# Oblivion | UltraSonic Studios



## Maxx134 (May 15, 2019)

Oblivion | UltraSonic Studios
Builder: @SonicTrance
Ultrasonicstudios.org

Schematic designer: @MrCurwen

Introduction
True & ideal hybrid amp. True Implementation of Tubes for voltage, and solid state for current. Truly modern design choices of mating circuit designs like CCS & Gyrators effectively to reducing parasitics to the point where component quality does not interfere with, or become a factor for optimal sound(!)
That perspective is a huge game changer in itself.

Gone are the old-school tube designs of which mostly ALL of current tube amps are still using which are ancient, old, and non-creative. Gone are the days of heavy expensive output Transformers and huge expensive capacitors. Gone are the headaches of worrying about super expensive parts quality upgrades. Gone are the aggravation of expense in endless tube rolling to find the best match for the amps with expensive tubes!

What I am saying is that this ideal modern mating of Solid state and tube is a game changer not because of what it uses, but because of how it is implemented.
Thanks to @MrCurwen for both the design and the unique perspective of design choices,
We have a resolving amp with high transient speed and high END GAME level transparency, due to reduction of parasitics and component choices which use parts to their best design parameters.
You see I slipped in the word "end-game". This term is not easily thrown around and so you now already have an idea at what level we are playing here.
This is not just another tube amp, or just another hybrid amp using two amplification devices as a "novelty".
This amp to me, defines the proper use of the term hybrid amp and finally gets it right.
No dumb leds or special circuits thrown in, just for novelty to impress.
Only the music produced is what is meant to impress.

My type of review a bit unsual as it does not follow like colorful ambiguous reviews which lose the reader in dumb music selection attributes.
This to me is placebo to reference a review to itself and nothing else.
You have no "ruler" to base your impressions on.
So my review instead deals with music selection as a secondary and non-issue.
Only amp qualities are _compared_, TO OTHER REFERENCE END GAME AMPS(!).

Not many, but the primary point, is to enough to gain a good perspective and feel of what I am talking about.
I have been testing/modding-upgrading/listening to other expensive amps in $4k range.
Namely, an upgraded Eddie Current Aficionado (EML mesh plates & cap upgrades), Cayin HA300, Benchmark HPA4, and a Stax009/KGSSHV Carbon combo setup, Woo Wa33, and some speaker amps are among the units tried/comapred & mentioned, only in order to gain a perspective of the quality level we are at.
As for source gear, they were Yggy A1 & A2 and Holo Spring


Aficionado audio upgrades I put in:


Spoiler: Details



After much trials, the stock Nichicon cathode caps in both driver and output stages were upgraded to same model Nichicon KZ, but higher voltage spec for lower ESR & faster transients, from 25v&50v to 50v.
Coupling caps upgraded to best Jupiter copper foil.
Output tube sockets rotated 180degree & tubes upgraded to EML mesh 2A3. ($1000)
Input tubes upgraded to LM Ericson 2C51/396A


The total upgrades optimized the Aficionado superior to stock, and I considered it as a preferred reference over the others for a time.
So this version of the Aficionado was the main comparison to @SonicTrance new amp Oblivion.

*Topology*
The topology of Oblivion is transformer coupled (parafeed) balanced amp with open loop (no NFB). SE input stage with balanced CCS loaded source followers that drives the output tube grids. The grid drivers relieves the input tubes of any drive duty. Tubes do voltage amplification and FET’s supply current. Tubes do what they do best and FETs do what they do best.

The LTP output stage is force balanced through the CCS tail. All tube anodes are gyrator loaded. Regulated B+ and B- so the voltage doesn’t fluctuate with the signal.
Since Oblivion is open loop (zero NFB) and constant current draw it recovers extremely quick after high transient peaks. That why there's no need for many watts of headroom with this topology like in many other amps with cathode bias and NFB.
Input tubes are 6AT6’s
Output tubes are EL81’s
Here are the pics of this beautiful amp.


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Notice how this unit looks so professionally made. Member SonicTrance certainly knows how to make it look extremely well finished.
The volume is very smooth and the selector feels especially solid.
That metal XLR is a rarity and is very satisfying plugging into.

*Impressions:*
If meat is the main part of your meal, this review gets right to that as best I can.
To the few manufacturers of these mentioned amps, as I will now remind all to put this review in perspective, that we ARE discussing ALL TOTL Elite “summit-fi” quality amps, not mid-grade stuff, which means final choices are all at a level of personal preference... They all have their strengths which I will try to describe as well.

Here are the main qualities of this amp I will state in my impression quotes:
These will be laid out in “note taking” form, as I have taken many notes while doing comparison, listening, and discussion with others listening at same time.

This “Oblivion” amp has transient speed, immediacy and openness. Holographic organic imaging tube qualities without coloration/harmonics of tubes.

_Here are my subjective impressions:_
The strongest quality of the Oblivion amp was the soundstage. The oblivion was properly laid out, compared to the(upgraded) Aficionado, and a bit more depth resolve than the Stax009/KGSSHV Carbon setup.
Yet the Stax009 had a bit more pronounced detailing.

The Oblivion had the best soundstage and was able to make the Abyss Phi sound the most liveliest it ever sounded..
It made the Aficionado sound a bit colored & splashy.. Which on hindsight would be logical since it is a traditional tube designed amp.
*All three above mentioned amps all had super high level resolve*, but the presentation was so well done by Oblivion, that it made other amps appear skewed in the image presentation from absolute accuracy.
In comparison to the Oblivion, the Stax was a bit exaggerated in raising the detail levels, and had a bit less depth resulting in a closer image.

The Aficionado was a bit exaggerated in tube color (as expected), and image presentation (actual “shape” of the soundstage boundaries to be curved). Only in comparison could you perceive that the excellent sounding Aficionado was not as accurately laid out as the Oblivion, both horizontally and in depth. Just that bit skewed enough to slightly notice in comparison, otherwise these things would not be easily detected at all. Certainly not without comparison and critical listening.

Remember that the Aficionado was upgraded to the max with both internal upgrades and $1000 output tubes.
Regardless, all three amps had über high and true “end-game” level resolve. Just the presentation was different.
Oblivion amp just had outstanding and unbeatable image rendering both laterally and in depth.
IMO, out of all these superior amps, the Oblivion kept _best soundstage presentation accuracy overall_, with a liquid holographic and color free sound, with SPEED. The transients, being noted as given attention in the design, showed it in playing a large part in giving the harder to drive Abyss PHI more liveliness.

I always thought I preferred euphoric tube color until I heard the qualities of musicality, delicacy and holography, without any tube richness or color. This is what Oblivion amp portrayed. The woo wa33 also was compared side-by-side with the Oblivion, and it also portrayed this less ”tubey” nature, while the richest tube sound came out of the Cayin HA300, which to me was the most well done ”tubey” amp as far as euphoric tube sound went.
My friend said the Oblivion most reminded him of the both the KGSSHV Carbon and the Viva Egoista845 amp together, in terms of spaciousness, speed, and transients. I agreed from my memory of the Viva845 I had heard earlier few days before.

_Musical comments:_
Initial first impressions...(with HD800)
Testing piano it is playing so clean... No tube euphoria but with the delicacy and realism that solid state does not give...Actually it does have an immediate and very lively aspect.
Nuance and bass string pluck and bass into an HD800 is pretty impressive, it also seems like a smooth amp, while retaining top end clarity. The HD800 is good at picking out differences there.
Piano has holography & nuance so that is very telling.
Live Audience applause is very individual, another classic sign of high level resolve.
Image overall sounds a bit larger than usual.
Background is dead silent I thought it was broke as it is so silent!

Later, the main headphone we tested the Oblivion was with was the Abyss Phi..

The first time that the Abyss Phi reached Stax level sound realism was with Oblivion.
The Aficionado had high realism as well, but not as alive.
Not as clean in harmonics, or expansive in image in the lateral plane ...
Oblivion actually eclipses the Aficionado, which I personally modded to be superior than stock.

My friend and I were both amazed and in partial disbelief of the performance of the Oblivion!
It was a bit hard to accept the realization that this amp was performing at such high a level.
It really was not expected Oblivion to even come close, let alone SURPASS the Aficionado...!
For me it was a surreal and funny moment to realize you cant believe what your hearing..

Transients and sonic image were amazing on the amp.
Realism, refinement, effortlessness, neutrality, solid presentation, timbre..
All outclassed the Aficionado for me(!).
Sounded a lot like the stax009 setup, but with a better soundstage field.
Made the Aficionado sound a bit warped (rounded) in soundfield extremes, with also a more colored image(tubes).
The Aficionado's *realism* _was there in spades_, as this was end-game level, but for me the presentation of this realism was skewed in the soundstage.

Both the Stax009/Carbon setup, and Oblivion presented the image more realistically to me, while Oblivion actually pulled ahead in both the horizontal plane, and in depth field clarity.
I realized that the Stax setup was sounding like it exaggerating and compressed forward some layering of the detailing (in comparison), and that is why Oblivion was actually more true to the source.

Using the LCD3 was actually very efficient, and it did extremely well.
The LCD3 in bass was a bit more articulate than the Abyss, although noticably less impactful, and it's(LCD3) upper range was less resolving overall than the top headphones we heard in past.

The HD800 was phenomenal with the amp.
Nothing lacking except bass level, while bass nuance matched the stax009.
The Abyss phi bass, although powerful, was not as articulate or resolving as both the Stax & the HD800.
The LCD3 came close but was not at the level.

The Oblivion is clearly and unmistakably superior to any tube amp or hybrid I have heard so far. The openness of stage and clarity is on another level than anything short of a Stax setup.
The clarity and dynamics combined with superior soundstage is, to me, above any amp I have heard(!), with exception of an EC Studio which I would need to direct compare to in future.
I really cannot find fault in Oblivion.

About the other amps:
_Subjective notes_:
The modded Aficionado I upgraded eclipsed the Cayin HA-300 rather easily, but that Cayin is way  more (tube)euphoric in sound than the Wa22 or the more powerful very transparent wa33...

Don't get me wrong, I like the wa22 and think it’s great, but it’s still mid-fi level in stock form, while we talking even higher end-game level sound...

My own heavily tuned LDMK8se that I put thousands extra money in, did not fully reach the (modded) Aficionado performance level, (which was a "reference point" for a while)…

The woo wa33 very easily reaches end-game level, but itsway less harmonics are not a beautiful as the Cayin HA-300, although the wa33 was higher in resolve...

The woo wa33 surpassed the "upgraded" (modded) Aficionado in power, and was less colored but also less enjoyable.

_Oblivion vs Woo wa33 using Susvara:
Subjective Notes:_
Oblivion wins slightly in soundstage, instrument separation, and width...
Both are a tie in clarity.
Woo wa33 win in power which gave it very slightly better low end punch hardly detected.
In a separate comparison, the Aficionado has slight thicker bass than these two.
The Oblivion did not sound any worse than the woo wa33. In fact the whole time it actually sounded cleaner and slightly more distinct in instrument separation. Probably by 3-5% more but still noticeable.

Remember to take this in perspective of so high a level that your headphones can alter such differences.
Third comparison at that time was a “First Watt” speaker amp which had a different, more organic tonality overall. Maybe thicker which made music more palpable for the Susvara, which was main headphone used for this test.

The Benchmark HPA4, after a 3week burn in, was the only commercially sold (not DIY) solid state headphone amp that I heard to reached the level of tubes in soundstage, similar to what the Carbon did to the Stax009.
I mention this because the upgraded Aficionado was preferred over both the HP4 & both over the Cayin HA300 in soundstage and clarity (respectively).

*Conclusion:*
So why do I tell you all this background info of other amps & headphones, when your just wanted to know about the "Oblivion"???...

So that you now will know just what level we talking about with the Oblivion.
From my observations:
*It is a notch ABOVE the reference moded Aficionado overall, in soundstage placement and solidity of realism.
*It is the only amp I tried (so far) that pushes the Abyss Phi to sound better (more lively) than I ever heard it before.
*It is only amp I felt not need any modding (like my LDMK8se) and so I purchased it for my own, as reference amp.

So far I consider it at total end-game status, at a less powerful level than the EC Studio.
I consider this a new breed of design philosophy and a no brainier at the price it beats out multi thousand dollar amps...

The Oblivion, being a "true" hybrid (not just having tube parts for the sake of having them), it has the best of both worlds.
The most accurate soundstage for me, so full holographic sound of a tube amp, plus having the very clean (yet non-sterile) sound of a solid state amp.

I have rolled the driver tube on the Oblivion to detect an ever so slight difference in "air" but basically you’re getting a "EC Studio" neutral sound with the life and holography of tubes.
Bass is present but not thick or "fat" like some tube amps can get. The transparency, transient speed, and clarity is what gets you.

I consider it my current reference.
I would only look for more power (EC Studio) if I had a Susvara, BUT if I had a Susvara, I would not bother with a headphone amp as it does its best with an actual speaker amp like the “First Watt” (like the HE6 needs)..
I preferred the Susvara over the Stax009/Carbon in that configuration.
For all other headphones, the Oblivion, or the higher model SonicTrance has to offer is the obvious choice for me.

I personally, am very content with the Oblivion amp.
It is unbeatable for a transparent reference amp, unless I wanted a thick syrupy or less resolved amp.
That’s my honest subjective opinion and I would not suggest something that would make me feel bad about suggesting.
It’s not about money for me, but the sound and practicality combined.

I “could” also suggest to you the Stax 009/KGSSHV-Carbon setup, as alternate choice of “end game” gear, but that requires many more thousands which crosses my limits of practical suggestions, as well as not sounding as layered to me.
To some, like me, I find the stax009 having the speed of the RAAL ribbon (which I also compared side-by-side to the mentioned stax009 setup), but just not as natural sounding(a bit artificial), especially in the bass, while the ribbon was natural and “perfect” sounding, except it just doesn’t cut it for me in bass, so I will stay with the more satisfying traditional planars and dynamics, which the Oblivion handles perfectly..

Anyways the Oblivion amp is currently what I could easily recommend in good conscience. Especially with a wide range of headphones since it was tested with the most demanding and reveling of headphones just mentioned.
Think of SonicTrance "Oblivion" amp as a colorless neutral, yet wonderful soundstage amp, where the joy comes not from the euphoric color, but instead the greater involvement of noticing everything in the stage without color.
You just instantly recognize the amp as sounding more true..
There is a feeling of majestic certainty in the soundstage presentation and timbre.
We talking about accuracy in presentation.

Price for Oblivion is USD 1450 and USD 1600 with speaker outputs

Contact @SonicTrance. He also offers an all balanced version called Citadel.

Considering what I have compared it to, I consider this amp to be a ridiculously great deal.


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## Maxx134 (Dec 23, 2022)

*Pics of production versions:*
_*Latest designs:*_



Images TBA.

_*New:*_

The *Black Odyssey* featuring KT170's, a pair of 5C3S's and a pair of 6SN7W's!

..
..
*Telemachus!:



A "modern" designed 300b! Check website for details!


*



_*Infinity *_

fantastic!

And a  300B version of Infinity!:



_*Eternity:*_

fantastic!
Another version of "Eternity":



Wow!
Check the website for more info!
These later versions, called the "Infinity" and "Eternity" are SE  (single ended) versions of the Oblivion/Citadel amps. With Infinity being the more powerful one of the two.👍

***
_*Odyssey*_:



Another latest.
Odyssey is a custom SET build. 🙂


****



*Oblivion*:

Original

.



Newer versions:



.



😯



Low profile version!
👍






*Citadel*:












*******












********
History and Topology from website:*

This design has been arrived at during several years by Mika Kalm aka MrCurwen. It’s quite well thought out, the individual parts complement each other. It was originally designed to avoid using boutique parts and instead use less known, still mostly undiscovered high quality but low price parts. Furthermore the design was made in such a way that diminishes reliance on parts.

In Oblivion the input stage is single ended while Citadel’s input stage is balanced. After the input stage, in both amps, are balanced CCS loaded source followers that drive the output tube grids.

The grid drivers serve two functions:


Relieve the previous stage of any drive responsibilities. This includes the coupling capacitor; the capacitor is basically completely transparent when placed in front of a FET gate.
Properly drive all the parasitics of the tube grid. All tubes draw some amount of grid current much before grid going positive. For best results, this must be accounted for, and the way to accommodate it is not thru a capacitor which is the traditional way.
The grid drivers improve transient response, they make the sound more ‘fast’ and dynamic. The technical reasons for this are 70% relating to the grid and Miller capacitance and 30% related to the coupling capacitor. The follower deals with both of them in a brute force manner.

All tubes have gyrator plate loads that provide a practically flat loadline for the tubes. This eliminates individual tube distortions. Also the balanced stages have a very powerful tail CCS, which eliminates practically all imbalances caused by tube mismatch. Matched tubes are not necessary with this design.

Everybody knows that a tube amp lives or dies by it’s output transformer. A not-so-good output transformer will traditionally always lead to a not-so-good amp. All OT’s are a bit problematic technically, so you should always buy the most expensive one.

These amps utilizes a technical solution which gets around this. OT price is no longer an issue! This is achieved by two design choices: no DC is passed through the OT primary, and the signal to the OT primary is driven by a low impedance source. These choices were not readily available in the past, but now they enable us to get rid of OT related imperfections.

Here you have two imperfect solutions (‘weak’ follower and an OT) that in effect cancel out each other’s weaknesses. The OT primary is such an easy load that the weak follower is overkill for the job (even a tube can manage it!) and produces no distortion, and the imperfect OT is so ‘overdriven’ that it’s parasitics disappear. It doesn’t produce any distortion. The idea of OT’s as distortion producers is a relic from ages past where you only had very compromised ways of driving the primary. Since the output is parafeed there’s no DC flowing in the OT primary.
The OT doesn’t need to be of boutique quality because it is driven to transparency as it is.

Both the B+ and B- power supplies are each regulated with a two FET regulator which keep the PSU output voltages rock solid, they don’t fluctuate with the signal on heavy transients. That combined with the constant current draw from the audio circuit make the power supply practically “perfect”. Meaning it doesn’t affect the signal in any way.

Both Oblivion and Citadel are designed with the same ideology in mind. The major difference between the two models is lower THD and less harmonics in the all balanced Citadel vs Oblivion. It’s a matter of taste; some prefer a touch of “tube sound” while others prefer full transparency.




SonicTrance said:


> I will now offer these amps with an optional impedance switch! I've made some measurements on my Citadel and updated the website with specs and power outputs. Will update the Oblivion page with power outputs when I've built the next one but it will be similar to Citadel.
> This is to give more power to high Z headphones.




Also,
MrCurwen:
comments on *tube rolling.*

Comments on *transients*:
here, and here.


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## Maxx134 (Apr 6, 2020)

*Reviews:

Members*:

joseph69:
*Citadel review*
*Post*

*wasupdog**:*
*Citadel Review*

UntilThen :
*Oblivion Review*

Gethyn:
Post
*Review

Phantaminum
Review

simr*
Impressions

cskippy
Impressions


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## MrCurwen

Thanks for the comments. 

Some (not a lot) more power could be had, but I myself haven't had need for it.

This is the SE input section version if I'm not mistaken, it has a touch of the old tube sound compared to the fully balanced version. I prefer the SE input stage for reasons of laziness, since I build all my own stuff, but for buyers it's a matter of taste. Both are extremely transparent in my opinion.

Did you try this amp with speakers? What were your impressions, how good was the power output?


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## baronbeehive

Thanks Maxx for the…. long awaited!!!... review, we've been licking our lips for too log LOL!

Your method of comparing with known top level amps is very pertinent for me, I found it a good method for detecting differences in the modded Little Dot MkVI+ for instance. The trouble with just reviewing music is that there is no baseline, and it's just an endless rehash of opinions which doesn't necessarily bear relation to improvements in technology for example.

This amp appears to do the business, ie. it does what I would expect from a TOTL amp in terms of soundstage which is the one thing that I would expect of an end game amp. The design philosophy is obviously proven in focussing on transient recovery rather than out and out power. This feature benefits from regulated PSU and balanced topology, in other words some thought went into the design, it was obviously not just thrown together, but each of the design goals was implemented in order to work together effectively to provide an up to date solution to age old problems in tube design.

The other thing is a definate decision to use hyrid components, tubes for voltage, FET's for current, etc. where each works best. I really agree with this approach and see no need to stick to the age old methods when you have modern solutions which work better. It was a while ago now that I decided that I no longer preferred the tube sound per se, and went for transparency rather than thick euphoric sound, in my decision on what components to use for modding, tube types etc. and I definately prefer more realism now, together with the holography that tubes still can give.

Thanks for highlighting the positive features of this amp, by SonicTrance, designed by MrCurwen, in your interesting review. These are exciting times in amp builds, bringing together the best in the new and old.

The only downside I can see…. no more tube rolling... well I wasn't really into that anyway...honest!!

I look forward to seeing how the all balanced design of Sonic's other new build amp, the "Citadel" I believe, can improve yet on this Oblivion amp!


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## SonicTrance

baronbeehive said:


> I look forward to seeing how the all balanced design of Sonic's other new build amp, the "Citadel" I believe, can improve yet on this Oblivion amp!


Citadel will sound a bit cleaner. Like MrCurwen said, the SE input stage in Oblivion gives the amp some of the old tube sound. In Citadel that’s completely removed. I wouldn’t call one better than the other. It’s a matter of taste. Citadel is more complicated to build and requires a larger chassis too.


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## SonicTrance (Mar 23, 2019)

MrCurwen said:


> Some (not a lot) more power could be had, but I myself haven't had need for it.


There’s no more needed. The EL81’s are biased at -23Vg, 180Va, 17.5mA Ia. B+ is 350V. If I bias any hotter than that would require larger heat sinks and more powerful fan. Just wasted heat anyway.


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## Maxx134

MrCurwen said:


> Did you try this amp with speakers? What were your impressions, how good was the power output?


I haven't as I had been moving location but everyone keeps asking me so I will try and post in reserved post.


baronbeehive said:


> The only downside I can see…. no more tube rolling... well I wasn't really into that anyway...honest!!


Tube rolling is highly addictive and expensive hobby, and once you own expensive tubes its hard to et them go! lol.
I prefer the very lightly done aspect of this amp driver stage which is barely noticeable. 


SonicTrance said:


> Citadel will sound a bit cleaner. Like MrCurwen said, the SE input stage in Oblivion gives the amp some of the old tube sound. In Citadel that’s completely removed. I wouldn’t call one better than the other. It’s a matter of taste. Citadel is more complicated to build and requires a larger chassis too.


Good point. At this current level of transparency, the elimination of the very slight driver tube coloring (without loosing tube attributes) would amount to a "preference" type choice.
Let me know if you want post anything in my reserved post . I'll probably put future links there .


SonicTrance said:


> There’s no more needed. The EL81’s are biased at -23Vg, 180Va, 17.5mA Ia. B+ is 350V. If I bias any hotter than that would require larger heat sinks and more powerful fan. Just wasted heat anyway.


I have noticed it stayed cool in AC room, but got warm in my room after a few hours. 
Agreed about the power. The only headphone that extra power would be beneficial for is the Susvara. This amp did very well with it regardless, 
I forgot to mention the fan it has is running silent and well controlled.


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## SonicTrance

Maxx134 said:


> have noticed it stayed cool in AC room, but got warm in my room after a few hours.
> Agreed about the power. The only headphone that extra power would be beneficial for is the Susvara. This amp did very well with it regardless,
> I forgot to mention the fan it has is running silent and well controlled.


Yeah, it gets warm and that's ok. Less heat is always good though. I've chosen a large 200mm fan that's very silent just to get the air moving inside the amp. Silent is key here for me.


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## joseph69

Does the Citadel at $1600.00 USD share the same aesthetics as the Oblivion?


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## SonicTrance

joseph69 said:


> Does the Citadel at $1600.00 USD share the same aesthetics as the Oblivion?


The prizes mentioned above are only for Oblivion. Citadel cost $400 more, so $1850 stock or $2000 with speaker outputs and selector switch.

But yes, the aesthetics will be the same but with a 100mm deaper chassis. I'll most likely use octal tubes in Citadel (EL36 and 6SL7)


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## Maxx134 (Apr 18, 2019)

Hey guys I have been meaning to update with some more comments on usage with TOTL headphones.

I brought my Oblivion amp to test with Susvara a week or so ago..
We also tested it against some speaker amps.


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## joseph69

Maxx134 said:


> Hey guys I have been meaning to update with some more comments on usage with TOTL headphones.
> I brought my Oblivion amp to test with Susvara a week or so ago..
> We also tested it against some speaker amps.


And?


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## Maxx134 (Apr 19, 2019)

Ok, so here are my subjective observations..
Sometimes I write like its set in stone, but I don't mean to be that way.
 I enjoy much gear and yet I never had any troubles coming to conclusions on gear and thats why I write in the wat I do.
Its important to note that opinions would vary due to real differences in everyone's ear shape & canal.
My subjective opinions are usually always in line with general consensus of threads over time.
Therfore I am quite confident in my assessment yet I just want to stress that it is still my "humble" opinions as I usually tread on controversial topics as I reach my points..

 Most "headphone" amps will show their distortion on the Susvara rather easily, if you just blast them past the volume dial's halfway point.

No one usually does this, but its easy for the Susvara to show the headroom weakness of an amp, by going into this "uncharted area" that most amps don't go. .

I have done this with a few top headphone amps at the last Canjam with the Susvara, in order to guage a specific amps headroom and also "how" it handles and sounds with such a load.

They all pretty much started to fail past at 2/3 of their max volume with the Susvara.
Even the nicer ones (like the sweet violectric Niimbus) succumbed to this deficiency.
To balance this subjective point, normal listening levels were usually at least halfway point on most headphone amps with Susvara.

The amps also sound different when pushed to max volume (distortion)on a Susvara..

This was an _unscientific_, but very effective and simple test to do.(quick blast with Susvara)

And lets get it stated that almost ALL "headphone amps"  _will_ run out of gas on the Susvera at high volumes.
This is why many users feel a speaker amp is more ideal.

So enough blabbering right?
How did the Oblivion do?

The same strong points of this amp still prevailed.
The authoritive soundstage, and especially clarity was its strong point, and surprisingly way past normal volumes.
Not half, not 2/3, not even at 3/4 volume turned from max volume. There was there no sign of stress.

The Susvara was handled excellently, and the headphone did not get the better of the amp(!) when past halfway point.

On most headphone amps it was so easy to hear and describe the distortion at high volumes.
Not so easy on this amp.
The oddity of this amp is the lack of distortion, and the effect at higher volumes.
You had to go _past 90% of the volume, _to notice the _type _of effect it has on the sound.
It sounded as if the bass impact stopped short of its fullness of hit, like a slight soft clip,  yet _still_ without any of the normal type of sound of "distortion" you would expect of an amp. No dirty sound. It stayed clean overall.

 Remember this post is meant to be realistic but not practical. Thats why I intentionally forced amps to "real world" maximum volume for observing effects.
 Even if you wanted ear-bleeding, head-banging EQ'd bass, you still wouldn't go past 2/3, let alone 3/4 turn.

At 3/4 turn on the Oblivion with the Susvara, I could blast only for a few seconds as it was too much for my ears.

The main trait of this headphone was the clean quality of the sound.

Ok so what about the speaker amps?
Well, they both could push the Susvara to more scary impacts, but in comparison, I was just very pleased that I felt I didn't need that with the Oblivion amp.
It had enough punch.

So, in the picture, the amp pictured below sounded really sweet with Susvara. Dam nice.
It was a BK ST-140 ( old school amp), yet the Oblivion had _more clarity_ and soundstage (its strong point).

The other amp I listened to that day, was an integrated speaker amp, that IMHO is one of the best ever made, a PASS LABS INT-150, which I feel is the best SS amp I have ever heard, and the only one rivaling any & all amps in clarity, realism and even  soundstage(!)...

So in comparison, the Oblivion held itself to be in same catagory of realism, clarity, soundstage, just less power on tap.

The PASS amp was simply  majestic in its rendering of effortless power and clarity. It either equaled or was above anything else I have ever heard when using it on the Susvara or HD800.

The only Achilles heel of the PASS amp would be, is the issue of headphones.
A speaker amp will typically work with mainly the Susvara, HE6 & HD800 straight out and best.
Most all other headphones are too sensitive, and so you will hear noise floor with them on a speaker amp.

Thats why for the price, I feel nothing can currently beat the Oblivion amp.
Yes, at $3-4k level and up we have choices, but I still would choose it over all the other amps I mentioned so far (my own preference due to its imaging).
Bottom line, its not easy to beat this amp. ..


----------



## Maxx134 (Apr 20, 2019)

joseph69 said:


> And?


If your using the wo33 (in your profile picture) on a Susvera, I mentioned before it also had a bit more noticeable punch.

So thought it was just more powerful, untill I EQ the Susvera on my Oblivion and heard same impact yet with volume turned up higher, so it is both a power and tube altering difference for the wa33.
Regardless of price I would still pick the Oblivion sonic image.

I am assuming the advantage/strong point the Oblivion has, is in its handling of transients and recovery.

The topology is the advantage.
All manufactures need to focus on the issue of transients and parasitics, in a *similar manner* as MrCurwen has shown.


----------



## joseph69

@Maxx134 
Thank you for your impressions/comparisons. Yes, I'm using the WA33 w/upgraded tubes to power the Susvara, as well as other headphones, and I do enjoy it very much. I never turn the volume past 12:00, I'm usually listening at 11:00 or lower and I'm very satisfied. I do understand that you pushed these amps to their limit for testing, though. I had the opportunity to hear the Susvara on the PL 150 power amp (not INT) thanks to @llamaluv but unfortunately it was much too brief to draw any conclusions between it and the WA33 because my main priority was to listen to the SR1a/PL which is what I did. I would love to give the Citadel a listen for myself one day in comparison to my WA33, especially due to their price differences.


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## llamaluv (Apr 19, 2019)

I also liked Maxx134's Oblivion on the Susvara when we listened to it alongside my WA33. I didn't listen to it long or closely enough to form strong enough opinions compared to the WA33 (in part due to my own psychological resistance to doing so?!  ). But I liked what I heard.

I'm starting to warm up to the hybrid amp topology and wouldn't mind another listen with the Oblivion, as well as some other hybrid amps. Similarly, I'm liking the combination of a tube pre-amp with a solid-state power amp. Best-of-both-worlds kind of arrangement...


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## SonicTrance

llamaluv said:


> Similarly, I'm liking the combination of a tube pre-amp with a solid-state power amp. Best-of-both-worlds kind of arrangement...


I can build Oblivion and Citadel with pre-amp outputs as well, no problem.


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## Maxx134 (Apr 20, 2019)

llamaluv said:


> I'm starting to warm up to the hybrid amp topology and wouldn't mind another listen with the Oblivion, as well as some other hybrid amps. Similarly, I'm liking the combination of a tube pre-amp with a solid-state power amp. Best-of-both-worlds kind of arrangement


Hi.
Thanks to member @llamaluv for initial testing with Susvara.
It was later in other friend's setups with Susvara I put the Oblivion to the test.

Also, to respond to that idea quoted,
I used to think that in the general, (about using a tube preamp) as it does make sense, but the truth is, most equipment is still not optimally implemented.

They just throw a tube circuit in the middle for "tube distortion"  and looks..
You would be surprised at how many do this.

In contrast, this amp, and the hybrid amp thread previous to this thread shows, if a circuit is not using the tubes specifically for voltage and the "solid state"  for current, its not an ideal hybrid design.

Also the ideal usage of CCS & Gyrators is what gives this amp the quick recovery & transients, to perform as if it was a higher wattage amp.

The other parts of the design (like "parafeed" part of the  topology) is not uncommon but the _*implementation of *_it_* , *_in a way to reduce the parts parasitics, is also key to this design.

I am sure SonicTrance or MrCurwen can elaborate better, but I cannot understate this point.
 That is what truly differentiates this amp from common tube amp designs, or common hybrid designs.

The electronics market is slow to modernize and most amps you see, (even in the multi-thousand dollar level) are still using old school topology, which consequentially relys very  heavily on parts quality.
You can't get around this on current tube designs.
They are still following old school topologies.
You see it everywhere and upgrades will cost you more.
Name a tube amp brand now, and you'll see it's old school design.
This is also why you will hear nothing but crickets from competitors because they know this.

Eventually the market will come around, but in the meantime, this amp has turned out to be the most optimal implementation.

If you have been following the previous modern amp  thread, or even the LittleDot Mk6/MK8 super mod thread, you would know that I was not a believer in this type of topology at all.
I was a stubborn believer of old school designs.
There is a stigma in the tube camp where oldtimers feel a need four purest tube design without Solid State.
I also had this belief system.
And it is true, most hybrid designs are done poorly..

So It was only until I was able to test it and hear it for myself. At first I was in heavy denial that this amp could sound as good as the amps next to it (at the time they were very expensive).


It actually took some time for my mind and denial to accept the fact what I was hearing.
I wasn't even planning to hold onto this amp at all.
I was only supposed to inspect, review, and then ship it off.

So in summary, this is the first implementation that I feel is done right, only because I myself was able to confirm _through comparison_.


----------



## baronbeehive (Apr 20, 2019)

Very interesting test of the amp using max volume to check on the amps response to heavy loads and consequent distortion, clipping and so on, glad your brain survived this rather extreme rash experiment Maxx!I have not tried this, since using earbuds a while ago I never listen at high volumes any more, the only time I did was accidently when the max volume setting on an amp I had was also the setting for change from amp to DAC and I forgot this when I switched over. Fortunately my ears loss of blood was minimal and the effect on my headphone drivers was not terminal.

You certainly know no boundaries when it comes to testing lol.

It is testament to the ingenious design that it holds its own against other more high powered competition, due to the clever way in designing parts to work together in just the right way that some would not think of doing. It appears that whatever you throw at this amp it is equal to the task. In any case it appears that the amp has more than enough power from what you say.

Are you able to do a test using it as a speaker amp, this would be interesting to me?I realize this is outside your normal listening method.

Sonic, a small point but the only thing I would say is are you able to put the meters on the front side instead of the top?


----------



## SonicTrance

baronbeehive said:


> Sonic, a small point but the only thing I would say is are you able to put the meters on the front side instead of the top?


I can but then I can not use those nice big meters. Id have to use small ones like in the Little dot MK6.


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## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> I can but then I can not use those nice big meters. Id have to use small ones like in the Little dot MK6.



OK!

Another question, I know you have similar speakers to me, although your headphones are not similar, how do you rate the sound from speakers compared to headphones with the Oblivion. People assume that headphones are generally superior but the sound I get from my speaker amp and the LD is very similar in general terms - soundstage, resolution etc. so I can change from one to the other without any lack of enjoyment.


----------



## Articnoise

Any pictures and spec of the Citadel?


----------



## joseph69

I believe I had visited a website for the Oblivion by SonicStudios but I can't seem to find it, all I keep coming up with is this thread and recording studios. Am I mistaken in thinking I visited a site for SonicStudios? If not, @SonicTrance would you mind posting or sending me the link in a PM, please? As I've mentioned before, I'd be interested in the Citadel being I run a fully balanced system.

Thank you


----------



## SonicTrance

baronbeehive said:


> OK!
> 
> Another question, I know you have similar speakers to me, although your headphones are not similar, how do you rate the sound from speakers compared to headphones with the Oblivion. People assume that headphones are generally superior but the sound I get from my speaker amp and the LD is very similar in general terms - soundstage, resolution etc. so I can change from one to the other without any lack of enjoyment.


My small monitor audio speakers dont have the same sound quality as my Audeze headphones regardless of amp. I do have a pair of Yamaha floorstanders as well and I think Oblivion/Citadel drives them very good! It's always different to listen through speakers rather then headphones though. It depends on the mood which I prefer.


----------



## SonicTrance

Articnoise said:


> Any pictures and spec of the Citadel?


Sorry, no pics yet as I have not built one for costumers yet. My personal amp is Citadel circuit but in a different chassis. The ones I build for customers will look like Oblivion but 100mm deeper chassis.

What specs do you want? Tubes in Citadel will be 6SL7 and 6P31S (EL36). Citadel will have higher gain than Oblivion, otherwise the specs are the same.


----------



## SonicTrance

joseph69 said:


> I believe I had visited a website for the Oblivion by SonicStudios but I can't seem to find it, all I keep coming up with is this thread and recording studios. Am I mistaken in thinking I visited a site for SonicStudios? If not, @SonicTrance would you mind posting or sending me the link in a PM, please? As I've mentioned before, I'd be interested in the Citadel being I run a fully balanced system.
> 
> Thank you


Sorry, I don’t have a website, yet. You must have visited something else. If you’re interested send me a PM.


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## joseph69

SonicTrance said:


> Sorry, I don’t have a website, yet. You must have visited something else. If you’re interested send me a PM.


I must have visited a review of the Oblivion and though I'd seen a site, my  mistake.


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## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> The electronics market is slow to modernize and most amps you see, (even in the multi-thousand dollar level) are still using old school topology, which consequentially relys very  heavily on parts quality.
> You can't get around this on current tube designs.
> They are still following old school topologies.



Just a thought but that must be something to do with the fact that most amps have a Chinese or similar origin, ripped off from our old treasured 50's designed amps. Things will really get going when they start to innovate rather than copy.



Maxx134 said:


> There is a stigma in the tube camp where oldtimers feel a need four purest tube design without Solid State.
> I also had this belief system.
> And it is true, most hybrid designs are done poorly..



Yes, but I feel it is not wrong to use the right topology for the right reason, that is to go for top level sonics, and why wouldn't you use hybrid in that case, unless of course you just want to get the best "tube sound", if that is what you are in to.


----------



## SonicTrance

baronbeehive said:


> unless of course you just want to get the best "tube sound", if that is what you are in to.


I prefer my amp to be transparent, fast and detailed while keeping the holographic soundstage. Not slow and goey "tube sound".


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## Maxx134 (Apr 22, 2019)

SonicTrance said:


> I prefer my amp to be transparent, fast and detailed while keeping the holographic soundstage. Not slow and goey "tube sound".


What I notice on the "tube  only"  amps, is that most of the tube sound seems to be after the initial transient.
The thicker harmonics and decay.

Also what was surprising was how (because of the traditional tube designs) significant the capacitors played a part in the sound of those other amps.
It was a pain to have to worry about the capacitors as much as the tubes.

As an example, I  went thru at least three brands of cathode caps when upgrading the EC Aficionado to get most transparent sound.
And that wasn't even dealing with the larger choice of coupling caps.
In the end I resorted to the stock choice brand, at a higher voltag ratings for upgrading.

So you see other traditional designs rely heavily on designer experience to get all the "ingredients" to play nice together.
Its not as simple as some "Splice" circuit simulation, for most tube circuit designs.

In contrast, see this hybrid  design (in these new amps) as forcing all the parts to "behave" in the real world, as in a circuit simulation.


----------



## halcyon

Maxx134 said:


> Oblivion | UltraSonic Studios
> Builder: @SonicTrance
> Schematic designer: @MrCurwen



Very interesting. Any plans on getting the unit objectively measured and posting the results? Yes, the proof is in the pudding (sound), but as a hobbyist it is always also interesting to see the measurements.


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## SonicTrance (Apr 24, 2019)

halcyon said:


> Very interesting. Any plans on getting the unit objectively measured and posting the results? Yes, the proof is in the pudding (sound), but as a hobbyist it is always also interesting to see the measurements.


You mean THD and frequency response? Not really. I was thinking about buying some test gear to test THD but I don't know. I can measure frequency response though just by measuring the output amplitude and vary the input frequency. It's dead flat from 400Hz and up and varies some (not much) under 400Hz. I haven't made any nice graphs for you to look at though.
But I agree it would be interesting!


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## Maxx134 (Apr 24, 2019)

halcyon said:


> Very interesting. Any plans on getting the unit objectively measured and posting the results? Yes, the proof is in the pudding (sound), but as a hobbyist it is always also interesting to see the measurements.


there is no other proof in the pudding for me.
Most amplifier measurements mean nothing to the average buyer.
That plus it is doctored to look good anyways.
Also,
Whatever measurements you can get from this amplifier will easily "look" superior to most tube amps, simply because of the harmonic distortion in tubes, in comparison to this hybrid.

Normal measurements will not tell you anything.
Many amplifiers post basic run-of-the-mill measurements which tell you nothing.

If anything, a more fair or worthy comparison would be to check another hybrid or solid state amp.
Then get the same  measurements it has listed.
So thats were SonicTrance  could look, if he wanted.

 What specific measurement did you want to focus on?
And from which amp has any posted?

As far as Im concerned, my methodology of comparison is final proof for me.
Those that want to look at numbers that's their prerogative. To each his own.

Of greater interest would be for me, the measurements involved on the topology.
How it all works.


----------



## Thenewguy007

How many watts into 300ohms does it put out?


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## SonicTrance

Thenewguy007 said:


> How many watts into 300ohms does it put out?


I haven't measured that. Its about 1.5w peak into 4 ohms and then gradually lower power output with easier loads (higher impedance loads). Both Oblivion and Citadel have low output impedance of a few ohms. I can assure you that it has no problem driving 300 ohm headphones. People are reporting great things with HD800 for example.

If youre really interested I can do some measurements at 300 ohm loads?


----------



## Thenewguy007

Well I was wonder how loud the volume can be for the HD800 to max it out.

Would it the volume knob be at max for that or would it be at the 12 O'clock  or 3 O'clock positions etc..?


----------



## SonicTrance

Thenewguy007 said:


> Well I was wonder how loud the volume can be for the HD800 to max it out.
> 
> Would it the volume knob be at max for that or would it be at the 12 O'clock  or 3 O'clock positions etc..?


If you have the volume knob anywhere past 12 o'clock your ears would not be happy using those headphones. 

You mean gain, not power. 
Gain is how much you have to turn the volume knob to reach a certain volume, i.e. how much the amp amplifies.

Power is how much clean signal headroom you have before the amp starts to clip and distort. 
So, an amp with more gain and same power output will clip sooner on the volume dail if that makes sense?


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## Maxx134 (Apr 29, 2019)

Good idea. I will get out my HD800 tonight hopefully and let you know.
I remember it pushing the LCD3 very loud before midway, so the question is how loud can you handle it.

Also, 
New pics of production versions on second post of first page.


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## Thenewguy007 (Apr 29, 2019)

I'm not familiar with the tubes, but are any of them drop in replacements like EL84, 6h30p or 6922 tubes?
Just in case someone wants to do a wider assortment of tube rolling?


----------



## SonicTrance

Thenewguy007 said:


> I'm not familiar with the tubes, but are any of them drop in replacements forEL84, 6h30p or 6922 tubes?
> Just in case someone wants to do a wider assortment of tube rolling?


There’s no tube rolling in these amps other than different makes of the same tube type. As long as the tubes are in good health, with linear curves, you should not notice a big difference when rolling tubes with this topology. The cheapest tubes sounds as good as expensive audiophile tubes in this circuit.


----------



## Benny-x

I hope this isn't a shithead question, but I was wondering if anyone could share how the internal VU meter buffer amps and DC supplies were implemented?

I am building a pre-amp now based on Bent Audio AVC-1, passive autoformers  + the relevant PCBs  and I want to add a pair of Hoyt, 3.5” VU meters, but that means I need to add and figure where/how to add buffer amps for the meter signal and DC supplies for the buffers. 

I know that's totally off topic, but I've been following you guys in the old Littledot thread since the beginning and now here, and hope you might be able to share some advice to a novice DIiYer like me.


----------



## SonicTrance

Benny-x said:


> I hope this isn't a ****head question, but I was wondering if anyone could share how the internal VU meter buffer amps and DC supplies were implemented?
> 
> I am building a pre-amp now based on Bent Audio AVC-1, passive autoformers  + the relevant PCBs  and I want to add a pair of Hoyt, 3.5” VU meters, but that means I need to add and figure where/how to add buffer amps for the meter signal and DC supplies for the buffers.
> 
> I know that's totally off topic, but I've been following you guys in the old Littledot thread since the beginning and now here, and hope you might be able to share some advice to a novice DIiYer like me.


I don’t use VU meters in these amps. The meters measures the bias current of the output tubes. No additional circuit required for that.
I did use VU meters in a couple other amps I built and just used those Chinese driver boards from eBay. As far as DC supply’s you need a separate winding from your PT then rectify and filter it.


----------



## Benny-x

SonicTrance said:


> I don’t use VU meters in these amps. The meters measures the bias current of the output tubes. No additional circuit required for that.
> I did use VU meters in a couple other amps I built and just used those Chinese driver boards from eBay. As far as DC supply’s you need a separate winding from your PT then rectify and filter it.


Haha, I jumped at the shape of them, but should have known they were for bias. 

Thanks for your info. I was recommended this VU meter driver board, but I have no idea whether it's the right/best approach. 

Can you take a look and just let me hear your take on it?
https://www.jlmaudio.com/shop/vu2-stereo-vu-buffer-kit.html?display_tax_prices=1


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## SonicTrance

Benny-x said:


> Haha, I jumped at the shape of them, but should have known they were for bias.
> 
> Thanks for your info. I was recommended this VU meter driver board, but I have no idea whether it's the right/best approach.
> 
> ...


My guess is you're fine with that driver board. The thing is that the output of the board needs to work with the meters. Look at the the meter specs. But you had adjustment trimmers on the board so should be fine.


----------



## Benny-x

I see. I looked up the specs for meters, but I either couldn't translate whatever terminology was being used or the value you mean isn't stated in any reasonably listed way. I think it's the later, as I've really been grinding it out on Google to find that kind of input sensitivity number. 

Anyway, thanks for the help with that. I'll use the trim pots like you said and try to get it all sorted. I'm pumped. 
-------------------------

Back on topic, what's the status of the balanced version of this amp? Will you have an upcoming thread about that or any pics? 

I am going to stretch a guess about the builds, but maybe they're done to order? If so, are there any options about the paint colour(s)? 

The black is straight forward, but a touch of blue or red for the chassis and black for the transformer cover(s) and knobs would serve up some eye candy~


----------



## SonicTrance (May 1, 2019)

Benny-x said:


> Back on topic, what's the status of the balanced version of this amp? Will you have an upcoming thread about that or any pics?
> 
> I am going to stretch a guess about the builds, but maybe they're done to order? If so, are there any options about the paint colour(s)?
> 
> The black is straight forward, but a touch of blue or red for the chassis and black for the transformer cover(s) and knobs would serve up some eye candy~


I understand you mean Citadel when you say the balanced version. Just to be clear though. Oblivion is also balanced output. It's only the input stage that's SE. If someone buys the Citadel I hope they write some impressions here or in a new thread. I'm not allowed to start any such threads. I have a website in the makings though.

Yes, I build to order. We could always discuss different chassis. Nothing is set in stone. As for me painting though, that's too much work, lol.


----------



## Benny-x

SonicTrance said:


> I understand you mean Citadel when you say the balanced version. Just to be clear though. Oblivion is also balanced output. It's only the input stage that's SE. If someone buys the Citadel I hope they write some impressions here or in a new thread. I'm not allowed to start any such threads. I have a website in the makings though.
> 
> Yes, I build to order. We could always discuss different chassis. Nothing is set in stone. As for me painting though, that's too much work, lol.


Yes, I was meaning the Citadel when I mentioned "the balanced version". And yeah, my focus is just one that input stage as all my gear runs balanced and if you didn't have a balanced input stage then I'd need to gear up my own conversion stage from BAL->SE. Not hard, I suppose, and especially so if you take the easy route of just grabbing the hot side of the BAL signal and then terminating to RCA. Anyway, things I'm not interested in focusing on for now as I wanted to ask more about the Citadel. 

I thought the Oblivion chassis looked fine design wise, I just wasn't a total fan of the all black train engine approach. 

In the updated build pictures by Max, there's a knob missing from the front panel. Was this an output select knob? And if it's missing, but the internal parts are the same, then what happened to the speaker taps?


----------



## SonicTrance

Benny-x said:


> In the updated build pictures by Max, there's a knob missing from the front panel. Was this an output select knob? And if it's missing, but the internal parts are the same, then what happened to the speaker taps?


Yes, that second knob on the front is for a selector switch. The speaker outputs are optional. The customer didn’t want them. All other internal parts are the same, yes.


----------



## Thenewguy007

SonicTrance said:


> I understand you mean Citadel when you say the balanced version. Just to be clear though. Oblivion is also balanced output. It's only the input stage that's SE. If someone buys the Citadel I hope they write some impressions here or in a new thread. I'm not allowed to start any such threads. I have a website in the makings though.
> 
> Yes, I build to order. We could always discuss different chassis. Nothing is set in stone. As for me painting though, that's too much work, lol.



Could there be any tweaks or upgrades in a a build?
Like say getting a more boutique transformer, like Lundahl, or possibly setting the amp to accept different tubes, something that might give out more watts for the more hunger planar headphones?


----------



## SonicTrance

Thenewguy007 said:


> Could there be any tweaks or upgrades in a a build?
> Like say getting a more boutique transformer, like Lundahl, or possibly setting the amp to accept different tubes, something that might give out more watts for the more hunger planar headphones?


If you mean a Lundahl power transformer it's a waste of money TBH. At least in these amps. You won't notice any difference in background noise as it's already quiet with the transformer I use. If you mean output transformers then I'm not sure. Maybe some possible sonic improvement but price would go way up of course.

The whole idea with this circuit is to use parts to what they do best in each position. By doing so eliminate the need for "audiophile" parts. So, tube rolling and different coupling caps and so on will not have the affect it has on a traditional circuit. I can build an amp made for tube rolling but it will not sound as good.
I understand that people wanna tube roll. It's fun! I was the same way before MrCurwen introduced me and mentored me with this design. There's no going back now!

These amps can power planar headphones no problem. Maxx used Abyss which is very hard to drive. I could, theoretically, build an amp with more power but the heatsinks required would be massive and I would also need to use a louder fan. I use a 200mm 700rpm fan now that's barely noticeable, just to get the air moving inside the chassis. There's no need for massive wattage headroom in this circuit. I drive my 89db 6 ohm floor standing speakers no problem.

The only option I'm offering ATM is speaker outputs, but I'm open for discussion.


----------



## MrCurwen

As SonicTrance mentioned above, I'll restate as the designer, this circuit was specifically designed to provide high end performance with low end parts. It will not benefit to any significant amount by parts shopping. If you want to shop parts, go another route.

There are some possible improvements, but they are very small. To 99.9% of people they are not worth the money spent in them. If you don't trust my or Sonic's assesment of this, you should listen to the stock version of these amps first, and then think about it again.

I made this design originally just to avoid getting anything but cheap parts. It's the gimmick of this design, the point of it. To see how far you can go with "normal" parts. Turns out you can go beyond "pretty" parts. So why even bother with the pretty parts. Leave them behind.

World will run out of old production 2A3's way sooner than it ever will run out of well made rugged old production EL81's or EL36's or other TV sweep tubes. You'll be well set with those tubes.


----------



## Maxx134 (May 5, 2019)

Thenewguy007 said:


> Could there be any tweaks or upgrades in a a build?
> Like say getting a more boutique transformer, like Lundahl, or possibly setting the amp to accept different tubes, something that might give out more watts for the more hunger planar headphones?


Most stock headphones tube amps are full of compromise and we are expected to deal with it by tube rolling and parts upgrading.
Then we are forced to accept this as norm, while dishing out THOUSANDS for those units...
You become numb of this problem and think it is the norm.

This is unacceptable. We should not have to be expected to have to resort to  upgrade parts and "holy grail" tubes to reach end-game sound.

I can be a fanatic when it comes to upgrades, just look at my LDMK8(!)
  Thi is the first tube amp I can say NEEDS NOTHING..
Which is actually a double edged sword for me, because I had planned to make a big monster tube amp (and you know how overboard I can get with the visuals, lol) but now that plan is put on the shelf because this amp is that good. It is so dam good I feel no need to upgrade. It's sonics are reference quality.

In truth, I expected crickets here for responses, because it is too dam good for it's own existence, and I feel it would slaughter anything under $3k
I would be quietly selling my gear to get this unit.
To me, it is that good.

The only amp I would consider replacing my Oblivion amp is to try the Citadell, or swtich to something I feel is as good which is nothing except an EC Studio, or the specific  Pass speaker amp I mentioned, but they both have the drawbacks of price.

There are also complications.
The speaker amp will have hum on most headphones and would need a speaker box.

The tube amp would be VERY dependant of tube selection and tube age, as it is still an oldschool design.

I avoid ALL those issues with these amps. The performance is rediculous and needs to be heard.
 I would have liked to do a comparison of this amp with a famous hybrid design like the now out of business cavalli amps.
I am pretty sure thier implementation is not like this one either.




SonicTrance said:


> You won't notice any difference in background noise as it's already quiet with the transformer I use.


It was dead, dead quiet even with sensitive headphones...



SonicTrance said:


> These amps can power planar headphones no problem. Maxx used Abyss which is very hard to drive.


I attribute the amps superiority of transient delivery, in making the AbyssPhi sound noticably better than in the other amps tested.
I do not believe differences  would have been so noticable on easier to drive headphones, which reach their limits too early and stay in mid-grade level.
That's why we tested with end-game headphones.



SonicTrance said:


> By doing so eliminate the need for "audiophile" parts. So, tube rolling and different coupling caps and so on will not have the affect it has on a traditional circuit


Tube rolling has the problems of not only affecting tonality, but also dynamics and soundstage.
It truly is better to not have to be burdened with this, while having all the best attributes of tubes.
If I had to pick, I would probably pick the Citadel if I had balanced. It would also eliminate even the slightest  chance of driver stage to affect sound. Although the circuit is optimal and transparent on the Oblivion, there was a ever so tiny difference in driver tube swap. Both tubes I tried were amazing but the stock driver tubes chosen sounded a tiny bit more open.
My guess is that the tubes I swapped were brand new and so would sound different first used, while the stock tubes were also new but "broken in"



SonicTrance said:


> . I use a 200mm 700rpm fan now that's barely noticeable


It is set to run so gently that it is never noticable.



MrCurwen said:


> this circuit was specifically designed to provide high end performance with low end parts


It must not be underestimated how important this is to elevate the real world performance of the amp, wich in my testing proved to rival any headphone amp.




MrCurwen said:


> I made this design originally just to avoid getting anything but cheap parts. It's the gimmick of this design, the point of it. To see how far you can go with "normal" parts. Turns out you can go beyond "pretty" parts. So why even bother with the pretty parts. Leave them behind.


This is an enigma. Most designers see a circuit in a program like "splice" and think it will behave as intended in real life.
In reality they do not.
Your design approach instead differs from traditional approaches by paying attention to different circuit behavior that I haven't seen.
What you explain as parasitics and transients and the way the tubes are implemented are unique as no other tube amp I seen.
You are being humble to say the word "gimmick" , and a more accurate description would be "innovative  approach".




MrCurwen said:


> World will run out of old production 2A3's way sooner than it ever will run out of well made rugged old production EL81's or EL36's or other TV sweep tubes. You'll be well set with those tubes.


I agree, and believe this is because the market has been fooled into thinking that they need to rely on a certain tube for best sound.
The best tube sound is actually is no tube sound at all.
Just their benefits of dimensionality and soundstage preservation, which is what we have here with these amps.


----------



## Maxx134

Most consumers will not know what a CCS or a gyrator is and how it was implemented in this design.
Also I have seen some companies make a big deal out of usage like one nicknaming such an added circuit as a "speedball" option.
I think a link to the other DIY thread of SonicTrance would help those understand this topology:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/modern-balanced-tube-amp-build.852879/


----------



## baronbeehive (May 6, 2019)

Maxx134 said:


> Which is actually a double edged sword for me, because I had planned to make a big monster tube amp_* (and you know how overboard I can get with the visuals, lol)*_



NO, NEVER, NO WAY LOL!



Thenewguy007 said:


> Could there be any tweaks or upgrades in a a build?
> Like say getting a more boutique transformer, like Lundahl, or possibly setting the amp to accept different tubes, something that might give out more watts for the more hunger planar headphones?



I agree with Maxx here.

You are falling into the same trap that we all used to fall into, namely that power is overridingly important. Actually there are different approaches to the problem of power delivery, for example, more than enough power, balanced power, regulated power, decoupling for power reservoirs etc etc. What is important depending on the design is to have power of around 1 watt and then to address the problem of fluctuating power from transient depletion and parasitics. I think most designs approach this from the other way round. If this can be achieved as efficiently as possible that is the problem addressed.

From my understanding and from Maxx's review this amp will drive anything without so much as batting an eyelid, he will correct me if I'm wrong. What has bee achieved here is a real understanding of the intricacies of the circuit and the functioning of the components within that circuit so that they all function together optimally. If any of the parameters were to be changed then the same components would probably not work so effectively, for example I seriously doubt that this design would work with much higher power because that goes against the design goals of just enough good clean power, efficient recovery, low parasitics and open loops. If more power was used that would introduce a whole set of new problems to deal with, and which would necessitate a different design. This is the real achievement in this particular design as I understand it. Since this has been achieved on stock parts there is no need to upgrade whatsoever, indeed that may not be a good idea because the circuit has been designed with the components in mind.

My friend has a tube amp with only a few watts to drive floorstanders, and the power beyond about a quarter to is totally deafening, massive overkill.

So at a stroke no more worries about tube rolling etc. that's very welcome indeed as far as I'm concerned!


----------



## SonicTrance

MrCurwen said:


> I made this design originally just to avoid getting anything but cheap parts.


I'd like to point out though that I'm not using the cheapest parts available. I use NOS Russian film caps, Nichicon 125C electrolytics and ohmite power resistors. Still not boutique parts of course but optimal for its job and high quality. That's what's important.


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## Maxx134 (May 6, 2019)

baronbeehive said:


> What is important depending on the design is to have power of around 1 watt and then to address the problem of fluctuating power


Also of note, is that speaker amps that push out many watts only give up to 1-3watts in class A, before the less desirable class A/B kicks in.
The initial class A section is the most desirable and effective area of use, so it is the actual spec to look for, when looking into amps, especially speaker amps.


----------



## Maxx134 (May 7, 2019)

MrCurwen said:


> Turns out you can go beyond "pretty" parts.


Before you came with this design, this idea of parts quality "NOT"  affecting the circuit was pretty alien to me, and probably most people.
Traditional tube designs are all still very dependant upon parts quality, or parts adding sound, or as you call it, "parasitics".



SonicTrance said:


> I'd like to point out though that I'm not using the cheapest parts available. I use NOS Russian film caps, Nichicon 125C electrolytics and ohmite power resistors. Still not boutique parts of course but optimal for its job and high quality. That's what's important.


From my own research, I can name the brands of caps that are responsible for the "house sound"  of a few top amps not even mentioned here, which would be an embarrassment to them.

The "parts quality" sound is the result of the "parasitics" term MrCurwen used.
There is no avoiding this on traditional designs, and, as far as I can see, most designs in general seem to compound this already sad issue, by making even more compromise by cost cutting (due to competition).

So none I seen, take on this approach of these new amps here, to adress "parasitics".
Normal designs, and the software used to make them  simply are not addressing this issue.

This is why we hear of effects  like "mosfet mist" or thermal noise, or oscillations or various types of sound from different film caps, or other types of parts quality sound when  replacing them.

Designers that follow these circuit designs do not take into account these effect results.
None are designing for the  avoidance of these "parasitics" to affect the circuit.
Designers seem to have accepted as the norm, that we must accept the inherent flaws which happen in real world usage, and so rely on parts quality.

This is one BIG reason which sets this amplifier apart from the rest.
But there are two more issues that effectively push this amp into the performance level it is at.
Power delivery, and transients.

The issue of power, which is  usually not efficiently implemented, and consensus of how many watts stated in "spec sheets"  doesn't really alude to the actual performance, which is not only about how many "clean" class A watts, but how much the PSU  hampers delivery and responds to demand to feed the circuits.

In contrast, the focus of this design offsets the need for huge expensive power supplies (which can still be "slow")...
Remember, the largest cost of amplifiers is usually because of the traditional PSU section.
So the modernization of this area is a HUGE plus.
Both the effectiveness and the delivery of power is benifited.

Also, the placement and implementation of CCS & gyrators in the circuit, enabling  the focus on "transients"  delivery, was not only an effective solution for power demands, but had a real world effect on performance.

It gave the amp a type of dynamic delivery that I was reminded of when I listened to a Viva amp.
It was this main trait, IMO, that proved to be the critical reason why the demanding Abyss Phi behaved the most lively on this amp, and was also able to "wake up" the Susvara enough to perform similarly to using a speaker amp.

Speaker amps makes the Susvera climb higher to become more responsive, but not all sound clear.
You need a real TOTL speaker amp to have clarity as well as power.

Currently, my Oblivion model is my reference amp to compare to others, kind of like my yggy used to be my reference point to compare to other Dacs, but I since moved on from original  yggy(A board), to a very slight more immersive/lively performance in same realism level, with the Holo Spring Dac.

Both the Holo & the Dave share a similar aspect of slight  liveliness/immersion over yggy(A), but not better in realism as they are all at similar level.
I have not compared latest yggy(B) to the Holo, only to yggy(A) even though I have access to do so and should.
I still like the yggy just as much though, and expect comparisons to yggy(B) to be more accurate overall, but at this high a level, I would consider all four just a preference choice because the realism is still there.
Sorry for tangent on Dacs.


----------



## SonicTrance

Here're some initial impressions of Oblivion from a customer using LCD-4 and HD800. He'll probably add something later as well.



> I’ve been listening to the amplifier using the LCD4s most of the time with just a couple of listens with the HD800s.
> 
> The overall impression is one of the fullness and richness of the sound which I have never felt before. The soundstage is large and I just feel totally immersed in the music. Obviously the LCD4s have a wonderfully deep and impactful bass and the Oblivion just brings this out even more. The detail is there and the mid-range, which is very important to me in music, is so real, natural and full. There is real dynamic punch, but also such a balanced sound.
> 
> My early impressions after only a brief couple of sessions with the HD800s is that the clarity, detail and huge soundstage are all very much evident, but the Oblivion adds a warmth and mellow quality that can easily be lacking with these very revealing headphones. I have always enjoyed listening to classical, acoustic and jazz music with the HD800s, but there has been a danger of some music being too harsh with them. The Oblivion pairs really well with the headphones and adds enjoyment to the detailed and analytical experience.


----------



## Gethyn (May 13, 2019)

SonicTrance said:


> Here're some initial impressions of Oblivion from a customer using LCD-4 and HD800. He'll probably add something later as well.



Well that would me me! I recently bought an Oblivion amplifier from SonicTrance and have had time to listen to a variety of music using my Audeze LCD4 and Sennheiser HD800 headphones. I am somewhat in awe of the members here with technical knowledge and an understanding of circuitry, sound, electronics, etc. My feedback (I would never dare to call it a review!) will be as someone who loves music and simply knows what they like without being able to necessarily explain why.

I'll start with a potted history as this may help members understand where I'm coming from, and perhaps what appeals to me, sonically.

I have enjoyed listening to music through headphones since I was a teenager and I remember my first pair - Sennheiser HD414 - giving me so much pleasure. I subsequently bought a pair of Sennheiser HD580s which I kept for almost 20 years. A few years ago I decided to upgrade the HD580s and in a matter of a couple of years went through a number of headphones.

Headphones:

Beyerdynamic T90. Initially loved them, perhaps because they were very different from the HD580s, but soon their bright and sibilant character became too much for me. (I had previously tried Grados and also found them to be overly harsh/bright sounding).

AKG Q701. Very enjoyable, comfortable, but I knew I wanted something 'better'.

Philips X2. Fun, lively, good soundstage, but still not end game.

Audeze LCD 2.2 (pre fazor). I'll never forget the moment I first heard these and I knew this was the sound I was after! Full, rich bass, wonderful mids, enough detail and clarity, but with none of the sibilance of the Grado/Beyerdynamics. They also allowed me to kick back and just enjoy the music without having to analyse it or concentrate too much.

Sennheiser HD800. As much as I loved the LCD2s for rock, soul, vocals, etc. they lacked the clarity, soundstage and sparkle that I wanted for classical, jazz and some acoustic music (my musical taste is eclectic). The HD800s filled this gap perfectly and, with the right amplifier - I'm getting to that! - gave the detail and soundstage that I felt the Audezes lacked, but without the treble spike that others had criticised them for.

Audeze LCD3. A smoother and more refined sound than the LCD2s and for a while I kept both pairs, not knowing which to sell. An advert in the local classifieds made the decision for me . . .

Audeze LCD4. I couldn't resist a virtually brand new pair for half price! They are more refined than the LCD2s with a smoother bass, richer mids and added detail. The LCD2s are more fun, but for serious listening the LCD4s are everything I want for rock, soul, vocals, etc.

I now have two pairs of stunning headphones which complement each other perfectly - LCD4 and HD800 - and I cannot believe that I will ever change them.

For years I had driven my headphones from the headphone output of my amps (Audiolab 8000Q, Peachtree Nova, Naim DAC-V1), but when I bought my first Audeze headphones I started to look for a dedicated headphone amplifier. I also tried running a balanced set-up for the first time.

Amplifiers:

Trafomatic Audio Experience Head One. I loved this amplifier with the HD800s and regret selling it. It was compact, beautifully made, lovely to look at and the sound was full and rich, adding some welcome warmth to the Sennheisers. It was perhaps a bit too warm for the Audezes though so not ideal for my needs.

Woo Audio WA3. I'm not sure if there was something wrong with mine, but it just never sounded very good and I sold it very quickly. Not much more I can say about it.

Bryston BHA-1. My first balanced set-up. This worked very well with both headphones and the balanced set-up gave a wider and fuller soundstage and a feeling of space to the music. It was dynamic and had plenty of power to drive the LCD4s (no mean feat). However, I was not convinced that the Bryston sounded any better than my portable equipment . . .

I have a PW AK120 (similar to the RWAK120) with balanced output to an RSA SR71b amplifier. I bought balanced cables for the HD800 and LCD4 headphones and this small set-up drove both headphones perfectly and in back-to-back listening tests I really couldn't hear any difference between this and running them from the Bryston and my main system. I eventually sold the Bryston and just used my portable gear when listening through headphones. It did seem ridiculous to own two reference level headphones and run them from a portable set-up so I decided to once again explore a dedicated headphone amplifier. Phew!

The Oblivion:

I play music from files on a hard drive as well as hi res audio from Tidal, running through Audirvana on a dedicated Mac Mini. I have a Teddy Pardo audio system so use a Teddy USB cable to the Teddy DAC then to the PR1 pre-amp and then to the Oblivion amplifier using RCA cables. I have inexpensive custom made balanced XLR cables for both pairs of headphones.

HD800. I have the volume at 12 o'clock most of the time. To some extent the Oblivion brings the sound of the HD800s closer to that of the LCD4s and I mean this in a good way. They retain the clarity, detail and soundstage that I want for the kind of music I use them for, but the Oblivion adds some warmth, taming the occasionally bright treble in a similar way that I experienced with the Trafomatic. I can perhaps best sum it up by saying that the sound is no longer clinical, but more natural whilst not losing any of the detail. There is more heft or body to the music and it definitely sounds richer. With the Oblivion I could easily imagine having the HD800s as my only headphone or perhaps adding a cheaper planar headphone for kicking back and enjoying rock, pop, etc. I still prefer using the HD800s for classical, acoustic and jazz music, but I can also happily use them for other genres too.

LCD4. I have the volume between 1 and 2 o'clock for most listening. The Oblivion seems to enhance all of the best qualities of the LCD4s whilst drawing out some that were perhaps a little hidden previously. The bass is tight, full and natural with no unnecessary or added punch beyond what is already in the music. I love mids in music, especially vocals and The Oblivion/LCD4 combo delivers this in spades. It is hard to describe this without resorting to cliche, but the mids are natural, warm and rich and the sound envelops you as you listen. What the Oblivion adds is an increased soundstage and level of detail that I haven't previously heard. There is space between and around the instruments. I find myself literally moving my head from side to side to 'see' where the instrument is and where the sound is coming from! I feel totally immersed in the music and I cannot believe that sound could get any better, at least not for my taste and the way that I like to listen.

I am very fortunate to be able to indulge myself in this hobby and since buying the headphones and now the amplifier, I have started to listen to music as frequently as I used to years ago. I hope my thoughts might be of use to some of you. I have benefited from reading the posts of other members over the years and I have been meaning to write something to give a little back. Purchasing the Oblivion and - I hope - completing my system has given me the motivation to set down some of my thoughts.

Finally I would like to thank SonicTrance and Maxx134 who have been very helpful, answering my questions and giving open and honest views about the Oblivion amplifier and comparisons with similar products from other manufacturers.


----------



## baronbeehive

Always interesting to hear from new members!



Gethyn said:


> Sennheiser HD800. As much as I loved the LCD2s for rock, soul, vocals, etc. they lacked the clarity, soundstage and sparkle that I wanted for classical, jazz and some acoustic music (my musical taste is eclectic). The HD800s filled this gap perfectly and, with the right amplifier - I'm getting to that! - gave the detail and soundstage that I felt the Audezes lacked, but without the treble spike that others had criticised them for.



This brightness is exactly my issue with the Sennheisers and so your impressions are interesting.



Gethyn said:


> I play music from files on a hard drive as well as hi res audio from Tidal, running through Audirvana on a dedicated Mac Mini. I have a Teddy Pardo audio system so use a Teddy USB cable to the Teddy DAC then to the PR1 pre-amp and then to the Oblivion amplifier using RCA cables. I have inexpensive custom made balanced XLR cables for both pairs of headphones.



Have you tried the Oblivion without the Preamp? There is a debate about the merits of preamping in audio circles so I wonder if you have tried it? I used to use one but no longer think it necessary.


----------



## Maxx134 (Jun 2, 2019)

Gethyn said:


> The Oblivion seems to enhance all of the best qualities of the LCD4s whilst drawing out some that were perhaps a little hidden previously. The bass is tight, full and natural with no unnecessary or added punch beyond what is already in the music. I love mids in music, especially vocals and The Oblivion/LCD4 combo delivers this in spades. It is hard to describe this without resorting to cliche, but the mids are natural, warm and rich and the sound envelops you as you listen. What the Oblivion adds is an increased soundstage and level of detail that I haven't previously heard.
> There is space between and around the instruments. I find myself literally moving my head from side to side to 'see' where the instrument is and where the sound is coming from! I feel totally immersed in the music and I cannot believe that sound could get any better, at least not for my taste and the way that I like to listen.


I like to state this aspect and ability of the amp is not to be underestimated.
Retaining full tube holographic imaging on a hybrid is very unique.
The solid-state aspect of this design ends up solidifying the image to be one of the most accurate presentations I heard yet.
Remember in my review how I irrespective of the realism, the soundstage accuracy can still be skewed in other top amps.
This amp gets it precise while at same time solves the issues of "parts"  dependancy,  that plagues basically ALL other tube designs so far...
They ALL still depend on parts quality to effect their sound...
This amp design makes "parts"  upgrading practically obsolete (!). This is the aspect that is a game changer.
As the designer says "parasitics" of the components are avoided.


----------



## Gethyn

baronbeehive said:


> Always interesting to hear from new members!
> 
> Have you tried the Oblivion without the Preamp? There is a debate about the merits of preamping in audio circles so I wonder if you have tried it? I used to use one but no longer think it necessary.



I replied to this a week or so ago, but it doesn't seem to have registered. No matter . . .

I did actually try to use the Oblivion without the pre-amp, but couldn't get a signal from the only other pair of outputs on the DAC. I would like to see if this might make a difference, but perhaps the outputs aren't suitable for direct connection with the Oblivion.


----------



## SonicTrance

Gethyn said:


> I replied to this a week or so ago, but it doesn't seem to have registered. No matter . . .
> 
> I did actually try to use the Oblivion without the pre-amp, but couldn't get a signal from the only other pair of outputs on the DAC. I would like to see if this might make a difference, but perhaps the outputs aren't suitable for direct connection with the Oblivion.


That's strange. What outputs were you trying to use? You can use whatever outputs you like (even a smartphone but not ideal of course). The normal 2V / channel is perfect though.


----------



## Gethyn

SonicTrance said:


> That's strange. What outputs were you trying to use? You can use whatever outputs you like (even a smartphone but not ideal of course). The normal 2V / channel is perfect though.



There is only one pair of outputs from my DAC which is already connected to the pre-amp for my speaker set-up. I do have XLR outputs as well, but the Oblivion doesn't have XLR inputs.


----------



## SonicTrance

Gethyn said:


> There is only one pair of outputs from my DAC which is already connected to the pre-amp for my speaker set-up. I do have XLR outputs as well, but the Oblivion doesn't have XLR inputs.


Right, ok! You could always bypass (unplug) the preamp if you wanna hear Oblivion without it. I'm actually building an Oblivion with optional XLR inputs right now.


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## bozebuttons (Jun 8, 2019)

Gethyn said:


> I replied to this a week or so ago, but it doesn't seem to have registered. No matter . . .
> 
> I did actually try to use the Oblivion without the pre-amp, but couldn't get a signal from the only other pair of outputs on the DAC. I would like to see if this might make a difference, but perhaps the outputs aren't suitable for direct connection with the Oblivion.


you can use these  interconnect splitters  coming off your dac , hook up one set of interconnects to your preamp & another set to the obiivion
 . . .
https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AQM22FHRD&gclid=CO-GwM2Z2uICFZGKyAod8RMC-w

you can use this splitter to accomplish what you need,you need 2 of these

[/QUOTE]


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## baronbeehive (Jun 8, 2019)

bozebuttons said:


> you can use these  interconnect splitters  coming off your dac , hook up one set of interconnects to your preamp & another set to the obiivion
> . . .
> https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AQM22FHRD&gclid=CO-GwM2Z2uICFZGKyAod8RMC-w
> 
> you can use this splitter to accomplish what you need,you need 2 of these



Yes, I do something similar to come off the DAC to the headphone amp XLR's and to the SE speaker amp, therefore I can play both simultaneously which is useful for comparisons. Anyway, a bit different from what you want to do, but if you get the splitters let us know what you think... or do what Sonic said and bypass the preamp and just go direct from DAC to Oblivion, and try to remember what it sounded like with the preamp when comparing without it. I very much doubt you would actually need a preamp with the Oblivion as it is already strong in imaging apparently.


----------



## Venture Guy

@SonicTrance, @MrCurwen  any thoughts on applying these design principles to a DAC?


----------



## SonicTrance

Venture Guy said:


> @SonicTrance, @MrCurwen  any thoughts on applying these design principles to a DAC?


Hi, not at this time.


----------



## MrCurwen

Well, I did make a DAC for myself a couple of years ago. I even soldered the digital part (the chips) by hand. That was a huge mistake. 

Anyway, the analogue part is basically just another preamp stage. Nothing more to it than that. You can go balanced or SE. If your digital part has balanced output, balanced might be the way to go.

Only real difference is you probably want to have a bit more consideration to the PSU part than usual. Make it overkill, just to be sure.

If the cables are long, maybe add a FET buffer stage. Probably not necessary.


----------



## SonicTrance

Just finished another Oblivion. I've updated the chassis to a full aluminum one. 
This one has optional XLR inputs.


----------



## baronbeehive

It looks excellent, and the work inside fantastic!

Just one small point, I think you use the same legs as me which come in packs of 3. I was not happy with the 3 legs on my amp and I believe it is improved by using the 4.....less wonky!


----------



## SonicTrance

baronbeehive said:


> It looks excellent, and the work inside fantastic!
> 
> Just one small point, I think you use the same legs as me which come in packs of 3. I was not happy with the 3 legs on my amp and I believe it is improved by using the 4.....less wonky!


Thanks!
Not sure how you placed yours? This one is rock solid using three spikes.


----------



## leftside

Looks very professional.


----------



## SonicTrance

This is the first Citadel I've built for sale. Biggest difference visually is the deeper chassis and the octal tubes used.


----------



## Maxx134

Impressive...
What are the Octals?
6sn7?


----------



## SonicTrance

Maxx134 said:


> Impressive...
> What are the Octals?
> 6sn7?


6H9C (russian 6SL7) and 6P31S (russian EL36)
Any 6SL7/ECC35/6SU7 can be used. And also any EL36 of course.


----------



## Maxx134

I always preferred 6SL7 over any 6SN7, partially because it is louder..


----------



## SonicTrance

Yeah, 6SN7 is also a good tube. But, like you say, not enough gain to use in this amp. 6SL7 is very linear also and good sounding tube.


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## baronbeehive (Aug 9, 2019)

That really is one impressive amp Sonic, looks very good in black, sleek and functional.



Maxx134 said:


> I always preferred 6SL7 over any 6SN7, partially because it is louder..



Agree!

TBH I could never tell any sonic differences between them, I could however tell the price differences between the Tungsol 6SN7/6SL7's, made it a no brainer for me.

Edit: maybe we will have some impressions of the citadel if the customer in question is amenable.


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## SonicTrance

baronbeehive said:


> That really is one impressive amp Sonic, looks very good in black, sleek and functional.


Thanks! The front panel is available in silver as well. I think it looks better in black though.



baronbeehive said:


> Edit: maybe we will have some impressions of the citadel if the customer in question is amenable.


I think we’ll get some impressions in time. The amp is on its way.


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## Monsterzero

SonicTrance said:


> I think we’ll get some impressions in time.



Im still interested in reviewing your amp.


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## SonicTrance

Monsterzero said:


> Im still interested in reviewing your amp.


I’ll let you know if I build a loaner. If things doesn’t take off I might do it.


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## Phantaminum (Aug 21, 2019)

*Gear: PC --> Eitr --> Gungnir Multibit MB A1 --> Single End: Oblivion, Single End: Glenn OTL, Balanced: Liquid Platinum

Headphones:
ZMF Verite
ZMF Auteur
Sennheiser HD650
Fostex TR-X00
Hifiman Ananda
Verum One
*
​
*Build:
The Oblivion is one big puppy. It's the size of two Liquid Platinum's side by side and stacked two high. It may be bigger than Glenn's OTL amp but weighs much lighter. The black aluminum attributes to this as well as it being transformerless. The only niggle I have with it are the metal spike feet. There are three in total - two in the front corner and one in the back. Metal feet that the spike sit on are provided and it's stable enough. Now, when you're disconnecting cables and moving things around, the back tends to wobble if you're not careful. I would of personally asked for a fourth spike to stabilize it. The rest of the amp looks and feels well built. XLR jacks click in smoothly and the power switch feels sturdy.
*
* *​*
Sound: *
Slightly south from neutral with good extension on both ends. It's very strong in transients.The Oblivion can go low but it's not a bass monster. It has a refined presentation of bass - tight, fast, and punchy. Don't expect a big rumble from it. It extends well into the highs but never at any point harsh. This is an amplifier that I can see pairing very well with bright to neutral cans. The amp has a liquid way of presenting music while still having the attack needed for snares and cymbals. Speed is up there with solid state amps and I've not one complaint over it's PRaT. I had a blast listening to Rush's La Villa Strangiato from the Oblivion. It ate up all of the rhythmic changes without any complaints. The EL81 and 6AT6 imparts a tube like sound to the sound stage. It's big, and wide, with good depth. Great instrumental separation, tonality, and timbre. I will say that the amp can be strange with it's sound stage. For example, I found that the Verum One can be shouty at times on the Liquid Platinum and the Massdrop CTH. On the Oblivion it pushes the sound stage back a bit to where it's almost perfect for my tastes. When I decided to try out the Ananda I thought, "This may push the sound stage too far back for my tastes". It didn't change the sound stage at all.

*Amp Comparison:

Glenn OTL:*
Both amps are priced around $1700 in total. Where Glenn's amp falls short is clarity, speed, bass tautness, and a quiet background. This is quite obvious when using the HD650 on both amps. You feel like you're listening to the Sennheiser out of a fast solid state but with a tubey sound. The Oblivion's presentation reminds me of the iFi Audio Pro iCAN in that sense but with better tonality/timbre. With the Verite, speed is not an issue. I feel like I'm almost cheating when using that headphone with this amp. It sounds faster than the Liquid Platinum pairing. Glenn's amp has the upper hand in macro dynamics, layering*, depth*, instrument separation*, and versatility*. Small gradients in sound and large dynamic swings are done so incredibly well. The Verite just doesn't feel as dynamic sounding out of the Oblivion as Glenn's amp. On the other hand this is matter of taste. I like a warmer sounding amp and this fits the bill. The Oblivion does a fantastic job in being neutral and that's what it excels in.

*Layering, depth, and instrument separation are all dependent on the tubes being used. On average the tubes I use in the amp are worth around $400. The tubes in the Oblivion are a total of $35 - $40 shipped. *Versatility is either a big positive or big negative. If you're looking to be able to change the tone and timbre of your headphone this amp is for you. You can use 6, 12, and 25 volt driver tubes with a turn of a knob. On the other hand once you start the journey you'll end up going down the rabbit hole of tubes trying to find the right sound for your headphone. The Oblivion does not change sound when you tube roll. It has great tone and timbre but it's hard to get past the perfect combination of tubes on the GOTL.
*
Liquid Platinum:*
The Oblivion is technically a much better amplifier in almost all comparisons. The LP falls behind in speed, bass tautness, instrument separation, liquidity, imaging, and sound stage width. The Oblivion's smooth and liquid presentation can't be underrated. Tonality and timbre are about the same but only because I'm using $250 tubes in the LP. The LP does have the versatility of being able to roll tubes to adjust the sound to a specific headphone and it has fully balanced connections. Tomas does offer a fully balanced version of the Oblivion. Where the LP does win hands down is in the sub bass. It gives Verum One and Ananda a really nice rumble to it.

*Headphone pairing:

Verum One: *
This is, by far, my favorite pairing with the Oblivion. Just amazing synergy here and it makes the headphone sound like a million bucks. The Verum One has great timbre and tone, combined with its smooth presentation, and speed, it's no wonder that it sounds that good out of it. The Oblivion just stacks on the Verum One's strengths with its own. The Oblivion expands on its sound stage as well and pushes it slightly further out. Fast, tight attacks, with punchy bass. Rush's YYZ instruments, double kick drums and snares sound great with this pairing. Very clear and liquid sounding. Almost a holographic sound stage.

*Ananda:*
Great pairing as well and enjoyed it more out of the Oblivion compared to the Liquid Platinum. Most of what I said on the Verum One applies here as well except it doesn't scale as well as the Verum One. If you want a more laid back approach to music this is a good headphone to use. Smooth, clear, and wide. I would of loved to try out the Arya or HEK V2s as I think this amp would of tamed the highs enough to enjoy them.

*TR-X00:*
I was pleasantly surprised with this headphone and the Oblivion. I only had the default pads (which I loathe) but from experience you never get the same level of bass once you pad roll. The Oblivion tightens up the sound, adds speed, and tames treble peaks. When I owned the Fostex before, my ears would fatigue quickly. I've been running these for the past couple of hours and I'm truly enjoying combination. The LP rumbles the Fostex harder but the rest of the frequency sounds so much better out of the Oblivion. There's more air between instruments and it expands the sound stage slightly (it's noticeable but not big by any stretch of the imagination).

*HD650:*
Eh, it's doable. There are amps out there that have better synergy. I would stick with the MCTH and a LPS if you have one or save up for one of the TOTL amps to really make it scale.

*Auteur:*
Perforated pads: One of my personal favorite combinations. Great transients, attack, and liquid smoothness without dulling the sound.
Auteur pads: I don't enjoy these pads as they've previously sounded too bright for me. With the Oblivion, it was much more enjoyable. Instruments have more air, better separation, and an even more neutral sound.

*Verite:*
Universe Pads - No. Please don't.
Suede Perforated Pads - Much much better. Does a better job by bringing up the treble and doesn't make it sound dull.
Be2 pads - Different presentation but much more holographic than then Suede Perf Pads. Starts sounding like the Auteur.
As a personal preference I preferred a more warmer sound with the GOTL than the neutral sound out of the Oblivion.

*Conclusion:*
This amp pairs up nicely with neutral to bright headphones. It loves low z dynamics and planar headphones. I can just imagine how an Elex or Clear would sound out of it. I wish I could give you guys more data points when it comes to other amps. It be nice to compare it against the iFi Audio Pro iCAN, or the A&S Pendant. It has SS speed with good tube warmth, liquid sound, and fantastic transients.


----------



## SonicTrance

I will now offer these amps with an optional impedance switch! I've made some measurements on my Citadel and updated the website with specs and power outputs. Will update the Oblivion page with power outputs when I've built the next one but it will be similar to Citadel. 
This is to give more power to high Z headphones.


----------



## 2359glenn

Hi Tomas
Have you sold many yet?
Switching to the Octal tube is a good idea most people prefer them.
Nice looking amp.

Good luck
Glenn


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## SonicTrance

2359glenn said:


> Hi Tomas
> Have you sold many yet?
> Switching to the Octal tube is a good idea most people prefer them.
> Nice looking amp.
> ...


Hey Glenn,
I've sold 4 amps, so not that many lol. Thanks for the nice words though!


----------



## Dogmatrix

I would love to buy one particularly the octal version . In fact I am actively setting aside the pennies so please don't give up . Really good quality hybrids are rare and this one is beautiful as well . Unfortunately I live in Australia so the goal line keeps moving away in terms of currency conversion , but what goes down must come back up I hope .


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## SonicTrance

Dogmatrix said:


> I would love to buy one particularly the octal version . In fact I am actively setting aside the pennies so please don't give up . Really good quality hybrids are rare and this one is beautiful as well . Unfortunately I live in Australia so the goal line keeps moving away in terms of currency conversion , but what goes down must come back up I hope .


Don't worry I'm not giving up! I really enjoy building these amps and its not my job, just a hobby.


----------



## simr

I am the proud owner of the Citadel Amp  This is just a customer impression.

Packaging was top class; Citadel is huge, heavy and impressive; I still building furniture around it 

I feed this Amp with RME ADI 2 DAC and with Meze Empyrean planars. With Citadel I can really see now why Empy is a flagship headphone. Also the DAC was elevated quite impressive.

Compared with the good amp section of the RME everything is more in sound, soundstage is wider in all directions and more focused, instruments are well positioned in space and with more body and air. I can hear more details and textures; Dynamics and transients are just perfect for my ears. Bass is now deeper and hit harder, mids and highs are so sweet. Live recordings are teleporting me with the artists in the same place with them 

I was worried about power but not after first minute of listening, still plenty of room without any distortions; I find Citadel fast, neutral, liquid and natural; this is what I was looking for. I like many genres of music, so depending on my mood I need my chain to serve me well in all cases and is doing very well.

After a huge leap of faith, I'm a very happy customer and recommend this Amp highly, also Thomas is very helpful and nice guy!


----------



## UntilThen

This is my first post on this thread but there are already 7 pages of posts. A lot of the posts are technical which is beyond my understanding. However after seeing a few pictures of the amps, I became pretty interested. I shouldn't be because I've been through quite a lot of ss and tube amps since I joined Head-Fi in 2015. A short journey but I've been through quite a lot of amps. Even right now I've 3 headphone tube amps and 3 solid state amps.

This is one photo from Sonic Trance that made me sit up. It uses c3g as driver tubes. Not many amps use c3g. My Glenn OTL amp does and that is one special very revealing tube.


 

So I started talking to Sonic who's ultra friendly. He doesn't strikes me as a trade member but more an audio enthusiast who just love talking amps and how that affects our enjoyment in listening to music through headphones or speakers.

Then Sonic showed me how he transformed the above amp into this balanced Mona Lisa.  I couldn't believe what I see. It's beautiful !
 

Then he showed me another of his build that he use to drive his speakers. This has 2 chassis. One for the power supply and the other the tube amp. Beautiful !!! From someone who has a fulltime job and build his amps after work. The aesthetics are so good. That's good enough to grace my lounge room. 
 

Then I learned that Sonic currently produce 2 amps for sale. The Citadel and Oblivion. He's going to produce an Oblivion with speakers output and an impedance switch ..... for me to review. No obligations to buy.  I'm not a professional reviewer but why not....  It will be similar to my interest in any amp with tubes. 

The Oblivion does look very striking. That's all I know about it at this point in time - just looks. I'll discover how it sound when it arrives in due time.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I prefer my amp to be transparent, fast and detailed while keeping the holographic soundstage. Not slow and goey "tube sound".



That's my preference too. It's the reason I prefer my Glenn Super 9 OTL amp using Sylvania 6sn7w metal base plus 6 x RCA / Sylvania 6BX7gt over the Woo Audio WA5LE using Brimar CV1988, EML 5U4G mesh plates rectifiers and Takatsuki 300b tubes. It was a 2 weeks period of comparison between these 2 amps. I wanted to prefer the WA5LE because it looks better but I can't deny that sound wise I prefer the Glenn OTL amp more. Yggdrasil and HD800 in attendance.

If Oblivion sound as you described then I want to hear it for myself.


----------



## UntilThen

Lastly I want to see how Oblivion drives my Axis LS88 4 ohms 300w max capable floor standers and it's little brother the Axis LS28 bookshelf 8 ohms speakers. 

 

And because I love Axis speakers and I know the designer, John Reilly, I also have the Axis Voicebox S. https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/axis/1.html
Here I have the Sansui AU-717 driving it. I also have the Sansui au-Alpha 907MR and Redgum RGI120ENR black series integrated amps for comparisons. I don't expect Oblivion to drive my speakers like my powerful integrated amps but it would be interesting to hear what it does...


----------



## SonicTrance

Thanks for the kind words @UntilThen !

I've started to build some modules for the review amp now! 

I suspect Oblivion will pair nicely with your floor standing 4 ohm speakers. That's where the amp has most power also.

Question: Does your speakers have a ground lug? 

Some speakers do. I ask because Oblivions speaker outputs are balanced, so the black terminal is not ground but is carrying signal in antiphase to the red terminal. Then there's a centertap to ground.

If your speakers have a ground lug I can ad a ground connection at the back!


----------



## UntilThen

I don't think my Axis LS88 has a ground lug. This is a picture of the back showing the connections. I think it allows for bi-amping? However the bridge is there so I'm not bi-amping it.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I've started to build some modules for the review amp now!



No rush but I'm looking forward to it. I kept looking at the picture of the Oblivion on the 1st page of this thread. Somehow the tubes used makes the Oblivion look nicer than the Citadel.  I also noticed that Maxx likes the HD800 with the Oblivion. That's good because my trusted HD800 is ready and waiting. I've kept it mint since I bought it new from Addicted To Audio in downtown Sydney. I'm more keen on hearing how Oblivion sound through my ZMF Verite Open LTD Pheasant Wood. This dynamic 300 ohms hp has a slightly warm sound but the clarity and details are very good due to the beryllium drivers used. I've always seek tubes that present a more neutral and brighter tone in my amp to pair with Verite. That and with Yggdrasil brighter and sparkly tone, I'm rather happy with this headphone that is very comfortable on the head and pleasing to the ears. There is no fatigue !!!


----------



## UntilThen

Oh Sonic, in case you didn't know, I'm in Sydney Australia, so it's 230v. 

I don't normally see a fan being used in amps but it's used in your amps. Does the amps generate a lot of heat? I'm ok with the fan because you said it's quiet and can't be heard. A build in fan might be good because some Glenn OTL amp users use an external fan to cool it.  Not that it's needed but they must be using quad 6080 which can get very hot.


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## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I don't think my Axis LS88 has a ground lug. This is a picture of the back showing the connections. I think it allows for bi-amping? However the bridge is there so I'm not bi-amping it.


Ok, so no ground connection is needed! All good.



UntilThen said:


> I kept looking at the picture of the Oblivion on the 1st page of this thread. Somehow the tubes used makes the Oblivion look nicer than the Citadel.


I can build Citadel with EL81's as output as well. Just need to use either two 6AT6/6AV6 per side for the input stage, or replace them with a single 12AX7. The 6AV6's triodes are basically half of a 12AX7. The reason I used octal tubes in Citadel is mostly because of aesthetics. I thought it would look nicer "bigger chassis, bigger tubes" but I don't know, lol. The EL36's (6P31S) are pretty much the octal version of EL81!



UntilThen said:


> Oh Sonic, in case you didn't know, I'm in Sydney Australia, so it's 230v.


I did know! And that's all good!



UntilThen said:


> I don't normally see a fan being used in amps but it's used in your amps. Does the amps generate a lot of heat? I'm ok with the fan because you said it's quiet and can't be heard. A build in fan might be good because some Glenn OTL amp users use an external fan to cool it.  Not that it's needed but they must be using quad 6080 which can get very hot.


It does generate some heat. It's not very efficient, lol. It runs in class A of course. The fan is a 200mm 700rpm fan, so very quiet. It's there to get the air moving inside the amp, that's it. The entire chassis acts like a big heatsink as well. It's totally fine though, just don't put it inside a cabinet or something. It needs to breathe!


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## Maxx134 (Nov 2, 2019)

The "Oblivion" amp remains my end game amp. Period.
That's it. I don't need anything else.
Game over.

I stopped after this.
No more amps with altered soundstages, or altered Tonality signatures, or added rich tube harmonics.

What I get is resolution, proper image placement, holography and transients galore.

Don't need brute power when I have enough without any audible distortion.

On the "Oblivion" version, I Dont loose totally the ability of driver tube rolling, if I wanted any change to the 0.005% signature change, that would only be percieved if I compared to another amp...

Comparing it even to the best solid state amp I tried, which, (by the way), was not the Benckmark HPA4, but instead, the  PASS LABS INT-150 (speaker amp on the Susvara), and got literally the same exact signature minus a touch of bass oomph of the other amp (driving a Susvara!,  which may have already been above neutral in bass),
 which I touched up a notch in "roon" player, to achieve exact sig & performance level, at a much lower noise floor, which solidified my impression that I am in true end game territory.
So I am literally retired from the amp game as I have my reference amp.
Only for hobby fun, I play with others.


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## Maxx134 (Jan 2, 2020)

I didn't want to say this, as there is much musical gear out there and I still can enjoy them all, but...

The truth is that 99.999% of the other "tube" amps out there are just glorified old-school designs.

They put DC in their tube filament and think they are now modern.
Still old-school designs.

The put a CCS tail on a circuit and think they upgraded what is essentially the same old-school designs (of 50 years ago) ...

Or they put cool LEDs in the bias control circuit, just to look advanced. ..

Fake hybrids.
All are fake hybrids to me.

They put a tube (single ended even worse) in ancient old school topology, in their input stage, so it gives off its distortion, and then call it a hybrid...

So now, with ALL of them, you waste your time and money tube rolling... And rolling... And more tube rolling,
Which in reality is just like having different bias, linearity, and internal capacitance  variations of different tubes...
All the while trying to find a sweet spot match between circuit bias setting, and tube, in a "designer chosen"  circuit setting.

 All distorted lenses into viewing the music.


***
In contrast, these amps take old circuit design and approach it totally differently.
A different topology approach with a different goal in mind.
A goal to remove all component "parasitics", the sonic influence of parts and circuit behaviors.

This is why this amp is not your usual tube, or hybrid amp.

This is also the only amp I know that uses components to their ideal performance advantage, which is tubes for voltage and solid state for current..
Then to remove parasitics, the coupling and of stages is of such high ratios, as to have no component influence. Then add to that ideal circuit parameters, and optimal usage of CCS and gyro to cause high transient response...

That's my take, on my own experience with amps.
You may be totally happy with your own gear.
The point is, in this hobby you do find musicality as you progress along the way, so enjoy it while you can, as that is fleeting until  you arrive at a high level.


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## Maxx134 (Nov 2, 2019)

If anyone is curious to know the history of this topology, you can check out
the heated discussions in the  MK6/8supermod threads when member MrCurwen entered and alot of discussion lead to sonictrance building off his designs in the "modern tube amp" thread, and now this thread.
I was a serious tube only convert until then, haha.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I can build Citadel with EL81's as output as well. Just need to use either two 6AT6/6AV6 per side for the input stage, or replace them with a single 12AX7. The 6AV6's triodes are basically half of a 12AX7. The reason I used octal tubes in Citadel is mostly because of aesthetics. I thought it would look nicer "bigger chassis, bigger tubes" but I don't know, lol. The EL36's (6P31S) are pretty much the octal version of EL81!



I'm not familiar with EL81 or the 6AT6/6AV6 used in Oblivion. So I dig around and found out the EL81 predates EL84. These 2 tubes are entirely different. EL81 was intended for early TV horizontal sweep application. Is there a reason for not choosing the more popular EL84? I don't know. Perhaps tubes don't make much difference in your amp design. Just a curiosity that's all. From this old write up. https://www.tiffe.de/roehren/VTV/VTV08.pdf

I was thinking that using Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez might look good on the Oblivion but then again the small tubes you have there does look good in the overall scheme. Aesthetics are important and your amp has it but ultimately it would be how it sound.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> On the "Oblivion" version, I Dont loose totally the ability of driver tube rolling, if I wanted any change to the 0.005% signature change, that would only be percieved if I compared to another amp...



So changing driver can alter the sound signature by 0.005%, which is as good as not changing.  Just out of curiosity, how would you achieve that. Do you roll in a different brand EL81 or a different loctal similar tube to EL81?


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## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Perhaps tubes don't make much difference in your amp design. Just a curiosity that's all.


On the contrary, tubes make a big difference. The EL84 is not as linear as the EL81 and the EL84 has a little too high Ra for these amps. Also, there’s no reason to use the popular audiophile tubes. There’re so many super linear tubes out there for cheap that you can use! 



UntilThen said:


> Aesthetics are important and your amp has it but ultimately it would be how it sound.


Totally agree! SQ comes first, of course


----------



## wasupdog

For the Oblivion if we're using Yggy and Gumby dacs it's known that there's slight signal loss due to summing of the single end outputs (although this is not the case with the new Bifrost 2).  Would the solution be to get the xlr input option on the Oblivion?  Or is this solution just xlr input connectors on the amp but it's not a true balanced signal the whole way through?  I did see that the Oblivion is single end in with balanced output at the headphone jack, if I read it right.


----------



## SonicTrance

wasupdog said:


> For the Oblivion if we're using Yggy and Gumby dacs it's known that there's slight signal loss due to summing of the single end outputs (although this is not the case with the new Bifrost 2).  Would the solution be to get the xlr input option on the Oblivion?  Or is this solution just xlr input connectors on the amp but it's not a true balanced signal the whole way through?  I did see that the Oblivion is single end in with balanced output at the headphone jack, if I read it right.


The XLR input option for Oblivion is not a balanced input. I'll leave one phase floating from the DAC since the input stage is SE in Oblivion.

Both Oblivion and Citadel has balanced outputs but only Citadel is balanced from end to end.

@Phantaminum Oblivion has XLR inputs for this very reason. I believe he has gumby.


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## baronbeehive (Nov 3, 2019)

Maxx134 said:


> So now, with ALL of them, you waste your time and money tube rolling... And rolling... And more tube rolling,
> Which in reality is just having different bias settings on different tubes...
> All the while trying to find a sweet spot match between circuit bias setting, and tube, in a "designer chosen"  circuit setting.
> 
> All distorted lenses into viewing the music.



Excellent point!

All that faffing around with different amps just in order to get a slightly different signature when the only thing that's changed is the bias points of the tube in question or the tube type in a given circuit. What we should be wanting is an end game circuit designed properly in the first place so we don't  need to adjust it ourselves, unless we want to of course.

This is what we have in the Oblivion according to the theory above, and the implementation of the design, in order to produce ideal SQ from its components, all designed thoughtfully for maximum benefit, and working together optimally, not just thrown together. We have come a long way from old school designs in this now that we are in the 21st century, not the 1950's, or 60's.

I was always open to the idea of hybrid designs, but didn't want to lose the positive aspects of tube sound. What we want is true high fidelity sound reproduction, and when we appear to have got that what else is there to achieve. I just wonder about all the newfangled things coming out on the market now, a lot of them digital in nature. I know manufacturers will still want to push the envelope and consumers will still want to try new things, that will never change.

What MrCurwen has done with his designs is turned everything on its head, less, not more power, cheaper, not more expensive parts, components working within their parameters, not outside them etc. In achieving this he appears to have overcome all the negative aspects inherent in amplifier technology.



Maxx134 said:


> The point is, in this hobby you do find musicality as you progress along the way, so enjoy it while you can, as that is fleeting until  you arrive at a high level.




The many amps on the market still do not enjoy the attention to detail of the Oblivion, I believe, so why waste time when you have the ultimate in musicality.

I too, am near to retirement, off the never ending treadmill, with my modded LD, the performance of which is superb but I would think is less accurate and less neutral than the Oblivion going by the reviews as I haven't heard it myself to compare. The only other step to consider is, do I sell it and replace it with the Oblivion now.... or later lol!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> The XLR input option for Oblivion is not a balanced input. I'll leave one phase floating from the DAC since the input stage is SE in Oblivion.
> 
> Both Oblivion and Citadel has balanced outputs but only Citadel is balanced from end to end.
> 
> @Phantaminum Oblivion has XLR inputs for this very reason. I believe he has gumby.



Sonic, I’ve Yggdrasil. Would it be beneficial for the Oblivion you’re sending me to have xlr input?


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Sonic, I’ve Yggdrasil. Would it be beneficial for the Oblivion you’re sending me to have xlr input?


I'm not sure why they summed the SE outputs in their DACs. or how it sounds vs a non-summed output. I tell you what, I'll build with both RCA and XLR inputs, then you can test that also


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I'm not sure why they summed the SE outputs in their DACs. or how it sounds vs a non-summed output. I tell you what, I'll build with both RCA and XLR inputs, then you can test that also



Ok excellent. That will be a good test.


----------



## joseph69

@SonicTrance 
Very appealing!


----------



## SonicTrance

@joseph69 
Thanks!


----------



## Maxx134

SonicTrance said:


> I'm not sure why they summed the SE outputs in their DACs. or how it sounds vs a non-summed output. I tell you what, I'll build with both RCA and XLR inputs, then you can test that also


Yeah the balanced out is not only more louder but a bit better sounding as well.
I would advise the citadel to take advantage of the balanced inputs to the fullest.


----------



## SonicTrance

Maxx134 said:


> Yeah the balanced out is not only more louder but a bit better sounding as well.


I don't mean the balanced outputs per se. I mean summed SE vs non-summed SE output. The XLR input in Oblivion will take one phase from the balanced DAC and leave the other phase floating, making it non-summed.



Maxx134 said:


> I would advise the citadel to take advantage of the balanced inputs to the fullest.


Yes, of course. But this is a review amp.


----------



## Phantaminum

UntilThen said:


> Ok excellent. That will be a good test.



The amp sounds fantastic with the Auteurs. It doesn’t have the big, and bold sound that the GOTL but it’s clear, has a nice dash of euphony, and great transients. Really one of my favorite amps to use with the Auteurs.

The Verite sounds better with the BE2 pads or the Auteur pads. You get some serious detail, speed, and punch without it sounding too dark (Universe pads). I took a while for me to really enjoy what this amp brings to the table.


----------



## UntilThen

Phantaminum said:


> The amp sounds fantastic with the Auteurs. It doesn’t have the big, and bold sound that the GOTL but it’s clear, has a nice dash of euphony, and great transients. Really one of my favorite amps to use with the Auteurs.
> 
> The Verite sounds better with the BE2 pads or the Auteur pads. You get some serious detail, speed, and punch without it sounding too dark (Universe pads). I took a while for me to really enjoy what this amp brings to the table.



I haven't heard Oblivion yet but I get a sense of how it sound from your description. With Verite Open, I've tend to choose brighter sounding tubes. I look forward to hear how it sound with Oblivion. As usual, I am not forming any opinion first despite others reviews. When I get Oblivion, it would be my ears and preference. Of note would be a comparison with my Studio Six.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I haven't heard Oblivion yet but I get a sense of how it sound from your description. With Verite Open, I've tend to choose brighter sounding tubes. I look forward to hear how it sound with Oblivion. As usual, I am not forming any opinion first despite others reviews. When I get Oblivion, it would be my ears and preference. Of note would be a comparison with my Studio Six.


That's good! Please form your own opinion. I know it's hard not to get affected by other impressions. 

I'd like to point out though that Oblivion is designed to be detailed and transparent and not color the sound much. So if you listen to a bass heavy track, you'll get heavy bass. If there's less bass in the song, you'll get less bass. So if you're a basshead, for example, you have to use EQ. 

I know EQ is a bad word among audiophiles but, to me, it's no different than rolling tubes as the goal is the same. Change the sound signature (if you have an amp that responds well to tube rolling). I've tried different EQ settings when I had roon and liked it actually. Don't use it anymore though.


----------



## Phantaminum

UntilThen said:


> I haven't heard Oblivion yet but I get a sense of how it sound from your description. With Verite Open, I've tend to choose brighter sounding tubes. I look forward to hear how it sound with Oblivion. As usual, I am not forming any opinion first despite others reviews. When I get Oblivion, it would be my ears and preference. Of note would be a comparison with my Studio Six.



If you find that the Universe perforated leather pads are too rolled off at the top end, give the Universe perforated suede pads a try. I found that the suede version adds that last bit of clarity and sparkle to music. Works really well with the Oblivion.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> That's good! Please form your own opinion. I know it's hard not to get affected by other impressions.
> 
> *I'd like to point out though that Oblivion is designed to be detailed and transparent and not color the sound much.* So if you listen to a bass heavy track, you'll get heavy bass. If there's less bass in the song, you'll get less bass. So if you're a basshead, for example, you have to use EQ.
> 
> I know EQ is a bad word among audiophiles but, to me, it's no different than rolling tubes as the goal is the same. Change the sound signature (if you have an amp that responds well to tube rolling). I've tried different EQ settings when I had roon and liked it actually. Don't use it anymore though.



That's good. I heard the Blue Hawaii with Stax SR-009 and 007 in 2017 and was impressed by the clarity and details. When I had the LCD-3f, I prefer the HD800 over it. So therein lies my preference. Occasionally a bass heavy track does pleased my ears but I don't seek it. I don't EQ though and never felt the need to.


----------



## UntilThen (Nov 7, 2019)

Phantaminum said:


> If you find that the Universe perforated leather pads are too rolled off at the top end, give the Universe perforated suede pads a try. I found that the suede version adds that last bit of clarity and sparkle to music. Works really well with the Oblivion.



2 pads came with my Verite. Of the 2, I prefer the Verite flat lambskin pads because of the better high end extensions and treble sweetness, airiness and wider soundstage. Feels lighter too. So yeah I've not been using the Universe pads for a while but rather using the thinner Verite flat pads.

Whilst it's not totally accurate, Verite Open does seem to encompass the best of HD800, LCD-3f and Focal Uotpia. I still have the HD800, have owned the LCD-3f and heard the Utopia multiple times.

Some of the bass heavy headphones like the Fostex- TH900, are just not for me. Did like the LCD4 though because it's clearer at the top end and not so skewed bass heavy. Can't make up my mind on the Abyss though. Did like it on the Woo WA5. Heard the Susvara with WA33 once - very different and an impressive tone. Need to hear it again because it was too short an audition.

Did like the Verite now though after having it for 3 months now. Like it with all my 3 tube amps. Occasionally I still use the HD800.


----------



## Phantaminum

UntilThen said:


> 2 pads came with my Verite. Of the 2, I prefer the Verite flat lambskin pads because of the better high end extensions and treble sweetness, airiness and wider soundstage. Feels lighter too. So yeah I've not been using the Universe pads for a while but rather using the thinner Verite flat pads.
> 
> Whilst it's not totally accurate, Verite Open does seem to encompass the best of HD800, LCD-3f and Focal Uotpia. I still have the HD800, have owned the LCD-3f and heard the Utopia multiple times.
> 
> ...



Verite pads will work perfectly. It’s brighter than the Universe pads and that goes well with the Oblivion. The Universe perf pads can come across somewhat dark.


----------



## SonicTrance

@UntilThen 
Did some work today. The back panel is now complete. This is the busiest back panel I've made. Not much room left


----------



## 2359glenn

I see that I am not the only person that likes the Russian capacitors. They are really good for the price.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> @UntilThen
> Did some work today. The back panel is now complete. This is the busiest back panel I've made. Not much room left



lf looks are part of the review, Oblivion would have scored some points already.


----------



## UntilThen

2359glenn said:


> I see that I am not the only person that likes the Russian capacitors. They are really good for the price.



I love Russian caps. They are in the OTL amp you made for me.


----------



## SonicTrance

2359glenn said:


> I see that I am not the only person that likes the Russian capacitors. They are really good for the price.


Yeah! I use exclusively Russian film caps. They're very good and highly underrated voltage wise. If you run them at spec or lower voltage they last forever I think. Only downside is the size.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Yeah! I use exclusively Russian film caps. They're very good and highly underrated voltage wise. If you run them at spec or lower voltage they last forever I think. Only downside is the size.



Pictures of the Russian film caps please..... or anything else you could share.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Pictures of the Russian film caps please..... or anything else you could share.


In the pic above of the back panel those red caps are Russian MBGO film caps. Those are used in the regulators for B+ and B- supplies.
I also use some other types of Russian caps. I can snap some pics later when I get home


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Pictures of the Russian film caps please..... or anything else you could share.


These K73 caps are allround caps I use in the power supplies and also for the gyrator plate loads.
 

I use MBGO in both power supplies and as parafeed caps. These are waxed paper so no oil that can possibly leak. I have some oil caps too. Will show next.
  

Here's Russian KBG caps I've used for coupling. These are the best, next to silver mica, Russian caps there is. They're getting very rare though. These are filled with toxic oil.
 

These are also pio, K42Y-2 and more readily available than the KBG's.


I used to have a thing for large caps. Look at this beauty! It's HUGE  Not practical to use though. I had a pair of these as parafeed in the SE build I did before I rebuilt it. Great caps but no reason to use them. It sounds just as good with MBGO's.
 

I got many more as well. You can never have enough Russian caps, lol


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I used to have a thing for large caps. Look at this beauty! It's HUGE



As a layman, I must say I have a thing for large caps too. They sure look impressive.  Well thanks for the pictures and explaining the different type of russian caps you use in Oblivion.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> That's good! Please form your own opinion. I know it's hard not to get affected by other impressions.



Almost forgot to reply to this. Trying to stay un-bias before the arrival of Oblivion is my aim.  However when the first post made mention of Oblivion's clarity compared to WA33, that made me sit up. I've heard Susvara with WA33 at the Sydney HiFi show about 2 years ago and it's an impression that has not left me.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> Almost forgot to reply to this. Trying to stay un-bias before the arrival of Oblivion is my aim.  However when the first post made mention of Oblivion's clarity compared to WA33, that made me sit up. I've heard Susvara with WA33 at the Sydney HiFi show about 2 years ago and it's an impression that has not left me.


Congratulations on your incoming Oblivion.
Even though you're going off of memory from 2yrs ago, I'd like to hear your impressions of the Oblivion in comparison to the "impression that has not left you" with the Abyss/WA33.

Enjoy!


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> Congratulations on your incoming Oblivion.
> Even though you're going off of memory from 2yrs ago, I'd like to hear your impressions of the Oblivion in comparison to the "impression that has not left you" with the Abyss/WA33.
> 
> Enjoy!



It's the Susvara with WA33 not the Abyss.  It's a tone unlike anything I've heard before. It's deep and haunting with a killer clarity and details. It's only a fleeting impression as it's a HiFi Show ... so my memory may have faded.  

Unless I can pay Addicted To Audio a visit and get them to demo that setup for me again.... after all I did buy Yggy, Rggy, HD800 and LCD-2f all within 2 months from them in 2017.


----------



## joseph69

My mistake when replying, I meant Susvara.
 I had the Susvara and own the WA33 and they did sound sound excellent together, but I actually preferred the HE1Kv2 over the Susvara.
I hear nothing but positive about the Oblivion, so still would like to hear your impressions after sufficient time.


----------



## UntilThen

No worries. My mistake too for not clarifying 'an impression that has not left me'. Don't mean to convey that I remember everything I heard 2 years ago but rather that I was very impressed when I heard the Susvara and WA33 combination from the Addicted To Audio stand at the Sydney HiFi Show. I have a friend who has a HE1000se and he was very happy with it. He might have like it even more than his ZMF Verite Open.

I did not order the Oblivion. It was meant to be a layman's review from me. So I'll be comparing it to my immediate amps - ALO Audio Studio Six, Glenn OTL amp and Woo Audio WA22 as well as my integrated amps - Redgum RGI120ENR black series, Sansui au-alpha 907mr and Sansui au-717.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> No worries. My mistake too for not clarifying 'an impression that has not left me'. Don't mean to convey that I remember everything I heard 2 years ago but rather that I was very impressed when I heard the Susvara and WA33 combination from the Addicted To Audio stand at the Sydney HiFi Show. I have a friend who has a HE1000se and he was very happy with it. He might have like it even more than his ZMF Verite Open.
> 
> I did not order the Oblivion. It was meant to be a layman's review from me. So I'll be comparing it to my immediate amps - ALO Audio Studio Six, Glenn OTL amp and Woo Audio WA22 as well as my integrated amps - Redgum RGI120ENR black series, Sansui au-alpha 907mr and Sansui au-717.


Okay, now I remember reading that you were receiving it for a review (been a little busy lately).
Still looking forward to your impressions in comparisons to the amps you own.


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> I hear nothing but positive about the Oblivion



I hear nothing until now but I agree, what little I hear has been positive.  

However it's starting on the right note. 

Number one, the amps have names and good sounding names - Citadel and Oblivion. How could I forget Citadel. *"Cronin's distinguished achievement....No one could have written as fine, honest, and moving a study of a young doctor as The Citadel without possessing great literary taste and skill." --The Atlantic Monthly*
Number 2, there is a website. In this day of digital information, that's important. 
Number 3, the amps' looks are striking. It gets your attention by looks alone. 
Number 4 is getting the message across with a few words. People are busy these days and have no time to read several paragraphs. 

These are the words used to convey what kind of amp Oblivion is. It's the designer's mission statement.

*Each component does what they do best which gives you the best possible sound while saving money.*
*Transparent, fast and clean sound.*
*Immediacy and openness. Holographic organic imaging.*
*Good quality Russian film caps and Japanese Nichicon electrolytics.*

The last gets my attention because my Sansui AU-717 was recapped with Nichicon electrolytic caps by my Sansui guru with Nichicon caps. The Sansui AU-Alpha 907MR will go in for a health check soon.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> However it's starting on the right note.


Thanks man! 

I've been drilling out the chassis today and started putting it together. Should have it ready in a week or two. It depends how much there's to do at work. It's good that you have all those amps. Comparisons is where its at IMO!


----------



## UntilThen

No rush Sonic. Work comes first.  I also have an implementation in 2 weeks time. All in, leading up to an interesting Christmas !


----------



## SonicTrance

Alright so the review amp for UT is done! Burning in ATM. Will ship it early next week.


----------



## UntilThen

I look at it for several minutes. It's beautiful. 

Look at that internals. It's so neat and looks gorgeous.

High and low impedance switch and headphone, speakers out. I am looking forward to hearing it with Verite and HD800.

@UsoppNoKami  you have to come here for Christmas.


----------



## Phantaminum

@SonicTrance What’s the Z-out when switched to high impedance? Thanks!


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I look at it for several minutes. It's beautiful.
> 
> Look at that internals. It's so neat and looks gorgeous.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I think it looks good with three knobs on the front. More symmetrical  



Phantaminum said:


> @SonicTrance What’s the Z-out when switched to high impedance? Thanks!


It will be around 4 ohms on low and around 12 ohms on high. I did experiment with higher Z output and while it did yield higher power for high Z loads, it didn't sound any better. Also the noise floor increased with higher Z output so I went with the 12 ohms as a happy medium. I think it makes a difference with my LCD-3's @ 100 ohms. Gonna be interesting to hear what UT thinks.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Thanks! I think it looks good with three knobs on the front. More symmetrical



Three knobs looks good indeed but I also notice there's 4 feet now instead of 3.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Three knobs looks good indeed but I also notice there's 4 feet now instead of 3.


Yeah, I added one spike last time thanks to user feedback. So it's more sturdy now.

Remember to read the instructions I sent you before you use the amp  It's nothing special just basic stuff but still you should read it.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Yeah, I added one spike last time thanks to user feedback. So it's more sturdy now.
> 
> Remember to read the instructions I sent you before you use the amp  It's nothing special just basic stuff but still you should read it.



No problem and I have read the instructions manual. Are you sending me the EL81 and 6AV6 tubes? The latter for speakers out.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> No problem and I have read the instructions manual. Are you sending me the EL81 and 6AV6 tubes? The latter for speakers out.


Ok good! 

Yes, I'm sending NOS tubes with the amp. EL81's and 6AV6's. You can't use 6AT6 in this amp like the other Oblivions use. It has the same pinout but I use grid bias on the input stage which means no "auto bias". So a 6AT6 will run way too hot.


----------



## Phantaminum

SonicTrance said:


> Thanks! I think it looks good with three knobs on the front. More symmetrical
> 
> 
> It will be around 4 ohms on low and around 12 ohms on high. I did experiment with higher Z output and while it did yield higher power for high Z loads, it didn't sound any better. Also the noise floor increased with higher Z output so I went with the 12 ohms as a happy medium. I think it makes a difference with my LCD-3's @ 100 ohms. Gonna be interesting to hear what UT thinks.



It’s great to have options for it. I’m very much still enjoying mine.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Ok good!
> 
> Yes, I'm sending NOS tubes with the amp. EL81's and 6AV6's. You can't use 6AT6 in this amp like the other Oblivions use. It has the same pinout but I use grid bias on the input stage which means no "auto bias". So a 6AT6 will run way too hot.



NOS tubes? I am a fan of good NOS tubes.  I see these Dario EL81 and Telefunken 6av6 on ebay. However whatever NOS tubes you send me I'll use. 

I initially thought that the pair of tubes with the top anode cap are the 6av6 and the single tube is EL81 but it's the other way round !


----------



## UntilThen

I was wondering why the Oblivion uses such a big chassis then I look at the internals and it's almost packed ! I'm amazed at how symmetrical the wiring and placements of the parts are. !

It's looking good inside and out.


----------



## SonicTrance

Yeah it's the other way round 

I'll send Siemens EL 81 and RCA 6AV6 with the amp. They're good tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I'll send Siemens EL 81 and RCA 6AV6 with the amp. They're good tubes.



Nice ! Good brands too. You can see I'm still very much tubes orientated but the Oblivion will not require expensive tubes - which is good !


----------



## saman65

SonicTrance said:


> Alright so the review amp for UT is done! Burning in ATM. Will ship it early next week.


Yey


----------



## BreadMaster

@Maxx134 Jesus, $1450 amp beating out the 8k wa33? Sounds too good to be true..


----------



## Phantaminum

BreadMaster said:


> @Maxx134 Jesus, $1450 amp beating out the 8k wa33? Sounds too good to be true..



This hobby is definitely subjective. To Maxx the Oblivion just hits all of the sweet spots that he's looking for and that's why it beats out the WA33. It could be another person finds this amp to be too neutral and lifeless. 

Personally, I find myself reaching over for my Blackwood Auteurs and flipping the switch on the Oblivion than reaching over for the Verite and flipping the switch on the Teton. Just another data point.


----------



## leftside

My experience has been that custom amps built by a good builder will beat an off-the-shelf amp at a similar price point, and often be better than amps costing 2* or 3* more. 

Companies like Woo make great off-the-shelf amps, but they have costs that a custom builder simply doesn't have - such as marketing and employment costs. Also, with a truly customizable custom amp, the parts (transformers, caps, etc) chosen are going to be better than those used in an off-the-shelf amp. I absolutely guarantee the parts used in my latest custom amp are better than those used in the WA33.

The one advantage off-the-shelf amps have is cost of scale. They can buy all their parts in bulk at a better price than a typical custom amp can buy them for.

My last two amps have been custom, and my third and final amp will also be custom.

I know I don't have an Oblivion, but I'd like to see all the custom builders on headfi do well.


----------



## UntilThen

Oblivion must be close to me now because I can smell it. 

I too like to see small custom builders do well but as this is a review, I have to put aside any bias. 

About 2 years ago, I was happily talking in my own thread when Glenn pop in and started talking to me. That’s how I became interested in a Glenn OTL amp. In those days, the Glenn thread was still pretty quiet and I was able to get my amp within 2 months. After I got my amp and started posting there, a lot of guys became interested and the GOTL took off.

So fast forward 2 years and I’m about to experience the Oblivion. Sentiments aside, as much as I would like it to do well, it has to sound good to my ears and with my gear. So we shall see ...


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> Sentiments aside, as much as I would like it to do well,* it has to sound good to my ears and with my gear. So we shall see ...*


No matter your experience, good or bad, everyone has different sound preferences as well as different gear, so everything needs to be heard in home on ones own gear which is very hard to do with custom builds. I too hope your experience is a positive one for you, but once again, this doesn't mean it will be for the next person due to these differences. I'm very interested in hearing the Citadel (in home) and was kindly offered to do so, but at my shipping expense round trip which would be +/-$500.00 IIRC, so I declined. Maybe one day in the future I'll have the opportunity once again and accept. Looking forward to reading you impression, enjoy.


----------



## BreadMaster

joseph69 said:


> No matter your experience, good or bad, everyone has different sound preferences as well as different gear, so everything needs to be heard in home on ones own gear which is very hard to do with custom builds. I too hope your experience is a positive one for you, but once again, this doesn't mean it will be for the next person due to these differences. I'm very interested in hearing the Citadel (in home) and was kindly offered to do so, but at my shipping expense round trip which would be +/-$500.00 IIRC, so I declined. Maybe one day in the future I'll have the opportunity once again and accept. Looking forward to reading you impression, enjoy.


Just do it~


----------



## UntilThen

No sign of Santa and the Oblivion he's supposed to send to me. I think he's held up in some traffic jam.


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> Looking forward to reading you impression, enjoy.



That's what I intend to do, if and when it gets here. Waiting for an amp's arrival less than 2 weeks before Christmas is probably not the best time of the year.


----------



## Phantaminum

UntilThen said:


> That's what I intend to do, if and when it gets here. Waiting for an amp's arrival less than 2 weeks before Christmas is probably not the best time of the year.



I’m sure Santa got held up for a few and is still on schedule to deliver your Christmas present.


----------



## UntilThen

Phantaminum said:


> I’m sure Santa got held up for a few and is still on schedule to deliver your Christmas present.



I hope it's not Billy Bob Thornton.


----------



## SonicTrance

Phantaminum said:


> I’m sure Santa got held up for a few and is still on schedule to deliver your Christmas present.


Yeah, it was supposed to be delivered two days ago. That time of the year I guess.


----------



## saman65

SonicTrance said:


> Yeah, it was supposed to be delivered two days ago. That time of the year I guess.



My Aeolus was scheduled for today, now it says Monday :/


----------



## SonicTrance

I have a thing for vintage test gear, especially the Heathkit stuff which I have quite a few items of. These are two instruments I recently got. It's a Harmonic distortion meter and an audio generator. 
I do have modern equipment as well but find it very satisfying to rebuild and calibrate this old test gear to work like new again!


 

Anyway, I'm posting because I wanted to ask if anyone is interested in me taking any THD measurements on Citadel with this fine piece of tech? It can measure down to 0.02% distortion, but the accuracy is +-5% of full scale +0.1%, lol. But still pretty damn accurate!


----------



## UntilThen

Oblivion arrived in Sydney. Awaiting custom clearance.


----------



## UntilThen

Back home for the holidays. Brought the audio gear back too. Oblivion has not been released from customs yet. Meanwhile just enjoying the Studio Six and Glenn OTL amp.


----------



## SonicTrance

Yeah, it's been a long 5 day delivery!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Yeah, it's been a long 5 day delivery!



It does seem a long time sitting in customs but on the car journey home to Sydney, I saw smoke and haze from the very bad bush fires that has been threatening the many states of Australia and the least I could do was not to complain.  In fact, the premier has just declared a state of emergency for NSW. The hot weather of summer has just started.

Now sitting in my study and enjoying the lovely tube tone of Verite with Studio Six, my mind is still on Oblivion. How will it sound with Verite? I have a feeling it will be great, the clarity and airiness of Oblivion is just what the Verite needs.

So as soon as I am notified that Oblivion has been released for delivery, I'll be making another trip to Canberra to pick it up. As it is, it could be just after Christmas.


----------



## UntilThen

While waiting for Oblivion to be released from captivity, I started reading this thread. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/modern-balanced-tube-amp-build.852879/page-2

This is where Sonic talks about Oblivion design which he has gotten from MrCurwen. Very technical stuff. None of it I understand nor do I need to. I'll just listen to music and if an amp makes it more enjoyable then I'm all for it. 

This statement caught my attention because I'm currently using those exact 3 drivers separately in my 3 tube amps. Tung Sol BGRP 6F8Gs in my Woo Audio WA22, Sylvania 6SN7W metal base in my Glenn OTL amp and Mullard ECC33 in my ALO Audio Studio Six. What co-incidence ! I do love these driver tubes a lot but Sonic is saying that in the Oblivion circuit, they don't sound any better than a russian 6N8S and I do have 6 of the 6N8S presently too. Now I'm really keen to get the Oblivion on my hands. Customs must be enjoying it at the moment. 


_I've tried TS BGRP 6F8G's, Sylvania 6SN7W metal base and even the Mullard ECC32 and 33. They don't sound any better than a russian 6N8S in this circuit. They all sound equally good! If there's a difference it's extremely small.
I've also used different tubes in the output stage. I started with 6C5G/6J5G's and then went to EL36's and finally to the 6BG6/6P7S's. They all sound equally good too. The 6C5G/6J5G's had too much gain though. I only settled on the 6BG6's cause I like the look. The EL36's sounds just as good.
_


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> This statement caught my attention because I'm currently using those exact 3 drivers separately in my 3 tube amps. Tung Sol BGRP 6F8Gs in my Woo Audio WA22, Sylvania 6SN7W metal base in my Glenn OTL amp and Mullard ECC33 in my ALO Audio Studio Six. What co-incidence ! I do love these driver tubes a lot but Sonic is saying that in the Oblivion circuit, they don't sound any better than a russian 6N8S and I do have 6 of the 6N8S presently too. Now I'm really keen to get the Oblivion on my hands. Customs must be enjoying it at the moment.


This is correct and is mostly referring to Citadel. But also Oblivion, mainly the output stage. First reviewer @Maxx134 noticed a slight change in presentation when rolling input tube (6AT6 in his amp, it'll be 6AV6 in yours). No tube amp is immune to tube rolling, but these amps are almost there. As long as the tube is in good condition it'll sound good as well. Clever design out-wins expensive parts!


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Now I'm really keen to get the Oblivion on my hands.


Remember though that you cannot use any other tube types than what the amp is designed for.


----------



## UntilThen

Yes I get that. Oblivion will be strictly for 6AV6 with EL81. Coming from my 3 tube amps where I can roll infinite variety of tubes, Oblivion will be a change. 

Not that I mind. I am kind of done with tube rolling after almost 3 years of having various tube amps. I haven't change the tubes in my 3 amps in the last couple of months.


----------



## UntilThen

I found this article on EL36 tubes. Australian design engineers are mentioned in it. http://home.alphalink.com.au/~cambie/EL36.htm  They seem to speak highly of these tubes. These valves were made at Philips Hendon works in South Australia or at the North Ryde AWV works in N.S.W. How interesting.

I cannot find any info on EL81 other than it's cheap and Telefunken brand.  https://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/el81/6cj6/cv2721-telefunken


----------



## SonicTrance

The EL81 is basically a noval version of the EL36. They behave the same in an amp. I actually like the EL81 more because they're all quiet. All the ones I've tried anyway.
6P31S (russian EL36) are also very quiet.


----------



## UntilThen

Looks like it's been released and send to FYSHWICK PDC in Canberra*. *Will make a trip to collect it tomorrow*. *A 600 kms return trip. Will have it on the 23rd of Dec 2019 just before Christmas !!!* 
*
Talk about timing.


----------



## Maxx134 (Dec 22, 2019)

SonicTrance said:


> .... @Maxx134 noticed a slight change in presentation when rolling *input tube* (6AT6 in his amp, it'll be 6AV6 in yours).


Yes, the tube you used for the input stage gave a great relaxed liquid presentation, but some listeners have made an incorrect assumption that it may sound a bit south of neutral on top end...

It was the choice of tube brand in the input stage.
I used same tube type, but switched to a different brand, from your European tube choice, to an American brand (CBS aka Sylvania rebranding) so I noted a more lively upper end which made it more perfect for me.

It should be noted that the amount of change from tube roll was incredibly slight, which is unusual and unique to these designs.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> I used same tube type, but switched to a different brand, from your European tube choice, to an American brand (CBS aka Sylvania rebranding) so I noted a more lively upper end which made it more perfect for me.



Perfect. Minute change in tone could be the deal breaker.    ..... and the 6AV6 are cheap to experiment. 

My mate in Canberra has pick up the amp and it's sitting in my 2nd home there. Will be setting off on a cruise drive to Canberra in the next 30 minutes. This is building up to an adventure. .... and I hope no bush fires on the way.


----------



## UntilThen

Made it home safe and sound with Oblivion. I did not expect the box to be this BIG. I thought I'm getting a solid state Krell amplifier. 

After almost 7 hours of driving to and fro, I got the amp home and I wasn't going to delay having a first listen. It's a box in a box. This packaging will withstand WW3. 

Finally got the amp out, removed all the wrappers, set it up on my large desk. First time I'm glad the desk is large because Oblivion is slightly bigger than Yggdrasil and Studio Six.... but it's light. Pretty light to my surprise. Next the tubes go in and I was careful that they go in correctly. Connection is via xlr inter connects between Yggdrasil and Oblivion and I strap on ZMF Verite open back headphone. First song is Telegraph Road by Dire Straits.

Dang..... this is love at first listen. What greeted my ears is pretty amazing tone. It was worth the wait of 2 months, worth the further wait for the amp to make it's way from Sweden to Sydney. Worth the wait for Customs to released the amp. Worth the 7 hours of driving to Canberra and get it back to Sydney, where it will remain for the next 2 weeks.

My first thoughts ... this is the best I've heard since I started this hobby with this combination of Yggdrasil, Oblivion and Verite. I don't think Christmas can get any better than this ! Now to return to more listening, as every song that I'm familiar with in the past takes on a whole new dimension.

Further impressions will be coming after I have more time with Oblivion and much later to try it with speakers too.


----------



## SonicTrance

Om glad it arrived safely in Australia!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Further impressions will be coming after I have more time with Oblivion and much later to try it with speakers too.



I'm interested to hear what you think, I do most of my listening through speakers with my lovely APPJ/Miniwatt.

BTW I hear those bush fires around Sydney will last well into next year due to the record hot summer there, you have my sympathy, it must be really terrible.


----------



## UntilThen (Dec 23, 2019)

baronbeehive said:


> I'm interested to hear what you think, I do most of my listening through speakers with my lovely APPJ/Miniwatt.



I'm a bit tickled pink when I read up on the APPJ/Miniwatt. Apparently it can drive some really big speakers.

Well I spend most of last night re-exploring my music with Yggdrasil > Oblivion > Verite. I went to bed at close to 2 am. It was that enjoyable.

This morning I did a one song comparison between Studio Six and Oblivion. Both connected to Yggdrasil. I listened to 'Six Bladed Knife' (Live at the BBC) Dire Straits. First up was Studio Six. Very good tone ! My head was bobbing at 8am. Studio Six was sporting Mullard ECC33, a pair of Brimar CV511 (6V6gt equivalent), Mullard OB2 and a Mullard GZ34 (Blackburn). Great tone from Studio Six.

On switching over to Oblivion, soundstage expanded width, depth and height and clarity / details stand out most. There's punch and immediacy with fast transient speed. At no time did it feel fatiguing at all. In fact it sounded like a tube amp but with astonishing clarity. Stereo imaging as a result is superb. I was won over by Oblivion that came out of the blue. To my ears, it sounded better than the Studio Six. Incredible !

Next I'm dying to hear how it sound through speakers - if it did drive speakers at all. 

So whilst still in my study, I hooked up a pair of Axis LS28 book shelf speakers rated at 88db sensitivity, 100w power handling, 8ohms impedance. There's no room for proper placement. I just want to hear if it can drive the speakers. I wasn't disappointed at all. Sounded beautiful at 12 noon on the volume dial. At 2pm, it was room filling loud and the LS28 bass is pumping through. A broad smile broke out on my face and I will be trying Oblivion in the lounge later with the floor standers Axis LS88.

So this is the 2nd quick impression and it's Christmas Eve !!!


----------



## UntilThen

I forget to say how captivated I was with those ampere meter. They are oversized and look stunning. Sonic gave me this instruction - _Wait for the tubes to heat up before applying signal (music) to the amp. You’ll see the meters go up to 30mA and a “swooshing” sound appears (if using headphones) for a few seconds. When the swooshing goes away you’re ready to go. 

 _


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> BTW I hear those bush fires around Sydney will last well into next year due to the record hot summer there, you have my sympathy, it must be really terrible.



Thanks very much for your sympathy. We have a bit of respite over Christmas with some light rain, then the hot summer temperatures will return. I have not seen the Harbour Bridge and Opera House looking so smokey. There will be no Christmas BBQ this year. Total fire ban. Fortunately I'm not banned from using my tube amps.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> I forget to say how captivated I was with those ampere meter. They are oversized and look stunning. Sonic gave me this instruction - _Wait for the tubes to heat up before applying signal (music) to the amp. You’ll see the meters go up to 30mA and a “swooshing” sound appears (if using headphones) for a few seconds. When the swooshing goes away you’re ready to go.
> 
> _


I'm enjoying reading your review. Can you post a close-up of those meters? I too wait for the meters to rise up on both my amps before I plug in the headphones. I think this feature is very useful.


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## UntilThen

leftside said:


> I'm enjoying reading your review. Can you post a close-up of those meters? I too wait for the meters to rise up on both my amps before I plug in the headphones. I think this feature is very useful.



Hey Leftside !!! Thanks very much for your kind comment. Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to myself. 

Here's the close up of the meters. They are very accurate, hovering at ~ 30mA.


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## UntilThen (Dec 23, 2019)

I'll be dammed. I never expect Oblivion to sound so good through a pair of conventional speakers. These are not even high efficiency speakers but Oblivion is driving them like an integrated amp. Sounding good with Verite and speakers, Oblivion looks like a perfect candidate for a desktop amp driving near field speakers. Heck I bet they will sound decent even with my big speakers - to be confirmed later.

Now I've them arranged a little better and the sound from the Axis LS28 is just pure gorgeous. I had expected it to sound clinical but it's not ! It's organic and oozes details. Bass is ample from these book shelf speakers. Now my dilemma is choosing whether to listen to Verite or the LS28.


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## UntilThen

Connections are of the garden variety consisting of a Isotek evo3 premier power cable, swap industries xlr interconnects and banana plugs for the speaker outs. Now playing 'Keith Don't Go' by Nils Lofgren. The over played song on every HiFi show in the past but the guitar works sounded brilliant here amplified by Oblivion. My book shelf speakers have that added zing to it now. It's crystal clear but the underlying tube tone is still prevalent. The resultant sound is beautifully executed. I'm supposed to prepare for tomorrow's Christmas Day dinner but I'm glued to my chair.


----------



## UntilThen

I just sat through putting this combination on 2 classical pieces. 1812 Overture in E-Flat Major .Op49 - Tchaikovsky and Die Walkure, Act III: Ride of the Valkyries - Richard Wagner. The clarity is astounding. The stage is wide and open. Classical has not sounded better.

Oblivion has a nice tube tone and is very open and clear. Prior to hearing Oblivion, I had the impression that it's lean and bright. I couldn't have been more wrong. I was also under the assumption that the bass is polite and lacking. Again I was so wrong. Oblivion will reveal your gear as they are and according to the music you're listening to. Next I'll put it through some heavy hitters and hear how it sound.


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## UntilThen (Dec 24, 2019)

Any doubts that Oblivion can rock hard is put to rest with AC/DC Thunderstruck and Metallica Enter Sandman. I have not heard Verite pounding this hard. Impedance switch set to high is the key. Oblivion is a muscle amp. I don't know what Sonic puts in it. Volume dial is between 10 and 11am and Verite is loud.


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## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Any doubts that Oblivion can rock hard is put to rest with AC/DC Thunderstruck and Metallica Enter Sandman. I have not heard Verite pounding this hard. Impedance switch set to high is the key. Oblivion is a muscle amp. I don't know what Sonic puts in it.


Haha great! I was just wondering if you've tried the impedance switch yet!

I'm looking forward to hearing your impressions with your floorstanders!

Merry Christmas, or whatever else anyone might be celebrating!


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## UntilThen

I'm also dying to try it with my floor standers which is 91db sensitivity @1 meter (2.83 volts). Just got this off John Reilly, the creator of my Axis LS88 floorstanders. It so happens he text and wish me Merry Christmas. 

The problem is Verite is sounding so good now it's hard to put it aside. I'm now listening to Daft Punk - Random Access Memory.

One other thing I discovered is that the spike feet are adjustable in height. When I first place it on the table, it was not level or the table's not level. So I place a 10 cent coin under the feet of the front right spike. Now that I know how to adjust the feet, the coin is taken out .... forever ! Good idea on the spike feet Sonic !


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## UntilThen

I will remember 24th Dec 2019 because I heard one of the best rendition of 'Stairways To Heaven'. Boy am I glad I have 2 weeks off to indulge in pure Oblivion. 

I could not stop listening to songs after songs. It's like I'm rediscovering Yggdrasil and Verite and all my music on hard drive played back on JR River 24 and Tidal HiFi. This is decadence living one day before Christmas. And this is before I bring in Rega RP8 to critical duty.


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## baronbeehive (Dec 24, 2019)

UntilThen said:


> ... the sound from the Axis LS28 is just pure gorgeous. I had expected it to sound clinical but it's not ! It's organic and oozes details.



That's right that's just what this amp was designed to do... now do you believe lol!



SonicTrance said:


> Haha great! I was just wondering if you've tried the impedance switch yet!
> 
> I'm looking forward to hearing your impressions with your floorstanders!
> 
> Merry Christmas, or whatever else anyone might be celebrating!



Me too, looking forward to your impressions. I don't have floorstanders, I'm not a massive fan of huge sub bass what I get out of my standmounts is enough for me.

I was interested in the effects of the impedance switch too, on my Little Dot I did think it made a slight difference in the area of bass quantity.

Merry Christmas all! .


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## SonicTrance

baronbeehive said:


> That's right that's just what this amp was designed to do... now do you believe lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi baron! 
Great to hear from you! The impedance mod we did with the LD didn't really affect the output impedance but rather optimize the WCF to a given load, using the Cavalli formula.
The impedance switch in Oblivion is purely an output impedance switch. Just another tap on the OT's.


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## baronbeehive (Dec 24, 2019)

SonicTrance said:


> Hi baron!
> Great to hear from you! The impedance mod we did with the LD didn't really affect the output impedance but rather optimize the WCF to a given load, using the Cavalli formula.
> The impedance switch in Oblivion is purely an output impedance switch. Just another tap on the OT's.



Hi Sonic!

Yes, right, I have 3 options on the APPJ for output impedance: 4, 6 and 8 ohms, a very handy feature!I'm interested to hear from UntilThen but I think the output impedance would primarily affect bass response, - as well as general output level for different sensitivity speakers of course -, as this is probably the most likely frequency to suffer from output mismatch, because it needs tight controI otherwise it might go flabby. Don't know if you would agree on this? It doesn't take much to affect bass whereas you might be able to get away with it without noticing for the other frequencies.


----------



## UntilThen

Switching to high impedance just boost everything. Conversely switching to low impedance just makes everything softer. It's quite a mark difference.


----------



## UntilThen

Merry Christmas all.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Made it home safe and sound with Oblivion. I did not expect the box to be this BIG. I thought I'm getting a solid state Krell amplifier.
> 
> After almost 7 hours of driving to and fro, I got the amp home and I wasn't going to delay having a first listen. It's a box in a box. This packaging will withstand WW3.
> 
> ...




Hey Matt.

Great looking amp!


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Hey Matt.
> 
> Great looking amp!



Hi Joe, for the last 2 months (while waiting for the amp to arrive) that's what I thought too but now all I'm feeling is it's a great sounding amp with Verite. Main characteristics are clarity, details, wide soundstage, fast transients with just the right touch of tube tone. 

It's also driving the speakers beautifully. Best of all, I have no tubes to change. Just flick on the power switch and listen to music.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Hi Joe, for the last 2 months (while waiting for the amp to arrive) that's what I thought too but now all I'm feeling is it's a great sounding amp with Verite. Main characteristics are clarity, details, wide soundstage, fast transients with just the right touch of tube tone.
> 
> It's also driving the speakers beautifully. Best of all, I have no tubes to change. Just flick on the power switch and listen to music.




Thanks for the main characteristics of the amp.
It is great too see when an amp can do both cans and speakers and do them both well.
Makes for a great option for people, and custom amp to boot.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Great looking amp!



The interior is just as beautiful. Symmetrical. 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/page-11#post-15337060


----------



## joseph69

I'm growing more and more interested in putting the Citadel side by side against my WA33.


----------



## leftside

A Citadel could go on a tour.... and then I can compare to the other customs amps I have: Glenn 300B and 1101 V6.


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## UntilThen

Good morning all on a Christmas Day !!! 

Do it @joseph69 . More opinions will be welcomed.

A Citadel tour hehe @leftside . Would be nice but a heavy investment for Sonic.

I want to sit down to listen to music again this morning but alas I have other duties.... so till later.


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## BreadMaster

joseph69 said:


> I'm growing more and more interested in putting the Citadel side by side against my WA33.


Please do!


----------



## UntilThen

It is not everyday that an amp comes along that defies my expectations but Oblivion did just that today.

It is making the Axis LS88 floorstanders sing to a very comfortable loud level without losing control and sounding like an expensive integrated amp.

How did this Oblivion come out of no where? More to come later with pictures.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> Do it @joseph69 . More opinions will be welcomed.


I just may very well be doing this after the holidays, as long as my invitation from @SonicTrance is still open?


----------



## UntilThen

Just played a few LPs. Love Over Gold by Dire Straits, A Deeper Understanding by War On Drugs, The Wall by Pink Floyd. It's a very enjoyable sound using Oblivion. Open, clear, airy and the bass is how it should be. With impact without being overdone. There's a snappiness to the tone and it's lively. No trace or hint of glare. As with headphone, what's coming from the speakers exhibit a nice tube tone with very good details and imaging. Depending on the recording of the LPs, Oblivion's volume knob hovers around 12 to 3 pm for my usual comfortably loud level without destroying my ears. That's something I wouldn't do. The ears are more precious than any gear. 

The intent wasn't to replace the 265w 4 ohms Regum Rgi120enr black series with Oblivion for stereo duties but the latter was very enjoying doing just that. The Axis LS88 floorstanders is 300w capable power handling, 4 ohms and 91db sensitivity @ 1 meter and Oblivion was driving it with no lost of fidelity. I was actually enjoying listening to those LPs. 

Now for a few photos...


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## joseph69

@UntilThen 
No rush, but when you get the time, could please provide more impressions between the Oblivian, AOL, Glenn and Woo with your current headphone inventory? Thank you.


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## UntilThen (Dec 24, 2019)

joseph69 said:


> @UntilThen
> No rush, but when you get the time, could please provide more impressions between the Oblivian, AOL, Glenn and Woo with your current headphone inventory? Thank you.



Sure Joseph but that will have to come after Christmas otherwise I could be served instead of the turkey on the dinner table tonight for the Christmas family get together. 

In the meantime, I left Oblivion sitting in the lounge and have adjourned to the study for some music listening with the Glenn OTL amp. Here is a picture and I think it looks beautiful but the GOTL isn't driving the speakers.  There are obvious differences between Oblivion and GOTL but I'll touch on that after Christmas when I've done more attentive listening with more music selections. Suffice to say that I'm missing Oblivion already and want to bring it back to the study but it's too much to carry to and fro. Remember I could be the roast turkey if I muck around more with the head-fi gear on Christmas day !!!


----------



## UntilThen

Here's another picture of me going through some of my LPs. I had to vacate the lounge because the family wanted to watch a Christmas movie on the TV.... and I wanted to listen to my music. Such is life when you're into this hobby. Now you know why I have to use headphones which fortunately I love just as much.


----------



## Phantaminum

UntilThen said:


> Just played a few LPs. Love Over Gold by Dire Straits, A Deeper Understanding by War On Drugs, The Wall by Pink Floyd. It's a very enjoyable sound using Oblivion. Open, clear, airy and the bass is how it should be. With impact without being overdone. There's a snappiness to the tone and it's lively. No trace or hint of glare. As with headphone, what's coming from the speakers exhibit a nice tube tone with very good details and imaging. Depending on the recording of the LPs, Oblivion's volume knob hovers around 12 to 3 pm for my usual comfortably loud level without destroying my ears. That's something I wouldn't do. The ears are more precious than any gear.
> 
> The intent wasn't to replace the 265w 4 ohms Regum Rgi120enr black series with Oblivion for stereo duties but the latter was very enjoying doing just that. The Axis LS88 floorstanders is 300w capable power handling, 4 ohms and 91db sensitivity @ 1 meter and Oblivion was driving it with no lost of fidelity. I was actually enjoying listening to those LPs.
> 
> Now for a few photos...



Lol, I'm looking at the pics and chuckling at the amount of space it takes.

Well worth it though.


----------



## joseph69

@UntilThen 
Thank you very much. Glad to read you impressions are very positive.
Go enjoy your turkey before they carve you up!


----------



## UntilThen

Phantaminum said:


> Lol, I'm looking at the pics and chuckling at the amount of space it takes.
> 
> Well worth it though.



I wanted to show how wide the soundstage is .... we are talking wide space


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> It is not everyday that an amp comes along that defies my expectations but Oblivion did just that today.
> 
> It is making the Axis LS88 floorstanders sing to a very comfortable loud level without losing control and sounding like an expensive integrated amp.



Yes, I could have told you that! The real test was your standmounts at 88db, and that went well so it was obviously going to be a piece of cake with your floorstanders at 91db.

Maxx134 tested the Oblivion maxed out and so another good test would be to see if the sound is still good at lower levels with still everything there, details etc. Maybe you could let us know what you think, I see you like fairly high volume levels. How big is your room? Also what is the sound signature of your speakers, warm, neutral or what? I doubt the Oblivion would have a problem whatever the sound.

Also a comparison with your main amp perhaps as high powered amps can come with their own problems.

Look forward to further impressions after you've polished off the turkey... and your family let you back into the lounge… or should I say music room lol!


----------



## SonicTrance

joseph69 said:


> I just may very well be doing this after the holidays, as long as my invitation from @SonicTrance is still open?


Sorry I missed your post.
I got one Citadel to build now and one Oblivion pending. If things starts to quiet down again we can do it, no problem. As long as I got people ordering that has to come first. I'm sure you understand.


----------



## omniweltall

Sound comparison between Oblivion and Citadel would be most welcome.


----------



## joseph69

SonicTrance said:


> Sorry I missed your post.
> I got one Citadel to build now and one Oblivion pending. If things starts to quiet down again we can do it, no problem. As long as I got people ordering that has to come first. I'm sure you understand.


Thank you very much for leaving the offer open. 
I totally understand that the customers come first. I'll PM you after the holidays.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Sorry I missed your post.
> I got one Citadel to build now and one Oblivion pending. If things starts to quiet down again we can do it, no problem. As long as I got people ordering that has to come first. I'm sure you understand.



I survive Christmas Day and it's now Boxing Day. 

I'm not surprised you have orders going because what I'm hearing now in Oblivion is certainly value for money for the price.

Christmas present for me from the family is this doubles Beatles LP.


----------



## UntilThen

After a short demo of Oblivion with the Axis LS88 floorstanders, it's back to the study. Whilst it will drive the LS88 to acceptable level, it doesn't do justice to those speakers. Putting the Redgum back confirms that. Even my son commented that the Redgum texture and impact makes a big difference as compared to Oblivion. Clearly I prefer the overall sound from the main amp but this is not unexpected. I don't think this exercise is to do a meaningful comparison between Oblivion and my main amps. I haven't even pull out my behemoth Sansui alpha amps. Oblivion sounded thin in comparison albeit very clear - which is good on the newly acquired Beatles No.1 album.

Lounge size is 6 x 4 metres. Carpeted floor and curtains makes for a good acoustics room. Even John Reilly commented on that when he came over to listen to my system. LS88 is a classic years ago. It's more of a British sound. It's not bright but the top end is revealing. Bass can go really low and when the bass drops (driven by the Redgum), you will feel the music, not just hear it. 

So yeah, I was just interested to know if Oblivion could actually drive the floorstanders. At lower volume levels the details are lost. Bring it up to 12 noon and beyond and that's when you start to think that the Oblivion is quite remarkable. 

Note: However I was very pleased with Oblivion driving the Axis LS28 book shelf. At near field listening, it was enjoyable and the tone is articulate. Those book shelf speakers never sounded so clear and involving at close range. John Reilly did a good job with these speakers.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> After a short demo of Oblivion with the Axis LS88 floorstanders, it's back to the study. Whilst it will drive the LS88 to acceptable level, it doesn't do justice to those speakers. Putting the Redgum back confirms that. Even my son commented that the Redgum texture and impact makes a big difference as compared to Oblivion. Clearly I prefer the overall sound from the main amp but this is not unexpected. I don't think this exercise is to do a meaningful comparison between Oblivion and my main amps. I haven't even pull out my behemoth Sansui alpha amps. Oblivion sounded thin in comparison albeit very clear - which is good on the newly acquired Beatles No.1 album.
> 
> Lounge size is 6 x 4 metres. Carpeted floor and curtains makes for a good acoustics room. Even John Reilly commented on that when he came over to listen to my system. LS88 is a classic years ago. It's more of a British sound. It's not bright but the top end is revealing. Bass can go really low and when the bass drops (driven by the Redgum), you will feel the music, not just hear it.
> 
> ...


Can the Oblivion be used as a preamp for the Redgum?


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Can the Oblivion be used as a preamp for the Redgum?



Hey there Mordy. The model that was send to me has speakers out. For some reasons, Sonic says you can either have preamp or speakers out and not both. Pre-amp out to the Redgum might be interesting. I think it will be a good balance.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Hey there Mordy. The model that was send to me has speakers out. For some reasons, Sonic says you can either have preamp or speakers out and not both. Pre-amp out to the Redgum might be interesting. I think it will be a good balance.


What would happen if you used the headphone jack as preamp out?


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## SonicTrance (Dec 26, 2019)

UntilThen said:


> Hey there Mordy. The model that was send to me has speakers out. For some reasons, Sonic says you can either have preamp or speakers out and not both. Pre-amp out to the Redgum might be interesting. I think it will be a good balance.


It's a matter of space. I can't fit both speaker outputs and pre-amp outputs in the same amp.

Does Redgum have balanced inputs? If it does you can use the speaker outputs or even the headphone jack to feed Redgum.

All outputs on Oblivion are balanced so there needs to be a balanced input for this to work.

Edit: I realized that if I have both the speaker outputs and pre-amp outs on the same switch at the front, and there's only one set of input jacks, I could fit both speaker-, pre-amp outs and impedance switch on the same amp.
Just thought I'd mention that.


----------



## baronbeehive (Dec 26, 2019)

UntilThen said:


> Lounge size is 6 x 4 metres. Carpeted floor and curtains makes for a good acoustics room. Even John Reilly commented on that when he came over to listen to my system. LS88 is a classic years ago. It's more of a British sound. It's not bright but the top end is revealing. Bass can go really low and when the bass drops (driven by the Redgum), you will feel the music, not just hear it.
> 
> So yeah, I was just interested to know if Oblivion could actually drive the floorstanders. At lower volume levels the details are lost. Bring it up to 12 noon and beyond and that's when you start to think that the Oblivion is quite remarkable.



Yes, fairly large room. Interesting that the floorstanders could be driven with all that sub bass draining power out. Obviously matching equipment is most important so I would imagine that something like the Zu, Tekton, or Triton speakers, or something around 95db would be an excellent pairing. Unfortunately I don't have these so can only speculate. It would be interesting to see what the Citadel is like as someone has said.

The low volume test is perhaps not a fair test as inevitably much of the music will be lost the lower down you go but for someone who likes listening at moderate levels it is good to knnow if it still sounds good at moderate levels.

Edit: My Miniwatt, rated at only 3.5W has more than enough power to drive my 87db speakers in a medium sized room, which I find quite surprising. I never go past 12 oclock volume so clearly low power systems work well, especially when matched up properly.


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## baronbeehive (Dec 26, 2019)

UntilThen said:


> Christmas present for me from the family is this doubles Beatles LP.



I noticed your music on display btw…excellent gift... I have all the Beatles albums remastered. Tangerine Dream, Pink Floyd and Dire Straits are all favourites of mine. Have you heard Tangerine Dream Exit, Pink Floyd Pulse and Dire Straits On Every Street out of interest, I have these myself. Sorry if I've gone off topic a bit but I can't help discussing music, especially from the prog rock era lol!
.


----------



## MrCurwen

One of my clients eventually gave up my balanced amp because he enjoyed seriously loud volumes with no-so-effective-speakers. The design makes 1 watt go a surprisingly long distance, much longer than most would think, but there are physical limits. 

Mainly, the Ia thru the output tubes. The sensation of audible power would be enhanced if there were more current swing capability. But, that opens up a bunch of other problems, which is why I personally just resigned to using the amp as it is, with it's limitations. I use my amp with big full sized speakers every day, but with moderate volume. At moderate volumes the sound is 'perfect' to my personal tastes, comparable to headphones (with obvious limitations).

Also if the output impedance driving the OT primary were lower, then bass transients would be "more powerful", i.e. the waveform wouldn't bend. The output impedance is determined by two components, the top FET (which as a follower can output some 10 to 50 ohms, depending on the exact type used) and the bottom tube (again, depending on type some hundreds to a couple k ohms output impedance, I think the common TV tubes are around 800 to 1200 ohms).

Now that 1k output impedance is going to bend the big bass waveform much sooner than say a 100 ohm output impedance, or a 20 ohm output impedance.

I did some things to try and go around this, they worked, but created a world of new problems. In the end I personally (I think Sonic agrees as well) think it's better to just accept the limitations and use the amp at moderate listening levels.


Sonic has done really well, the amps look simply amazing and well built. I'm a mad scientist type, my builds look... mad. 

Buy amps from Sonic, I want my design to spread to all corners of the Earth.


----------



## MrCurwen

Comment regarding tube rolling:

The amp is 'immune' to tube rolling, as far as the tubes that are substituted have exactly the same curves.

So in effect the amp is not at all immune to tube rolling, since no two tubes in existance actually have physically identical curves!

I'm just being silly here. If you get two high quality tubes of the same type, say Tesla or military Soviet, that come from the same factory, same decade, they will have 97 to 99.5 % same curves.

Now take a Tesla high quality tube from the early 1960's, and a crappy RCA tube from the late 1970's... Yes they will sound different, because they have very different build quality and the curves WILL BE different.

But, within reasonable limits, i.e. using similar quality tubes, the differences will be almost nonexistent.

If some tube sounds "more top heavy" or "clearer" that is because it has a different inner capacitance between the control grid and the anode. 

Generally more pronounced in triodes, since the 'anode' in a triode connected tetrode or pentode is actually a grid, which has nonexistent capacitance compared to a solid anode of a triode. So, EL81 and EL36, while clearly having differing inner geometry (just look at the elements with your eyes), sound much more similar, because the g1 to g2 capacitance is in both cases similar, nonexistent.

Of course capacitance affects 'tone', linearity is another matter. But those TV tubes are all superbly linear. Also superb in durability, they were made to withstand huge repeating current pulses without melting.


----------



## MrCurwen

So: roll the input tubes if you are so inclined. Output tube rolling with triode connected tetrodes will not do anything.


----------



## SonicTrance

Hey MrCurwen, great to hear from you it's been a long time!



MrCurwen said:


> One of my clients eventually gave up my balanced amp because he enjoyed seriously loud volumes with no-so-effective-speakers. The design makes 1 watt go a surprisingly long distance, much longer than most would think, but there are physical limits.
> 
> Mainly, the Ia thru the output tubes. The sensation of audible power would be enhanced if there were more current swing capability. But, that opens up a bunch of other problems, which is why I personally just resigned to using the amp as it is, with it's limitations. I use my amp with big full sized speakers every day, but with moderate volume. At moderate volumes the sound is 'perfect' to my personal tastes, comparable to headphones (with obvious limitations).



It does! I have these amps biased to put out about 2W peak into 8 ohms. 

I also use my amps with speakers, more than with headphones actually. But that's mainly because I listen to music while tinkering, lol.



MrCurwen said:


> I did some things to try and go around this, they worked, but created a world of new problems. In the end I personally (I think Sonic agrees as well) think it's better to just accept the limitations and use the amp at moderate listening levels.


Indeed. I did adopt those workarounds in the beginning but could not for the life of me get the amp stable. I still think I can listen pretty damn loud without distortions with my 89db floor standers. Loud enough anyways.  



MrCurwen said:


> Sonic has done really well, the amps look simply amazing and well built. I'm a mad scientist type, my builds look... mad.
> 
> Buy amps from Sonic, I want my design to spread to all corners of the Earth.


Thanks man! I really appreciate that!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Yes, fairly large room. Interesting that the floorstanders could be driven with all that sub bass draining power out. Obviously matching equipment is most important so I would imagine that something like the Zu, Tekton, or Triton speakers, or something around 95db would be an excellent pairing. Unfortunately I don't have these so can only speculate. It would be interesting to see what the Citadel is like as someone has said.
> 
> The low volume test is perhaps not a fair test as inevitably much of the music will be lost the lower down you go but for someone who likes listening at moderate levels it is good to knnow if it still sounds good at moderate levels.
> 
> Edit: My Miniwatt, rated at only 3.5W has more than enough power to drive my 87db speakers in a medium sized room, which I find quite surprising. I never go past 12 oclock volume so clearly low power systems work well, especially when matched up properly.



I did not think that high efficiency speakers such as Zu or Omega are needed with Oblivion because the amp is driving both LS28 and LS88 to moderately loud levels which most people would listen at. At that volume level, the details and imaging are very good. Bass is taut and tight. I'm not much of a bass head so I actually find such tonality quite pleasing to my ears. Sure it's different to the full on effect of my main amp but it's a good variation.


----------



## UntilThen

MrCurwen said:


> I did some things to try and go around this, they worked, but created a world of new problems. In the end I personally (I think Sonic agrees as well) think it's better to just accept the limitations and use the amp at moderate listening levels.



I agree on this too. Use the amp at moderate listening levels (which most of us do anyway) and it's enjoyable. Love the clarity and details. Soundstage is wide and open. I love all these traits.


----------



## leftside

You'll read a lot on other forums (especially the McIntosh forums) about how much power you'll need from amps to drive speakers well. I simply don't believe it. My speakers are low efficiency at 85db, and some people thought my tube amps at 75 watts (measure at 90 watts) might not be enough... Maybe if my listening room was very large it might be an issue, but with my current listening room and the preamp volume at half way, It's already starting to get uncomfortable to listen to.


----------



## UntilThen

MrCurwen said:


> Comment regarding tube rolling:
> 
> The amp is 'immune' to tube rolling, as far as the tubes that are substituted have exactly the same curves.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this most informative discourse on tubes. I think my days of tube rolling are over. The RCA 6AV6 and Siemens EL81 that Sonic send me sounds perfect. I've no inclination to swap to a different brand of the same type.


----------



## SonicTrance

leftside said:


> You'll read a lot on other forums (especially the McIntosh forums) about how much power you'll need from amps to drive speakers well. I simply don't believe it. My speakers are low efficiency at 85db, and some people thought my tube amps at 75 watts (measure at 90 watts) might not be enough... Maybe if my listening room was very large it might be an issue, but with my current listening room and the preamp volume at half way, It's already starting to get uncomfortable to listen to.


Indeed! Some amps need more power headroom though (not sure about the McIntosch amps) for recovery after heavy transient peaks. These amps recover very quickly since they're open loop, no gNFB. So they don't need a large headroom.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I noticed your music on display btw…excellent gift... I have all the Beatles albums remastered. Tangerine Dream, Pink Floyd and Dire Straits are all favourites of mine. Have you heard Tangerine Dream Exit, Pink Floyd Pulse and Dire Straits On Every Street out of interest, I have these myself. Sorry if I've gone off topic a bit but I can't help discussing music, especially from the prog rock era lol!
> .



You are right up my alley.  You have the same interest in those music. 

With Yggdrasil > Oblivion > Verite, I'm on an exploratory journey with music. I'm listening to Mahler Symphony No.2 in C Minor. I could be listening to classical more now because the details, imaging and width and depth of soundstaging is tantalising. I just glance at the volume knob and it's at just 9am (a quarter) but the clarity and details shone right through.


----------



## MrCurwen

leftside, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, just between you and me here:

Output power wattage is not the most important factor in how you perceive the audible power (the physical sensation of power) of your system. Sure, it's a factor in there, but it's not the most important one.

What is the most important factor?

Transients.

How your amp handles transients is what determines if it sounds 'powerful' or 'weak'.

What you need to do is try out a 1 or 2 W amp with overkill transient control methods in place. 2W RMS is overkill in my personal opinion, I think my workhorse sims out at about 0.9W RMS bit more peak.


----------



## MrCurwen

Test transients with modern music, say one song I actually also like to listen to for fun is Die Antwoord - I Fink U Freeky.

Or, in a less musical fashion, Bangarang by Skrillex. There's some nice looking waveforms for you if you do the scope thing.


Of course, just using a beat up old vinyl is one way to go. The scratches are transients. The less you notice the scratches, the better the transient recovery is.

Using the same design methods, a superb RIAA corrector could also be made. I've done a few in my time, none put together currently. The old records became 'descratched' thru that corrector.


----------



## UntilThen

I left these Axis Voicebox S monitors back in Canberra. I think I will go back and get it in the next few days. I want to see if Oblivion will drive it. It's 85db, 5ohms and capable of handling the same power as the LS88 floorstanders.

In this picture I'm driving it with the big Sansui au-alpha 907mr amp.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I left these Axis Voicebox S monitors back in Canberra. I think I will go back and get it in the next few days. I want to see if Oblivion will drive it. It's 85db, 5ohms and capable of handling the same power as the LS88 floorstanders.
> 
> In this picture I'm driving it with the big Sansui au-alpha 907mr amp.


Another 7h trip then!  

Oblivion will drive them but not as loud as the more sensitive speakers.


----------



## UntilThen

7 hours could be put to better use.  Today I'll start the comparison between Studio Six and Oblivion. Will step through a repertoire of songs. Source is the common Tidal HiFi at 44.1 khz sample rate fed into Yggdrasil and headphone is ZMF Verite Open. I expect to do this for a day.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> It's a matter of space. I can't fit both speaker outputs and pre-amp outputs in the same amp.
> 
> Does Redgum have balanced inputs? If it does you can use the speaker outputs or even the headphone jack to feed Redgum.
> 
> ...



My Sansui au-Alpha 907mr is a balanced amp but to connect Oblivion speakers out to the xlr balanced input of the Sansui means I need a cable with those terminations on each end. 

However that is not a priority at the moment - to use Oblivion as a preamp because this battle of tone between Studio Six and Oblivion is getting really interesting. I've not heard 2 headphone amps sounding this lovely with Verite. Besides there's no one home today... which means I'll be taking Oblivion out to the lounge to drive the floorstanders later. I want to go through more of my LPs. It goes without saying that with stereo speakers listening, you get real soundstage and not headstage.


----------



## UntilThen

Off the speakers go because this is the battle of the headphone amps.  I will state here that these amps are not of the lush, bloomy variety. They are fleet footed, fast transients, speed, bass is tight and taut, varying degrees of midrange sweetness, varying impact of mid and sub bass. Varying degrees of treble extensions. Soundstage varies obviously. None of them are fatiguing or glaring. No space to include the Woo Audio WA22. Besides Yggy can only output to 3 amps. 

 

This is what I mean tight and taut.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> My Sansui au-Alpha 907mr is a balanced amp but to connect Oblivion speakers out to the xlr balanced input of the Sansui means I need a cable with those terminations on each end.
> 
> However that is not a priority at the moment - to use Oblivion as a preamp because this battle of tone between Studio Six and Oblivion is getting really interesting. I've not heard 2 headphone amps sounding this lovely with Verite. Besides there's no one home today... which means I'll be taking Oblivion out to the lounge to drive the floorstanders later. I want to go through more of my LPs. It goes without saying that with stereo speakers listening, you get real soundstage and not headstage.


You can take a (cheap) XLR cable and cut the connectors off on one side and use the bare wires to connect to the speaker jacks, and then XLR on the other end to the Sansui. Not very elegant perhaps but it would work. But, like you say, not a priority just thought I'd mention it.


----------



## SonicTrance

@UntilThen
Here's a somewhat different question. What's your opinion about the pilot light? Is it too bright, not enough bright or just right? It's something I've been tinkering quite a lot with believe it or not


----------



## baronbeehive (Dec 27, 2019)

MrCurwen said:


> Test transients with modern music, say one song I actually also like to listen to for fun is Die Antwoord - I Fink U Freeky.
> 
> Or, in a less musical fashion, Bangarang by Skrillex. There's some nice looking waveforms for you if you do the scope thing.



Well... I doubt if Die Antwoord would sound good on any amp frankly…. I'm joking MrCurwen!



MrCurwen said:


> One of my clients eventually gave up my balanced amp because he enjoyed seriously loud volumes with no-so-effective-speakers. The design makes 1 watt go a surprisingly long distance, much longer than most would think, but there are physical limits.
> 
> Mainly, the Ia thru the output tubes. The sensation of audible power would be enhanced if there were more current swing capability. But, that opens up a bunch of other problems, which is why I personally just resigned to using the amp as it is, with it's limitations. I use my amp with big full sized speakers every day, but with moderate volume. At moderate volumes the sound is 'perfect' to my personal tastes, comparable to headphones (with obvious limitations).



I agree what is the point of excessively loud, furniture rattling volume levels for normal listening.




MrCurwen said:


> I did some things to try and go around this, they worked, but created a world of new problems. In the end I personally (I think Sonic agrees as well) think it's better to just accept the limitations and use the amp at moderate listening levels.



I appreciate your current design philosophy - low, stable power, low parasitics - open loop - transient recovery - components well within their operating parameters - the right components for the right job - hyrid design, and so on, but was wondering in view of what you said if you ever designed a higher power amp in the past such as the 3.5W Miniwatt which I know you view as overkill.

I was interested in UntilThen's impressions of his main amp in comparison to the Oblivion, because of the differences that SS amps and open loop tube amps can show in sound characteristics such as soundstage, bass performance and such like. He has already alluded to some of these differences and they are pretty much what I would have expected.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Off the speakers go because this is the battle of the headphone amps.  I will state here that these amps are not of the lush, bloomy variety. They are fleet footed, fast transients, speed, bass is tight and taut, varying degrees of midrange sweetness, varying impact of mid and sub bass. Varying degrees of treble extensions. Soundstage varies obviously. None of them are fatiguing or glaring. No space to include the Woo Audio WA22. Besides Yggy can only output to 3 amps.



That's fine, I'm probably speaking for most of us here, we like the transparent sound. Personally I like a touch of sweetness too.

Can't wait for your impressions! Several of the albums mentioned previously are well produced and would sound great on the amps I'm sure.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> @UntilThen
> Here's a somewhat different question. What's your opinion about the pilot light? Is it too bright, not enough bright or just right? It's something I've been tinkering quite a lot with believe it or not



I don't look at the amps when I'm listening to music. I've a L-shaped office desk in my study. The monitor is on the other side. It's where I interact with Tidal, JR River. On the other side, is Yggy and the 3 amps.

A orange light to match the glow from the tubes might be better. It's a white light now - similar to the Yggdrasil on the right. Either way it's a moot point for me.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> That's fine, I'm probably speaking for most of us here, we like the transparent sound. Personally I like a touch of sweetness too.
> 
> Can't wait for your impressions! Several of the albums mentioned previously are well produced and would sound great on the amps I'm sure.



At 2 am on the 28th of Dec 2019, I got up and listen to Endless River by Pink Floyd and Fear in A Handful of Dust by Amon Tobin. Some songs I repeat through each of the 3 amps. Eventually after an hour I settle down to enjoy the music on Oblivion. Tomorrow morning I leave with my wife for a beach house up the coast for the weekend with some friends. I'll return on Sunday night and spend another 2 days listening before writing my impressions on New Year's Eve. It's the start of the new decade. A momentous point in time.  

There are no bad amps here. I would have been happy to settle down with any one of these amps if I were to have only one amp but Oblivion stood out for a number of characteristics that makes listening to music holographic, even surreal.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I don't look at the amps when I'm listening to music. I've a L-shaped office desk in my study. The monitor is on the other side. It's where I interact with Tidal, JR River. On the other side, is Yggy and the 3 amps.
> 
> A orange light to match the glow from the tubes might be better. It's a white light now - similar to the Yggdrasil on the right. Either way it's a moot point for me.


Ok fair enough. I think a lot about aesthetic details like that. Of course sound is more important but nevertheless


----------



## cskippy

I'm curious how bright the LED is compared to Schiit products.  I find Schiit LEDs to be a tad too intense and I frequently use LightDim stickers to attenuate the light.  I say, as long as you can tell it's on in daylight that's bright enough.


----------



## UntilThen

Oblivion's pilot light is brighter and bigger than Schiit's lights. I can't look at it directly. It will hurt the eyes. Tone it down would be better if you can't change the colour.


----------



## UntilThen

The slr is in Canberra so I've to make do with my iphone x. With the lights off, Oblivion looks beautiful.


----------



## SonicTrance

Nice pic!  

I'll tone the pilot light down some more. I'm only feeding it 2.5V as it is (it's a 12V LED). I can make it less bright though.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> At 2 am on the 28th of Dec 2019, I got up and listen to Endless River by Pink Floyd and Fear in A Handful of Dust by Amon Tobin. Some songs I repeat through each of the 3 amps. Eventually after an hour I settle down to enjoy the music on Oblivion. Tomorrow morning I leave with my wife for a beach house up the coast for the weekend with some friends. I'll return on Sunday night and spend another 2 days listening before writing my impressions on New Year's Eve. It's the start of the new decade. A momentous point in time.
> 
> There are no bad amps here. I would have been happy to settle down with any one of these amps if I were to have only one amp but Oblivion stood out for a number of characteristics that makes listening to music holographic, even surreal.



Fantastic!

Sounds like a great year in store!
.


----------



## UntilThen

Back from the beach house. The traffic jam along the way is incredible. Sydney despite the bush fires is still incredibly good looking.


----------



## UntilThen

I did a lot of comparisons between Studio Six, Glenn OTL amp and Oblivion. A clear favourite is appearing but the report will be published on New Year's eve. 

Meanwhile I'm back to 2 amps comparison and also reinstate the speakers to Oblivion. 

I can't believe how good Oblivion is making these speakers sound. There are the obvious traits. Clarity and details. Soundstage and air !!! Bass from Oblivion is as it should be. It's as impactful as Studio Six on the track 'Nothing Else Matters' from Metallica. What matters most to me is the important midrange and Oblivion is outstanding in that.


----------



## UntilThen

Time to swap speakers to the economical Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 that What HiFi awarded 4 stars in 2009 - _What Hi-Fi? Sound And Vision_ Award and Darko reviewed favourably 10 years ago. I paid $399 for a new pair from Digital Cinema at a discount'... .. to be used as back speakers in a surround sound system. It's now back to $599 aussie dollars of course.

86db, 20 - 100 watts power handing, 6 ohms.

Oblivion drives it like a champ. Near field listening at 12 noon, this will pleased many discerning ears. Whilst not your heavy bass thumps, Yggdrasil > Oblivion > Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 or YOW for short should pleased most. Again clarity and details with a good dose of tube tone. No glare here. I could live with this.

I'm really pleased with Oblivion. Can drive conventional speakers without resorting to high efficiency ones.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Time to swap speakers to the economical Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 that What HiFi awarded 4 stars in 2009 - _What Hi-Fi? Sound And Vision_ Award and Darko reviewed favourably 10 years ago. I paid $399 for a new pair from Digital Cinema at a discount'... .. to be used as back speakers in a surround sound system. It's now back to $599 aussie dollars of course.
> 
> 86db, 20 - 100 watts power handing, 6 ohms.
> 
> ...


My speakers have the following specs:
*Sensitivity:* 87 dB at 2.83 v/1m
*Recommended amplifier power:* 30 to 120 wpc
*Nominal/peak power handling:* 50 / 120 wpc
*Nominal impedance:* 6 Ω; minimum 6 Ω
Are you saying that the Oblivion can drive these speakers with good volume in a small room?
Actually, I use a quad of these which I think drops the impedance to 3 Ohm - would that work?
Also, how do you connect the speakers to the amp since I think it has XLR out?


----------



## UntilThen

Yup Mordy your speakers has similar specs to the Wharfedale Diamond 10.1. Oblivion will drive it to pretty loud level in a small room and bass output is good - whatever the speakers are capable of dishing out !

Will drive a pair easy but I'm not sure about a quad. Paired correctly, a pair of speakers should do. Don't need a quad. 

I think your speakers are the Elac Debut B5.2 ? 

I'm still going through my music with YOW. It's so enjoyable. Didn't know these small speakers can output quite impactful bass and Oblivion gives it such clarity, it's hard to go without again.

Oblivion has both xlr and rca as input but the speakers out are binding post banana plugs that you normally see on stereo integrated amps.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Yup Mordy your speakers has similar specs to the Wharfedale Diamond 10.1. Oblivion will drive it to pretty loud level in a small room and bass output is good - whatever the speakers are capable of dishing out !
> 
> Will drive a pair easy but I'm not sure about a quad. Paired correctly, a pair of speakers should do. Don't need a quad.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the answer. My speakers are Elac Debut 6 and Debut 6 V2. They are supposed to be as good as the KEF LS50 but at a fraction of the price.
If I understand correctly the Oblivion needs a DAC to work for headphones and speakers? 
If my headphones only have the standard 1/4" or 3.5mm plugs and I don't have balanced cables (T1 and HD650), how do you use the XLR jack?


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Thanks for the answer. My speakers are Elac Debut 6 and Debut 6 V2. They are supposed to be as good as the KEF LS50 but at a fraction of the price.
> If I understand correctly the Oblivion needs a DAC to work for headphones and speakers?
> If my headphones only have the standard 1/4" or 3.5mm plugs and I don't have balanced cables (T1 and HD650), how do you use the XLR jack?



Your welcome ! Anytime Mordy ! 

Oblivion is like an integrated amp when using speakers. If your source is your PC then yes you need a dac to convert digital to analogue. In my case I use Yggdrasil and it's Yggy's xlr output to Oblivion's xlr input. I could have used Yggy's rca output to Oblivion's rca input too. If you are using a CD player, then it's rca from the CD player to Oblivion's rca input. No dac required as the CD player does the conversion already. Similarly in the lounge I use my Rega RP8 with a phono amp (Avid Pellar) - this goes from the Avid Pellar's rca output to Oblivion rca input. 

In the Oblivion send to me, there is only xlr headphone out. Sonic could easily have included both 1/4 rca and xlr out for headphones. That way your headphone plugs of 1/4" or 3.5mm could be easily catered for.


----------



## mordy

Thanks again for the answers - i am starting to get the picture. One question remains - preamp duty:
If I use a DAC and then RCA cables from the DAC to the Oblivion, can I use the headphone jack (as preamp out) to connect to a separate power amp to drive speakers that require more power than the Oblivion provides?


----------



## UntilThen

It's strange. When I was approached to review Oblivion, I view it only as a headphone amp. Whilst as a headphone amp, it sounded superb with Verite Open, I'm now really enjoying Oblivion's capability as a speaker amp - especially how good it sounds with entry level speakers.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Thanks again for the answers - i am starting to get the picture. One question remains - preamp duty:
> If I use a DAC and then RCA cables from the DAC to the Oblivion,* can I use the headphone jack (as preamp out) to connect to a separate power amp to drive speakers that require more power than the Oblivion provides?*



Yes you can. Sonic has answered that already in a post up above. You can use the headphone jack or speakers out as a preamp to your main amp. 

However to make life easy, he also says he can build both preamp and speakers out into Oblivion and Citadel.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> You can take a (cheap) XLR cable and cut the connectors off on one side and use the bare wires to connect to the speaker jacks, and then XLR on the other end to the Sansui. Not very elegant perhaps but it would work. But, like you say, not a priority just thought I'd mention it.



There. That's what he says. He was referring to my Sansui that has balanced xlr input. If you have rca unbalanced input, then do similarly.


----------



## UntilThen

I think this is what you need to use the headphone out of Oblivion as preamp to your main amp. https://www.amazon.com.au/Duttek-6-...ocphy=9071740&hvtargid=pla-309645342180&psc=1

Sonic to confirm. To be safe and sure.


----------



## SonicTrance (Dec 30, 2019)

mordy said:


> If my headphones only have the standard 1/4" or 3.5mm plugs and I don't have balanced cables (T1 and HD650), how do you use the XLR jack?


Then you need to get a balanced 4-pin XLR cable for them.



UntilThen said:


> In the Oblivion send to me, there is only xlr headphone out. Sonic could easily have included both 1/4 rca and xlr out for headphones. That way your headphone plugs of 1/4" or 3.5mm could be easily catered for.


I can do it but not that easily. It would complicate things somewhat as there would need to be a switch in between the the SE jack and the output transformer. Oblivion and Citadel have balanced outputs, meaning there're two phases in anti-phase to each other per channel with a centertap to ground. When using single ended output jacks, such as the 1/4 jack, one phase goes to ground.
I still don't recommend this as the balanced output is better.



UntilThen said:


> There. That's what he says. He was referring to my Sansui that has balanced xlr input. *If you have rca unbalanced input, then do similarly.*


Not that easy. Again, the output are balanced so the amp you're feeding needs to have balanced inputs. I can build this pre-amp option either with balanced (XLR) or SE (RCA) outputs.



UntilThen said:


> I think this is what you need to use the headphone out of Oblivion as preamp to your main amp. https://www.amazon.com.au/Duttek-6-...ocphy=9071740&hvtargid=pla-309645342180&psc=1
> 
> Sonic to confirm. To be safe and sure.


That would work if your amp has the 1/4 jack on the front. You can not use an adapter that goes from 4-pin XLR to 1/4 and then that cable above for example. Never use a balanced to SE adapter of any sort!


----------



## baronbeehive (Dec 30, 2019)

UntilThen said:


> Back from the beach house. The traffic jam along the way is incredible. Sydney despite the bush fires is still incredibly good looking.



Wow, Sydney looks so amazing!
.

Edit: Why don't we all send postcards like this on the thread, it certainly cheers us up in the cold, and grey countries lol!


----------



## MrCurwen

Helsinki has like 15 minutes of sunshine once every three days.

Balanced output is better, but I for one use only SE output in my amps. My AKG headphones have SE wires.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Wow, Sydney looks so amazing!
> .
> 
> Edit: Why don't we all send postcards like this on the thread, it certainly cheers us up in the cold, and grey countries lol!



Share your cold with me. It’s greater than 40 degrees today.

My Oblivion connections is perfect.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> One other thing I discovered is that the spike feet are adjustable in height. When I first place it on the table, it was not level or the table's not level. So I place a 10 cent coin under the feet of the front right spike. Now that I know how to adjust the feet, the coin is taken out .... forever ! Good idea on the spike feet Sonic !



If you didn't want to do that you could always unscrew the feet and put a couple of washers on the thread then screw the feet back. I do that because I don't like the look of them unscrewed, also it can raise the height even more if you need to clear fans for maximum air flow.


----------



## baronbeehive (Dec 31, 2019)

MrCurwen said:


> Helsinki has like 15 minutes of sunshine once every three days..



That bad... one positive is that you can stay inside and play music and build amps!



MrCurwen said:


> Balanced output is better, but I for one use only SE output in my amps. My AKG headphones have SE wires.



For anyone interested there is an interesting discussion on balanced vv SE in head-fi. I say discussion, more like a slanging match. I don't believe either is better, it boils down to the design, a quality SE will beat a so so balanced. I did not see anything that convinced me that a good balanced design was better than a good SE design. Various measurements were given that indicated to me that, at least at the present time, no objective evidence existed to prove that balanced was better, neither did balanced affect headphone drivers preferentially. Of course balanced does have advantages in noise cancellation, long distance use and such like.

Balanced definately _*sounded*_ better in my LD, more defined sound, whether it is in theory I'm not so sure.



UntilThen said:


> Share your cold with me. It’s greater than 40 degrees today.



Thank you, that's 20 degrees each, not bad for this time of the year. We touched slightly over 40 last year, a record for summer!


----------



## SonicTrance

baronbeehive said:


> If you didn't want to do that you could always unscrew the feet and put a couple of washers on the thread then screw the feet back. I do that because I don't like the look of them unscrewed, also it can raise the height even more if you need to clear fans for maximum air flow.


I recommend the spikes to be unscrewed to give the fan some airflow.



MrCurwen said:


> Balanced output is better, but I for one use only SE output in my amps. My AKG headphones have SE wires.





baronbeehive said:


> Balanced definately _*sounded*_ better in my LD, more defined sound, whether it is in theory I'm not so sure.


I'll just clarify this somewhat.
What MrCurwen means is that he built a balanced amp with SE output. Not an SE amp. That sounded a bit strange to me when he first told me some years ago now. But, the moral of the story is that the amp still operates in push pull (balanced), then the signals (the two phases) are summed in the OT primary. From there you can either choose to have a balanced output or an SE output.

The LD MK6 is a totally different topology and design which does not sound good with SE out.


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> I recommend the spikes to be unscrewed to give the fan some airflow.



Yes they should do that.

I found with the LD I needed a bit more height for the fans so I put in longer thread screws with a few washers on top, then you can still unscrew the feet as well if you need even more height. Not needed on the Oblivion though.


----------



## UntilThen

Good morning and Happy New Year all.


----------



## SonicTrance

Happy new year!


----------



## UntilThen (Feb 18, 2020)

My review.

*Oblivion*

http://ultrasonicstudios.org/oblivion/

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/modern-balanced-tube-amp-build.852879/

About 2 months ago I was approached by Sonic to review Oblivion. I had not known Sonic before neither did I hear about Oblivion.

I told him I’m not a professional reviewer and he said that’s ok. I’m not a technical person either so this is a layman’s review.

Oblivion is a hybrid amp with tube as preamp and solid state for the power amp duties. For more information on Oblivion, you can read it at the links above.

When I started, I view Oblivion only as a headphone amp but I soon found out that you can also have one configured as preamp and / or with speakers out.

After 2 months, I received the amp 2 days before Christmas.  It came in a very big box. Inside, it is very well padded and has another box – Oblivion is in there, again very well padded. It came with 2 x RCA 6AV6 driver tubes and 4 x Siemens EL81 power tubes. The amp that was send to me has an impedance switch, another switch to enable headphones or speakers / headphones and speakers binding posts that accept banana plugs. It also has xlr and rca inputs. The headphone out is xlr. Power switch is of the flick variety and it is very sturdy and feels good to the touch. The volume knob operates smoothly.

Visually, Oblivion looks very good. It comes in a large brush aluminium black powder coated chassis. It is slightly bigger than my Yggdrasil dac. There are 4 adjustable spike feets which makes levelling the amp on the table very easy. There is a big fan underneath to keep the amp cool and it is very quiet. The amp stays just moderately warm even under hours of usage.

I will start with the review of Oblivion as a headphone amp. My gears are as follows:-

Yggdrasil – dac ; Oblivion – amp ; ZMF Verite and HD800 – headphones.

Cables are Curious cable interconnects, Isotek EV03 Premier power cable, a generic power conditioner similar to the Isotek EV03 Polaris power conditioner.

Now how does it sound?

Oblivion strikes me as very clear with details galore. Stereo imaging is superb. You can hear instruments clearly and visualise where they are positioned. Soundstage depth, width and height are the best I’ve heard in all the amps that I’ve experienced. Treble is very well extended. Midrange is forward and engaging. Bass is well done without overpowering the other frequencies. Whilst it’s lighter in bass than some of my tube amps, it surprised me on bass heavy tracks. I soon discovered that Oblivion will reveal how your gear sound and perform. It is very transparent. There is a touch of tube tone and at no time did it sounded glaring or bright. Spacious, airy and articulate comes to mind. With Yggdrasil and Verite Open, it sounded like a perfect pairing to my ears.

My other 3 tube amps are ALO Audio Studio Six, Glenn OTL amplifier and Woo Audio WA22 and the preference are in that order.

Compared to Studio Six.

Studio Six has Mullard ECC33, Brimar CV511 (equivalent of 6V6gt), Mullard OB2 and GEC U52.

Studio Six or SS has rather pronounced bass. It’s solid. It’s also very detailed with a sweet midrange and accentuated bass. It’s great with classic rock.

On switching over to Oblivion, it’s obvious that Oblivion clarity and details are more in abundance and soundstage is wider, deeper and has more height. Oblivion imaging is also better. It is certainly airier and projected a holographic image. Studio Six is the best of my 3 amps ( – in my opinion ), so it came as a shocked that after a few days of comparison, I found myself preferring Oblivion tonally with my gear.

Compared to Glenn OTL amplifier.

I had GOTL for 2 years now and am very familiar with it’s tone. It’s a tube rollers amp but my preferred tubes are Sylvania 6sn7w metal base with 6 x RCA 6bx7gt. GOTL has an upfront engaging midrange and it’s midbass is superb with Verite. Treble is well extended but a bit dial back compared to the other amps. It’s an organic, dynamic and lively amp. Compared to Oblivion, GOTL sounded less clear. Very good texture but clarity and details are not up to Oblivion class leading act. GOTL soundstage is also much narrower. Despite all this, I actually like the way GOTL sounded with classic rock.

The areas Oblivion trump over GOTL is in clarity, details, imaging, airiness and soundstage. They are quite different sounding tonally.

Again I find myself preferring how Oblivion sounded compared to GOTL.

For this exercise, I decided to skip Woo Audio WA22.

_GOTL was my amp of the year for 2018. Studio Six was my amp of the year for 2019. Oblivion will be my amp of the year for 2020._

With the impressions of headphone duties out of the way, let’s get to how Oblivion fair with speakers. My first thought is that Oblivion will be suitable only for high efficiency speakers like the Zu Omens or Omegas. Well I was so surprised that Oblivion drives the following bookshelf speakers so well.

Axis LS28 – 88db, 100w max power handling, 8 ohms

Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 – 86db, 20 – 100w power, 6 ohms

Furthermore I was astounded that Oblivion could drive my Axis LS88 floorstanders (90db, 300w power, 4 ohms) to moderately loud level. I have to admit though that I much prefer my Sansui au-alpha 907mr and Redgum Rgi120enr for driving my large speakers in a fairly large room of 6 x 4 metres. There’s just that much more oomph. I was using my Rega RP8 turntable with Avid Pellar phono stage for this test.

The bookshelf speakers sounded excellent with Oblivion driving them. For near field listening, there is certainly enough power to drive them. There is no need for high efficiency speakers. I have not heard those speakers sounding so clear and bass was amply delivered with good solid impact.

Music selections for the listening test.

Telegraph Road – Dire Straits

Forever Autumn – War of the Worlds

1812 Overture – Tchaikovsky

Ride of the Valkyries – Richard Wagner

Comfortably Numb – Pink Floyd

Nothing Else Matters - Metallica

Spanish Harlem – Rebecca Pidgeon

Stairways to heaven – Led Zeppelin

101 Eastbound – Fourplay

Summary

Oblivion performed superbly as both a headphone and speakers amp. I would be proud to own one.

If you value transparency and an articulate sound, you will love it.

@SonicTrance has created an amp that not only looks beautiful but also sounds great.

My prediction is that it will take off as more people come to know of it. Highly recommended !


----------



## UntilThen

What a surprise ! My 2.5 grand Axis Voicebox S monitors sounding great with Oblivion at half volume ! 
https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/axis/1.html

Count me impressed !

Just brought this back from Canberra yesterday.


----------



## SonicTrance

@UntilThen 
Thanks for the review! I’m really glad you like it!


----------



## UntilThen

I more than like it. I adored it now. 

One aspect I didn't mentioned is how quiet it is with no music playing. Those tubes and amp produced no unwanted noise or hum. 

Another aspect is the fast transient speed. I love amps that are agile and not sluggish. Oblivion is the best of the lot I've heard. However what surprised me is that there is still a very nice tube tone. You have the best of both worlds here.


----------



## BreadMaster

It’s too bad their isn’t a Electrostatic Oblivion amp.


----------



## SonicTrance

BreadMaster said:


> It’s too bad their isn’t a Electrostatic Oblivion amp.


Yeah 
Something for the future I guess


----------



## joseph69

@UntilThen 
Why did you leave out the WA22?


----------



## MrCurwen

Electrostatic amp can be easily made, I've made couple in my time.

Good clarification on the SE thing. 

Also very good review!


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> @UntilThen
> Why did you leave out the WA22?



It is the least favoured of my 3 tube amps - my apologies to those who love their WA22. It is in the context of my preference amongst my 3 amps. It isn't to suggest that the WA22 is bad sounding. With good tubes, it makes my son really happy. 

Besides Yggdrasil can only output to 3 amps via one pair of xlr balanced interconnects and 2 pairs of rca interconnects. Connecting all 3 amps (Oblivion, Studio Six and GOTL) to Yggdrasil makes comparison less difficult as I can repeat each song through each amp and make notes as I go.

Having 4 amps in a 4 way comparison within a week's time frame will exponentially increase the concentration and effort. It will probably numb the ears and desensitised the brain. 

There's also listening with different speakers and moving Oblivion between the lounge and my study. It's a pretty full on couple of days between Christmas eve and now plus the weekend away to the beach house.

In time to come, I'll be able to pit WA22 with Oblivion but I don't expect it to sound better from the time I've spend with WA22.


----------



## joseph69

@UntilThen 
Thanks for the reply.
I'm not an owner of the WA22 nor have I ever heard. I was just curious.


----------



## UntilThen

@MrCurwen thanks for your kind comments. On the contrary I find your technical posts informative. 

It's to your credit that Oblivion is sounding as lovely as it is because Sonic learned the design from you. Using economical and non expensive parts and tubes to build such an amp with such euphonics is no mean feat.


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> @UntilThen
> Thanks for the reply.
> I'm not an owner of the WA22 nor have I ever heard. I was just curious.



You're welcome mate. I hope the day will come when you can compare the Citadel with your WA33. I for one will look forward to that comparison.


----------



## omniweltall (Jan 1, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> It is the least favoured of my 3 tube amps - my apologies to those who love their WA22. It is in the context of my preference amongst my 3 amps. It isn't to suggest that the WA22 is bad sounding. With good tubes, it makes my son really happy.
> 
> Besides Yggdrasil can only output to 3 amps via one pair of xlr balanced interconnects and 2 pairs of rca interconnects. Connecting all 3 amps (Oblivion, Studio Six and GOTL) to Yggdrasil makes comparison less difficult as I can repeat each song through each amp and make notes as I go.
> 
> ...


I also heard WA22 before, and was under-impressed.

Good stuff you got there. What would you say the weakness of Oblivion? 

Regarding power, which between the Studio Six and Oblivion have more power and driver control?


----------



## BreadMaster

MrCurwen said:


> Electrostatic amp can be easily made, I've made couple in my time.
> 
> Good clarification on the SE thing.
> 
> Also very good review!


Do it built those electrostatics amps and give Kevin Gilmores design a run for its money


----------



## UntilThen

omniweltall said:


> Good stuff you got there. What would you say the weakness of Oblivion?
> 
> Regarding power, which between the Studio Six and Oblivion have more power and driver control?



Those who prefer a more pronounced tube tone and accentuated bass may find that to be a weakness of Oblivion but personally I like Oblivion the way it is sounding. 

Oblivion definitely has more power and driver control.


----------



## UntilThen

BreadMaster said:


> Do it built those electrostatics amps and give Kevin Gilmores design a run for its money



Haha or the BHSE. I heard the Blue Hawaii with SR-009 at a Sydney meet in 2016 and was impressed with the clear sweet tone and transparency. It's a long time ago and my memory can only stretch that far.

The HD800 has just landed on my lap. My son visited me and brought back the HD800 for me to listen with Oblivion. I let him use the HD800 with WA22. Clarity and details went up a few notches.  Over the course of the next 2 days I'll be better able to assess this combination but I'm liking it a lot on first listen.


----------



## SonicTrance

MrCurwen said:


> Electrostatic amp can be easily made, I've made couple in my time.


Easily made in theory, not in practice though. There's a lot of work before I could offer an electrostatic amp. I have been thinking about it though!


----------



## baronbeehive (Jan 1, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> The HD800 has just landed on my lap. My son visited me and brought back the HD800 for me to listen with Oblivion. I let him use the HD800 with WA22. Clarity and details went up a few notches.  Over the course of the next 2 days I'll be better able to assess this combination but I'm liking it a lot on first listen.



I would be very interested in hearing your impressions with the HD800 as it is a headphone I have been thinking about recently with a view to upgrading from my rather ancient but much loved HE-500's.



UntilThen said:


> When I started, I view Oblivion only as a headphone amp but I soon found out that you can also have one configured as preamp and / or with speakers out.



This is very significant for me, atm I have an amp for speakers, and another for headphones so an amp that does both to such a high level cannot be underestimated, especially as there are few around that do both in a dedicated way. I was looking around a year or so ago and only found maybe one or two that did not have the other function added just as an afterthought.



UntilThen said:


> Compared to Studio Six.
> 
> Studio Six has Mullard ECC33, Brimar CV511 (equivalent of 6V6gt), Mullard OB2 and GEC U52.
> 
> ...



Again this is very significant because I know that many professional reviewers use the Studio Six as a baseline for their reviews.

Very glad that you rated it your amp of the year, very well deserved by the sound of it, and the designer and builder should be congratulated. Also glad that your family let you back into the lounge,- sorry music room -, to do the review!

I very much enjoyed reading your review on a damp, grey, New Years day morning over breakfast!

Now will you stop raiding my music for your reviews…. Rebecca Pidgeon is also one of my great favourites, and Fourplay, I would go so far as to say, is my all time favourite smooth jazz groups LOL
.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I would be very interested in hearing your impressions with the HD800 as it is a headphone I have been thinking about recently with a view to upgrading from my rather ancient but much loved HE-500's.



I heard the HE-500 modded on my La Figaro 339 at another Sydney meet in 2017. HD800 is very different in tone to HE-500. If you like one, it's hard to love the other unless your ears are adaptable. 

I had quite a few headphones along the way since 2015 when I started on Head-Fi. They are in chronological order:-

Beyerdynamic DT-880 250 ohms (my first open semi open headphone) 
Sennheiser HD650 (which I eventually go on to mod)
Beyerdynamic T1 (original)
HD800
ZMF Eikon
ZMF Atticus
Audeze LCD-2f
Audeze LCD-3f
ZMF Verite Open LTD Pheasant wood

I had HD800 and LCD-3f together for a while. Kept those 2 because it's a good contrast until Verite came along... then I sold off LCD-3f.

Now I'm left with HD800 and Verite. Still a good contrast.

I use HD800 for my tubes evaluations in the past because it's very revealing. It's a classic which I still enjoy very much even today. This headphone burst on the scene back in 2009.


----------



## UntilThen

This will be another iconic photo to my collection. 

I'm liking HD800 with Oblivion and Yggdrasil a lot ! It's crystal clear but soothing to my ears. No peaks no troughs no glare.  Just a clear Spring day. Verite is more like Autumn. Which do I like better... well I do not have to pick a favourite because I will just enjoy them for their diversity. 





Oblivion is nothing like Jotunheim. I could not enjoy HD800 with Jot which I had at one time for a while. It's too sharp and bright. Oblivion on the other hand is clear and has that tube tone which makes it easy going. With an expanded soundscape, it's like the horizon has expanded, the mountains in the distance receding and the prairie below revealing minute details of flowers and grass, with rays of light shining through the clouds.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Again this is very significant because I know that many professional reviewers use the Studio Six as a baseline for their reviews.
> 
> Very glad that you rated it your amp of the year, very well deserved by the sound of it, and the designer and builder should be congratulated. Also glad that your family let you back into the lounge,- sorry music room -, to do the review!
> 
> ...



You got me talking and I'm trying to keep my post count down. 

Studio Six is a very capable headphone amp. Many seasoned reviewers in the Studio Six thread considers it their TOTL amp. Tom Six the designer and architect is an eloquent and articulate writer who expresses himself very well. I bought the Studio Six from an audiophile whose HiFi stereo system is quite amazing for it's room acoustic treatment and lovely gear. He considers the Studio Six a top notch headphone amp. Yet to my ears Oblivion sounds better and not just marginally. Once you've heard Oblivion details and expanded soundscape, it's hard to do without.  

I was busy in my music room as you call it - on New Year's Eve ! This is the scene as I compare Redgum, Sansui AU-717 and Sansui 907mr big muscle amps. A buyer came that day and pick up the Sansui AU-717. I had to let one go. 3 amps is too much. The 907mr has so much control over the speakers and the 3D image is why speakers listening is so much more favoured amongst audio enthusiasts.

Spanish Harlem - Rebecca Pidgeon was one of the songs used in judging when I was in Car Audio comps many many years ago. I was a participant. I have about 20 audiophile CDs and they are still in mint condition. Had that Fourplay CD many years now. About 20 years would be correct. All the CDs are ripped in as flac files to my hard drives and my play back is JR River Media Centre 24.


----------



## omniweltall

UntilThen said:


> This will be another iconic photo to my collection.
> 
> I'm liking HD800 with Oblivion and Yggdrasil a lot ! It's crystal clear but soothing to my ears. No peaks no troughs no glare.  Just a clear Spring day. Verite is more like Autumn. Which do I like better... well I do not have to pick a favourite because I will just enjoy them for their diversity.
> 
> ...


How's the bass compared to the Jot? 

HD800 is also still my main can at the moment, along with the Auteur.


----------



## Maxx134 (Jan 2, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> I did a lot of comparisons between Studio Six, Glenn OTL amp and Oblivion. A clear favourite is appearing but the report will be published on New Year's eve.





UntilThen said:


> My review.
> 
> *Oblivion*


I added your review link to the first page.

I will post other's reviews in future there as well


----------



## Maxx134 (Jan 2, 2020)

omniweltall said:


> How's the bass compared to the Jot?
> 
> HD800 is also still my main can at the moment, along with the Auteur.


Those two headphones are safe  favorite pics.

Both will slam great with Oblivion version.

I tested the LCD3 and found it too easy to drive on it. Could not pass 11oclock on volume.

I also tested the hardest to drive Susvara...
I was able to match the signature of a best solid state amp pairing for it (Pass Labs INT-150, which is a speaker amp), with just a slight EQ bass boost.

Anyways, the Jot is squarely a mid-tier amp which is dynamic,  solid-state,  forward and a one-dimemsional  in soundstage..
I found the Jotunheim matches well with soft or distant sounding Headphones like an original HEK or a HD650.

The Oblivion is a rather big jump up in sound from a jot, which is a good move.
I always recommend to save up for true upgrade, rather than a side-grade.


----------



## Maxx134 (Jan 3, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> There are no bad amps here. I would have been happy to settle down with any one of these amps if I were to have only one amp but Oblivion stood out for a number of characteristics that makes listening to music holographic, even surreal.


I agree this is the strong point of the amp.



UntilThen said:


> Besides Yggdrasil can only output to 3 amps via one pair of xlr balanced interconnects and 2 pairs of rca interconnects. Connecting all 3 amps (Oblivion, Studio Six and GOTL) to Yggdrasil makes comparison less difficult as I can repeat each song through each amp and make notes as I go.


Some amps can be  affected by the yggy balanced outputs, which have been noted in threads to be a bit better or louder sound than the line-outs.



UntilThen said:


> ...Oblivion on the other hand is clear and has that tube tone which makes it easy going. With an expanded soundscape, it's like the horizon has expanded, the mountains in the distance receding and the prairie below revealing minute details of flowers and grass, with rays of light shining through the clouds.





UntilThen said:


> He considers the Studio Six a top notch headphone amp. Yet to my ears Oblivion sounds better and not just marginally. Once you've heard Oblivion details and expanded soundscape, it's hard to do without.


I like to note that some other amps manage to get a similar large  soundstage, but with added harmonics, or diminished clarity, or a skewed image perspective.

The Oblivion gave me the most refined, large, detailed and accurate soundstage I heard so far.

The _only_ other _great_ amps that come to mind with a large magnificent soundstage that I have heard, are the EC studio and the Viva Egoista845, but I have not been able to compare them yet.


----------



## leftside

Maxx134 said:


> Those two headphones are safe  favorite pics.
> 
> Both will slam great with Oblivion version.
> 
> ...


Rare to see "too easy to drive" and "LCD3" in the same sentence. Susvara is on my watchlist. I have a couple of amps that drive the LCD4 effortlessly, so I presume the Susvara will also be great with those amps.

"I always recommend to save up for true upgrade, rather than a side-grade"
Agreed.


----------



## baronbeehive (Jan 2, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> You got me talking and I'm trying to keep my post count down.



Sorry LOL. I'm interested in the amps, the music and the diverse people we get on the thread to this great fun hobby of ours.

I'm trying to get my post count up, still a way to go for Headphoneus Supremus, hence some b**s**t which I apologize for!



UntilThen said:


> Had that Fourplay CD many years now. About 20 years would be correct. All the CDs are ripped in as flac files to my hard drives and my play back is JR River Media Centre 24.



Fourplay albums are superbly produced audiophile albums, very realistic in all departments.


----------



## Maxx134

leftside said:


> Rare to see "too easy to drive" and "LCD3" in the same sentence.


Yet it was, and although it sounded juicy nice, the resolve did not reach a top-tier level, as some of the other cans mentioned.

I haven't heard the LCD4, but I assume thats a viable pick.


----------



## UntilThen

omniweltall said:


> How's the bass compared to the Jot?
> 
> HD800 is also still my main can at the moment, along with the Auteur.



Not having Jot now would be hard to give an accurate reply but I remember Jot to be very vivid and hard edge. I did not like using HD800 with it. Instead I use my then LCD-2f with it. The planar obviously have more bass than HD800. 

Suffice to say that I like how HD800 is sounding with Oblivion. Bass is ample and no less than Jot (from memory) but with a more organic presentation - which I love. Bass is never a strong point of HD800 especially compared to LCD-2f and LCD-3f, both of which I've owned in the past. On hind sight I should have kept LCD-3f but I've too many gear that have come and gone.

 

I even had the Ragnarok which I bought together with Yggdrasil. Again I did not feel that Oblivion bass is lessor than Ragnarok (again going from memory). I would say bass is how I like it with HD800 and Oblivion. I prefer Verite with Oblivion because bass is much better with this combination.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> The Oblivion gave me the most refined, large, detailed and accurate soundstage I heard so far.



Couldn't agree more. The last 2 days I've just reach to power on Oblivion. I haven't power on Studio Six and Glenn OTL amp since the review. Still amaze at the 3D effect and details swimming in my head.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Sorry LOL. I'm interested in the amps, the music and the diverse people we get on the thread to this great fun hobby of ours.
> 
> I'm trying to get my post count up, still a way to go for Headphoneus Supremus, hence some b**s**t which I apologize for!



No worries. What's a couple more posts before I return to work on Monday. 

It has been great to meet and talk to like minded people on Head-Fi.


----------



## Gethyn

UntilThen said:


> Suffice to say that I like how HD800 is sounding with Oblivion. Bass is ample and no less than Jot (from memory) but with a more organic presentation - which I love. Bass is never a strong point of HD800 especially compared to LCD-2f and LCD-3f, both of which I've owned in the past. On hind sight I should have kept LCD-3f but I've too many gear that have come and gone.



I bought my Oblivion some months ago and use it to drive my HD800 and LCD4 headphones. I wrote a brief review at the time, but just to add to this thread that I love listening to the HD800 headphones with the Oblivion as the detail and soundstage remain intact, but the brightness of the treble is tamed, leaving incredible detail without any of the fatigue that I have experienced when using other amplifiers. The LCD4 headphones make a great pairing with the Sennheisers, offering a full-bodied and rich sound that, driven by The Oblivion, just wraps around your head and totally immerses you in the listening experience.

After trying a number of headphones and amplifiers it is great to settle back knowing that I never need to look for anything else again (I know, I know, famous last words . . . !).


----------



## UntilThen (Jan 2, 2020)

@Gethyn another Oblivion owner. I wonder how many Oblivion has Sonic make in the short time. 

Glad you have the same experience as me regarding HD800 and Oblivion. Incredible details and soundstage with no fatigue indeed ! I've heard LCD4 once at MiniDisc, a specialist headphones store in downtown Sydney. It's more my taste than the LCD-3f which has a more pronounced bass.

I've just read your review on page 4 of this thread. Very well written. Should give readers a better idea of the sound signature of Oblivion amp.


----------



## Maxx134

Gethyn said:


> I wrote a brief review at the time


Posted link to first page..


----------



## Maxx134 (Jan 3, 2020)

BreadMaster said:


> @Maxx134 Jesus, $1450 amp beating out the 8k wa33? Sounds too good to be true..


It is a denial to the senses at first..
You just can't wrap your head around it being so great.



leftside said:


> My experience has been that custom amps built by a good builder will beat an off-the-shelf amp at a similar price point, and often be better than amps costing 2* or 3* more...


Good points.



joseph69 said:


> I'm growing more and more interested in putting the Citadel side by side against my WA33.


I placed the Oblivion against it.



UntilThen said:


> I hope the day will come when you can compare the Citadel with your WA33. I for one will look forward to that comparison.


Initial quick impressions was that the Oblivion was more "clear" sounding, while the wa33 was a  thicker and slightly darker presentation, with a bit closer stage.
The most obvious difference was the wa33 heavier initial bass hit, and a more "strident" overall sound, _in comparison to the Oblivion._

This is *not* to take anything away from the wa33 greatness, but just noting the differences _in comparison.
_
The Oblivion was faster and had more delicacy.
This direct comparison was at a later date, separate from the first review.
I was busy comparing daps instead, because the amp comparison differences were both so obvious and quick.


----------



## Gethyn

UntilThen said:


> @Gethyn another Oblivion owner. I wonder how many Oblivion has Sonic make in the short time.
> 
> Glad you have the same experience as me regarding HD800 and Oblivion. Incredible details and soundstage with no fatigue indeed ! I've heard LCD4 once at MiniDisc, a specialist headphones store in downtown Sydney. It's more my taste than the LCD-3f which has a more pronounced bass.
> 
> I've just read your review on page 4 of this thread. Very well written. Should give readers a better idea of the sound signature of Oblivion amp.



Many thanks - I am no reviewer, but wanted to try and put across my initial thoughts about the amplifier in a way that I hoped might help any viewers of the thread. For me the Oblivion paired with the HD800 and LCD4 headphones is perfect. I use each pair of headphones for different genres of music (HD800 typically for classical and acoustic music or when I want to listen to details in the music, and the LCD4 for rock, R&B, soul, vocal music, etc.).


----------



## cskippy

How does Oblivion pair with headphones that have highly reactive impedance such as Utopia?  I found any amp with Zout greater than 3 Ohms and the Focal drivers would become too woolly and thick, losing the precision and control they're known for.


----------



## MrCurwen

Very well. Real output impedance is well below 3 ohms for most of the frequency range. Handles reactive loads well.


----------



## joseph69 (Jan 3, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> You're welcome mate. I hope the day will come when you can compare the Citadel with your WA33. I for one will look forward to that comparison.






Maxx134 said:


> I placed the Oblivion against it.



I'm half the way there as of this afternoon to comparing the Citadel & WA33 sometime in the near future.


----------



## UntilThen

What do you mean half the way there? 

Anyway I like Oblivion so much I ain’t returning it to Sonic. I’m going to buy it.

it will be my primary amp driving Verite and HD800 together with speakers in Canberra.


----------



## joseph69 (Jan 4, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> What do you mean half the way there?
> 
> Anyway I like Oblivion so much I ain’t returning it to Sonic. I’m going to buy it.
> it will be my primary amp driving Verite and HD800 together with speakers in Canberra.




I put down (half the cost) for a custom built Citadel this afternoon. So I'm half way there! I really found the photos of Tomas's (Ultrasonic Studios) personal build very appealing (below).

So I asked him if he could build me one and he replied that this was the Citadels topology, but this used 2 separate chassis for the amp/PSU, and he said he could build this in 1 chassis for me (like the black Citadel). 

I'll be getting what you see here with the exception of the rectifier (which is only used to power the meters) and it will only have a single transformer, plus the addition of the speaker/pre-amp switch on the L side of the volume pot & impedance switch on the R side of the volume pot.
Now I'll be able to do a side by side comparison against my WA33 at my own leisure.


----------



## UntilThen (Jan 4, 2020)

That looks good.  Using those tubes in the photo? I have 3 new pairs of those Siemens c3g drivers. Just a rectifier for show would have been nice too. 

Can put in a fat Sophia Electric rectifier like in the photo.


----------



## joseph69 (Jan 4, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> That looks good.  Using those tubes in the photo? I have 3 new pairs of those Siemens c3g drivers. Just a rectifier for show would have been nice too.
> 
> Can put in a fat Sophia Electric rectifier like in the photo.


Thank you. As you know, the Citadel was an interest of mine since I found this thread, then after seeing Tomas's build and knowing he'll build the Citadel for me in this same chassis pushed me over the edge! I'll be using ST type 6P7S instead of EL36 which are bigger and have a cool shape to them. Tomas had mentioned it and I liked the idea.


----------



## UntilThen

Would be interesting to see the end result. I’m glad you commit to it. Nothing like owning the amp and taking your time to evaluate it.

I suppose your dac have balanced xlr output?


----------



## SonicTrance

@joseph69 
That pic you posted above is actually an SE amp I built with C3G input and 6BG6 output. Same chassis though as yours will have. Your amp will have four 6P7S's for the output stages and two 6SL7's for the inputs (I may have to change the input tube to 6SN7 if there's too much gain but probably not).



UntilThen said:


> That looks good.  Using those tubes in the photo? I have 3 new pairs of those Siemens c3g drivers. Just a rectifier for show would have been nice too.
> 
> Can put in a fat Sophia Electric rectifier like in the photo.


C3G's are good tubes but I find them to be too noisy in this circuit. Maybe I just had noisy tubes I don't know but there're cheaper alternatives that sounds just as good!

I use that Sophia 274B to power the meter backlights haha crazy. It won't work as B+ rectifier as it tops out at 90 mA and the circuit draws over 100 mA. The meter backlights draws exactly 90 mA so it's maxed out! lol.


----------



## baronbeehive (Jan 4, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> ... I like Oblivion so much I ain’t returning it to Sonic. I’m going to buy it.



Dammit, every time Sonic sends out an amp for review, he has to build another because the first one doesn't come back! That says a lot about the Oblivion.

I love my Little Dot and Miniwatt. The mods: caps for the Miniwatt, caps, resistors, wires and circuitry for the LD, have taken the sound signature to another level for me, transparent with tube euphoria thrown in. Where they might fall down slightly is in soundstage accuracy. The LD is a slight touch mellow, the Miniwatt a touch tighter and faster, but it looks like the Oblivion has it all.

The reviews say it, and I'm getting more and more interested.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> Would be interesting to see the end result. I’m glad you commit to it. Nothing like owning the amp and taking your time to evaluate it. I suppose your dac have balanced xlr output?


Yes, I run a fully balanced system using the KTE Spring DAC.



SonicTrance said:


> @joseph69
> That pic you posted above is actually an SE amp I built with C3G input and 6BG6 output. Same chassis though as yours will have. Your amp will have four 6P7S's for the output stages and two 6SL7's for the inputs (I may have to change the input tube to 6SN7 if there's too much gain but probably not).
> 
> 
> ...


I confused your 2 chassis build with the photo of the build I posted. Anyway, it was the chassis I was pointing out which is going to be same as yours.


----------



## joseph69

baronbeehive said:


> The reviews say it, and I'm getting more and more interested.


This is exactly what happened to me.


----------



## Phantaminum

cskippy said:


> How does Oblivion pair with headphones that have highly reactive impedance such as Utopia?  I found any amp with Zout greater than 3 Ohms and the Focal drivers would become too woolly and thick, losing the precision and control they're known for.



The Elex, Fostex, and other low-Z headphones sound amazing out of the Oblivion. Great pairings there and bass is very controlled.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> My review.
> 
> *Oblivion*
> 
> ...




Thanks for these impressions Matt.

Very nicely done.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Thanks for these impressions Matt.
> 
> Very nicely done.



Thanks Joe. When I wrote the review that morning, something else was preoccupying my mind - bush fires.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> That pic you posted above is actually an SE amp I built with C3G input and 6BG6 output. Same chassis though as yours will have. Your amp will have four 6P7S's for the output stages and two 6SL7's for the inputs (I may have to change the input tube to 6SN7 if there's too much gain but probably not).



Aren't 6BG6 and 6P7S the same? Tubestore https://tubes-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=786 call it a beam tetrode tube.

They look good and are inexpensive. $7 each lol. A little while ago I wanted to buy quad Mullard KT66 smoke glass for $300 each.  I stop fantasising about expensive and rare tubes now.

Oblivion sounds good with inexpensive tubes and I don't even need to change them. I can just focus on the music.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Aren't 6BG6 and 6P7S the same? Tubestore https://tubes-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=786 call it a beam tetrode tube.
> 
> They look good and are inexpensive. $7 each lol. A little while ago I wanted to buy quad Mullard KT66 smoke glass for $300 each.  I stop fantasising about expensive and rare tubes now.
> 
> Oblivion sounds good with inexpensive tubes and I don't even need to change them. I can just focus on the music.


Yes, they're basically the same. 6P7S is the Russian version  
You also have the 807 which is also basically the same but with another type base. 6L6 also similar.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> A little while ago I wanted to buy quad Mullard KT66 smoke glass for $300 each.  I stop fantasising about expensive and rare tubes now.
> 
> Oblivion sounds good with inexpensive tubes and I don't even need to change them. I can just focus on the music.



Excellent! That is a merry go round which is difficult to get off. I found many expensive tubes aren't worth the money anyway.


----------



## MrCurwen

$7? Oh where the world has gone.

I used to buy TV tubes for 1 eur a piece, sometimes less for a batch. First the american big bottles went up, now the rest are following. Even 2015 or so I bought EL81 and similar for $8 a quad.

In short, lucky I got a decent enough stash of tubes, several hundreds. $7 is too much to pay for a tube, in my opinion.


----------



## MrCurwen

Most TV sweep tubes are beam tetrodes. Makes for the best triodes, luxorious "mesh plate" included by default when triode connected.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Dammit, every time Sonic sends out an amp for review, he has to build another because the first one doesn't come back! That says a lot about the Oblivion.
> 
> I love my Little Dot and Miniwatt. The mods: caps for the Miniwatt, caps, resistors, wires and circuitry for the LD, have taken the sound signature to another level for me, transparent with tube euphoria thrown in. Where they might fall down slightly is in soundstage accuracy. The LD is a slight touch mellow, the Miniwatt a touch tighter and faster, but it looks like the Oblivion has it all.
> 
> The reviews say it, and I'm getting more and more interested.



It was meant to be a review and I'll then send it back after. The 2 months that Sonic was building it in his free time, I was preoccupied with work and didn't give it much thought. Furthermore a few months earlier I had just bought Studio Six and Woo Audio WA22. My rack is full and I don't think I needed another amp at that point. Then it came and I had to return to Canberra to get it. When I first listen to it, I knew it sounded special. The 3D effect is stunning.

So it's mine now and in the next hour or so I'll be packing and journeying back to Canberra with Oblivion and the other gears.


----------



## UntilThen

MrCurwen said:


> $7? Oh where the world has gone.
> 
> I used to buy TV tubes for 1 eur a piece, sometimes less for a batch. First the american big bottles went up, now the rest are following. Even 2015 or so I bought EL81 and similar for $8 a quad.
> 
> In short, lucky I got a decent enough stash of tubes, several hundreds. $7 is too much to pay for a tube, in my opinion.



$7 cannot even buy a McDonald meal now.  However it's the implementation of the amp and not just about tubes. That I know now. Thanks to your design and Sonic amazing soldering and very neat P2P work.

Oblivion gets it right where it counts:-

sound
quietness
looks
price


----------



## mordy

MrCurwen said:


> $7? Oh where the world has gone.
> 
> I used to buy TV tubes for 1 eur a piece, sometimes less for a batch. First the american big bottles went up, now the rest are following. Even 2015 or so I bought EL81 and similar for $8 a quad.
> 
> In short, lucky I got a decent enough stash of tubes, several hundreds. $7 is too much to pay for a tube, in my opinion.


Hi MC,
I agree - the tube prices are going through the sky. Certain tubes have gone up 10-fold in price in a couple of years. The trick is to find good sounding inexpensive tubes which isn't always easy. And I appreciate your approach to design great sounding amps with inexpensive tubes.


----------



## MrCurwen

How is it possible that 6E5P is still dirt cheap? It's the second most linear IDHT tube ever made??? I guess the oscillations keep that one down... 

My workhorse runs 12AX7 / 6E5P. Background is never fully black though.

6P41S seems to be decent priced as well still.


----------



## UntilThen

Oblivion has now travelled 600 kms. Back on the rack and driving Axis Voicebox S monitors in near field listening. My setup will be a lot simpler now. Simple and sounding splendid.


----------



## MrCurwen

Very nice setup, the tube top caps and the PT cover have a nice theme going, add in the meters and the look is 1950's SCIFI.

Regarding tube selection, Russian version of EL81, the 6P43P, seems to be pretty cheap still. No top cap though.


----------



## SonicTrance

I just finished a Citadel with impedance switch, speaker outputs and RCA inputs. This is the first Citadel with the new layout. I'm very happy with how it turned out.

     

I also have an announcement to make.
I'll have to start a business soon as orders are coming in. This will, unfortunately, mean price increases. This is not something I want to do, but I have to if I want to keep on selling these amps. This will still be my hobby and not my full time job. 

I'll give people a chance to order with current prices until February 1st, then I'll do the price increases.
I'll also change from USD to EUR. This is because it's easier for me to shop for parts with EUR (it's still not Swedish currency). I've already made the change to EUR on the website without any price increase.

New prices as of February 1st will be:
Oblivion: 1750 EUR
Citadel: 2150 EUR

With this increase my overall profits will still much LOWER than it is now.


----------



## UntilThen

Understand the price increase. It's taxes you have to pay as a company. 

What is the switch behind for?


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> I just finished a Citadel with impedance switch, speaker outputs and RCA inputs. This is the first Citadel with the new layout. I'm very happy with how it turned out.



I like the new layout, what are the 6SL7's? The round plates look good. Are the chassis sides vented or just grooved? I think you have the gyrators and heatsinks on the sides now.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Understand the price increase. It's taxes you have to pay as a company.
> 
> What is the switch behind for?


The switch is to switch the RCA inputs ON or OFF. 



baronbeehive said:


> I like the new layout, what are the 6SL7's? The round plates look good. Are the chassis sides vented or just grooved? I think you have the gyrators and heatsinks on the sides now.


Thanks! They're Russian 6H9C. Chassis is grooved. The sides act like big heatsinks.


----------



## nishan99

SonicTrance said:


> I just finished a Citadel with impedance switch, speaker outputs and RCA inputs. This is the first Citadel with the new layout. I'm very happy with how it turned out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow it looks even more stunning! will the Oblivion get this layout too? 

I totally understand the price increase and I wish the best for you <3


----------



## SonicTrance

nishan99 said:


> Wow it looks even more stunning! will the Oblivion get this layout too?
> 
> I totally understand the price increase and I wish the best for you <3


Thanks!
Oblivions input tube is a little more sensitive to placement. I could do something similar upon request. Otherwise it will remain unchanged.


----------



## UntilThen

nishan99 said:


> Wow it looks even more stunning! will the Oblivion get this layout too?



It's nice but I do like how Oblivion looks as it is.


----------



## UntilThen

Loving this setup with HD800 and Verite. After another week, I'm quite sure I don't need the other amps. 

It's pretty stunning this Oblivion and Yggdrasil pairing. Like this song, I *wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then* but now that I know it, things changes.


----------



## SonicTrance

I'm glad you like! Also, great pic!


----------



## DecentLevi

@UntilThen for quite a while you seem to have vanished into 'oblivion', so I checked on your posts which lead me here, apparently you have indeed fallen into the Oblivion, LOL. Wow what a surprise and what an astonishing looking price/performance ratio. I've read your review linked on the first page and how you liked it better than your Studio Six which already came on top of the Glenn OTL - but myself being in line for a custom Glenn SET amp, begs the question if there's still any appetite to try the likes of his 'Berlin' (EL3N / EL11 SET amp) after owning this? If not, would you consider to sell me a pair or two of your mighty fine EL11 or similar tubes I notice you've collected?


----------



## DecentLevi

Also a few basic questions for @SonicTrance please

- Is this a tube rolling amp? (is it possible or recommended, and if so which types are compatible)
- What is the concept behind the design of a small looking round transformer housed in a hefty sized amp? (apologies for a dumb question)
- Is this an OTL or a SET (transformer coupled) amp, and is there any advantage of this over a SET amp?
- Would this be advisable to pair well with the HEDDphone One? It's a new variant of AMT transducer that is said to have similar amping requirements as a hard to drive low-z planar, with the following specs: 87 dB SPL for 1 mW, 42 ohms.
- Moreover which headphone impedance specs is this said to pair well with? 
- Do you make Oblivion amps with also a SE output or only balanced?
This seems quite intriguing considering a $1,500(+/-) amp is said to compete with the almighty Woo Audio WA33! 
thanks!


----------



## UntilThen

No cliche or obsessions for me. This is not my watering hole. I didn't find Oblivion but it found me. It's the reason I'm here. 

Like Indiana Jones who is the raider of the Lost Ark, I was on a mission with 2 other tube amps in sight. I name them Berlin and Sydney. Berlin is going to use Telefunken EL11 as drivers and Telefunken EL12 spez as power tubes. Sydney is going to use 12AU7 as drivers and KT66, KT77, 6L6, 6V6, KT88, etc as power tubes. Sydney would probably have cost me US$2000 in tubes alone. Both would be set amps using Lundahl transformers and Jupiter caps, special chassis, Yamamoto's sockets and all the boutique parts.

Then I met Oblivion and after 2 weeks with it and my other amps, in the period between Christmas and the week after New Year, I was stopped dead in my tracks looking for the Lost Ark because it is right here with me.  

Right here with the big picture so no one can miss it.  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/page-24#post-15411044

GOTL and Studio Six will be sold soon. If you're after a GOTL watch out for my 'for sale' listing in Head-Fi. 

I stop fantasising about Berlin and Sydney. I don't even care about tube rolling anymore. I am just exploring music these days ...... and wondering how different the 'balance' Citadel would be from Oblivion.

Notice not once in my review did I mention about price disparity between the amps. I don't really care. What matters to me is which one sound more appealing to my ears. 

As for selling the EL tubes, I'm not in a hurry. I would rather be selling all the EL tubes together for someone who might want to progress with Berlin. If not I'll just hoard it for 10 years then pass it on to my son with the instruction that it's not to be sold until 2050. By which time they would be the only NOS EL11 and EL12 spez tubes left on planet earth.


----------



## SonicTrance (Jan 12, 2020)

DecentLevi said:


> Is this a tube rolling amp? (is it possible or recommended, and if so which types are compatible)


No, the amps I build are not made for tube rolling. I have selected tubes that are very linear, still cheap and are quiet. Those are the three most important things when selecting tubes. There're also some other things like internal resistance in the output tubes can't be too high.



DecentLevi said:


> - What is the concept behind the design of a small looking round transformer housed in a hefty sized amp? (apologies for a dumb question)


Not sure I understand your reasoning here? Would you have preferred a bigger PT? It's an 250VA audio grade toroidal transformer under there and they make excellent PT's for audio use. It's highly overkill for these amps. There's no power supply noise at all. If there's some tiny background noise it's coming from the tubes. The large chassis is needed to fit everything on the inside.



DecentLevi said:


> - Is this an OTL or a SET (transformer coupled) amp, and is there any advantage of this over a SET amp?


None of the above.
Oblivion has SE input stage and balanced LTP output stage. Citadel has LTP input- and output stage. The output is parafeed transformer output.
There're many advantages as I see it. Some advantages my amps has over a traditional SET amp is the overkill transient control, no need for boutique parts for high fidelity sound. You can read all about this topology on my website, link is in first post of this thread. I'm not allowed to post the link.
Also like to point out that there's nothing wrong with traditional designs either! Downside is you need to spend $$$ for great sound.



DecentLevi said:


> - Would this be advisable to pair well with the HEDDphone One? It's a new variant of AMT transducer that is said to have similar amping requirements as a hard to drive low-z planar, with the following specs: 87 dB SPL for 1 mW, 42 ohms.


I'm building a Citadel next month for a guy with those cans on pre-order. So, I guess we'll hear some impressions later! But it shouldn't be a problem at all. Especially if you get the hi/low impedance switch option.



DecentLevi said:


> - Moreover which headphone impedance specs is this said to pair well with?


Basically all impedance's work. There're great impressions with low Z planars as well as high Z dynamics. It also drives speakers.



DecentLevi said:


> - Do you make Oblivion amps with also a SE output or only balanced?


I can build with SE output but I'd recommend getting balanced cables for your cans instead.



DecentLevi said:


> This seems quite intriguing considering a $1,500(+/-) amp is said to compete with the almighty Woo Audio WA33!


Price increases a bit soon as you can read on previous page.


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> Price increases a bit soon as you can read on previous page.



Still sounds like great value to me!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I don't even care about tube rolling anymore. I am just exploring music these days ...…



That is what it's all about after all!


----------



## omniweltall

@SonicTrance Hi mate, how much the Oblivion weight (including packaging)?


----------



## SonicTrance

omniweltall said:


> @SonicTrance Hi mate, how much the Oblivion weight (including packaging)?


Hi,
The package weighs just over 15kg.


----------



## joseph69

SonicTrance said:


> I'm building a Citadel next month for a guy with those cans on pre-order. So, I guess we'll hear some impressions later! But it shouldn't be a problem at all. Especially if you get the hi/low impedance switch option.


@DecentLevi 
That guy would be me.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> No cliche or obsessions for me. This is not my watering hole. I didn't find Oblivion but it found me. It's the reason I'm here.
> 
> Like Indiana Jones who is the raider of the Lost Ark, I was on a mission with 2 other tube amps in sight. I name them Berlin and Sydney. Berlin is going to use Telefunken EL11 as drivers and Telefunken EL12 spez as power tubes. Sydney is going to use 12AU7 as drivers and KT66, KT77, 6L6, 6V6, KT88, etc as power tubes. Sydney would probably have cost me US$2000 in tubes alone. Both would be set amps using Lundahl transformers and Jupiter caps, special chassis, Yamamoto's sockets and all the boutique parts.
> 
> ...


Can't argue with any of that. If I didn't already have the KT66, etc tubes I'd probably also be ordering a Citadel or Oblivion. My new years resolution was to not buy any more tubes this year (I have 900 and my music room is full). So far, so good...

I too will be leaving a bunch of tubes sitting on the shelves. My 1101 amp also uses CCS, and a design that doesn't involve tube rectification. The bass is so powerful, that sometimes I find myself looking for tubes that turn down the bass a little, or I switch out the LCD-4 and plug-in the Stellia. No more tube rectification for me. 

Quite the journey we've been on  I'm settled on 2 amps (1101 V6 aka "Thunder" and Glenn 300B), but a third will be purchased in the latter half of the year - most likely "Lightning". If shipping wasn't so expensive, it would have been fun to do an amp swap at some point.


----------



## MrCurwen

Sonic of course already replied, but I'll put my thoughts out also. I am the designer who put together the topologies these amps utilize.



DecentLevi said:


> - What is the concept behind the design of a small looking round transformer housed in a hefty sized amp? (apologies for a dumb question)



Like already said, it's just the power transformer. Whether or not the visual of the cover looks nice is subjective. I think it looks very nice, it has good synergy with the black hats the output tubes have.

The PT is not small, it's overkill. Same for the OTs.



DecentLevi said:


> - Is this an OTL or a SET (transformer coupled) amp, and is there any advantage of this over a SET amp?



If SET stands for single ended transformer coupled, then no, the amp is not SET since it has a fully balanced output stage.

As said, it is a parafeed design. Utilizing parafeed and sufficiently low output impedance driving the OT primary, the OT becomes 'transparent'. In technical terms it just means that all the nasty parasitics and reactances the OT primary coil has, are oversaturated with current, and thus satisfied.

The advantage of this approach is that you can use a 'cheap' OT with "bad bandwidth specs", and get a flat and full bandwidth response out of it, with sharp transients (transients are difficult for reactive coils) and full transparency. All this without using any big name iron. The OT is simply "played out of the equation".

And yes, I came up with this approach by not affording good iron. I made good iron obsolete. Cheapness is the mother of invention or cleverness.



DecentLevi said:


> - Would this be advisable to pair well with the HEDDphone One? It's a new variant of AMT transducer that is said to have similar amping requirements as a hard to drive low-z planar, with the following specs: 87 dB SPL for 1 mW, 42 ohms.



Yes, the amp can drive almost anything. Real output impedance is very low, so it can handle whatever you may throw at it, including, as mentioned, speakers (within reasonable volumes).



DecentLevi said:


> - Moreover which headphone impedance specs is this said to pair well with?



All.

Let's take an optics analogy. The OT acts as a lens. Impedances on the primary side are 'high' and on the secondary side 'low'. Now if you have a 'low' impedance on the primary side, the secondary side focuses this like a lens, to make it even lower. So plenty of overkill drive available for all loads.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hey guys thanks so much for your replies. This amp certainly does seem intriguing and unique. I'm a little slow to reply because of my work schedule and just barely started to skim through this thread. I didn't see any price on the previous page, only talk about $7 tubes, can someone post a link to that price difference? I will respond later when I have time, and oh about my first response I was a little light-headed at the moment so my words could have been a little 'off'.


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> Hey guys thanks so much for your replies. This amp certainly does seem intriguing and unique. I'm a little slow to reply because of my work schedule and just barely started to skim through this thread. I didn't see any price on the previous page, only talk about $7 tubes, can someone post a link to that price difference? I will respond later when I have time, and oh about my first response I was a little light-headed at the moment so my words could have been a little 'off'.





SonicTrance said:


> I just finished a Citadel with impedance switch, speaker outputs and RCA inputs. This is the first Citadel with the new layout. I'm very happy with how it turned out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Quite the journey we've been on  I'm settled on 2 amps (1101 V6 aka "Thunder" and Glenn 300B), but a third will be purchased in the latter half of the year - most likely "Lightning". If shipping wasn't so expensive, it would have been fun to do an amp swap at some point.



Thunder and Lightning, that's AC/DC song Thunderstruck ! 

Last year I was pretty much '*ampstruck*'. This year and going forward I'll keep it simple and easy on the wallet. I am very happy with Yggdrasil > Oblivion > Verite / HD800. Furthermore the amp drives my Axis Voicebox S at a level I'm comfortable with at near field listening. The amp is quiet. No hiss or hum. Just quiet. Each time I power it up, it goes through the routine. The meter needle shoots up to 30 and I know I'm ready to start listening. For once I didn't scout ebay daily for tubes to buy. I've been weened of expensive tubes dependency. These RCA 6AV6 and Siemens EL81 that Sonic send is perfect. 

Each time I go back to Studio Six or GOTL, I miss the amazing clarity and details plus the expansive soundstage and precise imaging of Oblivion. The 3D effect is real. The amp reveals how a headphone should sound. There's no glare or harshness. This last point is very important with HD800. I could listen to music with HD800 and Oblivion and never felt the need to mod the headphone. There's no glare or sharp peaks. Simply not there. The fast transient speed and agility of Oblivion is my favourite. 

After about 5 intense years with Head-Fi, I'm ready to walk off into the sunset with this combination... and enjoy travels and holidays with my wife.

Yup the expensive shipping for us to swap our amps to try, will sink Dow Jones. 

Enjoy your amps Leftside !


----------



## DecentLevi (Jan 13, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> No cliche or obsessions for me. This is not my watering hole. I didn't find Oblivion but it found me. It's the reason I'm here.
> 
> Like Indiana Jones who is the raider of the Lost Ark, I was on a mission with 2 other tube amps in sight. I name them Berlin and Sydney. Berlin is going to use Telefunken EL11 as drivers and Telefunken EL12 spez as power tubes. Sydney is going to use 12AU7 as drivers and KT66, KT77, 6L6, 6V6, KT88, etc as power tubes. Sydney would probably have cost me US$2000 in tubes alone. Both would be set amps using Lundahl transformers and Jupiter caps, special chassis, Yamamoto's sockets and all the boutique parts.
> 
> ...



UT I congratulate you on such a fantastic discovery. Both of us have been on a similar audio journey for the last 5 years with many twists, turns and discoveries / innovations. Absolutely, no judgement whatsoever based on things like manufacture names or cost. Personally I don't care about brands such as clothes or electronics, as long as the specs or fit is good. But for the Ultrasonic Studios brand, it does seem like a maverick of an little known company in its' own class. I also put little wight on price in this hobby, because all too often people dismiss a piece of gear just because it doesn't 'cost enough', so then the more for the lucky ones to look past it like a cheap headphone. By no means does this amp look cheap, and I am just starting to understand it and the design, certainly looks like something to behold.

For my current amp journey, I do say I'm in too deep with another project. I'm toward the end of a multi-month wait list for a SET amp from Glenn Studios that I custom ordered with options such as single or two stage function, driving speakers, rectifier socket that can also be interchanged with a Hexfred diode with and a few internal upgrades. Especially I'm interested in trying the sound of many 6L6 series and EL12 power tubes, along with dozens of driver types (including multiple purchases I've got in anticipation). The dear adapter craftsman Deyan has already finished custom making over a dozen adapters for the amp which cost me also. In the end this path will cost more and by no means would I say it will sound better without first comparing both, but I would hate to turn this all down after all this momentum. At least I can experience all the flavors of my Glenn SET amp, and look towards Ultrasonic Studios as a possible option.


----------



## DecentLevi

SonicTrance said:


> No, the amps I build are not made for tube rolling. I have selected tubes that are very linear, still cheap and are quiet. Those are the three most important things when selecting tubes. There're also some other things like internal resistance in the output tubes can't be too high.
> 
> 
> Not sure I understand your reasoning here? Would you have preferred a bigger PT? It's an 250VA audio grade toroidal transformer under there and they make excellent PT's for audio use. It's highly overkill for these amps. There's no power supply noise at all. If there's some tiny background noise it's coming from the tubes. The large chassis is needed to fit everything on the inside.
> ...



Understood about tube rolling. So your amp would seem to be basically built for the best possible operation points around certain tubes. I would see myself also possibly still being interested to roll 1-2 other variants of the same tube type, if applicable and only if ensuring they are 100% within tolerance level.

Apologies for my wording of that question about the design, I knew my words weren't coming out right there. I was comparing your amps' appearance to that of a Glenn Sutdios EL3N SET amp with the 3 fairly bulky transformers in the back, and on some of the photos your Oblivion amp actually looks small (yup, eyes playing tricks on me LOL), and there I saw your amp with what appears to be a circular transformer in the center that looks somewhat small relative to the chassis. But now I know this is not the same amp topology as the former OTL / SET amps I was familiar with, hence the different design. And I'm curious is the transformer smaller than the Lundahl used on Glenn's amps? (I'm sure size shouldn't matter, just curious only).

In terms of TLP or parafeed, and the difference between the Oblivion vs. Citadel, these are things I will learn as time goes by. I've barely had the time to start reading this thread with my schedule. 

You were saying basically all impedance's are driven well. That's interesting. Is it something akin to 'current mode' amplification, in that the amp automatically adjusts bias depending on the resistance it detects from the headphone?

If I were to eventually get one of your amps I would prefer it to have RCA input and both balanced and SE outputs so I can also use it with a few of my headphones that are not user friendly for cable swapping.


----------



## MrCurwen

DecentLevi said:


> You were saying basically all impedance's are driven well. That's interesting. Is it something akin to 'current mode' amplification, in that the amp automatically adjusts bias depending on the resistance it detects from the headphone?



In the end it all comes down to having current delivery capability. Bias is fixed to a present current amount by a powerful CCS.

Low output impedance driving a downstep OT will result in radically low output impedance on the secondary side. What output impedance in this context means is simply ability to deliver almost any amount of current the load would ask. Ultimate limiting factor here is the preset bias set in the output LTP. If that current runs out, the amp hard clips. This is not easy to accomplish.


----------



## baronbeehive

DecentLevi said:


> I also put little wight on price in this hobby, because all too often people dismiss a piece of gear just because it doesn't 'cost enough'



Indeed, I have come across this attitude with my APPJ amp, a $180 amp which holds its own with the big boys. Since owning and upgrading this little amp over the last 10 years or so I have never looked back!


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> You were saying basically all impedance's are driven well. That's interesting. Is it something akin to 'current mode' amplification, in that the amp automatically adjusts bias depending on the resistance it detects from the headphone?





MrCurwen said:


> In the end it all comes down to having current delivery capability. Bias is fixed to a present current amount by a powerful CCS.
> 
> Low output impedance driving a downstep OT will result in radically low output impedance on the secondary side. What output impedance in this context means is simply ability to deliver almost any amount of current the load would ask. Ultimate limiting factor here is the preset bias set in the output LTP. If that current runs out, the amp hard clips. This is not easy to accomplish.


MrC answered nicely. The power output measurements I've posted on my website is right before hard clipping, and that's at ear bleeding levels for headphones.



DecentLevi said:


> If I were to eventually get one of your amps I would prefer it to have RCA input and both balanced and SE outputs so I can also use it with a few of my headphones that are not user friendly for cable swapping.


It would complicate things somewhat but it's doable.You wouldn't be able to use the SE output and balanced at the same time though. There would have to be a switch to toggle the SE output.


----------



## mordy

baronbeehive said:


> Indeed, I have come across this attitude with my APPJ amp, a $180 amp which holds its own with the big boys. Since owning and upgrading this little amp over the last 10 years or so I have never looked back!


Out of curiosity - which model APPJ amp are you referring to?


----------



## baronbeehive

mordy said:


> Out of curiosity - which model APPJ amp are you referring to?



The Miniwatt N3, now called the APPJ PA0901A speaker amp, reviewed by 6moons. The amp model has been revised recently but is still available in its original form.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> UT I congratulate you on such a fantastic discovery.



I don't get fazed easily now by gear, so 'congratulate' doesn't seem quite appropriate. Nevertheless I thank you for your good intentions. You probably have not read through the thread because if you had, you would have known that Oblivion was send to me for review. Sonic was going to pay for shipping both ways. On my part, all I had to do was do an appraisal, in comparison with my other amps - tell it like it is - then send it back to him. 

However I like what I hear in Oblivion - a lot - so I told Sonic that I'm buying it instead of sending it back. 

And that's how I had that chance encounter with Oblivion. I have never make much mention of the fact that Oblivion is an incredible value for money because all the boxes that the amp tick for me has been more important. Primarily sound and quietness. Nothing else matters.


----------



## DecentLevi

MrCurwen said:


> Sonic of course already replied, but I'll put my thoughts out also. I am the designer who put together the topologies these amps utilize.
> 
> Like already said, it's just the power transformer. Whether or not the visual of the cover looks nice is subjective. I think it looks very nice, it has good synergy with the black hats the output tubes have.
> 
> ...



Oh yes I think it looks quite great too. I just didn't understand what I was looking at and poorly worded my question. It seems to not need transformers quite as large as the 3x for a Glenn SET amp, or they're hidden under the hood. It has a futuristic and symmetrical look.

Yup by SET I meant single ended triode transformer coupled amp. I think OT is output transformer, but could you fill me on on what LTP and CCS stand for?



MrCurwen said:


> In the end it all comes down to having current delivery capability. Bias is fixed to a present current amount by a powerful CCS.
> 
> Low output impedance driving a downstep OT will result in radically low output impedance on the secondary side. What output impedance in this context means is simply ability to deliver almost any amount of current the load would ask. Ultimate limiting factor here is the preset bias set in the output LTP. If that current runs out, the amp hard clips. This is not easy to accomplish.



From what I can understand it seems you have made a major breakthrough in design that allows the amp to have lower distortion and better dynamics than traditional ones and is adaptable to any headphone impedance. One couldn't really ask for a better amp concept than that, seems a huge accomplishment.


----------



## DecentLevi

SonicTrance said:


> MrC answered nicely. The power output measurements I've posted on my website is right before hard clipping, and that's at ear bleeding levels for headphones.
> 
> It would complicate things somewhat but it's doable.You wouldn't be able to use the SE output and balanced at the same time though. There would have to be a switch to toggle the SE output.



I think I would only want a toggle switch if somehow it can be in place without adding to the signal path, or somehow with such fine quality conductors that it won't degrade the ultimate purity of the signal to the headphone. (comments on that?) Otherwise I'd probably just go for a good (external) balanced XLR to 6.5mm adapter for the occasional headphones that need it. (if such adapter wouldn't short circuit anything).

Speaking of switches, I read the Citadel has an impedance switch. Would you say this improves the compatibility with headphones even more than the Oblivion amp? Because to my understanding, the Oblivion has a way of adapting to almost any headphone impedance automatically. Also does the Citadel have this same sort of topology stated by Mr.Curren as "_current delivery capability. Bias is fixed to a present current amount by a powerful CCS._"? thanks


----------



## MrCurwen

DecentLevi said:


> It seems to not need transformers quite as large as the 3x for a Glenn SET amp, or they're hidden under the hood.



Yes exactly. The main reason transformers need mass, bulk, is because they need to be able to deal with DC current. In a parafeed topology there is no DC going thru the OT primary. This lessens the "iron requirements" a lot. The low impedance drive lessen them further.



DecentLevi said:


> I think OT is output transformer, but could you fill me on on what LTP and CCS stand for?



Yes OT is output transformer. LTP is long tailed pair and CCS is constant current source / sink.

LTP was originally invented as a topology in the early days of tubes about a hundred years ago. The basic idea of it is to have two tubes handling a signal in antiphase, meaning if one sees an input signal going up in voltage, the other sees in input signal going down in voltage. That's the 'pair'.

The 'tail' is the component that is between both of the tubes and ground (or negative supply). It is supposed to be as 'long' as possible, meaning that it should be the dominant impedance in the whole system. Remember Kirchoff's law; the tail is in series with both tubes.

Now in the early days there were no practical active solutions, the tail was simply a resistor, or a choke. A choke can do things there, but it has some serious drawbacks.

Modern solution is to utilize a for example FET based CCS. This can easily completely overpower the other components in the system, thus fullfilling that requirement of being 'long'.

In short, the amount to which the tail is able to keep the current contant, is the amount of balance the two tubes will have. I could go on forever, but this gives some basic insight into what's going on.



DecentLevi said:


> From what I can understand it seems you have made a major breakthrough in design that allows the amp to have lower distortion and better dynamics than traditional ones and is adaptable to any headphone impedance. One couldn't really ask for a better amp concept than that, seems a huge accomplishment.



I didn't invent the CCS or the grid driver or the gyrator plate loads, or parafeed or LTP's, but for a pretty long time I didn't see anybody else put all of this together in this way. I did come up with the topology 'locally' on my own. I am also able to understand the reasons why it should be done, it wasn't an accident. It is only a matter of time before these ideas spread further.

I am very happy with the amps I use for my own use. I'm glad to see Sonic make beautiful (and reliable) products to spread the message of HIGH END AUDIO based on tech not "who's got the most iron" or "the flavour of the month tubes" or silly stuff like that that is all around.


----------



## MrCurwen (Jan 14, 2020)

This thread is about Sonic's products, not my personal opinions so message retracted.


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> I think I would only want a toggle switch if somehow it can be in place without adding to the signal path, or somehow with such fine quality conductors that it won't degrade the ultimate purity of the signal to the headphone. (comments on that?)


The switch would be in the path to ground. It won't degrade anything. Don't worry about that.



DecentLevi said:


> Otherwise I'd probably just go for a good (external) balanced XLR to 6.5mm adapter for the occasional headphones that need it. (if such adapter wouldn't short circuit anything).


I would never recommend such an adapter. Never use a balanced to SE adapter of any kind. 



DecentLevi said:


> Speaking of switches, I read the Citadel has an impedance switch. Would you say this improves the compatibility with headphones even more than the Oblivion amp?


Both Citadel and Oblivion can be built with impedance switch.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Speaking of switches, I read the Citadel has an impedance switch. Would you say this improves the compatibility with headphones even more than the Oblivion amp?



My Oblivion (I'm calling it mine now ) has an impedance switch for high and low impedance. It's left on at high impedance because both my headphones are 300 ohms.

MrCurwen explains the technical stuff with ease. Even though I don't understand half of it, I find it fascinating to read. 

Oblivion has a high fidelity tone. Feed it a HQ signal and you'll be even more amazed. My amp is starting to blossom out. I've not heard bass and bass drums sound with such impact than today and it is with the HD800  Volume is not even at 10 o'clock.


----------



## baronbeehive (Jan 14, 2020)

DecentLevi said:


> It seems to not need transformers quite as large as the 3x for a Glenn SET amp, or they're hidden under the hood. It has a futuristic and symmetrical look.
> ...
> 
> From what I can understand it seems you have made a major breakthrough in design that allows the amp to have lower distortion and better dynamics than traditional ones and is adaptable to any headphone impedance. One couldn't really ask for a better amp concept than that, seems a huge accomplishment.



I didn't really want to get into the subject of transformers from my limited understanding except to say that it appears to be another area that people are prejudiced about, like balanced versus SE, tubes versus hybrid, low power versus high power and so on. Some of the OTL people are against seeing an OT because it gets in the way of the signal on output. But this is an example of the design where the right component is used in the right way in combination with the other components: low power>low parasitics>OT parafeed>low impedance>music. If any of these factors were altered it would create problems further down the line, for example many would not want anything underpowered, say below 100W but this would not be possible with this particular design. And it is precisely this design that is able to bring out the best in tube sound, for example open accurate soundstage, as in the review earlier.

Others will comment on theory and correct me if I'm wrong.

The point is that the amp has been designed from the bottom up for precisely low distortion and great dynamics as I understand it.


----------



## UntilThen

I have been using these Forza Audioworks xlr balanced cables for my Verite/LCD3 and HD800 for a while. They suit the xlr headphone out on the Oblivion. I don't spend a lot on cables so these will do.


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## baronbeehive (Jan 14, 2020)

I missed something important from my previous post: low power>low parasitics>OT parafeed>low impedance>music>*SONIC BLISS!!*

Of course its more complicated than that but for the point about the transformer, everything in the component chain is geared up to producing the object of the exercise - low impedance on output, as this has been achieved, with the aid of the OT, we can't ask for more.


----------



## mordy

If I understand correctly, in order to use my Sennheiser HD650 or Beyerdynamic T1 headphones that come with a 1/4" headphone plug, with the Oblivion amp, I would need to buy 4-pin XLR balanced headphone cables for these headphones?
Apparently, an adapter from 1/4" to XLR would not do the job?


----------



## SonicTrance

mordy said:


> If I understand correctly, in order to use my Sennheiser HD650 or Beyerdynamic T1 headphones that come with a 1/4" headphone plug, with the Oblivion amp, I would need to buy 4-pin XLR balanced headphone cables for these headphones?
> Apparently, an adapter from 1/4" to XLR would not do the job?


It depends on how the adapter is wired. But I can build an Oblivion with balanced and SE output as add-on or only SE out as well.


----------



## mordy

Is there a big difference in sound using balanced or SE out?


----------



## SonicTrance

mordy said:


> Is there a big difference in sound using balanced or SE out?


There's no night and day difference. But the balanced output is technically better. My reasoning is why not use the best possible output when you're building a balanced amp.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jan 15, 2020)

joseph69 said:


> I put down (half the cost) for a custom built Citadel this afternoon. So I'm half way there! I really found the photos of Tomas's (Ultrasonic Studios) personal build very appealing (below).
> 
> So I asked him if he could build me one and he replied that this was the Citadels topology, but this used 2 separate chassis for the amp/PSU, and he said he could build this in 1 chassis for me (like the black Citadel).
> 
> ...


That's interesting, at first glance I thought that was the WA33. I'm curious to know what is your concept behind this design - just because you prefer this appearance or is there any other benefits vs. the Citadel?
Also that sure will be interesting to see a comparison between the Citadel based amp and the WA33, after you've had time with it. I see you also have a GSX MKII, makes me wonder why you would even want anything more with those both (I've tried both and can never forget the astonishing sound). How long is your wait for the Ultrasonic Studios amp?


----------



## DecentLevi

@SonicTrance 
Would you mind to post what are the main differences between Oblivion and Citadel, such as internal differences, or difference in sound due to different tube types? Feel free to post a link to the answer if it's been explained. I could only read the last 5 pages so far due to work schedule.

Also about the tube compliment of your Citadel. You said its' 6BG6 or 6P7S tubes are similar to 6L6. Does this mean the 6L6 series would be compatible? Or would that require a different internal circuit such as different cathode resistor bias? If so, that would open up interesting doors for tube rolling 6L6 series such as KT66, KT88 and several EL series with adapters (perhaps).
Then what about the 6SL7 drivers... 6SN7 being the same circuit with lower gain; would those simply require a higher volume pot position, or are they not recommended? 6SN7 compatibility would open many interchangeable options as well.


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> Would you mind to post what are the main differences between Oblivion and Citadel, such as internal differences, or difference in sound due to different tube types? Feel free to post a link to the answer if it's been explained. I could only read the last 5 pages so far due to work schedule.


Please read the website. The differences between Oblivion and Citadel are explained there.



DecentLevi said:


> Also about the tube compliment of your Citadel. You said its' 6BG6 or 6P7S tubes are similar to 6L6. Does this mean the 6L6 series would be compatible? Or would that require a different internal circuit such as different cathode resistor bias? If so, that would open up interesting doors for tube rolling 6L6 series such as KT66, KT88 and several EL series with adapters (perhaps).


The Citadel comes with 6P31S output tubes as stock. @joseph69 Citadel is a special version with a different chassis and different output tubes, 6P7S.
There's no tube rolling possible there as the tubes have a anode cap that needs to be used. 
I could do a build based around the 6L6 as well. But, you need to understand that these are not tube rolling amps. I use tubes that are linear, quiet, have right amount of gain and low internal resistance. If all those boxes are checked and you put the tube in this circuit there will be minimal, if any, sound differences.



DecentLevi said:


> Then what about the 6SL7 drivers... 6SN7 being the same circuit with lower gain; would those simply require a higher volume pot position, or are they not recommended? 6SN7 compatibility would open many interchangeable options as well.


You could plug a 6SN7 in the Citadel. It won't hurt anything but the 6SN7 would be starved for current. It wouldn't operate in its linear region at all.

I understand the urge to tube roll, I really do. I was the same way before MrCurwen introduced and mentored me with this circuit. But now I see no point what so ever to tube roll.


----------



## UntilThen

The last time I change a tube was on the 23rd of Dec 2019.... on Studio Six. I never had to change a tube again.

I use Oblivion to watch movies. I use it to listen to music. All I had to do was turn it on. That's how it should be.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> The last time I change a tube was on the 23rd of Dec 2019.... on Studio Six. I never had to change a tube again.
> 
> I use Oblivion to watch movies. I use it to listen to music. All I had to do was turn it on. That's how it should be.



Last time for me was several years ago!

Yes tube rolling is addictive, but really all it is is getting different effects from using different tubes at different operating points.

What I really look for these days is transparency and realism, like having a band like Fourplay...(insert your preferences here...), in your sitting room, a few inches from your ear... (that might be difficult in my average sized room).


----------



## joseph69

DecentLevi said:


> That's interesting, at first glance I thought that was the WA33. I'm curious to know what is your concept behind this design - just because you prefer this appearance or is there any other benefits vs. the Citadel?
> Also that sure will be interesting to see a comparison between the Citadel based amp and the WA33, after you've had time with it. I see you also have a GSX MKII, makes me wonder why you would even want anything more with those both (I've tried both and can never forget the astonishing sound). How long is your wait for the Ultrasonic Studios amp?


Yes, I simply prefer the chassis aesthetics and silver color over the black Citadel shown on the Ultrasonics site. That's not to say I wouldn't have purchased the Citadel on the site if I couldn't have the one I ordered, because it is very appealing, and even mores so since the tube rearrangement IMO.

I'm also very interested in the topology (to the extent of my understanding) used in the Citadel and its simplicity  which makes me wanting to hear it even more, especially at its price point and not having to spend thousands on tubes. I also appreciate the hybrid design and each component specifically doing what it's meant to do.

It's not that I want anything "more" it's just that I enjoy trying different things. I've mentioned this when I sold my Stax 007mk2/009 & BHSE (which most couldn't understand at all). After owning something for a good amount of time I tend to get too use to whatever it may be and bored and I like to move on and try other things, it's part of the hobby for me.

Also, don't get me wrong, I enjoy my WA33 & GS-X (GS-X is never going anywhere) very, very much, more than any other amps I've owned, but I don't know where the Citadel is going to lead me after listening to the differences between the three, so this peaks my interest and curiosity as well as giving me something to look forward to doing...again as part of the hobby for me.




baronbeehive said:


> like having a band like Fourplay


Huge fan of Fourplay!


----------



## Phantaminum

UntilThen said:


> The last time I change a tube was on the 23rd of Dec 2019.... on Studio Six. I never had to change a tube again.
> 
> I use Oblivion to watch movies. I use it to listen to music. All I had to do was turn it on. That's how it should be.



The Oblivion is a mighty fine workhorse. You don’t feel bad for buying tubes because they are cheap, you don’t feel bad using up the tubes, because they are cheap, and the topology of the amp allows you to run them for a long time. What’s not cheap is the sound, detail, and transparency. I’m enjoying the Focal Elex on the Oblivion and don’t find it bright at all. I think most of the Focal lineup will pair up quite nicely with this amp. I still wouldn’t replace the tone and timbre of the Auteur with the Focals.


----------



## UntilThen

It's the weekend ! As soon as I got home, I fired up GOTL and Oblivion. Keen to have another listen of them side by side. 

GOTL is sporting the famed Tung Sol 12SL7GT black glass round plates and 6 x 6BX7gt of the RCA and Sylvania varieties. I have not heard GOTL for some time and when I heard it now, I can see why I call it my end game amp a little over a year ago. Astonishing dynamics and caressing vocals with a mid bass to die for. I could fall in love again.

Then I swap over to Oblivion and I can't believe the width of the soundstage and the immediacy of the musical notes. It's literally dancing across my head. The fast transient attack, the arresting sustain at it's peak and swiss watch precision timed decay, makes you want to tap every part of your body..... if that is possible.

So like @joseph69, gear will come and go for me.... and I'll very reluctantly put GOTL on sale this weekend. Someone's going to be very happy with it and the choice tubes that I'm offering with it.... plus it has 7 new octal sockets, some caps and resistors replaced. It's like a new amp just having been health check.


----------



## UntilThen

Phantaminum said:


> You don’t feel bad for buying tubes because they are cheap, you don’t feel bad using up the tubes, because they are cheap, and the topology of the amp allows you to run them for a long time.



I go on ebay and it's mainly Bangybang that's selling 6AV6 tubes and he's selling them for US$84 a pair !!! Like these nice Tung Sol  https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-Vinta...ube/303387834642?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

How could he sell my tubes for so much? I thought these are TV sweep tubes 

EL81 ain't too bad. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EL81-6C...ble/201614272202?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I go on ebay and it's mainly Bangybang that's selling 6AV6 tubes and he's selling them for US$84 a pair !!! Like these nice Tung Sol  https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-Vinta...ube/303387834642?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144
> 
> How could he sell my tubes for so much? I thought these are TV sweep tubes
> 
> EL81 ain't too bad. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EL81-6C...ble/201614272202?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144


Don't buy those 6AV6's, way overpriced. Good price on the EL81's though!

It's the output tubes I use that are TV sweep tubes. The 6AV6's triode section is a regular voltage amplifier. There's also a couple of diodes inside which I don't use. The triode section is basically identical to half of a 12AX7.


----------



## MrCurwen

A very good octal input tube would be soviet 6G2, it has µ of 100, perfect curves and a beautiful metal envelope. Price is decent. Just ground the diodes.


----------



## MrCurwen

TV tubes as a class are going up in prices, and fast.

Just look at the "first discovered" american compactrons. They're well over 40 USD a piece now. I was lurking the legendary sweep tube thread on another forum from the beginning, they used to be almost given away for free back then.

Things change. 

European TV tubes are still mostly decent priced, and soviet tubes surely are. Better get a stash before the soviet stigma (which is not in reality related to the actual quality, but the image) is finally lifted. Hopefully not for years.


----------



## MrCurwen

Well Sonic is gonna need himself these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Telefun...113606?hash=item3b3f5cc046:g:n6oAAOSwj7ZdeI4B


----------



## UntilThen

MrCurwen said:


> Well Sonic is gonna need himself these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Telefun...113606?hash=item3b3f5cc046:g:n6oAAOSwj7ZdeI4B



What in the world is that... I've not seen any 6sn7 so expensive.


----------



## Phantaminum

UntilThen said:


> I go on ebay and it's mainly Bangybang that's selling 6AV6 tubes and he's selling them for US$84 a pair !!! Like these nice Tung Sol  https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-Vinta...ube/303387834642?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144
> 
> How could he sell my tubes for so much? I thought these are TV sweep tubes
> 
> EL81 ain't too bad. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EL81-6C...ble/201614272202?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144



Oh, you can ask me, @UntilThen, and the rest of the guys in any of the tube rolling threads about "Bangy Bangy Tubes". From marking on tubes that looked to be added on, to selling cheap tubes at a huge mark up because they're "Platinum grade", to a bunch of other shady practices. That guy is something, lol. 

All of the tubes on the Oblivion were reasonably priced that I thought I was getting away with murder after the purchase. Especially after spending $500 for a pair of GEC 6AS7G power tubes. Yeesh...


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> What in the world is that... I've not seen any 6sn7 so expensive.


Swedish made 6SN7's! I've always wanted a pair because, well, I'm Swedish! But never seen a pair for a reasonable price and probably never will.


----------



## UntilThen

Phantaminum said:


> Especially after spending $500 for a pair of GEC 6AS7G power tubes. Yeesh...



Haha, Langrex is still selling a single for US$326 of the straight brown base variety. https://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7G-CV25...rentrq:b50e697a16f0abc5acde09a8ff789eb8|iid:1

I'll sell off my pair of nearly new curve base for US$500. That should be a bargain.


----------



## UntilThen

I was talking to Sonic that I could be interested in a Citadel later if some chucky nice linear tubes could be found for the output stage and perhaps I could use my beautiful pair of Tung Sol 12SL7GT black glass round plates for the input stage or any of the nice 12SL7GT variety. And.... if the amp could squeeze a bit more power output to about 8 watts into 8 ohms or more... 

Sonic says it's possible with a bigger output transformer which means a bigger chassis with cooling heatsinks. Then he show me this chassis ! That's some serious chassis. 

 

This is the sexy black glass of which I have a NOS pair.


----------



## MrCurwen

May I ask why would you need 8 W RMS?


----------



## MrCurwen

For bigger output power I would recommend 6P36S.


----------



## SonicTrance

MrCurwen said:


> For bigger output power I would recommend 6P36S.


Why? I'm thinking i can still use 6P31S as it has max plate dissipation of 10W. I'm running them at about 3.5W now so I got plenty of headroom there.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> This is the sexy black glass of which I have a NOS pair.



Shameless amp and tube pornography.

My favourite 6SL7's definately, and for some reason cheaper than the 6SN7's, I don't know why considering they both sound exactly the same.


----------



## baronbeehive

MrCurwen said:


> Well Sonic is gonna need himself these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Telefun...113606?hash=item3b3f5cc046:g:n6oAAOSwj7ZdeI4B



Why not, He could easily sell off his Oblivion... and still have money left over!


----------



## baronbeehive

MrCurwen said:


> European TV tubes are still mostly decent priced, and soviet tubes surely are. Better get a stash before the soviet stigma (which is not in reality related to the actual quality, but the image) is finally lifted. Hopefully not for years.



The quality of those Russian tubes appears to me to be quite unrivalled.


----------



## UntilThen

MrCurwen said:


> May I ask why would you need 8 W RMS?



To drive my Axis Voicebox S with more power. I can get it going now but with volume hovering between 12 noon and 3 pm.

https://axisvoicebox.com/


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I'll sell off my pair of nearly new curve base for US$500. That should be a bargain.



Wow, bargain basement prices, watch out for the stampede!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Shameless amp and tube pornography.
> 
> My favourite 6SL7's definately, and for some reason cheaper than the 6SN7's, I don't know why considering they both sound exactly the same.



Yes it's the same famous Tung Sol black glass round plates tone and my NOS pair of TS 12sl7gt bgrp cost me US$99 and not US$500. 

More gain on the 6sl7 too over the 6sn7.


----------



## MrCurwen

SonicTrance said:


> Why? I'm thinking i can still use 6P31S as it has max plate dissipation of 10W. I'm running them at about 3.5W now so I got plenty of headroom there.



Bigger and prettier bottle. No real reason.

I've got a quad. I look at them sometimes and think I need to build a HUGE SE amp with these. They're very pretty.


----------



## SonicTrance

MrCurwen said:


> Bigger and prettier bottle. No real reason.
> 
> I've got a quad. I look at them sometimes and think I need to build a HUGE SE amp with these. They're very pretty.


That's as good reason as any! You know I like big bottles!!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Yes it's the same famous Tung Sol black glass round plates tone and my NOS pair of TS 12sl7gt bgrp cost me US$99 and not US$500.



You might have got mine, I had a stash of these a while back, and much cheaper, yes.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> That's as good reason as any! You know I like big bottles!!



We're lovers of big bottles and fine shape. 

How about this CV1060 which is equivalent to 807 and 6BG6g and 6L6? 

... and Haltron brand !

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/807-SPE...m3d7c0d219b:g:zNcAAOSw0bBdemcm&frcectupt=true


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> You might have got mine, I had a stash of these a while back, and much cheaper, yes.



I've added more tubes to my Oblivion. 

Those are my TS 12sl7gt bgrp with TS boxes from a seller in Arizona.


----------



## MrCurwen

For the price of that one tube, add a couple euros and you get four here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Tested...998922&hash=item2a78dd4b12:g:DUoAAOxyLm9TFigC


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I've added more tubes to my Oblivion.
> 
> Those are my TS 12sl7gt bgrp with TS boxes from a seller in Arizona.



I like the layout you have there!


----------



## UntilThen

MrCurwen said:


> For the price of that one tube, add a couple euros and you get four here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Tested...998922&hash=item2a78dd4b12:g:DUoAAOxyLm9TFigC



Can't get any cheaper than that. 

Or a bit more for 807 brown base https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4x-G807...a=0&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219

Or the mighty rare Foton 6PS7
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4x-RARE...a=0&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219


----------



## UntilThen

Beautiful glow from the 6BG6g. These appears to be similar to 807 and 6L6. https://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42725&view=next


----------



## UntilThen

OMG my GOTL maybe gone sooner than I expected. It's on the 'for sale' thread and I have a super keen buyer.


----------



## Khronos

I am a mere beginner in my journey throughout the realms of Audiophilia. As of right now, this amp is #1 amidst all my choices of my soon-to-begin journey into the deeper realms of this money-sucking Hobby (even with the nearby €450 price increases). Though, after reading your review, I have some questions.

As of right now, I have (or had) three choices to top my list directly into Endgame:

The recently-launched Heddphone (which is, as of right now in Limbo since I am a lover of Enveloping Sound, where the Heddphone seems to be- Not quite enveloping)

The Hifiman Arya (as of right now, my top choice. Especially since I can get it Open-Box for cheap)

And thanks to your review: The Verum One (which I had indeed considered before, though put aside thanks to other choices).

How would you say the Verum compare to your ZMFs and Ananda?

Are they competitive against a well-driven Auteur/Verite?

Can they defeat the Ananda off the Oblivion?

I thank you very much for any commentary on this. Have a good day/evening.


----------



## UntilThen

That's a question for Phantam. He's the one who talks about the Verum One.

You can't go wrong with Oblivion as your number 1 choice for amp. With this amp, you can start collecting more money sucking headphones.  I've got one in mind later this year. It's the LCD-4.


----------



## Khronos

UntilThen said:


> That's a question for Phantam. He's the one who talks about the Verum One.
> 
> You can't go wrong with Oblivion as your number 1 choice for amp. With this amp, you can start collecting more money sucking headphones.  I've got one in mind later this year. It's the LCD-4.




Press F to pay respects for my wallet. 

And I could have sworn I quoted his post. 

Oh well, I guess I will have to rewrite.


----------



## UntilThen

Khronos said:


> Press F to pay respects for my wallet.
> 
> And I could have sworn I quoted his post.
> 
> Oh well, I guess I will have to rewrite.



Although if I'm smart, I should have ask you to buy my GOTL in the 'For sale' but because I'm an honest John, I have to tell you that I much prefer the Oblivion to the GOTL. 

What a silly seller I am.


----------



## Khronos

UntilThen said:


> Although if I'm smart, I should have ask you to buy my GOTL in the 'For sale' but because I'm an honest John, I have to tell you that I much prefer the Oblivion to the GOTL.
> 
> What a silly seller I am.



As much fun as that amp seems to be, and as gorgeous as it is, I need an amp that can drive speakers. Plus, the Step-Up transformer would be quite the cost upon the amp-plus-shipping hit.
In any case, I truly hope your baby finds a new home!


----------



## UntilThen

Khronos said:


> As much fun as that amp seems to be, and as gorgeous as it is, I need an amp that can drive speakers. Plus, the Step-Up transformer would be quite the cost upon the amp-plus-shipping hit.
> In any case, I truly hope your baby finds a new home!



It's found a new home now. Payment will be coming to me in the next minute.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> To drive my Axis Voicebox S with more power. I can get it going now but with volume hovering between 12 noon and 3 pm.
> 
> https://axisvoicebox.com/


Output power and how much you need to turn the volume knob is not the same thing. Output power is the amount of headroom you have for clean, unclipped, audio signal. If you want to turn the volume knob less, for same amount of volume, it's more gain you want. More gain is easy to get by designing around different tubes. Citadel already has more gain than Oblivion though. More gain also affects the headphone output though. So there needs to be a nice balance there. Personally, I don't mind using most of the potentiometers range.


----------



## SonicTrance (Jan 18, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> Beautiful glow from the 6BG6g.


Highly overexposed pic, unfortunately. They're nice big bulbs but as far as glow.. not so much 
I like how that chassis is welded together! That's some hard core DIY right there!


----------



## baronbeehive

Khronos said:


> I am a mere beginner in my journey throughout the realms of Audiophilia. As of right now, this amp is #1 amidst all my choices of my soon-to-begin journey into the deeper realms of this money-sucking Hobby (even with the nearby €450 price increases).



You are in a very fortunate position then, you could skip all the painful..., to the wallet..., interim stages, and go straight to "finish" with this amp, especially if your sound preferences are of the more transparent, and open kind.


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> I like how that chassis is welded together!



So, you're starting to notice these things now that you are a builder lol! I must admit such details pass me by.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Output power and how much you need to turn the volume knob is not the same thing. Output power is the amount of headroom you have for clean, unclipped, audio signal. If you want to turn the volume knob less, for same amount of volume, it's more gain you want. More gain is easy to get by designing around different tubes. Citadel already has more gain than Oblivion though. More gain also affects the headphone output though. So there needs to be a nice balance there. Personally, I don't mind using most of the potentiometers range.



It’s the same with Studio Six. Just 1 watt output but the overbuild output transformer is good for 20 watts. 

I too find I have to crank up the volume on Studio Six a lot more but on both amps, with headphones, 10 o’clock is loud.

I’m keeping Oblivion and Studio Six, the latter is where the bass stands out. Good contrast between the 2 amps.


----------



## UntilThen

The new setup.


----------



## SonicTrance

Nice! Oblivion on the top shelf


----------



## MrCurwen

There's been some talk here about tube choice for these UltraSonic amps. This thread isn't about tube theory, but I think it might be interesting for people interested in these amps to talk a little bit about how and why tubes are chosen for a specific job.

Now me personally I've tried out a bunch of tubes for these circuits, including 1626, 6V6GT, 71A, 47, 2C22 (output), 6SN7 (output), 6E5P, EL84, EL81, EL41, 6P31, 4P1L, 3C24, 6L6, 6N16P, 8025A, 8012A, 6BQ6, ECL82, 6S45P and some I've forgotten by now. My current everyday amp runs 6E5P finals.

First since not everyone is a DIY guy (you don't have to be to understand this tube selection thing), let's in short go thru the basics.

Aside from "trying out different tubes" how can one know in advance what tube type will sound best in a specific circuit?

Well, what is "best sound"? That's a whole discussion in itself. For the sake of brevity, best sound is lowest possible distortion in an open loop system (Sonic's amps do not employ gNFB at all). I would venture to say if one is specifically fond of coloured sound, perhaps one should look for SE amps with traditional series feed OT to suit their tastes.

How is minimum distortion achieved? Here we come to load lines. Curves and load lines are the heart and soul of any tube system. They tell you so much about the tube and it's operation in a specific circuit I cannot even begin to explain it in full here. The basics are very simple though.

Let's draw a load line. Now in an old fashioned amp, which utilizes the output transformer primary coil as the load for the output tube (primary is in series with the tube), the load is something between 1k to 10k, usually let's say 5k. There were old time rules of thumb for "good results", for example the 3x rule, OT primary impedance should be 3x the output tube anode resistance for "best results" i.e. an acceptable compromise between output power and amount of distortion generated. If you increase OT primary impedance, you lessen output power and also lessen distortion, and vice versa.

Now let's pick a tube everybody is familiar with, the 6V6. To draw a load line for 5k primary load, you take your B+, let's say 300V, and divide it by 5000. Ohm's law says the result is in amperes, converted to mA it's 60mA.

Now look at the curves. The right side endpoint of the load line is 300V / 0mA and the left side endpoint is 0V / 60mA:


 

All possible op points are on this red line. Op point or operation point is the static condition, the rest condition where the output tube is biased.

The curves denote grid voltage. The control grid is the 'input' of the tube. This is where the input signal is applied. Each curve has a grid voltage attached to it on the top.

Which point should you choose? Now some people like to just try things out and try to find by luck or accident a good sounding op point. That is just shooting in the dark blindfolded and with no ammo.

The 'point' of an op point is that once signal is applied, there is sufficient amount of headroom on BOTH SIDES of the load line (looking out from the op point).

Let's say we chose grid bias point at -25V. So that's the op point now, the resting starting position. Now apply a signal to the grid.

Voltage at grid starts going up, we move left on the load line. Plenty of room to go around.

Now the sine wave reaches it top, and starts going down. Grid voltage goes down, down, past the op point, then what.

There is only a tiny amount of room left to go on the right side of the load line.

Now a sine wave has equal amounts of positive and negative peak to it. If we select this op point, the tube is unlikely to be able to reproduce the sine wave even close to original.

So logically, one should choose an op point that is rightabouts halfway on the load line.

So, about -10V. This is not an uncommon op point for a 6V6 amp running at 300V B+.

Now let's also draw the biggest possible input signal swing to the load line. This is the hard clipping point for the amp, since the grid cannot go positive unless specifically driven by a certain kind of circuit (which was not available / used in traditional circuits). Sonic's amps can drive output tube grids well into the positive part, but we're not there yet.

 

Now with this load (5k) and chosen bias point (27mA bias current at -10V grid), with the grid going between 0V and -20V, we have the anode voltage varying from 110 to 230 V, at op point it's about 175V.

What does this mean? Well, for one, we have amplification, 20V input signal produces about 120V output signal for a gain of 6. But with regards to signal distortion?

The blue part is the positive input signal portion, the green part the negative. You can easily see with your eyes, that they are not of equal lenght, meaning the equal variance in input signal does not produce equal variance in output signal.

The output signal waveform doesn't look exactly like the input signal waveform. This is distortion.

Now it's mostly second harmonic and third harmonic, but we won't go into that here. We'll stay on the level of avoiding distortion alltogether.

Now you can also see, that if you chose the op point to be any more on the right, the distortion would be significantly higher, because the grid lines start to bunch up closer together on the right.

Similarly, if you chose the op point more on the left, your maximum available anode voltage swing would be lower. So with the design limitations (5k load) you have, you are now at the optimum place for distortion and output power.

But since we are not limited by having to use a 5k load, or the 6V6 tube, what would be the ultimate tube and load line that would produce NO DISTORTION AT ALL? (This is hyperbole, there is always some distortion. But in comparison to the presented example.)


Well, for one, you would want a tube that has curves that are equally spaced apart. Not like those right side curves on that 6V6 load line.

Second, you can see that the curves always tend to have a different slope on different 'heights' (on the Y axis). So closer to bottom they are more level, and closer to top they are more steep.

So, the load line should stay within the same vertical region. The logical ultimate load line is thus horizontal or close to it.

So in summary:

1. Curves should be as evenly spaced in the voltage swing area you plan to utilize as possible

2. The load line should go thru only one "vertical section" of the curves, so as close to horizontal as possible

3. The op point should be about halfway point between B+ and 0V gridcurve.

These are the ingredients that produce maximum fidelity, transparency and liveliness to a tube circuit.


----------



## MrCurwen

So now that the basics of tube load lines and operations are clear, let's directly compare two types; the 6V6 and EL36. Both are beam tetrodes, but we used them in triode mode.

So here are the curves, first the 6V6:

 

then the EL36:



Now different ways of drawing and presenting the curves can sometimes trick your eyes even if you're quite familiar with looking at curves. So it's best to draw the load lines and simply check the voltage swings. 

So first, let's look at the 6V6 with a B+ of 300V and using a horizontal 500k impedance load line at 18mA bias current:

 

So op point is at 150V, the positive swing anode voltage is at about 55V and negative swing 235V. 

So left side swings 95V while right side swings 85V. Is this 'good' or 'bad'? Depends. It's clearly much superior to the slanted old fashioned load line presented in the previous message. 

Now let's look at the EL36:

 

Op point is again about 150V, grid at -26V. Positive swing goes to about 15V and negative swing to 285V.

So both sides swing 135V. Notice that in addition to being symmetric, the overall swing is considerably more. This is because the tubes 6V6 and EL36 have different anode resistances. The lower the anode resistance, the closer to 0V anode voltage you can get, so the larger the swing.

Now graphic solutions are always subject to accuracy problems, I wasn't super careful with the pixels here. If you look closely op point is not 150V exactly, it's something like 153V. 0V grid line is at 13V or so in reality.

So it is not 100.00% perfectly symmetrical, but it is several magnitudes more symmetrical than the 6V6 example. In technical solutions you are left to find the best solution, never the perfect solution.

If we were to do a serious comparison, we would look at both tubes swinging the same amount of anode voltage. In this comparison the EL36 would beat the 6V6 much more clearly.


So now using these simple tools anybody can find a nice tube to use to get the best possible (lowest possible distortion) results. Just look for a tube with a decently low internal resistance (Ra or plate resistance) and curves that are nice and evenly spaced.

No need to try the tube out first, this method produces the factual outcome when using this particular circuit. If the swings are more symmetrical on tube B than tube A, then tube B will always sound more transparent and more musical and lively in this circuit. Guaranteed.


----------



## MrCurwen

6L6 and eqs were mentioned in this thread. So let us look at how the 6L6 would do in triode mode and utilizing the best possible load line:

 

So op point is about 160V / 15mA, (the 3mA difference is not important, the curves don't change that fast while going a little up or down in current).

Positive side swing is 120V, negative side swing is 100V. So it will not perform even close to as good as EL36 and eqs.


----------



## baronbeehive

MrCurwen said:


> No need to try the tube out first, this method produces the factual outcome when using this particular circuit. If the swings are more symmetrical on tube B than tube A, then tube B will always sound more transparent and more musical and lively in this circuit. Guaranteed.



Besides being more symmetrical, I believe I'm right in saying that the more the anode voltage swing the livelier the sound? Which means the EL36 is the livelier sounding, as well as being the more transparent and less distorted tube, at least for that operating point?


----------



## baronbeehive

MrCurwen said:


> Aside from "trying out different tubes" how can one know in advance what tube type will sound best in a specific circuit?



That would have saved me a lot of work in the Little Dot Supermod thread!


----------



## baronbeehive

MrCurwen said:


> Now let's also draw the biggest possible input signal swing to the load line. This is the hard clipping point for the amp, since the grid cannot go positive unless specifically driven by a certain kind of circuit (which was not available / used in traditional circuits). Sonic's amps can drive output tube grids well into the positive part, but we're not there yet.



So what exactly is it that can drive the amp into the positive grid area, I'm guessing it is something to do with the gyrators, or the use of the OT... or something special in the hybrid design of the amp?


----------



## MrCurwen

baronbeehive said:


> Besides being more symmetrical, I believe I'm right in saying that the more the anode voltage swing the livelier the sound? Which means the EL36 is the livelier sounding, as well as being the more transparent and less distorted tube, at least for that operating point?



More voltage swing makes the sound livelier in the sense that it makes it louder, and louder sound is more engaging. 

What I was after when writing that was simply lower distortion. Distortion masks details in the reproduced sound; lack of this masking makes the sound livelier.

Simply saying "lower distortion" over and over again doesn't often send the desired message of how much it really matters. This is of course because of the gNFB low distortion amps, which usually do not sound very lively or realistic. Sonic's amps are open loop AND low distortion. That's another animal in itself.



baronbeehive said:


> That would have saved me a lot of work in the Little Dot Supermod thread!



Yep. Always do your homework, you'll save effort in the long run.



baronbeehive said:


> So what exactly is it that can drive the amp into the positive grid area, I'm guessing it is something to do with the gyrators, or the use of the OT... or something special in the hybrid design of the amp?



Hint is in the 6L6 and 6V6 curves. It's the ability to provide current to the grid, so the grid drivers.

The curves have extra curve lines marked with + voltages. They denote current that the grid eats when the grid is at a specific voltage. You can see it's quite much for extreme positive grid conditions. It's quite much for even +1V or, in fact, for the 0V grid line itself!

Tubelab George is the progenitor of this grid driver technology, incredibly knowledgeable about tubes and especially this grid current phenomenom. Most tubes eat grid current to some extent even while the grid is still negative. This is in part due to different parasitic capacitances inside the tube, between the different elements.

Old time radio transmitters used a tube cathode follower to drive the transmitter final tube, to provide current for the control grid on big pulses.

The grid drivers are simply FETs operating as source followers (FET version of cathode follower). So they just 'follow' the voltage, do not do anything to it, and provide current as needed.

Sonic's amps are able to drive the output tube grid well into positive territory. This in part provides towards the first class transient response. 

The gyrators are basically as well source followers.


----------



## MrCurwen

Well the EL36 and eq don't really have room for positive grid operations, maybe a volt or two, but grid current is a real thing in low negative grid region already, as well as thruout the whole range to some extent.

The control grid is located very close to the cathode in comparison to the anode (or g2 in a triode strapped beam tetrode). It is physically near the electron cloud that just hangs around the space close to the cathode.

Cathode is heated, electrons boil off and form a cloud, anode positive voltage starts to draw them towards the anode.

Now what happens when grid is positive? Then the grid is the LOCAL anode, it's easier to get to than the far far away anode. So the electrons go to the grid. After that they have to go SOMEWHERE, and if there is nowhere to go, they stay at the grid. What does that mean? That means the voltage potential of the grid changes, and NOT BY THE AUDIO SIGNAL. That's distortion.

So the grid system must have ways of getting rid of the electrons that get lost there. That's what the grid driver system does. It sinks the current neatly away. (Remember current is holes, I'm mixing actual physical electrons and hole here but I hope you follow.)


----------



## baronbeehive

MrCurwen said:


> More voltage swing makes the sound livelier in the sense that it makes it louder, and louder sound is more engaging.



Yes, reviewers should be very careful to control the volume when doing comparisons to avoid spurious results.


----------



## SonicTrance

A lot of tech talk, which is nice but I thought I'd spice things up with some pics! 
This Oblivion is just complete. Burning in now.





 

Next I'll build @joseph69 Citadel. The chassis is supposed to be delivered next week.


----------



## UntilThen

2 knobs?


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> 2 knobs?


Yes, it's just a selector switch for speaker/headphones on this one. No impedance switch.


----------



## UntilThen

I have been listening to music with hd800 and Oblivion these last 3 weeks because my Verite is with my son.

The level of details and clarity is outstanding. I’m not sure about HEDDphone and Oblivion - it could be more details than you can handle.


----------



## MrCurwen

Try watching a well mixed horror movie with Sonic's amp and headphones. It's a unique experience.


----------



## UntilThen

Dracula might sound too real. So instead I’m listening to Bob Dylan sing Knocking on Heaven’s Door.

Guess what... that’s the best rendition of the song.


----------



## leftside

I guess the Oblivion doesn't sound as dark as this Oblivion


----------



## baronbeehive

MrCurwen said:


> Try watching a well mixed horror movie with Sonic's amp and headphones. It's a unique experience.



Not sure I want to... Zombies... aaghhh, thanks anyway! But here's another horror story, it has just dawned on me why your horizontal load lines look odd. Surely the 2 points to draw it from are from 0 V (18mA) which is the max desired bias current through the tube with the 500k load, and 0 I at B+ (300V). In which case the load line cannot be horizontal... devilish laughter.. ha.. ha.. ha...

Nice pics Sonic!


----------



## MrCurwen

The load in question is an active load, it not just resistive. So it can actively keep delivering current (the 18mA) even as Va approaches B+. 

So it is drawn just as I did. That is also how it behaves in reality.

A passive component, be it a real resistor or a coil that is assumed / approximated as a resistive load, cannot do that.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> I guess the Oblivion doesn't sound as dark as this Oblivion




I’ll try that when the broadband connection comes on. One moment bush fires, another day hail and thunderstorms, the weather here can be a challenge.

Fortunately I also have a hard drive of songs.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I’ll try that when the broadband connection comes on. One moment bush fires, another day hail and thunderstorms, the weather here can be a challenge.



The fires there are a daily news item here, god knows what it's like there, record temperatures and such like. We seem to be having floods a lot more here, rain almost daily since autumn. I don't suppose that's what you want to hear though.

Maybe things will change for the better soon. There was a news item yesterday that in parts that have been devastated by the fires new green shoots are appearing!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Next I'll build @joseph69 Citadel. The chassis is supposed to be delivered next week.



Share pictures of the build along the way.


----------



## wasupdog

I have a system which is on the cool sounding side but I wouldn’t say it’s bright or warm.  Tidal is streaming from my MacBook Pro into a Gumby A2 and a Citadel.  It can veer towards bright or warm depending on the recording.  The Citadel will give some kicking bass if it exists in the recording but it doesn’t exaggerate what’s not there.

The Citadel is on par with other near TOTL amps I’ve owned.  There’s some give or take on all of them but if you’re looking at a specialty amp like this you probably have some idea of what you like and what sound you’re looking for.  

My preference isn’t for tube amps in particular but if I was running one as my main rig it would be this one.  You have all of the quickness, punch and speed of solid state amps but there’s some lushness to the sound to remind you there are tubes in the chain.  It’s the best of both worlds implemented into a tube hybrid.  I’m not detecting any perceivable loss at the frequency extremes which is my pet peeve with tube amps. 

Denon AD-D9200
This is a great pairing although the headphones on their own are really good.  This is one of the headphones out there that are tonally correct out of the box with no major spikes or dips throughout the range.  Verum One is another.  The tubes are a great in combination with the cellulose drivers.  If I was demoing this blind I might believe it if you told me this was an open back planar.

The 9200 scale appropriately and are improved in all areas.  Punchy sound.  Imaging is impressive the way the Citadel improves transient sounds in space on the 9200.  The 9200 is not quite pin prick the way Utopias can throw up tactile imaging but now it’s close without the treble spike. 

I ran these on low impedance and can barely hear some low tube noise with no sound playing.  The 9200 are quite sensitive, as in you can run them straight off of an iPhone and still sound good sensitive. 

Abyss Phi CC
Excellent separation, soundstage and texture.  It’s like you’re taking what Abyss already does well and adding on top of it.  This is where sound starts to get real.  On acoustic guitars you can hear the pick scratching against the strings.  High transparency into the recording.

This pairing has a holographic sound that I only recall hearing before on setups like the Orpheus demo and WA-33/WA-33 Elite with Abyss Phi and Susvara demo.

The Citadel doesn’t break a sweat running this on low impedance mode but the Phi are more sensitive than the OG.  Remember that the Citadel has more power than the Oblivion.

Cayin HA-300
This one has the classic 300B tube sound that imparts a big glowing sound to everything you listen to.  As appealing and romantic as it is I don’t crave this sound for my main rig and find the Citadel superior in technicalities.  Soundstage on the Citadel is more correct.  The HA-300 is more ball shaped.  A great amp with dynamic driver phones if you want the 300B sound.

XI Audio Formula S
I really like this amp and I don’t know of any other headphone amps that use an r-core transformer.  Light, fast and airy sounding.  The Citadel retains the speed of the Formula S but with a smoother feel on top.  The harder feel I would characterize on solid state amps in general.  I don’t think the sound signatures are quite the same but I suppose they could be similar if you took the Formula S and inserted a tube stage in the front end.

More to come later once I have more time and figure out the cable situation with some of my other headphones.  My only regret with the amp is that I should have had Tomas build this with a 1/4” headphone jack on the side!


----------



## wasupdog

Pics or it didn't happen!


----------



## SonicTrance

wasupdog said:


> The Citadel is on par with other near TOTL amps I’ve owned.


Thanks for the impressions! I'm very glad you like it!
I'm wondering if you use the RCA or XLR inputs? Citadel will sound cleaner with XLR inputs and also have more gain! Something to experiment with.


----------



## UntilThen

Even though the sonic differences between Citadel and Oblivion are described on the website, I wonder how immediately noticeable they are with the 2 amps side by side for a comparison. It does seem that both still have that tube tone but with varying degrees.

There will be many who will like this sound signature because it's a high fidelity sound. I know I do. When you go to a HiFi Show, high fidelity sound is what you expect to hear. I'm not particularly fond of a setup with over emphasised bass. The bass on Oblivion isn't light either. It's in the right proposition. There are times with certain songs, I marvel at the bass dished out from the HD800, a headphone that is not noted for it's bass. With a high quality recording of a song, it is immensely enjoyable. With these amps, you would want to try as many headphones as possible. I agree with the addition of the 1/4 inch headphone out together with the xlr balanced out, it would have been more convenient. 

Back in Sydney for the 3 days long weekend for Australia Day, I am missing my main headphone rig even though I have my stereo here.


----------



## UntilThen

My picture on the following link is gathering more and more likes. They must be wondering what is that amp on the top of the rack. Looks like Starship Enterprise. 

     Post #24717


----------



## joseph69

Does anyone own either the Oblivion or Citadel as well as the GS-X mk2?
If so, do they share a good amount of similarities? I'm asking because I find more than a few some impressions reminding me of my GS-X mk2.


----------



## cskippy

I don't see the connection between Oblivion and GSX mk2.  Maybe speed and technicalities but treble on GSX mk2 has an etched grating quality to it where there is said to be just beautiful smooth treble on Oblivion.  They might share a general neutral to bright trend in sound although I bet GSX mk2 is brighter.


----------



## joseph69

cskippy said:


> I don't see the connection between Oblivion and GSX mk2. * Maybe speed and technicalities* but treble on GSX mk2 has an etched grating quality to it where there is said to be just beautiful smooth treble on Oblivion.  although I bet GSX mk2 is*They might share a general neutral to bright trend in sound* *brighter.*


The similarities you've mentioned above are what I'm referring too. As for the treble, this is dependent on your headphones and upstream gear.


----------



## MrCurwen

wasupdog said:


> The Citadel retains the speed of the Formula S but with a smoother feel on top. The harder feel I would characterize on solid state amps in general. I don’t think the sound signatures are quite the same but I suppose they could be similar if you took the Formula S and inserted a tube stage in the front end.



Before I give my comments I'd like to take an opportunity to thank everybody who has made reviews or even just some comments on their listening experiences, it is very interesting for me to read personally, and everybody has been very good with their words and descriptions. So thank you for making reviews and comments.

As to my response to the quote above, I would say no. The reason is that the harder feel is produced by a high use of gNFB. This produces low distortion, but at certain costs. I won't go into more detail here, but it is directly linked.

Now if you add a tube in front of this circuit, you don't remove that gNFB loop after it, so you don't remove the feel it produces. 

The only way to change that feel is to not use gNFB at all. This opens up a world of new problems for the designer, presented with the scenario I personally made the choises I made.

But in conclusion it's not about what you add, but what tool you have used to achieve your goal. In the amp you describe the designer used gNFB and SS devices in amplification roles to achieve his goal of audio amplification, with all the upsides and downsides those come with.



joseph69 said:


> Does anyone own either the Oblivion or Citadel as well as the GS-X mk2?
> If so, do they share a good amount of similarities? I'm asking because I find more than a few some impressions reminding me of my GS-X mk2.



I google pic searched the insides of the GS-X mk2. Looking at that I'd say that amp does not share anything with Sonic's amps besides functioning as a driver for headphones, general purpose of circuit. Nothing else.



cskippy said:


> I don't see the connection between Oblivion and GSX mk2. Maybe speed and technicalities but treble on GSX mk2 has an etched grating quality to it where there is said to be just beautiful smooth treble on Oblivion. They might share a general neutral to bright trend in sound although I bet GSX mk2 is brighter.



Yes that etched grating quality is caused, again, by high use of gNFB. Only way to avoid that signature is to design open loop, not use gNFB at all.


----------



## wasupdog

That’s really interesting about gNFB and I had no idea.  It makes sense because of the recent trend associating amplifiers with low distortion measurements with good sound quality, however inaudible the distortion may have been in the first place.  For the THX amps they sound clean but more like flat response studio monitors. 

I think I was struggling to put the sound of the Citadel into words because it is relatively neutral.  It amplifies the signal, lays out the soundstage, puts out what the recording has on offer and then paints it over with a pleasing tube sound that is not overdone.

I’m also interested in revisiting the HD800S at some point.  The best I heard it was with the Cayin HA-300 which took it to another level and the headphones did benefit from the richness of that amp.  On that combo the bass was not lacking at all but I was using Sonarworks with +1 on the bass boost.


----------



## Phantaminum

Really, the Oblivion has a forgiving top end that’s in between a tube amp and and solid state. It’s not etched and not bright but has great extension. It’s good for bright headphones but will not cover up badly recorded tracks like some tube amps.


----------



## baronbeehive

MrCurwen said:


> Tubelab George is the progenitor of this grid driver technology, incredibly knowledgeable about tubes and especially this grid current phenomenom. Most tubes eat grid current to some extent even while the grid is still negative. This is in part due to different parasitic capacitances inside the tube, between the different elements.
> 
> Old time radio transmitters used a tube cathode follower to drive the transmitter final tube, to provide current for the control grid on big pulses.
> 
> The grid drivers are simply FETs operating as source followers (FET version of cathode follower). So they just 'follow' the voltage, do not do anything to it, and provide current as needed.



When did someone first hit on the idea to use FET's as source followers instead of tube cathode followers


----------



## baronbeehive

MrCurwen said:


> Simply saying "lower distortion" over and over again doesn't often send the desired message of how much it really matters. This is of course because of the gNFB low distortion amps, which usually do not sound very lively or realistic. Sonic's amps are open loop AND low distortion. That's another animal in itself.



FET grid drivers and the open loop are 2 important distinguishing features of this amp's hybrid design.

To get open loops AND low distortion is the clever part, as is no gNFB AND low output impedance.

So the fast transient speed of the amp mentioned in the reviews can be explained by reference to these design features, and also the open accurate soundstage which has also been mentioned. In rejecting the traditional way of achieving low distortion and low impedance by the use of gNFB feedback loops the amp manages to achieve that real, live sound that has also been mentioned which could not have been achieved had gNFB been used because of the extra loop that the signal must travel, which inevitably has a negative impact on sound as in SS amps.

Some of these design features go to explain why the amp could not be driven to distort as Maxx found in his review.


----------



## MrCurwen

This thread is about Sonic's products and not general theory, but some of this might be very interesting to his customers and potential customers. If somebody is interested you can start a new thread (please link it to me in a private message) or just ask me in a private message. I'm happy to elaborate.



baronbeehive said:


> When did someone first hit on the idea to use FET's as source followers instead of tube cathode followers



Same afternoon as the first FET was made. Now in terms of putting FETs into "classic audio circuits", that would be the DIYAudio guys back when the forum was just new. The general idea is nothing new, the specific applications (what spot to use it in, and for what purpose) is the point.

Grid drivers were pioneered and popularized by Tubelab George (again, what a nice and knowledgeable person, truely a great person in the DIY scene), the gyrator plate loads by Wavebourne (same goes for him, a true legend in the scene by now).

I put these elements together in a balanced format, and made the output a parafeed type. Thus far parafeed was seen as an SE only thing, and output section gyrator loads were out of the question.

Also the idea of combining gyrator plate loads and CCS tails was out of the question for a long time. I had many a 10 page long arguments on this subject, people thought the whole thing wouldn't even produce audio output!

Spoiler, it does. And if you look at the theory behind, it obviously should work. But that subject is too large for this thread.



baronbeehive said:


> FET grid drivers and the open loop are 2 important distinguishing features of this amp's hybrid design.



If I had to say the most important, it would be open loop. The rest of the choices kind of flow from that point forward. The grid drive is very important, yes, forcing the balance is maybe more important and the horizontal load lines. These assure linearity despite no gNFB.



baronbeehive said:


> To get open loops AND low distortion is the clever part, as is no gNFB AND low output impedance.



Yes. Low output impedance comes from driving the OT primary (remember the OT is an "impedance lens") from a relatively low, few tens of ohms of impedance: the plate load gyrators!

The OT primary 'sees' two source followers driving it. That's a good spot to be in, you've got all the current you can eat right there.



baronbeehive said:


> So the fast transient speed of the amp mentioned in the reviews can be explained by reference to these design features, and also the open accurate soundstage which has also been mentioned. In rejecting the traditional way of achieving low distortion and low impedance by the use of gNFB feedback loops the amp manages to achieve that real, live sound that has also been mentioned which could not have been achieved had gNFB been used because of the extra loop that the signal must travel, which inevitably has a negative impact on sound as in SS amps.



Yes.

The gNFB loop lowers overall distortion to very very low numbers, but it changes the harmonics distributions. Distortion is made up of harmonics, they are multiples of the original signal. Say you input a 1kHz signal, then the amp adds some 2 kHz (this is 2H distortion), some 3kHz (this is 3H distortion) and so on.

8H and 9H are very very unnatural, these are ones that cause the sound to be "hard" or "bleak" or just unrealistic sounding. Get these OUT of the harmonic spectrum, and you get lively sound. 

High order harmonics come in as a part of the gNFB tradeoff; the tradeoff is "lower THD" traded to "but tiny amounts of 7H, 8H and 9H appear". This is the "SS sound". It's caused by gNFB, not by the FETs or transistors in themselves.



baronbeehive said:


> Some of these design features go to explain why the amp could not be driven to distort as Maxx found in his review.



The amp does hard clip, oh yes. But not that easily with headphones at least.


----------



## baronbeehive

Thanks.

I do find the theory as it relates to this amp fascinating, especially as it is at a pivotal point in the development between the old style traditional designs and the new modern hybrid designs.


----------



## UntilThen

You have 2 days left to get this incredible sounding amp before the price increase. The best I've heard Verite in. The same goes for HD800.

I've my eyes on a Citadel before the year is out.


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## OctavianH (Jan 31, 2020)

These are built and shipped in/from Finland?


----------



## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> These are built and shipped in/from Finland?


Built and shipped from Sweden =)


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## mordy

SonicTrance said:


> Built and shipped from Sweden =)


Is the designer of the original circuitry from Finland?


----------



## SonicTrance

mordy said:


> Is the designer of the original circuitry from Finland?


Yes, @MrCurwen is from Finland.


----------



## UntilThen

It's been more than a month with Oblivion. Today is 1st Feb 2020. I wrote the review on 1st Jan 2020. 

I've been using Oblivion everyday since I had it. Studio Six hardly have any air time. I spend about 3 weeks with HD800 on it and thoroughly love it. Then I swap headphone with my son and got Verite Open back and love it even more. Those beryllium drivers open up like never before. 

I have my Redgum Rgi120enr black series 265w 4 ohms amp here powering my Axis Voicebox S speakers but for near field listening I really like Oblivion driving the Voicebox. Volume at 2pm and the image is startling !!!

Here's the Axis Voicebox S speakers winning the award.
 

The Redgum
 

Here's my Oblivion driving it. Doing an A/B with the Redgum. I'll leave the Oblivion hook up to the speakers because it's a revelation. 
 

Strangely with speakers, there's not much noticeable difference between low and high impedance. If anything, I detect that low impedance works better so I left it at low.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Strangely with speakers, there's not much noticeable difference between low and high impedance. If anything, I detect that low impedance works better so I left it at low.


The impedance switch only affects the headphone output. The speaker output is low impedance =)


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> The impedance switch only affects the headphone output. The speaker output is low impedance =)



Ah that explains why there's not much noticeable difference using it with speakers.   At least my hearing is still logical.


----------



## UntilThen

I've been using Schiit Wyrd with Yggdrasil because I'm not going to spend another cent upgrading Yggy but I bought a Schiit Eitr for cheap recently .... like AUD150 because no one wants it now. Now this does make a difference to the sound and it's noticeable.


----------



## UntilThen

I want to go fully balanced with Citadel because my new found fan wants to buy my Oblivion. I say 'not so fast hosey'. Let me enjoy Oblivion for at least 6 months !


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Built and shipped from Sweden =)



You must consider shipping this magnetic badge with your amp.


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## mordy

UntilThen said:


> You must consider shipping this magnetic badge with your amp.


Maybe this as well:


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Maybe this as well



That and a badge for each country that the amp is shipped to.


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## UntilThen

I can't believe I spend 3 hours listening to music with this combo. The last hour is with speakers. One more pic before I go and see if the bush fire is at the door.


----------



## OctavianH

SonicTrance said:


> Built and shipped from Sweden =)



Great, I like Sweden. Well, when you'll build an amp for KT88/77/66 with some tube rolling possibilities I will make myself a present. I'll test it with this song:


----------



## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> Great, I like Sweden. Well, when you'll build an amp for KT88/77/66 with some tube rolling possibilities I will make myself a present. I'll test it with this song:


You can view my amps as detox for the tube rolling addict! Come here when you're ready to kick that addiction!  It worked for me =)


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## OctavianH

SonicTrance said:


> You can view my amps as detox for the tube rolling addict! Come here when you're ready to kick that addiction!  It worked for me =)



Detox is good and will make me rich when I'll sell my tube collection. The only problem is that, until I sell it, I have to find the sonic signature I want, and to do that I'll need to roll some stuff. I do not quite like the "standard" sound everyone searches.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Detox is good and will make me rich when I'll sell my tube collection. The only problem is that, until I sell it, I have to find the sonic signature I want, and to do that I'll need to roll some stuff. I do not quite like the "standard" sound everyone searches.



I use to depend on tubes heavily. I lost count of how much I spend on good NOS tubes. Now I haven't bought a single tube for 3 months. There are so many other ways to tune your system other than with tubes. DAC and headphones / speakers will tailor your sound more than with tubes. I have not miss rolling tubes. If I do need another sound signature, I can swap headphone amps but I hardly use Studio Six now because Oblivion sound more airy, spacious and the details are intoxicating. 

I doubt anyone will have my 'standard' sound because my Axis Voicebox S is a niche product. There are 2 other pairs of bookshelf speakers I can swap. As for headphone, I'm rather content with Verite. Besides I find myself transitioning to speakers. 

I'm rather tempted by some bookshelf speakers at bargain price but I don't want to buy and hoard speakers like I do with tubes. Here are some examples in the classifieds. 

https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/300964-fs-acoustic-energy-ae301-bookshelf-speakers/

https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/300965-fs-infinity-reference-162-bookshelf-speakers/

https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/300963-fs-elac-debut-20-b52-bookshelf-speakers/

https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/301024-fs-usher-s-520-speakers-piano-black/

and NAD M51 that is screaming 'buy me' ! I had this DAC before but sold it but it's very good especially at that price. https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/301075-fs-nad-m51-dac/

So yeah I'm wean of tubes now.


----------



## MrCurwen

OctavianH said:


> Detox is good and will make me rich when I'll sell my tube collection. The only problem is that, until I sell it, I have to find the sonic signature I want, and to do that I'll need to roll some stuff.



There is a certain logic in this statement, it's true. But let me propose something else to consider: why not stop the search for the signature YOU want, and instead opt for maximum transparency and then enjoy the sonic signatures the ARTISTS wanted you to hear?

Transparency, i.e. allowing the liveliness of the original signal to simply come thru UNALTERED is the ultimate tone of them all. Then all you need is music and artists you enjoy, which is in my opinion more fun to try and find than finding the tube you like in a certain specific circuit.

Opinions may vary of course.



> I do not quite like the "standard" sound everyone searches.



Oh boy, you are IN LUCK my friend! EL36 and especially it's Russian equivivalents which Sonic uses in his products are definitely completely outside the mainstream no matter how you look at it. Totally out there.


----------



## UntilThen

MrCurwen said:


> There is a certain logic in this statement, it's true. But let me propose something else to consider: why not stop the search for the signature YOU want, and instead opt for maximum transparency and then enjoy the sonic signatures the ARTISTS wanted you to hear?
> 
> Transparency, i.e. allowing the liveliness of the original signal to simply come thru UNALTERED is the ultimate tone of them all. Then all you need is music and artists you enjoy, which is in my opinion more fun to try and find than finding the tube you like in a certain specific circuit.



This is the best answer. This is what we should strive for and Oblivion has provided that for me. No wonder I'm so hooked on exploring music now despite having no tubes to roll.


----------



## nishan99

There is a DAC (for god know why!) that outputs 3V for RCA and 6V for XLR. 
is it compatible with your amps inputs?


----------



## OctavianH

MrCurwen said:


> There is a certain logic in this statement, it's true. But let me propose something else to consider: why not stop the search for the signature YOU want, and instead opt for maximum transparency and then enjoy the sonic signatures the ARTISTS wanted you to hear?
> 
> Transparency, i.e. allowing the liveliness of the original signal to simply come thru UNALTERED is the ultimate tone of them all. Then all you need is music and artists you enjoy, which is in my opinion more fun to try and find than finding the tube you like in a certain specific circuit.
> 
> Opinions may vary of course.



This is a statement I would definitely agree with, if we would live in a perfect world where all records are perfectly produced, where all musicians would have money and conditions to record everything as they would like and if all musical genres would sound the same on the same setup. But unfortunately, in my case, I prefer to have the option of rolling in order to alter in some way some recordings. I know this is not the most desirable process for purists or electrical designers but for me, it is a nice thing to do. Music is not mathematics, it is art, and our brain might perceive it in different ways depending on mood and other factors.

Anyway, Oblivion and Citadel seem to be solid offerings, and I will think and consider them a possible future upgrade.


----------



## SonicTrance

nishan99 said:


> There is a DAC (for god know why!) that outputs 3V for RCA and 6V for XLR.
> is it compatible with your amps inputs?


Yes, no problem.


----------



## UntilThen

Finally bought my 1st tubes for Oblivion. I better have spares especially after using Oblivion to watch the marathon Australian Open Men's Tennis Final last night.  

Cost me $11 ....


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Cost me $11 ....


Yeah, they are rated for 500mW and I run them at 170mW. They should last a long, long time =)


----------



## UntilThen

I took out the SLR camera and gave this the full blown view.  Oblivion is very much a part of my life now. I watch movies and listen to music with it.


----------



## baronbeehive

Yes, transparency definitely so that you can hear exactly what the artist and engineer intended... BUT... I don't like cold or analytic sound which I find devoid of musicality.

For that reason I like a touch of warmth... whatever that is... tubes or what. All my gear: DAC, Amp, speakers and headphones have just that touch of warmth to add a musical dimension. That's one reason I still like my HE-500s, which are still superb cans. I've always steered away from cans like the HD800, since owning HD600's and not liking them at all. However several members have said how good the Oblivion is with the HD800's, and I imagine that they have toned down that analytical sound and made them a touch livelier, something good amps can do.

So I am interested at some point in trying the Sennheisers because of this and also to try cans with a back row presentation rather than the onstage presentation I get with the HE-500's.

The HD800 and Oblivion sound like a great pairing according to those that have tried it, I believe it would be end game, I don't know what those that have tried it think.


----------



## baronbeehive

Sorry for that s**ty post earlier, it appears that you can no longer copy something into this site from somewhere else without the format going haywire, so I have re-typed it.

Yes, transparency definitely so that you can hear exactly what the artist and engineer intended… UT... I don't like cold or analytic sound which I find devoid of musicality. For that reason I like a touch of warmth... whatever that is... tubes, or what. That's one reason I still like my HE-500's, which are still superb cans for me. 

I've always steered away from cans like the HD800, since owning HD600's and not liking them at all. However several members have said how good the Oblivion is with them, and I imagine they have changed that analytical sound, and made them a touch livelier, something good amps can do. So I am interested at some point in trying the Sennys because of this and also to try them because they have a back row presentation rather than the onstage presentation I get with the HE-500s. 

The HD800 and Oblivion sound like a great pairing to those who have tried it, probably end game. I don't know what those who have tried it think but I would be interested to know.


----------



## baronbeehive

How the ^"**k do you get your post down these days, I give up!


----------



## UntilThen

I don’t think anyone would like cold and analytical sound but hd800 with the right amp can sound really enjoyable. The 3 amps that comes to mind are Glenn OTL amp, Studio Six and Oblivion.

I am quite adaptable though. Though I like how hd800 sound with these amps, I much prefer Verite with these amps.

Lately though I prefer Oblivion driving my Axis Voicebox S speakers. Both Verite and Voicebox S cost US$2500 each. Headphones these days are getting very expensive. You can buy very nice bookshelf speakers for the price of a Susvara.


----------



## baronbeehive (Feb 2, 2020)

See, your post has got messed up as well... or is it me…

Most of mine has ended up off the end of the page, no wordwrap.

Time for bed I think, before I really lose it…


----------



## UntilThen

I see the posts just fine. Paragraph, word wrap, spacing. There’s great details in those text and pictures.  

I think you need Oblivion to get the formatting right haha.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I see the posts just fine. Paragraph, word wrap, spacing. There’s great details in those text and pictures.
> 
> I think you need Oblivion to get the formatting right haha.



Oh really, thanks for that, and sorry for the mess up, I don't know why I don't see it right. I was determined to get down what I wrote a third time but you will be pleased to know that I will spare you the bother!


----------



## baronbeehive (Feb 2, 2020)

Last time... my post cuts off at "pleased to know th"

I don't know what they've done but the website maintenance appears to have introduced a bug.

Weird!


----------



## Khronos

UntilThen said:


> Lately though I prefer Oblivion driving my Axis Voicebox S speakers. Both Verite and Voicebox S cost US$2500 each. Headphones these days are getting very expensive. You can buy very nice bookshelf speakers for the price of a Susvara.




You could buy some endgame speakers for the price of a Susvara (Trio 15 by PureAudioProject).
http://www.pureaudioproject.com/trio15-open-baffle-speakers-pureaudioproject/


----------



## joseph69

baronbeehive said:


> Last time... my post cuts off at "pleased to know th"
> 
> I don't know what they've done but the website maintenance appears to have introduced a bug.
> 
> Weird!


No issues here.


----------



## chrisdrop

baronbeehive said:


> Last time... my post cuts off at "pleased to know th"
> 
> I don't know what they've done but the website maintenance appears to have introduced a bug.
> 
> Weird!


Are you on a mobile ?
Desktop looks fine to me 
Mobile a bit truncated as you say.

To make this post Oblivion related... I had to work quite hard to not order one before Feb 1. It will happen at some point. Enjoy!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Yes, transparency definitely so that you can hear exactly what the artist and engineer intended… UT... I don't like cold or analytic sound which I find devoid of musicality. For that reason I like a touch of warmth... whatever that is... tubes, or what. That's one reason I still like my HE-500's, which are still superb cans for me.



You might want to consider either Verite Open or Verite Close instead of HD800 then. The ZMF headphones opens up with Oblivion. Everyone has their own preference so it's hard to know what suits you. My short listen of a modded HE-500 has been a long time ago at a meet and I cannot really remember how that sound like. Since that time, I've have had Eikon, Atticus, LCD-2f, LCD-3f. I bet those would sound lovely with Oblivion.  

Right now I'm really enjoying Verite Open with Oblivion. Sound so much better than with Studio Six.


----------



## baronbeehive

joseph69 said:


> No issues here.





chrisdrop said:


> Are you on a mobile ?
> Desktop looks fine to me
> Mobile a bit truncated as you say.



Thanks guys, until I've figured out what's happened I will have to preformat my posts...

as a work around, until then there might be a lot of rubbish appearing.. so no change then some of you might say!...

Maybe people will not be too bothered that most of my posts end up off the page lol!

I thought initially that it was because of copying into here from Notepad but it does...

the same keying directly into here.



chrisdrop said:


> To make this post Oblivion related... I had to work quite hard to not order one before Feb 1. It will happen at some point. Enjoy!



Looking forward to hearing the review... when it comes round!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> You might want to consider either Verite Open or Verite Close instead of HD800 then. The ZMF headphones opens up with Oblivion. Everyone has their own preference so it's hard to know what suits you. My short listen of a modded HE-500 has been a long time ago at a meet and I cannot really remember how that sound like. Since that time, I've have had Eikon, Atticus, LCD-2f, LCD-3f. I bet those would sound lovely with Oblivion.
> 
> Right now I'm really enjoying Verite Open with Oblivion. Sound so much better than with Studio Six.



Thanks for the feedback, seems like anything would sound good on Oblivion!


----------



## baronbeehive

Well that came out alright luckily!

I see they've put in the red likes alert at the top of the page so that people can get their dopamine hit, like on Facebook, one reason I don't go on it.


----------



## nishan99

UntilThen said:


> I don’t think anyone would like cold and analytical sound but hd800 with the right amp can sound really enjoyable. The 3 amps that comes to mind are Glenn OTL amp, Studio Six and Oblivion.
> 
> I am quite adaptable though. Though I like how hd800 sound with these amps, I much prefer Verite with these amps.
> 
> Lately though I prefer Oblivion driving my Axis Voicebox S speakers. Both Verite and Voicebox S cost US$2500 each. Headphones these days are getting very expensive. You can buy very nice bookshelf speakers for the price of a Susvara.



Most TOTL bookshelfs are around $5000-7000


----------



## Khronos

nishan99 said:


> Most TOTL bookshelfs are around $5000-7000


Seen them go beyond $15K.


----------



## UntilThen

Which one do you desire?

I just want a Rogers LS3/5A 70th anniversary edition.


----------



## Phantaminum

baronbeehive said:


> Thanks for the feedback, seems like anything would sound good on Oblivion!



Depends on the headphone. I thought the HD650 and Elex would pair up nicely with the Oblivion but instead I enjoy them more out of a $350 SET tube amp. The Fostex TH/TR series surprised me with great synergy as well as the Verum One. My favorite synergy is with the Auteurs. Gives you the speed, clarity, detail, instrument separation, on top of a beautiful tone/timbre.


----------



## baronbeehive

Phantaminum said:


> Depends on the headphone. I thought the HD650 and Elex would pair up nicely with the Oblivion but instead I enjoy them more out of a $350 SET tube amp. The Fostex TH/TR series surprised me with great synergy as well as the Verum One. My favorite synergy is with the Auteurs. Gives you the speed, clarity, detail, instrument separation, on top of a beautiful tone/timbre.



Yeah! That's the thing with the Sennys, they're difficult to predict, I imagined that they would be good with a full tube sound because they do need livening up somewhat. I found that difficult to achieve with my old HD600's.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm spending more and more time listening through speakers now because Oblivion and Axis Voicebox S pairing is just so sweet and clear. Soundstage as you can imagine, is wider than headphones.  

It's dynamic, vibrant and has that zing to it. Bass is tight, fast and has more impact than you thought possible for such a small dimension speakers. Oblivion is ideal for making the Voicebox sound as it should.

I'm looking at a pair of Dynaudio Special 40.


----------



## DecentLevi (Feb 5, 2020)

@UntilThen cool, is the speaker tap on your Oblivion powerful enough to drive those speakers directly? And about those Axis speakers, are those efficient nearfield speakers? I looked them up and it says rated at 100W, so how much is the min. wattage to drive it and how much does the Oblivion put out?

Oh and you mentioned about a future Citadel amp purchase. I've read it has a different (cleaner) sound sig. so I wonder if you may prefer keeping the former and compare first to make sure which signature you like the best.

PS - speaking of "Oblivion", I'm harkened back to a 2007 album from the British electronic music group called Underworld who have been innovating the scene since the late 80's, and their 2007 album called *Oblivion *With Bells.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> is the speaker tap on your Oblivion powerful enough to drive those speakers directly? And about those Axis speakers, are those efficient nearfield speakers? I looked them up and it says rated at 100W, so how much is the min. wattage to drive it and how much does the Oblivion put out?



I wish you're here to listen to it yourself.  Voicebox like most good monitors are very inefficient and demands a powerful amp but in a small room, Oblivion is driving it like a champ. It's direct from Oblivion speaker taps to Voicebox.

You're right, Axis Voicebox S is rated at 100w, 5 ohms, 85db sensitivity which is low. John Reilly the designer of Axis speakers, recommends me the Redgum Rgi120enr (175w) to drive the Voicebox S. That's the amp that I have.

Oblivion is only 2.7w into 4 ohms, 2w into 8 ohms but there's something special about those watts. It's driving the Axis monitors to sonic heights.  

It's in the design. @MrCurwen will explain it.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Oh and you mentioned about a future Citadel amp purchase. I've read it has a different (cleaner) sound sig. so I wonder if you may prefer keeping the former and compare first to make sure which signature you like the best.



I intend to have both Oblivion and Citadel after I get rid of Studio Six. Then I can find out for myself how much alike and unalike those 2 amps are. Sonic told me they are quite close but that Citadel is cleaner with less distortion.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> PS - speaking of "Oblivion", I'm harkened back to a 2007 album from the British electronic music group called Underworld who have been innovating the scene since the late 80's, and their 2007 album called *Oblivion *With Bells.



I'm listening to this now with Oblivion and Axis. It's nice! I like it.


----------



## UntilThen

Just bought this for spares. Quad Siemens EL81 for USD $19.90. I'm starting to appreciate an amp that uses cheap tubes and yet sound so good with headphones and speakers.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> I'm spending more and more time listening through speakers now because Oblivion and Axis Voicebox S pairing is just so sweet and clear. Soundstage as you can imagine, is wider than headphones.
> 
> It's dynamic, vibrant and has that zing to it. Bass is tight, fast and has more impact than you thought possible for such a small dimension speakers. Oblivion is ideal for making the Voicebox sound as it should.
> 
> I'm looking at a pair of Dynaudio Special 40.


I can highly recommend Dynaudio speakers  But they tend to be hard to drive. I was concerned my pair of McIntosh MC75's wouldn't be sufficient, but they are more than sufficient. The Special 40 have a sensitivity of 86dB, which is about the same as my Dynaudio speakers.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> I can highly recommend Dynaudio speakers  But they tend to be hard to drive. I was concerned my pair of McIntosh MC75's wouldn't be sufficient, but they are more than sufficient. The Special 40 have a sensitivity of 86dB, which is about the same as my Dynaudio speakers.



I was going to use Focal 165W-RC Utopia passive 2 ways in my car but it won't fit so I had the installer put in Dynaudio esotec 242gt instead - that's my first brush with Dynaudio.  

My Axis Voicebox is 85 db which is inefficient but Oblivion is driving it.   So I reckon that Oblivion might also drive the Special 40, which uses the famed Esotar tweeters. In any case I can always fall back on the Redgum to drive it.

See how I veered towards stereo listening more now because of Oblivion. However it's 6:30 am now and I'm using Verite with Oblivion..... and I love it. Won't be departing headphones soon. They have their benefits.  

What Dynaudio speakers did you have? I thought you were using B&W 803?


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> I was going to use Focal 165W-RC Utopia passive 2 ways in my car but it won't fit so I had the installer put in Dynaudio esotec 242gt instead - that's my first brush with Dynaudio.
> 
> My Axis Voicebox is 85 db which is inefficient but Oblivion is driving it.   So I reckon that Oblivion might also drive the Special 40, which uses the famed Esotar tweeters. In any case I can always fall back on the Redgum to drive it.
> 
> ...


I have B&W 804S in the living room, and Dynaudio Confidence C1 Platinum in the main music room. Both purchased locally on the used market.


----------



## UntilThen

Ah the Confidence C1. I would like one too.


----------



## DecentLevi (Feb 6, 2020)

OctavianH said:


> Detox is good and will make me rich when I'll sell my tube collection. The only problem is that, until I sell it, I have to find the sonic signature I want, and to do that I'll need to roll some stuff. I do not quite like the "standard" sound everyone searches.



I get what Octavian is saying. He wants to flavor his sound accordingly. Certainly a transparent / true to life sound is most desirable and is no doubt best so you can hear the recording as it was intended. But what if, say, your headphones are on the darker side of linear; or what if the recording is too bright / dark, or if you're in the mood for a more mellow sound signature and EQ just doesn't cut the mustard... that's when tube rolling comes in, to dial in a sound that is different than was intended or to compensate for system synergy that is not reproducing the music through the final headphone as transparently as it's coming out of the amp.

I for one would greatly enjoy a transparent amp, but certainly there's merit to a time when I'm experiencing listening fatigue and want a more mellow sound, if the CD was mastered too dark, etc. and a nice tube swap can change the sound in more ways than EQ'ing alone. I did however read that tube rolling with these amps may not make as great of a difference to the signature? And they are custom designed around specific operating points so the options for compatible tubes may be somewhat limited.  (correct me if I'm wrong?) Don't get me wrong, I would be very happy with a transparent amp and I would like one even without tube rolling options, but also having that option opens up many awesome fine tuning doors as well.

Also @UntilThen that's awesome that your Axel Voicebox as you said, essentially pumps out better performance with your Oblivion amp for nearfield listening even if it's not strictly within spec for the min. current requirements, then your Redgum is on hand strictly for a louder experience. That gives me confidence this amp would be able to drive even studio monitors that are less than efficient also.


----------



## UntilThen

You'll find that as you get deeper into Head-Fi or HiFi, you're less inclined to tube roll. You'll be focused on experimenting with source, dac, turntables, cartridges, phono amps, amps, speakers or headphones, cables, interconnects  

Lynnette Seah is the Co-Concertmaster of the Singapore Symphony Orchestra and for her personal system, she's using my Redgum Rgi120enr amp and a floorstanding version of my Axis Voicebox S. The monitor version is being driven by Oblivion now.  

https://audiorev.net/2016/11/17/lynnette-seah-is-audiorevs-ambassador-for-true-hifi/


----------



## baronbeehive (Feb 6, 2020)

DecentLevi said:


> I get what Octavian is saying. He wants to flavor his sound accordingly. Certainly a transparent / true to life sound is most desirable and is no doubt best so you can hear the recording as it was intended. But what if, say, your headphones are on the darker side of linear; or what if the recording is too bright / dark, or if you're in the mood for a more mellow sound signature and EQ just doesn't cut the mustard... that's when tube rolling comes in, to dial in a sound that is different than was intended or to compensate for system synergy that is not reproducing the music through the final headphone as transparently as it's coming out of the amp.



Yes, I would have to agree, I used to view different tubes as a tone control for my amp. But lately I have settled on a setup for the last few years that won't change anymore. Maybe through luck rather than design, I've got my headphone amp and my speaker amp sounding just right for me fortunately so there's no desire to change anymore. Might be a bit of a compromise but I don't think so, occasionally I get something that doesn't sound quite right but I can put up with it. I do keep a tube in reserve for my speaker amp because I'm hooked on the soft floating treble sound, but rarely use it now.

Tube rolling is fun and people like to try new things of course.. but.. it can be very addictive lol!

That's why I'm keeping watch on this thread to get a handle on what other people are saying about the Oblivion, but for the moment I'm really happy as things are. I'm definitely liking the transparent sound so much the sedays!


----------



## DecentLevi

Yup I also can roll headphones, cables and even amps to choose from, so that's another fine tuning option. Maybe by the time I'm ready to order (sometime down the road) there will also be a 6L6 compatible amp version allowing many types such as KT66, KT77, KT88, EL34, etc. but I would hope to hear how such an amp would compare to the current Citadel / Oblivion though. And what was that that was said about tube rolling for the Ultrasonic amps not affecting the sound as much as with standard tube amps or the like, and being more limited with interchangeable tube types?


----------



## UntilThen

I wrote a detailed post explaining why I no longer believe in an amp with multi tubes usage (because you loose sight of your objective - which is high fidelity music - you'll end up with your joy of rolling gorgeous tubes) but I decided not to post it because it will open up a can of worms and I certainly have no wish to derail this thread.

I'm reminded of what my shrewd technician told me, 'SQ is subjective. I won't tell you whether McIntosh sound better than Audio Note. That's for you to decide.' he declare!


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> And they are custom designed around specific operating points so the options for compatible tubes may be somewhat limited. (correct me if I'm wrong?)


Yes, in the current configuration, for both Oblivion and Citadel you can't use any other tube type than the amp is designed for. The only rolling you can try is different vintages/brands of the same tube types.


----------



## MrCurwen

UntilThen said:


> Oblivion is only 2.7w into 4 ohms, 2w into 8 ohms but there's something special about those watts. It's driving the Axis monitors to sonic heights.
> 
> It's in the design. @MrCurwen will explain it.



I take it these numbers are from measurements from Sonic? He did scale up the design somewhat, so those sound about right. My personal workhorse puts out about 1W and it's more than I'll ever need with speakers. Ears will give out before the amp starts clipping.

Since it was asked, I will super condensed answer this here. The reason is this: transients.

Music signal is such that 99% of the time it is within a pretty small power area, for 'normal' speakers and 'normal' volumes it's around 0.1 and 0.2 W RMS, no matter what amp you use.

Then the rest, let's say 1% of the time, are transients. Now these can range typically from 10x base level to 200x base level.

And there you can see it. If your amp is made in such a way, that THE WHOLE OF THESE TRANSIENTS must be within power delivery capability, you need A LOT of power to deliver that.

That is, if your amp has a gNFB loop, which destabilizes for a long long time if it clips (not just for the duration of the transient, much after that), you cannot have it clip.

If your amp has no such loop, the transient will simply clip, and immediately after the peak resume completely normal operation. Nothing is destabilized.

But what about the transients then? Well, you can read from this thread the listener reports about the transient response of Sonic's amp. It is reported as unparalleled. How can this be if transient peaks are simply clipped out?

This is because human hearing system works in a way that if you are presented with two consecutive transients that are sufficiently high above the baseline, you are almost completely unable to say which transient was higher.

So all transients that are like over 5x baseline, are - according to human sensory system - "very loud". Nothing more discriminating.

Proof is in the pudding. Sonic's amps produce natural sounding sharp transients by sensory reports. Yet electrically they are clipped.



UntilThen said:


> Just bought this for spares. Quad Siemens EL81 for USD $19.90. I'm starting to appreciate an amp that uses cheap tubes and yet sound so good with headphones and speakers.



Tech historian storytime again.

When the internet sales and internet forums age began, ALL TUBES were in the $1 range. Folks had their grandparents attics and basements filled with spare tubes they just wanted to get rid of.

Tubelab George bought a military surplus of a whole warehouse building for a reticulous low dollar amount. Then he began experimenting with sweep tubes and such.

The reason some tubes are expensive now and others not so much is just demand. Some tubes are 'seen' as good, while others have unseen potential. The expensive tubes are not inherently or technically any better than the rest. They just 'seem' that way.

This is good to keep in mind.



UntilThen said:


> My Axis Voicebox is 85 db which is inefficient but Oblivion is driving it.  So I reckon that Oblivion might also drive the Special 40, which uses the famed Esotar tweeters. In any case I can always fall back on the Redgum to drive it.



Now the products Sonic offers at the moment are primarily for headphones, but secondarily for "all purposes". Now if somebody were to really want an only speakers amp of this design, I'm sure Sonic would build one, of course price would be different then that is not for me to comment.

Simply using a much lower ra tube as the output tube, with more current, say a 6S19 or something like that, a reg pass tube, will make this design a "speaker amp". Of course these changes bring additional challenges, mainly heat, but it is doable. Just a thought.

