total of over 5 lbs of clamping), but the ring's usage is annoying enough that some people never use theirs; I do it by habit, but you must be _*very*_ careful not to drop it over your table or clip the cartridge or bump the tonearm -- and also take care not to queue the stylus onto the ring lip!!
  
 I previously ran a SOTA Star III, originally designed with a vacuum hold-down, but the old silicon lip didn't hold a vacuum anymore so I disabled it. The SOTA's platter didn't allow for a metal ring clamp, so I played my records unflattened for quite a while, and it did just fine (yes, even with my Koetsu). I really like the idea of a vacuum hold-down when it's working, but the old SOTA tables had silicon platter lips that lost their ability to seal over time.
  
 Honestly I _haven't_ to date found it to be a _huge_ difference. Though it's nice to flatten out minor warps, I'm able to play the vast majority of records just fine without a ring clamp. Unflattened warps would be a bigger issue if your phono stage doesn't have adequate subsonic filtering (scary to see how much displacement that can generate on your woofers) -- very bad for your woofers if they exceed max excursion, and needlessly drains power from your amps. But then, I noticed that some records will still flap your woofers even with full clamping (that's why you really want a subsonic filter). And a severely warped record would ideally be something your return/toss anyways. I suppose a cartridge with very marginal tracking would also benefit from full clamping -- but again, why would you run a cartridge like that? 
  
 I might do a night of comparison ring-clamped vs. not to see if I can discern a sonic preference one way or another -- but it's difficult to do a fair assessment here because the 3lbs weight of the ring affects the Clearaudio's magnetic suspension, which necessitates a change in the VTA.


----------



## PATB

I am thinking of a ring clamp, but they cost more than my Rega P3!  And the Rega motor may not be able to handle the extra weight.  For now, I am just going to be more diligent with inspecting records, so I can return them if I have to.


----------



## bbophead

patb said:


> I am thinking of a ring clamp, but they cost more than my Rega P3!  And the Rega motor may not be able to handle the extra weight.  For now, I am just going to be more diligent with inspecting records, so I can return them if I have to.


 

 You've got the right idea!


----------



## penmarker

bbophead said:


> You've got the right idea!


 
 You mentioned about subsonic filtering, I do notice my woofers move a lot just how you and a lot of others described.
  
 Do you have that filter? How much improvement did you notice?


----------



## bbophead

penmarker said:


> bbophead said:
> 
> 
> > You've got the right idea!
> ...


 

 I'm not the one who mentioned woofer movement.  However, I think it can be a problem.  I don't happen to have it.  It could be that there is feedback from the bass speakers to the turntable.  All turntables have rumble which can do the same thing.  Some phono stages have a rumble filter built in, it rolls off the bass frequencies and lessens the problem.  Some stages have a switchable rumble filter and you can use it or not, depending on need.


----------



## mulveling

penmarker said:


> You mentioned about subsonic filtering, I do notice my woofers move a lot just how you and a lot of others described.
> 
> Do you have that filter? How much improvement did you notice?


 
 It varies by phono stage and it's definitely something that not often specified (even for stages that have filtering), but it would be much more useful information than the usual "RIAA within +/- 0.5 dB" stat lines. I use a Rogue Ares, and because this was a concern of mine, I remember having a call with Mark O'Brien (about the time of its initial release 2010) where he said something along the lines of (paraphrasing here) "yes, it has a subsonic filter, and I don't get why some makers don't use one". I didn't ask for or get any specific numbers on its rolloff slope, though.
  
 I still do see some woofer pumping with my current setup, especially on certain albums (yes even with the ring clamp) and the volume turned up high -- but rarely is it severe enough to cause concern. This is something where a little goes a long way -- you want some subsonic filtering to reduce the woofer pumping, but too much and you'll certainly start affecting the audible band in less desirable ways (as with anti-skate -- you want a little, but definitely not too much). Ideally a phono stage would provide adjustable filtering. For a fixed setting, I think the Ares strikes a decent balance, which is to have some moderate filtering. I've had phono stages over the years where the woofer pumping/flapping was certainly more noticeable -- Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 and original Hagerman Trumpet come to mind, though they were still very nice stages overall (just be quite careful not to play too loud on the "bad" records).
  
 A quick lol at me: I've bought the Rogue Ares THREE times, but this time it's sticking around -- changing speakers 4 years ago made it _*hard*_ to settle things down again, for a while. That alone should stave off speaker upgraditis for a good long time.


----------



## analogsurviver

mulveling said:


> It varies by phono stage and it's definitely something that not often specified (even for stages that have filtering), but it would be much more useful information than the usual "RIAA within +/- 0.5 dB" stat lines. I use a Rogue Ares, and because this was a concern of mine, I remember having a call with Mark O'Brien (about the time of its initial release 2010) where he said something along the lines of (paraphrasing here) "yes, it has a subsonic filter, and I don't get why some makers don't use one". I didn't ask for or get any specific numbers on its rolloff slope, though.
> 
> I still do see some woofer pumping with my current setup, especially on certain albums (yes even with the ring clamp) and the volume turned up high -- but rarely is it severe enough to cause concern. This is something where a little goes a long way -- you want some subsonic filtering to reduce the woofer pumping, but too much and you'll certainly start affecting the audible band in less desirable ways (as with anti-skate -- you want a little, but definitely not too much). Ideally a phono stage would provide adjustable filtering. For a fixed setting, I think the Ares strikes a decent balance, which is to have some moderate filtering. I've had phono stages over the years where the woofer pumping/flapping was certainly more noticeable -- Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 and original Hagerman Trumpet come to mind, though they were still very nice stages overall (just be quite careful not to play too loud on the "bad" records).
> 
> A quick lol at me: I've bought the Rogue Ares THREE times, but this time it's sticking around -- changing speakers 4 years ago made it _*hard*_ to settle things down again, for a while. That alone should stave off speaker upgraditis for a good long time.


 
 Subsonic filtering is the last resort and definitely an after the fact cure, not prevention of the problem. Although good and beneficial if there are no other means to combat the problem available, it is still a band aid - at best.
  
 Every phono cartridge/tonearm has a fundamental system resonance, governed by the compliance pf the stylus suspension and combined effective mass. It should, ideally, be in the 8 to 12 Hz range, with 10 Hz being an ideal value. 
  
 What is NOT specified as "ideal" is the magnitude to which this resonance amplifies the output relative to the level in the upper bass/midrange and its sharpness or Q - the quality of resonance. Also, the sheer excessive excursion is inversely SQUARE proportional to this resonance frequency; meaning the excursion of your woofer gets severely more pronounced if the resonance of your cartridge/tonearm is say 8 Hz ( or lower...) than say 12 Hz. 
  
 To combat this undesired effect, there are several options available prior to going to the last resort - the subsonic filtering, which is nothing else than sweeping the dirt under the carpet.
  
 1.) Silycone Oil damping ( a la SME, in recent(ish) times KAB for Technics SL-1200 , Mission 774, Moerch, etc, etc ). Better something than nothing. It can impair a VERY bad influence on sound overall by making it "dead" . It proved that excessive VERTICAL damping is to be blamed for this - and more refined versions use no or use adjustable vertical damping in order to bring the best results using this method ( Audio Technica, Moerch ). I remember measuring Moerch DP6 with a few cartridges - adjusting the vertical damping from zero to maximum had an effect of reducing the resonant peak by the "whole" of approx 1-2 dB ( almost negligible at peaks being usually + 10 to + 14 dB relative to midband or should be 0 dB value ), whereas the subjective effect was HUGE. From overzealously open to decidedly dead. An extreme case of silycone damping is Townsend - with a trough in front of the cartridge and plunger attached to the headshell. No direct experience with this one.
  
 2.) "Something" attached in the vicinity of stylus - from the simple "brush" arrangement of Stanton/Pickering trough more sophisticated Shure version called Dynamic Stabilizer ( which is a carbon fibre brush vertically damped with sylicone ), trough universally applicable Discwasher Disktracker ( here used WITH Stanton Brush !!! .... ) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLy48M2wkFQ
 and variation on the theme by Zerostat http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4211422.html - to the top of the hill air damped Stax CS-1 ( version specifcally for Stax CP-Y/CP-X II cartridge ) or universally applicable CS-2.
  
 This method is more successful in reducing the amplitude of the unwanted cartridge/tonearm fundamental resonance than the sylicone damping. It has the unfortunate side effect of MANY ( Shure claims IIRC 10.000 bristles in its carbon fibre brush ) "styluses" tracking the grooves roughly 3-4 mm before the stylus proper can reach the groove - inevitably transmitting vibration to the cartridge body, thus picking, albeit at low level, an "average" what is going in the grooves tracked by the "brush". It IS audible, on music most noticeable when the stylus proper is still tracking a very quiet portion of some classical music and "brush" tracking say a loud finale - you WILL hear it. It is noticeable with less difference in level between the stylus and "brush" portions of the groove, too - but to a lesser degree and to a more attentive listener.   I do have Disctracker (still NOS virgo intacta ) and therefore have no idea how loud its "brush talk" is; Shure*s is bad enough in V15IV ( where it was first introduced ) and V15V ( and lower models intoduced at the launch of these two V15s ), only to be made worse still with the last true generation of quality Shure cartridges - ML120He, ML140He, Ultra 200 and Ultra 400 ( they differ in stylus and cosmetics/lettering ) - where this "brush talk" is excessive. There is a reason Stax CS-2 commands such astronomic price http://www.ebay.com/itm/STAX-CS-2-Air-Damped-Cartridge-Stabilizer-/261934403157  ; it was the rarest of them all, the most expensive at the time of introduction, I have heard rumors that German distributor sold an entire quantity of 6 ( in a word : six ! ) samples throughout the history - but it works and has the lowest "brush talk"  of any of the devices mentioned.
  
 3.) Dynamic Damping/antiresonator approach. This involves (usually tunable ) arrangement spring/damping controlled resonance of the counterweight of the tonearm. It was a feature of a very few TOTL tonearms ( Technics EPA 100, EPA 100 MK2, EPA 250, Pioneer ???, Denon ???, EPA 500 series, few Dual top/upper models with Q suffix  ) which feature this damping in both horizontal and vertical direction. It works by adjusting the resonance of the counterweight EXACTLY at the resonant frequency of the cartridge/tonearm - both in frequency and quality - in theory, both would cancel each other EXACTLY out, yielding a totally flat response (and an absolute minimum of woofer flapping ). In practice, I achieved results of peak at resonance being approx +3 to +4 dB - which is a HUGE reduction of amplitude of the resonance compared to the usual +10 to m+14 dB; if you recalculate these dBs into percentage, +4dB is approx 20 % error from should be value and + 10 to 14 dB is, roughly, 400 % (!!!) error !!! This is the best resonance control option ever made available in a commercially available product.  A bit less sophisticated ( only the vertical dynamic damping - which is the most effective/beneficial ) was available in the only relatively inexpensive turntable - the Tesla NC-470/NAD 5120/Lenco L-802 . This damping can be adjusted with the extreme of precision - yielding, for all practical purposes, almost totally flat response in the vertical mode - no resonance measurable, with any cartridge. 
  
 The drawback is that this adjustment absolutely has to be made with utmost precision - or you can end with TWO instead of one resonance, making things far worse than with a tonearm with "stupid fixed counterweight". A test record is mandatory - and, even if you are experienced, it means trial and error of adjustments, until you grasp how adjusting the resonant frequency AND Q interplay/effect the total response. A NAD 5120 adjustment ( after geometry, VTF, antiskate, etc has already been dealt with ) of cartridge/tonearm resonance - or better said its cancellation - can take up to 4 hours ( ! ) - but, make no mistake, records will then sound quieter as far rumble and woofer flapping is concerned than on say 100.000$ ( or more...) turntable fitted with a tonearm that takes no measure to combat cartridge/tonearm resonance. A properly adjusted NAD-5120 ( the name under which the original Tesla NC-470 is generally known in the West ) is among the best turntables available - despite its rather chintzy build. 
  
 4.) Electronic compensation for the cartridge/tonearm resonance. Sony Biotracer, Denon, JVC. It works similarly as above, much easier to adjust, but has the tendency having  not enough "brain" to discern which vibration it SHOULD suppress and which it should let them be. It can manifest itself in reduced perceived dynamic range.
 No direct experience with these systems - only the comments I could find online.
  
 5.) Eddy Current Damping. The sole commercially available product is the Dynavector family of tonearms - starting with the original DV-505. These arms use eddy current damping in horizontal direction - and are perhaps the only commercially available option to play back the most demanding record of them all - https://www.discogs.com/Lloyd-Holzgraf-The-Power-And-The-Glory-Volume-1/release/4537692
 It has recorded bass down to ( forgot the exact Hz - but BELOW 10 Hz ) and will unsettle anything else - short of possible something with electronic compensation as described under 4.)
  
 Remember, in order to fully understand and appreciate what was written above, one must absolutely understand 
 http://www.theanalogdept.com/images/spp6_pics/TT_Design/MechanicalResonances.pdf
 It IS technical, it IS NOT an easy read - but it is the Holy Grail of analogue disc playback. Do yourself a favour and "digest" it - it can provide answers to your concerns and can save you very costly mistakes.
  
 It is not a great feeling when your 100.000+$ TT gets clobbered in a direct shoot-out by a ( PROPERLY adjusted ) "little humble" NAD-5120 ...


----------



## penmarker

bbophead said:


> *I'm not the one who mentioned woofer movement. * However, I think it can be a problem.  I don't happen to have it.  It could be that there is feedback from the bass speakers to the turntable.  All turntables have rumble which can do the same thing.  Some phono stages have a rumble filter built in, it rolls off the bass frequencies and lessens the problem.  Some stages have a switchable rumble filter and you can use it or not, depending on need.


 
 Oh! Sorry about that. I had a mixup.
  


mulveling said:


> It varies by phono stage and it's definitely something that not often specified (even for stages that have filtering), but it would be much more useful information than the usual "RIAA within +/- 0.5 dB" stat lines.
> 
> ***snip


 
  


analogsurviver said:


> Subsonic filtering is the last resort and definitely an after the fact cure, not prevention of the problem. Although good and beneficial if there are no other means to combat the problem available, it is still a band aid - at best.
> 
> ***snip


 
  
  
 Thank you both for the lengthy explanations. I'll do some more homework on it.
  
 Overall, I'm not entirely too concerned about the woofer excursion, but the rumble effect can be heard from my headphones since they have a wider frequency range. It IS noticeable, but not up to the point that it distracts my listening. Unless I turn up the volume very high, it is only barely audible.
  
 I've also noticed the woofer excursion differs between records; lowest being Gregory Porter - Liquid Spirit, and highest being my thrift store records. 
  
 Tonearm resonance could be a minor issue for me as I noticed there was some resonant-like distortion on my 45 RPM Damien Rice - My Favourite Faded Fantasy, his singing and accompaniment always contain sustained notes and they sort of 'echo' as if I have two sets of speakers playing at just a few miliseconds offset of each other. Only can be noticed if I listen carefully.


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> 2.) "Something" attached in the vicinity of stylus - from the simple "brush" arrangement of Stanton/Pickering trough more sophisticated Shure version called Dynamic Stabilizer ( which is a carbon fibre brush vertically damped with sylicone ), trough universally applicable Discwasher Disktracker ( here used WITH Stanton Brush !!! .... ) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLy48M2wkFQ
> and variation on the theme by Zerostat http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4211422.html - to the top of the hill air damped Stax CS-1 ( version specifcally for Stax CP-Y/CP-X II cartridge ) or universally applicable CS-2.
> 
> This method is more successful in reducing the amplitude of the unwanted cartridge/tonearm fundamental resonance than the sylicone damping. It has the unfortunate side effect of MANY ( Shure claims IIRC 10.000 bristles in its carbon fibre brush ) "styluses" tracking the grooves roughly 3-4 mm before the stylus proper can reach the groove - inevitably transmitting vibration to the cartridge body, thus picking, albeit at low level, an "average" what is going in the grooves tracked by the "brush". It IS audible, on music most noticeable when the stylus proper is still tracking a very quiet portion of some classical music and "brush" tracking say a loud finale - you WILL hear it. It is noticeable with less difference in level between the stylus and "brush" portions of the groove, too - but to a lesser degree and to a more attentive listener.


 
 I learned to hate the dynamic stabilizer on my Type V.  I could hear it through the speakers AND physically while looking down at the cartridge while it tracked.  I always flipped it up and probably should have removed it altogether.  That was on an AR ES-1 with a Sumiko arm.  I didn't get bass feedback on that system either.
  
 I'm lucky as I seem to have no problem with the 2M Black and RB-303 and I have four 7" subs with four passive 7" drivers distributed around the room.  The Rega is on a vintage Target shelf bolted to the studs.  Perhaps if I played a record with below 20hz information, I would have a problem.  I don't go looking for trouble. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 The shelf.


----------



## Packgrog

I still have an Apollo WT2SE double wall shelf (black, wood veneered shelves) that I'm no longer using. Worked GREAT in my apartment when mounted directly to a 2'x2' Home Depot birch plywood plank, which in turn was mounted to the wall studs. The cross beams were filled with sand, which did help as well, and I replaced the top shelf with a double stack of finer 3/4" baltic birch ply and Herbie's grungebuster dots (which I still use as my turntable platform on the top shelf of my Pangea audio rack). A really nice piece of hardware if you have solid walls and noisy floors. If anyone is interested, particularly in the Philly area, drop me a PM, otherwise I'll post it in a for sale forum eventually.


----------



## bbophead

Nice looking and effective!


----------



## mulveling

Well that's definitely a wealth of knowledge posted by *analogsurviver**.*
  
 The Koetsu/Graham combination I run doesn't have any resonance issues -- it's a superb pairing. But as I listen, I'm staring down the throats of gigantic 15-inch 96dB/Watt woofers that cover everything below 1.1kHz, and I listen loud, so any small subsonic energy that gets through (including stuff on the record itself) is going to be visible. On most records, the woofers stay quite "still".
  

  
 I did get to try the Technics EPA 500 (dynamic damping like the EPA 100) on my old SOTA several years back. No, I didn't do the extreme setup, and the arm wand it had was a very marginal match for my Ortofon Kontrapunkt c at the time, but it still sounded extremely nice -- at least on par with the Fidelity Research FR64fx I was using. I should've bought the damn thing just to have it.


----------



## bbophead

Yeah, I'll bet that system can go places!


----------



## Quinto

mulveling said:


> Well that's definitely a wealth of knowledge posted by *analogsurviver**.*
> 
> The Koetsu/Graham combination I run doesn't have any resonance issues -- it's a superb pairing. But as I listen, I'm staring down the throats of gigantic 15-inch 96dB/Watt woofers that cover everything below 1.1kHz, and I listen loud, so any small subsonic energy that gets through (including stuff on the record itself) is going to be visible. On most records, the woofers stay quite "still".
> 
> ...


 





 C O O L


----------



## Funambulistic

mulveling said:


> Well that's definitely a wealth of knowledge posted by *analogsurviver**.*
> 
> The Koetsu/Graham combination I run doesn't have any resonance issues -- it's a superb pairing. But as I listen, I'm staring down the throats of gigantic 15-inch 96dB/Watt woofers that cover everything below 1.1kHz, and I listen loud, so any small subsonic energy that gets through (including stuff on the record itself) is going to be visible. On most records, the woofers stay quite "still".
> 
> ...


 
 That is an AWESOME setup! Congrats and good listening!


----------



## analogsurviver

mulveling said:


> Well that's definitely a wealth of knowledge posted by *analogsurviver**.*
> 
> The Koetsu/Graham combination I run doesn't have any resonance issues -- it's a superb pairing. But as I listen, I'm staring down the throats of gigantic 15-inch 96dB/Watt woofers that cover everything below 1.1kHz, and I listen loud, so any small subsonic energy that gets through (including stuff on the record itself) is going to be visible. On most records, the woofers stay quite "still".
> 
> ...


 
 I should have written the exact description of the Technics B500 base, EPA-501H, EPA-501G, EPA-501M, EPA-501E, EPA-501P, ...
 http://www.vinylengine.com/library/technics/epa-500.shtml
 there are six wands in the series, 5 for normal 1/2" mount, one for T4P P-Mount cartridges. For various cartridge mass/compliance combinations - BUT ALL WITH FIXED ANTIRESONATOR FREQUENCIES AND Qs . It is not perfectly adjustable as with EPA-100 , EPA 100MK2 ( by far the best of the bunch - about triple the price of its siblings ) or EPA-250 
 http://www.vinylengine.com/library/technics/epa-250.shtml
  ( which is also part of the EPA-500 system, fitting the B-500 base and sporting S- arm tube, removable IEC headshell and adjustable frequency ( and Q ? ) of the antiresonator ). The most common EPA 500 wand is EPA-501H ( which I own ) - which was a perfect match for the Benz MC Reference some 15 years ago ( pre - Lukaschek times, when the compliance was higher ) - but it usually pairs well with a cart of lower mass and higher compliance. All 500 antiresonators are set to the frequency approx 10 Hz ( except E, which is for highest compliance carts, which require for resonant frequency of 10 Hz zero - or even negative - tonarm effective mass, therefore antiresonator is set to a frequency that is practical in such cases - around 7 Hz ). EPA-501H was the want supplied by default as the "EPA-500" tonearm - and other, much rarer wands may in today*s market burn a larger hole in your pocket than ( B500+EPA501H = EPA 500 ) would.
  
 EPA 500 series is the worst sounding of all EPAs with antiresonator - due to structural resonances within the audio band. But it is possible to DIY them out, bringing the arm(s) to an entirely different level.
  
 Koetsu/Graham is no different in fundamental cartridge suspension compliance/tonearm + cartridge effective mass resonance ( ideally at 10 Hz ) than any of the normal arms - it is no match for the properly adjusted/matched EPAs. Once heard the effect of amelioration - or, in really good cases, complete elimination  of  - that fundamental "10 Hz resonance", it is difficult to go back to anything that does not allow for its suppression - regardless how good it might be otherwise. 
  
 With any of the methods that bring the fundamental resonance close to zero, the woofers will stand "still" ; however, the lower the frequency of this (even compensated for ) resonance, the higher will be the effects of the warps. The only system known to me that does succeed in overcoming this almost-taken-for-granted weakness of the vinyl playback is Transcriptors Vestigal arm ( as the first that did it ) - or, as I have put it upon first seeing/working with it "finally a well executed Vestigal " - the Versa Dynamics TURNTABLE SYSTEM. Both of these arms employ extremely low effective length in vertical sense ( I doubt you can mount the Koetsu on Versa - not enough room for connectors due to long(ish) cartridge body ) - but only if and when used with very low mass cartridges with high compliance.  The reason is the little known and even less understood term of SEESAW FREQUENCY - which is the frequency at which the tonearm fitted with cartridge set to track at zero tracking force oscillates if excited from the resting position. With any normal length arm ( approx 8 inches or more ) , the seesaw frequency will be around 1-2 Hz - which is WAY below the fundamental system resonance of around 10 Hz. That means any record warps  below 10 Hz must be dealt with exclusively by the stylus suspension - as the cart/arm can no longer follow these. Vestigal or Versa - with a LIGHT cartridge (say up to 3 g, plastic hardware used to screw the thing together ) with enough compliance to allow for fundamental 10Hz (or lower ) resonance will be completely devoid of "woofer dance" ; when I first measured Versa + Ortofon OM Super ( any decent stylus from the series will do, I used OM20), I could not believe my eyes - for the first time, the output of the turntable looked like the output from the signal generator. No aberrations typical for conventional cart/tonearm combos - whatsoever. Substituting Ortofon OM20 (almost bottom of the line, extremely light high compliance cart ) for MC-7500 (then top of the line, but heavy and low compliance cart ) had so devastatingly negative results I really felt sorry for the friend - it would put me, as it did him, on the brink of open crying.
  
 For those not familiar with either Vestigal or Versa - both would only work properly with a totally flat record. That*s WHY I called the Versa "finally well made Vestigal" - as Versa is a TURNTABLE SYSTEM ( TT + arm), neither of which is (or should be/have been ) available separately. The key element and fundamental condition that has to be met is record flatness - as low effective lengths like these two ( LESS than a typical IEC/SME headshell ) create far too high error in VTA over warps of normal records. It can also be heard as "wow" - dullness as the cart/arm is lifted from "flat" to "peak", then sharpness when it descends from the "peak" back down to flat.  Versa incorporates vacuum record suction system - and logic built into the electronics of the turntable prevents rotation of the turntable itself unless the satisfactory vacuum seal has been achieved in the first place. All that remains of the vertical motion of the stylus/cartridge/arm (besides modulation of the grove, of course ) is the discrepancy of the thickness of the vinyl record(s) itself - but that is inherent flaw of any real pressed vinyl record copy.
  
 I can not afford the Versa - but have been able to reproduce almost the same result using (heavily modified) Vestigal/low mass high compliance cart with vacuum suction systems on various turntables.


----------



## snapontom

Well, bebophead some of my best purchases did not include an exterior ring, though I thought about it long and hard.  I, I want to make a record change FaST!!!!!  I never return albums my shaved Shibata stylus tracks lower than almost all scratches, excepting my Rolling Stones AFTERMATH London album scratched to bloody hell. The track Paint It Black has never sounded so scratched and spit upon.  My copy is a true classic, played often in its day by everyone.


----------



## shaizada




----------



## bbophead

snapontom said:


> Well, bebophead some of my best purchases did not include an exterior ring, though I thought about it long and hard.  I, I want to make a record change FaST!!!!!  I never return albums my shaved Shibata stylus tracks lower than almost all scratches, excepting my Rolling Stones AFTERMATH London album scratched to bloody hell. The track Paint It Black has never sounded so scratched and spit upon.  My copy is a true classic, played often in its day by everyone.


 

 Don't know nothin' 'bout no exterior ring. 
  