Order one amp for your headphones and one for your speakers!



DecentLevi said:


> But what if, say, your headphones are on the darker side of linear; or what if the recording is too bright / dark, or if you're in the mood for a more mellow sound signature and EQ just doesn't cut the mustard... that's when tube rolling comes in, to dial in a sound that is different than was intended or to compensate for system synergy that is not reproducing the music through the final headphone as transparently as it's coming out of the amp.



I understand this line of thinking. This is 100% the place I was in at the start of my DIY journey, as I was beginning to put my own amps together.

Yet, this line of thinking is not taking into consideration the unique properties of Sonic's amps.

Now without going into a longwinded tech explanation, I will just say that these amps will (in my opinion) lessen the differences between speakers and headphones, not increase them. Let's say you use a trad amp with two sets of headphones, one really dark, one really bright. You take these same headphones and get an amp from Sonic.

Now, the dark headphone will still be darker than the other set, but (much) less so. The brighter set will also be more bassy and balanced. Both will be more transparent as a result. While the end point of the signal chain is always important, it's somewhat less so with these amps, in my opinion. The source signal becomes more important.

Opinions will vary of course.



DecentLevi said:


> I for one would greatly enjoy a transparent amp, but certainly there's merit to a time when I'm experiencing listening fatigue and want a more mellow sound



Listening fatigue is practically eliminated with Sonic's amps. You can ask the owners about this.



DecentLevi said:


> I did however read that tube rolling with these amps may not make as great of a difference to the signature?



In the frequency response department (i.e. "dark sound", "bright sound") tube differences will be exactly 0%. In the linearity & distortion arena, there will be some very very minor differences. The most linear tube will sound the best. Distortion masks things such as spatial information etc. so you will be wanting less of distortion to get max liveliness.



DecentLevi said:


> And they are custom designed around specific operating points so the options for compatible tubes may be somewhat limited. (correct me if I'm wrong?)



Yes as Sonic himself already posted while I was writing this. Fast eat the slow.



DecentLevi said:


> Also @UntilThen that's awesome that your Axel Voicebox as you said, essentially pumps out better performance with your Oblivion amp for nearfield listening even if it's not strictly within spec for the min. current requirements, then your Redgum is on hand strictly for a louder experience. That gives me confidence this amp would be able to drive even studio monitors that are less than efficient also.



Speakers do not have minimum current reqs but I get it you mean power reqs.

Here it is important to understand why this min power req is even mentioned. It is because SS amps drive the speakers directly. There is no output transformer. So, if the output of such an amp clips, even a little bit, there is DC fed to the speaker. This can very easily damage or even destroy the speaker. So, they spec it in such a way, that the signal transients never clip.

Now an OT is physically not possible to feed ANY DC to the speaker that is connected to the secondary. None at all, under any conditions, ever.

Well, if the OT shorts between primary and secondary, then yes, but that would require a pulse of say 5000 volts on the primary.

So, an amp with an OT is not capable of damaging the speakers that way, so for them, there are never any min power specs.



UntilThen said:


> You'll find that as you get deeper into Head-Fi or HiFi, you're less inclined to tube roll.



Indeed. What also helps is understanding the actual physics and tech behind these circuits.



UntilThen said:


> Lynnette Seah is the Co-Concertmaster of the Singapore Symphony Orchestra and for her personal system, she's using my Redgum Rgi120enr amp and a floorstanding version of my Axis Voicebox S. The monitor version is being driven by Oblivion now.



Can you get her to test listen the Oblivion? That would be so interesting.



DecentLevi said:


> Yup I also can roll headphones



Yes. But as said, in my opinion again, that will be less fruitful with these amps than with other amps. But on the plus side ALL OF YOUR HEADPHONES will sound better with these amps. So you'll win no matter what.



DecentLevi said:


> cables



In my opinion as always, that will not produce any sound quality effects at all. Completely out of the picture.



DecentLevi said:


> Maybe by the time I'm ready to order (sometime down the road) there will also be a 6L6 compatible amp version allowing many types such as KT66, KT77, KT88, EL34, etc.



I would really encourage you to order, these products have a very high resale value also. So if you do think after tests that you want that rolling option, you can just sell it to somebody else.

Why 6L6 specifically, if I may ask? Did you read my posts on tube selection? What did you think about them?



DecentLevi said:


> but I would hope to hear how such an amp would compare to the current Citadel / Oblivion though.



A 6L6 based amp of the same design would sound better than most all other amps, but somewhat less spatial information, clarity (separation between voices/instruments) and less fast. So a bit more like a traditional tube amp. More distortion in other words. I've tried it myself.



UntilThen said:


> I wrote a detailed post explaining why I no longer believe in an amp with multi tubes usage (because you loose sight of your objective - which is high fidelity music - you'll end up with your joy of rolling gorgeous tubes) but I decided not to post it because it will open up a can of worms and I certainly have no wish to derail this thread.



I personally don't mind opening the can a little bit every once in a while. Opinions may vary of course.


----------



## UntilThen

MrCurwen said:


> Can you get her to test listen the Oblivion? That would be so interesting.



Haha we're in a different universe. I'm working in Canberra. She's a Concertmaster with the Singapore Symphony Orchestra . If the opportunity presents itself again, I'll get John Reilly (designer of the Axis speakers) to have a listen. Last year, he was in my lounge room, listening to 'Stairways To Heaven' with the Redgum amp driving my Axis LS88 floorstanders.


----------



## UntilThen (Feb 6, 2020)

MrCurwen said:


> Listening fatigue is practically eliminated with Sonic's amps. You can ask the owners about this.



With ZMF Verite and Oblivion, you get all the sparkle and airy tone with a natural timbre. Even the HD800 presents a lively tone but without the glare as attested by another owner. It's been 1.5 months living with Oblivion now, listening almost everyday. If there had been listening fatigue, I would have stopped. Instead I sold off my Glenn OTL amp and now my Studio Six is hardly powered on.


----------



## UntilThen

MrCurwen said:


> Order one amp for your headphones and one for your speakers!



I did speak with Sonic a while ago but I was thinking of a more 'powerful' headphone and speaker amp.  Heavens knows why I would need more power when what Oblivion is dishing up now is sufficient for my needs. If it happens, it will be the later part of this year. I have to take the wife for a holiday in June, just to prove that I'm not solely an audio nut.


----------



## MrCurwen

UntilThen said:


> I have to take the wife for a holiday in June, just to prove that I'm not solely an audio nut.



Visit Sweden, kill two ducks with one precision blow. Save on shipping. Nordics are at their best during the summer.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I wrote a detailed post explaining why I no longer believe in an amp with multi tubes usage (because you loose sight of your objective - which is high fidelity music - you'll end up with your joy of rolling gorgeous tubes) but I decided not to post it because it will open up a can of worms and I certainly have no wish to derail this thread.
> 
> I'm reminded of what my shrewd technician told me, 'SQ is subjective. I won't tell you whether McIntosh sound better than Audio Note. That's for you to decide.' he declare!



Very wise words we would do well to heed.

I would very much like to see inside your can of worms please.. if it isn't too disgusting .


----------



## baronbeehive

MrCurwen said:


> Visit Sweden, kill two ducks with one precision blow. Save on shipping. Nordics are at their best during the summer.



If he doesn't go I will. After seeing that fantastic film "Stockholm My Love" with Neneh Cherry, I would love to see Stockholm myself.


----------



## UntilThen

It seems Oblivion is getting known in Australia. I didn’t even talk about it here.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> It seems Oblivion is getting known in Australia. I didn’t even talk about it here.


What happened?


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> What happened?



https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/to...adphone-setup/?do=findComment&comment=4458435


----------



## UntilThen

Sonic are you nearing completion of Joseph's amp? We're all anxious to see it. Just don't give it to Joseph first. 

In the meantime, I found this cartoon in my folder.


----------



## UntilThen

That's all I have back in Sydney now. The life of a Travelling Wilbury.  

Sennheiser Momentum IEM with NAD d1050 supported by Shiit Wyrd and NBN Broadband for fast transients.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Sonic are you nearing completion of Joseph's amp? We're all anxious to see it. Just don't give it to Joseph first.
> 
> In the meantime, I found this cartoon in my folder.


Not really close, yet. Just got the chassis last week and still missing a few custom parts. I'll post some pics when the chassis work is done and assembled


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> Sonic are you nearing completion of Joseph's amp? We're all anxious to see it. Just don't give it to Joseph first.
> 
> In the meantime, I found this cartoon in my folder.


I'll be sure to tell Tomas to send to to you first, and I'll even pay for overnight shipping to you.
Good cartoon.


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> I'll be sure to tell Tomas to send to to you first, and I'll even pay for overnight shipping to you.
> Good cartoon.



Don’t send to me. Too many drinks tonight. The clarity is gone.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Don’t send to me. Too many drinks tonight. The clarity is gone.



Contemplating your next purchase perhaps


----------



## UntilThen

Contemplation starts after I finish this


----------



## SonicTrance

I did promise some build pics so here you go 

This is the top plate of @joseph69 silver Citadel under construction




This is what I use, simple drill press. No CNC magic here


----------



## joseph69

SonicTrance said:


> I did promise some build pics so here you go


Looking good!


----------



## UntilThen

Hot ! You're very neat. Each unit is hand crafted from start to finish.

Are those semi circle holes for decorative purpose or ventilation.


----------



## UntilThen

Now I want to use 4 of those EL12 spez as power tubes and the Telefunken EL11s as drivers.  This is when my contemplation starts.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Hot ! You're very neat. Each unit is hand crafted from start to finish.
> 
> Are those semi circle holes for decorative purpose or ventilation.


They're for ventilation but I try to make it decorative. This amp will have decorative rings around the sockets as well.



UntilThen said:


> Now I want to use 4 of those EL12 spez as power tubes and the Telefunken EL11s as drivers.  This is when my contemplation starts.


So, you have already finished that bottle of whiskey?


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> So, you have already finished that bottle of whiskey?



That was last night. Today's a new day and time to dream of a new amp.


----------



## DecentLevi (Feb 9, 2020)

MrCurwen said:


> I take it these numbers are from measurements from Sonic? He did scale up the design somewhat, so those sound about right. My personal workhorse puts out about 1W and it's more than I'll ever need with speakers. Ears will give out before the amp starts clipping.
> 
> Since it was asked, I will super condensed answer this here. The reason is this: transients.
> 
> ...


That's interesting. So because of the special OT hybrid design, the sharp transients are electrically clipped, but done in a way that does not audibly degrade them? Dynamics have been often said to be one of the strengths of these amps, so it must be doing something the right way there.



MrCurwen said:


> I understand this line of thinking. This is 100% the place I was in at the start of my DIY journey, as I was beginning to put my own amps together.
> 
> Yet, this line of thinking is not taking into consideration the unique properties of Sonic's amps.
> 
> ...





MrCurwen said:


> Yes. But as said, in my opinion again, that will be less fruitful with these amps than with other amps. But on the plus side* ALL OF YOUR HEADPHONES will sound better with these amps*. So you'll win no matter what.


Just worth quoting again. I love it. That would certainly solve a lot of problems in the hobby if all headphones sounded better and more transparent.



MrCurwen said:


> Speakers do not have minimum current reqs but I get it you mean power reqs.
> 
> Here it is important to understand why this min power req is even mentioned. It is because SS amps drive the speakers directly. There is no output transformer. So, if the output of such an amp clips, even a little bit, there is DC fed to the speaker. This can very easily damage or even destroy the speaker. So, they spec it in such a way, that the signal transients never clip.
> 
> ...


That's great not being able to clip the speaker. I thought the min. power requirements for speakers had more to do with being able to give better control of the driver with transient response, but if the Oblivion and Citadel amps are able to drive slightly higher demanding speakers and still get good sound, even if at a somewhat lower volume then that widens the speakers as well that can pair well.



MrCurwen said:


> I would really encourage you to order, these products have a very high resale value also. So if you do think after tests that you want that rolling option, you can just sell it to somebody else.
> 
> Why 6L6 specifically, if I may ask? Did you read my posts on tube selection? What did you think about them?
> 
> A 6L6 based amp of the same design would sound better than most all other amps, but somewhat less spatial information, clarity (separation between voices/instruments) and less fast. So a bit more like a traditional tube amp. More distortion in other words. I've tried it myself.


I was interested to see a custom Ultrasonic Studios amp using the 6L6 series because these are some of the absolute highest acclaimed series such as I have experienced myself with my GEC KT66 tubes, and because I currently have and building a solid collection of top-tier tubes of this class for use with my upcoming Glenn OT SET amp. I would like to buy one of these amps also but funds permitting.



MrCurwen said:


> In my opinion as always, that will not produce any sound quality effects at all. Completely out of the picture.


RE cables: though I don't want to start a cable discussion, myself and a good cross section of users across all of Head-Fi have noticed first-hand how different conductors color the sound differently.


----------



## baronbeehive

DecentLevi said:


> RE cables: though I don't want to start a cable discussion, myself and a good cross section of users across all of Head-Fi have noticed first-hand how different conductors color the sound differently.



Personally, I'm not a great believer in the properties of cables, however I *have* experienced this myself. For example I've had a crappy silver cable which sounded... well... crappy. I've got OFC copper ATM which sounds warm and nice. I know that the differences between silver and copper are actually not that great, for example the resistances are fairly similar, and there are other factors which might influence anything you hear. For example cross sectional area, purity, whether any other materials are used in combination, if they are shielded, how the cables are arranged etc etc. One of the main things is that silver does not corrode so is often use to plate copper, so that is purely for longevity not for sound.

I've heard quite a lot of people say they made their own speaker cables out of cheap materials and they sounded excellent too!


----------



## baronbeehive (Feb 9, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> That was last night. Today's a new day and time to dream of a new amp.



Hey.. that was full yesterday . Sonic and I both noticed that, I guess you appreciated single malt!


----------



## baronbeehive (Feb 9, 2020)

SonicTrance said:


> This is what I use, simple drill press. No CNC magic here



Looks like you have a dedicated workshop now Sonic!


----------



## MrCurwen

Sonic your drill has a display. You're not at the CNC level yet, but you're definitely pretty close.

My drill has a handle and a cord. No display!




UntilThen said:


> Now I want to use 4 of those EL12 spez as power tubes and the Telefunken EL11s as drivers.  This is when my contemplation starts.



Decent curves, to my eyes very pretty envelopes. Availability is a bit concerning though. EL11 has a µ of about 20, hopefully that's enough.



DecentLevi said:


> That's interesting. So because of the special OT hybrid design, the sharp transients are electrically clipped, but done in a way that does not audibly degrade them? Dynamics have been often said to be one of the strengths of these amps, so it must be doing something the right way there.



Essentially yes. To be precise, the clipping behavior I was describing has nothing to do with the OT as such, it has to do with the circuit being either

1) open loop (no gNFB)

2) using gNFB.

This is the relevant thing here. If an amp using heavy gNFB clips, the loop destabilizes, and there is audible distortion for a long time, longer than the transient itself would last.

If there is no loop, there is nothing to destabilize. Clipping lasts as long as the transient lasts.

There are also other things to consider, but this is the main point, the most important thing to understand.



DecentLevi said:


> Just worth quoting again. I love it. That would certainly solve a lot of problems in the hobby if all headphones sounded better and more transparent.



Indeed. Once you try out Sonic's amps, you'll gain a completely new understanding of your signal chain as a whole. It's difficult to describe with words, other than "the source" becomes more important. In my personal opinion of course, perceptions may vary.



DecentLevi said:


> That's great not being able to clip the speaker. I thought the min. power requirements for speakers had more to do with being able to give better control of the driver with transient response, but if the Oblivion and Citadel amps are able to drive slightly higher demanding speakers and still get good sound, even if at a somewhat lower volume then that widens the speakers as well that can pair well.



No, it is about safety. The handling capability which you mention is not contingent on power, but rather impedance. If your amp's output impedance is too sluggish for a certain speaker, it will "not handle it well". Result will be dimished highs and boomy and "one note" bass; the classic low power SE amp retro sound. (Some like it, preferences may of course vary.)

While Sonic's amps will not reach direct drive 200W SS amp output impedances, they are completely out of the "tube amp output impedance" category. Within volume limits discussed earlier, the amps will provide excellent (in my and many reviewers opinion) control of even a little bit difficult speakers.

But control is not about power per se, if we are outside clipping territory. Loudness IS always about power.



DecentLevi said:


> I was interested to see a custom Ultrasonic Studios amp using the 6L6 series because these are some of the absolute highest acclaimed series such as I have experienced myself with my GEC KT66 tubes, and because I currently have and building a solid collection of top-tier tubes of this class for use with my upcoming Glenn OT SET amp. I would like to buy one of these amps also but funds permitting.



I see. You didn't comment on my tech posts about tube selection, but I assume you read them and understood them. Feel free to ask any questions or clarifications I'm happy to elaborate.

Are you not worried about having significantly higher distortion with 6L6 tubes? This will as a matter of fact provide you with less transparency, less atmosphere and 3D imaging, less clarity and separation between voices etc etc. The amp will still be a GOOD AMP, but why not get it as even better?

You have a stash of 6L6 eqs, okay, but think about this: you can get a HUGE stash of EL81's or EL36 eqs very very cheap. Then you'd have a huge stash of those as well. 

Or is it about the social aspect? You mention 'acclaim'. 

Tubes are just components. They are inherently, well, nothing. They only become 'something' when put into a circuit.

What they become is as much (or sometimes more) contingent on what the circuit is, than what the tube is.

The whole is always the tube in a circuit, the tube in itself is not "good sounding". Now if you only use similar circuits, say the retro classic circuits, then yes, the circuits are similar enough to each other that the tube's "inherent properties" in themselves might stand out.

But understand that this circuit is fundamentally pretty much completely different than the retro circuits. So the 'acclaim' collected from those retro circuits doesn't carry over there, in terms of actual performance ability.

Not that acclaim has much to do with performance ability anyway.

I'm not trying to be provocative here, just to bring new perspectives to think. Ask yourself, what is the purpose of your hobby? There is no right answer here, only your own answer. 

For me, it's transparent sound, for maximal realism and liveliness of sound, to enjoy music I like. Whatever components achieve this, I will use. 



DecentLevi said:


> RE cables: though I don't want to start a cable discussion, myself and a good cross section of users across all of Head-Fi have noticed first-hand how different conductors color the sound differently.



Oh I've experienced it myself. With guitar amps.

Guitar amps are not very much dissimilar to the oldies goldies classic retro circuits. From a modern technical perspective they have lots of problems, one of which is too much reliance on component quality.

My personal opinion which I am ready to explain if anybody is interested: if a circuit is too reliant on a single component (tube curves excluded), it is not a very good circuit.

It's like a house of cards. Move one card a bit and it all comes down.

This circuit is not like that. It will not come down (as in experience sound quality lowering) if you use "regular" wire. It is not reliant on the wire's properties. They will not have any effect.


----------



## SonicTrance

MrCurwen said:


> Sonic your drill has a display. You're not at the CNC level yet, but you're definitely pretty close.
> 
> My drill has a handle and a cord. No display!


Haha yeah! It's a step above the hand drill at least! The first few amps I built I only had a hand drill so this is much better. If I had the space I'd probably save up for a CNC though.


----------



## MrCurwen

In a few years you can get a next gen 3D printer and just print your chassis.

You could print a plastic logo even now and screw it on top of chassis.


----------



## UntilThen

MrCurwen said:


> Decent curves, to my eyes very pretty envelopes. Availability is a bit concerning though. EL11 has a µ of about 20, hopefully that's enough.



I wasn't serious when I said that I will use the EL11 and EL12 spez tubes but you reckon they have decent curves? I have 3 pairs that are NOS. 2 pairs Telefunken and 1 pair Telsa. Many pairs of NOS Telefunken and Siemens EL11s. I also have a pair of Tung Sol 12SL7gt black round plates NOS.

I think a Citadel of TS 12SL7GT and Telefunken EL12 spez will be beautiful.  

Using a similar layout to this...


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I wasn't serious when I said that I will use the EL11 and EL12 spez tubes but you reckon they have decent curves? I have 3 pairs that are NOS. 2 pairs Telefunken and 1 pair Telsa. Many pairs of NOS Telefunken and Siemens EL11s. I also have a pair of Tung Sol 12SL7gt black round plates NOS.
> 
> I think a Citadel of TS 12SL7GT and Telefunken EL12 spez will be beautiful.
> 
> Using a similar layout to this...


Wait until you see @joseph69 amp. 6P7S tubes are also beautiful =) The thing is that the tubes needs to be quiet in this circuit, very important. 

I've built a version of Citadel with 5998's at the output for example. 5998 are very linear tubes and it did sound great but it was very noisy. Another example is the C3G. I used those at the input in a SE version of this amp. Again sounded great but noisy. Maybe the EL12 spez's are quiet in this circuit, who knows?


----------



## DecentLevi (Feb 9, 2020)

SonicTrance +1 vote for trying the EL12 Spez. For me these have for years mainstay of absolute purity and although I have not measured them, they really strike me as very very low Distortion. And I have yet to see one person who has not liked them, either as drivers or powers. They're really something special a very clean, dynamic and life like organic sound that I've literally not heard after rolling arpund 50 other types of tubes. The only thing is that at least, when they were not properly implemented, being used on the Feliks Audio amps, there were somewhat on the lean and bright side, but that's said to be only because they weren't done at proper operating points. And I have two really good pairs of these as well.  This couldn't be something for mass production though, because supplies are running a little bit low.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Wait until you see @joseph69 amp. 6P7S tubes are also beautiful =) The thing is that the tubes needs to be quiet in this circuit, very important.
> 
> I've built a version of Citadel with 5998's at the output for example. 5998 are very linear tubes and it did sound great but it was very noisy. Another example is the C3G. I used those at the input in a SE version of this amp. Again sounded great but noisy. Maybe the EL12 spez's are quiet in this circuit, who knows?



You're right, it has to be quiet. That's what I like about Oblivion besides the sound. Dead quiet.  Quad 6P7S for US$16.50. That's a no-brainer.

Brought the Axis LS28 bookshelf speakers to Canberra so I can roll speakers ... haha. This has more bass !

How's this for picture quality from the iPhone 11 Pro Max? Unedited.


----------



## MrCurwen

UntilThen said:


> I wasn't serious when I said that I will use the EL11 and EL12 spez tubes but you reckon they have decent curves?



Yes they have decent curves, they'll probably do pretty well. Sims (with all the caveats that sims have) seem to indicate EL12 is almost as good as EL81 and EL36 in this circuit. In real life it could be indistinguishable, or then again not.

I would not recommend doing a 'workhorse' amp with those tubes though. I've dealt with old stock US and European tubes quite a lot, and while many are sold as "NOS" or "tests 100%" or whatever, the lifespan they have left could be anything from 1 week to 10 years. I would not deal with that risk on an amp I use every day.



SonicTrance said:


> Wait until you see @joseph69 amp. 6P7S tubes are also beautiful =) The thing is that the tubes needs to be quiet in this circuit, very important.
> 
> I've built a version of Citadel with 5998's at the output for example. 5998 are very linear tubes and it did sound great but it was very noisy. Another example is the C3G. I used those at the input in a SE version of this amp. Again sounded great but noisy. Maybe the EL12 spez's are quiet in this circuit, who knows?



Indeed. In my opinion the most tragic tube like this is the 6E5P. It's supremely linear, yet it oscillates to literally high heavens (it's an satellite communications tube by design) even before you turn the power on.

I've done I think like 3 or 4 very frustrating troubleshooting rounds with my 6E5P workhorse and the background is decent, but not pitch black by any means.

I haven't tried ferrites yet. That could be the workaround maybe. Anyway there are plenty of tubes that are nice to work with and provide first class results so just go with those.


----------



## MrCurwen

UntilThen said:


> How's this for picture quality from the iPhone 11 Pro Max? Unedited.



My aesthetics are a bit eccentric, I'd say the tophat needs a nice bowtie to finish the look!


----------



## UntilThen

MrCurwen said:


> Yes they have decent curves, they'll probably do pretty well. Sims (with all the caveats that sims have) seem to indicate EL12 is almost as good as EL81 and EL36 in this circuit. In real life it could be indistinguishable, or then again not.
> 
> I would not recommend doing a 'workhorse' amp with those tubes though. I've dealt with old stock US and European tubes quite a lot, and while many are sold as "NOS" or "tests 100%" or whatever, the lifespan they have left could be anything from 1 week to 10 years. I would not deal with that risk on an amp I use every day.



You're right. A workhorse amp should not rely on 3 pairs of NOS EL12 spez. I'll keep them to admire them... on the wall.  




Original boxes.


----------



## DecentLevi (Feb 11, 2020)

MrCurwen said:


> (...)
> I see. You didn't comment on my tech posts about tube selection, but I assume you read them and understood them. Feel free to ask any questions or clarifications I'm happy to elaborate.
> 
> Are you not worried about having significantly higher distortion with 6L6 tubes? This will as a matter of fact provide you with less transparency, less atmosphere and 3D imaging, less clarity and separation between voices etc etc. The amp will still be a GOOD AMP, but why not get it as even better?
> ...



Feel free to post a link to your tube selection posts, I seem to have missed it, would be an interesting read. By acclaim of the 6L6 series I mean that many people who tried them had the best results on their amps vs. many other semi-compatible classes such as 6AS7, 6080 and even to 5998. But as you say his amps are a totally different design so the performance may not transfer over. And I guess you meant that even if a similar amp were designed around them it still may not compete with the current design because this series of tube was found to give off higher distortion than the currently used tubes?

Speaking of ideas for tubes, @SonicTrance I recommend at least looking into GU50 as well as EL12 Spez. At least with the Feliks Audio OTL amps, both were received as extremely exceptional and head & shoulders above many other classes. The GU50 are a unique design and are actually very cheap and abundantly available. I haven't heard them but if you visit the Euforia thread here you can read a lot about people's results with them. Certainly there is nothing wrong with your amps, especially my being someone who has yet to try them, so just my two cents.

The purpose of my hobby around here? Moving up that audio latter, in the quest for sonic perfection! It does seem a latter winding with infinite curves and no top in sight, and takes some sanity to remain 'earthed'... or is that what my power conditioner / regenerator is for? LOL


----------



## MrCurwen

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/post-15427047

This and the next post.


----------



## UntilThen

EL81 tubes arrived from Germany first before the 6AV6 from Taiwan even though I ordered the latter first. 4 shining NOS tubes for US $19.90. Even the pins are shining.


----------



## UntilThen

I missed using my headphone system for a week because I was busy. Well it's Friday now and I started listening again using Verite and Oblivion. Love love this combination. Clarity with the smoothness of a concert pianist. 

Like this concert pianist


----------



## Marutks

Does this amp sound good with Verite?


----------



## UntilThen

Marutks said:


> Does this amp sound good with Verite?



Yes. Didn’t you read all my impressions of Oblivion with Verite Open?  

IMO there’s great synergy there. Soundstage, details, airiness and impact.


----------



## joseph69

Coming along very nicely.


----------



## MrCurwen

Very nice indeed!


----------



## Phantaminum

joseph69 said:


> Coming along very nicely.



Woah, what build is that and how much power does it output? Looks great.


----------



## joseph69

Phantaminum said:


> Woah, what build is that and how much power does it output? Looks great.


Thank you!
That's a custom build from Tomas using Citadel internals.
All power specs can be found *here* on their site.


----------



## UntilThen

Looks good though I'm getting quite fond of the standard look. The big standard chassis sits nicely on the top of my rack.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> Looks good though I'm getting quite fond of the standard look. The big standard chassis sits nicely on the top of my rack.


Thanks.
I like the look of the newer standard Citadel with the revised tube arrangement, as well as the original but I just like having something different and I prefer my amps to be silver over black. Can't wait to hear it!


----------



## joseph69

MrCurwen said:


> Very nice indeed!


Thank you!


----------



## baronbeehive

joseph69 said:


> Coming along very nicely.



Great... reminds me of my Little Dot!


----------



## joseph69

baronbeehive said:


> Great... reminds me of my Little Dot!


Just looked at the LD SE ad it sure does look very similar. That's a nice amp!


----------



## UntilThen

Citadel - a beautiful looking amp using the cheapest of tubes. I like it.


----------



## UntilThen

I'll have a Chord Dave with stand coming soon for me to compare with Oblivion.  

Talk about a lopsided comparison.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I'll have a Chord Dave with stand coming soon for me to compare with Oblivion.
> 
> Talk about a lopsided comparison.



WOW!
.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> WOW!
> .



It's not called WOW. It's DAVE or Digital to Analogue Veritas in Extremis .... what a sick name.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> It's not called WOW. It's DAVE or Digital to Analogue Veritas in Extremis .... what a sick name.


I see a Blue Hawaii coming......


----------



## joseph69 (Feb 21, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> I'll have a Chord Dave with stand coming soon for me to compare with Oblivion.


I'll have my Citadel coming my way within the next 2 weeks to compare to both, my GS-X mk2 & WA33 w/upgraded tubes.


----------



## Phantaminum

Is that amp upside down? And are those tubes holding up the amp? :O


----------



## joseph69

Phantaminum said:


> Is that amp upside down? And are those tubes holding up the amp? :O


Yes, it's up-side down. I thought the photo was rotated when it was sent to me so I rotated it only to realize it actually is up-side down while being tested and burned in. It's actually resting on the transformer cover, but it does look like it's resting on the tubes. I'm not concerned, I'm sure Tomas knows what he's doing.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> I see a Blue Hawaii coming......



They can all come if someone is sending it to me.  

The Chord Dave isn't mine. I'm buying it for a friend in Singapore but I'll get to sample it.


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> I'll have my Citadel coming my way within the next 2 weeks to compare to both, my GS-X mk2 & WA33 w/upgraded tubes.



That will be some comparisons. Looking forward to your report !

The amp is coming along nicely even though it's defying gravity. Tubes are glowing beautifully.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> That will be some comparisons. Looking forward to your report !
> 
> The amp is coming along nicely even though it's defying gravity. Tubes are glowing beautifully.


Looking forward to the comparisons as well.
Yes, Tomas did a very nice job from the photos and he has some special powers to make his amps defy gravity. 
I also noticed how nicely the tubes are glowing.


----------



## UntilThen

It's been 2 months living with Oblivion. I still occasionally power on Studio Six but Oblivion in the chain sound sweeter and clearer. Verite Open has a natural warm tone and has the uncanny ability to reveal details and yet sound very relaxing. This is no doubt aided by Oblivion and Yggdrasil. I am very happy with the setup as it is. I could live with this setup.

I'll be trying Dave as a dac into Oblivion and also as a dac / amp. Don't know if I'll get around to trying it out as a preamp.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> I'll be trying Dave as a dac into Oblivion *and also as a dac / amp.*


Looking forward to hearing your impressions of the DAVE direct.
I listened to the DAVE + M Scaler w/Utopia at a friend house, and too me, it just sounded good.


----------



## baronbeehive (Feb 21, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> It's not called WOW. It's DAVE or Digital to Analogue Veritas in Extremis .... what a sick name.



Yes.., first Hugo, now Dave, I wonder what next.. Eric perhaps..

Looking forward to your comparisons.

I'm sure your friend won't miss it for a few weeks or so LOL!


----------



## SonicTrance

Phantaminum said:


> Is that amp upside down? And are those tubes holding up the amp? :O


Yes, it's upside down. The amp is resting on the transformer cover. There's no pressure on the tubes since the amp is back heavy. There's no defying gravity


----------



## SonicTrance

Ok guys. Here're some proper photos of @joseph69 Citadel complete.














Sneak peak on the organized mess inside! 


Testing the pre-amp function. Citadel driving Citadel


----------



## UntilThen

It really is very nice. I sit here eating grapes and I can't stop eating while looking at the photos.  

Initially when Joseph told me his amp will have only one transformer housing, I thought that wouldn't look as good but this turn out beautifully. 

Which Citadel is driving which and why no colour photos?


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> It really is very nice. I sit here eating grapes and I can't stop eating while looking at the photos.




...it's toast for me on a chilly morning. OK Sonic, when I say chilly I don't mean -10 degrees, I mean *+10* LOL!

I don't know which I like best black or silver Citadel. Now if you had optional gold plating that would be a different kettle of fish.
.


----------



## MrCurwen

First class work. Simple but effective.


----------



## joseph69

SonicTrance said:


> Ok guys. Here're some proper photos of @joseph69 Citadel complete.


Tomas,

You've really executed this Citadel build beautifully!
I'm super impressed with your craftsmanship (to say the least) and can't wait to see an it in person and hear this beauty!
A+++


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> It really is very nice. I sit here eating grapes and I can't stop eating while looking at the photos.
> 
> Initially when Joseph told me his amp will have only one transformer housing, I thought that wouldn't look as good but this turn out beautifully.
> 
> Which Citadel is driving which and why no colour photos?


Josephs amp was driving mine. I don't have pre amp outputs on my amp.
Haha, the photos are unedited color photos, lol. Just that the amp is off. I thought about taking some pics with the amp on but I'd need to take the variac up to the addict where my "photo studio" is. This will have to make do for now  



joseph69 said:


> Tomas,
> 
> You've really executed this Citadel build beautifully!
> I'm super impressed with your craftsmanship (to say the least) and can't wait to see an it in person and hear this beauty!
> A+++


I'm glad you like it! I'm quiet pleased myself actually with how it turned out! I'll start the 3h packaging procedure tomorrow. That's the fun part! haha


----------



## Slim1970

joseph69 said:


> Tomas,
> 
> You've really executed this Citadel build beautifully!
> I'm super impressed with your craftsmanship (to say the least) and can't wait to see an it in person and hear this beauty!
> A+++


@joseph69 what features did you request be built on your Citadel?


----------



## joseph69

Slim1970 said:


> @joseph69 what features did you request be built on your Citadel?


1- Speaker outputs w/selector switch.
2- Low/high impedance switch.
3- Preamp outputs


----------



## UntilThen

Silver and black side by side. You are a visual designer as well, Sonic.


----------



## joseph69

Both, the black "Citadel" & silver "Custom version of Citadel" are now on* Ultrasonic Studios* website.


----------



## UntilThen

Sonic are they the same price?


----------



## nishan99

Awesome craftsmanship!


----------



## Slim1970

joseph69 said:


> 1- Speaker outputs w/selector switch.
> 2- Low/high impedance switch.
> 3- Preamp outputs


Nice, looking forward to your impressions of this amp versus the WA33. I’m looking for a tube amp with great dynamics and driving ability. Your Citadel looks amazing!


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> Sonic are they the same price?


No, they're not.



Slim1970 said:


> Nice, looking forward to your impressions of this amp versus the WA33. I’m looking for a tube amp with great dynamics and driving ability. Your Citadel looks amazing!


Thank you.
I'm looking forward to the comparison myself and I'll post my impressions after exclusively, and sufficiently listening to the Citadel.


----------



## baronbeehive

joseph69 said:


> I'm looking forward to the comparison myself...



Me too.

What cans are you using?


----------



## joseph69

baronbeehive said:


> Me too.
> 
> What cans are you using?


I currently own the HEKv2, Utopia, GS2000e, GH1, RS1i, 325is and I'm waiting for my HEDDphone to arrive. My main headphones are my HEKv2, Utopia & GS2000e, the others I might use occasionally, but I'm looking forward to trying them all with the Citadel.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Sonic are they the same price?


No, custom amp, custom price. Maybe I'll set a price for this version I built for Joseph, or maybe I'll leave it as "custom". I haven't decided yet. 


nishan99 said:


> Awesome craftsmanship!


Thanks!


----------



## joseph69

I received my Citadel Custom this afternoon and listened with my Utopia for 6+hrs.
I literally couldn't stop listening to my Utopia with this amplifier. I've never experienced so much musicality between a headphone & amplifier as I did tonight. To say that I'm impressed with the Citadel would be a total understatement. It's almost 1:30am and I'm wide awake with awe about how this amplifier delivers. It's simply spectacular in every way possible too me that there is really nothing more I could ask for. Period! 

@SonicTrance (Tomas) I really can't find the words to say how thankful I am for taking the chance and ordering the Citadel from you, but if anyone has ever experienced one of those moments after shutting down your system and looking back at it (several times) in amazement, you know how I feel about what I have here. I honestly thought this amp was going to just sound good and that was it, I'd be selling it off in a very short time. I couldn't have been more wrong in thinking this. What you have created here is clearly a GEM too me. Thank you very much on the sound, build quality & craftsmanship of the Citadel.


----------



## SonicTrance

I'm really glad you like it! Thanks for the kind words =)


----------



## UntilThen

@joseph69 , first impressions counts. Glad that it turn out well for you. I remember listening to Oblivion on the first day. I was quite smitten by it. 

Those are gorgeous photos. Citadel didn't look out of place beside the WA33. It look so classy there but more important, it sounded great to you with Utopia.  ... and you have more headphones to try with it and speakers. Keep the impressions coming.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> @joseph69 , first impressions counts. Glad that it turn out well for you. I remember listening to Oblivion on the first day. I was quite smitten by it.
> 
> Those are gorgeous photos. Citadel didn't look out of place beside the WA33. It look so classy there but more important, it sounded great to you with Utopia.  ... and you have more headphones to try with it and speakers. Keep the impressions coming.


Thank you for the compliment on the photos.
Next up will be my HEKv2, and I'm sure it's going to sound just as good as my Utopia. 
As far as speakers, I don't have any, I asked for the option just incase I ever decide to buy them I have it.


----------



## koven

joseph69 said:


> I received my Citadel Custom this afternoon and listened with my Utopia for 6+hrs.
> I literally couldn't stop listening to my Utopia with this amplifier. I've never experienced so much musicality between a headphone & amplifier as I did tonight. To say that I'm impressed with the Citadel would be a total understatement. It's almost 1:30am and I'm wide awake with awe about how this amplifier delivers. It's simply spectacular in every way possible too me that there is really nothing more I could ask for. Period!
> 
> @SonicTrance (Tomas) I really can't find the words to say how thankful I am for taking the chance and ordering the Citadel from you, but if anyone has ever experienced one of those moments after shutting down your system and looking back at it (several times) in amazement, you know how I feel about what I have here. I honestly thought this amp was going to just sound good and that was it, I'd be selling it off in a very short time. I couldn't have been more wrong in thinking this. What you have created here is clearly a GEM too me. Thank you very much on the sound, build quality & craftsmanship of the Citadel.



It is a beauty, I take it you like it more than Wa33, or at least equally with better price value. I see you're selling the Wa33?


----------



## joseph69

koven said:


> It is a beauty, I take it you like it more than Wa33, or at least equally with better price value. I see you're selling the Wa33?


Thank you!
No, just 2 totally different amps. Both are excellent, but for the headphones I own it doesn't make sense for me to keep the WA33 and I definitely don't need 3 amps. If I had hard to drive headphones the WA33 wouldn't be going anywhere.


----------



## Sound Trooper

joseph69 said:


> I received my Citadel Custom this afternoon and listened with my Utopia for 6+hrs.
> I literally couldn't stop listening to my Utopia with this amplifier. I've never experienced so much musicality between a headphone & amplifier as I did tonight. To say that I'm impressed with the Citadel would be a total understatement. It's almost 1:30am and I'm wide awake with awe about how this amplifier delivers. It's simply spectacular in every way possible too me that there is really nothing more I could ask for. Period!
> 
> @SonicTrance (Tomas) I really can't find the words to say how thankful I am for taking the chance and ordering the Citadel from you, but if anyone has ever experienced one of those moments after shutting down your system and looking back at it (several times) in amazement, you know how I feel about what I have here. I honestly thought this amp was going to just sound good and that was it, I'd be selling it off in a very short time. I couldn't have been more wrong in thinking this. What you have created here is clearly a GEM too me. Thank you very much on the sound, build quality & craftsmanship of the Citadel.



woah! This is a really pretty amp!


----------



## joseph69

Sound Trooper said:


> woah! This is a really pretty amp!


Thanks!


----------



## Sound Trooper

joseph69 said:


> Thanks!



The Citadel must be pretty spectacular for you to put up the WA33 for sale.


----------



## joseph69

Sound Trooper said:


> The Citadel must be pretty spectacular for you to put up the WA33 for sale.


The Citadel is definitely spectacular for me as well as my WA33, but both are 2 totally different amps.
At this point in my journey I mostly listen to my Utopia & HEKv2 and some of my Grados and I'm starting to listen less and less each session, and at lower volumes as well. I guess I could say I'm realizing I don't need such a beast for my headphone mentioned above to enjoy the type of listening I've been doing. If I were to still own my Susvara, or any other hard to drive headphone, I wouldn't be selling the WA33.  And don't get me wrong, both, the Utopia & HEKv2 sound amazing through the WA33, but again, I really don't need such a beast for these type of headphones to sound great.


----------



## SonicTrance

joseph69 said:


> The Citadel is definitely spectacular for me as well as my WA33, but both are 2 totally different amps.
> At this point in my journey I mostly listen to my Utopia & HEKv2 and some of my Grados and I'm starting to listen less and less each session, and at lower volumes as well. I guess I could say I'm realizing I don't need such a beast for my headphone mentioned above to enjoy the type of listening I've been doing. If I were to still own my Susvara, or any other hard to drive headphone, I wouldn't be selling the WA33.  And don't get me wrong, both, the Utopia & HEKv2 sound amazing through the WA33, but again, I really don't need such a beast for these type of headphones to sound great.


What about the HEDDphone? Have you received it yet? I think you'll be surprised how well Citadel drives tougher loads.


----------



## attmci (Mar 1, 2020)

joseph69 said:


> The Citadel is definitely spectacular for me as well as my WA33, but both are 2 totally different amps.
> At this point in my journey I mostly listen to my Utopia & HEKv2 and some of my Grados and I'm starting to listen less and less each session, and at lower volumes as well. I guess I could say I'm realizing I don't need such a beast for my headphone mentioned above to enjoy the type of listening I've been doing. If I were to still own my Susvara, or any other hard to drive headphone, I wouldn't be selling the WA33.  And don't get me wrong, both, the Utopia & HEKv2 sound amazing through the WA33, but again, I really don't need such a beast for these type of headphones to sound great.


Wow, I am very impressed. You should host a party to celebrate, neighbor. 

You sold your 1266?


----------



## joseph69

SonicTrance said:


> What about the HEDDphone? Have you received it yet? I think you'll be surprised how well Citadel drives tougher loads.


So, about the HEDD, yes I received it but it's just not for my tastes so it'll be going back to headphones.com.
I know most are enjoying their HEDD very much, but I just don't feel the same way about them.



attmci said:


> Wow, I am very impressed. You should host a party to celebrate, neighbor.
> 
> You sold your 1266?


No, I never owned the 1266 but I've borrowed the original & Phi CC from TCC and had the TC here as well, but due to their fit I passed on them.
I did own the Susvara & HE6se & 800S at one point, but didn't care for the 6se or the 800S too much and preferred the HEKv2 over the Susvara.
Even though I've listed my WA33, if I don't get any interest,I've no problem whatsoever keeping & enjoying it as I've done since owning it because it is an incredible amp. I also like change and don't like to have too much gear, so downsizing is more than fine with me.


----------



## mordy

joseph69 said:


> So, about the HEDD, yes I received it but it's just not for my tastes so it'll be going back to headphones.com.
> I know most are enjoying their HEDD very much, but I just don't feel the same way about them.
> 
> 
> ...


Would you mind describing what you don't like about the HEDD?


----------



## attmci

joseph69 said:


> So, about the HEDD, yes I received it but it's just not for my tastes so it'll be going back to headphones.com.
> I know most are enjoying their HEDD very much, but I just don't feel the same way about them.
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed. But I mod mine and fine with the fit for now.


----------



## attmci

mordy said:


> Would you mind describing what you don't like about the HEDD?


I assume that's personal taste, Mordy.


----------



## mordy

attmci said:


> I assume that's personal taste, Mordy.


Absolutely, but I find it helpful to learn about how people perceive different things and it adds to my knowledge, especially if there are several people who have similar experiences.


----------



## joseph69

mordy said:


> Would you mind describing what you don't like about the HEDD?


In short, I enjoy both, my Utopia & HEKv2 much more.
The HEDD sounds good, but that's about it too me. 
Also, even though they're comfortable for their weight as well as their distribution I think their overall size is just overkill.



attmci said:


> Agreed. But I mod mine and fine with the fit for now.


They fit me fine, it's just what I mentioned above.


----------



## nishan99

joseph69 said:


> In short, I enjoy both, my Utopia & HEKv2 much more.
> The HEDD sounds good, but that's about it too me.
> Also, even though they're comfortable for their weight as well as their distribution I think their overall size is just overkill.
> 
> ...



+1
The egg shaped hifimans have a very unique presentation, I can't imagine myself without them.


----------



## UntilThen

So Joseph, how does the HE1000 v2 sound driven by the stunning looking Citadel?


----------



## joseph69

I had to determinate my HEKv2 from dual 3-pin XLR to 4-pin XLR so I habit listened yet, but both my Utopia & GS2000e sound spectacular.
 My GS-X mk2 sounds spectacular with the HEKv2 so I'm not really concerned about the Citadel pairing, but of course I'm interested either way.
I'll keep you posted.

Have you (or anyone else) tried planners with Oblivion/citadel?
If so, what were your experiences?


----------



## UntilThen

I sold off the LCD-3f just before I knew Oblivion was coming because I prefer Verite’s comfort and sound signature.


----------



## wasupdog

Just as good with planar as with dynamics.  I end up using high impedance mode with my Citadel and Abyss since there's more power.


----------



## Maxx134

Got some great prices on tubes.




Needed some backups.
Glad I no longer have to spend big money, with these tube types.


----------



## UntilThen

I bought 4 x Siemens EL81 for US $21 and 2 x NEC 6AV6 for US $7. Gone are the days when I would be searching ebay for GEC tubes.


----------



## joseph69

I just purchased 4x 6P7S & 2x 6SL7 from Russia for $54.00 as back ups.


----------



## Phantaminum

joseph69 said:


> I had to determinate my HEKv2 from dual 3-pin XLR to 4-pin XLR so I habit listened yet, but both my Utopia & GS2000e sound spectacular.
> My GS-X mk2 sounds spectacular with the HEKv2 so I'm not really concerned about the Citadel pairing, but of course I'm interested either way.
> I'll keep you posted.
> 
> ...



I've tried the Ananda and Aeon Flow 2 with the Oblivion. There's plenty of power to run them and about the only complaint I may have from SS/Hybrid amp is their stronger lower end. I don't really miss it though.


----------



## joseph69

Phantaminum said:


> I've tried the Ananda and Aeon Flow 2 with the Oblivion. There's plenty of power to run them and about the only complaint I may have from SS/Hybrid amp is their stronger lower end. I don't really miss it though.


I'll be re-terminating the headphone cable tomorrow and listening in the evening.


----------



## joseph69

joseph69 said:


> I just purchased 4x 6P7S & 2x 6SL7 from Russia for $54.00 as back ups.


Actually, the tubes where only $34.00 and the shipping was $20.00


----------



## nishan99

wasupdog said:


> Just as good with planar as with dynamics.  I end up using high impedance mode with my Citadel and Abyss since there's more power.



+ you don't have to worry about the impedance curve or the dampening facort for low z planars like low z dynamics.


----------



## Maxx134 (Apr 7, 2020)

I am editing this post to correct my findings.

On the Oblivion output tubes, when I swapped between the el81 tesla & Mullard, I ended up preferring the stock and Tesla tubes there, which to me felt more solid, over the Mullard, which felt a tiny bit sloppy, for lack of a better word. ..


The Oblivion 6at6 driver tube
display a varied sense of immediacy and energy.

Here is my list on the driver tubes:

1-mullards 6at6, my favorites now as the amp is most vivid and alive with those tubes over the rest.
It seems to add some harmonics which enchance liveliness.


2-My second fav is tung-sol 6at6, which gave me great bottom end punch and nice even clarity and stage.

3- My third fav was my philco, which were lively yet a bit more forward.

4- The stock Tungsram tubes were actually very good, striking a balance of relaxed delicate detailing, and one of largest soundstage.

5- The Silvana I tried was very neutral and nice trebles, but  touch leaner on bottom range, maybe due to it being NOS and needing break in..

6- The zenith came in last, as balanced but least involving, as probably needing alot burn in.

So my fav tubes are the mullard & tungsol in driver stage (sonic traits), and the Tesla or stock tubes in output stage(solidity traits).

Should also be noted that differences detected were of a much lesser magnitude than most other tube amps I tried.


----------



## SonicTrance

Maxx134 said:


> This is way less noted differences than I expected to hear.
> Indeed it would be hard pressed to hear differences.


This is proof of good design as all linear tubes sounds great! Put in an old, worn out, 6AT6 and you’ll here a difference


----------



## Maxx134

What is interesting is that instead of focusing on tube coloration, whe can now focus on other less tangeable aspects of tube rolling, to find what if any differences are left?


----------



## DecentLevi (Mar 9, 2020)

joseph69 said:


> So, about the HEDD, yes I received it but it's just not for my tastes so it'll be going back to headphones.com.
> I know most are enjoying their HEDD very much, but I just don't feel the same way about them.
> 
> 
> ...


Wow I'm shocked you didn't like the HEDDphone with your Citadel. These can be very picky on system synergy. I remember though how floored I was with their pairing on the PrimaLuna Evo 200 tube amp. Did you by chance also happen to try it on any other amps, and if so, did you get better results? And would you mind to tell me which aspect of it didn't you like, for example micro detail, soundstage, dynamics, or other?


----------



## UntilThen

Pick up a HD650 on the weekend and I can't believe how good Oblivion makes it sound.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Pick up a HD650 on the weekend and I can't believe how good Oblivion makes it sound.


I always wanted to hear the 650's but never had the chance. Glad to hear it's a good pairing with Oblivion!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I always wanted to hear the 650's but never had the chance. Glad to hear it's a good pairing with Oblivion!



Had a HD650 before but it sounded dark and warm to my ears. Now with Oblivion driving it, it's airy and there's details and it's less warm now.  The magical mids of HD650 makes this a no brainer AUD $250 purchase.


----------



## joseph69

DecentLevi said:


> Wow I'm shocked you didn't like the HEDDphone with your Citadel. These can be very picky on system synergy. I remember though how floored I was with their pairing on the PrimaLuna Evo 200 tube amp. Did you by chance also happen to try it on any other amps, and if so, did you get better results? And would you mind to tell me which aspect of it didn't you like, for example micro detail, soundstage, dynamics, or other?


I tried (and I'm still trying) the HEDD w/ GS-X mk2, WA33, Citadel and as I've mentioned before, I find the HEDD to sound good, but that's about it. I totally prefer my Utopia & HEKv2 to it, by far. I don't find the sound-stage to be expansive, nor the depth, and I also don't find the detail retreival to be as good as what I've read or expected. The bass is nice, but I feel it lacks authority and solidity, it's a bit soft too my ears. I also find the sound to be directed inward towards the center of my head. This is a small companies first attempt at a headphone, so it's very possible their units vary which is why I'm not hearing what others are.


----------



## mordy

SonicTrance said:


> I always wanted to hear the 650's but never had the chance. Glad to hear it's a good pairing with Oblivion!
> 
> Hi ST,
> Copying this from a recent post of mine:
> ...


----------



## Maxx134 (Mar 9, 2020)

DecentLevi said:


> Wow I'm shocked you didn't like the HEDDphone with your Citadel. These can be very picky on system synergy. I remember though how floored I was with their pairing on the PrimaLuna Evo 200 tube amp.


Thanks to joseph69 , I was able to hear the "HEDDphone" as well.
I think member " DecentLevi" may have misunderstood, as it's still a nice headphone, and I did not feel that it was amp picky at all, at least not the one I heard.

Yet I can confirm and agree pretty much exactly what member joseph69 said. He has a good ear I noticed.

At first, I felt is was juicy and thick, but very busy..

Upon further comparison to some others, I felt like the low level midrange detailing was elevated into the same space, without the depth of the others.
It had a closer soundstage, somewhat like a top closed can.

It also had some coloration in the low end, which was not bad, but bass impact did not hit the ear like the others.
Instead, a softer non-directional impact was heard, causing it to sound a bit vague in bass transient hits.

All the top cans have more complete attributes, like more soundstage and clarity, but that doesn't mean the HEDDphone was bad.
For instance, I would consider it a viable choice over a maybe a Verite or empyrean, but not over any HEK version, hd800, Susvara, Abyss,  Utopia or even a  Focal Clear.


Apologies if this sounds brutal, but it should not be. It should be considered a good Headphone as it is still musical and non offensive.




joseph69 said:


> I tried (and I'm still trying) the HEDD w/ GS-X mk2, WA33, Citadel and as I've mentioned before, I find the HEDD to sound good, but that's about it. I totally prefer my Utopia & HEKv2 to it, by far. I don't find the sound-stage to be expansive, nor the depth, and I also don't find the detail retreival to be as good as what I've read or expected. The bass is nice, but I feel it lacks authority and solidity, it's a bit soft too my ears. I also find the sound to be directed inward towards the center of my head. This is a small companies first attempt at a headphone, so it's very possible their units vary which is why I'm not hearing what others are.


I have to agree fully.
But I am thinking the rave reviews comes from initial euphoria, and not comparisons.


----------



## joseph69

Maxx134 said:


>


I thought I heard some noises last night, then when I awoke this morning
I was wondering where my couch and some of my headphones went.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Wow I'm shocked you didn't like the HEDDphone with your Citadel. These can be very picky on system synergy. I remember though how floored I was with their pairing on the PrimaLuna Evo 200 tube amp. Did you by chance also happen to try it on any other amps, and if so, did you get better results? And would you mind to tell me which aspect of it didn't you like, for example micro detail, soundstage, dynamics, or other?



Personal impressions are just that. What works for others may not necessary works for you and vice versa. Headphones are very personal in terms of tone, fit, comfort and looks. Count ourselves fortunate that there are so many headphone manufacturers and models. Ultimately if you like how a headphone sound and can live with it for the long term then that's all that matters. Of course there's also system synergy.


----------



## joseph69

Just needed to pop in and say that I'm enjoying the Citadel Custom immensely.
With this said, I'm not only rediscovering my music, but also all of my headphones. 
I haven't had 6hr listening sessions in a very, very long time and I find myself listening all night long as if I just entered the headphone scene.
Everything sounds exceptionally fine out of this amp. This may very well be the best daily driver I've ever owned. It's that impressive too me!


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Anybody knows the story of the custom Citadel silver version? Layout, Tubes, and Transformer are different..


----------



## SonicTrance

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Anybody knows the story of the custom Citadel silver version? Layout, Tubes, and Transformer are different..


Circuit wise, the only difference is the output tubes. The rest is aesthetics. These tubes will give slightly more power to high Z phones due to higher voltage swing.


----------



## SonicTrance

Another Oblivion finished! This one is fully stacked with speaker and pre-amp outputs, as well as XLR inputs and impedance switch.


----------



## nishan99

SonicTrance said:


> Circuit wise, the only difference is the output tubes. The rest is aesthetics. These tubes will give slightly more power to high Z phones due to higher voltage swing.



Can the Oblivion utilize a more powerful tubes?


----------



## SonicTrance

nishan99 said:


> Can the Oblivion utilize a more powerful tubes?


The thing with the 6p7s is that it has more gain than the stock 6p31s used in Citadel. While it has more gain it also has lower bias voltage than the 6p31s but the available voltage swing still is slightly higher in the end.
This will give more power to high Z phones because voltage will clip before current at high Z loads, low Z loads remains the same since I run the 6p7s at the same current I do the 6p31s and at low Z loads the current will clip first. 

With that said, there's still ample power in the stock versions for headphones!

I could build an Oblivion with higher gain tubes. With some redesigning of course. As for more power to low Z loads the EL81's could supply that but I'd need to use a different chassis with big heatsinks.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Another Oblivion finished! This one is fully stacked with speaker and pre-amp outputs, as well as XLR inputs and impedance switch.



The owner will be pleased. I spend a week listening with Studio Six exclusively. Today I power on Oblivion using both Verite and HD650. Immediately the transients are snappier. Different presentation from both amps. Both very enjoyable.


----------



## cskippy

I am a happy new owner of an Oblivion amp thanks to Tomas.  Upon first listening, immediately I was blown away by the incredible sound stage. I chose my DAC as it has the best sound stage I've heard and Oblivion makes it fully realized. What was once ambiguous as far as placement or close localization now has true depth and expansiveness.  I can hear sounds seemingly 20ft away from me!  Voices have incredible clarity and a tangible quality to them. Overall sound signature is on the leaner side with bass impact lagging behind the midrange and treble. It doesn't roll off in the sub bass but the impact isn't as impressive as my solid state amp; Bryston BHA-1. Live performances, acoustic music and vocals especially are just magical with Oblivion. I plan on pairing the newly released Aurorus Audio Borealis headphone which leans dark for me and the pairing should balance out perfectly. Fit and finish are just incredible. Truly a statement piece!

I will post further impressions in the future...


----------



## joseph69

@cskippy 
Congratulations on the Oblivion.
I've been listening to my Citadel since I received it. Very addicting!


----------



## UntilThen

cskippy said:


> Live performances, acoustic music and vocals especially are just magical with Oblivion.



First of, congrats on getting the Oblivion and I think you have the preamp feature which I didn't have. I couldn't agree more with your statement assessment above of the Oblivion. It may not have as much bass impact as my other amp but I actually like how Oblivion sound as it is.

With the lockdown, I've moved my gear home to work from home. I've not heard the HD650 to sound so alive and clear.  I've 2 setups in different rooms. In one room, I've Yggy and Studio Six. In the other room, I've the NAD d1050 with Oblivion but each time I come to the Oblivion setup, my eyes and ears just lit up. Good things can come in cheaper package.


----------



## Roasty

does the Oblivion pair well with the abyss 1266?


----------



## SonicTrance

Roasty said:


> does the Oblivion pair well with the abyss 1266?


@Maxx134 has some impressions in the first post


----------



## nishan99

cskippy said:


> I can hear sounds seemingly 20ft away from me!



Let me guess, by your Verum's ?
If yours has the impedance switch I would love to hear impressions about it with your 650.


----------



## cskippy

nishan99 said:


> Let me guess, by your Verum's ?
> If yours has the impedance switch I would love to hear impressions about it with your 650.


I haven't tried Verum with Oblivion yet as I don't have a balanced cable for it.  HD650 sound fantastic and alive on Oblivion.  Low impedance has an iron first grip on the bass making sure there is no bloat that can happen with high output impedance.  There is an absolute amazing clarity to this pairing in the midrange especially.  I can't harp enough that voices and acoustic music have a realism I just haven't heard before.  High output impedance gives more slam but also brings a bit of mid bass bloat.  It's preferred depending on the music and a great option to have if you're looking for a little more slam and bass.


----------



## Phantaminum

cskippy said:


> I haven't tried Verum with Oblivion yet as I don't have a balanced cable for it.  HD650 sound fantastic and alive on Oblivion.  Low impedance has an iron first grip on the bass making sure there is no bloat that can happen with high output impedance.  There is an absolute amazing clarity to this pairing in the midrange especially.  I can't harp enough that voices and acoustic music have a realism I just haven't heard before.  High output impedance gives more slam but also brings a bit of mid bass bloat.  It's preferred depending on the music and a great option to have if you're looking for a little more slam and bass.



The Verum One and Oblivion is one of my favorite pairings. When you get that balanced cable let us know. I’m using Periapt’s balances cable and it’s well built for the price. You may have to wait a few weeks to get it though.


----------



## Maxx134 (Apr 6, 2020)

Roasty said:


> does the Oblivion pair well with the abyss 1266?


The Abyss has the similar issue and result as the HD650,  where these units benifit from an amp to push them to come alive.

The Oblivion has that unique ability to push a headphone's performance.
The Citadel even more so, from what I heard of it from member  joseph69.

Also,
I have been rolling tubes for the Oblivion, and determined my findings into this post.


----------



## joseph69

As mentioned before, I purchased some NOS RCA 6BG6G's & 6SL7's and I much prefer the stock Russian 6P7S & 6H9C's in my Citadel Custom so far. This doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer another brand, but I'm very happy with the stock tubes and feel no need to roll further.

Listening to the Utopia/Citadel tonight for 4+hrs and heard nothing but pure musical enjoyment. I've never heard an amp that places instruments the way this amp does. The height, width, depth & separation are simply can't be ignored, while the midrange magically draws you in. 

I can clearly hear and concentrate on any instrument/voices I choose due to their excellent placement and airy presentation. I can honestly say that I could easily live with this amp alone, it is that intriguing!


----------



## Slim1970

joseph69 said:


> As mentioned before, I purchased some NOS RCA 6BG6G's & 6SL7's and I much prefer the stock Russian 6P7S & 6H9C's in my Citadel Custom so far. This doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer another brand, but I'm very happy with the stock tubes and feel no need to roll further.
> 
> Listening to the Utopia/Citadel tonight for 4+hrs and heard nothing but pure musical enjoyment. I've never heard an amp that places instruments the way this amp does. The height, width, depth & separation are simply can't be ignored, while the midrange magically draws you in.
> 
> I can clearly hear and concentrate on any instrument/voices I choose due to their excellent placement and airy presentation. I can honestly say that I could easily live with this amp alone, it is that intriguing!


Does Citadel compete with the WA33 in the sound department? I know the WA33 is more powerful. But having more power doesn't necessarily relate to better sound all the time.


----------



## joseph69 (Apr 6, 2020)

Slim1970 said:


> Does Citadel compete with the WA33 in the sound department? I know the WA33 is more powerful. But having more power doesn't necessarily relate to better sound all the time.


Well, too me, they're both to my liking sound wise, but with different presentations so I don't think this would be a fair comparison, but I'm most definitely very happy with both of them sound wise.  I've explained the sound I enjoy from the Utopia/Citadel pairing, so I'll explain the sound I enjoy from the Utopia/WA33 pairing. The WA33 takes the Utopia and totally transforms its sound pretty much beyond belief, at least too my ears. The WA33 adds such solidity, authority, thickness, richness and impact to the sound that it can be a mind blowing listening experience. Power definitely isn't everything, for sure, but sometimes if used responsibly it can be your friend.

I'm no reviewer (obviously) so this is the best I can do trying to explain what I'm hearing that draws me to both of these amplifiers, so I hope I was able to help you a little in answering your question. And keep in mind what I said in my last post;
"I can honestly say that I could easily live with this amp alone, it is that intriguing!" I meant this very much for the headphones I enjoy most, my listening volumes and all types of Jazz being my main Genre's. So fo me, the Citadel check all the boxes!


----------



## Slim1970

joseph69 said:


> Well, too me, they're both to my liking sound wise, but with different presentations so I don't think this would be a fair comparison, but I'm most definitely very happy with both of them sound wise.  I've explained the sound I enjoy from the Utopia/Citadel pairing, so I'll explain the sound I enjoy from the Utopia/WA33 pairing. The WA33 takes the Utopia and totally transforms its sound pretty much beyond belief, at least too my ears. The WA33 adds such solidity, authority, thickness, richness and impact to the sound that it can be a mind blowing listening experience. Power definitely isn't everything, for sure, but sometimes if used responsibly it can be your friend.
> 
> I'm no reviewer (obviously) so this is the best I can do trying to explain what I'm hearing that draws me to both of these amplifiers, so I hope I was able to help you a little in answering your question. And keep in mind what I said in my last post;
> "I can honestly say that I could easily live with this amp alone, it is that intriguing!" I meant this very much for the headphones I enjoy most, my listening volumes and all types of Jazz being my main Genre's. So fo me, the Citadel check all the boxes!


Wow, I would love to get a listen to the WA33. From what you just described, it sounds like it could add those attributes to just about any headphone. Thanks for the reply!


----------



## joseph69

Slim1970 said:


> Wow, I would love to get a listen to the WA33. From what you just described, it sounds like it could add those attributes to just about any headphone. Thanks for the reply!


You're welcome.
Yeah, the WA33 could add those attributes to just about any headphone.
It is something to experience.


----------



## wasupdog (Apr 12, 2020)

The HD6xx sounds so good out of my Citadel I'm not even getting that feeling of missing anything and wanting to take them off.  I do think it sounds better than the Verums.  It has more detail and sounds more energetic.  I'm using them with a generic copper XLR cable on high impedance.

-cuts through the veil
-dark balance of the HD6xx matches the neutral Citadel
-expands the small soundstage width
-tubes help any dynamic driver Sennheiser imo
-one note bass is now two note...lol


----------



## SonicTrance

I just finished an Oblivion. This is the first one with the 1/4" SE add-on.


----------



## Slim1970

SonicTrance said:


> I just finished an Oblivion. This is the first one with the 1/4" SE add-on.


You do incredible work. It looks awesome!


----------



## UntilThen

Good to see you're still churning out Oblivion at times like this. I'm just quietly enjoying Oblivion at home in isolation. Still loving the clarity, details and soundstage presented by this amp.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Good to see you're still churning out Oblivion at times like this. I'm just quietly enjoying Oblivion at home in isolation. Still loving the clarity, details and soundstage presented by this amp.



Great clean set-up with killer gear! Stay safe and happy listening.


----------



## SonicTrance

Slim1970 said:


> You do incredible work. It looks awesome!


Thanks!



UntilThen said:


> Good to see you're still churning out Oblivion at times like this. I'm just quietly enjoying Oblivion at home in isolation. Still loving the clarity, details and soundstage presented by this amp.


Good to hear from you! You've been quiet. I'm glad you're still enjoying your amp =)


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Great clean set-up with killer gear! Stay safe and happy listening.



So is yours Joe. Enjoy.  



SonicTrance said:


> Good to hear from you! You've been quiet. I'm glad you're still enjoying your amp =)



I sure amp enjoying the amp. I blew a few fuses though by connecting too many gear on the same power outlet. I discovered how convenient it is to change the fuse in Oblivion. Fortunately I have a spare pack of fuses.


----------



## Celty

Well, I have a new to me Oblivion on the way (shipped today). I'm looking forward to setting this baby up and seeing how it pairs with the HD6XX and ZMF Auteur.


----------



## SonicTrance

Celty said:


> Well, I have a new to me Oblivion on the way (shipped today). I'm looking forward to setting this baby up and seeing how it pairs with the HD6XX and ZMF Auteur.


Must be the first second hand unit. At least that I've heard of. Does it have impedance switch?


----------



## Celty (Apr 24, 2020)

SonicTrance said:


> Must be the first second hand unit. At least that I've heard of. Does it have impedance switch?


It is the Oblivion that Phantaminum  had, no, it does not have the impedance switch. I hope that it will drive my Auteur well despite this.


----------



## SonicTrance

Celty said:


> It is the Oblivion that Phantaminum  had, no, it does not have the impedance switch. I hope that it will drive my Auteur well despite this.


Most users like the high impedance setting on high Z phones, that's why I asked. But, Oblivion will drive them on low impedance as well.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Most users like the high impedance setting on high Z phones, that's why I asked. But, Oblivion will drive them on low impedance as well.



That's right. Mine is usually on high impedance for my high impedance headphones but I set it to low impedance now and it's driving my new Beyer T1.2 600 ohms headphone with no problem. Sounding good.


----------



## Sound Trooper

UntilThen said:


> That's right. Mine is usually on high impedance for my high impedance headphones but I set it to low impedance now and it's driving my new Beyer T1.2 600 ohms headphone with no problem. Sounding good.


What a beauty! I’m sure it sounds as good as it looks.


----------



## UntilThen

Sound Trooper said:


> What a beauty! I’m sure it sounds as good as it looks.



Hey Sam, did you get the Chord Dave?

It's intriguing that an old classic like the T1.2 can still wow me with it's tone. Pairing beautifully with Oblivion and Studio Six in the first 5 hours of it's life.


----------



## Sound Trooper

UntilThen said:


> Hey Sam, did you get the Chord Dave?
> 
> It's intriguing that an old classic like the T1.2 can still wow me with it's tone. Pairing beautifully with Oblivion and Studio Six in the first 5 hours of it's life.



Yeap.. it was quite an adventure but I got it eventually...


----------



## Celty

UntilThen said:


> That's right. Mine is usually on high impedance for my high impedance headphones but I set it to low impedance now and it's driving my new Beyer T1.2 600 ohms headphone with no problem. Sounding good.


That is encouraging


----------



## joseph69

Celty said:


> That is encouraging


Enjoy!
Seems @Phantaminum has both, the Verites & Auteurs s I'm sure he can comment as well.


----------



## UntilThen

Oblivion is sounding as incredible as it has been on day 1. Pairs well with any headphone I've use with it so far and the T1.2 is sounding absolutely gorgeous with it.


----------



## Phantaminum (Apr 26, 2020)

joseph69 said:


> Enjoy!
> Seems @Phantaminum has both, the Verites & Auteurs s I'm sure he can comment as well.



I personally love them with the Auteurs. It's a lovely pairing with the amp. It gives you a nice dash tube euphony without the bloat, it's fast, it's detailed, clear, and throws a nice wide sound stage. I preferred the Verite off high impedance amplifiers but that's with my chain and ears.

@Celty Post some pics when you get it.

P.S. I already miss it.


----------



## Celty

Phantaminum said:


> I personally love them with the Auteurs. It's a lovely pairing with the amp. It gives you a nice dash tube euphony without the bloat, it's fast, it's detailed, clear, and throws a nice wide sound stage. I preferred the Verite off high impedance amplifiers but that's with my chain and ears.
> 
> @Celty Post some pics when you get it.
> 
> P.S. I already miss it.


Well I was quite surprised to find it was delivered today (Saturday), as it was scheduled to arrive Monday! Thinking I had two days to begin arranging a place for it, I had to scramble a temporary spot together. Given it's generous footprint, that is a tougher challenge than the Monoprice 887 and diminutive SU-8 DAC. I also need a longer XLR cable if I keep the DAC in it's current location, or a longer USB cable if I move it closer to the Oblivion. Since I'm not sure which will work out better in the long run (no pun intended), I ordered both (as well as a power cable for the amp).

Until the cabling arrives I will just have to twiddle my thumbs in anticipation. At least I am able to admire the build quality of the Oblivion, lol.

I also went through the box of tubes that you sent, which include:
2 x CIFTE 6AT6 French Tubes
2 x Mullard 6AT6 Holland Tubes
12 x Siemens 6CJ6 / CV2721 (EL81's) assuming German Tubes
Sweet!

How would you describe the difference between the CIFTE and Mullards?


----------



## Phantaminum

Celty said:


> Well I was quite surprised to find it was delivered today (Saturday), as it was scheduled to arrive Monday! Thinking I had two days to begin arranging a place for it, I had to scramble a temporary spot together. Given it's generous footprint, that is a tougher challenge than the Monoprice 887 and diminutive SU-8 DAC. I also need a longer XLR cable if I keep the DAC in it's current location, or a longer USB cable if I move it closer to the Oblivion. Since I'm not sure which will work out better in the long run (no pun intended), I ordered both (as well as a power cable for the amp).
> 
> Until the cabling arrives I will just have to twiddle my thumbs in anticipation. At least I am able to admire the build quality of the Oblivion, lol.
> 
> ...



 Glad you received it! 

Really, I can’t tell any differences for the driver tube. It’s not like a traditional amp where the tubes do change the sound. In the Oblivion they’re only used for voltage and possibly gain?


----------



## UntilThen

There's enough tubes to last you a lifetime. Enjoy.


----------



## SonicTrance

Phantaminum said:


> Glad you received it!
> 
> Really, I can’t tell any differences for the driver tube. It’s not like a traditional amp where the tubes do change the sound. In the Oblivion they’re only used for voltage and possibly gain?


Yes, tubes do voltage amplification (gain) and FET's supply current. Although, you can say that the tube and top FET are working together to supply current as they're in series with each other.

The input stage in Oblivion is where you would notice most change in sound from tube rolling. This is because the input stage is SE and more prone to pick up any distortion from the tube (the input tube do have a flat load line because of the gyrator plate load, so it's always working in its linear region) than the output stage which is balanced and cancel out most of the distortion.


----------



## nishan99

SonicTrance said:


> Yes, tubes do voltage amplification (gain)



Speaking of gain, will the impedance switch affect it?


----------



## Phantaminum

Speaking of impedance switch, would it ever be possible to have something along the lines of 120/300 out? Or is what being offered the only options available because of the topology?


----------



## Fegefeuer

Good to see an EU option for great tube amps. Since I don't have one yet, I'll watch you guys.


----------



## SonicTrance

nishan99 said:


> Speaking of gain, will the impedance switch affect it?


Yes, high impedance setting will have more gain.



Phantaminum said:


> Speaking of impedance switch, would it ever be possible to have something along the lines of 120/300 out? Or is what being offered the only options available because of the topology?


No, not with the components I use now. I'm sure there are some custom output transformers that have that high output impedance but regular OT's don't. On low impedance my amps have highest output power into a 4 ohm load, and on high impedance into 12 ohm load. 
But, Citadel will have almost 3 times the output power into 300 ohms on high vs low impedance setting, Oblivion will have almost 2 times the power into 300 ohms on high vs low setting.



Fegefeuer said:


> Good to see an EU option for great tube amps. Since I don't have one yet, I'll watch you guys.


Thanks =)


----------



## Celty (Apr 26, 2020)

SonicTrance said:


> No, not with the components I use now. I'm sure there are some custom output transformers that have that high output impedance but regular OT's don't. On low impedance my amps have highest output power into a 4 ohm load, and on high impedance into 12 ohm load.
> But, Citadel will have almost 3 times the output power into 300 ohms on high vs low impedance setting, Oblivion will have almost 2 times the power into 300 ohms on high vs low setting.


Do Oblivions without an impedance switch have the same power at 300 ohms as one with the switch on the low setting?


----------



## SonicTrance

Celty said:


> Do Oblivions without an impedance switch have the same impedance as one with the switch on the low setting?


Yes, low setting is standard as it drives both low and high impedance phones.


----------



## Slim1970

joseph69 said:


> As mentioned before, I purchased some NOS RCA 6BG6G's & 6SL7's and I much prefer the stock Russian 6P7S & 6H9C's in my Citadel Custom so far. This doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer another brand, but I'm very happy with the stock tubes and feel no need to roll further.
> 
> Listening to the Utopia/Citadel tonight for 4+hrs and heard nothing but pure musical enjoyment. I've never heard an amp that places instruments the way this amp does. The height, width, depth & separation are simply can't be ignored, while the midrange magically draws you in.
> 
> I can clearly hear and concentrate on any instrument/voices I choose due to their excellent placement and airy presentation. I can honestly say that I could easily live with this amp alone, it is that intriguing!


@joseph69 I’m just noticing your stock tubes are 6P7S’s. Do they yield more power output or just a different sound or both?


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Yes, high impedance setting will have more gain.



That is true. My ears can detect that.


----------



## joseph69

Slim1970 said:


> @joseph69 I’m just noticing your stock tubes are 6P7S’s. Do they yield more power output or just a different sound or both?


We decided to use the 6P7S (EU) 6BG6 (US) due to their size proportions in comparison to the power transformer cover instead of using the smaller EL36 tube. As far as "yielding more power output or just a different sound" I don't believe so? @SonicTrance never mentioned anything having to do with them having more power than the EL36, it was purely for aesthetics.


----------



## SonicTrance

joseph69 said:


> We decided to use the 6P7S (EU) 6BG6 (US) due to their size proportions in comparison to the power transformer cover instead of using the smaller EL36 tube. As far as "yielding more power output or just a different sound" I don't believe so? @SonicTrance never mentioned anything having to do with them having more power than the EL36, it was purely for aesthetics.


The available voltage swing will be slightly higher with the 6P7S than with the 6P31S which will yield a bit more power into high Z headphones. But, the difference is negligible. Like Joseph says, the 6P7S just looks nicer on the silver Citadel =)


----------



## Slim1970

joseph69 said:


> We decided to use the 6P7S (EU) 6BG6 (US) due to their size proportions in comparison to the power transformer cover instead of using the smaller EL36 tube. As far as "yielding more power output or just a different sound" I don't believe so? @SonicTrance never mentioned anything having to do with them having more power than the EL36, it was purely for aesthetics.


Got it, thanks for the response. The bigger tubes does look sweet on your amp!


----------



## Slim1970

SonicTrance said:


> The available voltage swing will be slightly higher with the 6P7S than with the 6P31S which will yield a bit more power into high Z headphones. But, the difference is negligible. Like Joseph says, the 6P7S just looks nicer on the silver Citadel =)


Thanks for clearing that up @SonicTrance. So there is a slight benefit to using the bigger tubes, nice.


----------



## joseph69

Slim1970 said:


> Got it, thanks for the response. The bigger tubes does look sweet on your amp!


Thanks.
As soon as I was offered to use them instead of the EL36, I opted for them immediately.


----------



## elChefe

Well I decided to join the Oblivion club.. and I’m sure glad I did. The pairing with the Yggy A2 uni and lcd4 is pure magic. The attack of transients snap out of a pitch black background combined with the holographic soundstage with deep layering and instrument separation present music on the lcd4 like no other amp Iv tried before. Just set it up last night, so I need to spend more time with it, but I’m very impressed so far.


----------



## UntilThen

elChefe said:


> Well I decided to join the Oblivion club.. and I’m sure glad I did. The pairing with the Yggy A2 uni and lcd4 is pure magic.



I don't even get alerts to this thread anymore so it's right on cue that I should come on to see your setup because I've been listening to Yggy A1 > Oblivion > LCD-3f since yesterday and it's really good.  

First time I'm listening to LCD-3f with Oblivion and it's magic.


----------



## UntilThen

Looks like Sonic has put a blue light next to the power switch.


----------



## mordy

I like to read the Oblivion thread but I have the same problem of not getting notifications - must be the name of the thread lol.....


----------



## elChefe

Has anyone tried rolling the input tubes? I have the 6av6 in mine and I saw some cheap nos pairs floating around. Might give it a try. Curious to see how a pair of GE or RCA 6av6 would sound.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> I like to read the Oblivion thread but I have the same problem of not getting notifications - must be the name of the thread lol.....



Thread that goes into oblivion.   but I'm not getting notifications from some of the other threads too.


----------



## UntilThen

elChefe said:


> Has anyone tried rolling the input tubes? I have the 6av6 in mine and I saw some cheap nos pairs floating around. Might give it a try. Curious to see how a pair of GE or RCA 6av6 would sound.



Alas my input tube has gone missing and the seller has reimbursed me. Sonic did say that tubes have minimal changes. Some but not much.

I rather roll headphones into the Oblivion. Will be trying a HiFiMan Arya once the balance cable comes and later a Audeze LCD-X.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Thread that goes into oblivion.   but I'm not getting notifications from some of the other threads too.


In the past I cancelled notifications and then reinstated them - seemed to help for a while, but then lost notifications again. Possibly a bug in the system.....


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Looks like Sonic has put a blue light next to the power switch.


It must be the camera. I've only used white LEDs


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> Thread that goes into oblivion.   but I'm not getting notifications from some of the other threads too.


At the bottom of your subscribed thread (now watched) page check the 'Select all' box then click 'With selected' and choose 'Enable email notifications' from the drop down window, then click 'Go'. This has worked for me in the past many times when I wasn't receiving email notifications.


----------



## SonicTrance

This is the first Oblivion with "Citadel layout". It also has a switchable "power" input which bypasses the volume pot.


----------



## elChefe

SonicTrance said:


> This is the first Oblivion with "Citadel layout". It also has a switchable "power" input which bypasses the volume pot.


Wow looks great! I love the layout! I don’t know which I like better, is this going to be how you are going to be laying out the oblivion from now on?


----------



## SonicTrance

elChefe said:


> Wow looks great! I love the layout! I don’t know which I like better, is this going to be how you are going to be laying out the oblivion from now on?


Thanks! 
This was the first one with this layout (on request). I needed to make sure it worked out as the input tube is sensitive to placement. But it worked out great and it's just as quiet as the other design.

I figured I'd let the customers choose what layout they want.


----------



## DecentLevi

Phantaminum said:


> I personally love them with the Auteurs. It's a lovely pairing with the amp. It gives you a nice dash tube euphony without the bloat, it's fast, it's detailed, clear, and throws a nice wide sound stage. I preferred the Verite off high impedance amplifiers but that's with my chain and ears.
> 
> @Celty Post some pics when you get it.
> 
> P.S. I already miss it.


From one of the photos Celty quoted that I think were yours, it seems I spotted a Glenn OTL amp next to the Oblivion you were selling. If so, I'm curious why you would sell it and keep the Glenn amp?


SonicTrance said:


> Yes, tubes do voltage amplification (gain) and FET's supply current. Although, you can say that the tube and top FET are working together to supply current as they're in series with each other.
> 
> The input stage in Oblivion is where you would notice most change in sound from tube rolling. This is because the input stage is SE and more prone to pick up any distortion from the tube (the input tube do have a flat load line because of the gyrator plate load, so it's always working in its linear region) than the output stage which is balanced and cancel out most of the distortion.


Another noob question for your amps - which side of the amp do you consider input and output tubes? I'm used to the terminology "power" for rear tubes and "driver" for front tubes.


----------



## Phantaminum

DecentLevi said:


> From one of the photos Celty quoted that I think were yours, it seems I spotted a Glenn OTL amp next to the Oblivion you were selling. If so, I'm curious why you would sell it and keep the Glenn amp?
> 
> Another noob question for your amps - which side of the amp do you consider input and output tubes? I'm used to the terminology "power" for rear tubes and "driver" for front tubes.



The Glenn amp was sold prior to selling the Oblivion amp. 

I've been going through a long gear cycling phase. Trying out different amp topologies, synergies with equipment, and headphones. Trying to find that almost perfect mix of qualities you look for in sound which is different for every person. This isn't to say that either the Oblivion or Glenn are bad amps. Far from it. After listening to several amps in the $1k - $4k bracket, I believe the GOTL and Oblivion are knock out amps in their price range. 

If you're looking at the Oblivion like the Glenn OTL, i'd say that the 6AT6 tubes (without the caps) would be considered the driver tubes and the EL81 (with the caps) would be considered the power tubes.


----------



## DecentLevi

OK so the driver / input tubes make the biggest sonic difference with the Ultrasonic amps if I've got it right.
Do you now prefer the Apex Teton or Eddie Current amps best?


----------



## Phantaminum

DecentLevi said:


> OK so the driver / input tubes make the biggest sonic difference with the Ultrasonic amps if I've got it right.
> Do you now prefer the Apex Teton or Eddie Current amps best?



There isn't much of a change when it comes to swapping driver tubes. The CIFTE 6AT6 sound like the Mullard 6AT6 which sound like the RCA 6AT6. If there's a difference I personally can't hear it. What you get is an amp that has great transients, wide sound stage, added depth (instruments don't sound flat), a bit of that tube euphony/sweetness, speed, and clarity.

You can PM me if you have any questions on either of those amps. I don't want to clutter up Tomas' thread with other amp talk.


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> Another noob question for your amps - which side of the amp do you consider input and output tubes? I'm used to the terminology "power" for rear tubes and "driver" for front tubes.


Like @Phantaminum says, the 6AT6, or 6AV6, depending on configuration are the input tubes and the EL81's are the output/power tubes in Oblivion. I call the 6AT6 "input" tubes rather than "driver" tubes because a driver tube drives the output tube grid. In my amps the input tube doesn't drive anything, it only does voltage amplification (gain). The grid drivers drives the output/power tube grid. The grid drivers are CCS loaded FET source followers.
The EL81's you can call output or power tubes as the amps output power is totally dependent on how I choose to bias the output tubes.


----------



## Maxx134 (May 19, 2020)

SonicTrance said:


> The input stage in Oblivion is where you would notice most change in sound from tube rolling. This is because the input stage is SE and more prone to pick up any distortion from the tube (the input tube do have a flat load line because of the gyrator plate load, so it's always working in its linear region) than the output stage which is balanced and cancel out most of the distortion


I was able to detect some difference but not in usual ways and they all had same high resolve.



SonicTrance said:


> Like @Phantaminum says, the 6AT6, or 6AV6, depending on configuration are the input tubes


From the data sheets, it looks like they should be interchangable in the Oblivion, correct?




elChefe said:


> Has anyone tried rolling the input tubes? I have the 6av6 in mine and I saw some cheap nos pairs floating around. Might give it a try. Curious to see how a pair of GE or RCA 6av6 would sound.


Yes you should try rolling as they are low price, and even if the differences are in the last 5% ( like cables), it would be interesting to see if you can detect any.




Celty said:


> 2 x Mullard 6AT6 Holland Tubes


Those are my favorites.
I will post more about my tiny difference choices.




DecentLevi said:


> Do you now prefer the Apex Teton or Eddie Current amps best?


Both amp companies use oddities.
The Teton with odd OTL tube configuration using ony one(!) output tube for both sides(?!).
Then you have the EC with odd usage of super tiny tiny driver tubes.

Apologies for nocking on them.
It's not that they aren't great amps...
Just why have choices that would also be considered flaws?

Instead of those two, I personally would choose a way more traditional tube choice & configuration like Glenn or Cayin, and there's nothing that one amp has over another in resolution, only tube sound.

But still, all of them are still based upon old school topology, (dressed up with modern heater circuits.)

This thread has proven that "old-school" topology is sort of a concession of design, which will in turn, rely heavily on parts quality.
Literally almost all of the best amps  have already been mentioned in this thread in subjective or  direct comparisons.

So none are (true) hybrid, and, most importantly, none are using lower cost tubes like the Oblivion/Citadel.


----------



## SonicTrance

Maxx134 said:


> From the data sheets, it looks like they should be interchangable in the Oblivion, correct?


No because I use fixed grid bias. The 6AT6 runs at -2 Vg and 6AV6 at -1.5Vg. If you run a 6AV6 in a 6AT6 amp it will be very non-linear and if you run a 6AT6 in a 6AV6 amp it will pull too much current.


----------



## Maxx134

SonicTrance said:


> No because I use fixed grid bias. The 6AT6 runs at -2 Vg and 6AV6 at -1.5Vg. If you run a 6AV6 in a 6AT6 amp it will be very non-linear and if you run a 6AT6 in a 6AV6 amp it will pull too much current.


Ooo so good to know.


----------



## Phantaminum (May 19, 2020)

Maxx134 said:


> I was able to detect some difference but not in usual ways and they all had same high resolve.
> 
> 
> From the data sheets, it looks like they should be interchangable in the Oblivion, correct?
> ...



I wouldn't consider it flaws but trade-offs.

The Teton works really well with one output tube for both sides. It's for high impedance headphones and it has one of the clearest sound, widest sound stage, tallest images, with some of the best separation, and resolve. The Teton is a very forward amp and for people looking for a laid back sound stage that's also holographic, well you might want to look elsewhere.

Glenn's amps are fantastic for its price. Very holographic, throws up big images, and it's bombastic when it comes to its presentation. You can also roll tubes to fit the tone/timbre you'd like. On the other hand, it needs a more careful interaction when compared to other amps. I've blown expensive tubes (I was drunk) and one of my headphone drivers with it (a tube that was working before ate it). You have to be very picky with the tubes as most have a background hiss or noise which was picked up because of my ceiling fan. The Teton doesn't have this issue or the EC unless it's a very crap tube. The driver tube size also don't mean anything. Whether small or big, again the implementation is what matters.

The Oblivion is a great amp and pairs especially well with the Auteurs, Ananda, and Verum One.


----------



## Maxx134

Phantaminum said:


> I wouldn't consider it flaws but trade-offs


Yes I would agree fully as there is different ways to reach endgame.

Most of those  amps still achieve a top level, making it a preference choice, so a personal one.

Debating on which is the best, 
is like debating on cable selections.
 Depending on the headphones, they all fall within that last 5 to 10% of quality attainable.

I personally am very happy with the Oblivion, due to the clarity and soundstage, which I feel is it's strength.

Other amps have other strengths, like bass punch, or tube euphorics, but like you said it, it's all trade-offs for what you want.

Plus, matching your headphones and source gear can easily add and/or compensate to the end result.
As long as the end result is enjoyment.

So in the end, I feel these points  mentioned are still important to know, when your making your own choices.


----------



## UntilThen

Clarity and soundstage is evident here in this setup. Listening to 'Roll The Seven Twice' by Tangerine Dream, Arya sounds amazing through Oblivion.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Clarity and soundstage is evident here in this setup. Listening to 'Roll The Seven Twice' by Tangerine Dream, Arya sounds amazing through Oblivion.



Ha.. another one of my old favourites lol!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm listening to the original motion picture soundtrack - 1917 by Thomas Newman - 'Up The Down Trench'.

With the Audeze LCD-X through Oblivion with low impedance - it's wicked bass.


----------



## elChefe

Phantaminum said:


> I've blown expensive tubes (I was drunk) and one of my headphone drivers with it (a tube that was working before ate it).


What caused the headphone driver to blow? One of the tubes blew and that’s what caused damage to the driver? I remember seeing somewhere a tube blow and taking out headphones is something that can easily happen with OTL amps.. why is that?


----------



## mordy

A defective tube may emit an explosive pop that blows out the headphone driver. It is not a common thing, but it could happen. The best policy is always to turn on your system for a couple of minutes and then plug in cheap headphones to make sure everything is OK. 
It is cumbersome, but much better than having all the aggravation and spending a lot of money fixing your headphones.


----------



## elChefe

That’s a pretty good idea. Iv been looking at a couple OTL amps but after reading about the possibility of taking out the headphones, It made me a bit uneasy.. but I guess if I take precautions, it isn’t a common occurrence. One of the amps I was looking at was a 300B otl amp, but Iv never seen anyone else use a 300B in an otl configuration.. any reason as to why they aren’t commonly used? I think a nice otl would compliment the oblivion nicely.


----------



## SonicTrance

elChefe said:


> That’s a pretty good idea. Iv been looking at a couple OTL amps but after reading about the possibility of taking out the headphones, It made me a bit uneasy.. but I guess if I take precautions, it isn’t a common occurrence. One of the amps I was looking at was a 300B otl amp, but Iv never seen anyone else use a 300B in an otl configuration.. any reason as to why they aren’t commonly used? I think a nice otl would compliment the oblivion nicely.


The 300B is not suited for OTL use as the internal resistance is too high. They're also DHT tubes that requires separate regulated DC filament supplies, so paralleling a bunch of them to get the impedance down would be a real hassle (and expensive).


----------



## BzzzzzT

UntilThen said:


> Clarity and soundstage is evident here in this setup. Listening to 'Roll The Seven Twice' by Tangerine Dream, Arya sounds amazing through Oblivion.



I can't wait to get my amp in October and hear my Arya's on it. I'm glad to hear yours sound good!


----------



## BzzzzzT

They can definitely fry headphones if a tube shorts in some circumstances. There is no output transformer protecting your cans, just a resistor and a capacitor in most cases.



elChefe said:


> That’s a pretty good idea. Iv been looking at a couple OTL amps but after reading about the possibility of taking out the headphones, It made me a bit uneasy.. but I guess if I take precautions, it isn’t a common occurrence. One of the amps I was looking at was a 300B otl amp, but Iv never seen anyone else use a 300B in an otl configuration.. any reason as to why they aren’t commonly used? I think a nice otl would compliment the oblivion nicely.


----------



## UntilThen

BzzzzzT said:


> I can't wait to get my amp in October and hear my Arya's on it. I'm glad to hear yours sound good!



October? Sonic must have quite a few amps to make.

I'm very pleased with how the planars (Arya, LCD-X and LCD-3f) sound with Oblivion.


----------



## BzzzzzT

UntilThen said:


> October? Sonic must have quite a few amps to make.
> 
> I'm very pleased with how the planars (Arya, LCD-X and LCD-3f) sound with Oblivion.



The wait did not surprise me. It's quite a bit of work to make an amp. I have built a couple of tube amps, and it takes quite a bit of time to lay everything out, solder and splice wire etc. I really love this circuit! Tomas and MrCurwen have really created a brilliant design and amp IMO. I am still wrapping my head around this awesome design!


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> October? Sonic must have quite a few amps to make.


I was thinking the same thing. October?
That's some good lead time for Tomas. Good for him!


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> October? Sonic must have quite a few amps to make.
> 
> I'm very pleased with how the planars (Arya, LCD-X and LCD-3f) sound with Oblivion.



This is great to see. I say the more  custom amp builders the better. Getting to be lots of great custom amp options out there.


----------



## SonicTrance

joseph69 said:


> I was thinking the same thing. October?
> That's some good lead time for Tomas. Good for him!


Thanks! Yes, I have work until the end of the year if I build one per month. I'm a little ahead of schedule though so it's all good! =)


----------



## joseph69

SonicTrance said:


> Thanks! Yes, I have work until the end of the year if I build one per month. I'm a little ahead of schedule though so it's all good! =)


You're welcome.
 It's your own doing, though, due to your amplifiers price/performance ratio, aesthetics & sound qualities. 
The Citadel (in my case) has just been so synergistic with my currently owned headphones that I couldn't ask for better for my tastes in sound preference. I could easily live with the Citadel being my only amplifier. Big congratulations for having work 'til the end of the year.


----------



## elChefe

joseph69 said:


> You're welcome.
> It's your own doing, though, due to your amplifiers price/performance ratio, aesthetics & sound qualities.
> The Citadel (in my case) has just been so synergistic with my currently owned headphones that I couldn't ask for better for my tastes in sound preference. I could easily live with the Citadel being my only amplifier. Big congratulations for having work 'til the end of the year.


I fully agree. I could also live with just the oblivion and be perfectly happy. It outperforms so many other amplifiers in a lot of categories, even at higher price points. I find it to be a great pairing with planars.. it provides the solid state slam and extension in the bottom end with tube sweetness and clarity in the mids and top end, with amazing transient speed and detail. The speed at which snare and kick drums, claps and snaps appear out of the pitch black is really magical. Space around instruments layered in the stage presentation leads to a very life like experience while listening. It’s really one of the best hybrid amplifiers Iv tried.

Congrats on the orders coming in Sonic! I really hope meets can start back up soon, I really want to share my oblivion with others.


----------



## SonicTrance

elChefe said:


> I fully agree. I could also live with just the oblivion and be perfectly happy. It outperforms so many other amplifiers in a lot of categories, even at higher price points. I find it to be a great pairing with planars.. it provides the solid state slam and extension in the bottom end with tube sweetness and clarity in the mids and top end, with amazing transient speed and detail. The speed at which snare and kick drums, claps and snaps appear out of the pitch black is really magical. Space around instruments layered in the stage presentation leads to a very life like experience while listening. It’s really one of the best hybrid amplifiers Iv tried.
> 
> Congrats on the orders coming in Sonic! I really hope meets can start back up soon, I really want to share my oblivion with others.


I'm glad you're enjoying your Oblivion! I really appreciate the kind words!


----------



## UntilThen

elChefe said:


> I fully agree. I could also live with just the oblivion and be perfectly happy. It outperforms so many other amplifiers in a lot of categories, even at higher price points. I find it to be a great pairing with planars.. it provides the solid state slam and extension in the bottom end with tube sweetness and clarity in the mids and top end, with amazing transient speed and detail. The speed at which snare and kick drums, claps and snaps appear out of the pitch black is really magical. Space around instruments layered in the stage presentation leads to a very life like experience while listening. It’s really one of the best hybrid amplifiers Iv tried.
> 
> Congrats on the orders coming in Sonic! I really hope meets can start back up soon, I really want to share my oblivion with others.



I believe you have the Audio-Gd Master 9 amp. Can you share your impressions of Oblivion vs Master 9.


----------



## elChefe (May 30, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> I believe you have the Audio-Gd Master 9 amp. Can you share your impressions of Oblivion vs Master 9.


I have the HE9, but is similar to the master9. Going back and forth, both out of the Yggy a2 uni, the thing that stands out on the HE9 is the detail and smoothness of the presentation. While the liveliness and snap stands out with the oblivion. Having full built in power regeneration gives the blackest of black background which allows the smallest details to present themselves. The oblivion presents a bit more texture to the vocals and a more holographic stage with more snap to instruments. The HE9 is much smoother in the vocals, and slower in the transient response. I would consider the oblivion a more engaging, lively listen, while the HE9 to be a more detailed, smoother but layed back presentation of the music. Out of the two, I reach for the oblivion more, but the HE9 is certainly not a bad amplifier, it’s just a different flavor.. very different animals. I think I paid around $3k for the HE9, and it’s extremely impressive that the oblivion can compete at almost half the price.I think the two amps are a good complement to each other depending on what mood I’m in... and why pick when you can have both! I like me some variety!

Edit: Also power.. the HE9 is a monster. With the lcd4, which are demanding, it seems like there is endless volume and it always keeps its composure. But with oblivion I can still comfortably listen at the 12-1oclock position and not feel like it’s lacking at all.


----------



## UntilThen

@elChefe  what in jebus is that tube amp?


----------



## elChefe

UntilThen said:


> @elChefe  what in jebus is that tube amp?


Thats the Decware Torii Jr lol


----------



## baronbeehive

elChefe said:


> Thats the Decware Torii Jr lol



I was looking at Decware, and the Tori a while back when I was trying to find a speaker and headphone amp combined. Could you give some quick impressions vis a vis the Oblivion?


----------



## elChefe

baronbeehive said:


> I was looking at Decware, and the Tori a while back when I was trying to find a speaker and headphone amp combined. Could you give some quick impressions vis a vis the Oblivion?


Iv actually been using my Oblivion to power a few different pairs of speakers since I have the speaker taps on mine. The Torii jr has around 20watts in stock configuration, but how I have it set up right now I’m getting around 6. And the speakers I have on it are pretty inefficient. The torii drivers them a little better bc of its increased power compared to the oblivion. I would say the oblivion gives a sweet, yet precise presentation while the torii jr has a more euphoric SET sound while remaining neutral and well extended. I’m currently hunted for a set of high efficiency, full range set of speakers. Leaning towards a set of open baffles. When I get a the new speakers in, I’ll be able to give better impressions.. the speakers I have at the moment aren’t best suited for flea power.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hey I thought I'd ask here since it appears there are some sort of shock absorption feet under the Ultrasonic amps. Does anyone have any recommendations of shock absorption feet that they have known to yield sonic improvements? I'm looking for two sets of four, for both my upcoming first CD transport and for another tube amp. And hopefully a reasonable cost.


----------



## baronbeehive

DecentLevi said:


> Hey I thought I'd ask here since it appears there are some sort of shock absorption feet under the Ultrasonic amps. Does anyone have any recommendations of shock absorption feet that they have known to yield sonic improvements? I'm looking for two sets of four, for both my upcoming first CD transport and for another tube amp. And hopefully a reasonable cost.



I use the same looking ones as Sonic, not sure if they're identical, these are the ones and are adjustable. But they're not isolating as they don't come with felt pads but screw into the chassis:

https://www.click4av.uk/audio-isolation/isofee02-turntable-speaker-spikes/

These do come with felt pads but are slightly different:

http://oregondv.com/

https://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/c...acor-sps-20-sc-loudspeaker-spikes-chrome.html

I think there's some debate about whether you should have solid feet to transmit sound fully or padded feet to deaden vibration.


----------



## baronbeehive

... I don't really see how mounts such as spikes could affect sound much, either you have soft, mounts such as rubber, in which case you could put in a washer, or you have solid mounts such as brass.


----------



## DecentLevi

Awesome, thanks. So I take it the vibration absorption is achieved via sharp point of the cone where it meets the other section of the metal by allow for minor movement between the two?




And what about this type, does anyone know if this type is better / worse, or does it depend on the component it's used to isolate and whether or not it's steel vs. aluminum? Maybe @UntilThen or @mordy knows...


----------



## Maxx134 (Jun 4, 2020)

Hi so I have been with the Oblivion a long time and also had another tube amp "side by side" with it.

A cary 300sei, with slyvania drivers & Western Electric 300b output tubes(!).

It's performance of sound, is at the top, being one of the best in unbeaten clarity, beauty, holography & slightly euphoric.
Not the usual heavy or thick sounding types like some 300b amps.
Very clear, sweet & holographic, with Just a touch of thickness on bottom which most tube amps have

So I wanted the Oblivion to  have some of that liquid euphonic nature of the Cary amp.
In other words, try to find a tube to give the Oblivion some "euphoric" flavor.

That was a hard thing to do, since the Oblivion is designed to be ideally as  transparent as possible, but since the driver stage is single ended, there was some effect..
The observation is minimal, and probably not always observable under normal listening conditions.

In other words, from this point on, we will be talking of those last 8% differences that fall into the realm of critical listening, with the need of resolving headphones that have at least the level of resolve of an HD800..
That means:
**Raal ribbon
**Hifiman (Susvara, HEKV2 or SE)
**Abyss (all versions)
**Focal (Utopia and similar levels)
**Denon9200(not lower)
*Any other headphones that meet this level resolve.

It was hard, because the driver tubes only varied slightly in liviness, not frequency response, so getting a tube to introduce anything was hard.
The few I tried: stock seimens, Sylvania, Philco, tung-sol, zenith, mullard.
All from ebay:




My normal best choice here was philco, then Tung-sol, until I got the mullards.

So after rolling these different driver tubes, I finally found a tube that gave me a touch of euphoric majic in driver section.
It was the Mullard 6AT6..



Then I rolled output tubes...
For this test, I had to pull out my Hd800 for critical listening, because as stated before, the changes were minimal.
But here especially, the changes were even more extremely minimal, and so difficult to put in words.

It took longer for the mind to get a grip on any type feeling of change at first, because the normal aspects of tube rolling are not there.
The signature,  flavor, & Frequency Response are NOT affected...

At first, the output tubes are  undetectable, untill you know what to look for.

There was a slight observable to be noticed, but only in slight image depth, and even more slightly difference in liveliness feeling.

So the stock tubes seimens el81, felt a bit more grand, refined & touch laid back to me.

Then I bought some others.
Tung-sol, mullard, Tesla and, long story short,
my fav tubes became mullard el81(touch lively and closer), but were superceded by the Tesla el81, which were really the most solid, strong and loud sounding/feeling. (remember this is a minimal observance but I have yet to verify if they're actually louder).

I cannot stress me preferring the Tesla being really great tubes (over the few others I tried), but that difference would still fall in the category of "preference".
The resolve was not affected in tube rolling.
Only the tiny difference of liveliness & distance, (wich could actually be a condition of tube age or burn in).

Remember, this area is hardest to point out any differences,
So you really can't go wrong with any of the output tubes, but we talking that final last detail differences of 5%, which lies just above the realm of cable differences.

IMO, Three best tubes which bring a different aspect to the table:
1-Siemens (stock) to me is grand & very refined spacious feeling.
2-Mullard is lively, & closer.
3-Tesla was my most impressive tube, as it just sounded powerful, very solid, true to source, and alive.
Very accurate amazing tube.
BUT...


Then I then found these!:


Mazda 6dr6 (curved glass bottle!)



These are now my current favorites.
Why?
Although this is still a preference choice, it comes with a compromise.

Positives:
*Soundstage a bit further spaced, (like the stock seimens, yet not laid back).

*Instruments refinedness is between the seimens, & slight more involving Tesla sound.

*Details retain seimens  delicacy, with as good liviness & naturalness of the Tesla.
Solidity of Tesla is still unmatched though.

*Last yet biggest benifit IMO, is that these tubes run less hot than all the rest.
*They don't glow as burning bright, but instead a nice glow.
Pic
*They are slightly wider & curved glass(nice!), and a little bit shorter, if that matters.

Negatives:
Volume output is actually seems a tiny bit less than the strongest (Tesla).
I had to turn up the dial about 5mm more to get similar level.

According to datasheet, these Mazda 6dr6 have the same mµ5 as the EL81's, so I'm guessing they need burn in(NOS), and that the Telsa may be louder than all the rest, which would  explain it's sonic impressions.
I still have to check and compare.

Last negative is that they are very very rare, so hard to come by.
I bought mine here*
(Link coming)
staff@bel-tubes.co.uk
Last I checked, they have six pieces left, and I have four extra pieces myself to sell, if anyone in US is interested.
They are definitely prettier to me.

Here are some pics:




Below is a side by side comparison, with Tesla el81 on the left, and Mazda 6dr6 on the right.





That's it.
My very slightly detectable tube roll review.
I am finally  feeling it's has nice touch of    "majic" (euphoric) feeling, like the Cary amp, while being more accurate (reference sounding)..

Another thing that could explain things, is that the whole review can fall into the area of tube age or burn in...


----------



## mordy

Do you think these tubes are the same as the Mazda?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/303581682862


----------



## elChefe

Nice impressions! I’m def going to try these! I was looking at the NOS GE’s on eBay and was curious as to how they would sound, though my oblivion runs 6av6 instead of the 6at6. I will def try the 6dr6’s though


----------



## baronbeehive

mordy said:


> Do you think these tubes are the same as the Mazda?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/303581682862
> 
> Hmm, they certainly look similar, do they have any markings indicating factory?


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> ...
> 
> Then I then found these!:
> 
> ...



You''ve done a really admirable job of detecting those small differences that we see at this level!

I believe you are right in your observations. The Mazda 12Ax7 I use in my APPJ is exactly how you describe, spaced out soundstage, and delicacy is also how I would describe the sound. Then there is the solidity of the Tesla, again you are dead right.

I realise we are talking about different amps but the general signature of tube types seems to hold, and backs up your observations nicely.


----------



## mordy (Jun 4, 2020)

I do not know for sure, but it seems very probable that French Mazda Belvu = CIFTE .


----------



## Maxx134

elChefe said:


> Nice impressions! I’m def going to try these! I was looking at the NOS GE’s on eBay and was curious as to how they would sound, though my oblivion runs 6av6 instead of the 6at6. I will def try the 6dr6’s though


The mullard 6av6 are even easier to find.
I have one extra of those if your looking.




mordy said:


> Do you think these tubes are the same as the Mazda?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/303581682862


Yes



baronbeehive said:


> I realise we are talking about different amps but the general signature of tube types seems to hold, and backs up your observations nicely


I noticed this among all the tube amps I used..
 that the brand name/manufacturer always have same sound characteristics (to a certain degree)  no matter what model tube.


----------



## Maxx134

In the old days, every manufacturer had their own secret recipe process & materials for the tubes, that they made, and did not disclose to other companies due to competition..
Sadly, all of this information disappeared with the companies as they went out of business for the transistor era..


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Awesome, thanks. So I take it the vibration absorption is achieved via sharp point of the cone where it meets the other section of the metal by allow for minor movement between the two?



I don't know about vibration absorption but the spike feet allows you to adjust for levelness. That's what I find it useful for.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> I don't know about vibration absorption but the spike feet allows you to adjust for levelness. That's what I find it useful for.


Same for my turntable platform.


----------



## mordy

DecentLevi said:


> Awesome, thanks. So I take it the vibration absorption is achieved via sharp point of the cone where it meets the other section of the metal by allow for minor movement between the two?
> 
> And what about this type, does anyone know if this type is better / worse, or does it depend on the component it's used to isolate and whether or not it's steel vs. aluminum? Maybe @UntilThen or @mordy knows...


Back in the 80's spikes were a big thing. At one point I bought a pair of 5' tall Canadian made Mirage M-3si floorstanding speakers (since sold). They were made of ash wood and weighed 135 lbs each.



These speakers came with the same type of spikes as the gold colored one in your post. The disc on the bottom is to prevent floor damage from the tip of the cone. I have a wood floor in my listening room/office and I will never forget the difference attaching those spikes (a two man job) and then listening. The music snapped into focus and became much clearer, akin to putting on your glasses to read something (if you need glasses for that).
All equipment vibrates to some degree and the theory was to channel the vibrations away into the floor. I have an old very heavy metal equipment rack (Standesign) that I use those feet with now.
I also bought cones to put under CD players etc. However, with today's more modern designs I don't see the need for cones because the designers have figured out (more or less) how to undo the effect of vibrations in your equipment. Adding these cones did not seem to improve the sound for me on the tube amps I have. However one more benefit, in addition to leveling which was not mentioned is that taller feet could improve the ventilation of the amp.
There are many different kinds of feet available with all kinds of different rubber/metal combination and springs. I think Chrisdrop had a problem that was solved with feet with built in springs.
In sum I would say not to bother unless you have a special problem and then it is trial and error. The Audio Advisor has a plethora of different feet available for sale.


----------



## baronbeehive

mordy said:


> These speakers came with the same type of spikes as the gold colored one in your post. The disc on the bottom is to prevent floor damage from the tip of the cone. I have a wood floor in my listening room/office and I will never forget the difference attaching those spikes (a two man job) and then listening. The music snapped into focus and became much clearer, akin to putting on your glasses to read something (if you need glasses for that).



That's interesting!

I've wondered about this, so as I have speakers on mounts directly onto a carpet, that would negate the effect of spikes because the carpet would absorb the music, ie. vibrations.., as well as some of the music dynamics. Going by that it would be better to have hard feet rather than, say rubber feet?


----------



## mordy

baronbeehive said:


> That's interesting!
> 
> I've wondered about this, so as I have speakers on mounts directly onto a carpet, that would negate the effect of spikes because the carpet would absorb the music, ie. vibrations.., as well as some of the music dynamics. Going by that it would be better to have hard feet rather than, say rubber feet?


I did not try speaker spikes on carpet, but I remember reading that some people would not use the disks under the cones and let the spikes pierce the carpet. When I used the spikes on hardwood I put the disks underneath since I did not want to make holes in the wood, and there still was a good effect.
Re your question regarding hard feet or rubber feet I am sure that other people have the knowledge and can answer you.


----------



## baronbeehive

mordy said:


> I did not try speaker spikes on carpet, but I remember reading that some people would not use the disks under the cones and let the spikes pierce the carpet. When I used the spikes on hardwood I put the disks underneath since I did not want to make holes in the wood, and there still was a good effect.
> Re your question regarding hard feet or rubber feet I am sure that other people have the knowledge and can answer you.



Thanks!

It is something I have been puzzled about for a long time. I don't want to hog the thread, but I would just say that years ago when I was learning the Spanish guitar we used to play in a bare room with floorboards and the effect was dramatically good for the acoustic guitar. However this would not apply to listening to music on a hifi system because there were all sorts of reflections off the floors and wall which is why carpets can deaden some of this. I'm still a bit confused about this because usually concert halls also have bare floors, then again some concert halls have terrible acoustics. I suppose the answer is some sort of digital software noise cancellation system.


----------



## DecentLevi

baronbeehive said:


> That's interesting!
> 
> I've wondered about this, so as I have speakers on mounts directly onto a carpet, that would negate the effect of spikes because the carpet would absorb the music, ie. vibrations.., as well as some of the music dynamics. Going by that it would be better to have hard feet rather than, say rubber feet?


Though I'm not the expert on speaker acoustics and vibration treatments, I would assume the use of a speaker mount (speaker stand?) would negate the need for an isolation cone with pike that you were mentioning like this:




As far as I can tell these are only useful to level out the tilt on devices and can help acoustics of speakers by raising them off the floor a little vs. the speaker box placed directly on something, but not sure if the area where the pike meets the disc has an absorption / dampening properties? If your speaker stand is on carpet I would assume hard or soft bottom of stand wouldn't make any difference, otherwise on a hard surface probably a rubber bottom of it would absorb some frequencies.



baronbeehive said:


> It is something I have been puzzled about for a long time. I don't want to hog the thread, but I would just say that years ago when I was learning the Spanish guitar we used to play in a bare room with floorboards and the effect was dramatically good for the acoustic guitar. However this would not apply to listening to music on a hifi system because there were all sorts of reflections off the floors and wall which is why carpets can deaden some of this. I'm still a bit confused about this because usually concert halls also have bare floors, then again some concert halls have terrible acoustics. I suppose the answer is some sort of digital software noise cancellation system.


A guitar may sound benefit from the natural reverberation of a non-acoustically treated room due to the reduced sharpness of initial transients as compared to the initial bang when you hit a snare drum. Concerts and hi-fi stereo systems generally do not use digital noise cancellation because even if this exists, whatever reduction of reverb/delay that processes takes away would be negated when the sound enters back into the acoustic environment which is affected by the way air reflects off of various surfaces and objects in the said room. Here is an excellent video that recommends an affordable DIY acoustic treatment of rooms, as well as better understanding of room acoustics.


For vibration/dampening on my devices (CD transport and upcoming amp), I’ve found a few really good seeming and well reviewed options.





This is the Bright Star IsoNode feet on Audio Advisor that seems to has consistent positive reviews on a broad range of audio equipment from CD players to speakers, amps and even laptops (not sure if that has any practical function?), and its' polymer material seems to be durable and absorbs wide range of vibration.





Then there’s this option, the Vibrapod support cone which seems to be a hybrid solution with vibrations absorbed by both the vinyl material, as well as the ball bearing being able to roll around - but this poses the question of the ball being only able to absorb left-right (horizontal) vibrations(?), and which direction vibrations are emitted from the said device, and whether the ball bearing should be against a hard table vs. on a dampening material; or the other direction making contact on your device itself.

PS - apologies I know this is the Ultrasonic Studios thread, but I thought this may be relevant.


----------



## baronbeehive

Thanks for that!

Where the spike meets the disc does not absorb vibration it is just there to locate the spike and provide a base to protect what's underneath.

This subject is relevant because many people stack their equipment. I know that you can get vibration absorbing stands for example, indeed they come with their sound absorbing materials inside as we know.

Maybe I will experiment if I get the chance to remove the carpet.

All this is an argument for headphones.., but I prefer listening through speakers.


----------



## Maxx134

So is there any rational explanation for pointy feet, aside from unique looks?


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> So is there any rational explanation for pointy feet, aside from unique looks?



Now we're really losing it lol!


----------



## DecentLevi

They can really make a difference under speakers vs. sitting directly on a desk by raising them up a little and absorbing some vibrations causing tighter bass. Various frequency absorbing materials are also reported to be beneficial under tube amps and CD players, absorbing vibrations which effects the frequencies in various ways. I'm just getting into those and was looking for some input there. But there is no universal feet / damping material that does a certain thing, a lot of it is subjective and depends on which component your're using it under and the type of absorption material you're using.


----------



## nishan99

I just got the Oblivion today and I am listening to it with the the ZMF Verite open (verite pads+EQ) with the high impedance switch fed by monoprice THX desktop DAC section.

I am too lazy to get up and turn on the lights for appropriate photo 



Spoiler: big ass photo












I don't have any experience with electronics at its price so I don't know how it compare to other options, all I can tell is my own experience compared to my monoprice THX.

It's early impressions so take it for what it's worth 

To be honest I doubted myself if I can actually tell any significant differences in electronics after the THX and boy, was I wrong!.

The first things that was very obvious within the first listen before any a/b testing were the bigger stage in all dimensions, denser tones (and bigger sound images) and smoother presentation. The THX is really smooth sounding amp and the Oblivion is even smoother!.

After quite some time I started trying some a/b testing and I confirmed my first impressions. Also the sound out of the THX is noticeably leaner, something I can never say about the Verite.
The THX sounded cleaner with blacker background as expected but the Oblivion didn't sound opposite of that, it's just not as the THX in those categories.

The Oblivion does indeed has explosive dynamics in the mids and highs, electric guitars and horns really jumps at you. It's not a tuning thing because I tried different tracks and I ran sound sweeps multiple times and there is no emphasis in those regions. I actually think this amp is slightly dark sounding giving richer overall presentation.

I didn't test anything except the soundstage, it was just normal listening with some a/b testing whenever I was curious. I will try the Hifiman HE1000se after I spend enough time with the Verite first


----------



## Maxx134

nishan99 said:


> The THX sounded cleaner with blacker background


 I remember many years ago being impressed with the same attributes in a big solid state amp (headtrip), only to find out those clean blacks were imparted on specific music which I knew to have ambient details, and were missing.
So having a "clean" sound with very black background is actually a "red flag" for me when it comes to solid-state amps.


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## nishan99 (Jun 11, 2020)

Was listening to (YouTube version sucks really hard)


At the last minute I was curious to see how the THX would handle the busy and multiple instruments playing at different locations within the stage. I was shocked!, I didn't know my THX was that inferior!, I thought it would be worse than the Oblivion but it was flat out BAD! handling of the that segment of that track.

The right cello was fading in and out (literally fading, not microdynamic thing) with blurry imaging all over the stage!. The left violin was small and thin with very blurry and vague image, it also wasn't moving within the stage like what the Oblivion did (rising up). The piano in the center was overpowering the rest with the THX, it was not composed and controlled presentation as the Oblivion despite it having double the power!.

I am sorry if it's a primitive post and impressions, a truly case of "no shiit Sherlock it's a $300 vs $1800 comparison", yeah but I totally did not expected the difference is that significant and noticeable. I always heard high end electronics are bad value and "invest your money in headphones instead". But now I think the ratio is actually more close between the two than what I used to believe before. Really enlightening experience!.


----------



## SonicTrance

Another Oblivion finished! This is the first one to the UK!  







Now I have some Citadels to build! =)


----------



## baronbeehive

nishan99 said:


> ...The right cello was fading in and out (literally fading, not microdynamic thing) with blurry imaging all over the stage!. The left violin was small and thin with very blurry and vague image, it also wasn't moving within the stage like what the Oblivion did (rising up). The piano in the center was overpowering the rest with the THX, it was not composed and controlled presentation as the Oblivion despite it having double the power!.



The piano is definitely centre stage on my gear, (LD and HiFiMan He 500), the dominant instrument, but the cello and violin come through clearly, though further back, that violin rises beautifully towards the end! I'm sure it would be a better presentation on the Oblivion though, because the violin and cello, being further back need good resolve from the amp!

I'm pretty sure Spotify only uses MP3's though.


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> Another Oblivion finished! This is the first one to the UK!



I don't mind an invasion of Oblivions here at all LOL!
.


----------



## nishan99

baronbeehive said:


> The piano is definitely centre stage on my gear, (LD and HiFiMan He 500), the dominant instrument, but the cello and violin come through clearly, though further back, that violin rises beautifully towards the end! I'm sure it would be a better presentation on the Oblivion though, because the violin and cello, being further back need good resolve from the amp!
> 
> I'm pretty sure Spotify only uses MP3's though.



Yeah the piano should be the dominant instrument but the THX was overpowering it at the cost of others being significantly quieter. 

Yeah Spotify premium is lossless too but it's still significantly better than YT videos : )


----------



## UntilThen

Haven't been on here for a while. So much has happen. I didn't know you were getting a Oblivion @nishan99 but as you were a frequent visitor here, I shouldn't have been surprised. 

Oblivion does sound different to other amps I've owned or heard before. Most notably, I was wowed by the details and soundstage and how unfatiguing the high frequencies are, despite being very clear. Tonally it's unlike other solid state amps that can sound clinical and lean. The texture that Oblivion produce is very good to my ears. So much so, I prefer it above my Studio Six and Glenn OTL amp. That is a big achievement to my ears because I do like the other 2 amps a lot and I still do. My favourite listening setup these days is with LCD-3f and Oblivion.

Well 3 months of working from home is over. In 2 days time, I'll load up the audio gear, computers, screens into the SUV for the trip back to my office. With Oblivion in tow...


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Another Oblivion finished! This is the first one to the UK!



That Oblivion looks just like mine.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> That Oblivion looks just like mine.


Same spec as yours except this one has 1/4" SE output but no XLR input


----------



## UntilThen

nishan99 said:


> I just got the Oblivion today and I am listening to it with the the ZMF Verite open (verite pads+EQ) with the high impedance switch fed by monoprice THX desktop DAC section.
> 
> I am too lazy to get up and turn on the lights for appropriate photo
> 
> ...



That is a very nice photo of Oblivion by the way. You have 2 very nice headphones too. I did like how Verite Open with Verite pads sounded with Oblivion. In fact I haven't dislike any of the headphones I've tried with Oblivion - Verite, LCD-3f, LCD-X, HiFiMan Arya, Beyer T1.2, HD800.

Will wait for your impressions of the HE1000se with Oblivion. Joseph seems to like it, as well as the Utopia and HD800. Again I thought Arya sounded great with Oblivion but I go through phase of my audio life. I kind of gel with Audezes now.


----------



## nishan99

UntilThen said:


> That is a very nice photo of Oblivion by the way. You have 2 very nice headphones too. I did like how Verite Open with Verite pads sounded with Oblivion. In fact I haven't dislike any of the headphones I've tried with Oblivion - Verite, LCD-3f, LCD-X, HiFiMan Arya, Beyer T1.2, HD800.
> 
> Will wait for your impressions of the HE1000se with Oblivion. Joseph seems to like it, as well as the Utopia and HD800. Again I thought Arya sounded great with Oblivion but I go through phase of my audio life. I kind of gel with Audezes now.




Last night listen was with HEKse, it's indeed a fine pairing  . I will post more details in the future, but now I gotta listen more


----------



## nishan99 (Jun 12, 2020)

I don't know if this is correct for all tube amplifiers, but this amp affect the stage of the recordings more than the headphones themselves. Let me explain.

When I test tracks that utilize the full dimensions of the stage (e.g. Dr. Chesky stuff) the stage expansion except for the depth is not that significant over the THX.
Where the magic happens is in the other 99% of the recordings which don't utilize the full size of your headphones stage. That was very apparent with the HE1000se (EQed).

So what happens in the other 99% of the recordings?, the stage expands from the center giving more space between different sounds, the _maximum _stage size of your headphones is not affected as much. It just helps those recordings to use more of that space.

If this sounds concerning to you because other software tricks can do the same but at the cost of imaging precision and bass quality then don't worry!, I was concerned about those things too, the imaging is a *league *above the THX with the HEKse, it was also noticeably better with the Verite but not a league difference.
Despite the THX having blacker background the imaging was much better with the Oblivion thanks for the sharper and more defined imaging borders of each sound.

The bass with the HEKse is as good after multiple a/b testing using the higher impedance output (12 Ohms) driving the 35 Ohm HEKse , I tried a/b testing it with the lower impedance output and I didn't hear a noticeable difference, so I said fk it and shove triple the power into those planars .
I forgot to mention that I am not as sensitive as others in terms of bass resolution, so there _might be_ an affect there that I didn't catch .


----------



## nishan99

Okay I take it back, the bass is tighter and faster with the low impedance output using the HE1000se. It was not noticeable with drums, I had to go to Infected Mushrooms to really test this stuff, this track specifically after 3:50 minute.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm back in Canberra now. Cold winter nights. I haven't listen to my headphone system for a while. I've been listening to my Axis VoiceBox S speakers powered by the Redgum Rgi120enr as shown in the picture.



Then I listen to this Leonard Cohen song and it's good !


So I strap on my LCD-3f and had it powered through Oblivion. It's just as good.


----------



## nishan99

nishan99 said:


> Okay I take it back, the bass is tighter and faster with the low impedance output using the HE1000se. It was not noticeable with drums, I had to go to Infected Mushrooms to really test this stuff, this track specifically after 3:50 minute.




I also did the same test with the Verite and didn't notice any difference. Then I went and tested the subbass of this track. 



The subbass is much better, louder and more extended with the *high* impedance output. 

Then I a/b tested it against the THX to see which one is more accurate thinking it may be a coloration of the high impedance output, but it turns out the THX is actually similar to the higher impedance output.


----------



## Maxx134

nishan99 said:


> . I was shocked!, I didn't know my THX was that inferior!,


It's that very few amps can match this amp in soundstage placement.
Even tube amps with great holography can seem skewed in sonic image (in comparison.



nishan99 said:


> I am sorry if it's a primitive post and impressions, a truly case of "no shiit Sherlock it's a $300 vs $1800 comparison"


Actually it's not about the price...

The THX topology uses some type of feed forward.
Even in the best design THX units, there can be a "narrowing" of the center image, on complex busy instruments.
That's at least what I have noticed.


----------



## baronbeehive

nishan99 said:


> When I test tracks that utilize the full dimensions of the stage (e.g. Dr. Chesky stuff) the stage expansion except for the depth is not that significant over the THX.
> Where the magic happens is in the other 99% of the recordings which don't utilize the full size of your headphones stage. That was very apparent with the HE1000se (EQed).
> 
> So what happens in the other 99% of the recordings?, the stage expands from the center giving more space between different sounds, the _maximum _stage size of your headphones is not affected as much. It just helps those recordings to use more of that space.



There's also the thing that unless you have a binaural recording or a high quality recording such as the Dr. Chesky high res ones you mention, even if your headphones provide good soundstage it all depends on the recording. For example a well produced recording might not have the mikes positioned well to capture the realism of the instrument placement. I guess that what a good amp does is not so much reproduce the soundstage in this case as give good separation between instruments so that you can hear the well defined boundaries of the sounds, even if you can't quite detect their position within the stage, much as you have hinted.

For example my HiFiMan HE 800's don't usually reproduce a vast soundstage, but I do get good instrument separation, and with a really well produced recording such as a binaural one the stage expands right out of my head towards the room walls!

I am interested also in your impressions of your HE 100SE as a side note.


----------



## baronbeehive

Here's a couple of good demos which may be of interest to test out the soundstage. The second one is also a lovely song:





Should sound awesome on the Oblivion!
.


----------



## baronbeehive

A couple more which spring to mind as having the best soundstage I've heard:





The width and depth of the last one is amazing!


----------



## nishan99

nishan99 said:


> I also did the same test with the Verite and didn't notice any difference. Then I went and tested the subbass of this track.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I did this exact subbass test with the HE1000se and the difference was not as noticeable as the Verite. The result was the lower impedance output provide more impact for the bass notes with less subbass rumble, the higher impedance output did the opposite  , the extension was the same and also the difference as I stated before is not as noticeable.

Unlike the Verite, the lower impedance output was more similar to the THX amp with the HE1000se. 

So in summary: the lower impedance output is more appropriate for the HEKse, it provides better bass dynamics and more accurate subbass reproduction.
The higher impedance is more appropriate for the Verite, it provides the same bass qualities and much better subbass reproduction.

All done with the dual AK 4493 DAC chips inside the Monoprice THX desktop using the stock cables for both headphones and normal Amazon interconnects.


----------



## nishan99

baronbeehive said:


> I am interested also in your impressions of your HE 100SE as a side note.



It's a great pairing!.

The Oblivion tames the HEKse crazy treble slightly, I reduced 2dB from my EQ while still applying -2 to -3dB in some areas, so yeah they're still bright to me after all.
It also FIXED the hazy imaging that I hate about Hifimans planars, now it's focused and precise. < the difference is a night and day to me!.

The mids got more body too but still slightly thin sounding overall.

Also the tubes harmonics are great addition to the dry and analytical sound of those planars. I usually don't like the fast decay of those planars, it's unnatural imo.


----------



## baronbeehive

nishan99 said:


> It's a great pairing!.
> 
> The Oblivion tames the HEKse crazy treble slightly, I reduced 2dB from my EQ while still applying -2 to -3dB in some areas, so yeah they're still bright to me after all.
> It also FIXED the hazy imaging that I hate about Hifimans planars, now it's focused and precise. < the difference is a night and day to me!.


What fixed the hazy imaging, the Oblivion, or the EQ?



nishan99 said:


> Also the tubes harmonics are great addition to the dry and analytical sound of those planars. I usually don't like the fast decay of those planars, it's unnatural imo.


Agreed, fast decay... bad!!

Sounds like a good synergy, fixed all the questionable points.


----------



## nishan99

baronbeehive said:


> What fixed the hazy imaging, the Oblivion, or the EQ?



I meant the Oblivion there, but the EQ also helped with the imaging but didn't fix it.


----------



## SonicTrance

I just finished a Citadel. This one is a little different as it has no volume control but a gain switch instead. It also has a 6SN7 input stage rather than 6SL7 to lower the gain.


----------



## nishan99

It seems like I am not the only one who will use your amps like a power amps lol. They're freaking huge : D.


----------



## UntilThen

Each time I see Sonic rolls out a new amp, I am reminded just how content I am with my Oblivion. After years of changing amps, I am now just content to stay with these without spending more on head-fi gear.

These amps are very quiet and sound just right to my ears. Gone are the days when I have to deal with tube hums and buzz. Gone are the days when I have to roll tubes because I'm just curious what the next exotic tube might sound like. I just spend time now listening to music, which is what I set out to do.


----------



## UntilThen

My Redgum amp develop a fault. There's very faint sound from the right speaker. Switching amp duty to Oblivion, both speakers sound beautiful now and in stereo unison. What's more, the speakers has more sparkle driven by Oblivion now and at half volume, it's more than sufficient for me. Over time, I've grown more fond of Oblivion as it becomes more and more a part of my life.


----------



## joseph69

Listening to my HE1000v2 w/Citadel Custom and they're sounding fantastic!


----------



## PeteSTRADAMUS

joseph69 said:


> Listening to my HE1000v2 w/Citadel Custom and they're sounding fantastic!


Joseph, do you still have the wa33? How would you compare that and this one? I think you had the wa33, I could be wrong.


----------



## joseph69

PeteSTRADAMUS said:


> Joseph, do you still have the wa33? How would you compare that and this one? I think you had the wa33, I could be wrong.


Yes, I still have my WA33.
Both are excellent amps for what they offer, but I don't feel it would be a fair comparison, though, being the WA33 is a beast. I really enjoy the entire presentation of the Citadel with all of my headphones. There's such a nice balance of everything that this amp offers, like its speed, depth, dimension and staging that gives it so much musicality, it really is addictive to me. If I had too, I could sell my WA33 and be 100% content with the Citadel, fortunately, I don't have to do this, though. If you're contemplating buying the Citadel, don't procrastinate, do it as soon as possible!


----------



## PeteSTRADAMUS

joseph69 said:


> Yes, I still have my WA33.
> Both are excellent amps for what they offer, but I don't feel it would be a fair comparison, though, being the WA33 is a beast. I really enjoy the entire presentation of the Citadel with all of my headphones. There's such a nice balance of everything that this amp offers, like its speed, depth, dimension and staging that gives it so much musicality, it really is addictive to me. If I had too, I could sell my WA33 and be 100% content with the Citadel, fortunately, I don't have to do this, though. If you're contemplating buying the Citadel, don't procrastinate, do it as soon as possible!


Very interesting. The wa33 is still the top dog that I heard so far. That I truly loved. I can’t think about big amps right now. I got into the high end iem game right now. Lol. I’m enjoying that for the time-being. If it makes the Abyss sound similar to the wa33 than there’s no point in getting the wa33. Maybe months down the road I’ll look into the full-size stuff.


----------



## joseph69

PeteSTRADAMUS said:


> If it makes the Abyss sound similar to the wa33 than there’s no point in getting the wa33.


If you're referring to the Citadel making the Abyss (TC?) sound similar to the WA33, I've never heard them out of the Citadel, only my WA33.


----------



## Roasty

joseph69 said:


> If you're referring to the Citadel making the Abyss (TC?) sound similar to the WA33, I've never heard them out of the Citadel, only my WA33.



Try the TC with the Citadel and let us know how it is! I'm sure a lot of people would love to hear your impressions of that pairing, especially since u have the wa33 too.


----------



## joseph69

Roasty said:


> Try the TC with the Citadel and let us know how it is! I'm sure a lot of people would love to hear your impressions of that pairing, especially since u have the wa33 too.


I don't own the TC.


----------



## Roasty

joseph69 said:


> I don't own the TC.



Oh snap.


----------



## joseph69

Roasty said:


> Oh snap.


I did hear my friends TC out of my WA33, though, and enjoyed it very much, just didn't have enough head time with the combo to justify the purchase of the TC. Whenever The Cable Company starts to loan headphones again I'm going to borrow the TC's, for sure.


----------



## Maxx134 (Aug 19, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> My Redgum amp develop a fault. There's very faint sound from the right speaker. Switching amp duty to Oblivion, both speakers sound beautiful now and in stereo unison. What's more, the speakers has more sparkle driven by Oblivion now and at half volume, it's more than sufficient for me. Over time, I've grown more fond of Oblivion as it becomes more and more a part of my life.


Agree, I'm lucky my version of Oblivion is more versatile as it has the speaker outputs, so I won't be needing any speaker amp in future.




joseph69 said:


> Yes, I still have my WA33.
> Both are excellent amps for what they offer, but I don't feel it would be a fair comparison, though, being the WA33 is a beast. I really enjoy the entire presentation of the Citadel with all of my headphones. There's such a nice balance of everything that this amp offers, like its speed, depth, dimension and staging that gives it so much musicality, it really is addictive to me. If I had too, I could sell my WA33 and be 100% content with the Citadel, fortunately, I don't have to do this, though. If you're contemplating buying the Citadel, don't procrastinate, do it as soon as possible!


After hearing your Citadel it actually sounds very immersive and addicting, compared to your wa33 Wich also is such impressive beauty, and I can indirectly agree, as I found woo33 strength or main difference (in comparison to Citadel) is that it has a slight thicker bass thump/hit. Not messy just like heavier and also not as fast.
Both have that  beautiful end game sound, so I can see why hard to let go...



PeteSTRADAMUS said:


> If it makes the Abyss sound similar to the wa33 than there’s no point in getting the wa33. Maybe months down the road I’ll look into the full-size stuff


In my experience, the Abyss sounded most lively with these SonicTrance amps, and contribute that to the transients speed,  but if looking for a similarity, I was able to get the Oblivion (using Susvara) to sound just like the heavier bass hitting "PASS LABS INT-150" (same tonality)  by just a bit bass elevation on the "room player"EQ..

So although the wa33 is a thicker, weighty bass, I feel the woo is more like the PASS LABS in that respect.

Yet I feel the bass on the Oblivion and the Pass Labs unit superior in speed/clarity to the woo33 more traditional tube type euphoric signature.

I really don't see any choice being wrong or better, just a preference, because they all still hit the end game level in resolve...

Edit**
Woops the main choice is the price!


----------



## PeteSTRADAMUS

Maxx134 said:


> Agree, I'm lucky my version of Oblivion is more versatile as it has the speaker outputs, so I won't be needing any speaker amp in future.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, price isn’t even in the same ballpark. Quite a leap from the Citadel to the wa33.


----------



## SonicTrance

Another Citadel is done! I've done some tweaking which results in slightly higher power output across the board. I've updated my website with new power output measurements. I'll do the same tweaking with Oblivion once I build one again. I have two more Citadels to build first =)


----------



## UntilThen

Outstanding. I have the Oblivion which looks like this and I never tire of the looks. I've always kept mine clean. No dust allowed to settle on it. It's an icon now.


----------



## joseph69

I opted for the impedance switch on my Citadel Custom and for the first time last week I listened to my HD800 and was impressed with the combination, especially in the bass department. The Citadel never cease to amaze me.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm just playing MS Flight Simulator 2020 while listening to music with HD800 and Oblivion, on a wide screen monitor, for a truly immersive experience. Soundstage has never been wider and the details are stunning. Now I can see and hear.


----------



## joseph69

My WA33 is gone but not forgotten. Sold it this afternoon after finding myself powering up my Citadel more often than the WA33.
My Citadel Custom has such good synergy with the rest of my upstream gear, cables and headphones that I'm finding myself enjoying my music more rather than listening to my gear. This is in no way, shape or form a knock to the outstanding performance the WA33 offers, or to say it didn't have excellent synergy with my gear and headphones, but rather a compliment to the Citadel and my realization that I can let the WA33 go and still be able enjoy my music just as much, but only in a different presentation.  I've also held onto my GS-Xmk2 as well.


----------



## Roasty

joseph69 said:


> My WA33 is gone but not forgotten. Sold it this afternoon after finding myself powering up my Citadel more often than the WA33.
> My Citadel Custom has such good synergy with the rest of my upstream gear, cables and headphones that I'm finding myself enjoying my music more rather than listening to my gear. This is in no way, shape or form a knock to the outstanding performance the WA33 offers, or to say it didn't have excellent synergy with my gear and headphones, but rather a compliment to the Citadel and my realization that I can let the WA33 go and still be able enjoy my music just as much, but only in a different presentation.  I've also held onto my GS-Xmk2 as well.



That says a lot about the Citadel. I've always liked how the Citadel looks and I also like that the builder is quite active with posts on this thread. What headphones are you using with it again?


----------



## joseph69

Roasty said:


> That says a lot about the Citadel. I've always liked how the Citadel looks and I also like that the builder is quite active with posts on this thread. What headphones are you using with it again?


I currently own the Utopia - HE1000v2 - HD800 - GS2000e - GH1 - RS1i & 325is and have no intentions of chasing after headphones or gear anymore after doing this for quite sometime now. I've climbed to the top several times only to find that in the end it can become distracting to the main reason we enjoy this hobby which is for the music. It was a great experience, but now it's time for me to just enjoy! This doesn't mean I'm never going to buy and sell any headphones again, but as far as amplification and upstream gear it's a wrap. You can check my signature for a complete listing of my headphones and gear.


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> My WA33 is gone but not forgotten. Sold it this afternoon after finding myself powering up my Citadel more often than the WA33.
> My Citadel Custom has such good synergy with the rest of my upstream gear, cables and headphones that I'm finding myself enjoying my music more rather than listening to my gear. This is in no way, shape or form a knock to the outstanding performance the WA33 offers, or to say it didn't have excellent synergy with my gear and headphones, but rather a compliment to the Citadel and my realization that I can let the WA33 go and still be able enjoy my music just as much, but only in a different presentation.  I've also held onto my GS-Xmk2 as well.



When I read this yesterday, I couldn't help but smile. I didn't reply then as I was 'busy' working.

We couldn't have scripted this better .... except we had no idea what the other was doing. 

A week ago, I received a message from someone I know... someone who has gone through a lot of great head-fi gear... and I mean great. He ask that if I wanted to 'let go' of my gear to let him know first. So I look at my main system. I have a DAC - Yggdrasil ... nope not selling this. Mike Moffat sign it.  Then there's the stereo amp - Redgum. Nah I'm keeping that. The speakers? Love it - Axis Voicebox S. So there are only 2 units left. My headphone amps - Oblivion and Studio Six. The truth is I like how the rack looks. Everything fits and sounds great. However... the big however... I'm using Oblivion most of the time. Studio Six is a great amp. I have never had a tube amp that is ultra quiet with no music playing. It sounds great but Oblivion with LCD-3f just nails it for me. Studio Six sounded great with LCD-3f, almost perfect but Oblivion has the edge. Well to my ears.

One other thing. The power button on the Oblivion is in front. The power button on Studio Six is behind. Minor thing right? Not so when you have to live with this setup everyday.  

Anyway, to cut the story short. I make an offer of the Studio Six and all my precious tubes (including my mint Sylvania 6sn7w metal base and Mullard ECC33), Mullard GZ34 Blackburn factory. It was accepted willingly. I dare say if I offered to sell the Oblivion, it would have been accepted too. I have great respect for this gentleman. Never have I met such a buyer and audio enthusiast. However Oblivion is not for sale. It's my last bastion... until my craze leads me to sample something better and that wouldn't be easy.

Yup I sold my Studio Six last week and I sold off the Glenn OTL Super 7 last year. Both amps I love dearly but I kept Oblivion.


----------



## joseph69

I copied and pasted my post below (slightly edited) from a 4 way PM that explains what brought me to my final decision to sell my WA33.

"I was burning in my WyWires Platinum IC's over the weekend using both, the Citadel & WA33 for -/+ 4hrs each paired with both, my GS2000e & HE1000v2. I was occasionally putting the headphones on and listening for a minute or so, and when switching from the Citadel to the WA33 I just didn't  immediately enjoy what I was hearing. It took time for me to get adjusted to the WA33. When switching to the WA33 to the Citadel I immediately enjoyed what I was hearing from either of the headphones I was using. This said a lot too me and right then and there I decided to sell my WA33."


----------



## baronbeehive

It's great to hear of so many happy customers!
.


----------



## whirlwind

baronbeehive said:


> It's great to hear of so many happy customers!
> .




Yeah and hearing how good the amp is from multiple people that I know has heard some really good gear speaks volumes for how good the gear is.


----------



## Bonddam

Just committed to the silver Citadel.


----------



## joseph69

Bonddam said:


> Just committed to the silver Citadel.


Great commitment.


----------



## UntilThen

Bonddam said:


> Just committed to the silver Citadel.



You have some high end headphones to try it with too.Congrats.


----------



## Bonddam (Sep 15, 2020)

What is output power on the custom Citadel or
does it put out the same as the regular?

What is it’s purpose against the regular version?

Does it use the same input tubes as the regular?

It would seem to handle the 1266 TC just fine as it is close to 2 watts which is what the XI Audio Formula S puts out.


----------



## joseph69

Bonddam said:


> What is output power on the custom Citadel or
> does it put out the same as the regular?
> 
> What is it’s purpose against the regular version?
> ...


Read here & here for the answers to your questions.


----------



## UntilThen

Don't recall Sonic saying anything about the custom Citadel sounding different from the regular Citadel. So looks like just aesthetics. Different chassis, output tubes. Drivers appear to be similar.


----------



## SonicTrance

Bonddam said:


> What is output power on the custom Citadel or
> does it put out the same as the regular?
> 
> What is it’s purpose against the regular version?
> ...


I'm building a custom Citadel right now. Will take power output measurements when I finish it in a few days. They will be close to the regular Citadel. 

It's only the output tubes that differ from the stock Citadel. The 6P7S tubes will yield slightly higher voltage swing. So more power into high Z headphones. But, I mainly use the 6P7S for aesthetics in the silver version.


----------



## Bonddam

So being that eventually be an owner of the Citadel decided to see what popped up on eBay for the 6P7S and there’s a lot in quads. I’m bad at trying to decide on something so abundant. What brands should I focus on? No, have no intention on tube rolling as it’s not needed.


----------



## SonicTrance

Bonddam said:


> So being that eventually be an owner of the Citadel decided to see what popped up on eBay for the 6P7S and there’s a lot in quads. I’m bad at trying to decide on something so abundant. What brands should I focus on? No, have no intention on tube rolling as it’s not needed.


Brand for 6P7S doesn't matter. They're all Russian tubes, either Foton or Svetlana if I'm not mistaken. Very good and linear tubes and still cheap! You could also try the American tube 6BG6 which (almost) has identical specs as the Russian 6P7S. The 6BG6 is not as plentiful and cheap as the 6P7S though.


----------



## SonicTrance

Bonddam said:


> What is output power on the custom Citadel or
> does it put out the same as the regular?





SonicTrance said:


> I'm building a custom Citadel right now. Will take power output measurements when I finish it in a few days. They will be close to the regular Citadel.



The amp is now finished and I made the output power measurements. As expected they're very close to the regular Citadel. So close that it's not worth noting as you won't notice any difference in power.

Here're some pics =)


----------



## DecentLevi

SonicTrance said:


> The amp is now finished and I made the output power measurements. As expected they're very close to the regular Citadel. So close that it's not worth noting as you won't notice any difference in power.
> 
> Here're some pics =)


What a beauty, evoking master craftsmanship like fine art at every angle. This one somehow gives me the impression it's small. Would you be able to take another photo with it against something like a known headphone, soda cans, etc. for a point of reference on size?


----------



## ScornDefeat

SonicTrance said:


> The amp is now finished and I made the output power measurements. As expected they're very close to the regular Citadel. So close that it's not worth noting as you won't notice any difference in power.
> 
> Here're some pics =)



This is absolutely gorgeous, right down to the beautiful vibration control feet.

The big questions now....what's the price point on this custom Citadel???


----------



## nishan99

SonicTrance said:


> The amp is now finished and I made the output power measurements. As expected they're very close to the regular Citadel. So close that it's not worth noting as you won't notice any difference in power.
> 
> Here're some pics =)



No more heat sinks?


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> What a beauty, evoking master craftsmanship like fine art at every angle. This one somehow gives me the impression it's small. Would you be able to take another photo with it against something like a known headphone, soda cans, etc. for a point of reference on size?



Have a look at Joseph's pictures. He has it side by side with the Woo Audio WA33. That will give you an idea of the custom Citadel size.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/post-15490664


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> What a beauty, evoking master craftsmanship like fine art at every angle. This one somehow gives me the impression it's small. Would you be able to take another photo with it against something like a known headphone, soda cans, etc. for a point of reference on size?


Thanks for the nice comments! I really appreciate it!

The amp is boxed up and ships out today. But, the exact dimensions are stated on my website. Check the Citadel page.



ScornDefeat said:


> This is absolutely gorgeous, right down to the beautiful vibration control feet.
> 
> The big questions now....what's the price point on this custom Citadel???


Thanks!  

The price for Silver Citadel is 2550 EUR with no add-ons.



nishan99 said:


> No more heat sinks?


There's plenty of heat sinks on the inside that are directly mounted to the chassis. Nothing is getting overheated


----------



## Bonddam

It’s a big amp


----------



## joseph69

DecentLevi said:


> What a beauty, evoking master craftsmanship like fine art at every angle. This one somehow gives me the impression it's small. Would you be able to take another photo with it against something like a known headphone, soda cans, etc. for a point of reference on size?


Here are a couple of photos of my CC next to my GS-Xmk2 for reference.
Neither are big amps.















nishan99 said:


> No more heat sinks?


I've had my CC running for 4+hrs at a time on several occasions and it doesn't run hot at all, only slightly warm.
In fact, my GSX-mk2 runs warmer.


----------



## Bonddam

joseph69 said:


> Here are a couple of photos of my CC next to my GS-Xmk2 for reference.
> Neither are big amps.
> 
> 
> ...


Have you notice CC being more enjoyable than the GSX?


----------



## joseph69

Bonddam said:


> Have you notice CC being more enjoyable than the GSX?


I enjoy both very much in my chain.


----------



## joseph69

Here, here, here & here are some posts from the 'Focal Utopia Thread' regarding amplification.


----------



## UntilThen

UntilThen said:


> At 2 am on the 28th of Dec 2019, I got up and listen to Endless River by Pink Floyd and Fear in A Handful of Dust by Amon Tobin. Some songs I repeat through each of the 3 amps. Eventually after an hour I settle down to enjoy the music on Oblivion. Tomorrow morning I leave with my wife for a beach house up the coast for the weekend with some friends. I'll return on Sunday night and spend another 2 days listening before writing my impressions on New Year's Eve. It's the start of the new decade. A momentous point in time.



When I wrote this almost a year ago, I have the faintest idea what 2020 will bring. That very moment in time - at 2am on the 28th Dec 2019, I must be the happiest person on earth, listening to music on 3 gorgeous amps. Alas, 2020 brought along calamity after calamity. Bush fires, Covid-19, working from home and the US Election. Sigh  

I have not use Oblivion for more than 2 months but that's about to change as I journey back to Canberra this Sunday. All this while in Sydney, I have been using Burson Conductor V2+ and La Figaro 339. I have even left Verite and HD800 in Canberra. I have LCD-3f, Beyer T1.2 and HD650 in Sydney. Yeah I'm looking forward to listening to the combo of Yggdrasil and Oblivion again with the various headphones.

Now to reflect on my audio journey as we race towards the end of 2020. Pretty soon it will be Christmas.

I hope you folks are doing well !


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> When I wrote this almost a year ago, I have the faintest idea what 2020 will bring. That very moment in time - at 2am on the 28th Dec 2019, I must be the happiest person on earth, listening to music on 3 gorgeous amps. Alas, 2020 brought along calamity after calamity. Bush fires, Covid-19, working from home and the US Election. Sigh
> 
> ...
> 
> I hope you folks are doing well !



Don't know which is worse of the 3 things you mention. Thanks for the good wishes, I hope so too, lets all hope for some relief from this weird alternate universe we are living in atm .


----------



## SonicTrance

Here's another Citadel complete! This one has a true power input add-on that does not only bypass the volume pot but the entire input stage. The signal is injected straight into the grid drivers that drives the 6P31S grid's. First amp that has this feature and it worked out great!


----------



## Bonddam

Does any of the amps ever need to be biased?


----------



## SonicTrance

Bonddam said:


> Does any of the amps ever need to be biased?


Short answer is no!
All stages, except for the input stage in Oblivion which uses fixed grid bias, is biased through a CCS tail. No adjustments are ever needed.


----------



## Bonddam

SonicTrance said:


> Short answer is no!
> All stages, except for the input stage in Oblivion which uses fixed grid bias, is biased through a CCS tail. No adjustments are ever needed.


Good hate extra work!


----------



## SonicTrance

Bonddam said:


> Good hate extra work!


The first review amp I built (@Maxx134 Oblivion) has a trimmer on each side to set the current to the output tubes. That's the only one I built with that feature as it's unnecessary and could potentially damage the amp if your not careful, so I decided to use fixed resistors instead.


----------



## Maxx134

SonicTrance said:


> The first review amp I built (@Maxx134 Oblivion) has a trimmer on each side to set the current to the output tubes. That's the only one I built with that feature as it's unnecessary and could potentially damage the amp if your not careful, so I decided to use fixed resistors instead.


The Oblivion remains my number one reference amp.
It is the most accurate amp in every aspect I have heard so far.


----------



## BzzzzzT

SonicTrance said:


> Here's another Citadel complete! This one has a true power input add-on that does not only bypass the volume pot but the entire input stage. The signal is injected straight into the grid drivers that drives the 6P31S grid's. First amp that has this feature and it worked out great!



Tomas, thank you for all your hard work in building this amp and working with me to get everything put together! The power input is a first, as far as I can tell. I have never seen it done before in any tube amp before, let alone a headphone amp. These 6P31S are brilliant tubes and a wonderful choice! I can't wait to hear this amp! I know it will sound much better than the amps I have built in the past! I was listening to a solid state amp and really missing tubes. I found myself running the signal through my tube compressor and tube preamps on my recording setup to get some more harmonics. It will be really nice to have a full fledged tube amp again.


----------



## SonicTrance

BzzzzzT said:


> Tomas, thank you for all your hard work in building this amp and working with me to get everything put together! The power input is a first, as far as I can tell. I have never seen it done before in any tube amp before, let alone a headphone amp. These 6P31S are brilliant tubes and a wonderful choice! I can't wait to hear this amp! I know it will sound much better than the amps I have built in the past! I was listening to a solid state amp and really missing tubes. I found myself running the signal through my tube compressor and tube preamps on my recording setup to get some more harmonics. It will be really nice to have a full fledged tube amp again.


It's been my pleasure! I hope you'll enjoy it for many years to come!


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> Here's another Citadel complete! This one has a true power input add-on that does not only bypass the volume pot but the entire input stage. The signal is injected straight into the grid drivers that drives the 6P31S grid's. First amp that has this feature and it worked out great!



Hey Sonic, you aren't standing still LOL!

That add-on should have yet more sonic benefits.


----------



## Maxx134 (Oct 24, 2020)

SonicTrance said:


> first review amp I built (@Maxx134 Oblivion)


Hmm I think I may have the oldest Oblivion amp, lol.
Although changing the tubes in this amp realistically don't matter, as they retain the same overall level of quality, realism & refinement, I did swap out my stock tubes.
I ended up with some rare Mazda and mullards, more so to complete my visual tastes.


Also, thanks to the single ended driver stage,  I did manage to tube swap some tiny tube changes, in the realm of sonics of probably 2-3% ( in wire territory differences).

The output stage tubes gave no sonic flavor, but the Tesla tubes seemed to give me a slight  more dynamics, compared to my Mazda. Still, I kept the Mazda in for the beauty of the bottle.


I posted a link a few pages back in thread for anyone looking for those.
They are shorter and less bright tho..
The stock tubes are my backup tubes when I run out, but I think these tubes being run optimally should last very long, correct? so three pairs should last lifetime???


The driver section tubes were the only place I could try to add anything to the sound, and did so with mullards, which are known for having most tube sound. So although the signature was still neutral, I did feel a tiny hint of tube flavor injected in (maybe 2%) which was what I wanted to do. Just a hint of tube..

I have heard more amps since, but not want to part with my Oblivion, as once you reach summit-fi, the only difference is choice, and I prefer the more accurate soundstage over flavor or image difference.

I don't think the Citadel would not allow any variance, as it is front end is more refined and balanced.
Still, It's great to have a designer who is open to  choices as I have seen the Citadel with different configurations.


----------



## SonicTrance

Maxx134 said:


> Hmm I think I may have the oldest Oblivion amp, lol.


Yes! You have the first one! The first one I called Oblivion anyway  



Maxx134 said:


> Also, thanks to the single ended driver stage, I did manage to tube swap some tiny tube changes, in the realm of sonics of probably 2-3% ( in wire territory differences).
> 
> The output stage tubes gave no sonic flavor, but the Tesla tubes seemed to give me a slight more dynamics, compared to my Mazda. Still, I kept the Mazda in for the beauty of the bottle.


The input stage in Oblivion is, like you say, where you can expect to hear most difference from tube rolling. That tube also have a flat load line, like the balanced output stage, but is grid biased and doesn't draw constant current. 
The tubes in the output stage in Oblivion, and both input and output stage in Citadel, have flat load lines and draw constant current. The tubes are operating in their linear region at all times. That makes it hard to tell tubes apart if both are NOS and have similar grid curves. It's all about the curves! =) 



Maxx134 said:


> The stock tubes are my backup tubes when I run out, but I think these tubes being run optimally should last very long, correct? so three pairs should last lifetime???


Yes, they should last a very long time. The EL81's are run at 3,5 W and are speced for 10 W!



Maxx134 said:


> Still, It's great to have a designer who is open to choices as I have seen the Citadel with different configurations.


The silver version of Citadel uses 6P7S output tubes instead of the 6P31S. That's mainly for aesthetics though =) 

I'm designing a new amp in the coming months. It's going to be a SET amp with much more power than Oblivion and Citadel. Going to be great for speakers but also headphones of course! It's going to be called Infinity. I'll post here with updates on that!


----------



## Maxx134

SonicTrance said:


> Yes! You have the first one! The first one I called Oblivion anyway


You should start numbering them.




SonicTrance said:


> I'm designing a new amp in the coming months. It's going to be a SET amp with much more power than Oblivion and Citadel. Going to be great for speakers but also headphones of course! It's going to be called Infinity. I'll post here with updates on that!


Fantastic!


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> I'm designing a new amp in the coming months. It's going to be a SET amp with much more power than Oblivion and Citadel. Going to be great for speakers but also headphones of course! It's going to be called Infinity. I'll post here with updates on that!




WOW!

I love my little SET amp.. the APPJ or Miniwatt.. so that will be very interesting .


----------



## joseph69 (Oct 27, 2020)

@SonicTrance  
Have you ever considered moving just a little bit closer...like somewhere in the states?
Looking forward to the Infinity.


----------



## SonicTrance

joseph69 said:


> @SonicTrance
> Have you ever considered moving just a little bit closer...like somewhere in the states?
> Looking forward to the Infinity.


Haha, sorry Joseph. I'll stay up here in the north! 

Thanks for showing interest! I'll keep you posted!


----------



## Fegefeuer

It's fine here in Europe. Americans have DNA, EC (at least for a short time), ampsandsound, ECP and so on.
Let us have our tube amp crafting Snowman. 

Now onto infinite shores!


----------



## SonicTrance

Fegefeuer said:


> It's fine here in Europe. Americans have DNA, EC (at least for a short time), ampsandsound, ECP and so on.
> Let us have our tube amp crafting Snowman.
> 
> Now onto infinite shores!


Haha you'll have him!


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> Haha, sorry Joseph. I'll stay up here in the north!
> 
> Thanks for showing interest! I'll keep you posted!



The snow in the U.S. a little too warm LOL?


----------



## Bonddam

What’s the life of the tubes on the custom citadel?


----------



## SonicTrance

Bonddam said:


> What’s the life of the tubes on the custom citadel?


There's never any guarantees when we're talking about tubes, but they will more then likely live a long and happy life as I run them way below max plate dissipation.


----------



## Bonddam

I know tubes can break brand new and older. If a tube is perfect could we say 5000 hours. All my amps are tube and I’ve talked to people that are getting at least 8 years from regular use. I’m just interested in perfect world.


----------



## SonicTrance

Bonddam said:


> I know tubes can break brand new and older. If a tube is perfect could we say 5000 hours. All my amps are tube and I’ve talked to people that are getting at least 8 years from regular use. I’m just interested in perfect world.


Yes definitely 5000 hours. Probably a lot longer in a perfect world.


----------



## SonicTrance

This Oblivion has a pre-amp output with a very large voltage swing. The output is taken from the grid drivers. The input stage using 6AV6's, then the grid drivers (current buffers) to the pre-amp output. This output can drive a large power amp with it's huge voltage swing. If someone is interested in a standalone pre-amp to drive a power amp let me know.

I've updated with new power output measurements on the website as promised. They're now slightly higher across the board.


----------



## DecentLevi

Awesome! Any insights on how this higher output effects the sound would be interesting to read - on headphones mainly, and speakers. I'd imagine it may also have an effect on pairing with some headphones (maybe for the better).


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> Awesome! Any insights on how this higher output effects the sound would be interesting to read - on headphones mainly, and speakers. I'd imagine it may also have an effect on pairing with some headphones (maybe for the better).


The high voltage swing output is a pre-amp output. It's meant to drive a power amp / output stage. It can't drive headphones directly as it's high voltage, low current. Headphones wants low voltage high current.


----------



## Bonddam

Tomas never found anything mentioned on the sound getting better when the tubes fully cook. Do both amps have that improvement factor like other amps?


----------



## SonicTrance (Nov 10, 2020)

Bonddam said:


> Tomas never found anything mentioned on the sound getting better when the tubes fully cook. Do both amps have that improvement factor like other amps?


I run the tubes, in both Oblivion and Citadel, in their linear region but way below max plate dissipation. This gives the best sound possible and long tube life. The only reason (in my amps) for running the tubes hotter would be for more power.


----------



## UntilThen

Just drop by to say that I've not power on my Oblivion for weeks or maybe months... and when I did it now, listening with Audeze LCD-3f, holy balls !!!  Pardon the profanity. 

I've forgotten how this setup can titillate my auditory senses. It is that good.


----------



## UntilThen

It's time to light up for Christmas guys.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> It's time to light up for Christmas guys.


Cool pic! The EL81's have a very nice glow!


----------



## baronbeehive

As we're on a Christmas vibe here.. albeit a tad early.. I will be the first to wish everyone here a MerryChristmas! 

Just been watching the news and the Oxford Covid vaccine has been providing it's positive results, the third to do so recently, lets hope we all have a much better new year now that there's light at the end of the tunnel!


----------



## baronbeehive

... and Sonic.. be kind to that goat lol!


----------



## UntilThen

Morning baron or should I call you beehive 🙄
Not so soon for Christmas cheers. I’m still at work !


----------



## baronbeehive

Good evening UntilThen, listening to nice music here!

You can call me what you like, baron, or beehive, it's names my sister and me used to call each other when we were kids lol!
.


----------



## UntilThen

Morning Baron, I think I might call my music stack Beehive. 🤗


----------



## JonathanKlein

What are the sonic differences and general benefits with the silver version of the Citadel with the 6P7S output tubes over the black version with the EL36 output tubes?


----------



## SonicTrance

JonathanKlein said:


> What are the sonic differences and general benefits with the silver version of the Citadel with the 6P7S output tubes over the black version with the EL36 output tubes?


The main difference between the silver Citadel and regular black version is aesthetics. You will get some more power output with the silver version but it's very little and not worth noting really. The components on the inside are the same. I'd get the silver version if you really like the aesthetics, the black version will sound just as good!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I'm designing a new amp in the coming months. It's going to be a SET amp with much more power than Oblivion and Citadel. Going to be great for speakers but also headphones of course! It's going to be called Infinity. I'll post here with updates on that!



There is hope that my Telefunken EL11 / EL12 spez tubes can be put to good use.   

What tubes will be used for this SET amp ?


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> There is hope that my Telefunken EL11 / EL12 spez tubes can be put to good use.
> 
> What tubes will be used for this SET amp ?


Maybe! I'm unable to find triode curves for those tubes though and no spice models to be found. I've designed Infinity with 6N2P input stage and 6P36S output stage. This gives high voltage swing AND high current. So, lots of power output. I'm looking forward to trying it out. It will be a big amp though. Both deeper and taller than the Oblivion/Citadel.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Maybe! I'm unable to find triode curves for those tubes though and no spice models to be found. I've designed Infinity with 6N2P input stage and 6P36S output stage. This gives high voltage swing AND high current. So, lots of power output. I'm looking forward to trying it out. It will be a big amp though. Both deeper and taller than the Oblivion/Citadel.



http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aai0072.htm

What I have in mind is EL11 as drivers and EL12 spez as power tubes. This is a layman talking. 

Both deeper and taller than the Oblivion/Citadel ? Good lord.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aai0072.htm
> 
> What I have in mind is EL11 as drivers and EL12 spez as power tubes. This is a layman talking.
> 
> Both deeper and taller than the Oblivion/Citadel ? Good lord.


That datasheet only has specs for the tube pentode connected. I'd run it in triode mode. Nothing is impossible though! I did find a LTspice model for the regular EL12. I modeled it in triode mode and it looks decently linear. Problem is you need a very high B+ to be able to get any amount of power out of it. But like I said, nothing is impossible =)  

The EL11 as driver should not be a problem. It's basically the same as EL3N, but with a different base, which is a good tube.


----------



## UntilThen

Sonic what is B+ haha.

Is this a transformer coupled amp?


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Sonic what is B+ haha.


B+ is the main high voltage rail  



UntilThen said:


> Is this a transformer coupled amp?


Yes! It's transformer coupled. The input stage is grid biased, then source follower (current buffer) driving the output tube grid, while also biasing the tube. The output is parafeed with russian film cap and output transformer.


----------



## Bonddam

I'm borrowing Joesph69 Custom Citadel I had to give up my spot in line. So WA33 for Citadel I'm happy with it. It's more lively sounding powers my 1266 TC no problem. I like the fact it sounds good off the quick listen I had. I wasn't expecting it to be able to handle the 1266 and the bass is there.


----------



## UntilThen

@Bonddam that’s a good endorsement for the Citadel.

I too feel that the Oblivion is rather special compared to all my other tube amps I’ve owned and paired with my many headphones. For one, Oblivion is devoid of tube hum or hiss. It’s a very quiet amp aside from sounding very good of course.


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> B+ is the main high voltage rail
> 
> 
> Yes! It's transformer coupled. The input stage is grid biased, then source follower (current buffer) driving the output tube grid, while also biasing the tube. The output is parafeed with russian film cap and output transformer.



Looks like a modern forward thinking design like the Oblivion, except the Oblivion wasn't transformer coupled if I remember right.

So how is the SET amp different, and is it your own design?


----------



## SonicTrance

baronbeehive said:


> Looks like a modern forward thinking design like the Oblivion,


Yes, it's basically the input stage in Oblivion, which is SE, times two. Instead of having the balanced LTP output stage like in Oblivion there's another SE stage in Infinity using the the 6P36S. Infinity will therefore have more of the old "tube sound" (more harmonics) than Oblivion. 



baronbeehive said:


> Oblivion wasn't transformer coupled if I remember right.


Oblivion is also transformer coupled. It has a parafeed output.



baronbeehive said:


> So how is the SET amp different, and is it your own design?


It's still MrCurwens original design but it will be a first trying to get this much power out of this design. That's the reason it's going to be a bigger chassis. To accommodate for larger heat sinks. Gyrator plate loads are great for getting the tubes a flat load line. The downside is that the gyrator FET needs to dissipate as much heat as the tube. If I run the tube at 10W the FET also dissipates 10W, hence big heat sinks =)


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Infinity will therefore have more of the old "tube sound" (more harmonics) than Oblivion.



That will be of interest to me and I am hoping that as a result of more of the old “tube sound”, the bass will be more weighted and prominent.


----------



## Bonddam

I think I’ll wait for that amp. WA33 is getting traded for my WA33 plus cash. I’m more into the Custom Citadel. The WA33 found slow and never paid attention to the music.


----------



## UntilThen

Bonddam said:


> I think I’ll wait for that amp. WA33 is getting traded for my WA33 plus cash. I’m more into the Custom Citadel. The WA33 found slow and never paid attention to the music.



When I review Oblivion against Studio Six and Glenn Super 9 OTL amp, I came to the same conclusion.

Oblivion is more articulate, airy and has a phenomenal soundstage. Pin point imaging and exceptional instruments separation.


----------



## Bonddam

Do the meters tell you the tubes are no good anymore?


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> That will be of interest to me and I am hoping that as a result of more of the old “tube sound”, the bass will be more weighted and prominent.


It will not sound as clean as the Oblivion because of the SE output stage, hence "tube sound". The frequency response will be pretty flat though. The higher power output will definitely give more slam into speakers though!
If you want some more bass out of the Oblivion don't be afraid of EQ. I sometimes use APO EQ in windows when I want some more bass slam. 



Bonddam said:


> Do the meters tell you the tubes are no good anymore?


They can do that, but the main purpose of the meters is to look cool  
If you see the meters start to drift (in either direction), one of the output tubes in that channel is going bad.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> If you want some more bass out of the Oblivion don't be afraid of EQ. I sometimes use APO EQ in windows when I want some more bass slam.



Why didn’t I think of that.😃 I will try when I get back to Canberra. Still holidaying in Hunter Valley.


----------



## MaggotBrain

Was deliberating tube amps for the 1266 and ZMF and stumbled onto this thread and it has been most helpful. Given that I listen to a lot of EDM and pop/rock I figured this would be a great option compared to the Woo and its less than five figure price would mitigate spousal castigation.  Just bought a Citadel on the classifieds and am crossing my fingers that it does the trick. I have a Master 9 as a solid state but was looking for a change of pace - compared to the ATC speakers I have, it always just sounded like a reference sound but paling in the shadow of the British beasts because the ATC is such a bada$$. Hoping this gets me to listening to my headphones more - and at least giving me the option to rock out when it's 5 am!


----------



## Bonddam

MaggotBrain said:


> Was deliberating tube amps for the 1266 and ZMF and stumbled onto this thread and it has been most helpful. Given that I listen to a lot of EDM and pop/rock I figured this would be a great option compared to the Woo and its less than five figure price would mitigate spousal castigation.  Just bought a Citadel on the classifieds and am crossing my fingers that it does the trick. I have a Master 9 as a solid state but was looking for a change of pace - compared to the ATC speakers I have, it always just sounded like a reference sound but paling in the shadow of the British beasts because the ATC is such a bada$$. Hoping this gets me to listening to my headphones more - and at least giving me the option to rock out when it's 5 am!


Tell me what you think as I’ve tested 1266 on Custom Citadel and think it’s good.


----------



## MaggotBrain

Bonddam said:


> Tell me what you think as I’ve tested 1266 on Custom Citadel and think it’s good.


I’m in Hawaii so probably a week before it gets here but I sure will once it gets here.  It is hard to find a reasonably priced balanced tube amp that can drive an Abyss so I hope this does the trick.  Being in Hawaii, I’m going on blind faith apart from the wisdom dispensed in this forum. I have never even heard a tube amp before but I had a medical emergency this weekend. I looked at my left thigh where my wallet is kept and felt a burning sensation.  I reached into said pocket and removed a bloated Wallet. Suffering from congestive failure, or dropsy as they would say in old-timely days, the poor fellow was so full of disposable cash it was ulcerating his lining and nearly bursting him nearly apart at the seams, causing excruciating pain.  In the name of providing medical care for said wallet, an incision was made and the excess contents were excised this past Black Friday weekend with surgical precision - kind of like when John Belushi spewed partially masticated mashed potato in Animal House when mimicking a popped zit. Wallet is in the post surgical recovery suite, expected to make a full recovery unless the Mrs. MaggotBrain gets exasperated on opening the next credit card bill and decides to hack his credit cards innards to bits.


----------



## UntilThen

I was on holiday in Hawaii with my wife in 2010 and it’s one of the highlights of my life’s experiences. The others being getting Glenn OTL amp just before Christmas of 2017 and getting Oblivion on the 23rd Dec 2019.

I remember being very busy and excited with Oblivion over Christmas. 😊


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> It's still MrCurwens original design but it will be a first trying to get this much power out of this design. That's the reason it's going to be a bigger chassis. To accommodate for larger heat sinks. Gyrator plate loads are great for getting the tubes a flat load line. The downside is that the gyrator FET needs to dissipate as much heat as the tube. If I run the tube at 10W the FET also dissipates 10W, hence big heat sinks =)



Very exciting! A flat load line means zero distortion potentially, that will be interesting to pair that with tube sound, I can't imagine what the end result could be. Could be tube rollers heaven haha!

My APPJ Set amp outputs 3.5W and is one of the trendy low powered SET's so it will be interesting to try to get that extra power out just to see what happens!
.


----------



## Bonddam

Tomas are targeting the power for the Susvara and 1266 in the 50 ohm range?


----------



## SonicTrance

Bonddam said:


> Tomas are targeting the power for the Susvara and 1266 in the 50 ohm range?


Power output in the 50 ohm range will also be much higher than with Oblivion/Citadel, but most power will be had into 8 ohms to power speakers. There's no reliable way to calculate exactly how much power, unfortunately. I need to build it and measure. We'll see how much power I (safely) can get out of it


----------



## MaggotBrain

Quick question - what are the dimensions of the Citadel? Trying to figure out how I have to shuffle my gear around with one coming in late this week. The measurements may dictate having to buy some longer cables so hoping to find out soon. Thank you so much.


----------



## SonicTrance

MaggotBrain said:


> Quick question - what are the dimensions of the Citadel? Trying to figure out how I have to shuffle my gear around with one coming in late this week. The measurements may dictate having to buy some longer cables so hoping to find out soon. Thank you so much.


The dimensions are specified in the website. I'm not allowed to link it but it's not hard to find.


----------



## MaggotBrain

SonicTrance said:


> The dimensions are specified in the website. I'm not allowed to link it but it's not hard to find.



I hope the sound is as impressive as the size! Turns out I could move stuff around so the amp can be on top and well ventilated so I will be good to go.


----------



## SonicTrance

Do you have the instructions for it? I can PM them to you otherwise.


----------



## MaggotBrain

SonicTrance said:


> Do you have the instructions for it? I can PM them to you otherwise.



The seller was kind enough to email them to me, but thank you for your consideration. I am sure I will have questions in the future given that I’m a tube newbie!


----------



## paradoxper

SonicTrance said:


> Power output in the 50 ohm range will also be much higher than with Oblivion/Citadel, but most power will be had into 8 ohms to power speakers. There's no reliable way to calculate exactly how much power, unfortunately. I need to build it and measure. We'll see how much power I (safely) can get out of it


You must have an estimated range you are hoping to shoot for into 8 ohms at least.


----------



## SonicTrance

paradoxper said:


> You must have an estimated range you are hoping to shoot for into 8 ohms at least.


Yes, of course. I shoot for around 8 W into 8 ohms. That should be able to drive most speakers to ear bursting levels. The thing is that the output transformers I use doesn't have specified secondary inductance, it varies depending on the load (and frequency of the signal). Because of that I can't simulate with different loads in LTspice. I do have some known points (from previous testing) and 8 W into 8 ohms should be doable. Testing when building is the way to go.


----------



## paradoxper

SonicTrance said:


> Yes, of course. I shoot for around 8 W into 8 ohms. That should be able to drive most speakers to ear bursting levels. The thing is that the output transformers I use doesn't have specified secondary inductance, it varies depending on the load (and frequency of the signal). Because of that I can't simulate with different loads in LTspice. I do have some known points (from previous testing) and 8 W into 8 ohms should be doable. Testing when building is the way to go.


So that's nominally double what the Citadel outputs. However, this more with speakers in-mind. 4-ish watts isn't too bad for those pesky planars though.


----------



## DecentLevi (Dec 1, 2020)

SonicTrance said:


> Power output in the 50 ohm range will also be much higher than with Oblivion/Citadel, but most power will be had into 8 ohms to power speakers. There's no reliable way to calculate exactly how much power, unfortunately. I need to build it and measure. We'll see how much power I (safely) can get out of it


Looks like a fantastic design on the way, and maybe I'm lucky to have still waited. Someone on here mentioned they didn't like the Oblivion or Citadel pairing with the HEDDphone - I would be very interested to see the pairing tried again being the new amp is supposed to put out even more power around 50 ohms, which is just what those need. It should also make a good pairing for the Rosson Audio Rad-0 planars.

Also SonicTrance, another word in favor of the possibility to use EL12 tubes in the future amp. Compatibility with this tube type would also open other doors possibly with EL11 and using adapters EL12 Spez, EL3N and maybe even the great KT66 / 88 / 150 tubes! These tubes are favored by basically all who try them (including me) and AFAIK most measure well. Also I have a 'bias' that larger tubes sound better. It may not have any scientific backing, but my personal experience with tubes has always favored the larger ones for a larger soundstage and more sense of 'air' and even instrument separation. Miniature 9-pin tubes are great as well for more of a detailed / precise and punchy sound so each have their merits.


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> Looks like a fantastic design on the way, and maybe I'm lucky to have still waited. Someone on here mentioned they didn't like the Oblivion or Citadel pairing with the HEDDphone - I would be very interested to see the pairing tried again being the new amp is supposed to put out even more power around 50 ohms, which is just what those need. It should also make a good pairing for the Rosson Audio Rad-0 planars.
> 
> Also SonicTrance, another word in favor of the possibility to use EL12 tubes in the future amp. Compatibility with this tube type would also open other doors possibly with EL11 and using adapters EL12 Spez, EL3N and maybe even the great KT66 / 88 / 150 tubes! These tubes are favored by basically all who try them (including me) and AFAIK most measure well. Also I have a 'bias' that larger tubes sound better. It may not have any scientific backing, but my personal experience with tubes has always favored the larger ones for a larger soundstage and more sense of 'air' and even instrument separation. Miniature 9-pin tubes are great as well for more of a detailed / precise and punchy sound so each have their merits.


The first Infinity I'll build will have the 6N2P (or 6AV6) input and 6P36S output. I've chosen those two tubes with regards to internal resistance, gain, availability and cost. In that amp there's no possibility for tube rolling as I use grid (fixed) bias. With that said I have no problem building a custom amp using other tubes! Keep in mind though that the amp will sound best if designed around a certain tube.


----------



## DecentLevi (Dec 2, 2020)

Thanks @SonicTrance I love how you focus on the best quality / design possible and without compromises... _go big or go home_, as the saying goes   I will definitely keep you in mind for a possible future build around certain tubes, or would order one of the newer models coming out - depending on how things are goin.

Truth be told guys I'm still waiting on a darn Glenn tube amp! That's why I've yet to order any Ultrasonic amp. Already well over one year and although I've gotten a hint here & there about a possible timeline, still no build has begun! I don't want to speak lowly of Glenn as he is a very noble man and master craftsman, but just thought I'd put this out here to see what anyone here thinks. Both 2359Glenn and Ultrasonic amps cost around the same (considering my customization options) and from what I gather from the impeccable reviews on this thread, the Ultrasonic amps are incomparable to basically anything out there bar-none. For me personally however I have a 'lot invested' in the potential Glenn amp - even though there's no end in sight I'm not wanting to jump ship there, having around $1,000 already invested in rare / top-flight vintage tubes, as well as a huge box of handcrafted adapters specifically for it. Going for a an amp here and getting in a new waiting que though would possibly delay me even more in the long run. Feel free to be frank and let me know any opinions on all this.


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> Thanks @SonicTrance I love how you focus on the best quality / design possible and without compromises... _go big or go home_, as the saying goes  I will definitely keep you in mind for a possible future build around certain tubes, or would order one of the newer models coming out - depending on how things are goin.





DecentLevi said:


> Going for a an amp here and getting in a new waiting que though would possibly delay me even more in the long run.


Thanks for the kind words! I won't comment on your Glenn build but if you want an amp from me I can build it in February!


----------



## foefoe

If SonicTrance says February it means February. I ordered my Oblivion in Feb, was Mr. November and I received the amp in the middle of November a few weeks ago


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Thanks for the kind words! I won't comment on your Glenn build but if you want an amp from me I can build it in February!



Like all professionals, Sonic won't comment about another builder. Neither would I, especially on another amp thread. 

A little story. When I over used my Glenn OTL amp sockets by excessive tube rolling I brought the amp to http://www.thefactoryaudio.com/ to have the sockets replaced and some capacitors and resistors replace with better quality ones. When it's finished and I went there to collect it, I ask the engineer how it sound? Here's the reply.

'I won't tell you whether McIntosh or Audio Note sound better. That's not my job. That's for you to find out for yourself'. Also when he had finished the repair, I ask him whether he listen to it using a headphone and how he like the sound. He told me, 'I don't listen to it'. I looked at him in astonishment !!! I said, 'What ! then how do you know it works?' Smiling he took me over to the oscilloscope and connected the amp to it. He then showed me the signal waves and said, 'That is how I know it works and works well. As to whether it sounds good, that's for you to decide'.

So that's a lesson learned. Never try to impress your technician that your amp sounds superb because he has heard them all and he is not going to tell you which sound the best. 

It's 20 days to Christmas ! I hope you're enjoying life, especially audio ! I can tell you though I am and I still love and enjoy the Oblivion.

Ah another comment. Sonic told me that I will have Oblivion for review before Christmas of 2019 and he's right. It came on the 23rd Dec 2019. How's that for precision.   

Another thing. If you ask Sonic a question here, he will answer and usually very promptly. Communications from him is top notched, pretty much like how his amps turned out.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> It's 20 days to Christmas ! I hope you're enjoying life, especially audio ! I can tell you though I am and I still love and enjoy the Oblivion.



Excellent to hear .

Yes feeling good, Christmas shopping done, more or less, a month earlier than usual, now relaxing to Sandrine Kiberlain which has put me in such a good mood!

Nice friendly thread, great products, good to hear people enjoying their audio, covid 19 on the way out, we're having our first vaccine doses rolled out here in the UK now, why wouldn't you feel good!

I hope you haven't changed the name of your beehive stack to something silly lol!


----------



## UntilThen

Hey Baron you're in UK. I'll come visit and you can come visit me too. As for Beehive stack, I don't think it will last beyond 2020. I have to call it something else.


----------



## UntilThen

Btw Baron, I play golf on the weekends and if you're wondering how I play, watch this video.


----------



## UntilThen

This is my friend and he loves Dire Straits. I hooked up my Rega RP8 to Oblivion and his tail never stops wagging.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Hey Baron you're in UK. I'll come visit and you can come visit me too. As for Beehive stack, I don't think it will last beyond 2020. I have to call it something else.



Yes, sounds like a good idea .


----------



## Maxx134

DecentLevi said:


> Someone on here mentioned they didn't like the Oblivion or Citadel pairing with the HEDDphone - I would be very interested to see the pairing tried again being the new amp is supposed to put out even more power around 50 ohms, which is just what those need


From hearing the hedd with various units, I personally don't think it had to do with the amp pairings at all, but instead to its own signature sound.

For me, the criticism was only viewed in direct comparison to the other reference headphones(abyss, Hd800) at the time, so actually was an observation of where it stands as a reference, in regards to the others, not in general.

So in general, I believe it should be regarded as an above average headphone, as it had an initial alluring &  impressive sound. 

All top headphones have their own "presentation".
I actually think the Hedd would help alot with softer or less resolving amps.



DecentLevi said:


> from what I gather from the impeccable reviews on this thread, the Ultrasonic amps are incomparable to basically anything out there bar-none.


I think more like performance per dollar. Getting end-game level sound without the multi-thousand dollar price tag.

What the most elite tube amps, have in common, are all the refinement of tubes (imaging, soundstage, holography, etc) without the  excessive harmonics or thickness of the majority of the others, but instead, harmonic  cleanliness. 

To me, this is what you get here with ultrasonic studios amps,  and why it is in this league with the best.




DecentLevi said:


> having around $1,000 already invested in rare / top-flight vintage tubes, as well as a huge box of handcrafted adapters specifically for it.


That investment would not be lost with  custom request on any tube amp manufacturer.




UntilThen said:


> So that's a lesson learned. Never try to impress your technician that your amp sounds superb because he has heard them all and he is not going to tell you which sound the best.


That's a wise person that realizes the amp is a link in the chain and bigger picture would be the  whole system/headphones synery.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> That's a wise person that realizes the amp is a link in the chain and bigger picture would be the whole system/headphones synery.



Absolutely and furthermore I might add - depends on an individual preference.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Absolutely and furthermore I might add - depends on an individual preference.



Correct!

This is the main reason why I'm very happy with my amps atm, because the sound signature is one that I absolutely love and wouldn't want to change... except for the Oblivion of course.
.


----------



## baronbeehive (Dec 7, 2020)

Maxx134 said:


> What the most elite tube amps, have in common, are all the refinement of tubes (imaging, soundstage, holography, etc) without the  excessive harmonics or thickness of the majority of the others, but instead, harmonic  cleanliness.



Yes exactly, which is what we have been trying to achieve on the LD Supermods thread I think with a degree of success.. and what the amps on this thread achieve spectacularly by all accounts!


----------



## UntilThen (Dec 7, 2020)

baronbeehive said:


> Correct!
> 
> This is the main reason why I'm very happy with my amps atm, because the sound signature is one that I absolutely love and wouldn't want to change... except for the Oblivion of course.
> .



You wouldn't happen to have a McIntosh or Audio Note, would you?  

I have a Sansui - or Mountain Water.


----------



## Maxx134 (Dec 7, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> You wouldn't happen to have a McIntosh or Audio Note, would you?
> 
> I have a Sansui - or Mountain Water.


Lol, I have noted when testing with some good older model, solid state amps, is that while they have realism, they do not have the clarity of the newer gear about last 5yrs.
It was an observation when trying out speaker amps for the Raal headphones.

Many I know moved on from the raal, but the point is that the old stuff no matter how expensive it was, is pretty different from today we have such clean and clear amps out.

I believe even old school amps had great sound but alot more harmonics than most amps today, and it was normal back then. Yet now, not the norm.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Lol, I have noted when testing with some good older model, solid state amps, is that while they have realism, they do not have the clarity of the newer gear about last 5yrs.
> It was an observation when trying out speaker amps for the Raal headphones.
> 
> Many I know moved on from the raal, but the point is that the old stuff no matter how expensive it was, is pretty different from today we have such clean and clear amps out.
> ...



Only a mother can love vintage amps / receivers and that's a joke because some vintage receivers look gorgeous. It's definitely not the last word in clarity and details in the year 2020 - incidentally also the year known as COVID-20. However vintage amps have that unique sound loved by many - hearkens back to the golden age of the 70s audio. 

Skylab himself stated that he has 2 audio systems. A very nice digital modern system with the B&W Nautilus speakers but he spends more time enjoying his basement vintage system of Pioneer sx1980, Denon TT and vintage speakers.

When I mentioned McIntosh and Audio Note, it's because they were brought up by the technician. I'm not necessary a fan of either but wouldn't mind if they were thrown my way. However I do like the alpha range of the Sansui amps just like some will like the Yamaha NS1000 speakers or NS2000.


----------



## SonicTrance

Here's another Oblivion complete! This one has more of the Silver Citadel layout with the small meters and tube layout. I think it came out great!


----------



## UntilThen

Really beautiful when lit up. By far the best looking Oblivion.


----------



## DecentLevi

SonicTrance said:


> (...)
> I'm designing a new amp in the coming months. It's going to be a SET amp with much more power than Oblivion and Citadel. Going to be great for speakers but also headphones of course! It's going to be called Infinity. I'll post here with updates on that!





SonicTrance said:


> Yes, it's basically the input stage in Oblivion, which is SE, times two. Instead of having the balanced LTP output stage like in Oblivion there's another SE stage in Infinity using the the 6P36S. Infinity will therefore have more of the old "tube sound" (more harmonics) than Oblivion.
> 
> Oblivion is also transformer coupled. It has a parafeed output.
> 
> It's still MrCurwens original design but it will be a first trying to get this much power out of this design. That's the reason it's going to be a bigger chassis. To accommodate for larger heat sinks. Gyrator plate loads are great for getting the tubes a flat load line. The downside is that the gyrator FET needs to dissipate as much heat as the tube. If I run the tube at 10W the FET also dissipates 10W, hence big heat sinks =)



Has anyone gotten to compare the Oblivion or Citadel vs. the new Infinity from Ultrasonic Studios? Even impressions from a brief listen would be interesting. 

Also about the Infinity: How many power and driver tube sockets does it have (if it uses both power / driver tube topology)? Can it use more power tubes (EG 4 instead of 2), and would there be any benefit to that? And can the tube class (type) be customized (without too much difficulty to implement)?


----------



## UntilThen

Infinity hasn't been born yet.


----------



## SonicTrance (Dec 14, 2020)

DecentLevi said:


> Has anyone gotten to compare the Oblivion or Citadel vs. the new Infinity from Ultrasonic Studios? Even impressions from a brief listen would be interesting.
> 
> Also about the Infinity: How many power and driver tube sockets does it have (if it uses both power / driver tube topology)? Can it use more power tubes (EG 4 instead of 2), and would there be any benefit to that? And can the tube class (type) be customized (without too much difficulty to implement)?





UntilThen said:


> Infinity hasn't been born yet.


UntilThen is right. It hasn't been born yet so there has been no comparisons. I have built the SE design before but not like I plan to build Infinity. I'll build one for myself first to test and see how it performs. Then I'll build for other people.

As far as number of sockets etc. The stock version will have either one input tube (6N2P) or two (6AV6)
Anything can be customized though.

Edit: one power tube / channel


----------



## BzzzzzT

I thought I would post my impressions of the Citadel, as I love this amp. I have had the amp for over a month and a half and I have used it for several hours almost everyday while working and chilling. Below is my logic on purchasing this amp and my impressions of it.


When I first saw Tomas's amps, I was really curious. The Little Dot amps were also my first headphone amps and Tomas was very good at modding them. So it felt like I already know him as a friend. When I saw MrCurwen's parafeed circuit executed by Tomas, I was both curious and very impressed. I have built a couple of tube amps and this parafeed circuit addressed the many unique things about using tubes. Speaking generally, in my opinion it was sort of a culmination of many great circuits created by many of the great tube amp builders on DIY audio etc. I have no engineering background and I did not feel confident pulling a build like this off, as many parts were unfamiliar to me and I was really busy with work, with no time for more skull sweat. I just loved the look and layout of this amp, the tubes it used and the power output. So I placed an order quickly.


Tomas was great to work with and before I knew it, the amp was finished. Shipping was extremely quick from Sweden to the US and the amp was packed perfectly. The amplifier is really beautiful to me. I like it's thick aluminum black anodized case. The finish is a beautiful brushed black matte and the aluminum is machined very well. The meters at the top of the amp both look great and are handy to see the state of the tubes. They layout and soldering inside the amp is really good. I have worked on enough amps for myself and friends and this amplifier is much better than most. The components are really high quality and the large Russian military paper in oil capacitors, were built to a very high standard and most use a better quality foil of either aluminum or copper for their conductive plates. The tubes used are in the amp are EL36 and 6SL7 for input and driving the EL36. The EL36 is a great power tube! The 6sl7 sounds great. One thing to keep in mind is that this tube can be noise prone and because headphones are so sensitive, you might notice a noisy tube. You can tap the tube assertively with a hard object if it is noisy and hopefully things will shift and the tube will quiet down. I put modern JJ tubes in mine and they are dead silent. Sovetek/New Sensor also makes a great 6sl7. The modern 6sl7 is superior to even the mil-spec tubes, as they use design improvements that make the tube more stable and this dramatically decreases noise over the old designs.


Some have stated that this unique amp is a hybrid amp. That is not really the case, as the solid state aspect is used to drive the tubes optimally. There is no solid state gain stage on this amplifier, hence it is a tube amp. It is not a “classic-directly-heated-super-lush-retro-oldschool-purist-steampunked-voltage-saggier-than-a-witche's-tits-amp;” it uses solid state, to give it superior operating characteristics, that engineers did not have access to back in the days of yore. Just having a bit of fun, as all my amps were classic. It is very common to use a tansistor to provide current, on the better designed modern tube amps, to give an example. It does use point-to-point connections for the purists out there. As a BIG plus, the circuit does not need expensive output transformers to achieve the best results. This is one of the reasons tube amplifiers are so expensive. Output transformers are the biggest cost of any good tube amp. If you want luxury high quality Japanese transformers wound by a transformer master or the best Swedish R-core output transformers, wound with silver conductive angel hair, expect to pay $$$$s. Due to the circuit, there is no need to use some crazy expensive transformer, to get the highest quality output. You could go OTL, but lets not go there....


One could ask why I bought this amp. I have a really great solid state amp that puts out approximately 5w and uses very nice discreet OPAMPs for audio; using 300MHZ output transistors compared to the typical 20 – 50MHZ typically used in audio. Having a high slew rate, lots of open-loop gain from the two-pole compensation and a incredibly low noise floor, makes this a very nice transparent amp! Blah, blah, blah; enough with the specs onto the Citadel! I bought this amp because I wanted a transparent tube amp that could deliver the current under load (bass) and handle quick transients for transparency. So basically an amp that acts solid state with tube harmonics and presentation. The most important reason though is harmonics. All natural sounds have harmonics. Tubes add harmonics to sound through distortion and from other things like voltage sag, which Tomas's amp does not suffer from. Don't listen to some know-it-all engineer who says it's subjective. It is not and they clearly don't understand how the ear works and have never studied music production where harmonics are used by sound engineers and artists all the time. Because of this harmonic distortion, sounds are easier to hear with the added harmonics. There is no subjective jive ass magic here. If your ear can't hear distortion, you need hearing aids or less libations at the end of the day. Below is a video of a sonic exciter that adds harmonics to an audio signal. This is used in production to add weight to bass without going down further and makes highs come forward in the mix. I use both tubes and an exciter with my stuff too. You can even use them with your own tunes/audio. Just don't add too much secret sauce, or things get harsh.





How sonic and harmonic complexity makes sound more audible:





So going back to my logic above; this amp does everything I wanted it too. Actually it was better than I expected! I have heard amps from most of the boutique and big name makers through local HeadFi meets and from audiophool minded friends. All circuit designs carry certain general characteristics. I preferred push-pull amps for my own builds. I wish more builders would not poo poo PP. PP gives you a tighter sound with superior bass compared to say a SET or OTL. It gets tighter with better low end as you crank up the bias (MORE POWER!). The tradeoff is less lushness and sound-stage compared to the other two circuits and heat. Lushness and sound-stage in my experience from building stuff, is also greatly influenced by the voltage sag from the rectifier as it sags under load. This voltage sag can create some desirable lushness, as these can sag by as much as 40 volts or more under load! Solid state rectifiers will keep up with current demands and not sag, but many don't like having less of the characteristics that voltage sag provides. Yes I know diodes have switching, as someone will point out. I can't hear it though and I think you lose more with sag IMO. The Citadel was a perfect presentation of sound for me. When I compare it to my solid state amp, everything is there and it sounds solid state because of the transparency and the attack of the leading edge of sounds, like you get with good solid state. This is especially true with the bass. The attack is actually ever so slightly more aggressive with the Citadel on bass than my solid state, which surprised me! Normally to get better bass you generally go for more power, which equals more heat, but does not means the current delivery will be much better for demanding drivers, as the speed of delivery is also important. This is also determined by the circuit and this can get complex. These impressions were on my Hifiman Arya's which are not efficient and more current hungry; they like a more powerful amp to get their best. My 5w solid state did have less break-up with really low sub-bass at higher volumes, but this is at levels on the Arya that would damage your hearing or be rocking out loud. I listen to and make to lots of electronic and synth stuff and I like a solid tight amplifier. I have also played acoustic folk for almost 20 years so the timbre of a tube amp and this amps voice is very accurate and pleasing to me while capturing the magic.


This amp is incredibly transparent. It is just as transparent as my solid state, but herein lies the magic. The Citadel presents things in such a way with it's harmonics and nimble circuit, that allow me to notice them. I would listen to songs and say “hey I never noticed that rhythm” or elements were somewhat obscure and now I can tell exactly what it is plainly. The separation and presentation in my mind is such, that when I close my eyes, sometimes it feels as if I could hear around the sound like walking around it. I know a crappy analogy, but this amp really does allow you to move and hear through the music which is incredibly pleasing! It does this better than any amp I have ever heard. It does it so well, that even with it's distortion, which is minor, I will use this to go over mixes to hear things I might miss after moving from my SS amp to double check. I bought this amp for listening to music though. If I was to try to describe it's sound I would say “it has the lushness and sonic beauty of a SET amp, with the control and balls of solid state! I have heard so many amps and this does it better to me than any I have heard. I use it everyday and it's addictive. Also, another thing I forgot to mention, but something that is really important to me, is heat. This amp does not radiate much heat! This is awesome as I live in the desert and I can't have a fireplace  in my room. Tomas runs the tubes gently so they don't make much heat and this also gives them a very long lifespan. I can believe how cool this runs!










There are some thing to consider if you are thinking of this amp. This amp seems like it would power almost all headphones fine. Due to the human malware afflicting us, I have not heard many different cans on it. The only cans that I think will be problematic are very current hungry high power headphones. If it likes speaker taps, you should probably use solid state as nothing puts out current better. Inefficient drivers all like lots and lots of current. If you can get by with less power and want more lushness the Oblivion would be a good choice. The Oblivion puts out less power, so it might not have the total control over the low end for more inefficient drivers. This would probably make the Citadel a better choice if this is important to you. I think it's great Tomas offers two flavors of amps.  I feel his work is very reasonably priced, given it's very high quality build and even more stellar sound! To me this amp is perfect and I plan to keep it forever! I am very happy I purchased it and I look forward to seeing Tomas's future work and the upcoming speaker amp!


----------



## DecentLevi

@BzzzzzT I enjoyed reading your review and look forward to trying an Ultrasonic amp. I didn't watch the videos yet but let me tell you we definitely have something in common about electronic music. Though I also listen to acoustic genres, I'm also deeply into the electronic scene (collecting, research, sound design, producing and sometimes DJ for fun.). It's actually all for fun and you can check out some of my work here including lossless download there too. Sometime I'll hit you up about some ideas and stuff because I've been looking to transition from a digital to more of a hardware setup, and also use (oh brother... digital  ) saturation effects.

Your description of its' sound was quite impressive. Made me curious which DAC you're using with it; if not all for monitoring use with your modular setup?
And did you get good sound out of it as a speaker amp (if it has one)?
Also from your description it would seem that (perhaps) the Citadel has more authoritative bass compared to the Oblivion. But that's just my guess from what I've read here.

I'm actually thinking of going for Tomas's newer amp design Infinity. Though I don't fully understand the design, it seems to have even more power and at least some more options for tube rolling... especially so depending if you get it customized around a tube class that has lots of similar interchange types. But maybe you can fill me in on something - for a headphone like the Heinz "HEDDphone" or Rosson Rad-0, would you say these would likely pair well with Citadel, or possibly even better with the more powerful Infinity amp? I'm not sure if these are efficient or need much current, but here are the specs:
 - Rosson Audio Rad-0: 29 ohms and a sensitivity of 98dB/mw (planar driver)
 - HEDDphone: 42 ohms and 87 dB SPL for 1 mW (unique AMT driver)

(maybe @SonicTrance can answer that too). Thanks


----------



## DecentLevi

SonicTrance said:


> UntilThen is right. It hasn't been born yet so there has been no comparisons. I have built the SE design before but not like I plan to build Infinity. I'll build one for myself first to test and see how it performs. Then I'll build for other people.
> 
> As far as number of sockets etc. The stock version will have either one input tube (6N2P) or two (6AV6)
> Anything can be customized though.
> ...


Oh wow no comparison of the former amps to Infinity was made yet, so I guess it makes this sort of a gamble. But you know amp designs like almost nobody so it should sound great. You did say it will sound more 'tubey' than Oblivion. I suppose that can change depending on which tubes are used with it right? And I think you said that the Infinity has more power for speakers but the headphone load is about the same as the Citadel?

I think I would prefer mine with the same amount of sockets as your other amps: 2x drivers and 4x powers (6 total).


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> - Rosson Audio Rad-0: 29 ohms and a sensitivity of 98dB/mw (planar driver)


Very efficient, easy to drive.



DecentLevi said:


> - HEDDphone: 42 ohms and 87 dB SPL for 1 mW (unique AMT driver)


Not efficient, needs more power for same amount of volume.

There had been good reviews on Oblivion with Abyss which has about the same efficiency as the HEDD IIRC. I think it's about personal preference if you like the pairing or not. 



DecentLevi said:


> You did say it will sound more 'tubey' than Oblivion. I suppose that can change depending on which tubes are used with it right?


Yes, the less linear the tube is the more distortion it will produce. 



DecentLevi said:


> And I think you said that the Infinity has more power for speakers but the headphone load is about the same as the Citadel?


Infinity will have much more power than Citadel and Oblivion across the board. Both for speakers and headphones.



DecentLevi said:


> I think I would prefer mine with the same amount of sockets as your other amps: 2x drivers and 4x powers (6 total).


Citadel and Oblivion have two output tubes per channel because they're balanced amps. The output tubes operate in push pull. Infinity will be single ended so only one output tube per channel. I could put two tubes in parallel per channel but it won't benefit anything besides looks. I'd run them cooler than a single tube so the output power would remain the same. Otherwise there will be too much heat. Parallel output tubes are only really used in OTL amps to lower the output impedance. My amps have parafeed output so it's not necessary.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Oh wow no comparison of the former amps to Infinity was made yet, so I guess it makes this sort of a gamble.



Nope.   It's not a gamble.

Sonic's reply...
*I'll build one for myself first to test and see how it performs.* Then I'll build for other people. 

If anyone can compare Citadel and the forth coming Infinity, it would be Sonic. I believe by now his ears are good enough as he has already produced many Oblivion and Citadel for so many happy customers.


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## DecentLevi

Thanks @SonicTrance thanks, I replied by PM and about your message above:
So you mean the Infinity uses only 4 tubes total (2x driver + 2x power)? My experience with OTL tube amps has been that more power tubes in parallel allows for better soundstage, and instrument separation / 'air'. So are you certain that only 2 power tubes would yield the same good result as 4 in that design? 

Since the HEDDphone (which I don't have just yet) is less efficient, looks like it should pair well with the Infinity.
And it's SE so it won't have balanced input, but can probably still have 4-pin balanced output right?


----------



## UntilThen

BzzzzzT said:


> I can believe how cool this runs!



First of all, well done on an articulated written impression of the Citadel. The above statement is probably not that important in the scheme of things but since I agree with all your points on the sonic qualities of this amp, I'd just like to single out that this amp runs really cool.



BzzzzzT said:


> If you can get by with less power and want more lushness the Oblivion would be a good choice.



Absolutely. While I have not heard Citadel, I've not found the Oblivion lacking in driving my LCD-3f, LCD-X, ZMF Verite LTD Pheasant wood, HD800, Beyer T1.2, HD650 and my son's HiFiMan Arya.

It's been almost a year now since I got Oblivion. I remember last Christmas not for the turkey, presents and friends & family but for Oblivion that arrived on the 23rd of Dec 2019 and the weeks that follow there after. All of the above headphones sound splendid with Oblivion.

I still can't get over how good it looks on the top shelf of my rack ..... besides sounding great ! This picture was taken only 2 days ago.


----------



## UntilThen

If ever there is a photogenic amp with a headphone, this would be it. I don't use my HD800 much these days but now it sounds almost too good with Oblivion. I'm glad I didn't sell off the HD800.


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## UntilThen

You can turn HD800 around and it will still look as good with Oblivion. Now you can vote which of the 2 pictures look better because I'm selling it to Sennheiser for their historical archives.


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## SonicTrance

I'll answer your PM tonight after work. This I can answer now.



DecentLevi said:


> So you mean the Infinity uses only 4 tubes total (2x driver + 2x power)?


Yes.



DecentLevi said:


> My experience with OTL tube amps has been that more power tubes in parallel allows for better soundstage, and instrument separation / 'air'. So are you certain that only 2 power tubes would yield the same good result as 4 in that design?


It's apples and oranges. You can't compare OTL design vs my amps as they're totally different topologys. But, I'm certain that output tubes in parallel will not yield better results than a single output tube in Infinity. 



DecentLevi said:


> Since the HEDDphone (which I don't have just yet) is less efficient, looks like it should pair well with the Infinity.
> And it's SE so it won't have balanced input, but can probably still have 4-pin balanced output right?


I can put a 4pin XLR output on it for convenience but it will still be single ended.


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## BzzzzzT

DecentLevi said:


> @BzzzzzT I enjoyed reading your review and look forward to trying an Ultrasonic amp. I didn't watch the videos yet but let me tell you we definitely have something in common about electronic music. Though I also listen to acoustic genres, I'm also deeply into the electronic scene (collecting, research, sound design, producing and sometimes DJ for fun.). It's actually all for fun and you can check out some of my work here including lossless download there too. Sometime I'll hit you up about some ideas and stuff because I've been looking to transition from a digital to more of a hardware setup, and also use (oh brother... digital  ) saturation effects.
> 
> Your description of its' sound was quite impressive. Made me curious which DAC you're using with it; if not all for monitoring use with your modular setup?
> And did you get good sound out of it as a speaker amp (if it has one)?
> ...





DecentLevi said:


> @BzzzzzT I enjoyed reading your review and look forward to trying an Ultrasonic amp. I didn't watch the videos yet but let me tell you we definitely have something in common about electronic music. Though I also listen to acoustic genres, I'm also deeply into the electronic scene (collecting, research, sound design, producing and sometimes DJ for fun.). It's actually all for fun and you can check out some of my work here including lossless download there too. Sometime I'll hit you up about some ideas and stuff because I've been looking to transition from a digital to more of a hardware setup, and also use (oh brother... digital  ) saturation effects.
> 
> Your description of its' sound was quite impressive. Made me curious which DAC you're using with it; if not all for monitoring use with your modular setup?
> And did you get good sound out of it as a speaker amp (if it has one)?
> ...




Hey DecentLevi! I'm glad you liked the review! Your music is really awesome! I like the rhythm and the chill uptempo sound it has! I am still fairly new to recording music and synths; I just got an interface to give you an idea. I would be happy to give any advice I can on equipment, but you definitely have way more experience in electronic music, mixing and recording than me. I don't feel qualified to give much advice on music equipment! I played Irish music on the whistle and uilleann pipes for many years. I came down with a rare auto-immune disease a few years ago that makes my joints sensitive to inflammation, if used excessively. The pipes and whistle were just too hard on my hands. They even bugged my hands when I was in my 20s, as they require a lot of dexterity from your fingers. My fingers did not like the motion and I only really played music with friends as I did not want to inflame my hands any further. I was not able to play music regularly and this made me really depressed. I was a big fan of synth music and electronic music. So I saved up the money to put together a modular system and started learning the keyboard. This does not give my hands any issues and I love the creative possibilities and having an instrument that can play chords! I have just started learning about recording and mixing stuff as I am working on learning both instruments. I will say, hardware does sound awesome to me! There is also something about using a device physically. I have trouble doing everything on the computer.

As I started researching stuff, I learned about different techniques of adding harmonics to sounds and how the ear perceives sound and it's sensitivity to harmonics; I now had a better understanding of why tubes tend to flesh out details and provide a more realistic sound through harmonics. This is also something that is reproducible with equipment. There always seems to be some engineer on a forum saying tubes are subjective or that almost any distortion is bad. There are never any musicians or studio people to chime in. I felt I had to mention it because people will ask “why do you want an amp with a tube and solid state like sound signature?” At the end of the day, it's all about enjoying music!


I'm using the RME ADI-2 for my DAC. I am really happy with it! RME also builds really solid stuff. The amp on it is also really nice! I don't have much experience with many different DACs, but it was a definite step up from my Arcam irDAC. I used to own a Chord Mojo. That DAC gave me nothing but frustration. I also liked the RME's sound more than the Chord.


I don't think you could go wrong with either the Citadel or Infinity! My amp does not have speaker outs as I bought some used powered studio monitors to get better placement and save space. I would lean towards the Infinity if your speakers need the power. How sensitive are your speakers? My 90db Yamaha NS-1000 monitors I used for over 10 years, only needed several watts. I powered them with a 7w set and a 10w push pull and they had more than enough volume to shake the walls.


----------



## BzzzzzT

UntilThen said:


> First of all, well done on an articulated written impression of the Citadel. The above statement is probably not that important in the scheme of things but since I agree with all your points on the sonic qualities of this amp, I'd just like to single out that this amp runs really cool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm glad you liked the review. I hate reviewing and articulating impressions of audio equipment. I wanted to give my personal logic for this amp after playing around with tubes and hearing many amps, along with the sound signature that appeals to me personally. Reviews are always biased by one's personal preferences, so I felt I had to state the sound I was looking for and my logic. Someone else might be looking for something different and just saying the amp was great would not be constructive for someone who had a different sound signature or preferences for an amp in mind. I love tube amps because they offer so many varied sound signatures. What I did not want to convey is qualities like lushness, a solid state like sound, or using components like a tube rectifier to be negative or pejorative in any way. Its just a preference for what tube sound one would prefer. I listen to a lot of electronic so this amp appeals to me. Some other amps may appeal more to someone who listens to different styles of music than me. I felt comparing it to a modern solid state amp that measures very well, would provide a sort of reference to go by.


It was really hard deciding between the Citadel and the Oblivion. I think they will both sound equally excellent. I went with the Citadel because I like the tubes it used and I was able to get some backups for a decent price. I also felt the extra power would help. I personally feel there are differences, but the overall character of this awesome circuit will dominate and both amps will edge slightly towards different preferences of sound. I also feel that the Oblivion will have no problems driving almost everything out there.


I do agree with your impressions and how Maxx felt about the sound. It is also nice having an amp where tubes do not have dramatically different sounds. It removes the neurosis of tube rolling, which is awesome! I tried different tubes and the differences were extremely minor. That is definitely a first for any tube amp I have heard!


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## foefoe

What a great time I had in the last 2 weeks with that combo (Oblivion + Abyss TC 1266) and... Tom Petty, The Style Council, Sade, Squeeze, Roxette, B52's, Fleetwood Mac, Prefab Sprout and... a mind-blowing Polish band Psychocukier. What I am only missing from my Oblivion are that posh metallic chassis and a better quality volume potentiometer


----------



## UntilThen

Ummm a guy who loves his Abyss TC 1266 with Oblivion. I got to have that headphone one day !

I just bought a HiFiMan HE1000se to use it with Oblivion. I think @joseph69  likes his HE1000V2 with his custom Citadel. Looking forward to it as soon as Rudolph sends it to me.


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## mordy

foefoe said:


> What a great time I had in the last 2 weeks with that combo (Oblivion + Abyss TC 1266) and... Tom Petty, The Style Council, Sade, Squeeze, Roxette, B52's, Fleetwood Mac, Prefab Sprout and... a mind-blowing Polish band Psychocukier. What I am only missing from my Oblivion are that posh metallic chassis and a better quality volume potentiometer


Can you explain to me what a better quality volume potentiometer accomplishes - is it a more precise volume setting? Or does it make for better sound?


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## foefoe

would be nicer from only from that mundane-usage only perspective, nothing to do with the sound quality.


----------



## UntilThen

I like a volume control that is smooth and Oblivion’s knob is smooth as that on Studio Six.

The gold point potentiometer on my previous Glenn OTL has a click feel.

I actually like both types and don’t really mind either.


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## baronbeehive

foefoe said:


> What a great time I had in the last 2 weeks with that combo (Oblivion + Abyss TC 1266) and... Tom Petty, The Style Council, Sade, Squeeze, Roxette, B52's, Fleetwood Mac, Prefab Sprout and... a mind-blowing Polish band Psychocukier.



Ha.. most of my favourites.. must check out that Polish band though! The only Polish one I know is Kroke with Nigel Kennedy, who play traditional music.


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## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Ummm a guy who loves his Abyss TC 1266 with Oblivion. I got to have that headphone one day !
> 
> I just bought a HiFiMan HE1000se to use it with Oblivion. I think @joseph69  likes his HE1000V2 with his custom Citadel. Looking forward to it as soon as Rudolph sends it to me.



I was thinking about that headphone a while ago, let us know your impressions!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I was thinking about that headphone a while ago, let us know your impressions!



I was thinking about HEKse and LCD-4 a little while ago. I thought to myself that after I get those 2, I'll call it quits and sell all my other headphones.

Now I've (or it's coming to me if it doesn't get lost in the Xmas delivery) HEKse, I'm half way to quitting.


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## UntilThen

Before I forget.... it's only 3 hours to Christmas...


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## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I was thinking about HEKse and LCD-4 a little while ago. I thought to myself that after I get those 2, I'll call it quits and sell all my other headphones.
> 
> Now I've (or it's coming to me if it doesn't get lost in the Xmas delivery) HEKse, I'm half way to quitting.



Fingers crossed then.

When the 1000SE came out it seemed to be better than the V2 or HEK to me. I was looking for something with the soundstage of the HD800 but retaining the euphoric sound of the HE800 so that's why I'm keen on hearing what you think.. Xmas post notwithstanding!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm listening to HD800 now with 2 hours to go to Christmas. Listening to Eva Cassidy sing 'Bridge Over Troubled Water' because when Eva sings, all troubles will go away. No other singer has such a fair dinkum voice. So much emotions and it's pitch perfect.

So I'll reacquaint myself with HD800 again. Then when HEKse comes, I'll hit the ground running.

The problem is it's just pick up by Sendle today and has a estimated time of delivery of 31st Dec and 7th Jan 2021....

I'm hoping that HEKse will be great with vocals but realistically I should be listening to 'Mission Impossible' or Fourplay 'Max-O-Man'.... the latter on HD800 right now is incredible... who would have known that HD800 still can thrill in 2020 or almost end of 2020.


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## baronbeehive

You hit the spot when you mentioned Fourplay, my favourites are "Elixir", "Between the Sheets".., (if you can say that on this forum).., and "Yes Please." And then there's Eva Cassidy, I get goosebumps when you even mention her because of her voice! Have you heard "Eva By Heart"?


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## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> You hit the spot when you mentioned Fourplay, my favourites are "Elixir", "Between the Sheets".., (if you can say that on this forum).., and "Yes Please." And then there's Eva Cassidy, I get goosebumps when you even mention her because of her voice! Have you heard "Eva By Heart"?



Why are we so alike with our musical taste? Have I met you before? Are you Nathan East? I'm Lee Ritenour.

Just listen to 'Between the Sheets' ... think I 'm gonna do that right now.


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## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Why are we so alike with our musical taste? Have I met you before? Are you Nathan East? I'm Lee Ritenour.
> 
> Just listen to 'Between the Sheets' ... think I 'm gonna do that right now.



Haha.. no I'm Larry Carlton lol .


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## UntilThen

Ah so Larry Carlton replace Lee Ritenour in Fourplay. You replace me but always remember Lee Ritenour is the best.  

But here they are together in Tokyo 1995. Damm we're old.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> Ummm a guy who loves his Abyss TC 1266 with Oblivion. I got to have that headphone one day !
> 
> I just bought a HiFiMan HE1000se to use it with Oblivion. I think @joseph69  likes his HE1000V2 with his custom Citadel. Looking forward to it as soon as Rudolph sends it to me.


Yes, I enjoy my HE1000v2 via mt Citadel Custom very much.


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## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Before I forget.... it's only 3 hours to Christmas...


Happy holidays to all of you! Stay safe!


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## foefoe (Dec 25, 2020)

baronbeehive said:


> Ha.. most of my favourites.. must check out that Polish band though! The only Polish one I know is Kroke with Nigel Kennedy, who play traditional music.



You can find Psychocukier (PsychoSugar) on Spotify, I mean their last 3 albums. "Krolestwo" (Kingdom) is just pure high-octane garage/new-wave rock'n'roll... their last album ("Antypody Umyslu") is a different story though... totally avant-garde staff, as if they were trying to deconstruct rock-music in general. Either way, I think they are one of the best guitar-based-bands in the world now.  They are lots of great music being made in Poland now or was made in the past but that bizarrely rustling language doesn't help promote it abroad 

Psychocukier - Kingdon; title track from their "Kingdom" LP

Psychocukier - Gwiazda ("Star") from Kingdom LP

Psychuckier - 7 from "Antypody Umyslu" LP

Psychocukier Live


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## baronbeehive

foefoe said:


> You can find Psychocukier (PsychoSugar) on Spotify, I mean their last 3 albums. "Krolestwo" (Kingdom) is just pure high-octane garage/new-wave rock'n'roll... their last album ("Antypody Umyslu") is a different story though... totally avant-garde staff, as if they were trying to deconstruct rock-music in general. Either way, I think they are one of the best guitar-based-bands in the world now.  They are lots of great music being made in Poland now or was made in the past but that bizarrely rustling language doesn't help promote it abroad
> 
> Psychocukier - Kingdon; title track from their "Kingdom" LP
> 
> ...



Thanks! Sounds interesting indeed, haven't checked them out yet. I know you are into heavy stuff! There were a lot of Polish workers where I used to work so I was exposed to Poland quite a lot then.

Happy New Year everybody.. keep up the good work Sonic! Looking forward to hearing how your SET amp turns out .


----------



## Bonddam

Put some RCA tubes in custom citadel and they noisy. The ones in before where pretty quite. Hoping with time they level out.


----------



## SonicTrance (Dec 31, 2020)

Bonddam said:


> Put some RCA tubes in custom citadel and they noisy. The ones in before where pretty quite. Hoping with time they level out.


What tubes? 6SL7 or 6BG6? Try tapping the tubes with your finger. Most of the times that helps to quiet down a noisy tube.


----------



## Bonddam

6BG6. They did go quite but it took a while. I could tell that I through different tubes in and like it more with the new ones. I’m guessing the tubes that where in it are the stock. Joe who traded to me gave me bunch of other tubes.


----------



## SonicTrance

Bonddam said:


> 6BG6. They did go quite but it took a while. I could tell that I through different tubes in and like it more with the new ones. I’m guessing the tubes that where in it are the stock. Joe who traded to me gave me bunch of other tubes.


Ok, great then!
The stock tubes are Russian 6P7S. They are usually dead quiet. Any tube noise usually comes from the input tubes. Output tubes that aren't NOS could be noisy as well.


----------



## UntilThen

Happy New Year everyone. This is a weak shot of Sydney NYE's fireworks. As 2021 is usher in, I lament the fact that I cannot try out my He1000se headphone with Oblivion, who is 300 kms away and I'm barred from going there to take it. Nevertheless Hekse sounds great out of my newly acquired Questyle CMA Twelve and I believe it will sound better with Yggdrasil + Oblivion combo. Can't wait to try that.


----------



## Bonddam (Dec 31, 2020)

Happy New Year


----------



## SonicTrance

Happy new year!


----------



## Bonddam

Is Sophia 6sl7 good input tube?


----------



## SonicTrance

Bonddam said:


> Is Sophia 6sl7 good input tube?


I haven't tried it so I can't say how it sounds. But if it's new it should sound good.


----------



## Bonddam

Just ordered a set of Sophia will report back.


----------



## UntilThen

Bonddam said:


> Is Sophia 6sl7 good input tube?



Didn't know Sophia has 6sl7 but now I see it. Try it and compare it with the old stock 6sl7 and let us know. 

I still have a pair of mint Tung Sol 12sl7gt bgrp which I bought new. Typical TS 6sn7gt bgrp tone and I like it a lot with GOTL. I was almost tempted to have Sonic build me a new amp using this pair of Tung Sol and 12sl7 are still available and cheaper.  However he tells me tubes don't make much difference in Oblivion and Citadel and the tubes he has chosen sound as good as any of the good brands. Only aesthetics perhaps.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Didn't know Sophia has 6sl7 but now I see it. Try it and compare it with the old stock 6sl7 and let us know.
> 
> I still have a pair of mint Tung Sol 12sl7gt bgrp which I bought new. Typical TS 6sn7gt bgrp tone and I like it a lot with GOTL. I was almost tempted to have Sonic build me a new amp using this pair of Tung Sol and 12sl7 are still available and cheaper.  However he tells me tubes don't make much difference in Oblivion and Citadel and the tubes he has chosen sound as good as any of the good brands. Only aesthetics perhaps.


Tubes will always make a difference. But not as big a difference as in traditional, old school, amps. In my amps the tubes are always working in their linear region. So, if you replace one tube with another that has similar grid curves it will also sound very similar. Then you have things like plate structure and different materials used inside the tubes that can also impact the sound.


----------



## Bonddam

I definitely heard a difference with RCA vs Russian tubes. I’ll describe it as a fuller sound. I replaced all 6 tubes. I also bought Foton output tubes which I’ll combine with the Sophia input tubes see how that is.


----------



## UntilThen (Dec 31, 2020)

I sense something brewing here. Can't wait for Sonic update.

In my dreams, I can see Infinity.


----------



## joseph69

Bonddam said:


> 6BG6. They did go quite but it took a while. I could tell that I through different tubes in and like it more with the new ones. I’m guessing the tubes that where in it are the stock. Joe who traded to me gave me bunch of other tubes.


Can't remember if they were the stock tubes, but I do think they were because they were the quietest.



Bonddam said:


> I definitely heard a difference with RCA vs Russian tubes. I’ll describe it as a fuller sound. I replaced all 6 tubes. I also bought Foton output tubes which I’ll combine with the Sophia input tubes see how that is.


I found the RCA's to sound too full and bleeding into the detail in comparison to the Russian tubes.


----------



## Bonddam (Jan 9, 2021)

So have all my tubes for the Custom and it's pretty quite needs some burn in to hopefully get to fully quite. I got Sophia drivers and NOS Foton russian power tubes. The RCA had too much noise. Thing I noticed that the internal build seems the same through out different power tubes at least the RCA look exactly like the Foton I just got.


----------



## SonicTrance

Bonddam said:


> So have all my tubes for the Custom and it's pretty quite needs some burn in to hopefully get to fully quite. I got Sophia drivers and NOS Foton russian power tubes. The RCA had too much noise. Thing I noticed that the internal build seems the same through out different power tubes at least the RCA look exactly like the Foton I just got.


Looks good!  
Have you bought Joseph's amp?


----------



## UntilThen

That custom Citadel looks always get my attention every time it appears. I still haven't heard my He1000se on Oblivion. I believe Bonddam has bought over Joseph's amp.


----------



## Bonddam

SonicTrance said:


> Looks good!
> Have you bought Joseph's amp?


Yes we actually did a trade.


----------



## UntilThen

Bonddam said:


> Yes we actually did a trade.



You seem to enjoy it despite the many good gear you have.


----------



## Bonddam

My amp selections provide a different sound to each headphone or a headphone just synergizes with that amp better. For example I like the VC on the Euforia the best even though it's the cheapest of my amps. The LCD X XC sound best on the Custom vs the Euforia. The WA33 and headtrip to listen to the 1266 TC and HE-6. I get bored quickly and need to change amps through out the day. The Empyrean is doing awesome right now on the Custom.  It's giving me a very big sound with a hall type of sound but not diffused. If


----------



## UntilThen

I can relate to your experience too because I have quite a few amps and headphones.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> That custom Citadel looks always get my attention every time it appears. I still haven't heard my He1000se on Oblivion. I believe Bonddam has bought over Joseph's amp.



Still waiting on your impressions of that headphone! From what I've heard it is even better than the HD800, bigger soundstage, clarity, detail, realism. I'm not really a fan of Sennheisers so I'm very interested in the HiFiMan.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Still waiting on your impressions of that headphone! From what I've heard it is even better than the HD800, bigger soundstage, clarity, detail, realism. I'm not really a fan of Sennheisers so I'm very interested in the HiFiMan.



I've been posting on the He1000se thread so much till the cows comes home. Have a look there.  Until I return to Canberra, then I will review He1000se with Oblivion here because Oblivion and Yggdrasil are in Canberra and I'm WFH in Sydney.

Meanwhile, SPL Phontor X, Schiit Mjolnir 2 join my Wa22, Violectric v280, Questyle CMA Twelve and SMSL Sp200 here in my home in Sydney and I get to listen with He1000se, LCD-X, HD800 with those amps. LCD-3f coming back soon.

I've been busy !


----------



## joseph69

SonicTrance said:


> Looks good!
> Have you bought Joseph's amp?


First it was just a trade for my CC for his WA33 (which I rely missed after selling) that eventually turned into to a trade.
I'm sure you'll get me with the Infinity.


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> First it was just a trade for my CC for his WA33 (which I rely missed after selling) that eventually turned into to a trade.
> I'm sure you'll get me with the Infinity.



If you've seen the prototypes of Infinity, you will have willingly give up your custom Citadel.   

... and btw trade me that WA33 now.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> If you've seen the prototypes of Infinity, you will have willingly give up your custom Citadel.
> 
> ... and btw trade me that WA33 now.


That was a real bad teaser. Now that I've known you've seen the prototype I definitely want to see it too!
C'mon @SonicTrance leak some spy photos.


----------



## UntilThen

I saw it in my dreams. Sonic wouldn't be please I spill the beans but he's almost there. So don't rush him.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> I saw it in my dreams. Sonic wouldn't be please I spill the beans but he's almost there. So don't rush him.


This is why I didn't ask you and I asked Tomas.
I would never put anyone on the spot and leak info that doesn't want to shared just yet.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm sure he will share it with you. It's no secret that he is working on Infinity, an amp to drive both speakers and headphones and that has more tube tone than Oblivion and Citadel.


----------



## SonicTrance

joseph69 said:


> C'mon @SonicTrance leak some spy photos.


I'll do you one better  
Here's Infinity complete!





Anti-vibration feet is included.








Bonus pic  


If done some measurements and it's 5W into 8 ohms. So not quite the 8W I was shooting for. For even more power I'd have to use different, more expensive, output transformers. To me, it's not necessary. I have some 89db, 6 ohm speakers at home and Infinity drives them no problem.

Price is 2350 for stock version, incl speaker outputs. 

I'll update the website soon to include this amp and possible add-ons! One completely new thing for my amps is that Infinity will have a "tube rolling" add-on! The tubes are grid biased so I'll include panel mount trimmers and panel meters to set the correct bias for a certain tube (this is done with amp ON but tubes out, then power OFF, insert tubes and you're done). Stock version will have 6AV6 input and 6P36S output with no possibility to tube roll.

Oh, and I also have another amp coming! It's a baby brother to Infinity called Eternity! More to come on that!


----------



## UntilThen

Pretty stunning looking. A total transformation from the spy photos. For stock version, it looks really nice !


----------



## joseph69

SonicTrance said:


> I'll do you one better
> Here's Infinity complete!
> 
> 
> ...


That's a beauty, can't wait to see the customs
I also like the idea of the tube rolling option. Thanks for the photos!


----------



## DecentLevi (Jan 12, 2021)

I am proud to be the first customer of a future Infinity amp. Tomas (@SonicTrance ) & I have been working out the details the last few weeks and mine will be very special customized beast with add-ons I can reveal at a later time. For now I just want to further elaborate on the exciting new feature he mentioned above allowing for tube rolling, and will try & see if I can coax a few basic impressions of the new amp from Tomas.

First off I feel feel compelled to mention what an extraordinary man Tomas seems to be. My experience with him has been truly exemplary, handling my complex requests with not only an open mind but also very insightful and no hint of unpleasantness. I've dealt with plenty hi-fi companies over the years but my experience with him could be the best.

The _trimmer / voltmeter_ concept was brought up by Tomas after expressing an interest in rolling both the 6L6 series and EL12 Spez as powers (output tubes), the latter being able to work with special adapters, but has a very different plate voltage. It was explained that the Infinity amp uses fixed bias architecture which is the opposite of a cathode biased (auto bias) amp. This means that the amp would bias optimally towards one type of tube, vs. something like a Glenn or Feliks Audio amp that lets you use a wide array of similar tubes - although not necessarily under the correct operating points. To overcome this, the _trimmer / voltmeter_ concept allows one to fine tune the grid bias by way of adjusting the potentiometer (knob / 'trimmer') to a voltage that is specified for the tube type, according to a level shown on a corresponding meter added onto the amp. Although I had specified for compatibility with a very large array of tube types, I was lucky enough to work something out where only one set of trimmer / voltmeters would be able to adjust them all to the proper operating points by changing the grid voltage for the tubes - not needing another set for plate voltage. For anyone thinking this sounds like just a bunch of gobbelygook, what this means is the non-stock tubes should be able to reveal their true potential and from what I've come to understand, that can make a huge leap in performance. (feel free to add or correct anything to this, Tomas or anyone).

I further went on to add an additional set of trimmer / voltmeters for the input as well as output tubes, now giving me amazing flexibility with the upcoming Infinity amp. It will be based around the 6L6 series for output including sister classes EL34, KT77 and 7581A, and with above grid bias adjustments and/or adapters where needed, also KT66, KT77, KT88 (maybe), EL12, EL12 Spez / Spec, 6BG6, EL3N, EL38 and the mighty EL39. For input tubes I went with two sockets for 6J5 and one socket for 6SN7 that will run in parallel for either two of the single triode 6J5 (or 6C5, L63, CV1101 / MHLD6), or a single of other dual triode or pentodes such as, 6F8G, 6C8G, VT-96 / 6N7, miniatures: 6DJ8 / 6N23P, 12AU7 / E88CC and ECC88. Maybe EL32 and EL11 (which may need to be dual). Topping off the meter design it occurred to us that the amp best have the standard mA meters as well as voltmeters to facilitate warning of any dying tubes, so in all it will have 4x meters - 2 on the front, 2 on top and two small multiturn knobs (trimmers) on the top.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jan 12, 2021)

Now onto the question that must be languishing in the back of all our minds - just how does the Infinity sound different than the former Oblivion and Citadel? This one's for you Tomas because you're the only one in the world with one. Please do feel free to answer any of these: How does the soundstage compare? Low end fullness / authority and speed? Upper extension / quality? Detail? Realism (how lifelike does it sound in comparison)? From what I gather it's a more 'tubey' or harmonic saturated sound than the former which can also change depending on the tubes in use, but these would be highly interesting to read about; no need for an elaborate evaluation, just your basic opinion on these.

As well, the factor of amp burn-in can make a huge difference on amps, so if you don't mind to mention about how many hours does your 'new baby' have on it? Further as I've recently discovered the "feet" absorption material can actually make a solid difference under the amp, something I will experiment with later vs. the existing ones.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> I've dealt with plenty hi-fi companies over the years but my experience with him could be the best.



A lot to be excited with what you wrote DL but I chose to quote the above. Tomas is indeed a marvellous person to deal with. I can't recommend him highly enough. Almost instantaneous response to any of my questions.  

Also what you're about to get sounds superb with the many variety of tubes you can use, not least my favourite the Telefunken EL12 spez of which I have 5 NOS pairs in original boxes and no don't ask me to sell it because it's not for sale.   I want this to be the Auris Nirvana contender or perhaps even better than that. A recent trip to Minidisc, my local downtown head-fi shop allows me to sample Audeze LCD-4 with Auris Nirvana and I ended up staying several hours, not wanting to go home. Bass with seismic waves and with the effect of subwoofer (ok I exaggerate but just a bit). It was truly the the most liquid, syrupy and impact laden tone I've experienced. Despite the warmth, clarity and details are exemplary and soundstage is great.

Sorry don't want to take the gloss off Infinity but I'm sure Tomas's new creation will be more outstanding and obviously cheaper than the 10 grand Nirvana.  Pocket the change and get a Abyss ab 1266 phi TC or a Susvara to go with Infinity.


----------



## OctavianH (Jan 12, 2021)

DecentLevi said:


> Topping off the meter design it occurred to us that the amp best have the standard mA meters as well as voltmeters to facilitate warning of any dying tubes, so in all it will have 4x meters - 2 on the front, 2 on top and two small multiturn knobs (trimmers) on the top.



It is a very interesting amplifier you are waiting for and I am directly interested in your findings related to tube rolling. I do not like to make waves but the reason is that I will be the first owner of an Eternity. The smaller brother of Infinity, operating at different (lower?) voltage points but with the same tube rolling principle as Infinity. Eternity will be a very special amplifier for me since it will accomodate the 6V6 outputs and 2 x 6J5 + 1 x 6SN7 inputs and I am sure it will have many other orders after it will be finished. But the single/dual triodes will not run in parallel, there will be an input switch. However, from what I understood from Tomas all three will light up even if the one not selected as input will not have the plate and grid connected. The reason I am posting is that I want to ask you regarding the mA meters from which you will be warned about dying tubes. It is not clear for me how this mechanism works. As far as I know you measure the plate current during operation and you expect it to have a constant value. When a tube starts to create problems the current goes lower/higher and at that time you stop the amplifier and remove it? I think the mA meter is more for checking if the bias setting was correctly done and I am not sure if it will show signals of aging tubes. More than this, I have no idea what impact has a dying tube on the circuitry and if there is a risk to damage the amplifier using problematic ones.

PS1. Tomas is indeed incredible. I think his day has at least 36 hours there in the North to be able to work and also answer to all our questions.

PS2. I made extensive notes of my findings and also Tomas explanations. When needed I will post all of them in an organized form to help other understand what is Eternity, tube compatibility and how it works. In this way I will repay my debt to Tomas who lost time explaning them to me and also help the community to understand better this product.


----------



## UntilThen

Congrats to both of you. Infinity and Eternity. My Oblivion is only a year old. I wasn't wrong in my review then that Tomas's amps will take off and it did. Now I have buyers in Australia who wants my Oblivion.


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> I'll do you one better
> Here's Infinity complete!


WOW.. what a great way to start the New Year sonic .

Maybe a deluxe version with gold knobs coming soon .

Could you summarise the differences in architecture between the Infinity and the Eternity, and the Infinity and Oblivion?


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> If done some measurements and it's 5W into 8 ohms. So not quite the 8W I was shooting for. For even more power I'd have to use different, more expensive, output transformers. To me, it's not necessary. I have some 89db, 6 ohm speakers at home and Infinity drives them no problem.



Yes absolutely, no need if you've got 5W of good clean power. My friend has 8W and it is deafening after a quarter turn on the volume pot. Similarly with my 3.5W Miniwatt and 87db speakers I can't turn the knob all the way round without wakening half the street!


----------



## baronbeehive

DecentLevi said:


> I am proud to be the first customer of a future Infinity amp.



Really looking forward to your review.. and anyone else's.


----------



## SonicTrance

@DecentLevi @OctavianH @UntilThen 
Thank you so much for the kind words guys! It means a lot to me! 



DecentLevi said:


> Now onto the question that must be languishing in the back of all our minds - just how does the Infinity sound different than the former Oblivion and Citadel?


I'm no good at describing sound with words. But, Infinity sounds as expected with more tube sound, warmer than both Oblivion and Citadel. It also has more bass (both by measurements and listening). Is the bass better and more refined? No, but it has more quantity than the other amps and is still tight! I enjoy listening to it very much, I can tell you that =) I don't want to say much more regarding SQ because I think it should come from potential customers instead.



DecentLevi said:


> As well, the factor of amp burn-in can make a huge difference on amps, so if you don't mind to mention about how many hours does your 'new baby' have on it? Further as I've recently discovered the "feet" absorption material can actually make a solid difference under the amp, something I will experiment with later vs. the existing ones.


Not many hours I'm afraid. I don't have time, lol. I did listen for a few hours when I just finished it.
Infinity comes with anti-vibration feet!



OctavianH said:


> But the single/dual triodes will not run in parallel, there will be an input switch


They will be hooked up in parallel but you can only use one or the other. Either 2 x 6J5's or a single 6SN7. It's the same with Levi's amp.



OctavianH said:


> However, from what I understood from Tomas all three will light up even if the one not selected as input will not have the plate and grid connected.


Correct! Since you'll have the input selector switch you can have all three tubes in the amp at the same time. I'll not switch out the heaters so all tubes will glow.



OctavianH said:


> The reason I am posting is that I want to ask you regarding the mA meters from which you will be warned about dying tubes. It is not clear for me how this mechanism works. As far as I know you measure the plate current during operation and you expect it to have a constant value. When a tube starts to create problems the current goes lower/higher and at that time you stop the amplifier and remove it? I think the mA meter is more for checking if the bias setting was correctly done and I am not sure if it will show signals of aging tubes.


You are right! The biggest reason for the mA meters is to show that the bias is set right! But, it "can" show signs of a tube going bad also, just like you say.



OctavianH said:


> More than this, I have no idea what impact has a dying tube on the circuitry and if there is a risk to damage the amplifier using problematic ones.


A dying tube will not have an impact on the amp. A dead tube however could if it shorts grid to anode for example. Pretty unlikely though.



baronbeehive said:


> Could you summarise the differences in architecture between the Infinity and the Eternity, and the Infinity and Oblivion?


Eternity is a low power version of Infinity. It's the same SET design. Totally different from Oblivion which is a balanced amp.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I'm no good at describing sound with words. But, Infinity sounds as expected with more tube sound, warmer than both Oblivion and Citadel. It also has more bass (both by measurements and listening). Is the bass better and more refined? No, but it has more quantity than the other amps and is still tight! I enjoy listening to it very much, I can tell you that =) I don't want to say much more regarding SQ because I think it should come from potential customers instead.



That is something I wanted to hear. Warmer with more quantity and quality bass, at the same time tight. I imagine clarity and details and soundstage still as outstanding as Oblivion?


----------



## DecentLevi (Jan 12, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> That is something I wanted to hear. Warmer with more quantity and quality bass, at the same time tight. I imagine clarity and details and soundstage still as outstanding as Oblivion?


You took the words right out of my mouth, UT , precisely what I was going to ask our master builder @SonicTrance  / Tomas...
Also something myself and others in the hobby do occasionally is to leave the amp or other on for about 12 hour sessions with music playing even when you're not around. This can help expedite burn-in, then the cooling off periods can be important as well for it to 'breathe', depending on the circumstance. Of course caution is exercised in case of excess heat.

Also @OctavianH welcome to the club and congrats on your future amp! I'm surprised to see you around this thread! You, me and UT / UntilThen are part of a crew on a similar journey going back all the way to Feliks Elise around 2015, or even before with the Garage1217 amps?


----------



## UntilThen

I don't leave my new tube amps on for 12 hours just to speed up 'burning in' though. You never know what will happen when you're not around. I'd exercise patience and just let it burn in as I enjoy it. Gradually it will be 'burn in'. What's the rush.  I might leave solid state on to burn in but I'm cautious with tube amps.


----------



## OctavianH

DecentLevi said:


> Also @OctavianH welcome to the club and congrats on your future amp! I'm surprised to see you around this thread! You, me and UT / UntilThen are part of a crew on a similar journey going back all the way to Feliks Elise around 2015, or even before with the Garage1217 amps?



I am not using tube amps for so long as you, but before Elise I had a LittleDot MK2. It was a funny small amp for that time.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm overdosed with tube amps and the end is still not in sight. Starting to be interested in solid states.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> I don't leave my new tube amps on for 12 hours just to speed up 'burning in' though. You never know what will happen when you're not around. I'd exercise patience and just let it burn in as I enjoy it. Gradually it will be 'burn in'. What's the rush.


I totally agree with this. I'll run music without listening through my new amp/tubes for a +/-2hrs for the first week, then shut down.
 If I'm actually listening to the music I'll listen for up to 4hrs then shut down. I enjoy hearing my amp/tubes opening up and sounding better & better.


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> I enjoy hearing my amp/tubes opening up and sounding better & better.



Spot on. Why would you miss the opportunity of witnessing the amp develop in the early stage. Once burn in, you can never sample that again.   

More importantly never take a risk with electrical stuff like potent tube amps unattended. Could start a fire burn down your precious gear - expensive streamer, dac, amps and headphones and perhaps your cat or puppy. Poor thing.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> Spot on. Why would you miss the opportunity of witnessing the amp develop in the early stage. Once burn in, you can never sample that again.
> 
> More importantly never take a risk with electrical stuff like potent tube amps unattended. Could start a fire burn down your precious gear - expensive streamer, dac, amps and headphones and perhaps your cat or puppy. Poor thing.


It would be like having an 18yrs new born. 
You would've missed everything in between and have never seen them growing up.


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> It would be like having an 18yrs new born.
> You would've missed everything in between and have never seen them growing up.



Ok that make me laugh Joseph. Yup we'll just 'burn in' the kids real fast so they will become adults real quick and we'll be free to indulge in head-fi instead of taking them to soccer matches, swimming, taekwondo, etc, etc.


----------



## SonicTrance

I always run the amps 48h (with some small breaks), with music playing into dummy loads, before shipping. That's because I want to stress the amp and get it as hot as possible. Heat is electronic components worst enemy. If there's gonna be a component failure I want it to happen before shipping!

With that said I don't recommend any of you to do so


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I always run the amps 48h (with some small breaks), with music playing into dummy loads, before shipping. That's because I want to stress the amp and get it as hot as possible. Heat is electronic components worst enemy. If there's gonna be a component failure I want it to happen before shipping!
> 
> With that said I don't recommend any of you to do so



Usually I just pack my Oblivion with ice cubes in Summer so that it's cool and look cool. Mr Cool. 

Speaking of cool, Oblivion is a cool dude. There's hardly any heat even after hours of operation. The fan at the bottom is still running very quietly. Sometimes I feel the fan isn't necessary but since it's so quiet it didn't bother me. Perhaps have a switch to switch it on or off, Tomas? Like if I needed to cool myself, I just switch it on.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Usually I just pack my Oblivion with ice cubes in Summer so that it's cool and look cool. Mr Cool.
> 
> Speaking of cool, Oblivion is a cool dude. There's hardly any heat even after hours of operation. The fan at the bottom is still running very quietly. Sometimes I feel the fan isn't necessary but since it's so quiet it didn't bother me. Perhaps have a switch to switch it on or off, Tomas? Like if I needed to cool myself, I just switch it on.


I haven't shipped an amp with a fan for almost a year! You can disconnect it if you want  Just make sure the connections doesn't short to something on the inside.


----------



## UntilThen

I will get a technician to do it. Left to me I might create a new amp. 

Or I might keep it. Makes mine Oblivion special !


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> There's hardly any heat even after hours of operation. The fan at the bottom is still running very quietly. Sometimes I feel the fan isn't necessary but since it's so quiet it didn't bother me. Perhaps have a switch to switch it on or off, Tomas? Like if I needed to cool myself, I just switch it on.





SonicTrance said:


> I haven't shipped an amp with a fan for almost a year! You can disconnect it if you want  Just make sure the connections doesn't short to something on the inside.



My Citadel didn't have a fan and after running for 4hrs it was just slightly warm to the touch, literally.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Usually I just pack my Oblivion with ice cubes in Summer so that it's cool and look cool. Mr Cool.
> 
> Speaking of cool, Oblivion is a cool dude. There's hardly any heat even after hours of operation.



That's no use.. how would I heat my house this cold weather?



UntilThen said:


> Sometimes I feel the fan isn't necessary but since it's so quiet it didn't bother me. Perhaps have a switch to switch it on or off, Tomas?



I would keep it if I were you.. I believe it's a tad warmer in Aussie that Sweden .


----------



## Bonddam

The Custom runs cool. The metal covers never get warm. My OTL and SET you can’t touch.


----------



## nishan99

After more than 6 months I am still enjoying this great amplifier!.

But I have two question for you @SonicTrance, (1) is it safe to plug and unplug the RCA cables while the amp is ON? (2) is it okay to give the amp a hot 4v signal via the RCA-in?


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Eternity will be a very special amplifier for me since it will accomodate the 6V6 outputs and 2 x 6J5 + 1 x 6SN7 inputs



I have an idea of 6v6 tubes in the Studio Six which I had for a year until a friend wrest it from me. i.e make me an offer I cannot refuse. However that doesn't mean that 2 amps using the same tubes will sound the same. Studio Six also use one 6sn7 as input and a tube rectifier GZ34 is the recommendation.

Will your Eternity have tube rectification? I can guess...


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> That's no use.. how would I heat my house this cold weather?



Get 2 La Figaro 339 or 2 Gen 1 Ragnarok and leave them running non stop.


----------



## SonicTrance

nishan99 said:


> (1) is it safe to plug and unplug the RCA cables while the amp is ON?


Yes, just set the volume to zero before you remove or insert the RCA's.



nishan99 said:


> (2) is it okay to give the amp a hot 4v signal via the RCA-in?


Yes, totally fine. The only difference is that you would have less play with the volume control.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Will your Eternity have tube rectification? I can guess...


No tube rectification, same as Infinity.


----------



## UntilThen

nishan99 said:


> After more than 6 months I am still enjoying this great amplifier!.



I'm glad you do. Mine is a keeper. I've still to hear my Hekse with it.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Hi everybody!

I’ve read this thread and have a question. It was said many times that these amps are not typical tube amps. Soundstage is not enlarged, treble is not smoothed, bass is more controlled, no tube rolling. It is closer to solid state amp.

So the question is: what is the point of tubes in Citadel? If somebody like SS amp sound, why not to buy SS amp? I assume there is something that Citadel does better than typical solid state. What is it?


----------



## SonicTrance

Ragnar-BY said:


> Hi everybody!
> 
> I’ve read this thread and have a question. It was said many times that these amps are not typical tube amps. Soundstage is not enlarged, treble is not smoothed, bass is more controlled, no tube rolling. It is closer to solid state amp.
> 
> So the question is: what is the point of tubes in Citadel? If somebody like SS amp sound, why not to buy SS amp? I assume there is something that Citadel does better than typical solid state. What is it?


Hi there!

These are not old school style tube amps where the tubes are resistor loaded and have a load line which goes into the non-linear region of the tubes. The tubes are always working in their linear region thanks to the gyrator plate loads. Other design choises makes these amps have fast transient response and transparency. But, all amplification is done by the tubes! That's what tubes do best, amplify voltage. MOSFETs supply current together with the output tubes. That way all components do what they do best!
There's no SS sound at all from any of these amps. 
I've started to implement tube rolling in my amps now btw


----------



## UntilThen

Be assured that soundstage is very wide. Widest amongst all my amps. Top end is very clear but it's not glaring. No coloration in bass. If bass is intended in the music, you'll hear it. It's kind of like the Susvara that I heard yesterday. Very detailed, full of clarity, bass is not like Audeze LCD-4 bass but will hit and will be felt when call upon. 

That is the Oblivion that I have. Would I tube roll to change the sound signature? No because it is unique in what it does. Does it sound like your typical solid state? No. How do I know? Because I've owned Ragnarok before and Jotunheim. Now I have Questyle CMA Twelve and Violectric v280. Now the v280 is not your typical solid state sound. It's a bit like tube tone.

What amaze me is using HD800 with Oblivion. There's no glare and bass in HD800 is as it is intended. I would say it's an ideal classical music pairing. 

The last 2 endearing attributes are quietness and coolness. Amp is devoid of hum or hiss. Amp stays cool after hours of operation.

Why then do I have so many amps? Because I love the different sonic signatures of each amp. So instead of rolling tubes, I roll amps.  The same way I have 4 headphones.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

UntilThen said:


> Now the v280 is not your typical solid state sound. It's a bit like tube tone.


Tonally - yes, it have slightly overweighted bass and rolled off highs. Although, Violectric soundstage is slightly narrow, but deep. Oblivion sounds very different to v280? Does it sound better? I mean more transparent, more defined, more detailed maybe.


----------



## UntilThen

Ragnar-BY said:


> Tonally - yes, it have slightly overweighted bass and rolled off highs. Although, Violectric soundstage is slightly narrow, but deep. Oblivion sounds very different to v280? Does it sound better? I mean more transparent, more defined, more detailed maybe.



Oblivion sounds very different to v280? - Yes

Does it sound better? - In my subjective opinion yes.

I mean more transparent, more defined, more detailed maybe. - Definitely.

Pretty much polar opposite those 2 amps. Can I enjoy both? - definitely.


----------



## UntilThen

Oblivion and La Figaro 339 and Yggdrasil are isolated in my work accommodation 300 kms away. I can't get to it until border restrictions are lifted. So now I have these amps and these headphones to accompany me during working from home. My son borrowed the v280 and HD800. He has an Arya and Topping d90 / a90.

What I have here are Woo Audio Wa22, Questyle CMA Twelve, Schiit Mjolnir 2 and SMSL SP200. Headphones are He1000se, LCD-3f, LCD-X.

Yesterday I heard this system at the downtown local head-fi shop. Awesomely expensive and awesomely good.  
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/1101-audio-custom-crafted-headphone-amps.919425/post-16109211


----------



## SonicTrance

I see you have plenty of gear to keep you busy @UntilThen  Happy listening!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I see you have plenty of gear to keep you busy @UntilThen  Happy listening!



You bet Tomas. I wish you could come here and jam with me on head-fi gear. We will have so much in common and you can bring Infinity, Eternity and UntilThen here for me to audition.  Yes there will be an amp call UntilThen and another call 'The End' hopefully. 

Tomas, yesterday I heard an awesome system in my downtown head-fi shop. I stayed so long that I've to pay $12 parking fees.
Have a look at this post from me yesterday. Cannot double post so have a peep there when you have time and tell me what you thang? 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/1101-audio-custom-crafted-headphone-amps.919425/post-16109211


----------



## BzzzzzT (Jan 16, 2021)

Ragnar-BY said:


> Hi everybody!
> 
> I’ve read this thread and have a question. It was said many times that these amps are not typical tube amps. Soundstage is not enlarged, treble is not smoothed, bass is more controlled, no tube rolling. It is closer to solid state amp.
> 
> So the question is: what is the point of tubes in Citadel? If somebody like SS amp sound, why not to buy SS amp? I assume there is something that Citadel does better than typical solid state. What is it?




This is a good question and it all boils down to harmonics. Our brains are very sensitive to harmonics. Tubes produce a 2nd order harmonic distortion that mimics how we hear real sounds. Solid state also produces some harmonics, but these are mostly 3rd order, and this does not naturally occur in nature.

So the question is how does this work. To give a direct answer, these added 2nd order harmonics make it easier for our brain to perceive the sound. This is because all sounds in our physical world produce harmonics, and this creates the timbre of a sound. Timbre is the qualities of a sound that distinguishes it from other sounds of the same pitch and volume. Say a cello or a violin playing the same note at the same pitch. The harmonics of both will be different and we will know that these are different instruments. Our ear has evolved to be extremely sensitive to harmonic as our hunter-gatherer ancestors needed to be able to distinguish certain sounds to survive.

Solid state does not mimic the natural world and creates mostly odd order harmonics, which are not found in the natural world. This creates a flatter stereo image. When we add harmonics it actually makes it easier for our brain to perceive and process the sound. In an audio amplifier this will translate to a more realistic and three dimensional sound. This also makes it easier to actually perceive detail because the added harmonics make the sound more recognizable to our brain.

Tomas's amps use a circuit that addresses the many unique requirements of using tubes. Solid state is used to drive the tubes and output transformers to their most optimal and linear condition. In the old days, this was not possible. This gives you less smearing of the sound and distortion, because the circuit is not sagging under load and is maintaining a consistent operation, when driving the tubes. You get the accurate sound of solid state with the harmonics that makes it easier for the brain to perceive sound; creating the 3d and more natural timbre that tubes are known for.

An analogy for harmonics is an atom composed of a nucleus surrounded by a whirling vortex of vibration called the electron cloud. The comparative solidarity of the nucleus is like the fundamental; the electron cloud is like the harmonics.

The first mode is called the fundamental frequency or first partial, or alternatively the first harmonic. The fundamental frequency is of vital importance because it determines the pitch of the note we hear. But in addition to the fundamental, there are other frequencies produced by other modes of vibration. These accompany the fundamental although they are not so distinct. The second mode, for example corresponding to halves, produces a frequency double that of the first. Consequently it is called the second partial. The 3rd produces a frequency three times that of the first harmonic; this being called the third partial, and so on. Theoretically, this extends into infinity, with each fractional part contributing it's own frequency to the mix of frequencies that we call tone. Timbre is complex and our ears have evolved to be very sensitive to harmonics. Tubes present sound in a way that makes it easier for our brain to physically process.

Sorry for the long winded explanation, but this is the reason why tubes sound different and whey people tend to favor them for listening to music and for various production purposes.


----------



## SonicTrance

BzzzzzT said:


> This is a good question and it all boils down to harmonics. Our brains are very sensitive to harmonics. Tubes produce a 2nd order harmonic distortion that mimics how we hear real sounds. Solid state also produces some harmonics, but these are mostly 3rd order, and this does not naturally occur in nature.
> 
> So the question is how does this work. To give a direct answer, these added 2nd order harmonics make it easier for our brain to perceive the sound. This is because all sounds in our physical world produce harmonics, and this creates the timbre of a sound. Timbre is the qualities of a sound that distinguishes it from other sounds of the same pitch and volume. Say a cello or a violin playing the same note at the same pitch. The harmonics of both will be different and we will know that these are different instruments. Our ear has evolved to be extremely sensitive to harmonic as our hunter-gatherer ancestors needed to be able to distinguish certain sounds to survive.
> 
> ...


Thank you @BzzzzzT for coming here with your expertise! Very good post!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Have a look at this post from me yesterday. Cannot double post so have a peep there when you have time and tell me what you thang?
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/1101-audio-custom-crafted-headphone-amps.919425/post-16109211



Looks like you are well qualified to judge the merits of SS vs tube amps from those trials you mentioned in that link.


----------



## UntilThen

Qualified I wouldn't say but I do know my likes and preference. Though TT2 + MScalar present a very detailed and high fidelity sound with Susvara, I find it lacking in texture and euphony. Once Auris Nirvana is added as amp to the mix, that's when I say, "ah, that's my kind of music".  You could call it musical and I will call it musical plus still sounding very high fidelity. There's more body weight whereas prior to that, it was light and fleet footed.

Right next to me when I was auditioning the system, was a guy who does measurements of the equipment there. He told me Nirvana has quite a bit of distortion whereas the Chord stack is quite devoid of distortion. I guess he was referring to 2nd harmonic distortions. All these terms don't come to me naturally. This is not my profession. I only know what sonic tones I like and I find tubes musical where as pure solid state just clinical. I know this is purely preference. There's no doubt there will be one camp who will prefer just the Chord stack and equally there will be another camp who like me will prefer a tube amp in the mix.


----------



## baronbeehive

Yes some people don't realise that when they say they like a euphonic sound, say, what they are really liking is distortion. It's like saying that you like the sound of the Gibson Les Paul sound which has a sustained distorted sound which is characteristic. After all that is the sound of electric guitars, they would not sound the same driven by a clean sounding hifi amp.

BTW I've just checked out your posts on the HE1000SE thread.. and I think it's fair to say you like it a bit . (I'm assuming you still do lol). So I'm still looking forward to your impressions when you finally get to hear it with Oblivion.


----------



## OctavianH

baronbeehive said:


> Yes some people don't realise that when they say they like a euphonic sound, say, what they are really liking is distortion. It's like saying that you like the sound of the Gibson Les Paul sound which has a sustained distorted sound which is characteristic. After all that is the sound of electric guitars, they would not sound the same driven by a clean sounding hifi amp.



This is a very true statement which was also in my mind for some time. I guess Eternity will be my final test to understand how much I love distortion.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Yes some people don't realise that when they say they like a euphonic sound, say, what they are really liking is distortion. It's like saying that you like the sound of the Gibson Les Paul sound which has a sustained distorted sound which is characteristic. After all that is the sound of electric guitars, they would not sound the same driven by a clean sounding hifi amp.
> 
> BTW I've just checked out your posts on the HE1000SE thread.. and I think it's fair to say you like it a bit . (I'm assuming you still do lol). So I'm still looking forward to your impressions when you finally get to hear it with Oblivion.



It's a lovely kind of distortion. A natural kind of distortion. I call it harmony. 

He1000se is on my head as I type. I'm going back and forth between He1000se, LCD-3f and LCD-X at the moment in my home. For comfort and best tone, I go for the He1000se. It's the best headphone I've heard and owned and loved by far. After hearing Susvara the other day at the shop for 2 hours with those outrageous price gear, I still think I can live with just He1000se but I do love the LCD-4.

He1000se and LCD-4 are the headphones that I love and I haven't heard them on my Oblivion and I would like for that to happen soon.


----------



## BzzzzzT (Jan 17, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> This is a very true statement which was also in my mind for some time. I guess Eternity will be my final test to understand how much I love distortion.



These amps are definitely not what I would call euphonic and some amount of distortion from tubes IS intentional as it creates some desirable characteristics. The distortion changes the perceptual characteristic of the sound but does not necessarily change it's character, if that makes sense. This circuit has less distortion than most tube amps. I find the amount it has to be ideal. Also the lower output impedance and nimble circuit gives better frequency response. Some examples of more euphonic amps would be OTL circuits and traditional SET amps. Traditional SET amps face a greater impedance with lower frequencies causing some pleasant smearing that gives a sense of warmth. The higher output impedance (resistance) causes more distortion and coloration in most popular SET and OTL tube headphone circuits. What I find to be the differences between this circuit and the others mentioned are a more nimble attack like solid state, greater bass articulation and a cleaner sound; this I attribute to the efficient circuit, less distortion and lower output impedance.


----------



## UntilThen

That's what I like about the Oblivion too. It's a great contrast to the other tube amps I have or had. Fast transient response, fast decays, there's still some tube tone. With the Infinity and Eternity, there will be even more. That's what Sonic says and he would know. However don't expect OTL amps kind of tube goodness. 

Other aspects of Oblivion that I like are very wide soundstage, doesn't sound glaring like clinical solid states and not all solid states are tuned that way. Typical example would be v280 / v281 that is warm and exhibit tube tone.


----------



## baronbeehive (Jan 18, 2021)

BzzzzzT said:


> Also the lower output impedance and nimble circuit gives better frequency response. Some examples of more euphonic amps would be OTL circuits and traditional SET amps.



That's the clever part of these amps. Not having a transformer in OTL amps, or having anything between the output tubes and the output signal in OCL amps also for example, would appear to be ideal because nothing interferes with the audio signal, but then you have the problem of controlling the impedance, obviously the lower the better. By turning that idea on its head and putting in a transformer in the output stage in parafeed mode you can have the best of both worlds, good control over impedance and at the same time there is little to interfere with the signal. As Sonic has said even a modest output transformer in parafeed mode will do all that is necessary.

The balance has been perfectly struck between power requirements and control over impedance and parasitics.


----------



## BzzzzzT

baronbeehive said:


> That's the clever part of these amps. Not having a transformer in OTL amps, or having anything between the output tubes and the output signal in OCL amps also for example, would appear to be ideal because nothing interferes with the audio signal, but then you have the problem of controlling the impedance, obviously the lower the better. By turning that idea on its head and putting in a transformer in the output stage in parafeed mode you can have the best of both worlds, good control over impedance and at the same time there is little to interfere with the signal. As Sonic has said even a modest output transformer in parafeed mode will do all that is necessary.
> 
> The balance has been perfectly struck between power requirements and control over impedance and parasitics.



You definitely nailed it! 

I just love tube amps and the different circuits. They all bring something different to the table. That's what I love about tubes. There are so many ways to go about things with different results. There is a lot of creativity! I love seeing what different builders come up with. I really feel lucky to own one of Tomas's amps. I have great respect for his electronic skill, knowledge, ear and creativity! I'm never going to part with my Citadel.


----------



## UntilThen

I love his beauty, I mean Oblivion.  On the top of my rack, it's a head turner. Gosh I've not heard Oblivion in 3 weeks of isolation !


----------



## OctavianH

Guys, I never asked because it is not very important, but what weight has an UltraSonic amp?


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Guys, I never asked because it is not very important, but what weight has an UltraSonic amp?



Mine is so light that I have to hold it when unplugging my headphone jack because it will move.  However once you're use to it, it's not a problem. I miss Oblivion for the amazing details, airiness and humungous soundstage. You have an orchestra in from of you.


----------



## UntilThen

Somehow I have a feeling @DecentLevi will love Infinity because he's into EDM and he loves fast transients, clarity, details, airiness and a wide soundstage. His custom Infinity having the ability to swap tubes and set the bias manually means he is able to customised the sound to his liking. I can see he's going to have sleepless nights.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I miss Oblivion for the amazing details, airiness and humungous soundstage. You have an orchestra in from of you.



Better to have an Oblivion in the room with you than an entire orchestra .


----------



## baronbeehive (Jan 20, 2021)

BzzzzzT said:


> I just love tube amps and the different circuits. They all bring something different to the table. That's what I love about tubes.



x2.. *but..* it's a bit of a double edged sword.. the tube rolling addiction.. it must have a name..



BzzzzzT said:


> I'm never going to part with my Citadel.



Fantastic!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Better to have an Oblivion in the room with you than an entire orchestra .



I just need Lola and Hauser.


----------



## OctavianH

You are lucky, in my case I'll have this guy and he'll drink all my beer.







Well, if he brings a couple of those ones I might reconsider, otherwise I prefer to have my sober amp.


----------



## UntilThen

We sure have our preferences !


----------



## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> Guys, I never asked because it is not very important, but what weight has an UltraSonic amp?


Oblivion and Citadel weighs around 9.5kg and the Silver Citadel is slightly heavier. Infinity weighs around 12kg if I'm not mistaken. Eternity will be slightly lighter than Oblivion/Citadel.


----------



## cddc (Jan 20, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I just need Lola and Hauser.





Fixed for ya: I just need Lola 😍 and Hauser. 


For Moonlight Sonata all you need is just one single pianist, watching her/his fingers floating on the keyboard with lightning speed.


----------



## hpamdr

cddc said:


> For Moonlight Sonata all you need is just one single pianist, watching her/his fingers floating on the keyboard with lightning speed.


If you really like it, one of the best recording is version played by Bruno-Leonardo Gerber.

But it is really better to get CD than watching YT even if you set output to your DAC+Am+....


----------



## UntilThen

Oh come on guys, you can't outdo me. This is THE best pianist - period.


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## OctavianH (Jan 22, 2021)

Nice british family born in the 60s waiting for their new home, called Eternity.





I think the fashion in the 60s preferred brown.


----------



## UntilThen

Beautiful tubes for Eternity no doubt. I for one will be very interested in how it turn out.


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> Nice british family born in the 60s waiting for their new home, called Eternity.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the fashion in the 60s preferred brown.



Great tubes.. and great fashion.. groovy baby!


----------



## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> Nice british family born in the 60s waiting for their new home, called Eternity.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the fashion in the 60s preferred brown.


Very nice tubes!!


----------



## BzzzzzT

OctavianH said:


> Nice british family born in the 60s waiting for their new home, called Eternity.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the fashion in the 60s preferred brown.



Those are beautiful tubes! GEC made some awesome tubes. They look brand new and the getter looks fresh. Lots of people would kill for those kt66 tubes. What are the two smaller driver tubes? It's funny, I also ordered some obscure GEC EL36 type military tubes almost a month ago and I should hopefully get them next week. I'm really excited to try them! The tubes are heavily reinforced with quad support rods and triple micas to reduce noise.


----------



## OctavianH

Those are a pair of GEC L63, equivalent of 6J5.





These tubes are nice, but they can be easily find on Ebay, for those who want them. Just make some search. It is true that the prices went crazy lately, but you can find good deals if you have patience.


----------



## UntilThen

I have a pair of GEC L63 bought from Langrex but gave it away when I sold off the GOTL.


----------



## OctavianH

Yeap, I quite like to use "collections of tubes". So I need a GEC brown base also for the 6SN7 slot. Hmm... google...think... Voila! GEC B65:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultra-Ra...SN7-Valve-Tube-New-Old-Stock-V29/383523002692
But at that price, I'll just open another beer.


----------



## UntilThen

Get Eternity to work on one driver and use GEC B36 instead - 12volts. Cheaper and just as good.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...v=DefaultOrganic&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultra-Ra...N7-Valve-Tube-New-Old-Stock-V41-/383510595176

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/B36-12SN...lationExplorer&_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/B36-12SN...lationExplorer&_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109


----------



## UntilThen

The whole point of Oblivion and Citadel is to use inexpensive tubes which makes sense. For the good sound I get out of Oblivion with cheap tubes, that was Cuween's intention.


----------



## OctavianH

I was joking regarding that GEC B65. I do not think anyone would pay that price for a 6SN7 tube. However, some sellers on Ebay are asking for some prices which make me wonder if someone ever ordered them. The B36 look nice, but I have a quite big collection of 6SN7 and 6V6. I do not plan to buy anything new.


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> I was joking regarding that GEC B65. I do not think anyone would pay that price for a 6SN7 tube. However, some sellers on Ebay are asking for some prices which make me wonder if someone ever ordered them. The B36 look nice, but I have a quite big collection of 6SN7 and 6V6. I do not plan to buy anything new.



Yep, that's why I steered clear of those tubes. Seems every popular tube type these days is going up. I'm massively irritated, I had some collections of tubes a while ago such as TS 12SN7, TS 6SN7, TS 6SL7, Brimar CV1988 and I sold them for more or less what I paid for them thinking I wouldn't need them any more. If I had kept them I could be sitting on a gold mine now!


----------



## OctavianH

It will happen the same with 6J5 and 6V6 since more and more amp builders are starting to use them. So buy while you can.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> It will happen the same with 6J5 and 6V6 since more and more amp builders are starting to use them. So buy while you can.



Haha I buy enough tubes for my tube amps. I had quite a few pairs of 6V6 when I had the Studio Six. Never did chase 6J5 because I was happy with the few good 6sn7 that I had, including one Mullard ECC33, ECC35 and the Sylvania 6sn7w metal base. I was on the verge of investing in EL34, 6L6G, KT88 but then I got Studio Six and Oblivion. My Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP was much earlier and I was using 8 x KT88. Sometimes I wish I had kept the Primaluna. HD800 was quite an experience on it.


----------



## OctavianH

Primaluna amps are something I always wanted to try, but also Cayin HA-6A is interesting. Both take advantage of 6V6 which normally are used on speaker amps but seems to act well on headphones in these 2 cases. Now we will hear what can happen if UltraSonic amps go this path. Interesting times we are living!


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Primaluna amps are something I always wanted to try, but also Cayin HA-6A is interesting. Both take advantage of 6V6 which normally are used on speaker amps but seems to act well on headphones in these 2 cases. Now we will hear what can happen if UltraSonic amps go this path. Interesting times we are living!



Are you using 6V6 or 6V6gt or both in Eternity? 6V6 and particularly 6V6gt are cheaper than those NOS EL34, KT77, KT88. 

6V6gt has a much tighter tone than it's 6V6 counterpart. That's how I hear it in Studio Six. You can tell me when you get Eternity.


----------



## OctavianH (Jan 24, 2021)

Yes, 6V6 and KTxx have the same pinout. Eternity will be able to use, directly or via adapters:

Output: KT66, KT77, KT88, KT120, KT150, 6550, 7581A, 6V6, EL3N, EL32, EL34, EL81, EL36, EL38 and most likely a lot more.
Input: 6SN7, 6F8G, 6C8G (barely), 6J5/6C5, 6N1P, C3G, EL3N again most likely a lot more.

Because of the wiring, EL34 will be directly compatible without adapter. Of course, bias will have to be adjusted for each tube type.

I plan to use 6V6 GT/G and even think about 5881 or 6P3S. For example this tube seems interesting:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6P3S-E-6...old-Grid-NOS-NEW-MILITARY-STRONG/171747079288


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## hpamdr

OctavianH said:


> I plan to use 6V6 GT/G and even think about 5881 or 6P3S. For example this tube seems interesting:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6P3S-E-6...old-Grid-NOS-NEW-MILITARY-STRONG/171747079288


 For the 6v6gt you have as a Russian equivalent 6n6p (old reflector black glass are pretty nice sounding).
For the 6L6 Russian 6p3s are also great specially the coin base enhanced version 6p3s-e. It is used in many fender amplifier with great success and known to by highly reliable.

Both will fit without issues in the regular output socket of eternity once biased...


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## OctavianH (Jan 24, 2021)

Many thanks @hpamdr for your advice. As far as you know, is there any difference between newer Reflektor 6P3S-E and older Foton 6P3S soundwise?
I had in the past Foton 6H8C pre '55 and they were much better than the 6H8C from the 60-70s. I wonder if it is the same case here.
The black glass ones you are mentioning are these?

Later edit:

Another bunch of people waiting for Eternity. I think even my beer is waiting for it but unfortunately it will not survive too long.


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## hpamdr (Jan 25, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> Many thanks @hpamdr for your advice. As far as you know, is there any difference between newer Reflektor 6P3S-E and older Foton 6P3S soundwise?


 What i was told is that the -E version is more reliable and able to handle higher voltage. It is not the same construction nor specification than the regular version. To me there should be some difference but as i do not have old version i cannot say which one is better than the other. Also in OTL what i have noticed is that when you try to do A/B testing in most of the case you find the one that have higher volume better.


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## DecentLevi

I wonder is there any advantage of a 6V6 over 6L6 tube? Both are beam power pentodes with same pinout and 6.3v, with the 6V6 having 0.45Ah vs. 0.9Ah with 6L6. And 6L6 is also interchangeable with the likes of KT66/77, EL34 &7581A.


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## hpamdr

DecentLevi said:


> I wonder is there any advantage of a 6V6 over 6L6 tube? Both are beam power pentodes with same pinout and 6.3v, with the 6V6 having 0.45Ah vs. 0.9Ah with 6L6. And 6L6 is also interchangeable with the likes of KT66/77, EL34 &7581A.


The advantage is probably *tube rolling pleasure* and finding a good set for some music/headphone. 
I tested EL32 in output with single 6n7gt as driver you could argue that it is a non-sense as el32 is only .3A but  for me it gives a sweet tone with relaxing jazz and medieval music using HD800s. With electronic music or less sensitive headphone it is not fast and detailed enough. So for sure it is not an ultimate set you can use for everything.
Also from 6L6, 6L6GC, KT66, EL34, ,KT77, KT88 even if pinout is equivalent, the specification and construction are not the same. And some prefer GEC KT77, or Brimar 6L6 or ..... GL KT88...
One of the advantage to use 6V6 and specially Russian equivalent over more powerful tubes is to keep your amp cool, save some money and still enjoying music.


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## DecentLevi (Jan 25, 2021)

I'm sending a box of tubes to SonicTrance for testing and biasing my upcoming Infinity amp, and here are some of my tubes I'll be using with it.

output (power) tubes




top: EL11 (these are input not out)
middle: EL12 & EL12N
bottom: EL12 Spez (Tesla & Telefunken)




top: EL38, EL39 (39's are in their own class of amazing)
bottom: GEC KT66

input tubes



top: EL32 (Marconi & Mullard straight form versions, and my only remaining curved version)
bottom: 6SN7, 6N7 & Melz 6H8C (6SN7)




top: Tungsram E80CC & RCA 12AV7 (uses special 12 to 6v adapter)
bottom: ECC88, 6CG7, 6N23P (this row all interchangeable in E88CC to 6SN7 adapter)
_  this ECC88 has a fuzzy soundstage, might it be the hair effect?  (__)_




top: MWT MHLD6, EL3N
bottom: 6J5 variants with GEC L63 on right




Plus I still got a bunch of adapters, thanks to @Deyan who built them for me (except the brass ones) when I was expecting a 2359Glenn amp. Luckily I can put most of them to good use on this custom order Infinity amp.

The Infinity accepts 2 input & 2 output tubes, along with 4 transformers and special topology; and in my case 2 output sockets designed around the 6L6 / EL34 /  KT66 series 3 input tubes so I can do either one 6SN7 or two 6J5 or others with adapters.

For the EL11, MHLD6 and EL32 adapters I had them designed around a single socket. The best adapter is none but since those need one anyway so I guess there's no point of going with two single adapters instead.

Other customizations on mine:

* 4-pin XLR headphone output
* RCA pre amp output on rear
* Speaker output on rear
* Dummy RCA jack: (connected to ground)
_   This was my idea allowing me to use "RCA tuning stick" for increased dampening _
* Two small bias adjustment knobs on top plate for grid biases but not plate voltage along with 3 ports for an external DMM volt-meter
* Headphone / speaker switch: one position for headphones and line-out simultaneously, and one position for only speakers
* Impedance switch: 3 Positions: headphone off, low, high
* 4 mA meters (two large on front, two smaller on top plate)
_   We thought one for each tube is better to specifically detect which tube is faulty rather than one per dual set_

Tomas had replaced the trimmer_(potentiometer)_+voltmeter concept of Infinity with trimmer + dip slot; now the user instead inserts an external voltmeter when adjusting the bias which is necessary to improve performance with tube rolling and prevent damage to the transformers. He explains this was done out of necessity for a no-compromise design and using a digital meter is better to give more accurate reading anyway, and I'm trusting his judgement.


----------



## OctavianH

What you show there is incredible, but I think you will be able to use EL32 only on output. At least this is my situation and on yours it might work also for Input. I like EL32 a lot and plan to try them with some EL32->6V6 adapters. Same for EL38 with some EL38-> 6V6 adapters.
Regarding sending all of these, I guess Tomas has a 6SN7 and the L63/6J5 have the same electrical specs, so I am not sure you need to send overseas all of those.

Congrats on your new amp, it seems a killer build!


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## DecentLevi (Jan 25, 2021)

yes I'm only sending about 1/2 of what you see because he has the mentioned tubes.
The verdict is still out with EL32 and EL11 as input tubes, something he will test.


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## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> I'm sending a box of tubes to SonicTrance for testing and biasing my upcoming Infinity amp, and here are some of my tubes I'll be using with it.


Nice collection of tubes there, Levi! 
As said before you can't use the EL32 as an input tube as it requires a too large negative voltage on the grid. The 12AV6 can't be used either because it'll run way too hot at almost double the max plate dissipation. 
All the rest looks fine!


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## DecentLevi

Oh that's weird because on Feliks Audio amps we also used EL32 as an input tube. I only have dual EL32 to single 6SN7 adapters for those, so is there any sense in sending those? Maybe yes, but to use them I would have to have a single EL32 to single KT66 adapter, right?

For 12AV7 I have an adapter specially wired to only draw 6v for use in a 6SN7 socket. I'll also include if you could test if it works as input tube?


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## OctavianH

On F.A. we used also KT88 as input. Actually in this moment I use 4 KT66 on it. On UltraSonic amps we will not use anymore output designed tubes on input, so I already started to make order in my adapters and to decide what I will use and what not. As a general rule I want to keep out tubes with strange sockets which I never liked and I had problems with adapters in the past like: EL3N, EL11 and so on. However, I would like to use C3g -> 6J5 and also ECC31 -> 6SN7 (usable as far as I know also for 6N7).


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## m-i-c-k-e-y (Jan 26, 2021)

Can you guyz make a tube rolling thread instead.. And let's focus on the amplifier part in here?


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## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> Oh that's weird because on Feliks Audio amps we also used EL32 as an input tube. I only have dual EL32 to single 6SN7 adapters for those, so is there any sense in sending those? Maybe yes, but to use them I would have to have a single EL32 to single KT66 adapter, right?
> 
> For 12AV7 I have an adapter specially wired to only draw 6v for use in a 6SN7 socket. I'll also include if you could test if it works as input tube?


If you really want I can configure your amp to be able to run the EL32 as driver. But it will run in the non-linear area of the tube. 

12AV6 will never work. I set the input stage to run at 4mA plate current. That tube will burn at 4mA!
In the stock version I use 6AV6, which is the same as 12AV6 but with a 6.3V heater. I run it at 1mA.


----------



## SonicTrance

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Can you guyz make a tube rolling thread instead.. And let's focus on the amplifier part in hear?


Its a good idea.


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## SonicTrance

SonicTrance said:


> If you really want I can configure your amp to be able to run the EL32 as driver. But it will run in the non-linear area of the tube.
> 
> 12AV6 will never work. I set the input stage to run at 4mA plate current. That tube will burn at 4mA!
> In the stock version I use 6AV6, which is the same as 12AV6 but with a 6.3V heater. I run it at 1mA.


@DecentLevi 
Sorry, I kept reading 12AV6 when you write 12AV7! The 12AV7 will work with your adapter, no problem!


----------



## hpamdr

DecentLevi said:


> I'm sending a box of tubes to SonicTrance for testing and biasing my upcoming Infinity amp, and here are some of my tubes I'll be using with it.
> 
> 8< -- snip isnip -->8
> 
> Tomas had replaced the trimmer_(potentiometer)_+voltmeter concept of Infinity with trimmer + dip slot; now the user instead inserts an external voltmeter when adjusting the bias which is necessary to improve performance with tube rolling and prevent damage to the transformers. He explains this was done out of necessity for a no-compromise design and using a digital meter is better to give more accurate reading anyway, and I'm trusting his judgement.


What a wonderful collection. Does your adapters (EL11,12,12spez,el3n,el38) are already built to fit EL34 or EL36 ? or did you asked dedicated sockets ?



OctavianH said:


> On F.A. we used also KT88 as input. Actually in this moment I use 4 KT66 on it. On UltraSonic amps we will not use anymore output designed tubes on input, so I already started to make order in my adapters and to decide what I will use and what not. As a general rule I want to keep out tubes with strange sockets which I never liked and I had problems with adapters in the past like: EL3N, EL11 and so on. However, I would like to use C3g -> 6J5 and also ECC31 -> 6SN7 (usable as far as I know also for 6N7).
> 
> 8< - - -


If you want to use EL32 in output, you will have to use a dedicated adapter as the cap is not on the anode like EL36/EL39 but on g3 (Same pinout as 6J7) but not to be used as 6J7 -> 6J5. 
EL11 and EL3N are usually used in both driver and output i do not know it it can be the same with Tomas SET amp.
What should be possible is also to use smaller tube like ECC88, 5814A, 6H23N, and even 6BQ7A  (Tubes from CTH, garage 1217 )  (I still have my CTH near my desk with K701)
Will you keep your F.A. amp to enjoy 6AS7g and 6080 ?


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## OctavianH (Jan 25, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> If you want to use EL32 in output, you will have to use a dedicated adapter as the cap is not on the anode like EL36/EL39 but on g3 (Same pinout as 6J7) but not to be used as 6J7 -> 6J5.
> EL11 and EL3N are usually used in both driver and output i do not know it it can be the same with Tomas SET amp.
> What should be possible is also to use smaller tube like ECC88, 5814A, 6H23N, and even 6BQ7A  (Tubes from CTH, garage 1217 )  (I still have my CTH near my desk with K701)
> Will you keep your F.A. amp to enjoy 6AS7g and 6080 ?



Yes, I will have dedicated adapters for EL32 and EL38. EL39 is also interesting to me but I do not own any so I said not a priority.

Regarding if I will sell F.A Elise I have no idea. I am a huge fan of 5998 and I have a few pairs but I will have to see how much I will like the Eternity. I usually prefer to sell equipment I am not using except tubes because I am not quite an amp roller, and even tube rolling is fun up to a limit but when I usually find a combination I like I keep it. This is why 90% of my tube collection is not used anymore, but at least the value is not decreasing and I hope I'll have more time when I'll be older to play with it.

By the way, I agree with those who asked to move the tube rolling into a separate thread. I do not want to fill this one with not needed information, but I also want to continue to discuss with the ones interested. How should we proceed? Do we make a new thread? I do not care who is making it if it will be available in the future to edit the first posts with links and summary information in order to help us find stuff in it. And of course, when he does it, please put "Reserved" in the first 3 posts, to be sure we have enough character limit for all stuff we will need and the discussions will start at post 4 or something.


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## DecentLevi (Jan 25, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> What a wonderful collection. Does your adapters (EL11,12,12spez,el3n,el38) are already built to fit EL34 or EL36 ? or did you asked dedicated sockets ?
> 
> If you want to use EL32 in output, you will have to use a dedicated adapter as the cap is not on the anode like EL36/EL39 but on g3 (Same pinout as 6J7) but not to be used as 6J7 -> 6J5.
> EL11 and EL3N are usually used in both driver and output i do not know it it can be the same with Tomas SET amp.
> ...


Yup I had the output sockets designed around the 6L6 series so those and EL34, KT66 and similar would work natively, and my adapters are designed to work in a KT66 socket so should be good, and Tomas will test everything during the build. I'm not familiar with EL36. Is this compatible or recommended?

I also have a few miniature tubes and adapter so I can use it in the 6SN7 socket with the likes of ECC88, 6N23P and 6CG7 as drivers, to see if they sound well.



OctavianH said:


> Yes, I will have dedicated adapters for EL32 and EL38. EL39 is also interesting to me but I do not own any so I said not a priority.
> 
> Regarding if I will sell F.A Elise I have no idea. I am a huge fan of 5998 and I have a few pairs but I will have to see how much I will like the Eternity. I usually prefer to sell equipment I am not using except tubes because I am not quite an amp roller, and even tube rolling is fun up to a limit but when I usually find a combination I like I keep it. This is why 90% of my tube collection is not used anymore, but at least the value is not decreasing and I hope I'll have more time when I'll be older to play with it.
> 
> By the way, I agree with those who asked to move the tube rolling into a separate thread. I do not want to fill this one with not needed information, but I also want to continue to discuss with the ones interested. How should we proceed? Do we make a new thread? I do not care who is making it if it will be available in the future to edit the first posts with links and summary information in order to help us find stuff in it. And of course, when he does it, please put "Reserved" in the first 3 posts, to be sure we have enough character limit for all stuff we will need and the discussions will start at post 4 or something.


The EL39 is a queen of nirvana and basically incomparable IMO so don't pass these up. There's a few on eBay you can see more listings on Hifishark. They need their _own _adapter.

I wouldn't be against a separate thread. An Ultrasonic Studios tube rolling thread would focus mostly on Infinity I would guess, since that's their main amp that has tube rolling capability. Or we could make it a thread for Infinity and tube rolling, but maybe the first idea is better for any tube rolling on their amps. I would say an occasional mention on this thread of tube rolling would be OK for anything significant but not as a habit.


This is how I wanna 'roll'   :
*Nirvana*_ is a place of perfect peace and happiness, like heaven. In Hinduism and Buddhism, nirvana is the highest state that someone can attain, a state of enlightenment, meaning a person's individual desires and suffering go away. ... Achieving nirvana is to make earthly feelings like suffering and desire disappear. _


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## OctavianH

DecentLevi said:


> I wouldn't be against a separate thread. An Ultrasonic Studios tube rolling thread would focus mostly on Infinity I would guess, since that's their main amp that has tube rolling capability. Or we could make it a thread for Infinity and tube rolling, but maybe the first idea is better for any tube rolling on their amps. I would say an occasional mention on this thread of tube rolling would be OK for anything significant but not as a habit.



Basically both our amps are based on Infinity stock. You will have one in the same chassis as Infinity with Tube rolling add-on and redesign around different tubes add-on + some specific custom features you asked. I will have Eternity which is the smaller brother of Infinity, in a smaller chasis, a low power version built only for headphones (no preamp function) and with different operating points for input and output stage. Mine will have also some custom features I have asked but I avoid to present them until they are ready, since they might be subject of change. I do not want to let people into confusion.

Differences, on short list, as far as I see:
- Your Infinity custom - big chassis, drivers speakers and headphones, has tube rolling implemented
- My Eternity - new name since it has a different chassis and preamp function, a smaller amp just for headphone use with the same tube rolling mechanism as the other

I expect that many tube rolling remarks on the thread are valid for both, even the bias adjustment mechanism is the same. BUT the voltages we need to set in each stage are different (at least output as far as I understood) so the thread has to be specifically mentioning settings for both amps for a tube type just to be sure no one mismatches them and sets the voltage for your output stage on my smaller amp because I expect it will damage the amplifier.

All these remarks about different tubes, adapters or bias adjustments are not useful for the Oblivion and Citadel owners and I guess should be hosted separately.


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## UntilThen (Jan 26, 2021)

This thread has exploded since I last visited. 

There's a lot to be excited about for Infinity and Eternity. I for one will be watching closely. Btw, I agree with all that a separate tube rolling thread for those amps will be beneficial.

@OctavianH  did you say there's a queue for Eternity?  Sonic amps are nice and sound good. Oblivion will remain on my top shelf. It will be a legacy.

DL and Oct wonderful collection of tubes there. Tubes collecting is a passion.


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## OctavianH

Guys, let's move here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/infinity-and-eternity-tube-rolling-thread-ultrasonic-studios.953317/
I reserved first 3 posts for summary, links and useful information. The rest is for our tubes, pictures, beers and so on


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## BzzzzzT

DecentLevi said:


> I'm sending a box of tubes to SonicTrance for testing and biasing my upcoming Infinity amp, and here are some of my tubes I'll be using with it.
> 
> output (power) tubes
> 
> ...



Beautiful tube collection!


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## BzzzzzT (Jan 26, 2021)

For tube rolling, just be aware that tubes will sound different in this circuit, compared to an OTL or a traditional SET.


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## OctavianH (Jan 27, 2021)

BzzzzzT said:


> For tube rolling, just be aware that tubes will sound different in this circuit, compared to an OTL or a traditional SET.



I am sure about this, the question is: in which way different?

PS. Let's move all tube rolling discussions here and respect the wish of the owners of Oblivion and Citadel which cannot use this information and just have to filter our posts to read valuable info for them.


----------



## Magol79

Do we know the physical dimensions of the Eternity yet?


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## SonicTrance

Magol79 said:


> Do we know the physical dimensions of the Eternity yet?


The chassis will be 330x290mm, front panel slightly wider. I believe 350mm. About 250mm in height. I'll update with exact dimensions once the first one is built.


----------



## UntilThen

Today I return to my work accommodation and to Oblivion. This is the first time I heard Oblivion since Christmas Eve and also the first time I heard Oblivion driving my He1000se with Yggdrasil as dac. 

It was a magic moment. My jaw was literally open. I cannot believe what I'm hearing. I have been experimenting with a range of amps since Christmas Eve. 5 amps precisely but this is the best I've heard He1000se with Oblivion. It's mind blowing. Oblivion isn't going anywhere but will stay right here!

Anyone who's on the fence about getting Oblivion or Citadel, get it now and get a He1000se. Details and clarity jumps at you and the soundstage.... largest I've ever experience in a headphone amp. Intoxicating tone.

Have a look at my new headphone station in this picture. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sho...e-no-old-pictures-please.529140/post-16162225


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## UntilThen (Feb 7, 2021)

It was about 5pm when I reach the city's capital. I was tired after the drive but I was eager to setup the 2 racks which I had pick up for $100 just before Christmas. I didn't have time to set it up then. So had to wait till now. After I set it up, I had to decide which gear goes where on the rack. When it was done, I was very eager to hear Elekit TU-8200, especially with how it sound driving my Axis Voicebox S speakers. I had obsessed about TU-8200 all this while when I couldn't get to Oblivion. After listening to a few songs on 8200, I was very happy. Then I turn to Oblivion and told myself that it's time to try it with He1000se. So I power it on and selected a song, put Hekse on my head and I had a nirvana moment - literally. If I thought Elekit TU-8200 is good, Oblivion sounded a smite better to my ears. I couldn't believe what I'm hearing. My ears were assaulted with micro and macro details swimming all around the inside of my head. It's like I had step into a VMAX cinema and everything I hear becomes 3D. I know I sound like a person consumed but this is no new toy. Oblivion has been in my possession since Christmas of 2019. I must admit that late Christmas of 2020, I had contemplated switching my gear to something new simply because I'm until then. I needed to move on in my audio journey. However even as I type this early morning at 5am on a Monday, I knew once again how special Oblivion is and I told myself it will sit there up on top of the 2nd rack. There will be other amps and they will sit below. 

I am listening to the Wild Theme by Mark Knopfler and I had goosebumps literally. Music became so surreal on the He1000se with Oblivon and Yggdrasil. That's the other thing - I had not use Yggdrasil since Christmas Eve too. When I went home for Christmas and subsequent working from home, I had left Oblivion and Yggdrasil behind. In their absence I bought Bifrost 2, Questyle CMA 12, Violectric v280, Schiit Mjolnir 2, La Figaro 339i, SMSL SP200 THX AAA 888 and then the new and cheap wonderkid Elekit TU-8200. I was obsessed with my new gear until I came back yesterday - you have no idea how much I have missed in that time. 2 important items in my main setup, sounding so lovely yet I go spending on the other gear.

Mjolnir 2 will be sold today. A buyer is paying for it today, the same amount as I had bought it. La Figaro 339i is almost gone. In fact it has gone to a friend but I may change my mind and get it back after 2 weeks. Some gear I need to keep and the LF339i is one of them and the Oblivion is definitely a keeper.

and so the audio journey continues...


----------



## UntilThen

Oblivion driving my Axis Voicebox S now. For nearfield listening, it's beautiful !


----------



## UntilThen

Even in the absence of my Rega Rp8 which I had left behind in Sydney, the budget friendly Denon DP300f which my wife gave me 4 years ago, with a new 2M Blue cartridge sounds really good with Oblivion driving the Axis Voicebox S speakers in nearfield. I had brought half my vinyl collections here. I will have so much fun playing vinyl again.


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## SonicTrance

@UntilThen 
I'm very glad that an "amp roller" like yourself is still enjoying your Oblivion!


----------



## Zachik

@UntilThen - are you using stock tubes with your Oblivion? or did you load the amp with multi-thousand $ tubes?

I am also curious whether anyone experienced any RF interference issues with the top-cap tubes?  
I have limited experience, trying 6F8G tubes (with adapter) on my CTH amp.  RF interference was so bad - I had to unplug my wifi access point


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> @UntilThen
> I'm very glad that an "amp roller" like yourself is still enjoying your Oblivion!



I love Oblivion but now I am determined that I will have you build me another tube amp that is the classic tube amp tone (SET) that will respond well to tube changes. Specifically I want to use KT88, KT77, KT66, EL34, 6L6GC, 6550 with drivers such as 12AT7 / 12AU7 (unless you think 12AX7 is necessary or other drivers as you advise - maybe 6SL7 or 12SL7 ? the latter I have a pair of NOS TS bgrp which I LOVE) and preferably with auto bias but if I have to manually adjust bias, it must be very easy like flicking a switch. I want no hassles but just to enjoy music with the tube amp. Doable? I'll be talking to you privately. So rather than thinking about a Mogwai Se or another custom amp, I'm looking to you as my amp designer and builder because I have every confidence that if you could produce Oblivion to sound so good, you would know how to do this other amp I have in mind and I want Infinity kind of looks. I want 8w or 10w into 8ohms. That should drive my speakers beautifully and also my future Susvara and He6se. I'm excited already !



Zachik said:


> @UntilThen - are you using stock tubes with your Oblivion? or did you load the amp with multi-thousand $ tubes?
> 
> Of course. You can't tube roll in Oblivion and you don't need to. It sounds absolutely gorgeous as it is.
> 
> ...



Not a whipser, hum, hiss or RF interference from my top cap tubes in Oblivion. I hold my iPhone next to it and no issues at all - except it say "Hello".


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Not a whipser, hum, hiss or RF interference from my top cap tubes in Oblivion. I hold my iPhone next to it and no issues at all - except it say "Hello".


Which tubes are you using? Stock? or NOS tubes that cost more than the amp?


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Which tubes are you using? Stock? or NOS tubes that cost more than the amp?



For Oblivion I’m just using stock tubes. For Elekit TU-8200 then I bought all those expensive NOS GEC KT66 and EL34.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> For Oblivion I’m just using stock tubes.


Thanks. After reading your enthusiastic impressions - I was curious to know if that is the expected experience "out of the box" or whether you need very expensive tubes to release the magic. You answered that one for me.
(now if I only had physical space for 1-more amp... )


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Thanks. After reading your enthusiastic impressions - I was curious to know if that is the expected experience "out of the box" or whether you need very expensive tubes to release the magic. You answered that one for me.
> (now if I only had physical space for 1-more amp... )



First of all, you need 2 racks and when you have filled that up, you need a 3rd rack.

The beauty of Oblivion and Citadel is you don’t need expensive tubes to make it sound good because tubes don’t make much difference- that is different type. A little bit but not much difference.

The best way for me to describe Oblivion tone is to think of it as being on the opposite side of tha spectrum from Auris Nirvana, the made in Serbia amp is warm and lush. Oblivion is about details and clarity but with some tube tone influence. What I would like is to have 2 tube amps such as these because the contrast will fulfill all my needs. Oblivion is very quiet, cool running all the hallmarks of a lovely tube amp.

So I want to talk to Tomas if he can produce an amp with a lot more 2nd harmonic distortions. He may already have in the Infinity.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> @UntilThen
> I'm very glad that an "amp roller" like yourself is still enjoying your Oblivion!



I almost read that as tube roller lol but the truth I'm both tube and amp rolling. Fact is I did not roll for the sake of rolling. I am trying to determine my sound signature. In the ss amps that I have, there are several with a very nice signature, such as the v280. For the classic tubes amps, both Wa22 and LF339i present their very unique tone that varies a lot with tube changes. Here it is important to understand why people such as myself roll tubes because we are trying to get the tone that our ears like. We are not doing for show or for the fun it. For instance, a Bendix 6080 sound very different from TS 5998.

I love Oblivion because it is so unique and also for the clarity, details, airiness and very wide soundstage. The tone is even a little sweet. Certainly not your clinical, sterile ss amp because this is not an ss amp. It has tubes as input. The fact that I find it sounding better than even the Elekit TU-8200 with Sylvania 12au7 and Gold Lion KT77 says something about Oblivion. He1000se is a very revealing headphone and Oblivion just turn that notch up further. It's a revelation !


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> I am also curious whether anyone experienced any RF interference issues with the top-cap tubes?
> I have limited experience, trying 6F8G tubes (with adapter) on my CTH amp. RF interference was so bad - I had to unplug my wifi access point



I use Tung Sol 6F8G in the Wa22. It's whisper quiet. No hum hiss for me. Whether the router is near or not makes no difference for me. The TS 6F8G bgrp is a very good tube.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> For Oblivion I’m just using stock tubes. For Elekit TU-8200 then I bought all those expensive NOS GEC KT66 and EL34.


At least they were not KT88s...😳😬😢...


----------



## UntilThen

GEC KT88 NOS tubes are not for the faint hearted. I sometimes question the logic of spending AUD$1100 for a pair. Quad pair from my supplier is AUD$2200. If I were to buy those NOS tubes I'd be reluctant to burn it.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> First of all, you need 2 racks and when you have filled that up, you need a 3rd rack.


I already have 2 racks, and both are filled up. I am not joking (for a change)!
No physical space for a 3rd rack... sigh...



UntilThen said:


> I use Tung Sol 6F8G in the Wa22. It's whisper quiet. No hum hiss for me. Whether the router is near or not makes no difference for me. The TS 6F8G bgrp is a very good tube.


I wonder why my experience is different 
Tried several different 6F8G tubes, and 2 different adapters (to 6922). Including 1 from an audiophile who used it with zero issues. Still loud hum. I wonder why


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> I already have 2 racks, and both are filled up. I am not joking (for a change)!
> No physical space for a 3rd rack... sigh...



Picture please 

OMG my combo of Elekit TU-8500 and TU-8200 have me grabbing the power pole. I'm using Brimar 12au7 long plates and Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 xf2 in TU-8200 and Philips Miniwatt 12au7 in TU-8500. I'll post picture in the Elekit TU-8200 thread.


----------



## hpamdr

Zachik said:


> I am also curious whether anyone experienced any RF interference issues with the top-cap tubes?
> I have limited experience, trying 6F8G tubes (with adapter) on my CTH amp.  RF interference was so bad - I had to unplug my wifi access point


 I'm also proud owner of a moded CTH amplifier, and can confirm that this amp is not the cleanest in respect to heating hum and rfi sensibility.  
To fight against rfi what i still do is to* enclose tubes in a metal can on top of the amp,* what i did also is to add small ferrite on the wire near the cap. Adding ferrites can also have some unwanted effect if you add too much.


----------



## Zachik

hpamdr said:


> I'm also proud owner of a moded CTH amplifier


moded how? Mine is stock, other than using the adapter...



hpamdr said:


> what i did also is to add small ferrite on the wire near the cap. Adding ferrites can also have some unwanted effect if you add too much.


Tried that. Zero change for me.

Sorry for derailing the Oblivion thread guys... I was just concerned about RF interference due to very bad experience with top cap tubes in the past, and the Oblivion uses such tubes!


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I love Oblivion but now I am determined that I will have you build me another tube amp that is the classic tube amp tone (SET) that will respond well to tube changes. Specifically I want to use KT88, KT77, KT66, EL34, 6L6GC, 6550 with drivers such as 12AT7 / 12AU7 (unless you think 12AX7 is necessary or other drivers as you advise - maybe 6SL7 or 12SL7 ? the latter I have a pair of NOS TS bgrp which I LOVE) and preferably with auto bias but if I have to manually adjust bias, it must be very easy like flicking a switch. I want no hassles but just to enjoy music with the tube amp. Doable? I'll be talking to you privately. So rather than thinking about a Mogwai Se or another custom amp, I'm looking to you as my amp designer and builder because I have every confidence that if you could produce Oblivion to sound so good, you would know how to do this other amp I have in mind and I want Infinity kind of looks. I want 8w or 10w into 8ohms. That should drive my speakers beautifully and also my future Susvara and He6se. I'm excited already !
> 
> 
> 
> Not a whipser, hum, hiss or RF interference from my top cap tubes in Oblivion. I hold my iPhone next to it and no issues at all - except it say "Hello".


I think we need to talk in private 


Zachik said:


> Sorry for derailing the Oblivion thread guys... I was just concerned about RF interference due to very bad experience with top cap tubes in the past, and the Oblivion uses such tubes!


IME tubes that has a grid cap is much more sensitive for noise pickup than tubes with anode caps. An input tube grid is very sensitive for noise. What @hpamdr suggested would work. Also get an adapter with shielded grid wire could work. I've never had noise problems with tubes that has anode caps.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I think we need to talk in private



Yes we do.


----------



## UntilThen

In private talks with Tomas regarding my next amp. More details once design are finalised. Tomas is outstanding as usual in his correspondence. The ideas he put forth gets me really excited. I'll get in the queue like everyone else but expect to see production of it happening in June or July pending no unusual circumstances that might prevent it.


----------



## hpamdr (Feb 11, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> In private talks with Tomas regarding my next amp. More details once design are finalised. Tomas is outstanding as usual in his correspondence. The ideas he put forth gets me really excited. I'll get in the queue like everyone else but expect to see production of it happening in June or July pending no unusual circumstances that might prevent it.


@UntilThen  This will be your 2021 amp I hope it will deserve a good place in your Rack3 .
I also agree Tomas is very knowledgeable very kind during amp design discussion a huge


----------



## OctavianH

I am really curious about you both and what have you decided to add to your amps. I am sure that each new amp will be different and I will have something to learn from it. And if the plans are for summer, it means there are 2-3 other people in between. Let's hope they will step forward and tell us something about their upcoming amps.


----------



## UntilThen (Feb 11, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> @UntilThen  This will be your 2021 amp I hope it will deserve a good place in your Rack3 .
> I also agree Tomas is very knowledgeable a very kind during amp design discussion a huge



There will be no 3rd rack that I can assure you. Some of my present amps will go. Eventually only Elekit combo, Oblivion and Odyssey will remain.... and v280 as my only solid state amp. I might change that to v281 because I like that shape better. I know it's been discontinued but that won't stop me from owning it.

I have let the cat out of the bag. The next amp will be call Odyssey, my logon in my local forum. This amp will be special because I even get to choose my own name for it and it will be on the badge. Odyssey will sit on the top of the 2nd rack because it can get hot with KT120, KT150. Yes those tubes are in addition to what I have stated before. Power will be aplenty to drive speakers and hard to drive headphones. He6se and Susvara will be too easy peasy for it. Oblivion will slot below because it's hardly hot and I don't need to change tubes in that amp.

I wasn't going to give out more details but since @OctavianH ask, I just might volunteer some info but do remember this is the concept phase and things can still change. The main idea is that because I already have Oblivion which sound very clear, full of micro details, 3D wide soundstage, Odyssey will be a classic old school tube kind of design. It will be SET, ie transformer coupled and using good specialised transformers with taps of 8 and 50 ohms for headphones and speakers, Mundorf S/G/O caps and maybe Visnay resistors. It can be use with KT88, KT77, KT66, 6L6GC, 6550, 5881, 807, EL34, EL12 SPEZ, KT120, KT150, etc. With the last 2 tubes, output power will be plenty to drive speakers and certainly any headphones, including He6se and Susvara and any other power hungry headphones.

I don't like the chassis to be as big as Infinity. Even Oblivion chassis will work but it's most likely I'll opt for a special chassis that has a Viking look haha. It will have triode and ultralinear modes and I've ask for a 'keep it simple and stupid principle' in looks. I.e no manual adjustments of bias. Maybe 2 settings that will be accomplished with the flick of a switch.

There will be speakers banana plugs out and preamp out. xlr and rca input even though it's not a balance amp, purely to cater for my 2 inputs - Yggdrasil via xlr and turntable via rca. 2 beautiful meters - I don't care what it does as long as it dance in time to the music lol. Tomas will have given up by now lol.

Headphone out will be 1/4 inch jack and xlr balance out. Again I repeat this is not a balance amp. Those xlr balance connectors are just for convenience as all my headphone cables are terminated with 4pin xlr out and also in consideration of Yggdrasil balance out being better. I'll use primarily NOS tubes - drivers to be decided or I'm not talking about it in case ebay sellers watching jack up those tube prices. Power tubes are all NOS and will be source from my private 'friend' who will make me bankrupt investing in the likes of GEC KT88, KT77, KT66 and Philips Miniwatt 6CA7, Tung Sol 1960s 6550 (super rare), Radiotron 807 with the D^D logo, my own 5 pairs of NOS Telefunken and Tesla EL12 spez tubes. There's is a possibility that I might get a pair of GEC TT21 NOS tubes. I think that's enough. I won't be using 6V6 or 6L6 as those require less power which means another bias setting. Besides I want good sounding and powerful and sweet sounding tubes. This is when the odyssey voyage comes to an end, so it will be some amp but not overly over the top. There should be budget later for Susvara, He6se and Abyss 1266 phi TC.

After which I'll be spinning my vinyls and going through Tidal HiFi catalogue. Am I interested in a streamer later? Possibly but certainly a power conditioner, proper power cables, interconnects and speaker cables. After which I'll retire UntilThen and come back as TheEnd.

P/s as I type, I get a message from Tomas, suggesting a stylish wooden chassis. Now I'm getting a bit more excited. Either that or a stylish aircraft grade 10mm aluminium casing in gun metal grey or maroon red or gold. Now I'm getting over the top.


----------



## OctavianH

Thank you for your detailed explanations. Congrats! Odyssey is also a very special and nice name. It sounds to me you will be, in the end, TheEnd!


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Thank you for your detailed explanations. Congrats! Odyssey is also a very special and nice name. It sounds to me you will be, in the end, TheEnd!



 what I want Odyssey to be is a classic tube amp tone with great 2nd harmonic distortions. When I heard Auris Nirvana with LCD-4, I told myself that my next amp will sound similar to that. Texture laden, slight warm, great dynamics, clarity and details, good soundstage and solid seismic like bass that will hit you in the chest, slam and with some bite. Top end must be revealing and not rounded off. It has to go low to middle earth.

I hope I'm not asking too much.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> what I want Odyssey to be is a classic tube amp tone with great 2nd harmonic distortions. When I heard Auris Nirvana with LCD-4, I told myself that my next amp will sound similar to that. Texture laden, slight warm, great dynamics, clarity and details, good soundstage and solid seismic like bass that will hit you in the chest, slam and with some bite. Top end must be revealing and not rounded off. It has to go low to middle earth.
> 
> I hope I'm not asking too much.



Solid seismic bass makes me think about Thor. That is also a good name for a viking shaped amplifier. By the way, I do not want to discuss here offtopic but it is not clear to me what inputs you will have.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Solid seismic bass makes me think about Thor. That is also a good name for a viking shaped amplifier. By the way, I do not want to discuss here offtopic but it is not clear to me what inputs you will have.



Inputs will be xlr and rca. xlr for Yggdrasil and RCA for my turntable to connect. Is that what you're asking? So I have 2 source input and there will be a switch at the back, so as not to spoil the looks in front. A wooden case most likely in walnut black like this BUT not sure if all that I ask for will fit in .... so a slightly bigger case maybe needed. Btw this case is almost Oblivion size.

Now I'm tempted to have tube rectification.... but not sure about this.... I'll be guided by Tomas on this. Sound before looks that's for sure.


----------



## OctavianH

I was thinking about input tubes (drivers, but on UltraSonic amps Tomas calls them inputs).


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I was thinking about input tubes (drivers, but on UltraSonic amps Tomas calls them inputs).



I see  Now I'm giving out more secrets lol.

Drivers are my suggestions and subject to Tomas making simulations to ensure that they are optimum to drive the power tubes. I suggested 12au7, 12at7 and 6sl7. Was going to suggest 12sl7 as I have a pair of very beautiful Tung Sol 12sl7gt bgrp. However I won't go this route if it complicates things. Remember the KISS design philosophy. Whatever is not needed will not be in. So keeping switches, tube variations to just the right sensible amount. Not going nuts asking for multiple inputs and power outputs. 

Most likely will be the 12au7 as I've already invested and will continue to invest in very good 12au7 - such as Brimar 12au7 long plates, Philips Miniwatt 12au7, Amperex 12au7 at $200 a piece and rare Tung Sol 1960s 12au7 - again $200 a piece. In the Elekit TU-8200R, driver changes affect the tone more than those fancy expensive power tubes. Not sure if that is the case with Odyssey. I could use and will have to use current production tubes for KT120 and KT150 because there aren't any NOS ones for those. KT150 especially can output some serious watts in this amp but I ask that it not be over driven to burn out my precious NOS tubes too quickly lol and also I ask that the old school amp be given some consideration to make it a bit cool. Hopefully it's not as hot as the 8 x KT88 in my previous Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP. That is a Winter warmer that's for sure.


----------



## UntilThen (Feb 11, 2021)

It looks like I may not use my precious Telefunken and Siemens EL11 and EL12 as in the words of Tomas, these as power tubes will be too skimpy compared to the KT88 and cousins monsters. So I may be looking to sell off my NOS brand new mother of pearl EL11 and some EL12. PM me if interested.

I'm editing this post now because I'll put the idea of selling EL11 till later when I'm absolutely sure I can't use them as drivers because they sound great as drivers when I experimented with them in Elise and Euforia.


----------



## UntilThen

Finally the last give away but of course will depend on final outcome.... power.

Tomas told me power will likely be 10w in triode mode and a few more watts in Ultralinear mode - so I'm expecting 15w in UL mode. Now that will make my Axis Voicebox S sing.
https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/axis/1.html


----------



## UntilThen

Just hooked up Oblivion to my Axis Voicebox S and it's driving it so well at nearfield listening. Oblivion is only 2.3w into 8ohms. Imagine Odyssey driving Voicebox with 10w triode or 12 to 15w UL @ 8 ohms.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm very stoked about this amp conceptual journey because Tomas is very keen on the idea and is constantly providing his input which I will need, especially the technical aspect because I won't know anything about that. He discuss about custom winding transformers... now the transformers are very important in this design and I will go with the idea of a Mercedes but not a Ferrari because I can't afford a Ferrari. However after a few glasses of wine, I might be ok with a Lamborghini  !

Was even thinking of a model to go with it but hmmmm ..... might have to think hard about that. This is when you have to make smart decisions. What do you say @paramesh ? I always consult my guru friend. I don't normally joke like this with friends but Paramesh is special and I have gotten to know him very well ! The problem is he keeps wanting to buy my Oblivion after buying my Glenn OTL amp. Later he might want my Lamborghini.


----------



## UntilThen

Tomas I have just found my dream speakers. I want Odyssey to power it !!!

https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/338290-fs-dynaudio-consequence-ultimate-edition/


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> I'm very stoked about this amp conceptual journey because Tomas is very keen on the idea and is constantly providing his input which I will need, especially the technical aspect because I won't know anything about that. He discuss about custom winding transformers... now the transformers are very important in this design and I will go with the idea of a Mercedes but not a Ferrari because I can't afford a Ferrari. However after a few glasses of wine, I might be ok with a Lamborghini  !
> 
> Was even thinking of a model to go with it but hmmmm ..... might have to think hard about that. This is when you have to make smart decisions. What do you say @paramesh ? I always consult my guru friend. I don't normally joke like this with friends but Paramesh is special and I have gotten to know him very well ! The problem is he keeps wanting to buy my Oblivion after buying my Glenn OTL amp. Later he might want my Lamborghini.


So call it black lambo..


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Tomas I have just found my dream speakers. I want Odyssey to power it !!!
> 
> https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/338290-fs-dynaudio-consequence-ultimate-edition/


If you want to be sure that your amp will do the job, you can go with KlipscHorn this will fit perfectly with old school design and you can find the same wood finish as the one of your amp. (85db of sensitivity for the dynaudio could be OK with 15-20W 4 Ohm but you will not have the sound of wembley stadium lives)


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

UntilThen said:


> _ I will go with the idea of a Mercedes but not a Ferrari because I can't afford a Ferrari. However after a few glasses of wine, I might be ok with a Lamborghini  _



A few glasses more you're Mercedes will surely look like a Ferrari...


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> If you want to be sure that your amp will do the job, you can go with KlipscHorn this will fit perfectly with old school design and you can find the same wood finish as the one of your amp. (85db of sensitivity for the dynaudio could be OK with 15-20W 4 Ohm but you will not have the sound of wembley stadium lives)



Hahaha ... nope. I was just kidding. No one knows how good a pair of Axis Voicebox S sound except the reviewer of 6moon, John Reilly / Brad Serhan and me ... and quite a few Singaporean who owns it. This monitor has the tonality of natural voice - hence voicebox. Even the conductor of the Singapore SSO endorsed it. 

These are the monitors that my Oblivion can drive to adequate levels at nearfield listening but with the forth coming Odyssey, it will be a different kettle of fish. These are the monitors in my setup flanking my curve model.


----------



## UntilThen

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> A few glasses more you're Mercedes will surely look like a Ferrari...



Hahaha and a few glasses more it will look like a Lamborghini.... and a few glasses more and it will come with a super model. When I wake up in the morning after the hang over, there will be Odyssey before me and I'll be totally satisfied and it will be the end of my amp gear hunt journey ... then it's just listening to music.


----------



## UntilThen

Now I'm wondering how this Godzilla will fit in with Odyssey. Ahhhh .... maybe Odyssey preamp out to the Kenwood legendary KA 3300D and I can buy that much loved Tannoy Westminster Royals. Just got an email telling me that I won $11 in last night Powerball draw. Perhaps they miss the ,000,000 in the print.  Yes the Kenwood is in the service shop for new spark plugs, oil change and total re-tubed !


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Hahaha and a few glasses more it will look like a Lamborghini.... and a few glasses more and it will come with a super model. When I wake up in the morning after the hang over, *there will be Odyssey before me and I'll be totally satisfied and it will be the end of my amp gear hunt journey* ... then it's just listening to music.


"Until then": gear lust like the rest of us.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> "Until then": gear lust like the rest of us.



except I have gear lust for 5 years and it’s about to end with a conscious effort on my part on what my final amp will be.

yggdrasil will be upgraded. I anticipate Oblivion and Odyssey to have 2 opposing sound signature, both very enticing in their own way.

I have not seen Tomas this excited talking about a build since the early days when he spoke to me about Oblivion. The difference is that this time it’s my own initiatives and I specify what I want and he’s all on board.


----------



## UntilThen

The last idea Tomas float to me was to go with tube rectifiers so as to really go all out in old school design - I really like that !

Now I need to see what tube rectifiers are allowed.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> The last idea Tomas float to me was to go with tube rectifiers so as to really go all out in old school design - I really like that !
> 
> Now I need to see what tube rectifiers are allowed.


Tube rectifier is the perfect match with this kind of design and expected warm and vintage hifi tube tone. Using NOS(_before 1970_) Mullard GZ34 rectifier will bring you to Nirvana. With all the design choice you push I guess that you will get is an oblivion on steroid with loudness enabled 

Also be aware that you will have to add one dimension to your tube combination. (_Be prepared for a new quest._)

You can probably ask Tomas (@SonicTrance ) to build a dedicated hexfred SS rectifier inside an octal socket this will give you a reference and also another flavor using speaker or dynamic headphone_. (This is what 2359Glenn was offering as an option in the GOTL and some other amp). __You can also get it fully built__.._


----------



## UntilThen (Feb 12, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> _ (This is what 2359Glenn was offering as an option in the GOTL and some other amp). __You can also get it fully built__.._



Did you not know I had the Glenn OTL amp before it became widely sought after?

Anyway if I decide to go with tube rectification, I won't bother with some kind of hexfred. The less adapters the better.


----------



## OctavianH

Rectifiers sound nice, but if I'll ever have an amplifier with something like this, I'll definitely have an OTL with WE 422A and WE 421A as outputs. Go big or go home, like they say.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Rectifiers sound nice, but if I'll ever have an amplifier with something like this, I'll definitely have an OTL with WE 422A and WE 421A as outputs. Go big or go home, like they say.



Don't you know this amp use KT88 and equivalents and will not accept WE 421A?  Those belong in a 6as7 / 6080 amp. 

As for tube rectifiers I'm waiting for Tomas to let me know if what rectifiers are suitable. Depending on the amp, WE 422A is not a given. Besides I rather forget about that tube. I have Cossor 53ku, GEC u52, Mullard gz34 and depending on whether GZ32 can be use, I have a pair. Might have to go 5U4G or Sophia Electric 274b. 

Well no point speculating. This is where I listen to the amp builder. He knows.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Don't you know this amp use KT88 and equivalents and will not accept WE 421A?  Those belong in a 6as7 / 6080 amp.



I was not referring to your amp, I know that. I was thinking at a future amplifier for me, an OTL with 6AS7. Until I die I will have such an amplifier and a WE 422A.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I was not referring to your amp, I know that. I was thinking at a future amplifier for me, an OTL with 6AS7. Until I die I will have such an amplifier and a WE 422A.



Tomas can build you such an amp.


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 12, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Tomas can build you such an amp.



At the moment I am far behind in my journey, I wait to experiment the "modern" amps. After a while I will do this. It is something I have to do and in the meantime watch closely your amp since it will be the first classic design from him.
By the way, your will be a SET, I am not sure if Tomas builds classic OTL.

Later edit:
Since this amplifier has to be my final one I'll reserve a slot in Tomas' agenda for Q1 2040. It has to be Black Sabbath themed, with electric guitar knobs for volume and all switches and the cover of Vol. 4 on the top panel.  Hmm, timing not good, 2045 to have 75 years since the release of the first album. Much better.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> The last idea Tomas float to me was to go with tube rectifiers so as to really go all out in old school design - I really like that !
> 
> Now I need to see what tube rectifiers are allowed.


I can build around the GZ34 as it has a low voltage drop. You could then use other rectifiers with higher voltage drop to alter the operating points of the KT88's.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I can build around the GZ34 as it has a low voltage drop. You could then use other rectifiers with higher voltage drop to alter the operating points of the KT88's.



Sounds good to me. That means the likes of my Cossor 53ku, GEC U52, Mullard GZ37, GZ34, WE 422A (if I can find it lol) are all candidates. Including 5U4g, 274b, etc.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> By the way, your will be a SET, I am not sure if Tomas builds classic OTL.



Tomas is an audio amp engineer. He can build any amp he puts his mind to.   OTL might be too easy for him.  Question is whether he wants to.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I can build around the GZ34 as it has a low voltage drop. You could then use other rectifiers with higher voltage drop to alter the operating points of the KT88's.



Ok you'll have to make a list of rectifiers I can use if you build around the GZ34 because I'm rectifier noob.    Just give me a list of rectifiers I can use and I will buy them all... ok not all maybe just 7


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> ok not all maybe just 7


Such a noob...


----------



## UntilThen (Feb 12, 2021)

Zachik said:


> Such a noob...



Yeah I know and you have 8... I'm so jealous !

Btw Tomas, today I tried Telefunken EL12 spez in a proper amp for the first time in my life. It was a 'wow' moment. I can't see how this tube is functioning properly in Elise when I was trying it there. I can see this tube being 'explosive' in Odyssey and it's not even burn in yet. These adapters were ordered from China (mrsxuling) and arrived today in less than 2 weeks.

This is my Gemini twins of TU-8500 (tube preamp / phono stage) + TU-8200 (headphone and speakers amp).

@DecentLevi  for your eyes.

Now I'm tempted to go 4 x EL34 so I can roll 4 x EL12 spez too or 4 x KT88.


----------



## UntilThen

Nah not going quad power tubes. Just a pair will do and will use Yamamoto's sockets or equivalent.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm just going to complicate things a bit here. I'll persuade Tomas to incorporate these multi branded EL11 as drivers in addition to 12au7, in Odyssey. I just need to hear EL11 as drivers and EL12 spez as power tubes again.


----------



## UntilThen

Time marches on so while waiting for Odyssey to be built in June, I must sample more amps, tube or solid states. So the next amp to come into my fold is the 'mint condition' Auralic Taurus Mk2 -  in a week's time.


----------



## Slim1970

UntilThen said:


> Time marches on so while waiting for Odyssey to be built in June, I must sample more amps, tube or solid states. So the next amp to come into my fold is the 'mint condition' Auralic Taurus Mk2 -  in a week's time.


This sounds like my journey. I've tired a multitude of amps and settled on the three I have now. Now I'm interested in getting one more DAC. Possibly an R2R type DAC.


----------



## UntilThen

Slim1970 said:


> This sounds like my journey. I've tired a multitude of amps and settled on the three I have now. Now I'm interested in getting one more DAC. Possibly an R2R type DAC.



Nothing like trying out amps for yourself. You have to decide for yourself. Not everyone's the same. Where you and I differ is that I much prefer tube amps and you prefer solid state. 

For me I prefer Oblivion, Elekit TU-8200, Wa22 and LF339i over v280. I don't expect Taurus to do any better. Now I have doubts about completing the transaction. Oh well it's a budget offer. If I didn't like the Taurus I'll sell it at no lost because too many people wants it at that price, which is half the price of new and it's still mint.

At least I would have satisfy myself that I have tried Auralic Taurus Mk2.


----------



## UntilThen

Please someone stop me from getting Taurus. Put the money in this pair of GEC KT88 instead - for Odyssey ! Yes that's how much the pair of GEC KT88 cost - the price of this Taurus.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Please someone stop me from getting Taurus. Put the money in this pair of GEC KT88 instead - for Odyssey ! Yes that's how much the pair of GEC KT88 cost - the price of this Taurus.


If you believe that the KT88s will be “the” or “one of the” tubes for your Odyssey, get them. They will not get any less expensive and will probably be harder to find. The Auralic may be fun but fleeting...


----------



## hpamdr

Slim1970 said:


> Possibly an R2R type DAC


If you want a nice r2r DAC not too warm and not as sterile as sabre. You can give a look on Soekris 2541 for a first shot. For twice or more  the price you can jump to HaloAudio Spring II stage 2 or katsume or May DAC. Then give a look to the beasts MSB , AudioNote, if you want to add tubes TotalDAC and Lampizator Pacific.

I would avoid Audio-GD, Denafrips Aries,... and all the clones


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Please someone stop me from getting Taurus. Put the money in this pair of GEC KT88 instead - for Odyssey ! Yes that's how much the pair of GEC KT88 cost - the price of this Taurus.


I have a pair of 1960's GEC KT88 and am lusting for a backup, they are that good. If you don't mind the question where are you sourcing these in good condition? Inquiring minds want to know, but if you need to keep it proprietary I'll (try to) understand.  

I am sure the KT88 will sound awesome in your Odyssey amp.!  Looking forward to your impressions in this thread.


----------



## Slim1970

UntilThen said:


> Nothing like trying out amps for yourself. You have to decide for yourself. Not everyone's the same. Where you and I differ is that I much prefer tube amps and you prefer solid state.
> 
> For me I prefer Oblivion, Elekit TU-8200, Wa22 and LF339i over v280. I don't expect Taurus to do any better. Now I have doubts about completing the transaction. Oh well it's a budget offer. If I didn't like the Taurus I'll sell it at no lost because too many people wants it at that price, which is half the price of new and it's still mint.
> 
> At least I would have satisfy myself that I have tried Auralic Taurus Mk2.


That's it exactly. I have owned some tube amps, but I soon determined I prefer the sound of solid state amps. Plus, the cost of trying and buying tubes can get costly.


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> If you believe that the KT88s will be “the” or “one of the” tubes for your Odyssey, get them. They will not get any less expensive and will probably be harder to find. The Auralic may be fun but fleeting...



Good advice but I'll still buy the Taurus and use it for a month (so I can satisfy myself as to which is better - Taurus vs v280 ; that's the gauntlet @thecrow threw at my feet) then sell it to buy the GEC KT88. That tube isn't going anywhere but to me.


----------



## OctavianH

You guys reminded me I have a Beyerdynamic A2 somewhere in a box and never use it. Maybe I should open the box!


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> I have a pair of 1960's GEC KT88 and am lusting for a backup, they are that good. If you don't mind the question where are you sourcing these in good condition? Inquiring minds want to know, but if you need to keep it proprietary I'll (try to) understand.



Sorry I can't disclose my source because there is a very good reason....

My supplier is a private consumer. I.e all these tubes he has are for his own consumption. God knows why he needs so many. He has a godlike Leek amp which he use the GEC KT88s. He has only 8 brand new NOS tubes left (that's 4 pairs) and he wants to keep it for himself but I persuaded him to part with one pair to me. Like the Don in the mafia story, I made him an offer he cannot refuse.   So yeah I get only one miserable but brand new, never use, in original GEC box.

That's the reason ok?


----------



## UntilThen

Slim1970 said:


> That's it exactly. I have owned some tube amps, but I soon determined I prefer the sound of solid state amps. Plus, the cost of trying and buying tubes can get costly.



Hmmm you're one of the rare ones that did not succumb to tube amps having been exposed to it. It's like vinyl vs digital. For vinyl lovers, once you touch it, you ain't looking back. There's something about tubes and vinyl that makes them sound human.


----------



## UntilThen

There's a new development which will interest me and particularly @DecentLevi or anyone else who loves EL11.

2 x EL11 will be use as drivers in Odyssey. They will be on each side of a single 6sn7 double triode. 12au7 via adapter will also be used in the 6SN7 slot.

The only question is whether I can still use 6SL7 in the 6SN7 slot by some magical means. Now I'm making too many demands on Tomas.

Not sure where that leave 6J5... hahaha. I can get good supplies of that too.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Sorry I can't disclose my source because there is a very good reason....
> 
> My supplier is a private consumer. I.e all these tubes he has are for his own consumption. God knows why he needs so many. He has a godlike Leek amp which he use the GEC KT88s. He has only 8 brand new NOS tubes left (that's 4 pairs) and he wants to keep it for himself but I persuaded him to part with one pair to me. Like the Don in the mafia story, I made him an offer he cannot refuse.   So yeah I get only one miserable but brand new, never use, in original GEC box.
> 
> That's the reason ok?


I do understand. I hope you don't miss the organ you donated to him.


----------



## OctavianH

I am really interested in KT66 and KT88 used in amplifiers built for them. So if anyone has something to say, do it.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> I do understand. I hope you don't miss the organ you donated to him.



Actually he offered his kidneys as a bonus for the amount I paid but what would I need used kidneys for? I need NOS kidneys so I turn it down.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I am really interested in KT66 and KT88 used in amplifiers built for them. So if anyone has something to say, do it.



Ok I'll chime in. I know of 2 amps that use KT88 and one amp that use both.

Elekit TU-8200 uses both KT66 and KT88 and many other tubes. Odyssey will as well that's why I'm so excited. Believe me, TU-8200 is so good ...so good...so goood.. ok you get the idea?

The other amp is Mogwai Se which also use those tubes and 6SL7 as drivers. However I'm not interested in a Mogwai. I'm interested in Odyssey because I get to specify what I want and hopefully it makes sense and if it doesn't Tomas will politely tell me. A friend had the Mogwai Se and he worships it more than Diana the goddess. 

However, whatever, Odyssey is going to be a very special amp that will be better tham Mogwai and Auris Nirvana. That's my mission statement. It will use:-

2 x EL11 as strapped single triodes and a single double triodes 6SN7 / ECC32 / ECC33 / B65 (also 12au7 can slot into the 6sn7 socket via an adapter)

Power tubes are:- KT88, KT77, KT90, KT66, 6L6GC, 6550, EL34, EL12 spez, 807, etc.... KT120, KT150.

Octavian, why don't you like EL34, EL12 spez and KT77? In the Elekit TU8200, these tubes are equal or better than the KT88 to my ears. YMMV.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Octavian, why don't you like EL34, EL12 spez and KT77? In the Elekit TU8200, these tubes are equal or better than the KT88 to my ears. YMMV.



I actually like them. But it is a matter of audio chain and personal preference. As you all know I have an Elise amplifier which has a warm tone one. I love the sound of Chord DACs and had in the past 2Qute, Qutest and now I own the TT2 which is incredible. TT2 is warmer than Qutest, somehow close to 2Qute as signature, even if it is at a different level than it. I have a pair of original Genalex KT77 which sound very good to me, but are, at least in Elise, too relaxed and warm for my taste. In Elise for me the clear glass GEC KT66 is the sweet spot and my endgame. I never tried EL12 or EL12 spez even if I know that DecentLevi loves them and I follow his posts on several threads because I somehow like his taste. The same is for you and EL11. I will wait for Eternity and try again KT66/77/88 and then I will decide to go. I really hope to make GEC KT66/GEC 6J5 as my endgame but I might get surprised by Tomas and his work.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I never tried EL12 or EL12 spez even if I know that DecentLevi loves them



You may not have gone back far enough in the Elise thread to know. I started off the craze on the EL12 spez in Elise thread after Hypnos1 'discovered' EL11 and that was because I stumbled upon EL3N red skirt. So EL3N led to EL11 then led to EL12 then EL12 spez. @DecentLevi came much later and adopted it. 

I love EL12 spez a lot and was going to have an amp built called 'Berlin' because it will use Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez. That was shelved many times. So the fact that now EL11 and EL12 spez are going to be one of the main players in Odyssey is because I've a big box full of those tubes NOS and brand new. Been buying them 3 years ago or more. I've more than enough now to serve 3 Odyssey(s).


----------



## OctavianH

Then the credits should go to you. I read all the threads but there is a lot of information and somehow I forget some of the things I read. Your Odyssey with EL11 sockets is very interesting and I follow your journet closely. I bet it would be a spectacular one.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Then the credits should go to you. I read all the threads but there is a lot of information and somehow I forget some of the things I read. Your Odyssey with EL11 sockets is very interesting and I follow your journet closely. I bet it would be a spectacular one.



I don't care about credits. I deal in cash LOL. Jokes aside, it's not my aim to get credits or @hypnos1 for the matter. Colin deserves all the credits and we were and still are the best of mates. However the history of how things developed in Elise thread must be known. @connieflyer came along later but he's full on now - probably the last of those still actively using those tubes in Euforia. I had both Elise and Euforia and was at one time on personal speaking terms with Lukasz the main operator in Feliks Audio. Henricks his dad is the designer and the brains behind it.

Odyssey will not be like this amp (the picture below) in any shape or form but I post it here to give an idea of how those tubes will appear. So in place of those red EL3N tubes, would be 2 x EL11 in front, between each EL11 will be the 6SN7 socket. Behind the 6sn7 socket will be the GZ34 rectifier and variants. To the side of the GZ34 will be the KT88 sockets for use with all the power tubes mentioned above, including EL12 spez using adapters. Also Odyssey will most likely be having a wooden walnut chassis with steel top plate.


----------



## OctavianH

I have 8 x Philips EL3N like those and I hope I will use them until I die. I never liked them in Elise because the signature was too warm for my taste. However I have a problem with the socket of EL3N and EL11 and decided to keep everything to octal. I had broken adapters and problems and I do not really think about anything besides octal lately. I try to force myself of making C3g -> 6J5 adapters for Eternity even if I love C3g.


----------



## UntilThen

That’s the reason I keep using adapters to a minimum. I want Odyssey to have a clean like an iMac 🤪

EL11 will slot right in without adapters. So will 6sn7 but I make an exception for 12au7 with adapter on the 6sn7 socket because I have very good 12au7 and I will be buying more Amperex and Tung Sol 12au7 but instead of a pair, I only need one now. How good is that. I only need to buy one ECC32, 33, B65 - lol these tubes will drain the world’s economy.


----------



## UntilThen

Now Tomas will be wondering what the hell UntilThen are you designing your own amp... 😂

however we are talking and talking and talking and talking behind the scene. The time he make for me and the speed he responds to me tells me he’s very very keen on this amp. I may not be about to get Odyssey when he finished it. He may want it for himself !!!


----------



## Slim1970

UntilThen said:


> Hmmm you're one of the rare ones that did not succumb to tube amps having been exposed to it. It's like vinyl vs digital. For vinyl lovers, once you touch it, you ain't looking back. There's something about tubes and vinyl that makes them sound human.


I definitely love the sound of analog. Mixed with the warm, romantic sound of tubes it’s even more seductive. I do want at least one tube amp in my collection. I just don't want the hassle of tube rolling. It's part of the reason why I'm considering the Silver Citadel. The sound seems right up my alley and rolling tubes on it doesn't seem to matter.


----------



## hpamdr

OctavianH said:


> You guys reminded me I have a Beyerdynamic A2 somewhere in a box and never use it. Maybe I should open the box!