 I have a Shibata as well, 2M Black, and, mostly, things are quiet, except for the noisy ones.


----------



## Krutsch

shaizada said:


>


 
  
 Wow! An amazing collection.
  
 I need a new turntable ... one that looks like it does dual duty as a time machine


----------



## spookygonk

^^^ Jesus, that's horrible, something you'd expect Prince to own (though I doubt he would have gone for something that gaudy).
  
 (also RIP Prince)


----------



## shaizada

LOL! Doubt is a disease...it infects the mind.


----------



## mulveling

I rather like the purple. Very bold; a conversation starter for sure -- you get a nice lady in your place and you're gonna have something to talk about! The arm situation looks a bit crazy though. As with human beings, 2 arms is good...3 is cause for concern.


----------



## shaizada

mulveling said:


> I rather like the purple. Very bold; a conversation starter for sure -- you get a nice lady in your place and you're gonna have something to talk about! The arm situation looks a bit crazy though. As with human beings, 2 arms is good...3 is cause for concern.


 
 The table actually is setup for 2 arms with 2 matching purple pods.  I have a Schroder Reference arm in a separate arm pod that I might use as a third arm.  It all balances visually as 4 pods around the turntable.  The DC motor can also be thought of as a pod in a way.


----------



## PATB

Here's an iPhone pic of my Ace Spacedeck


----------



## Packgrog

My new addition, more forum-appropriate than most:


----------



## floydfan33

Rega RP3 White with Pure Fidelity RP6 Delrin Black Platter and Pure Fidelity RP6 Subplatter. Just the Elys II for now but looking at upgrading soon.


----------



## bbophead

Aww, NICE!
  
 I'm such a Rega FanMan.
  
 I didn't know Groovetracer had a competitor in Pure Fidelity.  I'll have to check them out.
  
 I enjoy the 2M Black with my RP6.
  
 Congrats!
  
 Is there a Pure Fidelity website?


----------



## floydfan33

bbophead said:


> Aww, NICE!
> 
> I'm such a Rega FanMan.
> 
> ...


 
 I purchased through Canuck Audio Mart. They are based in Vancouver, BC and great to deal with. Link to their page there:
  
 http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/userprofile.php?user_id=100917
  
 Really well priced. I actually purchased the platter, subplatter, insert, ruby bearing and belts. Very quiet and they look great.


----------



## Krutsch

Replaced a 32 year-old Thorens TD166-Mk II with a Rega RP3 + Elys 2 cart. Killer deal on NOS model from my dealer, so I couldn't resist.
  
 I think just about everything (expensive) I have came that way - dealer shedding old stock when new models come out.


----------



## Happytalk

Nice. How is the difference in sound? Much better? Different?


----------



## bbophead

Pretty!  I'll bet it's a lot quieter.


----------



## Happytalk

bbophead said:


> Pretty!  I'll bet it's a lot quieter.



Right. I wonder if the thorens is stock, or modded. I am considering fixing up mine and installing an sme 3009 tone arm, but these regas are tempting.


----------



## Krutsch

happytalk said:


> Nice. How is the difference in sound? Much better? Different?


 
  
  


bbophead said:


> Pretty!  I'll bet it's a lot quieter.


 

 Yeah, thanks! I love the look and it's really, really quiet on playback. That part I noticed, right away.
  
 Also, setting up the cart was super easy with the 3-point mount that is unique to Rega.
  
 However... I am still waiting on the sound before passing judgement. The Elys 2 cart has an elliptical stylus and my Thorens is sporting a micro-line stylus on an Audio-Technica AT440MLa, which has been a magic pairing with the Thorens.
  
 I am given the cart time to break in (I've read it needs time to open up), but am already planning on upgrading the cart to the Exact 2 (also a micro-line stylus, which I think rides the groove more closely and brings out more detail).
  
 We'll see... but so far I am loving the new Rega. The Thorens will move to the living room, when the wife has recovered from the 'table spend and I can finally get some speakers for the 2-channel system.


----------



## bbophead

I know nothing about Rega cartridges.  When I bought my 6 from the dealer, I specified the 2M Black.  Why, because I've always had faith in the Ortofon sound I've known for maybe forty years.  It has never disappointed me.
  
 2 cents.


----------



## Krutsch

bbophead said:


> I know nothing about Rega cartridges.  *When I bought my 6 from the dealer, I specified the 2M Black.*  Why, because I've always had faith in the Ortofon sound I've known for maybe forty years.  It has never disappointed me.
> 
> 2 cents.


 
  
 I'm curious: I've read that the 2m Black is very sensitive to VTA, which is only adjustable on the RP3 with the addition of spacers (maybe this is also true on your 6). Did your dealer ignore that and just mount it as-is or did they raise the tonearm with a spacer?
  
 By the way, I've read nothing but great reviews on the Black and Bronze and have considered those, as well, to replace the Elys 2.


----------



## bbophead

Of course he used a spacer.  They've been selling Regas for many years.
  
 I've never had a problem with tracking anything, plus, it sounds so good.
  
 It tracks like my old Shure V15 Type V, a champion in that respect. 
  
 1.8
  

  
 I hope I found the right pic.  lol.


----------



## Timoteo80

grokit said:


> I just pulled the trigger on one of these, it should be a big improvement on my 2m Red and finally give my GCPH something to do as it's only 0.25 mV:
> 
> [m


----------



## Timoteo80

timoteo80 said:


> grokit said:
> 
> 
> > I just pulled the trigger on one of these, it should be a big improvement on my 2m Red and finally give my GCPH something to do as it's only 0.25 mV:
> ...


----------



## bbophead

Wow, replying to a post from 2011.  You're playin' with my mind!


----------



## grokit

timoteo80 said:


> timoteo80 said:
> 
> 
> > grokit said:
> ...


 
 I'm still around 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 I still use that cart and really like it. I was thinking of moving to the 103R, but my AU300LC step-up converter works perfect for the 103's .030Mv output while the 103R's even lower output of .025Mv is outside of its power curve. Denon makes other step-up converters, but I really like the lively dynamics of the 103 with my particular setup and decided that I have no reason to upgrade. I wish I would have figured that out earlier however, because I have a sealed 103r with an upgraded stylus that I would like to exchange somehow for the equivalent upgraded 103 model at some point.
  
 The 103 is the most musical cartridge I've listened to on my setup, compared to mid-range Ortofons and Grados. It also has the best bass, but it's the mids that really stand out for me. It's not the most micro-detailed on the high end, but it's certainly no slouch in that department either. Overall I find it to be very balanced. My turntable has a lot of dampening but a lively mat and I think it really mates well with the 103. The only pause is the extremely low output of both of these carts, as a .005Mv difference becomes very apparent at such a low level; neither work very well with my GCPH alone.
  
_edited to change .05 to .005 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## bbophead

grokit said:


> timoteo80 said:
> 
> 
> > timoteo80 said:
> ...


 

 Nice.  Glad you're happy.


----------



## Timoteo80

bbophead said:


> Wow, replying to a post from 2011.  You're playin' with my mind!




Hahaha yeah well I'm new here & was reading old posts


----------



## Krutsch

krutsch said:


> *We'll see... but so far I am loving the new Rega*. The Thorens will move to the living room, when the wife has recovered from the 'table spend and I can finally get some speakers for the 2-channel system.


 
  
 Today, I added the Rega white belt and TT PSU (power supply and speed control) upgrades.
  
 I am surprised what a difference that made... playing very familiar records and shaking my head. I am officially a Rega fan-boy.


----------



## bbophead

krutsch said:


> krutsch said:
> 
> 
> > *We'll see... but so far I am loving the new Rega*. The Thorens will move to the living room, when the wife has recovered from the 'table spend and I can finally get some speakers for the 2-channel system.
> ...


 

 I like that set up very much.  We have a little in common, Rega/WOO/Grado.


----------



## Digital-Deviant

This little set-up is great for late night vinyl sessions!


----------



## bbophead

Good stuff.
  
 I'm a Woo/Rega fan, too.


----------



## Skylab




----------



## asilker

Here's mine. Heavily modified SL1200 MKII with Jelco 750d, Denon 103r, and cinemag (budgie) SUTs. Phono stage is a Rogue 99 Magnum.





skylab said:


>



Skylab, nice to see you on another forum. Those Chapman's are still getting a daily use over here and probably a fresh veneer soon


----------



## Skylab

asilker said:


> Here's mine. Heavily modified SL1200 MKII with Jelco 750d, Denon 103r, and cinemag (budgie) SUTs. Phono stage is a Rogue 99 Magnum.
> 
> Skylab, nice to see you on another forum. Those Chapman's are still getting a daily use over here and probably a fresh veneer soon




Hey you too man! Nice TT, and that's awesome about the Chapmans.


----------



## Timoteo80

Here is a quick shot of my restored Lenco L75 TT with at95e cart. My dad purchased it in about 1969 while stationed in Germany. He handed it down to me stock & I turned it into a project. I built the plinth, had some milleork done, rebuilt the spindle, required most (still need new wires inside tonearm & headshell tho).

It's connected to a Rolls Bellari VP-130 phono stage, a Bottlehead Crack amp & into HD600s. Really enjoying this setup!


----------



## bbophead

Nice job!


----------



## djchup

Not exactly an audiophile setup but posting anyways


----------



## HesNot

Wow there are some amazing (and amazingly high end) setups on this thread - as a relatively new member I admit I have not made it through all 300+ pages but have "audited" a representative sample and concluded I have no business posting my rather plebian setup here for fear of total embarassment... 
  
 Maybe I'll summon the courage later but for now I've really enjoyed this thread!


----------



## Krutsch

hesnot said:


> Wow there are some amazing (and amazingly high end) setups on this thread - as a relatively new member I admit I have not made it through all 300+ pages but have "audited" a representative sample and *concluded I have no business posting my rather plebian setup here *for fear of total embarassment...
> 
> Maybe I'll summon the courage later but for now I've really enjoyed this thread!


 
  
 No need to worry about anything like that ... please post pictures of your rig. Trust me, whatever anyone has, someone else has something a LOT better, but we still like to see pictures of other people's gear ('tables in this thread).
  
 Post away!


----------



## Wil

Technics 1210M5G with Origin Live Silver Arm and Hana EL cartridge with Soundcare footers.
  
 Photostage is a modified Jolida JD9 with auricaps. 
  
 Rest of the system: 
  
 Amp: Line Magnetic LM519ia 
 DAC: Gustard A20h
 USB interface: Singxer SU-1 (i2s into DAC)
 Speakers: GPA 604-8h-ii (Altec 604)
 Headphones: HD800S 
 Cabling: all Belden ( 8402 / 9497 )


----------



## bbophead

A serious set up!
  
 Nicely done and congratulations.


----------



## leftside

djchup said:


> Not exactly an audiophile setup but posting anyways


 

 Nice setup. A minor change could make some difference here. The vibrations from your speakers will affect the turntable. Perhaps you could get some speaker stands for them and push the table a little to the left?


----------



## leftside




----------



## bbophead

Wowzers!  Mac City.  Mighty pretty!
  
 Looks like a great near field set up.  Your phono seems to have a rectifier similar to one of mine.
  

  
 I've been thinking about a Mac integrated amp.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## leftside

It's actually the DAC that has the rectifier. The phono stage is solid state and resides under the turntable.
  
 Lot's of good Mac integrated amps to choose from. I have a Mac C100 preamp for sale right now, but not an integrated.


----------



## bbophead

My bad.  What do I know?
  
 Yeah, need an integrated.  Fewer boxes.


----------



## desmortum

Sony PS-HX500


----------



## Hijodelbrx

Audio truths 101 - NOTHING in the audio chain is more susceptible to vibration than a turntable.  You should NEVER put a TT on top of another piece of gear.  Micro vibrations, heat...Here's something you can try easily; listen to your TT where you have it now, and than place it elsewhere and give it a listen, you may be pleasantly surprised.  But even if yr not I'd strongly recommend moving the TT!


----------



## basman

Still spinning this old music machine:


----------



## dosley01

basman said:


> Still spinning this old music machine:


 
  
 Nice Aries Black Knight Platter on the Scout!


----------



## basman

dosley01 said:


> Nice Aries Black Knight Platter on the Scout!




The first owner put it together and really like it so I took it and sold my regular scout.


----------



## PitBul34

My system: Thorens TD-160 Super armed by Audiocraft AC-3000 unipivot tonearm. Cartridges in use: Transfiguration Temper Supreme & Ortofon Rohmann.


----------



## sfoclt

hesnot said:


> Maybe I'll summon the courage later but for now I've really enjoyed this thread!


 
  
 Garrard 401 / Schick12 / Schick graphite headshell / Denon 103R
 <3 LH (zzl)


----------



## bbophead

Love the plinth with the wall photo (#2).
  
 There seems to be a lot of buttons on the right hand side.


----------



## PitBul34

> My system: Thorens TD-160 Super armed by Audiocraft AC-3000 unipivot tonearm. Cartridges in use: Transfiguration Temper Supreme & Ortofon Rohmann.


 
  
 Thorens TD-160 turntable plays Harry Belafonte (Ortofon Rohmann MC-cartridge):
  

  
 Denafrips 'Ares' R2R Ladder DAC plays Harry Belafonte (DSD64):


----------



## penmarker

Got my acrylic dust cover today.
Glad I can toss away that horrid cardboard cover I put over the platter. Now I can just dust the cover instead of the turntable crevices.


----------



## analogsurviver

A collateral damage #? while on youtube too precious not to share. Never knew something this eye catching ever existed:


----------



## soundfanz

My  modded Lenco 75 with Alphason HR100S tonearm


----------



## bbophead

analogsurviver said:


> A collateral damage #? while on youtube too precious not to share. Never knew something this eye catching ever existed:



Nice!  Thanks for posting.  My first reaction was, what's a Rega glass platter doing there?  HA.


----------



## Mojo777 (May 22, 2017)

Mark Lanegan's Blues Funeral on my VPI Classic. Just amazing stuff.

Also got the SS threaded clamp and MDF base recently. Nice improvement!


----------



## Krutsch

Mojo777 said:


> Mark Lanegan's Blues Funeral on my VPI Classic. Just amazing stuff.
> 
> Also got the SS threaded clamp and MDF base recently. Nice improvement!



Beautiful setup... congrats!


----------



## Oscar-HiFi

Nothing special here, just a Project Debut Carbon with a cork/rubber mat and iFi Audio iPhono preamp


----------



## bbophead

Mojo777 said:


> Mark Lanegan's Blues Funeral on my VPI Classic. Just amazing stuff.
> 
> Also got the SS threaded clamp and MDF base recently. Nice improvement!


Beauty!  Looks like a great system.


Oscar-HiFi said:


> Nothing special here, just a Project Debut Carbon with a cork/rubber mat and iFi Audio iPhono preamp


Looks real nice to me!


----------



## analogsurviver

bbophead said:


> Nice!  Thanks for posting.  My first reaction was, what's a Rega glass platter doing there?  HA.



I can no longer remember - exactly -  which video of Transcriptors Transcriber, the ultimate (1979 ?) expression of David Gammon's idea of low mass/high compliance approach, has resulted in the discovery of the Kurtzmann from 1921 - so I decided to post all the suspects. Right off the bat - from the original brochure, no peeping ( I do have it in my archive ) :

" ... mechanisms are fascinating to operate and watch ... "







TBH - the real video I have been searching for was for the Transcriptors Vestigal tonearm - one that is - at least visually - correctly set up. There are better quality and resolution videos of Vestigal in action available ( usually on the Trancriptors Skeleton turntable ) - only to show ridiculously poor set-up ( one having VTA off by a "mere" 30+ degrees ... (!) ) or modified units. This one is rather murky as a video, but does show the stock  Vestigal in action set up correctly and in great detail : 




All of these "fish tanks" precede anything Rega - and the first Rega TT, Rega Planet,  was a knock off Transcriptors - on the cheap : https://zstereo.co.uk/2015/02/16/rega-planet/

The greatest failure of all Transcriptors turntables has always been the record support - up to maximum 8 minuscule rubber pads, hopelessly inadequate of supporting the record across its whole area. I have seen glass and acrylic "mats" used on Transcriptors decks instead of those rubber pads as early as 1977 - and if using glass variety, only a slightly less clear "optics"
than in this "matless = stock" Skeleton is achievable - for those with aesthetics as a prime priority : as of lately there is 5 media limit per post, only as a link :


The Rega Planet had the same problem - and used the same solution initially. Fast forward, it evolved to today's range.

As Michell Engineering has been producing Transcriptors Reference turntables at some point in time both as OEM for Transcriptors and under its own name ( and possibly for Transrotor in Germany ), eventually the record support issue has been solved by inversing the traditional Transcriptors platter upside down, first introduced in Michell Gyrodec and its subsequnt versions; here a nicely done video on SE :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L9C5M-vWoQ

As you can see, this last video uses a Rega arm - a design that made most other arms of comparable cost obsolete at its introduction. It takes much, much more money to buy a trully better tonearm - and I hold Rega arms in much higher esteem than its turntables. I have yet  to come across their latest cartridge 0fferings - Apheta 2 and up  - which appearently solved the sample to sample differences better than almost everybody else - that, despite decidedly non-Rega pricing, might even elevate them to bargain status.


----------



## calipilot227 (May 29, 2017)

Made some sawdust in my garage yesterday

(SP-15, RB250, 2M Bronze. Out of view below: Phonobox, O2 serving as a preamp, Firstwatt Aleph J)


----------



## analogsurviver

calipilot227 said:


> Made some sawdust in my garage yesterday
> 
> (SP-15, RB250, 2M Bronze. Out of view below: Phonobox, O2 serving as a preamp, Firstwatt Aleph J)


Which kind of the sawdust was left in your garage ? I like the " precise, but raw enough"  finish of the plinth. How does it sound ?

Should you decide to stick with this TT for a while, you may wish to upgrade the tonearm to Audiomods
http://www.audiomods.co.uk/index.html
( whatever the current - or , depending on the money and skill available, even one of their kits ) - it is a drop in replacement, as it starts life as RB-250 or, more recently, RB202/303 .


----------



## alan_g

nottingham analogue spacedeck


----------



## alan_g




----------



## bbophead

calipilot227 said:


> Made some sawdust in my garage yesterday
> 
> (SP-15, RB250, 2M Bronze. Out of view below: Phonobox, O2 serving as a preamp, Firstwatt Aleph J)


Love the look.  Bet it sounds terrific!


----------



## calipilot227

bbophead said:


> Love the look.  Bet it sounds terrific!



It does indeed! I can't get over the absolutely pitch black background, quieter than any belt drive table I've heard.



analogsurviver said:


> Which kind of the sawdust was left in your garage ? I like the " precise, but raw enough"  finish of the plinth. How does it sound ?
> .



Baltic birch, to be exact. I actually haven't glued the layers together yet, been too busy listening to take it back apart. Will stain or varnish, leaving the lamination exposed, I like that look.


----------



## analogsurviver

Ooops - CAUTION ALERT ! I hope you do realize that layers of wood ( or any other material for that matter ) behave much differently when just placed on top of each other, when bolted together and when glued together . The quality of sound in most cases decreases - in that exact very order. Just placing on top of each other is not practical for commercially available products, glued together sounds poor, which leaves us with bolted together as the most used option. It has all to do with damping - by more/too firm contact all friction between the layers is eliminated and therefore damping becomes very poor. Many turntable platters an plinths are bolted affairs as a result - almost never glued together.


----------



## alan_g

nothing special linnlp12


----------



## bbophead

alan_g said:


> nothing special linnlp12


All good turntables are special, especially with green vinyl!


----------



## calipilot227

alan_g said:


> nothing special linnlp12



How many top-tier turntables do you have????


----------



## alan_g

a nottingham analogue spacedeck linn lp12 not so top tier project rpm6 and a technics 1210 mkii


----------



## calipilot227

Need to get you an SP-10 mk2 (or mk3) to round out the herd


----------



## NEOhioDude

This is one of the threads that convinced me to try analog again! I am enjoying the experience 

Here is my modest set up - ProJect RPM 9 table with a Ortofon 2M Black cart, ProJect DS+ phono preamp.

My apologies for the poor quality pictures!


----------



## bbophead

NEOhioDude said:


> This is one of the threads that convinced me to try analog again! I am enjoying the experience
> 
> Here is my modest set up - ProJect RPM 9 table with a Ortofon 2M Black cart, ProJect DS+ phono preamp.
> 
> My apologies for the poor quality pictures!


Nothin' wrong with this.  Looks like a lot of listening pleasure!


----------



## calipilot227

I accidentally a new tonearm. Grace 940. Plinth still isn't finished.


----------



## penmarker

calipilot227 said:


> I accidentally a new tonearm. Grace 940. Plinth still isn't finished.


Did you accidentally the tonearm? 
The whole tonearm?


----------



## kid vic

Oracle Delphi, DBL the Wand+ tonearm and Denon DL110 cart

(my other carts will be swapped in soon)


----------



## Quinto




----------



## bbophead

Man, you got good taste all 'round, so to speak.


----------



## Arsis (Oct 26, 2017)

Here's my new Teac TN-300. I didn't have super high expectations but I am thoroughly impressed! The stock cartridge sounds nice but I have ordered a Shure M97xE .  My preamp is a Cambridge Audio 540P.


----------



## tkcha (Oct 30, 2017)

Hi every turntable lovers just yesterday I did  shoot out  some turntables,carts with my Allnic H3000 phono stage, potential upgrade analog system so their was 4 turntables and 4 carts.  Kronos Pro, The Sparta, AMG Viella V12,Vpi Avenger with Ortofon Winfeld, A90,Benz Micro SLR Gullwing ,Lyra Etna Sl were  the line ups. Finale winner was easy Kronos pro with Etna SL but as you know just too much moola so I go for second winner AMG Viella with Winfeld and HRS platform I pull the trigger on them 3 more weeks to come.
here pictures of place 


my system without turntable


----------



## mulveling (Oct 30, 2017)

Wow, that 1st room's gear has got to run well north of $500 K when all accounted for (beautiful). A well-heeled dealer perhaps? What a great platform to test various analog setups, and your AMG choice seems very solid -- congrats! Was the Windfeld the older model, or the new Ti? I had an older Windfeld MC some years ago, but my TT setup was more "budget" back then, and I ended up having issues with aggressive treble -- which might have been bad synergy with the heavy/undamped Fidelity Research FR64fx tonearm and/or my Tannoy Kensingtons SE (at the time). But it did some things fantastically well, like BASS (quality and quantity), clean leading edges, and clarity; I'd love to try a Ti in my current setup.


----------



## tkcha

Too bad its older Winfeld with 100 hours on them I have for that 1400$ canadien .  good price for sure.


----------



## mulveling

Big-time junkie here, obviously. It's gotten worse over the 10 years since I got into it. Currently playing with Koetsu Coralstone Platinum, Koetsu Onyx (Alnico) and Shelter Harmony cartridges with a couple different Bob's Devices SUTs. Clearaudio TT; Graham & Clearaudio arms.


----------



## tkcha

also mine will be about 40 grand with phono cable, platform,power cable and inter cable.


----------



## mulveling (Oct 30, 2017)

tkcha said:


> Too bad its older Winfeld with 100 hours on them I have for that 1400$ canadien .  good price for sure.


That's a GREAT price on a low hours Windfeld! Definitely a killer for that kind of money. Good pickup! I have no problem buying expensive used cartridges if it looks like it was well cared for; that's how I first got into Koetsu.


----------



## tkcha

Mulveling I know you from audiogon   yours also top notch system specially carts collections .  I envy you for crazy expensive   koetsu coralstone .  I guess that is your favorite cart. would you let me know your take for each carts please !


----------



## mulveling (Oct 30, 2017)

Thanks man. Awesome system you're building up, too! Here's my Koetsu impressions:
Perhaps unsurprisingly, the Koetsu stone bodies are all far more similar to each other, than not. Yes, the Coralstone Platinum is my favorite by a small margin -- it's just slightly more lifelike and organic than the rest. It is never dull, never wanting for clarity, has the richest tone, most unimpeded musical flow, and is always the absolute last cartridge to tip into aggressive/harsh territory (and only if the recording absolutely begs for it). Just gorgeously musical compared to the "technical" cartridges, but with easily good enough technicalities itself to not leave me wanting (I certainly cannot speak for other audiophiles, of course).

The Onyx Platinum and Alnico are next; a very close 2nd. These all benefit from 25-40 hours burn-in, by the way. The Coralstone (brand new) starts out spectacular from hour 0 and gradually gets better from there. The Onyx Platinum (Koetsu rebuild) for some reason took some time to get to where it needed to be, but then significantly closed the gap to the Coralstone. The Onyx Alnico is still burning in (post rebuild), and is a bit hard to get a handle on because it has 2x the output of the Platinum magnets. I was actually expecting the Alnico to be the warmest of the bunch (based on its pre-rebuild sound), but that hasn't been the case yet. It still has that Koetsu voice for sure (especially vocals), but is perhaps a bit more robust in dynamics while being a tad less refined. Still burning in, though!

The Jade Platinum has over 500 hours on it, and still sounds awesome, but is just a hair more mellow than the above carts (which are all very low hours). I'm not sure how much of that is the hours vs. the stone differences, since I haven't heard the Jade when new or rebuilt. Also it's entirely possible that Koetsu builds have gotten better in recent years.

The Rosewood Signature Platinum I have is at least 15 years old now, said to be one of the last Sugano Sr. builds. Never rebuilt; about 600 hours. Very similar in voice to the other Koetsus, but with less powerful bass vs. the stone bodies. Again, I expected this to be warmer before I heard it. It's got a very clean and airy sound that is great, but honestly I prefer the more balanced sound of the stones. I've long read impressions of those "syrupy" sounding RSP's, but wow that's not what I hear at all. Physically this is perhaps the most beautiful, with a gorgeous lacquer over the dark Rosewood grain.

If I sell any, it will the the RSP first, then the Jade. The others are unlikely to be going anywhere, ever. The Alnico Onyx was my very first Koetsu listen that got me hooked, so I'm attached to it. The Onyx Platinum is the cart I've put by far the most hours on, and gotten so much enjoyment from, so I'm attached to it. The Coralstone was my dream cart and my 1st Koetsu purchase from new, so I'm attached to it too 

I would love to hear an Urushi just to fill that gap in my knowledge, and also I think they're visually gorgeous.


----------



## tkcha (Oct 31, 2017)

mulveling said:


> Thanks man. Awesome system you're building up, too! Here's my Koetsu impressions:
> Perhaps unsurprisingly, the Koetsu stone bodies are all far more similar to each other, than not. Yes, the Coralstone Platinum is my favorite by a small margin -- it's just slightly more lifelike and organic than the rest. It is never dull, never wanting for clarity, has the richest tone, most unimpeded musical flow, and is always the absolute last cartridge to tip into aggressive/harsh territory (and only if the recording absolutely begs for it). Just gorgeously musical compared to the "technical" cartridges, but with easily good enough technicalities itself to not leave me wanting (I certainly cannot speak for other audiophiles, of course).
> 
> The Onyx Platinum and Alnico are next; a very close 2nd. These all benefit from 25-40 hours burn-in, by the way. The Coralstone (brand new) starts out spectacular from hour 0 and gradually gets better from there. The Onyx Platinum (Koetsu rebuild) for some reason took some time to get to where it needed to be, b
> ...


----------



## tkcha

Thank you . Down the road Coralstone Platinum,Gold Finger statement, Air Tight PC1 Opus,Etna SL1 will be my upgraded dream carts and second arm also . So you like bobs devices SUT that surprise me how about your phono stage? I like Allnic H3000 so much do you have any experience with Allnic ?


----------



## leftside

Thanks for your post @mulveling. I'm currently using a Dynavector 20*2L cart with a VPI Scoutmaster Signature turntable, an Audia Flight phono pre and a McIntosh C500T preamp. I'm looking to upgrade the cart next year. I enjoy the sound of the vinyl setup (warm, smooth and relaxed), but since I purchased my new DAC I feel the turntable is lacking a little in dynamics.

I had an Allnic H-1201 phono pre, but I felt it was just a little "too much tubes" for my vinyl system (with a tube preamp and a tube headphone amp). I felt the Audia Flight was a better fit for my system.


----------



## tkcha

I heard Audia Flight on a  few occasions seems like very good SS phono stage so are you happy with that did you compare different top SS phono stage?


leftside said:


> Thanks for your post @mulveling. I'm currently using a Dynavector 20*2L cart with a VPI Scoutmaster Signature turntable, an Audia Flight phono pre and a McIntosh C500T preamp. I'm looking to upgrade the cart next year. I enjoy the sound of the vinyl setup (warm, smooth and relaxed), but since I purchased my new DAC I feel the turntable is lacking a little in dynamics.
> 
> I had an Allnic H-1201 phono pre, but I felt it was just a little "too much tubes" for my vinyl system (with a tube preamp and a tube headphone amp). I felt the Audia Flight was a better fit for my system.


----------



## leftside

The Audia Flight became available at a good price locally, so I took it. Only compared to cheaper external phono stages and internal phono stages in my preamps. Not a huge difference to the phono stage in my C500T, but enough to warrant the extra expense. I might notice large differences when I upgrade the cart.


----------



## tkcha

for your upgrade cart try Etna SL I was very impressed by sound also A95,ZYX Universe Premium  so many good carts.  Man you have some happy problem for choosing best cart for your system good luck my friend.


----------



## tkcha

Hi  all the vinyl junkies finally got turntable delivered and set up by turntable guru (mark jones) he drove more than 6 hours from toronto to here in montreal.  My turntable is AMG Viella 12 with Ortofon Winfeld cartridge and phono stage is Allnic H3000 latest version.  Phono cable is Audio sensibility Signature OCC silver cable to phonostage.  From phonostage to Allnic T-2000 25th Anniversary integrated amp I use unknown to north america but one of very best  Allnic Mu-7 XLR cable. Sound of this set up just music to my ears.   I Am just over the moon now .  enjoy my set up pictures.


----------



## tkcha

some more


----------



## mulveling (Nov 22, 2017)

Beautiful, tkcha! You're definitely doing it right. The HRS platform under the AMG seems like a really, really good idea. Have you done any comparisons with/without? I know that the quality and finish of HRS products is superb. Of course the TT itself is gorgeous, but now I know firsthand how isolation products can be the unsung hero of a top-notch analog rig


----------



## tkcha

mulveling said:


> Beautiful, tkcha! You're definitely doing it right. The HRS platform under the AMG seems like a really, really good idea. Have you done any comparisons with/without? I know that the quality and finish of HRS products is superb. Of course the TT itself is gorgeous, but now I know firsthand how isolation products can be the unsung hero of a top-notch analog rig


Hi Mulveling no I didnt do any comparisons because mass loaded unsuspended de


mulveling said:


> Beautiful, tkcha! You're definitely doing it right. The HRS platform under the AMG seems like a really, really good idea. Have you done any comparisons with/without? I know that the quality and finish of HRS products is superb. Of course the TT itself is gorgeous, but now I know firsthand how isolation products can be the unsung hero of a top-notch analog rig


Hi Mulveing  no I didnt do any comparisons because I believe mass loaded unsuspended design TT need suspend isolation Platform with HRS build special unit distribute weight unevenly to left side of foot and suspension more weight because AMG V12 TT more heavy on left side by the way sound just so much more music than any other digital unit I have experienced.  For last 3 weeks I was busy shopping vinyls bought about 800.  thank you very much for your kind worlds !


----------



## Oregonian

Here's my Pioneer Spec rack system with my original Yamaha turntable.................


----------



## bbophead

Did you post a pic?


----------



## Oregonian




----------



## bbophead

Oregonian said:


>


Love the vintage!


----------



## kid vic (Jan 28, 2018)

Oracle Delphi w/ DBL The Wand+ tonearm with Denon DL-301/110/103LCmkII or Sumiko Talisman>Lounge Audio Copla>Akai AM-2650> headphones or speakers


----------



## Glmoneydawg (Jan 27, 2018)




----------



## Mojo777




----------



## Skylab




----------



## Oregonian

Rob, great minds and all that.................


----------



## leftside

A new addition to the family


----------



## Redcarmoose

Dam!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## Packgrog (Mar 4, 2018)

God, I love the Prime Sig. Gorgeous. My own setup is more humble and far more piecemeal (Scout Jr, damped motor pod, Michell clamp, Achromat, Audiomods Classic tonearm, Phoenix Engineering Falcon motor controller, DIY tachometer).






I also recently added a new component for my analog-to-digital archival: The RME Babyface Pro. Recordings are on a whole new level from my previous ADC, and the RME actually even works quite well as a DAC and headphone amp for the notoriously picky Denon AH-D2000!


----------



## kid vic

leftside said:


> A new addition to the family



Is the marble under your beautiful TT warped?


----------



## leftside

It’s slightly raised. It will be replaced soon with a custom wooden isolation table with adjustable feet.


----------



## kid vic

leftside said:


> It’s slightly raised. It will be replaced soon with a custom wooden isolation table with adjustable feet.



I use an inch and a 1/4 thick butcher block on diversitech anti vibration blocks, works well and is pretty cheap too.
Also, we are both Vancouver based and use Dynaudio speaker!


----------



## leftside

kid vic said:


> I use an inch and a 1/4 thick butcher block on diversitech anti vibration blocks, works well and is pretty cheap too.
> Also, we are both Vancouver based and use Dynaudio speaker!


I'm doing something very similar. The woodworker around the corner from me made some very nice amp stands, and they are also going to make me the isolation stand for the TT. I'll add the feet/anti-vibration blocks myself. I don't think there's too many of us on here from Vancouver?


----------



## kid vic

I've seen maybe 3 other members thus far


----------



## analogsurviver

I second the use of RMA Babyface Pro. Recently, I had on loan its predecessor, the Babyface, and that was no slouch either. Much better than I remember some much earlier RME units. The rest of the system is also obviously well thought out. Congrats & enjoy !


Packgrog said:


> God, I love the Prime Sig. Gorgeous. My own setup is more humble and far more piecemeal (Scout Jr, damped motor pod, Michell clamp, Achromat, Audiomods Classic tonearm, Phoenix Engineering Falcon motor controller, DIY tachometer).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Packgrog

Yeah, I was surprised by how good the Babyface Pro really was. It took a few minutes to get used to the different sonic characteristics, but it's been quite pleasing, both for headphone listening, and vinyl to digital archival. It's a pity I didn't have it yet for the last local meet. Next time!


----------



## wuwhere




----------



## ostewart

Cheap and cheerful Pro-Ject Debut Carbon, had it for a couple of years now, served me very well and no motor hum issues.


----------



## DJtheAudiophile (Mar 16, 2018)

Edit. Wrong thread.


----------



## Funambulistic (Mar 17, 2018)

My humble, yet fun, contribution.


----------



## wuwhere (Mar 30, 2018)

Finally got me a phono preamp, a Bel Canto Pre2P.  Now to set it all up with a Denon DL-103.


----------



## ostewart

Project Debut Carbon > Marantz PM-5005 > German Maestro GMP400 (toxic scorpion 24awg cable, dekoni elite velour pads).

Listening to Dead Swans


----------



## floydfan33 (Apr 1, 2018)

Rega RP3 spinning Porcupine Tree In Absentia White Vinyl


----------



## Redcarmoose

wuwhere said:


> Finally got me a phono preamp, a Bel Canto Pre2P.  Now to set it all up with a Denon DL-103.



Just purchased a DL103, time to try moving coil!


----------



## asilker

Here's me again


----------



## shaizada

I have a few more...but I'll post these up for now.  I LOVE vinyl....


----------



## penmarker

This is a wild guess, just a shot in the dark, do you, I mean by any chance, are, I mean just guessing here - do you like vinyl?


----------



## mulveling

Yeah but...which one is your favorite?!


----------



## leftside

Added a custom isolation stand that I had made by a local woodworker. Reclaimed Western Red Cedar.


----------



## Monoespacio

Custom Rega RP1 with Ortofon Bronze.


----------



## Amictus (Apr 20, 2018)

This is the new arrival. Happiness.


----------



## DJtheAudiophile




----------



## natemact

shaizada said:


> I have a few more...but I'll post these up for now.  I LOVE vinyl....


Wow! Was going through your gear!! 
Schroeder 
Jan Allaerts
Ear
Einstein
Jadis
KS Elation/Emotion
Stillpoints rack!! etc...
Very impressive sir!
The only relation I have to any of your gear is your Bob Devices SUT. Looks like Sky, that's what I had and loved it so!! Heard the A23 Hommage T1 and my gawd was it special! But at $5K so far out of my budget for a SUT it wasn't even funny. Even $1250 on my Sky 30 was asking too much. It's nice to have Bernard Li on your side - and only down the street - at times like those! He's the Canadian distributor for BD as well as other fine gear like Scheu, EMT, Charisma Audio and WTL to name only a few. 

Anyway, I get to play with six figure systems at the audio shop I work at but your inventory impresses big time! Even more so because you're into headphones too! Rare in NA!!


----------



## Skylab




----------



## Schnarpf

Packgrog said:


> God, I love the Prime Sig. Gorgeous. My own setup is more humble and far more piecemeal (Scout Jr, damped motor pod, Michell clamp, Achromat, Audiomods Classic tonearm, Phoenix Engineering Falcon motor controller, DIY tachometer).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you record with RX?


----------



## Packgrog

Schnarpf said:


> Do you record with RX?


Nope, just use it for edits. I record with Adobe Audition.


----------



## Podster

Man, stumbled onto Turntable paradise here! Some absolutely awesome tables and rigs for that matter, keep on spinning as nothing beats a precision analog setup for playback IMO


----------



## natemact

Podster said:


> Man, stumbled onto Turntable paradise here! Some absolutely awesome tables and rigs for that matter, keep on spinning as nothing beats a precision analog setup for playback IMO


Nice! A GTA! We both get it : ) Cool suspension plus even more isolation, you clearly have that part down! It's too bad they cost so much (but stuff like these and cables typically sell for at least 25% off) but Nordost Sort Kones work really well at dissipating the internal vibration made by any component with moving parts. Biggest benefit brought by the BC I used was soundstage height grew by a couple feet. It's a very noticeable improvement. I can also attest to upgrading to Symmetrex arm (not full LTD tonearm) on my Amedeus MK1 and the Auditoirum A23 mat. Symmetrex arm gives you improvements in bass response and image focus. A23 mat can suck a little bit of air out of the treble extremes but provides a more solid foundation for bass notes to emerge from. Better suited to rocking type stuff than stock mat.


----------



## Podster (Jun 25, 2018)

THX @natemact , with two boys wrapping up HS and headed to college soon I don't get a lot of time in my Man Cave (attic) these days but more spin time is rapidly approaching As mentioned my table is suspended by cables from my attics gabled roof which ended a terrible foot fault issue. The Bright Star and Isoblocks are probably over kill, at 51Lbs with the massive rubber feet I find this thing dead quite and solid through the freq range. Biggest improvement I've had since owning it is my new AT VM740ML (Micro Line) cartridge. Hard to believe that a $349 cartridge destroys my old Dynavector 20X but it does. Not sure if it's the dual moving magnet or the deep groove tracing of the Micro Line but this is the vinyl sound I've been seeking (after spending a ton on cartridges and step ups over the years)!!! Of course the deep groove for sure makes you keep your vinyl very clean.  I'm still amazed every time I listen to Mr. Firebaugh's design as one would look at this tone arm and say there is no way that thing can accurately track but after about 2-3 minutes they are stunned. Anyway I'm glad you love yours and are getting enjoyment out of it. Cheers





Oh yeah, meant to post what this table feeds into. Not quite to total class "A" but reaching


----------



## Packgrog

Podster said:


> Oh yeah, meant to post what this table feeds into. Not quite to total class "A" but reaching


Cool setup! If you ever have to rearrange the turntable setup, I would strongly recommend ditching the cork & rubber feet in favor of something like Herbie's Tenderfeet. I had a Mapleshade platform briefly on feet like that, and not only did they stain the hell out of the maple, but the also didn't sound very good. Good for isolation from footfalls, but awful for resonance tuning. Grungebuster dots are much more synergistic. It might not be quite as noticeable with all of the different isolation you have going on with that setup, so don't take the whole setup apart just for that, but if you have to do so for any other reason, swap out those platform feet while you're at it!


----------



## Podster

Packgrog said:


> Cool setup! If you ever have to rearrange the turntable setup, I would strongly recommend ditching the cork & rubber feet in favor of something like Herbie's Tenderfeet. I had a Mapleshade platform briefly on feet like that, and not only did they stain the hell out of the maple, but the also didn't sound very good. Good for isolation from footfalls, but awful for resonance tuning. Grungebuster dots are much more synergistic. It might not be quite as noticeable with all of the different isolation you have going on with that setup, so don't take the whole setup apart just for that, but if you have to do so for any other reason, swap out those platform feet while you're at it!



Thank you @Packgrog , should I take this down I'll give these options some consideration. I was surprised at how well my secondary rig/table fared with a wall mount, I'm for sure going to try some more vibration isolation with the P-1 setup here


----------



## Packgrog

Podster said:


> Thank you @Packgrog , should I take this down I'll give these options some consideration. I was surprised at how well my secondary rig/table fared with a wall mount, I'm for sure going to try some more vibration isolation with the P-1 setup here


Oh yeah, that style of wall rack will likely benefit a lot from some further careful isolation (those metal brackets probably ring like a bell). Some regular Herbie's grungebuster washers between the bracket and wall where the bolts go into the wall MIGHT be enough to do the trick. Otherwise replace that bracket with something beefier that won't ring (tap any of that metal with a finger nail, and if it's not a dull thunk, it's a problem).

Herbie's products, when used strategically, are cost effective and amazing for vibration handling, both for isolation and synergistic tuning. Rubber or Sorbothane stop vibrations, but make the sound murky. Grungebuster doesn't steal life from the music when it stops external vibrations. Just something to consider, for anyone that doesn't already know about the stuff.


----------



## mulveling (Jul 3, 2018)

Not my "big rig" turntable, but this one is now dedicated to the pursuit of fine headphone sounds - a pursuit that will progress when I acquire a DIY T2 (the BHSE will always be a beauty, though) and mount a Koetsu stone body (Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, currently). The table is just back from a rebuild at SOTA to new Nova V specs. Should've had that done that years ago; what a lovely deck! It sounds better than a Schiity DAC, obviously


----------



## tumpux

mulveling said:


> Just wonder, how long is your Hawaii's umbilical cable?


----------



## mulveling

My BHSE is the stock cord from a few years back (don't know if it's changed); I'm not home to measure but it seems to be between 1.0m and 1.5m. It just reaches to the PSU as located in the pic, without significant strain on the connectors.


----------



## Podster (Jul 12, 2018)

Ran across a photo of my rig I had in 1991, table was the awesome direct drive Denon DP47F sitting on a 325Lb machining base I got from an engineering buddy working at UT Austin. Took two of us to load the slab into the custom rack built by my roommate who was a metallurgist. Bad picture of a picture but from the top down NAD 2200PE, NAD 4220 Tuner, NAD 1130 Pre Amp, DBX 3BX, Nakamichi RX303, Denon DCD 910U CDP, Sony 13" Color TV and the DP47F. The 200PE was driving JBL 4311B Control Room Monitors





Guess I could go even farther back to my first rig I bought my self in Germany while in the AF The common thread is they all have a table in themMan were those the days So for those who may have been around waaaaay back when we have a Techniques SL-23 belt drive (Pretty sure it had a Ortofon OM-10 Cart.) going thru a Pioneer SG-9500 Equalizer and a Pioneer SX-1050 driving larger Advents Ignore that goofy looking guy pointing out the fact he owns the Doobie Brother's "Living on the fault line" LOL


----------



## spookygonk

Everything about that last photo is awesome.

*Awesome*


----------



## Podster

LOL, THX @spookygonk , hard to believe it's been 40 years!


----------



## natemact

Clearly not the only _doobies_ you've owned


----------



## Podster

Clearly (or maybe it's still a little fuzzy) could be Irie I'm only 8 minutes away from 4:20


----------



## Redcarmoose

@https://www.head-fi.org/members/podster.54852/

I used to spend whole summers listening to those Advent speakers. Great memories, as they were the first introduction to so much music at 13 years old. Putting them on stands hahaha!


----------



## natemact

^^ bet they got you a ton of poon too


----------



## Redcarmoose (Jul 13, 2018)

After ten years at Head-Fi, this could easily be the best photo I have seen! Those Advents were everywhere!


----------



## natemact (Jul 12, 2018)

Redcarmoose said:


> After ten years at Head-Fi, this could easily be the best photo I have seen!


Easily best wall-paper too


----------



## Monoespacio




----------



## Podster (Jul 13, 2018)

natemact said:


> Easily best wall-paper too



Well renters in 1978 had few choices in wall paper design! I bought the vinyl covered larger Advents as I was on the cheap back then but they could literally suck every watt out of that 120WPC SX-1050 but for a two way acoustic they were very impressive. Before I left Germany '79 I had upgraded (course that is also a matter of opinion) to a Thoren's TD-115, Aiwa AD-6550 Cassette, Teac A-5300 R to R and then I ditched the SG9500 EQ in favor of a Dynamic 3 way speaker in the JBL L-3600's as a better option for me. Did I mention those were the days I always thought the wife's do-dads went well with the wall paper and really set my rig off











Oh, before I forget, nice Rega @Monoespacio


----------



## CJG888




----------



## Podster

CJG888 said:


>



Nice @CJG888 , my good friend recently completed his 301 and it sounds fantastic



 

Finally ended up going with the British Racing Green on that humongous plinth!


----------



## mrtim6 (Jul 17, 2018)

Not sure what’s impressing me most here Skylab? Your excellent taste in music are that fine looking turntable

In the meantime here’s my Yamaha GT-2000X...


----------



## Quinto

. oops wrong thread, sorry


----------



## Podster

Clean Yammy @mrtim6 I think the thing I liked the most was the "Bone" colored vinyl, for sure looks like a few cow heads I've seen baking in the sun over the years  That Benz is cherry @Skylab 

So found a folder with shots of my Amadeus with the original Dynavector on itWhy yes, that was a freshly cleaned slab! Dust bugs are fast critters


----------



## mrtim6

Thanks Podster I’m a big Yamaha fan especially the GT-2000 series, which IMHO are audiophile bargains performance wise.

Here’s a picture both GT-2000 & 2000X


----------



## Podster

Indeed Gigantic & TremendousThey have made some really nice and solid products over the years


----------



## Amictus

I have a nice new (to me) LP12 to keep me sane in the study. Grados and the AKG 712 Pro sound fine through the Audiolab 8000A, surprisingly.


----------



## CJG888

Why surprisingly? The 8000A was designed at a time when integrated amps had to have decent headphone outputs, and dedicated headphone amps were all but unheard of outside the studio.


----------



## Podster

So true and in the early days most integrated amps piggy backed off the speaker leads which lead to higher impedance numbers, since they came off the speaker leads they would have to place resistors in the path which drove the impedance up. The HD650 could take that but many low impedance cans would not sound very good. Over the years manufacturers have moved to the dedicated headphone amp section and of course a dedicated stand alone is best IMO but everyone has a preference.


----------



## Quinto




----------



## bbophead

Quinto said:


>


----------



## CrazyRay (Aug 26, 2018)

•) J.A. Michell GyroDec, SME 309 arm w/ Madrigal Carnegie One cartridge by Mark Levinson and Thorens Disc Stabilizer.
•) Nakamichi RX-505
•) Empire 698 turntable (1976) with a Shure V15 Type 4 cartridge and a Pro-Ject Tube Box II Phono Preamp.


----------



## CrazyRay

•) J.A. Michell GyroDec, SME 309 arm w/ Madrigal Carnegie One cartridge by Mark Levinson and Thorens Disc Stabilizer.
•) Nakamichi RX-505, Nakamichi RX-202, 
•) Empire 698 turntable with a Shure V15 Type 4 cartridge and a Pro-Ject Tube Box II Phono Preamp (1976).
•) Bang & Olufsen RX2 turntable
•) Kenwood KA-907 pre amp and Kenwood KT-917 Tuner. 
•) Sony CDP-X333ES CD Player


----------



## spookygonk

That's classy stuff alright.


----------



## Krutsch

CrazyRay said:


> •) J.A. Michell GyroDec, SME 309 arm w/ Madrigal Carnegie One cartridge by Mark Levinson and Thorens Disc Stabilizer.
> •) Nakamichi RX-505, Nakamichi RX-202,
> •) Empire 698 turntable with a Shure V15 Type 4 cartridge and a Pro-Ject Tube Box II Phono Preamp (1976).
> •) Bang & Olufsen RX2 turntable
> ...



Nice photography. We are going to need a "Show Us Your Tape Deck" thread, pretty soon.


----------



## Quinto




----------



## alan967tiger

I’ve recently set up my SME 20/3 with SME V arm and Koetsu Red T cart. I’m very pleased with it:


----------



## kid vic

alan967tiger said:


> I’ve recently set up my SME 20/3 with SME V arm and Koetsu Red T cart. I’m very pleased with it:





That is an incredible vinyl setup, congrats! A Koetsu/SME combo is serious business!


----------



## alan967tiger

kid vic said:


> That is an incredible vinyl setup, congrats! A Koetsu/SME combo is serious business!


Thank you - I'm certainly enjoying it


----------



## Roboturner913 (Sep 23, 2018)

Well, you all seem to have much nicer turntables than me. But I must say, this thing sounds pretty darn good. Technics SL-B20. I bought it off a guy from Craigslist about 5 years ago for 30 bucks. It was running like a top when I got it and still is.

I have zero complaints as far as the sound. I just wish it was black instead of silver. All my other components are black and it sticks out like a sore thumb.

I'm angling for a PLX-500 for Christmas. If anybody has experience with that table I'd love to hear about it.


----------



## Theabs (Sep 25, 2018)

My Sansui SR-838:


----------



## Skylab




----------



## bbophead

Skylab said:


>



TOTL, for sure.  Very impressive.  

Dayam, I'm so far behind when music streamers are vintage.


----------



## mrtim6

Very impressive looking setup Skylab - how does your vintage Denon DD compare?


----------



## Skylab

mrtim6 said:


> Very impressive looking setup Skylab - how does your vintage Denon DD compare?



Honestly the Denon is very, very close to the VPI in terms of sound quality. And in terms of features/ease of use the Denon is superior.


----------



## mrtim6

Just goes to show Skylab, how good the Japanese direct drive serious turntables were from the 70s & 80s.

According to some the finest ever Japanese direct drive turntable from that time was the Denon broadcast turntable the DP-100 (not the new Chinese Anniversary model). Your DP-60 comes from that heritage, so I’m not surprised it’s close to your VPI sonically.


----------



## mulveling

Never get tired of looking at great vinyl setups! I'm now almost 99% vinyl source (in listening hours) between my 2 rigs; barely 1% digital, if that  Love the vinyl life to death.
Better pic of my main spinner. Sorry if y'all seen these before:





And the headphone spinner:


----------



## cprime

mulveling said:


> Never get tired of looking at great vinyl setups! I'm now almost 99% vinyl source (in listening hours) between my 2 rigs; barely 1% digital, if that  Love the vinyl life to death.
> Better pic of my main spinner. Sorry if y'all seen these before:
> 
> 
> ...


Nice...very nice


----------



## Packgrog

mulveling said:


> Never get tired of looking at great vinyl setups! I'm now almost 99% vinyl source (in listening hours) between my 2 rigs; barely 1% digital, if that  Love the vinyl life to death.
> Better pic of my main spinner. Sorry if y'all seen these before:
> 
> 
> ...