  You shoul at least try it with T1.2. Even it you do not power it on, you can use the stand option to not scratch anymore your Verité


----------



## OctavianH

hpamdr said:


> You shoul at least try it with T1.2. Even it you do not power it on, you can use the stand option to not scratch anymore your Verité



I tried it in the past and preferred Elise. I also tried it compared with TT2 integrated amplifier and preferred the Elise. A2 is incredible good, but not what I look for. TT2 is also incredible good, but the same. I am a tube guy.


----------



## hpamdr (Feb 13, 2021)

[edit] Moved to tube rolling thread...


----------



## hpamdr

OctavianH said:


> I am a tube guy.


 The tube sound in addictive even if does not measure well and is not the most "transparent" you get this special touch that seems more musical. This is the subjective part of tube musicality vs full proof of measured SS amp. 
However, I still have a Cayin iHA-6 I tradded on HF. It have many pairing features and I  use it as a clean reference for comparison.


----------



## LoryWiv (Feb 14, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I don't care about credits. I deal in cash LOL. Jokes aside, it's not my aim to get credits or @hypnos1 for the matter. Colin deserves all the credits and we were and still are the best of mates. However the history of how things developed in Elise thread must be known. @connieflyer came along later but he's full on now - probably the last of those still actively using those tubes in Euforia. I had both Elise and Euforia and was at one time on personal speaking terms with Lukasz the main operator in Feliks Audio. Henricks his dad is the designer and the brains behind it.
> 
> Odyssey will not be like this amp (the picture below) in any shape or form but I post it here to give an idea of how those tubes will appear. So in place of those red EL3N tubes, would be 2 x EL11 in front, between each EL11 will be the 6SN7 socket. Behind the 6sn7 socket will be the GZ34 rectifier and variants. To the side of the GZ34 will be the KT88 sockets for use with all the power tubes mentioned above, including EL12 spez using adapters. Also Odyssey will most likely be having a wooden walnut chassis with steel top plate.


Ok, now I'm considering parting with a Kidney for an Odyssey. Can't wait till it all comes together for you @UntilThen, and to hear your glowing (pun intended) impresions.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Ok, now I'm considering parting with a Kidney for an Odyssey. Can't wait till it all comes together for you @UntilThen, and to hear your glowing (pun intended) impresions.



You can have Odyssey cheap in 5 years time. By then I have a live band to play for me.


----------



## connieflyer

Hello Matt, have not used El3N in a couple of years. Used a six pack then. Great tube, sold them with Elise. Used theEforia as well, sold it, after getting AE, will probably (?) be the last tube amp. Using  six of the GU 50's now.  Really like it.  This is the last time I used El3N's on the Elise


----------



## UntilThen

Hello Don, it's good to see you again.  The sextet EL3N is a memory from long ago. I remember doing that from ages ago.  

GU 50 would an interesting SE custom tube amp. That monster is intended for a 50 watts amplifier. The GU 50 is a Russian made copy of the German Telefunken LS 50 power pentode tube. What I have in Odyssey will be a last fling with a tube amp .... I hope. At least I'll get to sample EL11 and EL12 spez and variants in a custom tube amp.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> AE, will probably (?) be the last tube amp.



You sure?  I will tempt you with Odyssey when it's completed. Deciding on the chassis is a major design decision. I care about visual appeal as much as the sound. Next week, I'll move to a new place where I have a room just for my sound system. It's a decision on what big desk I'll get along with the 3 glass racks. Then I need a proper power conditioner.


----------



## DecentLevi

UntilThen said:


> I love Oblivion but now I am determined that I will have you build me another tube amp that is the classic tube amp tone (SET) that will respond well to tube changes. Specifically I want to use KT88, KT77, KT66, EL34, 6L6GC, 6550 with drivers such as 12AT7 / 12AU7 (unless you think 12AX7 is necessary or other drivers as you advise - maybe 6SL7 or 12SL7 ? the latter I have a pair of NOS TS bgrp which I LOVE) and preferably with auto bias but if I have to manually adjust bias, it must be very easy like flicking a switch. I want no hassles but just to enjoy music with the tube amp. Doable? I'll be talking to you privately. So rather than thinking about a Mogwai Se or another custom amp, I'm looking to you as my amp designer and builder because I have every confidence that if you could produce Oblivion to sound so good, you would know how to do this other amp I have in mind and I want Infinity kind of looks. I want 8w or 10w into 8ohms. That should drive my speakers beautifully and also my future Susvara and He6se. I'm excited already !
> 
> 
> 
> Not a whipser, hum, hiss or RF interference from my top cap tubes in Oblivion. I hold my iPhone next to it and no issues at all - except it say "Hello".


Well color me surprised, LOL - finally you're on board with the 12AV7 type tubes. I've been praising them for years, and I guess you now discovered them from use on the ELekit amp right? For me they managed to sound lush, vibrant, hard hitting, extended, transparent and fairly clean. The also 12v Tunsgram E80CC were comparable too in different ways. I used mine as a 6v with an adapter that wires the heaters in parallel so yours may sound even better if wired as a native 12 tube. But nothing really compares to the SWGP Reflektor holy grail 6N23P for miniature tubes, which I also have.

Hey also what's going on with your headphones? I remember your longstanding praise of the ZMF Verite so clearly I shall never forget and you even sold me on getting a pair someday - though not sure to go for open or closed... now I check your profile and it says they're SOLD, and you're into the Hifiman 'HEK' SE instead, wow! And I do recall my first time hearing them back in around 2017 and to me the bass was not tight, then IMO falling short of a couple others that came later. The ones I tried were also HEK SE also but one of the first released, so am I right in assuming some major revisions have happened since then?


----------



## UntilThen (Feb 17, 2021)

DecentLevi said:


> Well color me surprised, LOL - finally you're on board with the 12AV7 type tubes. I've been praising them for years, and I guess you now discovered them from use on the ELekit amp right? For me they managed to sound lush, vibrant, hard hitting, extended, transparent and fairly clean. The also 12v Tunsgram E80CC were comparable too in different ways. I used mine as a 6v with an adapter that wires the heaters in parallel so yours may sound even better if wired as a native 12 tube. But nothing really compares to the SWGP Reflektor holy grail 6N23P for miniature tubes, which I also have.
> 
> Hey also what's going on with your headphones? I remember your longstanding praise of the ZMF Verite so clearly I shall never forget and you even sold me on getting a pair someday - though not sure to go for open or closed... now I check your profile and it says they're SOLD, and you're into the Hifiman 'HEK' SE instead, wow! And I do recall my first time hearing them back in around 2017 and to me the bass was not tight, then IMO falling short of a couple others that came later. The ones I tried were also HEK SE also but one of the first released, so am I right in assuming some major revisions have happened since then?



Nice to hear from you Levi. We go back quite a long way and while others have drop out, it's good to see you still very much in Head-Fi. Congrats again on Infinity but I am getting Tomas to build me an old school SET tube amp that has similar configuration to Mogwai Se but with more features and more tubes to be use. My primary objective is great sound, a smart look, easy to use and good custom parts.

Odyssey will use for drivers:
EL11 x 2 (as strapped triodes)
6SL7 x 1 (as double triodes) - in this same socket, 6SN7 can also be use. 12au7, 12at7 and 12ax7 can also be use via adapters.

For power tubes:
KT88, KT77, KT66, KT120, KT150, EL34, EL12 spez via adapters, 6L6GC, 6550, 5881, 807 via adapters.  It's a pair of any of those.

Tube rectifiers:
This amp is bias on GZ34 which has a very low voltage drop. Any other rectifiers with a higher voltage drop can be use... that includes GEC U52, Cossor 53ku, GZ37, etc.

There is one power transformer and 2 x output transformers. A choke is also use. The transformers will have winding taps of 8 and 50 ohms. That should cover speakers and headphones. Additionally depending on price, will add another 2 windings - 100 and 300 ohms. That should cover most headphone range and I'm not using iems on this amp that is for sure. The 3 transformers are mounted to the back of the top chassis plate and they will be naked because naked is good.  The choke is installed inside the chassis and will not be seen. In front of the centre power transformer is the GZ34 socket. Flanking the rectifier are the KT88 sockets. In front of the GZ34 socket is the 6SL7 socket. Flanking the 6SL7 socket are the two EL11 sockets. It will be symmetrical in appearance.

The front of the chassis will be similar to Citadel. The back as well. I'm undecided whether to have preamp out but I'll be having speakers out that accepts banana plugs.

Tomas told me that power wise to expect 10w in triode mode and a few more watts in utlralinear mode. Not sure about a gain switch .... I'll check with Tomas. There will be an output impedance switch. Lastly it's auto bias which is what I want. I don't want to do manual bias adjustment. Changing tubes is enough. 

Regarding your question on 12a*7 tubes, I love the tone of 12au7 on Elekit TU-8200. I could not use 12at7 and 12ax7 on Elekit amp but I can use 12at7 on my Elekit TU-8500 preamp and phono stage. This Elekit combination of TU-8500 and TU-8200 produce an amazing sound. I could have stop with this amp and be totally satisfied but I need to use my EL11s and also the ability to use 6SL7 and 6SN7 for more body and a fuller tone. The drivers in Odyssey are meant to be use exclusively but they can be run together. Tomas told me, 'Why would you want to use EL11 + 6SL7 together. It will add more distortions.' So highly unlikely I'll run them together because I'm a purist.

I had love ZMF Verite LTD Open in Pheasant wood for a year. After that time I started to gravitate back to LCD-3f and when I heard the LCD4 at the shop, I told myself one day the LCD-3f will be replaced by LCD4. I have always been curious about HiFiMan He1000se. There are many whose ears I trust and have similar preferences as me, told me they love it. So when the opportunity came to pick up a pair, I did. When I first listen to it at home, I was blown away. Easily my most love headphone now. Treble is very clear and extended. Midrange has just the right projection and bass though not as impactful as the LCD-3f, does magic of it's own. I can love classic rock, blues, jazz and classical with this wonderkid. He1000se with the Elekit is amazing but with Oblivion, it's stunning. A jaw dropping moment. You reading all this @LoryWiv ? 

So I await to hear He1000se with Odyssey. I also have plans for LCD4 ... Susvara is a wish and I hope I'll get that before this UntilThen becomes TheEnd. After the end, there could be an Abyss 1266 phi TC but that depends on whether my head wants to wear that headphone.

So Odyssey will commence build sometime in June / July 2021 unless some acts of God occurs. Who knows....

Sorry about the War and Peace long story ...


----------



## UntilThen (Feb 17, 2021)

I did not expect Telefunken EL12 spez to sound so good. It is the best sounding tube amongst my present NOS GEC KT66 and Miniwatt 6CA7 / EL34 in Elekit TU-8200. I'm excited and can't wait to hear EL11 and EL12 spez combination in Odyssey.

I'll be sending Tomas pairs of Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez with adapters and I like to see what he personally thinks of the tone. I'll bet a dollar that he will love it. 

I'll also be sending Genalex Gold Lion KT88, KT77 to him to test out with the new amp.... along with pairs of 12au7, 12at7, 12ax7. I'll keep my NOS tubes back home.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I did not expect Telefunken EL12 spez to sound so good. It is the best sounding tube amongst my present NOS GEC KT66 and Miniwatt 6CA7 / EL34 in Elekit TU-8200. I'm excited and can't wait to hear EL11 and EL12 spez combination in Odyssey.
> 
> I'll be sending Tomas pairs of Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez with adapters and I like to see what he personally thinks of the tone. I'll bet a dollar that he will love it.


I'll get to hear that combination once I finish Levi's Infinity! I have his tubes at home. Looking forward to hearing them when you guys praise then so much!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I'll get to hear that combination once I finish Levi's Infinity! I have his tubes at home. Looking forward to hearing them when you guys praise then so much!



Yes love to hear your opinion as you've have heard most other tubes. 

The EL12 spez dates back to wonder years of German technology on the Klangfilm amplifiers. It's not just us praising this tube but have a look at this. It's praise as ....

_THE EL12 & F2a11 IS ONE OF THE BEST TUBE in the world
made by SIEMENS in the golden tube ages (10.000 hours lifetime), and was used in a lot of amps

EL12 spez push pull balanced amplifier _
https://www.tubeguru.eu/pushpull-amplifiers/f2a-push-pull-2x40-watts/index.html


----------



## Zachik

SonicTrance said:


> I'll get to hear that combination once I finish Levi's Infinity!


@DecentLevi - are you going to have the Infinity complement Glenn's build (was it "Darwin"?), or is it going to replace it?


----------



## LoryWiv (Feb 17, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I had love ZMF Verite LTD Open in Pheasant wood for a year. After that time I started to gravitate back to LCD-3f and when I heard the LCD4 at the shop, I told myself one day the LCD-3f will be replaced by LCD4. I have always been curious about HiFiMan He1000se. There are many whose ears I trust and have similar preferences as me, told me they love it. So when the opportunity came to pick up a pair, I did. When I first listen to it at home, I was blown away. Easily my most love headphone now. Treble is very clear and extended. Midrange has just the right projection and bass though not as impactful as the LCD-3f, does magic of it's own. I can love classic rock, blues, jazz and classical with this wonderkid. He1000se with the Elekit is amazing but with Oblivion, it's stunning. A jaw dropping moment. You reading all this @LoryWiv ?


Of course I am, @UntilThen. I am unable to resist your prose and yes, I confess my fascination (jealousy) with your fast paced journey to audio nirvana.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Of course I am, @UntilThen. I am unable to resist your prose and yes, I confess my fascination (jealousy) with your fast paced journey to audio nirvana.



Thanks Lory but can I borrow your pair of GEC KT88 because I haven’t got mine yet. Kenwood KA 3300D and Auralic Taurus Mk2 arriving tomorrow. I have so many amps now that I can open a shop to sell them. I’ll be very busy this weekend trying my friend’s Susvara and Utopia on my amps. While I gaze at the horizon looking for Odyssey.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Thanks Lory but can I borrow your pair of GEC KT88 because I haven’t got mine yet. Kenwood KA 3300D and Auralic Taurus Mk2 arriving tomorrow. I have so many amps now that I can open a shop to sell them. I’ll be very busy this weekend trying my friend’s Susvara and Utopia on my amps. While I gaze at the horizon looking for Odyssey.


I think I'm now officially a GEC fanboy, with GEC 6080, KT88, 6V6 in the stable and a pair of KT66 incoming. There is some magic with these old bits of British glass, beautiful timbre and tone, musical and euphonic without sacrificing detail. I find I can enjoy them for relaxed listening or critical "listen deep into the music" sessions, especially the KT88. Your wait will be worth it my friend, and the Odyssey awaits you as well.


----------



## connieflyer

I really have enjoyed the El11 and EL12 Spez in the Feliks amps.  They always sounded great. still swap them in from time to time.


----------



## UntilThen

I’m no fanboy of any tube brands. They work at my command or they will be flogged. However I’m a sucker for rectifiers so I will turn my attention to it next.

Waiting is not a problem for me. I take the first few weeks going through the amp parameters and configuration with Tomas. Mostly as a layman I’d ask if adding a light bulb would be a good idea and he would then suggest using EL11 instead or 6sl7... you get the idea.

Tomas has been incredible with my countless questions and he patiently answers them despite answering countless emails from others. I’m filled with gratitude and it makes my waiting for the amp part of this satisfying journey.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I really have enjoyed the El11 and EL12 Spez in the Feliks amps.  They always sounded great. still swap them in from time to time.


In Elekit EL12 spez starts to show its colours. I have no doubt a properly configured amp will drive el11 and EL12 spez to how it can really perform.


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey's journey is sailing along. I have receive preliminary quote for it and do not ask me for it because you have to talk to Tomas about that. 

Still waiting on Yamamoto's sockets quote. I'm quite adamant with going with those sockets. Having Studio Six which has similar sockets as Yamamoto's sockets, I would have no other sockets if I am going for a quality custom amp. Tube insertion and extraction is such a joy with these sockets.

Sowter's transformers quote came back with winding of 8, 12, 72 and 128. That should cover most base and it will work very well with high impedance headphones just as well. The price is of course just as exciting as Sowter's quality but it's not much more Lundahl's. I expected it and accept it and look forward to the finished amp.

It's been an exhilarating ride this conceptual design phase with Tomas. Options went back and forth faster than my head can spin. With each detail confirmation, I get more and more excited.  Tomas's enthusiasm in this project is just as encouraging.

Oblivion and Odyssey will be great contrast in tone and sonic presentation. I've no doubt it will exist side by side. I've decided to go with the silver chassis used in Citadel for Odyssey because it will blend in very well with the grey colour of the Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez tubes. Also the silver / grey Sowter's transformers exposed naked in the silver chassis will be just perfect. 

So it's sit back and wait for Odyssey to appear within sight while I burn my NOS tubes in the Elekit combo of TU-8500 and TU-8200. Occasionally I would power on Oblivion and wonder why I didn't use it more because the sound is just sterling.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey's journey is sailing along. I have receive preliminary quote for it and do not ask me for it because you have to talk to Tomas about that.



To avoid an imminent heart attack I will never think about the answer to that question. LOL

Are you going with the stock volume knob or add a stepped attenuator?


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Are you going with the stock volume knob or add a stepped attenuator?



Whatever is used in Oblivion is fine. I don't think it's necessary to bump up the cost any further unless it can affect SQ significantly. Yes you don't want to have a heart attack by asking about the cost which is really only a few bowls of noodles.   

Odyssey options are:-
Sowter transformers
Speaker out
XLR inputs (in addition to RCA in)
4-pin XLR out (in addition to 1/4 inch out)
Impedance switch
Mundorf coupling caps
Yamamoto sockets

Lastly I hope Tomas will have the word Odyssey engraved on the badge that is affix to the front of the amp. I was going to have the word UntilThen there but that would be taboo. 

Oh the feet will be chunky ones like those used in Infinity. Would you believe it - Odyssey will weigh close to 20 kgs. Must be those bloody pure silver Sowter transformers. 

The bulk of the cost is in the custom Sowter transformers. I've never heard of Sowter transformer before talking to Tomas about Odyssey but now that I know, I won't forget it.  

However the cost does not stop there because there are more NOS tubes that I'll be getting. All in all an exhilarating ride for sure. After that I'll just settle back and listen to music.


----------



## hpamdr

OctavianH said:


> To avoid an imminent heart attack I will never think about the answer to that question. LOL
> 
> Are you going with the stock volume knob or add a stepped attenuator?


He can keep stock High performance Alp potentiometer with a silver platted or massive alluminium knob


----------



## UntilThen

I found some customers' photos of Sowter transformers in use and they are just gorgeous.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Whatever is used in Oblivion is fine. I don't think it's necessary to bump up the cost any further unless it can affect SQ significantly. Yes you don't want to have a heart attack by asking about the cost which is really only a few bowls of noodles.
> 
> ....
> Yamamoto sockets


About yamamoto socket, the only one i find in Europe are 65€ by item without shipping at JacMusic (DE) from Japan it is around 50$ without import taxes, shipping,....
Chinese style Eizz teflon cost much less and still have nice grip.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> About yamamoto socket, the only one i find in Europe are 65€ by item without shipping at JacMusic (DE) from Japan it is around 50$ without import taxes, shipping,....
> Chinese style Eizz teflon cost much less and still have nice grip.



I'm ready to sell off one of my amps for 6 Yamamoto's sockets. 2 x kt88, 1 x gz34, 2 x el11 and 1 x 6sl7.


----------



## OctavianH

hpamdr said:


> Chinese style Eizz teflon cost much less and still have nice grip.



I'll have those on my Eternity. I'm glad also others consider them nice.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I'll have those on my Eternity. I'm glad also others consider them nice.


I may have to go cheap with those sockets


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I may have to go cheap with those sockets


They're nice sockets for sure! Problem is to find EL11 sockets of the same quality? I've only seen Yamamoto. The ebay offerings all look terrible.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> They're nice sockets for sure! Problem is to find EL11 sockets of the same quality? I've only seen Yamamoto. The ebay offerings all look terrible.


Those ebay sockets for EL11 have crocodile teeth.   I can't have those seriously.


----------



## hpamdr (Feb 19, 2021)

SonicTrance said:


> They're nice sockets for sure! Problem is to find EL11 sockets of the same quality? I've only seen Yamamoto. The ebay offerings all look terrible.


@SonicTrance Tomas, you can ask Luciano if he can build on demand Y8A socket. He make yamamoto style socket with pfte and gold platted Tellurim pin. From Italia it will be probably easier to get than Chinsese/Japanese.. He used to make some discount for bartola valves or DHTRob forum users 
And if it is for June/July you will have plenty of time to order....


----------



## SonicTrance

hpamdr said:


> @SonicTrance Thomas, you can ask Luciano if he can build on demand Y8A socket. He make yamamoto style socket with pfte and gold platted Tellurim pin. From Italia it will be probably easier to get than Chinsese/Japanese.. He used to make some discount for bartola valves or DHTRob forum users
> And if it is for June/July you will have plenty of time to order....


Never heard of him. Sockets look nice! Thanks for the tip


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Lastly I hope Tomas will have the word Odyssey engraved on the badge that is affix to the front of the amp. *I was going to have the word UntilThen there but that would be taboo*.


Local sign shop and hot glue gun are your friends...


----------



## hpamdr

Zachik said:


> Local sign shop and hot glue gun are your friends...


Or with hollywood  letter shape :


----------



## UntilThen

That's a pretty nice cartoon. I like Homer.  

On the subject of rectifiers, Tomas told me to look for rectifiers with output current of around 200mA. The amp is bias on GZ34. So I got my old time friend @gibosi to help me here by identifying some of the better ones in this range.

He told me these rectifiers will be ok:-

GZ32, GZ33, GZ34 and GZ37. GEC U52, Cossor 53KU, 596 and any 5U4G. Including WE422A if I can find one. 

Things are starting to look more exciting now and it got even more exciting when I ask my tube supplier friend whether he has any 5U4G.  He said he has several, some from West Germany, some USA and a few Mullard. Now I ask him if he has any good GZ34 and I dread to hear the answer. He's gonna come back and say he has the ones with metal base.


----------



## UntilThen

UntilThen said:


> Now I ask him if he has any good GZ34 and I dread to hear the answer. He's gonna come back and say he has the ones with metal base.


The answer is back. He has some very good and expensive GZ34. Haven't ask him how expensive yet. Then I ask if he has any 596 rectifier and he said yes !!! I suspect he is no tube supplier friend but some big tube shop that is trying to sell me every goddamn vintage tubes under the sun. 

Anyway I will buy one of each of those rectifiers.... Odyssey will weigh more than 50 kgs with all these tubes on board.


----------



## UntilThen

Woo Audio actually sells the 596 rectifier with their own custom made white adapter with silver metal cap. It's will go nicely with Odyssey colours of silver and grey.  
https://wooaudio.com/tubes/usaf596-withadapter


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> Or with hollywood  letter shape :



Thanks Christope. I like this so much that I will try to find this poster to frame it and put it on my studio wall to have a very hearty chuckle.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Thanks Christophe. I like this so much that I will try to find this poster to frame it and put it on my studio wall to have a very hearty chuckle.


You are welcome Matt ! I saw the picture in a friend son book covering real "Iliad and Odyssey". I found, it so funny that i kept it in mind.
Anyway as I told you some post ago, you will also have to do a real Odyssey to find all the matching combination Driver / Otuput / Rectifier... So the name is really more on purpose than what you probably already considered. 

@gibosi is probably one of the most knowledgeable guy about old tubes around there...


----------



## UntilThen

I've got many good friends on Head-Fi and though we don't get in touch much, help is just a pm away. Yes it's a joy to talk to gibosi or Ken as I know him. 

Tomorrow I'm picking up a GZ34 from another friend. A very good price for a tube that tested new. This is the start of my buying rectifiers for Odyssey.

Mullard BVA GZ34 DD getter code LIJ 1961 Bruxelles Mazda, Made in Holland.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> Anyway as I told you some post ago, you will also have to do a real Odyssey to find all the matching combination Driver / Otuput / Rectifier...


I did not have to wait for Odyssey to find that out. Elekit combo use similar tube configurations. It is also my test bed for getting the hours into these NOS tubes in preparation for Odyssey. I'm already getting a glimpse into how each of the KT66, KT88, KT77, 6L6GC with Brimar 12au7 long sound like. Not forgetting EL12 spez. When Odyssey lands I would have already known how each of these tubes sound like. 

With rectifiers, I've first hand experience for a year on GEC U52, Cossor 53ku, Mullard GZ34 in the Studio Six and Woo Audio Wa22. The tones carry through Studio Six to Wa22.  I could actually suss out how each of those 3 rectifiers sound like even though other parameters are different.


----------



## DecentLevi

UntilThen said:


> There will be no 3rd rack that I can assure you. Some of my present amps will go. Eventually only Elekit combo, Oblivion and Odyssey will remain.... and v280 as my only solid state amp. I might change that to v281 because I like that shape better. I know it's been discontinued but that won't stop me from owning it.
> 
> I have let the cat out of the bag. The next amp will be call Odyssey, my logon in my local forum. This amp will be special because I even get to choose my own name for it and it will be on the badge. Odyssey will sit on the top of the 2nd rack because it can get hot with KT120, KT150. Yes those tubes are in addition to what I have stated before. Power will be aplenty to drive speakers and hard to drive headphones. He6se and Susvara will be too easy peasy for it. Oblivion will slot below because it's hardly hot and I don't need to change tubes in that amp.
> 
> ...


Interesting UT, sounds like a similar design as my Infinity amp but SET instead of the other special topology (forgot which?) used in mine. And yours will have auto bias. Would anyone know whether or not that is as accurate in biasing as optimally as with the manual bias option? If so, I wonder if there's any sonic difference between bias methods. And did you say you have yet to buy a power conditioner?


----------



## UntilThen (Feb 21, 2021)

DecentLevi said:


> Interesting UT, sounds like a similar design as my Infinity amp but SET instead of the other special topology (forgot which?) used in mine. And yours will have auto bias. Would anyone know whether or not that is as accurate in biasing as optimally as with the manual bias option? If so, I wonder if there's any sonic difference between bias methods. And did you say you have yet to buy a power conditioner?


Elekit TU8200 is also auto bias and I hear no abnormalities with it. The Mchanson KT150 amp I audition yesterday is manual bias which I find cumbersome. Auto bias is a convenience I rather have and I won’t go nuts on tube rolling.

I have no intention on spending big on  PS Audio power conditioning unit. I have a power filtration board similar to the Decmate and that is good enough for me. Besides power in my place is very stable and I have never any issues with.

Tomas told me Odyssey will sound different to Oblivion and I am aware of that and want it. I have 2 amps of contrast then.

Odyssey will be based on old school SET design of which the Mogwai Se is also. What that means is that tube changes will have significant tone changes. It will sound more tubey for want of a better word.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Tomas told me Odyssey will sound different to Oblivion and I am aware of that and want it. I have 2 amps of contrast then.



....If you have Tomas build you an additional h/p/a (!!), such that you would have a ‘triampvirate’, would it be Iliad?...


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Interesting UT, sounds like a similar design as my Infinity amp but SET instead of the other special topology



I would hardly call that similar. The only similarity there is some of the tubes used will be common. The amp design is different between Infinity and Odyssey. Not saying which is better but just pointing out that because the amp circuitry and design is completely different, they won't sound the same.


----------



## hpamdr

DecentLevi said:


> If so, I wonder if there's any sonic difference between bias methods. And did you say you have yet to buy a power conditioner?


@SonicTrance This is a question for Tomas, can you explain why do you prefer manual grid bias than auto-bias circuit for eternity/infinity....    
Is there any technical issue or sonic reason to not implement auto bias circuity.


----------



## SonicTrance

hpamdr said:


> @SonicTrance This is a question for Tomas, can you explain why do you prefer manual grid bias than auto-bias circuit for eternity/infinity....
> Is there any technical issue or sonic reason to not implement auto bias circuity.


Less capacitors in the signal path using grid bias. Even if I'd use cathode bias in Infinity/Eternity you couldn't just roll tubes without adjustment. The gyrator is still set at a specific current.


----------



## hpamdr

SonicTrance said:


> Less capacitors in the signal path using grid bias. Even if I'd use cathode bias in Infinity/Eternity you couldn't just roll tubes without adjustment. *The gyrator is still set at a specific current.*


@SonicTrans Loud and Clear ! As the gyrator is working for "small/precise" range of current. It is better for grid bias current/voltage to stay pinned using precise manual adjustment. 
For Odyssey, it is based on classic design (cathode follower ?) means that it is more suitable to get auto-bias circuit/module.
*Thanks for clarification !*


----------



## UntilThen

Even if auto bias is not optimal but near optimal, I’m willing to compromise by going with auto bias for convenience but fortunately for Odyssey my Rolls Royce will be automatic 
No wonder Elekit Tu8200 on auto bias works like a charm. Makes Lewis Hamilton want to drive his F1 racing car in auto !


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Even if auto bias is not optimal but near optimal, I’m willing to compromise by going with auto bias for convenience but fortunately for Odyssey my Rolls Royce will be automatic
> No wonder Elekit Tu8200 on auto bias works like a charm. Makes Lewis Hamilton want to drive his F1 racing car in auto !


UT, you choose to go for *R&R Phantom* we go for* Volvo XC40/XC60 Recharge.* 
If Hamilton want to have auto-gearbox, he will just run as the pace/safety car...


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> UT, you choose to go for *R&R Phantom* we go for* Volvo XC40/XC60 Recharge.*
> If Hamilton want to have auto-gearbox, he will just run as the pace/safety car...


lol they use to mock Volvo as a old man's car. 

Trust me. Hamilton drives an auto when he's not racing because he had enough of changing gears ! He probably have a driver to drive his cars on the weekends.


----------



## UntilThen

I have good news for the world. I am selling off my solid states because.... who need solid states. 

Feel the curvy bodies of tube amps and you'll say goodbye to solid states. 

So selling of Violectric v280 and Auralic Taurus Mk2.


----------



## SonicTrance

hpamdr said:


> For Odyssey, it is based on classic design (cathode follower ?) means that it is more suitable to get auto-bias circuit/module.
> *Thanks for clarification !*


Odyssey will have a triode gain stage which is RC coupled to the SET output stage. The output will have traditional series feed output which requires big and expensive transformers. It will be a contrast to my usual amps for sure! 



UntilThen said:


> Even if auto bias is not optimal but near optimal, I’m willing to compromise by going with auto bias for convenience


Cathode bias will be great for Odyssey! Don't worry about that! I'm really looking forward to build it!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Odyssey will have a triode gain stage which is RC coupled to the SET output stage. The output will have traditional series feed output which requires big and expensive transformers. It will be a contrast to my usual amps for sure!
> 
> 
> Cathode bias will be great for Odyssey! Don't worry about that! I'm really looking forward to build it!


Yes to both replies. When you’re as enthusiastic about building Odyssey, I’m just as enthusiastic as well. All along the way when we discussed Odyssey in private I was supported by your helpful replies. Never once did you take a day longer to reply. I just want to say thanks and I have all the confidence in you turning out a great amp in Odyssey.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Glad to see your Berlin (Odyssey) amplifier is finally being built, @UntilThen .  It has been a long time coming, I think you will be very happy with the Sowter iron


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Glad to see your Berlin (Odyssey) amplifier is finally being built, @UntilThen .  It has been a long time coming, I think you will be very happy with the Sowter iron



Thanks mate. It will be bigger and has more configurations than Berlin. Debated on using just EL11 and EL12 spez - that would look smart and no adapters required - built to suit purpose. However I've already started buying NOS GEC KT66, Philips Miniwatt 6CA7, GEC KT77, Tung Sol 6550 etc, so it make sense to have an amp to also use these wonderful power tubes.

Also besides EL11, I wanted to use 6SL7, 6SN7 and 12a*7. Also using tube rectification to keep it in line with the old school SET amp concept.

Sowter iron is expensive for the specific windings we're requesting but I reckon, let's do it. Finally Yamamoto sockets for a bit of indulgence and extra expense. Mundorf caps too. Not over the top but enough to make it all come together.

I'm very sure this will be my last amp.


----------



## UntilThen

I will lay out all my EL** tubes and take a photo. I have no idea how much I spend on them but they cost less than the other money sucking power tubes such as the GEC KT88.

In my opinion, the EL12 spez is right up there with the best of the other power tubes. EL12 spez are predecessors of the famed EL34. To my ears, the EL12 spez sounded a bit better than EL34 with better resolution, top end clarity and a hard hitting, controlled bass. Lovely midrange too.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Thanks mate. It will be bigger and has more configurations than Berlin. Debated on using just EL11 and EL12 spez - that would look smart and no adapters required - built to suit purpose. However I've already started buying NOS GEC KT66, Philips Miniwatt 6CA7, GEC KT77, Tung Sol 6550 etc, so it make sense to have an amp to also use these wonderful power tubes.
> 
> Also besides EL11, I wanted to use 6SL7, 6SN7 and 12a*7. Also using tube rectification to keep it in line with the old school SET amp concept.
> 
> ...



Wow that is quite the lineup!  Maybe use native sockets for you the tubes you feel will most likely end up as the "daily drivers".  Sowter is expensive, but in my opinion for a custom build, it is better to go custom transformers suited to the design.  Lundahl transformers are very good, but there are compromises made to allow the flexibly to wire for various applications that affect performance.  If you go custom Sowter, it will be tailor-made for the best sound.  Yamamoto are very expensive too, I have them in one of my amps, $50 each for five  but they are very nice, similar teflon knockoffs have been disappointing.  There is a Korean company called Oh's Audio that makes a similar teflon socket to Yamamoto, but they have very limited socket options (UX4, UX5, B4, B5, U6A, some other exotics), I hope some day they will expand to more common types, like octal particularly.  Focus for them seems to be on very early American and European DHTs.

Anyway, I will keep an eye out for your completed amp.


----------



## UntilThen

Well thanks Keenan, that certainly makes me feel better about spending on Sowter UK transformers. In the early stage, Tomas deliberated on what transformer maker to engage for Odyssey custom transformers, specifically one power transformer and 2 x output transformers. Finally he told me about Sowter so he obviously knows they are good stuff.  A Sowter choke will be too big to fit inside the chassis so a Hammond choke will be used instead. I told Tomas, whatever you say.  What do I know about choke. 

I don't know what will be my daily power tubes. I like them all and as most of them are 8 pins KT88 type, that's the sockets to be used. I like EL12 spez but it's the only odd man out so that will use an adapter. Also 807 tubes will use adapters. Not sure about GEC TT21. It's a gorgeous power tube but not sure if it can be used or whether I'll use it. As if I don't have enough of GECs !!!

Odyssey will be silver in looks with 2 nice meters.   Transformers will be mounted on top of chassis naked. I raise my eye brows when Tomas suggested that. Ok let's forget about modesty. Let them appear naked. Such nice transformers cannot be covered. I raise my eye brows again when Tomas says let's hope Odyssey won't weigh more than 20 kgs. I'm starting to think those Sowter transformers must be Sumo wrestlers to add so much weight !

The GEC TT21.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2030752...by_YicpaT2G-x3LiCwcc9m0GBW_e_OFEaAj_TEALw_wcB


----------



## L0rdGwyn

I agree show them off!  I have done the same, too nice to hide, Sowter is a household name.  All of the iron can make these amplifiers heavy.  My main amp has three transformers and three big chokes, I break my back every time I move it I think it's smart to leave the anode cap tubes for adapters, octal sockets should give you tons of options without adapters.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> My main amp has three transformers and three big chokes, I break my back every time I move it


That really make me laugh. My Sansui au alpha 907mr weighs 32 kgs. Finally I sold it off to be replace by the monster Kenwood KA 3300D. I told myself I'll never want to carry an amp weighing more than 30 kgs again.   

Why do you have 3 chokes? What are they for? Choke holds as in wrestling lol that's all I know.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Why do you have 3 chokes? What are they for? Choke holds as in wrestling lol that's all I know.



A choke is a electronic part used to pass direct current and low frequency alternating current, it is wire wound on a magnetic core similar to a transformer.  They can have several uses in a tube circuit, but are most commonly used as filters in the power supply to remove ripple from the rectifier, aiming for nice smooth DC for the tube plate supply without 120Hz buzz of power supply ripple.  My amp with the three chokes has a passive CLCLCRC power supply (this is a common way to write the order of the filter components of a linear power supply, C is capacitor, R resistor, L choke).  There is one choke for both channels, then a split with one more choke for each channel, so three total.

But chokes can be used in many ways, as tube plate loads, cathode follower loads, grid chokes, all kinds of stuff, but most often as filters in the power supply.


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks for the lesson on chokes. I'm a software guy so all this is new to me. There is more to the SET amp than just point to point wiring. Everything contributes to that lovely tube amp sound I guess. That is even before we consider the different types of 1950s, 1960s, 1970s vintage tubes. All very fascinating.


----------



## UntilThen

Tomas did a mock up of how the Sowter transformer will look on the silver chassis. Together with the grey colour of Telefunken EL**, I think it will look great. 

This is not a Sowter iron. Just some other silver iron for show and the wires will off course be hidden and I'm not having those 4 sockets in front.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Tomas did a mock up of how the Sowter transformer will look on the silver chassis. Together with the grey colour of Telefunken EL**, I think it will look great.
> 
> This is not a Sowter iron. Just some other silver iron for show and the wires will off course be hidden and I'm not having those 4 sockets in front.



That is a nice looking chassis.  What type of tube rectifier?


----------



## SonicTrance

L0rdGwyn said:


> That is a nice looking chassis. What type of tube rectifier?


It'll have a GZ34 for low voltage drop. Then he can play around with others like 5U4 for different, cooler, operating points =)


----------



## L0rdGwyn

SonicTrance said:


> It'll have a GZ34 for low voltage drop. Then he can play around with others like 5U4 for different, cooler, operating points =)



Very nice.  I believe UT has a metal base GZ34 on hand, the holy grail, should be fun to play around with different rectifiers / bias points.  Hopefully Sowter gets the transformers out fast!  I have a custom mains transformer on order form them, about 1.5 months so far, my last order took a little under three months.  I was told they were short staffed due to COVID last year, but have brought on more staff, so hopefully things will move more quickly down the road.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Very nice. I believe UT has a metal base GZ34 on hand, the holy grail


Not yet. My supplier has a pair of GZ34 metal base. Will try to persuade him to sell me one. I have a Mullard GZ34 blackburn factory though. Been offered a 596 JAN USAF, Mullard 5U4G, Philco 5U4G and a 5U4G from West Germany.

Already have Cossor 53ku, Mullard GZ32 x 2. Sold off GEC U52 - dang will have to buy that back. 

I'll just have to wait for Sowter iron. That timeframe is not a problem for me. I'm in the queue for Tomas's amp. I'm Mr June / July at this stage. Could be Mr August. Not a problem for me. Will take the intervening time to buy my tubes.... there's a whole bunch of tubes waiting to be bought... Brimar 12ax7, Mullard 12at7 gold pins, GEC KT77, Tung Sol 6550, GEC KT88 will be last. Oh my supplier has many good 6SL7, 6SN7s...... bring it on.


----------



## baronbeehive (Feb 27, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I raise my eye brows again when Tomas says let's hope Odyssey won't weigh more than 20 kgs. I'm starting to think those Sowter transformers must be Sumo wrestlers to add so much weight !
> 
> *Maybe you need to employ the services of a personal trainer before you start lifting it lol!*


----------



## baronbeehive

Any reason for the lack of modesty in the transformers, is it due to interference from the covers?


----------



## UntilThen (Feb 27, 2021)

Not covering it because Tomas and I agree that Sowter silver colour transformers are too beautiful to be covered up. Also in keeping with the old school SET amp design, going naked is the way to go. Skip back a few pages and you'll see some of the amps with naked Sowter transformers and they look gorgeous.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/post-16188254


----------



## hpamdr

I like a lot the way Jadis install the transformer (half way) on the chassis. 





This give a touch of luxury and also use less horizontal space on the cover...


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> I like a lot the way Jadis install the transformer (half way) on the chassis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a possibility too. I'll discuss with Tomas and he is a better visual designer than I am that is for sure.  

Both ways looks good too. In real life those Sowter irons looks much better.


----------



## UntilThen

A friend has just bought Ampandsound Bigger Ben and that's a heavyweight SET amp with upgraded parts. I told him I'm getting one of a kind Odyssey with equally good parts and of course a very unique amp that is specially custom made. Tomas will pull it off and I've every confidence in him. His enthusiasm is greater than mine in this project. A lot of things were suggested by him, including using EL11 as additional drivers to 6SL7 and also using tube rectification. Right from the start, he told me what power is possible with KT88, even more with KT150. Now he tells me that I can use EL156... this has monstrous power.


----------



## UntilThen

Tomas can I use this Russian monsters? 
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2pcs-GU...iseUnbiasedWeb&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Tomas can I use this Russian monsters?
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2pcs-GU50-OTK-GU-50-LS-50-RUSSIAN-POWER-PENTODE-TUBES-VINTAGE-VALVES-NOS/402698429195?_trkparms=aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20201210111314&meid=d21bea2f673a4accb017a30d4b890001&pid=101195&rk=2&rkt=12&mehot=pf&sd=402702542628&itm=402698429195&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplAMLv9PairwiseUnbiasedWeb&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851


_I will use those _

If you want you will have to heat at 12.6V .75A. Not like some double triodes which have 2x 6.3 filament with central point.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> _I will use those _
> 
> If you want you will have to heat at 12.6V .75A. Not like some double triodes which have 2x 6.3 filament with central point.


I'm not sure I want to use those. I think I have enough choices on power tubes as it is.

These are my precious EL11s. I must have at least 7 pairs in original boxes all NOS.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Right from the start, he told me what power is possible with KT88, even more with KT150. Now he tells me that I can use EL156... this has monstrous power.


Just to clarify regarding power. I will bias the amp optimally for the KT88. If you put in a pair of EL156 they'll actually run cooler than the KT88 with the same cathode resistor. So, the amp will have less output power running the EL156's than the KT88's.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Just to clarify regarding power. I will bias the amp optimally for the KT88. If you put in a pair of EL156 they'll actually run cooler than the KT88 with the same cathode resistor. So, the amp will have less output power running the EL156's than the KT88's.


Oh I seeeeeeeeee. However I think when you say less power on the EL156, you still mean a lot right? Enough to propel me to the moon. Besides it's cooler. Like driving a Rolls Royce at 100kph as opposed to 300kph.

Well I don't know if I'll buy a pair of NOS Telefunken EL156 for AUD $700. I have enough of those other NOS tubes. I think bias on the KT88 is good. I trust your judgement.

One more question on tubes. Can a GEC TT21 work in Odyssey? I believe that is a top cap version of the GEC KT88. $300 cheaper !


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Oh I seeeeeeeeee. However I think when you say less power on the EL156, you still mean a lot right? Enough to propel me to the moon. Besides it's cooler. Like driving a Rolls Royce at 100kph as opposed to 300kph.
> 
> Well I don't know if I'll buy a pair of NOS Telefunken EL156 for AUD $700. I have enough of those other NOS tubes. I think bias on the KT88 is good. I trust your judgement.
> 
> One more question on tubes. Can a GEC TT21 work in Odyssey? I believe that is a top cap version of the GEC KT88. $300 cheaper !


TT21 have same electrical characteristic than KT88.  you will need an anode cap. Some In FA Euforia thread reported as as good as GEC KT88 (Hypnos)


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> TT21 have same electrical characteristic than KT88.  you will need an anode cap. Some In FA Euforia thread reported as as good as GEC KT88 (Hypnos)


Yes yes YES. One guy in the Elekit thread said the same about GEC TT21. I don't mind the top anode cap. When done right, they can look good but ultimately it's the sound. 

I have not heard from @hypnos1 my friend for ages. Probably too happy with his Empyrean and TT2 with M Scalar. Colin, you're missing out on the euphonic sound of tubes. I've heard TT2 + MScalar alone with Susvara and I didn't quite like it. Add in Auris Nirvana to the mix and that's more my kind of tone. ymmv.

Interestingly it was Nirvana that lead me on this path to Odyssey but I needed an amp with more bite, more dynamics. Nirvana sound smooth, liquid and warm but with a lot of weight and body.


----------



## hpamdr

So you wanted the Nirvana on Steroid without going to 2A3 or 300B and finally mixed Berlin and Better Nirvana to get Odyssey. (What a journey)

If you want a clean solution for EL12Spez and TT21, you should ask Tomas a removable anode cap from the Amp. _This is an option I will have. _
Have a shielded cable or litz cable with nice cap plug and you keep it clean. (if you have EL12Spez topology in power this is imo a good option ).


----------



## UntilThen

Ultimately it was none of those amps that I’m trying to recreate. It was the Elekit TU 8200 that was driving my vision because I already have that amp and it sounded great. I just aim for that as a base but added Berlin and a lot more things. Being custom means I have a choice of chassis, transformers, capacitors, sockets and the whole works. My main criteria s of fast transients, tight control, wide soundstage, extended top and bottom end, engaging mids, a not too hot amp and lastly, quietness which I am very particular.

I want this to be equally good with headphones and efficient speakers which means power on tap,

In the end, I very much believe Odyssey will be unique and will not be like Nirvana or Bigger Ben. I will not be presumptuous to say it will be better than those amps but I know it won’t be lessor. It’s not a competition that I’m interested in but I want Odyssey to be fit for my purpose and preference. Amongst other things I want it to be ever slightly warm and that drop dead bass.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

EL156 is a tube I would like to design around some day, I have lusted after it, but too many other projects, probably never will but they sure are purdy.  Quite expensive but still nothing compared to legend tubes like NOS 300B, type 50, PX25, etc.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> EL156 is a tube I would like to design around some day, I have lusted after it, but too many other projects, probably never will but they sure are purdy.  Quite expensive but still nothing compared to legend tubes like NOS 300B, type 50, PX25, etc.


In looking at the history of EL34 and the events that follows, EL156 is the last of that illustrious family of tubes. 

This is an article I will spend some time reading because there's a lot in it.
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archi...m-Tube-Valley/Vacuum-Tube-Valley-Issue-16.pdf


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> In looking at the history of EL34 and the events that follows, EL156 is the last of that illustrious family of tubes.
> 
> This is an article I will spend some time reading because there's a lot in it.
> https://worldradiohistory.com/Archi...m-Tube-Valley/Vacuum-Tube-Valley-Issue-16.pdf



Do you plan to add GEC / Gold Lion KT77 to your wishlist?  Those seem to be getting quite rare.

Here, try these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-X-KT77-G...626979?hash=item592332e3a3:g:g~8AAOSwfSJbWLrN


----------



## UntilThen

I already have Gold Lion KT77 and I’m buying GEC KT77 from my supplier. To my ears the KT77 are one of the best in my stable. Fine stallions.


----------



## UntilThen

The Telefunken EL12 spez is better than the KT77- just. IMHO.


----------



## UntilThen

I’m getting a pair of lightly used GEC KT77 for $450 and a pair of lightly used Tung Sol 6550 1960s for $450. Both very rare to my knowledgeable supplier. That’s Aussie currency.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Feb 27, 2021)

Very nice, you will have a wide selection of the finest IDH power pentodes.  I wonder which ones become the daily driver


----------



## UntilThen

The brand new pair of NOS GEC KT88 with original GEC box will be last at $1100. Then comes good 6SL7 and 12a*7 and 6sn7. The love of NOS tubes cost me dearly and Odyssey will be one rare big albino whale. 😊


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Very nice, you will have a wide selection of the finest IDHT power pentodes.  I wonder which ones become the daily driver


There are all daily drivers rotated weekly except the GEC KT88 which I will juggle in my hands.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Do you not already have many good 6SN7 / 6SL7 from the GOTL days?  I remember your love for the Sylvania 6SN7W metal base.  IMO, the sound of the best 6SN7 surpasses the best 12AU7.

Loving NOS tubes is a dangerous illness, the more rare the tube the more severe the disease.  I will use this one soon, RCA 801A directly-heated triode, graphite plates and ceramic base.  I should probably donate them to a museum instead.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Do you not already have many good 6SN7 / 6SL7 from the GOTL days? I remember your love for the Sylvania 6SN7W metal base. IMO, the sound of the best 6SN7 surpasses the best 12AU7.


Sylvania 6sn7w metal base and Mullard ECC33 were sold off with Studio Six. I gave my jewels away. 😅

I do love the Brimar 12au7 long plates in TU 8200. Have already bought Siemens 12at7. Will be getting a pair of rare Mullard 12at7 with gold pins.

I have a pair of Tung Sol 12sl7gt bgrp. Will ask Tomas if I can use 12volts drivers. I suspect possible but will complicate things. Trying to keep it simple is a challenge.

That’s a very nice tube you have there. We have the same weakness for good rare tubes and I still have to collect good rectifiers. 😝


----------



## UntilThen

I want to dip in @leftside chest of rare drivers. 😀


----------



## UntilThen

Generally I find 12a*7 to have a tighter tone. 6sl7 and 6sn7 have a more full body tone.

It’s interesting that Auris Nirvana use a single 12au7 but it sounded lush and warm with the EL34s but still with great details.


----------



## UntilThen

Came back to the nation's capital and I had not listen to Elekit TU-8200 for a week. Absence makes the heart grow fonder except in this case it's a eargasm. Tubes used are Brimar 12au7 long plates and EL12 spez as well as the tube preamp of TU-8500, which sports a pair of Philips Miniwatt 12au7.

These tubes will eventually go into Odyssey and I can't wait !


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Feb 28, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Sylvania 6sn7w metal base and Mullard ECC33 were sold off with Studio Six. I gave my jewels away. 😅
> 
> I do love the Brimar 12au7 long plates in TU 8200. Have already bought Siemens 12at7. Will be getting a pair of rare Mullard 12at7 with gold pins.
> 
> ...



Can use a voltage doubler circuit with a switch to use 12.6V tubes, this is how it was done in the GOTL, 6.3VAC, then 12.6VDC / 25.2VDC from a voltage doubler.  But of course that means more work, more chassis space, and that is up to Ultrasonic if he recommends it.  I personally like to narrow the scope of tubes used to optimize the design, just my preference.  Jack of all trades vs. master of one sort of thing.

Here is my favorite rectifier 



I use tube rectification in my first ever SET amp, 4V B4 base European types, like these.



But have been using regulated supplies lately, so there isn't much point in a tube rectifier in that case.  I am thinking of using a tube rectifier in an E55L spud design since it will have a passive power supply.  I like that I can knock off some excess voltage and use an old transformer, and they look cool.

BTW, I hope you don't mind me butting into your thread @SonicTrance , I just like talking tube DIY so your thread is right up my alley!  But I will hush if it is a bother.


----------



## baronbeehive

I'm sure sonic won't mind.

For the 12v tubes you could use 6v to 12v adapters, Glenn makes those if you can't find them, but check with sonic first.


----------



## SonicTrance

L0rdGwyn said:


> But have been using regulated supplies lately, so there isn't much point in a tube rectifier in that case. I am thinking of using a tube rectifier in an E55L spud design since it will have a passive power supply. I like that I can knock off some excess voltage and use an old transformer, and they look cool.


Same here! I also use regulated supplies in my amps. UTs Odyssey will be an exemption. He wants a contrast to his Oblivion so I recommended we go 100% old school with this build! 

I agree they look cool. I'm a sucker for big tubes myself. I even have an amp that uses a 274b to rectify 115 VAC which then goes to a RC filter and finally powers the 12V backlights of the meters on the amp! Lol! 



L0rdGwyn said:


> BTW, I hope you don't mind me butting into your thread @SonicTrance , I just like talking tube DIY so your thread is right up my alley! But I will hush if it is a bother.


I don't mind at all! The more the merrier!


----------



## UntilThen (Feb 28, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Can use a voltage doubler circuit with a switch to use 12.6V tubes, this is how it was done in the GOTL, 6.3VAC, then 12.6VDC / 25.2VDC from a voltage doubler. But of course that means more work, more chassis space, and that is up to Ultrasonic if he recommends it. I personally like to narrow the scope of tubes used to optimize the design, just my preference. Jack of all trades vs. master of one sort of thing.
> 
> Here is my favorite rectifier



My previous Glenn OTL has the switch for 6/12/25v. I went nuts with tube rolling on that amp. I've tone down on my tube rolling a lot now. In fact, after I got Oblivion, I thought I had given up tubes. That's why I gave away my fav drivers with Studio Six. For Odyssey, I told myself to keep it simple and somehow still manage to add a few more drivers option. Most were suggested by Tomas. I had even given up thinking of using EL11 as one of the drivers but he suggested using it as I have so many of them. The one thing I did not do was to sell of my EL** tubes. Somehow I just wanted to hold on to them because in the back of my mind, there is always Berlin. You even did a mock up for me and that image is unforgettable.

Then the winds of change happen after I managed to snag a cheap TU-8200. If that didn't happen then I wouldn't have thought of buying NOS GEC KT66 and Philips Miniwatt and using my EL12 spez for the first time in an amp that can exploit it. This DIY amp sound so good with a pair of 12au7 and those power tubes that it make me want to have custom amp build for it. Started talking here about the 8200 and eventually went into a private conversation with Tomas about a possible amp. Our PMs went up to more than 200 posts and I decided to name this amp Odyssey, my call sign on Stereonet. With the support of Tomas, I decided to go for it, telling myself that this is the last amp because 6 intense years of this hobby has to have a climax. 

Tomas has been invaluable in his enthusiasm and helpfulness. Everyday for the last month or so, I log on to see a reply from him to my questions, endless questions from a non technical guy like me. Like any young man embarking on buying his first car, I wanted this amp to be powerful. I will go for a v8 instead of the 4 cylinders. It has to be turbo charged. 10w in triode mode is a lot even for my ambition. Tomas said a few more watts in UL and I have no idea what a few more watts is.

However power without refinement is no good and I know Tomas will put quality watts before power. If I wanted pure power I would have suggested push pull but I'm primarily driving headphones first and secondarily speakers. I have no doubt Odyssey will drive my Axis Voicebox S at 5 ohms and 83 dB. John Reilly the speaker designer will raise his eyebrows because he got me the Redgum Rgi120enr at 175w 8 ohms, 265w 4 ohms and 500w 2 ohms to drive it and drive it, it did. I realised by now that at 1 metre away from the speakers in nearfield listening, I only need 4 watts or less to get it to sing.



SonicTrance said:


> Same here! I also use regulated supplies in my amps. UTs Odyssey will be an exemption. He wants a contrast to his Oblivion so I recommended we go 100% old school with this build!
> 
> I agree they look cool. I'm a sucker for big tubes myself. I even have an amp that uses a 274b to rectify 115 VAC which then goes to a RC filter and finally powers the 12V backlights of the meters on the amp! Lol!



The name UT has stuck. Sometimes in the office, I almost introduce myself as UT. 

Yes let's go 100% old school because I remember my dad's old vintage receiver that I discovered in the roof cavity when I was young. Brings back nostalgia.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

SonicTrance said:


> Same here! I also use regulated supplies in my amps. UTs Odyssey will be an exemption. He wants a contrast to his Oblivion so I recommended we go 100% old school with this build!
> 
> I agree they look cool. I'm a sucker for big tubes myself. I even have an amp that uses a 274b to rectify 115 VAC which then goes to a RC filter and finally powers the 12V backlights of the meters on the amp! Lol!



Nice, old school is cool  I have gone for a minimalist "sleek" sort of look for most designs up until now, but my next amp will have an old school aesthetic, NOS bakelite knobs, NOS Amphenol sockets, stuff like that.

And wow!  Those meters don't realize how good they have it LOL.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> My previous Glenn OTL has the switch for 6/12/25v. I went nuts with tube rolling on that amp. I've tone down on my tube rolling a lot now. In fact, after I got Oblivion, I thought I had given up tubes. That's why I gave away my fav drivers with Studio Six. For Odyssey, I told myself to keep it simple and somehow still manage to add a few more drivers option. Most were suggested by Tomas. I had even given up thinking of using EL11 as one of the drivers but he suggested using it as I have so many of them. The one thing I did not do was to sell of my EL** tubes. Somehow I just wanted to hold on to them because in the back of my mind, there is always Berlin. You even did a mock up for me and that image is unforgettable.
> 
> Then the winds of change happen after I managed to snag a cheap TU-8200. If that didn't happen then I wouldn't have thought of buying NOS GEC KT66 and Philips Miniwatt and using my EL12 spez for the first time in an amp that can exploit it. This DIY amp sound so good with a pair of 12au7 and those power tubes that it make me want to have custom amp build for it. Started talking here about the 8200 and eventually went into a private conversation with Tomas about a possible amp. Our PMs went up to more than 200 posts and I decided to name this amp Odyssey, my call sign on Stereonet. With the support of Tomas, I decided to go for it, telling myself that this is the last amp because 6 intense years of this hobby has to have a climax.
> 
> ...



Well I'm sure you will be happy with the result.  I will jump on a soap box for a moment, and maybe I am preaching to the choir, but IMO the finest tube amplifiers being made right now are not being made commercially.  They are being made by people like Tomas, individual builders with the DIY spirit.  There are still new tube circuit innovations being created on diyAudio, where the technical tube experts reside.  With a commercial design, there is always going to be more overhead cost, and the profit margin takes away from the quality.  So going with a design from a custom amp builder is the right choice, IMO


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Nice, old school is cool  I have gone for a minimalist "sleek" sort of look for most designs up until now, but my next amp will have an old school aesthetic, NOS bakelite knobs, NOS Amphenol sockets, stuff like that.
> 
> And wow!  Those meters don't realize how good they have it LOL.


NOS knobs and sockets. Pity they don't have NOS Y8A sockets. There must be. Those sockets were from ages ago. Not sure about NOS knobs for the silver chassis. There's a bit of old school and new in Odyssey. It's almost space age !

Now let's talk meters because I would love a nice pair of meters. What would you suggest? Something like this? It even have an arrow head but it has to be silver instead of black.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Well I'm sure you will be happy with the result.  I will jump on a soap box for a moment, and maybe I am preaching to the choir, but IMO the finest tube amplifiers being made right now are not being made commercially.  They are being made by people like Tomas, individual builders with the DIY spirit.  There are still new tube circuit innovations being created on diyAudio, where the technical tube experts reside.  With a commercial design, there is always going to be more overhead cost, and the profit margin takes away from the quality.  So going with a design from a custom amp builder is the right choice, IMO


The chance encounter with Tomas is golden. Akin to when Glenn pop into Feliks Audio thread to talk to me and offered to make me the Glenn OTL amp.  I have been fortunate to run into some of the best custom amp builders on Head-Fi.

My journey into head-fi would not be complete without experiencing the involvement and excitement of having an amp being built by a custom amp builder.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> NOS knobs and sockets. Pity they don't have NOS Y8A sockets. There must be. Those sockets were from ages ago. Not sure about NOS knobs for the silver chassis. There's a bit of old school and new in Odyssey. It's almost space age !
> 
> Now let's talk meters because I would love a nice pair of meters. What would you suggest? Something like this? It even have an arrow head but it has to be silver instead of black.



Yes, unfortunately options for NOS Y8A are not good, probably best to pay the price for Yamamoto if they are needed.

I am sorry to say that I don't have much of an opinion on VU meters, I never use them!  But the ones you have pictured look quite nice, I like the spade-like design of the dial.


----------



## UntilThen

Not a question of paying but still waiting on a reply from Yamamoto.  Come on Yamamoto, I need those sockets.

Never use vu meters haha. I can't imagine the car dash without them. When pull over by the cops, you would say, sorry officer I don't know how fast I was going because there's no meters on my dash.  When they came out with digital readouts, I am shocked.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Not a question of paying but still waiting on a reply from Yamamoto.  Come on Yamamoto, I need those sockets.
> 
> Never use vu meters haha. I can't imagine the car dash without them. When pull over by the cops, you would say, sorry officer I don't know how fast I was going because there's no meters on my dash.  When they came out with digital readouts, I am shocked.



I reached out to Mr. Yamamoto some months ago to place another order and he never returned my email.  Not sure of the issue, but it was probably for the best I used something cheaper   have you asked JAC Music of they have them in stock?  He is their European supplier.


----------



## jonathan c

L0rdGwyn said:


> Yes, unfortunately options for NOS Y8A are not good, probably best to pay the price for Yamamoto if they are needed.
> 
> I am sorry to say that I don't have much of an opinion on VU meters, I never use them!  But the ones you have pictured look quite nice, I like the spade-like design of the dial.


With an amplifier name of “Odyssey” any VU metres have to feature Ionic or Alexandrian numerals...😀...


----------



## SonicTrance

L0rdGwyn said:


> I reached out to Mr. Yamamoto some months ago to place another order and he never returned my email.  Not sure of the issue, but it was probably for the best I used something cheaper   have you asked JAC Music of they have them in stock?  He is their European supplier.


Unfortunately no answer from Jacmusic either. It seems impossible to get Yamamoto sockets!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

SonicTrance said:


> Unfortunately no answer from Jacmusic either. It seems impossible to get Yamamoto sockets!



Hmmm well I have had a hard time getting a hold of Jac before too, I remember sending him an email and hearing back a month or two later.  Well hopefully one of them contacts you soon, sounds like there is still time since the amp will be built this summer.

I'm sure you've seen them, but this type is pretty much the only other option out there from what I can tell.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-New-E...605237?hash=item231ce4b235:g:6dMAAMXQW7VRFWSh


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> With an amplifier name of “Odyssey” any VU metres have to feature Ionic or Alexandrian numerals...



Haha I reckon I need a sun dial.



L0rdGwyn said:


> I'm sure you've seen them, but this type is pretty much the only other option out there from what I can tell.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-New-E...605237?hash=item231ce4b235:g:6dMAAMXQW7VRFWSh



Those are beyond vintage ! Could they at least use teflon and gold plated pins. There will be a market for it. Maybe I have to talk to mrsxuling.


----------



## hpamdr (Feb 28, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Hmmm well I have had a hard time getting a hold of Jac before too, I remember sending him an email and hearing back a month or two later.  Well hopefully one of them contacts you soon, sounds like there is still time since the amp will be built this summer.
> 
> I'm sure you've seen them, but this type is pretty much the only other option out there from what I can tell.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-New-E...605237?hash=item231ce4b235:g:6dMAAMXQW7VRFWSh


Last time i wanted to get quick reply from JacMusic, I directly called by phone (  ++49-017647291179).
-- edit
Go to contact page, and see local time before calling


----------



## UntilThen (Feb 28, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> Last time i wanted to get quick reply from JacMusic, I directly called by phone (  ++49-017647291179).



Ah ha the good old telephone. Now Jacmusic will have no clue why he's getting a 100 calls a day.


----------



## Zachik

hpamdr said:


> Go to contact page, and see local time before calling


Best chance for him answering the phone call is 3am local. Just saying...


----------



## hpamdr

Zachik said:


> Best chance for him answering the phone call is 3am local. Just saying...


Like it is said on the page, ["

we try not to work at night ​
"]_ (from jacmusic.com contact page)_


----------



## TommyFro

Hey everyone, first time poster in the thread, but long time lurker. Tomas wanted me to write up my thoughts on the Oblivion versus Citadel custom as most people haven’t been able to test both. I was able to for a few hours this past weekend, so these aren’t formal reviews, more just my thoughts on them. Specs of the systems are below. I usually don’t read/write reviews as I prefer to let my personal experience decide which option is better, but these amps are different enough that I feel I can steer people in the right direction easily.

Gear used: Either Soekris DCA2541 or Crane Song Solaris(xlr to rca adapters for oblivion)

Headphones: HD800 stock, HD580 with faux pads that reduce bass a few db, Aurorus Audio Borealis and Australis

Tubes: Stock in Oblivion, 2 Foton 6P7S, 2 RCA 6BG6-G, and Sofia Electric 6SL7 for Citadel

Source: Roon pulling local FLAC or from Tidal, Used through a Gustard U16 with digital volume control in Roon

My preferences: (These are my opinions, and I’m not saying I, or anyone else, is right or wrong in their opinions) Less bass and more of what I consider “linear” extension into the mids. I’m a Sennheiser fanboy, owning an HD800 that’s unmodded and a flatplate HD580, despite previously owning/trying lots of stuff from other companies.

*Oblivion*:

*TL;DR*: Warm sounding, fantastic bass, loses microdetail to get there

*Long winded*: Stock tubes. This is more what people will think of when they hear about the “tube amp” sound signature. This amp has really pronounced bass, great extension and quantity without sacrificing quality. You can still get bass definition with the correct pairings, but it adds to the bloominess on certain headphones which in turn will hide the definition on some songs. On HD800 and Borealis I thought it was a great pairing for those who wish they had more bass and wanted to quell the stock configuration’s treble harshness. For this more pleasurable listening experience you do have to give up a bit of the treble extension and microdetail along with a slight bit of bass definition. If I wanted an amp to just relax and really enjoy the music on HD800 or the Borealis, this would be a fantastic amp.

As for headphones that already have a lot of bass and might struggle a bit to give great treble extension, such as the Aurorus Australis, this amp might be a bit of a “too much of a good thing” situation. Unless you’re looking for just tons of bass, which is fun in certain songs don’t get me wrong, this pairing isn’t great to me. Details get lost, and the bass can/will add to the muddiness of a headphone which can overshadow or blend into the mids. I’d argue that this should be used with bass neutral headphones in order to give them a more well-rounded sound signature.

Technicalities:

Bass: Tons of quantity and well extended, decent definition but not fantastic

Mids: Vocals are lifelike and pure sounding, guitars and pianos are great

Highs: A bit rolled off, microdetail suffers but overall detail is decent

Transitions: Slow but not sluggish, the amp adds a natural decay to the sound

This is a really fun amplifier, and the people who are looking for this sound know who they are. Not my usual cup of tea normally, but for pure enjoyment, you can’t go wrong here.


*Citadel Custom*:

*TL;DR*: More linear, sounds like a solid state amp with the best of what tubes can offer added on

*Long winded*: These impressions are with rolled tubes, see above, and I can comment on tube rolling for this amp if people want. This sounds like a true hybrid amp, solid state with only a bit of the tube sound added. Bass is well controlled but does not have a ton of volume, mids sound a little less lifelike than the Oblivion, highs are very honest. This can make the HD800 or Borealis sound harsh, but very detailed. If you have trouble with treble sensitivity, I’d get the Oblivion. I don’t want to sound like I’m pulling this amp apart, it is the one I decided to keep as it’s on the next level up in technicalities.

It’s a dry sounding amplifier, closer to solid state than tube amp, but it adds a flavor of tubes without overdoing it: Slightly more bass, slight decay, slight reduction in treble harshness. The bass definition is much better than the Oblivion, Mids are less natural but seem more realistic to the recording with tons of texture and detail, highs can be harsh when the recording is harsh but give tons of detail and microdetail.

While this amp costs more than the Oblivion, it’s the next step up for a tube amp. This amp represents the culmination of what I’ve wanted for the past few years of gear churning.

*Technicalities*:
Bass: Great definition, realistic sounding without being overdone or unnatural to me

Mids: Very realistic to the recording, textured and detailed

Highs: Honest, if the details are harsh, it’s going to be harsh

Transitions: Fast for a tube amp, slight decay due to the tubes

*Conclusions*:

These are two great amplifiers, well done Tomas! They offer two different sound signatures for the two types of tube amp enthusiasts, and one could own both. The Oblivion has a tendency to sugar coat bad recordings and make everything sound fun, while the Citadel is very honest to the point where I can’t enjoy some of my music anymore because it’s poorly mastered. I won’t say which one is the right way to build a tube amp, but I will say I hope to own both one day.


----------



## SonicTrance

@TommyFro 
Thanks for the writeup! Very interesting to read and I'm sure it'll be interesting for others as well!


----------



## hpamdr

TommyFro said:


> ...
> 
> Gear used: Either Soekris DCA2541 or Crane Song Solaris(xlr to rca adapters for oblivion)
> 
> ...


Many thanks for this review  

About DAC pairing, did you tried "black filter" on dac2541 with citadel as it is the one I use for not so well mastered or compressed music. (on dac1541 i also use TNT filter for redbook)

About very precise listening did you compared with embedded amps for both of your dac vs citadel / oblivion ? 

_// About volume control, soekris dac with apple remote is really better than any control in roon but tis is matter of taste 
_


----------



## UntilThen

@TommyFro that's an effort to write that. Certainly not just an impressions but thanks for sharing your thoughts. Reading your preferences help me to understand how you frame your thoughts. Also the context of comparing Oblivion and Citadel and not with other amps. I have not heard Citadel so I cannot comment. 

I too own a HD800 original and unmodded. These days I don't use much of it, even though I like it when I bought it in 2017 with Yggdrasil and Ragnarok. It's left to my son for his 1st person shooter games because you can hear every footsteps with it. I mainly use a HE1000se and LCD-3f with my Oblivion and Elekit TU-8200. Haven't fire up Wa22 and La Figaro 339i for many days and unlikely to. Preferences is very varied with most people and preferences can change over time but not to extremes. Somedays I like a good dose of bass others days I like super clarity and details. It's for this reason I'm having another custom amp being built by Tomas, that is based on traditional SET tube amp design.


----------



## TommyFro

hpamdr said:


> Many thanks for this review
> 
> About DAC pairing, did you tried "black filter" on dac2541 with citadel as it is the one I use for not so well mastered or compressed music. (on dac1541 i also use TNT filter for redbook)
> 
> ...


Yeah, I used the black filter option. Still had some issues with bad recordings, but they weren't as bad as with the Solaris. 

As for the internal amplifier on the 2541, it's not bad but not great. I would consider it usable to watch movies or youtube. For music it lacks power to drive my hd800 in my opinion, has a hard time with dynamics and resolution but sounds very natural.

I did have an apple remote for volume control, but when putting the volume down on the 2541 I was getting compression. I'd normally have the output at -20 and I would lose details compared to using roon wasapi volume control. Best results for me was using the 2541 at 00 and having room at -10 to give me enough volume control with the amplifier.


----------



## TommyFro

UntilThen said:


> @TommyFro that's an effort to write that. Certainly not just an impressions but thanks for sharing your thoughts. Reading your preferences help me to understand how you frame your thoughts. Also the context of comparing Oblivion and Citadel and not with other amps. I have not heard Citadel so I cannot comment.
> 
> I too own a HD800 original and unmodded. These days I don't use much of it, even though I like it when I bought it in 2017 with Yggdrasil and Ragnarok. It's left to my son for his 1st person shooter games because you can hear every footsteps with it. I mainly use a HE1000se and LCD-3f with my Oblivion and Elekit TU-8200. Haven't fire up Wa22 and La Figaro 339i for many days and unlikely to. Preferences is very varied with most people and preferences can change over time but not to extremes. Somedays I like a good dose of bass others days I like super clarity and details. It's for this reason I'm having another custom amp being built by Tomas, that is based on traditional SET tube amp design.


I thought about comparing them to the Eddie Current Aficionado or Liquid Platinum, but I wanted to limit it to just the UltraSonic amps as those were the ones I had the most time with. 

Yeah, my main preferences lean towards harsh detailed treble with more linear bass extension. Hearing the Oblivion wasnt my normal sonic goal, but it was very well done and I'm planning to pick up an amplifier for that sound signature in the future. That amp will be for relaxing while the citadel will be for my critical listening.


----------



## UntilThen

My days of critical listening are few now. Most days I just want to listen to music for relaxation. Also the days of swapping amps will be reduced but I am very intrigued with the kt88 / EL34 and variants tone. Therefore the pursuit of those NOS power and driver tubes.... and rectifiers.


----------



## UntilThen

My only problem is after Odyssey.... like 2 years later I would want Tomas to make me a 300b or 2a3 amp. 🥸


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> My days of critical listening are few now. Most days I just want to listen to music for relaxation. Also the days of swapping amps will be reduced but I am very intrigued with the kt88 / EL34 and variants tone. Therefore the pursuit of those NOS power and driver tubes.... and rectifiers.


Anyway, for critical listening you can use auralic taurus and steal the HD800 to your son.
I also have HD800S and Cayin iHa-6 as reference for such critical listening or comparison. 
I hope eternity and infinity will be more on the oblivion side than the citadel. (_For sure Odyssey will be on the full tube tone using classic design and rectifier tube !)_


----------



## OctavianH

hpamdr said:


> I hope eternity and infinity will be more on the oblivion side than the citadel. (_For sure Odyssey will be on the full tube tone using classic design and rectifier tube !)_



From what Tomas told me, when we discussed about what circuit to choose, the Infinity/Eternity is the most "tubey" one from all, being more in this direction than Oblivion.
So the Citadel < Oblivion < Infinity/Eternity in terms of tube tone.


----------



## UntilThen (Mar 3, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> Anyway, for critical listening you can use auralic taurus and steal the HD800 to your son.
> I also have HD800S and Cayin iHa-6 as reference for such critical listening or comparison.
> I hope eternity and infinity will be more on the oblivion side than the citadel. (_For sure Odyssey will be on the full tube tone using classic design and rectifier tube !)_



I can assure you that with Oblivion and even Elekit TU-8200 with good tubes, critical listening is a given if you want it. If you heard Oblivion for the first time, you'll be in awe. For me, this amp does not produce quantity bass. It's quality bass and details are exceedingly good without any roll off in the top end. You can listen without fatigue and yet have enough high extensions to satisfy any needs. Anymore could be too much. This is where I differ from Tommy's impressions but then he was comparing Oblivion with Citadel. I was comparing Oblivion with Studio Six and Glenn OTL amp, 2 very capable tube amps.

Furthermore I don't need HD800 for critical listening. Other headphones come to mind. My HE1000se is very detailed and I'll take that over HD800 any day. One other headphone that is good with details is the Focal Utopia.

I may be surprised when I use HD800 after a long absence but it's not a headphone for daily use - for me at least.

Lastly, I've heard Susvara on 2 occasions. First time was with Woo Audio Wa33 > Susvara. Second time was a lengthy 2 hours session using Chord Hugo TT2 + M Scalar > with and without Auris Nirvana > Susvara. Both occasions were simply breath taking. For details, enjoyment and pure high fidelity, I would pick Susvara and it's a headphone I'm aiming for. Thereafter I'm done. Maybe a LCD-4 to replace the LCD-3f.


----------



## UntilThen (Mar 3, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> From what Tomas told me, when we discussed about what circuit to choose, the Infinity/Eternity is the most "tubey" one from all, being more in this direction than Oblivion.
> So the Citadel < Oblivion < Infinity/Eternity in terms of tube tone.


I don't want a tube amp with very tubey tone but I would want one that has more 2nd harmonic distortions than Oblivion. Hence the Odyssey with the old school traditional tube amp design.

Having live with Oblivion for more than a year, even though I like it, I would want another tube amp with a very different flavour to compliment it. Odyssey isn't that much different from Mogwai Se or Bigger Ben from Ampandsound. Sadly I've not heard either of those 2 but I've heard the Ampandsound Encore, which is the poor man's 300b amp. The Encore sounded really nice, with a lot more warmth and great midrange than Oblivion but yet very detailed.

I guess I should state my musical preference. I love classic rock, blues, ambience, soundtracks but I also love jazz and occasionally classical but those are not my main staple food. I also love listening to audiophile recordings because the sound quality is on another level from some badly recorded classic rock. Regardless of genre, I love it to be at least Tidal HiFi quality. If I wanted to get more SQ, I'll use my Rega RP8 with Apheta cartridge. My dac is Yggdrasil 1 and I have no wish to update it to the warmer version 2.


----------



## UntilThen

A good news came through from Tomas. Jacmusic replied and Yamamoto sockets will be in for Odyssey. Though it's going to cost me the price of a good pair of NOS tubes, I'm very happy because Yamamoto's socket are just first class.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> A good news came through from Tomas. Jacmusic replied and Yamamoto sockets will be in for Odyssey. Though it's going to cost me the price of a good pair of NOS tubes, I'm very happy because Yamamoto's socket are just first class.



Hey that's great!  They truly are first class.  I have used cheaper sockets on some other projects, they are okay, but I think I might return to Yamamoto for my next project.  I will need 6 or 7 sockets though, so I am going to take out a loan   

Yamamoto in my 3.5W SET.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Hey that's great! They truly are first class. I have used cheaper sockets on some other projects, they are okay, but I think I might return to Yamamoto for my next project. I will need 6 or 7 sockets though, so I am going to take out a loan
> 
> Yamamoto in my 3.5W SET.


Hahaha... I need 6 sockets in Odyssey.  2 x KT88 ; 1 x 5U4G ; 2 x EL156 (this is common for the EL** tubes - 10 holes) ; 1 x 6SN7 (I believe this is the same as the KT88 - octal sockets)

Your amp look very good with those Lundahl covers and transformers !

3.5w SET. Is it both headphone and for efficient speakers? Oblivion at 2.3w 8 ohms drives my speakers at nearfield listening. Odyssey will have 10w in triode mode - 8 ohms I believe.


----------



## UntilThen

Yamamoto sockets cost me as much as a pair of brand new NOS GEC KT66. I think that's ok. After all I didn't blink when I spend on the GEC KT66.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Hahaha... I need 6 sockets in Odyssey.  2 x KT88 ; 1 x 5U4G ; 2 x EL156 (this is common for the EL** tubes - 10 holes) ; 1 x 6SN7 (I believe this is the same as the KT88 - octal sockets)
> 
> Your amp look very good with those Lundahl covers and transformers !
> 
> 3.5w SET. Is it both headphone and for efficient speakers? Oblivion at 2.3w 8 ohms drives my speakers at nearfield listening. Odyssey will have 10w in triode mode - 8 ohms I believe.



More expensive than the KT66, but they will probably outlast them!  It is for efficient speakers first, my 92dB/W Snells, but I have included a headphone output which works well for my 300ohm ZMFs.  The output transformers do not have taps for headphones, they are wired for 8ohms, but a little trick is to parallel an 8ohm resistor on the headphone output.  This gives the tube its proper load and the headphone is run in parallel.  There is a loss of power this way, but it is not my main headphone amp.  Every amp has a headphone output for me though 

10W should be plenty even for somewhat insensitive speakers!  My next amp is a 6-7 watter using the 801A.  The tube filaments are radioactive, so I am hoping I will get superpowers eventually.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> More expensive than the KT66, but they will probably outlast them!  It is for efficient speakers first, my 92dB/W Snells, but I have included a headphone output which works well for my 300ohm ZMFs.  The output transformers do not have taps for headphones, they are wired for 8ohms, but a little trick is to parallel an 8ohm resistor on the headphone output.  This gives the tube its proper load and the headphone is run in parallel.  There is a loss of power this way, but it is not my main headphone amp.  Every amp has a headphone output for me though
> 
> 10W should be plenty even for somewhat insensitive speakers!  My next amp is a 6-7 watter using the 801A.  The tube filaments are radioactive, so I am hoping I will get superpowers eventually.


92dB is efficient. My Axis LS88 tower speakers are also 92 dB. It must be exciting to build an amp according to a specific tube type.

801A is direct heated tube and VinlySavor praised it. The photography in this blog is outstanding so are the many pristine tubes that he has at that time.
http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2014/04/tube-of-month-801a.html


----------



## UntilThen

How about Yamamoto VU meters?  These might cost me my apple tree.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> 92dB is efficient. My Axis LS88 tower speakers are also 92 dB. It must be exciting to build an amp according to a specific tube type.
> 
> 801A is direct heated tube and VinlySavor praised it. The photography in this blog is outstanding so are the many pristine tubes that he has at that time.
> http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2014/04/tube-of-month-801a.html



His blog is a favorite of mine, great reading and tube pornography  yes, 801A is a directly-heated triode, a transmitting tube.  I will use it in class A2, which is somewhat unusual.  In this configuration, the grid is able to go positive and negative, it will actually be biased at 0 volts.  Class A1 is more typical with the grid always negative.  It is a tricky amplifier to design, but doubles the power output   

Those Yamamoto meters are beautiful, but based on the socket prices, I am sure you will have to sell the apple tree and the farm


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> How about Yamamoto VU meters?  These might cost me my apple tree.


VU meters will not work good in your amp since you have speaker out. If I calibrate the meters according to the speakers the needles will barely move while listening to headphones. If I calibrate the meters to headphone listening they will overshoot when listening through speakers. It's a dilemma lol. We can get Yamamoto current (mA) meters if you like. I just checked and they're 65 EUR a piece! They'll look good since they're also silver =)


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> VU meters will not work good in your amp since you have speaker out. If I calibrate the meters according to the speakers the needles will barely move while listening to headphones. If I calibrate the meters to headphone listening they will overshoot when listening through speakers. It's a dilemma lol. We can get Yamamoto current (mA) meters if you like. I just checked and they're 65 EUR a piece! They'll look good since they're also silver =)



Alright I will sell the apple tree but keep the farm unless I'm getting a Yamamoto chassis lol - but no no no to Yamamoto chassis. I don't want this to be a Yamamoto amp.  
Sorry for the ignorance but if I get the mA meters, do they fluctuate or stay in one position? It don't really matter to me but just trying to understand as the Jacmusic site say that they are precision instruments and not just decoration.


----------



## OctavianH

Most probably they will stay fix showing you the current flows through the tube.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Sorry for the ignorance but if I get the mA meters, do they fluctuate or stay in one position? It don't really matter to me but just trying to understand as the Jacmusic site say that they are precision instruments and not just decoration.


They stay fixed


----------



## UntilThen

Good just like the Oblivion meters. If I wanted dancing meters, I'll have to sell the family puppy.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Good just like the Oblivion meters. If I wanted dancing meters, I'll have to sell the family puppy.



Dancing meters for a Dancing Queen from a swedish band.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm now very excited about the amp. Tomas is sending another email for the mA meters. Now there's no more to add. I've no more ideas for this puppy.


----------



## UntilThen

Alas Yamamoto meters are not to be because they have stopped producing it.


----------



## UntilThen (Mar 3, 2021)

Why didn't I have a custom amp with just these tubes?


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Why didn't I have a custom amp with just these tubes?


Too late UT - somebody beat you to it:


----------



## UntilThen

Are those EL** tubes?


----------



## mordy (Mar 3, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Are those EL** tubes?


Nah - 42 x 6AS7G and 12 x 6SN7 *per channel*. Possibly GEC 6AS7G and B65 ?
But I am sure that they will build you one with 84 EL12 Spez and 24 EL11 tubes if you so specify.
Time to join a health club and go to the gym -the entire setup weighs 211kg or 464lbs.
Maybe you will need new speakers stadium size: 500 watts per channel, 2-16Ω load before clipping
http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/ma-3.html


----------



## UntilThen

Atmasphere. Balanced OTL amp and a claim that it the best amplifier   500watts. Too rich for my blood.  I bet they are using Svetlana 6h13c. There won't be that many NOS tubes to burn up in one go.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Atmasphere. Balanced OTL amp and a claim that it the best amplifier   500watts. Too rich for my blood.  I bet they are using Svetlana 6h13c. There won't be that many NOS tubes to burn up in one go.


People are saying that if one tube is bad you would not notice it lol.


----------



## UntilThen

A not too expensive way to get good music. I had left the Rega RP8 at home while I brought the auto Denon DP300f with Ortofon Blue along. As source into Oblivion, details abound in a musical way. Hans Zimmer for a bit of soundtrack. 

Still love this amp after more than a year.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> A not too expensive way to get good music. I had left the Rega RP8 at home while I brought the auto Denon DP300f with Ortofon Blue along. As source into Oblivion, details abound in a musical way. Hans Zimmer for a bit of soundtrack.
> 
> Still love this amp after more than a year.



So which is better, the vinyl or the digital source?


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> So which is better, the vinyl or the digital source?


Depends on the gear used. I've always said that my Rega RP8 with Apheta cartridge and Avid Pellar phono stage has way more clarity than Yggdrasil but both are good enough for my needs and even more.

Vinyl has that organic feel that digital just doesn't have. A new album of quality pressing, a clean stylus and steady platform with a good tonearm will leave you in bliss. Now that I've my setup with the turntable within easy reach, I just love playing my new albums again. Pink Floyd, Eva Cassidy, Dire Straits, War On Drugs, Metallica, Beethoven, War of the Worlds, Norah Jones and the list goes on.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Depends on the gear used. I've always said that my Rega RP8 with Apheta cartridge and Avid Pellar phono stage has way more clarity than Yggdrasil but both are good enough for my needs and even more.
> 
> Vinyl has that organic feel that digital just doesn't have. A new album of quality pressing, a clean stylus and steady platform with a good tonearm will leave you in bliss. Now that I've my setup with the turntable within easy reach, I just love playing my new albums again. Pink Floyd, Eva Cassidy, Dire Straits, War On Drugs, Metallica, Beethoven, War of the Worlds, Norah Jones and the list goes on.



Agreed!  In my system, analog trumps vinyl for soundstage, clarity, and realism.  I have a new DAC coming, so when it arrives all bets are off, but I have faith the vinyl will come out on top.  Finding a diamond-in-the-rough record is a great feeling as well, all the more rewarding when it is first played.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Depends on the gear used. I've always said that my Rega RP8 with Apheta cartridge and Avid Pellar phono stage has way more clarity than Yggdrasil but both are good enough for my needs and even more.
> 
> Vinyl has that organic feel that digital just doesn't have. A new album of quality pressing, a clean stylus and steady platform with a good tonearm will leave you in bliss. Now that I've my setup with the turntable within easy reach, I just love playing my new albums again. Pink Floyd, Eva Cassidy, Dire Straits, War On Drugs, Metallica, Beethoven, War of the Worlds, Norah Jones and the list goes on.


If you want even more clarity the best with recording is still original master reel 2 Reel tape. 
Get a vintage Studer or Revox, find master tape _(or low n copies)_ and enjoy.


----------



## UntilThen

Keenan, buying LPs is even more addictive than buying tubes. I have these machines for cleaning vinyl even most of my LPs are new but there were a bunch of 2nd hand mint conditioned jazz and classical ones I bought from a friend who has a great collection.

The bottle of liquigas cleans it thoroughly and also makes me cycle faster.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> If you want even more clarity the best with recording is still original master reel 2 Reel tape.
> Get a vintage Studer or Revox, find master tape _(or low n copies)_ and enjoy.


I have to draw a line somewhere. My eldest brother has a reel 2 reel that he took to Canada when he migrated years ago.

As I said somewhere earlier in this thread, someday I'll have a live orchestra playing for me.


----------



## hpamdr

What an organization to cleanup disk... Do you use ultrasonic cleaning, carbon fiber brush and micro fiber brush to finish.


----------



## UntilThen

I use the Ultrasonic Record Cleaner to clean the LPs. They go on a spindle and are lowered into the bath. Then it starts to rotate and gets clean in the tub for 20 mins. Of course you add a special solution to the water first. 

After cleaning I use the Record Doctor V, to vacuum off the water and dry it. Then hey presto no more pops and crackles and the sound of music fills the air.   

P/S always use a new special record sleeve after each wash. How often do I clean? Whenever I'm not lazy, which is like once a year.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Keenan, buying LPs is even more addictive than buying tubes. I have these machines for cleaning vinyl even most of my LPs are new but there were a bunch of 2nd hand mint conditioned jazz and classical ones I bought from a friend who has a great collection.
> 
> The bottle of liquigas cleans it thoroughly and also makes me cycle faster.



It really is, I try to be choosey with my purchases so I don't drown in vinyl (although this might be a good way to go ).  I recently completed an ultrasonic cleaning setup, what a difference it makes!  Right now I air dry, but I might add a vacuum to speed things along


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> It really is, I try to be choosey with my purchases so I don't drown in vinyl (although this might be a good way to go ).  I recently completed an ultrasonic cleaning setup, what a difference it makes!  Right now I air dry, but I might add a vacuum to speed things along


Where do we find time for all these things in this hobby when we have a full time job? 

Ask Dyson to make you a special vacuum but seriously the Record Doctor V is cheap and works well.


----------



## UntilThen

I love a colour vinyl. Tangerine Dream ! Can't remember how much I paid for this album from Amazon. Also Eva Cassidy 4 LPS album - Nightbird.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> I love a colour vinyl. Tangerine Dream ! Can't remember how much I paid for this album from Amazon. Also Eva Cassidy 4 LPS album - Nightbird.





UntilThen said:


> Where do we find time for all these things in this hobby when we have a full time job?
> 
> Ask Dyson to make you a special vacuum but seriously the Record Doctor V is cheap and works well.



Easy, you just chat in Head-Fi in the middle of the night while you are at work  sometimes it does feel like two jobs though lol I am working toward doing a little less DIY, I just don’t know if I’m capable of stopping, it’s too much fun.


----------



## UntilThen

I draw the line about chatting at work but once home I'll chat about just anything. Continuing about vinyl.... I can't work to hear War On Drugs 'A Deeper Understanding' on Odyssey. This Ortofon Blue cartridge is perfect for this kind of music. Full body tone. Was tempted to get the Bronze but... Blue will do for now.  Was even tempted to get the Denon DL 103r. Cartridges ! definitely have a greater impact on tone than tubes.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> As I said somewhere earlier in this thread, someday I'll have a live orchestra playing for me.



It might be cheaper lol!

Surprised  you guys prefer vinyl, I'm not an expert in vinyl but I don't see how those analogue grooves can possibly match the frequency band that CD's have. CD's, getting better all the time and approaching the quality of high res, were designed to have all of the frequency band that encompasses human hearing, with a bit more added on for noise reduction.

Hey UntilThen, it's too late now to change your mind on Odyssey specs, for Gods sake no more rectifier or driver tubes.. just joking .


----------



## L0rdGwyn

baronbeehive said:


> It might be cheaper lol!
> 
> Surprised  you guys prefer vinyl, I'm not an expert in vinyl but I don't see how those analogue grooves can possibly match the frequency band that CD's have. CD's, getting better all the time and approaching the quality of high res, were designed to have all of the frequency band that encompasses human hearing, with a bit more added on for noise reduction.
> 
> Hey UntilThen, it's too late now to change your mind on Odyssey specs, for Gods sake no more rectifier or driver tubes.. just joking .



I think it has to be heard to be believed  of course the CD has higher resolution, dynamic range, etc. Regardless, I think the signal chain plays a role.  All analog with tube amplification from start-to-finish (turntable > tube phono > tube amplification).  For clarity and realism, there is no comparison.  BUT, as I said, I have a new DAC from SW1X on the way, so I am interested to see how it compares (the designer at SW1X prides himself on making digital sound analog).


----------



## baronbeehive

L0rdGwyn said:


> I think it has to be heard to be believed  of course the CD has higher resolution, dynamic range, etc. Regardless, I think the signal chain plays a role.  All analog with tube amplification from start-to-finish (turntable > tube phono > tube amplification).  For clarity and realism, there is no comparison.  BUT, as I said, I have a new DAC from SW1X on the way, so I am interested to see how it compares (the designer at SW1X prides himself on making digital sound analog).



That should be interesting!

Of course I don't deny that the analogue sound is something some people prefer, but in my experience it doesn't stand any comparison. But I haven't heard the top end gear though.


----------



## UntilThen

https://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/for-audiophiles/cd-or-vinyl/


----------



## UntilThen

Regardless I use both mediums. Vinyl and streaming. So why do I use vinyl when streaming is convenient and have great resolution and dynamics? One, the vinyl reproduction that I hear does not loose out on resolution and dynamics to Tidal HiFi quality. Two, vinyl sound more earthly to me.  Three, I'm returning to old school.... remember Odyssey is returning from a long sojourn dressed in classic old school garb, resplendent in vintage glory.

Four, I use streaming of course. Why? You must be a monk not to be aware that everything is streaming now. From Foxtel to Netflix, Disney, Stan, Spotify, Apple Music, Youtube music, Tidal Hifi, Qubuz, etc. It's convenient and clean. If you wake up in the middle of the night and want to listen to music, it's easier to turn on Tidal, select a song and away you go. You put on an LP to play on a Sunday night, when you want to relax, have a glass of red in one hand and a pistol in the other. It's thrilling. Don't believe? Try it. What's the pistol for? It's a water pistol filled with red wine. Now debate whether it's better to drink wine from the glass or from the pistol.


----------



## UntilThen

I had barely moved in yesterday. Things are still unpacked but I did setup the computer first, my essential dac and tube amps and have music ! It's a clean desk policy so it's just the monitor - monitors if you count the pair of monitors !!!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Regardless I use both mediums. Vinyl and streaming. So why do I use vinyl when streaming is convenient and have great resolution and dynamics? One, the vinyl reproduction that I hear does not loose out on resolution and dynamics to Tidal HiFi quality. Two, vinyl sound more earthly to me.  Three, I'm returning to old school.... remember Odyssey is returning from a long sojourn dressed in classic old school garb, resplendent in vintage glory.



Yes and record players used to have a handle to wind them up.... !


UntilThen said:


> I had barely moved in yesterday. Things are still unpacked but I did setup the computer first, my essential dac and tube amps and have music ! It's a clean desk policy so it's just the monitor - monitors if you count the pair of monitors !!!



That's all that's really necessary after all. In my first flat the only furniture I had was a picnic table and a record player, actually it was only a walkman and active speakers!


----------



## UntilThen

@baronbeehive I have not heard the term record player for a very long time. 😀


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> @baronbeehive I have not heard the term record player for a very long time. 😀



Please use the accepted nomenclature... it's called a phonograph.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> Yes and record players used to have a handle to wind them up.... !
> 
> 
> That's all that's really necessary after all. In my first flat the only furniture I had was a picnic table and a record player, actually it was only a walkman and active speakers!





L0rdGwyn said:


> Please use the accepted nomenclature... it's called a phonograph.


Or Victoria...


----------



## jonathan c

jonathan c said:


> Or Victrola...


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Here @baronbeehive , a recording I made of my system around Christmas time, all analog, not the same as real life but gives a flavor


----------



## LoryWiv

jonathan c said:


> Or Victoria...


Victrola?


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Please use the accepted nomenclature... it's called a phonograph.


Phonograph really? Miss the h and add a r and you’re in dangerous music.


----------



## mordy

baronbeehive said:


> Yes and record players used to have a handle to wind them up.... !
> 
> 
> That's all that's really necessary after all. In my first flat the only furniture I had was a picnic table and a record player, actually it was only a walkman and active speakers!


Reminds me when I arrived in the US in 1967 with a suitcase full of records and not much else. There were Hi Fi stores in Manhattan on 45th St and I bought a KLH 11 portable record player for my dorm room.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> @baronbeehive I have not heard the term record player for a very long time. 😀



Really! You'll be telling me next you've never heard of the wax cylinder.. I thought they were very promising .


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Phonograph really? Miss the h and add a r and you’re in dangerous music.



My profile pic above.. now that's p(h)o(r)nographic if I say so myself.

Reminds me of the Monty Python sketch, whenever things were getting a bit out of hand Graham Chapman would come on dressed as a military colonel and say "Now stop that, things are getting silly!"


----------



## baronbeehive

L0rdGwyn said:


> Here @baronbeehive , a recording I made of my system around Christmas time, all analog, not the same as real life but gives a flavor




Thanks, looking forward to checking that out in a minute! I have a digital recording of a 1957 Milt Jackson called "Bags and Flutes" which is excellent in terms of clarity and reproduction, except that they put the drums in the left speaker, vibes on the right etc as they did in those days, other than that superb! Just shows what they could do if they tried, especially with those old jazz recordings, blue note of course too.

What are those great looking speakers?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

baronbeehive said:


> Thanks, looking forward to checking that out in a minute! I have a digital recording of a 1957 Milt Jackson called "Bags and Flutes" which is excellent in terms of clarity and reproduction, except that they put the drums in the left speaker, vibes on the right etc as they did in those days, other than that superb! Just shows what they could do if they tried, especially with those old jazz recordings, blue note of course too.
> 
> What are those great looking speakers?



Old Blue Note pressings are excellent.  Those speakers are Snell J/II from 1992, last year of their manufacture.  They are 92dB/W, great for tube amps 

Here are some pictures from the restoration: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l0rdgwyns-diy-audio.921105/post-15737053


----------



## jonathan c

L0rdGwyn said:


>



The Snell J are wonderful speakers from a great designer - Kevin Voecks. I can remember when he was at Mirage (in Canada) and was later involved with, but did not initiate, the development and realisation of the M-1, an absolute favourite of mine.


----------



## mordy

jonathan c said:


> The Snell J are wonderful speakers from a great designer - Kevin Voecks. I can remember when he was at Mirage (in Canada) and was later involved with, but did not initiate, the development and realisation of the M-1, an absolute favourite of mine.


Brings back memories - I owned the Mirage M3si for some twenty years - 135lbs each:


----------



## L0rdGwyn

jonathan c said:


> The Snell J are wonderful speakers from a great designer - Kevin Voecks. I can remember when he was at Mirage (in Canada) and was later involved with, but did not initiate, the development and realisation of the M-1, an absolute favourite of mine.



Nice!  The M-1's look very cool, those things need some juice at 83dB.  The J/II are actually the last of the J line that Snell designed himself before his death in 1984, Voecks worked on the revision leading to the J/III, according to Peter Qvortrup.  In either case, I am happy to have them, I love these speakers  this pair is from the last year of their manufacture in 1992.

Here is a cool article by Art Dudley (RIP) talking about his experience owning the J/II in the mid 80s.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-115


----------



## mordy

baronbeehive said:


> Really! You'll be telling me next you've never heard of the wax cylinder.. I thought they were very promising .


There are people who enjoy the past. Here is a session from two years ago where a 1924 style jazz band band was recorded using a wax cylinder. You can can compare the sound to present day sound. First the session and at 2:40 a snippet of the newly recorded wax cylinder (it's enough to get the idea lol):


----------



## Monsterzero

UntilThen said:


> Keenan, buying LPs is even more addictive than buying tubes. I have these machines for cleaning vinyl even most of my LPs are new but there were a bunch of 2nd hand mint conditioned jazz and classical ones I bought from a friend who has a great collection.
> 
> The bottle of liquigas cleans it thoroughly and also makes me cycle faster.


----------



## UntilThen

Wow so many posts here and everywhere to catch up from the 2 days of moving and unpacking. Finally it is set up. My music room is ready. Almost... need some nice framed Monet pictures.

Abbey Road Studios


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Wow so many posts here and everywhere to catch up from the 2 days of moving and unpacking. Finally it is set up. My music room is ready. Almost... need some nice framed Monet pictures.
> 
> Abbey Road Studios



Congrats, your room looks incredible! There are several things I like in your picture:
1. KT66 on your TU-8200 amp
2. Acer Predator monitor -> I have the same but lower resolution 2560x1440 G-Sync
3. Your gaming rig -> did not knew you are a gamer
4. Chair -> a kind of Game of Thrones one
5. your racks (nothing anti-feminism here, just those 2... )


----------



## UntilThen

@Monsterzero what's so inconvenient about this? and it is Odyssey !!!


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Congrats, your room looks incredible! There are several things I like in your picture:
> 1. KT66 on your TU-8200 amp
> 2. Acer Predator monitor -> I have the same but lower resolution 2560x1440 G-Sync
> 3. Your gaming rig -> did not knew you are a gamer
> ...


Thank you !  The bedroom looks better but I won't be sharing that !

I was 2020 World gaming champion of just about every games. Sold off the Studio Six for that rig and Predator. Every time I use the PC I hear Studio Six singing. Not done yet. I've to get matching Corsair keyboard and mouse.

Wonder if I should ask Tomas to put some RGB on Odyssey....


----------



## OctavianH (Mar 7, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Wonder if I should ask Tomas to put some RGB on Odyssey....



Sorry to disappoint you, I am more old school and I hate RGB. I think the gaming world went wrong nowadays and kids just enjoy lightning. I have turned off all my RGB and still use a "full metal" Fractal Design case. However I still enjoy a Logitech G512 keyboard and my Logitech G900 mouse which still have the lights on. And I am playing Valhalla for one month already.


----------



## UntilThen

Of course I am kidding about RGB 😀 Novelty of RGB has worn off.

Black and silver now and tube glow. 😃


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Of course I am kidding about RGB 😀


Mee too. We need to listen to decent music like:



Live in Sweden, near Tomas.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Wow so many posts here and everywhere to catch up from the 2 days of moving and unpacking. Finally it is set up. My music room is ready. Almost... need some nice framed Monet pictures.
> 
> Abbey Road Studios



Haha.. where's the zebra crossing!

If you get the Poppy fields painting then, not only will your music collection be identical to mine but also your room decoration lol!


----------



## baronbeehive

mordy said:


> There are people who enjoy the past. Here is a session from two years ago where a 1924 style jazz band band was recorded using a wax cylinder. You can can compare the sound to present day sound. First the session and at 2:40 a snippet of the newly recorded wax cylinder (it's enough to get the idea lol):




Thanks! My musical evening is shaping up nicely!

I don't wish to denigrate the past, what they achieved with the technology at the time was pretty amazing, and that's without computers or transistors and the like!


----------



## baronbeehive

baronbeehive said:


> Haha.. where's the zebra crossing!
> 
> If you get the Poppy fields painting then, not only will your music collection be identical to mine but also your room decoration lol! .. apart from your rig, mine looks more like make and mend.. It's sitting on a trolley I made at school way back!


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Wow so many posts here and everywhere to catch up from the 2 days of moving and unpacking. Finally it is set up. My music room is ready. Almost... need some nice framed Monet pictures.
> 
> Abbey Road Studios


Very nice setup, exept for the tower case pimped like a drift car. 
The only thing you miss here is a relaxing chair with footrest 
Oblivion is not anymore at the top of the rack, i do not see any space for odyssey...


----------



## OctavianH

hpamdr said:


> Very nice setup, exept for the tower case pimped like a drift car.
> The only thing you miss here is a relaxing chair with footrest
> Oblivion is not anymore at the top of the rack, i do not see any space for odyssey...



Corsair Air Liquid system, most probably G-Skill memory. But that video card with riser and almost no airflow. Ouch. During long gaming sessions I would be curious to know what temps it has.  Seems a ROG Strix with some decent 3 slot cooling but I would not put it vertically. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Haha.. where's the zebra crossing!
> 
> If you get the Poppy fields painting then, not only will your music collection be identical to mine but also your room decoration lol!


Haven't decide on the painting yet. Maybe I have to paint it myself.   

Haven't power on Oblivion for a while but tonight is the night. As usual I'm astonished at how good this amp makes my He1000se sound. Elekit TU-8200 is also powered on but on switching over to Oblivion, it's an incredible tone. Oblivion with cheap tubes playing ball with 8200 that has Brimar 12au7 long plates and GEC KT66.


----------



## UntilThen (Mar 8, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> Very nice setup, exept for the tower case pimped like a drift car.
> The only thing you miss here is a relaxing chair with footrest
> Oblivion is not anymore at the top of the rack, i do not see any space for odyssey...



I can't have a relaxing recliner chair because I will fall asleep listening to music. When Odyssey comes, Elekit TU-8500 and TU-8200 will be delegated to the lower shelf. Wa22 will be returned to Sydney home and La Figaro 339i will be sold to a new owner this Sat. Odyssey will sit alongside the turntable. Put Oblivion to the 2nd shelf because I don't need to change tubes. Bifrost 2 will also be returned to Sydney home. Currently Axis Voicebox S speakers are driven by Elekit TU-8200 but that duty will fall on Odyssey when she comes.

It hadn't occurred to me but when I was putting at the green on the golf course this afternoon, I noticed that my putter is the Hot Shot Odyssey putter. This name is now following me around in all that I do.



OctavianH said:


> Corsair Air Liquid system, most probably G-Skill memory. But that video card with riser and almost no airflow. Ouch. During long gaming sessions I would be curious to know what temps it has.  Seems a ROG Strix with some decent 3 slot cooling but I would not put it vertically. Just my 2 cents.



Corsair iCUE H115i liquid cooling. NZXT h710i black case, Gigabyte RTX 2070 Super Windforce OC 3x 8g on riser. No problem with cooling but I might have it mounted horizontally without the riser. Ryzen 7 3800x, Corsair Vengence RGB Pro 32gb ( 4 x 8gb) chose this for more colored display.  Gigabyte Aorus NVME Gen4 1tb M.2, Crucial2 500gb 3D NAND NVMe M.2, Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 1tb, NZXT AER RGB 3 x 120mm fans, Deepcool dq850 850w power supply.

Got this rig just before NVIDIA announced the RTX 3080.. but 2070 super is fast enough for me. It's surprisingly very quiet. The GPU fans don't spin unless needed to. 

This is the system.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Corsair iCUE H115i liquid cooling. NZXT h710i black case, Gigabyte RTX 2070 Super Windforce OC 3x 8g on riser. No problem with cooling but I might have it mounted horizontally without the riser. Ryzen 7 3800x, Corsair Vengence RGB Pro 32gb ( 4 x 8gb) chose this for more colored display.  Gigabyte Aorus NVME Gen4 1tb M.2, Crucial2 500gb 3D NAND NVMe M.2, Seagate, Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 1tb, NZXT AER RGB 3 x 120mm fans, Deepcool dq850 850w power supply.
> 
> Got this rig just before NVIDIA announced the the RTX 3080.. but 2070 super is fast enough for me. It's surprisingly very quiet. The GPU fans don't spin unless needed to.
> 
> This is the system.



Nice choice of components. I like it and it is close to what I use. But I have 3900X and 1080ti. I was planning an upgrade to Ampere but then found that an RTX3080 costs much more than I would pay for because of the mining crysis. Anyway, I was able to play decently Cyberpunk 2077 and now Valhalla at 2K with G-Sync. And I keep only 2 sticks of RAM because if I put all 4 I have problems with RAM overlocking. Let's hope thing will work better when I'll upgrade to 5000 series.


----------



## UntilThen

The rack with Odyssey putter


----------



## UntilThen

Omg there's even Odyssey electrostatic speakers.
https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/to...-martin-logan-odyssey-electrostatic-speakers/


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Wow so many posts here and everywhere to catch up from the 2 days of moving and unpacking. Finally it is set up. My music room is ready. Almost... need some nice framed Monet pictures.
> 
> Abbey Road Studios


Looks great UT! I would put a solid side on the pc so you don't have all of that flashy light...but that is just personal preference.
Maybe a nice comfy chair....after quite some time I felt them much better for critical listening while not at the pc and on the internet...again personal preference.
Congrats on the room. Nothing beats a listening room!


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Looks great UT! I would put a solid side on the pc so you don't have all of that flashy light...but that is just personal preference.
> Maybe a nice comfy chair....after quite some time I felt them much better for critical listening while not at the pc and on the internet...again personal preference.
> Congrats on the room. Nothing beats a listening room!


Thanks Joe. Your music room is just as nice. I might have to borrow some of your posters.  I wanted a firm supportive chair so that's the chair. Perhaps I should have gotten one with head rest and in leather.

Having spend extra for the RGB fans and rams, covering it up .... actually I'm already tired of the lights.  Well it's at my feet so I don't stare at it all the time.

On the left of the table is a wooden cupboard in solid wood. That's for my audio gear and tubes. Yes it's nice to have a room dedicated to music listening.


----------



## baronbeehive

@L0rdGwyn I had an interesting nostalgia trip with your recording of Art Blakey, very enjoyable, the sax player, I don't know who it was, came across very well. Takes me back to my days with my "record player".. mine wasn't very good and kept breaking down until I finally lost patience with it.

The Milt Jackson album of mine, I mentioned has a flute player on it and it seems that he is blowing into his instrument a few feet away from your left ear, the sound is so realistic!

@mordy that was fascinating to hear the recording on wax, the beginnings of it all!

Thanks guys .


----------



## mordy

baronbeehive said:


> @L0rdGwyn I had an interesting nostalgia trip with your recording of Art Blakey, very enjoyable, the sax player, I don't know who it was, came across very well. Takes me back to my days with my "record player".. mine wasn't very good and kept breaking down until I finally lost patience with it.
> 
> The Milt Jackson album of mine, I mentioned has a flute player on it and it seems that he is blowing into his instrument a few feet away from your left ear, the sound is so realistic!
> 
> ...


The recording engineers of the day had to be on top of everything - musicians who played loud had to positioned further away and those with soft sounding instruments near the horn. Direct - to - wax/disc or whatever; no room for errors although here and there there are different takes saved.
Sometimes people use modern equipment with a single microphone employing such techniques:
(Notice the foot signal at 2:40)


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 9, 2021)

mordy said:


> The recording engineers of the day had to be on top of everything - musicians who played loud had to positioned further away and those with soft sounding instruments near the horn. Direct - to - wax/disc or whatever; no room for errors although here and there there are different takes saved.
> Sometimes people use modern equipment with a single microphone employing such techniques:
> (Notice the foot signal at 2:40)




Yeah, it's amazing how they did what they did with the technology of the day, one can only suppose if they were around today they would revel in the possibilities they would have with the cutting edge technology we have now.

Edit: ... and the sort of things that sonic has done with the Oblivion, horizontal load lines, FET followers and the like.. whatever next!!


----------



## UntilThen

I did a last audition of Auralic Taurus Mk2 with Oblivion before selling the Taurus this Sat. A buyer wants it already.

So I start with the Taurus using Yggdrasil and He1000se. This is one of the best solid state that I've heard. I even prefer it to the SPL Phonitor X. Taurus exudes a clear, luxurious and airy tone with an engaging mid range and the bass is taut and punchy. Makes my He1000se sound like a classy outfit. I could live with Taurus as the only amp and be totally happy because it's very slightly warm and yet it sound neutral. No contradiction here. There's gobs of power as it's a fully balanced amp. Auralic nails it with this amp. I'm surprised they did not make a successor to it. 

Switching to Oblivion, I was stunned that Tomas's masterpiece do a lot more of what Taurus has produced. After all the accolades that I've given to Taurus, I can only say that Oblivion is a much better sounding hybrid amp to my ears. In fact, if I had to choose just one amp then it would be the Oblivion. Didn't I just say that of the Taurus?  Well I did but Oblivion has just outclass the already superb Taurus with wider soundstage, slight tube tone, a punchy bass and a midrange where I could just indulge in sweet vocals.

This listening session with Taurus and Oblivion has been most interesting. It also makes me feel 'ok' with letting Taurus go because I still have Oblivion.

Oblivion vs Elekit TU-8500 / TU-8200 .... I won't go into many words here but much as I love the Elekit combo with all those superb NOS tubes, I still prefer Oblivion by a slight margin. However with the Elekit combo, I could roll tubes at will and it will also burn a hole in my pocket ! Each change of tubes just bring joy to my face.  I can't change anything on Oblivion except the music, which is probably what I need.  

Now Oblivion vs Odyssey? You have to wait till July or August to find out.  Fortunately for Odyssey, I would have invested quite a few tubes for it as it uses the same tube compliments as the Elekit TU-8200 and more.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Now Oblivion vs Odyssey? You have to wait till July or August to find out.


I don't know about you.. I can't wait .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I don't know about you.. I can't wait .


All good things must wait.


----------



## SonicTrance

First Infinity for sale is now complete! @DecentLevi 
This one has the tube rolling add-on. Here with KT66's and 6J5G's


----------



## UntilThen

The silver front plate with the black knobs transform the amp. Stunning.

Love the looks despite the size.

What is the power output with those tubes configuration?


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> The silver front plate with the black knobs transform the amp. Stunning.
> 
> Love the looks despite the size.
> 
> What is the power output with those tubes configuration?


Thanks!

The power output will be roughly the same regardless of tube config since all tubes needs to run at the same bias current. About 5W at the speaker jacks.


----------



## DecentLevi (Mar 13, 2021)

Wow, looks absolutely astonishing. I'm proud to be the first Infinity customer, and can barely wait to try it. @SonicTrance really pulled out all the stops and went the extra mile for me, seamlessly integrating multiple customization requests and not griping... I'm sure some amp builders would tell me where I can '_shove it_', but he actually _wanted _to help tailor my amp to perfection! And he even said it sounds 'mighty' good (well let's just say it was a strong adjective).

I may be the first Infinity customer but time will tell if I will also be the first recipient. I'm facing temporary monetary setbacks so it could be someone else could get theirs before mine.

Now Tomas I need you to do a 2-page impression / review / critical analyses for me... nah joking, I understand about not causing expectation bias and MOT's having their 'hands tied' on reviewing their own work. But I give you my blessing to write a sentence or so on your personal opinion. And let's make it exciting. Can you try my very own EL39 and EL12 Spez that you have (separately, manually biased) outputs with any favorite input tubes?



SonicTrance said:


> Thanks!
> 
> The power output will be roughly the same regardless of tube config since all tubes needs to run at the same bias current. About 5W at the speaker jacks.


Also this makes me curious - if the power output doesn't change much with tubes, does that in a way mean that tube rolling on this amp doesn't make quite as much a difference as with the likes of a traditional OTL amp? In many cases I recall tube rolling on other amps not only changed characteristics like tonality, soundstage and extension, but also dynamics/'slam' and I think this dynamic change had something to do with rolling tubes that synergize better/worse with certain headphones according to their varying power output.

One more thing - for the others here would you mind to explain in your own words the function of the two smaller knobs on the front plate?
And PS - for anyone who's curious about those two narrow metal nozzles on the top in between the tubes; those are the milti-turn trimmers (sensitive potentiometers) for adjusting the bias; and the 4x mA meters are level 'health' meters, one for each tube.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Wow, looks absolutely astonishing. I'm proud to be the first Infinity customer, and can barely wait to try it. @SonicTrance really pulled out all the stops and went the extra mile for me, seamlessly integrating multiple customization requests and not griping... I'm sure some amp builders would tell me where I can '_shove it_', but he actually _wanted _to help tailor my amp to perfection! And he even said it sounds 'mighty' good (well let's just say it was a strong adjective).



Tomas will go the extra mile with his customers. I really think he enjoys what he is building and every new amp that I've seen, have been great looking and also many satisfied customers. 



DecentLevi said:


> Also this makes me curious - if the power output doesn't change much with tubes, does that in a way mean that tube rolling on this amp doesn't make quite as much a difference as with the likes of a traditional OTL amp? In many cases I recall tube rolling on other amps not only changed characteristics like tonality, soundstage and extension, but also dynamics/'slam' and I think this dynamic change had something to do with rolling tubes that synergize better/worse with certain headphones according to their varying power output.



Regardless, I think you will love how Infinity sound. I am still very much in love with Oblivion. With the Elekit combo, my NOS tubes haven't been quite burn in and the first few minutes of powering up the TU-8200, I hear pop and crackles. 20 mins into play and it goes silent. This is with all my NOS power tubes - GEC KT66, Philips Miniwatt 6CA7, RFT EL34 and also my drivers - Brimar 12au7 long plates and Philips Miniwatt 12au7. However with Oblivion, it's pure silence. Not a pop, hiss or crackle and the sound is gorgeous to my ears. Whether it's to my headphones or speakers.

I should be getting the Canadian maple leaf and Radiotron 807 in the next few days. It's on it's way with Australia Post.

If you really want to tube roll and experience the change in tone with change of tubes, you have to go the way of Odyssey.  Having said that, wait and experience for yourself with Infinity. You might be surprised. Nobody has heard it yet except Tomas and he's usually very quiet about praising how his amps sound. He leaves that to the customer to share their impressions.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> One more thing - for the others here would you mind to explain in your own words the function of the two smaller knobs on the front plate?


I think one is to switch between speakers and headphones and the other is the impedance switch.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> I think one is to switch between speakers and headphones and the other is the impedance switch.


What are the functions of all the toggle switches?


----------



## hpamdr

SonicTrance said:


> First Infinity for sale is now complete! @DecentLevi
> This one has the tube rolling add-on. Here with KT66's and 6J5G's


The picture are fantastic and this amp looks awesome. The work on the chassis is really professional looking 
I hope it sound as good as it looks.
I like the trimmers and the measuring point. I just have some small remarks (if the amp was for me):
- you should reverse measuring point in (toward front)/out (to the back)
- have 6j5 socket more in the front (but the big front vue-meter takes space) 
- will you replace embossed labels ?


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> What are the functions of all the toggle switches?


This is going off on my Oblivion...

Left switch is the speakers on / off switch. When it's on and you have the headphone jack plug in, both speakers and headphone are 'on'. Speakers off is self explanatory.

Right switch is the impedance switch - with headphone, switching it to the right, the sound is louder. Conversely switching it to the left, the sound is softer. Kind of a gain switch to me. 

Tomas can confirm it.


----------



## UntilThen

Now with the impedance switch to the right and volume at 9am, my LCD-3f is singing !!!

@paramesh this Oblivion is not for sale ! Both of my planar magnetic headphones have never sounded better.  

On switching over to the He1000se..... I've arrived at Nirvana.  

I miss @MrCurwen. Come back !


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> - will you replace embossed labels ?



I will trade in my goldfish and ask Tomas to have engraved labels instead.


----------



## UntilThen (Mar 14, 2021)

Eargasm with Yggdrasil > Oblivion > He1000se. I fear for Odyssey with it Sowters iron, Mundorf caps and Yamamoto sockets, that it might not keep up with Oblivion. 

Tomas do you think Odyssey will keep up with Oblivion? Both are 'O' ! 

I've ask Tomas to additionally include a switch behind, to toggle between xlr and rca input of Odyssey. xlr input is for Yggdrasil and rca input is for my turntable.

In his words...
_I can include a toggle switch at the back to select between RCA and XLR. That way you don't have to unplug anything.
Without the switch some signal would leak out the RCA inputs if you use the XLR for example._


----------



## DecentLevi (Mar 14, 2021)

Good point about having the 6J5 sockets a little closer towards the front, maybe that would be better for looks and heat dissipation but no biggie and it's already drilled in so I'll leave it. The bigger output tubes are on the outside maybe also looking a bit different but that's especially for heat dissipation. Hpamdr did you mean to reverse the in/out measuring points on the right side? For the Trimmer I'd rather have it towards the front. I'm a somewhat fast paced tube roller. I have no need to replace the embossed labels.

For the other question, we'll leave it to Tomas.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> I'm a somewhat fast paced tube roller. I have no need to replace the embossed labels.


Guess my goldfish is safe then because I'm a fast paced bowler (cricketer).


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> In his words...
> _I can include a toggle switch at the back to select between RCA and XLR. That way you don't have to unplug anything.
> Without the switch some signal would leak out the RCA inputs if you use the XLR for example._


When you plug your turntable, do you have a dedicated Phono input stage with transformer ?
I do not have any analog input since i switched to CD with my first Micromega Stage2 cd player. 

I personally do not like back switch except for input voltage selector. When you get your amp, you put it on a dedicated place where all fits well. But if you have new device and change location, the back manipulation start to be not as convenient. This is the case with my F.A. Euforia and a Dac both have power button on the back ant it start to be painful fiddling around in the back to turn on and off. I've never had any issues when both were on the top of my side rack.

This is why i prefer front or top switch where you always have some space for safe manipulation (unless you switch with Hot tubes).  But as all is custom, this is your choice !


----------



## UntilThen

I have a phono stage. The Elekit TU-8500 is a preamp / phono stage. I left my Avid Pellar phono stage back in Sydney with the Rega RP8. 

I did think about having the switch in the front but that will spoil the looks. Besides I don't think I'll be switching between the dac and turntable very often. Yggdrasil has it's power switch at the back.  

GOTL has the 6/12/25 volt switch behind. Some things we have to live with being put behind.


----------



## baronbeehive

WOW!! To Infinity.. and beyond.. in search of new civilizations, the starship enterprise never stays still.

Beautiful brushed aluminium front and perfectly complemented by matt black top and side plates.. what's not to like . I imagine it sounds as good as it looks, in which case it must sound awesome!

Lets have some impressions soon!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> WOW!! To Infinity.. and beyond.. in search of new civilizations, the starship enterprise never stays still.
> 
> Beautiful brushed aluminium front and perfectly complemented by matt black top and side plates.. what's not to like . I imagine it sounds as good as it looks, in which case it must sound awesome!



Tomas has an eye for aesthetics. I just read back his first conversation with me back in 27th Oct 2019. That fateful day when he ask me if I would review Oblivion if he send it to me. If that didn't happen, I would have miss out on the best part of my audio journey.

I now await to be surprise again with Odyssey and I know Tomas will surprise me. This is supposed to be my last amp. I had scout around for a custom amp builder and there were a few I had in mind. I was even contemplating an improved DNA Stratus that Donald told me in my private conversation with him but I decided that Tomas will build Odyssey for me. It will be the sequel to Oblivion. Well not quite. They are 2 very different amps.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> I have a phono stage. The Elekit TU-8500 is a preamp / phono stage. I left my Avid Pellar phono stage back in Sydney with the Rega RP8.
> 
> I did think about having the switch in the front but that will spoil the looks. Besides I don't think I'll be switching between the dac and turntable very often. Yggdrasil has it's power switch at the back.
> 
> GOTL has the 6/12/25 volt switch behind. Some things we have to live with being put behind.


I have the GOTL with the 6/12/25V switch in the back. Perhaps it looks better like that, but I would much rather have it in front because it is not possible to see it when the amp is on a rack, and it is also very difficult to reach it when the amp is rack mounted. Not to speak about burning yourself (OUCH!) reaching for the switch and tubes blown up because I forgot to look - no, make that feel, for the position of the switch.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> I have a phono stage. The Elekit TU-8500 is a preamp / phono stage. I left my Avid Pellar phono stage back in Sydney with the Rega RP8.
> 
> I did think about having the switch in the front but that will spoil the looks. Besides I don't think I'll be switching between the dac and turntable very often. Yggdrasil has it's power switch at the back.
> 
> GOTL has the 6/12/25 volt switch behind. Some things we have to live with being put behind.





mordy said:


> I have the GOTL with the 6/12/25V switch in the back. Perhaps it looks better like that, but I would much rather have it in front because it is not possible to see it when the amp is on a rack, and it is also very difficult to reach it when the amp is rack mounted. Not to speak about burning yourself (OUCH!) reaching for the switch and tubes blown up because I forgot to look - no, make that feel, for the position of the switch.


This is exactly the kind of technical/functional design done without taking care of different usage. This is what i also have in CTH both on/off switch and also 6.3/12.6 on the back... As i do not see the warning about heating voltage i've sometime over heated some tube fortunately seing glow very bright alert me... I finally added a small label warning of heating voltage...


----------



## Zachik

mordy said:


> I have the GOTL with the 6/12/25V switch in the back. Perhaps it looks better like that, but I would much rather have it in front because it is not possible to see it when the amp is on a rack, and it is also very difficult to reach it when the amp is rack mounted. Not to speak about burning yourself (OUCH!) reaching for the switch and tubes blown up because I forgot to look - no, make that feel, for the position of the switch.


Voltage switch in the back guarantees no accidents due to trying to change impedance, and by mistake switching to 25V and frying your 6SN7...


----------



## mordy

Zachik said:


> Voltage switch in the back guarantees no accidents due to trying to change impedance, and by mistake switching to 25V and frying your 6SN7...


The truth is that the GOTL will not turn on if you inserted a driver tube and applied the wrong voltage. However, this safety feature only works if do not use adapters.


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> Also this makes me curious - if the power output doesn't change much with tubes, does that in a way mean that tube rolling on this amp doesn't make quite as much a difference as with the likes of a traditional OTL amp? In many cases I recall tube rolling on other amps not only changed characteristics like tonality, soundstage and extension, but also dynamics/'slam' and I think this dynamic change had something to do with rolling tubes that synergize better/worse with certain headphones according to their varying power output.


Thanks for the kind words Levi!

Well, I was generalizing. Power output will change with different tubes but its not something you'll notice with headphone listening.
Since the bias current will stay the same, the power output will rely on available signal voltage swing. That swing is set by bias voltage (in peak to peak) x mu (gain) of the tube.
This amp will have plenty of power for headphones regardless of tube config. You will notice difference in sound from tube rolling.



DecentLevi said:


> One more thing - for the others here would you mind to explain in your own words the function of the two smaller knobs on the front plate?


The left knob is to select the speaker and pre-amp outputs and the right knob is the impedance switch.
The speaker/pre-amp switch has three positions: OFF/speaker/pre-amp
The impedance switch has also three positions: OFF/low/high



hpamdr said:


> - you should reverse measuring point in (toward front)/out (to the back)


Not a problem. To me that doesn't matter.



hpamdr said:


> - have 6j5 socket more in the front (but the big front vue-meter takes space)


Not possible without moving basically everything around. When I plan the layouts I do so with both aesthetics and wire management for least amount of noise/hum in mind. Personally, I like the layout as is.



hpamdr said:


> - will you replace embossed labels ?


It's the only type of label maker I have. I use it as it fits the retro theme of a tube amp. We don't have to use labels on your amp.

Regarding switches at the back. It's a matter of space also. Not everything will fit on the front panel. You could of course mount switches on the top plate as well.

Btw, @DecentLevi your amp has three different heater windings. Rather than paralleling all of them I kept them separate like this:
Output tubes: 5.4A
6J5 sockets: 3.8A
6SN7 socket: 2.5A


----------



## UntilThen (Mar 15, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> This is exactly the kind of technical/functional design done without taking care of different usage.



GOTL is a custom amp and one can always discussed with Glenn where you want those switches - if that is possible though because as Tomas say, space constraints in the front and layout of wiring, etc.

As a matter of fact, very few will sit their GOTL on the higher shelf of tall rack. Understand that some will but as I said, custom amp means you can discussed with the amp builder your requests to see if it's possible.

Anyway I'm digressing here as it's not the GOTL thread. I guess we are just using that as an example.



SonicTrance said:


> Not possible without moving basically everything around. When I plan the layouts I do so with both aesthetics and wire management for least amount of noise/hum in mind. Personally, I like the layout as is.



I like the Levi's Infinity layout too so I'll nod in total agreement.  It looks great. I wouldn't change a thing. I know you plan through and give a lot of thought to the layout before the actual build commence.



SonicTrance said:


> It's the only type of label maker I have. I use it as it fits the retro theme of a tube amp. We don't have to use labels on your amp.
> 
> Regarding switches at the back. It's a matter of space also. Not everything will fit on the front panel. You could of course mount switches on the top plate as well.



I was kidding of course with the label marker when I chip in to Hpamdr's suggestion. To me that is very minor. Other amp builders does that too. To look really good, one has to pay a lot to have it engraved and I can't see the necessity for that.

I won't have anymore switches in the front apart from the 3 knobs and 2 meters. Simplicity in looks is the key for me and aesthetics is important when you're paying for a custom amp. In any case, Odyssey will sit on the top of the low shelf, where every switches is easily accessible. I think about ergonomics in my music setup too.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> First Infinity for sale is now complete! @DecentLevi
> This one has the tube rolling add-on. Here with KT66's and 6J5G's



Had another look at the Infinity and it's stunning and very attractive.  I would have been proud to own that amp.


----------



## DecentLevi

Thank you! Originally I wanted a light blue chassis but I happily accepted after I saw a mock-up of a silver front plate on a black chassis. It resembles a vintage feel, and very classic design yet still modern I would say


----------



## hpamdr

SonicTrance said:


> Regarding switches at the back. It's a matter of space also. Not everything will fit on the front panel. You could of course mount switches on the top plate as well.


In infinity no switch on the back so for me this is perfect ! The criticism for design is not for you as i have not seen any issue with your amplifier. It was more for commercial product where you have back switch, missing info,...

The look of infinity is really great and I'm pretty sure it sound very gorgeous !

I'm just jealous as I've to wait to get the first picture of my eternity with all the plugs, transformer, switches, trim, knob, socket placement back, top, front.

About label it is not an issue for me, i will replace (or not) with printed one on transparent film or just write with a silver pen.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> I'm just jealous as I've to wait to get the first picture of my eternity with all the plugs, transformer, switches, trim, knob, socket placement back, top, front.



Waiting is not a problem for me. As long as I get my amp before Christmas and not on the 23rd of Dec again.  That's the date I got Oblivion... 2019 I think. Realistically I expect Odyssey in July / August 2021.

Oblivion and Elekit combo is keeping me very satisfied, Plus I can burn in my NOS tubes while listening to music while waiting for my build to commence.


----------



## DecentLevi

Tomas really likes the EL39 as well as KT66 on mine, and said it's a silent background.


----------



## hpamdr

I also like a lot EL39 it look so nice and pair also very well with most of the tube i have and specially EL11.


----------



## SonicTrance

These are also very nice, Telefunken EL12 spez. 









hpamdr said:


> I also like a lot EL39 it look so nice and pair also very well with most of the tube i have and specially EL11.


The EL11's Levi sent me was very microphonic. Not sure if it was the dual EL11 -> 6SN7 adapter or the tubes though..


----------



## hpamdr

SonicTrance said:


> These are also very nice, Telefunken EL12 spez.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had some issue with dual adapter from X'g, and if you have microphonic noise specially due to vibration you can use silicone damper. It ialso possible mount socket with silicone/rubber silentblock to decouple a bit.. 

Did you also tested EL3N in input ?


----------



## UntilThen

I'm getting excited now. I have dedicated sockets for EL11. Go EL12 spez ! How about some KT88, EL34 or KT77 ?

EL156 ?  

Plonk in a KT150.


----------



## SonicTrance

hpamdr said:


> I had some issue with dual adapter from X'g, and if you have microphonic noise specially due to vibration you can use silicone damper. It ialso possible mount socket with silicone/rubber silentblock to decouple a bit..


I don't like those dual adapters at all. The best adapter is no adapter! 


hpamdr said:


> Did you also tested EL3N in input ?


I didn't as I don't have the adapter for it, unfortunately. 



UntilThen said:


> I'm getting excited now. I have dedicated sockets for EL11. Go EL12 spez ! How about some KT88, EL34 or KT77 ?
> 
> EL156 ?
> 
> Plonk in a KT150.


Haha, I would if I had the tubes on hand. Maybe you can send me some?


----------



## UntilThen

@hpamdr  is this the correct EL39? 
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/La-Radiotechnique-EL39-NOS-Valve-Tubes/265079940208

Tell me now because my finger is on the buy button !


----------



## UntilThen

Done. Looks NOS alright.

What adapter to get for this?


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Haha, I would if I had the tubes on hand. Maybe you can send me some?


I'll send you a pair of KT150 for Odyssey... in due time.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Done. Looks NOS alright.
> 
> What adapter to get for this?


Looks nice! =)


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Looks nice! =)


It is and I would not have bought a pair of EL39 tubes if you didn't say it's good. This is the RT brand that Colin @hypnos1 raved about. He has always claim that these are better than the earlier Philips red base EL39.

.... and for me to have supposedly given up on tubes to dive back deep in again... that's a miracle..... or a disaster.  

Now MrsXuLing has provided me a link to those adapters.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/201671202393


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Now MrsXuLing has provided me a link to those adapters.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/201671202393


Yep, those are the ones!


----------



## hpamdr (Mar 15, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> @hpamdr  is this the correct EL39?
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/La-Radiotechnique-EL39-NOS-Valve-Tubes/265079940208
> 
> Tell me now because my finger is on the buy button !


Yes, It is the right ones !
But probably to late, this is an official dealer sales@chelmervalve.com you should contact them before buying with eBay...

For adapter, you should ask to @Deyan to do an EL39 to EL34 adapter: The cap for EL39 is the same as el32 and smaller than EL12Sp or 807
EL39 :  NC  H1 NC g2 g1 g3 H2  K   + CAP
EL34 :  g3   H1  A  g2 g1 NC H2  K

from socket to base: wire    2->2,  *anode Cap -> 3*,   4->4,  5->5,  *6->1*, 7->7, 8->8


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> Yes, It is the right ones !
> But probably to late, this is an official dealer sales@chelmervalve.com you should contact them before buying with eBay...
> 
> For adapter, you should ask to @Deyan to do an EL39 to EL34 adapter: The cap for EL39 is the same as el32 and smaller than EL12Sp or 807
> ...



It's ok Chris. It's done and dusted. The link which I posted on the EL39 tubes are from Chelmervalve. Have a look at the link again. I have just bought a pair of 'RT' branded EL39 NOS NIB from chelmervalve.

As for the 4654K EL39 TO EL34 tube converter adapter, I've just paid for a pair of those from the chinese ebay seller. The link is above.


----------



## UntilThen

This pair of EL39 tubes is getting close in price to the GEC KT77 and Tung Sol 6550 1960s that I will be getting..... 

It will be interesting to see how they compare.


----------



## UntilThen

MrsXuLing told me that EL38 tubes can use the EL39 to EL34 adapters too but EL39 tubes cannot use the EL38 to EL34 adapters. They obviously know what they are talking about. 

63 of the EL39 to EL34 adapters have been sold. Who's been using these tubes? 

I might as well get a pair of Mullard EL38 from Langrex. All in the name of tube rolling as Gibosi would say to me in the past.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Now MrsXuLing has provided me a link to those adapters.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/201671202393



Normally EL38 need specific adapter as g3 (pin1) should be linked to pin 1 and pin 6 is not used (like EL34), if she additionally wired 1 and 6 from the EL39 and then 1 to 1, all is OK to use EL38 on EL39 adapter (so 2 adapters for the price of 1 
You should ask her if she can can build some with teflon socket ?


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> It is and I would not have bought a pair of EL39 tubes if you didn't say it's good. This is the RT brand that Colin @hypnos1 raved about. He has always claim that these are better than the earlier Philips red base EL39.
> 
> .... and for me to have supposedly given up on tubes to dive back deep in again... that's a miracle..... or a disaster.
> 
> ...


Is there any particular advantage to tubes with anode caps? I find them a bit unsightly but if they can add sonic prowess perhaps I should adjust my aesthetic sensibilities.


----------



## SonicTrance

LoryWiv said:


> Is there any particular advantage to tubes with anode caps? I find them a bit unsightly but if they can add sonic prowess perhaps I should adjust my aesthetic sensibilities.


Tubes with anode caps can often handle a huge amount of anode voltage. So they move the anode from the tube base to the top to prevent arcing in the socket.


----------



## mordy

LoryWiv said:


> Is there any particular advantage to tubes with anode caps? I find them a bit unsightly but if they can add sonic prowess perhaps I should adjust my aesthetic sensibilities.


Tubes that require anode caps aren't as popular as tubes without, and you will most likely require special adapters. The advantage is that often tubes with the anode caps are older than their equivalents without anode caps, and many times older is better when it comes to tubes. The other advantage is that the price usually is much lower than equivalent tubes w/o the caps.
One disadvantage is that the anode wire sometimes picks up electric interference, but through trial and error you may be able to eliminate or reduce the interference.
Do they sound better? Sometimes yes but as always, it is a matter of synergy etc.


----------



## DecentLevi

@SonicTrance just out of curiosity for comparison, do you mind to mention which RCA cables, DAC/source and headphones you're usually using when listening to your amps?


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> @SonicTrance just out of curiosity for comparison, do you mind to mention which RCA cables, DAC/source and headphones you're usually using when listening to your amps?


I'm using supra cables (Swedish brand), Little Dot DAC_3 and Tidal HiFi from PC. Headphones are LCD-3 and LCD-XC's. The XC's are great to test for noise as they're very sensitive.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Tubes with anode caps can often handle a huge amount of anode voltage. So they move the anode from the tube base to the top to prevent arcing in the socket.


This is the only valid reason for my wanting top anode cap.

Apart from that 2 top anode caps has its appeal and I think they look lovely.

I am even thinking of the GEC TT21 now. 🤗


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I'm using supra cables (Swedish brand), Little Dot DAC_3 and Tidal HiFi from PC. Headphones are LCD-3 and LCD-XC's. The XC's are great to test for noise as they're very sensitive.


Love Audeze planars. My LCD-3f is rotated with He1000se regularly.

They are very different tone wise. Next and last headphone is a Utopia.


----------



## Zachik

mordy said:


> One disadvantage is that the anode wire sometimes picks up electric interference, but through trial and error you may be able to eliminate or reduce the interference.


That is exactly my personal experience (with adapters for Lyr 3 and CTH amps).
I got 2 different adapters, including 1 from Head-Fier who used it to his satisfaction on his CTH, and still - mine is VERY noisy. Tried everything, and gave up on that eventually! YMMV...


----------



## hpamdr

Zachik said:


> That is exactly my personal experience (with adapters for Lyr 3 and CTH amps).
> I got 2 different adapters, including 1 from Head-Fier who used it to his satisfaction on his CTH, and still - mine is VERY noisy. Tried everything, and gave up on that eventually! YMMV...


CTH is by essence a bit noisy, specially through heating circuit and grounding not being the best. Anode cap (EL38/EL39/...) is normally less sensible to RFI than grid cap (6J7).  What is weird with cap wire is that length of the cable have also some impact like for antenna.


----------



## UntilThen (Mar 16, 2021)

I have never had noise issues with EL32, EL12 spez and 6F8G. In fact those tubes in my amps are so quiet, it's a pleasure to use them. Now I've just received 2 pairs of 807 for Elekit TU8200 and Odyssey. I'll post some pictures when I have fired them up. These are brand new and have not been used.

I'll post it in the tube rolling thread.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> I have never had noise issues with EL32, EL12 spez and 6F8G. In fact those tubes in my amps are so quiet, it's a pleasure to use them. Now I've just received 2 pairs of 807 for Elekit TU8200 and Odyssey. I'll post some pictures when I have fired them up. These are brand new and have not been used.
> 
> I'll post it in the tube rolling thread.


Must be the clean Australian electricity because you never reported any EMI/RFI problems!
Other people aren’t as lucky and have to struggle to find the offending source of the noise.


----------



## Zachik

hpamdr said:


> CTH is by essence a bit noisy, specially through heating circuit and grounding not being the best. *Anode cap (EL38/EL39/...) is normally less sensible to RFI than grid cap (6J7).*  What is weird with cap wire is that length of the cable have also some impact like for antenna.


Interesting!!! The tube type I have had very bad experience with was 6F8G in 6922 (CTH) and 6SN7 (Lyr 3) sockets (with appropriate adapters).
As mentioned, other people WITH SAME ADAPTER had good results. I live in a condo in downtown, so maybe my RF and other interference is off the charts?
BTW, the 6F8G tube is identical to 6SN7 (or 2 x 6J5) with the first triode's grid (g1) being the top cap. So, I guess it is half 6J7 and half 6J5...


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Must be the clean Australian electricity because you never reported any EMI/RFI problems!
> Other people aren’t as lucky and have to struggle to find the offending source of the noise.



I agree. Not all places in Australia are problem free with EMI/RFI problems but I happened to live in 2 places where I'm not plagued by such issues. I can even place my iPhone right next to the amp or have the amp right next to the router and I have no such problems.

My sympathies to those who are struggling because top anode tubes or tubes with good adapters with no noise is as good as their 'normal' cousin tubes... if not better.



Zachik said:


> Interesting!!! The tube type I have had very bad experience with was 6F8G in 6922 (CTH) and 6SN7 (Lyr 3) sockets (with appropriate adapters).
> As mentioned, other people WITH SAME ADAPTER had good results. I live in a condo in downtown, so maybe my RF and other interference is off the charts?
> BTW, the 6F8G tube is identical to 6SN7 (or 2 x 6J5) with the first triode's grid (g1) being the top cap. So, I guess it is half 6J7 and half 6J5...



Here's my monster Radiotron 807 brand new with made in Hong Kong adapters. Tubes have just started burning in since yesterday. Initially in the first few hours of burning in, there's some rustle noise, like fire hissing but that went away after 3 hours of non stop music. It can only improved with further burn in - I reckon 150 hours would be good. This brand of 807 that is Made in Australia, is very well made. Top anode cap and the pins are gold plated, I doubt the it's actual gold lol. Base are tight and glass is thick. This is suppose to be electrically equivalent to the very powerful 6L6 favoured in guitar amps and the sound shows it.

When I first listen to it after 30 mins of warming up, it sounded like... well let me give an analogy. The 1st hour it sounded like Atticus, warm and bass prominent with not much of details in the top end. It's there but just not as much. After 3 hours, it sounded like Eikon. It became more linear, top end sparkle is there, mid range projected to my ears just right and bass is dialed back, becoming tight and controlled. It has a slightly 'fuller', more body to the tone than the EL12 spez, which I really enjoy. I think I stumbled upon the much cheaper 807 and it has my respect. I haven't even tried the other pair of Sylvania 807 maple leaf from Canada. There's a white ceramic base Cossor 807 sold by Langrex which I will buy later.

There she is, such a beauty. If not for the socket saver, it wouldn't be that tall. Surprisingly the adapters from MrsXuling are very well made and appears to use silver wire.


----------



## UntilThen

Just sat through 3 of my familiar songs with the tube compliments of Brimar 12au7 long plates and Radiotron 807 in the  Elekit TU-8200. Yggdrasil and Audeze LCD-3f on duty using Tidal HiFi streaming.

Metallica 'Nothing Else Matters' - When the drum kicks in, the impact is gorgeous. Up the volume and it hits you in the chest. Oh yeah.

Fourplay '101 Eastbound' - Oh my gosh, have I heard this song better?

Joe Bonamassa 'I'll play the blues for you' (live) - I was literally swaying in my office chair in my room at 5:34 am in the morning. Up the volume and I believe I can play and sing like Joe !   

At 7:15 am I'll attend a Hiit class and then shower and go to work... life's good and I don't even own any LG goods.  I just can't wait to get home at the end of the day, to sample 807 more !


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Just sat through 3 of my familiar songs with the tube compliments of Brimar 12au7 long plates and Radiotron 807 in the  Elekit TU-8200. Yggdrasil and Audeze LCD-3f on duty using Tidal HiFi streaming.
> 
> Metallica 'Nothing Else Matters' - When the drum kicks in, the impact is gorgeous. Up the volume and it hits you in the chest. Oh yeah.
> 
> ...


The question is: Can you apply Hiit to tube burn in? Are there any shortcuts?


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> The question is: Can you apply Hiit to tube burn in? Are there any shortcuts?


Yes! It's High Intensity Interval Turning or Burning and I'm going now ! **


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Yes! It's High Intensity Interval Turning or Burning and I'm going now ! **


There are two schools of thought for burn-in: 
1) Leave the tube in for a couple days
2) Use the tube with music up to 8 hours and then shut it off and continue the next day.
I don't know which method is better.
I also noticed that often new tubes run hotter compared to when they are burned in.


----------



## DecentLevi (Mar 17, 2021)

SonicTrance said:


> I'm using supra cables (Swedish brand), Little Dot DAC_3 and Tidal HiFi from PC. Headphones are LCD-3 and LCD-XC's. The XC's are great to test for noise as they're very sensitive.


Not too shabby of a system there. And those Swedish Supra RCA cables look like heavyweight performers for a low price, right? I'm using a Neotech NEI-2001 cable with Neotech NER-OCC GD RCA connectors. Much thanks to advice from @hypnos1 , as he said this Neotech UP-OCC (single / mono crystal Ultra Pure Ohno Continuous Cast silver), can be considered as the best wire in existence for electron transfer. I got a hobbyist to put mine together wired in a special way for $550 including a modest fee, the connectors alone costed 'only' $240. The sound is no comparison to any cable I put it against.




Tidal is cool since it's lossless. One small tip however is you can get even better sound from your PC with a DDC / 'Audio bridge'. These go between the PC's USB output and DAC to regenerate and convert the digital signal into another format such as HDMI or BNC which can be a better connection type depending on your DAC. I'm using the Audio-GD DI-20 DDC and the newest firmware upgrade made a significant improvement, in fact overtaking my dedicated CD transport (confirmed with multiple tests). Those headphones are great but I'm leaning in a different direction. Still a nice system. And in due time I'll see how much difference my Infinity makes with this setup.


----------



## hpamdr (Mar 17, 2021)

DecentLevi said:


> Not too shabby of a system there. And those Swedish Supra RCA cables look like heavyweight performers for a low price, right? I'm using a Neotech NEI-2001 cable with Neotech NER-OCC GD RCA connectors. Much thanks to advice from @hypnos1 , as he said this Neotech UP-OCC (single / mono crystal Ultra Pure Ohno Continuous Cast silver), can be considered as the best wire in existence for electron transfer. I got a hobbyist to put mine together wired in a special way for $550 including a modest fee, the connectors alone costed 'only' $240. The sound is no comparison to any cable I put it against.
> 
> 
> Tidal is cool since it's lossless. One small tip however is you can get even better sound from your PC with a DDC / 'Audio bridge'. These go between the PC's USB output and DAC to regenerate and convert the digital signal into another format such as HDMI or BNC which can be a better connection type depending on your DAC. I'm using the Audio-GD DI-20 DDC and the newest firmware upgrade made a significant improvement, in fact overtaking my dedicated CD transport (confirmed with multiple tests). Those headphones are great but I'm leaning in a different direction. Still a nice system. And in due time I'll see how much difference my Infinity makes with this setup.


I'm personally a cable agnostic, i did many test in audio shop and most of the time I've trapped the seller switching cable and announcing wrong name... PsychoAcoustic  have a real impact specially with cables.
About usb, if the usb input of your DAC is well built and with galvanic isolation and reclock, you do not need to add external stuff.  If you want to feed with AES or I2S it could be a good alternative. I'm currently testing Rpi4 and pi2AES with my Soekris DAC i'm quite pleased with AES except for DSD playback. I'm old fashoned and do not use any online service for music except Linn Radio. So no need for PC or any powerfull music streamer..


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> There are two schools of thought for burn-in:
> 1) Leave the tube in for a couple days
> 2) Use the tube with music up to 8 hours and then shut it off and continue the next day.
> I don't know which method is better.
> I also noticed that often new tubes run hotter compared to when they are burned in.



I am more the 2nd school of thought but I can't listen for 8 hours a day because I work.  If I get 4 hours a day, I'm happy. Radiotron 807 has changed in tone even more after 6 hours. Almost totally silent now and tone is very linear with great articulation. I'm just wondering why these are so much cheaper compared to the GEC KT66. $100 vs $550. GEC KT66 is not 5 times better.

To my ears they are both equally good. Even compared to EL12 spez. EL39 and adapters have been send out and it will be interesting when that is thrown into the fray. I've not been so excited with tubes for a very long time.


----------



## mordy

hpamdr said:


> I'm personally a cable agnostic, i did many test in audio shop and most of the time I've trapped the seller switching cable and announcing wrong name... PsychoAcoustic  have a real impact specially with cables.
> About usb, if the usb input of your DAC is well built and with galvanic isolation and reclock, you do not need to add external stuff.  If you want to feed with AES or I2S it could be a good alternative. I'm currently testing Rpi4 and pi2AES with my Soekris DAC i'm quite pleased with AES except for DSD playback. I'm old fashoned and do not use any online service for music except Linn Radio. So no need for PC or any powerfull music streamer..


I am old school too but I found that I can get a free version of Spotify - at least the ads are in HD lol. I am also using iTunes for my CD collection.


----------



## hypnos1

UntilThen said:


> This is the only valid reason for my wanting top anode cap.
> 
> Apart from that 2 top anode caps has its appeal and I think they look lovely.
> 
> I am even thinking of the GEC TT21 now. 🤗



Hi UT. Despite now being fully Chord-converted, I'd certainly otherwise be looking at one of ST's amps...I am however at least enjoying it vicariously via folks' experiences here lol . And yes, I count the RT EL39 as my best find ever...until your current thought processes!...ie. the GEC TT21 version of the famous KT88 (or for less, the 12V TT2*2* version). But for a tiny fraction of their cost, the Russian Military GU50 (12V) is easily their match IMHO (and more so as far as JAC Music are concerned). And dualed with a TT21/22 easily the best performance at my tube departure (driven by GU50s also).

Good luck M with your own foray into these interesting looking amps, and apologies to all for even more 'tube talk' here!


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 17, 2021)

mordy said:


> I am old school too but I found that I can get a free version of Spotify - at least the ads are in HD lol. I am also using iTunes for my CD collection.


Me too! Cable agnostic, and, agnostic in general. But I do have some good cables...  just in case! Even USB digital cables. Should really be no difference when sending a digital signal due to the error recovery at the receiving end but the cable insulation handling on the power line will affect the signal in any case.

Yes if you are really quick and concentrating hard you can switch tracks on Spotify free before the annoying ads lol.

Oh and I wouldn't trust the cloud with my music, I also have everything in iTunes, although it has been annoying lately with yet another bug in the software. All my music is Apple Lossless, equivelent to FLAC and easily convertable should that be necessary.


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 17, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I am more the 2nd school of thought but I can't listen for 8 hours a day because I work.  If I get 4 hours a day, I'm happy. Radiotron 807 has changed in tone even more after 6 hours. Almost totally silent now and tone is very linear with great articulation. I'm just wondering why these are so much cheaper compared to the GEC KT66. $100 vs $550. GEC KT66 is not 5 times better.


Yes if you are very cunning there are still some undiscovered tube types that are exactly the same as the expensive ones but are more unfamiliar in the forums and  hence cheap! For example I use Amperex on my APPJ, people pay fortunes for the bugle boy but others, for example Amperex Hammond are just as good and exactly the same, apart from that bugle etching, and a liberal dose of snake oil missing from them!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> At 7:15 am I'll attend a Hiit class and then shower and go to work... life's good and I don't even own any LG goods.  I just can't wait to get home at the end of the day, to sample 807 more !


 A HIIT class.. BEFORE work! Very admirable, I do these regularly on my bike, but only when there is no possibility of work interfering .


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 17, 2021)

DecentLevi said:


> Not too shabby of a system there. And those Swedish Supra RCA cables look like heavyweight performers for a low price, right? I'm using a Neotech NEI-2001 cable with Neotech NER-OCC GD RCA connectors. Much thanks to advice from @hypnos1 , as he said this Neotech UP-OCC (single / mono crystal Ultra Pure Ohno Continuous Cast silver), can be considered as the best wire in existence for electron transfer.



I think Neotech are excellent. I've used the OCC copper and I've just put in some OCC silver output wires inside my Little Dot amp At some point I will be looking to make up a headphone cable out of OCC silver and gold., but as I said I'm a cable agnostic so that my never get done..


----------



## Zachik

mordy said:


> I am old school too but I found that I can get a free version of Spotify - at least the ads are in HD lol. I am also using iTunes for my CD collection.


@mordy - you can get free HD streaming ad-free for 3 months: https://www.deezer.com/us/offers/hifi
I do not have personal experience, and will probably try it once my 1-year Tidal subscription runs out


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT. Despite now being fully Chord-converted, I'd certainly otherwise be looking at one of ST's amps...I am however at least enjoying it vicariously via folks' experiences here lol . And yes, I count the RT EL39 as my best find ever...until your current thought processes!...ie. the GEC TT21 version of the famous KT88 (or for less, the 12V TT2*2* version). But for a tiny fraction of their cost, the Russian Military GU50 (12V) is easily their match IMHO (and more so as far as JAC Music are concerned). And dualed with a TT21/22 easily the best performance at my tube departure (driven by GU50s also).
> 
> Good luck M with your own foray into these interesting looking amps, and apologies to all for even more 'tube talk' here!



Hi H, it's good to hear from you again. I didn't think I'd get back into tubes again after I sold off GOTL and Studio Six with most of my tubes and kept Oblivion. After 4 years of tubes, I was ready to leave it. Unfortunately I chanced upon a very inexpensive Elekit TU-8200 and later a TU-8500. Then I plunge right back into tubes.   Once I'm in, I tried to get only NOS NIB ones. I was so intrigued by what I hear from the Elekit combo, that I decided I will have a custom made amp using those tubes and more. That started me on countless message with Tomas and I can sense he was just as interested in building Odyssey.

Someone in the Elekit thread a while ago, was rolling lots of power tubes in the TU-8200. It caught my eye when he said that Telefunken EL12 spez was one of the best he had tried. He also mentioned GEC KT66 and GEC TT21, especially the latter. He mentioned that the GEC TT21 is the top anode equivalent of the GEC KT88. Looks like I have to verify it myself.

What amp builder thread wouldn't have tube talks?  It's like talking about cars and disassociating the engines.  

What's ST's amps? 

Anyway enjoy the Chord but I am sure after a while you'll be back into tubes.  Matter of fact, I did spend 2 hours at Minidisc, listening to Chord Hugo TT2 + M'Scalar + Auris Nirvana + Susvara. Impressed? Yes definitely but it can be done cheaper and hence Odyssey with Yggdrasil.... and my headphones which will have one more addition I'm sure.

Cheers, take care H and come often to talk to me about tubes, tube amps.... and bring @connieflyer with you.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> A HIIT class.. BEFORE work! Very admirable, I do these regularly on my bike, but only when there is no possibility of work interfering .



The next thing I have to get back into is my Specialized Roubaix. I used to ride the Tour De France !!!


----------



## DecentLevi (Mar 18, 2021)

Hey guys, long technical post here. It was meant for Tomas (@SonicTrance ) but I thought I'd post it here to help understanding of functions.

Adjusting the bias. For example:
"_EL39: -10.0_" All of these have a "*-*". Does that mean it's a negative voltage on my Volt Meter?

Since 6SN7 and 6J5 inputs both have a separate transformer, will the input bias adjustment change both input transformers at the same time?

Would it be likely to hurt anything if my adjustments are off by one volt? Some tube types differ by just around 1 volt on the bias chart so it may be easier to keep the voltage the same between changing similar tube types that differ by only that much. I can still adjust each time though.

How do I know when a tube is going bad? About how far off the usual mA mark would the meter have to drift before I should stop using it?

I re-read the bias adjustment section of the user manual again. So adjust to voltage with an external Volt Meter without tubes according to the value shown on the chart of the tube I want to roll, then turn it off and wait a few min. and power back up with tubes... But then "_You can now fine tune the bias while watching the mA meters so it is set just right."_ So after it starts up the voltage may drift a little and I can turn the knob a bit with the Volt Meter still connected to make sure again it's still set to the right voltage per that tube?

Per the selector and impedance knobs:
_The left knob is to select the speaker and pre-amp outputs and the right knob is the impedance switch.
- The speaker/pre-amp switch has three positions: OFF/speaker/pre-amp
- The impedance switch has also three positions: OFF/low/high_

also:

_You will be able to choose which outputs are activated at the same time. The only outputs that can't be on simultaneously is speaker and pre-out as they're on the same switch._

If I understand correctly, I can have headphones on high or low gain with either the speaker or pre-amp that's selected on the left knob, or with those off, correct? That's just like I requested so I can essentially run a second amp in series via the output like if I have two people listening; or solo either of the external or headphone to see if it yields better sound. And left knob position is "off" on both, same as the general manual?


----------



## hypnos1 (Mar 19, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Hi H, it's good to hear from you again. I didn't think I'd get back into tubes again after I sold off GOTL and Studio Six with most of my tubes and kept Oblivion. After 4 years of tubes, I was ready to leave it. Unfortunately I chanced upon a very inexpensive Elekit TU-8200 and later a TU-8500. Then I plunge right back into tubes.   Once I'm in, I tried to get only NOS NIB ones. I was so intrigued by what I hear from the Elekit combo, that I decided I will have a custom made amp using those tubes and more. That started me on countless message with Tomas and I can sense he was just as interested in building Odyssey.
> 
> Someone in the Elekit thread a while ago, was rolling lots of power tubes in the TU-8200. It caught my eye when he said that Telefunken EL12 spez was one of the best he had tried. He also mentioned GEC KT66 and GEC TT21, especially the latter. He mentioned that the GEC TT21 is the top anode equivalent of the GEC KT88. Looks like I have to verify it myself.
> 
> ...



Ah UT...the bug sure did find a permanent home in you no?! What a journey you've had already so far...and it's led you here to _SonicTrance's_ (ST's? ) creations. I too have been interested in the Elekit range for quite a long while but never got round to it (far too busy hunting and converting 'alternative' tubes that might just blow up my amp lol!! ).

And yes indeed, I know some folks are not quite so 'into' much tube talk but you're right, their influence in _any_ amp using them must surely be very pertinent, even in the designs here where they apparently have a much lesser role? And so I'm looking forward to how your different tubes perform in your upcoming Odyssey...especially the TT21??!! 

As for me, I could possibly find myself slipping back down that ol' rabbit hole at some time, but although I agree the TT2/m-scaler combo isn't cheap, given the (vital) quality of supporting peripheral system I've finally managed to build I am more than happy..._for now!_...(especially since the game-changing Antipodes DX usurped the Naim UnitiCore). But perhaps my own 'Odyssey' is not yet over after all..._who knows?! _I wish you all the very best with yours...CHEERS...CJ


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> And yes indeed, I know some folks are not quite so 'into' much tube talk but you're right, their influence in _any_ amp using them must surely be very pertinent, even in the designs here where they apparently have a much lesser role? And so I'm looking forward to how your different tubes perform in your upcoming Odyssey...especially the TT21??!!


ST - SonicTrance  I was wondering what's ST.

Tomas is building for me Odyssey based on old school amp design, using Sowter UK custom order transformers, Mundorf caps and Yamamoto sockets. This is different from his other amp design and tube will influence the sound... a lot. 

I'm debating whether I should get the GEC TT21 since I'll be buying the GEC KT88. No point duplicating there.

Today is a milestone for Odyssey. Tomas has placed the order for the 3 transformers - one power and two output transformers. 

I do hope you will get back into tubes at some point. We'll have a lot to talk about then.


----------



## SonicTrance (Mar 18, 2021)

DecentLevi said:


> Adjusting the bias. For example:
> "_EL39: -10.0_" All of these have a "*-*". Does that mean it's a negative voltage on my Volt Meter?


Yes! The voltages you measure on those terminals will be (-)negative.



DecentLevi said:


> Since 6SN7 and 6J5 inputs both have a separate transformer, will the input bias adjustment change both input transformers at the same time?


It's the heaters that are separate. But yes, the "IN" adjustment will change all input sockets at the same time. Remember that you cannot have have them all populated at once. Either the 6SN7 socket or the 6J5 sockets can have tubes in them at the same time.



DecentLevi said:


> Would it be likely to hurt anything if my adjustments are off by one volt?


Yes! One volt is a lot. Especially if it's too high. Too high negative voltage means a lower number. A lower number is "higher" since it's closer to zero volts.



DecentLevi said:


> How do I know when a tube is going bad? About how far off the usual mA mark would the meter have to drift before I should stop using it?


There's no rule regarding that. Say you have a output tube that runs fine at 40mA (like it should). Then suddenly it's at 50-55mA. That's not good. Get rid of it. When you first start the amp the tube will draw higher current. So, if you set them at 40mA they might be at say 36-38mA an hour later. That's fine and you don't have to adjust anything at that point. Just leave it. Otherwise they might draw too much current at next startup when they're cold again.



DecentLevi said:


> I re-read the bias adjustment section of the user manual again. So adjust to voltage with an external Volt Meter without tubes according to the value shown on the chart of the tube I want to roll, then turn it off and wait a few min. and power back up with tubes... But then "_You can now fine tune the bias while watching the mA meters so it is set just right."_ So after it starts up the voltage may drift a little and I can turn the knob a bit with the Volt Meter still connected to make sure again it's still set to the right voltage per that tube?


The voltage doesn't drift. You should start with a voltage that's lower than my measured voltages. So, for the EL39 you can start with -10.5V (instead of 10.0V) without the tubes installed. Then power off, and wait few minutes. Power on with tubes in. Wait for them to heat up by looking at the mA panel meters on the amp. They will read slightly lower than 40mA at that point. Then you can fine tune the current by adjusting the knobs and looking at the mA meters. No need for the volt meter to be connected the second time you start the amp (with tubes).
I have connected the trimmers so that when you turn them clockwise it increases the current to the tubes.



DecentLevi said:


> If I understand correctly, I can have headphones on high or low gain with either the speaker or pre-amp that's selected on the left knob, or with those off, correct?


Correct!



DecentLevi said:


> That's just like I requested so I can essentially run a second amp in series via the output like if I have two people listening; or solo either of the external or headphone to see if it yields better sound. And left knob position is "off" on both, same as the general manual?


Correct again! =)


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> The next thing I have to get back into is my Specialized Roubaix. I used to ride the Tour De France !!!



Really, are you kidding? I kid myself that I am in the Tour de France when riding up a very steep hill near me without getting off, but my ride is over after less than an hour. The Tour De France guys spend 3 weeks on their bikes with only one rest day per week I think.

Did you really ride the Tour de France? I love watching it on TV for the fantastic scenery.. and the fact that I don't have to exert myself from my armchair .


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 18, 2021)

@DecentLevi As well as the current from tubes, emission tests will show how a tube ages. For example 100%/40%. First percentage is the normal test on full heater voltage. The second percentage is more stringent test done under reduced heater voltage – designed to assess the aging of the valve. A new valve will should perform up to 100% on this test but tends to reduce as the valve ages. However, as long as the first reading is close to 100% the valve will normally continue to produce good results under normal operating conditions so is not a major concern of failure.

As well as that popping or static.. *and explosions..* on a tube can point to failure so there's several things to watch out for.


----------



## mordy

baronbeehive said:


> Really, are you kidding? I kid myself that I am in the Tour de France when riding up a very steep hill near me without getting off, but my ride is over after less than an hour. The Tour De France guys spend 3 weeks on their bikes with only one rest day per week I think.
> 
> Did you really ride the Tour de France? I love watching it on TV for the fantastic scenery.. and the fact that I don't have to exert myself from my armchair .


UT is just kidding - maybe the hills on North Head.


----------



## baronbeehive

mordy said:


> UT is just kidding - maybe the hills on North Head.


Haha! He keeps a good straight face. I think it is far too cold on those mountains for an Aussie!


----------



## Magol79

@SonicTrance 

Any chance that you can show us a mock-up or sketch of the Eternity? 
I am very interested in this model.

Good luck with your exciting work on the new amps. This is quite an entertaining thread to follow.


----------



## hypnos1

UntilThen said:


> ST - SonicTrance  I was wondering what's ST.
> 
> Tomas is building for me Odyssey based on old school amp design, using Sowter UK custom order transformers, Mundorf caps and Yamamoto sockets. This is different from his other amp design and tube will influence the sound... a lot.
> 
> ...



Give me a break UT...between you and @mordy my long yearned-for 'age of peace' is looking a bit more fragile now lol!  

Ah...so you're getting Tomas to break ranks eh? Should be _doubly_ interesting therefore to see how Odyssey compares to the other models!!

And yes, no point really having to go the top anode route if getting the GEC KT88 and not needing much higher current load on it...(though useful for doubling as power amp at all?). And Mundorfs? Have you looked into Clarity Caps perchance? : http://www.claritycap.co.uk/ :

Looks like Odyssey is well under way...good luck with her and all who sail in her!


----------



## mordy

hypnos1 said:


> Give me a break UT...between you and @mordy my long yearned-for 'age of peace' is looking a bit more fragile now lol!
> 
> Ah...so you're getting Tomas to break ranks eh? Should be _doubly_ interesting therefore to see how Odyssey compares to the other models!!
> 
> ...


Here is a quote from a fellow head-fier:

*In general, tube rolling is fun . Still, it happens that you get a little tired of it. But it passes soon.*


----------



## SonicTrance

Magol79 said:


> @SonicTrance
> 
> Any chance that you can show us a mock-up or sketch of the Eternity?
> I am very interested in this model.
> ...


Sadly not! I don't do sketches or mock-ups, only CAD drawings and thats not very interesting  
But, in about one month time the first Eternity will be ready and I'll of course show it here! 

Thanks Magol!


----------



## UntilThen (Mar 18, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> Really, are you kidding? I kid myself that I am in the Tour de France when riding up a very steep hill near me without getting off, but my ride is over after less than an hour. The Tour De France guys spend 3 weeks on their bikes with only one rest day per week I think.
> 
> Did you really ride the Tour de France? I love watching it on TV for the fantastic scenery.. and the fact that I don't have to exert myself from my armchair .



That's my Tour De France racer.  @mordy knows when I'm kidding.  I did ride a lot 10 years ago. Now I just do Hiit class and golf but I should get back on the Specialized again.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Give me a break UT...between you and @mordy my long yearned-for 'age of peace' is looking a bit more fragile now lol!
> 
> Ah...so you're getting Tomas to break ranks eh? Should be _doubly_ interesting therefore to see how Odyssey compares to the other models!!
> 
> ...



Tomas told me Odyssey will have ~ 10 watts in triode mode and a few more watts in ultralinear. That should be enough to get my bike up the mountains of Tour De France.  

I'll look at Clarity caps if you get back into tube amps. Mordy and I will drag you back in.  Anything wrong with Mundorfs? I was going to use Russian paper with oil.  After Sowter transformers and Yamamoto sockets, my wallet is empty. I need to crowd fund now. You wouldn't have a spare dime would you? 

Yes it will be interesting to see how 'my' Oblivion compares with Odyssey in the comfort of my home.


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 18, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> That's my Tour De France racer.  @mordy knows when I'm kidding.  I did ride a lot 10 years ago. Now I just do Hiit class and golf but I should get back on the Specialized again.


You should, you have the weather for it there, not like here, I get a few yards down the road and it rains on me inevitably! Although it might go down the list of priorities when you get your Odyssey!

Awesome pic .

Edit: a bit off topic, I've just been listening to my hero Hank Marvin and some old Shads stuff, I believe he hangs out somewhere near you these days.


----------



## LoryWiv (Mar 19, 2021)

mordy said:


> Here is a quote from a fellow head-fier:
> 
> *In general, tube rolling is fun . Still, it happens that you get a little tired of it. But it passes soon.*


Who me, obsessed? I can stop any time I want to. But is it normal that going into this store with my wife today invoked instantaneous cravings for these bulbs' bigger musical brethren? Really, though, I could stop any time I want to.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Here is a quote from a fellow head-fier:
> 
> *In general, tube rolling is fun . Still, it happens that you get a little tired of it. But it passes soon.*



Hi M. Indeed, addiction is a (terrifyingly) wondrous thing lol! ...


LoryWiv said:


> Who me, obsessed? I can stop any time I want to. But is it normal that going into this store with my wife today invoked instantaneous cravings for these bulbs' bigger musical brethren? Really, though, I could stop any time I want to.



And hi to you too LW. Ah, that old saying..."Quitting is easy - I've done it a thousand times"!!!


----------



## hypnos1

UntilThen said:


> Tomas told me Odyssey will have ~ 10 watts in triode mode and a few more watts in ultralinear. That should be enough to get my bike up the mountains of Tour De France.
> 
> I'll look at Clarity caps if you get back into tube amps. Mordy and I will drag you back in.  Anything wrong with Mundorfs? I was going to use Russian paper with oil.  After Sowter transformers and Yamamoto sockets, my wallet is empty. I need to crowd fund now. You wouldn't have a spare dime would you?
> 
> Yes it will be interesting to see how 'my' Oblivion compares with Odyssey in the comfort of my home.



Oohh...plenty power there UT..._nice_. 

After Chord and Antipodes my wallet is even emptier than yours I'm afraid...you and M will need half a dozen Shire horses as well to help you with the nefarious deed lol!  And nowt wrong with Mundorfs (apart - according to some - from possibly trading on their name these days?), but have read good things about the Clarity Caps..._and they're British!_


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Oohh...plenty power there UT..._nice_.
> 
> After Chord and Antipodes my wallet is even emptier than yours I'm afraid...you and M will need half a dozen Shire horses as well to help you with the nefarious deed lol!  And nowt wrong with Mundorfs (apart - according to some - from possibly trading on their name these days?), but have read good things about the Clarity Caps..._and they're British!_



The power I want to drive my speakers in nearfield listening and 10 watts ought to do that easily. Oblivion with 2.3 watts are now driving the same Axis Voicebox S monitors that I have on my desk. ... to pretty adequate levels... I never play it extremely loud when listening in nearfield.  

I was initially going to suggest using Jupiters caps because they seem to be favored after the expensive Dueland caps. However I recall the GOTL sounding very good even with Russian paper with oil caps. Tomas said that in his initial testing, he cannot find much difference between the Mundorfs caps and the ordinary caps that he uses in Oblivion and Citadels .... wait a minute I am not even sure if caps are being use in those amps but I know Tomas told me something about comparing those caps... so I figure that caps don't really matter. Mundorfs, Jupiters, Dueland, Mars, Venus what do I care. 

However transformers are another matter. I have always worship Lundahl transformers but after Tomas told me about Sowter and after I googled about that brand, I knew they are a brand to be respected where transformers are concern. In a transformer coupled amp, the quality of the transformers are very important. So I'm willing to go with Sowter UK transformers. Almost I became almost paranoid about Yamamoto's sockets. I got to have them. All 6 of them. I also wanted Yamamoto mA meters but they stop producing them !!!

Just quickly, this is Odyssey configurations:-

Drivers - Single double triode 6SL7 - can use 6SN7 in the same socket. Can use 12a*7 with adapter in that socket. 2 x EL11 sockets flanking the 6SL7 socket. Why EL11? Because I think they have magical powers that will save the world from climate change disasters.  Also I like how they sound plus I have about 7 pairs of various brand of EL11. Even Tomas reckon that they will be beautiful sounding as drivers for the various power tubes.

Powers - KT88 (amp is bias to this tube), KT77, KT66, KT120, KT150, 6L6GC, 6550, EL34, 807, EL12 spez, EL156, GEC TT21, EL38, EL39 .... I got tired from typing !!! many more others but this should be enough.

Tube rectifiers - bias on GZ34 as it has the lowest voltage drop. Any rectifiers with around 200mA and higher voltage drop can be used. That means 53ku, U52, 5U4G, 596, GZ32, GZ37, 5r4gy, etc etc  

speaker out
impedance switch - 4 settings - 8, 16, 72 and 128 ohms... I think
for convenience, xlr and rca in and out
switch for either dac or turntable input
speaker on / off switch

silver metal chassis to match the naked silver Sowter transformers. 2 mA meters in front. Amp will weigh close to 20 kgs .... omg. 

That's my Odyssey. Probably my most expensive purchase. More expensive than Yggdrasil and Ragnarok.  Do I think it's worth it? Of course. I'm a man who takes calculated risks ... key word here is calculated. Firstly I know how amazing Oblivion sound and Tomas did amazing work modding the LD Mark V6/8. Old school amp design is at his finger tips. Why am I going back to old school? Because I'm getting older?  I need a nostalgic trip back to the past not the future. Secondly I was almost on the verge of buying an AmpandSound Mogwai Se or Bigger Ben but I need something more special than that. I needed to be able to specify what driver tubes I can use..... I also hate headphone and rca jacks sticking out from the top like the Bottlehead Crack amps.

Lastly Odyssey is auto bias. I won't drive myself crazy changing bias. As if changing tubes ain't enough.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I was initially going to suggest using Jupiters caps because they seem to be favored after the expensive Dueland caps. However I recall the GOTL sounding very good even with Russian paper with oil caps. Tomas said that in his initial testing, he cannot find much difference between the Mundorfs caps and the ordinary caps that he uses in Oblivion and Citadels .... wait a minute I am not even sure if caps are being use in those amps but I know Tomas told me something about comparing those caps... so I figure that caps don't really matter. Mundorfs, Jupiters, Dueland, Mars, Venus what do I care.


Just so there's no confusion I'll comment on this.

Oblivion and Citadel also has coupling caps. The difference is that they're placed in front of a MOSFET gate. That FET is a source follower (current buffer) that drive the output tube grid. When you place a cap in front of a FET gate it becomes transparent (almost). Any cap of good quality will sound good.

Odyssey will not have a MOSFET grid driver. Instead the driver tube will drive the output tube grid through the coupling cap (the old school way)! So the cap will affect the sound much more in Odyssey. 
When I modded the Little Dot MK6, which is also an old school design (white cathode follower OTL) I compared different coupling caps and found The Mundorf S/G/O to be one of the best. Hence my suggestion to use them in Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks Tomas for clarifying. I am very comfortable with your recommendation of the Mundorf caps. You've found the Mundorf caps to be one of the best and there are things in Odyssey I'll leave it entirely to you. I won't go into decisions on what caps or resistors to use. What do I know.  

All I know is to leave the design and configuration of the amp to you. Then when it's finished, all I have to do is to enjoy the amp.


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> Just so there's no confusion I'll comment on this.
> 
> Oblivion and Citadel also has coupling caps. The difference is that they're placed in front of a MOSFET gate. That FET is a source follower (current buffer) that drive the output tube grid. When you place a cap in front of a FET gate it becomes transparent (almost). Any cap of good quality will sound good.
> 
> ...


Yes I was wondering why the discussion on cap rolling on the Odyssey, I didn't realize it didn't have the FET followers like the Infinity does.

Even so the design which comprises open loop, parafeed OT, and regulated PSU should make for an exceptionally clean sound for a tube amp, even though it isn't fully or partially balanced configuration like Oblivion or Citadel. I can't wait to hear UT's comments on tube rolling with his tube collection on such an already clean sounding amp. It should take him to an entirely different universe than the one we are inhabiting!!

I'm not familiar with circuit design with FET followers. In old school tube amps such as my Little Dot you can use 6SL7 and 6SN7 due to the designer's decision to allow tube rollers to vary these tube types. But in doing so neither tube can operate at it's ideal bias point. If they were to operate ideally they are so different that they would need a switch to go from one tube/load line to the other. With the Infinity, which has FET followers allowing the important horizontal load line, I'm assuming that tube rolling will allow different tubes to operate on different points along this same load line?


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Just quickly, this is Odyssey configurations:-
> 
> Drivers - Single double triode 6SL7 - can use 6SN7 in the same socket. Can use 12a*7 with adapter in that socket. 2 x EL11 sockets flanking the 6SL7 socket. Why EL11? Because I think they have magical powers that will save the world from climate change disasters.  Also I like how they sound plus I have about 7 pairs of various brand of EL11. Even Tomas reckon that they will be beautiful sounding as drivers for the various power tubes.
> 
> ...



With all these different options for tube rolling and switching impedance etc there should be a setting to satisfy practically everyone!


----------



## hypnos1

UntilThen said:


> The power I want to drive my speakers in nearfield listening and 10 watts ought to do that easily. Oblivion with 2.3 watts are now driving the same Axis Voicebox S monitors that I have on my desk. ... to pretty adequate levels... I never play it extremely loud when listening in nearfield.
> 
> I was initially going to suggest using Jupiters caps because they seem to be favored after the expensive Dueland caps. However I recall the GOTL sounding very good even with Russian paper with oil caps. Tomas said that in his initial testing, he cannot find much difference between the Mundorfs caps and the ordinary caps that he uses in Oblivion and Citadels .... wait a minute I am not even sure if caps are being use in those amps but I know Tomas told me something about comparing those caps... so I figure that caps don't really matter. Mundorfs, Jupiters, Dueland, Mars, Venus what do I care.
> 
> ...



WOW UT...sounds great so far! And yes, the finishing touch surely is being able to have a Master builder tailor to your wishes. Not to mention his obviously having checked out the optimum components for you. And no horrid things sticking out the top..._thank Heavens!!_

So, it looks like your collecting of EL11s may well pay dividends...it's a tube that ended up being very much liked in F-A's amps (even if not being run at optimum values). And auto bias? Does that mean auto biasing to each _tube's_ specific parameters as opposed to the usual biasing to the _amp's? _Nice indeed not to have to play around with that yourself...

One thing Matt...with such a beautiful creation, how on Earth are you going to be able to remain 100% impartial/objective when it comes to checking her credentials?   Not easily I would suspect...but given your mammoth tube amp journey so far I'm sure you will find it easier than most lol! ...GOOD LUCK, and HAPPY LISTENING when the magical day arrives...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## LoryWiv

hypnos1 said:


> WOW UT...sounds great so far! And yes, the finishing touch surely is being able to have a Master builder tailor to your wishes. Not to mention his obviously having checked out the optimum components for you. And no horrid things sticking out the top..._thank Heavens!!_
> 
> So, it looks like your collecting of EL11s may well pay dividends...it's a tube that ended up being *very much liked in F-A's amps (even if not being run at optimum values)*. And auto bias? Does that mean auto biasing to each _tube's_ specific parameters as opposed to the usual biasing to the _amp's? _Nice indeed not to have to play around with that yourself...
> 
> One thing Matt...with such a beautiful creation, how on Earth are you going to be able to remain 100% impartial/objective when it comes to checking her credentials?   Not easily I would suspect...but given your mammoth tube amp journey so far I'm sure you will find it easier than most lol! ...GOOD LUCK, and HAPPY LISTENING when the magical day arrives...CHEERS!...CJ


@hypnos1 you raise a point I've been wondering about: I think the F-A amps auto-bias circuit is for power sockets only, and thus when we utilize non-stock type driver tubes (EG - KT66 / 6L6 or 6V6 variants) are we just accepting the 6SN7 bias settings despite these not being optimal for the alternate tube types?

Sonically many of these alternates are wonderful sounding and I realize that's what counts, but intellectually I've been curious about the above. 

Related, is the F-A design choice to apply auto-bias to output tubes only indicative that optimized bias is more important for output than driver tubes?

Always trying to learn and reconcile the electrical principles with what I hear! Thanks for any education  you can provide.


----------



## hypnos1

LoryWiv said:


> @hypnos1 you raise a point I've been wondering about: I think the F-A amps auto-bias circuit is for power sockets only, and thus when we utilize non-stock type driver tubes (EG - KT66 / 6L6 or 6V6 variants) are we just accepting the 6SN7 bias settings despite these not being optimal for the alternate tube types?
> 
> Sonically many of these alternates are wonderful sounding and I realize that's what counts, but intellectually I've been curious about the above.
> 
> ...



Hi LW. Am no electronics engineer myself I'm afraid, but as _all_ tubes have their own set optimal parameters it would therefore follow that the amp's circuit will apply the respective negative charge as part of its configuration...each for drivers _and_ powers...unless I'm very much mistaken? With my experimentation using _non_-configured for tubes I have always been amazed at just how well they still managed to perform (despite the surprise/dismay/derision of some!), although presumably not to their full potential of course . Hence my interest in @UntilThen 's Odyssey with 'auto bias' for different tubes...separate circuitry @SonicTrance ?

Given my - and others' experience of such as the C3g/EL11/EL12 (+Spez)/EL38 &39/KTxx family when not properly configured for, I can only guess at how some of them will sound in Odyssey...can't wait in fact lol!! .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Yes I was wondering why the discussion on cap rolling on the Odyssey, I didn't realize it didn't have the FET followers like the Infinity does.
> 
> Even so the design which comprises open loop, parafeed OT, and regulated PSU should make for an exceptionally clean sound for a tube amp, even though it isn't fully or partially balanced configuration like Oblivion or Citadel. I can't wait to hear UT's comments on tube rolling with his tube collection on such an already clean sounding amp. It should take him to an entirely different universe than the one we are inhabiting!!
> 
> I'm not familiar with circuit design with FET followers. In old school tube amps such as my Little Dot you can use 6SL7 and 6SN7 due to the designer's decision to allow tube rollers to vary these tube types. But in doing so neither tube can operate at it's ideal bias point. If they were to operate ideally they are so different that they would need a switch to go from one tube/load line to the other. With the Infinity, which has FET followers allowing the important horizontal load line, I'm assuming that tube rolling will allow different tubes to operate on different points along this same load line?



There was and never has been any discussions on cap rolling. Discussion on the choice of caps to be used yes but cap rolling never. There are certain things I would never roll. Cables, interconnects, fuses... I've never been compulsive about rolling everything. You won't have time to enjoy music then. You'll just be spending time analyzing and analyzing until it drives you mad. I'll leave it to the amp builder to produce an amp that I can just use and not have to worry about what else to change after it's built. That will definitely defeat the whole idea of having a custom build amp.



baronbeehive said:


> With all these different options for tube rolling and switching impedance etc there should be a setting to satisfy practically everyone!



Yes but it's not my primary goal of having Odyssey. One of my objectives is to keep it simple with just a few variables being able to be changed. Being able to switch drivers, power and rectifers is about enough for me. Even with impedance switch, I notice when I was auditioning Auris Nirvana that switching the 5 settings impedance switch that I can't hear much difference using the same headphone. However you're right, there's enough in Odyssey to tailor it to my desire and it will have lots of flavor compared to a solid state amp that has just one tone. 



hypnos1 said:


> WOW UT...sounds great so far! And yes, the finishing touch surely is being able to have a Master builder tailor to your wishes. Not to mention his obviously having checked out the optimum components for you. And no horrid things sticking out the top..._thank Heavens!!_
> 
> So, it looks like your collecting of EL11s may well pay dividends...it's a tube that ended up being very much liked in F-A's amps (even if not being run at optimum values). And auto bias? Does that mean auto biasing to each _tube's_ specific parameters as opposed to the usual biasing to the _amp's? _Nice indeed not to have to play around with that yourself...
> 
> One thing Matt...with such a beautiful creation, how on Earth are you going to be able to remain 100% impartial/objective when it comes to checking her credentials?   Not easily I would suspect...but given your mammoth tube amp journey so far I'm sure you will find it easier than most lol! ...GOOD LUCK, and HAPPY LISTENING when the magical day arrives...CHEERS!...CJ



First of all, I'll be totally biased lol. I'll never be 100% impartial / objective and I doubt very few would be. I will however be subjective, just like many are. Hence YMMV.

I've found over 5 years of the many tube amps that I've own, that the best way to have a feel for the amp is to live with it for a period of time. Like a year at least. In looking back at the tube amps that I have, I know there were no amps that I hate, that I felt was a mistake. However, I could possibly put a ranking on them if asked to. To this end, I know I'm unbiased because they are my amps and I need never have to please anyone by giving impressions that are contrary to how I feel about the amps. For instance, I've owned the La Figaro 339 three times !!! Against all the other more expensive tube amps that I have, I actually like this inexpensive and imo crude OTL amp but the sound is kind of special to my ears. I'm not saying it's the best of my amps. Definitely not but I kind of like and love it. However with the arrival of Elekit TU-8200 and the tube compliments of KT88 / EL34 (plus variants), that's when I realized (my ears) that there are other tubes that I prefer other than the 6sj7 and 6as7 / 6080. Having said that, I'm listening now to the Woo Audio Wa22 with Ken Rad 6sn7gt bgrp, Tung Sol 5998 and Cossor 53ku, I'm still loving this balanced amp with both LCD-3f and He1000se.

But as soon as I plug my headphones into Oblivion, I know which I prefer more immediately. I've sold off GOTL and Studio Six but have kept Oblivion because I've kept the one that appeals to my ears and with my music. Simple as that.  I have friends wanting to buy my Oblivion but I ain't selling it. I post a short impression of Oblivion vs Auralic Taurus Mk2 recently and I said I much prefer Oblivion over Taurus. The latter is still with me because a recent sale of the Taurus did not go through and I thought to myself, just keep it. It's the only solid state left in my stable and it's only a $1000 if I were to sell it. It's actually very good, Taurus I mean but again I have my preference in the amps that I currently have. I know which ones I prefer because they are the ones I use most. Those that remain on the shelf untouched will be sold off eventually. 

Odyssey will be my last tube amp because 5 years of switching tube amps is enough. La Figaro 339i has been sold off. Violectric v280 has been sold off. If I get another chance to sell Taurus I would. What remains at the end of my head-fi journey will be Odyssey, Oblivion and Wa22.... the latter because I still have lots of very good tubes for it. Thereafter I will just enjoy my music. Just as I'm enjoying music now with the Wa22. See I'm not just bias towards Sonic's amps.   I'm also enjoying the Woo and I don't even post much impressions of the Wa22 on the Woo thread.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi LW. Am no electronics engineer myself I'm afraid, but as _all_ tubes have their own set optimal parameters it would therefore follow that the amp's circuit will apply the respective negative charge as part of its configuration...each for drivers _and_ powers...unless I'm very much mistaken? With my experimentation using _non_-configured for tubes I have always been amazed at just how well they still managed to perform (despite the surprise/dismay/derision of some!), although presumably not to their full potential of course . Hence my interest in @UntilThen 's Odyssey with 'auto bias' for different tubes...separate circuitry @SonicTrance ?
> 
> Given my - and others' experience of such as the C3g/EL11/EL12 (+Spez)/EL38 &39/KTxx family when not properly configured for, I can only guess at how some of them will sound in Odyssey...can't wait in fact lol!! .



Poor Tomas will feel compel to answer and divulge his trade secrets  He doesn't have to but he usually does... in addition to trying to produce one amp every month and it's not his full time job.  I'm Mr June, because there's a queue and I'm several months away but I'm in no hurry.  

Tomas did tell me that Odyssey will be biased on KT88 but that the other power tubes will work just as well. Some more cooler than others.  

Tomas strongly suggest that I use my EL11s as additional drivers and I'm more than happy because that's the reason I bought them - to be used in an amp that is to be called 'Berlin'. Of course the Top Gun amp never eventuate. Instead, it will be Odyssey instead.  I suspect Tomas has his way to have EL11 driven optimally ... after all he's getting special Yamamoto EL156 sockets just for it !!! Both he and I agree that it would be an abomination to use the chinese made yA8 sockets in Odyssey lol.

I believe that the other single 'double triode' socket will be optimally biased for 6SL7 ... which is ok because it will have nice gain to drive those power tubes. 6sn7 and 12a*7 tubes will run in it as a bonus.  That's alright. The tubes that I'm most interested in are optimally biased. Wanting a tube amp to have auto bias for all tubes optimally will be like wanting a perfect world. 

Now I better leave Tomas to answer rather than have UntilThen speculate because the amp will turn out to be something else ! Like a drone? 

Ah if Tomas does answer because he's answering my PMs and many others PMs and answering this thread's questions and his hands are trying to solder and drill.


----------



## SonicTrance

hypnos1 said:


> Hi LW. Am no electronics engineer myself I'm afraid, but as _all_ tubes have their own set optimal parameters it would therefore follow that the amp's circuit will apply the respective negative charge as part of its configuration...each for drivers _and_ powers...unless I'm very much mistaken? With my experimentation using _non_-configured for tubes I have always been amazed at just how well they still managed to perform (despite the surprise/dismay/derision of some!), although presumably not to their full potential of course . Hence my interest in @UntilThen 's Odyssey with 'auto bias' for different tubes...separate circuitry @SonicTrance ?
> 
> Given my - and others' experience of such as the C3g/EL11/EL12 (+Spez)/EL38 &39/KTxx family when not properly configured for, I can only guess at how some of them will sound in Odyssey...can't wait in fact lol!! .


Auto-bias is another word for cathode bias. You have a resistor from cathode to ground, with a bypass cap. You size the resistor to get a certain voltage drop across it. While the grid is at zero V, the voltage drop across the cathode resistor becomes the negative bias voltage for the tube as you measure tube voltage in relation to cathode, always.

It's called "auto-bias" because even though Odyssey will be optimally biased for KT88 output tubes other tubes will still find an operating point and work in the amp as the cathode resistor will always drop some voltage. But, you can only bias the amp "optimally" for a certain tube even with cathode bias. Some tubes bias almost the same while others completely different. The one thing that would cause a output tube not work in Odyssey is if it can't handle the high anode voltage. The tube will then red plate and let out the magic smoke!

You then have fixed bias, also known as grid bias. Infinity and Eternity uses grid bias. The input stage in Oblivion also. With fixed bias you apply a negative voltage to the tube grid and ground the cathode to get your negative voltage. Remember, you measure voltage in relation to cathode. So, grid -> cathode. You then have no option to tube roll what so ever! Unless, you have a way to adjust the negative voltage applied to the grid. This is what I've done with the tube rolling add-on in Infinity and Eternity


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Yes but it's not my primary goal of having Odyssey. One of my objectives is to keep it simple with just a few variables being able to be changed. Being able to switch drivers, power and rectifers is about enough for me. Even with impedance switch, I notice when I was auditioning Auris Nirvana that switching the 5 settings impedance switch that I can't hear much difference using the same headphone. However you're right, there's enough in Odyssey to tailor it to my desire and it will have lots of flavor compared to a solid state amp that has just one tone.


I too have noticed this although it makes sense to match up the impedance of the amp to your headphones. In both my amps I noticed very little change with different impedance settings so I would conclude that it doesn't make much difference.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> The one thing that would cause a output tube not work in Odyssey is if it can't handle the high anode voltage. The tube will then red plate and let out the magic smoke!



That happened to my Elekit TU-8200 2 days ago. Was using the Sylvania 807 on the 2nd day. 1st day everything was perfect and I love the 807 sound. On the 2nd night after work, I power on the amp that was biased for 6L6GC, left the amp to warm for 15 mins then I return to it. Before my very eyes, a plume of fire went up inside the tube and continue to do so for a few secs while I watch transfixed. It was a pinkish red fire and then a swirl of smoke arise like 'Smoke on the water' !. I reached for the power switch and shut it off and yet the same time, I unplug my LCD-3f . Headphone was unharmed.  

Opening up the amp I smell burn PCB board and a left socket. What cause it is was probably a faulty tube or incompatibility. Most likely the NOS NIB tube because only one went up in flames. Being PCB board means renewing the amp may cost as much as a new TU-8200. Will I repair it? Maybe but I have to find out whether it's worth repairing. Otherwise I'll give it its last rites and a ceremonial burial. 

Oh well I'll use my other amps and wait for Odyssey.  The adventures of my head-fi journey.  Fortunately it wasn't one of my NOS NIB GEC KT66 or worst still a GEC KT88.


----------



## UntilThen




----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Not easily I would suspect...but given your mammoth tube amp journey so far I'm sure you will find it easier than most lol!


Thanks for the confidence. It seems a small group here in Sydney wants my opinion too.... for the life of me.

So tomorrow afternoon, a friend is bringing over to my home 2 McChanson amps - KT77 and 300b amps for my opinion.

The KT77 amp is very similar to Odyssey old school design but with just one input driver and of course a pair of Gold Lion KT77 and a GZ34 rectifier. So I will be having a good time with these 2 amps tomorrow and I will give him my unbiased opinion. 😎


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> That happened to my Elekit TU-8200 2 days ago. Was using the Sylvania 807 on the 2nd day. 1st day everything was perfect and I love the 807 sound. On the 2nd night after work, I power on the amp that was biased for 6L6GC, left the amp to warm for 15 mins then I return to it. Before my very eyes, a plume of fire went up inside the tube and continue to do so for a few secs while I watch transfixed. It was a pinkish red fire and then a swirl of smoke arise like 'Smoke on the water' !. I reached for the power switch and shut it off and yet the same time, I unplug my LCD-3f . Headphone was unharmed.
> 
> Opening up the amp I smell burn PCB board and a left socket. What cause it is was probably a faulty tube or incompatibility. Most likely the NOS NIB tube because only one went up in flames. Being PCB board means renewing the amp may cost as much as a new TU-8200. Will I repair it? Maybe but I have to find out whether it's worth repairing. Otherwise I'll give it its last rites and a ceremonial burial.
> 
> Oh well I'll use my other amps and wait for Odyssey.  The adventures of my head-fi journey.  Fortunately it wasn't one of my NOS NIB GEC KT66 or worst still a GEC KT88.



So what was exactly the cause? Auto-bias did not worked and when you put 807 after you previously used 6L6GC something did not adjust and your amp took fire?


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> So what was exactly the cause? Auto-bias did not worked and when you put 807 after you previously used 6L6GC something did not adjust and your amp took fire?


As I took the pains to explain, the 807 tubes work well with no problems on the 1st night of ~ 4 hours. The next night, when I power it on and left it for 15 mins, fire shot up in the left tube. My guess is a faulty tube but it is NOS NIB.... which is no guarantee that it will not be faulty. 

807 is a recommended tube in the Elekit TU-8200. At least by previous tube rollers of that amp - see the Elekit TU-8200 thread 1st page. I have a suspicion that it's not compatible as it is electrically equivalent to the 6L6 - which is different from the 6L6GC that is the stock tube for the TU-8200.  

For Odyssey I'll have to check with Tomas which tubes are usable. He did tell me that for EL39 and EL12 spez to use 5U4G rectifier, which has a bigger voltage drop.


----------



## UntilThen

This is a pure silver speaker taps cable that my friend made for me. I will be swapping my LCD-3f with his He6se tomorrow for 3 weeks. For me to try out the He6se Mk2 with Oblivion and Kenwood KA 3300D and the KT77 and 300b amps via speaker taps. Hope I don't blow it up !!!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> This is a pure silver speaker taps cable that my friend made for me. I will be swapping my LCD-3f with his He6se tomorrow for 3 weeks. For me to try out the He6se Mk2 with Oblivion and Kenwood KA 3300D and the KT77 and 300b amps via speaker taps. Hope I don't blow it up !!!


I would be very interested in what you think of the silver cable if you can let me know when you try it. As I said I was thinking of getting pure silver headphone cable but not speaker cable so that made me sit up with interest.

I gather your Elekit is a diy amp, maybe there was an assembly fault? It's strange the tube was working fine one day an not on the other.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I would be very interested in what you think of the silver cable if you can let me know when you try it. As I said I was thinking of getting pure silver headphone cable but not speaker cable so that made me sit up with interest.
> 
> I gather your Elekit is a diy amp, maybe there was an assembly fault? It's strange the tube was working fine one day an not on the other.



No fault in the diy amp because it was made by a French guy living in Australia and he's an experienced diy person. Not sure why he sold off the Elekit after one year and there were many who were trying to fight for that amp before me but I was the strongest in the school yard and I got the amp... and the rest were on the ground groaning in agony.

I had the Elekit TU-8200 since the 1st of Jan 2021. That's 2 months and 18 days of pure bliss and I was rolling and rolling and rolling... it was perfect. Then 807 came. Might as well be 007. Anyway let's forget about Elle kid.

Now onto the silver cable. He i.e cable man also made me a silver xlr balanced cable for my LCD-3f. So silver headphone cable connect to the speaker cable and then taps ! I'll tell you what happens tomorrow. I want to do that to a few muscular amps. Amps as big as wrestlers. I'll let you know what happens.

Well the probable outcome might be I find it too bright and might just throw the silver away and beg for some copper. 

Now if you'll excuse me I'm in the middle of watching Equalizer 2... you know Denzel Washington? I'll be back.


----------



## hypnos1

SonicTrance said:


> Auto-bias is another word for cathode bias. You have a resistor from cathode to ground, with a bypass cap. You size the resistor to get a certain voltage drop across it. While the grid is at zero V, the voltage drop across the cathode resistor becomes the negative bias voltage for the tube as you measure tube voltage in relation to cathode, always.
> 
> It's called "auto-bias" because even though Odyssey will be optimally biased for KT88 output tubes other tubes will still find an operating point and work in the amp as the cathode resistor will always drop some voltage. But, you can only bias the amp "optimally" for a certain tube even with cathode bias. Some tubes bias almost the same while others completely different. The one thing that would cause a output tube not work in Odyssey is if it can't handle the high anode voltage. The tube will then red plate and let out the magic smoke!
> 
> You then have fixed bias, also known as grid bias. Infinity and Eternity uses grid bias. The input stage in Oblivion also. With fixed bias you apply a negative voltage to the tube grid and ground the cathode to get your negative voltage. Remember, you measure voltage in relation to cathode. So, grid -> cathode. You then have no option to tube roll what so ever! Unless, you have a way to adjust the negative voltage applied to the grid. This is what I've done with the tube rolling add-on in Infinity and Eternity



Thanks for sparing your precious time ST...you must be burning lots of midnight oil lol! Long may your energy resources continue...you must be a real young'un  (either that or you simply plug yourself into one of your projects as you toil!! ).

And yes indeed...auto vs fixed bias - each with its own merits of course...


----------



## hypnos1

UntilThen said:


> No fault in the diy amp because it was made by a French guy living in Australia and he's an experienced diy person. Not sure why he sold off the Elekit after one year and there were many who were trying to fight for that amp before me but I was the strongest in the school yard and I got the amp... and the rest were on the ground groaning in agony.
> 
> I had the Elekit TU-8200 since the 1st of Jan 2021. That's 2 months and 18 days of pure bliss and I was rolling and rolling and rolling... it was perfect. Then 807 came. Might as well be 007. Anyway let's forget about Elle kid.
> 
> ...



OUCH! UT. Interesting though, as when I was researching alternatives to the 6L6 there seemed mixed views as to the 807's versatility? But perhaps it was indeed simply a bad tube which, as you said, can also happen to NOS tubes alas. Normally that kind of catastrophic failure seems to be down to either arcing across electrodes or too high a voltage on the anode?...

And as for silver, if anything in the system is over-sensitive to treble frequencies, then (good!) copper might be a safer bet. However, _*mono-crystal OCC *_silver, as with Neotech's UP-OCC offerings shouldn't cause any such problems (the opposite in fact), and also still deliver good, solid, detailed bass. As always though, the only real way to be sure is _suck it and see!_ ...GOOD LUCK... CJ


----------



## UntilThen

Hey Colin, it seem unreal. We were chatting on Elise thread then Euforia. Now we caught up again here. Except I'm a few years older hahaha. The passion for amps has not died though but I've been through a lot of amps since Elise. Weary? A little... I feel like the journey's coming to an end but the music still sounding as fresh as yesterday. In fact it just sound better with each passing day. 

This silver headphone cable for my LCD-3f is very clear indeed. It ain't too bright. Kind of open up the planar. I like it... a lot. I have a Meze copper 2.5m cable for the LCD-3f and also a Forza Audioworks Claire Hybrid HPC. Suddenly 3 cables for the LCD-3f. I have only one Forza Noir Hybrid HPC for my He1000se. It's silver/copper hybrid. I feel very content with these headphones and the various tube amps I have. 

For Odyssey, I've been thinking of 2 very powerful tubes. The KT150 and EL156. Tomas says I can use them in Odyssey. It will just run cooler. Don't ask me to run 12v GU50 tubes in Odyssey. Not having that feature. Keeping it simple.  

This is what I found out about the EL156 tube - 
_Almost fifty years ago, Telefunken introduced the EL156 as a replacement for KT88  It was used in LP mastering labs to drive cutting lathes. At the time, the tube had a ten-pin base socket,Y10-A , and wasn’t used outside recording studios. As the LP faded, so did the EL156. Some words about the original Telefunken EL156 longevity: I have found data that one of these survived like 60.000h in a laboratory PSU, at an university. I did not believe it at the time._

So maybe if I buy a pair of these, it will last me 60,000 hours... __

And the KT150 tube -
_With a massive plate dissipation of 70 watts, the Tung-Sol KT150 is the most powerful octal beam tetrode ever produced. A pair of KT150s can allow an amplifier with a power output approaching 300 watts to be built.
The Tung-Sol KT150 glass envelope is a special egg shaped balloon that was developed to improve thermal dissipation and maintain a superior vacuum for the best sound. The fact that the glass envelope has no flat sides means the Tung-Sol KT150 has no problems with microphonics._


----------



## hypnos1

UntilThen said:


> Hey Colin, it seem unreal. We were chatting on Elise thread then Euforia. Now we caught up again here. Except I'm a few years older hahaha. The passion for amps has not died though but I've been through a lot of amps since Elise. Weary? A little... I feel like the journey's coming to an end but the music still sounding as fresh as yesterday. In fact it just sound better with each passing day.
> 
> This silver headphone cable for my LCD-3f is very clear indeed. It ain't too bright. Kind of open up the planar. I like it... a lot. I have a Meze copper 2.5m cable for the LCD-3f and also a Forza Audioworks Claire Hybrid HPC. Suddenly 3 cables for the LCD-3f. I have only one Forza Noir Hybrid HPC for my He1000se. It's silver/copper hybrid. I feel very content with these headphones and the various tube amps I have.
> 
> ...



Yo UT...it's just like old days lol . But now my time for in-depth thread involvement is much reduced alas. Occasional revisiting sure is great though....

And that KT150 is one almighty Schwarzenegger of a tube!...and looks real cool lol (_running _cooler would also be a bonus!). But can it match KT88's performance?...plenty research needed methinks! That EL156 also looks interesting...(your tube collection could just possibly be growing exponentially once more, mon ami!!). Ah well, enough tube talk for now I'll wager...now you can just dream of the delights to come in a few months' time. Lucky you! 

ps. Glad you find that silver not too bright...and the hallmark of _good_ silver, especially OCC, is indeed its _clarity _(amongst other virtues)...


----------



## UntilThen (Mar 20, 2021)

hypnos1 said:


> And that KT150 is one almighty Schwarzenegger of a tube!...and looks real cool lol (_running _cooler would also be a bonus!). But can it match KT88's performance?...plenty research needed methinks! That EL156 also looks interesting...(your tube collection could just possibly be growing exponentially once more, mon ami!!). Ah well, enough tube talk for now I'll wager...now you can just dream of the delights to come in a few months' time. Lucky you!



I've sampled a McChanson KT150 amp only recently. Made a short opinion, laying out of my thoughts here. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/eric-mcchanson-headphone-amp.718350/post-16192442

How does it compare to the KT88? I need more time to evaluate that. Elekit TU-8200 failed at the wrong time. It was supposed to be my test bed amp until I get Odyssey. An amp to burn in my NOS tubes.  I'll have to get it repaired or get an interim McChanson amp. Nah .... enough of amps.

Mon ami lol. When you say that I'm reminded of @Lorspeaker  He always find it amusing when you day that.

As I said earlier, a friend is bringing over a McChanson KT77 and 300b amps. He6se Mk2 will also be here. Also a Luxman P750u. Susvara and Utopia too. Auteur and Grado GH4. It's turning out to be a mini meet in my home ! Just when I said I will wind back at my involvement in this hobby.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Who me, obsessed? I can stop any time I want to. But is it normal that going into this store with my wife today invoked instantaneous cravings for these bulbs' bigger musical brethren? Really, though, I could stop any time I want to.


Omg Lory you're beyond hope.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Auto-bias is another word for cathode bias. You have a resistor from cathode to ground, with a bypass cap. You size the resistor to get a certain voltage drop across it. While the grid is at zero V, the voltage drop across the cathode resistor becomes the negative bias voltage for the tube as you measure tube voltage in relation to cathode, always.
> 
> It's called "auto-bias" because even though Odyssey will be optimally biased for KT88 output tubes other tubes will still find an operating point and work in the amp as the cathode resistor will always drop some voltage. But, you can only bias the amp "optimally" for a certain tube even with cathode bias. Some tubes bias almost the same while others completely different. The one thing that would cause a output tube not work in Odyssey is if it can't handle the high anode voltage. The tube will then red plate and let out the magic smoke!
> 
> You then have fixed bias, also known as grid bias. Infinity and Eternity uses grid bias. The input stage in Oblivion also. With fixed bias you apply a negative voltage to the tube grid and ground the cathode to get your negative voltage. Remember, you measure voltage in relation to cathode. So, grid -> cathode. You then have no option to tube roll what so ever! Unless, you have a way to adjust the negative voltage applied to the grid. This is what I've done with the tube rolling add-on in Infinity and Eternity


I won't pretend that I understand this but I like it anyway.


----------



## SonicTrance

hypnos1 said:


> Thanks for sparing your precious time ST...you must be burning lots of midnight oil lol! Long may your energy resources continue...you must be a real young'un  (either that or you simply plug yourself into one of your projects as you toil!! ).
> 
> And yes indeed...auto vs fixed bias - each with its own merits of course...


No problem! Well, I'm turning 39 soon so I guess I'm not THAT old, lol  



UntilThen said:


> As I said earlier, a friend is bringing over a McChanson KT77 and 300b amps. He6se Mk2 will also be here. Also a Luxman P750u. Susvara and Utopia too. Auteur and Grado GH4. It's turning out to be a mini meet in my home ! Just when I said I will wind back at my involvement in this hobby.


Wow! Cool stuff! Have fun!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> No problem! Well, I'm turning 39 soon so I guess I'm not THAT old, lol



Really? So young ! Well lots of people were famous when they were young. James Dean, Beatles, Rolling Stones, ABBA? 

Haha when I think of Sweden I think of ABBA, Volvo but it's a lovely country. I must visit one day !



SonicTrance said:


> Wow! Cool stuff! Have fun!



Yes 3 other lads are coming with their gear...... and it's raining like crazy for the last 2 days !!! and continuing into next week too. In the news, a house was washed down the river.


----------



## UntilThen

@baronbeehive  you wouldn't be interested in classical, would you? I have decided to buy these 90 classical LPs... so I can listen on the weekends with a glass of wine or vodka or guiness stout ! Anything to digest classical.

https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/342028-fs-90-classical-lps/?tab=comments#comment-4726522


----------



## vkung

UntilThen said:


> As I took the pains to explain, the 807 tubes work well with no problems on the 1st night of ~ 4 hours. The next night, when I power it on and left it for 15 mins, fire shot up in the left tube. My guess is a faulty tube but it is NOS NIB.... which is no guarantee that it will not be faulty.
> 
> 807 is a recommended tube in the Elekit TU-8200. At least by previous tube rollers of that amp - see the Elekit TU-8200 thread 1st page. I have a suspicion that it's not compatible as it is electrically equivalent to the 6L6 - which is different from the 6L6GC that is the stock tube for the TU-8200.
> 
> For Odyssey I'll have to check with Tomas which tubes are usable. He did tell me that for EL39 and EL12 spez to use 5U4G rectifier, which has a bigger voltage drop.


The only reason is that your 807 is no good. You bought a bad 807


----------



## vkung

OctavianH said:


> So what was exactly the cause? Auto-bias did not worked and when you put 807 after you previously used 6L6GC something did not adjust and your amp took fire?


you have a bad 807.


----------



## mordy

vkung said:


> you have a bad 807.


The Feliks Euforia has a built in circuit that shuts off the amp when it short circuits, and this saved my amp when there was a catastrophic tube failure.
It seems that most custom amps lack such a feature. Maybe all of them habe a fuse as protection, but I am not aware of such protective circuits in other amps and the fuse does not always protect.


----------



## vkung

FET is only $0.5. It will save your amp.   Of course you can use 807 with adaptor.   No matter what, TU-8200 is designed to run on 6L6GC. Yes, you can use other tube sets but it is an alternative.


----------



## UntilThen

vkung said:


> The only reason is that your 807 is no good. You bought a bad 807



Absolutely I agree with you. Otherwise both tubes would have blown. I just have bad luck with a NOS NIB Sylvania 807, which is a shame because the Radiotron 807 sound very good. So did the Sylvania 807 for one night.


----------



## vkung

it is better off to replace the output transformer to LL2777B.


----------



## UntilThen

vkung said:


> it is better off to replace the output transformer to LL2777B.


I might do that when I get the TU-8200 repaired at the same time. Is it possible to replace just one PCB board and a socket. Apologies talking about Elekit on an Oblivion thread. I should probably take this discussion to the Elekit thread.

Thanks Victor.


----------



## vkung

send me email. I can help you to replace the FET.


----------



## UntilThen

vkung said:


> send me email. I can help you to replace the FET.


Sure thanks. Later because I have 3 other friends here having a mini meet right now. 😊


----------



## vkung

ok


----------



## baronbeehive

hypnos1 said:


> OUCH! UT. Interesting though, as when I was researching alternatives to the 6L6 there seemed mixed views as to the 807's versatility? But perhaps it was indeed simply a bad tube which, as you said, can also happen to NOS tubes alas. Normally that kind of catastrophic failure seems to be down to either arcing across electrodes or too high a voltage on the anode?...
> 
> And as for silver, if anything in the system is over-sensitive to treble frequencies, then (good!) copper might be a safer bet. However, _*mono-crystal OCC *_silver, as with Neotech's UP-OCC offerings shouldn't cause any such problems (the opposite in fact), and also still deliver good, solid, detailed bass. As always though, the only real way to be sure is _suck it and see!_ ...GOOD LUCK... CJ


I don't know if UT can see on the PCB what has burnt out, if so it might be able to be replaced.

Re: silver cable, the trouble is that they tend to be of a smaller cross sectional area than copper probably due to cost. That worried me a bit when I replaced my internal cable with neotech OCC silver, but happily the bass was still there, and yes the clarity was good yet still smooth.

What did surprise me when I looked into cables was that the resistance of silver is very similar to copper, only very slightly less. I expected there to be much more of a difference to account for the sound characteristics.


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 21, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> As I said earlier, a friend is bringing over a McChanson KT77 and 300b amps. He6se Mk2 will also be here. Also a Luxman P750u. Susvara and Utopia too. Auteur and Grado GH4. It's turning out to be a mini meet in my home ! Just when I said I will wind back at my involvement in this hobby.


Sounds like a great mini meet.. wait a minute, what's that smell. Oh it's just your wallet starting to burn again.....


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Really? So young ! Well lots of people were famous when they were young. James Dean, Beatles, Rolling Stones, ABBA?


That is young, unfortunately I can remember the Beatles!



UntilThen said:


> Haha when I think of Sweden I think of ABBA, Volvo but it's a lovely country. I must visit one day !


Me too! Must meet up in Stockholm some time, it looks fantastic!


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 21, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> @baronbeehive  you wouldn't be interested in classical, would you? I have decided to buy these 90 classical LPs... so I can listen on the weekends with a glass of wine or vodka or guiness stout ! Anything to digest classical.
> 
> https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/342028-fs-90-classical-lps/?tab=comments#comment-4726522


There are a lot there that I like, Baroque, Holst, Granados, Bach, Dvoraq, Vivaldi, Chopin, and Vaughn Williams especially. I also know much of the Spanish ones, Granados, Narciso Yepes and Alirio Diyas. In fact all of them look very good. I admit that I don't listen to classical much though now, but Fourplay, now you're talking!! The Spanish ones I know well from my Spanish guitar days, I now spend a lot of time playing my Stratocaster these days.

Did you manage to acquire them?


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> There are a lot there that I like, Baroque, Holst, Granados, Bach, Dvoraq, Vivaldi, Chopin, and Vaughn Williams especially. I also know much of the Spanish ones, Granados, Narciso Yepes and Alirio Diyas. In fact all of them look very good. I admit that I don't listen to classical much though now, but Fourplay, now you're talking!! The Spanish ones I know well from my Spanish guitar days, I now spend a lot of time playing my Stratocaster these days.
> 
> Did you manage to acquire them?



It was a great afternoon spent with 3 other younger audio enthusiasts. Finished up with a dinner at a food court at the end of the day. It was a great day. Too tired to write about what transpired during the mini meet. There were some very good stuff and what I hear was very special and good. I'll have to write a summary about the afternoon session another day. Now I need to hit the sack because tomorrow is working from home day.

At the end of the day, I check my email and saw the seller getting back to me, saying that the 90 classical LPs have been spoken for. Guess there are others more interested than me. That's ok. What I need is quality not quantity. I think I was tempted there because it seem like a bargain. How often do you go to the supermarket and bought items because there is a sale, even though you didn't set off with any intention of buying that item. That's a trick at the supermarket. You will end up buying something you don't need but have bought it anyway because there's a sale on it. 

So next time you see a McIntosh for sale at your local HiFi Shop for $500, don't buy it because you don't need a McIntosh !!! Similarly if you see a Mercedes at the showroom for $1000, don't buy it because the service and repair cost will make you broke !!! 

You get the idea?


----------



## UntilThen

One item that I really love which I heard during the meet is the HE1000 V2. One of the young urns brought it to my house. I have the He1000se but the V2 is very good too. I can tell the difference because it's very easily detectable if you have ears and we all have ears.

2nd item that had my attention is the He6se Mk2. This headphone is with me now for 3 weeks while my LCD-3f goes to Luke Skywalker because we agree to exchange headphones for a 3 weeks period. Now I know what the fuss is all about the He6se. It's actually pretty good when fed with some serious current, which the McChanson KT77 amp has. Even tried speaker taps as well as headphone jack. 

Auteur and Aeolous were there too as well as HD800S, as well as my LCD-3f.

The KT77 SET amp is frighteningly good. What I hear are angels singing and I know my Odyssey has to be just much better, which means the Beatles singing again or in the case of @baronbeehive , Fourplay is at it again.  

Goodnight !


----------



## hypnos1

baronbeehive said:


> I don't know if UT can see on the PCB what has burnt out, if so it might be able to be replaced.
> 
> Re: silver cable, the trouble is that they tend to be of a smaller cross sectional area than copper probably due to cost. That worried me a bit when I replaced my internal cable with neotech OCC silver, but happily the bass was still there, and yes the clarity was good yet still smooth.
> 
> What did surprise me when I looked into cables was that the resistance of silver is very similar to copper, only very slightly less. I expected there to be much more of a difference to account for the sound characteristics.



Was that OCC silver's resistance you compared with copper bb?...interesting if so... . The main benefits with OCC of course come from its _mono_ crystal structure, allowing a much 'cleaner' electron flow. And fortunately, I myself have certainly been very pleased with the Neotech over the years, having experimented (at length!) with both well-respected commercial 'ordinary' silver cable- as from ArtisanSilver/StefanAudioArt for example - and numerous DIY  trials using good quality soft-annealed pure (jewellery) silver wire that managed to outperform the Artisan at a fraction of the cost lol! But even this couldn't match the Neotech UP-OCC-based cables or (mostly) the wire for my DIYs (especially the latter when constructed with multiple shielding and _separate_ cables for signal & return or pos/neg for powers - both AC and DC...thereby reducing capacitance/inductance/interference ).


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 21, 2021)

hypnos1 said:


> Was that OCC silver's resistance you compared with copper bb?...interesting if so... . The main benefits with OCC of course come from its _mono_ crystal structure, allowing a much 'cleaner' electron flow. And fortunately, I myself have certainly been very pleased with the Neotech over the years, having experimented (at length!) with both well-respected commercial 'ordinary' silver cable- as from ArtisanSilver/StefanAudioArt for example - and numerous DIY  trials using good quality soft-annealed pure (jewellery) silver wire that managed to outperform the Artisan at a fraction of the cost lol! But even this couldn't match the Neotech UP-OCC-based cables or (mostly) the wire for my DIYs (especially the latter when constructed with multiple shielding and _separate_ cables for signal & return or pos/neg for powers - both AC and DC...thereby reducing capacitance/inductance/interference ).


Fascinating that you've demonstrated experimentally the properties of the crystal structure that Neotech maintain give such good results!

Yes there's so much to take into account when selecting the appropriate cable. I was a bit concerned as I said when I saw the diameter of the cable I used for the internal output wires on my amp and they were very easy to break if you weren't careful, but the results were superb and I would recommend them to anyone. (I was a bit miserly when ordering the wires due to the cost).

I wanted to improve the clarity, transparency and textural detail of the amp as much as possible over the OCC copper that I had put in originally, and I think I achieved that and am very happy with the result. As I said in the thread, the sound of a violin bow screeching across the strings was texturally superb, very realistic and faithful to the sound of the instrument whereas the OCC copper was much warmer and smoother!

Of course poor quality silver is to be avoided at all costs, that will give you that tinkly, sharp sound that isn't pleasant at all.

I think due to the innovative design of the amps on this thread the cables will be of much less importance though.

Good to see another Brit on the thread lol!


----------



## UntilThen

A few things I wanted to say before I dive back into work again. Firstly, not really an impression of yesterday's meet but more of a summary of thoughts very quickly.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hifiman-he1000-se.886228/post-16252451

Secondly, I know this is a Ultrasonic Studios thread but since my post of my failed Elekit TU-8200 brought @vkung in here to comment, it's only right that I give credit where credit is due. Victor, the representative of Elekit Canada and the North Atlantic - I think he took upon himself the task of helping others with Elekit problems .... willingly, call and spoke to me on Whatsapp this morning. It's rare to see anyone this helpful and there's no gain in it for him. It's just his passion for this hobby as he explains to me. 

Anyway, he will Facetime me once I get back to Canberra on how to decouple the PCB from the chassis and then send it to him and he will fix it for me.  I've not seen such helpfulness before. I'm so glad because I really love this amp that is call Elekit TU-8200.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> One item that I really love which I heard during the meet is the HE1000 V2. One of the young urns brought it to my house. I have the He1000se but the V2 is very good too.


I own the HE1000v2 and hold them in very high regard.
What was it you liked about the v2 in comparison to the SE and vise-versa?


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> I own the HE1000v2 and hold them in very high regard.
> What was it you liked about the v2 in comparison to the SE and vise-versa?


I was going to borrow the v2 for a few weeks to compare with my HE1000se before spilling the beans but I'll let out some now.

HE1000se - sharper at the treble which I quite like. I've never felt let down by the high frequency spike others complain about but it's my ears and preference. Apart from the treble, Se is slightly brighter BUT only in relation to v2. On it's own I would never call Se bright. It's also tighter and more linear. Bass is a notable difference with v2. Bass on the Se is tighter and has more control imo. 

HE1000 v2 - On 1st listen, I immediately detect that it's slightly more relax, more body to the tone, a very very slight warmth - again always in comparison with the HE1000se. On those attributes alone, I actually prefer the v2 over the Se ..... BUT knowing my ears, I have to live with both Se and v2 for a period of time to really decide which I prefer. It could be that I just love both for what they are. 

Everyone (the other 3) at the Meet love the HE1000 v2 and for the life of me, I did not bring the HE1000se back from Canberra this weekend. God knows why !!! I could not do a direct A/B comparison but I will in a couple of weeks time.

Gear used are Bifrost 2 > McChanson KT77 > HE1000 v2 / He6se. 

Between v2 and He6se, it's a no contest. I will take v2 any day and any night but He6se is actually very good also on it own merits when driven by the powerful KT77 amp.

I'm now listening to the He6se driven by Wa22. Volume is at 3pm (3 quarters) with Tung Sol 5998. Clearly not a good match. He6se needs an amp with balls. No kidding.


----------



## joseph69

@UntilThen 
Thanks for spilling the beans early.
I totally understand your views and difference for your preferences. I've never heard the SE before and was just curious of your impressions, so thank you. Also, looking forward to you spending time with both, the v2 & SE and reading your impressions. If The Cable Company starts to loan headphones again (CV-19) I'm going to borrow the SE being I'm very interested in hearing them.


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> @UntilThen
> Thanks for spilling the beans early.
> I totally understand your views and difference for your preferences. I've never heard the SE before and was just curious of your impressions, so thank you. Also, looking forward to you spending time with both, the v2 & SE and reading your impressions. If The Cable Company starts to loan headphones again (CV-19) I'm going to borrow the SE being I'm very interested in hearing them.


You know Joseph for you, my prediction is that you will prefer the Se. For the simple reason you are quite intrigue with the Utopia and HD800. I do too but then again my ears are quite adaptable. I even love the Aeolous and Auteur on the desk with the KT77 amp. 

However what do I know about your preference.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> You know Joseph for you, my prediction is that you will prefer the Se.


I'll let you know as soon as I can borrow them.


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> I'll let you know as soon as I can borrow them.



Well Joseph, I'm trying to borrow the HE1000 v2 for a few days because I'm getting McChanson 300b amp home to audition for a week. I'm still an amp mafia.... right @whirlwind ?

However that still means I can't get my hands on my own HE1000se which is 300 kms away.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Well Joseph, I'm trying to borrow the HE1000 v2 for a few days because I'm getting McChanson 300b amp home to audition for a week. I'm still an amp mafia.... right @whirlwind ?
> 
> However that still means I can't get my hands on my own HE1000se which is 300 kms away.


Yes sir, you are most definitely in the amp mafia


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Yes sir, you are most definitely in the amp mafia


Lol what a term you've coined. These days I'm fortunate enough to sample a lot of amps and headphones because I've met 3 young friends who happen to collect these gear. Last night I collected the 300b amp on loan to me for a week. I'll be posting my impressions of it in the McChanson's thread instead. Headphones I'm using with it are HiFiMan's HE1000v2 and He6se v2.


----------



## hypnos1

baronbeehive said:


> Fascinating that you've demonstrated experimentally the properties of the crystal structure that Neotech maintain give such good results!
> 
> Yes there's so much to take into account when selecting the appropriate cable. I was a bit concerned as I said when I saw the diameter of the cable I used for the internal output wires on my amp and they were very easy to break if you weren't careful, but the results were superb and I would recommend them to anyone. (I was a bit miserly when ordering the wires due to the cost).
> 
> ...



Aaarrrgh bb...me near Nelson country and you near Francis Drake's! Afraid I myself had a much more cushy time as an O and G(?!) on board cruise ships for a while (LA based, mostly).

Anyway, back to one of my favourite topics - _cables & wire. _Interesting you used the UP-OCC silver _inside_ your amp so successfully (despite, yes, its brittle nature as solid wire - especially the thinner gauges!). Feliks Audio were also impressed with the suggestion I made for it to be used in their Special 'Anniversary Edition' Euforia, although they went for 'just' the OCC copper...sadly IMHO!

I suspect that the models here may not benefit quite so much from its use (internally), but every equipment upgrade I've made, from DACs to amps have shown increased performance when treated to Neotech silver as the connection medium. After all, _everything_ carrying the audio signal will have an effect upon its quality/integrity/proneness to interference degradation....and 'weakest links' spring to mind lol! And that even applies to _connectors_ of course...which is why I try to minimise their effect by having the wire _itself_ act as the connection interface wherever possible, rather than transfer via inferior materials and _solder!..._(not easy though and can only really be done with DIY cables of course). 

But I must admit I could never afford commercial cables built to the spec I now demand alas. However, if I should relapse into tubedom at some time in the future, I would definitely ask Tomas to use UP-OCC silver wire in my own baby, whatever the cost...I'll not consider anything else these days!!


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> However, if I should relapse into tubedom at some time in the future, I would definitely ask Tomas to use UP-OCC silver wire in my own baby, whatever the cost...I'll not consider anything else these days!!


You want me to spend more on Odyssey do you? Do you know that Odyssey is now close to a million?


----------



## baronbeehive

hypnos1 said:


> Anyway, back to one of my favourite topics - _cables & wire. _Interesting you used the UP-OCC silver _inside_ your amp so successfully


Just for the output wires, ie those going from the output tubes to the output jacks on the chassis, in effect an extension of the external headphone cable in an effort to preserve the purity of the signal going direct to the headphones.

I didn't expect it to have such an effect after the UP-OCC copper which I liked very much but the effect was quite impressive.


hypnos1 said:


> But I must admit I could never afford commercial cables built to the spec I now demand alas. However, if I should relapse into tubedom at some time in the future, I would definitely ask Tomas to use UP-OCC silver wire in my own baby, whatever the cost...I'll not consider anything else these days!!


Re: your forthcoming relapse, there must be some medicine you could take.. on the other hand it's not such a bad fate .


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> You want me to spend more on Odyssey do you? Do you know that Odyssey is now close to a million?


Odyssey will be so good you won't even notice it hasn't got silver inside!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Odyssey will be so good you won't even notice it hasn't got silver inside!


There will be enough silver in Odyssey because the whole chassis is silver !


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> There will be enough silver in Odyssey because the whole chassis is silver !


Solid silver I hope .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Solid silver I hope .


Pure silver I can assure you. Tomas say no extra charge.  

I thought that Odyssey will be my last tube amp but this 300b amp is a killer. I have to find a way to get Tomas to build me a 300b amp a year after Odyssey.  

I even put in my Mullard GZ32 and I can hear quite a change in tone. Tube rectifiers are not just AC/DC !


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Pure silver I can assure you. Tomas say no extra charge.
> 
> I thought that Odyssey will be my last tube amp but this 300b amp is a killer. I have to find a way to get Tomas to build me a 300b amp a year after Odyssey.
> 
> I even put in my Mullard GZ32 and I can hear quite a change in tone. Tube rectifiers are not just AC/DC !


I'm actually building an Infinity with 300B's after I build your Odyssey


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I'm actually building an Infinity with 300B's after I build your Odyssey


Nice ! 300b with parafeed? I wonder who's the lucky owner. 300b tubes have a distinct mid centric loveliness. I love vocals and there's no better tube than the 300b for vocals. Even with these cheap Psvane 300b, the sound is great !


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Nice ! 300b with parafeed? I wonder who's the lucky owner. 300b tubes have a distinct mid centric loveliness. I love vocals and there's no better tube than the 300b for vocals. Even with these cheap Psvane 300b, the sound is great !


Yes, 300B with parafeed output. It'll be a fun project!


----------



## UntilThen

You're having too many fun projects in a row. 2021 will be a special year for you. Your website will have a lot more pictures in a few months time.


----------



## UntilThen

When you finished your 300b I'll be your tester and I'll bring this skull along.


----------



## hypnos1

UntilThen said:


> You want me to spend more on Odyssey do you? Do you know that Odyssey is now close to a million?



What's that to such an aficionado as yourself UT?!! 


baronbeehive said:


> Just for the output wires, ie those going from the output tubes to the output jacks on the chassis, in effect an extension of the external headphone cable in an effort to preserve the purity of the signal going direct to the headphones.
> 
> I didn't expect it to have such an effect after the UP-OCC copper which I liked very much but the effect was quite impressive.
> 
> Re: your forthcoming relapse, there must be some medicine you could take.. on the other hand it's not such a bad fate .



Given such a relatively short run of the silver, just imagine what much longer ones throughout the system can achieve lol! 

Re. medicine, I had hoped my final succumbing to some Hennessy XO brandy might just do the job, but given my disappointment with it compared to 30 odd years ago am not quite so sure now!!...


SonicTrance said:


> I'm actually building an Infinity with 300B's after I build your Odyssey



And this doesn't bode well for my resolve either ST...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> And this doesn't bode well for my resolve either ST...


Ha ! So the 300b is for you....  CJ I'm finally coming to UK and it's because of the 300b !


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 23, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> When you finished your 300b I'll be your tester and I'll bring this skull along.



You had to have the gold plated one...

This is mine:





Looks a bit like the robot in AI.

Edit: That 300B amp looks interesting. I've heard about a 300B that didn't sound like the typical one but more like a SS amp, obviously the circuit it is in will influence sound. I wonder if sonic is serious what a 300B would sound like with all the FET's, parafeed and so on!


----------



## SonicTrance

baronbeehive said:


> Edit: That 300B amp looks interesting. I've heard about a 300B that didn't sound like the typical one but more like a SS amp, obviously the circuit it is in will influence sound. I wonder if sonic is serious what a 300B would sound like with all the FET's, parafeed and so on!


Infinity sounds nothing like a SS amp. The 300B in Infinity will sound just like a 300B was meant to sound in its linear region.


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 23, 2021)

SonicTrance said:


> Infinity sounds nothing like a SS amp. The 300B in Infinity will sound just like a 300B was meant to sound in its linear region.


Oh I didn't know if you were joking!

A 300B with it's characteristic tube sound together with the new design principles, sounds incredibly exciting.

I can already hear the sounds of UT and hypnos1 entering into their relapse, I myself am teetering on the brink.


----------



## SonicTrance

I'm not joking baron! I don't joke about about tubes!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I'm not joking baron! I don't joke about about tubes!



Neither do I joke about tubes. Rubbing my hands with glee now but I will focus on Odyssey first while I watch you create the Infinity 300b - it's got to have a better name !


----------



## Zachik

SonicTrance said:


> Infinity sounds nothing like a SS amp. The 300B in Infinity will sound just like a 300B was meant to sound in its linear region.


Cannot wait for more details (and photos, when done)!!!
With my current amp collection - I think 300b (or 2a3) amp would complement my lineup... hmmm....   
@SonicTrance - how bad is the leadtime now for a new amp build?


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Cannot wait for more details (and photos, when done)!!!
> With my current amp collection - I think 300b (or 2a3) amp would complement my lineup... hmmm....
> @SonicTrance - how bad is the leadtime now for a new amp build?



Omg Zachik, you're more of an amp mafia and even @whirlwind  will agree.

300b or 2A3 mmmmm tasty. @hypnos1 you ready to dive back in now? You do know you need a tube amp right? At least one.


----------



## UntilThen

About an hour ago, the KT77 was delivered to my house by my friend. After 2 days he took the 300b amp away. I've been mainly listening to vocals in the past 2 days because He1000 v2 powered by the 300b amp is nigh perfect with vocals.

As soon as I switch over to the KT77 amp, I knew straight away that I'm missing the 300b tone badly. The more relaxed, full body tube tone and organic sound is no longer there, replaced by the tighter, harder hitting KT77. The change was not subtle. Whilst after an hour, I start to enjoy the the KT77 with HE1000 v2, I know I am missing the voluptuous tone of the 300b. In time I'll forget about the 300b.... no I won't forget.   

Here is the KT77 with the HE1000 v2. Morale of the story is never listen to a 300b amp. It's like David chance encounter of seeing Bathsheba bathing.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> Morale of the story is never listen to a 300b amp.


You're making me want to try the EML 300B (2.5v) in my WA33.


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> You're making me want to try the EML 300B (2.5v) in my WA33.


You should try it although I don't know if you'll get the pure unadulterated 300b tube tone in the WA33 that was configured for 2a3 tubes? 

Do it anyway and let us know how different quad EML 300B sound from quad 2a3. Not a cheap exercise though.


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> You should try it although I don't know if you'll get the pure unadulterated 300b tube tone in the WA33 that was configured for 2a3 tubes?
> 
> Do it anyway and let us know how different quad EML 300B sound from quad 2a3. Not a cheap exercise though.


Read a couple of posts about the EML 300B for the WA33 that were very positive in saying that they sounded like a 300B. I'm also waiting for another member to receive theirs and give me their thoughts before I make any moves.


----------



## SonicTrance

Zachik said:


> Cannot wait for more details (and photos, when done)!!!
> With my current amp collection - I think 300b (or 2a3) amp would complement my lineup... hmmm....
> @SonicTrance - how bad is the leadtime now for a new amp build?


I currently have builds until August!


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> ST - SonicTrance  I was wondering what's ST.
> 
> Tomas is building for me Odyssey based on old school amp design, using Sowter UK custom order transformers, Mundorf caps and Yamamoto sockets. This is different from his other amp design and tube will influence the sound... a lot.
> 
> I'm debating whether I should get the GEC TT21 since I'll be buying the GEC KT88. No point duplicating there.


Just do it 

Stumbled across this thread whilst searching for info on EL39. They are also great tubes. Close relation to another favorite tube of mine, the 4654.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I currently have builds until August!


Jezz you need to employ me. After I learn to solder I should be able to make a couple of 300b


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Just do it
> 
> Stumbled across this thread whilst searching for info on EL39. They are also great tubes. Close relation to another favorite tubes of mine, the 4654.



Leftside !!! Just when I have convinced myself that I don't need GEC TT21 when I have GEC KT88, you have to dangle the carrots in front of me. I can't resist now....


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Stumbled across this thread whilst searching for info on EL39.


My pair of EL39 is on it's way to me by Global Shipping...  Chelmer Valve Co is the legit supplier. I got it from here NOS NIB.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/La-Radi...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

How's your custom amp coming along?


----------



## UntilThen

Strange how quickly the brain readjust to a new tone. KT77 and HE1000 v2 sounds very good now.... I can't wait for Odyssey.


----------



## Zachik

SonicTrance said:


> I currently have builds until August!


When can we expect more info (and photos) of the 300b amp you have in your build queue?


----------



## SonicTrance (Mar 24, 2021)

Zachik said:


> When can we expect more info (and photos) of the 300b amp you have in your build queue?


In the end of July if all goes according to plan 
It will look like Infinity, just with 300B's instead of the 6P36S's.


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik go for it. I'll wait for your impression.  Tomas will make a great sounding 300b amp with parafeed. This McChanson 300b is also parafeed.

What is parafeed you ask? Hahaha .... go ask Tomas or read a book. Like this article.  

http://diy.ecpaudio.com/p/parafeed-tutorial.html


----------



## OctavianH

SonicTrance said:


> In the end of July if all goes according to plan
> It will look like Infinity, just with 300B's instead of the 6P36S's.



So no Tube rolling add-on.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> So no Tube rolling add-on.


You don't want to roll 300b tubes ! Will make you broke. Typically a well executed 300b amp does not need any tube rolling. Just check out the 300b amps around.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> You don't want to roll 300b tubes ! Will make you broke. Typically a well executed 300b amp does not need any tube rolling. Just check out the 300b amps around.



I was thinking for input stage. I am already broke without 300b tubes, because of alcohol. LOL


----------



## UntilThen (Mar 24, 2021)

Go current production tubes. I'll have to extoll the virtues of current production tubes so we don't keep harping on NOS tubes. This week back in Sydney has taught me something. I did not bring any of my NOS tubes home - KT66, EL34, EL12 spez, etc.

I was using what ever current production tubes that came with McChanson's 300b and KT77 amps. Mr McChanson does not believe in spending outrageous amount on 50, 60 years old tubes. So I've been listening to these 2 amps since Sunday using Psvane 300b and Genalex Gold Lion KT77. In the absence of my NOS tubes, I actually find these 2 amps sounding great with current production tubes.

So just picture the Infinity with 6av6 drivers and Psvane 300b tubes. Once the tone is locked in and optimum, all you want to do is listen to music but first you must find your choice of headphone. For me a He1000se or HE1000 v2 is all I need. For others, they may want a Final D8000 or a Susvara or a LCD-4.... on the Audeze, ha .... I remember how affected I was listening to LCD-4 powered by Auris Nirvana. I need not change the tubes and I'd be totally contended and the Nirvana was sporting a pair of JJ EL34 at $76 only.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Go current production tubes. I'll have to extoll the virtues of current production tubes so we don't keep harping on NOS tubes. This week back in Sydney has taught me something. I did not bring any of my NOS tubes home - KT66, EL34, EL12 spez, etc.
> 
> I was using what ever current production tubes that came with McChanson's 300b and KT77 amps. Mr McChanson does not believe in spending outrageous amount on 50, 60 years old tubes. So I've been listening to these 2 amps since Sunday using Psvane 300b and Genalex Gold Lion KT77. In the absence of my NOS tubes, I actually find these 2 amps sounding great with current production tubes.
> 
> So just picture the Infinity with 6av6 drivers and Psvane 300b tubes. Once the tone is locked in and optimum, all you want to do is listen to music but first you must find your choice of headphone. For me a He1000se or HE1000 v2 is all I need. For others, they may want a Final D8000 or a Susvara or a LCD-4.... on the Audeze, ha .... I remember how affected I was listening to LCD-4 powered by Auris Nirvana. I need not change the tubes and I'd be totally contended and the Nirvana was sporting a pair of JJ EL34 at $76 only.



I agree UT.  That is the great thing about these tube amps that can use the current production tubes.
You can always get tubes for them that won't break the bank. Maybe the older NOS tubes sound better, but the prices are so outrageous that many people don't even use them. Many people that buy these tubes are collectors and the price of the tube is really high because of how rare it is.

It is very nice to own many of these old NOS tubes, but at what point does it not make sense, if one is not a collector, but someone who actually listens to all of their tubes. At this point , you have to ask is the tube that cost 5 times more sound five times better ? 

This is different for everybody I am sure depending on income and whether or not you are a collector or not.
If somebody is a collector then I would say that the old NOS tubes could be a great investment, if you never use them and sell them as NOS at some point down the road they are probably going to be worth more money.


----------



## UntilThen

Well Joe, collecting tubes takes time. It took me many years to get the tubes I want for 6as7 / 6080. Now the cycle repeats for KT88 / EL34. Not forgetting I still have to get some lovely tube rectifiers  

Biggest change is going from 6as7 / 6080 amps to KT88 / EL34 amps. Complete change in tonality. Going to direct heated tubes such as 300b and 2a3 is even bigger change. Ultimately it's in the implementation and the tuning by the custom tube amp architect.

Going to different tube amp design is an even bigger change. Oblivion sound very different to other tube amps I've owned. I'll keep Oblivion for that reason.


----------



## UntilThen

Spending more time with this KT77 amp and HE1000 v2 and I'm totally engrossed. I can say unequivocally that I do not covert 300b amp solely. Love it yes but I also love this KT77 amp tone. I can confidently say that I will be very pleased using my HE1000se with Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

I want you to concentrate as you strapped on your fav headphone driven by your fav tube amp... just concentrate like the gorilla.... and wait for it.


----------



## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> So no Tube rolling add-on.


The customer hasn't requested that. Keeping it simple. Of course you mean input tube rolling. The 300B's each require a separate transformer, filter and 5V regulator for the filaments so no tube rolling there.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Zachik go for it. I'll wait for your impression.  Tomas will make a great sounding 300b amp with parafeed. This McChanson 300b is also parafeed.
> 
> What is parafeed you ask? Hahaha .... go ask Tomas or read a book. Like this article.
> 
> http://diy.ecpaudio.com/p/parafeed-tutorial.html


OK - read the parafeed tutorial, and I am ready for the quiz! 
Joking aside, it is a very good read (and Keenan has provided that link many moons ago, if memory serves).


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Going to different tube amp design is an even bigger change. *Oblivion sound very different to other tube amps I've owned. I'll keep Oblivion for that reason*.


Since I love the sound of my GOTL and 6EL3N amps by Glenn - I am keeping both!
My next amp must sound different enough to justify it, and that is the reason my lead candidates are 2a3 and 300b...
I just need to decide between 2a3 and 300b, and the amp topology (although choosing the the tube might dictate the amp topology).
I will probably start bugging @SonicTrance by PMs for help with figuring out WHAT I want 
I would love to hear from others here their experience and opinions with regards to 2a3 vs. 300b


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> My pair of EL39 is on it's way to me by Global Shipping...  Chelmer Valve Co is the legit supplier. I got it from here NOS NIB.
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/La-Radiotechnique-EL39-NOS-Valve-Tubes/265079940208?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> How's your custom amp coming along?


I've purchased from Chelmer before. Good place to buy from. I have the EL39 with grey/silver ring. Wouldn't mind trying the EL39 with red ring to compare.

I'm still waiting for the custom Sowter transformers for my next amp.

Enjoy folks! Custom headphone amps are the way to go!


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Since I love the sound of my GOTL and 6EL3N amps by Glenn - I am keeping both!
> My next amp must sound different enough to justify it, and that is the reason my lead candidates are 2a3 and 300b...
> I just need to decide between 2a3 and 300b, and the amp topology (although choosing the the tube might dictate the amp topology).
> I will probably start bugging @SonicTrance by PMs for help with figuring out WHAT I want
> I would love to hear from others here their experience and opinions with regards to 2a3 vs. 300b



I wanted to keep most of the amps I've owned but then that will require too many racks.  GOTL is certainly unique enough to keep it. Some amps I'll miss when I let it go. GOTL and Studio Six are those for me. It's ok though because what I have now makes me very happy with the tone and looks.

The only time I've heard a 2a3 amp is the Wa33 driving Susvara in 2018 at the Sydney HiFi Show in Darling Harbour. I remember being very impressed with the very deep bass and sound that mesmerised me with millions of microscopic bubbles of musical notes floating in my head. It was surreal. 

I spend a longer time with 300b amps. Spend 2 weeks with Wa5 and Takatsuki 300b tubes in the comfort of my own home. I had just received the GOTL then and was comparing those 2 using Yggdrasil as dac. More recently, I was using McChanson 300b amp with parafeed. I am candid with my views so I will state here that I love what I hear in McChanson 300b amp. It is very well executed but if I'm getting a 300b amp, I would need one that look just as good as it sound and that's where I will talk to Tomas. If you're unsure of what you want then talking to Tomas is the best thing to do because he will guide you there and you won't be left hanging in your conversations with him because the response is almost instantaneous. 

I'll also admit that I was seriously considering DNA Stratus - the next improved model that is in the development phase. That uses 2a3 as we all know and Donald is also responsive. However I have decided to go with Tomas on a custom amp in Odyssey and that's where I will continue with Leftside's statement below.



leftside said:


> I've purchased from Chelmer before. Good place to buy from. I have the EL39 with grey/silver ring. Wouldn't mind trying the EL39 with red ring to compare.
> 
> I'm still waiting for the custom Sowter transformers for my next amp.
> 
> Enjoy folks! Custom headphone amps are the way to go!



Agree custom amps are the way to go. I was lurking in the 1101 thread for a bit because the thought did cross my mind about engaging Mescha for a custom amp. However I came back to this thread and talking to Tomas was super easy and I actually enjoy the whole thought process of design, configuration with him. To me that is the whole package of the custom amp - from concept to reality.  I'm sure you are having an equally fulfilling and satisfying time with your next amp journey.

Interesting both our custom amps have settled on Sowter transformers. Why not. They are easily one of the best. Let's hope the wait isn't too long.  

You just go ahead and get those 2 versions of EL39 and let me know how they compare. I'm like a curious cat. 

Cheers
UT.


----------



## whirlwind

leftside said:


> I've purchased from Chelmer before. Good place to buy from. I have the EL39 with grey/silver ring. Wouldn't mind trying the EL39 with red ring to compare.
> 
> I'm still waiting for the custom Sowter transformers for my next amp.
> 
> Enjoy folks! Custom headphone amps are the way to go!


Yes sir....a custom amp is just that....why not have what you want....makes all the sense in the world to me    
It is great to see more custom amp makers here on head-fi...makes me feel all warm inside..LOL!


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> It is great to see more custom amp makers here on head-fi...makes me feel all warm inside..LOL!



Pun intended right? Wonder where's Keenan @L0rdGwyn. Haven't seen him here for a while. He's another custom amp maker.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Yes sir....a custom amp is just that....why not have what you want....makes all the sense in the world to me



I want remote control by voice activation but none of the custom amp builder will do that for me. Might have to get Apple to build me an amp. Siri !


----------



## whirlwind (Mar 24, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Pun intended right? Wonder where's Keenan @L0rdGwyn. Haven't seen him here for a while. He's another custom amp maker.


He has left head-fi as it was taking up to much of his time posting everything in the DIY thread....I think he felt obligated to do so and the time spent was just too much along with regular life stuff that it was just not much fun anymore. it is understandable, at times i feel like I spend too much time here listening as I surf the net.....my most enjoyable listening is at night or early in the morning with the lights out and i am in my easy chair listening...that listening is definitely on another level and when I use my favorite tubes.

He did say he would check in every now and then to say hi and what not.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> The only time I've heard a 2a3 amp is the Wa33 driving Susvara in 2018 at the Sydney HiFi Show in Darling Harbour. I remember being very impressed with the very deep bass and sound that mesmerised me with millions of microscopic bubbles of musical notes floating in my head. It was surreal.
> 
> I spend a longer time with 300b amps. Spend 2 weeks with Wa5 and Takatsuki 300b tubes in the comfort of my own home. I had just received the GOTL then and was comparing those 2 using Yggdrasil as dac. More recently, I was using McChanson 300b amp with parafeed. I am candid with my views so I will state here that I love what I hear in McChanson 300b amp.


Hmmm.... I wonder if one could design an amp that supports both 2a3 and 300b tubes...   
(To clarify: 2a3 *or* 300b at any given time!)


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> I want remote control by voice activation but none of the custom amp builder will do that for me. Might have to get Apple to build me an amp. Siri !


LOL!


----------



## Zachik

whirlwind said:


> my most enjoyable listening is at night or early in the morning with the lights out and i am in my easy chair listening...


I hear you... Also spending HOURS every day on Head-Fi... 
Oh, and my Stressless was finally ordered 2 weeks ago - hope to get it next week or the week after at the latest!


----------



## UntilThen

Wow 


whirlwind said:


> He has left head-fi as it was taking up to much of his time posting everything in the DIY thread....I think he felt obligated to do so and the time spent was just too much along with regular life stuff that it was just not much fun anymore. it is understandable, at times i feel like I spend too much time here listening as I surf the net.....my most enjoyable listening is at night or early in the morning with the lights out and i am in my easy chair listening...that listening is definitely on another level and when I use my favorite tubes.
> 
> He did say he would check in every now and then to say hi and what not.



Wow what happened? I'm busy too but I'm still here despite wanting to leave many times.... well I can't because I'm UntilThen   



Zachik said:


> Hmmm.... I wonder if one could design an amp that supports both 2a3 and 300b tubes...
> (To clarify: 2a3 *or* 300b at any given time!)



Hmmm I think you're asking too much. Asking more than voice activation.


----------



## hypnos1 (Mar 24, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> Oh I didn't know if you were joking!
> 
> A 300B with it's characteristic tube sound together with the new design principles, sounds incredibly exciting.
> 
> I can already hear the sounds of UT and hypnos1 entering into their relapse, I myself am teetering on the brink.



Hey bb...just as well you obviously don't suffer from vertigo lol - methinks you've been hovering over that precipice for quite a while now... (have tracked you back to the early days of this thread! ). And wouldn't it be great if a demo 2A3/300B amp were able to do the rounds here in the UK?!...I'll expand on that further below...


UntilThen said:


> Omg Zachik, you're more of an amp mafia and even @whirlwind  will agree.
> 
> 300b or 2A3 mmmmm tasty. @hypnos1 you ready to dive back in now? You do know you need a tube amp right? At least one.



Funny you should say that UT...some while back I purchased 4x 2A3 tubes, ostensibly for perhaps testing in F-A's future flagship, thence much delayed! So they're sitting forlornly in the loft(attic). They're supposedly 'Made in the USA' by Penta Laboratories, but close inspection shows them _identical_ to those from China. And given the rather cheap price, methinks the only thing 'Made in the US' is the _*base!!!*_ Mind you, it's still a very nice looking tube lol! 

Anyway, I find myself very much on the horns of a dilemna. From reading the ethos and strategies behind this 'improved hybrid amp' approach at the beginning of this thread, they sound very similar to Rob Watts's design goals in my Chord TT2 and m-scaler...especially with regard to _transient handling_. In my own particular system, his achievements in this area are startlingly clear. But it doesn't end there...there's nothing blatantly 'SS' like in the presentation - again, _in my system_. It's like a fusion of the best 'traditional' aspects/strengths of solid state with the slightly 'warmer', enveloping, 'organic' nature of _good_ tubes, and a 3 dimensional soundstage that can be quite surreal, without being _overtly_ so (especially re. width). I've known tubes that on first encounter give a WOW in this respect, but which I have now come to realise was at the expense of _precise_ positioning/separation of a good deal of the detail, especially _micro_.

It has taken quite a while for me to fully recognise and appreciate these aspects - and more!, both those that are obvious and those more subtle...close on the 'year' you yourself mentioned recently lol! I suspect your own brief encounter with the Chord combo only gave a partial idea of its true capabilities, as you well appreciate. And I doubt it was fed by the likes of an Antipodes source, or spoilt with cables that would cost $thousands? I mention this because of the shock I had when listening to a member's $10,000+Chord Dave (EDIT..._plus m-scaler!_), with Zenith MKIII source and very good cables. Although much too short for a really meaningful appraisal of course, rather than being totally 'blown away', the immediate 'magic' I've come to expect from my favourite test pieces as soon as I put on the cans just wasn't there to the same degree...and I'm talking that which comes especially from exquisite (accurate) detail and tonal range (including overtones/harmonics); PRaT; and the precision in separaration/placement and consequent soundstage I mentioned earlier...not from more subjective personal _preference_ (as much as is humanly possible that is lol!! ).

This ethos is akin to the underlying one of MrCurwen's original design...ie eschewing tube rolling to achieve different 'flavours'/emphasis and preferring the more 'pure' goal of reproducing _well_ and _accurately_ the original recording (which also means warts and all alas!). This has always been my own personal goal, whether it be in the search for tubes or in any other part of the system.

In conclusion (at last!), I would therefore really need to spend a good while now with anything else that could possibly take my system to new heights...hence my (forlorn) wish that such a demo might be possible. But one lives in eternal hope!! ...CHEERS!...CJ...(Oh dear, I hear those darned 2A3s singing to me as I sit here!! ).


----------



## UntilThen

CJ, I have forgotten what a joy it is to talk to you about head-fi, audio-fi and anything to do with fi but dog-fi, the latter I even post in.  

Strangely in my audio journey, even though I have heard some really good system first hand, I did not necessarily crave that in my day to day listening, especially when I listen while I do other work. In such instance, you do not need audiophile quality because you're only getting 80% at best.... it's like background listening.

I did hear a very good system and it's not the most expensive. It's a stereo system comprising SGR tower active speakers https://www.sgraudio.com/. I heard this when collecting my Studio Six. The owner let me listen to his HiFi system. The room is acoustically treated with curtains, bass traps and other furnishings. I was asked to sit in the centre of the 3 seater coach. The sweet spot so to speak . I was ask to pick a song and I said, 'Pain' by War On Drugs. My host smile at me and said any system can play that well and I said 'Oh.... '. So I countered, what song do you suggest then. He pick a song from the Best Female Audiophile CD - a song by Ana Caram and press play. Song started slow and soft but I hear every note as it floats through the room from left to right, increasing in tempo. That moment, I know what good sound is and to hear that in HiFi is special. 

So some things I can live with .... like a not so perfect system. I imagine myself in Rio or Cuba, listening to some street bands playing with passion with whatever they have. This is me.


----------



## Zachik

Zachik said:


> Hmmm.... I wonder if one could design an amp that supports both 2a3 and 300b tubes...


What do you know? Sounds like with some compromises - it is possible!
http://tubelab.com/designs/tubelab-se/applications/
(read the "The Universal Amplifier" section)

Some of said compromises seems to me can be "bypassed" by using custom transformers, voltage select switches, etc.

What do you think @SonicTrance ?  I have heard so many good things about 2a3 and 300b amps, and with an amp that supports both - no reason to choose!


----------



## hypnos1

UntilThen said:


> CJ, I have forgotten what a joy it is to talk to you about head-fi, audio-fi and anything to do with fi but dog-fi, the latter I even post in.
> 
> Strangely in my audio journey, even though I have heard some really good system first hand, I did not necessarily crave that in my day to day listening, especially when I listen while I do other work. In such instance, you do not need audiophile quality because you're only getting 80% at best.... it's like background listening.
> 
> ...



Yes indeed M...there are so many other sides to music listening than just our 'audiophile' aspirations lol. And to tell the truth, I now see these past years of (seemingly endless!) searching as both a joy _and_ tribulation!! My recent post-hyperanalytical period of peace has allowed me to enjoy vicariously what others are going through...from the comfort of my armchair, rather than the workbench or_ 'assessment'_ chair . And I'm being extra cautious now not to ignore my other obligations in life...especially the Koi lol!...(er, sorry Rita...love of my life ). So methinks it's just as well the young'un has his hands full for a good while yet....

Better go keep the Koi...no, RITA happy, so it's cheers for now UT....and g'night!


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Better go keep the Koi...no, RITA happy



Had a big chuckle all through the day when I was working from home after reading this. In the course of 6 years on Head-Fi, I had my Koi moments... ie I wanted to walk away from this hobby and do something else but... 

You wouldn't believe me when I say that at the end of a 'full' work day, nothing is more refreshing then when I strapped on my headphone and flick the switch of my tube amp. In this case, it's the KT77 amp driving HE1000 v2. Nothing fancy. No silver interconnect, no expensive power cable, an embarrassing Topping D10 dac because my son pinch my Bifrost 2 and Yggdrasil is 300 kms away. 

This sound so good that I loath to give up the KT77 amp at the end of week. I'm supposed to give an impression in McChanson thread but I won't now. I just want to spend every minute remembering this tone because in a few months time, Odyssey will be better. I have no doubt about it. I bet Yamamoto on it even if it's just sockets.

I'm not chasing the highest resolution. I have enough resolution to satisfy my brains but it's the overall tube amp tone and tube tone. Now to google where I can buy one Koi. Just one.

Enjoy CJ and keep RITA happy. She deserves it.


----------



## SonicTrance

Zachik said:


> What do you know? Sounds like with some compromises - it is possible!
> http://tubelab.com/designs/tubelab-se/applications/
> (read the "The Universal Amplifier" section)
> 
> ...


Those compromises depends on whether you want an old school build or something like Infinity.

In Infinity the only issue would be the filament voltage. In theory it should be easy to take the regulated 5V, run it through a switch and cut it in half to get 2.5V. The issue with DHT's is that the filament is also the cathode so there's signal present on the filament. That's why the filament supplies are so important when using DHT's. So, adding more components there might not be the best idea. The other issue is heat in the regulator. The 300B draws 1.2A and the 2A3 draws 2.5A. So a beefe regulator with huge heatsinks are a must.
With that said, most anything is possible. It just adds complexity and compromises.

In an old school build, and if you're chasing high power output, the anode voltage and OT pri impedance also plays a big role.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Wow
> 
> 
> Wow what happened? I'm busy too but I'm still here despite wanting to leave many times.... well I can't because I'm UntilThen
> ...


I think he just wanted to go about with his DIY stuff and not feel like he had to post about it and take pictures of everything all of the time....I am sure he will
drop in from time to time and say hello.





Zachik said:


> I hear you... Also spending HOURS every day on Head-Fi...
> Oh, and my Stressless was finally ordered 2 weeks ago - hope to get it next week or the week after at the latest!


Congrats on the chair, you will love it.


----------



## UntilThen

I thought Stressless is an amp lol.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> I think he just wanted to go about with his DIY stuff and not feel like he had to post about it and take pictures of everything all of the time....I am sure he will
> drop in from time to time and say hello.


I know the feeling. Some days I just don't want to post anything. He was here talking to me about Odyssey. Next week I'll be twiddling my thumps because I can't roll my KT88 or KT77 tubes.


----------



## hypnos1

leftside said:


> I've purchased from Chelmer before. Good place to buy from. I have the EL39 with grey/silver ring. *Wouldn't mind trying the EL39 with red ring to compare.*
> 
> I'm still waiting for the custom Sowter transformers for my next amp.
> 
> Enjoy folks! Custom headphone amps are the way to go!



Hi leftside. That would certainly be interesting, although when researching the EL39 I saw French enthusiasts were *less* than complimentary about it when compared to the silver-skirted 'Pro' tube...the red-skirted being an octal based version of the predecessor 4654 which had the (not much loved) base of the EL3N...


----------



## hypnos1 (Mar 25, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Had a big chuckle all through the day when I was working from home after reading this. In the course of 6 years on Head-Fi, I had my Koi moments... ie I wanted to walk away from this hobby and do something else but...
> 
> You wouldn't believe me when I say that at the end of a 'full' work day, nothing is more refreshing then when I strapped on my headphone and flick the switch of my tube amp. In this case, it's the KT77 amp driving HE1000 v2. Nothing fancy. No silver interconnect, no expensive power cable, an embarrassing Topping D10 dac because my son pinch my Bifrost 2 and Yggdrasil is 300 kms away.
> 
> ...



I hear you UT. Myself, I feel I've become an _obsessive resolutionist(?)_ and for _me_ music must tingle my brain buds to the full lol! I _must_ hear that scatching of a violin or cello bow...although others may prefer a 'softer' tone. And ditto for the kind of overtones and harmonics bordering on - but _not_, distortion...especially from the likes of a 12-string metal acoustic guitar (such as there in abundance in Fleetwood Mac's 'Landslide', even if only from _6_ strings!). And _deliberate_ distortion, beloved of electric guitar players and (over?)enthusiastic saxophonists, is all the more juicy lol! 

The downside of course - but one I'm more than happy to live with, is that this highlights without mercy poorly engineered recordings. But then, if they are indeed _that_ bad, I'm simply not interested in listening to them anyway!!...(unless a true 'classic' in some other exceptional way).

ps. Just _one_ Koi?...NEVER!...cruelty to poor fishes!! A dozen at least! ...

pps. However, despite the above, I do NOT want that 'hard' tone often (sometimes wrongly) attributed to SS ...


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> So I countered, what song do you suggest then. He pick a song from the Best Female Audiophile CD - a song by Ana Caram and press play. Song started slow and soft but I hear every note as it floats through the room from left to right, increasing in tempo. That moment, I know what good sound is and to hear that in HiFi is special.
> 
> So some things I can live with .... like a not so perfect system. I imagine myself in Rio or Cuba, listening to some street bands playing with passion with whatever they have. This is me.


Yeah! Probably down to microphone placement, production, and the intimacy of a solo performance.

Cuba, yes they have a passion there, one of my favourite albums is by those octogenarians called Buena Vista Social Club, Stewart Copeland did a TV programme there and visited them while he was there.


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 25, 2021)

hypnos1 said:


> Hey bb...just as well you obviously don't suffer from vertigo lol - methinks you've been hovering over that precipice for quite a while now... (have tracked you back to the early days of this thread! ). And wouldn't it be great if a demo 2A3/300B amp were able to do the rounds here in the UK?!...I'll expand on that further below...


Not that kind of vertigo! I am recovered from wanting to try everything.. at least atm lol! The reason is that I have found the sound signature that I like after some experimenting. I realised I don't like the syrupy tube sound, nor the ultra clean sound but something in the middle, transparent but with a nice tube glow . This was after some considerable amount of modding, sonic will tell you, the end result was much of what I was after. Of course there are always things you might like to change but on the whole I'm very happy, all the more so for doing it myself. Of course if someone was to give me an Infinity or Oblivion.. I wouldn't turn it down...

BUT.. wouldn't it be nice to see what sonic's amps are like, that's why I'm skulking around on the thread for a sort of vicarious thrill .

I do however suffer from vertigo in real life, which is why I'm  having to employ someone to go up a ladder to paint the outside of the house!



hypnos1 said:


> It has taken quite a while for me to fully recognise and appreciate these aspects - and more!, both those that are obvious and those more subtle...close on the 'year' you yourself mentioned recently lol! I suspect your own brief encounter with the Chord combo only gave a partial idea of its true capabilities, as you well appreciate. And I doubt it was fed by the likes of an Antipodes source, or spoilt with cables that would cost $thousands? I mention this because of the shock I had when listening to a member's $10,000+Chord Dave (EDIT..._plus m-scaler!_), with Zenith MKIII source and very good cables. Although much too short for a really meaningful appraisal of course, rather than being totally 'blown away', the immediate 'magic' I've come to expect from my favourite test pieces as soon as I put on the cans just wasn't there to the same degree...and I'm talking that which comes especially from exquisite (accurate) detail and tonal range (including overtones/harmonics); PRaT; and the precision in separaration/placement and consequent soundstage I mentioned earlier...not from more subjective personal _preference_ (as much as is humanly possible that is lol!! ).



I may be wrong but I don't think excessive micro detailing in sound stage placement is entirely real, if you're hearing something live you don't really hear drums on the left, guitar on the right etc but a bit of a mix. The main factor in MrCurwen's design which contributes to the sound stage precision is the lack of negative feedback loops which the low power of his design allows, and low distortion which the use of FET followers allows . With no negative feedback you have the purest musical signal which is why the amps sound so open and real. Micro detailing enables this sense of being there in the sound stage but I don't know if there's a limit to how much you experience it. Of course the best sound stage comes from binaural reproduction rather than the common practise these days of miking up everything so that you can't get a sense of placement at all.

Yes it would be great to have some demos in this country, I don't know about where you are but there's  nothing this side of London where I am.

Edit: the reason why low power works and high power expensive systems often don't is because of negative feedback loops messing up the signal. That is the characteristic SS sound. For those high power systems that do work I would like to know how they manage it and what electronic wizardry they employ.


----------



## hypnos1 (Mar 25, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> Not that kind of vertigo! I am recovered from wanting to try everything.. at least atm lol! The reason is that I have found the sound signature that I like after some experimenting. I realised I don't like the syrupy tube sound, nor the ultra clean sound but something in the middle, transparent but with a nice tube glow . This was after some considerable amount of modding, sonic will tell you, the end result was much of what I was after. Of course there are always things you might like to change but on the whole I'm very happy, all the more so for doing it myself. Of course if someone was to give me an Infinity or Oblivion.. I wouldn't turn it down...
> 
> BUT.. wouldn't it be nice to see what sonic's amps are like, that's why I'm skulking around on the thread for a sort of vicarious thrill .
> 
> ...



Hi bb. I sympathise with your vertigo (the awful condition that most folks who haven't experienced it don't really understand). I sometimes suffer from it even when just getting up from bed too quickly, and any ear infection - even just via a cold - can bring horrendous symptoms!!

And yes indeed, placement of _all_ detail within the stage has to be handled very carefully, whether for a more concert hall-like 'homogenised' sound or a more 'diffuse', but still integrated one that headphones generally excel at. The latter is _precisely_ what I love about listening via (good) cans, fed by good equipment...ie. detail that can otherwise sometimes get _too_ merged, or even lost via speakers. Both vehicles must, by definition, have their limiting restrictions of course.

However, such detail handling naturally depends entirely upon the recording/mastering and mixing skills of the sound engineer...when done well, that micro detail also should still not sound 'unreal' even when more apparent in the mix and the hp presentation. This is what I myself look for and crave lol! And yes, the amp's design will surely be a determinant factor in this final delivery, but of _equal_ importance (at least IMHO) must be the actual music _source. _I hadn't realised _just _how important until I was fortunate enough to acquire the Antipodes DX. Its own skill and contribution in the details handling area - even over the Naim UnitiCore, convinced me immediately. Detail in well-versed test material (previously from both speakers and headphones) appeared as if from nowhere... and best of all, in a way that didn't seem disjointed, exaggerated or false but totally coherent and natural. But once again, in a way so different to the usual speaker experience or that in a concert hall...and for _me_, one that keeps those tingles going up and down my spine every time I don those cans!  

ps. For me, the genius of Rob Watts's tubeless designs is in pulling off the trick of not having the more negative aspects of SS...how he achieves this is a study at PhD level if one really wants, and I shan't even attempt to summarise lol!!


----------



## UntilThen

A very interesting topic discussed by you both baron and CJ. There's no doubt a 'HiFi' sound whether in stereo or headphone will wow anyone. I was at Sydney HiFi recently for a cartridge replacement. I had brought in my 2nd turntable - a Denon DP300f, gift from the wife 4 years ago and I can't complain that it's cheap and fully automatic ! Which is why I bought my own Rega RP8 later.

While they were fitting a Ortofon 2M Blue to the Denon, the owner of the store invited me to the demo room for a bit of eargasm. I sat in the centre of the couch about 4 metres away from the HiFi rack. G because I can't remember his name, brought out a thin original classical LP and wave it at me. It was flapping... he did that to show me how thin it is.  Then he cue up the tonearm and drop the needle.... and I became a classical convert because I hear everything and I mean everything... less my own breathing.

G made it a point that I understood that the cartridge plus stylus cost $35,000. The turntable and tonearm cost another $10,000. The Preamp cost $10,000. The baby Chord integrated amp that puts out 180w RMS into 8 ohms .... who knows what it cost. The B&W 802 were the speakers playing, not the 803 and 804 next to it. Did I love this setup and what I hear in the acoustically treated room? You bet ! 

However... and this is preference... when I was at another friend's place... the demo was using a Denon vintage SACD player, a Kenwood KA3300 D and a pair of Legacy Focus Se from USA... This system has 'balls' pardon the French. Literally. It's masculine and powerful. Here's the review from AVS... 
_"Here’s a fact- these speakers have the best mids and highs I have heard in a long time. Yes, they are that good. Indeed, among high-end speakers, these are a definite Top Choice."_

... and I did prefer this 2nd setup. It has body to the tone and sound organic and natural. That's how I like my headphone setup to sound.

This is the Sydney HiFi demo showroom and I can't show you my friend's setup because it's his private home. I eventually bought his Kenwood KA 3300D because he has 2 !!!


----------



## baronbeehive

hypnos1 said:


> Anyway, I find myself very much on the horns of a dilemna. From reading the ethos and strategies behind this 'improved hybrid amp' approach at the beginning of this thread, they sound very similar to Rob Watts's design goals in my Chord TT2 and m-scaler...especially with regard to _transient handling_. In my own particular system, his achievements in this area are startlingly clear. But it doesn't end there...there's nothing blatantly 'SS' like in the presentation - again, _in my system_. It's like a fusion of the best 'traditional' aspects/strengths of solid state with the slightly 'warmer', enveloping, 'organic' nature of _good_ tubes, and a 3 dimensional soundstage that can be quite surreal, without being _overtly_ so (especially re. width). I've known tubes that on first encounter give a WOW in this respect, but which I have now come to realise was at the expense of _precise_ positioning/separation of a good deal of the detail, especially _micro_.


Maybe it's time for a Hugo TT2 vv Oblivion shootout!! I believe that the tubes would hold their own easily IMO.

On the APPJ/Miniwatt thread a member compared the APPJ very favourably to his Chord Hugo, and as mine was modded I feel that for an amp which cost virtually nothing it could hold it's own easily with more illustrious competition .


----------



## UntilThen (Mar 25, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> *Maybe it's time for a Hugo TT2 vv Oblivion shootout!!* I believe that the tubes would hold their own easily IMO.
> 
> On the APPJ/Miniwatt thread a member compared the APPJ very favourably to his Chord Hugo, and as mine was modded I feel that for an amp which cost virtually nothing it could hold it's own easily with more illustrious competition .



Ha ! Believe me baron, Oblivion wins because I'm totally biased.  

I've heard Hugo TT2 + M'Scalar not with the special cables that CJ talks about ... direct into Susvara. Like it but not that much until an Auris Nirvana is added into the mix as an amp. That's my kind of tone. Take away the saw tooth violin and give me Jimi Hendrick on his guitar or John Bonham on the drums and let it rip !

Even my caddy @bcowen agrees !


----------



## Magol79

UntilThen said:


> ... and I did prefer this 2nd setup. It has body to the tone and sound organic and natural. That's how I like my headphone setup to sound.


Not to turn this into a headphone thread, but reading this comment, I can't help but ask if you have tried any ZMF headphones?


----------



## baronbeehive

Magol79 said:


> Not to turn this into a headphone thread, but reading this comment, I can't help but ask if you have tried any ZMF headphones?


Ha.. not me but plenty earlier in the thread!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Ha ! Believe me baron, Oblivion wins because I'm totally biased.
> 
> I've heard Hugo TT2 + M'Scalar not with the special cables that CJ talks about ... direct into Susvara. Like it but not that much until an Auris Nirvana is added into the mix as an amp. That's my kind of tone. Take away the saw tooth violin and give me Jimi Hendrick on his guitar or John Bonham on the drums and let it rip !
> 
> Even my caddy @bcowen agrees !



Haha!

I hope your mood has been lifted by that Leonard Cohen, not that it needs lifting lol.


----------



## UntilThen

Magol79 said:


> Not to turn this into a headphone thread, but reading this comment, I can't help but ask if you have tried any ZMF headphones?



I've owned 3 ZMF headphones. Atticus, Eikon and Verite Open LTD Pheasant wood.



baronbeehive said:


> Haha!
> 
> I hope your mood has been lifted by that Leonard Cohen, not that it needs lifting lol.



That setup change Leonard Cohen into Neil Diamond !


----------



## UntilThen

@Magol79  here they were from bygone days... have sold my ZMF but will likely be getting another one again.


----------



## leftside

hypnos1 said:


> Hi leftside. That would certainly be interesting, although when researching the EL39 I saw French enthusiasts were *less* than complimentary about it when compared to the silver-skirted 'Pro' tube...the red-skirted being an octal based version of the predecessor 4654 which had the (not much loved) base of the EL3N...


The silver band EL39 and red band EL39 are the same tube with the same base, and both are meant to be the same as a 4654 (but of course the 4654 has a different base). But, I appreciate different factories and different materials used could change the tone. I have no problem with a EL3N type base. The pins are very easy to clean with a Dremel.
https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el39.html

I'm a big fan of the 4654 tube, which is probably why I also like the EL39 so much. I already have one red based EL39. Just need a second to match it.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> I'm a big fan of the 4654 tube, which is probably why I also like the EL39 so much. I already have one red based EL39. Just need a second to match it.



Here's one left in the whole wide world. Grab it before it disappear.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RARE-PH...&brand=Philips&_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> Here's one left in the whole wide world. Grab it before it disappear.
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RARE-PHILIPS-EL39-SLIGHTLY-USED/163633554547?_trkparms=aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20131231084308&meid=b6175eedd45641b6821d7a4d2491978e&pid=100010&rk=2&rkt=12&sd=265079940208&itm=163633554547&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2047675&algv=DefaultOrganicWithAblationExplorer&brand=Philips&_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109


Thanks. But it doesn't have the same construction as the one I have.


----------



## hypnos1

baronbeehive said:


> Maybe it's time for a Hugo TT2 vv Oblivion shootout!! I believe that the tubes would hold their own easily IMO.
> 
> On the APPJ/Miniwatt thread a member compared the APPJ very favourably to his Chord Hugo, and as mine was modded I feel that for an amp which cost virtually nothing it could hold it's own easily with more illustrious competition .



A shootout would surely be extremely interesting bb...but in all humility, I would want it to be in my own system...I'm afraid I don't fully recognise what many others' findings are with the Chord combo in their own lol  (as highlighted to me in that Dave experience I mentioned recently! ). And what a shame it wouldn't be feasible to replicate _exactly _both our systems in another location where there might just be an Oblivion/Citadel/Odyssey/Infinity/future 300b/2A3 based beauty to tempt our taste buds!!!  But we live in hope, n'est-ce pas?!


UntilThen said:


> Ha ! Believe me baron, Oblivion wins because I'm totally biased.
> 
> I've heard Hugo TT2 + M'Scalar not with the special cables that CJ talks about ... direct into Susvara. Like it but not that much until an Auris Nirvana is added into the mix as an amp. That's my kind of tone. Take away the saw tooth violin and give me Jimi Hendrick on his guitar or John Bonham on the drums and let it rip !
> 
> Even my caddy @bcowen agrees !


Ah UT...direct out to Susvara? Wouldn't even want to try that lol!! Such cans do indeed need further amplification I'm afraid __. And although my Empyreans are driven easily by the combo, the 'magic' only really came when replacing the less-than-exciting stock cable with my multi-gauge UP-OCC silver _and_ copper DIY one plus TOTL Furutech jack (didn't fancy making direct contact to the Chord's innards this time lol! ). And so as always, although each _individual _upgrade stage may not at first bring clearly noticeable improvement, it's the _cumulative_ effect that counts...along with a good dose of _luck_ as to just how well - or otherwise! - they all interact with each other. Hence the absolute minefield of system gear comparisons alas!!...CHEERS!...CJ


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## hpamdr (Mar 26, 2021)

leftside said:


> The silver band EL39 and red band EL39 are the same tube with the same base, and both are meant to be the same as a 4654 (but of course the 4654 has a different base). But, I appreciate different factories and different materials used could change the tone. I have no problem with a EL3N type base. The pins are very easy to clean with a Dremel.
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el39.html
> 
> I'm a big fan of the 4654 tube, which is probably why I also like the EL39 so much. I already have one red based EL39. Just need a second to match it.


If you are a big fan of EL39, you should listen the RT rather than the red band one. To me the red band EL39 is a 4654 with octal base. You can compare construction and you will see that both tubes are not exactly the same.
-- Edited
All the RT have the same construction with ceramic, .... Red band are not always built the same both 4654 and EL39 have different flavors..


----------



## hypnos1

leftside said:


> The silver band EL39 and red band EL39 are the same tube with the same base, and both are meant to be the same as a 4654 (but of course the 4654 has a different base). But, I appreciate different factories and different materials used could change the tone. I have no problem with a EL3N type base. The pins are very easy to clean with a Dremel.
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el39.html
> 
> I'm a big fan of the 4654 tube, which is probably why I also like the EL39 so much. I already have one red based EL39. Just need a seco





leftside said:


> nd to match it.


The plot thickens here leftside . Apparently the EL39 is the _successor_ to the 4654, and its red skirted version certainly dismissed by those on a French thread I can't now find alas...although another reference to it is made here, ie. "THE OLD EL39...." (which had the _red_ base) : https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/12/128712.html 
So it may well be that as you said, differences are down to the various Philips factories involved (all French ones in this case it would appear), with RT and Mazda (France) seeming the best regarded. And so it would be all the more interesting for you to be able to compare 2x reds vs 2x silvers ...GOOD LUCK!


----------



## hpamdr (Mar 26, 2021)

hypnos1 said:


> The plot thickens here leftside . Apparently the EL39 is the _successor_ to the 4654, and its red skirted version certainly dismissed by those on a French thread I can't now find alas...although another reference to it is made here, ie. "THE OLD EL39...." (which had the _red_ base) : https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/12/128712.html
> So it may well be that as you said, differences are down to the various Philips factories involved (all French ones in this case it would appear), with RT and Mazda (France) seeming the best regarded. And so it would be all the more interesting for you to be able to compare 2x reds vs 2x silvers ...GOOD LUCK!


Jean-Luc in this thread is Jean-Luc Benoist, he used a lot EL39 in UFO amplifier... Very regarded amplifier with Mulidine speaker some years ago...
A bit French centric for a French tube 
-- edited 
The new COVID amplifier still use EL39


----------



## hypnos1 (Mar 26, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> Jean-Luc in this thread is Jean-Luc Benoist, he used a lot EL39 in UFO amplifier... Very regarded amplifier with Mulidine speaker some years ago...
> A bit French centric for a French tube
> -- edited
> The new COVID amplifier still use EL39



Yikes hpamdr...what a collection of tubes on that amp!! Would need its own aircon setup I imagine....no mere _fan(s) lol!_ 
And interesting he's still using the EL39...he must have his own stash of tubes I reckon . But I'm sure those 'alternatives' will suit just fine also...

And what a blast you'd have @UntilThen comparing this with your upcoming ST beauty lol ...(you _know_ you can't resist!!).

Edit...ps. Unfortunate choice of name however IMHO, all things considered right now?


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> And what a blast you'd have @UntilThen comparing this with your upcoming ST beauty lol ...(you _know_ you can't resist!!).


Certainly an interesting choice of name for a tube amp. I want nothing to do with Covid.  

The basis of comparison with Odyssey will be based solely on tonality, soundstage, air, transient attack. In this regard, I'll be able to borrow my friend's McChanson KT150 SET amp again for that comparison when the time comes and if I'm lucky I may be able to borrow another friend's Ampandsound Bigger Ben for comparison.

DACs for that occasion will be my Yggdrasil and Terminator and Holo Spring 2 Level 2 from said friend again. Isn't it wonderful to have friends with nice gear that you can borrow?  

And somehow I may have to find an Antipodes DX. I hate looking at this advert because it's too tempting. https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/342090-fs-antipodes-dx-gen-2-4tb-usb-silver-audio-streamer/

What a week it has been. Been working from home and next to me is either the 300b amp or the KT150 amp. On the latter I was given a pair of RCA 6L6 metal shield tubes to use in it. My friend manually adjusted the bias to 5 volts for the change in tube from KT77 to 6L6. I did not expect much but I was so surprised to the point of being overwhelmed by what I heard. Total respect for this unassuming black tube with no glow. It's sizzling and yet it blossomed in the tonal presentation. I.e. it's not lean but it has a nice bloom and it's accompanied by a sizzling top end. Vocals just has that added sparkle to make me sit up while listening at the end of the day. I want Odyssey to give me similar or better experience and I look forward to it. 

The obligatory photo of the amp with RCA 6L6 tube. Sadly I was informed by Tomas that Odyssey cannot use the 6L6 but hey, I've zillions of other power tube options. Less is more !


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> The obligatory photo of the amp with RCA 6L6 tube. Sadly I was informed by Tomas that Odyssey cannot use the 6L6 but hey, I've zillions of other power tube options. Less is more !



Why no 6L6?


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Why no 6L6?



Tomas reply...

_Sorry Matt, you can only use the 6L6GC. The 6L6(G) can't handle the high plate voltage in Odyssey.    _

Ok as I said, I ain't perturbed or complaining. I don't need to use every tube type under the sun.


----------



## OctavianH

Good to know, I'll take a look on the datasheets, I thought all 6L6 are the same.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Good to know, I'll take a look on the datasheets, I thought all 6L6 are the same.


Ha ! Are all humans the same? Just look at @bcowen and me. I'm the goofer and he's the caddy and together we win this year US Masters despite our dissimilarities. We will need divine intervention for this to happen.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Ha ! Are all humans the same? Just look at @bcowen and me. I'm the goofer and he's the caddy and together we win this year US Masters despite our dissimilarities. We will need divine intervention for this to happen.



He is that guy who hates GE tubes? I've read some funny stuff on some threads. I do not remember where.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> He is that guy who hates GE tubes? I've read some funny stuff on some threads. I do not remember where.


Hell no, he's not funny. He's my friend and we just like to zap each other all the time.


----------



## leftside

Some good info here on the 4654. Honestly, this is one of my favorite tubes, along with EL39, EL50, 4699, etc. All close relations to the famous EL34 metal base, but much cheaper. I find the ST coke bottle types to be a little warmer/bolder than their magic mids metal base versions.
https://jacmusic.com/nos/EL50/index.htm

If anyone is interested, Pasquale Russo will soon be updating his fabulous EL34 book with a couple of chapters on the tubes just mentioned - with a few pictures and info from yours truly.
https://digilander.libero.it/pasqua49/GUIDE TO EL34/guide to EL34 6CA7.htm


----------



## Zachik

OctavianH said:


> He is that guy who hates GE tubes? I've read some funny stuff on some threads. I do not remember where.





UntilThen said:


> Hell no, he's not funny.


...and @bcowen collects every GE tube he can get his hands on! 
Once the market is totally dry - you'll read his REAL opinions, pumping up the value of GE NOS tubes


----------



## UntilThen

Of the EL34, I only have Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 and RFT EL34. I don't intend to collect them all. Rather I am spreading my coins on the other tube types, such as KT88, KT77, KT66, etc.

Is Pasquale including EL12 spez in his book. Isn't it the earlier predecessor of EL34.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Ha ! Are all humans the same? Just look at @bcowen and me.* I'm the goofer *and he's the caddy and together we win this year US Masters despite our dissimilarities. We will need divine intervention for this to happen.



A Freudian slip, perhaps?  LOL!!!!!


----------



## hypnos1

UntilThen said:


> Certainly an interesting choice of name for a tube amp. I want nothing to do with Covid.
> 
> The basis of comparison with Odyssey will be based solely on tonality, soundstage, air, transient attack. In this regard, I'll be able to borrow my friend's McChanson KT150 SET amp again for that comparison when the time comes and if I'm lucky I may be able to borrow another friend's Ampandsound Bigger Ben for comparison.
> 
> ...



Sure will be an interesting comparison with the amps you're listening to right now UT...but will you be able to have them there closer to Odyssey's arrival?

ps. Do you ever _sleep lol?!!!..._0355 your current time no?! ...CHEERS!


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> A Freudian slip, perhaps?  LOL!!!!!



No slip there. If we're to win the US Masters, might as well be funny winning it.



hypnos1 said:


> Sure will be an interesting comparison with the amps you're listening to right now UT...but will you be able to have them there closer to Odyssey's arrival?
> 
> ps. Do you ever _sleep lol?!!!..._0355 your current time no?! ...CHEERS!



CJ, the McChanson KT150 amp will certainly be available when Odyssey arrives. Hugo, the Australian Ampandsound dealer expressed interest in having a shootout using Mogwai Se, Bigger Ben, Auris Nirvana with Odyssey when the Greek hero sails home. See the competition that Odyssey will be faced with?

It's Sat ! Went to bed on a Fri night and woke up at 1:30am Sat ...... subconsciously my ears wants to sample the 300b amp again with HE1000 v2 before I return it on Sunday morning.


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 26, 2021)

hypnos1 said:


> A shootout would surely be extremely interesting bb...but in all humility, I would want it to be in my own system...I'm afraid I don't fully recognise what many others' findings are with the Chord combo in their own lol  (as highlighted to me in that Dave experience I mentioned recently! ). And what a shame it wouldn't be feasible to replicate _exactly _both our systems in another location where there might just be an Oblivion/Citadel/Odyssey/Infinity/future 300b/2A3 based beauty to tempt our taste buds!!!  But we live in hope, n'est-ce pas?!
> 
> Ah UT...direct out to Susvara? Wouldn't even want to try that lol!! Such cans do indeed need further amplification I'm afraid __. And although my Empyreans are driven easily by the combo, the 'magic' only really came when replacing the less-than-exciting stock cable with my multi-gauge UP-OCC silver _and_ copper DIY one plus TOTL Furutech jack (didn't fancy making direct contact to the Chord's innards this time lol! ). And so as always, although each _individual _upgrade stage may not at first bring clearly noticeable improvement, it's the _cumulative_ effect that counts...along with a good dose of _luck_ as to just how well - or otherwise! - they all interact with each other. Hence the absolute minefield of system gear comparisons alas!!...CHEERS!...CJ


Indeed a minefield as you say!

Maxx's review at the beginning used the Susvara, with very favourable comments on the ability of the Oblivion to drive it, so, yes bring on the shootout.. and the 300B!

After your comments I'm quite excited about getting the Neotech silver cable for my headphones after all lol! The one I'm looking at is the UP-OCC silver with added gold to satisfy my craving for bling!

Edit: started saving up for it now, probably will cost the same as the amp .

(A bit off topic but could you just sneak in.. without anybody noticing.. the composition of your cable)


----------



## hypnos1 (Mar 26, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> Indeed a minefield as you say!
> 
> Maxx's review at the beginning used the Susvara, with very favourable comments on the ability of the Oblivion to drive it, so, yes bring on the shootout.. and the 300B!
> 
> ...



Ah bb, I've just remembered...it appears folks who want more power for driving cans such as Susvara should ideally use the xlr outs instead of the SE out, so I could just be doing the TT2 a misjustice lol!  

Re. the Neotech AG-GD wire, I presume you mean getting the wire and having it made up? If so, don't pay the horrendous price from hificollective et al, I have an 8 metre length and 4 metre length of AWG*24 *you can have at a fairer price....

Ssshhh...my own cable has 1x 24AWG Neotech UP-OCC silver and 1x 26AWG silver for the 2x pos respectively, and likewise for 2x neg of _each_ 4 pin mini xlr of the Empyreans...(just remembered the additional copper wire I mentioned recently was for my first cable, which I cannibalised to make other cables!).


----------



## UntilThen

Several balanced amps that I've owned certainly should be used in balanced mode ie xlr connection. Not just more power because with power comes control and domination !
Notable examples are Ragnarok, Wa22 and Auralic Taurus Mk2.

Oblivion feels and have a lot of power. This Easter break I'll find out for myself whether it will drive Susvara and He6se as well as the KT150 amp that puts out 8w in triode mode and 12w in UL. I suspect not but I believe Oblivion will still be able to drive those very inefficient headphones.

My new balanced cable for LCD-3f is silver, made by another friend. When you get into this hobby, you make some incredible friends. Not only do they want to buy your amps but they will make you cables.  Anyway not to be flippant about this but this new found friend is one that I take to immediately.

Tracking shows my RT EL39s have arrived at my abode in Canberra. Tubes are gradually arriving and by the time I get Odyssey, I will have all the tubes that I plan for.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Maxx's review at the beginning used the Susvara, with very favourable comments on the ability of the Oblivion to drive it, so, yes bring on the shootout.. and the 300B!



Whose 300b?   You mean the Infinity 300b that Tomas is going to build? I'll never get to hear that. Tomas is the only one to have heard all the amps. Well because he made them. Up to a certain point, I don't want to do serious comparison anymore. When you latched on to a nice sounding system, you just want to listen to music and enjoy it. Right now that's how I feel. I just want to enjoy HE1000 v2 with the 300b for the last hour before I bundle it in the car to return the headphone to my friend. The 300b remains for another day.

I would even have forgotten that I set out to post impressions of the 300b in the McChanson thread because I remember what Eric McChanson told me when he hand me the 300b amp. He told me not to promote it too much because he's old and cannot handle too many new fresh orders. I'm not sure whether to be happy or sad hearing that but I was touched by the man's humility.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Oblivion feels and have a lot of power. This Easter break I'll find out for myself whether it will drive Susvara and He6se as well as the KT150 amp that puts out 8w in triode mode and 12w in UL. I suspect not but I believe Oblivion will still be able to drive those very inefficient headphones.


Did you try He6se directly on the speaker out using the dedicated HE-Adapter or robinette BOX ? 

// A true balanced amp is like having two amps instead of one  L/R, you have L+/L- and R+/R- and usually twice more powerful than SE where the neg part is ignored.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> Did you try He6se directly on the speaker out using the dedicated HE-Adapter or robinette BOX ?
> 
> // A true balanced amp is like having two amps instead of one  L/R, you have L+/L- and R+/R- and usually twice more powerful than SE where the neg part is ignored.



I use the speakers out of the 300b amp using that silver speaker taps cable I got someone to make for me. Tried He1000v2, He6se v2 and LCD-3f and all sounding great out of the speakers taps. Don't really need the headphone outs now.  

This is not a balanced amp. The balanced connection is for convenience as all my headphone cables are terminated with balanced connectors.

The SE amp has got more power than you need for headphones.


----------



## UntilThen

This is the cheap version - speaker taps that came from McChanson.  Do yourself a favour. Go and get a decent one.


----------



## hpamdr (Mar 27, 2021)

UntilThen said:


>


Such cable should not be used with all amplifier as impedance will not be in the best range and you can damage the amplifier. The Robinette box or the HE adapter prevent it !
[IMO] _This is like pulling a big trailer with a Lamborghini with a fitting hitch mount your friend adapted to your car ! _
@SonicTrance  You should ask amp builder to know if it works with amp design !

-- Edited
As Eric provided such adapter, that means that using HP directly at speaker out is by design OK in *his *amp !


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> As Eric provided such adapter, that means that using HP directly at speaker out is by design OK in *his *amp !


Absolutely. This is common practise in the Susvara thread. Go to the vintage amp thread and lots of people are driving their headphones from vintage amps / receivers using speaker taps. Trying it for yourself is believing. I was sceptical myself until I try it. 

I find no abnormalities with how HE1000 v2, He6se, LCD-3f sound from the speaker taps of the 300b amp. I would even have use it on my 180w Redgum integrated amp but it's with my son.


----------



## SonicTrance

hpamdr said:


> Such cable should not be used with all amplifier as impedance will not be in the best range and you can damage the amplifier. The Robinette box or the HE adapter prevent it !
> [IMO] _This is like pulling a big trailer with a Lamborghini with a fitting hitch mount your friend adapted to your car ! _
> @SonicTrance  You should ask amp builder to know if it works with amp design !
> 
> ...


It will work with Oblivion if the connections are balanced as the speaker outputs are balanced in Oblivion. However, such a cable is unnecessary in Oblivion as the low impedance output on the headphone jack is the same output as the speaker jacks.


----------



## hypnos1

SonicTrance said:


> It will work with Oblivion if the connections are balanced as the speaker outputs are balanced in Oblivion. However, such a cable is unnecessary in Oblivion as *the low impedance* *output on the headphone jack is the same output as the speaker jack*s.



Ah, so, great for planars etc....but 600 ohm dynamics? Some potentially interesting info here methinks lol . (Or is there a switch for lo/hi impedance?).


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> (Or is there a switch for lo/hi impedance?).


Yes with my Oblivion. It's an option. Tomorrow on returning to Canberra, will be the first time I'm using the He6se v2 with Oblivion. I'll be using Yggdrasil with xlr interconnet to Oblivion and He6se v2 with balanced cable. I trust Tomas but nevertheless I will still give both headphone out and speaker taps a workout simply because my speaker taps cable is so nice.  

And I'll be using He1000se after a week of He1000 v2. What a strange week it has been. I'll be without the KT150 and 300b amps but I'll have Oblivion and Taurus... and I have to call Victor to see if I can resurrect Elekit TU-8200. We're inching towards June.... Odyssey build commence if there's no delay from Sowter and Yamamoto sockets.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I trust Tomas but nevertheless I will still give both headphone out and speaker taps a workout simply because my speaker taps cable is so nice.


Just make sure the cable is actually balanced or it won't work! The red forks should go to pin 1 and 3 and the black forks to 2 and 4 with no connection to one another. You use an ohmmeter and test using continuity between pins and the forks. If the black forks are joined together as a common ground it won't work. You can just hook up the cable and test but if you don't hear any music don't raise the volume! That will cause the amp to hard clip and it could get damaged. Just be careful.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Just make sure the cable is actually balanced or it won't work! The red forks should go to pin 1 and 3 and the black forks to 2 and 4 with no connection to one another. You use an ohmmeter and test using continuity between pins and the forks. If the black forks are joined together as a common ground it won't work. You can just hook up the cable and test but if you don't hear any music don't raise the volume! That will cause the amp to hard clip and it could get damaged. Just be careful.


Ok I'll be careful. That will be more painful than bcowen driving the cart into the lake. I'll ask my cable maker and show him this message. 

I do not have a fetish desire to connect via speaker taps per se. If headphone out produce what the speakers out produce, I'll use it. Totally more convenient. In fact that is what @xtiva ask Eric to do in the new KT77 amp - build in 2 headphone out jacks - a 1/4 inch and xlr output. It's just that the 300b amp that was loan to me for testing, was originally build as a speaker amp only, with no provision for headphone out. So Eric connected that simple cable so I can try my headphones with the speakers out taps and behold it was great sound.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> Did you try He6se directly on the speaker out using the dedicated HE-Adapter or robinette BOX ?


The robinette BOX looks like the right box to use but hey all this is irrelevant to me when Odyssey comes because I will have proper headphone out sockets and it will have enough juice to drive any headphones I throw at it. The wonders of having a custom amp right?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Ok I'll be careful. That will be more painful than bcowen driving the cart into the lake. I'll ask my cable maker and show him this message.
> 
> I do not have a fetish desire to connect via speaker taps per se. If headphone out produce what the speakers out produce, I'll use it. Totally more convenient. In fact that is what @xtiva ask Eric to do in the new KT77 amp - build in 2 headphone out jacks - a 1/4 inch and xlr output. It's just that the 300b amp that was loan to me for testing, was originally build as a speaker amp only, with no provision for headphone out. So Eric connected that simple cable so I can try my headphones with the speakers out taps and behold it was great sound.


Oh, puhleeeeeze.  Drive the cart into the lake one little old time and that's all I ever hear about anymore.  Just glad you didn't see me drop the 300B amp down the stairs.


----------



## UntilThen (Mar 28, 2021)

Lawn's mowed. Backyard's tidied. Lime tree spouting limes. Tree snakes have disappeared. Time to bundled the 300b amp and make my way to Canberra, dropping it off to @Bruc3 along the way. LCD-3f and He6se in tow. Excited to be going back to the nation's capital and see if my EL39 has been deposited in a safe spot. Plonk He6se into Oblivion and Taurus and hear for myself if these amps does drive the brute to satisfactory volume, which is Thunder and Lightning loud by AC/DC !

Another day closer to Odyssey.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Ok I'll be careful. That will be more painful than bcowen driving the cart into the lake. I'll ask my cable maker and show him this message.
> 
> I do not have a fetish desire to connect via speaker taps per se. If headphone out produce what the speakers out produce, I'll use it. Totally more convenient. In fact that is what @xtiva ask Eric to do in the new KT77 amp - build in 2 headphone out jacks - a 1/4 inch and xlr output. It's just that the 300b amp that was loan to me for testing, was originally build as a speaker amp only, with no provision for headphone out. So Eric connected that simple cable so I can try my headphones with the speakers out taps and behold it was great sound.


About cable, the test should be to test with the headphone plugged. Even if the cable is well done but the headphone plug/cable is not really balanced this is going to ruin your amp. 

Test is pretty simple,  plug headphone to cable, use DMM in Ohmmeter between the two black wire you should have very high value or L !

McChanson DIY cable is for sure not for Oblivion as you only have only one black cable ! With SE amp as both ground are taped together you do not have any issue with all those cables/adapters.

To know if amp is really balanced or not, check if both Black/- speaker out are tapped together with DMM.


----------



## UntilThen

Back to my cave and it's a wonderful cave.  After a week with McChanson's amps, I have forgotten how Oblivion and Taurus sound with these headphones. Simply amazing !
Clarity and details stands out and the sweetness of high frequencies without any sibilance or harshness. Oblivion is the better of the 2 and to this day, it has never failed to put a big smile on my face whenever I use this amp! 

Both Oblivion and Taurus have more than enough power to drive He6se with ease. Volume at 11am at most. Not just loud but the texture is great. However as I said, I much prefer Oblivion because there's tube tone.

And @hpamdr have no fear about my Forza Audioworks xlr balanced headphone cables for He1000se and LCD-3f. These are Noir Hybrid HPC and Claire Hybrid HPC respectively. Been using these in Oblivion for more than a year. It's more balanced than a tight rope walker.  

P/S did I tell you that these 2 amps are utterly quiet with no music playing?


----------



## hpamdr

Hi UlTimate Bruce, my cave is not as nice.... specially because I have F.A. Euforia out for a week.. 
Back to SS Cayin iHa-6 (no noise after service) this is a kind of Taurus MK2 with many pairing features. And hybrid CTH a bit more noisy.

@DecentLevi Did you have Infinity at home ? 
What's your impression....
.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> my cave is not as nice....


We still need to see the pictures even if you have a bear in the cave.


----------



## UntilThen (Mar 28, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> Hi UlTimate Bruce



Since when did I become a Bruce.   Been rolling headphones with Oblivion since last night. He1000se, LCD-3f, He6se and HD650. I remember MrCuwen telling me that Oblivion will make headphones sound how they should and I could not help but agree. There's so much air now from these headphones. So spacious. An effect I obviously like. Compared to Taurus, the Auralic sounded compressed and digital now whereas the Oblivion has a very pleasing tube tone and great clarity. This will not help me when I want to sell the Taurus. I should just keep it. 

I'm using HD650 as I type. I must be mad to want to sell this mint condition unit with 2 sets of cable (xlr and 1/4) for $260. When I came to my senses, I kept it. I have heard this particularly unmodded HD650 on all my amps (ss and tube) and this paring with Oblivion is one of the best. The term veil doesn't exist anymore. Oblivion opens up the HD650 and I'm enjoying it as much as the more expensive planars headphones in my stable. Now to get the HD800 back from my son.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Since when did I become a Bruce.


(no offend) Since you have a (bat)cave with plenty of nice stuff like Bruce Wayne.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Since when did I become a Bruce.



You mean this isn't you?


----------



## leftside

@hypnos1 if you don’t like the EL3N type base, how about these Philips Miniwatt 4699 with EL11/EL12 type base  😲


----------



## leftside

The 4699 “usually” has the EL3N European side contact P8A base.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> (no offend) Since you have a (bat)cave with plenty of nice stuff like Bruce Wayne.


Ah ha. Batcave... I’m more of a superman


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> how about these Philips Miniwatt 4699 with EL11/EL12 type base 😲


I want. I need these badly. Bcowen will write the cheque for you. Now to look up 4699.


----------



## UntilThen

Lots of 4699 metal base but they are so expensive.....

I don’t see any of your red tubes @leftside


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I want. I need these badly. Bcowen will write the cheque for you.



Check is in the mail. It should arrive about the same time as the funds to cover it.


----------



## jonathan c

hpamdr said:


> (no offend) Since you have a (bat)cave with plenty of nice stuff like Bruce Wayne.


If you are Bruce, does this mean that @bcowen is Alfred.......inter alia......your chauffeur?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Check is in the mail. It should arrive about the same time as the funds to cover it.


Flash: all @bcowen mail is reported to be on the Ever Given. New home address: Suez Canal.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> Lots of 4699 metal base but they are so expensive.....
> 
> I don’t see any of your red tubes @leftside


Yeah don't pay the buy it now price on ebay for those! They can be had for much cheaper. I thought these 4699 I was buying were the "regular" 4699. I opened the package, and thought "eh, that doesn't look right". Plugged them into an EL12 to EL34 adapter and they worked fine!

I purchased them from M-Ware in Germany. I don't think he has any left, but keep an eye on his site. Someone from Canada grabbed the 4654 and 4699 that he had...
https://www.m-ware.de/


----------



## leftside

Here are the "regular 4699":
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/coppia-v...nuove-e-provate-Tube-Lampe-Röhre/353402932604

The guy told me he had some more.... But how the heck you pull off the base and put on an EL11/EL12 base is beyond me. @bcowen will do the conversion I'm sure!


----------



## hpamdr (Mar 29, 2021)

leftside said:


> @hypnos1 if you don’t like the EL3N type base, how about these Philips Miniwatt 4699 with EL11/EL12 type base  😲


You also have the 6M6 with Octal base.


----------



## LoryWiv

leftside said:


> The 4699 “usually” has the EL3N European side contact P8A base.


 Some sources note 4699 are similar to EL34. Do they work in same sockets or with same adapters?


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> If you are Bruce, does this mean that @bcowen is Alfred.......inter alia......your chauffeur?



Oh gosh. Someday I feel bad at making fun of Bcowen but he's such a good sport. Anyway besides being my cart driver, he's also very well versed in 6sn7 tubes. There you go Bill. I paid tribute to you. Someday I'm gonna call on you for your opinion on a good 6SL7, 6Sn7, 12a*7 yeah?

Tonight I did what this cave hasn't done before. I use the Elekit TU-8500 as preamp in Oblivion. TU-8500 uses a pair of Philips Miniwatt 12au7 which has a nice warm tone but very clear. Now Oblivion's tone is slightly changed for the better. If good can be better, what can better be? So both Yggdrasil and the Denon TT goes through the Elekit TU-8500 preamp. Music in Batman's cave just got better.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Here are the "regular 4699":
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/coppia-valvole-Philips-4699-EL6-spez-nuove-e-provate-Tube-Lampe-Röhre/353402932604
> 
> The guy told me he had some more.... But how the heck you pull off the base and put on an EL11/EL12 base is beyond me. @bcowen will do the conversion I'm sure!


Are you using these in your new amp? I'm going to go slow with tube rolling in Odyssey. There are lots of options already. It will probably take me a year to go through them all. 

I'll be listening with a pair of EL11 and EL12 spez. Those are the first tubes I'll be rolling in and it will stay for at least a week.


----------



## hypnos1

leftside said:


> @hypnos1 if you don’t like the EL3N type base, how about these Philips Miniwatt 4699 with EL11/EL12 type base  😲



Mmmm...very nice leftside! And as ever, it looks like a veritable catch-me-if-you-can game between the German Telefunken etc. machine and the Philips behemoth...viz both similarities and differences between almost identical tubes lol!  ... AL4/EL11/EL12 vs AL3/EL3/EL3N/4699 etc. etc. Often, the Philips group seemed to like the _oval_ anode and the Germans _round_ ones, but never predictable!! 

Now, this particular 4699 above is _really_ interesting, having the German Y8A base (and its unique pins) as opposed to the side-contact of other European tubes...a real mix of its 'parallel' German EL12 and Philips stable bottle. But whatever,  the 4699 is apparently a beefed up EL3N (hence its identical appearance - when with same base!), just as the German equivalent EL12 to EL11. 

What I would say is that of the 2 different bases, my money is on the German Y8A one every time lol! Not only does its pins make far better and more reliable contact in the socket, but their construction is by far the best I ever encountered when cannibalising tubes for conversion...bar none!.. in both the thickness/solidity/quality of the metal used, and the pristine condition of the tube's wires residing inside .

And so, yet another nice looking tube that would look good in the Citadel especially IMHO!!...(my aesthetic side much preferring this amp's design over the Oblivion, to tell the truth ...sorry!).


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Oh gosh. Someday I feel bad at making fun of Bcowen but he's such a good sport. Anyway besides being my cart driver, he's also very well versed in 6sn7 tubes. There you go Bill. I paid tribute to you. Someday I'm gonna call on you for your opinion on a good 6SL7, 6Sn7, 12a*7 yeah?



What?!?  No credit for my impeccable and obvious skill manicuring the lawn at your summer castle?  Boy, that hurts.  Next time I'll do the finish mowing with a brush hog.  That'll learn 'ya.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> Are you using these in your new amp? I'm going to go slow with tube rolling in Odyssey. There are lots of options already. It will probably take me a year to go through them all.
> 
> I'll be listening with a pair of EL11 and EL12 spez. Those are the first tubes I'll be rolling in and it will stay for at least a week.They


They are in my DAC right now.


----------



## leftside

LoryWiv said:


> Some sources note 4699 are similar to EL34. Do they work in same sockets or with same adapters?


I am using my 4699 in EL34/KT66 sockets with adapters - it totally depends upon the piece of equipment. If in doubt - ask the builder/manufacturer 

Same adapters? Maybe. You could always ask one of our favorite adapter makers. I have 4699 to EL34 and EL3N to EL34 adapters.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-4699-EL6-TO-EL34-6L6-tube-converter-adapter/191497663001


----------



## leftside

hpamdr said:


> You also have the 6M6 with Octal base.


Indeed you do! And very nice tubes they are.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Tonight I did what this cave hasn't done before. I use the Elekit TU-8500 as preamp in Oblivion. TU-8500 uses a pair of Philips Miniwatt 12au7 which has a nice warm tone but very clear. Now Oblivion's tone is slightly changed for the better. If good can be better, what can better be? So both Yggdrasil and the Denon TT goes through the Elekit TU-8500 preamp. Music in Batman's cave just got better.


I use Philips 12Ax7 in my Miniwatt, best tubes I have heard in that amp!


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> What?!?  No credit for my impeccable and obvious skill manicuring the lawn at your summer castle?  Boy, that hurts.  Next time I'll do the finish mowing with a brush hog.  That'll learn 'ya.



I look at your 'like' count and it don't look right to me. Did you brush hog it? I was going to give you a pay rise but after Odyssey was commissioned to be built, I've sold off every gold in the castle. So sorry no pay rise this year.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> And so, yet another nice looking tube that would look good in the Citadel especially IMHO!!...(my aesthetic side much preferring this amp's design over the Oblivion, to tell the truth ...sorry!).



A discussion on tubes wouldn't be complete without you so thanks for gracing on us with your presence. 

Regarding your above statement, I'll be the judge of that when Odyssey comes because the Greek hero will use Citadel's silver chassis. After first deliberating on a wooden chassis of course. However Oblivion looks much better in real life. It has a castle appearance and expanse of lawn. Just ask Bcowen.



leftside said:


> Indeed you do! And very nice tubes they are.



Mirror, mirror on the wall, which is the most beautiful tube of them all. Leftside I'll go broke trying to catch up with your tubes collection. Especially my fetish for NOS NIB tubes. So for every 4 tubes you buy, I'll just get 1. That will keep the national economy in check.



baronbeehive said:


> I use Philips 12Ax7 in my Miniwatt, best tubes I have heard in that amp!



I love Philips Miniwatt. Someday I'll visit Holland. My private tube seller told me that Philips made tubes are the most special of them all, when he sold me the Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 double 'O' getter. Now he tells me that there's a more special double 'D' getter which he will let me have a pair for a 'little' more.   

Now I've just open to debate which is the plant that makes the best tubes... Mullard Blackburn, Philips Eindhoven, RCA USA Disneyland or the ... what's the tube manufacturing plant in Australia @gibosi  ?


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> Now I've just open to debate which is the plant that makes the best tubes... Mullard Blackburn, Philips Eindhoven, RCA USA Disneyland or the ... what's the tube manufacturing plant in Australia @gibosi ?



Philips Hendon Works, Alberton, Australia? I have some 6M5 made there that are very nice.

As to which of these plants made the best tubes? I am very partial to rectifiers and double triodes made at Mullard Blackburn and Philips Eindhoven. But of course, everyone has different ears and different gear, so one person's opinion is as good as another's. lol


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 29, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I love Philips Miniwatt. Someday I'll visit Holland. My private tube seller told me that Philips made tubes are the most special of them all, when he sold me the Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 double 'O' getter. Now he tells me that there's a more special double 'D' getter which he will let me have a pair for a 'little' more.
> 
> Now I've just open to debate which is the plant that makes the best tubes... Mullard Blackburn, Philips Eindhoven, RCA USA Disneyland or the ... what's the tube manufacturing plant in Australia @gibosi  ?


Yes the getter does seem to make a difference, or perhaps it is the other things that go with the manufacture when they change the getter. I had a small round getter Philips Miniwatt which was good, but this one with the large O getter is quite special, 3d soundstage, extended bass, treble, resolution, dynamics, special tone, it's got the lot! I thought it was a Mullard or Mazda when I got it until someone pointed out the triangle mark from the  Herleen factory Holland which I hadn't noticed. A member on the thread said he preferred them to most Mullards.

Saying that I hope he's not pulling your leg about that "special" tube lol!

Yes I had heard about that factory in Australia now you come to mention it, quite a while ago and  had forgotten about it.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Now I've just open to debate which is the plant that makes the best tubes... Mullard Blackburn, Philips Eindhoven, RCA USA Disneyland *or the ...*


@bcowen - that is your cue to mention GE tubes!


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> Philips Hendon Works, Alberton, Australia? I have some 6M5 made there that are very nice.
> 
> As to which of these plants made the best tubes? I am very partial to rectifiers and double triodes made at Mullard Blackburn and Philips Eindhoven. But of course, everyone has different ears and different gear, so one person's opinion is as good as another's. lol



I will give you a double likes for this post.  

My most expensive tube (pair) will come from ???  the GEC KT88. AUD $1100 omg more expensive than the Callaway driver I wanted to buy.


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> @bcowen - that is your cue to mention GE tubes!



I've told Bcowen time and again that GE is minus the C.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I look at your 'like' count and it don't look right to me. Did you brush hog it? I was going to give you a pay rise but after Odyssey was commissioned to be built, I've sold off every gold in the castle. So sorry no pay rise this year.


I'm just glad there's not an "unlike" button.  

All the gold?  Even the toilet seat?  Dangit.  Guess I'll have to use the bushes from now on. I mean the ones outside, so don't get pissed off about it.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> A discussion on tubes wouldn't be complete without you so thanks for gracing on us with your presence.
> 
> Regarding your above statement, I'll be the judge of that when Odyssey comes because the Greek hero will use Citadel's silver chassis. After first deliberating on a wooden chassis of course. However Oblivion looks much better in real life. It has a castle appearance and expanse of lawn. Just ask Bcowen.
> 
> ...


Don't forget Redbank, NJ, USA! The Bendix tubes produced there include some fine ones.


----------



## hpamdr

gibosi said:


> Philips Hendon Works, Alberton, Australia? I have some 6M5 made there that are very nice.
> 
> As to which of these plants made the best tubes? I am very partial to rectifiers and double triodes made at Mullard Blackburn and Philips Eindhoven. But of course, everyone has different ears and different gear, so one person's opinion is as good as another's. lol


Hi Ken,

You should not be so partial, because all depends also about dates and tube kind. After 1960 most of tube factory have been already "rationalized" for the best (profit).

I like a lot Visseaux tubes made near Lyon, of Cifte made in Ebeyns, La RadioTechnique in Suresnes and Chartre, Tesla in Rožnov, Siemens Munich, Telefunken Berlin .... You also have Russian  plant. 

And for new premium production you have Erlog.


----------



## UntilThen (Mar 30, 2021)

gibosi said:


> Philips Hendon Works, Alberton, Australia? I have some 6M5 made there that are very nice.
> 
> As to which of these plants made the best tubes? I am very partial to rectifiers and double triodes made at Mullard Blackburn and Philips Eindhoven. But of course, everyone has different ears and different gear, so one person's opinion is as good as another's. lol



Philips Hendon is big but it was AWV - Amalgamated Wireless Valve Co that I was thinking about. This plant was in Sydney - Ashfield and subsequently Rydalmere, which is about 5 suburbs from where I live. Tubes production in AWV plant dates back to the 1920s ..... I didn't know we have such a rich history of tube production. This article is a very interesting read.

https://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?Company_id=18673

Philips Hendon factory in Adelaide started much later from 1947.
https://adelaideaz.com/articles/big...s-in-1950s-at-former-hendon-munitions-factory

So where did all these tubes go? I better start digging in my backyard. There may be some there.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Philips Hendon is big but it was AWV - Amalgamated Wireless Valve Co that I was thinking about. This plant was in Sydney - Ashfield and subsequently Rydalmere, which is about 5 suburbs from where I live.


Dammit, you're already living in tube heaven lol!


----------



## baronbeehive

LoryWiv said:


> Don't forget Redbank, NJ, USA! The Bendix tubes produced there include some fine ones.


I had several sets of Bendix 6ASG equivalents for my Little Dot, excellent tubes, and built like a tank! I sold the lot in a rationalisation, and the price has skyrocketted.. damn!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> So where did all these tubes go? I better start digging in my backyard. There may be some there.



They're in the lake.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> They're in the lake.


I thought you told me you had buried them in the bunker.. where he was sure to find them.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> I thought you told me you had buried them in the bunker.. where he was sure to find them.


Perhaps my choice of words on that left something to be desired.  I buried _him_ in the bunker, and stashed all his tubes in the lake (where I can easily retrieve them with his golf cart).


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Dammit, you're already living in tube heaven lol!



A story worth telling here. A year after I got Oblivion, I was in the hunt for different amps again. So at the start of this year, the purchase started with a He1000se followed by the Questyle CMA 12, Violectric v280, Schiit Mjolnir 2, La Figaro 339i, SMSL Sp200, Elekit TU-8500 and TU-8200 and Auralic Taurus Mk2. So I was listening with He1000se and all these new toys and Oblivion was untouched. Then I decided to invest in a custom amp call Odyssey. That started the process of selling off all these amps again.... after a few months. 

It was only in the last week that I really sit down and enjoy music with He1000se, LCD-3f, He6se with Oblivion. I can now say that I've wasted my time and energy chasing other amps when the best sounding amp is right here with me - Oblivion. An amp that has all the tube goodness, stunning details and amazing soundstage without the need to roll tubes. An amp that is super quiet and cool to the touch. An amp that does not boast expensive transformers, sockets, capacitors. An amp that even have speakers out and at 2.3w can drive my Axis Voicebox S at nearfield listening with no problems.

An amp so cool I can even rest the He1000se on it. I'm still on my 1st set of tubes since Oblivion came to me on 23rd Dec 2019. Tubes has never been changed once.

So the question is ... how will Odyssey fare against Oblivion? We have a double O here.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Perhaps my choice of words on that left something to be desired.  I buried _him_ in the bunker, and stashed all his tubes in the lake (where I can easily retrieve them with his golf cart).



Your end of year appraisal is due and we have much to discuss about your performance.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 30, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Your end of year appraisal is due and we have much to discuss about your performance.


But you already said I'm not getting a raise, so my performance is substantially irrelevant.  However, if you were to double my salary to $2 an hour I might consider upping my game a bit....but only if you get the gold toilet seat reinstalled too.


----------



## UntilThen

Flash back to 23rd Dec 2019. This is a first picture that I took of Oblivion. I remember driving back to Canberra to retrieve it and then drive back to Sydney to enjoy my 2 weeks leave for Christmas 2019 with Oblivion. 

Tone right now is as fresh as when I heard it then. I only wish I had sampled Citadel. It was my literature book when I was in high school !


----------



## hpamdr

bcowen said:


> They're in the lake.


The one you visit with the golf cart  That's why you know where they are !


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Perhaps my choice of words on that left something to be desired.  I buried _him_ in the bunker, and stashed all his tubes in the lake (where I can easily retrieve them with his golf cart).



Just as well, I imagine he spends most of his time there anyway .


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Your end of year appraisal is due and we have much to discuss about your performance.


Perhaps if he agrees to become your full time butler.....


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> A story worth telling here. A year after I got Oblivion, I was in the hunt for different amps again. So at the start of this year, the purchase started with a He1000se followed by the Questyle CMA 12, Violectric v280, Schiit Mjolnir 2, La Figaro 339i, SMSL Sp200, Elekit TU-8500 and TU-8200 and Auralic Taurus Mk2. So I was listening with He1000se and all these new toys and Oblivion was untouched. Then I decided to invest in a custom amp call Odyssey. That started the process of selling off all these amps again.... after a few months.
> 
> It was only in the last week that I really sit down and enjoy music with He1000se, LCD-3f, He6se with Oblivion. I can now say that I've wasted my time and energy chasing other amps when the best sounding amp is right here with me - Oblivion. An amp that has all the tube goodness, stunning details and amazing soundstage without the need to roll tubes. An amp that is super quiet and cool to the touch. An amp that does not boast expensive transformers, sockets, capacitors. An amp that even have speakers out and at 2.3w can drive my Axis Voicebox S at nearfield listening with no problems.
> 
> ...



I can almost feel my relapse beginning...

I can't wait to see how the amp compares, I am interested to see how it sounds with all the modern gizmology on it, glad to see you have decided to keep the old school cathode bias though!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I can almost feel my relapse beginning...
> 
> I can't wait to see how the amp compares, I am interested to see how it sounds with all the modern gizmology on it, glad to see you have decided to keep the old school cathode bias though!



I did not decide. Tomas did. I did not even know what old school means. When I first talk to Tomas about this custom amp, I have certain objectives and I listed it out for Tomas:-


Sound great with 2nd harmonic distortions like Auris Nirvana - the 10 grand amp. I wanted an amp that has great tube tone and that can use various pre and power tubes but without going over board.
Powerful - must drive Susvara well and my Axis Voicebox S speakers.
Quiet - because I hate hiss and hum.
Not terribly hot.
Looks good.
Have different impedance for various high and low impedance headphones.
Have good parts so I can say that I did not hold back in getting the amp that I want.

Odyssey will have a hard task pleasing me because what I'm hearing now with LCD-3f or He1000se + Yggdrasil + Oblivion sets me on a course of great musical contentment and bliss. Strangely Tomas told me that I will be very pleased with Odyssey. He must know something that I don't. I am more anxious and excited than you are.


----------



## SonicTrance

baronbeehive said:


> I can almost feel my relapse beginning...
> 
> I can't wait to see how the amp compares, I am interested to see how it sounds with all the modern gizmology on it, glad to see you have decided to keep the old school cathode bias though!


Not sure what modern parts you're referring to baron? Odyssey will not have any of it. It will be an old school amp with 100% tube and OT goodness! No regulators, no gyrators, no CCS's...
I'll build it like that to give Matt a nice contrast to his Oblivion!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Not sure what modern parts you're referring to baron? Odyssey will not have any of it. It will be an old school amp with 100% tube and OT goodness! No regulators, no gyrators, no CCS's...
> I'll build it like that to give Matt a nice contrast to his Oblivion!


Thanks Tomas. It's 31st March today and it's getting closer.  Baron must be thinking of the Yamamoto's sockets when he said modern gizmology.  

I'm always interested in contrast. The fact that the two 'O's are very different in build implementation and design gets me excited. 100% tube and OT goodness you say? By the time I'm finished spending on tubes, it will cost more than the Sowter's transformers.

In the midst of all this excitement, a package arrived yesterday... a package I had forgotten about. About 2 months ago, John Burson contacted me about testing the OP amp in my Topping D10. It didn't turn up after a long time. I surmised that it must be in the lake where Bcowen have left them. So this long weekend, I get to open up the D10 for some OP amp swapping and see if it makes a difference to my 3rd dac.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi @UntilThen ...I do indeed like sticking my nose in now and again re. tubes especially. For years now they've given me no end of pleasure, fascination and further insight into the whole realm of hi-fi...tube or otherwise!

Anyway, as pretty well my final incursion into ostensibly a non-tube rolling thread (so apologies to those not so smitten lol! ), I just thought a nod to the Aussie tube makers might be in order...viz the 2 EL3N tubes that I found easily a match for what I personally regarded as the best EL11 ever - ie. the (old) black glass Valvo, with *woven* mesh plate (NOT simply _stamped_). And with the added bonus of not sometimes having a slight hum depending on the powers used.

I was very lucky to find these two - one labelled 'Mullard', the other 'Philips MiniWatt' and was mighty impressed with them :



They are in fact classed as EL3N*G*...the top photo showing just how different they look to other EL3Ns and EL11s. And rarer than the proverbial hens' teeth! So you can imagine my angst when I managed to crack the Mullard while converting!! 

And just look at how wonderful a true woven mesh plate looks :




Ah well, whatever...it's going to be very interesting to see how more versatile 'old school' stacks up against 'new school' in the performance stakes when that fateful(?!) day arrives M...CHEERS!...CJ

ps. These and the Valvo plates are _oval_ as opposed to the TFK/RFT _round_ ones...


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 30, 2021)

SonicTrance said:


> Not sure what modern parts you're referring to baron? Odyssey will not have any of it. It will be an old school amp with 100% tube and OT goodness! No regulators, no gyrators, no CCS's...
> I'll build it like that to give Matt a nice contrast to his Oblivion!


Oh right, sorry I wasn't concentrating, for some reason I thought the Odyssey was basically an Infinity with all the above, PSU regulation and so on, but using cathode bypass instead of the above. Sorry for misleading anyone, it will still be very interesting to hear what UT thinks.. when he gets it in June.

Still open loop though I gather, which should be very interesting indeed!


----------



## baronbeehive

hypnos1 said:


> I was very lucky to find these two - one labelled 'Mullard', the other 'Philips MiniWatt' and was mighty impressed with them :
> 
> 
> Ah well, whatever...it's going to be very interesting to see how more versatile 'old school' stacks up against 'new school' in the performance stakes when that fateful(?!) day arrives M...CHEERS!...CJ


Indeed.. and your relapse is just waiting to happen .

So the Australian "Philips" and "Mullard" were actually better than the real thing?


----------



## UntilThen

Mighty ducks CJ, what a collection of EL11s especially the Australian EL3Ng. Although I wouldn't mind having a pair of the Valvo EL11 because they have the german steel pins I'm looking for. I do have a pair of RFT EL11 and I think one Telefunken EL11 - the middle tube in your first picture.

Nevertheless, 6SL7 will also be heavily featured in Odyssey as well as some vintage Brimar 12ax7, 12at7.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Thanks Tomas. It's 31st March today and it's getting closer.  Baron must be thinking of the Yamamoto's sockets when he said modern gizmology.
> 
> I'm always interested in contrast. The fact that the two 'O's are very different in build implementation and design gets me excited. 100% tube and OT goodness you say? By the time I'm finished spending on tubes, it will cost more than the Sowter's transformers.
> 
> In the midst of all this excitement, a package arrived yesterday... a package I had forgotten about. About 2 months ago, John Burson contacted me about testing the OP amp in my Topping D10. It didn't turn up after a long time. I surmised that it must be in the lake where Bcowen have left them. So this long weekend, I get to open up the D10 for some OP amp swapping and see if it makes a difference to my 3rd dac.


I wouldn't ever put Op-Amps in the lake. That would just be dumb.  Much more convenient to keep them in the aquarium.


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> Philips Hendon is big but it was AWV - Amalgamated Wireless Valve Co that I was thinking about. This plant was in Sydney - Ashfield and subsequently Rydalmere, which is about 5 suburbs from where I live. Tubes production in AWV plant dates back to the 1920s ..... I didn't know we have such a rich history of tube production. This article is a very interesting read.
> 
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?Company_id=18673
> 
> ...



While I am assuming that a 6SN7GT is too plebeian for your new amp, I do have a pair of WWII-era 6SN7GT manufactured by AWA (Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) Ltd). I would guess these were designed and manufactured in Australia as the construction is different than any other 6SN7GT I have seen. Unfortunately, I haven't rolled these in years, so have no idea how they sound.


----------



## DecentLevi (Mar 31, 2021)

Hey ya'al, including @hpamdr just a brief check-in to say I'm survivin', and so is my Infinity amp. But due to very personal reasons I can't engage this hobby at all until I get things turned around again. Maybe it's en-route, maybe it's being revised, maybe I'm on the road. No need to guess, it's in good hands. @UntilThen (pun intended, LOL), keep rollin' them hot setups and I'll chime in once things settle down with me.

I cannot disclose anything about my situation I'm in. For now this guy is answering for me


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> While I am assuming that a 6SN7GT is too plebeian for your new amp, I do have a pair of WWII-era 6SN7GT manufactured by AWA (Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) Ltd). I would guess these were designed and manufactured in Australia as the construction is different than any other 6SN7GT I have seen. Unfortunately, I haven't rolled these in years, so have no idea how they sound.


I wouldn’t call 6SN7 plebeian. I regard them as aristocratic tubes. 😊

I believe it’s AWV rather than AWA. I have a NOS pair of AWV 6SJ7gt for La Figaro but sold it off with the amp recently. I’ll have to start my 6SN7 collection again.


----------



## UntilThen

@DecentLevi I have to pause tube rolling for a while until and if I can get Elekit TU-8200 going again. Failing which I will have to wait for Odyssey arrival.

There’s another Mini Meet on the 4th April at my place. There will be quite a lot of gear, especially dacs and headphones. Looking forward to it.


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> I wouldn’t call 6SN7 plebeian. I regard them as aristocratic tubes. 😊
> 
> I believe it’s AWV rather than AWA. I have a NOS pair of AWV 6SJ7gt for La Figaro but sold it off with the amp recently. I’ll have to start my 6SN7 collection again.



Perhaps the name morphed over the years? These tubes have AWA clearly printed on the base. And I wonder what V-2 might mean? Anyway, I searched on AWA and came up with Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) Ltd.

And I also wonder about 'D ↑ D' hot-stamped into the  base....


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> Perhaps the name morphed over the years? These tubes have AWA clearly printed on the base. And I wonder what V-2 might mean? Anyway, I searched on AWA and came up with Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) Ltd.
> 
> And I also wonder about 'D ↑ D' hot-stamped into the base....



I'm learning about Australian made tubes as we speak. You're right that it could have morphed from AWA to AWV or the other way round. I just had a look at the 'Super' Radiotron 6SJ7gt (AWV) and 'Mullard' 6SJ7gt, both made in Australia clearly printed. 

I thought 'D ↑ D' is unique to my Radiotron 807...  I really have no clue what that means now.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I thought 'D ↑ D' is unique to my Radiotron 807...  I really have no clue what that means now.


It means 'Don't Drive.'  There wasn't room to fit "into the lake" on the base.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> It means 'Don't Drive.'  There wasn't room to fit "into the lake" on the base.


Wouldn’t the arrow be downwards?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Wouldn’t the arrow be downwards?


They were made in Australia.  Everything is inverted 180 degrees between here and there.   I'm pretty sure that's why I keep ending up in the lake.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> They were made in Australia.  Everything is inverted 180 degrees between here and there.   I'm pretty sure that's why I keep ending up in the lake.


And the lake drains counter-clockwise when it is time for tube/op-amp recovery...


----------



## UntilThen

Hahaha what jokers you are. 😀😅


----------



## Dogmatrix

UntilThen said:


> I'm learning about Australian made tubes as we speak. You're right that it could have morphed from AWA to AWV or the other way round. I just had a look at the 'Super' Radiotron 6SJ7gt (AWV) and 'Mullard' 6SJ7gt, both made in Australia clearly printed.
> 
> I thought 'D ↑ D' is unique to my Radiotron 807...  I really have no clue what that means now.



The double D is Department of Defence
AWV was a joint venture of AWADI Amalgamated Wireless Australia Defence Industries and RCA
They manufactured valves in Western Sydney starting WW2


----------



## UntilThen

Dogmatrix said:


> The double D is Department of Defence
> AWV was a joint venture of AWADI Amalgamated Wireless Australia Defence Industries and RCA
> They manufactured valves in Western Sydney starting WW2


Wow this is good info. I always knew that the pair of Radiotron 807 is missile capable.


----------



## UntilThen (Apr 1, 2021)

A flawless performance by Kyung-Wha Chung, rendered by Denon TT > Oblivion > He1000se. So good....


----------



## UntilThen

2 days before Easter, Yamamoto sockets ordered and yesterday sold off Taurus because I know I won't be using it with Oblivion around. It's literally 2 to 3 months before the commencement of Odyssey built. 

Spoke to Tony and deliberate between getting GEC KT88 or GEC KT77 + Tung Sol 6550 first. What does it matter. The aim is to get them all or at least these 3 vital tubes to make up my essential tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

The sun's coming up soon and I will be driving home to Sydney for the long Easter break. My mind's on the industrial power conditioner that Tony takes the pain to explain to me that it's better than some of the so call 'audiophile' power conditioners in the market today that is selling for more than your kidneys, heart, lungs and all organs combined. 

Tony told me this is a made in Australia power conditioner for industrial use without gimmick and flashy brand names. He told he uses 3 of them and the engineer who made these also supply them to commercial enterprise like the giant telecom company Telstra. 

And the price? Half the price of the pair of GEC KT88. Will I buy it? Well let me try to fry my egg and bacon with it. That's the test. If it fries my egg and bacon to perfection, I will buy it.


----------



## hypnos1

baronbeehive said:


> Indeed.. and your relapse is just waiting to happen .
> 
> So the Australian "Philips" and "Mullard" were actually better than the real thing?



I know I promised to curtail my addition to Tuberollers Anonymous, but you hit a tender spot there bb!  After hearing just how well it stood up to the Valvo mesh plate EL11, the fact that it did so without the very faint hum from the latter has haunted me since my careless destruction of the Mullard 'G'...I reckon the 2x Aussies could well have pipped the Valvos at the post lol!  And it just goes to show the (frustratingly) fickle nature of tube production...why should tubes supposedly made to the same _specification_ but from different factories _not_ behave the same?!! Obviously, materials used can (or _could_) vary a good bit in their quality/inherent characteristics from one factory to another. And/or I like to think that some hands and fingers possessed more 'magic stardust' than others!!  Whatever, 'MiniWatt' + 'Mullard' sure does conjure up a harbinger of something special lol...but now will never know alas ...CJ


----------



## baronbeehive

hypnos1 said:


> why should tubes supposedly made to the same _specification_ but from different factories _not_ behave the same?!! Obviously, materials used can (or _could_) vary a good bit in their quality/inherent characteristics from one factory to another. And/or I like to think that some hands and fingers possessed more 'magic stardust' than others!!  Whatever, 'MiniWatt' + 'Mullard' sure does conjure up a harbinger of something special lol...but now will never know alas ...CJ


Yes, exactly. My Philips has the same ladder plates that are common for many other brands, yet it sounds so much better... why??? How can Australia, of all countries, produce a better Mullard, wonder if UT will take the bait lol!

Maybe some special knowledge/ingredients in the menu that the chefs are not sharing!

BTW I know you are happy with your Chord Hugo TT really, why wouldn't you be when you have the letters "TT" after the name .