Damn... Impressive!

My own continually upgraded but far more modest and patchwork rig:


----------



## Podster

Skylab said:


>



Beautiful Sky, just got that album for my birthday as well

@mulveling , wicked Clear Audio setup and the Sota is pretty sweet too 

Who knew the least expensive cartridge I've ever had on the Amadeus would be the best sounding cartridge I've ever had on it


----------



## CJG888

I’m also very happy with the 440MLb on my Garrard...


----------



## Podster

CJG888 said:


> I’m also very happy with the 440MLb on my Garrard...



Yes I believe since the cutter is micro line the tracker is logical and the closest to how the track is cut, my belief anyway (who knows I may just have my minds ear convinced) LOL


----------



## Podster

Table on my much more modest secondary rig, RP-1 w/Ortofon 2M Blue. Pretty sweet table for the price


----------



## Podster

CJG888 said:


> I’m also very happy with the 440MLb on my Garrard...



Yeah I could have bought 3 of those AT's for what this one Dynavector cost I guess it's true money can't by love er I mean great sound LOL


----------



## kid vic

Podster said:


> Yeah I could have bought 3 of those AT's for what this one Dynavector cost I guess it's true money can't by love er I mean great sound LOL



I admittedly havent tried many carts but it doesnt seem that improvements are consistent between brands and price ranges. Meaning if you love a midrange Grado cart you might hate a higher end Ortofon cart; seems like lots of people would rather have an entry level of certain brands over other TOTL carts. That doesn't seem to be as prevalent in other aspects of hi-fi


----------



## Podster

Yeah, I'm now a firm believer that it's more in the synergy between the phono pre, cartridge and table itself that gives the best outcome. Not to mention as old and fumble fingered as I'm getting to accidentally destroy a $2/$3 grand + cartridge would give me cardiac arrest LOL

I actually preferred the 10X5 Dyna to my 20X as well


----------



## Packgrog

Podster said:


> Yeah, I'm now a firm believer that it's more in the synergy between the phono pre, cartridge and table itself that gives the best outcome. Not to mention as old and fumble fingered as I'm getting to accidentally destroy a $2/$3 grand + cartridge would give me cardiac arrest LOL
> 
> I actually preferred the 10X5 Dyna to my 20X as well


Did you have your 10x5 retipped? The person that bought my old 10x5 after I bent the cantilever had it rebuilt with a line contact stylus and boron cantilever (http://www.phonocartridgeretipping.com/) and was very happy with the results. I've long been curious what a rebodied Denon DL-103 with a better stylus and cantilever would sound like, but I'm happy enough with my stock Audio Technica AT33PTG/II for ultimately less money and a more guaranteed compliance match with my arm. Any of those carts with an elliptical (or more primitive) stylus profile and aluminum cantilever are pretty much guaranteed to have big improvements from a rebuild, which definitely has a certain appeal.

I did like the sound of the stock 10x5, though I'm not sure I ever loaded it properly. 2000 Ohms seemed kind of flabby, 1000 kind of bland. Never tried it at MM loading.


----------



## Podster (Nov 14, 2018)

You know I've never even considered re-tipping in 47 years of tables! I usually just buy a new cartridge With my current setup Viktor's P5 would require a nice step up to do any justice to a MC and of course it seems like a lot of layout when I really like the sound from my ML/MM! Raising two teenage boys I just don't get the time with my rigs to justify any expenditure of that magnitude right now If I had a good step up I'd probably try the DL-103R for sure

I will say I've come a long way in tables since my second table hereEven my old Debut trounced my old TD-115!


----------



## CJG888

To get the best out of a DL-103, you will need a fairly high-mass (or damped) arm...


----------



## Podster

That’s what I’ve heard


----------



## luckybaer




----------



## Podster

luckybaer said:


>



It's not good to tease the animals I mean not one but two mystery [IMG['s!

Here's a couple I like



 






So here is a little diddy which some of you may enjoy knowing, my older brother retired from the library of congress a few years back (2006 is for sure a few years back, where does the time go)!!! Anyway when I went for a visit he talked to the archiving department and as a favor to him they let me come and see where they archive all the old vinyl they can get their hands on and it was awesome to see they were using an s9 to archive.


----------



## luckybaer

Podster said:


> It's not good to tease the animals I mean not one but two mystery [IMG['s!
> 
> Here's a couple I like
> 
> ...


Love 'em.  Not sure why I can't link to photos.  This site doesn't work the way others do for me (SHMF, AK).


----------



## Podster

It's actually gotten better out here, on my PC it's just upload file and browse to the one I want and the Simon Yorke I just copied image off the web page and pasted it Like these and I just love the way these look but not to sure about their performance stats


----------



## kid vic

Podster said:


> It's actually gotten better out here, on my PC it's just upload file and browse to the one I want and the Simon Yorke I just copied image off the web page and pasted it Like these and I just love the way these look but not to sure about their performance stats



If the second one is direct drive that could be cool


----------



## Skylab

Well, I have a new bit of Pioneer kit - I decided I wanted to go back to direct drive in my big rig - and so I have done so with a fully recapped and overhauled PL-50L MkII


----------



## bbophead

A Beauty piece for sure.


----------



## mrtim6

Your Pioneer screams quality Skylab - you can see the P3 DNA trickle down. I love the quality Japanese direct drive TT. They sound fantastic too.


----------



## Podster

Skylab said:


> Well, I have a new bit of Pioneer kit - I decided I wanted to go back to direct drive in my big rig - and so I have done so with a fully recapped and overhauled PL-50L MkII



Solid table Sky, I put it right up there with my old Denon DP47F DD
Doing a little rim drive today with a buddy Jelco SA-750L w/Denon DL-110


----------



## DJtheAudiophile

Sony - PS-LX5 Direct Drive Fully Automatic Stereo Turntable System


----------



## CJG888

Podster said:


> Solid table Sky, I put it right up there with my old Denon DP47F DD
> Doing a little rim drive today with a buddy Jelco SA-750L w/Denon DL-110



Are you using LM grease on the idler bearing? I find it reduces residual rumble significantly. BTW: which record weight are you using? Do you find it improves the sound?


----------



## Podster

Yes

https://www.amazon.com/Lubriplate-M...45157427&sr=8-9&keywords=multi+purpose+grease 

My weight is less weight and more spindle clamp, old Rek-O-Kut sorbothane puck with bubble level inset


----------



## Richsvt

I just got a new U-Turn Audio table (local mfg from Boston) and while not anything outrageous, sounding sweet from my vintage 80's Sony receiver.


----------



## bbophead

Richsvt said:


> I just got a new U-Turn Audio table (local mfg from Boston) and while not anything outrageous, sounding sweet from my vintage 80's Sony receiver.


Lovely to look at.  They seem to do many things right.  Thanks for the nice pic.


----------



## nutsfortubes

SOTA Star Sapphire vacuum with Zata arm VDH wire Blackbird HO MC cartage.


----------



## CJG888

Podster said:


> Yes
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Lubriplate-M...45157427&sr=8-9&keywords=multi+purpose+grease
> 
> My weight is less weight and more spindle clamp, old Rek-O-Kut sorbothane puck with bubble level inset




I’ve just switched to a Clearaudio (orig. Souther) “Clever Clamp”. It looks cheap and nasty, but works extremely well. It holds the LP perfectly flat whilst adding little mass of its own. Recommended for all Garrard users...


----------



## Podster

CJG888 said:


> I’ve just switched to a Clearaudio (orig. Souther) “Clever Clamp”. It looks cheap and nasty, but works extremely well. It holds the LP perfectly flat whilst adding little mass of its own. Recommended for all Garrard users...



Their actually very good and not too expensive, about the only kind of clamp I can use on my Well-Tempered Amadeus because the spindle post is so tall I can only use a pass through type like the clever. Another good part of the clever is it virtually puts no weight on the spindle and taking a chance of wearing down the bearing faster. On tyhe other hand if I were a girl table I'd absolutely love the Amadeus


----------



## CJG888

Why does the spindle need to be so long? Can you fit a second platter on top as a kind of über-mat?

I can’t imagine that it’s for an autochanger 

Apparently the Clever Clamp was designed by Souther to fit under their parallel-tracking arm, which is now distributed (or is it made?) by Clearaudio.


----------



## Podster

Well I'm clueless and really don't see any explanation of/for it from the WT Website, I do see they have changed the tone arm and how the Golf ball is mounted as my Amadeus has the same arm that is only on their Simplex MK2 now. I see nothing in the design philosophy as well unless the stainless steel spindle needed to be that long for the zero clearance aspect of the design

http://www.welltemperedlab.net/products/


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


> Solid table Sky, I put it right up there with my old Denon DP47F DD
> Doing a little rim drive today with a buddy Jelco SA-750L w/Denon DL-110



Looks a bit like Garrard we have at our HQ. Cool stuff.


----------



## Podster

iFi audio said:


> Looks a bit like Garrard we have at our HQ. Cool stuff.



Nice, this ones in a music room in Little Rock. As a matter a fact we had a little Infected Mushroom party on it this past weekend


----------



## richie60

Currently in the middle of my Lenco l75 restoration.  Just need a few bits for the tonearm and a new Phono stage and I should be set.


----------



## Podster

richie60 said:


> Currently in the middle of my Lenco l75 restoration.  Just need a few bits for the tonearm and a new Phono stage and I should be set.



Looking good Richie


----------



## richie60

Podster said:


> Looking good Richie



Thankyou.  It's been a while coming, can't wait to give it a listen.


----------



## Podster

I'm sure she will sound great, resto looks flawless


----------



## CJG888

I’d recommend a ProJect TubeBox of some description...


----------



## Podster (Oct 16, 2019)

Ooh, Golly Wally I had no idea you were asking for some phono pre suggestions but I'll throw a few at ya but I'm thinking you may have something in mind already

Have a friend who's had Ray's 117 Nighthawk on his Thoren's TD-124 for a few months and it's top notch, not sure if Ray still has them on sale from the Holidays but it was under $700

Tighter budget I'd consider:
 Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 SE around $400
or tubes
Vincent Audio (can't go wrong with German)! PHO-701 around $500 bones

Although IMO that table deserves a nice PP Good luck on whatever your decision @richie60  I run my Amadeus GTA through a BAT VK-P5


----------



## richie60

Podster said:


> Ooh, Golly Eally I had no idea you were asking for some phono pre suggestions but I'll throw a few at ya but I'm thinking you may have something in mind already
> 
> Have a friend who's had Ray's 117 Nighthawk on his Thoren's TD-124 for a few months and it's top notch, not sure if Ray still has them on sale from the Holidays but it was under $700
> 
> ...



Thanks, I have been considering building the Bottlehead Reduction to match the Crack, Graham Slee you mention is a contender too.


----------



## Podster

richie60 said:


> Thanks, I have been considering building the Bottlehead Reduction to match the Crack, Graham Slee you mention is a contender too.



Nice, bottle heads are sweet if done right. My all time favorite tube phono pre is the Hagerman Coronet 2, don't know if you can even find one anymore but can buy kits. Bout a grand for top notch parts Keep us posted when you get'er finished


----------



## Oregonian

Here's my son in law's Pioneer PL-41 that he inherited from his dad...............just had it serviced and gave him my Marantz 2285B.  Sounds like new............


----------



## Podster

Nice, see you took excellent care of the 2285B, I could still kick myself in the rear for selling my first receiver Poineer SX-1050 Circa ‘78! Glad you guys are keeping your kids in the hobby


----------



## CJG888

Any thoughts on cartridges yet?


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


> Nice, this ones in a music room in Little Rock. As a matter a fact we had a little Infected Mushroom party on it this past weekend



Another day, another Garrard, anothe pic that makes us happy! You sir know what's good!


----------



## CJG888

With the GL75 arm, you should probably look at a highish-compliance MM design. Either something like the AT440MLb (no surprise there), or a Goldring G1042. 

BTW- who made that plinth? It looks good!


----------



## CJG888

iFi audio said:


> Another day, another Garrard, anothe pic that makes us happy! You sir know what's good!


Once you try a 301, you’re hooked for life!


----------



## iFi audio

CJG888 said:


> Once you try a 301, you’re hooked for life!



Fully agreed, our Garrard has been at our HQ for years and ain't going anywhere!


----------



## Podster

iFi audio said:


> Another day, another Garrard, anothe pic that makes us happy! You sir know what's good!



Thank you and I'll relay your message to my friend for it's his table and I was fortunate enough to see it come from just a chassis to what you see today and it is a beautiful and beautiful sounding machine Here's a shot before it got that sweet British Racing green applied


----------



## darmanastartes




----------



## Oregonian

Podster said:


> Nice, see you took excellent care of the 2285B, I could still kick myself in the rear for selling my first receiver Poineer SX-1050 Circa ‘78! Glad you guys are keeping your kids in the hobby



I seem to be blessed with finding or having good deals fine me..............that Marantz 2285B was offered to me by the original owner (co-worker) who was moving cross country and "needed it gone" for $100.............had it serviced, LED lighting mod done and looks and plays like new.  Same deal with my flagship system - a full Pioneer Spec 1/Spec 2 rack system was offered to me for $270..........by a guy who knew a guy who knew I was into "old stereos".   I do have a lot of folks looking for anything silver faced that may be worth looking at and it's paid off a few times already.  

And yes, my other daughter got my Hitachi SR-304 receiver along with a pair of JBL 4311 speakers for her home gym - it too was in pristine shape and that system flat out rocks the garage.  It's one of those Class G amps that are rated at 50wpc but double in power as the need arises and definitely is one of the most under-appreciated brands/receivers that I own. Both systems also have a Harman Kardon Bluetooth receiver running off the Aux inputs that allows them to use their iPads/iPhones to feed them and I love that modern/retro combination myself.  

To keep this thread on turntable photos - here's my Pioneer PL-50S with the Spec system.


----------



## bbophead

Oregonian said:


> I seem to be blessed with finding or having good deals fine me..............that Marantz 2285B was offered to me by the original owner (co-worker) who was moving cross country and "needed it gone" for $100.............had it serviced, LED lighting mod done and looks and plays like new.  Same deal with my flagship system - a full Pioneer Spec 1/Spec 2 rack system was offered to me for $270..........by a guy who knew a guy who knew I was into "old stereos".   I do have a lot of folks looking for anything silver faced that may be worth looking at and it's paid off a few times already.
> 
> And yes, my other daughter got my Hitachi SR-304 receiver along with a pair of JBL 4311 speakers for her home gym - it too was in pristine shape and that system flat out rocks the garage.  It's one of those Class G amps that are rated at 50wpc but double in power as the need arises and definitely is one of the most under-appreciated brands/receivers that I own. Both systems also have a Harman Kardon Bluetooth receiver running off the Aux inputs that allows them to use their iPads/iPhones to feed them and I love that modern/retro combination myself.
> 
> To keep this thread on turntable photos - here's my Pioneer PL-50S with the Spec system.


Very tasty system.  Congrats, tho' not a big fan of coiled cords.


----------



## Oregonian

bbophead said:


> Very tasty system.  Congrats, tho' *not a big fan of coiled cords*.



Nor am I .................that is the vintage Pioneer headphone that was given to me when I bought my SX-1050 a few years ago.  Never have listened to them - keep them for some unknown reason.  Should sell them/gift them to someone but I like the vintage era and they were around when that rack system was new.


----------



## Lucky87 (Feb 8, 2019)

Old setup recently upgraded will re-post later but here was my Rega RP8/Dynavector 17D3 with a Groove Tracer Counter Weight..


----------



## kid vic

Lucky87 said:


> Old setup recently upgraded will re-post later but here was my Rega RP8/Dynavector 17D3 with a Groove Tracer Counter Weight..



Yamaha, Rega and Dynaudio! Gorgeous!


----------



## richie60

CJG888 said:


> With the GL75 arm, you should probably look at a highish-compliance MM design. Either something like the AT440MLb (no surprise there), or a Goldring G1042.
> 
> BTW- who made that plinth? It looks good!



Made by myself.  Here's a link to the build thread...

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=30493.0

As far as carts go, I've got a Shure M95ED I could use or it's buying a new cart altogether.  Used to have a Goldring 1012GX mounted on an SME 3009 when I had a Garrard 301.  That was a nice combo.


----------



## Podster

Oregonian said:


> I seem to be blessed with finding or having good deals fine me..............that Marantz 2285B was offered to me by the original owner (co-worker) who was moving cross country and "needed it gone" for $100.............had it serviced, LED lighting mod done and looks and plays like new.  Same deal with my flagship system - a full Pioneer Spec 1/Spec 2 rack system was offered to me for $270..........by a guy who knew a guy who knew I was into "old stereos".   I do have a lot of folks looking for anything silver faced that may be worth looking at and it's paid off a few times already.
> 
> And yes, my other daughter got my Hitachi SR-304 receiver along with a pair of JBL 4311 speakers for her home gym - it too was in pristine shape and that system flat out rocks the garage.  It's one of those Class G amps that are rated at 50wpc but double in power as the need arises and definitely is one of the most under-appreciated brands/receivers that I own. Both systems also have a Harman Kardon Bluetooth receiver running off the Aux inputs that allows them to use their iPads/iPhones to feed them and I love that modern/retro combination myself.
> 
> To keep this thread on turntable photos - here's my Pioneer PL-50S with the Spec system.



Nice, I drooled for the Spec System and rack when I was stationed in Germany back then (still have the brochure on Pioneer gear that year! Audio Nerd Deluxe certified) and just ended up with my SX-1050 but put a pair of JBL L-36's and Larger Advents on it (sold both pairs when I returned stateside and bought myself a pair of JBL 4311B Control Monitors) . I too had the SG-9500 EQ in my setup along with an AIWA AD6550 Cassette, Teac A-4300SX and Thoren's TD-115. 



 


 


 

Ah, those were the days


----------



## Oregonian

Podster said:


> Nice, I drooled for the Spec System and rack when I was stationed in Germany back then (still have the brochure on Pioneer gear that year! Audio Nerd Deluxe certified) and just ended up with my SX-1050 but put a pair of JBL L-36's and Larger Advents on it (sold both pairs when I returned stateside and bought myself a pair of JBL 4311B Control Monitors) . I too had the SG-9500 EQ in my setup along with an AIWA AD6550 Cassette, Teac A-4300SX and Thoren's TD-115.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First - thank you for your service.  
Still have the SX-1050?  I sold mine a year or so ago when I realized I didn't have the room for it anymore.  
I changed the SG-9500 out for a SG-9800 last year - mostly for the lighting and had a buddy that wanted to buy my SG-9500 to go with his SX-950.  
Those brochures are truly audio porn - man I love that picture on the front with all the Pioneer stuff captured!


----------



## Podster

Oregonian said:


> First - thank you for your service.
> Still have the SX-1050?  I sold mine a year or so ago when I realized I didn't have the room for it anymore.
> I changed the SG-9500 out for a SG-9800 last year - mostly for the lighting and had a buddy that wanted to buy my SG-9500 to go with his SX-950.
> Those brochures are truly audio porn - man I love that picture on the front with all the Pioneer stuff captured!



Thank you, I actually just applied for my VA Benefits last week. Figured at 62 it was about time! Sold my SX-1050 not long after I returned to the states in favor of NAD separates, actually sold all my gear from Germany (thought I'd try that "Movin' on up to the East side" gig) to get the NAD, Denon DP47F DD table and 920U CD and Nakamichi RX-303 cassette.

Here's the old (I guess young me) with my first rig, actually started with B(L)ose 301's but the SX-1050 blew them up in short order as I tried to get more out of them than they could handle 



 

Since I always get comments I'll go ahead and apologize for my Landlords wallpaper


----------



## bbophead

Lucky87 said:


> Old setup recently upgraded will re-post later but here was my Rega RP8/Dynavector 17D3 with a Groove Tracer Counter Weight..


I AM a Groovetracer fan man!


----------



## CJG888

richie60 said:


> Made by myself.  Here's a link to the build thread...
> 
> https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=30493.0
> 
> As far as carts go, I've got a Shure M95ED I could use or it's buying a new cart altogether.  Used to have a Goldring 1012GX mounted on an SME 3009 when I had a Garrard 301.  That was a nice combo.



Well done on the plinth. Very impressive!

I used to use a 1012GX on my SME 3009, and enjoyed the result (could have done with a little more transparency in the midrange, though). You really need something better than an M95ED! I had one of those too, and a V15 Mk IV (great bass and slam, no soundstage or imaging).

I’d go for an Audio-Technica (I did). The 440MLb has now been discontinued, and you may be able to pick up a bargain!


----------



## Podster

CJG888 said:


> Well done on the plinth. Very impressive!
> 
> I used to use a 1012GX on my SME 3009, and enjoyed the result (could have done with a little more transparency in the midrange, though). You really need something better than an M95ED! I had one of those too, and a V15 Mk IV (great bass and slam, no soundstage or imaging).
> 
> I’d go for an Audio-Technica (I did). The 440MLb has now been discontinued, and you may be able to pick up a bargain!



I concur on the Audio Technica as well running the 740ML on my Well-Tempered right now and I just love it even better than the 2M Blue, Sound Smith SMMC3 and even my Dynavector 20XL! Not seeing the $350 740 at ND anymore but they have the 540 https://www.needledoctor.com/Audio-Technica-VM540ML-Phono-Cartridge.

Love the build shots @richie60 , here's the 301's plinth before cleaning up.


----------



## CJG888

... and here’s how my 301 looked:





Before turning into this (still with the V15 IV here):


----------



## Podster

CJG888 said:


> ... and here’s how my 301 looked:
> 
> 
> 
> Before turning into this (still with the V15 IV here):



Man I love the finish that's on your 301 (can't tell my buddy I prefer it to his off-white though) 

@richie60 , Music Direct still has my 740 and I highly recommend it for $350. As I mentioned the Micro Line stylus really digs into the groove and since it's virtually the same type tip as the cutter I find it to really pull all the music out and accurately reproduce it just like it was cut in

https://www.musicdirect.com/phono-cartridges/Audio-Technica-VM740ML-Dual-MM-Phono-Cartridge


----------



## CJG888

Looks like a 440MLb with the added benefit of a metal body


----------



## Podster

CJG888 said:


> Looks like a 440MLb with the added benefit of a metal body



Yeah not sure how much the 440 runs but IMHO the 740 is a flat out steal for $350 It tracks like a seasoned Blood Hound


----------



## Skylab




----------



## iFi audio

CJG888 said:


> ... and here’s how my 301 looked:
> 
> 
> 
> Before turning into this (still with the V15 IV here):




 

Ulala. SICK.


----------



## Roboturner913




----------



## bbophead

Roboturner913 said:


>


----------



## bbophead

Roboturner913 said:


>


----------



## bbophead

Nice looking table and a great price.  Did you investigate the U-Turn TT?  I know it doesn't have an auto stop.


----------



## iFi audio

bbophead said:


> Nice looking table and a great price



Agreed!


----------



## Roboturner913

I bought a U-turn as well so I could compare the two. I've decided the Monolith is better for everyday use, not only because of the auto-stop but also because the removable headshell design makes it much faster and easier to swap cartridges. Plus I don't have to take the belt off to change speeds.

I like the U-turn though. I have nothing bad to say about it. The Monolith with its convenience features just fits my life a little better right now.


----------



## bbophead

Smart fella'.  You did it the right way.  Congrats!


----------



## iFi audio

Roboturner913 said:


> I like the U-turn though



Nice TTs, easy to use.


----------



## Roboturner913

Yes, very easy to use and incredible customer service. Everything was perfectly set and ready to go right out of the box. Cart aligned, counterweight was perfect, they even installed the arm lifter even though I had ordered it separately.

If I wasn't a habitual cart swapper I'd probably have kept it. I'll probably give it to my mother-in-law when I'm done playing with it. I'm just not ready yet, it's too cool.


----------



## Podster

So I got frustrated with the Q-Up too many times so I've stepped up to the "Little Fwend" and what a precision instrument, well worth the investment and at my age if it's past 8PM I can dose off after drinking a couple espresso's


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


> it's past 8PM I can dose off after drinking a couple espresso's



Age, eh?


----------



## Skylab




----------



## Podster (Mar 24, 2019)

Very nice @Skylab , that Pioneer reminds me of my old Denon DP47F
Another one I’d wish I’d never let go of
Probably be a couple weeks before I get this new baby setup, have the SS Shim coming so I can use all the non Rega carts I own! Sorry about the poor pic, I promise once the RP8 Is set up it will be better


----------



## nutsfortubes




----------



## Podster (Mar 24, 2019)

Yeah baby, that Constance is a gorgeous table nutz how do you like the Sumiko?

Bought the RP8 as an upgrade to my RP1 in my secondary rig!


----------



## nutsfortubes

Blackbird is one of the best under $2k MC out there. Been using ir for six years will be retired soon.


----------



## doctorcilantro

Got the PTP Audio solid 9 running again, using the Phoenix speed controller, vinyl is a pita but worth it.


----------



## iFi audio

doctorcilantro said:


> vinyl is a pita but worth it.



It ain't that bad, the ceremony around vinyl is a pleasure to us!

Nice PAP OBs! Trio15s with horn drivers, aren't they?


----------



## doctorcilantro

iFi audio said:


> It ain't that bad, the ceremony around vinyl is a pleasure to us!
> 
> Nice PAP OBs! Trio15s with horn drivers, aren't they?



PITA is a good thing, was using the Mint protractor the other day and I know I need to do more back breaking set up to finalize alignment, it will indeed be worth it.

The Trio15 with horns are working very well, but I may swap in the Heil drivers soon to try.


----------



## iFi audio

doctorcilantro said:


> The Trio15 with horns are working very well, but I may swap in the Heil drivers soon to try.



Have you considered going Voxativ?