----------



## hypnos1

UntilThen said:


> The sun's coming up soon and I will be driving home to Sydney for the long Easter break. My mind's on the industrial power conditioner that Tony takes the pain to explain to me that it's better than some of the so call 'audiophile' power conditioners in the market today that is selling for more than your kidneys, heart, lungs and all organs combined.
> 
> Tony told me this is a made in Australia power conditioner for industrial use without gimmick and flashy brand names. He told he uses 3 of them and the engineer who made these also supply them to commercial enterprise like the giant telecom company Telstra.
> 
> And the price? Half the price of the pair of GEC KT88. Will I buy it? Well let me try to fry my egg and bacon with it. That's the test. If it fries my egg and bacon to perfection, I will buy it.



Ah UT...sounds like the sort of Balanced Conditioner I have from AirlinkTransformers over here. 'Industrial' certainly is the right word for it - to say the least!...pretty it ain't. But again, does the job brilliantly at far less cost than the prettier 'audiophile' units!! ...( not to mention appealing to my stingier side lol ). GOOD LUCK with yours M...


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> The sun's coming up soon and I will be driving home to Sydney for the long Easter break. My mind's on the industrial power conditioner that Tony takes the pain to explain to me that it's better than some of the so call 'audiophile' power conditioners in the market today that is selling for more than your kidneys, heart, lungs and all organs combined.
> 
> Tony told me this is a made in Australia power conditioner for industrial use without gimmick and flashy brand names. He told he uses 3 of them and the engineer who made these also supply them to commercial enterprise like the giant telecom company Telstra.
> 
> And the price? Half the price of the pair of GEC KT88. Will I buy it? Well let me try to fry my egg and bacon with it. That's the test. If it fries my egg and bacon to perfection, I will buy it.


I use a 3 lines industrial/medical power isolator with DC Blocker and RFI/EMI filter for my audio setup. It is not an active power conditioner which rebuild perfect sine but do the job very well !


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Yes, exactly. My Philips has the same ladder plates that are common for many other brands, yet it sounds so much better... why??? How can Australia, of all countries, produce a better Mullard, wonder if UT will take the bait lol!
> 
> Maybe some special knowledge/ingredients in the menu that the chefs are not sharing!
> 
> BTW I know you are happy with your Chord Hugo TT really, why wouldn't you be when you have the letters "TT" after the name .



We do things here better than the rest of the world. Which is why you don't hear me complaining about hiss and hums from my tubes and amps .... much.... right @mordy  ?

Except for the Sylvania 807 maple leaf that blew up with fire .... well we blame the Canadians for that. That's where it's made.

Time to pack up and go home. See you all in Sydney. Bcowen is driving. If we get past Lake George we'll be fine !

Oh here's a nice pic of Chord gear...
https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/to...nk-prowse-hi-fi/?tab=comments#comment-4732684

but not for me. I'm a Yggdrasil fan.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> We do things here better than the rest of the world. Which is why you don't hear me complaining about hiss and hums from my tubes and amps .... much.... right @mordy  ?
> 
> 
> Right!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Time to pack up and go home. See you all in Sydney. Bcowen is driving. If we get past Lake George we'll be fine !



I'll be napping most of the way, so please keep the chatter to a minimum.


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> I'll be napping most of the way, so please keep the chatter to a minimum.


I am not sure if you mean the Lake George that is 3 1/2 hours drive from me halfway to the land of the 807 Maple Leaf tube.


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> I am not sure if you mean the Lake George that is 3 1/2 hours drive from me halfway to the land of the 807 Maple Leaf tube.


I'm not sure.  I was napping the last time too.


----------



## LoryWiv

No worries. I am sure UT will be providing you with a self-driving Tesla or similar for the journey. Unless he only spends big on Tesla tubes, not vehicles for the chauffeur.


----------



## mordy (Apr 1, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> No worries. I am sure UT will be providing you with a self-driving Tesla or similar for the journey. Unless he only spends big on Tesla tubes, not vehicles for the chauffeur.



The electrical connection to UT's car is that Down Under the horse power is measured in KW.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> No worries. I am sure UT will be providing you with a self-driving Tesla or similar for the journey. Unless he only spends big on Tesla tubes, not vehicles for the chauffeur.


You don't know UT very well.  This is what he provided me to drive last time.  And that's him reaching in his wallet for the $1 (AUS) he paid me for the trip.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh gosh I've to steer the topic back to Head-Fi here lol. However I did get home finally and now to set up my music gear..... 

Traffic was heavy along the way. Everyone was trying to get into Sydney.


----------



## UntilThen

Yggdrasil, Oblivion and He1000se has travelled with me back to Sydney. I could have stop at this setup and be totally happy. On Sunday, some friends will get to hear this setup along with some McChanson's amps. They can tell me which they prefer. 

Oh I'll have He1000se and He1000v2 side by side for the first time. Going to get my friends to assist with a blind test on me... I bet I can tell which headphones I'm hearing.  

Happy Easter holidays everyone.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Yggdrasil, Oblivion and He1000se has travelled with me back to Sydney. I could have stop at this setup and be totally happy. On Sunday, some friends will get to hear this setup along with some McChanson's amps. They can tell me which they prefer.
> 
> Oh I'll have He1000se and He1000v2 side by side for the first time. Going to get my friends to assist with a blind test on me... I bet I can tell which headphones I'm hearing.
> 
> Happy Easter holidays everyone.


Fun times! =)

Happy holidays!


----------



## hpamdr

SonicTrance said:


> Fun times! =)
> 
> Happy holidays!


happy easter !


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Yggdrasil, Oblivion and He1000se has travelled with me back to Sydney. I could have stop at this setup and be totally happy. On Sunday, some friends will get to hear this setup along with some McChanson's amps. They can tell me which they prefer.
> 
> Oh I'll have He1000se and He1000v2 side by side for the first time. Going to get my friends to assist with a blind test on me... I bet I can tell which headphones I'm hearing.
> 
> Happy Easter holidays everyone.


Have a good one!

Happy Easter guys!


----------



## UntilThen

Morning Baron. I'm buying these.

https://lifestylestore.com.au/product/mcintosh-light-box/

https://lifestylestore.com.au/product/mcintosh-clock/


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Morning Baron. I'm buying these.
> 
> https://lifestylestore.com.au/product/mcintosh-light-box/
> 
> https://lifestylestore.com.au/product/mcintosh-clock/



That has some _impressive_ input flexibility.  For a clock.

But no alarm?    Deal breaker for me.  I'm out.


----------



## UntilThen

You want alarm !!! Wow this is more than a clock. 😀


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Morning Baron. I'm buying these.
> 
> https://lifestylestore.com.au/product/mcintosh-light-box/
> 
> https://lifestylestore.com.au/product/mcintosh-clock/


Nice, but you still have to find room for your power conditioner?

Reading the blurb about McIntosh room correction technology I could do with that as you can see the room isn't square. The end on the left has a concealed fireplace which I want to get rid of at some point.





No comments about the wooden rack, a tea trolley I made at school and it's still standing!!

I will post a pic of my gear lit up this evening.


----------



## UntilThen

Baron, thanks for a glimpse of your cave. I love it. It's homely ! What's that tube amp there? So you're a cyclist and a guitarist ! Love the tea trolley. 

This is my Tour De France bicycle.... the year I beat Chris Froome. Taken at my Canberra abode. A few hours more to the Mini Meet at my place.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Baron, thanks for a glimpse of your cave. I love it. It's homely ! What's that tube amp there? So you're a cyclist and a guitarist ! Love the tea trolley.
> 
> This is my Tour De France bicycle.... the year I beat Chris Froome. Taken at my Canberra abode. A few hours more to the Mini Meet at my place.


Let us know how it went!

Did you REALLY beat Chris Froome????? That must have been the year of his crash into the wall when he broke his pelvis lol.

This is the Little Dot MKVI+ with a nice glow in the dark from the super silent Evercool fans with LEDs. The pic isn't brilliant.





Hey UT, never mind the McKintosh light box, what about some fancy LED's syncing to the music, or maybe that's a bit naff?


----------



## UntilThen

How about I do this for you instead?


----------



## UntilThen

I did this for Bcowen for messing up the cart.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I did this for Bcowen for messing up the cart.



That's what my head did when I saw those GE tubes in your amp...


----------



## DecentLevi (Apr 4, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> Indeed a minefield as you say!
> 
> Maxx's review at the beginning used the Susvara, with very favourable comments on the ability of the Oblivion to drive it, so, yes bring on the shootout.. and the 300B!
> 
> ...


Interesting, I'm using a Neotech balanced cable as RCA (NEI-2001) and it's thick as a marker. Is your headphone cable gonna look more like this? But if it uses solid core wires it would be impractical for headphones and could break off from bending at the connectors. Keep me appraised. I'll need one like it, as well as a balanced one and maybe even a speaker --> headphone cable if if going that route is recommended for my amp, @SonicTrance - or would the headphone socket on either high or low have the same as speaker output? I'm thinking to go that way for any upcoming more power-hungry headphone.


----------



## baronbeehive

DecentLevi said:


> Interesting, I'm using a Neotech balanced cable as RCA (NEI-2001) and it's thick as a marker. Is your headphone cable gonna look more like this? But if it uses solid core wires it would be impractical for headphones and could break off from bending at the connectors. Keep me appraised. I'll need one like it, as well as a balanced one and maybe even a speaker --> headphone cable if if going that route is recommended for my amp, @SonicTrance - or would the headphone socket on either high or low have the same as speaker output? I'm thinking to go that way for any upcoming more power-hungry headphone.


Yes, the cable you mention looks thick with all the sleeving, and the wires are 3 different thicknesses, 22, 24 and 26AWG. That's the one I would go for unless I can get one from a seller here. The DIY cable would look like the one you linked to with 3 wires and XLR connectors if I go down that route, not much difference in price I don't think. The wires are quite thin but it would be much the same as my HiFiMan copper cable so not a problem. It would be multi stranded wires not solid, it would need to be soldered carefully to the headphone sockets to avoid the wires breaking.


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> would the headphone socket on either high or low have the same as speaker output?


Yes, high Z out on the headphone socket is the same as speaker out on your amp. It's an 8 ohm tap. So there's no need for a speaker - headphone cable.


----------



## hpamdr

SonicTrance said:


> Yes, high Z out on the headphone socket is the same as speaker out on your amp. It's an 8 ohm tap. So there's no need for a speaker - headphone cable.


I was more expecting low Z < 100 Ohm in speaker out rather than High Z.


----------



## SonicTrance

hpamdr said:


> I was more expecting low Z < 100 Ohm in speaker out rather than High Z.


It's an 8 ohm tap. Low Z is a 4 ohm tap and does not sound good with speakers as the gain is too low. The 4 ohm tap sounds great with headphones. The noise floor increases as the gain/impedance increases, so for headphones, which are sensitive, the lower impedance is better. Speakers can handle the added noise floor (inaudible) and benefits from the higher power. It's the same thing with high Z headphones.


----------



## UntilThen

What a long weekend it has been. So many activities. Days just flies and the Mini Meet is over. Still haven't time to write up about the meet. Just chilling with music now and the 300b is just sublime with He1000se.

I'm dreaming about Odyssey now.


----------



## UntilThen

A week has passed and I haven't post a thing.  Well I've been really busy with work and that's a good excuse. However I've also been very well entertained in the realm of tube amps and music. I've been using McChanson's 300b and KT150 amps a lot the whole week with various headphones, specifically He1000se and He1000v2 and He6se.

The more I listen to these old school design SET amps the more I love the tone ... because of that I'm really looking forward to *Odyssey*. I'm more excited than ever now.

That's just a pair of current production Svetlana KT88 in the amp but it sounded great with few hours in it. Rectifier is a Philips Miniwatt GZ34 f33.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> A week has passed and I haven't post a thing.  Well I've been really busy with work and that's a good excuse. However I've also been very well entertained in the realm of tube amps and music. I've been using McChanson's 300b and KT150 amps a lot the whole week with various headphones, specifically He1000se and He1000v2 and He6se.
> 
> The more I listen to these old school design SET amps the more I love the tone ... because of that I'm really looking forward to *Odyssey*. I'm more excited than ever now.
> 
> That's just a pair of current production Svetlana KT88 in the amp but it sounded great with few hours in it. Rectifier is a Philips Miniwatt GZ34 f33.


You even got an old school digitor !


----------



## OctavianH

I would be very curious to know your impressions related to new production KT88 vs NOS KT88 and also what you think about KT150.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> You even got an old school digitor !


My friend gave me that. It's cheap ! Said that is accurate to about 90%. He has one that is accurate to 95%.  In McChanson's amp, you have to change the bias for the power tubes. It's usually 50 or 60mV.

Odyssey will be auto bias.  Can't wait to sample Odyssey with Sowter transformers because McChanson's amp with chinese transformers already sounded very good.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I would be very curious to know your impressions related to new production KT88 vs NOS KT88 and also what you think about KT150.


I'll prolong buying the GEC KT88. That will be the last purchase as it's an expensive pair of tubes.  I've already sampled KT150 tubes earlier in one of McChanson's amp. I was rather surprise at how well it drives my He1000se. The mind doesn't hold memory well though because I've heard a lot of amps lately... so I need to sample KT150 again when Odyssey arrives. Lots of tubes waiting to be sampled with a brand new Odyssey. It can't get better than that.

Here's the the KT150 amp that I tried using speaker taps. Probably 2 months ago.


----------



## LoryWiv (Apr 9, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> I would be very curious to know your impressions related to new production KT88 vs NOS KT88 and also what you think about KT150.


@OctavianH I know you are an Elise owner and FWIW I tried GL KT150 in Elise driving headphones (ZMF Auteur) and it was a no go...very aggressive "in your face sound" and not very musically nuanced.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> The more I listen to these old school design SET amps the more I love the tone ... because of that I'm really looking forward to *Odyssey*. I'm more excited than ever now.



SET's are more addicting than crack.  Not that I have any personal experience with the latter, but enough experience with the former to know this is true.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> SET's are more addicting than crack.  Not that I have any personal experience with the latter, but enough experience with the former to know this is true.


Ummm I see you have Art Audio Jota HC set tube amp. Never heard of it before. What tubes is it using Bill?


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Ummm I see you have Art Audio Jota HC set tube amp. Never heard of it before. *What tubes is it using Bill?*


GE, of course!  🤣


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> GE, of course!  🤣


Hehehe.... but Bill’s Art Audio Jota is gorgeous!!!
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649119895-fs_art_audio_jota_set_tube_amplifier/

I underestimate my caddy.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Ummm I see you have Art Audio Jota HC set tube amp. Never heard of it before. What tubes is it using Bill?


Mine is the high current version that requires "special" 300B's (only made by KR and Emission Labs that I know of), but puts out close to 22 wpc.  An SET with balls.      I like the KR 300BXLS's best (tried the Emission Labs but sold them off).  Besides those, Mullard CV378 (GZ-37) rectifiers, Amperex (Holland) 6DJ8's, and Tung Sol black plate 12BH7A's.


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> GE, of course!  🤣


I'm unfriending you on BookFace.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Hehehe.... but Bill’s Art Audio Jota is gorgeous!!!
> https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649119895-fs_art_audio_jota_set_tube_amplifier/
> 
> I underestimate my caddy.


LOL!  If it helps any, I'm better at selecting amps than figuring out which driver to use on the green.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> Mine is the high current version that requires "special" 300B's (only made by KR and Emission Labs that I know of), but puts out close to 22 wpc.  An SET with balls.      I like the KR 300BXLS's best (tried the Emission Labs but sold them off).  Besides those, Mullard CV378 (GZ-37) rectifiers, Amperex (Holland) 6DJ8's, and Tung Sol black plate 12BH7A's.


That truly is one beautiful finger print magnet you got there. I love form and function.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Mine is the high current version that requires "special" 300B's (only made by KR and Emission Labs that I know of), but puts out close to 22 wpc.  An SET with balls.      I like the KR 300BXLS's best (tried the Emission Labs but sold them off).  Besides those, Mullard CV378 (GZ-37) rectifiers, Amperex (Holland) 6DJ8's, and Tung Sol black plate 12BH7A's.


A tube temple for thermionic worship !


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Hehehe.... but Bill’s Art Audio Jota is gorgeous!!!
> https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649119895-fs_art_audio_jota_set_tube_amplifier/
> 
> I underestimate my caddy.


You promoted @bcowen from chauffeur to caddy?


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> That truly is one beautiful finger print magnet you got there. I love form and function.


LOL!  You know, I've never had any issue with fingerprints unless I've moved it for some reason. I just wipe it down with a microfiber cloth every few weeks, and almost 20 years later it still looks like new.  The Jota was not my first SET, but it's quite likely it will be my last....at least for loudspeaker duties.  I'm still Jones'in for a 300B-based SET headphone amp though.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> You promoted @bcowen from chauffeur to caddy?


I have both jobs. Didn't you know?  That was the only way I could negotiate the doubling of my compensation from $1/hour to $1.50/hour (Australian math is weird).


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> I'm still Jones'in for a 300B-based SET headphone amp though.


That's gonna be MY next amp...


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> That's gonna be MY next amp...


If you get one before me, I'm going to unfriend you twice.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I have both jobs. Didn't you know?  That was the only way I could negotiate the doubling of my compensation from $1/hour to $1.50/hour (Australian math is weird).


In fact, in the foreign exchange markets the quote norm is $ USD per $ AUD.....for many other currencies, it is XXX per $ USD.....


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  You know, I've never had any issue with fingerprints unless I've moved it for some reason. I just wipe it down with a microfiber cloth every few weeks, and almost 20 years later it still looks like new.  The Jota was not my first SET, but it's quite likely it will be my last....at least for loudspeaker duties.  I'm still Jones'in for a 300B-based SET headphone amp though.


Could you build a head-yoke and just wear your speakers? Your SET will become a h/p/a. 😅


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I'm still Jones'in for a 300B-based SET headphone amp though.


I’ve been away a few hours and the caddy ran amok. At least 10 posts !!!

I love your Jota SET speaker amp and I think it's beyond compare. Perhaps you want to send it to me to test it out.

I will beat you to a 300b SET headphone and speakers amp.


----------



## hpamdr (Apr 10, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I’ve been away a few hours and the caddy ran amok. At least 10 posts !!!
> 
> I love your Jota SET speaker amp and I think it's beyond compare. Perhaps you want to send it to me to test it out.
> 
> I will beat you to a 300b SET headphone and speakers amp.


Have you seen those golden transformer cover !
This is really shinny and much brighter than any stock Sowter cover.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I’ve been away a few hours and the caddy ran amok. At least 10 posts !!!
> 
> I love your Jota SET speaker amp and I think it's beyond compare. Perhaps you want to send it to me to test it out.
> 
> I will beat you to a 300b SET headphone and speakers amp.



Hmmmm.....not sure how much it would cost to ship a gigantuan 80 pound box (that's ~36 kilo's to you) halfway around the world and back. May be cheaper for you to buy a plane ticket and come here for a listen.  I'm pretty sure you're due for a vacation anyway.

And I don't need a double-duty HP/speaker amp.  I already have the speaker part covered.  Just a nice 300B SET HP-only amp.  6SN7 drivers would be cool since I already have a bunch, or 6SL7's 'cause I have a bunch of those too, or I could make do with 12A*7's or 6922-ish's,  or EL84's.  Tube rectification is a must -- any GZ-XX will be fine, plenty of those.  One good watt into a 300 ohm impedance and I'm set.  Make it 2 watts for some headroom for the inevitable age-related hearing loss I'll experience in the next 20 years.  And if you beat me to it, do you know if there's a mass-unfriending option available?  Seems like a lot of clicking to do otherwise.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 10, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> Have you seen those golden transformer cover !
> This is really shinny and much brighter than any stock Sowter cover.


They're actually gold plated.  Seriously.  I'm sure it's a very thin plating, but I'm not gonna scratch through one to find out exactly how thin.   This was a pretty expensive amp back when it was made.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> If you get one before me, I'm going to unfriend you twice.


AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH... please.. NO.. NOT THAT.. I can feel his pain .


----------



## OctavianH

Hmm, I think this guy has some good material for your transformers. LOL

*


*


----------



## baronbeehive (Apr 10, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Mine is the high current version that requires "special" 300B's (only made by KR and Emission Labs that I know of), but puts out close to 22 wpc.



So where's your gold knob? Couldn't you afford it before you became famous .





I had to downsize the pic to get it to copy.. maybe there was much too much gold to process!!

Edit: Just looked at the spec, it looks pretty amazing, unusual tubes, and I see it has no negative feedback, like sonic's amps!


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> Hmm, I think this guy has some good material for your transformers. LOL
> 
> **



I've actually been there and seen it in the actual tomb, pretty amazing!


----------



## OctavianH

baronbeehive said:


> I've actually been there and seen it in the actual tomb, pretty amazing!



Haha, great. I have Egypt on my list. I think I'll come back with some decent RCA cables.
I'll search for the Eddie pyramid


----------



## UntilThen

I wonder whose amp Tomas is building now.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> I wonder whose amp Tomas is building now.


 I think @hpamdr knows more.  Mine is ready. I have some pictures of the pre production but I do not share as I respect a lot privacy. Ultrasonic Studios have to post it.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Hmmmm.....not sure how much it would cost to ship a gigantuan 80 pound box (that's ~36 kilo's to you) halfway around the world and back. May be cheaper for you to buy a plane ticket and come here for a listen.  I'm pretty sure you're due for a vacation anyway.
> 
> And I don't need a double-duty HP/speaker amp.  I already have the speaker part covered.  Just a nice 300B SET HP-only amp.  6SN7 drivers would be cool since I already have a bunch, or 6SL7's 'cause I have a bunch of those too, or I could make do with 12A*7's or 6922-ish's,  or EL84's.  Tube rectification is a must -- any GZ-XX will be fine, plenty of those.  One good watt into a 300 ohm impedance and I'm set.  Make it 2 watts for some headroom for the inevitable age-related hearing loss I'll experience in the next 20 years.  And if you beat me to it, do you know if there's a mass-unfriending option available?  Seems like a lot of clicking to do otherwise.


All your driver wish and rectifier wish will be fulfilled in Odyssey and more.

Not a question of if I beat you.... it’s written in the stars. The future is ascertained. There will be a 300b in my rack.


----------



## hpamdr (Apr 10, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> I think @hpamdr knows more.  Mine is ready. I have some pictures of the pre production but I do not share as I respect a lot privacy. Ultrasonic Studios have to post it.


The one that have the answer is @SonicTrance  !
Mine should be built next the current one in May.
I'm preparing a huge packet of 4 tubes and adapters for 12V tests.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I think @hpamdr knows more.  Mine is ready. I have some pictures of the pre production but I do not share as I respect a lot privacy. Ultrasonic Studios have to post it.


Yours completed? We want post production not pre production.


----------



## UntilThen (Apr 10, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> The one that have the answer is @SonicTrans !
> Mine should be built next the current one in May.
> I'm preparing a huge packet of 4 tubes and adapters for 12V tests.


Ok mine is June... the winter of the great white snow and silver linings.

June is winter for me.


----------



## hpamdr

baronbeehive said:


> So where's your gold knob? Couldn't you afford it before you became famous .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The knob is for the one with volume option using resistor network.


----------



## baronbeehive (Apr 10, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> The knob is for the one with volume option using resistor network.



Yeah I read that on the 6moons review. It looks pretty complicated, I quote from their review:


_"the Jota amplifier has been among Art Audio’s offerings for a long time. The machine is available in many different versions to be very versatile and while certain details have been tweaked over time, the core platform has remained the same for years. The amplifier is available in the following versions: power amplifier with RCA inputs; power amplifier with XLR inputs; power amplifier with volume control. The amp can be delivered with KR VV32B tubes (24wpc), KR300B-XLS (20wpc) or AVVT 320VSL (20wpc). For this review, the amp was supplied with the Aleša Vaic tubes, RCA input, attenuator and single speaker terminals.


 The Jota is a classic SET. All tubes—and there are three in the signal path—work in class A. At the input we have a E88CC double triode by Philips in the splendid SQ version (this is one of the best versions of this tube I heard), followed by a further double triode, a 12BH7A EH made by Electro-Harmonix working as cathode follower and output tube driver. The power stage consisted of the big Aleša Vaic Vacuum Tube Technology AV 320B SL. This is a derivative from the classic 300B designed to work in older VAIC amplifiers. This is what the maker stated about this now NOS tube:


 "..this is a Vaic construction named super linear anodes based on a proprietary patent. In classic tubes the ‘cold’ end of the heater introduces significant distortion. In this tube this ending is mounted in the anode in four little pits. Those pits are covered by elements containing nickel visible from the outside.


 "Those eliminate the electron flow in the anode, thus eliminating the emission from the cold end of the heater. The 16-ribbon heater shape is patented for better linearity. There are two additional big getters, the glass is thick and unbreakable, we include anti-vibration elements and the base is ceramic with gold-plated pins."_

Never heard of a tube as a cathode follower, also never heard of the Vaic technology to eliminate electron flow from the anode.

Also I see it is dual mono construction. I doubt many amps today would sound any better, Oblivion etc excepted due to the modern design elements!

Also they go into the pros and cons of high vs low power output, I would imagine this amp is at the limit of power output given that it is open loop, any more and there would be problems with parasitics and impedance although it does have very specialized hand wound OT's.


----------



## bcowen

hpamdr said:


> The knob is for the one with volume option using resistor network.


I got the cheap


baronbeehive said:


> So where's your gold knob? Couldn't you afford it before you became famous .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got the cheap version with no knob.  I'm always frugal with my audio purchases.


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> Hmm, I think this guy has some good material for your transformers. LOL
> 
> **


Why is that guy poking around his um, you know, um....private area?  Is this some kind of vintage Egyptian porn?


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Why is that guy poking around his um, you know, um....private area?  Is this some kind of vintage Egyptian porn?


Well you know he might have forgotten something vital when he was buried.


----------



## baronbeehive

... or maybe those grave robbers were poking around somewhere they shouldn't lol.


----------



## UntilThen

I have watched with great interest at Ultrasonic Studio product growth since the day Tomas contacted me on Oblivion.

Over the next 2 months, we will see some exciting amps unveiled here. I’ve personally put my energy and focus on Odyssey, discussing the design details with Tomas. Now all that is done, it’s just wait for the silver amp to appear.

In a few hours time, I will say goodbye to this amp when I returned it to @xtiva. If this is a taste of what Odyssey will be then I am all smiles.

Not only will Odyssey be coming home, but an unnamed 300b amp will also be coming home. I will remember 2021. How can I forget.


----------



## OctavianH

It would be interesting to know how many Oblivion/Citadel amps are already built. For example on F.A. amps you had that one under it and I know for example I am user no. 149.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> It would be interesting to know how many Oblivion/Citadel amps are already built. For example on F.A. amps you had that one under it and I know for example I am user no. 149.


My number is very early for Elise and Euforia before those amps were even known. Anyway I'm really going old school and I will take possession on this 'mint' condition equalizer unit in original box and manual.


----------



## OctavianH (Apr 10, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> My number is very early for Elise and Euforia before those amps were even known. Anyway I'm really going old school and I will take possession on this 'mint' condition equalizer unit in original box and manual.



It looks nice but it is above my level of patience to fix all those buttons for both channels. LOL


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> It looks nice but it is above my level of patience to fix all those buttons for both channels. LOL



You don't need to fix it. You just move the 12 bands anyway you like. You can even change the LED colours. Now Bill no touching or moving those sliders.... once I've tune it to perfection.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> You don't need to fix it. You just move the 12 bands anyway you like. You can even change the LED colours. Now Bill no touching or moving those sliders.... once I've tune it to perfection.



I have OCD and it drives me mad to know both channels might not be identical. By the way I force myself to forget about the triodes in the 6SN7.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I have watched with great interest at Ultrasonic Studio product growth since the day Tomas contacted me on Oblivion.
> 
> Over the next 2 months, we will see some exciting amps unveiled here. I’ve personally put my energy and focus on Odyssey, discussing the design details with Tomas. Now all that is done, it’s just wait for the silver amp to appear.


2 months and counting... temperature rising... anxiety... tense nervous headaches. Hope you can stay the course .


----------



## hpamdr

OctavianH said:


> It would be interesting to know how many Oblivion/Citadel amps are already built. For example on F.A. amps you had that one under it and I know for example I am user no. 149.


you are probably 149 for Elise MK II.


UntilThen said:


> You don't need to fix it. You just move the 12 bands anyway you like. You can even change the LED colours. Now Bill no touching or moving those sliders.... once I've tune it to perfection.


Equalization is not that simple, perfection is only for the current track ! 
Currently modern way of equalization is to use dynamic dsp !


----------



## OctavianH

hpamdr said:


> you are probably 149 for Elise MK II.



You think they reset the value for MK2? Was thinking I am 149 of all the Elise owners in the world.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> You don't need to fix it. You just move the 12 bands anyway you like. You can even change the LED colours. Now Bill no touching or moving those sliders.... once I've tune it to perfection.


I'll help you install it in the golf cart after you've heard the phase shenanigans and added noise in the HP rig.


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> I have OCD and it drives me mad to know both channels might not be identical. By the way I force myself to forget about the triodes in the 6SN7.



Then you need one of these to put your mind at ease.  I'm almost done with this one.  Not sure about the shipping cost to heaven though...ground service is likely unavailable?


----------



## OctavianH

bcowen said:


> Then you need one of these to put your mind at ease.  I'm almost done with this one.  Not sure about the shipping cost to heaven though...ground service is likely unavailable?



Oh God, what a devilish device. In heaven you control this with your brain like Elon Musk is doing with his monkey and you fix it to perfection.


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> Oh God, what a devilish device. In heaven you control this with your brain like Elon Musk is doing with his monkey and you fix it to perfection.



I wish someone would put the smoothie back on the end of the monkey' straw.


----------



## OctavianH

Just watched this, interesting.


----------



## UntilThen

Shipping cost to heaven..... that woke me up from sleep. Wonder if FedEx will do that express and with insurance.

and you been poking fun at my new toy have you? I will use it to equalise your pay,

oh Tomas do release photos of the next amp .................


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> Just watched this, interesting.



Interesting as you say! I found it amusing that he chose The Police Ghost in the Machine as his first demo which I regard as the worst produced CD I have ever heard, if that could make the gear sound good it must be good!

I'm sure @hypnos1 would be interested in this to upgrade his system lol.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Just watched this, interesting.



Hmmm and I thought that Odyssey and Destiny will be the last tube amps but it looks like there is still the Blue Hawaii.....


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Hmmm and I thought that Odyssey and Destiny will be the last tube amps but it looks like there is still the Blue Hawaii.....



That was exactly what I was thinking. Brrr, I like blue things. Ships, sea, tube amps. I want to try that.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> That was exactly what I was thinking. Brrr, I like blue things. Ships, sea, tube amps. I want to try that.


Don't forget Hawaiian dancers


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Don't forget Hawaiian dancers



I preserve myself for Alicia Vikander. No Hawaiian dancers for me. Here she saw for the first time Eternity:


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Hmmm and I thought that Odyssey and Destiny will be the last tube amps but it looks like there is still the Blue Hawaii.....


There is still the DIY T2 which is what the BHSE is based upon.


----------



## OctavianH

And by the way my budget for audio decreased instantly. Just found this:


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I preserve myself for Alicia Vikander. No Hawaiian dancers for me. Here she saw for the first time Eternity:



Oh gosh Alicia... Eternity will be sweet for you.  



paradoxper said:


> There is still the DIY T2 which is what the BHSE is based upon.



What in the world is a DIY T2? Anyway @bcowen will pay for this. He's got enough money now doing 2 jobs.


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> I preserve myself for Alicia Vikander. No Hawaiian dancers for me. Here she saw for the first time Eternity:


I'm suddenly looking forward to heaven.  But if you've already staked your claim, I won't be a jerk and just hope she has a sister.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> What in the world is a DIY T2? Anyway @bcowen will pay for this. He's got enough money now doing 2 jobs.



I *will* expect a bonus after installing the Akai in the golf cart for you.  It's waterproof, right?


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Oh gosh Alicia... Eternity will be sweet for you.


Hmm, that guy worries me. Alicia, never renounce on me because I have GEC NOS KT66.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Oh gosh Alicia... Eternity will be sweet for you.
> 
> 
> 
> What in the world is a DIY T2? Anyway @bcowen will pay for this. He's got enough money now doing 2 jobs.


You'll need to check out the T2 on HeadCase when they've rebooted. 
It's basically the modern, improved version of the STAX SRM-T2 which helped bankrupt the company. 

You can build one yourself for $10k the few commissions are likely to be 15k.


----------



## UntilThen

I forgot what thread I’m in now. Conversations going fast and furious and the wit is A class.

Btw I have just tested Burson’s v5i d in my very expensive Topping D10 and if I was a sceptic before about opamps, I am no longer. It sound great now !


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> You'll need to check out the T2 on HeadCase when they've rebooted.
> It's basically the modern, improved version of the STAX SRM-T2 which helped bankrupt the company.
> 
> You can build one yourself for $10k the few commissions are likely to be 15k.


Impressed. I first listened to a electrostatic headphone setup in 2016 at a local meet in Sydney. It was the early days of my foray into this hobby. @wink brought Yggdrasil, Blue Hawaii Se, Stax Sr009, 007, Sennheiser HE60. I sampled those gear to the tune of the ‘Pink Panther’ 😃. Unforgettable experience.

I will have to get my well heeled friends to invest in the DIY T2 so I can sample it.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Impressed. I first listened to a electrostatic headphone setup in 2016 at a local meet in Sydney. It was the early days of my foray into this hobby. @wink brought Yggdrasil, Blue Hawaii Se, Stax Sr009, 007, Sennheiser HE60. I sampled those gear to the tune of the ‘Pink Panther’ 😃. Unforgettable experience.
> 
> I will have to get my well heeled friends to invest in the DIY T2 so I can sample it.


Good days! Wink likely had a T2 laying around somewhere. Ha.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> Good days! Wink likely had a T2 laying around somewhere. Ha.


Oh you know Wink? I haven’t seen him for ages. Quite a guy.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Oh you know Wink? I haven’t seen him for ages. Quite a guy.


At the time, we were STAX zealots, also Wink was a funny guy. 

He did just disappear, sadly.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> At the time, we were STAX zealots, also Wink was a funny guy.
> 
> He did just disappear, sadly.



I see. Always good to meet people of like minded interest. I haven't got into Stax... yet. Don't know if I will because these other tube amps are consuming me. For some reasons, I'm just drawn to it. Wink is a likeable guy indeed. Funny and passionate about head-fi obviously.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> I see. Always good to meet people of like minded interest. I haven't got into Stax... yet. Don't know if I will because these other tube amps are consuming me. For some reasons, I'm just drawn to it. Wink is a likeable guy indeed. Funny and passionate about head-fi obviously.


“You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.”


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> “You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.”



Hahaha... I have no wish to follow you down your rabbit hole as consuming and gratifying as that is and I believe you've gone down some giant craters.  

I've always thought that the pinnacle of tube amps will be a super duper KT88 / EL34 amp or a 300b amp. Now I'm enticed with a parallel 6AS7 transformer coupled amp. I was told this is the best.... 

I'm slowly transitioning from headphones to speakers. I will not leave headphones that is for sure. It still appeal to me more. However I can see how my Axis speakers gets transformed with each new and better amp. Then of course there are dealers and friends who will entice me with excellent source, power conditioners, cables, tubes. The list goes on. It's the circle of life. Then one day you just stop and watch the lemon tree grow and bear abundant fruits.  

But until that day, I'll be patiently or impatiently waiting for Odyssey and Destiny.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Then one day you just stop...



You know this is only an urban legend, right?  It _never_ stops.  There have been reported cases of temporary remission, but none of those have ever been independently verified.


----------



## hpamdr (Apr 11, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> And by the way my budget for audio decreased instantly. Just found this:


I've tried one for a 2 hours trip and at the end of the day my conclusion is that it is a good bad idea !
It add all major disagreement of car and bike !
If you want to be safe you need to wear motorbike equipment and you cannot pass as you like as it is too large. Duo is very uncomfortable. You cannot park on small place ...
This is like a bad hybrid amplifier


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Now I'm enticed with a parallel 6AS7 transformer coupled amp. I was told this is the best....


In fact for even more pleasure, you can use 5998 Tung-Sol/Chatham tubes, bottom getter or Westinghouse 421a with this typology. For more power use the 6336a 
With Odyssey, you will run EL34, KT88, EL12Spez.. as triode at high voltage almost like a 300B with very similar response curve... You will also have ultra-linear option to get a bit more power !


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> You know this is only an urban legend, right?  It _never_ stops.  There have been reported cases of temporary remission, but none of those have ever been independently verified.


I’m an urban legend 😀 just pick up the Akai equaliser and it’s so new it’s unbelievable.

Bring on more tube amps. 😅


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> In fact for even more pleasure, you can use 5998 Tung-Sol/Chatham tubes, bottom getter or Westinghouse 421a with this typology. For more power use the 6336a
> With Odyssey, you will run EL34, KT88, EL12Spez.. as triode at high voltage almost like a 300B with very similar response curve... You will also have ultra-linear option to get a bit more power !


I’m keeping my best pair of Tung Sol 5998 for that reason. Yes you remind me of Cetron 6336b which I use in GOTL.

I’m looking forward to Odyssey. It’s going to be a blast.


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> Hmm, that guy worries me. Alicia, never renounce on me because I have GEC NOS KT66.



Looking at the latest thread images top right of the page, I wondered how this fitted in with audio lol.


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> I preserve myself for Alicia Vikander. No Hawaiian dancers for me. Here she saw for the first time Eternity:


Loved her in Ex Machina, seen it at least 3 times.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> . I haven't got into Stax... yet.


Looks like sonic might have to move into electrostatics .


----------



## hpamdr

baronbeehive said:


> Looking at the latest thread images top right of the page, I wondered how this fitted in with audio lol.


You could chose this one : 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




This make it more audio addict !


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> You know this is only an urban legend, right?  It _never_ stops.  There have been reported cases of temporary remission, but none of those have ever been independently verified.


I know, the men in white coats are coming .


----------



## baronbeehive

hpamdr said:


> In fact for even more pleasure, you can use 5998 Tung-Sol/Chatham tubes, bottom getter or Westinghouse 421a with this typology. For more power use the 6336a


Luckily UT has a taste for expensive tubes lol. I sold mine ages ago, been living off the proceeds.


----------



## hpamdr

baronbeehive said:


> Looks like sonic might have to move into electrostatics .


He will also get a pair of ESL-63 to match with the Vintage style...  _(I had those fantastic speakers 10 years ago but i had to sell as it was too fragile and my kids always wanted to go behind to hide themselves....)_


----------



## baronbeehive

hpamdr said:


> He will also get a pair of ESL-63 to match with the Vintage style...  _(I had those fantastic speakers 10 years ago but i had to sell as it was too fragile and my kids always wanted to go behind to hide themselves....)_


Wow, similar flat design to Maggies. Don't think bass comes through well with that design though.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Luckily UT has a taste for expensive tubes lol. I sold mine ages ago, been living off the proceeds.


I did sell my pair of GEC 6as7g with curve brown base which I bought from my Greek friend Stavros.... wonder where he is now.


----------



## UntilThen

About 5 hours ago, @xtiva and I tested his Kt88 amp driving my Axis LS88 and LS28. I was impressed. 12 sweet watts and it sounded better than the 150w vintage Kenwood. I have great expectations from Odyssey.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I did sell my pair of GEC 6as7g with curve brown base which I bought from my Greek friend Stavros.... wonder where he is now.


Wish I had known you had them then, I never did get to try them when I was looking for some.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> I did sell my pair of GEC 6as7g with curve brown base which I bought from my Greek friend Stavros.... wonder where he is now.



I never had the curved brown base but I have a pair of straight brown base. Does anyone know if there is a real difference between these and the "holy grail"?


----------



## UntilThen

No difference mate. They are both holy gills.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Wish I had known you had them then, I never did get to try them when I was looking for some.


I’m chasing a different GEC now. The KT88,


----------



## hpamdr

baronbeehive said:


> Wow, similar flat design to Maggies. Don't think bass comes through well with that design though.


I currently have Maggies but it is not as refined as ESL-63 in low volume. 
The ESL are actively exited and have electronic embedded and need to be powered.
Headphone comparison, ESL-63 are more like Stax and Maggies like HE1000se.


----------



## baronbeehive

hpamdr said:


> I currently have Maggies but it is not as refined as ESL-63 in low volume.
> The ESL are actively exited and have electronic embedded and need to be powered.
> Headphone comparison, ESL-63 are more like Stax and Maggies like HE1000se.


I never got them because I thought the bass would be a little light. I have Monitor Audio Silver RX1's, got on Ebay and they're very good for my purposes. On a comparison with my headphone setup they perform in a very similar way so I'm pretty happy with that. I never really wanted floorstanders because I'm not a bass head.


----------



## hpamdr (Apr 11, 2021)

Geoff Tate from Queensrÿche in Sweet Oblivion


----------



## UntilThen

Listening with Oblivion and Hekse.  
https://tidal.com/browse/album/171005813


----------



## UntilThen

Akai EA-G90 stereo graphic equalizer setup and working. I never believe in equalizers before but this has changed my bias. A unique opportunity to come across a gear so well preserved unblemished since 1981 and the seller is a gentleman.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I wonder whose amp Tomas is building now.


Lots of activity here!  
I've finished Octavians Eternity, pics will come in the next few days. I had another build booked for April but he backed out so I'm taking a few weeks off building before starting @hpamdr Eternity. I have an old Heathkit oscilloscope that needs restoring so I might dive into that


----------



## UntilThen

I'm looking forward to pictures of Octavian's Eternity. Then it's hpamdr Eternity. Then it's Odyssey ?   

Guess Sowter is still winding my transformers.... meticulously.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I'm looking forward to pictures of Octavian's Eternity. Then it's hpamdr Eternity. Then it's Odyssey ?
> 
> Guess Sowter is still winding my transformers.... meticulously.


Correct! That's the order of things!  

Yep, haven't heard anything from Sowter but they said they have a 12 week wait.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Akai EA-G90 stereo graphic equalizer setup and working. I never believe in equalizers before but this has changed my bias. A unique opportunity to come across a gear so well preserved unblemished since 1981 and the seller is a gentleman.


I won't say anything. 

Wait...yes I will:  can't wait to see the upcoming pics of Octavian's Eternity amp!


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Akai EA-G90 stereo graphic equalizer setup and working. I never believe in equalizers before but this has changed my bias. A unique opportunity to come across a gear so well preserved unblemished since 1981 and the seller is a gentleman.


Big smile equalization, this is a loudness revival !


----------



## OctavianH (Apr 12, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> Geoff Tate from Queensrÿche in Sweet Oblivion



Good catch, I've just had the time to listen to it. If you like it you can try also the new Royal Hunt one.


----------



## UntilThen

Where are the pictures!!! Or should I post another pic of the double smiley Akai that Bcowen loves.... or an open reel deck?


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Where are the pictures!!! Or should I post another pic of the double smiley Akai that Bcowen loves.... or an open reel deck?


I rather prefer @OctavianH receive his amplifier and made a detailed review about Sonic impre3ssion and rolling usage with 6H8C ribbed plate or L63 and GEC KT66, EL39, EL37, KT77, KT88, KT150.... For sure Tomas (@SonicTrance) final pics are really nice but for me less informative than user feeling


----------



## UntilThen

Well you’re not going to get impressions from Octavian for a month because he has to burn it all in. A bon fire might speed it up.


----------



## OctavianH

hpamdr said:


> I rather prefer @OctavianH receive his amplifier and made a detailed review about Sonic impre3ssion and rolling usage with 6H8C ribbed plate or L63 and GEC KT66, EL39, EL37, KT77, KT88, KT150.... For sure Tomas (@SonicTrance) final pics are really nice but for me less informative than user feeling



I will need time, and unfortunately I am not a very experienced reviewer. I do not really care about fancy words and I am not sure I will be able to provide a proper analyze at the level one might expect. I will, of course, tell you honestly how I think it sounds, but in the end, everything might be very subjective.



UntilThen said:


> Well you’re not going to get impressions from Octavian for a month because he has to burn it all in. A bon fire might speed it up.



Yes, I will need some burn in for the 6J5, however I have a lot of 6SN7 and KT* which are already prepared. But let's not forget that the amplifier itself needs around 100 hours so I guess one week is only for it regardless of the tube combos I will try.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Well you’re not going to get impressions from Octavian for a month because he has to burn it all in. A bon fire might speed it up.


Tube rolling usage does not need a month to be experimented, silence either, and impression out of the box. @SonicTrance can give an hint on time needed to have the electronic stabilized. Most of tubes have already been burned in Elise.
After a month once the ear is used to the amp is it what you call burned ?


----------



## SonicTrance (Apr 13, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Where are the pictures!!! Or should I post another pic of the double smiley Akai that Bcowen loves.... or an open reel deck?


Easy, easy there! 
I had to wait for the final part, the Eternity nameplate. That has been in customs for about two months and finally got here yesterday!

Here it is! Populated with 7581A's and 6J5's. The bias adjustments are in front of the meters. There's one meter for the input stage and one for the output stage. Then there's a toggle switch behind each meter so you can toggle between the two channels to measure the bias current.

This one also has VU meters which you can turn ON/OFF, "stock bias" switches, impedance switch, a dual triode input tube socket, teflon sockets, XLR inputs, XLR output, and an input tube selector switch.
The stock version of Eternity will use 6AV6 and 6S19P tubes.










Here you can see the size difference between Infinity and Eternity!




hpamdr said:


> @SonicTrance can give an hint on time needed to have the electronic stabilized. Most of tubes have already been burned in Elise.
> After a month once the ear is used to the amp is it what you call burned ?


Burn-in is subjective to me. Some say so many hours for this and so many hours for that.. Impossible to say IMO. There's not many components inside the amp that would require burn-in. The electrolytic caps needs to settle but there're only four of them in the amp and none is in the signal path.
I always run the amps, with signal, for 48 hours before shipping. I've had a little extra time with this one so it has over 50 hours already. I do this to build up heat inside the amp and stress it to see if there's gonna be a component failure.


----------



## hpamdr

SonicTrance said:


> Easy, easy there!
> I had to wait for the final part, the Eternity nameplate. That has been in customs for about two months and finally got here yesterday!


I hope you get more than one


----------



## hpamdr

SonicTrance said:


> Burn-in is subjective to me. Some say so many hours for this and so many hours for that.. Impossible to say IMO. There's not many components inside the amp that would require burn-in. The electrolytic caps needs to settle but there're only four of them in the amp and none is in the signal path.
> I always run the amps, with signal, for 48 hours before shipping. I've had a little extra time with this one so it has over 50 hours already. I do this to build up heat inside the amp and stress it to see if there's gonna be a component failure.


Do you use a thermal camera to see if some parts ca get too hot ? 
Does eternity/infinity needs a fan underneath ?


----------



## SonicTrance

hpamdr said:


> Do you use a thermal camera to see if some parts ca get too hot ?
> Does eternity/infinity needs a fan underneath ?


No I visually inspect. I know that nothing gets too hot as I know the dissipation of each component. The burn-in is to make sure there's no faulty components inside. It is electronics after all.

None of my amps have fans. It's been over a year since I shipped an amp with a fan.


----------



## UntilThen

Spectacular looking Eternity. You done it again Tomas. Looks great !

The beauty of a custom amp. This one done to Octavarian’s requirements. Finally all the tubes he has amassed can be put to good use in amp suitable for it.

Unfortunately this one I won’t get to sample.

Congrats both Octavarian and Tomas.

Now let the impression begin.  

P/S whatever you do please take your time with tube rolling.


----------



## hpamdr (Apr 13, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Spectacular looking Eternity. You done it again Tomas. Looks great !
> 
> The beauty of a custom amp. This one done to Octavarian’s requirements. Finally all the tubes he has amassed can be put to good use in amp suitable for it.


The design is very compact as Octavian asked and embed a lot of features. This is a great achievement Tomas


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Easy, easy there!
> I had to wait for the final part, the Eternity nameplate. That has been in customs for about two months and finally got here yesterday!
> 
> Here it is! Populated with 7581A's and 6J5's. The bias adjustments are in front of the meters. There's one meter for the input stage and one for the output stage. Then there's a toggle switch behind each meter so you can toggle between the two channels to measure the bias current.
> ...



You had to order the nameplate from far away? Would have thought that Sweden can make nameplates !

Ah 7581A.... now I know what it is. An upgraded 6L6GC. I have to try it.
https://www.thetubestore.com/tung-sol-7581a

Input tube selector switch? What's it for? Will I have it?   



hpamdr said:


> I hope you get more than one



Heh heh, he's also getting for Odyssey.  _*O d y s s e y*_.



SonicTrance said:


> None of my amps have fans. It's been over a year since I shipped an amp with a fan.



Except my priceless Oblivion. It's got a fan !!! and it's silent. But no fan for Odyssey. It's naked like the naked transformers.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Input tube selector switch? What's it for? Will I have it?



The input switch let's you populate all 3 input slots and you can switch between single/double triode. Usually amplifiers with output speakers do not have this. They have instead the OFF/Headphone/Speaker output switch. I do not have outputs so I could add this which is for me useful.


----------



## UntilThen

I see. Have gone through this with Tomas. Decided that less is more, so I won't have that input selector switch. If I have 2 x EL11 and one 6SL7, then all 3 tubes will work together. If I wanted either or, then I just remove whichever driver(s).


----------



## hpamdr

OctavianH said:


> The input switch let's you populate all 3 input slots and you can switch between single/double triode. Usually amplifiers with output speakers do not have this. They have instead the OFF/Headphone/Speaker output switch. I do not have outputs so I could add this which is for me useful.


Octavian forgotten to mention that he also have a fixed bias option so he can use single tube with manual bias and dual triode with fixed bias.. or the opposite...


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> I see. Have gone through this with Tomas. Decided that less is more, so I won't have that input selector switch. If I have 2 x EL11 and one 6SL7, then all 3 tubes will work together. If I wanted either or, then I just remove whichever driver(s).


As you have auto-bias this is ok_ (even if mixing triode is not the best imo)_. With eternity or infinity we need to adjust manually the bias to 4mA at 180V. If we have one or two triodes by side this will not be the same bias point ! The selector allows to let all preferred tubes populated and chose in one/two switches the one you run.


----------



## UntilThen

Gotcha Hpamdr. A very versatile amp this Eternity.

Meanwhile I have Oblivion powering my Axis speakers. At nearfield listening it's perfect.


----------



## OctavianH (Apr 13, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> Octavian forgotten to mention that he also have a fixed bias option so he can use single tube with manual bias and dual triode with fixed bias.. or the opposite...



Exactly, the "fixed bias" switches for both stages (input and output, on the back on the picture) commute from variable bias (what you set on the measuring points) to a fixed predefined value set in my case for KT66 in output and 6SN7/6J5/7N7 (these have same bias) in input. This is helping me a lot to roll easily because I can have in this way 2 presets of bias at the same time (for example I set KT88 on variable output and have at the pressing of a switch KT66/KT88 without needing to use the voltmeter). On input the same, the fixed bias works with 6SN7/6J5/7N7 and I can set on variable one the bias for 6N7G. In this way my life is much easier when rolling. These switches combined with the input switch allow me to have a lot of flexibility. Of course, another reason for these fixed bias were the need of simplicity, when being tired and you just want to drink a beer, you can keep your amp on the fixed bias and just try to take a break. This is why, these Input bias switches are also called by me "beer rolling on". And yep, last advantage I see is that you can combine easily for example fix bias for output (using KT66 only) with variable bias for input and just roll the inputs. Or any other combo. Seems a good feature to me even if I never saw this on any amplifier until now.

The other switch on the back is the VU meter off switch. Again need for simplicity, you can turn of the VU meters if you want silence, darkness or something like that.


----------



## Galapac

SonicTrance said:


> Easy, easy there!
> I had to wait for the final part, the Eternity nameplate. That has been in customs for about two months and finally got here yesterday!
> 
> Here it is! Populated with 7581A's and 6J5's. The bias adjustments are in front of the meters. There's one meter for the input stage and one for the output stage. Then there's a toggle switch behind each meter so you can toggle between the two channels to measure the bias current.
> ...


Take my money please!


----------



## SonicTrance

hpamdr said:


> The design is very compact as Octavian asked and embed a lot of features. This is a great achievement Tomas


Thanks! It was a challenge to fit everything on the inside, lol!



UntilThen said:


> You had to order the nameplate from far away? Would have thought that Sweden can make nameplates !


When I first started building amps I got the plates from a guy in the UK. So far everything has gone pain free with my orders until brexit happened. I probably could get plates from someone in Sweden but I want them exactly the same! 



UntilThen said:


> Except my priceless Oblivion. It's got a fan !!! and it's silent. But no fan for Odyssey. It's naked like the naked transformers.


You can disconnect the fan if you want.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Where are the pictures!!! Or should I post another pic of the double smiley Akai that Bcowen loves.... or an open reel deck?


An 8-track would be more in keeping with the genre.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Populated with 7581A's and 6J5's.



Hi Tomas, could I trouble you to tell me if Eternity with these tubes has more tube tone than Oblivion? Also what other aspects are different in terms of sound between the 2 amps ... from your recollection. I know you do not have an Oblivion with you right now. Thanks.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Thanks! It was a challenge to fit everything on the inside, lol!
> 
> 
> When I first started building amps I got the plates from a guy in the UK. So far everything has gone pain free with my orders until brexit happened. I probably could get plates from someone in Sweden but I want them exactly the same!
> ...


Just commenting on your 3 replies above. 

There must be a lot you have to fit inside the chassis. I gather that the big round hat outside of the chassis must be the oversize power transformer? So the 2 output transformers must be inside? 

It's a shame that Brexit has made it difficult to obtain parts from UK. I hope Sowter won't take too long with Odyssey's transformers. 12 weeks minimum did you say? That's 3 months. What about Yamamoto's sockets? I hope Yamamoto has it ready made.  

I could disconnect the fan (I don't know how ..yet) but there's no need right now because at 5:50 am in the morning, with no music playing and Oblivion powered on and volume to the max, I hear no noise. This is 1 year 4 months after I got Oblivion and repeatedly transporting it between Sydney and Canberra. It must be the most traveled amp.  

My impression of Oblivion has remained the same as day one. Just love this amp for it's clarity and details, slight tube tone and wide soundstage. Cool running and at 2.3w drives my Axis Voicebox S @ 5 ohms 83 dB linear for 1w at 1m, adequately in nearfield listening. Also the looks... just great.


----------



## joseph69

@SonicTrance 
You need to either center the badge on the faceplate or on top of the chassis against the faceplate for a cleaner look.


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> @SonicTrance
> You need to either center the badge on the faceplate or on top of the chassis against the faceplate for a cleaner look.


Are you suggesting this for your next custom amp? How about  300b old school from Tomas?


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> Are you suggesting this for your next custom amp? How about  300b old school from Tomas?


Unfortunately, no more anything for me from so far away.
My current amps are here to stay, and if I have any unfortunate issues Woo is a 45min drive and HeadAmp is located in Virginia.


----------



## UntilThen

Makes sense Joesph. With those 2 amps you don’t need anymore.

I will settle with a KT88 amp from Tomas and a 300b amp locally. Don’t need a solid state because Oblivion is almost my solid state. Being a tube amp person, that would be it as far as amps go for me.


----------



## DecentLevi

OctavianH said:


> I have OCD and it drives me mad to know both channels might not be identical. By the way I force myself to forget about the triodes in the 6SN7.


If you're concerned about imperfect channel matching in your system, you may be surprised to know most people have R/L hearing differences - even substantially different. Not particularly overall 'volume' differences, but variance of ability to hear certain frequencies from your right to left ears. I've tested my own hearing on several occasions and I was frankly taken aback and how poorly my left ear fairs to my right ear on _certain _frequencies.

Try this sine wave frequency sweep tool, going slowly from low to highs. A perception of a R/L shift during this test is actually down to your own hearing because the source is in mono. 
https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/

I recommend testing with a solid-state amp because imperfectly matched tubes may make a slight difference. Use headphones with low THD especially electrostatic, because sometimes frequencies above/below the human hearing range manifest themselves in the form of a physical vibration of components inside the headphone. @UntilThen may have a good solution with his physical dual channel EQ which can allow one to compensate for frequency-specific hearing differences between L/R. But it makes me balk at a much longer signal path subtracting from audio purity(?)


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Hi Tomas, could I trouble you to tell me if Eternity with these tubes has more tube tone than Oblivion? Also what other aspects are different in terms of sound between the 2 amps ... from your recollection. I know you do not have an Oblivion with you right now. Thanks.


It's no trouble and the answer is yes! Eternity will have more tube tone than Oblivion with any tubes. My balanced amps will sound cleaner than the SE amps, always.
Other differences are wider soundstage in the balanced amps but heavier bass punch in the SE amps. I have three amps I use at home. One Citadel with DHT #47 tubes for speaker only, one Citadel for headphones/speakers and one Infinity. The latter two are in my lab and when listening to headphones I prefer the Citadel and with speakers the Infinity for greater bass punch.

It's gonna be interesting to hear how your Odyssey compares to my regular amps! It should be a beast with speakers!



UntilThen said:


> There must be a lot you have to fit inside the chassis. I gather that the big round hat outside of the chassis must be the oversize power transformer? So the 2 output transformers must be inside?


Yes, yes and yes.



UntilThen said:


> What about Yamamoto's sockets? I hope Yamamoto has it ready made.


I actually got the sockets yesterday! They look great!



UntilThen said:


> I could disconnect the fan (I don't know how ..yet) but there's no need right now because at 5:50 am in the morning, with no music playing and Oblivion powered on and volume to the max, I hear no noise. This is 1 year 4 months after I got Oblivion and repeatedly transporting it between Sydney and Canberra. It must be the most traveled amp.


Just leave it if it doesn't bother you. It only good to get the air moving inside the amp.



UntilThen said:


> My impression of Oblivion has remained the same as day one. Just love this amp for it's clarity and details, slight tube tone and wide soundstage. Cool running and at 2.3w drives my Axis Voicebox S @ 5 ohms 83 dB linear for 1w at 1m, adequately in nearfield listening. Also the looks... just great.


I'm glad you still like it!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> It's no trouble and the answer is yes! Eternity will have more tube tone than Oblivion with any tubes. My balanced amps will sound cleaner than the SE amps, always.
> Other differences are wider soundstage in the balanced amps but heavier bass punch in the SE amps. I have three amps I use at home. One Citadel with DHT #47 tubes for speaker only, one Citadel for headphones/speakers and one Infinity. The latter two are in my lab and when listening to headphones I prefer the Citadel and with speakers the Infinity for greater bass punch.
> 
> It's gonna be interesting to hear how your Odyssey compares to my regular amps! It should be a beast with speakers!



Thanks for sharing.  I have a pretty good idea how these amps sound now. As for Oblivion vs Odyssey, I can imagine the contrast to be great. Add in the 300b custom amp with interstage transformers, 2021 is looking to be very exciting. I thought that 2019 with GOTL, Studio Six and Oblivion is the year where I could say I had enough of tube amps but 2021 .... I don't know what to expect.  



SonicTrance said:


> I actually got the sockets yesterday! They look great!



I didn't think that sockets would get me so excited but I am with these.  Now shoot out some pictures of it when you have the time.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> I thought that 2019 with GOTL, Studio Six and Oblivion is the year where I could say I had enough of tube amps but 2021 .... I don't know what to expect.



I'm looking forward to your 2023!


----------



## hpamdr

SonicTrance said:


> It's no trouble and the answer is yes! Eternity will have more tube tone than Oblivion with any tubes. My balanced amps will sound cleaner than the SE amps, always.
> Other differences are wider soundstage in the balanced amps but heavier bass punch in the SE amps.


@SonicTrance :
During your test for DL infinity and Octavian Eternity  and many tubes. Have you found some major tonal difference with the output different tubes (EL32, EL34, EL39, EL12spe, KT66, KT88 ). For input tube to get more flavor than 6SN7 / 6J5 did you tested e88cc or 6SL7 ?


----------



## baronbeehive (Apr 14, 2021)

Hey guys, a little diversion, well we've had many of those on this thread which I'm not complaining about. I was just wondering if anybody has heard anything better sounding re: production quality, than this. If you have I would like to know. It is 1080HD  quality on youtube whatever that is.



As a guy in the comments section said he didn't know his headphones could sound that good!

Edit: I may not need to get those 1000SE's after all! Wish all music was recorded like this, lucky B&W users!

Edit: Just looked up the audio quality setting equivalents and the 1080p is equivalent to 128kbps AAC surprisingly.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I'm looking forward to your 2023!


You do realize that after Odyssey and Destiny, I'll have no more tube amps right? It's kind of the end for me and it should be because I've great expectations for these amps, especially Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> @SonicTrance :
> During your test for DL infinity and Octavian Eternity  and many tubes. Have you found some major tonal difference with the output different tubes (EL32, EL34, EL39, EL12spe, KT66, KT88 ). For input tube to get more flavor than 6SN7 / 6J5 did you tested e88cc or 6SL7 ?


I doubt Tomas has the time to be making such observations of tonal differences between driver and power tubes. His primary objective in testing would be to run a couple of tube combinations in the new amps and see how they sound and if the amps operate optimally with said tubes. The rest is for prospective owners to experiment and give their impressions.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> You do realize that after Odyssey and Destiny, I'll have no more tube amps right? It's kind of the end for me and it should be because I've great expectations for these amps, especially Odyssey.


I'm thinking we need to start a betting pool on this.  I give you a year.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I'm thinking we need to start a betting pool on this.  I give you a year.


Two more amps as sequels come to mind: Iliad and Manifest....


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I'm thinking we need to start a betting pool on this.  I give you a year.


I won’t bet on it because there will be a 2a3 / 45 and 845 amps and you’re paying for it.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> I doubt Tomas has the time to be making such observations of tonal differences between driver and power tubes. His primary objective in testing would be to run a couple of tube combinations in the new amps and see how they sound and if the amps operate optimally with said tubes.


@SonicTrance I hope Tomas have idea and listened the amp with different tubes a bit before sending with low and high headphone..  
After all, as you said it is owner prospective test and subjective preferences. So wait for owner review....


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I didn't think that sockets would get me so excited but I am with these.  Now shoot out some pictures of it when you have the time.



Here they're! Those EL11 sockets looks very nice compared to the offerings on ebay!





hpamdr said:


> @SonicTrance :
> During your test for DL infinity and Octavian Eternity  and many tubes. Have you found some major tonal difference with the output different tubes (EL32, EL34, EL39, EL12spe, KT66, KT88 ). For input tube to get more flavor than 6SN7 / 6J5 did you tested e88cc or 6SL7 ?


I only tested Levi's Infinity with those tubes to give him, and others, operating points for them. I tested Octavians Eternity with KT66 and 7581A output tubes and 6J5/6SN7/6SL7 input tubes to make sure everything's working as it should. I'll leave any SQ differences up to you guys.



hpamdr said:


> @SonicTrance I hope Tomas have idea and listened the amp with different tubes a bit before sending with low and high headphone..
> After all, as you said it is owner prospective test and subjective preferences. So wait for owner review....


Of course I make sure everything is working as it should!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Here they're! Those EL11 sockets looks very nice compared to the offerings on ebay!


Oh gosh they look good indeed ! Even the rectifier has it's own socket and those EL156 sockets are just gorgeous.


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Two more amps as sequels come to mind: Iliad and Manifest....


Great sequels actually but I can't think of sequels now. I'm dying of excitement thinking of Odyssey and Destiny.


----------



## UntilThen

What a good suggestion Jonathan. I like the names. lliad and Odyssey. Homer wrote those epic poems. Manifest Destiny I didn't know until I look it up. It's an American history.

So in 2022, lliad could be a headphone only amp for 2a3 / 45 and that will be a sequel for Tomas. Manifest? I don't know. It has to be something unique.


----------



## UntilThen (Apr 16, 2021)

Strangely I wasn't thinking of Manifest Destiny. I was thinking of Sword of Destiny. So the sequel to Destiny is Sword and it will likely be a 845 amp. God knows why I would need a 845 amp. So the sequel is unlikely to happen. It's time I invest in some juicy headphones next year.

This is Icon Audio 845 amp.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> What a good suggestion Jonathan. I like the names. lliad and Odyssey. Homer wrote those epic poems. Manifest Destiny I didn't know until I look it up. It's an American history.
> 
> So in 2022, lliad could be a headphone only amp for 2a3 / 45 and that will be a sequel for Tomas. Manifest? I don't know. It has to be something unique.


As Horace Greeley exorted: “Go west, young man.”


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Strangely I wasn't thinking of Manifest Destiny. I was thinking of Sword of Destiny. So the sequel to Destiny is Sword and it will likely be a 845 amp. God knows why I would need a 845 amp. So the sequel is unlikely to happen. It's time I invest in some juicy headphones next year.
> 
> This is Icon Audio 845 amp.


Along the lines of Sword of Destiny, Excalibur would be a good amplifier name: mystical qualities, unlimited power, sovereignty (over other amps)...


----------



## hpamdr

jonathan c said:


> Along the lines of Sword of Destiny, Excalibur would be a good amplifier name: mystical qualities, unlimited power, sovereignty (over other amps)...


Yes but only the chosen one can exploit it. Not the one that are just in the right side of the road..


----------



## jonathan c

hpamdr said:


> Yes but only the chosen one can exploit it. Not the one that are just in the right side of the road..


Or in the left side of the road....Besides, Excalibur is not bought....it is earned....


----------



## UntilThen

Hahaha what are you talking about? Excalibur, go left, go right. Let me share a song with you. I'm listening using He1000se powered by Oblivion. Exquisite.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> Along the lines of Sword of Destiny, Excalibur would be a good amplifier name: mystical qualities, unlimited power, sovereignty (over other amps)...


Also it ended up in the lake.. . Maybe a sign!


----------



## UntilThen

In the early hours of the night, while googling randomly on tube amps, I came across Tomas's super modded Little Dot Mk Vi+ which he sold for song. I would have bought this beast ! Look at the good stuff included in the sale and the amp bears some resemblance to the current Citadel. 

Tomas, you have far too many good tubes then. I wonder how many you still have left.  

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/little-dot-mk-vi-super-modified-we421a.885848/


----------



## OctavianH (Apr 17, 2021)

Hmmm, the remark about 5998 sounding much better reminds me about the GOTL where there was a 5998 switch add-on. I wonder how much better a 5998 can sound on an amplifier built for them. I love those tubes, I have 3 pairs and I think they are the ones to be missed in Eternity.  I guess I need an amp built for them!


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Hmmm, the remark about 5998 sounding much better reminds me about the GOTL where there was a 5998 switch add-on. I wonder how much better a 5998 can sound on an amplifier built for them. I love those tubes, I have 3 pairs and I think they are the ones to be missed in Eternity.  I quess I need an amp built for them!


I've yet to be convinced because my GOTL has the boost switch for 5998 but this is too random to be discussing this. I have no wish to get into a debate with anyone on this. Just my personal experience that's all.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Along the lines of Sword of Destiny, Excalibur would be a good amplifier name: mystical qualities, unlimited power, sovereignty (over other amps)...


It needs a name that's more majestic and in keeping with the raw power of dual-845's per channel.  Maybe "I'm-A-Mean-Mother-Of-An-Amp-And-Kick-Sand-in-The-Face-of-Weakling-Wannabe-Amps," or something.  Guess it would need a pretty big logo plate though...


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Tomas, you have far too many good tubes then. I wonder how many you still have left.


I do have some boutique tubes left but also sold a bunch. I don't use them anymore though.



OctavianH said:


> Hmmm, the remark about 5998 sounding much better reminds me about the GOTL where there was a 5998 switch add-on. I wonder how much better a 5998 can sound on an amplifier built for them. I love those tubes, I have 3 pairs and I think they are the ones to be missed in Eternity.  I quess I need an amp built for them!


I actually built a Citadel with 5998/421A's. I couldn't use the 5998's as they were too noisy in that circuit. It could have just been my 5998's that were noisy but the 421A's were dead quiet in the same amp.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> It needs a name that's more majestic and in keeping with the raw power of dual-845's per channel.  Maybe "I'm-A-Mean-Mother-Of-An-Amp-And-Kick-Sand-in-The-Face-of-Weakling-Wannabe-Amps," or something.  Guess it would need a pretty big logo plate though...



IAMMOAAAKSITFOWWA.  

Hmmm what a name. Paid deposit for Destiny. Should be ready in 3 weeks time. Purchase Genalex Gold Lion PX300B because that is all I can afford for now after paying your salary.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I actually built a Citadel with 5998/421A's.


Interesting. Friend has a parallel 6as7 speaker amp and he use a pair of GEC 6as7g in it. Say it sound great !


----------



## UntilThen

Sat night and it's LP time. Vincy Fever.  Life's little joy. TT into Oblivion and He1000se or Axis Voicebox S. It's great.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Interesting. Friend has a parallel 6as7 speaker amp and he use a pair of GEC 6as7g in it. Say it sound great !


I purchased my 5998 to someone near my place building speaker amp with 6ax7 as driver, 6bx7 as follower and finally 6as7 or 5998 as power tube these were built to drive Horn speaker or anything above 100db/W 1m of sensitivity. 
I was really impressed but not ready to go into this kind of speakers.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> I purchased my 5998 to someone near my place building speaker amp with 6ax7 as driver, 6bx7 as follower and finally 6as7 or 5998 as power tube these were built to drive Horn speaker or anything above 100db/W 1m of sensitivity.
> I was really impressed but not ready to go into this kind of speakers.



I can assure you it's a great sonic presentation but don't expect bass thumping vibrations. Clarity, precision and soundstage. Borrowed my friend's photo and that is his horns. 

..and that's the parallel 6as7 with 6em7 as drivers, interstage transformers and double chokes. My 300b amp will be similar but with 300b tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

I pick up a CD player for 50 bucks. 😀


----------



## UntilThen

Now I’m rolling CD players. 😝


----------



## OctavianH (Apr 20, 2021)

Ok, as promissed. The unboxing of Eternity #1. The first piece of eternity. 

I am working now so my time is limited, however I wanted to share with you these moments since I know many asked for this. Eternity arrived today at my door during a cold rainy day. When the guy called me to go outside because the box is "quite big" I said, "yeah, whatever, I go anyway but they always complain". Well, he was rewarded to see my face when I saw it. Long story short, it almost got into the doors of my building. Yep, it seems we live here in the Shire. LOL

Anyway, just to show you my nice shoes, I will put this:





Now, just to understand the size of this box:





And inside the box quess what? Another box! And a lot of isolation, I think I can build a small house from it since it is almost the size of my wall guys.





And now, inside the second box:





Tomas is incredible at packing things, everything was tight fitted here, so I had to try 5 minutes to unbox this without destroying the isolation which might be needed if I will ever want to ship this somewhere. But, when you wish a lot, you succeed.





This is Eternity and 2 spare fuses of 1.6A and 50mA. To make a comparison with Elise/Euforia (both same size as far as I know) the small one from UltraSonic Studios ... well is not so small. I wonder what box Tomas uses for Infinity, I guess you need a trailer and an emergency exit for that one. LOL





And in the end the final placement. It has to remain here until it accomodates with the temperature from my house and then we start.





Here my small unboxing story ends. I just wanted to show you guys what you can expect when ordering from UltraSonic Studios: a new house! To fit all the boxes and isolation. But leaving jokes behind, the packing of the amplifier was absolutely outstanding. I think this was undestructible and even the small box might keep it safe during shipping. The extra box for sure makes it travel without problems in any condition. All clean, fast and nicely packed. Great job!
Regarding the amplifier, it looks sturdy and very carefully built. It has around 7Kg, I would say in the same range of Elise. Now, about its sonic capabilities, since we have here the Tube Rolling add-on I will say more, when possible, on the dedicated thread. After enough time I might come here to say a kind of summary, but I do not want to bore people with the add-on which is available only on particular versions. Over and out!


----------



## UntilThen

That's an outstanding unboxing. Your enthusiasm shows and so does Tomas's extraordinary packing. It's as good as his amps.   

However the question begs... why do you need so many pairs of shoes???

Also do stay here for a while ... while you roll in the main tubes and show us pictures and commentary on how it sound. There is no point in going back and forth between 2 threads imo.... other amp thread don't do that. It's just too distracting. Unless you want to discuss cart... like Bill.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> That's an outstanding unboxing. Your enthusiasm shows and so does Tomas's extraordinary packing. It's as good as his amps.


Yes, 10/10 from my side for packing. Top class, better than my Chord products.


UntilThen said:


> However the question begs... why do you need so many pairs of shoes???


Short answer: women. My girl has several pairs for sport, running, town and hell knows what. I have only 2 pairs there, one I forgot why I keep it there and another I use. LOL


UntilThen said:


> Also do stay here for a while ... while you roll in the main tubes and show us pictures and commentary on how it sound. There is no point in going back and forth between 2 threads imo.... other amp thread don't do that. It's just too distracting. Unless you want to discuss cart... like Bill.


Not sure if all the tries and grid bias and stuff we will need to calculate and check and so on until we understand how this circuit behaves is useful for everyone. Maybe just a summary which will come out after some weeks of usage.


----------



## hpamdr

OctavianH said:


> Here my small unboxing story ends. I just wanted to show you guys what you can expect when ordering from UltraSonic Studios: a new house! To fit all the boxes and isolation. But leaving jokes behind, the packing of the amplifier was absolutely outstanding. I think this was undestructible and even the small box might keep it safe during shipping. The extra box for sure makes it travel without problems in any condition. All clean, fast and nicely packed. Great job!


Great story, nice pictures and great shoes   !
Nice and safe packaging and the amplifier build quality seems very professional  to Tomas @SonicTrance .
Take your time, let it heat and prepare the first preset bias set of tube KT66 / 6SN7 plus (6J5 or L33) and ready for the next story


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Not sure if all the tries and grid bias and stuff we will need to calculate and check and so on until we understand how this circuit behaves is useful for everyone. Maybe just a summary which will come out after some weeks of usage.


Yes not the grid bias and fiddling but when you've slot in a set of tube like say 2 x 6J5 and GEC KT66, then show us a picture and describe in your own words how that sound... and how you like or dislike it compared to.... well the best comparison is what you have on hand... for instance your Elise OTL with those tubes that are not meant for it.


----------



## UntilThen

I remembered driving 300 kms to retrieve Oblivion in Canberra. My housemate told me that a very 'big box' has arrived for me. He emphasize BIG. I had no idea how big until I saw it. It's a box in a box. 

1st Jan 2020, I put up my impressions if it. https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/oblivion-amp-by-ultrasonic-studios.24108/reviews.

To this day, I'm still using and loving Oblivion.


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> After enough time I might come here to say a kind of summary,


Yes please do, you can't leave us all hanging after all that! No worries about the technical details but we want to know how it sounds, it certainly looks good.. all those switches and dials.. and I like the reflections in those silver knobs. You have other kit there which will help you compare? We share in  your excitement .

Re: packaging, looks like you are set up nicely for wall insulation in the cold weather.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> No worries about the technical details


What do you mean 'No worries about the technical details' ? I want to know the quantum computing behind it.  

I want to know that Bob Dylan sound like Bob Dylan and not Elvis Presley. I want to know that Norah Jones sound like Norah Jones and not Dionne Warwick.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> What do you mean 'No worries about the technical details' ? I want to know the quantum computing behind it.
> 
> I want to know that Bob Dylan sound like Bob Dylan and not Elvis Presley. I want to know that Norah Jones sound like Norah Jones and not Dionne Warwick.


Haha.. sonic's secret is out.. quantum computing lol.

So long as Norah Jones sings like she does on Little Broken Hearts I will be very happy..  and Dionne Warwick sings Walk On By .


----------



## UntilThen

I have 2 Norah Jones albums that I'm going to play tonight. Oblivion in attendance.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I have 2 Norah Jones albums that I'm going to play tonight. Oblivion in attendance.


Sounds like a great evening! She is a genuis!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Sounds like a great evening! She is a genuis!


Well I don't know why I mention Dionne Warwick but subconsciously I must have remembered what a great voice she has. Here's 4 great singers and the talents here are overwhelming ... yet amid all the great voices I think Dionne's voice stood out. So unique.  

Stevie Wonder, Whitney Huston and Luther Vandross.... I would listen to them sing whether solo or in this rare occasion as a group.


----------



## OctavianH

baronbeehive said:


> Yes please do, you can't leave us all hanging after all that!



I started, and the first impressions are very good. This is definitely not a too neutral or solid state sounding amplifier, at least with the tubes I wanted to use it. It has enough bass for me, quite good I might say, maybe even better than Elise. But the main quality is the clean sound and the tone. It is tubey up to a point, but it sounds detailed and at the same time very creamy. The GEC L63 are new and I need to let them burn in, but I can say from this point that this is a decently warm amplifier, with a very nice tone and very good clarity. And it is silent. I was not able to hear any hum or buzz or anything. It is not at all thin sounding, it has a fuller sound. I will not say more, I just wanted to give you a hint.





This combination of tubes sounds killer on electric guitars so I started, as planned, with the latest Primal Fear album. Definitely not what others might like, but for me this is the music I wanted to hear first on my new amplifier.


----------



## UntilThen

Beautiful. The first thing that caught my eye from that picture are the orange meters and silver knobs.

Would you say with these tube combination, that Elise is warmer or Eternity? Also what can you say about the soundstage.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Would you say with these tube combination, that Elise is warmer or Eternity? Also what can you say about the soundstage.



For me Eternity sounded warmer than Elise but with a better defined bass, no bloat, cleaner and more punch.


----------



## foefoe

What an amazing listening session I just had with Oblivion and1266TC/Susvara, although with Abyss I was cheating to some extent using EQ Loki to boost midrange a little bit  Nevertheless, Oblivion drives 1266TC seamlessly and offers a more engaging, seductive sound than my upgraded Woo Wa5. Fantastic combo with Susvara as well although the bass on Fleetwood Mac s/t was better controlled when I paired Oblivion with Woo. That is a stunning sounding cd with very high DR values so cranked up Oblivion was going almost full steam


----------



## OctavianH

Well, I think the night makes it justice.





And the glow, but my phone's camera capabilities have a limit. Anyway:


----------



## hpamdr (Apr 20, 2021)

Do you have an option to have 6SN7 and 6J5 heating but only one combo in the input signal  (can you chose to turn off the light for the not-used ones ?)
This is a wonderful night lamp !


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> For me Eternity sounded warmer than Elise but with a better defined bass, no bloat, cleaner and more punch.


This is important to me, clarity, definition, yet still with the tubey sound of a SET amp, sounds fantastic combination! I think the modern specs of this amp have a lot to do with this.


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> And the glow, but my phone's camera capabilities have a limit. Anyway:


You made a better effort than me with my amp and cameraphone at night!


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> For me Eternity sounded warmer than Elise but with a better defined bass, no bloat, cleaner and more punch.


Thanks. That tells me something because I have lived with Elise for 2 years and i know how the amp sound with various tubes. Liquid and slight warm.

That's why in my next amp, I am looking for more 2nd harmonic distortions and a more weighted bass. Of course everyone looking for a 'tubeier' sound would still want clarity and details. That reminds me of Auris Nirvana. In combination with LCD4 it's warm and cosy but still astonishingly clear and sweet.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> I have 2 Norah Jones albums that I'm going to play tonight. Oblivion in attendance.


The live Album "'til we meet again" is a very nice record with great sound-stage studio work is really nice !





this will be on my tonight playlist before


----------



## UntilThen

foefoe said:


> What an amazing listening session I just had with Oblivion and1266TC/Susvara, although with Abyss I was cheating to some extent using EQ Loki to boost midrange a little bit  Nevertheless, Oblivion drives 1266TC seamlessly and offers a more engaging, seductive sound than my upgraded Woo Wa5. Fantastic combo with Susvara as well although the bass on Fleetwood Mac s/t was better controlled when I paired Oblivion with Woo. That is a stunning sounding cd with very high DR values so cranked up Oblivion was going almost full steam



Appreciate your sharing. I can relate there to some extent, having had my friend's WA5le with Takatsuki TA-300b tubes for 2 weeks. Also wanted to hear Abyss 1266 TC and Susvara with Oblivion but it hasn't happen yet. Have heard Susvara on 2 separate occasions with Wa33 and Auris Nirvana but never with Oblivion.

Of course Oblivion with the 12 band Akai stereo graphic equalizer is another presentation and these days, I stop Akai from smiling so much.  75 aussie dollars from this near new Akai and I have a lot more ability to tailor the sound.

I now have the opportunity to buy a DBX EQ 1231 Dual EQ.  31 bands. Thinking...


----------



## hpamdr (Apr 20, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> For me Eternity sounded warmer than Elise but with a better defined bass, no bloat, cleaner and more punch.


This is almost what i was thinking about new generation tube amp mixed with output transformer.. I'm comforted by this design targeting a sweet spot mixing linearity, clarity and tubey sound flavor with warm presentation and controlled slapping bass.
@OctavianH can compare almost same tube combination with same dynamic headphone on elise and on March Eternity..
@SonicTrance did you measured output power of eternity and infinity High/Low ?


----------



## baronbeehive (Apr 20, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> The live Album "'til we meet again" is a very nice record with great sound-stage studio work is really nice !


I will check out that one. Reason being I prefer her live singing, that's why I like her Little Broken Hearts, I have the deluxe which has a second disk with her singing the same songs live and she gives the songs that bit more welly!

Edit: WOW what an album, just put it on and from the first hit of that double bass, to the piano, organ, and of course her voice, sensational soundstage as you say!!

.. and the visualiser on youtube is pretty insane, I thought I was seeing things!


----------



## baronbeehive (Apr 20, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> this will be on my tonight playlist before



Hey, just listening to that one, I was wondering if you like that have you heard Poppy Ackroyd? She's a pianist but combines it with very modern techno type loops!


----------



## UntilThen

Ah I need to go the gym. Norah Jones and tube amps ideas are killing me.


----------



## foefoe

UntilThen said:


> Appreciate your sharing. I can relate there to some extent, having had my friend's WA5le with Takatsuki TA-300b tubes for 2 weeks. Also wanted to hear Abyss 1266 TC and Susvara with Oblivion but it hasn't happen yet. Have heard Susvara on 2 separate occasions with Wa33 and Auris Nirvana but never with Oblivion.



To clarify, my woo is upgraded inside with some fancy elements but valve-wise I’m still using pretty cheap 300bs. Definitely want to try better ones when I’m allowed, financially


----------



## UntilThen

foefoe said:


> To clarify, my woo is upgraded inside with some fancy elements but valve-wise I’m still using pretty cheap 300bs. Definitely want to try better ones when I’m allowed, financially


Did Woo Audio do your Wa5 upgrade with fancy elements? For my 300b amp aka Destiny, I went for a first pair of Genalex Gold Lion PX300B because all the tube gurus tell me this is the best at the $500 mark. Not going for expensive 300b at this stage because I have 2 big tube amps project going on... or one going on and the other about to start. My whole focus is now on Odyssey because I know it will be good with Tomas at the helm.

The thread for my 300b amp build... there are compromises here in terms of parts used because it's a sidekick to Odyssey.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/eric-mcchanson-headphone-amp.718350/post-16307354


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Did Woo Audio do your Wa5 upgrade with fancy elements? For my 300b amp aka Destiny, I went for a first pair of Genalex Gold Lion PX300B because all the tube gurus tell me this is the best at the $500 mark. Not going for expensive 300b at this stage because I have 2 big tube amps project going on... or one going on and the other about to start. My whole focus is now on Odyssey because I know it will be good with Tomas at the helm.
> 
> The thread for my 300b amp build... there are compromises here in terms of parts used because it's a sidekick to Odyssey.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/eric-mcchanson-headphone-amp.718350/post-16307354


For the 300b (speaker amp), my German friend use Erlog new production. He compared  during a convention in Munich multiple amp and different tube sets. For him it was clear that the Erlog tube were the best choice in almost all amps. Price is high but once you have it, you are safe and no need to get multiple pairs of NOS tube.


----------



## foefoe

UntilThen said:


> Did Woo Audio do your Wa5 upgrade with fancy elements?
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/eric-mcchanson-headphone-amp.718350/post-16307354



No, it was a project carried out by the first owner. He sent it to Siberia for an upgrade. http://easytubeamp.com/woo-audio-wa5-vzglyad-snaruzhi-i-iznutri/


----------



## UntilThen

foefoe said:


> No, it was a project carried out by the first owner. He sent it to Siberia for an upgrade. http://easytubeamp.com/woo-audio-wa5-vzglyad-snaruzhi-i-iznutri/


That's an interesting read. Your Wa5 obviously had more than a facelift. Probably a full body work. I reckon, you must love your Wa5 enough to keep it for good.

As said earlier I had the Wa5le for 2 weeks courtesy of my friend. In that 2 weeks I compare it with the newly arrived GOTL. This was days just after Christmas of 2018. The Woo was appealing in the mids and any thing with vocals. With Utopia and the then original Abyss 1266 not the TC then, the Wa5 had ample power to drive the Abyss and it was sublime with Utopia and my HD800. 2 weeks over and I've forgotten about 300b once I return the Wa5 to my friend. It wasn't in my roadmap to get a 300b amp then.

It's still not in my roadmap now because I'm waiting for Odyssey.... in short Odyssey is my bespoke KT88 / EL34 super duper tube amp to be built by Tomas. However a chance encounter with McChanson's amps especially the 300 bees and I needed to get it. So this is where I'm at now. A 300b amp call Destiny is in the making and Odyssey will be built in June or July as soon as Sowter do something.... anything.. start winding the transfo ! Odyssey is a present to myself after 6 long years of Head-Fi. I had already sign up for the French Foreign Legion but here I am still tube amping. Odyssey is also a present to myself to keep calm after Bcowen drove the cart into the lake the umpteen time.


----------



## OctavianH

hpamdr said:


> This is almost what i was thinking about new generation tube amp mixed with output transformer.. I'm comforted by this design targeting a sweet spot mixing linearity, clarity and tubey sound flavor with warm presentation and controlled slapping bass.
> @OctavianH can compare almost same tube combination with same dynamic headphone on elise and on March Eternity..
> @SonicTrance did you measured output power of eternity and infinity High/Low ?





For Eternity I received this from Tomas and put it also on the first posts of the other thread:





Your description of "a sweet spot mixing linearity, clarity and tubey sound flavor with warm presentation and controlled slapping bass" is quite close to what I hear. With GEC KT66 and GEC L63 Eternity sounds warmer than Elise, cleaner and quite polite. No harshness at all. But yesterday I tried a little bit the GEC KT66 with RCA 5692 and I think that the combination removed a little bit of warmness and brought more linearity. I think I like that more, but I will not say anything else, too early, just that 6SN7 and equivalents sound quite good on this amplifier. On Elise I always combined KT66 with other tubes from 6V6 for larger soundstage and less harshness (yep, I always considered 6AS7 + 6SN7 to have some harshness on Verite Open, on T1.2 which were warmer not quite, since the signature of the headphone was masking it). But here the KT66 + 5692 might be the sweet spot, cleaner very detailed. Somebody asked me about soundstage, with KT66 seems similar with Elise with KT66 and wider than Elise stock. So it might be a thing of KT66 and not the amps. I will, of course, continue. So take my words with a big grain of salt.


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> Your description of "a sweet spot mixing linearity, clarity and tubey sound flavor with warm presentation and controlled slapping bass" is quite close to what I hear.


We look forward to any impressions down the line when  you are ready.

Your description confirms this is the amp I would go for if and when I'm in the market for another amp. My own speaker amp also corresponds quite close to your description which is why I'm happy with it but of course I don't doubt that the Eternity would be the next level up. Also I already know that around 3 watts is good for me through speakers.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> We look forward to any impressions down the line when  you are ready.
> 
> Your description confirms this is the amp I would go for if and when I'm in the market for another amp. My own speaker amp also corresponds quite close to your description which is why I'm happy with it but of course I don't doubt that the Eternity would be the next level up. Also I already know that around 3 watts is good for me through speakers.


No way. You want 11 watts from Odyssey. Speaking of slapping bass that's about to happen with a LCD4.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> No way. You want 11 watts from Odyssey. Speaking of slapping bass that's about to happen with a LCD4.


Just my 2 cents for the Tomas range: 

3W is a good value for a headphone amplifier only, especially for dynamic headphones.  (Oblivion 2.3W, Eternity 3W_ 30% more than Oblivion_)
A little more power 3-6W is a good value for very sensitive speakers and use with all kinds of headphones (Citadel or Infinity are better choices).
8-11W is for being comfortable with less sensitive speakers and excessively power hungry headphones.   ( Odissey or custom Citadel )
_I don't listen at high volume and have never liked bass that makes your couch move or your car windshield come off..._


----------



## baronbeehive

hpamdr said:


> Just my 2 cents for the Tomas range:
> 
> 3W is a good value for a headphone amplifier only, especially for dynamic headphones.  (Oblivion 2.3W, Eternity 3W_ 30% more than Oblivion_)
> A little more power 3-6W is a good value for very sensitive speakers and use with all kinds of headphones (Citadel or Infinity are better choices).
> ...


I agree, I never even get past 12oclock, let alone maxed out on my 3.5w speaker amp! The amp is OTL which I'm convinced is the reason for good bass control via output impedance. All that about  having nothing in the signal path on output is wrong IMO.

I like enough volume to get a nice staging and bass but living in a semi I can't go further than that, not living in a detached residence, castle, or palace.. despite my name lol!


----------



## SonicTrance

hpamdr said:


> Just my 2 cents for the Tomas range:
> 
> 3W is a good value for a headphone amplifier only, especially for dynamic headphones.  (Oblivion 2.3W, Eternity 3W_ 30% more than Oblivion_)
> A little more power 3-6W is a good value for very sensitive speakers and use with all kinds of headphones (Citadel or Infinity are better choices).
> ...


Both Oblivion and Citadel can be built with 5-6W speaker taps. Also the "sense" of power is quite different in the balanced amps compared to the SE amps IMO.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> I don't listen at high volume and have never liked bass that makes your couch move or your car windshield come off...


We talk in metaphors at times and I know what you mean because no bass whether produced by speakers or headphones will do that.

Oblivion at 2.3w will drive my inefficient 5 ohms 83dB Axis Voicebox S and I don't listen at high volume but I believe Odyssey with higher power output at the same given volume will have better control and body heft. Well there's only one way to find out - when I receive it.

It is the same way with headphones. Most of the amps I've tried, drives my headphones well. Such as v280, Taurus but listening to the HD650 on my previous Sansui or Kenwood produce a different sound. On inefficient headphones, it is most telling. Such as the He6se v2 driven from the KT88 or 300b amps. Or the Susvara driven by Auris Nirvana.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> We talk in metaphors at times and I know what you mean because no bass whether produced by speakers or headphones will do that.


I know this is extreme but you have device helping to go in this direction...
You can get the couch vibration using "Earthquake Quake Q10B" or similar device (I know gamer having this kind of device to feel explosion...).
About windshield you can go to an SPL car competition  
*And yes you need power to have a lot of sub-bass no way to get around... *


----------



## UntilThen

All quiet on the western front ! Where's everyone.   

Lots been happening to me... or my head-fi space. Destiny is going full steam. LCD4 will be arriving next week. I'm dying to try that headphone with Oblivion, Odyssey and Destiny or OOD. Fortunately I didn't call Odyssey - Charlie ! Or it will be OCD.

A small tweak to Odyssey. I'll have 3 inputs - 1 xlr and 2 x rca and it will be switchable with a rotary knob mounted on the back panel because the front panel is prime real estate and full !


----------



## UntilThen

@baronbeehive  is this your amp? https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/to...as-new-with-warrantyinvoice-free-au-shipping/

Please tell me not to get it because another amp is what I don't need right now.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> All quiet on the western front ! Where's everyone.


Actually I am at the beer garden. Nice weather, you know. Eternity is at home resting after 30 hours of use.


----------



## UntilThen

Ha ! Beer Garden !!! Back to your tube rolling !

I've just install Roon and everything sound better somehow..... Roon with Tidal HiFi. Think I'll carry on after the trial period.


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## baronbeehive (Apr 24, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> @baronbeehive  is this your amp? https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/to...as-new-with-warrantyinvoice-free-au-shipping/
> 
> Please tell me not to get it because another amp is what I don't need right now.


Good news.. don't get the amp.. it is not mine. HOWEVER.. this is the next upgraded version with EL34 instead of EL84 so might be a slight difference in sound. They upgraded the appearance too!

If you did really want to get it.. I didn't say that lol.. I'm sure it wouldn't be prohibitive given the cost, a few pennies compared to some amps. That's why I didn't mind spending money on upgrading it with decent caps.

I'm also outside, the weather is fine, no rain for about a month . About the same temperature as your winter I expect 

Edit: @OctavianH that beer looks mighty refreshingl

Edit: The reason the amp is so small, and does not look like a "serious" amp is because the makers used tiny surface mount components inside instead of the usual type resistors etc. However that doesn't mean the amp is a slouch by any means!


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## OctavianH (Apr 24, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> Edit: @OctavianH that beer looks mighty refreshingl



It definitely was refreshing, but let me tell you about the next one and the one after, it is always the same with beer, the next one is the best. LOL

Now I am back at tube rolling as people expect from me


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## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Good news.. don't get the amp.. it is not mine. HOWEVER.. this is the next upgraded version with EL34 instead of EL84 so might be a slight difference in sound. They upgraded the appearance too!
> 
> If you did really want to get it.. I didn't say that lol.. I'm sure it wouldn't be prohibitive given the cost, a few pennies compared to some amps. That's why I didn't mind spending money on upgrading it with decent caps.
> 
> ...



Hmmm you're not convincing enough to discourage me from getting it. Right now I don't have an amp to use those EL34, KT77 and KT66. Fingers are twitching to roll those tubes in... somewhere. 

However I should not buy it, as tempting and cheap as it is because in 3 months time, I'll be living happily ever after with 2 more gorgeous tube amps. 

The weather here in winter is perfect. Day time when the sun is shining, I am wondering why I'm stuck in my cave listening to music and fawning over tube amps... when the outdoors beckon. This morning though I'll be playing tennis and not even Jokerwitch can stop me.


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## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> It definitely was refreshing, but let me tell you about the next one and the one after, it is always the same with beer, the next one is the best. LOL
> 
> Now I am back at tube rolling as people expect from me


You still managed to take a better picture of the amp despite the booze, than I did stone cold sober lol!


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## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> You still managed to take a better picture of the amp despite the booze, than I did stone cold sober lol!



That's because with alcohol, you get more sober as you drink and then you pass out.... Don't forget to power off the tube amps before you pass out.


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## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Hmmm you're not convincing enough to discourage me from getting it. Right now I don't have an amp to use those EL34, KT77 and KT66. Fingers are twitching to roll those tubes in... somewhere.
> 
> However I should not buy it, as tempting and cheap as it is because in 3 months time, I'll be living happily ever after with 2 more gorgeous tube amps.
> 
> The weather here in winter is perfect. Day time when the sun is shining, I am wondering why I'm stuck in my cave listening to music and fawning over tube amps... when the outdoors beckon. This morning though I'll be playing tennis and not even Jokerwitch can stop me.


Then I've failed in my mission LOL!

All I can say is Maxx and I both have these amps and we were both extremely shocked when we turned them on. Now plus upgrades we're even more shocked! He has the headphone only version, mine is the speaker version like the one you linked to. Saying all that I don't want to lead you into temptation...

When you have the Odyssey all this will be a bad memory!!


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## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> That's because with alcohol, you get more sober as you drink and then you pass out.... Don't forget to power off the tube amps before you pass out.


Spoken like a true afficionado!


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## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Then I've failed in my mission LOL!
> 
> All I can say is Maxx and I both have these amps and we were both extremely shocked when we turned them on. Now plus upgrades we're even more shocked! He has the headphone only version, mine is the speaker version like the one you linked to. Saying all that I don't want to lead you into temptation...
> 
> When you have the Odyssey all this will be a bad memory!!



It is the same I felt with the Elekit TU-8200 until the flaming 807 tube consumed it. I still haven't found time to contact Victor to repair it. With Odyssey and Destiny arriving, I don't think I have time for the Elekit ! Maybe the 300b version but I already have a 300b being built !

I must say though that it's the Elekit that started me on the quest to get Odyssey. It was a taste of what's to come, especially when I heard the Telefunken EL12 spez tubes properly. I still have not been able to use the EL11s .... it's been a while since I use them in GOTL. In Odyssey, the EL11 is dedicated as one of the main drivers and I just cannot wait for that to happen. It's been 3 years since I bought and amassed these german steel pins tubes and it's been a while since I listen to the song by Berlin - Take my breathe away' !!!


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## UntilThen

Haha it's been years since I watched Top Gun and the song by Berlin.

A pic from Roon with Tidal HiFi.


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## hpamdr (Apr 24, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> II still have not been able to use the EL11s .... it's been a while since I use them in GOTL. In Odyssey, the EL11 is dedicated as one of the main drivers and I just cannot wait for that to happen. It's been 3 years since I bought and amassed these german steel pins tubes and it's been a while since I listen to the song by Berlin - Take my breathe away' !!!


@UntilThen Berlin was the project name before you change your quest for Odyssey. I've listened today EL11 and EL39 and it is a very good match in Euforia. El11 are detailed and all the spectrum seem to be dynamic and "right". El39 is currently my preferred power tube in Euforia powerful and balanced. Bass are well controlled and high clear and without emphasis. I will build adapter for El12spe as i finally got a pair measuring OK (_One tube was a bit lose on 1st pair after some measure and finally I got another one from same guy for shipping price_ _I hope to not regret my traded EL39_). I'm expecting to test and enjoy with Eternity soon.

@baronbeehive Thanks for the advise:  I listened some track of Poppy Ackroyd from resolve album. I like some track with piano but some others are too electronic for me and i miss real drums and bass..


----------



## UntilThen

Berlin was a project name which I talk about in the Glenn thread at about 2018. Even before that in Elise and Euforia thread, I was fascinated with the EL11, EL12 spez thanks to @hypnos1 . While in the Glenn thread, I experimented with outrageous tube combinations. It work but I could not live with such a monster and while it sounded great, it wasn't completely quiet. Picture shown below.

Now I'm waiting for Tomas to make Odyssey happen for these tubes what I cannot realized in Berlin. So the change of name.

I even added Siemens c3g to the mix below for a end of world experience. All this after I consulted Glenn where he told me it will work but how it will sound is another matter. Of course he wouldn't know how it sound but I do.  I didn't want this Frankenstein to live though. So that was the only time I use that amp in that manner.


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## UntilThen

This could be Odyssey theme song....


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## OctavianH (Apr 25, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> That's because with alcohol, you get more sober as you drink and then you pass out.... Don't forget to power off the tube amps before you pass out.



This kind of summer beer is very light, cannot be compared to a british ale for example, so before passing out I am sure you will get bored of it first. So be sure that Eternity was properly handled last night. I even saw Bohemian Rhapsody for the second time after turning it off. 

Regarding turning on and off Eternity, I have to make some remarks. Without any led to indicate the status, after pressing the on/off switch with VU meters off you cannot know for sure if the amplifier started except by looking at the tubes if they start to glow or waiting a few seconds to let the mA meters raise to the operating points of each stage. With chrome top tubes I guess I'll keep the VU meters on just to be sure something is happening. Of course, not big problems, let's not forget that to turn off Elise you had to find out that switch on the back which in my case was after passing the RCA inputs. So the worst position possible. LOL


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## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> I didn't want this Frankenstein to live though. So that was the only time I use that amp in that manner.


8 tubes 2 EL11 and 2 C3G in driver  and 2x2EL11 in output... I was never a big fan of tube mix in driver and even less in output ! I was always a bit skeptical on the electric balance between 2 kind of tube without same spec both biased to a non optimal point.. 
I did some experiment with external heating and I've used an adapter to have 4 output tubes only when using Fostex TH-500-RP with EL3N, 6BL7, 6BX7... to have more "juice". 
I'm not comfortable with tweaking anymore and I also stated to study another amp in 2019 with Gleen. Thanks to him to let Tomas build it !


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## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> 8 tubes 2 EL11 and 2 C3G in driver and 2x2EL11 in output... I was never a big fan of tube mix in driver and even less in output !


That was an experiment. I never said I recommend it. I said that I didn't want that Frankenstein to live.  For that matter, I'm not so fond of c3g anymore. Still have 2 pairs of those tubes. They will stay in the box. 

Get a proper tube amp build if you want to use the EL11 and EL12 spez. For Odyssey I wanted it to be very clean. The good thing about the 300b amp is you don't have to tube roll. Unless you have money to burn to roll different brands of 300b or in my case, tube rectifiers.


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## hpamdr

OctavianH said:


> Of course, not big problems, let's not forget that to turn off Elise you had to find out that switch on the back which in my case was after passing the RCA inputs. So the worst position possible. LOL


On Elise you have a led on the front that indicate if it is on or off.  And yes back switch is a non-sense for user experience !

Thomas is using a flip switch with on/off panel so it is not so difficult to see current state unless you do not have power on the plug. I could also admin that after some hours on the beer garden this little switch position is not so visible  

One of the city i prefer for light sweet beer is Köln. You have your small glass automatically refilled with fresh Kölsch no need for "noch ein" waiters do it once you glass is empty and uncovered.


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## OctavianH (Apr 25, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> Thomas is using a flip switch with on/off panel so it is not so difficult to see current state unless you do not have power on the plug. I could also admin that after some hours on the beer garden this little switch position is not so visible



Yes, not the position of the switch is problematic because the action to start is to press it so I expect you know in which position you pressed it, but during my operation of Eternity I managed to blow a few fuses. Nothing major, I just say that even if you know the switch it is in ON position in certain situations you want to know if the amplifier really started or you need a replacement fuse. 



hpamdr said:


> One of the city i prefer for light sweet beer is Köln. You have your small glass automatically refilled with fresh Kölsch no need for "noch ein" waiters do it once you glass is empty and uncovered.



They have similar pubs in several towns. My last trip to Germany was in Duesseldorf where they had such a pub with "auto-filling" beers, but the glasses they were offering were around 200ml. If I remember correctly it was this one.

One thing I really liked at UltraSonic amplifiers is the attention to details. For me, such small details are very important. For example, everything is placed and wired in such a way you will know without any problems how to operate it without any guide or marking to read. As you said, the ON/OFF switch is up ON and down OFF, then all the switches are exactly the same. Up means ON and down means OFF. Then on the back, the order of placement is perfect. For example I have 3 switches, in the order VU meters on/off, variable bias input and variable output. Exactly like the order, from front to back, of each component. I am not sure if Tomas planned in such details this, but for me it is very easy to find exactly which switch to press on the back without even looking to it. The same for the front switches, the input switch has single/double triode from left to right, same for the gain switch, low/high from left/right. Great job!


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## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Regarding turning on and off Eternity, I have to make some remarks. Without any led to indicate the status, after pressing the on/off switch with VU meters off you cannot know for sure if the amplifier started except by looking at the tubes if they start to glow or waiting a few seconds to let the mA meters raise to the operating points of each stage. With chrome top tubes I guess I'll keep the VU meters on just to be sure something is happening.



I find this amusing. A friend told me he rather not have the led light on his 300b amp. He wanted it taken off completely. That doesn't make sense to me. My 300b amp builder even ask if I wanted blue or red LED light. I chose blue against a gold front panel to give it a Shibuya crossing look. Here we have beautiful VU meters in orange glow. I see no reason to switch that off. It's like having McIntosh amps and you don't want the blue glow.

I'd say just leave the VU meters on. In Odyssey, it will be mA meters with orange glow there instead.

I'd say that with the lights off, Eternity with the orange glow from the VU meters looks great. 


and this is Shibuya crossing. I walk across that with my family in 2010. Neon lights at night fascinate me in Tokyo. Time for a 2nd visit.


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## hpamdr

_Yes usually auto-filling is for small glass .2l and cold beer.
_
About details on amp, I'm pretty sure Tomas @SonicTrance  do it on purpose. he want to make good amps for happy customer 

Did you blew output or power fuse ? If it is output, probably that 50 mA is a bit short and should be increased to 60mA ???


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## OctavianH (Apr 25, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I'd say just leave the VU meters on. In Odyssey, it will be mA meters with orange glow there instead.
> I'd say that with the lights off, Eternity with the orange glow from the VU meters looks great.



Yes, the warm orange glow is very nice and retro. This kind of warm light takes you to the 60s. I am a technical guy but for me the design of UltraSonic amplifiers is a combination of industrial steam punk with a touch of retro feeling. I like it a lot. I wanted an on/off switch for the VU meters for 2 reasons: I wanted to be sure that no noise is added to the signal by such a customization (maybe I exagerate here) and I wanted to be able to enjoy my gaming sessions in low light where I am careful about what is happening in game and do not want other distractions.

@hpamdr Yes I blew the power fuse because of a problem in my own power network which I am currently investigating. It is not a problem of the amplifier itself. The output fuse of 50mA is fine and I made a challenge to myself to never blow it. Let's see if I will be able to be so careful. Anyway, both are very easy to change so no problem.


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## UntilThen

This is Oblivion in low light, day time with blinds close. This amp still looks beautiful after 1 year 5 months. Now on hind sight I should have ask Tomas to put orange LED to match the tube glow.


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## UntilThen

Eric send me photos of the finished 300b amp and I fainted with excitement. Now to hop over the other side to update with pics.


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## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> It is the same I felt with the Elekit TU-8200 until the flaming 807 tube consumed it. I still haven't found time to contact Victor to repair it.


You might be able to get it checked out at a local TV repair shop, they would have the knowledge to check the circuitry, if not the tubes.


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## baronbeehive

hpamdr said:


> 8 tubes 2 EL11 and 2 C3G in driver  and 2x2EL11 in output... I was never a big fan of tube mix in driver and even less in output ! I was always a bit skeptical on the electric balance between 2 kind of tube without same spec both biased to a non optimal point..
> I did some experiment with external heating and I've used an adapter to have 4 output tubes only when using Fostex TH-500-RP with EL3N, 6BL7, 6BX7... to have more "juice".
> I'm not comfortable with tweaking anymore and I also stated to study another amp in 2019 with Gleen. Thanks to him to let Tomas build it !


Yeah, that's the thing it is always going to be uncertain what your are going to get in those combinations, you might get lucky and get a sound you like, but better to have an amp build for a specific set of tubes then you can have an idea in advance of what you are going to get.

The other thing is that a given tube will not necessarily sound the same in different amps due to the circuitry the amp employs and the operating point of the tube.


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## baronbeehive (Apr 25, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> and this is Shibuya crossing. I walk across that with my family in 2010. Neon lights at night fascinate me in Tokyo. Time for a 2nd visit.


I find this picture fascinating, it reminds me of Blade Runner for some reason, also Minority Report, two of my favourite films.

Edit: the way the guy in the DHC advert is watching you lol.


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## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> Yes, not the position of the switch is problematic because the action to start is to press it so I expect you know in which position you pressed it, but during my operation of Eternity I managed to blow a few fuses. Nothing major, I just say that even if you know the switch it is in ON position in certain situations you want to know if the amplifier really started or you need a replacement fuse.


Reminds me of a DAC I had which had the headphone amp on the same switch as the DAC on/off, the trouble was that max headphone volume corresponded to DAC off if I remember and it was difficult to avoid switching on the headphone on at max volume which was at truly ear bleeding levels lol.


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## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> You might be able to get it checked out at a local TV repair shop, they would have the knowledge to check the circuitry, if not the tubes.


Inside it's PCB and you can't just buy a replacement PCB. So I'll keep it till later when I have time to take it to a knowledgeable friend. The guy who build it and sold it to me. My mind's just not on it now because my 300b amp will be ready for collection next weekend. Just in time for Winter !


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## OctavianH (Apr 25, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> Reminds me of a DAC I had which had the headphone amp on the same switch as the DAC on/off, the trouble was that max headphone volume corresponded to DAC off if I remember and it was difficult to avoid switching on the headphone on at max volume which was at truly ear bleeding levels lol.



I do not want to deviate but I cannot say the same good things about my Chord products, in terms of usability. Usability for me protects you in that very moment when you are tired, maybe you think about something else and you are close to make a mistake. If a designer takes time to arrange everything in a logical way so your brain deduces the correct operation procedure without having to stop and search in your memory for the instructions he gets a lot of respect from me. I will say only one thing, when using my Chord products I always search for the PDF in my PC. That says all. They have rounded buttons, futuristic look, but markings are black on black, if I keep them in shade I barely see, all buttons are identical, some buttons have different colors but those colors do not tell me anything and if I start to think about the inputs/outputs arrangement on the back I start to have a headache. I remember when I wanted to try M Scaler with 2 Toslink inputs and they were so closely placed that my second optical cable did not have enough space to be able to connect it. As you can see below, on M Scaler the OPT IN are closer than on TT2.






I will stop here, as I said I do not want to be offtopic, just wanted to show you an example of why usability matters, and on this aspect Eternity gets full 10/10 from me.


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## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> The other thing is that a given tube will not necessarily sound the same in different amps due to the circuitry the amp employs and the operating point of the tube.


Slight difference I'd agree but a KT88 is a KT88 and will not become KT66. Base KT88 signature will still be there. It's the resultant tone that will be different. Even amongst 300b amps. Some will sound more lush and tubey and others will be more linear and dynamic. Very much determine by the amp engineer. Which you prefer is very much your preference.

Tomas's sonic footprint is in clarity, details and soundstage and that aligns with my preference. Bass is tight and controlled. In Odyssey it will be exciting to see what Tomas will turn out. Increase 2nd harmonic distortions several notches and coupled with those other attributes, I'm excited ! It will be hard to concentrate in daily life for the next 3 to 6 months.


----------



## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> Regarding turning on and off Eternity, I have to make some remarks. Without any led to indicate the status, after pressing the on/off switch with VU meters off you cannot know for sure if the amplifier started except by looking at the tubes if they start to glow or waiting a few seconds to let the mA meters raise to the operating points of each stage. With chrome top tubes I guess I'll keep the VU meters on just to be sure something is happening. Of course, not big problems, let's not forget that to turn off Elise you had to find out that switch on the back which in my case was after passing the RCA inputs. So the worst position possible. LOL


I usually only have a pilot light on amps without backlit meters as it defeats it's purpose. Your Eternity is the first amp with a ON/OFF switch for the meters 🙂


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## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> My mind's just not on it now because my 300b amp will be ready for collection next weekend. Just in time for Winter !



OK, I _officially_ hate you now.

But at least it's almost winter there, and I can put this in the shed for the season.  There's just enough room for it beside my cot.


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## OctavianH (Apr 25, 2021)

Eternity driven by a pair of Fivre 6N7G and a pair of Psvane KT88T2. The RCA 5692 from the middle just sits there to make me enjoy its red base and quite "industrial" design.
We are on single triode mode at the moment and enjoy the 6N7G triodes in parallel. Soon night will come and the VU meters will start their magic.


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## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> Eternity driven by a pair of Fivre 6N7G and a pair of Psvane KT88T2. The RCA 5692 from the middle just sits there to make me enjoy its red base and quite "industrial" design.
> We are on single triode mode at the moment and enjoy the 6N7G triodes in parallel. Soon night will come and the VU meters will start their magic.


Love the pics Octavian!


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## OctavianH

SonicTrance said:


> Love the pics Octavian!



Well, my smartphone is smarter than me, that's for sure, if it can do some decent pictures. From time to time I use the Photos app from windows to add some "romantic" filter to make the picture look more "analogue". Yeap, I am loving to see those old school pictures made at that time on film, and try to keep that atmosphere on what I post. What to say, the world evolves, humans fly on Mars but I remained at the level of using 10% of my smartphone features, listening to tube amps and still enjoying Black Sabbath. Everyone evolves at its own level. LOL

BUT! There is always a "but". I have started also to write. I am as hard working as George R.R. Martin but I do hope I will be able to write something coherent in English about Eternity. We will see if the Sixth book of the Game of Thrones series will come out faster than my review of Eternity, in the meantime, to prove my good intentions, I will show some basic notes. Of course, take this with *a huge grain of salt*, I have no idea if I really understand something about this amplifier. Time will tell, but I like it!





My procedure of writing is basically, that I have no procedure. I just listen to music, do some stuff, sometimes drink some beer, and if I have a feeling I hear something I write it. This is, for sure, the worse procedure a review can have but that's it. I have my limits. LOL


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## baronbeehive (Apr 25, 2021)

bcowen said:


> OK, I _officially_ hate you now.
> 
> But at least it's almost winter there, and I can put this in the shed for the season.  There's just enough room for it beside my cot.


You mean.. UT forces you to sleep.. IN THE SHED.. *IN A COT*, I think you should put in for a pay rise, or look elsewhere for employment!


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## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> .. humans fly on Mars but I remained at the level of using 10% of my smartphone features..


As much as that .





My procedure of writing is basically, that I have no procedure. I just listen to music, do some stuff, sometimes drink some beer, and if I have a feeling I hear something I write it. This is, for sure, the worse procedure a review can have but that's it. I have my limits. LOL

Excellent, thanks, refreshing not to have the same old reviews with the same old cr*p*y music!


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## baronbeehive (Apr 25, 2021)

If humans had evolved to use smartphones they would be growing them on the ends of their arms instead of hands.

Edit: BTW do you use speakers or headphones with Eternity? I ask because you seem to say that there is ample power on tap with Eternity. The SQ sounds fantastic for a SET amp, I particularly like what you said about the guitar sound, that's always the thing that gets me with an amp, that has to be good. Then it's other things like vocals and overall balance and extension. Looks like the new school design wins again.


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## OctavianH

baronbeehive said:


> BTW do you use speakers or headphones with Eternity? I ask because you seem to say that there is ample power on tap with Eternity. The SQ sounds fantastic for a SET amp, I particularly like what you said about the guitar sound, that's always the thing that gets me with an amp, that has to be good. Then it's other things like vocals and overall balance and extension. Looks like the new school design wins again.



Only headphones. My Eternity has no outputs, so no preamp or speakers. Just the headphones.


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## baronbeehive (Apr 25, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> Only headphones. My Eternity has no outputs, so no preamp or speakers. Just the headphones.


Right!

As a slight deviation, does it work well with M Scaler, and what is the overall impression cf Hugo TT for example? (And is the M Scaler really that good, I find it surprising frankly bearing in mind other attempts to upscale).


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## OctavianH (Apr 25, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> As a slight deviation, does it work well with M Scaler, and what is the overall impression cf Hugo TT for example? (And is the M Scaler really that good, I find it surprising frankly bearing in mind other attempts to upscale).



You have asked a tough question. I have owned in the past 2Qute, Qutest and only recently TT2 + M Scaler (less that one year). I always liked the signature of Chord DACs and I felt they reproduce better the original analogue signal than other converters. But in my case, honestly, TT2 was an upgrade to Qutest, but M Scaler did not produce a huge difference. For example, if I set M Scaler on passive mode, it sounds better than TT2 standalone, but setting M Scaler on full upscale does not bring a huge improvement. What to say, maybe I am not able to fully benefit from the upscaling tehnology or maybe I am not properly assess the benefits of this technology, but I would say yes, M Scaler is better but does not make a huge difference. At least in my system. I had a good offer to buy both, so I had no choice to make for M Scaler, and I do not regret it, I just do not see a night and day difference. It is, somehow a more coherent and focused sound, but that's it. TT2 is a great DAC, the soundstage and analoguesque sound is great (it is a warmer DAC than Qutest for example or many others). As a part of the line with Eternity, the synergy is great. I think they sound quite good together. I am not sure if I was able to properly answer, as I said, it is not an easy question.


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## baronbeehive (Apr 25, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> You have asked a tough question. I have owned in the past 2Qute, Qutest and only recently TT2 + M Scaler (less that one year). I always liked the signature of Chord DACs and I felt they reproduce better the original analogue signal than other converters. But in my case, honestly, TT2 was an upgrade to Qutest, but M Scaler did not produce a huge difference. For example, if I set M Scaler on passive mode, it sounds better than TT2 standalone, but setting M Scaler on full upscale does not bring a huge improvement. What to say, maybe I am not able to fully benefit from the upscaling tehnology or maybe I am not properly assess the benefits of this technology, but I would say yes, M Scaler is better but does not make a huge difference. At least in my system. I had a good offer to buy both, so I had no choice to make for M Scaler, and I do not regret it, I just do not see a night and day difference. It is, somehow a more coherent and focused sound, but that's it. TT2 is a great DAC, the soundstage and analoguesque sound is great (it is a warmer DAC than Qutest for example or many others). As a part of the line with Eternity, the synergy is great. I think they sound quite good together. I am not sure if I was able to properly answer, as I said, it is not an easy question.


Thanks for that, very interesting, sorry to pose a difficult question which you answered well. It has satisfied my curiosity on something I doubt I will ever own. I know it was slightly off piste but it's always interesting to use a comparison to evaluate systems. I was very curious, given the hype with the M Scaler and the supposed ability to upscale like no one else  has managed! Obviously that has implications, like for example no more need to purchase high res music if the M Scaler can do that.

I've had a love hate relationship with high res, some good, some not so good. And that demo of the B & W speakers on youtube I posted the other day was about the best I have heard, trouble is the music sounded better over my headphones coming from the B&W speakers than it did coming straight from the album on youtube, without the B&W in the path, which would be a slightly tortuous route to have go down to have to purchase the speakers and then sit next to them with my headphone amp just to get the same effect lol!

The soundstage was incredible though on my HE-500's, something I have never experienced with those headphones before.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> You mean.. UT forces you to sleep.. IN THE SHED.. *IN A COT*, I think you should put in for a pay rise, or look elsewhere for employment!



He _does_ allow me to stand 6' away and listen (you know, social distancing and all) when he's using open-design headphones, so there's that.  I'm just hoping he'll buy me a chair for Christmas so I don't have to stand.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> OK, I _officially_ hate you now.
> 
> But at least it's almost winter there, and I can put this in the shed for the season.  There's just enough room for it beside my cot.



I will probably regret this after what you did to the cart but I've decided to upgrade you to a ride on mover. Next season you get an upgrade much like tube amps upgrade... if you take care of this mini rider.


----------



## UntilThen

Octavarian, the description of KT88 vs KT66 is spot on. I have a friend who has a Ampandsound Bigger Ben and his favorite tube is the Sophia Electric KT88 in blue. He has sold off his EL34, never did buy a KT66. He does however own a Auris Nirvana as well. Hmmmm .... can't say I envy him because my amps are BETTER and I will not say IMO or IMHO or in his or hers opinion or her majesty opinion. It's just better period.

Vent finished now I'll just add that I generally like this new love affair with these big power tubes as compared to 5998 / 6as7 / 6080 or otherwise referred by me as the mid power tubes. There's just more oomph and slam in KT** tubes whatever.  Looking forward to picking up the Mustang (Tung Sol 6550) soon. This was when USA still have some credibility producing some nice NOS tubes. GEC KT88 or Tung Sol 6550 NOS - which do I prefer? Well time will tell. Maybe I will prefer the Western Electric 300B after I sell off your shed Bcowen.


----------



## hpamdr

baronbeehive said:


> Thanks for that, very interesting, sorry to pose a difficult question which you answered well. It has satisfied my curiosity on something I doubt I will ever own. I know it was slightly off piste but it's always interesting to use a comparison to evaluate systems. I was very curious, given the hype with the M Scaler and the supposed ability to upscale like no one else  has managed! Obviously that has implications, like for example no more need to purchase high res music if the M Scaler can do that.
> 
> I've had a love hate relationship with high res, some good, some not so good. And that demo of the B & W speakers on youtube I posted the other day was about the best I have heard, trouble is the music sounded better over my headphones coming from the B&W speakers than it did coming straight from the album on youtube, without the B&W in the path, which would be a slightly tortuous route to have go down to have to purchase the speakers and then sit next to them with my headphone amp just to get the same effect lol!
> 
> The soundstage was incredible though on my HE-500's, something I have never experienced with those headphones before.


About High res and up-sampling you point a sensible topic. Inside most DAC you have up sampling and fitering done already. Some prefer to bypass DAC by hardware (mScaler) or software ( SRC/..) before feeding it. the story is just to fill empty slot with guessed value. Chord claim to do it better than others, and you pay for it !
I personally do not up-sample as I think this is the job of my dac. I was never really convinced and prefer unconverted files.

About High-Res, it is a different topic as normally you get real sampling from master and no need to guess as the data is there ! But sometime you just get up sampled files, in this case you should give a look to the master used and sampling (no need to go above !)

After can you really make a difference between 192 and 384KHz sampling without audio treatment ???


----------



## UntilThen

One week, just one week more and Destiny and LCD4 will be arriving. 2 months, just 2 months and Odyssey will be arriving if Sowter doesn't go into liquidation.   

This hobby is dangerous .... last year I thought I was done with this hobby but 2021 has plunged me right back in. The thrill is exhilarating though and I rather do this then play poker or bet on a horse. 

I'm totally bias as well because I just prefer my Yggdrasil over the Chord Qutest or Hugo TT2 + M'Scalar that I audition at the shop.  and don't get me started on Lampizator because I'm allergic to tubes.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> One week, just one week more and Destiny and LCD4 will be arriving. 2 months, just 2 months and Odyssey will be arriving if Sowter doesn't go into liquidation.
> 
> This hobby is dangerous .... last year I thought I was done with this hobby but 2021 has plunged me right back in. The thrill is exhilarating though and I rather do this then play poker or bet on a horse.
> 
> I'm totally bias as well because I just prefer my Yggdrasil over the Chord Qutest or Hugo TT2 + M'Scalar that I audition at the shop.  and don't get me started on Lampizator because I'm allergic to tubes.


I'm pretty sure you like Yggdrasill V1 as it is more neutral than v2. Chord Dac gives a kind of analog sound but when i auditioned i was not ready to go into subjective description from the seller. I like transparent DAC with no hiss/bliss nor colored and prefer to give more liberty to the tube amp to give tube tune !
But I have to Admit that TT2 is a good DAC/Amp combo, but not was i was looking for.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> *I'm pretty sure you like Yggdrasill V1 as it is more neutral than v2*. Chord Dac gives a kind of analog sound but when i auditioned i was not ready to go into subjective description from the seller. I like transparent DAC with no hiss/bliss nor colored and prefer to give more liberty to the tube amp to give tube tune !
> But I have to Admit that TT2 is a good DAC/Amp combo, but not was i was looking for.



That statement in bold is not necessary true but I just haven't gotten around to verifying that. There's always another tube amp or headphone to get. Vis a vis Yggdrasil v1, I just like it from day 10 after purchasing it new in 2017. It was that good that I felt no need to upgrade. Perhaps I might like v2 more? but that's another $1200 more and if I didn't like it as much as v1 there's no going back. So my standard operative procedure is never to fix what's not broken.

I've tried my friend's Terminator recently at the mini meet at my house but it's hard to evaluate dacs that day because they (Terminator and Yggdrasil) are connected to different tube amps. However from that short listen of Terminator, I can say that I like it very much. More than my Yggdrasil? Can't really tell unless I live with both dacs for a month and can leisurely compare them with the same amp and headphone.

At this level though, determining which dac you prefer is harder than evaluating different tube amps. However I agree with you - get a neutral but analogue sounding dac and vary the tube amp and headphone to get your preferred sound signature.

Analogue sound dac you asked? Haha R2R is my preference and this where the Chord fans will shoot me down. That's ok. We can agree to disagree.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> Chord Dac gives a kind of analog sound



I'm not sure I agree with this... but anyway


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> .. Maybe I will prefer the Western Electric 300B after I sell off your shed Bcowen.


Now you've let the cat out of the bag, bcowen is likely to do a runner.. in his new motor cart .


----------



## baronbeehive

hpamdr said:


> About High res and up-sampling you point a sensible topic. Inside most DAC you have up sampling and fitering done already. Some prefer to bypass DAC by hardware (mScaler) or software ( SRC/..) before feeding it. the story is just to fill empty slot with guessed value. Chord claim to do it better than others, and you pay for it !
> I personally do not up-sample as I think this is the job of my dac. I was never really convinced and prefer unconverted files.
> 
> About High-Res, it is a different topic as normally you get real sampling from master and no need to guess as the data is there ! But sometime you just get up sampled files, in this case you should give a look to the master used and sampling (no need to go above !)
> ...


 Yes, right! It is a pet subject of mine. I actually was listening to a 320kbs mp3 shortly after mentioning that B&W youtube track and it ran it a close second, must have been a superb master as you say.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Now you've let the cat out of the bag, bcowen is likely to do a runner.. in his new motor cart .


Well, I'm currently in a state of perplexity.  I should be grateful that I'm getting a riding mower (powered even!), but I don't see any cupholders.  Thus my consternation.  Perhaps @UntilThen will run behind me holding my beer?


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Well, I'm currently in a state of perplexity.  I should be grateful that I'm getting a riding mower (powered even!), but I don't see any cupholders.  Thus my consternation.  Perhaps @UntilThen will run behind me holding my beer?


It's the least he can do, after all he needs you to mow all that rough where he always ends up in .


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Well, I'm currently in a state of perplexity.  I should be grateful that I'm getting a riding mower (powered even!), but I don't see any cupholders.  Thus my consternation.  Perhaps @UntilThen will run behind me holding my beer?



What you didn't know is that I've bought myself this and we're going to race. 500 bucks bet that I will win.


----------



## UntilThen

Monday morning here and it's a public holiday. What a day to chill back and play with Roon with Tidal HiFi. I even have Qubuz on trial. Roon is good and I will keep it. Going through all the classic rock I love growing up with. Now playing Black Sabbath that Octavarian love and it's *Paranoid*. @Zachik that's a name for your amp.  

I did not know that Black Sabbath is the start of heavy metal but it's good. Now listening to the classic *Iron Man*.

While I listen to music I'll also plan my next move on rectifiers. These are my puny stash of rectifiers. A Mullard GZ34, a Sittard GZ34, a Cossor 53ku and another Mullard GZ32. Time to grow it.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Monday morning here and it's a public holiday. What a day to chill back and play with Roon with Tidal HiFi. I even have Qubuz on trial. Roon is good and I will keep it. Going through all the classic rock I love growing up with. Now playing Black Sabbath that Octavarian love and it's *Paranoid*. @Zachik that's a name for your amp.
> 
> I did not know that Black Sabbath is the start of heavy metal but it's good. Now listening to the classic *Iron Man*.
> 
> While I listen to music I'll also plan my next move on rectifiers. These are my puny stash of rectifiers. A Mullard GZ34, a Sittard GZ34, a Cossor 53ku and another Mullard GZ32. Time to grow it.


A small cache of rectifier tubes?...that situation should be rectified immediately!


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> What you didn't know is that I've bought myself this and we're going to race. 500 bucks bet that I will win.


Where is the XLR socket for balanced cable headphones?


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Where is the XLR socket for balanced cable headphones?


It's single ended triode 300b mower mannn !!! Wait till you hear the rumble followed by the Tsunami. Incidentally both Odyssey and Destiny are SET which is the sweetest and filled with old school goodness. 

I think my Oblivion is semi balanced, Tomas?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> What you didn't know is that I've bought myself this and we're going to race. 500 bucks bet that I will win.


You're on.  I bought this with all the $2/hr I saved up (oh, and a $45k loan).  Winner gets your 300B amp.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> You're on. I bought this with all the $2/hr I saved up (oh, and a $45k loan). Winner gets your 300B amp.



You want my Destiny?


No way I'm losing the race. Just bought a F35 Raptor.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> No way I'm losing the race. Just bought a F35 Raptor.



Cheater.  Fine.  I just bought this.  Going to need some overtime though kind of ASAP. Please?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Cheater. Fine. I just bought this. Going to need some overtime though kind of ASAP. Please?



Overtime authorized. That spacecraft just brought tears to my eyes. Now for Destiny theme song sung by none other than Lionel Richie. My eyes is just fixated on the drop dead gorgeous female Indian dancer. Curvy like the 300b tube. What a sight. Lionel's singing is a distraction !


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Now playing Black Sabbath that Octavarian love and it's *Paranoid*. @Zachik that's a name for your amp.


Name my next amp: Paranoid?  No way!!
With a name like that - I won't sleep, won't eat, hide myself (and the amp) in a dark cave...


----------



## UntilThen

Dang I was too late to this preamp beauty.... I should save up to get a new one. Right @leftside ? Did you get yours?


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Name my next amp: Paranoid?  No way!!
> With a name like that - I won't sleep, won't eat, hide myself (and the amp) in a dark cave...



Thought I was looking at Bcowen !!!


----------



## UntilThen

Now a serious question. I was given a choice of different type of 6EM7 as driver tubes for Destiny. 

Should I get a pair of Zenith (Sylvania) 6EM7 coinbase with black plates or a tall base GE 6EM7 with grey plates?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Thought I was looking at Bcowen !!!


I only look like that until I've had my first cup of coffee.


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> You're on.  I bought this with all the $2/hr I saved up (oh, and a $45k loan).  Winner gets your 300B amp.


That thing is good for 150mph:
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/go...18/watch-150mph-honda-lawnmower-race-goodwood


----------



## leftside (Apr 25, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Dang I was too late to this preamp beauty.... I should save up to get a new one. Right @leftside ? Did you get yours?


Yes mate. Love it. Mick is great to deal with.

I'm also thinking of getting that exact model in your post for the living room later in the year. I purchased the Cortese LCR. The phono stage and preamp are amazing. Yes, beat my McIntosh C500T which I sold. The preamp section of the Cortese is my profile picture on here.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Yes mate. Love it. Mick is great to deal with.
> 
> I'm also thinking of getting that exact model in your post for the living room later in the year. I purchased the Cortese LCR. The phono stage and preamp are amazing. Yes, beat my McIntosh C500T which I sold. The preamp section of the Cortese is my profile picture on here.



Nice ! Something in my backyard and I didn't know about it. Mick's gear visual looks is outstanding.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I think my Oblivion is semi balanced, Tomas?


The output is completely, 100%, balanced. The input stage is SE. So, I guess you could call it that


----------



## UntilThen

Been using LCD-3f with Oblivion today and I'm just amazed at how good it sound. So eager to try out LCD4 with Oblivion. Time will tell if I sell off the LCD-3f but it sound too good to give up.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Been using LCD-3f with Oblivion today and I'm just amazed at how good it sound. So eager to try out LCD4 with Oblivion. Time will tell if I sell off the LCD-3f but it sound too good to give up.


It's an amazing headphone! Ive been using mine more and more lately as well!


----------



## UntilThen

Stop me from buying this dual channel 31 bands DBX 1231 graphic equalizer because I'm about to do itttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> It's an amazing headphone! Ive been using mine more and more lately as well!



Tomas, it's time you 'upgrade' to LCD4 and get a He1000se because you will hear everythinggggggggggggg, especially with your amps.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Stop me from buying this dual channel 31 bands DBX 1231 graphic equalizer because I'm about to do itttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.


What a wasteful design... The circled sliders: (controlling 200Hz and below)





Are not needed. Should always be at "MAX" position and never touched!!


----------



## mordy

Zachik said:


> What a wasteful design... The circled sliders: (controlling 200Hz and below)
> 
> 
> 
> Are not needed. Should always be at "MAX" position and never touched!!


Reminds me of this Soundscraftsmen PE-2217 preamp-equilizer that I bought new in 1974 (sold a long time ago). It was labeled as a "near perfect audio device" in a review.



It was extremely versatile with ten octave sliders for each channel and individual gain settings for each channel.
I remember fiddling with it and spending a lot of time to get the perceived best sound only to find out that if I pushed the defeat button it sounded better lol....


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> Been using LCD-3f with Oblivion today and I'm just amazed at how good it sound. So eager to try out LCD4 with Oblivion. Time will tell if I sell off the LCD-3f but it sound too good to give up.


I think you'll find them too similar to keep both. They are both great, but I found the LCD4 to be a slightly better LCD3. The more powerful amp you have to throw at the LCD4 the better. Harder to drive than the LCD3, and the LCD3 are not exactly easy to drive. I think the LCD4 would get glowing reviews from everyone if everyone was using decent amps with them. Should sound super sweet with one of the amps from Ultrasonic!


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Are not needed. Should always be at "MAX" position and never touched!!





mordy said:


> It was extremely versatile with ten octave sliders for each channel and individual gain settings for each channel.
> I remember fiddling with it and spending a lot of time to get the perceived best sound only to find out that if I pushed the defeat button it sounded better lol....



The wise sages have spoken and I will listen.  Was going to buy it but then I remember Odyssey design principles. KISS. Keep it simple stupid.  For the first time, advice from Head-Fi folks have been worthwhile.  Now I will also sell off the Akai which is only $75 anyway and it's like new. The less I fiddle with the better.

Now I will save $300 which will go to buy a nice rectifier - a 596 with 2 heads !!! 

So another question - should I buy a tube rectifier with 2 heads or a Sophia Electric 274b with mesh plates - the Sophia is for 300b and the 596 for the KT88 amp? 

I think the 596 and the Woo white and silver adapter will be a killer combination with the silver Odyssey.





leftside said:


> I think you'll find them too similar to keep both. They are both great, but I found the LCD4 to be a slightly better LCD3. The more powerful amp you have to throw at the LCD4 the better. Harder to drive than the LCD3, and the LCD3 are not exactly easy to drive. I think the LCD4 would get glowing reviews from everyone if everyone was using decent amps with them. Should sound super sweet with one of the amps from Ultrasonic!



Thanks Leftside. I will sell off the LCD-3f at a reasonable price to the next recipient who will enjoy it. Sadly I have just change the metal yoke, the suspension headband and the original Audeze leather earpads. Half of the headphone is new. 

My amps .... the OOD .... will have more than enough power to baby sit even Susvara, so I think LCD4 will definitely be ok. That said , I acknowledge that at 200 ohms it does need a good power amp to drive it. When I heard LCD4 at the shop with Auris Nirvana, that gave me goosebumps and set the course of my amps revamped. I sold off Questyle CMA 12, Schiit Mjolnir 2, Violectric v280, SMSL Sp200, Auralic Taurus Mk2 and La Figaro 339i and Elekit TU-8500 to be replaced by Odyssey and Destiny and that decision happened in the last 2 months. 

4 more days to getting Destiny and getting close to the build commencement of Odyssey. I'm excited no less.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Tomas, it's time you 'upgrade' to LCD4 and get a He1000se because you will hear everythinggggggggggggg, especially with your amps.


He is a LCD man, not a HiFiMan, I'm the HiFiMan around here apart from your goodself!


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Cheater.  Fine.  I just bought this.  Going to need some overtime though kind of ASAP. Please?


First wormhole on the left, then second right, and you win hands down!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> He is a LCD man, not a HiFiMan, I'm the HiFiMan around here apart from your goodself!



I'm actually both. After He1000se and LCD4, that would be it. Would I consider Susvara and Abyss 1266 TC? Ask me next year and I will tell you.


----------



## baronbeehive (Apr 26, 2021)

@bcowen  A side effect of your space travel at the speed of light, you come back looking 20 years younger ,no longer looking like Gollum on a bad day!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> The wise sages have spoken and I will listen.  Was going to buy it but then I remember Odyssey design principles. KISS. Keep it simple stupid.  For the first time, advice from Head-Fi folks have been worthwhile.  Now I will also sell off the Akai which is only $75 anyway and it's like new. The less I fiddle with the better.
> 
> Now I will save $300 which will go to buy a nice rectifier - a 596 with 2 heads !!!
> 
> ...


Be sure to touch those top caps every now and then with your fingers (preferably moistened) to be sure they aren't getting too hot.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Be sure to touch those top caps every now and then with your fingers (preferably moistened) to be sure they aren't getting too hot.



I hope there are no underage viewers here because you're getting to borderline dangerous. 

BUT I will touch the top caps. Who can resist it.


----------



## OctavianH

Tractors, airplanes, spaceships and moistened caps. What would you want more:


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Tractors, airplanes, spaceships and moistened caps. What would you want more:



I just want Odyssey in sterling silver.


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> Tractors, airplanes, spaceships and moistened caps. What would you want more:



We already have an alien.  Goes by @UntilThen .


----------



## UntilThen

You got it wrong Bcowen. There’s aliens vs predator and my monitor is Acer Predator. 😎


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I just want Odyssey in sterling silver.


.. and a couple of gold knobs wouldn't look out of place


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> .. and a couple of gold knobs wouldn't look out of place



You know the song lyrics 'Silver thread and golden needles'? That's written by some sewing fanatic. Silver and gold don't go together but I wouldn't mind putting real silver and real gold in the same crate. No problem at all. Just give them to me.

Have you look at Apple Macs, iPads and iPhones and marvel that they look simple and nice? That's because Jony Iver don't mix silver and gold.


----------



## UntilThen

Now this is a look I won't mind having. I'll get Tomas to make it for me next. I'll call it David Copperfield.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Now this is a look I won't mind having. I'll get Tomas to make it for me next. I'll call it David Copperfield.


This remind me some Italian expresso machine. Wood an copper is something I like a lot (not in my shelf)


----------



## baronbeehive (Apr 28, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> You know the song lyrics 'Silver thread and golden needles'? That's written by some sewing fanatic. Silver and gold don't go together but I wouldn't mind putting real silver and real gold in the same crate. No problem at all. Just give them to me.
> 
> Have you look at Apple Macs, iPads and iPhones and marvel that they look simple and nice? That's because Jony Iver don't mix silver and gold.


Damn, I'm always making that mistake:





My gold and silver Miniwatt.. you should see my medallion lol!


----------



## mordy

There is an Australian builder that makes amps that you can get gold plated - but can't remember the name right now....
From what I read, stainless steel shows finger prints, and I wonder if copper doesn't oxidize and turn green. - I'll think that I will stick to brushed aluminum and black.


----------



## UntilThen

Wow we have gone off on tangent again. Silver, gold, copper, brass.... wood? 

Speaking of wood, the LCD4 is only a hour or two away from my home ! and I'm getting the gold 300b amp tomorrow afternoon but I didn't bring the black Oblivion home !!!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Speaking of wood, the LCD4 is only a hour or two away from my home ! and I'm getting the gold 300b amp tomorrow afternoon but I didn't bring the black Oblivion home !!!



Duh.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Duh.


Paint the cart orange Bcowen. Make yourself useful.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> @bcowen  A side effect of your space travel at the speed of light, you come back looking 20 years younger ,no longer looking like Gollum on a bad day!


I thought it was Gollum on a good day...


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Paint the cart orange Bcowen. Make yourself useful.


Now I have to paint _*too*_?  We gotta have a serious talk about my wages.  And just so there's no preconceived notions, I don't do windows.  Period.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Period



That’s the right word. The eagle 🦅 has landed. With eyes glistening in the sun and outstretched wings that when flapped, produce the lowest bass and a midrange only eagle know how to sing.

Now head bobbing with a pair of speakers strapped to my head, it’s the most exciting sound.

To experience this please contact Audeze and said I referred you because I get a commission.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> That’s the right word. The eagle 🦅 has landed. With eyes glistening in the sun and outstretched wings that when flapped, produce the lowest bass and a midrange only eagle know how to sing.



Cannot stop myself to post this. When it's about eagles and landing:



PS. I was in the crowd at that show. LOL


----------



## baronbeehive (Apr 29, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Wow we have gone off on tangent again. Silver, gold, copper, brass.... wood?
> 
> Speaking of wood, the LCD4 is only a hour or two away from my home ! and I'm getting the gold 300b amp tomorrow afternoon but I didn't bring the black Oblivion home !!!


What is this thread about if it wasn't tangents lol!

Speaking of which @bcowen I couldn't help noticing on your setup  you have the Tekton Lores speakers. At one time I was seriously considering upgrading to these because of their high sensitivity, or alternatively the Golden Ear Triton 7's. As  you have got the Tektons what is your opinion of them please?

No need to worry about going off piste on this thread .


----------



## bcowen (Apr 29, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> What is this thread about if it wasn't tangents lol!
> 
> Speaking of which @bcowen I couldn't help noticing on your setup  you have the Tekton Lores speakers. At one time I was seriously considering upgrading to these because of their high sensitivity, or alternatively the Golden Ear Triton 7's. As  you have got the Tektons what is your opinion of them please?
> 
> No need to worry about going off piste on this thread .


I love them, actually.  Not sure if it's because of the sound, or because they toss all conventional wisdom about "audiophile" loudspeakers right out the window:

1) They're cheap
2) They have simple MDF cabinets with only one cross brace internally
3) They use a guitar amp driver (complete with a whizzer cone!) for the main driver
4) They never fail to get my foot tapping
5) They play to rock-concert levels with 20 watts of SET power
6) Even though they roll off pretty quickly below 30 Hz, they are full and powerful all the way to that point

To be fair, I re-did them internally with better wire and better crossover parts.  They sound incredibly awful out of the box and need at least 100 hours of blasting at insane levels to really get in the groove, but once there I still crack up at a $1k pair of speakers (and $300 in extra parts) that give me more enjoyment than the last pair of $12k speakers I had.  They need some space behind and between them and the walls (at least 18" behind and 24" or so to the sides in my room anyway), but given that they throw up a huge soundstage (especially with LP's).  No "pinpoint" imaging like some more exotic speakers, but the performers/instruments are in the appropriate place(s) with the appropriate size, etc.  I've contemplated on several occasions upgrading to the Tekton Double Impacts, and then every time I sit down to listen I just forget about any need to upgrade.     Yup, there's way better speakers out there and I've been fortunate to hear a lot of them, but for the money these have never failed to disappoint.  Most people buy the speakers they like and then buy or upgrade to an amp that will drive them properly.  I went backwards (like usual)  -- I had an amp I loved (the Jota), so went searching for speakers that would work with it....and the Lores do quite well at that. 

Original crossovers:





Steroid-ed crossovers and Neotech wiring:


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> They never fail to get my foot tapping


Is that why the cart went into lake? The lesson here is never tap your foot on the pedal when driving unless you have thump controls.

My foot was also half tapping when I tried my very own LCD4 but alas the WA22 is like a impoverished guy trying to lift 50 kgs.

I need the golden child aka Arnie the 300b amp and it’s still 12 hours away !

In the meantime I will just use Little Foot to drive the Motherode.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> but for the money these have never failed to disappoint.


I am not a native English speaker, but isn't that basically saying they always disappoint?!


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> I am not a native English speaker, but isn't that basically saying they always disappoint?!


Bcowen have been drinking again. He never fails to disappoint me by driving the cart into the lake time and again.

However his Jota doesn’t disappoint me. I will have to confiscate that amp.


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> I am not a native English speaker, but isn't that basically saying they always disappoint?!


Nitpicker.  They have disappointed me never.  That better?    

Actually, that's not totally true.  When I first got them, they were SO bad sounding I almost put them right back in the shipping boxes and sent them back.  Shrill, piercing treble, no bass to speak of, and overall just awful.  I've yet to hear _any_ speaker that benefited as much from break-in as these.  The crossover mods elevated them, but did not totally change them like the initial break-in did.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 29, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Bcowen have been drinking again. He never fails to disappoint me by driving the cart into the lake time and again.


LOL!  That's totally _your_ fault for buying cheap beer requiring me to drink 30 of them before my senses are dulled enough not to taste it any more. 

PS: don't go look at the Akai right now. I might have installed it upside down 'cause it has twin frowns currently.


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> I am not a native English speaker, but isn't that basically saying they always disappoint?!


I am Russian actually. I speak Tchaikovsky.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> LOL!  That's totally _your_ fault for buying cheap beer requiring me to drink 30 of them before my senses are dulled enough not to taste it any more.
> 
> PS: don't go look at the Akai right now. I might have installed it upside down 'cause it has twin frowns currently.


Complain again and you will be drinking coconut alcohol instead.

Akai has been packed waiting for the next equaliser fan to pick it up. I say goodbye to a high tech high fidelity audio gear. Akai means ‘The Greatest’ btw.

Have to clear the deck for Odyssey arrival. I think Tomas is doing the schematics already. There are about 101 points to solder with pure silver solder.


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> Nitpicker.  They have disappointed me never.  That better?
> 
> Actually, that's not totally true.  When I first got them, they were SO bad sounding I almost put them right back in the shipping boxes and sent them back.  Shrill, piercing treble, no bass to speak of, and overall just awful.  I've yet to hear _any_ speaker that benefited as much from break-in as these.  The crossover mods elevated them, but did not totally change them like the initial break-in did.


Interesting that the current version has a redesigned crossover:
https://tektondesign.com/product/full-range-speakers/full-towers/lore/#color


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Is that why the cart went into lake? The lesson here is never tap your foot on the pedal when driving unless you have thump controls.



He obviously has cruise control on the cart, you must have given him the deluxe version by mistake .


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> I love them, actually.  Not sure if it's because of the sound, or because they toss all conventional wisdom about "audiophile" loudspeakers right out the window:
> 
> 1) They're cheap
> 2) They have simple MDF cabinets with only one cross brace internally
> ...


Nice work on the crossovers!

Thanks for that very informative response. I was always curious about these sub £1000 speakers, they were given a couple of great reviews a while back but apart from that little information.

Yes difficult to know what to do first, amp or speaker, both are vital to sound. I was the same as you with amp first, and struck lucky with the baby amp in the pic, looks like a toy, in fact I used Meccano parts in the upgrade because it was the only way I could get small enough screws and brackets to fit lol!


----------



## baronbeehive

Zachik said:


> I am not a native English speaker, but isn't that basically saying they always disappoint?!


Well spotted,  nice to know somebody's concentrating at least!


----------



## baronbeehive

Upgrade in progress on the Miniwatt:






Showing very expensive high quality Jupiter coupling caps, costing as much as the amp, but transforming the sound to a quite shocking level!


----------



## mordy

baronbeehive said:


> Nice work on the crossovers!
> 
> Thanks for that very informative response. I was always curious about these sub £1000 speakers, they were given a couple of great reviews a while back but apart from that little information.
> 
> Yes difficult to know what to do first, amp or speaker, both are vital to sound. I was the same as you with amp first, and struck lucky with the baby amp in the pic, looks like a toy, in fact I used Meccano parts in the upgrade because it was the only way I could get small enough screws and brackets to fit lol!


In the past some people named the Zu Omen Dirty Weekend speakers as good sounding and very efficient in this price range:
https://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/omen-dirty-weekend-ii


----------



## baronbeehive

mordy said:


> In the past some people named the Zu Omen Dirty Weekend speakers as good sounding and very efficient in this price range:
> https://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/omen-dirty-weekend-ii


Thanks!

Yes I looked at these at the same time. I felt the Tektons would be that bit more musical possibly. BUT I'm still with my Monitor Audio, I'm finding them too good to replace atm, if I do replace them it will have to be something special!!


----------



## mordy

baronbeehive said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Yes I looked at these at the same time. I felt the Tektons would be that bit more musical possibly. BUT I'm still with my Monitor Audio, I'm finding them too good to replace atm, if I do replace them it will have to be something special!!


Having plenty of power on tap I don't have to worry about the efficiency of speakers. I use Elac Debut 6 speakers with good results. They are very inexpensive and are said to be just as good as $1000 speakers for a fifth of the price.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Upgrade in progress on the Miniwatt:
> 
> 
> 
> Showing very expensive high quality Jupiter coupling caps, costing as much as the amp, but transforming the sound to a quite shocking level!


You need a bigger chassis !

Nice work btw. 😀


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> In the past some people named the Zu Omen Dirty Weekend speakers as good sounding and very efficient in this price range:
> https://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/omen-dirty-weekend-ii


I vacillated between those and the Lores for quite a while.  I ended up going with the Tektons due to the slightly higher sensitivity, a little further reach down in the bass, and at the time I bought mine there was a free shipping special so they ended up in total (in stock form) being about $300 less (which I then turned around and spent on crossover parts LOL!).  I've never heard the Zu's so don't know if I made the right decision, but I'll probably never know because if I upgrade at some point it will likely be to a higher level Tekton.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I vacillated between those and the Lores for quite a while.  I ended up going with the Tektons due to the slightly higher sensitivity, a little further reach down in the bass, and at the time I bought mine there was a free shipping special so they ended up in total (in stock form) being about $300 less (which I then turned around and spent on crossover parts LOL!).  I've never heard the Zu's so don't know if I made the right decision, but I'll probably never know because if I upgrade at some point it will likely be to a higher level Tekton.


Becowen since you show some talent in building that speakers, I will commission you to build me a clone of Dynaudio Confidence 60.

In the meantime I will sell you my spare Boston Acoustics vr2 at a great discount for a long term employee. Check out the specs on search google.

All yours for $300 postage not included.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Becowen since you show some talent in building that speakers, I will commission you to build me a clone of Dynaudio Confidence 60.
> 
> In the meantime I will sell you my spare Boston Acoustics vr2 at a great discount for a long term employee. Check out the specs on search google.
> 
> All yours for $300 postage not included.


Well, I don't build speakers.  I just screw up crossovers.  And golf carts.   

Thanks kindly for the offer, but 93 dB sensitivity and a -3dB point of 41 Hz?  Um, think I'll stick with my lowly Lores.  LOL!


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Well, I don't build speakers.  I just screw up crossovers.  And golf carts.
> 
> Thanks kindly for the offer, but 93 dB sensitivity and a -3dB point of 41 Hz?  Um, think I'll stick with my lowly Lores.  LOL!


$300 and you want subsonic bass.... get real or get a subwoofer!

or get my LCD4 🤠

Guess what? I am 8 hours away from collecting Destiny !!!!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> $300 and you want subsonic bass.... get real or get a subwoofer!
> 
> or get my LCD4 🤠
> 
> Guess what? I am 8 hours away from collecting Destiny !!!!


.. about 7 now and counting....!! I'm feeling your pain .


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Guess what? I am 8 hours away from collecting Destiny !!!!



Prepared my beers. Waiting for LCD4, Destiny and other nice stuff. Do not disappoint me, German beer tonight!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> .. about 7 now and counting....!! I'm feeling your pain .



Ecstasy has arrived ... I mean Destiny. My pain is creating illusions.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/eric-mcchanson-headphone-amp.718350/post-16327157


----------



## Redge78

Hi All,

Been away for so long that I was not even aware of ... all this.

Worderfull stuff, wonderfull adventure. I'm very happy for you.
I've read Maxx review (bless him) and I'm impressed.

Maybe one day I'll buy one ... and mod it to death !  

Redge78


----------



## SonicTrance

Redge78 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Been away for so long that I was not even aware of ... all this.
> 
> ...


Hey Redge! It's been a while! Great to see you on here again!


----------



## baronbeehive (Apr 30, 2021)

Redge78 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Been away for so long that I was not even aware of ... all this.
> 
> ...


Hey Redge!

Good to hear from you after all this time, hope it's going well. Many memories, mostly good!

What have  you been up to and more importantly..  how's your extravagantly modded LD going? I've just finished mine with some expensive Neotech OCC silver wire inside recently.


Edit: I daren't touch it any more lol.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Ecstasy has arrived ... I mean Destiny. My pain is creating illusions.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/eric-mcchanson-headphone-amp.718350/post-16327157



Looking soooooo good in black and gold, unlike my miserable effort in.. please forgive me.. silver and gold.. aaaaaaaaaggggggggggghhhhh no .

This will be your theme song henceforth:


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> This will be your theme song henceforth:


Nice. You've no idea how good this song sound from LCD4 driven by Destiny. However I've given the theme song to the cheesy 'You're my destiny' by Lionel Richie because that female dancer is so curvy and irresistible.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Looking soooooo good in black and gold, unlike my miserable effort in.. please forgive me.. silver and gold.. aaaaaaaaaggggggggggghhhhh no .
> 
> This will be your theme song henceforth:



Personally, I think silver and gold looks pretty sweet together.   I won't bore you with more pictures of the Jota, but I do have some gold knobs for its sister preamp, the Alana.  Should I install them?

(PS: chrome silver is a real b*tch to take photos of.  Blame the camera, not the photographer ).


----------



## baronbeehive (May 1, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Personally, I think silver and gold looks pretty sweet together.   I won't bore you with more pictures of the Jota, but I do have some gold knobs for its sister preamp, the Alana.  Should I install them?
> 
> (PS: chrome silver is a real b*tch to take photos of.  Blame the camera, not the photographer ).


Oh, what the hell, go ahead and be damned . I can't make my  mind up about this, I like chrome and I like gold!

Yes I noticed this about chrome, whenever I took photos of my tubes to sell, I always ended up on the picture without realising it lol.

Nice living room on the front panel of your amp btw!


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Oh, what the hell, go ahead and be damned . I can't make my  mind up about this, I like chrome and I like gold!
> 
> Yes I noticed this about chrome, whenever I took photos of my tubes to sell, I always ended up on the picture without realising it lol.
> 
> Nice living room on the front panel of your amp btw!


LOL!!!  Thanks.  I'm impressed that I was able to keep myself out of the picture.  That would have ruined it.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Nice. You've no idea how good this song sound from LCD4 driven by Destiny. However I've given the theme song to the cheesy 'You're my destiny' by Lionel Richie because that female dancer is so curvy and irresistible.


You need to try the LCD-4 on your Oblivion! Use high Z setting


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> You need to try the LCD-4 on your Oblivion! Use high Z setting


That's what I'm dying to do. It's not everyday a new amp and a new 'heavy weight' headphone arrives at almost the same time. So next weekend, LCD4 and Destiny will be journeying back to Canberra to meet Oblivion. Can't wait !

I expect LCD4 tone to be tighten, driven by Oblivion. That would be a nice contrast, compared that to the 300b voluptuous tone.


----------



## UntilThen

With Destiny in the house, my attention is now turn to Odyssey..,

To get an idea of size between the 2 amps.

Destiny - 430 x 350 x 250 (from feet to top of 300b tubes)

Odyssey - 380 x 380 x 260.

Almost identical in size !!!!

Can’t wait for Odyssey build to commence. Tomas visual design is outstanding and amps have always sound amazing. This build is the pinnacle of my dreams and Tomas is equally excited in the project, I can’t wait to see and hear the finished amp based on traditional SET tube amp topology.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Destiny - 430 x 350 x 250 (from feet to top of 300b tubes)
> 
> Odyssey - 380 x 380 x 260.



Is that inches, or feet?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Is that inches, or feet?


Millimeters lah..... /facepalm. Who uses inches these days? That’s prehistoric!


----------



## UntilThen

Let me showcase my NASA grade voltmeter. Should I have Odyssey on manual bias Tomas.....? Now that I have a space age voltmeter?

This is fun...


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Should I have Odyssey on manual bias Tomas.....? Now that I have a space *stone* age voltmeter?


Fixed this for you.  Didn't know you had Dollar Trees down under!  You can hold off on my raise until you get a Fluke.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Fixed this for you.  Didn't know you had Dollar Trees down under!  You can hold off on my raise until you get a Fluke.


----------



## UntilThen

Been away from this thread for a while. Been busy elsewhere !!! However in the midst of all the excitement, including just picking up a NAD M51 dac in like new condition, Tomas send me this...

This really make my day.   

The build for Odyssey is getting closer... just waiting on the nameplate and Sowter output transformers.


----------



## UntilThen

Tomas, I'm all ready for Odyssey. Tubes are being burn in now while waiting... on McChanson's amp. Odyssey is the amp I'm looking forward to because a lot goes into it. Not least your schematics done specially for it.


----------



## UntilThen

No Oblivion here but I’m listening to Oblivion 😀

https://tidal.com/album/173274737

I’m really curious how LCD4 sound with Oblivion but I have a very good idea. It could be perfect!


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Been away from this thread for a while. Been busy elsewhere !!! However in the midst of all the excitement, including just picking up a NAD M51 dac in like new condition, Tomas send me this...
> 
> This really make my day.
> 
> The build for Odyssey is getting closer... just waiting on the nameplate and Sowter output transformers.


Just wait a bit more Mr July, at least you have a 300b amp to fully burn with LCD-4. 

*This is my month, Eternity should land before June !*
I'm waiting for it a lot as I have some tubes ready just for it. I never listened those on my headphones ! (_I usually never sell any piece of audio equipment so Eternity is a good matching name 😉 I no not buy much either 😜)_


----------



## UntilThen

Christo, I share your excitement. Your Eternity will no doubt sound amazing because Tomas build great sounding amps.

July is right smack into Winter for me. The phrase ‘Winter of discontent’ does not apply to me because I could be the most content person in the world right now. Not sure how I got to this phase of my audio hobby because if you had asked me 6 years ago if I would get to this stage, I would have said the chances are nil. It would have been easier to get a hole in one.

I don’t think I will need many tubes to please me in Odyssey because the East German RFT EL34 sounds like a perfect match in McChanson’s amp with LCD4.

I would have waited 3 months from concept to arrival of Odyssey but it would be totally worth it. I can just picture in my mind how the amp will look in the silver chassis.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Christo, I share your excitement. Your Eternity will no doubt sound amazing because Tomas build great sounding amps.


I really hope so.. But I have to admit that Reading on HeadFi and SBAF guided a bit my choice to @MrCurwen and his European padawan @SonicTrance _(All the builds I've seen are really looking great in picture)_..


UntilThen said:


> I would have waited 3 months from concept to arrival of Odyssey but it would be totally worth it. I can just picture in my mind how the amp will look in the silver chassis.


And if you stated EL11/EL12spezzzzzzzzzzzzz We are really close to shoot after a long wait in the Bush/Forest.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> I really hope so.. But I have to admit that Reading on HeadFi and SBAF guided a bit my choice to @MrCurwen and his European padawan @SonicTrance _(All the builds I've seen are really looking great in picture)_..



Haven't had a chat with MrCurwen for a loooong time and if he finds out I've gone old school ......... 

BUT I'm UntilThen and I go to any school I want. 



hpamdr said:


> And if you stated EL11/EL12spezzzzzzzzzzzzz We are really close to shoot after a long wait in the Bush/Forest.



You do know that EL11 / EL12 spez is pretty much in Odyssey's DNA right? Amp would have look much nicer with just those tubes. It would have look incredible but I have to compromise for the sake of some variety... which is good for mankind.


----------



## UntilThen

300b amp sound is soooooo good. Just curious what Tomas will produce with the amp after me. I believe it will be a 300b amp.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> 300b amp sound is soooooo good. Just curious what Tomas will produce with the amp after me. I believe it will be a 300b amp.


I bet a 300b infinity


----------



## OctavianH

I would be curious to know what amps are in the queue, but I guess this is confidential information, if they want they tell us, if not we will see during time.
I do not know very much about 300B or 2A3, I never listened to such amplifiers and try to keep myself out of that area, I spent enough on tubes already.
But judging by the enthusiasm of the owners, I guess 300B amps are nice.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I guess 300B amps are nice



Nicer than Elle Macpherson in her prime !

Now I have to tempt you one more time. Get Tomas to build you an old school 45 amp.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Now I have to tempt you one more time. Get Tomas to build you an old school 45 amp.



If I will ever ask Tomas to build me another amplifier, it will use Tung Sol 5998 as output  It will be nice as Alicia


----------



## UntilThen

Ok you can have Alicia but I want to be like Chris.


----------



## hpamdr

OctavianH said:


> I would be curious to know what amps are in the queue, but I guess this is confidential information, if they want they tell us, if not we will see during time.
> I do not know very much about 300B or 2A3, I never listened to such amplifiers and try to keep myself out of that area, I spent enough on tubes already.
> But judging by the enthusiasm of the owners, I guess 300B amps are nice.


300b are really sweet amplifier. I'm not sure if it is the best set for Metal... No need to get original WE you have reissue that sound great 
// I only listened speaker amp in calm an relax place with good old whisky smsb//


----------



## OctavianH

hpamdr said:


> 300b are really sweet amplifier. I'm not sure if it is the best set for Metal... No need to get original WE you have reissue that sound great



Well, this is what I was thinking, 300B is sweet, but then I've seen a picture with the 300B amp and LCD-4 which has to be the follower of LCD-3 which has to be sweet. So sweet + sweet = .... Brr, need a beer.


----------



## UntilThen

You mean Destiny and LCD4? I'll oblige with a photoshoot complete with skull just to show that it is suitable for metalheads.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> You mean Destiny and LCD4? I'll oblige with a photoshoot complete with skull just to show that it is suitable for metalheads.



Yes, I wanted to ask you if your 300B amplifier or even the one where you used KT88 were a good pair for LCD-4. I do not know much about it, but LCD-3 has to be a lush and warm headhpone which I would pair with a neutral amplifier. Soon I'll show you a picture with my skull beer pint, which unfortunately is empty now because of a common enemy in my line of work called JIRA.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Yes, I wanted to ask you if your 300B amplifier or even the one where you used KT88 were a good pair for LCD-4.



Absolutely. Both the 300b and KT88 amps are stunning with LCD4. I really can't decide which amp I like better. That's why I am so excited for Odyssey's arrival because I know it will sound better. 

I'll go so far as to say that the 300b amp is as good as Auris Nirvana with LCD4.

I don't use LCD3f now. It's going to a new home next weekend.


----------



## hpamdr

OctavianH said:


> So sweet + sweet = .... Brr, need a beer.


Give me a Jira account and i will urge you to have a sweet beer + a sweet beer + ...!
 I will have an acid one    (like the Acid Berliner Weiß)


----------



## OctavianH

hpamdr said:


> Give me a Jira account and i will urge you to have a sweet beer + a sweet beer + ...!
> I will have an acid one    (like the Acid Berliner Weiß)



I do not fall in traps like these. All managers say this when they request accounts. Old wolf here!


----------



## baronbeehive (May 7, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> 300b are really sweet amplifier. I'm not sure if it is the best set for Metal... No need to get original WE you have reissue that sound great
> // I only listened speaker amp in calm an relax place with good old whisky smsb//


Yep, I'm thinking the same. The problem I have with lush sounding SQ, it's not snappy enough for most kinds of music to seem realistic, pleasant though it is.

So I am interested in how the transients, dynamic changes, frequency extension and so on sound with 300B.

Edit: I would say that because I've spent ages trying to get my amp mods to do this in a satisfactory way.. the Neotech wires helped here.


----------



## UntilThen

300b amps are not all rounders. It's mid centric and does vocals like no others I've heard. My comments about metalheads being suited for 300b amps are a tongue in cheek statement because I'm not a hard metal fan. I wouldn't call Uriah Heep's 'Lady in black' hard metal and I like it. Likewise Ritchie Blackmore's 'Temple of the King'. I could not get enough of listening to Daniel Castro's 'I'll sing the blues for you' and some of the blues greats.

KT88 amp is tighter, has faster transients and high frequencies are clearer. Bass is also a clenched fist punch but it will not have the 300b's lovely mids and midbass presentation.

Comparison with Oblivion will be kept for another day.... when Odyssey arrives.

I've probably gone full circle chasing tones. From (A) Yggdrasil > Ragnarok > HD800 to (B) NAD M51 > Destiny > LCD4. Had to use the M51 now because Yggdrasil is in Canberra and I won't get to it till a week's time. (A) was awesome to me when I audition it at the shop in 2017 and I bought those 3 items on that day. However Ragnarok lasted less than a year when GOTL arrives. (B) is what I like now. Reminds me of when I heard Chord Qutest > Auris Nirvana > LCD4 at the shop 3 months ago.

Will there be a (C) ? You bet. I'm looking at Odyssey the KT** amp. The reason I went down this path is because of Elekit TU-8200. It was in this Japanese DIY kit that I discover that I like KT88, EL34, 807, El12 spez family of tubes. McChanson's KT88 amp sounded much better than the TU-8200, which in comparison sounded thin. Odyssey has Sowter's output transformers and will be based on old school design. Will also feature my 'pet' favourite Telefunken EL11 drivers in addition to 6SL7. I think this is the amp that will surprise me most .... time will tell.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> 300b amps are not all rounders. It's mid centric and does vocals like no others I've heard. My comments about metalheads being suited for 300b amps are a tongue in cheek statement because I'm not a hard metal fan. I wouldn't call Uriah Heep's 'Lady in black' hard metal and I like it. Likewise Ritchie Blackmore's 'Temple of the King'. I could not get enough of listening to Daniel Castro's 'I'll sing the blues for you' and some of the blues greats.


I think a lot lies in the implementation and the actual 300B tubes being used as well.  I *am* a metalhead, and the Jota never fails to rock and roll as hard as I want it to when I want it to.  I'd bet though that some of that has to do with the high-current KR's....they aren't as "300B-ey" in the mids as, say, a Western Electric.  Still quite harmonically rich there, just not as forward in the mix.  The Emission Labs high current 300B's were decidedly softer sounding, and mostly why I prefer the KR's to them (personally).  I don't listen exclusively to metal though, so I want an end result that offers up the tone and harmonic detail in full bore, but can also slice and dice when I want some Def Leppard at 100 dB's.      This all in reference to a loudspeaker amp though....I haven't yet had the opportunity to listen a 300B amp with headphones.  I need a raise.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I haven't yet had the opportunity to listen a 300B amp with headphones. I need a raise.



I think you earn your keep, my very old Padawan. Absolutely agree with you there on the implementation. To generalise on 300b tone is futile. Todate, I've heard two 300b amps. The Woo Wa5le with Takatsuki tubes and my what is now known as Destiny. Very different presentation. There's no doubt which I prefer.

I need to get my KR Audio 300b tubes first before I consider giving you a raise. That is if there's anything left in the kitty after I go shopping for 300b tubes.

But you need to hear a well implemented KT88 amp with headphones and you certainly need to hear headphones with your 300b amp.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I think a lot lies in the implementation and the actual 300B tubes being used as well.  I *am* a metalhead, and the Jota never fails to rock and roll as hard as I want it to when I want it to.  I'd bet though that some of that has to do with the high-current KR's....they aren't as "300B-ey" in the mids as, say, a Western Electric.  Still quite harmonically rich there, just not as forward in the mix.  The Emission Labs high current 300B's were decidedly softer sounding, and mostly why I prefer the KR's to them (personally).  I don't listen exclusively to metal though, so I want an end result that offers up the tone and harmonic detail in full bore, but can also slice and dice when I want some Def Leppard at 100 dB's.      This all in reference to a loudspeaker amp though....I haven't yet had the opportunity to listen a 300B amp with headphones.  I need a raise.



Excellent contribution Bill. I should not be frivolous when commendation is due. You have lots of experience with 300b and I certainly hope to hear more from you.

From what I read, the KR 300b tubes have an audiophile tone compared to the Gold Lion 300b tubes. Takatsuki even more so. More 300b tubes to come in the dark days ahead.


----------



## UntilThen

Destiny driving speakers now. Why did I bother with headphones 😀

Playing Mike Oldfield ‘Tubular Bells’.

Can’t wait for Odyssey to be doing this.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Destiny driving speakers now. Why did I bother with headphones 😀
> 
> Playing Mike Oldfield ‘Tubular Bells’.
> 
> Can’t wait for Odyssey to be doing this.



Very nice!

And just when you think you've seen it all, a cartridge with 2 cantilevers?  That's a first for me.  Is the other one a spare that can be flipped down if the first one breaks?


----------



## UntilThen

You magnify my legendary Apheta cartridge?  Why didn't you ask me for a close up shot. Could have given you a better one.


----------



## UntilThen

One of the gear I love and have kept. Rega RP8 with Apheta and Avid Pellar phono is more resolving than Yggdrasil imho.


----------



## bcowen (May 8, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> You magnify my legendary Apheta cartridge?  Why didn't you ask me for a close up shot. Could have given you a better one.


LOL!  I didn't magnify it...just opened up the full photo.   

I *did* see this though and immediately thought of you (the last guy).  

  **Warning: totally off-topic**  

_Three golfing partners died in a car wreck and went to heaven. Upon arrival, they discover the most beautiful golf course they have ever seen.  St. Peter tells them that they are all welcome to play the course, but he cautions them that there is only one rule: "Don't hit the ducks during your first three months here."  The men all have blank expressions, and finally one of them asks, "The ducks?"  "Yes", St. Peter replies, "there are thousands of ducks walking around the course, and if one gets hit, he quacks, then the one next to him quacks and soon they're all quacking to beat the band. It really breaks the tranquility, and if you hit one of the ducks, you'll be punished. Otherwise everything is yours to enjoy."

Upon entering the course, the men noted that there were indeed large numbers of ducks everywhere. Within fifteen minutes, one of the guys hit a duck. The duck quacks, the one next to it quacked and soon here was a deafening roar of duck quacks.  St. Peter walked up with an extremely homely woman in tow and asks, "Who hit the duck?" The guy who had done it admitted, "I did."  St. Peter immediately pulled out a pair of handcuffs and cuffed the man's right hand to the homely woman's left hand. "I told you not to hit the ducks," he said. "Now you'll be handcuffed together for eternity."

The other two men were very cautious not to hit any ducks, but a couple of weeks later, one of them accidentally did. The quacks were as deafening as before, and within minutes St. Peter walked up with an even uglier woman. He cuffed the man's right hand to the homely woman's left hand. "I told you not to hit the ducks," he said; "Now you'll be handcuffed together for eternity." The third man was extremely careful. Some days he wouldn't even play for fear of even nudging a duck. After three months, he still hadn't hit a duck. St. Peter walked up to the man at the end of the three months, and had with him a knock-out, gorgeous woman - the most beautiful woman the man had ever seen. St. Peter smiled at the man and then, without a word, handcuffed him to the beautiful woman and walked off. The man, knowing that he would be handcuffed to this woman for eternity, let out a contented sigh and said aloud, "I wonder what I did to deserve this?"

The woman responds, "I don't know about you, but I hit a duck."_


----------



## UntilThen

Well I'm glad she hit the duck and I was the last golfer.


----------



## UntilThen

Let's get back to head-fi before we get handcuffed to the ducks !

The only gear I've ever bought twice is the NAD M51.  9th June 2018.


----------



## baronbeehive

All quiet on the Western Front.....


----------



## UntilThen

Hello Baron, I'll get around to here after I've made my specially requested appearances in the other head-fi threads.


----------



## baronbeehive (May 10, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Hello Baron, I'll get around to here after I've made my specially requested appearances in the other head-fi threads.


Thought you might be trying to hack your way out of a bunker .

Edit: Just been listening to some more of those high res speaker demos on youtube, sensational stuff.. but now it's time to tear myself away .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Thought you might be trying to hack your way out of a bunker .



Yup trying to get out of this bunker. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-16346223


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Yup trying to get out of this bunker. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-16346223


Haha.. no wonder you were stuck there. I must revisit the 6AS7G thread again lol.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Yup trying to get out of this bunker. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-16346223


If you would focus on the golf ball instead of _your_ balls you wouldn't be in the bunker to begin with.

Respectfully,
Your Favorite Caddy


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> If you would focus on the golf ball instead of _your_ balls you wouldn't be in the bunker to begin with.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Your Favorite Caddy


Sound advice!


----------



## UntilThen

12th of May. Your amp must be half finished @hpamdr.

With 2 amps here, I am still thinking of Odyssey.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> 12th of May. Your amp must be half finished @hpamdr.
> 
> With 2 amps here, I am still thinking of Odyssey.


Closer my amp will be finished closer your amp will start..
Yes many progress have been done but only @SonicTrance can tell you how much have to be done.. I'm waiting for the first listening tests done by Tomas.
What I can tell you is that many details are present showing a very professional building process. Tomas gives some news and discuss freely about implementation details 

I'm confident about final result.


----------



## hpamdr

Just to tease you, i got a picture from the key hole of Tomas lab... Classic, Simple and very logical placement 
Once it will be finished it will look even better 




If it sound well with Tomas LCD, i will probably get an HEDDphone for winter.


----------



## UntilThen

Congratulations   Happy for you that your Eternity is almost finished which means Odyssey's build will start soon.

I've just paid for the pair of Tung Sol 6550 1960s which brings me closer to completion of my tubes acquisition.


----------



## hpamdr (May 12, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Congratulations   Happy for you that your Eternity is almost finished which means Odyssey's build will start soon.
> 
> I've just paid for the pair of Tung Sol 6550 1960s which brings me closer to completion of my tubes acquisition.


Chassis work is finished..  Do not hurry up too much. You still have time to get EL156 if Tomas have 10 pin socket and connect special g2 (just next to EL12 g2) and A like for an EL12N no need for adapter


----------



## UntilThen

Nup, Odyssey design is finished. KT88 sockets for power tubes. That's it. Anything else revolves around it. No complications here. Straight forward. If I could just use GEC KT88, Tung Sol 6550, GEC KT66 and Philips Miniwatt 6CA7, I will be happy. Other tubes will be adapted such as EL39, EL12 spez, 807, GEC TT21, EL156. Not even sure I want to use EL12 and EL12N as I have the tubes because Tomas say these are weak compared to the others.


----------



## OctavianH (May 13, 2021)

When I received Eternity people asked to come back after some time and tell them what I think about it.
So I wrote a few words about it and, overall, about my experience with UltraSonic Studios.
It is not a review, more the story of my purchase and how I see it after around 3 weeks of use.
If someone is interested, the file is attached.

PS. Don't take it too seriously, I have a strange kind of humour, some might not appreciate.


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks for write up Octavian but you need to insert a tldr in there so people who want to get a general idea of Eternity sound signature can zoom in on the paragraph. Nevertheless thanks for writing it up.


----------



## hpamdr

OctavianH said:


> When I received Eternity people asked to come back after some time and tell them what I think about it.
> So I wrote a few words about it and, overall, about my experience with UltraSonic Studios.
> It is not a review, more the story of my purchase and how I see it after around 3 weeks of use.
> If someone is interested, the file is attached.
> ...


I'm very please to read your journey to Eternity from the very beginning to the final satisfaction.. Tomas could add another "happy customer" to his list.
You explained  how Tomas was always prone to explain and find solution for your requests. And finally delivered your own amplifier as designed !

What you described about having more personality extracted from the output tube than from the input is what have been described about the modern design. But the amp let you experiment and have different good set depending of the mood ! If you want to relax and listen music with current GEC KT77/L63_ (waiting for the EL34) _ this is a great result !


----------



## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> When I received Eternity people asked to come back after some time and tell them what I think about it.
> So I wrote a few words about it and, overall, about my experience with UltraSonic Studios.
> It is not a review, more the story of my purchase and how I see it after around 3 weeks of use.
> If someone is interested, the file is attached.
> ...


Thanks for the write up! Great job! =)


----------



## LoryWiv (May 13, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> When I received Eternity people asked to come back after some time and tell them what I think about it.
> So I wrote a few words about it and, overall, about my experience with UltraSonic Studios.
> It is not a review, more the story of my purchase and how I see it after around 3 weeks of use.
> If someone is interested, the file is attached.
> ...


A great read and gives one a perspective on the amp and your journey. GEC KT77's are quite rae from my (limited) searching, glad you scored a pair!


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Thanks for write up Octavian but you need to insert a tldr in there so people who want to get a general idea of Eternity sound signature can zoom in on the paragraph. Nevertheless thanks for writing it up.



I added a remark at the beginning that the actual amplifier part starts at page 5.



hpamdr said:


> I'm very please to read your journey to Eternity from the very beginning to the final satisfaction.. Tomas could add another "happy customer" to his list.
> You explained  how Tomas was always prone to explain and find solution for your requests. And finally delivered your own amplifier as designed !
> 
> What you described about having more personality extracted from the output tube than from the input is what have been described about the modern design. But the amp let you experiment and have different good set depending of the mood ! If you want to relax and listen music with current GEC KT77/L63_ (waiting for the EL34) _ this is a great result !



I'm glad you liked it, I tried to present the complete experience, from the expectations part to the result, filled with a little bit of melodrama, like every story has. 
Now I take my popcorn wait for yours.


----------



## OctavianH (May 13, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> A great read and gives one a perspective on the amp and your journey. GEC KT77's are quite rae from my)limited) searching, glad you scored a pair!



All the KT77 NOS are rare, but I was lucky to already own a Genalex pair and I recently managed to find another untested GEC pair at a decent price. From those 2 pairs I was able to to make a decently matched one, which I currently use. Eternity needs matched pairs because it has some tolerances for each stage, in output I have to remain between the 15-24mA and if the tubes are unmatched this is not possible. Even now, I have 4mA between them and I have to be careful at startup not to exceed the maximum allowed value. Since the outputs are the most expensive and many pairs I use were quite unmatched, my idea of having fixed input bias and output bias/tube might ease the pain.

But you should not worry about them, on Elise I was totally unimpressed by KT77 on outputs, I was using them as driver for KT88 (like many were doing) because they were too warm and mellow.


----------



## UntilThen

In a few years time, NOS tubes will be extinct. So get your tubes now or just rely on current production tubes.

If you don’t compare you will be quite happy with current production too.

I just learn that nos Tung Sol 6550 have 4 different versions dating back from 1950s.


----------



## hpamdr

NOS tubes usually have a more refined sound than new production out of the box. What I have also experimented is that reissue need a long time to be "cracked" at least 2/3 month of usage before giving a sweeter tone and be more detailed. On the other side, getting a well/really matched pair/quad of NOS tube is sometimes quite hard to find.

At the end you somehow are used to the tube and the tube have better synergy with your equipment. This could be all psycho acoustics effect, but the most important is to be happy with your setting.

With tubes after 1950 some process of metal coating have been prohibited (a bit later with Russian tube but not much).


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> When I received Eternity people asked to come back after some time and tell them what I think about it.
> So I wrote a few words about it and, overall, about my experience with UltraSonic Studios.
> It is not a review, more the story of my purchase and how I see it after around 3 weeks of use.
> If someone is interested, the file is attached.
> ...



Very refreshing type of review, different from all the others, thankfully!

Interesting what you say about the merits of the modern approach to tube amp manufacture.

I also thought the section on KT77's informative, and just goes to show what I said back a bit that it is not so much the tube but the tube *AND* the circuitry that matters.

Thanks for taking the trouble .

Edit: this confirms that when I have saved up the pennies, the Eternity would be the amp for me lol!


----------



## baronbeehive

... I also agree with you about getting the guitar sound right, that's a must!!


----------



## hpamdr

baronbeehive said:


> ... I also agree with you about getting the guitar sound right, that's a must!!


I also have the same request, but this is for acoustic guitar, lute and bombard. But also all the fine tone of wood drums and details of cymbals.
But my preferred `instrument is` human voice from paolo conte to nathalie desay !


----------



## baronbeehive

hpamdr said:


> I also have the same request, but this is for acoustic guitar, lute and bombard. But also all the fine tone of wood drums and details of cymbals.
> But my preferred `instrument is` human voice from paolo conte to nathalie desay !


Yes, agreed! Acoustic is a different kettle of fish, and I also like listening to drums because of the many different sounds, and cymbals are quite hard to get right. Of course the voice too, my preference is for female vocals such as Bebel Gilberto and Annie Lennox and others. *BUT* I'm sure this amp will get it all right lol !


----------



## OctavianH (May 13, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> Edit: this confirms that when I have saved up the pennies, the Eternity would be the amp for me lol!


You plan to add the tube rolling add-on or just go for the stock version of Eternity (6AV6 and 6S19P)?
By the way I think that results depend also on the rest of the chain, and on speakers things might stand differently.


----------



## UntilThen

For vocals, include Rebecca Pidgeon, Patricia Barber, Sara K, Melody Gardot, Eva Cassidy and Tong Li.... and of course UT's voice.


----------



## UntilThen

UT's voice


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> For vocals, include Rebecca Pidgeon, Patricia Barber, Sara K, Melody Gardot, Eva Cassidy and Tong Li.... and of course UT's voice.


 Yes, all of those.. I think that's about everything .


----------



## baronbeehive (May 13, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> You plan to add the tube rolling add-on or just go for the stock version of Eternity (6AV6 and 6S19P)?
> By the way I think that results depend also on the rest of the chain, and on speakers things might stand differently.



Yes, that's why I'm afraid to change anything!

I'm not in the market for any changes atm, I like my system. But if I was to go for it this sounds right up my street going by what you've said about the sound signature. I don't know about tube rolling I would have to go back to thinking of all the tubes I like and see about that, difficult to do when you've been fairly settled for a while now. I think most likely I would settle on a nice tube and have the amp built around that because I know what type of sound l prefer.

Edit: To elaborate on that I like to hear everything in detail, in a realistic way, so clarity, realistic soundstage and instrument timbre, but not a sterile or harsh, sound, it must be lively and draw you in. I'll stop there before I get boring .

...obviously female vocalists have to be in close proximity... ... about the distance of that female golfer in UT's bunker .


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Yes, all of those.. I think that's about everything .


What?  No Chrissie Hynde?  One of the greatest ever (IMHO).  There are people that can sing, and then there are _singers_....that bring a song to life.


----------



## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> Eternity needs matched pairs because it has some tolerances for each stage, in output I have to remain between the 15-24mA and if the tubes are unmatched this is not possible.


It depends what you mean by matched pairs I guess. If one tube draws 15mA and the other 24mA it's ok in Eternity but the tubes are still grossly unbalanced. To me, a matched pair is within 5-10% to each other.

With that said, of course matched pairs are better for SQ and also for OCD peace of mind 🙃


----------



## baronbeehive (May 13, 2021)

bcowen said:


> What?  No Chrissie Hynde?  One of the greatest ever (IMHO).  There are people that can sing, and then there are _singers_....that bring a song to life.


OK.. she's got a great voice I'll give you that.. but I have to say I haven't really been a fan. Saying that I'm always willing to be wrong!

I have to agree with UT, he has all my CD's anyway!

Edit: What about Adele.. or Alison Krauss, for the sake of Anglo American relations . Hmmm I wonder if that female golfer in the bunker sings?


----------



## UntilThen (May 13, 2021)

SonicTrance said:


> It depends what you mean by matched pairs I guess. If one tube draws 15mA and the other 24mA it's ok in Eternity but the tubes are still grossly unbalanced. To me, a matched pair is within 5-10% to each other.
> 
> With that said, of course matched pairs are better for SQ and also for OCD peace of mind 🙃



My thoughts exactly. When I bought the pair of GEC 6as7g NOS NIB from Stavros, I was over the moon. It was 0.0001% match.

I didn't find out how much matched are my GEC KT66 NOS NIB and the Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 and the Radiotron 807 and the Chelmvalve EL39. Who cares. They look new to me and I'm OCD and I'll tell you what OCD means in a minute.


----------



## UntilThen

There was a time I play this over and over again.


----------



## UntilThen

And when Rolling Stones was still innocent.


----------



## UntilThen (May 13, 2021)

OCD means Odyssey Calls Daily.

Odyssey: Hello UT you there?
UT: Yo O, what's up? How you shaping up?
Odyssey: Not much. Trying to get rid of all these sticky dames here.
UT: You do that! Penelope Destiny's waiting at home!
Odyssey: Oh Penelope Destiny. I have forgotten! However I will be home soon. As soon as I learn to fly this gawd damm F35 Raptor.


----------



## baronbeehive (May 13, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> And when Rolling Stones was still innocent.



YEP the early stuff is the best!

Edit: You're up early .


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Hmmm I wonder if that female golfer in the bunker sings?


LOL!   Singing would be among the last of her talents I'd be interested in.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> LOL!   Singing would be among the last of her talents I'd be interested in.



Concentrate here guys. Don't remind me of that image. Hard to listen to music when that image of the Tee off forms in my mind - shoulder square, spine slightly curve, hair flowing and butt out. That's a Par 5 shot !


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> LOL!   Singing would be among the last of her talents I'd be interested in.


She may be practising her arpeggios .


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Concentrate here guys. Don't remind me of that image. Hard to listen to music when that image of the Tee off forms in my mind - shoulder square, spine slightly curve, hair flowing and butt out. That's a Par 5 shot !


Oh fine.  Throw up an alluring image and then tell us not to look at it.  Just like you.  That's why I always drive into the lake when you tell me not to.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Oh fine.  Throw up an alluring image and then tell us not to look at it.  Just like you.  That's why I always drive into the lake when you tell me not to.


Absolutely.. and then there's that latest thread image at the top of every page.. what are we supposed to do when we're trying to listen to music .


----------



## UntilThen

Just remember when you finished your swing, this is where your club should be. This is the apex. Eyes ahead. See where the ball is going.


----------



## baronbeehive (May 13, 2021)

@OctavianH , not quite clear on what the fixed bias switch does on output. I assume that the switch when on fixes the bias for the type of output tube specified, with it off you lose the accurate bias for that tube but can then put in any output tube you like?

I was wondering this when you said that you were surprised when you tried the KT77's which sounded so good compared to your previous experience of them. I thought maybe if the bias on this tube could be varied it would be interesting to see what effects on sound this had, and perhaps that would explain why that tube suddenly sounded so good.

Maybe I'm getting this wrong, perhaps someone could put me right on this?

Edit: I think I'm getting it, the output bias is set for KT66, and it just happened that when you put in KT77's these sounded good on this setting. If so what do they sound like with the switch off?

And is there a switch to switch between your 6J5 and 6SN7, or does it adjust the bias for these 2 tube types if you get my meaning. Sorry to ask but I'm just trying to be clear on what the switches do.


----------



## UntilThen

Complications complications 😀

I’m going the easy route. Tomas is setting auto or cathode biasing in Odyssey. For drivers and power tubes.

For Destiny, it’s manual bias on the power tubes. Initially I find it fun but I know the novelty will wear off in the long run. Fortunately for the 300b, I don’t have to readjust unless I buy another pair of 300b tubes.

That’s my 2 cents and it’s my last 2 cents because there ain’t anymore after spending $450 on Mr 6550.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Just remember when you finished your swing, this is where your club should be. This is the apex. Eyes ahead. See where the ball is going.


This photo sucks.  One demerit for you.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> This photo sucks.  One demerit for you.


I already got 1 demerit for speeding. What’s one more?


----------



## OctavianH

baronbeehive said:


> @OctavianH , not quite clear on what the fixed bias switch does on output. I assume that the switch when on fixes the bias for the type of output tube specified, with it off you lose the accurate bias for that tube but can then put in any output tube you like?


When I wrote that I totally ignored the electrical part and I try to describe the effect I obtained with various tube types. Now I will try to explain the missing part.

Eternity uses 2 triodes / channel. I call them triodes and not tubes because there are tubes which contain in the same glass envelope 2 triodes (for example 6SN7).
In the past I was calling the ones on the front drivers and the ones on the back powers, but here in Eternity I call them inputs and outputs because Tomas explained me that they do not drive anything like on the classic designs. Those 2 triodes on the front form the input stage. The 2 triodes on the back form the output stage. In my case, I have 3 tube sockets on the front and an input switch to decide which of those will be used as my input stage. The reason is exactly what I mentioned before, I can use 2 x single triode tubes or just one double triode tube (middle socket). Each stage has an operation point, a pair of voltage and current at which the tubes have to be run. If we are not biasing the tube to meet these operation points we are damaging the circuitry. Tomas set the values for me as follows (and I think this would be valid for all Eternity builds) at 180V/4mA for input stage and 200V/20mA for output stage. Each tube type has different electrical parameters, therefore, in order to operate at the desired operating point (basically to have the current at the previously mentioned value, because the anode voltage is fixed) needs a different grid voltage applied to it. This grid voltage, we call bias, is a negative voltage which is regulating the current through the tube. And this voltage is applied to both tubes in a stage in the current design. Basically you can imagine it as a valve (water tap) from which you decide the amount of current which will "flow" through the tube. Of course, each operating point has a tolerance, which in Eternity's case is 3-5mA and 15-24mA, depending on the stage. This means that if we are able to set grid bias voltages to keep both tubes in the stage (for example both L63 or both KT66) in that range, the amplifier will work properly.

And now I will answer, please excuse me for the long prequel but I am able to answer only by starting with the beggining. My fixed bias switch is nothing more than a predefined bias voltage for the tube types KT66 and L63. Nothing more. It is a "button" which decides if the amplifier will use a fixed bias (as previously built Oblivion or Citadel models) and in this case it will be able to use only the tube types for which it was set, or will let the bias to be variable and adjustable by a multiturn trimmer mounted on the top plate. It was a feature for my peace of mind, because from time to time, when I am tired, I just prefer to listen to music instead of being worried about a possible operation failure from my side. So I just turn off variable bias (for each stage, I have 2 such "buttons" do turn off the effect of both the multi turn trimmers and let the amplifier use the internal fixed negative voltages set by Tomas) and in that case my amplifier acts like a standard version. No tube rolling possible, only KT66 and L63. But L63 (or 6J5) on input stage provides me some flexibility. Since several tube types have the same electrical parameters, I can use with the fixed bias set for L63 the 6SN7, 7N7 (same as 6SN7 but different base, needs adapter, I think base is called loctal) or 6F8G (same electrical parameters as 6SN7 but different pinout, needs adapter with top cap).

I hope I was able to answer properly, in short:
- switch on grid biases only decouples the variable output and let's the amplifier work with fixed internal ones as the stock version (locked to the tube types predefined)
- I have used KT66/KT77/KT88 each with its specific grid bias voltages (ok, in my specific case KT66 on fixed bias, switches off, and KT77/KT88 on variable, switches on and then adjusted)

I hope it is clear. More details about this are here.


----------



## OctavianH (May 14, 2021)

SonicTrance said:


> It depends what you mean by matched pairs I guess. If one tube draws 15mA and the other 24mA it's ok in Eternity but the tubes are still grossly unbalanced. To me, a matched pair is within 5-10% to each other.
> 
> With that said, of course matched pairs are better for SQ and also for OCD peace of mind 🙃



10% is great, but I have here 2 pairs of KT77 which measure like:





This means, these are out of Eternity's tolerance for output stage, not meeting 15-24mA. what I have done, observing that these have very close (or identical) internal construction, is to match them in "X" like one strong from each pair will form another "strong" pair. The same for a "weak" pair.





Now, since the stronger ones are closer, I have decided to use those. These have between them 4mA at the same grid bias voltage.

But now in play comes the fact that these KT77 are "muscular" tubes which draw at startup around 3mA more until they stabilise. This means, if I say for example, I will set the bias for the stronger tube in the pair to 21mA, to have ther other at 17mA, at startup the stronger one will draw op to 24mA and the weaker one up to 20mA. Quite close to the maximum and I do not want to jump over it. Another solution would be to bias the strong one to 20mA but in this case the weak one would fail to 16mA. It will work, but I have observed slight sound improvements if the tubes are kep around 18mA-22mA. If the tubes go to the lower part of the interval, I have a feeling that soundwise we do not obtain the optimal performance. I might be crazy, as I always said, we hear what our brain tells us to hear.

At the moment I do like this:
I set bias for the stronger one to 20mA at startup, let them stabilise, than increase the current to 22mA to have the other around 18mA.
Before turning off, I just decrease it again to 20mA, then turn off (to be sure in the morning when I am still sleepy I do not have a surprise).





This is definitely a problem of my tubes, I have very unmatched tubes, all 4 in perfect working condition, but without variable grid bias I was dead.
I have no idea why KT77 are so hungry, drawing so much at startup, other types are around 1mA. Maybe all 4 of mine are faulty? Hell knows.

PS. Another thing I have observed at KT77 is that they are very sensible at bias adjustment, a slightly touch of the multiturn trimmer increases the current a lot (same when measuring them outside the amp). So I have to be VERY careful not to touch by mistake something while operation. I think 10 degres clockwise went 1mA! Other tubes behave differently. You rotate with confidence to increase the same amount.


----------



## LoryWiv (May 14, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> OK.. she's got a great voice I'll give you that.. but I have to say I haven't really been a fan. Saying that I'm always willing to be wrong!
> 
> I have to agree with UT, he has all my CD's anyway!
> 
> Edit: What about Adele.. or Alison Krauss, for the sake of Anglo American relations . Hmmm I wonder if that female golfer in the bunker sings?


Too many great singers to name especially if you branch into other genres. I *love *great gear with Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan or the great Sandy Denny of "Who Kows Where The Time Goes" fame. Her singing that with Fairport Convention is my gold standard for female vocal reproduction. Even though it's an older recording it can send chills up the spine and warmth around the heart.


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> When I wrote that I totally ignored the electrical part and I try to describe the effect I obtained with various tube types. Now I will try to explain the missing part.
> 
> Eternity uses 2 triodes / channel. I call them triodes and not tubes because there are tubes which contain in the same glass envelope 2 triodes (for example 6SN7).
> In the past I was calling the ones on the front drivers and the ones on the back powers, but here in Eternity I call them inputs and outputs because Tomas explained me that they do not drive anything like on the classic designs. Those 2 triodes on the front form the input stage. The 2 triodes on the back form the output stage. In my case, I have 3 tube sockets on the front and an input switch to decide which of those will be used as my input stage. The reason is exactly what I mentioned before, I can use 2 x single triode tubes or just one double triode tube (middle socket). Each stage has an operation point, a pair of voltage and current at which the tubes have to be run. If we are not biasing the tube to meet these operation points we are damaging the circuitry. Tomas set the values for me as follows (and I think this would be valid for all Eternity builds) at 180V/4mA for input stage and 200V/20mA for output stage. Each tube type has different electrical parameters, therefore, in order to operate at the desired operating point (basically to have the current at the previously mentioned value, because the anode voltage is fixed) needs a different grid voltage applied to it. This grid voltage, we call bias, is a negative voltage which is regulating the current through the tube. And this voltage is applied to both tubes in a stage in the current design. Basically you can imagine it as a valve (water tap) from which you decide the amount of current which will "flow" through the tube. Of course, each operating point has a tolerance, which in Eternity's case is 3-5mA and 15-24mA, depending on the stage. This means that if we are able to set grid bias voltages to keep both tubes in the stage (for example both L63 or both KT66) in that range, the amplifier will work properly.
> ...


Clear, thanks for that! I didn't realise you had 3 input sockets and therefore had to switch depending on what inputs were in use.

So did you hear any differences when using KT77 on fixed bias and KT77 on variable?


----------



## OctavianH (May 14, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> So did you hear any differences when using KT77 on fixed bias and KT77 on variable?


I cannot use KT77 on fixed bias (it is set for KT66). I tried it only on variable. But in general, using the same tube on fixed or variable (in my case I can do this only with KT66) provides not difference. It is just a voltage value which is preset inside or you set it manually via a knob. I tried KT66 in both cases, just to see how it goes, no difference.
Just to have an idea: for KT66 I set -21.5V and for KT77 I need around -18.5V.


----------



## baronbeehive

Hey guys I see that annual extravagansa of nonsense, the Eurovision song contest is back on May 22nd! It was cancelled last year due to the pandemic and I missed it a lot. So all of you in Euroland.. and Australia.. , good luck, and may England come last as usual .


----------



## OctavianH

baronbeehive said:


> Hey guys I see that annual extravagansa of nonsense, the Eurovision song contest is back on May 22nd! It was cancelled last year due to the pandemic and I missed it a lot. So all of you in Euroland.. and Australia.. , good luck, and may England come last as usual .



Ah, Euro-vision. Beautiful name. I think in 2006 it was decent:


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> Ah, Euro-vision. Beautiful name. I think in 2006 it was decent:



That one sticks in my mind for some reason!


----------



## hpamdr

baronbeehive said:


> That one sticks in my mind for some reason!


(since the 90') For me those song will not last for Eternity


----------



## baronbeehive

hpamdr said:


> (since the 90') For me those song will not last for Eternity


NO! They never were any good .


----------



## UntilThen

Sunday morning at minus 3 degrees outside, my cave is nice and warm from 3 tube amps. There is no other place I rather be right now.  

This is where it gets interesting.... listening to LCD4 with Oblivion for the first time and being able to A/B Oblivion with Destiny 1 and 2 instantaneously with LCD4 and HD650. More headphones and a Denafrips ss amp will be arriving when @Yetiman72 comes in 3 hours time.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Sunday morning at minus 3 degrees outside, my cave is nice and warm from 3 tube amps. There is no other place I rather be right now.
> 
> This is where it gets interesting.... listening to LCD4 with Oblivion for the first time and being able to A/B Oblivion with Destiny 1 and 2 instantaneously with LCD4 and HD650. More headphones and a Denafrips ss amp will be arriving when @Yetiman72 comes in 3 hours time.


Cool! Let us know what you think about the Oblivion - LCD4 pairing!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Cool! Let us know what you think about the Oblivion - LCD4 pairing!



Astounding is the only word I can think of.

Setup is Roon with my flac files and Tidal HiFi libraries. Yggdrasil on duty feeding all 3 amps. xlr to xlr for Oblivion and rca to rca for both Destiny 1 & 2.

Oblivion with LCD4 is tight, nuanced and control and a clarity that wakes me up. Destiny shifted focus to mid and bass where I'm drowned in rich tube tones. After many songs both amps performance with LCD4 left me wanting for more. Despite the 300b amps more euphonic tone, I am more drawn to Oblivion precision, timing and details. Jury still out on what I prefer more. On certain songs I prefer one over the other. 

With HD650, I smile the widest. What these 3 amps do to this forgotten headphone is amazing.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> With HD650, I smile the widest. What these 3 amps do to this forgotten headphone is amazing.


Yes HD650 is really a wonderful headphone when it is driven correctly. Even if it seems sensible enough to be driven easily it give you the best only with paired with a very good amplifier. It is not a bass and sub-bass king but paired with a tube amplifier, full range seems to be very natural. As it is quite sensible, if the amp is not quiet enough it start to be fatiguing if you have heating or RFI noises all the time as background sound.  This is an headphone you can get in second hand market for very few but the bucks need to be spent on the amplifier...

I will test it with eternity for sure with some Satie piano pieces !


----------



## UntilThen

@Yetiman72  came by with an army of headphones. Kennerton Neoteric 'Dusk', Kennerton Thekk Curly Maple, Mr Speakers Ether Flow and C, Pioneer SE-Monitors 5, Fostex th900 mk2, Beyer t5 p2, LCD3f. 

We had an great time testing these headphones with Oblivion and Destiny. Shane said that Oblivion is great sounding, smooth, clear and powerful. That's his comments. Obviously he likes his new Destiny 2 as well. He went home a happy man and I hope to get him back when Odyssey is here..... with those headphones again.


----------



## OctavianH

I am very curious about Kennerton headphones. Tell us more.


----------



## UntilThen

Kennerton are lighter in tone than LCD4. Neoteric Dusk is a dynamic headphone and is speedy, lively and dynamic. Thekk Curly Maple is a planar magnetic and and has a lighter tone than LCD4. Of the 2 I prefer the Neoteric Dusk which is pretty impressive. The looks as well. 

I was impressed with Fostex th900 mk2. It's a brighter sound with good impact and blends well with Destiny and has an extra zing with Oblivion. Beyer t5 p2 is a surprise. I could love that headphone. Other headphones I like are both Mr Speakers. Sound and comfort gets top marks from me.


----------



## UntilThen

With Shane gone, I sat down for more poison.... I could not get enough of casablanca ... 

In case you don't know what I'm mumbling about, facts about casablanca...

Classic movie that came out in 1942, and probably has the best known lines in film history. For example:

_"If that plane leaves the ground and you're not with him, you'll regret it. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon — and for the rest of your life."_
This is telling me if I don't get my tube amps now, I will regret it !

_"Louis, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship."_
I think so. Tube amps are what makes this hobby great for me. It's the beginning of a beautiful friendship !!!

_"We'll always have Paris."_
Yeah right... I rather have Oblivion and Destiny... and soon Odyssey.

Well that was off the script by a mile. I blame Bcowen.

What I want to say is that I have had Oblivion for 510 days. Yes that right 510 days from 23.12.2019 to 16.05.2021. Listening to LCD4 with Oblivion, this reminds me of Casablanca. An exotic club in Casablanca north west of Morocco. Smoke swirling from a cigar, glass of whisky in hand and Cassandra Wilson singing.....



I did say that for me... Glenn OTL amp was amp of the year 2018, Studio Six was amp of the year for 2019 and Oblivion was amp of the year 2020. 

2021 is still open .... and Odyssey will be built in 2021 and there's Destiny. 

Anyway I was listening to Cassandra Wilson singing 'Time after time' with Oblivion driving LCD4. It's beauuutiful.


----------



## baronbeehive (May 16, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> 2021 is still open .... and Odyssey will be built in 2021 and there's Destiny.
> 
> Anyway I was listening to Cassandra Wilson singing 'Time after time' with Oblivion driving LCD4. It's beauuutiful.



Excellent journey so far.. back to Penelope, all thoughts of the Trojan war a mere memory.. for all you classics fans .

And.. yes.. Cassandra Wilson, another favourite of mine.. check this out:


----------



## SonicTrance

Another Eternity is complete! @hpamdr 

This one has a separate 12V heater transformer with two heater switches. You can have both input and output stage on 6.3V, 12.6V or one stage at 6.3V and the other at 12.6V. 
It also has removable anode cap leads which will come in handy for the EL39 for example. Other add-ons are tube rolling with adjustable bias and a dual triode input socket.


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> Another Eternity is complete! @hpamdr
> 
> This one has a separate 12V heater transformer with two heater switches. You can have both input and output stage on 6.3V, 12.6V or one stage at 6.3V and the other at 12.6V.
> It also has removable anode cap leads which will come in handy for the EL39 for example. Other add-ons are tube rolling with adjustable bias and a dual triode input socket.


Awesome!!


----------



## hpamdr

SonicTrance said:


> Another Eternity is complete! @hpamdr
> 
> This one has a separate 12V heater transformer with two heater switches. You can have both input and output stage on 6.3V, 12.6V or one stage at 6.3V and the other at 12.6V.
> It also has removable anode cap leads which will come in handy for the EL39 for example. Other add-ons are tube rolling with adjustable bias and a dual triode input socket.


Beautiful 
I hope it will sound as nice as it look once it will be in my cave ! 
If you start to burn with 6C5G and KT66 I will continue with my tubes to get a first impression and then slowly switch to KT88, GU50, EL34, EL39, EL12sp ...
and try 12SN7, 12SL7, FDD20, VT231, 6J5 ...... EL11  
 

I have many hours of experiment in next months !


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> Another Eternity is complete! @hpamdr
> 
> This one has a separate 12V heater transformer with two heater switches. You can have both input and output stage on 6.3V, 12.6V or one stage at 6.3V and the other at 12.6V.
> It also has removable anode cap leads which will come in handy for the EL39 for example. Other add-ons are tube rolling with adjustable bias and a dual triode input socket.


Fabulous!!


----------



## OctavianH

hpamdr said:


> Beautiful
> I hope it will sound as nice as it look once it will be in my cave !
> If you start to burn with 6C5G and KT66 I will continue with my tubes to get a first impression and then slowly switch to KT88, GU50, EL34, EL39, EL12sp ...
> and try 12SN7, 12SL7, FDD20, VT231, 6J5 ...... EL11
> ...



It looks incredible and has a lot of smart customizations like for example those mountable anode caps. I'll wait for you to receive it and then see if my findings are similar with yours. Let's hope more Eternity based amplifiers will be on the way in the next months.


----------



## UntilThen

A smart looking amp. I've grown to love this chassis style.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> Beautiful
> I hope it will sound as nice as it look once it will be in my cave !
> If you start to burn with 6C5G and KT66 I will continue with my tubes to get a first impression and then slowly switch to KT88, GU50, EL34, EL39, EL12sp ...
> and try 12SN7, 12SL7, FDD20, VT231, 6J5 ...... EL11
> ...


You will have a lot of fun experimenting with countless combinations. It will be even more variety than my previous GOTL and these bigger indirect heating power tubes appeal to me more.

Looking forward to your findings with the GU50.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> You will have a lot of fun experimenting with countless combinations. It will be even more variety than my previous GOTL and these bigger indirect heating power tubes appeal to me more.
> 
> Looking forward to your findings with the GU50.


You can imagine how much I can't wait to have at my place  

The removable "anode cap" cable is a good option. I will be able to use it with EL39/EL38 and have adapter for EL12N and EL12sp without cap wire on it same for 807...


----------



## OctavianH

hpamdr said:


> The removable "anode cap" cable is a good option. I will be able to use it with EL39/EL38 and have adapter for EL12N and EL12sp without cap wire on it same for 807...


Groundbreaking feature! 

By the way, I've seen that your build does not have the anti-vibration feet and I think the reason behind this is that the weight center is on the left side due to the positioning of those transformers, so without perfect equilibrium those feet do not make sense. Am I right?


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> You can imagine how much I can't wait to have at my place
> 
> The removable "anode cap" cable is a good option. I will be able to use it with EL39/EL38 and have adapter for EL12N and EL12sp without cap wire on it same for 807...



It's a nice feature but as I already have my adapters with cap wire, I'm not sure I need it unless I buy new tubes like the GEC TT21.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Groundbreaking feature!
> 
> By the way, I've seen that your build does not have the anti-vibration feet and I think the reason behind this is that the weight center is on the left side due to the positioning of those transformers, so without perfect equilibrium those feet do not make sense. Am I right?


Not really needed. Just buy 3 of these and put 2 on the heavy side.
https://www.selby.com.au/isoacousti...ADQH5gvHJHw5g7BU0wge1wiS4EFckqVxoCTxAQAvD_BwE


----------



## hpamdr

OctavianH said:


> Groundbreaking feature!
> 
> By the way, I've seen that your build does not have the anti-vibration feet and I think the reason behind this is that the weight center is on the left side due to the positioning of those transformers, so without perfect equilibrium those feet do not make sense. Am I right?


I prefer the look of the spike so i asked for. Noting really vibrate inside and as i do not listen speaker and headphone et same time so i do not have many vibration comming from the room. 
About weight yes allmost all is on the left side view from front.
About antivibration feet @SonicTrance can give you more hint if it is useful or not when not having same pressure on each feet.


----------



## UntilThen

What a surprise. HD650 sits here unused for about 2 years but now sounding great with Oblivion and Destiny. Getting almost similar enjoyment out of both HD650 and LCD4 although the latter has better details and bass, HD650 sound astonishingly good especially in the mids.

LCD4 is $6200 and HD650 is $260 bought used but mint. Some things in head-fi don't make sense.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> I prefer the look of the spike so i asked for. Noting really vibrate inside and as i do not listen speaker and headphone et same time so i do not have many vibration comming from the room.
> About weight yes allmost all is on the left side view from front.
> About antivibration feet @SonicTrance can give you more hint if it is useful or not when not having same pressure on each feet.


I too like the look of spikes but when you've to move your amp often, that's when it's a hassle especially when you put your amp in a rack shelf other than the top shelf.

Other advantage of the spike feet is the ability to adjust for levelness. 

In my setup I've no need for isolation feet. In the rack I just don't feel any feedback.


----------



## UntilThen

UntilThen said:


> What a surprise. HD650 sits here unused for about 2 years but now sounding great with Oblivion and Destiny. Getting almost similar enjoyment out of both HD650 and LCD4 although the latter has better details and bass, HD650 sound astonishingly good especially in the mids.
> 
> LCD4 is $6200 and HD650 is $260 bought used but mint. Some things in head-fi don't make sense.



Listening to LCD4 again, I have to eat my words. LCD4 just leaves HD650 in the dust and it's going back into the corner.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> I too like the look of spikes but when you've to move your amp often, that's when it's a hassle especially when you put your amp in a rack shelf other than the top shelf.


I know about this as my main amp (34 Kg) have spikes and is inside a "rack".  I do not move too often my stuff.
To insert inside a rack you need some practice and some space  
This will for sure not alter my listening experience. 

But for sure if i had to move from one city to another or wanted to listen on vacation, I would have prefered regular feet


----------



## SonicTrance

hpamdr said:


> I prefer the look of the spike so i asked for. Noting really vibrate inside and as i do not listen speaker and headphone et same time so i do not have many vibration comming from the room.
> About weight yes allmost all is on the left side view from front.
> About antivibration feet @SonicTrance can give you more hint if it is useful or not when not having same pressure on each feet.


It's a bit side heavy but not as much as you would think! Most components on the inside are mounted on the other side of the transformers so it balances out nicely. Regarding the spikes or ant-vibration feet I think you should choose whatever you think looks best. There's no vibration coming from the amp. If there're other factors that might cause the amp to vibrate then the anti-vibration feet would be better.



UntilThen said:


> I too like the look of spikes but when you've to move your amp often, that's when it's a hassle especially when you put your amp in a rack shelf other than the top shelf.
> 
> Other advantage of the spike feet is the ability to adjust for levelness.
> 
> In my setup I've no need for isolation feet. In the rack I just don't feel any feedback.


You can also unscrew the bottom part of the spikes if you like. That way you don't scratch up whatever surface you put the amp on without the pucks. Just remembered you have the OG version with a fan underneath. Perhaps that won't work for you.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> You can also unscrew the bottom part of the spikes if you like. That way you don't scratch up whatever surface you put the amp on without the pucks. Just remembered you have the OG version with a fan underneath. Perhaps that won't work for you.



I can but I won't need to do that now. Won't need to move Oblivion back and forth anymore. It will live in the rack where it is securely rested on spikes and pucks. 

I like Oblivion because there's no tube rolling required and for it's own unique tone. Destiny brings a nice change. I believe Odyssey will bring it's own unique tone. So there will be 3 tube amps with it's own sonic signature stamp. My head-fi setup is pretty much done.


----------



## UntilThen

I want to highlight this short paragraph ...

_The same sort of thing happens all the time, Hansen says, when people go shopping for stereo gear. “In a 5- or 30-minute demonstration in the sales room, the guy goes, ‘Wow, I want to buy that!’ But then he lives with it, and six months later it’s for sale on Audiogon.”
The problem, Hansen believes, is that people are too fixated on the gear and not enough on the experience the gear is supposed to provide. “Don’t be thinking about how the treble or bass sounds, or this or that detail, the ‘soundstaging,’” he counsels. “None of that matters. After the song is over, ask yourself, ‘Was I completely sucked in? Did I forget about everything else?’ Or were you thinking about the bills you need to pay, the deadline on this article. If you can get completely lost in the music, then it’s a really good stereo system. It doesn’t matter if it’s tubes, transistors, or a hamster on wheel. All that matters is that you got lost in the music. If you’re listening to music and your system doesn’t do that for you, your system is broken.”_

This is an extract from this fascinating article entitled 'Could an Old-School Tube amp make the music you love sound better? Take the time to read through it.
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/ar...ube-amp-make-the-music-you-love-sound-better/


----------



## UntilThen

6 days since I return to this thread and 6 days since I power on Oblivion and what a delight this amp is to use driving LCD4. The lift in clarity, airiness and details over Destiny is refreshing. I always marvel that this hybrid amp is so very quiet and the volume knob is so smooth to turn. 

In a last shootout with Auralic Taurus Mk2, the solid state is very good but Oblivion is just so much better in every way. Tone, depth and width of soundstage and power ! It's the only reason I sold off v280 and Taurus because I still have Oblivion. After a year and a half, I still love Oblivion. It has seen off GOTL and Studio Six and those are not light weight amps.

I don't need a Wells Milo or a Pass Lab to drive LCD4 because Oblivion is a revelation with LCD4. Now to save up for a Abyss 1266 TC for Oblivion.

It's a tribute to Oblivion when @Yetiman72 was listening to LCD4 with both Destiny and when he plug that headphone into Oblivion, he was genuinely impressed. Just watching his expression I knew that Oblivion impressed him. That's the first time he heard Oblivion.

First time in a month that I power on Oblivion and not Destiny. 'What's going on !' as the song by 4 Non Blondes comes on.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> It's a tribute to Oblivion when @Yetiman72 was listening to LCD4 with both Destiny and when he plug that headphone into Oblivion, he was genuinely impressed. Just watching his expression I knew that Oblivion impressed him. That's the first time he heard Oblivion.
> 
> First time in a month that I power on Oblivion and not Destiny. 'What's going on !' as the song by 4 Non Blondes comes on.


Great stuff! Your amp build must be starting soon?

Love that song !


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Great stuff! Your amp build must be starting soon?
> 
> Love that song !



I think Tomas is already starting the prep work.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I think Tomas is already starting the prep work.


I have started with some small bits and pieces. Waiting for the Sowter OTs. They're scheduled for delivery in beginning of June.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I have started with some small bits and pieces.


----------



## hpamdr

I finally received my Eternity amplifier during the weekend but not able to really test it a lot.... I will have to wait for next week to do it seriously.
Anyway: 

Thanks to Tomas to make good packaging. I received the box with damaged corner and upside-down despite the multiple labels !
I was not really able to test many tubes seriously but what is really great is that the amp is dead silent.
I just did some tube rolling but one option i like a lot the the output switch with a none position !
The amp is powerful enough for Heddphone and probably any other headphone on the market !
The sound is what i wanted ! Clear, precise and very dynamic, but with the refined "tubey" sound taste. It is for me a much better amp than Euforia. 
so  Tomas @SonicTrance !

_What is upseting me is that i do not have much time at my place to listen music during this week  _


----------



## UntilThen

Congrats @hpamdr now how about just one picture


----------



## baronbeehive

hpamdr said:


> I finally received my Eternity amplifier during the weekend but not able to really test it a lot.... I will have to wait for next week to do it seriously.
> Anyway:
> 
> Thanks to Tomas to make good packaging. I received the box with damaged corner and upside-down despite the multiple labels !
> ...


Great!

Looks like all that packaging did it's job! That sound signature is the sort of sound that I would like myself. Looking forward to impressions.



hpamdr said:


> _What is upseting me is that i do not have much time at my place to listen music during this week _


OMG.. !


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Congrats @hpamdr now how about just one picture


First test with GU50 and 6p5s.... And very quick impressions.

Currently i like a lot GU50 Solid Bass extension, very detailed and a dynamic beast !
The drivers i have experienced right now are the 12SL7 / 6H9S the high amplification factor seems to match very well with Tomas design. The 6j5,6C5 (6p5s) need a bit more Volume and are a bit more precise good for blues and rock but less enjoyable than SL type with vocal jazz and pop !
As i have a lot of stuff to monitor, i only do quick test (15 minutes) and the amp is not yet at final place.....
Sound comparison with Euforia is almost as comparing size.... So you have a picture..


----------



## bcowen

hpamdr said:


> First test with GU50 and 6p5s.... And very quick impressions.
> 
> Currently i like a lot GU50 Solid Bass extension, very detailed and a dynamic beast !
> The drivers i have experienced right now are the 12SL7 / 6H9S the high amplification factor seems to match very well with Tomas design. The 6j5,6C5 (6p5s) need a bit more Volume and are a bit more precise good for blues and rock but less enjoyable than SL type with vocal jazz and pop !
> ...


Beautiful.  Congrats!


----------



## UntilThen

Some serious tubes there GU50.


----------



## Maxx134 (May 31, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> 😀


I only quoting this because I love the turntable. 😊



SonicTrance said:


> Other add-ons are tube rolling with adjustable bias and a dual triode input socket.


This is good, because within the linear range of bias, there can be preferences. 🙃🙂




UntilThen said:


> I like Oblivion because there's no tube rolling required and for it's own unique tone





UntilThen said:


> After a year and a half, I still love Oblivion. It has seen off GOTL and Studio Six and those are not light weight amps


I do believe it has its own character.
I also found tube preferences. 🙂



UntilThen said:


> I don't need a Wells Milo or a Pass Lab to drive LCD4 because Oblivion is a revelation with LCD4. Now to save up for a Abyss 1266 TC for Oblivion.


Heard all of that.. Wells, PL, etc..
So far, the only solid state amp that I would consider is a PassLab, BUT, I still would never buy a solid state amp.
But the Abyss livened up with the oblivion noticably over some other  amps(in my past post).

Tube amps always reign supreme, as they convey the tiniest nuances of all aspects, _*effortlessly... *_Something that the best SS amps always fight to accomplish.



Redge78 said:


> Maybe one day I'll buy one ... and mod it to death !
> 
> Redge78


Haha I'm glad he stopped by.
I myself also could not resist and did "mod" mine, but just for the "unobtanium" tube selection (Mullard 6AT6 drivers & Mazda 6DR6 outputs) and my own choice of first stage input caps(!) inside.
😋


----------



## Maxx134

I keep forgetting that I am the thread starter (!), So I going to have to play catch up and read what has to be updated in first page..🙃🙂


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx where have you been? You come on and gave a 101 likes. Only Bcowen does that.   

Like you, I'm a tube amp lover and I'm getting Tomas to build me an old school amp.


----------



## OctavianH

Morning coffee with Eternity. Yeap, I know, it looks like evening because here it rains for a week.






No problem, when it rains, we listen to music.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> I only quoting this because I love the turntable. 😊



I love that turntable too. I feel it resolves better than Yggdrasil but both are my pet love. Only my tube amps surpass that love. Now thinking about Odyssey. Bought many gear this year but Odyssey is the most anticipated gear for me. I await Tomas to do his magic.


----------



## Maxx134 (Jun 1, 2021)

I updated first page with the new amp pics but have to read up on design and what led up to this...Is it more Old school design choices? Who did this to him? Lol


----------



## OctavianH

Maxx134 said:


> I updated first page with the new amp pics but have to read up on design and what led up to this...Is it more Old school design choices? Who did this to him? Lol


If you are interested in the history, there is a childish story wrote here about the first Eternity. There is also a thread for tube rolling which describes a little bit more of the new models here. This is the information I was able to gather and summarize.


----------



## SonicTrance

Maxx134 said:


> I updated first page with the new amp pics but have to read up on design and what led up to this...Is it more Old school design choices? Who did this to him? Lol


Hey Maxx!
None of my standard amps are old school design. The new ones, Infinity and Eternity are SE versions of the Oblivion/Citadel amps. With Infinity being the more powerful one of the two.
What @UntilThen is talking about is a custom build I'm doing for him. That amp has nothing to do with my normal offerings. It's a completely custom SET amp, using EL11 (with optional 6SL7) drivers, KT88 outputs and GZ34 rectifier. Old school design with big, heavy, expensive OT's in series feed. This amp is built to give UT some contrast to his Oblivion!


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> Maxx134 said:
> 
> 
> > I only quoting this because I love the turntable. 😊
> ...





Maxx134 said:


> Haha I'm glad he stopped by.
> I myself also could not resist and did "mod" mine, but just for the "unobtanium" tube selection (Mullard 6AT6 drivers & Mazda 6DR6 outputs) and my own choice of first stage input caps(!) inside.
> 😋


I didn't think for a moment you could resist that lol!


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> I updated first page with the new amp pics but have to read up on design and what led up to this...Is it more Old school design choices? Who did this to him? Lol


You have SOME reading to do, I've been following on this thread and even then I found it difficult to keep up .


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Hey Maxx!
> None of my standard amps are old school design. The new ones, Infinity and Eternity are SE versions of the Oblivion/Citadel amps. With Infinity being the more powerful one of the two.
> What @UntilThen is talking about is a custom build I'm doing for him. That amp has nothing to do with my normal offerings. It's a completely custom SET amp, using EL11 (with optional 6SL7) drivers, KT88 outputs and GZ34 rectifier. Old school design with big, heavy, expensive OT's in series feed. This amp is built to give UT some contrast to his Oblivion!



That's right. The only old school design in Tomas's portfolio would be Odyssey. Everything he does so far has been new school.  

I wanted to create 'Berlin' based on all my Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez tubes that I've been keeping for a few years. Berlin because these are German tubes and 'Takes My Breath Away' is the song that inspires it.   

But then I got hold of Elekit TU-8200 and I was impressed with the power tubes used in this amp. KT88, KT77, EL34, EL12 spez, KT66, 807, 6550..... 

Hence Berlin became Odyssey. It will be more than just EL11 and EL12 spez. 

Was this a gamble? No. Even though I like Oblivion's tone, I also like what the Elekit TU-8200 produce. After I listen to Auris Nirvana at the shop with LCD4 and Susvara for 2 hours, I knew that an old school SET amp has to be in my music room too. 

Then whilst waiting, Destiny arrived. It's an old school design McChanson 300b amp. Just love this amp tone. Now I'm just wondering and I recall Tomas saying that he will do a parafeed new school 300b for himself as an experiment. How will this differ from Destiny? An answer that I will never find out because I intend to retire from the amp world after Odyssey. After this amp comes home, that will be it. UntilThen will become TheEnd.  I will take up painting ! Monet !!!


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> UntilThen will become TheEnd.  I will take up painting ! Monet !!!


Painters usually get rich after they die. I think you should stick to tube amps.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Painters usually get rich after they die. I think you should stick to tube amps.



No more upgrades except a pair of this next year to be driven by Odyssey.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> No more upgrades except a pair of this next year to be driven by Odyssey.


Why stop there?  How about a pair of these


----------



## baronbeehive

Just come across this, the theme tune for this thread:


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Just come across this, the theme tune for this thread:



This is my choice from our very own talented Tina Arena.    Night fever ! That's the tube amp fever sweeping this thread.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Why stop there?  How about a pair of these



This is so coincidental. I was just browsing Youtube clips of the Altec 604-8G. Then I thought about you... 

This is the only decent video clip of that model.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Jun 2, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> This is so coincidental. I was just browsing Youtube clips of the Altec 604-8G. Then I thought about you...
> 
> This is the only decent video clip of that model.




That vid shows them off well!  This is my dream speaker this week.  Great Plains Audio makes a contemporary version of the legendary 604 driver, the owner is a former Altec engineer, people say the GPA version is even better than the original.  For the driver and crossover, it'll cost you around $2,000 USD each plus the cost for a pair of custom cabinets that weigh 100lbs each   oh and a house upgrade too, at least for me, these babies gotta breathe.  This is why it is a dream speaker LOL maybe someday.  100dB/W though, great tube speakers  maybe Zu Audio is the better choice after all.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> That vid shows them off well!  This is my dream speaker this week.  Great Plains Audio makes a contemporary version of the legendary 604 driver, the owner is a former Altec engineer, people say the GPA version is even better than the original.  For the driver and crossover, it'll cost you around $2,000 USD each plus the cost for a pair of custom cabinets that *weight 100lbs each*  oh and a house upgrade too, at least for me, these babies gotta breathe.  This is why it is a dream speaker LOL maybe someday.  100dB/W though, great tube speakers  maybe Zu Audio is the better choice after all.



Omg. Bcowen you think you can carry a pair of the Altec to Australia?


----------



## UntilThen

Woke up this morning and I see Tomas's message to me. It's always good to hear from Tomas because it's always good news.  

Anyhoo, build for Odyssey has started in earnest and he has done some spectacular work. When I saw these 2 pictures, I stared at it for several minutes. The attention to details is amazing, especially the chassis top. Well the back too. Just another rotary knob not in yet where the hole is. When I memorise the positioning I'll remove the 1,2,3 stickers. Shouldn't be hard to remember that.   

With the Yamamoto sockets, alignments are so precise. All octal sockets are facing the same way, with the EL11 sockets like a pair of eyes. No brackets to fasten the sockets. Just 2 simple screws to each socket. It's a clean, simple look and I like it. 

Still waiting for Sowter output transformers to arrive.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Woke up this morning and I see Tomas's message to me. It's always good to hear from Tomas because it's always good news.
> 
> Anyhoo, build for Odyssey has started in earnest and he has done some spectacular work. When I saw these 2 pictures, I stared at it for several minutes. The attention to details is amazing, especially the chassis top. Well the back too. Just another rotary knob not in yet where the hole is. When I memorise the positioning I'll remove the 1,2,3 stickers. Shouldn't be hard to remember that.
> 
> ...



If that is the Hammond mains transformer I spy in the top right corner of photo 1, it will match the naked Sowter end bells perfectly!


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> If that is the Hammond mains transformer I spy in the top right corner of photo 1, it will match the naked Sowter end bells perfectly!



That's the Hammond mains. It had originally gloss black paint but Tomas ordered silver chrome end bells from the supplier and swap it. 

You're right. The idea is to match the Sowter silver irons. This is the next best thing after Sowter decided alas to stop making custom mains transformer after Tomas order has already gone in for several weeks.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Omg. Bcowen you think you can carry a pair of the Altec to Australia?


Depends on how long the battery in the golf cart lasts.  

I'll bring you a pair of these instead.  98.82 dB sensitivity....and look better with the grilles on.    

https://tektondesign.com/product/full-range-speakers/full-towers/double-impact/#color


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> and look better with the grilles on.


Dunno about these, but the other type of grills are better known as barbie down under...


----------



## SonicTrance

L0rdGwyn said:


> If that is the Hammond mains transformer I spy in the top right corner of photo 1, it will match the naked Sowter end bells perfectly!


I looked hard for a silver mains tranny with proper specs but couldn't find one. Fortunately, Hammond has a black one with just right specs and I found proper size silver end bells to match!


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Woke up this morning and I see Tomas's message to me. It's always good to hear from Tomas because it's always good news.
> 
> Anyhoo, build for Odyssey has started in earnest and he has done some spectacular work. When I saw these 2 pictures, I stared at it for several minutes. The attention to details is amazing, especially the chassis top. Well the back too. Just another rotary knob not in yet where the hole is. When I memorise the positioning I'll remove the 1,2,3 stickers. Shouldn't be hard to remember that.
> 
> ...


You won't wear those sockets out


----------



## L0rdGwyn

whirlwind said:


> You won't wear those sockets out



Definitely not!  The ones I have in my 6A5G amp are still rock solid, pins are nice and tight, really are the best out there.  I like the vintage Amphenol I have in my new amp too, I think going vintage is a solid option, better than a lot of the new production stuff.  Some of the old mil-spec Soviet tube sockets are very well-made too.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> You won't wear those sockets out



Finally getting an amp that uses these sockets. I bought over my friend's GZ34 metal base. It's going into Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

11:28pm Sydney time and I received more updates from Tomas. This time I'm quite speechless with happiness because Odyssey looks incredible even without the irons. It's snow white silver. So pure, like sterling silver.  

What can I say Tomas. It's stunningly beautiful. The Hammond mains with silver end bells will be just perfect on top of the chassis.  



The name plate - Odyssey.  Thanks Tomas. This is so personal.  Should have call it UntilThen.


----------



## OctavianH

It looks incredible. You are lucky! Congrats.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> 11:28pm Sydney time and I received more updates from Tomas. This time I'm quite speechless with happiness because Odyssey looks incredible even without the irons. It's snow white silver. So pure, like sterling silver.
> 
> What can I say Tomas. It's stunningly beautiful. The Hammond mains with silver end bells will be just perfect on top of the chassis.
> 
> ...


Love it!


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 5, 2021)

Further update. Tomas made me a new driver !!!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Further update. Tomas made me a new driver !!!


Is it waterproof?
😉


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Is it waterproof?
> 😉


I keep advising him to just take the penalty rather than try to putt out of the water, but he doesn't listen.  Sometimes I think I'm just a 'golf club carrier' rather than  a true caddy.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> I keep advising him to just take the penalty rather than try to putt out of the water, but he doesn't listen.  Sometimes I think I'm just a 'golf club carrier' rather than  a true caddy.


I think maybe his mind might be on other things atm .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I think maybe his mind might be on other things atm .



Sheeesh ... my mind's on this now. Some new genres. 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/k-pop-j-pop-suggestions.915923/post-16395145


----------



## UntilThen

@bcowen  stop sleeping. It's breaking news.


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey is morphing .... and it's scary. Scarily beautiful. So one picture at a time. Today is Sunday 13th June 2021. I see Odyssey with tubes for the 1st time !!! With EL11 and KT88 and 6SL7 tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

I was talking merrily on other threads until Tomas send me these pictures. Heartbeats went up by several miles per hour. I'm sure if I tee off on a par 5, I will nail it now !!! Bcowen where is the cart ????


----------



## UntilThen

One life one love.... still listening to the frigging One song by Bono and Mary J Blige and Odyssey is great even without sound !!!


----------



## UntilThen

I think it's U2 day. Still Haven't Found What I am looking for....


----------



## UntilThen

EXCEPT I have found what I am looking for ! In Odyssey .... with or without Sowter output transformers.


----------



## UntilThen

It's perfect. The dimension and spacing of tubes. Turns out better than I thought. If those Sowter output transformers don't turn up I'll have to steal @L0rdGwyn or @leftside 's Sowter output transformers. 

This came from Tomas and I've to read it several times.... to comprehendo - that's in Latin !

_As you can see I've added a small toggle switch to the top plate just behind the 6SL7 socket. That's to control the negative feedback. When the switch is up feedback is ON, switch down towards you feedback OFF. The feedback is only for the EL11. The 6SL7 socket is open loop always. *Only switch this with amp OFF!*
When you want to use the dual triode socket, and still have EL11 tubes in the amp, you need to toggle that switch down to OFF. Otherwise there'll be high voltage on the EL11 plates unnecessarily.

This will give you even more sound tuning possibility! Gain will increase with feedback OFF. You really only need the feedback in UL mode. Distortion will go up without it. I therefore only recommend you use UL mode with the EL11's._


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I was talking merrily on other threads until Tomas send me these pictures. Heartbeats went up by several miles per hour. I'm sure if I tee off on a par 5, I will nail it now !!! Bcowen where is the cart ????



Another 30 minutes and all the lake water should be drained out.  Sorry about the Akai that sparked and died almost instantly, but I doubt you'll be missing it much when that beautiful Odyssey arrives!


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Another 30 minutes and all the lake water should be drained out.  Sorry about the Akai that sparked and died almost instantly, but I doubt you'll be missing it much when that beautiful Odyssey arrives!



I forgive you Bcowen. After I see these pictures, I'm giving you the cart ! You can have it !. 

After months of dreaming, visualising and racking my brains, finally Odyssey is almost done .... except where is the output transformers Sowter? If you want those transformers to be known the whole world wide, you better send Tomas the transformers quick !

Optimus Prime.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I forgive you Bcowen. After I see these pictures, I'm giving you the cart ! You can have it !.


Very generous of you, but that cart is all rusted out for some reason.  I'd like a new one please.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Very generous of you, but that cart is all rusted out for some reason.  I'd like a new one please.


Next time - may I suggest installing the electronics on the roof? Might survive your frequent dips in the pond


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> Next time - may I suggest installing the electronics on the roof? Might survive your frequent dips in the pond


It was a 1970's phase altering and time domain smearing equalizer.  Mercy killing.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> It was a 1970's phase altering and time domain smearing equalizer.  Mercy killing.



Are you talking about my vintage Akai? Selling it at $75 is the greatest mistake of my life. I basically gave my smileys away for free !


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I was talking merrily on other threads until Tomas send me these pictures. Heartbeats went up by several miles per hour. I'm sure if I tee off on a par 5, I will nail it now !!! Bcowen where is the cart ????


*OMG *...


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> *OMG *...



It's OMG moment right? When Tomas send me these pictures I replied with OMG x 3. That was this early morning.  

Now I ask him to put in the EL12 spez and show me a photo. That's Berlin in action !

You see I can use this adapter in the 6SL7 slot for 12au7, 12at7 or 12ax7. Blend in right?


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 13, 2021)

And now the Berlin I've been waiting for....   More than anything I wanted to see the Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez in a custom made amp and here it is in the flesh and despite the adapters, it look great !!!

Now dying to hear how it sound in those tubes combination.





@Rossliew , @paramesh , @hypnos1 , @Yetiman72 , @xtiva    have a look


----------



## UntilThen

Now I really would like to buy this 596 rectifier with adapter from Woo Audio.... in good time. It will be totally matching.


----------



## paramesh

UntilThen said:


> And now the Berlin I've been waiting for....   More than anything I wanted to see the Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez in a custom made amp and here it is in the flesh and despite the adapters, it look great !!!
> 
> Now dying to hear how it sound in those tubes combination.
> 
> ...


oooollalala !!! whaaaaaww!! i can visualise your seething anticipation !!


----------



## UntilThen

paramesh said:


> oooollalala !!! whaaaaaww!! i can visualise your seething anticipation !!


You got to have one too Paramesh !!!


----------



## paramesh

UntilThen said:


> You got to have one too Paramesh !!!


This will pressure me to let go one of my treasures in my harem 
But ...still  am waiting for those impressions !!


----------



## SonicTrance (Jun 13, 2021)

I fixed those ugly orange anode wires for you @UntilThen
Lucky for you I'm an old PC modder so I still have lots of cable sleeving at home. Found a nice gray color that matches your EL12 spez pretty nice!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I fixed those ugly orange anode wires for you @UntilThen
> Lucky for you I'm an old PC modder so I still have lots of cable sleeving at home. Found a nice gray color that matches your EL12 spez pretty nice!



O M G. 🤩 That is purrfect


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> I fixed those ugly orange anode wires for you @UntilThen
> Lucky for you I'm an old PC modder so I still have lots of cable sleeving at home. Found a nice gray color that matches your EL12 spez pretty nice!


Don't encourage him!  Next he'll be wanting black teflon tube sockets to match the base of the tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Don't encourage him!  Next he'll be wanting black teflon tube sockets to match the base of the tubes.



Light bulb moment! I am thinking I should send Tomas all my adapters with wires for the custom look wakaka 😝


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> You see I can use this adapter in the 6SL7 slot for 12au7, 12at7 or 12ax7. Blend in right?



You should probably get some of these for that adapter before they're all gone.  I haven't heard them yet myself, but have a couple on the way:

https://pulsetubestore.com/products...4-12at7-factory-tested-plug-play-ready-to-use


This is a good starting point into the quickly rising pool of slobber on these.  If the monikers are unfamiliar they are all long-term HeadFi'ers with nice equipment and a ton of tube rolling experience, so when there's universal OMG's happening with them it's a "where there's smoke there's fire" kind of thing:    

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-mjolnir-2-listening-impressions.778250/page-239#post-16380762


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks Bcowen. For me it's quality over quantity. I'll take note of Footscray. I happen to have a pair of Brimar 12au7 long plates. What you link for me is the 12at7 equivalent. I have also a pair of Mullard 6201 with gold pins. Over the next 6 months, I'll expand my tubes with some fine quality ones. I still have to chase down some more 6SL7 and 6SN7.

Brimar 12au7 long plates. I have used these in Elekit TU-8200 so I know they are good stuff.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Thanks Bcowen. For me it's quality over quantity. I'll take note of Footscray. I happen to have a pair of Brimar 12au7 long plates. What you link for me is the 12at7 equivalent. I have also a pair of Mullard 6201 with gold pins. Over the next 6 months, I'll expand my tubes with some fine quality ones. I still have to chase down some more 6SL7 and 6SN7.
> 
> Brimar 12au7 long plates. I have used these in Elekit TU-8200 so I know they are good stuff.


Apparently the Footscray's are in another league altogether, at least from what I'm reading.  I'm interested to see what all the hoopla is about.  Brimars in general have been kind of hit or miss for me -- I like some of them a lot (6BQ7A for example) but others leave me cold (later production 6SN7's).  The 12AT7 has almost as much gain as a 6SL7 (and much higher than a 12AU7) so there's that too.


----------



## UntilThen

Personally I wasn't fond of tiny tubes like the 12a*7 .... until I started using Elekit TU-8200 and also when I audition the Auris Nirvana.

12at7 gain is 60. 6SL7 is 70. 12au7 & 6sn7 & EL11 are 20. 12ax7 is 100. Odyssey will be very versatile with all these drivers... not to mention the countless power tubes usable.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Personally I wasn't fond of tiny tubes like the 12a*7 .... until I started using Elekit TU-8200 and also when I audition the Auris Nirvana.
> 
> 12at7 gain is 60. 6SL7 is 70. 12au7 & 6sn7 & EL11 are 20. 12ax7 is 100. Odyssey will be very versatile with all these drivers... not to mention the countless power tubes usable.


Nice to see the 6SL7 getting some love again.  I have a couple leftover from when I was an audiophile.    

And oh crap....what are those GE's doing in there?  They'll spoil the whole bunch.....


----------



## UntilThen

What are you? Some ebay seller? 

Now you wouldn't want to sell me those at $1 each would you? Oh well I'll pay $10 each. How's that for generosity?


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> What are you? Some ebay seller?


bcowe_high_tubes 😝…


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> What are you? Some ebay seller?
> 
> Now you wouldn't want to sell me those at $1 each would you? Oh well I'll pay $10 each. How's that for generosity?


That’s AUD…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> bcowe_high_tubes 😝…


I prefer BcowenBang.  More of a ring to it.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Personally I wasn't fond of tiny tubes like the 12a*7 .... until I started using Elekit TU-8200 and also when I audition the Auris Nirvana.
> 
> 12at7 gain is 60. 6SL7 is 70. 12au7 & 6sn7 & EL11 are 20. 12ax7 is 100. Odyssey will be very versatile with all these drivers... not to mention the countless power tubes usable.



One thing you need to watch out for with these high gain tubes is high-frequency rolloff.  Most high gain tubes have very high plate resistance, which forms a low-pass filter with the input capacitance of the output stage.  Depending on the plate resistance and the input capacitance, the HF rolloff can creep down into the audio band.  All design dependent of course, if using a hybrid mu-follower driver ( which has low output impedance) or the input tube is working into a buffer (which has low input capacitance), like in an OTL output, it isn't a problem.

It's for this particular reason the 300B is described as "hard-to-drive".  Not only does the input tube need to have sufficient gain to swing a lot of voltage to drive a 300B to clipping, but it's input capacitance is relatively high due to the Miller effect - thus, the driver stage needs to have a low output impedance as well to avoid the HF rolloff issue.  So, if you use an input tube with a gain of 100 in an amp it wasn't designed for and find the highs aren't quite so sparkly, that might be why.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Jun 13, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I prefer BcowenBang.  More of a ring to it.



You know, I bought some tubes from Bangy Bang recently, first time, but he had what I needed.  The end result as as you would expect - he did not combine shipping despite my pointing out that eBay wasn't doing it automatically, as he claimed.  One tube out of four was a dud, I contacted him about a return and never got a response, just went through eBay and returned both pairs, never again!

100% positive feedback though, of course.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> One thing you need to watch out for with these high gain tubes is high-frequency rolloff.  Most high gain tubes have very high plate resistance, which forms a low-pass filter with the input capacitance of the output stage.  Depending on the plate resistance and the input capacitance, the HF rolloff can creep down into the audio band.  All design dependent of course, if using a hybrid mu-follower driver ( which has low output impedance) or the input tube is working into a buffer (which has low input capacitance), like in an OTL output, it isn't a problem.
> 
> It's for this particular reason the 300B is described as "hard-to-drive".  Not only does the input tube need to have sufficient gain to swing a lot of voltage to drive a 300B to clipping, but it's input capacitance is relatively high due to the Miller effect - thus, the driver stage needs to have a low output impedance as well to avoid the HF rolloff issue.  So, if you use an input tube with a gain of 100 in an amp it wasn't designed for and find the highs aren't quite so sparkly, that might be why.


Good to know.  Thanks!  Never paid much attention to that, but now that you point it out a 12AT7 has more than twice the plate resistance of a 6SN7 (15,000 versus 6,700 at 90 - 100v on the plates).  I want to try the Brimar in an OTL (the Incubus), but don't have a clue how the circuit is set up.


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> You know, I bought some tubes from Bangy Bang recently, first time, but he had what I needed.  The end result as as you would expect - he did not combine shipping despite my pointing out that eBay wasn't doing it automatically, as he claimed.  One tube out of four was a dud, I contacted him about a return and never got a response, just went through eBay and returned both pairs, never again!
> 
> 100% positive feedback though, of course.


Bummer.  So are you going to give him his first negative feedback?


----------



## joseph69

UntilThen said:


> EXCEPT I have found what I am looking for ! In Odyssey .... with or without Sowter output transformers.


+1 on the badge placement!
Makes for a much cleaner looking faceplate.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> One thing you need to watch out for with these high gain tubes is high-frequency rolloff.  Most high gain tubes have very high plate resistance, which forms a low-pass filter with the input capacitance of the output stage.  Depending on the plate resistance and the input capacitance, the HF rolloff can creep down into the audio band.  All design dependent of course, if using a hybrid mu-follower driver ( which has low output impedance) or the input tube is working into a buffer (which has low input capacitance), like in an OTL output, it isn't a problem.
> 
> It's for this particular reason the 300B is described as "hard-to-drive".  Not only does the input tube need to have sufficient gain to swing a lot of voltage to drive a 300B to clipping, but it's input capacitance is relatively high due to the Miller effect - thus, the driver stage needs to have a low output impedance as well to avoid the HF rolloff issue.  So, if you use an input tube with a gain of 100 in an amp it wasn't designed for and find the highs aren't quite so sparkly, that might be why.



Thanks. It's fascinating to read technical stuff. I'm a software guy but I read tech stuff out of interest. Basically in the world of audio, I'm a consumer. I consume.  

I do know that Tomas build Odyssey around the driver choice of either EL11 or 6SL7. Both different gain and how he accomplish that with auto bias is something I wouldn't know. I will just wait to see and hear. The original design was to consider 6SL7 and 6SN7 in that same socket. For some strange reason I wanted the alternate driver to  be 6J5 / L63 but Tomas knew that I have some NOS EL11 and persuaded me to use it. That revive my Berlin love - to use the Telefunken combination of EL11 and EL12 spez. Of course now that I have EL39, I would want to pair that with EL11 also. Really curious how that will turn out. I had barely use my Tung Sol 6550 with Eric's amp when I had to return the amp. I remember being very impressed with the 1960s Tung Sol 6550. Then there's the Radiotron 807. An incredible sounding power tube imo. Not forgetting the tube that Odyssey is bias for, the KT88. Tomas told me recently that he will not run KT88 to optimum, so that the amp will be cooler and more importantly, will be able to roll in more power tubes. Which brings me to EL34. The tube in Auris Nirvana that wow me and started me on this path to get a custom amp. There's also KT66 and KT77 and 6L6GC. 

Odyssey will be special for me because the tube variations is a lot. I even have to scale it back to keep it simple stupid. I didn't want to spend all my time fiddling with tube changes and manually adjusting bias settings. I did that on McChanson's KT150 amp. Initially it was interesting because I have something to fiddle with but eventually the novelty wore off. All I wanted to do was listen to music and be impressed tonally at how the tube amp drives my headphones. I know that at the end of the day that's what I want to do. 

I mean look at my Wa22. I have all the good power tubes for it and some drivers. I hardly change tubes on it anymore. The other day I realised that after spending so much time with my LCD4 and Destiny (300b amp), I find my He1000se a bit bright. This is strange because I have not felt this way with He1000se before. Just goes to show that our brains and ears adapt to something after you live with it for a while. In this case, I live and love the LCD4 and 300b amp warm and cosy combination so much that when I return to He1000se, I find the latter too bright. That is when I know instinctively what tubes to use in the Wa22 to make it warmer. I chose Ken Rad 6sn7gt black glass, Bendix 6080wb and Cossor 53ku rectifier. See, knowing your tubes tone helps because you know what combination to use straight away. In time to come, I will know the tubes in Odyssey so well that it will be second nature just like it is with Wa22 now.

5:26am omg... I wrote that much ? Well in a few hours time I'll be journeying back to Canberra and will spend 5 weeks there. So much to do there to take my mind off head-fi but I know that I will think of Odyssey. I remember Family Man. I choose us.


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> +1 on the badge placement!
> Makes for a much cleaner looking faceplate.



That inspiration came from you. Tomas just mount it on top of the chassis and showed me if I like it there or in front. I said yeah that looks good....   

This might seem trivial but having a badge with a name of my choice.... that's what I call custom. I mean can you imagine having a badge that says BcowenBang ?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I prefer BcowenBang.  More of a ring to it the cash register.


----------



## bcowen

Cash?  Are you guys _still_ using that in Pennsylvania?  Wow.  We switched to BcowenCoin in NC a _long_ time ago.....


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> Good to know.  Thanks!  Never paid much attention to that, but now that you point it out a 12AT7 has more than twice the plate resistance of a 6SN7 (15,000 versus 6,700 at 90 - 100v on the plates).  I want to try the Brimar in an OTL (the Incubus), but don't have a clue how the circuit is set up.



15K isn't too bad, but something like the 12AX7 with its >60K plate resistance could be a problem depending on the output stage.  I think you will be fine with the Incubus, as the output stage likely has very low input capacitance - surely if it is a cathode follower of some kind.  Cathode followers, like in most headphone OTL amps, are used as buffer circuits due to their high input impedance and low input capacitance, you can run just about anything into them and get good bandwidth


----------



## UntilThen

I use AmpCoin.  So this is how I envisage head-fi's journey's end will be for me. The trio of amps to serve my needs are Oblivion, Destiny and Odyssey. In the order of their arrival. Oblivion is a tube hybrid design that is the brain child of Mr Cuwen and specialty of Tomas. Destiny is a triode 300b SET amp and is from McChanson amps and Eric is a veteran making tube amps all his life and he's in his 70s now. Odyssey is a KT88 SET amp and I've pick Tomas to build this because he has a wealth of experience modding the Little Dot Mk8 / 6. He was old school before he became new school.  

This was Tomas LD Mk6 with extreme modifications.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/little-dot-mk-vi-super-modified-we421a.885848/

This is Oblivion with my then LCD3f.



Destiny my 300b amp that is amazing with both speakers and my LCD4.


Odyssey. My pride and joy and I haven't heard it yet.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Thanks. It's fascinating to read technical stuff. I'm a software guy but I read tech stuff out of interest. Basically in the world of audio, I'm a consumer. I consume.



Of course, just something I wanted to point out for the sake of learning!  Triode-strapped pentodes typically have lower input capacitance than true triodes, like 300B, so most input tubes should work well, only those of the highest plate resistance _might_ cause an issue, like 12AX7.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> only those of the highest plate resistance _might_ cause an issue, like 12AX7.


I’m not sure I want to try the 12ax7. There was a very rare Brimar 12ax7 on sale in the local classifieds but I pass on it. Just not sure about using 12ax7 in Odyssey. After all there are plenty of driver choices already.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Cash?  Are you guys _still_ using that in Pennsylvania?  Wow.  We switched to BcowenCoin in NC a _long_ time ago.....


Just a moment…I thought that it was bitcowen that became standard fare for Bangybang…the tubes and the payment fizz out at a moment’s notice…


----------



## UntilThen

Bitcowen is patent now. Hey Bill sell me some of your 6SL7 collection.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm back to my main setup now. For some reason, I don't think I spend enough time with He1000se and Oblivion because what I'm hearing now is breathtakingly beautiful and the air and scale of the music enveloping my head is mesmerizing. 

I listen to 4 song on Tidal HiFi :-

Time to say goodbye - Sarah Brightman and Andrea Bocelli
Everything I do I do it for you - Katherine Jenkins
What a wonderful world - Willie Nelson
Wonderful world - Sam Cooke

and I'm spell bound. 

Oblivion deserve a spot on top of the rack. I'll have to rearrange that.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> That is when I know instinctively what tubes to use in the Wa22 to make it warmer. I chose Ken Rad 6sn7gt black glass, Bendix 6080wb....


I found the Bendix 6080WB to be rather bright on my Little Dot amp.


----------



## baronbeehive

L0rdGwyn said:


> One thing you need to watch out for with these high gain tubes is high-frequency rolloff.


I was wondering if that was the origin of Joes tube lore in which he claimed that 12AX7's were more fuzzy sounding than 5751 equivalents. I swallowed this for a while but since using my Philips 12AX7's I have not found this to be the case, and what's more the frequency band is very extended on both ends.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> You should probably get some of these for that adapter before they're all gone.  I haven't heard them yet myself, but have a couple on the way:
> 
> https://pulsetubestore.com/products...4-12at7-factory-tested-plug-play-ready-to-use
> 
> ...


That guy who described Brimars as insane.. I agree! I had some CV1988 and they were definately the most insane tubes I've tried, very holographic as he said.. but far too insane for me.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> So when there's universal OMG's happening with them it's a "where there's smoke there's fire" kind of thing.


An apt description of DarkVoice ownership…?


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I found the Bendix 6080WB to be rather bright on my Little Dot amp.



Very unusual description of Bendix 6080wb. Something else in your chain must be the cause of the rather brightness.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Very unusual description of Bendix 6080wb. Something else in your chain must be the cause of the rather brightness.


Yeah! Maybe not so much bright as very defined and airy, but warm.. well I don't know about that.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Very unusual description of Bendix 6080wb. Something else in your chain must be the cause of the rather brightness.


Agreed. I have heard the Bendix sound deep, sound full, sound weighty but never bright.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> That guy who described Brimars as insane.. I agree! I had some CV1988 and they were definately the most insane tubes I've tried, very holographic as he said.. but far too insane for me.



Ah CV1988.  They sound insanely beautifully. My friend was insane too when he adorned these tubes on his Wa5le and loan it to me for 2 weeks. That was the weeks when my GOTL arrived.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Maybe not so much bright as very defined and airy, but warm..





jonathan c said:


> Agreed. I have heard the Bendix sound deep, sound full, sound weighty but never bright.



Thank you gentlemen. Now I find my sanity returning.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Thank you gentlemen. Now I find my sanity returning.


You can always let your sanity go on holiday…your sanity needs a rest 🤪…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> You can always let your sanity go on holiday…your sanity needs a rest 🤪…



This hobby is insanely beautiful. One of life's joy and bliss is listening to music with a lovely sounding setup. My sanity can go on a holiday but the gear cannot go on a holiday.


----------



## UntilThen

Do this experiment for 2 weeks. Listen to a warm, cosy setup in that period then return to a bright setup. Your first reaction will be like Jack.


----------



## baronbeehive (Jun 14, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Do this experiment for 2 weeks. Listen to a warm, cosy setup in that period then return to a bright setup. Your first reaction will be like Jack.


... in one of his rare moments of sanity... well relatively speaking.

Edit: I think he must have been listening to the Brimars .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> ... in one of his rare moments of sanity... well relatively speaking.
> 
> Edit: I think he must have been listening to the Brimars .



I am tempted to counter with a video of Jack telling you this about the Brimars - 'You can't handle the truth'. 

But instead I'm listening to 'The Ultimate Demonstration Disc'  by Chesky which I have a CD, one of the audiophile CDs I bought from the days of guess what - car audio competition.  I miss the Dynaudio Esotec 242gt splits, Morel Ultimo sub, Audison BitTen and Hertz HDP 1 & 4 amps in the Honda Accord Euro.

This disc is to test your system for transparency, depth, midrange purity and all the other mumbo jumbo.

I'm testing out my system now of Destiny with LCD4 and Oblivion with He1000se with Roon / Tidal HiFi and Yggdrasil assisting. 

But I'm missing my car sound system. It's a stealth install with concealed false flooring. In the boot, only the sub is shown with custom enclosure. Dynaudio splits in the front splits location and doors dynamat a ton. Sold the car, got a new car and the gear still stored away in boxes. I need to get it installed professionally again. See the fire extinguisher? That's a prerequisite for car audio comp.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Bitcowen is patent now. Hey Bill sell me some of your 6SL7 collection.


_Sell_ my tubes?  Interesting concept, but I'll have to study up on it some and get back to you.


----------



## bcowen (Jun 14, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> An apt description of DarkVoice ownership…?


But that's missing the point of having a DV.  The stock DV has a lot of flaws but still makes music for $200.  Personally, I'd rather just quit audio than listen to a $200 solid state amp.   The fun with the DV is adding a couple hundred $ in parts and making it a decent sounding amp for $400. A tinker toy, as it were. Looking at some of the gems displayed in this thread, I'd never go near one of them with a soldering iron...too costly to make a mistake, and almost sacrilege to the art and an insult to the designer's intentions. Hacking up a DV doesn't fall into either camp...worst case you're out a couple hundred bucks, and the design can so easily be improved it's almost an insult NOT to modify it.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Now I find my sanity returning.


It's just your imagination.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> _Sell_ my tubes?  Interesting concept, but I'll have to study up on it some and get back to you.



Why do you want so many 6SL7 for? Here I will have Odyssey soon with pistons ready to fire. Just pass over one of each brand of 6SL7 and I'll do an unbiased review of those tubes. Having said that I'm a little biased toward Tung Sol before they were sold to Sencore.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Why do you want so many 6SL7 for?


That's like asking an alcoholic why they want one more drink.


----------



## UntilThen

Well Bcowen, I'll follow your addiction. 6SL7 are cheap and plentiful on superbay. Just my luck. Must thank Tomas for selecting this driver.


----------



## UntilThen

Bcowen what do you hear different between a 6sn7 and a 6sl7 aside from the gain? I'm asking you because I have a hunch you know tubes.


----------



## bcowen (Jun 14, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Bcowen what do you hear different between a 6sn7 and a 6sl7 aside from the gain? I'm asking you because I have a hunch you know tubes.


Hard to say really. They were used in different amps that couldn't swap between the two.  Was I hearing the tube or the amp? 

But given what I heard from various 6SL7's in the same amp, I too like the Tung Sols. The Sylvania 5691 (likely made by RCA) is very good as are the gray glass RCA's.  The National Unions are good but not great, the RCA clear glass is pretty meh, I didn't much care for the Tungsrams (somewhat strident and bereft harmonically), and it could well be the 6SL7 that started my loathing of GE's.  Yup, that bad.   I never played around much with the European equivalents, so that's mostly unchartered territory for me. And these were used in a couple speaker amps and a phono stage, so mileage may vary in a headphone amp.

Funny thing (or maybe unfunny thing?) is that 20+ years ago when I bought most of these the 6SL7 was in abundant use and prices were tit-for-tat with 6SN7's.  I probably paid more (even then) than you can buy them for now as they've fallen out of mainstream favor it seems.  Good for you though, as you can get some very nice sounding tubes for way less money.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> But that's missing the point of having a DV.  The stock DV has a lot of flaws but still makes music for $200.  Personally, I'd rather just quit audio than listen to a $200 sold state amp.   The fun with the DV is adding a couple hundred $ in parts and making it a decent sounding amp for $400. A tinker toy, as it were. Looking at some of the gems displayed in this thread, I'd never go near one of them with a soldering iron...too costly to make a mistake, and almost sacrilege to the art and an insult to the designer's intentions. Hacking up a DV doesn't fall into either camp...worst case you're out a couple hundred bucks, and the design can so easily be improved it's almost an insult NOT to modify it.


…an audio rite of passage…😄…


----------



## UntilThen

Thank you. That's good info. Time will tell whether I prefer 6sn7 or 6sl7 in Odyssey.

Btw the Darkvoice 336se was my 2nd amp after the JDS Lab O2/ODAC.  Sadly it's the start of my frenzy with tube amps and tubes. I remember happily chatting in the DV336se tube rolling thread and then one day someone pop in and commented, 'the Darkvoice 336se is culprit that got me so deeply into tube amp. It led me all the way to the Eddie Current 445'.

This was my DV336se. It was 2nd hand and only cost me $260. It was my first attempt at capturing tube glow and it turn out pretty well. Don't you agree? And that is a Tung Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright time to rearrange my cave.


----------



## UntilThen

And the cave is nearly done.   Just need a modesty shield to hide the cables under the table and a vintage rubbish bin.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Hard to say really. They were used in different amps that couldn't swap between the two.  Was I hearing the tube or the amp?
> 
> But given what I heard from various 6SL7's in the same amp, I too like the Tung Sols. The Sylvania 5691 (likely made by RCA) is very good as are the gray glass RCA's.  The National Unions are good but not great, the RCA clear glass is pretty meh, I didn't much care for the Tungsrams (somewhat strident and bereft harmonically), and it could well be the 6SL7 that started my loathing of GE's.  Yup, that bad.   I never played around much with the European equivalents, so that's mostly unchartered territory for me. And these were used in a couple speaker amps and a phono stage, so mileage may vary in a headphone amp.
> 
> Funny thing (or maybe unfunny thing?) is that 20+ years ago when I bought most of these the 6SL7 was in abundant use and prices were tit-for-tat with 6SN7's.  I probably paid more (even then) than you can buy them for now as they've fallen out of mainstream favor it seems.  Good for you though, as you can get some very nice sounding tubes for way less money.


Tungsols , RCA Gray Glass , "loathing of GE's" sacrilege lol! You're right though, I liked the clarity, but very flat and one dimensional. Was going to try the cryo versions but never got round to it.


----------



## baronbeehive

xxx


UntilThen said:


> I am tempted to counter with a video of Jack telling you this about the Brimars - 'You can't handle the truth'.


Was going to post the frozen Jack Nicholson of The Shining fame, but it was too shocking 




UntilThen said:


> But instead I'm listening to 'The Ultimate Demonstration Disc'  by Chesky which I have a CD, one of the audiophile CDs I bought from the days of guess what - car audio competition.  I miss the Dynaudio Esotec 242gt splits, Morel Ultimo sub, Audison BitTen and Hertz HDP 1 & 4 amps in the Honda Accord Euro.
> 
> This disc is to test your system for transparency, depth, midrange purity and all the other mumbo jumbo.


I actually listened to this again quite recently, all the way through. I can still remember that guy from the US's voice droning away!!


UntilThen said:


> See the fire extinguisher? That's a prerequisite for car audio comp.


... and the ear plugs !


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> And the cave is nearly done.   Just need a modesty shield to hide the cables under the table and a vintage rubbish bin.


Looks great Matt!

I need to clean up some cables, I never seem to get to it


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Looks great Matt!
> 
> I need to clean up some cables, I never seem to get to it



Thanks Joe. Now I've more room to breath and can sit back 2.5 metres to listen to speakers.   The Boston Acoustics VR-2 will do for now until I can afford a pair of Zu Omen Dirty Weekends.  The VR-2 are actually perfect for tube amps being 93 dB efficiency and 8 ohms. Requires only 15 watts of amp power. It's got more bass than the Axis Voicebox S monitor on the desk but I love switching speakers... 

Just heard from Tomas that my Sowter output tranformers will be shipping on the 1st week of July. Earliest Tomas will get it is on the 2nd week of July, probably later. So I envisage I'll get Odyssey sometime in August. 

Some important things happened in August...


1 *August* 1774: Joseph Priestley discovers oxygen. ...
31 *August* 1897: Thomas Edison secures a patent for his kinetograph. ...
20 *August* 1911: The first telegram is sent around the world in just 16.5 minutes. ...
21 *August* 1911: The Mona Lisa is stolen in France. ...
27 *August* 1955: The Guinness Book of World Records is published.
**  *August* 2021: Odyssey came home.


----------



## smodtactical

UntilThen said:


> Ah CV1988.  They sound insanely beautifully. My friend was insane too when he adorned these tubes on his Wa5le and loan it to me for 2 weeks. That was the weeks when my GOTL arrived.



How did your Oblivion compare to that woo amp?


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 26, 2021)

smodtactical said:


> How did your Oblivion compare to that woo amp?



At a pub now. I’ll tell you in the morning when my head’s clear. That is if @bcowen remembers to drive me home.

sic cheers.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Tungsols , RCA Gray Glass , "loathing of GE's" sacrilege lol! You're right though, I liked the clarity, but very flat and one dimensional. Was going to try the cryo versions but never got round to it.


I sent a bunch of tubes out for cryo treatment a couple years ago...all 6SN7 (or variants) including Fotons, Melz, Ken-Rads, RCA's, National Unions and CBS/Hytron 5692's. In each case I had a pairing tube with an identical (or nearly identical) GM measurement that I _didn't_ send so that I'd be able to compare the two, and gave all the tubes involved 25 hours of break-in time. Had great expectation bias when the cryo'd tubes came back, but even after trying as hard as I could I couldn't hear any difference. Even sent one of the pairs to a friend. I made a small mark on the cryo'd tube so I'd know which was which, but didn't tell him which was which or identify the tube(s) otherwise. He couldn't hear any difference either and thought I was just pranking him.   I'm not suggesting that my experience invalidates any benefit or sonic difference in cryo treating a tube, only saying that *I* couldn't hear any difference.  I don't hear my wife half the time either, so there's that.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> At a pub now. I’ll tell you in the morning when my head’s clear. That is if @bcowen remembers to drive me home.
> 
> sic cheers.


I'll be right there.  I've had 10 beers, but my driving isn't affected (much) until 20.  Buckle up.


----------



## OctavianH (Jun 26, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I'll be right there.  I've had 10 beers, but my driving isn't affected (much) until 20.  Buckle up.


Did anyone say something about beer? I'm at the pub right now.


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> Did anyone say something about beer? I'm at the pub right now.


At 9:00 AM?  Dang.  I thought @UntilThen was bad...


----------



## OctavianH (Jun 26, 2021)

bcowen said:


> At 9:00 AM?  Dang.  I thought @UntilThen was bad...


Here it is 16. Moved from the pub to the beer garden. I live a healthy life, always prefer nature instead of houses.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> I sent a bunch of tubes out for cryo treatment a couple years ago...all 6SN7 (or variants) including Fotons, Melz, Ken-Rads, RCA's, National Unions and CBS/Hytron 5692's. In each case I had a pairing tube with an identical (or nearly identical) GM measurement that I _didn't_ send so that I'd be able to compare the two, and gave all the tubes involved 25 hours of break-in time. Had great expectation bias when the cryo'd tubes came back, but even after trying as hard as I could I couldn't hear any difference. Even sent one of the pairs to a friend. I made a small mark on the cryo'd tube so I'd know which was which, but didn't tell him which was which or identify the tube(s) otherwise. He couldn't hear any difference either and thought I was just pranking him.   I'm not suggesting that my experience invalidates any benefit or sonic difference in cryo treating a tube, only saying that *I* couldn't hear any difference.  I don't hear my wife half the time either, so there's that.


Interesting information.. and that includes the "blind" test you gave to your friend. Very scientific, we want more of that on these threads! So all that about the change of microscopic structure and so on.. well I won't go on.


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> Here it is 16. Moved from the pub to the beer garden. I live a healthy life, always prefer nature instead of houses.


Yes and the beer tastes so much better in the right surroundings .


----------



## OctavianH

baronbeehive said:


> Yes and the beer tastes so much better in the right surroundings .


At 30C+ beer becomes a necessity from a desire.


----------



## smodtactical

Which model should I get for HD800S and ZMF Atticus ?


----------



## UntilThen

smodtactical said:


> How did your Oblivion compare to that woo amp?



That Woo Wa5le amp was shored up with the best tubes. Mullard CV1988 but we know Mullard didn't make those. They are most likely Brimars. Power tubes are Takatsuki 300b and rectifiers are EML 274b. I remembered that Woo amp as what I would love about a 300b amp... with those tubes. It was great. Mid centric, tubey as could be and a low end simmer to die for.

However I wish I could borrow that Woo amp again to compare with my Destiny now. Destiny is a 300b amp made by Eric of McChanson's amp. I am only using Genalex Gold Lion 300b tubes, drivers are GE 6EM7 and rectifier is a Sittard GZ34 Made in Holland. I have love Destiny for 3 months now. A love affair that is getting indecent. I spend so much time with LCD4 and Destiny in the last 3 months that I have almost forgotten about Oblivion.

So about 3 weeks ago I resurrected Oblivion again and started listening with my He1000se. This is when I sit up and wondered what I have been missing. My head's cleared now from last night lovely dinner and couple of craft beers. Sitting here for the last hour listening to music with these 2 combinations:-

Yggdrasil feeding :-

1. Oblivion > He1000se (Yang)
2. Destiny > LCD4 (Yin)

It's Yin and Yang. Yin is the black side and Yang is the white side. The relationship between Yin and Yang is often described as sunlight playing over a mountain and a valley. Listening to the same song with Yin and Yang and the contrast couldn't be greater but I'm transfixed by the tone of each. Amazingly beautiful texture. Yin is dark, warm and enveloping. The song 'I'll play the blues for you' by Daniel Castro seem tailor made for it. Yang on the other hand, is fresh, airy, details galore and an amazingly wide soundstage. After one and a half years with Oblivion, I still marveled at the instruments separation. Tube tone in Oblivion is just right and bass is present without being overpowering. With He1000se, I couldn't stop the listening session. I'm engrossed.

I love my setup now with my Yin and Yang. I wouldn't want to change anything but change is coming. Odyssey will be coming home and I've never waited for an amp with greater anticipation than this custom KT88 / EL34 tube amp (Odyssey) from Ultrasonic Studio.

There's the Yin and Yang in the rack.

I was about to press send to post this then I saw your question about which model to get for HD800S and Atticus. I've own Atticus before and I have the HD800 and have also heard the HD800S. Oblivion would be perfect for these headphones. That said, I've not heard the fully balanced Citadel but there has been some reviews of the Citadel in this thread that is very positive.


----------



## smodtactical

UntilThen said:


> That Woo Wa5le amp was shored up with the best tubes. Mullard CV1988 but we know Mullard didn't make those. They are most likely Brimars. Power tubes are Takatsuki 300b and rectifiers are EML 274b. I remembered that Woo amp as what I would love about a 300b amp... with those tubes. It was great. Mid centric, tubey as could be and a low end simmer to die for.
> 
> However I wish I could borrow that Woo amp again to compare with my Destiny now. Destiny is a 300b amp made by Eric of McChanson's amp. I am only using Genalex Gold Lion 300b tubes, drivers are GE 6EM7 and rectifier is a Sittard GZ34 Made in Holland. I have love Destiny for 3 months now. A love affair that is getting indecent. I spend so much time with LCD4 and Destiny in the last 3 months that I have almost forgotten about Oblivion.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much. How do these compare to the Woo audio WA5 that you had/have ?


----------



## UntilThen

smodtactical said:


> Thanks so much. How do these compare to the Woo audio WA5 that you had/have ?



As far as I remember, Wa5 soundstage isn't as wide as Destiny and Oblivion's soundstage is the widest. Wa5le wasn't mine. It was loan to me by a friend and what a friend he is. He was willing to let me have it with the Takatsuki 300b tubes. 

To put things in perspective, I was comparing my newly arrived Glenn OTL amp with the Wa5le. That was in 2018... If I revisit Glenn's thread, I will remember that I prefer Glenn OTL amp slightly more than the Wa5le because of the GOTL snappier transients and dynamics. Where Wa5le shine was in the mids and even then I think Destiny's tuning is much better than Wa5le. Shocking isn't it because Destiny had only lower end 300b tubes.

When I received Oblivion, I had Studio Six and GOTL. Of the 3, I preferred Oblivion over the other 2. GOTL and Studio Six were eventually sold off but I still have Oblivion.

With Oblivion, you will hear minute details that he would miss with the Wa5le. Oblivion is about dynamics, faster transients and a much more spaced out soundscape. With a headphone that is already wide, such as the HD800 and He1000se, the effect is quite amazing. I love it. Wa5le is warmer, more tubey and more relaxing. It's a totally different sound signature.

A 300b amp and Oblivion would be perfect compliment.

This picture of GOTL, Yggdrasil and Wa5le was taken in 10th Feb 2018. That was 2 weeks of bliss. They were both great sounding amps but despite that, I find Oblivion and Destiny better. 



This picture, Atticus is slightly in the view. It's in Pardauk wood. I even have the Eikon in Cherry wood. Then later I had Verite LTD in Pheasant wood. Someday I might get another ZMF headphone again.


----------



## UntilThen

Over the years, amps have come and gone. I've had many tube amps and solid states. I did miss out on DNA Stratus and an Eddie Current. Even had the Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP. I suppose I can't chase every amps under the sun. I'm happy with my audio journey. It's been varied enough. I have sampled enough. I'm not tied to any brand or beholden to any manufacturer. 

My Elekit TU-8200 is being repaired now. Odyssey is only waiting on the Sowter output transformers. Odyssey, Destiny and Oblivion will be on the 2 racks. That should be sufficient for my needs here. Each of them are different enough to be complimentary. 

I may get a good solid state very much later.. not sure if I need it but just a thought. Here in this picture I had my Ragnarok. On hind sight maybe I should have kept it. I bought it together with Yggdrasil back in 2017 and I'm no Schiit fan boy.


----------



## UntilThen

A long time ago... back in 2017.... this was my end game. Yggdrasil > Feliks Audio Euforia > HD800. It was my pride and joy then.  Those are good tubes too on Euforia. Sylvania 6sn7w and Bendix 6080wb.

Euforia has long been gone but the other 2 items remained.


----------



## UntilThen

Fast forward to today... I only care for one dac, 2 amps and 2 headphones. It is cringe worthy. My only problem is deciding which combination to use. Oblivion > He1000se or Destiny > LCD4. It's basic instinct. The sonic attraction is raw and real. Looking back, the above setup won't move me like these do.

Now the challenge for Odyssey. Will it be a step up?    Time will tell.


----------



## hpamdr

Just got a new HD Album ! 
Eternity (Using EL39 and NR73) and Soerkris DAC makes Willy Nelson and all the girls sing and whisper like if they were just near me.


----------



## UntilThen

Holy bill cowen, where have you been hpamdr. I'm counting sheep everyday waiting for Sowter to deliver the transformers.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> Eternity (Using EL39 and NR73)



NR73 is essentially Mullard ECC31. It should be a great pairing with EL39, which I have and have not even use it yet.

and this is very strange. I thought I'm the only one listening to Willie Nelson. You wouldn't be listening to Leonard Cohen too, would you?

However I'm listening to Roger Waters In The Flesh - Live on Tidal now.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Holy bill cowen, where have you been hpamdr. I'm counting sheep everyday waiting for Sowter to deliver the transformers.



In Australlia and specially in winter it is easy to count sheep in stable 

I was just working far from home and amp/headphone. So nothing relevant to say !

// Side to this you should know that copper, nickel, stainless steel (sub product is even worse) are not that easy to get for a good price and all buyers fight to get a good ratio price/time for delivery. During Covid a lot have been shutdown or reduced as minimal and now demamd start again with bottle neck on all ressources. So be patient for Sowter.


----------



## baronbeehive

hpamdr said:


> // Side to this you should know that copper, nickel, stainless steel (sub product is even worse) are not that easy to get for a good price and all buyers fight to get a good ratio price/time for delivery. During Covid a lot have been shutdown or reduced as minimal and now demamd start again with bottle neck on all ressources. So be patient for Sowter.


Yeah, I'm waiting on some work on the house because of this general short supply of materials due to covid, also due to Brexit involving the UK leaving the EU!


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> and this is very strange. I thought I'm the only one listening to Willie Nelson. You wouldn't be listening to Leonard Cohen too, would you?
> 
> However I'm listening to Roger Waters In The Flesh - Live on Tidal now.


Do you want it darker  
You should also like Paolo Conte !
About Roger Water, i have recently bought Us + Them Album wich i like a lot even if i would have prefered voices to be more "frontend".    

I like a lot album where music serve the voices without autotune nor echoes.


----------



## baronbeehive (Jul 2, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> Just got a new HD Album !
> Eternity (Using EL39 and NR73) and Soerkris DAC makes Willy Nelson and all the girls sing and whisper like if they were just near me.


He was very close to me, in 2000 if I remember, I was right by the stage for his performance at Glastonbury festival!

Edit: And Pink Floyd is a favourite of mine. Haven't heard much Roger Waters though.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> About Roger Water, i have recently bought Us + Them Album



Thank you. I listen to it on Tidal and I'm hooked. Listen using LCD4 and Destiny. I'm going to buy this on vinyl and listen to it when Odyssey comes. With LCD4 of course.

Roger did something amazing with this album and I'm only into the 4th track.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Thank you. I listen to it on Tidal and I'm hooked. Listen using LCD4 and Destiny. I'm going to buy this on vinyl and listen to it when Odyssey comes. With LCD4 of course.
> 
> Roger did something amazing with this album and I'm only into the 4th track.


If you like the tracks you can get the movie too !

The recording quality is fantastic for Live songs this was probably post processed in studio for the best !

What is great with this album (like most of the pink Floyd album) is the construction. All tracks are good by themselves but when you listen one track after the other you catch the album spirit..


----------



## baronbeehive

hpamdr said:


> If you like the tracks you can get the movie too !
> 
> The recording quality is fantastic for Live songs this was probably post processed in studio for the best !
> 
> What is great with this album (like most of the pink Floyd album) is the construction. All tracks are good by themselves but when you listen one track after the other you catch the album spirit..


I definitely think, from what I can remember, the recording quality of the live Floyd albums was better than the studio. Pulse, for example, also Live in Gdansk I think was good, certainly it was a terrific album. I will check out the Roger Waters.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I definitely think, from what I can remember, the recording quality of the live Floyd albums was better than the studio. Pulse, for example, also Live in Gdansk I think was good, certainly it was a terrific album. I will check out the Roger Waters.



Mr Baronbeehive, at 6:12am on a Sat morning, Roger Waters came alive with this rendition of Mother ! It's Youtube but 33 million viewer agrees. This is Roger at his peak. 

Mother do you think they will drop the bomb? It's a very real question now. 

I sat and listen to this video with both of my favorite setup. Destiny's child or Tom Cruise Oblivion. I swap both LCD4 and He1000se on both amps and my best listening experience was with...

Oblivion > He1000se. 

This setup has always pleased me with the details, details and details plus a very wide soundstage or headstage however you want to call it. It's some kind of stage ! However this morning, the bass on this setup woke me up ! It's bass done right on Oblivion > He1000se..... and Roger and David's voice. It's gold !

Did you notice a very young David Gilmore in there? ... and one of the comment in there makes me laugh and cry. 'I grew up with Pink Floyd. I don't have a mama anymore. This song means a lot to me'.


----------



## UntilThen

An hour later and I'm still listening to music. Music that moves the soul. Then a realization.... I love how LCD4 sounded with Destiny. Love it a lot indeed. With Yggdrasil, this is easily my end game, never need to spend anymore setup.... 

Then I strapped on He1000se in combination with Yggdrasil and Oblivion. Unbelievably this is better. Oblivion is not going anywhere. It's staying put and this morning I'll rearrange the shelf to put Oblivion on the top shelf where it belong.

So see you in a bit while I move the gear around.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> this morning, the bass on this setup woke me up !



Ha... think I will use this instead of an alarm call too!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> An hour later and I'm still listening to music. Music that moves the soul. Then a realization.... I love how LCD4 sounded with Destiny. Love it a lot indeed. With Yggdrasil, this is easily my end game, never need to spend anymore setup....
> 
> Then I strapped on He1000se in combination with Yggdrasil and Oblivion. Unbelievably this is better. Oblivion is not going anywhere. It's staying put and this morning I'll rearrange the shelf to put Oblivion on the top shelf where it belong.
> 
> So see you in a bit while I move the gear around.


Don't take too long... .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Don't take too long... .



Good things takes time. In the midst of a massive shift around on the 2 racks.


----------



## UntilThen

Done and now it sound better


----------



## UntilThen

Got a new hobby now. Collecting framed scenery for under the desk. This is Monument Valley, Arizona - Utah. I hope to visit someday.



This internet picture is nicer.


----------



## UntilThen

This is the layout now. When Odyssey arrives, I have to rearrange again.


----------



## UntilThen

Half the weekend's gone and I had so much fun listening to old time hits. There was a time I would be focus on my headphones but now it's only the amps I see. I could not go back to solid states now. I could not even go back to just one tube amp. These 2 are so different and yet so appealing in their own way. The fact that they have the looks to match is a bonus. It's been a long time since I've been content with the amps that I have. Most don't last beyond 2 years but these will stay. 

Except they will be join by Odyssey. That will be my trio of amps. One black, one gold and one silver.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh wow Kenny retired and Dolly sang an emotionally charged song to him. Music is more than just sweet notes. It comes from the heart and it was heart warming to see them perform one last time.


----------



## OctavianH

Ah, Dolly Parton, nice. Best cover:


----------



## UntilThen

There was a time I wanted He1000se and LCD4 so much. Well now I have them and I also have 2 tube amps but I'm waiting for Odyssey. Shouldn't be too long before the transformers are delivered. I want to hear the old fashioned sound of EL34 and KT88 and all the other tubes. I want this amp to sound good with Susvara because that's the eventual plan.


----------



## hpamdr

Today i try to find a good combination with fostex TH-500rp ! Until now this was one headphone working great with my SS amplifier but not as good match with Euforia. 
This is not a very acclaimed headphone, but after some ugly mod to close/damp it more i was enjoying it with Cayin IHA6.
6J7mg + EL34/EL39/KT77 seems to be a good catch with Eternity. Current observation is that my special Eternity match easier with 50 to 300 Ohms  Headphone than 600 once !
For the one who like voice (kitch and French) i listen curently Louis Capart & Duo Balance ! (Quite far from OctavianH playlist  )


----------



## OctavianH (Jul 6, 2021)

Judging by the fact that the T1.2 with 600 Ohms impedance are an exception on the headphone market, I do not find it a big problem for Eternity. I found my peace with T1.2 on High Z setting with EL34/6J5 (the more neutral pairs).

Later edit: T1.2 is already discontinued, the new model has 32 Ohms.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> 6J7mg + EL34/EL39/KT77 seems to be a good catch with Eternity.



How would you describe Eternity sound signature with those tubes? I guess the sound is also influence by the headphone and the rest of the chain.

I'm looking for keywords like neutral or warm. Wide soundstage or close in. Dry or wet or in between. Anything to paint a sonic picture.

How would you compare Eternity with Euforia. Sound wise that is.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> How would you describe Eternity sound signature with those tubes? I guess the sound is also influence by the headphone and the rest of the chain.
> 
> I'm looking for keywords like neutral or warm. Wide soundstage or close in. Dry or wet or in between. Anything to paint a sonic picture.
> 
> How would you compare Eternity with Euforia. Sound wise that is.


Comparing Eternity with EuForia :
Headphone seems to be more revealed with Eternity than Euforia. T1 was really good with almost all Euforia tube cpmbination but this is not the case with Euforia where it pairs better with ECC31, 6J5, 6C5 (did not tested yet with EL11 nor EL3N) you really need at 4ma 180V -  mu > 20 and grid <5V

Eterinity is:
more quiet : much less tube noise
Larger spectrum :  Bass goes deeper and are more controled, high seems faster specially with KT88 and GU50
more neutral and globally not as warm. To get more tubey sound, you can choose KT66, EL34, KT77
with EL39, sound meet a good mix with a bit tubey very natural and instrument separation and timbre almost perfect. Live Jazz recording good with Euforia now reach next level of clarity and dynamics. GU50 is my rockstar for punch and dynamic sound more neutral than EL39 and even more precise when you want wider sounstage.   

About Soundstage, this is really not what i'm focussed on. This is depending a lot of the used headphone HD800s and Heedphone are good for this game.  It seems that tube with higer mu like SL7, SC7, 6BQ7A ... as driver gives a bit more harmonics and emphasis the soundstage.

 I still need to enrich my experiences for drivers, and add some output tube test.


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> Comparing Eternity with EuForia :
> Headphone seems to be more revealed with Eternity than Euforia. T1 was really good with almost all Euforia tube cpmbination but this is not the case with *Euforia* where it pairs better with ECC31, 6J5, 6C5 (did not tested yet with EL11 nor EL3N) you really need at 4ma 180V -  mu > 20 and grid <5V
> 
> Eterinity is:
> ...



Thanks for the feedback. I think you meant Eternity where I highlight in bold above.

So the gist of it is that Eternity is more neutral whereas Euforia is warmer. This is no surprise because I find Euforia warmer and wetter and certainly more tubey in the time I have it. Eternity is more dynamic compared to Euforia because you mention bass goes deeper and highs are faster. 

Eternity more quiet. Now that is a very good trait. Oblivion is very quiet too. I like this aspect of Ultrasonic Studio amp.

I know certain headphones has greater impact on soundstage but with certain amps, soundstage are noticeably wider with any headphones used. Oblivion has a wide soundstage and when paired with He1000se (which is already wide), it's a soundstage I love and I can hear instruments separation very clearly. Little details in the song stands out.

Lastly would you agree that Eternity has a 'bigger sound' than Euforia? If you've experience with several tube amps of different tube types, you will know what I mean.


----------



## hpamdr (Jul 7, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I think you meant Eternity where I highlight in bold above.
> 
> So the gist of it is that Eternity is more neutral whereas Euforia is warmer. This is no surprise because I find Euforia warmer and wetter and certainly more tubey in the time I have it. Eternity is more dynamic compared to Euforia because you mention bass goes deeper and highs are faster.
> 
> ...


UT, "bigger sound" is a term i find too subjective but if you mean larger spectrum with more dynamic and soundstage this is a YES !

I still use Euforia and i still like the warm sound with T1 and HD650. Even if it is not the best amplifier it is a good one and quite versatile.

Eternity is in many aspect a better amplifier except when you want to change tube set !  Eternity is also a much better match with planar headphone _(I only own TH-500rp and Heedphone in planar range) _


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> UT, "bigger sound" is a term i find too subjective but if you mean larger spectrum with more dynamic and soundstage this is a YES !
> 
> I still use Euforia and i still like the warm sound with T1 and HD650. Even if it is not the best amplifier it is a good one and quite versatile.
> 
> Eternity is in many aspect a better amplifier except when you want to change tube set !  Eternity is also a much better match with planar headphone _(I only own TH-500rp and Heedphone in planar range) _



Yeah kind of what I meant in bigger sound. Each musical note has a larger dimension. It's like watching a movie in a standard cinema screen compared to a VMAX screen.

I won't deny that Euforia is still enjoyable. I still find my Woo Audio Wa22 enjoyable but if I have all of of my tube amps in my 2 racks, I know which I will use more. Oblivion and Destiny for sure. So much so I left Wa22 back in Sydney, together with all the good tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Current temp is 4 degrees centigrade. This morning was minus 4.5. I am sitting here putting the He1000se through it's pace driven by Oblivion and Destiny. There is nothing I would rather do than what I'm doing now. Tube tone the way I like it. When you hear a good tube tone, you're hooked and I'm hooked alright. Both amps do a sterling job driving the He1000se and I don't mean Raheem Sterling. Although it could be him, Kane and the whole England team that is going into the soccer final with Italy. Now that would be electrifying. Pretty much like I'm electrified by the sonics that hits my ears and brain. Count me satisfied - very very satisfied !

In the midst of such contemplation, I received a message from Tomas. Morse code says 'expected delivery date from DHL of July 15'. In that moment, all thoughts of Oblivion and Destiny went out the window. All I can see now is Odyssey.   

Now you've to agree that Oblivion and He1000se looks sterling.



and Destiny and He1000se looks pretty much kane.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Kane and the whole England team that is going into the soccer final with Italy. Now that would be electrifying. Pretty much like I'm electrified by the sonics that hits my ears and brain. Count me satisfied - very very satisfied !


The game against Denmark was the best  yet in a superlative competition, can't wait for sunday and the final. I mustn't make rash predictions .... .



UntilThen said:


> In the midst of such contemplation, I received a message from Tomas. Morse code says 'expected delivery date from DHL of July 15'. In that moment, all thoughts of Oblivion and Destiny went out the window. All I can see now is Odyssey.
> 
> Now you've to agree that Oblivion and He1000se looks sterling.
> 
> ...


They both look super cool! July 15.. must make a note in my diary, drinks all round, virtually speaking lol.
🥴👍


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> They both look super cool! July 15.. must make a note in my diary, drinks all round, virtually speaking lol.
> 🥴👍



July 15th is when the Sowter output transformers will be delivered to Tomas. Not the date that Odyssey is coming to Sydney. 

What's funny is that Tomas wrote, 'I just got an estimated delete very date from DHL! July 15!. I sat there several minutes wondering that means. Then I realized that delete very date means delivery date.


----------



## UntilThen

Now it's time to put LCD4 through it's pace with Oblivion and Destiny. Tonally it's more dense and weightier than He1000se but the details from LCD4 is still so revealing. It's very unusual for me to love 2 headphones equally. It's even more unusual for me to love 2 amps equally. Oblivion is not a new toy for me anymore but each time I sit down with a headphone plug into it, I find myself loving every minute of it ! 

It's like Smokie having a crush on Alice for 24 years living next door to her..... and suddenly she's leaving and he doesn't know why. Then Sally tells him it's alright because she's still there !



Now to show you pictures of Sally and Alice. Don't ask me which is Alice and which is Sally because I just don't want to know.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 9, 2021)

I've been driving my speakers with my 300b amp all this while but now I switch to Oblivion. I'm so surprised at how well Oblivion drives the 93 dB Boston Acoustics VR-2. Volume is only at 11 o'clock for a comfortably loud listening. Tone is clear and has meat to the bones. It's a very good tube tone.

When Odyssey comes, I'll have 3 tube amps that can drive speakers as well as headphones.


----------



## baronbeehive (Jul 9, 2021)

hpamdr said:


> If you like the tracks you can get the movie too !
> 
> The recording quality is fantastic for Live songs this was probably post processed in studio for the best !
> 
> What is great with this album (like most of the pink Floyd album) is the construction. All tracks are good by themselves but when you listen one track after the other you catch the album spirit..


Just caught up with the 2020 album, fantastic. I love the 2 backing singers on The Great Gig In The Sky in the live concert!

And it was interesting to see how young the audience was lol!

... and I loved the kids in The Wall!!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Just caught up with the 2020 album, fantastic. I love the 2 backing singers on The Great Gig In The Sky in the live concert!
> 
> And it was interesting to see how young the audience was lol!
> 
> ... and I loved the kids in The Wall!!



I'm trying out Apple Music despite having Tidal HiFi. Listening to your selections on Apple Music.


----------



## UntilThen

Different versions of a song.


----------



## hpamdr

You just forgot the High Res sampler !




and what you can listen


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Different versions of a song.


Love it lol!

You should check out the live Roger Waters concert 2020 video, it's a lot of fun!


----------



## bcowen

hpamdr said:


> You just forgot the High Res sampler !
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL!  Yeah.  And where's the reel-to-reel?  I won't say 'tape' because that would include cassette which is already shown under Cover Version.


----------



## UntilThen

Ash Barty !


----------



## UntilThen

Chilling on a Sunday evening before Wimbledon Men's final. Loving what I'm hearing from Hekse and LCD4 from Oblivion. This amp stops me from lusting after solid state amps. Clarity, details, tube tone and lovely wide soundstage. It's all there. Really waiting to find out how different Odyssey is from Oblivion.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> _*Any*_ tube amp stops me from lusting after solid state amps. Clarity, details, tube tone and lovely wide soundstage. It's all there.


Here....fixed this for you.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Here....fixed this for you.



Not just any tube amps. These have mysterious powers.  When Odyssey comes, I'll have sleepless nights.


----------



## UntilThen

Well Tomas if you could wet my appetite with a photo of the completed Odyssey.  

Anyway this is the first time in 1.5 years that I change the driver tubes of Oblivion. It's the NEC 6AV6 that nearly got lost and took almost 3 months to get to me....  I've not heard Oblivion sound so vivid and energized. At the beginning of this year, Oblivion took a back seat as I toy with v280, Auraulic Taurus Mk2, Questyle CMA 12, Schiit Mjolnir 2 and La Figaro 339i. None of those amps are with me now and they aren't shabby amps. In fact any of those could be the center piece of a very decent system but Oblivion stayed. I'm very pleased with the synergy it has with He1000se and LCD4.


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey might arrive just about the same time as Chameleon.

Chameleon is Byrant's amp, custom made by Eric of McChanson amps, using complete Silk transformers and choke with covers from http://www.sacthailand.com/. Chameleon is a KT150 speaker and headphone amp using almost similar power tubes as Odyssey but with 6EM7 as drivers. It will also use GZ34 tube rectification. Expected power output is 20 watts in ultralinear mode. A bit less in triode. Eric will pass me the amp and I will test it before I send it to Byrant. Essentially there will be a face off of 2 potent amps.

The month of late August and September will be very interesting !


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Well Tomas if you could wet my appetite with a photo of the completed Odyssey.


It's not finished. It's got wires sticking out of it lol  I don't have the switches for the impedance and speaker switch yet. So I have to hot-wire the output of the Sowter transformers when testing. There're four secondary windings that needs to be connected in series or parallel with each other to form the different impedance taps. 
I'll post some nice pics once the switches are wired up and I can close the amp.



UntilThen said:


> Anyway this is the first time in 1.5 years that I change the driver tubes of Oblivion. It's the NEC 6AV6 that nearly got lost and took almost 3 months to get to me.... I've not heard Oblivion sound so vivid and energized. At the beginning of this year, Oblivion took a back seat as I toy with v280, Auraulic Taurus Mk2, Questyle CMA 12, Schiit Mjolnir 2 and La Figaro 339i. None of those amps are with me now and they aren't shabby amps. In fact any of those could be the center piece of a very decent system but Oblivion stayed. I'm very pleased with the synergy it has with He1000se and LCD4.


Nice! Oblivions input stage is SE so you can hear some tone difference in the input tubes, despite the gyrator plate load giving the tubes a flat load line. Have you tried rolling the EL81's?


UntilThen said:


> Odyssey might arrive just about the same time as Chameleon.
> 
> Chameleon is Byrant's amp, custom made by Eric of McChanson amps, using complete Silk transformers and choke with covers from http://www.sacthailand.com/. Chameleon is a KT150 speaker and headphone amp using almost similar power tubes as Odyssey but with 6EM7 as drivers. It will also use GZ34 tube rectification. Expected power output is 20 watts in ultralinear mode. A bit less in triode. Eric will pass me the amp and I will test it before I send it to Byrant. Essentially there will be a face off of 2 potent amps.
> 
> The month of late August and September will be very interesting !


Nice! I'm looking forward to it! I'll post power output measurements on Odyssey today. It will have more power than I initially planned!


----------



## UntilThen

Well ok... don't let me rush you. Wires sticking out will look frankensteinish   

I have not roll any EL81 in Oblivion because my spare set is exactly the same Siemens EL81.  

Mawr power did you say in Odyssey? Well I promise I wouldn't complain !


----------



## SonicTrance

@UntilThen 
Odyssey power output. This is not under 1% THD measurements but a visually clean output signal on the oscilloscope.

Triode connected KT88's:
8 ohms - 15W
32 ohms - 13W
100 ohms - 14W
300 ohms - 7.5W

UL connected KT88's:
8 ohms - 21W
32 ohms - 19W
100 ohms - 16W
300 ohms - 11W

The 8 ohm measurements are taken from the 8 ohms tap, 32 ohms from the 32 ohm tap and 100 and 300 ohms are taken from the 128 ohm tap.
This is crazy power for headphones! You can always use the 8 ohm tap for all impedance headphones for a darker background. Higher impedance output will always have higher noise as well. The more sensitive headphones are better run from low impedance.


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks Tomas. That's 1 watt more than Chameleon in UL.   Should drive some nice Tannoy speakers. This is a nice surprise. Susvara or He6se should be a piece of cake.  

I thought that my 300b amp (Destiny) at 8 watts into 8 ohms in triode mode is powerful. Odyssey will be way more powerful than Destiny. Wonder what happens when I use KT150 or KT170 tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

This is one of the shortlisted speakers I had in mind for Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

Will likely get a pair of Abyss 1266 TC for home demo when Covid situation here gets better. When will the spending stops?


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> When will the spending stops?


Never!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> When will the spending stops?


Likely at this point:


----------



## UntilThen

Dammmmm .... Bcowen please change RIP to GEC.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Dammmmm .... Bcowen please change RIP to GEC.


Better?


----------



## UntilThen

Today I bought another pair of EL11. It's branded Philips Miniwatt and is of the slim shape. As Odyssey main drivers are EL11, I have to make sure I have enough to last me and Bcowen's lifetime. 

So I have one pair of Telefunken EL11 coke shape, 2 pairs of Siemens EL11 coke shape, one pair of RFT EL11 slim shape and now this Philips Miniwatt. This looks to be new.


----------



## Maxx134 (Jul 19, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Chilling on a Sunday evening before Wimbledon Men's final. Loving what I'm hearing from Hekse and LCD4 from Oblivion. This amp stops me from lusting after solid state amps. Clarity, details, tube tone and lovely wide soundstage. It's all there. Really waiting to find out how different Odyssey is from Oblivion.


I definitely stopped after I compared this amp to soo many amps, even afterwards I still compared to more amps I was lucky to visit friends to compare. Nope, this is my amp for life. I already know there is a level where you don't have to worry about missing anything. Your at the top already, and actually looking down on other amp life cycles.
Nothing new under the sun to achieve. Let the competition cry 😉



UntilThen said:


> Anyway this is the first time in 1.5 years that I change the driver tubes of Oblivion. It's the NEC 6AV6 that nearly got lost and took almost 3 months to get to me.... I've not heard Oblivion sound so vivid and energized


Nice. Driver tubes still fun to roll on oblivion because your listening has to be much more critical and differences are non-traditional.
It takes alot to make that driver section to actually make a difference and I found the Mullard tubes to give me a tiny touch of euphoric magic in the driver section.
It was a Mullard 6AT6.. hard to find.



UntilThen said:


> I have not roll any EL81 in Oblivion because my spare set is exactly the same Siemens EL81.


Them output tubes may last forever, but I think that it is an overlooked area for tube rolling.

True it is not meant to have sonic difference, but there are other aspects, inherent to the tubes I have noted, such as dynamics.
I found certain output tubes to "sound" a bit more "louder", or "powerful" for lack of description.
These intangibles are also very subtle, but noticable for me.



Tesla el81 on the left, and Mazda 6dr6 on the right.
To me, these are the two best tubes.
Tesla most dynamic/lively, and Mazda (or any 6dr6) the most delicate/expansive.
Edit** stock seimems tubes most neutral overall, but perform more closer to the mazda.
Note, these differences of output stage, are not a difference in sound signature/tone (which would be a driver tube aspect, to a slight extent), but instead of "output volume" aspects of the sound.
👍🙂


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 19, 2021)

I would have to agree with you there Maxx. I like Oblivion from the start but I like it more as time passed. This is unusual for me because I usually get bored with an amp after 1 year.  This amp has a lot of tube tone. About just right. He1000se can sound bright out of neutral solid state amps but Oblivion gave it the right touch. There's transparency and lovely euphonics. The synergy of Yggdrasil > Oblivion > He1000se is perfect for me.

This is the first time I've seen you mention specific power tubes for Oblivion. I've spend a lot on tubes for the upcoming Odyssey and I've spend as little on Oblivion. I'll give the Tesla EL81 and Mazda 6dr6 a whirl. I'll have to find a Mullard 6AV6. I have to use 6AV6 instead of 6AT6 because my Oblivion can also drive speakers.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 19, 2021)

I've got some updates from Tomas on Odyssey. There will be impedance settings for 8, 32, 72 and 128 ohms - for headphones.

His preliminary testing of Odyssey shows that with LCD3, it's as quiet as Oblivion. That is great because I know Oblivion is dead silent with no music playing.


----------



## UntilThen

An interesting feature of Odyssey is a feedback switch for EL11. Could set it to on or off and that's left to me to decide which I prefer. According to Tomas, feedback on reduce distortion but also reduce gain. Not by much though.

I got excited when Tomas says that 6SL7 surprise him. A good surprise I assume.  

When pressed on whether KT88 or EL12 spez sound better, he says he needed more time because both sounded very good.  

Well Tomas, I will just sit here and dream while Oblivion and Destiny entertain me and these 2 are crackling amps. As I am writing this, Jules my friend who is repairing my Elekit TU-8200 message me that the amp has powered on, meaning it's alive again. I am going to be full of amps again. Might as well bring the Woo Audio Wa22 here to join the party.

Ah if that is not enough, someone is tempting me with a Sparkos Aries. Is that a drone?


----------



## baronbeehive (Jul 20, 2021)

Maxx134 said:


> I definitely stopped after I compared this amp to soo many amps, even afterwards I still compared to more amps I was lucky to visit friends to compare. Nope, this is my amp for life. I already know there is a level where you don't have to worry about missing anything. Your at the top already, and actually looking down on other amp life cycles.
> Nothing new under the sun to achieve. Let the competition cry 😉


The amp that excites me most is the SET amp with the new school bits and pieces!
.



Maxx134 said:


> Tesla el81 on the left, and Mazda 6dr6 on the right.
> To me, these are the two best tubes.
> Tesla most dynamic/lively, and Mazda (or any 6dr6) the most delicate/expansive.
> Edit** stock seimems tubes most neutral overall, but perform more closer to the mazda.
> ...


Not heard Tesla on my amps but I know they are highly regarded, as are Siemens. I got the Mazda silver anode 12Ax7's for my little SET amp before trying the Siemens which are fairly similar I believe, and I never felt the need to go from the Mazdas. And your description of them as delicate and expansive is also correct for the 12Ax7's, they are so light and airy, and I'll throw in another word... "ethereal", I love them They are light and yet they do have a certain punch, guitar strings are so well defined for example.


----------



## UntilThen

Couldn't resist this pair of Dario Miniwatt by Mullard so I bought it. Look so new, even the box.   Now to see how different it is to the NEC and the original tubes.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Couldn't resist this pair of Dario Miniwatt by Mullard so I bought it. Look so new, even the box.   Now to see how different it is to the NEC and the original tubes.


I hope they're good! I've had bad experience with top getter 6AV6's. They're much noisier than the side getter tubes. Fingers crossed!


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 20, 2021)

SonicTrance said:


> I hope they're good! I've had bad experience with top getter 6AV6's. They're much noisier than the side getter tubes. Fingers crossed!



Gulp ! I may have to change the getter position.   Oh just saw that the NEC are also side getters.

This is the original tube you send me. What brand are they? Pins are gold in photograph.


----------



## UntilThen

This Elekit TU-8200 is coming back to me at last. I will use it as a test bed for new arrival tubes for Odyssey. It's a guinea pig.   

Hope it works because Jules does not have headphone or dac to test listening to it. He measured all the voltages though. This reminds me of the GOTL which I send for repair and also to replaced all the 7 sockets. When I went to collect it, I ask William the engineer if he listen to the amp, he look at me in astonishment and said, 'I never listen to any of the amps I repaired'. I then ask, how do you know it works if you don't listen to it. He took me to the bench and hooked up the amp to the oscilloscope and said 'see the waveforms? that's how I know it works'. I took GOTL home half believing him but it works and works beautifully. The morale of the story. Never doubt the oscilloscope.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> This Elekit TU-8200 is coming back to me at last.


Any idea what went wrong with it?


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Any idea what went wrong with it?



FET got burn up. Field Effect Transistor ... that's all I know about FET.  

I believe the 807 tubes are not suitable for Elekit TU-8200 because the tube that went up in flames was from a new pair. When I told my supplier about it, he was very surprised. Said he tested the tubes before sending it out to me. He did gave me another new tube again. Now another user on the Elekit TU-8200 thread reported that after using a new pair of 807 tube on his amp, one channel stop working but before that the LED light came on with an amber warning colour. I did use EL12 spez on the Elekit amp and there weren't any problems.

I ask Tomas about using 807 tubes in Odyssey. He said that 807 is fine but I need to use 5U4G rectifier for a lower voltage.

This is the Sylvania 807 tubes on the 1st day when it sounded glorious. On the 2nd day, a shot of pink flame went up the left tube and I watch in amazement.


----------



## UntilThen

See the PCB board before and after cleaning.

Before


After. I had Mundorf caps and a new resistor and FET put in. Or I ask Jules to.


----------



## UntilThen

And I don't know what possess me to buy another pair of top getter 6AV6 for Oblivion. Maybe it's a Mazda and it's also brand spanking new.


----------



## UntilThen

Was wondering what's Mazda tubes. This link shed some light or confusion.  
https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tubes&m=243142

Some tubes are Adzam. That's Mazda spelt backwards.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> And I don't know what possess me to buy another pair of top getter 6AV6 for Oblivion. Maybe it's a Mazda and it's also brand spanking new.


I've never tried Mazda or the Mullard 6AV6's but I got a full box of Japanese 6AV6 (I forget the brand) that I basically can't use cause they pickup hum like crazy. I've tried different techniques to stop it from happening but gave up.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Gulp ! I may have to change the getter position.   Oh just saw that the NEC are also side getters.
> 
> This is the original tube you send me. What brand are they? Pins are gold in photograph.


That's an RCA 6AV6.


----------



## Maxx134 (Jul 21, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Couldn't resist this pair of Dario Miniwatt by Mullard so I bought it. Look so new, even the box.   Now to see how different it is to the NEC and the original tubes.


Wow! That's a great catch.
Thats basically a Mullard style tube.
I believe the two plants (England & Holland) made same tubes in some years.
I believe there is a Philips miniwatt, and a miniwatt dario. Both desirable.

A great place to google tube types is "radiomuseum" . All the data there, except for brand name info.
There's another site that discusses "brand names", that I will try to find.




UntilThen said:


> a shot of pink flame went up the left tube and I watch in amazement.


Lol! You never forget when you see a tube die!



SonicTrance said:


> I've never tried Mazda or the Mullard 6AV6's but I got a full box of Japanese 6AV6 (I forget the brand) that I basically can't use cause they pickup hum like crazy. I've tried different techniques to stop it from happening but gave up.


Yeah, unfortunately Japan was NOT good at tube making in those days.
Probably the worst.
I don't think they even had a popular name brand.

The Mazda tubes definitely has nothing to do with the mazda (auto) name now.
Mazda was a France made tube.
A "pride-and-joy" of France fame.
Thier answer to the Europe Mullard fame.

In those days each company had their own secrets with their tube production, even if it killed the worker with poisoning (!) 😳🤪
All these old companies literally did take their own specific tube making ingredients & secrets to their graves.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Wow! That's a great catch.
> Thats basically a Mullard style tube.
> I believe the two plants (England & Holland) made same tubes in some years.
> I believe there is a Philips miniwatt, and a miniwatt dario. Both desirable.
> ...



Thank you. I'm happy now. When I saw that Miniwatt Dario, I immediately wanted it. I make an offer for 2 euros less and was rejected. Son of a ..... but then I realize I was trying to bargain for 2 euros.... sigh. What's wrong with me. So I bought it at the stated price.  





Maxx134 said:


> Lol! You never forget when you see a tube die!



That fateful day is one I'll not forget. I was so shocked I didn't reach for my iPhone to take a picture. That pink flame was so beautiful to watch. Alas it cost me $250 for this repair and many months of the amp out of action ! Tubes would have been burn in now for Odyssey had the Elekit not burned. 



Maxx134 said:


> Yeah, unfortunately Japan was NOT good at tube making in those days.
> Probably the worst.
> I don't think they even had a popular name brand.
> 
> ...



Well my NEC 6AV6 is from Japan and it sounded great now in Oblivion. So remember NEC  

This is where I bought my NEC from and seller has more ! https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/151135293351

Hmmm I have several interactions with Mazda tubes. So this is the story of how EL3N came into being in the Feliks Audio Elise and Euforia thread. In the early days of Elise, Mullard ECC31 was sought after but it was expensive so several members started using 6N7G instead because it's cheaper. I was also looking for good 6N7G tubes. I came across this red tube call Mazda EL3N (picture below) and I show it in the Elise thread. Hypnos1 became interested and started adapting EL3N for use in Elise. That was the start of using crazy pentodes as strapped triodes in Elise. After EL3N came EL11, EL12, EL12 spez. After I left that thread they went on to use EL38, 39, KT66, KT88, GU50 and so forth.  

So Mazda is special to me because I stumbled upon EL3N because of it. The rest as they say is history.



and this is my Mazda 6N7G. I still have this same pair.


----------



## UntilThen

I talk about how much I love Oblivion with He1000se but today I gave LCD4 my full attention on Oblivion. You can see that the volume dial on Oblivion is at 11 o'clock. You wouldn't want to turn it up any higher because that might do some carnal damage. 

I've been listening to songs after songs on Roon > Tidal HiFi (giving Apple Music a break) and now this song by Annie Lennox 'A Whiter Shade of Pale' came on. Goosebumps started appearing on my hands. The music moved me. It's at such moments, I know why I spend my time and coins on good head-fi gear. There's nothing I would rather do than spend time listening to music with my setup... apart from exercise


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> NEC 6AV6 is from Japan


Didn't realize that, but never seen a demand for NEC. But haven't heard anything bad either. Really haven't heard anything although I had so many brands, the NEC brand nobody mentioned. 🥲🙃


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I talk about how much I love Oblivion with He1000se but today I gave LCD4 my full attention on Oblivion. You can see that the volume dial on Oblivion is at 11 o'clock. You wouldn't want to turn it up any higher because that might do some carnal damage.
> 
> I've been listening to songs after songs on Roon > Tidal HiFi (giving Apple Music a break) and now this song by Annie Lennox 'A Whiter Shade of Pale' came on. Goosebumps started appearing on my hands. The music moved me. It's at such moments, I know why I spend my time and coins on good head-fi gear. There's nothing I would rather do than spend time listening to music with my setup... apart from exercise


...sorry I had to chime in when you mentioned Annie Lennox she has exactly the same effect on me lol . That song is just one of many tearjerkers on the album Medusa including "Thin Line Between Love and Hate.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> This is the Sylvania 807 tubes on the 1st day when it sounded glorious. On the 2nd day, a shot of pink flame went up the left tube and I watch in amazement.


 Hmmm, reminds me of when I superglued a loose base on a WE421A and when I switched it on all the fumes trapped inside lit up gloriously .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> ...sorry I had to chime in when you mentioned Annie Lennox she has exactly the same effect on me lol . That song is just one of many tearjerkers on the album Medusa including "Thin Line Between Love and Hate.



 

First song I listen to this morning with Oblivion and LCD4 is by Beck - 'Morning'. Beauuuutiful. I'm showing a Youtube version but I listen to it on Roon > Tidal or Apple Music. Both very good and way better than Youtube version.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm thinking of buying Pink Floyd Pulse Live on vinyl ..... once you start looking there's lots of things to buy.

https://www.jbhifi.com.au/products/...d-deluxe-edition-180gm-vinyl-2018-reissue-4lp


----------



## UntilThen

Everyday is a day closer to Odyssey. Any day now I expect Tomas to publish pictures of the Greek hero *Odysseus.*


----------



## bcowen

Maxx134 said:


> Didn't realize that, but never seen a demand for NEC. But haven't heard anything bad either. Really haven't heard anything although I had so many brands, the NEC brand nobody mentioned. 🥲🙃


Pretty sure these NEC's were made by RCA.  Stupid thing broke when I dropped it on the floor, if you can believe it.  Not a horrible loss, as it was pretty ordinary sounding before I broke it. In fact the only thing I miss is the Japanese text on the back which I thought was pretty cool.   






NEC on left, RCA on right:


----------



## UntilThen

Don't forget that the NEC has copper rods while the RCA has ordinary steel rods.


----------



## UntilThen

And look at this NEC 5t30 .... it's a monster ! Maybe I should buy it to display.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/234098011996?hash=item3681542f5c:g:FN0AAOSwJ7tg99-2


----------



## UntilThen

Ooooo NEC 2a3 tubes

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/310203139355?hash=item48398c451b:g:cYkAAOSwEyRaiTbk


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Don't forget that the NEC has copper rods while the RCA has ordinary steel rods.


Good eye!  The NEC is marked as a 6520 which is supposed to be a higher spec tube than the RCA 6AS7G in the photo.  Not sure if a true RCA 6520 (or other US-made 6520) has copper posts or not and the NEC is the only 6520 I've had in my hands.  Sonically I couldn't tell much difference between them, other than the RCA 6AS7 having a slightly warmer and mellower tone to it.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> And look at this NEC 5t30 .... it's a monster ! Maybe I should buy it to display.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/234098011996?hash=item3681542f5c:g:FN0AAOSwJ7tg99-2


That reminds me of the robot from the original Lost In Space...


----------



## UntilThen

Omg I'm looking for a 12ax7 for Odyssey but at US$220 a pair,  I'll leave these NEC for Bcowen.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/324713428611?hash=item4b9a6db683:g:x2EAAOSwspBg7ehn


----------



## UntilThen

Alright King Tut has put aside:-

GEC KT88 NOS NIB
Mullard EL34 double D getters brown base xf2?
Telefunken EL34 metal base
Amperex 6SL7 pair silver base - never seen this before
GE 5U4G rectifier - yes GE, Mr Bcowen

for me at prices that will make a grown man cry.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Everyday is a day closer to Odyssey. Any day now I expect Tomas to publish pictures of the Greek hero *Odysseus.*


I'll finish Odyssey this weekend!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I'll finish Odyssey this weekend!



Seriously?


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Seriously?


Yes! 
I rebuilt the power supply yesterday as I wasn't happy with it. You can simulate all you want but sometimes simulations are not accurate to what's happening in reality.
Now I'm happy and so will you be, hopefully!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Yes!
> I rebuilt the power supply yesterday as I wasn't happy with it. You can simulate all you want but sometimes simulations are not accurate to what's happening in reality.
> Now I'm happy and so will you be, hopefully!



Guess the power supply is very important. This is what you told me about making the amp very quiet with low impedance headphones yeah?

Can’t wait to hear the sound of silence. 😀


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Guess the power supply is very important. This is what you told me about making the amp very quiet with low impedance headphones yeah?
> 
> Can’t wait to hear the sound of silence. 😀


Yes, very important! 
Since we're doing the power supply old school in Odyssey with tube rectification and no regulator it's a challenge! I could just put in a high voltage regulator but then the B+ wouldn't fluctuate with the signal which we actually want in Odyssey to bring out more of that "tube sound"!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Yes, very important!
> Since we're doing the power supply old school in Odyssey with tube rectification and no regulator it's a challenge! I could just put in a high voltage regulator but then the B+ wouldn't fluctuate with the signal which we actually want in Odyssey to bring out more of that "tube sound"!



In my next life, I want to be an engineer building tube amps but now I'll just rely on you and I won't pretend to understand half of what you said there. However yes to tube sound and I want KT88 to sound like KT88 and EL34 to sound like EL34.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> In my next life, I want to be an engineer building tube amps but now I'll just rely on you and I won't pretend to understand half of what you said there. However yes to tube sound and I want KT88 to sound like KT88 and EL34 to sound like EL34.


Don't worry. All tubes will sound like they supposed to


----------



## UntilThen

It's amazing how tubes sound different. There's a distinct KT88 tone that is markedly different to EL34.

Anyway, I await your impressions of how Odyssey sound with KT88 or EL12 spez with either Siemens EL11 or 6SL7 drivers and the Mullard GZ34 rectifier.


----------



## UntilThen

Of course it's not just dependent on tubes. The Sowter output transformers will play a big part. Basically all the parts that goes in it and your design and implementation. 

Just going through hundreds of messages with you since the start has been my privilege and joy. This build more than any other build has been communicated thoroughly and for that I thank you.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Of course it's not just dependent on tubes. The Sowter output transformers will play a big part. Basically all the parts that goes in it and your design and implementation.
> 
> Just going through hundreds of messages with you since the start has been my privilege and joy. This build more than any other build has been communicated thoroughly and for that I thank you.


Absolutely! Everything plays a big role in how the amp sounds! I'm impressed by the Sowter iron sonics. But not very impressed by their secondary wiring 😆 It would be interesting to hear the same transformer with regular taps vs their separate winding scheme. According to Sowter the separate windings brings better HF response.

It has been a joy for me as well! Really a fun build. Though I have the least fun part left, which is wiring the transformer output switches!


----------



## UntilThen

And that's because I wanted 4 different impedance settings of 8, 32, 72, 128.   Thanks.

Unlikely I'll have another tube amp that I would be willing to go all the way though. I remember the uncertainty of whether we will be getting Yamamoto sockets because the supplier didn't respond for a long time. Deciding on caps didn't take me long at all. You mention Mundorf caps and I simply said ok. Deciding on the chassis was a bit of a to and fro between a wooden chassis or steel or aluminium. Deciding on driver tubes was also a bit of deliberation but I'm glad you persuaded me to use my EL11 tubes together with 6SL7.

A picture of the Amperex 6SL7 came through from my supplier. He said it's the best 6SL7. To which I roll my eyes. Time will tell if it's the best.


----------



## Maxx134 (Jul 22, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Ooooo NEC 2a3 tubes
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/310203139355?hash=item48398c451b:g:cYkAAOSwEyRaiTbk


No, not "oooo". They don't have individual rounded plates, but instead some flat sharp angled rippled plates.
Thats a newer and less desirable plates. I would not consider them at all for anything. Look for better brand names like silvana (US) or a European tube.




UntilThen said:


> Omg I'm looking for a 12ax7 for Odyssey but at US$220 a pair,  I'll leave these NEC for Bcowen.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/324713428611?hash=item4b9a6db683:g:x2EAAOSwspBg7ehn


No, they trying to make profit on rarity, not sound quality. Those are grey plates. Nothing special.



UntilThen said:


> A picture of the Amperex 6SL7 came through from my supplier. He said it's the best 6SL7. To which I roll my eyes. Time will tell if it's the best


They look promising if them plates look silver. Either way Amperex a solid choice brand.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> And that's because I wanted 4 different impedance settings of 8, 32, 72, 128.   Thanks.
> 
> Unlikely I'll have another tube amp that I would be willing to go all the way though. I remember the uncertainty of whether we will be getting Yamamoto sockets because the supplier didn't respond for a long time. Deciding on caps didn't take me long at all. You mention Mundorf caps and I simply said ok. Deciding on the chassis was a bit of a to and fro between a wooden chassis or steel or aluminium. Deciding on driver tubes was also a bit of deliberation but I'm glad you persuaded me to use my EL11 tubes together with 6SL7.
> 
> A picture of the Amperex 6SL7 came through from my supplier. He said it's the best 6SL7. To which I roll my eyes. Time will tell if it's the best.


Never come across these at all, didn't know 6SL7's existed, might search them out, I wouldn't have anything else than Amperex EL84 in my baby amp.


----------



## baronbeehive (Jul 22, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> First song I listen to this morning with Oblivion and LCD4 is by Beck - 'Morning'. Beauuuutiful. I'm showing a Youtube version but I listen to it on Roon > Tidal or Apple Music. Both very good and way better than Youtube version.



This is almost as good as a music tip thread than an amp build thread, maybe we could have a politics corner ..., or... golf... .


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> They look promising if them plates look silver. Either way Amperex a solid choice brand.



Yeah he told me that the Amperex has silver plates and he emphasize that, like it mean something. So you reckon silver pate is good?



baronbeehive said:


> Never come across these at all, didn't know 6SL7's existed, might search them out, I wouldn't have anything else than Amperex EL84 in my baby amp.



I reckon you should not be my competitor searching for good 6SL7s.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> This is almost as good as a music tip thread than an amp build thread, maybe we could have a politics corner ..., or... golf... .



Heh heh politics is strictly off limits here. Golf... the last golf picture I posted of the posture of a player was too much. It's a burn in, seared into the mind's image.

Here a song for you again this morning. An oldie, Avalon by Roxy Music. This is a classic album. Did you know that the female singer in the song is from a Haitian band who doesn't speak English? Her name is Yanick Etienne. The 80s are beautiful years.



So beautiful, Michael Fremer use it to compare vinyl vs cd in this video... @ 4:24


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Yeah he told me that the Amperex has silver plates and he emphasize that, like it mean something. So you reckon silver pate is good?


Normally silver plates emphasize the trebles, which I can vouch for with my Mazda silver anodes which are more treble centric than the grey plate version!



UntilThen said:


> I reckon you should not be my competitor searching for good 6SL7s.


OK... I'm sure they don't exist anyway lol!


----------



## UntilThen

He's got another pair of 807 for me. A made in Great Britain. Must be good.  



This GE 5U4G I'm buying in honor of Bcowen. My supplier has all the nice tubes still in original boxes. Well he's not a supplier but a private collector who I have the privilege of meeting and persuading him to sell me some of his goodies.


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> Don't worry. All tubes will sound like they supposed to


Then it would behoove @UntilThen to get rid of those GE's now.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Alright King Tut has put aside:-
> 
> GEC KT88 NOS NIB
> Mullard EL34 double D getters brown base xf2?
> ...


Ugh.  Let's hope that one bad apple really _doesn't_ spoil the whole bunch.


----------



## bcowen

Maxx134 said:


> Either way Amperex a solid choice brand.


Unless they're made in the England part of Russia (these are rebranded Svetlanas).


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Heh heh politics is strictly off limits here. Golf... the last golf picture I posted of the posture of a player was too much. It's a burn in, seared into the mind's image.
> 
> Here a song for you again this morning. An oldie, Avalon by Roxy Music. This is a classic album. Did you know that the female singer in the song is from a Haitian band who doesn't speak English? Her name is Yanick Etienne. The 80s are beautiful years.
> 
> ...



Great song, transports me to a nice place of peace and romance every time, along with Roxy's "More Than This".


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Unless they're made in the England part of Russia (these are rebranded Svetlanas).


Yeah, that's the thing about Amperex's they're usually rebrands!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> He's got another pair of 807 for me. A made in Great Britain. Must be good.


Not sure that Philips were ever made in GB, they're made in Holland, see if there is a triangle etched mark in the glass envelope.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Not sure that Philips were ever made in GB, they're made in Holland, see if there is a triangle etched mark in the glass envelope.



Philips presence is everywhere. Amperex Electronics was in Brooklyn, New York when Philips bought it in 1955 and later enlarged it. So I wouldn't be surprised if they have a plant in Great Britain.


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> Yeah he told me that the Amperex has silver plates and he emphasize that, like it mean something. So you reckon silver pate is good?


The internals look good, but I never knew an Amperex with silver plates, so who knows if rebranded also. Still looks good.


bcowen said:


> Unless they're made in the England part of Russia (these are rebranded Svetlanas).


Haha looks like lots of rebranding occured with certain brands.


baronbeehive said:


> Yeah, that's the thing about Amperex's they're usually rebrands!


One thing I noticed is that all the Amperex I tried were good, so them rebrands were good choices. 🙂


----------



## UntilThen

Tick tock tick tock. Any moment now, Odyssey will be unveil.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm getting regular correspondence from Eric of McChanson amps. Pictures of Chameleon (KT150 SET amp) are coming to me like tsunami hot news. This will no doubt be Eric's most outstanding build in his entire life. Everything centres around the Super Silk transformers from Thailand. They are a sight to behold.

However compared to Odyssey, there's no question which one is bearing on my mind now. Odyssey has the famed Sowter output transformers and Tomas's fit and finish is in a different class.

Both will be heading my way, seated on my rack. Chameleon is just transitioning through. Once I've evaluated and tested it, I will be shipping it to Bryant in USA. It's incredible how well I've known Bryant now and I've not even met him face to face. 

Right now though all I have thoughts are of giving Odyssey my full attention.


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> Right now though all I have thoughts are of giving Odyssey my full attention.


Sounds like you'll be busy for a while 😊👍


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Sounds like you'll be busy for a while 😊👍



You have no idea how ‘busy’ I will be but it will be a business that I would love. Where to find time for golf and badminton now?

There’s a zillion and one tubes to roll in 2 amps.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> There’s a zillion and one tubes to roll in 2 amps.


@bcowen can help you with that... Just stick to GE tubes!


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> @bcowen can help you with that... Just stick to GE tubes!


I will _not_ be an enabler to a hoarder with a zillion tubes.  The cutoff is strictly enforced at 1 million.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Where to find time for golf and badminton now?


bcowen can deputize for you on the green while you are away... he must have perfected his swing by now waiting for you to retrieve your golf balls from the lake 🙂.


----------



## baronbeehive

... or... you could always get one of these while you are on the green:






the gold would remind you of your McChanson while you are parted from it lol 😉.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> ... or... you could always get one of these while you are on the green:



Somehow I'm not into IEMs and DAPs. I could have but I just wasn't into it. I don't move around with a ear bud in my ears. Did not even want to get the Apple iPod Pros.

My son got himself a custom fitted Empire Ears Odin and will be ordering the iBasso DX300, a DAP powerful enough to drive the HD800S. Those Odins are pretty exceptional. I audition them at Minidisc. I was surprised at the level of details and articulation as compared to a full size headphone like the Focal Utopia. I was comparing those 2 at the shop.  

I brought along my He1000se for comparison. I was keen on perhaps getting the Utopia as a 3rd headphone. However I preferred the He1000se over Utopia and I shelfed any plans of getting the Utopia.


----------



## UntilThen

This is my Ice Station Zebra named after Alistair Maclean's novel. With Odyssey and Chameleon arriving, it will be a crowded field.

You can see all 3 amps powered on and fed from Yggy. I was just plugging my headphones in for comparison.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Somehow I'm not into IEMs and DAPs. I could have but I just wasn't into it. I don't move around with a ear bud in my ears. Did not even want to get the Apple iPod Pros.


Agreed, it's nice to  hear the sounds of the countryside some of the time.. or the cursing on the golf course... .


----------



## UntilThen

There's a time for everything. Time to smell the roses, hear the birds sing, Tee off with that perfect drive, or hop on my Specialized.


----------



## Maxx134 (Jul 30, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Somehow I'm not into IEMs and DAPs. I could have but I just wasn't into it



I been using my iBasso 220max dap's line out, as my primary source for a while.
Sold off the desktop Dacs for a Dap.
By doing so, I avoid *ALL* the problems of computers and the software players, and interconnect/USB cables, spdif adapters...etc and all their associated jitter issues.
Just a line out to my amp.
😯🙂😛


----------



## UntilThen

I'm just spoilt with the convenience of my PC. Did think of buying a Roon Nucleus Server... Aside from that, there's always the turntable and CD player.


----------



## UntilThen

The day of auditioning Utopia vs He1000se. Taken on the 31st May 2021. It's already 2 months. How time flies.




Empire Ears Odin with a Astell&Kern dap. Same day at Minidisc. This iem retails for 5k plus, has 11 drivers and you can hear everything. Only thing it doesn't have that He1000se has is the big soundstage and orchestra size tone of the HiFiMan. For incisiveness and cutting edge details, the Odin wins. Bass is what make me smile. Can a tiny device make such astounding bass? It sure can. Not the Audeze LCD4 kind of bass but nevertheless impressive for an iem.

Banish the thought of the iem. Saving my money for an Abyss 1266 TC or Susvara.


----------



## UntilThen

A most interesting day listening to Rock Classic from Apple Music in lossless format. I remember listening to Summer of 69 with He1000se and Elekit 8200 and thinking to myself that it's really good. 

Imagine my surprise when I swap to Oblivion. Now this is an awakening. There's a sweetness at the top end with amply voiced mids and bass. This did sound better to my ears. 

Last to listen to is Destiny. This is where Oblivion and Destiny do what they do best. Destiny's mids and bass is a moving experience while Oblivion is just more linear through out and I'm almost certain that Oblivion is more tubey now than when I first had it.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> A most interesting day listening to Rock Classic from Apple Music in lossless format


Didn't know Apple music did lossless, is that for listening or downloading?


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Empire Ears Odin with a Astell&Kern dap. Same day at Minidisc. This iem retails for 5k plus, has 11 drivers and you can hear everything. Only thing it doesn't have that He1000se has is the big soundstage and orchestra size tone of the HiFiMan


Yep, soundstage can't be done with iem's IMO. Have you tried the HE1000SE direct from the Astell and Kern?



UntilThen said:


> Banish the thought of the iem. Saving my money for an Abyss 1266 TC or Susvara.



😎✌️.

I was never comfortable with IEM's, painful after a  while, not to mention kept dropping out!


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> I been using my iBasso 220max dap's line out, as my primary source for a while.
> Sold off the desktop Dacs for a Dap.
> By doing so, I avoid *ALL* the problems of computers and the software players, and interconnect/USB cables, spdif adapters...etc and all their associated jitter issues.
> Just a line out to my amp.
> 😯🙂😛



So your Holo Spring DAC is no more?

😭.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Have you tried the HE1000SE direct from the Astell and Kern?



No. My iPhone can drive the He1000se but until you experience that headphone with the likes of Oblivion, Destiny and Elekit TU-8200, you wouldn't know what it can do.

For that matter He1000se sounded really good with v280, Taurus and Questyle CMA 12 but I just prefer it with a tube amp.


----------



## OctavianH

Maxx134 said:


> I been using my iBasso 220max dap's line out, as my primary source for a while.
> Sold off the desktop Dacs for a Dap.
> By doing so, I avoid *ALL* the problems of computers and the software players, and interconnect/USB cables, spdif adapters...etc and all their associated jitter issues.
> Just a line out to my amp.
> 😯🙂😛


You are right, but many of the aforementioned problems can be solved with a JCAT Femto USB card externally powered and a decent USB cable. I do this, works flawlessly.


----------



## SonicTrance (Jul 31, 2021)

@UntilThen
Here's the completed Odyssey, finally!













I'll let it cook for two days then ship it to you Matt!


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> @UntilThen
> Here's the completed Odyssey, finally!


What a beauty sonic!
.


----------



## Roasty

SonicTrance said:


> @UntilThen
> Here's the completed Odyssey, finally!
> 
> 
> ...



that is beautiful!
cant find it on your website. is this a build to order?
any price/specs available?


----------



## SonicTrance

baronbeehive said:


> What a beauty sonic!
> .


Thanks baron!


Roasty said:


> that is beautiful!
> cant find it on your website. is this a build to order?
> any price/specs available?


Thanks Roasty!

Right, there's no pics yet on the website. Odyssey is a custom SET build. This particular amp has the following add-ons:

- Sowter transformers

- Ability to choose between a dual triode driver tube or EL11 drivers. 

- Several inputs with selector switch

- Yamamoto sockets

- Triode/Ultralinear switch

Output tube is KT88 with lots of rolling options. 

Power output is about 15W in triode mode and 20W in Ultralinear mode into 8 ohms.

Contact me for price and options


----------



## LoryWiv (Aug 1, 2021)

Roasty said:


> that is beautiful!
> cant find it on your website. is this a build to order?
> any price/specs available?


Oh my, Odyssey is a work of *functional art in steel and glass* if ever I saw one. Congrats to both @SonicTrance and @UntilThen. What are the dimensions please? I am slso interested in knowing output impedance / suitability for different types of headphones (dynamic, planar, possible even IEM's, sorry UT, if there is a low impedance setting). I can take this to PM if not of general interest.


----------



## Magol79

SonicTrance said:


> @UntilThen
> Here's the completed Odyssey, finally!