----------



## Mojo777




----------



## bbophead

Mojo777 said:


>





Mojo777 said:


>


I see a turntable.  Looks like some kind of VPI (I don't know their stuff very well).  Could you tell us the model number, tonearm and cartridge?  TIA.


----------



## Mojo777 (Apr 2, 2019)

bbophead said:


> I see a turntable.  Looks like some kind of VPI (I don't know their stuff very well).  Could you tell us the model number, tonearm and cartridge?  TIA.



Sure.

VPI Classic
Soundsmith Zephyr MKIII
Behind the cabinet door sits the Sutherland Insight phono preamp
I run that into Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ ( testing the RME right now )


----------



## Byronb

Mojo777 said:


> Sure.
> 
> VPI Classic
> Soundsmith Zephyr MKIII
> ...


Any thoughts on the RME?


----------



## Mojo777

Byronb said:


> Any thoughts on the RME?



Excellent DAC. The hype on its performance is warranted. Even if I end up putting the Brooklyn back into the main system I’ll keep the rme. I think I like the non fatiguing sound of AK chip DACs a tad more than ESS based ones.


----------



## Byronb

Mojo777 said:


> Excellent DAC. The hype on its performance is warranted. Even if I end up putting the Brooklyn back into the main system I’ll keep the rme. I think I like the non fatiguing sound of AK chip DACs a tad more than ESS based ones.


Excellent, thank you. I am on the fence with my next DAC, and I am struggling settling on which to get.


----------



## iFi audio

Mojo777 said:


>



Those ATCs are feisty, aren't they?


----------



## rdale

Here is my Gyrodek/SME V/Ortofon 2M Black. I've had the deck since 1983 and have upgraded various bits over the years such as adding an Orbe platter. Phono preamp is a Pure Sound P10.


----------



## bbophead

rdale said:


> Here is my Gyrodek/SME V/Ortofon 2M Black. I've had the deck since 1983 and have upgraded various bits over the years such as adding an Orbe platter. Phono preamp is a Pure Sound P10.


Beautiful deck.  I'm a 2M Black fan myself.


----------



## doctorcilantro

iFi audio said:


> Have you considered going Voxativ?



Maybe, PAP allows me to plan out down the road though, if I have a 2nd system I will ask to buy the 15s and baffles only.


----------



## iFi audio

doctorcilantro said:


> Maybe, PAP allows me to plan out down the road though, if I have a 2nd system I will ask to buy the 15s and baffles only.



Voxativ singing from midrange and up seems like a solid plan. These drivers truly can sound spectacular with real instruments and voices.


----------



## TLAV111

My SOTA Satellite with the S330 tonearm and a Soundsmith Otello cartridge.


----------



## iFi audio

TLAV111 said:


> My SOTA Satellite with the S330 tonearm and a Soundsmith Otello cartridge.



A true passionate's rack. Congrats!


----------



## JTori

Here's mine.  VPI Aries with JMW Memorial tonearm and Benz Micro Glider cartridge being fed into an Audio Research PH3.


----------



## iFi audio

JTori said:


> Here's mine.  VPI Aries with JMW Memorial tonearm and Benz Micro Glider cartridge being fed into an Audio Research PH3.



Lovely shot of that tonearm!


----------



## kid vic

Haven't posted a picture in awhile


----------



## iFi audio

kid vic said:


> Haven't posted a picture in awhile



What's that deck of yours?


----------



## kid vic

iFi audio said:


> What's that deck of yours?



Oracle Delphi mkII


----------



## iFi audio

kid vic said:


> Oracle Delphi mkII



It's lovely!


----------



## Skylab




----------



## Gibson59

Mojo777 said:


>



What isolation block are you running under your VPI Classic?  I have a VPI Classic Signature that sorely needs one.


----------



## Podster (May 7, 2019)

Well I finally got the RP8 (Hana E) up and running in secondary rig, sounds very sweet but IMHO it does not hold a candle to my Amadeus even with the Hana To be fair it's not on the same level gear either so I may switch it out with the Amadeus and see what I think. A lot to be said for equipment up/down stream as well as plain old synergy If your wondering that is an Acetal Platter from Fidelity Designs ltd. (UK), basically the same material elements as the Delrin which I always wanted for this Rega. Since the Acetal was cheaper I thought I'd give it a go. 






With full Plinth


----------



## Gibson59

My VPI Classic Signature in the piano black color with an Ortofon 2m Black cartridge. I also sprung for the periphery ring which works wonders. I purchased it all about 5 months now and couldn’t be happier. Until I hit the Lotto this is as much turntable as I’ll ever need. I might upgrade the cartridge to a MC at some point though.


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


>



What are thoes feet you have under your deck?


----------



## Redcarmoose (May 7, 2019)

iFi audio said:


> What are thoes feet you have under your deck?




Those are the VPI upgrade feet, I think?


----------



## Podster

3” x 3” Isoblocks, you can get them from the supply store. I’ll post a link for you tomorrow as I’m tied up right now!


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


> 3” x 3” Isoblocks, you can get them from the supply store. I’ll post a link for you tomorrow as I’m tied up right now!



Found it, thanks!


----------



## Podster

Great, @Redcarmoose is also correct however I’m not sure those Rega feet work on the RP8 so I’ll investigate. You can’t beat the Supply House prices on the  Isoblocks


----------



## e-dub

Half of them, anyway.


----------



## kid vic

Gibson59 said:


> My VPI Classic Signature in the piano black color with an Ortofon 2m Black cartridge. I also sprung for the periphery ring which works wonders. I purchased it all about 5 months now and couldn’t be happier. Until I hit the Lotto this is as much turntable as I’ll ever need. I might upgrade the cartridge to a MC at some point though.



I've always lusted after VPI's, also, its nice to see someone else with a leather platter mat!


----------



## Gibson59

kid vic said:


> I've always lusted after VPI's, also, its nice to see someone else with a leather platter mat!



I had wanted a VPI for years and finally went for it.  I love the leather mat, I think it looks really classy. @kid vic what turntable do you have?  Sorry If i missed it earlier in the thread.


----------



## kid vic

Gibson59 said:


> I had wanted a VPI for years and finally went for it.  I love the leather mat, I think it looks really classy. @kid vic what turntable do you have?  Sorry If i missed it earlier in the thread.



An Oracle Delphi

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/post-a-photograph-of-your-turntable.549616/page-323#post-14894766


----------



## Gibson59

kid vic said:


> An Oracle Delphi
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/post-a-photograph-of-your-turntable.549616/page-323#post-14894766



Oh wow. Looks very cool but I’m not familiar with it. I’ll have to do some research and learn more.


----------



## kid vic

Gibson59 said:


> Oh wow. Looks very cool but I’m not familiar with it. I’ll have to do some research and learn more.



Their a small Canadian company thats pretty old but well respected, sounds great too!! Aftermarket arm and a Denon cart rounds out my setup


----------



## Dawgfish




----------



## Dawgfish




----------



## Dawgfish




----------



## Dawgfish




----------



## Dawgfish




----------



## Dawgfish




----------



## Dawgfish




----------



## nutsfortubes




----------



## kid vic

@Dawgfish Do you only have one playing position for all of your tables? Ever consider wall mounting one or two?


----------



## Dawgfish (May 8, 2019)

Right now I have two setups. I currently have the Sota Saphire setup on the main rig and the Sonagraphe SG3 set up on a desk top with a vintage Marantz 2220B receiver.  I listen to the Sonagraphe/Marantz setup when I want to listen to vinyl on the headphones.  It's running an Ortofon 2M Black cart, which admittedly I never much cared for on my other decks, but it's a good match with the Sonagraphe and Marantz.

I rotate the other decks out in my main setup just to change things up about every couple of months.  I have a lot of cartridges premounted on headshells so they can be easily swapped out again to act as a change of pace.  I would love to have more than one setup at one time in the main rig, but I just don't have the room currently.  Hope to change that soon!


----------



## iFi audio

Dawgfish said:


>



Very cool Tool LP.


----------



## Dawgfish (May 12, 2019)

iFi audio said:


> Very cool Tool LP.


Thank you!  A very good album indeed!


----------



## iFi audio

Dawgfish said:


> Thank you!  I very good album indeed!



Tool doesn't dissapoint. Music they make is timeless to us.


----------



## Dawgfish

iFi audio said:


> Tool doesn't dissapoint. Music they make is timeless to us.


Agree 1000%!  Can't wait to hear the new album in its entirety.


----------



## Skylab




----------



## iFi audio

Skylab said:


>



Denon's cartridge?


----------



## Audio Addict

Skylab said:


>



New turntable it looks.  I recall a denon and a vpi but that one looks new with the white and the "S" tonearm.


----------



## Skylab

iFi audio said:


> Denon's cartridge?





Audio Addict said:


> New turntable it looks.  I recall a denon and a vpi but that one looks new with the white and the "S" tonearm.



Yes the TT is fairly new - to me that is -  it’s a Pioneer PL-50 II direct-drive - was a Japan only model. The cartridge is the same Benz Micro LP-S MR. Only the head shell is a Denon


----------



## iFi audio

Skylab said:


> Yes the TT is fairly new - to me that is - it’s a Pioneer PL-50 II direct-drive - was a Japan only model. The cartridge is the same Benz Micro LP-S MR. Only the head shell is a Denon



Ah, sneaky you 

Good work though, lovely deck.


----------



## Podster

So I see Music Direct must have knocked off another Rega truck as they and several other dealers said the RP8 could not be found anymore and low and behold they have RP8's back in inventory at the $1995.00 sticker

Loving mine 4 sure Had to get creative with leveling shims LOL


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


> Had to get creative with leveling shims LOL



These match that bottle in the background rather nicely


----------



## grokit (Oct 16, 2019)

Podster said:


> So I see Music Direct must have knocked off another Rega truck as they and several other dealers said the RP8 could not be found anymore and low and behold they have RP8's back in inventory at the $1995.00 sticker
> 
> Loving mine 4 sure Had to get creative with leveling shims LOL


Are there two completely different RP8's?
The one I see at music direct looks just like this one from upscale audio:
_edit:_ I can see it both ways in certain reviews, is the larger/outer plinth optional or ...?
_edit2 :_ _"...The RP8 _[also]_ comes with a traditional plinth and dust cover that will protect it from the environment..."_


----------



## Podster

Mine looks just like this one with the outer plinth removed and I never used the layered glass platter because I ordered my white one from a UK company who specializes in platters. I wanted a Acroplat (sp) platter but they stopped making one for the RP8, this one is like a white  Delrin platter. Make sure you are not looking at the new Planar 8, I’m pretty sure there are not two different RP8’s.


----------



## grokit (Oct 16, 2019)

Podster said:


> Mine looks just like this one with the outer plinth removed and I never used the layered glass platter because I ordered my white one from a UK company who specializes in platters. I wanted a Acroplat (sp) platter but they stopped making one for the RP8, this one is like a white  Delrin platter. Make sure you are not looking at the new Planar 8, I’m pretty sure there are not two different RP8’s.


It's interesting. I edited my post with a quote from a tone audio review that has a picture of both versions. A little more on the 'skeletal' plinth (seems like a trend; see sol) from that same review:
_... the RP8 is a pretty big jump forward for Rega. They have always championed a low mass plinth design as the path to analog greatness and the website hints that "this is the first of the skeletal plinth designs"... Personally, I love the skeletal plinth and as I have no children or furry creatures to threaten my analog world, I can bask in the RP8s high tech glory.  Those less fortunate, fear not.  The RP8 comes with a traditional plinth and dust cover that will protect it from the environment.  I could not discern any audible advantage or disadvantage to the extra hardware, but congratulate Rega for providing it.  
My audiophile buddies were polarized, they either thought the RP8 was really cool, or tried to explain to me how it couldn’t work. _​


----------



## Podster

Well I love it and think I’m going to go full skeleton again. I prefer the RP8 plinth more than the Planar 8. It’s for sure low mass compared to my 51lb Well-Tempered Amadeus but it’s solid.


----------



## iFi audio

grokit said:


>



That's a beaut! Who says turntables can't be lifestyle lookers?


----------



## Podster

iFi audio said:


> These match that bottle in the background rather nicely



Good eye, of all the shots I've taken of this table guess I never caught that before! The lighting does not make it as prevalent in this shot


----------



## MrPanda

Podster said:


> So I see Music Direct must have knocked off another Rega truck as they and several other dealers said the RP8 could not be found anymore and low and behold they have RP8's back in inventory at the $1995.00 sticker
> 
> Loving mine 4 sure Had to get creative with leveling shims LOL



Do those isolation feet help a lot?


----------



## Podster

MrPanda said:


> Do those isolation feet help a lot?



That's a good question Mr. Panda and it may all just be placebo effect but to me especially with analog you need to make every effort to eliminate airborne and structural vibration from path. I doubt I need everything I have under my suspended Well-Tempered Amadeus since the crazy thing is 51lbs but never the less I still built up more isolation at least I've tricked my own mind and now I can't have any more Trix LOL

I'm sure this falls under overkill or better yet some kind of mental disease


----------



## MrPanda

Podster said:


> That's a good question Mr. Panda and it may all just be placebo effect but to me especially with analog you need to make every effort to eliminate airborne and structural vibration from path. I doubt I need everything I have under my suspended Well-Tempered Amadeus since the crazy thing is 51lbs but never the less I still built up more isolation at least I've tricked my own mind and now I can't have any more Trix LOL
> 
> I'm sure this falls under overkill or better yet some kind of mental disease



LOL  when I moved, I lost one of the silicone feet for my Denon DP-60L -- I could never find a match - I've tried all kinds of things but nothing has seemed to work like the factory feet! I have the S arm, but lost the straight arm in moving also.   Wish I had that too!


----------



## Podster

MrPanda said:


> LOL  when I moved, I lost one of the silicone feet for my Denon DP-60L -- I could never find a match - I've tried all kinds of things but nothing has seemed to work like the factory feet! I have the S arm, but lost the straight arm in moving also.   Wish I had that too!



I'm probably too anal retentive to lose my stuff but assisted lose (stemming from SWMBO saying all my empty equipment boxes take up more than half our attic storage space) and has said one day she is tossing stuff True assisted lose Sorry to hear about your lose/issues with your 60L, I had a beautiful DP-47F back in the late 80's and still think it's one of the best looking table of that time


----------



## MrPanda

Podster said:


> I'm probably too anal retentive to lose my stuff but assisted lose (stemming from SWMBO saying all my empty equipment boxes take up more than half our attic storage space) and has said one day she is tossing stuff True assisted lose Sorry to hear about your lose/issues with your 60L, I had a beautiful DP-47F back in the late 80's and still think it's one of the best looking table of that time



The DP-60L has been going without fail for 40 years now!  The S arm is quite good with some of the Ortofon and Denon cartridges.   So I really just need a better vibration absorber....
The Denon is still a very fine sounding turntable!


----------



## Podster

MrPanda said:


> The DP-60L has been going without fail for 40 years now!  The S arm is quite good with some of the Ortofon and Denon cartridges.   So I really just need a better vibration absorber....
> The Denon is still a very fine sounding turntable!



Yep and dare I say I loved my little Direct drive even more than the venerable Techniques 1200 who so many praise, statements like this out here is why I live in  LOL It's like I invite a nice flaming


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


> with analog you need to make every effort to eliminate airborne and structural vibration from path.



Yup. What you did doesn't quality as an overkill, not yet 

It probably does something nice to your deck and doesn't weight half a ton.


----------



## Skylab

MrPanda said:


> The DP-60L has been going without fail for 40 years now!  The S arm is quite good with some of the Ortofon and Denon cartridges.   So I really just need a better vibration absorber....
> The Denon is still a very fine sounding turntable!



All of the big DD Denons from that era - the 57, 59, 60, 62, and 72 - are terrific turntables that will absolutely slaughter many of the under $5K modern belt drive turntables, IMHO. I still LOVE and use my DP-59L all the time. I tried for several years to convince myself that the VPI ScoutMaster I bought was better.  It wasn’t. The VPI is gone. The Denon remains.


----------



## kid vic

Skylab said:


> All of the big DD Denons from that era - the 57, 59, 60, 62, and 72 - are terrific turntables that will absolutely slaughter many of the under $5K modern belt drive turntables, IMHO. I still LOVE and use my DP-59L all the time. I tried for several years to convince myself that the VPI ScoutMaster I bought was better.  It wasn’t. The VPI is gone. The Denon remains.



I think in terms of turntables and phono carts Denon might be one of the most criminally under-respected brands ever. Yes, the DL-103 and DL-110 are well loved but ALL of their other carts are excellent and their arms were no slouch either.


----------



## CJG888

At the end of the day, the DL103 was designed for Japanese broadcast use and came into service in 1963 or so. It’s still in production. That puts Denon up there with Ortofon and EMT, IMO!


----------



## CJG888

It’s also a bit cheaper than an SPU...


----------



## CJG888

I’m tempted to try mine on my SME3009 Improved (fixed headshell). I know it shouldn’t work (arm mass too low), but a number of respected audiophiles use this combination. Maybe a heavier cartridge body may help?


----------



## Skylab

The Denon DL-59L is back in the big rig, where it’s likely to stay for a very long time this time. A few attempts to unseat it have failed. The Benz is back in and it sounds amazing. I clearly have a long term love affair with the DP-59L


----------



## iFi audio

Skylab said:


> The Denon DL-59L is back in the big rig, where it’s likely to stay for a very long time this time. A few attempts to unseat it have failed. The Benz is back in and it sounds amazing. I clearly have a long term love affair with the DP-59L



Very cool deck. That Cary below as well.


----------



## Lucky87 (Nov 15, 2019)




----------



## nutsfortubes




----------



## basman

Still alive


----------



## bbophead

basman said:


> Still alive





basman said:


> Still alive


Very, very nice.  I have to ask, what is the purpose of the string hanging down on the right side of the pic?


----------



## Quinto

Lucky87 said:


>



Have you compared this headshell with standard one.. I ask cause I have the same TT and cartridge.. cheers


----------



## upstateguy

Eye candy turntables guys.  

I put my Technics direct drive turntable and my Nakamichi tape deck away years ago but I have a couple of pics...


----------



## bbophead

upstateguy said:


> Eye candy turntables guys.
> 
> I put my Technics direct drive turntable and my Nakamichi tape deck away years ago but I have a couple of pics...


I had that Stanton back in the day, good  cartridge.  My Nak BX-300 still lives, but ..........


----------



## iFi audio

Lucky87 said:


>



That's a lovely shot sir. Truly, something to print and put on a wall.


----------



## Lucky87 (Nov 15, 2019)

Quinto said:


> Have you compared this headshell with standard one.. I ask cause I have the same TT and cartridge.. cheers



Hi yeah and I find the stock one very quick and easy to use works with no problems but I tried the Yamamoto Sound HS-6 Titanium Headshell (pictured below) and it sounded awesome I added the Ortofon LW 800 S Silver Headshell Leads $130 to it and really brought down the noise floor. I recently tried to reuse the Ortofon wires and broke one off connecting it to the new Acoustical Systems Arché VTA Headshell so I bought a pair of DH Labs Silver Sonic Silver Headshell Leads $59.00 (need to widen hole with toothpick to install) and so far still breaking in my new stuff. But I did loose more forward midrange which is a plus and minus. But I would start with the stock Technics Headshell and try the DH Labs Silver leads.


----------



## Vaejoviscarolinanus

Dawgfish said:


>


I used to have a SOTA sapphire with the clamp and a ET arm back when I worked at Read Bros Stereo in the 90s. I loved that table . I had an Arrci Lead balloon stand for it. Now I have a Well Tempered and a Koetsu Rosewood signature cartridge.


----------



## Podster

Vaejoviscarolinanus said:


> I used to have a SOTA sapphire with the clamp and a ET arm back when I worked at Read Bros Stereo in the 90s. I loved that table . I had an Arrci Lead balloon stand for it. Now I have a Well Tempered and a Koetsu Rosewood signature cartridge.



Ooh, which Well-Tempered? LuvLuvLuv mine


----------



## Vaejoviscarolinanus




----------



## iFi audio

Vaejoviscarolinanus said:


>



What's your deck?


----------



## Vaejoviscarolinanus (Nov 18, 2019)

I can’t for the life of me remember the name of the model Well Temper. I remember that the cartridge is a koetsu signature rosewood.


----------



## iFi audio

Vaejoviscarolinanus said:


> koetsu signature rosewood.



Fancy and said to sound really good, congrats!


----------



## Vaejoviscarolinanus

I remember that I bought the Tice block at the same time and I was convinced that the Tice was the one that was going to be the game changer. I was wrong. That cartridge is so sweet that you can get diabetes listening to it.


----------



## Vaejoviscarolinanus




----------



## Podster

Vaejoviscarolinanus said:


>



Sweet Conny-J also that is the Well-Tempered Classic as seen in this used (White) one 

https://www.ebay.com/i/372825403888...MI0u_D3sX25QIVFBx9Ch37mQ-sEAQYASABEgIUa_D_BwE


----------



## Vaejoviscarolinanus

Podster said:


> Sweet Conny-J also that is the Well-Tempered Classic as seen in this used (White) one
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/i/372825403888...MI0u_D3sX25QIVFBx9Ch37mQ-sEAQYASABEgIUa_D_BwE





Thanks I was drawing a blank on the model.


----------



## Podster

Vaejoviscarolinanus said:


> Thanks I was drawing a blank on the model.



Yeah the Classic is the table that put Firebaugh up there with the big boys of the day (many will say it was his Tone Arm) as in this great interview by JG in the Phile https://www.stereophile.com/interviews/1087fire/index.html


----------



## iFi audio

Vaejoviscarolinanus said:


> That cartridge is so sweet that you can get diabetes listening to it.



This made our day


----------



## TLAV111

Thought I would get myself an early Christmas gift and pick up a Jelco TK-850S and composite arm board for my SOTA Satellite.


----------



## bbophead

TLAV111 said:


> Thought I would get myself an early Christmas gift and pick up a Jelco TK-850S and composite arm board for my SOTA Satellite.


----------



## bbophead

Real nice stuff you got there.  Congrats.


----------



## Podster

Is that Sound Smith’s Carmen cartridge, how do you like it? I ran the SMMC on my Amadeus for a year so and loved the moving iron


----------



## TLAV111

Podster said:


> Is that Sound Smith’s Carmen cartridge, how do you like it? I ran the SMMC on my Amadeus for a year so and loved the moving iron



That is Sound Smith’s Otello, the baby of the range.  I am loving the sound, there is something pretty special about the moving iron design even in their entry level cartridge.  In the future I would like to step up to either the Carmen or Zephyr.


----------



## iFi audio

TLAV111 said:


> Thought I would get myself an early Christmas gift and pick up a Jelco TK-850S and composite arm board for my SOTA Satellite.



A lovely deck, enjoy!


----------



## Strat1117




----------



## Podster

TLAV111 said:


> That is Sound Smith’s Otello, the baby of the range.  I am loving the sound, there is something pretty special about the moving iron design even in their entry level cartridge.  In the future I would like to step up to either the Carmen or Zephyr.



Yes, I find them to be great cartridges and reasonably priced. My current budget faves are the VMN40ML (Micro Line, just like the cutter and crazy good) as well as the Hana Green



 


 

Absolute gorgeous @Strat1117


----------



## iFi audio

Strat1117 said:


>



Ulala, SME 

Congrats!


----------



## Podster

Just realized that shot has the Mickey Mouse Q-Up which I replaced with the Fwend which is a far superior product of course for almost 5 times the price it should be right


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


> for almost 5 times the price it should be right



Yes, it should


----------



## Brava210

Hilarious.


----------



## Brava210

iFi audio said:


> This made our day



Hilarious.


----------



## iFi audio

Brava210 said:


> Hilarious.



C'mon, it was funny


----------



## Brava210

Not being a miserable git but being type 1 diabetic myself, eating sugar has nothing to do with contracting this nasty condition.
But i do understand the funny side or not so funny side


----------



## JTori

Brava210 said:


> Not being a miserable git but being type 1 diabetic myself, eating sugar has nothing to do with contracting this nasty condition.
> But i do understand the funny side or not so funny side



Like you, T1D.  I see it as you do.


----------



## iFi audio

Brava210 said:


> Not being a miserable git but being type 1 diabetic myself, eating sugar has nothing to do with contracting this nasty condition.
> But i do understand the funny side or not so funny side





JTori said:


> Like you, T1D. I see it as you do.



It's understandable that you don't see this matter in the same way as non-diabetic folks. The disorder itself of course is no laughing matter, the expression kinda was, but our goal wasn't to offend anyone


----------



## Brava210

iFi audio said:


> It's understandable that you don't see this matter in the same way as non-diabetic folks. The disorder itself of course is no laughing matter, the expression kinda was, but our goal wasn't to offend anyone


I know it wasn't, it's kind of the term itself "Diabetic" as it has two distinct variations. Type 1 which is an autoimmune disease meaning it happens for no apparent reason.
Type 2 which can indeed be self inflicted due to lifestyle etc but not always. So me personally I do not like being tagged as Diabetic, I prefer type 1.
Anyway back to turntable.........


----------



## iFi audio

Brava210 said:


> Anyway back to turntable.........



Sure!


----------



## CJG888

Just ordered a new idler wheel from Audiosilente. Hopefully this should fix the slight rumble.


----------



## malocadi (Dec 27, 2019)

My first black hole hobby (much tighter budget back then): vinyl. Pictured here is my AT-LP120 with a Nagaoka MP110, removed the internal phono preamp, connected to a Schiit Mani or Hagerman bugle2.


----------



## analogsurviver

Oh dear ... another one.

Are people going to EVER realize that throwing out the in close proximity to tonearm output wires mounted phono preamp and replacing it with adiitional LONG output cable of dubious quality and WHATEVER outboard phono preamp in case of MM  cartridges - and Audio Technica MMs in particular - is definitely a - DOWNGRADE ? 