Congrats to Tomas and UntilThen for the beautiful realisation of an idea long in the making. The result looks stunning and I believe the sonics will be outstanding as well.


----------



## Zachik

LoryWiv said:


> I can take this to PM if not of general interest.


I think several people are following with interest... please keep the info flowing publicly


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> @UntilThen
> Here's the completed Odyssey, finally!
> 
> 
> ...


What a work of art!  Totally gorgeous.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> @UntilThen
> Here's the completed Odyssey, finally!



Stunning is the only word I can think of. Just woke up and read every thread notifications before coming here to look at the pictures because if I don't, I'll never go and read the other posts.  

Your photography is stunning too. Odyssey looks carbonized silver. I'm glad I went with this than a wooden chassis because unknowingly, this is a look that I would want.

The song What a Feeling by Irene Cara comes floating through my LCD4 as I look at this creation and the lyrics sound real.

_'First when there's nothing
But a slow glowing dream

Take your passion
And make it happen_'

__


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Right, there's no pics yet on the website. Odyssey is a custom SET build.



Might I also add that this is based on old school tube amp design. 



LoryWiv said:


> Oh my, Odyssey is a work of *functional art in steel and glas*s if ever I saw one. Congrats to both @SonicTrance and @UntilThen. What are the dimensions please? I am slso interested in knowing output impedance / suitability for different types of headphones (dynamic, planar, possible even IEM's, sorry UT, if there is a low impedance setting). I can take this to PM if not of general interest.



Thanks Lory and everyone else who congratulated me .... and Tomas  .... and I agree, its a functional art in steel and glass. 

A few days ago, Tomas send me these power output measurements. I will never know how this Herculean amp will perform with an IEM because I will not use it with an IEM ... unless my son wants to plug in his custom Empire Ears Odin.

Impedance switch settings for 8, 32, 72, 128 ohms.

These measurements are in triode mode. Expect a lot more in UL. As Tomas mentioned, it's 20 watts in UL mode at 8 ohms for speakers.

_Measurements done!

Headphone output:
8R – 6.1W
20R – 4.75W
32R – 3.1W
50R – 2W
100R – 1.1W
200R – 551mW
300R – 403mW

Speaker output:
4R - 10.6W
8R - 14.2W_



Zachik said:


> I think several people are following with interest... please keep the info flowing publicly



Don't worry. I don't hold back anything. When I get my hands on Odyssey, I'll tell it like it is. When I compare with with Chameleon and all the tube amps I've sample before, I will give my opinion like it is.  Never mind that it's a functional work of art. 



bcowen said:


> What a work of art!  Totally gorgeous.



Thanks Bill ! I'll reinstate your pay now !


----------



## SonicTrance

LoryWiv said:


> Oh my, Odyssey is a work of *functional art in steel and glas*s if ever I saw one. Congrats to both @SonicTrance and @UntilThen. What are the dimensions please? I am slso interested in knowing output impedance / suitability for different types of headphones (dynamic, planar, possible even IEM's, sorry UT, if there is a low impedance setting). I can take this to PM if not of general interest.


Thanks!

The Dimensions are:
Height: 230mm.
Depth: 380mm.
Width: 380mm.

The output impedance can be whatever you want. This amp has custom output transformers  
It can drive any headphones you want but probably most suited for full size headphones.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Thanks Bill ! I'll reinstate your pay now !



Oh wow.  I'll have money again!  Just save enough for those GEC KT-77's that you know you'll have to have.


----------



## OctavianH

bcowen said:


> Oh wow.  I'll have money again!  Just save enough for those GEC KT-77's that you know you'll have to have.


Ah, do not worry, I'll bid for every GEC KT77 will ever appear.


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> Ah, do not worry, I'll bid for every GEC KT77 will ever appear.


I had 26 at one time -- 12 per (mono) amp and a couple spares for the Cary V-12i's.  Stupidly sold them a number of years ago for 3x what I paid for them, but I could probably get 10x about now.  Duh on me.   Those tubes even made me like tetrodes, which is newsworthy in and of itself.


----------



## OctavianH

I have a pair of GEC KT77 and a pair of Genalex KT77.... but I look forward


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Contact me for price and options



Price is about the equivalent of one golf cart, one set of Callaway Big Bertha and a golfing partner.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Price is about the equivalent of one golf cart, one set of Callaway Big Bertha and a golfing partner.


I hate it when you do that.  Almost makes me want to play golf, and I hate golf.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> I hate it when you do that.  Almost makes me want to play golf, and I hate golf.


How about this game of golf, a.k.a. GE smash?


----------



## Roasty

I can't stop looking at that amp.. 
The combination of the metal finish and the tubes selection, just perfect. My goodness.. I know I don't need it but I want it; if anything, just to stare at it on my rack. Possibly one of the most beautiful amps I've seen!


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> How about this game of golf, a.k.a. GE smash?


ROFL!!


----------



## UntilThen

Roasty said:


> I can't stop looking at that amp..
> The combination of the metal finish and the tubes selection, just perfect. My goodness.. I know I don't need it but I want it; if anything, just to stare at it on my rack. Possibly one of the most beautiful amps I've seen!



I can't stop looking at it either !

This all started with a dream. A dream to recreate the wonder years of Klangfilm amplifiers - http://www.tube-classics.de/TC/Klan... Siemens acquired the,in West Germany (Munic).

Whilst on the Glenn thread, I started buying Telefunken, Siemens and Tesla EL11, EL12, EL12 spez tubes. The plan was to have a custom amp to use these Y8A socket tubes. In fact I wanted an amp to use EL11 as drivers and EL12 spez as power tubes. That means I don't have to use adapters for the EL12 spez.

However I acquired an Elekit TU-8200 by chance and that started me on buying NOS KT66, EL34, 6550, 807 and to say I love these tubes is an understatement. 

So in talking to Tomas, Odyssey will be biased on KT88 but other tubes will also be able to be used optimally on it. Not least the EL12 spez with adapters.

Aside from using EL11 as drivers, there is provision for using a single 6SL7 or 6SN7 or 12au7 or 12at7 or 12ax7 as drivers. 

I refuse to count the price of NOS tubes but the appeal of Odyssey is enhanced by it. That's my dream. Odyssey and the amazing array of NOS tubes. 

My collection of EL11, EL12, EL12n, EL12 spez tubes


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Didn't know Apple music did lossless, is that for listening or downloading?



Yes they do now. https://www.whathifi.com/au/advice/...pple-music-lossless-and-spatial-audio-and-why

Apple offers three tiers of higher resolution audio: CD quality (16-bit/44.1kHz), Apple Music Lossless (24-bit/48kHz), and Hi-Res Lossless (up to 24-bit/192kHz).

Later in the year, there will also be Spotify High Res music.  Every company is vying for your dollar now.


----------



## UntilThen

Magol79 said:


> Congrats to Tomas and UntilThen for the beautiful realisation of an idea long in the making. The result looks stunning and I believe the sonics will be outstanding as well.



It's been a long road indeed. I look back at my first correspondence with Tomas regarding this amp, way back in Feb 9th 2021.

Nothing is secret. This is what I ask Tomas then.

_Hello Tomas,

You must be very busy now with amp orders.

I became very keen on a new amp after I tried Elekit TU-8500 and TU-8200 using KT88, KT77, 6L6gc and EL34 NOS tubes. It's auto bias, is very quiet and drives speakers beautifully in ultra linear mode at 8w. I'm impressed.

I know you can do such an amp and even better it but would you? This will be different from your other design in the Oblivion where tubes don't make much difference. You have much experience with modifying the Little Dot V6 or 8. What I want is an amp with great 2nd harmonic distortions and great bass. I heard Auris Nirvana at the shop with LCD-4 and I was so impressed. It use just one 12au7 and a pair of current production EH EL34. The power output is 6.5 watts but it drives Susvara beautifully. However Nirvana does not drive speakers and it's also $9200 Aussie dollars.

So what do you say? Something similar to Elekit TU-8200R functionality and power. Important criteria is quietness, the ability to switch those tube types I mentioned and perhaps smaller size than Infinity. I don't mind using Lundahl transformers. In fact that would be good.

Cheers
Matt_


----------



## UntilThen

How about a low light photography on a powered on Odyssey, Tomas?


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Price is about the equivalent of one golf cart, one set of Callaway Big Bertha and a golfing partner.


I know which I would rather have... what...? .... the amp of course .


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 1, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I hate it when you do that.  Almost makes me want to play golf, and I hate golf.


Maybe the crocs would make you change your mind??

I believe that's UT's golf buggy? I notice he's nowhere to be seen!


.


----------



## UntilThen

6 months from concept to completion today being the 1st of August 2021. Early in the project, Odyssey almost didn't happen. Tomas wrote to JACMusic for Yamamoto's sockets and didn't get any reply. Using y8A socket from China would have been a disaster. It has to be Yamamoto sockets. Finally JACMusic replied and yes they could supply those sockets. Then I became interested in Yamamoto's mA meters but alas they stop making them because it's not profitable.

The next hurdle was with Sowter transformers. Initially it was supposed to be Sowter mains, output transformers and choke but Sowter choke is too big and wouldn't fit inside the chassis. So a Hammond choke was chosen. The order for Sower transformers was placed and the waiting begins. Couple of weeks later, Tomas was told by Sowter that they have cancelled our order and refunded money because they have stopped producing the mains transformer. I was ready to kick the golf cart into the lake, along with Bcowen.

However Tomas said we can still go ahead. He will write to Sowter to order the 2 output transformers because that's the important bit. He will scout around for a suitable alternative for the mains transformer. Eventually he found one of similar specs in Hammond and even found matching end bells.

And so Odyssey came into being and will be coming home soon.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Maybe the crocs would make you change your mind??
> 
> I believe that's UT's golf buggy? I notice he's nowhere to be seen!
> 
> ...



LOL!  I'm familiar with the lake at the beginning of the video.  There are several of @UntilThen 's golf carts at the bottom of it.  Have no idea how they got there.


----------



## UntilThen

I wasn't going to use 12ax7 in Odyssey because it has a very high gain amplification factor of 100. However Tomas said it can be used and I needed to sample all of 12a*7 tubes. So when the opportunity for an Amperex Bugle Boy 12ax7 came up, I bought it. It's new in box and the seller said it has white paint on top to denote medical grade for the ultimate in performance.  That or I've gone Amperex crazy.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I wasn't going to use 12ax7 in Odyssey because it has a very high gain amplification factor of 100. However Tomas said it can be used and I needed to sample all of 12a*7 tubes. So when the opportunity for an Amperex Bugle Boy 12ax7 came up, I bought it. It's new in box and the seller said it has white paint on top to denote medical grade for the ultimate in performance.  That or I've gone Amperex crazy.


Be sure and try some Telefunkens too.  Not as 'tubey' sounding as the Amperex, but super-dynamic with great bass.

I've never been a big fan of Telefunken _power_ tubes, but I've been impressed with a number of their small signal tubes (12A*7's, 6DJ8's, etc).


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey is now on Ultrasonic Studios website. http://ultrasonicstudios.org/odyssey/


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Be sure and try some Telefunkens too.  Not as 'tubey' sounding as the Amperex, but super-dynamic with great bass.
> 
> I've never been a big fan of Telefunken _power_ tubes, but I've been impressed with a number of their small signal tubes (12A*7's, 6DJ8's, etc).



My quota is just one 12ax7 and when you have listen to Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez, you would want everything in your household to be Telefunken too. 

Ah there might be room for one pair of Telefunken EL34 metal base.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> My quota is just one 12ax7 and when you have listen to Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez, you would want everything in your household to be Telefunken too.
> 
> Ah there might be room for one pair of Telefunken EL34 metal base.


Well if you happen to run across some '50's production Tele 6DJ8's (no '60's or later, only '50s), let me know.  I'll mow your lawn for a whole year for free.  Wait....I'm already doing that, dangit.  I'll wash your car for free then.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> I'll wash your car for free then.


Are you sure you know what you're getting yourself into?  Have you seen @UntilThen car??


----------



## baronbeehive

Zachik said:


> Are you sure you know what you're getting yourself into?  Have you seen @UntilThen car??


Haha, looks like it was planted in early spring .


----------



## leftside

Very nice looking amp! Xmas is coming early for you.

Beware the 12AX7 rabbit hole. Looks like you might have a dutch Amperex (maybe Philips?) 60's 12AX7 in a USA Amperex box. Check out how much the early 1950's Mullards have been going for on eBay recently   The 12AX7 are great tubes, but my honest opinion is if your amp can take 6SN7 or 6J5 is to stick with the 6SN7/6J5.


----------



## leftside

bcowen said:


> Oh wow.  I'll have money again!  Just save enough for those GEC KT-77's that you know you'll have to have.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/393465011463


----------



## SonicTrance

Another amp is complete! This is a 300B version of Infinity! 

Input tubes are 6AV6's. Side note regarding 6AV6's with top mounted getters. This amp will ship with Tung-Sol 6AV6's with top getters. These have very different internal constructions to all other 6AV6's I've seen, also slightly fatter bottle. These don't pick up any hum. In fact they're dead silent!  












Next in line is a couple of Oblivions!


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> Are you sure you know what you're getting yourself into?  Have you seen @UntilThen car??


LOL!  That's _way_ cleaner than his golf cart though...


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> Another amp is complete! This is a 300B version of Infinity!
> 
> Input tubes are 6AV6's. Side note regarding 6AV6's with top mounted getters. This amp will ship with Tung-Sol 6AV6's with top getters. These have very different internal constructions to all other 6AV6's I've seen, also slightly fatter bottle. These don't pick up any hum. In fact they're dead silent!
> 
> ...


Aw crap.  I just drooled all over my keyboard.  That's making me insanely jealous for something I probably can't afford.  Just awesome!  I assume it will work with 1958 Western Electric 300B's?  Maybe I can finally put them to use (beyond funding retirement ).


----------



## bcowen

leftside said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/393465011463


Wow.  The Triplett 3444A is an extremely nice and accurate tester (as far as vintage testers) and assuming the seller is being honest those are at NOS values.  I bet those end up at over $800.  Last pair I saw went for almost $1k without the (supposed) solid testing numbers.


----------



## bcowen

leftside said:


> Very nice looking amp! Xmas is coming early for you.
> 
> Beware the 12AX7 rabbit hole. Looks like you might have a dutch Amperex (maybe Philips?) 60's 12AX7 in a USA Amperex box. Check out how much the early 1950's Mullards have been going for on eBay recently   The 12AX7 are great tubes, but my honest opinion is if your amp can take 6SN7 or 6J5 is to stick with the 6SN7/6J5.


2nd that.  IME, 12AX7's are problematic with noise and especially microphonics. Not to say there aren't really good ones out there, just hard to find truly quiet ones that _stay_ quiet.

On the 6J5 front, 7A4's are worth looking at too and can be cheaper due to less awareness/popularity.  A pair of Hytrons are my current faves in the Incubus amp paired with a TS 5998.


----------



## leftside

SonicTrance said:


> Another amp is complete! This is a 300B version of Infinity!
> 
> Input tubes are 6AV6's. Side note regarding 6AV6's with top mounted getters. This amp will ship with Tung-Sol 6AV6's with top getters. These have very different internal constructions to all other 6AV6's I've seen, also slightly fatter bottle. These don't pick up any hum. In fact they're dead silent!
> 
> ...


Cranking out some great looking amps. What do the various selectors on the front of the amp do?


----------



## SonicTrance

bcowen said:


> Aw crap.  I just drooled all over my keyboard.  That's making me insanely jealous for something I probably can't afford.  Just awesome!  I assume it will work with 1958 Western Electric 300B's?  Maybe I can finally put them to use (beyond funding retirement ).


Thanks! 
Yes, of course. It can use any 300B with stock spec, 5V 1.2A filament. You really have some of those? That's like sitting on a treasure!  



leftside said:


> Cranking out some great looking amps. What do the various selectors on the front of the amp do?


Thanks!
Volume knob in the middle, impedance switch on the right with OFF/low/high setting, then speaker OFF/ON.


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> Thanks!
> Yes, of course. It can use any 300B with stock spec, 5V 1.2A filament. You really have some of those? That's like sitting on a treasure!


Yes, a factory matched quad that I landed about 20 years ago.  Major sticker shock even back then.  Can't decide whether to actually use them or hold onto them for another 10 years and buy a vacation house with the proceeds. 

Perhaps I should talk to you about a high current setup so I can use my backup pair of KR 300BXLS's. Bought those for the Jota amp but the originals are still going strong and may last another 20 years.   The BXLS's might work in a regular 300B setup, but probably need some extra juice to perform at their optimum.


----------



## leftside

bcowen said:


> Yes, a factory matched quad that I landed about 20 years ago.  Major sticker shock even back then.  Can't decide whether to actually use them or hold onto them for another 10 years and buy a vacation house with the proceeds.
> 
> Perhaps I should talk to you about a high current setup so I can use my backup pair of KR 300BXLS's. Bought those for the Jota amp but the originals are still going strong and may last another 20 years.   The BXLS's might work in a regular 300B setup, but probably need some extra juice to perform at their optimum.


Definitely don’t use them. Plenty of other good 300Bs out there that are replaceable.


----------



## SonicTrance

bcowen said:


> Yes, a factory matched quad that I landed about 20 years ago. Major sticker shock even back then. Can't decide whether to actually use them or hold onto them for another 10 years and buy a vacation house with the proceeds.


Matched quad! Cool! I wouldn't use them TBH 



bcowen said:


> Perhaps I should talk to you about a high current setup so I can use my backup pair of KR 300BXLS's. Bought those for the Jota amp but the originals are still going strong and may last another 20 years.  The BXLS's might work in a regular 300B setup, but probably need some extra juice to perform at their optimum.


To get the most out of those beefy 300B's I'd recommend a traditional design with high current, as you say. Looking at the curves they're nice and linear even at lower current though.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Very nice looking amp! Xmas is coming early for you.
> 
> Beware the 12AX7 rabbit hole. Looks like you might have a dutch Amperex (maybe Philips?) 60's 12AX7 in a USA Amperex box. Check out how much the early 1950's Mullards have been going for on eBay recently   The 12AX7 are great tubes, but my honest opinion is if your amp can take 6SN7 or 6J5 is to stick with the 6SN7/6J5.



The seller advertised it as Philips Miniwatt. So you're correct, it's a Dutch Amperex but don't forget Philips bought over Amperex and acquired the plant in Brooklyn New York in 1955.

Only investing in one 12ax7 to try out. 

The drivers I'll be trying out are EL11, 6SL7, 6SN7, 12au7, 12at7, 12ax7. 

Very early in the design I had to make a choice of either 6J5 or EL11. I went with the latter because I have at least 5 NOS NIB pairs of different brands.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Another amp is complete! This is a 300B version of Infinity!



Really curious to know how that sound. You're on a roll !

Yesterday I was shocked to see 489 viewers. It's either my golf posts or Bcowen funny jokes.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/393465011463



Holy mackerel 92 bids with 4 hours to go. There's also a quad of GEC goodness.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1849710941...v=DefaultOrganic&_trksid=p2047675.c101224.m-1


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Very nice looking amp! Xmas is coming early for you.



Thanks Leftside ! I'll be tuning in to your custom KT88 / EL34 amp from Mescha when it's finished. When is it coming? Another very exciting amp for you no doubt. Hey we're both Sowter's customers.  



SonicTrance said:


> Next in line is a couple of Oblivions!



Looks like no Christmas for you.   



bcowen said:


> Yes, a factory matched quad that I landed about 20 years ago. Major sticker shock even back then. Can't decide whether to actually use them or hold onto them for another 10 years and buy a vacation house with the proceeds.



Bill, we've been friends a long long time. Now let's talk about those factory matched quad WE 300b tubes privately. Golf cart, Big Bertha golf set or golfing partner. Anything you want.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> How about a low light photography on a powered on Odyssey, Tomas?


----------



## UntilThen

Wow love it. It's exactly how I envisage it to be. The silver reflecting off the tube glow.

Now how about a little impression of how Odyssey sound with speakers and your LCD3f. You're allowed to say that you like it but I expect a little more descriptions.  

And what is that amp next to Odyssey?


----------



## Zachik

SonicTrance said:


> Another amp is complete! This is a 300B version of Infinity!
> 
> Input tubes are 6AV6's. Side note regarding 6AV6's with top mounted getters. This amp will ship with Tung-Sol 6AV6's with top getters. These have very different internal constructions to all other 6AV6's I've seen, also slightly fatter bottle. These don't pick up any hum. In fact they're dead silent!
> 
> ...


Beautiful amp!
I am curious: which 300B tubes are in the photos?


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Beautiful amp!
> I am curious: which 300B tubes are in the photos?



I think they are Psvane ACME 300b tubes. 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...50315793-02297-UneMJZVf&device=c&gclsrc=aw.ds


----------



## UntilThen

My headphones awaiting Odyssey's arrival.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> Thanks Leftside ! I'll be tuning in to your custom KT88 / EL34 amp from Mescha when it's finished. When is it coming? Another very exciting amp for you no doubt. Hey we're both Sowter's customers.


Maybe this month? The copper case is proving challenging for the powder coating guys to work with, so we'll see what happens. I think we have a plan B though.


----------



## UntilThen

Copper case !


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Really curious to know how that sound. You're on a roll !
> 
> Yesterday I was shocked to see 489 viewers. It's either my golf posts or Bcowen funny jokes.


Has to be your golf posts photos.  My humor is easily outclassed by reruns of Gilligan's Island.


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> Matched quad! Cool! I wouldn't use them TBH
> 
> 
> To get the most out of those beefy 300B's I'd recommend a traditional design with high current, as you say. Looking at the curves they're nice and linear even at lower current though.


I'll probably leave the WE's in the back of the closet.  Out of sight, out of mind.  Or something.  But that's the perplexing problem...what good are killer tubes in the back of a closet?  

Would the KR BXLS's work in that gorgeous Infinity as-is?  Quite a bit higher heater current draw than a standard 300B...


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Bill, we've been friends a long long time. Now let's talk about those factory matched quad WE 300b tubes privately. Golf cart, Big Bertha golf set or golfing partner. Anything you want.


Just for you, I'll offer a Friends and Family discount.  $25k (USD) and they're yours.  Free shipping too, but only for you.     PM me when you're ready....I'm still busy replacing all the duplex receptacles in my house.  Had no idea there were 117 in total....


----------



## OctavianH

Quantum Science Audio. LOL


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Wow love it. It's exactly how I envisage it to be. The silver reflecting off the tube glow.


Great! Glad you like it!



UntilThen said:


> Now how about a little impression of how Odyssey sound with speakers and your LCD3f. You're allowed to say that you like it but I expect a little more descriptions.


You know I'm terrible at describing sound with words. I'll leave that up to you 
I can say that it's a big contrast to your Oblivion. Just like we wanted! 



UntilThen said:


> And what is that amp next to Odyssey?


It's a Citadel amp with #47 DHT's and 6C8G input tubes. 


Zachik said:


> Beautiful amp!
> I am curious: which 300B tubes are in the photos?


Thanks! Those are Psvane ACME, like UT said.


bcowen said:


> I'll probably leave the WE's in the back of the closet.  Out of sight, out of mind.  Or something.  But that's the perplexing problem...what good are killer tubes in the back of a closet?
> 
> Would the KR BXLS's work in that gorgeous Infinity as-is?  Quite a bit higher heater current draw than a standard 300B...


Not as-is but it's only a slight redesign of the filament supply to make it work 👍
Operating point in Infinity is 215VA 45mA, they would last a long time in that amp.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> You know I'm terrible at describing sound with words. I'll leave that up to you
> I can say that it's a big contrast to your Oblivion. Just like we wanted!



A big contrast to my Oblivion is good enough for me. Life is about contrast. Clear soup or thick soup. Both are appealing.  



SonicTrance said:


> It's a Citadel amp with #47 DHT's and 6C8G input tubes.



6C8G is an interesting tube. http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aad0062.htm



SonicTrance said:


> Great! Glad you like it!



Like it enough to view it on my wide screen. The resolution is superb.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> A big contrast to my Oblivion is good enough for me. Life is about contrast. Clear soup or thick soup. Both are appealing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great looking amp Matt....Enjoy


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Great looking amp Matt....Enjoy



Thanks Joe. Probably the last tube amp for me but I know better than to make a resolution. I'll likely break it.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Thanks Joe. Probably the last tube amp for me but I know better than to make a resolution. I'll likely break it.



Ha...true...once you are in.....well you are in


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Ha...true...once you are in.....well you are in



Hotel California?  

I've Wa22 for 6as7 / 6080. Odyssey and Elekit 8200 for EL34 / KT88, etc. Destiny for 300b. Oblivion does it's own thing. 

There's 2a3 / 45 missing.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 2, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> The seller advertised it as Philips Miniwatt. So you're correct, it's a Dutch Amperex but don't forget Philips bought over Amperex and acquired the plant in Brooklyn New York in 1955.


If it is Philips as I suspect, it will most likely have a triangle mark for the Herleen factory etched in the glass.

Edit: Does it have the bugle boy mark on it?

Also does it have a manufacturer code of 111 on it which would indicate USA made Amperex


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> My headphones awaiting Odyssey's arrival.


Looking so sad and lonely .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> If it is Philips as I suspect, it will most likely have a triangle mark for the Herleen factory etched in the glass.
> 
> Edit: Does it have the bugle boy mark on it?
> 
> Also does it have a manufacturer code of 111 on it which would indicate USA made Amperex



I'll check when the tube arrives. 

The seller has this in the sales description and I believe him because he's been selling some very nice tubes. I miss out on a rare Telefunken 12ax7 because I hesitated. Again I didn't want to get many 12ax7 because I don't know how Odyssey will react with such a high gain tube.

*NOS 12ax7 made in Holland, this is the same as a bugle boy amperex
it has the white paint on top to denote that it is medical grade for the ultimate performance, if you only need one tube, it doesn’t get much better 
long plate version *


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Looking so sad and lonely .



Destiny, Oblivion and TU-8200 drives these 2 headphones superbly. I await to see what Odyssey can do.

Destiny and Oblivion have much wider soundstage than the Elekit and the 8200 is sporting Psvane KT88. All 3 amps are very good with LCD4 but Oblivion and Destiny are just a few steps better. Destiny is more dense while the air and space Oblivion produce on the LCD4 is just amazing. Destiny has just a lot more headroom. It makes the LCD4 sound bigger and it has no peers in the delivery of low notes. Bass you want it you get it by the bucket loads.

This is why I'm waiting for Odyssey arrival with much anticipation. On paper it will be much much more powerful than Destiny. Tomas only told me once in private correspondence that Odyssey is big, powerful and authoritative. He's a man of few words and rather let his customers do the impressions.

Also Eric just message me and Bryant that Chameleon is at the final stage of tuning and ready to be shipped out to me. This will be as powerful as Odyssey.   How I'm able to get 2 such speakers / headphone amps together at about the same time, I don't know. The sun, moon and earth must be aligned.


----------



## UntilThen

There has been many times I've been caught out unaware. I would be listening to a song with LCD4 and that moment in the music came on. I marvel at the tone and what it does to my senses. Having forgotten which amp I'm plugged in, I turn around and it was Oblivion that it's plugged into.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I'll check when the tube arrives.
> 
> The seller has this in the sales description and I believe him because he's been selling some very nice tubes. I miss out on a rare Telefunken 12ax7 because I hesitated. Again I didn't want to get many 12ax7 because I don't know how Odyssey will react with such a high gain tube.
> 
> ...


Personally I couldn't care a fig if it has bugle boy marks, I don't really believe that the bugle boy is any different to the tubes without the mark, they are exactly the same construction but don't  have the "bugle boy" mystique, or inflated price. I use Hammond Amperex, made to a high standard for use in organs, they have to make the grade.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Personally I couldn't care a fig if it has bugle boy marks, I don't really believe that the bugle boy is any different to the tubes without the mark, they are exactly the same construction but don't  have the "bugle boy" mystique, or inflated price. I use Hammond Amperex, made to a high standard for use in organs, they have to make the grade.



What I care more for are quiet tubes. The Brimar 12au7 long plates that I bought from my supplier is NOS NIB and was my pride and joy until I discovered that the source of the static and hiss was from the Brimar. 

With this pair of Psvane 12au7 that I have in the TU-8200 for a week already, every power tubes that I roll in are quiet.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Input tubes are 6AV6's. Side note regarding 6AV6's with top mounted getters. This amp will ship with Tung-Sol 6AV6's with top getters. These have very different internal constructions to all other 6AV6's I've seen, also slightly fatter bottle. These don't pick up any hum. In fact they're dead silent!



You wouldn't have a pair of Tung Sol 6AV6 top getters that I could buy, would you?  6AV6 are the drivers for my Oblivion.


----------



## UntilThen

Somethings happen for a reason. Meeting this tube supplier is either fortunate or unfortunate, depending on how you look at it.  

Then meeting another friend who going to arrange the Abyss 1266 TC for a home demo of a week or 2, is either fortunate or unfortunate depending on how you look at it. He told me it's much much better than my LCD4 and He1000se. That's heresy.  

Anyway I will have the Abyss to test out with Odyssey before I part with my dollars. Ah there's also SparkoS Lab Aries preamp and headphone amp. How many things do I have to play with at one time?


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> You wouldn't have a pair of Tung Sol 6AV6 top getters that I could buy, would you?  6AV6 are the drivers for my Oblivion.


I'll check my stash tonight after work 🙂 If I have another pair they're yours.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I'll check my stash tonight after work 🙂 If I have another pair they're yours.


----------



## leftside (Aug 3, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Then meeting another friend who going to arrange the Abyss 1266 TC for a home demo of a week or 2, is either fortunate or unfortunate depending on how you look at it. He told me it's much much better than my LCD4


You'll be able to make up your own mind soon  Do take a look at the YouTube videos on adjusting the TC. It took me about a week until I found the adjustments I liked. It really is quite amazing what you can do with the sound just by simple adjustments on the TC.

It was either fortunate or unfortunate for me that a very nice pair appeared on my local used audio market. No waiting and saved myself a few thousand dollars, but still had to spend a few thousand dollars...


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> You'll be able to make up your own mind soon  Do take a look at the YouTube videos on adjusting the TC. It took me about a week until I found the adjustments I liked. It really is quite amazing what you can do with the sound just by simple adjustments on the TC.
> 
> It was either fortunate or unfortunate for me that a very nice pair appeared on my local used audio market. No waiting and saved myself a few thousand dollars, but still had to spend a few thousand dollars...



You're a bad influence Leftside !  

Odyssey being packed up now to be shipped to me. It will sail with the Kon-Tiki with Bcowen as Thor Heyerdahl.

Eric will also courier Chameleon to me soon. It's been singing in his lounge !


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> How many things do I have to play with at one time?


Poor sod!


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> Poor sod!


You want to come here and help me? I need another pair of ears and hands to roll the tubes.


----------



## paradoxper

SonicTrance said:


> @UntilThen
> Here's the completed Odyssey, finally!
> 
> 
> ...


Bravo. That is a wonderful turnout!


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> You want to come here and help me? I need another pair of ears and hands to roll the tubes.


I would love to but unfortunately my passport is outdated. But Tomas could bring Odyssey to me himself. It would only take him a couple of hours by car.
Just a suggestion to lighten your burden.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> You're a bad influence Leftside !
> 
> Odyssey being packed up now to be shipped to me. It will sail with the Kon-Tiki with Bcowen as Thor Heyerdahl.
> 
> Eric will also courier Chameleon to me soon. It's been singing in his lounge !


I'm really good around water.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> You want to come here and help me? I need another pair of ears and hands to roll the tubes.


@triod750 , don't do it.  The only thing you'll get to listen to is your flesh charring while pulling out toasty hot tubes while @UntilThen sits in his comfy chair and yells at you to hurry up and swap faster.  Trust me on this.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> Bravo. That is a wonderful turnout!



Thanks paradoxper. That's a compliment coming from you but neither of us have heard it yet. Well I will tell you when I hear it.


----------



## UntilThen

Finally found the courage to roll in the Radiotron 807 in Elekit TU-8200. The tone is so good that I stared at it in amazement. Praying that it won't go up in flames and it didn't.  30 minutes later I'm still in awe with the sonics. There should be an amp build to use just these 807. That is what my supplier wanted to do. Have a custom amp build to use 4 of these as power tubes but he never got around to it. Now he wants to off load the tubes to me. 

The 807s are definitely going into Odyssey with a 5U4G rectifier, as advised by Tomas. It's hard to describe tube tone but these 807 nail it with texture, tonality and details.

Any taller and I will have to take the amp out of the rack.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 4, 2021)

bcowen said:


> @triod750 , don't do it.  The only thing you'll get to listen to is your flesh charring while pulling out toasty hot tubes while @UntilThen sits in his comfy chair and yells at you to hurry up and swap faster.  Trust me on this.


And anyway you would need a forklift truck to shift UT's stash 

Edit: .. or a golf buggy... now I know why all his buggies are at the bottom of the lake.. they sank with the load .


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Finally found the courage to roll in the Radiotron 807 in Elekit TU-8200. The tone is so good that I stared at it in amazement. Praying that it won't go up in flames and it didn't.  30 minutes later I'm still in awe with the sonics. There should be an amp build to use just these 807. That is what my supplier wanted to do. Have a custom amp build to use 4 of these as power tubes but he never got around to it. Now he wants to off load the tubes to me.


Glad your Elekit is working again!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Glad your Elekit is working again!



It has to work because it's the reason for Destiny and Odyssey. I explain it several times, even here on the 30th May 2021. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-tube-amps.854783/post-16382301. Jules who repaired it for me has gone back to France. I will miss him. Vive la france.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> It has to work because it's the reason for Destiny and Odyssey. I explain it several times, even here on the 30th May 2021. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-tube-amps.854783/post-16382301. Jules who repaired it for me has gone back to France. I will miss him. Vive la france.


Fishing... what happened to golf?? All that time spent coaching bcowan gone to waste .


----------



## UntilThen

Still using the 807 for more than 4 hours now and it hasn't blown up. So I guess it's ok for Elekit 8200. Tone is great. I can't wait to use it in Odyssey. 807 is similar to 6L6 but with higher voltage. I cannot use 6L6 in Odyssey. Only the 6L6GC.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Edit: .. or a golf buggy... now I know why all his buggies are at the bottom of the lake.. they sank with the load .


Actually, that was due mostly to the poor skills (and/or inebriation level) of the driver.  Not exactly sure who that was, but I heard he was a terrible caddy too.


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey has started on the journey home to Australia. It’s still somewhere in Sweden.


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> the seller said it has white paint on top to denote medical grade for the ultimate in performance.


Haha let me put a dap of white-out on the tip of my tube to make it more valuable!😛😁
As far as I know, such thing as "medical grade" hee.



SonicTrance said:


> Another amp is complete! This is a 300B version of Infinity!
> 
> Input tubes are 6AV6's. Side note regarding 6AV6's with top mounted getters. This amp will ship with Tung-Sol 6AV6's with top getters. These have very different internal constructions to all other 6AV6's I've seen, also slightly fatter bottle. These don't pick up any hum. In fact they're dead silent!
> 
> ...


I will add to first page 👍
What's the name of this one?🙂



bcowen said:


> I'll probably leave the WE's in the back of the closet. Out of sight, out of mind. Or something. But that's the perplexing problem...what good are killer tubes in the back of a closet?


Somebody mention 300b WE?..


From my testing, they seem to last a long time. Solid beyond solid.👍😊




UntilThen said:


> 6C8G is an interesting tube. http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aad0062.htm


It was my favorite (tung-sol model) best tube I tested when I was rolling hoards of 6sn7/6sl7/6f8g/6c8g types.😳🙂


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Haha let me put a dap of white-out on the tip of my tube to make it more valuable!😛😁



Do it now !

The tube arrived. Letters at the bottom @baronbeehive . See what you can make of it.




I think see the word 'Miniwatt'




Maxx134 said:


> What's the name of this one?🙂



Something along the lines of 'when the fat lady sings'



Maxx134 said:


> Somebody mention 300b WE?..



Give that to me now !


----------



## SonicTrance

Maxx134 said:


> I will add to first page 👍
> What's the name of this one?🙂


Thanks! It's an Infinity with 300B tubes


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey has started on the journey home to Australia. It’s still somewhere in Sweden.


I hope Odyssey doesn't end up somewhere in the Trojan war for 10 years .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I hope Odyssey doesn't end up somewhere in the Trojan war for 10 years .



Ha ha ... if that happens I'll send my warrior Bcowen to bring Odyssey home.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Do it now !
> 
> The tube arrived. Letters at the bottom @baronbeehive . See what you can make of it.


It looks exactly like one I've got, all I know is that most, if not all, 12Ax7 Amperex's are Philips Miniwatt. The manufacturer code looks like D7J which points to Valvo Hamburg which is about as far as I can go on this one, it is very tricky. The date of manufacture would be October, 1957 or 1967 most likely.

Is there an expert in the house??
.


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> Haha let me put a dap of white-out on the tip of my tube to make it more valuable!😛😁
> As far as I know, such thing as "medical grade" hee.


I'm selling tins of white paint at this very moment, only $1000, cheap at the price .



Maxx134 said:


> It was my favorite (tung-sol model) best tube I tested when I was rolling hoards of 6sn7/6sl7/6f8g/6c8g types.😳🙂


I never did get to try that one, shame it looked good!
.


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> Haha let me put a dap of white-out on the tip of my tube to make it more valuable!😛😁
> As far as I know, such thing as "medical grade" hee.


I think the term "medical grade" refers to tubes suitable for audioholic sufferers .


----------



## triod750

My guess is Valvo October 1967. It might be an educated guess but anyway, I have been wrong before. Last time was probably November 1967.  

mC means ECC83 (12AX7), 1 might be first revision.

D for Valvo, 7 for 1967 and J for October.


http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/ref4110.pdf
https://mullard.org/blogs/news/mullard-valve-etched-codes-how-to-interpret-them

What little I know I have learnt from gibosi and mordy. Any mistakes are my own.


----------



## Maxx134 (Aug 5, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Give that to me now !


Those weren't mine lol. I was fixing an amp last week.

Did someone mention mullard??
These are mine:



Holy Grails! 😯😊


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 5, 2021)

Maxx134 said:


> Those weren't mine lol. I was fixing an amp last week.
> 
> Did someone mention mullard??
> These are mine:
> ...


That's the closest I've ever come to these.. I can't afford to even look at them!


Edit: I still have the bog standard TS 6SL7's, not the 6C8G's, which are pretty good anyway.

I tried those ECC35 Mullards, pretty good, I preferred the TS's though.. (because I could afford them.. or could the last time I looked at the price). Didn't try the ECC33's, (6SN7 equivalent).


----------



## baronbeehive

triod750 said:


> My guess is Valvo October 1967. It might be an educated guess but anyway, I have been wrong before. Last time was probably November 1967.
> 
> mC means ECC83 (12AX7), 1 might be first revision.
> 
> ...


Yes.. but is it a Valvo Amperex or what? That is where it starts getting interesting.. and where I threw in the towel 🧐


----------



## mordy

Maxx134 said:


> Haha let me put a dap of white-out on the tip of my tube to make it more valuable!😛😁
> As far as I know, such thing as "medical grade" hee.
> 
> 
> ...


Speaking of medical grade tubes, the only thing I can think of is Tektronix that made oscilloscopes and lab equipment and presumably some stuff ended up in hospitals. They used to sell matched pairs of tubes with individual serial numbers:



Regarding colored tips on tubes, I have come across two such tubes. One is a Western Electric with a red tip and gold print:



I don't know what the red tip signifies, but no doubt the red/gold color scheme inspired the color of the new LordGwyn DIY amplifier chassis.
The second instance I know of with a colored tip are these Sylvania labeled 5654 tubes with a bluish tip:



I read somewhere that the blue paint was applied to selected tubes that had superior resistance to microphonics. Bought these tubes many moons ago, now, by looking at the print on them, I realize that they are GE tubes.

And speaking about added on designations, supposedly the best 10% of the C3g tubes (highest transconductance) were labeled C3gS. But the S was only added to the box:



The lucky few that have this tube (including me) reported that they could not hear any difference compared to the regular C3g tubes.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

mordy said:


> And speaking about added on designations, supposedly the best 10% of the C3g tubes (highest transconductance) were labeled C3gS. But the S was only added to the box:
> 
> The lucky few that have this tube (including me) reported that they could not hear any difference compared to the regular C3g tubes.



What is the markup on the "smiley face" variant?  I assume the "S" in C3g-S stands for smiley?


----------



## mordy

L0rdGwyn said:


> What is the markup on the "smiley face" variant?  I assume the "S" in C3g-S stands for smiley?


Years ago I bought several old used C3g tubes and went through them to make sure they worked or weren't worn out. I happened to have a sheet of different stickers from the grandchildren and decided to use some of them to indicate which ones sounded good.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

mordy said:


> Years ago I bought several old used C3g tubes and went through them to make sure they worked or weren't worn out. I happened to have a sheet of different stickers from the grandchildren and decided to use some of them to indicate which ones sounded good.



If scratch and sniff, might make for a nice air freshener when the tube is warmed up


----------



## mordy

L0rdGwyn said:


> If scratch and sniff, might make for a nice air freshener when the tube is warmed up


In correspondence with a Russian amplifier designer, he mentioned that he once made an amp with a case made out of Eaglewood that gave off a fragrant smell when the tubes heated up.

_"Agarwood, aloeswood, *eaglewood* or gharuwood is a fragrant dark resinous wood used in incense, perfume, and small carvings. It is formed in the heartwood of aquilaria trees when they become infected with a type of mold (Phialophora parasitica)."_

Here is an idea!


----------



## mordy

Forget it! Agarwood is one of the most expensice materials in the world according to Wikipedia:
"First-grade agarwood is one of the most expensive natural raw materials in the world,[4] with 2010 prices for superior pure material as high as US$100,000/kg, although in practice adulteration of the wood and oil is common, allowing for prices as low as US$100/kg.[5] A whole range of qualities and products are on the market, varying in quality with geographical location, botanical species, the age of the specific tree, cultural deposition and the section of the tree where the piece of agarwood stems from.[6] As of 2013, the current global market for agarwood is estimated to be in the range of US$6 – 8 billion and is growing rapidly.[7]"


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> My guess is Valvo October 1967. It might be an educated guess but anyway, I have been wrong before. Last time was probably November 1967.
> 
> mC means ECC83 (12AX7), 1 might be first revision.
> 
> ...



Very good Stefan ! I'm impressed and I'm delighted to have met you. Yes @gibosi and @mordy are my friends too. You know some of the people I meet in Head-Fi, I've form a bond that is as real as real life friends. That goes for some of the builders of tube amps.  and tube supplier... and Bcowen.....


----------



## UntilThen

I'm delighted to see all these discussions of tubes because tubes fascinate me. I will paint the tip of my tubes silver to match Odyssey.  The next lot of tubes to dabble in will be costly. Well I have already waded into the murky waters of KT88 / EL34 and it's just the start. 300b will be where it will hurt especially We 300b and Takatsuki.

Believe it or not, I'm already fantasizing on a 2a3 amp but I'll wait for Odyssey. It might cure me of upgraditis.  

However the latest joy is still the 807 tube. What is it with these not so expensive tubes that appeal so much to my ears? I have to plug it into Odyssey to hear how it sound. 2 other tubes I want to compare it with are EL12 spez and EL39. I've not even use EL39 since buying it NOS NIB.

@baronbeehive  what is this Tung Sol 6SL7 that you are talking about? Is it this? This is also one driver that I will be trying it in Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> If scratch and sniff, might make for a nice air freshener when the tube is warmed up



Sup Keenan.  It's good to see you popping in again. I still have 2 pairs of c3gs and I'm not sure what to do with them.  I spend so much time with Elise, Euforia and then GOTL that has dedicated sockets build for them. I had a lot of interactions with Glenn when GOTL was being built. Boutique tube amps should not be sold because they are a tube amp builder's trade mark.


----------



## triod750

baronbeehive said:


> Yes.. but is it a Valvo Amperex or what? That is where it starts getting interesting.. and where I threw in the towel 🧐


I have EL42 branded Adzam made by Mullard Blackburn, EL42 branded Philips made by Mullard Blackburn, EL42 branded....
And Mullard Blackburn was a Philips subsidiary.
The codes tells us where they were manufactured and the brands tells us who the resellers were. Probably.


----------



## mordy

triod750 said:


> I have EL42 branded Adzam made by Mullard Blackburn, EL42 branded Philips made by Mullard Blackburn, EL42 branded....
> And Mullard Blackburn was a Philips subsidiary.
> The codes tells us where they were manufactured and the brands tells us who the resellers were. Probably.


Adzam is Mazda backwards. It was very common for a tube manufacturer to buy tubes from another manufacturer and put their own name on them.
Resellers would buy from many different places and put their name on them.
Zaerix, Haltron and Pinnacle were major British rebranders/resellers. If you are lucky it is a GEC tube and not a Russian one.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 5, 2021)

triod750 said:


> I have EL42 branded Adzam made by Mullard Blackburn, EL42 branded Philips made by Mullard Blackburn, EL42 branded....
> And Mullard Blackburn was a Philips subsidiary.
> The codes tells us where they were manufactured and the brands tells us who the resellers were. Probably.


Yes, we're wading in very murky waters indeed. I had a Philips branded Mullard! The Philips I have atm is branded Mazda with a Mullard made in Britain mark, the only way I can tell is the Herleen factory mark which points directly to Holland! God help us .


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> I'm delighted to see all these discussions of tubes because tubes fascinate me. I will paint the tip of my tubes silver to match Odyssey.  The next lot of tubes to dabble in will be costly. Well I have already waded into the murky waters of KT88 / EL34 and it's just the start. 300b will be where it will hurt especially We 300b and Takatsuki.
> 
> Believe it or not, I'm already fantasizing on a 2a3 amp but I'll wait for Odyssey. It might cure me of upgraditis.
> 
> ...


Or maybe this TS 6SL7GT BGRP:


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> @baronbeehive  what is this Tung Sol 6SL7 that you are talking about? Is it this? This is also one driver that I will be trying it in Odyssey.



No, not that one, I did try a Tungsol with a similar construction and didn't rate it. The ones to go for are the RPBG ones, the "Holy Grail" ones, Holy S**T Batman ☺️.

I also had a pair of SUGTY's, but the RPBG ones, and frankly I couldn't tell any difference between them and the bog standard ones, except for the hugely inflated price 😠.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Sup Keenan.  It's good to see you popping in again. I still have 2 pairs of c3gs and I'm not sure what to do with them.  I spend so much time with Elise, Euforia and then GOTL that has dedicated sockets build for them. I had a lot of interactions with Glenn when GOTL was being built. Boutique tube amps should not be sold because they are a tube amp builder's trade mark.



Hello  I have been quite busy!  Lots of simultaneous projects and real job of course.  I would hold onto those C3g, never know whey they will be needed, from a designer's standpoint, they are incredibly useful - good voltage gain for two-stage designs, low output impedance, very linear.  They are a popular 300B driver, as seen in Glenn's 300B amplifier, would pair well with other DHT's too.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Did someone mention mullard??
> These are mine:



Give me the Mullard ECC35 !  So many expensive tubes to buy. I need the lottery.

What are the 2 big fat Mullards on the right?


----------



## baronbeehive

mordy said:


> Or maybe this TS 6SL7GT BGRP:



Yes that one.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Give me the Mullard ECC35 !  So many expensive tubes to buy. I need the lottery.
> 
> What are the 2 big fat Mullards on the right?


I think they're the 6C8G ones.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Or maybe this TS 6SL7GT BGRP:



I have several 12SL7gt... a pair in NOS NIB !!! Alas I cannot use them in Odyssey. Now I have to chase another TS 6SL7 bgrp.



baronbeehive said:


> No, not that one, I did try a Tungsol with a similar construction and didn't rate it. The ones to go for are the RPBG ones, the "Holy Grail" ones, Holy S**T Batman ☺️.
> 
> I also had a pair of SUGTY's, but the RPBG ones, and frankly I couldn't tell any difference between them and the bog standard ones, except for the hugely inflated price 😠.



Yeah Holy S**t Batman   I know the 12SL7gt bgrp sound well. Was using it in the GOTL a lot. I had all those beautiful drivers. Why did I sell them???

That's GEC B36 in the GOTL, and Mullard ECC33, TS 12SL7GT BGRP, Sylvania 6sn7w metal base waiting for their turns. 






L0rdGwyn said:


> Hello  I have been quite busy! Lots of simultaneous projects and real job of course. I would hold onto those C3g, never know whey they will be needed, from a designer's standpoint, they are incredibly useful - good voltage gain for two-stage designs, low output impedance, very linear. They are a popular 300B driver, as seen in Glenn's 300B amplifier, would pair well with other DHT's too.



Busy is good, especially when you're churning out money.  Will be watching your projects development.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I have several 12SL7gt... a pair in NOS NIB !!! Alas I cannot use them in Odyssey. Now I have to chase another TS 6SL7 bgrp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How did you rate the Mullard, and the Sylvania metal base?


----------



## gibosi

baronbeehive said:


> Yes.. but is it a Valvo Amperex or what? That is where it starts getting interesting.. and where I threw in the towel 🧐



While there were tubes manufactured by Valvo at their Hamburg factory (factory symbol D) and others that were manufactured by Amperex at their Long Island factory (factory symbol *) it is  also important to keep in mind that "Valvo" and "Amperex" were also marketing brands. So for example, virtually every tube Philips manufactured, regardless of the factory, that was destined for the US was labeled Amperex. And generally, tubes marketed in Germany were labeled Valvo, again regardless of the factory of origin. 

So best practice, ignore the brand. Philips factory valve codes tell the truth. 

http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/ref4110.pdf


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> I have several 12SL7gt... a pair in NOS NIB !!! Alas I cannot use them in Odyssey. Now I have to chase another TS 6SL7 bgrp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a theory: The 12V variants of the same tube in a 6V version don't sound the same.
In other words, a TS 12SN7GT does not sound the same as a TS 6N7GT.
Does anybody have an opinion on this?

On the other hand, some tubes can be run at both 6V or 12V (12AT7 as an example) and there I think the sound is the same.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> How did you rate the Mullard, and the Sylvania metal base?



They are my Samson and Delilah.   I also had the Mullard ECC35 which I like slightly better than the ECC33. Probably higher gain?

I could not buy another Sylvania 6sn7w metal base like that again. Bought NOS new from Langrex for 175 pounds. I love this tube a lot. Clear, details and soundstage ! The Mullards ECC35 33 are very special too. I may even prefer these over the TS 12sl7gt bgrp. Now I have a pair of GE 5691 red brown base that I'm also eager to try in Odyssey. And of course the Amperex 6SL7 silver plates. 

I will go crazy again with tubes .... sadly.... and that is not including rectifiers yet. Will get the 596. It's already set aside for me.


----------



## Maxx134 (Aug 5, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Give me the Mullard ECC35 !  So many expensive tubes to buy. I need the lottery.
> 
> What are the 2 big fat Mullards on the right?


They are more rare, because it was said Mullard didn't directly make these, but had it made for them.
I think it's not certain, and some say they may be from tung-sol with Mullard name. I have them NOS with original box 😯



baronbeehive said:


> I think they're the 6C8G ones.


Close, but they are the 6f8g (6sn7 mu)
🙂


----------



## Maxx134

mordy said:


> I have a theory: The 12V variants of the same tube in a 6V version don't sound the same.
> In other words, a TS 12SN7GT does not sound the same as a TS 6N7GT.
> Does anybody have an opinion on this?


Yes I experienced some 12v versions older and less forward in general, but I mostly had Sylvania in both versions. I also think some of the 12v were nicer in delicacy.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> While there were tubes manufactured by Valvo at their Hamburg factory (factory symbol D) and others that were manufactured by Amperex at their Long Island factory (factory symbol *) it is  also important to keep in mind that "Valvo" and "Amperex" were also marketing brands. So for example, virtually every tube Philips manufactured, regardless of the factory, that was destined for the US was labeled Amperex. And generally, tubes marketed in Germany were labeled Valvo, again regardless of the factory of origin.
> 
> So best practice, ignore the brand. Philips factory valve codes tell the truth.
> 
> http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/ref4110.pdf



Hey gibosi, good to see you on this thread. What do you think about the white paint on my medical grade Amperex 12ax7 ?


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 5, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> They are my Samson and Delilah.   I also had the Mullard ECC35 which I like slightly better than the ECC33. Probably higher gain?
> 
> I could not buy another Sylvania 6sn7w metal base like that again. Bought NOS new from Langrex for 175 pounds. I love this tube a lot. Clear, details and soundstage ! The Mullards ECC35 33 are very special too. I may even prefer these over the TS 12sl7gt bgrp. Now I have a pair of GE 5691 red brown base that I'm also eager to try in Odyssey. And of course the Amperex 6SL7 silver plates.
> 
> I will go crazy again with tubes .... sadly.... and that is not including rectifiers yet. Will get the 596. It's already set aside for me.


Yes  higher gain, thanks for that.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 5, 2021)

mordy said:


> I have a theory: The 12V variants of the same tube in a 6V version don't sound the same.
> In other words, a TS 12SN7GT does not sound the same as a TS 6N7GT.
> Does anybody have an opinion on this?
> 
> On the other hand, some tubes can be run at both 6V or 12V (12AT7 as an example) and there I think the sound is the same.


I only heard TS 12SN7 using a 12v to 6v adapter, (because the 12v were cheaper at the time)! Couldn't tell any difference but then I was running the 12v at 6v, sorry! I also couldn't tell the difference between a TS 6SN7 and a TS 6SL7, maybe my ears are shot after all this headphone listening, one reason I prefer speakers these days!


----------



## Maxx134

SonicTrance said:


> Another amp is complete! This is a 300B version of Infinity!
> 
> Input tubes are 6AV6's. Side note regarding 6AV6's with top mounted getters. This amp will ship with Tung-Sol 6AV6's with top getters. These have very different internal constructions to all other 6AV6's I've seen, also slightly fatter bottle. These don't pick up any hum. In fact they're dead silent!
> 
> ...


Posted in second post First page 👍🙂


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> Hey gibosi, good to see you on this thread. What do you think about the white paint on my medical grade Amperex 12ax7 ?



There is no way to know. Given that they were manufactured more than a half-century ago, it's hard to know who's had possession of them and what was done since then. Very frankly, when I see painted tips I usually suspect that an eBay vendor painted them before listing them. But maybe I am too cynical. lol


----------



## gibosi (Aug 5, 2021)

mordy said:


> I have a theory: The 12V variants of the same tube in a 6V version don't sound the same.
> In other words, a TS 12SN7GT does not sound the same as a TS 6N7GT.
> Does anybody have an opinion on this?
> 
> On the other hand, some tubes can be run at both 6V or 12V (12AT7 as an example) and there I think the sound is the same.



As long as they are configured properly, the heater voltage has no effect on the sound. And therefore, a 12SN7GT (and a 25SN7GT) will sound they same as a 6SN7TG, given the same construction and same year.

And yes, all one has to do is reconfigure the pins to switch between the 6 volt mode and the 12 volt mode of a 12A-7. Again, heater voltage makes no difference.


----------



## baronbeehive

gibosi said:


> There is no way to know. Given that they were manufactured more than a half-century ago, it's hard to know who's had possession of them and what was done since then. Very frankly, when I see painted tips I usually suspect that an eBay vendor painted them before listing them. But maybe I am too cynical. lol


Is snake oil white? 😉


----------



## Maxx134

gibosi said:


> There is no way to know. Given that they were manufactured more than a half-century ago, it's hard to know who's had possession of them and what was done since then. Very frankly, when I see painted tips I usually suspect that an eBay vendor painted them before listing them. But maybe I am too cynical. lol


Yep, I agree. I heard of "computer grade", but never "hospital 🏥 grade"!😊


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> Yep, I agree. I heard of "computer grade", but never "hospital 🏥 grade"!😊


Maybe they were factory tested for tolerance and found to be higher than usual for special purposes?


----------



## Maxx134

gibosi said:


> , given the same construction and same year


I think the reason I noticed a preference for the 12v is because mine were older and had different construction. 👍


----------



## triod750

Maxx134 said:


> Those weren't mine lol. I was fixing an amp last week.
> 
> Did someone mention mullard??
> These are mine:
> ...


'Distributed by Mullard'! When did you ever see such honesty on tubes before?


----------



## Maxx134

baronbeehive said:


> Maybe they were factory tested for tolerance and found to be higher than usual for special purposes?



Most likely a private owner marked them. Probably for reasons you say. Singling out favorites or they measured slightly better or newer. I doubt it matters at all, and never seen this practice.🥲


----------



## Maxx134

triod750 said:


> 'Distributed by Mullard'! When did you ever see such honesty on tubes before?


Haha that explains why I have original Mullard packaging. 😯😊


----------



## mordy

baronbeehive said:


> Maybe they were factory tested for tolerance and found to be higher than usual for special purposes?


The early computers used thousands of vacuum tubes. It seems very plausible that IBM ordered tubes with higher tolerances for their computers. If you see a Tung Sol tube with a lot of 9s on them, these tubes were made especially for IBM.


----------



## triod750

Maxx134 said:


> Most likely a private owner marked them. Probably for reasons you say. Singling out favorites or they measured slightly better or newer. I doubt it matters at all, and never seen this practice.🥲


I have Sylvania 5687WA with the tip dipped in a nice green colour. Green is a much superiour colour to white and red! Super tubes!!


----------



## UntilThen

I want a tube amp just like that picture above Tomas. I first got involved with ICL machines then it’s IBM all the way….


----------



## triod750

mordy said:


> The early computers used thousands of vacuum tubes. It seems very plausible that IBM ordered tubes with higher tolerances for their computers. If you see a Tung Sol tube with a lot of 9s on them, these tubes were made especially for IBM.


My first computer was very similar to this and very expensive.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> My first computer was very similar to this and very expensive.



yeah right…. Hahaha. I had a cray !


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> yeah right…. Hahaha. I had a cray !


I guess you had a crayon - didn't you?


----------



## mordy

triod750 said:


> I have Sylvania 5687WA with the tip dipped in a nice green colour. Green is a much superiour colour to white and red! Super tubes!!


Do you remember when you had to paint the edges of the CDs green to improve the sound?


----------



## UntilThen

Tracking shows Odyssey weight as 24 kgs…. Including packaging I guess. That’s still a heavy beast.


----------



## baronbeehive

As Graham Chapman said as the major in Monty Python, "now stop this at once this is getting very silly"

😊.


----------



## Galapac

UntilThen said:


> Tracking shows Odyssey weight as 24 kgs…. Including packaging I guess. That’s still a heavy beast.


Need any help carrying it into the mansion?


----------



## UntilThen

Galapac said:


> Need any help carrying it into the mansion?



I need help indeed because Bcowen can only carry a coconut.


----------



## bcowen

Maxx134 said:


> Haha let me put a dap of white-out on the tip of my tube to make it more valuable!😛😁
> As far as I know, such thing as "medical grade" hee.
> 
> 
> ...


I used the first gen re-issues in several Cary products.  Very synergistic match in all of them.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I need help indeed because Bcowen can only carry a coconut.


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> Speaking of medical grade tubes, the only thing I can think of is Tektronix that made oscilloscopes and lab equipment and presumably some stuff ended up in hospitals. They used to sell matched pairs of tubes with individual serial numbers:
> 
> Regarding colored tips on tubes, I have come across two such tubes. One is a Western Electric with a red tip and gold print:
> 
> ...


To my knowledge, no tube manufacturer ever painted tips of tubes (even with audiophile paint ).  Any paint was very likely applied by some company or person that tested them to denote....whatever.  On the plus side, it would indicate the tube was (probably) thoroughly tested by someone. On the flip side, I've read more than once that there are charlatans out there that paint the tip and then advertise them as some premium, specially selected version when in fact they've never been tested at all.  In short, I wouldn't put a lot of faith in a painted tip signifying much of anything.


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> To my knowledge, no tube manufacturer ever painted tips of tubes (even with audiophile paint ).  Any paint was very likely applied by some company or person that tested them to denote....whatever.  On the plus side, it would indicate the tube was (probably) thoroughly tested by someone. On the flip side, I've read more than once that there are charlatans out there that paint the tip and then advertise them as some premium, specially selected version when in fact they've never been tested at all.  In short, I wouldn't put a lot of faith in a painted tip signifying much of anything.


Precisely.
What about the red or white or yellow colored dots on the base by the tube pins?


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> Precisely.
> What about the red or white or yellow colored dots on the base by the tube pins?


Same thing as far as I know -- likely applied by a tube vendor or individual marking the tubes for their own identification purposes.  Tube manufacturers of old didn't spend time marking tubes.  It is possible that some current tube manufacturers like KR, Emission Labs, etc that do most things by hand mark the tubes in some fashion. I've never seen that, just saying the possibility exists.  For NOS tubes though it was pass/fail and the ones that failed were normally just discarded.


----------



## triod750

mordy said:


> Do you remember when you had to paint the edges of the CDs green to improve the sound?


Yes, I do, but at that time I only listened to vinyl.


----------



## UntilThen

I need to listen to my coloured vinyls. 😀

On another subject, I am kick starting my tubes purchase with 2 rectifiers. A GE 5u4g and a Mullard 5u4g. A pair of Ultrons 5u4g made in Germany was dangled in front of my nose but I will pass for now.


----------



## mordy (Aug 6, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Same thing as far as I know -- likely applied by a tube vendor or individual marking the tubes for their own identification purposes.  Tube manufacturers of old didn't spend time marking tubes.  It is possible that some current tube manufacturers like KR, Emission Labs, etc that do most things by hand mark the tubes in some fashion. I've never seen that, just saying the possibility exists.  For NOS tubes though it was pass/fail and the ones that failed were normally just discarded.


Picture of discarded tube heap Sylvania factory:



An importer of Chinese tubes claimed that the same new tubes sold cheaper on eBay were all B stock or rejects - something which I find hard to believe.


----------



## Zachik

mordy said:


> Picture of discarded tube heap Sylvania factory:


Now we all know where bangy bang get their tube inventory from...


----------



## baronbeehive

mordy said:


> Precisely.
> What about the red or white or yellow colored dots on the base by the tube pins?


Speaking of pins this is a good one to be aware of re: fake tubes: https://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=244954

So pointy pins beware, and yes, flying saucers do exist!


----------



## baronbeehive

mordy said:


> An importer of Chinese tubes claimed that the same new tubes sold cheaper on eBay were all B stock or rejects - something which I find hard to believe.


... I think I have found this seller.. my main supplier .


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Aug 6, 2021)

I bought some tubes from BB one time, and only because he was the only seller who had what I needed.  One of the tubes was completely dead.  Return was simple, but needless to say I won't ever buy from him again.  I was already skeptical, lived up to his reputation lol.


----------



## Zachik

L0rdGwyn said:


> I bought some tubes from BB one time, and only because he was the only seller at the with what I needed.  One of the tubes was completely dead.  Return was simple, but needless to say I won't ever buy from him again.  I was already skeptical, lived up to his reputation lol.


That is the tube world version of playing Russian roulette


----------



## mordy

Zachik said:


> That is the tube world version of playing Russian roulette


If you want to play Italian roulette, try Here *WE-GE* Again *High* Priced *Tubes*.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> If you want to play Italian roulette, try Here *WE-GE* Again *High* Priced *Tubes*.



Don't get me started on WE-GE..... it's the only seller I had to call on ebay admin to step in


----------



## Galapac (Aug 6, 2021)

mordy said:


> If you want to play Italian roulette, try Here *WE-GE* Again *High* Priced *Tubes*.


True that but he has some competition now from Greece in rosgr63eb.

Edit: Based on a private message I received I would like to clarify that WEGE has competition in dealing with similar tubes, in the same part of the world, so he is no longer the only game in town, nothing else implied.


----------



## UntilThen

I managed a get an underside shot of Odyssey from Tomas. I did not expect it to be as symmetrical, neat and beautiful as the top.  Out of respect for the builders, I don't show the point to point wiring and finished work. I did not show McChanson 300b amp inside as well.

There are Mundorf S/G/O coupling caps and the Nichicon MUSE cathode bypass caps. Also the choke and lots of stuff I haven't a clue about. The cables and wiring looks great ! It's a work of art. It's the best looking interior I've seen.


----------



## UntilThen

I crack up when I saw this thread....     

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/orgy-of-capacitors-the-cap-thread.284863/


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> Now we all know where bangy bang get their tube inventory from...


LOL!  And GE.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Speaking of pins this is a good one to be aware of re: fake tubes: https://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=244954
> 
> So pointy pins beware, and yes, flying saucers do exist!


A UFO getter makes it almost a guarantee it's a Russian tube.  Now there are lots of great sounding Russian tubes so I'm not dissing them at all, just that if it's advertised as some super unobtanium European holy grail tube selling for megabucks and has a UFO getter, it wasn't made in Europe.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> A UFO getter makes it almost a guarantee it's a Russian tube.  Now there are lots of great sounding Russian tubes so I'm not dissing them at all, just that if it's advertised as some super unobtanium European holy grail tube selling for megabucks and has a UFO getter, it wasn't made in Europe.



I still have at least 4 x 6n13s / 6h13c Svetlana and several Fotons. Perhaps I should have a custom amp build based on these tubes and call it .... Sputnik ?


----------



## UntilThen

When Odyssey comes, I'll play this as a first song. All for the @OctavianH the metal fan. 

Ah I found it on Tidal HiFi so I will play from there.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> When Odyssey comes, I'll play this as a first song. All for the @OctavianH the metal fan.
> 
> Ah I found it on Tidal HiFi so I will play from there.



I thought you play the Top Gun soundtrack. I am confused.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I thought you play the Top Gun soundtrack. I am confused.



Oh yes how can I forget. I have to play the song by Berlin, 'Take My Breath Away' and the tubes in Odyssey for the very first time will be Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez and Mullard 5u4g rectifier. That will take me back 3 years when I started thinking about an amp call 'Berlin'. 

Which reminds me of a conversation I had with Tomas this morning. I said,

_I'm tripping to hear Odyssey.   I'm hoping it will have cutting edge high notes without sibilance, plump depth but tight bass and a mid range to die for. Soundstage as wide as Oblivion. Clarity and details are a stand out. _ 

Tomas reply was,

_I can guarantee it will stand out.  

*Anyway this is how Berlin 'Take My Breath Away' came about.*_


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> _I'm tripping to hear Odyssey.   I'm hoping it will have cutting edge high notes without sibilance, plump depth but tight bass and a mid range to die for. Soundstage as wide as Oblivion. Clarity and details are a stand out. _


That's if it comes back from the Trojan War in one piece, the ancient Greeks love their audio! 😊


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> A UFO getter makes it almost a guarantee it's a Russian tube.  Now there are lots of great sounding Russian tubes so I'm not dissing them at all, just that if it's advertised as some super unobtanium European holy grail tube selling for megabucks and has a UFO getter, it wasn't made in Europe.


Yeah, didn't mean to imply that Russian tubes are c**p, on the contrary quality is absolute top level for their military grade, and other tubes, also caps. Just talking about the fakes, don't want anyone taken in.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> That's if it comes back from the Trojan War in one piece, the ancient Greeks love their audio! 😊



Meeting the naked Sirens will be the biggest hurdle to coming home.


----------



## UntilThen

Sat night listening session with LCD4 and Destiny my 300b amp. By now I'm very familiar with Oblivion, Destiny and Elekit tone. These are my terms of reference when comparing with Odyssey. Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 has gone back into Elekit and it's making LCD4 sing nicely.

My guess is that I will get Odyssey in 2 weeks time.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> My guess is that I will get Odyssey in 2 weeks time.


It's supposed to be a 5 week day delivery. You should get it sometime next week.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> It's supposed to be a 5 week day delivery. You should get it sometime next week.



Are you kidding me?   

I've never been in a hurry to get Odyssey throughout the whole build process but now I'm excited. It's the final stretch. So I'm getting it in August. It will be a memorable month. Both GOTL and Oblivion arrived in December, just before Christmas.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Meeting the naked Sirens will be the biggest hurdle to coming home.


Keeping your hands off the naked Sirens will be a bigger hurdle (IMO).


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 7, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Keeping your hands off the naked Sirens will be a bigger hurdle (IMO).


Now I know why it took Odysseus 10 years to come back.. 1yr for the Trojan war, and 9 years for the naked sirens, no wonder Helen of Troy was annoyed 🤣.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Now I know why it took Odysseus 10 years to come back.. 1yr for the Trojan war, and 9 years for the naked sirens, no wonder Helen of Troy was annoyed 🤣.


LOL!  And that's a _great_ name for @UntilThen 's next amp:  The Trojan.  Or if he stuffs it full of Russian tubes:  The Putin.


----------



## UntilThen

I wander if Odyssey comes with the sirens.  Trojan lol would be a killer name, as is Paranoid which I suggested for @Zachik's new tube amp.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I wander if Odyssey comes with the sirens.  Trojan lol would be a killer name, as is Paranoid which I suggested for @Zachik's new tube amp.


I like Paranoid much better than what @Zachik suggested with Dual Mononoid, but that's just me.  It's his amp.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> It's supposed to be a 5 week day delivery. You should get it sometime next week.



Sweden to Australia is a long way. A 5 day delivery timeframe is almost impossible in these pandemic times. I doubt I will get it next week, with or without the sirens.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Sweden to Australia is a long way. A 5 day delivery timeframe is almost impossible in these pandemic times. I doubt I will get it next week, with or without the sirens.


I think you read that wrong.  It's a 5 week delivery, just delivered during the day.


----------



## UntilThen

Tomas is very precise with his words. A 5 week day delivery is clear as mud. You should see the operating manual he wrote me for Odyssey. I'm clearly reminded that I need to wait minimum 5 mins after power off before I power on again. That means no rush job in tube rolling.

Which reminds me that someone told me he pull out the tubes while the amp was still power on.


----------



## Magol79

UntilThen said:


> Which reminds me that someone told me he pull out the tubes while the amp was still power on.


That's called a "hot swap" in the server world. A new feature to implement in tube amps..?


----------



## UntilThen

Magol79 said:


> That's called a "hot swap" in the server world. A new feature to implement in tube amps..?



So you're another IT guy. I'll request that of Tomas in my next 300b + 845 amp. Name to be chosen.


----------



## UntilThen

This is what I have in mind but Swedish quality.  Also the front is overdone. It needs to be simpler and less cluttered.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> This is what I have in mind but Swedish quality.  Also the front is overdone. It needs to be simpler and less cluttered.


Kind of interesting how they re-labeled the tubes.  The back (power) tubes are labeled as 805's, yet an 805 has a top plate cap which those don't.  Perhaps they didn't have a stencil for a 4 so they could properly label them as 845's.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 7, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Tomas is very precise with his words. A 5 week day delivery is clear as mud. You should see the operating manual he wrote me for Odyssey. I'm clearly reminded that I need to wait minimum 5 mins after power off before I power on again. That means no rush job in tube rolling.
> 
> Which reminds me that someone told me he pull out the tubes while the amp was still power on.


Ha! That means a total of 39,042 hours in total for you to roll all your tubes, or 509 years 🤣.

Edit: And that's assuming you go at it 24 hours/day!


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Ha! That means a total of 39,042 hours in total for you to roll all your tubes, or 509 years 🤣.


ROFL!  I predict he'll be anxiously awaiting delivery of his 171st new amp from Tomas in 500 years which will probably use an alien-inspired photon beam contained in an invisible force field instead of tubes.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  I predict he'll be anxiously awaiting delivery of his 171st new amp from Tomas in 500 years which will probably use an alien-inspired photon beam contained in an invisible force field instead of tubes.


SSHhhhh, you might just have let out sonic's secret development project there  🤣.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  I predict he'll be anxiously awaiting delivery of his 171st new amp from Tomas in 500 years which will probably use an alien-inspired photon beam contained in an invisible force field instead of tubes.


 
During a discussion on transmitting triodes a while back, @UntilThen jokingly said I was going to build him a 75TH amplifier.  I read this as his seventy-fifth amplifier and wondered for a moment if he had truly owned 74 previous amps.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> So you're another IT guy. I'll request that of Tomas in my next 300b + 845 amp. Name to be chosen.


New amp: "Hot Swap" by UltraSonic Studios!


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  I predict he'll be anxiously awaiting delivery of his 171st new amp from Tomas in 500 years which will probably use an alien-inspired photon beam contained in an invisible force field instead of tubes.


Or it will be using rare, hard to find circa 2021 JJ, Electro-Harmonics and other vintage tubes.


----------



## bcowen (Aug 7, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> Or it will be using rare, hard to find circa 2021 JJ, Electro-Harmonics and other vintage tubes.


LOL!  There will probably be some GE's left around too....and nobody will want them even then.


----------



## triod750

SonicTrance said:


> It's supposed to be a 5 week day delivery. You should get it sometime next week.


Correction. It's supposed to be a five week delivery. You should get it some day.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> During a discussion on transmitting triodes a while back, @UntilThen jokingly said I was going to build him a 75TH amplifier.  I read this as his seventy-fifth amplifier and wondered for a moment if he had truly owned 74 previous amps.



Oh you will build my 75th amp if I survive ... I stop updating my gear profile because it gets out of hand... 

Let me try and list it here:-

JDS LAB O2/ODAC - very first amp / dac
Darkvoice 336se - bought used. That's all I can afford then.   
Feliks Audio Elise
Euforia
Glenn OTL amp 6 x 6bx7gt
La Figaro 339 x 2
La Figaro 339i
Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP
Schiit Ragnarok
Woo Audio Wa22 - still around !
ALO Audio Studio Six
Oblivion
Elekit TU-8200
McChanson 300b amp - Destiny
Questyle CMA 12
Violectric v280
Schiit Mjolnir 2
Auralic Taurus Mk2
SMSL SP200

Not counting the vintage amps:-
Sansui AU-505
Sansui AU-7700
Sansui AU-717
Sansui AU-Alpha 907MR
Sony STR 7035
Kenwood KA-3300d - still around

and my stereo amp
Redgum Rgi120enr black series - still around


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> LOL!  There will probably be some GE's left around too....and nobody will want them even then.



Actually to crack you up, I'll roll in the GE 5u4g rectifier first because it's NOS NIB.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> I wander if Odyssey comes with the sirens.  Trojan lol would be a killer name, as is Paranoid which I suggested for @Zachik's new tube amp.





bcowen said:


> I like Paranoid much better than what @Zachik suggested with Dual Mononoid, but that's just me.  It's his amp.


What's wrong with Dual Mononoid?! Ingenious name!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Actually to crack you up, I'll roll in the GE 5u4g rectifier first because it's NOS NIB.


Hope it doesn't blow up the amp.  Where GE's are concerned, *NOS NIB* means *N*ettlesome, *O*dious *S*ound / *N*asty and *I*ncredibly *B*ourgeois.  Just so you know.


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> What's wrong with Dual Mononoid?! Ingenious name!


I like Twin Mononoid better.  Or Mononoid x2.  Everyone will think you got the latest version.


----------



## UntilThen

Next week Eric is sending Chameleon to me and if Odyssey does arrive next week, I will have a Dual Mononoid.


----------



## UntilThen

This is Chameleon, 20 watts of goodness in UL mode. Same as Odyssey.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 8, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> This is Chameleon, 20 watts of goodness in UL mode. Same as Odyssey.


As Odyssey is also 15-20w do you know if it is open loop, ie no GNFB? Seems quite high power to still be open loop without any form of control over impedance other that OT.


----------



## UntilThen

Are you asking about Odyssey or Chameleon? If it's Odyssey, I'll leave it to Tomas to answer. Meanwhile I'll ask Eric that question.


----------



## UntilThen

Well Eric was super quick with his reply...

_All Mcchanson amps have no GNFB... Let the amp sing its own way, undisturbed...  : ))_

and GNFB is not Goodnight Facebook but Global Negative Feedback.


----------



## SonicTrance

baronbeehive said:


> As Odyssey is also 15-20w do you know if it is open loop, ie no GNFB? Seems quite high power to still be open loop without any form of control over impedance other that OT.


No global feedback. It is setup as an anode follower. When using the 6SL7 socket there's no feedback, the EL11's have switchable feedback. The feedback is only really needed in UL mode. With the feedback switch in place Matt can decide for himself which sounds best.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Are you asking about Odyssey or Chameleon? If it's Odyssey, I'll leave it to Tomas to answer. Meanwhile I'll ask Eric that question.


Odyssey, there's no mention on the webpage.


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> No global feedback. It is setup as an anode follower. When using the 6SL7 socket there's no feedback, the EL11's have switchable feedback. The feedback is only really needed in UL mode. With the feedback switch in place Matt can decide for himself which sounds best.


That will be interesting when UL tries it with and without.


----------



## baronbeehive

It *would* be interesting if UL tried it.. I haven't the foggiest who UL is . I meant UT of course.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> No global feedback. It is setup as an anode follower. When using the 6SL7 socket there's no feedback, the EL11's have switchable feedback. The feedback is only really needed in UL mode. With the feedback switch in place Matt can decide for himself which sounds best.



Hi Tomas, can you explain why only EL11 have a switchable feedback and not 6SL7 and then only in UL mode. What would feedback do?


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> It *would* be interesting if UL tried it.. I haven't the foggiest who UL is . I meant UT of course.



Hahaha I was stumped when you say UL. Did you mean Ultra Linear mode but now I know ... it's a typo error.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Hahaha I was stumped when you say UL. Did you mean *Ultra Linear* mode but now I know ... it's a typo error.


Yeah, you must have been right, it was a typo, I wondered why I did that!

Re: the 5 weekday transit time, I imagine every day *seems* like a week lol.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Re: the 5 weekday transit time, I imagine every day *seems* like a week lol.



No crap. Every hour I'm fidgeting. 

Eric tells me he's sending Chameleon on Wed to get to me by Thurs or Fri. With a step down transformer because it's 120v for Bryant who lives in US of A. Sending a pair of KT150 as well. I'm going to buy a pair of KT170 later. 

Eric tells me they are coming out with KT220 lol. How do you keep up?


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Hi Tomas, can you explain why only EL11 have a switchable feedback and not 6SL7 and then only in UL mode. What would feedback do?


An amp with negative feedback would switch itself off when you are having too much fun  .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> An amp with negative feedback would switch itself off when you are having too much fun  .



Perhaps I should have negative feedback on the golf cart because Bcowen is having too much fun with it.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Well Eric was super quick with his reply...
> 
> _All Mcchanson amps have no GNFB... Let the amp sing its own way, undisturbed...  : ))_
> 
> and GNFB is not Goodnight Facebook but Global Negative Feedback.


And also *G*e's *N*ot *F*easible, *B*oy.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Perhaps I should have negative feedback on the golf cart because Bcowen is having too much fun with it.


I thought that's what the dog shock collar you make me wear was for.  It's certainly not _positive_ feedback.


----------



## bcowen (Aug 8, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Eric tells me they are coming out with KT220 lol. How do you keep up?


This will be going into one of your (many) future amps: the KT-6900.  At least it turns into a triode at some point along the way.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 8, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> ... What would feedback do?


Basically it controls impedance, and following on from that the whole frequency spectrum, gain, harmonics, distortion. No feedback means higher gain, possible THD, possible high distortion. Feedback means lower gain, control over harmonics and distortion but can mean more closed in sound.

Edit: And when you have a signal travelling through a feedback loop it alters the timing of the signal subtly and complicates transient recovery and clipping behaviour, like when a signal is out of phase.

That's why lower power is usually used with open loops because then you don't get any of the above problems, just a clean signal and lightning fast transients.


----------



## SonicTrance (Aug 8, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Hi Tomas, can you explain why only EL11 have a switchable feedback and not 6SL7 and then only in UL mode. What would feedback do?


We added the 6SL7 so you have the opportunity for more gain. If we also have feedback on the 6SL7 we loose a lot of that gain. Feedback is also not needed for headphone listening as the output power will be so low that THD is low enough already.
When listening through speakers and pushing the amp in UL mode (UL mode has higher gain and distortion), with EL11's, you'll cut the THD in half when feedback is on.
So, to sum up. I'd use EL11's, with or without feedback for headphones and speakers and 6SL7 only in triode mode for headphones. 
But, I encourage you to try different things


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks Tomas for that explanation.. I look forward to playing around with the feedback switch when using EL11. Thanks Baron for the explanation too.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Thanks Tomas for that explanation.. I look forward to playing around with the feedback switch when using EL11. Thanks Baron for the explanation too.


Been a while since I rolled any 6SL7's, but these were in my 'preferred stash' box so I must have liked them at some point.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Been a while since I rolled any 6SL7's, but these were in my 'preferred stash' box so I must have liked them at some point.


Yep, I always like the RCA's, I have RCA power tubes now, not so much the Sylvanias. Brimars were the most euphonic I have ever tried! I can't see if  yours are the cylindrical plates, mine were with the gold speckled brown base.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Been a while since I rolled any 6SL7's, but these were in my 'preferred stash' box so I must have liked them at some point.



Since you don't roll them, you might as well send them to me.  I have GE 5691 red base, Tung Sol 6SU7gty brown base and the Brimar red letterings just like yours except mine the red paint is a bit faint. I need to repaint it.  

Ah then there's the pair of blood sucking Amperes 6SL7 with silver plates. SO yeah I'm expanding my 6SL7 and 6SN7 but it takes time. The Pyramids were not build in one day.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Yep, I always like the RCA's, I have RCA power tubes now, not so much the Sylvanias. Brimars were the most euphonic I have ever tried! I can't see if  yours are the cylindrical plates, mine were with the gold speckled brown base.



This is my Brimar. Are these the most euphonic you've ever tried. If it is, I'll put them in the safe under lock and key.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> This will be going into one of your (many) future amps: the KT-6900. At least it turns into a triode at some point along the way.



I was thinking this. So cool and it's a GE. Maximum plate dissipation rating of 400 watts.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I was thinking this. So cool and it's a GE. Maximum plate dissipation rating of 400 watts.


LOL!  At 14.5 amps of current draw on the heater, you'd need a pair of dedicated 20 amp circuits.  Unless of course you planned on a true Mononoid amp, then one 20 amp-er would be enough.


----------



## UntilThen

Reinstated the turntable. Gonna play my vinyls.  Chameleon getting to me on Friday by road courier TNT. Do you know what TNT stands for? No news on Odyssey yet.

Pop and crackles don't exists in my vocabulary. That's how clean my LPs and stylus are.


----------



## UntilThen

This is my spare turntable, a gift from the lovely wife 4 or 5 years ago. A Denon DP300f with a Ortofon 2M blue cartridge installed about 3 months ago. My main Rega RP8 is in Sydney. Lockdown means I can't get it but this Denon that still looks like new, sound great playing Pink Floyd 'Dark Side of the Moon', one of my favorite album of all time. The album is new. 

My opinion is vinyl sound better than digital. Any time, any day. Sorry Yggdrasil. That's the way it is.


----------



## Dogmatrix

UntilThen said:


> Reinstated the turntable. Gonna play my vinyls.  Chameleon getting to me on Friday by road courier TNT. Do you know what TNT stands for? No news on Odyssey yet.
> 
> Pop and crackles don't exists in my vocabulary. That's how clean my LPs and stylus are.


TNT was founded by Ken Thomas in 1946 with one International truck as KW Thomas Transport, being renamed Thomas Nationwide Transport in 1958. In January 1962 it was listed on the Sydney Stock Exchange


----------



## UntilThen

There's something so right about listening to this iconic album on vinyl and together with Oblivion and He1000se, it's electrifying. Tomas tells me he's making a couple of Oblivion next. To the new owners, you're about to experience the wonders of MrCurwen's design.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

UntilThen said:


> Tomas tells me he's making a couple of Oblivion next. To the new owners, you're about to experience the wonders of MrCurwen's design.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> There's something so right about listening to this iconic album on vinyl and together with Oblivion and He1000se, it's electrifying. Tomas tells me he's making a couple of Oblivion next. To the new owners, you're about to experience the wonders of MrCurwen's design.


I spot my most favorite album in the photo


----------



## OctavianH

TheMiddleSky said:


>


Aha, so you are one of them. Let's catch the others


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> This is my Brimar. Are these the most euphonic you've ever tried. If it is, I'll put them in the safe under lock and key.


No it was these:







.... and I've just seen the price £225 each! I had about 5 pairs of these and sold them for about a tenth of that.. sheeesh .

I compared them to the TS 6SL7 and felt they were just too in your face for me so I kept the TS which are also a tad euphonic but a better presentation IMO.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 9, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> sound great playing Pink Floyd 'Dark Side of the Moon', one of my favorite album of all time.


That's my neighbour's favourite too, he's always going on about it! I like Pulse and The Division Bell.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


>



I'm delighted. You have a lot of nice headphones and you've been through a lot of gear. Would love to hear your thoughts.

In the quiet of the morning at 5:00 am, I'm listening to Pink Floyd 'Endless River'. This is an instrumental, quiet album and in this setup I get all the details and sweetness. Oblivion will stay in my collection of amps because it's unique in tone and looks. Best of all you don't need to spend on tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> No it was these:





baronbeehive said:


> .... and I've just seen the price £225 each! I had about 5 pairs of these and sold them for about a tenth of that.. sheeesh .
> 
> I compared them to the TS 6SL7 and felt they were just too in your face for me so I kept the TS which are also a tad euphonic but a better presentation IMO.



Ah those... they are nothing. Try this. They are cheeeep.  

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/313557506902?hash=item49017bdb56:g:s8QAAOSwb-pgvhCW&frcectupt=true

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/384160515884?hash=item5971c0472c:g:09MAAOSw0JVgm-wE&frcectupt=true


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> That's my neighbour's favourite too, he's always going on about it! I like Pulse and The Division Bell.



That would make your neighbour, you and I, kinsman. I have several of Pink Floyd's albums, all new, bought a few years ago. I miss buying the Pulse dammit. I will have to get it. Then I have to get Rolling Stones. Maybe I should spend on vinyls instead of tubes.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Ah those... they are nothing. Try this. They are cheeeep.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/313557506902?hash=item49017bdb56:g:s8QAAOSwb-pgvhCW&frcectupt=true
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/384160515884?hash=item5971c0472c:g:09MAAOSw0JVgm-wE&frcectupt=true


Oh WOW, the fabled black glass Brimars, I've never seen them that close before!


----------



## baronbeehive

@UntilThen this is a fantastic concert too, Earl Court:


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Oh WOW, the fabled black glass Brimars, I've never seen them that close before!



Yeah riiiight !!! One of them is more expensive than the pair of GEC KT88 NOS NIOB ( New In Original Box ) that I'm going to buy. Go figure !!!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> @UntilThen this is a fantastic concert too, Earl Court:



And I'm going to listen to it from my Court. When Odyssey and Chameleon comes, there might just be space for 2 more amps but Destiny won't fit in the lower shelves because those 300b tubes are too tall ! So Destiny will have to go on the bench.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> @UntilThen this is a fantastic concert too, Earl Court:



This is very good even from my Youtube Premium. I can't find it on my Roon / Tidal or Apple Music.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 9, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> This is very good even from my Youtube Premium. I can't find it on my Roon / Tidal or Apple Music.


Yep, I'm not sure if you will find it on stream, I think it was the basis for the Pulse album.

It is quite a spectacle, the backing singers in perfect unison, and the additional guitarist gives Dave Gilmour a run for his money!


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Aug 9, 2021)

Just realized I posted in the wrong thread LOL whoops


----------



## UntilThen

Very nice Keenan. Meters look pretty cool and I see you have Amperex tubes. 😀


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Very nice Keenan. Meters look pretty cool and I see you have Amperex tubes. 😀





L0rdGwyn said:


> I was totally duped by the photos on the eBay listing, these are totally GE manufactured LOL NOOO!!!  Oh well, they are for testing anyway, and dirt cheap.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Just realized I posted in the wrong thread LOL whoops



LOL that’s alright the more the merrier 😀

So what tubes did you get if it’s not those in the photos. Can you post pictures of the actual tubes you got.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> LOL that’s alright the more the merrier 😀
> 
> So what tubes did you get if it’s not those in the photos. Can you post pictures of the actual tubes you got.



Those are the ones!!!  They are labeled Amperex but have the glass etching of GE made tubes, which the picture did not show, sad.  It's okay though, I have RCAs on the way to make everything better.


----------



## triod750

L0rdGwyn said:


> Those are the ones!!!  They are labeled Amperex but have the glass etching of GE made tubes, which the picture did not show, sad.  It's okay though, I have RCAs on the way to make everything better.


You know to whom you should send those GE tubes, don't you?


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> This is my Brimar. Are these the most euphonic you've ever tried. If it is, I'll put them in the safe under lock and key.


Smooth & round plates were always the best I tried.

The plates with edges were very good also, just with less of their "majic".

Also, my limited experience with russian tubes always showed amazing clarity over other tubes. 

But yeah, those european tubes always had great character sound.
👍


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> I spot my most favorite album in the photo


I don't see Leif Garrett's Greatest Hits in the photo.  Maybe @UntilThen edited it??


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I don't see Leif Garrett's Greatest Hits in the photo.  Maybe @UntilThen edited it??



I’ll edit Rick Astley for you.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> I don't see Leif Garrett's Greatest Hits in the photo.  Maybe @UntilThen edited it??


Had to google that one... sigh. Bill, joking and fooling around can only go so far...


----------



## UntilThen

Today is Tuesday. That's one day closer to the arrival of the tube amps. Just so loving listening through vinyl now because even with an entry level turntable and 2M Blue cartridge gives a different level of SQ to the music. Notes just pop out at you. It's alive ! Must bring the RP8 here. Tonight listening to another new LP. New as in bought new and kept new.  He1000se pairing with Oblivion is nigh perfect.


----------



## UntilThen

Another LP before dinner. This is Melody Gardot - Currency of Man. I only buy LPs that I really like and this is one of them. Now using LCD4. Just as magical with Oblivion.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I’ll edit Rick Astley for you.


My neighbour's other favourite .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> My neighbour's other favourite .



Well let me play it for your neighbour and Bcowen then. One billion viewers can't be wrong.  

You can tell I'm getting restless waiting for the amps to arrive.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Well let me play it for your neighbour and Bcowen then. One billion viewers can't be wrong.
> 
> You can tell I'm getting restless waiting for the amps to arrive.



He's here as we speak, can't contain himself!

That's another day to cross out on the calendar .


----------



## UntilThen

While waiting, there are other interesting things that keep me occupied. The pair of gorgeous looking Philips Miniwatt EL11 got send to the wrong address and will be redirected now. Eric emailed me that Chameleon is packed and ready for pick up on Thurs. It's big and heavy and I get a step down transformer because it's 120v... and also a pair of KT150 which I will test out in Chameleon and Odyssey.  

I might also be receiving my GE and Mullard 5u4g rectifiers today. Oh @gibosi , is this Miniwatt 5u4g any good?


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> While waiting, there are other interesting things that keep me occupied. The pair of gorgeous looking Philips Miniwatt EL11 got send to the wrong address and will be redirected now. Eric emailed me that Chameleon is packed and ready for pick up on Thurs. It's big and heavy and I get a step down transformer because it's 120v... and also a pair of KT150 which I will test out in Chameleon and Odyssey.
> 
> I might also be receiving my GE and Mullard 5u4g rectifiers today. Oh @gibosi , is this Miniwatt 5u4g any good?



Can't say. And in fact, I have never seen a 5U4G manufactured by Philips in Europe. So it's not clear to me who actually manufactured this tube. Worse, the picture doesn't allow close examination of the construction. It may well be a Mullard FW4/500 on an octal base or maybe even a Sylvania, but again, I just can't say.


----------



## UntilThen

I'll wait for my Mullard 5u4g to arrive before buying that Miniwatt. I haven't seen the Mullard yet but if it looks like this one from Langrex, it would be interesting. I got it for $80 and Langrex is selling it for 220 pounds.


----------



## john2000

Anyone here compare it to elekit tu8800?


----------



## UntilThen

john2000 said:


> Anyone here compare it to elekit tu8800?



I have Oblivion and Elekit TU 8200. I will give my thoughts on those 2 amps this evening after work.


----------



## UntilThen

Yeehaa, Odyssey has arrived at Brisbane International Airport awaiting clearance.


----------



## john2000

UntilThen said:


> I have Oblivion and Elekit TU 8200. I will give my thoughts on those 2 amps this evening after work.


Appreciate it!


----------



## UntilThen

It’s all happening. Chameleon arriving Friday. Odyssey maybe early next week. Awaiting custom clearance now. Abyss 1266 Phi TC coming next week for my trial. Excitement overload.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> It’s all happening. Chameleon arriving Friday. Odyssey maybe early next week. Awaiting custom clearance now. Abyss 1266 Phi TC coming next week for my trial. Excitement overload.


Fun times ahead!


----------



## UntilThen

UntilThen said:


> I have Oblivion and Elekit TU 8200. I will give my thoughts on those 2 amps this evening after work.



I'll keep this short as I've talk about this many times. Elekit TU-8200 is a very enjoyable amp with great tube tone. All you have to do is use a pair of Psvane 12au7 and a pair of NOS Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 and this tube amp has the berocca bounce. It's lively, articulate and never sluggish or boring. I would have been happy to live with just this amp but for the fact that the other 2 amps are star performers. 

Oblivion has all of that and a lovely wide soundstage, spreading out the musicians and instruments separation is first class. Details abound and the longer I use this amp, the better the tube tone sound. I still marvel at how well it pairs with He1000se. LCD4 sounds great with it but I just prefer He1000se when driven by this amp.

So that's it. That's all I will say for now because my mind is on a lot of other things. On Chameleon, Odyssey and Abyss arrival. At normal times, the arrival of any of these would have been sufficient but these are all now coming together. I've just spoken to my friend who is sending me the demo pair of Abyss 1266 TC. All I want to do is get my hands on Odyssey and fire it up with the Berlin tubes and trigger off top gun but oh no, Abyss and Chameleon has to gate crash the party. It's ok ! I can handle it. Just need a bottle of vodka.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Abyss and Chameleon has to gate crash the party. It's ok ! I can handle it. Just need a bottle of vodka.


Hey even Rick Astley sounds good after a bottle of vodka or two 🥴.

Apologies to Rick Astley fans everywhere.


----------



## baronbeehive

@UntilThen lets hope the Odyssey makes it through customs 😳.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Hey even Rick Astley sounds good after a bottle of vodka or two 🥴.
> 
> Apologies to Rick Astley fans everywhere.



That's one billion viewers descending upon you with knives and forks, ready to carve you up like medium rare steak. Then wash it down with vodka.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> @UntilThen lets hope the Odyssey makes it through customs 😳.



Customs might be enjoying it now. I just hope they read the manual before operating it. There's a lot of things you can't do, like changing the triode / UL mode without powering off the amp.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> That's one billion viewers descending upon you with knives and forks, ready to carve you up like medium rare steak. Then wash it down with vodka.


I was hoping people had forgotten who Rick Astley was!

I will have to stay in my log cabin in the wilderness until the heat dies down.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I was hoping people had forgotten who Rick Astley was!
> 
> I will have to stay in my log cabin in the wilderness until the heat dies down.



Unfortunately, Bcowen has twittered your log cabin address, right down to the co-ordinates.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 11, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Unfortunately, Bcowen has twittered your log cabin address, right down to the co-ordinates.


   ..!!!

What a great singer that Rick Astley is you know lol.

Edit: No wonder he has a billion fans, a *billion and one* actually.


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> I'll wait for my Mullard 5u4g to arrive before buying that Miniwatt. I haven't seen the Mullard yet but if it looks like this one from Langrex, it would be interesting. I got it for $80 and Langrex is selling it for 220 pounds.



This "Mullard 5U4G" was actually manufactured by British Tungsram at their Tottenham factory. Notice the unique double top mica. Philips acquired Tungsram in the mid-1950's and put it under Mullard management, thus the Mullard labeling.

It definitely sounds different, a bit more "delicate" I might say, than a "Mullard 5U4G" manufactured in one of Mullard's own factories. Not bad, just different.


----------



## UntilThen

Interesting info Ken. Knowing where tubes are made and when, makes tube collection more interesting. Who would have known that a rectifier whose main function is converting ac to dc, would have a significant change in the resultant tone when you roll rectifiers.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> ..!!!
> 
> What a great singer that Rick Astley is you know lol.
> 
> Edit: No wonder he has a billion fans, a *billion and one* actually.


Nice try, but too late.  I've already pilfered most of the tubes you had stashed at the log cabin.  I left the GE's though.  I'm not heartless.  Or am I?


----------



## UntilThen

The first to arrive are these Philips Miniwatt EL11, in perfect new condition like they have just roll off the assembly line. These have the date of 10th March 1969 on the box. My thanks to @rollinbr for helping me to get them. I hope they are quiet but I will only know when I roll them in Odyssey.

These tubes remind me very much of the Philips Miniwatt EL3N. Same box and packaging.


----------



## LoryWiv

baronbeehive said:


> Hey even Rick Astley sounds good *after a bottle of vodka* or two 🥴.
> 
> Apologies to Rick Astley fans everywhere.


Or you might get him confused with Rick Springfield.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> The first to arrive are these Philips Miniwatt EL11, in perfect new condition like they have just roll off the assembly line. These have the date of 10th March 1969 on the box. My thanks to @rollinbr for helping me to get them. I hope they are quiet but I will only know when I roll them in Odyssey.
> 
> These tubes remind me very much of the Philips Miniwatt EL3N. Same box and packaging.


I must agree those appear pristine, and are quite handsome Look forward to your sound impressions, Matt.


----------



## UntilThen

A sad turn of events. We go into lockdown as from today for 7 days. Not sure about getting Odyssey and Chameleon now. ... and Abyss.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> A sad turn of events. We go into lockdown as from today for 7 days. Not sure about getting Odyssey and Chameleon now. ... and Abyss.


Really? That's unfortunate


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Really? That's unfortunate



Yup. Delivery will still go ahead but there will be delays that's for sure.


----------



## UntilThen

Eric reckons Chameleon will still get to me tomorrow. So there is hope that I will see Odyssey soon.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> The first to arrive are these Philips Miniwatt EL11, in perfect new condition like they have just roll off the assembly line. These have the date of 10th March 1969 on the box. My thanks to @rollinbr for helping me to get them. I hope they are quiet but I will only know when I roll them in Odyssey.
> 
> These tubes remind me very much of the Philips Miniwatt EL3N. Same box and packaging.


These tubes are going to sound leaps and bounds better in your new amp than when used in the OTL.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> These tubes are going to sound leaps and bounds better in your new amp than when used in the OTL.



Oh yeah that's for sure. They are specially configured as drivers in Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

Getting Yamamoto Y8A sockets for EL11 is a luxury but it has to be done.  The EL11s are given special treatment here.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Getting Yamamoto Y8A sockets for EL11 is a luxury but it has to be done.  The EL11s are given special treatment here.


Those were very nice sockets indeed! Pricey, but good!


----------



## UntilThen

I had to decide between GEC L63 or Siemens EL11 as drivers. Not an easy decision but I was steered towards EL11 by Tomas because I already have many pairs of it and also because of Berlin


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> The first to arrive are these Philips Miniwatt EL11, in perfect new condition like they have just roll off the assembly line. These have the date of 10th March 1969 on the box. My thanks to @rollinbr for helping me to get them. I hope they are quiet but I will only know when I roll them in Odyssey.
> 
> These tubes remind me very much of the Philips Miniwatt EL3N. Same box and packaging.



From my experience, most Philips EL11 were actually manufactured by Loewe Opta in Berlin. Loewe Opta was acquired by Philips in the mid 1950's so there may well be a "Berlin" connection. 

Looking at the bottom of mine, the production code is MX1 G1F, where G is the factory symbol for Loewe Opta.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> From my experience, most Philips EL11 were actually manufactured by Loewe Opta in Berlin. Loewe Opta was acquired by Philips in the mid 1950's so there may well be a "Berlin" connection.
> 
> Looking at the bottom of mine, the production code is MX1 G1F, where G is the factory symbol for Loewe Opta.



Unfortunately I can only make out the letters MX.. on mine. the rest fades off. These tubes have very thin glass, not in the same league as Bendix 6080wb but I love how these Berlin tubes sound.  

That said, Odyssey built had certain objectives. One of them is to make sure the EL11 sound their best with respect to getting the operating points right. They are the primary drivers in Odyssey but Tomas reckons that the 6SL7 sound great in Odyssey too. When I ask which sounded better, he said that's left for me to find out.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm rather amused looking at the wordings on this 6FD7 driver tubes for my 300b amp. Said 'Guaranteed for 5 years'.  Never seen any other tube manufacturer guaranteeing their tubes for 5 years.


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> Unfortunately I can only make out the letters MX.. on mine. the rest fades off. These tubes have very thin glass, not in the same league as Bendix 6080wb but I love how these Berlin tubes sound.
> 
> That said, Odyssey built had certain objectives. One of them is to make sure the EL11 sound their best with respect to getting the operating points right. They are the primary drivers in Odyssey but Tomas reckons that the 6SL7 sound great in Odyssey too. When I ask which sounded better, he said that's left for me to find out.



MX indicates EL11. MS indicates EL3N

The color of the letters might be a clue. Loewe Opta used white.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> MX indicates EL11. MS indicates EL3N
> 
> The color of the letters might be a clue. Loewe Opta used white.



Mine is black.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh Chameleon is in Canberra depot at 6:17 am. Should be at my place today.


----------



## UntilThen

Omg Odyssey is at ACT Hume 1:44am. Which one gets here first? It's a race.


----------



## rollinbr

UntilThen said:


> Oh Chameleon is in Canberra depot at 6:17 am. Should be at my place today.





UntilThen said:


> Omg Odyssey is at ACT Hume 1:44am. Which one gets here first? It's a race.


They are going to arrive at the same time! Different delivery trucks but same time! Since your lockdown started at 5 PM yesterday, Thursday in Canberra, it is interesting to see what is deemed as essential services. Packages and package delivery is essential. Music most definitely makes the lockdown tolerable!


----------



## UntilThen

I won't have time for breakfast, lunch and dinner. No time to shower. It's all hands on deck.


----------



## UntilThen

Chameleon arrived ! Unboxing.


----------



## UntilThen

There we go ... KT150 tubes and step down transformer.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> The first to arrive are these Philips Miniwatt EL11, in perfect new condition like they have just roll off the assembly line. These have the date of 10th March 1969 on the box. My thanks to @rollinbr for helping me to get them. I hope they are quiet but I will only know when I roll them in Odyssey.
> 
> These tubes remind me very much of the Philips Miniwatt EL3N. Same box and packaging.


Nice!!!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I had to decide between GEC L63 or Siemens EL11 as drivers. Not an easy decision but I was steered towards EL11 by Tomas because I already have many pairs of it and also because of Berlin


Perhaps a good choice.  I haven't heard the EL 11's, but I have some L63's that I've tried really hard to love but can't get beyond just liking them. May be a different story in another amp though...


----------



## UntilThen

I have email confimation that Odyssey is arriving today.


----------



## UntilThen

Houston, we've music and it's sounding good from the get go.

Guinea pig tubes are Sylvania 6FD7, RFT EL34 and Sittard GZ34.

All with socket savers. This amp is 120v so is running with a step down transformer.


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> Mine is black.



WIRAG (Wiener Radio Werke) located in Vienna, another Philips subsidiary, typically used black.


----------



## UntilThen

Very early first impressions of Chameleon:-

. I'm jealous because it's sounding better than Destiny with LCD4.
. width and depth of soundstage is as wide as Destiny but it's the height that makes it special.
. bass is on holy ground. The thump on the chest makes me grin and this is with EL34.


----------



## UntilThen

Just found out that I've been listening in triode mode and it's already making the 85dB 5 ohms Axis Voicebox S sing brilliantly. Like Odyssey, I need to power off the amp before changing triode / UL mode.

Odyssey should be here anytime.


----------



## UntilThen

Finally Odyssey is back home.... after a very long journey. Now for the unboxing.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Finally Odyssey is back home.... after a very long journey. Now for the unboxing.


Nice box.  And I approve of the color choice for the smiley face.


----------



## UntilThen

The unboxing begins...   

Double box. Very well packed.


There's half of Odyssey shown.


and fully exposed.


----------



## UntilThen

Managed to get it out of the box. It's heavy ! Heavier than Chameleon.... according to my arms.



The only time I'll take a picture of the bottom. Solid feet.


and a picture of the back before I flip it around.


Now to read the manual before I insert the tubes and power it on. A small hitch. My 5u4g rectifiers only arrived next week. Can I use the EL12 spez with Mullard GZ34 or GZ32, Tomas? If not then I'll kick start with KT88, followed by EL34, 6550, etc.


----------



## UntilThen

A picture of Odyssey before powering it up and blowing it up. 

In the drivers seat, Siemens EL11 and Brimar 6SL7 red letters and Psvane KT88 Tii for powers, with a Mullard GZ34 metal base.


----------



## UntilThen

Power switch on and meters at 65 mA. It's beautiful. Fortunately I'm decently clothed because this thing is like a mirror. I'm astonished that the Sowter output transformers is about the same size of the Hammond mains transformer and it's hard to find a better match looks wise. The volume knob is heavy and smooth. It's solid metal and so are the other knobs. The chassis is nice and cold to the touch. I'll let it warm up before playing Berlin.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> I won't have time for breakfast, lunch and dinner. No time to shower. It's all hands ears on deck.


Fixed it for you! As one who's been following your "Odyssey" on this thread, I am vicariously excited for you and looking forward to impressions!


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> A picture of Odyssey before powering it up and blowing it up.
> 
> In the drivers seat, Siemens EL11 and Brimar 6SL7 red letters and Psvane KT88 Tii for powers, with a Mullard GZ34 metal base.


One word: Gorgeous!!!

OK one more: Congrats!!!


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Can I use the EL12 spez with Mullard GZ34 or GZ32, Tomas?


Not recommended! You'll run the EL12sp out of spec with too high anode voltage. It'll still work but the tube won't last very long.

I'm glad Odyssey seems to arrived safely!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Not recommended! You'll run the EL12sp out of spec with too high anode voltage. It'll still work but the tube won't last very long.
> 
> I'm glad Odyssey seems to arrived safely!



Thanks. I will not run EL12 spez yet then. Yes very glad that Odyssey arrived safely and the initial listen was more than impressive. I haven't heard LCD4 sound better. Slam and punch took on a different meaning with Odyssey ! Another picture while I spend the weekend enjoying music !


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Thanks. I will not run EL12 spez yet then. Yes very glad that Odyssey arrived safely and the initial listen was more than impressive. I haven't heard LCD4 sound better. Slam and punch took on a different meaning with Odyssey ! Another picture while I spend the weekend enjoying music !


I'm glad to hear that, Matt! Enjoy the music!


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


>


Incredible picture, however, I would put Elekit 8200 under Yggdrasil just to have a rack for silver stuff


----------



## UntilThen

That is not an incredible picture. THIS is an incredible picture.   Very surprised that my iPhone 11 Pro Max can capture such a picture.

I've listen to a lot more songs since this morning but I believe the amp will perform much better with more hours and days in. As it is though, I am thoroughly thrilled. I have good sounding amps on that rack but Odyssey will obliterate them. I've played around with using 6SL7 or EL11 as drivers. Gone from triode to UL mode. Tried both He1000se and LCD4 with it and also both my Axis Voicebox S and Boston speakers.

When I ask Tomas to build me Odyssey, I've some specific criteria :-

1. I want the high frequencies to be extended, clear, sweet but not sibilant.
2. I want the bass to have impact but at the same time tight and not flabby.
3. I want the mids to be not recessed, not too forward but in keeping with the highs and the lows. In other words I want the whole frequency spectrum to be balance and thrill me.
4. I need the amp to be quiet, with black background.
5. I want a tube tone that is unmistakably a tube tone but not too tubey. 
6. I want the width, depth and height of soundstage to be great. 
7. I want an amp that will give me many variations of tone when I change tubes.
8. Lastly I want the sockets to be a joy to change tubes and these Yamamotos didn't disappoint. It's incredibly smooth. It's neither too tight or too loose. 

Odyssey has checked all these boxes even at this early stage. I believe Tomas has run it in for 2 days. I'm going to be putting a lot more in and then give an impression. By which time, another headphone, Abyss would have arrived.

I want to thank Tomas. Odyssey has surpassed my expectations even at this early stage. It is money well spent and it looks so much better in real life than in pictures.


----------



## UntilThen

The picture that I forgot to post.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Power switch on and meters at 65 mA. It's beautiful. Fortunately I'm decently clothed because this thing is like a mirror. I'm astonished that the Sowter output transformers is about the same size of the Hammond mains transformer and it's hard to find a better match looks wise. The volume knob is heavy and smooth. It's solid metal and so are the other knobs. The chassis is nice and cold to the touch. I'll let it warm up before playing Berlin.


Glad it arrived safely.....enjoy Matt


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> The picture that I forgot to post.


Beautiful pic, Matt!


----------



## UntilThen

What you have done with Odyssey's tone is even more beautiful. I don't know how you do it but you did it. He1000se has da bass now. I mean it had it before but now it's just drop dead gorgeous. The amp is so responsive to tube changes. I've only change the rectifier to Mullard GZ32 and the driver to GE 5691. Immediately the tone has gone from near neutral to slightly warm and euphonic. It's the drum kicks that will move you. If you have a weak heart , it might be the last song for you.  

This amp is powerful no doubt about it but it's power in control. The way it's powering the HiFiMan is pure refinement. With LCD4, it's bass intoxication. I love Auris Nirvana driving LCD4 but Odyssey will make you forget all that you've heard before.

Playing an old favorite song - War On Drugs 'Pain'. Phew, it's ecstasy.


----------



## UntilThen

The amp is cool to the touch even after 6 hours. The only part that is hot are the tubes and the Hammond mains transformer. Even the Sowter output transformers are cool to the touch. The chassis is cool.  

Listening to Metallica 'Nothing Else Matters' now. I'm sure it's the Sowter irons contributing to the weight in the tone but the top end is so clear. It's not just about the bass. The mids on fire. I've not heard anything like it. 

'Enter The Sandman' came on .....


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> The picture that I forgot to post.



Nice pic!  Looks great, congrats!


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Nice pic!  Looks great, congrats!



Thanks Keenan ! I spend so many hours listening last night that I had to stop and go to bed. Resume again this early morning at 2am  Must have slept no more than 4 hours.

It took me a few secs to capture Odyssey in that picture. Well maybe more than a few secs. I had to darken the room and hold my iPhone steady. Michelangelo took 2 years to complete the statue of David. I reckon I'm better. 

The truth is the amp next to it (Chameleon) sound bloody amazing too but it's more relaxed and has a palatable tone while Odyssey has a ring of audiophile quality to it's tone. It's picking out musical notes like Yuja Wang does to her pieces. Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1, Op. 23 - simply brilliant.
​


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> The picture that I forgot to post.


Suitable for framing! A home run visually and (I trust) sonically!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Thanks Keenan ! I spend so many hours listening last night that I had to stop and go to bed. Resume again this early morning at 2am  Must have slept no more than 4 hours.
> 
> It took me a few secs to capture Odyssey in that picture. Well maybe more than a few secs. I had to darken the room and hold my iPhone steady. Michelangelo took 2 years to complete the statue of David. I reckon I'm better.
> 
> ...


 
Sounds like a good problem!  It is nice to have choices in your amplifiers.  Is the Chameleon on loan or a permanent addition to the collection?

Yuja Wang sometimes performs with my hometown Cleveland Orchestra.  I will be seeing them this weekend (without Wang), Shostakovich Piano Concerto No. 1 and Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 4


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Suitable for framing! A home run visually and (I trust) sonically!



You have no idea. Sonically it's better than Yuja Wang. Visually too.    



L0rdGwyn said:


> Sounds like a good problem!  It is nice to have choices in your amplifiers.  Is the Chameleon on loan or a permanent addition to the collection?
> 
> Yuja Wang sometimes performs with my hometown Cleveland Orchestra.  I will be seeing them this weekend (without Wang), Shostakovich Piano Concerto No. 1 and Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 4



Chameleon goes to USA after I am done testing it. Both builder and buyer trust my ears.... for some reasons. I off course trust my own ears.  Beck's 'Morning Phase' album sounded hauntingly beautiful this early morning.

A switch to EL34 - Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 and I marvel at the tone this amp is dishing out.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> You have no idea. Sonically it's better than Yuja Wang. Visually too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Does one of the front switches change from EL11 to 6SL7 gain stage?  Do you prefer one or the other so far?

Perhaps it is the Sowter transformer magic.  I am using Sowter once more in my DAC but I am trying some different output transformers next from the good ol' US of A.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Does one of the front switches change from EL11 to 6SL7 gain stage?  Do you prefer one or the other so far?
> 
> Perhaps it is the Sowter transformer magic.  I am using Sowter once more in my DAC but I am trying some different output transformers next from the good ol' US of A.



The 2 front switches are 1) To the left of the volume knob is the speaker on/off switch. 2) To the right of the volume knob is the impedance switch. The EL11 or 6SL7 switch is the same type of rotary knob at the back of the chassis. I'm liking both EL11 and 6SL7 now. I can hear the difference but at this point in time, it's very hard to pick a favorite. The EL11 certainly didn't disappoint. It's just an incredible tone. I think I'm finally hearing EL11 the way it should be. 

I totally agree with you on the Sowter transformers magic. This amp can sound very delicate on the soft passages but when the crescendos in the music comes, it's presented in a very convincing way. It's then that you feel the force. The other magic is snappy and fast transients when called for and I can feel my head bobbing away.

So what other different output transformers are you trying out next? What's from USA? Cinemag ? That's from USA and they are well known.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> The 2 front switches are 1) To the left of the volume knob is the speaker on/off switch. 2) To the right of the volume knob is the impedance switch. The EL11 or 6SL7 switch is the same type of rotary knob at the back of the chassis. I'm liking both EL11 and 6SL7 now. I can hear the difference but at this point in time, it's very hard to pick a favorite. The EL11 certainly didn't disappoint. It's just an incredible tone. I think I'm finally hearing EL11 the way it should be.
> 
> I totally agree with you on the Sowter transformers magic. This amp can sound very delicate on the soft passages but when the crescendos in the music comes, it's presented in a very convincing way. It's then that you feel the force. The other magic is snappy and fast transients when called for and I can feel my head bobbing away.
> 
> So what other different output transformers are you trying out next? What's from USA? Cinemag ? That's from USA and they are well known.



Very nice, will you try with your speakers soon?  Finally got to use your EL11.  Can the EL12 be used as powers with adapters?  No doubt the high quality iron is playing a role!  It goes a long way to use good parts.

Well I have a pair of custom output transformers from Jack Elliano of Electra-Print, they arrived in less than two weeks!  I was shocked.  Jack is very knowledgeable but interesting to order from, he must approve of your implementation or he will not sell you his transformers LOL he doesn't want them to go into bad designs!!!  Fears for his reputation, too funny.  I also have a pair of custom 1:1 interstage transformers from Dave Slagle of Intact Audio, all USA iron next time around.  I love Sowter but the lead time is becoming difficult.


----------



## UntilThen

I have briefly tried my speakers yesterday and was satisfied it drove my inefficient speakers loud in near field listening or if I push my chair back, it's almost 3 metres away. Loud and with meaty flavors. 

I can use EL12 with adapters but I have better. I will be using the EL12 spez with adapters. This is the Ferrari of the EL12s.

Interstage transformers   My 300b amp Destiny uses that. There is no way for me to verify if it's better than good capacitors but Audio Note has this to say about their interstage transformers.... Nicely written. No doubt to drive up sales lol.

_It is becoming increasingly obvious that applying transformer at every stage of an amplifier yields a great benefit in sound quality, provided off course the transformer in question is of an appropriate quality and design.

Replacing any coupling capacitor with a well designed and correctly matched driver or interstage transformer yields an almost shocking improvement in sound and should be tried to fully understand what a good wideband transformer has to offer._


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> I have briefly tried my speakers yesterday and was satisfied it drove my inefficient speakers loud in near field listening or if I push my chair back, it's almost 3 metres away. Loud and with meaty flavors.
> 
> I can use EL12 with adapters but I have better. I will be using the EL12 spez with adapters. This is the Ferrari of the EL12s.
> 
> ...



Oh yes I remember those EL12Spez with the anode caps, no longer Berlin but he is with us in spirit, living on through Odyssey.  No doubt it is written to drive up sales LOL Peter Qvortrup is an interesting guy, very strong opinions about right and wrong in audio if you read his articles.  Interstage transformers are somewhat...controversial.  It can be argued they perform worse than coupling capacitors from an objectivist standpoint, but the subjectivists say they sound better!  Who is right?  I don't know, but I want to try all the things, so next it is interstage transformers!


----------



## baronbeehive

WOW! !

Just a day further on and look what I missed!
Congrats UT, what I have heard of  your impressions so far looks very exciting, can't wait for more of the same.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 13, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> It's the drum kicks that will move you. If you have a weak heart , it might be the* last song* for you.


... the final song:


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> The picture that I forgot to post.


Hey... that looks more like the Chameleon... than... *The Chameleon*, obviously an amp with such a name should change colour to match the background 😊.


----------



## baronbeehive

Ha... no reply, I bet I know why .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Ha... no reply, I bet I know why .



Haha I went back to sleep again. Day 2 of my lockdown and day 2 with Odyssey. What irony, I'm lockdown with Odyssey but hey I've no complaints.  My desktop has tubes scattered all over. For an OCD guy like me, this is unthinkable. I'm running through my tubes with Odyssey to get a feel for the variations in tone as I switch tubes in Odyssey. I'm holding back my praise of this amp at such an early stage but there's no doubt Tomas has created something special here.

I'm glad to report that the Philips Miniwatt EL11 are whisper quiet tubes. However there's some startling sounds when powering up for the first time. It's like a brand new car groaning to life since it's first built in 1969. There's no doubt they have not been used before. Paired with the Tung Sol 6550 from the 1960s, my mind is still processing what my ears are hearing. It's good ! 

Sorry there won't be much description of tube tones for now. There ain't no time for that.... yet. By the way that 'final song' that you post is nice.  

Philips Miniwatt EL11 with Tung Sol 6550 and Mullard GZ32 rectifier.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> I don't know, but I want to try all the things, so next it is interstage transformers!



I applaud you for that. In the short time, you've build lots of very interesting tube amps. I admire the works of the tube amps builders I've had the pleasure of interacting with these couple of years. They know what they do that is for sure and it's the reason I seek out small specialist boutique tube amps builders instead of the more well known established ones.


----------



## UntilThen

Speakers test now. Both Axis and Boston sound splendid powered by Odyssey. Sweetness and punch. I typically drive the Axis monitor with my 165 watts into 8 ohms Redgum Rgi120enr and it will fill a big lounge with big speakers sound. Odyssey is driving it with 6SL7 and Tung Sol 6550 in triode mode with incredible punch. It's thoroughly enjoyable.

So in terms of power, I find these modes sound the loudest in the order specified:-

1) EL11 with KT88  in UL mode.
2) 6SL7 with KT88 in triode mode.
3) EL11 with KT88 in triode mode.

However all 3 modes fill my room easily with loads of power to spare. A speaker upgrade is in the roadmap but not until after another headphone. Which will likely be either the Abyss or Susvara.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Fortunately I'm decently *clothed* because this thing is like a mirror.


Thank you for that.  I mean, like a lot.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Thank you for that.  I mean, like a lot.


----------



## UntilThen

Chameleon in the driver's seat now. Time to give it equal attention so I can present an unbiased view.  Changing from EL34 to KT88 has tighten up the sound and I have to say I prefer KT88 over EL34 in Chameleon. The tone is amazing and the soundstage vast. Power a plenty to drive LCD4 with ease.

Tubes used are Zenith 6EM7, Genalex KT88 and Sittard GZ34 rectifier. Bryant will be pleased. I can't see how he wouldn't be because I'm pleased, extremely pleased with what I hear. 2 superb tube amps with me while I take my time to put them through their paces. 

Odyssey and Chameleon have different sonic signatures. Both have their strengths. I haven't noted any weakness .... yet. Or rather I will list them after a week or 2. It's only fair that I give these amps a lot of my time before my summations.  

Just to recap, this is Chameleon built:-

. Mains, output transformers and choke (4 units you see at the top of chassis with covers) are Super Silk from http://www.sacthailand.com/
. Another choke and 2 interstage transformers inside the chassis.
. Drivers are 6EM7 or 6FD7.
. Power tubes are KT170, KT150, KT120, KT88, KT77, KT66, EL34, 6550, 6L6, 6L6G, 6L6GA, 6L6GC, 807, etc.
. Tube rectifier is GZ34 and equivalents.
. Power tubes have manual bias settings.


----------



## leftside

I really like the look of the new amp @UntilThen. I bet it sounds amazing as well.


----------



## UntilThen

Thank you very much Leftside. I'm indeed very stoked with this amp at this point in time. Indulgently doing nothing but trying all stuff with it.  I've just roll in a 6SN7 in place of the 6SL7 and find I only need to increase volume by one notch to get equivalent loudness with 6SL7. That immediately opens up a whole world of drivers for me. Even this Psvane 6sn7 from my days of Euforia sounds great in Odyssey.

Now when your amp comes, do let me know because I want to see it and I know it will be great !


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> Now when your amp comes, do let me know because I want to see it and I know it will be great !


Just my crazy ideas that are holding it up!


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Just my crazy ideas that are holding it up!



Heh heh heh. When I started I told Tomas I want to keep it simple but it's turning out to be a tube rollers dream. Not because I ask for it but because the amp can the way Tomas builds it.

Just roll in the small tubes for the first time using a matching white adapter. This is from a pair of brand new NOS Mullard  PQ 6201 (12at7 equivalent) with gold pins. Hand in my heart when I power it on.... but all good. Beautiful tone !

12at7 gain factor = 60 and 6SL7 gain factor = 70. Next will try the 12au7 and 12ax7.... 2 hands in heart.  



This are the 12at7.


----------



## UntilThen

Accepts 12ax7 with no problems. Great tone from this medical grade Amperex Bugle Boy 12ax7 with white paint. 12ax7 gain factor is a 100. See my volume knob position driving the Boston speakers. Running this in triode mode with no feedback.




This is the 12ax7.


----------



## UntilThen

I've been asked how it sound with speaker taps.   I will try it later but with my spare HD650. Will do that later today.


----------



## UntilThen

This is my speaker taps cable of pure silver and I had it connected to the speaker terminals. It's playable and there's no noise using my LCD4. However I don't find the need as the headphone outs of Odyssey are already so powerful but it's possible if you want to use it. Definitely lots more power.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> By the way that 'final song' that you post is nice.


Yeah! I've no idea who she is other than she's Dutch but, what a voice! I came across her from some speaker reviews.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Thank you for that.  I mean, like a lot.


We must persuade UT to use a "Matt" finish on his knobs with his next amp 🤣.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> This is my speaker taps cable of pure silver and I had it connected to the speaker terminals. It's playable and there's no noise using my LCD4. However I don't find the need as the headphone outs of Odyssey are already so powerful but it's possible if you want to use it. Definitely lots more power.


Who makes the cable?


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Who makes the cable?



@Yetiman72  Owner of Destiny-2 and a friend of mine. He's been hiding lately.  Also make the silver cable for my LCD4.


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey tone transforming before my ears at the end of the 2nd day. I love the burn in process and I won't rush it because I can hear the sound changing. Tone matures and you lose the initial metallic zing. Soundstage opens up. It's like a flower bud opening up.

This is lovely tube tone with amazing clarity and weighted bass. Roll in the GEC KT66 and using Telefunken EL11 in UL mode.


----------



## OctavianH

Be careful with that GE tube, the GE inquisition will soon punish you.


----------



## Yetiman72

Odyssey looks stunning Matt your a lucky fellow, Your got Abyss coming too WOW...


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey tone transforming before my ears at the end of the 2nd day. I love the burn in process and I won't rush it because I can hear the sound changing. Tone matures and you lose the initial metallic zing. Soundstage opens up. It's like a flower bud opening up.
> 
> This is lovely tube tone with amazing clarity and weighted bass. Roll in the GEC KT66 and using Telefunken EL11 in UL mode.


Good grief, man.  Even Yamamoto sockets will wear out at some point.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> Good grief, man.  Even Yamamoto sockets will wear out at some point.



Fingers will wear out before Yamamoto sockets


----------



## UntilThen

Yetiman72 said:


> Odyssey looks stunning Matt your a lucky fellow, Your got Abyss coming too WOW...



Pity you can't come here Shane. Abyss powered by Odyssey is something I look forward. Should be great. It's tube tone done right.


----------



## whirlwind

L0rdGwyn said:


> Fingers will wear out before Yamamoto sockets


 Yeah, not enough tubes in the world to wear them out.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Fingers will wear out before Yamamoto sockets



Yamamoto sockets is a great choice even though it's expensive. However Tomas's suggestion to using Sowter transformers is pretty spot on. I don't even know the brand Sowter then. I only know Lundahl but Lundahl wouldn't do custom transformers unless the order is above 100.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Yamamoto sockets is a great choice even though it's expensive. However Tomas's suggestion to using Sowter transformers is pretty spot on. I don't even know the brand Sowter then. I only know Lundahl but Lundahl wouldn't do custom transformers unless the order is above 100.


 Got to love the custom amp builds. Your amp will last you a lifetime and you already own gobs of tubes.
Just happy listening now


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Be careful with that GE tube, the GE inquisition will soon punish you.



That GE is a special GE. I'm using it now to drive the GEC KT66. I'd recommend Odyssey wholeheartedly, even if you have to sell your cats and dogs... or sell Bcowen.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Got to love the custom amp builds. Your amp will last you a lifetime and you already own gobs of tubes.
> Just happy listening now



It's a few years in the making. I dream about Berlin for quite a while. It's no longer just Berlin. It's Odyssey now. When I heard it for the first time yesterday, I knew then that it was all worth it.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> That GE is a special GE. I'm using it now to drive the GEC KT66. I'd recommend Odyssey wholeheartedly, even if you have to sell your cats and dogs... or sell Bcowen.


Selling me would yield negative net proceeds.  Perhaps parting me out would be more lucrative.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Selling me would yield negative net proceeds.  Perhaps parting me out would be more lucrative.


I hate to tell you but he only keeps you to dig him out of the bunker.. or blame when he misses the hole for the umpteenth time 🤣.


----------



## LoryWiv

As long as we've veered slightly off topic, allow me the liberty to recommend the below album. It was recorded in DXD and if you even remotely enjoy piano and vocal jazz, the combination of Ms. Barber's phenomenal artistry and pristine, state of the art recording process should enable Odyssey and other high end gear to deliver their best:


----------



## UntilThen (Aug 14, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> As long as we've veered slightly off topic, allow me the liberty to recommend the below album. It was recorded in DXD and if you even remotely enjoy piano and vocal jazz, the combination of Ms. Barber's phenomenal artistry and pristine, state of the art recording process should enable Odyssey and other high end gear to deliver their best:



Thanks for veering off. I've heard Patricia Barber songs but this is great. On Yggdrasil > Odyssey > LCD4, I was transfixed right from the opening note. Sounded good even on Youtube. Now let me see if I can find it on Tidal.

Yup I found it on Roon / Tidal.


----------



## LoryWiv (Aug 14, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Thanks for veering off. I've heard Patricia Barber songs but this is great. On Yggdrasil > Odyssey > LCD4, I was transfixed right from the opening note. Sounded good even on Youtube. Now let me see if I can find it on Tidal.
> 
> Yup I found it on Roon / Tidal.


Sweet UT! And it get's better:


----------



## UntilThen (Aug 14, 2021)

Day 3 of Odyssey. I discovered that I can go UL mode with 6SL7 with no distortion. What a blast.

After 2 days with Odyssey, I'm getting a sense of what she can do, especially when compared to Chameleon. Chameleon has a grandiose scale. It's unbelievably grand and large in soundstage. Feels like an orchestra performing in an open prairie. The sense of spaciousness is uncanny. Odyssey also has a very wide soundstage but just not as wide as Chameleon. However Odyssey's ability to pick out notes with precision is startlingly enjoyable. With an overwhelmingly sweet and clear treble, a midrange that makes you want to sample every diva of any genres and the control and grip it has on bass and the lower register, my attention is totally fixed on Odyssey... and I have forgotten that Chameleon is sitting next to it. This is totally unfair. If I only had Chameleon here (alone), I would be transfixed listening to music but with Odyssey, I'm transformed !

Now to check myself in the mirror to see if I have become Optimus Prime.


----------



## UntilThen

The updated music room. Destiny cannot fit in the rack because the 300b tubes are too tall to fit in the lower shelves and the top shelves are occupied by higher ranking Autobots.


----------



## UntilThen

He's beautiful in any lighting.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> The updated music room. Destiny cannot fit in the rack because the 300b tubes are too tall to fit in the lower shelves and the top shelves are occupied by higher ranking Autobots.


You obviously need another rack.  

Glad to help, boss.


----------



## UntilThen

There's no room for another rack ! The shoebox of priceless tubes has to go. The CD player has to go. Schiit Eitr to be stack with Yggdrasil or I've to upgrade Yggy. Elekit probably has to go too. To make way for a Roon nuclues and a power conditioner / filter. Hopefully there's room for one more tube amp in 2023 but that has a lower priority than an Abyss or Susvara.


----------



## UntilThen (Aug 14, 2021)

Radiotron 807 in action and I love the tone of these tubes ! Can't wait to hear it in Odyssey but I must wait for 5u4g rectifier. Bryant if you are looking in, get yourself a pair of these tubes. Some nice ones in eBay of various brands. I will pass you a pair of adapters.

807 in Chameleon is just beautiful sound and looks. Those are skinny 6FD7 drivers. With a Sittard GZ34.

I've set to 50 mA to be safe. Although it can be set to 60 mA as advised by Eric.


----------



## UntilThen

Anyone can be happy with either of these 2 tube amps. It will give a run with those established names and I've heard Wa33 and Auris Nirvana. If cost is no object, then definitely Odyssey because the execution is better, in terms of quietness and tone refinement but at the same time slam. Tube tone wise they are both so good. 

Not forgetting Oblivion in the lower shelf. I had a quick listen amidst going from Odyssey to Chameleon. Oblivion still sound amazing and I love it. Bass is obviously less than Chameleon and Odyssey but Oblivion soundstage, clarity and details are outstanding. It's a great contrast with the other 2 amps.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Anyone can be happy with either of these 2 tube amps. It will give a run with those established names and I've heard Wa33 and Auris Nirvana. If cost is no object, then definitely Odyssey because the execution is better, in terms of quietness and tone refinement but at the same time slam. Tube tone wise they are both so good.
> 
> Not forgetting Oblivion in the lower shelf. I had a quick listen amidst going from Odyssey to Chameleon. Oblivion still sound amazing and I love it. Bass is obviously less than Chameleon and Odyssey but Oblivion soundstage, clarity and details are outstanding. It's a great contrast with the other 2 amps.


It is nice to have that variety. As I have said before, that variety is akin to: different seats in the same music venue for the same musical performance.


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> It is nice to have that variety. As I have said before, that variety is akin to: different seats in the same music venue for the same musical performance.


Just make sure you buy tickets to every row seats. You have to sample it at different angles.


----------



## UntilThen

Now onto speaker test. Give the headphones a break.


----------



## mordy

Congratulations on your new acquisitions!
Looking forward to hear more final impressions after the amps and tubes burn in!


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks Mordy. Chameleon has been running for a week by Eric before he send it to me. Odyssey was run in for 2 days by Tomas. Of course I will put in more hours on both tubes and amps before my summations. Right now all you're hearing is my rumblings as I go.

It's going to take a while and at this rate, lockdown might be over by the time I finish.  I don't plan to go through all my tubes because that will be done leisurely over a year. After the first week, it should be possible to suss out the amp sound signature.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Thanks Mordy. Chameleon has been running for a week by Eric before he send it to me. Odyssey was run in for 2 days by Tomas. Of course I will put in more hours on both tubes and amps before my summations. Right now all you're hearing is my rumblings as I go.
> 
> It's going to take a while and at this rate, lockdown might be over by the time I finish.  I don't plan to go through all my tubes because that will be done leisurely over a year. After the first week, it should be possible to suss out the amp sound signature.


Thanks. Maybe I missed the information, but can you you direct me to the specs for the two amps?


----------



## UntilThen

*Chameleon - KT150 set amp.*

. Mains transformer, output transformers and one choke (the 4 units on top of chassis with custom covers) are special orders from http://www.sacthailand.com/.
. Interstage transformers and another choke mounted inside chassis.
. Upgraded CMC sockets, RCA inputs and speaker outs.
. Point to point wiring.
. Drivers are 6EM7 or 6FD7 with adapters.
. Power tubes are KT**, EL34, 6550, 6L6*, 807, EL39, etc.
. GZ34 or equivalent tube rectifiers.
. Max power at 20 watts in UL mode into 8 ohms.
. 1/4 and xlr headphone outputs @ 4 ohms mount in the front panel.
. Switch for UL or triode. Speakers on / off switch. Surprisingly, there are a pair of switches for both functions and for both channels.
. I believe there is a load resistor at the headphone output. Normal practice when the amp is this powerful. You don't want your headphone drivers to fly into the pond nearby.

Price is the equivalent of a Toyota LandCruiser 200 GX Turbo-diesel. Choice of silver, gold or black front panel. Eric is nearly retirement or should I say retired but I have gotten to know him well and he trust me fully to entrust this amp to me for testing before I forward it to Bryant of USA.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> *Chameleon - KT150 set amp.*
> 
> You don't want your headphone drivers to fly into the pond nearby.


No worries.  I'll fetch them while I'm getting the golf cart out.


----------



## UntilThen (Aug 15, 2021)

*Odyssey - KT150 set amp.*

. Special order Sowter output transformers from Sowter UK.
. Hammond mains transformer. This should have been made by Sowter but Sowter decided at the last minute that they will not continue to build custom mains transformer because it's not cost effective. Mustard !
. Mundorf S/G/O coupling caps and the Nichicon MUSE cathode bypass caps.
. Yamamoto sockets
. Drivers are EL11 or 6SL7. At the design stage I wanted to be able to use both together but Tomas advised against it, saying why would you when it will add distortions.
. 6SL7 slot can also use 6SN7 or 12a*7 or any suitable double triode with suitable adapters. Such as 6N7G, 6922, etc.
. Power tubes are KT**, EL34, 6550, 6L6GC, 807, EL39, etc but not the 6L6 family because of their lower voltage.
. Rectifier is GZ34 and all your fancy pansy GEC U52, Cossor 53ku, GZ32, GZ37, 5U4G, 596, We 422 if I can find one !
. Headphone output:
8R – 6.1W
20R – 4.75W
32R – 3.1W
50R – 2W
100R – 1.1W
200R – 551mW
300R – 403mW

. Speaker output:
4R - 10.6W
8R - 14.2W

. 1 xlr input and 2 RCA inputs
. speaker outputs
. Speaker on / off switch
. Impedance switch
. Feedback on / off switch for EL11
. UL / triode mode switch.

. 1/4 and xlr headphone output.

Choice of chassis - pure sterling silver like my Odyssey  or Madagascar Ebony wood or Copper from Africa. No I lied but there's no limit to what chassis you want.

Price is the equivalent of a Lamborghini - cheapest model.

Power output quoted are in triode mode. UL will be more.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> *Chameleon - KT150 set amp.*
> 
> . Mains transformer, output transformers and one choke (the 4 units on top of chassis with custom covers) are special orders from http://www.sacthailand.com/.
> . Interstage transformers and another choke mounted inside chassis.
> ...


The price of the Toyota LandCruiser starts at $81,000.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> *Odyssey - KT150 set amp.*
> 
> . Special order Sowter output transformers from Sowter UK.
> . Hammond mains transformer. This should have been made by Sowter but Sowter decided at the last minute that they will not continue to build custom mains transformer because it's not cost effective. Mustard !
> ...


Cheapest Lamborghini starts at $211.000


----------



## UntilThen

But these are boutique amps. More precious than the Toyota and Lambos


----------



## mordy

mordy said:


> Cheapest Lamborghini starts at $211.000





UntilThen said:


> But these are boutique amps. More precious than the Toyota and Lambos


https://www.whathifi.com/us/news/focal-utopia-tournaire-are-worlds-most-expensive-headphones
Perhaps you are interested in this matching item?


----------



## UntilThen

I’m not a Focal. I’m stepping into abyss. 😀😅


----------



## UntilThen

Taking a break from Odyssey now. Climbing a hill. 😀


----------



## UntilThen

I made it !!! Soundstage is amazing here.


----------



## mordy

I thought that you get fined for going outdoors during lockdown in Australia.


----------



## UntilThen

You can exercise within 5 kms.


----------



## UntilThen

Still running through my tubes quickly to see if it works. First time listening to EL39. Tubes are new but the tone is there. Take note guys. This is a gem. Bryant get yourself a pair and the adapters. Message me if you don't know where. 

This might be even better than 807. If I have wall of fame for tubes, it's going there right now. Never mind that it's right out of the box. That bass. I'm not a bass head but this tube has the punch and depth. One of the best in this show business.

I can't wait to try it in Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

These 2 amps have killer tone ! Going through my tube boxes and I discovered I have a pair of Siemens ECC81 (12at7) NIB. These have never been use before.  

So in it goes in Odyssey. If I thought I have heard the best, I'm in for a big surprise. This tiny Siemens tubes change everything. It lift the veil from the Shuguang  KT88 thousand treasure and I've not heard my LCD4 sound so dynamic and vibrant ! Tomas in making it possible for me to use these small tubes - 12au7, 12at7 and 12ax7 has open up the myriads of tones that is possible with Odyssey. Definitely need one year to find my favorite tube combination or I may never find out. I could possibly have many favorite combinations. So be it.


----------



## baronbeehive

LoryWiv said:


> As long as we've veered slightly off topic, allow me the liberty to recommend the below album. It was recorded in DXD and if you even remotely enjoy piano and vocal jazz, the combination of Ms. Barber's phenomenal artistry and pristine, state of the art recording process should enable Odyssey and other high end gear to deliver their best:



Glad you posted this, she is my absolute favourite, I've got all the albums pretty much but didn't know about this recent release! Not only her but the musicians are phenomenal, and the record production is always superb as you say!!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Glad you posted this, she is my absolute favourite, I've got all the albums pretty much but didn't know about this recent release! Not only her but the musicians are phenomenal, and the record production is always superb as you say!!



Yes I've listen to this town several times today with all my headphones. Now I'm on HD650 powered by Odyssey. I can guarantee you that it's no longer this town. It has to be some other town.

Turning around I was shocked to see the mess. What happen to the clean desk policy?


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Definitely need one year to find my favorite tube combination or I may *never* find out.


I think *never .*



UntilThen said:


> These 2 amps have killer tone ! Going through my tube boxes and I discovered I have a pair of Siemens ECC81 (12at7) NIB. These have never been use before.
> 
> So in it goes in Odyssey. If I thought I have heard the best, I'm in for a big surprise. This tiny Siemens tubes change everything. It lift the veil from the Shuguang  KT88 thousand treasure and I've not heard my LCD4 sound so dynamic and vibrant ! Tomas in making it possible for me to use these small tubes - 12au7, 12at7 and 12ax7 has open up the myriads of tones that is possible with Odyssey.


WOW.. what a blast!

You are having way too much fun.. and now it's time for your medication .


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Tomas in making it possible for me to use these small tubes - 12au7, 12at7 and 12ax7 has open up the myriads of tones that is possible with Odyssey.


Yes, I love the 12ax7 family, haven't tried the 12au7 or 12at7, I must get on to that! I believe these tubes have surpassed the usual function in guitar amps and I have totally re-evaluated them, at first I didn't really rate them due to some comments about them in audio circles but I've got past that stage now thankfully.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> You are having way too much fun..



The weekend is almost over. 2 days pass like lightning and it was way too much fun. Now I'm winding down. I had to try Destiny again because after 2 days I've have forgotten how the 300b sound lol. 

So Chameleon temporary goes off bench and Destiny comes on. On the first song, I know why I love the 300b tone so much. When Chameleon goes, this will be my setup .... until the next craze strikes.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 15, 2021)

Just been looking for 12Ax7 tubes as you do and I've come across this from Brent Jessee of audiotubes.com who is knowledgeable and responds to enquiries:_ *"...and the tubes with blue tips that were intended for critical medical equipment."*_

Also:_* "...The Philips Miniwatt series, usually made in the same Heerlen, Holland factory that produced the Amperex Bugleboy tubes, are a great alternative to the increasingly rare Bugleboy. They are identical internally, carry the same factory code markings, and sound the same."*_

So tubes apparently were produced specially for medical uses... and had painted tips! Also the Philips Miniwatt are indistinguishable from the Bugleboy type!


----------



## triod750

baronbeehive said:


> So tubes apparently were produced specially for medical uses... and had painted tips!


Might be true but could also have been selected - just like C3gS. That would be my guess.


----------



## bcowen

triod750 said:


> Might be true but could also have been selected - just like C3gS. That would be my guess.


My guess too.  It's not like they made production runs of "medical grade" tubes -- they were likely just tested with the best ones selected. Could have been done at the factory, but I've never seen any information elsewhere to support that.  Brent Jesse has a lot of good information, but some of what he posts on his site is only his opinion rather than verifiable fact.  I could certainly be wrong about the tips being painted at the factory, but Brent Jesse is _not_ the source that would convince me otherwise.


----------



## baronbeehive

triod750 said:


> Might be true but could also have been selected - just like C3gS. That would be my guess.


Correct! I should have said they were "screened" for medical purposes, also some were marked "selected tube" on the outside to signify it's purpose.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> Still running through my tubes quickly to see if it works. First time listening to EL39. Tubes are new but the tone is there. Take note guys. This is a gem. Bryant get yourself a pair and the adapters. Message me if you don't know where.
> 
> This might be even better than 807. If I have wall of fame for tubes, it's going there right now. Never mind that it's right out of the box. That bass. I'm not a bass head but this tube has the punch and depth. One of the best in this show business.


Yes EL39 is right up there. In the same family as 4654 (same tube - different base), EL50, 4699, etc. Predecessor to EL34. I've recently found a match to a 4654K that I had. Pretty tough to find. I'll post a picture later. 807 is closer to 6L6 I think, and in my DAC and preamp I prefer the EL34 (and relations) and KT66 over the 6L6.



bcowen said:


> My guess too.  It's not like they made production runs of "medical grade" tubes -- they were likely just tested with the best ones selected. Could have been done at the factory, but I've never seen any information elsewhere to support that.  Brent Jesse has a lot of good information, but some of what he posts on his site is only his opinion rather than verifiable fact.  I could certainly be wrong about the tips being painted at the factory, but Brent Jesse is _not_ the source that would convince me otherwise.


Yes Brent is a great source of info. And also opinion  I can't fault the guy though. His website is a treasure trove of info that the most fervent tube roller can get lost in. His 12AX7 and 12AT7 sites are particularly informative, but you will be entering the blackhole of rabbit holes if you enter.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Just been looking for 12Ax7 tubes as you do



What are you using 12ax7 for? I have not been particularly fond of small tubes until now. They are small and hard to preserve the words that are painted on the tubes. However, I'm liking these small tubes tone now. There's a precision and clarity.

I wasn't specifically looking for 12ax7, I was looking at 12at7 as the gain factor is 60 which is what my mind thinks is ideal for my setup.  However I realized now that all 3 types of 12au7, 12at7 and 12ax7 are perfectly suitable in Odyssey. I don't know how Tomas set them to be compatible in Odyssey but they are.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Yes EL39 is right up there. In the same family as 4654 (same tube - different base), EL50, 4699, etc. Predecessor to EL34. I've recently found a match to a 4654K that I had. Pretty tough to find. I'll post a picture later. 807 is closer to 6L6 I think, and in my DAC and preamp I prefer the EL34 (and relations) and KT66 over the 6L6.



You have some interesting tubes there but I am trying to steer clear of paddle feet. 807 and 6L6 are indeed cousin but 807 has higher voltage. That's why I can use it in Odyssey and not 6L6. McChanson amps can use the 6L6 family and I do love the tone. However I won't say that I love it more than the other tube types. The whole range of tube types in KT**, EL**, 6550, etc are all very interesting. EL34 indeed are one of my favorite types. I am looking to purchase a pair of EL34 metal base next from my supplier.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 15, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> What are you using 12ax7 for? I have not been particularly fond of small tubes until now. They are small and hard to preserve the words that are painted on the tubes. However, I'm liking these small tubes tone now. There's a precision and clarity.


It's what I use in the baby amp, the Miniwatt, (APPJ). Yes, tone and clarity is indeed good with them. The smaller tubes and the thinner, shorter pins are said to reduce interference which the longer pins would act as aerials to attract such interference. So a lot of tube addicts prefer them.

Also I look on poor print on tubes as a good sign. It's a sign that the tubes are genuine!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> EL34 indeed are one of my favorite types. I am looking to purchase a pair of EL34 metal base next from my supplier.


I'm curious about these, as the successor to my APPJ, ie. the updated model used EL34's if I remember.


----------



## UntilThen

It's the 4th day with Odyssey now. In my correspondence with Tomas while the built was going on, I kept reminding him that I would like the amp to be very quiet with pitch black darkness especially with low impedance headphones. He had to rebuild the power supply to achieve that. Didn't specifically tell me what he actually did but that he had to rebuild the power supply and that he got it to where he was satisfied that it is quiet.

Odyssey is very quiet even with He1000se, 35 ohms. Very quiet and very clear but the bass can be thunderous when called for. I can listen to classical now because of the dynamics and the quietness in the soft passages of music. It can be very delicate and can hit very hard. Listening to blues and classic rock is a joy. Metal head fans will be delighted. It is liquid, it is wet, it can be dry, there are a myriad of tube tones from the quick run through of using different drivers and power tubes. Even changing from GZ34 to GZ32 rectifier cause a change in tone.


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> My guess too.  It's not like they made production runs of "medical grade" tubes -- they were likely just tested with the best ones selected. Could have been done at the factory, but I've never seen any information elsewhere to support that.  Brent Jesse has a lot of good information, but some of what he posts on his site is only his opinion rather than verifiable fact.  I could certainly be wrong about the tips being painted at the factory, but Brent Jesse is _not_ the source that would convince me otherwise.


So  are saying that my Sylvania labeled GE 6AK5 tube with the blue tips aren't worth more than the 99c I paid?


----------



## UntilThen

Painting the tips of my small tubes might be my next past time.


----------



## mordy (Aug 15, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> You have some interesting tubes there but I am trying to steer clear of paddle feet. 807 and 6L6 are indeed cousin but 807 has higher voltage. That's why I can use it in Odyssey and not 6L6. McChanson amps can use the 6L6 family and I do love the tone. However I won't say that I love it more than the other tube types. The whole range of tube types in KT**, EL**, 6550, etc are all very interesting. EL34 indeed are one of my favorite types. I am looking to purchase a pair of EL34 metal base next from my supplier.


You don't have to be afraid of paddle feet tubes as long as you get get good sockets - not the Chinese ones.
There is an ST type EL6 that is similar to EL12, a tubular EL6Spez  and even an EL6 Spez with an anode cap that is similar to the EL12Spez. These tubes are 1.3A and 1.2A.
https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el6.html



https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el6spez.html



https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el6spez_telefunken.html


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> I am looking to purchase a pair of EL34 metal base next from my supplier.


Telefunken or Philips? Three different getter types with the Philips - which is only of note to collectors, as I haven't found any sonic differences . My favorite EL34 are the ones made just after the metal base. These have a brown base with DD getters at the top. Made from 1957 - 1960 in the Sittard factory.


----------



## UntilThen

Those are very nice tubes but I've so many different types already. There's always room for more isn't it? I may get adapters for paddle feet to KT88 later.

I'm still trying to digest EL11 in Odyssey. They are so quiet in Odyssey now. When I use them in GOTL with adapters, there will be some slight soft noise that would bother me. It's perfect now. Dead quiet and the unmistakable tone of Telefunken EL11. Love it.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Telefunken or Philips? Three different getter types with the Philips - which is only of note to collectors, as I haven't found any sonic differences . My favorite EL34 are the ones made just after the metal base. These have a brown base with DD getters at the top. Made from 1957 - 1960 in the Sittard factory.



I believe they are Philips. I actually had the metal base and brown base with DD getters at the top put aside for me.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Painting the tips of my small tubes might be my next past time.


I'm sure you would make a better job than mordy on his tubes .


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> You have some interesting tubes there but I am trying to steer clear of *paddle feet*.


Why? Surely they would be an advantage for when your golf balls end up in the lake 🤣.

Sorry but I saw a chance to get in there before bcowen!


----------



## UntilThen

I took a picture yesterday. Love the sound of GEC KT66 with either of GE 5691 or Siemens EL11. That's Mullard GZ32 at the back.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Painting the tips of my small tubes might be my next past time.


I think a little red nail polish will look good.


baronbeehive said:


> Why? Surely they would be an advantage for when your golf balls end up in the lake 🤣.
> 
> Sorry but I saw a chance to get in there before bcowen!







baronbeehive said:


> I'm sure you would make a better job than mordy on his tubes .


Better?


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> So  are saying that my Sylvania labeled GE 6AK5 tube with the blue tips aren't worth more than the 99c I paid?


LOL!   I would never attempt to place a value on someone else's tubes.   But I _will _say that whoever painted them picked an awesome color (at least the two on the left that are a true Carolina blue).


----------



## mordy

So now we have red, white and blue colored tips - all American colors!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> What are you using 12ax7 for? I have not been particularly fond of small tubes until now. They are small and hard to preserve the words that are painted on the tubes. However, I'm liking these small tubes tone now. There's a precision and clarity.
> 
> I wasn't specifically looking for 12ax7, I was looking at 12at7 as the gain factor is 60 which is what my mind thinks is ideal for my setup.  However I realized now that all 3 types of 12au7, 12at7 and 12ax7 are perfectly suitable in Odyssey. I don't know how Tomas set them to be compatible in Odyssey but they are.


If you're looking for 12AT7's, these Footscray plant Brimars are pretty special.  Actually, very special.  I won't take credit for discovering them -- it was the guys over in the Schiit Mjolnir thread.  I ordered a couple and have to agree with them (and I'm not even much of a Brimar fanboy).

https://pulsetubestore.com/products...play-ready-to-use?_pos=3&_sid=169a59abc&_ss=r


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Why? Surely they would be an advantage for when your golf balls end up in the lake 🤣.
> 
> Sorry but I saw a chance to get in there before bcowen!


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> I think a little red nail polish will look good.
> 
> 
> 
> Better?


Western Electric tubes don't need painted tips to be special.  Just sayin'.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> If you're looking for 12AT7's, these Footscray plant Brimars are pretty special.  Actually, very special.  I won't take credit for discovering them -- it was the guys over in the Schiit Mjolnir thread.  I ordered a couple and have to agree with them (and I'm not even much of a Brimar fanboy).
> 
> https://pulsetubestore.com/products...play-ready-to-use?_pos=3&_sid=169a59abc&_ss=r



Thank you for helping to spend my money ! I have to trust you as I have trusted you with giving me the right iron or wood.  Will try this Footscray. Do they have a Bumscray?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Thank you for helping to spend my money ! I have to trust you as I have trusted you with giving me the right iron or wood.  Will try this Footscray. Do they have a Bumscray?


I'm better with tubes than golf clubs, which I fully realize isn't saying all that much.     Not sure on the Bumscray, nor do I want to discuss it further.


----------



## UntilThen

Tube amp is like golf. You choose the right tubes for the occasion. What tubes would you choose for this?


----------



## bcowen (Aug 15, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Tube amp is like golf. You choose the right tubes for the occasion. What tubes would you choose for this?



NEC's, of course.      And if I tried to move my body like that these days I'd probably break something.


----------



## UntilThen

Why NEC? I hardly see any NEC tubes.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Why NEC? I hardly see any NEC tubes.


I don't know.  But after that and the golf course pictures, I want some of whatever's in your water there.


----------



## UntilThen

I have a pair of Brimar 12au7 long plates. These are good tubes but one of them is noisy. The other one is perfect and quiet. I'm using it now in Odyssey and it's a great tone. I've now gone through all of 12au7, 12at7 and 12ax7 in Odyssey and I'm satisfied that they are splendid as drivers in the amp. Of course there are the 6SL7 and 6SN7s  .....


----------



## bcowen (Aug 15, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I have a pair of Brimar 12au7 long plates. These are good tubes but one of them is noisy. The other one is perfect and quiet. I'm using it now in Odyssey and it's a great tone. I've now gone through all of 12au7, 12at7 and 12ax7 in Odyssey and I'm satisfied that they are splendid as drivers in the amp. Of course there are the 6SL7 and 6SN7s  .....


Some guys say these 1956 Footscray (KB/FB) CV455's are extremely close to the CV4033...for less than half the price from Langrex.  I haven't tried one myself. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274128808004?hash=item3fd359a844:g:5AgAAOSwBbhg7ZkR


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey is a powerful amp but it's so quiet. With both LCD4 and He1000se, when no music is playing and the volume knob is rotated to max, there is no noise at all. Just pitch blackness. This amp will drive speakers and yet have finesse handling any headphones. 

I told Tomas that I want Odyssey to be first and foremast a headphone amp and secondly a speaker amp for tube friendly speakers. I can tick off these boxes now.


----------



## leftside (Aug 15, 2021)

One year earlier and also from the Footscray (FB) plant:
https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/12at7-cv455-kb-fb-brimar-rare-triple-mica-1956-nos-valve-tube/

These are all great 12AT7. Another favorite of mine is the Mullard 12AT7 CV455 KB/DA 1954 square getter. These are my "go to CV455". Langrex had quite a few of these in stock a few weeks ago, but when I went to look again they had all gone. He does still have the 1952 Philips welded plate which are exceptional, but starting to get pricey... but not as pricey as black plate triple GEC A2900/CV6091 or GEC B309...


----------



## leftside

bcowen said:


> Some guys say these 1956 Footscray (KB/FB) CV455's are extremely close to the CV4033...for less than half the price from Langrex.  I haven't tried one myself.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/274128808004?hash=item3fd359a844:g:5AgAAOSwBbhg7ZkR


Ah. See you already posted  Yes these are excellent. Was running them when one of my Mullards blew recently.

I have a lot of 12AT7/CV455 tubes - about 2 big boxes full. Not buying any more though - unless one dies on me. Not using the GECs any more either. Another set of tubes that have been moved to "collectors corner" due to the prices. Plenty of other good 12AT7 out there.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> GEC A2900/CV6091



Tempted.


----------



## mordy (Aug 15, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Some guys say these 1956 Footscray (KB/FB) CV455's are extremely close to the CV4033...for less than half the price from Langrex.  I haven't tried one myself.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/274128808004?hash=item3fd359a844:g:5AgAAOSwBbhg7ZkR


I am not so familiar with the 12xx7 tubes but wonder if this CV4033 with the flying leads is the same or similar to the one selling for $131 that was converted to an octal coin base:




https://www.ebay.com/itm/274043492242?hash=item3fce43d792:g:CoAAAOSwVSpdnHpe
For $9 + shipping it seems a good deal. Then, of course, you will need an octal base and have to solder in the leads.
What year is this tube from?
Here is the Footscray special edition tube:
https://pulsetubestore.com/products...play-ready-to-use?_pos=3&_sid=169a59abc&_ss=r


----------



## UntilThen

Houston, my 5U4G rectifiers have landed and that means EL12 spez, EL39 and 807 are ready to launch.  

Berlin, here we come !!!


----------



## UntilThen

Came in a Havana Cuba box and proudly GE.  



Mullard 5U4G - Made in USA ? @gibosi what's happening here?


----------



## Maxx134

baronbeehive said:


> Yes, I love the 12ax7 family, haven't tried the 12au7 or 12at7, I must get on to that!



Try the 12au7 first. 🙂
Remember in the "little dot mk6" threads, I must have rolled every 12 pin in existence (almost) on that amp.
That amp (ironically) had the "advantage"(?) of very noticable tube rolling differences, by not being "biased" in the optimal linear range.

Spent thousands rolling both 12 pin & then 6pin (with adapter), searching for that next euphoric thrill.. What a money pit! 🥲




baronbeehive said:


> Also:_* "...The Philips Miniwatt series, usually made in the same Heerlen, Holland factory that produced the Amperex Bugleboy tubes, are a great alternative to the increasingly rare Bugleboy. They are identical internally, carry the same factory code markings, and sound the same."*_


I have bugleboy & yes they are great, but I never thought to consider their sound to be very similar to the Philips miniwatt. Yet, who knows which specific tube they talking about.



bcowen said:


> My guess too. It's not like they made production runs of "medical grade" tubes --


I only ever heard "military tubes", which makes me highly doubt any company would think of using the word "medical" for making improvements.
Never even seen light blue painted tips that color. Guess you learn something every day, lol 🤥😁



UntilThen said:


> Thank you for helping to spend my money ! I have to trust you as I have trusted you with giving me the right iron or wood. Will try this Footscray. Do they have a Bumscray?


Those are fitted bases on Special Grade "Flying Leads" tubes (tubes with long Leads & no base, for military= different sound).  Custom Thermo setting Bases installed.

They probably sound very good, but being a military grade, they may also not have usual brimar sound.
Being military, the internals also look like a collaboration design, as you see triple mica design, compared to the standard version tube.



UntilThen said:


> I've now gone through all of 12au7, 12at7 and 12ax7 in Odyssey and I'm satisfied that they are splendid as drivers in the amp.


Satisfied with all those 12pins?
Look!😯

Maybe Try this? 😄


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Satisfied with all those 12pins?
> Look!😯
> 
> 
> ...



Tomas, can I use this wonder tube?


----------



## UntilThen

Finally the realization of a dream, 3 years in the making. Berlin and I'm listening to 'Take My Breath Away'.     

This combination has to be the best I've heard so far but I've yet to try EL39 and 807. Tomas, why are the meters hovering below 65 mA?


----------



## leftside

Maxx134 said:


> Try the 12au7 first. 🙂
> Remember in the "little dot mk6" threads, I must have rolled every 12 pin in existence (almost) on that amp.
> That amp (ironically) had the "advantage"(?) of very noticable tube rolling differences, by not being "biased" in the optimal linear range.
> 
> ...


When I was going through my 12AT7 spending spree, I also picked up a few 12AU7 as my DAC at the time could use them. I also picked up a pair of 6085 (E80CC) gold pins, pinched waist, D getter. Not with as nice lettering as that one you show though. I remember them being very good in that DAC.


----------



## UntilThen

They are expensive ! This one has red tip and says 'special quality'.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Tomas, why are the meters hovering below 65 mA?


The EL12sp bias differently than the KT88's and will draw less current, about half. This is also why you need to use the 5U4 with EL12sp. When drawing less current, and the power supply not being regulated, the high voltage supply (B+) will rise substantially. The EL12sp will run like they supposed to in Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> The EL12sp bias differently than the KT88's and will draw less current, about half. This is also why you need to use the 5U4 with EL12sp. When drawing less current, and the power supply not being regulated, the high voltage supply (B+) will rise substantially. The EL12sp will run like they supposed to in Odyssey.



Cool. Despite that, EL12 spez sound louder at the same volume knob turn. Running with EL11 in triode mode with no feedback.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Cool. Despite that, EL12 spez sound louder at the same volume knob turn. Running with EL11 in triode mode with no feedback.


I dont remember what the gain is for the EL12sp when triode strapped, but it must be a little higher than the KT88's then  
Have you tried the EL12sp in UL mode?


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I dont remember what the gain is for the EL12sp when triode strapped, but it must be a little higher than the KT88's then
> Have you tried the EL12sp in UL mode?



I've been listening in UL mode with EL12 spez for the last hour. Powerful and authoritative. Super quiet with He1000se. So much headroom with this amp. Volume knob is only at 9 o'clock. I've no doubt Odyssey will drive Abyss and Susvara very well.

Telefunken tubes are known for their sparkling high end and EL11 and EL12 spez exhibit that but still present a very lush tube tone that is a touch liquid. This combination is outstanding with tight bass that hits with impact. 

@DecentLevi  this is to alert you that EL11 and EL12 spez finally presents themselves in their glorious tone. This is the best I've heard these tubes. A far cry from what is happening with them in Euforia. Now another picture and I even put in a matching color RCA 6SN7gt grey smoke glass.


----------



## baronbeehive

mordy said:


> So now we have red, white and blue colored tips - all American colors!


British too .


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 16, 2021)

bcowen said:


> If you're looking for 12AT7's, these Footscray plant Brimars are pretty special.  Actually, very special.  I won't take credit for discovering them -- it was the guys over in the Schiit Mjolnir thread.  I ordered a couple and have to agree with them (and I'm not even much of a Brimar fanboy).
> 
> https://pulsetubestore.com/products...play-ready-to-use?_pos=3&_sid=169a59abc&_ss=r



Damn, just too late, I just ordered a 1960's or possibly 1970's Brimar. Watford valves rated them so I took the chance .

Brent Jessee said the later Brimars aren't that much different in sound so I'll have to take his word!

Edit: Was thinking of ordering the 12AT7 you linked to to compare to but my amp needs the higher gain 12AX7 really


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> I've been listening in UL mode with EL12 spez for the last hour. Powerful and authoritative. Super quiet with He1000se. So much headroom with this amp. Volume knob is only at 9 o'clock. I've no doubt Odyssey will drive Abyss and Susvara very well.
> 
> Telefunken tubes are known for their sparkling high end and EL11 and EL12 spez exhibit that but still present a very lush tube tone that is a touch liquid. This combination is outstanding with tight bass that hits with impact.
> 
> @DecentLevi  this is to alert you that EL11 and EL12 spez finally presents themselves in their glorious tone. This is the best I've heard these tubes. A far cry from what is happening with them in Euforia. Now another picture and I even put in a matching color RCA 6SN7gt grey smoke glass.


I knew you would like those tubes much better in this amp.....enjoy!


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> Try the 12au7 first. 🙂
> Remember in the "little dot mk6" threads, I must have rolled every 12 pin in existence (almost) on that amp.
> That amp (ironically) had the "advantage"(?) of very noticable tube rolling differences, by not being "biased" in the optimal linear range.


Right, yes how could I forget ☺️✌️.


Maxx134 said:


> I have bugleboy & yes they are great, but I never thought to consider their sound to be very similar to the Philips miniwatt. Yet, who knows which specific tube they talking about.


Yes exactly, I have a Philips Miniwatt with small "o" getter which sounds quite good and a Philips Herleen with a large "o" getter which is vastly superior and is my "go to" valve on the baby amp. The one with the small getter I can't confirm exactly what it is because there are no codes unfortunately.


Maxx134 said:


> I only ever heard "military tubes", which makes me highly doubt any company would think of using the word "medical" for making improvements.
> Never even seen light blue painted tips that color. Guess you learn something every day, lol 🤥😁


Yep, it makes sense though that "medical grade selected" tubes would be appropriate for say heart monitors, what could be more important?


Maxx134 said:


> Satisfied with all those 12pins?
> Look!😯
> 
> Maybe Try this? 😄


Tempting lol .


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> I knew you would like those tubes much better in this amp.....enjoy!



Joe, I did but what followed next will make Johnny be good become Johnny be bad. These EL39s will make Joe Bonamassa realized that he can make his blues music more blue and the drums and bass notes will kill some pigeons. Hell it might even kill some eagles.

Behold La Radiotechnique EL39 in combination with Siemens EL11 in UL mode. I'm digging up my blues and rock music now.


----------



## baronbeehive

mordy said:


> Here is the Footscray special edition tube:
> https://pulsetubestore.com/products...play-ready-to-use?_pos=3&_sid=169a59abc&_ss=r


It looks similar to the one bcowen posted.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm listening to Jimmy Barnes and Joe Bonamassa now. See Joe's expression when he plays the guitar? EL39 does that to him. Jimmy Barnes? Well he is a legend.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> They are expensive ! This one has red tip and says 'special quality'.





I think Special Quality means 10,000 hour life, but I have not been able to find an answer if the sound quality is better in long life tubes. Mullard made Millennium 10,000 hour tubes, and Russian tubes with the DR suffix are also supposed to last 10,000 hours.
Most tubes are rated 3000 - 5000 hours, but many old shoulder type large tubes can last 10,000 hours or more.


----------



## triod750

I just pulled out a 6201 SQ pinched waist Philips made by Valvo that has never been used. It is a robust piece of glass with triple mica. Somebody has written 'longlife' on the box. It is warming up right now...


----------



## baronbeehive

triod750 said:


> I just pulled out a 6201 SQ pinched waist Philips made by Valvo that has never been used. It is a robust piece of glass with triple mica. Somebody has written 'longlife' on the box. It is warming up right now...


Not sure about the triple mica, I had a triple mica sylvania and was pretty unimpressed. Probably just for reduced microphonics but they are hyped up these days.


----------



## triod750

baronbeehive said:


> Not sure about the triple mica, I had a triple mica sylvania and was pretty unimpressed. Probably just for reduced microphonics but they are hyped up these days.


First and foremost it is the sound that counts. And the sound depends on synergy with a lot of things, not least your ears and preferences.


----------



## baronbeehive

@bcowen dammit I just ordered that footscray factory 12AT7 tube you mentioned, that's a good price. I will compare it to the later Brimar which I'm waiting to receive.

Nothing will make me change my mind over my Philips, which has hardly every been pulled from its socket though, that will always be my main go to tube. The thing about it is it works with every type of music whereas my Mazda silver anode, which is also a great tube, doesn't really work with music that's already fairly thin and delicate sounding.


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> Came in a Havana Cuba box and proudly GE.
> 
> 
> 
> Mullard 5U4G - Made in USA ? @gibosi what's happening here?



Sourcing tubes from other manufacturers, relabeling them and marketing them as their own was standard operating procedure. Generally speaking, Mullard is more "honest" than most and reliably indicates the originating country.

As I have very few US-made 5U4G, I can't say who actually manufactured this tube, but it reminds me of a National Union.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> I just pulled out a 6201 SQ pinched waist Philips made by Valvo that has never been used. It is a robust piece of glass with triple mica. Somebody has written 'longlife' on the box. It is warming up right now...



Mine is a double mica. It is a brand new pair with perfect lettering. See how I have already smear a bit of the wordings now. Oh well, tubes are meant to be used. That's according to me.   





triod750 said:


> First and foremost it is the sound that counts. And the sound depends on synergy with a lot of things, not least your ears and preferences.



That is very true but there's usually a general consensus on certain tubes being better. That or you have people who have tried it and love it more.

I do definitely agree with you there on the tube's synergy with the amp and also the associated gear. In Odyssey, over the last 4 days, I haven't come across a tube combination that I didn't like. I have also start loving these small tubes now. Think I will get a couple more. In fact I've Philips Miniwatt 12au7 and 12at7 already set aside for me from another friend.



gibosi said:


> Sourcing tubes from other manufacturers, relabeling them and marketing them as their own was standard operating procedure. Generally speaking, Mullard is more "honest" than most and reliably indicates the originating country.
> 
> As I have very few US-made 5U4G, I can't say who actually manufactured this tube, but it reminds me of a National Union.



No way for me to compare 5u4g as I have 2 that are made in USA now. I cannot compare it with gz34, 32 also as it is use with different power tubes. I have no issues with the made in USA Mullard 5u4g though. It just integrates into the rest of the tube combination for some sweet music. That's the word that keeps coming to my mind when I try to express how Odyssey sound. 

The sweetness stamps from very clear and extended treble but it is smooth at the same time. It's an enigma. Coupled with an astounding but controlled bass and an engaging midrange, I've no doubt it is the best sounding tube amp I've heard. Not forgetting it is very quiet and it is a joy to change tubes with those Yamamoto sockets. It's the whole package coming together. Tomas has nailed it here.

Oh I forget to report that it is a cool tube amp even after 8 hours of usage. The only parts that are hot are the tubes and the mains transformer. The other parts are just lukewarm. The chassis is still cool to the touch ! This was one of my requirement. I told Tomas at the beginning that I don't want a hot amp. I certainly don't want it hot like the La Figaro 339 or the Ragnarok version 1. Those who owns those amps will know what I mean.


----------



## UntilThen

I tried Radiotron 807 in Odyssey as the last setup last night before I retire for bed. Running all these power tubes through just to make sure they play well in Odyssey and they do. My usual obsession with quietness applies. They are all quiet even with my low impedance He1000se. 

I will summarise on the tubes after I've been through it all thoroughly. Expect that in a year's time.   The 2 tubes that did stand out in a field of excellent power tubes are EL12 spez and EL39 but I'll know better after I have spend sufficient time with all of them.

Tubes in Odyssey are RCA 6sn7gt grey smoke glass, Siemen EL11, Radiotron 807 and Mullard 5u4g.


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> No way for me to compare 5u4g as I have 2 that are made in USA now. I cannot compare it with gz34, 32 also as it is use with different power tubes.



All the made-in-Britain 5U4G I have seen appear to me to be modified FW4/500. Rather than designing a completely new tube, it was much easier and efficient to simply swap out the 4-volt heater for a 5-volt and install an octal base. The British Tungsram pictured some pages back is a good example. It looks identical to a Tungsram FW4/500. So to be sure you are getting a British-made 5U4G just compare the construction to a British-made FW4/500.


----------



## whirlwind (Aug 16, 2021)

All true Mullard tubes that I have say made in England, or made in  Great Britan on them or British made. As Ken says they at least designate the country..no true Mullard will say made in USA

There are some Russian made EL34 tubes that are labeled Mullard.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> All the made-in-Britain 5U4G I have seen appear to me to be modified FW4/500. Rather than designing a completely new tube, it was much easier and efficient to simply swap out the 4-volt heater for a 5-volt and install an octal base. The British Tungsram pictured some pages back is a good example. It looks identical to a Tungsram FW4/500. So to be sure you are getting a British-made 5U4G just compare the construction to a British-made FW4/500.



The hunt for more rectifiers begins now.  Leftside is right when he said I almost quit on tubes when I got on Oblivion. I'm afraid I will plunge right back in again and it's all worth it for Odyssey.


----------



## triod750

Just a sh-tload more and you are done - for now.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> Just a sh-tload more and you are done - for now.



Hahaha how true. You have no idea how big the sh-tload is. There are some gorgeous expensive tubes I have in mind .....


----------



## UntilThen

Some iconic pictures of my setup over the years and I look back with love.

Starting with this.


----------



## UntilThen

Michelangelo couldn't have done it better here.


----------



## UntilThen

My pride and joy then...


----------



## UntilThen

My beloved Sansui .... now gone.


----------



## UntilThen

My iconic Oblivion.


----------



## UntilThen

The golden child


----------



## UntilThen

And the favorite of them all. Why why did I sell the lovely smiling Akai. I blame Bcowen !!!


----------



## UntilThen

Oh there's a nice picture of Studio Six with ZMF Verite but I can't find it now.

The prettiest and loveliest sounding of them all is Odyssey and you already have a ton of pictures of it.


----------



## UntilThen

I haven't quite forgotten Chameleon. GEC KT66 tubes are in it now. This is a beautiful, powerful sounding amp. I'm impressed. Bryant will be so pleased !


----------



## UntilThen

Question for the tube experts. Is E182CC the same as E80CC and can both be used in Odyssey? Perhaps this is a question for Tomas.  

A pair of Philips Miniwatt E182CC pinch waist is dangled in front of me....


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> I am not so familiar with the 12xx7 tubes but wonder if this CV4033 with the flying leads is the same or similar to the one selling for $131 that was converted to an octal coin base:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/274043492242?hash=item3fce43d792:g:CoAAAOSwVSpdnHpe
> For $9 + shipping it seems a good deal. Then, of course, you will need an octal base and have to solder in the leads.
> ...


The one from Pulse is fitted with a 9-pin base.  The one you pictured from Langrex is not from the Footscray factory (KB/FB), but (I think) the Rochester plant (KB/AD).  I'm certainly no expert on these tubes, but the Footscray is pretty special to my ears.  I might try one of the Footscray CV455's....for half the money if it's even close to as good as the CV4033 it'd be a good deal.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> Question for the tube experts. Is E182CC the same as E80CC and can both be used in Odyssey? Perhaps this is a question for Tomas.
> 
> A pair of Philips Miniwatt E182CC pinch waist is dangled in front of me....


You could take a look here: http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0049.htm


----------



## bcowen (Aug 16, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> Damn, just too late, I just ordered a 1960's or possibly 1970's Brimar. Watford valves rated them so I took the chance .
> 
> Brent Jessee said the later Brimars aren't that much different in sound so I'll have to take his word!
> 
> Edit: Was thinking of ordering the 12AT7 you linked to to compare to but my amp needs the higher gain 12AX7 really


I'm on the flipside of that -- the 12AT7 has _too_ much gain for my main amp which uses a 6SN7 natively.  Fortunately it works in my little Vali 2 amp that sounds way better than it has any right to with that tube.  I guess putting a $105 tube (it was $105 when I purchased) into a $150 amp sounds rather illogical, but you'll have to consider the source.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> @bcowen dammit I just ordered that footscray factory 12AT7 tube you mentioned, that's a good price. I will compare it to the later Brimar which I'm waiting to receive.
> 
> Nothing will make me change my mind over my Philips, which has hardly every been pulled from its socket though, that will always be my main go to tube. The thing about it is it works with every type of music whereas my Mazda silver anode, which is also a great tube, doesn't really work with music that's already fairly thin and delicate sounding.


Be very interested in your thoughts once you get it.  Frankly, it surprised me.


----------



## UntilThen

These are the Mullard EL34 double D getters and Philips Miniwatt EL34 meta base that I'll be getting from my supplier and I will send the bill to Bill.


----------



## triod750

bcowen said:


> I'm on the flipside of that -- the 12AT7 has too much gain for my main amp which uses a 6SN7 natively.  Fortunately it works in my little Vali 2 amp that sounds way better than it has any right to with that tube.  I guess putting a $105 tube (it was $105 when I purchased) into a $150 amp sounds rather illogical, but you'll have to consider the source.


The result is what to consider.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> These are the Mullard EL34 double D getters and Philips Miniwatt EL34 meta base that I'll be getting from my supplier and I will send the bill to Bill.


No fair sending me a bill for tubes I don't even like much.   Personal thing, of course.  Just never had a love affair with Mullard EL34's.  Maybe it's because I had GEC KT-77's at the same time which makes for a rather lopsided competition...


----------



## gibosi (Aug 16, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Question for the tube experts. Is E182CC the same as E80CC and can both be used in Odyssey? Perhaps this is a question for Tomas.
> 
> A pair of Philips Miniwatt E182CC pinch waist is dangled in front of me....



No, most consider the E80CC to be a super 12AU7. Whereas, the E182CC is rather similar to the American 5687, with which it shares the same pinout. So you will need an adapter.

The early pinched waist E80CC were manufactured in Eindhoven, Hamburg (Valvo) and Heerlen. And later, Amperex in Long Island. I believe that the E182CC was only manufactured in Heerlen. To my old and worn out ears these are all nice tubes. 

Edit: Oh, I should add that Hungarian Tungsram also made the E80CC. And as one might expect it is cooler than the lush Holland tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> No fair sending me a bill for tubes I don't even like much.   Personal thing, of course.  Just never had a love affair with Mullard EL34's.  Maybe it's because I had GEC KT-77's at the same time which makes for a rather lopsided competition...



Rub it in ! I will find my GEC KT77 after I get the remaining power tubes.... Meanwhile Chameleon is singing beautifully. The comparison of the 2 amps has just started to become more interesting in the coming days and week.


----------



## UntilThen

I pull out my special Telefunken EL12 spezial. Notice this pair says Spezial and not just Spez.  It does sound more textured. Going with Berlin have been worth it. What a tone !


----------



## UntilThen

Here's the tubes.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Here's the tubes.


Do  have any EL12N tubes to compare with?


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Do have any EL12N tubes to compare with?



I do have several pairs of EL12 and EL12N but I need to buy these adapters. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2011125...nlWlDEBEu37NHbSIC138|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2334524

The adapters I have are meant for Elise amp so it cannot be used. I will buy these adapters now because I want to sample EL12, EL12n in Odyssey.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> I do have several pairs of EL12 and EL12N but I need to buy these adapters. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/201112590040?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item2ed33e96d8:g:OoUAAOSw44BYaHV9&amdata=enc:AQAGAAACkPYe5NmHp%2B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkPrKr5t53CooMSQt2orsSjVt3vLKCbov98Z19qhuwY6ZcXpGpKhvUVLxMJMF0RTic2uASw%2BJMQLfa%2FdKGWJS3s%2F7qFiTIXhZyghfRCViXEGOjUGT2gsdueRFRvjda1yiobtOCNH%2FrwKMWHxhGO5mtvlAVSq9LWevxKdILa6DgZpV2JBnYC6HV5YjBZ8wmHrZ7hWG4UX3m8ZBv%2Bv0X8LN7o0BfyyRZ%2BNkd%2BVrvYGkwezPskpP6Y5eVp1zKaWadVgEEMniVParT4tu2e%2Bba8gvmN9vtS%2FiSG9nlHOSAt7i%2Fye1vLP6%2BR3eV42TsaUjSwpezI5xmt71CFDpJNdDhFFScOgaFm2MbazCmHLo4%2FfQenTw4OujO0SbJ43PehD7uAEgPIx5gEfbIXQkG54%2BFrUnzmYTjePaTGCtx4fdonSXw1H%2BUFd40vicmmbtgkUh%2B%2BG0JtuTZJG8exTB09fKfsV6n3uva9t9UgYcwXSoIBAaJayMLtl28ncD5Mw3XCV3deDnEYds5KqkiB0c76%2FqpeuuaQEEyG3E%2BGV2bS%2FcfA4dQJlQuCuAX0A45Qlm0PFu7EQAKSkQaTJnzifAACgkJX3bNTiRU6uk9yQoByEuYmSV3UQpDbHhJ8WeA50uTjvUGLv4aAQPvmWDLTeK2mrVaB20vhxkqZVWS4XvjWTodzOxbKydIjyF5MnrShLKuXbVi%2BiiCXiGkkBPZvclD6%2BoHH3uLIiyiG6EyEtwWljwsZnaaqozzwan%2BiofhJAgmSHuxdsqy5JX9d7KxCS%2Fyz15oOhHop4LdBrfJpZ2s6qrEiy%2F8dFV2b9H9Hx%2F0KNVHVdIuGQ%2FRnlWlDEBEu37NHbSIC138|ampidL_CLK|clp:2334524
> 
> The adapters I have are meant for Elise amp so it cannot be used. I will buy these adapters now because I want to sample EL12, EL12n in Odyssey.


Does this mean that you cannot use the standard 6AS7/6080 tubes in the Odyssey? Or only with adapters?


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Does this mean that you cannot use the standard 6AS7/6080 tubes in the Odyssey? Or only with adapters?



I don't think you can but I'll let Tomas answer this one. KT88 / EL34 etc are use in this amp as strapped triodes and not pentodes. It is a SET amp. Single Ended Triode. Again Tomas can correct me if I'm wrong.

300b are true triode tubes wheres KT88 / EL34 are wired in as triodes. To my ears, with Odyssey and Destiny, they both sound great in different ways.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> These are the Mullard EL34 double D getters and Philips Miniwatt EL34 meta base that I'll be getting from my supplier and I will send the bill to Bill.


Hey mate, those aren't Mullards. Just branded Mullard. The twin D getters were made either in Sittard 1957 - 1960 or Belgium 1960 - 1962 by Philips. Maybe @bcowen will like them now 

Ok I'm going to really nerd out on you now - those metal base with brown base are the 4th metal base version made by Philips, from 1956 - 1957. Single disc getters. All good tubes!


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Hey mate, those aren't Mullards. Just branded Mullard. The twin D getters were made either in Sittard 1957 - 1960 or Belgium 1960 - 1962 by Philips. Maybe @bcowen will like them now
> 
> Ok I'm going to really nerd out on you now - those metal base with brown base are the 4th metal base version made by Philips, from 1956 - 1957. Single disc getters. All good tubes!



O k .... so are the double D getters made either in Sittard or Belgium still good? Or should I kick them into the pond?

Yeah the metal base good? Ok then...  My supplier says the metal base are the best of the EL34.


----------



## leftside

bcowen said:


> The one from Pulse is fitted with a 9-pin base.  The one you pictured from Langrex is not from the Footscray factory (KB/FB), but (I think) the Rochester plant (KB/AD).  I'm certainly no expert on these tubes, but the Footscray is pretty special to my ears.  I might try one of the Footscray CV455's....for half the money if it's even close to as good as the CV4033 it'd be a good deal.


Yeah do it. Well worth it. I can't tell any difference.

You guys have made me go through some my 12AT7's tonight. Ok, what else do I recommend? Well most of the European 12AT7 were made by Philips, but can be branded Amperex, Valvo, etc. These are some of my favorites to use (in addition to those mentioned above such as the Brimar):

Valvo D getter. Marked with a "=" with a "/" through the middle which indicates the Siemens and Haske factory (Philips owned of course)
Amperex "Bugle Boy" D getter. Mine have Tk2 4M printed on the base. "4" is the Eindhoven factory, so Philips again. 
Mazda "five star" triple mica, halo getter. Made in France.
Mullard KB/D D getter 1953 - 1955
Philips KB/P D getter 1953 - 1955
The slightly earlier 1952 Mullard with welded plates, are also very nice, but things are now starting to get pricey (Langrex does have a bunch in stock though).


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> O k .... so are the double D getters made either in Sittard or Belgium still good? Or should I kick them into the pond?
> 
> Yeah the metal base good? Ok then...  My supplier says the metal base are the best of the EL34.


Definitely get them. I have a nicely used metal base EL34 that spend a lot of time in my preamp and a nicely used Sittard EL34 that spend a lot of time in my DAC. Magic mids.


----------



## UntilThen

Good and after that this GEC. Then I will queue up for the soup kitchen.


----------



## ThanatosVI

This thread is a dangerous place for my wallet.
I really don't need another amp but it looks so tempting.

6SN7 + KT88 families is a really nice combo imo as well.

Someonw mentioned a wood chassis, are there some pics of the amps with wood chassis available?


----------



## SonicTrance

@UntilThen 
Don't use regular EL12 in Odyssey! They are not made for such high voltage!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> @UntilThen
> Don't use regular EL12 in Odyssey! They are not made for such high voltage!



Okie dokie. Save me from buying the adapters.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Good and after that this GEC. Then I will queue up for the soup kitchen.


Ah,  *GEC KT88 …”The King Of Power Tubes”*


----------



## UntilThen

ThanatosVI said:


> This thread is a dangerous place for my wallet.
> I really don't need another amp but it looks so tempting.
> 
> 6SN7 + KT88 families is a really nice combo imo as well.
> ...



Haha wood chassis is still waiting to happen. Talk to Tomas about any chassis.  

It's not just 6SN7 + KT88. 

Odyssey has a lot more options where tubes are concerned. Can use 6SL7 and all the small tubes such as 12au7, 12at7, 12ax7. It's either or and not in combination.

Power tubes are of course more than just KT88. You can also use KT170, KT150, KT120, KT88, KT77, KT66, 6550, EL34, 6L6GC, 807, EL39, EL12 spez, etc. More than enough to satisfy you.

For someone else thinking of a similar build, you can also go with EL33 in place of EL11 or use GEC L63 / 6J5. Or even have c3g or EL3N . Lots of option or you can just keep it simple. Talk to Tomas. Your wallet's safe.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Ah,  *GEC KT88 …”The King Of Power Tubes”*



Odyssey is biased on KT88 but Tomas is running it cooler so as to accommodate the other power tubes. I think that's great as I hear KT88 sounding lovely as well as EL34 etc.

Glad I went with auto bias because with so many power tubes to play with, it will drive me crazy to do manual bias each time I change power tubes. Lastly having Yamamoto sockets is definitely recommended because putting in and taking out tubes is so smooth and easy.


----------



## SonicTrance

ThanatosVI said:


> This thread is a dangerous place for my wallet.
> I really don't need another amp but it looks so tempting.
> 
> 6SN7 + KT88 families is a really nice combo imo as well.
> ...


The wooden chassis was an idea I pitched Matt in the planning stage. But, we ended up with the silver chassis instead. The downside to thick wooden chassis is that most connections needs to be on the top plate.


----------



## UntilThen

ThanatosVI said:


> I really don't need another amp but it looks so tempting.



Yes you do. Everyone does.    

I have another evil idea of another amp with totally different tubes for a year later... if things go well. For now though, all my thoughts are on Odyssey and the whole of Tidal and Apple Music catalog to go through. If you have a chance to listen to Odyssey, you would want one. Guaranteed. Abyss 1266 TC will be coming to me soon to trial with my amps and I'm looking forward to that.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> The wooden chassis was an idea I pitched Matt in the planning stage. But, we ended up with the silver chassis instead. The downside to thick wooden chassis is that most connections needs to be on the top plate.



This was one of the chassis proposed but there are a lot more options. Not least have a custom chassis made of wooden or steel or aluminium and have it spray painted or power coated. I was almost sold on a wooden chassis but then I wanted to use my Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez tubes which are grey in color. I thought about grey and wood and they don't seem to blend. Tomas then propose his silver chassis as used on Citadel and I can just visualized how that will turn out. Turns out exactly how you see it now. Not for a moment did I regret it because I love the looks and of course the sound is now wooing me big time.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 17, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I tried Radiotron 807 in Odyssey as the last setup last night before I retire for bed. Running all these power tubes through just to make sure they play well in Odyssey and they do. My usual obsession with quietness applies. They are all quiet even with my low impedance He1000se.
> 
> I will summarise on the tubes after I've been through it all thoroughly. Expect that in* a year's time*.


OMG... how much longer are you going to be rolling those tubes, we haven't got all day to find out about them all!
.
And BTW look what you've done.. this tube rolling habit.. you've got me in it again, I thought I was done with all that.
 .


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 17, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I'm on the flipside of that -- the 12AT7 has _too_ much gain for my main amp which uses a 6SN7 natively.  Fortunately it works in my little Vali 2 amp that sounds way better than it has any right to with that tube.  I guess putting a $105 tube (it was $105 when I purchased) into a $150 amp sounds rather illogical, but you'll have to consider the source.


My Miniwatt was also $150.. plus about the same for the upgraded caps.

It may be illogical, that's what 6Moons said in their review of the Miniwatt, a $150 amp powering speakers valued in the $1000's, that's other people's bad luck and my good luck, I'm not proud!
.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> OMG... how much longer are you going to be rolling those tubes, we haven't got all day to find out about them all!
> .
> And BTW look what you've done.. this tube rolling habit.. you've got me in it again, I thought I was done with all that.
> .



I've just started rolling. It's not anywhere near finish.  Just you wait. I have a serious tube coming. Very serious. Won't give out any clues yet.

Glad you're rolling again !


----------



## whirlwind

Those GEC KT88's need to be locked up in a safe somewhere for future monies down the road


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 17, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Your wallet's safe.


@ThanatosVI , don't listen to him, there's a massive hole in his   .


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey is biased on KT88 but Tomas is running it cooler so as to accommodate the other power tubes. I think that's great as I hear KT88 sounding lovely as well as EL34 etc.
> 
> Glad I went with auto bias because with so many power tubes to play with, it will drive me crazy to do manual bias each time I change power tubes. Lastly having Yamamoto sockets is definitely recommended because putting in and taking out tubes is so smooth and easy.


That was definitely one of your better ideas, they will be in non stop use for the coming decade at least .


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Those GEC KT88's need to be locked up in a safe somewhere for future monies down the road



 that's what I thought when I bought the pair of brand new GEC 6as7g from Stavros. I did use it in the end. Never did think that I will chase another GEC again that is twice as expensive.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Be very interested in your thoughts once you get it.  Frankly, it surprised me.


Will do! The Langrex Footscray tube is due to arrive thursday and the 1960/70's tube next week. I don't know the factory there aren't any marks other than the Brimar/date codes.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I pull out my special Telefunken EL12 spezial. Notice this pair says Spezial and not just Spez.  It does sound more textured. Going with *Berlin* have been worth it.


Berlin... or... West Berlin:


----------



## leftside (Aug 17, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> Ah,  *GEC KT88 …”The King Of Power Tubes”*


As a fellow McIntosh owner (two MC75's) I agree with a lot of what the author of that article wrote. There are also a few editions of the GEC KT88 made before the more "typical" 3 getter variations. The earlier types just had getters on the top, and a very early edition has a smaller glass shape.










@LoryWiv I think you have two of these with the early getter types?


----------



## leftside (Aug 17, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> that's what I thought when I bought the pair of brand new GEC 6as7g from Stavros. I did use it in the end. Never did think that I will chase another GEC again that is twice as expensive.


Yeah buy them, but don't use them. It's rare to see GEC KT88 with such nice getter flashing these days. My GEC boxed pairs will never get used by me. Buy a used pair as well - they will sound just as good.


----------



## Galapac

leftside said:


> Yeah buy them, but don't use them. It's rare to see GEC KT88 with such nice getter flashing these days. My GEC boxed pairs will never get used by me. Buy a used pair as well - they will sound just as good.


Side track for a moment...so was the original intent to use the tube hearing the most beautiful music but when prices sky rocketed the decision became to lock these away as an investment?

I would be at a crossroads, wouldn't one want to experience the best there is as we may never know that today could be our last day? 

My most expensive pair is my GEC 6080 or now Bendix 6080 and I do use them from time to time, I just don't use them every day.

They are also not as expensive as the GEC 6AS7G or the GEC KT88s...


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> Side track for a moment...so was the original intent to use the tube hearing the most beautiful music but when prices sky rocketed the decision became to lock these away as an investment?
> 
> I would be at a crossroads, wouldn't one want to experience the best there is as we may never know that today could be our last day?
> 
> ...


~ I am with you, Galapac. Use your ‘holy grail’ tube(s) for special listening occasions.
~ Let’s face it, some listening sessions are more intensive than others.
~ Don’t let keeping the vacuum in your ‘holy grail’ tube(s) create a vacuum in your listening enjoyment.
~ What if after months/years of storage, your ‘holy grail’ tube(s) have deteriorated: Gm, gas, other? and you didn’t get to hear them? 😟


----------



## mordy (Aug 17, 2021)

SonicTrance said:


> @UntilThen
> Don't use regular EL12 in Odyssey! They are not made for such high voltage!


Jag undrar bara:
The EL12 comes in several maximum voltages: 250V, 325V, 350V and 375V. 
https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el12.html
The EL12Spez also comes as 250V and other versions with higher voltage - I think I remember even 425V.
https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el12spez.html

Why would not an EL12/250 work in the Odyssey if an EL 12/250 Spez works?
Or do I have it all wrong?


----------



## gibosi

Galapac said:


> Side track for a moment...so was the original intent to use the tube hearing the most beautiful music but when prices sky rocketed the decision became to lock these away as an investment?
> 
> I would be at a crossroads, wouldn't one want to experience the best there is as we may never know that today could be our last day?
> 
> ...



My practice: If I like a tube, I won't use it unless I have at least one backup or it is cheap to replace.

But for tubes that are quite expensive, for example, a 1937 Telefunken RGN4004 with mesh plates, it can be a real challenge to find even well-used and cosmetically beat-up tubes at an affordable price. However, in this case, I did manage to pick up a 1949 Telefunken RGN4004, shouldered bottle and sheet metal plates, for a good price. And fortunately, the 1949 sounds about the same as the 1937. So in this case, I store the 1937 and play the 1949.


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> My practice: If I like a tube, I won't use it unless I have at least one backup or it is cheap to replace.
> 
> But for tubes that are quite expensive, for example, a 1937 Telefunken RGN4004 with mesh plates, it can be a real challenge to find even well-used and cosmetically beat-up tubes at an affordable price. However, in this case, I did manage to pick up a 1949 Telefunken RGN4004, shouldered bottle and sheet metal plates, for a good price. And fortunately, the 1949 sounds about the same as the 1937. So in this case, I store the 1937 and play the 1949.


As you get older your perspective changes. One day you will not be able to listen any more - what will happen to all your valuable tubes? Will they go out on the sidewalk with the rest of the garbage?
If you are not the type to sell your tubes, maybe it is better to enjoy them now?


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 17, 2021)

leftside said:


> As a fellow McIntosh owner (two MC75's) I agree with a lot of what the author of that article wrote.


Speaking as a non KT88 tube user... thank God... I would have had to catch the next plane to Tokyo ahead of UT if that was possible . Probably cheaper than ebay.

That was an excellent article @LoryWiv .


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 17, 2021)

mordy said:


> As you get older your perspective changes. One day you will not be able to listen any more - what will happen to all your valuable tubes? Will they go out on the sidewalk with the rest of the garbage?
> If you are not the type to sell your tubes, maybe it is better to enjoy them now?


Yep, I listen practically every other evening without fail, the only person that beats that would be UT himself . It gets priority over everything else.  My mother went slightly deaf later on and I'm afraid if I don't make the most of it now it might be too late.

Edit: ... on the other hand I can see why if you're lucky enough to already possess such valuable tubes it would be wise to hold on to them.. I wish I had done the same .


----------



## ThanatosVI

leftside said:


> As a fellow McIntosh owner (two MC75's) I agree with a lot of what the author of that article wrote. There are also a few editions of the GEC KT88 made before the more "typical" 3 getter variations. The earlier types just had getters on the top, and a very early edition has a smaller glass shape.
> 
> 
> 
> @LoryWiv I think you have two of these with the early getter types?


You don't use those McIntosh monoblocks to Power your headphones, right?
It would seems crazy but interesting.


----------



## leftside

Galapac said:


> Side track for a moment...so was the original intent to use the tube hearing the most beautiful music but when prices sky rocketed the decision became to lock these away as an investment?
> 
> I would be at a crossroads, wouldn't one want to experience the best there is as we may never know that today could be our last day?
> 
> ...


I'm a bit of a history buff, like reading about tubes, like visiting museums, etc, and I believe genuine NIS/NIB tubes should be left that way for others to view in the future and to preserve some of the golden age of tube development/history. But, I totally understand why others would want to use them. The temptation is also great at my house.

I can still pick up used tubes from the 50's for pretty good prices, whereas genuine NIS/NIB tubes from that era are getting very expensive. Now, if sometime in the future, you only have the NIS/NIB tubes in your possession and it's impossible to find another of the same tube, and you also genuinely believe the new production tubes are inferior - well that's going to be quite a dilemma.

At the end of the day we all like tubes, and that's all that really matters to me on here.


----------



## leftside

ThanatosVI said:


> You don't use those McIntosh monoblocks to Power your headphones, right?
> It would seems crazy but interesting.


Noooo.... that would be too crazy even for me  I have custom made headphone amps. Not an Ultrasonic though, but I'm a big supporter of all the custom amp builders on here.


----------



## LoryWiv (Aug 17, 2021)

leftside said:


> As a fellow McIntosh owner (two MC75's) I agree with a lot of what the author of that article wrote. There are also a few editions of the GEC KT88 made before the more "typical" 3 getter variations. The earlier types just had getters on the top, and a very early edition has a smaller glass shape.
> 
> 
> 
> @LoryWiv I think you have two of these with the early getter types?


@leftside you have an excellent memory, *Here is our correspondence* on a different thread in January. I do also have a second pair of KT-88 I bought for backup,  I tested them in my amp., sound superb and now they are safely stored for if / when my initial pair die on me. Photos of the backup pair including test data from seller: 
:


----------



## baronbeehive

LoryWiv said:


> I do also have a second pair of KT-88 I bought for backup,  I tested them in my amp., sound superb and now they are *safely stored* for if / when my initial pair die on me.:


If only I had the foresight!


----------



## baronbeehive

leftside said:


> I can still pick up used tubes from the 50's for pretty good prices, whereas genuine NIS/NIB tubes from that era are getting very expensive. Now, if sometime in the future, you only have the NIS/NIB tubes in your possession and it's impossible to find another of the same tube, and you also genuinely believe the new production tubes are inferior - well that's going to be quite a dilemma.


It is indeed a dilemna. I have no qualms in using used tubes, the later Brimar I ordered tested at about 90% NOS but with matched sections, which I would be happy with, after all the tubes  you use aren't going to stay at NOS levels for long.

But I agree with the article and the conclusions are relevant for all NOS vs new production tubes, not just KT88's, it is certainly what I have found.


----------



## LoryWiv

baronbeehive said:


> If only I had the foresight!


It does put a dent in one's wallet, though, to backup pricey tubes. I am now selling my KT66 pair to help defray the cost, OK, back on topic now, I promise.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> As you get older your perspective changes. One day you will not be able to listen any more - what will happen to all your valuable tubes? Will they go out on the sidewalk with the rest of the garbage?
> If you are not the type to sell your tubes, maybe it is better to enjoy them now?



Well I'm about the same age as you and my perspective has yet to change. 

And fortunately I am healthy enough that the day when I won't be able to listen to tubes seems rather distant. But when that day comes, my will ensures that they will go to someone who feels the way I do. So no, I'm quite sure they will not go out to the street. lol


----------



## baronbeehive

LoryWiv said:


> It does put a dent in one's wallet, though, to backup pricey tubes. I am now selling my KT66 pair to help defray the cost, OK, back on topic now, I promise.


What is the topic.. I can't remember lol.


----------



## SonicTrance

mordy said:


> Jag undrar bara:
> The EL12 comes in several maximum voltages: 250V, 325V, 350V and 375V.
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el12.html
> The EL12Spez also comes as 250V and other versions with higher voltage - I think I remember even 425V.
> ...


I've never seen another datasheet than the one that says 425Va. He can't use any weaker version than that. Anode voltage will be right up there.


----------



## triod750

leftside said:


> I'm a bit of a history buff, like reading about tubes, like visiting museums, etc, and I believe genuine NIS/NIB tubes should be left that way for others to view in the future and to preserve some of the golden age of tube development/history.


But if they are supposed to not be used, just kept, does it matter if they are NOS if the box is saved pristine? I have a few tubes from the thirties that are beautiful and I cherish them but they are probably not in working order. I will not know but to me they are my museum pieces. My good tubes are more worth to me using them than as investments.
If I have several of the same type I can save som of them as NOS. Not the first pair but maybe the second or third, if I get that many.


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> Well I'm about the same age as you and my perspective has yet to change.
> 
> And fortunately I am healthy enough that the day when I won't be able to listen to tubes seems rather distant. But when that day comes, my will ensures that they will go to someone who feels the way I do. So no, I'm quite sure they will not go out to the street. lol


I just turned 75 - had a different perspective at 65 lol.


----------



## mordy

SonicTrance said:


> I've never seen another datasheet than the one that says 425Va. He can't use any weaker version than that. Anode voltage will be right up there.


Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> I just turned 75 - had a different perspective at 65 lol.



And I just turned 74.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 17, 2021)

Just to continue the argument for a moment, if I don't get thrown off the thread, the later military Russian tubes and caps were made to withstand a nuclear bomb almost, and some of the Chinese tubes are incorporating some interesting new techniques I believe ...  (then there's always the force field technology that bcowen knows all about), so why can't the new production tubes be made to be as good as NOS tubes? If they could do that then it wouldn't matter so much if the NOS tubes gradually disappeared over time, we would at least have some museum pieces anyway.

Sorry but to get back to the topic....

Edit: Tubes will always have an audiophile use anyway because, to get back to the topic, tubes are the best at providing linear voltages for the audio signal, that's why the amps on this thread use them... did you notice that we are now back on topic .


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Noooo.... that would be too crazy even for me  I have custom made headphone amps. Not an Ultrasonic though, but I'm a big supporter of all the custom amp builders on here.



Holy mackerel, I woke up to an interesting and varied discussion here. Let me touch on a few things.... 

Leftside have some wonderful custom made tube amps for headphones, besides his McIntosh and Lampizator tube dacs for speakers. He has Glenn 300b amp and a monster 6as7 / 6998 tube amp form Mischa. Of course he has an enviable collection of some of the loveliest tubes I've seen. I believe the only reason he can afford to preserve the NOS NIB tubes is because he has used spares which he can sample daily.

For me though I will buy to use them. No problem !!! Fortunately I'm only 25 .... he he he. 

But there is one tube that I wanted to buy when Odyssey was being built and they were even being sold by Langrez in both black and brown base and those are new. However now they are all gone !!! I am crushed because I read a lot about this tube being the king of power tubes. It's a EL34 on stereoids. Some say it's double of a EL34. Teleunken made it to replace KT88. Fortunately though I managed to find a used but very good condition pair yesterday.... 

So a picture here...  EL156.... and I can use them in Odyssey .... well I consulted Tomas. These are supposed to last 60,000 hours hahahaha.


----------



## triod750

Just 60000 hours. What will you do when they are dead and gone?
Bcowen says that his GE tubes will last forever because he won't use them. That is a clever way to make tubes last. The world's tube museums will be shock full of NOS GE tubes. And now everyone can relax and be happy...


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> Just 60000 hours. What will you do when they are dead and gone?
> Bcowen says that his GE tubes will last forever because he won't use them. That is a clever way to make tubes last. The world's tube museums will be shock full of NOS GE tubes. And now everyone can relax and be happy...



At my last calculation, all my tubes will last me 3 trillion years. Oh no I'm not one to listen with just one type of tube. I very much believe that our ears need variation to be stimulated. It's just like food. You won't eat the same stuff everyday. 

At the moment these Telefunken EL11 and El12 spez are just so good. They have been in the amp since all of yesterday. Which is a miracle seeing I'm on a roll.


----------



## baronbeehive

triod750 said:


> Just 60000 hours. What will you do when they are dead and gone?
> Bcowen says that his GE tubes will last forever because he won't use them. That is a clever way to make tubes last. The world's tube museums will be shock full of NOS GE tubes. And now everyone can relax and be happy...


... and Watford Valves are cryoing their GE's just to make sure they really do last forever 😁.


----------



## UntilThen

Btw I do love some GE tubes. This GE 5u4g came to me NOS NIB but it's no longer now. I'm using it and it's lovely. So nice in construction and well Odyssey sound good now and it must have a part to play in it. This has the ribbed plates.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> I very much believe that our ears need variation to be stimulated. It's just like food. You won't eat the same stuff everyday.


I'm with you on this one.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Holy mackerel, I woke up to an interesting and varied discussion here. Let me touch on a few things....
> 
> Leftside have some wonderful custom made tube amps for headphones, besides his McIntosh and Lampizator tube dacs for speakers. He has Glenn 300b amp and a monster 6as7 / 6998 tube amp form Mischa. Of course he has an enviable collection of some of the loveliest tubes I've seen. I believe the only reason he can afford to preserve the NOS NIB tubes is because he has used spares which he can sample daily.
> 
> ...


Here are a couple of places that have TFK EL156 in stock:
https://www.tubemonger.com/product_p/496.htm
http://www.tubes.rs/el156-telefunken/

And if you want to save them, there are Chinese EL156 available:
http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=19


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Here are a couple of places that have TFK EL156 in stock:
> https://www.tubemonger.com/product_p/496.htm
> http://www.tubes.rs/el156-telefunken/
> 
> ...



Tubemonger has only 1 tube and I believe www.tube.rs don't have them anyone. Those correspondence were from 2015. I also read that the chinese ones are no where near the original and that wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey is amazing. The way it drives my He1000se and LCD4. I can't get enough of the liquidity, wetness and lushness. It's tight, not loose and has a precision that stimulates the ears.


----------



## jonathan c

gibosi said:


> And I just turned 74.


For the first time? 😜


----------



## bcowen

leftside said:


> Hey mate, those aren't Mullards. Just branded Mullard. The twin D getters were made either in Sittard 1957 - 1960 or Belgium 1960 - 1962 by Philips. Maybe @bcowen will like them now
> 
> Ok I'm going to really nerd out on you now - those metal base with brown base are the 4th metal base version made by Philips, from 1956 - 1957. Single disc getters. All good tubes!


LOL!  I never met a tube I didn't like.  Just some I didn't love.  Wait......GE's.  Ignore that first part.


----------



## leftside

LoryWiv said:


> @leftside you have an excellent memory, *Here is our correspondence* on a different thread in January. I do also have a second pair of KT-88 I bought for backup, I tested them in my amp., sound superb and now they are safely stored for if / when my initial pair die on me. Photos of the backup pair including test data from seller: :


Very well done. A quad of GEC single getter KT88 from 1958.


----------



## gibosi

jonathan c said:


> For the first time? 😜



Yes, 74 for the first time. But I'm fixing to get married next year, so perhaps I will start over. lol


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Very well done. A quad of GEC single getter KT88 from 1958.



GEC KT88 are very expensive now. I haven't heard one but I will.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> GEC KT88 are very expensive now. I haven't heard one but I will.


GEC KT88's were very expensive 20 years ago.  Not that I'm old enough to know from experience, but I read it somewhere.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> Just to continue the argument for a moment, if I don't get thrown off the thread, the later military Russian tubes and caps were made to withstand a nuclear bomb almost, and some of the Chinese tubes are incorporating some interesting new techniques I believe ...  (then there's always the force field technology that bcowen knows all about), so why can't the new production tubes be made to be as good as NOS tubes? If they could do that then it wouldn't matter so much if the NOS tubes gradually disappeared over time, we would at least have some museum pieces anyway.
> 
> Sorry but to get back to the topic....
> 
> Edit: Tubes will always have an audiophile use anyway because, to get back to the topic, tubes are the best at providing linear voltages for the audio signal, that's why the amps on this thread use them... did you notice that we are now back on topic .


What topic..?


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks headfi...went for it! This pair of KT88's is most I've EVER spent on tubes, but as @UntilThen notes comparatively they are fairly priced. One of these days instead of Elise with adapters maybe I'll hit up one of you custom builders and see what this "*king of power tubes*" can do in it's native habitat. For now I need to rest my wallet and enjoy the music. 

@LoryWiv  the quote above is from you. I will pitch you towards Odyssey. I have heard what Psvane KT88 Tii and Genalex KT88 sound like on it. As well as the whole range of power tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> What topic..?



The last topic was 'One Night in Bangkok'.


----------



## UntilThen

Perhaps you've not heard of the legendary GEK KT88 ?

http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=2151


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Perhaps you've not heard of the legendary GEK KT88 ?
> 
> http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=2151


Ha!  Nope.  Guess I need to get out more?  Pretty sure they spelled it wrong though -- should be REKT 88.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Ha!  Nope.  Guess I need to get out more?  Pretty sure they spelled it wrong though -- should be REKT 88.



I think they meant to say GE KT88. It's just put together. So there you go a GE.


----------



## bcowen

triod750 said:


> Just 60000 hours. What will you do when they are dead and gone?
> Bcowen says that his GE tubes will last forever because he won't use them. That is a clever way to make tubes last. The world's tube museums will be shock full of NOS GE tubes. And now everyone can relax and be happy...


LOL!  And on the even brighter side, when GE's are the only NOS tubes left, current production tubes will be significantly more desirable.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  And on the even brighter side, when GE's are the only NOS tubes left, current production tubes will be significantly more desirable.


GEs will then be POS (piece of s**t)…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> GEs will *continue to* be POS (piece of s**t)…


FTFY.


----------



## UntilThen (Aug 17, 2021)

After 5 days of intense Odyssey, I power on Oblivion. The magic is still there. Superb rendition of Eva Cassidy 'Over the rainbow'. Both her singing and the strumming of her guitar.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> After 5 days of intense Odyssey, I power on Oblivion. The magic is still there. Superb rendition of Eva Cassidy 'Over the rainbow'. Both her singing and the strumming of her guitar.


But how does 'One Night in Bangkok' look sound?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> But how does 'One Night in Bangkok' look sound?



With EL39, the video becomes real. So don't sit too close to the screen. It's dynamic and punchy.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> With EL39, the video becomes real. So don't sit too close to the screen. It's dynamic and punchy.


Ooooh....googling 'EL39 tubes for sale' now.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Ooooh....googling 'EL39 tubes for sale' now.



Don't buy it all !!!


----------



## LoryWiv (Aug 18, 2021)

leftside said:


> Very well done. A quad of GEC single getter KT88 from 1958.


I wish, it is only a pair but I do cherish them and if my other well-loved pair gives way, I will use them. I'm 65 and life is too short to "wait for the right moment" indefinitely. Now if were only 25 like Matt....


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> I wish, it is only a pair but I do cherish them and if my other well-loved pair gives way, I will use them. I'm 65 and life is too short to "wait for the right moment" indefinitely. Now if were only 25 like Matt....



I'm sure GEC KT88 sounds great but honestly in Odyssey, most of the power tubes are great. I need to spend more time to pick out favorites. I have just made payment for the pair of Telefunken EL156 and adapters. Curious to know how that sound. There are also KT150 and KT170 which I haven't tried. Monster tubes. 

EL11 are pretty much the de facto driver tubes now in Odyssey. This is where it's also hard to pick out favorites. The small 12a*7 are so good, as are the 6SL7 and 6sn7.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> I'm sure GEC KT88 sounds great but honestly in Odyssey, most of the power tubes are great. I need to spend more time to pick out favorites. I have just made payment for the pair of Telefunken EL156 and adapters. Curious to know how that sound. There are also *KT150* and KT170 which I haven't tried. Monster tubes.
> 
> EL11 are pretty much the de facto driver tubes now in Odyssey. This is where it's also hard to pick out favorites. The small 12a*7 are so good, as are the 6SL7 and 6sn7.


I tried Gold Lion KT150 a while back in Elise and they were all muscle and brawn, no refinement. Clearly they more perform differently / better in Odyssey. I look forward to your impressions, Matt.


----------



## OctavianH (Aug 18, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> I tried Gold Lion KT150 a while back in Elise and they were all muscle and brawn, no refinement. Clearly they more perform differently / better in Odyssey. I look forward to your impressions, Matt.


They were the same on Eternity. I have some Tung Sol russian (so not Gold Lions). These:


----------



## LoryWiv

@OctavianH I stand corrected: mine were Tung-Sol also. I sold them quickly , and had forgotten the manufacturer. Thanks for jogging my memory!


----------



## ThanatosVI

OctavianH said:


> They were the same on Eternity. I have some Tung Sol russian (so not Gold Lions). These:


The Tung Sol and KR KT150s are the only ones currently existing.
It's a pretty new tube from 2017 or something like thst.

There also is only the Tung Sol KT170, which was released last year


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> I tried Gold Lion KT150 a while back in Elise and they were all muscle and brawn, no refinement. Clearly they more perform differently / better in Odyssey. I look forward to your impressions, Matt.



Strangely that is how I felt when using KT150 tubes in McChanson amp a while ago. I felt that for headphones, you're better served with KT88 or EL34.

KT150 or KT170 could be awesome driving speakers but there is no shortage of power with EL34.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> What topic..?


Deviation ... .


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> They were the same on Eternity. I have some Tung Sol russian (so not Gold Lions). These:



They're not bad...


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 18, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I'm sure GEC KT88 sounds great but honestly *in Odyssey, most of the power tubes are great*


Might be a tad controversial but in my Little Dot I had top of the range WE421A's, Bendix 6080WB's and now I'm back with good old RCA 6AS7G's, due to the mods in the amp anything sounds so good and I always liked the RCA sound, balanced and warm. And supplies of RCA 6AS7G's should not run out any day soon!

Although the price of even them is starting to creep up I noticed!


UntilThen said:


> it's also hard to pick out favorites. The small 12a*7 are so good, as are the 6SL7 and 6sn7.


Yep they're all so good.


----------



## baronbeehive

@bcowen the newer Brimar arrived today, gm around NOS values, emissions around 90% so quite acceptable, waiting for the NOS 1956 Footscray Brimar to compare.


----------



## OctavianH

baronbeehive said:


> And supplies of RCA 6AS7G's should not run out any day soon!


Acoustic Dimension still sells them with 30 EUR/ piece. Seems decent (I think I paid 25 EUR many years ago). I think I still have somewhere a pair.


----------



## UntilThen

Damm this is good and it's making my He1000se sing with Odyssey. These Siemens 12au7 and EL39 can make you tap your feet and move your shoulders.


----------



## UntilThen

Acoustics Dimension are still selling NOS EL3N. I've dealt with Peter since Elise days.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Acoustics Dimension are still selling NOS EL3N. I've dealt with Peter since Elise days.


Matt , do you have a link to the tubes...the website that I get I can not see any tubes.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> These are supposed to last 60,000 hours hahahaha.


There's a remote possibility that you just might be on your next amp before then .


----------



## UntilThen (Aug 18, 2021)

whirlwind said:


> Matt , do you have a link to the tubes...the website that I get I can not see any tubes.



Go to this link http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/

Then go to tubes & co at the top

Then New Old Stock tubes

and it's there...

You have to email Peter if you want to buy any. See how to order at the top.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> There's a remote possibility that you just might be on your next amp before then .



Hold that thought there. I'll come back to you.

Meanwhile I needed to know if Odyssey still sound decent with current production tubes. I didn't have to wait for long to find out. I've put in a Genalex ECC82 (12au7) and a pair of Electro Harmonix 6L6GC tubes and it's more than decent. Very good tone indeed.


----------



## ThanatosVI

UntilThen said:


> Hold that thought there. I'll come back to you.
> 
> Meanwhile I needed to know if Odyssey still sound decent with current production tubes. I didn't have to wait for long to find out. I've put in a Genalex ECC82 (12au7) and a pair of Electro Harmonix 6L6GC tubes and it's more than decent. Very good tone indeed.


The Genalex 12au7 is still on my list. Good to hear some positive Feedback ok it


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> OMG... how much longer are you going to be rolling those tubes, we haven't got all day to find out about them all!
> .
> And BTW look what you've done.. this tube rolling habit.. you've got me in it again, I thought I was done with all that.
> .



Now I come back to this post of yours again. Tonight I pull out a Genalex 6922 / E88CC and put it in a ECC88 to 6sn7 adapter and into Odyssey 6SL7 socket. This sings beautifully !!!

Now I've open another can of worms. 6DJ8/ECC88, E88CC, 7308, and the Russian 6N23P-EV are possible candidates in Odyssey.

Tomas how did you do it? I have so many options in that one socket.


----------



## UntilThen

That Genalex 6922 gain is very good. A punchy sounding tube with a lot of thrust. I was trying to find my Voskhod Rocket 6N23P because that has a very strong bass but I couldn't find it. Perhaps I left it in Sydney.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> There's a remote possibility that you just might be on your next amp before then .



Now I come to 'your next amp' post. Odyssey is supposed to be the final amp. He came home and that was it. Remember Homer's tale. There's nothing more to it.

However there's a seed planted in my brain this whole week and I did mention to Tomas about it. I'll leave it at that because a year is a long time.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Now I come back to this post of yours again. Tonight I pull out a Genalex 6922 / E88CC and put it in a ECC88 to 6sn7 adapter and into Odyssey 6SL7 socket. This sings beautifully !!!
> 
> Now I've open another can of worms. 6DJ8/ECC88, E88CC, 7308, and the Russian 6N23P-EV are possible candidates in Odyssey.
> 
> Tomas how did you do it? I have so many options in that one socket.


Oh oh, here come Telefunken cca, Siemens 7308…


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Go to this link http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/
> 
> Then go to tubes & co at the top
> 
> ...


Weird when I open it up in my browser I do not see tubes and company


----------



## mordy

whirlwind said:


> Weird when I open it up in my browser I do not see tubes and company


Just opened up the link. On the top row you see an item Shipping-costs. Two steps right underneath you can see tubes & co.


----------



## whirlwind

mordy said:


> Just opened up the link. On the top row you see an item Shipping-costs. Two steps right underneath you can see tubes & co.


Got it...thanks.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> They are expensive ! This one has red tip and says 'special quality'.



I think Special Quality means 10,000 hour life, but I have not been able to find an answer if the sound quality is better in long life tubes. Mullard made Millennium 10,000 hour tubes, and Russian tubes with the DR suffix are also supposed to last 10,000 hours.
Most tubes are rated 3000 - 5000 hours, but many old shoulder type large tubes can last 10,000 hours or more.


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Oh oh, here come Telefunken cca, Siemens 7308…



I'm going to thread cautiously because these are holy grail of their class with price to match. I'm just marveling that the current production Genalex 6922 sounded great in Odyssey. This amp is very responsive to tubes. Maybe it's the Sowter output transformers doing the heavy lifting here or Tomas tuning. Whatever it is, I marvel that an auto biased amp will react so well with so many different type of tubes.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 18, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Now I come to 'your next amp' post. Odyssey is supposed to be the final amp. He came home and that was it. Remember Homer's tale. There's nothing more to it.
> 
> However there's a seed planted in my brain this whole week and I did mention to Tomas about it. I'll leave it at that because a year is a long time.


Yes but Helen of Troy was very cross twiddling her thumbs for 10 years, I wouldn't blame him if he went on another odyssey for 10 years in search of the fabled mythical holy grail tube ☺️.

Edit: Correction not Helen of Troy, Penelope, and not Lady Penelope! None of you picked me up on that. Helen was the cause of the Trojan war.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Yes but Helen of Troy was very cross twiddling her thumbs for 10 years, I wouldn't blame him if he went on another odyssey for 10 years in search of the fabled mythical holy grail tube ☺️.
> 
> Edit: Correction not Helen of Troy, Penelope, and not Lady Penelope! None of you picked me up on that. Helen was the cause of the Trojan war.



You're getting Helen and Penelope mixed up there. Fortunately you corrected it.  

A mythical holy grail tube must also be accompanied by an equally mythical output transformers. I have huge respect for Sowter now. Any future amp will use them or some other equally famous transformers.

I do have to give credit to Tomas. Odyssey sound absolutely beautiful. I've shifted to the 2nd phase now. I'm more captivated by the sound of Odyssey than the looks. I'm on a smooth jazz station on Apple Music now and it is so delicate and clear with a nice thump of bass coming from the He1000se. A good way to start the day.


----------



## mordy

baronbeehive said:


> Yes but Helen of Troy was very cross twiddling her thumbs for 10 years, I wouldn't blame him if he went on another odyssey for 10 years in search of the fabled mythical holy grail tube ☺️.
> 
> Edit: Correction not Helen of Troy, Penelope, and not Lady Penelope! None of you picked me up on that. Helen was the cause of the Trojan war.


Edit: Correction not Helen of Troy
Are you sure it shouldn't be Heerlen?


----------



## Magol79

@UntilThen, I think it's only proper that you have the master tenor, Jussi Björling, sing "O Holy Night" to you on the Odyssey.



(in his native tongue, Swedish)


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks Magol. What a voice ! I found him on Apple Music where the SQ is much better in lossless.


----------



## triod750

He is buried 500 meters from where I sit right now.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm using my Genalex 12au7 and EH 6L6GC to burn in Odyssey. It's on 8 hours a day.  On speakers with smooth jazz while I work.


----------



## triod750

It burns in much faster with expensive tubes. Will sound better too. Both now and forever.


----------



## mordy

triod750 said:


> It burns in much faster with expensive tubes. Will sound better too. Both now and forever.






Here is an early DeForest tube. Don't know why it costs $12,000 + shipping. And since it is a triode you will need a pair.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/311509606861?hash=item48876b61cd:g:~rwAAOSwQTVV-MtS


----------



## Galapac

mordy said:


> Here is an early DeForest tube. Don't know why it costs $12,000 + shipping. And since it is a triode you will need a pair.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/311509606861?hash=item48876b61cd:g:~rwAAOSwQTVV-MtS


Holy crap Irene!
A tube should never cost more than the amp. That tube will be listed longer than my life.


----------



## triod750

Galapac said:


> That tube will be listed longer than my life.


Don't be so sure. UT is already looking for a second one.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> Don't be so sure. UT is already looking for a second one.



Hahaha... any idea what these tubes are? I think they might be my 6N23P but I'm not sure. I didn't label the box.


----------



## triod750

Tu be or not tu be a tube roller; https://medialux.blog/2021/02/22/tube-rolling-the-big-mystery-part-1/


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> Hahaha... any idea what these tubes are? I think they might be my 6N23P but I'm not sure. I didn't label the box.


You could make some comparisons: https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=6n23p&iax=images&ia=images


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> You could make some comparisons: https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=6n23p&iax=images&ia=images



Oh yes it's a 
Voskhod Rockets 6n23p 1975 date codes - Gray Shields​


----------



## UntilThen

Houston, we have music from the Voskhod Rockets 6N23P. Odyssey is priceless now.    Dat bass ! and it's quiet.


----------



## UntilThen

I like the fact that I only need one tube. Just one !


----------



## mordy

Yeah, them Voshkods have good bass!


----------



## UntilThen

Ok tell me if this is worth 250 quids.

https://www.stereonet.com/forums/to...set-amperex-7308-usn-tubes-2-pairs-available/


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> I like the fact that I only need one tube. Just one !


I use four of those in Triod 750.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> I use four of those in Triod 750.



You need Odyssey. No shipping required for you. Just pick it up from Tomas.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh I took some pictures of Odyssey and my headphones.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> You need Odyssey. No shipping required for you. Just pick it up from Tomas.


He could deliver one as a freebie. I would make no objections.


----------



## UntilThen

And pic number 2. Pic number 3 will have to wait for Abyss.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Ok tell me if this is worth 250 quids.
> 
> https://www.stereonet.com/forums/to...set-amperex-7308-usn-tubes-2-pairs-available/


Ask if they have the PQ designation (prime quality).


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Ask if they have the PQ designation (prime quality).


Prime quality, Special quality, how many qualities are there.


----------



## UntilThen

This link says the PQ are industrial version and the USN-CEP are military.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/nos...8-e188cc-tubes-1964-1966-matched-pair.761709/


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> @bcowen the newer Brimar arrived today, gm around NOS values, emissions around 90% so quite acceptable, waiting for the NOS 1956 Footscray Brimar to compare.


Cool!  Have you listened yet?  I've only heard the 1957 and don't know how the 60's vintage compare.  Seems older is better (usually), but I'm sure there are exceptions.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Seems older is better (usually)



Same with human beings.


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> Here is an early DeForest tube. Don't know why it costs $12,000 + shipping. And since it is a triode you will need a pair.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/311509606861?hash=item48876b61cd:g:~rwAAOSwQTVV-MtS


Geeez....I thought $300 for an RCA was a lot back when I used that tube.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Same with human beings.


And caddies.  Don't forget caddies.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Cool!  Have you listened yet?  I've only heard the 1957 and don't know how the 60's vintage compare.  Seems older is better (usually), but I'm sure there are exceptions.


No, wednesday is my "be kind to neighbour day", so I had great difficulty not listening! I was last listening to the incredibly open clear amazingly musical Mazda silver anode so that will stay in my memory when I try the Brimar, probably tomorrow. I intend listening with Fourplay, UT take note. The band are so amazing and the sound so real.


----------



## Galapac

UntilThen said:


> Prime quality, Special quality, how many qualities are there.


I’ve been told that the PQ and SQ designations are nothing more than the retail versions of a military spec tube.
Others may know if that is true or not.


----------



## gibosi (Aug 18, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Ok tell me if this is worth 250 quids.
> 
> https://www.stereonet.com/forums/to...set-amperex-7308-usn-tubes-2-pairs-available/



Judging by the getter construction these are fairly late production. As @bcowen notes, many consider late 1950's to early 1960's to be the best. So I certainly wouldn't overpay for these. That said, I bought mine quite some time ago and have no idea what even these later ones are going for these days.


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks Ken. I will back off tubes a bit. There are some big items before I'm done with my setup.

This was from a few years ago and I did love it at that time but what I have now is much much better... in my subjective opinion.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Thanks Ken. I will back off tubes a bit. There are some big items before I'm done with my setup.
> 
> This was from a few years ago and I did love it at that time but what I have now is much much better... in my subjective opinion.


Cool tubes, even then! Brimars and Raytheons, nice!


----------



## UntilThen

One of the album I like to play is Metallica The Black Album. I'm listening with LCD4 power by Odyssey. Tubes are Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez. This is unbelievably good. Odyssey is coming up to a week of playing time now @ 8 hours a day. Drums sound real and powerful. Up volume. LCD4 loves it. It's shockingly enjoyable at the end of a working day.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Cool tubes, even then! Brimars and Raytheons, nice!



It's a beautiful 6V6 transfo coupled amp. I just wish they didn't cap it at 1w. They should have let it loose at 3w because it's an over built power supply good for 20 watts. Plug in 4 full size headphones and it still go full steam.


----------



## UntilThen

How much will you pay for a fully functioning tester such as this?


----------



## UntilThen

Is there anything more beautiful than Norah Jones serenading me on LCD4.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Is there anything more beautiful than Norah Jones serenading me on LCD4.



Possibly her inspired "Little Broken Hearts" album.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> How much will you pay for a fully functioning tester such as this?


What tester is that? It looks fully functional.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Thanks Ken. I will back off tubes a bit. There are some big items before I'm done with my setup.
> 
> This was from a few years ago and I did love it at that time but what I have now is much much better... in my subjective opinion.


What was the amp?


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> What tester is that? It looks fully functional.



AVO MK4 VALVE CHARACTERISTIC METER TUBE VALVE TESTER



baronbeehive said:


> What was the amp?



ALO Audio Studio Six


----------



## baronbeehive

I will get a tester at some point, it would have been useful when selling tubes, also when your tubes are needing replacing, *before* they damage the amp.


----------



## UntilThen (Aug 19, 2021)

And this is Odyssey in case you forget  Back to where I started. Brimar 6SL7 with Tung Sol 6550. So many good combinations and this is right up there with the best. I've been lauding EL12 spez and EL39 in the past few days but the Tung Sol 6550 is an amazing sounding tube.

Odyssey has performed beyond my expectations. Incredible sweetness with He1000se. I could not stop listening. So often I've stared at the amp in disbelief at what I'm hearing.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 19, 2021)

OMG this 1960's/1970's Brimar, on the left, is one great tube. The other is the NOS Brimar 1956 12AT7. See my comments below:





I will give my impressions in a bit of detail because I know some people might be interested especially bcowen, and what I say would apply to the Odyssey as well as my amp.

My $150 amp has no right to sound this good! These are initial impressions and the difference after listening to the 12AX7A Mazda silver anode couldn't be more different. The Mazda is a treble centric sounding tube, a bit like GE's for clarity.. *BUT, wait for it*.. there the the similarity ends. The Mazda is very musical, very open soundstage, very percussive so that for example guitar strings are shockingly stand out with the hits of the pick being so well defined, yet the treble has a delicate, airy quality too. Despite this the tube is quite punchy too and bass is very tight and hits you quite hard although it doesn't go deep.

So to go from that to the typical Brimar full bodied sound is something of a shock! The first impression is of a powerful and defined bass - kick drums, tomtom, bass guitar. The room shook! As well as that the dynamics are powerful too, the track I had on starts softly and I turned it up a bit to hear it, and maybe I shouldn't have because when the sound reached the normal level the change from quiet to fairly loud was quite startling.

Soundstage was excellent with a 3d quality, especially depth. In contrast to the Mazda the sound signature was skewed to bass and mid bass giving a typical Brimar powerful, rich tone. Bass lines were very prominent and easy to follow, good for bassheads. I thought my Philiips was powerful in that department but the Brimar was more so with a very real sound of all the instruments. Guitar was powerful, but again the bassier frequencies were the most prominent compared to the Mazda. Similarly vocals, very rich with less of the treble sounds like the "S" sibilant sound which was clearer on the Mazda.

So I would say that gives a first impression of the Brimar, can't wait to try the NOS Footscray 1950's tube to compare to! As you can see in the picture the tubes have different constructions and the grey plates on the 1950's are shiny whereas the grey plates on the newer Brimar are matt.

I thought it was interesting to see how it contrasted with the Mazda. I like that tube very much and it contrasts with the Philips. I will have to check out the Philips again after I have tried the NOS Brimar. My feeling is that I will stick with the Philips and Mazda as my go to tubes because they contrast so well and the Philips has the richer bassier tone yet the balance across the whole frequency spectrum is excellent on the Philips with extended bass, yet also extended treble which rings out beautifully, although not as much as the Mazda. Therefore I feel the Philips is possibly more balanced across the whole spectrum whereas the Brimar is definately weighted towards bass and mid bass with a very powerful, rich tone which is great for people liking this. I did but I'm not sure if it will displace my tubes.

I hope that is informative and interesting guys!


----------



## UntilThen

Some tubes will move you. From the ordinary, to the good, to the superb, to the holy grail. I know that a single tube doesn't present the whole sound package you're hearing. It is in combination with the power tubes, rectifier if you use a tube rectifier, the amp, your chain, your headphone and so forth. However generally, with all things remaining unchanged, you can pick out a tube's tone. 

I haven't been exposed to many Brimars but those that I've tried, have sounded great. Brimar 6sn7gt black glass, Brimar 12au7 long plates, Brimar 6sl7gt red letters.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 19, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Some tubes will move you. From the ordinary, to the good, to the superb, to the holy grail. I know that a single tube doesn't present the whole sound package you're hearing. It is in combination with the power tubes, rectifier if you use a tube rectifier, the amp, your chain, your headphone and so forth.


Yeah, absolutely it is a mix of ingredients, and personal preferences too. When you get it right it is very satisfying, and interesting on the way!

I'm interested to see what the 1950's tube sounds like, will it be that much better or what?


----------



## UntilThen

Another TOTL hits the market - Dan Clarke Audio Stealth. 

I'm very satisfied with my He1000se and LCD4 though. Will also be testing Abyss soon. Odyssey drives my headphones so well.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> One of the album I like to play is Metallica The Black Album. I'm listening with LCD4 power by Odyssey. Tubes are Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez. This is unbelievably good. Odyssey is coming up to a week of playing time now @ 8 hours a day. Drums sound real and powerful. Up volume. LCD4 loves it. It's shockingly enjoyable at the end of a working day.


You know of course that "Enter Sandman" means "here come the transistors," right?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> How much will you pay for a fully functioning tester such as this?


Depends on whether the (many) electrolytic caps have been replaced -- at bare minimum -- and when it was last calibrated.  The AVO's are very nice testers, but also pretty complex and usually need some fairly expensive restoration work to function reliably as they did when new.   If the 50+ year old electrolytics haven't been replaced, I'd be hesitant to even turn it on.  Just an opinion from a Hickok fanboy (who has also owned two AVO's).


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> OMG this 1960's/1970's Brimar, on the left, is one great tube. The other is the NOS Brimar 1956 12AT7. See my comments below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very nice write-up and comparison!  I have some Mazda Cifte's that are probably different than what you have, but they share the same treble-centric presentation.  They have a lot of nice qualities for my ears and preferences, but I never could get past that (sometimes) sizzly top end.  Perhaps in a darker sounding amp or one that would benefit from some more treble energy they could be the ticket.

But wait until you try the Footscray.  Pretty nice right out of the box, but give it 25 hours (or so) of break-in and it really blossoms.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> You know of course that "Enter Sandman" means "here come the transistors," right?



wrong ! It means here comes the tubes.




bcowen said:


> Depends on whether the (many) electrolytic caps have been replaced -- at bare minimum -- and when it was last calibrated.  The AVO's are very nice testers, but also pretty complex and usually need some fairly expensive restoration work to function reliably as they did when new.   If the 50+ year old electrolytics haven't been replaced, I'd be hesitant to even turn it on.  Just an opinion from a Hickok fanboy (who has also owned two AVO's).



Ok so you to know a thing or 2 about testers. Post a picture of your Hickok and where to get one.


----------



## leftside

Here are two of my favourite 12AT7 I was talking about. Two on the left are Mullard Mitcham and two on the right are Philips Eindhoven. 1953 and 1954. Slightly earlier will cost a lot more as rhe 1952 have the rarer welded plates/anodes.


----------



## leftside

Mullard also made them at the Blackburn factory (and probably elsewhere)


----------



## leftside

And just as a side note, I find the earlier Mullards (pre 1958) to sound quite different to the latter tubes. I find them to be much "tighter" and clearer in sound. The latter tubes are still good of course. I find the latter tubes to be a bit warmer, which is great if that is what you want. There definitely seems to be a clear price difference on eBay of the Mullard tubes pre 1958 whether it be 12AT7 (which can still be had for great prices) or the 12AX7 or ECC32 (which command very high prices these days). Ok back to the regular programming


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> wrong ! It means here comes the tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is my favorite, the 752A.  Perfect for lazy people like me as it has a '2nd plate' button that you just push rather than having to re-do other settings for dual triode tubes.





A Weston 981 Type 3 I use for power tubes as it has a much beefier transformer than the Hickok. Have another one sitting here waiting for restoration.





539B after restoration (sold it a few months ago):





Hickok 800A.  Have restored several of these:





TV7:  I absolutely hate working on these.  Good testers, but shoehorned into the case:





A B&K after restoring.  I much prefer Hickoks:




And a B&K 747:





Ooops:





A Hickok 752 (non-A) currently in the stash....has a problem I'm trying to figure out:





I'll stop there.    Other than the 752A I bought 25 years ago from a radio shop that was closing, all the rest have come from Ebay.  Just have to be careful and know what to look for.


----------



## leftside

bcowen said:


> This is my favorite, the 752A.  Perfect for lazy people like me as it has a '2nd plate' button that you just push rather than having to re-do other settings for dual triode tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow. Those look amazing. Didn't realize you were so talented and did restorations. I thought you were just here to abuse UT haha.


----------



## bcowen

leftside said:


> Wow. Those look amazing. Didn't realize you were so talented and did restorations. I thought you were just here to abuse UT haha.


Thanks!  My primary reason for being here is to caddy for abuse UT, but I _do_ have other hobbies.  Just don't tell him or he'll cut my pay.


----------



## bcowen

leftside said:


> And just as a side note, I find the earlier Mullards (pre 1958) to sound quite different to the latter tubes. I find them to be much "tighter" and clearer in sound. The latter tubes are still good of course. I find the latter tubes to be a bit warmer, which is great if that is what you want. There definitely seems to be a clear price difference on eBay of the Mullard tubes pre 1958 whether it be 12AT7 (which can still be had for great prices) or the 12AX7 or ECC32 (which command very high prices these days). Ok back to the regular programming


I have some Mullard 12AU7's (but no 12AT7's).  I'm assuming these are later versions (never spent the time to look up the codes).  Nice sounding tubes, but a little slow and muffled sounding to me (which I presume is not a characteristic of the pre '58's).


----------



## leftside

Few more tubes that have been talked about on here. GEC KT88 single getters. Mazda 5* triple mica 12AT7 (and a Telefunken 12AX7 for good measure). I quite like this combo 🙂


----------



## leftside

bcowen said:


> I have some Mullard 12AU7's (but no 12AT7's).  I'm assuming these are later versions (never spent the time to look up the codes).  Nice sounding tubes, but a little slow and muffled sounding to me (which I presume is not a characteristic of the pre '58's).


That is indeed my findings in my equipment. I like 12AU7 in equipment made for them, but anywhere I've tried them in equipment not made for them (with adapters) they sounded even more slow and muffled.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> This is my favorite, the 752A.  Perfect for lazy people like me as it has a '2nd plate' button that you just push rather than having to re-do other settings for dual triode tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Eh... we've been good friends, can you sell me one of those cheap? Or even gift it? Tyvm in advance.


----------



## UntilThen

Just dropping another impression of Chameleon vs Odyssey.

Chameleon is like a water color paint. Odyssey is oil painting. Think about that for a moment. Both beautiful but different. 

Chameleon



Odyssey


----------



## UntilThen

An afternoon spend with rolling in 6sn7s. First up is Ken Rad 6sn7gt black glass. How could I not love 6sn7. A whole thread is dedicated to and started by an Australian. 

Odyssey is the most versatile SET amp I've come across. The ability to use all these drivers means I'll never be short of tubes to use. 



2nd to 4th on the left are 6SL7. The rest are 6sn7. There's a Foton there.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> An afternoon spend with rolling in 6sn7s. First up is Ken Rad 6sn7gt black glass. How could I not love 6sn7. A whole thread is dedicated to and started by an Australian.
> 
> Odyssey is the most versatile SET amp I've come across. The ability to use all these drivers means I'll never be short of tubes to use.
> 
> ...


Odyssey is the most photogenic amp. I've seen (and I'm sure your photographic skills contribute greatly). A feast for eyes and ears.


----------



## OctavianH

I always appreciated the symmetry from UT's photos. If you look at that 6SN7 it is perfectly aligned with the black part of the transformer behind. I try to do the same in my photos but I usually fail. Welcome to OCD club. LOL


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Odyssey is the most photogenic amp. I've seen (and I'm sure your photographic skills contribute greatly). A feast for eyes and ears.



Thank you ! All I have is a iPhone 11 Pro Max. I have no skills.


----------



## SonicTrance

bcowen said:


> This is my favorite, the 752A.  Perfect for lazy people like me as it has a '2nd plate' button that you just push rather than having to re-do other settings for dual triode tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice testers! I have a Heathkit TT1A that I've restored and calibrated. Nice tester, pretty easy to work on unless there's a wiring issue.


----------



## OctavianH

I use a small one, a modern model:
https://www.radioelec.com/lampemetre-en-valise-xml-352_387-1507.html
For octals it is fine and I do not need something else. Easy to use, fine for octal and noval sockets.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Eh... we've been *good friends*, can you sell me one of those cheap? Or even gift it? Tyvm in advance.


By that you mean he averts his eyes when you miss the hole for the umpteenth time .


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 20, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Very nice write-up and comparison!  I have some Mazda Cifte's that are probably different than what you have, but they share the same treble-centric presentation.  They have a lot of nice qualities for my ears and preferences, but I never could get past that (sometimes) sizzly top end.  Perhaps in a darker sounding amp or one that would benefit from some more treble energy they could be the ticket.
> 
> But wait until you try the Footscray.  Pretty nice right out of the box, but give it 25 hours (or so) of break-in and it really blossoms.


Yeah, the Cifte's should be less treble centric than the silver anodes as well, but they suit my amp quite nicely. You're right they can be difficult, I go through phases and put it in every now and again for a change and when I do I always marvel at the clarity and soundstage, but the music has to be right for that tube, too thin and they don't work.

I will give the Footscray some burn in as  you say and come back with a brief comparison to see if there are any differences between the older and newer tubes.

What I've heard so far really just confirms what a great tube the Philips is and that it is end game for me, but we will see!

Edit: The Philips was a happy accident, I thought it was a Mazda, or even Mullard until I got it and looked at the etched codes!


----------



## baronbeehive

leftside said:


> Here are two of my favourite 12AT7 I was talking about. Two on the left are Mullard Mitcham and two on the right are Philips Eindhoven. 1953 and 1954. Slightly earlier will cost a lot more as rhe 1952 have the rarer welded plates/anodes.


The Philips with the larger "O" getter?


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Thanks!  My primary reason for being here is to caddy for abuse UT, but I _do_ have other hobbies. Just don't tell him or he'll cut my pay.


You *have* to have other hobbies.. watching UT miss the hole for the umpteenth time isn't good for the sanity  .


----------



## UntilThen

Tonight I use the feedback switch on EL11 for the first time. It's very quiet.  Very pleased that this switch is implemented. Thanks Tomas. This is something I wouldn't have thought of as I know nothing about it.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Thank you ! All I have is a iPhone 11 Pro Max. I have no skills.


Same here, auto setting works every time .


----------



## baronbeehive

leftside said:


> Wow. Those look amazing. Didn't realize you were so talented and did restorations. I thought you were just here to abuse UT haha.


Looks like bcowen is good at both!

@bcowen what's involved in restoration and calibration?


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Same here, auto setting bias works every time .



Fixed that for you. Philips Miniwatt EL11 and Tung Sol 6550 with feedback switch on is so sweet sounding with pitch black background. No reduction in power as far as I can tell. Volume is still 9 o'clock for He1000se.


----------



## leftside

baronbeehive said:


> The Philips with the larger "O" getter?


D getters. The O getters didn't come until later - around end of 1957/beginning of 1958.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Aug 20, 2021)

bcowen said:


> This is my favorite, the 752A.  Perfect for lazy people like me as it has a '2nd plate' button that you just push rather than having to re-do other settings for dual triode tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Love the look of these old testers, inspiration for the aesthetics of my 801A amp.  Beautiful collection!

I have a Jackson 648-R I restored, but unfortunately it started acting up recently and I think one of the transformers is shot


----------



## SonicTrance

L0rdGwyn said:


> I have a Jackson 648-R I restored, but unfortunately it started acting up recently and I think one of the transformers is shot


That's really unfortunate! Transformers and meters are the two things that's irreplaceable in testers, unless you manage to get a custom transformer for a decent price of course.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm still waiting for Bcowen's Hickok 752A. With all the testers he has, I'd imagine he is a tube seller on eBay.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Eh... we've been good friends, can you sell me one of those cheap? Or even gift it? Tyvm in advance.


Says the guy with $250k worth of HP amps and tubes.   

But what are friends for.  I'll be happy to gift you one, but the shipping will be $999.  And that's USD.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Says the guy with $250k worth of HP amps and tubes.


That is Aussie $ so in USD it is a measly $178,246


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> Nice testers! I have a Heathkit TT1A that I've restored and calibrated. Nice tester, pretty easy to work on unless there's a wiring issue.


Thanks!  I found a pristine (as in looked like it had never been used) TT-1A a while back.  Got it for an unbelievable price, and then the seller handed it to the Post Office in Oregon for its trip to NC, nicely packaged with only a piece of tape over the lid to hold it closed.  Arrived with lots _more_ tape that I assume the PO applied when parts started falling out along the way.  I was sooooooo bummed, as the TT-1A's are awesome testers and this one was gorgeous.  And then the jerk wouldn't refund my money claiming it wasn't his fault....the PO damaged it so it was my problem.  LOL!  Ebay refunded me, and I only hope they charged him a big wad of cash for the return shipping.  I _did_ tape it nicely back together for the return trip.  

This is how it arrived:






And this was after I started peeling the tape (just to see if there was any hope).  Grrrrrrrrr.


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> I use a small one, a modern model:
> https://www.radioelec.com/lampemetre-en-valise-xml-352_387-1507.html
> For octals it is fine and I do not need something else. Easy to use, fine for octal and noval sockets.


That looks pretty sweet!


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> You *have* to have other hobbies.. watching UT miss the hole for the umpteenth time isn't good for the sanity  .


But it _does_ make me laugh, which is always a good thing.


----------



## UntilThen

Bcowen I want the address now. I'll be on the next flight over.... is that Detroit?


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey greets the world again on a fine Sat morning. It's been one week and one day since arriving home and in that time it's 8 hours or more a day. Would you believe, the amp is just lukewarm after an 8 hours day? The chassis is still cool to the touch except the mains transformer and tubes. 

I'm back on a Psvane KT88 Tii with Raytheon 6sn7gt black glass mother of pearl tube....  KT88 is the native power tube in Odyssey so it's no surprise it plays so well. 

Socket savers on. Can't afford to destroy those Yamamotos.


----------



## bcowen (Aug 20, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> Looks like bcowen is good at both!
> 
> @bcowen what's involved in restoration and calibration?


Replacing all the electrolytic capacitors is step one.  Most electrolytics (even modern ones) have a lifespan of maybe 20 - 25 years if they are juiced conservatively and kept reasonably cool.  50+ year old caps?  Usually way off value if they still work at all, and if they do work it's not a matter of *if* they will go, but when...and _when_ is going to be very soon at that age. After replacing those, I'll test the internal tubes and replace if needed, then bring it up slowly with a variac. If nothing goes boom when set to the working voltages, I'll try and calibrate it. Most that I've done will calibrate without extreme effort -- a few adjustments if they have pots or checking for resistors that have gone off spec (or broken in half, which happens a lot with old carbon comp resistors). If it won't calibrate, then the fun begins finding the problem. I've only had one I couldn't fix, and I suspect the transformer has some shorted windings. After that it's a lot of cleaning, both cosmetically and electrically, and then working on aesthetics of the faceplate and outer case. And it's the latter part that takes the most time.


----------



## UntilThen

^^ this post deserves a double like. You’re more than a caddie. Now let’s talk about the tester you are restoring for me.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Bcowen I want the address now. I'll be on the next flight over.... is that Detroit?


No, Detroit is where you'll change planes to get to paradise.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I'm still waiting for Bcowen's Hickok 752A. With all the testers he has, I'd imagine he is a tube seller on eBay.


Would probably be easier to get my WE 300B's than my 752A.  But now that you mention it, I've been remiss in getting the 752A into my will.  Need to remedy that.


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> That is Aussie $ so in USD it is a measly $178,246


LOL!  If you move the decimal point three places left, then you'll know what he paid me for a whole year of caddying.  I'm pretty sure he sold the Akai for more than that, even though it was worth way less.


----------



## UntilThen

This is paradise. On my Nike pounding the pavement now.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> This is paradise. On my Nike pounding the pavement now.


Looks kind of brown.  Is that Detroit?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

SonicTrance said:


> That's really unfortunate! Transformers and meters are the two things that's irreplaceable in testers, unless you manage to get a custom transformer for a decent price of course.



Yep, it is done for unfortunately.  Could buy another on the cheap and harvest the transformer, but I will probably sell it for parts.  I have a curve tracer that I use for testing, but still it was a very cool piece of gear to have around!


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey arrived on the 13th of Aug 2021. Today is 21st Aug 2021. It's just over one week but it feels like I have Odyssey for a long time now. That's because I've been using this amp everyday for 8 hours or more.

While listening to music with Apple Music in lossless format, I reread my correspondences with Tomas since Feb 2021. What a journey it has been. So many hurdles along the way but everything turned out just fine when the amp is finally finished. 

I particularly remember Tomas explaining to me the way Sowter did the secondary winding on the output transformers. It makes it hard to wire up the different headphone impedance but Sowter did that to get better HF response. It's no wonder the high frequencies are outstanding to my ears now. I've not heard music sounding the way it is now. Clarity and details are outstanding and the bass has that nice thump. However it's the holographic presentation of the music that I hear that is mesmerising me. Soundstage is multi dimensions. ! Micro and macro details are hauntingly hypnotizing. Odyssey tone is lush and tight. It is as quiet as Oblivion .... which is very quiet. The amp is also cool after 8 hours of operation. Power seems limitless with LCD4 and makes Hekse sound like a different headphone. 

It has been an incredible built journey and the amp is all mine to enjoy now. My thanks to Tomas. You have produce an amp that sound better than it looks.


----------



## UntilThen

The only thing more beautiful than Odyssey is my Sydney Rock Orchids. It's in full bloom now.


----------



## SonicTrance

bcowen said:


> Thanks!  I found a pristine (as in looked like it had never been used) TT-1A a while back.  Got it for an unbelievable price, and then the seller handed it to the Post Office in Oregon for its trip to NC, nicely packaged with only a piece of tape over the lid to hold it closed.  Arrived with lots _more_ tape that I assume the PO applied when parts started falling out along the way.  I was sooooooo bummed, as the TT-1A's are awesome testers and this one was gorgeous.  And then the jerk wouldn't refund my money claiming it wasn't his fault....the PO damaged it so it was my problem.  LOL!  Ebay refunded me, and I only hope they charged him a big wad of cash for the return shipping.  I _did_ tape it nicely back together for the return trip.
> 
> This is how it arrived:
> 
> ...


Wow! What a shame on such a nice device! My eyes hurt!


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey arrived on the 13th of Aug 2021. Today is 21st Aug 2021. It's just over one week but it feels like I have Odyssey for a long time now. That's because I've been using this amp everyday for 8 hours or more.
> 
> While listening to music with Apple Music in lossless format, I reread my correspondences with Tomas since Feb 2021. What a journey it has been. So many hurdles along the way but everything turned out just fine when the amp is finally finished.
> 
> ...


This makes me happy to hear! The biggest reward from building amps is to make people happy!


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> This is how it arrived:
> 
> 
> And this was after I started peeling the tape (just to see if there was any hope).  Grrrrrrrrr.


Ha! I used to work for the Royal Mail, and I know what goes on with packages trust me! Fortunately they are automated now, and the machines are much gentler .


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 21, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey greets the world again on a fine Sat morning. It's been one week and one day since arriving home and in that time it's 8 hours or more a day.


I have calculated that the total time spent in putting tubes in and out of those sockets is _*one trillion and 270 thousand and 1 years*_. According to my calculations that is RxPxDxTxS where R=the number of rectifiers, P=the number of power tubes, and D=the number of driver tubes in your possession. T=the time it takes to remove a tube and S=the session time.

NB: It may be a *conservative estimate*.

Fortunately I'm pleased to tell you that those Yamamoto sockets will still be fully functional by then .

Edit: I suggest you try cryogenics in order to get the full enjoyment when the time exceeds your current life span .


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> If it won't calibrate, then the fun begins finding the problem.


Haha! Tell me about it.


bcowen said:


> After that it's a lot of cleaning, both cosmetically and electrically, and then working on aesthetics of the faceplate and outer case. And it's the latter part that takes the most time.


I used to enjoy cleaning the insides of the amp, after all the hard work has been done. And it's necessary anyway to remove offending blobs of solder, wire etc.

Thanks for the info!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> This is paradise. On my Nike *Bike* pounding the pavement now.


Fixed that for you .


----------



## UntilThen

Baron Bee Hive.    For you I'll show my speakers listening session tonight. Odyssey in UL mode with EL11 and 807 tubes supported by the one and only General Electric 5u4g. Speakers are singing loud and clear with full body tube tone, with sparkling highs.


----------



## UntilThen (Aug 21, 2021)

For a bit of Moulin Rouge.


----------



## UntilThen

Speakers sound so good with amplification from Odyssey. This is soundstage, no longer headstage.  It's so crystal clear and yet lush with meat to the bones. Now this is BASS.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> Thanks!  I found a pristine (as in looked like it had never been used) TT-1A a while back.  Got it for an unbelievable price, and then the seller handed it to the Post Office in Oregon for its trip to NC, nicely packaged with only a piece of tape over the lid to hold it closed.  Arrived with lots _more_ tape that I assume the PO applied when parts started falling out along the way.  I was sooooooo bummed, as the TT-1A's are awesome testers and this one was gorgeous.  And then the jerk wouldn't refund my money claiming it wasn't his fault....the PO damaged it so it was my problem.  LOL!  Ebay refunded me, and I only hope they charged him a big wad of cash for the return shipping.  I _did_ tape it nicely back together for the return trip.
> 
> This is how it arrived:
> 
> ...



What a dope!  That is absolutely criminal.


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey peaked before my eyes and ears tonight. Tubes used are EL11 and EL12 spez. If I didn't believe in burn in, I do now. It's transformed. Will it get better in the coming days? Most likely.

I must have heard 'Private Investigations' countless times but what I just heard is really good.  Trying very hard not to be carried away with superlatives. Trying to keep calm and just enjoy the music but that is not easy. Odyssey is a monster. It's sucking me into the abyss.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> It's sucking me into the Abyss 1266 Phi TC.


Fixed that for you.


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> Fixed that for you.


Not a bad Abyss to be sucked into!


----------



## baronbeehive

@bcowen that Brimar is already sounding good at low volume during burn in, probably hear it properly on monday!


----------



## Galapac

UntilThen said:


> For a bit of Moulin Rouge.


Awesome! All you need now is a little green and that music will sound even better, lol!


----------



## UntilThen

Galapac said:


> Awesome! All you need now is a little green and that music will sound even better, lol!


Your wish is my command.


----------



## UntilThen

Waking up, I thought last night magic would have disappeared. It's still there and even more as I flick the switch to use 6SL7 as driver with no feedback and EL12 spez in the power slots.

Odyssey will change forever how I listen to music. The bass from Hekse is like a new headphone. 'Here Comes the Sun' 2019 mix by the Beatles overwhelmed me with the guitar, drums and George Harrison's voice.

I'm just thinking out loud. If Tomas can do this to a KT88 amp, he could do this to a 300b amp with Sowter transformers, with the ability to use 2a3 and definitely tube rectification.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> I'm just thinking out loud. If Tomas can do this to a KT88 amp, he could do this to a 300b amp with Sowter transformers, with the ability to use 2a3 and definitely tube rectification.


And such an amp might be pretty good. Not endgame for everybody but listenable. Maybe.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> And such an amp might be pretty good. Not endgame for everybody but listenable. Maybe.



Endgame is a myth because progress must be made.  I await the arrival of EL156 because I believe the best is yet to come in Odyssey. That and with a Mullard ECC35.


----------



## ThanatosVI

UntilThen said:


> Endgame is a myth because progress must be made.  I await the arrival of EL156 because I believe the best is yet to come in Odyssey. That and with a Mullard ECC35.


Maybe not necessarily progress, but change.


----------



## UntilThen

ThanatosVI said:


> Maybe not necessarily progress, but change.



Only 3 things in life are certain. Birth, death and change.  

It takes time to find out what you prefer. LCD4 came about 5 months after Hekse and I was fixated on it when it came but I have a preference for Hekse now. The early stages of Odyssey design, I wanted an amp to drive any headphones but I was also worried that a powerful amp will have a harder task to make it quiet with headphones, especially the low impedance ones. I must have reiterated this to Tomas countless times. He assured me that he will make it as quiet and cool as possible. I needn't have worried because when the amp came and when I tried it with Hekse, it was dead quiet.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> @bcowen that Brimar is already sounding good at low volume during burn in, probably hear it properly on monday!


Cool!  I don't usually go on about any particular tube because so much is dependent on personal preference, system synergy, etc. , but this one just caught me off guard.  I _really_ wanted to go back to the Mjolnir thread and tell all those guys their hearing was defective, but no joy on that.     

I'm breaking in my just-arrived new toy for the Atticus -- a Norne Audio cable.  My first purchase from them, but their cables get a ton of positive comments.  Workmanship is top notch.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Cool! I don't usually go on about any particular tube because so much is dependent on personal preference, system synergy, etc. , but this one just caught me off guard. I _really_ wanted to go back to the Mjolnir thread and tell all those guys their hearing was defective, but no joy on that.
> 
> I'm breaking in my just-arrived new toy for the Atticus -- a Norne Audio cable. My first purchase from them, but their cables get a ton of positive comments. Workmanship is top notch.



I'll hate you for this because my curiosity will make me buy that Brimar.  Secondly I've been very attracted to Norne Audio cables. Congrats on your new headphone cable.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Not a bad Abyss to be sucked into!



Hmmm, abyss wasn't in my dictionary until lately. When I tried it at an audio meet several years ago, I told myself I will never buy that contraption. Now I actually think it looks great. Funny how your perception changes over time.

@paramesh send me a picture of his new toy with CFA3, Kevin Gilmore SS design. I can't wait to try Abyss with Odyssey.


----------



## OctavianH

Honestly they are ugly but what matters is how they sound.


----------



## UntilThen

This hobby is too engaging. Must do everything in moderation. I have gone climbing the hill again for Summit-Fi,


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I'll hate you for this because my curiosity will make me buy that Brimar.  Secondly I've been very attracted to Norne Audio cables. Congrats on your new headphone cable.


Wait... I'll give you and bcowen my impressions on tuesday!


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 22, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Only 3 .. *4* things in life are certain. Birth, death and change.


.... and the rent man .


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 22, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Cool!  I don't usually go on about any particular tube because so much is dependent on personal preference, system synergy, etc. , but this one just caught me off guard.  I _really_ wanted to go back to the Mjolnir thread and tell all those guys their hearing was defective, but no joy on that.
> 
> I'm breaking in my just-arrived new toy for the Atticus -- a Norne Audio cable.  My first purchase from them, but their cables get a ton of positive comments.  Workmanship is top notch.


Nice cables!

When I do get a cable upgrade I will just get the Neotech OCC silver/gold, pure metal nothing added or taken away!

Yeah, me too, I don't like focussing any tube too much, I know what I like, often not what others like! I must say of all the tubes I've tried the Brimar, the 6SN7 in this case a while ago, is the one that I remember most because of the euphony and the powerful presentation. As I said I never really got used to that and settled for the more laid back TS6SL7 but I keep thinking about the Brimar! It is probably the tube most like the Mullard IMO.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Yeah, me too, I don't like focussing any tube too much, I know what I like, often not what others like! I must say of all the tubes I've tried the Brimar, the 6SN7 in this case a while ago, is the one that I remember most because of the euphony and the powerful presentation. As I said I never really got used to that and settled for the more laid back TS6SL7 but I keep thinking about the Brimar! It is probably the tube most like the Mullard IMO.



I do focus on what tubes I want to use and I know what tubes will give me the tone I want for the occasion. Tonight, it's winding down to the end of the weekend so I need something relaxing and yet have sufficient top end sparkle. 

So my choice of tubes for tonight is the Brimar 12au7 long plates + Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 single 'O' getter + Philips Eindhoven Holland 1957 August GZ34 metal base. These tubes are so quiet in Odyssey. Quietness is important to me because if a tube is noisy, I'll put it aside even if they are good tubes.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 22, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I do focus on what tubes I want to use and I know what tubes will give me the tone I want for the occasion. Tonight, it's winding down to the end of the weekend so I need something relaxing and yet have sufficient top end sparkle.
> 
> So my choice of tubes for tonight is the Brimar 12au7 long plates + Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 single 'O' getter + Philips Eindhoven Holland 1957 August GZ34 metal base. These tubes are so quiet in Odyssey. Quietness is important to me because if a tube is noisy, I'll put it aside even if they are good tubes.


Good choice.. and you will get some of that great Brimar tone!

Speaking of which.. the burn in finishes today!

Edit: Something tells me you're in for an evening of enjoyment .


----------



## UntilThen

I am.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Nice cables!
> 
> When I do get a cable upgrade I will just get the Neotech OCC silver/gold, pure metal nothing added or taken away!
> 
> Yeah, me too, I don't like focussing any tube too much, I know what I like, often not what others like! I must say of all the tubes I've tried the Brimar, the 6SN7 in this case a while ago, is the one that I remember most because of the euphony and the powerful presentation. As I said I never really got used to that and settled for the more laid back TS6SL7 but I keep thinking about the Brimar! It is probably the tube most like the Mullard IMO.


Thanks!  The cable I use for my HD-6XX's is DIY and braided from Neotech copper.  Substantial improvement over the stock cable, but then the stock cable pretty much sucked to begin with.  I'd given some thought to putting one together for the Atticus with the Neo silver/gold, but as you need approx. 30' to end up with a 6' finished cable it'd be over $500 just for the wire and connectors.  That was a bit too much to risk for me.  May have been glorious.  But 50/50 chance of maybe not.    So I decided to go with something I could easily sell if it didn't make me smile.  If/when you make one with the Neotech silver/gold, let me know how it turns out!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I am.


Wait.....you got a purple one too?  Hoarder.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> .... and the rent man .


...and *5 *(the most important):  the quantity of NOS tubes from the 1950's will never increase.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> ...and *5 *(the most important): the quantity of NOS tubes from the 1950's will never increase.


I think NOS means NOW OUT OF STOCK .


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 22, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Thanks!  The cable I use for my HD-6XX's is DIY and braided from Neotech copper.  Substantial improvement over the stock cable, but then the stock cable pretty much sucked to begin with.  I'd given some thought to putting one together for the Atticus with the Neo silver/gold, but as you need approx. 30' to end up with a 6' finished cable it'd be over $500 just for the wire and connectors.  That was a bit too much to risk for me.  May have been glorious.  But 50/50 chance of maybe not.    So I decided to go with something I could easily sell if it didn't make me smile.  If/when you make one with the Neotech silver/gold, let me know how it turns out!


Yes, taking a bit of a chance. But several people have done this and swear by the results.

Luckily I sit right by the amp so with a slight lean to one side I could manage a 5 or 6 metres of pure silver . Nothing in reserve though if I fall asleep listening!

Edit: And I might have to melt down that gold .


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I'll hate you for this because my curiosity will make me buy that Brimar.  Secondly I've been very attracted to Norne Audio cables. Congrats on your new headphone cable.


From the creative mind of the illustrious @jonathan c .  My (calibrated) measurements indicate a 6.37% improvement in sound by wearing this while listening.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Wait.....you got a purple one too?  Hoarder.



I've got more tones than colors. 101 to be precise. NOS EL34 are really beautiful sounding tubes.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> ...and *5 *(the most important): the quantity of NOS tubes from the 1950's will never increase.


Bangy Bang would disagree with you!


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> Bangy Bang would disagree with you!


 OK, the quantity of un-relabeled NOS tubes from the 1950's then.


----------



## LoryWiv

baronbeehive said:


> Nice cables!
> 
> When I do get a cable upgrade I will just get the Neotech OCC silver/gold, pure metal nothing added or taken away!
> 
> Yeah, me too, I don't like focussing any tube too much, I know what I like, often not what others like! I must say of all the tubes I've tried the Brimar, the 6SN7 in this case a while ago, is the one that I remember most because of the euphony and the powerful presentation. As I said I never really got used to that and settled for the more laid back TS6SL7 but I keep thinking about the Brimar! It is probably the tube most like the Mullard IMO.


 I had and sold a pair of Brimar 6SN7. I found them to be very analytic, powerful presentation as you say be not very musical. Analogy would be that of a studio monitoring headphone rather than one best-suited for enjoying music. The Brimars were the former. Clearly a well-constructed tube, though, and I would be interested in trying another Brimar tube type in the future.


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> From the creative mind of the illustrious @jonathan c .  My (calibrated) measurements indicate a 6.37% improvement in sound by wearing this while listening.


Handsome shirt, although I'm still having difficulty getting over the immediate association that "Footscray" sounds like something one would use to treat toenail fungus.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> I had and sold a pair of Brimar 6SN7. I found them to be very analytic, powerful presentation as you say be not very musical. Analogy would be that of a studio monitoring headphone rather than one best-suited for enjoying music. The Brimars were the former. Clearly a well-constructed tube, though, and I would be interested in trying another Brimar tube type in the future.


My experience is quite similar.  I mentioned earlier (I think?) that I've never been much of a Brimar fanboy, but this Footscray is different.  As is the Brimar 6BQ7A which I've found to be very musically engaging.  With the 6SN7's I would imagine there are different flavors and presentations depending on when they were manufactured, and perhaps I've not yet stumbled on the best ones.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Handsome shirt, although I'm still having difficulty getting over the immediate association that "Footscray" sounds like something one would use to treat toenail fungus.


LOL!  Well, you know how those Brits are.  They call a car's hood a 'bonnet' and the trunk a 'boot'.  And to think they started speaking English way before us 'Mericans.


----------



## triod750

I had forgotten this. I am getting old.

 "Telefunken was a German radio and television apparatus company, founded in Berlin in 1903, as a joint venture of Siemens & Halske and the Allgemeine ElektricitÃ¤ts-Gesellschaft (A.E.G). In 1967 Telefunken were merged with AEG and the company renamed AEG-Telefunken. In 1985 the Telefunken name was dropped. The Telefunken name is one we associate with rare and valuable valves which are some of the best sounding valves ever made".

The quote comes from Watford Valves. I don't know who 'we' in the last sentence are.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> I had forgotten this. I am getting old.
> 
> "Telefunken was a German radio and television apparatus company, founded in Berlin in 1903, as a joint venture of Siemens & Halske and the Allgemeine ElektricitÃ¤ts-Gesellschaft (A.E.G). In 1967 Telefunken were merged with AEG and the company renamed AEG-Telefunken. In 1985 the Telefunken name was dropped. The Telefunken name is one we associate with rare and valuable valves which are some of the best sounding valves ever made".
> 
> The quote comes from Watford Valves. I don't know who 'we' in the last sentence are.



That is correct. The 'Berlin' tubes combination are Telefunken. Using EL11 as one of the key drivers in Odyssey is a decision I'm glad Tomas and I agree upon. Chose that over L63 / 6J5, which are also good.

The 'we' are Watford Valves and me.


----------



## UntilThen

I also like British (GEC & Mullard) and Philips (Miniwatt) tubes. Not forgetting some of the American ones, notably the original Tung Sol. The 6550s from the 1960s are one of my favorite power tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Tung-Sol was an old hand at electron tubes and such. Starting in 1907 they developed the first successful electric headlamp for cars, they followed that in 1913 with the two filament high and low beam headlight in a single bulb. They also developed the flashing turn signal, and made that little thing that goes click, click under the dashboard for almost every American car until the 1970's, yes, we all grew up listening to Tung-Sol. In the 1920's they entered the electronics field and applied their basic company policy "make the best that can be made." They were leaders along with R.C.A. in the development of sophisticated, statistical quality control systems and one of the greatest qualities of Tung-Sol tubes to this day is consistancy! Tung-Sol's greatest contribution to the world of audio was the 6550, conceived and developed for Hi-Fi and introduced in 1955 this tube is still powering many of the world's greatest sound systems 45 years later! Tung-Sol was a privately held company and was run like a laboratory this gave T-S tubes some of the best metallurgy and chemistry that has ever been pulled off in actual production. Source: Vintage Tube Services

There you go - 6550


----------



## UntilThen

Toe tapping and shoulders moving to start the day. It's 10 days of Odyssey and an important milestone in my audio journey. This should also be an important milestone in Ultrasonic Studios journey because this amp is crazy good in it's tone. What a sonic signature.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Tung-Sol was an old hand at electron tubes and such. Starting in 1907 they developed the first successful electric headlamp for cars, they followed that in 1913 with the two filament high and low beam headlight in a single bulb. They also developed the flashing turn signal, and made that little thing that goes click, click under the dashboard for almost every American car until the 1970's, yes, we all grew up listening to Tung-Sol. In the 1920's they entered the electronics field and applied their basic company policy "make the best that can be made." They were leaders along with R.C.A. in the development of sophisticated, statistical quality control systems and one of the greatest qualities of Tung-Sol tubes to this day is consistancy! Tung-Sol's greatest contribution to the world of audio was the 6550, conceived and developed for Hi-Fi and introduced in 1955 this tube is still powering many of the world's greatest sound systems 45 years later! Tung-Sol was a privately held company and was run like a laboratory this gave T-S tubes some of the best metallurgy and chemistry that has ever been pulled off in actual production. Source: Vintage Tube Services
> 
> There you go - 6550


No doubt the TS 6550 was a great contribution, but let's not forget the domino plate 5998.  Co-greatest, perhaps.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> No doubt the TS 6550 was a great contribution, but let's not forget the domino plate 5998.  Co-greatest, perhaps.



Subjectively, having both in my possession now, albeit used in different amps, it's a no contest. 5998 used in my Wa22 and 6550 in Odyssey.

However I won't bag 5998 because it's a good tube in GOTL and La Figaro 339i too and I have the perfect match pair bought NOS. It's just that 6550 is a bigger number than 5998.


----------



## UntilThen

I have a power conditioner / filter or regeneration (or whatever you want to call it) coming today and it will change my world - that's what the guy who sold it to me claims. It's not your fancy pants PS Audio. These are units supplied to Telecommunication companies.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Cool!  I don't usually go on about any particular tube because so much is dependent on personal preference, system synergy, etc. , but this one just caught me off guard.  I _really_ wanted to go back to the Mjolnir thread and tell all those guys their hearing was defective, but no joy on that.
> 
> I'm breaking in my just-arrived new toy for the Atticus -- a Norne Audio cable.  My first purchase from them, but their cables get a ton of positive comments.  Workmanship is top notch.


Trevor at Norne is a true artisan!


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> This hobby is too engaging. Must do everything in moderation. I have gone climbing the hill again for Summit-Fi,


Oscar Wilde: “nothing succeeds like excess.”


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Oscar Wilde: “nothing succeeds like excess.”



I'll come back to you on success and excess.

The power wonder brick arrived. Without wasting a single minute, I re-connected all my equipment and power on Odyssey. I didn't think it will make any difference but there is a real difference. Like Jimmy Cliff, I can see clearly now.


----------



## OctavianH

Ah, you've started to improve power. Nice, I've done this and honestly it was around 30% improvement. LOL
Linear power supplies, power conditioners and filters and stuff. Yep.

PS. Yes, I know, I never thought that.


----------



## UntilThen

Which leads me back to success and excess. Success is when any upgrades contributes to better SQ and fidelity. Excess is when you spend needlessly on expensive cables, etc. I was shocked when a friend of mine told me he paid $5000 for a pair of interconnects. By all means get better ones but not to that extreme.


----------



## OctavianH

Well, with interconnects there is a simple solution: Neotech NEI-2001 Silver UPOCC. I've learned this from @hypnos1 and asked a local guy to manufacture me a pair of 1m RCA-RCA from these, never looked on other cables. They need 200-300 hours to shine, but later if you put back your previous pairs (even some decent ones) you realize you cannot go back. There is a downside that these are a white weapon, not flexible almost at all, but soundwise, I am done. Later I found that others followed the same path. Using a local guy to make me these cables took me around 500 EUR with some good connectors (WBT) but I doubt I can find better cables, so I am not searching anymore.
If someone wants to try to make some cables like these, be careful in choosing the connectors, I know not all fit this thick cable.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 23, 2021)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Well, you know how those Brits are.  They call a car's hood a 'bonnet' and the trunk a 'boot'.  And to think they started speaking English way before us 'Mericans.


...and you call trousers "pants", which is our underwear if I can say that on this thread. We gave up trying to teach you the "Queens English" .


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 23, 2021)

triod750 said:


> I had forgotten this. I am getting old.
> 
> "Telefunken was a German radio and television apparatus company, founded in Berlin in 1903, as a joint venture of Siemens & Halske and the Allgemeine ElektricitÃ¤ts-Gesellschaft (A.E.G). In 1967 Telefunken were merged with AEG and the company renamed AEG-Telefunken. In 1985 the Telefunken name was dropped. The Telefunken name is one we associate with rare and valuable valves which are some of the best sounding valves ever made".
> 
> The quote comes from Watford Valves. I don't know who 'we' in the last sentence are.


The "we" would be Watford valves I think, that sounds like one of their many reports on different tube types and their sounds.

Like LoryWiv and bcowen with the Brimars I found Telefunken to be extremely analytic tubes not for me, maybe I didn't stick with it long enough!

Edit: Just seen UT's post.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 23, 2021)

bcowen said:


> My experience is quite similar.  I mentioned earlier (I think?) that I've never been much of a Brimar fanboy, but this Footscray is different.  As is the Brimar 6BQ7A which I've found to be very musically engaging.  With the 6SN7's I would imagine there are different flavors and presentations depending on when they were manufactured, and perhaps I've not yet stumbled on the best ones.


That's pretty much the opposite from me. But you are right there are different types. I noticed UT had round plates with black glass and base, I had CV1988 with the cylindrical plates and gold speckled brown base and clear glass. The problem I had, they were just too powerful and in your face, whereas the Tungsol had a beautiful linear type response with great harmonic overtones and liquidity as well as detail, so much easier to listen to.

Edit: I'm wondering if the Footscray will be similarly powerful, maybe too much so. That's why I like the Philips in my baby speaker amp, it has the power but not overly so, I think it is a bit better balanced. I will soon find out about the Footscray tube anyway!


----------



## UntilThen

I am happy with all the tubes I already have. If I didn't buy anymore, I'd have been content too. I have moods too. There are times I prefer a delicate and relaxing tone. Other time I'd want all the punch and slam. Variety is the spice of life right?  

As you know it's Monday here and the end of day. I need some tsunami force. I've turn to EL11 and EL39. Some deep slow blues and you'll soak it all in.... especially with LCD4.  Another photo of this incredible sounding and good looking amp.


----------



## UntilThen

Just notice the blue color on top of the EL39 tubes. The only other time I've seen that is on my Genalex 300b tubes.


----------



## hypnos1 (Aug 23, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I'll come back to you on success and excess.
> 
> The power wonder brick arrived. Without wasting a single minute, I re-connected all my equipment and power on Odyssey. I didn't think it will make any difference but there is a real difference. Like Jimmy Cliff, I can see clearly now.



Ah M...glad to see you've finally succumbed to the joys of mains power conditioning lol!  For years I myself have been trying to convince folks of the need for most of us to clean up what feeds all our delicate equipment...and is the carrier of our sound signal of course. And like your own example no doubt, mine (AirlinkTransformers Balanced Mains & Filter 'brick' scream) looks rather 'industrial', but I'm sure performs equally to a much prettier PSAudio of the same spec for a fraction of the price!! .
Now, as for _cables_ - another crusade of mine - top grade ones can indeed bring a good coat of icing to the table...but at a price that most folks will surely wince at. Fortunately, as @OctavianH discovered, if one can find someone to make up some at a reasonable cost, using mono crystal wire (such as Neotech's UPOCC silver or copper - or both!), then the pain can be very much lessened. And with a bit of soldering experience, one can really hit the jackpot via DIY...remembering OH's recommendation to use high quality connectors. The latter option also makes it more feasible to emulate the approach of some amazing cables by SynergisticResearch - eg their Galileo SX IC : ($7,500!!!)



ie. to have _separate_, twisted cables for pos and return per channel...both using the same wire(s). I personally have used this method also for my hp cable; separating USB signal from power; digital coax cable, and AC/DC power cables. And all using said OCC wire. The results of not only using this amazing wire, but such construction also reducing capacitance and inductance, can be quite surprising...depending on the rest of the system of course...and...ssshhh...one's hearing lol! 


UntilThen said:


> Just notice the blue color on top of the EL39 tubes. The only other time I've seen that is on my Genalex 300b tubes.


Your EL11/EL39 amp looks absolutely gorgeous UT...WELL DONE!  And interesting to see that lovely blue glow from the 39s...something I never had from non configured-for use in my Euforia lol . And no doubt they sound even better also of course, being driven more to spec'n...lucky you, mon ami...CJ

ps. Would love to know how this tube combo (in your amp at least) sounds compared to a 300b based one you've tried...CHEERS!


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 23, 2021)

Yep, this is definately a Brimar alright, after 25 hour burn in there's all the power, the big sound, dynamics, and fullness, I didn't make the mistake of turning up the volume too early this time only to be blasted out later!

I think this merits a bit of discussion and @bcowen and @LoryWiv might be interested.

The Footscray Brimar is very similar to the later Brimar but on initial impressions I think it is possibly a tad better in all departments, fuller Mullard type sound, the timbre of every instrument is exactly right IMO, there is the accent on bass and mid bass and mids again but I think it is a tad more extended in the treble also. Guitars ring out forcefully, so does piano, vocals, bass guitar is very prominent, but the drums had me grinning because each component, kick drum, tomtom, snare, everything had the incredible depth of tone filling the room. I think all this definately puts the tube in the "special" category. I don't know what the guys in the Schillt Monir thread said or what @bcowen thought about the his Brimar 6BQ7A but it is definately not analytic, it is full and in your face and the instrument timbre is amazing IMO. Again soundstage depth is great and this is really "band playing in your living room a few foot away" stuff.

There's no doubt this is a fantastic tube, the question for me is can I get used to all that powerful presentation. It took me a while to get used to the Philips because it was more powerful than the Tungsol 5751 that I had before but I love it now, I would like to spend a bit more time with the tube before making my mind up because this is real kick ass stuff.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Your EL11/EL39 amp looks absolutely gorgeous UT...WELL DONE!  And interesting to see that lovely blue glow from the 39s...something I never had from non configured-for use in my Euforia lol . And no doubt they sound even better also of course, being driven more to spec'n...lucky you, mon ami...CJ
> 
> ps. Would love to know how this tube combo (in your amp at least) sounds compared to a 300b based one you've tried...CHEERS!



Morning CJ. The EL12 spez and EL39 have been spectacular in Odyssey. The other power tubes in KT88, EL34, 6550 and 807 are also great but these sound better on Odyssey to my ears. Together with EL11, their timbre and presentation are nigh perfect. I have given too much praise here to tubes but the Sowter transformers play a big part. Driven more to specs is the key and I'm totally fixated with my listening sessions.

I was totally in love with the 300b amp until Odyssey arrived. Eric did a good job with the 300b amp. However Odyssey has better precision, giving subtle nuances to any songs I listen to. I won't articulate differences between the 2 amps yet because it's still early days. I'll let my ears burn in to their tone with a longer period of time.

I have just switched over to the 300b amp and am still very impressed with what I hear. There's that magical mids and lovely bass. High frequencies are not exactly lacking too but that other tube combo is more linear in it's presentation.

Then there's Oblivion, which time and again never fail to impress me. Having such choices ain't making life easy for me. Describing them is even harder. All I can say is that I'm at a very good point in my audio journey.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> Yep, this is definately a Brimar alright, after 25 hour burn in there's all the power, the big sound, dynamics, and fullness, I didn't make the mistake of turning up the volume too early this time only to be blasted out later!
> 
> I think this merits a bit of discussion and @bcowen and @LoryWiv might be interested.
> 
> ...


Once a Footscrayer, always…


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> Once a Footscrayer, always…


Yes.. but I used the ointment this time .


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 23, 2021)

hypnos1 said:


> if one can find someone to make up some at a reasonable cost, using mono crystal wire (such as Neotech's UPOCC silver or copper - or both!), then the pain can be very much lessened. And with a bit of soldering experience, one can really hit the jackpot via DIY...remembering OH's recommendation to use high quality connectors. The latter option also makes it more feasible to emulate the approach of some amazing cables by SynergisticResearch - eg their Galileo SX IC : ($7,500!!!)


Shouldn't be difficult to do, all you need is to twist the wires possibly in Litz and solder the ends.. making sure you solder the correct ends of course!

The incentive is enough to save $7500!


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Once a Footscrayer, always…



I'm just wondering what a Footscray will do in Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Your EL11/EL39 amp looks absolutely gorgeous UT...WELL DONE!



CJ, I wish you could sample this amp. The EL11 / EL12 spez is equally good. More linear but the tone is amazing. Telefunken tubes at it's best. My gamble to collect these tubes paid off. If this is the last amp for me, it would be a fitting finale.


----------



## hypnos1

baronbeehive said:


> Shouldn't be difficult to do, all you need is to twist the wires possibly in Litz and solder the ends.. making sure you solder the correct ends of course!
> 
> The incentive is enough to save $7500!



Ah bb...not _quite_ so easy to do alas. The aim is to ensure further shielding of the already Teflon coated UPOCC wire (Neotech in my case) using either more Teflon tubing or expandable metal sheathing (preferably copper coated), then covered in expandable sleeving. This does however make for a rather cumbersome and heavy cable, especially if using _solid_ wire, which I personally prefer over more flexible stranded. Solid is also more brittle, so more care is needed in construction, especially at the connectors. 

But then, this combination of OCC wire and dual/separation principle allows for excellent interference suppression, with need for only minimal twisting and far superior to just laquer coated Litz wire(s) IMHO. And the possible inconvenience of a bulky cable is far outweighed by its performance....and certainly for a lot less than $7,500 lol!!


----------



## hypnos1

UntilThen said:


> CJ, I wish you could sample this amp. The EL11 / EL12 spez is equally good. More linear but the tone is amazing. Telefunken tubes at it's best. My gamble to collect these tubes paid off. If this is the last amp for me, it would be a fitting finale.


Yo UT...shame I don't have my own private jet to come visit you and sample your wares lol!  That truly is the most attractive and impressive look I've seen in a very long time. And, no doubt, does indeed sound tremendous to boot . I'm so glad you did gamble on those EL11s and 12 Spezs - as with the 38/39s, I always suspected they could do great things when properly configured for, given their performance in Euforia. German engineering at its best, surely...

And so M, I reckon you could well (like me) be very near to - or _at(?!) _your journey's end? Whatever, continue to immerse yourself in glorious sound...not that you need any encouraging, I'm sure lol!


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> And so M, I reckon you could well (like me) be very near to - or _at(?!) _your journey's end? Whatever, continue to immerse yourself in glorious sound...not that you need any encouraging, I'm sure lol!



It's time to return to the orchids.  By all means if things return to normality, do come and visit me and I'll be delighted to show you around. Here's to Elise that started it all and that seem so many moons ago.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 24, 2021)

hypnos1 said:


> Ah bb...not _quite_ so easy to do alas. The aim is to ensure further shielding of the already Teflon coated UPOCC wire (Neotech in my case) using either more Teflon tubing or expandable metal sheathing (preferably copper coated), then covered in expandable sleeving. This does however make for a rather cumbersome and heavy cable, especially if using _solid_ wire, which I personally prefer over more flexible stranded. Solid is also more brittle, so more care is needed in construction, especially at the connectors.
> 
> But then, this combination of OCC wire and dual/separation principle allows for excellent interference suppression, with need for only minimal twisting and far superior to just laquer coated Litz wire(s) IMHO. And the possible inconvenience of a bulky cable is far outweighed by its performance....and certainly for a lot less than $7,500 lol!!


@hypnos1 Hi there!

This is my rather basic, sadly, stock HiFiMan copper cable :





No shielding, or external sleeve. When I get the upgrade I will be sure to do as you say lol!
.

Edit: I've never really been a cable guy but I'm promising myself this one last push at some point.


----------



## hypnos1

baronbeehive said:


> @hypnos1 Hi there!
> 
> This is my rather basic, sadly, stock HiFiMan copper cable :
> 
> ...



Hope I've whetted your appetite bb...I'm sure you'd never regret it lol . But I must admit the task is somewhat trickier for hp cables - they can't be anywhere near as bulky/heavy as for ICs etc. of course. And the length required will also dictate the best option. With a _single_ wire each for pos and return, the preferred 'dual' method could just be manageable. Finally, in my own case however, I wanted to use _multi-_gauge Neotech wires - ie. 2x different AWG silver + 1x copper _per polarity_...so *12* in all lol!! Obviously I couldn't use the same approach here, but semi-braiding them (not easy!) and keeping both channels separated by covering with Hifi Collective's 'ABS Expandable Sleeving (Acoustic Dampener)' proved effective.

If one is able, trial and error will indicate the best solution for one's own needs - the absolute must being use of coated mono crystal (OCC) wire, silver being generally regarded as the best, if one can afford it. And the Neotech especially negates any previous doubts by some as to silver's (overly) treble character(?)...(but which I myself never actually experienced when using good quality, _soft-annealed _silver). But after OCC silver, I could never go back to anything else.

Good luck with whatever course you take...but don't forget your ICs lol! ...


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 24, 2021)

hypnos1 said:


> I wanted to use _multi-_gauge Neotech wires - ie. 2x different AWG silver + 1x copper _per polarity_...so *12* in all lol!! Obviously I couldn't use the same approach here, but semi-braiding them (not easy!) and keeping both channels separated by covering with Hifi Collective's 'ABS Expandable Sleeving (Acoustic Dampener)' proved effective.


Yes, I noticed you used different gauges of wire, that would normally be done for example a thinner gauge for ground, but why did you use 2 of different gauges in each run? Did you include the copper for SQ reasons?


hypnos1 said:


> And the Neotech especially negates any previous doubts by some as to silver's (overly) treble character(?)...(but which I myself never actually experienced when using good quality, _soft-annealed _silver). But after OCC silver, I could never go back to anything else.


No, I only experienced this with poor quality silver which is almost unlistenable.👍.


----------



## hypnos1

baronbeehive said:


> Yes, I noticed you used different gauges of wire, that would normally be done for example a thinner gauge for ground, but why did you use 2 of different gauges in each run? Did you include the copper for SQ reasons?
> 
> No, I only experienced this with poor quality silver which is almost unlistenable.👍.



Apologies firstly to this thread for sidetracking...but given the obvious quality of amps here, hopefully others might be encouraged to help maximise their potential a bit more.

Anyway bb, after much research on the ethos/methods behind top grade cables, I was intrigued by the uber-expensive guys' belief in the (slight) different sonic qualities according to the gauge of wire used. Marketing hype?...possibly... but this basic principle has been around for a long time. The same goes for copper vs silver, as found by most folks. And so if a multi approach is good enough for the big boys, it's good enough for me lol!   It may possibly be overkill, but I like to think it helps at least contribute to the cumulative effect of many small performance increments creating 'a bigger whole' (sic) :



And as for using thinner gauge(s) - or worse still, _inferior_ wire! - for ground/return, at such a level and using the best possible wire for signal/pos, I can't for the life of me see the merit in then having it paired with wire of a much poorer quality??!! ...(and as proposed by others far more experienced than I). That might be OK for lesser cables, but not anything higher up IMHO. As usual however, all will depend on whether the rest of the system can profit from its potential, and hence be worthwhile....

Here endeth the sermon lol......

ps. I know there are plenty of folks who - to put it politely, _doubt_ the merit of high-end cables and often (condescendingly) dismiss them and regard their owners as either just foolhardy or with 'more money than sense', but although there will certainly be _some_ who qualify thus, there will surely be more financially fortunate folks who are extremely _careful_ with their money and who don't waste it for no good reason! I count myself especially fortunate that my time in this hobby (here at head-fi) has given me the chance to learn a lot more and hone a few skills so that I can at least perhaps sample some of what otherwise I could never afford lol. And I've tasted the fruits of such 'foolhardiness' ....CHEERS!...


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 24, 2021)

hypnos1 said:


> Apologies firstly to this thread for sidetracking...but given the obvious quality of amps here, hopefully others might be encouraged to help maximise their potential a bit more.


No need to apologise, sidetracking is what we do here, and I'm as guilty as the next man 


hypnos1 said:


> Anyway bb, after much research on the ethos/methods behind top grade cables, I was intrigued by the uber-expensive guys' belief in the (slight) different sonic qualities according to the gauge of wire used. Marketing hype?...possibly... but this basic principle has been around for a long time. The same goes for copper vs silver, as found by most folks. And so if a multi approach is good enough for the big boys, it's good enough for me lol!   It may possibly be overkill, but I like to think it helps at least contribute to the cumulative effect of many small performance increments creating 'a bigger whole' (sic) :


Yes there are many things to take into account as you say and why not factor them all in, wire gauge, type, shielding, different metal mixes, even crystalline structure as in Neotech OCC wires, all have an effect I'm sure, I've done a bit of research too.


hypnos1 said:


> And as for using thinner gauge(s) - or worse still, _inferior_ wire! - for ground/return, at such a level and using the best possible wire for signal/pos, I can't for the life of me see the merit in then having it paired with wire of a much poorer quality??!! ...(and as proposed by others far more experienced than I). That might be OK for lesser cables, but not anything higher up IMHO. As usual however, all will depend on whether the rest of the system can profit from its potential, and hence be worthwhile....
> 
> Here endeth the sermon lol......



Haha. I thought I had stumbled onto a religious thread by mistake lol!

Talking of thinner or inferior wire, my Little Dot has some very inferior wire in it yet it still works well...  BUT it was a nightmare to work on as the thin tin wire would break at every opportunity and often you don't know this until something goes wrong and you spend ages trying to figure out what happened!
.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> No need to apologise, sidetracking is what we do here, and I'm as guilty as the next man



More guilty than me that is for sure but there's no way you can beat Bcowen.


----------



## UntilThen

My pure silver cable made lovingly with extreme artisan skills by @Yetiman72 . He will tell you the process and exact silver composition in it because I carried the golden Destiny-2 to him !

LCD4 has never sounded clearer. Thanks Shane.   Thank you thank you but could you do one where it's transparent and I can see the silver?


----------



## UntilThen

Like this one?


----------



## UntilThen

As you can see, I love silver. Even the headphone stand is silver.


----------



## UntilThen

The other rack is black gold though.


----------



## UntilThen

In memory of Charlie Watts.


----------



## hypnos1 (Aug 25, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> No need to apologise, sidetracking is what we do here, and I'm as guilty as the next man
> 
> Talking of thinner or inferior wire, my Little Dot has some very inferior wire in it yet it still works well...  BUT it was a nightmare to work on as *the thin tin wire* would break at every opportunity and often you don't know this until something goes wrong and you spend ages trying to figure out what happened!
> .



OUCH bb!..._*tin*_ wire?? ...I sincerely hope there's none of that in Oblivion/Odyssey etc. lol!!!......(kidding, of course ).

And as an addendum - finally folks, promise! - just to confirm the different sonic qualities of different metals, I must admit to replacing the thinner gauge OCC silver in my hp cable with some Neotech AG-GD UPOCC silver _with_ 1% gold (not _plated_), but at twice the price of their silver! And although stranded, I grudgingly admit it brought even more to the table - mostly in mid range detail and slightly enhanced FR extremes, (Edit : oh, and stage), plus a certain "Je ne sais quoi"...Fairy Dust perhaps?! Whatever, certainly something to consider if especially flush and able to have made up at reasonable cost, if not DIY...(hp cable that is, but NOT for ICs etc apparently - _too_ 'mellow', according to my uber-perfectionist (German!) fellow member Oliver, who _finally_ managed to overcome my misgivings!).

I shall now leave you in peace...and HAPPY LISTENING...


----------



## UntilThen

12 days out, chilling with 'Wicked Games' by Chris Issak.   Ken Rad 6sn7gt with EL39. Such a beautiful tone.  Odyssey is so wonderfully created. Only Tomas and I have seen the insides of the amp. With respect to the creator, I kept this to myself. It's the most beautiful interior I've seen.

What amaze me is every tube I've used sound great and now Ken Rad is contributing. The unmistakable sound of the black glass in combination with EL39. The convenience of switching from EL11 to 6sn7 is so versatile.


----------



## ThanatosVI

UntilThen said:


> 12 days out, chilling with 'Wicked Games' by Chris Issak.   Ken Rad 6sn7gt with EL39. Such a beautiful tone.  Odyssey is so wonderfully created. Only Tomas and I have seen the insides of the amp. With respect to the creator, I kept this to myself. It's the most beautiful interior I've seen.
> 
> What amaze me is every tube I've used sound great and now Ken Rad is contributing. The unmistakable sound of the black glass in combination with EL39. The convenience of switching from EL11 to 6sn7 is so versatile.


I'm happy for you.
I wonder how long your amazement will last.


----------



## UntilThen

ThanatosVI said:


> I'm happy for you.
> I wonder how long your amazement will last.



Thanks. It looks like the amazement will last forever.  The hours after dinner every night just slips away. From the low rumble and drums of 1917 Motion Picture Soundtrack 'Up the down trench' to realism of the acoustic guitar of 'Keith Don't Go' to the catchy tune of Simple Minds 'Don't you' and so on. It's clarity with a capital C and bass so weighted and tight, it's spell binding.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 25, 2021)

hypnos1 said:


> OUCH bb!..._*tin*_ wire??


The tin wire *has* been upgraded! Now silver plated copper, OCC copper, and OCC silver.. Neotech of course. 😉👍.

Still saving up for the HP cable.. hmmm maybe I will sell my granny.. wait a minute I haven't got a granny!


----------



## hypnos1

baronbeehive said:


> The tin wire *has* been upgraded! Now silver plated copper, OCC copper, and OCC silver.. Neotech of course. 😉👍.
> 
> Still saving up for the HP cable.. hmmm maybe I will sell my granny.. *wait a minute I haven't got a granny!*



Then _kidnap_ one lol! ...


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Still saving up for the HP cable Abyss 1266 Phi TC ..



There fix that up for you.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> The tin wire *has* been upgraded! Now silver plated copper, OCC copper, and OCC silver.. Neotech of course. 😉👍.
> 
> Still saving up for the HP cable.. hmmm maybe I will sell my granny.. wait a minute I haven't got a granny!


But you have a tranny…


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> There fix that up for you.


Don’t forget:  FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Don’t forget:  FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


What in the world is FTFY ?


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> What in the world is FTFY ?


How about Fixed This For You?


----------



## bcowen (Aug 25, 2021)

hypnos1 said:


> OUCH bb!..._*tin*_ wire?? ...I sincerely hope there's none of that in Oblivion/Odyssey etc. lol!!!......(kidding, of course ).
> 
> And as an addendum - finally folks, promise! - just to confirm the different sonic qualities of different metals, I must admit to replacing the thinner gauge OCC silver in my hp cable with some Neotech AG-GD UPOCC silver _with_ 1% gold (not _plated_), but at twice the price of their silver! And although stranded, I grudgingly admit it brought even more to the table - mostly in mid range detail and slightly enhanced FR extremes, (Edit : oh, and stage), plus a certain "Je ne sais quoi"...Fairy Dust perhaps?! Whatever, certainly something to consider if especially flush and able to have made up at reasonable cost, if not DIY...(hp cable that is, but NOT for ICs etc apparently - _too_ 'mellow', according to my uber-perfectionist (German!) fellow member Oliver, who _finally_ managed to overcome my misgivings!).
> 
> I shall now leave you in peace...and HAPPY LISTENING...


What gauge of the Neotech silver/gold did you use?  Now you have me going....dangit.

This is the Neotech 24 ga (stranded) copper prior to sleeving and terminating for the HD-6XX's.  And the HD-6XX's will continue with this cable (no way I'm spending 2X+ as much on the cable as the 'phones ), but the Atticus may deserve something better....




.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> ... hmmm maybe I will sell my granny.. wait a minute I haven't got a granny!


Then this will be the ultimate test of your salesmanship.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> (No way I'm spending 2X+ as much on the cable as the 'phones )…


Then I am a ‘lost cause’...Arctic Cables Palladium Series…for Sennheiser HD-600…🤪😳😆…


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> Still saving up for the HP cable.. hmmm maybe I will sell my granny.. wait a minute I haven't got a granny!


If not a sale, a three-year lease?


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 26, 2021)

bcowen said:


> What gauge of the Neotech silver/gold did you use?  Now you have me going....dangit.
> 
> This is the Neotech 24 ga (stranded) copper prior to sleeving and terminating for the HD-6XX's.  And the HD-6XX's will continue with this cable (no way I'm spending 2X+ as much on the cable as the 'phones ), but the Atticus may deserve something better....


Haha!

Hypnos will confirm but I think he used 24 and 26AG-GD silver/gold. I intend to use 24. The only way you could get thicker wires than that would be if you just had UP-OCC silver only then you could go to 20 ,22 or 24AWG. I might do that as 24AG-GD is incredibly thin wire.

Or you could go for the already made up cable at HifiCollective: *Neotech NEI-1002 UP-OCC Silver Interconnect Cable. *The wire is thicker and I don't think the price would be much different.

NB: I see HiFiCollective now do a *gold plated* silver, or copper now, for those who have everything!!

Your cable looks same construction as my stock HiFiMan, but obviously better! Mine is copper as well, If I still had my HD600 I think I would prefer copper anyway.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> If not a sale, a three-year lease?


Only trouble is she would have to come back at the end of the 3 years.. and anyway I want to keep the HP cable 🙂.


----------



## UntilThen

How does a KT88 sound like? 

I'll let the expert explain for you....

The KT88 is a gorgeous sounding tube. Since this is all in the ear of the beholder, I'll tell you what I hear from a KT88. Somewhere in between the soft, glassy tone of an EL34 and the raw, edgy tone of a 6550 lies the KT88. I've found them to have a similar glassiness and upper midrange sparkle to an EL34. They tend toward having rich harmonic response as well as a tighter, more defined low end, much akin to the 6550. The strange thing I heard from a KT88 is a big, round low end. The reason I thought this was strange is that usually that means the low end isn't tight and defined but the KT88s I've heard have both characteristics. It's almost like tightly defined low end that has a subwoofer behind it to me. I fell in love the first time I heard one cranked up. The clean tones are gorgeous and sparkly and they tend to stay clean at louder volumes due to the ratings but when they are lit up, boy they light up! Overdriven tones range from mild, bluesy cut (think Plexi on steroids) to insane saturation that has better definition than any other tube I've heard. They truly are a great tube choice for rock players.

Quote from Rusty Wiseman.


----------



## UntilThen

Tonight I return to the tubes I send to Tomas when he was building Odyssey. Strangely I've not use much of the Genalex KT88 in the 13 days rendezvous with Odyssey.

Tonight I'm using the Siemens EL11 and Genalex KT88. What a glorious tone. Odyssey is bias on the KT88 and it shouldn't surprise me that this tube is crackling a storm in my listening session tonight. What am I hearing? I refer you to Rusty up above. He describe it so well.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Hmmm, abyss wasn't in my dictionary until lately. When I tried it at an audio meet several years ago, I told myself I will never buy that contraption. Now I actually think it looks great. Funny how your perception changes over time.
> 
> @paramesh send me a picture of his new toy with CFA3, Kevin Gilmore SS design. I can't wait to try Abyss with Odyssey.


Congrats on the best, paramesh. 

What they may lack in simple aesthetics, they more than make up for in world class sound and first rate build quality.


----------



## hypnos1 (Aug 26, 2021)

bcowen said:


> What gauge of the Neotech silver/gold did you use?  Now you have me going....dangit.
> 
> This is the Neotech 24 ga (stranded) copper prior to sleeving and terminating for the HD-6XX's.  And the HD-6XX's will continue with this cable (no way I'm spending 2X+ as much on the cable as the 'phones ), but the Atticus may deserve something better....
> 
> .


Hi bc...glad to see another fan of Neotech's superlative (IMHO) wire...personally use it everywhere I possibly can. And yes, high quality equipment - including headphones! - simply cries out for it! 

To accompany the 24AWG UPOCC (solid) silver and copper wires in my hp cable, I added a 24AWG AG-GD...and, much against my usual practice, only to the pos and not return/ground (couldn't find the 8m length anywhere alas...suspect a bit of 'tidying up' by the better half! ). But even so, the difference was still noticeable. I'm waiting to see how my friend Olli's use of just this wire for his own Empys squares up...


----------



## hypnos1

jonathan c said:


> If not a sale, a three-year lease?





baronbeehive said:


> Only trouble is she would have to come back at the end of the 3 years.. and anyway I want to keep the HP cable 🙂.


Small fry guys...had to sell the missus for my Antipodes DX lol!! ...(hmmm, and ever since have wondered why she hardly complained )...


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> Congrats on the best, paramesh.
> 
> What they may lack in simple aesthetics, they more than make up for in world class sound and first rate build quality.



Paramesh's CFA3 Kevin Gilmore SS amp. He's so proud and happy with it. I'm sure he's having a great time with this combo.


----------



## OctavianH

When are your Abyss 1266 TC arriving? (the demo) I start to loose patience


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> When are your Abyss 1266 TC arriving? (the demo) I start to loose patience



In a time of lockdown and soaring case numbers, it will take 3 times as long. It's ok. It will come. In the meantime I'm enjoying the magical tone of Hekse and LCD4 with Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey's volume pot is the smoothest I've come across. It's logarithmic and not linear. A linear pot varies its resistance directly in proportion to how far you turn it. Turn it 1/10th of it's total travel, get a 10% change in resistance. With logarithmic the first range get small increases in volume and the more you turn the knob the quicker the volume raises.


----------



## Yetiman72 (Aug 26, 2021)

Enjoy my Friend


----------



## bcowen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi bc...glad to see another fan of Neotech's superlative (IMHO) wire...personally use it everywhere I possibly can. And yes, high quality equipment - including headphones! - simply cries out for it!
> 
> To accompany the 24AWG UPOCC (solid) silver and copper wires in my hp cable, I added a 24AWG AG-GD...and, much against my usual practice, only to the pos and not return/ground (couldn't find the 8m length anywhere alas...suspect a bit of 'tidying up' by the better half! ). But even so, the difference was still noticeable. I'm waiting to see how my friend Olli's use of just this wire for his own Empys squares up...


Thanks for the info!  You have me interested enough now to melt the credit card.    

I've been a big fan of Neotech wire for quite some time.  And not only their chassis wire, but their bulk cable like the NEP-3002 for power cords.  Put some nice Furutech connectors on it and it sounds better than some cords I've spent way more on.  Not that power cords make any difference, of course.   Even wired up my Tektons with 16 and 18 gauge...great stuff.


----------



## bcowen (Aug 26, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> Haha!
> 
> Hypnos will confirm but I think he used 24 and 26AG-GD silver/gold. I intend to use 24. The only way you could get thicker wires than that would be if you just had UP-OCC silver only then you could go to 20 ,22 or 24AWG. I might do that as 24AG-GD is incredibly thin wire.
> 
> ...


Gold plated silver.  How cool.  But I didn't even look at it.  One of those "if you have to ask" cost questions, and @UntilThen still only pays me $3 (AUD) an hour.


----------



## baronbeehive

LoryWiv said:


> Handsome shirt, although I'm still having difficulty getting over the immediate association that *"Footscray"* *Footspray* sounds like something one would use to treat toenail fungus.


Fixed it for you!


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 27, 2021)

I just thought I would say a few brief concluding remarks about how special that Footscray Brimar was for anyone interested now that I've had a chance to compare it with my Philips.

It is indeed very special, powerful, the presentation is very realistic, especially with that bass and drums, it's like sitting in the front row of a live performance, and I know I have stood right  next to Mick Fleetwood's bass drum at a festival, and been deafened! The resolution is second to none, for example the cymbals, high hats and such like are so clear and realistic, I have never heard that at such a high level before. And the soundstage has very accurate instrument placement. As a measure of how "special" it is it has elevated my humble $150 modded Miniwatt to the same end game level as my much more expensive and extensively modded Little Dot MKVI+. That is really saying something because the Miniwatt is a speaker amp and for a speaker amp to compare with a  headphone setup is pretty special.

However for me I think I prefer the more linear frequency band of the Philips than one weighted more to the bass frequencies, saying that the treble is still very extensive on the Brimar. Others may disagree, and I do love the Brimar, just not for everyday listening... possibly...


----------



## hypnos1

baronbeehive said:


> Haha!
> 
> Hypnos will confirm but I think he used 24 and 26AG-GD silver/gold. I intend to use 24. The only way you could get thicker wires than that would be if you just had UP-OCC silver only then you could go to 20 ,22 or 24AWG.* I might do that as 24AG-GD is incredibly thin wire.*
> 
> ...


Sorry once more thread...but...

Yo bb...my only gripe with the AG-GD wire - ie. it's incredibly difficult to strip without losing half the wires lol!  IMHO it would be far better ergonomically (and sonically in my book!) to halve the number and double the extremely thin 0.1mm diam.!! Can't understand that one.... But glad I persevered. However, 'straight' UP-OCC silver (accompanied perhaps by a copper wire) will still be superb lol...

As for gold-_plated _silver wire, at about £7/metre more than the AG-GD - and _still_ that measly 0.1mm, that's one I myself shan't even bother to try methinks. To me, the gold content in AG-GD being integral with the silver will benefit from the Ohno Continuous Cast process. But '_*plate*'_...???...hmmm. I'll leave that one to others . Good luck with your own projects and choices...CJ


bcowen said:


> Thanks for the info!  You have me interested enough now to melt the credit card.
> 
> I've been a big fan of Neotech wire for quite some time.  And not only their chassis wire, but their bulk cable like the NEP-3002 for power cords.  Put some nice Furutech connectors on it and it sounds better than some cords I've spent way more on.  Not that power cords make any difference, of course.  Even wired up my Tektons with 16 and 18 gauge...great stuff.


Wow bc, that's one pricey power cable...but looks really good! I was happy with my NEP-3003 MkIII UP-OCC Hybrid until Germanic (not mine!) enthusiasm converted me to solid UP-OCC silver for this use also - in this case AWG22 at about £42/metre (rated 6.3A @300V, so *1890W* handling..more than enough for our hifi methinks!) and made up in the 'dual', shielded  method I mentioned recently. And once again convinced me of the importance of quality power cables, especially when terminated with high quality plugs (such as Neotech's  UP-OCC Copper w/24K gold plating IEC plug). The increased clarity, dynamics and _flow_ took me quite by surprise...but then, even though not actually carrying the sound _signal_ itself, these cables are of course providing the transfer _medium_ for said signal...so no surprise really! .


----------



## baronbeehive

225


UntilThen said:


> Tonight I return to the tubes I send to Tomas when he was building Odyssey. Strangely I've not use much of the Genalex KT88 in the 13 days rendezvous with Odyssey.
> 
> Tonight I'm using the Siemens EL11 and Genalex KT88. What a glorious tone. Odyssey is bias on the KT88 and it shouldn't surprise me that this tube is crackling a storm in my listening session tonight. What am I hearing? I refer you to Rusty up above. He describe it so well.


Have you a favourite so far? Looks like you're enjoying them all 👍.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 27, 2021)

hypnos1 said:


> Sorry once more thread...but...
> 
> Yo bb...my only gripe with the AG-GD wire - ie. it's incredibly difficult to strip without losing half the wires lol!  IMHO it would be far better ergonomically (and sonically in my book!) to halve the number and double the extremely thin 0.1mm diam.!! Can't understand that one.... But glad I persevered. However, 'straight' UP-OCC silver (accompanied perhaps by a copper wire) will still be superb lol...


Yes, I can't understand it either, I suppose people such as yourself lose half the wire stripping it.. *and have to go back to the supplier and buy some more lol!*
A while back I came across some information about the importance of the cross sectional area necessary to carry the bass frequencies and I wondered if that was why some silver cables are fairly thin in the bass department.
I missed a chance, unlike you adding UP-OCC copper and silver, when I stripped out the copper cables from inside my LD and replaced with the silver. However the tone is so good I'm happy with the result.


hypnos1 said:


> As for gold-_plated _silver wire, at about £7/metre more than the AG-GD - and _still_ that measly 0.1mm, that's one I myself shan't even bother to try methinks. To me, the gold content in AG-GD being integral with the silver will benefit from the Ohno Continuous Cast process. But '_*plate*'_...???...hmmm. I'll leave that one to others . Good luck with your own projects and choices...CJ


Thanks! Yes I know people besides yourself have commented on the gold content adding to the sound!

Cheers .


hypnos1 said:


> The increased clarity, dynamics and _flow_ took me quite by surprise...but then, even though not actually carrying the sound _signal_ itself, these cables are of course providing the transfer _medium_ for said signal...so no surprise really! .


WOW!


----------



## UntilThen (Aug 27, 2021)

Odyssey is 15 days old now. I've been sitting with the tubes in the picture below for 2 days. Which is Tung Sol 6SU7gty and Radiotron 807. The Siemens EL11s are given a rest.  Just as I am writing, BaronBeeHive's question came up. No I haven't found a favorite so far. I have found several favorites.  I was surprised that the 6SL7 sound as good as the EL11.

I spend some time again with 3 amps powered on last night. Odyssey, Destiny and Oblivion. I was going through with my LCD4 and Hekse with each of the amps. Destiny and Oblivion are still great sounding amps. Still amaze with their tones. Odyssey has something special. There's a bounce wrapped tightly in minuscule bubbles in each note. Put collectively as a whole, you can imagine what that presents to your brains. Now I mentioned Berocca Bounce on the first few days of getting the amp. You do know what is Berocca Bounce don't you?   It's putting the springs in my music.

Here is Odyssey again. The obsession is never ending. If this carries on further, I've to check into AA - which means Amps Anonymous.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> You do know what is Berocca Bounce don't you?   It's putting the springs in my music.
> 
> Here is Odyssey again. The obsession is never ending. If this carries on further, I've to check into AA - which means Amps Anonymous.


Oh wow, I just google it! It looks good but why the *A*utomobile *A*ssociation?


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> You do know what is Berocca Bounce don't you?   It's putting the springs in my music.


Even better... the Beyonce bounce:

 😉.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Oh wow, I just google it! It looks good but why the *A*utomobile *A*ssociation?



AA can mean many things... Alcoholics Anonymous, Automobile Association, American Airlines, Australia Always and lastly Amps Anonymous which is where you check in to give up amps.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 27, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> You do know what is Berocca Beyounce Bounce don't you?  It's putting the springs in my music.


FIFY.

 😉.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Oh wow, I just google it! It looks good but why the *A*utomobile *A*ssociation?


I was left scratching my head at that one too.  For @UntilThen , it should more logically be the GCA, or Golf Cart Association.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> GCA, or Golf Cart Association.



I'll make you the president of that. No wait I'm the president and you're the chief driver with a qualified degree.


----------



## bcowen

hypnos1 said:


> Sorry once more thread...but...
> 
> Yo bb...my only gripe with the AG-GD wire - ie. it's incredibly difficult to strip without losing half the wires lol!  IMHO it would be far better ergonomically (and sonically in my book!) to halve the number and double the extremely thin 0.1mm diam.!! Can't understand that one.... But glad I persevered. However, 'straight' UP-OCC silver (accompanied perhaps by a copper wire) will still be superb lol...
> 
> ...


I've never tried a silver-wire power cord.  And I honestly haven't experimented with silver wire at all.  Old prejudice from days of yore when most silver wire was treble-tilted and lean in the midrange (to my ears).  Old habits die hard I suppose, and I should probably advance a few decades and try some Neotech silver.  

The NEP-3002.  One nice thing with DIY power cords is making the exact length needed and thereby eliminating cable clutter.






And matching interconnects (short length to go in a Schiit stack).  VH Audio V-Twist OCC copper with foamed PTFE dielectric which sounds very good, but no pretense to it being end game.
https://www.vhaudio.com/images/v-twist-Cu24.jpg


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I'll make you the president of that. No wait I'm the president and you're the chief driver with a qualified degree.


Just don't make me Treasurer or I'll pay myself more.


----------



## UntilThen

Are we comparing cables? My cables are from Silicon Valley.


----------



## UntilThen

These ones are from Buckingham Palace.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> These ones are from Buckingham Palace.



Yeah, OK, fine.  But do you have naked cables?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Yeah, OK, fine. But do you have naked cables?



Very neat Schiit !!! So you are not the untidy kid that I thought you are. I am impressed.


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey is 15 days old now. I've been sitting with the tubes in the picture below for 2 days. Which is Tung Sol 6SU7gty and Radiotron 807. The Siemens EL11s are given a rest.  Just as I am writing, BaronBeeHive's question came up. No I haven't found a favorite so far. I have found several favorites.  I was surprised that the 6SL7 sound as good as the EL11.
> 
> I spend some time again with 3 amps powered on last night. Odyssey, Destiny and Oblivion. I was going through with my LCD4 and Hekse with each of the amps. Destiny and Oblivion are still great sounding amps. Still amaze with their tones. Odyssey has something special. There's a bounce wrapped tightly in minuscule bubbles in each note. Put collectively as a whole, you can imagine what that presents to your brains. Now I mentioned Berocca Bounce on the first few days of getting the amp. You do know what is Berocca Bounce don't you?   It's putting the springs in my music.
> 
> Here is Odyssey again. The obsession is never ending. If this carries on further, I've to check into AA - which means Amps Anonymous.



You know, some might suggest Odyssey sounds as good as it does is because of that GE rectifier.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> You know, some might suggest Odyssey sounds as good as it does is because of that GE rectifier.



 Ok 5% of SQ goes to that GE rectifier and it's ribbed black plates !!!

Now to try my GE turntable with Odyssey. No noise at all ! A miracle. No pops and crackles. This may be the 2nd time I play this new Miles Davis album. Listening with He1000se, I hear EVERYTHING.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm glad I got Tomas to make 3 inputs. One for dac, one for turntable and one for CD player. I'm pretty much covered until I get an open reel.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> You know, some might suggest Odyssey sounds good even with that GE rectifier.


ROFL!  

Couldn't help but FTFY.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> ROFL!
> 
> Couldn't help but FTFY.



Don't forget the GE 5691.   It's 300 pounds a pair. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184882795086?hash=item2b0bdf924e:g:3xIAAOSwWS5gtddf


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Don't forget the GE 5691.   It's 300 pounds a pair. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184882795086?hash=item2b0bdf924e:g:3xIAAOSwWS5gtddf


Those are acceptable GE's.....since they were made by RCA.


----------



## UntilThen

How about this GE 6CA7 Fat Boy tubes then. These have a different sound to the regular EL34 and it's interesting !

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284075606594?hash=item422439c242:g:xAcAAOSwq-dfqsbu


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> How about this GE 6CA7 Fat Boy tubes then. These have a different sound to the regular EL34 and it's interesting !
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284075606594?hash=item422439c242:g:xAcAAOSwq-dfqsbu


I'll be happy for you to enjoy those.  I _did_, however, find another acceptable GE tube -- an 83 rectifier that goes in a lot of tube testers.  Very quiet.  Inaudible even.  Makes it the best GE I've yet not heard.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> Even better... the Beyonce bounce:
> 
> 😉.



~ If you want bounce, listen to Ray Brown play acoustic bass with Oscar Peterson on piano and Ed Thigpen on drums!
~ Also, the unforgettable album title and photo: “You Get More Bounce With Curtis Counce” (a great double bass player…not well known).


----------



## UntilThen

Soon as I finish Phil Collins, I'll listen to Ray Brown and Curtis Bounce.


----------



## UntilThen (Aug 28, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Ray Brown play acoustic bass with Oscar Peterson on piano and Ed Thigpen on drums!



Wow just wow. I'm a fan now. It's one kind of bass ! Great piano and drums too. Title of song, 'Gravy Jazz' from Oscar Peterson Trio.


----------



## UntilThen

Curtis Counce is slow and relaxing. Released in 1957 !   Bcowen's time.

I can hear instruments on the left and right channel clearly separated. Odyssey at it's best.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> ~ If you want bounce, listen to Ray Brown play acoustic bass with Oscar Peterson on piano and Ed Thigpen on drums!
> ~ Also, the unforgettable album title and photo: “You Get More Bounce With Curtis Counce” (a great double bass player…not well known).


I will, I'm loving double bass with the Brimar in situ!

NB: I wish to make it known I'm *not* into Beyonce! That was purely for illustrative purposes .


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Curtis Counce is slow and relaxing. Released in 1957 !   Bcowen's time.
> 
> I can hear instruments on the left and right channel clearly separated. Odyssey at it's best.


Oh please.  Like I’m really _that_ old.  I was born in 1958.  Geeez.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Oh please.  Like I’m really _that_ old.  I was born in 1958.  Geeez.


Me…1953…a decade older than my favourite Melz…


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> I will, I'm loving double bass with the Brimar in situ!
> 
> NB: I wish to make it known I'm *not* into Beyonce! That was purely for illustrative purposes .


Presumably, only Jay-Z is…


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Wow just wow. I'm a fan now. It's one kind of bass ! Great piano and drums too. Title of song, 'Gravy Jazz' from Oscar Peterson Trio.


Other albums to check out on this front: West Side Story, A Jazz Tribute to Frank Sinatra, Night Train…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Me…1953…a decade older than my favourite Melz…


My favorite Foton is a 1953 if that helps.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> Presumably, only Jay-Z is… *only for illustrative purposes too*.


FIFY .


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> My favorite Foton *GE* is a 1953 if that helps.



FIFY


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Other albums to check out on this front: West Side Story, A Jazz Tribute to Frank Sinatra, Night Train…



Thanks. Had a quick listen of these. You should hear it with He1000se and Odyssey with a little help from Yggdrasil. I will go back and listen to the whole albums. Even listening to Frank Sinatra now.  

I'm surprised that Odyssey is still evolving. 16 days on and it's still transforming. Dynamics and timbre are outstanding.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> F*T*FY


F*T*FY


----------



## jonathan c

Hey, bcowen et al, what about a FTFY thread? Then there could be FTFTFY…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Hey, bcowen et al, what about a FTFY thread? Then it would be the FTFY*T*…


Here...FTFY.


----------



## UntilThen

Chilling on a Sunday morning listening to Chasing Pirates by Norah Jones on vinyl.  Can't think of a better past time during lockdown. Odyssey has pass with flying colors in the first 2 weeks. Oblivion is still a great sounding amp after 2 years. I'm fortunate to have 2 of Tomas's amps.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> Hey, bcowen et al, what about a FTFY thread? Then there could be FTFTFY…


Best idea yet by a mile .


----------



## UntilThen

Today has been a day of exploring with EL34. I have only 2 pairs at the moment. RFT single O getter EL34 and Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 double O getters.

Question is, can I live with Odyssey if I didn't have EL39 and EL12 spez. The answer is yes. Definitely yes.

EL34 has a leaner tone than both EL39 and EL12 spez and can prove useful when the mood calls for. The RFT EL34 sounded slightly more aggressive and raw than the Philips 6CA7. This can also be useful when the situation calls for. Could be perfect for AC/DC.  

I've use both EL11 and GE 5691 with the EL34s. In both instances, it's just pure class tone. I wouldn't call them relax but they are just more textured than the neutral leaning KT88. Don't get me wrong. There's nothing neutral about the KT88 but just in comparison with EL34.

Currently running GE 5691 and Philips 6CA7. I really love this combination. Snappy transients, tight tones and has good attack and yet remain soothing.


----------



## UntilThen

Are you still enjoying this hobby or do you feel burn out?

Yes I do enjoy this hobby and I'm far from burn out. I'm burning with passion instead.   All these years of constant upgrading, especially amps. There is a purpose. I'm chasing better sound to enjoy my music and I've found it. I enjoy headphone listening more than speakers at this point in time because my head-fi gear are better than my Hi Fi gear. This is my favorite spot in that chair. From there I can control whether to listen to speakers or headphones. I can select between LCD4 and He1000se. I have 3 tube amps to choose (4 but I often forget about Elekit TU8200) from but Odyssey is getting all the attention now because the tone stimulates my mind. Vibrancy and dynamics. Pitch perfect to my ears. This is as good as it gets.


----------



## UntilThen

I've also found after 2 weeks that I have no preference of EL11 over 6SL7 or 6SN7. If I didn't have EL11, I would have still been very happy with the three 6SL7s that I have now. Not to mention the various 12au7, 12at7, 12ax7, 6922, 6n23p, etc.

I am astonished how good the 6SL7 drivers sound in Odyssey. EL11 is great but no better to my ears. I just love the variations. From here on there will be less tube rolling because I know what each driver and power tube combination brings. What is astonishing is I haven't found a bad sounding combination. Perhaps it's just Odyssey. He's not tube dependent to sound good.


----------



## UntilThen

It's official. I prefer He1000se over LCD4 with Odyssey. The HiFiMan gets 80% head time. I hope that change over time because I didn't pay $6200 for the Audeze just to look pretty.


----------



## SonicTrance

I just completed an Oblivion! First Oblivion built this year, it was fun to build one again. Simple version with just an impedance switch =) Another one coming up!


----------



## UntilThen

Ah Oblivion. Why does it look so familiar.  Mine has the works and it's staying right here. Strange how many times I've people wanting to buy it off me. I still prefer the original layout with respect to the tubes placement.


----------



## UntilThen

Mine look timeless.


----------



## OctavianH

Hmm, I'd like to have a balanced amp, not sure which one and when.


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> Hmm, I'd like to have a balanced amp, not sure which one and when.


Hi @OctavianH, curious why. I used to seek balanced DAC / amp. but at this point I think well-engineered SE with sufficient power can be as good or better, In other words, "balanced" isn't a goal of mine any longer, just the best gear I can afford.


----------



## OctavianH

I think it is more a matter of experience, but I have a feeling that more power on low impedance headphones like my Ether 2 will bring me more channel separation. I have no idea if I am right because I never owned a balanced amp and never cared about this factor, but I have a feeling that my Ether 2 are unpowered on Eternity. Maybe it is all in my mind. Anyway.


----------



## jonathan c

LoryWiv said:


> Hi @OctavianH, curious why. I used to seek balanced DAC / amp. but at this point I think well-engineered SE with sufficient power can be as good or better, In other words, "balanced" isn't a goal of mine any longer, just the best gear I can afford.


“Balanced” is not _de facto_ better than “single ended” particulary when components are fairly close together (short interconnect / headphone cable runs).


----------



## ThanatosVI

jonathan c said:


> “Balanced” is not _de facto_ better than “single ended” particulary when components are fairly close together (short interconnect / headphone cable runs).


Especially when the chain ends in a tube amp


----------



## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> I think it is more a matter of experience, but I have a feeling that more power on low impedance headphones like my Ether 2 will bring me more channel separation. I have no idea if I am right because I never owned a balanced amp and never cared about this factor, but I have a feeling that my Ether 2 are unpowered on Eternity. Maybe it is all in my mind. Anyway.


Eternity will have about 0.5W into 16 ohms. That's more than enough. Get a balanced amp if you want lower distortion, cleaner, faster, more detailed etc sound, not for more power.


----------



## UntilThen

Like everyone who has said so, balanced will not sound better than SE or the other way around. It's all in the implementations. I have Ragnarok and I sold it in less than a year. Wa22 is balanced but it's sitting in Sydney 300 kms away from me. 

Oblivion is very quiet and powerful enough for headphones. Destiny is very powerful but unfortunately there is a very low level hum on low impedance headphones like my He1000se. Elekit TU8200 is also very powerful and quiet but the volume knob has not much feel. Soundstage is the least of the trio.

Odyssey is very powerful, very quiet, volume knob feel is superb, sounds the best I've heard in amps I've owned or tried.


----------



## UntilThen

I posted Odyssey in Audiokarma under my ingenious name of 'Endless' and someone ask 'what on earth is that amp... it's looks incredible'.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> I posted Odyssey in Audiokarma under my ingenious name of 'Endless' and someone ask 'what on earth is that amp... it's looks incredible'.



I like Audiokarma, for two channel discussion it's great, similar to Head-Fi in a lot of ways, and a very healthy DIY forum.  Some very knowledgeable members there, especially when it comes to vintage gear.

Nice avatar


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> I like Audiokarma, for two channel discussion it's great, similar to Head-Fi in a lot of ways, and a very healthy DIY forum.  Some very knowledgeable members there, especially when it comes to vintage gear.





L0rdGwyn said:


> Nice avatar



I started posting there because of my Denon DP300f turntable in 2016 or 17 can't remember. It is also a very healthy vintage amps channel. I was there with my Sansui amps. Gosh I miss the mountain water.

UntilThen and Endless.. it's taboo. I'll be TheEnd next.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> I'll be TheEnd next.


'Next' will be very far away. But Odyssey might be your Destiny. For a while at least.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> I posted Odyssey in Audiokarma under my ingenious name of 'Endless' and someone ask 'what on earth is that amp... it's looks incredible'.


Have they given you any "feedback" yet about how such an amp might be overkill for headphones once they realize it's not for speakers?


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Have they given you any "feedback" yet about how such an amp might be overkill for headphones once they realize it's not for speakers?



Nope but there some adoring comments from one fan.  and another agreeing. 

Overkill is non existent when you hear He1000se and LCD4 on Odyssey. It's playing on a different level and we all know that He1000se don't need much to get it going but the difference is to get it going and to make it sound great.

Ah they also realized now that it will drive speakers. Which is strange because my primary objective in Odyssey is that it drives headphones well and secondly for speakers. That objective has been well and truly met. It's so good with headphones that I spend most of my time with Odyssey on headphones.


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey lives here now.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey lives here now.


Lockdown quiet…


----------



## UntilThen

That was taken on the 12 June, way before lockdown.


----------



## UntilThen

UntilThen said:


> my primary objective in Odyssey is that it drives headphones well and secondly for speakers.



Spend today using speakers while I work. Boston Acoustics VR2 is 93 dB into 8 ohms. Such sweet tone from Odyssey driving it. In a small room, it is ideal. At such times, I couldn't really say that headphones sound better. 

Tomas told me he felt Odyssey was really good with his speakers in UL mode. That is what I set it to in UL mode with GE 5691 and Psvane KT88 Tii.

I'm even thinking of buying the Ascension V1062AQTL. https://www.adelaidespeakers.com/valve.html


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> I like Audiokarma, for two channel discussion it's great, similar to Head-Fi in a lot of ways, and a very healthy DIY forum.  Some very knowledgeable members there, especially when it comes to vintage gear.
> 
> Nice avatar


I like Audiokarma as well.  One of the few forums around (beyond HeadFi) where members are courteous and respectful for the most part.  It's also where I learned how to ultrasonically clean my LP's.  Several good threads there dealing with processes and formulas.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> where members are courteous and respectful for the most part



Especially Endless.


----------



## UntilThen

I am also on Stevehoffman forum as none other then UntilThen. Talking about Axis Voicebox S with Redgum Rgi120enr. That was in Mar 2018. That was a long time ago and I am still 25.


----------



## mordy (Aug 30, 2021)

deleted


----------



## UntilThen

So no one has an opinion on these crystal white Ascension speakers that are specially made for tube amps? 95dB is very efficient in my book. 10" woofers !


----------



## leftside

Also a good one on the VPI forum:
http://vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2289&start=830

Must be as many ways to clean a record as there are tube rolling combos in all of UT's amps  Personally, I clean the record in a DIY ultrasonic machine and then rinse/vacuum/dry on a VPI HW-17. The above thread has made me consider also doing a pre-clean on the HW-17. I have about 30 new records that I'm waiting for a rainy day here to clean.


----------



## UntilThen

New records don't need cleaning Leftside.  Haven't touch my Ultrasonic cleaner for a while. I use a Record Doctor V for vacuuming dry.


----------



## UntilThen

Umm clearly I'm wrong. You do need to clean new records.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> Umm clearly I'm wrong. You do need to clean new records.



Yep otherwise your expensive cart/needle will do the "cleaning"


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> I like Audiokarma as well.  One of the few forums around (beyond HeadFi) where members are courteous and respectful for the most part.


Yep, that is so rare on audio forums, where members are at each others throats most of the time, I hate it.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I am also on Stevehoffman forum as none other then UntilThen. Talking about Axis Voicebox S with Redgum Rgi120enr. That was in Mar 2018. That was a long time ago and I am still 25.


He is a great source of info, if I remember right his was the first place I first found out about the Miniwatt.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 31, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> So no one has an opinion on these crystal white Ascension speakers that are specially made for tube amps? 95dB is very efficient in my book. 10" woofers !


If I wasn't already happy with my Monitor Audio Silver's I would have an opinion. I was looking for something around 95db at the time but when I got mine, I looked no further. Mine are only 87db and really shouldn't work with a low power amp, yet they confound the sceptics!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> New records don't need cleaning Leftside.  Haven't touch my Ultrasonic cleaner for a while. I use a Record Doctor V for vacuuming dry.


Neither do CD's, I regularly spread my breakfast marmalade on them and it makes no difference, very rarely do they not work .


----------



## UntilThen

Alright Beehoven you eat your marmalade while I dedicate this song to Bcowen.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> deleted



Alright Mordy, what did you delete? Did you delete my power? I was without power for 1 hour !!! Imagine one hour of no music and no Odyssey. World came to a standstill.


----------



## UntilThen

Anyhoo this 5u4c rectifier came with Destiny and I've not use it before. Now to ask my friend @gibosi who's a rectifier expert. Is this the same as GZ34 or 5AR4 or 5u4g?

It's got the flying saucer so I reckon it's Russian.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> So no one has an opinion on these crystal white Ascension speakers that are specially made for tube amps? 95dB is very efficient in my book. 10" woofers !



Well, they look nice!  95dB is very efficient, should pair well with your amp  are you able to audition?


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Well, they look nice!  95dB is very efficient, should pair well with your amp  are you able to audition?



No audition unfortunately and white is not what I have in mind. Might have to paint it purple.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Aug 31, 2021)

leftside said:


> Also a good one on the VPI forum:
> http://vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2289&start=830
> 
> Must be as many ways to clean a record as there are tube rolling combos in all of UT's amps  Personally, I clean the record in a DIY ultrasonic machine and then rinse/vacuum/dry on a VPI HW-17. The above thread has made me consider also doing a pre-clean on the HW-17. I have about 30 new records that I'm waiting for a rainy day here to clean.



I have been using my US cleaner with much success, although my process is simple, no pre or post clean, I just run it through the cleaner, I run the filter continuously during cleaning so as to not bathe the records in dust / particulates which made a significant difference, happy with the results!  I have no space for a VPI cleaner anyhow!

At some point I am going to use my stash of E55L tubes to build an LCR phono.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> No audition unfortunately and white is not what I have in mind. Might have to paint it purple.



I'm a fan of natural woods personally, the blackwood veneer on the site is very purdy.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> At some point I am going to use my stash of E55L tubes to build an LCR phono.



Tube phono ? Ingenious. 

These are my cleaning machine and vacuum.   Haven't use it for more than a year.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Aug 31, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I like Audiokarma as well.  One of the few forums around (beyond HeadFi) where members are courteous and respectful for the most part.  It's also where I learned how to ultrasonically clean my LP's.  Several good threads there dealing with processes and formulas.



Exactly, members are very helpful, nice chap there helped me get ahold of some tweeter diaphragms for my Snells when I was restoring them, really saved me a headache!  Also got some good info when restoring my Thorens.  Lots of knowledgeable guys on fancy vintage speakers too, good stuff.



UntilThen said:


> Tube phono ? Ingenious.
> 
> These are my cleaning machine and vacuum.   Haven't use it for more than a year.



Oh yes tube phono is the way!

This is my tube phono I use now, D3A and EF86 tubes, separate power supply chassis, only DC in the phono chassis for low noise.  I rewired my TT for balanced output and the phono takes balanced input with single-ended outputs, again for low noise.



It sounds great, but @leftside recently had an LCR phono custom-made, this is a more esoteric type of tube phono, the bee's knees, tricky to design, requires specific tubes and custom chokes.  I collected some E55L tubes, maybe seven or eight pairs, great for the LCR phono, it's on "the list" of things to do, but first tube DAC.


----------



## UntilThen

Very nice Keenan !  I think Leftside got this preamp / phono. He was telling me about it. Now that is a sexy unit.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> Very nice Keenan !  I think Leftside got this preamp / phono. He was telling me about it. Now that is a sexy unit.



An absolute unit one might say, it is very pretty, reminds me of my old mirror Crackatwoa.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Alright Mordy, what did you delete? Did you delete my power? I was without power for 1 hour !!! Imagine one hour of no music and no Odyssey. World came to a standstill.


Using algorhytms, I calculated your real age but decided to keep it a secret. Suffice to say that it is more than 25 - in my own case three times more....


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> Anyhoo this 5u4c rectifier came with Destiny and I've not use it before. Now to ask my friend @gibosi who's a rectifier expert. Is this the same as GZ34 or 5AR4 or 5u4g?
> 
> It's got the flying saucer so I reckon it's Russian.



Yes, it's Russian, 5Ц4С. It is about the same as a 5Z4G and can provide about 125 mA. Considering that a 5U4G can provide 225 mA, it's pretty puny, and for example, I can't use it in my Glenn OTL.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> Very nice Keenan !  I think Leftside got this preamp / phono. He was telling me about it. Now that is a sexy unit.


Mine has the mahogany colour and is two pieces. The separate power section takes 2 EL34/KT66 and a GZ34 rectifier. 
http://www.supratek.com.au/

The only picture I have of mine is at night.


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> Yes, it's Russian, 5Ц4С. It is about the same as a 5Z4G and can provide about 125 mA. Considering that a 5U4G can provide 225 mA, it's pretty puny, and for example, I can't use it in my Glenn OTL.


@UntilThen 
In other words, don't use it in Odyssey!


----------



## SonicTrance

leftside said:


> Mine has the mahogany colour and is two pieces. The separate power section takes 2 EL34/KT66 and a GZ34 rectifier.
> http://www.supratek.com.au/
> 
> The only picture I have of mine is at night.


Nice cozy room!


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> Yes, it's Russian, 5Ц4С. It is about the same as a 5Z4G and can provide about 125 mA. Considering that a 5U4G can provide 225 mA, it's pretty puny, and for example, I can't use it in my Glenn OTL.



Thanks. Even found out the mA for me. As I recall Tomas told me to use rectifiers at or above 200 mA in Odyssey.



SonicTrance said:


> @UntilThen
> In other words, don't use it in Odyssey!



Fortunately I check. Eric gave that to me as stock rectifier for the 300b amp. I tried it and it works in the 300b amp.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Mine has the mahogany colour and is two pieces. The separate power section takes 2 EL34/KT66 and a GZ34 rectifier.
> http://www.supratek.com.au/
> 
> The only picture I have of mine is at night.



Amazing Leftside. Thanks for sharing. Classy gear there and a true tubes lover.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> This is my tube phono I use now, *D3A* and EF86 tubes, separate power supply chassis, only DC in the phono chassis for low noise. I rewired my TT for balanced output and the phono takes balanced input with single-ended outputs, again for low noise.



The D3A would make nice drivers in a 300b amp. In the mole of a c3g. I've love the EF86 in La Figaro.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

UntilThen said:


> The D3A would make nice drivers in a 300b amp. In the mole of a c3g. I've love the EF86 in La Figaro.



It is a popular 300B driver, tubes that make good 300B drivers are useful in lots of audio circuits, some high gm triode-strapped pentodes have a nice combination of linearity, high gain, low plate resistance, and low noise.


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> Thanks. Even found out the mA for me. As I recall Tomas told me to use rectifiers at or above 200 mA in Odyssey.
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately I check. Eric gave that to me as stock rectifier for the 300b amp. I tried it and it works in the 300b amp.



I assume you can't use 4-volt rectifiers? If so, there are some nice European AZ4 and AZ12 rectifiers that can provide 200 mA.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> I assume you can't use 4-volt rectifiers? If so, there are some nice European AZ4 and AZ12 rectifiers that can provide 200 mA.



Not sure. Maybe with an adapter Tomas?

My rectifier socket has 5 pins.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Not sure. Maybe with an adapter Tomas?
> 
> My rectifier socket has 5 pins.


That adapter would need to have a resistor inside it to drop the voltage down to 4V. Would work but could get very hot inside the adapter. Not recommended.


----------



## bcowen (Aug 31, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> So no one has an opinion on these crystal white Ascension speakers that are specially made for tube amps? 95dB is very efficient in my book. 10" woofers !


My Tektons have 10" woofers and are 98dB.  My dogs woof louder than what you're looking at.


----------



## bcowen

leftside said:


> Also a good one on the VPI forum:
> http://vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2289&start=830
> 
> Must be as many ways to clean a record as there are tube rolling combos in all of UT's amps  Personally, I clean the record in a DIY ultrasonic machine and then rinse/vacuum/dry on a VPI HW-17. The above thread has made me consider also doing a pre-clean on the HW-17. I have about 30 new records that I'm waiting for a rainy day here to clean.


Just reading the first post, $143 for a 2 micron filter?  Holy cow.  I paid $11 for two 1 micron filters.  Guess I'm doing it wrong.    

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D049XFQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Oh yes tube phono is the way!
> 
> 
> It sounds great, but @leftside recently had an LCR phono custom-made, this is a more esoteric type of tube phono, the bee's knees, tricky to design, requires specific tubes and custom chokes.  I collected some E55L tubes, maybe seven or eight pairs, great for the LCR phono, it's on "the list" of things to do, but first tube DAC.


Couldn't agree more, except to nitpick and say it's the _*only*_ way.


----------



## bcowen

leftside said:


> Mine has the mahogany colour and is two pieces. The separate power section takes 2 EL34/KT66 and a GZ34 rectifier.
> http://www.supratek.com.au/
> 
> The only picture I have of mine is at night.


I've never heard a Supratek, only heard of them.  Considered end game by many.


----------



## triod750

bcowen said:


> I've never heard a Supratek, only heard of them.  Considered end game by many.


There is no such thing as end game until all audiophools are dead and gone!


----------



## UntilThen

There will be no end game when until then and endless are still around.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> There will be no end game when until then and endless are still around.


I guess we'll just have to be _e_ndlessly patient _u_ntil _t_hen.


----------



## leftside

bcowen said:


> I've never heard a Supratek, only heard of them.  Considered end game by many.


Mick from Supratek is also a great guy to deal with - as with the custom amp builders on here. We've become friends as he is also a downhill mountain biker.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Mick from Supratek is also a great guy to deal with - as with the custom amp builders on here. We've become friends as he is also a downhill mountain biker.



Not forgetting he's an Aussie.


----------



## jonathan c

triod750 said:


> There is no such thing as end game until all audiophools are dead and gone!


…or stone deaf…


----------



## Harry_H

Anyone have experience how Citadel or Oblivion is comparing to GSX mk2 ?  I have GSX, just looking something new and different. Thanks


----------



## UntilThen

Harry_H said:


> Anyone have experience how Citadel or Oblivion is comparing to GSX mk2 ?  I have GSX, just looking something new and different. Thanks



@joseph69  has both at one time. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/post-15880832


----------



## joseph69

Harry_H said:


> Anyone have experience how Citadel or Oblivion is comparing to GSX mk2 ?  I have GSX, just looking something new and different. Thanks


Here are 4 links regarding their differences based on listening to the Utopia.


----------



## UntilThen

Here's what I hear between Oblivion and Odyssey. Yggdrasil and He1000se in attendance.

Oblivion has great instruments separation and very wide soundstage. Very clear and airy. Had another listen to this amp now again and am very surprised that it still sounded very good to me. Musical and engaging. Pick up notes with precision. This amp's a keeper for me.

Odyssey has great instruments separation and better depth and height of soundstage but slightly narrower in width than Oblivion. Has better tube tone. Has better bass. Not that Oblivion's bass is lacking. Tube tone is so good, I can't get enough of it. My favourite of the 2 amps.

Both amps are agile with fast transients. This is one of the traits I'm looking for.


----------



## Harry_H

Thank you joseph69 and UntilThen, after reading those linked post a bit worry if Citadel would be too bright for my taste, In general happy with the tonality of the GSX. Anyway, now I'm looking something that would sound different compare to GSX, but would be on same "level". @UntilThen notice from some old posts that you have had the Auralic Taurus at same time with the Oblivion, how you would be comparing those two if looking tonality, dynamics and level of presenting details ? (I had Taurus before I bought the GSX some some idea how it sound). @joseph69 noticed that you sold the Citadel at some point, where there any specific reason for that ?   maybe even Infinity would be something to be consider, but as now previous experience from tube amps, dont know what to "order" or so.

Headphones that I'm using currently are, LCD4, Utopia, VC and Arya (mainly looking amp for VC, if I need to prioritize)


----------



## UntilThen

Here you go @Harry_H.  Taurus and Oblivion.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/post-16229317

and Oblivion vs Odyssey.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/post-16539359


----------



## UntilThen

A few things to take note here. Taurus is a solid state amp. Oblivion is a hybrid with tubes as preamp. Odyssey is strictly a tube amp of the old school design. 

In terms of tube tone and 3D presentation, this is how they stand. Odyssey > Oblivion > Taurus.

In terms of details and clarity, Odyssey and Oblivion tie for 1st spot. Taurus come last.


----------



## UntilThen

UntilThen said:


> what I want Odyssey to be is a classic tube amp tone with great 2nd harmonic distortions. When I heard Auris Nirvana with LCD-4, I told myself that my next amp will sound similar to that. Texture laden, slight warm, great dynamics, clarity and details, good soundstage and solid seismic like bass that will hit you in the chest, slam and with some bite. Top end must be revealing and not rounded off. It has to go low to middle earth.
> 
> I hope I'm not asking too much.



Feb 11th I wrote this. I wouldn't have a clue then how Odyssey will turn out but Odyssey does turn out just as I hope for above and then some.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Oblivion is a hybrid with tubes as preamp.


I guess it depends of what you mean be hybrid? To me, Oblivion is definitely not a hybrid. It's 100% tube amplification, that makes it a tube amp in my book. In a hybrid amp you often have a SS stage with amplification. What the SS parts in Oblivion does is make the tubes run more optimally, that's it.
Just wanted to clear that up


----------



## UntilThen

I open up the bottom cover of Odyssey, after 20 days of continuous usage of about 8 hours each day. I wanted to see if the interior has changed colour. I was very surprised that it's the same as day one. So I took a picture and compare it to the picture that Tomas send me. It's exactly the same colour. It's most neat and beautiful layout I've seen.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I guess it depends of what you mean be hybrid? To me, Oblivion is definitely not a hybrid. It's 100% tube amplification, that makes it a tube amp in my book. In a hybrid amp you often have a SS stage with amplification. What the SS parts in Oblivion does is make the tubes run more optimally, that's it.
> Just wanted to clear that up



Ok I must have got the hybrid idea from Max, who on the first page of this thread said that it's a true and ideal hybrid amp.


----------



## joseph69

Harry_H said:


> @joseph69 noticed that you sold the Citadel at some point, where there any specific reason for that ?


Yes, because I had sold my WA33 for the Citadel and missed it terribly, so I traded the Citadel + cash for another WA33.
I didn't want to have 2 tube amps which is why I chose to sell the Citadel and keep the GS-X which has been nothing but good to me since I purchased it new in +/-'17 as well as HeadAmp being in (VA) which is much closer to my location (NY) if it should need to be serviced or looked at.


----------



## Harry_H

Thank you all for the sharing details, I'll need to read through this entered thread again, to get some view about those other amps as well


----------



## baronbeehive

@UntilThen so when are you going to audition the Abyss, I can't wait around here all day!

Besides I have things to do like filling in all the bunkers when you next hit the fairway .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> @UntilThen so when are you going to audition the Abyss, I can't wait around here all day!
> 
> Besides I have things to do like filling in all the bunkers when you next hit the fairway .



In the early days of my hobby or even as late as 2 years ago, I'd want everything yesterday. I have gotten to a point where the sonics are so good, I have become Mr Patient. In golf your mind needs to be calm and you need to be patient to get the eagle or albatross. 

So since I was told that the Abyss will come for testing, I'll just let it be. I'm enjoying the He1000se and LCD4 very much at the moment. In fact they could have been all I need. Just a thought here. Since I like the He1000se so much with Odyssey, maybe I should be auditioning Susvara instead.


----------



## UntilThen

I never believe in EQing my headphones but something happened yesterday. I experimented with a DeskFX by NCH Software. I lifted the 4k dip in LCD4 and it's much better now.


----------



## UntilThen

Arrived on the 13th August and it's 4th September now. Almost a month coming up. If you ask me which tube amp I would recommend you, I will say its definitely Odyssey. Great 2nd harmonic distortions with great clarity and details. I am still left in amazement at every listening session. Incredible build Tomas and I thank you for that. This is a Christmas present that came early and one that I'm willing to buy nice NOS tubes for it.


----------



## UntilThen

LCD4 sounds better than He1000se today, go figure. Odyssey is playing mind games with me. Maybe I do need Abyss.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I open up the bottom cover of Odyssey, after 20 days of continuous usage of about 8 hours each day. I wanted to see if the interior has changed colour. I was very surprised that it's the same as day one. So I took a picture and compare it to the picture that Tomas send me. It's exactly the same colour. It's most neat and beautiful layout I've seen.


????  What were you expecting?  A heavenly blue glow?  Nuclear green haze?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> ????  What were you expecting?  A heavenly blue glow?  Nuclear green haze?



I saw this. You have no idea but I can't show you.


----------



## UntilThen

When I cover it back, I saw this.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> When I cover it back, I saw this.



ROFL!!!


----------



## UntilThen

5 minutes later there is music.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> I never believe in EQing my headphones but something happened yesterday. I experimented with a DeskFX by NCH Software. I lifted the 4k dip in LCD4 and it's much better now.


Interesting, I also generally adhere to the "if it's good it doesn't need EQ" motto but received a Focal Clear MG this week and decided to add and tweak some Harman target parametric EQ files into HQ Player's pipeline, and this definitely has made a really good headphone even better.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Interesting, I also generally adhere to the "if it's good it doesn't need EQ" motto but received a Focal Clear MG this week and decided to add and tweak some Harman target parametric EQ files into HQ Player's pipeline, and this definitely has made a really good headphone even better.



Right on Lory. I spend today using LCD4 instead of He1000se as a result. The Audeze is making a comeback in my world. The 6k is not in vain.  In fact the tone is so good....

I also discovered that I like using 6SL7 today instead of EL11. Not sure why but it just sound right. Gone from Brimar 6sl7 to Tung Sol 6su7gty. Both good.


----------



## UntilThen

That's it. I got my holy grail setup. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sho...e-no-old-pictures-please.529140/post-16542439
All in time for Father's Day tomorrow.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> ????  What were you expecting?  A heavenly blue glow?  Nuclear green haze?


If it's anything like my amp was before I rewired it, it would be mostly charcoal black.. with an interesting aroma of charred plastic .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> If it's anything like my amp was before I rewired it, it would be mostly charcoal black.. with an interesting aroma of charred plastic .



Picture this. A silver clean chassis with black Mundorf caps with gold and silver letterings, quality wires of different colours, Hammond choke, green and cream colour resistors. Soldering so good I can play guitar with the wires and the solder joints won't come off. It's a work of art inside. Even Picasso would have been proud.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Right on Lory. I spend today using LCD4 instead of He1000se as a result. The Audeze is making a comeback in my world. The 6k is not in vain.  In fact the tone is so good....
> 
> I also discovered that I like using 6SL7 today instead of EL11. Not sure why but it just sound right. Gone from Brimar 6sl7 to Tung Sol 6su7gty. Both good.


You should try some 1940's Sylvania VT-229's.  These used to sell for 2x - 3x what they go for now.  Supply and demand I suppose, and since the 6SL7 has become less popular in audio circles in recent years the prices have slowly gone down.


----------



## UntilThen

Is this one ok? https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/174721448637?epid=1423268464&hash=item28ae35babd:g:C8UAAOSwE3BgYFhS


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Is this one ok? https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/174721448637?epid=1423268464&hash=item28ae35babd:g:C8UAAOSwE3BgYFhS


Looks very good!  A pretty sure bet, as it were.  You can find them for less money though if you want.  They are not super-rare and pop up on a pretty regular basis.

This one is untested and it doesn't look like the seller ships outside the US, but just for example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255099107414?hash=item3b65177856:g:QYEAAOSwfFVhHbNY

Here's a 1952 and not marked as a VT-229, but it's the same tube.  The 1940's vintage sound a bit better to my ears, but not a huge difference.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154553237880?hash=item23fc174178:g:ITQAAOSwQOJg9aRS


----------



## UntilThen

Bought it. Bought the one that I link.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Bought it. Bought the one that I link.


Well....how does it sound?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Well....how does it sound?



It sounds just like Sylvania. I'll know for sure when it comes.  

I also read that it's one of the top 5 6SL7. I don't plan to buy all types of 6SL7 under the sun. I'll just pick a couple of the good ones. I'm enjoying the very clear and dynamic Brimar 6SL7 red letters with Tung Sol 6550 at the moment.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> It sounds just like Sylvania. I'll know for sure when it comes.


Interested in your impressions. Never heard a round plate Sylvania, I'm more familiar with the 6SN7 with the triangular plates. Brent Jessee has 6SL7WGT round plates for $40.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Interested in your impressions. Never heard a round plate Sylvania, I'm more familiar with the 6SN7 with the triangular plates. Brent Jessee has 6SL7WGT round plates for $40.


Kind of interesting how the great majority of 6SL7's have round plates, and only a select few 6SN7's have round plates.  Don't ask me why 'cause I don't know, just an observation.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> It sounds just like Sylvania. I'll know for sure when it comes.
> 
> I also read that it's one of the top 5 6SL7. I don't plan to buy all types of 6SL7 under the sun. I'll just pick a couple of the good ones. I'm enjoying the very clear and dynamic Brimar 6SL7 red letters with Tung Sol 6550 at the moment.



Slacker.  What, are you taking the day off?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Right on Lory. I spend today using LCD4 instead of He1000se as a result. The Audeze is making a comeback in my world. The 6k is not in vain.  In fact the tone is so good....
> 
> I also discovered that I like using 6SL7 today instead of EL11. Not sure why but it just sound right. Gone from Brimar 6sl7 to Tung Sol 6su7gty. Both good.


You should get this too.  I've never heard one, but I've also never heard anyone say that _any_ Arcturus tube sucks.   The 7F7 is electrically identical to a 6SL7 (despite the seller labeling it as a 6SN7), it just has a loctal base so you'll need an adapter.  Probably LOTS of cheap and excellent 7F7's around as they don't ping much on audiophile radar scopes.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2340543060...4%2FF8TvqUtw5df%2B8I|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2334524

Adapter:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284357984013?hash=item42350e7f0d:g:vHIAAOSwQrJbUX-q


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> You should get this too. I've never heard one, but I've also never heard anyone say that _any_ Arcturus tube sucks.  The 7F7 is electrically identical to a 6SL7 (despite the seller labeling it as a 6SN7), it just has a loctal base so you'll need an adapter. Probably LOTS of cheap and excellent 7F7's around as they don't ping much on audiophile radar scopes.



Psst psst don't tell anyone else about this ok?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Psst psst don't tell anyone else about this ok?


My lips are sealed (for a small fee).


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Slacker.  What, are you taking the day off?



Hahahaha.... I am too busy listening to music now. I'll show you a picture I took about 1 or 2 days after Odyssey came.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> My lips are sealed (for a small fee).


 Can you make the font smaller so no one can see?


----------



## UntilThen

Bcowen, I do have a 7N7 to 6SN7 adapter and I've one (and only one) 7N7 which I tried in Elise several decades ago. Still have the tube and adapters. Pairs.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Bcowen, I do have a 7N7 to 6SN7 adapter and I've one (and only one) 7N7 which I tried in Elise several decades ago. Still have the tube and adapters. Pairs.


Cool beans!  All you need now is the tube secret thing.


----------



## UntilThen

A new thread started on KT88 / El34 etc. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...4654-4699-kt63-kt61-etc.959519/#post-16543880

Hop over if you're interested.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Cool beans!  All you need now is the *tube* secret thing.


FTFY 🤣👍


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Psst psst don't tell anyone else about this ok?


What you mean about *the 7F7*... I won't tell a soul 😜


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Kind of interesting how the great majority of 6SL7's have round plates, and only a select few 6SN7's have round plates.  Don't ask me why 'cause I don't know, just an observation.


Wow, that never occurred to me!


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> You should get this too.  I've never heard one, but I've also never heard anyone say that _any_ Arcturus tube sucks.   The 7F7 is electrically identical to a 6SL7 (despite the seller labeling it as a 6SN7), it just has a loctal base so you'll need an adapter.  Probably LOTS of cheap and excellent 7F7's around as they don't ping much on audiophile radar scopes.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/234054306097?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item367eb94931:g:hjMAAOSw7DZgymCZ&amdata=enc:AQAGAAACkPYe5NmHp%2B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkPrKr5t53CooMSQt2orsSRAQR8FABHjfpFoyRlXhWmZNiEIY1ja2QEaMr2%2BAgCSpCOWAvMEZyEVqB%2BnfFB7QroYwD3uqZM5n%2FCPqBYGCM65yN%2FUCsNk6rfyFLnjSz0JRMA6Ky7l2YmDWnrJ77OFuay1XW5nz2AS2y5UT8n7VWVcFyZuPIpV1UiApnC3uXs1sG7g6SjultueodlH1yGuLmq9z%2F%2FRNaIxJc8%2FugvXy3Rjy4oNrVYAmH9mnECg9mZEGg8%2B5roBgl%2FdHmhb%2BqHjat%2BLJQ0JSAueOWFVixy8lTMR64Jx2eiaROLYFQjY0%2FSxiliFo7EtHe4TgAwgr5T3ozN6b85WlTxGigqWp5FyzaAld0I5qpehkGxgz5M0BBd%2FSzKdY60thdIKubMT4X7S4KQLvbldaKcnCeQ59AcuerWr%2Bk%2BWJVPreFPaBBRFkm%2F37CHGghGbjGcVBpvbvLfnvL16I68WS5pB8g%2FWW2Y%2BNtPcF5%2Br74hzBxnu3ZPC4jsZC%2BR7CwIq818d1cqyU0VtoS51Jm6r1eeZiPu1%2Faq8KRI9vne0deOnWYZ7G7u5WSs1NzyHfzln0TN0rSade9uwl8Xc3lmSscfw2pNQVrEnSSdii2%2FLjN6rF9jRm4Wvs0y9cq%2B%2FUuYOO0h9lT39ha1ZPfF02fWRl8hmEpFkrdYh7gv8GwZ7XUPUjwYq3Q9P9vTSiEK7jejR2tlnDpo2niK6s9hJ3eTLQ3%2BFKaFzejThy4D4s5cOI%2F4ftNjM8we0LS2THLk8eJPSsS4q1f2bYAx%2BZzqlX8xcxda65aMon%2Fl7y05POteFcqIPiLrKDprujlHNe8mUk24%2FF8TvqUtw5df%2B8I|ampidL_CLK|clp:2334524
> 
> ...


Yeah, I have come across the 7F7's, they are excellent, have the short pins for less interference, and more importantly are dirt cheap. 😉


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> My lips are sealed (for a *large* fee).


FTFY 🤣


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> What you mean about *the 7F7*... I won't tell a soul 😜



Far too many tubes around for me to chase 7F7.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Far too many tubes around for me to chase 7F7.


Right! At least the price will stay down then .


----------



## UntilThen

If you come across cheap ECC35, ECC33, ECC32 then let me know. Whisper.


----------



## UntilThen

I say it on the first week and I say it again now. Odyssey makes ordinary tubes sound great. Which means something else is doing the heavy lifting of great SQ here.


----------



## UntilThen

Something else that I want to get in the not too long future is this mother of all rectifier with Woo adapter. That will be a perfect match with Odyssey.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I say it on the first week and I say it again now. Odyssey makes ordinary tubes sound great. Which means something else is doing the heavy lifting of great SQ here.


Sonic probably wouldn't comment himself but I think the key to this probably is getting each tube type operating at it's idea bias point. Most amps set a figure which suits all tube types on average but doesn't optimise for a particular type.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Sonic probably wouldn't comment himself but I think the key to this probably is getting each tube type operating at it's idea bias point. Most amps set a figure which suits all tube types on average but doesn't optimise for a particular type.



Absolutely but he also optimise the use of good boutique parts. I know he starts of with doing the schematics in the design stage... after I tell him what I want.

I am quite stingy with my praise but Tomas has no idea what he has created here.   Which is why I think if he does a 300b amp with what he has done for Odyssey, that amp will be amazing.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I am quite stingy with my praise but Tomas has no idea what he has created here.  Which is why I think if he does a 300b amp with what he has done for Odyssey, that amp will be amazing.


Thanks, Matt! 
Yes! The 300B version is underway. It will be called Telemachus! The son of Odyssey! The design is done and I'll build it in the end of this year!


----------



## UntilThen (Sep 5, 2021)

SonicTrance said:


> Thanks, Matt!
> Yes! The 300B version is underway. It will be called Telemachus! The son of Odyssey! The design is done and I'll build it in the end of this year!



What the... I wasn't even aware that Odyssey has a son.   Same chassis as Odyssey? Would look a great pair side by side !

Pair of drivers in front. Back row centre is the rectifier, flank by the 300b tubes. Transformers behind. Perfect.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> What the... I wasn't even aware that Odyssey has a son.   Same chassis as Odyssey? Would look a great pair side by side !


It will have a silver chassis but bigger than the Odyssey one. It needs to be bigger to accommodate for the 300B filament supplies. 



UntilThen said:


> Pair of drivers in front. Back row centre is the rectifier, flank by the 300b tubes. Transformers behind. Perfect.


That's the layout, yes.


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> Thanks, Matt!
> Yes! The 300B version is underway. It will be called Telemachus! The son of Odyssey! The design is done and I'll build it in the end of this year!


Oh my.  You have my full attention!  Like forever from now.    

I want mine called EGAD -- *E*nd *G*ame *A*mp, *D*amnit!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> It will have a silver chassis but bigger than the Odyssey one. It needs to be bigger to accommodate for the 300B filament supplies.
> 
> 
> That's the layout, yes.



My eyes are glassy now. Listening to 'You and your friend' Dire Straits. Brimar 6sl7 and Gec Kt66 captures the soul and essence of the song. Odyssey sound way too good now. 

My eyes are glassy not from what I'm hearing but what you have just said above.

Now Bcowen wants Telemarcus except he wants to call it Egad.... I will call it Enigma. You have my full attention too !


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey from the top.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 5, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> My eyes are glassy now. *Listening to 'You and your friend' Dire Straits*. Brimar 6sl7 and Gec Kt66 captures the soul and essence of the song. Odyssey sound way too good now.
> 
> My eyes are glassy not from what I'm hearing but what you have just said above.
> 
> Now Bcowen wants Telemarcus except he wants to call it Egad.... I will call it Enigma. You have my full attention too !



Ahhh....a timeless favorite of mine.  Have you listened to the live version from the "On The Night" album?  Gives me goosebumps every time I listen to it, and bet it sounds even more magnificent with your equipment.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Ahhh....a timeless favorite of mine.  Have you listened to the live version from the "On The Night" album?  Gives me goosebumps every time I listen to it, and bet it sounds even more magnificent with your equipment.



Listening to On the Night, I didn't want the night to end. Thanks Bill, this sends shivers up my spine. Odyssey has cast a spell on me. Maybe it's the sirens.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Ahhh....a timeless favorite of mine.  Have you listened to the live version from the "On The Night" album?  Gives me goosebumps every time I listen to it, and bet it sounds even more magnificent with your equipment.


The studio version isn't bad either, but now I must check out that live album!


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Slacker.  What, are you taking the day off?



Slacker. You're nowhere to be seen today.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Slacker. You're nowhere to be seen today.


Power has been out for several hours.  Estimate from the utility is it will be another 6 hours before it’s restored.  Now I gotta go get gas for the generator.  Pesky first-world problems.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Power has been out for several hours.  Estimate from the utility is it will be another 6 hours before it’s restored.  Now I gotta go get gas for the generator.  Pesky first-world problems.



Yeah I heard that excuse before. Don't you have a tube generator? One with a GE brand?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Yeah I heard that excuse before. Don't you have a tube generator? One with a GE brand?


Be nice. I had time reserved tonight to enjoy some music.  Now all I get to listen to is Briggs & Stratton.  It *is* a live performance I suppose, but the musicians suck.


----------



## UntilThen

Briggs & Stratton is a lawn mower. 😂


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Be nice. I had time reserved tonight to enjoy some music.  Now all I get to listen to is Briggs & Stratton.  It *is* a live performance I suppose, but the musicians suck.


Is the opening act Smith & Wesson?…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Power has been out for several hours.  Estimate from the utility is it will be another 6 hours before it’s restored.  Now I gotta go get gas for the generator.  Pesky first-world problems.


If your utility uses solid-state….the cowen house is echoing for hours with darkvoices 😖…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> If your utility uses solid-state….the cowen house is echoing for hours with darkvoices 😖…


Actually, for the incoming AC power I'm good with solid state.  Just so long as there are tubes between it and my ears at some point.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Briggs & Stratton is a lawn mower. 😂


Since I can't listen to music, might as well mow the lawn.  No?   

But to tell the truth, my lawnmower has a Kohler engine.  The generator has the Briggs and Stratton....and it's LOUD.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> If you come across cheap ECC35, ECC33, *ECC32 *then let me know. Whisper.


 I always wanted to try an ECC32 / CV181 but man they are pricey, GEC NOS KT88 range. Are they that splendid?


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> I always wanted to try an ECC32 / CV181 but man they are pricey, GEC NOS KT88 range. Are they that splendid?



I've no idea. I have only tried ECC31 which is rather warm. ECC32 might be in the same mole. I'm more keen on a ECC35 which is sort of the 6SL7 family type.


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 6, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> I always wanted to try an ECC32 / CV181 but man they are pricey, GEC NOS KT88 range. Are they that splendid?


I've tried Mullard ECC32 and personally was disappointed, I didn't think they were special like you would expect from Mullards. I do know however that people that have tried them say different, sorry.

Edit: I just remembered I did have a 1950's Brimar CV1988/ECC33 which was typical Brimar, powerful, dynamic, but as I said before I preferred the TS6SN7 BGRP.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Power has been out for several hours.  Estimate from the utility is it will be another 6 hours before it’s restored.  Now I gotta go get gas for the generator.  Pesky first-world problems.


Sounds like one for Sonic, a gas powered amp, *very* old school LOL .


----------



## UntilThen

Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base has arrived and I have several hours of listening. Can't believe 1956 tubes preserving so well and the tone is exquisite. All that I dream possible for Odyssey is here. Such smoothness and rich tone.


----------



## UntilThen

Bcowen what have you done, I have a power failure now.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Bcowen what have you done, I have a power failure now.


Yeah I heard that excuse before. Don't you have a tube generator?


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base has arrived and I have several hours of listening. Can't believe 1956 tubes preserving so well and the tone is exquisite. All that I dream possible for Odyssey is here. Such smoothness and rich tone.


Hmmm what tubes can we put up front that also have a metal base?

Very strange that there were a number of power failures across the world yesterday. Our power was out for an hour yesterday as well. I was using the Dremmel to clean tube pins and I had to go back to the old fashioned way.


----------



## bcowen

leftside said:


> Hmmm what tubes can we put up front that also have a metal base?
> 
> Very strange that there were a number of power failures across the world yesterday. Our power was out for an hour yesterday as well. I was using the Dremmel to clean tube pins and I had to go back to the old fashioned way.


Mine was out for about 9 hours.  The text from the utility stated it was "object in contact with the line."  What was really weird was that my next door neighbors on one side were out but the ones on the other side still had power (as did the rest of the street as far as I could see).  All our lines in the neighborhood are underground and I didn't see any utility guys working on anything nearby, so the issue had to occur at some distance away which makes it strange that only a few houses in the middle of others were affected.  And of course the minute I pulled back in the driveway with a full gas can is when the power came back on.


----------



## triod750

bcowen said:


> And of course the minute I pulled back in the driveway with a full gas can is when the power came back on.


Now you know how to solve the problem next time. "Always look at the bright side of life".


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Hmmm what tubes can we put up front that also have a metal base?
> 
> Very strange that there were a number of power failures across the world yesterday. Our power was out for an hour yesterday as well. I was using the Dremmel to clean tube pins and I had to go back to the old fashioned way.



I could use a Melz 6SL7 or 6SN7 metal base but I don't think there is a metal base EL11.   

I think the martians have landed. That's why we are getting power failures globally. I was without power for an agonising 30 mins just as I was getting into the groove with the metal plates !


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I could use a Melz 6SL7 or 6SN7 metal base but I don't think there is a metal base EL11.
> 
> I think the martians have landed. That's why we are getting power failures globally. I was without power for an agonising 30 mins just as I was getting into the groove with the metal plates !


Very strange. I'd just put in a metal base Mullard 6080 when mine went out.  If we did this simultaneously, perhaps we unwittingly caused a shift in earth's magnetic field?  Are you still down under, or suddenly up top?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Very strange. I'd just put in a metal base Mullard 6080 when mine went out.  If we did this simultaneously, perhaps we unwittingly caused a shift in earth's magnetic field?  Are you still down under, or suddenly up top?


And are Philips EGCs now holy grails?…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> And are Philips EGCs now holy grails?…


That would only happen if the moon is destroyed and the lack of gravitational pull causes the earth to start wobbling on its axis.  That would suck.


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> Can't believe 1956 tubes preserving so well and the tone is exquisite



I always found that the older the tube, the better. I really don't know why. It goes against rational. Its as if technology was different and superior , and we went downhill (generally) in tube sound.

Isn't it almost bewildering how such old tech can give such indescribable experience. 
The tube makers must have had special insight into the material composition they used in those tubes.


----------



## Galapac

Maxx134 said:


> I always found that the older the tube, the better. I really don't know why. It goes against rational. Its as if technology was different and superior , and we went downhill (generally) in tube sound.
> 
> Isn't it almost bewildering how such old tech can give such indescribable experience.
> The tube makers must have had special insight into the material composition they used in those tubes.



I always wondered what they used in the tubes back then that they can no longer use due to it’s harmful nature…gotta go find that Geiger counter...


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> I always found that the older the tube, the better. I really don't know why. It goes against rational. Its as if technology was different and superior , and we went downhill (generally) in tube sound.
> 
> Isn't it almost bewildering how such old tech can give such indescribable experience.
> The tube makers must have had special insight into the material composition they used in those tubes.



I think as tube manufacture progresses from whence it started, cost cutting comes in to maximise profit. Current production Mullard EL34 ain't too shabby. I've heard it once on loan from a friend but these NOS variety are clearly more refined in tone.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> I could use a Melz 6SL7 or 6SN7 metal base but I don't think there is a metal base EL11.
> 
> I think the martians have landed. That's why we are getting power failures globally. I was without power for an agonising 30 mins just as I was getting into the groove with the metal plates !




Is this an EL34 to EL12 adapter?
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1piece-EL34-6L6-instead-EL12-tube-converter-adapter-/193442643711


----------



## Maxx134 (Sep 6, 2021)

I found out that the "old world", really did know how to use tubes!:




😳😯😯😯


😲🤯



Lighted Tubes!!!🤤


----------



## UntilThen

Looks like it but I am not sure I can use EL34 in the EL11 slot. Might cause a power failure 😀


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> I could use a Melz 6SL7 or 6SN7 metal base but I don't think there is a metal base EL11.
> 
> I think the martians have landed. That's why we are getting power failures globally. I was without power for an agonising 30 mins just as I was getting into the groove with the metal plates !


After “they” land and they demand “take me to your tube leader”, do you, Until Then, send them to bcowen?; and do you, bcowen, nefariously give “them” _all_ your GE tubes and thereby _jointly _save humanity and its ears?…


----------



## UntilThen

Bcowen will fly solo on his GE loaded plane into the mothership and save all of head-fi.

We are still on topic yeah?


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Bcowen will fly solo on his GE loaded plane into the mothership and save all of head-fi.
> 
> We are still on topic yeah?


Yes…this started with power outages…which affect all of head-fi…


----------



## UntilThen

Now that power's restored, I could have been happy with just these Shuguang Black Treasure KT88-Z. KT88 are linear and tight with hammer fisted punch, perfectly suited to the LCD4. One of those moments that I stopped and marvel at the dynamics / vibrancy and it's been happening a lot all these days.


----------



## UntilThen

3 weeks on Odyssey drives the Axis Voicebox S with authority.  Only using Brimar 6sl7 and EL34 metal plates in triode mode.


----------



## UntilThen

Incredible tone from the EL34 metal base. It's 2am and female vocalists are serenading to me. These surpass the EL12 spez and EL39 now and it's hard to imagine that's possible. Such smoothness and richness in tone.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> I say it on the first week and I say it again now. Odyssey makes ordinary tubes sound great. Which means something else is doing the heavy lifting of great SQ here.


Your ears…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Your ears…



My ears have never been this spoilt than in the last 3 weeks ! They are elfin ears now. Definitely made more elfin by these metal plates.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> After “they” land and they demand “take me to your tube leader”, do you, Until Then, send them to bcowen?; and do you, bcowen, nefariously give “them” _all_ your GE tubes and thereby _jointly _save humanity and its ears?…


No!  If I gave them all GE tubes, they would conclude that humans are inferior and likely vaporize the entire planet.


----------



## UntilThen

Superman has arrived to connect Odyssey with Axis Voicebox S. No kidding these cables are call Superhero. Pure Aussie goodness.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> No!  If I gave them all GE tubes, they would conclude that humans are inferior and likely vaporize the entire planet.


OK.. enough LOL! GE's are the go to tube for Fender guitars, for that classic Fender twang, and as a Fender guitarist myself I won't hear anything more on the subject. 🤣👎


----------



## UntilThen

Not forgetting GE bought Ken-Rad in 1945.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Not forgetting GE bought Ken-Rad in 1945.


Yup.  Just as the great war was ending and the world rejoiced, _that_ had to happen.


----------



## UntilThen

The eagle has landed.


----------



## UntilThen

Preliminary photo. Odyssey handled the EL156 with aplomb. There was an initial wavering of the meter needle as the auto bias finds it's mark. Eventually settle at ~ 45 mA. Will be back later with impressions but suffice to say that it's a very tight and defined tone. One that I was hoping for. Could live up to it's reputation of being akin to a 300b tube and double of the EL34. Mains transformer is much cooler after several minutes. Just as Tomas told me that using EL156 will actually be cooler on the amp.


----------



## baronbeehive

@bcowen a final word on the Footscray Brimar which you said the guys on the Schiit Monjir thread said was special. It will now be occupying the socket that the Philips had for the last several years. I was afraid the power and fullness of tone would mean that I wouldn't get the treble that I like so much normally. Well the treble on the Brimar is excellent, but the thing that persuaded me to abandon the Philips after all this time was the sheer depth of tone, clarity and timbre of instruments, especially drums but everything else as well which all adds up to something special indeed. The realism is quite something, and the soundstage too. For my baby amp, despite needing the gain of the 12AX7 the Brimar provides all the power I need for this amp so the Brimar is a keeper for me.


----------



## UntilThen

3 days from one month's ownership of Odyssey, I discovered what I consider to be the best sounding power tube. There is no other. It's better than the 300b next to it. Certainly better than the KT88 or EL34 or EL39 or EL12 spez. Linear and tight, lushness of the 300b and a huge holographic presentation. Treble and attack better than KT88. I can hear instruments clearly and with precision. Vocals are rendered beautifully. It's amazing Odyssey can accommodate the Telefunken EL156 and make it perform so well. The love I have for this amp knows no end and once again thanks Tomas !


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> 3 days from one month's ownership of Odyssey, I discovered what I consider to be the best sounding power tube. There is no other. It's better than the 300b next to it. Certainly better than the KT88 or EL34 or EL39 or EL12 spez. Linear and tight, lushness of the 300b and a huge holographic presentation. Treble and attack better than KT88. I can hear instruments clearly and with precision. Vocals are rendered beautifully. It's amazing Odyssey can accommodate the Telefunken EL156 and make it perform so well. The love I have for this amp knows no end and once again thanks Tomas !


Interesting!!! My Glenn 6EL3N amp uses EL34/KT66/77/88 for output, so in theory I could try those EL156 tubes, too... hmmm.....


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> @bcowen a final word on the Footscray Brimar which you said the guys on the Schiit Monjir thread said was special. It will now be occupying the socket that the Philips had for the last several years. I was afraid the power and fullness of tone would mean that I wouldn't get the treble that I like so much normally. Well the treble on the Brimar is excellent, but the thing that persuaded me to abandon the Philips after all this time was the sheer depth of tone, clarity and timbre of instruments, especially drums but everything else as well which all adds up to something special indeed. The realism is quite something, and the soundstage too. For my baby amp, despite needing the gain of the 12AX7 the Brimar provides all the power I need for this amp so the Brimar is a keeper for me.


Cool!  I think it's the tone and timbre you note that I find most alluring....without sacrificing bass power and/or treble detail in the process.  I've found some Brimars to be lightweight in the bass and more focused on the mids and treble, but not these.


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Interesting!!! My Glenn 6EL3N amp uses EL34/KT66/77/88 for output, so in theory I could try those EL156 tubes, too... hmmm.....



Probably but check with Glenn first. EL156 is 1.9a each.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Probably but check with Glenn first. EL156 is 1.9a each.


That amp supports 2 x EL3N tubes for output. That is 2 x 0.9A = 1.8A so pretty close!
In fact, each channel has a "budget" of 3.1A - so EL3N driver + EL156 output = 0.9A + 1.9A = 2.8A total 
I am wondering *whether EL156 and KT88 are "compatible"* other than pins/base (adapter fixes that) and power (my amp can accommodate the added power)...
In other words, can EL156 be used in any KT88 amp with the adapter (assuming power budget is there)? No special / fancy design tricks by Tomas?


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> I am wondering *whether EL156 and KT88 are "compatible"*



Pretty much but don't quote me if your amp blows up.  Google it. Someone said...

' The EL156 is more similar to a EL34 than a KT88. Think of the EL156 as an EL34 on steroids. ONE EL156 is roughly equal to two EL34s'.

and..

'This tube is pin compatible with KT88 and "can" replace KT88 but it has higher plate dissipation, hence gives more power.
It was first made by Telefunken as a substitute for KT88, now you buy it from China.
Just like KT88 you can wire it as KT88 in triode mode however it will give you more power'.

I should let Tomas explain here because I consult him.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> don't quote me if your amp blows up.


I did send an email to Glenn, just to be on the safe side, but since he has been MIA for quite some time - not too optimistic about hearing back from him 
(I hope he's doing OK...)


----------



## UntilThen

Not much is written about the EL156 but JACMUSIC call it the crown.
http://www.jacmusic.com/KT88/kt88.htm

To my ears, there's a certain crispness and a very powerful sound force. Underlying that is the smoothness of the EL34. A sound signature that is totally agreeable to me.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Not much is written about the EL156 but JACMUSIC call it the crown.
> http://www.jacmusic.com/KT88/kt88.htm
> 
> To my ears, there's a certain crispness and a very powerful sound force. Underlying that is the smoothness of the EL34. A sound signature that is totally agreeable to me.


In the KT88 family, Jacmusic votes for the Russian GU-50/ГУ-50. This tube has its own pinout , uses 12V and draws 0.8A. And it is very inexpensive - you can find them for less than $5 each + shipping. 
BTW, the GU-50 was based on (or cloned from?) another Telefunken tube - the LS50.
The GU50 has Zirconium and Barium getters for as total of 4 getters. It is extremely resistant to heat and can be run red hot. 40W continous operation, 55W peak. The metal base is so strong that Jacmusic claims it can be used as a hammer! He claims that the GU50 can be substituted for a 300B tube with certain caveats.
https://www.jacmusic.com/techcorner/ARTICLES/English/Portraits/GM50/index-GM50-Portraits.html
Go down almost halfway on this page to find more information about the GU50:
http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/pentodes.html

I want a GU50 amp...


----------



## jonathan c

mordy said:


> In the KT88 family, Jacmusic votes for the Russian GU-50/ГУ-50. This tube has its own pinout , uses 12V and draws 0.8A. And it is very inexpensive - you can find them for less than $5 each + shipping.
> BTW, the GU-50 was based on (or cloned from?) another Telefunken tube - the LS50.
> The GU50 has Zirconium and Barium getters for as total of 4 getters. It is extremely resistant to heat and can be run red hot. 40W continous operation, 55W peak. The metal base is so strong that Jacmusic claims it can be used as a hammer! He claims that the GU50 can be substituted for a 300B tube with certain caveats.
> https://www.jacmusic.com/techcorner/ARTICLES/English/Portraits/GM50/index-GM50-Portraits.html
> ...


….twin mono?…


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> In the KT88 family, Jacmusic votes for the Russian GU-50/ГУ-50. This tube has its own pinout , uses 12V and draws 0.8A. And it is very inexpensive - you can find them for less than $5 each + shipping.
> BTW, the GU-50 was based on (or cloned from?) another Telefunken tube - the LS50.
> The GU50 has Zirconium and Barium getters for as total of 4 getters. It is extremely resistant to heat and can be run red hot. 40W continous operation, 55W peak. The metal base is so strong that Jacmusic claims it can be used as a hammer! He claims that the GU50 can be substituted for a 300B tube with certain caveats.
> https://www.jacmusic.com/techcorner/ARTICLES/English/Portraits/GM50/index-GM50-Portraits.html
> ...



You can have a GU50 amp but I prefer one with more versatility like Odyssey.  @hpamdr uses GU50 on his Eternity. Has to be with an adapter.


----------



## mordy

jonathan c said:


> ….twin mono?…


The implementation I have to leave for the amp designers - not familiar with those things. 
I am kind of allergic to more adapters though. The GU-50 has eight pins but no guide pin (there is a ridge on the glass for orientation) and it is possible to insert it the wrong way.
There is actually a GEC tube with an anode cap that may be similar - the TT22. And it exists as a 6V version as well - the TT21. But not $5 territory...


----------



## UntilThen

Just heard some GU50 amps on Youtube and they are pretty good. However it's all in the implementations. In Odyssey, I've been amazed by the sound from many power tubes. Sowter transformers contributing no doubt. Lundahl would have been good too. 

I just like Tomas tuning. Fast transients, crispy clear highs, engaging mids that is neither recessed or too forward and tight bass with lovely decays. Lush and transparent at the same time. Sweet and liquid. It's almost good enough to be eaten.

I won't touch TT21 and I'll be going with KT88 but at this rate, do I need the GEC KT88?  Just found a supplier for another pair of EL156. My supplier is sending me another pair of Miniwatt EL34 metal base.


----------



## hpamdr

GU50 are very dynamic tubes with deep bass and crispy highs.. Most design are made for speaker amp with standard design and multiple tube per side to have a lot of power running over 300V.  It was a targeted tube for my Eternity amplifier with 6/12: heating circuit since the start. 
if you use full Russian socket with cage for adapter, you do not have issues to misplace as the glass rail have it's own track. You can also just put a sign on the ceramic in front of the rail to not misplace. 
I personally like a lot this tube as it is powerful and pair well with Heedphone using EL11 or NR73 as input. It could be felt dryer than EL34, KT66 ... but to me it is just very precise and as dynamic as dynamite 🧨

About the price it should be warned that you need to get a bunch to match tube pair yourself. And probably why investing in some measurements instrument can be a good idea.


----------



## UntilThen

Crispy highs and deep bass are what I described about the very much better constructed Telefunken EL156.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Crispy highs and deep bass are what I described about the very much better constructed Telefunken EL156.


I did no found any pair of original EL156 for a decent price... so cannot say anything about it...


----------



## UntilThen

They wouldn't be cheap. Almost catching up with GEC KT88 price.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Cool!  I think it's the tone and timbre you note that I find most alluring....without sacrificing bass power and/or treble detail in the process.  I've found some Brimars to be lightweight in the bass and more focused on the mids and treble, but not these.


I didn't realise you had these, I thought your mind wasn't made up about trying them? Yes that dynamism and clarity help make the soundstage probably the best I have heard. And I just felt that the realism wasn't quite at the same level with the Philips although they are still great.


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> I always found that the older the tube, the better. I really don't know why. It goes against rational. Its as if technology was different and superior , and we went downhill (generally) in tube sound.
> 
> Isn't it almost bewildering how such old tech can give such indescribable experience.
> The tube makers must have had special insight into the material composition they used in those tubes.


Yeah right . It is a mystery to me how they did this. One thing that I have noticed the construction seems more substantial, more rigid support rods, getters, and plates, sometimes thicker glass envelopes. Looking at the 1950's Footscray Brimar you can see this. And maybe some mystery angel dust they breathed into the vacuum before sealing the tube 🤤👍.


----------



## SonicTrance

Zachik said:


> In other words, can EL156 be used in any KT88 amp with the adapter (assuming power budget is there)? No special / fancy design tricks by Tomas?


If it's a cathode biased amp go for it. As long as you have enough A on the heater winding the amp will run cooler with EL156 than KT88 with the same cathode resistor and the EL156 can handle the high voltage.

If it's a grid (fixed) bias amp you shouldn't use any other tube than stock.


----------



## UntilThen

On the eve of returning to Sydney, I listen to Oblivion one more time. Haven't powered it on for a few weeks. I'm grinning now because I spend so much on tubes for Odyssey but here Oblivion with cheap tubes sound amazing. Odyssey and Oblivion makes good contrast. That's the plan at the beginning. To let the 2 coexist. The drum kicks comes on and I marvel that it sounded so real and with impact from Oblivion.


----------



## UntilThen

Kind of Magic came on and it's unreal.   Sigh I miss spending time with Oblivion.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

Just realised that the size of oblivion does surprise me! Thought it would be like cavalli liquid fire or even smaller.


----------



## UntilThen

It is big alright. You would have seen lots of my pictures of Oblivion. Have you got the Oblivion yet?


----------



## UntilThen

But it's imposing and grand. It's the sound that gets me on both LCD4 and He1000se.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

UntilThen said:


> It is big alright. You would have seen lots of my pictures of Oblivion. Have you got the Oblivion yet?


Yes, the "loaned" unit is here. 

To put initial impression in one sentence: This amp is so good that it scares me


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> To put initial impression in one sentence: This amp is so good that it scares me



Ok.... at least I'm not delusional.   

May I ask ... even if you've just got it... what headphone were you using with Oblivion and what dac. It's useful for me to know what is your system setup and I know you have some nice gear.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

UntilThen said:


> Ok.... at least I'm not delusional.
> 
> May I ask ... even if you've just got it... what headphone were you using with Oblivion and what dac. It's useful for me to know what is your system setup and I know you have some nice gear.


Currently with Chord TT2 and Diana Phi.

Perhaps I just got so hyped up about the arrival, but for now I think Oblivion throne Formula S as my most favourite amp for Diana Phi. Need to check with side by side comparison later. Two things for sure, Tomas amp project bigger and more holographic soundstage with more fluid presentation for each notes of instrument than Formula S.


----------



## UntilThen

That's good. Everyone knows that Formula S is good with Abyss and your statement is quite telling there. Initial impressions are important because it's what you hear on first listen. I'll let you spend more time with Oblivion then you can tell us more. 

Unfortunately not many people have sample Oblivion yet but I've always been right about it's tone. I sold off GOTL and Studio Six but kept Oblivion. That's how I feel about it.


----------



## TheMiddleSky (Sep 10, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> That's good. Everyone knows that Formula S is good with Abyss and your statement is quite telling there. Initial impressions are important because it's what you hear on first listen. I'll let you spend more time with Oblivion then you can tell us more.
> 
> Unfortunately not many people have sample Oblivion yet but I've always been right about it's tone. I sold off GOTL and Studio Six but kept Oblivion. That's how I feel about it.



The "problem" with Formula S is it can't keep up with the transient flow of TT2, the result is sound become less fluid and effortless, thus for me become less "lifelike". That is why in the end I stay with direct from Chord. I'm fully aware that this problem is exist in my personal taste, as Formula S is about being flat and neutral.

Oblivion able to amplified the fluidity with more bottom end compare to HO on TT2.


----------



## Zachik

SonicTrance said:


> If it's a cathode biased amp go for it. As long as you have enough A on the heater winding the amp will run cooler with EL156 than KT88 with the same cathode resistor and the EL156 can handle the high voltage.
> 
> If it's a grid (fixed) bias amp you shouldn't use any other tube than stock.


Hmmm... good question!
I do not know the answer, but I DO know that Glenn has told me I can use without any issues: EL34, KT-61/63/66/77/88, 6550 and KT-120. 
So... my educated guess is that the EL156 is safe (with the adapter).
Glenn has been MIA for a long while... I did send him an email yesterday so maybe will get a reply at some point.
To be 100% honest, I have so many tubes for this amp that I will not be heartbroken if I cannot use the EL156


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> The "problem" with Formula S is it can't keep up with the transient flow of TT2, the result is sound become less fluid and effortless, thus for me become less "lifelike". That is why in the end I stay with direct from Chord. I'm fully aware that this problem is exist in my personal taste, as Formula S is about being flat and neutral.
> 
> Oblivion able to amplified the fluidity with more bottom end compare to HO on TT2.



It's all about personal taste but it's easy to love tube amp.   I was at Minidisc for 2 hours on 2 occasions. On the first occasion, the setup Wing had for me was Chord Qutest > Auris Nirvana > LCD4. After this session, I told myself I need the LCD4 which I eventually got. I also told myself I need an amp like Auris Nirvana. I don't need Qutest because Yggdrasil is indispensable for me. 

On the 2nd occasion I was there to audition Susvara and I intend to spend time with it. Wing asked what amp and dac I would like to use. I pointed to Chord Hugo TT2 and M'Scalar and they are in black ! So I listen for a good 45 mins. Very clear, lots of details. Would be great for jazz. However I felt something was missing for me. The tube tone was missing and the 2nd harmonic distortions. So Wing added Auris Nirvana to the chain. That's when I say yeah that's more like my end game but the whole setup is a cool AUD$23,000.  

Anyway here I am now with Yggdrasil, Odyssey and Oblivion... and LCD4 and He1000se. I'm pretty much done because the sound is as good if not better than Chord Hugo TT2 + M'Scalar + Auris Nirvana + Susvara. I'm done.... but I not quite yet until I add Abyss TC or Susvara to the mix.

Now to get ready to go home and bring most of my gear with me.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> It's all about personal taste but it's easy to love tube amp.   I was at Minidisc for 2 hours on 2 occasions. On the first occasion, the setup Wing had for me was Chord Qutest > Auris Nirvana > LCD4. After this session, I told myself I need the LCD4 which I eventually got. I also told myself I need an amp like Auris Nirvana. I don't need Qutest because Yggdrasil is indispensable for me.
> 
> On the 2nd occasion I was there to audition Susvara and I intend to spend time with it. Wing asked what amp and dac I would like to use. I pointed to Chord Hugo TT2 and M'Scalar and they are in black ! So I listen for a good 45 mins. Very clear, lots of details. Would be great for jazz. However I felt something was missing for me. The tube tone was missing and the 2nd harmonic distortions. So Wing added Auris Nirvana to the chain. That's when I say yeah that's more like my end game but the whole setup is a cool AUD$23,000.
> 
> ...


It never ends...


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> It never ends...



Nearly there or there already.  But I keep thinking about what Tomas can do with a 300b amp using Sowter irons, Yamamoto sockets and some boutique caps.


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Hmmm... good question!
> I do not know the answer, but I DO know that Glenn has told me I can use without any issues: EL34, KT-61/63/66/77/88, 6550 and KT-120.
> So... my educated guess is that the EL156 is safe (with the adapter).
> Glenn has been MIA for a long while... I did send him an email yesterday so maybe will get a reply at some point.
> To be 100% honest, I have so many tubes for this amp that I will not be heartbroken if I cannot use the EL156



Try it. Try the EL156. My other NOS tubes of EL34, 66, 6550, EL39, EL12 spez are almost too good to be true in Odyssey but EL156 is something else. With a big tube, I expect a bloomy tone but it's not. It's tight, transparent and linear. Fast transients but oh so sweet and dynamic tube tone.

I like it with both 6SL7 or EL11. Using GZ32 now to dial in some warmth.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> I didn't realise you had these, I thought your mind wasn't made up about trying them? Yes that dynamism and clarity help make the soundstage probably the best I have heard. And I just felt that the realism wasn't quite at the same level with the Philips although they are still great.


I bought a pair due to all the drooling over these in the MJ thread and subsequent FOMO.   Unfortunately they don't work well in my main listening amp (Incubus) due to the 3X gain over its native 6SN7. They work very nicely in the Vali 2 though, and elevate the performance of that amp several rungs up the ladder. Of course putting a $100+ tube in a $150 amp isn't entirely normal, but then neither am I. (but that also wasn't my original intent )


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Ok.... at least I'm not delusional.


That's a matter of perspective.


----------



## Maxx134 (Sep 10, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I spend so much on tubes for Odyssey but here Oblivion with cheap tubes sound amazing


Blasphemy! How dare you use cheap tubes!
After what I did...
Mullard:

Mazda & (Mullard drivers):


But, then again, these were the most dynamic:

And cheap!

Yet Tubes performance don't change the glorious nature of this amp.
It stays grand and glorious.





TheMiddleSky said:


> Two things for sure, Tomas amp project bigger and more holographic soundstage with more fluid presentation for eac


VERY few amps lay out soundstage & layering as glorious and precise as this amp.

I been a bad boy...



Swapped out first stage caps...

Made it sweeter than a 300b I had on hand to compare to...

Even with best Sylvania & Western Electric tubes... No match for the "Oblivion".

I am set.. end game here. It is my reference amp.
Yet that doesn't mean I can only have one. The "Oblivion" has too many siblings here...
😊


----------



## bcowen

Maxx134 said:


> Blasphemy! How dare you use cheap tubes!
> After what I did...
> Mullard:
> 
> ...


How does the 300SEI do with headphones?  Always wondered that as I can't find any specs for the headphone output.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Blasphemy! How dare you use cheap tubes!



Well cheap compared to Odyssey tubes 😀

Just as I was leaving for Sydney, the Mazda and Miniwatt Dario 6av6 arrived. So will try it this evening when I get home.


----------



## Maxx134 (Sep 11, 2021)

bcowen said:


> How does the 300SEI do with headphones?  Always wondered that as I can't find any specs for the headphone output.


The headphone out, is simply the output with a resistor network. But some relay is in between.
This unit was modified to bypass that relay circuit, and go straight from transformers to headphones (resistor network).
Actually the output is decent amd average for a speaker amp to headphones.
The Oblivion has more & cleaner output, but that unit is super sweet as it was highly modified with silver coupling caps and best Cathode caps and silver wiring. We talking an amazing level of sonics both units achieve. Top notch. Those 300b Western Electric tubes are no joke seriously die for tube Heaven. For Oblivion to match & eclipse is nothing short of remarkable.

 Soundstage is beautiful on that 300i, but I must reiterate, nothing I heard yet beats Oblivion in that area. You might wanna put an EC Studio to battle the Oblivion in that aspect. I remember this unit:

 The citadel having a large vibrant soundstage as well.


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> I been a bad boy...


That's good .


Maxx134 said:


> Even with best Sylvania & Western Electric tubes... No match for the "Oblivion".


Looks like you nearly spent your last pennies ☺️


----------



## UntilThen

Back home in Sydney and gear all setup. Don't go selling off your EL34 metal base just because I praise the EL156  endlessly.  These skinny metal base can hold up a candle to the fat boy and they do so with less heat on the mains transformer. These 2 tubes are really good but so are my other NOS tubes. Odyssey is well served.


----------



## Maxx134 (Sep 11, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> Looks like you nearly spent your last pennies ☺️


Actually yes I did, on a nearly "perfect" & portable source for my amps.
The iBasso 300max Dap,  which replace my dx220max, and both have dedicated balanced line out... 😊


You can still find some if your patient & look hard enough.


----------



## TheMiddleSky (Sep 11, 2021)

After spent more time with Oblivion, time to switch DAC to Qutest to understand more about this amp.

(Drasitcally) character become drier, narrower staging, with thinner body overall and now fluid + effortless feel also missing.

My impression become more linear with many other's impression here, Oblivion definitely at close to neutral side, with nice bloom on midrange and bass that remain fast and far from being syrupy. Soundstage is the main point here, the imaging accuracy, and 3D depth is excellent.

Back to TT2, I thought Oblivion is kind of thick and slight on mellow side, but apparently they just amplified the TT2's sound (TT2 has the sweetest sound of Chord products).

To my system, my playlist and my preference, TT2 is easily my better choice here.

So to add my finding, I'm more than sure that Oblivion is a highly transparent amp (and I love this fact!). Good source is definitely the key to enjoy this product.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Nearly there or there already.  But I keep thinking about what Tomas can do with a 300b amp using Sowter irons, Yamamoto sockets and some boutique caps.


The impending arrival of that 300B amp in your living room must be the worst kept secret here ☺️👍.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Actually yes I did, on a nearly "perfect" & portable source for my amps.
> The iBasso 300max Dap, which replace my dx220max, and both have dedicated balanced line out... 😊



My son bought the 300max with Empire Ears Odin. I have not consider them as source in my setup.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> After spent more time with Oblivion, time to switch DAC to Qutest to understand more about this amp.
> 
> (Drasitcally) character become drier, narrower staging, with thinner body overall and now fluid + effortless feel also missing.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the feedback. It's a refreshing change to get another opinion.

I've just received the 6AV6 tubes in like new condition. Oliver the seller refunded my money when I told him the tubes didn't come after a long time. Soon as I do that the tubes came. I need to refund his refund because he's an amazing seller and French man. Even enclosed a thank you note in the box. Such curtesy is rare these days.

I'll roll them in Oblivion after I check out the neighbourhood.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> The impending arrival of that 300B amp in your living room must be the worst kept secret here ☺️👍.



That ain't going to happen ............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. yet. 

Each dot is a week.


----------



## UntilThen

I was willing to put Odyssey aside for Oblivion today. The aim is to test out the 2 new pairs of 6av6 drivers. They have top getters which according to Tomas have a tendency to be noisy. First to go in is the Dario Miniwatt 6av6 with green letters. The tubes are so new, the green letters are perfect and the boxes are like they have come out of the press. To my delight, they are totally quiet. To my further delight, they sound very good. It's one of those moments when I think to myself, why didn't I use Oblivion more because this is outrageously good with both He1000se and LCD4. As Maxx and Middle Sky have pointed out, Oblivion soundstage is incredibly wide and enjoyable. My unit must be fully burned in because the midrange bloom is as beautiful as a budding flower in early Spring. What I hear is an amp that is very clear with great instruments separations. 

I even hook it up to my Axis Voicebox S speakers and I was able to watch the 2021 US Open Women Final between 2 very talented teenagers. Emma won and what a match.


----------



## UntilThen

Mazda 6av6 .... wonderful !   Both Dario and Mazda are dead quiet and sound lovely. Now this could be Oblivion sounding lovely regardless.  Power tubes are Siemens EL81, the original tubes supplied by Tomas.  That was 1 year 9 months ago.  

Next step is to get Tesla and Mullard EL81 as recommended by Maxx.


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 12, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I even hook it up to my Axis Voicebox S speakers and I was able to watch the 2021 US Open Women Final between 2 very talented teenagers. Emma won and what a match.


A bit off topic, but since you mention it.. Emma Raducanu is an amazing British teenager, just left school after  having taken her exams, straight into the US Open, won without losing a set, the first person ever to win a grand slam after having to go through the qualifiers!!

Not like me to go off topic .

Edit: She's already won her first £1,000,000.. enough to keep you in tubes for.. at least a week 🤣.


----------



## UntilThen

Yes I know. Somethings are special and Emma is special. Winning 2.5 millions at 18 is special.


----------



## UntilThen

One month anniversary for Odyssey tomorrow. Odyssey and Oblivion. I'm pretty much done as far as amplification goes. Both amps are very revealing. Oblivion soundstage is better but not by much. Both amps soundstage are outstanding. A common trait here is crispy treble. Very addictive. Odyssey is better in the mids and bass, No surprise there.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> One month anniversary for Odyssey tomorrow. Odyssey and Oblivion. I'm pretty much done as far as amplification goes. Both amps are very revealing. Oblivion soundstage is better but not by much. Both amps soundstage are outstanding. A common trait here is crispy treble. Very addictive. Odyssey is better in the mids and bass, No surprise there.


Very interesting indeed to see how the amps compare and your observations .

I don't know how Sonic has done it, I was expecting the "old skool" amp, notice the "I'm down with the kids" spelling, to be easily not as good as the "nu skool" Oblivion.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Very interesting indeed to see how the amps compare and your observations .
> 
> I don't know how Sonic has done it, I was expecting the "old skool" amp, notice the "I'm down with the kids" spelling, to be easily not as good as the "nu skool" Oblivion.



2 weeks after I had Odyssey, I message Tomas and asked, 'Are you sure Odyssey is strictly old school? You didn't slip in some new school did you?' He replied and said it's all old school with a smile.

This is the tone that I want. A tube amp with all the traits of an old school design but with fast transients and quick attacks. It has to be revealing at the top end with some bite to the tone. I want the midrange to be right there front and centre. I want the bass to be felt. It has to be tight and controlled but have enough bloom to keep it interesting. It needs to have a wide soundstage and 3 dimensionality at it's best. 

On the first day of Odyssey, I heard all that and my eyes opened in disbelief The gamble to pour all in on Odyssey has worked, thanks to Tomas who knows how to build the amp, to make it incredibly quiet with headphones and have massive power to drive speakers. The amp remain cool after 8 hours of operation. Tomas make sure of that as one of my requirement.  It's turned out better than I would have imagined.

I've reached nirvana. There's nothing more except the thought of how that 300b amp from Tomas would sound with a mixture of old and new school.  Secretly I hope he will craft it to suit both 300b and 2a3.


----------



## vcoheda

these ultrasonic studios amps are gorgeous.


----------



## UntilThen

vcoheda said:


> these ultrasonic studios amps are gorgeous.



They are and that's a bonus. For me it's always the sound.


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 12, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I've reached nirvana.


Great you can sit under the nearest Bodhi tree for 49 days and contemplate your good fortune .


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Yes I know. Somethings are special and Emma is special. Winning 2.5 millions at 18 is special.


Winning 2.5 million at _my _age would be special.  IMO, of course.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> A bit off topic, but since you mention it.. Emma Raducanu is an amazing British teenager, just left school after  having taken her exams, straight into the US Open, won without losing a set, the first person ever to win a grand slam after having to go through the qualifiers!!
> 
> Not like me to go off topic .
> 
> Edit: She's already won her first £1,000,000.. enough to keep you in tubes for.. at least a week 🤣.


Not if you buy from wege_high_tubes…


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Winning 2.5 million at _my _age would be special.  IMO, of course.


I thought that's what your pay was as a caddy .


----------



## leftside

Maxx134 said:


> Actually yes I did, on a nearly "perfect" & portable source for my amps.
> The iBasso 300max Dap,  which replace my dx220max, and both have dedicated balanced line out... 😊
> 
> 
> You can still find some if your patient & look hard enough.


What are your impressions? I have the DX220 that I used to use for portable use, but I no longer commute, and only use it out in the yard in the summer. And as I'm just out in the yard, I could certainly put up with something a little less portable/larger. As summer is ending here, this might be a little investment for next year.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> I thought that's what your pay was as a caddy .


That'd be pretty close to my lifetime earnings...assuming I'm still able to work for another 2.5 million years.  @UntilThen doesn't pinch pennies, he compresses them.


----------



## baronbeehive

leftside said:


> What are your impressions? I have the DX220 that I used to use for portable use, but I no longer commute, and only use it out in the yard in the summer. And as I'm just out in the yard, I could certainly put up with something a little less portable/larger. As summer is ending here, this might be a little investment for next year.


He will tell you. I think he had the DX220Max before that and loved it, he said it was the best out there. If you are thinking of getting it the supply is strictly limited so hurry!


----------



## leftside

baronbeehive said:


> He will tell you. I think he had the DX220Max before that and loved it, he said it was the best out there. If you are thinking of getting it the supply is strictly limited so hurry!


I'm sure they will sell it again next year if there is demand and the supply chain has been rectified. No rush on my side.


----------



## UntilThen

You have been busy ! A new place, a new setup. Same goodness and same caddy. Life's good.


----------



## jonathan c (Sep 12, 2021)

leftside said:


> …as I'm just out in the yard, I could certainly put up with something a little less portable/larger…


…speakers at 95+ dB facing out on the window-sills?…(college redux?…)


----------



## Maxx134 (Sep 12, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> My son bought the 300max with Empire Ears Odin. I have not consider them as source in my setup.


You would be surprised 😯



UntilThen said:


> . I need to refund his refund because he's an amazing seller and French man. Even enclosed a thank you note in the box. Such curtesy is rare these days.


The super slow (month+) mail system is common now between countries.



UntilThen said:


> Next step is to get Tesla and Mullard EL81 as recommended by Maxx


Get the Tesla first! Its cheap and looks beautiful and adds a "powerful" sonic trait to it's performance 👍



leftside said:


> What are your impressions? I have the DX220 that I used to use for portable use, but I no longer commute, and only use it out in the yard in the summer. And as I'm just out in the yard, I could certainly put up with something a little less portable/larger. As summer is ending here, this might be a little investment for next year.


Both the 220&300 "Max" versions are amoung the best Daps out there.

I preferred the 220max consistently over expensive A&K and LP R2R daps, because of the sheer raw liveliness & power of the sound, with top level resolve.

Then the new 300max came and supercede the 220max to claim top Dap sound.

These Daps are my choice of source, because you literally bypass & avoid all the problems that computer software, operating system, processor power, background processes,  drivers , cabling, interface to desktop dac, interference, noise, etc more issues are all gone.

With a top "DAP", I get sound level on par with a top desktop. That is a subjective opinion on my part, but that's my observations. Your observations may vary.
Plus I have both dedicated balanced output socket, and a normal 3.5 for single ended adapter if I wanted. That's how I used a Sony WM1Z Dap before I moved onto the iBasso.
Saves alot of space for me for the Oblivion amp 🙂.


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> That'd be pretty close to my lifetime earnings...assuming I'm still able to work for another 2.5 million years.  @UntilThen doesn't pinch pennies, he compresses them.


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 13, 2021)

Maxx134 said:


> These Daps are my choice of source, because you literally bypass & avoid all the problems that computer software, operating system, processor power, background processes,  drivers , cabling, interface to desktop dac, interference, noise, etc more issues are all gone.
> 
> With a top "DAP", I get sound level on par with a top desktop. That is a subjective opinion on my part, but that's my observations. Your observations may vary.
> Plus I have both dedicated balanced output socket, and a normal 3.5 for single ended adapter if I wanted. That's how I used a Sony WM1Z Dap before I moved onto the iBasso.
> Saves alot of space for me for the Oblivion amp 🙂.


Must be good to replace your Holo Spring DAC!

Hmmm, that's got me thinking, I could replace my Channel Islands Audio DAC which I preferred to an Eximus DP at the time, plus the Audiophillio USB transport and all that cabling, and, have a DAP into the bargain, although I don't really need a DAP since I left my last job when I had the DAP on all the time. Nevertheless it is worth thinking about. I will check it out .

I haven't looked yet but I assume the balanced outputs are to the amp?


----------



## OctavianH

baronbeehive said:


> A bit off topic, but since you mention it.. Emma Raducanu is an amazing British teenager, just left school after  having taken her exams, straight into the US Open, won without losing a set, the first person ever to win a grand slam after having to go through the qualifiers!!
> 
> Not like me to go off topic .
> 
> Edit: She's already won her first £1,000,000.. enough to keep you in tubes for.. at least a week 🤣.



Where head-fi can take you:
How Emma Raducanu's 'six-figure' Nike deal is set to sky-rocket to tens of millions... as she jokes she only wanted to win enough to replace her £109 Airpods after £1.8m US Open pay day


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> Where head-fi can take you:
> How Emma Raducanu's 'six-figure' Nike deal is set to sky-rocket to tens of millions... as she jokes she only wanted to win enough to replace her £109 Airpods after £1.8m US Open pay day


Haha, I love it. All life is here .


----------



## TheMiddleSky

Should contribute in picture because this amp is indeed gorgeous to look!







Have a little battle with WA5 today, will post later about the result.


----------



## UntilThen

It's a beautiful looking amp indeed. Glad there's someone else talking about Oblivion besides Max and me.  Where's the little coin feet? Should keep that under the pointy feet. Silver and black knobs, they both look good.

Oblivion and Wa5 are quite different from each other. I spend 2 weeks with a Wa5le with the best tubes - Brimar CV1988, Takatsuki 300b and EML mesh plate rectifiers. That was when I was comparing Glenn OTL amp with the Wa5le. I'll refrain from saying more. I'll wait for your feedback.


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey with these EL39 tubes is the most striking to my eyes and ears. Until EL156 came along...... I shall post what I hear different between EL39 and EL156 after a few days. EL156 is pretty much end game to me. I should have Odyssey custom build for EL156.  However wait... there is another supposedly better tube.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> However wait... there is another supposedly better tube.


Such a tease!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Such a tease!!!



I can't announce it because Bcowen will buy all of it.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> I can't announce it because Bcowen will buy all of it.


If GE made those - he already got an impressive stash for sure!
If not - he might not be interested anyhow...


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I can't announce it because Bcowen will buy all of it.


You need to get out more.  I already own all of them. You have to buy them from me.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> You need to get out more.  I already own all of them. You have to buy them from me.



If the EL156 bested the EL39 and the EL39 sound like Maria Callas, I'm in a better place. Buy from you is not what I need to do !


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> If the EL156 bested the EL39 and the EL39 sound like Maria Callas, I'm in a better place. Buy from you is not what I need to do !



For you only:  $995 (USD) matched NOS pair.  Well, sort of matched and kind of new, or close.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> For you only: $995 (USD) matched NOS pair. Well, sort of matched and kind of new, or close.



I've been offered a matched NOS pair in that same original Telefunken box for half that price ! However the EL39 is sounding very good with Brimar 6SL7 now. It's about 90% of the EL156 goodness. Don't ask me how I derive 90%. I just did.


----------



## Zachik

...but UT has a new secret tube that is even better, so why bother?


----------



## triod750

If one tube is to the left and the other to the right they are matched, right?
People often talk about matched tubes without explaining in what way they are matched, not least sellers but also buyers...


----------



## UntilThen

Means the readings are very close to each other and they are strong.


----------



## bcowen

triod750 said:


> If one tube is to the left and the other to the right they are matched, right?
> People often talk about matched tubes without explaining in what way they are matched, not least sellers but also buyers...


You're oversimplifying things.  One tube could be in the front and the other in the back.


----------



## UntilThen

I've found out from Tomas how to work out my tubes heater total so as not to go over the 6a limit. Rectifier is not included as it has it's own 5v 3a winding.

*EL156*
EL11 = 0.9 x 2 = 1.8a
6SL7 = 0.3a
EL156 = 1.9 x 2 = 3.8a
Total = 5.9a 
( If I remove the driver not in use, then it's even lower and better)

*KT88*
EL11 = 0.9 x 2 = 1.8a
6SL7 = 0.3a
KT88 = 1.8 x 2 = 3.6a
Total = 5.7a

*6550*
EL11 = 0.9 x 2 = 1.8a
6SL7 = 0.3a
6550 = 1.6 x 2 = 3.2a
Total = 5.3a

*EL34*
EL11 = 0.9 x 2 = 1.8a
6SL7 = 0.3a
EL34 = 1.5 x 2 = 3.0a
Total = 5.1a

*EL39*
EL11 = 0.9 x 2 = 1.8a
6SL7 = 0.3a
EL39 = 1.3 x 2 = 2.6a
Total = 4.7a

*EL12 spez*
EL11 = 0.9 x 2 = 1.8a
6SL7 = 0.3a
EL12 spez = 1.2 x 2 = 2.4a
Total = 4.5a

*KT150*
EL11 = 0.9 x 2 = 1.8a
6SL7 = 0.3a
KT150 = 2 x 2 = 4a
Total = 6.1a
(Best to remove the driver not used)


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> You're oversimplifying things.  One tube could be in the front and the other in the back.


And they must have the same number of pins, made in the same country, have the same name, for instance a Brimar has to match with another Brimar, *NOT* a Mullard, and matching print on the front of course.

That makes a lot of sense .


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> Means the readings are very close to each other and they are strong.


Sometimes, yes. But you also hear that they are made at the same factory the same year and that this means that they are matched. If the readings aren't that strong anymore but pretty close to each other they are matched too. The term matched needs to be qualified in order to be fully understood. Some sellers mean that if their 'meter' shows 'good' for both, yes, they are matched.

I received a NOS Sylvania VT-231 almost for free since the triodes were slightly out of balance. If I have had been given two of them, measuring the same, they would have been matched. I don't trust 'matched' but that seller I trust.


----------



## UntilThen

One day and one month out on ownership of Odyssey and I'm no longer hesitant to proclaim this my end game tube amp. On the average of 8 hours a day for 30 days, that's 240 hours of burn in and it's fully stabilized now.

It's turning the He1000se which is a baby Susvara, into a headphone of staggering proportions. Handles LCD4 with pure class. With the arrival of the Telefunken EL156 tubes, there is no doubt about this amp's versatility and is a compelling reason to go with a custom tube amp.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> One day and one month out on ownership of Odyssey and I'm no longer hesitant to proclaim this my end game tube amp. On the average of 8 hours a day for 30 days, that's 240 hours of burn in and it's fully stabilized now.
> 
> It's turning the He1000se which is a baby Susvara, into a headphone of staggering proportions. Handles LCD4 with pure class. With the arrival of the Telefunken EL156 tubes, there is no doubt about this amp's versatility and is a compelling reason to go with a custom tube amp.


nice pic


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> With the arrival of the Telefunken EL156 tubes, there is no doubt about this amp's versatility and is a compelling reason to go with a custom tube amp.


This is indeed very tempting for me to try.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> nice pic



Thanks Joe. Can't even fit Yggdrasil and Oblivion into the picture. It would have been complete then.  



OctavianH said:


> This is indeed very tempting for me to try.



Once you try these German EL156, there's no turning back.  

I have these 2 types of adapters. Both are very well made. Tubes fit with a nice click and are easy to insert and extract.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/164891869208?hash=item2664524018:g:rPsAAOSwRrpf2iN~&frcectupt=true

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/201357485488?hash=item2ee1d765b0:g:3b0AAOSwK6RZH7Ud&frcectupt=true


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Once you try these German EL156, there's no turning back.


I am thinking a lot about them, but before deciding can you compare them to some output tubes I have already tried? I know you compared them with EL39 a few posts ago but when thinking to KT88 or KT66 which are sounding closer to them? (I have no idea if these are close or not, just guessing).


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Once you try these German EL156, there's no turning back.


I am still waiting for the big reveal that you promised / teased a couple days ago, before trying EL156...


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I am thinking a lot about them, but before deciding can you compare them to some output tubes I have already tried? I know you compared them with EL39 a few posts ago but when thinking to KT88 or KT66 which are sounding closer to them? (I have no idea if these are close or not, just guessing).



Ok but give me a day or 2 and I'll compare it to the Psvane KT88 Tii and GEC KT66, both of which you have. I'll try to describe the differences. I'll even compare it to the various EL34 that I have.

You do need to check with Tomas if these could be used in your Eternity.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Ok but give me a day or 2 and I'll compare it to the Psvane KT88 Tii and GEC KT66, both of which you have. I'll try to describe the differences. I'll even compare it to the various EL34 that I have.
> 
> You do need to check with Tomas if these could be used in your Eternity.


Thank you. I'll do that. Please do not loose time with these but when it happens give me a hint. I'll try them most probably in a few months, since now I wait for my Thekk pair to arrive.


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> I am still waiting for the big reveal that you promised / teased a couple days ago, before trying EL156...



They will be reveal in due time but suffice to say that they are just as expensive as the EL156. Chameleon has gone back to the owner and upon my lead , he also bought the EL156 and could not stop listening.  





OctavianH said:


> Thank you. I'll do that. Please do not loose time with these but when it happens give me a hint. I'll try them most probably in a few months, since now I wait for my Thekk pair to arrive.



What is this Thekk ?


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> What is this Thekk ?


Thekk is my new pair of headphones. See here.


----------



## UntilThen

Ah the Kennertons...   I've had my time with Shane's Kennertons on the 300b amp.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> They will be reveal in due time but suffice to say that they are just as expensive as the EL156.


Can you compare the EL156 to said mystery tubes? Depending on the differences - I might or might not wait for the reveal before looking for ONE of them...


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Can you compare the EL156 to said mystery tubes? Depending on the differences - I might or might not wait for the reveal before looking for ONE of them...



Haha you're so persistent. I haven't bought the mystery tube. I'll PM you.


----------



## UntilThen

Hmmm @OctavianH , it's going to be an interesting few days. Just pop the Psvane KT88 Tii in and my eyes popped opened. After one month, Odyssey never fail to impress my ears whenever I roll in a different power tube and I haven't roll in the KT88 for at least 2 weeks.

I love this amp !


----------



## UntilThen

I haven't used the Wa22 for 3 months. I'll put it to work shortly. I like to know how that sound after a period of Destiny, Oblivion and Odyssey.


----------



## Maxx134 (Sep 14, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> Hmmm, that's got me thinking, I could replace my Channel Islands Audio DAC which I preferred to an Eximus DP at the time, plus the Audiophillio USB transport and all that cabling, and, have a DAP into the bargain, although I don't really need a DAP since I left my last job when I had the DAP on all the time. Nevertheless it is worth thinking about. I will check it out .


For me it wasn't so much the issue of the dac. Dacs (once at a top level) become more of a preference.

Once I realized I can also reach similar level with a top DaP, the realization of the elimination of other issues, (what your pointing out), of minimizing components in the chain was realized.

But my main issue & goal that I was glad to eliminate, was my windows laptop(!) issues, and music player software.

Here is some of the computer  issues, which I had accumulated from other posters:

"*The issues with a computer can vary.*
*Because Windows (by default) does not reserve enough processing power for Audio, it needs ASIO and WASAPI Exclusive Mode, which is better because Windows won't corrupt it like it sometimes does in ASIO, despite any efforts to prevent it. 
So Windows may occasionally switch detected dac as Default Sound & communications Device, in which case windows will resample PCM for sure, insidiously resampling the audio stream, having damaged sound of Windows resampling algorithms.

Even if you reassign the "Default Devices" to some other unused sound device, (unused/spare dac interface), Windows may occasionally switch back without warning to the dac you are trying to protect.

Whatever the OS Generation of Windows, there is always disk swaps during process, and windows services/applications, and background processes, which is how windows natively works. Even if you try fix into the OS with no Swap and big Ram, it somewhere needs it !*
_*There is embeded smps and noise, complex path of the signal, pipes process latency, CPU energy saving controls, USB power noise. SPDIF/Optical transmission/jitter issues"*_

So for me, I was satisfied to go the "Dap as source" route. I have all my music on mem cards, and the specific Dap I'm using has dedicated OS option.

So the storage, OS, music player, and dac all integrated in one, straight into a dedicated audio output for both amp or headphones is a great solution.
Lastly, there is the added "plus" of  mobility with a Dap, but the class of dap I chose is not really for portable. More classified as "transportable" (ibasso dx300Max).
 👍🙂


----------



## bcowen

Maxx134 said:


> For me it wasn't so much the issue of the dac. Dacs (once at a top level) become more of a preference.
> 
> Once I realized I can also reach similar level with a top DaP, the realization of the elimination of other issues, (what your pointing out), of minimizing components in the chain was realized.
> 
> ...


This helps reduce and/or eliminate a number of the issues mentioned in the latter part on a Windows PC.  There's a free trial version to see if it makes any difference in the setup at hand.  Made a nice improvement in mine, so I bought the Pro version.  Of course, eliminating Windows entirely is still the best route if/when feasible...

https://www.fidelizer-audio.com/


----------



## UntilThen

I'll have an Intel Nook running Roon Rock.  

Darko shows you how.


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 15, 2021)

Maxx134 said:


> For me it wasn't so much the issue of the dac. Dacs (once at a top level) become more of a preference.
> 
> Once I realized I can also reach similar level with a top DaP, the realization of the elimination of other issues, (what your pointing out), of minimizing components in the chain was realized.
> 
> But my main issue & goal that I was glad to eliminate, was my windows laptop(!) issues, and music player software.


Yeah, windows is a perennial problem, I have mine on WASAPI with Foobar in exclusive mode which supposedly grabs the audio away from WIndows OS but I have had major problems in the past, with drivers, skipping, issues with dropping out etc., to say nothing of the interference from the WIFI interface. I remember discussing this several years ago with a friend when we both had Apple Ipod classics at work. We said then why can't they allow the pure digital bitstream coming out of the device to be modified to use appropriately either by Apple themselves or license out to 3rd parties to utilize, but they didn't do this. If they had then we could have had high res music years ago and also used the output as DAC as you have found, without any sound deterioration.


Maxx134 said:


> *Whatever the OS Generation of Windows, there is always disk swaps during process, and windows services/applications, and background processes, which is how windows natively works. Even if you try fix into the OS with no Swap and big Ram, it somewhere needs it !*
> _*There is embeded smps and noise, complex path of the signal, pipes process latency, CPU energy saving controls, USB power noise. SPDIF/Optical transmission/jitter issues"*_
> 
> So for me, I was satisfied to go the "Dap as source" route. I have all my music on mem cards, and the specific Dap I'm using has dedicated OS option.
> ...


Yep I didn't realize this problem was so bad. I have a guitar interface which relies on low latency from the computer output and this could potentially be affected also by these issues. I have my music on external drive so this would be affected also, but at least each track is transferred into RAM before playing so I haven't noticed any issues there. Jitter is an issue as you say, and also USB noise which I've tried to minimize by cables with better power line insulation but it is still there.



Maxx134 said:


> So the storage, OS, music player, and dac all integrated in one, straight into a dedicated audio output for both amp or headphones is a great solution.
> Lastly, there is the added "plus" of  mobility with a Dap, but the class of dap I chose is not really for portable. More classified as "transportable" (ibasso dx300Max).
> 👍🙂


You're right.

Yes I noticed the DAP you mention could not be carried in your pocket without making a huge hole in it .

It would have been better if the corners were rounded off!


----------



## TheMiddleSky (Sep 16, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> It's a beautiful looking amp indeed. Glad there's someone else talking about Oblivion besides Max and me.  Where's the little coin feet? Should keep that under the pointy feet. Silver and black knobs, they both look good.
> 
> Oblivion and Wa5 are quite different from each other. I spend 2 weeks with a Wa5le with the best tubes - Brimar CV1988, Takatsuki 300b and EML mesh plate rectifiers. That was when I was comparing Glenn OTL amp with the Wa5le. I'll refrain from saying more. I'll wait for your feedback.







Agree, both amp go into different direction.

WA5 has big imaging, slight mid centric character with lush and sweetness of 300B that simply melted everyone's heart. Indeed it come with the "price", lack of speed, real impact, and overal more coloured sound compare to Oblivion. Preference playing a big role here. Personally if I have to own only one set up, I'd avoid strong coloration set up, as would bored me overtime compare to something closer to reference character.

Oblivion is no slouch in term of wide imaging, even though lack (only a little though) in term of height staging when side by side with WA5. Oblivion definitely punch harder, with overall more linear response especially in midrange. Some coloration in WA5 could create a little "peak" that cause a little sibilance when played some Chinese songs, however this not happened with Oblivion. Oblivion is simply more neutral, more reference in this comparison, with "enough" harmonic distortion to make instrument notes remain full body and far from clinical.

However when compared to SS amp like Xiaudio Formula S, Oblivion clearly the sweeter, smoother, and has fuller sound with more organic feeling. I love Formula S a lot (to pair with any Abyss headphones or planar in general), but for Abyss Diana Phi (also V2), Hifiman HE1000SE, and Susvara their synergy with Oblivion is better in my book. The result may vary depend on the subjective preference/set up to each person of course.


----------



## UntilThen

We're hearing the same thing @TheMiddleSky. Perhaps it's the common Singapore denominator.  I'm going to pound the neighbourhood now with my Great Dane beside me. I'll comment more when I come back.

Of the 3 headphones you mentioned, I've only had time on He1000se with Oblivion and what a good pairing that is. Just one question. Did you feel that Susvara is driven alright with Oblivion? Did it have enough juice to drive it up Mount Olympus?


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> However when compared to SS amp like Xiaudio Formula S, Oblivion clearly the sweeter, smoother, and has fuller sound with more organic feeling.



Every comparison needs a reference and that's a good reference point. I had the same conclusion when comparing Auralic Taurus Mk2 with Oblivion. I was often asked if Oblivion sounded like a solid state or tube amp. 

When compared to a neutral sounding solid state, Oblivion is definitely a tube tone sounding amp. When comparing Oblivion with Odyssey or Destiny, then Oblivion sounded lighter in tone and more airy. I use the word 'sweeter' too to describe Oblivion with He1000se combination. There's a clarity to the treble region with enough bite to make it sweet but not sibilant. On Odyssey, it's even more pronounced. Odyssey is sweeter, smoother with a fuller sound than Oblivion.  

I've also mention before that Oblivion soundstage is wider but Odyssey has better depth and height in soundstage. Odyssey's width is not that far behind. 

Woo Audio Wa5 has a great lush tube tone even with Takatsuki 300b tubes. Destiny is better with wider soundstage and greater force. McChanson 300b and KT150 amps sound powerful and yet relaxed. If not for Odyssey arrival I'd still be all over it but Odyssey's tone is sweeter and addictive.


----------



## TheMiddleSky (Sep 16, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> We're hearing the same thing @TheMiddleSky. Perhaps it's the common Singapore denominator.  I'm going to pound the neighbourhood now with my *Great Dane* beside me. I'll comment more when I come back.
> 
> Of the 3 headphones you mentioned, I've only had time on He1000se with Oblivion and what a good pairing that is. Just one question. Did you feel that Susvara is driven alright with Oblivion? Did it have enough juice to drive it up Mount Olympus?


That one hella beautiful dog you have there!

Yes, plenty power for Susvara, organic midrange, wide imaging, and bass still slam hard (of course in Susvara context). Formula S in comparison sound lack of meat and soundstage.

I think my most favourite set up for Susvara is Chord dave with WA33. However, I listened to them around a year ago, impossible to make comparison now.

Now i'm wondering how Infinity would against 300B amp. Curious curious.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> That one hella beautiful dog you have there!



I'm going to reply to your post in 2 parts because it's important. First of all, I agree wholeheartedly that I have one hella beautiful furry member of the family. He's the family pet and also the sultan of swing. Play that Dire Straits song and his tail will wag.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> I'm going to reply to your post in 2 parts because it's important. First of all, I agree wholeheartedly that I have one hella beautiful furry member of the family. He's the family pet and also the sultan of swing. Play that Dire Straits song and his tail will wag.


👍😄….does he have a sibling tweeter?…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> 👍😄….does he have a sibling tweeter?…



Yup he does have an altered ego looking all innocent when going for car rides.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> Yes, plenty power for Susvara, organic midrange, wide imaging, and bass still slam hard (of course in Susvara context). Formula S in comparison sound lack of meat and soundstage.
> 
> I think my most favourite set up for Susvara is Chord dave with WA33. However, I listened to them around a year ago, impossible to make comparison now.
> 
> Now i'm wondering how Infinity would against 300B amp. Curious curious.



This is good news for me. *When I had Odyssey built, I have* *one important criteria*. It must have enough power to drive Susvara well. It must drive Susvara easily, not just well. If you're telling me that Oblivion have plenty of power for Susvara, then I am resting easy because Odyssey is 5 times more powerful than Oblivion at 60 ohms which is Susvara impedance.

Oblivion is 2.3 watts into 8 ohms for speakers. My unit have speaker outputs and can drive speakers if you don't need to go too loud. Of course I have speaker amps for lounge filling duties.

I'm going to be presumptuous here because I heard Wa33 driving Susvara only once at the Sydney HiFi show at the Addicted To Audio booth. That was in 2017 and Susvara and Wa33 were still new to the scene. Impressed I was. I remember that the stage is 5D staggeringly deep, wide and high and the bass digs ungodly deep. Arthur from A2A was looking at me with a smile on his face as he watch my facial expression. However I can tell you this. Odyssey driving He1000se here is even more impressive. After one month I still cannot believe what I am hearing. Tomas has created an incredible sounding SET amp in Odyssey and I'm using Telefunken EL156 tubes in it now. I can tell you now that I will take Odyssey over Wa33 any day anytime. Odyssey isn't cheap but worth every penny imho of course..... and it's cheaper than Wa33.  I can't wait to try Susvara on Odyssey.

If I were to get Tomas to build me a 300b amp, it wouldn't be the Infinity but it will be one similar to Odyssey. Using similar but a bigger silver chassis like he said.  Using Sowter or similar output transformers, boutique caps (Dueland, Clairty, Jupiters, Mundorfs whatever you fancy), Yamamoto sockets AND going old school..... but wait ...Tomas has some magic up his sleeves. He will inject new school in the drivers stage to give it the clarity, fast transients and foot tapping rhythms that we both love. I'm giving out some of his secrets but I'm excited just hearing from him what he will do with a 300b amp. Besides that of course, it would be nice to be able to run 2a3 andd 45 tubes via switches and he knows how to do it.

This is longer than I intended to post at 4:35 am in the morning on a Friday. It's a good start to the weekend.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> This is good news for me. *When I had Odyssey built, I have* *one important criteria*. It must have enough power to drive Susvara well. It must drive Susvara easily, not just well. If you're telling me that Oblivion have plenty of power for Susvara, then I am resting easy because Odyssey is 5 times more powerful than Oblivion at 60 ohms which is Susvara impedance.
> 
> Oblivion is 2.3 watts into 8 ohms for speakers. My unit have speaker outputs and can drive speakers if you don't need to go too loud. Of course I have speaker amps for lounge filling duties.
> 
> ...


Hey.. no work in the morning so what the heck!

Wow.. 300B and nu skool driver stage, that is what we have been waiting for .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Hey.. no work in the morning so what the heck!
> 
> Wow.. 300B and nu skool driver stage, that is what we have been waiting for .



What do you mean no work. At least a few hours for a hard working guy like me.

Yup 300b with oo and nu skool.  You get fast transients and absolute clarity with lush mids and gut filling bass. Put in a WE 300b tube and it will run like Usain Bolt but with a Beyonce figure.


----------



## leftside

As a 300B amp owner, I think it's more the design of the amp than the tubes used that primarily affect the sound. And as a 300B amp owner I'd love to see someone else produce a 300B amp! I hope it happens. Glenn only ever made 12. His primary goal was to produce the most neutral sounding amp, and I think he excelled in this goal. the 300B + C3g configuration simply assisted with this goal. I'm sure you could also make a lush sounding 300B amp though, and I bet it would also sound amazing. Go for it!


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 16, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> What do you mean no work. At least a few hours for a hard working guy like me.
> 
> Yup 300b with oo and nu skool.  You get fast transients and absolute clarity with lush mids and gut filling bass. Put in a WE 300b tube and it will run like Usain Bolt but with a Beyonce figure.


For some reason I thought it was saturday tomorrow!

Too much excitement on the brain lol.


----------



## baronbeehive

leftside said:


> As a 300B amp owner, I think it's more the design of the amp than the tubes used that primarily affect the sound. And as a 300B amp owner I'd love to see someone else produce a 300B amp! I hope it happens. Glenn only ever made 12. His primary goal was to produce the most neutral sounding amp, and I think he excelled in this goal. the 300B + C3g configuration simply assisted with this goal. I'm sure you could also make a lush sounding 300B amp though, and I bet it would also sound amazing. Go for it!


I don't know, but this 300B could be lush, *and* very fast with that new driver stage.

I agree it is all in the design.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> As a 300B amp owner, I think it's more the design of the amp than the tubes used that primarily affect the sound. And as a 300B amp owner I'd love to see someone else produce a 300B amp! I hope it happens. Glenn only ever made 12. His primary goal was to produce the most neutral sounding amp, and I think he excelled in this goal. the 300B + C3g configuration simply assisted with this goal. I'm sure you could also make a lush sounding 300B amp though, and I bet it would also sound amazing. Go for it!



I don't think you can do a neutral sounding 300b amp. There will be a slight tube tone even in the most neutral sounding 300b amp. I'm not particularly fond of overly lush amps too. For this reason I wasn't that fond of the Woo Audio WA5. Most associate old school with an overly lush tube amp but Odyssey isn't that. Tube tone is just right to my ear without tipping over the scale into the too lush basket.

There is a driver tube I had in mind if I were to go with a 300b amp with Tomas. It's the D3A from Siemens and it's even better than the c3g and in that same mold.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I don't know, but this 300B could be lush, *and* very fast with that new driver stage.



Stop tempting me any further lol. After 2 amps with Tomas, I know his sound signature. Fast transients, tight controlled bass and not overly lush. This is my preference and I hear some of that in the Glenn OTL amp which I had a comparison with against the WA5le.


----------



## UntilThen

It's Friday and after work. I need something fast and fleet footed. Oblivion to the rescue. Outrageously engaging with crystal clear tone and oh so wide soundstage. I do nothing but listen to Dire Straits album after album. With He1000se and LCD4. Goosebumps and chilling experience. While doing that I also went nuts buying 3 sets of EL81 based on Maxx recommendations. Tesla, Mullard EL81 and Mazda 6DR6.

Dario Miniwatt 6av6 (made by Mullard according to Olivier the Frenchman who was so pleased when I pay him after the refund) in the drivers seat with Siemens EL81.


----------



## fokta

WOW... just that... I liked what I hear....


----------



## UntilThen

fokta said:


> WOW... just that... I liked what I hear....



Glad you like it. When I was given Oblivion to review, I had Verite Open and HD800. Obviously I was shell shocked to hear the very wide soundstage and airiness, especially with HD800. Surprisingly I did like HD800 with Oblivion but I like He1000se and LCD4 more with it now.


----------



## fokta

UntilThen said:


> Glad you like it. When I was given Oblivion to review, I had Verite Open and HD800. Obviously I was shell shocked to hear the very wide soundstage and airiness, especially with HD800. Surprisingly I did like HD800 with Oblivion but I like He1000se and LCD4 more with it now.


Well, it was doubt on the beginning, since looking on the spec on the paper, was quite concerning, I mean VO was not difficult to drive... but every doubt was vaporize in the air, when the music play...

not even 9 o'clock in volume pot, and low gain, VO already perfect loud with excellent dynamic sounding. love the vocal, especially the female vocal, detail and sound natural in my ear... Love it


----------



## UntilThen

fokta said:


> Well, it was doubt on the beginning, since looking on the spec on the paper, was quite concerning, I mean VO was not difficult to drive... but every doubt was vaporize in the air, when the music play...
> 
> not even 9 o'clock in volume pot, and low gain, VO already perfect loud with excellent dynamic sounding. love the vocal, especially the female vocal, detail and sound natural in my ear... Love it



It does feel powerful for most headphones. Prior to Oblivion, I had GOTL and Studio Six and Wa22 on the rack. Oblivion is easily more powerful than any of them. It's also clearer / cleaner and wider soundstage than any of them. 

I am pretty much hooked on female vocals with Odyssey and Oblivion with my headphones.


----------



## Galapac

@UntilThen  Given that you have 2 UltraSonic Studio amps now...will you ever part with the Oblivion or are they that much sonically different that you would keep both now given the time you have had with the Odyssey?


----------



## UntilThen

Galapac said:


> @UntilThen  Given that you have 2 UltraSonic Studio amps now...will you ever part with the Oblivion or are they that much sonically different that you would keep both now given the time you have had with the Odyssey?



I like getting asked such questions at 5am in the morning. Just woke up and my mind's still untainted and unbiased.  

Short answer is I won't give up Oblivion. On first listen of Odyssey, I detected Tomas's sound signature in Oblivion immediately - fast transients, clarity, details and soundstage. There are differences in these 2 amps though to make them unique and very appealing.

Oblivion
. soundstage - there are no peers. I've not heard a headphone amp with such spread and I've heard many amps both solid state and tube amps. The width is not detriment to the enjoyment of the song you're listening to. The spread out of instruments and singer gives a lovely pin point location of where they are coming from. 
. it's cleaner, quieter and airier. Just a touch though more than Odyssey but at this level, just a touch makes a world of difference.
. on some passages of songs, I hear the impact and intensity of a solid state but wrap by a lovely bubble of tube tone.
. it's an amp I can leave it power on for very long and not worry about burning up precious NOS tubes.
. Bass surprise me. I don't talk about it much but when it hits I go wow. Can it really do that?  

Odyssey
. tube tone is a killer. The best I've heard in any tube amps. A month out of having Odyssey, I'm still as attracted to the tone as a bee and his honey. It's an unholy obsession. I have to tear myself away from the music room to get some work done in the garden or to walk the Great Dane around the neighbourhood.
. NOS tubes rewards Odyssey. It just gets better with these penny sucking tubes. I'm currently using Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base and I'm melting with ecstasy. 
. power and impact. The logarithmic volume potentiometer builds the volume up gradually with precision. When the dial is at 12 o'clock, you're not at half of full power yet. Very interesting. Logarithmic volume control is how the human ears hears it and not the linear method.
. Killer tone what can I say. I'm back repeating myself again.  

So yup Oblivion will stay but Odyssey gets used most of the time - remember killer tone. Pure addiction !    
​


----------



## UntilThen

I've to get rid of some of my gear now because I can see they will be totally neglected. Sell off the Wa22, Elekit TU8200 and possibly Destiny.... this last one I have to consider carefully. There are things it does very well.

I've to fast track the purchase of Abyss 1266 Phi TC because @paramesh can get it for me at $100. He told me that the Abyss is worth everyone of those hundred dollars. As someone who buys my GOTL and still have it... well I have to trust him.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm tripping now. It's as beautiful as it sound. That's my blue LCD5.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I'm tripping now. It's as beautiful as it sound. That's my blue LCD5.


Nice low light for that 5am start .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Nice low light for that 5am start .



Its no longer 5am but 7:42am. The Dane and I are just about to finish our walk.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Its no longer 5am but 7:42am. The Dane and I are just about to finish our walk.


Beautiful neighborhood!


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Beautiful neighborhood!


Thanks. It’s a leafy area and it’s the start of Spring now. Best time of the year.


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> There goes the neighborhood.  (what the other residents said when @UntilThen moved in)


FTFY.


----------



## UntilThen

They got used to me by now. It's been more than 20 years.  What might shocked them is when I walk down the street wearing Abyss TC ..... when I do get it eventually !


----------



## Maxx134 (Sep 17, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I've also mention before that Oblivion soundstage is wider but Odyssey has better depth and height in soundstage. Odyssey's width is not that far behind.


Please try with Tesla EL81 and let us know. 😉



UntilThen said:


> it's an amp I can leave it power on for very long and not worry about burning up precious NOS tubes.


On the Oblivion, using the 6dr6 type doesn't even get as hot or bright as the EL81 tubes. 👍

These are the "subjective" impressions I was left with after trying these output tubes on the Oblivion:

Mazda 6DR6 = delicate & expansive
Tesla = dymamic & lively 
Mullard = lively & a bit fuller
Siemens= neutral, clean & expansive

Notice these character/signature impressions were not of tonality, and so there was no particular order of preference, as they all remained at same clarity and realism, so there was  only left an impression of slight character change.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Please try with Tesla EL81 and let us know. 😉
> 
> 
> On the Oblivion, using the 6dr6 type doesn't even get as hot or bright as the EL81 tubes. 👍
> ...



When you live with a tube amp long enough, you will notice even if the change is slight.


----------



## UntilThen

It's the weekend and I'm going to spend some time with my power tubes. 

Telefunken EL12 spez
La Radiotechnique EL39
Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 double 'O' getters xf2
Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base Edinhoven NL - 1956 - SY1 56G / H
RFT EL34
GEC KT66
Telefunken EL156
Radiotron 807
Psvane KT88 Tii

because I have to let @OctavianH know if the EL156 is worth the penny over these other tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Sat night live with Psvane KT88 Tii. After a day of Miniwatt EL34 metal base, I didn't think the Psvane has what it takes to compete with the Miniwatt but it sure did. Very impressed with the crystalline neutral sweetness compared to the EL34 more natural romantic tone. Musical notes are properly chiselled out.


----------



## vcoheda

great pic in the low light. you should send that to the amp manufacturer for their web site.


----------



## UntilThen

It was a 5am shot. I took 3 pictures in succession and was surprised when the result came out.


----------



## UntilThen

2am and listening to Billy Gibbons 'Perfectamundo' almost woke up the whole neighbourhood. This is still with those Psvane KT88 Tii gold nuggets. Then I switch to Eva Cassidy 'Bridge Over Troubled Waters' and I knew straight away that this is the solution to the world's problems we have today.. Eva have no idea the power of her emotion laden voice. It's surreal to feel the hairs of your hands stand at 2:34am. When 'Over the Rainbow' finished, I did a standing ovation. 

So all in all, the KT88 did supremely well.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

UntilThen said:


> This is good news for me. *When I had Odyssey built, I have* *one important criteria*. It must have enough power to drive Susvara well. It must drive Susvara easily, not just well. If you're telling me that Oblivion have plenty of power for Susvara, then I am resting easy because Odyssey is 5 times more powerful than Oblivion at 60 ohms which is Susvara impedance.
> 
> Oblivion is 2.3 watts into 8 ohms for speakers. My unit have speaker outputs and can drive speakers if you don't need to go too loud. Of course I have speaker amps for lounge filling duties.
> 
> ...



When we tried Susvara it use the high gain of Oblivion, so I guess would be more than 2.3 watts at 8 ohm (should be 3 times more?).

Such informative info about Tomas 300B, seems interesting!


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> When we tried Susvara it use the high gain of Oblivion, so I guess would be more than 2.3 watts at 8 ohm (should be 3 times more?).
> 
> Such informative info about Tomas 300B, seems interesting!



I don't know but I do know that Odyssey will drive Susvara very well., according to the power output published specs that Tomas gave to me.

The 300b amp Tomas talks about is something even I get excited about. At this stage, I should be content already because Odyssey is just incredible. I don't even know if a 300b amp will better it. It's just different flavours. I have a McChanson 300b amp here using Genalex 300b tubes. However using Sowter output transformers is the real deal here. I really believe that all the great sonics that I hear from all the various lovely NOS power tubes and lovely drivers are attributed to the Sowter irons. Take that out of the equation and it won't be the same anymore. Of course there's Tomas design and tuning. This is very important because the tone is just right for me.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> 2am and listening to Billy Gibbons 'Perfectamundo' almost woke up the whole neighbourhood. This is still with those Psvane KT88 Tii gold nuggets. Then I switch to Eva Cassidy 'Bridge Over Troubled Waters' and I knew straight away that this is the solution to the world's problems we have today.. Eva have no idea the power of her emotion laden voice. It's surreal to feel the hairs of your hands stand at 2:34am. When 'Over the Rainbow' finished, I did a standing ovation.
> 
> So all in all, the KT88 did supremely well.


Do you prefer the PSvane KT88 to Genalex Gold Lion?


----------



## UntilThen

After one day each of EL34 and KT88, I roll in EL156. Viola I see the light.   It's extremely clear to me where the difference is.

EL34 - There's a marked emphasis in the upper mid bass. Apart from that it's quite a slim sound but defined, smooth and still with impact. On the metal base, this slight warm and lush is very enjoyable.

KT88 - Going from EL34 to KT88 is a distinct change. KT88 is more transparent, more neutral. Better treble extension, tight taut bass. A very nice change from EL34. Slam and punch it can do with no problem.

KT66 - just going to throw this in here because I had a listen too. This is a fuller body tone compared to EL34, with better low bass. It is smooth with a top notch midrange.

EL156 - When this goes in this morning, it's a jaw dropping moment again. Crispy treble and deep deep bass. Soundstage widens and the whole song just got bigger. It seems to pick the best traits of KT88 high end, KT66 midrange and EL39 low ends. Except it does it better than any of them. Jaw dropping moments came in the following songs:-

1. 1812 overture by Tchaikovsky - when the cannons shot out, it's an eyeball opening wide moment. Turn up the volume a bit more and the cannon goes right through your chest.

2. Comfortably Numb by Pink Floyd - I've not heard this song done so well. The orchestra accompanying the band and David Gilmour and Roger Waters singing is a 7am wake up call. By the time the song ends, I'm comfortably numb. Totally.

3. Nothing Else Matters by Metallica - Starting with the guitar intro to when the kick drums comes in, it's really nothing else matters ! Sink in the abyss created by the Telefunken EL156. Never cared for what they do. Never cared for what they know. But I know !!!

4. You and your friend by Dire Straits - I think of Bcowen and what a nice person he is. I love this song and EL156 makes it real. Goosebumps moments that's for sure. Mark Knopfler is a genius with a little help from EL156. So full, so much presence and the magical guitar works with Mark's drawl. I didn't want the song to end....

5. All Good Things by Sissel - The rendition of this song and Sissel's voice is surreal. All good things like this must not end. This song must be heard with EL156 in Odyssey through He1000se. A Norwegian soprano at her best.

6. Stairway to Heaven by Led Zeppelin - the song regarded as the greatest and most iconic rock song of all time. It's played on a Fender Electric XII 12 string. You have to hear this on EL156 ! Again wait for the drums to kick in and for the tempo to pick up. That's when you depart earth and begin the ascend to heaven. Parachutes not provided. There's no coming back.

7. 101 Eastbound by Fourplay - What a way to finish off. One of Fourplay's most well known song. Listen to the genius of  Bob James on keyboards, Lee Ritenour on guitars, Nathan East on bass and Harvey Mason on drums.

And as they announced in Olympics host country selection... the winner is .... EL156 !!!

I'm going to leave 3 more songs that are good test tracks for:-
High frequencies - Bernard's Song by Veronique Sanson.
Midrange - Obama Dombrance.
Bass - Flight of the cosmic hippo.

Welcome to Sunday 19th September 2021. There will never be another day like it again.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Do you prefer the PSvane KT88 to Genalex Gold Lion?



This will have to wait until until then's shower and breakfast is over. Picking up the differences between these 2 KT88 is going to be interesting. Unfortunately I didn't bring the Shuguang KT88-Z black treasures back from Canberra.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> And as they announced in Olympics host country selection... the winner is .... EL156 !!!


Which drivers have you used with the EL156 tubes?


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> I don't know but I do know that Odyssey will drive Susvara very well., according to the power output published specs that Tomas gave to me.
> 
> The 300b amp Tomas talks about is something even I get excited about. At this stage, I should be content already because Odyssey is just incredible. I don't even know if a 300b amp will better it. It's just different flavours. I have a McChanson 300b amp here using Genalex 300b tubes. However using Sowter output transformers is the real deal here. I really believe that all the great sonics that I hear from all the various lovely NOS power tubes and lovely drivers are attributed to the Sowter irons. Take that out of the equation and it won't be the same anymore. Of course there's Tomas design and tuning. This is very important because the tone is just right for me.


Great tube amps are forged in great iron. My Primavera is a treat. Although I do zero rolling, never again in my life! Haha.


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Which drivers have you used with the EL156 tubes?



I use both EL11 or Brimar 6SL7. Both are outstanding with EL156 . Supreme clarity and details.


----------



## UntilThen (Sep 18, 2021)

paradoxper said:


> Great tube amps are forged in great iron. My Primavera is a treat. Although I do zero rolling, never again in my life! Haha.



This is interesting that Trafomatic Audio has not pass through my orbit before. Hailing from Serbia, the same as the Auris Nirvana. That Primavera is 9w @50ohms. Got to be a treat for Susvara or Abyss. That is a 30kgs beast. I imagine you work out in the gym.

You do know that great tube amps are forged in great iron.  To a lesser extent, great tube amps are also forged in great tubes. 

My tube rolling will be limited in Odyssey because I already have the tubes and I know which to use if I want to dial in a certain flavour.


----------



## UntilThen

The custom tube amp experience with the builder is priceless. At the higher end, it will leave you breathless. Like playing Russian roulette. You don't know the end result until it shows up at your door. I wouldn't miss it for the world though. The journey with Odyssey will be in my memory always. More than any other builder, Tomas has been exceptionally communicative and it's almost a daily update.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> After one day each of EL34 and KT88, I roll in EL156. Viola I see the light.   It's extremely clear to me where the difference is.
> 
> EL34 - There's a marked emphasis in the upper mid bass. Apart from that it's quite a slim sound but defined, smooth and still with impact. On the metal base, this slight warm and lush is very enjoyable.
> 
> ...


Excellent post, thank you for that. I recognize every type I already tried from your description and I am able to foresee how EL156 sounds. I'll have to try these.


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 19, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> And as they announced in Olympics host country selection... the winner is .... EL156 !!!
> 
> I'm going to leave 3 more songs that are good test tracks for:-
> *High frequencies* - Bernard's Song by Veronique Sanson.
> ...


Thanks for those recommendations, looking forward to checking them out. Always good to hear what others recommendations are, and good to check out your audio properties too!

Sadly your tube recommendations are irrelevant to me as I don't use most of them in my amps but interesting nevertheless.

Looks like you've been burning the candle from both ends to give us this info .

Edit: FTFY 👍😉.


----------



## UntilThen

Life returns to normal in Brookvale. The Psvane KT88 will be the power tubes for daily routine like watching Michael Schumacher on Netflix. I'll see how long I can last without changing tubes.  Odyssey will be my daily amp and I'll use LCD4 more. Tomorrow LCD5 will debut.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> 2am and listening to Billy Gibbons 'Perfectamundo' almost woke up the whole neighbourhood. This is still with those Psvane KT88 Tii gold nuggets. Then I switch to Eva Cassidy 'Bridge Over Troubled Waters' and I knew straight away that this is the solution to the world's problems we have today.. Eva have no idea the power of her emotion laden voice. It's surreal to feel the hairs of your hands stand at 2:34am. When 'Over the Rainbow' finished, I did a standing ovation.
> 
> So all in all, the KT88 did supremely well.


Perfectamundo is a fun album


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Perfectamundo is a fun album



Can't believe I wrote all that in one weekend. Yeah Perfectamundo. Billy's on steroids.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Can't believe I wrote all that in one weekend. Yeah Perfectamundo. Billy's on steroids.


Ha, yeah he is.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Ha, yeah he is.



Listening to that album with LCD4 amplified by Odyssey is insane ! The KT88s making sure my internal organs are massaged. I like this one.


----------



## whirlwind

It is a very bassy album for sure.
You would probably like his new album also..Got to love Billy!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Can't believe I wrote all that in one weekend. Yeah Perfectamundo. Billy's on steroids.


I love Billy Gibbons!  Dude can wail.

Here's another favorite. Stupid me had never heard of him until I stumbled across it on Tidal, but now part of my regular listening rotation.


----------



## xfusion

I would like to share my first impression with everyone who is reading this thread or anyone who is contemplating to purchase the Oblivion. I know the Oblivion is not the amplifier that you can buy or try from a nearby store or maybe even in a Canjam meeting. But to summarize for what I am about to write is that the Oblivion is as high quality as any Top Of The Line amplifiers, regardless Solid State or Tube amplifiers, but with many qualities unlike any other too.

In one word: The Soundstage! Doesn't matter how many times you have read it in this forum about how wide the Soundstage that is coming out from the Oblivion, you have to listen it to yourself to get the true idea of the Oblivion wide soundstage! I had a great expectation when I was about to listen to the Oblivion, but was blown away by the soundstage! The next thing that impressed me the most is the precise and accurate imaging it renders. It has great layering but every notes strikes independently. Perhaps it is due to the ability of the Oblivion punches hard and accurately.

Tonally, you might not get the usual tube lushness and euphonic tone from this amplifier, but the Oblivion does add a layer of smoothness on top and a touch of sweetness in the midrange that delivers a liquid tonality that makes the sound more natural and life like. I tried the Oblivion with Chord Qutest, Chord Hugo, Chord TT2 and Denafrips DAC from various sources. I tried them with Audeze LCD 4z, Abyss Diana Phi and Abyss Diana V2. What I found is, the Oblivion has abundant power to spare to drive those headphones. Then, with good DAC, the Oblivion improves the sound rather significantly in many different ways. With Top of The Line, super high resolutions and detail monster such as Chord TT2, the Oblivion does lose a tiny tiny bit of details, but retains many other Chord TT2 strengths, but in return it adds plenty other Oblivion traits such as wider soundstage, punch, and fluidity to the already excellent tonal from the Chord TT2. It shows how transparent and powerful the Oblivion is.

I personally think this amplifier showcases the builder ability, Tomas aka @SonicTrance , to be expertly build a unique amplifier that combine the best of both worlds, tube and solid state, in this hybrid amplifier like no other. When I listened to this amplifier, this was being compared directly through critical and heavy A B listening sessions with many other highly regarded amplifiers and much much more expensive amplifiers which I would not mention in here because the Oblivion blew them away good that makes the Oblivion worth every cents you spent on it.

For my conclusion, that listening session exceeded all my expectations! It left me awed with deep and striking impression so much so I decided to steal it from my friend @TheMiddleSky and keep it for myself.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

xfusion said:


> I would like to share my first impression with everyone who is reading this thread or anyone who is contemplating to purchase the Oblivion. I know the Oblivion is not the amplifier that you can buy or try from a nearby store or maybe even in a Canjam meeting. But to summarize for what I am about to write is that the Oblivion is as high quality as any Top Of The Line amplifiers, regardless Solid State or Tube amplifiers, but with many qualities unlike any other too.
> 
> In one word: The Soundstage! Doesn't matter how many times you have read it in this forum about how wide the Soundstage that is coming out from the Oblivion, you have to listen it to yourself to get the true idea of the Oblivion wide soundstage! I had a great expectation when I was about to listen to the Oblivion, but was blown away by the soundstage! The next thing that impressed me the most is the precise and accurate imaging it renders. It has great layering but every notes strikes independently. Perhaps it is due to the ability of the Oblivion punches hard and accurately.
> 
> ...



Wow, you clearly write sound impression way better than me about this amp.

If only I recorded our friend's face when he compared Oblivion to his more expensive SS amp haha!


----------



## UntilThen

Well done @xfusion. It was nice interacting with both you and @TheMiddleSky in the very short time recently. We clearly have a common interest in head-fi. An amp that still intrigued and impressed me after nearly 2 years have to be something especially given how quickly I change my amps.  

Odyssey and Oblivion the double Os in my life. With more new top end headphones appearing, I'm ready.  A special thanks to Tomas for building these very special amps.


----------



## Galapac

@UntilThen - New headphones calling you…Odyssey has a possible new playmate?


----------



## UntilThen

Galapac said:


> New headphones calling you…Odyssey has a possible new playmate?



I know. Lots of headphones and Odyssey is made for it. That LCD5 is 16 ohms and Odyssey can drive anything from 8 ohms up.   Really have to cut Bcowen's salary now to afford all these goodies.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I know. Lots of headphones and Odyssey is made for it. That LCD5 is 16 ohms and Odyssey can drive anything from 8 ohms up.   Really have to cut Bcowen's salary now to afford all these goodies.


You wouldn't get much for a measly $2.50 .


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I know. Lots of headphones and Odyssey is made for it.


How can you get better than HiFiMan 1000SE? You've had it now for around a year I believe so it must be good!


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 21, 2021)

Looks like bcowen was right about that force field all along: 👍.


----------



## OctavianH (Sep 21, 2021)

Well, it's good that Audeze started to think about weight. 420g is decent, compared to previous models. And if one big boy starts this, others will follow. 

Later edit:
They are glueing pads also on LCD-5? Why? Meze sells Empyrean pads with 150 EUR/pair and for the new Elite pads are 200 EUR/pair even if they seem identical as build complexity or cost. Soon we'll have threads about pads rolling and nobody will care about tubes. LOL


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey and Oblivion the double Os in my life. With more new top end headphones appearing, I'm ready.  A special thanks to Tomas for building these very special amps.


I must admit to being slightly sceptical about the Odyssey when I first heard about it being an old school design, but now after UT's comments I have to hand it to Sonic for carrying it off, and to the old school pioneers. Turns out they were on to a good thing all those years ago after all. So long as everything is top quality, components, and optimised for peak performance it seems like old school is not so bad after all.


----------



## baronbeehive

Now that this thread is branching out yet again, we are used to seeing it being informative on amps, but also audio, tubes and such like... *and golf*. 😉. But also I see it's a music tipster thread. I've just checked out the recommendations we've had recently and the only one I don't like is Dombrance. I usually find techno quite boring, sorry. But that Billy Gibbons kicks ass, and Colin James is one fine player. I thought Bela Fleck was an american actor until I realised that was Ben Afleck 😊.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> How can you get better than HiFiMan 1000SE? You've had it now for around a year I believe so it must be good!



When a company like Audeze launch a TOTL headphone I take notice. Even Forbes wrote about it. I can't say though that the LCD5 has that much appeal. I need to test run it.

I had He1000se since Jan of 2021. So that's only 9 long months. The last month or so, I prefer the He1000se over the LCD4. However a day before LCD5 launched, I started using LCD4 and today I'm still using it and I start to feel that I prefer it over He1000se lol. That means you don't get rid of your headphones because it will come back into flavour again. Surprisingly I am so used to the weight now. So much so if I use a lighter headphone, it will feel like a toy.  

One thing I must not do is follow the crowd to get the flavour of the month headphone. Looking at the CBRN, Stealth thread is funny. Everyone flocks there. Then when LCD5 comes out everyone flock to the LCD5 thread. There were 400 plus viewers on the LCD5 thread today. Before a single review comes out, there are already 15 pages of posts ! Posts of FR graphs, posts of EQ to make the LCD5 better. Posts that denounce the LCD5 just by looking at the graphs. Posts about wishing for more colours of LCD5.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I must admit to being slightly sceptical about the Odyssey when I first heard about it being an old school design, but now after UT's comments I have to hand it to Sonic for carrying it off, and to the old school pioneers. Turns out they were on to a good thing all those years ago after all. So long as everything is top quality, components, and optimised for peak performance it seems like old school is not so bad after all.



I became interested again in old school design amps after the audition of Chord Qutest > Auris Nirvana > LCD4. After that 2 hours session at Minidisc, I realised that I do love 2nd harmonic distortions. That it's not old fashion to love slight warm and lushness in the midrange and bass with feelings. Listening to 'I'll play the blues for you' by Daniel Castro was enough to make me want an old school amp but I needed one where the top end sparkles and have some bite. It's can't be lame. It needs to be fast and agile. It needs a great soundstage and be amazing with stereo imaging and instruments separation. It needs to have a combination of old and new school. Tomas understood what I wanted and I very much believe he wanted that too. So Odyssey is born all thanks to Tomas. If he can create this, he has real talent there.


----------



## xfusion

TheMiddleSky said:


> Wow, you clearly write sound impression way better than me about this amp.
> 
> If only I recorded our friend's face when he compared Oblivion to his more expensive SS amp haha!


The Oblivion definitely broke many people's hearts that day   . They came with pride to show off their equipments and walked away shattered. Yes their face unfold everything that they cannot tell haha!


UntilThen said:


> I became interested again in old school design amps after the audition of Chord Qutest > Auris Nirvana > LCD4. After that 2 hours session at Minidisc, I realised that I do love 2nd harmonic distortions. That it's not old fashion to love slight warm and lushness in the midrange and bass with feelings. Listening to 'I'll play the blues for you' by Daniel Castro was enough to make me want an old school amp but I needed one where the top end sparkles and have some bite. It's can't be lame. It needs to be fast and agile. It needs a great soundstage and be amazing with stereo imaging and instruments separation. It needs to have a combination of old and new school. Tomas understood what I wanted and I very much believe he wanted that too. So Odyssey is born all thanks to Tomas. If he can create this, he has real talent there.


From someone who owns an Audeze LCD 4z too, I felt the same that this headphones will do well with old school tube amps. Those midrange lushness and bass slams will be amplified by the Audeze LCD4. I am worried that the LCD 5 will lose some of that flavour because the graphic measurement is closer to those HD800S and CRBN which means it will be a much brighter headphone than the LCD4. I remember how LCD 4z sounded like 3 years ago, and I preferred LCD4 over the 4z because although it had a better clarity and speed but it was abit too bright on top and thin at the low frequency. Luckily in 2021 this year LCD 4z was upgraded with brass copper mesh, it has thicker and richer sound now with a textured and tighter bass. I would say LCD4 still has slightly more fluid and bigger bass than the 4z. However, all of these meaning that your Odyssey has a better synergy with the newer Top of the Line headphones that are coming out recently then lol   Happy hunting again for you!


----------



## UntilThen

xfusion said:


> The Oblivion definitely broke many people's hearts that day   . They came with pride to show off their equipments and walked away shattered. Yes their face unfold everything that they cannot tell haha!



Yup a remarkable tube amp indeed. Never failed to impress me whenever I use it ... like now.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

xfusion said:


> The Oblivion definitely broke many people's hearts that day   . They came with pride to show off their equipments and walked away shattered. Yes their face unfold everything that they cannot tell haha!
> 
> From someone who owns an Audeze LCD 4z too, I felt the same that this headphones will do well with old school tube amps. Those midrange lushness and bass slams will be amplified by the Audeze LCD4. I am worried that the LCD 5 will lose some of that flavour because the graphic measurement is closer to those HD800S and CRBN which means it will be a much brighter headphone than the LCD4. I remember how LCD 4z sounded like 3 years ago, and I preferred LCD4 over the 4z because although it had a better clarity and speed but it was abit too bright on top and thin at the low frequency. Luckily in 2021 this year LCD 4z was upgraded with brass copper mesh, it has thicker and richer sound now with a textured and tighter bass. I would say LCD4 still has slightly more fluid and bigger bass than the 4z. However, all of these meaning that your Odyssey has a better synergy with the newer Top of the Line headphones that are coming out recently then lol   Happy hunting again for you!


Fairly speaking, if we want to talk about frequency response on graph, LCD-5 is much closer to HD650 rather than HD800. Even HD650 actually produce more bump on around 3kHz than LCD-5. 

Anyway, today we tested Oblivion a little bit with GSX MK-II as pre amp. GSX is famous as an aggressive sounding amp, producing clear detail, with really nice speedy transient. Combine with neutral, full body and big imaging of Oblivion, dare I say they sound truly blissful! Paired really well with Focal Utopia and Diana Phi. 

Actually even Ultrasone ED5 Ltd sounds nice on them. I award this headphone as "the hardest to enjoy" high end headphone ever, yet they actually sound ok with set up above.


----------



## triod750

TheMiddleSky said:


> Fairly speaking, if we want to talk about frequency response on graph, LCD-5 is much closer to HD650 rather than HD800. Even HD650 actually produce more bump on around 3kHz than LCD-5.
> 
> Anyway, today we tested Oblivion a little bit with GSX MK-II as pre amp. GSX is famous as an aggressive sounding amp, producing clear detail, with really nice speedy transient. Combine with neutral, full body and big imaging of Oblivion, dare I say they sound truly blissful! Paired really well with Focal Utopia and Diana Phi.
> 
> Actually even Ultrasone ED5 Ltd sounds nice on them. I award this headphone as "the hardest to enjoy" high end headphone ever, yet they actually sound ok with set up above.


_The moment you believe your own crap, you fail. - RK
_
I'm sorry - I am just kidding. No offense meant.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> One thing I must not do is follow the crowd to get the flavour of the month headphone.


Yes, the herd mentality is a big thing with audio to guard against👍.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> Anyway, today we tested Oblivion a little bit with GSX MK-II as pre amp. GSX is famous as an aggressive sounding amp, producing clear detail, with really nice speedy transient. Combine with neutral, full body and big imaging of Oblivion, dare I say they sound truly blissful! Paired really well with Focal Utopia and Diana Phi.



I can get a sense of how the 2 amps differ. Thanks for articulating it. The human ear is a marvellous organ. Within the same human, you will experience change of preference. Sometime within a short period of time. Other times over a longer interval.

I've personally experience this change over, sometimes flip flopping repeatedly. You'll love one extreme of neutrality, transparency and absolute details, only to flip to the other extreme of warm, lushness and pronounced bass. Why is it so? It's simply because we're a variable creature. Our emotions are not static. It changes constantly. 

So armed yourself with a few source, a few amps and a few headphones and don't sell them.  Listening to Mahler: Symphony No 4 now on Qobuz. Oh arm yourself with Roon, Tidal and Qobuz because the next release of Roon 1.8 allows you to compare version of a song on your hard drive with the versions in Qobuz and Tidal. It also allows native control of Roon from your mobile.

Welcome to Wed 22nd September 2021.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Yes, the herd mentality is a big thing with audio to guard against👍.



Don't be a sheep. Be a goat.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> I've personally experience this change over, sometimes flip flopping repeatedly. You'll love one extreme of neutrality, transparency and absolute details, only to flip to the other extreme of warm, lushness and pronounced bass. Why is it so? It's simply because we're a variable creature. Our emotions are not static. It changes constantly.


Agree. And this is why tube rolling is so good. Just think of the poor sods that have to buy a new amp, repeatedly   . We tube rollers just change tubes, don't we?


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> Agree. And this is why tube rolling is so good. Just think of the poor sods that have to buy a new amp, repeatedly   . We tube rollers just change tubes, don't we?



To save the planet and tube sockets, I've disciplined myself to change tubes only once a week. Aside from that I also change or rotate the 'O' amps and 2 very contrasting headphones.  Going to get back my Bifrost 2 and then I'll have 2 contrasting dacs too.


----------



## triod750

You are aware of that you don't have the same frequency response in both your ears? Nobody has. So much for matched tubes...
Try Oblivion in one ear and Odyssey in the other and tell us  what you experience. Then switch them around and tell us how this differs.

(Right now I have a Sylvania 6J5GT/G 1944 in the left channel and an anonymus 6C5G in the right channel and it sounds good and pretty balanced. When I switch them around the sound becomes tilted).


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> You are aware of that you don't have the same frequency response in both your ears? Nobody has. So much for matched tubes...
> Try Oblivion in one ear and Odyssey in the other and tell us  what you experience. Then switch them around and tell us how this differs.
> 
> (Right now I have a Sylvania 6J5GT/G 1944 in the left channel and an anonymus 6C5G in the right channel and it sounds good and pretty balanced. When I switch them around the sound becomes tilted).



Ha you're propagating some strange ideas. Our brains have a way to balance out our ears. What you eventually hear is decipher by the brain. This human body is ultra complex and beautiful.


----------



## triod750 (Sep 21, 2021)

I am pulling your leg a little. Nothing strange about that. Common practise.


UntilThen said:


> Our brains have a way to balance out our ears. What you eventually hear is decipher by the brain. This human body is ultra complex and beautiful.


I agree with this. We are hearing with the brain.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> You wouldn't get much for a measly $2.50 .


 The bad part is that's my annual salary. If @UntilThen didn't consider it such an honor for me to caddy for him, I'd probably upgrade to welfare.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Ha you're propagating some strange ideas. Our brains have a way to balance out our ears. What you eventually hear is decipher by the brain. This human body is ultra complex and beautiful.


Try wiring one ear cup out of phase relative to the other.  Even highly developed brains can't deal with that.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> The bad part is that's my annual salary. If @UntilThen didn't consider it such an honor for me to caddy for him, I'd probably upgrade to welfare.


And it is AUD…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> And it is AUD…


Geez, thanks for rubbing it in Debbie Downer.


----------



## jonathan c

triod750 said:


> I am pulling your leg a little. Nothing strange about that. Common practise.
> 
> I agree with this. We are hearing with the brain.


Oh my, so much for hearing with a graph…😒


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Try wiring one ear cup out of phase relative to the other.  Even highly developed brains can't deal with that.



Is that why we had an earthquake an hour ago. Magnitude of 6.0 ! Stop those crazy wiring.


----------



## jonathan c (Sep 21, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Geez, thanks for rubbing it in Debbie Downer.


Just stand your ground and say “it’s USD for me!”…. Your employer can afford it….think of the money games that he has won based on _your _club selection….besides, a crappy swing is no excuse for being given the _right _club…your expertise is not free…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Geez, thanks for rubbing it in Debbie Down*und*er.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> Yes, the herd mentality is a big thing with audio to guard against👍.


So is the ‘heard’ mentality…use _your_ ears, mind, and heart…


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Is that why we had an earthquake an hour ago. *Magnitude of 6.0* ! Stop those crazy wiring.


Even when it comes to objective data - @UntilThen is hyping and exaggerating...


----------



## jonathan c

Zachik said:


> Even when it comes to objective data - @UntilThen is hyping and exaggerating...


Could tube vibration _chez _UT have added 0.1 Richter points to the tally?…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Could tube vibration _chez _UT have added 0.1 Richter points to the tally?…


Maybe, but I think it was due more to the digestion byproducts of his breakfast burrito.


----------



## Zachik

jonathan c said:


> Could tube vibration _chez _UT have added 0.1 Richter points to the tally?…


Only if the oscillation frequency of one, is the 1st or 2nd harmonic of the other!


----------



## UntilThen

I was in the midst of Tchaikovsky Nutcracker.


----------



## jonathan c

Zachik said:


> Only if the oscillation frequency of one, is the 1st or 2nd harmonic of the other!


And cascades upward…


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> The bad part is that's my annual salary. If @UntilThen didn't consider it such an honor for me to caddy for him, I'd probably upgrade to welfare.



Stop complaining and I might let you listen to this. It's better than Shangri-La. It's an afternoon of Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky !


----------



## Maxx134

xfusion said:


> When I listened to this amplifier, this was being compared directly through critical and heavy A B listening sessions with many other highly regarded amplifiers and much much more expensive amplifiers which I would not mention in here because the Oblivion blew them away good


Haha nobody likes when you mention heavy hitters costing thousands, blown away...
I remember my fist time..
My mind was blown. You never forget your first time...😅 
Shell-shocked in disbelief

Then I posted some of those components in beginning of this thread, (yes a bit unorganized), and It remained hard to be believed, until they hear it.



UntilThen said:


> I had He1000se since Jan of 2021. So that's only 9 long months. The last month or so, I prefer the He1000se over the LCD4


What do you think of the susvara?


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> What do you think of the susvara?



As He1000se fulfils 90% of my needs, Susvara seems a logical next step. I've heard Susvara twice with:-

Wa33 > Susvara (not sure what the dac was as it's at the Sydney HiFi show 2017 Darling Harbour at the Addicted To Audio stand. I was very impressed then)

Chord Hugo TT2 + M'Scalar > Auris Nirvana > Susvara. This audition was only mid this year at Minidisc. Very good as well.

I have Yggdrasil and Odyssey and Oblivion now. Susvara or Abyss TC or the new LCD5 are on the cards. Will keep the LCD4 because it's great and I'm using it now. A shame Audeze is discontinuing it. Mine will be a collector's item in a few years time.


----------



## UntilThen

The whole of today I was listening to classical with LCD4 and Oblivion. At some point I gave my head a rest and switch to speakers. Towards the end of the day, I put on some vocals and this combination nails it. Could not believe it sound so good.

The urge is strong to return to Odyssey. So it's back to Odyssey with some nice tubes tonight.

I came home with all my amps but I have not touch the 300b amp nor have I touch the Elekit TU8200. Tried Wa22 once and it sound so glaringly obvious how much it lacks in term of resolution and clarity compared to Oblivion or Odyssey. I was using reasonably good tubes on the Wa22 too.


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 22, 2021)

bcowen said:


> The bad part is that's my annual salary. If @UntilThen didn't consider it such an honor for me to caddy for him, I'd probably upgrade to welfare.


There's only one thing for it, fish out all UT's golf balls from the lake and flog them on ebay, you could make a fortune .

Edit: ... or... you could refuse to dig him out of the bunker for the umpteenth time unless he raises your salary by one dollar per dig... you could make a fortune out of this too 👍.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> So is the ‘heard’ mentality…use _your_ ears, mind, and heart…


And when your ears have worn out due to excessive headphone use just feel those good vibrations coming up through your feet 🤪.


----------



## baronbeehive

@bcowen ... *or*... you could negotiate a bonus with UT on the basis of one dollar per birdie, and two dollars per albatross, and three dollars per hole in one... oh... maybe that wouldn't work though   .


----------



## UntilThen

I didn't realise how much I miss Odyssey until I plug it in again. It's Jupiter descending and Mercury rising. How well it's driving LCD4 !


----------



## TheMiddleSky

UntilThen said:


> As He1000se fulfils 90% of my needs, Susvara seems a logical next step. I've heard Susvara twice with:-
> 
> Wa33 > Susvara (not sure what the dac was as it's at the Sydney HiFi show 2017 Darling Harbour at the Addicted To Audio stand. I was very impressed then)
> 
> ...



Don't worry, Audeze is Audeze, they don't discontinue ex flagship that easy (LCD-2 and LCD-3 still here live and kicking). 

LCD-4 would remain exist together with LCD-5 (already confirmed by Audeze). Only now they lack of parts for LCD-4 that their web show no stock. 

Based on what I heard (Susvara and Oblivion) I do think your next set up should be Susvara! (Ok, unless LCD-5 is truly super good, but I'll wait till have chance to listen).


----------



## whirlwind

TheMiddleSky said:


> Don't worry, Audeze is Audeze, they don't discontinue ex flagship that easy (LCD-2 and LCD-3 still here live and kicking).
> 
> LCD-4 would remain exist together with LCD-5 (already confirmed by Audeze). Only now they lack of parts for LCD-4 that their web show no stock.
> 
> Based on what I heard (Susvara and Oblivion) I do think your next set up should be Susvara! (Ok, unless LCD-5 is truly super good, but I'll wait till have chance to listen).


I agree.

How would they repair any of the LCD-4 headphones that they have sold.

They would have to already have a plan in place to replace LCD-5 drivers in LCD-4 housing ect.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> Don't worry, Audeze is Audeze, they don't discontinue ex flagship that easy (LCD-2 and LCD-3 still here live and kicking).
> 
> LCD-4 would remain exist together with LCD-5 (already confirmed by Audeze). Only now they lack of parts for LCD-4 that their web show no stock.
> 
> Based on what I heard (Susvara and Oblivion) I do think your next set up should be Susvara! (Ok, unless LCD-5 is truly super good, but I'll wait till have chance to listen).



Have you heard the Abyss 1266 Phi TC with Oblivion?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> @bcowen ... *or*... you could negotiate a bonus with UT on the basis of one dollar per birdie, and two dollars per albatross, and three dollars per hole in one... oh... maybe that wouldn't work though  .


Yeah, my salary would stay the same.  I'd get rich at $5 per bogey though.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Yeah, my salary would stay the same.  I'd get rich at $5 per bogey though.


Charge UT $1 per mulligan. Say that the proceeds go to support solid/state containment…


----------



## UntilThen

Telefunken EL156 is certified platinum status now. This tube is SPECIAL ! Listening to Roger Waters US & Them on Roon > Qobuz. When I came home that LP was sitting there waiting for me. Haven't even open it yet !


----------



## Contrails

Anyone planning on selling their Oblivion? I am looking for one in 230v and with Lo/Hi impedance switch and XLR inputs. Thanks.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Telefunken EL156 is certified platinum status now.


I guess you know that several manufacturers made during time EL156. I wonder how other sound.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I guess you know that several manufacturers made during time EL156. I wonder how other sound.


I can't talk about the other brand except Telefunken which I have. The chinese ones are a totally different.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Telefunken EL156 is certified platinum status now. This tube is SPECIAL ! Listening to Roger Waters US & Them on Roon > Qobuz. When I came home that LP was sitting there waiting for me. Haven't even open it yet !


Excellent! I was only watching the vid again on YouTube last night, the Wall where the kids rip open their dungarees to reveal the slogan on their teeshirts! Then there is the Great Gig In The Sky, and I just found out that those great backing singers are a fantastic group in their own right called Lucius, you might be interested in checking out their 3 albums.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Excellent! I was only watching the vid again on YouTube last night, the Wall where the kids rip open their dungarees to reveal the slogan on their teeshirts! Then there is the Great Gig In The Sky, and I just found out that those great backing singers are a fantastic group in their own right called Lucius, you might be interested in checking out their 3 albums.



I listen to Lucius for a bit but there's so much to listen in Qobuz and Tidal. High Rez !


----------



## TheMiddleSky (Sep 23, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Have you heard the Abyss 1266 Phi TC with Oblivion?


not yet 

I'd definitely write here when I have chance

There is one of my friend here who run his 1266 phi with manley absolute amp, I just feel so curious how it compare to oblivion


----------



## xfusion

TheMiddleSky said:


> not yet
> 
> I'd definitely write here when I have chance
> 
> There is one of my friend here who run his 1266 phi with manley absolute amp, I just feel so curious how it compare to oblivion


Should get him to come while the Oblivion is still there


----------



## xfusion

Contrails said:


> Anyone planning on selling their Oblivion? I am looking for one in 230v and with Lo/Hi impedance switch and XLR inputs. Thanks.


You should order directly to Tomas plus you can customize as much as you like too.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> not yet
> 
> I'd definitely write here when I have chance
> 
> There is one of my friend here who run his 1266 phi with manley absolute amp, I just feel so curious how it compare to oblivion



That's the TC yes?


----------



## UntilThen

One of those days where I go, 'I don't need anything but Oblivion and LCD4'. Sounding incredibly transparent and clear today. You can see I have preserve my Oblivion very well. A damp cloth wipe every now and then. It's pure black !

Impedance switch is set to high and it's better with LCD4.


----------



## UntilThen

Did not expect the Mullard EL81s to arrive so quickly from UK ! It's here and boxes are very interesting and new ! 

These are 24 pounds for 4 tubes. Dirt cheap compared to Odyssey power tubes. These are Made in Britain.  Recommended by Maxx so I'm going to burn it in before giving my assessment. EL81 reminds me of the famed EL84. What strikes me as remarkable is how quiet the brand new tubes are in Oblivion. However the stock Siemens EL81 are also ultra quiet. This is where I love Oblivion. Pure silence and pitch black background.

Not sure what Kradlepak is but the box is special in that you open from the side.


Mullard EL81 next to Siemens EL81. Great Britain vs Germany.


----------



## UntilThen

This is insane. After nearly 2 years, I still get the wow moments. This system is a killer. Oblivion is priceless. Dario Miniwatt 6av6 and Mullard EL81 tubes in there.


----------



## SonicTrance

@UntilThen 
The EL81 is a very good tube indeed!
I'm glad to see your Oblivion gets some usage even though you have your new Odyssey. Would you say we succeeded in the quest to give you two contrasting and complementary amps?


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> @UntilThen
> The EL81 is a very good tube indeed!
> I'm glad to see your Oblivion gets some usage even though you have your new Odyssey. Would you say we succeeded in the quest to give you two contrasting and complementary amps?



Oblivion and Odyssey turn out to be perfect compliments. Pretty much He1000se complimenting LCD4. It takes a while for new found joy in a new amp like Odyssey to bed down. It's been one and a half months now and it's easier to see and hear the difference subjectively now without being partial. 

Still love Odyssey for being the wonder tube amp that it is but I have a bit of time now to devote to Oblivion. It's very refreshing to go from the lusher and warmer of Odyssey to the airier and fresher tone of Oblivion. I see some common traits between the 2 amps. Clear and extended top ends but what I didn't expect was the mid and bass from Oblivion. With the warmer Mullard EL81, Oblivion starts to morph into what I like about Odyssey in it's presentation of the mid and bass. It isn't quite there yet but I wouldn't want it to get any closer. This distinction makes the 2 amps very appealing. 

Gone are the days when I have to deal with noisy tubes because I don't have this problem with both these 2 amps.


----------



## UntilThen

I try not to get too caught up with how Ultrasonic Studio amps look because they are very attractive. I rather focus on the sound. Oblivion sound very different from the first 3 months from whence I had it compared to now. Where I had detect a touch of 'hardness' in the early days, is now replaced by a smoothness and naturalness. I can only attribute it to 'burn in' of the amp and brain.  

In the nearly 2 years (will be 2 years by 23rd Dec of 2021) I have Oblivion, I've switch headphones from HD800, Verite Open and LCD-3f to He1000se and LCD4. I spend yesterday and this morning with both of those 2 headphones with Oblivion. He1000se is brighter whereas LCD4 is more 'comfortable' natural tone to the ears. Don't get me wrong. I love He1000se just as much with Oblivion. Perhaps even more.

What I hear from Oblivion is a smoothness and sublime tone with a class leading wide soundstage. It's incredibly impressive. I'm itching to get back to Odyssey but I need just a few more songs with Oblivion. The dilemma of having Oblivion and Odyssey. I can't decide which I want to spend my listening time with. 

Here's where I'm left wondering. How does Infinity and Eternity compare to Oblivion and Odyssey. Also Citadel. In an ideal world, I would have all of them here to have my own evaluation and comparison.


----------



## UntilThen

Problem solved. Both amps on the desk now.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Here's where I'm left wondering. How does Infinity and Eternity compare to Oblivion and Odyssey. Also Citadel. In an ideal world, I would have all of them here to have my own evaluation and comparison.


That's what I've been wondering, unfortunately nobody here has got them all to compare. Based on their specs I would imagine Citadel to be the cleanest sound, next Oblivion, next Infinity and Eternity with more tube tone, and next Odyssey with the most tube tone of all, but still pretty clean. This is because of the balanced design going from Citadel, next to Oblivion which is part balanced and other factors such as PSU regulation and so on. The amp I'm most interested in is Infinity and Eternity because of the new school things going on, yet still recognisable a tube amp.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> That's what I've been wondering, unfortunately nobody here has got them all to compare. Based on their specs I would imagine Citadel to be the cleanest sound, next Oblivion, next Infinity and Eternity with more tube tone, and next Odyssey with the most tube tone of all, but still pretty clean. This is because of the balanced design going from Citadel, next to Oblivion which is part balanced and other factors such as PSU regulation and so on. The amp I'm most interested in is Infinity and Eternity because of the new school things going on, yet still recognisable a tube amp.



You have a pretty good idea even though you've not heard any of these amps.   Well I can only wish for a full comparison of all these amps with my own ears and gear. This will be a 'busy' weekend for me as you can see I've all these hooked up. Yggdrasil is at the other end of the table and not in sight.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> The amp I'm most interested in is Infinity and Eternity because of the new school things going on, yet still recognisable a tube amp.



This is where you have not heard Oblivion yet because if you have, you'll agree with me that Oblivion sounds like a tube amp and IS a tube amp.  The Mullard EL81 has more than 8 hours on it now and the Miniwatt 6av6 has more. If I blindfold someone and let them listen to LCD4 with Oblivion now, they will fully agree with me that it is a tube amp sound.

He1000se is hooked up to Odyssey using EL11 and Miniwatt 6CA7 / EL34 tubes. Trying to decide which of the 2 combinations I like more and it's not an easy task !


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> This is where you have not heard Oblivion yet because if you have, you'll agree with me that Oblivion sounds like a tube amp and IS a tube amp.  The Mullard EL81 has more than 8 hours on it now and the Miniwatt 6av6 has more. If I blindfold someone and let them listen to LCD4 with Oblivion now, they will fully agree with me that it is a tube amp sound.
> 
> He1000se is hooked up to Odyssey using EL11 and Miniwatt 6CA7 / EL34 tubes. Trying to decide which of the 2 combinations I like more and it's not an easy task !


Yes it must be agonising .

I didn't mean that Oblivion didn't sound like a tube amp, just that the most obvious tube sound would come from Odyssey... as  you have no doubt found 👍.

Looks like you're in for a great weekend!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I didn't mean that Oblivion didn't sound like a tube amp, just that the most obvious tube sound would come from Odyssey... as you have no doubt found 👍.



Yup I know what you mean and you're absolutely right. The pairing of He1000se / Oblivion and LCD4 / Oblivion is so good. Will be a very fun weekend.


----------



## xfusion

UntilThen said:


> You have a pretty good idea even though you've not heard any of these amps.   Well I can only wish for a full comparison of all these amps with my own ears and gear. This will be a 'busy' weekend for me as you can see I've all these hooked up. Yggdrasil is at the other end of the table and not in sight.


This picture looks deceiving because the Oblivion is a huge amplifier! That Odyssey is thicker making it more deceivingly smaller than its actual size I believe.


----------



## UntilThen

xfusion said:


> This picture looks deceiving because the Oblivion is a huge amplifier! That Odyssey is thicker making it more deceivingly smaller than its actual size I believe.


Odyssey is deeper and Oblivion is wider. Odyssey width and depth is the same so it’s a square. Odyssey is much much heavier though. I still don’t know the weight but it’s definitely more than 22 kgs.


----------



## Maxx134 (Sep 25, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> A damp cloth wipe every now and then. It's pure black !


Good idea. Going to get some micro-fiber cloths 👍



UntilThen said:


> Mullard EL81 next to Siemens EL81. Great Britain vs Germany.


Yep, I recognize those yellowish white Mullard insides, compared to the Siemens bone white. 👌


----------



## baronbeehive

Goosebumps moment


----------



## UntilThen

Music does that to you. Goosebumps moments. Surreal moments. Transcendence moments. I listen to US & Them - Roger Waters several times yesterday and now on 2 quite distinct sounding setup. Oblivion + LCD4 and Odyssey + He1000se. Some of the lesser known tracks stood out to me, like 'One of these days', 'Breathe', 'Deja Vu', 'Dogs', 'Last Refugees'. The whole album on Qobuz is just astonishing and on these 2 systems, it's breath taking. Whether it's the clear highs from the He1000se or the superb lows from the LCD4, the change in perspective is a moment in time you're willing to set aside, just to immerse yourself in it. 

Odyssey and Oblivion contributing to it all. The contrast is distinctive. All I have to do is to put down a headphone and put on another without a pulse in the music to savour the difference. The iconic 'Another Brick in the Wall' came on and I reflect on when we're going to get another genius group like the Pink Floyd again.

I start to speculate on another Ultrasonic amp.

Low light photography sets the mood.


----------



## Galapac

Great cover of Help!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm in danger of winning a ECC35 bid which I didn't want now. Bcowen quick bid higher than me and take it out of my hands.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I'm in danger of winning a ECC35 bid which I didn't want now. Bcowen quick bid higher than me and take it out of my hands.


No can use gain high of 6SL7.    

So I guess this means I won't get paid this month.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> No can use gain high of 6SL7.
> 
> So I guess this means I won't get paid this month.



Not sure why the 6SL7 is not utilise more in tube amps but hey I ain't complaining because that means no competition for me. Using the GE (RCA) 5691 brown base now with Miniwatt EL34 metal base and it's a unicorn moment.

Ah... if I win that ECC35, I'll send the invoice to you.


----------



## UntilThen

Bcowen I'm buying you a ukulele for Christmas.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm having my own CAMJAM while reading others impressions of the CAMJAM. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/can...ons-thread-september-25-26-2021.959896/page-3


----------



## UntilThen

@baronbeehive  here's Lucius for you. War On Drugs recent album. Interesting.


----------



## normie610

UntilThen said:


> I'm in danger of winning a ECC35 bid which I didn't want now. Bcowen quick bid higher than me and take it out of my hands.


Single or pair? I might be interested 🤭


----------



## UntilThen

normie610 said:


> Single or pair? I might be interested 🤭


Both.

Here's a pair with 3 hours to go and 13 bidders. Good luck.   
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1249034...aultOrganicWeb&_trksid=p2563228.c101113.m2108


----------



## normie610

UntilThen said:


> Both.
> 
> Here's a pair with 3 hours to go and 13 bidders. Good luck.
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/124903489456?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20200818142055&meid=afec7605a1e446bf9f24a001492b4ace&pid=101113&rk=1&rkt=12&sd=124903399646&itm=124903489456&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2563228&algv=DefaultOrganicWeb&_trksid=p2563228.c101113.m2108


Thanks 😁


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Both.
> 
> Here's a pair with 3 hours to go and 13 bidders. Good luck.
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/124903489456?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20200818142055&meid=afec7605a1e446bf9f24a001492b4ace&pid=101113&rk=1&rkt=12&sd=124903399646&itm=124903489456&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2563228&algv=DefaultOrganicWeb&_trksid=p2563228.c101113.m2108


Dang.  That seller is getting around:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Matche...5&toolid=10001&customid=ku0h6vb1mi01zlp100004


----------



## UntilThen (Sep 25, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Dang.  That seller is getting around:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Matche...5&toolid=10001&customid=ku0h6vb1mi01zlp100004



Yup looks like he's opening up his own collection.

Mine should be worth US$300 a pair.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Yup looks like he's opening up his own collection.


May be time for me to sell off all my GE's.  Yup, both of them.


----------



## UntilThen

Good I've been outbid. First time I'm happy I've been outbid.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> Good I've been outbid. First time I'm happy I've been outbid.


Earliest version with upturned tray getters. Those are the ones to get. Bid some more!


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Earliest version with upturned tray getters. Those are the ones to get. Bid some more!



Now you tell me.  Tubes (good) are an expensive investment. I'll put my mulah on a headphone instead and there are a lot of new interesting headphones on the market now.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I'm in danger of winning a ECC35 bid which I didn't want now. Bcowen quick bid higher than me and take it out of my hands.


@bcowen quick now's your chance to get a raise in salary to $1.25 .


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> @baronbeehive  here's Lucius for you. War On Drugs recent album. Interesting.



Thanks! Another great Lucius moment, they sure get around!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Music does that to you. Goosebumps moments. Surreal moments. Transcendence moments.


Yep, we are so lucky to have this fantastic audio hobby, I can't get enough of it TBH .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Yep, we are so lucky to have this fantastic audio hobby, I can't get enough of it TBH .



We have 5 senses as humans. Hearing is one of them. It's a complex system. We don't think much about it because we take it for granted that we can hear but how do we actually hear?

Music, laughter, car honks — all reach the ears as sound waves in the air. The outer ear funnels the waves down the ear canal (the external acoustic meatus) to the tympanic membrane (the “ear drum”). The sound waves beat against the tympanic membrane, creating mechanical vibrations in the membrane. The tympanic membrane transfers these vibrations to three small bones, known as auditory ossicles, found in the air-filled cavity of the middle ear. These bones – the malleus, incus, and stapes – carry the vibrations and knock against the opening to the inner ear. The inner ear consists of fluid-filled canals, including the spiral-shaped cochlea. As the ossicles pound away, specialized hair cells in the cochlea detect pressure waves in the fluid. They activate nervous receptors, sending signals through the cochlear nerve toward the brain, which interprets the signals as sounds.

Now does it surprise you that we don't always heard music alike?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> We have 5 senses as humans. Hearing is one of them. It's a complex system. We don't think much about it because we take it for granted that we can hear but how do we actually hear?
> 
> Music, laughter, car honks — all reach the ears as sound waves in the air. The outer ear funnels the waves down the ear canal (the external acoustic meatus) to the tympanic membrane (the “ear drum”). The sound waves beat against the tympanic membrane, creating mechanical vibrations in the membrane. The tympanic membrane transfers these vibrations to three small bones, known as auditory ossicles, found in the air-filled cavity of the middle ear. These bones – the malleus, incus, and stapes – carry the vibrations and knock against the opening to the inner ear. The inner ear consists of fluid-filled canals, including the spiral-shaped cochlea. As the ossicles pound away, specialized hair cells in the cochlea detect pressure waves in the fluid. They activate nervous receptors, sending signals through the cochlear nerve toward the brain, which interprets the signals as sounds.
> 
> Now does it surprise you that we don't always heard music alike?


Yeah, the fluid in my ears is Jim Beam.  Perhaps if it was a 50 year old scotch I'd like classical even more.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Yeah, the fluid in my ears is Jim Beam.  Perhaps if it was a 50 year old scotch I'd like classical even more.


Phew, you saved us from being lead into the realms of psychophysiology, yet another deviation on this thread .


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Phew, you saved us from being lead into the realms of psychophysiology, yet another deviation on this thread .


LOL!  I was afraid with @UntilThen involved it would become only psycho.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Yeah, the fluid in my ears is Jim Beam.  Perhaps if it was a 50 year old scotch I'd like classical even more.



Change Jim Beam to Vodka and Tchaikovsky will sound perfect. Know your fluid !


----------



## UntilThen

5am listening session is sublime. The mind's clear, the ear's clear, the brain's clear. The first song is just beautiful. 

Also reading the CAMJAM impression thread is like a Sunday fish market. Everyone wants to know the best headphone.  My conclusion. You need several options. Amps, headphones, tubes... because we get tired of hearing the same tone over a period of time. You need to switch it around. Change that fluid every 3 months too.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Change Jim Beam to Vodka and Tchaikovsky will sound perfect. Know your fluid !


No fluid, though, can make Marilyn Manson perfect (or even OK)…comprenez-vous, Messr. Cowen…?


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> 5am listening session is sublime. The mind's clear, the ear's clear, the brain's clear. The first song is just beautiful.
> 
> Also reading the CAMJAM impression thread is like a Sunday fish market. Everyone wants to know the best headphone.  My conclusion. You need several options. Amps, headphones, tubes... because we get tired of hearing the same tone over a period of time. You need to switch it around. Change that fluid every 3 months too.


Change what’s between the ears while one is at it…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Change what’s between the ears while one is at it…



That's rather difficult because it hasn't been perfected yet. Brain change that is. The danger is getting a Baboon brain instead.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> No fluid, though, can make Marilyn Manson perfect (or even OK)…comprenez-vous, Messr. Cowen…?


Radioactive moonshine can.  You must expand your horizons.


----------



## UntilThen

A day in the life of UntilThen. 2 words to describe them. Fair Dinkum.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Radioactive moonshine can.  You must expand your horizons.


I think that's what he sprinkles over his morning breakfast cereal, either that or he's permanently without sleep .


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> That's rather difficult because it hasn't been perfected yet. Brain change that is. The danger is getting a Baboon brain instead.


No worries brain microchip rolling is coming 👍.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> check with Glenn first. EL156 is 1.9a each.


Good news, more good news and yet more good news:
Glenn (finally!!!) responded to me. In his words he is "getting better now" so hopefully he would also start posting on Head-Fi again. Fingers crossed.
The additional good news is that EL156 should work fine (with adapters) in my 6EL3N amp.
Yet more good news: I just ordered EL156 tubes. Seller had 2 NOS tubes, no tester so he cannot test or make sure they match, but hopefully all would be good.
Now, I just need to order the adapters...


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Good news, more good news and yet more good news:
> Glenn (finally!!!) responded to me. In his words he is "getting better now" so hopefully he would also start posting on Head-Fi again. Fingers crossed.
> The additional good news is that EL156 should work fine (with adapters) in my 6EL3N amp.
> Yet more good news: I just ordered EL156 tubes. Seller had 2 NOS tubes, no tester so he cannot test or make sure they match, but hopefully all would be good.
> Now, I just need to order the adapters...



Good on you. You're not running 4 x EL156 at the back row right?


----------



## UntilThen

A day in the life of UntilThen.  Music without tube amps is not complete.


----------



## UntilThen

After this CAMJAM video report, I want to hear the LCD5 out of Odyssey. See the last guy say that it will be interesting out of a tube amp and they ain't no hear Odyssey yet. Odyssey should be in that CAMJAM but I ain't sacrificing Odyssey for the mass.   

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audeze-lcd-5-review-measurements-interview.959808/post-16584250


----------



## UntilThen

Just gave Odyssey the exposure it deserves.   
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audeze-lcd-4.782442/post-16584715


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Good on you. You're not running 4 x EL156 at the back row right?


I can use 4 x EL3N *OR* 2 x KT-66/77/88 / EL156 with adapters... 4 x EL156 would definitely fry my transformers!!


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> I can use 4 x EL3N *OR* 2 x KT-66/77/88 / EL156 with adapters... 4 x EL156 would definitely fry my transformers!!



Hahahaha don't fry your transformers.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Hahahaha don't fry your transformers.


and don’t transform your fryers…


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> Good news, more good news and yet more good news:
> Glenn (finally!!!) responded to me. In his words he is "getting better now" so hopefully he would also start posting on Head-Fi again. Fingers crossed.
> The additional good news is that EL156 should work fine (with adapters) in my 6EL3N amp.
> Yet more good news: I just ordered EL156 tubes. Seller had 2 NOS tubes, *no tester so he cannot test *or make sure they match, but hopefully all would be good.
> Now, I just need to order the adapters...


Fortunately you do...and can.


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Good news, more good news and yet more good news:
> Glenn (finally!!!) responded to me. In his words he is "getting better now" so hopefully he would also start posting on Head-Fi again. Fingers crossed.
> The additional good news is that EL156 should work fine (with adapters) in my 6EL3N amp.
> Yet more good news: I just ordered EL156 tubes. Seller had 2 NOS tubes, no tester so he cannot test or make sure they match, but hopefully all would be good.
> Now, I just need to order the adapters...



You hear this @whirlwind ? Go try the EL156 and thank me afterwards.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Fortunately you do...and can.


I wonder if I an find EL156 in the testing tables...


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> I wonder if I an find EL156 in the testing tables...


Or a socket to test them in.   

Seriously, am I safe in assuming the bottom of the adapter you're getting has an octal base with the pinout of a KT-88?  If so, test it with the adapter attached with KT-88 (or 6550) settings.  Not exact, but close enough for ballpark matching purposes.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Or a socket to test them in.
> 
> Seriously, am I safe in assuming the bottom of the adapter you're getting has an octal base with the pinout of a KT-88?  If so, test it with the adapter attached with KT-88 (or 6550) settings.  Not exact, but close enough for ballpark matching purposes.


Correct. It’s a EL156 to KT88 adapter.


----------



## UntilThen

Another day in the life of UntilThen. Was going to sell off the Wa22 but for the price I might as well keep it. Drives the He1000se beautifully.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen has a good life. OctavianH lost one day of his life reading the CanJam thread and found that LCD-5 and Elite might be interesting to try. He knew that before reading. LOL


----------



## UntilThen

I'm psychic I can sense what's good.  I'm now going to let the dust settle down first. Then I will audition LCD5 by bringing in my amp to the store if possible. Same for Susvara. A lot of work ! There's only one way to find out. Try it out for myself.


----------



## OctavianH

I wonder why these guys do not offer demo service worldwide or at least in countries where they have distributors. When they ask for 4.5K EUR they do not have a problem, but to implement a system to let my 30KG system at home they are lazy.


----------



## UntilThen

They will but not right now. It will take till early next year before Addicted To Audio has a LCD5 to audition... that's my guess. In the interim, I will enjoy my Hekse and LCD4.  They are still good... believe me.


----------



## UntilThen

Another day in the life of UntilThen. Destiny (300b amp) really surprised me. I have not heard this amp for many weeks. The mids and bass will send you to middle earth. A 300b amp is a must for tube amps lover. Destiny is the only tube amp with a soundstage as wide as Oblivion. Sounds great with the LCD4. Sounds even better than Auris Nirvana.


----------



## xfusion

UntilThen said:


> Another day in the life of UntilThen. Destiny (300b amp) really surprised me. I have not heard this amp for many weeks. The mids and bass will send you to middle earth. A 300b amp is a must for tube amps lover. Destiny is the only tube amp with a soundstage as wide as Oblivion. Sounds great with the LCD4. Sounds even better than Auris Nirvana.


oh No 😅😅.


----------



## UntilThen

xfusion said:


> oh No 😅😅.


What oh no. I'm getting triple goose bumps now. This 300b is a muscular and romantic sounding amp. Power on tap is amazing. Very good tone ! This is where I think to myself.... what will Tomas's 300b amp sound like?


----------



## xfusion

UntilThen said:


> This is where I think to myself.... what will Tomas's 300b amp sound like?


This is exactly what the Oh No meant. 😄😄


----------



## UntilThen

2nd song on this video. I'll play the blues for you. Up the volume and Destiny goes so deep and will move your organs.

Yes exactly.... Tomas's 300b amp with Sowter transformers will be frighteningly good.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> You hear this @whirlwind ? Go try the EL156 and thank me afterwards.


I have added to the list of tubes that GEL3N can use...thanks


----------



## xfusion

UntilThen said:


> 2nd song on this video. I'll play the blues for you. Up the volume and Destiny goes so deep and will move your organs.
> 
> Yes exactly.... Tomas's 300b amp with Sowter transformers will be frighteningly good.



Which 300B that are installed in the Destiny right now?


----------



## UntilThen

Genalex 300b.


----------



## UntilThen

xfusion said:


> This is exactly what the Oh No meant. 😄😄



I'm getting too many messages because I can't remember who ask me what I feel about my trinity of amps now. Odyssey, Oblivion and Destiny. Amaze balls is all I can say. Wa22 and Elekit TU8200 are surplus now but those 3 are my nirvana. My state of zen. My stairway to heaven.  They are different enough to make my life interesting !


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> I'm getting too many messages because I can't remember who ask me what I feel about my trinity of amps now. Odyssey, Oblivion and Destiny. Amaze balls is all I can say. Wa22 and Elekit TU8200 are surplus now but those 3 are my nirvana. My state of zen. My stairway to heaven.  They are different enough to make my life interesting !


Having choices is a very good thing


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Another day in the life of UntilThen. Destiny (300b amp) really surprised me. I have not heard this amp for many weeks. The mids and bass will send you to middle earth. *A 300b amp is a must for tube amps lover*. Destiny is the only tube amp with a soundstage as wide as Oblivion. Sounds great with the LCD4. Sounds even better than Auris Nirvana.


I've been saying this repeatedly for like, what, 100 years now?  Sheeez.  Glad someone finally took notice.


----------



## normie610

UntilThen said:


> Genalex 300b.


No WE300B? 😁


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I've been saying this repeatedly for like, what, 100 years now?  Sheeez.  Glad someone finally took notice.



You can't claim credit for that unless you can say, 'THIS IS SPARTA !!!!!'. It takes that for 300 to be convincing.


----------



## UntilThen

normie610 said:


> No WE300B? 😁



I am waiting for Bcowen to send me that. 99.99% matched pair that's what he says.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I am waiting for Bcowen to send me that. 99.99% matched pair that's what he says.


It's a factory matched _quad.  _Geeez, do I have to _constantly_ repeat myself?    

I have no idea how close they are to each other as I've never tested them, and I don't know what parameters WE used to define a "match."  Doubt it was 1%, probably more like 5% (or even 10%) but that's just a WAG.  They are 1958's though, which is one of the most notable years in the annals of human history for at least one other reason.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> *You can't claim credit for that *unless you can say, 'THIS IS SPARTA !!!!!'. It takes that for 300 to be convincing.


Yes I can.  I also invented fire, the wheel, sliced bread, and the magic eraser.  And because you read it here, it must be true.


----------



## UntilThen

Mazda(s) have landed.. new as fresh bread but only 3. Waiting for yours @Maxx134.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> It's a factory matched _quad.  _Geeez, do I have to _constantly_ repeat myself?
> 
> I have no idea how close they are to each other as I've never tested them, and I don't know what parameters WE used to define a "match."  Doubt it was 1%, probably more like 5% (or even 10%) but that's just a WAG.  They are 1958's though, which is one of the most notable years in the annals of human history for at least one other reason.


Favourite Foton year…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Favourite Foton year…


OK, two other reasons then.  Nitpicker.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> OK, two other reasons then.  Nitpicker.


From the AES:


----------



## jonathan c

And more about 1958:


----------



## jonathan c

Fast forward eleven years to 1969 - worst year for audio & for bcowen retrogression…:


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> Mazda(s) have landed.. new as fresh bread but only 3. Waiting for yours @Maxx134.


Yeah, it sucks that USPS does not do packages, only envelopes at $120US(!).
So I had to decrease box size and checked FedEx and UPS which were both lower but still limited higher prices than Europe.
I not sure why Australia is so difficult from US, but anyways it's on its way.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> I've been saying this repeatedly for like, what, 100 years now?  Sheeez.  Glad someone finally took notice.


Damn, that must mean I have to have one too .


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 29, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I am waiting for Bcowen to send me that. 99.99% matched pair *quad* that's what he says *promised*.


FTFY.


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 29, 2021)

bcowen said:


> It's a factory matched _quad.  _Geeez, do I have to _constantly_ repeat myself?
> 
> I have no idea how close they are to each other as I've never tested them, and I don't know what parameters WE used to define a "match."  Doubt it was 1%, probably more like 5% (or even 10%) but *that's just a WAG*.  They are 1958's though, which is one of the most notable years in the annals of human history for at least one other reason.


What do wives and girlfriends have to do with it .

Edit: And anyway what happens when you've used the matched quad a few times and they become unmatched .


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Yes I can.  I also invented fire, the wheel, sliced bread, and the magic eraser.  And because you read it here, it must be true.


You left out the force field .


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> Yeah, it sucks that USPS does not do packages, only envelopes at $120US(!).
> So I had to decrease box size and checked FedEx and UPS which were both lower but still limited higher prices than Europe.
> I not sure why Australia is so difficult from US, but anyways it's on its way.


Our postal service here has said that due to a lack of qualified HGV drivers for delivery they will have to charge a surcharge for packages just in time for Christmas, sorry UT.


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 29, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Favourite Foton year…


Really?

https://fotontractors.co.uk/


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> From the AES:


Alright I can read .


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> Fast forward eleven years to 1969 - *worst year for audio & for bcowen retrogression…:*


... and Marilyn Manson doesn't look too good either  .


----------



## baronbeehive

Now let me get on with listening to "Blues Guitar"👍


----------



## UntilThen

You're on a roll Mr Beehive. I'm listening to the world's greatest rock and roll setup today. The 5 is not a 4 and if you ain't heard a 4 yet, you're missing out. The best midrange and midbass this side of the Atlantic.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> You're on a roll Mr Beehive. I'm listening to the world's greatest rock and roll setup today. The 5 is not a 4 and if you ain't heard a 4 yet, you're missing out. The best midrange and midbass this side of the Atlantic.


Thanks for linking to that fantastic blues album, some of the best I've heard 👍.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Thanks for linking to that fantastic blues album, some of the best I've heard 👍.


Good looking too right?


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 29, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Good looking too right?


Indeed, I've been staring at her for the last hour or so, pity she doesn't move or do something!

Edit: Think I'll be naughty and save this music offline permanently.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Yeah, it sucks that USPS does not do packages, only envelopes at $120US(!).
> So I had to decrease box size and checked FedEx and UPS which were both lower but still limited higher prices than Europe.
> I not sure why Australia is so difficult from US, but anyways it's on its way.



I might be getting the tube in 2023.   

Sydney news: Deadline looms for health workers to get jab; deliveries impacted after FedEx mass walk off​


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Indeed, I've been staring at her for the last hour or so, pity she doesn't move or do something!
> 
> Edit: Think I'll be naughty and save this music offline permanently.



LCD4 is made for blues and electric guitar. With Odyssey of course. You should hear how low it gets and deep....


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 29, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> LCD4 is made for blues and electric guitar. With Odyssey of course. You should hear how low it gets and deep....


This blues is so good it would sound OK through tin cans LOL.

Edit: Wish it wasn't 5 hours long though I'm getting tired staring at her now .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> This blues is so good it would sound OK through tin cans LOL.
> 
> Edit: Wish it wasn't 5 hours long though I'm getting tired staring at her now .



At the 6 hour her eyes will move like Mona Lisa. Just keep at it and for goodness sake ditch that tin can !


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> At the 6 hour her eyes will move like Mona Lisa. Just keep at it and for goodness sake ditch that tin can !


Get titanium cans…


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> What do wives and girlfriends have to do with it


Well, wives and girlfriends are unlikely to be matched to 1%, 5%, or even 10%…😂😜…


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> Our postal service here has said that due to a lack of qualified HGV drivers for delivery they will have to charge a surcharge for packages just in time for Christmas, sorry UT.


If bcowen can keep a golf cart out of any lake for 60 days, can he qualify as a HGV driver? ===> supplement that caddie income in AUD…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> *If bcowen can keep a golf cart out of any lake for 60 days*, can he qualify as a HGV driver? ===> supplement that caddie income in AUD…


Please don't propose the impossible.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> What do wives and girlfriends have to do with it .
> 
> Edit: And anyway what happens when you've used the matched quad a few times and they become unmatched .


Western Electric 300B's never degrade or die, they just get sold to a new owner.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Western Electric 300B's never degrade or die, they just get sold to a new owner.


And four WEs get put up for paid quadoption…😖👎….


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> Get titanium cans…


Mine are the ones with string on that we had as kids .


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> Well, wives and girlfriends are unlikely to be matched to 1%, 5%, or even 10%…😂😜…


Definitely unmatched .


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 30, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Please don't propose the impossible.


If you can drive a golf cart you can drive a *H*uge *G*reat *V*ehicle... but it doesn't want to end up in the lake ideally, UT doesn't want to pay extra for packaging for his priceless WE's at Christmas... sorry Thanksgiving 🙂👍.

Edit: And I can definitely match your pay from UT, I can offer 0.99$/annum... a decent rise don't you think  🤣.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Western Electric 300B's never degrade or die, they just get sold to a new owner.


Yes me 😩.


----------



## UntilThen

There is one more item to get.


----------



## Galapac

UntilThen said:


> There is one more item to get.


Unless you split screen that…you are going to be doing a lot of head turning.
sometimes a sceen is just too wide…


----------



## UntilThen

Galapac said:


> Unless you split screen that…you are going to be doing a lot of head turning.
> sometimes a sceen is just too wide…



Like this?


----------



## UntilThen

From the far corners of Czechoslovakia comes these Tesla EL81 and the big question is how will it transform Oblivion? Notice that 3 tubes are in Yellow letters and one is in White.  These cost me 14.52 pounds. Cheap cheap.


----------



## leftside

Galapac said:


> Unless you split screen that…you are going to be doing a lot of head turning.
> sometimes a sceen is just too wide…


I have one. Splitting the screen is indeed what I do. Simply use Windows PowerToys/Fancy Windows - great for software development. Better than two separate monitors.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> I have one. Splitting the screen is indeed what I do. Simply use Windows PowerToys/Fancy Windows - great for software development. Better than two separate monitors.



Is your amp finished yet? I want to see it.


----------



## UntilThen

Tesla EL81 impressed from the get go. In-cre-di-ble.


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> I might be getting the tube in 2023.
> 
> Sydney news: Deadline looms for health workers to get jab; deliveries impacted after FedEx mass walk off​


Actually mine shipment is DHL.. 🙂


----------



## Galapac

leftside said:


> I have one. Splitting the screen is indeed what I do. Simply use Windows PowerToys/Fancy Windows - great for software development. Better than two separate monitors.


I agree. I used to try video games on the ultra wide but it was too much and I couldn't back up far enough to take it all in. It was like watching a movie in a theater in the front row.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Actually mine shipment is DHL.. 🙂


That's good news then.


----------



## UntilThen

Getting up at almost 3am, music has a vividness at the dead of night. It's like I hear a lot more. Oblivion sparkle with the Tesla tubes. Going from Mullard to Tesla is a marked improvement in dynamics and improvement in bass impact. Certainly clearer.

However switching over to Odyssey, the sparkle goes up a notch and what a difference a notch makes. An already great tone is now godly. The Berlin tubes are back in Odyssey and they are outstanding, standing head and shoulders with all the other NOS tubes. I still can't draw a definitive conclusion on the best power tube aside from the EL156 which is just a bit more special. This extra sparkle in Odyssey is what makes it 'better' than Destiny and Oblivion. It must be in the dang Sowter irons.

Listening to music with Hekse on Odyssey is heavenly.


----------



## UntilThen

The irony of it all. I was so eager to test out the Tesla EL81 in Oblivion and make no mistake, the difference is very telling. These Tesla EL81 tubes should be standard issues in any Oblivion. However I have not heard the Mazda 6RD6 yet and they are Max's favourite.  

This is where the irony is. I was so enjoying Oblivion with the Tesla tubes with both headphones - Hekse and LCD4. Then I switch to Odyssey and I could be blindfolded and I would know for sure that the amplification from Odyssey is just on another level. Just as I said. A great tone made even better going from Oblivion to Odyssey.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> Is your amp finished yet? I want to see it.


It's coming. It won't be big and beastly like our other amps. Small and compact for this one.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> It's coming. It won't be big and beastly like our other amps. Small and compact for this one.


Can't see how it will be small and compact with those Sowter irons.


----------



## UntilThen

What happens when you combine Mazda 6DR6 with Tesla EL81? Well you get Martell Cordon Bleu. 

Mazda + Tesla = Martell.

And it does fire up ! Can hear the change in tone even limping on 3 x Mazda 6DR6. Will summarise my findings on change of tubes in Oblivion after I have some time with them. Initial impressions are good and contrary to my expectation of no change in tone with tube rolling on Oblivion... well the good news is there are changes. All thanks to Maxx who has preselected these tubes so I don't have to cover a mountain of tubes.  

As you can see in the picture, I'm running on 3 x Mazda 6DR6 and 1 x Tesla EL81.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> What happens when you combine Mazda 6DR6 with Tesla EL81? Well you get Martell Cordon Bleu.
> 
> Mazda + Tesla = Martell.
> 
> ...


Not on the Nikka?…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Not on the Nikka?…



Hell noooo not the Nikkas. Those will be preserved till 2099.   Still have the unfinished Wild Turkey.... that will be consumed this Labour Day long weekend.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> Can't see how it will be small and compact with those Sowter irons.


I guess it's all relative. It will definitely be smaller than your amps and my Glenn 300B and 1101 Audio V6 Thunder.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> I guess it's all relative. It will definitely be smaller than your amps and my Glenn 300B and 1101 Audio V6 Thunder.


Physically Odyssey isn't that big but it is heavy at the back !!! I would really like to know how heavy this amp is but I know it's heavy when I carry it.


----------



## baronbeehive (Oct 2, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Hell noooo not the Nikkas. Those will be preserved till 2099.   Still have the unfinished Wild Turkey.... that will be consumed this Labour Day long weekend. *Immediately*



FTFY.

So what's wrong with the Chinese/Japanese scotch? Can't you read the instructions on the front to open the bottle 🤣.

Edit: @UntilThen  BTW I've just finished that LONG, 5hr blues video, not as bad as some at 8hrs! Some very nice stuff there that I haven't heard of.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> FTFY.
> 
> So what's wrong with the Chinese/Japanese scotch? Can't you read the instructions on the front to open the bottle 🤣.
> 
> Edit: @UntilThen  BTW I've just finished that LONG, 5hr blues video, not as bad as some at 8hrs! Some very nice stuff there that I haven't heard of.



Good, I've a lot of music to tap into tonight. 2 amps and 2 headphones, that's the usual listening session.  Those Japanese whisky are special edition so I'm just keeping them.


----------



## SonicTrance

Here's another Oblivion ready to go!





Next up is a special type Oblivion with different tubes and low profile!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Good, I've a lot of music to tap into tonight. 2 amps and 2 headphones, that's the usual listening session.  Those Japanese whisky are special edition so I'm just keeping them.


Thanks for asking if I'm ok after listening to all those blues, I might need some of your whisky after all that


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> Here's another Oblivion ready to go!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sweet!!!


----------



## TheMiddleSky

UntilThen said:


> What happens when you combine Mazda 6DR6 with Tesla EL81? Well you get Martell Cordon Bleu.
> 
> Mazda + Tesla = Martell.
> 
> ...



Oh Gosh, Martell (both Cordon Bleu and Red Barrel) are always my favourite when we talk about any spirit (only eclipse by Yamazaki 18, but this one is way more expensive)



SonicTrance said:


> Here's another Oblivion ready to go!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Look as sweet as ever!


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> Here's another Oblivion ready to go!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You've got a very efficient assembly line going Sonic .


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Here's another Oblivion ready to go!



I'm glad to see more Oblivions in production. It's still an undiscovered gem and drives my planars beautifully. This could be the only headphone amp you need unless you're UntilThen. It's quiet, it's not hot to the touch after hours of operation, clear, precise, sweet treble and let the amp go 100 hours and the bass matures. Soundstage is exemplary. Price wise it's very reasonable for what it does. 

Congrats to the one getting this amp. To my surprise, there's results with tube rolling. Or just stay with a set of tubes and enjoy, just as I have for 1.5 years.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> Oh Gosh, Martell (both Cordon Bleu and Red Barrel) are always my favourite when we talk about any spirit (only eclipse by Yamazaki 18, but this one is way more expensive)



Yamazaki 18 is $1834.99 a bottle.   I'll go and buy a Cordon Bleu and drink instead.


----------



## UntilThen

Gone back to the Tesla EL81 with Dario Miniwatt 6av6. Wow. Those Tesla are something. Elon Musk?   Seriously though these power tubes are grea8 ! Clear, full texture body and a look at me bass. This is where Oblivion closes the gap with Odyssey.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Yamazaki 18 is $1834.99 a bottle.   I'll go and buy a Cordon Bleu and drink instead.


But Yamazaki is what you drink when you're listening to an amp with Yamamoto sockets.  Didn't you know that? 

And why are you drinking chicken? Is that an Aussie thing?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> But Yamazaki is what you drink when you're listening to an amp with Yamamoto sockets. Didn't you know that?
> 
> And why are you drinking chicken? Is that an Aussie thing?



I'm going to have to sell some tubes to buy that Yamazaki and you're right, it goes well with Yamamoto.

Cordon Bleu Martell and chicken it is then for tonight's dinner.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> *I'm going to have to sell some tubes to buy that Yamazaki* and you're right, it goes well with Yamamoto.
> 
> Cordon Bleu Martell and chicken it is then for tonight's dinner.


If you just cut my salary again I'll effectively end up paying you, so perhaps that will help?


----------



## UntilThen

Tomas can I use this for my Oblivion?  Tesla 6av6.  

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/143640459997?hash=item2171a37add:g:MIYAAOSw5cNYhf72


----------



## UntilThen

I have become a rolling stones now with Oblivion. It's all Max's fault. Just bought these Marconi and Tesla 6av6 drivers.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Next up is a special type Oblivion with different tubes and low profile!



Now I'm very curious. Do tell.


----------



## Maxx134

SonicTrance said:


> Here's another Oblivion ready to go!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dammit that new look is so sweet, wow 👍




UntilThen said:


> Tomas can I use this for my Oblivion?  Tesla 6av6.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/143640459997?hash=item2171a37add:g:MIYAAOSw5cNYhf72



It will be interesting to see how those Tesla affect the driver stage. 👍


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> It will be interesting to see how those Tesla affect the driver stage. 👍



Yes I'm curious too because the Tesla sure affects the power stage. I'm also very curious about the Marconi 6av6 too. There's a pair of Tung Sol but I think that's enough.


----------



## UntilThen

Oct 3rd 2021 @ 11:05am I gave my thump of approval to the Tesla EL81 and to Oblivion. A song came on and it's one of those moment that left me 'moved'. Was wearing the He1000se by the way and not a helmet.

I've no idea how many hours I've put into Oblivion. Not that many is my guess because I've many tube amps to alternate. However lately it's been chalking up the hours. This amp definitely changes in tone when it's properly stabilised. As any amp does. Tone is very good now. Smooth, powerful and soaring. You know like a bird soaring. I've always been amazed when Oblivion is paired with the HiFiMan and I've no doubt it will sound great with Susvara.


----------



## UntilThen

The 4th Mazda is here ..... all the way across the oceans from Maxx. You have no idea my joy.


----------



## UntilThen

Cheers while I try to make head or tail out of the Mazda. Start drinking at 2:25pm and I should be sober by midnight.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Cheers while I try to make head or tail out of the Mazda. Start drinking at 2:25pm and I should be sober by midnight.


I am glad that you put the Mazda in the socket before you put the libation in your skull…PS, the tail end of the tube has pins…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> I am glad that you put the Mazda in the socket before you put the libation in your skull…PS, the tail end of the tube has pins…



Dang right ! Inserting the Mazda before drinks was difficult. After drinks it will be impossible. Anyhoo I have till midnight to finish the Wild Turkey while I go through every single sopranos on the planet !


----------



## UntilThen

Manage to change the drivers to Mazda. So it's Mazda 6av6 and Mazda 6dr6 tube combination. I think Mazda is a French tube company. Going to get @gibosi to help me here by giving a background to Mazda tube history. 

This combination could be the Chosen One.  Really good !


----------



## UntilThen

6AV6 has a gain (mu) of 100. 6AT6 has a gain of 70.

6AV6 are use drivers in Oblivion with speakers output.

6AT6 are use as drivers in Oblivion without speakers output.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> But Yamazaki is what you drink when you're listening to an amp with Yamamoto sockets.  Didn't you know that?
> 
> And why are you drinking chicken? Is that an Aussie thing?


At that price I would have thought they could have thrown in the Yamazaki for free .


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> I am glad that you put the Mazda in the socket before you put the libation in your skull…PS, the tail end of the tube has pins…


Just as well you mentioned that they were probably getting a little fuzzy by midnight   .


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Tomas can I use this for my Oblivion?  Tesla 6av6.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/143640459997?hash=item2171a37add:g:MIYAAOSw5cNYhf72


Sure, you can use any 6AV6.



UntilThen said:


> 6AV6 has a gain (mu) of 100. 6AT6 has a gain of 70.
> 
> 6AV6 are use drivers in Oblivion with speakers output.
> 
> 6AT6 are use as drivers in Oblivion without speakers output.


This is true. However, I'll most likely stop using the 6AV6 and just use the 6AT6 from now on. Reason is I got around 50 pcs NOS 6AV6's that are not usable in my amps as they act like antennas for hum pickup!
They might work if I redesign the input stage but I'm not doing that to accommodate these tubes. 6AT6 is still fine with speaker output, just have to turn the volume knob some more.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> This is true. However, I'll most likely stop using the 6AV6 and just use the 6AT6 from now on. Reason is I got around 50 pcs NOS 6AV6's that are not usable in my amps as they act like antennas for hum pickup!
> They might work if I redesign the input stage but I'm not doing that to accommodate these tubes. 6AT6 is still fine with speaker output, just have to turn the volume knob some more.



That's unfortunate because in my setup, Oblivion is the quietest amp I've come across. As you can see, Oblivion is right next to the phone and router and yet it does not pick up anything. Dead silence. I have 4 pairs of 6av6 of various brands now and they are all dead quiet.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> That's unfortunate because in my setup, Oblivion is the quietest amp I've come across. As you can see, Oblivion is right next to the phone and router and yet it does not pick up anything. Dead silence. I have 4 pairs of 6av6 of various brands now and they are all dead quiet.


Yup, unfortunate indeed.


----------



## Maxx134 (Oct 3, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> There's a pair of Tung Sol but I think that's enough.


Noooooo....
It's never enough sometimes 😅
Anyways I bought a new round of driver tubes to sort out 👍



SonicTrance said:


> 6AT6 is still fine with speaker output, just have to turn the volume knob some more



I think it's not a bad trade off, because I noticed alot more 6at6 than 6av6 availability.

The one thing I have posted about this amp (long ago) is that the volume knob has clean output even past 3/4 of the dial, without strain like other amps (when tested with the susvara).

Actually that's the only way I could test amps at higher volume limits. Only with the susvara.
MANY other expensive amps from other companies failed at higher volumes with the Susvara.
They all sounded nice at low volumes.
I used the susvara once on 4 other amps at a canjam for output limits testing.
Anyways, the Oblivion actually held up well, as I posted way, way in beginning thread, and it's the first amp I heard to make the Abyss sound livelier than normal. I am assuming it was because of the transients or voltage, but it was an eye-opener.


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> Manage to change the drivers to Mazda. So it's Mazda 6av6 and Mazda 6dr6 tube combination. I think Mazda is a French tube company. Going to get @gibosi to help me here by giving a background to Mazda tube history.
> 
> This combination could be the Chosen One.  Really good !


I actually never tried Mazda for driver tubes... Aaa, I feel another purchase coming on...


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> I actually never tried Mazda for driver tubes... Aaa, I feel another purchase coming on...


Haha, you should set up a tube exchange with UT 🥴👍.


----------



## xfusion

I am enjoying my Oblivion , it is such a soul booster for my existing system.🤩


----------



## baronbeehive

xfusion said:


> I am enjoying my Oblivion , it is such a soul booster for my existing system.🤩


Some people have all the luck, keep enjoying 👍.


----------



## Maxx134

xfusion said:


> I am enjoying my Oblivion , it is such a soul booster for my existing system.🤩


Oh, I see in your avatar, you have the sweeter newer design layout, nice 🙂


----------



## Maxx134

Updated second post with the updated Oblivion pics. 👍


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Noooooo....
> It's never enough sometimes 😅
> Anyways I bought a new round of driver tubes to sort out 👍



I'm starting to have tubes coming out of my ears. 



Maxx134 said:


> I think it's not a bad trade off, because I noticed alot more 6at6 than 6av6 availability.



I agree. I have no competitors for 6av6 tubes now.   



Maxx134 said:


> I actually never tried Mazda for driver tubes... Aaa, I feel another purchase coming on...



The Mazda combination in Oblivion now is incredible. I should have bought a Mazda instead of a Honda.



xfusion said:


> I am enjoying my Oblivion , it is such a soul booster for my existing system.🤩



Me too.  3:48am and I have Odyssey and Oblivion powered on. Sometimes I forget which amp I'm plug in with my He1000se and then that moment in the song came on and I go... Wow that is really good. Turning around I noticed that I'm plugged in to Oblivion.

If I told you that there's a 80% resemblance in the tone of Odyssey and Oblivion, you wouldn't believe me. Odyssey has the Tung Sol 6550 in it now. This is a jewel of the Nile. It's that good. Oblivion has the Mazda combination and it's keeping up. The amps are sounding really sweet now with He1000se.


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> Oblivion has the Mazda combination and it's keeping up. The amps are sounding really sweet now with He1000se.


Yes... Literally "sweet & delicate" is the sound attribute I would give the Oblivion with the Mazda on outputs.


----------



## UntilThen

UntilThen said:


> Thanks for this most informative discourse on tubes. I think my days of tube rolling are over. The RCA 6AV6 and Siemens EL81 that Sonic send me sounds perfect. I've no inclination to swap to a different brand of the same type.



Can't believe I said this to Mr Curwen on the 27th Dec 2019, 4 days after I got Oblivion. It took me until now to start tube rolling in Oblivion. If not for Maxx prodding I wouldn't have tube roll in Oblivion but drivers and power tubes change have definitely alter the tone. It's easier for me to pick up the change because I'm so used to Oblivion with the stock tubes of RCA 6AV6 and Siemens EL81.


----------



## xfusion

baronbeehive said:


> Some people have all the luck, keep enjoying 👍.


Thank you! I admire Chord Hugo TT2 as DAC/Amp combo, it sounds perfect by itself. Nevertheless, Oblivion manages to add some soul to it. Happiness!


Maxx134 said:


> Oh, I see in your avatar, you have the sweeter newer design layout, nice 🙂


Yes. And the chrome knob. The new layout should make it easier for tube rolling I guess.


UntilThen said:


> Can't believe I said this to Mr Curwen on the 27th Dec 2019, 4 days after I got Oblivion. It took me until now to start tube rolling in Oblivion. If not for Maxx prodding I wouldn't have tube roll in Oblivion but drivers and power tubes change have definitely alter the tone. It's easier for me to pick up the change because I'm so used to Oblivion with the stock tubes of RCA 6AV6 and Siemens EL81.


Luckily I don't have to wait that long for me to start tube rolling the Oblivion. I cannot wait for those tubes to arrive! Your previous post made me curious how much of a difference it makes.


----------



## Maxx134

xfusion said:


> I cannot wait for those tubes to arrive!


Which tubes are you getting? 🙂


----------



## xfusion

Maxx134 said:


> Which tubes are you getting? 🙂



Well,
Both 6AT6 and 6DR6 Mazda
6AT6 Marconi, Miniwatt, Sylvania
EL81 Tesla, Mullard.

Any other suggestion @Maxx134 ?


----------



## xfusion

Should I get some GE 6AT6 and Tung Sol 6AT6?

Which tube that gives more of differences, is it the 6AT6 inputs or the EL81 outputs ?


----------



## UntilThen

xfusion said:


> GE 6AT6



That's a Bcowen exclusive.


----------



## UntilThen

I roll both driver and power tubes together so I cannot really tell which has more influence to the change in tone. 

Mullard, Tesla and Mazda EL81 all sounded more 'full' compared to the Siemens EL81. It's going to take me a while because I'm just such a casual listener now. That means I listen to enjoy the music and not in a analysis mode.  

I do hear a difference though and definitely for the better. I'll let the tubes burn in.... more.


----------



## UntilThen

As an experiment I try to get the volume knob turn up as far as I can go without bursting my ear drums.... with the LCD4. Input is 2v on the Yggdrasil. 

Max I can go is to 12 noon. At this volume setting, the LCD4 sound like speakers !   Oh impedance switch is set to high and speakers turn off.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> As an experiment I try to get the volume knob turn up as far as I can go without bursting my ear drums.... with the LCD4. Input is 2v on the Yggdrasil.
> 
> Max I can go is to 12 noon. At this volume setting, the LCD4 sound like speakers !   Oh impedance switch is set to high and speakers turn off.


Is the connection from Yggy to the amp balanced or SE?


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Is the connection from Yggy to the amp balanced or SE?


 Right now here in Sydney it's Se. Back in Canberra I was using the xlr cable. Yggy will sound 'better' in xlr and it will be louder.


----------



## UntilThen

Turn up the amplification on Odyssey into He1000se or LCD4 and those headphones will turn into outrageous beasts. My brain is electrified.  Yup I'm a believer in moar power and headroom !  Just don't destroy those irreplaceable ears.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Right now here in Sydney it's Se. Back in Canberra I was using the xlr cable. Yggy will sound 'better' in xlr and it will be louder.


The output from Yggy via balanced / XLR cable should be 4V.


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> The output from Yggy via balanced / XLR cable should be 4V.



That explains why it's louder.


----------



## UntilThen

Which leads me to this post from MrCurwen when he talks about amp power and transients. 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/post-15382416


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> The output from Yggy via balanced / XLR cable should be 4V.



Correct. Balanced is 4v and RCA is 2v from Yggy. This will influence gain.


----------



## SonicTrance

xfusion said:


> Should I get some GE 6AT6 and Tung Sol 6AT6?
> 
> Which tube that gives more of differences, is it the 6AT6 inputs or the EL81 outputs ?


The 6AT6 tubes will give greater difference in sound than the EL81's, unless the EL81's you replace with have grossly different curves than the stock tubes.



UntilThen said:


> Correct. Balanced is 4v and RCA is 2v from Yggy. This will influence gain.


In Citadel it would affect gain as it has a balanced input stage. Oblivions input stage is SE so the input from yggy is still 2V / channel as one phase is floating.
If you get more gain from yggy XLR than RCA it's something else going on.


----------



## Maxx134 (Oct 5, 2021)

xfusion said:


> Well,
> Both 6AT6 and 6DR6 Mazda
> 6AT6 Marconi, Miniwatt, Sylvania
> EL81 Tesla, Mullard.
> ...


You seem to have covered all the good ones!
I personally prefer the Mullard so far, over the others  (few) I tried:
Tung-sol
Philco
Tungsram/seimens (stock)
Sylvania
Zenith
CBS
And maybe one more I forgot.

I also found that the driver tubes displayed a varied sense of immediacy and energy...
Here is my observations:


**-mullards 6at6, my favorites, as the amp is most vivid and alive with those tubes over these few others.
It seems to add some harmonics which enchance liveliness.

**My second fav is tung-sol 6at6, which gave me great bottom end punch and nice even clarity and stage.

**My third fav was my philco 6at6, which were lively and balanced
***The CBS were similar

**The stock Siemens/Tungsram tubes were actually very good, striking a balance of relaxed delicate detailing, and one of largest soundstage.

**The Sylvana 6at6 I tried was most neutral and nice trebles, but a bit leaner on bottom range, while also being less energetic than the rest.

**The zenith 6at6 came in dead last, which was odd, as it was so dull, as probably needing burn in or maybe worn/used. It also sounded lean, and least lively.

So that's it.  Since my Mullard imparted most "flavor" (in the driver stage),  I stopped there and didn't try more for a year (2020), until now!
So now, I just ordered these to try:
Mazda EBC90
Marconi 6at6
RCA 6at6
Tungsram EBC90
Haltron 6at6
Fivre 6at6
Brimar 6at6
Philips/Miniwatt 6at6
Ferrowatt EBC90

All to see if they can beat the Mullard (for me) in the driver stage.
Wew, I think that covers it for the driver stage.


For the output stage, the difference were not in tonality, but in presentation. In good tubes (seimens vs tesla) was like slapping your hand against a big tree (solid Seimens) , and slapping your hand against a contrete building (even more solid Tesla).
The "solidity" of timbre, tonality, and location cues, was the attributes of the output tubes, to me..
BUT then came the Mazda, and that one added more dimensionality and delicacy (!).
They became my favorites, over the Tesla, which were utterly fantastic and most powerful sounding.

I also tried some mullard EL81 in output stage, and was actually fooled because they were actually nice and  lively, but then actually gave me a negative feeling of sloppiness after a while(!).. I am not sure if maybe a reason would be if the tubes were old.

So although I am most happy with the Mazda & Tesla, I decided to try one more output tube:
Amperex Bugle Boy EL81😗🙃
Couldn't resist yet another purchase.
I'm thinking should be similar to the Mullard.
DAmm tube rolling addiction.😛

Also, about the Mazda.
I have four (date?) types!
The designation in middle:
 IV-0, and the XI-9, and XII-9 have all same looking construction inside glass, but I have one that is a VI-3 which seems to have one small difference in the top silver part not solid:




🧐🤔😯
Maybe older?




xfusion said:


> 6AT6   GE


The GE brand I have never been a fan of with, when using other tube types.
So not sure how it would hold up.a
Probably neutral and in first group.
Maybe I would try but not interested.
Much too much better types to try. 🙂


----------



## xfusion

Nice and detailed information here, waow.

Since nobody has tried the 6AT6 GE, mine is coming in the next few days. I will let you know here.

Mullard EL81 tubes have arrived today! 

That Amperex Bugle Boy EL81 definitely is on my wish list!


----------



## Maxx134

xfusion said:


> Mullard EL81 tubes have arrived today!



Would be interesting to compare tubes construction to see if mine are old.
Mine had old/dirty looking white parts inside:



I thinking mine were used (not NOS).
😛


----------



## UntilThen

You guys are on a roll here. I've been busy at work.


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> DAmm tube rolling addiction.😛


Hehe .


Maxx134 said:


> I also found that the driver tubes displayed a varied sense of immediacy and energy...
> Here is my observations:
> 
> 
> ...


It strikes me that your observations could also be generalized for these tubes as that is exactly what I've found for 6SN7, 12AX7 and the like in my (other) amps. The Siemens/Tungsram I haven't tried but according to what you said seem similar to Mazdas, although they are more delicate sounding. This is backed up by tube reviews on some sites. My point is that tubes do seem to have general characteristics which are true across tube types for a particular brand. If this were true it could potentially save tube roller thousands of dollars/pounds because they would know in advance what a particular tube might sound like. *BUT unfortunately* there are variations in sound depending on tube construction, for example the BGRP Tungsol and the flat plate Tungsol which throws a spanner in the works .


Maxx134 said:


> I also tried some mullard EL81 in output stage, and was actually fooled because they were actually nice and  lively, but then actually gave me a negative feeling of sloppiness after a while(!).. I am not sure if maybe a reason would be if the tubes were old.


Yes I think that Mullards can lose a bit of that fantastic detail by becoming too over warm sounding if they are not at their best.



Maxx134 said:


> So although I am most happy with the Mazda & Tesla, I decided to try one more output tube:
> Amperex Bugle Boy EL81😗🙃
> Couldn't resist yet another purchase.
> I'm thinking should be similar to the Mullard.
> DAmm tube rolling addiction.😛


I have these, EL84, on my baby amp and they are not like Mullards, they are much clearer and brighter sounding not full and warm like Mullards.


Maxx134 said:


> The GE brand I have never been a fan of with, when using other tube types.
> So not sure how it would hold up.a
> Probably neutral and in first group.
> Maybe I would try but not interested.
> Much too much better types to try. 🙂


No, exactly. Again in my other amp, they are neutral, great clarity but somewhat boring and one dimensional without much harmonics, steer clear of them LOL 👍.

Those are my observations for what they are worth in my, not Sonics', amps


----------



## xfusion

Maxx134 said:


> You seem to have covered all the good ones!


Thanks to @UntilThen for his recommendations.

Mine has yellow markings with different wordings on it. The white part is not that white but it looks cleaner than yours.

How do we know in what year these tubes are manufactured?


----------



## baronbeehive

xfusion said:


> Thanks to @UntilThen for his recommendations.
> 
> Mine has yellow markings with different wordings on it. The white part is not that white but it looks cleaner than yours.
> 
> How do we know in what year these tubes are manufactured?


Have the tubes got any markings or letters on the glass?


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Have the tubes got any markings or letters on the glass?



Yes if you can decipher what they are.


----------



## UntilThen

The markings on Tesla EL81.


----------



## Maxx134

xfusion said:


> Thanks to @UntilThen for his recommendations.
> 
> Mine has yellow markings with different wordings on it. The white part is not that white but it looks cleaner than yours.
> 
> How do we know in what year these tubes are manufactured?


Yes, that seems to verify that my tubes were old and wasted. I believe yous are newer dating than mine and also member @UntilThen  has. 
They look beautiful and mint and definitely Mullard from the internal construction. 👍


----------



## baronbeehive (Oct 5, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Yes if you can decipher what they are.


Easy, Mullard Blackburn, 1960, or probably 1970, September!

I can't see the bottom letters from the other 2 tubes.

If you want to try this look at this webpage: https://mullard.org/blogs/news/mullard-valve-etched-codes-how-to-interpret-them

Edit: A bit envious those EL81's seem a lot cheaper than EL84 which are the ones I use


----------



## baronbeehive (Oct 5, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> The markings on Tesla EL81.


NE, 1972, June
SP, 1976, Jan

Look here: https://tubes-store.com/article_info.php?articles_id=5

Edit: That would fit because the letters are very clear indicating a later date.


----------



## triod750

baronbeehive said:


> Edit: A bit envious those EL81's seem a lot cheaper than EL84 which are the ones I use


Wonderful tubes.


----------



## triod750

Here you have the complete Philips code list: https://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB.pdf


----------



## Maxx134

triod750 said:


> Here you have the complete Philips code list: https://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB.pdf


Wow this is excellent, thanks 👍


----------



## Maxx134

baronbeehive said:


> NE, 1972, June
> SP, 1976, Jan
> 
> Look here: https://tubes-store.com/article_info.php?articles_id=5
> ...


Another excelled source! Thanks👍


----------



## UntilThen

xfusion said:


> Thanks to @UntilThen for his recommendations.



My recommendations came from @Maxx134 .


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> My recommendations came from @Maxx134 .


In case somebody wants to date Tungsram tubes; here is a date code sheet:
(However, I do not know if these codes apply to British Tungsram Radio Works tubes. My guess is that the sheet applies to Hungarian made tubes.)
https://www.hobbielektronika.hu/forum/getfile.php?id=295616


----------



## xfusion

baronbeehive said:


> If you want to try this look at this webpage: https://mullard.org/blogs/news/mullard-valve-etched-codes-how-to-interpret-them


Thank you!! Mine is B4I3 which indicates Blackburn Mullard 1954 September 3rd week. Correct?


baronbeehive said:


> No, exactly. Again in my other amp, they are neutral, great clarity but somewhat boring and one dimensional without much harmonics, steer clear of them LOL 👍.


I received my 6AT6 GE and tried it and this description is very accurate. In compare to the original 6AT6 Marche?? , the GE is the brighter and clearer one that makes it abit more boring because it lacks harmonic and richness of the original tube. The soundstage is also noticeably smaller. If you value clarity you might want to use this GE, or get a Solid State amplifier instead 😁😁

Tommorow will be the EL81 Mullard with both 6AT6.


----------



## baronbeehive (Oct 6, 2021)

xfusion said:


> Thank you!! Mine is B4I3 which indicates Blackburn Mullard 1954 September 3rd week. Correct?


Close...  it should be 1964 or 1974 because it is a 4 digit code not a 3 digit code 👍.


xfusion said:


> I received my 6AT6 GE and tried it and this description is very accurate. In compare to the original 6AT6 Marche?? , the GE is the brighter and clearer one that makes it abit more boring because it lacks harmonic and richness of the original tube. The soundstage is also noticeably smaller. If you value clarity you might want to use this GE, or get a Solid State amplifier instead 😁😁


Haha, yes you're right about the GE! Should be better tomorrow with the Mullard... *much *better 🥳.

Edit: I've never seen plates like that on the GE before!


----------



## Maxx134

xfusion said:


> I received my 6AT6 GE and tried it and this description is very accurate


Good. Now you can take them, and throw them hard against a concrete wall...
That's what you do with tubes that aren't up to par. That way you do a favor to not pass onto the next guy.😝🤪


----------



## Galapac

Maxx134 said:


> Good. Now you can take them, and throw them hard against a concrete wall...
> That's what you do with tubes that aren't up to par. That way you do a favor to not pass onto the next guy.😝🤪


Down south we have a better way...target practice!


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> Good. Now you can take them, and throw them hard against a concrete wall...
> That's what you do with tubes that aren't up to par. That way you do a favor to not pass onto the next guy.😝🤪


Yes I'm fed up with ending up with all those GE's


----------



## mordy

Galapac said:


> Down south we have a better way...target practice!


I remember reading an article from one of the writers in Stereophile where somebody collected old horn speaker systems and the workers practiced target practice on used Western Electric 300B tubes....


----------



## jonathan c (Oct 6, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> Yes I'm fed up with ending up with all those GE's


You mean that you did not pass them on…?….*G*one _*E*_ventually…


----------



## xfusion

baronbeehive said:


> Edit: I've never seen plates like that on the GE before!



Spot on! The getter in this tube placement is unusual and different than other 6AT6 GE tubes. Normally the getter is on top hence the burnt mark, but in my GE tubes the getter is on the side. Any explanation why is it differrent?


----------



## xfusion

Maxx134 said:


> **-mullards 6at6, my favorites, as the amp is most vivid and alive with those tubes over these few others.
> It seems to add some harmonics which enchance liveliness.



I tried the EL81 Mullard today combined together with the stock Cifte 6AT6 tubes that come with the amplifier. The full Mullard tubes comparison can't be done until I get my Mullard 6AT6. Interestingly enough @Maxx134 impression on the Mullard 6AT6 applies in here too, it improves the image to be more vivid and lifelike in compare to the stock Siemens EL81. The added, though very slightly, warmth and the harmonics are there but more in line to amplifcation of the Cifte 6AT6 sound signature with slightly smoother edge and sweeter tones that contributes to the lifelikeness improvement while retaining the Cifte's beautiful soundstage, ie wide and deep, but with a better image separation. The stock Siemens EL81 feels abit punchier and more "formal" in its presentation while the Mullard is abit more "relaxed" in comparison. In general I prefer and love the sound signature of this Mullard EL81 though the Siemens EL81 are pretty good too. Just my preference IMHO.



Maxx134 said:


> also tried some mullard EL81 in output stage, and was actually fooled because they were actually nice and lively, but then actually gave me a negative feeling of sloppiness after a while(!)


I did not experience this in my tubes though. Actually it gives a better control to the tone thus the image separation is better and more vivid and lifelike. The Siemens slightly feel abit more powerful, but can be abit "hard" in compare to the delicate sound of the Mullard EL81. 

So yes we can hear and "feel" the difference by just changing the EL81 tubes. 

PS: the difference is although noticeable but is very slightly to the stock tubes. I used the A B A B method meaning 4 times I changed from the stock tubes to the new tubes, maybe @Maxx134 and @baronbeehive can suggest me a better method? I did the first impression after the tube first 15 minutes, then let it warm after 1 hour and did the impression again, but will update again after 50 and 100 hours burn in to see if there is any changes or not.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> You mean that you did not pass them on…?….*G*one _*E*_ventually…


In fact I only have 2 12SL7! Even though they were so cheap to buy I don't think I will get my money back if I try to sell them, the postage means I will end up *having to pay more to sell them* than what I get back . So I will just have to keep them, you never know, might come in handy if any of my Tungsols gives up the ghost.


----------



## baronbeehive

xfusion said:


> I tried the EL81 Mullard today combined together with the stock Cifte 6AT6 tubes that come with the amplifier. The full Mullard tubes comparison can't be done until I get my Mullard 6AT6. Interestingly enough @Maxx134 impression on the Mullard 6AT6 applies in here too, it improves the image to be more vivid and lifelike in compare to the stock Siemens EL81. The added, though very slightly, warmth and the harmonics are there but more in line to amplifcation of the Cifte 6AT6 sound signature with slightly smoother edge and sweeter tones that contributes to the lifelikeness improvement while retaining the Cifte's beautiful soundstage, ie wide and deep, but with a better image separation. The stock Siemens EL81 feels abit punchier and more "formal" in its presentation while the Mullard is abit more "relaxed" in comparison. In general I prefer and love the sound signature of this Mullard EL81 though the Siemens EL81 are pretty good too. Just my preference IMHO.
> 
> 
> I did not experience this in my tubes though. Actually it gives a better control to the tone thus the image separation is better and more vivid and lifelike. The Siemens slightly feel abit more powerful, but can be abit "hard" in compare to the delicate sound of the Mullard EL81.
> ...


Not really, I usually rely on first impressions. The only thing with this amp where the changes might not be so much as in, say the Odyssey, would be to do the test blind, ie. mix the tubes up and only look *after* you have done the impressions to guard against any false expectations you may have.

I think Maxx  has a different method 👍.


----------



## UntilThen

xfusion said:


> The stock Siemens EL81 feels abit punchier and more "formal" in its presentation while the Mullard is abit more "relaxed" in comparison.





xfusion said:


> The Siemens slightly feel abit more powerful, but can be abit "hard" in compare to the delicate sound of the Mullard EL81.



Been a busy week for me. Just taking some time to comment. You're not alone in hearing that. I come away with the same impressions.



baronbeehive said:


> Not really, I usually rely on first impressions. The only thing with this amp where the changes might not be so much as in, say the Odyssey



First impressions are important as far as I'm concerned. Having tube roll in Odyssey and Oblivion, I must say it surprise me that I hear changes when swapping the EL81 power tubes as well as the 6av6 driver tubes. Changes not in soundstage or clarity but in tone and texture. The stock Siemens EL81 is lean and tight. Lovely if you like that and we all do at times. Mullard EL81 introduce more body and density to the tone. Tesla EL81 is again clearer but with more body than Siemens and the bass is pretty good. Mazda 6DR6 is a strange one. It's a great tone. I just can't find the words to describe it yet. Just know that I like it a lot.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Been a *busy week* for me. Just taking some time to comment. You're not alone in hearing that. I come away with the same impressions.


... retrieving golf balls no doubt 👍.


UntilThen said:


> Mazda 6DR6 is a strange one. It's a great tone. I just *can't find the words to describe* it yet. Just know that I like it a lot.


Delicate?


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Delicate?


Not exactly delicate. If I handle a porcelain china I will call it delicate or if I execute a one metre putt, I will execute it delicately.

Mazda 6dr6 is not just delicate. It will do the par 5 just as well as it does the par 3. In other words it’s got the drive !

It has got the French mayonnaise.


----------



## UntilThen

I've been living with Destiny for 5 days and when I plug in Odyssey this morning for the start of the weekend, it's a omg moment. This is a friggin' awesome sounding amp. Odyssey that is.  Destiny has the deep deep bass with LCD4 but Odyssey has just about everything else. It covers the whole FR like a champ.


----------



## xfusion (Oct 9, 2021)

The Mazda 6DR6 tubes are here already. What a contrast to the Mullard!! Together with the Cifte 6AT6, which I believe contributes a lot in the tonality richness and soundstage, the Mazda 6DR6 presents them in different manner than the Mullard. I don't think delicate is the word to describe the Mazda. Delicate is for the Mullard since they are relax, buttery smooth, romantic, due to its high frequency presentation which somehow "candle light" or incadescent bulb bright, together with seductive vocals/midrange and all presented in a British polite manner. The Mazda on the other hand, the high frequency presentation is like a sparkling crystal powder, it has some sparkle of micro dust crystals, bright but not harsh, it has some bites but it does not cut you, which is something that cannot be said to Mullard. And the vocals/midrange is like a one fine day in a Paris garden during the spring time. Its naturally bright and airy. Which one that I like? Both Mullard and Mazda are different, but both are nice and capable! I would take the Mullard if I want to listen to live recording. I would take the Siemens for critical listening. But for now, I will have the Mazda for my everyday casual listening.

I guess any review should be taken with a grain of salt because the input tubes definitely plays a role too. I want to retain the Cifte 6AT6 in my tubes comparison, since they are rich in tonal and has a wide soundstage which makes me love the Oblivion at the first place for comparing the different output tubes. That is until the other 6AT6 tubes arrive though lol . Damn this tube rolling is very addictive!!

PS notes: I think @baronbeehive is right that certain brand retain some signature qualities. I am quite familiar with Mazda and Mullard especially their 6SN7 for quite sometimes and they share some sound signatures across different type of tubes they have.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Not exactly delicate. If I handle a porcelain china I will call it delicate or *if I execute a one metre putt*, I will execute it delicately.


Never 🤣.


UntilThen said:


> .. It will do the par 5 just as well as it does the par 3. In other words it’s got the drive !
> 
> It has got the French mayonnaise.


Yes, exactly!


----------



## baronbeehive

xfusion said:


> The Mazda 6DR6 tubes are here already. What a contrast to the Mullard!! Together with the Cifte 6AT6, which I believe contributes a lot in the tonality richness and soundstage, the Mazda 6DR6 presents them in different manner than the Mullard. I don't think delicate is the word to describe the Mazda. Delicate is for the Mullard since they are relax, buttery smooth, romantic, due to its high frequency presentation which somehow "candle light" or incadescent bulb bright, together with seductive vocals/midrange and all presented in a British polite manner. The Mazda on the other hand, the high frequency presentation is like a sparkling crystal powder, it has some sparkle of micro dust crystals, bright but not harsh, it has some bites but it does not cut you, which is something that cannot be said to Mullard. And the vocals/midrange is like a one fine day in a Paris garden during the spring time. Its naturally bright and airy. Which one that I like? Both Mullard and Mazda are different, but both are nice and capable! I would take the Mullard if I want to listen to live recording. I would take the Siemens for critical listening. But for now, I will have the Mazda for my everyday casual listening.


Exactly right! That was a wonderful review, far better than I managed and captured the Mazda perfectly, I found them difficult to describe the combination of lightness and floating quality, and bite also. 


xfusion said:


> all presented in a British polite manner.


Thanks, we do try, some of us at least👍.


----------



## baronbeehive

Anyone there? Or  has UT been abducted by aliens 👽.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> Anyone there? Or  has UT been abducted by aliens 👽.


Not abducted….retrieved….🤪….


----------



## UntilThen

I'm not here. I'm on an odyssey remember? An amazing one.


----------



## baronbeehive (Oct 11, 2021)

Phew! I thought you had gone on a space odyssey... 2001 A Space Odyssey!

... never to return from the gravitational fields of Jupiter.


----------



## baronbeehive (Oct 11, 2021)

... or maybe you're still trying to get that damn ball in the hole


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Not abducted….retrieved….🤪….


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> Phew! I thought you had gone on a space odyssey... 2001 A Space Odyssey!
> 
> ... never to return from the gravitational fields of Jupiter.


UT’s next amp is a monolith…


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> ... or maybe you're still trying to get that damn ball in the hole


Just use a 420 yard (384 metre) “gimme”!…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> UT’s next amp is a monolith…



I don't need more amps. What Odyssey is doing to He1000se is obscene. I don't subscribed to the view that the HiFiMan can be driven by any amp. It has to be driven by Odyssey to be truly driven. The sound you hear with this combination is surreal. 

Now to roll in Oblivion.... and I'm getting back my M51 dac.


----------



## UntilThen

Oblivion is on deck again... after a week. Wow it's always the same wow whenever I roll in Oblivion after a period of absence. He1000se sound really good.


----------



## UntilThen

13th Oct - it's been exactly 2 months since I have Odyssey and last night my son heard it for the first time with He1000se. Told me it's his kind of tube amp tone. Dynamic, tight and fast with good tube tone. Going full size headphone has been a bit of change for him as he has been living with Empire Ears Odin and Ibasso DX300 for the last few months.

Listening to music at this ungodly hour, I hear amazing details with this He1000se and Odyssey combination. Tubes are back to EL11 and EL12 spez - a superb combination.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> Just use a 420 yard (384 metre) “gimme”!…


That would do it 👍


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> UT’s next amp is a monolith… block


FTFY  🤣.


----------



## UntilThen

That will be the day if I get monoblocks for headphones.


----------



## baronbeehive

That Odyssey must be damn good.. or maybe UT has taken up surfing... 👍


----------



## Zachik

baronbeehive said:


> That Odyssey must be damn good.. or maybe UT has taken up surfing... 👍


... or 1 too many whiskey shots?


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> That Odyssey must be damn good.. or maybe UT has taken up surfing... 👍



Hello? Can't you see I'm very entertained in my journey? She can sing !


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Hello? Can't you see I'm very entertained in my journey? She can sing !


Good surfers do it on _top_ of the water.  

Or is that the down under variation?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Good surfers do it on _top_ of the water.
> 
> Or is that the down under variation?



Under water has better bass. Trust me.


----------



## UntilThen

It's the start of the weekend and I'm ready to rock and roll. See Oblivion still sport an all Mazda tube combination. I've not change the tubes in Odyssey for a week ! Now to spin some songs.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Under water has better bass. Trust me.


More liquid than solid state…


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Under water has better bass. Trust me.


Only if you play wave files...


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> More liquid than solid state…





LoryWiv said:


> Only if you play wave files...



Haha very witty. With the Mermaid I will play any files !


----------



## UntilThen

Goooood morning  A lovely beautiful start to Sat and I've got here with me my usual gear. LCD4 on Oblivion and He1000se on Odyssey and exploring the Beatles.

First up is George Harrison. Did you know that one time when George didn't turn up for the group practise sessions for several days, they were going to replace him with Eric Clapton? 

Anyway here's George Harrison taking centre stage in a group of distinguish musicians. He stood out ! There's no doubt he's special.

Year 1987 George Harrison: Voice & Guitar Eric Clapton: Guitar (a Les Paul) Jeff Lyne: Guitar Phil Collins: Drums Ringo Starr: Drums Ray Cooper: Percussion Mark King: Bass Elton John: Piano Jool Holland: Piano


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Goooood morning  A lovely beautiful start to Sat and I've got here with me my usual gear. LCD4 on Oblivion and He1000se on Odyssey and exploring the Beatles.
> 
> First up is George Harrison. Did you know that one time when George didn't turn up for the group practise sessions for several days, they were going to replace him with Eric Clapton?
> 
> ...



My favorite Beatle


----------



## UntilThen

George Harrison with Paul McCartney on Something in the way she moves. What an iconic performance. They take a simple song and make it magical. This is music !


----------



## UntilThen

They can all sing ! Ringo Starr ! They induct him into the Hall Of Fame 2015. Yoko Ono in the audience.


----------



## UntilThen

John Lennon. There are so many songs I could have played but somehow I play this song by John from the great Ben E King. There's something raw in the singing here that sends goosebumps up my spine. John's a legend. The world miss him.


----------



## UntilThen

There's a reason he's the lead singer of the Beatles because he's frigging good and this little snippets shows all the Beatles. Welcome to Sat 16th Oct 2021.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Goooood morning  A lovely beautiful start to Sat


It's still friday here!

Goood morning though 👍.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> It's still friday here!
> 
> Goood morning though 👍.



That's why you need to live downunder. You'll be ahead of time !


----------



## UntilThen

A friend came over to my place today and he is the 3rd person in the world to hear Odyssey. The 1st is me and the 2nd is my son. This friend brought his HD800 along and I've not heard my HD800 with Odyssey before because my son has the HD800. It's shockingly good. I want my HD800 back now. The resolution and bass is surprisingly awesome.  

Anyway this friend listen to Oblivion and like it but when he listen to Odyssey his eyes pop out.  Told me it's as dynamic as solid state but with amazing tube tone that is tight and controlled with fast transients. I know that already. I have been living with Odyssey for 2 months now and in my opinion Odyssey will compete with any tube amps regardless of price - in terms of sonic refinement, SQ and punch. Can't get any better than that.

Anyway this friend wants Tomas to build him an amp similar to Odyssey.  Over time, more will get to sample Odyssey.


----------



## triod750

Tomas builds him the amp and you give him your tubes. He is a friend, isn't he?


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> Tomas builds him the amp and you give him your tubes. He is a friend, isn't he?



That's where friendship ends.   He loves the Telefunken EL12 spez more than the Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base and EL12 spez are like jewel of the Nile to me. I wouldn't trade it for a Tesla electric car.

My friend also brought along an inexpensive Audio Technica ATH-R70x professional open back reference headphones - 99 dB and 470 ohms. Both HD800 and the R70x are ultra quiet on Odyssey. You couldn't even hear a pin drop with those headphones on Odyssey. This amp is so well built in terms of a pitch black background. The inexpensive R70x sounded incredible on Odyssey.

My friend is a classical music lover. He listens to nothing else but classical. When I talk about bass, I usually refer to kick drums but he would refer to cello and organs. Told me Odyssey is so revealing in the high frequencies and the weighty bass notes are astounding. It's good to have someone verify this for me.  

2 months out with Odyssey and I can't get enough of it. I spend too much time listening to music with this amp and my headphones and I wish I have more headphones to try with it.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> A friend came over to my place today and he is the 3rd person in the world to hear Odyssey.





UntilThen said:


> Anyway this friend wants Tomas to build him an amp similar to Odyssey.  Over time, more will get to sample Odyssey.


@UntilThen - you are patient zero, starting the spread of Odyssey in Australia!


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> @UntilThen - you are patient zero, starting the spread of Odyssey in Australia!



We're both double vaccinated and so is my family. NSW has just come out of lockdown and what a breath of fresh air. Music has not sounded so good.


----------



## UntilThen

On 2nd thought if you want to trade your Tesla with my pair of Telefunken EL12 spez, I'm open to negotiations. After all I'm a reasonable man. Take my EL12 spez and I'll have your Tesla. It's a fair trade !


----------



## Zachik

Zachik said:


> @UntilThen - you are patient zero, starting the spread of *Odyssey *in Australia!





UntilThen said:


> We're both double vaccinated and so is my family. NSW has just come out of lockdown and what a breath of fresh air. Music has not sounded so good.


I did not realize there is a vaccine for Odyssey


----------



## triod750

Zachik said:


> I did not realize there is a vaccine for Odyssey


I have already had two shots and am waiting for my third.


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> I did not realize there is a vaccine for Odyssey



With Odyssey, you need a shot every month. It's constantly evolving !

Anyway I'm excited for my friend who shall henceforth be known as Zero. Negotiations are underway and I think he's going for silver chassis similar to Odyssey but wider and with Lundahl transformers. Some changes to input tubes but I'll let Zero tell you when it's finished.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> With Odyssey, you need a shot every month. It's constantly evolving !


Sounds familiar...


----------



## xfusion

UntilThen said:


> think he's going for silver chassis similar to Odyssey but wider and with Lundahl transformers.


Lundahl transformer with pure silver double coil .. 🤩🤩😍😍😍


----------



## UntilThen

xfusion said:


> Lundahl transformer with pure silver double coil .. 🤩🤩😍😍😍



Don't know about that but it's with silver covers. This won't be like Odyssey where the transformers are naked but it will be covered. Neat and nice. However I like how Odyssey looks


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> On 2nd thought if you want to trade your Tesla with my pair of Telefunken EL12 spez, I'm open to negotiations. After all I'm a reasonable man. Take my EL12 spez and I'll have your Tesla. It's a fair trade !


You haven't got time to be thinking about that what with your Odyssey which is taking you far and wide 👍.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> My friend is a classical music lover. He listens to nothing else but classical. When I talk about bass, I usually refer to kick drums but he would refer to cello and organs. Told me Odyssey is so revealing in the high frequencies and the weighty bass notes are astounding. It's good to have someone verify this for me.
> 
> 2 months out with Odyssey and I can't get enough of it. I spend too much time listening to music with this amp and my headphones and I wish I have more headphones to try with it.


Thanks to your impressions we're getting a very good idea of what the Odyssey sound signature is like, I can almost imagine it now 🥳.


----------



## triod750

So in a foreseeable future there will be a serious comparison of two Odyssey amps by two serious listeners living close to each other. One high class version and one de luxe version. Most interesting. We will trust your report.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Thanks to your impressions we're getting a very good idea of what the Odyssey sound signature is like, I can almost imagine it now 🥳.



Describing Odyssey sound signature is like describing my perfect golf swing. It's impossible. You need to hear it for yourself. I remember just before Tomas send out Odyssey to me, I ask him to describe Odyssey sound signature to me. All he said was it's guaranteed to impress. 

Odyssey will make other amps sound less 3D. Odyssey notes are vivid and they stand out. It's not going to overwhelm you with bass. The whole FR is very balanced. Delicate songs will sound delicate and songs where bass are impactful will definitely have impact.


----------



## Maxx134 (Oct 17, 2021)

In case anyone looking for some 6dr6 Mazda for your Oblivion:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-6dr6-m...349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=1185-127638-7840-0

🙂

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6dr6-vacuu...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=709-127639-2357-0

🙂

I already have backup 😄


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> In case anyone looking for some 6dr6 Mazda for your Oblivion:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-6dr6-m...349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=1185-127638-7840-0
> 
> ...



When I am looking for it they are not there. Now they start to show up.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Describing Odyssey sound signature is like describing my perfect golf swing. It's impossible.


Yes, because your swing is *not* perfect... had to get in there before bcowen 😜.


UntilThen said:


> Describing Odyssey sound signature is like describing my perfect golf swing. It's impossible. You need to hear it for yourself. I remember just before Tomas send out Odyssey to me, I ask him to describe Odyssey sound signature to me. All he said was it's guaranteed to impress.
> 
> Odyssey will make other amps sound less 3D. Odyssey notes are vivid and they stand out. It's not going to overwhelm you with bass. The whole FR is very balanced. Delicate songs will sound delicate and songs where bass are impactful will definitely have impact.


Yes I'm sure you're right but I'm enjoying the vicarious thrill of reading your descriptions. The interesting thing about the Odyssey I imagine is the various possibilities of altering the sound signature which I'm sure you would agree?


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Yes I'm sure you're right but I'm enjoying the vicarious thrill of reading your descriptions. The interesting thing about the Odyssey I imagine is the various possibilities of altering the sound signature which I'm sure you would agree?



Agree and disagree to some degree. The ability to tube roll in Odyssey is not the only interesting thing about the amp. Everyone who sees it first time are awed by the looks including me but *the best part is the sound*. Tube changes will alter the sound but regardless, I have loved every tube rolled in Odyssey. So tube rolling plays just a very minute part of what's interesting. It's the killer tone.  Again I reiterate, I very much believe it's the Sowter transformers and Tomas's brilliant tuning of the amp that makes it so special. We all know it's about the implementation and this is Tomas's design and implementation. He has pushed the boundaries imho and produce a brilliant sounding amp. The prima donna looks is just a bonus.  

In fact after 2 months, I've just settled with using EL11 and EL12 spez with a 5u4g rectifier. This is the tube combination my friend heard and he wants to take Odyssey home with him.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> In fact after 2 months, I've just settled with using EL11 and EL12 spez with a 5u4g rectifier.


Do you think you could stay with that forever and just relax?


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> Do you think you could stay with that forever and just relax?


Probably not because that defeats the purpose of making this amp so versatile with tube changes. However each tube combination will stay in there longer before I make the change. I love using EL12 spez because the mains transformer is the coolest with that tube and also EL12 spez is such a gorgeous tone. No words to describe it. Utterly sexy tone.

After using EL12 spez for 2 weeks, I roll in KT88 and instantly I can hear the difference. Not better or worst but different. KT88 tone will pop into your head and take you back to the future.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> Probably not because that defeats the purpose of making this amp so versatile with tube changes. However each tube combination will stay in there longer before I make the change. I love using EL12 spez because the mains transformer is the coolest with that tube and also EL12 spez is such a gorgeous tone. No words to describe it. Utterly sexy tone.
> 
> After using EL12 spez for 2 weeks, I roll in KT88 and instantly I can hear the difference. Not better or worst but different. KT88 tone will pop into your head and take you back to the future.


That is how I would use such an amp too. Variation is a blessing. Different is good.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> That is how I would use such an amp too. Variation is a blessing. Different is good.



Same applies to golf. In the golf bag are the different woods, irons and putter. They have their specific uses. Imagine attempting a 300 metres shot with a 9 iron or a delicate putt with your driver. It's about knowing your clubs and tubes. 

When listening to Sade, you want the Tung Sol 6550. When listening to Norah Jones you want the EL34. When listening to Tom Jones, GE will do.


----------



## UntilThen

Ok that wasn't kind of me because Tom Jones's Delilah is an iconic song and deserving of the best tubes.


----------



## bcowen (Oct 18, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Same applies to golf. In the golf bag are the different woods, irons and putter. They have their specific uses. Imagine attempting a 300 metres shot with a 9 iron or a delicate putt with your driver. It's about knowing your clubs and tubes.
> 
> When listening to Sade, you want the Tung Sol 6550. When listening to Norah Jones you want the EL34. When listening to Tom Jones, GE will do.


When listening to Tom Jones, this will do:


----------



## UntilThen

I'm feeling vintage today. Pass it on to the younger generation lest they forget what NOS feels like.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Ok that wasn't kind of me because Tom Jones's Delilah is an iconic song and deserving of the best tubes.



Amp tubes or vocal tubes?…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> When listening to Tom Jones, this will do:


When listening to enduring Marilyn Manson, _this_ will do:


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Amp tubes or vocal tubes?…



It's the green green grass of tubes. I'm reminiscing now.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> I'm feeling vintage today. Pass it on to the younger generation lest they forget what NOS feels like.



How about what NOS is (was)…..?


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> When listening to Tom Jones, GE*C* will do.


@bcowen - I fixed it, so you do not suffer a mental meltdown


----------



## xfusion

Maxx134 said:


> All to see if they can beat the Mullard (for me) in the driver stage.
> Wew, I think that covers it for the driver stage.


Maxx you should try the Phillips Miniwatt 6AT6. Its really wonderfully revealing. I wonder if UT has tried them too ? I found them fit the best together with the Mazda 6DR6, and with Tesla (2nd).


----------



## UntilThen

xfusion said:


> Maxx you should try the Phillips Miniwatt 6AT6. Its really wonderfully revealing. I wonder if UT has tried them too ? I found them fit the best together with the Mazda 6DR6, and with Tesla (2nd).



I am using 6av6 because I'm special.  I have Dario Miniwatt 6av6 which I regard as a premier sounding driver. Not too bright and not too warm, with a great body and very revealing and I ain't describing a model.


----------



## xfusion

UntilThen said:


> Not too bright and not too warm, with a great body and very revealing and I ain't describing a model.


🤣🤣🤣 spot on!


----------



## Maxx134

xfusion said:


> Maxx you should try the Phillips Miniwatt 6AT6. Its really wonderfully revealing. I wonder if UT has tried them too ? I found them fit the best together with the Mazda 6DR6, and with Tesla (2nd).



You convinced me.
I purchased them.👍


----------



## UntilThen

I would not have expected a gradual transition to speaker listening instead of headphones but it's happening for me. The best part is Odyssey is definitely up to the task. In the design phase of the amp, I did ask that it be able to drive headphones and speakers for nearfield listening well. With 20 watts @ 8 ohms in UL mode, it drive these Axis Voicebox S at 83 dB and 5 ohms very well.


----------



## jonathan c (Oct 22, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I would not have expected a gradual transition to speaker listening instead of headphones but it's happening for me. The best part is Odyssey is definitely up to the task. In the design phase of the amp, I did ask that it be able to drive headphones and speakers for nearfield listening well. With 20 watts @ 8 ohms in UL mode, it drive these Axis Voicebox S at 83 dB and 5 ohms very well.


Is it time to conscript a pair of Altec “Voice of the Theatre” as near-field monitors?…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Is it time to conscript a pair of Altec “Voice of the Theatre” as near-field monitors?…



Won't have room for that ! Odyssey driving Axis as WW2 documentary on Netflix unfold before my eyes and ears. Pearl Harbour, Battle of Midway, Stalingrad, Normandy - Invasion day !!! All too real and only 70 years ago. The world today would have been different had some of those events turn out differently.


----------



## UntilThen

I have an audition of LCD5 at Addicted To Audio next Sat. Bringing Odyssey is out of the question though because I am allocated only 30 minutes. 😀


----------



## xfusion

UntilThen said:


> I have an audition of LCD5 at Addicted To Audio next Sat. Bringing Odyssey is out of the question though because I am allocated only 30 minutes. 😀


Hopefully you can audition LCD5 in a quiet environment. It is still as open back as any LCD before. Nevertheless, I am curious to know what is your impression toward LCD5 from an owner of LCD4!


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> I have an audition of LCD5 at Addicted To Audio next Sat. Bringing Odyssey is out of the question though because I am allocated only 30 minutes. 😀


You need a frame of reference that you know already has synergy with your existing systems.
Bring your fav headphones (as your"frame of reference") with you to compare..
Otherwise, your opportunity is missed.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> You need a frame of reference that you know already has synergy with your existing systems.
> Bring your fav headphones (as your"frame of reference") with you to compare..
> Otherwise, your opportunity is missed.



I'll be bringing LCD5 twins but I am only allocated 30 mins so I'll spend 25 mins on LCD5 and 5 mins on LCD4 because I know LCD4 like a Pa bear knows his cubs !


----------



## UntilThen

The best sounding setup is already here to my ears.   He1000se and LCD4 are like chalk and cheese. After 2 weeks with LCD4, I swap back to He1000se and the Red Sea parted.... literally. I love both headphones and power by Odyssey, I have found what I am looking for.

But I will only bring one headphone to audition with LCD5. Maybe none because it's too distracting trying to listen to 2 headphones in a 30 minutes timeframe. Besides I know how these 2 headphones sound by the back of my hands. I know their DNA.

However something strange also happen. I'm getting back my HD800 and have placed an order for the HD800S. When I heard the HD800 with Odyssey last week, it's like meeting the Pale Rider. Wonderful and deadly.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I'll be bringing LCD5 twins but I am only allocated 30 mins so I'll spend 25 mins on LCD5 and 5 mins on LCD4 because I know LCD4 like a Pa bear knows his cubs !



That's me on the left and @UntilThen on the right in case anybody was wondering.


----------



## xfusion (Oct 25, 2021)

I am pretty happy with my current set up with both CD player and Audirvana 😄😄. One big important lesson here, the quality of our power supply is often overlooked and yet it is essential to the whole sound quality of a system!


----------



## SonicTrance

Here's a special type Oblivion! It has 12AX7 input and 6P19S output tubes. 6P19S are great tubes but are mainly used here, instead of EL81's for height restrictions. As you can see this Oblivion is low profile with a different chassis than normally. Sounds really good, I'm happy with it and I hope the customer will be as well


----------



## xfusion (Oct 26, 2021)

SonicTrance said:


> Here's a special type Oblivion! It has 12AX7 input and 6P19S output tubes. 6P19S are great tubes but are mainly used here, instead of EL81's for height restrictions. As you can see this Oblivion is low profile with a different chassis than normally. Sounds really good, I'm happy with it and I hope the customer will be as well


Any sound impression? Perhaps Tomas can describe the difference sonically in compare to the original Oblivion? 😄. Is this transformerless? It looks a bit smaller than the first Oblivion.


----------



## SonicTrance

xfusion said:


> Any sound impression? Perhaps Tomas can describe the difference sonically in compare to the original Oblivion? 😄. Is this transformerless? It looks a bit smaller than the first Oblivion.


It sounds basically like the standard Oblivion. The original schematic is the same with some changes to accommodate the different tubes. The transformers are on the inside. Chassis is a little deeper but not as wide as the stock Oblivion.
It was somewhat of a challenge to build but fun!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Here's a special type Oblivion! It has 12AX7 input and 6P19S output tubes. 6P19S are great tubes but are mainly used here, instead of EL81's for height restrictions. As you can see this Oblivion is low profile with a different chassis than normally. Sounds really good, I'm happy with it and I hope the customer will be as well



Interesting ! Been away for a while and things are happening here.


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey has a new partner. Denon DP-47f in mint condition. Playing Bruce Springsteen 'Dancing in the dark'.


----------



## UntilThen

The eagles have landed. Tesla and Marconi 6av6 drivers for my Oblivion. Will roll it in today.


----------



## UntilThen

As usual after a period of not using Oblivion, it always left me very impressed ! Now using Tesla drivers and power tubes with LCD4, I love it. Clarity is it's first name, Soundstage is it's second name and great body texture and euphonic tones are it's other names.

LCD4 is opened up with this combination and treble is sweet. 1st impressions always matters even with new tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Listening to Roger Waters 'Us + Them' now with LCD4. Oblivion is dishing up the goods !  So clear and dynamic. This setup is great. 

Still on Tesla 6av6 and Tesla EL81. Amp has been on for 8 hours and still cool to the touch.


----------



## UntilThen

A lot has happened in 48 hours. I felt I have travel around the world. Now I'm back on my home base - here.  Believe it or not, the Tesla tubes are still in Oblivion and I'm still using the amp. Oblivion sounded great with LCD4 and He1000se. It will sound great with LCD5 I'm 100% sure. Why? Because I heard the LCD5 and CRBN at the downtown store. Private viewing.  Amp used was a Naim Uniti Atom and that is a lovely sounding solid state all in one wonder.

But the greatest wonder amp imho is this. Took it out to the kitchen temporary because there's no room on my study table that has Oblivion and the Denon turntable.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh Marconi where have you been all this while. This is my best driver in Oblivion amongst the RCA, Mazda, Dario Miniwatt, Tesla. Either my hearing is better today or there's a realism in the music I listen to this morning. Yes impressed straight out of the box. Let's see if it changed after more hours. So what's different. There's a lift to the song now and more dynamic.


----------



## UntilThen

LP after LP. I can't imagine a better past time for a Sunday afternoon. Alchemy - Dire Straits Live. Bought this album several years ago. Marconi and Tesla tubes still in Oblivion. I haven't use Odyssey for 2 days ! That says something about Oblivion. 

Bcowen did you see what is on the table now? The finest gorilla hair brush.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> LP after LP. I can't imagine a better past time for a Sunday afternoon. Alchemy - Dire Straits Live. Bought this album several years ago. Marconi and Tesla tubes still in Oblivion. I haven't use Odyssey for 2 days ! That says something about Oblivion.
> 
> Bcowen did you see what is on the table now? The finest gorilla hair brush.


I am _almost _without words. A clean stylus, a clean LP, and the dust cover actually down while the LP is playing. It appears my work here is done.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> LP after LP. I can't imagine a better past time for a Sunday afternoon. Alchemy - Dire Straits Live. Bought this album several years ago. Marconi and Tesla tubes still in Oblivion. I haven't use Odyssey for 2 days ! That says something about Oblivion.
> 
> Bcowen did you see what is on the table now? The finest gorilla hair brush.


That gorilla hairbrush obviously works, I can't see a speck of dust anywhere! There shouldn't be... if it works on a gorilla then UT's workspace is a piece of cake 🙂.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> That gorilla hairbrush obviously works, I can't see a speck of dust anywhere! There shouldn't be... if it works on a gorilla then UT's workspace is a piece of cake 🙂.


Just do not use it with Gorilla Glue!…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Just do not use it with Gorilla Glue!…


Absolutely.  Gorilla Glue is to be used exclusively for hair styling.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Absolutely.  Gorilla Glue is to be used exclusively for hair styling.


Just ask the “go fund me” lady…


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I am _almost _without words. A clean stylus, a clean LP, and the dust cover actually down while the LP is playing. It appears my work here is done.


There's more. I will send you an Ostrich feather.


----------



## Maxx134 (Nov 1, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Oh Marconi where have you been all this while. This is my best driver in Oblivion amongst the RCA, Mazda, Dario Miniwatt, Tesla. Either my hearing is better today or there's a realism in the music I listen to this morning. Yes impressed straight out of the box. Let's see if it changed after more hours. So what's different. There's a lift to the song now and more dynamic.


Its all your fault now, that I bought them.

More pretty in the 6at6 version 😄


----------



## UntilThen

Your Marconi is made in Italy. Nicer looking tube and box. Mine is from Spain ! I'm using Marconi 6av6 with Mullard EL81 this morning.


----------



## UntilThen

Almost a week using Oblivion with LCD4. Odyssey is having a rest.  Yesterday I started using Roon LCD4 preset (EQ) and what a remarkable change. Treble is more extended and bass is tighter and hits harder. It's almost a perfect tone for me.


----------



## UntilThen

Brand new straight out of the box HD800S. New headphone smell.   So transparent and wide. HD800S is still good in 2021 and Odyssey handles it with aplomb.


----------



## xfusion

UntilThen said:


> Brand new straight out of the box HD800S. New headphone smell.   So transparent and wide. HD800S is still good in 2021 and Odyssey handles it with aplomb.


Not getting the LCD5 afterall?


----------



## UntilThen

xfusion said:


> Not getting the LCD5 afterall?



That's still in my roadmap. I bought the HD800S when they had a special for a month at $400 less new price. Also I want to have the HD800 and HD800S side by side with Odyssey to hear the difference. They do sound very good with Odyssey and Oblivion.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> I bought the HD800S when they had a special for a month at $400 less new price.


Same offer here, seems worldwide. How's the bass with HD800S?


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Same offer here, seems worldwide. How's the bass with HD800S?



Bass is definitely more prominent than the HD800. 4 hours in and I'm starting to enjoy the HD800S. I have also not use Odyssey for a week. So what's hitting my ears is very good.  Listening to Beck - Morning Phase.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> That's still in my roadmap.


LCD5 are good for a serial killer. They ship them with a pair of white gloves. LOL






Picture taken from here (Classifieds section).


----------



## UntilThen

Selling so soon already?


----------



## Maxx134 (Nov 6, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Mine is from Spain !


Nooooooooowaaaa......🥲




xfusion said:


> Not getting the LCD5 afterall?



I have already played with it on my Dap (ibasso 300Max Ti) and it does sound "end-game" level in resolve. The bass had an incredible ability of being powerful and fast. It can literally punch your ears with visceral/physical feel.
It just needed an EQ boost in upper range, to "feel" complete (for me).




UntilThen said:


> Brand new straight out of the box HD800S. New headphone smell.   So transparent and wide. HD800S is still good in 2021 and Odyssey handles it with aplomb.


Fantastic choice with a strong tube amp.
Too bad your too far away to hear my moded unit...

🙂
It has greater bass extension and sounds closer to the susvara (to me). 👍


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> I have already played with it on my Dap (ibasso 300Max Ti) and it does sound "end-game" level in resolve. The bass had an incredible ability of being powerful and fast. It can literally punch your ears with visceral/physical feel.
> It just needs an EQ boost in upper range, to "feel" complete (for me).



Damm you own it already.  I audition it for 30 mins only at the shop with Naim Uniti Atom. I really want to hear the LCD5 with Odyssey and Oblivion. I know it will be explosive.



Maxx134 said:


> Fantastic choice with a strong tube amp.
> Too bad your too far away to hear my moded unit...



Jaw dropping in looks.  Where can I buy the pads you have on there? Love the Ferrari red colour.

I have my brief and concise summary of the 2 Sennheiser HD800 / HD800S here. 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sen...d-first-post-for-summary.795365/post-16647801


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> Damm you own it already.


No, just have nice friends 👍.




UntilThen said:


> Jaw dropping in looks.  Where can I buy the pads you have on there? Love the Ferrari red colour.


Those are the best Dekoni ferenstrated earpads. There are about three versions and these are their top model.
You can check either their website or eBay.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Those are the best Dekoni ferenstrated earpads. There are about three versions and these are their top model.
> You can check either their website or eBay.



O...k. I will replace the HD800 4 years old earpads with the Dekoni ferenstrated earpads. I think the tone will change slightly that's for sure. Hopefully for the better. Are the pads easily swapped back? In case I don't like the Dekoni pads and decide to put it on the bbq !

https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/coll...sheepskin-earpads-for-sennheiser-hd800-series

However I'm using Dekoni pads on my LCD4 and I have on order the latest LCD4 earpads. Just takes forever to come. Forever means like 6 months already.


----------



## UntilThen

Sun's coming up since I started listening at 4:30am. That's almost 3 hours.  4 headphones to rotate and one Odyssey to do the job.  Loving the different presentation from the headphones and this He1000se anchors it down the home stretch for gold.


----------



## UntilThen

First time listening with Tung Sol KT150 tubes in Odyssey and it's a big wow moment. Using HD800, it's pitch perfect. No sloppiness here. Tight as a crocodile jaw, the grip is menacing and the punch is that of Tyson Fury.


----------



## baronbeehive (Nov 8, 2021)

Maxx134 said:


> Fantastic choice with a strong tube amp.
> Too bad your too far away to hear my moded unit...


I didn't know  you modded the HD800S as well, must check it out.

Edit: I see, I just read it. I misunderstood, it's not the HD800S .


----------



## baronbeehive (Nov 7, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Damm you own it already.  I audition it for 30 mins only at the shop with Naim Uniti Atom. I really want to hear the LCD5 with Odyssey and Oblivion. I know it will be explosive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What about a pads rolling thread 🙂👍.

I will check out that summary, interesting to hear your impressions of the 2 Sennys side by side.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Sun's coming up since I started listening at 4:30am. That's almost 3 hours.  4 headphones to rotate and one Odyssey to do the job.  Loving the different presentation from the headphones and this He1000se anchors it down the home stretch for gold.


Fantastic! Not enough hours in the day 🥳.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Fantastic! Not enough hours in the day 🥳.



Day started early in the morning with head-fi and will end with head-fi. In between I do other stuff of course. Now HD800 is on my head with Odyssey powering it. Song is Stairway To Heaven. Have to listen to this famous Led Zep song that celebrates 50 years in 2021.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

Set aside from WA33, Ultrasonic Oblivion is easily my most favourite amp. However, Riviera may change the result. Haven't AB comparison with WA33, but based on memory I think I will put Riviera above WA33.

At 1/5 of the price, Oblivion easily punch much better price/performance, that for sure, however when we only judge the performance only, I have to give Riviera a nod.

In direct comparison Riviera is more organic vocality, fuller body, more fluid in presentation. Soundstage depth is the best I ever heard in headphone amp period. The layer between instrument is clearer and more definition. The extreme right and left staging is still wider with Oblivion by a little bit, but the height (up to down imaging) is more "open up" with Riviera.

Technical wise, in term of texture, detail, and separation, Riviera comes to the top.

Positive news, even when direct comparison Oblivion still showing its own capability, as it's hit harder in term of overall impact and closer to neutral tonality.

Overall, it was as awesome experience to be able to compare both amp side by side, that I believe so hard to do here in south east asia


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> Set aside from WA33, Ultrasonic Oblivion is easily my most favourite amp. However, Riviera may change the result. Haven't AB comparison with WA33, but based on memory I think I will put Riviera above WA33.
> 
> At 1/5 of the price, Oblivion easily punch much better price/performance, that for sure, however when we only judge the performance only, I have to give Riviera a nod.
> 
> ...



Black and grey. The picture colour is great. Is Riviera a solid state amp?


----------



## UntilThen

Nostalgic. I remember buying this HD800 with Yggdrasil and Ragnarok back in 2017. Sound so good with Yggdrasil and Odyssey now.


----------



## UntilThen

Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SL7GT VT-229 as recommended by Bcowen. Using it with Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base. Good sounding driver ! Typical Sylvania tone. Guitar twang like it should.


----------



## DecentLevi (Nov 8, 2021)

Took some digging among amps with the same name but here it is, Riviera Audio AIC-10. Looks like a top notch German amp that uses 1 miniature tube internally released a few years ago and still relatively unknown, at the 'modest' price of $15K. Good to see these boutique tube amps compare in at least some ways to such high caliber amps like these.
http://gpoint-audio.com/new-riviera...ted-amplifier-test-by-fidelio-on-musicalhead/
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/riviera-aic-10-headphones-speakers-amplifier.936387/


----------



## baronbeehive

DecentLevi said:


> Took some digging among amps with the same name but here it is, Riviera Audio AIC-10. Looks like a top notch German amp that uses 1 miniature tube internally released a few years ago and still relatively unknown, at the 'modest' price of $15K. Good to see these boutique tube amps compare in at least some ways to such high caliber amps like these.
> http://gpoint-audio.com/new-riviera...ted-amplifier-test-by-fidelio-on-musicalhead/
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/riviera-aic-10-headphones-speakers-amplifier.936387/


I notice it uses some similar principles to sonics amps such as open loop, some SS output components such as mosfets, tubes supply voltage on the gain stage, and a well designed PSU.


----------



## mordy

DecentLevi said:


> Took some digging among amps with the same name but here it is, Riviera Audio AIC-10. Looks like a top notch German amp that uses 1 miniature tube internally released a few years ago and still relatively unknown, at the 'modest' price of $15K. Good to see these boutique tube amps compare in at least some ways to such high caliber amps like these.
> http://gpoint-audio.com/new-riviera...ted-amplifier-test-by-fidelio-on-musicalhead/
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/riviera-aic-10-headphones-speakers-amplifier.936387/


Hi DL - good to hear from you!
IMHO what the world needs is not another 15K amp but a sub $400 giant slayer amp!


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi DL - good to hear from you!
> IMHO what the world needs is not another 15K amp but a sub $400 giant slayer amp!



That's why you need boutique tube amp builders. Not exactly $400. You know those Sowter irons comes from some iron mines and there's a lot of digging involved.


----------



## UntilThen

Got a new LP !!!


----------



## triod750

New loudspeakers for UntilThen!​​Odyssey Epiphony​


----------



## UntilThen

Sorry I bought over this shop already.


----------



## triod750

Even you can make mistakes, obviously. The ones in my post - your speakers - are shabby chic. Nothing to be ashamed of. You listen with your eyes closed...


----------



## UntilThen

There's such thing as too much Odyssey. In my chain, only the amp is Odyssey. The rest has to be something else.  

So no shabby chic speakers name Odyssey for me. Besides this is more chic and not shabby and I can listen with my eyes open.


----------



## triod750




----------



## mordy

It is really funny that my everyday speakers look just like the chic Odyssey speakers:





Elac Debut 6 - a KEF LS50 slayer....and very budget friendly.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> Fantastic! Not enough hours in the day 🥳.


And not enough ears on the head 🤪…


----------



## baronbeehive

mordy said:


> Elac Debut 6 - a KEF LS50 slayer....and very budget friendly.


Mine too!

Monitor Audio Silver RS1





Very happy with these for the price. Speaking of which...

... here's a quite amusing video on audiophiles: 

Here's another on why bookshelf speakers are better than floormounts: 

Such heresy LOL 😲.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> And not enough ears on the head 🤪…


Must be an audiophile 👍.


----------



## baronbeehive

@UntilThen I believe you have had your Oblivion and HE100SE for about a year now.. what went wrong?  😜


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> @UntilThen I believe you have had your Oblivion and HE100SE for about a year now.. what went wrong?  😜



Had Oblivion for 2 years and He1000se for one year.  Everything's right. It's a perfect coupling.  

Tomorrow on the 13th Nov 2021, Odyssey is 3 months old. Can't believe it's been only 3 months. Seems like I have Odyssey for a long time now. I only need Odyssey, Oblivion and Destiny and I'm ready to be exiled to Elba.


----------



## triod750

So Elba is your new UltraSonic 300B amp then?


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> So Elba is your new UltraSonic 300B amp then?



No it's Josephine !


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Mine too!
> 
> Monitor Audio Silver RS1
> 
> ...



Nothing like a self-proclaimed expert to be so clueless.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Nothing like a self-proclaimed expert to be so clueless.


No, and there are a lot of them about on youtube 👍.


----------



## triod750

baronbeehive said:


> No, and there are a lot of them about on youtube 👍.


How about these forums?


----------



## UntilThen

3 months old report card for Odyssey. All that I wish for in head-fi is encapsulated in this amp. I could not live without Odyssey now. A good tone is your best aphrodisiac and Odyssey is more than a good tone - like a 100 good tones. That's a 100 aphrodisiac.  

I love a lot of tube combinations but my favourite - surprise, surprise... after 3 months I know my favourite. It's the Berlin combination of Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez. Especially thanks to Tomas for putting on a nice grey sleeve on the adapter wire. It's purrfect now.


----------



## mordy (Nov 12, 2021)

triod750 said:


> How about these forums?


In general I must say that I have been very pleasantly surprised over the years with the vast knowledge, humor and tolerance of the forum members on the forums I frequent.
In the early days a number of years ago there were some bad apples voicing spurious and negative claims, but happily these people are gone.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Nothing like a self-proclaimed expert to be so clueless.


Ex-pertinent


----------



## Galapac (Nov 12, 2021)

mordy said:


> In general I must say that I have been very pleasantly surprised over the years with the vast knowledge, humor and tolerance of the forum members on the forums I frequent.
> In the early days a number of years ago there were some bad apples voicing spurious and negative claims, but happily these people are gone.


They went...ahem...to those other sites..lol.
I like that most of us on Head-Fi don't take ourselves too seriously.


----------



## UntilThen

Galapac said:


> I like that most of us on Head-Fi don't take ourselves too seriously.



Never. We don't take ourselves seriously. All I'm trying to do it to teach Bcowen that his driver needs to be at this position after the swing.... and keep the eyes on the ball flight. Not too hard right?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Never. We don't take ourselves seriously. All I'm trying to do it to teach Bcowen that his driver needs to be at this position after the swing.... and keep the eyes on the ball flight. Not too hard right?


Every time I do that I end up smacking my jaw.  And it hurts.  Perhaps I'm taking you too seriously.


----------



## Maxx134

Been rolling alot of driver tubes, and this is a surprise for me:



Totally didn't expect the RCA to be so good 😯🙂


----------



## Maxx134

I made some notes on initial listening of about 11 pairs (one pair had a dead heater 🥲) that I will post,  and have another three on the way because some brands have different construction in later years, with difference of side getter and top getter.
Most tubes were from Europe and had grey plate.
One had charcoal color and two had black plates.
Surprisingly most of the tubes  sounded great. No bad tubes this time around. GEs are gone, lol.


----------



## UntilThen

Rolling, rolling.  

I was at the shop listening to Burson Conductor 3x with Susvara. That was a mistake because Susvara sound amazing.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Rolling, rolling.
> 
> I was at the shop listening to Burson Conductor 3x with Susvara. That was a mistake because Susvara sound amazing *is coming soon.*


FTFY.


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> Been rolling alot of driver tubes, and this is a surprise for me:
> Totally didn't expect the RCA to be so good 😯🙂


What type and construction is that RCA?


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Every time I do that I end up smacking my jaw.  And it hurts.  Perhaps I'm taking you too seriously.


UT forgot to say keep your eye on *the ball 🤣.*


----------



## baronbeehive

mordy said:


> In general I must say that I have been very pleasantly surprised over the years with the *vast knowledge*, humor and tolerance of the forum members on the forums I frequent.
> In the early days a number of years ago there were some bad apples voicing spurious and negative claims, but happily these people are gone.


.. and our expertise on this forum is staggering.. especially on GE's 👍.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> FTFY.


ROFL!!!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> FTFY.



In a world of 'fixed that for you', this one tops it all.... 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/whats-the-best-amp-for-hd800.660817/post-16658811

and that's a reply to my post.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/whats-the-best-amp-for-hd800.660817/post-16656231


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> In a world of 'fixed that for you', this one tops it all....
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/whats-the-best-amp-for-hd800.660817/post-16658811
> 
> ...


LOL!  He explains himself a few posts later:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/whats-the-best-amp-for-hd800.660817/page-43#post-16658942

Perhaps in addition to 'Headphoneus Supremus' we need 'Headphoneus Ignoramus'.


----------



## UntilThen

Bcowen, I think I am missing the last important puzzle in my setup. A 16" MBP.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Bcowen, I think I am missing the last important puzzle in my setup. A 16" MBP.


----------



## UntilThen

HD800 got a new set of pads and this is fast becoming my favourite headphone with Odyssey. He1000se is in the shop now for new pads and headband. I expect it to come back looking like new. Also awaiting new pads for LCD4 which is taking forever to come. These are the lower profile 2021 LCD4 pads.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> HD800 got a new set of pads and this is fast becoming my favourite headphone with Odyssey. He1000se is in the shop now for new pads and headband. I expect it to come back looking like new. Also awaiting new pads for LCD4 which is taking forever to come. These are the lower profile 2021 LCD4 pads.


Yes, but do you have the proper adapter to plug them into your computer?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Yes, but do you have the proper adapter to plug them into your computer?



You mean the MacBook Pro? That's in next financial year expense. Will get an all singing and dancing MBP !


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> You mean the MacBook Pro? That's in next financial year expense. Will get an all singing and dancing MBP !


----------



## UntilThen

and we shall dance.


----------



## baronbeehive (Nov 14, 2021)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  He explains himself a few posts later:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/whats-the-best-amp-for-hd800.660817/page-43#post-16658942
> 
> Perhaps in addition to 'Headphoneus Supremus' we need 'Headphoneus Ignoramus'.


Experts.. and yet more self proclaimed experts is all we get on these forums 👍.

Edit: Woops.. I meant Hifi forums,  not headfi LOL.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> You mean the MacBook Pro? That's in next financial year expense. Will get an all singing and dancing MBP !


I knew they were good.. just didn't know they were *that* good .


----------



## baronbeehive (Nov 14, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> and we shall dance.


Since we've now branched out into dance, nothing beats this for sheer cringe making horror :


😲.


----------



## UntilThen

That was Bcowen when he was young. Helluva dancer he is.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> That was Bcowen when he was young. Helluva dancer he is.


My character in Pulp Fiction was more true to life.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> HD800 got a new set of pads and this is fast becoming my favourite headphone with Odyssey. He1000se is in the shop now for new pads and headband. I expect it to come back looking like new. Also awaiting new pads for LCD4 which is taking forever to come. These are the lower profile 2021 LCD4 pads.


Nice UT.

When I owned the HD800 after a few years , new pads made a nice positive difference to the sound, even though the old pads looked to have more wear left on them.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Experts.. and yet more self proclaimed experts is all we get on these forums 👍.
> 
> Edit: Woops.. I meant Hifi forums,  not headfi LOL.


I only visit a small fraction of the threads on Head-Fi, but the trolls and self-important are mostly conspicuous by their absence. One of the big differences between Head-Fi and many other audio forums is that the off-topic diversions are generally humorous and all in fun rather than venomous personal attacks and one-upmanship.  Hope that never changes. Ever.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> I only visit a small fraction of the threads on Head-Fi, but the trolls and self-important are mostly conspicuous by their absence. One of the big differences between Head-Fi and many other audio forums is that the off-topic diversions are generally humorous and all in fun rather than *venomous personal attacks and one-upmanship*.  Hope that never changes. Ever.


God I hate that, it only takes a slightly dubious remark and before you know it someone weighs in with a sarcastic comment.. and then we have a full blown personal attack by the self righteous. That's one of the reasons I don't go on Facebook, apart from the fact I can't stand Mark Zuckerberg and his attempts at world domination.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Nice UT.
> 
> When I owned the HD800 after a few years , new pads made a nice positive difference to the sound, even though the old pads looked to have more wear left on them.



I'm glad I kept the HD800. For when I need the cold blast. Speaking of cold blast, I'm going to Jindabyne, Snowy Mountains this week. Sometimes you need to get away from head-fi.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> I'm glad I kept the HD800. For when I need the cold blast. Speaking of cold blast, I'm going to Jindabyne, Snowy Mountains this week. Sometimes you need to get away from head-fi.


Looks absolutely beautiful....have fun!


----------



## jonathan c (Nov 14, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> God I hate that, it only takes a slightly dubious remark and before you know it someone weighs in with a sarcastic comment.. and then we have a full blown personal attack by the self righteous. That's one of the reasons I don't go on Facebook, apart from the fact I can't stand Mark Zuckerberg and his attempts at world domination.


~ Head-Fi is the only electronic/media/web platform that I am registered on. I certainly do not intend to use Facebook and I cringe when my wife wants to show me “stuff” on Facebook. At least the threads/forums that I frequent on Head-Fi have a great mix of: goodwill, information, jabbing, memories, pictures, and ridicule - all thanks to the real HeadFiers there.
~ IDEA: can the “like” symbols etc be changed away from the Facebook thumbs type? I suggest that “like” be 🎧. The opposite would be the headphones upside down.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> ~ Head-Fi is the only electronic/media/web platform that I am registered on. I certainly do not intend to use Facebook and I cringe when my wife wants to show me “stuff” on Facebook. At least the threads/forums that I frequent on Head-Fi have a great mix of: goodwill, information, jabbing, memories, pictures, and ridicule - all thanks to the real HeadFiers there.
> ~ IDEA: can the “like” symbols etc be changed away from the Facebook thumbs type? I suggest that “like” be 🎧. The opposite would be the headphones upside down.


Actually, a Like icon should be a tube, and a Dislike icon a transistor.


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> Actually, a Like icon should be a tube, and a Dislike icon a transistor.


Suggestions:


----------



## leftside

baronbeehive said:


> God I hate that, it only takes a slightly dubious remark and before you know it someone weighs in with a sarcastic comment.. and then we have a full blown personal attack by the self righteous. That's one of the reasons I don't go on Facebook, apart from the fact I can't stand Mark Zuckerberg and his attempts at world domination.





UntilThen said:


> I'm glad I kept the HD800. For when I need the cold blast. Speaking of cold blast, I'm going to Jindabyne, Snowy Mountains this week. Sometimes you need to get away from head-fi.


Those chairlifts look as old as some of my tubes!


----------



## mordy

leftside said:


> Those chairlifts look as old as some of my tubes!







Better be careful UT - the name of one ski resort in the Snowy Mountains is Perisher.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Actually, a Like icon should be a tube, and a Dislike icon a transistor.


Even more specialised: like is GEC tube, dislike is GE tube…?…


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Those chairlifts look as old as some of my tubes!



They are new old stock ! 



mordy said:


> Better be careful UT - the name of one ski resort in the Snowy Mountains is Perisher.



After I'm done with it, it will be called Survival.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> They are new old stock !
> 
> 
> 
> After I'm done with it, it will be called Survival.


Don't know what it is about ski resorts, but there is a very famous one in Durango, Colorado that is called Purgatory (although it must be pretty cold there):
https://www.durango.com/purgatory-resort/


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> ~ Head-Fi is the only electronic/media/web platform that I am registered on. I certainly do not intend to use Facebook and I cringe when my wife wants to show me “stuff” on Facebook. At least the threads/forums that I frequent on Head-Fi have a great mix of: goodwill, information, jabbing, memories, pictures, and ridicule - all thanks to the real HeadFiers there.
> ~ IDEA: can the “like” symbols etc be changed away from the Facebook thumbs type? I suggest that “like” be 🎧. The opposite would be the headphones upside down.


Good idea.. anything but "like" which is so meaningless, and people on Facebook spend their lives counting up their "likes".


----------



## baronbeehive (Nov 15, 2021)

leftside said:


> Those chairlifts look as old as some of my tubes!


This looks safer, "Oblivion" at Alton Towers:



😲😵‍💫.

For those not of a nervous disposition there are passenger eye videos, I had to close my eyes.


----------



## rollinbr (Nov 15, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I'm glad I kept the HD800. For when I need the cold blast. Speaking of cold blast, I'm going to Jindabyne, Snowy Mountains this week. Sometimes you need to get away from head-fi.



And this time of year I'm sure you'll be tearing up the mountains on a mountain bike!!! Looks like a nice area to go to and get away from the city!

https://www.visitnsw.com/destinations/snowy-mountains/jindabyne-area/jindabyne


----------



## mordy

rollinbr said:


> And this time of year I'm sure you'll be tearing up the mountains on a mountain bike!!! Looks like a nice area to go to and get away from the city!
> 
> https://www.visitnsw.com/destinations/snowy-mountains/jindabyne-area/jindabyne


You may be right - Down Under is the opposite of our seasons:

Does the snowy mountains have snow all year round?
The season opens on the June long weekend and runs until the October long weekend, with the best *snow usually in July and August*.


----------



## UntilThen

rollinbr said:


> And this time of year I'm sure you'll be tearing up the mountains on a mountain bike!!! Looks like a nice area to go to and get away from the city!
> 
> https://www.visitnsw.com/destinations/snowy-mountains/jindabyne-area/jindabyne



Looks lovely. This year's weather is a bit crazy. It's still cold and there's still snow with 2 weeks more into Summer. Well I'll be without head-fi for a week.


----------



## Maxx134

baronbeehive said:


> What type and construction is that RCA?


It's old but not oldest.
Probably in middle.
Red letter, Side getter, and black plates.

I believe older or oldest is higher quality, from my experience with RCA in other size tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Good morning. 😀


----------



## Zachik

@UntilThen - I do not see any tubes in your photo!  Am I going blind?!


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> @UntilThen - I do not see any tubes in your photo!  Am I going blind?!


He was using a tube camera.


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> @UntilThen - I do not see any tubes in your photo!  Am I going blind?!


Hello I ascended Mt Everest.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Hello I ascended Mt Everest.


When skiing in the US, we _descend_.  Weird.  Do you have to ride the lift to get back down?


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> When skiing in the US, we _descend_.  Weird.  Do you have to ride the lift to get back down?


Everything is upside down in Auzie land... I hope toilets flush DOWN there!! 🤮


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Hello I ascended Mt Everest.


Where are the sherpas?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> He was using a tube camera.


Marconikon…


----------



## UntilThen

Summit-Fi 😃


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Summit-Fi 😃



Fixed it for you:


----------



## baronbeehive

Zachik said:


> Fixed it for you:



I think UT went there to get away from tubes for a few days 🙂.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> I think UT went there to get away from *GE *tubes for a few days 🙂.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]



Hope you're sitting down...   I actually bought these (with real money).  They were cheap to the point where the shipping was as much as the tubes, and I've read some opinions here and there that GE was one of the better makers of this tube type.  I tossed my bias to the side really wanting to like them (mostly 'cause I could stash up for almost free), but no such luck.  They suck.  They sound like a pair of mini-monitors with no bass below 40 Hz.  Nada...not even like they're trying hard to pretend.  They test nicely as an almost perfectly matched pair and are slightly above bogey NOS values, so it's not that they're worn out.  I guess I'm not surprised, but I *am* disappointed.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Hope you're sitting down...   I actually bought these (with real money).  They were cheap to the point where the shipping was as much as the tubes, and I've read some opinions here and there that GE was one of the better makers of this tube type.  I tossed my bias to the side really wanting to like them (mostly 'cause I could stash up for almost free), but no such luck.  They suck.  They sound like a pair of mini-monitors with no bass below 40 Hz.  Nada...not even like they're trying hard to pretend.  They test nicely as an almost perfectly matched pair and are slightly above bogey NOS values, so it's not that they're worn out.  I guess I'm not surprised, but I *am* disappointed.


I actually have an adapter to use 2 x 6C4 tubes in the GOTL driver 6SN7 socket.  Next time you ship something to me, feel free to use these as packing material


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Hope you're sitting down...   I actually bought these (with real money).  They were cheap to the point where the shipping was as much as the tubes, and I've read some opinions here and there that GE was one of the better makers of this tube type.  I tossed my bias to the side really wanting to like them (mostly 'cause I could stash up for almost free), but no such luck.  They suck.  They sound like a pair of mini-monitors with no bass below 40 Hz.  Nada...not even like they're trying hard to pretend.  They test nicely as an almost perfectly matched pair and are slightly above bogey NOS values, so it's not that they're worn out.  I guess I'm not surprised, but I *am* disappointed.


Well, your purchase/use of these GEs _did _coincide with a near total eclipse of a full moon…..gravitationally-induced eustachean imbalance —> lapse of cognitive tube boundary?…🤪?…


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> I actually have an adapter to use 2 x 6C4 tubes in the GOTL driver 6SN7 socket.  Next time you ship something to me, feel free to use these as packing material


You don't want them.  I mean, of course, unless you want your GOTL to sound like a clock radio.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Well, your purchase/use of these GEs _did _coincide with a near total eclipse of a full moon…..gravitationally-induced eustachean imbalance —> lapse of cognitive tube boundary?…🤪?…


No, just my lifelong quest to find a good sounding GE.  Appears I will die of old age first though.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> unless you want your GOTL to sound like a clock radio.


When ordering my GOTL, I asked Glenn: "is it possible to add a switch, to make the GOTL sound like a clock radio?".
He replied: "No, that would require the use of a DSP".
So... I guess Glenn was wrong after all. Only need to tube roll a pair of GE 6C4s...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> No, just my lifelong quest to find a good sounding GE.


The great sounding GEs are right before you: in boxes where they sound best.


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> When ordering my GOTL, I asked Glenn: "is it possible to add a switch, to make the GOTL sound like a clock radio?".
> He replied: "*No, that would require the use of a DSP".*
> So... I guess Glenn was wrong after all. Only need to tube roll a pair of GE 6C4s...


*D*ecidedly *S*ucky *P*entode?


----------



## jonathan c

Zachik said:


> When ordering my GEOTL, I asked Glenn: "is it possible to make the GEOTL sound and look like this?’…


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## UntilThen

What a busy lot you are.  You have no idea how good my head-fi sound after 5 days absence.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Hope you're sitting down...   I actually bought these (with real money).  They were cheap to the point where the shipping was as much as the tubes, and I've read some opinions here and there that GE was one of the better makers of this tube type.  I tossed my bias to the side really wanting to like them (mostly 'cause I could stash up for almost free), but no such luck.  They suck.  They sound like a pair of mini-monitors with no bass below 40 Hz.  Nada...not even like they're trying hard to pretend.  They test nicely as an almost perfectly matched pair and are slightly above bogey NOS values, so it's not that they're worn out.  I guess I'm not surprised, but I *am* disappointed.


Some lessons in life are learned the hard way, and we keep on making the same mistakes 🤣.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> Well, your purchase/use of these GEs _did _coincide with a near total eclipse of a full moon…..gravitationally-induced *eustachean imbalance* —> lapse of cognitive tube boundary?…🤪?…


.. so that's why bcowen didn't like those GE's, an inner ear problem 👍.


----------



## baronbeehive (Nov 21, 2021)

bcowen said:


> No, just my lifelong quest to find a good sounding GE.  Appears I will die of old age first though.



Yes, if your luck is in 😆.

Funny thing about them, the build quality seems excellent, Watford valves love them.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> The great sounding GEs are right before you: in boxes where they sound best.


They make a very good rattling sound when you shake the box 👍.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> What a busy lot you are.  You have no idea how good my head-fi sound after 5 days absence.


Think how good your Odyssey will sound when you come back 🥳🤩.


----------



## baronbeehive

I would just like to put a note in for the "Be kind to GE's society" of which there might be at least one member.. only thing is I can't think of what to say 🙂.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> Well, your purchase/use of these GEs _did _coincide with a near total eclipse of a full moon…..gravitationally-induced eustachean imbalance —> lapse of cognitive *audio *tube boundary?…🤪?…


FTFY.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Yes, if your luck is in 😆.
> 
> Funny thing about them, the build quality seems excellent, Watford valves love them.


LOL!  Yes, most of them appear to have good build quality which also makes them highly desirable for a tube vendor:

1) Fewer 'DOA' rejects from a bulk purchase
2) Fewer issues with returns or refunds due to infant mortality 
3) Buy them dirt cheap, apply a 10x margin, and still sell them for (comparatively) dirt cheap.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Yes, most of them appear to have good build quality which also makes them highly desirable for a tube vendor:
> 
> 1) Fewer 'DOA' rejects from a bulk purchase
> 2) Fewer issues with returns or refunds due to infant mortality
> 3) Buy them dirt cheap, apply a 10x margin, and still sell them for (comparatively) dirt cheap.


Yep, that is the case at Watford valves, they say they are a very reliable *long life* tube.. unfortunately LOL.

Another guy that likes them is Joe's Tube Lore, I never did see the attraction, he's also the guy that said that 12AX7's are not too good audio wise, I assume because they are mainly a guitar tube which makes the distortion factor important!


----------



## UntilThen

Hello all, just came back from the snow and yes there's still snow when it's almost Summer.

Got a message from @audiargent that he is getting an Odyssey ! Congrats.  Tell us more about it.


----------



## LoryWiv

baronbeehive said:


> They make a very good rattling sound when you shake the box 👍.


GE maracas? Triode tambourine? Pentode percussion?


----------



## DecentLevi (Nov 22, 2021)

To all my friends (and enemies? LOL!  ) on the Ultrasonic thread:

I'm just checking in to say I miss hanging out here and the insights from all of you. Ideally I would be lounging on the thread and enjoying my Infinity amp, but unfortunately this has been an incredibly trying year for me with multiple pitfalls / challenges and career changes which are still ongoing, and even a setback with the amp itself - which have all kept me away for quite some time. I'm not able to disclose the circumstances which prevented me from using my amp, and the one and only person here I've told said he understands completely due to the nature of it. What I can say is that it was performance related and largely not the fault of the sponsor, but that is really as much as I can say.

Good news is that I've got a new revised amp in the planning stages, like best-of-both-worlds hybrid between Infinity and Odyssey, a unique one with a few tweaks. Will definitely update here later once anything solidifies. But for now I'm just a lurker again, occasionally checking things out when I'm able.


----------



## baronbeehive

DecentLevi said:


> I'm just a lurker again, occasionally checking things out when I'm able.


Join the club 🙂.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Good news is that I've got a new revised amp in the planning stages, like best-of-both-worlds hybrid between Infinity and Odyssey, a unique one with a few tweaks.



If it's anything like Odyssey or better, your days ahead will be golden. Odyssey will make great amps sound ordinary. It's that good.  

I start loving my HD800 again. I mean really love it. The way it sound with Odyssey.

20th May 2017 - The day I bought HD800 and Yggdrasil. Seen here with Feliks Audio Euforia that has Sylvania 6sn7w and Bendix 6080wb tubes.



26th Nov 2021 - HD800 with Odyssey and Yggdrasil. No comparison. I rather live in 2021.


----------



## UntilThen

Amidst the hustle and bustle of everyday life, my time here has dwindle to a trickle.  Life in my head-fi world almost came to a standstill. Circumstances changes. Interest rise and wane just like commodity prices. There is a constant though and that constant in these 3 months have been the sonic marvels of Odyssey with my 3 headphones.

Odyssey exhibiting sonic purity with a lot of my NOS tubes but I'm always back to these Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez. I could have been happy with any of the other combinations but these tubes just hit the right note.

Tomorrow I journey back down south and back to my rack mounted setups. Can't wait.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm home.... with my rack again.   Extreme happiness. This cave is just right for me. I have with me Odyssey and Oblivion with Denon DP-47f and Yggdrasil. Playing the new Enigma LP for the first time. Exquisite.


----------



## Shinsengumi (Nov 27, 2021)

@UntilThen I really miss you in the La Figaro thread☺️ I am quite content with La Figaro 339 and ZMF VC and likes the wide soundstage and hard hitting bass (Cetron 7236 and Mullard EF80). But I wonder how the La Figaro compares to the Oblivion. Can you give me some insights? I am a Swede so it would be nice with a Swedish amp… @SonicTrance Can I get Oblivion in same nice silver finish as UntilThen:s Odyssey?


----------



## SonicTrance

Shinsengumi said:


> Can I get Oblivion in same nice silver finish as UntilThen:s Odyssey?


Yes, not a problem.


----------



## Shinsengumi

Det var goda nyheter😉 (That’s good news)


----------



## UntilThen

Shinsengumi said:


> @UntilThen I really miss you in the La Figaro thread☺️ I am quite content with La Figaro 339 and ZMF VC and likes the wide soundstage and hard hitting bass (Cetron 7236 and Mullard EF80). But I wonder how the La Figaro compares to the Oblivion. Can you give me some insights? I am a Swede so it would be nice with a Swedish amp… @SonicTrance Can I get Oblivion in same nice silver finish as UntilThen:s Odyssey?



Thanks. When I left Hollywood they miss me too. Especially Scarlett O'Hara. Bcowen will attest to that !

I'll summarise the differences between Oblivion and La Figaro 339i because no one wants a TLDR version. By the way I only found out what TLDR means when I came to Head-Fi. It means I'll be damned if I have to read that 'War and Peace' novel.   

In a nut shell, the differences are resolution, spaciousness, airiness, clarity, details and soundstage. Yes Oblivion beats LF339 soundstage easily. Oblivion is also more balanced in the whole FR spectrum. 

Resolution, spaciousness, airiness, clarity, details and soundstage - all this contributes to superb instruments separation and gives a real insight to what 3D means. This is not my observations alone. I see similar consistent feedbacks from @Maxx134, @TheMiddleSky, @xfusion and many other owners of the Oblivion and Citadel on this thread. 

Other tangible benefits of Oblivion over LF339 are quietness (black background), a very cool amp (both temperature wise and looks  ) , no need to hunt for rare expensive tubes, quality of construction of the end product, the ability to drive low and high impedance headphones with ease, more power, better control and you can customise your Oblivion. Just tell Tomas you want it in Ferrari red or the colours of the Star Spangled Banners or the colours of Sweden.  

Lastly I have enjoyed my ZMF Verite LTD Pheasant Wood Open headphone with Oblivion. It's a great pairing. As are my LCD4, He1000se and HD800. 

Listening with HD800 and Oblivion and by George, it's good !


----------



## Shinsengumi

UntilThen said:


> Thanks. When I left Hollywood they miss me too. Especially Scarlett O'Hara. Bcowen will attest to that !
> 
> I'll summarise the differences between Oblivion and La Figaro 339i because no one wants a TLDR version. By the way I only found out what TLDR means when I came to Head-Fi. It means I'll be damned if I have to read that 'War and Peace' novel.
> 
> ...


Big thanks for your sharing your thoughts on the differences! Would you mind share your opinion on the base? Is it less impactful on Oblivion compared to La Figaro?


----------



## UntilThen

Shinsengumi said:


> Big thanks for your sharing your thoughts on the differences! Would you mind share your opinion on the base? Is it less impactful on Oblivion compared to La Figaro?



It's a different presentation on bass that's for sure. An analogy would be comparing LCD4 bass with LCD5 or Susvara. 

La Figaro has been noted for it's weighty bass presentation. Oblivion is more balanced in the frequency spectrum. Oblivion will reveal what designers of headphones want their headphones to sound. Bass is certainly not lacking on Oblivion but it's not emphasised as on some amps. I am able to clearly distinguish how the LCD4, He1000se and HD800 sound with Oblivion.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Thanks. When I left Hollywood they miss me too. Especially Scarlett O'Hara. Bcowen will attest to that !
> 
> I'll summarise the differences between Oblivion and La Figaro 339i because no one wants a TLDR version. By the way I only found out what TLDR means when I came to Head-Fi. It means I'll be damned if I have to read that 'War and Peace' novel.
> 
> ...


I don't know about Scarlett, but I know Greta Garbo misses you.  She fondly remembers the times you had together when you were both teens.


----------



## UntilThen

You mean Greta Grado? I never had a Grado headphone.


----------



## UntilThen

@Shinsengumi  there is an amp that surpass La Figaro in bass quantity and quality. It's Odyssey.   It's an afternoon with LPs for me. I always get goosebumps listening to Brothers In Arms and today it sound exceptionally good.

Denon DP-47f > Odyssey > HD800.  Who says HD800 has no bass? Got to hear it off Odyssey. Drums will make you jump and you'll look around wondering if someone else is in the room when there's no one.


----------



## Shinsengumi

UntilThen said:


> @Shinsengumi  there is an amp that surpass La Figaro in bass quantity and quality. It's Odyssey.   It's an afternoon with LPs for me. I always get goosebumps listening to Brothers In Arms and today it sound exceptionally good.
> 
> Denon DP-47f > Odyssey > HD800.  Who says HD800 has no bass? Got to hear it off Odyssey. Drums will make you jump and you'll look around wondering if someone else is in the room when there's no one.


Thanks for your guidance! I will start to save money for the Odyssey and put my soul up for sale😊


----------



## audiargent (Nov 28, 2021)

Thank you @UntilThen for the mention.

I have had a long discussion with Tomas, and finally settled for an Odessey.

I wanted to go for experimatation and tube rolling, I also wanted tube rectification.

My current experience with amplifiers is an SMSL SH-8, a Muzishare X3T (which I really loved but had a channel imbalance, so returned it) and now a Schiit Mjolnir 2 with Tesla ECC88.

My chain at present is Allo USBridge Signature to Schiit Gungnir MB to the Mjolnir 2.

My headphones are HD660s, Monolith M1570, Sash Tres - as closed version and the Hifiman HE-6SE. I like them all. Fell in love with the M1570 on tubes.

I mainly listen to country, folk, acoustic - but like my fair share of classic rock and occasional EDM that characterised my teens.

I appreciate detail, but also sound stage. I would like a low noise floor.


Within the restrictions of an "old school" design, I decided to have my Odessey with 5AR4 / 274B / 5U4GB rectifiers as well as 6SL7/6SN7 preamp tubes. For power tubes anything from KT66 up till KT170.

My initial kit will be the Tung-Sol new production 5AR4 x2, 6SL7GT x2 and KT170 x2.

Output transformers will be custom ordered Sowter. My aim is to have 10W into 50 ohms for the HE-6SE.

There will be impedance matching, 2 XLR inputs, 2 RCA inputs and XLR 4 pin as well as a 6.35.

Any suggestions, both tubes and headphones for the future, considering my musical preferences?

I plan to get an Audio-GD R8 DAC. I have plans for a Master 9 as well - to have both rube and solid state - as well as the AS-1 and the DI-20HE as a later 'project'. The Odessey will follow the aesthetic language of these Audio-GDs

Thanks!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Within the restrictions of an "old school" design, I decided to have my Odessey with 5AR4 / 274B / 5U4GB rectifiers as well as 6SL7/6SN7 preamp tubes. For power tubes anything from KT66 up till KT170.
> 
> My initial kit will be the Tung-Sol new production 5AR5 x2, 6SL7GT x2 and KT170 x2.
> 
> ...



Congrats AG. Looks like you're pretty much covered there. 10w into 50 ohms is much more powerful than Odyssey. This is Odyssey big brother.  Will this amp drive speakers as well?

Include EL34 and EL156 in your tube collection. As well as EL39, EL38, 807. The EL tubes are just as interesting as the KT tubes. With 6SL7 and 6sn7, your driver tubes will have lots of choices. 

All those tube rectifiers will serve you well and provide more tuning for you. I can't wait to see how this will turn out. I'd imagine you'll have triode / UL mode switch as well. UL will give you a lot more power.

@Sajid Amit , this is another variation of Odyssey. As you can see, it's fully customisable.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Any suggestions, both tubes and headphones for the future, considering my musical preferences?



You have to plan for the money guzzling Susvara and Abyss 1266 TC.


----------



## audiargent (Nov 28, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Congrats AG. Looks like you're pretty much covered there. 10w into 50 ohms is much more powerful than Odyssey. This is Odyssey big brother.  Will this amp drive speakers as well?
> 
> Include EL34 and EL156 in your tube collection. As well as EL39, EL38, 807. The EL tubes are just as interesting as the KT tubes. With 6SL7 and 6sn7, your driver tubes will have lots of choices.
> 
> ...


Well those are expensive headphones (Susvara and Abyss)... Maybe one day....

I was thinking of starting from the JJ repertoire, relatively inexpensive tubes... And see what tubes for which styles. That should keep me busy for quite some time!


----------



## UntilThen

Good idea. Start with current production tubes and see how you like each of the tube type tones.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Good idea. Start with current production tubes and see how you like each of the tube type tones.


Mine will be the February build! Hopefully I should be with me by March! Will definitely let you know!

It is only for headphones, buy I wanted it to be able to drive anything apart from electrostats or the ribbon headphones.

Also I assume if I use KT66 output should be significantly less than KT170... I still need to speak to Tomas on how the power output will alter...


----------



## bpiotrow13

UntilThen said:


> In a nut shell, the differences are resolution, spaciousness, airiness, clarity, details and soundstage. Yes Oblivion beats LF339 soundstage easily. Oblivion is also more balanced in the whole FR spectrum.


I thought eternity is closer to La Figaro than oblivion? Oblivion seems to me more neutral and eternity warmer, although i have not heard any of them.


----------



## UntilThen

bpiotrow13 said:


> I thought eternity is closer to La Figaro than oblivion? Oblivion seems to me more neutral and eternity warmer, although i have not heard any of them.



Probably but I have not heard Eternity.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Probably but I have not heard Eternity.


Eternity is more neutral than Elise. Wider soundstage and very detailed. It is warmer than Oblivion and Citadel but I doubt that it surpasses La Figaro.


----------



## bpiotrow13 (Nov 29, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> I doubt that it surpasses La Figaro.


Very valuable, thanks, by saying that You doubt it surpasses La Figaro You mean surpasses with what respect? Warm or soundstage/details?

Have You compared elise to La figaro?


----------



## OctavianH

bpiotrow13 said:


> Very valuable, thanks, by saying that You doubt it surpasses La Figaro You mean surpasses with what respect? Warm or soundstage/details?
> 
> Have You compared elise to La figaro?


I was thinking about warm sound level. I never heard La Figaro, but I have read about it. I think Eternity is more neutral than it. My supposition.


----------



## bpiotrow13

OctavianH said:


> I was thinking about warm sound level. I never heard La Figaro, but I have read about it. I think Eternity is more neutral than it. My supposition.


So in terms of warm sound it would be oblivion < eternity < elise/ La Figaro as I understand.


----------



## OctavianH (Nov 29, 2021)

bpiotrow13 said:


> So in terms of warm sound it would be oblivion < eternity < elise/ La Figaro as I understand.


This is what I expect but here Tomas ca help with some insights. He knows better how Eternity sounds compared with his other models (including Odyssey).


----------



## xfusion

UntilThen said:


> Bass is certainly not lacking on Oblivion but it's not emphasised as on some amps. I am able to clearly distinguish how the LCD4, He1000se and HD800 sound with Oblivion.


This is extremely true. Oblivion is a very transparent and neutral amplifier. I was amazed how easily to dissect the difference between my 4z and my newly modded LCD 3 with the Oblivion which could sound very2 similar in other amplifiers. However, if i want to have some fun and have more bass, I can just switch some tubes (inexpensive ones) and voila, more bass!. Mind you the bass in Oblivion is never lacking, infact it is a punchy performer in many regards and a very detailed one too. In headphone with strong bass like LCD 3 the Oblivion more than capable to deliver insane rumble to the headphone cup


----------



## UntilThen

xfusion said:


> Mind you the bass in Oblivion is never lacking, infact it is a punchy performer in many regards and a very detailed one too. In headphone with strong bass like LCD 3 LCD4 the Oblivion more than capable to deliver insane rumble to the headphone cup



Hey mate, fix that for you.  

I've live with LCD3 & LCD4 on Oblivion and my verdict is, it's a very good pairing. It's really about system synergy. However I have enjoyed my He1000se and HD800 with Oblivion too.

If the soundscape can be mapped to a piece of paper then the La Figaro would be A4 size while Oblivion is a A3 size. Odyssey has the same effect. The bigger tubes KT88 / EL34 have this enlarged effect compared to the 6AS7 / 5998 and once you hear it, it's hard to go back to 6as7 / 5998. My Wa22 sits in a corner untouched now.


----------



## UntilThen

Ultimately what matters to me isn't just confine to how warm or neutral an amp sound or how 3D or enlarged the soundstage. The system chain setup of mainly dac + amp + headphone must really wow me tonally.


----------



## OctavianH

When I decided which amplifier I will order I wanted the one which responds more to tube rolling than the others. Because in my opinion a flexible amplifier is the best solution to compensate between different headphones or records or even to switch to different signatures depending on the mood. In my case, if the amplifier is not flexible enough I start to roll headphones or cables and spend much more than on tubes. And I also want to keep a low number of headphones, usually different by signature.

At that time, around one year ago, while discussing with Tomas, I received the following explanation from him which I think it is useful. Odyssey was not yet existing, so it is not a part of the following answer.



> These are not old school style tube amps where the tubes are resistor loaded and have a load line which goes into the non-linear region of the tubes. The tubes are always working in their linear region thanks to the gyrator plate loads. Other design choises makes these amps have fast transient response and transparency. But, all amplification is done by the tubes! That's what tubes do best, amplify voltage. MOSFETs supply current together with the output tubes. That way all components do what they do best! There's no SS sound at all from any of these amps.
> My amps don't have "driver tubes", they have "input tubes". The input tube don't drive anything. I have source followers (grid drivers) that drives the output tube grid. So the input tubes function is only for voltage amplification. The output tubes however are working together with it's plate load (gyrator) to supply current to the load. Oblivion has some more tube flavor than Citadel and the upcoming Infinity (note: Infinity and Eternity are similar) will have even more. The output stages in Oblivion and Citadel are LTP stages with a CCS tail.
> In classic designs the input signal goes to the grid of the driver, then the anode goes to the grid of the output tube and so on. It's the same in Eternity also. The difference is that we have source followers in between that drives the output tube grid. You can read about the grid drivers on the "amps" page on my website.
> All tube rolling will have effect on the sound sig. In a classic amp the input tube "drives" the output tube. So one has to account for things like rp and other characteristics of the tube. Those things are only important in the output tubes in my amps. But, the input tube will still affect the sound!


----------



## UntilThen

Alas I cannot live with one amp.   I wanted 300b version of Odyssey and call it Enigma.  Am enjoying LCD4 with Oblivion right now after more than a week of HD800 with Odyssey. Life's good when you can alternate not just headphones but amps.  

He1000se is in the shop for headband and earpads replacement.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Alas I cannot live with one amp.   I wanted 300b version of Odyssey and call it Enigma.


I thought your 300b amp is Destiny. I'm getting old, I start to forget things.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I thought your 300b amp is Destiny. I'm getting old, I start to forget things.



Replace Destiny with Enigma.    Picture a 300b amp with Sowter transformers and Yamamoto sockets. Or a 300b amp in Oblivion chassis with covered black Lundahl mains and output transformers.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Replace Destiny with Enigma.    Picture a 300b amp with Sowter transformers and Yamamoto sockets. Or a 300b amp in Oblivion chassis with covered black Lundahl mains and output transformers.


I start to act like David Copperfield here swapping amps with amps. I guess I'll act as someone of my age making an XLS with your amps. LOL


----------



## UntilThen

Tomas is about to unveil a very exciting amp.


----------



## triod750

OctavianH said:


> I'm getting old, I start to forget things.


Maybe you forget that UntilThen is always moving on?  The End is not an option and why should it be?


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Tomas is about to unveil a very exciting amp.


Interested, hopefully more to follow on this thread. Thanks @UntilThen.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Interested, hopefully more to follow on this thread. Thanks @UntilThen.


You’re welcome Lory. This thread is amplified.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Tomas is about to unveil a very exciting amp.


Ah the 300B, at last 👍.


----------



## xfusion

UntilThen said:


> Tomas is about to unveil a very exciting amp.


Its gonna be interesting to compare the Tele..... and the Enigma . Anyway, this unveilling is going to have my utmost interest!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Ah the 300B, at last 👍.





xfusion said:


> Its gonna be interesting to compare the Tele..... and the Enigma . Anyway, this unveilling is going to have my utmost interest!



Not going to let the cat out of the bag because Tomas does have quite a few amps to unveil. It's good to see Ultrasonic Studio amp range expanding.

Enigma is still a dream because I've 2 amps here which I'm happy with. I've variations here with Odyssey and Oblivion. They are different yet have the unmistakable traits of dynamics, clarity, fast transients and soundstage. Tomas's sound signature.

Destiny is the only 300b amp I owned although I have heard quite thoroughly the WA5. I've left Destiny at home though. Only Odyssey and Oblivion is with me here. After several years of head-fi, it's obvious that the amps that appeal to me stays with me and become my daily amps. I know that Tomas's 300b amp will hit it out of the park straight away. 

Odyssey has been with me only slightly more than 3 months but it seems like a lifetime. When I heard HD800 and HD800S with Odyssey for the first time, I was quite shock at how good that combination is. I'm using Oblivion quite a lot lately too. Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez are the resident tubes in Odyssey with the GE rectifier.   I'm just in music listening mode. Spinning my 'new' LPs quite a lot as well. The gear have finally become a means to achieving what I want - listen to music. Jingle all the way, Christmas is just around the corner.


----------



## UntilThen

Once Upon a time in the West.... I saw Bcowen.


----------



## UntilThen

It's Friday night and the start of the weekend.  I've been using EL11 and EL12 spez for weeks if not months now. So tonight, I ask myself 'what if the EL tubes don't exists'. Will I still enjoy Odyssey as much. So I decided to put on affordable and available tubes.

I've got Sylvania 6SL7gt and Shuguang  KT88 with a Mullard GZ34 in triode mode, spinning Tangerine Dream 'Out of this world'. My question answered. Odyssey still sound amazing with these tubes.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Once Upon a time in the West.... I saw Bcowen.


The Good, the Bad, or the Ugly 🙂.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> It's Friday night and the start of the weekend.  I've been using EL11 and EL12 spez for weeks if not months now. So tonight, I ask myself 'what if the EL tubes don't exists'. Will I still enjoy Odyssey as much. So I decided to put on affordable and available tubes.
> 
> I've got Sylvania 6SL7gt and Shuguang  KT88 with a Mullard GZ34 in triode mode, spinning Tangerine Dream 'Out of this world'. My question answered. Odyssey still sound amazing with these tubes.


I like Tangerine Dream, only problem is all their albums sound the same to me 🙄.


----------



## NickT23

Where do you guys get all the money to afford all these ?


----------



## UntilThen

I'm a professional golfer and I pay my caddy (Bcowen) $1.25 an hour. That helps me stay in this hobby which is so very exciting. Sense of hearing and hearing good stuff is the best aphrodisiac.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I like Tangerine Dream, only problem is all their albums sound the same to me 🙄.



How about Thriller then?


----------



## Zachik

NickT23 said:


> Where do you guys get all the money to afford all these ?


We live in our mom's basement, get free food from her fridge, and drive around in her 30 year old Chevy...


----------



## UntilThen

My basement missing the fridge.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> My basement missing the fridge.


Just love the psychedelic lighting.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> How about Thriller then?


I only played it a couple of days ago 👍.

... which is just as well because it looks like you've been raiding my collection again while I wasn't looking 🙂.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> It's Friday night and the start of the weekend.  I've been using EL11 and EL12 spez for weeks if not months now. So tonight, I ask myself 'what if the EL tubes don't exists'. Will I still enjoy Odyssey as much. So I decided to put on affordable and available tubes.
> 
> I've got Sylvania 6SL7gt and Shuguang  KT88 with a Mullard GZ34 in triode mode, spinning Tangerine Dream 'Out of this world'. My question answered. Odyssey still sound amazing with these tubes.



What ?  EL Tubes must always exist...always


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Not going to let the cat out of the bag because Tomas does have quite a few amps to unveil. It's good to see Ultrasonic Studio amp range expanding.
> 
> Enigma is still a dream because I've 2 amps here which I'm happy with. I've variations here with Odyssey and Oblivion. They are different yet have the unmistakable traits of dynamics, clarity, fast transients and soundstage. Tomas's sound signature.
> 
> ...


I have a dream of a 300B amplifier in two chassis, 300B*2, 6SN7*2 and 274B*2, and was almost going to build it. 

However, I felt a bit restricted with tube choices.  And also 300Bs as tubes are more expensive, and so difficult to choose!

So decided to go full tube rolling and Tomas will be building me an Odyssey 

I hope all that tube rolling options will still allow a great sound!

Thinking of getting some ZMF Vérité to accompany the amp.

It's strange how I am willing to spend more on amps and DACs then headphones...

I seem to like those M1570s so much...

Even the HE-6SE, though more detailed is not a match to the midrange....

The SASH Tres are another good pair I like. I have them in Semi-Open right now. A bit V shaped, which I like, quite detailed (more than the M1570 and HD660s) and I hope will benefit from tube warmth).


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> What ?  EL Tubes must always exist...always



Righto. Odyssey's composition is KT and EL. One can't do without the other.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> I have a dream of a 300B amplifier in two chassis, 300B*2, 6SN7*2 and 274B*2, and was almost going to build it.



A 300b amp and Odyssey will always be complimentary. The trade off between the king of midrange and the queen of treble and linearity is a hard choice !

You'll be well served with a fully tuneable Odyssey. KT88 sounds really good now in the amp. Will leave it in there for a few weeks.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I only played it a couple of days ago 👍.
> 
> ... which is just as well because it looks like you've been raiding my collection again while I wasn't looking 🙂.



But do you have the Piano Man ? I've only played this LP once.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> The Good, the Bad, or the Ugly 🙂.


Yes.


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> We live in our mom's basement, get free food from her fridge, and drive around in her 30 year old Chevy...


You too?  I thought that was just me.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I'm a professional golfer and I pay my caddy (Bcowen) $1.25 an hour. That helps me stay in this hobby which is so very exciting. Sense of hearing and hearing good stuff is the best aphrodisiac.


Please don't refer to me and use the word _aphrodisiac_ in the same post.  It looks weird.


----------



## UntilThen

Finally I get to test Odyssey with He6se V2. Yup I bought this headphone off someone who took care of it by wrapping a plastic on the headband.   He threw in a silver cable and the headphone is as good as new. One year old.

So what the verdict? Three questions needs answering. 
1) Can Odyssey drive this power hungry headphone? You bet. Belt it like a kid. He6se needs a powerful tube amp to give it the body tone and make it analogue sounding.  Odyssey has a lot more headroom driving He6se. I'm only at half max power and it hits the crescendo. Anymore and the planar drivers will fly out.
2) How does He6se sound? Ummm my kind of tone. Treble clear, dynamic, agile and tight punchy kind of bass. Odyssey is the right amp to drive it. I like it !
3) Can Oblivion drive it? You bet ! Volume at 2pm and it's loud. Any louder and you have to see a ear specialist. He6se sound great out of Oblivion. @TheMiddleSky is correct. Oblivion will drive Susvara. 

That's all for now folks. Got to go for dinner !


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Finally I get to test Odyssey with He6se V2. Yup I bought this headphone off someone who took care of it by wrapping a plastic on the headband.   He threw in a silver cable and the headphone is as good as new. One year old.
> 
> So what the verdict? Three questions needs answering.
> 1) Can Odyssey drive this power hungry headphone? You bet. Belt it like a kid. He6se needs a powerful tube amp to give it the body tone and make it analogue sounding.  Odyssey has a lot more headroom driving He6se. I'm only at half max power and it hits the crescendo. Anymore and the planar drivers will fly out.
> ...


We seem to have similar likes in headphones and soon amps. I really like the level of detail.

Open it up, and use some perforated leather pad. You will lose a tad detail but get better staging according to my ear.

Glad to hear Odyssey can drive it well!


----------



## NickT23

audiargent said:


> We seem to have similar likes in headphones and soon amps. I really like the level of detail.
> 
> Open it up, and use some perforated leather pad. You will lose a tad detail but get better staging according to my ear.
> 
> Glad to hear Odyssey can drive it well!


Hello is that Odyssey a Single Ended Triode ?


----------



## UntilThen

NickT23 said:


> Hello is that Odyssey a Single Ended Triode ?


Yes. A SET transformer coupled amp.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> But do you have the Piano Man ? I've only played this LP once.


NO.. I wondered what happened to it 🙂.


----------



## NickT23

SonicTrance said:


> I prefer my amp to be transparent, fast and detailed while keeping the holographic soundstage. Not slow and goey "tube sound".


Hi yes same here. A much more reference sound while giving that tube ephony, that warm engaging sound, add that realism energy there as well.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> We seem to have similar likes in headphones and soon amps. I really like the level of detail.
> 
> Open it up, and use some perforated leather pad. You will lose a tad detail but get better staging according to my ear.
> 
> Glad to hear Odyssey can drive it well!



It's madness. I was thinking of Odyssey driving He6se all through dinner last night. This morning when I woke up the first thing I wanted to do is to relive that experience again. I had heard the He6se before with other amps but never with such energy and realism. There are no sharp rugged edginess here. It's a smooth polished performance with fast transients, details and concert hall realism.


----------



## UntilThen

As dawn breaks, I listen to a live version of Private Investigations. Another day in the life of UntilThen begins.   He6se is certainly the best value for money headphone at $850 aussie dollars with free silver cable, burned in and plastic headband wrap thrown in.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> As dawn breaks, I listen to a live version of Private Investigations. Another day in the life of UntilThen begins.   He6se is certainly the best value for money headphone at $850 aussie dollars with free silver cable, burned in and plastic headband wrap thrown in.


Get this.  It's one of the best recorded LP's in my collection, and better even than many "audiophile" pressings I have. 

You save twice this much every week on what my salary _should_ be, so no whining about the cost.


----------



## UntilThen

That album is 2/3 the price of this He6se V2. !!!


----------



## UntilThen

Showing off the new toy. Eva Cassidy 'Somewhere over the rainbow' sound really good !


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> That album is 2/3 the price of this He6se V2. !!!


Yeah, well I paid $20 for mine brand new.  Snooze you lose.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> burned in and plastic headband wrap thrown in.


When are you going to finally get rid of the plastic wrap headband? Geez...


----------



## UntilThen

There.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> There.


Guilty as charged.

Can't wait to hear them on Odyssey. 

The Mjolnir 2 is 5W into 60 ohms, I think. 

Odyssey wil be, as minimum more than double that.

With the flexibility of tube rolling and those massive Sowter output transformers.

Hopefully I will not be disappointed!


----------



## UntilThen

I had Mjolnir 2 before. It will drive He6se but wait till you hear Odyssey driving He6se. Immaculate control and tonally in a different class. From here on just add headphones.  There is no doubt in my mind now that Odyssey will drive any headphones including Susvara. Not just drive but bring out the best in them.


----------



## UntilThen

Where do you buy that grill for your He6se? Is it easy to swap over. Also the earpads. Where do you buy them?


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Where do you buy that grill for your He6se? Is it easy to swap over. Also the earpads. Where do you buy them?


The grill I got from a gentleman off Reddit. He had some extra after modifying his and offered to send them to me.

The pads I bought off eBay. They are perforated real leather and also bought the necessary adapter rings. I think, to my ears they are a bit of an upgrade.

It is not difficult at all to remove the grill. There is a black plastic retention rings, which you can get under, unless you have very short fingernails. It's very easy indeed.

The pads needed a bit more work. I broke one of the plastic rings, but they still fit and seal well and do not wobble.

Thanks, even more excited. Will aim to pair it with some R2R DAC likley an Audio-GD. I even followed that design language.


----------



## UntilThen

I had almost forgotten that I had Telefunken EL156 tubes until Octavarian brought it up. So in it goes into Odyssey and see what these capsules can do with He6se. 

 Now the drums are out of this world. EL156 reminds me of 300b tubes where the midst grabs you by the throat and the bass extends low with the high frequencies parting the Red Sea. I turn to my fav War On Drugs 'Pain' and 'Holding On' finishing off with 'Strangest Things'. What a way to ease into Monday night.


----------



## UntilThen

Superb. The EL156 drives the He6se so well. It's worth everyone of 4 hundred dollars I spend on the used pair. These tubes are like the dinosaurs. It's almost extinct !


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Superb. The EL156 drives the He6se so well. It's worth everyone of 4 hundred dollars I spend on the used pair. These tubes are like the dinosaurs. It's almost extinct !


Dinosaurs are still in Australia? Not you,…


----------



## UntilThen

Dinosaurs have been preserved as NOS.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Dinosaurs have been preserved as NOS.


New old species?


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> New old species?


Technically new old species is correct.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Technically Paleontologically, new old species is correct.


Not just fixed…reconstructed…TFY (no copyright)


----------



## UntilThen

My weekend with Odyssey + He6se V2. Love this combination.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> My weekend with Odyssey + He6se V2. Love this combination.


Nice!  And that's a sweet looking wartime VT-229 front and center. What's the tube behind it?


----------



## triod750

bcowen said:


> What's the tube behind it?


I don't think you really want to know that  .


----------



## bcowen

triod750 said:


> I don't think you really want to know that  .


I bet even @UntilThen doesn't know without going to look at it.


----------



## OctavianH

Hmm, a rectifier?


----------



## triod750

OctavianH said:


> Hmm, a rectifier?


I guess it is a GEctifier.


----------



## bcowen

triod750 said:


> I guess it is a GEctifier.


Then it would be called a wreckedifier.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Nice!  And that's a sweet looking wartime VT-229 front and center. What's the tube behind it?



That VT-229 is your recommendation and the tube behind is a Mullard gz34.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> That VT-229 is your recommendation and the tube behind is a Mullard gz34.


Do you like it (the Sylvania)?

I'll assume you like the Mullard.   I'm not a big Mullard fanboy myself, but I really *do* like their rectifiers...using a pair of GZ37's (CV378) in my Jota amp currently.


----------



## UntilThen

Love the Sylvania 6sl7. They are as good as my other Brimar, GE red base and Tung Sol 6sl7. Just different flavours. Sylvania are very clear and cutting edge.

Mullard rectifiers are very good !


----------



## DecentLevi (Dec 12, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> When I received Eternity people asked to come back after some time and tell them what I think about it.
> So I wrote a few words about it and, overall, about my experience with UltraSonic Studios.
> It is not a review, more the story of my purchase and how I see it after around 3 weeks of use.
> If someone is interested, the file is attached.
> ...


Octa, just got around to reading your casual impressions - from 7 months ago no less, look at how busy I am! And starting tomorrow working 7 days a week.

Firstly I was impressed by your system! You seem humble for someone touting an Mscaler + TT2 with Neotech NEI-2001 UPOCC interconnects! I actually have a custom NEI-2001 cable as well thanks to advice from our old friend Hypnos1, but the rest of my system is in flux DAC-wise, I did have a Qutest which I miss (with custom linear DC PSU); it would be astounding if DACs could get any better than this! I was also surprised that it seems you only have one pair of headphones. For me I often 'roll' headphones and cables which can be an enjoyable alternative to tube rolling for a change of sound signature. With enough headphones on hand you can even make the same 'bad' tube combo sound good sometimes.

You had a lot of interesting points in there and things I agree on like a fairly flat sound preference with a slight nod to warmth, and I also often like a liquid like sound. For the limited time I got to try an Ultrasonic amp before I also had an odd experience of adjusting to a different type of presentation. By definition superior with elements such as instrument separation and sense of 'air', but an A/B to your old equipment can make you have a preference for the former in some way; it takes time for brain burn-in to realize the newer one really is better.

So KT77 are your favorite powers here? You only tried GEC, right? I remember many / all who tried this tube class on Feliks Audio amps held it as a favorite as well. But what about larger successors like KT120, 150 or the others mentioned recently by UT... EL158 or the monster KT170's any plans to try those? Of course YMMV using different amps.


----------



## UntilThen

I believe in 3 tube amps and 5 headphones. 😀


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> I believe in 3 tube amps and 5 headphones. 😀


That makes me a zealot:  5 & 12…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> That makes me a zealot:  5 & 12…



Check into AA now without delay.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> You had a lot of interesting points in there and things *I agree on like a fairly flat sound preference with a slight nod to warmth, and I also often like a liquid like sound.* For the limited time I got to try an Ultrasonic amp before I also had an odd experience of adjusting to a different type of presentation. By definition superior with elements such as instrument separation and sense of 'air', but an A/B to your old equipment can make you have a preference for the former in some way; it takes time for brain burn-in to realize the newer one really is better.
> 
> So KT77 are your favorite powers here? You only tried GEC, right? I remember many / all who tried this tube class on Feliks Audio amps held it as a favorite as well. But what about larger successors like KT120, 150 or the others mentioned recently by UT... EL158 or the monster KT170's any plans to try those? Of course YMMV using different amps.



On your statement above in bold, Odyssey is all that and more. I wouldn't call it fairly flat sound because Odyssey has the Berocca Bounce which gives the lift in every frequency spectrum. Slight warm - checked ; liquid - checked ; revealing high frequency - checked ; kick ass bass - checked ; to die for midrange - you have to ask?

Now for the best part. Which is the best tube on Odyssey. Every power tubes that you can use on it. Mainly KT88, EL34. EL12 spez is special. EL39 is ungodly. KT150 and EL156 - supreme being. 807 - cheap and good. 6550 - one of a kind. 

That said Odyssey is the only amp where I stopped looking for more as I regard it as the ultimate amp. Quiet on low impedance headphone like the He1000se, cool, powers any headphones including the He6se and drives speakers. What more do you want? Short of making your morning breakfast, it does everything.


----------



## OctavianH

DecentLevi said:


> Octa, just got around to reading your casual impressions - from 7 months ago no less, look at how busy I am! And starting tomorrow working 7 days a week.
> 
> So KT77 are your favorite powers here? You only tried GEC, right? I remember many / all who tried this tube class on Feliks Audio amps held it as a favorite as well. But what about larger successors like KT120, 150 or the others mentioned recently by UT... EL158 or the monster KT170's any plans to try those? Of course YMMV using different amps.


Yes, for me GEC KT77 were the best on Eternity but they were sounding very different from what I heard on Elise when I tried them. Elise being a warm and less detailed amplifier, was not a good pair for these. At that time I tried the GEC KT77 and russian Gold Lions KT77 and neither were in my preferences. Here they are different, and I started to listen to KT77 or EL34 constantly. But I have to mention here that my impressions are biased by the type of sound I am looking for. For rock EL34 is the king and KT77 is a kind of premium EL34 for me. For classical I would go for KT88 and for soft acoustic music for KT66. So what to say, there is no general answer. Everyone has to search for its own sound signature. The good part is that the amplifier is flexible enough to let you find it.

I never tried KT120, but I have a pair of KT150 and I did not liked them on Elise and neither on Eternity. A kind of muscular synthetic sound. Maybe this is good for electronic music but for me this was definitely nothing I was searching for. So my pair is for sale and KT170 is not on the priority list because I have a feeling will sound the same.


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey is 4 months old today. Seems like a lifetime now.   In the 6 years of Head-Fi, this item is most precious to me. Many thanks to Tomas for creating this amp for me. When I approach him to do this amp, I have no idea how it will turn out. All I know is that I have collected a bunch of tubes that I know will sound good because I heard them in the Elekit TU-8200. It was a no expense spared built. I was even prepared to go with pure silver wires for the internals but Tomas told me that is not necessary the desired outcome. Every step of the way, I trusted his judgement because he knows. When I first heard it I was quite shocked and surprised. I was genuinely impressed. So after 4 months, I am still very much impressed every time I sit down for a listen. He6se V2 is more than a week with me now. I am totally in love with this amp and headphone combination. Alas I know the next step has to be the Susvara because I know now that Odyssey will drive Susvara very well.

So here it is - Odyssey at 4 months old. It arrived on the 13th August 2021.


----------



## Magol79

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey is 4 months old today. Seems like a lifetime now.   In the 6 years of Head-Fi, this item is most precious to me. Many thanks to Tomas for creating this amp for me. When I approach him to do this amp, I have no idea how it will turn out. All I know is that I have collected a bunch of tubes that I know will sound good because I heard them in the Elekit TU-8200. It was a no expense spared built. I was even prepared to go with pure silver wires for the internals but Tomas told me that is not necessary the desired outcome. Every step of the way, I trusted his judgement because he knows. When I first heard it I was quite shocked and surprised. I was genuinely impressed. So after 4 months, I am still very much impressed every time I sit down for a listen. He6se V2 is more than a week with me now. I am totally in love with this amp and headphone combination. Alas I know the next step has to be the Susvara because I know now that Odyssey will drive Susvara very well.
> 
> So here it is - Odyssey at 4 months old. It arrived on the 13th August 2021.


Since today is Lucia day in Sweden, some nice tube glow from Odyssey is really fitting.


----------



## UntilThen

How very interesting. I just found out about Lucia day. Festival of lights. I should power on all my tube amps.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> How very interesting. I just found out about Lucia day. Festival of lights. I should power on all my tube amps.


Then you should put this on the turntable…


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> On your statement above in bold, Odyssey is all that and more. I wouldn't call it fairly flat sound because Odyssey has the Berocca Bounce which gives the lift in every frequency spectrum. Slight warm - checked ; liquid - checked ; revealing high frequency - checked ; kick ass bass - checked ; to die for midrange - you have to ask?
> 
> Now for the best part. Which is the best tube on Odyssey. Every power tubes that you can use on it. Mainly KT88, EL34. EL12 spez is special. EL39 is ungodly. KT150 and EL156 - supreme being. 807 - cheap and good. 6550 - one of a kind.
> 
> That said Odyssey is the only amp where I stopped looking for more as I regard it as the ultimate amp. Quiet on low impedance headphone like the He1000se, cool, powers any headphones including the He6se and drives speakers. What more do you want? Short of making your morning breakfast, it does everything.


Lucky person 🙂👍.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Short of making your morning breakfast, it does everything.


I'm sure sonic is working on that for his next iteration as we speak 🤣.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> My weekend with Odyssey + He6se V2. Love this combination.


Those are a set of KT88s I am interested in! How do they sound?

And can I get some night shots? 

Also, seeing you also have an LCD-4. How do they sound on the Odyssey?

Would you say they are far better than the HE-6SE V2? How would they compare on Odyssey?


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> That makes me a zealot:  5 & 12…


2 and 1.. and 1 (speakers)... with an unnatural urge for the HiFiMan 1000SE for their soundstage.

Suppose that makes me some kind of nut 🥴.


----------



## baronbeehive

audiargent said:


> Those are a set of KT88s I am interested in! How do they sound?
> 
> And can I get some night shots?
> 
> ...


There is an easy way of finding out.. ask him how long he's had each piece of kit!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Those are a set of KT88s I am interested in! How do they sound?
> 
> And can I get some night shots?
> 
> ...



I shall reply when I get home. Night shot is a few posts up above.

LCD4 and He6se are like Ying and Yang. I will expand on that tonight.


----------



## OctavianH

If someone wants an Oblivion in North America, now is the time to buy it:
https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/ultrasonic-studios-oblivion-tube-hybrid-amplifier.16307/


----------



## UntilThen

That's a good buy. If not for Odyssey I would have spend more time with Oblivion.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright @audiargent let's answer your questions but first I got distracted when I power on Oblivion and start listening with LCD4 which I have not use for a few weeks. Both amp and headphone. Mate this is a very good pairing. Oblivion just opens up LCD4 more and gives it a lot more air and space. 

Question 1 : How do KT88 sound? In everything there is a base reference when describing sound. Where EL34 is more relaxed and euphonic, KT88 is more aggressive, tighter and less warm than EL34. In Odyssey that is biased on KT88, you get the best of everything because you get to use these 2 very contrasting power tubes. In essence you could have just gone with these tubes and you will be very happy. These tubes have very nice and expensive NOS variety. I didn't get the GEC KT88 because it's a brand new pair and I know if I were to buy it, I'll end up keeping it.  However I did have some nice NOS EL34. The metal base and the Philips Miniwatt EL34 xf2. That's enough. On top of that I have the Telefunken EL12 spez and that is a very special tube. Absolutely gorgeous sound. I even prefer it over the EL34 metal base but not by much.

Psvane KT88 Tii sounds just like a KT88 but it's also smooth. Without any ragged edges. I like it enough not to have to spend on the GEC KT88. Of course if I get to hear the GEC, I would probably reshuffle my preference.  

Comparing LCD4 and He6se. Prior to He6se arrival, my 2 main headphones are He1000se and LCD4. These could not have been more contrasting. I chose them because they are like ying and yang. He1000se is very open and airy with a top end bite. Some will find it too much but when I listen to He1000se with Odyssey, the combination is just right. Tube amps does wonders. LCD4 is more dense and has a thicker texture but it has very good clarity. Bass is where I fell in love with this headphone. LCD-3f bass has more bloom whereas LCD4 bass is tighter. However when you compare LCD4 bass with He6se then you will find LCD4 bass has more bloom whereas bass on the He6se is tighter and obviously without any bloom. He6se is in some ways similar to He1000se but He6se is tighter and punchier than He1000se. More tight fisted slam. I do have a preference for headphones that are revealing, airier and with a very good soundstage. So at this point I prefer He6se and He1000se over LCD4 but on some bass tracks that's where LCD4 shines. Vocals are lovely on the LCD4.

When you get Odyssey (also Oblivion) you will find that headphones responds very well with those amps. You will end up having several headphones. Now I have HD800, He1000se, LCD4 and He6se v2. Probably stop here while I enjoy them. I am thinking of Susvara though to replace them all.


----------



## UntilThen

One more low light photography of Odyssey with my headphones. He1000se is with Minidisc for head strap and earpads replacement.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Alright @audiargent let's answer your questions but first I got distracted when I power on Oblivion and start listening with LCD4 which I have not use for a few weeks. Both amp and headphone. Mate this is a very good pairing. Oblivion just opens up LCD4 more and gives it a lot more air and space.
> 
> Question 1 : How do KT88 sound? In everything there is a base reference when describing sound. Where EL34 is more relaxed and euphonic, KT88 is more aggressive, tighter and less warm than EL34. In Odyssey that is biased on KT88, you get the best of everything because you get to use these 2 very contrasting power tubes. In essence you could have just gone with these tubes and you will be very happy. These tubes have very nice and expensive NOS variety. I didn't get the GEC KT88 because it's a brand new pair and I know if I were to buy it, I'll end up keeping it.  However I did have some nice NOS EL34. The metal base and the Philips Miniwatt EL34 xf2. That's enough. On top of that I have the Telefunken EL12 spez and that is a very special tube. Absolutely gorgeous sound. I even prefer it over the EL34 metal base but not by much.
> 
> ...


Great comments, interesting to see where you're at atm with these comparisons. Very informative!


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Alright @audiargent let's answer your questions but first I got distracted when I power on Oblivion and start listening with LCD4 which I have not use for a few weeks. Both amp and headphone. Mate this is a very good pairing. Oblivion just opens up LCD4 more and gives it a lot more air and space.
> 
> Question 1 : How do KT88 sound? In everything there is a base reference when describing sound. Where EL34 is more relaxed and euphonic, KT88 is more aggressive, tighter and less warm than EL34. In Odyssey that is biased on KT88, you get the best of everything because you get to use these 2 very contrasting power tubes. In essence you could have just gone with these tubes and you will be very happy. These tubes have very nice and expensive NOS variety. I didn't get the GEC KT88 because it's a brand new pair and I know if I were to buy it, I'll end up keeping it.  However I did have some nice NOS EL34. The metal base and the Philips Miniwatt EL34 xf2. That's enough. On top of that I have the Telefunken EL12 spez and that is a very special tube. Absolutely gorgeous sound. I even prefer it over the EL34 metal base but not by much.
> 
> ...


Can't have been more helpful. Will keep my watch on any LCD-4s then! 

I was thinking of doing a full PSVANE TII set with 274Bs, KT88s or 6CA7s and CV-181s.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> I was thinking of doing a full PSVANE TII set with 274Bs, KT88s or 6CA7s and CV-181s.



Low light photography on a complete set of Psvane TII will be quite something. I did not expect that tube to turn out that way in timed exposure.


----------



## OctavianH

Ah, Psvanes with orange base. I like them. I also made some pictures with them. Here KT88-TII with CV181-TII.


----------



## Zachik

OctavianH said:


> If someone wants an Oblivion in North America, now is the time to buy it:
> https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/ultrasonic-studios-oblivion-tube-hybrid-amplifier.16307/


If not for my upcoming crazy TOTL amp (by @A2029) - I would have been all over it...


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> Ah, Psvanes with orange base. I like them. I also made some pictures with them. Here KT88-TII with CV181-TII.


That Eternity does still look fabulous, any updates on SQ? This is the model I'm most interested in. Nice mirror finish on the volume knob 🙂.


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> If not for my upcoming crazy TOTL amp (by @A2029) - I would have been all over it...


When is that happening?


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Nice mirror finish on the volume knob 🙂


Just remember to have your pants on when you take a photo.


----------



## OctavianH (Dec 14, 2021)

baronbeehive said:


> That Eternity does still look fabulous, any updates on SQ? This is the model I'm most interested in. Nice mirror finish on the volume knob 🙂.


I do not think I can add more about it. After reading more and more about what others report I realize all these UltraSonic amplifiers have a common house sound. So a clean and detailed sound with a wide soundstage. No harsnhess, nothing grainy, I can call it a natural sound. And on top of this, small variations based on the model. Eternity I guess is the most coloured one, with the most distortion compared with the balanced models, but still, it remains somewhere between SS and classical tube designs borrowing the speed of the discrete components and some harmonics and euphony of a tube design. I do not think you can go wrong with it, it is close to neutral, clean, fast and responsive enough to rolling to be able to add a flavour you desire based on your other gear or musical preferences. One of the qualities I have started to appreciate more and more on an amplifier is flexibility. The ability to tune it so it will mask some flaws in the recording or enhance synergy with a specific headphone. Many users here prefer to collect several amplifiers and many pairs of headphones and just roll between them. I prefer to have one amplifier which is flexible and maybe 1-2 headphones and to adjust the signature based on my needs. Different approaches for the same thing, in my case the more equipment I gather, the more unused pairs I have because I tend to use only the one I consider the best.


UntilThen said:


> Just remember to have your pants on when you take a photo.