MM carts do not like high capacitance in their load - period. The capacitance of internal wires in tonearms is approx 50 pF. The capacitance of external cable of the usual length ( 1 to 1.5 metres ) can be anything from addiional 70 pF ( best possible case,  RARELY achievable with presently available cables ) to over 400 pF with some "audiophile grade" cabling. BOTH additional ( and unnecessary) values would kill any AT MM cart - but that 400+ pF would kill ANY MM cart.

That additional cable capacitance when used with a MM cartridge produces FAR worse result than ANY decent phono preamp - even the most inexpensive one. Have a look at phono cartridge loading http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html  No phono preamp can restore the mess that additional capacitance introduces in the frequency response - even assuming it has zero input capacitance ( which in rality does not exist; lowest values are around 10 pF, achieved in some TOTL vintage gear and MAYBE modifiable in some current gear ).

The standard course to make - say - AT440MLwhatever palatable is usually bringing the capacitance around or below 100 pF ( VERY hard to do with any external cable) and using phono preamp input resistance lower than the standard 47kohms - around 33 kohms.  

AT LP120 - with its internal preamp - achieves even lower capacitance ( only internal tonearm wiring, approx 50 pF ) and most probably uses 33  kohms input resistance - giving AT MM carts MUCH BETTER CONDITIONS to work than with any outboard preamp.


----------



## CJG888

Didn’t Clearaudio once build a phono stage into an SME-mount headshell for this reason? I think it was in the 90s...


----------



## analogsurviver

Yes, it did. Today are even MUCH better designs ( at a price...) for MMs - but even that "half way" solution of preamp close to tonearm bearing ( which can cost almost "nothing" ) runs rings around any external cable feeding outboard preamp when MM cartridges are in question.


----------



## malocadi (Dec 28, 2019)

analogsurviver said:


> Oh dear ... another one.
> 
> Are people going to EVER realize that throwing out the in close proximity to tonearm output wires mounted phono preamp and replacing it with adiitional LONG output cable of dubious quality and WHATEVER outboard phono preamp in case of MM  cartridges - and Audio Technica MMs in particular - is definitely a - DOWNGRADE ?
> 
> ...


I get your arguments about why this might be a downgrade, but there was absolutely no doubt that there was an improvement to the sound (well beyond confirmation bias). I mulled on lobotomizing my turntable for a while and unfortunately never read about the effect of capacitive load on the cart.

I'd have to wonder though, this procedure bypasses a whole slew of circuitry which undoubtedly provides some impedance for the output signal even in preamp bypass mode, which is the whole argument for the procedure, so wouldn't bypassing all this be even less load for the cartridge even when replaced with some outbound cable?

This is new and interesting information to me and it surprises me that a frequently recommended procedure is actually a detriment to the system.

Sincerely,

Another one.

 P.S. fwiw the cable I used is only about 2 feet long.


----------



## analogsurviver

malocadi said:


> I get your arguments about why this might be a downgrade, but there was absolutely no doubt that there was an improvement to the sound (well beyond confirmation bias). I mulled on lobotomizing my turntable for a while and unfortunately never read about the effect of capacitive load on the cart.
> 
> I'd have to wonder though, this procedure bypasses a whole slew of circuitry which undoubtedly provides some impedance for the output signal even in preamp bypass mode, which is the whole argument for the procedure, so wouldn't bypassing all this be even less load for the cartridge even when replaced with some outbound cable?
> 
> ...



I am not familiar with the actual quality of the phono preamp within the LP-120. And I know that Schiit unit is no slouch.  I built some modified TC-750  phono preamps into few (vintage) TTs that have been using AT MM carts - and there was no way an outboard preamp - regardless how good otherwise - could have touched the low capacitance load offered by onboard preamp. If the preamp within LP-120 is really poor, then it may well be true what you have observed. But in principle, it has less chances than a snowflake in hell. Given the same level of circuitry, onboard should win - no contest here. Any extra cable adds unnecessary capacitance, no matter how short - and that is the detriment.

But the real deal for the MM carts is capactive load of less or equal to 10 pF (please refer to the Hagerman link again for details ). I am running it since 1993 - and never looked back. Many variants and versions of circuitry are possible - but it has to be stressed that only the best MMs qualify - and that manufacturers themselves are NOT aware which models in their range are suitable - or even perfect - for such application. There ARE models utterly unsuitable - anything requiring per manufacturer's spec capacitive load over about 300pF - and there were, unfortunately, few vintage carts that have been tailor made; none of which are no longer readily available and only show sporadically in usable or even NOS condition for sale.  

There are "in between" MM models that can take at least part , if not all advantage of truly low capacitance and extended bandwidth - bringing the level of SQ well above normally expected from MMs, rivalling all but the best LOMCs. Again, they are few and far in between - and , again, most are vintage and in ever dwindling supply. Please do not ask which - because it is hard getting them for personal use , let alone trumpeting about them on forums.


----------



## CJG888

I may try to put a decent DIY phono stage inside the plinth of my 301, attached directly to the SME connector, under the arm base. Should be an interesting comparison to the Tube Box DS with vintage Mullards...


----------



## CJG888

The Audiosilente idler wheel has been fitted, and is running in. It took about 5 mins to fit (using the original bushes, which are in good condition), after I removed a load of LM grease...

Lubrication is now by sewing machine oil.

Will listen to it tomorrow morning, once everything has bedded in. Funnily enough, although the new idler spins freely (and for a long time), the platter no longer runs fast. No idea why this should be. The ticking noise from the idler has also disappeared!

Hopefully the slight rumble has now been cured!


----------



## CJG888

It’s definitely quieter!


----------



## CJG888

I know this sounds crazy, but the soundstage seems much wider...


----------



## CJG888

Here is the new idler wheel:


----------



## Skylab




----------



## Lucky87




----------



## CJG888

Here it is now with the new AT-VM740ML and the Clearaudio / Souther clamp.


----------



## Podster

Lucky87 said:


>



Nice Lucky, love the see through platter shots however mine has never been out the box in favor of my 26mm Acetal platter


----------



## Podster

CJG888 said:


> Here it is now with the new AT-VM740ML and the Clearaudio / Souther clamp.



CJ you know I just love your 301 , one of the cleanest I've ever seen. You know I love that cartridge too I have more expensive carts but none sound as good on the Amadeus as the 740 Micro Line. I'm seriously tempted to try the Hana $1200 ML cartridge but would be mad if it did not kill the $329.00 VM740ML 



 

You know I get to listen to my buddy's 301 w/12" Jelco all the time, his custom 71lb plinth is pretty sweet with the cream chassis and British Racing green top


----------



## Strat1117




----------



## CJG888

New project on the way:

A few weeks ago, I realised just how many historic mono LPs reside in my collection (Decca LXT, Mercury Living Presence, Blue Note etc). After reading various articles on Lenco Heaven and Analog Forum (both popular here in Germany), I have decided to set up a dedicated mono front end. The basis will be my old 1987 or so vintage Elite Rock (fitted with Origin Live DC motor), Roksan Tabriz arm (vdH 501 cable) and an AT-MONO3/LP cartridge (currently on order). The AT-MONO3/LP is a genuine mono moving coil cartridge with only a horizontal coil (and a rather inconvenient 1.2mV output).

More to follow...


----------



## CJG888

Look what the postman brought today:


----------



## CJG888

So far, very disappointing. Dull, lacking in dynamics and flat. I need to turn the amp up to nearly full power to get any sense of scale.
I suspect this may be down to the cartridge’s “in between” output level of 1.2mV. I’ve been using the MM input of my “spare” Cambridge Audio 651P. Tomorrow I’ll try the MC input (although the cartridge ideally needs at least 400 ohms loading). We’ll see...


----------



## JTori

CJG888 said:


> Look what the postman brought today:


 
Nice!  Is that a Townshend?


----------



## CJG888

Yes, from about 1987 or thereabouts.


----------



## kid vic

CJG888 said:


> So far, very disappointing. Dull, lacking in dynamics and flat. I need to turn the amp up to nearly full power to get any sense of scale.
> I suspect this may be down to the cartridge’s “in between” output level of 1.2mV. I’ve been using the MM input of my “spare” Cambridge Audio 651P. Tomorrow I’ll try the MC input (although the cartridge ideally needs at least 400 ohms loading). We’ll see...




Interesting, it is supposed to be a high output MC. Hopefully it'll really wake up with a step up transformer.


----------



## CJG888

Yes, but for the extra cost of the SUT, I could have gone for the MONO33... (which is a proper low output MC).

I’ll try the MC input. If it’s better, I’ll look for a used Project Phono Box (which has variable gain) and sell the 651P...


----------



## CJG888

1.2mV is very low for a high output MC.


----------



## CJG888

Much better via the MC input. Now I just need to fix the hum (grounding issue).


----------



## CJG888

Turned out to be a ground loop (turntable motor controller and phono stage). Fixed now.


----------



## CJG888

Actually sounds rather nice now!


----------



## F700

View attachment IMG_20200302_001623.jpg

A modest but rock solid Pioneer PL-600X. With me since 1986... My wife's born 1987... It's all about relationships...


----------



## CJG888

Grossly under-appreciated at the time! We were all told (in the UK, anyway) to rush out and buy Dual 505s, but the average Japanese DD was much better...


----------



## Mojo777




----------



## Skylab




----------



## funkymartyn




----------



## bmichels (Mar 20, 2020)

*A "vintage" 1970's Thorens TD160, refurbished to new, fited with a SME II "improved" tornarm and a SHURE V15 III + JICO SAS....  *

(the Phono Preamp is a nice EAT E-Glo Petit... tubes based of course)

This turnable system is a very nice Analog source to complement my digital Aurender W20 music server/streamer.  And it sound very very good with my BHSE tube amp /Stax SR009s headphone.

















And I just got some audiophiles Vinyls to start with... and to compare to their digital versions already on my Aurender's HD.





I am now ready for my 15+ days lockup at home. . .


----------



## UntilThen

Rega RP8 with Apheta cartridge.


----------



## UntilThen




----------



## kid vic (Mar 21, 2020)

deleted


----------



## CJG888

bmichels said:


> *A "vintage" 1970's Thorens TD160, refurbished to new, fited with a SME II "improved" tornarm and a SHURE V15 III + JICO SAS....  *
> 
> (the Phono Preamp is a nice EAT E-Glo Petit... tubes based of course)
> 
> ...



Any modifications to the arm? I presume you are using the original knife-edge bearing...

Which arm cable are you using?


----------



## bmichels (Mar 22, 2020)

Yes the SME is stock. I just had the internal wire done new, and the cartridge wired changed for a nice* Audio Technica OCC Leads*

I think I will however have the SME "upgraded".  I contacted a german company that tweak the SME with new bearing and other stuff,* analogtubeaudio.de*, but they did not answered back ! .  

--> Do you know other company that tweek or upgrade the SME ? * I will be interested if you have infos or advices to how to improve me SME ... ?*


----------



## CJG888

I had mine serviced and recabled by Audio Origami in the UK. I’m still using the stock bearing, as I’ve read mixed reports regarding the bronze upgrade version (more PRaT, but also some harshness).


----------



## bmichels

CJG888 said:


> I had mine serviced and recabled by Audio Origami in the UK. I’m still using the stock bearing, as I’ve read mixed reports regarding the bronze upgrade version (more PRaT, but also some harshness).



thanks for the advice.  I will contac Audio Origami


----------



## kid vic

Here's my Oracle Delphi w/ DBL the Wand+ & Denon DL301


----------



## bmichels (Mar 28, 2020)

*By popular demand, rebuilt process of my TD160 / SME...*

 
 

 

 

   

 
 
 




*Et Voila ....   LaLaaaaaa......... !*





*And then add a very good Phono preamp ( EAT E-GLO Petit ), a new Stylus from Jico (the SAS model) and... some good vinyls !*

  

*And...  you are ready for the lock-down as long as needed... *


----------



## CJG888

Just out of interest: where did you get that Perspex cover? I could do with one for my 301...


----------



## bmichels

CJG888 said:


> Just out of interest: where did you get that Perspex cover? I could do with one for my 301...



from Arti Verhagen. He is in Germany.


----------



## CJG888

Thanks.


----------



## UntilThen

kid vic said:


> Here's my Oracle Delphi w/ DBL the Wand+ & Denon DL301



Nice !


----------



## bmichels

NOT my turnable, but so "special" !


----------



## CJG888

Was that once a Gates?


----------



## Sterling2

Here's my 45 year old Sony PS-4750 with Shure M97xE playing some Diana Krall.


----------



## bmichels




----------



## Skylab




----------



## PatekBruguetMogul

Anyone with one of these VPI Avenger Series Turntables and thoughts on it..? I am looking to buy my first ever turntable and want a really nice one ..


----------



## dosley01

PatekBruguetMogul said:


> Anyone with one of these VPI Avenger Series Turntables and thoughts on it..? I am looking to buy my first ever turntable and want a really nice one ..



VPI will be releasing a Direct Drive Avenger soon using the DD from the HW-40 (Not as pricey as the Vanquish) so if you aren't in a hurry you might want to wait.  If you don't want/need multiple arms, just grab a HW-40 now.


----------



## bmichels




----------



## CJG888

What’s the tracking force on that???


----------



## bmichels (Apr 18, 2020)

Sorry, it is *not* mine. I wish it was...    And this black SME3009 ! never saw such a beauty !  

Do someone know which model it is ?


----------



## kid vic

bmichels said:


> Sorry, it is *not* mine. I wish it was...    And this black SME3009 ! never saw such a beauty !
> 
> Do someone know which model it is ?


Thorens Prestige


----------



## bmichels

kid vic said:


> Thorens Prestige



thanks.  Now I need to find one and...break the bank


----------



## CJG888

Proper “Maschinenbau”!


----------



## bmichels




----------



## SteveM324

Two months ago I upgraded from a Rega RP10 to my new Rega Planar 10.  The cartridge is the Apheta 3.  The improvements were bigger than I expected.  The phono stage is my vacuum tube Luxman EQ-500.


----------



## bmichels

SteveM324 said:


> Two months ago I upgraded from a Rega RP10 to my new Rega Planar 10.  The cartridge is the Apheta 3.  The improvements were bigger than I expected.  The phono stage is my vacuum tube Luxman EQ-500.
> 
> very nice ! congrats.
> 
> Can you please tell us about the BUTCHER BLOCK plateforme.  How efficient is it ? did you compared with and without it ?


----------



## SteveM324

The Butcher Block Acoustics platform made a noticeable improvement in soundstage width and depth and image clarity.  I bought it last year for my Rega RP10 so my comments are in regards to that turntable not my new Planar 10.  I bought it on Amazon brand new at a insanely low price of about $60 including shipping.  It was shipped directly from BB Acoustic.  The packaging was insane, you would have thought there was a $30,000 turntable inside.  I think it was triple boxed. 😂  I can’t believe the quality and price of this platform.   I have no idea what it cost now or if it’s still available on Amazon.  I did see it advertised on the Cable Company website for a much higher cost.


----------



## SteveM324

I just checked and price and it’s still very reasonable.  Amazon has a 3 inch thick (mine is 1-3/4 inch) x 17 x 14 inch platform for $102.


----------



## bmichels

SteveM324 said:


> I just checked and price and it’s still very reasonable.  Amazon has a 3 inch thick (mine is 1-3/4 inch) x 17 x 14 inch platform for $102.



thanks for the info


----------



## kid vic (Apr 18, 2020)

SteveM324 said:


> The Butcher Block Acoustics platform made a noticeable improvement in soundstage width and depth and image clarity.  I bought it last year for my Rega RP10 so my comments are in regards to that turntable not my new Planar 10.  I bought it on Amazon brand new at a insanely low price of about $60 including shipping.  It was shipped directly from BB Acoustic.  The packaging was insane, you would have thought there was a $30,000 turntable inside.  I think it was triple boxed. 😂  I can’t believe the quality and price of this platform.   I have no idea what it cost now or if it’s still available on Amazon.  I did see it advertised on the Cable Company website for a much higher cost.


I got mine from an old job but I've seen them at Winners (part of the TJMaXX group) for really cheap too, you can sometimes get them on craigslist from hipsters


----------



## flibottf

Here's my Rega RP6 coupled with an AT-VM740ML!


----------



## Podster

flibottf said:


> Here's my Rega RP6 coupled with an AT-VM740ML!



Nice (That cartridge is so sweet I run it on my Well-Tempered Amadeus)  , I have a buddy who has basically turned his 40th Anniversary RP3 into a RP6 by adding the better belt, Groove Tracer Platter/Sub Platter. So how many shims did you need to raise the RB arm up for the 740?


----------



## CJG888

Nice cartridge 😀


----------



## flibottf

Podster said:


> Nice (That cartridge is so sweet I run it on my Well-Tempered Amadeus)  , I have a buddy who has basically turned his 40th Anniversary RP3 into a RP6 by adding the better belt, Groove Tracer Platter/Sub Platter. So how many shims did you need to raise the RB arm up for the 740?


I didn't use any, replaced the felt mat with a slimmer one, that did the trick.


----------



## holicst

Does it make sense to refurbish an old Lenco L75 from sound quality point of view? Or simply buy something new?


----------



## Podster

holicst said:


> Does it make sense to refurbish an old Lenco L75 from sound quality point of view? Or simply buy something new?



Man that is a tough one to answer, some swear by the Lenco idler drive and how much your into a vintage table. Like all audio pros and cons either side of the issue.


----------



## bbophead

Podster said:


> Nice (That cartridge is so sweet I run it on my Well-Tempered Amadeus)  , I have a buddy who has basically turned his 40th Anniversary RP3 into a RP6 by adding the better belt, Groove Tracer Platter/Sub Platter. So how many shims did you need to raise the RB arm up for the 740?


Good idea.  I did the same with my RP6 years ago.  Sure sounds sweet.  Added the GT counterweight and center weight as well.


----------



## Podster

bbophead said:


> Good idea.  I did the same with my RP6 years ago.  Sure sounds sweet.  Added the GT counterweight and center weight as well.



Nice, love the 2M Black as well  

@flibottf , I actually changed to the 26mm Acetal platter on my RP8 and had to shim up 1 to use my Hana on it


----------



## iFi audio

flibottf said:


> Here's my Rega RP6 coupled with an AT-VM740ML!



You could use a nice compact phonostage for it, ideally matte black to match the rest


----------



## Podster

iFi audio said:


> You could use a nice compact phonostage for it, ideally matte black to match the rest



Something tells me you may like the iFi Phono stage in black  It does get good marksI've really been enjoying this two piece myself


----------



## flibottf

iFi audio said:


> You could use a nice compact phonostage for it, ideally matte black to match the rest



I'm pretty content with the Fono MM mk3!


----------



## CJG888

holicst said:


> Does it make sense to refurbish an old Lenco L75 from sound quality point of view? Or simply buy something new?


I would say yes, definitely restore that L75! Have a look at this here for inspiration:

https://www.lencoheaven.net/

Properly refurbished (incl. new plinth, better arm), it will get you close to Garrard territory!


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


> Something tells me you may like the iFi Phono stage in black



I didn't want to say it out loud, so thanks   



flibottf said:


> I'm pretty content with the Fono MM mk3!



I would be too if I were you. But if you'll ever decide it's time to move elsewhere, we'll be around


----------



## Schnarpf

Latest project: Thorens TD124. Works but the SME needs to be adjusted. Winter is coming


----------



## iFi audio

Schnarpf said:


> Winter is coming



The best time of the year for us audio nuts. Not sure if it's only me, but I enjoy vinyl in winter more


----------



## FYFL (Aug 28, 2020)




----------



## Redcarmoose

FYFL said:


>


----------



## Podster

Redcarmoose said:


>



What? You never seen a record ring before


----------



## Podster (Aug 29, 2020)

FYFL said:


>



That baby is just awesome, you could put/combine all three of my tables and still not hold a candle to this sweetheart 













May b e when I retire


----------



## Podster

I've actually got the "El Carbone" in this setup for my youngest


----------



## FYFL (Aug 29, 2020)

Podster said:


> That baby is just awesome, you could put/combine all three of my tables and still not hold a candle to this sweetheart
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Three TT is a good number. Lol
DIY TT takes time and it’s not really cost effective. But it is fun and very rewarding when you put a record on after completion and it actually works.
I do have one question for you. Couldn’t help but notice one of your TT being suspended from the ceiling. How is it working out for you? I am thinking about using this approach with my super lightweight Rega.



Podster said:


> I've actually got the "El Carbone" in this setup for my youngest


That’s pretty cool. I’ve tried to pass this sentiment onto my daughter but no luck.


----------



## Podster

FYFL said:


> Three TT is a good number. Lol
> DIY TT takes time and it’s not really cost effective. But it is fun and very rewarding when you put a record on after completion and it actually works.
> I actually have a question for you. Couldn’t help but notice one of your TT being suspended from the ceiling. How is it working out for you? I am thinking about using this approach with my super lightweight Rega.
> 
> ...



Oh, my boys love music and have all the old classics I forced upon them growing up! You have to love when they go from Kid Cuddy to Bill Withers 

My suspended Amadeus is the bomb, the attic is my man cave and the floor is very unstable right where the big rigs rack sits. Of course the Amadeus weighs 51 pounds on it's own but on that Bright Star shelf on the E.V.A. Pads on the shelf I get zero vibration feedback but more importantly I can jump up and down like a crazed gorilla right in front of the rack and absolutely no skipping whatsoeverI don't know from that shot if you can tell the ceiling is gabled but it cost me like $54 in hardware at Home Depot. Here's a couple shots that may give you a better idea of my setup.


----------



## FYFL

Podster said:


> Oh, my boys love music and have all the old classics I forced upon them growing up! You have to love when they go from Kid Cuddy to Bill Withers
> 
> My suspended Amadeus is the bomb, the attic is my man cave and the floor is very unstable right where the big rigs rack sits. Of course the Amadeus weighs 51 pounds on it's own but on that Bright Star shelf on the E.V.A. Pads on the shelf I get zero vibration feedback but more importantly I can jump up and down like a crazed gorilla right in front of the rack and absolutely no skipping whatsoeverI don't know from that shot if you can tell the ceiling is gabled but it cost me like $54 in hardware at Home Depot. Here's a couple shots that may give you a better idea of my setup.


I see what you did there. 
Did you gave any thought what to use for suspension lines or just picked what you thought would work best? 
I have similar issue. Old wood frame house second floor. DIY TT is mass loaded (around 150lbs). Pretty good as far as vibrations are concerned. Platter is magnetically suspended/decoupled from main body and spindle. It literally floats. Lol
But Rega is big pain. Different topology and I need to figure out how to help that sucker sing. Wall is an option but ceiling suspension also crossed my mind.
Thanks for sharing. I think that I might go with your approach. 
👍


----------



## Podster

FYFL said:


> I see what you did there.
> Did you gave any thought what to use for suspension lines or just picked what you thought would work best?
> I have similar issue. Old wood frame house second floor. DIY TT is mass loaded (around 150lbs). Pretty good as far as vibrations are concerned. Platter is magnetically suspended/decoupled from main body and spindle. It literally floats. Lol
> But Rega is big pain. Different topology and I need to figure out how to help that sucker sing. Wall is an option but ceiling suspension also crossed my mind.
> ...



Well my primary concern was hardware to support my weight. The plastic covered cable I used will hold up to 130lbs. With your weight I’d sure be looking for studs, heavy duty eye hooks, 200 lb. (if we were fishin’ I’d say test line)! Then of course the right size clamps for the cable size. Another consideration was how long the cables would be, longer and even run cables would swing more so the pitch in my roof really helped the stability of the entire shelf. Good luck


----------



## FYFL

Podster said:


> Well my primary concern was hardware to support my weight. The plastic covered cable I used will hold up to 130lbs. With your weight I’d sure be looking for studs, heavy duty eye hooks, 200 lb. (if we were fishin’ I’d say test line)! Then of course the right size clamps for the cable size. Another consideration was how long the cables would be, longer and even run cables would swing more so the pitch in my roof really helped the stability of the entire shelf. Good luck



No, no, no. Sorry for confusion. I’m not trying to suspend that red DIY TT but a Rega planar 8. As far as the line choice. Well, I guess what I’m trying to figure out is, if I should go with elasticity or stiffness for best results?


----------



## Podster

FYFL said:


> No, no, no. Sorry for confusion. I’m not trying to suspend that red DIY TT but a Rega planar 8. As far as the line choice. Well, I guess what I’m trying to figure out is, if I should go with elasticity or stiffness for best results?



Oh, I was just making sure if you wanted to hang the monster you made sure your apparatus was sturdy enough for the job but glad to know it's the Rega. I'd still go with non-elastic, I think elastic or spring loaded supports would present other issues with leveling plus with the Rega's weight you probably need no more than I have.


----------



## iFi audio

FYFL said:


>



What is THAT gorgeous red thing if I may ask ?!?


----------



## FYFL

iFi audio said:


> What is THAT gorgeous red thing if I may ask ?!?


Of cause you may. It’s little red Frankenstein DIY TT. Very weird, very heavy, very red, but I’m not sure that it’s very good. Lol
But it gets most use from my 3 TT that I own. Not sure why?


----------



## FYFL

Podster said:


> Oh, I was just making sure if you wanted to hang the monster you made sure your apparatus was sturdy enough for the job but glad to know it's the Rega. I'd still go with non-elastic, I think elastic or spring loaded supports would present other issues with leveling plus with the Rega's weight you probably need no more than I have.


I think you’re right. I was just thinking about it and bouncy TT makes little sense to me. Non-elastic makes more sense. The thing with Rega TT is that they don’t like a lot of damping/vibration control or mass loaded isolation platform. At least the Planar series. IMO wall or ceiling (like your approach) is the way to go. Thanks for helping hand. I really appreciate it. 👍


----------



## Podster

Absolutely, my RP8 works flawlessly on that wall mounted shelf.