Judging by the fact that Eternity sits on my working desk, I doubt I will have that problem. I have a boring job but it is not related to web chatting. LOL

Later Edit: When I was referring at a common house sound I was taken into consideration Oblivion, Citadel, Infinity and Eternity. Odyssey is a different animal, as far as I know that one is a classic tube design with some quality components. So that one might be in a different category.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Eternity sits on my working desk


How sad to be working for eternity.  

Odyssey sits on my rack !


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> I do not think you can go wrong with it, it is close to neutral, clean, fast and responsive enough to rolling to be able to add a flavour you desire based on your other gear or musical preferences.


👍.


OctavianH said:


> One of the qualities I have started to appreciate more and more on an amplifier is flexibility. The ability to tune it so it will mask some flaws in the recording or enhance synergy with a specific headphone. Many users here prefer to collect several amplifiers and many pairs of headphones and just roll between them.* I prefer to have one amplifier which is flexible and maybe 1-2 headphones and to adjust the signature based on my needs.* Different approaches for the same thing, in my case the more equipment I gather, the more unused pairs I have because I tend to use only the one I consider the best.


That's my preference, less to think about, less knobs to twiddle, just you and the music to enjoy! I appreciate hearing others views though and their various equipment choices.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> How sad to be working for eternity.
> 
> Odyssey sits on my rack !


Could be worse.. working as your caddie 🙂.


----------



## rollinbr

UntilThen said:


> Alright @audiargent let's answer your questions but first I got distracted when I power on Oblivion and start listening with LCD4 which I have not use for a few weeks. Both amp and headphone. Mate this is a very good pairing. Oblivion just opens up LCD4 more and gives it a lot more air and space.
> 
> Question 1 : How do KT88 sound? In everything there is a base reference when describing sound. Where EL34 is more relaxed and euphonic, KT88 is more aggressive, tighter and less warm than EL34. In Odyssey that is biased on KT88, you get the best of everything because you get to use these 2 very contrasting power tubes. In essence you could have just gone with these tubes and you will be very happy. These tubes have very nice and expensive NOS variety. I didn't get the GEC KT88 because it's a brand new pair and I know if I were to buy it, I'll end up keeping it.  However I did have some nice NOS EL34. The metal base and the Philips Miniwatt EL34 xf2. That's enough. On top of that I have the Telefunken EL12 spez and that is a very special tube. Absolutely gorgeous sound. I even prefer it over the EL34 metal base but not by much.
> 
> ...


So Matt, tell me how you feel about the EL156 tubes when you use them in Odyssey!


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> Could be worse.. working as your caddie 🙂.


Looking for lost balls for eternity (not the amp!)…😰


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> When is that happening?


Initial ETA was 12/2021 but "thanks" to Sowter screwing-up my OPT order - not before 3/2022


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Just remember to have your pants on when you take a photo.


…you don’t want to forever capture the wrong knob…😳


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Initial ETA was 12/2021 but "thanks" to Sowter screwing-up my OPT order - not before 3/2022


Sowter is worth waiting for.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Sowter is worth waiting for.


The jury is (obviously) still out on this one...


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> The jury is (obviously) still out on this one...



What do the jury know   


Carnhill Transformers – U.K.
CineMag Transformers – U.S.A.
Crimson Transformers – U.S.A.
EDCOR Transformers – U.S.A.
Jensen Transformers – U.S.A.
Hammond Manufacturing – Canada
Lundahl Transformers – Sweden
Sowter Transformers   – U.K.


----------



## OctavianH

baronbeehive said:


> That's my preference, less to think about, less knobs to twiddle, just you and the music to enjoy! I appreciate hearing others views though and their various equipment choices.


In that case you want automatic bias. Manual bias is fine, as long as you are fine with measuring some voltages and reading some datasheets.


----------



## UntilThen

rollinbr said:


> So Matt, tell me how you feel about the EL156 tubes when you use them in Odyssey!



I need to revisit EL156, KT88 and EL34 again. So give me about 2 hours. Dr Zhivago will find out.


----------



## UntilThen

In the last 2 months I did very little tube rolling. For a spell, I was using my Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez and loving it. In the last 2 weeks after the arrival of the He6se, I started using the Shuguang and Psvane KT88. Love those especially the latter.

Today after Brian's question about the EL156, I decided to compare the KT88 with the EL156 and EL34 metal base.

First up is the Telefunken EL156. Coming straight from the Psvane KT88 Tii, I was really taken aback at how hard hitting the EL156 is. There's no bloat but a tight coherent sound that makes Mark Knopfler's guitar comes alive. EL156 is certainly more powerful than the KT88 as evidence by the volume knob position. He6se sounded electrified. EL156 sounded like the EL34 metal base on steroids. Every instruments are very clear, full and truer. Remember no bloat or bloom here but a very audiophile tone. Bass notes are very deep and haunting and top end extension are superb.

Next I plug the Philip Miniwatt EL34 metal base in. I was blown away again. It's been a while since I use these tubes and I really don't know why because they go almost toe to toe with with EL156. Just a shade tighter and more precise. Tube euphony is top of the class. 

In terms of preference of tubes, it's EL156, EL34 and KT88. However I wonder if that order will change if I had GEC KT88. There's no doubt that the *NOS* Telefunken EL156 and EL34 metal base live up to the praise and love from owners who had them. They are that special.


----------



## UntilThen

Not only do they sound good but the EL156 presents a beautiful glow.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm currently using these Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base. Incredible sounding tubes and their tube glow are even more beautiful than the EL156.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> There's no doubt that the *NOS* Telefunken EL156 and EL34 metal base live up to the praise and love from owners who had them. They are that special.


This is a good amp idea: one built for EL156 with quality sockets to accomodate these natively. If they sound as good as you say, I'll order it in a few years time.
Ah, Jacmusic has Yamamoto for them:





Good, good. I like the idea.


----------



## UntilThen (Dec 15, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> This is a good amp idea: one built for EL156 with quality sockets to accomodate these natively. If they sound as good as you say, I'll order it in a few years time.
> Ah, Jacmusic has Yamamoto for them:



I have those exact same sockets for my EL11 drivers. The best sockets bar none. If I use that sockets in the power slots then I cannot use the other octal pins power tubes.  Going with Yamamoto's sockets was the right decision. Tomas ordered the Yamamoto sockets from Jacmusic.


----------



## UntilThen

Get Tomas to build an Odyssey biased on the EL156 and I would love to hear that. Finding these tubes is a problem.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Get Tomas to build an Odyssey biased on the EL156 and I would love to hear that. Finding these tubes is a problem.


I'll let others try that. The reason I have chosen UltraSonic studios was the modern approach on tube design. A classic design is not on my radar.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> …you don’t want to forever capture the wrong knob *component*…😳


Cleaned that up for you 👍.


----------



## whirlwind (Dec 15, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I have those exact same sockets for my EL11 drivers. The best sockets bar none. If I use that sockets in the power slots then I cannot use the other octal pins power tubes.  Going with Yamamoto's sockets was the right decision. Tomas ordered the Yamamoto sockets from Jacmusic.



These sockets are expensive as all get out, but the quality is fantastic.  I have them in my EL3N amp and for those crazy side pins, these are a must as there are not tons of options for those sockets and the cheaper ones the contacts were just not up to snuff, LOL.

UT.....tell me about the sound of the HE6.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> UT.....tell me about the sound of the HE6.



It's the other spectrum of the LCD4. Tighter, leaner and airier with a ham fisted punch. It's like a trim pugilist martial artist (He6se) fighting against a heavyweight boxer (LCD4).


----------



## UntilThen

Came back to Sydney for 3 weeks for Christmas break and brought Odyssey with me. Left Yggdrasil and Oblivion back in Canberra. Here I have NAD M51, Odyssey and Destiny with He6se V2 and LCD4. That will see me through the New Year.

I started tonight listening with Destiny (300b amp from McChanson) and He6se. It's a wall of sound compared to the precision and cutting edge definition of Odyssey. Prior to Odyssey arrival, I love the tone of Destiny but now I'm spoilt rotten by the fidelity of Odyssey. The difference is so great, I power off Destiny after 20 minutes and connected Odyssey and viola the magic is back.  

A earlier picture taken of the 2 amps.


----------



## UntilThen

Finally put up the Christmas tree. Wishing you all happy holidays ahead. I know... it's hard with these Covid times but at least we have our music to enjoy at home.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Finally put up the Christmas tree. Wishing you all happy holidays ahead. I know... it's hard with these Covid times but at least we have our music to enjoy at home.


And to you as well, @UntilThen .  Hope everyone has a joyous holiday season with their loved ones.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> And to you as well, @UntilThen .  Hope everyone has a joyous holiday season with their loved ones.



Thanks Bill for a year of jest. Life would not be as interesting and happier without you and I mean it.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Thanks Bill for a year of jest. Life would not be as interesting and happier without you and I mean it.


That's very gracious.  Thank you.  The feeling is quite mutual.

(and before someone chimes in, no, we don't need to get a room )


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Finally put up the Christmas tree. Wishing you all happy holidays ahead. I know... it's hard with these Covid times but at least we have our music to enjoy at home.


May the year coming be filled with happiness, health, Head-Fi camaraderie, and no hum…😄


----------



## bcowen (Dec 19, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> May the year coming be filled with happiness, health, Head-Fi camaraderie, *and no hum*…😄


Then you're hoping nobody gets a DarkVoice?   😂


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Then you're hoping nobody gets a DarkVoice?   😂


That as well as generalised tube “demons”…


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Then you're hoping nobody gets a DarkVoice?   😂


Is that a new variant .


----------



## baronbeehive

Merry Christmas everyone , lets all hope for better things in 2022 🙂.

God Jul, (Swedish), and may the goat survive to live another year!


----------



## SonicTrance

baronbeehive said:


> God Jul, (Swedish), and may the goat survive to live another year!


God jul! The goat has already burned!


----------



## UntilThen

This Christmas my present is Odyssey. The mermaid brought it to me 4 1/2 months earlier. That's mermaid delivery for you. You want it fast, get the mermaid. All the way from Sweden to Australia. Over the next 2 weeks I'll have all the time to roll in my favourite tubes in Odyssey but for now a short video to recap Odyssey's journey.


----------



## UntilThen

There's a gate crasher today.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

It doesn't carry any tubes.... Send it away....


----------



## UntilThen

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> It doesn't carry any tubes.... Send it away....


----------



## UntilThen

K where do I stick a pair of KT88 on this Moon?


----------



## Dogmatrix

UntilThen said:


> K where do I stick a pair of KT88 on this Moon?


The dark side


----------



## UntilThen

Dogmatrix said:


> The dark side



Spot on.


----------



## audiargent

Merry Christmas to all of you! May the New year bring excellent amps (my Odyssey in March) to us all!

And in general may all be well with your health and that of your families.


----------



## UntilThen

Using the Moon as DAC into Odyssey. The Moon is going back to it owner soon.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> There's a gate crasher today.


Ssssssssolid Sssssstate?  ARRGGHHH!!!  My eyes can't unsee this.  Thanks for ruining my holiday.  😞


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Ssssssssolid Sssssstate?  ARRGGHHH!!!  My eyes can't unsee this.  Thanks for ruining my holiday.  😞



You have to be tough in the head-fi jungle. Hear it, if you don't like it, tick it off. Anyway you still have 2 days to recover before Christmas.


----------



## UntilThen

Yeehar I'm officially on break. Now for the 10,000 posts in 2 weeks.


----------



## UntilThen

My music room for the next 2 1/2 weeks.


----------



## UntilThen

The amps  ssssss


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> The amps  ssssss


OK, my eyes feel better now.  Much better.


----------



## UntilThen

Michelangelo's work in the Sistine Chapel included many important pieces. The 12 apostles, Creation of Adam, prophet Jonah. All this he has to arrange where to craft it. On the walls, on the ceilings.... 

Here's UntilThen's depiction of the 4 horsemen.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Here's UntilThen's depiction of the 4 horsemen.


One of your horses have no...... tubes.....   
@bcowen - I should have warned you, I know. Take your meds before looking at the tubeless horse!


----------



## jonathan c

Four horsemen of the tubepocalypse…😳😩😭😵‍💫…


----------



## jonathan c

Zachik said:


> One of your horses have no...... tubes.....
> @bcowen - I should have warned you, I know. Take your meds before looking at the tubeless horse!


🎵“I’ve been through the desert on a horse with no tubes…”🎵


----------



## UntilThen

Bcowen won't know the difference between horsemen and tubemen so it's ok. I'll show him this picture and he will be alright. Now here's the surprise. Wa22 can drive He6se. Albeit with Tung Sol 5998, at high gain and volume at just past 12 pm.


----------



## UntilThen

Another friend brought another tubeless dac/amp. Facepalm. DX7 Pro.


----------



## UntilThen

Friend doesn't want this stand and gave it to me. What's wrong with him or the stand?


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y (Dec 23, 2021)

If it is for headphones, the top is too flat. It will create dents on your headphone straps overtime.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Michelangelo's work in the Sistine Chapel included many important pieces. The 12 apostles, Creation of Adam, prophet Jonah. *All this he has to arrange where to craft it. On the walls, on the ceilings....*
> 
> Here's UntilThen's depiction of the 4 horsemen.


Pah... Michael... who? He has nothing on Ultrasonic studios!

Speaking of which you might just have to find a space on your wall, or ceiling, for when your next.. mystery.. amp arrives shortly 🙂.


----------



## UntilThen

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> If it is for headphones, the top is too flat. It will create dents on your headphone straps overtime.



It's not too flat.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Pah... Michael... who? He has nothing on Ultrasonic studios!
> 
> Speaking of which you might just have to find a space on your wall, or ceiling, for when your next.. mystery.. amp arrives shortly 🙂.



Michael Murphy he's an artist. Berry good with tubes.

I've a quota for amps. 4 amps is max. Odyssey, Destiny, Oblivion and Wa22. One will have to go if another comes in.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> I've a quota for amps. 4 amps is max. Odyssey, Destiny, Oblivion and Wa22. One will have to go if another comes in.


You told me to imagine a 300B amp built by Tomas a few weeks ago. :|


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Michael Murphy he's an artist. Berry good with tubes.
> 
> I've a quota for amps. 4 amps is max. Odyssey, Destiny, Oblivion and Wa22. One will have to go if another comes in.


If you use WA22 as a preamplifier, is it out of the amp census…?


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Another friend brought another tubeless dac/amp. Facepalm. DX7 Pro.


…hmm…multibit vs R2R vs delta-sigma (+ AKM vs ESS…)


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> One of your horses have no...... tubes.....
> @bcowen - I should have warned you, I know. Take your meds before looking at the tubeless horse!


😜

That would be more accurately depicted as the 3 Horsemen and the stable boy.  😋


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Another friend brought another tubeless dac/amp. Facepalm. DX7 Pro.


You should consider getting some new friends.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> You should consider getting some new friends.



I have you and I expect the WE300b amp send to me or I'll strangle you with this new cables that I just bought.
https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B01JY2A4QO?psc=1&smid=A3TG3BZGICQGN6&ref_=chk_typ_imgToDp


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I have you and I expect the WE300b amp send to me or I'll strangle you with this new cables that I just bought.
> https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B01JY2A4QO?psc=1&smid=A3TG3BZGICQGN6&ref_=chk_typ_imgToDp


You have me of course, but a man with your sophistication and pedigreed lineage should be buying cables like this:





Unless, of course, you bought the Amazon cable just to strangle me with....in which case you spent too much.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Friend doesn't want this stand and gave it to me. What's wrong with him or the stand?


I've used the same Silverstone stand for several years, headbands are perfectly happy on them, no injury.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> I've used the same Silverstone stand for several years, headbands are perfectly happy on them, no injury.



https://www.head-fi.org/threads/pics-of-headphones-rules-one-pic-no-words.212768/post-16694352

Perfect.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> You have me of course, but a man with your sophistication and pedigreed lineage should be buying cables like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless, of course, you bought the Amazon cable just to strangle me with....in which case you spent too much.



Cables should not cost that much. I don't care if it's pure gold. It's crap when the price is starting from $12,995. Who are they trying to kid.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Cables should not cost that much. I don't care if it's pure gold. It's crap when the price is starting from $12,995. Who are they trying to kid.


Aw, man.  Where's your sense of adventure?  I'd bet you a beer that cable sounds 5% better than my DIY versions.


----------



## UntilThen

This is a Picasso.



See the similarities?


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> This is a Picasso.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FTFY 🙂.


----------



## baronbeehive

Somewhere on youtube there is a guy who explains that all you need to do to evaluate audio cables is use an oscilloscope to see what the cables frequency response is like.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> FTFY 🙂.


🤣😂🤣😂


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Somewhere on youtube there is a guy who explains that all you need to do to evaluate audio cables is use an oscilloscope to see what the cables frequency response is like.


Might be the same guy with the "How to Solder" videos whereby you melt a little blob of solder on the end of what you're soldering and then stick it to the other piece. At first I thought it was mistitled and supposed to be a how NOT to solder video, but sadly it wasn't.


----------



## UntilThen

Merry Christmas 2021 all. From the chief ape engineer and all the staff from UntilThen Production. Hope you have a good year.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> FTFY 🙂.



You deface my Picasso again and I'll send you back to Alcatraz.


----------



## UntilThen

Now for the obligatory Christmas song. I'll spare you Andy Williams, Elvis Presley and Tom Jones. This year you get something new. Something younger and more alive.


----------



## UntilThen

Now for something more family orientated and class.


----------



## UntilThen

Omg Jose Feliciano does it so much better and that small boy is Bcowen when he was young.


----------



## UntilThen

But I can't let Christmas go by without playing you BaronBeeHive's fav movie.


----------



## UntilThen

Or this version for Bcowen..... now surely Christmas is ruined. Help !!!!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Omg Jose Feliciano does it so much better and that small boy is Bcowen when he was young.



That was me last Christmas.  But I learned this past year how to properly handle an LP.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Or this version for Bcowen..... now surely Christmas is ruined* in perpetuity*. Help !!!!



FTFY.  🥺


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> You deface my Picasso again and I'll send you back to Alcatraz.


That was his early period, so we must make an exception for a genius in the making 🙂.


----------



## UntilThen

Final Christmas message. Tube roll safely. Don't kill yourself.


----------



## UntilThen

Morning tube aficionados. Let the tube rolling begin. A tube that goes by the moniker of 807. This one's a Radiotron with D^D symbol.

The 6L6 vacuum tube or thermionic valve was one of the most iconic valves ever produced. The 6L6 first appeared before the Second World War, and was widely used in many applications, especially in audio amplifier, finding particular favour in guitar amplifiers. *A development of the 6L6 was the 807 - a valve that took the basic 6L6 design, but used a top cap connection for the anode to enable it to be used in RF power applications.



*


----------



## UntilThen (Dec 25, 2021)

Dennis Had did build a 807 single ended amp.

This is what Dennis Had wrote in the original ad...

_After all these years of designing and manufacturing audio amplifiers, on a few rare occasions an amplifier presentation of the music will bring tears to my eyes. This, "Sweet-807" amplifier, as I have named it, is one of those emotionally charged music presentations with tears of joy as the reward of this new design. I recently was reintroduced to the 807 tube by an audiophile buddy here in Raleigh. He asked the question .... "What do you know about the 807 tube for audio?" With that I had a flash back and off I went on a mission of 807 tube designing ... just to see how this tube would sound as a single-ended class A audio amplifier. I am truly excited about using the world famous 807 vacuum tube that went into one of my first "home-brew" novice ham radio transmitters as a kid back in 1958. Well, now I know why this tube is world famous. Truly amazing great hi-fi home audio sound for sure. No matter the choice of music you enjoy or the playback equipment you use, this new "Sweet-807" will reward the listener with the emotional impact and realism of the original score.
On a technical basis this 807 music machine has a number of features listed below: Fully regulated low impedance 807 tube screen grid B+ power supply * Fully regulated low impedance input tube driver, 6922, B+ power supply * Precision non-inductive metal film 3 watt resistors * Paper and oil filed, epoxy encapsulated, coupling and by-pass capacitors * Gold plated copper output speaker posts * EE Teflon silver stranded 19 strand hook up wiring * Pure 99.9% Silver Teflon Insulated internal coax interconnect * Custom design 15 watt SE air gapped output transformers with a separate feed-back winding, left and right channel matched pair * 300 % duty cycle CCS power transformer designed for 120/240 VAC 50/60 Hz primary * Pi-Network featuring filter choke in the B+ power supply * .080 (12 ga) aluminum chassis and matching bottom plate with large soft rubber shock mount feet * 9 watts per channel output w 274B (5U4) rectifier tube or 10 watts per channel output with 5AR4/GZ34 rectifier * 6CG7 additional input tube included for some tube rolling fun ... the 6CG7 is the equivalent of a 6SN7 in a 9 pin package.

I guess you can tell I am excited with the "Sweet-807" stereo amplifier offering. I hand build each amplifier from the raw metal and basket of parts. I consider this my form of musical and electronic art. Each amp is a new baby to me and I listen to each amplifier in both the shop listening room and my home listening room. This is a passion I have held for over 55 years now ever since I listened to my neighbors McIntosh vacuum tube hi-fi amplifiers. I never dreamed that retirement was going to be so much fun!!!!!!! Love it!!!!_






However 807 on Odyssey is just sensational. You see why I love Odyssey. So many classic tube sound like Odyssey is made for them. Tomas did build a classic and legendary tube amp in Odyssey. 15 watts in triode mode and 20 watts in UL mode into 8 ohms, Odyssey is a Rolls Royce that just cruise along. Mundorf s/g/o capacitors in black with gold letterings stands out in the interior. It's still a picture for my eyes only.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Dennis Had did build a 807 single ended amp.
> 
> This is what Dennis Had wrote in the original ad...
> 
> ...



Man, I can't believe he didn't send me one of those to approve listen to.  Sigh.  😒

http://www.sixpacs.com/tubetalk.shtml


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Man, I can't believe he didn't send me one of those to approve listen to. Sigh. 😒



Man I can't believe you are world famous. I can't afford a celebrity caddy. So you did not get to listen to the finished product?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Man I can't believe you are world famous. I can't afford a celebrity caddy. So you did not get to listen to the finished product?



Finished product of the Six Pacs?  Yeah, I had a pair for quite a while.  Great amps for rock and roll!  But never quite managed the same level of inner detailing and harmonic beauty of the Super Amp (for push-pull pentodes, anyway).  Still have the Super Amp...it's one of those I'll never part with.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Finished product of the Six Pacs? Yeah, I had a pair for quite a while. Great amps for rock and roll! But never quite managed the same level of inner detailing and harmonic beauty of the Super Amp (for push-pull pentodes, anyway). Still have the *Superman* Amp...it's one of those I'll never part with.



Nice. What happen to Dennis? Did he finally retire?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Nice. What happen to Dennis? Did he finally retire?


I haven't talked to him in ages.  He retired from Cary Audio, and I think he's just building Inspire amps now when his body's dependence on solder fumes flares up.


----------



## Denox123 (Dec 30, 2021)

Hi guys, just curious what the difference between oblivion and infinity?

Plan to drive Susvara, Meze Elite & Abyss headphone.


----------



## xfusion

UntilThen said:


> Morning tube aficionados. Let the tube rolling begin. A tube that goes by the moniker of 807. This one's a Radiotron with D^D symbol.
> 
> The 6L6 vacuum tube or thermionic valve was one of the most iconic valves ever produced. The 6L6 first appeared before the Second World War, and was widely used in many applications, especially in audio amplifier, finding particular favour in guitar amplifiers. *A development of the 6L6 was the 807 - a valve that took the basic 6L6 design, but used a top cap connection for the anode to enable it to be used in RF power applications.
> 
> *



Do I see a GE tube at the front of this Odyssey ? Hmmm......


----------



## baronbeehive

xfusion said:


> Do I see a GE tube at the front of this Odyssey ? Hmmm......


Haha, well spotted! UT you should be ashamed of  yourself 🙂.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> Haha, well spotted! UT you should be ashamed of  yourself 🙂.


…but…but…but…it’s a Brimar rebrand…🤞


----------



## UntilThen

Denox123 said:


> Hi guys, just curious what the difference between oblivion and infinity?
> 
> Plan to drive Susvara, Meze Elite & Abyss headphone.



I've only heard and own the Oblivion and not the Infinity. On the neutral scale, it should go like this...

Neutral  ------------------------------  more coloured
Citadel  >   Oblivion   >    Infinity / Eternity   >    Odyssey

I don't have Susvara but I will talk about He6se V2 because they are both in the same ball park of 83 dB and 50 ohms inefficiency. Oblivion drives He6se with no problem. Odyssey drives He6se with finesse and control. This combination is so good, I know I have found my ultimate tube amp. Susvara, Meze Elite and Abyss it should handle with no problems.

@audiargent is getting a more powerful version of Odyssey @ 10w into 50 ohms. Good lord.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> I've only heard and own the Oblivion and not the Infinity. On the neutral scale, it should go like this...
> 
> Neutral  ------------------------------  more coloured
> Citadel  >   Oblivion   >    Infinity / Eternity   >    Odyssey
> ...


@UntilThen Potentially more. It will have impedance matching as well 

And will put in a gain switch. I'm afraid if I have sensitive dynamic headphones plugged in.

I followed your advice and am upgrading caps to Mundorf. 

Anything else you would suggest?

May I ask, using Odyssey, in terms of resolution how far the LCD-4 is from the HE-6SE V2?

I won't be buying any headphones soon, I think I will first experience the HE-6SE on Odyssey.

I alread have some mid-range (or beginners) headphones... HD660s, M1570 and the SASH Tres (my favourite at this point)...

Not sure if I should invest in a better DAC (I have Gungnir MB Unison).

My dream is Audio-GD R8 to Odyssey.
And for "Solid State" their Master 9 with the AS-1.

Also a Citadel seems an interesting proposition... :O Maybe later...


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> May I ask, using Odyssey, in terms of resolution how far the LCD-4 is from the HE-6SE V2?



Not a question of resolution because they both resolves very well.

In comparison, LCD4 has less treble, is denser in texture and darker / more room filling bass. LCD4 also sound more upfront. He6se is more 7 seats away from band as opposed to LCD4 3 seats away.

Bass on He6se is also tighter.

For some reason I just use He6se all the time while the LCD4 sits on the stand.

I’m getting back my He1000se today with new pads and leather band. I am eager to hear the He1000se and He6se side by side.

Your Odyssey will turn out great. With Sowter transformers, Mundorf caps and Yamamoto sockets, I can’t think of anything else you need. Just one thing - the back rotary switch for EL11 or 6sl7 would be better with a flick switch. When the amp was new, I would be cursing and screaming trying to turn that rotary knob in that confine space.


----------



## UntilThen

He1000se returns to the fold with new leather headband and earpads. I had miss it for 2 months. Miss how good it sound with Odyssey. This will usher in the New Year which is just 6 hours away.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> He1000se returns to the fold with new leather headband and earpads. I had miss it for 2 months. Miss how good it sound with Odyssey. This will usher in the New Year which is just 6 hours away.


Side by side comparison with HE-6SE on Odyssey now that you have them both up and running would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Side by side comparison with HE-6SE on Odyssey now that you have them both up and running would be greatly appreciated!



Hmmm after an hour with both headphones and Odyssey I know the answer already. YMMV.   However it will only be reveal 2 days later, so that my brain has time to adjust to both and there will be no bias (personal).

What surprised me is how similar they sound but there are differences. Subtle but definitely noticeable.


----------



## UntilThen

Happy New Year everyone !!!


----------



## xfusion

Happy New Year 2022 everyone!!🎆🎇✨


----------



## UntilThen

A recap of 2021. These are the gear that gave me the most joy. With the exception of Yggdrasil and Oblivion, they are all here. I was right at the start of 2021 when I plan my headphones on He1000se and LCD4. They are all I need. HD800 and He6se V2 are just there to add other flavours.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> A recap of 2021. These are the gear that gave me the most joy. With the exception of Yggdrasil and Oblivion, they are all here. I was right at the start of 2021 when I plan my headphones on He1000se and LCD4. They are all I need. HD800 and He6se V2 are just there to add other flavours.


Hey.. if 2022 is anything like that it will be a good one 🙂.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> A recap of 2021. These are the gear that gave me the most joy. With the exception of Yggdrasil and Oblivion, they are all here. I was right at the start of 2021 when I plan my headphones on He1000se and LCD4. *They are all I need.* HD800 and He6se V2 are just there to add other flavours.


Remind me again what _need_ has to do with any of this?  🤣🤣


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Hey.. if 2022 is anything like that it will be a good one 🙂.



Indeed. I went overboard in 2021. I think I started with Questyle CMA 12, v280, Schiit Mjolnir 2, Auralic Taurus Mk 2, La Figaro 339i, Elekit TU-8200, Odyssey, He1000se & LCD4. 

Not to mention the tubes purchased.

Not sure what will happen in 2022 yet. I have no plans.



bcowen said:


> Remind me again what _need_ has to do with any of this? 🤣🤣



It's a strange hobby. We're driven not by needs but by wants. There are many ways to enjoy music. He1000se off iPhone or He1000se off Odyssey. It's a myth that this HiFiMan doesn't need much amplification to sound good. To my ears, Wa22 drives He1000se very well but with Odyssey, it's ridiculous. It's not just power but control and tonality.

Oblivion lives in the shadow which is pretty unfair because He1000se sounds very good with Oblivion. Even better than with Wa22. All this from my perspective of course.


----------



## UntilThen

I found what I am looking for.  New pads for He1000se turns it into a new headphone. Haven't use the Siemens EL11 in ages so it's on now in UL mode with feedback applied. Sittard GZ34 rectifier and Tung Sol 6550 1960s make up the combination.

This is the setup for me. I can't get enough of it. DAC used at the moment is NAD M51 but Yggdrasil will be better.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> *Oblivion lives in the shadow* which is pretty unfair because He1000se sounds very good with Oblivion. Even better than with Wa22. All this from my perspective of course.


Looks like you may have *finally* found the right sound signature for you? This is what I found after the experimenting I don't really want to keep changing it any more I'm liking what I hear so why bother! Of course I'm *not* saying stop obtaining new amps, for people that want please carry on LOL!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I found what I am looking for.  New pads for He1000se turns it into a new headphone. Haven't use the Siemens EL11 in ages so *it's on now in UL mode with feedback applied.* Sittard GZ34 rectifier and Tung Sol 6550 1960s make up the combination.


Can you hear any difference with and without feedback?


----------



## SonicTrance

It's finally ready! There has been some delay because of transformer shipping times and me being sick but, here's Telemachus! More info on the website!


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> It's finally ready! There has been some delay because of transformer shipping times and me being sick but, here's Telemachus! More info on the website!


Gorgeous!!!!!!


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> It's finally ready! There has been some delay because of transformer shipping times and me being sick but, here's Telemachus! More info on the website!


WOW! Can't wait for impressions from UT 🙂. A 300B with grid drivers, wonder if anyone else has done this.

I see you managed to get Billy Joel in for the demo... :


----------



## TheMiddleSky

SonicTrance said:


> It's finally ready! There has been some delay because of transformer shipping times and me being sick but, here's Telemachus! More info on the website!


Looks soo beautiful !!

Is this fully balance amp or SE like Infinity? And What's the difference with Infinity 300B in term of sound character?


----------



## bpiotrow13 (Jan 2, 2022)

Is it 5u4g rectifier? Looks really nice. I can not wait to read some sound impressions. How does it sound, would be super to have some comparisons


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> It's finally ready! There has been some delay because of transformer shipping times and me being sick but, here's Telemachus! More info on the website!



I was waiting to see this amp.  Sorry to hear you were sick. Hope you have recovered ! So it is indeed called Telemachus, who is the son of Odyssey and Penelope in the Greek Mythology.

Congrats on another stunning amp. The Ultrasonic Studio product range have grown. I'm glad to see that it has a 300b amp in the stable.


----------



## leftside

SonicTrance said:


> It's finally ready! There has been some delay because of transformer shipping times and me being sick but, here's Telemachus! More info on the website!


Very nice. If I didn't already have a 300B amp, I'd get this one.

"The 300B filaments have regulated 5VDC power supplies for lowest noise. The high voltage power supply can be made both unregulated, if you wish to use rectifier tube, or regulated using SS diode rectification and a Maida style regulator."
Can the amp be built with both, and some sort of selection switch to choose between the two?


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> WOW! Can't wait for impressions from UT 🙂. A 300B with grid drivers, wonder if anyone else has done this.
> 
> I see you managed to get Billy Joel in for the demo... :




Unfortunately the amp is for another lucky client. Yes a 300b with grid drivers. 

Here's what Tomas told me in an earlier correspondence.

_Tube rolling 6SN7 input tubes will affect the sound! But, they don't drive the 300b's. I have grid drivers in place for that! This is where the "modern design" comes in! 

This unit he can only roll 6SN7 type tubes like 6f8g and ECC33._

Perhaps ECC32 as well... that's my guess. Tomas to confirm.



TheMiddleSky said:


> Looks soo beautiful !!
> 
> Is this fully balance amp or SE like Infinity? And What's the difference with Infinity 300B in term of sound character?



It's an SE amp and from what Tomas has produced, both SE and balanced amps sound great. Hard to say the difference in sound character between this and Infinity 300B but I'd say the difference will be very significant.

Far a start, this use Sowter output transformers and Hammond mains transformer. Uses Yamamoto sockets as well. Not doubt it will have boutique capacitors as well - probably Mundorf s/g/o capacitors.

Other significant difference is the choice of 6SN7 inputs that WILL affect sound. 

Again in the words of Tomas
_This gives Telemachus the best of both worlds. *Fast transients and speed due to the grid drivers while still maintaining the beautiful 300B sound! *_This sound signature is one that I want to hear. It's probably what I'm looking for in a 300b amp.

Telemachus will be defined by it's sound more than any other aspect and with 12.5 watts into 8 ohms, yeah it's exciting. This should drive Susvara easy. 

See the website:-
http://ultrasonicstudios.org/telemachus/



bpiotrow13 said:


> Is it 5u4g rectifier? Looks really nice. I can not wait to read some sound impressions. How does it sound, would be super to have some comparisons



In an earlier photo that Tomas showed me, it was a JJ GZ34 rectifier. I think you can use both GZ34 and 5U4G here. Probably the other variants too like GZ32, 53ku, U52 etc. Tomas please expand on this?


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Very nice. If I didn't already have a 300B amp, I'd get this one.
> 
> "The 300B filaments have regulated 5VDC power supplies for lowest noise. The high voltage power supply can be made both unregulated, if you wish to use rectifier tube, or regulated using SS diode rectification and a Maida style regulator."
> Can the amp be built with both, and some sort of selection switch to choose between the two?



I was reading this with interest too regarding the power supplies.


----------



## SonicTrance

TheMiddleSky said:


> Looks soo beautiful !!
> 
> Is this fully balance amp or SE like Infinity? And What's the difference with Infinity 300B in term of sound character?


Thanks!
It's a SET amp.
Well those two amps have nothing in common really except they both use 300B's at the output. Infinity runs the tubes in their linear region at all times, while Telemachus let's the tubes operate in their non-linear regions as well. This gives Telemachus higher THD. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. Depends on your preference.



bpiotrow13 said:


> Is it 5u4g rectifier? Looks really nice. I can not wait to read some sound impressions. How does it sound, would be super to have some comparisons


It can use both GZ34 or 5U4G.
Hopefully the client will share some impressions later. It shippes tomorrow!



leftside said:


> Can the amp be built with both, and some sort of selection switch to choose between the two?


Yes, definitely a possibility! Not switchable with amp on though.



UntilThen said:


> Perhaps ECC32 as well... that's my guess.


Yes, ECC32 should be fine.



UntilThen said:


> In an earlier photo that Tomas showed me, it was a JJ GZ34 rectifier. I think you can use both GZ34 and 5U4G here. Probably the other variants too like GZ32, 53ku, U52 etc. Tomas please expand on this?


It can use basically any rectifier that can put out 200mA. He shouldn't use 274B though as first cap is 10uF. The 274B wants 4uF as first C.


----------



## leftside

SonicTrance said:


> Yes, definitely a possibility! Not switchable with amp on though.


My current amps have quite a few switches where they are "not switchable with amp on though"  I think the amp seller has to trust their customers when they agree to such switches. Would never see these types of things from off the shelf amp manufacturers.


----------



## leftside

Is anyone on here getting this 300B amp? And if so, are you going to buy the new Western Electric 300B tubes? I have the Tak 300B on my Glenn amp, and I swore to never tube roll with this amp. Amazing I've kept to my word so far, but I have to admit I'm getting tempted by these new WE tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

The amp looks is starting to grow on me. I like it.

Tomas, what does Maida style regulator do? The ability to switch between solid state and tube rectification is very appealing.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Is anyone on here getting this 300B amp? And if so, are you going to buy the new Western Electric 300B tubes? I have the Tak 300B on my Glenn amp, and I swore to never tube roll with this amp. Amazing I've kept to my word so far, but I have to admit I'm getting tempted by these new WE tubes.



I swore that Odyssey would be the last amp but now I have to sell off the golf sets, carts, Bcowen and Baronbeehive to afford this. 

Dunno but a possibility for 2022. My mind's hatching plans now.


----------



## UntilThen

Tomas, take a low light shot of Telemachus with the amp powered on please. Those are VU meters and not mA meters.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> Tomas, take a low light shot of Telemachus with the amp powered on please. Those are VU meters and not mA meters.


Those meters look familiar


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Looks like you may have *finally* found the right sound signature for you? This is what I found after the experimenting I don't really want to keep changing it any more I'm liking what I hear so why bother! Of course I'm *not* saying stop obtaining new amps, for people that want please carry on LOL!



Are you a psychic? Yesterday I was totally satisfied with Odyssey. Today I know what a 300b amp with Odyssey DNA will sound. So now I'm only 90% satisfied. 

However 4 months after Odyssey arrival, I still find that it's the best tonally with He1000se. My ears of course. Could have stop here right now.



baronbeehive said:


> Can you hear any difference with and without feedback?



With feedback, I find it's quieter. Just a little. Also a smite less power. Again not by much.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> Could have stop here right now.


----------



## whirlwind

leftside said:


> Can the amp be built with both, and some sort of selection switch to choose between the two?


Ha ha....leave it to you brother....always stretching the boundaries of having more is better


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Ha ha....leave it to you brother....always stretching the boundaries of having more is better



Odyssey was suppose to be simple. You know the KISS principle? However it has all these:-

Triode / UL mode switch.
Speaker on/off switch.
Impedance switch.
RCA Input selector switch.
Drive tube selector switch.
Feedback on/off switch.

I find all of these useful and did not regret having any of them.

If I had known it's possible to have ss or tube rectification switch, I would have it.


----------



## rollinbr

I know I'm assuming but it sure looks like Telemachus is going to the US or Canada with the 120V input. If Telemachus lands in your area hopefully you and others will get to hear Tomas's latest creation!


----------



## UntilThen

rollinbr said:


> I know I'm assuming but it sure looks like Telemachus is going to the US or Canada with the 120V input. If Telemachus lands in your area hopefully you and others will get to hear Tomas's latest creation!



Well spotted. Maybe it's going to you Bryant or Bill?   

Back is almost similar to Odyssey right?


----------



## rollinbr

I wish! Lately I've been spending money like a drunken sailor. Came home, from working all night, on the morning of the 4th of December and checked out what was left of Zach and Bevin's stabilized Friday night sale. The Colorada seemed to speak to me, "take me home". Since Colorado is my home state it just seemed natural. So I bought them. Then the following week on the 7th I pulled the trigger on a LCD-4 auction. Then on the 12th I won an auction for the controversial DCA Stealth. Then I left I needed a Grumpy Goose headphone stand. And to top it all off for traveling the iFi Pro iCAN Signature Amplifier. Perhaps I'm in need of some therapy! Headphone Musical Therapy It Will Be!


----------



## UntilThen

rollinbr said:


> I wish! Lately I've been spending money like a drunken sailor. Came home, from working all night, on the morning of the 4th of December and checked out what was left of Zach and Bevin's stabilized Friday night sale. The Colorada seemed to speak to me, "take me home". Since Colorado is my home state it just seemed natural. So I bought them. Then the following week on the 7th I pulled the trigger on a LCD-4 auction. Then on the 12th I won an auction for the controversial DCA Stealth. Then I left I needed a Grumpy Goose headphone stand. And to top it all off for traveling the iFi Pro iCAN Signature Amplifier. Perhaps I'm in need of some therapy! Headphone Musical Therapy It Will Be!



You have done well. All lovely purchases. No therapy needed.


----------



## leftside

whirlwind said:


> Ha ha....leave it to you brother....always stretching the boundaries of having more is better


Haha you know I like my selection switches


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey was suppose to be simple. You know the KISS principle? However it has all these:-
> 
> Triode / UL mode switch.
> Speaker on/off switch.
> ...


I will be putting:

Impedance
Gain
Source Selection (Likely at the back)
TR/UL (Likely at the back)

I read your comments on the feedback - do you think it is worth it?

What are you using as volume pot?


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> I will be putting:
> 
> Impedance - *Yes*
> Gain - *Yes*
> ...



Feedback in my case is only for the EL11 driver tubes. Since you're not using that, check with Tomas whether feedback is necessary or beneficial.

Not idea what my volume pot is but it is smooth   and it's also a logarithmic potentiometer.
https://learnabout-electronics.org/Resistors/resistors_09a.php

Are you using the same chassis as Telemachus?


----------



## UntilThen

rollinbr said:


> Then the following week on the 7th I pulled the trigger on a LCD-4 auction.



An iconic headphone. One that will remain in my stable. You've pick up one in very good condition. 

A most relaxing tone with Oblivion and Odyssey. I'm listening to Elton John now and I've not heard Elton John for a very long time. All the classic starts to come back. Tiny Dancer, Rocket Man, Bernie and the jets, Candle in the wind. By the time I got to Daniel, I've relive my childhood.   

What's precious about this LCD4 is that it seek me out. I did not seek it. A friend sounded me out and told me it's mine at a low cost for his few months old LCD4 if I want it. It's his way of saying thanks for my 'advise' to him and friendship. How touching.  

So here we go.... Daniel.


----------



## rollinbr

UntilThen said:


> An iconic headphone. One that will remain in my stable. You've pick up one in very good condition.
> 
> A most relaxing tone with Oblivion and Odyssey. I'm listening to Elton John now and I've not heard Elton John for a very long time. All the classic starts to come back. Tiny Dancer, Rocket Man, Bernie and the jets, Candle in the wind. By the time I got to Daniel, I've relive my childhood.
> 
> ...


Your right Matt, the LCD-4 has a most relaxing tone. I've been listening PC>Eitr>Sonic Frontiers Processor 3>Freya+>Loki Max>Auris Nirvana>LCD-4 and it's just sublime. 

The mids are so creamy. Really enjoying Sheryl Crow & Emmylou Harris Perform 'Nobody's Perfect' | CMT Crossroads, AC/DC - Thunderstruck (Official Video), Snowy White and Friends - Slabo Day (2012) / official live video, Pink Floyd - " PULSE " Live 1994 Remastered and many more...........

At times the visual que can really add to the musical experience/enjoyment. Oh ya, when I was in California I went by the Schiitr on the 18th and picked up the Loki Max. Got home on the 21st and hooked up the Loki Max. Couple of hours later the Loki Max was having issues. Schiit just happens sometimes. Schiit was great in doing an exchange and the new Loki Max works as advertised. Still not sure I'll keep the Loki Max but it has been nice to turn a knob and make a few tweaks here and there. 

Just getting ready to enjoy Marantz SA-14 v2 spinning Tubular Bells>Yggdrasil A1>Freya S>Cavalli LAu (Liquid Gold OG)>LCD-4


----------



## UntilThen

All very good gear Bryant. It was a listening session of Chord Qutest > Auris Nirvana > LCD4 that made me want a custom amp and LCD4. That pairing of Nirvana and LCD4 is very good but Odyssey and LCD4 is even better. 

The world has not known Odyssey yet but that's the level it's playing at and much better and more versatile in my opinion. Not to mention a lot cheaper.


----------



## rollinbr

UntilThen said:


> All very good gear Bryant. It was a listening session of Chord Qutest > Auris Nirvana > LCD4 that made me want a custom amp and LCD4. That pairing of Nirvana and LCD4 is very good but Odyssey and LCD4 is even better.
> 
> The world has not known Odyssey yet but that's the level it's playing at and much better and more versatile in my opinion. Not to mention a lot cheaper.


I remember checking out the price of the Nirvana down under, $9299 Australian dollars is not cheap. I feel like I stole a Auris Nirvana when I picked one up off of Headphones.com buy/sell forum for $3200 US dollars that was only 1.5 months old.

The versatility of Odyssey and all the different tubes is one of the attributes that makes Odyssey special, along with the transformers, Yamamoto tube sockets etc... I love the ability to use different power tubes with Chameleon. Still find the EL156 to be my favorite. I'll be posting some pictures and a write up soon in the Eric McChanson Headphone Amp?? forum.


----------



## UntilThen

rollinbr said:


> I remember checking out the price of the Nirvana down under, $9299 Australian dollars is not cheap. I feel like I stole a Auris Nirvana when I picked one up off of Headphones.com buy/sell forum for $3200 US dollars that was only 1.5 months old.
> 
> The versatility of Odyssey and all the different tubes is one of the attributes that makes Odyssey special, along with the transformers, Yamamoto tube sockets etc... I love the ability to use different power tubes with Chameleon. Still find the EL156 to be my favorite. I'll be posting some pictures and a write up soon in the Eric McChanson Headphone Amp?? forum.



That's cheap for a Nirvana. Someone obviously didn't like tube amp to be selling a 1.5 months old unit at that price.  

Yeah give your thoughts on the EL156 tubes. Hardly any impressions out there apart from DIY forum and my take on it.


----------



## rollinbr (Jan 3, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> That's cheap for a Nirvana. Someone obviously didn't like tube amp to be selling a 1.5 months old unit at that price.
> 
> Yeah give your thoughts on the EL156 tubes. Hardly any impressions out there apart from DIY forum and my take on it.


They were going through different tube amplifiers like crazy. They tried 2 different Auris Audio amps, Several AmpandSound amps and ended up with Decware tube amp.

Elton John - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road now playing

It will soon be bed time. Almost 12:30am Monday morning here in Arizona so it is just about 6:30pm Monday down under! Enjoy your evening Matt. Got to say I'm really intrigued to try out the HE1000-SE since it is much easier to drive and less amp picky than the Susvara. But then I don't think I'd have an amp that would have a hard time driving the Susvara when at home. For airplane travel I do use Campfire Audio Andromeda S iem's with Sony NC headphones. IEM's are not all that comfortable for me so I've not gone down that path very far.

In the bedroom lately the Marantz SA-14 v1>Yggdrasil A2>Oblivion(using as preamp)>Ragnarok v1.5>HE6SE v1, Utopia, Stealth, LCD-4, Verite Closed/Open all sound . Using the Oblivion as a preamp has been the icing on the cake so to speak with the Ragnarok.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

SonicTrance said:


> Thanks!
> It's a SET amp.
> Well those two amps have nothing in common really except they both use 300B's at the output. Infinity runs the tubes in their linear region at all times, while Telemachus let's the tubes operate in their non-linear regions as well. This gives Telemachus higher THD. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. Depends on your preference.





UntilThen said:


> Unfortunately the amp is for another lucky client. Yes a 300b with grid drivers.
> 
> Here's what Tomas told me in an earlier correspondence.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot the detail information Tomas and UT.

Yes, when I read fast transient speed with 300B that certainly attract my attention!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I swore that Odyssey would be the last amp but now I have to sell off the golf sets, carts, Bcowen and Baronbeehive to afford this.
> 
> Dunno but a possibility for 2022. My mind's hatching plans now.


I would be willing to donate my grandmother.. if I had one that is.. I'm sure bcowen could lend a dime 🙂.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I would be willing to donate my grandmother.. if I had one that is.. I'm sure bcowen could lend a dime 🙂.



I  counted how much I have yesterday and found that I am 2 pennies short. 😀


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> An iconic headphone. One that will remain in my stable. You've pick up one in very good condition.
> 
> A most relaxing tone with Oblivion and Odyssey. I'm listening to Elton John now and I've not heard Elton John for a very long time. All the classic starts to come back. Tiny Dancer, Rocket Man, Bernie and the jets, Candle in the wind. By the time I got to Daniel, I've relive my childhood.
> 
> ...


The LCD-4 is a classic & a rarity: high impedance planar ! 🤪😄🥲…


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> I  counted how much I have yesterday and found that I am 2 pennies short. 😀


To count eight cents took all day?…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> To count eight cents took all day?…



800,000 cents takes a long time to count ! 

But for now I'm testing He6se V2 again with Odyssey and Destiny. Have to make sure there's enough juice to drive this headphone. You know making plans for Telemachus? 

Ha there's enough juice that's for sure. With room to spare for 2 He6se. This headphone is unbelievable when driven by powerful and exquisite sounding amps. Odyssey punch harder than the already hard punching Destiny. Odyssey also reveals more details and high frequencies. This is to be expected because the 300b is mid centric. However Telemachus will be a different ball game. Ok back to counting the cents again.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> 800,000 cents takes a long time to count !


For the impending arrival of Telemachus in Aussie land, you could start by melting down the gold chassis of Destiny.. you won't need that any more anyway 🤑


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> For the impending arrival of Telemachus in Aussie land, you could start by melting down the gold chassis of Destiny.. you won't need that any more anyway 🤑



It gets a bit tricky here because Destiny still sound great. Have been swapping LCD4, He1000se and He6se V2 between the 2 amps this morning. Such a blast going from Philips Miniwatt EL34 (yup swap to this now) to Genalex 300b. However there's a bounce from Odyssey that gets my feet tapping.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> I would be willing to donate my grandmother.. if I had one that is.. I'm sure bcowen could lend a dime 🙂.


Well dangit.  I was counting on donating your grandmother too.  Back to the drawing board I guess.  😒


----------



## iFi audio

rollinbr said:


> I wish! Lately I've been spending money like a drunken sailor. Came home, from working all night, on the morning of the 4th of December and checked out what was left of Zach and Bevin's stabilized Friday night sale. The Colorada seemed to speak to me, "take me home". Since Colorado is my home state it just seemed natural. So I bought them. Then the following week on the 7th I pulled the trigger on a LCD-4 auction. Then on the 12th I won an auction for the controversial DCA Stealth. Then I left I needed a Grumpy Goose headphone stand. And to top it all off for traveling the iFi Pro iCAN Signature Amplifier. Perhaps I'm in need of some therapy! Headphone Musical Therapy It Will Be!



That's one solid list that should keep you away from audio expenses for a long while, but doesn't have to 

And of course thanks for including our Pro iCAN Signature, may it serve you well


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> I've only heard and own the Oblivion and not the Infinity. On the neutral scale, it should go like this...
> 
> Neutral ------------------------------ more coloured
> Citadel > Oblivion > Infinity / Eternity > Odyssey


Good approximation to help decide 👍




SonicTrance said:


> It's finally ready! There has been some delay because of transformer shipping times and me being sick but, here's Telemachus! More info on the website!


Wow nice! I posted pics first page👍


----------



## alvin sawdust

Hi guys. Well I've put my order in for a Telemachus, very excited. I'm sure most of us have said this before but this will be my last amp for a very long time.
Tomas has been, and is a pleasure to deal with and has answered all my questions in detail in a prompt manner.
Looking forward to being a member of the UltraSonic crew.


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> Hi guys. Well I've put my order in for a Telemachus, very excited. I'm sure most of us have said this before but this will be my last amp for a very long time.
> Tomas has been, and is a pleasure to deal with and has answered all my questions in detail in a prompt manner.
> Looking forward to being a member of the UltraSonic crew.



Congrats and very exciting indeed. I still have my sight on Telemachus but after Odyssey, you know I've to catch my breath a bit...  

I could actually imagine how Telemachus will sound and that's why it's exciting.


----------



## audiargent

alvin sawdust said:


> Hi guys. Well I've put my order in for a Telemachus, very excited. I'm sure most of us have said this before but this will be my last amp for a very long time.
> Tomas has been, and is a pleasure to deal with and has answered all my questions in detail in a prompt manner.
> Looking forward to being a member of the UltraSonic crew.


Good luck! He should start building mine this February, An Odyssey that can take KT170s! Sent them to Tomas today!

I know that I have a few more bits to finalise my chain. But for now maybe the Audio-GD R8 and Vérité Open - has anybody tried it on Odyssey?

I feel satisfied in the planar region with HE-6SE v2, and I've heard good things from @UntilThen about it and Odyssey.


----------



## alvin sawdust

audiargent said:


> Good luck! He should start building mine this February, An Odyssey that can take KT170s! Sent them to Tomas today!
> 
> I know that I have a few more bits to finalise my chain. But for now maybe the Audio-GD R8 and Vérité Open - has anybody tried it on Odyssey?
> 
> I feel satisfied in the planar region with HE-6SE v2, and I've heard good things from @UntilThen about it and Odyssey.


Very nice, not too long to wait. Middle of the year for me, patience is a virtue!


----------



## alvin sawdust

UntilThen said:


> Congrats and very exciting indeed. I still have my sight on Telemachus but after Odyssey, you know I've to catch my breath a bit...
> 
> I could actually imagine how Telemachus will sound and that's why it's exciting.


I have no doubt you will have a Telemachus in your stable soon enough


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Good luck! He should start building mine this February, An Odyssey that can take KT170s! Sent them to Tomas today!
> 
> I know that I have a few more bits to finalise my chain. But for now maybe the Audio-GD R8 and Vérité Open - has anybody tried it on Odyssey?
> 
> I feel satisfied in the planar region with HE-6SE v2, and I've heard good things from @UntilThen about it and Odyssey.



Tomas told me I could use KT170 in my amp but I didn't try it yet. The other 2 big power tubes sound great - KT150 and EL156 and I have the latter in the amp now.

I used to own the Verite LTD Pheasant wood Open and used that with Oblivion but I sold it before Odyssey's arrival. It should sound great with Odyssey. I do still have HD800 which is also 300ohms and that sound awesome with Odyssey. 

My old headphones. All 3 are gone now.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Tomas told me I could use KT170 in my amp but I didn't try it yet. The other 2 big power tubes sound great - KT150 and EL156 and I have the latter in the amp now.
> 
> I used to own the Verite LTD Pheasant wood Open and used that with Oblivion but I sold it before Odyssey's arrival. It should sound great with Odyssey. I do still have HD800 which is also 300ohms and that sound awesome with Odyssey.
> 
> My old headphones. All 3 are gone now.


I would like something that is a bit mid centric / warm but still detailed and has sound stage.

I used to like the M1570, I still do, but I am finding it is lacking detail compared with the SASH Tres and especially the HE-6SE.

I like the HD660s, it has that "warmth", at least in the MJ2.

I will have to try them on the Odyssey to decide.

Till now I think I am going for the Tung-Sol Gold Pin 6SL-7s and the Tung-Sol 5AR4s.

I may upgrade to a full set of PSVANE T-IIs. We'll see. They are a bit costly, especially the 274B rectifiers.

Any other advice would be appreciated.

I would be interested in NOS, but I'd rather not get affectionate with something that can't be easily replaced.


----------



## iFi audio

alvin sawdust said:


> I have no doubt you will have a Telemachus in your stable soon enough



If I may ask, do you use CAD's transport or DAC by any chance? Your avatar looks familiar


----------



## alvin sawdust

iFi audio said:


> If I may ask, do you use CAD's transport or DAC by any chance? Your avatar looks familiar


Yes I have the CAD dac, good spot!


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Tomas told me I could use KT170 in my amp but I didn't try it yet. The other 2 big power tubes sound great - KT150 and EL156 and I have the latter in the amp now.
> 
> I used to own the Verite LTD Pheasant wood Open and used that with Oblivion but I sold it before Odyssey's arrival. It should sound great with Odyssey. I do still have HD800 which is also 300ohms and that sound awesome with Odyssey.
> 
> My old headphones. All 3 are gone now.


Matt, you have owned, enjoyed and sold more gear than most of us will ever get to hear.   I've been eyeing LCD-3, what did think of it and why did you sell?


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Matt, you have owned, enjoyed and sold more gear than most of us will ever get to hear.   I've been eyeing LCD-3, what did think of it and why did you sell?



I sold off LCD3 after I bought LCD4 which according to my ears is a much better headphone. So for a few months I had those 2 side by side. LCD3 is still a very good headphone.


----------



## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> I've been eyeing LCD-3, what did think of it and why did you sell?


Jump to LCD-5 and save some money


----------



## LoryWiv

Thanks @UntilThen, I hear that. @OctavianH I am still rocking your old amp, Feliks Elise (OTL), and besides the cost differential, am concerned the 20 ohm impedance of LCD-5  won't play nice with the OTL's high output impedance. LCD-3 is 110 ohms. Is this a valid concern?


----------



## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> Thanks @UntilThen, I hear that. @OctavianH I am still rocking your old amp, Feliks Elise (OTL), and besides the cost differential, am concerned the 20 ohm impedance of LCD-5  won't play nice with the OTL's high output impedance. LCD-3 is 110 ohms. Is this a valid concern?


LCD-5 has 14 Ohms and I remember I read somewhere that Elise has around 50 Ohms output impedance.


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> LCD-5 has 14 Ohms and I remember I read somewhere that Elise has around 50 Ohms output impedance.


Right, so I wouldn't expect Elise to pair well w/LCD-5...


----------



## iFi audio

alvin sawdust said:


> Yes I have the CAD dac, good spot!



Good stuff! There's something about TDA1541 and TDA1543 for sure, we've been there too 

Enjoy your CAD


----------



## alvin sawdust

iFi audio said:


> Good stuff! There's something about TDA1541 and TDA1543 for sure, we've been there too
> 
> Enjoy your CAD


I remember Scott Berry saying it's not so much about the dac chip as it is the implementation and power supplies. Whatever it is I don't think I will ever be without the CAD, have always loved NOS dacs.


----------



## iFi audio

alvin sawdust said:


> I remember Scott Berry saying it's not so much about the dac chip as it is the implementation and power supplies.



Yes, although DAC chips matter, everything that's around them is critical too; power supplies, digital receivers, data transfer do a DAC, output stage and enclosure. 



alvin sawdust said:


> Whatever it is I don't think I will ever be without the CAD, have always loved NOS dacs.



Enjoy!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> I would like something that is a bit mid centric / warm but still detailed and has sound stage.
> 
> I used to like the M1570, I still do, but I am finding it is lacking detail compared with the SASH Tres and especially the HE-6SE.
> 
> ...



Building up your NOS tubes collection takes time, passion and commitment. Not least money. If you haven't started yet, you're looking at the steep end of price now. 

Your last statement 'I would be interested in NOS, but I'd rather not get affectionate with something that can't be easily replaced.' applies to all the tubes I've collected and I stop there.

GEC KT66 clear glass
Philips Miniwatt 6AC7/EL34 xf2
Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base
RFT EL34
Tung Sol 6550 1960s
Radiotron 807
Telefunken EL156

I was going to buy Philips Miniwatt EL34 double 'D' getters with brown base and a brand new pair of GEC KT88 but I won't now. My passion ran out.  

Aside from the NOS tubes, I find these OK for day to day usage.

Psvane KT88 Tii
Shuguang KT88-Z thousand treasures black glass

Just remember that in Odyssey, the Sowter transformers did the heavy lifting and almost all tubes sound good.

Ah I almost forgot my 'Berlin' tubes. How could I.  That 's the Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez which I have several pairs.

Then you get into NOS tube rectifiers and you will be spending more again. Mullard GZ34 metal base, Sittard 5AR4/GZ34, some of the pricier 5U4G, GEC U52, Cossor 53Ku, etc. Do check with Tomas whether you can use 274b rectifiers.

NOS driver tubes will suck you dry. So yeah just buy some, sit back and enjoy. After a few months, you will stop rolling and only change tubes perhaps once a month. Maybe longer.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> NOS driver tubes will suck you dry. So yeah just buy some, sit back and enjoy. *After a few months, you will stop rolling and only change tubes perhaps once a month. Maybe longer.*



....said nobody, ever.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> ....said nobody, ever.



says UntilThen who's just rolling with old favourites.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> NOS driver tubes will suck you dry. So yeah just buy some, sit back and enjoy. After a few months, you will stop rolling and only change tubes perhaps *once a month minute*. *Maybe **longer** shorter*.


FTFY 🙃.


----------



## UntilThen

A tale of 2 cities. It was the best of times. It was the worst of times.


----------



## UntilThen

That moment in time when you want to hit pause when you hear a song so beautifully presented. 



every amp should have a pause button.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> That moment in time when you want to hit pause when you hear a song so beautifully presented.
> 
> 
> 
> every amp should have a pause button.


Every PC / cell phone should have this next to “Place Order”…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Every PC / cell phone should have this next to “Place Order”…



Tell that to Bcowen.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> That moment in time when you want to hit pause when you hear a song so beautifully presented.
> 
> 
> 
> every amp should have a pause button.


I usually hit "repeat," but to each his own.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> I usually hit "repeat," but to each his own.


I usually hit "aaaaaaaaaargh no not again" button 😫.


----------



## SonicTrance

Here's another Oblivion ready to go! Next in line is a Citadel! It's been a long time since I built one


----------



## audiargent

SonicTrance said:


> Here's another Oblivion ready to go! Next in line is a Citadel! It's been a long time since I built one


Magnificent workmanship, well done. 

I dream of a 300B Citadel...

Let's do an Odessey first!

Do the mA meters light up?


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Do the mA meters light up?



No.


----------



## UntilThen

2 friends came over to listen to my setups comprising NAD M51, Burson Soloist 3XP, Odyssey with a scatterings of headphones - LCD4, He1000se, He6se V2, HD800, HiFiMan Edition XS. 

I sat back and wanted their unbiased opinion. They were very surprised that the tube amp sounded so much clearer, more 3D soundstage and just more musical than the solid state. In fact the comments were that they are in different class. No surprise for me really as Odyssey isn't just any tube amp. 

Other comments were that the Soloist is neutral warm while Odyssey is neutral sweet. It's more than 5 months now but Odyssey remains my cherished amp.


----------



## smodtactical

Any plans on getting telemachus?


----------



## UntilThen

smodtactical said:


> Any plans on getting telemachus?



Plans come and go but 3 things are certain in life.

Birth, death and Telemachus.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Plans come and go but 3 things are certain in life.
> 
> Birth, death and Telemachus.


I thought you were "done."  

Addict.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I thought you were "done."
> 
> Addict.



3 things are certain in Head-Fi.

Start ...........................  upgrade ..... upgrade....... upgrade ..... upgrade ...... upgrade ...... upgrade ..... upgrade ...... upgrade ...... more upgrades ......................................... done.


----------



## jonathan c (Jan 19, 2022)

The essence of Head-Fiism pictorially !…..

😁...🙂...😐...😟...😒...🤩...💸…😁…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Let’s do this pictorially !…..
> 
> 😁….🙂….😐….😟….😒….🤩….💸….😁….



You miss out


----------



## smodtactical

UntilThen said:


> 3 things are certain in Head-Fi.
> 
> Start ...........................  upgrade ..... upgrade....... upgrade ..... upgrade ...... upgrade ...... upgrade ..... upgrade ...... upgrade ...... more upgrades ......................................... done.



And each of those upgrades represents 15 components so your still on upgrade 2.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Plans Amps come and go but 3 things are certain in life. Birth, death and Telemachus the next amp.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## UntilThen

smodtactical said:


> And each of those upgrades represents 15 components so your still on upgrade 2.



Believe me I'm at the end of my journey. Odysseus came home and all the sirens are forgotten.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Believe me I'm at the end of my journey. Odysseus came home and all the sirens are forgotten.


Is there an (un)official Head-Fi over/under on your developing ‘ampnesia’….?


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Is there an (un)official Head-Fi over/under on your developing ‘ampnesia’….?



Maybe he did come back with one siren?


----------



## smodtactical

UntilThen said:


> Believe me I'm at the end of my journey. Odysseus came home and all the sirens are forgotten.


Until Tomas makes a new amp


----------



## UntilThen

I have forgotten how lovely these Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base sound. To date, Odyssey is the sweetest sounding amp I've heard. With the He6se V2, turn up the volume and hear this headphone sound speaker like.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> I have forgotten how lovely these Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base sound. To date, Odyssey is the sweetest sounding amp I've heard. With the He6se V2, turn up the volume and hear this headphone sound speaker like.


Beautiful amp! Is that a NOS Mullard 5AR4?

Very pleased to hear you speak this way with the HE-6SE V2! I will tell you my opinions on e I have my own Oddysey. I think it will be that and a ZMF Vérité and then no more headphones for a long time. 

Thomas received the KT-170s, apparently they're huge.  I have the gold pin 6SL7s and 5AR4s on the way. That will be my "starter pack".

May I ask @UntilThen how you connect your Oddysey? I know it is single ended, but with Yggdrasil, do you connect using RCA or XLR s? I asked for the extra XLRs because I know some DACs output a better signal out of those.

Headphone wise, what else might I need?

I always thought of 
A) Ultra resolving headphone 
B) Something for Vocals / mid-range
C) something for sound stage 
D) A good jack of all trades.

I am very impressed with the sound staging of the SASH Tres - I think better than the HE-6SE V2 with some loss in detail. I do not know how the 'old' Arya or the HD-800s compare. What do you think @UntilThen ?

I would gladly accept suggestions in all 4.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Beautiful amp! Is that a NOS Mullard 5AR4?
> 
> Very pleased to hear you speak this way with the HE-6SE V2! I will tell you my opinions on e I have my own Oddysey. I think it will be that and a ZMF Vérité and then no more headphones for a long time.
> 
> ...



It's a Miniwatt GZ34 made in Sittard Holland. @gibosi has ask me to compare it with the Philips Miniwatt GZ34 metal base. I've never gotten around to it purely because it's rather hard to compare rectifiers but to my ears, they are both absolutely first class tube rectifiers. I also have another Mullard GZ34 f33 and it's new when I had it. These 3 made up my collection of GZ34.

I would use a xlr interconnect between Yggdrasil and Odyssey. Tomas provided an xlr input in Odyssey for convenience.

Odyssey has been absolutely a delight with all my headphones. My favourite is still the He1000se. The others (He6se V2, LCD4 and HD800) are not far behind. They get rotated.

Odyssey is not the gooey (soft and sticky) tube amp. Anyone thinking this would be very surprised when they hear it. This amp has speed, bordering on neutral with such tube sweetness it's hard to describe. Fast transients, attack and airiness. Never dry. It has an incredible tube liquidness. 

HD800 sounds amazing with it. This is the original HD800. Not the HD800S. Now this is a surprise. My friend is a pure classical music listener. His one and only headphone is the HD800. When he first heard his HD800 with Odyssey, he couldn't believe what he is hearing. Yo Yo Ma has never sounded better.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> It's a Miniwatt GZ34 made in Sittard Holland. @gibosi has ask me to compare it with the Philips Miniwatt GZ34 metal base. I've never gotten around to it purely because it's rather hard to compare rectifiers but to my ears, they are both absolutely first class tube rectifiers. I also have another Mullard GZ34 f33 and it's new when I had it. These 3 made up my collection of GZ34.
> 
> I would use a xlr interconnect between Yggdrasil and Odyssey. Tomas provided an xlr input in Odyssey for convenience.
> 
> ...


Ever got the itch for a Susvara?

My Oddysey should accept multiple rectifiers even 5U4s that have a 3A requirement - and will have 2 of those. Maybe from one to the other I will notice a sound change. Tomas says it may.

I think I might get the entire JJ 8 pin stable from pre-amps to rectifiers to power tubes and have some fun swapping and trying!

Then what I like I might be inclined to try "better" more expensive tubes, from other brands.


----------



## xfusion

audiargent said:


> Ever got the itch for a Susvara?
> 
> My Oddysey should accept multiple rectifiers even 5U4s that have a 3A requirement - and will have 2 of those. Maybe from one to the other I will notice a sound change. Tomas says it may.
> 
> ...


IMHO if you have the opportunity to have the top of the line headphone then you should jump to it and you will be less likely to regret. For instance a Susvara, since Odyssey is more than capable to drive Susvara to its full potential, then a Susvara is the same class for an amplifier like Odyssey. Although tonal preference will take into account too but technicality wise, since you will have an Odyssey, it will be wise to get the best to get the best out of it with the Odyssey. IMHO I won't personally consider any ZMF if I am getting an Odyssey , a different league , but that is just me 😅😅😅


----------



## audiargent

xfusion said:


> IMHO if you have the opportunity to have the top of the line headphone then you should jump to it and you will be less likely to regret. For instance a Susvara, since Odyssey is more than capable to drive Susvara to its full potential, then a Susvara is the same class for an amplifier like Odyssey. Although tonal preference will take into account too but technicality wise, since you will have an Odyssey, it will be wise to get the best to get the best out of it with the Odyssey. IMHO I won't personally consider any ZMF if I am getting an Odyssey , a different league , but that is just me 😅😅😅


What would you consider then, headphone wise. Let's say 3 max 4.

HE6-SE V2 right now is not very expensive - and I have it - but based on what @UntilThen said, it scales quite well!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> *Ever got the itch for a Susvara?*
> 
> My Oddysey should accept multiple rectifiers even 5U4s that have a 3A requirement - and will have 2 of those. Maybe from one to the other I will notice a sound change. Tomas says it may.
> 
> ...



All the time but you know it's 7 years for me into this 'hobby'. I've practised control and patience that not all desirable gear need to happen like yesterday.  LCD4 and He1000se came only last year and I'm still enjoying them. Not to mentioned all the tubes that sound golden to me.

Susvara will slot in perfect with Odyssey. In the early stages of planning, I wanted as much power as I could with Odyssey so that it can drive Susvara not just well but perfectly.

Tomas showed me this graph from Todd. This is the threshold of power required at the various SPL for Susvara. Notice you don't want to get to 120SPL (db) - not even for one micro second because to do so will be instant ear damage. You don't even want to get to 115SPL for ~30 secs in a 24 hours period because that will kiss your ears goodbye. 

And let's face it, how many of us listen at 110SPL ? To do that you need 'only' 500 mW. 

I have speaker amps here and I know how Odyssey sound compare to them with He6se V2. As muscular as can be but with better definition and control. 




As for rectifiers, I can also use 5U4G, GZ32, U52, 53KU, etc in Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> What would you consider then, headphone wise. Let's say 3 max 4.
> 
> HE6-SE V2 right now is not very expensive - and I have it - but based on what @UntilThen said, it scales quite well!



You have to figure this one out yourself because we're not all alike. I would say He6se V2 and ZMF Verite Open are a very good starting point with Odyssey. I did regret selling off Verite Open but it's one of those 'why did I sell it' kind of experience. 

And don't lust for all the TOTL headphones in the world. Think of those who only have one Beats.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> As for rectifiers, I can also use 5U4G, GZ32, U52, 53KU, etc in Odyssey.


Have you tried them? What is your opinion on them?


----------



## xfusion (Jan 20, 2022)

audiargent said:


> What would you consider then, headphone wise. Let's say 3 max 4.


I agree with @UntilThen that you have to experience it yourself and not everyone has the same taste and preference, its part of the wonderful journey of this hobby 😄😄. Also 2021 kind of shift peoples top 3 or 4 with the new releases such as LCD 5 and Meze Elite which had my good friend @TheMiddleSky thinking to trade his Abyss Diana Phi for the Elite.

If I have an amplifier that can drive a really hard to drive headphones such as the Odyssey, I will try some hard to drive headphones because of the priviledge from owning the Odyssey. @UntilThen has LCD 4 and HE6-SE which both need the Odyssey to make them sing to its full power and potential. However, for sure Odyssey will make any headphone regardless of price to sound great which @UntilThen experiences with his HD800 😄.

My top 4 favs anyway are LCD 4z, Diana Abyss Phi, Abyss 1266 TC and Susvara, not in the particular order, but I am still keeping my very old LCD 2 too, and am looking forward to try the LCD 5 and Meze Elite 😄😄.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Have you tried them? What is your opinion on them?



Gz32 is warmer. 53Ku is warmer still. Had the GEC U52 before when I had Studio Six but have since sold it with the GEC 6as7g. GEC U52 is a great sounding rectifier. 

I use GZ34 with KT88, EL34, 6550, EL156.

I use 5U4G for EL12 spez, 807, EL39 as advised by Tomas. I only have the infamous GE 5U4G and the Mullard 5U4G 'made in USA' and that tells you it's not a true Mullard.

I'm happy with GZ34 and 5U4G for the transparency and clear tone.


----------



## UntilThen

xfusion said:


> My top 4 favs anyway are LCD 4z, Diana Abyss Phi, Abyss 1266 TC and Susvara



Now that's not fair. Send me your Abyss TC or Susvara or I have to go to Perth to get it.


----------



## xfusion

UntilThen said:


> Now that's not fair. Send me your Abyss TC or Susvara or I have to go to Perth to get it.


I would like to have you in Perth but the stupid Omicron still closes the border 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

smodtactical said:


> Until Tomas makes a new amp


Or next week, whichever comes first.  🤣


----------



## UntilThen

Stop press! I put on new Audeze leather pads on LCD4 and fell off the chair. If you do nothing in 2022, at least buy a pair of Audeze leather pads. The new ones that were released in late 2020 or 2021.

Like Jimmy Cliff you will be singing 'I can see clearly now'.


----------



## audiargent

Those LCD-4s are beautiful. Pity I came late to the party, no one seems to be selling them anymore.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Those LCD-4s are beautiful. Pity I came late to the party, no one seems to be selling them anymore.



They sound more beautiful out of Odyssey. After 2 weeks of EL34 metal base, it's the GEC KT66 turn now. When you get Odyssey, keep in mind these tubes because they are amongst the best in show business.  Smooth and articulate are not what you would use in the same sentence but that's what these GECs are. These are great with vocals. In fact this setup of dac, amp and headphone is perfect for vocals. It will caress your ears and brains.

My tubes and Odyssey are devoid of any noise. Zilch, zip, nada!


----------



## senseitedj

Hi all,

I am interested in the infinity amp, can anyone share their experiences with it?

Any comments related to the differences between the default version, kt66 version and 300b version on website? Any recommendations? I mainly use audeze lcd 4z and heddphone. Cheers!


----------



## DecentLevi

UntilThen said:


> This is my speaker taps cable of pure silver and I had it connected to the speaker terminals. It's playable and there's no noise using my LCD4. However I don't find the need as the headphone outs of Odyssey are already so powerful but it's possible if you want to use it. Definitely lots more power.


Hi UT, digging up an old post as I still play catch-up. This confused me. Did you mean to say the headphone output is actually more powerful than the speaker output? And can speakers be driven equally well from either headphone or speaker output?

Also I was curious: do you find yourself wishing the TR/UL mode switch was somewhere on the front or top? 
Next, your Odyssey doesn't have adjustable gain mode settings, right?

Finally, would anyone here have an opinion on the merit of having adjustable gain settings for speakers? My revised future amp will have 4, 8 and 16 ohm adjustable selections for headphones and I'm considering having the option to also have those adjust gain for speakers as well; which would also mean keeping speaker tap output on F/T - not sure if there would be any disadvantage with that or not.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Hi UT, digging up an old post as I still play catch-up. This confused me. Did you mean to say the headphone output is actually more powerful than the speaker output? And can speakers be driven equally well from either headphone or speaker output?
> 
> Also I was curious: do you find yourself wishing the TR/UL mode switch was somewhere on the front or top?
> Next, your Odyssey doesn't have adjustable gain mode settings, right?
> ...



You're over thinking this. Always leave technical stuff to the designer / engineer / builder. Ours is to enjoy the finished amp. 

In the initial stage I wanted 4 output impedance. Tomas though reasoned that it's not necessary. The build he has in mind will drive any headphones from 8 ohms to 600 ohms.

Glad I listen to him because my 4 headphones of varying impedance are playing like the best orchestra in the world.

He1000se - 35 ohms
He6se V2 - 50 ohms
LCD4 - 200 ohms
HD800 - 300 ohms

Oblivion has a low and high impedance switch for headphones and Odyssey does not. Did I miss anything? Absolutely not. I'm also glad I went with auto bias. That is the best decision.

I think you're getting confused between the speakers out and headphone outputs. Speakers out for for speakers and headphone output are for headphones. It's pretty simple. Headphone outputs are not more powerful than speakers out but headphone outputs are powerful enough to drive He6se V2 and Susvara with room to spare. Just remember, Oblivion can drive Susvara (see @TheMiddleSky and @xfusion feedback) and Odyssey is 5 times more powerful than Oblivion.

Yes I can use speaker out to drive headphones with that cable but I don't need to because the headphone outs has tons of power. 

Morale of the story - don't be power hungry because Odyssey has more power than you can handle.


----------



## DecentLevi

A lot of the design of my (revised) Infinity amp is to be able to pair well with power hungry low-Z headphones with specialized AMT transducers such as Hedd Audio HEDDphone. Extensive amp pairings on various gain settings over several hi-fi meets revealed the sound signature can change quite drastically depending on gain setting on this particular headphone; and in a very specific range - quite differently than the response of a regular planar or dynamic headphone. I wanted to have as many impedance settings as possible - was also wanting 4 (8/32/72/128 ohms) but now that Sowter (the brand I'm going with because that's what yours uses) doesn't do custom transformers anymore it's down to just 4/8/16 ohms, which Tomas convinced me should be enough to power most any headphone... and I'm guessing even up to 300-ish ohm ones as well, Tomas?

Also Matt, how do you activate either dual EL11 or single 6SL7? It seems you have your amp on with both in sometimes.

Also do you have any preference for KT88 or KT77 over KT66 on your Odyssey? And have you tried those GU** tubes that were once 'all the rave' on the Feliks threads? I think they were called GU53 or something, with the appearance of a trash bin outer covering.


----------



## UntilThen

That's why I said to listen to Tomas. The proof is in the listening when you get your amp. Stop listening to those who say they have done extensive amp pairings.  One advantage of my setup is I can listen to both speakers and headphones together or by itself.

EL11 or 6SL7 can be selected by a switch behind. The unused driver can be left in the socket. It won't burn out the tube or if you prefer, you can remove it.

My amp doesn't accept 12v tubes or tubes such as GU50. There are plenty of choices as it is. Tubes that are much better constructed than those cheap Russian GU50s. The hard part is finding a favourite because all the NOS tubes in my collection sound pretty amazing. It's important to buy tubes in good condition, that are noise free.


----------



## audiargent (Jan 24, 2022)

DecentLevi said:


> A lot of the design of my (revised) Infinity amp is to be able to pair well with power hungry low-Z headphones with specialized AMT transducers such as Hedd Audio HEDDphone. Extensive amp pairings on various gain settings over several hi-fi meets revealed the sound signature can change quite drastically depending on gain setting on this particular headphone; and in a very specific range - quite differently than the response of a regular planar or dynamic headphone. I wanted to have as many impedance settings as possible - was also wanting 4 (8/32/72/128 ohms) but now that Sowter (the brand I'm going with because that's what yours uses) doesn't do custom transformers anymore it's down to just 4/8/16 ohms, which Tomas convinced me should be enough to power most any headphone... and I'm guessing even up to 300-ish ohm ones as well, Tomas?
> 
> Also Matt, how do you activate either dual EL11 or single 6SL7? It seems you have your amp on with both in sometimes.
> 
> Also do you have any preference for KT88 or KT77 over KT66 on your Odyssey? And have you tried those GU** tubes that were once 'all the rave' on the Feliks threads? I think they were called GU53 or something, with the appearance of a trash bin outer covering.


Hedd Audio HEDDphone - how do you find it, and what can you compare it to?

Increasingly interested in this as well, being in Europe.

Maybe you can consider Lundhal? Tomas told me they are smaller and he heard good things about them, but has not heard them himself - I do not know if this has since changed.

Regarding driver tubes - mine will autobias those as well - 6SL7 or 6SN7 - if I understood correctly. Thomas told me no switch is necessary and sound quality will be maintained.

Good luck with your amp!

Yes, apparently I was the last lucky one to get those customer Sowters.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jan 25, 2022)

Oh, congrats on being one of the last to get those custom Sowter transformers. I'm told they don't do custom secondary windings, which are necessary to avail. adjustable gain modes. Lundahl are said to be great but also don't offer this customization, so I would encourage people to try Lundahl in a future order if they're looking for auto-bias.

The above was for the output transformer which I would assume impact the sound the most, correct? For the mains transformer, looks like I'll be keeping the existing Toroidy one rather than Hammond, Tomas said it should still be good. Yup 6 SL/SN 7 are virtually identical aside from the gain so I'd say that sounds right.

For the HEDDphone, check my article from CanJam here (3rd day trying it on various systems) and you can also see their main thread. UT I think you may have misspoken somehow _Stop listening to those who say they have done extensive amp pairings_ - those were my own extensive amp pairings, spread out over multiple dates and locations. I trust my own hearing as do others, as well as my evidence based test processes and I think you even agreed with my impressions of it earlier. They almost had to pull me away from that demo rig, LOL.

Well folks, 2022 for me couldn't get any worse being I'm battling moderate/high COVID and life's on hold, missing work, amp delays... but this all must mean things can only get better.


----------



## audiargent

@DecentLevi, first of all I wish you the best for your health. I ordered the amplifier back in October/November. Maybe they just quit now - I know there were some delays in production in some cases.

Thank you for the links - I will be reading them all.

Did you have a look at the Lundhal LL2774 ? It comes with 18/64/300 impedances - and can be used.in Push-pull applications. Of course Tomas would know best.

I hope you will be joining our little "family" soon! My amp should start being built in February! ☺️


----------



## DecentLevi (Feb 5, 2022)

Hey all, just a note then I gotta go for a while. But first, clarifying The bespoke delay relates to shipping back the original unit to Sweden for revision. There is no delay in production nor issue with build - Tomas is a top-flight amp builder expert.


----------



## audiargent

DecentLevi said:


> Hey all, just a note then I gotta go for a while. But first, clarifying The bespoke delay relates to shipping back the original unit to Sweden for revision. There is no delay in production nor issue with build - Tomas is a top-hat amp builder guru!


I was not referring to Tomas with regards to the delay, but Sowter! 

Good luck with your amp!  These HEDDs seem to be quite interesting.


----------



## OctavianH

There's too much silence on the Western Front. Wazzup? If you are bored with your tube amps you can send them to me.


----------



## kawhia (Feb 6, 2022)

Hi folks
i read the first 180 pages of this thread 🤯 and I have to say I am intrigued by Tomas’ amps. I listen to my own and Qobuz’ Flac files via my Roon server. I have a Cambridge Audio Edge NQ Streamer/DAC/Preamp and a Felix Audio Euforia HP amp powering my Abyss Diana V2. I am pretty sold by the Abyss sound. I tried the Verite open and Empyrean at the time and liked the V2 instantaneously. My music is mostly chamber music and jazz, acoustic instruments and vocals. Sometimes other stuff. Thus deep bass is less important than airy, detailed and holographic presentation. I am not interested in tube rolling at all. I want the best sounding amp I can get and be done. My dream setup (all dreamt up and without empirical knowledge  is a dcs Bartok, maybe a Ultrasonic HP and speaker amp into Cube Audio Nenuphar speakers and a 1266TC headphone.
any thoughts on whether an amp by Tomas would be a step up from my Euforia amp and which amp I should be targeting?
ATM I have active speakers and don’t know if I ever want passives again, but the cube audio sound too good. Has there been any talk how Tomas’ amps interact with active loudspeakers?
cheers


----------



## kawhia (Feb 6, 2022)

I should add that I have very little clue about technical details and the inner workings of these boxes. But I have a pretty good idea of what I like in musical reproduction and what not. Eg i dislike my Meze 99 classics for being way to bassy and bloated. Also my Grado RS2e sounds nice with vocals and guitars,  but I love the detail and tempo of my Diana V2. Different league. That is also why I’d love to audition the 1266 and Susvara one day. The day will come


----------



## baronbeehive (Feb 6, 2022)

OctavianH said:


> There's too much silence on the Western Front. Wazzup? If you are bored with your tube amps you can send them to me.


Yes I was wondering where is everyone!

I'm extending the chassis on my amp atm so waiting for burn in on some new capacitors inside, I'm not bored but maybe UT is fed up with all things to do with amplifiers and tubes 🙂.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Yes I was wondering where is everyone!
> 
> I'm extending the chassis on my amp atm so waiting for burn in on some new capacitors inside, I'm not bored but maybe UT is fed up with all things to do with amplifiers and tubes 🙂.


I think he's still looking for his golf ball on the 8th hole.  He's way too cheap to just use another one.


----------



## OctavianH

bcowen said:


> I think he's still looking for his golf ball on the 8th hole.  He's way too cheap to just use another one.


Rumors say he is on the "SS" land with a Burson amp. I will not speak about such a heresy more.


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> Rumors say he is on the "SS" land with a Burson amp. *I will not speak about such a heresy more.*


Thank you.  I'm pretty sure profanity is not allowed in this thread.  😁


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> There's too much silence on the Western Front. Wazzup? If you are bored with your tube amps you can send them to me.



Very nice. How are you liking the Final D8000? You know I rather send you Monet 'Water Lilies' than Odyssey right?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I think he's still looking for his golf ball on the 8th hole.  He's way too cheap to just use another one.



I specialise in the 19th hole but I'm good in all the other holes. That's a given.



OctavianH said:


> Rumors say he is on the "SS" land with a Burson amp. I will not speak about such a heresy more.



Have you been stalking me?



bcowen said:


> Thank you.  I'm pretty sure profanity is not allowed in this thread.  😁



Oh no we don't use 4 letter words here. Maybe 5 or 6.


----------



## UntilThen

kawhia said:


> Hi folks
> i read the first 180 pages of this thread 🤯 and I have to say I am intrigued by Tomas’ amps. I listen to my own and Qobuz’ Flac files via my Roon server. I have a Cambridge Audio Edge NQ Streamer/DAC/Preamp and a Felix Audio Euforia HP amp powering my Abyss Diana V2. I am pretty sold by the Abyss sound. I tried the Verite open and Empyrean at the time and liked the V2 instantaneously. My music is mostly chamber music and jazz, acoustic instruments and vocals. Sometimes other stuff. Thus deep bass is less important than airy, detailed and holographic presentation. I am not interested in tube rolling at all. I want the best sounding amp I can get and be done. My dream setup (all dreamt up and without empirical knowledge  is a dcs Bartok, maybe a Ultrasonic HP and speaker amp into Cube Audio Nenuphar speakers and a 1266TC headphone.
> any thoughts on whether an amp by Tomas would be a step up from my Euforia amp and which amp I should be targeting?
> ATM I have active speakers and don’t know if I ever want passives again, but the cube audio sound too good. Has there been any talk how Tomas’ amps interact with active loudspeakers?



Alright Dr UntilThen is here with some advise.

What you want is Odyssey or Telemachus or possibly Citadel and specify preamp out.

Chamber music, jazz, acoustic instruments and vocals are handle with optimum SQ by Odyssey. I've no doubt Telemachus and Citadel will do the job just as well. Airy, detailed and holographic are associated with my golf swing as much as with the Ultrasonic amps I just mentioned.

Oh these amps are many steps up from Euforia. How do I know? I had Elise and Euforia many moons ago.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I specialise in the 19th hole but *I'm good in all the other holes. *That's a given.


I'm just gonna go ahead and leave that alone.  🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Thank you.  I'm pretty sure profanity is not allowed in this thread.  😁


Polite profanity is OK; for example, “f##k you, sir!” 🤣


----------



## jonathan c

OctavianH said:


> Rumors say he is on the "SS" land with a Burson amp. I will not speak about such a heresy more.


It’s time for a mutiny on the SS Burson ⚔️


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> I specialise in the 19th hole but I'm good *in *all the other holes.


“In” 😮 rather than “at”?….😳


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Very nice. How are you liking the Final D8000? You know I rather send you Monet 'Water Lilies' than Odyssey right?


I quite like them, I am still in the process of assessment because I own them only for 2 months. They are very good, at the moment on top of my preferences. Actually I like them so much that I'll try the Pro version and then decide to keep both, keep one or throw myself and my wallet on the window. Let's hope one of the first 2 options. LOL


UntilThen said:


> Have you been stalking me?


I'm looking from time to time on the "Show me what you got" thread.


----------



## baronbeehive (Feb 7, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Alright Dr UntilThen is here with some advise.
> 
> What you want is Odyssey or Telemachus or possibly Citadel and specify preamp out.
> 
> ...


@kawhia you said _". Thus deep bass is less important than airy, detailed and holographic presentation. I am not interested in tube rolling at all. I want the best sounding amp I can get and be done."_

Listen to Dr. Until then!

Going by what you said an Ultrasonic amp looks to be just the ticket! They excel in soundstage. Odyssey is the only "old school" amp in the range, ie. it will sound very much like you might expect because it doesn't have the "new school" hybrid SS components such as Mosfets to drive the output. Don't forget Telemachus is a 300B amp so would suit vocals more probably. Nobody has reviewed that yet here though.

You won't need active amps with these amps.

I'm only going by what I know but I'm not an Ultrasonic amp owner.

BTW although UntilThen is a "doctor" he is no golfer from what I've heard so the reference to his golf swing should be taken with a word of caution as it is nowhere near as smooth as the Ultrasonic amps 🙂.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> BTW although UntilThen is a "doctor" *he is no golfer from what I've heard *so the reference to his golf swing should be taken with a word of caution as it is nowhere near as smooth as the Ultrasonic amps 🙂.


I heard that his game improved substantially after getting a new caddy.


----------



## baronbeehive (Feb 7, 2022)

bcowen said:


> I heard that his game improved substantially after getting a new caddy.


So you've finally given up??? 🤣

Edit: It can't be any fun having to dive to the bottom of the lake every time he hits a tee shot 🙂.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> So you've finally given up??? 🤣
> 
> Edit: It can't be any fun having to dive to the bottom of the lake every time he hits a tee shot 🙂.


I got a new job making $4/hour effectively doubling my previous compensation.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> I got a new job making $4/hour effectively doubling my previous compensation.


👍👍.

Good, I should think the only safe place to be in your previous job would be to stand right in front when he's teeing off 😲.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> 👍👍.
> 
> Good, I should think the only safe place to be in your previous job would be to stand right in front when he's teeing off 😲.


🤣🤣🤣


----------



## kawhia

UntilThen said:


> Alright Dr UntilThen is here with some advise.
> 
> What you want is Odyssey or Telemachus or possibly Citadel and specify preamp out.
> 
> ...


I'll continue reading the thread and come back with some questions, thanks. You'd suggest Odyssey over Oblivion, even if I am not interested in tube rolling? I have not read your comments on the pairing of Odyssey and 1266 TC, but will get there. Is Odyssey driving any headphone, the likes of 1266 and Susvara?


----------



## kawhia

baronbeehive said:


> You won't need active amps with these amps.


Thanks for your feedback. As I understand I'd probably go for XLR pre-amp outpüts in order to connect them with my active speakers (or any other active speaker I may have in the future). Going back to passive speakers is probably not going to happen, even though the number of options is of course way bigger with passives.


----------



## baronbeehive (Feb 7, 2022)

kawhia said:


> Thanks for your feedback. As I understand I'd probably go for XLR pre-amp outpüts in order to connect them with my active speakers (or any other active speaker I may have in the future). Going back to passive speakers is probably not going to happen, even though the number of options is of course way bigger with passives.


Probably, I'm not sure if the XLR's are preamp outputs, you would have to ask Sonic.

Edit: But why would you need an Ultrasonic amp if you are going to use active speakers? I don't think it would be worth it to have the Ultrasonic amp as well as the SQ would probably not transfer through to your speakers in that case.


----------



## kawhia

I keep reading this thread and Iam almost done. It is like a love novel, with some trivia on tubes, humour  and suspense. Great mix  It is very entertaining and educating for sure.


----------



## kawhia

baronbeehive said:


> Probably, I'm not sure if the XLR's are preamp outputs, you would have to ask Sonic.
> 
> Edit: But why would you need an Ultrasonic amp if you are going to use active speakers? I don't think it would be worth it to have the Ultrasonic amp as well as the SQ would probably not transfer through to your speakers in that case.


True. This isn’t thought out well yet. But I might want to part with my Cambridge Edge one day and have a different streamer/dac. Then I’d like a great preamp/headphone amp in one unit. And I am wondering if this could be an Ultrasonic amp. 
By theory I want three components: streamer/dac - pre/ HP amp - active speakers and headphones. This is kind of flexible but it also limiting the boxes in my family’s living room. I have to keep it civil


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I heard that his game improved substantially after leaving cart ‘n clubs in the lake.


FTFY…[Reg.TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## UntilThen

kawhia said:


> I'll continue reading the thread and come back with some questions, thanks. You'd suggest Odyssey over Oblivion, even if I am not interested in tube rolling? I have not read your comments on the pairing of Odyssey and 1266 TC, but will get there. Is Odyssey driving any headphone, the likes of 1266 and Susvara?



My headphones are He1000se, He6se V2, LCD4 and HD800. 35, 50, 200 and 300 ohms respectively. I've not heard Odyssey with Abyss TC and Susvara though I've heard Susvara several times with other amps at the shop. With Wa33, Chord Hugo TT2 alone and with Auris Nirvana.

Given how well Odyssey drives He6se V2, I don't see it having a problem driving Susvara and Abyss. Though Odyssey is designed primarily as a headphone amp, Tomas told me it's got muscles as a speaker amps when he finished it. I've to agree after hearing how well it's driving my Axis Voicebox S in nearfield listening.

Yes I did suggest Odyssey over Oblivion even though you're not interested in tube rolling. These days I'm using Psvane KT88 Tii power tubes with Sylvania 6SL7gt and Sittard 5AR4 made in Holland rectifier. After 6 months, I don't change tubes often anymore and I'm still enjoying the euphony from Odyssey very much.


----------



## SonicTrance

Here's a Citadel finished! This one has all regular add-ons there is! 









Next it's Odyssey time!


----------



## audiargent (Feb 10, 2022)

SonicTrance said:


> Next it's Odyssey time!


Fantastic build!! Finally, super excited!!


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> Here's a Citadel finished! This one has all regular add-ons there is!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stunning!  What output tubes are those?


----------



## SonicTrance

bcowen said:


> Stunning!  What output tubes are those?


Thanks! Those are EL36's.


----------



## audiargent

SonicTrance said:


> Thanks! Those are EL36's.


Can they be used with Odyssey? I think they would need adaptors?


----------



## SonicTrance

audiargent said:


> Can they be used with Odyssey? I think they would need adaptors?


Not safely, no. Voltage is too high in Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Here's a Citadel finished! This one has all regular add-ons there is!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I would have love my Oblivion to be a Citadel but I think I'm satisfied.  

The new owner will be pleased no doubt.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Fantastic build!! Finally, super excited!!



Finally a second Odyssey gets underway. I received Odyssey on the 13th August 2021 so it's exactly 6 months now. 

So the 6 months report from me:-

I'm still amazed at how my headphones sound from Odyssey. Whether it's LCD4, He1000se, He6se V2 or HD800, there is nothing I would change if I had to do the amp again. There's always that sparkle from Odyssey that I don't hear from other amps - tube or solid state. 

I use Odyssey regularly to power my Axis Voicebox S speakers watching movies, Olympics, Australian Open Tennis, etc. 

This amp has been running faultless since day one and fortunately none of my tubes hum and this tube amp is just plain quiet with no music playing. 

I'll be watching how your amp turn out.


----------



## OctavianH

Given the recent circumstances I have become more impatient. So the amplifier Tomas had to build me in 2045 at 75 years from the release of the first Black Sabbath album will be built in 2025 and it will be a Citadel! 20 years earlier, 20 years of more sonic pleasure.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Given the recent circumstances I have become more impatient. So the amplifier Tomas had to build me in 2045 at 75 years from the release of the first Black Sabbath album will be built in 2025 and it will be a Citadel! 20 years earlier, 20 years of more sonic pleasure.



A Citadel in 2025?  

I am listening to this with He6se V2 through Odyssey using Psvane KT88 Tii. The bass is surreal.


----------



## OctavianH

Yes, but a special Citadel. I have some ideas, some plans. It will be special.

I am listening to this, Pat Benatar cover, it is an incredible song.


----------



## audiargent

OctavianH said:


> Yes, but a special Citadel. I have some ideas, some plans. It will be special.


I would like one with 300Bs! Some EML 300B XLS!

@UntilThen - I am planning to get those tubes!!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> @UntilThen - I am planning to get those tubes!!



These Psvanes? Yeah they are pretty good. I use them mainly as I don't want to burn up my NOS tubes.  

KT88 leans more towards neutral, is punchy and dynamic. Now when I say leans towards neutral, I don't mean it's neutral because no tube amp will sound neutral. It will always have some flavours.


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 12, 2022)

audiargent said:


> I would like one with 300Bs! Some EML 300B XLS!


I do not like anymore expensive tubes. But I would like one with 12E1 CV345. Those are almost suitable to KT88 builds but need pin 3 on top cap anode. Read here.
I would like a citadel wired for KT88 which has also top cap to accept natively GEC 12E1. Get that and not 300B 

*Later edit:* Now imagine that Citadel wired for KT88 and 6SL7 which accepts also CV345. And it has also some tube rolling opportunities. You can roll KT66/77/88 or EL34. But you can connect CV345 via a removable top cap option. Interesting isn't it? You get all the beauty of those and also a special tube. But regarding this special tube, I'll try it first in Eternity, even if at 200V/20mA it is not quite in the linear zone which Tomas considers might add more distortion. But I guess we can move the Citadel to let's say 300V/50mA and CV345 will work fine. And it will drive also some speakers. We will see. I told you it will be a special Citadel, tentatively named "Black Sabbath" but you can build it first, I have no problem and I am sharing some thoughts, in the end whoever builds it first teaches us about the results. If not, I'll be the culprit in 2025. 

Ah, is CV345 beautiful? In my opinion much more than 300B.


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> I do not like anymore expensive tubes. But I would like one with 12E1 CV345. Those are almost suitable to KT88 builds but need pin 3 on top cap anode. Read here.
> I would like a citadel wired for KT88 which has also top cap to accept natively GEC 12E1. Get that and not 300B
> 
> *Later edit:* Now imagine that Citadel wired for KT88 and 6SL7 which accepts also CV345. And it has also some tube rolling opportunities. You can roll KT66/77/88 or EL34. But you can connect CV345 via a removable top cap option. Interesting isn't it? You get all the beauty of those and also a special tube. But regarding this special tube, I'll try it first in Eternity, even if at 200V/20mA it is not quite in the linear zone which Tomas considers might add more distortion. But I guess we can move the Citadel to let's say 300V/50mA and CV345 will work fine. And it will drive also some speakers. We will see. I told you it will be a special Citadel, tentatively named "Black Sabbath" but you can build it first, I have no problem and I am sharing some thoughts, in the end whoever builds it first teaches us about the results. If not, I'll be the culprit in 2025.
> ...


Thats a very serious looking tube.  Check out those abs.  🤣


----------



## OctavianH

bcowen said:


> Thats a very serious looking tube.  Check out those abs.  🤣


Haha, that's a tube we need to give more attention. And I'll do it.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Thats a very serious looking tube.  Check out those abs.  🤣



They are like my abs.


----------



## LoryWiv

I have 6-pack abs. They are just inside of a cooler.


----------



## UntilThen

These are just one pack abs but what a solid one pack. @audiargent of all the tubes I could recommend you, I would recommend you the Telefunken EL156. They make all your troubles go away and you're filled with an inner karma.


----------



## rollinbr

I'll second Matt's recommendation for the EL156. I currently have 6 of them. They don't come up for sale very often. I'm using them in the Eric McChanson KT150 amp I had built and named "Chameleon". With Matt's help Chameleon arrived here in the US safely last September. Here's a picture of Chameleon while I was rolling tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Ah Chameleon.  I hope you're enjoying that monster. @audiargent 's Odyssey will dwarf our amps. 10w into 50 ohms is what he says.

Speaking of monsters, I love powerful tubes such as Telefunken EL156. It's muscular and tight. Clarity is up a few notches. I'm ready to buy my own Tung Sol KT150 which Kevin Deal speaks highly of. The last time I had KT150 in Odyssey, it's powerful alright with a commanding midrange, tight bass and penetrating high end.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Ah Chameleon.  I hope you're enjoying that monster. @audiargent 's Odyssey will dwarf our amps. 10w into 50 ohms is what he says.
> 
> Speaking of monsters, I love powerful tubes such as Telefunken EL156. It's muscular and tight. Clarity is up a few notches. I'm ready to buy my own Tung Sol KT150 which Kevin Deal speaks highly of. The last time I had KT150 in Odyssey, it's powerful alright with a commanding midrange, tight bass and penetrating high end.


@SonicTrance still needs to do the actual testing but based on simulations he has run - if I understood correctly - it may be even higher than that.

That is why I have asked for a gain switch. There is also impedance regulation as well.... So we could even get more power, should we need it.

I know if is totally off the charts, buy I wanted to have no doubt that the HE-6SEs where not being adequately powered.

I heard some nice things about KT-170, that they may be a notch above the KT-150, not only power wise. We'll see.

Those EL-156 are some interesting tubes. Difficult to find however, and rare. Anybody knows where I can search for them?


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> I know if is totally off the charts, buy I wanted to have no doubt that the HE-6SEs where not being adequately powered.



The Odyssey that I have is not even at 50% max power and you won't want it any louder unless you want to do carnal damage to your hearing. There's no way you'd want to feed 10w into that headphone. You'll just be cruising along using only a tiny portion of that power. 

That's a shame you don't have speaker out on that amp because that will drive speakers nicely and it will drive He6se V2 like a baby. Laymen wants as much power as possible to drive the He6se. I use the Kenwood KA-3300D rated at 150 watts into 8 ohms to drive the He6se but I will tell you that Odyssey drive that headphone much better, with more poise and control than the monstrous vintage solid state. The Kenwood though drives my lounge floorstanders very well.  

Just google Telefunken EL156 and there are several nice ones out there. They are just a bit expensive that's all.


----------



## senseitedj

After debating with myself and consulting my with friends between infinity and telemachus... I have finally made the order for the telemachus and look forward to join the UltraSonic Studios family, as well as share my experiences with the amp!

Can't wait to have a go at Ultrasonic Studio's take on the 300b tube!


----------



## TheSoloist

Hi everyone, new to this thread and nice meeting you all. 

Getting very excited after reading hundreds of pages feedbacks from owners of Ultrasonic Studio's amp. To be very honest, I have not been a tube amp guy in my head/hi-fi journey so my knowledge is rather limited compare to most members in this thread. From the comments, it sounds to me that the Odyssey is something I might get the most pleasure listening in my system. That said, having very little experience in tube amps, jumping straight into the Odyssey may be a irrational move. Would the Eternity / Oblivion be a good place to start with experiencing Tomas' creation?


----------



## OctavianH

TheSoloist said:


> Would the Eternity / Oblivion be a good place to start with experiencing Tomas' creation?


Do not take an amp with manual grid bias setting if you do not have experience. Go for auto-bias. You can of course order an Eternity with auto-bias or any other model.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> After debating with myself and consulting my with friends between infinity and telemachus... I have finally made the order for the telemachus and look forward to join the UltraSonic Studios family, as well as share my experiences with the amp!
> 
> Can't wait to have a go at Ultrasonic Studio's take on the 300b tube!



Congrats. Good choice. I had another look at the http://ultrasonicstudios.org/telemachus/ site and it's a juicy 12.5w into 8 ohms. It's a beautiful looking amp from the pictures there. Any amps sporting Sowter transformers are serious amps.



TheSoloist said:


> Hi everyone, new to this thread and nice meeting you all.
> 
> Getting very excited after reading hundreds of pages feedbacks from owners of Ultrasonic Studio's amp. To be very honest, I have not been a tube amp guy in my head/hi-fi journey so my knowledge is rather limited compare to most members in this thread. From the comments, it sounds to me that the Odyssey is something I might get the most pleasure listening in my system. That said, having very little experience in tube amps, jumping straight into the Odyssey may be a irrational move. Would the Eternity / Oblivion be a good place to start with experiencing Tomas' creation?



Looks like you have to sample the Ultrasonic amps for yourself and why not. I have Oblivion and Odyssey now and still thinking of Telemachus.

Tomas's amps have the signature tone of fast transients, dynamics, clarity and details, with wide soundstage and bass done right. I don't think you will be disappointed with any of them. I'm glad though that the Ultrasonic Studio amps have more recognition now and it deserve to be.


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> Congrats. Good choice. I had another look at the http://ultrasonicstudios.org/telemachus/ site and it's a juicy 12.5w into 8 ohms. It's a beautiful looking amp from the pictures there. Any amps sporting Sowter transformers are serious amps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes spent some time on that page...

Apparently you can spec. Yamamoto sockets for the 300b tubes and Mundorf capacitors... which is really interesting.

Curious to know which of the 3 types of tubes there creates the biggest influence in changing the sound.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Yes spent some time on that page...
> 
> Apparently you can spec. Yamamoto sockets for the 300b tubes and Mundorf capacitors... which is really interesting.
> 
> Curious to know which of the 3 types of tubes there creates the biggest influence in changing the sound.



If I were to get Telemachus, I will have Yamamoto sockets for all the 5 sockets and Mundorf caps. In Odyssey, the tubes that influence sound the most are the power tubes and I would expect the Telemachus to be the same but hey it's an amp I'm not familiar with. The 6sn7s drivers may have more influence. However I don't think you want to be rolling 300b tubes.


----------



## senseitedj (Feb 17, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> If I were to get Telemachus, I will have Yamamoto sockets for all the 5 sockets and Mundorf caps. In Odyssey, the tubes that influence sound the most are the power tubes and I would expect the Telemachus to be the same but hey it's an amp I'm not familiar with. The 6sn7s drivers may have more influence. However I don't think you want to be rolling 300b tubes.



300b rolling sounds like a dark financial black hole. Might just get a WE or Tat and call it a day

The yamamoto sockets I have been made aware are only available with the 300b socket for the tele, due to the topology of the build.

The application of the Yamamoto socket and Mundorf capacitor depends on the topology of the circuit, which is why this add-on is not offered on all amps

EDIT: Ref to the yamamoto sockets, I am not 100% sure of this fact, hope @SonicTrance can clarify


----------



## SonicTrance

senseitedj said:


> 300b rolling sounds like a dark financial black hole. Might just get a WE or Tat and call it a day
> 
> The yamamoto sockets I have been made aware are only available with the 300b socket for the tele, due to the topology of the build.
> 
> ...


I can clear this up. There's been some misunderstanding  
The Yamamoto sockets can be used regardless of topology. For your Telemachus all sockets will be Yamamoto.


----------



## TheSoloist

UntilThen said:


> Tomas's amps have the signature tone of fast transients, dynamics, clarity and details, with wide soundstage and bass done right. I don't think you will be disappointed with any of them. I'm glad though that the Ultrasonic Studio amps have more recognition now and it deserve to be.



This sound signature is exactly what makes me so interested in Tomas's amps . Will certain try to look for ways that I can give it a try (to the extent necessary, purchase one).


----------



## senseitedj

SonicTrance said:


> I can clear this up. There's been some misunderstanding
> The Yamamoto sockets can be used regardless of topology. For your Telemachus all sockets will be Yamamoto.



For the tele, which tube change influences the sound the most? In my WA6 its pretty much the rectifier, and it's quite a scholarly subject in that thread.

The driver tube upgrade, on the other hand, is quite a straightforward affair, especially with the 2nd gen.


----------



## SonicTrance

senseitedj said:


> For the tele, which tube change influences the sound the most? In my WA6 its pretty much the rectifier, and it's quite a scholarly subject in that thread.


All tubes will change the sound in Telemachus. The 300B's are transformer loaded and the 6SN7's have a resistor load so they'll both change the sound. It all depends on the tubes and their curves. 
What the rectifier does is change the operating points for the audio tubes and in that way it also change the sound. I always recommend to go for a regulated power supply though but many want to use the rectifier tubes.


----------



## senseitedj

SonicTrance said:


> All tubes will change the sound in Telemachus. The 300B's are transformer loaded and the 6SN7's have a resistor load so they'll both change the sound. It all depends on the tubes and their curves.
> What the rectifier does is change the operating points for the audio tubes and in that way it also change the sound. I always recommend to go for a regulated power supply though but many want to use the rectifier tubes.


I see. Thanks for the clarification 

So what would be the pros and cons of going with either psu topology? And why do you personally recommend the regulated power supply?


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> I see. Thanks for the clarification
> 
> So what would be the pros and cons of going with either psu topology? And why do you personally recommend the regulated power supply?



Tomas will reply no doubt but I'll point you to this article on 'Tube vs Solid State rectification'. https://www.mojotone.com/blog/tube-vs-solid-state-rectifiers

Even though I had solid state rectification when I had the Glenn OTL amp built for me, I chose tube rectification for Odyssey. No regrets there as GZ34 and 5U4G rectifiers that I use mainly in Odyssey have satisfy me. Sufficient tightness for me.

Today I roll back in the Siemens EL11 drivers and I've been using 6SL7 drivers exclusively for at least 1 month. These EL11 drivers sounded better at picking out details to my ears while the 6SL7 is about slam. I can run it in UL mode with feedback using EL11 and this is so good on Odyssey with the Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base and Mullard 5U4G rectifier.


----------



## SonicTrance

senseitedj said:


> I see. Thanks for the clarification
> 
> So what would be the pros and cons of going with either psu topology? And why do you personally recommend the regulated power supply?


I recommend a SS rectified, regulated, power supply mainly because it's technically better and you'll get a quiet background even with sensitive headphones. You won't get that with a non regulated, tube rectified, power supply.

Pros for a tube rectifier is nr 1 it looks damn cool with big bulb tubes! I'm a sucker for the big bulbs myself so I understand people want to use them. Also, you get a slightly warmer tone but that can be replicated with a regulated supply as well.


----------



## senseitedj

SonicTrance said:


> I recommend a SS rectified, regulated, power supply mainly because it's technically better and you'll get a quiet background even with sensitive headphones. You won't get that with a non regulated, tube rectified, power supply.
> 
> Pros for a tube rectifier is nr 1 it looks damn cool with big bulb tubes! I'm a sucker for the big bulbs myself so I understand people want to use them. Also, you get a slightly warmer tone but that can be replicated with a regulated supply as well.



I see, the main reasoning for speccing tube rectification is because all of the amps which left an impression on me usually have a tube rectifier: WA 6, WA 5, Alo Studio 6. So its a matter of monkey see monkey do sort of thinking. 

My other reasoning is that it gives that I think it gives that extra touch of warmth, and since Telemachus is a hybrid amp, I am guessing there is sufficient speed in its sonic signature where it would not necessitate a SS power supply to fit with my listening preferences.  In any case, there are 'clean' sounding rectifier tubes out there with sufficiently low noise floor, although not as clean as an SS, it's clean enough. That's just my thoughts...


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> Tomas will reply no doubt but I'll point you to this article on 'Tube vs Solid State rectification'. https://www.mojotone.com/blog/tube-vs-solid-state-rectifiers
> 
> Even though I had solid state rectification when I had the Glenn OTL amp built for me, I chose tube rectification for Odyssey. No regrets there as GZ34 and 5U4G rectifiers that I use mainly in Odyssey have satisfy me. Sufficient tightness for me.
> 
> Today I roll back in the Siemens EL11 drivers and I've been using 6SL7 drivers exclusively for at least 1 month. These EL11 drivers sounded better at picking out details to my ears while the 6SL7 is about slam. I can run it in UL mode with feedback using EL11 and this is so good on Odyssey with the Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base and Mullard 5U4G rectifier.



Do you see any noise floor difference between your SS glenn OTL and Odyssey, when testing against your more sensitive HPs?


----------



## SonicTrance

senseitedj said:


> My other reasoning is that it gives that I think it gives that extra touch of warmth, and since Telemachus is a hybrid amp, I am guessing there is sufficient speed in its sonic signature where it would not necessitate a SS power supply to fit with my listening preferences. In any case, there are 'clean' sounding rectifier tubes out there with sufficiently low noise floor, although not as clean as an SS, it's clean enough. That's just my thoughts...


That depends on what you mean by hybrid. To me none of my amps are hybrid amps since all amplification is done by the tubes.

It's not the rectifier tube that's noisy. It's the unregulated power supply with the rectifier tube in it. You can have a regulator after a rectifier tube and get dead silent background but then you'll get no "sound" from the rectifier tube. All will sound the same.
I hope that clear things up.


----------



## gibosi

senseitedj said:


> I see, the main reasoning for speccing tube rectification is because all of the amps which left an impression on me usually have a tube rectifier: WA 6, WA 5, Alo Studio 6. So its a matter of monkey see monkey do sort of thinking.
> 
> My other reasoning is that it gives that I think it gives that extra touch of warmth, and since Telemachus is a hybrid amp, I am guessing there is sufficient speed in its sonic signature where it would not necessitate a SS power supply to fit with my listening preferences.  In any case, there are 'clean' sounding rectifier tubes out there with sufficiently low noise floor, although not as clean as an SS, it's clean enough. That's just my thoughts...



I have a Glenn OTL, and in my opinion, the main reason to use tube rectification is it gives you more control over tone. Essentially, I use them as "tone controls" to add a little more bass, or more treble or to emphasize the mid range and so on.

But of course, introducing a rectifier tube into the mix adds further to the complexity. It's another variable that has to be considered. And of course, acquiring a nice collection of rectifier tubes can be expensive. Unfortunately, tubes that are highly regarded and sought after have become quite expensive.


----------



## senseitedj

gibosi said:


> I have a Glenn OTL, and in my opinion, the main reason to use tube rectification is it gives you more control over tone. Essentially, I use them as "tone controls" to add a little more bass, or more treble or to emphasize the mid range and so on.
> 
> But of course, introducing a rectifier tube into the mix adds further to the complexity. It's another variable that has to be considered. And of course, acquiring a nice collection of rectifier tubes can be expensive. Unfortunately, tubes that are highly regarded and sought after have become quite expensive.



Yeah I own a WA6 SE, and roll rectifier tubes for similar reasons and already have a collection of rectifier tubes as a result. 

Just dont want to miss out on my tube rolling options if I go with SS PSU and to also utilise the little collection I have...


----------



## SonicTrance

senseitedj said:


> Just dont want to miss out on my tube rolling options if I go with SS PSU and to also utilise the little collection I have...


I do offer a add-on to be able to switch between SS and tube rectification if you're interested? Just tube rectification is of course ok as well. At least now you know the reasoning behind my opinion.

What headphones are you using?


----------



## senseitedj (Feb 18, 2022)

SonicTrance said:


> I do offer a add-on to be able to switch between SS and tube rectification if you're interested? Just tube rectification is of course ok as well. At least now you know the reasoning behind my opinion.
> 
> What headphones are you using?



LCD-4z (15 ohm, 98db/mw) and HEDDphone (42 ohm, 87db/mw) mostly at the moment.

That is an interesting proposition and I will get back to you on that, we can keep it as tube rectification for now


----------



## UntilThen

Because I get super quietness with a tube rectified Odyssey, I never yearned for ss rectified, regulated power supply. I know Tomas rebuild the power supply in my Odyssey to make it quiet even with my 35 ohms He1000se. Not sure why I'm using He6se V2 most of the time these days. The tone and over all comfort must be the reason. However I get these spells where I would like a particular headphone for a while. I'm sure I'll go back to He1000se and LCD4 at some point.

I'm a sucker for big bulb tubes that also sound great. Tubes being tubes, they just sound better to me than solid states. The Burson Soloist 3xp hasn't been touched for a week now.  

This is one of my fav big bulbs picture. See how shiny those glasses are. It's like whisky glasses. That's a Mullard GZ32 in there.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Yeah I own a WA6 SE, and roll rectifier tubes for similar reasons and already have a collection of rectifier tubes as a result.



If you already have a nice collection of tube rectifiers, use it.  I regretted selling my GEC U52 for $400. To buy a new one now will cost me $900.  

You know what. You should take that option that Tomas offer. To switch between ss and tube rectification. 

Now regarding your question - 


senseitedj said:


> Do you see any noise floor difference between your SS glenn OTL and Odyssey, when testing against your more sensitive HPs?



Those 2 amps exists in 2 different time space and I've never had them together at the same time. I also had the ALO Studio Six, which is a well executed quiet amp. 

However Odyssey is my most powerful and quiet amp. It's also the amp that gave me the most joy with it's tone. I stop yearning for other tube amps until Tomas produced Telemachus.


----------



## kawhia

UntilThen said:


> Because I get super quietness with a tube rectified Odyssey, I never yearned for ss rectified, regulated power supply. I know Tomas rebuild the power supply in my Odyssey to make it quiet even with my 35 ohms He1000se. Not sure why I'm using He6se V2 most of the time these days. The tone and over all comfort must be the reason. However I get these spells where I would like a particular headphone for a while. I'm sure I'll go back to He1000se and LCD4 at some point.
> 
> I'm a sucker for big bulb tubes that also sound great. Tubes being tubes, they just sound better to me than solid states. The Burson Soloist 3xp hasn't been touched for a week now.
> 
> This is one of my fav big bulbs picture. See how shiny those glasses are. It's like whisky glasses. That's a Mullard GZ32 in there.


Hey UT, how do you like the meters? Do they move to the music? Does the color of light match well with the tube glow? I cannot decide on the small or larger meters on the Citadel I have put an order for in.


----------



## UntilThen

kawhia said:


> Hey UT, how do you like the meters? Do they move to the music? Does the color of light match well with the tube glow? I cannot decide on the small or larger meters on the Citadel I have put an order for in.



Tomas has an eye for visual details. In early stage of Odyssey development, I wanted to tell him how to orientate the transformers. Then I realise that's best left to him.  

The mA meters in that Odyssey chassis is just right. Colour and size that is. Colour of meters matches the tube glow. I wanted the dancing VU meters initially but no luck and I stop lusting for dancing meters.  My Oblivion have mA meters that are stationery as well. The size of the meters fits Oblivion there and it looks good.

However the latest Telemachus use the dancing VU meters and I still haven't heard any impressions from the owner. Telemachus chassis is bigger and the VU meters fits it.


----------



## SonicTrance

kawhia said:


> Hey UT, how do you like the meters? Do they move to the music? Does the color of light match well with the tube glow? I cannot decide on the small or larger meters on the Citadel I have put an order for in.


There's no room for big meters on silver Citadel, unfortunately.


----------



## UntilThen

kawhia said:


> I cannot decide on the small or larger meters on the Citadel I have put an order for in.



I suppose you're getting the black Citadel? The small orange meters looks good on it too. So yeah tough choice. Glad I'm not making them.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> There's no room for big meters on silver Citadel, unfortunately.



I see so @kawhia is getting the silver Citadel. Then it's a no brainer. The small orange mA meters fits the silver Citadel just like it did on Odyssey.


----------



## kawhia

UntilThen said:


> Tomas has an eye for visual details. In early stage of Odyssey development, I wanted to tell him how to orientate the transformers. Then I realise that's best left to him.
> 
> The mA meters in that Odyssey chassis is just right. Colour and size that is. Colour of meters matches the tube glow. I wanted the dancing VU meters initially but no luck and I stop lusting for dancing meters.  My Oblivion have mA meters that are stationery as well. The size of the meters fits Oblivion there and it looks good.
> 
> However the latest Telemachus use the dancing VU meters and I still haven't heard any impressions from the owner. Telemachus chassis is bigger and the VU meters fits it.


For sure I trust Tomas‘ eye for aesthetics. I am totally smitten for this silver citadel that I hope to call mine by the end of summer  
And you are right, why have dancing meters. I will think of it more like an air pressure meter 💨. We are about to get hit by a huge storm over here. I better run for cover.


----------



## kawhia

UntilThen said:


> I see so @kawhia is getting the silver Citadel. Then it's a no brainer. The small orange mA meters fits the silver Citadel just like it did on Odyssey.


Yes. Silver Citadel. With small orange meters. And all add ons.  Very exciting.


----------



## UntilThen

kawhia said:


> Yes. Silver Citadel. With small orange meters. And all add ons.  Very exciting.



Lucky man.


----------



## kawhia (Feb 18, 2022)

Without wanting to derail the discussion, does anyone have an opinion on rca cables to connect source and hp amp? Mine are very cheap and I am considering a Kimber Kable. Feel free to pm me thanks.


----------



## audiargent (Feb 18, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> The Odyssey that I have is not even at 50% max power and you won't want it any louder unless you want to do carnal damage to your hearing. There's no way you'd want to feed 10w into that headphone. You'll just be cruising along using only a tiny portion of that power.
> 
> That's a shame you don't have speaker out on that amp because that will drive speakers nicely and it will drive He6se V2 like a baby. Laymen wants as much power as possible to drive the He6se. I use the Kenwood KA-3300D rated at 150 watts into 8 ohms to drive the He6se but I will tell you that Odyssey drive that headphone much better, with more poise and control than the monstrous vintage solid state. The Kenwood though drives my lounge floorstanders very well.
> 
> Just google Telefunken EL156 and there are several nice ones out there. They are just a bit expensive that's all.


HiFiMan's EF-1000 is 20W into 35 ohms...

So not far away from my Oddysey I hope.

And that was made for the Susvara. So that headphone (and similarly the HE-6SE) must really crave power.

@senseitedj - how do you find the HEDDphone? Hard to drive? Worth it for the money?


----------



## UntilThen

kawhia said:


> Without wanting to derail the discussion, does anyone have an opinion on rca cables to connect source and hp amp? Mine are very cheap and I am considering a Kimber Kable. Feel free to pm me thanks.



No derailment here. From One Night in Bangkok to tubes, cables music, it all happens here.

These are the rca cables that I have but I use an xlr to connect Yggy to Odyssey. Sometimes I use one of these. Nothing too expensive but they are alright.

QED 40



Chord Clearway


Curious cable


Redgum rca


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> HiFiMan's EF-1000 is 20W into 35 ohms...
> 
> So not far away from my Oddysey I hope.
> 
> And that was made for the Susvara. So that headphone (and similarly the HE-6SE) must really crave power.



I won't delve into that. Power requirements have been over talked in the Susvara thread. Everyone can determine for themselves what is enough power for Susvara or what is ideal.

Having heard speaker amps and Odyssey with He6se I know what is ideal. For that matter, Auris Nirvana is less powerful than Odyssey but to my ears it is sufficient with Susvara because I have a 2 hours session with it.

There's also a misconception comparing tube amps and solid state power. They are not apples to apples comparison.


----------



## bcowen

kawhia said:


> Without wanting to derail the discussion, does anyone have an opinion on rca cables to connect source and hp amp? Mine are very cheap and I am considering a Kimber Kable. Feel free to pm me thanks.


If you can solder, make your own.  Easy to do, and with the right cable/wire they can sound very good.


----------



## leftside

mA or Vu? Get both  You might need two chassis though. Tomas is saying "go away leftside". haha


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> mA or Vu? Get both  You might need two chassis though. Tomas is saying "go away leftside". haha



Mirror mirror on the wall, whose got the most tubes and meters on their amps of them all.


----------



## kawhia

leftside said:


> mA or Vu? Get both  You might need two chassis though. Tomas is saying "go away leftside". haha


One extra chassis only for some meters. Great idea. Tomas will raise his prices soon only to compensate for the crazy bunch he has to deal with over here 😂.


----------



## senseitedj

audiargent said:


> HiFiMan's EF-1000 is 20W into 35 ohms...
> 
> So not far away from my Oddysey I hope.
> 
> ...



HEDDphone is a great headphone. It's priced similarly to an LCD-X but can compete technically against TOTL flagships.

Its on the heavy side for comfort, but its really not as bad as what the online community says. 

It images extremely well and great detail retrieval. FR is on the neutral side and is abit bass shy. Doesn't slam as hard as Audeze headphones. Detail retrieval is great but brings out the details in a non-instrusive way.

Sound changes if you use a different output impedance. With the 50 ohm tap in WA6 things sounded closer and more prominent slam, with the 8 ohm tap everything was further away and I get less of that impact from the sound.

Catch it is difficult to drive. My WA6 SE is rated at 2W has clipping issues. Burson Conductor on balanced out is 3W and I could still a little bit of clipping sometimes. The only amp that can drive it without clipping are headphone out of my Audiolab A6000, and that's a speaker amp. Its -10db shy of its max volume

Which is part of the reason why I am getting one of Tomas' amps so I will get a TOTL component and I won't have to worry about power issues ever again!


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> If you already have a nice collection of tube rectifiers, use it.  I regretted selling my GEC U52 for $400. To buy a new one now will cost me $900.
> 
> You know what. You should take that option that Tomas offer. To switch between ss and tube rectification.
> 
> ...



Its very temping, offer it will be interesting to do a comparison between the two PSUs...


----------



## OctavianH

VU meters on my amp have a very useful purpose except the looks. They measure the output signal, so the more you turn up your volume the more they move and this is a very healthy volume check to be sure I am not listening to higher volume levels than expected. With some recordings or planars, you might put your ear to more noise level than needed. Ah, sorry, music. Anyway, good stuff to have such configured VU meters in my case.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Mirror mirror on the wall, whose got the most tubes and meters on their amps of them all.


LOL!  A tube roller's dream.  Or nightmare, depending on perspective.  😂


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> VU meters on my amp have a very useful purpose except the looks. They measure the output signal, so the more you turn up your volume the more they move and this is a very healthy volume check to be sure I am not listening to higher volume levels than expected. With some recordings or planars, you might put your ear to more *noise level* than needed. Ah, sorry, music. Anyway, good stuff to have such configured VU meters in my case.


Haha, I think you were talking about symphonic rock 🙂, or possibly the Smiths.. yes I know that is controversial.. just my preference.

I think VU meters could be distracting when trying to listen to music, but I take your point about showing how the amp responds to power levels.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> LOL!  A tube roller's dream.  Or nightmare, depending on perspective.  😂


I think UT secretly lusts after one of these: 






🤩😍🤣.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> I think UT secretly lusts after one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> 🤩😍🤣.


ROFL!  The only problem is the radiation from the nuclear-powered tubes in front makes your hair fall out after a while.  😁


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 19, 2022)

baronbeehive said:


> I think VU meters could be distracting when trying to listen to music, but I take your point about showing how the amp responds to power levels.


I have a switch on the back to turn them off, used it once to check if it works. LOL

But rolling tubes with different gains might need volume adjustment, I watch from time to time the meters to check volume level.

These EL34 are good:


----------



## audiargent

senseitedj said:


> Sound changes if you use a different output impedance. With the 50 ohm tap in WA6 things sounded closer and more prominent slam, with the 8 ohm tap everything was further away and I get less of that impact from the sound.




That is why I wanted adjustable impedance on my Oddysey.  

Do you rate them close or competing to the 4Z so to speak... Resolution, Imaging, Timbre etc?

In Europe I can find them at a mor decent price, new.

It is currently being built!


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  The only problem is the radiation from the nuclear-powered tubes in front makes your hair fall out after a while.  😁


That’s Mc Intosh’s leprechaun power my friend, lol. 😀


----------



## senseitedj (Feb 19, 2022)

audiargent said:


> That is why I wanted adjustable impedance on my Oddysey.
> 
> Do you rate them close or competing to the 4Z so to speak... Resolution, Imaging, Timbre etc?
> 
> ...



Its close to 4z in terms of technical performance: Detail retrieval, speed. Much wider soundstage.

FR on audeze is U-shaped, Heddphone follows harman target as it is used by alot of mastering professionals

Details are slightly more obvious in 4z because its intimate presentation, but imaging is alot better on the HEDD

Detail retrieval is good but everything sounds further away, might need getting used to if you come from intimate-sounding HPs, such as focals

Timbre sounds most natural in HEDD, idk how to describe the audeze timbre tho.

Imaging is tricky to describe: HEDDphone can do depth seperatation, height better than Audeze - differences in placement is more obvious. In Audeze there is abit of that but seperation is not spaced out as the HEDD.

Just be aware of the ceveat: Power and weight. But your amp should be able to handle it . Weight is noticable at first but its not as bad as what the internet describes it.

Congrats on the build cant wait to hear your impressions


----------



## leftside

bcowen said:


> LOL!  A tube roller's dream.  Or nightmare, depending on perspective.  😂


Yes. Both.


----------



## UntilThen

This is why I went with tube rectification. Why I didn't use my Cossor 53ku more I don't know....  Sounds great and looks great. Move aside McIntosh. Let Odyssey show how it's done.


----------



## UntilThen

So I bite the bullet and will buy the GEC KT88 soon... why? Well I am listening to GEC KT66 now and it's sooooo good. So I thought to myself. How much better would the GEC KT88 be? There's only one way to find out.


----------



## jonathan c

As I recall, with bcowen being the ‘odd’ expert, it’s the KT77 that one should look into…🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> So I bite the bullet and will buy the GEC KT88 soon... why? Well I am listening to GEC KT66 now and it's sooooo good. So I thought to myself. How much better would the GEC KT88 be? There's only one way to find out.


The ultimate Head-Fi equation:

1 arm + 1 leg  ==  2 happy ears.


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> As I recall, with bcowen being the ‘odd’ expert, it’s the KT77 that one should look into…🤷🏻‍♂️



There’s a saying..,,

If you can’t get the lobster, get the tiger prawn.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm looking at the tiger prawn hakakaka


----------



## Zachik

jonathan c said:


> As I recall, with bcowen being the ‘odd’ expert, it’s the KT77 that one should look into…🤷🏻‍♂️





UntilThen said:


> There’s a saying..,,
> 
> If you can’t get the lobster, get the tiger prawn.


@bcowen - I think you were just on the receiving end of the weirdest insult in human history...   
I wonder if ANYONE was ever called a "tiger prawn" before


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> @bcowen - I think you were just on the receiving end of the weirdest insult in human history...
> I wonder if ANYONE was ever called a "tiger prawn" before


LOL!  Nah, @jonathan c has just been drinking and meant to say it's 'odd that I'm the expert.'  And @UntilThen , well, it's always like he's been drinking.  🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

Zachik said:


> @bcowen - I think you were just on the receiving end of the weirdest insult in human history...
> I wonder if ANYONE was ever called a "tiger prawn" before


….what do you expect from a resident in the “nether” hemisphere?….the _sea-level _version of:


----------



## kawhia

UntilThen said:


> No derailment here. From One Night in Bangkok to tubes, cables music, it all happens here.
> 
> These are the rca cables that I have but I use an xlr to connect Yggy to Odyssey. Sometimes I use one of these. Nothing too expensive but they are alright.
> 
> ...


Nice. So your are rolling cables as well? 
A question to you: If tube rolling is 10/10 in difference to sound signature how much is swapping rca cables? 3/10? 
It can’t be more than that. 😃


----------



## kawhia

Once I have my new citadel amp I plan on ordering a Susvara and a 1266TC for an audition. I know a salesman that offers them for auditioning. Very excited.


----------



## kawhia (Feb 21, 2022)

albums with great music and sound quality
https://i.imgur.com/HOi2dfq.png
https://i.imgur.com/S8HF55F.png
https://i.imgur.com/y2p2jRa.png
https://i.imgur.com/UbaTxVF.png

Edit: sharing from Roon doesn’t really work….


----------



## kawhia (Feb 21, 2022)

I love lute ❤️ 😃 it’s a freaking great instrument 😊
Edit: I am a little tipsy. It is my daughters 10th birthday and we had family over. Now listening to some great music
https://i.imgur.com/CDRwqZO.png


----------



## UntilThen

kawhia said:


> Nice. So your are rolling cables as well?
> A question to you: If tube rolling is 10/10 in difference to sound signature how much is swapping rca cables? 3/10?
> It can’t be more than that. 😃



I don't roll rca cables, earpads or headphone cables. Some rabbit holes I don't want to go into.


----------



## kawhia (Feb 21, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> I don't roll rca cables, earpads or headphone cables. Some rabbit holes I don't want to go into.


I was joking. But some people do… I prefer listening to music than listening to my equipment.
Edit: though Bon Jovi on this cables sounds awesome 😎


----------



## kawhia (Feb 21, 2022)

fantastic album/artist I want to share before I go to bed.
https://i.imgur.com/MN0pfg1.png
Cheers.
One of the greatest albums in terms of SQ imho is this
https://i.imgur.com/sKZRz3i.png


----------



## bcowen

kawhia said:


> I was joking. But some people do… I prefer listening to music than listening to my equipment.
> Edit: though Bon Jovi on this cables sounds awesome 😎


If a cable makes Bon Jovi sound awesome, guard it with your life.   

(I like a lot of Bon Jovi's music....just that most of the recordings are terrible)


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> If a cable makes Bon Jovi sound awesome, guard it with your life.
> 
> (I like a lot of Bon Jovi's music....just that most of the recordings are terrible)


…and if it makes Marilyn Manson sound awesome, send it _immediately _to @bcowen, who will demonically pay all postage / shipping costs 😈…


----------



## senseitedj

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  The only problem is the radiation from the nuclear-powered tubes in front makes your hair fall out after a while.  😁


Good luck buying the tubes in matched sets xD


----------



## jonathan c

senseitedj said:


> Good luck buying the tubes in matched sets xD


….forget measuring Gm with a TV-7….it’s Geiger counter time!…☢️…☠️…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> ….forget measuring Gm with a TV-7….it’s Geiger counter time!…☢️…☠️…


Probably best to modify a 752A.  Looks like there's _just_ enough room to add "Nuclear" after the 117v on the filaments.


----------



## baronbeehive

kawhia said:


> I love lute ❤️ 😃 it’s a freaking great instrument 😊
> Edit: I am a little tipsy. *It is my daughters 10th birthday* and we had family over. Now listening to some great music
> https://i.imgur.com/CDRwqZO.png


Happy birthday to her 🙂.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> …and if it makes Marilyn Manson sound awesome, send it _immediately _to @bcowen, who will demonically pay all postage / shipping costs 😈…


Marilyn Manson just looks awesome, he sounds terrible 🙂.


----------



## baronbeehive

senseitedj said:


> Good luck buying the tubes in matched sets xD


Well, they're all matched... in green 😀.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Probably best to modify a 752A.  Looks like there's _just_ enough room to add "Nuclear" after the 117v on the filaments.


... and warp drive after "filament" 😁.


----------



## baronbeehive

I feel better now 👍.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> ... and warp drive after "filament" 😁.


LOL!  I've always wondered what tubes have 117v heaters.  I'm guessing nothing in the noval family.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I've always wondered what tubes have 117v heaters.  I'm guessing nothing in the noval family.


…torpedoes…?….running silent, running deep…


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I've always wondered what tubes have 117v heaters.  I'm guessing nothing in the noval family.


Even my heater doesn't have 117v heaters 🙂.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> Marilyn Manson just looks awesomeful, he sounds terrible 🙂.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## leftside

Enjoy all you beautiful people on this thread


----------



## audiargent

baronbeehive said:


> Marilyn Manson just looks awesome, he sounds terrible 🙂.


I really like his later works.

The Pale Emperor really sounds fine to me on Qobuz.


----------



## baronbeehive

audiargent said:


> I really like his later works.
> 
> The Pale Emperor really sounds fine to me on Qobuz.


I will certainly check it out.


----------



## baronbeehive

A big thanks guys for getting me to 1000 likes, it took a while! I shall treasure each and every one .


----------



## OctavianH

Ha, broke it. LOL


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> A big thanks guys for getting me to 1000 likes, it took a while! I shall treasure each and every one .


We were hoping you'd like that.  🤣


----------



## bcowen

leftside said:


> Enjoy all you beautiful people on this thread



That one falls into the big pile of Manson tunes that I don't like at all. 

This is better.  Full tilt electric bass guitars cranked to 11....what's not to like?  😂


----------



## OctavianH

Hmm, and I thought this one is strange:


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> A big thanks guys for getting me to 1000 likes, it took a while! I shall treasure each and every one .



Our pleasure. We're liberal with our likes here.


----------



## UntilThen

This is what I'm rewarded with when I get up in the middle of the night. Trying out the Radiotron 807 that I have forgotten but @OctavianH reminded me.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Our pleasure. We're liberal with our likes here.


Sadly there is no hope of catching up you or bcowen 😩😭


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> This is what I'm rewarded with when I get up in the middle of the night. Trying out the Radiotron 807 that I have forgotten but @OctavianH reminded me.


Haha, you even have to get up in the night for a quick listen 🙂.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Haha, you even have to get up in the night for a quick listen 🙂.



When an audiophile tone hits your ears, it's like a drug. You just need more of it constantly. Listening with He1000se now. 6 months on I still haven't got enough of Odyssey.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> When an audiophile tone hits your ears, it's like a drug. You just need more of it constantly. Listening with He1000se now. 6 months on I still haven't got enough of Odyssey.


What are the dimensions of your Odyssey chassis?


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> What are the dimensions of your Odyssey chassis?



It's the same chassis as silver Citadel. So it's :-

*Silver Citadel dimensions:*
Height: 260mm incl. spikes and transformer.
Depth: 380mm incl. knobs and speaker outputs.
Width: 380mm.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> It's the same chassis as silver Citadel. So it's :-
> 
> *Silver Citadel dimensions:*
> Height: 260mm incl. spikes and transformer.
> ...


Same like I will get then, but in black!

I will have top mounted mA meters though.

And a really clean front!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Same like I will get then, but in black!
> 
> I will have top mounted mA meters though.
> 
> And a really clean front!



Oh I thought you're getting a bigger chassis. So is your chassis the same as Oblivion?


----------



## UntilThen

To give you an idea of the size of Odyssey and Oblivion in relation to Yggdrasil and the Denon DP-47f. Can't believe I haven't touch those 4 units for 2 months plus.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Oh I thought you're getting a bigger chassis. So is your chassis the same as Oblivion?


Appearance wise, it should be black, but it should be the same size as yours I think, same chassis.

I needed the smallest platform / foot area possible, and Thomas made it work.

As I said, it will follow the aesthetic of Audio-GD products. Hopefully I will be able to complete the music chain as I wish, and have not only a good sounding but also aesthetically pleasing set of equipment - at least to me.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Appearance wise, it should be black, but it should be the same size as yours I think, same chassis.
> 
> I needed the smallest platform / foot area possible, and Thomas made it work.
> 
> As I said, it will follow the aesthetic of Audio-GD products. Hopefully I will be able to complete the music chain as I wish, and have not only a good sounding but also aesthetically pleasing set of equipment - at least to me.



That's interesting that there will be a black Odyssey of the same chassis.


----------



## OctavianH

I'll need a black shinny chassis for my future Citadel build called Black Sabbath otherwise I'll have to call it Silver Sabbath and a better version would be Silver Surfer. So I wait to see some picture with this build.


----------



## UntilThen

Or you can have a purple chassis and call it Deep Purple. The wonders of having a custom amp.


----------



## OctavianH

Let's hope I'll not have it in red, then I'll have to call it Red Hot Chili Peppers. I quite like red ones.





Or why not, no discrimination and I'll call it Rainbow. Dio was a nice singer anyway. LOL


----------



## audiargent

OctavianH said:


> I'll need a black shinny chassis for my future Citadel build called Black Sabbath otherwise I'll have to call it Silver Sabbath and a better version would be Silver Surfer. So I wait to see some picture with this build.


Eventually I should have EML 5U4Gs and I think will get TJ Fullmusic KT88s and 6SN7s. It should look darn good.

I heard good things about those tubes as well. Hopefully I do not break the bank.

First I'm going with a full Tung-Sol set. KT170s, 6SL7 Gold Pins and 5AR4s. I'll report on how it sounds, especially with the HE-6SE V2, the reason why I got the amp in the first place.


----------



## OctavianH

audiargent said:


> Eventually I should have EML 5U4Gs and I think will get TJ Fullmusic KT88s and 6SN7s. It should look darn good.
> 
> I heard good things about those tubes as well. Hopefully I do not break the bank.
> 
> First I'm going with a full Tung-Sol set. KT170s, 6SL7 Gold Pins and 5AR4s. I'll report on how it sounds, especially with the HE-6SE V2, the reason why I got the amp in the first place.


One of the things I learned during time is that you should never plan an amplifier based on some specific tubes you want to use. A tube will never sound in the same way in different amplifiers. You can, of course, decide some sockets and families and so on, based on your current know how, but that's it. I built an amplifier for KT66/6J5 and now I barely use those. I use more EL34/807/6SL7. I guess you are on a good path with octal sockets and KT88 wiring on outputs, also with 6SL7. But what tubes you will use only time will tell. Regarding wallet, put a flower on its grave


----------



## triod750

OctavianH said:


> Regarding wallet, put a flower on its grave


----------



## audiargent

OctavianH said:


> Regarding wallet, put a flower on its grave


Very encouraging, thanks! :'D


----------



## Zachik

OctavianH said:


> Regarding wallet, put a flower on its grave


If he had money left for a flower - he would just buy another tube!


----------



## OctavianH

Zachik said:


> If he had money left for a flower - he would just buy another tube!


That's how an investor is thinking, based on the inflation rate evolution in Europe. That's what I would also do. Our money are loosing value, let's do the right thing.


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> That's how an investor is thinking, based on the inflation rate evolution in Europe. That's what I would also do. Our money are loosing value, let's do the right thing.


O brothers, where art thou's hast been?  I was beginning to feel like a lone hoarder.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> O brothers, where art thou's hast been?  I was beginning to feel like a lone hoarder.


Bill, I hate to say that but: @OctavianH is an investor. You are just a hoarder!   
(I was lying... I did not hate saying that. There.  )


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Eventually I should have EML 5U4Gs and I think will get TJ Fullmusic KT88s and 6SN7s. It should look darn good.
> 
> I heard good things about those tubes as well. Hopefully I do not break the bank.
> 
> First I'm going with a full Tung-Sol set. KT170s, 6SL7 Gold Pins and 5AR4s. I'll report on how it sounds, especially with the HE-6SE V2, the reason why I got the amp in the first place.



Go NOS for Nostalgic Old School. 

Odyssey is just the start of the big spend but it's worth it.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Appearance wise, it should be black, but it should be the same size as yours I think, same chassis.



A black chassis but the Sowter output transformers are in silver. Are those going to have black end caps too?


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> Bill, I hate to say that but: @OctavianH is an investor. You are just a hoarder!
> (I was lying... I did not hate saying that. There.  )


So back to the 'lone' thing then?  Crap.  

Wait... @UntilThen hoards amps.  Just the same, only different,  That counts, right?


----------



## UntilThen

I wouldn't call having 5 amps hoarding but Sparkos Aries is thrown into my hands for evaluation. I'm going to see if I can insert some tubes into it.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I wouldn't call having 5 amps hoarding but Sparkos Aries is thrown into my hands for evaluation. I'm going to see if I can insert some tubes into it.


Anything more than 4 amps is hoarding.  And if you only had 4, the number would be 3.  It's Imperial math...not sure how to convert it to metric.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Or you can have a purple chassis and call it Deep Purple. The wonders of having a custom amp.


Or get a matching DAC w/femtosecond capabilities and call it Clockwork Orange.

Audiophile humor is the BEST!  🤣😂


----------



## hikaru12

Has anyone heard the Infinity amp? It's one of the only models that allows you to tube roll. I want a detailed and dynamic sound. I like a bit of bass slam. Curious how it would compare to other SET offerings like the ZMF Pendant etc.


----------



## UntilThen

hikaru12 said:


> Has anyone heard the Infinity amp? It's one of the only models that allows you to tube roll. I want a detailed and dynamic sound. I like a bit of bass slam. Curious how it would compare to other SET offerings like the ZMF Pendant etc.



Haven't heard Infinity but all you want there and more are found in Odyssey.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> A black chassis but the Sowter output transformers are in silver. Are those going to have black end caps too?


I think so yes. Tomas said they would be black.


----------



## OctavianH

hikaru12 said:


> Has anyone heard the Infinity amp? It's one of the only models that allows you to tube roll.


I think you should not focus on a specific amplifier because of lack of tube rolling. Tomas is a custom amp builder, meaning he can make you any amp you want. The models from his website are examples, topologies as he likes to call them, showing you what can be done. But you can start from there and imagine your perfect amp, then discuss with him the technical part. I think he can make you whatever amp you like with tube rolling possibilities, you need to find out which is your starting point and then customize it. As far as I know Citadel has no tube rolling oportunities because of the top caps. But you can make your Citadel with octal sockets wired for KT88 and then you can use several types of tubes natively. And the same for Oblivion. As I said, many of our amps were born because we wanted more than he was offering at that point in time. Do not remain stuck on 4-5 models from the website, this is the beauty of a custom amplifier, you can be a part of its design and tailor it based on your needs. Do it, I want to see new ideas!


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey was born because of 'Berlin'.  I wanted to use Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez. So the idea grew from there. I also wanted to use KT88 and EL34 and equivalent family of power tubes. Tomas made all that happen. Odyssey project consumed me from start to finish. I held my breath on the first listen because I had no idea what to expect. Before Berlin's song finish, I broke into a big smile.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey was born because of 'Berlin'.  I wanted to use Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez. So the idea grew from there. I also wanted to use KT88 and EL34 and equivalent family of power tubes. Tomas made all that happen. Odyssey project consumed me from start to finish. I held my breath on the first listen because I had no idea what to expect. Before Berlin's song finish, I broke into a big smile.


Would you mind sharing the song?


----------



## hikaru12

OctavianH said:


> I think you should not focus on a specific amplifier because of lack of tube rolling. Tomas is a custom amp builder, meaning he can make you any amp you want. The models from his website are examples, topologies as he likes to call them, showing you what can be done. But you can start from there and imagine your perfect amp, then discuss with him the technical part. I think he can make you whatever amp you like with tube rolling possibilities, you need to find out which is your starting point and then customize it. As far as I know Citadel has no tube rolling oportunities because of the top caps. But you can make your Citadel with octal sockets wired for KT88 and then you can use several types of tubes natively. And the same for Oblivion. As I said, many of our amps were born because we wanted more than he was offering at that point in time. Do not remain stuck on 4-5 models from the website, this is the beauty of a custom amplifier, you can be a part of its design and tailor it based on your needs. Do it, I want to see new ideas!


That’s good to know. I’m thinking I’d want a 6BX7/12AX7 on a citadel build for ease of tube rolling, power output and dynamics. Odyssey is way over my budget. I’m thinking $2-3k for the amp.


----------



## bcowen

audiargent said:


> Would you mind sharing the song?


Pretty sure it was this one, although it was originally titled "Take My Aussie Away".


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Pretty sure it was this one, although it was originally titled "Take My Aussie Away".




That's the one.  Odyssey was supposed to be call Berlin when I was in Glenn's thread. It was a long time in the making. So long it even got a name change.  Some things I couldn't plan. It just happen.


----------



## UntilThen (Feb 25, 2022)

Tonight or early this morning, I'm using Sparkos Aries with my headphones. I can't help but think it sounded a lot like Oblivion but my honest opinion is that Oblivion is better.  Sparkos belongs to my friend. He ask me to listen to get my opinion. Anything that sounded like Oblivion has to be good. Wide soundstage, clarity and details and a slight warm, it's pretty engaging.


----------



## hikaru12

UntilThen said:


> Tonight or early this morning, I'm using Sparkos Aries with my headphones. I can't help but think it sounded a lot like Oblivion but my honest opinion is that Oblivion is better.  Sparkos belongs to my friend. He ask me to listen to get my opinion. Anything that sounded like Oblivion has to be good. Wide soundstage, clarity and details and a slight warm, it's pretty engaging.


The OP amps in the Burson tend to lean towards that more natural presentation (especially in the soundstage). It’s probably only second to the HPA-4 at a cheaper cost.


----------



## UntilThen

hikaru12 said:


> The OP amps in the Burson tend to lean towards that more natural presentation (especially in the soundstage). It’s probably only second to the HPA-4 at a cheaper cost.



This is not the Burson but Sparkos Aries. Incidentally I have the Burson Soloist 3xp.


----------



## hikaru12

UntilThen said:


> This is not the Burson but Sparkos Aries. Incidentally I have the Burson Soloist 3xp.


The Aries is an OP amp based amp. They also sell op amps for use in other amps like the Burson.


----------



## OctavianH

So you can technically roll OP-Amps. I had many years ago a PC soundcard Asus Xonar ST. That one had also Op-Amps and I've exchanged a few. Funny times.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> So you can technically roll OP-Amps. I had many years ago a PC soundcard Asus Xonar ST. That one had also Op-Amps and I've exchanged a few. Funny times.



Yes you can roll op-amps but it's too much bother so I don't do it. Another thing is if you roll Sparkos op-amps in Burson, you void the warranty. Not that you need to because I find the v6 vivid op-amps in Burson just fine to my ears.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey was born because of 'Berlin'.  I wanted to use Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez. So the idea grew from there. I also wanted to use KT88 and EL34 and equivalent family of power tubes. Tomas made all that happen. Odyssey project consumed me from start to finish. *I held my breath on the first listen *because I had no idea what to expect. Before Berlin's song finish, I broke into a big smile.


Judging by your comments since you have had Odyssey you are still holding it... so breeeeeath..... 🙂🥴🙃.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Judging by your comments since you have had Odyssey you are still holding it... so breeeeeath..... 🙂🥴🙃.



Odyssey is varied enough to keep me interested. I haven't use my 12au7, 12at7 and 12ax7 drivers for a very long time.

When I came home just before Christmas, I had no idea that I will be away from some of my gear for more than 2 months.


----------



## audiargent (Feb 26, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey was born because of 'Berlin'.  I wanted to use Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez. So the idea grew from there. I also wanted to use KT88 and EL34 and equivalent family of power tubes. Tomas made all that happen. Odyssey project consumed me from start to finish. I held my breath on the first listen because I had no idea what to expect. Before Berlin's song finish, I broke into a big smile.


I promise you this is the first thing I will hear using Odyssey. On the HE-6SE s


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> I promise you this is the first thing I will hear using Odyssey. On the HE-6SE s



I can't wait to see your Odyssey. It will look amazing with the big meters on top or the small orange meters in front. Against a black chassis, this will be another iconic looking tube amp. On top of that, it will have a lot more power which is always good.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> I can't wait to see your Odyssey. It will look amazing with the big meters on top or the small orange meters in front. Against a black chassis, this will be another iconic looking tube amp. On top of that, it will have a lot more power which is always good.


Big meters on top.  From what I have seen till now, quite a good looking amp. @SonicTrance knows what he is doing  I'm very excited too.


----------



## senseitedj

audiargent said:


> Big meters on top.  From what I have seen till now, quite a good looking amp. @SonicTrance knows what he is doing  I'm very excited too.



I've opted with the standard mA meters in the front. Hopefully I can use them to see how much current goes through my difficult to drive HPs


----------



## OctavianH

senseitedj said:


> I've opted with the standard mA meters in the front. Hopefully I can use them to see how much current goes through my difficult to drive HPs


As far as I know the current you will see through those meters is constant. It is the operating point where your tubes are set to run. It does not depend on load or anything else. So you will see them raise up to x mA (in my case 4mA for input stage and 20mA for output) and then remain there as long as the amp is on. Of course, Tomas can confirm this, he knows better what is doing in your specific build.


----------



## senseitedj

OctavianH said:


> As far as I know the current you will see through those meters is constant. It is the operating point where your tubes are set to run. It does not depend on load or anything else. So you will see them raise up to x mA (in my case 4mA for input stage and 20mA for output) and then remain there as long as the amp is on. Of course, Tomas can confirm this, he knows better what is doing in your specific build.



You're probably right. in that case, its still useful then you can visually see if you're tubes are potentially sounding funny.


----------



## audiargent

senseitedj said:


> I've opted with the standard mA meters in the front. Hopefully I can use them to see how much current goes through my difficult to drive HPs


What HPs do you have?


----------



## senseitedj

audiargent said:


> What HPs do you have?


HEDDphone, lcd 4z

The former is giving me a headache in terms.of drivability


----------



## UntilThen

Was not until I spend a week with Sparkos Aries and Odyssey that I realised how good Odyssey is. Solid states are supposed to be details focussed but Odyssey is oceans apart. Odyssey is clearer and brings an orchestra sound. 

Sparkos Aries is going back to the owner today. To be fair, it's a great sounding amp but Odyssey just puts it in the shadows.


----------



## OctavianH

I tried many headphones recently, some of them quite expensive, on TT2's integrated amplifier and Eternity. In every case I preferred Eternity. The most recent test was with D8000 Pro and I returned to my tube amplifier after around 30 minutes. But those were long minutes, because I knew the answer in the first 5.


----------



## leftside

Not sure if your amps with the static volt and millamp meters are the same as mine, but a good use for them is to turn the amp on and then wait a few seconds until these meters have reached the values they are meant to be at as the amp warms up, and then plug in your headphones. It's kind of like a nice safety mechanism.


----------



## OctavianH

leftside said:


> Not sure if your amps with the static volt and millamp meters are the same as mine, but a good use for them is to turn the amp on and then wait a few seconds until these meters have reached the values they are meant to be at as the amp warms up, and then plug in your headphones. It's kind of like a nice safety mechanism.


I never unplug my headphones, but I always put volume to 0 when turning off and turn on the volume only when currents reach expected value. I never had problems. For sure, unplug of headphone jack is the safest way but for me, well, less comfortable.


----------



## xfusion

OctavianH said:


> I tried many headphones recently, some of them quite expensive, on TT2's integrated amplifier and Eternity. In every case I preferred Eternity. The most recent test was with D8000 Pro and I returned to my tube amplifier after around 30 minutes. But those were long minutes, because I knew the answer in the first 5.


I am pretty sure you knew the answer in the first 5 SECONDS ... just like me with my Oblivion too, everytime, after long minutes with other amps.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> I promise you this is the first thing I will hear using Odyssey. On the HE-6SE s



You have to hear 'Take my breath away' as the first song. Let Terri Nunn do her magic.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Not sure if your amps with the static volt and millamp meters are the same as mine, but a good use for them is to turn the amp on and then wait a few seconds until these meters have reached the values they are meant to be at as the amp warms up, and then plug in your headphones. It's kind of like a nice safety mechanism.



On both my Oblivion and Odyssey, that's how I know when I'm ready to start listening. On Oblivion it's at 30 mA and on Odyssey it's at 50 to 60 mA. So those meters serve a purpose for me.


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> On both my Oblivion and Odyssey, that's how I know when I'm ready to start listening. On Oblivion it's at 30 mA and on Odyssey it's at 50 to 60 mA. So those meters serve a purpose for me.



Those steady-state mA values are dependent on the tube you have on right?


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Those steady-state mA values are dependent on the tube you have on right?



For Odyssey yes. Oblivion is just one type of tubes.


----------



## senseitedj

Also, what's the popular opinion on fuse upgrades with Ultrasonic amps?

Just bought SR purple fuse the other day for my WA6 SE (2nd gen) and I was amazed by the improvements it made, in spite of my rock-bottom expectations.  Was wondering if its worth considering for a fuse upgrade or spec a higher end fuse for your amp?


----------



## UntilThen

I'm allergic to fuse rolling.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I'm allergic to fuse rolling.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


>


The _key _line in “A Fuse’s Good, Men!”  🤣🤣


----------



## senseitedj

jonathan c said:


> The _key _line in “A Fuse’s Good, Men!” 🤣🤣



Hey! you use a SR purple fuse too on some of ur amps


----------



## OctavianH

Carefully guys with purple fuses, your amps will play only this song afterwards:


----------



## senseitedj

OctavianH said:


> Carefully guys with purple fuses, your amps will play only this song afterwards:







Not quite purple, but I am on planet Pink Floyd in The Division Bell album


----------



## baronbeehive

senseitedj said:


> Not quite purple, but I am on planet Pink Floyd in The Division Bell album


My favourite Floyd album, you have good taste 👍.


----------



## baronbeehive

senseitedj said:


> Also, what's the popular opinion on fuse upgrades with Ultrasonic amps?


My opinion is unmentionable 🙂.


----------



## senseitedj

baronbeehive said:


> My favourite Floyd album, you have good taste 👍.



One of those albums where tube amps can really make it shine even more


----------



## baronbeehive

senseitedj said:


> One of those albums where tube amps can really make it shine even more


Yes, their best produced album I believe, some of theirs weren't produced that well.


----------



## senseitedj

Yeah I feel the same way too about some of their albums, but my other go tos are:

The Dark Side of the moon
Wish you were here
Animals 
Final cut

But Division Bell is definitely number 1, especially with nice tube amp.


----------



## baronbeehive

senseitedj said:


> Yeah I feel the same way too about some of their albums, but my other go tos are:
> 
> The Dark Side of the moon
> Wish you were here
> ...


Yeah! Have you heard the live album "Pulse", also the film theme "More" I like. And there's also Dave Gilmore "Live in Gdansk" which is also good.


----------



## senseitedj

I haven't actually.. I'll go check it out and get back to you


----------



## OctavianH

I wonder when @SonicTrance will show us pictures with the black Odyssey.


----------



## audiargent

OctavianH said:


> I wonder when @SonicTrance will show us pictures with the black Odyssey.



Still pending output transformers, but it's a beauty.... Though I'm biased.
L


----------



## mfgillia

OctavianH said:


> I wonder when @SonicTrance will show us pictures with the black Odyssey.


I want to see this too even though the silver looks pretty awesome too. 

After reading most of the posts in this thread now considering the Odyssey versus A&S BB Rev 2.


----------



## OctavianH

mfgillia said:


> After reading most of the posts in this thread now considering the Odyssey versus A&S BB Rev 2.


Sorry for being ignorant, what is A&S BB Rev 2?


----------



## senseitedj

mfgillia said:


> I want to see this too even though the silver looks pretty awesome too.
> 
> After reading most of the posts in this thread now considering the Odyssey versus A&S BB Rev 2.



A&S BB 2 = Ampsandsounds Big Ben 2?


----------



## mfgillia

senseitedj said:


> A&S BB 2 = Ampsandsounds Big Ben 2?


Yep, exactly. Have you had a chance to listen to one? If so, would love to hear your general impressions.


----------



## mfgillia

OctavianH said:


> Sorry for being ignorant, what is A&S BB Rev 2?


Sorry - I should have spelled it out. As noted above, AmpsandSound Bigger Ben 2, which just had a second revision last November. There hasn't been a lot of reviews on that specific model. However, did see some complaints about the noise floor in other AmpsandSound products and prior versions of the Bigger Ben.


----------



## senseitedj

mfgillia said:


> Yep, exactly. Have you had a chance to listen to one? If so, would love to hear your general impressions.



Have read and watched alot of reviews/impressions of this amp, but sadly A&S has not reached these shores just yet.

Intriguing that they combined a tube rectifier PSU with KT88 tubes.

They also released the 300b version called the red october, but was not as well-received in the most recent CanJam


----------



## SonicTrance

audiargent said:


> Still pending output transformers, but it's a beauty.... Though I'm biased.


I got word from DHL yesterday and estimated delivery is on Monday! So, if nothing spectacular happens, your amp will be ready next week!


----------



## mfgillia

senseitedj said:


> Have read and watched alot of reviews/impressions of this amp, but sadly A&S has not reached these shores just yet.
> 
> Intriguing that they combined a tube rectifier PSU with KT88 tubes.
> 
> They also released the 300b version called the red october, but was not as well-received in the most recent CanJam


Thanks - interesting... By the way, I think that Red October is intended to be the 300b version of the Nautilus - same chassis and weight (68 pounds) and even more expensive coming in at USD $12,000 so well outside my budget. 

I have heard some compare the Nautilus as the bigger brother to the Bigger Ben, which in turn is a step up from the Mogwai.


----------



## audiargent

SonicTrance said:


> I got word from DHL yesterday and estimated delivery is on Monday! So, if nothing spectacular happens, your amp will be ready next week!


Great news!

Can't wait to hear it! Even more excited about the tube rolling options! There are quite some nice big bulb 5u4Gs!


----------



## Maxx134

SonicTrance said:


> I got word from DHL yesterday and estimated delivery is on Monday! So, if nothing spectacular happens, your amp will be ready next week!


One-man-army !
Dunno how he can make so many different units lol. Maybe need a list of versions so I can post beginning thread.
🙂


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> One-man-army !
> Dunno how he can make so many different units lol. Maybe need a list of versions so I can post beginning thread.
> 🙂


Keep up, blink and you've missed it .


----------



## UntilThen

Finally Odyssey is back on the rack. I did miss Yggdrasil and HD800 !


----------



## UntilThen

And Oblivion. Too good !!! What have I been missing?


----------



## UntilThen

Why I haven't been using the EL39 tubes more I don't know because they are one of the best if not the best sounding power tubes in Odyssey. Using it with EL11 now in UL mode with feedback.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Why I haven't been using the EL39 tubes more I don't know because they are one of the best if not the best sounding power tubes in Odyssey. Using it with EL11 now in UL mode with feedback.


You definitely need a grey glass dual triode for this picture.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> You definitely need a grey glass dual triode for this picture.



I could have put in an RCA 6sn7 grey smoke glass but that will be overdoing it with greyness.


----------



## UntilThen

mfgillia said:


> I want to see this too even though the silver looks pretty awesome too.
> 
> After reading most of the posts in this thread now considering the Odyssey versus A&S BB Rev 2.



I'm biased but I can tell you that Odyssey sounds better.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Great news!
> 
> Can't wait to hear it! Even more excited about the tube rolling options! There are quite some nice big bulb 5u4Gs!



So your amp is almost ready ! You'll be impressed that's for sure. When I first heard it, I thought to myself, how's that possible. It sounded better than I had thought possible.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> Why I haven't been using the EL39 tubes more I don't know because they are one of the best if not the best sounding power tubes in Odyssey. Using it with EL11 now in UL mode with feedback.


Can you use the same adapter for the el39 as the 807? I have top cap adapters for the 807, 6bg6, and 6f8g. I also have a few el39 tubes. I don’t really want to buy more adapters for just a pair of tubes so I’m hoping I can use what I’ve got.


----------



## OctavianH (Mar 14, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> Can you use the same adapter for the el39 as the 807? I have top cap adapters for the 807, 6bg6, and 6f8g. I also have a few el39 tubes. I don’t really want to buy more adapters for just a pair of tubes so I’m hoping I can use what I’ve got.


EL39 is octal while 807 is ux5.

Later edit: There is a trick you can make to use EL39 natively on octal sockets wired for KT88. Ask Tomas, the other Eternity has it. (a top cap for anode you connect when you need).


----------



## Isaacc7

OctavianH said:


> EL39 is octal while 807 is ux5.
> 
> Later edit: There is a trick you can make to use EL39 natively on octal sockets wired for KT88. Ask Tomas, the other Eternity has it. (a top cap for anode you connect when you need).


Hmm, wonder if the 6bg6 adapter would work.


----------



## OctavianH (Mar 14, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> Hmm, wonder if the 6bg6 adapter would work.


Take this with a grain of salt, but during my "research" I made myself some tables with pinouts:





The second column is the 6V6 (or KT88) wiring. 6BG6 cannot work since Cathode is pin 3. Or my table is wrong. BUT I guess 12E1 might work as well as EL39 with the trick I mentioned.

Later edit: title of the table is wrong since 807 is no octal.  (also 4654K is not, is an EL39 with EL3N ugly socket if I remember correctly).


----------



## triod750 (Mar 14, 2022)

I guess you have mixed up 4654 and 4654K; see https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_4654k.html Same tube but different pinout.
https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_4654.html


----------



## OctavianH

triod750 said:


> I guess you have mixed up 4654 and 4654K; see https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_4654k.html Same tube but different pinout.
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_4654.html


Yes! You are right.


----------



## triod750

Leftside taught me this last year and I haven't yet forgotten. But give me some time and I probably will...


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Can you use the same adapter for the el39 as the 807? I have top cap adapters for the 807, 6bg6, and 6f8g. I also have a few el39 tubes. I don’t really want to buy more adapters for just a pair of tubes so I’m hoping I can use what I’ve got.



You have your answer from Octa. I have adapters coming out of my ears. I have adapters for EL12 spez, 807, EL39, 12au7, 12AT7, 12ax7. There could have been more but I kept my sanity in check.

807 is already a good sounding tube but EL39 is much better. EL12 spez is another special tube.


----------



## UntilThen

Before the black Odyssey unveiling, I just want to share another picture of this beauty with the Berlin tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

There's something about listening to vinyl with headphone. Denon DP-47F, Avid Pellar phono stage, Odyssey, He1000se - Dire Straits Communique.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Before the black Odyssey unveiling, I just want to share another picture of this beauty with the Berlin tubes.


Beautiful pic!  
It will be another 2-3 weeks delay on the black Odyssey as Sowter sent the wrong transformers, unfortunately.


----------



## Maxx134 (Mar 16, 2022)

OctavianH said:


> Take this with a grain of salt, but during my "research" I made myself some tables with pinouts


Very nice.
When I want to see a tube pin-out, or anything about  AnY tube, I simply  enter the tube number in Google, AND always enter "radiomuseum" after....

It will take you to thier site with all the info and diagram and pinout and description
..... AND most importantly,  all the variants that are similar in pins and/or specs...
You will find model numbers that you didn't even know was a match.
That's exactly how I found my 6dr6 tube was an equivalent for the EL81 output tubes in the Oblivion.
 👍


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Beautiful pic!
> It will be another 2-3 weeks delay on the black Odyssey as Sowter sent the wrong transformers, unfortunately.



What a bummer but then when I was waiting, I was incredibly patient. 😀


----------



## UntilThen

I haven't use the small driver tubes for a while. Odyssey is incredibly versatile. This is the Amperex 12ax7, a very high gain driver. 100 amplification factor. Paired with EL12 spez , dynamics is on another level.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> I haven't use the small driver tubes for a while. Odyssey is incredibly versatile. This is the Amperex 12ax7, a very high gain driver. 100 amplification factor. Paired with EL12 spez , dynamics is on another level.


Is that a Russian 5U4G rectifier? Thinking of getting a pair of those!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Is that a Russian 5U4G rectifier? Thinking of getting a pair of those!



No no no. That’s a Mullard 5u4g made in USA. 😀


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> No no no. That’s a Mullard 5u4g made in USA. 😀


Good Lord, you do love your NOS tubes! I guess rectifiers seem to last a long time so makes sense.

I'm looking at some higher end manufacturers like KR Audio for their KT150 and EML for their 5U4G. Not sure if there are any high quality new production 6SN7 that are as good as NOS....

Anyway, I need to reflect as it's gonna cost me!

For now it will be an all new production Tung-Sol thing!


----------



## OctavianH (Mar 17, 2022)

Never choose new production instead of NOS.

Why NOS tubes are better than new tubes

And an excerpt:



> *Why do NOS tubes sound better than current production? There are various complex reasons, primarily economic in nature. Modern factories are under great pressure to produce tubes as quickly and cheaply as possible, so they compromise the hardness of the vacuum in the envelope. A good NOS tube was vacuum processed for more than an hour (sometimes several hours) before being sealed. Modern tubes are shoved through the production line very quickly, so it’s not unusual to pump them for only half an hour or so. Residual gas in the tube can affect the tube’s operating linearity, and even its reliability. Gas molecules, especially oxygen, can bombard the oxide cathode and shorten its lifetime. A poor vacuum can sometimes cause arc-over between the anode and cathode, as the gas ionizes and conducts a lot of current. This kills the tube and can even destroy the amplifier.*



While I do not strongly believe that vacuum is the main reason, for sure there are a lot of economical reasons. I would always choose a NOS tube instead new production.


----------



## UntilThen

For NOS 6sn7 tubes you should see vintage Bcowen. He has a lot….


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> For NOS 6sn7 tubes you should see vintage Bcowen. He has a lot….


OK, so I'm vintage.  As with tubes, that makes me better.  

Now if I could just find some NOS 300BXLS tubes... 😀


----------



## OctavianH

bcowen said:


> OK, so I'm vintage.  As with tubes, that makes me better.


No, you are a great tube roller. But I am not sure if you roll something else than Foton 6H8C because I've seen you have a full box of it. Other tubes I've not seen yet.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> No, you are a great tube roller. But I am not sure if you roll something else than Foton 6H8C because I've seen you have a full box of it. Other tubes I've not seen yet.



He has NOS GE 😊


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> No, you are a great tube roller. But I am not sure if you roll something else than Foton 6H8C because I've seen you have a full box of it. Other tubes I've not seen yet.


Besides the Fotons, I only have a few others.     And I'm holding onto some GE's as a Christmas gift for @UntilThen.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Besides the Fotons, I only have a few others.     And I'm holding onto some GE's as a Christmas gift for @UntilThen.


Omg you have any nice 6SL7 for me?


----------



## OctavianH

bcowen said:


> Besides the Fotons, I only have a few others.     And I'm holding onto some GE's as a Christmas gift for @UntilThen.


Do you have by chance Philips ECG? I'll pay a fortune for those. Here is one of mine:


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Omg you have any nice 6SL7 for me?


Seems I have a box of those around somewhere.....here they are.  Mostly US brands, and even a few GE's for you.


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> Do you have by chance Philips ECG? I'll pay a fortune for those. Here is one of mine:


Sure do.  One maybe.  But even better, Philips ECG 5814's!  The tube that drove the world to solid state.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Seems I have a box of those around somewhere.....here they are.  Mostly US brands, and even a few GE's for you.



I will give you US $200 for the lot. 😎


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> I will give you US $200 for the lot. 😎


I will raise it to $205


----------



## normie610

Zachik said:


> I will raise it to $205


I’ll go for $210


----------



## triod750 (Mar 17, 2022)

Do you have a Ken-Rad with nickel plates?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I will give you US $200 for the lot. 😎


That will cover the shipping I think.


----------



## Zachik

triod750 said:


> Do you have a Ken-Rad with nickel plates?


The perfect tube for...


----------



## Maxx134

bcowen said:


> ....


Nice! Maybe you don't need all of those.. 😁


----------



## UntilThen

Lazy Sat afternoon chilling with listening to some of my LPs and my 2 Ultrasonic amps with He1000se, HD800 and LCD4. 

Enigma - Love, Sensuality Devotion is a haunting album. I love it.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Besides the Fotons, I only have a few others.     And I'm holding onto some GE's as a Christmas gift for @UntilThen.


You wouldn't be trying to push up prices on your hoard by any chance 😆.


----------



## baronbeehive (Mar 19, 2022)

This is my hoard, or rather what's left of it.





You can just see it at the bottom! I've tried most of the tubes for this amp and for the Little Dot, including the exotic ones and the lesser known, and I always come back to the TS 6SL7's for the LD with RCA 6AS7G's, and Amperex EL84 for the APPJ and Philips 12AX7 or Mazda 12AX7A for the APPJ, except now the Philips has been replaced by the Footscray Brimar which was my last tube rolling expedition on that amp. There's a lovely tone with both Brimar or Mazda, the Mazda has a very nice treble emphasis which makes a change from the heavier Brimar.

I've just got to try those GE's then that will be the lot, finished, done .

I just need a spare set of TS's and possibly some NOS Amperexes. The Amperexes are still a reasonable price so obviously bcowen doesn't have any of these in his collection 🙂. I had several sets in my hoard and sold them all off in a clearout and now I will have to fork out many times the original price for them now. But I still have the original TS's in my LD which I had when I got the LD way back and the tubes are still going strong so there's no rush to replace I think.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> This is my hoard, or rather what's left of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL!  Which Amperex are you talking about?  Don't think they ever made a 6SL7, but I could be wrong.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Which Amperex are you talking about?  Don't think they ever made a 6SL7, but I could be wrong.


No you're right, I meant the EL84 for the APPJ. It was the Tungsols I sold off when they were quite cheap compared to now.


----------



## triod750

It's a no-no to sell tubes. Never sell any tubes. You ain't dead yet and a lot of things can happen. I have yet to meet a person who regrets not selling tubes.
Just sayin...


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Lazy Sat afternoon chilling with listening to some of my LPs and my 2 Ultrasonic amps with He1000se, HD800 and LCD4.
> 
> Enigma - Love, Sensuality Devotion is a haunting album. I love it.


Nice! What about this one:


----------



## Isaacc7

baronbeehive said:


> This is my hoard, or rather what's left of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I need to, uh, neaten up a little lol. Here is my current tube rotation...





The tubes not being used on the main preamp are actually input tubes for the amplifier (not pictured). Right now there is a tall sylvania 6sl7w, tall sylvania 7n7, Raytheon 6f8g, and I think an RCA 6bx7 in the back. The preamp power supply is littered with a variety of tubes for the preamp and amp. 6ar6, 6v6, TSRP 12sn7, 12sx7, a Sylvania 6sl7w brown base, and a pair of RCA 6f6. The preamp itself currently has 4 Sylvania 12j5gt and a set of generic Russian 6l6 somethings for the regulator tubes along with a Russian 5ar4 on the power supply. I also have loads of tubes in the wings. About to put my deposit down on a new amp to make more use of them so won't be selling any of them


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> It's a no-no to sell tubes. Never sell any tubes. You ain't dead yet and a lot of things can happen. I have yet to meet a person who regrets not selling tubes.
> Just sayin...



The tubes I regretted selling are GEC 6AS7, GEC U52, Sylvania 6SN7W metal base (almost new and bought new), Mullard ECC35, Hytron ECC33. There are others I just have forgotten. Tubes were sold off together with GOTL and Studio Six.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Nice! What about this one:



Thanks my kind of music. Listening to this now on Roon.





Isaacc7 said:


> The tubes not being used on the main preamp are actually input tubes for the amplifier (not pictured). Right now there is a tall sylvania 6sl7w, tall sylvania 7n7, Raytheon 6f8g, and I think an RCA 6bx7 in the back. The preamp power supply is littered with a variety of tubes for the preamp and amp. 6ar6, 6v6, TSRP 12sn7, 12sx7, a Sylvania 6sl7w brown base, and a pair of RCA 6f6. The preamp itself currently has 4 Sylvania 12j5gt and a set of generic Russian 6l6 somethings for the regulator tubes along with a Russian 5ar4 on the power supply. I also have loads of tubes in the wings. About to put my deposit down on a new amp to make more use of them so won't be selling any of them



You have a Supratek. That's an Australian creation.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> You can just see it at the bottom! I've tried most of the tubes for this amp and for the Little Dot, including the exotic ones and the lesser known, and I always come back to the TS 6SL7's for the LD with RCA 6AS7G's, and Amperex EL84 for the APPJ and Philips 12AX7 or Mazda 12AX7A for the APPJ, except now the Philips has been replaced by the Footscray Brimar which was my last tube rolling expedition on that amp. There's a lovely tone with both Brimar or Mazda, the Mazda has a very nice treble emphasis which makes a change from the heavier Brimar.
> 
> I've just got to try those GE's then that will be the lot, finished, done .
> 
> I just need a spare set of TS's and possibly some NOS Amperexes. The Amperexes are still a reasonable price so obviously bcowen doesn't have any of these in his collection 🙂. I had several sets in my hoard and sold them all off in a clearout and now I will have to fork out many times the original price for them now. But I still have the original TS's in my LD which I had when I got the LD way back and the tubes are still going strong so there's no rush to replace I think.



Can you post some pictures of TS 6SL7, Philips 12AX7, Mazda 12AX7A and is the Footscray Brimar a 12AU7 or 12AT7? I was going to buy a Footscray but forgot all about it.

I am still using the Amperex 12AX7 after 2 days ! So it must be good.  Also using the Shuguang Treasures KT88-Z with the Amperex, with a Miniwatt GZ34 metal base lurking behind. This combination is worthy of my time. The Siemens EL11 are just for show.


----------



## UntilThen

Quite an old post from someone who loves the Shuguang KT88-Z. I wouldn't say they are the best like the reviewer, especially when compared to my other NOS tubes but they play incredibly well in Odyssey.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=77818.0


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Lazy Sat afternoon chilling with listening to some of my LPs and my 2 Ultrasonic amps with He1000se, HD800 and LCD4.
> 
> Enigma - Love, Sensuality Devotion is a haunting album. I love it.


May I ask where you purchased those bases? 

Thanks!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> May I ask where you purchased those bases?
> 
> Thanks!



What bases? You mean the racks? Those are Gecko racks. Someone sold it to me for $100 for 2 racks. I couldn't believe my ears but sheepishly paid him the money and they have been my best buys ever since. They are as good as new. All I had to do was assemble it, which is like building Lego.


----------



## UntilThen

I have always been curious about how Shuguang KT88-Z vs Psvane KT88-Tii vs GEC KT88 compare. I haven't heard the GEC KT88 nor is it in my possession yet but I agree with this guy's take on the Shuguang and Psvane. I do think the Psvane is better. 

https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/psvane-kt88-tii-vs-shuguang-treasure-kt88-z-vs-original-mullard-kt88/

Will be swapping over to the Psvane next.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> The tubes I regretted selling are GEC 6AS7, GEC U52, Sylvania 6SN7W metal base (almost new and bought new), Mullard ECC35, Hytron ECC33. There are others I just have forgotten. Tubes were sold off together with GOTL and Studio Six.


The only tubes I regret selling are all of the ones I've sold.  😂


----------



## OctavianH

Psvanes are much better than any Shuguang, there is no competition there. Honestly. 
GEC KT88 might be better if you like KT88, but I prefer at any hour 807 or EL34. A matter of preference.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Psvanes are much better than any Shuguang, there is no competition there. Honestly.
> GEC KT88 might be better if you like KT88, but I prefer at any hour 807 or EL34. A matter of preference.



Comparing KT88 and EL34 is like comparing Marilyn Monroe and Audrey Hepburn. I love them both.


----------



## audiargent

audiargent said:


> May I ask where you purchased those bases?
> 
> Thanks!


No. I did not explain myself clearly, apologies.

I meant for the 12AX7 socket adapter .


----------



## OctavianH

audiargent said:


> I meant for the 12AX7 socket adapter .


For any kind of adapters you have a very good source in Europe in our fellow forums member Deyan
He makes a lot of good quality adapters and you can contact him directly via PM. I will also do this because I am preparing for my noval journey.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> No. I did not explain myself clearly, apologies.
> 
> I meant for the 12AX7 socket adapter .



Ah I show you later as I am going for the ride of my life now.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Comparing KT88 and EL34 is like comparing Marilyn Monroe and Audrey Hepburn. I love them both.


Keep in mind there are some kids (in their 20s and 30s) here, who probably never heard of either Marilyn Monroe or Audrey Hepburn...


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Keep in mind there are some kids (in their 20s and 30s) here, who probably never heard of either Marilyn Monroe or Audrey Hepburn...



They are missing out ! These are vintage.


----------



## UntilThen

@audiargent this is the adapter. Match well with the silver Odyssey.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/202979089706?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> @audiargent this is the adapter. Match well with the silver Odyssey.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/202979089706?


Looks even better with tentacles.  😂


----------



## UntilThen

In the years of chasing the 'perfect' sound for myself, I've never felt closer to it than now. Listening to Tangerine Dream 'The Island of the Fay' on vinyl, wide soundstage, prat, dynamics, fast transients, reverb bass and a vivid sound, it's a sensory delight.


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> I need to, uh, neaten up a little lol. Here is my current tube rotation...


Ha, that's what it looked like here before I had my clearout! What are your impressions of the Raytheon 6f8g?


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Thanks my kind of music. Listening to this now on Roon.


No worries, I can count on one hand the electronic music that I actually like and that is one of them. Most of them go on and on without change for hours!


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> In the years of chasing the 'perfect' sound for myself, I've never felt closer to it than now. Listening to Tangerine Dream 'The Island of the Fay' on vinyl, wide soundstage, prat, dynamics, fast transients, reverb bass and a vivid sound, it's a sensory delight.


Seeing that the 1000se, is quite efficient, how does a powerful amp like Odyssey handle it?

I asked Tomas to put gain switches (or rather attenuation) purposefully for that reason.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Can you post some pictures of TS 6SL7, Philips 12AX7, Mazda 12AX7A and is the Footscray Brimar a 12AU7 or 12AT7? I was going to buy a Footscray but forgot all about it.


Here they are:

left to right, mazda (2), Brimar (2), Philips (2), Tungsol (1).



 

 

 





 

 



The mazda has a small O getter, the Brimar has a square getter, the Philips has a large O getter and the Tungsol is the bog standard BGRP.


----------



## audiargent

baronbeehive said:


> Here they are:
> 
> left to right, mazda (2), Brimar (2), Philips (2), Tungsol (1).
> 
> ...


I have the Footscray's I think in my MJ2!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Seeing that the 1000se, is quite efficient, how does a powerful amp like Odyssey handle it?



Odyssey handles He1000se beautifully. Some amps make the He1000se loud and uncomfortable but Odyssey makes it sound big and majestic, using it's power judiciously. It's not cliche to say that Odyssey takes the He1000se to another stratosphere level. 

In my time with He1000se, I've used it with these amps which I've owned:-

Woo Audio Wa22
La Figaro 339i
Violectric v280
Auraulic Taurus Mk2
Burson Soloist 3XP
Sparkos Aries
Elekit TU-8200
Destiny
Oblivion
Odyssey

He1000se sounds great with all of them but none handles it like Odyssey. I'm willing to spend on tubes on Odyssey just to drive the He1000se.

This here are the Amperex 12ax7, Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base and Miniwatt GZ34 metal base combination. Tubes here are about a AUD$1000. No hiss no hum. Just perfectly sounding tubes. At times I felt spoilt rotten with such tone.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Here they are:
> 
> left to right, mazda (2), Brimar (2), Philips (2), Tungsol (1).



Thanks for the photos. First time I've seen the Tung Sol miniature in black glass round plates. You've a fine collection there.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Thanks for the photos. First time I've seen the Tung Sol miniature in black glass round plates. You've a fine collection there.


Thanks! The Tungsol pic is misleading it is not a miniature its a 6SL7, sorry camera malfunction .

If you wanted to get any of those tubes I'm pretty sure they're all 1950's, so the older the better. For example the later Philips had a smaller O getter.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Thanks! The Tungsol pic is misleading it is not a miniature its a 6SL7, sorry camera malfunction .
> 
> If you wanted to get any of those tubes I'm pretty sure they're all 1950's, so the older the better. For example the later Philips had a smaller O getter.



Is the TungSol 6SL7 black base or metal base? Looks like metal base in the picture. Yup I would like one of those.

I know the older the better but the older it is, it's more expensive.  One of the rare things in life.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Is the TungSol 6SL7 black base or metal base? Looks like metal base in the picture. Yup I would like one of those.
> 
> I know the older the better but the older it is, it's more expensive.  One of the rare things in life.


Yes, like a good wine, the dusty ones in  your cellar 🤪.

The TS is black base, you can get brown base the TS6SU7GTY. I wouldn't go for them, they're made to higher tolerances, and therefore even higher prices, but I've tried them and they sound no different.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> The TS is black base, you can get brown base the TS6SU7GTY. I wouldn't go for them, they're made to higher tolerances, and therefore even higher prices, but I've tried them and they sound no different.



I have the TungSol 6SU7GTY brown base. So they sound the same? I won't bother with the black base black glass then. Mine is the clear glass.


----------



## UntilThen

I wanted these though. Where can you find these?


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I have the TungSol 6SU7GTY brown base. So they sound the same? I won't bother with the black base black glass then. Mine is the clear glass.


Yep. I have a TS silver glass as well and that also sounds the same.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I wanted these though. Where can you find these?


That pic is the closest I will ever get to one of those 😭.


----------



## triod750 (Mar 20, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> I wanted these though. Where can you find these?


I have one of these and one Sylvania JAN 7N7 of the same vintage. They are the same tube with different socket/pinout but they sound the same. I got it in a tube lot with other to me useful tubes that I paid 10 EUR for. The tube was NOS/NIB. Bad luck can come to us all! 
(It was the 7N7 that came in the lot. Acceptance date 9-27-43).


----------



## slumberman

I am selling this Citadel if anyone is interested. Located in Portugal. 



SonicTrance said:


> Here's a Citadel finished! This one has all regular add-ons there is!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Isaacc7

baronbeehive said:


> Ha, that's what it looked like here before I had my clearout! What are your impressions of the Raytheon 6f8g?


Here's the thing, I can't always nail down a consistent sound signature to a specific tube. Sometimes I think I get an idea of what a tube does only to be surprised at the result when I put it in. I just have too many moving parts. When I use them in my preamp, the Raytheon tends to have solid, open sound. When I use it as the input tube in my amp it sounds like that, well, sometimes. 

For example, if I use it as the input tube with 6v6 outputs I get the open, solid sound I mentioned earlier. But if I use it with 807 outputs the sound mushes up and sounds grey or something. This amp has confounded me as far as how tubes' sounds combine.


----------



## triod750

It's all down to synergy. I share your experience, with a lot of tubes. 'Known' tubes can surprise you, positively or negatively, in another combination. I guess it's about finding a matching frequency response...


----------



## jonathan c

triod750 said:


> ‘Known' tubes can surprise you, positively or negatively, in another combination.


N.B.: with ECG / GE tubes, the only surprise is the depth of dreck…by themselves…😱🤢…


----------



## UntilThen

What happens when you combine Philips Miniwatt EL11 with Siemens EL11? Nothing, they are essentially the same tube, same construction and same shape. I have 4 pairs of perfect sounding EL11. That should last me a life time.

On the left is the Philips Miniwatt EL11 and on the right is the Siemens EL11.


----------



## audiargent (Mar 21, 2022)

Well, I had a good evening yesterday....

I discovered a new album....





Sounded very good with the closed back SASH Trés and solid pads - those headphones sometimes surprise me!

I may be getting a pure silver cable for them, something to try out with the black Odyssey! 

Meanwhile...





Mjolnir 2 will do!

Thinking to move this set-up to the bedroom... I need to find a good DAC.

Those Audio-GD ones are not cheap!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Mjolnir 2 will do!



Nice picture of the tubes ! I can rest easy now that you will take some great pictures of the black Odyssey. You know a colour combination of black and deep orange would be stunning. 

You do realise that Schiit will stop producing the Mjolnir 2? A nice dac to partner it would be Yggdrasil.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Nice picture of the tubes ! I can rest easy now that you will take some great pictures of the black Odyssey. You know a colour combination of black and deep orange would be stunning.
> 
> You do realise that Schiit will stop producing the Mjolnir 2? A nice dac to partner it would be Yggdrasil.


They already have. When I decided to purchase it they had just stopped in April.

I was heartbroken!!

Then I managed to find it on close out. It's basically new, got it in August. I love it with these tubes.

I have a Gungnir MB Unison to pair.

Here it is with my Trés





...and HE-6SE V2


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> Here's the thing, I can't always nail down a consistent sound signature to a specific tube. Sometimes I think I get an idea of what a tube does only to be surprised at the result when I put it in. I just have too many moving parts. When I use them in my preamp, the Raytheon tends to have solid, open sound. When I use it as the input tube in my amp it sounds like that, well, sometimes.
> 
> For example, if I use it as the input tube with 6v6 outputs I get the open, solid sound I mentioned earlier. But if I use it with 807 outputs the sound mushes up and sounds grey or something. This amp has confounded me as far as how tubes' sounds combine.


No worries, I had heard it was good, just wondered if anyone else could confirm!


----------



## Xavilaw (Mar 21, 2022)

Hi,

I've been lurking this thread for over a month, silent in my corner just trying to learn all i can about these amazing amps. I wondering if the Citadel can drive 4 or 6 Ohm speakers. I'm assuming yes, but would like to know as i like to have broad options with an amp. In the mean while i would be paring it to the Focal Clear OG and a Zmf Verite Closed and from all that I have read here it should sound great.
Thanks in advanced!


----------



## SonicTrance

Xavilaw said:


> I wondering if the Citadel can drive 4 or 6 Ohm speakers


It can but not to any extreme levels. Fill a normal sized room with music isn't an issue though.


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> It can but not to any extreme levels. Fill a *normal* sized room with music isn't an issue though.


Using the word ‘normal’ around this crowd is not normal.


----------



## Xavilaw

SonicTrance said:


> It can but not to any extreme levels. Fill a normal sized room with music isn't an issue though.


That's good cause I don't do extreme anymore. Gotta keep my ears in good shape!! 
The normal I guess I only have one way to find out 😉
Thanks for the swift reply!


----------



## UntilThen

It will play ok at normal level. Here I have the Oblivion driving my Axis Voicebox S - 83dB 5ohms very inefficient speakers and it was ok. Citadel is a bit more powerful than Oblivion.


----------



## UntilThen

Good music can be affordable.  Oblivion is driving these Boston VR2 now.


----------



## Isaacc7

baronbeehive said:


> No worries, I had heard it was good, just wondered if anyone else could confirm!


I do think it is a good tube. I might have bought 6 of them once I heard what it could do in my system. A smaller dealer I like had a good price on them.


----------



## UntilThen

After a week of Amperex 12ax7 (100mu), it's time to explore the 12AT7 (60mu). 

The Amperex 12ax7 has nuclear capability in Odyssey. Well where does that leave the lower gain 12at7? I have here 3 different types of 12at7. See this article on all the different types. https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-12at7-tube/

First to go into the amp is the Mullard PQ 6201. PQ I think means premium quality. Kevin Deal loves it. Sells like hot cakes. Now this is pretty amazing sound. So good it took my breath away. Gold pins adds to it's attractiveness. A pair cost me $200.

The other 2 are Siemens ECC81 and Philips Miniwatt ECC81. They will be assessed next. Now the 12at7 may be lower mu than the mighty 12ax7 but it is pretty strong ! Also 12at7 are very quiet which is a big plus.

This is a picture of my 12at7s.


As with all tube type, there is the holy grail of 12at7. It's the GEC A2900. This will cost you more than your wedding ring.... and naturally I don't have it.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> After a week of Amperex 12ax7 (100mu), it's time to explore the 12AT7 (60mu).
> 
> The Amperex 12ax7 has nuclear capability in Odyssey. Well where does that leave the lower gain 12at7? I have here 3 different types of 12at7. See this article on all the different types. https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-12at7-tube/
> 
> ...


Try the Brimar CV455 KB/FB (Footscray) and the RFT ECC81 (foil getter).


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> As with all tube type, there is the holy grail of 12at7. It's the GEC A2900. This will cost you more than your wedding ring.... and naturally I don't have it.


Well, depends on your wedding ring. Check here.


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Try the Brimar CV455 KB/FB (Footscray) and the RFT ECC81 (foil getter).



Ah the Footscray. All this while I thought it's a 12au7 but it's a 12at7 equivalent. It will have to wait. Trying to get a GEC A2900.



OctavianH said:


> Well, depends on your wedding ring. Check here.



Thanks Octa. I've written to .... let's see.


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Try the Brimar CV455 KB/FB (Footscray) and the RFT ECC81 (foil getter).



Is this the RFT ECC81? https://www.ebay.com/itm/272601501162?hash=item3f7850cdea:g:p0QAAOSwYaNfwQw-

and where is the link to buy the Footscray CV455 again?

Thanks


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> After a week of Amperex 12ax7 (100mu), it's time to explore the 12AT7 (60mu).
> 
> The Amperex 12ax7 has nuclear capability in Odyssey. Well where does that leave the lower gain 12at7? I have here 3 different types of 12at7. See this article on all the different types. https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-12at7-tube/
> 
> ...


I'll second @jonathan c on the Brimar CV455.  And I can heartily second the foil getter RFT in ECC82 clothing (but I don't have the ECC81).  With either, just be sure to get the foil getter, as the round or halo getters were of later manufacture and aren't even on the same planet sonically.

To each his own with tubes of course, but I found the A2900 to be a rather gigantic disappointment. Pretty anemic in the bass and lacking meat on the bones in the midrange.  I paid big bucks for a pair and fortunately didn't lose any money selling them off in very short order.  Personally I'd rather have either the Footscray Brimar or the RFT even if the price was the same.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Is this the RFT ECC81? https://www.ebay.com/itm/272601501162?hash=item3f7850cdea:g:p0QAAOSwYaNfwQw-


No.  Round getter. 


UntilThen said:


> and where is the link to buy the Footscray CV455 again?



I don't see any CV455's listed at Pulse right now.  But these are awesome too:

https://pulsetubestore.com/products...4-12at7-factory-tested-plug-play-ready-to-use

They also have a sqaure getter version of the CV4033 for more money, but I haven't tried that to see if it's worth the extra $$ over the round getter.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> To each his own with tubes of course, but I found the A2900 to be a rather gigantic disappointment. Pretty anemic in the bass and lacking meat on the bones in the midrange. I paid big bucks for a pair and fortunately didn't lose any money selling them off in very short order. Personally I'd rather have either the Footscray Brimar or the RFT even if the price was the same.



Too late. I'm picking up a GEC A2900 to pair with GEC KT88. If it's no good I'll sell it to you !


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I don't see any CV455's listed at Pulse right now. But these are awesome too:
> 
> https://pulsetubestore.com/products...4-12at7-factory-tested-plug-play-ready-to-use



So this is good? Damm I have to buy Footscray too.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Too late. I'm picking up a GEC A2900 to pair with GEC KT88. If it's no good I'll sell it to you !


I’ll give you $100 for it.  AUD.


----------



## jonathan c

To @UntilThen, here is the Brimar CV455 at Langrex:


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> here is the Brimar CV455 at Langrex:



Is this the Footscray? I'm going nuts with buying tubes. Getting GEC A2900, KT88 and Miniwatt EL34 Double D getters brown base.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 22, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Is this the Footscray? I'm going nuts with buying tubes. Getting GEC A2900, KT88 and Miniwatt EL34 Double D getters brown base.


That is it! (KB/FB is the Footscray plant identifier). Triple mica, square getter.


----------



## leftside (Mar 22, 2022)

I see there is talk of one of my favorite tubes - the GEC A2900/CV6091. GEC also made the B309. In regards to the A2900, GEC made 2 very different versions. There is the earlier triple mica, black welded plates, with D getter. These are the ones to get! I thought they were pricey (especially for 12AT7 equivalents) 5 years ago. I haven't checked prices since, but I doubt they've gone down.

There must be hundreds of different 12AT7's and variations. I stopped buying when I hit two drawers full 

Edit: just going through my notes on GEC tubes. I was in conversation with a very knowledgeable person about 5 years ago (I blame him for most of my tube buying back then). He told me the black plates in the early 1950's A2900 were made with the same material as the KT88 from the same era. I took a close look with a magnifier, and indeed they do appear to be the same. All GEC tubes from this era are spectacular.

He also told me that Mullard before Philips purchased them (so around 1956?) that the same plate material was also used by Mullard and Brimar. Hence why a Mullard 1956 and earlier will sell for a lot more than 1957 or later Mullard 12AX7. It’s partly why the early UK made tubes with the black plates are so sought after.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> In regards to the A2900, GEC made 2 very different versions. There is the earlier triple mica, black welded plates, with D getter. These are the ones to get!



The triple mica A2900 will cost your 2 golden eggs, if you can find them NOS. So I got the 2 mica version from Tom.


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> The triple mica A2900 will cost your 2 golden eggs, if you can find them NOS. So I got the 2 mica version from Tom.


I've got a few - some with GEC boxes. Will have to test them again and see if they are NOS. I remember Martin Billington had a couple and me asking him to send close up pictures so I could see if they were triple mica/D getter or not.


----------



## UntilThen

This guy seems to think that the double mica are very good.
http://www.audiocognoscenti.com/blo...alske-e81cc-triple-mica-black-plates-a-review


----------



## leftside

Here are some nice 12AX7  I think these are from the first year they were made. Extremely rare to find singles, let alone a date code matched pair. These will probably sell for over 1000 GBP:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384753415567


----------



## leftside

I was just going through the rest of Dan's tubes. Where on earth did he get all those super rare tubes from?! Here's an interesting 12AT7. "Supplied to Marconi by Mullard", but actually made by Philips if you take a look at the codes on the second photo!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384753415567


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Here are some nice 12AX7  I think these are from the first year they were made. Extremely rare to find singles, let alone a date code matched pair. These will probably sell for over 1000 GBP:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384753415567



520 pounds. Pass. I'll leave it for Bcowen. Buying the GEC KT88 and Miniwatt EL34 double D getters brown base is already making my knees weak. Ah also buying the GEC A2900 and something call Footscray !


----------



## leftside

UntilThen said:


> 520 pounds. Pass. I'll leave it for Bcowen. Buying the GEC KT88 and Miniwatt EL34 double D getters brown base is already making my knees weak. Ah also buying the GEC A2900 and something call Footscray !


Two great pairs of power tubes there. Been running the same set of GEC KT88's in my main amps for 3 years now. Haven't even thought of swapping them out for other tubes. Tested them the other day, and they are still at 80% - 85%. Admittedly I don't use them every day.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Two great pairs of power tubes there. Been running the same set of GEC KT88's in my main amps for 3 years now. Haven't even thought of swapping them out for other tubes. Tested them the other day, and they are still at 80% - 85%. Admittedly I don't use them every day.



I know. I have to give up my Burson Soloist 3xp with the Super Charger for them. Both pairs are brand new. Guess I will just use it. Life's too short not to use them.


----------



## LoryWiv

leftside said:


> Two great pairs of power tubes there. Been running the same set of GEC KT88's in my main amps for 3 years now. Haven't even thought of swapping them out for other tubes. Tested them the other day, and they are still at 80% - 85%. Admittedly I don't use them every day.


I often return to GEC KT88's as powers in Elise, just to remind myself of what "reference" sounds like. They have no weaknesses.


----------



## OctavianH

I am also curious about other's experience with tube lifespan. I had a few problematic pieces which had problems in the first hundreds of hours, but others worked for thousands and I do not feel they are aging. Maybe I am lucky but everytime I bought a spare part, I sold it or just kept it in the box because the first pair worked fine. Anyway, not complaining.


----------



## UntilThen

The only power tube that gave me problem is one of the pair of EL39. The top cap keeps coming off even though I super glue it. Once it's heated up, the cap starts to lift - which is dangerous. I could just buy another but I have so many good power tubes and I'll be getting the last 2 pairs.


----------



## OctavianH

We all know there are no last pairs. I buy the last pair since 2018. Then I buy an amp to use a part of my collection and then I start discovering others and buy again. It ends only when we want to end and we say stop. Or when we stop browsing these forums. I guess the real truth is that we do not really want to end it, we like it. 

PS. I try to avoind buying A2900 but you are not helping me. Until now I resist.


----------



## UntilThen

When I put in the A2900 and the heavens opens, I'll let you know.  Nope after the 2 power tubes I'll stop with power tubes and then look for drivers.  Odyssey churns up amazing tunes so it's worth getting some nice tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright got another NOS tfk ecc801s which is the best ecc81 on the planet. I thought that the A2900 is the best. Which planet are we talking about?


----------



## Zachik

LoryWiv said:


> I often return to GEC KT88's as powers in Elise, just to remind myself of what "reference" sounds like. *They have no weaknesses.*


Price! That is their weakness!!


----------



## leftside

leftside said:


> Here are some nice 12AX7  I think these are from the first year they were made. Extremely rare to find singles, let alone a date code matched pair. These will probably sell for over 1000 GBP:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384753415567


Crikey. Already gone way over what I expected.


----------



## leftside

Be very careful when purchasing the little tfk tubes: http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/index.html


----------



## triod750

leftside said:


> Crikey. Already gone way over what I expected.


Pity he has only one pair...


----------



## leftside

triod750 said:


> Pity he has only one pair...


He’s got 2 pairs mate, so you should be good.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Crikey. Already gone way over what I expected.



What in heavens is this tube? Already 1340 pounds.


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> Be very careful when purchasing the little tfk tubes: http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/index.html



I've been lucky in my tube journey, meeting nice people and genuine sellers. Tom is selling me the tfk ecc801s. Send me some nice pics and also tested it in his amp. It's NOS and letterings are still perfect. Thanks to Octa for pointing him out. I'd recommend yous all to buy from him. Good price !


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> I know. I have to give up my Burson Soloist 3xp with the Super Charger for them. Both pairs are brand new. Guess I will just use it. Life's too short not to use them.


And I am contemplating buying a JJ set of KT66, 5U4GB and 6SN7 hahah.

I want them as a baseline and to see how good the amp can be, even with everyday tubes.

The expensive tube buying will be shifted to later.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> And I am contemplating buying a JJ set of KT66, 5U4GB and 6SN7 hahah.
> 
> I want them as a baseline and to see how good the amp can be, even with everyday tubes.
> 
> The expensive tube buying will be shifted to later.



It's alright we have to start somewhere but you're going down some mega gigantic rabbit hole because Odyssey is worth it.

This is my Telefunken ECC801s, picture curtesy of Tom.


----------



## triod750

leftside said:


> He’s got 2 pairs mate, so you should be good.


Very good since I need two pairs!


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> I've been lucky in my tube journey, meeting nice people and genuine sellers. *Tom* is selling me the tfk ecc801s. Send me some nice pics and also tested it in his amp. It's NOS and letterings are still perfect. Thanks to Octa for pointing him out. I'd recommend yous all to buy from him. Good price !


Apologies if I missed the initial reference but who is this *Tom*...sounds like a good guy to inquire about tubes from and buy from.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Well, depends on your wedding ring. Check here.



Lory, see Octa’s link. That’s Tom.


----------



## bcowen

triod750 said:


> Pity he has only one pair...


It's a pity *I* don't have a pair, 'cause I'd be selling them right now for that kind of money.


----------



## triod750

bcowen said:


> It's a pity *I* don't have a pair, 'cause I'd be selling them right now for that kind of money.


You have a pair of kidneys, don't you?


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Lory, see Octa’s link. That’s Tom.


Thank you very much, Matt.


----------



## OctavianH

Guys, you bought all A2900 from Tom.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Guys, you bought all A2900 from Tom.



I didn't. I bought only one. Did you buy the rest Bcowen?


----------



## UntilThen

This is my jewel of the Nile.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I didn't. I bought only one. Did you buy the rest Bcowen?


Not me.  I used the money to pay cash for a new car and had enough left over for dinner.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Not me.  I used the money to pay cash for a new car and had enough left over for dinner.



I will sell the car and dinner to buy these birthday presents. Tubes are serious business these days.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I will sell the car and dinner to buy these birthday presents. Tubes are serious business these days.


Oh, I'd definitely keep driving the old car and forego dinner for the KT-88's!  The Mullards?  I'll just say that I'd rather have GEC KT-77's instead.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Oh, I'd definitely keep driving the old car and forego dinner for the KT-88's!  The Mullards?  I'll just say that I'd rather have GEC KT-77's instead.



I can only afford these KT77 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/131846545294


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I can only afford these KT77
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/131846545294


In comparison, those are like winning the "most congenial" award in a beauty contest.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> In comparison, those are like winning the "most congenial" award in a beauty contest.


…Or when a real knock-out says “let’s just be friends”…😒…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Not me.  I used the money to pay cash** for a new car and had enough left over for dinner drive-through BBQ!


** required by the auto sheister…

FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## bcowen (Mar 24, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> ** required by the auto sheister…
> 
> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


Oh, no no no!  Blasphemy!  BBQ can _only_ be properly enjoyed in the dining area sitting at a worn wooden table covered with a checkered vinyl tablecloth while seated in a stained wooden chair that wobbles and rocks on the linoleum tile floor.  Diabetes-inducing Sweet Tea in a once-translucent plastic cup that is now opaque, with a jar of Texas Pete next to the napkin holder that _always_ has only one napkin left (which you really need for wiping off the semi-clean, semi-metal fork that is bent back at a 45 degree angle).  Anything less is just plain un-North Carolinian.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Oh, no no no!  Blasphemy!  BBQ can _only_ be properly enjoyed in the dining area sitting at a worn wooden table covered with a checkered vinyl tablecloth while seated in a stained wooden chair that wobbles and rocks on the linoleum tile floor.  Diabetes-inducing Sweet Tea in a once-translucent plastic cup that is now opaque, with a jar of Texas Pete next to the napkin holder that _always_ has only one napkin left (which you really need for wiping off the semi-clean, semi-metal fork that is bent back at a 45 degree angle).  Anything less is just plain un-North Carolinian.


I get it NOW! 😂…[ps, will @Ripper2860 claim the universe with the mention of ‘Texas Pete’?]…😆


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Oh, no no no!  Blasphemy!  BBQ can _only_ be properly enjoyed in the dining area sitting at a worn wooden table covered with a checkered vinyl tablecloth while seated in a stained wooden chair that wobbles and rocks on the linoleum tile floor.  Diabetes-inducing Sweet Tea in a once-translucent plastic cup that is now opaque, with a jar of Texas Pete next to the napkin holder that _always_ has only one napkin left (which you really need for wiping off the semi-clean, semi-metal fork that is bent back at a 45 degree angle).  Anything less is just plain un-North Carolinian.



This happens with excess wrong tube rolling. Delusion. Roll the right tubes !


----------



## Ripper2860

jonathan c said:


> I get it NOW! 😂…[ps, will @Ripper2860 claim the universe with the mention of ‘Texas Pete’?]…😆


I prefer Cholula.


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> This happens with excess wrong tube rolling. Delusion. Roll the right tubes !



Need Preparation for new tubes:





Read more here..


----------



## UntilThen

I did participate in the survey and told them I wanted GEC KT88 and Sittard EL34 equivalents from WE. Though how the WE versions of these sound is another question.  

That said a WE 300b in Telemarchus would be ideal.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> I will sell the car and dinner to buy these birthday presents. Tubes are serious business these days.


Ah, these are your last 2 pairs.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Ah, these are your last 2 pairs.



I sure hope so.... let me see what I have bought from this supplier so far...

Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 double O getter black base
GEC KT66
Radiotron 807
Tung Sol 6550 1960s
Mullard EL34 metal base
GEC KT88
Mullard EL34 double D getters brown base

That's enough and I never heard of GEC KT77.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> I sure hope so.... let me see what I have bought from this supplier so far...
> 
> Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 double O getter black base
> GEC KT66
> ...


Let's see what your supplier bought with YOUR money...


----------



## jonathan c

Zachik said:


> Let's see what your supplier bought with YOUR money...


Meanwhile, this is what I get for my Philips ECG E88CC tubes…


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Let's see what your supplier bought with YOUR money...



For the love of NOS tubes.  All apart from the low hours Tung Sol 6550 are brand new and I got them for less than used equivalents on eBay. However that does add up to a tidy sum. The total cost of those are about half of Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Meanwhile, this is what I get for my Philips ECG E88CC tubes…



That will turn out beautiful after restoration.


----------



## UntilThen

Destiny still lives. There's something about 300b. It has presence and is voluptuous. Is there a better way to listen to vocals? In this department, it's better than all the guitar amp tubes.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> That will turn out beautiful after restoration.


Re-solder the pins?


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Re-solder the pins?



That will work but be careful of the assistant.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Meanwhile, this is what I get for my Philips ECG E88CC tubes…


Man, you screwed that poor supplier_ big_ time. I rarely feel sorry for tube vendors, but in this case I might start a Go Fund Me from associated guilt.


----------



## baronbeehive

Ha, you go away for 5 minutes and look what happens, a feeding frenzy like no other 🙂.


----------



## baronbeehive

Someone's getting very rich out of all this tube trading, and it isn't me.. I have a feeling it might be UntilThen 😁.


----------



## baronbeehive

@jonathan c thanks for the link for the Footscray Brimar, I looked recently and couldn't see any left and panicked, must have looked in the wrong place .


----------



## baronbeehive

Re: life of tubes. I have a tube in my amp that I have been using since I got the amp, must be over 10 years ago at least. I think the tube is down on emissions but is still working and sounding good. So 10 years at say one hour/day works out at around 3650 hours. I think the tube was used when I bought it. Looks like I needn't worry about replacing tubes frankly.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Someone's getting very rich out of all this tube trading, and it isn't me.. I have a feeling it might be UntilThen 😁.



I ain't trading. I'm just buying. No selling.   7 months after Odyssey I'm finally getting the GEC KT88. A tube that Odyssey is biased for. Along the way I got side tracked and got the Soloist. Well the ss is giving way for the tube. Fact is the Soloist is actually a pretty good sounding amp but no where near the euphony that Odyssey exhibit.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Looks like I needn't worry about replacing tubes frankly.



Agree. Those tubes will last forever especially when you have a few tube amps to rotate. The pair of Tung Sol 5998 that I bought new 5 years ago still look new.


----------



## UntilThen

No new amp Tomas ..... yet?


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> No new amp Tomas ..... yet?


Not yet 
Still waiting on transformers for the Odyssey. I'm working on a Oblivion in the meantime which is almost ready though 👍


----------



## BzzzzzT (Apr 3, 2022)

One year later and I'm still in love with my Citadel! Tomas is probably sick of me saying how much I like it. I'm so glad a bought it!

The use of the grid drivers and the gyrator loaded anodes to stabilize the B +\- and driving the OT with a low impedance source, really make this amp special, as well as the execution! Tomas is a super smart guy and great builder! This is still my favorite amp and I play the hell out of it. I'll never part with it and it's better than anything I would ever build. I love electronic music and the the bass is tight, controlled and powerful; it is even better than my other solid state amp I use when working. It can slap the driver on my cans so hard, it would make the Diana Krall crowd blush, yet still have the resolution and timbre to make instruments sound amazing.

Thanks again Tomas!


----------



## UntilThen

BzzzzzT said:


> One year later and I'm still in love with my Citadel! Tomas is probably sick of me saying how much I like it. I'm so glad a bought it!
> 
> The use of the grid drivers and the gyrator loaded anodes to stabilize the B +\- and driving the OT with a low impedance source, really make this amp special, as well as the execution! Tomas is a super smart guy and great builder! This is still my favorite amp and I play the hell out of it. I'll never part with it and it's better than anything I would ever build. I love electronic music and the the bass is tight, controlled and powerful; it is even better than my other solid state amp I use when working. It can slap the driver on my cans so hard, it would make the Diana Krall crowd blush, yet still have the resolution and timbre to make instruments sound amazing.
> 
> Thanks again Tomas!



Glad you came back and gave an update. I concur about Tomas's amps. 

But how does it compare to the 2 amps by the side?


----------



## Isaacc7

I have put down my deposit and am now in the queue for October I think. Looking forward to my amp, I'm hoping it's the last push pull one I ever own.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> I have put down my deposit and am now in the queue for October I think. Looking forward to my amp, I'm hoping it's the last push pull one I ever own.



A push pull from Tomas? Can you provide a bit more details about the amp you're getting?


----------



## BzzzzzT (Apr 3, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Glad you came back and gave an update. I concur about Tomas's amps.
> 
> But how does it compare to the 2 amps by the side?


The other two amps are amps I built a while ago and I don't think they serve as a good comparison.

I am an amateur so I don't think a comparison is really fair to make. The big one with the 807's is a traditional push-pull amp. I used Audyn copper max for the coupling caps. It was primarily a speaker amp. I have a speaker/headphone switch that feeds into a voltage divider for headphones. I really should just wire it for XLR with no divider as now I just use planar cans that can take lots of juice. I conservatively biased the amp to put out around 26 watts into 8 ohms. It sound is liquid and very powerful. It's got that lovely old toob bloom with a big sound-stage. It's kinda noisy for sensitive headphones. But that's also the nature of tubes. My layout could probably be better to reduce noise. I wish more amps were built with an ultralinear pp circuit. I like their strong authoritative sound. SET is all the rage and sadly there are not many  push pull or ultralinear amps out there.

The other amp is my 1920's period amp. Build from parts of that era. It's not for headphones. I did not wire the transformers. Those old scrapped tube radio transformers scare me! I did put a few modern caps in. It's push-pull. A 127 blue glass detector for input and two type 71-a in push pull giving a little over a watt. It was mainly an instrument amplifier for something like a theramin or experimental stuff. I love listening to old mono recordings on it. They sound much more coherent. It's able to drive my 90db Yamaha NS-1000's well. Its not for headphones and just exists for fun.

The Citadel/Oblivion is more detailed due to the loads being stabilized and put out MUCH less heat. I live in the desert and this is a big deal!


----------



## UntilThen

BzzzzzT said:


> It's able to drive my 90db Yamaha NS-1000



Been wanting this for a while. 

How about this?  
https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/537223-fs-altec-model-15-speakers/


----------



## BzzzzzT

UntilThen said:


> Been wanting this for a while.
> 
> How about this?
> https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/537223-fs-altec-model-15-speakers/


Those look really nice! That type of speaker LOVES tubes. I used to have an old pair of JBL's. Those types of speakers give a powerful natural sound. Just make sure you have a decent enough size room so you don't overload it and have distance from the horns. Bass is amazing with "15 woffers. You can feel it in a visceral way. It's not the same as an 8" - 12" driver.


----------



## UntilThen

BzzzzzT said:


> Those look really nice! That type of speaker LOVES tubes. I used to have an old pair of JBL's. Those types of speakers give a powerful natural sound. Just make sure you have a decent enough size room so you don't overload it and have distance from the horns. Bass is amazing with "15 woffers. You can feel it in a visceral way. It's not the same as an 8" - 12" driver.



I know but the illogical in me wants to buy a pair of GEC KT88 and a pair Mullard EL34 double D getters brown base instead of the Altec and they cost the same price !


----------



## BzzzzzT

UntilThen said:


> I know but the illogical in me wants to buy a pair of GEC KT88 and a pair Mullard EL34 double D getters brown base instead of the Altec and they cost the same price !


While I have never heard these legendary tubes and I have many tubes. I would 100% get the Altec monitors. Definitely! They have the mojo.

BTW. The Black Treasure KT88-Z tubes are really nice out of all the power tubes I have heard. I also like the clarity of the military Sylvania JAN 6l6WGB tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

BzzzzzT said:


> While I have never heard these legendary tubes and I have many tubes. I would 100% get the Altec monitors. Definitely! They have the mojo.
> 
> BTW. The Black Treasure KT88-Z tubes are really nice out of all the power tubes I have heard. I also like the clarity of the military Sylvania JAN 6l6WGB tubes.



I have the Shuguang Black Treasure KT88-Z and Psvane KT88 Tii but I need the GEC KT88 to complete it.


----------



## BzzzzzT (Apr 3, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> I have the Shuguang Black Treasure KT88-Z and Psvane KT88 Tii but I need the GEC KT88 to complete it.


I can understand the love of those tubes. They are very nice! I have some GEC military/ industrial tubes and Mullards for my Citadel.

Once your hear those Altec monitors your hair will stand up. If you have never heard a speaker like this you will be surprised at their sheer presence. It's a presence that many modern speakers lack. Those old Altec drivers are also amazing. Just google them and look how well they are made with their awesome alnico magnets. 1 watt will drive them crazy loud. Any tube will make them sound amazing. They are seriously good speakers and a good choice. I would definitely put a pair in my home. I miss my old JBL style monitors of that era.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> A push pull from Tomas? Can you provide a bit more details about the amp you're getting?


It will be a fully balanced design so XLR in and one twin triode driver for each pair of output tubes. This is going to be my dream push pull amp. I’ve sprung for transformers from Monolithic Magnetics and Yamamoto sockets. It will be a tube roller’s dream! Can use 6v or 12v tubes for input and output. The input tubes will be wired for 6sn7 but are able to use anything up to a 6bx7   That will allow me to use not only my large selection of 12sn7 tubes but also the cv1102 tubes I love so much. I’ve been told that adjustments won’t be necessary for the input stage.  The output stage will have manual biasing as well as a variable b+ supply so that I can use anything from 6f6 up through el38 in either triode or ultra linear. Think it will top out around 30 watts. 

I only listen via speakers but I will have a headphone output put on the amp just for completeness sake. Think it will be able to drive just about any set of headphones I ever want to try. I know it’s weird to talk about a speaker amp here on head-fi but this place has a lot of good tube info and it’s through these posts I found out about Ultrasonic Studios! 

Here’s a list of the input tubes I own and will want to use on the new amp: 2c50, 6bx7, cv1102, 6/12sn7, 6/12sl7, 6f8g, 6c8g, 12sx7, 6/12j5
Output tubes I own and plan on using: 6f6, 6v6, 12v6, 6aq5, 6ez5, 807, 5933, 6ar6, el38, e3375, 6gb6, 12av5, and new kt66, 7185a.

With that many combos I can probably dial in about any sound I want lol. I already do a lot of mixing and matching with my SEP amp and I love the flexibility!


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks @Isaacc7 for the run down of your amp. This might be the first push pull from Tomas on this thread. It will be ideal to drive speakers.

Makes sense to have an amp built utilizing the tubes you already have collected over the years.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> Thanks @Isaacc7 for the run down of your amp. This might be the first push pull from Tomas on this thread. It will be ideal to drive speakers.
> 
> Makes sense to have an amp built utilizing the tubes you already have collected over the years.


And I might have some more to try once I get the amp because why not? lol. I would like to try GU50 as well. Might also try 2c51 for the input as well. I keep telling myself that I have enough tubes to last a lifetime but... The lure of another sound can be too hard to resist!


----------



## UntilThen

BzzzzzT said:


> I live in the desert and this is a big deal!



Bcowen lives in the Sahara.


----------



## UntilThen (Apr 4, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> I’ve sprung for transformers from Monolithic Magnetics



Very interesting ! Is your output transformer 7kgs each? 




This amp uses Monolithic Magnetics irons.




Featured here.
http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2016...Va2mkzZG-rXQztjZG8xBicNJM8rsmKtHG_i1AXQ2bKUx8


----------



## audiargent

SonicTrance said:


> Not yet
> Still waiting on transformers for the Odyssey. I'm working on a Oblivion in the meantime which is almost ready though 👍


All things come to those who wait!


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> Very interesting ! Is your output transformer 7kgs each?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmm, maybe I should change my order to push pull 833 amps instead. That would be good for… 400 watts per channel? Wonder if the amp would cost any extra lol. I think those output transformers are noticeably more expensive than my entire amp, never mind the power supply and the rest of the circuit. Would love to hear one of those super high power single ended systems one day. Would have to win the lottery for me to own one.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> All things come to those who wait!


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Hmm, maybe I should change my order to push pull 833 amps instead. That would be good for… 400 watts per channel? Wonder if the amp would cost any extra lol. I think those output transformers are noticeably more expensive than my entire amp, never mind the power supply and the rest of the circuit. Would love to hear one of those super high power single ended systems one day. Would have to win the lottery for me to own one.



I find a custom build totally fascinating. You're involved and the builder is involved. Then you see the final product and it's all for you.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Bcowen lives in the Sahara.


I _invented_ the Sahara. Please pay closer attention. 😁


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> I find a custom build totally fascinating. You're involved and the builder is involved. Then you see the final product and it's all for you.


Absolutely. For the price this amp will cost me I could either buy a used Audio Research or McIntosh amp or get a custom amp made to my own idiosyncratic wants. Easy choice IMO.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> I find a custom build totally fascinating. You're involved and the builder is involved. Then you see the final product and it's all for you.


… @bcowen should know…he owns a ‘sideways’ Incubus Elegans built by @Paladin79  … (the ‘Inelegans’?…)


----------



## BzzzzzT

Isaacc7 said:


> It will be a fully balanced design so XLR in and one twin triode driver for each pair of output tubes. This is going to be my dream push pull amp. I’ve sprung for transformers from Monolithic Magnetics and Yamamoto sockets. It will be a tube roller’s dream! Can use 6v or 12v tubes for input and output. The input tubes will be wired for 6sn7 but are able to use anything up to a 6bx7   That will allow me to use not only my large selection of 12sn7 tubes but also the cv1102 tubes I love so much. I’ve been told that adjustments won’t be necessary for the input stage.  The output stage will have manual biasing as well as a variable b+ supply so that I can use anything from 6f6 up through el38 in either triode or ultra linear. Think it will top out around 30 watts.
> 
> I only listen via speakers but I will have a headphone output put on the amp just for completeness sake. Think it will be able to drive just about any set of headphones I ever want to try. I know it’s weird to talk about a speaker amp here on head-fi but this place has a lot of good tube info and it’s through these posts I found out about Ultrasonic Studios!
> 
> ...



That amp will be really sweet! I have a 6v6 ultralinear with potted toroids for speakers that I just love. It's punchy and very musical. I can't wait to see what Tomas comes up with!


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Thanks @Isaacc7 for the run down of your amp. This might be the first push pull from Tomas on this thread. It will be ideal to drive speakers.
> 
> Makes sense to have an amp built utilizing the tubes you already have collected over the years.


Oblivion and Citadel are also push pull amps. This is the first "old school" type push pull though. It's like a balanced Odyssey you could say. Many similarities but also many things that are different.


----------



## DecentLevi (Apr 5, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey with these EL39 tubes is the most striking to my eyes and ears. Until EL156 came along...... I shall post what I hear different between EL39 and EL156 after a few days. EL156 is pretty much end game to me. I should have Odyssey custom build for EL156.  However wait... there is another supposedly better tube.


YES UntilThen you've gotta love the EL156. I've watched for years the progression from EL 3N to 11, 12, 32, 38, 39 and I always knew there was a higher number to be 'discovered'. Shall I look for a 156 or is there gonna be an EL76,582?

All silliness aside, I really applaud the EL journey that me along with a select handful of hi-fi audio enthusiasts have gotten to discover over these years with the Feliks Audio amps, and spilled over to many others like Glenn Audio and then custom Ultrasonic Studios tailored around them. They have their own magic sauce that's pretty much impossible to replicate with varying degrees of sweetness of timbre, depth of soundstage and sparkle of realism, to name a few.

Those tube designers of last century had an unquestionable handle on the potential of tubes / valves in sound reproduction and hit a basically unfathomably high and timeless plateau with countless myriad revisions of tube types and classes that may never be surpassed. We really owe it to those who could be our great gandfathers by now.


----------



## UntilThen

DL, that post was Sept of 2021. After 7 or 8 months with Odyssey, I really cannot pick a fav power tube amongst these. They are just very special in their own ways.

Telefunken EL12 spez
La Radiotechnique EL39
GEC KT66
Tung Sol 6550 1960s
Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base
Telefunken EL156
Psvane KT88 Tii 
Radiotron 807 - this just lack a bit behind the others

These are shipped out to me today.
GEC KT88
Mullard EL34 double D getters brown base

and that will be the end of my power tubes purchase for Odyssey.


----------



## Isaacc7

BzzzzzT said:


> That amp will be really sweet! I have a 6v6 ultralinear with potted toroids for speakers that I just love. It's punchy and very musical. I can't wait to see what Tomas comes up with!


I have enjoyed eery tube I've tried in the 6v6 "family." I have Ken-Rad black glass 6v6gt, Sylvania JAN 7c5, Sylvania grey glass 6v6gt, and now Mullard 6aq5. The 6ez5 is closely related. I think the Sylvania branded GE 6ez5 I have are actually GE 6v6gt so they unsurprisingly sound good too. I have one set of RCA 6f6 which have promise but I'll need to do some more tube combos to get the most out of them. And last I have a pair of GE 6k6gt tubes that I would love to try but I need a different rectifier for my amp. 
bottom line, you can't go wrong with a 6v6!


----------



## SonicTrance

Here's another Oblivion done! I'm sure you guys are getting bored of these pics but I always take some pics of the completed amp. It's good (especially the internal photos) if the customer has any questions or issues down the line. I might as well post some here


----------



## OctavianH

I never get bored of seeing new amps.


----------



## UntilThen

It’s a very attractive looking amp. This unit has preamp out.


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> I never get bored of seeing new amps.


Me either.  Especially works of art like these.  Keep 'em coming @SonicTrance !


----------



## UntilThen

My new high end source to accompany Odyssey.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> My new high end source to accompany Odyssey.


Will you use your dac with the digital out to complement it or just the audio out ? 
The only guy i know who had such beast never filled the "Mega Storage" many times as unloading/refillingis a bit painful whith 300 empty boxes not in the good order


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> Will you use your dac with the digital out to complement it or just the audio out ?
> The only guy i know who had such beast never filled the "Mega Storage" many times as unloading/refillingis a bit painful whith 300 empty boxes not in the good order



I have optical out from the Sony CDP-CX355 to my dac M51. Considering I paid only $100 for this almost new Mega CD player, it's a steal.  I've fill up 30 CDs so far. Have a lot more to go.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm listening to Mariah Carey's CD of this song. Incredibly good from the CD and you'll not hear such voices again.


----------



## UntilThen

8 months of regular usage of average 4 hours each day, I open Odyssey just to see how it looks inside. It's as good as new compared to the picture I took on the first day.   My pride and joy, sounding as amazing as it did on the first day.


----------



## baronbeehive (Apr 10, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> 8 months of regular usage of average 4 hours each day, I open Odyssey just to see how it looks inside. It's as good as new compared to the picture I took on the first day.   My pride and joy, sounding as amazing as it did on the first day.


ONLY 4 hours a day!! I would have thought it would take that long just to change tubes 🤣.

Edit: What a life.. 4 hours a day at the amp, the other 12 on the golf course.. I feel sorry for bcowen 🙂.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> ONLY 4 hours a day!! I would have thought it would take that long just to change tubes 🤣.



I'm an expert at changing tubes now.


----------



## UntilThen

This is the important package I've been waiting for.   Now to make sure the glass is still intact.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh no it's crispy fries.


----------



## UntilThen

And there it is. As authentic as the Kangaroos.


----------



## UntilThen

The boxes are worth about $300.


----------



## UntilThen

So the problem now is I don't feel like using them as they are brand new.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> My new high end source to accompany Odyssey.


@bcowen _will go *berserk!!! … *_300 CDs worth of Marilyn Manson! Even if it is the same one/same one/same one to hell and gone! 😈🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> ONLY 4 hours a day!! I would have thought it would take that long just to change tubes 🤣.
> 
> Edit: What a life.. 4 hours a day at the amp, the other 12 on the golf course.. I feel sorry for bcowen 🙂.


…without bcowen, it would be 20 on the golf course…🥵🥵🥵…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> @bcowen _will go *berserk!!! … *_300 CDs worth of Marilyn Manson! Even if it is the same one/same one/same one to hell and gone! 😈🤣🤣



300 CDs is a lot but you can daisy chain 3 of these together to give you 900 CDs. Connections behind allows you to do that and you can select the players on the remote.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> So the problem now is I don't feel like using them as they are brand new.


Let somebody else borrow them for a while and then you can use them without problem...


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> Let somebody else borrow them for a while and then you can use them without problem...



I took your advice and let myself borrow it.... 

Last night I was using Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 double O getters black base. This morning I power on the Mullard EL34 double D getters brown for the first time since it was built, since don't know when. 60s probably.

First impression without any burn in, is ultra quietness, ultra smoothness with an amazing clarity across the frequency spectrum. It's like listening to Florence Nightingale sing. Ok that's wrong because Nightingale doesn't sing. Well anyhoo, as good as the Miniwatt 6CA7 is, this is better right off the bat.

Volume up and it's utter control of my He6se V2. How does it compare with the Miniwatt EL34 metal base? That I will find out after the Easter weekend and after I sit through the Phantom of the Opera performance at the Lady's Macquaries chair overlooking Harbour Bridge and Opera House, this Sat night.


----------



## UntilThen

This is what I will be watching on Sat night. I hear they have very good tube amplifiers.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> @bcowen _will go *berserk!!! … *_300 CDs worth of Marilyn Manson! Even if it is the same one/same one/same one to hell and gone! 😈🤣🤣


It's kind of like using multiple discs to perform the repeat function.  I'm not seeing a  problem with this.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> It's kind of like using multiple discs to perform the repeat function.  I'm not seeing a  problem with this.



The arrival of the 300 CD player coincide with the new tubes. I don't know which is giving me more joy now. There is such a crispiness to CD sound, even from this Mega changer. It's a game changer.


----------



## UntilThen

GEC KT88 in Odyssey now. I'm speechless. There is no comparison. Sound good from the start. How do you adequately describe how a tube sound. These tubes presents to my ears, facets of sound that I didn't know to ask for. I think it will last 50,000 hours.   

Date codes on the tubes are 1st tube:- 'XC Z'  2nd tube:- '7236 Z'.


----------



## UntilThen

Just a note on the Yamamoto's sockets. These have wider holes and for older vintage tubes with skinny pins, the contact is not very good. Easy solution is to use socket savers which have wider pins, like I'm using it now with those GEC KT88.

The first 10 mins with the KT88 was sublime. It was a unicorn moment. Then the right channel started to crackle ... and eventually no sound.  I swap the tubes left to right and the right channel gave out a loud pop that almost floored me. Reach for the power off button with the speed of light.

Then I remember the Miniwatt EL34 metal base needed socket savers to have better contact. So I did the same for these GEC KT88. Bingo, stereo sound again with pitch black background. The heavens parted and the rainbow appear. 

So if you're using Yamamoto's sockets, do give your precious vintage tubes some shoes.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> This is what I will be watching on Sat night. I hear they have very good tube amplifiers.


Matt your newly arrived GEC KT88's are so timelessly handsome I recommend putting a tuxedo on them and bringing them to the opera house with you.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> GEC KT88 in Odyssey now. I'm speechless. There is no comparison. Sound good from the start. How do you adequately describe how a tube sound. These tubes presents to my ears, facets of sound that I didn't know to ask for. I think it will last 50,000 hours.
> 
> Date codes on the tubes are 1st tube:- 'XC Z'  2nd tube:- '7236 Z'.


If I recall correctly the "Z" denotes Hammersmith factory which is as good as it gets. Congrats, Matt. We obsessive, questing audiophiles often talk about "endgame this" or "endgame that" but I think as power tubes the GEC Hammersmith KT88's truly are!

The only other power tube I am still very interested to try is Telefunken EL156. Any comparative thoughts?


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Matt your newly arrived GEC KT88's are so timelessly handsome I recommend putting a tuxedo on them and bringing them to the opera house with you.



I almost feel guilty using a brand new pair of GEC KT88 but hey life is short.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> If I recall correctly the "Z" denotes Hammersmith factory which is as good as it gets. Congrats, Matt. We obsessive, questing audiophiles often talk about "endgame this" or "endgame that" but I think as power tubes the GEC Hammersmith KT88's truly are!
> 
> The only other power tube I am still very interested to try is Telefunken EL156. Any comparative thoughts?



From this source https://dalmura.com.au/static/MOV GEC date coding.pdf, we can deduce that X = 1966; C = March and Z = MO Valve Co. Hammersmith.

The other tube '7236 Z' that I don't know what it is.

There are some milestones in my audio journey but hearing GEC KT88 for the first time is quite a special milestone for me. It is a special sounding tube after all. It makes a simple song complex and a complex song simple. My mouth is agape at the vocals quality, soaring high notes and liquidity of the tone. Comparing with the Telefunken EL156 will be interesting but even comparing with the Tung Sol 6550 would be interesting. GEC KT88 is the cream of MOV power tubes and 6550 is Tung Sol's glory.

GEC KT88 with Tung Sol 6550.


----------



## UntilThen

I'll get 2 of these octal socket savers for the power tube slots in Odyssey.
https://pulsetubestore.com/products...on-base-not-made-in-china-everybody-needs-one


----------



## DecentLevi

UntilThen said:


> I like getting asked such questions at 5am in the morning. Just woke up and my mind's still untainted and unbiased.
> 
> Short answer is I won't give up Oblivion. On first listen of Odyssey, I detected Tomas's sound signature in Oblivion immediately - fast transients, clarity, details and soundstage. There are differences in these 2 amps though to make them unique and very appealing.
> 
> ...


Just curious, any other comments about what a logarithmic volume controller is and how it compares to a regular linear one? It doesn't also include a stepped attenuator, does it? Does it work in the oppisite way of increasing impedance on lower levels which also negatively impacts dynamics and soundstage on lower levels? That was what I experienced with a short length impedance wire that added resistance before my headphone cable, but that doesn't seem to be the result I get with linear potentiometer however. And mind to mention how it compares to Oblivion's volume pot?


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Just curious, any other comments about what a logarithmic volume controller is and how it compares to a regular linear one? It doesn't also include a stepped attenuator, does it? Does it work in the oppisite way of increasing impedance on lower levels which also negatively impacts dynamics and soundstage on lower levels? That was what I experienced with a short length impedance wire that added resistance before my headphone cable, but that doesn't seem to be the result I get with linear potentiometer however. And mind to mention how it compares to Oblivion's volume pot?



I'll point you to this article that describes what a linear vs logarithmic volume control is and a stepped attenuator has nothing to do with it. Both can have smooth or stepped attenuator.
https://techsupport.cambridgeaudio....-Amplifiers-Linear-Logarithmic-Volume-Control

Odyssey is the first and only amp that I have that has the logarithmic volume control. I find it precise especially at low volume. At halfway point of the volume dial, it's not half power yet but then the power comes on as you turn the knob. In Odyssey, it's a crescendo because it's a powerful amp.

Oblivion volume pot is linear and is very smooth. If I didn't get to experience Odyssey's logarithmic volume control, I would be happy with Oblivion.

Tomas can chime in on the pros and cons of each. If he didn't add it in Odyssey, I wouldn't know about it.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> I'll point you to this article that describes what a linear vs logarithmic volume control is and a stepped attenuator has nothing to do with it. Both can have smooth or stepped attenuator.
> https://techsupport.cambridgeaudio....-Amplifiers-Linear-Logarithmic-Volume-Control
> 
> Odyssey is the first and only amp that I have that has the logarithmic volume control. I find it precise especially at low volume. At halfway point of the volume dial, it's not half power yet but then the power comes on as you turn the knob. In Odyssey, it's a crescendo because it's a powerful amp.
> ...


For a powerful amplifier logarithmic pot is more comfortable to adjust low volumes (the most used range in this case) and faster for insane levels...
The gradation need to reflect the logarithmic curve and is in general more dificult to engrave in front panel but if you have none it is not an issue  Generaly, it reflect a bit beter the perceived volume with log2 curve when trained.. 
Linear are the most used and visual hint is a bit easier at high volume...


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> For a powerful amplifier logarithmic pot is more comfortable to adjust low volumes (the most used range in this case) and faster for insane levels...
> The gradation need to reflect the logarithmic curve and is in general more dificult to engrave in front panel but if you have none it is not an issue



That's a good point. I don't need markings on the front panel. I know Odyssey well enough to know where I have the volume with each of the headphones I have.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> The only other power tube I am still very interested to try is Telefunken EL156. Any comparative thoughts?



The contrast is not subtle. Differences are there between GEC KT88 and Telefunken EL156. The former is your typical MOV smooth, liquid tone but still preserving the KT88 transparency and awesome bass reverb. EL156 is more transparent, brighter and tighter. If you're like @OctavianH who loves the tone of EL34, then you will prefer the GEC KT88 over the TFK EL156. 

There are degrees of transparency here. TFK EL156 > GEC KT88 > Mullard EL34 double D getters. On the transparency scale. EL34 is creamy and it's romanticism will transfixed you but the GEC KT88 is without peers. However the drum beats in 'Hey You' Pink Floyd on the EL156 is intoxicating. I get hooked when music sound so good. It's like a drug that stirs your senses.

I am still amazed at how photogenic Odyssey looks in time exposure. That's the TFK EL156 in there.


----------



## UntilThen

All this while I'm using Telefunken EL11 as drivers. Amp is in UL mode with feedback.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Just a note on the Yamamoto's sockets. These have wider holes and for older vintage tubes with skinny pins, the contact is not very good. Easy solution is to use socket savers which have wider pins, like I'm using it now with those GEC KT88.
> 
> The first 10 mins with the KT88 was sublime. It was a unicorn moment. Then the right channel started to crackle ... and eventually no sound.  I swap the tubes left to right and the right channel gave out a loud pop that almost floored me. Reach for the power off button with the speed of light.
> 
> ...


Awesome tubes! Man, I would have them locked up in my cabinet  

I wondered why the socket savers, you answered my question above.

I agree about the new camera phones, a huge step up from not long ago.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Awesome tubes! Man, I would have them locked up in my cabinet
> 
> I wondered why the socket savers, you answered my question above.
> 
> I agree about the new camera phones, a huge step up from not long ago.



I could have lock them away but then I'll always be wondering how those tubes sound like. I'm listening with GEC KT88 at 4am in the morning and it's just so quiet, I could hear a pin drop. These are more impressive than the pair of new GEC 6as7g that I bought from Stavros many years ago and which I have sold off. I will not be making the same mistake with these KT88 again.  

The more I listen to the GEC KT88, the more I'm convinced that they are the best of my power tubes. Perfect in tone, timbre and pitch. Tomas biased Odyssey on KT88 so it's no wonder they sound incredible. How he set the auto bias or cathode bias so well I don't know. Every power tubes sounded sublime in Odyssey.

I like this picture taken just a minute ago because the lighting looks good to me but the tone is just incredible. Listening with He1000se, this is a pleasure oozing machine.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I could have lock them away but then I'll always be wondering how those tubes sound like. I'm listening with GEC KT88 at 4am in the morning and it's just so quiet, I could hear a pin drop. These are more impressive than the pair of new GEC 6as7g that I bought from Stavros many years ago and which I have sold off. I will not be making the same mistake with these KT88 again.
> 
> The more I listen to the GEC KT88, the more I'm convinced that they are the best of my power tubes. Perfect in tone, timbre and pitch. Tomas biased Odyssey on KT88 so it's no wonder they sound incredible. How he set the auto bias or cathode bias so well I don't know. Every power tubes sounded sublime in Odyssey.
> 
> I like this picture taken just a minute ago because the lighting looks good to me but the tone is just incredible. Listening with He1000se, this is a pleasure oozing machine.


Beautiful tubes! I see they are well matched as well by looking at the mA meters!


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> The contrast is not subtle. Differences are there between GEC KT88 and Telefunken EL156. The former is your typical MOV smooth, liquid tone but still preserving the KT88 transparency and awesome bass reverb. EL156 is more transparent, brighter and tighter. If you're like @OctavianH who loves the tone of EL34, then you will prefer the GEC KT88 over the TFK EL156.
> 
> There are degrees of transparency here. TFK EL156 > GEC KT88 > Mullard EL34 double D getters. On the transparency scale. EL34 is creamy and it's romanticism will transfixed you but the GEC KT88 is without peers. However the drum beats in 'Hey You' Pink Floyd on the EL156 is intoxicating. I get hooked when music sound so good. It's like a drug that stirs your senses.
> 
> I am still amazed at how photogenic Odyssey looks in time exposure. That's the TFK EL156 in there.


Terrific comments, providing a great sense of how they differ. I think depending upon the music and my state of mind, I may enjoy either and do have some TFK EL156 en route to put that to the test. Feeling pretty darn fortunate to have high quality options to choose from like GEC KT88 and TFK EL156!


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> From this source https://dalmura.com.au/static/MOV GEC date coding.pdf, we can deduce that X = 1966; C = March and Z = MO Valve Co. Hammersmith.
> 
> The other tube '7236 Z' that I don't know what it is.
> 
> ...


I don't know when GEC production of these tubes stopped. A wild guess would be that 7236 means week 36 1972. They had run out of the alphabet by then.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Beautiful tubes! I see they are well matched as well by looking at the mA meters!



I know. Those mA meters are useful and not just for show.  



LoryWiv said:


> Terrific comments, providing a great sense of how they differ. I think depending upon the music and my state of mind, I may enjoy either and do have some TFK EL156 en route to put that to the test. Feeling pretty darn fortunate to have high quality options to choose from like GEC KT88 and TFK EL156!



They are desirable tubes. You've the best but the best here is hard to nail down in the company of the other power tubes. I'm using the Mullard EL34 double D getters brown base now. The date codes are:-

xf4 L1F - Brussels, Belgium, June 1961 production
xf4 L0J - Brussels, Belgium, October 1960 production

These EL34 are superb. Buttery smooth with a great midrange engagement.



triod750 said:


> I don't know when GEC production of these tubes stopped. A wild guess would be that 7236 means week 36 1972. They had run out of the alphabet by then.



Last night, a local forum member told me the same thing. Week 63 of 1972 - Hammersmith.


----------



## UntilThen

How do you decide which is better - GEC or Telefunken? It's impossible to do that. I've listen to the GEC KT88 for more than one day and now I've put in the TFK EL12spez which is a superb tube and cheaper when I bought it. A new pair cost US$399 now. https://www.ebay.com/itm/325012269197?hash=item4bac3da88d:g:OHoAAOSweVVh7YQU

Both power tubes are great IMO. They are just different. EL12 spez is pure pedigree and will stand on it's own. Both are just getting rarer by the day.

TFK EL11 and EL12 spez is an incredible sounding combination.


----------



## OctavianH (Apr 13, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> The more I listen to the GEC KT88, the more I'm convinced that they are the best of my power tubes. Perfect in tone, timbre and pitch. Tomas biased Odyssey on KT88 so it's no wonder they sound incredible. How he set the auto bias or cathode bias so well I don't know. Every power tubes sounded sublime in Odyssey.


I am very glad to read your impressions about GEC KT88. It seems GEC tubes have something special which pairs incredibly well with UltraSonic amplifiers. A kind of sweetness which cannot be obtained using other vendor's tubes. I also like a lot GEC on my amplifier, in my case the GEC ATS25 which is an european version of 807.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I also like a lot GEC on my amplifier, in my case the GEC ATS25 which is an european version of 807.



I'm tempted to buy a pair of GEC ATS25 now.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> I'm tempted to buy a pair of GEC ATS25 now.


Honestly, you should be.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Honestly, you should be.



My first love affair with 807 dates back to Dec 2021.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/post-16730392

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/post-16730418

However with so many other great power tubes in my stash, 807 has kind of drop off the radar. Even EL39 is not getting enough time in the amp. It's not that they are less good but they have to content with other triple A tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

I still can't believe Dennis Had call Bcowen a good friend and audio golden ear. All this while I treated him like my caddy. I'm sorry Bill for such disrespect but I'll up your pay by $1.


----------



## triod750

If he is a golden ear he might make do with mono.  
Would save him a lot of money...


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> I still can't believe Dennis Had call Bcowen a good friend and audio golden ear. All this while I treated him like my caddy. I'm sorry Bill for such disrespect but I'll up your pay by $1.


Wait, did I miss something? I love my Dennis Had amp, it's what I do all of my tube experiments with. Brown tell Dennis his fans are waiting to see what he's got planned next.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Wait, did I miss something? I love my Dennis Had amp, it's what I do all of my tube experiments with. Brown tell Dennis his fans are waiting to see what he's got planned next.



It's all here. 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/post-16730496


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> It's all here.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/post-16730496


Ah, I missed that whole exchange. Bcowen you should seek out some of Dennis's newer amps, they are amazing! I love my Firebottle kt88 amp even though I don't use kt88s with them.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Ah, I missed that whole exchange. Bcowen you should seek out some of Dennis's newer amps, they are amazing! I love my Firebottle kt88 amp even though I don't use kt88s with them.



I hope you didn't miss all the videos I posted on Christmas day.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I still can't believe Dennis Had call Bcowen a good friend and audio golden ear. All this while I treated him like my caddy. I'm sorry Bill for such disrespect but I'll up your pay by $1.


This should be a lesson to you.  Doubling my pay is a good start though.


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> Ah, I missed that whole exchange. Bcowen you should seek out some of Dennis's newer amps, they are amazing! I love my Firebottle kt88 amp even though I don't use kt88s with them.


Yeah, I need to get back in touch with him.  It's been way too long.


----------



## UntilThen

Happy Easter holidays everyone. Just remember when you tube don't drive.


----------



## triod750

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I need to get back in touch with him.  It's been way too long.


You really should. Yes, I'm serious, the sooner the better. Life is short and it is easy to be too late.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> You really should. Yes, I'm serious, the sooner the better. Life is short and it is easy to be too late.



It's alright. He's in touch with me. That more than compensate.


----------



## triod750




----------



## UntilThen

Yin and Yang has arrived. GEC A2900 and TFK ECC801s. These tubes are so new ! Well they are new. Like brand new. Thanks Tom. Wonderful person he is. Thanks to Octa for alerting me to his 4sale thread. I think the GEC A2900 are gone now but there should still be 801s available.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Yin and Yang has arrived. GEC A2900 and TFK ECC801s. These tubes are so new ! Well they are new. Like brand new. Thanks Tom. Wonderful person he is. Thanks to Octa for alerting me to his 4sale thread. I think the GEC A2900 are gone now but there should still be 801s available.


Are those spare wheels for your roller skates?  😂😂


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Are those spare wheels for your roller skates?  😂😂



Without those wheels, the tubes will roll.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm usually not one of those who must use tubes of the same brand. I like to mix and match but now I have GEC A2900 as driver, GEC KT88 as power tubes and Sittard GZ34 for rectifier duties. Headphone is He1000se and dac is NAD M51.

Song is Phantom of the Opera by Sarah Brightman, followed by Don't Cry for me Argentina by Katherine Jenkins. Omg what a performance. I did not expect these GEC combo to excel but it more than excel. It soar and soar, upwards and didn't come down again. Tonight I'm watching Phantom of the Opera live but I doubt it will be better than what I am hearing now. So magnificent is the performance, I'm breathless. And I haven't try the TFK ECC801s yet !


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Are those spare wheels for your roller skates?  😂😂


They are spares for these:


----------



## UntilThen

Incredible I heard those songs 3 times. Now I will switch over to the Telefunken ECC801s. Let's see what this German driver do.


----------



## UntilThen

Incredibly transparent, ultra revealing top end and holographic soundstage. The TFK ECC801s sounded sharper but pair very well with the GEC KT88. It's too early for me to post anything more or state which I prefer. Alright that's enough or tonight live show will be a wash out.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> Incredibly transparent, ultra revealing top end and holographic soundstage. The TFK ECC801s sounded sharper but pair very well with the GEC KT88. It's too early for me to post anything more or state which I prefer. Alright that's enough or tonight live show will be a wash out.


With the old school design, drivers gives a lot for the final tonality specialy with high mu tubes. Eternity is not as sensible for the input tubes even if you can detect flavors biggest part is driven by the output tube.

Your remarks about GEC,TFK and Siemens is exactly the brand "signature" we agreed long time ago. TFK and Siemens are very precise for all the spectrum with a spot on the hight without sibilance you casn find it a bid dry compared to other brand like GEC or Mullard. (on the same tonality but US leage you have Sylvania).


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> With the old school design, drivers gives a lot for the final tonality specialy with high mu tubes. Eternity is not as sensible for the input tubes even if you can detect flavors biggest part is driven by the output tube.
> 
> Your remarks about GEC,TFK and Siemens is exactly the brand "signature" we agreed long time ago. TFK and Siemens are very precise for all the spectrum with a spot on the hight without sibilance you casn find it a bid dry compared to other brand like GEC or Mullard. (on the same tonality but US leage you have Sylvania).



Yes precisely regarding the TFK ECC801s. Precise is the right word. However the GEC A2900 is very clear and yet very smooth with a bass that draws you in. So many nice tubes and I've not purchase the Footscray.    

This family of 12at7 is very quiet, low noise.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Without those wheels, the tubes will roll.


So... you're saying you oppose tube rolling?!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Happy Easter holidays everyone. Just remember when you tube don't drive.


Happy Easter guys, weather here warm and sunny, first time since last year! Spring has truly sprung 🥳.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> They are spares for these:


Are those extras for the film The Fly? ... or have they just been listening way too much to their headphone amps and grown new ear stalks to repair their damaged auditory nerves ... UT watch out it may happen to  you 🙂


----------



## UntilThen

The show is starting soon


----------



## baronbeehive

hpamdr said:


> With the old school design, drivers gives a lot for the final tonality specialy with high mu tubes. Eternity is not as sensible for the input tubes even if you can detect flavors biggest part is driven by the output tube.
> 
> Your remarks about GEC,TFK and Siemens is *exactly the brand "signature"* we agreed long time ago. TFK and Siemens are very precise for all the spectrum with a spot on the hight without sibilance you casn find it a bid dry compared to other brand like GEC or Mullard. (on the same tonality but US leage you have Sylvania).


I thought exactly the same!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Yes precisely regarding the TFK ECC801s. Precise is the right word. However the GEC A2900 is very clear and yet very smooth with a bass that draws you in. So many nice tubes and* I've not purchase the Footscray.*


That explains why they haven't gone up in price... *yet*!


----------



## UntilThen

Footscray !!!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Footscray !!!


WOW! Is that inside Sydney Opera House?


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> WOW! Is that inside Sydney Opera House?



No the performance is not inside Opera House but at Macquaries Chair overlooking Opera House and Harbour Bridge.


----------



## LoryWiv

Enjoy, although the sound quality may not measure up to Odyssey!


----------



## UntilThen

Don't be OCD like me. I replace a brand new pair of Audeze pads in 3 months, all because I wanted to clean the surface thoroughly before putting the new pads on. So this is another set of new pads and this time it's aligned 101 %. I ain't touching it again. Not for another 20 years.


----------



## UntilThen

The GEC combo of A2900 and KT88 is without doubt the best in my humble opinion.  Even ousting the Berlin tubes. However one can't survive on cavair everyday. So it's back to daily rice with these Mullard PQ6201 and Shuguang KT88-Z.

The strange thing is the Mullard cost as much as the GEC.


----------



## UntilThen

These octal socket savers came from Pulse Tube Store today. Check it out here. https://pulsetubestore.com/products...on-base-not-made-in-china-everybody-needs-one

I must say they are indeed of better quality in construction and snug fit. Even came in a special custom made plastic box.




With KT88 inserted.


----------



## UntilThen

Here it is in Odyssey. I would have prefer it to be wider to fit in diameter with the GEC KT88 base but oh well, not much I can do about it.  The KT88 fit very tightly into that adapter so I don't think I will be removing it anytime soon. It's a perfect coupling.

So how does it sound? As good as adapterless.


----------



## OctavianH

Intere


UntilThen said:


> These octal socket savers came from Pulse Tube Store today. Check it out here. https://pulsetubestore.com/products/plug-play-novib-octal-nos-ge-usa-omron-japan-socket-saver©-with-vibration-reduction-base-not-made-in-china-everybody-needs-one


Socket savers with vibration reduction. Cool feature, any audible improvements? 

Interesting that you like GEC KT88 with GEC A2900. I was never able to use a full GEC setup to please me. I have to try this.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Socket savers with vibration reduction. Cool feature, any audible improvements?
> 
> Interesting that you like GEC KT88 with GEC A2900. I was never able to use a full GEC setup to please me. I have to try this.



Tone seem to tighten up with the socket savers. More cutting edge. Maybe it's my brain trying to justify buying these vibration reducing socket savers. In any case I feel good. That's all that matters.  

Contrary to the perception that an all GEC setup is warm warm and warm. That's not the case here. First of all, KT88 can never be classified as warm. Secondly the GEC A2900 is a very transparent sounding tube, much to my amazement. Not the transparent Telefunken ECC801S kind but still nevertheless transparent with a masking of smoothness. That's what makes the A2900 special.


----------



## UntilThen

It's not gimmick after all these adapters from Pulse. I have a quad of Mullard EL34 metal base, the 2nd pair given to me by my tube supplier because I told him the 1st pairs pin contact is not good. It's intermittent cutting on and off. So he gave me another pair but alas this 2nd pair was also cutting on and off. So I didn't use it. Now this 2nd pair with these Pulse adapters are pulsing with delight !

So never discard your recalcitrant metal bases. Get these pulse inducing socket savers. Now see how good looking they are.


----------



## UntilThen

Sup my favourite thread. Seems quiet again here. Well it's Anzac Day today and I went to Port Stephens for a Dolphin Cruise. Had to tear myself away from Odyssey and all that tube rolling. Here are some pictures captured from my Leica aka iPhone 11 Pro Max .... I know I know... haven't upgraded the phone yet.





There's the dolphin !!!


----------



## TheMiddleSky

UntilThen said:


> Sup my favourite thread. Seems quiet again here. Well it's Anzac Day today and I went to Port Stephens for a Dolphin Cruise. Had to tear myself away from Odyssey and all that tube rolling. Here are some pictures captured from my Leica aka iPhone 11 Pro Max .... I know I know... haven't upgraded the phone yet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't worry about your phone, 99% people here will not notice the difference between 11pro max and 13 pro max for this kind of photos. Unless they compare it side by side and pixel peeping. Even that so, it still not easy to distinguish them in bright light scenery.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> There's the dolphin !!!


Perhaps you could get a close up next time so we can see it 🙂.

Nice pics!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Perhaps you could get a close up next time so we can see it 🙂.



If you insist. Is this better?


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> If you insist. Is this better?


Haha.. synchronized dolphins, you must have waited for hours 😉.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> If you insist. Is this better?


The one on the left is Flipper.  I'd recognize him anywhere.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> The one on the left is Flipper.  I'd recognize him anywhere.



The middle one is Roller.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> The middle one is Roller.


Tube Roller? My kind of dolphin.


----------



## baronbeehive

The one on the right is a selfie freak 🙃.


----------



## OctavianH

Hmm, no black Odyssey yet?


----------



## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> Hmm, no black Odyssey yet?


Delays in delivery of transformers, again.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Delays in delivery of transformers, again.



It will be worth the wait. There were a few delays with my Odyssey too. If I were to do it again, it would still be the same spec. I wouldn't change a thing.


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Initial ETA was 12/2021 but "thanks" to Sowter screwing-up my OPT order - not before 3/2022



Hey Zachi, have you got your amp?


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Hey Zachi, have you got your amp?


Not yet. Hopefully Mischa will complete it in May... Right @A2029 ?


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> It will be worth the wait. There were a few delays with my Odyssey too. If I were to do it again, it would still be the same spec. I wouldn't change a thing.


I believe there should be an update, today or tomorrow


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> I believe there should be an update, today or tomorrow



Well we're waiting to see the black swan.


----------



## SonicTrance

@audiargent 
Here it is, finally! The black Odyssey featuring KT170's, a pair of 5C3S's and a pair of 6SN7W's!
The "Audio gd theme" is intentional to match equipment


----------



## mfgillia

SonicTrance said:


> @audiargent
> Here it is, finally! The black Odyssey featuring KT170's, a pair of 5C3S's and a pair of 6SN7W's!
> The "Audio gd theme" is intentional to match equipment


Gorgeous! What are the full specs and included options?


----------



## audiargent

SonicTrance said:


> @audiargent
> Here it is, finally! The black Odyssey featuring KT170's, a pair of 5C3S's and a pair of 6SN7W's!
> The "Audio gd theme" is intentional to match equipment


What can I say, the workmanship looks excellent. 

I hope it sounds as good as it looks! I sure it will.

I will start with the "cheaper" tubes, a JJ set of KT66, 5U4GB and 6SN7.

Then we start the rolling.


----------



## SonicTrance

mfgillia said:


> Gorgeous! What are the full specs and included options?


Thanks!

These are the included options:

Dual rectifiers

Dual 6SN7/6SL7 input tubes

EL34 – KT170 output tubes (auto bias)

2 x RCA inputs

2 x XLR input

Source selector switch on front panel

Impedance switch on front panel 

Bottom mounted tube sockets with black decorative rings

Mundorf caps

Gain switch 

Triode/Ultralinear switch

Power output is 10W in triode mode and 15W in ultralinear mode.


----------



## audiargent

mfgillia said:


> Gorgeous! What are the full specs and included options?


I may be biased - but I think, aesthetically speaking, it is the most stunning amp he has designed.

A black swan as @UntilThen  nicknamed it.

Can't wait to put it thru it's paces and se how they push the HE-6SE!

Thomas thinks it will output close to 10W at 50 ohms, in ultralinear, so should be a beast, thanks to the impedance matching.

Any new production 6SN7 or 6SL7 tubes you can recommend? It will also take any other driver tubes, according to Tomas, providing I find adaptors.


----------



## UntilThen

Visually stunning, a work of art. Hard to believe the Black Swan looks as good if not better than White Gandalf.

Tomas, since this is an SE amp, what advantages are there in dual rectifiers?


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Visually stunning, a work of art. Hard to believe the Black Swan looks as good if not better than White Gandalf.
> 
> Tomas, since this is an SE amp, what advantages are there in dual rectifiers?


I fell in love with the big EML 5U4Gs, and asked if it could be done. Definitely needed a bigger mains transformer!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> I fell in love with the big EML 5U4Gs, and asked if it could be done. Definitely needed a bigger mains transformer!



I do think that the cheaper and slimmer 5C3S pairs better with the monster KT170. That big mains transformer in black is gorgeous. I didn't think Sowter will do black output transformers. Did Tomas have the end caps spray painted black?

I'm getting a 596 rectifier with custom made adapter from Jack of Woo Audio.

On the whole though, it's a unified look. Main controls all in front make sense but is this chassis wider than the silver Odyssey or the same size?

Power wise in both black and silver are the same @ 10w and 15w (triode and ultralinear) but you do have that impedance matching switch.

I suppose you could use pairs of 12au7, 12at7 or 12ax7 as drivers too? With adapters of course.


----------



## audiargent (May 2, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> I do think that the cheaper and slimmer 5C3S pairs better with the monster KT170. That big mains transformer in black is gorgeous. I didn't think Sowter will do black output transformers. Did Tomas have the end caps spray painted black?
> 
> I'm getting a 596 rectifier with custom made adapter from Jack of Woo Audio.
> 
> ...


I think the case is 38 cm wide. 

I do not know what he did to the end bells, but he had assured me they would be black!

Yes, about the power, apparently the amp sounded better with lower voltages and slightly less power than envisaged, I fully trust Tomas on this.

I may switch to KR Audio KT150s, they have a special edition that has an interesting shape, apart from sounding good of course.

As I said before, initially I will just out current production JJs in it, and see how things go.

I also have the Tung-Sol 6SL7 Gold-Pins and 5AR4s - I'll see which sound I prefer and go in that direction.

Yes the impedance switch helps, especially for the 50-60 ohm range which is were the HE-6SE and Susvara lay. Exactly the power figures I needed, and all class A.

As regards to the 12A*7, yes it can be done, Tomas confirmed.


----------



## UntilThen

Get yourself a pair of Tung Sol 6SL7gt black glass round plates. NOS 6SL7 are still OK in price. Forget about current production drivers.  

Sylvania 6SL7gt as recommended by Bcowen which I bought one are also good. Or Brimar 6SL7. Good 6SN7s are more costly and less gain. There are lots of good 12at7 which I've tried. GEC A2900, Telefunken ECC801S, Mullard PQ 6201, etc. Or even a pair of RCA 5691 red base. You need only one pair to start off with.

Have a look here or on ebay.
https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/preamp/6sl7gt


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> I think the case is 38 cm wide.



That's the same size as my Odyssey. It's great. Tomas managed to fit everything in. It's a good size.

width: 280 depth: 280 height: 260


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> That's the same size as my Odyssey. It's great. Tomas managed to fit everything in. It's a good size.
> 
> width: 280 depth: 280 height: 260


I see this and I get excited because mine will have a resemblance to this. I'm getting mine in black as well but apparently my transformers are big enough that the meters will have to go one the front instead of the top. 

On the other hand.... I've had a weird week. I got sick with something that isn't Covid apparently. Whatever it is it has knocked me down and left me flat. No problem, I'll just listen to my system and while away the hours. Except my preamp has developed a fault. Grr.... So I've moved back to just my DAC into a passive preamp into my amp. Currently listening to it with a cv1102 input tube and a pair of el38 in SEP and it sounds amazing. If I had any sense in my damn head I would leave well enough alone and ride this combo into the sunset for the rest of my life. 

But of course I won't. While the passive preamp is more transparent the active stage is bigger and lusher. And yes I know that by definition it can only be adding distortion (and at quite a price!) but I do miss it already. And no, I don't need the PP amp Thomas is building for me in October but I do want it. Seeing this picture makes me both furious and excited lol. I do think I have managed to calm my tube buying frenzy now that I have socked away enough to last me several lifetimes with several amps! Well, I'm certainly done buying expensive tubes... I will need to spend a lot on adapters for a push pull amp though...

Anyway, just venting about how much I dislike what I've spent and excited to hear what else is in store with my amp. I guess this is my long way of saying I'm jealous! lol


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Well, I'm certainly done buying expensive tubes...



Famous last words. I told myself after GEC KT88 and that Mullard EL34, that's it. However now I'm spending another US$400 for the 596 rectifier and adapter from Woo.

It will look great in Odyssey though... and I hope sound good too.


----------



## OctavianH (May 3, 2022)

The amp looks incredible. One thing which came into my mind was related to the decorative rings. You might have problems with some adapters. So be careful.
For example my EL3N adapters.





Or you can use a socket saver under them. But in that case you have 1 more connection...


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Famous last words. I told myself after GEC KT88 and that Mullard EL34, that's it. However now I'm spending another US$400 for the 596 rectifier and adapter from Woo.
> 
> It will look great in Odyssey though... and I hope sound good too.


That is a beautiful rectifier @UntilThen!

Hopefully there is some space to allow for some slight difference in size!


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Tomas, since this is an SE amp, what advantages are there in dual rectifiers?


Advantage is lower voltage drop and less strain on the rectifier tubes and, of course, the looks! 
Disadvantage is heat and the 6A requirements for the 5V winding!



UntilThen said:


> Did Tomas have the end caps spray painted black?


Those endbells are Hammond I had left over! Perfect match for the Hammond mains transformer!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> That is a beautiful rectifier @UntilThen!
> 
> Hopefully there is some space to allow for some slight difference in size!



Let’s not worry about the 596 rectifier 😀

What I want to know is what you think of Odyssey when you first listen to your headphone with it.

Of course double check and follow Tomas’s operating instructions. Don’t wreck it. 🤤 There are lots of switches there.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Let’s not worry about the 596 rectifier 😀
> 
> What I want to know is what you think of Odyssey when you first listen to your headphone with it.
> 
> Of course double check and follow Tomas’s operating instructions. Don’t wreck it. 🤤 There are lots of switches there.


I will.

Maybe, just maybe I might be able to get a B-Stock LCD-4.

Let's see, these things are expensive. The HE-6SE will do, and with 10 W, that should be a breeze.

I'll be updating you by next week hopefully!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> I will.
> 
> Maybe, just maybe I might be able to get a B-Stock LCD-4.
> 
> ...



These days Odyssey is driving my Axis Voicebox S speakers more than my headphones. LCD4, He6se not used much. When I listen to headphones, it's the He1000se.  

Be glad your Odyssey drives speakers.


----------



## mfgillia

UntilThen said:


> These days Odyssey is driving my Axis Voicebox S speakers more than my headphones. LCD4, He6se not used much. When I listen to headphones, it's the He1000se.
> 
> Be glad your Odyssey drives speakers.


Does it though? Didn't see speaker connections in those pictures nor on the list of included options...


----------



## audiargent

mfgillia said:


> Does it though? Didn't see speaker connections in those pictures nor on the list of included options...


No it does not. I don't have space for speakers. Only headphones! 🎧


----------



## UntilThen

mfgillia said:


> Does it though? Didn't see speaker connections in those pictures nor on the list of included options...



Ok I thought he has speakers out but he doesn't  Mine has.


----------



## SonicTrance

audiargent said:


> No it does not. I don't have space for speakers. Only headphones! 🎧


You can drive speakers through the headphone outputs on the front should you wish. Just put the impedance switch to low.


----------



## audiargent

SonicTrance said:


> You can drive speakers through the headphone outputs on the front should you wish. Just put the impedance switch to low.


Good to know! 

Maybe if I ever consider going into electrostatics I will use that into an energiser.

Unless you reveal something else!


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> Famous last words. I told myself after GEC KT88 and that Mullard EL34, that's it. However now I'm spending another US$400 for the 596 rectifier and adapter from Woo.
> 
> It will look great in Odyssey though... and I hope sound good too.


Heh, yeah, you operate at a different level lol. The most I have ever paid for a tube was about $175. That was for my round plate black glass Tungsol 12sn7 from Andy at Vintage Tube Services. I paid the premium because he has them tested and matched every which way and has a warranty. He’s a bit crazy really but his obsessiveness pays off in the sonics. My next most expensive tubes were my cv1102. I have not regretted buying any of these tubes, they’re amazing. I do have a lifetime supply of those now so I’m done right? I dread finding out about another killer tube…

When it comes to output tubes I tend to be a cheapskate if for no other reason than with a push pull amp on the way I need 4 at a time. I scour then internet for oddball bases and 12v versions of popular tubes. Plus, since I don’t need much power I don’t mind using lower powered tubes like an 807 vs a 6l6gc. I’ve really well with the 6v6 family. The 6v6 itself is great but related tubes like the 6f6, 6aq5, 7c5, and all the 12v equivalents like 14c5 and 12v6 are all great sounding and CHEAP! I’ve also had fun finding tubes like the 6bg6 and 5b/254m which are 807 variants. The N34 is a 12v version of the el33. Tubes like the 12av5 and 6u50 have triode curves resembling the 2a3 and 300b respectively. All of these have the opposite problem for me, since they are so cheap I find myself picking them up Willy nilly and I now look like a hoarder. All of them require adapters though. In theory that means the higher cost will deter me from making so many of these purchases. In reality it just delays when I get to hear them lol.


----------



## audiargent

Isaacc7 said:


> Heh, yeah, you operate at a different level lol. The most I have ever paid for a tube was about $175. That was for my round plate black glass Tungsol 12sn7 from Andy at Vintage Tube Services. I paid the premium because he has them tested and matched every which way and has a warranty. He’s a bit crazy really but his obsessiveness pays off in the sonics. My next most expensive tubes were my cv1102. I have not regretted buying any of these tubes, they’re amazing. I do have a lifetime supply of those now so I’m done right? I dread finding out about another killer tube…
> 
> When it comes to output tubes I tend to be a cheapskate if for no other reason than with a push pull amp on the way I need 4 at a time. I scour then internet for oddball bases and 12v versions of popular tubes. Plus, since I don’t need much power I don’t mind using lower powered tubes like an 807 vs a 6l6gc. I’ve really well with the 6v6 family. The 6v6 itself is great but related tubes like the 6f6, 6aq5, 7c5, and all the 12v equivalents like 14c5 and 12v6 are all great sounding and CHEAP! I’ve also had fun finding tubes like the 6bg6 and 5b/254m which are 807 variants. The N34 is a 12v version of the el33. Tubes like the 12av5 and 6u50 have triode curves resembling the 2a3 and 300b respectively. All of these have the opposite problem for me, since they are so cheap I find myself picking them up Willy nilly and I now look like a hoarder. All of them require adapters though. In theory that means the higher cost will deter me from making so many of these purchases. In reality it just delays when I get to hear them lol.


Can these tubes be used in Odyssey @SonicTrance ?


----------



## Isaacc7

audiargent said:


> Can these tubes be used in Odyssey @SonicTrance ?


The amp I have coming from @SonicTrance will let me use all sorts of crazy tubes. One of the primary goals of the amp is to allow me to try all different tubes and combos. I had to pay extra for for a power transformer that can handle the extra voltages and amps. He is also going to allow me to adjust both bias current and plate voltage for maximum flexibility.


----------



## SonicTrance

audiargent said:


> Can these tubes be used in Odyssey @SonicTrance ?


Not all of them. When you want to know if a tube is compatible or not, look at the datasheet and look for maximum plate voltage, Va. And max g2 voltage. Those should both be 400V or more.


----------



## Velozity

Just purchased the Telemachus from the classifieds.  Looking forward to seeing what the UltraSonic Studios hype is all about  .  I love my one-of-a-kind GOTL but I've been itching to try something new.  Now to find some 300B tubes...


----------



## normie610

Velozity said:


> Just purchased the Telemachus from the classifieds.  Looking forward to seeing what the UltraSonic Studios hype is all about  .  I love my one-of-a-kind GOTL but I've been itching to try something new.  Now to find some 300B tubes...


Wow there’s one sold in classifieds? That’s fast for a relatively new product. Impressions please! 😊


----------



## UntilThen

Velozity said:


> Just purchased the Telemachus from the classifieds.  Looking forward to seeing what the UltraSonic Studios hype is all about  .  I love my one-of-a-kind GOTL but I've been itching to try something new.  Now to find some 300B tubes...



That's a good buy at that price because the Sowter transformers and Yamamoto sockets would have already cost a pretty penny.

I haven't heard Telemarchus but as someone who has own GOTL for 2 years and now having Odyssey, the step up is huge to my ears. Different tube types though so it's a different dimension.


----------



## bcowen

Velozity said:


> Just purchased the Telemachus from the classifieds.  Looking forward to seeing what the UltraSonic Studios hype is all about  .  I love my one-of-a-kind GOTL but I've been itching to try something new. * Now to find some 300B tubes... *


Here you go.  Might as well just start with the best and avoid upgrade-itis.


----------



## UntilThen

Mmmm https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/234529969004?hash=item369b13536c:g:y6IAAOSwr91iaonY


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Mmmm https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/234529969004?hash=item369b13536c:g:y6IAAOSwr91iaonY


Cheapskate.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Here you go.  Might as well just start with the best and avoid upgrade-itis.


…one cannot pass up the free shipping !!


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Cheapskate.



It's still more expensive than the GEC KT88 !!!


----------



## Velozity

Yes I'm thinking about getting the WE reissues.  According to the website they're in stock.  Any of the Chinese ones worthwhile?


----------



## UntilThen

Velozity said:


> Yes I'm thinking about getting the WE reissues.  According to the website they're in stock.  Any of the Chinese ones worthwhile?


I’m using Genalex 300b in my 300b amp. It’s ok for the price.


----------



## Isaacc7

Velozity said:


> Yes I'm thinking about getting the WE reissues.  According to the website they're in stock.  Any of the Chinese ones worthwhile?


Why get the reissues when you could get the real deal? https://tubedepot.com/products/nos-western-electric-300b-black-plate-1961-matched-pair


----------



## jonathan c

Velozity said:


> Yes I'm thinking about getting the WE reissues.  According to the website they're in stock.  Any of the Chinese ones worthwhile?


Eastern Electric? 🤣


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Why get the reissues when you could get the real deal? https://tubedepot.com/products/nos-western-electric-300b-black-plate-1961-matched-pair



Because when you buy that, you will just keep it for another 20 years.


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> Why get the reissues when you could get the real deal? https://tubedepot.com/products/nos-western-electric-300b-black-plate-1961-matched-pair


AAAAAAAGHHHHHHHHH!!  Why did I sell mine for peanuts .


----------



## Velozity

Isaacc7 said:


> Why get the reissues when you could get the real deal? https://tubedepot.com/products/nos-western-electric-300b-black-plate-1961-matched-pair




Lol, yeah ok 

This brings up a question though... Have any of you guys/gals been able to successfully insure your tube collections?  It's something I've wondered about considering these tubes that are worth so much money yet are also so extremely fragile.  I haven't looked into it yet but wondering if anyone actually does that??


----------



## bcowen

Velozity said:


> Yes I'm thinking about getting the WE reissues.  According to the website they're in stock.  Any of the Chinese ones worthwhile?


Sorry, but I can't offer any insight on current Chinese ones.  Back when I was using/buying 300B's (20+ years ago), the WE's were really the only game in town. There were the Cetrons (pretty lame) and the Sovteks (cheap, and sounded like it). The Chinese offerings back then (Shuguang mostly) were utter garbage. Entirely possible (and even probable) that some of the current China offerings have merit though.

(I still use 300B's in my speaker amp, but they are the high current version 300BXLS that are only made by KR and EML. So rolling options are pretty limited, as regular 300B's would get toasted at the higher operating voltages. I like the KR's better, but as the designer voiced the amp with them the EML's are at a disadvantage).


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> Why get the reissues when you could get the real deal? https://tubedepot.com/products/nos-western-electric-300b-black-plate-1961-matched-pair


LOL!  I paid about a quarter of that for a factory matched _quad_ of 1958's.  Of course that was quite a while ago....


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I paid about a quarter of that for a factory matched _quad_ of 1958's. Of course that was quite a while ago....


…the perfect portfolio for a secure retirement: bonds, precious metals, stocks, tubes…😜


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …the perfect portfolio for a secure retirement: bonds, precious metals, stocks, tubes…😜


And beer.  Never forget beer.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> And beer.  Never forget beer.


The bonds, precious metals, stocks, tubes _pay for_ retirement. Beer is _consumed in_ retirement…😃🤪…


----------



## bcowen (May 6, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> The bonds, precious metals, stocks, tubes _pay for_ retirement. Beer is _consumed in_ retirement…😃🤪…


Oh.  Guess I'm not ready to retire yet.  Oh well.    

Think I'll have a beer...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Oh.  Guess I'm not ready to retire yet.  Oh well.
> 
> Think I'll have a beer...


😭…tears in the beer, when I think of the years, to come so near…😩


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> …the perfect portfolio for a secure retirement: bonds, precious metals, stocks, tubes…😜


If only... I still had my quad of WE's that would have seen me off in retirement to the Cayman islands for good, away from all this. Now all I've got are these GE's which will never increase in value... maybe if I sell them and buy back when they have dropped I could make a killing 😋.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Sorry, but I can't offer any insight on current Chinese ones.  Back when I was using/buying 300B's (20+ years ago), the WE's were really the only game in town. There were the Cetrons (pretty lame) and the Sovteks (cheap, and sounded like it). The Chinese offerings back then (Shuguang mostly) were utter garbage. Entirely possible (and even probable) that some of the current China offerings have merit though.
> 
> (I still use 300B's in my speaker amp, but they are the high current version 300BXLS that are only made by KR and EML. So rolling options are pretty limited, as regular 300B's would get toasted at the higher operating voltages. I like the KR's better, but as the designer voiced the amp with them the EML's are at a disadvantage).


I recently purchased some Shuguangs, not bad but not even a match for my RCA's. I think there are some good Chinese tubes around these days and some of the reissues aren't bad but I would never choose them over NOS.


----------



## UntilThen

Wow while I am away, you talk about bonds, beers, tubes and retirement. 

I post this in the other thread but I need to show it here.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> If only... I still had my quad of WE's that would have seen me off in retirement to the Cayman islands for good, away from all this. Now all I've got are these GE's which will never increase in value... maybe if I sell them and buy back when they have dropped I could make a killing 😋.


With those GEs, you _might_ be able to afford a photograph of the Isle of Wight 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> If only... I still had my quad of WE's that would have seen me off in retirement to the Cayman islands for good, away from all this. Now all I've got are these GE's which will never increase in value... maybe if I sell them and buy back when they have dropped I could make a killing 😋.


The only ‘shorts’ where the GEs do their stuff is in the amp…🤣😳🤣…


----------



## UntilThen

I've been using my speakers with Odyssey for several days and now I'm on my headphones again. I was shocked to find how good the headphones sounded. It's like learning how to walk again. 

Don't you ever take walking for granted.


----------



## Velozity

So this arrived today…..🥳.  It’s so big! 😳  At least for the time being I can say I own the only Telemachus in the world, lol.  Can’t wait to fire it up in a few weeks.  Needz some toobz!


----------



## triod750

Anything goes....


----------



## Zachik

Velozity said:


> Can’t wait to fire it up in a few weeks.


WEEKS?!
I have been waiting for my custom amp for pretty much a year now, but already seriously stocked up on tubes for it... Will fire it right up when it arrives!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Velozity said:


> So this arrived today…..🥳. It’s so big! 😳 At least for the time being I can say I own the only Telemachus in the world, lol. Can’t wait to fire it up in a few weeks. Needz some toobz!



Start cheap with tubes. Get to sample what Telemachus sounds like with your headphones and speakers. The price you paid for is a steal. Amp is literally new.


----------



## bcowen

Velozity said:


> So this arrived today…..🥳.  It’s so big! 😳  At least for the time being I can say I own the only Telemachus in the world, lol.  Can’t wait to fire it up in a few weeks.  Needz some toobz!


Sweet!!!!


----------



## UntilThen

2 weeks I haven't heard the GEC combo. If there is a tone I can retired from this hobby fully satisfied, it would be this in Odyssey. Pitch and tone perfect. I am content now. Just enjoy the music.


----------



## Velozity

UntilThen said:


> Start cheap with tubes. Get to sample what Telemachus sounds like with your headphones and speakers. The price you paid for is a steal. Amp is literally new.




Good advice, UT.  I also picked up a pair of HE6SE from Hifiman last week specifically to see how special they can be with a hot rod amp like this.  It's been years since I've owned a planar.  They sound really good out of the GOTL when using 2399 tubes, but should sound legendary from Telemachus.  Likely going to order the Genelex 300B tonight.  I have a lot of 6J5G / L63, some enough to have reasonably matched quads so I can use a couple of adapters in the 6SN7 slots.  I also have a 5CU4 from my GOTL stash to rectify the situation, lol


----------



## UntilThen

Velozity said:


> Good advice, UT.  I also picked up a pair of HE6SE from Hifiman last week specifically to see how special they can be with a hot rod amp like this.  It's been years since I've owned a planar.  They sound really good out of the GOTL when using 2399 tubes, but should sound legendary from Telemachus.  Likely going to order the Genelex 300B tonight.  I have a lot of 6J5G / L63, some enough to have reasonably matched quads so I can use a couple of adapters in the 6SN7 slots.  I also have a 5CU4 from my GOTL stash to rectify the situation, lol



Is that the He6se or He6se V2. I pick up the latter for AUD$850 in mint condition. It's incredible what Odyssey does to it. I have a feeling Telemachus will make it more just sing.  

Don't discount Eastern Electric.   Here's an audiophile review of Linlai E-300 and Psvane ACME 300B. https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/300b-tubes/

Genalex 300b is amongst one of the favoured budget 300b tubes. It's more organic, tint of warmth. If you're looking for a more transparent 300b, the lower end Psvane probably would be the choice.

You do have a lot of choice for drivers in Telemachus. Remember the CCS are driving the power tubes. 6SN7 or equivalent just adds flavours. Then you need to consider rectifiers. Waiting on the 596 rectifier from Woo Audio to arrive. This is more for show. I hope it sounds good as well.... at half the cost of a GEC U52.


----------



## UntilThen

While I am just content to listen to music with my headphones now, my friend Leftside, send me this link https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/audeze-lcd-4-vs-lcd-5-yin-and-yang-r1105/

His friend borrowed his LCD4 and did a comparison with LCD5, including with EQ thrown in. I am going to read it carefully. It might make me like my LCD4 more... if that is possible.


----------



## Velozity

UntilThen said:


> Is that the He6se or He6se V2. I pick up the latter for AUD$850 in mint condition. It's incredible what Odyssey does to it. I have a feeling Telemachus will make it more just sing.
> 
> Don't discount Eastern Electric.   Here's an audiophile review of Linlai E-300 and Psvane ACME 300B. https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/300b-tubes/
> 
> ...



HE6SE v1.  Picked up from Hifiman direct for $650 on sale.  I'll look into the Linlai and Psvane


----------



## UntilThen

I find myself listening to Tracy Chapman's Fast Car on Roon several times with He6se V2, He1000se and LCD4.  One thing you can't deny, Tracy is a gifted musician and singer.


----------



## UntilThen

Velozity said:


> HE6SE v1.  Picked up from Hifiman direct for $650 on sale.  I'll look into the Linlai and Psvane



If you like transparent, neutral, tight, controlled sound of HiFiMan headphones like I do, then you'll be happy with the He6se. Like the Susvara, it will show if your amp is up to the task. $650 is a great price !


----------



## UntilThen

Damm Massive Attack - Angel sounds great on LCD4. It's been ages since I listen to Massive Attack. This was released in 1998 !


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> While I am just content to listen to music with my headphones now, my friend Leftside, send me this link https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/audeze-lcd-4-vs-lcd-5-yin-and-yang-r1105/
> 
> His friend borrowed his LCD4 and did a comparison with LCD5, including with EQ thrown in. I am going to read it carefully. It might make me like my LCD4 more... if that is possible.


You have to love its sound and that 200 ohm impedance…..separates the planar from the planar(e) nots….


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> 2 weeks I haven't heard the GEC combo. If there is a tone I can retired from this hobby fully satisfied, it would be this in Odyssey. Pitch and tone perfect. I am content now. Just enjoy the music.


Beautiful. What are those drivers, matt?


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> You have to love its sound and that 200 ohm impedance…..separates the planar from the planar(e) nots….



LCD4 is not my daily headphone but when I do use it, I love it ! May not hit as hard as Abyss but that's ok. I like the blossomed out bass and the tonal cosiness. It's a co-incidence that most of my headphones are planars. I can't help it if the headphones I like are planars.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Beautiful. What are those drivers, matt?



I thought all Mary Janes would know them by now Lory !   

So right in the middle is a double triode GEC A900. I am using that as driver now. This is a mighty mouse. It has great magical powers. Flanking the A2900, are the Telefunken EL11 drivers. The EL11 are not in use now but I can leave them on. I can switch between the EL11s and A2900 but I have to power off the amp first.

This one is a triple mica which is more desirable than my double mica. It's the last one left ..... but I ain't buying anymore. 
https://www.oldsound.it/en/prodotti...s-nib-6060-cv4024-m8162-b309-cv6091-7728.html


----------



## UntilThen

I've wax lyrical about the newly arrived Telefunken EL11 black straight glass. Starting from this post. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...4-4699-kt63-kt61-6v6-etc.959519/post-16958880


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> With those GEs, you _might_ be able to afford a photograph of the Isle of Wight 🤣🤣🤣


Pretty pictures is all I have left 😭🥴.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> The only ‘shorts’ where the GEs do their stuff is in the amp…🤣😳🤣…


I have fond memories of all the shorts I created while working on my amp .


----------



## baronbeehive

Velozity said:


> So this arrived today…..🥳.  It’s so big! 😳  At least for the time being I can say I own the only Telemachus in the world, lol.  Can’t wait to fire it up in a few weeks.  Needz some toobz!


Looking good from all angles 👍.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I've been using my speakers with Odyssey for several days and now I'm on my headphones again. I was shocked to find how good the headphones sounded. It's like learning how to walk again.
> 
> Don't you ever take walking for granted.


Never! Still can't believe how good it is listening to the music every evening whatever your choice of gear 👍.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Damm Massive Attack - Angel sounds great on LCD4. It's been ages since I listen to Massive Attack. This was released in 1998 !


Love it!


----------



## UntilThen

Mr Baronbeehive, this rectifier is going into Odyssey soon.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Mr Baronbeehive, this rectifier is going into Odyssey soon.


Beautiful.

How do you find those UK6SN7s?


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> How do you find those UK6SN7s?



Slap a Mullard label on it and it will sell by the bucket loads.


----------



## UntilThen

@audiargent haven't you got Odyssey yet?


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Mr Baronbeehive, this rectifier is going into Odyssey soon.


That's one nice tube!



UntilThen said:


> @audiargent haven't you got Odyssey yet?


Let's just say there's a shipping problem. Luckily, @audiargent is a patient man! Lots of delays on his amp, unfortunately!


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Slap a Mullard label on it and it will sell by the bucket loads.


That good? Thinking of getting one, eewd about a long burn in time.

No no sight of the amp as yet. Shipping company problems :/


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> That good? Thinking of getting one, eewd about a long burn in time.
> 
> No no sight of the amp as yet. Shipping company problems :/



Nah not in the category of my other better drivers but not offensive either. It's a lower cost alternative.

You live in the worst of times with shipping, with the war in Europe and Covid. It's amazing the world is still functioning and we are still enjoying Head-Fi.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> That's one nice tube!



It is Tomas. I remember asking you many times whether I could use the 596 in Odyssey. At the moment I could only use it in WA22 because I was given a 8 pins adapter. However Jack is rectifying that by sending me another 5 pins adapter  - pun intended !

In hindsight, should have gone with a octal Yamamoto socket instead of the specialised 5 pins for the rectifier slot.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> In hindsight, should have gone with a octal Yamamoto socket instead of the specialised 5 pins for the rectifier slot.


Yeah, that's just a "dummy" socket so people don't put in the wrong tubes. I can't get them anymore either so I only use normal octals now.


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> *Yeah, that's just a "dummy" socket *so people don't put in the wrong tubes. I can't get them anymore either so I only use normal octals now.


The fact you put it in @UntilThen 's amp is saying something, I just can't figure out what.  🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> The fact you put it in @UntilThen 's amp is saying something, I just can't figure out what.  🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣



You may laugh at my expense but I may also hit you with my golf sticks on the golf course.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> You may laugh at my expense but I may also hit you with my golf sticks on the golf course.


I'm just paying it forward.  😂


----------



## SonicTrance

Another Oblivion is complete!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Another Oblivion is complete!



Oblivion is very much a part of me even though I prefer Odyssey more.

I’m glad seeing others willing to try out this very unique and great sounding amp.


----------



## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> Another Oblivion is complete!


Such a good looking amp. Both modern and classic.


----------



## audiargent

Just to let you know that I am very happy with my amp.

Already good results with partially burned in JJs.

But even more impressed with the Tung-Sol 5AR4 and 6SL7GT gold pin configuration.

Going to put in the KT170s soon.

Some pictures for you:


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Just to let you know that I am very happy with my amp.



First impressions is important and I am glad you like Odyssey. It looks very good there.

I’ve rave way too much about Odyssey. Time to let you tell it from your perspective.


----------



## audiargent (May 24, 2022)

So,

I have been listening to it for just under a week.

Things were pretty good using RCA in - a respectable performance, but nothing "WOW!".

That I remembered that balanced DACs (I have a Schiit Gungnir MB Unison) perform better in this configuration. So I switched to XLR inputs.

And WOW!

Natural, good extension of highs and lows. Nothing overpowering, but present.

Sound stage and imaging is very good - again - natural - as if you are instead of the microphone.

Base presence, extension is what I noticed having switched over from Mjolnir 2 with 12AT7s.

A great improvement was noticed with switching from the JJ 6SN7 to Tung-Sol 6SL7 gold pins.

One note: this is a dual rectifier amp. It will inevitably produce hum. Tomas informed me well in advance of this and it is something I still wanted.

I run HE-6SE V2 (83.5 dB/mW), HEDDphone (87 dB/mW), SASH Trés (92 dB/mW).

With HE6-SE and Tung-Sol AR4s there is barely any hum noticeable at 8 ohms, some hum is present at 32 ohm impedance, but this does not impact on SQ - lower than the surface noise of a disk record for example. The HE-6SE needs the extra power delivered at 32 ohms. Again, extends high and low, can produce good base, which I never heard with any other amp. These headphones do crave power!

The HEDDphone, same.

The SASH Trés I run at 8 ohms and is amazing with this amp. I have never heard it perform so well. This amp renders base like nothing else.

Very happy indeed. But people with low impedance headphones beware. Listen to Tomas, I am sure he will be able to figure the best case scenario for you.

Will explore other rectifier tubes at this point like 274 B.

I also had thoughts about a 300B citadel or 300b electrostatic amp.... I hope they go away!


----------



## UntilThen

That’s a good start @audiargent. In my Odyssey I find it incredibly noiseless. I couldn’t be more pleased. Odyssey is quieter than any of the other tube amps I’ve owned, including the Studio Six.

Tubes such as Kt88 and EL34 have great bass presence and punch. This is one aspect I love about Odyssey. However what is more surprising for me is the treble and midrange presentations.


----------



## UntilThen

My 5 pins 596 rectifier adapter from WooAudio departed Tokyo today. Went all the way from New York to Tokyo and then Sydney.

I may get to try the 596 in Odyssey soon.


----------



## Velozity

Tonight I took a definitive step in my audio journey.  I have, arrived.  I have, exhaled.  I exist, in music.
This is purity...
This is beauty...
This is power...
This is premium...
This is alpha...
This is.........TELEMACHUS!


----------



## UntilThen

Velozity said:


> Tonight I took a definitive step in my audio journey.  I have, arrived.  I have, exhaled.  I exist, in music.
> This is purity...
> This is beauty...
> This is power...
> ...



And I’m jealous 😀 That is a statement amp that will make the Verite Closed sing !


----------



## audiargent (May 25, 2022)

Velozity said:


> Tonight I took a definitive step in my audio journey.  I have, arrived.  I have, exhaled.  I exist, in music.
> This is purity...
> This is beauty...
> This is power...
> ...


Wow... That is an EML 5U4G?

What headphones are you running apart from the ZMFs?

How do you find the ZMFs on it?


----------



## UntilThen

So @Velozity when you are ready, can you describe the tonality and sound characteristics of Telemachus?

Fast, slow or in between.
Warm neutral or bright.
Etc

Please expand.

😊


----------



## Velozity

audiargent said:


> Wow... That is an EML 5U4G?
> 
> What headphones are you running apart from the ZMFs?
> 
> How do you find the ZMFs on it?



Yes, EML 5U4G mesh.  I also use HE6SE when not using the ZMFs.  I find the VC seems right at home on this amp.  I wasn't sure it would be a great match but it is and I'm so happy that there is synergy.  It is so powerful that I literally had goosebumps when I leaned on the volume knob a bit.  Lindsey Stirling has never sounded better.  I'm waiting until I get a feel for the amp and tubes before going into detail about how it sounds.


----------



## Velozity

UntilThen said:


> So @Velozity when you are ready, can you describe the tonality and sound characteristics of Telemachus?
> 
> Fast, slow or in between.
> Warm neutral or bright.
> ...



Yes I definitely will.  Need more time with it as I've only listened for a couple hours.  I'd like to roll my 6J5G drivers that I'm very familar with first.  And to do that I need to finish my matching adapters.


----------



## Velozity

Here's a cool picture.  The one I posted yesterday doesn't do the amp justice to show just how big it is.  It makes my GOTL (which is a fairly stout amp by most standards) look very junior.


----------



## UntilThen (May 25, 2022)

Having dealt with Glenn and Tomas, you have a great combination there. The persplex cover is a great idea.


----------



## Velozity

A statement amp deserves statement adapters, lol.  Just finished these aluminum 6J5-to-6SN7 adapters.  Made from Hammond 1550B project boxes and sanded with 320 grit to get the finish.  I was going to use Yamamoto sockets but got impatient with Jacmusic, so went with Belton instead.  Now I can roll the drivers I'm used to from the GOTL and really evaluate these 300B tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

You’re an interesting addition to the team here !!!

For a while, I thought I was looking at a set of Telemachus mono block. 

That’s an amazing adapter you made there. Could start a business soon. 😉


----------



## OctavianH

I am really glad this Telemachus found a new home, I've seen it in the Classifieds and wondered why the first user was selling it.


----------



## SonicTrance

Velozity said:


> A statement amp deserves statement adapters, lol.  Just finished these aluminum 6J5-to-6SN7 adapters.  Made from Hammond 1550B project boxes and sanded with 320 grit to get the finish.  I was going to use Yamamoto sockets but got impatient with Jacmusic, so went with Belton instead.  Now I can roll the drivers I'm used to from the GOTL and really evaluate these 300B tubes.


Great looking adapters you built there! 👍


----------



## triod750

Velozity said:


> Here's a cool picture.  The one I posted yesterday doesn't do the amp justice to show just how big it is.  It makes my GOTL (which is a fairly stout amp by most standards) look very junior.


I like the table.


----------



## triod750

Velozity said:


> A statement amp deserves statement adapters, lol.  Just finished these aluminum 6J5-to-6SN7 adapters.  Made from Hammond 1550B project boxes and sanded with 320 grit to get the finish.  I was going to use Yamamoto sockets but got impatient with Jacmusic, so went with Belton instead.  Now I can roll the drivers I'm used to from the GOTL and really evaluate these 300B tubes.


Pretty proper adapters!


----------



## audiargent

Velozity said:


> A statement amp deserves statement adapters, lol.  Just finished these aluminum 6J5-to-6SN7 adapters.  Made from Hammond 1550B project boxes and sanded with 320 grit to get the finish.  I was going to use Yamamoto sockets but got impatient with Jacmusic, so went with Belton instead.  Now I can roll the drivers I'm used to from the GOTL and really evaluate these 300B tubes.


Beautiful adaptors... Want to start a business?

How do you find high sensitivity headphones on the Telemachus? Especially in low passages?

I can say from my amp, build quality is great, definitely a statement piece.


----------



## whirlwind

Velozity said:


> A statement amp deserves statement adapters, lol.  Just finished these aluminum 6J5-to-6SN7 adapters.  Made from Hammond 1550B project boxes and sanded with 320 grit to get the finish.  I was going to use Yamamoto sockets but got impatient with Jacmusic, so went with Belton instead.  Now I can roll the drivers I'm used to from the GOTL and really evaluate these 300B tubes.



Great looking amp and you did a great job on those adapters, they look very nice.  
I think you made the right decision with the Belton sockets, yamamoto sockets would be pretty expensive for adapters and a bit overkill.

Congrats, that should sound killer!


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Congrats, that should sound killer!



A properly build 300b amp is something. Very unique in its tone and unforgettable like Nat King Kole.

I would want my 300b to be tighter, with more leading edge bite in the tone. So most likely a replacement 300b. 😝

Again it depends on who listens to it. Some may actually prefer my 300b with it’s fuller sound and Walton bass. There’s no right or wrong. Just a very diverse group of users on head-fi.


----------



## Velozity (May 26, 2022)

audiargent said:


> Beautiful adaptors... Want to start a business?
> 
> How do you find high sensitivity headphones on the Telemachus? Especially in low passages?
> 
> I can say from my amp, build quality is great, definitely a statement piece.




No time for an adapter-building business, though I did invest in a drill press in case I wanted to make more at some point.  The VC are high sensitivity (~97db) and high impedance and I already expected to get more pronounced hum/hiss from the tube-rectified unregulated power supply.  It is certainly there with the VC and is more evident than when using the low-sensitivity power-hungry HE6SE, but in my opinion it's not distracting.  I'm already used to tube rectification in my OTL amp, and therefore it wasn't alarming.  In fact it might even be a smidge quieter than my OTL.  Nevertheless I think those that are used to a pitch black noise floor may be off-put by this.  This might not be a good first tube amp for someone used to solid state.  For those people I would definitely recommend to have it built with the SS-rectified regulated power supply.  To me the sound of the amp as-is far outweighs this low-level hum.  There is such texture and palpability to the instruments that I'm more focused on appreciating those details and enjoying and how well the "room" is rendered that I don't really hear the low hum anymore.  It's like your brain has a built in noise-cancellation for it if that makes sense.




Oh, and thanks everyone for the props and likes on my adapters!  Finished just in time for this long weekend.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> A properly build 300b amp is something. Very unique in its tone and unforgettable like Nat King Kole.
> 
> I would want my 300b to be tighter, with more leading edge bite in the tone. So most likely a replacement 300b. 😝
> 
> Again it depends on who listens to it. Some may actually prefer my 300b with it’s fuller sound and Walton bass. There’s no right or wrong. Just a very diverse group of users on head-fi.


It's hard to go back from 300B. Although I may firmly be in the 45 camp.


----------



## audiargent

Velozity said:


> No time for an adapter-building business, though I did invest in a drill press in case I wanted to make more at some point.  The VC are high sensitivity (~97db) and high impedance and I already expected to get more pronounced hum/hiss from the tube-rectified unregulated power supply.  It is certainly there with the VC and is more evident than when using the low-sensitivity power-hungry HE6SE, but in my opinion it's not distracting.  I'm already used to tube rectification in my OTL amp, and therefore it wasn't alarming.  In fact it might even be a smidge quieter than my OTL.  Nevertheless I think those that are used to a pitch black noise floor may be off-put by this.  This might not be a good first tube amp for someone used to solid state.  For those people I would definitely recommend to have it built with the SS-rectified regulated power supply.  To me the sound of the amp as-is far outweighs this low-level hum.  There is such texture and palpability to the instruments that I'm more focused on appreciating those details and enjoying and how well the "room" is rendered that I don't really hear the low hum anymore.  It's like your brain has a built in noise-cancellation for it if that makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know what you mean with regards to your brain adjusting to the hum. Having low sensitivity headphones, I needed the power.

I too appreciate the "naturalness" and presence of tube amps - in my case Odyssey.

Using the HEDDphone right now. Applied some cross feed (650 Hz, 10.0 dB) - these HEDDs need it, otherwise they sound strange - for a late night listening session to the Black Keys.

Right now on 8 ohm impedance, with 1/4 of the way, on ultralinear. SPL is engaging enough.

I noticed you need to let the amp warm up a bit, at least half an hour... Then it's heaven.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> It's hard to go back from 300B. Although I may firmly be in the 45 camp.



Don’t tempt me with another 45.  

Actually there was supposed to be  300/2a3/45 switchable amp but life needs to be simpler. Just get the amp to do one tube type.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Don’t tempt me with another 45.
> 
> Actually there was supposed to be  300/2a3/45 switchable amp but life needs to be simpler. Just get the amp to do one tube type.


You can't help yourself.

My pre employs this switchability and I'm mostly suckered into using EML Globe meshies and WE300B. 2A3 yuck.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> A properly build 300b amp is something. Very unique in its tone and unforgettable like Nat King Kole.
> 
> I would want my 300b to be tighter, with more leading edge bite in the tone. So most likely a replacement 300b. 😝
> 
> Again it depends on who listens to it. Some may actually prefer my 300b with it’s fuller sound and Walton bass. There’s no right or wrong. Just a very diverse group of users on head-fi.


You should get Tomas to build you a 300BXLS amp.  All the midrange magic and treble airiness of a traditional 300B, yet the attack and transient snap and bass slam and definition of a good pentode design.  Not sure if just sticking a 300BXLS tube in an amp designed for regular 300B's would get you there -- probably needs the higher voltage the BXLS is designed for to get the best out of it.


----------



## UntilThen

Velozity said:


> No time for an adapter-building business, though I did invest in a drill press in case I wanted to make more at some point.  The VC are high sensitivity (~97db) and high impedance and I already expected to get more pronounced hum/hiss from the tube-rectified unregulated power supply.  It is certainly there with the VC and is more evident than when using the low-sensitivity power-hungry HE6SE, but in my opinion it's not distracting.  I'm already used to tube rectification in my OTL amp, and therefore it wasn't alarming.  In fact it might even be a smidge quieter than my OTL.  Nevertheless I think those that are used to a pitch black noise floor may be off-put by this.  This might not be a good first tube amp for someone used to solid state.  For those people I would definitely recommend to have it built with the SS-rectified regulated power supply.  To me the sound of the amp as-is far outweighs this low-level hum.  There is such texture and palpability to the instruments that I'm more focused on appreciating those details and enjoying and how well the "room" is rendered that I don't really hear the low hum anymore.  It's like your brain has a built in noise-cancellation for it if that makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Succinctly put. In the tube amps that I have had, these were my experience:-

Felik Audio Euforia - a well executed amp with silence on a score of 8/10. SS rectification.

Glenn OTL amp powering 6x6bx7gt with a single 6sn7 driver. SS rectification. Love this amp but noisier than others. 7.5/10

Studio Six - tube rectification and can drive 4 full size headphones simultaneously. Very quiet. 9/10.

Oblivion - this would have been a 10 but my earlier version had a fan. 😀

Odyssey - tube rectifier and the surprised of the bunch. Not surprised really because I told Tomas I want it quiet. So despite being a powerful 
headphone amp and a speaker amp, this one is quiet enough to slot in 9/10.

Woo Audio WA22 - this one’s quiet too. Tube rectification. 8.5 to 9.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Succinctly put. In the tube amps that I have had, these were my experience:-
> 
> Felik Audio Euforia - a well executed amp with silence on a score of 8/10. SS rectification.
> 
> ...


Matt, your experience and comparative assessments of these 7 high quality tube amps is really valuable. Thanks for taking the time to share this, it will be a good reference  and resource for others, including myself if (ok, when!) I get tube amp upgraditis.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Matt, your experience and comparative assessments of these 7 high quality tube amps is really valuable. Thanks for taking the time to share this, it will be a good reference  and resource for others, including myself if (ok, when!) I get tube amp upgraditis.



Just to clarify that none of the tube amps mentioned above had less than 100% enjoyment because their noise floor are less than 10.

Just hammering in the point made by Velocity that to achieve dead silence, you have to go with a solid state amp but I know what I will be using…. whistling into the sunset…. the long and winding tube road.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Just hammering in the point made by Velocity that to achieve dead silence, you have to go with a solid state amp but I know what I will be using…. whistling into the sunset…. the long and winding tube road.


 
Yep, if one is not interested in anything other than 100% black back round 24/7......just go the SS route and be done and enjoy the music.

That being said, people who love the warmer, more euphoric tubey sound with that nice small amount of distortion will always have tubes.


----------



## triod750

whirlwind said:


> with that nice small amount of distortion


You mean 'with that overwhelming goodness', don't you?


----------



## UntilThen

He means you’re distorted Triod750  

However just listen to The Temple of the King - Rainbow and tell me if you like it more on ss or tube. 😝


----------



## triod750

Mean you mean I'm distorted


----------



## LoryWiv

triod750 said:


> Mean you mean I'm distorted


He reported you're distorted and you retorted "only purported".


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Just to clarify that none of the tube amps mentioned above had less than 100% enjoyment because their noise floor are less than 10.
> 
> Just hammering in the point made by Velocity that to achieve dead silence, you have to go with a solid state amp but I know what I will be using…. whistling into the sunset…. the long and winding tube road.


Most solid-state amps are best when they're silent.


----------



## senseitedj

bcowen said:


> Most solid-state amps are best when they're silent.



They are only useful when you are waiting for your tubes to warm-up


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Just to clarify that none of the tube amps mentioned above had less than 100% enjoyment because their noise floor are less than 10.
> 
> Just hammering in the point made by Velocity that to achieve dead silence, you have to go with a solid state amp but I know what I will be using…. whistling into the sunset…. the long and winding tube road.


…🤔…and I thought that it was the output transformers that are long and winding…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Most solid-state amps are best when they're silent FS: no trade.


FTFY [Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021].


----------



## UntilThen

For 2 weeks I was without my head-fi setup and when I listen to it today, it was short of incredible. Tube combination in Odyssey are Telefunken EL11 straight black bottle, Tung Sol 6550 and Mullard GZ34 metal base. Headphone is my favourite Hekse.


----------



## audiargent

I put the JJs on for a more relaxing listen to Jazz.

On the HEDDs right now.

They do not sound as detailed and airy as the KT170s, but I like their "rounded" comfortable sound.

I also like the blue glow!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> I put the JJs on for a more relaxing listen to Jazz.
> 
> On the HEDDs right now.
> 
> ...



The wonders of Odyssey because you've a whole range of power tubes to try. Most notable are:-

KT170
KT88

The above 2 you've already tried. Others await you:-

KT66
EL34
6550
6L6GC
807
EL12 spez
EL38, 39
EL156

There's no need to rush. You get them over a period time. There's also a question of NOS vs current production tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Every once in a while, you have the luxury for some time out to relax with music. I am just chilling out with this combo and Norah Jones.

Lovely tone texture from Odyssey and LCD4.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Every once in a while, you have the luxury for some time out to relax with music. I am just chilling out with this combo and Norah Jones.
> 
> Lovely tone texture from Odyssey and LCD4.


LCD-4 + FAW Noir Hybrid HPC = 👍👍👍


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> The wonders of Odyssey because you've a whole range of power tubes to try. Most notable are:-
> 
> KT170
> KT88
> ...


Q: if one waits loooong enough, does ‘current production’ become ‘NOS’…?🤷🏻‍♂️🤦🏻…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Q: if one waits loooong enough, does ‘current production’ become ‘NOS’…?🤷🏻‍♂️🤦🏻…



Fact is some of the current production are already aging and are not longer being produced but a Tung Sol 6550 reissue Made in Russia will never sound the same as a Tung Sol 6550 from the 60s, made in the USA.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Q: if one waits loooong enough, does ‘current production’ become ‘NOS’…?🤷🏻‍♂️🤦🏻…


Technically, that would become Old New Stock.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Technically, that would become Old New Stock.



Hahaha. ONS.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Technically, that would become Old New Stock.



Technically it's possible to listen to the same song with the same LCD4 through 3 different tube amps. A 6550, 5998, 300b variation. I have 3 headphones and 3 tube amps here with as many tube types to change. Life couldn't be better Now to go through all the genres.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Technically it's possible to listen to the same song with the same LCD4 through 3 different tube amps. A 6550, 5998, 300b variation. I have 3 headphones and 3 tube amps here with as many tube types to change. Life couldn't be better Now to go through all the genres.


And to have only _one_ pair of ears…


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Hahaha. ONS.


Is that like NFT.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> And to have only _one_ pair of ears…


That's what *I* need -- some NOS ears.  Mine are old and worn out.


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> And to have only _one_ pair of ears…



That is the most important gear you have. Make sure it's Western Electric ears or some good NOS ones.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> Is that like NFT.



Can you expand on that. Too many acronyms.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Can you expand on that. Too many acronyms.


Non Fabulous Tubes.  Like GE's, for instance.


----------



## UntilThen

When you spend the whole day listening to music, you know you're hooked on this crazy hobby. I can even understand what Bob Dylan is singing.

After a morning of listening, the WA22 with 5998 though good, just isn't keeping up with Destiny (300b) and Odyssey (GEC KT88).  The 300b amp has sheer bass weight and digs deep. Vocals are infectious. However it's Odyssey with GEC A2900 and KT88 that had me spell bound. Tomas's tuning makes it crystal clear yet with fabulous tube texture.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Every once in a while, you have the luxury for some time out to relax with music. I am just chilling out with this combo and Norah Jones.
> 
> Lovely tone texture from Odyssey and LCD4.


What Tung-Sols are those? New production?


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> What Tung-Sols are those? New production?



Those are NOS or New Old Stock Tung Sol 6550 from the 1960s Made in USA. An example would be this - https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/125343342301?hash=item1d2f0b9edd:g:zdkAAOSwX4liiWY1

This is new production which probably has seize production. They are also call reissue Made in Russia. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/264554983853?


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> When you spend the whole day listening to music, you know you're hooked on this crazy hobby. I can even understand what Bob Dylan is singing.
> 
> After a morning of listening, the WA22 with 5998 though good, just isn't keeping up with Destiny (300b) and Odyssey (GEC KT88).  The 300b amp has sheer bass weight and digs deep. Vocals are infectious. However it's Odyssey with GEC A2900 and KT88 that had me spell bound. Tomas's tuning makes it crystal clear yet with fabulous tube texture.


You need to try some WE300B and properly lose yourself.

and possibly preferably with the 1266 TC.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> You need to try some WE300B and properly lose yourself.
> 
> and possibly preferably with the 1266 TC.



All in good time Mr Paradoxper.  Getting a friend to come over with his Susvara soon. In the meantime, it's nightfall and I shall share some glow.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> All in good time Mr Paradoxper.  Getting a friend to come over with his Susvara soon. In the meantime, it's nightfall and I shall share some glow.


Fraught with indecision here. Enjoy the night! Look forward to your friends interplay!


----------



## UntilThen

A pair of WE300b for AUD$2300. That's just twice as much as my pair of GEC KT88.   

https://sonicpurity.com.au/tubes/western-electric-300b


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> A pair of WE300b for AUD$2300. That's just twice as much as my pair of GEC KT88.
> 
> https://sonicpurity.com.au/tubes/western-electric-300b


Worth every red cent. They do include a wonderful warranty that none dare match.


----------



## Velozity

paradoxper said:


> Worth every red cent. They do include a wonderful warranty that none dare match.


EML also has the 5-year warranty


----------



## Roasty

Velozity said:


> EML also has the 5-year warranty



the EML warranty process is extremely painful to go through should u ever need to use it..


----------



## paradoxper

Roasty said:


> the EML warranty process is extremely painful to go through should u ever need to use it..


Yea, you don't earn a painful reputation for nothing. WE is the only game that will genuinely see to having your back.


----------



## jonathan c

•  I have been interested for some time in 300B tubes and in h/p/a designed around 300B tubes. The EML ‘gauntlet’ / ‘Kafkaesque maze’ that some have been put through for little to no avail is _absolutely inexcusable_: especially given the price points involved.
•  If I ever take the 300B plunge, the observation above from @paradoxper rings loudly.


----------



## UntilThen

Finally after 10 months, Odyssey is complete. This motherlode 596 adapter finally arrived from New York. That's the other side of the globe from where I lived. Anyhoo I have always envisage this rectifier as the centre piece in the amp, matching silver chrome and all. 

It's not just all blinge but it actually made the tube combination of Ken Rad 6sn7gt black glass and Mullard EL34 sound great. 300b tubes have it's appeal but a good pair of EL34 is just as magical in the mids, tightening the tone compared to the more fluff and bloom of the 300b. At the end of the day, the tonal variations of different tubes is why we roll. Trust me, we're not born rolling stones but we roll because we can.


----------



## Roasty

UntilThen said:


> Finally after 10 months, Odyssey is complete. This motherlode 596 adapter finally arrived from New York. That's the other side of the globe from where I lived. Anyhoo I have always envisage this rectifier as the centre piece in the amp, matching silver chrome and all.
> 
> It's not just all blinge but it actually made the tube combination of Ken Rad 6sn7gt black glass and Mullard EL34 sound great. 300b tubes have it's appeal but a good pair of EL34 is just as magical in the mids, tightening the tone compared to the more fluff and bloom of the 300b. At the end of the day, the tonal variations of different tubes is why we roll. Trust me, we're not born rolling stones but we roll because we can.



really one of the most beautiful amps out there right now.


----------



## UntilThen

Roasty said:


> really one of the most beautiful amps out there right now.



That's a compliment coming from you who has the WA33 Elite, which I think also qualifies as one of the most beautiful amps out there. I first heard Susvara with WA33 in 2017 at the Sydney HiFi show. That was an introduction to high end head-fi. It was a magical pairing that made me raise my eyebrows. Odyssey does that to me now too and if one day I get to put the 2 amps side by side for a comparison, I would probably understand how delicious tube amps can sound.

Kudos to Jack Woo who promptly send me another 5 pins adapter for free when he found out that a 8 pins adapter was send out to me by mistake.


----------



## UntilThen

Susvara arriving today from a friend. I want to hear Susvara, He6se V2 and He1000se driven from Odyssey, Destiny and WA22.


----------



## joseph69

Looking forward to your impressions.


----------



## UntilThen

My friend also have the Cayin IHA-6. I don't have time for solid states.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> My friend also have the Cayin IHA-6. I don't have time for solid states.


I also have Cayin IHA-6 amp (_a very versatile SS amp_) I use it for comparison as a kind of reference. It is for sure less enjoyable than tube flavored sound which give some emphasis on the right spots for our ears..
It is also easier to move from one place to another than amp + tubes...


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> I also have Cayin IHA-6 amp (_a very versatile SS amp_) I use it for comparison as a kind of reference. It is for sure less enjoyable than tube flavored sound which give some emphasis on the right spots for our ears..
> It is also easier to move from one place to another than amp + tubes...



We shall see about the Cayin because in preparation for Susvara's friendly visit, I put the He6se V2 through some torture test with the behemoth 150w vintage Kenwood KA-3300D. Have you been to an IMAX cinema? The screen is huge and envelops your mind and you find your eye balls stretched to accommodate it all. In this case it's my ears trying to do all that.

Surprisingly, Odyssey went toe to toe with the Kenwood but He6se drivers survived and live for yet another day.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Susvara arriving today from a friend. I want to hear Susvara, He6se V2 and He1000se driven from Odyssey, Destiny and WA22.


Keep us updated. This is right up my alley 😉


----------



## UntilThen

joseph69 said:


> Looking forward to your impressions.





audiargent said:


> Keep us updated. This is right up my alley 😉



Where do I begin because yesterday is now a memory but my subconsciousness tells me it was an amazing 4 hours. These were my recollections:-


Yggdrasil > Odyssey > Susvara is good enough for my end game.
Odyssey was only at half power when Susvara hit sonic perfections. So yup Odyssey drives Susvara as well as my 150w stereo amp but with better definition, clarity and details.
Susvara is slightly easier to drive than He6se V2. Just slightly.
Susvara is so smooth, balance and yet it rolls with any genres. 
He1000se is so alike it in some ways. The DNAs there that is for sure. He1000se is just brighter, sharper at the high frequencies and a bit more confronting and Susvara is just a smooth operator with a deeper and lower bass and it's incredible listening to vocals on it.
Experimented with 3 different cables - copper, copper/silver and silver and was surprised that I like silver on it the most. That's the generic silver cable in the picture.
Susvara is more comfortable on the head than He1000se. It's round contour sits on the face very well.


----------



## DecentLevi

leftside said:


> Here are some nice 12AX7  I think these are from the first year they were made. Extremely rare to find singles, let alone a date code matched pair. These will probably sell for over 1000 GBP:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384753415567


Interesting to see you guys rolling 12AT7 tubes. I assume you are using this 12V tube in a 6v socket with an adapter? I have such an adapter also, for my 12AV7 and I believe ECC88 too. IIRC it works by either connecting two pins together or by only using one of the two triodes.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Interesting to see you guys rolling 12AT7 tubes. I assume you are using this 12V tube in a 6v socket with an adapter? I have such an adapter also, for my 12AV7 and I believe ECC88 too. IIRC it works by either connecting two pins together or by only using one of the two triodes.



It's only 12v if you run it in series but in Odyssey, it's in parallel, so 6.3v. As it's a double triode, Odyssey needs only one tube. I've roll in 12au7, 12at7, 12ax7, 6922, 6n23p, etc. Odyssey takes it all.  

This is the adapter I use. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/202979089706?hash=item2f427f1d2a:g:7f0AAOSwUKhblNnw

This is how it looks in Odyssey and the version of GEC A2900 is my favourite 12AT7. Together with GEC KT88, it's my favourite combination and the owner of the Susvara agreed last night.


----------



## UntilThen

A pity Oblivion wasn't with me last night because I have a feeling it will drive Susvara well. A few others have told me it does.


----------



## UntilThen

I've been rolling power tubes mainly all these while but it's time to focus on drivers ! 

Somehow I kept a pair of Russian quality 6N23P tubes. Equivalent to the E88CC / 6DJ8. Military equipment. Made by Voskhod plant (Rocket logo). These were left over from my days with GOTL. 6N23p is 6922 equivalent and has a dynamic and punchy tone. 

I smile when I see one single 6N23p drives the GEC KT66 in Odyssey to astonishing power. How Tomas did this I don't know. All these small tubes sound lovely in Odyssey and are very quiet.


----------



## jonathan c

[The Voshkod 6N23P are quite nice in the Woo WA2 / Woo WA3…]


----------



## DecentLevi

That Voskhod 6N23P authentic holy grail version is the one I have, as a pair, and the correct adapters for that and the 12-volt miniatures also. Does the GEC A2900 still hold its own above that?


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> That Voskhod 6N23P authentic holy grail version is the one I have, as a pair, and the correct adapters for that and the 12-volt miniatures also. Does the GEC A2900 still hold its own above that?



My magnificent 7 and the GEC A2900 is Yul Brynner.   

Mullard 6201 PQ, Amperex 12ax7, Telefunken ECC801s, GEC A2900, Brimar 12au7 long black plates, Siemens ECC81, Miniwatt 6BQ7A.


----------



## UntilThen

Released in 1960, this movie made a mark on me.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Where do I begin because yesterday is now a memory but my subconsciousness tells me it was an amazing 4 hours. These were my recollections:-
> 
> 
> Yggdrasil > Odyssey > Susvara is good enough for my end game.
> ...



Very interesting impressions, the HE1000SE must be nearly worn out by now 🙂. Interesting that it stands up to the Susvara.

HiFiMan must have improved on their generic cables, when I had one of their silver cables it made my HE500 sound like a walkman, so much so that I had to order a generic copper which was a massive improvement.


----------



## OctavianH

These small 12AT7/12AX7 are great on UltraSonic amplifiers. I also play with them and I like what I hear. With the same adapter I can use AU/AT/AX in the 6SN7 slot.
Another option is the 6C4 if you have single triode slots (or via dual adapter). 6C4 is a half of a 12AU7. I had several "revelations" recently with 807, 6N7 and now with these small noval tubes (except 6C4 which has 7 pins). Here's a picture to my 12A*7 adapter to 6SN7 (left) and 6C4 to 6J5 (right):





In my particular case I prefer the higher gain tubes (6SL7, 6N7, 12AT7, 12AX7) but I am convinced the others like 6SN7, 12AU7 or 6C4 are also very nice.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Very interesting impressions, the HE1000SE must be nearly worn out by now 🙂. Interesting that it stands up to the Susvara.
> 
> HiFiMan must have improved on their generic cables, when I had one of their silver cables it made my HE500 sound like a walkman, so much so that I had to order a generic copper which was a massive improvement.



Susvara is still the better headphone. Timbre, texture is just incredible with Odyssey and I couldn't be more pleased. It's a taste of heaven with the GEC A2900 and KT88 on duty. If I wasn't convinced about Susvara before, I am now. Synergy with Odyssey is much much better than when I heard Susvara with Auris Nirvana. 

My friend who brought Susvara over agreed.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> In my particular case I prefer the higher gain tubes (6SL7, 6N7, 12AT7, 12AX7) but I am convinced the others like 6SN7, 12AU7 or 6C4 are also very nice.



Most of the time I agree but because Odyssey is so powerful, I can fall back on the lower gain tubes and the amp would still be cruising like a Rolls Royce. 

I like Woo Audio adapters. They are quality stuff and so smooth. https://wooaudio.com/accessories/various-tube-adapters

After 10 months, I still haven't completed all the possible tube combinations. It's very interesting though to know the different house sound of the different brands. GEC, Brimar, Telefunken all have their distinctive sound. I'm using Mullard 6201 PQ now. This is a very nice tube. Cost me $200 a pair and it has gold pins.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Most of the time I agree but because Odyssey is so powerful, I can fall back on the lower gain tubes and the amp would still be cruising like a Rolls Royce.


I started to appreciate more these high gain tubes when I started to use D8000 and later D8000 Pro headphones. With Verite I preferred maybe lower gain tubes.

I guess a good test would be for me to try my T1.2 600 Ohm with 6SL7 or 12AX7. I have never done that and since I've refurbished my headphone with a genuine leather headband and new earpads it looks brand new. Too bad I never got to use it since then. With 6SN7 it lacked energy on my amplifier, not sure if power or other factor was the problem. But T1.2 is stored somewhere and I enjoy so much these D8000 Pro with A2900 and 12E1. No energy to change something, just music.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I enjoy so much these D8000 Pro with A2900 and 12E1.



Glad you're loving the full GEC combination because I just can't get enough of GEC A2900 and GEC KT88. Last night session with Susvara is just so telling. I've not heard midrange so smooth and palatable.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Glad you're loving the full GEC combination because I just can't get enough of GEC A2900 and GEC KT88. Last night session with Susvara is just so telling. I've not heard midrange so smooth and palatable.


I will receive soon a quad of Genalex KT88 triple O-getters so I will soon be able to try your combo. I am looking forward... to the tracking link...


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I will receive soon a quad of Genalex KT88 triple O-getters so I will soon be able to try your combo. I am looking forward... to the tracking link...



A quad of Genalex KT88 and I thought I was lavish.   Look forward to your impressions of it.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> A quad of Genalex KT88 and I thought I was lavish.   Look forward to your impressions of it.


Well, they were not tested and might have problems, but the price was good. I hope I'll recover 2 of them to play with, if all 4 work I am in heaven.


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> These small 12AT7/12AX7 are great on UltraSonic amplifiers. I also play with them and I like what I hear. With the same adapter I can use AU/AT/AX in the 6SN7 slot.
> Another option is the 6C4 if you have single triode slots (or via dual adapter). 6C4 is a half of a 12AU7. I had several "revelations" recently with 807, 6N7 and now with these small noval tubes (except 6C4 which has 7 pins). Here's a picture to my 12A*7 adapter to 6SN7 (left) and 6C4 to 6J5 (right):
> 
> 
> ...


I like the 6C4's.  Brimars and Lansdale (labeled) ones are my faves.


----------



## triod750

bcowen said:


> I like the 6C4's.  Brimars and Lansdale (labeled) ones are my faves.


Have you compared these to KB/Z Hammersmith? If so - what is the difference?


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Well, they were not tested and might have problems, but the price was good. I hope I'll recover 2 of them to play with, if all 4 work I am in heaven.



I like the GEC KT66 too. This is the european version of the RCA 6L6 and were produced for power amplifiers.


----------



## OctavianH

Excellent remark Mr. Owen. I have a pair of those "green marked" tubes. I will try them soon. Good that I obtained a pair which is appreciated, I have to admit I was a total noob when I bought them, but it seems I made a good choice.


----------



## bcowen

triod750 said:


> Have you compared these to KB/Z Hammersmith? If so - what is the difference?


Nope, don't have any Hammersmith.  Have some Amperex and some GE's (they were $5 for the pair ) but nothing beyond those.


----------



## triod750

When I bought my KB/Z pair, I was given a pair of RCA JAN 6C4 for free. The seller told me they looked exactly the same inside. I eventually read that a lot of the JAN 6C4 were sourced from Europe so I have used these RCA JAN 6C4 lately and to my amazement they make my GE 6BX7GT go from boring to quite listenable. Maybe this duo/quad is adapting to being used and I am adapting to how they sound. 

I also like CV133 KB/H. H for Hivac.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> A pity Oblivion wasn't with me last night because I have a feeling it will drive Susvara well. A few others have told me it does.


How does it compare with the HE-6SE? Is it night and day?

I find the HE-6SE hold their own with the HEDDphone... But have not compared with more expensive headphones.


----------



## audiargent

My favourite combination on tubes...

Did not notice much on rolling rectifiers, except a bit less hum, so I kept the larger JJ 5U4GBs.

The difference between JJ 6SN7 and Tung-Sol 6SN7s is striking. Better sound-stage, layering, presence of base, and I think detail.

Between the power tubes, things are a bit hard to weed out... Tighter base, better staging and imaging I think.


----------



## audiargent

My view right now!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> How does it compare with the HE-6SE? Is it night and day?
> 
> I find the HE-6SE hold their own with the HEDDphone... But have not compared with more expensive headphones.



I would rank them as 1) Susvara 2) He1000se 3) He6se V2.

Level of details is telling on the first 2 headphones but Susvara has poise and smoothness. He6se V2 is more bass pronounced and raw. Susvara is the best sounding headphone I've tried and hearing it off Odyssey is incredible. I was sorry to see it go at the end of the day.


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks for the pictures @audiargent. I would recommend a pair of GEC KT66 or Mullard EL34 xf2 pronto.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> How does it compare with the HE-6SE? Is it night and day?



Tonally He1000se is closer to Susvara than He6se is to Susvara. 

Chronologically, these HiFiman appear in this order - He6se, Susvara, He1000se. Yes He1000se was made after Susvara.

However there is one more hill I want to climb. I want to hear Abyss 1266 TC from Odyssey. The latter part of 2022 and 2023 will see a headphone revamp for me.


----------



## DecentLevi

UntilThen said:


> My magnificent 7 and the GEC A2900 is Yul Brynner.
> 
> Mullard 6201 PQ, Amperex 12ax7, Telefunken ECC801s, GEC A2900, Brimar 12au7 long black plates, Siemens ECC81, Miniwatt 6BQ7A.


By Yul Brynner, I'm assuming you mean the GEC is the best or the most colored sound? I'm not familiar with him, but it looks like he was a director and singer.
... and how about your 2nd favorite?


----------



## DecentLevi

OctavianH said:


> These small 12AT7/12AX7 are great on UltraSonic amplifiers. I also play with them and I like what I hear. With the same adapter I can use AU/AT/AX in the 6SN7 slot.
> Another option is the 6C4 if you have single triode slots (or via dual adapter). 6C4 is a half of a 12AU7. I had several "revelations" recently with 807, 6N7 and now with these small noval tubes (except 6C4 which has 7 pins). Here's a picture to my 12A*7 adapter to 6SN7 (left) and 6C4 to 6J5 (right):
> 
> 
> ...


I like the idea. Often two single triode tubes can yield better sound than a single double triode tube. I'd gather I could use a separate 6C4 on each of my two 6J5 sockets (with adapters), right? I imagine that may have a clean and dynamic sound, but who knows how it would stack up against all the good 6J5 and 6C5's out there.


----------



## bcowen

DecentLevi said:


> By *Yul Brynner,* I'm assuming you mean the GEC is the best or the most colored sound? I'm not familiar with him, but it looks like he was a director and singer.
> ... and how about your 2nd favorite?


He was an actor, mostly.  

From Westworld, which was ahead of its time when it was released:


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 5, 2022)

Yul Brynner is the leader of the Seven. He's the bald headed one.   The one on the left. Next to him is Steve Mcqueen.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> ... and how about your 2nd favorite?



That would be the Telefunken ECC801s but it also depends on which power tube it pairs with. Getting the right blend is important for that perfect coffee !!!


----------



## UntilThen

I just ordered a Footscray. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/274128808004

If it's not good, I know who to blame.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I just ordered a Footscray. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/274128808004
> 
> If it's not good, I know who to blame.


Well it's the best driver tube in my amp.. but I think it was bcowen who first brought it up.. for the purposes of blame 😜.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> He was an actor, mostly.
> 
> From Westworld, which was ahead of its time when it was released:


I watched that film for the first time only recently, quite strange I thought 🤠.


----------



## OctavianH

Westworld S04 should arrive in June. Good to know.


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> Westworld S04 should arrive in June. Good to know.


I didn't know that, looks cool!


----------



## OctavianH

I like a lot these SF series, just finished Severance and Halo. Both nice, if you like these. Currently watching Night Sky.


----------



## UntilThen

I watch Halo with my tube amp and it's halographic.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I just ordered a Footscray. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/274128808004
> 
> If it's not good, I know who to blame.