----------



## iFi audio

FYFL said:


> Of cause you may. It’s little red Frankenstein DIY TT. Very weird, very heavy, very red, but I’m not sure that it’s very good. Lol
> But it gets most use from my 3 TT that I own. Not sure why?



Thanks for this info. I can't say anything about its sound of course and I won't even dare to speculate, but it sure looks great!


----------



## FYFL (Sep 2, 2020)

iFi audio said:


> Thanks for this info. I can't say anything about its sound of course and I won't even dare to speculate, but it sure looks great!


Project started with scattered parts around my basement. German motor, Chinese plater/speed control box, British vintage SME tonearm. Plinth was originally made (MDF/Baltic ply sandwiched) for Lenco direct drive TT. Plans changed and all this crap was collecting dust. So, I decided to make something “cool” looking without any effort put in as far as performance is concerned. But it turned into a something else. I started sourcing our various brass, copper, aluminum parts. Magnets for platter suspension (yeah, it floats lol) and acrylic for tonearm boards. It took couple months to finish but I wasn’t really in a rush. It was interesting to play with different materials and see what it does. After completion, it took couple weeks to fine tune everything, make few adjustments here and there. And finally test it. It worked and it didn’t sound all that bad. Idea was to mass load plinth that holds both armboards. Float platter for minimal friction. And keep motor isolated on 25lbs solid brass base. Ironically, belt is made out of fishing line (went through a dozen of different kinds and makes before settling on the one that seemed appropriate). And I am ashamed to admit it but, I have even tried different dental floss........ including minty one as well. Lol
I use it more often than my Rega Planar 8 or Townshend Audio TT. That’s probably best complement that I can give it without sounding crazy. Lol
It was fun.


----------



## iFi audio

FYFL said:


> Project started with scattered parts around my basement. German motor, Chinese plater/speed control box, British vintage SME tonearm. Plinth was originally made (MDF/Baltic ply sandwiched) for Lenco direct drive TT. Plans changed and all this crap was collecting dust. So, I decided to make something “cool” looking without any effort put in as far as performance is concerned. But it turned into a something else. I started sourcing our various brass, copper, aluminum parts. Magnets for platter suspension (yeah, it floats lol) and acrylic for tonearm boards. It took couple months to finish but I wasn’t really in a rush. It was interesting to play with different materials and see what it does. After completion, it took couple weeks to fine tune everything, make few adjustments here and there. And finally test it. It worked and it didn’t sound all that bad. Idea was to mass load plinth that holds both armboards. Float platter for minimal friction. And keep motor isolated on 25lbs solid brass base. Ironically, belt is made out of fishing line (went through a dozen of different kinds and makes before settling on the one that seemed appropriate). And I am ashamed to admit it but, I have even tried different dental floss........ including minty one as well. Lol
> I use it more often than my Rega Planar 8 or Townshend Audio TT. That’s probably best complement that I can give it without sounding crazy. Lol
> It was fun.



Thanks for this explanation. Both from afar and up close it looks like something costly, boutique and a deck only a passionate could pull off. Very nice stuff with that red color scheme and two tonearms. At our old place we had an old heavily modded Garrard. Now it's gathering dust, but after seeing your piece I'm tempted to ask my boss and have ours fixed on a rack and singing again.


----------



## FYFL

iFi audio said:


> Thanks for this explanation. Both from afar and up close it looks like something costly, boutique and a deck only a passionate could pull off. Very nice stuff with that red color scheme and two tonearms. At our old place we had an old heavily modded Garrard. Now it's gathering dust, but after seeing your piece I'm tempted to ask my boss and have ours fixed on a rack and singing again.



That’s a great idea. Give it a new life. They’re awesome, reliable TT.
All you really need is a nice plinth with armboard. Even if you won’t use it all that much, it will become a conversation piece.
And that red TT wasn’t really expensive (spare parts from dealers). But time consuming since it took so many turns.
Cheers


----------



## Skylab




----------



## Podster

Skylab said:


>



Dang Sky, every
time I see you 59 I miss and kick my own booty for letting my DP-47F go Then I go and see you signature and feel the exact same way about my old Pioneer SX-1050 Lovely


----------



## iFi audio

Skylab said:


>



Opeth!


----------



## Podster

iFi audio said:


> Opeth!



Yep and I recently got the 2 LP set and even Sky's photo does not do it justice! No offense Sky  Opeth is my Prog Metal band for sure and if you like something to tickle your senses by all means get you a little Opeth 

So let me put  little taster on ya Everything sounds awesome in the RAH


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


> Yep and I recently got the 2 LP set and even Sky's photo does not do it justice! No offense Sky  Opeth is my Prog Metal band for sure and if you like something to tickle your senses by all means get you a little Opeth
> 
> So let me put  little taster on ya Everything sounds awesome in the RAH




Thanks! So probably Ayreon is known to you:


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Probably premature, but I'm going to post it anyway, here is a Thorens TD 125 MKII I am restoring, note quite done yet, but nearly there.



So far, I dismantled, cleaned, and polished the original TP16 tonearm, cleaned and polished the platter, cleaned and dusted the interior, had a replica dust cover made in clear acrylic (the original was smoked and very scratched).

I have some new dust cover hinges on the way (they are broken), NOS Thorens replacement headshell is coming as well.  The TP50 headshell the TT was sold with is not compatible with the tonearm.

I am rewiring the tonearm in Cardas litz 33AWG wire, the TT will be rewired for balanced operation with two 3-pin XLR outputs.  I am designing and building a tube phono stage simultaneously that the TT will be paired with, the stage takes balanced inputs on the step-up transformer primary, single-ended output on the transformer secondary.  This way, you get the noise-reduction benefits of balanced operation with a single-ended phono.  The cart will be a MC Hana EL.

Have pics of me taking everything apart on my DIY thread, but I'll leave it at that for now!  I'll post some final pics with the phono stage when they are both done, should be 2-3 weeks.


----------



## iFi audio

L0rdGwyn said:


> Probably premature, but I'm going to post it anyway, here is a Thorens TD 125 MKII I am restoring, note quite done yet, but nearly there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Looking good! Very nice work!


----------



## Podster

L0rdGwyn said:


> Probably premature, but I'm going to post it anyway, here is a Thorens TD 125 MKII I am restoring, note quite done yet, but nearly there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looking good and reminds me (Especially the toggles) of my first Thoren's (While a poor Airman in Germany)! The TD-115  





Had an old and even less expensive Technics  SL-23 was my first table I bought myself. Ah the good old days


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Sep 27, 2020)

@Podster thanks!  Nice looking setup 

Yesterday, I rewired the tonearm with Cardas 33AWG litz wire and rhodium clips, wired the turntable for balanced outputs, and polished up the platter.  Threw an Ortofon MM cart on there to set it up, but it will soon be replaced with a MC Hana EL.


----------



## Audio Addict (Oct 2, 2020)

Updated my phonostage to the Allnic H1202.





It is matched with my VPI table.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Oct 13, 2020)

Finished my phono stage today.

Power supply chassis interior.

 

Phono stage chassis interior, Lundahl LL9226XL MC step-up transformers, Miflex copper foil coupling and output caps.

  

Tubes are D3a and EF86, triode strapped and CCS loaded.  Is is a hybrid design with a FET source follower output buffer.

  

Sounding very nice with the TD 125 MkII and Hana EL


----------



## kid vic

@L0rdGwyn I am pretty jealous of your skills! Keep up the great work!!


----------



## Skylab




----------



## Strayngs

If anybody wants to upgrade their phono stage my Avid Pellar is listed cheap. I have since changed they cartridge to a Goldring 1042 from this pic.


----------



## UntilThen

Still using my Avid Pellar with my Rega RP8 with Apheta cartridge.


----------



## Strayngs

New turntable!


----------



## JazzVinyl

Here is one of a few tables I own:

Harman Kardon T-25 that I did all the "Van Alstine" mods to, many years ago.
It has been a very nice table and has served me well since the mid 1980's or so  


.


----------



## Podster

JazzVinyl said:


> Here is one of a few tables I own:
> 
> Harman Kardon T-25 that I did all the "Van Alstine" mods to, many years ago.
> It has been a very nice table and has served me well since the mid 1980's or so
> ...



The VA Mods really brought the T (VA)-25 to a whole new level  I'm still partial to the HK linear trackers but T25 was a solid table


----------



## iFi audio

Strayngs said:


> New turntable!



I LOVE your entire setup and that turntable really fits in there! If Imay ask, what is it?


----------



## Podster

iFi audio said:


> I LOVE your entire setup and that turntable really fits in there! If Imay ask, what is it?



Pretty sure its there in his signature " VPI Prime (gimbal tonearm) with Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC Star ES, Gold Note PH-10 and PSU-10"


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


> VPI Prime (gimbal tonearm)



Yes! It looks to be the one! Thanks!


----------



## Podster (Feb 11, 2021)

iFi audio said:


> Yes! It looks to be the one! Thanks!



You for sure are spot on it being a gorgeous setup


----------



## flibottf

A few updated takes of my Rega RP6 with Audio-Technica wn740ml




Johto Legends by Francois Flibotte, on Flickr




Timing on by Francois Flibotte, on Flickr




edge of ending by Francois Flibotte, on Flickr


----------



## Podster

flibottf said:


> A few updated takes of my Rega RP6 with Audio-Technica wn740ml
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That 740ML sounds better than cartridges I have costing 2/3 times more  How many spacers did you need to align it on the RP? I had to put a 2 & 3mm on my RP8 to get the Hana level! Love the red


----------



## CJG888

+1 on that cartridge!

Very happy with mine.


----------



## flibottf

Podster said:


> That 740ML sounds better than cartridges I have costing 2/3 times more  How many spacers did you need to align it on the RP? I had to put a 2 & 3mm on my RP8 to get the Hana level! Love the red


Only put a 2mm and a slimmer mat and it's perfect!


----------



## Podster

flibottf said:


> Only put a 2mm and a slimmer mat and it's perfect!



Cool, that's my only drawback with the Rega's is not having adjustable VTA without breakdown! I actually prefer the 740 on my Amadeus to the Dynavector 20X I put on when I first got it  Seriously considering the Hana Micro Line cart as my next upgrade and will probably move the 740 to my RP8 and Hana green to my PLX1000 however the Ortofon 2M Blue still sounds pretty good on the Pioneer Doing a little Micro Lining right here, please ignore my dust as it's a constant battle in my 100 year old home


----------



## iFi audio

flibottf said:


> A few updated takes of my Rega RP6 with Audio-Technica wn740ml
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks! I dig those shots and that red color a lot!


----------



## edward1900




----------



## FYFL

Install a cart and ready to sing.


----------



## edward1900




----------



## Schnarpf

Thorens is ready


----------



## analogsurviver

JazzVinyl said:


> Here is one of a few tables I own:
> 
> Harman Kardon T-25 that I did all the "Van Alstine" mods to, many years ago.
> It has been a very nice table and has served me well since the mid 1980's or so
> ...


Best bang for the buck. Nice selection of carts, too. DL-110 and AT VM35EL - or even VM35F?


----------



## CJG888

Schnarpf said:


> Thorens is ready


Very nice!


----------



## Quinto




----------



## Podster




----------



## bagwell359 (Nov 28, 2021)

This is not my exact table, but it's close - it's a Souther SLA-3 straight track tone arm using quartz rods - not air. No inner groove destruction like pivot arms, about 1/6 the wear per play.  The Table is VPI Mk IV which was my original table (later a TNT Jr).  It looks like a Dynavector cartridge.  I used Shelter 501's and Koetsu Rosewood Signatures.

This pic shows an attached dust cover which is wrong IMO.  It should also be detached, easily replaced when done.  If in room w/ stereo vibrations get fed into the table, even with little sorbathane feet trying to damp it.

That arm (and the company that bought Souther - Clearaudio) has the best treble and midrange purity and outstanding soundstaging of any I've heard.  The bass is accurate but doesn't have an ideal impact like the SME IV.

Get one if you can.  The myth that they are hard to work on is false - once you do it about 3 times through. It's a very analog process by the way.


----------



## FYFL (Nov 28, 2021)

Podster said:


>


That Marantz is a legend in my book. I hope that’s what I’m seeing?
Amazing value. Cartridge by itself is almost worth the admission price. My cousins bought one years ago and it still makes him smile.

Just noticed that you have dynavector replacement.cart on it.


----------



## penmarker

Some before and after shots of a turntable I restored few months back. 

It’s a Technics SL-150 that came stock with an SME 3009 S2 Improved arm with the SME FD-200 damper system and a Shure V15-III cart. Got a JICO stylus for the cart since the original cantilever was yeeted to orbit some 30-40 years ago. 

Sounds nice. I like it.


----------



## Podster

penmarker said:


> Some before and after shots of a turntable I restored few months back.
> 
> It’s a Technics SL-150 that came stock with an SME 3009 S2 Improved arm with the SME FD-200 damper system and a Shure V15-III cart. Got a JICO stylus for the cart since the original cantilever was yeeted to orbit some 30-40 years ago.
> 
> Sounds nice. I like it.


Nice, very clean work had a Virtuoso on it and my 20 year old bent the cantilever! The 10X5 was what I had available upon the CA’s demise still a sweet sounding pair


----------



## penmarker

Thanks a lot, I put a lot into it.
It's a shame the headshell isn't stock though. The prices are going through the roof so I'm not sure if I want to get it since the magnesium ADC headshell on it works quite well.

Which one do you like between the Virtuoso and the DV10x5?


----------



## Podster (Nov 29, 2021)

penmarker said:


> Thanks a lot, I put a lot into it.
> It's a shame the headshell isn't stock though. The prices are going through the roof so I'm not sure if I want to get it since the magnesium ADC headshell on it works quite well.
> 
> Which one do you like between the Virtuoso and the DV10x5?


The 10X5 is a really nice cart but does not have the crispness of the Virt, the Virt just sounds light with more air or maybe it’s delicate that I’m looking for. It truly was what made it a bargain especially when I got mine at $1499

Of course my new fave sub $500 cartridge (here in the Yaqin/Klipsch rig) is the Hana E MC which really makes my new dream cartridge the Hana Umami Red


----------



## bagwell359 (Dec 2, 2021)

OK, more from the olden days...

First TT: 1974 Dual 510 (no pic needed).  Started with cart: AT-13, then ADC-XLM, ADC-XLM Mk II, Sonus Blue, Shure V15 III.  Arm too heavy for XLM or Sonus.  Damped arm with paper clip and shampoo.

2nd TT: 1977 Ariston RD-11 S (Linn wannabe) w/ Mayware 4 (low mass arm).  Sonus, Stanton 881S (got it on my 21st birthday).

3rd TT:  1981 Oracle Delphi III w/ JVC UA-7045 (FR 64 rip off - but a great VTA adjustment) Cart: FR Mk3F
             1985 then install a FR-66.  FR Mk3F again, Madrigal Carneigie 1.

4th TT:  1992 VPI MK III and FR-66.  Lyra Parnassus, Shelter 501 (aka Crown Jewel)

5th TT:  2000 VPI TNT Jr and Lou Souther SLA-3 arm; Koetsu Rosewood, Koetsu Rosewood Signature

2016: Finis


Note: none of these pics was mine, just similar.

#1. RD-11S & Mayware IV
#2. JVC UA-7045 arm
#3. Oracle Delphi III
#4. FR-66


----------



## Somatic

Can someone help me on how I can connect the Susvara or TC to turntables?


----------



## UntilThen

Somatic said:


> Can someone help me on how I can connect the Susvara or TC to turntables?



Turntable > Amp > Susvara. That’s how it’s done.


----------



## Dawgfish

Somatic said:


> Can someone help me on how I can connect the Susvara or TC to turntables?


You're going to need a phono preamp unless your table has one built in.  Most do not so you would run your turntable into a phono preamp then into your amp (provided it has volume control).


----------



## Somatic

Dawgfish said:


> You're going to need a phono preamp unless your table has one built in.  Most do not so you would run your turntable into a phono preamp then into your amp (provided it has volume control).


Cool, so a phono preamp with volume control and a power amp?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07932QK4...ifi-us-1347492739285757400-20&geniuslink=true


----------



## Dawgfish

Somatic said:


> Cool, so a phono preamp with volume control and a power amp?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07932QK4...ifi-us-1347492739285757400-20&geniuslink=true


I was actually referring to your headphone amp having a volume control but the phono pre in the link provided will certainly do the job.  I'm not sure about the quality of the headphone jack on that though.

Please tell me more about your turntable and phono cartridge as well as the rest of your headphone chain (amp and headphones) so I can make a good recommendation and setup for what you have.


----------



## schmalgausen

Elac 50H


----------



## gianni60

I listen music since 1973,i was 13 years old,until now,only with turntable and i dont like cd and streaming music.
I have around 10/11 top cartridges now and 3 fantastic turntable after a long research and save money for turntable

I have an idler turntable built in italy,Torqueo T 34 Limited with Saec 506 and the new Kondo IO XP cartridge


----------



## gianni60

The second turntable is another Italian company Vyger with his top of the line Atlantis MK IV,with linear tracking arm on air made with carbon fiber and platter also suspended on air
Here i put a Kondo IOM cartridges
Has a separate big pump at high pressure and a digital box to shere and control the air from the pump to platter and arm


----------



## gianni60

And the third is Techdas AF3 premium with the platter suspended on air with the weight of 29 kg,only the platter,made in different alloy.
I have 3 tonearms
SAT with Lyra Atlas Lambda sl
Triplanar Ultimate SE with Air Tight Opus 1
Graham Elite 12" with VDH Grand Cru


----------



## Renno61A (May 1, 2022)

I hope this work a CJ Walker 55,linn Lvv tonearm and a Audio Technica at110e, nothing fancy but it's reliable .


----------



## CJG888

gianni60 said:


> I listen music since 1973,i was 13 years old,until now,only with turntable and i dont like cd and streaming music.
> I have around 10/11 top cartridges now and 3 fantastic turntable after a long research and save money for turntable
> 
> I have an idler turntable built in italy,Torqueo T 34 Limited with Saec 506 and the new Kondo IO XP cartridge


I always wondered what that one sounds like. It’s a new idler drive turntable, designed from the ground up, isn’t it?


----------



## gianni60

Torqueo is an italian company where before improved Garrard and rek o cut.
When they finished to find old rek o cut to rebuild like Schopper and Swissonor do for td 124,they started to build all components and produced a new turntable copying rec o cut but with all much better component.
I had also Swissonor td 124,very good but thi is another level in transparency and dynamic and rhythm


----------



## Somatic

Dawgfish said:


> I was actually referring to your headphone amp having a volume control but the phono pre in the link provided will certainly do the job.  I'm not sure about the quality of the headphone jack on that though.
> 
> Please tell me more about your turntable and phono cartridge as well as the rest of your headphone chain (amp and headphones) so I can make a good recommendation and setup for what you have.


I have a TT2. Haven’t bought the turntable yet. Might get a Dave. I’d like a better audiophile turntable as well. Any thoughts on setting this up?


----------



## Strayngs

Somatic said:


> I have a TT2. Haven’t bought the turntable yet. Might get a Dave. I’d like a better audiophile turntable as well. Any thoughts on setting this up?


What would your budget be? Remember you will need a phono preamp as well if you don't have one integrated into your equipment already.


----------



## Somatic

Strayngs said:


> What would your budget be? Remember you will need a phono preamp as well if you don't have one integrated into your equipment already.


Not sure. I’d like mid to high end. 5-8k?


----------



## Strayngs

Somatic said:


> Not sure. I’d like mid to high end. 5-8k?


I have a VPI Prime which I can highly recommend…but with price increases, cost of cartridge and a phono Preamp…you will at least be at the top of your budget.

If I were buying today…and I was not going to get a VPI, I would likely get a Avid or a Goldnote. Not your most popular brands but I am a huge fan of the build and look of each.


----------



## gianni60

Somatic said:


> Not sure. I’d like mid to high end. 5-8k?


I suggest 3 turntable,these are among the 3 best you can find in the market in his range price

The Wand   turntable and Master tonearm     6.700 euro price list in Italy
Bauer DPS 3 with unipivot tonearm               9.400 euro 
STST Motus DQ                                             4.700 euro without tonearm,can put a Wand Tonearm around 2.000 euro

This are price list,then you can have some discount


----------



## kid vic

Somatic said:


> I have a TT2. Haven’t bought the turntable yet. Might get a Dave. I’d like a better audiophile turntable as well. Any thoughts on setting this up?


5-8k can get you a great TT and phonostage in that price range. I'd suggest looking for a used VPI or Linn LP12; there are lots of other great tables as well but those are quite common and well regarded. As for phonostages, Parasound, Chord, SPL, Ayre and Gold Note all make excellent stages that you won't need to upgrade from at all. You can get a Hana, Ortofon, or Dynavector cart for sub $1000 as well; Ortofon would be the most common of the three but all are fairly common.

A suggested setup might look like:

Linn LP12 Sonndek
Chord Huei
Ortofon Black

If you buy the Linn and the Huei second hand you can save some change.


----------



## iFi audio

Somatic said:


> Can someone help me on how I can connect the Susvara or TC to turntables?



If I were you I'd first read about amps that go well with Susvara nad TC. These cans are rather notorious loads, but can sound awesome and amps for them make a substantial difference. Here the Susvara thread should help:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hifiman-susvara.853031/page-1039#post-16936997

With an amp ou of the way I'd then see how much money I have left and based on that I'd look for a phonostage. Hope this helps!

Of course all that makes sense if you already have a turntable


----------



## cinisi

Installed a GT subplatter assembly and triple pulley on my RP6 today and am very happy with the result


----------



## CJG888

An Achromat on a Rega?

HERESY!!!! 

WITCH! WITCH!

OK, I use one on my Garrard, and it sounds excellent…


----------



## ops V




----------



## CJG888

ops V said:


>


Something Russian?


----------



## ops V

CJG888 said:


> Something Russian?


This music center was made in the USSR 40 years ago and still works fine.


----------



## Podster

The 26mm Acetal Platter sure does the trick for my RP8


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


> The 26mm Acetal Platter sure does the trick for my RP8



That's a nice turntable and congrats on clever decouplers!


----------



## Podster

iFi audio said:


> That's a nice turntable and congrats on clever decouplers!


THX, it's actually going to be my sons table once he graduates and gets his first place however I use those on all my tables since I order by the case  My table sits on 4 on a Brightstar which sits on 8 smaller ones


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


> THX, it's actually going to be my sons table once he graduates and gets his first place however



He has a cool dad 



Podster said:


> I use those on all my tables since I order by the case  My table sits on 4 on a Brightstar which sits on 8 smaller ones



I hear you, these are small affordable things that can make a noticeable difference.


----------



## Podster

iFi audio said:


> He has a cool dad
> 
> 
> 
> I hear you, these are small affordable things that can make a noticeable difference.


Well THX again and I'll admit they are probably a little overkill on a 51lb table but they look kinda cool  LOL


----------



## IndieGradoFan

Moved my Sol out to main system. Swapped out the Mani for an old Musical Fidelity M1LPS and have a MX VNYL on order. Going to add a Music Hall Cruise Control as well.

Re-setup the Sol this weekend. Got the 2M dialed in much better than when I first installed it. Sounding good right now!


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


> Well THX again and I'll admit they are probably a little overkill on a 51lb table but they look kinda cool  LOL



Have you by any chance tried removing them, just to see what happens? As in: whether there's any noticeable sound quality change?



IndieGradoFan said:


> Moved my Sol out to main system. Swapped out the Mani for an old Musical Fidelity M1LPS and have a MX VNYL on order. Going to add a Music Hall Cruise Control as well.
> 
> Re-setup the Sol this weekend. Got the 2M dialed in much better than when I first installed it. Sounding good right now!



That's a very clean looking setup. Two thumbs up from us


----------



## bbophead

cinisi said:


> Installed a GT subplatter assembly and triple pulley on my RP6 today and am very happy with the result


----------



## bbophead (Jul 6, 2022)

That is very beautiful, first time I have seen it in white.  Mine's in black and I'm cool with that.  Congrats on the GT additions.  I have them all, except for the three step pulley, and I thought the one GT mod that sealed it for me was the delrin platter.  Could be my imagination but things got quieter, the sound had more solidity, it was a big improvement.  Bonus is, I don't have to fiddle with those damn mats everyone is selling.


----------



## Podster

iFi audio said:


> Have you by any chance tried removing them, just to see what happens? As in: whether there's any noticeable sound quality change?
> 
> 
> 
> That's a very clean looking setup. Two thumbs up from us


No sir, when putting it together I had as mentioned a case of the Iso's so I just put them in and the rig sounds so good I hate to take them back out  LOL


bbophead said:


> That is very beautiful, first time I have seen it in white.  Mine's in black and I'm cool with that.  Congrats on the GT additions.  I have them all, except for the three step pulley, and I thought the one GT mod that sealed it for me was the delrin platter.  Could be my imagination but things got quieter, the sound had more solidity, it was a big improvement.  Bonus is, I don't have to fiddle with those damn mats everyone is selling.


I have a good friend who has the 40th Anni RP3 and he feels the same way about the Delrin in the upgrade package he bought (think it was a Belt, Sub-Platter and the Delrin) iirc  After hearing his upgrade I was thinking about tricking out a RP3 or even a 6 but when MD put the last of the RP8's on for $1995 I just figured I could bypass all the mods in favor of one ready to go Love this baby and I know my 6'4" baby boy will too I still can't decide if I prefer it skeleton or full plinth Since they are basically decoupled I really hear no sound difference but visually the Skeleton always catches peoples eye I like the beer coaster leveling devices, reminds me of stuffing a sugar packet under the rocking table leg in a cheap diner


----------



## bbophead

Podster said:


> No sir, when putting it together I had as mentioned a case of the Iso's so I just put them in and the rig sounds so good I hate to take them back out  LOL
> 
> I have a good friend who has the 40th Anni RP3 and he feels the same way about the Delrin in the upgrade package he bought (think it was a Belt, Sub-Platter and the Delrin) iirc  After hearing his upgrade I was thinking about tricking out a RP3 or even a 6 but when MD put the last of the RP8's on for $1995 I just figured I could bypass all the mods in favor of one ready to go Love this baby and I know my 6'4" baby boy will too I still can't decide if I prefer it skeleton or full plinth Since they are basically decoupled I really hear no sound difference but visually the Skeleton always catches peoples eye I like the beer coaster leveling devices, reminds me of stuffing a sugar packet under the rocking table leg in a cheap diner


Very, VERY nice!  And, you never know when that 45 single will show up needing an adaptor.😎


----------



## Podster

bbophead said:


> Very, VERY nice!  And, you never know when that 45 single will show up needing an adaptor.😎


LOL, I have a nice 1/2 inch aluminum one but I keep that one out for nostalgia  

Of course your new reissue releases the 7" ones just have a center hole like a 12", this is an awesome pre T-Rex box set (Lower Left) with center punch hole


----------



## Podster

Been a few different isolation set-ups with this table as well as cartridges since I got it 4-5 years ago now!





Crazy thing is the best sounding to my ears on this setup as far as cartridges I've tried it the AT VNM40 Micro Line!





Love this table and it's almost unbelievable design and tracking ability but Firebaugh missed the mark on the handball isolation feet because they dry rot in place over time





Fortunately Mike at TOFFCO provided me with a supplier for the Red Dot handballs, they are great to deal with Seems 51Lbs really puts a load on them!


----------



## Podster

I never thought a 10" sand filled tonearm attached to a Golf ball suspended in a pool of silicone could actually maintain it's azimuth and track as well as it does. Heres a guys video of it in action however whatever he recorded the video with does not sound that awesome but you can see the GTA in action


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


> No sir, when putting it together I had as mentioned a case of the Iso's so I just put them in and the rig sounds so good I hate to take them back out  LOL



All good, that's understandable. If it works, it works  

In our smaller HQ I used to sneak to our big setup (with a heavily modified Garrard 301 and AMR's stuff) and take out decouplers just to see how its components react. That's how I've learned how beneficial such simple cost-effective things can be


----------



## iFi audio

Podster said:


> LOL, I have a nice 1/2 inch aluminum one but I keep that one out for nostalgia
> 
> Of course your new reissue releases the 7" ones just have a center hole like a 12", this is an awesome pre T-Rex box set (Lower Left) with center punch hole



I have to ask: that iPod 5.5G with a red clickwheel, is it original  ?


----------



## Podster (Jul 8, 2022)

iFi audio said:


> I have to ask: that iPod 5.5G with a red clickwheel, is it original  ?


That's the U2 version of the 30gb 5gen Pod, also has all the bands names engraved on the back and yes the red clickwheel was standard on it. Also came with a sweet U2 various videos load.

Seems they are gaining in value since I got mine!

https://www.mercari.com/us/item/m97...MI3K-SoJ_q-AIVRR6tBh0qnAMgEAQYBSABEgIXTPD_BwE

This one is just in good condition and mine has been in the Yo-Tank since day one and is spotless Hmm

Then again maybe not!

https://www.ebay.com/p/82882638 

LOL


----------



## IndieGradoFan

MX-VNYL balanced phono stage and Music Hall Cruise Control both arrived. Running unbalanced to the phono stage and then balanced to Freya. Background is silent and everything sounds tighter.


----------



## iFi audio (Jul 11, 2022)

Podster said:


> That's the U2 version of the 30gb 5gen Pod, also has all the bands names engraved on the back and yes the red clickwheel was standard on it. Also came with a sweet U2 various videos load.
> 
> Seems they are gaining in value since I got mine!
> 
> ...



IIRC original U2 versions were sold for a lot, so it's surprising seeing them now listed at roughly $130 or so. Seems suspicious... or maybe these aren't as sought after as they used to, I think.


----------



## bmichels

My Vintage Turnable with the famous SME 3009, positioned in a modern HIFI system...


----------



## Podster

bmichels said:


> My Vintage Turnable with the famous SME 3009, positioned in a modern HIFI system...


Gorgeous

I've set my oldest up with something he can appreciate the vinyl he has as well, he's not into gear as much as his little brother and he needed something more carefree and auto lift since I know he'll fall asleep while listening! Did get him an extra head shell and 2M Red


----------



## bbophead

Podster said:


> Gorgeous
> 
> I've set my oldest up with something he can appreciate the vinyl he has as well, he's not into gear as much as his little brother and he needed something more carefree and auto lift since I know he'll fall asleep while listening! Did get him an extra head shell and 2M Red


Slick.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Jul 30, 2022)

I'm doing an overhaul of my Thorens TD 125 MKII, not done yet, but a bulk of the work done yesterday, here are some photos along the way.

Here's what I've done so far:
-New custom walnut plinth
-New armboard
-New tonearm, Sorane TA-1
-Removed original 3-switch fascia plate with new 2-switch fascia plate (no more cueing lever needed with the new arm)

Here's what I still have to do:
-Replace worn components in the suspension system (new springs, rubber washers, suspension cups have already been replaced)
-Will add Isoacoustics Orea Indigo isolation feet
-Build 5-pin DIN to dual 3-pin XLR tonearm cable
-Replace electrolytic caps on the speed controller board
-New custom dust cover

Some photos of the work so far.  I'll post a final pic when it's done and back in my system 

Before photo.




Interior of the table, showing some work I did a while back.



Original plinth removed.



Armboard and tonearm removed.



Subchassis removed from the top plate. Here you can see the springs the top plate floats upon.  I decided after the fact that I would like to replace the suspension parts, so the top plate will need to be removed again when replacements arrive.



Here the subchassis with the new plinth added, new fascia plate. Cleaned up everything, including the motor, strobe lens, mirror, etc.



Top plate replaced, new armboard and tonearm added on, switches replaced, everything cleaned.



Platter hand polished, rubber matte washed.


----------



## CJG888

Now THAT is a turntable!


----------



## Podster

I rather like that brand myself


----------



## ops V




----------



## CJG888

I thought I’d let you all see it for one last time before the second arm goes on:


----------



## Podster

CJG888 said:


> I thought I’d let you all see it for one last time before the second arm goes on:


Love that baby CJ, you know my good buddy a cross town re-worked and put a new plinth and Jelco 12" on his  

Raw Plinth:



Installed:



British Racing Green


----------



## CJG888

...or Shindo Green?


----------



## CJG888 (Aug 1, 2022)

May I ask which mat you are using?


----------



## CJG888

L0rdGwyn said:


> I'm doing an overhaul of my Thorens TD 125 MKII, not done yet, but a bulk of the work done yesterday, here are some photos along the way.
> 
> Here's what I've done so far:
> -New custom walnut plinth
> ...


Will you be putting an SPU on the end of that?


----------



## CJG888

BTW, strange that it has 16 RPM but not 78!


----------



## Podster

CJG888 said:


> ...or Shindo Green?


I don't know, he says its British Racing green but I've seen this 301 in so many configurations over the past several years! I called this one the Spider version!






CJG888 said:


> May I ask which mat you are using?


Was not sure if you were asking me or LO! I'll ask my bud, this is the only shot I think I have showing his mat.


----------



## JohanE

Technics SL-1500C / Ortofon 2M Bronze / Clearaudio Nano v2


----------



## bbophead

CJG888 said:


> I thought I’d let you all see it for one last time before the second arm goes on:


----------



## bbophead

Very clean and beautiful.  And, I love Bud Powell.


Podster said:


> I don't know, he says its British Racing green but I've seen this 301 in so many configurations over the past several years! I called this one the Spider version!
> 
> 
> 
> Was not sure if you were asking me or LO! I'll ask my bud, this is the only shot I think I have showing his mat.


Nice.  I'm not fond of mats in general.  I put a delrin platter on my Rega and that was a game changer.


----------



## CJG888

I've tried the stock mat, a reproduction stock mat, a generic rubber mat, the Loricraft 2-part cork mat and a Funk Achromat on my 301.

The Achromat wins by a country mile. However, it is very thick, and only leaves just enough spindle to locate a record weight. Clamps will no longer fit...

Second choice was the cork, in combination with four rubber O-rings around the platter. These are no longer necessary with the Achromat.

Maybe I will try a copper mat at some point...


----------



## CJG888

The challenge for Garrard mats is to keep the resonant, lightweight platter under control, without sucking all the life out of the music.


----------



## Podster

CJG888 said:


> The challenge for Garrard mats is to keep the resonant, lightweight platter under control, without sucking all the life out of the music.


imo it's exactly why the Achromat sounds so good to you, then again you know what they say about opinions    I'm guessing since I did not read original Achromat post that it is/was 3mm or 5mm? I've also seen a 3mm with blue tack (18 Dots) directly applied to platter and I recall it having a pleasant effect easing hard surface brightness I did mention the opinion thing right I think the Achromat is a great platter solution and the RP10's full on Achroplat platter is dead quite, have thought about ordering one for the RP8


----------



## Podster

Once again and always just enthusiast opinion the Achromat sound exactly like the RP10 Ceramic Platter in resonance character. I've heard the same solidity in the Audio Technica AT600 platter (on a Denon DP47F), two different materials but very very close in sound for me  

Really starting to appreciate the Hana green after a few hundred hours


----------



## CJG888

Work in progress:


----------



## CJG888

All done:


----------



## theeclone (Aug 22, 2022)

Wow. Talk about bang for the buck! Audio technica lp7 is far exceeding my expectations.

I'm so happy my grado pairs well with it too, minus the dreaded occasional tracking issue. Still dialing in the anti skate. Maybe I'll eventually fix it. No hum tho. Nice black background.

I tried with the provided AT cartridge and it wasn't for me. Pretty engaging but quite fatiguing to my ears. The highs felt a bit too emphasized tho detail retreival was excellent. Now I'm back to the grado gold and couldn't be happier.

Before this I was listening on a technics 1200. I really think it's true what some people say about the harshness of the mids on that 'table. I've heard it described as a kind of jitter that gets induced as the 1200 constantly adjusts its speed to keep it dialed exactly in. No hum issues with the grado on the 1200 either, though I did notice some bearing chatter.

The lp7 is silky smooth with the grado. I get lost in the reverbs. I feel the bass in my body in a very pleasant way. It's a warm bass that never feels overly muddy. The channel separation probably isn't as good as with the AT cart, but it's plenty holographic sounding. And no real issues with bearing chatter.

Kind of annoying to not have a hinged dust cover, but I learned to stop worrying and love the sound of an uncovered 'table. I'm also learning that so far I like the sound of a felt mat more than rubber, cork, or directly on the platter. Almost feels like it gives the mids more room to breath, and helps give snare hits more "thwack".


----------



## theeclone

theeclone said:


> Wow. Talk about bang for the buck! Audio technica lp7 is far exceeding my expectations.
> 
> I'm so happy my grado pairs well with it too, minus the dreaded occasional tracking issue. Still dialing in the anti skate. Maybe I'll eventually fix it. No hum tho. Nice black background.
> 
> ...






UPDATE: Fluid damped! Tracking issues are no more. This tonearm has a bit too much mass for a grado to track well. The slightest warp was throwing things into chaos before, but not anymore.

It seems to have changed the sound quite a bit as well. Jury's still out on if I like the sound better with the dampening. I'm thinking I can back off the tracking force and anti skate now to open things back up sonically. Feels slightly more dead with 1.7 or so grams. Might take it down to 1.5 and reassess.


----------



## Strat1117 (Sep 17, 2022)

theeclone said:


> UPDATE: Fluid damped! Tracking issues are no more. This tonearm has a bit too much mass for a grado to track well. The slightest warp was throwing things into chaos before, but not anymore.
> 
> It seems to have changed the sound quite a bit as well. Jury's still out on if I like the sound better with the dampening. I'm thinking I can back off the tracking force and anti skate now to open things back up sonically. Feels slightly more dead with 1.7 or so grams. Might take it down to 1.5 and reassess.


A high mass tonearm will never allow a grado (or any high compliance MM cart) to sound right. High mass tonearms are for low compliance MC cartridges. For a grado, many of which are wonderful cartridges, you need a low mass tonearm or the sound will be lifeless. This is basic turntable/tonearm/
cartridge matching stuff. I’m NOT finding fault with you, it just irks me when sales people don’t educate their customers (or are simply ignorant themselves).  They should not have let you buy a grado for a high mass arm - and I’d hate to see you get frustrated due to such a simple error.

Fluid damping is a separate issue, some like it, some don’t (saying it eliminates detail), but I’m afraid it won’t solve your compliance mismatch problem. It’s mainly intended to prevent low compliance cartridges from throwing the tonearm around - you’re trying to use it in reverse.

Just my $.02, YMMV, IMHO

But, I speak from 45 years of turntable set up experience.


----------



## audiobill

Nottingham Dais table with Wave Mechanic power supply, Origin Live Enterprise-C tonearm, Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge


----------



## theeclone (Sep 17, 2022)

Strat1117 said:


> A high mass tonearm will never allow a grado (or any high compliance MM cart) to sound right. High mass tonearms are for low compliance MC cartridges. For a grado, many of which are wonderful cartridges, you need a low mass tonearm or the sound will be lifeless. This is basic turntable/tonearm/
> cartridge matching stuff. I’m NOT finding fault with you, it just irks me when sales people don’t educate their customers (or are simply ignorant themselves).  They should not have let you buy a grado for a high mass arm - and I’d hate to see you get frustrated due to such a simple error.
> 
> Fluid damping is a separate issue, some like it, some don’t (saying it eliminates detail), but I’m afraid it won’t solve your compliance mismatch problem. It’s mainly intended to prevent low compliance cartridges from throwing the tonearm around - you’re trying to use it in reverse.
> ...


I don't think Audio Technica have published the tonearm mass for this 'table, so I kind of rolled the dice. With a little sleuthing I decided I think it's a medium mass arm.

I already had a grado gold, so I tried it out. I actually thought it sounded great but just had annoying tracking problems at first. I still think it sounds really good with the fluid dampening, just a little less lush/open. Still, three dimensionality is pretty good and the bass response is better with the dampening.

Also, even with the dampening I still like the grado better than the included AT cart on this 'table. Any suggestions on other carts if you're addicted to the grado sound but have a medium-ish mass tonearm?


----------



## CJG888

I can recommend the „Image HiFi“ test record as a simple way to check cartridge / arm resonant frequency.


----------



## CJG888

OK, so I’m now an SPU convert!

I have the modified AS-212 and a SUT with taps for sub-3 Ohm cartridges, and I got a good deal on an SPU #1E. 

The idea of tracking at 4g is still a little frightening, and I got a bit of a shock at the end of the first LP side, when the cartridge body slammed into my record weight (hence no weight when using the SPU!).

The sound? Well, it’s unconventional. It takes the SET sound to another level. It’s all about the midrange, which is very well resolved, and gains “body” and “flesh”. It certainly makes old Blue Note recordings come to life. Not strictly accurate, but highly addictive.


----------



## Podster

CJG888 said:


> OK, so I’m now an SPU convert!
> 
> I have the modified AS-212 and a SUT with taps for sub-3 Ohm cartridges, and I got a good deal on an SPU #1E.
> 
> ...


Beautiful CJ, I think I recall having the same feeling the first time I heard a well setup Linn Sondek  I thought they looked kooky and assumed that was what they would sound like and I ate a little crow for it at the timeLOL


----------



## Strat1117

theeclone said:


> I don't think Audio Technica have published the tonearm mass for this 'table, so I kind of rolled the dice. With a little sleuthing I decided I think it's a medium mass arm.
> 
> I already had a grado gold, so I tried it out. I actually thought it sounded great but just had annoying tracking problems at first. I still think it sounds really good with the fluid dampening, just a little less lush/open. Still, three dimensionality is pretty good and the bass response is better with the dampening.
> 
> Also, even with the dampening I still like the grado better than the included AT cart on this 'table. Any suggestions on other carts if you're addicted to the grado sound but have a medium-ish mass tonearm?


I wish I could give you a more definitive answer, but it’s been many many years since I’ve had an MM cartridge. I believe that some of the wood body Grados (Statement series?) are lower compliance, but you’d have to do some homework to be certain, and they are definitely in a higher price bracket than the gold (which is certainly a beautiful sounding cartridge - indeed, way back I had a MusicMan modified gold from the UK that I wanted desperately to make work with my SME IV tonearm but, alas, the mismatch was too great and I never could get them to play nicely together). 

Good luck, and Enjoy the ride!


----------



## theeclone

Strat1117 said:


> I wish I could give you a more definitive answer, but it’s been many many years since I’ve had an MM cartridge. I believe that some of the wood body Grados (Statement series?) are lower compliance, but you’d have to do some homework to be certain, and they are definitely in a higher price bracket than the gold (which is certainly a beautiful sounding cartridge - indeed, way back I had a MusicMan modified gold from the UK that I wanted desperately to make work with my SME IV tonearm but, alas, the mismatch was too great and I never could get them to play nicely together).
> 
> Good luck, and Enjoy the ride!



Thanks, I will look into the older statement cartridges! It seems pretty much anything in their newer series' are 20cu.

For the time being I've upgraded to an 8mz stylus and have taken the paddle off the fluid dampening system. Much prefer the sound without it and am willing to put up with the ocasional tracking issue. Maybe 95% of the time I'm fine in that department now. If I need to archive a warped record I can reattach the paddle or use the AT cart if it pairs well w the record.

Also these paver stones help for when I'm walking nearby


----------



## CJG888

Work in progress:


----------



## Podster

theeclone said:


> Thanks, I will look into the older statement cartridges! It seems pretty much anything in their newer series' are 20cu.
> 
> For the time being I've upgraded to an 8mz stylus and have taken the paddle off the fluid dampening system. Much prefer the sound without it and am willing to put up with the ocasional tracking issue. Maybe 95% of the time I'm fine in that department now. If I need to archive a warped record I can reattach the paddle or use the AT cart if it pairs well w the record.
> 
> Also these paver stones help for when I'm walking nearby


Well done, my foot fault remedy was suspended  Not to be confused with my drivers license condition


----------



## Podster

I still marvel at how this arm tracks so well, I'd like to know how Jim even came up with it! Had an Epiphany on the Golf course and said I have an idea for a new tone arm design, how it works and tracks true is simply amazing


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Finally finished the overhaul of my Thorens TD 125 MKII.

Here's everything I've done to it:

-New walnut plinth
-Sorane TA-1 tonearm
-New custom Corian armboard
-Replaced rubber washers in the suspension
-Replaced suspension adjustment cups
-New balanced 5-pin DIN to dual 3-pin XLR tonearm cable
-New aluminum face plate (cuing switch removed as it was no longer functional with the new tonearm)
-Replaced electrolytic caps on the speed controller
-Polished the platter

Still even more I could do, but time to stop for now!


----------



## CJG888

Of course you _could_ try an SPU…


----------



## L0rdGwyn

CJG888 said:


> Of course you _could_ try an SPU…



Nah I am all turntabled out for a while!  I have to finish preparing a DIY amplifier project, finish design and build a new NOS DAC, I have another amplifier I want to build too assuming the guy who makes the transformers will build them for me...

Probably the next vinyl project for me would be an LCR tube phono.  I actually have an entire design done, just need to pull the trigger.


----------



## CJG888

I can’t remember if I shared the latest episode in the Dual 1019 saga:





Now featuring the homemade “ultimate 1019 cartridge”:

Generator from a 1970s Shure M44MG cartridge (minus body)
Cocobolo wood body from Stanley Engineering 
Plenty of cyanoacrylate for potting
JICO N44-7 nude conical stylus


----------



## Strat1117 (Nov 7, 2022)

Podster said:


> Well done, my foot fault remedy was suspended  Not to be confused with my drivers license condition


I use Walker cones, but truthfully, this tt, despite its lack of a traditional suspension, is fairly impervious to footfalls.


----------



## CJG888

Strat1117 said:


> I use Walker cones, but truthfully, this ty, despite its lack of a traditional suspension, is fairly impervious to footfalls.


Interesting. Maybe I should try them under my SME10. Where did you get them?

Presumably they replace the sorbothane hemispheres?


----------



## George Hincapie

L0rdGwyn said:


> Finally finished the overhaul of my Thorens TD 125 MKII.
> 
> Here's everything I've done to it:
> 
> ...


Very nice! Would you like to refurbish mine?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

George Hincapie said:


> Very nice! Would you like to refurbish mine?



Thanks!  Sorry I have too many projects going on to take on more work.


----------



## Strat1117 (Nov 17, 2022)

CJG888 said:


> Interesting. Maybe I should try them under my SME10. Where did you get them?
> 
> Presumably they replace the sorbothane hemispheres?


They defeat the sorbothane hemispheres because they are so much taller. They go against the aluminum base, in the spaces between the sorbothane hemispheres, which you can still see in the photo if you look closely.

I have them at least 20 years - bought a buch of Walker cones and discs second hand on audiogon from a guy closing up a studio. I am fairly sure Lloyd esker is still in business but, imho, new they are prohibitively expensive, and I don’t know that they’d work any better than Mapleshade cones, which used to be much more reasonably priced. Sonically, the changes are exactly what you’d expect going from sorbothane to brass cones - faster, punchier, a little lighter on its feet.

Good luck!

YMMV, just my $.03, etc., _ad nauseum_


----------



## Podster

I recently got to go with friends who are heading up the new Klipsch museum in Hope AR. The plan is to have several set ups in different rooms of the house it’s being setup in. Brought my Cambridge Receiver and PHO phono pre to drive a pair of Heresy’s. I set up the vpi Player table (plug and play almost) LOL and the other three set up the sweet vpi Prime with it’s trick arm.





Hopefully once it’s opened tons of people who love audio history make it by


----------



## Strayngs




----------



## Podster

Strayngs said:


>


Really Nice, what I wouldn't give to have a Dedicated Man Cave and better yet just a clean sound room like this  Wife has been encroaching on my territory for so long I now share space with anything that won't fit in the out of season closets


----------



## Quinto (Nov 10, 2022)

Bought a usb microscoop to check out my ART9 stylus after 4 years of use..pleasantly surprised


----------



## CJG888

Dual 1019 in Ebel Holztechnik waxed birch plywood plinth:


----------



## Dawgfish




----------



## Dawgfish




----------



## Dawgfish




----------



## iFi audio

CJG888 said:


> Dual 1019 in Ebel Holztechnik waxed birch plywood plinth:



That Ply base looks dope!


----------



## Podster

Dawgfish said:


>


Some absolutely beautiful timeless pieces  I'm sure they all sound exquisite


----------



## Dawgfish

Thank you!  Much appreciated!  I have a few more that I'll post in the not to distant future.  I was in turntable collector mode in the late 2000s-early 2010s. They have all served me well and provide a great rotation.


----------



## dosley01

New tonearm for my HW-19.  I'd call this a Resto-Mod 19 since everything has been replaced with new or refurbished to like new.  There's really no reason why this won't last another 40 years.


----------



## andlum (Dec 30, 2022)

My Rega P6 (Excalibur Black MC system) with the Rega Aria phono stage.


----------



## Strat1117 (Dec 30, 2022)

dosley01 said:


> New tonearm for my HW-19.  I'd call this a Resto-Mod 19 since everything has been replaced with new or refurbished to like new.  There's really no reason why this won't last another 40 years.


I owned and loved an HW-19 for many, many years. I highly recommend the Mk. IV platter, acrylic top (and/or arm board) and, if you don’t already have it, the SAMA mod. Still, it’s a superb deck as is, and yours is a beautiful example. I miss it!

Enjoy!


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## Riccioli30 (Dec 30, 2022)

Redcarmoose said:


> As far as source components go these are both old fashion and new. The turntable is made of many materials and is configured in many ways. They would have to be the oldest way of producing music in the home along with musical instruments. They end up being very fascinating for some and can be frustrating for many. Post your table photographs if you own one.


Accoustic Solid / Ortofon/SME- Garrard 301/SME 3012/ SOTA /SME V (various cartrige)


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## Riccioli30

Redcarmoose said:


> As far as source components go these are both old fashion and new. The turntable is made of many materials and is configured in many ways. They would have to be the oldest way of producing music in the home along with musical instruments. They end up being very fascinating for some and can be frustrating for many. Post your table photographs if you own one.


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## Podster




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## Strat1117

Spinning the latest release (“four”) from Bill Frisell.


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## Dawgfish

Podster said:


>


Really cool deck!


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## Dawgfish

Riccioli30 said:


> Accoustic Solid / Ortofon/SME- Garrard 301/SME 3012/ SOTA /SME V (various cartrige)


Beautiful deck!


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## Dawgfish

Strat1117 said:


> Spinning the latest release (“four”) from Bill Frisell.


Wow!  Another great deck with a Lyra cart to boot.  So many beautiful turntables in this thread!


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## Strat1117 (Dec 30, 2022)

Dawgfish said:


> Wow!  Another great deck with a Lyra cart to boot.  So many beautiful turntables in this thread!


Thanks!  Turntables, especially MC cartridges (and, now, headphones 😉), have always been far and away my favorite pieces of audio gear.


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## Riccioli30

Dawgfish said:


> Beautiful deck!





Dawgfish said:


> Beautiful deck!



Yes I am an analog man , turntables and RtR. I don't listen to much on headphones and in my rigs have "little" satisfaction from digital,that I find not very organic and natural (I tried everything - even top - until I gave up, and I resigned: it always comes "after" to analog - IMO). But it's very convenient and i can access endless music for what it's worth. But if you want to close your eyes and touch the music, talk to the interpreter, hold your breath... put on a nice record or tape (2trk-38cms)..always IMO of course...


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