If you don't like it, I'll buy it from you.  And that's a great price for those from Langrex.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> If you don't like it, I'll buy it from you.  And that's a great price for those from Langrex.



It's in the company of some very esteem drivers. I'm presently using Amperex 12ax7. Such a beautiful tone driving Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 double O getters. He1000se is the perfect headphone to appreciate these tubes. Amazing clarity with a touch of tube sweetness. 

I await the arrival of the Footscray. Should be here in 10 days time.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> If you don't like it, I'll buy it from you.  And that's a great price for those from Langrex.


Yep it is. The great thing for me I only need one of those anyway.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> It's in the company of some very esteem drivers. I'm presently using Amperex 12ax7. Such a beautiful tone driving Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 double O getters. He1000se is the perfect headphone to appreciate these tubes. Amazing clarity with a touch of tube sweetness.
> 
> I await the arrival of the Footscray. Should be here in 10 days time.


It's better than the Amperex.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> It's better than the Amperex.



It has to compete with the GEC A2900, TFK ECC801s and Mullard 6201 PQ which in my books are outstanding 12AT7.


----------



## triod750

Have you tried the Philips/Valvo 6201 SQ pinched waist?


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> I like a lot these SF series, just finished Severance and Halo. Both nice, if you like these. Currently watching Night Sky.


Yes I like anything like that, Vanilla Sky, Minority Report, Inception, 2001 etc etc.


----------



## baronbeehive (Jun 5, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> It has to compete with the GEC A2900, TFK ECC801s and Mullard 6201 PQ which in my books are outstanding 12AT7.


Might be tough comparison with GEC, I'm not a massive fan of Mullard.

I feel the Brimar has all the best qualities of Mullard but without the disadvantages like syrupy sound.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> Have you tried the Philips/Valvo 6201 SQ pinched waist?



Not sure it's pinched waist. I'll try to pinch it tonight. However these Mullards are made in Holland and not UK and has gold pins. My friend who sold this pair to me for $220 says it's high grade audiophile tubes.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> It's in the company of some very esteem drivers. I'm presently using Amperex 12ax7. Such a beautiful tone driving Philips Miniwatt 6CA7 double O getters. He1000se is the perfect headphone to appreciate these tubes. Amazing clarity with a touch of tube sweetness.
> 
> I await the arrival of the Footscray. Should be here in 10 days time.


Which one(s): CV4033 KB/FB or CV455 KB/FB?


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Which one(s): CV4033 KB/FB or CV455 KB/FB?



CV455 KB/FB because the CV4033 KB/FB looks like Bcowen did some DIY on it.


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Which one(s): CV4033 KB/FB or CV455 KB/FB?



And don't tell me I also need the CV4033 KB/FB. One Footscray in my life is enough.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> Not sure it's pinched waist. I'll try to pinch it tonight. However these Mullards are made in Holland and not UK and has gold pins. My friend who sold this pair to me for $220 says it's high grade audiophile tubes.


Oh no, that's the swollen waist  ! But they might sound good anyway   . Pinched waist were the early ones.


----------



## triod750

Pinched!


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Well it's the best driver tube in my amp.. but I think it was bcowen who first brought it up.. for the purposes of blame 😜.


I'm totally innocent.  It was the guys over on the Mjolnir 2 thread that started it all.  I'm only a disciple.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> And don't tell me I also need the CV4033 KB/FB. One Footscray in my life is enough.


One is never enough.  One _hundred_ would be a better start.


----------



## UntilThen

Is it just my ears but I'm hearing the smaller 9 pins tubes as sharper, with greater definition compared to the bigger 6SN7 and 6SL7. Initially I was not a fan of these small tube because they are .... small and tiny.    

Well over time, that perception is changing. I like the cutting edge tone from these mickey mouses.


----------



## jonathan c (Jun 5, 2022)

The buck tube stops here: I was the one who got the Mjolnir II crowd all riled up with Footscrayziness !! From 4033s to 455s, halo getters to square getters, (nine)pin it on me.

Early on, vis-a-vis Brimar CV4033 KB/FB:
https://head-fi.org/threads/schiit-Mjolnir-2-listening-impressions.778250/post-16379150


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> The buck tube stops here: I was the one who got the Mjolnir II crowd all riled up with Footscrayziness !! From 4033s to 455s, halo getters to square getters, (nine)pin it on me.
> 
> Early on, vis-a-vis Brimar CV4033 KB/FB:
> https://head-fi.org/threads/schiit-Mjolnir-2-listening-impressions.778250/post-16379150


So you're the guilty one, huh? I strode into that thread mid-discussion on these and didn't look further back.  I suppose we need a "copyright jonathan c" then.    

Seriously, really nice find on those.  So many tubes get hyped up and don't really deserve it (IMO), but these Footscrays *do* deserve it.


----------



## jonathan c (Jun 5, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Is it just my ears but I'm hearing the smaller 9 pins tubes as sharper, with greater definition compared to the bigger 6SN7 and 6SL7. Initially I was not a fan of these small tube because they are .... small and tiny.
> 
> Well over time, that perception is changing. I like the cutting edge tone from these mickey mouses.


•  That is fascinating. With the 1st Generation Woo WA6 for which the driver tubes/sockets are ‘6DE7’, I can use 6SN7s via Woo Audio adapters or 12A#7s via ‘xulingmrs’ adapters from EBay.
•   I _much prefer_ the RFT ECC81 foil getter / Brimar CV455 KB/FB to such hallowed tubes as the CBS/Hytron 5692 (brown base) in the Woo WA6. To use a pugilistic analogy: a skilled 20-year old vs a skilled 40-year old in the ring…
•  Luckily and interestingly, for the Linear Tube Audio ZOTL MZ3 the choice does not arise: I use _both_ the ECC81 and the 5692 !!


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Well over time, that perception is changing. I like the cutting edge tone from these mickey mouses.


Then you will have to add *this *to your system. You have to keep up with bcowen’s vinyl transcription system. Look at by whom _*this *_is made, to boot!:


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Then you will have to add *this *to your system. You have to keep up with bcowen’s vinyl transcription system. Look at by whom _*this *_is made, to boot!:


Oh please.  That's an old picture.  I have a Shunyata Sigma V2 power cord on it now. _ Huge_ improvement.


----------



## jonathan c

And underneath that delicate mousey headshell handshell is an EMT XSD-15 moving-coil cartridge…(pure silver SUT is located remotely…)🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> The buck tube stops here: I was the one who got the Mjolnir II crowd all riled up with Footscrayziness !! From 4033s to 455s, halo getters to square getters, (nine)pin it on me.
> 
> Early on, vis-a-vis Brimar CV4033 KB/FB:
> https://head-fi.org/threads/schiit-Mjolnir-2-listening-impressions.778250/post-16379150



So the question is… which is the better foot? Cv4033 or 455? And by how much?

I don’t do things by halves so looks like I will get the other Foot as well.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> CV455 KB/FB because the CV4033 KB/FB looks like Bcowen did some DIY on it.


Man, I *wish* I could do that as well.  Pulse does a _very_ high quality job attaching the base to the flying leads of the CV4033. By the time I finished one, I'd be marveling at my handiwork up until I found out I'd crossed one of the leads and had to take it all apart again.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> So the question is… which is the better foot? Cv4033 or 455? And by how much?
> 
> I don’t do things by halves so looks like I will get the other Foot as well.


I prefer CV455 over CV4033. This _is _heuristic: margin of superiority is 15%.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> And underneath that delicate mousey headshell handshell is an EMT XSD-15 moving-coil cartridge…(pure silver SUT is located remotely…)🤣🤣🤣🤣


You know better.  I'm a Koetsu man.    

http://www.koetsuaudio.com/cartridges#/tigereye-platinum


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> I prefer CV455 over CV4033. This _is _heuristic: margin of superiority is 15%.


That's pretty subjective.  IMO, it's more like 13.7%.  🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

At least you did not say: “I’m a Stanton 681EE (minus the dust-brush) man”…😂


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> At least you did not say: “I’m a Stanton 681EE (minus the dust-brush) man”…😂


Correct.  @UntilThen is the Stanton man.


----------



## UntilThen

Are you making fun of my turntables. 

These are my 3 high end spinners.  How did I end up with 3 turntables?

Denon DP300F with Ortofon 2M Blue.



Denon Dp-47f 


Rega RP8


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Are you making fun of my turntables.
> 
> These are my 3 high end spinners.  How did I end up with 3 turntables?
> 
> ...


If you’re going to have three, at least have one that rotates counterclockwise…🤔🤪…


----------



## UntilThen

Timeless Streisand, as is the turntable gift from my wife 6 years ago. I'm just going to play LPs this afternoon.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Is it just my ears but I'm hearing the smaller 9 pins tubes as sharper, with greater definition compared to the bigger 6SN7 and 6SL7. Initially I was not a fan of these small tube because they are .... small and tiny.
> 
> Well over time, that perception is changing. I like the cutting edge tone from these mickey mouses.


They supposedly reduce extraneous noise because of the shorter pins compared to the 6SN7's. The longer pins act like aerials picking up all sorts of interference, or so they say.


----------



## baronbeehive (Jun 6, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> The buck tube stops here: I was the one who got the Mjolnir II crowd all riled up with Footscrayziness !! From 4033s to 455s, halo getters to square getters, (nine)pin it on me.
> 
> Early on, vis-a-vis Brimar CV4033 KB/FB:
> https://head-fi.org/threads/schiit-Mjolnir-2-listening-impressions.778250/post-16379150


Oh so it was you 🙂.. and I was wrongly blaming bcowen for your misdemeanours.

Seriously glad I got a Brimar back into the fold. The 6SN7 equivilents which I had a while back I can no longer afford .


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> So the question is… which is the better foot? Cv4033 or 455? And by how much?
> 
> I don’t do things by halves so looks like *I will get the other Foot* as well.


Well everyone needs 2 feet 🤣.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Are you making fun of my turntables.
> 
> These are my 3 high end spinners.  How did I end up with 3 turntables?
> 
> ...


That's 2 out of the 3 that I've got! I haven't got the live Dire Straits, the one bcowen raves over, but have heard it though.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> If you’re going to have three, at least have one that rotates *counterclockwise*…🤔🤪…


That's the one for Australians 🤣.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright enough of tubes. Never in my wildest dream did I think I will buy a Grado. Which is exactly what I will do tomorrow. Precisely a GH1 with G cushions. I've been reading that thread and there are obviously an army of Grado fans. So how will it compare with He1000se. I will find out.

Now this is the funny part. I will use Odyssey to drive the Grado. Hope I don't blow the drivers. If it's too powerful, I'll swap to WA22.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> Oh so it was you 🙂.. and I was wrongly blaming bcowen for your misdemeanours.
> 
> Seriously glad I got a Brimar back into the fold. The 6SN7 equivilents which I had a while back I can no longer afford .


I have mentioned the Linear Tube Audio MZ3. With a switch located on the left main p/c/b, I can choose between 6SN7s and 12SN7s. I have a few pairs of Sylvania (yellow print) 12SN7s. They were ~ $25 USD each versus ~ $200 USD each for CBS/Hytron/Zalytron (brown base) 5692 !!


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Alright enough of tubes. Never in my wildest dream did I think I will buy a Grado. Which is exactly what I will do tomorrow. Precisely a GH1 with G cushions. I've been reading that thread and there are obviously an army of Grado fans. So how will it compare with He1000se. I will find out.
> 
> Now this is the funny part. I will use Odyssey to drive the Grado. Hope I don't blow the drivers. If it's too powerful, I'll swap to WA22.


Welcome to Grado! I am pretty new to that fold. Nice find on the GH1 !!


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Welcome to Grado! I am pretty new to that fold. Nice find on the GH1 !!


 Pretty new my foot. A look at your signature shows you've the Grado family including the flagship.

However thanks, the GH1 is is now replaced by GH3 and 4 but it was the one that got everyone excited in 2015 when it was released.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> I have mentioned the Linear Tube Audio MZ3. With a switch located on the left main p/c/b, I can choose between 6SN7s and 12SN7s. I have a few pairs of Sylvania (yellow print) 12SN7s. They were ~ $25 USD each versus ~ $200 USD each for CBS/Hytron/Zalytron (brown base) 5692 !!


Yes right! A while ago I got some 12SN7 Tungsol BGRP's at a much reduced price cf 6SN7's. And a 6 to 12volt adapter solved that problem. I think I can beat you re: the price of the Sylvanias, I got some 12v GE round silver plates which were actually quite good for a couple of dollars... oh alright they were GE's but you can find other 12v tubes at a much reduced price cf 6SN7's.. but don't tell anyone 😃.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Pretty new my foot. A look at your signature shows you've the Grado family including the flagship.


Actually, _I act quickly - _especially when a model discontinuation is looming. ‘New’ vis-a-via time, but the due diligence is in. The five ‘Gradi’ were acquired in less than four months.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Pretty new my foot. A look at your signature shows you've the Grado family including the flagship.
> 
> However thanks, the GH1 is is now replaced by GH3 and 4 but it was the one that got everyone excited in 2015 when it was released.


The replacement is not linear. GH1 was maple, GH2 was cocobolo, GH3 & GH4 were pine.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Yes right! A while ago I got some 12SN7 Tungsol BGRP's at a much reduced price cf 6SN7's. And a 6 to 12volt adapter solved that problem. I think I can beat you re: the price of the Sylvanias, I got some 12v GE round silver plates which were actually quite good for a couple of dollars... oh alright they were GE's but you can find other 12v tubes at a much reduced price cf 6SN7's.. but don't tell anyone 😃.



I had my time with 12SN7 and 25SN7 in GOTL. Good cheap times. In fact I still have a pair of new Tung Sol 12SL7gt black glass round plates. I was going to have Odyssey made to use 12v in addition to 6v but in the end, decided to keep it simple.


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> The replacement is not linear. GH1 was maple, GH2 was cocobolo, GH3 & GH4 were pine.



So which of the GH is the best amongst Grado fans?


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> So which of the GH is the best amongst Grado fans?


I would say the cocobolo GH2.


----------



## paradoxper

jonathan c said:


> The replacement is not linear. GH1 was maple, GH2 was cocobolo, GH3 & GH4 were pine.


If you love that Grado sound, you really need to try out the Valkyria for reference timbre. It's breathtaking.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> If you love that Grado sound, you really need to try out the Valkyria for reference timbre. It's breathtaking.



and what exactly is the Valkyria other than being a supernatural female figure.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> and what exactly is the Valkyria other than being a supernatural female figure.


Kind of a bespoke manufacturer comprised of a well accomplished classical ear.
https://www.spirittorino.com/en-us/collections/headphones


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> Kind of a bespoke manufacturer comprised of a well accomplished classical ear.
> https://www.spirittorino.com/en-us/collections/headphones



Makes Susvara cheap in comparison !


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Makes Susvara cheap in comparison !


Susvara is cheaply.


----------



## LoryWiv

paradoxper said:


> Kind of a *bespoke* manufacturer comprised of a well accomplished classical ear.
> https://www.spirittorino.com/en-us/collections/headphones


At that price, for me at least, it will never *be spoke* of again.


----------



## paradoxper

LoryWiv said:


> At that price, for me at least, it will never *be spoke* of again.


Best to avoid be broke.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> Susvara is cheaply.


----------



## jonathan c

LoryWiv said:


> At that price, for me at least, it will never *be spoke* of again.


At least, if talk is cheap, thought is cheaper….🤔🤪….


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> At that price, for me at least, it will never *be spoke* of again.


ROFL!!!


----------



## jonathan c

paradoxper said:


> If you love that Grado sound, you really need to try out the Valkyria for reference timbre. It's breathtaking.


The Spirit Torino headphones do look like Pininfarina-designed ‘Gradi’ ….🤔😄…


----------



## paradoxper

jonathan c said:


> The Spirit Torino headphones do look like Pininfarina-designed ‘Gradi’ ….🤔😄…


Nhoord originally supplied Spirit Torino their drivers until they moved everything in-house. Expensive and every bit world-class-leading.


----------



## Isaacc7

jonathan c said:


> I have mentioned the Linear Tube Audio MZ3. With a switch located on the left main p/c/b, I can choose between 6SN7s and 12SN7s. I have a few pairs of Sylvania (yellow print) 12SN7s. They were ~ $25 USD each versus ~ $200 USD each for CBS/Hytron/Zalytron (brown base) 5692 !!


Yeah, the 12sn7 is the way to go these days. In addition to the Tungsol BGRP the Sylvania "Bad Boy" are also a fraction of the price. Going 12v also allows you to try 12sx7 and 2c50 as well.


----------



## DecentLevi

In the works: 
In collaboration with Tomas (@SonicTrance ), a brand new amp design has been born. I've been able to work out a new hybrid that takes my Infinity a giant step closer to UT's Odyssey. The output is now auto-biased with beefier output transformers and is has a 8-128 ohm impedance switch, along with separate speaker out, a few upgraded circuits and a few upgraded components such as Mundorf coupling capacitors. The speaker out was existing but anybody wanting the 4-position impedance switch may need some luck or a different transfo. vendor as the feature was discontinued by Sowter. 

Tomas' description:
_The input stage is grid biased with gyrator plate loads. The output tube grid is driven by source followers, "grid drivers". Then the output stage is a traditional series feed, cathode biased, stage with Sowter transformers.
Basically, your amp has Infinity input stage and Odyssey output stage._

Maybe Tomas wouldn't mind to mention in simple terms or even an analogy what makes the original Infinity vs. what is the Odyssey (poor example: parallel SET with manual cathode bias vs. old school SET amp?)


----------



## UntilThen

Congrats. An amp with Sowter OPTs and Tomas's stamp on it will be special. Mind you, it will be a heavy amp. Those Sowter irons are heavy ! Odyssey is strictly old school. Yours is a combination of new and old school. It will be interesting to hear the result. I think Telemachus is such a design too.

Odyssey will be 10 months old on the 13th June 2022. I've love it every minute. Such a unique, great sounding amp. I'm currently driving my Grado GH1 with it and it is silent !


----------



## DecentLevi (Jun 8, 2022)

BzzzzzT said:


> While I have never heard these legendary tubes and I have many tubes. I would 100% get the Altec monitors. Definitely! They have the mojo.
> 
> BTW. The Black Treasure KT88-Z tubes are really nice out of all the power tubes I have heard. I also like the clarity of the military Sylvania JAN 6l6WGB tubes.


Are you referring to these new PSvanes? And they're affordable... and I guess you still didn't get the chance to try GEC KT88s?
https://www.vivatubes.com/new-psvane-treasure-kt88-z-smoked-vacuum-tube/


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> Maybe Tomas wouldn't mind to mention in simple terms or even an analogy what makes the original Infinity vs. what is the Odyssey (poor example: parallel SET with manual cathode bias vs. old school SET amp?)


Infinity and Odyssey have very little in common. They are completely different designs. Infinity is purely a "modern" design and Odyssey is pure old school (if you don't choose a regulated power supply that is). Not sure what else to say without getting technical lol


----------



## UntilThen

For me it's all about the tone. Technology does not affect me. I happen to love the 2nd harmonic distortions that Odyssey produce. Such lovely tube tones, texture and great bass extensions. 

Just pick up a Grado headphone. The first Grado for me and what a great synergy it has with Odyssey. For 4 days, I didn't go back to He1000se. The GH1 is that good to my ears.


----------



## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> Infinity and Odyssey have very little in common. They are completely different designs. Infinity is purely a "modern" design and Odyssey is pure old school (if you don't choose a regulated power supply that is). Not sure what else to say without getting technical lol


I guess mine would be somewhere in between with regulated input tubes with mosfet followers. The output stage is "old school" though right? New fangled input old fashioned output.


----------



## SonicTrance

Isaacc7 said:


> I guess mine would be somewhere in between with regulated input tubes with mosfet followers. The output stage is "old school" though right? New fangled input old fashioned output.


Yours is purely old school except for the regulated power supply!


----------



## OctavianH

Damn we need an XLS table with all these custom amps.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Damn we need an XLS table with all these custom amps.



And we need to give them names so they become personalised.


----------



## Thaddy

Well it looks like I'm going to be joining the queue for a custom Odyssey from Tomas.  It'll have KT88's for power, 6SN7/6SL7's as drivers, and a single 5U4G for rectification.


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> Well it looks like I'm going to be joining the queue for a custom Odyssey from Tomas.  It'll have KT88's for power, 6SN7/6SL7's as drivers, and a single 5U4G for rectification.



Congrats Thaddy. Odyssey will be a good partner to your WA22 which shares the same 6SN7 / 6SL7.

Just KT88? Or EL34, KT66 etc, etc?

I find these power tubes just right for dynamics, slam and power.


----------



## Thaddy

UntilThen said:


> Congrats Thaddy. Odyssey will be a good partner to your WA22 which shares the same 6SN7 / 6SL7.
> 
> Just KT88? Or EL34, KT66 etc, etc?
> 
> I find these power tubes just right for dynamics, slam and power.


It will be more than just KT88, just waiting on Tomas to confirm. Then I’ll be able to start the search for tubes. Any recommendations you really like?


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> It will be more than just KT88, just waiting on Tomas to confirm. Then I’ll be able to start the search for tubes. Any recommendations you really like?



Just the usual suspects to start off with :-

GEC KT88
GEC KT66
Mullard EL34 double D getters brown base - https://www.tubemuseum.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MULLARD-EL34-DD-PAIR

There after if you didn't have any other power tubes, it don't really matter.


----------



## Thaddy

UntilThen said:


> Just the usual suspects to start off with :-
> 
> GEC KT88
> GEC KT66
> ...


Eesh! What’s the next tier down and a bit easier to obtain?  Although, those GEC’s don’t seem terribly difficult to find.


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> Well it looks like I'm going to be joining the queue for a custom Odyssey from Tomas.  It'll have KT88's for power, 6SN7/6SL7's as drivers, and a single 5U4G for rectification.



Thaddy, it's important to get very good output transformers for old school amps. Sowter and Lundahl are tried and tested. Isaac's forthcoming amp using that OPTs seems great too. Tomas will provide guidance on that. It was he who suggested Sowter to me when Sowter wasn't in my vocabulary. 

The build will use Mundorf S/G/O coupling caps or similar, with boutique Nichicon MUSE cathode bypass caps. I won't and have never shared underside pictures of Odyssey, respecting Tomas proprietary design but the underside point to point wiring is beautiful !


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> Eesh! What’s the next tier down and a bit easier to obtain?  Although, those GEC’s don’t seem terribly difficult to find.



GEC KT88 and GEC KT66 are still obtainable but the price keeps going up. Old Genalex KT88 Mde in UK are similar to GEC KT88 and just as desirable.  

For EL34, get either EL34 metal base, double D getters or at least double O getters xf2.

EL39 is a splendid tube to get and not too expensive compared to the others and just as top tier in SQ. 
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/265079940208

You need these adapters for EL39. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/201671202393?

@OctavianH  loves these 807 premium tubes. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/203274843956?hash=item2f541ff734:g:yFMAAOSwM65gGRkU
You need these adapters. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/190858639787?

Lastly Tung Sol 6550 from the 1960s. Example - https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/185423964993?hash=item2b2c212b41:g:ZFsAAOSwTCNifmGc
These are harder to find now, especially mint condition ones.

Well more tubes for your consideration. Telefunken EL156 and Telefunken EL12 spez. Again very hard to find and expensive tubes by now.


----------



## Thaddy

Thanks! I’ll also be sure to confirm the output transformer selection.


----------



## Thaddy

My amp will utilize Sowter output transformers and Mundorf caps.  @UntilThen, it will be similar to yours, but will utilize two triode's per channel.  I should have plenty of time to stock up on KT88's.


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> My amp will utilize Sowter output transformers and Mundorf caps.



That's as good as it gets. Sowter OPTs are serious irons.


----------



## jonathan c

Thaddy said:


> My amp will utilize Sowter output transformers and Mundorf caps.  @UntilThen, it will be similar to yours, but will utilize two triode's per channel.  I should have plenty of time to stock up on KT88's.


…assuming that @UntilThen is not hunting…🤣


----------



## Thaddy

jonathan c said:


> …assuming that @UntilThen is not hunting…🤣


I think I'll stay away from the auction sites and just got straight to my usual vendor who's helped me find some excellent tubes for my WA22.  I don't know enough about KT88 and other variants to spot the fakes from the real deal on eBay.


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> I think I'll stay away from the auction sites and just got straight to my usual vendor who's helped me find some excellent tubes for my WA22.  I don't know enough about KT88 and other variants to spot the fakes from the real deal on eBay.



Don't worry I ain't hunting for more power tubes. One pair of GEC KT88 is enough and I also bought from one seller. Almost all my tubes were from him. He has so many brand new tubes. Told me he had 8 pairs of brand new GEC KT88 in original boxes. Think he is down to 3 now which he wants to keep himself.

Btw Velozity just gave the best endorsement to Telemachus. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/2359glenn-studio.600110/post-17003280

You can be sure you'll be impressed with Odyssey. With NOS tubes, I've not heard a better sounding amp.


----------



## UntilThen

Just woke up from sleep. Then I realised that today is the 13th June 2022. Exactly 10 months since Odyssey arrived. The 13th is a special number. I had so many correspondence with Tomas during the design and build phase. There was also long waits in the build. Mostly waiting for Sowter OPTs and their stopping production of power transformers. That led to using Hammond power transformers. There was also long waits for JACMUSIC to reply re Yamamoto sockets. While waiting, I was buying tubes for Odyssey.  

What differentiates Odyssey from other tube amps I've heard is a liquid tone with very sweet extended treble, clear and hugging midrange and a bass that has weight. As an old school amp, this one has speed and is agile. Decays are nicely timed. The overall tone is irresistible.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> What differentiates Odyssey from other tube amps I've heard is a liquid tone with very sweet extended treble, clear and hugging midrange and a bass that has weight. As an old school amp, this one has speed and is agile. Decays are nicely timed. The overall tone is irresistible.


That nicely describes the difference I hear between high current 300B's and regular ones as well.  They retain all the wondrous qualities, and improve on the weaknesses (bass definition, speed, etc).  Tomas should make an amp with them.


----------



## Thaddy

I'm very interested to compare it against the WA22.  Too bad I've got to wait 6-7 months, but that's ok.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> That nicely describes the difference I hear between high current 300B's and regular ones as well.  They retain all the wondrous qualities, and improve on the weaknesses (bass definition, speed, etc).  Tomas should make an amp with them.



You will be the first customer of an Ultrasonic Studio KR Audio 300bxls amp.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> You will be the first customer of an Ultrasonic Studio KR Audio 300bxls amp.


Don't tease me.  That's mean.


----------



## UntilThen

It's the Queen's birthday holiday today. All headphones and amps / tubes are getting their workouts.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> It's the Queen's birthday holiday today. All headphones and amps / tubes are getting their workouts.


It’s their duty!


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> It's the Queen's birthday holiday today.


I did not know AUS have a queen! 👑


----------



## jonathan c

Zachik said:


> I did not know AUS have a queen! 👑


----------



## jonathan c

Zachik said:


> I did not know AUS have a queen! 👑


There _is_ a Union Jack in the corner of the Australian flag….


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> I did not know AUS have a queen! 👑



You're behind time.   

@Thaddy, the tube combination of GEC A2900 and Telefunken EL156 have just been knighted by the Queen for courage under fire. Too bad you have to buy a pair of A2900.


----------



## UntilThen

And what better song to play than 'I want to break free' by Queen. Slap on my LCD4 and that tube combination is doing some insane tones. Freddie Mercury would have approved.


----------



## Zachik

jonathan c said:


>


Can't you get your own queen?!


----------



## UntilThen

Let's not forget Freddie's performance at the 1985 Live Aid concert where 72,000 people sang with him. Radio O Ga Ga.


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> I did not know AUS have a queen! 👑


They have lots of them, actually.  🤣🤣


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> They have lots of them, actually.  🤣🤣



When Bcowen came for a visit. He's the one on the left.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> When Bcowen came for a visit. He's the one on the left.


Yeah, and it took me over an hour to get into that girdle under the dress.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> When Bcowen came for a visit. He's the one on the left.


Which one is you, @UntilThen ?  Middle or right?


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> Which one is you, @UntilThen ?  Middle or right?


He's not in that pic....he insisted on a solo photo.  I like his earrings though.


----------



## UntilThen

Dammm you guys are a distraction.   

Now to educate @Thaddy on more tubes. If GEC KT88 is the king of indirect heated power tubes, then the Philips Miniwatt double D getters brown base is the queen. Don't forget to get either the brown base or the metal base. They belong to American Express Platinum class.


----------



## UntilThen

One review of the Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base.
https://tubemaze.info/mullard-el34-metal-base/

I have 2 pairs. These are very special tubes. Everyday is a holiday with these tubes.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Yeah, and it took me over an hour to get into that girdle under the dress.


And it’s still on…that’s why there are no new bcowen pix…


----------



## UntilThen

This pair is new but what a price. 1000 pounds ! NOS tubes are a rare commodity now.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184298223123


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> It's the Queen's birthday holiday today. All headphones and amps / tubes are getting their workouts.


The Royal Command Performance 🙂.


----------



## baronbeehive

Zachik said:


> I did not know AUS have a queen! 👑


They don't... she's ours 🙂.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> And it’s still on…that’s why there are no new bcowen pix…


I don't know if that's because he really liked it... or he couldn't get that damn girdle off 🤣.


----------



## triod750

bcowen said:


> Don't tease me.  That's mean.


Meaning of your life


----------



## Thaddy (Jun 13, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Dammm you guys are a distraction.
> 
> Now to educate @Thaddy on more tubes. If GEC KT88 is the king of indirect heated power tubes, then the Philips Miniwatt double D getters brown base is the queen. Don't forget to get either the brown base or the metal base. They belong to American Express Platinum class.


I need to create a spreadsheet with all the tube options I'll have available!  I forgot the Odyssey can take advantage of adapters too.  Good thing I've got a while to source some of these.


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> I need to create a spreadsheet with all the tube options I'll have available!  I forgot the Odyssey can take advantage of adapters too.  Good thing I've got a while to source some of these.



With these tubes in Odyssey, Wa22 will not compete at all. It will be completely outclass even if Wa22 has the best tubes.

Sometimes I wonder if it's the tubes or Sowter output transformers that makes Odyssey sound so wonderful. I like to think it's both and Tomas's talent at building wonderful sounding amps. Odyssey is his first old school amp built from schematics to the finished amp. We were both as excited as ever during the build. After the initial discussion, he told me, 'Let's go all in'. There will be no constraints as to cost. I said why not. I was determined to make Odyssey my final amp.


----------



## Isaacc7

Thaddy said:


> I need to create a spreadsheet with all the tube options I'll have available!  I forgot the Odyssey can take advantage of adapters too.  Good thing I've got a while to source some of these.


Yeah. I have… many tubes and the potential combinations makes my head spin if I think about it too much. My amp will also allow me to use both 6v and 12v tubes for both input and output. That opens up even more combos.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> With these tubes in Odyssey, Wa22 will not compete at all. It will be completely outclass even if Wa22 has the best tubes.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if it's the tubes or Sowter output transformers that makes Odyssey sound so wonderful. I like to think it's both and Tomas's talent at building wonderful sounding amps. Odyssey is his first old school amp built from schematics to the finished amp. We were both as excited as ever during the build. After the initial discussion, he told me, 'Let's go all in'. There will be no constraints as to cost. I said why not. I was determined to make Odyssey my final amp.


Design, transformers, and tubes make the difference, probably in that order too. It’s why I spent so damn much on my transformers.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Yeah. I have… many tubes and the potential combinations makes my head spin if I think about it too much. My amp will also allow me to use both 6v and 12v tubes for both input and output. That opens up even more combos.



You'll need a database, not just a spreadsheet. Don't forget to have socket savers in the amp right from the beginning till a year later.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> With these tubes in Odyssey, Wa22 will not compete at all. It will be completely outclass even if Wa22 has the best tubes.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if it's the tubes or Sowter output transformers that makes Odyssey sound so wonderful. I like to think it's both and Tomas's talent at building wonderful sounding amps. Odyssey is his first old school amp built from schematics to the finished amp. We were both as excited as ever during the build. After the initial discussion, he told me, 'Let's go all in'. There will be no constraints as to cost. I said why not. I was determined to make Odyssey my final amp.


*my final amp. ?*
Just remember, if good is good, isn't better better?
It never ends...


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> *my final amp. ?*
> Just remember, if good is good, isn't better better?
> It never ends...



It could well be because I can't think of what would excite me in another amp. I've heard 300b amps. It isn't necessary better than these indirect tubes such as KT88 and EL34. It's just different. I'm using the Philips Miniwatt EL34 double D getters brown base now and I'm thinking to myself, 'My ears don't deserve these'.  They are decadently delicious. 

Besides, I'm just a suburban dad with a loving wife, 2 grown up 'kids' and a tiger cub who is a cross between a mini poodle and a cavalier king charles spaniel. I can't be chasing amps forever. 

You know why it's called Odyssey? Well according to Odyssey, Homer's epic poem, Odysseus came home and that was it. He retired drinking grape juice or wine and listen to music with Odyssey.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> It could well be because I can't think of what would excite me in another amp. I've heard 300b amps. It isn't necessary better than these indirect tubes such as KT88 and EL34. It's just different. I'm using the Philips Miniwatt EL34 double D getters brown base now and I'm thinking to myself, 'My ears don't deserve these'.  They are decadently delicious.
> 
> Besides, I'm just a suburban dad with a loving wife, 2 grown up 'kids' and a tiger cub who is a cross between a mini poodle and a cavalier king charles spaniel. I can't be chasing amps forever.
> 
> You know why it's called Odyssey? Well according to Odyssey, Homer's epic poem, Odysseus came home and that was it. He retired drinking grape juice or wine and listen to music with Odyssey.


Did someone whisper Telemachus?


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Did someone whisper Telemachus?



I will leave it to Velozity to tell the tale of Telemachus. Someone just message me expressing interest in Telemachus.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> I will leave it to Velozity to tell the tale of Telemachus. Someone just message me expressing interest in Telemachus.


“the tale of Telemachus” sounds like an off-take on a _Disraeli Gears_ track by Cream….


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> You'll need a database, not just a spreadsheet. Don't forget to have socket savers in the amp right from the beginning till a year later.


Right, I remember you mentioning the socket savers before. Most of the output tubes I’ll be using need adapters anyway. Have you noticed the same problems with the input tubes?

And yeah, keeping track of tube combos and their sounds is going to require some serious organization on my part. Unfortunately that’s not a strong suit with me lol


----------



## mordy

Isaacc7 said:


> Right, I remember you mentioning the socket savers before. Most of the output tubes I’ll be using need adapters anyway. Have you noticed the same problems with the input tubes?
> 
> And yeah, keeping track of tube combos and their sounds is going to require some serious organization on my part. Unfortunately that’s not a strong suit with me lol


I just jot down in a little notebook which combinations I like with the date. But I can only remember the one I am presently using lol...'cause I can look at the tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> “the tale of Telemachus” sounds like an off-take on a _Disraeli Gears_ track by Cream….



My favourite is Badge, where George Harrison appeared.


----------



## LoryWiv

mordy said:


> I just jot down in a little notebook which combinations I like with the date. But I can only remember the one I am presently using lol...'cause I can look at the tubes.


@Isaacc7 I like to take photographs of the most enjoyable combinations and title them with the tube types and date.


----------



## Isaacc7

Let's see, for input tubes I have 6f8g (Raytheon, RCA, Sylvania, NU, Ken Rad), 6/12sn7 (Sylvania tall and short, w, RCA, 7n7 tall and short, 14n7, Tungsol BGRP, 12sx7), 2c50, 6sl7 (Sylvania Jan and w, RCA, 7f7), Tungsol BGRP 6c8g, Bl63, 12j5gt (Sylvania, Tungsol), and ecc31.

For output tubes I have 6k6gt (RCA, Sylvania, Tungsol), 6f6 (Ken Rad, RCA), 6v6gt (Jan 7c5, Sylvania old and new, Ken Rad, 14c5), 807 (Sylvania, Russian, Cossor, Mullard), 6aq5 (Mullard, Telefunken, Microwatt), 6ar6, El38, e3375, 12av5, n34, new GL KT66, New Tungsol 7581a, 6gb6 (Philips, Sylvania, "Japanese"), 5b/254m, GU50, and Matsushita el34. 

That's a lot of combos... And that doesn't include the 6/12sn7 and 6/12j5 my preamp uses. I am on the hunt for a good price on some tt22. Almost bought some tt21 for $150 but I need 4 of them so it adds up quickly. Other than that I think I'm probably done buying tubes for  while. I'm not going to buy vintage kt66, kt88, el34, or Telefunken output tubes. The prices have just gotten to much for me. Besides, if I can't find good combos with my piles of tubes I should probably just sell the whole lot and take up some other hobby lol.


----------



## UntilThen

I finally bought a Susvara for Odyssey. When will this crazy hobby end?


----------



## UntilThen

My next purchase is this. https://audioconnection.com.au/products/sennheiser-he-1

but I need donations.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> My favourite is Badge, where George Harrison appeared.


Yep, agree!


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> “the tale of Telemachus” sounds like an off-take on a _Disraeli Gears_ track by Cream….


You might be thinking of Tales Of Brave Ulysses? That track appeared on Wheels of Fire, probably my fav Cream album.


----------



## baronbeehive (Jun 14, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> That's a lot of combos... And that doesn't include the 6/12sn7 and 6/12j5 my preamp uses. I am on the hunt for a good price on some tt22. Almost bought some tt21 for $150 but I need 4 of them so it adds up quickly. Other than that *I think I'm probably done buying tubes for  while*. I'm not going to buy vintage kt66, kt88, el34, or Telefunken output tubes. The prices have just gotten to much for me. Besides, if I can't find good combos with my piles of tubes I should probably just sell the whole lot and take up some other hobby lol.


Ha... where have I heard that before 🙂.

Thank god my amp doesn't use KT66 or KT88! You have some great tubes in your collection there.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> My next purchase is this. https://audioconnection.com.au/products/sennheiser-he-1
> 
> but I need donations.


Haha! I notice there are no reviews yet... you could be the first 😀.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Thank god my amp doesn't use KT66 or KT88!



/facepalm. You're missing much. KT stands for King of Tubes.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> My next purchase is this. https://audioconnection.com.au/products/sennheiser-he-1
> 
> but I need donations.


I'll forego my caddy salary for the next 6 months.  I know that's only a $29 (USD) donation, but every little bit helps, right?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I'll forego my caddy salary for the next 6 months.  I know that's only a $29 (USD) donation, but every little bit helps, right?



What will I do without you. I am short of exactly 29 US dollars. Now do me one more favour. Deliver Susvara to me real quick.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

One battle that destined to happen


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> You might be thinking of Tales Of Brave Ulysses? That track appeared on Wheels of Fire, probably my fav Cream album.


Indeed…the original is on _Disraeli Gears._


----------



## TheMiddleSky

One thing that I just realised today, Oblivion is actually a quite amp. The unit I tried has the 6.3mm output. I plugged 64 Audio U12t there (13 ohm, 108dB sensitivity), and it's simply quite. No noticeable noise floor, even when song was not played, definitely impressive.

While with Cayin HA300 Mk2, ehm, forget about IEM, it produce annoying hissing on background when pair with HD800s (Impedance Out at High as recommended)


----------



## triod750

A little something about Susvara, T1.2 and HEDD...
https://www.hificritic.com/uploads/...tech_feature__by_keith_howard_for_hificri.pdf
From this https://www.hificritic.com/current-issue-excerpts.html
From start but not to finish...


----------



## xfusion

TheMiddleSky said:


> One battle that destined to happen


Waow... care to share some impressions of this comparison? That DCS is a killer and I am curious which amp can represent the Bartok sound better.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> Indeed…the original is on _Disraeli Gears._


Dammit... you're right, for some reason I was confusing it with Deserted Cities of the Heart!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> What will I do without you. I am short of exactly 29 US dollars. Now do me one more favour. Deliver Susvara to me real quick.


What!! You have the other $84,971 IN YOUR POSSESSION as we speak 😄.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> One thing that I just realised today, Oblivion is actually a quite amp. The unit I tried has the 6.3mm output. I plugged 64 Audio U12t there (13 ohm, 108dB sensitivity), and it's simply quite. No noticeable noise floor, even when song was not played, definitely impressive.
> 
> While with Cayin HA300 Mk2, ehm, forget about IEM, it produce annoying hissing on background when pair with HD800s (Impedance Out at High as recommended)



I listened intently for noise in Oblivion but I don't hear any. So I gave up and started listening to music.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> A little something about Susvara, T1.2 and HEDD...
> https://www.hificritic.com/uploads/...tech_feature__by_keith_howard_for_hificri.pdf
> From this https://www.hificritic.com/current-issue-excerpts.html
> From start but not to finish...



First of all, I don't listen at 120 dB. My ears would not forgive me if I did that. Secondly Odyssey was created to drive Susvara. Looking back at my correspondence with Tomas, that is one of my criteria. Tomas assured me that Odyssey will drive Susvara with headroom to spare. When I listened to the combination 2 weeks ago, I knew and am convinced that Odyssey drives Susvara better than my speaker amp. Hence I bought this suspicious looking headphone.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> One battle that destined to happen



I'm all ears to hear out this battle.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> First of all, I don't listen at 120 dB. My ears would not forgive me if I did that. Secondly Odyssey was created to drive Susvara. Looking back at my correspondence with Tomas, that is one of my criteria. Tomas assured me that Odyssey will drive Susvara with headroom to spare. When I listened to the combination 2 weeks ago, I knew and am convinced that Odyssey drives Susvara better than my speaker amp. Hence I bought this suspicious looking headphone.


I think the writer of that article is missing that Marshall Chasin is talking about very short peaks in live acoustical music (even if he mentions this). I doubt that we get this in recorded music. I suspect that this is 'cut away' and that this is one reason for recorded music to never reach the original. But some instruments have peaks that we don't realize are there and we don't register the actual sound level.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> I think the writer of that article is missing that Marshall Chasin is talking about very short peaks in live acoustical music (even if he mentions this). I doubt that we get this in recorded music. I suspect that this is 'cut away' and that this is one reason for recorded music to never reach the original. But some instruments have peaks that we don't realize are there and we don't register the actual sound level.



How many of us listen so critically? Most of the time we're going Deep Purple or Black Sabbath and we're banging our heads away.


----------



## triod750

To me, acoustical music is the reference when I evaluate amps, headphones, tubes or whatever. If I get that close to right I accept everything else with music without real reference. When that sounds awkward I blame the technicians...


----------



## UntilThen

For me it's listening to Mark Knopfler sing in his sunset years. If the hairs on my hands stands, then the setup is great !


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> For me it's listening to Mark Knopfler sing in his sunset years.* If the hairs on my hands stands, then the setup is great !*


Thanks a lot for that visual.

Not.  😵‍💫


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Thanks a lot for that visual.



What happen to your hands Bill?


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> How many of us listen so critically? Most of the time we're going Deep Purple or Black Sabbath and we're banging our heads away.


There is no critical listening of/to Marilyn Manson….⛓…


----------



## jonathan c

[ …grunt…grunt…more Captain & Tenille…]


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> [ …grunt…grunt…more Captain & Tenille…]


He has let himself go... UT this is what will happen with too much headphone listening 😲.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> He has let himself go... UT this is what will happen with too much headphone listening 😲.



Ha hahaha. Hope my hands don't become like that when Susvara comes tomorrow.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jun 15, 2022)

THIS IS *FINYSSEY*
THIS IS PURE UNADULTERATED FIDELITY
This is the hybrid between *Odyssey* and *Infinity* with sonics that are unbound to the conventional limits of audio.

This is dynamics with the heft of a boulder that has headroom to spare.
An incredibly well defined vivid, crisp, rich, sweet and distinctly hi-fi sound that presents images like I've never heard them before. Excellent image and layers that are well separated and defined yet coherent. 









Shown above with Tesla EL12 Spez + Selectron 6J5 which has since been replaced with EL39 + Fivre 6J5 and wow, at first I thought my recording had distortion but not at all, just revealing the original recording. A bit brighter but just really expansive and boundless with every descriptor you could name. Succulent with analog recordings, really.

This amp was born out of a need to upgrade my original Infinity which was built last year, which I was unable to use due a specific reason. Such reason shall remain strictly confidential, and was from one or more of the following: operational issues, tube quality or component sensitivity. Suffice it to say, I am VERY pleased this allowed a new amp to be born. This revised amp just came back from Sweden yesterday, but from my distant memory, this is a far cry from the original Infinity, just better on all fronts namely slam and better defined images and weight with totally effortless reproduction of all sounds in a pleasing yet non-fatiguing package. Although never fully burned in, the former struck me like it was waiting to grow in some way. Well I suppose now that's just what it has done!!

As outlined in _this_ post, the output stage was changed to auto bias with traditional series feed like Odyssey, now with larger Sowter transformers as well, and keeping the manual grid biased input stage of the Infinity (hence the Voltometer you see off to the side). As Matt (UT) put it, _Odyssey is strictly old school. Yours is a combination of new and old school._

The largest knob is volume and the two smaller knobs are variable impedance adjustment (position 1 speakers + line out together, position 2 - 5 are 8-128 ohm selections). These two knobs are turned simultaneously one for each R / L channel. The 2 "dummy" RCA outputs on the back are so I can later experiment with RCA damping wands (tuning stick).

Such great sound so far, and from only my low-fi temporary source setup using a iFi iDSD Black label as DAC and my standard RCA cable (with ferrite beads for improvement) since my UP-OCC single crystal silver RCA cable wouldn't fit on it. Good times ahead, as I gradually weave out a few small kinks.

PS - I'm only able to respond here occasionally due to my current work schedule.


----------



## baronbeehive

DecentLevi said:


> THIS IS *FINYSSEY*
> THIS IS PURE UNADULTERATED FIDELITY
> This is the hybrid between *Odyssey* and *Infinity* with sonics that are unbound to the conventional limits of audio.
> 
> ...


What a beautiful amp and the sound you described sounds nothing short of incredible. Glad it went well. What an interesting combination of new school and old school 👍.


----------



## UntilThen

Levi, I'm glad this has work out well and sounds like Finyssey (I like to think it's Hercules) will drive Susvara to the moon.  I have a feeling the 'a bit brighter' comes from the Sowter output transformers that is famed for it sweet extended treble. It makes the amp sound lively without fatigue. I like this characteristics in Odyssey a lot.

What is that single socket in front for? I can see you've solid state rectification. What can you comment about noise level if any.


----------



## DecentLevi

My Finyssey (name still open to suggestions???) has 3 input sockets - either dual 6J5 or single 6SN7. Noise level is actually something I'm troubleshooting.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Noise level is actually something I'm troubleshooting.



My Tesla EL12 spez are simply unusable. They hum like banshees. I toss them away immediately. Could also be drivers. I'm brutal with keeping only very well behave silent tubes. I'm allergic to noise.  

So now the tubes I have are totally silent when no music is playing. My Odyssey is incredibly quiet. It has ticked one of my required boxes.


----------



## UntilThen

Susvara is on a plane bound for Sydney. Should be with me tomorrow. This is as exciting as waiting for Odyssey's arrival. I'm rubbing my gorilla's hands with glee.


----------



## mfgillia (Jun 15, 2022)

TheMiddleSky said:


> While with *Cayin HA300 Mk2, ehm, forget about IEM, it produce annoying hissing on background when pair with HD800s* (Impedance Out at High as recommended)


Strange - mine works great so far with both IEMs and 300 ohm ZMFs - No / very low noise floor on all three impedance settings especially out of the lower power 4.4 output. Even using the higher output XLR with high impedance has been pretty silent.


----------



## TheMiddleSky (Jun 15, 2022)

mfgillia said:


> Strange - mine works great so far with both IEMs and 300 ohm ZMFs - No / very low noise floor on all three impedance settings especially out of the lower power 4.4 output. Even using the higher output XLR with high impedance has been pretty silent.



No idea about IEM, but any ZMF (Verite, Atrium, and Auteur) I plugged there also quite. That's why really surprise me when there is noise with HD800s.

If I remember correctly, ZMF Verite and HD800s while both 300 Ohm, there are 5dB difference in term of sensitivity (HD800s being easier to drive).


----------



## TheMiddleSky (Jun 15, 2022)

xfusion said:


> Waow... care to share some impressions of this comparison? That DCS is a killer and I am curious which amp can represent the Bartok sound better.



Well if transparency is the most important aspect ("Represent" Bartok sound), then oblivion is the clear winner. Overall Oblivion is clearer, harder hitting (impact/bite), more expansive soundstage through all direction, with slight more laidback vocal position.

Cayin has that 300B style, more intimate vocal, with lush and sweet tonality but narrower presentation. In a way, It's special for me because no over syrupy feeling, but still hard to compete to Oblivion in overall technicalities.

For most headphone there (Meze Elite, Audeze LCD-5, DCA Stealth, some ZMFs and Diana TC), I prefer Oblivon. Only with HD800s I prefer Cayin HA300 II (but came with noise on background).

For 300B lover, Cayin does great job. I don't think it's bad amp by any means. Oblivion just a tough kid to beat.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> Well if transparency is the most important aspect ("Represent" Bartok sound), then oblivion is the clear winner. Overall Oblivion is clearer, harder hitting (impact/bite), more expansive soundstage through all direction, with slight more laidback vocal position.
> 
> Cayin has that 300B style, more intimate vocal, with lush and sweet tonality but narrower presentation. In a way, It's special for me because no over syrupy feeling, but still hard to compete to Oblivion in overall technicalities.



Well expressed. Pretty much what I hear between Oblivion and my 300b amp. Btw I sold off Destiny, LCD4 and He6se V2 because they do not meet my standard at this stage of my audio journey. With the proceeds of the sale, I was able to buy a Susvara without spending another dime. Not bad eh?  

Don't get me wrong. I love the 300b tone but having experienced Odyssey and Oblivion, any future 300b amp will have to come from Tomas for me. His tuning and sound signature are what I am looking for in a tube amp. Dynamics, fast transients, clarity, details and soundstage. Odyssey is such a great tone. I wish more can hear it. You should hear how Susvara sound out of Odyssey.


----------



## xfusion

TheMiddleSky said:


> Well if transparency is the most important aspect ("Represent" Bartok sound), then oblivion is the clear winner. Overall Oblivion is clearer, harder hitting (impact/bite), more expansive soundstage through all direction, with slight more laidback vocal position.
> 
> Cayin has that 300B style, more intimate vocal, with lush and sweet tonality but narrower presentation. In a way, It's special for me because no over syrupy feeling, but still hard to compete to Oblivion in overall technicalities.
> 
> ...


Amazing. What a review! Thank you!


----------



## TheMiddleSky

UntilThen said:


> Well expressed. Pretty much what I hear between Oblivion and my 300b amp. Btw I sold off Destiny, LCD4 and He6se V2 because they do not meet my standard at this stage of my audio journey. With the proceeds of the sale, I was able to buy a Susvara without spending another dime. Not bad eh?
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I love the 300b tone but having experienced Odyssey and Oblivion, any future 300b amp will have to come from Tomas for me. His tuning and sound signature are what I am looking for in a tube amp. Dynamics, fast transients, clarity, details and soundstage. Odyssey is such a great tone. I wish more can hear it. You should hear how Susvara sound out of Odyssey.



To be frank I was a bit confuse when you acquired HE6se (why don't just straight to Susvara). I don't really like Hifiman headphones in general, but Susvara is terrific headphone! (Also Sundara, for the price is crazy value).



xfusion said:


> Amazing. What a review! Thank you!



Haha, Cayin HA300 MK2 still hold the position really well too. I think almost (if not all) everyone there prefer it to any other competent SS amps such Ferrum Hypsos/Oor and Burson GT/Supercharger.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> To be frank I was a bit confuse when you acquired HE6se (why don't just straight to Susvara).



Because the price of those 2 headphones are oceans apart.  I still intend to keep He1000se. Recently acquired a Grado GH1 and love it. Grado was never in my vocabulary until now. The GH1 is amazing - to my ears.


----------



## mfgillia (Jun 15, 2022)

TheMiddleSky said:


> Haha, Cayin HA300 MK2 still hold the position really well too. I think almost (if not all) everyone there prefer it to any other competent SS amps such Ferrum Hypsos/Oor and Burson GT/Supercharger.


I tend to think the Cayin fits better for those looking for a more traditional tube / 300B sound signature. 

For those looking for the best in dynamics and resolution with the lowest possible noise floor likely lean towards the higher end, class A SS amps or alternatively tube amps with solid state rectification like the Feliks Envy or perhaps something like the Oblivion, which I hear may lean closer to SS than traditional 300B tube amps.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> Haha, Cayin HA300 MK2 still hold the position really well too. I think almost (if not all) everyone there prefer it to any other competent SS amps such Ferrum Hypsos/Oor and Burson GT/Supercharger.



Everyone is going nuts about Ferrum Hypsos/Oor and Burson GT. I'm just not sold on those.

I owned a Burson Soloist 3XP with Super charger for a spell because I wanted to see how it compares to Odyssey. There's no comparison. In the end, I sold off the Burson to buy 2 pairs of tubes.  

A competent tube amp will just sound more natural and pleasing to our (or mine) ears than a solid state.


----------



## jonathan c

DecentLevi said:


> My Finyssey (name still open to suggestions???) has 3 input sockets - either dual 6J5 or single 6SN7. Noise level is actually something I'm troubleshooting.


Here we go: ‘unbound to (by?) the conventional limits of Audio’ =========>
odyssey + infinity ==
ODDITY               !!!!         🤣🤣🤔


----------



## UntilThen

mfgillia said:


> like the Feliks Envy



That is way overpriced if you ask me. I bought Elise new for $649 and Euforia for $1200. Then the price skyrocket after a few years because professional reviewers started saying nice things about them. How the price jumped to what they are now is beyond me.


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> ODDITY !!!! 🤣🤣🤔



We can't have you giving names to amps.   Though I do like Space Oddity.


----------



## mfgillia (Jun 15, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> That is way overpriced if you ask me. I bought Elise new for $649 and Euforia for $1200. Then the price skyrocket after a few years because professional reviewers started saying nice things about them. How the price jumped to what they are now is beyond me.


Have you had the opportunity to hear it and compare it to other things in the USD $4-6k price range? It is a much different design and step up in terms of power level than those cheaper Felik OTLs so curious how comparable those might be.

I haven't heard the Envy and really have no plans to seek one out but a few people I know who tend to have similar tastes to mine did hear it recently in Munich and spoke very highly of the Envy's overall technicalities.


----------



## UntilThen

I have not but at 10 grand for the Envy, that's a far fetch.

Similarly Auris Nirvana which I audition twice is priced at almost 10 grand Aussie dollars. Odyssey sound much better and is cheaper. Getting a good custom amp builder is the way to go. Munich shows just add to the cost.


----------



## jonathan c

Then one can use the Prince approach. For example, “the solid-state amp formerly known as #!%^[•]”…😡


----------



## DecentLevi

UntilThen said:


> My Tesla EL12 spez are simply unusable. They hum like banshees. I toss them away immediately. Could also be drivers. I'm brutal with keeping only very well behave silent tubes. I'm allergic to noise.
> 
> So now the tubes I have are totally silent when no music is playing. My Odyssey is incredibly quiet. It has ticked one of my required boxes.


A loud hum from tubes with top caps, especially EL12 Spez is usually indicative of a faulty connection on the top connector, it being not fully secured. OTOH, my Tesla 12 spez themselves, are dead quiet, absolutely zero noise floor as compared to several other good power tubes. I am still troubleshooting a hum that comes from the amp itself with zero tubes. I've tried everything relating to grounding, clean power, isolated power, tube swaps, etc. except for ferret chokes internally, and Faraday cages. Impedance resistor adapters to a headphone are a no-go, tried that also and it's just detrimental to all the sonic goodness I had without.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Ha hahaha. Hope my hands don't become like that when Susvara comes tomorrow.


It's not your hands you should worry about.  Lower.  😅


----------



## bcowen

DecentLevi said:


> THIS IS *FINYSSEY*
> THIS IS PURE UNADULTERATED FIDELITY
> This is the hybrid between *Odyssey* and *Infinity* with sonics that are unbound to the conventional limits of audio.
> 
> ...


Awesome, man!!


----------



## LoryWiv (Jun 15, 2022)

DecentLevi said:


> THIS IS *FINYSSEY*
> THIS IS PURE UNADULTERATED FIDELITY
> This is the hybrid between *Odyssey* and *Infinity* with sonics that are unbound to the conventional limits of audio.
> 
> ...


Congrats on a beautifil looking (and by your description) sounding amp. Also, good choice naming it "Finnysey", far better than "Odity".


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> A loud hum from tubes with top caps, especially EL12 Spez is usually indicative of a faulty connection on the top connector, it being not fully secured. OTOH, my Tesla 12 spez themselves, are dead quiet, absolutely zero noise floor as compared to several other good power tubes. I am still troubleshooting a hum that comes from the amp itself with zero tubes. I've tried everything relating to grounding, clean power, isolated power, tube swaps, etc. except for ferret chokes internally, and Faraday cages. Impedance resistor adapters to a headphone are a no-go, tried that also and it's just detrimental to all the sonic goodness I had without.



Well that doesn't sound right. Check with Tomas. I'm sure he wouldn't have send the amp out to you having hum with zero tubes.

Oh wait a minute. Do not tell me that you power on the amp with zero tubes.


----------



## jonathan c

LoryWiv said:


> Congrats on a beautifil looking (and by your description) sounding amp. Also, good choice naming it "Finnysey", far better than "Odity".


Hey, I present that!….🤣


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> It's not your hands you should worry about.  Lower.  😅



What?


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Congrats on a beautifil looking (and by your description) sounding amp. Also, good choice naming it "Finnysey", far better than "Odity".



Oh Lory, you have to spell Oddity correctly. One D less makes a world of difference in audio.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Oh Lory, you have to spell Oddity correctly. One D less makes a world of ifference in audio.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021].


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> A loud hum from tubes with top caps, especially EL12 Spez is usually indicative of a faulty connection on the top connector, it being not fully secured. OTOH, my Tesla 12 spez themselves, are dead quiet, absolutely zero noise floor as compared to several other good power tubes. I am still troubleshooting a hum that comes from the amp itself with zero tubes. I've tried everything relating to grounding, clean power, isolated power, tube swaps, etc. except for ferret chokes internally, and Faraday cages. Impedance resistor adapters to a headphone are a no-go, tried that also and it's just detrimental to all the sonic goodness I had without.


Like I said in the pm. The amp was very quiet with my tubes. It’s has to be your output tubes that are causing hum! 
How would you know your Tesla 12 spez are dead quiet in this new amp at that operating point? What amp have you tried them in before? Basically all tubes you sent me when I built your original Infinity was noisy tubes. But that amp was dead quiet with my tubes!


----------



## Zachik

DecentLevi said:


> My Finyssey (name still open to suggestions???)


I am surprised Tomas agreed to start the build before a name was given! Blasphemy


----------



## DecentLevi

SonicTrance said:


> Like I said in the pm. The amp was very quiet with my tubes. It’s has to be your output tubes that are causing hum!
> How would you know your Tesla 12 spez are dead quiet in this new amp at that operating point? What amp have you tried them in before? Basically all tubes you sent me when I built your original Infinity was noisy tubes. But that amp was dead quiet with my tubes!


The first output tubes I tried were EL38, the same pair that was quiet with two previous amps but I already heard a fairly noticeable low-pitched hum, even on low gain. Next I tried EL12 spez then EL39, both the same pairs that were quiet on the original same Infinity amp. The noise floor was virtually identical with all tubes, and without _any_ tubes at all, aside from perhaps a very nuance difference. So it can't be from my tubes, when there were none. Along with isolating mains power to only the amp and no other devices, I even tried disconnecting the RCA input and it was still the same. 

I'm not giving up though, and still have a few more tricks to try once I get back home. You had done an impeccable job with this amp, masterclass quality and it really is flawless. When the music is playing and no silences, it is downright the best sound I have heard at home. I will also try less sensitive headphones and new kt88 or el34 tubes, once I am able to.


----------



## SonicTrance

DecentLevi said:


> The first output tubes I tried were EL38, the same pair that was quiet with two previous amps but I already heard a fairly noticeable low-pitched hum, even on low gain. Next I tried EL12 spez then EL39, both the same pairs that were quiet on the original same Infinity amp. The noise floor was virtually identical with all tubes, and without _any_ tubes at all, aside from perhaps a very nuance difference. So it can't be from my tubes, when there were none. Along with isolating mains power to only the amp and no other devices, I even tried disconnecting the RCA input and it was still the same.
> 
> I'm not giving up though, and still have a few more tricks to try once I get back home. You had done an impeccable job with this amp, masterclass quality and it really is flawless. When the music is playing and no silences, it is downright the best sound I have heard at home. I will also try less sensitive headphones and new kt88 or el34 tubes, once I am able to.


You can’t compare this new design with your original Infinity. The operating points for the tubes are very different and the whole topology for the output stage is different. 
This type of traditional design will cause some background hum (not much but some with sensitive headphones) because the output impedance is higher than with my standard parafeed output. 

When I listened to your revised amp the noise floor was very small and acceptable with my sensitive LCD-XCs. So either it’s your tubes or you’re just very sensitive to background noise. 

Also, please don’t power on the amp without the output tubes in place. It’s fine without input tubes of course since you need to bias them. 

Still, I’m glad you like the new revised sound! Hook it up to some speakers!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Also, please don’t power on the amp without the output tubes in place.



That's right. I pointed that out to Levi. I'm astounded he power on the amp without power tubes in place.


----------



## mfgillia

TheMiddleSky said:


> No idea about IEM, but any ZMF (Verite, Atrium, and Auteur) I plugged there also quite. That's why really surprise me when there is noise with HD800s.
> 
> If I remember correctly, ZMF Verite and HD800s while both 300 Ohm, there are 5dB difference in term of sensitivity (HD800s being easier to drive).


Yep, it could be a combination of higher sensitivity at the higher Ohms. On the Cayin, I definitely hear more noise out of the VCs (99 dB/mW) versus the Atriums (96 dB/mW), which for all practical purposes are dead silent regardless of impedance or XLR versus 4.4. Also no noise with the much more sensitive Mest MKII CIEMs (112 dB/mW; 12.3Ω).

Have you tried the 4.4 output versus the XLRs and notice any improvement with the HD800s?


----------



## TheMiddleSky

UntilThen said:


> That is way overpriced if you ask me. I bought Elise new for $649 and Euforia for $1200. Then the price skyrocket after a few years because professional reviewers started saying nice things about them. How the price jumped to what they are now is beyond me.



Totally the exact reason i canceled my order for Euforia. Price increase is ridiculous.



mfgillia said:


> I tend to think the Cayin fits better for those looking for a more traditional tube / 300B sound signature.
> 
> For those looking for the best in dynamics and resolution with the lowest possible noise floor likely lean towards the higher end, class A SS amps or alternatively tube amps with solid state rectification like the Feliks Envy or perhaps something like the Oblivion, which I hear may lean closer to SS than traditional 300B tube amps.



Agree. I think Cayin need some tube upgrade to step up the game.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> Agree. I think Cayin need some tube upgrade to step up the game.



They all need tube upgrade to get the best out of them. Cayin 300b, Feliks Envy, Auris Nirvana, etc. All comes with stock tubes that are very average. 

My Odyssey comes with no tubes. Not that I want Tomas to supply me with any. Perhaps I'm spoilt but nothing but good NOS tubes will do for me now.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

mfgillia said:


> Yep, it could be a combination of higher sensitivity at the higher Ohms. On the Cayin, I definitely hear more noise out of the VCs (99 dB/mW) versus the Atriums (96 dB/mW), which for all practical purposes are dead silent regardless of impedance or XLR versus 4.4. Also no noise with the much more sensitive Mest MKII CIEMs (112 dB/mW; 12.3Ω).
> 
> Have you tried the 4.4 output versus the XLRs and notice any improvement with the HD800s?



HD800s belong to friend, I don't think I able to try it again anytime soon haha.


----------



## UntilThen

Brimar Footscray CV 455 arrived yesterday but I was looking out for Susvara which didn't show up. Tracking shows it's definitely coming today.

I've been listening to music for several hours now with this Footscray. It's 1:38am and I'm still listening to music.   Initial impressions are that it's as good as GEC A2900 and TFK ECC801s. For 45 pounds, I highly recommend this tube and it's recommended by Jonathan, Bcowen, Baronbeehive who I thought have gone Footscray crazy.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Brimar Footscray CV 455 arrived yesterday but I was looking out for Susvara which didn't show up. Tracking shows it's definitely coming today.
> 
> I've been listening to music for several hours now with this Footscray. It's 1:38am and I'm still listening to music.   Initial impressions are that it's as good as GEC A2900 and TFK ECC801s. For 45 pounds, I highly recommend this tube and it's recommended by Jonathan, Bcowen, Baronbeehive who I thought have gone Footscray crazy.


Haha... Footscray-zy indeed! Glad you liked it must be good if mentioned in the same company as the GEC... and you're still up at 1:38 am 🥱😴.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Brimar Footscray CV 455 arrived yesterday


How do you recognize Footscray? "KB/FB" on the glass?


----------



## baronbeehive

Zachik said:


> How do you recognize Footscray? "KB/FB" on the glass?


Yep FB denotes the Footscray factory UK.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Yep FB denotes the Footscray factory UK.



FB denotes Facebook.


----------



## triod750

What does FO/OL denote?


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> What does FO/OL denote?



Just remove '/' and you will see clearly.


----------



## UntilThen

Where the hell is Susvara. I can see on Google map, the delivery guy going everywhere but my place.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Where the hell is Susvara. I can see on Google map, the delivery guy going everywhere but my place.


Is he in the correct hemisphere?


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Is he in the correct hemisphere?



I don't know. Can never tell with Bcowen Delivery services.


----------



## UntilThen

And it's here.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I don't know. Can never tell with Bcowen Delivery services.


The Terms of Service are very clearly noted:  When it absolutely, positively has to get there eventually.  I can probably get that translated into Australian if that will help.  🤣🤣


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> The Terms of Service are very clearly noted:  When it absolutely, positively has to get there eventually.  I can probably get that translated into Australian if that will help.  🤣🤣



All's forgiven now. It's such a beautiful looking headphone. Not sure why people are complaining about the build quality. Looks rock solid to me.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> All's forgiven now. It's such a beautiful looking headphone. Not sure why people are complaining about the build quality. Looks rock solid to me.


Don’t forgive until after the first few listens…😏


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Don’t forgive until after the first few listens…😏



Susvara in Sanskrit means melodious and harmonious.   Anyway I'm listening now.


----------



## BzzzzzT

DecentLevi said:


> A loud hum from tubes with top caps, especially EL12 Spez is usually indicative of a faulty connection on the top connector, it being not fully secured. OTOH, my Tesla 12 spez themselves, are dead quiet, absolutely zero noise floor as compared to several other good power tubes. I am still troubleshooting a hum that comes from the amp itself with zero tubes. I've tried everything relating to grounding, clean power, isolated power, tube swaps, etc. except for ferret chokes internally, and Faraday cages. Impedance resistor adapters to a headphone are a no-go, tried that also and it's just detrimental to all the sonic goodness I had without.



This is very common with old tubes and is definitely not indicative of any fault. Run them for around 120 - 180 hours. At 40 - 80 hours if you notice the hum is reduced, keep running them till it subsides. Sometime this can take excess of 120 hour but generally this will result in a total or near reduction of hum. This is due to gasses inside the tube often from the plates, glass, the micas, even though they are passivated, or a small amount of gas over time that got into the tube. Heat can cause gas to liberate itself from all parts of the tube. It can also be a result of the liberation of water vapor bound in the heater insulation. The heat inside the tube will cause the getter to absorb them. This takes time and most importantly extended heating. If the tube was run hard in it's previous life this can result in excess gassing. It is totally normal for a tube to hum that is brought into operation.

Hum is a signal superimposed upon the original signal. Hum can originate from power lines. It may be at the power line frequency or any multiple of it. Leakage current between the heater and the cathode can be a source of hum. This is usually the result of a diode like action in which the heather emits electrons to the cathode during the half cycle when the heater is more negative than the cathode. It can also be from chips or cracks in the heater insulation inside the cathode sleeve or bare ends. This type of noise can change as the heater shifts in the tube or when the tube is jarred. 

Another source of hum is emission from the heater to the grid. This can also resemble heather to cathode leakage hum. 

The tube could also be picking up electrostatic or electromagnetic interference. Top cap tubes can be prone to this. The test generally for this is a strong permanent magnet. When brought near the tube the hum will either increase or decrease.

I hope this helps.


----------



## smodtactical

UntilThen said:


> All's forgiven now. It's such a beautiful looking headphone. Not sure why people are complaining about the build quality. Looks rock solid to me.



Oh you upgraded eh. Heh. They are good headphones, enjoy. Do try them on a powerful high current SS amp just to see.


----------



## UntilThen

smodtactical said:


> Oh you upgraded eh. Heh. They are good headphones, enjoy. Do try them on a powerful high current SS amp just to see.



I'll hold back on my comments until I get more hours in but I have some powerful amplifications here.


----------



## mfgillia

UntilThen said:


> I'll hold back on my comments until I get more hours in but I have some powerful amplifications here.


I know from prior comments you're 110% on Team Tubes and particularly the Odyssey, which sounds like an awesome amp with ample power to drive most anything. 

However... have a few friends who also generally love tubes but ultimately decided pairing power amps particularly Benchmark's AHB2 provided the best performance for their Susvaras. 

One crazy such person is even contemplating acquiring an additional AHB2 and then running both as monoblocks for his Susvara. Yes, that does sound insane and hopefully he has an amazing preamp to keep from blowing his eardrums into a million tiny pieces...


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I'll hold back on my comments until I get more hours in but I have some powerful amplifications here.


Don't hold back for too long... you must wrench off those Susvaras at some point and let us know, we are waiting 🤩.


----------



## UntilThen

I wheel out my WW2 Rino tank, 150w of monstrous flagship Kenwood vintage KA 3300D amp. Now Susvara is out of the head experience. Soundstage expanded top to bottom, left to right and front to back. Songs that I'm familiar with, are now presented in a new way.


----------



## UntilThen

There's Odyssey set to ultralinear mode with EL11 as drivers. 

Kenwood has the more expansive soundstage. It's almost VMAX wide. It's more relaxed and 10 row seat audition. Susvara does sound good out of speaker amp. Odyssey is more vivid, more forward, more precise and detail retrieval is better. As if Susvara need help with detail retrieval.  I'm definitely hearing things that I've not heard before, with songs I'm familiar with. Now to go back and enjoy my music more.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> There's Odyssey set to ultralinear mode with EL11 as drivers.
> 
> Kenwood has the more expansive soundstage. It's almost VMAX wide. It's more relaxed and 10 row seat audition. Susvara does sound good out of speaker amp. Odyssey is more vivid, more forward, more precise and detail retrieval is better. As if Susvara need help with detail retrieval.  I'm definitely hearing things that I've not heard before, with songs I'm familiar with. Now to go back and enjoy my music more.


Excellent!! Well thanks for tearing yourself away for a few moments, I expect that's the last we will hear from you for a while .


----------



## UntilThen

Tomorrow I will take a day trip to bring back Yggdrasil, Oblivion and HD800. I've to hear the Oblivion and Susvara combination.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> There's Odyssey set to ultralinear mode with EL11 as drivers.
> 
> Kenwood has the more expansive soundstage. It's almost VMAX wide. It's more relaxed and 10 row seat audition. Susvara does sound good out of speaker amp. Odyssey is more vivid, more forward, more precise and detail retrieval is better. As if Susvara need help with detail retrieval.  I'm definitely hearing things that I've not heard before, with songs I'm familiar with. Now to go back and enjoy my music more.


…🤔 hang the $usvara by the metal/outer band…less wear/tear…?


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> …🤔 hang the $usvara by the metal/outer band…less wear/tear…?



Too much hassle as I found out with my He1000se.


----------



## UntilThen

A quote from Steve and I agree completely. Susvara sound so natural with the volume cranked up. It almost feels like it wants to soar.

_*I noted again and again that because the Susvara's sound is so clear I tended to play it louder than other headphones. When I realized how loud it was I turned it down to safer levels.*_


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> Just remove '/' and you will see clearly.


You were supposed to do that and so you did  .


----------



## smodtactical

mfgillia said:


> I know from prior comments you're 110% on Team Tubes and particularly the Odyssey, which sounds like an awesome amp with ample power to drive most anything.
> 
> However... have a few friends who also generally love tubes but ultimately decided pairing power amps particularly Benchmark's AHB2 provided the best performance for their Susvaras.
> 
> One crazy such person is even contemplating acquiring an additional AHB2 and then running both as monoblocks for his Susvara. Yes, that does sound insane and hopefully he has an amazing preamp to keep from blowing his eardrums into a million tiny pieces...


Yup from what I've heard personally and from friends. Susvara thrives with high power SS and tubes might just not take it to its full potential.


----------



## mordy

BzzzzzT said:


> This is very common with old tubes and is definitely not indicative of any fault. Run them for around 120 - 180 hours. At 40 - 80 hours if you notice the hum is reduced, keep running them till it subsides. Sometime this can take excess of 120 hour but generally this will result in a total or near reduction of hum. This is due to gasses inside the tube often from the plates, glass, the micas, even though they are passivated, or a small amount of gas over time that got into the tube. Heat can cause gas to liberate itself from all parts of the tube. It can also be a result of the liberation of water vapor bound in the heater insulation. The heat inside the tube will cause the getter to absorb them. This takes time and most importantly extended heating. If the tube was run hard in it's previous life this can result in excess gassing. It is totally normal for a tube to hum that is brought into operation.
> 
> Hum is a signal superimposed upon the original signal. Hum can originate from power lines. It may be at the power line frequency or any multiple of it. Leakage current between the heater and the cathode can be a source of hum. This is usually the result of a diode like action in which the heather emits electrons to the cathode during the half cycle when the heater is more negative than the cathode. It can also be from chips or cracks in the heater insulation inside the cathode sleeve or bare ends. This type of noise can change as the heater shifts in the tube or when the tube is jarred.
> 
> ...


Haven't heard about the magnet test before - can you please elaborate?
I have an N52 magnet that supposedly can pick up 50lbs with a flat surface.


----------



## Capunk

I’ve forgotten how long that i ordered this amp (oblivion) but it’s now on my doorstep! excited!


----------



## TheMiddleSky

Capunk said:


> I’ve forgotten how long that i ordered this amp (oblivion) but it’s now on my doorstep! excited!



Surprise yourself by plug U12t to single ended 6.3mm output


----------



## UntilThen

smodtactical said:


> Yup from what I've heard personally and from friends. Susvara thrives with high power SS and tubes might just not take it to its full potential.



Disagree totally. You should hear Susvara through Odyssey. Not all tube amps are sloppy and slow. It's all a matter of preference. Put a AHB2 on it and it will go too neutral north. 

The same with Wa33. Lots of owners are happy with Susvara and Wa33. It's the end for them.


----------



## UntilThen

Capunk said:


> I’ve forgotten how long that i ordered this amp (oblivion) but it’s now on my doorstep! excited!



Enjoy. Let us know what you think of it. HD800 is a wonderful pairing with Oblivion.


----------



## mordy

I just looked up the price on the Susvara and got a knot in my stomach. Are they really 30 times better than my $200 HD650?


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> I just looked up the price on the Susvara and got a knot in my stomach. Are they really 30 times better than my $200 HD650?



Most people don't pay US$6000 for their Susvara. Discounts can be given. That is what I have learned. The same with Abyss 1266 TC which by the way is more expensive in my country just going by the RRP.

As for whether it's 30 times better than HD650, I don't put a number to it. My HD650 is somewhere on the shelf, untouched. This is my 2nd pair. The 1st I modded it like everyone says it will become a TOTL headphone once mod. I had to experience it for myself.


----------



## triod750

Just imagine wearing 30 HD650 on your head! One pair of Susvara has to be much better, no doubt about it.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> Just imagine wearing 30 HD650 on your head! One pair of Susvara has to be much better, no doubt about it.



That's a good point.  

It's unfortunate that Susvara and Abyss 1266 TC are so expensive but now that I've heard Susvara, I wish I had gotten one earlier instead of buying so many other gear and not using them. Like I say, I sold off Destiny, LCD4 and He6se v2 to get Susvara. 

I like LCD4 at one stage but it's increasingly not being used. The chrome and look is very nice. I even put the new Audeze pads on it. In the end it's better gone as Susvara and He1000se are my kind of tone.

Here they are.


----------



## triod750

Getting what you need is good, getting what you want can be better. But not always...


----------



## UntilThen

When you get into head-fi long enough, need and wants are no longer deciding factors governing your purchase. However I have come to the end with Yggdrasil > Odyssey > Susvara. They were all bought at different times but it's all planned.  

Now to drop the name UntilThen.


----------



## triod750

Until Telemachus?


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> Until Telemachus?



I think I have spend enough. Time to smell the roses, take the mountain walk, go on a holiday, get out my Specialised Roubaix and ride like the wind.


----------



## K3cT

I haven't posted here before but I often go to @TheMiddleSky 's place to listen to the Oblivion. I really like how it's tuned and particularly how it seems to have special synergy with planar and low impedance cans. Also it's fun to A/B the Oblivion with other amps because often it comes out as the winner. 😂

I have a question... One of the best experience I've heard from this amp was feeding it with a GS-X MK2 set in unity gain as the preamp. Is it possible to customize the Obli / Citadel from @SonicTrance without volume pot as a power amp?


----------



## SonicTrance

K3cT said:


> I have a question... One of the best experience I've heard from this amp was feeding it with a GS-X MK2 set in unity gain as the preamp. Is it possible to customize the Obli / Citadel from @SonicTrance without volume pot as a power amp?


Yes, very possible


----------



## smodtactical

mordy said:


> I just looked up the price on the Susvara and got a knot in my stomach. Are they really 30 times better than my $200 HD650?



No and in fact many people at least on our discord like HD650 more than Susvara. LOL


----------



## Isaacc7

mordy said:


> I just looked up the price on the Susvara and got a knot in my stomach. Are they really 30 times better than my $200 HD650?


Diminishing returns are a bitch. I spent 4 times what my Schitt Freya+ cost on my modded Supratek Cabernet and it is... better but certainly not 4 times better. I have the distinct feeling that I would have to spend 4x again to have a noticeable improvement but at that point I have to ask if a car's worth of money is worth a little better preamp. It isn't for me. I can't imagine spending anywhere close to what the Susvara cost on headphones, I just don't like headphones enough. 6k on speakers? Oh yeah, maybe more lol.


----------



## bcowen

smodtactical said:


> Yup from what I've heard personally and from friends. Susvara thrives with high power SS and tubes might just not take it to its full potential.


Power and tubes are not mutually exclusive.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> When you get into head-fi long enough, need and wants are no longer deciding factors governing your purchase. However I have come to the end with Yggdrasil > Odyssey > Susvara. They were all bought at different times but it's all planned.
> 
> Now to drop the name UntilThen.


Congrats. You can still roll tubes which is more fun than rolling gear in constant.


----------



## smodtactical

bcowen said:


> Power and tubes are not mutually exclusive.



Going to be tough for a tube amp to deliver current of a high power SS speaker amp. Not impossible but thats going to get ultra expensive and hot real fast.


----------



## smodtactical

Check out amplify show @Sajid Amit , he has tried many amps and settled on accuphase integrated for Sus. Im not saying that Tubes cannot pair well with Susvara... I am only saying don't close yourself off to various SS options just because you love tubes. I love tubes too... but I would be open to high quality SS (AT LEAST TO TRY).


----------



## paradoxper

smodtactical said:


> Check out amplify show @Sajid Amit , he has tried many amps and settled on accuphase integrated for Sus. Im not saying that Tubes cannot pair well with Susvara... I am only saying don't close yourself off to various SS options just because you love tubes. I love tubes too... but I would be open to high quality SS (AT LEAST TO TRY).


LOL Sajid is coming to the DHT side.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> LOL Sajid is coming to the DHT side.



That's right. People change. Sajid is loving tubes now and last I know he's also loving Utopia.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> Congrats. You can still roll tubes which is more fun than rolling gear in constant.



Except I'll be looking for other gears to sell to fund an Abyss 1266 TC.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Except I'll be looking for other gears to sell to fund an Abyss 1266 TC.


ROFL!!!!!

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/page-375#post-17011612

I guess "the end" is a subjective term?  Perhaps you should become "UntilTomorrow." 🤣🤣


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Except I'll be looking for other gears to sell to fund an Abyss 1266 TC.


One last frontier.


----------



## UntilThen

smodtactical said:


> Check out amplify show @Sajid Amit , he has tried many amps and settled on accuphase integrated for Sus. Im not saying that Tubes cannot pair well with Susvara... I am only saying don't close yourself off to various SS options just because you love tubes. I love tubes too... but I would be open to high quality SS (AT LEAST TO TRY).



What you didn't know is that Sajid enquired about Odyssey via private msg with me sometime ago. I just think he hasn't dip his toes into good tube amps .... yet.

I'm of course open to high quality SS amp. I'm just waiting for Bcowen to send one to me. One doesn't buy a Accuphase without blinking unless he's Uncle Scrooge.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> One last frontier.



and then after that a CFA3 because @paramesh likes it with Susvara and he heard from it you.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> and then after that a CFA3 because @paramesh likes it with Susvara and he heard from it you.


Haha. Paramesh, too, has issues. He wanted to pick up a maxed out CFA3 listed recently.

These are worthy pursuits to delay endgame and indulge a little bit more.


----------



## bcowen (Jun 17, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> Haha. Paramesh, too, has issues. He wanted to pick up a maxed out CFA3 listed recently.
> 
> These are worthy pursuits to delay endgame and indulge a little bit more.


With audio, "endgame" only occurs when your family inherits all your toys after you've climbed the stairway to heaven.  🤣


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> With audio, "endgame" only occurs when your family inherits all your toys after you've climbed the stairway to heaven.  🤣


You mean when they sell your junk off at the local yard sale for $10. Nods.


----------



## UntilThen

On a mission to rescue private Oblivion. I brought Lieutenant Grado along.


----------



## smodtactical

paradoxper said:


> LOL Sajid is coming to the DHT side.


Oh really?


----------



## UntilThen

K3cT said:


> I haven't posted here before but I often go to @TheMiddleSky 's place to listen to the Oblivion. I really like how it's tuned and particularly how it seems to have special synergy with planar and low impedance cans. Also it's fun to A/B the Oblivion with other amps because often it comes out as the winner. 😂
> 
> I have a question... One of the best experience I've heard from this amp was feeding it with a GS-X MK2 set in unity gain as the preamp. Is it possible to customize the Obli / Citadel from @SonicTrance without volume pot as a power amp?



How does Oblivion compare to OOR, now that you’ve heard both. 😊


----------



## K3cT

UntilThen said:


> How does Oblivion compare to OOR, now that you’ve heard both. 😊



I'd rather not say too much. The Obli sounded a lot more 3 dimensional for sure. 🙈


----------



## UntilThen

K3cT said:


> I'd rather not say too much. The Obli sounded a lot more 3 dimensional for sure. 🙈



I want the truth and nothing but the truth, so says Tom Cruise in a few good men.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Power and tubes are not mutually exclusive.


No, and other things come into the equation like linearity with increases in voltages which SS doesn't do.


----------



## baronbeehive

smodtactical said:


> Going to be tough for a tube amp to deliver current of a high power SS speaker amp. Not impossible but thats going to get ultra expensive and hot real fast.


It's  not necessarily power per se but *clean* power. A lower powered amp with clean power will outperform a  high power amp with poor negative feedback control for example.


----------



## baronbeehive

smodtactical said:


> Check out amplify show @Sajid Amit , he has tried many amps and settled on accuphase integrated for Sus. Im not saying that Tubes cannot pair well with Susvara... I am only saying don't close yourself off to various SS options just because you love tubes. I love tubes too... but I would be open to high quality SS (AT LEAST TO TRY).


It's all in the design tbh.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!!!!
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/page-375#post-17011612
> 
> I guess "the end" is a subjective term?  Perhaps you should become "UntilTomorrow." 🤣🤣


LOL... or MaybeTomorrow 😬.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> With audio, "endgame" only occurs when your family inherits all your toys after you've climbed the stairway to heaven.  🤣


Or until those reviewers out there stop their flowery reviews or pretending that the latest amp/headphones/speakers are the bees knees.


----------



## SonicTrance

@baronbeehive You know you can quote several posts in a single message? Just a tip


----------



## baronbeehive

How else do I get my post count up 😇.


----------



## UntilThen

Arrived home with Yggdrasil, Oblivion and HD800. Tired from a day's trip but I'm eager to set it up for a listen. So there they are. Yggdrasil is hooked up. So is Oblivion and Odyssey. I sat down to listen with Susvara and Oblivion. What I'm about to hear will leave me very very surprised.   

It's a full set of Tesla tubes in Oblivion.


----------



## UntilThen

As my Susvara is still being burn in, I shall not give any impressions till later. I left it to burn in with Odyssey while I listen with He1000se and Oblivion. What a combination from the latter setup. I had forgotten how good He1000se sounded through Oblivion. Having not use Oblivion for many months, gives my mind a fresh insight to how Oblivion sound. I'm not surprised there are some very favourable comments on Oblivion lately. This is a superb sounding amp without relying on expensive tubes.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> Or until those reviewers out there stop their flowery reviews or pretending that the latest amp/headphones/speakers are the bees knees.


….which then genuflect before the next queen….🐝


----------



## UntilThen

Another of those middle of the night listening session. I was very surprised at how well Oblivion drive Susvara. This amp must have constant current to supply because Susvara sounded alive and snappy. My volume knob is only at 12 noon. My impression of Oblivion and Susvara is speed and fast transients. It's an audiophile tone.  

Odyssey is quite a contrast with Oblivion. What Odyssey does to Susvara bass is bordering on indecent.  2 very different amp playing to a slowly awakening Susvara and it's magic.


----------



## UntilThen

Lights off on a wintry night, I'm in Casablanca. With both amps driving Susvara so superbly, I'm very happy to have arrived at this stage of my audio journey. It's bliss.


----------



## UntilThen

Can't decide which amp to plug Susvara into. Both Oblivion and Odyssey sound great with Susvara.


----------



## Roasty

UntilThen said:


> Can't decide which amp to plug Susvara into. Both Oblivion and Odyssey sound great with Susvara.



send them over. I'll help u decide.


----------



## UntilThen

Roasty said:


> send them over. I'll help u decide.





When I do visit the country of my birth - Singapore.


----------



## UntilThen

The best way to spend Sunday with 4 headphones and 2 tube amps... and some tube rolling if I am not mad by the time I finish swapping headphones and amps.

HD800 and Oblivion is end game territory, so is the Grado GH1 but then Susvara enters the fray and the addiction to headphone listening gets real.

Odyssey and Oblivion are just incredible with these headphones and that includes He1000se.


----------



## UntilThen

Full set of Mazda tubes for Oblivion. These were @Maxx134 favourite and are my favourite now. Tone, tone and tone. Now Susvara sound amazing out of Oblivion. I have 5 different sets of tubes for Oblivion. @xfusion come on out and roll your tubes in Oblivion.


----------



## Maxx134 (Jun 19, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Full set of Mazda tubes for Oblivion. These were @Maxx134 favourite and are my favourite now. Tone, tone and tone. Now Susvara sound amazing out of Oblivion. I have 5 different sets of tubes for Oblivion. @xfusion come on out and roll your tubes in Oblivion.


I tried every available tube and these remained my favorite.  They run less hot and have a bit more soundstage wich is has a delicacy to them.
They are practically extinct and are at a "Holy Grail" status to me.

For the drivers stage, Mazda tubes are also great, but I instead settled on old version RCA for most majic, for my preferences.
In this driver section, subjective preference is more the deciding factor, and to explore this, I Iiterally bought every driver tube in existence to try, which actually was fun as the driver tubes are not that expensive.
So it was a big surprise that I found the oldest RCA having a most lively and musical signature to my preferences. 
I still like some others like the mullards and some others.

Anyways, If anyone want to buy a quad of the Mazda for outputs, shoot me a PM. I horded enough to sell a set.
🙂


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> I tried every available tube and these remained my favorite.  They run less hot and have a bit more soundstage wich is has a delicacy to them.
> They are practically extinct and are at a "Holy Grail" status to me.
> 
> For the drivers stage, Mazda tubes are also great, but I instead settled on old version RCA for most majic.
> ...



The Mazda are wonderful sounding tubes and I am enjoying HD800 with Oblivion. I miss this pairing and it's pretty incredible.


----------



## UntilThen

Wow Susvara is soaring with EL11 and 807 combo in UL mode. Radiotron 807 came back with me on yesterday's trip. So I have miss it for several months. If you love 6L6 tone, the 807 is it in a higher voltage. I still haven't heard Susvara on EL11 and EL12 spez. Many tube combinations to roll through. By the time I'm done, Susvara will be burned in.


----------



## Isaacc7

I have just found a great tube combo for my Cossor 807. All of the 807 I’ve tried (Sylvania, Russian, Cossor/GEC) sound really good. And yes, that is coming from someone with a love of 6l6 tone.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> I have just found a great tube combo for my Cossor 807. All of the 807 I’ve tried (Sylvania, Russian, Cossor/GEC) sound really good. And yes, that is coming from someone with a love of 6l6 tone.



Great sounding tubes and for the price good value. Susvara sounding nuanced and melodious with this tube combination of Telefunken EL11 and Radiotron 807.


----------



## Isaacc7 (Jun 19, 2022)

The Cossor/GEC 807 with the MOV cv1102 makes deep, rich sounds in my system. Funnily enough my usual go to input tubes didn’t sound great. Must be the British connection that did the trick.


----------



## UntilThen

GEC is a revered brand. I have tubes with those stickers that sing like the sirens. Will win Eurovision for sure.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jun 19, 2022)

​I'm getting a spectacular, astute and well rounded sound from my "Finyssey" with this combo. RCA 6FQ7 (6CG7) with E88CC (6N23P) adapter and perfectly matched and flawless Tesla EL12 Spez for output tubes. Vivid, crisp, clean sound that is also full, vibrant and heavy hitting and big soundstage. My favorite combo so far, even with this lowly setup with entry-level DAC and old HD-600 headphones (with silver cable and ferrite chokes to improve things), and this unassuming generic looking dirt cheap input tube. Still got more combinations to gradually try.


----------



## mordy

DecentLevi said:


> ​I'm getting a spectacular, astute and well rounded sound from my "Finyssey" with this combo. RCA 6FQ7 (6CG7) with E88CC (6N23P) adapter and perfectly matched and flawless Tesla EL12 Spez for output tubes. Vivid, crisp, clean sound that is also full, vibrant and heavy hitting and big soundstage. My favorite combo so far, even with this lowly setup with entry-level DAC and old HD-600 headphones (with silver cable and ferrite chokes to improve things), and this unassuming generic looking dirt cheap input tube. Still got more combinations to gradually try.


Can you describe the amp a little- three sockets? What are the functions of the meters?


----------



## nieveulv

Was wondering how would the oblivion do with zmf headphones like the verite. Very interested in it. However it seems like it have not enough power for zmf headphones

80mW into 300 ohms from the web spec seems pretty weak for 300ohms headphones

However it can power the susvara...... at 420mW into 50 ohms.


----------



## UntilThen

nieveulv said:


> Was wondering how would the oblivion do with zmf headphones like the verite. Very interested in it. However it seems like it have not enough power for zmf headphones



I don't know where you get that impression that Oblivion does not have enough power to drive ZMF headphones, in particular Verite. I should know because I have Verite LTD Open Pheasant wood for 2 years and I find it a very good match with Oblivion. Likewise the 300 ohms HD800 is perfect with Oblivion.

Of course now I'm very surprise that Oblivion drives Susvara satisfactorily. 

Oh drives LCD-X and LCD-3f and LCD4 beautifully. I haven't come across any headphones that Oblivion cannot drive. Great pairing with my high efficiency He1000se. Wide soundstage, airy and crystal clear with the right touch of tube tone and no background noise.

Mr Curwen's design and he nail it. 

With Verite Open


With HD800


With LCD-3f


With LCD-X


----------



## UntilThen

nieveulv said:


> 80mW into 300 ohms from the web spec seems pretty weak for 300ohms headphones



Remember Oblivion is constant current source. Current always there when you need it. In reality you don't use 6 watts into any headphone. It's at most mw watts. Just need to have the current for the peaks in your music and Oblivion has that in abundance.

Oblivion is not your typical old school amp design. Read up Ultrasonic Studio website and get an idea of Oblivion design. I'm not one to understand technical stuff but my ears are my guide and I know what Oblivion is capable of. http://ultrasonicstudios.org/oblivion/


----------



## nieveulv

UntilThen said:


> I don't know where you get that impression that Oblivion does not have enough power to drive ZMF headphones, in particular Verite. I should know because I have Verite LTD Open Pheasant wood for 2 years and I find it a very good match with Oblivion. Likewise the 300 ohms HD800 is perfect with Oblivion.
> 
> Of course now I'm very surprise that Oblivion drives Susvara satisfactorily.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. I got the impression from the power ratings from the website. At 300ohms, 80mw just seems low when you read about it. Glad to hear that its powerful enough!


----------



## UntilThen

nieveulv said:


> Thanks for the reply. I got the impression from the power ratings from the website. At 300ohms, 80mw just seems low when you read about it. Glad to hear that its powerful enough!



I'm now listening with HD800 (300 ohms) with Oblivion. My volume knob is at a 1/4 which is 9am. If I turn anymore my ears will get a blast.

Now for the surprise. Oblivion drives my speakers in nearfield listening. Hell Freezes Over has never sounded better.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jun 20, 2022)

mordy said:


> Can you describe the amp a little- three sockets? What are the functions of the meters?


This is Finyssey or Infinity v2 that takes it closer to the Odyssey. There's 5 sockets: 2 output and 3 input sockets (2 output tubes and either 1 6SN7 class or 2 6J5 class), but tube types is something that can be negotiated with the designer Tomas. I have one 'health meter' for each tube, which I believe is the best way, to help gauge any major drift before a tube goes bad. The two larger meters are for output, and the two smaller ones are for input (in the case of 1 dual triode 6SN7 class tube it works as one meter for each of the two triodes). The outputs are autio-bias and I manually adjust the cathode bias for input tubes with a multi-turn knob and Volt-o-meter according to a chart given by Tomas. Main description here.

Although my time with the original Infinity was limited, I hear an extravagant improvement in all areas of sound, IMHO, after the redesign which took it closer to the Odyssey. As such I can say @UntilThen is DEFINITELY onto something with the Odyssey, and that should be endgame material.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> As such I can say @UntilThen is DEFINITELY onto something with the Odyssey, and that should be endgame material.



I like to kick the words 'endgame' into the ocean because with UntilThen there is no end.   However I concede that I've ascended Mt Everest and the view is beautiful up here ! I wonder what system Edmund Hillary has?

I'm in bliss now with this setup. The Berlin tubes are amazing. I can't get enough of it. In fact many tube combinations are amazing in Odyssey. I will finish tube rolling in 2030.1


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> I like to kick the words 'endgame' into the ocean because with UntilThen there is no end.   However I concede that I've ascended Mt Everest and the view is beautiful up here ! I wonder what system Edmund Hillary has?
> 
> I'm in bliss now with this setup. The Berlin tubes are amazing. I can't get enough of it. In fact many tube combinations are amazing in Odyssey. I will finish tube rolling in 2030.1


I asked Google which stereo system Edmund Hillary had, and they sent me to Walmart. (no, I am not making this up!)


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> I asked Google which stereo system Edmund Hillary had, and they sent me to Walmart. (no, I am not making this up!)



  

Walmart is owned by the Walton family. The richest family in the United States of America. Walmart is the world's largest company by revenue. If Hillary's system is from Walmart, you can be sure it's top notch. Coming to a Walmart store next summer - a niche division selling high end head-fi.


----------



## Capunk (Jun 20, 2022)

Holy moly this amp is huge for my already cramped desk!

Since this is my first tubes amp in decades, is it normal to have the tubes pin not completely pushed in? I was afraid to break the tubes in process? Kinda wobbly but it’s work.


----------



## UntilThen

Capunk said:


> Holy moly this amp is huge for my already cramped desk!
> 
> Since this is my first tubes amp in decades, is it normal to have the tubes pin not completely pushed in? I was afraid to break the tubes in process? Kinda wobbly but it’s work.



It's a big amp but light.  The tubes will go in fully. Just be careful. When removing I rock it gently to get it out. After a few times, it should go in and out a lot easier and it will go in all the way.


----------



## TheMiddleSky (Jun 20, 2022)

nieveulv said:


> Was wondering how would the oblivion do with zmf headphones like the verite. Very interested in it. However it seems like it have not enough power for zmf headphones
> 
> 80mW into 300 ohms from the web spec seems pretty weak for 300ohms headphones
> 
> However it can power the susvara...... at 420mW into 50 ohms.



Oblivion is indeed really powerful to drive ZMF. Low gain is much more than enough.

Sound wise, personally I prefer Oblivion than cayin ha300 mk2 when drive Verite Open and Atrium. More transparent, harder hitting, and bigger soundstage.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hey guys, which new production, _affordable _KT88 tubes are the best? There's Shuguang, Gold Lion, JJ blue tube and Psvane although I'm not sure about the latter. @BzzzzzT  mentioned about the Black Treasure KT88-Z which I believe are from Psvane. Are those your favorite and which have you tried?


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Hey guys, which new production, _affordable _KT88 tubes are the best? There's Shuguang, Gold Lion, JJ blue tube and Psvane although I'm not sure about the latter. @BzzzzzT  mentioned about the Black Treasure KT88-Z which I believe are from Psvane. Are those your favorite and which have you tried?



Psvane KT88 Tii and Shuguang Black Treasure KT88-Z in that order.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> Oblivion is indeed really powerful to drive ZMF. Low gain is much more than enough.
> 
> Sound wise, personally I prefer Oblivion than cayin ha300 mk2 when drive Verite Open and Atrium. More transparent, harder hitting, and bigger soundstage.



Oblivion is more powerful than Studio Six and Wa22.


----------



## LoryWiv

K3cT said:


> I'd rather not say too much. The Obli sounded a lot more 3 dimensional for sure. 🙈


I did get to hear OOR, with Hypsos power supply, at CanJam Chicago. One of the better SS amps IMO until you go well above it's price class. Nice small form factor too. Of course I have no frame of reference to compare it to UltraSonic Studios' masterful tube amps but I did like the Ferrum gear I heard at the show.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Lights off on a wintry night, I'm in Casablanca. With both amps driving Susvara so superbly, I'm very happy to have arrived at this stage of my audio journey. It's bliss.


Casablanca? Perhaps Humphrey Bogart was referring to one of @SonicTrance 's amps when he said "you played it for her, you can play it for me".


----------



## UntilThen

I have an open mind. If one day I get to try the OOR with the power supply, I would be willing to audition it. At the beginning of last year, I went through a number of solid states because I wanted to see if they are for me. The amps I've owned and tried in a 6 months period are Questyle CMA 12, Violectric V280, Auralic Taurus Mk2 and Schiit MJ2 (hybrid I guess). The first 3 are actually pretty good but I much prefer my Oblivion to them. So I sold them. Then came Odyssey and I've not heard anything else better to my ears. I'm open to try any challengers.


----------



## UntilThen

I've miss out a few other solid states that I've tried recently. Burson Soloist 3xp, Sparkos Aries, Singxer SA-1.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> *I have an open mind*. If one day I get to try the OOR with the power supply, I would be willing to audition it. At the beginning of last year, I went through a number of solid states because I wanted to see if they are for me. The amps I've owned and tried in a 6 months period are Questyle CMA 12, Violectric V280, Auralic Taurus Mk2 and Schiit MJ2 (hybrid I guess). The first 3 are actually pretty good but I much prefer my Oblivion to them. So I sold them. Then came Odyssey and I've not heard anything else better to my ears. I'm open to try any challengers.


----------



## UntilThen

An open mind but unfortunately not an open wallet.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> An open mind but unfortunately not an open wallet.


A/K/A:…….deep pockets, short arms….🤪


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Hey guys, which new production, _affordable _KT88 tubes are the best? There's Shuguang, Gold Lion, JJ blue tube and Psvane although I'm not sure about the latter. @BzzzzzT  mentioned about the Black Treasure KT88-Z which I believe are from Psvane. Are those your favorite and which have you tried?



https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/psvane-kt88-tii-vs-shuguang-treasure-kt88-z-vs-original-mullard-kt88/

I believe the reviewer meant GEC KT88 and not vintage Mullard KT88. My personal take is that I agree with the reviewer. The Psvane is better than the Shuguang but the latter is still good. However the GEC KT88 is the best. No contest. It's gone back into the box and will make a once a year appearance at Christmas because it needs to be preserved.  

Brimar CV 455 FB/KB (produced in 1956 !!! in the Footscray factory) and Shuguang Black Treasures KT88-Z. A combination that should pleased the fussiest of ears.


My precious KT88s


----------



## DecentLevi

I thought RCA 6FQ7 + EL12 Spez was the best, but not after I tried Voskhod 6N23P + EL39. This is a fabulous and divine sound - effortless liquid sweet tone with ability to portray soundstage, imaging and PRaT of _any_ genre with aplomb finesse! It must be crystal with gold internals and here I can have my cake and eat it too. After all this is a very rare authentic Voskhod 6N23P SWGP with CCCP logo. Many fakes abound, several of which I compared it to unfavorably, and the real version go for around $500 each these days, luckily I got mine a few years ago with a bit lower price. Makes the former pair sound muddy and mid-fi by comparison. Of course thanks also goes to our brilliant amp designer Tomas as well. Who would've thought something so small would yield such a BIG amazing sound!


----------



## Capunk

Quick question for the oblivion user with pre-amp built-in, 
With stock tubes, the humming noise out of my speaker is unbearable, very audible, is this normal? 


This is my setup : 
iFi Gryphon -> Balanced XLR output -> Oblivion -> Pre-amp out XLR -> M-PWR Power Amp -> KEF 150


----------



## UntilThen

Capunk said:


> Quick question for the oblivion user with pre-amp built-in,
> With stock tubes, the humming noise out of my speaker is unbearable, very audible, is this normal?
> 
> 
> ...



Don't know. Check with Tomas. I don't have preamp out but I have speaker out and there's no noise at all. So Oblivion direct to speakers.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> I tried Voskhod 6N23P + EL39. This is a fabulous and divine sound - effortless liquid sweet tone with ability to portray soundstage, imaging and PRaT of _any_ genre with aplomb finesse!



That combination will be great for tight hard hitting bass and great overall.


----------



## SonicTrance (Jun 21, 2022)

Capunk said:


> Quick question for the oblivion user with pre-amp built-in,
> With stock tubes, the humming noise out of my speaker is unbearable, very audible, is this normal?
> 
> 
> ...


It shouldn't make any noise whatsoever. Does it hum when using headphones? If not, there's something going on with your other stuff. The Gryphon has a built in amp, use a low volume here to not overdrive the 6AT6 input stage in Oblivion. Then no more than half volume on Oblivion to be safe. It's all in the manual. Perhaps you have the SE switch ON? If so, flip it to balanced.


----------



## Xavilaw (Jun 21, 2022)

Capunk said:


> Quick question for the oblivion user with pre-amp built-in,
> With stock tubes, the humming noise out of my speaker is unbearable, very audible, is this normal?
> 
> 
> ...


I have a Citadel (impressions coming in soon) and use it as a pre amp for many situations. I power my KEFQ100 with them. When i first got it i had a bit of noise in the background which was resolved by getting a better power cable for the Citadel and noise gone. Also had to plug the citadel directly in a power outlet on my wall. I also have my Citadel as far as possible from other electronics (PC).


----------



## Capunk (Jun 21, 2022)

SonicTrance said:


> It shouldn't make any noise whatsoever. Does it hum when using headphones? If not, there's something going on with your other stuff. The Gryphon has a built in amp, use a low volume here to not overdrive the 6AT6 input stage in Oblivion. Then no more than half volume on Oblivion to be safe. It's all in the manual. Perhaps you have the SE switch ON? If so, flip it to balanced.



Yes, the noise floor is noticeable with my HD800 (even on low gain), and "obviously" with IEM (pointless but just to demonstrate the noise is there),
I got furutech power cable and power conditioner board, and have tested this with switch up (SE mode) and switch down (BAL mode). 

Normally I use Gryphon line out directly to Power Amp with no hum nor noise audible enough (via Balanced XLR) and previously used Burson 3XP as pre-amp without issues as well. Both of them are solid state. 

I'll try to isolate the setup and monitor my findings.


----------



## UntilThen

Capunk said:


> Yes, the noise floor is noticeable with my HD800 (even on low gain), and "obviously" with IEM (pointless but just to demonstrate the noise is there),
> I got furutech power cable and power conditioner board, and have tested this with switch up (SE mode) and switch down (BAL mode).
> 
> Normally I use Gryphon line out directly to Power Amp with no hum nor noise audible enough (via Balanced XLR) and previously used Burson 3XP as pre-amp without issues as well. Both of them are solid state.
> ...



Do you have a dedicated dac to try with Oblivion. I have Bifrost 2, Yggdrasil and NAD M51 and I've never had any noise whatsoever with Oblivion. My setup here is surrounded by PCs. I use ordinary power cords and have no power conditioner. Yet I have no noise at all. From both Odyssey and Oblivion.


----------



## SonicTrance

Capunk said:


> Yes, the noise floor is noticeable with my HD800 (even on low gain), and "obviously" with IEM (pointless but just to demonstrate the noise is there),
> I got furutech power cable and power conditioner board, and have tested this with switch up (SE mode) and switch down (BAL mode).
> 
> Normally I use Gryphon line out directly to Power Amp with no hum nor noise audible enough (via Balanced XLR) and previously used Burson 3XP as pre-amp without issues as well. Both of them are solid state.
> ...


Was it you that ordered a bunch of replacement tubes with your amp? If so, try different ones. I obviously tested each one on my tester but not all in circuit.


----------



## UntilThen

Capunk said:


> Holy moly this amp is huge for my already cramped desk!
> 
> Since this is my first tubes amp in decades, is it normal to have the tubes pin not completely pushed in? I was afraid to break the tubes in process? Kinda wobbly but it’s work.



Is it possible your driver tubes are not sitting in correctly. From the picture, it looks like it's hanging loose.


----------



## Capunk

UntilThen said:


> Do you have a dedicated dac to try with Oblivion. I have Bifrost 2, Yggdrasil and NAD M51 and I've never had any noise whatsoever with Oblivion. My setup here is surrounded by PCs. I use ordinary power cords and have no power conditioner. Yet I have no noise at all. From both Odyssey and Oblivion.


I got Denafrips Ares II connected to Oblivion right now (Balanced), I've also used iFi idefender just in case. 


SonicTrance said:


> Was it you that ordered a bunch of replacement tubes with your amp? If so, try different ones. I obviously tested each one on my tester but not all in circuit.


Wasn't me, but I'll ask my fellow oblivion user here to lend me their tubes. 


UntilThen said:


> Is it possible your driver tubes are not sitting in correctly. From the picture, it looks like it's hanging loose.


I've fixed it, and pushed in just as you tell me before. 


I'm planning to isolate the amp in a controlled and less busy environment, reshuffle the tubes and see how it goes.


----------



## UntilThen

My HD800 right now is lovely with Oblivion and it's pitch black background.  I'm really trying to understand where all these noise issues are coming from lately.


----------



## UntilThen

I've Yggdrasil feeding Odyssey and Oblivion. Susvara is connected to Odyssey and HD800 is connected to Oblivion. I've a lot of electronics on this large desk. Both setups are quiet. After spending quite a lot of time with Susvara and Odyssey (which I think is amazing), I was equally pleased with HD800 and Oblivion. Could be the best amp for HD800.


----------



## Magol79 (Jun 21, 2022)

@Capunk 

My desktop computer is running an AIO watercooler. It has a pump running constantly. My tube amp is sitting on the same desk. I had hum problems with several tube pairs. When I put dampening feet under the 'puter almost all hum problems went away. 

The situation may be different here. But if anything requiring active cooling is sharing the same desk space as your tube amp, physical dampening may be necessary.


----------



## UntilThen

Step into my world of organised mess and very quiet system.  

Frontal shot. My beloved Axis Voicebox S speakers.


On the left.


On the right.


----------



## Thaddy

Well, my custom Odyssey is 6-7 months out, but at least I have some NOS GEC KT66's, Mullard xf2 EL34's, and Tungsol 6550's showing up today.  I've never owned any of the nicer British tubes for my WA22, although I do have a NOS Mullard 5AR4 that is pretty nice.  This will be my first set of GEC's, pretty excited to finally get a pair.


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> Well, my custom Odyssey is 6-7 months out, but at least I have some NOS GEC KT66's, Mullard xf2 EL34's, and Tungsol 6550's showing up today.  I've never owned any of the nicer British tubes for my WA22, although I do have a NOS Mullard 5AR4 that is pretty nice.  This will be my first set of GEC's, pretty excited to finally get a pair.



All 3 pairs are pretty special, Thaddy. They are amongst my A listed tubes. Tung Sol 6550 is even more special than Tung Sol 5998.


----------



## Thaddy

UntilThen said:


> All 3 pairs are pretty special, Thaddy. They are amongst my A listed tubes. Tung Sol 6550 is even more special than Tung Sol 5998.


I'm fortunate enough to own two pairs of 5998's, bottom and top getters.  They're excellent, and honestly I haven't heard a NOS Tung-Sol tube that I didn't like.  Their black glass 6SL7's are excellent as well, and will probably be the first set of drivers that I put in the Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

Besides the Tung Sol NOS, step into the world of exotic EL34. They are as special as 300b. Mullard, Philips Miniwatt, Telefunken EL34 all entice whether they be metal base, brown base or black base. 

When you're done with that, round up with dessert with GEC KT66, KT77 and KT88.  Sorry for your wallet.

Don't forget to get some 807s. Cossor or GEC 807 are the cream but even Radiotron 807 are pretty marvelous. 807s are more wallet friendly than the above mentioned tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Getting up at 1am, my room is totally silent in between songs. That's how quiet my gears are. It's a pleasure to listen to music at this time of the day. That's why I use headphones.


----------



## UntilThen

Swapping HiFiMan's flagships of Susvara and He1000se between Oblivion and Odyssey and the time pass quickly. What an incredible pairing between these 4 units. It's too good but at some point I need to tear myself away and go back to sleep.


----------



## Thaddy

UntilThen said:


> Besides the Tung Sol NOS, step into the world of exotic EL34. They are as special as 300b. Mullard, Philips Miniwatt, Telefunken EL34 all entice whether they be metal base, brown base or black base.
> 
> When you're done with that, round up with dessert with GEC KT66, KT77 and KT88.  Sorry for your wallet.
> 
> Don't forget to get some 807s. Cossor or GEC 807 are the cream but even Radiotron 807 are pretty marvelous. 807s are more wallet friendly than the above mentioned tubes.


The tubes arrived and it turns out the 6550's and EL34's have matching date codes, very excited to listen to them.  I'll look into 807's as well, thanks for the recommendation.


----------



## DecentLevi

EMERGENCY MEETING ​
Today I decided to try hi-fi *rubber dampening feet* under my 'Finyssey' amp. Gave a few well recorded reference tracks a listen beforehand, and with these RCA 6J5 metal input tubes with EL39 I was thinking OK this has fantastic hard hitting slam, definition, clarity, good soundstage, what more could you want?... finished putting these babies underneath and gave it another listen. At this point I am struggling to CLING TO MY SANITY... jaw dropping open and a big smile. HOW CAN THIS EVEN BE THE SAME AMP? Now I'm catapulted into a holier land where things are no longer just GOOD, they're ENORMOUS and EXTRAVAGANT. Now I'm getting that extra transient response snap to the drums, sense of air, improved soundstage and even more organic experience. And I'm losing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! Something like this was expected in fact, because these same hi-fi feet had made an improvement on 3 previous amps as well both tube and solid states. And what's more is these seem to have reduced the hum by some degree as well.

Before you consider getting these, hold on a few days while I do some research. I have to find which ones these were and get a bigger one for this amp. As you can see, these are under capacity for the amps weight. Another thing I had done was to combine these dampening feet with a cutout piece of a sorbothane sheet which is also a special rubber-like material. On previous amps I believe stacking these two together this was adding a certain magic sauce to the sound, and it seems that benefit carries over here as well.

SURPRISE #2:
A few days ago while troubleshooting a hum with my amp I added *ferrite chokes* (removable ferrite clamps) *on wires inside the amp*. Tomas gave me his blessing to do this and won't let me share photos of the inside, but what I had done was to follow the AC signal path and placed various types (depending on wire thickness) before and after the transformers and on several wires leading to the main ground signal section. In all I used 16 chokes and I loved the result so much I just decided to leave it and never look back! Besides I don't want to dislodge something internally by experimenting around too much, but I nailed it on my idea of putting it on the AC signal path only. Here was a copy of my original notes:

Next is when things get interesting. I decided to go a bit crazy with ferrite chokes on just about every major initial flow of AC power before the audio signal, now with 16 chokes. I thought I'd start some music just in case 'maybe'it sounds different. Well it did, ABSOLUTELY!!! And for the BETTER! I had actually just used 3 random sizes with 3 varying ratings (around 190 -320ohm noise rejection) according to which wires they fit on. Now I am getting:

slightly improved soundstage (maybe) and more coherent imaging
better defined PRaT
slightly darker (desirable as it was modestly bright) and without any detail loss
somewhat more vivid, rich sound
These work by yielding a reduction in the high frequency noise which is outside our range of hearing, causing a trickle down effect into the audible spectrum in a similar way to what power conditioning does.

I actually don't want to get too deep into experimenting or rolling with what type of chokes and where to place them, because for one thing I could end up breaking a connection and for another there's frankly too many options - infinite combinations really. So for now I'm just leaving them like this because I don't want to change a thing with the sound. It's DEFINITELY not taking anything away, that I can assure you!






Yup folks, the combination of both ferrite chokes internally, and elevating the amp with special dampening feet underneath is elevating the performance to a level that is unmistakably superior to beforehand! This is something you would NOT KNOW YOU NEED until after trying it. It's really an impressive experience now, and for me, just think I'm still using an entry-level DAC and RCA cable I've got temporarily. For anyone who's interested I'll get back with more specific type details in a few days.

PS- with the way this sounds I am pleased to say there is no need to remove the original feet, as they work well together IMO.


----------



## UntilThen

Omg DecentLevi, you have not change one tiny bit since the days of Elise and Euforia. Ferrite choke and 16 of them ? Seriously? 

Does anyone else do this to their amp?


----------



## Thaddy

It's totally ridiculous, but if it sounds good to his ears, who cares?


----------



## baronbeehive

DecentLevi said:


> EMERGENCY MEETING ​
> Today I decided to try hi-fi *rubber dampening feet* under my 'Finyssey' amp. Gave a few well recorded reference tracks a listen beforehand, and with these RCA 6J5 metal input tubes with EL39 I was thinking OK this has fantastic hard hitting slam, definition, clarity, good soundstage, what more could you want?... finished putting these babies underneath and gave it another listen. At this point I am struggling to CLING TO MY SANITY... jaw dropping open and a big smile. HOW CAN THIS EVEN BE THE SAME AMP? Now I'm catapulted into a holier land where things are no longer just GOOD, they're ENORMOUS and EXTRAVAGANT. Now I'm getting that extra transient response snap to the drums, sense of air, improved soundstage and even more organic experience. And I'm losing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! Something like this was expected in fact, because these same hi-fi feet had made an improvement on 3 previous amps as well both tube and solid states. And what's more is these seem to have reduced the hum by some degree as well.
> 
> Before you consider getting these, hold on a few days while I do some research. I have to find which ones these were and get a bigger one for this amp. As you can see, these are under capacity for the amps weight. Another thing I had done was to combine these dampening feet with a cutout piece of a sorbothane sheet which is also a special rubber-like material. On previous amps I believe stacking these two together this was adding a certain magic sauce to the sound, and it seems that benefit carries over here as well.
> ...


Fantastic results! I am interested in what you say about the rubber feet. I was uncertain about what to use on mine and settled for brass spikes but I've heard different things about brass vs rubber.


----------



## paradoxper

Thaddy said:


> It's totally ridiculous, but if it sounds good to his ears, who cares?


It's total delusion, but it's his personal delusion. To him.


----------



## DecentLevi

Our universe is filled with numerous examples where there are things we can't see that either make a difference in our lives or directly effect us. How do we know gravity exists? The answer is obvious. Why do we think one metal inside a radio tube yields better sound than another? For a more practical example, why do so many people, including some of the most highly respected members of our community (Rob Watts of Chord electronics) herald the difference from a WAVE BNC cable? In that instance, it's a RCA coax data cable that uses 20 specific ferrite chokes on a single cable. People say it reduces HF interference and provides a more rich sound.

There was one person who disagrees with the sound of that specific cable, and that was actually me - an opinion I had after about 10 days with it and numerous trials. I thought it used too many ferrite chokes and my preference pointed to a specific BNC cable using a series of 3 specific ferrite chokes of premium quality type that work on lower frequencies, similar to the one center middle of this photo:



Over the last 2 years I have done many dozens of A/B trials throughout my system on the benefits of ferrite chokes. I am highly pleased that it worked on: 

headphone cables 
AC power chords 
DC wires 
USB data cable 
coax data cables 
(and now) internally in devices
I was a skeptic at first, especially with USB data cable, really not expecting to hear anything because in my former mind it shouldn't because there was just 1s and 0s. Turns out this was the biggest difference to my system and I've never looked back - this seems to work by reducing jitter and/or HF / RF from the DC signal inside the data cable. It was described as reducing a noisefloor modulation which is something which was inaudible but the after effect was a noticeable improvement. The only cable that didn't benefit was shielded power cables - because these already have a shield. Which brings me back to power conditioning and shielded cables. In these circles you can see many examples of practical applications for shielded cables to make an improvement in audio quality, as well as isolated mains power. The effect is somewhat similar, and you can read more on the technical reasons here. 

 There's a reason my entire system has specifically chosen ferrite chokes. Countless trials have pointed to varying differences of warmer / darker sound, improved dynamics, blacker background, more true-to-life organic characteristic, depending on the type used and how many. I hear an unwavering and repeatable difference every time they are removed, and returned again. One good thing is they are completely non-destructive and removable. 

@Thaddy and @UntilThen and @paradoxper  raised questions about practicality and amounts. In fact I approached this concept with my Ultrasonic Studious amp as a way to reduce a background hum I was hearing. I started with 4 ferrite chokes inside, and after noticing no reduction I decided to go all in with what became 16 in total. It may seem like a lot but it's just 1 on each of over a dozen wires inside, and I could have gone bigger. I tried this larger amount just to see if it makes a difference with hum, after which I would start removing them by a process of elimination - thus saving countless times getting back into my amp and closing it back up. Not noticing a difference in the area I was expecting, I thought I'd give it a listen with music playing 'just in case anything has changed'. And much to my surprise, I was immersed into quite a different experience that before. Just as with many previous trials using ferrite chokes, I was not expecting anything! But I absolutely did, and it was incredibly pleasing - so much that I decided from then on I will just leave it, having chosen the lucky placement internally on the AC (and DC?) power signal path - leaving the audio signal unaltered so I don't alter the benefits of tube rolling. In this way, the effect is more like a power conditioner or isolated power supply, which some ultra hi-fi devices use such as a DDC (digital interface). Those who are open to the unknown can reap the benefits. Yes it sounds better to my ears, but it could also sound better to yours if you were to try it, and if done right.

As you may gather there was ZERO expectation bias, not expecting anything and in fact this positive outcome was the coincidental result of actually trying to solve another problem. I don't go into these projects half cocked, but rely on a methodical process of A/B comparisons using high quality headphones and reference test songs with good mastering that I've hears 100's of times and listen for nuance details in the recordings. Furthermore I've been around the hobby for quite some years and many people trust my opinions on various pieces of equipment.

A precaution I would like to give however for anyone interested in trying this: Use extra caution to not dislodge or break any connections inside the amp and only insert a ferrite clamp if there is enough room for it - do not bend or force anything and only do this if you are have steady hands for fine movements. And regarding ferrite choke types, I used a combination of the cheap Chinese black type and the premium white type made by a company called STAR-TEC (these cost about $4 each and come with a lock & key).


----------



## baronbeehive

I agree with you about USB cable effects because there are several factors involved not just zeros and ones. Also shielding has obvious benefits as you have found. I don't know anything about ferrite chokes but as you have approached it in an experimental way I think there could well be benefits there. I have found similar effects with my approaches using different types of internal parts and so long as I stay objective I am confident in the effects that I have noted. So I wouldn't dismiss your findings at all, although you have to remain objective at all times IMO. The experimental approach is key.


----------



## UntilThen

I have zero ferrite choke. My amp is totally silent and sound amazing. I don't need any experimentations.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> So I wouldn't dismiss your findings at all, although you have to remain objective at all times IMO. The experimental approach is key.



Sure. If I could dig up Levi's christmas tree tubes pile up on his Feliks Audio Elise which he brought to CANJAM that year, I'm sure everyone there would agree it's an objective experimentation.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jun 22, 2022)

DecentLevi said:


> Our universe is filled with numerous examples where there are things we can't see that either make a difference in our lives or directly effect us. How do we know gravity exists? The answer is obvious. Why do we think one metal inside a radio tube yields better sound than another? For a more practical example, why do so many people, including some of the most highly respected members of our community (Rob Watts of Chord electronics) herald the difference from a WAVE BNC cable? In that instance, it's a RCA coax data cable that uses 20 specific ferrite chokes on a single cable. People say it reduces HF interference and provides a more rich sound.
> 
> There was one person who disagrees with the sound of that specific cable, and that was actually me - an opinion I had after about 10 days with it and numerous trials. I thought it used too many ferrite chokes and my preference pointed to a specific BNC cable using a series of 3 specific ferrite chokes of premium quality type that work on lower frequencies, similar to the one center middle of this photo:
> 
> ...


I still stand by the results I got from that particular (former) setup. This is about not judging a book by its cover - don't knock it till you try it. And in that instance, although it did have a unusual outward appearance, the sound was quite great and the electrical schematics made sense logically and it was never proven to have damaged anything. IMO, the combination of both vibration absorption feet and internal ferrite chokes is yielding an exceptional sound. And I would say the ferrite chokes internally are allowing a level of sound and specific characteristics that may not be achievable from _any_ tubes.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> I have zero ferrite choke. My amp is totally silent and sound amazing. I don't need any experimentations.


You never had the electrical problems others experienced - must be the Aussie electric grid. Perhaps 220V works better than 110V...


----------



## UntilThen

Ferrite chokes goes back to the days of Feliks Audio Euforia, where tubes that were not meant to be used in that OTL amp, were used. So ferrite chokes were used to suppressed hums. This is one big pile of headaches. Why use unauthorised tubes in Euforia and then find ways to suppress the hums.

It's like driving against a one way street and trying to avoid a collision.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing.831743/post-13699931


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> You never had the electrical problems others experienced - must be the Aussie electric grid. Perhaps 220V works better than 110V...



I can assure you many in USA do not have this problem.


----------



## Thaddy

UntilThen said:


> I can assure you many in USA do not have this problem.


My WA2 and WA22...both dead silent with the right combination of tubes.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Fantastic results! I am interested in what you say about the rubber feet. *I was uncertain about what to use on mine and settled for brass spikes but I've heard different things about brass vs rubber.*


Different sounds, IME.  I prefer brass pointy things (spikes, cones) myself, but that's system and personal preference dependent entirely.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jun 23, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Ferrite chokes goes back to the days of Feliks Audio Euforia, where tubes that were not meant to be used in that OTL amp, were used. So ferrite chokes were used to suppressed hums. This is one big pile of headaches. Why use unauthorised tubes in Euforia and then find ways to suppress the hums.
> 
> It's like driving against a one way street and trying to avoid a collision.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing.831743/post-13699931


UT you missed the point on this one. This no longer has anything to do with reducing audible noise or noise from hums. It is a trick I have found that to me improves fidelity, that works by reducing noise that is beyond the audible frequencies which has an interesting  trickle-down effect of improving many aspects in the audible realm. Many other users for other applications have found positive results, as mentioned on the previous page. I am using the amp properly and there is nothing wrong with it aside from a slight hum. This is not me using it to solve a problem from something I am doing wrong, rather akin to using shielded power cables or power conditioning to enhance the sound. I am extremely satisfied with fantastic results and was just sharing my experience to enhance the happiness of anybody who would also like to try this.

Sure I had used ferrite chokes to solve a problem before, but since then I have graduated. I have found many more uses and am also proud to have moved on to much better ferrite chokes.


----------



## jonathan c (Jun 23, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Different sounds, IME.  *I prefer brass pointy things *(spikes, cones) myself, but that's system and personal preference dependent entirely.


Also, Marilyn Manson’s sartorial preference !! 🤣


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I prefer brass pointy things



I can't believe you said that.


----------



## baronbeehive (Jun 23, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> Also, Marilyn Manson’s sartorial preference !! 🤣


... and Madonna, or so I'm told. Is there nothing Marilyn Manson hasn't tried... don't answer that.

Edit: ... maybe ferrite chokes... *not yet* anyway 🤣.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I can't believe you said that.


Oh, sorry.  How about pointy brass things?  🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> ... and Madonna, or so I'm told. Is there nothing Marilyn Manson hasn't tried... don't answer that.
> 
> Edit: ... maybe ferrite chokes... *not yet* anyway 🤣.


Ferrite choke dog collars with spikes:  _passé !!_


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Ferrite choke dog collars with spikes:  _passé !!_



If you're going to use a choke, do it with some class.


----------



## UntilThen

Oblivion driving my speakers now. Relieving Odyssey of that duty. While doing that I had HD800 still connected to Oblivion and I turn up the volume and what I heard is a revelation. HD800 out of Oblivion is the cream of the crop.

Now for some speakers listening from Oblivion.


----------



## hpamdr

UntilThen said:


> HD800 out of Oblivion is the cream of the crop.


Even better than Susrava out of odyssey with full TFK setup ? OMG !
_(This is probably because it was a long time without listening it and you do not remember how good they are  )_


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> Even better than Susrava out of odyssey with full TFK setup ? OMG !
> _(This is probably because it was a long time without listening it and you do not remember how good they are  )_



HD800 / Oblivion is good but Susvara / Odyssey is nirvana.  After a week with Susvara I just couldn't put it down except for the accidental hearing of HD800 with Oblivion today.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm just spoilt. I have 2 systems here that sound incredible. They are good contrast to each other too.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jun 24, 2022)

I'm finally able to break out the GEC L63 (6J5) that have been waiting for a home since around 2019 when I got them, thanks to advice of (I think UT). These along with EL39 outputs both NOS or mint, on my unique revised Infinity-Odyssey (Finyssey ) and the two simple (reversible) hacks just sounds downright GORGEOUS! Fidelity in spades with a basically effortless nearly holographic soundstage, with splendid vivid mids and immediate slam. I just hope I don't fall off my chair once I hear what this system can really do with a better DAC and headphones. Quite the bang for the buck.





PS - I liked these better than the green letter Fivre 6J5's.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> Ferrite choke dog collars with spikes:  _passé !!_


I know... I'm behind the times again!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> If you're going to use a choke, do it with some class.


Now you're talking 🤣.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Oblivion driving my speakers now. Relieving Odyssey of that duty. While doing that I had HD800 still connected to Oblivion and I turn up the volume and what I heard is a revelation. HD800 out of Oblivion is the cream of the crop.
> 
> Now for some speakers listening from Oblivion.


So which do you prefer through speakers, Oblivion or Odyssey?


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> So which do you prefer through speakers, Oblivion or Odyssey?



It's a draw. Mon to Thur it's Oblivion. Fri to Sun, it's Odyssey. The two Os in my life. O.O


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> I'm finally able to break out the GEC L63 (6J5) that have been waiting for a home since around 2019 when I got them, thanks to advice of (I think UT). These along with EL39 outputs both NOS or mint, on my unique revised Infinity-Odyssey (Finyssey ) and the two simple (reversible) hacks just sounds downright GORGEOUS! Fidelity in spades with a basically effortless nearly holographic soundstage, with splendid vivid mids and immediate slam. I just hope I don't fall off my chair once I hear what this system can really do with a better DAC and headphones. Quite the bang for the buck.



I love the GEC L63 on my previous GOTL. With Odyssey, the decision was whether to go with EL11 or L63/6J5. EL11 won out in the end because I have a lot of EL11. No regrets because EL11 has that German fast, sharp, clear tone.

Susvara is the best sounding headphone - period. After a week, I am just floored with how nuanced, melodious and balanced Susvara sound. Both Odyssey and Oblivion drives it perfectly. Odyssey has the more saturated tube tone and bass kicks that is very mesmerising. Oblivion brings about transparency, airiness and wider soundstage. If you ask me, I still have preference of Odyssey driving Susvara.

What would be interesting is to hear how Susvara sound with your Finyssey, Infinity, Eternity and Citadel. Not forgetting Telemachus.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> What would be interesting is to hear how Susvara sound with your Finyssey, Infinity, Eternity and Citadel. Not forgetting Telemachus.


There is a simple way: order all of them.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> There is a simple way: order all of them.



Hard to imagine Oblivion drives Susvara so well. Not only power but tonally. Getting it right tonally is the hard part but Oblivion and Odyssey does it so well.

So the next step is not another amp purchase but Abyss 1266 TC.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> So the next step is not another amp purchase but Abyss 1266 TC.


And Telemachus, at least.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> And Telemachus, at least.



Why must you bend my arm.


----------



## UntilThen

Sunday morning tubes with Tung Sol 6550, Brimar 6SL7 and Mullard GZ34. Beautiful sound can be created with a few tubes without any adapters. Like a Japanese garden, it's poetry in simplicity. By now Susvara is heavenly. It could be the only headphone I need. I'm ready to drop the mike.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Sunday morning tubes with Tung Sol 6550, Brimar 6SL7 and Mullard GZ34. Beautiful sound can be created with a few tubes without any adapters. Like a Japanese garden, it's poetry in simplicity. By now Susvara is heavenly. *It could be the only headphone I need.* I'm ready to drop the mike.


GH-1 might throttle you 😡…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> GH-1 might throttle you 😡…



Unfortunately GH1 is a violin but Susvara is an orchestra.


----------



## jonathan c

Does that make you the Maestro?


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Does that make you the Maestro?



I wield the baton. Sometimes the whip.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright another discovery. Speakers out from Odyssey and Oblivion are much better than headphone out for Susvara. Dynamics, soundstage and eargasm are very real now. It's how I will use my amps with Susvara now.  

Banana plugs into the speaker outs.



Balanced connector to headphone cable.


----------



## UntilThen

Ok I was wrong. Just tried headphone out and no noticeable difference. Same wholesomeness. Will keep the speaker out cable for posterity. One of those things where I can say, 'Been there done that'.


----------



## Velozity

It's 2:20am on the east coast of the US.  I want to go to bed.  I REALLY want to go to sleep.  I can't.  I just....CAN'T!  My recent order of 10 Cossor (GEC) 6J5G / L63 (mislabled as 6C5G) arrived this week and I just finished testing and matching them.  Got a set of four in Telemachus.  I CAN'T STOP LISTENING to this amplifier.  My VC is singing so sweetly right now.  Everything I loved about the amp when using Tung Sol VT-94 as drivers has been met and surpassed with L63.  I really liked the L63 in my GOTL.  I absolutely love it in Telemachus paired with the EML 300B.  The tone is so rich and wet, the impact is visceral, and the detail is so palpable.  This amp is such a gem.  It's so unnecessary for my needs yet I can't see ever downsizing from this.  Anyone looking to purchase this amp do yourself a favor and make absolutely sure you have a DAC that is up to the task of feeding this beast.  It's not lost on me the supporting roles that my upgraded Onyx and SU-6 are playing in my sonic bliss.  Oh man, as I type a Stevie Ray Vaughan track has started in my playlist.  I was hoping to go to sleep, my body needs it, but alas I don't have the willpower to press STOP.   I need help...


----------



## Zachik

Velozity said:


> My recent order of 10 Cossor (GEC) 6J5G / L63 (mislabled as 6C5G) arrived this week and I just finished testing and matching them.


Man... where do you keep finding those?! 😯


----------



## hpamdr

Velozity said:


> My recent order of 10 Cossor (GEC) 6J5G / L63 (mislabled as 6C5G) arrived this week and I just finished testing and matching them.


6C5G are predecessor and very close to 6J5G and L63. Usually you can use 6J5 in place of 6C5. Minor differences are bigger plate resistance (10 vs 7.7 KΩ)  and lesser transconductance ( 2 vs 2.6 mA/V) at operating point (va 250V /vg -8V). Usually tube manufacturer do not miss-label, they just indicate what the tube is and for early production of a newest tube they could just indicate the closest/most used compatible tube. In your case, if you can measure it you could be sure about 6C5 or L63 type. 
I personally like a lot 6C5G in place of regular 6J5 and NR73 in place of 6N7. 

At the end the goal is to enjoy music and be astonished each time you turn the amp on !


----------



## whirlwind

Velozity said:


> It's 2:20am on the east coast of the US.  I want to go to bed.  I REALLY want to go to sleep.  I can't.  I just....CAN'T!  My recent order of 10 Cossor (GEC) 6J5G / L63 (mislabled as 6C5G) arrived this week and I just finished testing and matching them.  Got a set of four in Telemachus.  I CAN'T STOP LISTENING to this amplifier.  My VC is singing so sweetly right now.  Everything I loved about the amp when using Tung Sol VT-94 as drivers has been met and surpassed with L63.  I really liked the L63 in my GOTL.  I absolutely love it in Telemachus paired with the EML 300B.  The tone is so rich and wet, the impact is visceral, and the detail is so palpable.  This amp is such a gem.  It's so unnecessary for my needs yet I can't see ever downsizing from this.  Anyone looking to purchase this amp do yourself a favor and make absolutely sure you have a DAC that is up to the task of feeding this beast.  It's not lost on me the supporting roles that my upgraded Onyx and SU-6 are playing in my sonic bliss.  Oh man, as I type a Stevie Ray Vaughan track has started in my playlist.  I was hoping to go to sleep, my body needs it, but alas I don't have the willpower to press STOP.   I need help...


Awesome find on the GEC 6J5G's


----------



## bcowen

Velozity said:


> It's 2:20am on the east coast of the US.  I want to go to bed.  I REALLY want to go to sleep.  I can't.  I just....CAN'T!  My recent order of 10 Cossor (GEC) 6J5G / L63 (mislabled as 6C5G) arrived this week and I just finished testing and matching them.  Got a set of four in Telemachus.  I CAN'T STOP LISTENING to this amplifier.  My VC is singing so sweetly right now.  Everything I loved about the amp when using Tung Sol VT-94 as drivers has been met and surpassed with L63.  I really liked the L63 in my GOTL.  I absolutely love it in Telemachus paired with the EML 300B.  The tone is so rich and wet, the impact is visceral, and the detail is so palpable.  This amp is such a gem.  It's so unnecessary for my needs yet I can't see ever downsizing from this.  Anyone looking to purchase this amp do yourself a favor and make absolutely sure you have a DAC that is up to the task of feeding this beast.  It's not lost on me the supporting roles that my upgraded Onyx and SU-6 are playing in my sonic bliss.  Oh man, as I type a Stevie Ray Vaughan track has started in my playlist.  I was hoping to go to sleep, my body needs it, but alas I don't have the willpower to press STOP.  * I need help...*


Wrong kind of help.  Sorry.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Wrong kind of help.  Sorry.


My thoughts exactly 😆.


----------



## baronbeehive (Jun 26, 2022)

Velozity said:


> It's 2:20am on the east coast of the US.  I want to go to bed.  I REALLY want to go to sleep.  I can't.  I just....CAN'T!  My recent order of 10 Cossor (GEC) 6J5G / L63 (mislabled as 6C5G) arrived this week and I just finished testing and matching them.  Got a set of four in Telemachus.  I CAN'T STOP LISTENING to this amplifier.  My VC is singing so sweetly right now.  Everything I loved about the amp when using Tung Sol VT-94 as drivers has been met and surpassed with L63.  I really liked the L63 in my GOTL.  I absolutely love it in Telemachus paired with the EML 300B.  The tone is so rich and wet, the impact is visceral, and the detail is so palpable.  This amp is such a gem.  It's so unnecessary for my needs yet I can't see ever downsizing from this.  Anyone looking to purchase this amp do yourself a favor and make absolutely sure you have a DAC that is up to the task of feeding this beast.  It's not lost on me the supporting roles that my upgraded Onyx and SU-6 are playing in my sonic bliss.  Oh man, as I type a Stevie Ray Vaughan track has started in my playlist.  I was hoping to go to sleep, my body needs it, but alas I don't have the willpower to press STOP.   I need help...


Drop the Stevie Ray Vaughan... you need something more chilled out... perhaps like this:



👍.


----------



## Velozity

Zachik said:


> Man... where do you keep finding those?! 😯



Same source as our last buy!  Need a couple more?   



hpamdr said:


> 6C5G are predecessor and very close to 6J5G and L63. Usually you can use 6J5 in place of 6C5. Minor differences are bigger plate resistance (10 vs 7.7 KΩ)  and lesser transconductance ( 2 vs 2.6 mA/V) at operating point (va 250V /vg -8V). Usually tube manufacturer do not miss-label, they just indicate what the tube is and for early production of a newest tube they could just indicate the closest/most used compatible tube. In your case, if you can measure it you could be sure about 6C5 or L63 type.
> I personally like a lot 6C5G in place of regular 6J5 and NR73 in place of 6N7.
> 
> At the end the goal is to enjoy music and be astonished each time you turn the amp on !



Thanks for the spec details.  I don't have a way to trace the tube but I do have a tester and when tested as a 6C5 the needle exceeds the range on my Jackson 648-S (over 130%).  When tested as a 6J5 they fall back in line between 110%-125%.  Plus the internal construction exactly matches my other L63 ST tubes.  Like you said, they are probably from an early initial run of 6J5G/L63 and the manufacturer labeled them with the closest code that people would recognize.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

UntilThen said:


> Step into my world of organised mess and very quiet system.
> 
> Frontal shot. My beloved Axis Voicebox S speakers.
> 
> ...



damn you are good to arranging these set up


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Drop the Stevie Ray Vaughan... you need something more chilled out... perhaps like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 👍.




This sound really good out of Susvara and Odyssey.  



TheMiddleSky said:


> damn you are good to arranging these set up



It's the best I can do under the present circumstances. I prefer my rack system.


----------



## jonathan c

Velozity said:


> It's 2:20am on the east coast of the US.  I want to go to bed.  I REALLY want to go to sleep.  I can't.  I just....CAN'T!  My recent order of 10 Cossor (GEC) 6J5G / L63 (mislabled as 6C5G) arrived this week and I just finished testing and matching them.  Got a set of four in Telemachus.  I CAN'T STOP LISTENING to this amplifier.  My VC is singing so sweetly right now.  Everything I loved about the amp when using Tung Sol VT-94 as drivers has been met and surpassed with L63.  I really liked the L63 in my GOTL.  I absolutely love it in Telemachus paired with the EML 300B.  The tone is so rich and wet, the impact is visceral, and the detail is so palpable.  This amp is such a gem.  It's so unnecessary for my needs yet I can't see ever downsizing from this.  Anyone looking to purchase this amp do yourself a favor and make absolutely sure you have a DAC that is up to the task of feeding this beast.  It's not lost on me the supporting roles that my upgraded Onyx and SU-6 are playing in my sonic bliss.  Oh man, as I type a Stevie Ray Vaughan track has started in my playlist.  I was hoping to go to sleep, my body needs it, but alas I don't have the willpower to press STOP.   I need help...


You are on the East Coast…close enough…send Telemachus my way…🤗🤗😜🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> I wield the baton. Sometimes the whip.


Mansoner 😡 or Mansonee 😩 ?


----------



## DecentLevi (Jun 27, 2022)

mordy said:


> Haven't heard about the magnet test before - can you please elaborate?
> I have an N52 magnet that supposedly can pick up 50lbs with a flat surface.


I personally would be wary of trying magnets around radio tubes, for a risk of delicately balanced internals becoming dislodged. Has that been the experience of anyone who has tried that?


----------



## mordy

DecentLevi said:


> I personally would be wary of trying magnets around radio tubes, for a risk of delicately balanced internals becoming dislodged. Has that been the experience of anyone who has tried that?


Well, what I am describing now is not for the fainthearted and probably shouldn't be done, but I had to do something to save a Tung Sol BGRP tube (12SN7).
The tube is labeled Arcturus with a date code of 3/4 - perhaps April 1943. The little heat radiator clip above the top mica had come loose, and I did not want it to cause a short.
By taping on a little 4mm magnet on the top of the tube glass I was able to position the clip away from any internal structure.




It is a very small and not very strong magnet:



This inelegant contraption actually works - the tube glow is nice:



For some reason the addition of the magnet and the tape seems to magnify the tube glow for a spectacular night effect:



BTW, the other use I found for these little magnets (apart from refrigerator use) is to use them to connect test leads and wires.
Now, about the solution to a loose metal piece inside a tube the magnet may work, but I would be leery of using it long term - not worth it if something would happen to your equipment.
Homework: What are the differences between magnets rated N35, N42 and N52?
PS: Decided to test a very strong magnet that I have on a couple of tubes. This magnet is so strong that I have to wrestle it off a flat ferrous surface. I was worried that it might pull off the anode caps but on the two tubes I tried nothing happened - apparently the anode caps are not ferrous at all. Same thing with the tube pins - no magnetic attraction. However, the internal shrouds in the tubes were ferrous, but because of the distance from the glass to the inside shroud on ST type tubes there wasn't much of a pull.
This tube is suspended in the air, held by the magnet - looks scary, eh?



Don't worry, I only used tubes from my BTB (Busted Tube Box) - have about 20 such tubes...
In conclusion, I have no idea of the effect of a strong magnetic field on a tube, but I don't think that the tube will be damaged by a strong magnet.


----------



## LoryWiv

mordy said:


> Well, what I am describing now is not for the fainthearted and probably shouldn't be done, but I had to do something to save a Tung Sol BGRP tube (12SN7).
> The tube is labeled Arcturus with a date code of 3/4 - perhaps April 1943. The little heat radiator clip above the top mica had come loose, and I did not want it to cause a short.
> By taping on a little 4mm magnet on the top of the tube glass I was able to position the clip away from any internal structure.
> 
> ...


You are a brave soul, @mordy. Tube suspending mid-air as one attempts to re-position it's internal organs? And now for my next trick...


----------



## BzzzzzT

DecentLevi said:


> I personally would be wary of trying magnets around radio tubes, for a risk of delicately balanced internals becoming dislodged. Has that been the experience of anyone who has tried that?


I got this trick from Robert B. Tomer. He was considered the foremost expert on tube operation and service during the golden era of tubes. Mr. Tomer was charged with the task of determining why tubes fail for the US military and developing best practices regarding design and troubleshooting. He was the director and head of a large lab tasked with going through the millions of service records taken from every branch of the service. He was also consulted by major tube makers of the day regarding failures and changes to facilitate stability. He dealt with all the computers used by the military during the day. Each of these used 1000s of tubes and stability and troubleshooting was paramount. This trick comes from one of the books he wrote regarding tube failures and troubleshooting.


----------



## BzzzzzT (Jun 28, 2022)

mordy said:


> Well, what I am describing now is not for the fainthearted and probably shouldn't be done, but I had to do something to save a Tung Sol BGRP tube (12SN7).
> The tube is labeled Arcturus with a date code of 3/4 - perhaps April 1943. The little heat radiator clip above the top mica had come loose, and I did not want it to cause a short.
> By taping on a little 4mm magnet on the top of the tube glass I was able to position the clip away from any internal structure.
> 
> ...



I do not suggest taping things to the glass as it could effect the stability of the glass over time. Magnets are used simply as the test for interference as I stated. I don't really know what you guys are hoping to achieve??? You just need to put it in the general vicinity to check for changes in amplitude of the superimposed interference.


----------



## triod750

BzzzzzT said:


> I don't really know what you guys are hoping to achieve???


It was easy, by reading what Mordy wrote, to understand what he was trying to achieve; preventing a short from a loose clip  .


----------



## BzzzzzT

triod750 said:


> It was easy, by reading what Mordy wrote, to understand what he was trying to achieve; preventing a short from a loose clip  .


I missed the first part and read the 2nd part of the post, and this led to the confusion. I thought this was about using a magnet to check for interference and an attempt to use one to prevent it.


----------



## BzzzzzT

BzzzzzT said:


> I got this trick from Robert B. Tomer. He was considered the foremost expert on tube operation and service during the golden era of tubes. Mr. Tomer was charged with the task of determining why tubes fail for the US military and developing best practices regarding design and troubleshooting. He was the director and head of a large lab tasked with going through the millions of service records taken from every branch of the service. He was also consulted by major tube makers of the day regarding failures and changes to facilitate stability. He dealt with all the computers used by the military during the day. Each of these used 1000s of tubes and stability and troubleshooting was paramount. This trick comes from one of the books he wrote regarding tube failures and troubleshooting.


Sorry I mist


DecentLevi said:


> I personally would be wary of trying magnets around radio tubes, for a risk of delicately balanced internals becoming dislodged. Has that been the experience of anyone who has tried that?


Sorry I misread the post and thought you guys were talking about using magnets to test for interference. I should not stay up so late reading posts when I should be in bed.


----------



## BzzzzzT

mordy said:


> Well, what I am describing now is not for the fainthearted and probably shouldn't be done, but I had to do something to save a Tung Sol BGRP tube (12SN7).
> The tube is labeled Arcturus with a date code of 3/4 - perhaps April 1943. The little heat radiator clip above the top mica had come loose, and I did not want it to cause a short.
> By taping on a little 4mm magnet on the top of the tube glass I was able to position the clip away from any internal structure.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the confusing response. My monitor clipped the first part of your post and I saw only the 2nd part. I though you were talking about using the interference test. Late night confusion.


----------



## mordy

BzzzzzT said:


> Sorry for the confusing response. My monitor clipped the first part of your post and I saw only the 2nd part. I though you were talking about using the interference test. Late night confusion.


Would you mind describing how you do an interference test and how to interpret it?


----------



## mordy

BzzzzzT said:


> I do not suggest taping things to the glass as it could effect the stability of the glass over time. Magnets are used simply as the test for interference as I stated. I don't really know what you guys are hoping to achieve??? You just need to put it in the general vicinity to check for changes in amplitude of the superimposed interference.


I have seen writings (JACMusic) that tube coolers attached to the tube glass could affect the stability of the glass envelope because of different temperatures on the glass, leading to hairline cracks and eventual loss of vacuum. Don't have much experience with tube coolers so can't have an opinion. However, lots of old tubes have big paper stickers attached to them and they don't seem to do any harm. In the same vein I don't think that a little piece of scotch tape will damage the glass envelope.


----------



## Capunk

Hi again all, 
Previously I have a Hum noise issue that was very audible from my speaker when the pre-amp is on. 
I have tested various scenarios and tried many electric outlets in my house with no solutions avail. 
If @SonicTrance or anyone here has a solution to this, please do let me know. 
Cheers


----------



## Erwinatm (Jul 1, 2022)

Capunk said:


> Hi again all,
> Previously I have a Hum noise issue that was very audible from my speaker when the pre-amp is on.
> I have tested various scenarios and tried many electric outlets in my house with no solutions avail.
> If @SonicTrance or anyone here has a solution to this, please do let me know.
> Cheers




1. Is the hum also audible from headphone out?
2. Try to pull all conecting cables out -) RCA/XLR. Is it still humming?


----------



## UntilThen

Erwinatm said:


> 1. Is the hum also audible from headphone out?



A good question. One that I want to know as well. I want to know how the whole chain is set up. Connections from source to preamp to amp and speakers.


----------



## SonicTrance

Capunk said:


> Hi again all,
> Previously I have a Hum noise issue that was very audible from my speaker when the pre-amp is on.
> I have tested various scenarios and tried many electric outlets in my house with no solutions avail.
> If @SonicTrance or anyone here has a solution to this, please do let me know.
> Cheers



Have you tried different tubes? I also want to know if this hum is present at the headphone XLR output as well.


----------



## Capunk (Jul 1, 2022)

Erwinatm said:


> 1. Is the hum also audible from headphone out?
> 2. Try to pull all conecting cables out -) RCA/XLR. Is it still humming?


1. Yes, low gain very minimal but presence from my hd800, high gain slightly more audibl.
2. Done this experiment, Oblivion disconnected from all sources except power cable, noise still came out from the headphone out.

Also done this,
I have replaced all the stock tubes, EL81 and 6AT6, also the XLR & power cable and placed the amp with no nearby electronics except the power outlet. The noise is still there


----------



## Erwinatm (Jul 1, 2022)

Capunk said:


> 1. Yes, low gain very minimal but presence from my hd800, high gain slightly more audibl.
> 2. Done this experiment, Oblivion disconnected from all sources except power cable, noise still came out from the headphone out.
> 
> Also done this,
> I have replaced all the stock tubes, EL81 and 6AT6, also the XLR & power cable and placed the amp with no nearby electronics except the power outlet. The noise is still there


Could be ground loop, you can try :

- check your ground connection
- use power cable with no ground / floating. Try the floating ground cable also with your other eq : dac, streamer, cd etc . 1 equipment at a time OR
- plug it to different wall socket that has different MCB with the rest of your audio power source.

If it still there and loud, something is failing inside.

I see you have tried many options if the hum still persist then sonictrance is the man for you.

Hope this could help


----------



## senseitedj

If you are certain is a ground loop issue, and not an impedance or a tube-related problem, then getting this Ifi product might help.

Another fellow was having similar issue with his woo audio amp in another thread. This seems to have done the trick.


----------



## baronbeehive

Capunk said:


> 1. Yes, low gain very minimal but presence from my hd800, high gain slightly more audibl.
> 2. Done this experiment, Oblivion disconnected from all sources except power cable, noise still came out from the headphone out.
> 
> Also done this,
> I have replaced all the stock tubes, EL81 and 6AT6, also the XLR & power cable and placed the amp with no nearby electronics except the power outlet. The noise is still there


Is it OK with your power amp out of the chain, ie just Oblivion as power amp?


----------



## Capunk

baronbeehive said:


> Is it OK with your power amp out of the chain, ie just Oblivion as power amp?


Unfortunately i need that power amp to power my speakers, and i didn’t have the speaker out feature in my oblivion.
I’ll head back to the shop tomorrow and see if the problems still persist over there.


----------



## BzzzzzT

Capunk said:


> 1. Yes, low gain very minimal but presence from my hd800, high gain slightly more audibl.
> 2. Done this experiment, Oblivion disconnected from all sources except power cable, noise still came out from the headphone out.
> 
> Also done this,
> I have replaced all the stock tubes, EL81 and 6AT6, also the XLR & power cable and placed the amp with no nearby electronics except the power outlet. The noise is still there


As others have stated I could be a ground-loop. Do you have any audio equipment on the same circuit? I have also had this problem before. I have been using this brand of isolation transformers to lift the ground for several years. They also are better than a power conditioners IMO and I notice a slight improvement in sound.

UMI Isolation Transformers


----------



## BzzzzzT

mordy said:


> I have seen writings (JACMusic) that tube coolers attached to the tube glass could affect the stability of the glass envelope because of different temperatures on the glass, leading to hairline cracks and eventual loss of vacuum. Don't have much experience with tube coolers so can't have an opinion. However, lots of old tubes have big paper stickers attached to them and they don't seem to do any harm. In the same vein I don't think that a little piece of scotch tape will damage the glass envelope.



I probably overreacted since the tube your using is a signal tube and the heat would be much lower than a power tube. The magnet could cause problems due to it being hotter under the magnet. But since this tube already has problems and the bulb temperature would be low, I would not think this would be too big a deal. 

After reading Tomer's book, I would guess tube coolers could affect the glass in a negative way. The point where the metal meets the glass results in two different temperatures causing strain. This would cause differential cooling. Glass has a very low heat conductivity. A sharp heat gradient would develop at the point of contact with the colder metal and the warmer glass. This would cause strain. The worst thing for glass is bent pins Glass cold flows so it can develop strains that exceed it's elastic limit. Overtime the strain of something on the glass can cause cracks or failure. Glass can also develop degradation from really high voltage in certain situations, but this is not an issue with audio amps.

A really strong magnet could possibly cause the cathode sleeve to move as it is made of nickle to facilitate electrolysis with the barium oxide on the cathode to create emission. I don't think the anode or supports would move as it's fairly well secured and the heather would be unaffected as its made of tungsten with an aluminum oxide insulation covering the heater wires. I have no clue how the heater wires would be affected by a really strong magnet. I don't think there is much to worry about.


----------



## BzzzzzT (Jul 2, 2022)

mordy said:


> Would you mind describing how you do an interference test and how to interpret it?



This test was to check for electrostatic or electromagnetic interference. You just put a strong magnet in the vicinity close to the tube. If there is a change in amplitude in the superimposed signal that is being heard or seen on the scope, you would know that this is caused by this type of interference and not a tube defect like heater to cathode or heater to grid leakage for example. These tests were important because almost all the early electronics were designed by people without a formal education and many mistakes were often made in designs that could lead to interference. For example not having a grid stopper resistor to block radio frequencies or prevent oscillations. An example would be old Fender guitar amps. They did not have the college educated EEs that we have today. Many of the people who designed tube equipment during that time, were children of the great depression who lacked the means to pay for an education.

Robert Tomer the worlds foremost expert on tubes in service was also self-taught and did not receive a formal education. He talks about in his book how lots of the equipment used by Americans everyday was designed by servicemen who received their training during the war. This equipment often had design mistakes in their circuits.

As much of the equipment back in the day was designed by servicemen who got their electronics education from serving in the military during WW2 or through courses. It could have many unintentional errors or be very dangerous. Much of the US and the rest of the world was still being electrified. My family was an example of how most got an electronics education during that period. My Uncle Paul was a radioman during WW2 and received a bronze medal for heroism for repairing radio equipment when no others would, while taking direct fire from Nazi machine guns in France and saving thousands of lives as a result of bringing this equipment back online. He told me that electronics took his mind off the war, as it traumatized him. His skill from the service, later led him to become the chief railroad engineer for his region. My aunt's husband who we affectionately called Uncle Al, was the first TV and radio repairman in Arizona. Those old TVs and radios were crazy and he had to fix lots of design mistakes. He was often grumpy and short tempered from a lifetime of doing this. His favorite word was goddammit and he liked a stiff drink or two at the end of the day. I remember him teaching me to solder and my fondest memory of the time I spend with him was building an old battery operated Heathkit Code Oscillator under his guidance when I was 5. I would ride around on my trike doing some morse code he taught me, in an attempt to impress him. He was born in 1902 and was self-taught and got his first job as a telegraph operator.


----------



## iFi audio

senseitedj said:


> If you are certain is a ground loop issue, and not an impedance or a tube-related problem, then getting this Ifi product might help.
> 
> Another fellow was having similar issue with his woo audio amp in another thread. This seems to have done the trick.



Thanks for mentioning our GND Defender. It's a simple device that will remove any noise related to ground loops, of course as long as they're the problem. But if a any buzz is heard on drivers of speakers or cans, it most likely is a ground loop


----------



## mordy

BzzzzzT said:


> This test was to check for electrostatic or electromagnetic interference. You just put a strong magnet in the vicinity close to the tube. If there is a change in amplitude in the superimposed signal that is being heard or seen on the scope, you would know that this is caused by this type of interference and not a tube defect like heater to cathode or heater to grid leakage for example. These tests were important because almost all the early electronics were designed by people without a formal education and many mistakes were often made in designs that could lead to interference. For example not having a grid stopper resistor to block radio frequencies or prevent oscillations. An example would be old Fender guitar amps. They did not have the college educated EEs that we have today. Many of the people who designed tube equipment during that time, were children of the great depression who lacked the means to pay for an education.
> 
> Robert Tomer the worlds foremost expert on tubes in service was also self-taught and did not receive a formal education. He talks about in his book how lots of the equipment used by Americans everyday was designed by servicemen who received their training during the war. This equipment often had design mistakes in their circuits.
> 
> As much of the equipment back in the day was designed by servicemen who got their electronics education from serving in the military during WW2 or through courses. It could have many unintentional errors or be very dangerous. Much of the US and the rest of the world was still being electrified. My family was an example of how most got an electronics education during that period. My Uncle Paul was a radioman during WW2 and received a bronze medal for heroism for repairing radio equipment when no others would, while taking direct fire from Nazi machine guns in France and saving thousands of lives as a result of bringing this equipment back online. He told me that electronics took his mind off the war, as it traumatized him. His skill from the service, later led him to become the chief railroad engineer for his region. My aunt's husband who we affectionately called Uncle Al, was the first TV and radio repairman in Arizona. Those old TVs and radios were crazy and he had to fix lots of design mistakes. He was often grumpy and short tempered from a lifetime of doing this. His favorite word was goddammit and he liked a stiff drink or two at the end of the day. I remember him teaching me to solder and my fondest memory of the time I spend with him was building an old battery operated Heathkit Code Oscillator under his guidance when I was 5. I would ride around on my trike doing some morse code he taught me, in an attempt to impress him. He was born in 1902 and was self-taught and got his first job as a telegraph operator.


Thank you very much for your insightful answer and the historical perspective!


----------



## SonicTrance

Here's a Telemachus complete!
This one has the dual psu option, Yamamoto sockets, Mundorf caps, Khozmo attenuator, impedance switch, big VU meters and a nice (huge) old school looking volume knob!


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 8, 2022)

What is the dual PSU option? Amp looks beautiful as usual.

230v. Is that bound for me?


----------



## senseitedj (Jul 8, 2022)

SonicTrance said:


> Here's a Telemachus complete!
> This one has the dual psu option, Yamamoto sockets, Mundorf caps, Khozmo attenuator, impedance switch, big VU meters and a nice (huge) old school looking volume knob!



very nice, what is the procedure to switch between the tube and SS PSU?

Do we have to turn the amp off and wait a few minutes for the tubes to power down? or could we just flip the PSU toggle switch when it is on? I am expecting that more likely the former is true.

Happy and excited for the lucky owner!


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> What is the dual PSU option? Amp looks beautiful as usual.
> 
> 230v. Is that bound for me?


Thanks!
You can switch between tube rectification or regulated SS rectification.

It's actually bound for the UK!



senseitedj said:


> very nice, what is the procedure to switch between the tube and SS PSU?
> 
> Do we have to turn the amp off and wait a few minutes for the tubes to power down? or could we just flip the PSU toggle switch when it is on? I am expecting that more likely the former is true.
> 
> Happy and excited for the lucky owner!


Thanks!
Here's the procedure copied from the instructions:

*Dual psu*
If you have this add-on there're two toggle switches on the back panel. Toggle up for tube
rectification or down for regulated SS rectification.
Important! Wait for 5 minutes before changing those switches after power off. This is to let the
capacitors discharge. So, don't power off and immediately toggle the switches. Always wait 5 minutes
first! When in SS mode you can leave the tube rectifier in the amp should you wish. It’ll be completely
off.


----------



## Thaddy (Jul 8, 2022)

Very cool!  I like the idea of switchable tube or solid state rectification.  It's exciting to see a new amp show up.  I'm sure the new owner is looking forward to receiving it.  @SonicTrance , don't be surprised if I email you about this for my amp


----------



## senseitedj

SonicTrance said:


> Thanks!
> You can switch between tube rectification or regulated SS rectification.
> 
> It's actually bound for the UK!
> ...



Nice, thanks for your response. 

Ref to the tube rectifier, can it accept most rectifier tubes ie. 274B, U52, 5AR4, GZ34 etc. ? does changing it influence the sound significantly for Telemachus?


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> You can switch between tube rectification or regulated SS rectification.



Very nice ! May be the first time I've seen in a tube amp.


----------



## UntilThen

Telemachus will drive Susvara very well, just like Odyssey. It's endless winter nights that I've enjoyed Susvara with Odyssey. After so many setups over almost 7 years, this is undoubtedly the best I've heard.


----------



## SonicTrance

senseitedj said:


> Nice, thanks for your response.
> 
> Ref to the tube rectifier, can it accept most rectifier tubes ie. 274B, U52, 5AR4, GZ34 etc. ? does changing it influence the sound significantly for Telemachus?


Yes you can use any 5V rectifier with a heater current 3A or less and 200+mA of output current. 
The rectifier tubes have different amount of voltage drop across them which will alter the operating points for the audio tubes. Sound will change some with operating point.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Yes you can use any 5V rectifier with a heater current 3A or less and 200+mA of output current.
> The rectifier tubes have different amount of voltage drop across them which will alter the operating points for the audio tubes. Sound will change some with operating point.



Telemachus and Odyssey can share tube rectifiers.


----------



## UntilThen

The beauty of tube rectification on Odyssey with Susvara is a very quiet background. The choice of rectifiers I can use is interesting. For example the Cossor 53ku used here presents warmth and lovely bass to contrast with the neutral / bright tone of the Telefunken EL156.


----------



## gibosi

SonicTrance said:


> Yes you can use any 5V rectifier with a heater current 3A or less and 200+mA of output current.
> The rectifier tubes have different amount of voltage drop across them which will alter the operating points for the audio tubes. Sound will change some with operating point.



This allows for a very good selection of tube rectifiers. To my knowledge there are very few 5volt rectifiers that require more than 3A to heat. And 200+mA output current is low enough that you can run shouldered 5U4G.

For comparison, the Glenn OTL can provide up to 5A, but in my experience, 5V rectifiers requiring more than 3A are nothing to get excited about. And the Glenn is quite power hungry, requiring 250+mA of output current, so no shouldered 5U4Gs.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> What is the dual PSU option? Amp looks beautiful as usual.
> 
> 230v. Is that bound for me?


You have electricity there now?  Dang.  That's awesome!   🤣  🤣


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> You have electricity there now?  Dang.  That's awesome!   🤣  🤣


Using nuclear now. Are you still on coal?


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Using nuclear now. Are you still on coal?


No, just lightning and kites…


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Using nuclear now. Are you still on coal?


Hamsters and wheels.  Really surprising how long they can go when you put Red Bull in their water bottle...


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Hamsters and wheels.  Really surprising how long they can go when you put Red Bull in their water bottle...



Hampsters has not let me down whereas your windmill stops when there’s no wind.


----------



## Velozity

SonicTrance said:


> Here's a Telemachus complete!
> This one has the dual psu option, Yamamoto sockets, Mundorf caps, Khozmo attenuator, impedance switch, big VU meters and a nice (huge) old school looking volume knob!


  Very very nice!  Now my Telemachus will have a brother across the pond!  I absolutely love that volume knob.  Please PM me the source!  Also, why do those output transformers look bigger than mine, lol??


----------



## UntilThen

I can guess whose Telemachus it is. 😗


----------



## SonicTrance

Velozity said:


> Very very nice!  Now my Telemachus will have a brother across the pond!  I absolutely love that volume knob.  Please PM me the source!  Also, why do those output transformers look bigger than mine, lol??


The transformers are bigger than yours because yours are custom made. They don’t need to be bigger than that but Sowter doesn’t offer custom services anymore.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> No, just lightning and kites…


... and steam. So this has to be permanently moored outside of UT's house:






🙂.


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> Yes you can use any 5V rectifier with a heater current 3A or less and 200+mA of output current.
> The rectifier tubes have different amount of voltage drop across them which will alter the operating points for the audio tubes. Sound will change some with operating point.


Will be interesting to see the effects on sound, whoever has the amp in the UK... not me sadly! My amp's makers, the LD, opted for SS rectification.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jul 10, 2022)

I had an exciting time all week trying my new output tubes Psvane KT88 T mk2 'TII' imported from China brand new and tested / matched. Out of all my input tubes, I found the black metal RCA 6N7 (VT-96) to sound best which I can run as a set of two in my special amp configuration (in the 6J5 sockets); then with RCA black metal 6J5 coming in second - above all 9-pin octal mini's, GEC L63; and a couple 6SN7's sounding great. Don't get me wrong the GEC L63 is no slouch, it was just a matter of synergy of which these seem to be picky with. Overall this Psvane, which is said to be the best of new production KT88's sounded quite full, resolving, great resolution and very good balance of all elements!

I then came back to the EL12 Spez (Tesla) output tubes to compare with some of my favorite input tube combos on the former. Immediately I'm elevated into a new audio world, where speed, clarity, and resolution are king and 'analogue' reigns supreme. Maybe a bit less bass quantity, but better quality and PRaT... making the Psvane KT88 sound a bit 'crappy' at this point. Next up was one of my two pairs of NOS tested / matched EL39 output tubes and folks this tube is a force to be reckoned with. A downright enchanting sound! All the former attributes but now with a slightly sweeter, smoother sound and more well rounded sense of timing and tone. Also these do and have had the quietest background of all my tubes, even more than the new KT88 and EL12 Spez.

Those tube designer folks back in the 1940's really had something going, and may not ever be outclassed.





Disclaimer: The above are IMO, and my opinion is likely to change depending on up/downstream gear upgrades.

PS - ignore the white ferrite clamps on the EL39's. They're not really doing anything on that placement, but I left them on for evaluation.


----------



## Isaacc7

The dual power supply is an interesting feature. My priors tell me it shouldn't make much difference but I guess there's only one way to find out, will be interesting to hear about any differences that are heard. 

@SonicTrance really is a flexible builder. He certainly has been accommodating to me! A huge number of variations have been built so far but I don't think anyone has done anything with a pet bugaboo of mine, the volume control. It can have a big impact on the sound, it's a variable resistor that the signal has to pass through after all. I'll get to the sound quality aspect in a second but I'm surprised I haven't seen any remote controlled volume so far. That is a must have for me. Even if I were using headphones the headphone amp would be in my system rack. I'm not going to walk over to the system to adjust the volume. What am I, some kind of animal?

This post summarizes the different kinds of volume controls out there. He makes an LDR based product so he is biased towards that. 

https://tortugaaudio.com/whats-wrong-with-audio-volume-control

There are remote controlled stepped attenuators, my Freya+ has one. And transformer based volume controls can even add gain as well as attenuate the signal. I avoided the whole problem with my Ultrasonic Studios amp by not having a volume control at all. If I did, I might explore the possibility of using an LDR based remote controlled one. They aren't all that expensive https://tortugaaudio.com/product-category/diy-preamp-components/ and are bound to offer an improvement. If I hit the lottery I might try something like https://intactaudio.com/atten.html but with the cheapest one starting at $720 it would be quite an investment. 

Anyway, just thought I'd share my audiofool opinion on another potential tweak for your custom amp.


----------



## Capunk

Quick update on my situation : 
I have found a temporary solution (despite I didn't have a chance to visit the shop to test it over there) to buzzing noise over pre-amp mode, 
So basically due to bad wiring/electricity in my house, Oblivion constantly buzzing through pre-amp mode and even from headphones out. 
I tried iFi Groundhog+ and tested in different electricity outlet with no differences. 

But today, I tested with an electronic stabilizer (Automatic Voltage Regulator (AVR)) and the audible buzzing noise is gone! 
just to make sure I'm not insane, I also switch back to the normal electrical outlet and the noise is back. 
However just one catch, there was a subtle noise that was normally found on other amps if you set the gain to high, this was minimally audible through speakers but hard to distinguish if I use headphones (HD800 or Diana V2). 
It's not completely silent but this is so far the best progress with this amp. 

Current test setup : 
- Denafrips Ares II DAC
- Audiolab M-PWR Power Amplifier
- Audiowalle TP2000 Power Conditioner
- APC AVR / Stabilizer
- Siemens EL81 tubes x 4 / Teonex 6AT6 tubes x 2


----------



## UntilThen

I'm just so glad that electricity down under is so bloody good.


----------



## mordy

Capunk said:


> Quick update on my situation :
> I have found a temporary solution (despite I didn't have a chance to visit the shop to test it over there) to buzzing noise over pre-amp mode,
> So basically due to bad wiring/electricity in my house, Oblivion constantly buzzing through pre-amp mode and even from headphones out.
> I tried iFi Groundhog+ and tested in different electricity outlet with no differences.
> ...


“If they make it, it hums.” This kind of noise when the gain is very high and too loud to listen is a reality by me. If tubes are quiet at such unlistenable levels it is an exception.
But I don’t view it as a problem because you normally cannot hear it, and even if it occasionally is noticeable, it is usually masked by the music.
Apparently, in some countries the electric grid is much more quiet and this is less of a problem; could also be related to 110/220V grids.


----------



## baronbeehive

It is possible that it may be picking up noise that is not filtered out as it would be by lower gain and greater GNFB, ie. the amp is supersensitive to frequencies that would not normally be a problem.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jul 17, 2022)

I've really got my mojo on now. Incoming yesterday was Chord Electronics Mojo 2. I'm getting a SPECTACULAR, even 3D experience, and this is a master of all aspects! Tried with headphones directly, but with the Finyssey amp the experience is taken to a full new level in every dimension. Coming from an iFi DSD Black Label it's no comparison, and by my distant memory of the Chord Qutest it comes darn close, and at around 1/2 the price, not to mention ultra portable. Powered by my custom DC LPS and fed ultra pure digital coaxial signal with my Audio-GD DI-20 (DDC / digital interface) and a series of 2 USB purifiers it's getting along mightily well. My HD-600's have never sounded so good.


----------



## DecentLevi

(So far) my favorite combos by far revolve around EL11 as drivers - I'm enthralled with the EL11 input + EL38 output combination. Absolutely holographic, sweet, organic, detailed extended, and slams damnnn hard.

Though I had a bit of a scare yesterday with this combination. An actual fast clicking sound gradually morphed into a random static sound, then next power-on it became a full-time loud hiss which was all on the left channel. After hours of troubleshooting with various tube combinations, it was discovered that @Deyan 's adapter sockets (EL11 to KT66) were causing the distortion from dirty contacts. Tried again today after a thorough cleaning of socket connections with metal scraping and rubbing alcohol with a thin Q-tip and everything works perfectly now. Deyan you are the pro at custom adapters of almost any kind, but I'd strongly recommend cleaning the contacts before sending out your adapters, because some of the connections were fairly nasty. But they work very well and your service is top notch and I've had many great adapters from you, so I will still keep coming back.

This is one of my quietest tube combinations in terms of amp hum, but I also get a slight buzzing sound on either channel that drifts from time to time. It's a somewhat common byproduct of many tubes, and slightly flicking on the tube will quell this semi-bright yet moderately quiet buzzing sound for a second or so until it comes back. I wonder if external tube dampeners or absorption rings help with this? Warm-up for 10+min. seems to reduce it also. Maybe @mordy or @MIKELAP would have an idea.


----------



## mordy

DecentLevi said:


> (So far) my favorite combos by far revolve around EL11 as drivers - I'm enthralled with the EL11 input + EL38 output combination. Absolutely holographic, sweet, organic, detailed extended, and slams damnnn hard.
> 
> Though I had a bit of a scare yesterday with this combination. An actual fast clicking sound gradually morphed into a random static sound, then next power-on it became a full-time loud hiss which was all on the left channel. After hours of troubleshooting with various tube combinations, it was discovered that @Deyan 's adapter sockets (EL11 to KT66) were causing the distortion from dirty contacts. Tried again today after a thorough cleaning of socket connections with metal scraping and rubbing alcohol with a thin Q-tip and everything works perfectly now. Deyan you are the pro at custom adapters of almost any kind, but I'd strongly recommend cleaning the contacts before sending out your adapters, because some of the connections were fairly nasty. But they work very well and your service is top notch and I've had many great adapters from you, so I will still keep coming back.
> 
> This is one of my quietest tube combinations in terms of amp hum, but I also get a slight buzzing sound on either channel that drifts from time to time. It's a somewhat common byproduct of many tubes, and slightly flicking on the tube will quell this semi-bright yet moderately quiet buzzing sound for a second or so until it comes back. I wonder if external tube dampeners or absorption rings help with this? Warm-up for 10+min. seems to reduce it also. Maybe @mordy or @MIKELAP would have an idea.


I don't have much faith in tube dampers and absorption rings. As you mentioned, cleaning the pins and contacts sometimes works wonders. Sometimes just switching the tubes right to left and vice versa helps - don't know why.
It also pays to see if something in the environment brings on the electrical noise - a portable phone, computer, charger,  etc.


----------



## DecentLevi

I got an old favorite headphone I used to own, ATH (Audio Technica) r70x, thinking it would pair better with this beast of an amp than one I had years before. And BOY WAS I RIGHT!!! I make no reservations in saying this sound is downright MIRACULOUS! Coming from a Senn. HD-600 (even with silver cable nonetheless), I'm now getting a spacious and delightfully 3D sound, snappy drums galore and more micro details. Overall a sweeter and faster sound with more emphasis on soundstage, as if the HD-650 and 600's really do have a veil - which has been lifted here, as well as my senses. I now may be able to hear the microphone type / placement, and just may be be getting a touch of heaven.

Of course I'm not proclaiming this to be a giant killer, but these certainly tout mighty bang for the buck (around $300). As an Audio Technica though it may not be for everyone, retaining some of their house sound of slightly off-kilter upper highs and treble (and a slight nod towards bright, but with great mids and bass), but IMO it's done in a pleasing way for a nice change of pace from the traditional strictly linear sound. 

Comes with a whopping 9-foot cable and I also added 6 industrial quality ferrite clamps Star-Tec brand; 3 high and 3 lower frequency attenuation ratings, and to me it really opened everything up and brought the dynamics more into proper focus. Just as a temporary setup with a new custom XLR cable on the way.


----------



## DecentLevi

Much of the enjoyment of my Ultrasonic Studios "Finyssey" (Odyssey-Infinity hybrid) in recent weeks has also been thanks to the choice of dampening I've settled on. Coming from a "large" set of Bright Star IsoNode plus 50 duro sorbothane sheet, I was already getting improved sound in several areas but the size was so small it was getting squished under the Ultrasonic amp. So here's what I went with:

Bright Star IsoNode size extra large +
70 duro sorbothane damping film

After a few hours experimenting with combinations of either sorbothane type or either feet size alone or in combinations, I got immediately noticeable differences in sound ranging from dull to bright, flabby, etc. But (to me), my hunch was right on the above pairing of isolation feet and damping film. The result could very well be different for you but for me it's bringing all around improvements most notably depth of realism and dynamics handling.


----------



## baronbeehive

DecentLevi said:


> I got an old favorite headphone I used to own, ATH (Audio Technica) r70x, thinking it would pair better with this beast of an amp than one I had years before. And BOY WAS I RIGHT!!! I make no reservations in saying this sound is downright MIRACULOUS! Coming from a Senn. HD-600 (even with silver cable nonetheless), I'm now getting a spacious and delightfully 3D sound, snappy drums galore and more micro details. Overall a sweeter and faster sound with more emphasis on soundstage, as if the HD-650 and 600's really do have a veil - which has been lifted here, as well as my senses. I now may be able to hear the microphone type / placement, and just may be be getting a touch of heaven.


Sounds good! Yep I always preferred my Audio Technica to the Senny HD600.


----------



## Thaddy

Curious if the new Telemachus owner has received the amp?  Looking forward to seeing more pictures and impressions of @SonicTrance amps!  While I wait patiently for my custom Odyssey, I also ordered a pair of Atrium LTD's in Cocobolo.  I expect the ZMF's will pair nicely with the Odyssey.


----------



## DecentLevi

It's a hot summer here and no AC for me, up to 85(F) in my room. Is it necessary to have a fan blowing on the tubes if it's that hot? I'm assuming that's above the recommended ambient heat level for most tubes, so that's what I've been doing.


----------



## UntilThen

Fan or ac is necessary in Summer for tubes and humans.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Fan or ac is necessary in Summer for tubes and humans.


 dry your clothes, sear your steak, roast insides all-in-one.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> dry your clothes, sear your steak, roast insides all-in-one.



Or go nude swimming in Bondi.


----------



## mordy

DecentLevi said:


> It's a hot summer here and no AC for me, up to 85(F) in my room. Is it necessary to have a fan blowing on the tubes if it's that hot? I'm assuming that's above the recommended ambient heat level for most tubes, so that's what I've been doing.


You don’t want your amp to get hotter than 80C which could cause damage to electronic components. 
I always try to keep my tube amps cool and I bought an inexpensive infrared thermometer to measure the temperature. Although the outside chassis is cooler than the inside of the amp, there should be a good correlation of just a couple of degrees between the inside and the outside temperature of the amp after the amp has warmed up.
The easiest way for me to cool the amps is to buy inexpensive USB powered cooling fans and rig them up to blow on the chassis and especially on the transformers. The fans are very quiet and inexpensive and come in 3" and 4" models:
AC Infinity MULTIFAN S7, Quiet Dual 120mm USB Fan​Look it up on Amazon  for the best price - 3" is $16 and 4" $20 for a pair. It has a speed controller with three speeds and all you need is a cellphone type 2A charger.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jul 28, 2022)

Thanks for your input folks. My Ultrasonic Studios amp is well crafted, and is never the culprit of heat, lukewarm is the hottest the transformers or chassis has ever gotten. Luckily the tubes are on the exterior. Just wondering if since my ambient air temperature is like 15° F hotter than standard temperatures - would this likely cause an issue with one of my tubes?

I guess since I don't have an infrared thermometer I should use fans when it's that hot just in case, but the only one I have is a huge room fan blowing from the other side of the room and it's  medium noisy. There is absolutely no position or space above the amp to connect an external fan, the amp being on a flat single level table.

PS - I'm getting nearly unrivaled sonic prowess from a good pair of black metal RCA 6N7 (VT-96). These are highly underrated input tubes,  and are cheap. They can run as one or two tubes depending on your setup, and for me I can run either one with an adapter or two without. They have a way with dynamics and bass definition that I have yet to experience ANYWHERE else, and really do everything else right too. They may need adapters depending on your amp. Anyone interested, just ask here and I'll let you know, because there is a specific lettering that is better than others; but the most important thing is to get them matched and well tested.


----------



## Isaacc7

mordy said:


> You don’t want your amp to get hotter than 80C which could cause damage to electronic components.
> I always try to keep my tube amps cool and I bought an inexpensive infrared thermometer to measure the temperature. Although the outside chassis is cooler than the inside of the amp, there should be a good correlation of just a couple of degrees between the inside and the outside temperature of the amp after the amp has warmed up.
> The easiest way for me to cool the amps is to buy inexpensive USB powered cooling fans and rig them up to blow on the chassis and especially on the transformers. The fans are very quiet and inexpensive and come in 3" and 4" models:
> AC Infinity MULTIFAN S7, Quiet Dual 120mm USB Fan​Look it up on Amazon  for the best price - 3" is $16 and 4" $20 for a pair. It has a speed controller with three speeds and all you need is a cellphone type 2A charger.


I very much doubt that the tubes will care about 85 degree temps. That doesn't seem very hot to me. I'd be much more worried about my comfort with the tubes adding to the temperature in the room lol.


----------



## Thaddy

Isaacc7 said:


> I very much doubt that the tubes will care about 85 degree temps. That doesn't seem very hot to me. I'd be much more worried about my comfort with the tubes adding to the temperature in the room lol.


Yeah just think about what these tubes were designed for.  I'm pretty sure TV's, radios, radar, and super computers in the 40's and 50's operated at temperatures higher than 85 degrees F.


----------



## jonathan c

Thaddy said:


> Yeah just think about what these tubes were designed for.  I'm pretty sure TV's, radios, radar, and super computers in the 40's and 50's operated at temperatures higher than 85 degrees F.


Plus, using ENIAC (Electronic Numerical Integrator And Computer: 1945) with 17,000+ tubes as an example, the sheer proximity of  tubes to each other added to the ambient temperature.


----------



## bcowen

Thaddy said:


> Yeah just think about what these tubes were designed for.  I'm pretty sure TV's, radios, radar, and super computers in the 40's and 50's operated at temperatures higher than 85 degrees F.


That, and how many homes had AC back in the 40's and 50's?   @UntilThen would probably know....from experience.  🤣


----------



## LoryWiv

Isaacc7 said:


> I very much doubt that the tubes will care about 85 degree temps. That doesn't seem very hot to me. I'd be much more worried about my comfort with the tubes adding to the temperature in the room lol.


Exactly, but the amp. that houses them may be less impervious to high temperatures. Socket savers to elevate the tunes above amp. chassis may help a bit as well as fans if needed.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That, and how many homes had AC back in the 40's and 50's?   @UntilThen would probably know....from experience.  🤣


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


>


Maybe we should start a GoFundMe to buy @UntilThen some paint?  He already has a skylight...   🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Maybe we should start a GoFundMe to buy @UntilThen some paint?  He already has a skylight...   🤣


…and through that skylight he beholds _Carolina Blue!…_


----------



## mordy

Thaddy said:


> Yeah just think about what these tubes were designed for.  I'm pretty sure TV's, radios, radar, and super computers in the 40's and 50's operated at temperatures higher than 85 degrees F.


Let me clarify - it is not the tubes that can be damaged by high ambient room temperature; some tubes are rated for 300C max operation. What I meant is the electronics inside the amp. It is my understanding that some electrolytic components (if they are used in the amp) are rated at max 80C (176F).


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


>


That’s my Tudor Castle. Soundstage is gigantic. Should sample the church organ bass.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


>


I think I saw that in an estate agents window described as "bijou period residence, quiet locality, panoramic views, extensive grounds, character construction in eco friendly materials.. (wood, mostly rotten), it's isolation would suit person with hobbies such as hifi, bass head would be ideal, preferably Australian as they like to pump up the volume on occasion. The only downside is a tendency for the wood construction to burn due to the prevalent forest fires in the region."

Sorry, didn't mean to joke about forest fires.


----------



## baronbeehive

DecentLevi said:


> PS - I'm getting nearly unrivaled sonic prowess from a good pair of black metal RCA 6N7 (VT-96). These are highly underrated input tubes,  and are cheap. They can run as one or two tubes depending on your setup, and for me I can run either one with an adapter or two without. They have a way with dynamics and bass definition that I have yet to experience ANYWHERE else, and really do everything else right too. They may need adapters depending on your amp. Anyone interested, just ask here and I'll let you know, because there is a specific lettering that is better than others; but the most important thing is to get them matched and well tested.


I've always liked RCA's but yet to find the black plates. I agree about their qualities, but they're often overlooked.


----------



## OctavianH

I also consider 6N7 to be exceptional inputs for UltraSonic amps. I have many, use them often and bought them for nothing. I am glad others share my opinion.
It is true I prefer the glass types instead of full metal, but recently I discover more and more full metal tubes which sound excellent. I can use them via adapter in the 6SN7 slot or if I have a pair in the 6J5 slots directly. The difference is that in the 6J5 slot triodes are in parallel, running at 2mA while on 6SN7 slot they are at 4mA. I never really understood the sonic difference between these 2 cases, but of course it might be something. 6N7 is incredible and RCA are some of my favourites.


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> I also consider 6N7 to be exceptional inputs for UltraSonic amps. I have many, use them often and bought them for nothing. I am glad others share my opinion.
> It is true I prefer the glass types instead of full metal, but recently I discover more and more full metal tubes which sound excellent. I can use them via adapter in the 6SN7 slot or if I have a pair in the 6J5 slots directly. The difference is that in the 6J5 slot triodes are in parallel, running at 2mA while on 6SN7 slot they are at 4mA. I never really understood the sonic difference between these 2 cases, but of course it might be something. 6N7 is incredible and RCA are some of my favourites.


That RP RCA is the same construction as the 14F7 RCA that I have used in place of a 12AX7 on my APPJ amp and liked a lot, but still not found a black plate though.


----------



## senseitedj (Jul 31, 2022)

Just went to CanJam London yesterday. Since we all love our tube amps here, thought I'd showcase the tube amps that was in the exhibition.

There was a $100,000 set up with Hifiman Shang-ri la but my favourite is the CRBN with the STAX tube amp, and the Auris Nirvana with the Meze Elites.

Had goosebumps and almost shud a tear with the Shang-ri la setup listening to Pink Floyd's time album, but this is beyond what I can realistically afford

The Susvara and the Feliks Envy was great, and sounded like a fast SS amp with a touch of the tube softness. The tubes used is similar to that of the beloved Telemachus, but haven't heard the tele so don't know how similar they will sound. The Auris Nirvana with EL34 sounded more the tube-sound I was accustomed to with great warmth, impact, noticable decay but still have good speed and doing well with the technicalities.

You dont need 100k to reach audio nirvana.


----------



## mfgillia

senseitedj said:


> Just went to CanJam London yesterday. Since we all love our tube amps here, thought I'd showcase the tube amps that was in the exhibition.
> 
> There was a $100,000 set up with Hifiman Shang-ri la but my favourite is the CRBN with the STAX tube amp, and the Auris Nirvana with the Meze Elites.
> 
> ...


Did you also get a chance to check out the Zahl HM-1? It seems to be getting a ton of attention and hype since it's debut in Germany a few months back..


----------



## senseitedj

mfgillia said:


> Did you also get a chance to check out the Zahl HM-1? It seems to be getting a ton of attention and hype since it's debut in Germany a few months back..



Unfortunately no, I could not find these guys yesterday. but I also found the spirit grand torino set-up


----------



## mfgillia

senseitedj said:


> Unfortunately no, I could not find these guys yesterday. but I also found the spirit grand torino set-up


What did you think of the Spirit? Heard Raal's upcoming CA-1A got a ton of positive impressions yesterday with some stating on par with Susvara at roughly half the price.


----------



## senseitedj

mfgillia said:


> What did you think of the Spirit? Heard Raal's upcoming CA-1A got a ton of positive impressions yesterday with some stating on par with Susvara at roughly half the price.



Spirits were good, it sounds like typical DD headphones. it had great imaging in 360 space, but could not keep up with the E-stats with layering and depth seperation. Stood out most in the mids to my ears, where it conveyed a large sense of space and with good body. 

queue for the Raal's was too long I gave up as I had to leave unfortunately. Next time.


----------



## senseitedj

mfgillia said:


> What did you think of the Spirit? Heard Raal's upcoming CA-1A got a ton of positive impressions yesterday with some stating on par with Susvara at roughly half the price.


----------



## Isaacc7

baronbeehive said:


> That RP RCA is the same construction as the 14F7 RCA that I have used in place of a 12AX7 on my APPJ amp and liked a lot, but still not found a black plate though.


That RCA is bound to be the same as a Sylvania 6sl7. As far as I can tell all the American loctal tubes were made by Sylvania with the rare exception of NU round plate 7n7. Of course it being a Sylvania 6sl7 means it's bound to be a great tube


----------



## Isaacc7

OctavianH said:


> I also consider 6N7 to be exceptional inputs for UltraSonic amps. I have many, use them often and bought them for nothing. I am glad others share my opinion.
> It is true I prefer the glass types instead of full metal, but recently I discover more and more full metal tubes which sound excellent. I can use them via adapter in the 6SN7 slot or if I have a pair in the 6J5 slots directly. The difference is that in the 6J5 slot triodes are in parallel, running at 2mA while on 6SN7 slot they are at 4mA. I never really understood the sonic difference between these 2 cases, but of course it might be something. 6N7 is incredible and RCA are some of my favourites.


Ugh. Now Have another tube to obsess over... lol. I bought some ecc31 and adapters but the Mullard simply does not work in my amp. There are weird and significant frequency changes. I think it's because the plate resistance is about twice the other tubes I usually use. It looks like the 6n7 has much more reasonable plate resistance so I might try some. They are cheap so why not?

At the time I asked if there are any 6n7 worth considering. was given the advice to not bother if I have the Mullard, nothing else will come close. Too often threads here end up obsessing about European tubes and less expensive tubes are inevitably looked down on. I'm glad to hear you've had good experiences with American 6n7 tubes. Have you tried the earlier version of the 6n7, the 6a6? They do look cooler and I'm not ashamed to admit I'm a sucker for a good looking tube


----------



## OctavianH

Isaacc7 said:


> At the time I asked if there are any 6n7 worth considering. was given the advice to not bother if I have the Mullard, nothing else will come close.


A matter of taste and rest of the setup. I have ECC31, ECC32 and ECC35. All have something in common to me, a kind of Mullard flavour I appreciate in specific cases, not often. But I have to admit all are in their boxes while RCA 6N7 is almost all the time near me. I started to like combinations of manufacturers and I like what RCA is doing to CEC. I do not quite like to use british flavours on both stages, and I usually have GEC on output. So, as I said, a matter of taste.


Isaacc7 said:


> Have you tried the earlier version of the 6n7, the 6a6? They do look cooler and I'm not ashamed to admit I'm a sucker for a good looking tube


No, but I might look into them in the future.


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> A matter of taste and rest of the setup. I have ECC31, ECC32 and ECC35. All have something in common to me, a kind of Mullard flavour I appreciate in specific cases, not often. But I have to admit all are in their boxes while RCA 6N7 is almost all the time near me. I started to like combinations of manufacturers and I like what RCA is doing to CEC. I do not quite like to use british flavours on both stages, and I usually have GEC on output. So, as I said, a matter of taste.
> 
> No, but I might look into them in the future.


You are not alone in not liking the flavor of say GEC tubes as both input and output tubes - too much of a good thing.


----------



## Isaacc7

OctavianH said:


> A matter of taste and rest of the setup. I have ECC31, ECC32 and ECC35. All have something in common to me, a kind of Mullard flavour I appreciate in specific cases, not often. But I have to admit all are in their boxes while RCA 6N7 is almost all the time near me. I started to like combinations of manufacturers and I like what RCA is doing to CEC. I do not quite like to use british flavours on both stages, and I usually have GEC on output. So, as I said, a matter of taste.
> 
> No, but I might look into them in the future.


I would love to have that Mullard flavor for an input tube but alas my system just doesn’t handle the ecc31 well. I’ve had rotten luck with RCA, haven’t liked the 6sn7, 12j5gt, 12sn7gt, 6k6gt, or 6f6. I do have a pair of the grey glass 12sn7gt but haven’t gotten around to trying them yet. I would love to try their 6v6g or gt and of course their 6l6gc. Part of me thinks I should let the guitarists have them though lol. I should get some of their 807 tubers though. That should give me a taste of their 6l6 sound on the cheap. Ooh, also I should seek out some 12v6 of theirs as well since I can use those. More tubes to track down…


----------



## mordy

Isaacc7 said:


> I would love to have that Mullard flavor for an input tube but alas my system just doesn’t handle the ecc31 well. I’ve had rotten luck with RCA, haven’t liked the 6sn7, 12j5gt, 12sn7gt, 6k6gt, or 6f6. I do have a pair of the grey glass 12sn7gt but haven’t gotten around to trying them yet. I would love to try their 6v6g or gt and of course their 6l6gc. Part of me thinks I should let the guitarists have them though lol. I should get some of their 807 tubers though. That should give me a taste of their 6l6 sound on the cheap. Ooh, also I should seek out some 12v6 of theirs as well since I can use those. More tubes to track down…


Every amp is different and the same tube may not sound the same in different amps.
Just a thought:
Since you already have many different tubes, IMHO I think that if you try  different combinations with the tubes you already have, you will find more listening pleasure than chasing after more and more lesser known or unusual variants.


----------



## Isaacc7

mordy said:


> Every amp is different and the same tube may not sound the same in different amps.
> Just a thought:
> Since you already have many different tubes, IMHO I think that if you try  different combinations with the tubes you already have, you will find more listening pleasure than chasing after more and more lesser known or unusual variants.


At this point I consider myself a bit of a tube hobbyist lol. Unlike some, I am not pursuing the ultimate or best sound. I enjoy hearing different flavors. Plus, I enjoy tubes as objects, they're just neat/cool/fun. I'm always up for more as long as they're cheap. I've given up chasing the most desirable tubes. Not only will I let audiophiles and guitarists enjoy them I'm just too cheap!

Just experienced another somewhat obscure tube to great effect. The 14af4 is amazing! I'll talk more about that in the 6sn7 thread


----------



## mordy

Isaacc7 said:


> At this point I consider myself a bit of a tube hobbyist lol. Unlike some, I am not pursuing the ultimate or best sound. I enjoy hearing different flavors. Plus, I enjoy tubes as objects, they're just neat/cool/fun. I'm always up for more as long as they're cheap. I've given up chasing the most desirable tubes. Not only will I let audiophiles and guitarists enjoy them I'm just too cheap!
> 
> Just experienced another somewhat obscure tube to great effect. The 14af4 is amazing! I'll talk more about that in the 6sn7 thread


Good to hear! Personally, if I liked a tube, I would buy cheap lots on eBay and compare different makes of tubes (without expectation bias) to find the ones I like the best. 
But that was a couple of years back; now it seems most tubes are sold as singles, and the days of $2-3 tubes are over.
At this stage I am looking for the best sounding tube combinations in my amps and I often revisit my stock of tubes. When I find what I really like, it usually means that nothing bothers me; when I am listening everything just sounds right.
However, over the years I have learned never to get rid of a tube - you never know when a specific tube suddenly is going to sound great in a new combination! (Even some GE tubes sometimes excel!) 
I guess all this is part of the tube mystique…
I also enjoy trying to figure out who made the tube and when, which becomes much more of a challenge with the older rebranded tubes.


----------



## Isaacc7

Just a quick followup. I said earlier I'm not looking for the best sound. To be more precise I have already found a bunch of really enjoyable sounds with my system and I don't care to rank them. When I want to lose myself in music I will pick one of those combos. But for me, the audio hobby revolves around playing with tubes. That's why my upcoming amp from Ultrasonic Studios will be able to use a dizzying array of them. Lots of fun to be had!


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> The Auris Nirvana with EL34 sounded more the tube-sound I was accustomed to with great warmth, impact, noticable decay but still have good speed and doing well with the technicalities.



Wait till you hear Odyssey.


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> A matter of taste and rest of the setup. I have ECC31, ECC32 and ECC35. All have something in common to me, a kind of Mullard flavour I appreciate in specific cases, not often. But I have to admit all are in their boxes while RCA 6N7 is almost all the time near me. I started to like combinations of manufacturers and I like what RCA is doing to CEC. I do not quite like to use british flavours on both stages, and I usually have GEC on output. So, as I said, a matter of taste.
> 
> No, but I might look into them in the future.


A couple of years ago I was able to buy metal 6N7 tubes at very low prices. Took out my box to see what I have: Several pairs of RCA, but also pairs of Ken-Rad, GE and National Union.
The question I have is if they were made by these manufacturers, or if they mostly were made by RCA as is the case with the 6J5 metal tubes. 
The 6N7 RCAs run very hot, and as usual with metal tubes, take at least 1/2 hour to warm up.


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> Wait till you hear Odyssey.


On queue for the Telly 😉


----------



## Thaddy

UntilThen said:


> Wait till you hear Odyssey.


That hardest part is figuring out which tubes will go into the amp first when it's delivered.  Sounds like there are more 300B's Tomas will be showing off soon, can't wait.


----------



## Isaacc7

Thaddy said:


> That hardest part is figuring out which tubes will go into the amp first when it's delivered.  Sounds like there are more 300B's Tomas will be showing off soon, can't wait.


Yeah, that has been going through my head as well. So many combos. And I keep adding to the total! Thinking about it I need to start ordering adapters! My current amp is single ended so only needed two adapters at a time. New amp will be push pull, gotta double up!


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> That hardest part is figuring out which tubes will go into the amp first when it's delivered.  Sounds like there are more 300B's Tomas will be showing off soon, can't wait.



Of your EL34, KT66 and KT88, any will do. The very first power tubes I use are the Psvane KT88 Tii with Telefunken EL11 as drivers. I didn't use EL12 spez first because my 5U4G wasn't with me and Tomas advice to use 5U4G with EL12 spez for the lower voltage drop.

Having heard both 300b and these indirect heated tubes (albeit in different amps), I wouldn't say that 300b sound the best. In fact for me, I prefer the indirect heated tubes because treble is more extended and clearer.

These days I don't use my headphones much as I am using speakers driven by Oblivion. This morning because I visited this thread, I started listening with Susvara with Odyssey again and what a glorious sound. In all these years of upgrade, this has been the most satisfying listen I've ever had and it's the best.

These are the tubes I'm using now because they have been in Odyssey for weeks. My Berlin tubes and very special indeed. I'm tempted to roll in the other tubes again and I will in the coming days. This is why Odyssey is better because there are so many tubes I can use. I need to sample the GEC KT88 and Mullard EL34 double D getters again but for now these EL12 spez gives me the thrills. Until now I still can't say which of the power tubes are the best because they are all so special and will hold up a candle to even the best 300b tubes. 

On the 13th of August 2022, it will be Odyssey's 1st anniversary and what a very satisfying year it has been. There has not been a single fault with it. It has been performing flawlessly and beautifully. Do it once and do it right, the Odyssey way. This amp and Susvara and Yggdrasil will ride into the sunset with me.


----------



## UntilThen

As it's way pass midnight, as John Wayne would say,

“Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.”


----------



## UntilThen

This was Tomas's Little Dot Mk VI using 4 x WE421A. “A man's got to do what a man's got to do.”


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> This was Tomas's Little Dot Mk VI using 4 x WE421A. “A man's got to do what a man's got to do.”


That was a long time ago! That amp sounded very good after all the mods done to it and those tubes were amazing!


----------



## OctavianH

A quad of WE421A is something. But I prefer my RCA 807


----------



## UntilThen

And the tube rolling begins again with Telefunken EL11 black slim tubes (Germany) and Philips Miniwatt EL34 double D getters (made in Sittard) with Mullard GZ34 f33 early 60s type made in Brussels.

It's an authentic mature sound that is mellow and yet crystal clear. Not to typecast it but NOS EL34 and 300b are the best for vocals in my opinion but yet they excel in instruments and jazz, classical and rock as well. Bass is dished up with a very nice thump ! Midrange is front and centre.

Odyssey is set to UL mode here with feedback switch on to keep it quieter - if that is possible because Odyssey is already quiet.  Sound is so good. I feel like I'm listening to angelic voices and Susvara, what a headphone ! Should have got the HiFiMan earlier but it's never too late.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> And the tube rolling begins again with Telefunken EL11 black slim tubes (Germany) and Philips Miniwatt EL34 double D getters (made in Sittard) with Mullard GZ34 f33 early 60s type made in Brussels.
> 
> It's an authentic mature sound that is mellow and yet crystal clear. Not to typecast it but NOS EL34 and 300b are the best for vocals in my opinion but yet they excel in instruments and jazz, classical and rock as well. Bass is dished up with a very nice thump ! Midrange is front and centre.
> 
> Odyssey is set to UL mode here with feedback switch on to keep it quieter - if that is possible because Odyssey is already quiet.  Sound is so good. I feel like I'm listening to angelic voices and Susvara, what a headphone ! Should have got the HiFiMan earlier but it's never too late.


Just a shout out to Matt for the writing style. Every time he posts a description of Odyssey / tube roll impacts I can almost hear what he is describing. Great fun to follow along in parallel with my own journey since upgrading to the very fine Feliks Euforia AE. Thanks @UntilThen for tirelessly sharing your love of music and the gear that brings it to us. You do it very well!


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Just a shout out to Matt for the writing style. Every time he posts a description of Odyssey / tube roll impacts I can almost hear what he is describing. Great fun to follow along in parallel with my own journey since upgrading to the very fine Feliks Euforia AE. Thanks @UntilThen for tirelessly sharing your love of music and the gear that brings it to us. You do it very well!



Thanks Lory. You're very generous with your compliments but Johnny Wayne would say “Talk low, Talk slow, and Don't say too much.”   I have to dish John. He's getting too many quotes.

Well how many of you clean up your listening station on a regular basis? I haven't and my Starship Enterprise (PC) has been caked with dust and refuse to boot up. Had to take it for service and check up. There's a spider in there with it's web ! How dare the spider make it's home in my Starship.

The desk all clean up and so is the computer. Some arranging and Oblivion and Odyssey are side by side now. Oblivion drives speakers and I use Odyssey for headphone listening. Of course I can also use Oblivion for headphones. Why not use Odyssey for speakers you ask. I don't want to burn up the precious nos tubes watching movies.  

Oblivion is using Tesla 6av6 drivers and Tesla EL81 power tubes. Tesla tubes are like a polished violin. You will hear the highs and lows as well as anything in between. It's driving Susvara very well ! Who would have known ! Volume at 12 noon and Susvara has weight and body and every low note makes it's presence felt. Oblivion soundstage is very wide and instruments separation is first class. This amp is a keeper and I'm glad I have so many drivers and power tubes for it. Oblivion doesn't really need tube rolling except when you are a compulsive tube roller like me. 

I have to show you the new layout now. Desk cleaned, amps cleaned and PC professionally clean by the technician and 2 fans replaced to make it whisper quiet. Running like new now. It's only been 2 years old and I had to release Studio Six for it.  

Btw Lory, congrats on Euforia AE. I'm sure it's an improvement over the Euforia I had.

On the right of the monitor.


On the left of the monitor are the audio gear.


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> I would love to have that Mullard flavor for an input tube but alas my system just doesn’t handle the ecc31 well. I’ve had rotten luck with RCA, haven’t liked the 6sn7, 12j5gt, 12sn7gt, 6k6gt, or 6f6. I do have a pair of the grey glass 12sn7gt but haven’t gotten around to trying them yet. I would love to try their 6v6g or gt and of course their 6l6gc. Part of me thinks I should let the guitarists have them though lol. I should get some of their 807 tubers though. That should give me a taste of their 6l6 sound on the cheap. Ooh, also I should seek out some 12v6 of theirs as well since I can use those. More tubes to track down…


Just my opinion but those grey glass RCA's are quite strange, very very mellow and smooth but can sound quite odd as well, I think they are quite difficult to get properly balanced. Not for me.


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> At this point I consider myself a bit of a tube hobbyist lol. Unlike some, I am not pursuing the ultimate or best sound. I enjoy hearing different flavors. Plus, I enjoy tubes as objects, they're just neat/cool/fun. I'm always up for more as long *as they're cheap*. I've given up chasing the most desirable tubes. Not only will I let audiophiles and guitarists enjoy them I'm just too cheap!
> 
> Just experienced another somewhat obscure tube to great effect. The 14af4 is amazing! I'll talk more about that in the 6sn7 thread


Yeah! I also like cheap. Not long ago I was using 12SL7 GE's which cost a couple of dollars only and were surprisingly good, but now I'm back with the TS BGRP's which are better all round and my favourites. I like the sound as you say and not looking for anything else. Another thing on my modded LD I use RCA power tubes, very cheap and are a match for WE 421A which cost more than the amp. OK if you really listened hard you might be able to detect some subtleties but for all intents and purposes the RCA's do the job thanks to the mods which make anything sound good.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> This was Tomas's Little Dot Mk VI using 4 x WE421A. “A man's got to do what a man's got to do.”


Lovely!!!


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Well how many of you clean up your listening station on a regular basis?


During the course of my mods to the LD I had to go inside the amp a lot and was surprised at the lack of dust.. and spiders.. inside considering the fans were blowing air through the chassis.

@UntilThen congrats on your anniversary with the Odyssey, what a journey, that amp was well named!
👍👍.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> @UntilThen congrats on your anniversary with the Odyssey, what a journey, that amp was well named!



It has been an incredible journey. I spent this evening sampling Susvara through Oblivion and Odyssey. Both amps driving this headphone so well.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 6, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> It has been an incredible journey. I spent this evening sampling Susvara through Oblivion and Odyssey. Both amps driving this headphone so well.


It's been good to have come along for the ride ☺️.

Glad it's your wallet and not mine 😇.

Edit: How you can afford to keep on bcowen as caddy as well is beyond me 🙂.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> It's been good to have come along for the ride ☺️.
> 
> Glad it's your wallet and not mine 😇.
> 
> *Edit: How you can afford to keep on bcowen as caddy as well is beyond me *🙂.


LOL!  Well, he started me at $1 (AUD) an hour. Then he had to cut my pay because he needed the money for some tubes. Then he cut it again to buy more tubes.  As of the last round of salary cuts I'm having to pay him.  I'm pretty sure this sucks for me, but I'm waiting for my accountant to crunch the numbers and let me know for sure.   🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Well, he started me at $1 (AUD) an hour. Then he had to cut my pay because he needed the money for _more golf balls._ Then he cut it again to up to _Titleist Pro V1s (from yellow range balls), _As of the last round of salary cuts I'm having to pay him (_for cart recovery from water hazard)._ I'm pretty sure this sucks for me, but I'm waiting for my accountant to crunch the numbers and let me know for sure. 🤣


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Well, he started me at $1 (AUD) an hour. Then he had to cut my pay because he needed the money for some tubes. Then he cut it again to buy more tubes.  As of the last round of salary cuts I'm having to pay him.  I'm pretty sure this sucks for me, but I'm waiting for my accountant to crunch the numbers and let me know for sure.   🤣


LOL, that might just work for you if you could obtain the services of a certain Mr Trump's accountant, after all it worked for him 😆.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Well, he started me at $1 (AUD) an hour. Then he had to cut my pay because he needed the money for some tubes. Then he cut it again to buy more tubes.  As of the last round of salary cuts I'm having to pay him.  I'm pretty sure this sucks for me, but I'm waiting for my accountant to crunch the numbers and let me know for sure.   🤣



You're certainly worth more than $1 an hour but I can't pay you that now. However I will play this song for you - you did it your way!


----------



## jonathan c

UT, you did it your way with a ‘little’ help from your caddy 🤣🤣🤣:


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> This was Tomas's Little Dot Mk VI using 4 x WE421A. “A man's got to do what a man's got to do.”


The official Devo headphone amplifier…?😄


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> UT, you did it your way with a ‘little’ help from your caddy 🤣🤣🤣:


LOL!  

(PS: he paid me an extra $1 (AUD) to record the bogeys on the 5th and 11th holes as birdies)


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!
> 
> (PS: he paid me an extra $1 (AUD) to record the bogeys on the 5th and 11th holes as birdies)


Ah,…one more reason for the DQ 😈…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> UT, you did it your way with a ‘little’ help from your caddy 🤣🤣🤣:



I know. It's time to change the caddy. Gave me a putter for tee off. Not even Tiger Woods could do that !

Well it's another day and another set of tubes to roll. Today it's to sample the GEC KT88 again. KT88 was introduced by GEC in 1956 as a larger variant of KT66, for audio applications and that is a very important year.  Where EL34 is more mellow, the KT88 is more dynamic and steely edge tonality.

Here I am still using the Telefunken EL11s as drivers. Next up I'll switch to Bcowen's recommendation of Sylvania JAN-VHS-6SL7GT vt229.


----------



## UntilThen

The song I'm listening to is the Butterfly Lovers. Simply breath taking. The violin soloist is superb. The whole performance is mesmerizing with all the instruments and Finnish Turku Philharmonic Orchestra


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I know. It's time to change the caddy. Gave me a putter for tee off. Not even Tiger Woods could do that !
> 
> Well it's another day and another set of tubes to roll. Today it's to sample the GEC KT88 again. KT88 was introduced by GEC in 1956 as a larger variant of KT66, for audio applications and that is a very important year.  Where EL34 is more mellow, the KT88 is more dynamic and steely edge tonality.
> 
> Here I am still using the Telefunken EL11s as drivers. Next up I'll switch to Bcowen's recommendation of Sylvania JAN-VHS-6SL7GT vt229.


I'm listening to some 6N23P's.  Labeled as "International" ECC88's but most definitely silver shield, SWGP Russkies.  Can't tell for sure what year they are, but I picked this pair up for $10 due to the labeling.  $200 pair of tubes in native dress...


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I'm listening to some 6N23P's.  Labeled as "International" ECC88's but most definitely silver shield, SWGP Russkies.  Can't tell for sure what year they are, but I picked this pair up for $10 due to the labeling.  $200 pair of tubes in native dress...



Ah you bought the new Schiit tube amp. Is this more violin than cello?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Ah you bought the new Schiit tube amp. Is this more violin than cello?


No verdict yet.  I'm still deciding whether I should have bought it or an Akai equalizer.   

Seriously, it has some very nice qualities.  Not a home run at this point (for me), but the tubes in play make a profound difference.  As they should...it's OTL and OCL, so per Schiit's design intent you're hearing the tubes themselves more than most other designs.   The 6N23P's are my first roll from the stock tubes but have improved things significantly.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> No verdict yet.  I'm still deciding whether I should have bought it or an Akai equalizer.
> 
> Seriously, it has some very nice qualities.  Not a home run at this point (for me), but the tubes in play make a profound difference.  As they should...it's OTL and OCL, so per Schiit's design intent you're hearing the tubes themselves more than most other designs.   The 6N23P's are my first roll from the stock tubes but have improved things significantly.



Make sure you have a small fan to cool that hottie.  Now I can listen all day long.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> No verdict yet.  I'm still deciding whether I should have bought it or an Akai equalizer.
> 
> Seriously, it has some very nice qualities.  Not a home run at this point (for me), but the tubes in play make a profound difference.  As they should...it's OTL and OCL, so per Schiit's design intent you're hearing the tubes themselves more than most other designs.   The 6N23P's are my first roll from the stock tubes but have improved things significantly.


…as long as FV is not OL…🤷🏻‍♂️🤣…


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Make sure you have a small fan to cool that hottie.  Now I can listen all day long.


I'm replacing my ceiling fan with one of these tomorrow.  Should be good.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> 6N23P's are my first roll



These Voskhod strikes me as mighty mouse. They can belt out like heavy weights. I'm going to have to roll one in Odyssey next.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I'm replacing my ceiling fan with one of these tomorrow.  Should be good.



Damm that's more like a helicopter. Hope your ceiling is high enough !


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Damm that's more like a helicopter. Hope your ceiling is high enough !


It is.  That picture is of my listening room before I sold off some tubes and reduced the number of boxes.


----------



## UntilThen

If I am honest, I would say that Susvara sound just as good with Oblivion against Odyssey, if not better because of the wider soundstage and the incredible current supply from the CCS 2.3watts. Don't sniff that it's only 2.3watts because my volume has not gone past 12 noon using Oblivion with Susvara. This is where I don't understand Oblivion design. It's only 2.3 watts but it's driving Susvara so well. As well as my stereo amp.

Now Susvara also sound amazing with my 150w into 8 ohms Kenwood vintage stereo amp. It has the fullness of sound and body but it's more distant and you're in the 10 rows seat compared to the Ultrasonic Studio amps of 3rd row seats. Despite this, both Oblivion and Odyssey has similar fullness of body and texture as the stereo amp but they excel more in details retrieval and precision. For this reason I find that Susvara is better with both Oblivion and Odyssey than the stereo amp.

Putting this out there if you're wondering which Ultrasonic Studio amp to get for driving Susvara. Oblivion, Citdadel, Infinity, Odyssey, Telemarchus would all be very suitable.


----------



## baronbeehive

... some suspiciously low scores here... unless that is the distance... there's no way UT could have got to the 17th in 504 strokes, even using a putter to tee off 🤣.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I know. It's time to change the caddy. Gave me a putter for tee off. Not even Tiger Woods could do that !


He was only trying to help 🤣 .


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> The official Devo headphone amplifier…?😄


Ha, I don't remember them wearing flowerpots, but then that Devo for you!


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> ... some suspiciously low scores here... unless that is the distance... there's no way UT could have got to the 17th in 504 strokes, even using a putter to tee off 🤣.



Never. These are my shots.


----------



## UntilThen (Aug 7, 2022)

Woke up this morning and fired off 5 shots in succession. All shades of the color spectrum. I had wanted to talk about KT66, the tube that was introduced to the world by GEC-MOV in 1937, along the same time as 6L6. KT66 lived through the wars years and much beyond and is much loved by audio enthusiasts and guitarists until KT88 came along in 1956.

KT88 is not necessary better because KT66 is a hard act to better. It handles the lows better than EL34 with all the analog charms. Here it is in all it's glory.


----------



## rollinbr

UntilThen said:


> Woke up this morning and fired off 5 shots in succession. All shades of the color spectrum. I had wanted to talk about KT66, the tube that was introduced to the world by GEC-MOV in *1936-37*, along the same time as 6L6. KT66 lived through the wars years and much beyond and is much loved by audio enthusiasts and guitarists until KT88 came along in 1956.
> 
> KT88 is not necessary better because KT66 is a hard act to better. It handles the lows better than EL34 with all the analog charms. Here it is in all it's glory.


Fixed that for you! Still love all the different tube combinations possible with Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

rollinbr said:


> Fixed that for you! Still love all the different tube combinations possible with Odyssey.



Early morning fog makes me type 1956 instead of 1937.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Early morning fog** makes me type 1956 instead of 1937.


** external or internal?


----------



## UntilThen

On the 8th Aug 2022, I'm rolling in the Philips Miniwatt EL34 double O getters dark brown base. Next to the EL34 metal base and EL34 double D getters, these are the next highly desirable. The history of EL34 is rather long. EL34 was first introduced in 1954, 2 years before the GEC KT88.

The tubes I have are shown in this link, 2nd from top right. http://www.tube-classics.de/TC/Tubes/Valvo EL34/EL34.htm
Notice author said ''Good sound from these !!! ''

These EL34 have liquid mids, extended highs and pronounced bass ! I paid AUD$350 for this pair from my supplier. Reverb has a pair selling for AUD$592 now.  
https://reverb.com/au/item/50481582...-oo-getter-year-1965-matched-pair-tested-rare

In the picture, the base looks black but it's really dark brown almost black in real life.


----------



## UntilThen

Now for the identifying signs of this EL34 xf2 double O getters dark brown base.

Tupedept describe it well.
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/el34-mullard-double-o-getter-welded-plates

Double O getters


XF2 - B5L2 on the glass. The B is for Blackburn. Many brands, Siemens, Mullard, Valvo, Philips but they are all from the Blackburn factory.


Welded plates


Lastly, hole in the guide pin.


----------



## UntilThen

I took so many shots this morning. These amps are so pretty !


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> XF2 - B5L2 on the glass. The B is for Blackburn. Many brands, Siemens, Mullard, Valvo, Philips but they are all from the Blackburn factory.


I am also investigating markings on the glass, just arrived in Munchen yesterday.


----------



## triod750

Octa; it ain't October yet!


----------



## OctavianH

triod750 said:


> Octa; it ain't October yet!


Damn, I have to drink beer until October?


----------



## triod750

You will probably drink beer forever and then some...


----------



## jonathan c

OctavianH said:


> Damn, I have to drink beer until October?


Be happy that it isn’t: ‘only after’ vs ‘until’….🙄


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> I am also investigating markings on the glass, just arrived in Munchen yesterday.


That's one BIG bulb tube!

Who says you can't have an Augustfest... or a Septemberfest for that matter..


----------



## Magol79

baronbeehive said:


> That's one BIG bulb tube!
> 
> Who says you can't have an Augustfest... or a Septemberfest for that matter..


Hold out. It's soon Octobeer.


----------



## OctavianH

What to say guys, life in Germany helped me understand more about the economical situation. I've learned that only @bcowen can lower inflation. I do hope he'll also lower WE 300B prices a bit.






At home I have my gaming rig... so no TV for me.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 8, 2022)

OctavianH said:


> What to say guys, life in Germany helped me understand more about the economical situation. I've learned that only @bcowen can lower inflation. I do hope he'll also lower WE 300B prices a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> At home I have my gaming rig... so no TV for me.


So which one is bcowen?

Might I suggest you speak to his accountant re: lowering personal inflation.


----------



## OctavianH

baronbeehive said:


> So which one is bcowen?


I have no idea, the girl in the left looks like Beyonce. As I said, I rarely watch TV.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> The song I'm listening to is the Butterfly Lovers. Simply breath taking. The violin soloist is superb. The whole performance is mesmerizing with all the instruments and Finnish Turku Philharmonic Orchestra



That is fantastic 👍👍👍.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> That is fantastic 👍👍👍.



Glad you agree. So next time I talk about polished violin, you know what I'm talking about !


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I have no idea, the girl in the left looks like Beyonce. As I said, I rarely watch TV.



What a coincident. I spend the whole of yesterday listening to Beyonce and I hardly ever listen to Beyonce before.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm letting the world know what I think of Odyssey.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hifiman-susvara.853031/post-17087712


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> Damn, I have get to drink beer until October?


FTFY.   🤣


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> What to say guys, life in Germany helped me understand more about the economical situation. I've learned that only @bcowen can lower inflation. I do hope he'll also lower WE 300B prices a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> At home I have my gaming rig... so no TV for me.


LOL!  All those "uncertain" economists? Jerks.  They're just jealous.


----------



## OctavianH

Yes, uncertain economists recommend tube amps with one single triode. After all one ear is enough for hearing.


----------



## DecentLevi

This may have been posted already, but worth mentioning - incredibly impressive array of new gear shown here at Canjam Chicago. Yggradasil was mentioned, new headphones from Spirit Torino which seems to be some serious competition for ZMF, and a spectacular looking electrostatic tube amp called DIY Kerry Built T2 Electrostatic Headphone Amplifier, which seems to use 4x EL34 and 4x 9-pin octal tubes. I think I spotted a photo of a Glenn OTL amp with EL3N, but no description. Were any Ultrasonic Studios amps on display too? @LoryWiv I think you mentioned you were there.
https://headphone.guru/canjam-chicago-2022-coverage-sponsored-by-underwood-hifi-part-4/


----------



## alvin sawdust

Well it's finally here after being stuck in customs for nearly a month!
I am aware that Tomas soak tested the amp before posting it out but an hour after being plugged in it's sounding highly engaging.
I go on holiday for a week tomorrow so  will have to continue the burn in after that.
Tomas has been a dream to deal with all the way through the process.


----------



## SonicTrance

alvin sawdust said:


> Well it's finally here after being stuck in customs for nearly a month!
> I am aware that Tomas soak tested the amp before posting it out but an hour after being plugged in it's sounding highly engaging.
> I go on holiday for a week tomorrow so  will have to continue the burn in after that.
> Tomas has been a dream to deal with all the way through the process.


I’m glad it finally arrived! Happy listening!


----------



## UntilThen (Aug 11, 2022)

I half expected you were the owner of this Telemarchus, Alvin. Congrats.

After clearing out some gear, I have the funds to buy an Abyss 1266 TC. Now I'm torn between that or put myself in the queue for a Telemarchus.  

I have the same pair of 6f8g drivers + adapters except mine is Tung Sol black glass round plates.


----------



## alvin sawdust

UntilThen said:


> I half expected you were the owner of this Telemarchus, Alvin. Congrats.
> 
> After clearing out some gear, I have the funds to buy an Abyss 1266 TC. Now I'm torn between that or put myself in the queue for a Telemarchus.
> 
> I have the same pair of 6f8g drivers + adapters except mine is Tung Sol black glass round plates.


Thanks UT. I am currently running a pair of rca 6f8g and a "lowly" pair of EH300b. Because I have the dual option of ss or tube for rectification I started off with ss but have just popped in a Mullard 5u4g. Not a lot of difference really but I suspect the Mullard is past it's best, even so great sound. Plenty of detail with no edginess.
Only problem at the moment is the temp here in the NW of the UK is above 30c and the Tele is one big radiator.


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> Thanks UT. I am currently running a pair of rca 6f8g and a "lowly" pair of EH300b. Because I have the dual option of ss or tube for rectification I started off with ss but have just popped in a Mullard 5u4g. Not a lot of difference really but I suspect the Mullard is past it's best, even so great sound. Plenty of detail with no edginess.
> Only problem at the moment is the temp here in the NW of the UK is above 30c and the Tele is one big radiator.



Was Hexfred used as the solid state rectifier? Surprised that ss and tube rectification make not much of a difference. Tomas did a superb job with tube rectification. I'm used to 30c or more having been in Singapore and Australia. Fan or a/c is necessary when it's hot.

I noticed you did not opt for speaker outs. A clean cut 300b amp that is of course very appealing. I'm always for 'less is more' in an amp. Odyssey for all it's options, is still a very simple amp.   

What are the 3 rca input behind for?


----------



## alvin sawdust

UntilThen said:


> Was Hexfred used as the solid state rectifier? Surprised that ss and tube rectification make not much of a difference. Tomas did a superb job with tube rectification. I'm used to 30c or more having been in Singapore and Australia. Fan or a/c is necessary when it's hot.
> 
> I noticed you did not opt for speaker outs. A clean cut 300b amp that is of course very appealing. I'm always for 'less is more' in an amp. Odyssey for all it's options, is still a very simple amp.
> 
> What are the 3 rca input behind for?


Will let Tomas jump in with the info on the ss rectifier, thought I heard mention of Maida, could be wrong. Have replaced the Mullard 5u4g with a Mullard GZ34 and sounding much better, airier and greater heft.

Not used to high temps, usually raining or overcast in the Manchester area.

This is a strictly single ended headphone amp that I hope will be with me for a very long time. My CAD 1543 dac has usb in and rca out and it is sublime so the rest of my rig has been built around it.

The third rca is for signal grounding.

You know Tomas's amps well and I doubt you will have regrets if you decide it's the path you would like to follow.


----------



## UntilThen

GZ34 tightens up the sound. I could have been happy with just GZ34. Tomas single ended amps, with fast transients and traditional tube tone goodness sound amazing. I spend too much time with Susvara and Odyssey because the resultant sound is a very powerful stimulant that arouse energetically the mind, body and soul. 

Where Telemachus differs from Odyssey is the use of grid driver that drives the 300b grid. This should be an even faster transients listening experience with Telemachus as compared to Odyssey. Of course 300b is uniquely different from KT88 or EL34.


----------



## bcowen

alvin sawdust said:


> Well it's finally here after being stuck in customs for nearly a month!
> I am aware that Tomas soak tested the amp before posting it out but an hour after being plugged in it's sounding highly engaging.
> I go on holiday for a week tomorrow so  will have to continue the burn in after that.
> Tomas has been a dream to deal with all the way through the process.


Awesome!!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Guess I'll toss a coin. Heads I get Abyss, tails I get Telemachus and if it lands in the middle, I get Bcowen.


----------



## UntilThen

Wow out of 3 toss, twice tails and once heads.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Wow out of 3 toss, twice tails and once heads.


And none in the middle?  Either this is outright discrimination or your tossing abilities are lacking.   🤣


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> And none in the middle?  Either this is outright discrimination or your tossing abilities are lacking.   🤣



I think it's fated. I was hoping it lands in the middle because then I don't need to spend money. So I was trying the hardest to get it to land in the middle but it's just impossible.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> Wow out of 3 toss, twice tails and once heads.


Well there you go! 300b in your future?


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Well there you go! 300b in your future?



It's already decided by the coin toss. Will talk to Tomas. 3 Ultrasonic amps to service Susvara. This headphone sound incredible from Odyssey and Oblivion. I expect no less from Telemachus. I suspect it might sound the best from 300b. Reports from Canjam that Susvara and Envy sound amazing.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> It's already decided by the coin toss. Will talk to Tomas. 3 Ultrasonic amps to service Susvara. This headphone sound incredible from Odyssey and Oblivion. I expect no less from Telemachus. I suspect it might sound the best from 300b. Reports from Canjam that Susvara and Envy sound amazing.


Man, rolling 300b tubes can add up real quick. Wonder how many you'll try. You have the cream of the crop for pentode/tetrode, will you do the same for 300b?


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Man, rolling 300b tubes can add up real quick. Wonder how many you'll try. You have the cream of the crop for pentode/tetrode, will you do the same for 300b?



I’m more conservative now. So to start off with just a pair of budget 300b then get a pair of WE300b. That’s it. Have drivers and rectifiers so no need to spend there.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I’m more conservative now. So to start off with just a pair of budget 300b then get a pair of WE300b. That’s it. Have drivers and rectifiers so no need to spend there.


I agree.  You could spend a large fortune rolling 300B's. That's one tube type where it might be best just to get the WE's, take the hit to the wallet early on, and call it done.  Well, except for the backup pair.  And the backups for the backups....


----------



## Isaacc7

bcowen said:


> I agree.  You could spend a large fortune rolling 300B's. That's one tube type where it might be best just to get the WE's, take the hit to the wallet early on, and call it done.  Well, except for the backup pair.  And the backups for the backups....


One of the draws of WE 300b is supposed to be their longevity. So yeah, just spend the money and do it once https://www.tubedepot.com/products/nos-western-electric-300b-black-plate-1961-matched-pair


----------



## UntilThen

Talking to Tomas, finding out eta.  Meanwhile I found my 'mint' pair of Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base. Volume is 11am on Odyssey and it's loud on Susvara. Power a plenty but it's the tone. I haven't heard a better sounding tube amp.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> One of the draws of WE 300b is supposed to be their longevity. So yeah, just spend the money and do it once https://www.tubedepot.com/products/nos-western-electric-300b-black-plate-1961-matched-pair



This is not what I have in mind ! US$9995 you must be out of your mind.

This at AUD$2500 for a match pair is more like it.  
https://sonicpurity.com.au/tubes/western-electric-300b


----------



## alvin sawdust

UntilThen said:


> It's already decided by the coin toss. Will talk to Tomas. 3 Ultrasonic amps to service Susvara. This headphone sound incredible from Odyssey and Oblivion. I expect no less from Telemachus. I suspect it might sound the best from 300b. Reports from Canjam that Susvara and Envy sound amazing.


Good choice UT!


----------



## OctavianH (Aug 12, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Talking to Tomas, finding out eta.


Then you can also think about these. When you receive the amp you can listen to this:


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> Good choice UT!



You mean a tough choice because I'm going to miss Abyss 1266 TC even not having heard it lol. Odyssey and Oblivion would have driven it very well because they drives Susvara very well. Yet here I am lusting for another Telemachus.

With Odyssey, I had no problem going for any options. I only left out preamp option which I probably should have. With Telemachus, I will be more conservative. Will leave out some of the option I had in Odyssey, which I don''t use much. Like multiple rca / xlr input. 1/4 and xlr headphone - I probably only need one .. 1/4. 

Dual power supply (ss and tube) ? Dunno. It will complicate the design and it's an expensive option and you don't hear any obvious difference.  I think I might just stick with tube rectification because Odyssey is very quiet and I have many good tube rectifiers. If I have dual power supply option, I can see myself using tube rectifier all the time !

Speaker out - I don't use this much on Odyssey because Oblivion is doing duty there. I listen in nearfield and I don't need lots of power to drive my Axis Voicebox S to a level where I watch movies. So may leave this out. 

Preamp ? Hmmm I never had this feature with Oblivion and Odyssey but I don't know how well Telemachus will serve as a preamp. Will it use the sonics of the 300b tubes?

Impedance switch? - Do I really need this? Odyssey is functioning very well without it. So well in fact as I type and listen with Susvara + Odyssey and I just think it's such an incredible tone. Telemachus has to be as good as this or better.  

I leave for the coastal bay town for the weekend and will think more about this as I watch the waves ebb and flow. I will watch the seagulls too because they might counsel me on all these expenditures. I just had to replace 4 new Goodyear Efficient Plus Performance SUV tyres ! Is there no end to money's ebb and flow?


----------



## TheMiddleSky

UntilThen said:


> You mean a tough choice because I'm going to miss Abyss 1266 TC even not having heard it lol. Odyssey and Oblivion would have driven it very well because they drives Susvara very well. Yet here I am lusting for another Telemachus.
> 
> With Odyssey, I had no problem going for any options. I only left out preamp option which I probably should have. With Telemachus, I will be more conservative. Will leave out some of the option I had in Odyssey, which I don''t use much. Like multiple rca / xlr input. 1/4 and xlr headphone - I probably only need one .. 1/4.
> 
> ...



Abyss Diana already in TC version, my wild guess will not too long before we able to see the newest iteration of 1266. Perhaps in 1-2 years? I dunno, but I believe Abyss Team will not just "sleep" from updating their flagship. 

At the other perspective, (again my wild guess) I think Telemachus will going strong with no update for some years ahead.


----------



## senseitedj (Aug 12, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> You mean a tough choice because I'm going to miss Abyss 1266 TC even not having heard it lol. Odyssey and Oblivion would have driven it very well because they drives Susvara very well. Yet here I am lusting for another Telemachus.
> 
> With Odyssey, I had no problem going for any options. I only left out preamp option which I probably should have. With Telemachus, I will be more conservative. Will leave out some of the option I had in Odyssey, which I don''t use much. Like multiple rca / xlr input. 1/4 and xlr headphone - I probably only need one .. 1/4.
> 
> ...



I plan to put this in the middle of my chain in my current and future set-ups. Multiple input/output will no doubt be handy.

Speaker out - I want to pair the Telly with my KEF LS50 Metas.

Pre-amp - Future provision when I get an E-stat or higher power speaker systems

Impedance Switch - My headphones range from 15 ohm to 600 ohm and everything in between. Definitely useful


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> You mean a tough choice because I'm going to miss Abyss 1266 TC even not having heard it lol. Odyssey and Oblivion would have driven it very well because they drives Susvara very well. Yet here I am lusting for another Telemachus.
> 
> With Odyssey, I had no problem going for any options. I only left out preamp option which I probably should have. With Telemachus, I will be more conservative. Will leave out some of the option I had in Odyssey, which I don''t use much. Like multiple rca / xlr input. 1/4 and xlr headphone - I probably only need one .. 1/4.
> 
> ...


I’m biased but speaker out seems like a good feature to have for several reasons. First of all, single ended triodes have a very different presentation than other designs. If you enjoy listening via speakers it would be nice to have that option. Secondly, if you were ever to sell it (heaven forfend!) speaker outputs would expose you to another group of people looking at 300b based amps. I also wouldn’t recommend spending the extra on the dual power supplies. Can’t imagine it’s cheap and I’m not sure how much of a difference it should make in any case. 

I say I’m biased because I don’t enjoy using headphones. That bias is undoubtedly what makes my mind boggle at the thought of spending that kind of money for an amp that can only power headphones. Especially since it could very easily do double duty. I have always been curious why dedicated headphone amps need upwards of 10 watts of output power. Doing some back of the envelope math I‘m pretty sure that my usual listening volumes require 2-3 watts at the most. And that’s with 90db sensitive loudspeakers about 8 feet from me! Usually I’m below a watt. I’m surprised there aren’t more dedicated headphone amps using very low output triodes like the 45 and even lower. I had a nice sounding system that used a 6bx7 output with the triodes paralleled. That was good for what, 1.5-2 watts? Even 80 milliwatts should be loud enough for 300 ohm headphones I should think.  With the right transformer you should be able to use very low output, sonically delightful tubes. Is it just a case of need custom output transformers?


----------



## alvin sawdust

UntilThen said:


> You mean a tough choice because I'm going to miss Abyss 1266 TC even not having heard it lol. Odyssey and Oblivion would have driven it very well because they drives Susvara very well. Yet here I am lusting for another Telemachus.
> 
> With Odyssey, I had no problem going for any options. I only left out preamp option which I probably should have. With Telemachus, I will be more conservative. Will leave out some of the option I had in Odyssey, which I don''t use much. Like multiple rca / xlr input. 1/4 and xlr headphone - I probably only need one .. 1/4.
> 
> ...


My off the cuff remark about not noticing much difference between ss and tube rectification should not deter you.  Tomas said to me that he thought the ss route might be best but because this amp will be with me for years to come, and also I have a decent stash of suitable rectifiers, the dual option allows me to play around. I think the ss will be a good reference point.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Preamp ? Hmmm I never had this feature with Oblivion and Odyssey but I don't know how well Telemachus will serve as a preamp. Will it use the sonics of the 300b tubes?


Yes, the pre-amp feature will add "300B magic" to the sound!



UntilThen said:


> Dual power supply (ss and tube) ? Dunno. It will complicate the design and it's an expensive option and you don't hear any obvious difference.  I think I might just stick with tube rectification because Odyssey is very quiet and I have many good tube rectifiers. If I have dual power supply option, I can see myself using tube rectifier all the time !


It makes a difference. Even quieter background (it's already quiet with the rectifier tube as well). To me the sound becomes more detailed and snappier with the regulated supply.


----------



## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> Yes, the pre-amp feature will add "300B magic" to the sound!
> 
> 
> It makes a difference. Even quieter background (it's already quiet with the rectifier tube as well). To me the sound becomes more detailed and snappier with the regulated supply.


It’s possible to have a regulated supply with a tube rectifier right? I assume that if regulated the sound would end up being the same right?


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Yes, the pre-amp feature will add "300B magic" to the sound!



Looks like I need the preamp function.




SonicTrance said:


> It makes a difference. Even quieter background (it's already quiet with the rectifier tube as well). To me the sound becomes more detailed and snappier with the regulated supply.




.... and also the dual power supply option.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> I plan to put this in the middle of my chain in my current and future set-ups. Multiple input/output will no doubt be handy.
> 
> Speaker out - I want to pair the Telly with my KEF LS50 Metas.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the feedback in private messages and here. Your Telemachus has just about everything and will no doubt serve as your system control engine ! Very noice !



Isaacc7 said:


> I’m biased but speaker out seems like a good feature to have for several reasons. First of all, single ended triodes have a very different presentation than other designs. If you enjoy listening via speakers it would be nice to have that option. Secondly, if you were ever to sell it (heaven forfend!) speaker outputs would expose you to another group of people looking at 300b based amps. I also wouldn’t recommend spending the extra on the dual power supplies. Can’t imagine it’s cheap and I’m not sure how much of a difference it should make in any case.
> 
> I say I’m biased because I don’t enjoy using headphones. That bias is undoubtedly what makes *my mind boggle at the thought of spending that kind of money for an amp that can only power headphones*. Especially since it could very easily do double duty. I have always been curious why dedicated headphone amps need upwards of 10 watts of output power. Doing some back of the envelope math I‘m pretty sure that my usual listening volumes require 2-3 watts at the most. And that’s with 90db sensitive loudspeakers about 8 feet from me! Usually I’m below a watt. I’m surprised there aren’t more dedicated headphone amps using very low output triodes like the 45 and even lower. I had a nice sounding system that used a 6bx7 output with the triodes paralleled. That was good for what, 1.5-2 watts? Even 80 milliwatts should be loud enough for 300 ohm headphones I should think.  With the right transformer you should be able to use very low output, sonically delightful tubes. Is it just a case of need custom output transformers?



A very good point. To forgo speaker out for such a powerful amp seems like a waste. However 12.5 watts is into 8 ohms. At 60 ohms it will be less but still more than sufficient to drive Susvara as well as stereo amps. I know because I have Odyssey and my Kenwood here side by side. Odyssey is 15w in triode mode and 20w in UL mode.

As for your statement above in bold, this is Head-Fi and many have spend more outrageous amount just for headphone.   Mainly Susvara and Abyss TC are the culprits because they are power hungry and respond well and deserve good gear.

Still debating whether to have speaker out but everything adds up.  



alvin sawdust said:


> My off the cuff remark about not noticing much difference between ss and tube rectification should not deter you.  Tomas said to me that he thought the ss route might be best but because this amp will be with me for years to come, and also I have a decent stash of suitable rectifiers, the dual option allows me to play around. I think the ss will be a good reference point.



Well Alvin, when you're back from the holidays and you've some time with Telemachus, do share what you think about it's sonics, or generally what you think of it as a 300b amp and the dual power supply option. I suspect it will make a difference with sensitive, low impedance headphones.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> Abyss Diana already in TC version, my wild guess will not too long before we able to see the newest iteration of 1266. Perhaps in 1-2 years? I dunno, but I believe Abyss Team will not just "sleep" from updating their flagship.
> 
> At the other perspective, (again my wild guess) I think Telemachus will going strong with no update for some years ahead.



That's a very good point. I should wait for the new version.  I'm sure the seagulls will agree with this.


----------



## UntilThen

I could preamp Telemachus into Odyssey. That will start another Trojan war.  

What do you get when you blend 300b with KT88 or EL34?


----------



## SonicTrance

Isaacc7 said:


> It’s possible to have a regulated supply with a tube rectifier right? I assume that if regulated the sound would end up being the same right?


If you always use the same type of rectifier then sure. Not if you want to roll different rectifiers. This is because the regulator needs voltage headroom. So, if I design around GZ34, which has a very low voltage drop, and you put in a 5U4, which has much higher voltage drop than GZ34, the reg will not have sufficient headroom and might start to oscillate. 
Why not design around a rectifier tube with high V drop so you can use different types? Because the reg will then have a huge voltage drop with a GZ34 resulting in a very hot regulator! Not ideal. 
Also, the whole idea with using a tube rectifier becomes moot if placed in front of a regulator as the voltage will be the same always anyway. A tube rectified power supply is not supposed to be regulated.


----------



## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> If you always use the same type of rectifier then sure. Not if you want to roll different rectifiers. This is because the regulator needs voltage headroom. So, if I design around GZ34, which has a very low voltage drop, and you put in a 5U4, which has much higher voltage drop than GZ34, the reg will not have sufficient headroom and might start to oscillate.
> Why not design around a rectifier tube with high V drop so you can use different types? Because the reg will then have a huge voltage drop with a GZ34 resulting in a very hot regulator! Not ideal.
> Also, the whole idea with using a tube rectifier becomes moot if placed in front of a regulator as the voltage will be the same always anyway. A tube rectified power supply is not supposed to be regulated.


I assume that is only the case for the relatively high voltage of the triode output tube right? My current amp allows different tube rectifiers to be used in order to change the voltage on the plate of the output tube. Regardless of the rectifier, output, or input tube used the input tube gets 250v and the screen on the output tubes gets 260v. It’s a clever design that allows changing tube types but still maintain great performance within ratings. 

As silly as a vacuum tube rectifier with a fully regulated supply might be there’s no denying it looks great!


----------



## SonicTrance

Isaacc7 said:


> I assume that is only the case for the relatively high voltage of the triode output tube right?


No, it's the system as a whole.



Isaacc7 said:


> Regardless of the rectifier, output, or input tube used the input tube gets 250v and the screen on the output tubes gets 260v.


Right, that is not a regulated supply though. Also, the screen voltage should always be a tad lower than the anode voltage. So, 260 anode and 250 g3 is better.



Isaacc7 said:


> As silly as a vacuum tube rectifier with a fully regulated supply might be there’s no denying it looks great!


Indeed it does!


----------



## Thaddy

SonicTrance said:


> If you always use the same type of rectifier then sure. Not if you want to roll different rectifiers. This is because the regulator needs voltage headroom. So, if I design around GZ34, which has a very low voltage drop, and you put in a 5U4, which has much higher voltage drop than GZ34, the reg will not have sufficient headroom and might start to oscillate.
> Why not design around a rectifier tube with high V drop so you can use different types? Because the reg will then have a huge voltage drop with a GZ34 resulting in a very hot regulator! Not ideal.
> Also, the whole idea with using a tube rectifier becomes moot if placed in front of a regulator as the voltage will be the same always anyway. A tube rectified power supply is not supposed to be regulated.


Hmm, I may have to email my list of rectifiers to make sure they'll all be compatible with the Odyssey!


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> Hmm, I may have to email my list of rectifiers to make sure they'll all be compatible with the Odyssey!


You have a big range to choose from.

Gz34, 5u4g, gz32, 53ku, gec u52, etc.

I cannot use 274b in my Odyssey.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> What do you get when you blend 300b with KT88 or EL34?


You get KT388b or EL334b


----------



## Thaddy

UntilThen said:


> You have a big range to choose from.
> 
> Gz34, 5u4g, gz32, 53ku, gec u52, etc.
> 
> I cannot use 274b in my Odyssey.


I've also got a 274B, but fortunately the Sophia Princess 274B isn't my favorite tube anyways!  I do like the Mullard 5AR4/GZ34.  Are you able to use 5R4 rectifiers?


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> I've also got a 274B, but fortunately the Sophia Princess 274B isn't my favorite tube anyways!  I do like the Mullard 5AR4/GZ34.  Are you able to use 5R4 rectifiers?



You mean 5AR4? It’s basically a GZ34. A good Mullard GZ34 is the best imo.

The 596 that I bought from Woo Audio with adapter is very good too. Clarity x 2.


----------



## UntilThen

Today is Odyssey 1st anniversary but I’m away for a night in a beach motel.

Going to a cheese and chocolate factory but I will miss my audio therapy. 😊


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> You get KT388b or EL334b



300b preamp into EL156 should be interesting !


----------



## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> No, it's the system as a whole.
> 
> 
> Right, that is not a regulated supply though. Also, the screen voltage should always be a tad lower than the anode voltage. So, 260 anode and 250 g3 is better.
> ...


Just to be clear, the input twin triode gets the 250v. The output pentode/tetrode has the screen at 260v. I don’t have hard numbers on the anode voltage spread but I think it is something like 285-340 or thereabouts. 

Incidentally, I would love a similar tube amp, single ended pentode with adjustable voltage and wide selection for input tube, but with two tubes per side and the ability to use tubes ranging from Kt44 up to 6v6gt. So somewhere between 230v-285v with a regulated screen supply. Maybe in a year or two I’ll get serious about that. Who knows, maybe I’ll give up on it after getting my new amp in October


----------



## UntilThen

Isaac, never say give up after a certain amp. 😀


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> Isaac, never say give up after a certain amp. 😀


I gotta do something with all these tubes right? Lol.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> I gotta do something with all these tubes right? Lol.



I did say after Odyssey there will be no more. How did I know he had a son.


----------



## UntilThen

Tomas, can 6SL7 be used in Telemachus besides 6SN7 ?


----------



## SonicTrance

Thaddy said:


> Hmm, I may have to email my list of rectifiers to make sure they'll all be compatible with the Odyssey!


Please don’t 
Look at the datasheets. You can use any 5V rectifier with filament current 3A or less that can supply 200+mA. That’s a lot of different rectifiers.



UntilThen said:


> Tomas, can 6SL7 be used in Telemachus besides 6SN7 ?


No, only 6SN7 type tubes. So, 6N8S, 6F8G and 6SN7.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> No, only 6SN7 type tubes. So, 6N8S, 6F8G and 6SN7.



Ok 6sn7 is enough. I have limited ordinary sets at the moment.

Tung Sol 6f8g bgrp
Sylvania 6sn7gt smoke glass
Ken Rad 6sn7gt black glass
Fotons 6n8s
Sylvania 6sn7gtw brown base.


----------



## Thaddy (Aug 13, 2022)

SonicTrance said:


> Please don’t
> Look at the datasheets. You can use any 5V rectifier with filament current 3A or less that can supply 200+mA. That’s a lot of different rectifiers.


Understood!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I did say after Odyssey there will be no more. How did I know he had a son.


There's _always_ an excuse.  Like the recovering alcoholic: "How was I supposed to know there was a bar on the way home..."   🤣


----------



## bcowen (Aug 13, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Ok 6sn7 is enough. I have limited ordinary sets at the moment.
> 
> Tung Sol 6f8g bgrp
> Sylvania 6sn7gt smoke glass
> ...


I don't see any Melz 1578's on your list.  Excellent tubes.

And don't discount the tall bottle Sylvania 7N7's just 'cause they're (still) cheap.  Adapters needed of course, but they can run right in the same league as their octal brethren.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/354213084672?hash=item5278bebe00:g:KkQAAOSwCz5i8YTt

(7N7's were only made by Sylvania and National Union regardless of exterior branding)


----------



## SonicTrance

Another Telemachus complete! This one has SS/tube rectification, speaker and pre-amp outputs.


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> Another Telemachus complete! This one has SS/tube rectification, speaker and pre-amp outputs.


Damn, that's pretty.  _Very_ nice.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I don't see any Melz 1578's on your list.  Excellent tubes.
> 
> And don't discount the tall bottle Sylvania 7N7's just 'cause they're (still) cheap.  Adapters needed of course, but they can run right in the same league as their octal brethren.



How could I forget. I had a pair of Raytheon 7n7 with adapters that was on Elise when I went to the CANCON in 2016.

I still have the tubes and adapters.

Jot my memory more. I could have a pair of Takatsuki 300b somewhere.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Another Telemachus complete! This one has SS/tube rectification, speaker and pre-amp outputs.



That’s the 3rd Telemachus off the assembly line and this one has near everything except VU meters. 😀

Who needs VU meters anyway.


----------



## SonicTrance

bcowen said:


> Damn, that's pretty.  _Very_ nice.


Thanks!



UntilThen said:


> That’s the 3rd Telemachus off the assembly line and this one has near everything except VU meters. 😀
> 
> Who needs VU meters anyway.


Yep, this one is fully loaded, almost! VU meters are just cool to look at.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> How could I forget. I had a pair of Raytheon 7n7 with adapters that was on Elise when I went to the CANCON in 2016.
> 
> I still have the tubes and adapters.
> 
> Jot my memory more. I could have a pair of Takatsuki 300b somewhere.


Are your Raytheons tall bottles with the flashing covering ~half of the inside of the bottle (similar to the link I posted)?  I ask only because the short bottle 7N7's I've tried never got me going much.  The tall bottle with major flashing are the ones I really like (but that's just me of course).  And the Sylvanias come clothed in so many different attires you can pick which one you like best.  Even GE.   🤣


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> There's _always_ an excuse.  Like the recovering alcoholic: "How was I supposed to know there was a bar on the way home..."   🤣



There is indeed a bar on the way home but I didn’t go in to drink. I went in to get Telemachus. 😀

I only have the shortie 7N7 because all the tall ones were bought by you !


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> There is indeed a bar on the way home but I didn’t go in to drink. I went in to get Telemachus. 😀
> 
> *I only have the shortie 7N7 because all the tall ones were bought by you !*


Nah, there's that one on Ebay right now.  Yes, I missed it.   But I might go ahead and buy it simply because I don't have a Zenith labeled one in the stash.   🤣


----------



## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> Please don’t
> Look at the datasheets. You can use any 5V rectifier with filament current 3A or less that can supply 200+mA. That’s a lot of different rectifiers.
> 
> 
> No, only 6SN7 type tubes. So, 6N8S, 6F8G and 6SN7.


And I assume dual 6j5/6c5c with adapters? I've been very impressed with splitting out the triodes. I plan on doing that with my new amp as part of my tube rotation.


----------



## SonicTrance

Isaacc7 said:


> And I assume dual 6j5/6c5c with adapters? I've been very impressed with splitting out the triodes. I plan on doing that with my new amp as part of my tube rotation.


Yes, dual 6J5/6C5's will work just as well.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> Isaac, never say give up after a certain amp. 😀


Hmmm.....


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> Hmmm.....



I said Odyssey is my last amp and see what happens?

Now there’s his son, probably next his wife, uncles, aunties, lovers ?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I said Odyssey is my last amp and see what happens?
> 
> Now there’s his son, probably next his wife, uncles, aunties, lovers ?


About 20 years ago I said I wasn't going to buy any more tubes, and, well, that kinda went sideways.


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> About 20 years ago I said I wasn't going to buy any more tubes, and, well, that kinda went sideways.


That's because you're buying the wrong tubes. Switch to 300B, your spending spree will be brief.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> That's because you're buying the wrong tubes. Switch to 300B, your spending spree will be brief.





He’s buying GE tubes.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> He’s buying GE tubes.


Oh, that kind of penance.


----------



## Thaddy

UntilThen said:


> That’s the 3rd Telemachus off the assembly line and this one has near everything except VU meters. 😀
> 
> Who needs VU meters anyway.


I went with the VU meters for my Odyssey


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> I went with the VU meters for my Odyssey



Your Odyssey will be special. I regretted not getting preamp for it.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> He’s buying GE tubes.


Shhhhh.  You'll ruin your Christmas surprise.


----------



## senseitedj

SonicTrance said:


> Another Telemachus complete! This one has SS/tube rectification, speaker and pre-amp outputs.



Very nice! This looks very exciting!

One question though, I noticed there is a heatsink at the back, can you tell us what that is for?


----------



## SonicTrance

senseitedj said:


> Very nice! This looks very exciting!
> 
> One question though, I noticed there is a heatsink at the back, can you tell us what that is for?


Thanks!

The heatsink is for the SS regulator FET that’s mounted on the inside.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Thanks!
> 
> The heatsink is for the SS regulator FET that’s mounted on the inside.



But I don't see it on Alvin's amp ?


----------



## UntilThen

I'm almost ready to sign on the dotted line for the order of Telemachus. It will have preamp out but not speaker out. If I wanted to listen to speakers in a big size room, Telemachus will preamp out to a monstrous solid state amp.  

This is my timeline :-

Oblivion - Dec 2019
Odyssey - Aug 2021
Telemachus - Apr 2023

I think they are well spaced out. Telemachus will be my last tube amp. No ifs or buts.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Oblivion - Dec 2019
> Odyssey - Aug 2021
> Telemachus - Apr 2023


3 Ultrasonic amps?!  Impressive!!! 
I expect my 1st in Feb. 2023 (and it will be a new design 🤫)


----------



## Thaddy

Zachik said:


> 3 Ultrasonic amps?!  Impressive!!!
> I expect my 1st in Feb. 2023 (and it will be a new design 🤫)


Nice! I’m a month in front of you with a custom Odyssey. Always exciting to see the new amps get posted each month.


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> 3 Ultrasonic amps?!  Impressive!!!
> I expect my 1st in Feb. 2023 (and it will be a new design 🤫)



I have a preference for stereo system presentation that has fast transients, tight bass control, engaging mids and bite in the top end. One with great dynamics. Lace this with tube tone goodness and it's heavens to my ears. 

I find this first in Oblivion, then Odyssey and I know then that Tomas's tuning and preference aligned with mine. So it's easy to go with Telemachus, knowing he will churn out more of the same except now it's with the 300b magic. After selling off Destiny, I do miss that 300b tone but what I want is a 300b amp with Tomas's tuning. It's Odyssey with a 300b twist.  

Looking forward to your 300b ! We're very patient waiting for our amps.


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> Nice! I’m a month in front of you with a custom Odyssey. Always exciting to see the new amps get posted each month.



Yours will be the 3rd Odyssey. Very rare.


----------



## DecentLevi (Aug 15, 2022)

Sorry guys - a bit of OTT hype incoming that's not for the scientific hi-fi puritan type.

The sound I'm getting is downright GLORIOUS. Smooth silky silver fidelity served on a shiny platter. Thump to stop you in your tracks and realistic timbre to make you turn your head. Energy to take you to any time in space, and magic to take your mind to the moon AND BACK. I've been listening to this Valvo EL12 + authentic 6N23P all day and it excels on all genres - electronic music sounding sublime and vibin', classic pop & rock sounding alive and on fire, with nothing over / underdone AT ALL. In the back of my mind I do know that dual input setups can sound better, but for some reason I just can't shake this sound! Silky, lofty, luxurious, and somehow I keep thinking silver, silver, silver!!!
... I really don't think this strawberry lime margarita has anything to do with it, but it did sound aplomb even beforehand!!

I'm really enjoyn' some retro music that charted the year 1981 and some standouts for fantastic mastering from this year are from Steve Winwood, Four Tops, Smokey Robinson and ABC (not the 90s Another Bad Creation).

PS here's the detailed description in case you're interested in finding the holy authentic 6N23P SWSS
6N23P = E88CC = 6922 = 6DJ8 REFLEKTOR SingleWire SilverShield1975 (look for years near '75, and there's another thread here with more specifics)






PS - EL39 (silver band) with 6N23P was great also, but this is darker to suit my preference for now.


----------



## OctavianH

April 2023 means 8 amps are incoming. Mostly Odyssey and Telemachus. Interesting. I wonder if Tomas has a list with all the amps he built and some specs. It would be nice to know some statistics.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> But I don't see it on Alvin's amp ?


His heatsink is on the inside. Different design.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> The sound I'm getting is downright GLORIOUS.



Your Infinity should sound good now. Do you feel the bass more pronounced and the texture fuller compared to before the modification? You've Sowter OTs in it now.


----------



## DecentLevi

UntilThen said:


> Your Infinity should sound good now. Do you feel the bass more pronounced and the texture fuller compared to before the modification? You've Sowter OTs in it now.


IMO much of the reason for the fantastic performance now is thanks to the rest of my system - notably Star-Tec ferrite clamps used internally, power conditioner with aftermarket insulated power cables going to all components, DI-20 (DDC / audio bridge) between the PC and DAC, and any hi-fi headphone above Senn. HD-600 and absorption feet under the amp (mentioned on recent pages). This work in progress is definitely helping the Ultrasonic Studios reach it's potential and each have shown definite incremental improvements, and I have more tweaks on the way. Yes as I noticed right after receiving this Infinity-Odyssey hybrid, the sound was far better in all areas the Infinity, IMO. I am still troubleshooting the hum however, which was present even with brand new KT66 tubes and all drivers of all condition, and going through my TOTL power conditioner.


----------



## Thaddy

You didn't notice the difference moving to Sowter output transformers but can hear the difference by adding ferrite clamps and vibration dampening?


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> I'm almost ready to sign on the dotted line for the order of Telemachus. It will have preamp out but not speaker out. If I wanted to listen to speakers in a big size room, Telemachus will preamp out to a monstrous solid state amp.
> 
> This is my timeline :-
> 
> ...


Hmmm.....


----------



## DecentLevi

Thaddy said:


> You didn't notice the difference moving to Sowter output transformers but can hear the difference by adding ferrite clamps and vibration dampening?


There was almost one year between my original Infinity and the revised "Finyssey" with Sowter and I only got a few hours with the original, so it's hard to make any comparison especially with how audio memory is, though I did mention everything seemed much better - more analogue, punchy and vibrant, perhaps. At home DIY tweaks are a much faster A/B comparison and I always do multiple takes on source material and headphones I'm deeply familiar with, to ensure the difference is positive and noticeable.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> Hmmm.....



I'll reply to your hmmm....  

August 7th 2021, while waiting for Odyssey to arrive, Tomas shared with me that he has designed a 300b amp in simulations.

It's an old school design but has some "modern" parts as well. Basically you get the best of both worlds. The power from old school design and transient response and low distortion from the modern parts. That's what he said.

I honestly didn't think I will get another expensive amp again after Odyssey but I was very intrigued with this new design 300b amp that Tomas is going to call Telemachus. So yeah one more for the road. It will be built for Susvara. Mine will be the 4th Telemachus unless there are others in the queue.  

It will look almost similar to Alvin's Telemachus except I'll be using mA meters. Love that big black volume knob. It's made for turning !

Inside Odyssey, there are Mundorf S/G/O coupling caps and the Nichicon MUSE cathode bypass caps. It should be the same as Telemachus.


----------



## triod750

And I will reply to your explanation; if you want another amp, then - why not? No-one will believe you when you say 'this is my last amp' anyway. And that doesn't matter one iota. You are on a journey and we all benefit. It is both entertaining and educating.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> And I will reply to your explanation; if you want another amp, then - why not? No-one will believe you when you say 'this is my last amp' anyway. And that doesn't matter one iota. You are on a journey and we all benefit. It is both entertaining and educating.



Every journey has to end but I shall now play an LP.


----------



## UntilThen

I did spend an hour reading through the Cayin HA-300MK2 thread 2 nights ago. I wanted to see if that 300b amp is for me rather than going into a custom build. There's a lot of appeal in that amp and for a price a little less than Telemachus, I get tubes included, 4.4 balanced input as well. However I could still not work out how the sonic signature is. In getting a 300b amp, it's the sonic signature that is the most important to me. After Destiny, I didn't want just another 300b amp. I wanted one where the tone is superb to my ears. Believe me, Destiny sounds good but Odyssey leaves it in the dust. One's good, the other is great in terms of sound.

Then I turn to my Odyssey and I said to myself, that is a superb tone and that is what I want. A 300b in that tuning is what I want. There will be no other. So Telemachus here I come.


----------



## UntilThen

I don't deny but Telemachus price now approaches high end gear price. It's more expensive than Headamp GSK mk2, Cayin HA-300 mk2 and a fully configured Telemachus approaches Felik Audio Envy price. You can even buy a Niimbus US4 at that price. 

So I am expecting the 3 owners of Telemachus to give some meaningful reporting, for the good of the community and impartially.


----------



## UntilThen

High end to me is feeling martians right behind me when listening to War of the Worlds. It's tactile and the intensity of the tone ignites me in flames. Susvara wants to be heard loud and it encourages you to. Goosebumps all over now and this album does that. It doesn't grow old. I've heard this album with several of my previous setups but never as involving as this. The Tung Sol 6550 ain't shy to dish up the bass and it's bass that will move the martians, Richard Burton and me !

Now to hear Justin Hayward sing 'Forever Autumn' !


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> High end to me is feeling martians right behind me when listening to War of the Worlds.


Love this album!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Love this album!!!



I sat and listen through the whole album - 2 LPs !


----------



## Zachik

Yup - it is a long one! but most enjoyable


----------



## UntilThen

Next album Enigma - love, sensuality and devotion. Now we're getting more of the dark, haunting tones - which I love. 

Just before I got Odyssey, I ask Tomas how does it sound to him. He said, I can guarantee it will stand out.  Well Odyssey more than stand out for me. I hear and feel the music. It's therapeutic. I know now why we spend so much time on gear because getting one to sound like this is holistic.


----------



## UntilThen

UntilThen said:


> I don't deny but Telemachus price now approaches high end gear price. It's more expensive than Headamp GSK mk2, Cayin HA-300 mk2 and a fully configured Telemachus approaches Felik Audio Envy price. You can even buy a Niimbus US4 at that price.
> 
> So I am expecting the 3 owners of Telemachus to give some meaningful reporting, for the good of the community and impartially.



Don't normally quote myself but there's a fact I like to point out. Ultrasonic amps interior is built with precision and like a tank. I know what the interior of Odyssey looks like. It's not just beautiful but everything is so solidly soldered, screwed and fastened. This kind of workmanship is priceless. When you opt for Yamamoto sockets, you can be assured that Tomas will make it live up to it's price tag.  Each of this amp is individually made. It does not go through an assembly line like those other commercial offerings. So one amp is built per month and it gets all the attention from Tomas. It gets thorough testing and initial burn in before it is shipped out.


----------



## senseitedj

SonicTrance said:


> Another Telemachus complete! This one has SS/tube rectification, speaker and pre-amp outputs.



I can't wait to receive this. Have already got


UntilThen said:


> Don't normally quote myself but there's a fact I like to point out. Ultrasonic amps interior is built with precision and like a tank. I know what the interior of Odyssey looks like. It's not just beautiful but everything is so solidly soldered, screwed and fastened. This kind of workmanship is priceless. When you opt for Yamamoto sockets, you can be assured that Tomas will make it live up to it's price tag.  Each of this amp is individually made. It does not go through an assembly line like those other commercial offerings. So one amp is built per month and it gets all the attention from Tomas. It gets thorough testing and initial burn in before it is shipped out.



Should give the option to have open-worked chassis, maybe with glass peephole on the side/top of the casing?


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Should give the option to have open-worked chassis, maybe with glass peephole on the side/top of the casing?



That would be extra charge. The case is very thick industrial grade aluminium.


----------



## Thaddy (Aug 16, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> I don't deny but Telemachus price now approaches high end gear price. It's more expensive than Headamp GSK mk2, Cayin HA-300 mk2 and a fully configured Telemachus approaches Felik Audio Envy price. You can even buy a Niimbus US4 at that price.
> 
> So I am expecting the 3 owners of Telemachus to give some meaningful reporting, for the good of the community and impartially.


I never would have thought to compare the Telemachus to a GS-X Mk2.  I have one sitting on the shelf below my WA22, which is where the Odyssey will sit when it arrives.  I like the GS-X Mk2, but it just doesn't have the low end punch that good tubes produce.  It's basically "gain with wires", and doesn't add or subtract anything from the music.  It's a very nice compliment to a good tube amp though, especially when you don't want to burn through expensive NOS tubes.  It also has plenty of inputs and other features, like preamp and loop out.


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> I never would have thought to compare the Telemachus to a GS-X Mk2. I have one sitting on the shelf below my WA22, which is where the Odyssey will sit when it arrives. I like the GS-X Mk2, but it just doesn't have the low end punch that good tubes produce. It's basically "gain with wires", and doesn't add or subtract anything from the music. It's a very nice compliment to a good tube amp though, especially when you don't want to burn through expensive NOS tubes. It also has plenty of inputs and other features, like preamp and loop out.



GSX Mk2 is neutral bothering on bright. It will never have the 3d holographic staging that good tube amps produce. It won't have the body and texture of Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime. It will be more like a Usain Bolt.

There's one here in the classifieds for AUD$2600. If I wanted it, I would have got it but do I look like a ss amp lover to you?
https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/553734-headamp-gs-x-mk2-headphone-and-preamp-black/


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> That would be extra charge. The case is very thick industrial grade aluminium.



Yeah maybe @SonicTrance can outline that as an option in his website so people would have a go


----------



## VanHai

Thaddy said:


> I never would have thought to compare the Telemachus to a GS-X Mk2.  I have one sitting on the shelf below my WA22, which is where the Odyssey will sit when it arrives.  I like the GS-X Mk2, but it just doesn't have the low end punch that good tubes produce.  It's basically "gain with wires", and doesn't add or subtract anything from the music.  It's a very nice compliment to a good tube amp though, especially when you don't want to burn through expensive NOS tubes.  It also has plenty of inputs and other features, like preamp and loop out.


I do not have GSX-MK2, but i have GSX-Mini and i like all my tube amps better.


----------



## Thaddy

@VanHai I totally agree. I've yet to own a solid state amp that I like better than a well designed tube amp.


----------



## VanHai

Thaddy said:


> @VanHai I totally agree. I've yet to own a solid state amp that I like better than a well designed tube amp.


My GSX-Mini is on sale in the classifieeds now, i am looking to have an audition with microZOTL 3 in near future. What Dac would you recommend for tube amps.


----------



## Thaddy

I've been using a Benchmark DAC-3 for 4-5 years now.  The earlier versions were a bit polarizing, but the newest revision seems to do a better job of being neutral rather than bright.  I've considered getting another DAC many times, but honestly it seems to be fine.  I much prefer my source to get out of the way and allow me to hear the color added by the tubes and the sound signature of the headphones.


----------



## jonathan c (Aug 16, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> High end to me is feeling martians _bcowen_ right behind me when listening to War of the Worlds _Tarheels_. It's tactile and the intensity of the tone ignites me in flames. Susvara wants to be heard loud and it encourages you to. _This beats the hell out of Ray Coniff & Orchestra…🤣_


----------



## UntilThen

_This beats the hell out of Ray Coniff & Orchestra…🤣_

There are times I actually like these kind of songs. Yesterday in between listening to my LPs, I heard Bobby Goldsboro sing Honey and I go ... aww that's pretty sad.


----------



## UntilThen

And I'm now officially in the queue for Telemachus with an eta of April 2023. What's so special about April? That's Shakespeare, Leonardo Da Vinci, Napoleon Bonaparte's birthday and mine.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> _This beats the hell out of Ray Coniff & Orchestra…🤣_
> 
> There are times I actually like these kind of songs. Yesterday in between listening to my LPs, I heard Bobby Goldsboro sing Honey and I go ... aww that's pretty sad.


😳🤢…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> 😳🤢…



See the amp, how big it's grown
But friend it hasn't been too long
It wasn't big
I laughed at it and it got mad,
The first day that I planted it
Was just a tube


----------



## Isaacc7

Just got to experience one of the advantages of solid state rectifiers. I put a 5ar4 in my amp and turned it on. There was a brief flash and then the amp was dead. Looks like the fuse took one for the team and everything should be fine once I get a hold of a new fuse. This is the first time I have had a previously good tube fail. For the first time in a long time I won't be listening to music tonight.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Just got to experience one of the advantages of solid state rectifiers. I put a 5ar4 in my amp and turned it on. There was a brief flash and then the amp was dead. Looks like the fuse took one for the team and everything should be fine once I get a hold of a new fuse. This is the first time I have had a previously good tube fail. For the first time in a long time I won't be listening to music tonight.



That’s where the mA meters are useful. I was using a tube rectifier and the sound wasn’t as engaging as before. There’s still music but when I look at the mA meters, the reading was zero. So I change the tube rectifier and bingo everything is back to normal again. Meters showing 60 mA !


----------



## gibosi

Isaacc7 said:


> Just got to experience one of the advantages of solid state rectifiers. I put a 5ar4 in my amp and turned it on. There was a brief flash and then the amp was dead. Looks like the fuse took one for the team and everything should be fine once I get a hold of a new fuse. This is the first time I have had a previously good tube fail. For the first time in a long time I won't be listening to music tonight.



But the fuse did it's job! It failed and protected your amp from damage. Fortunately, it doesn't happen all that often, even for me given that I often roll rectifiers. And it serves as a reminder that it is a very good idea to have some extra fuses.


----------



## UntilThen

Just make sure they are not expensive audiophile fuse or you will wish they don’t fail. 😀


----------



## Thaddy

UntilThen said:


> And I'm now officially in the queue for Telemachus with an eta of April 2023. What's so special about April? That's Shakespeare, Leonardo Da Vinci, Napoleon Bonaparte's birthday and mine.


April birthday here as well!  That's very exciting, I can't wait to see the amps that are made over the next 6-8 months.


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> April birthday here as well!  That's very exciting, I can't wait to see the amps that are made over the next 6-8 months.



As long as it doesn’t get to me on the 1st of April. 😝

We know that between now and then, there is at least one push pull, one Odyssey and one Telemachus.

Has the push pull got a name?


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> As long as it doesn’t get to me on the 1st of April. 😝
> 
> We know that between now and then, there is at least one push pull, one Odyssey and one Telemachus.
> 
> Has the push pull got a name?


the Isaac ? _(for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction…)_


----------



## Thaddy

UntilThen said:


> As long as it doesn’t get to me on the 1st of April. 😝
> 
> We know that between now and then, there is at least one push pull, one Odyssey and one Telemachus.
> 
> Has the push pull got a name?


If mine arrived on April 1st it would be a little late but a great birthday present.  I really like _Isaac.  _Or maybe _Penelope_ if you wanted to stick with the Greek theme


----------



## UntilThen

Sirens is a good name. 😉


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Just make sure they are not expensive audiophile fuse or you will wish they don’t fail. 😀


I would rather have a SR Purple or Audio Magic 💥 than the h/p/a 🌋…and have great 🎼 in the meantime.


----------



## Isaacc7

I dunno, having an amp with my name would be a little odd. Especially if it has a nameplate on it. @SonicTrance has weighed in on this before. He has a naming convention but I can't remember what it is. Think it is going to be an Odyssey.


----------



## jonathan c

Isaacc7 said:


> I dunno, having an amp with my name would be a little odd. Especially if it has a nameplate on it. @SonicTrance has weighed in on this before. He has a naming convention but I can't remember what it is. Think it is going to be an Odyssey.


If the amp is for UT, perhaps @SonicTrance will name it: “Odd-is-he” !!!! 🤣


----------



## Isaacc7

jonathan c said:


> If the amp is for UT, perhaps @SonicTrance will name it: “Odd-is-he” !!!! 🤣


Groan... What is UT?


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> I dunno, having an amp with my name would be a little odd



Nothing wrong with your name on it. I would have call mine UntilThen but it’s too late. 😗


----------



## UntilThen

Can 274b rectifier be used in Telemachus?


----------



## Zachik

Thaddy said:


> if you wanted to stick with the Greek theme


I stuck with a Greek theme naming my upcoming amp!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> High end to me is feeling martians right behind me when listening to War of the Worlds. It's tactile and the intensity of the tone ignites me in flames. Susvara wants to be heard loud and it encourages you to. Goosebumps all over now and this album does that. It doesn't grow old. I've heard this album with several of my previous setups but never as involving as this. The Tung Sol 6550 ain't shy to dish up the bass and it's bass that will move the martians, Richard Burton and me !
> 
> Now to hear Justin Hayward sing 'Forever Autumn' !


You need a Koetsu to go on the end of that tonearm.  Tone on steroids.  Just sayin'.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> See the amp, how big it's grown
> But friend it hasn't been too long
> It wasn't big
> I laughed at it and it got mad,
> ...


You should stick to _not_ poetry.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> You need a Koetsu to go on the end of that tonearm.  Tone on steroids.  Just sayin'.



This is a vintage Denon, not a TechDas. So Audio Technica DJ cartridge will do. The martians will be dancing all night long.


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> I stuck with a Greek theme naming my upcoming amp!



Olympus? Zeus?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> This is a vintage Denon, not a TechDas. So Audio Technica DJ cartridge will do. The martians will be dancing all night long.


An Audio Technica DJ cartridge?  *O M G! * My ears are hurting halfway around the globe.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> You should stick to _not_ poetry.



You’re jealous. I thought that was a great attempt for a first poetry. 😀


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> An Audio Technica DJ cartridge?  *O M G! * My ears are hurting halfway around the globe.



You’re so elitist. Wait till I show you my TechDas Airforce Zero.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> An Audio Technica DJ cartridge?  *O M G! * My ears are hurting halfway around the globe.


At least it is not an Empire 440-D quadraphonic cartridge with FR ‘up to 50,000 cycles’ — remember those atrocities? 😳🤣


----------



## jonathan c

Zachik said:


> I stuck with a Greek theme naming my upcoming amp!


_*Narcissus….*_🤣…


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> You’re so elitist. Wait till I show you my TechDas Airforce Zero.


Oh, what happened to Australia AirForce One…✈️…🤷🏻‍♂️?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> You’re so elitist. Wait till I show you my TechDas Airforce Zero.


Please tell me you're not using an Audio Technica DJ cartridge on it too?   🤣  🤣  🤣


----------



## UntilThen

You know the TechDas founder Hideaki work for Stax headphones and Micro Seki before TechDas. He believes in absolute mass so the Airforce Zero has not one but many platters. 

Now Roy Gandy, the maker of my RP8 believes in the opposite - zero mass !

I shall switch my TT later today.


----------



## Zachik

Zachik said:


> I stuck with a Greek theme naming my upcoming amp!





UntilThen said:


> Olympus? Zeus?





jonathan c said:


> _*Narcissus….*_🤣…


None of the above!


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Please tell me you're not using an Audio Technica DJ cartridge on it too?   🤣  🤣  🤣



Ah I just realized it's a Shure M44G DJ phono cartridge. https://www.shure.com/en-EU/products/dj-phono/m44g

Amazing


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey is still my first love. Such lovely tone. Tomas told me that he loves Telemachus the most and that he will build one for himself if he has the time. For me, Telemachus is just a compliment to Odyssey.


----------



## paradoxper

The 300B hold is very real.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> The 300B hold is very real.



300b tubes fits in the palm of the hands nicely. Give it a squeeze gently and it's like stress balls.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> 300b tubes fits in the palm of the hands nicely. Give it a squeeze gently and it's like stress balls.


You'll need stress balls when you're facing the bill for Elrog 300B, Mo, WE300B and Taks for comparative rights. You will also endure bliss.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> You'll need stress balls when you're facing the bill for Elrog 300B, Mo, WE300B and Taks for comparative rights. You will also endure bliss.


----------



## senseitedj (Aug 17, 2022)

SonicTrance said:


> Another Telemachus complete! This one has SS/tube rectification, speaker and pre-amp outputs.



I've got a custom audio rack made just for for the incoming telly, its sitting at the top row naturally. I even put trolley wheels, so I can use the Telemachus as a DAP


----------



## alvin sawdust

senseitedj said:


> I've got a custom audio rack made just for for the incoming telly, its sitting at the top row naturally. I even put trolley wheels, so I can use the Telemachus as a DAP


Bottom section for cocktail making? 🍸


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> I've got a custom audio rack made just for for the incoming telly, its sitting at the top row naturally. I even put trolley wheels, so I can use the Telemachus as a DAP



That looks like a turntable cabinet. You open it up and a turntable arise. Anyway... it's for Telemachus. How heavy is Telemachus? Tomas told me that Odyssey is about 15 kgs but I'm almost certain it's 25 kgs !!! Those 3 irons behind are really heavy.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Tomas told me that Odyssey is about 15 kgs but I'm almost certain it's 25 kgs !!!


When you get older, everything seems to be heavier! 
(speaking from personal experience...)


----------



## whirlwind

Thaddy said:


> I never would have thought to compare the Telemachus to a GS-X Mk2.  I have one sitting on the shelf below my WA22, which is where the Odyssey will sit when it arrives.  I like the GS-X Mk2, but it just doesn't have the low end punch that good tubes produce.  It's basically "gain with wires", and doesn't add or subtract anything from the music.  It's a very nice compliment to a good tube amp though, especially when you don't want to burn through expensive NOS tubes.  It also has plenty of inputs and other features, like preamp and loop out.


Dead on about the GS-X Mk2....great as a pre-amp and when listening to music I get the wonderful warm sound of the NOS dac with no coloration....pretty cool.

I agree about the low end punch....nothing matches tubes!


----------



## senseitedj (Aug 17, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> That looks like a turntable cabinet. You open it up and a turntable arise. Anyway... it's for Telemachus. How heavy is Telemachus? Tomas told me that Odyssey is about 15 kgs but I'm almost certain it's 25 kgs !!! Those 3 irons behind are really heavy.



Yes its custom made, with CAD drawings and all that. Dimensions are tailored to the Telly and I made sure it can handle the weight.

Few off-the-shelf cabinets exists that can meet the spec of the Telemachus.


----------



## UntilThen

What's up folks. I've been rolling LPs instead of tubes.


----------



## SonicTrance

senseitedj said:


> Yes its custom made, with CAD drawings and all that. Dimensions are tailored to the Telly and I made sure it can handle the weight.
> 
> Few off-the-shelf cabinets exists that can meet the spec of the Telemachus.


This is true dedication!


----------



## UntilThen

Such a lovely tone. Any tubes sound great in Odyssey and Susvara is so special when powered by Odyssey. The unpretentious Shuguang Black Treasures KT88-Z on duty now. 

A pretty comprehensive write up on KT88 tubes. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/kt88-superthread.361146/


----------



## Thaddy

@UntilThen, is that a Mullard GZ34 I spot?  I also have some Sylvania VT-231's being delivered today, very excited to give those a shot in the WA22, but of course all of the new tube acquisitions are for Odyssey


----------



## UntilThen

It is Thaddy. Mullard GZ34 f33 made in Brussels. Bought it brand new off a friend for a cheap price.   That Sylvania 6SL7 vt229 is Bcowen's recommendation. He''s more than a caddy. Knows his tubes. This simple setup with the Black Treasures is superb in Odyssey.

You're having a lot of good tubes for Odyssey already. It's going to make you very happy, guaranteed.


----------



## UntilThen

Another nice GZ34 is made in Sittard Holland. This one is AUD$400 .... I have one already. Gibosi's recommendation.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/255615026202?


----------



## Thaddy

Very cool.  I may have to snag some VT-229's to go along with the VT-231's.  My GZ34 is f32, practically looks brand new!


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> I may have to snag some VT-229's to go along with the VT-231's.



VT-229 is 6SL7 (high mu 70) and VT-231 is 6SN7 (medium mu 20). 

I generally prefer to use 6SL7 in Odyssey, when driving Susvara. With He1000se, 6SN7 will do. You're using a pair so your cost is doubled and harder to find.


----------



## Thaddy

I have a pretty good tube supplier who not only has excellent tubes but very fair prices.  I'm able to avoid eBay for the most part.


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> I have a pretty good tube supplier who not only has excellent tubes but very fair prices.  I'm able to avoid eBay for the most part.



When you find a reliable source, you will be happy. It's very hard to find NOS unused tubes such as GEC KT88 and if you do, it will be shocking price. You have already found a mint pair of GEC KT88. Was it worth getting these expensive tubes for Odyssey? Definitely. They only enhanced a very special sounding tube amp. Mind you Odyssey already sound good from a current production Gold Lion KT88 but that is only a taste of what is to come. Among the current production KT88s, Psvane KT88 Tii and Shuguang Black Treasures KT88-Z are decent and worth getting as spares to your GEC KT88.

You have 3 pairs of ZMF headphones. They will sound lovely from Odyssey.


----------



## Thaddy

And again, thanks to @UntilThen I have more tubes on the way for the upcoming Odyssey.  This some some NOS La Radiotechnique EL39's


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> And again, thanks to @UntilThen I have more tubes on the way for the upcoming Odyssey.  This some some NOS La Radiotechnique EL39's



Odyssey is uniquely placed. There are so many gorgeous tubes for it and the La Radiotechnique EL39 is worthy sitting on the throne with GEC KT88. You will be pleased guaranteed.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 20, 2022)

Away for a few days and already missed 7 pages... this thread is beginning to rival the epic - Tolstoy "War and Peace" in terms of number of pages, (1225 pages at the last count). Although... I see there is poetry now included in the many topics so maybe the thread could be conducted in verse from now on... 😀.

Re: the naming convention from the Greek epics I still think "Siren" is appropriate, as, and I quote... _"Returning to Aeaea, they buried Elpenor and were advised by Circe on the remaining stages of the journey. *They skirted the land of the Sirens. All of the sailors had their ears plugged up with beeswax, except for Odysseus, who was tied to the mast as he wanted to hear the song. He told his sailors not to untie him as it would only make him drown himself.* They then passed between the *six-headed monster **Scylla* and the whirlpool Charybdis. Scylla claimed six of his men._

For Odysseus read UT... he wanted to hear the Sirens song, ie. the sound of Sonic's Odyssey, leading to the Whirlpool and the six headed monster, Scylla, ie. UT will eventually own 6 amps beginning with the Odyssey... before drowning in the whirlpool, ie. the sonic bliss of the Telemachus... UT beware!!!!
*🤣🤣*

Just my take on Homer's epic poem.


----------



## UntilThen

That will teach you to disappear for a few days. The next time you come back, there will be no one here.


----------



## UntilThen

Today I say goodbye to Hekse. A chapter has closed and a new one begins with Susvara. Rock classics tonight is supreme. Odyssey can make Susvara slam, shake and bogie. I expect no less from Telemachus. I have a feeling it will be better with Susvara.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> That will teach you to disappear for a few days. The next time you come back, there will be no one here.


Entirely possible, because you will have eaten all of us by then.  I know you're Scylla in disguise.   🤣


----------



## DecentLevi (Aug 22, 2022)

Does anyone have advice on re-tightening tube socket pins in the amp? I was getting sound and light, but an extra hum and no mA reading on one side which caused me to throw away two nice Coke bottle EL12 tubes. It was discovered to have been caused by a loose adapter as shown how slightly rotating the adapter would temporarily quell the problem. It seems the pins on my EL12 to KT66 adapters are perhaps a nanometer thinner than they should be, not always fully making contact with the amp. 

I dug the tubes back out of the trash - rare and worth $300 / pair now for this type and look still in good condition.

I've been getting world class sound from my custom Infinity-Odyssey amp, and I've a feeling there's even more fidelity to be unleashed by upgrading the DAC and headphones surrounding it!


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Does anyone have advice on re-tightening tube socket pins in the amp? I was getting sound and light, but an extra hum and no mA reading on one side which caused me to throw away two nice Coke bottle EL12 tubes. It was discovered to have been caused by a loose adapter as shown how slightly rotating the adapter would temporarily quell the problem. It seems the pins on my EL12 to KT66 adapters are perhaps a nanometer thinner than they should be, not always fully making contact with the amp.
> 
> I dug the tubes back out of the trash - rare and worth $300 / pair now for this type and look still in good condition.
> 
> I've been getting world class sound from my custom Infinity-Odyssey amp, and I've a feeling there's even more fidelity to be unleashed by upgrading the DAC and headphones surrounding it!



Use sockets savers. I have similar problems on some of my NOS tubes. The pins are just thinner and my sockets are no crap expensive Yamamoto sockets. Once the tubes goes into those china made adapters with fatter pins, the contact snaps on and all is good.


----------



## DecentLevi

UntilThen said:


> Use sockets savers. I have similar problems on some of my NOS tubes. The pins are just thinner and my sockets are no crap expensive Yamamoto sockets. Once the tubes goes into those china made adapters with fatter pins, the contact snaps on and all is good.


Cool thanks. Funny thing is that I already have 4x nice socket savers sitting on my side shelf un-used. I've been operating under the assumption that socket savers will reduce / degrade the performance in some way, with the longer signal path. What's your take on that?


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Cool thanks. Funny thing is that I already have 4x nice socket savers sitting on my side shelf un-used. I've been operating under the assumption that socket savers will reduce / degrade the performance in some way, with the longer signal path. What's your take on that?



My take is that your ears aren't good enough to hear any degradation from using good socket savers.

I had mention this before. The Yamamoto sockets are wider and the GEC KT88 pins are narrower. The result is not good contact. I was using it for a few minutes and the right channel sound disappeared. I thought my precious GEC KT88 had died. 

So I put them on socket savers and bingo they start to sound like the famed GEC again.


----------



## bcowen

DecentLevi said:


> Does anyone have advice on re-tightening tube socket pins in the amp? I was getting sound and light, but an extra hum and no mA reading on one side which caused me to throw away two nice Coke bottle EL12 tubes. It was discovered to have been caused by a loose adapter as shown how slightly rotating the adapter would temporarily quell the problem. It seems the pins on my EL12 to KT66 adapters are perhaps a nanometer thinner than they should be, not always fully making contact with the amp.
> 
> I dug the tubes back out of the trash - rare and worth $300 / pair now for this type and look still in good condition.
> 
> I've been getting world class sound from my custom Infinity-Odyssey amp, and I've a feeling there's even more fidelity to be unleashed by upgrading the DAC and headphones surrounding it!


I use a sharp pick to pry inwards around the contact. Trick is to go slowly working around the perimeter and don't get all Rambo with it and bend it in too far at any point.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BKYRM6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I use a sharp pick to pry inwards around the contact. Trick is to go slowly working around the perimeter and don't get all Rambo with it and bend it in too far at any point.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BKYRM6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Bcowen! …did you take out your dentures? 🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I use a sharp pick to pry inwards around the contact. Trick is to go slowly working around the perimeter and don't get all Rambo with it and bend it in too far at any point.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BKYRM6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


That is a great demonstration!


----------



## UntilThen

@senseitedj has the carrier pigeon delivered Telemachus to you yet?


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> I use a sharp pick to pry inwards around the contact. Trick is to go slowly working around the perimeter and don't get all Rambo with it and bend it in too far at any point.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BKYRM6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I had to do something similar with BNC connectors that I have which are quite loose, even when fitted properly. @DecentLevi a pair of long nose pliers should do the trick!

Using adapters will not significantly add to the signal path so no need to worry about increased impedance or anything.


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> Bcowen! …did you take out your dentures? 🤣


Haha! He'll be trying to floss his tubes next 🤣.


----------



## DecentLevi (Aug 23, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> My take is that your ears aren't good enough to hear any degradation from using good socket savers.
> 
> I had mention this before. The Yamamoto sockets are wider and the GEC KT88 pins are narrower. The result is not good contact. I was using it for a few minutes and the right channel sound disappeared. I thought my precious GEC KT88 had died.
> 
> So I put them on socket savers and bingo they start to sound like the famed GEC again.





baronbeehive said:


> I had to do something similar with BNC connectors that I have which are quite loose, even when fitted properly. @DecentLevi a pair of long nose pliers should do the trick!
> 
> Using adapters will not significantly add to the signal path so no need to worry about increased impedance or anything.


I'm calling this one. I just compared the performance of my system first with socket savers then without. With, it sounded resolving and good, just OK. I noticed the lows sounded somewhat smeared and fake and both dynamics and sense of realism were _good_ but didn't impress me very much. Without the socket savers I truthfully had myself questioning if I'm still hearing the same song or the same amp... because yes this is closer to the truth. Realistic quality dramatically improved along with dynamics, clarity and images really popped out much much better than with the socket savers.

There was a 5-min. amp cool down period between but the test was done with a well mastered test song I've heard 100's of times and I'm willing to go on record with a polygraph that the difference is BAR NONE without vs. with. So off my socket savers go unless absolutely critical. At least I know how to maintain the socket pins in case needed. THEORY 100% BUSTED for me. And this was only using 2 socket savers (output). Just imagine how much worse it would've sounded with more.

This is also a testament to my hearing and resolving ability of my system - which also has a lot to do with the way my entire system is set up as a whole, many tweaks I have done that have a tremendous cumulative effect.


 this is the one I used


----------



## UntilThen

Alright DL if you think your hearing is superb and your tweaks makes your system out of this world then enjoy. Leave us mere mortals alone.


----------



## DecentLevi (Aug 23, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Alright DL if you think your hearing is superb and your tweaks makes your system out of this world then enjoy. Leave us mere mortals alone.


Discovery along an audio journey is a two way street. I learned many great things from you, and I have experiences to share as well, and several people have recently validated my other achievements.  If something sucks I'm not afraid to say it, and total transparency is the way to progress on Head-Fi, but only if I've carefully tried it first.  Renouncing someone for their opinions and arbitrarily dismissing new concepts does not lead to progress. It was not meant against you, but I do believe you would hear the same thing as I do in the right condition, as I have heard from many of your discoveries. Now life goes on.


----------



## triod750

Not all socket savers are the same. Some are badly made. Don't rule this out.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 23, 2022)

DecentLevi said:


> I'm calling this one. I just compared the performance of my system first with socket savers then without. With, it sounded resolving and good, just OK. this is the one I used


Just wondered if you  use caig deoxit on the old pins, and the adapter pins?

Edit: Also to avoid false positives you should keep the volume constant between testing.

When I was testing between high res and normal res music I randomized the tracks and it made it far more difficult to pick up the differences when I didn't know which was which.


----------



## DecentLevi

baronbeehive said:


> Just wondered if you  use caig deoxit on the old pins, and the adapter pins?
> 
> Edit: Also to avoid false positives you should keep the volume constant between testing.
> 
> When I was testing between high res and normal res music I randomized the tracks and it made it far more difficult to pick up the differences when I didn't know which was which.


Valid point, there is still potential with better socket savers. Mine appear to be made of nickel or even aluminum. Just tested it with a magnet and it's not even magnetized. I actually cleaned all my contact points with something even better: isopropyl alcohol, then a contact enhancer called Furutech Nano Liquid. This works by fusing silver and gold nanoparticles to the contact surface (headphone / RCA jacks, tube pins, AC cables, USB cables, etc.) and it made a noticeable improvement to my entire system, and helped to bring my Ultrasonic Studios amp to its' full potential. I started slowly and methodically and heard an improvement almost everywhere I used it, as had the others who have been lucky enough to find this tweak. Even someone as experimental as me was quite skeptical from the beginning believe me - but the proof was in the pudding! This can be perceived as pie in the sky, but nowadays I thoroughly test anything new for at least 2-4 weeks before publicly remarking on it. 
It was recommended to me from someone with 25 years in the hobby and you can read more here.


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 23, 2022)

DecentLevi said:


> Valid point, there is still potential with better socket savers. Mine appear to be made of nickel or even aluminum. Just tested it with a magnet and it's not even magnetized. I actually cleaned all my contact points with something even better: isopropyl alcohol, then a contact enhancer called Furutech Nano Liquid. This works by fusing silver and gold nanoparticles to the contact surface (headphone / RCA jacks, tube pins, AC cables, USB cables, etc.) and it made a noticeable improvement to my entire system, and helped to bring my Ultrasonic Studios amp to its' full potential. I started slowly and methodically and heard an improvement almost everywhere I used it, as had the others who have been lucky enough to find this tweak. Even someone as experimental as me was quite skeptical from the beginning believe me - but the proof was in the pudding! This can be perceived as pie in the sky, but nowadays I thoroughly test anything new for at least 2-4 weeks before publicly remarking on it.
> It was recommended to me from someone with 25 years in the hobby and you can read more here.


Interesting! I wouldn't like to comment except to say that the silver and gold crystal structure of some variety the of the neotech cables is said by some to enhance sound also. If the theory behind what you say actually works then it could be another enhancement. But re: socket savers, if they are good quality they would at least save on wear and tear of the amp sockets which is where the problems arise.

Edit: If UT didn't have socket savers he would have worn out those precious Yamamoto sockets ages ago 😀.


----------



## alvin sawdust

Frankentele! Not the prettiest adapters. Already had one adapter from when I had the Apex Teton and the second one arrived today from Xulingmrs. I initially used a set of 7193 Ken-Rad but found them to be detailed but a little sharp. Forgot I had these Hammersmith cv1135/det20 and pleased to say they sound very nice, just have to remember the anode and grid caps are opposite positions to the 7193.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Only case I can think of where using a socket saver might actually degrade performance is in a stage using a high gm tube that is prone to oscillation, like a 417A, as the grid stoppers would no longer be optimally positioned being further from the tube pins, could cause parasitic oscillation.  But that's a pretty specific scenario and probably doesn't apply here, otherwise I doubt there is much audible difference 🤷‍♂️ just my opinion.  I find that brains / ears are more changeable than amplifiers.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Bcowen! …did you take out your dentures? 🤣


Denture.  Not plural.  I only had one tooth to begin with.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Denture.  Not plural.  I only had one tooth to begin with.


It all balances: one tooth in mouth, one tube in Vali…. the universe in a nutshell !!….


----------



## jonathan c

L0rdGwyn said:


> I find that brains / ears are more changeable than amplifiers….


….and like some NOS tubes are scarce 🤔….


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> Frankentele! Not the prettiest adapters. Already had one adapter from when I had the Apex Teton and the second one arrived today from Xulingmrs. I initially used a set of 7193 Ken-Rad but found them to be detailed but a little sharp. Forgot I had these Hammersmith cv1135/det20 and pleased to say they sound very nice, just have to remember the anode and grid caps are opposite positions to the 7193.



Holy doly I didn't think you can frankenstein a clean looking Telemachus but you did it.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> otherwise I doubt there is much audible difference 🤷‍♂️



That just shows you're a mere mortal like me. I have 3 different types of octal socket savers of varying quality.

1.  From Pulse - this is the most expensive of the lot and it looks good.
2.  24k gold plated from Mrsxuling
3.  Black caviar from Ali Baba 

None of these had any hum or noise with any of my snobbery NOS tubes. Neither did I hear any difference with or without and I won't spend a week investigating it with attentive listening because life is too short to compare with or without socket savers.

Invariably some of my tubes need conversion sockets like 807, EL39, EL12 spez, EL156. Do I feel they sound inferior compared to their socketless cousins? Absolutely not.

Peace and out until I hear some Telemachus impressions.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Telemachus, I wonder what character comes next.  My vote: Polyphemus, with a big magic eye VU meter in the center 👁️


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Telemachus, I wonder what character comes next.  My vote: Polyphemus, with a big magic eye VU meter in the center 👁️


I was hoping for Bart Simpson.   🤣


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I was hoping for Bart Simpson.   🤣



Bart Simpson is taken. So is Homer. Got to come up with something more original.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Bart Simpson is taken. So is Homer. Got to come up with something more original.


Maybe "Anti-_Matt_-er"?   🤣


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Maybe "Anti-_Matt_-er"?   🤣



Not a good name. Try BillyTheKid.


----------



## LoryWiv

Apollo, god of music (and more).


----------



## alvin sawdust

bcowen said:


> I was hoping for Bart Simpson.   🤣


Or Trump with sixteen tubes for a huge orange glow.


----------



## alvin sawdust

UntilThen said:


> Holy doly I didn't think you can frankenstein a clean looking Telemachus but you did it.


Yes, decided it was a crime against humanity and have gone back to 6f8g


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Maybe "Anti-_Matt_-er"? 🤣


"Auntie Hattie" 😃


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> Maybe "Anti-_Matt_-er"? 🤣


... or perhaps "Mad Hatter" 🤣.


----------



## baronbeehive

alvin sawdust said:


> Yes, decided it was a crime against humanity and have gone back to 6f8g


What is your opinion of those tubes?


----------



## baronbeehive

L0rdGwyn said:


> Only case I can think of where using a socket saver might actually degrade performance is in a stage using a high gm tube that is prone to oscillation, like a 417A, as the grid stoppers would no longer be optimally positioned being further from the tube pins, could cause parasitic oscillation.  But that's a pretty specific scenario and probably doesn't apply here, otherwise I doubt there is much audible difference 🤷‍♂️ just my opinion.  I find that brains / ears are more changeable than amplifiers.


They could actually improve performance with some short pin tubes which might struggle to make good contact with the amp socket.


----------



## alvin sawdust

baronbeehive said:


> What is your opinion of those tubes?


If you mean the 6f8g then very nice. They allow the 300b 3d aspect to shine and have that nice robust rca low end. Just a nicely balanced tube really.


----------



## jonathan c (Aug 25, 2022)

alvin sawdust said:


> Or Trump with sixteen tubes for a huge orange glow.


*M*ake *A*mplifiers *G*low *A*ggressively


----------



## paradoxper

alvin sawdust said:


> Frankentele! Not the prettiest adapters. Already had one adapter from when I had the Apex Teton and the second one arrived today from Xulingmrs. I initially used a set of 7193 Ken-Rad but found them to be detailed but a little sharp. Forgot I had these Hammersmith cv1135/det20 and pleased to say they sound very nice, just have to remember the anode and grid caps are opposite positions to the 7193.


You need to throw Elrogs in there to take things to the nth absurdity.


----------



## baronbeehive

alvin sawdust said:


> If you mean the 6f8g then very nice. They allow the 300b 3d aspect to shine and have that nice robust rca low end. Just a nicely balanced tube really.


Interesting you say that, I've always thought of RCA's to be very balanced tubes which is why I like them 👍.


----------



## OctavianH

This is something new for me. Interesting, nice to meet you, Psíthyros.


----------



## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> This is something new for me. Interesting, nice to meet you, Psíthyros.


👍👍👍.


----------



## Thaddy

baronbeehive said:


> Interesting you say that, I've always thought of RCA's to be very balanced tubes which is why I like them 👍.


I pretty much always have RCA rectifier or preamp tubes in my WA22, and have a healthy collection ready for my upcoming Odyssey as well.  I find them to pair well with ZMF's and the type of music I prefer to listen to.  Plus, you don't have to pay Tung-Sol or NOS British prices for them!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

OctavianH said:


> This is something new for me. Interesting, nice to meet you, Psíthyros.



I had a very similar amplifier a few years ago, actively loaded tube gain stage, FET buffer, parafeed output.  No longer around RIP, although the input stage was a filament biased 841 DHT rather than a 6SN7.  A linear input tube working into an active load and a direct-coupled FET buffer makes for extremely low distortion.  I think I used a Cree SiC FET in the end so the schematic is not exact.  The output transformers were Sowter 8665.


----------



## Zachik

OctavianH said:


> This is something new for me. Interesting, nice to meet you, Psíthyros.


Very 1st one will find its home with me


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Very 1st one will find its home with me



You collecting amps?


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> You collecting amps?


Yup. And since the Psíthyros was designed for me, I got to name it


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Zachik said:


> Yup. And since the Psíthyros was designed for me, I got to name it



I thought you were at one more amp...two amps ago


----------



## jonathan c

L0rdGwyn said:


> I thought you were at one more amp...two amps ago


…the _ampha _and the _omega…🤔😖👎_


----------



## Zachik

L0rdGwyn said:


> I thought you were at one more amp...two amps ago


Yup. I should stop believing my own lies...


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Yup. And since the Psíthyros was designed for me, I got to name it



Congrats. Nothing beats naming your own amp.  What does it mean? Goddess of voice?


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Congrats. Nothing beats naming your own amp.  What does it mean? Goddess of voice?


Greek for Whisper. This amp is optimized for IEMs - low power but super low noise floor. Psíthyros will make my IEMs whisper into my ears!!


----------



## triod750 (Aug 29, 2022)

Zachik said:


> Greek for Whisper. This amp is optimized for IEMs - low power but super low noise floor. Psíthyros will make my IEMs whisper into my ears!!


Clever, but you have to be careful with the volume level. The cleaner the sound the more danger for hearing damage due to long listening sessions at too high sound level. Our hearing needs to  rest now and then. Long listening sessions can accelerate hearing degradation even at more modest listening levels. We are subject to sound and noise everywhere and this can be harmful in the long run or even faster than that.


----------



## jonathan c

L0rdGwyn said:


> I thought you were at one more amp...two amps ago


He’s just building the ultimate / ♾ _pre-amp_ chain for his DarkVoice…🤪


----------



## Zachik

triod750 said:


> Clever, but you have to be careful with the volume level. The cleaner the sound the more danger for hearing damage due to long listening sessions at too high sound level. Our hearing needs to  rest now and then. Long listening sessions can accelerate hearing degradation even at more modest listening levels. We are subject to sound and noise everywhere and this can be harmful in the long run or even faster than that.


Good advice!  To be honest, I am VERY careful with listening levels when using IEMs. Much more so than headphones.
Also, for better or worse, I never seem to have the time (or opportunity) for marathon sessions. So, I think I am safe, but good advice to everyone here for sure


----------



## UntilThen

I have not listen to my headphone for 3 days. A break is good. When you go back to it, you'll be amazed.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

triod750 said:


> Clever, but you have to be careful with the volume level. The cleaner the sound the more danger for hearing damage due to long listening sessions at too high sound level. Our hearing needs to  rest now and then. Long listening sessions can accelerate hearing degradation even at more modest listening levels. We are subject to sound and noise everywhere and this can be harmful in the long run or even faster than that.



Definitely true.  I have this problem when critical listening, I'll do it nonstop for days on a new piece of gear, then the ears become strained and they lose their use as tools since everything sounds terrible...a bad habit.



UntilThen said:


> I have not listen to my headphone for 3 days. A break is good. When you go back to it, you'll be amazed.



And some of the novelty of your first listen returns  I'm looking forward to coming home for this.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> And some of the novelty of your first listen returns  I'm looking forward to coming home for this.



Wow it's the best sound in the world. 4 days of not listening with this setup and it's more than just novelty returning.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Wow it's the best sound in the world. 4 days of not listening with this setup and it's more than just novelty returning.


I had the same impression when returning from holiday after around 2.x weeks of not listening. So the key to success is to avoid using your amp  (joking)


----------



## baronbeehive

triod750 said:


> Clever, but you have to be careful with the volume level. The cleaner the sound the more danger for hearing damage due to long listening sessions at too high sound level. Our hearing needs to  rest now and then. Long listening sessions can accelerate hearing degradation even at more modest listening levels. We are subject to sound and noise everywhere and this can be harmful in the long run or even faster than that.


Yep! I never did enjoy listening with IEM's even though the sound was excellent. Nowadays I listen at moderate levels as you say and only pump up the volume now and again. Good advice!


----------



## baronbeehive (Aug 30, 2022)

Zachik said:


> Greek for Whisper. This amp is optimized for IEMs - low power but super low noise floor. Psíthyros will make my IEMs whisper into my ears!!


Ha! When I looked it up I misread Psithyros for Psithyr*u*s which is a species of parasitic bumblebee LOL. I wondered why the naming convention had changed from the Greek!


----------



## baronbeehive

Thaddy said:


> I pretty much always have RCA rectifier or preamp tubes in my WA22, and have a healthy collection ready for my upcoming Odyssey as well.  I find them to pair well with ZMF's and the type of music I prefer to listen to.  Plus, you don't have to pay Tung-Sol or NOS British prices for them!


Absolutely! Yes, they were the first tubes I tried way back, I liked them then and still do, having tried many others including the holy grail types. I don't think RCA's get the love the deserve.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I had the same impression when returning from holiday after around 2.x weeks of not listening. So the key to success is to avoid using your amp  (joking)



The key is to give your ears and amps a break and come back fresh.


----------



## UntilThen

Clayton has his Wall of Woo. I will have my Wall of Ultrasonic Studio amps.  

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/2359glenn-studio.600110/post-17120012


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> I have not listen to my headphone for 3 days. A break is good. When you go back to it, you'll be amazed.



 So true. I listened every single day before work early in the morning, never missed a day.

Now that I am retired, I listen to IEM's a lot because I am on the go more. I have spent most of my time golfing lately and will miss a couple of days here and there

of the more critical listening with my headphones.

When you come back it is like...wow....this sounds fantastic....breaks are good.


----------



## UntilThen

Enjoy your retirement Joe. The gear are all optimized and all ready for your enjoyment. Golf too. One more day and we step into Spring here. It's been a cold winter but sunshine is ahead.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Wow it's the best sound in the world. 4 days of not listening with this setup and it's more than just novelty returning.


Absence makes the heart ears grow fonder.  I read that on the internet so it must be true.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Absence makes the heart ears grow fonder.  I read that on the internet so it must be true.



I did it again. Stop listening for a few days and just started listening again with Odyssey and Susvara and all hell broke loose.  These Sowter transformers do sound very good.

However I'll follow Tomas switching to Monolith Magnetics output transformers for Telemachus. Always interesting to try something new !


----------



## bcowen (Sep 2, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> I did it again. Stop listening for a few days and just started listening again with Odyssey and Susvara and all hell broke loose.  These Sowter transformers do sound very good.
> 
> However I'll follow Tomas switching to Monolith Magnetics output transformers for Telemachus. Always interesting to try something new !


I wonder how Telemachus would sound configured to run a pair of (high current) KR 300BXLS tubes.  300B's with balls, sorta.  Maybe too much power** for headphones?

The KR's could be used in Telemachus as it is, but they may not sound as good (or good at all), if "under-juiced."

**like that could actually be a thing


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I wonder how Telemachus would sound configured to run a pair of (high current) KR 300BXLS tubes.  300B's with balls, sorta.  Maybe too much power** for headphones?
> 
> The KR's could be used in Telemachus as it is, but they may not sound as good (or good at all), if "under-juiced."
> 
> **like that could actually be a thing



If the amp is build just for KR 300BXLS, then I'm only limited to using those 300b tubes. If KR goes bust, my amp will become a giant door stopper.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> If the amp is build just for KR 300BXLS, then I'm only limited to using those 300b tubes. If KR goes bust, my amp will become a giant door stopper.


Says the guy with backup tubes for his backup tubes for his backup tubes.   🤣 

Emission Labs makes a high current version too.  I like the KR's better myself, but that's personal preference and likely amp dependent as well.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Says the guy with backup tubes for his backup tubes for his backup tubes. 🤣



It's the reason why Odyssey wasn't made for just Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez, as tempting as that may be since I've backup of backups of those tubes.   

Anyhoo, here's Odyssey walking on a year on.


----------



## UntilThen

Obviously no Liverpool supporters here.   You should hear 95,000 fans sing You will never walk alone.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Obviously no Liverpool supporters here.   You should hear 95,000 fans sing You will never walk alone.


Is _that_ what they were singing the last time I caddied for you?  I guess I misunderstood the lyrics as "You will never hole in one."   🤣


----------



## alvin sawdust

UntilThen said:


> I did it again. Stop listening for a few days and just started listening again with Odyssey and Susvara and all hell broke loose.  These Sowter transformers do sound very good.
> 
> However I'll follow Tomas switching to Monolith Magnetics output transformers for Telemachus. Always interesting to try something new !


Has Tomas given a reason for changing to Monolith Magnetics?


----------



## SonicTrance

alvin sawdust said:


> Has Tomas given a reason for changing to Monolith Magnetics?


The long lead times from Sowter is the nr 1 reason. I’ll build the first Telemachus with Monolith transformers in November. That amp is for myself. That way I can decide if I like them better or not.


----------



## alvin sawdust

SonicTrance said:


> The long lead times from Sowter is the nr 1 reason. I’ll build the first Telemachus with Monolith transformers in November. That amp is for myself. That way I can decide if I like them better or not.


Thanks for the reply Tomas. Mine is starting to spread it's wings, wonderful amp.


----------



## SonicTrance

alvin sawdust said:


> Thanks for the reply Tomas. Mine is starting to spread it's wings, wonderful amp.


I'm glad you're enjoying your new amp!


----------



## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> The long lead times from Sowter is the nr 1 reason. I’ll build the first Telemachus with Monolith transformers in November. That amp is for myself. That way I can decide if I like them better or not.


Heh, sounds like I’ve started something lol. Aside from price, I have only heard good things about Monolithic Magnetics transformers from both a builder and listener point of view. Fingers crossed that I’ve decided well, they cost a freaking fortune. @SonicTrance aren’t they one of the few still doing custom power transformers?


----------



## SonicTrance

Isaacc7 said:


> Heh, sounds like I’ve started something lol. Aside from price, I have only heard good things about Monolithic Magnetics transformers from both a builder and listener point of view. Fingers crossed that I’ve decided well, they cost a freaking fortune. @SonicTrance aren’t they one of the few still doing custom power transformers?


Your amp will be the first time I get to hear the Monolith's! I'm very excited! 
I've spoken to them regarding custom OT's but they want to build prototypes first and they have very little time to do so. So, for starters I'm using their off the shelf transformers. They do make custom mains transformers though, as you know.


----------



## alvin sawdust

Isaacc7 said:


> Heh, sounds like I’ve started something lol. Aside from price, I have only heard good things about Monolithic Magnetics transformers from both a builder and listener point of view. Fingers crossed that I’ve decided well, they cost a freaking fortune. @SonicTrance aren’t they one of the few still doing custom power transformers?


Regarding the Monoliths are you going for Summit, Amorph or Nano-x?


----------



## Isaacc7

alvin sawdust said:


> Regarding the Monoliths are you going for Summit, Amorph or Nano-x?


Pretty sure mine are the Summit. I don't think core material is as important for push pull designs. Or at least I hope so lol.


----------



## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> Your amp will be the first time I get to hear the Monolith's! I'm very excited!
> I've spoken to them regarding custom OT's but they want to build prototypes first and they have very little time to do so. So, for starters I'm using their off the shelf transformers. They do make custom mains transformers though, as you know.


They have very little time to do so? Huh, is business that brisk or is the business a side gig?


----------



## SonicTrance

alvin sawdust said:


> Regarding the Monoliths are you going for Summit, Amorph or Nano-x?


Summit for my amp. I doubt the higher end models are worth it but who knows. I’d of course use whatever model the client wants. 



Isaacc7 said:


> They have very little time to do so? Huh, is business that brisk or is the business a side gig?


They have a lot to do apparently. They don’t prioritize custom work but they are pretty fast on delivery of stock parts.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Is _that_ what they were singing the last time I caddied for you?  I guess I misunderstood the lyrics as "You will never hole in one."   🤣



The chances of a hole in one is practically zero so I'm ok with them singing that.



SonicTrance said:


> The long lead times from Sowter is the nr 1 reason. I’ll build the first Telemachus with Monolith transformers in November. That amp is for myself. That way I can decide if I like them better or not.



You'll be the guinea pig so to speak.  As good looking as the Sowter Telemachus is, this Monolith's Telemachus will also look stunning with the covers and silver on black contrast.



SonicTrance said:


> Summit for my amp. I doubt the higher end models are worth it but who knows. I’d of course use whatever model the client wants.



Even Summit is a little more expensive than Sowter, so summit-fi it will be.


----------



## UntilThen

Berlin tubes back in action in UL mode. These Telefunkens are that good. Super quiet with Susvara.


----------



## UntilThen

There has been an absence of Telemachus impressions / reviews. I'm waiting.............................................


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> There has been an absence of Telemachus impressions / reviews. I'm waiting.............................................


Yep, I've been holding my breath for an age now... I think members are giving you a break to practise on the green... at least when you manage to get on the green that is 🙂.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> *I did it again. Stop listening for a few days* and just started listening again with Odyssey and Susvara and all hell broke loose.  These Sowter transformers do sound very good.
> 
> However I'll follow Tomas switching to Monolith Magnetics output transformers for Telemachus. Always interesting to try something new !


I wouldn't do that... the withdrawals could get nasty 🤣.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> If the amp is build just for KR 300BXLS, then I'm only limited to using those 300b tubes. If KR goes bust, my amp will become a giant door stopper.


Your door stopper will be the envy of all your friends... and you can use your others for the other doors, and still have the Odyssey and Telemachus to spare 😀.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I wouldn't do that... the withdrawals could get nasty 🤣.



Withdrawals can get nasty indeed. Which is why after Father's Day dinner, I settle down to listen to some classical and I was captivated by Overture - William Tell. It was really nice on my system but then I saw Glenn Campbell playing it on Youtube and he's a legend.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Withdrawals can get nasty indeed. Which is why after Father's Day dinner, I settle down to listen to some classical and I was captivated by Overture - William Tell. It was really nice on my system but then I saw Glenn Campbell playing it on Youtube and *he's a legend.*



Legend indeed, and a great guitarist! We used to watch him on his show every week.


----------



## UntilThen

Then I listen to Piano Concerto No 21 in C minor. This is the most beautiful music in the world and it's written by a guy name Mozart !


----------



## UntilThen

Late Sat night listening. Change of tubes. I know how 596 sound. I know how KT66 sound. I know how Sylvania 6SL7GT VT-229 sound. I know how Sowter OT sound. I know collectively how they sound. I know how Susvara sound when driven by Odyssey with dac from Yggdrasil. 

It's a quiet satisfaction as I spend time listening to music of my choice. With tones such as this, it has been all worth it.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Legend indeed, and a great guitarist! We used to watch him on his show every week.


You were lucky.  This is the only show we could tune in with the rabbit-ear antenna:





Joking aside though, both Buck Owens and Roy Clark were pretty talented musicians.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

SonicTrance said:


> Your amp will be the first time I get to hear the Monolith's! I'm very excited!
> I've spoken to them regarding custom OT's but they want to build prototypes first and they have very little time to do so. So, for starters I'm using their off the shelf transformers. They do make custom mains transformers though, as you know.



It was a big loss for Sowter to limit their offerings, high quality custom mains are now hard to come by, at least Monolith Magnetics is still providing this service.  I had a few custom mains made by Sowter for DHT circuits with the filament windings included, a huge benefit, requires multiple electrostatic shields to limit low frequency coupling between the windings.  I wonder of MM could do the same 

The number of custom audio transformer vendors seems to go down year by year, I've decided I am going to take the plunge into coil winding and start making my own inductors.  The first step of course is to read a lot of books and reference materials lol.


----------



## SonicTrance (Sep 4, 2022)

L0rdGwyn said:


> It was a big loss for Sowter to limit their offerings, high quality custom mains are now hard to come by, at least Monolith Magnetics is still providing this service. I had a few custom mains made by Sowter for DHT circuits with the filament windings included, a huge benefit, requires multiple electrostatic shields to limit low frequency coupling between the windings. I wonder of MM could do the same


Yes, definitely! Custom mains, and OT’s, are very nice to have, especially OT’s. For Telemachus I use Hammond 300BX mains which has two filament windings for the 300B’s. I send them to a voltage doubler and then a regulator for a super clean 5.0 VDC. Works great!



L0rdGwyn said:


> The number of custom audio transformer vendors seems to go down year by year, I've decided I am going to take the plunge into coil winding and start making my own inductors. The first step of course is to read a lot of books and reference materials lol.


Wow! Thats cool! If I only had the time for that, lol  Working full time and also building amps I really don’t have time to learn something new as complex as winding transformer! Maybe we could team up later! I’d buy your transformers


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Maybe we could team up later! I’d buy your transformers



A collaboration? Looking forward to it. I got a card, a present and a dinner for Father's Day and I'm listening with my GEC KT88 and A2900 tubes. Feel spoil rotten !


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> A collaboration? Looking forward to it. I got a card, a present and a dinner for Father's Day and I'm listening with my GEC KT88 and A2900 tubes. Feel spoil rotten !


Somehow that card seems fitting.    🤣


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Sep 4, 2022)

SonicTrance said:


> Yes, definitely! Custom mains, and OT’s, are very nice to have, especially OT’s. For Telemachus I use Hammond 330BX mains which has two filament windings for the 300B’s. I send them to a voltage doubler and then a regulator for a super clean 5.0 VDC. Works great!
> 
> Wow! Thats cool! If I only had the time for that, lol  Working full time and also building amps I really don’t have time to learn something new as complex as winding transformer! Maybe we could team up later! I’d buy your transformers



Great you were able to use the Hammond, it fits in perfectly with the aesthetic of the Sowters too 

That would be cool!  I'm just diving it, but it's definitely complex lol going to take some time and energy that's for sure, probably a ways off before I get the hang of it.  I'll be going deep into theory / planning for a while, then once I have a good idea of what I am going to do, I'll likely go with a hand crank winder for the first few, going to be some trial and error, then perhaps a fancier CNC winder if things get serious.  Gotta find a good source for the lams, bobbins, wire...it's gonna be a big project, but man, it would be so freeing to be able to wind inductors for any project!  I'll report back if I have some success.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Great you were able to use the Hammond, it fits in perfectly with the aesthetic of the Sowters too



The Hammond will get a black matte cover to match with Monolith OT as well. Waiting to see how Tomas's Telemachus turns out.


----------



## DecentLevi

Recently been lovin' the 2x EL12 Spez (Tungsram) + 2x GEC L63 (6J5 replacement) combo on my "Finyssey" custom amp. It's a sound I would describe as timeless and splentacular (splendid and spectacular). Most pairings with these GECs had some synergy drawback or another, but this combo has energy and character to reproduce ALL genres with finesse and fidelity in droves. Also coaxed along quite nicely with the addition of several recent cable upgrades throughout my system, and the fact that these tubes are tested and match perfectly. 

I think the vibe I've been getting lately could be generally conveyed with this song, and this. 


Along with _retro_ African, Latin, French, Italian, Japanese and Korean pop & folk, I'm realizing how great retro Arabic pop is too.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> You were lucky.  This is the only show we could tune in with the rabbit-ear antenna:
> 
> 
> 
> Joking aside though, both Buck Owens and Roy Clark were pretty talented musicians.


Haha, looks like I missed out on that one unfortunately ☹️.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Haha, looks like I missed out on that one unfortunately ☹️.


How about Carol Burnett?  I caught a re-run a short time back and it was _still_ funny.   🤣


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Recently been lovin' the 2x EL12 Spez (Tungsram) + 2x GEC L63 (6J5 replacement) combo on my "Finyssey" custom amp. It's a sound I would describe as timeless and splentacular (splendid and spectacular). Most pairings with these GECs had some synergy drawback or another, but this combo has energy and character to reproduce ALL genres with finesse and fidelity in droves. Also coaxed along quite nicely with the addition of several recent cable upgrades throughout my system, and the fact that these tubes are tested and match perfectly.
> 
> I think the vibe I've been getting lately could be generally conveyed with this song, and this.
> 
> ...




I've to give you a like because you did come back and post some impressions. Seems like other owners have gone underground.


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> How about Carol Burnett?  I caught a re-run a short time back and it was _still_ funny. 🤣


No we didn't get that over here sadly, it looks pretty funny from the youtube clips. I seem to remember "I Love Lucy" and a few others going back into the dim and distant past.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> No we didn't get that over here sadly, it looks pretty funny from the youtube clips. I seem to remember "I Love Lucy" and a few others going back into the dim and distant past.



I didn't know you guys are that old. I Love Lucy dates back to 1951.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> I didn't know you guys are that old. I Love Lucy dates back to 1951.


Here in the states I Love Lucy was shown through the 80s at least on some channel or other. Many of the classic shows lived in syndication for decades.


----------



## UntilThen

It's past midnight and I'm still awake listening to music. These Philips Miniwatt EL34 double D getters with RCA 5691 (GE branded) sound crazy amazing. I had wanted to preserve the EL34 as I had bought them brand new but to do so would be denying my ears of ecstasy. Susvara has never sounded this good !


----------



## UntilThen

I read on the Viva Egoista 845 thread someone ordering Feliks Audio Envy to drive Susvara because there has been reports that it's a great pairing. 

If only they had heard Susvara driven by Odyssey. It's the pinnacle. It's nirvana.  I have no doubt that Telemachus will do just as well. Odyssey's tuning sound incredible. Tomas has done a superb job and yet he tells me that Telemachus is his favorite. So much so he's building a Telemachus for himself in November.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> How about Carol Burnett?  I caught a re-run a short time back and it was _still_ funny. 🤣


A rerun?…Not the actual live show 😂?


----------



## audiargent (Sep 7, 2022)

Oddysey playing Dire Straits at night! 

I'm running Tung-Sol 5AR4s, 6SL7GT Gold Pins, KT170s.

Had not heard this combination for some time...

Natural, that's all I can say. Seamless... The sweetness of the notes, especially the treble and base extension.

Headphones are the SASH Trés.


----------



## triod750

Oh.........the horror...!!


----------



## Thaddy

That looks like the custom Odyssey with dual rectifiers!  Mine is based off of that design, but will have some differences.  Are you the new owner?  How do you like it?


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> Natural, that's all I can say. Seamless... The sweetness of the notes, especially the treble and base extension.



Well expressed Audiargent. Odyssey's treble is very well extended and is incredibly sweet. Bass is so satisfying and I'm hearing all this on Susvara. With time more will get to hear Odyssey and it will cement it's place in the audio head-fi world.


----------



## audiargent (Sep 7, 2022)

Thaddy said:


> That looks like the custom Odyssey with dual rectifiers!  Mine is based off of that design, but will have some differences.  Are you the new owner?  How do you like it?


I am the first and only owner  Unless another dual rectifier Odyssey has been produced.

How will yours vary? Read something about source followers?

Enjoying Lucio Battisti on the HE-6SE right now  Qobuz have a good selection in 192k FLAC.

I have some Linlai 274B-Ds and Hifi 6SL7s on the way, hopefully they won't disappoint.


----------



## Thaddy

audiargent said:


> I am the first and only owner  Unless another dual rectifier Odyssey has been produced.
> 
> How will yours vary? Read something about source followers?
> 
> ...


Congrats, I saw the pictures on the website but haven't noticed it in this thread.  Mine will have single 5U4G rectification and some cosmetic changes, but the design will be very similar.  I think yours actually has some nice custom Sowter output transformers?  Do you have any NOS tubes for the Odyssey?  Those are a must for such a nice amplifier.


----------



## audiargent (Sep 8, 2022)

Thaddy said:


> Congrats, I saw the pictures on the website but haven't noticed it in this thread.  Mine will have single 5U4G rectification and some cosmetic changes, but the design will be very similar.  I think yours actually has some nice custom Sowter output transformers?  Do you have any NOS tubes for the Odyssey?  Those are a must for such a nice amplifier.


You are right about the Sowter, and a Hammond mains.

This one has an impedance switch, which comes valuable for the HE-6SE. Eventually it will be accompanied by a Susvara. The HEDDphone also performs admirably well, better than the HE6-SE from the technical point of view.

It does things to the HE-6SE, especially in the bass regions that I would have never thought possible. Those are some excellent cans, but need good power to drive them. With the impedance switch Odyssey outputs around 9.6w into 50 ohms.

It also has an attenuator, to allow more volume travel for more sensitive headphones. There is noticeable hum however at 96 dB/mW onwards - I was aware of this when Tomas was designing the amplifier. It is perfect with low sensitivity cans.


No, no NOS.

I am against the principle of buying something, loving it and not being able to replace it once it burns out.

I am also against hoarding for the sake of it.

So, only new production tubes. I will eventually replace it with some good ones (KR-KT150, EML/KR 5U4G, the Linlai E-6SL7 or 6SN7) newer production tubes.

These KT170s are quite pleasing, even though due to the current situation they increased by a third in price.... They are run conservatively however, so should last long.

I will update you on the tear-drop shaped 274Bs that I just bought, once they arrive and I have time to test them.


----------



## Isaacc7

audiargent said:


> You are right about the Sowter, and a Hammond mains.
> 
> This one has an impedance switch, which comes valuable for the HE-6SE. Eventually it will be accompanied by a Susvara. The HEDDphone also performs admirably well, better than the HE6-SE from the technical point of view.
> 
> ...


‘Tis better to have loved and lost…


----------



## Thaddy

Isaacc7 said:


> ‘Tis better to have loved and lost…


Yeah, @audiargent you really need to give NOS tubes a shot!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> You are right about the Sowter, and a Hammond mains.
> 
> This one has an impedance switch, which comes valuable for the HE-6SE. Eventually it will be accompanied by a Susvara. The HEDDphone also performs admirably well, better than the HE6-SE from the technical point of view.
> 
> ...



As long as you're happy. As an Ultrasonic Studio custom amp owner, you have an amp build to your requirements.


----------



## alvin sawdust (Sep 9, 2022)

Firstly I am not a review writer and considering my post count and when I joined Head-Fi, it's obvious I like to read more than talk. The Telemachus though has been a revelation and has inspired me to put pen to paper.
My sound preference is simple, put the headphones on and be transported into a room of engaging music.

Straight off the bat I would like to say that the Telemachus sounds as big and bold as it looks. Over the past few weeks I have had the amp cooking with music flowing through it, only while I have been at home of course and at some point towards the end of last week the Tele suddenly opened up and blossomed.
I have had a few fairly decent amps including Apex Teton, Tron Antares Signature (ss), Ayon HA-3 and Allnic HPA-5000. I could have quite happily lived with the HA-3, but after taking delivery of my Final D8000 pro I had a hunch that the Finals would benefit from more juicy watts, even though they are an easy load.
 The Allnic proved my to be correct with it's output of 5w into loads of 30 - 60 ohms allowing the D8k pro to spread it's wings and give me a glimps of true high end.

Enter Tomas' creation and I am transported into a whole new world of fine detail, 3d soundstaging, layering, crazy dynamics along with tonal accuracy and intimacy when called upon. At first I was a little overwhelmed with the sound coming at me from seemingly nowhere and everywhere at the same time. It's a grand introduction for me into the world of 300b but part of the 'you are there' is down to how fast the amp is and as previously mentioned the dynamics are startling.
I like to listen to electronic music, along with many other genres, and an example is ISAM album by Amon Tobin where if your rig isn't up to the job it can sound a noisy mess. The Tele creates a huge space for every sound to form and melt away or hit you and disappear as quickly and all without a hint of sibilance and the lows at certain points can scare the sh*# out of me!

All I can tell you is the Telemachus is the best amp I have ever heard and it allows the rest of my system to shine through. I am sure you can conclude I am in love with this beautiful beast and I can't see it not being with me for the rest of my headphone journey. Heaven only knows how much better it is going to sound with premium tubes.

Amp spec: Dual ss/tube rectification option, so far I prefer the tube setting. Attenuation is through a Khozmo stepper. Current tube compliment is EH 300b, Mullard 5U4G and RCA 6F8G.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

Just heard Telemachus today and my impression is... Need time to process what I just heard lol.

Have heard several 300B amps for headphone and speaker, none of them deliver the "sensation" of Telemachus. This amp is pretty lively and produce solid impact/bite, clear detail, organic and transparent vocality, with big hall alike soundstage. (Using solid state rectification)


----------



## K3cT

415 pages and no comparisons against the American big boys like DNA and Eddie Current? 🥺


----------



## senseitedj

TheMiddleSky said:


> Just heard Telemachus today and my impression is... Need time to process what I just heard lol.
> 
> Have heard several 300B amps for headphone and speaker, none of them deliver the "sensation" of Telemachus. This amp is pretty lively and produce solid impact/bite, clear detail, organic and transparent vocality, with big hall alike soundstage. (Using solid state rectification)



You forgot to mention as well, that you have all this performance while using a rather standard pair of PS Vane 300B tubes and RCA 6sn7, as well as being fed from a topping D90 DAC if I am correct?


----------



## TheMiddleSky

senseitedj said:


> You forgot to mention as well, that you have all this performance while using a rather standard pair of PS Vane 300B tubes and RCA 6sn7, as well as being fed from a topping D90 DAC if I am correct?



Correct bro and where are you tomorrow, we have siblings war between Telemachus and Oblivion.

Will take Chord TT2 and DCS Bartok if the table is big enough haha.


----------



## senseitedj

TheMiddleSky said:


> Correct bro and where are you tomorrow, we have siblings war between Telemachus and Oblivion.
> 
> Will take Chord TT2 and DCS Bartok if the table is big enough haha.



I'll be there soon to see that shoot out.

Would be interesting how the amps scales with different DACs


----------



## OctavianH

alvin sawdust said:


> I like to listen to electronic music, along with many other genres, and an example is ISAM album by Amon Tobin where if your rig isn't up to the job it can sound a noisy mess. The Tele creates a huge space for every sound to form and melt away or hit you and disappear as quickly and all without a hint of sibilance and the lows at certain points can scare the sh*# out of me!


This was also my impression when first hearing Eternity. It was WIDE and BIG. At first I was confused not being fully convinced about what I was hearing. It was also much more towards neutral side than my previous amplifier and I needed a few months to understand how to use it and in which combination of tubes. But since then, well... I never searched for other amplifier.


----------



## alvin sawdust

OctavianH said:


> This was also my impression when first hearing Eternity. It was WIDE and BIG. At first I was confused not being fully convinced about what I was hearing. It was also much more towards neutral side than my previous amplifier and I needed a few months to understand how to use it and in which combination of tubes. But since then, well... I never searched for other amplifier.


Tomas is a clever boy, no doubt about it


----------



## OctavianH

alvin sawdust said:


> Tomas is a clever boy, no doubt about it


This is the sound of UltraSonic. WIDE and BIG. It is not created via tubes, but within circuitry. Tubes and model are just a flavour over the overall signature. This is how I see it. All his "modern" models have something in common. And I have a feeling also Odyssey is not far, even if it is a traditional design.


----------



## baronbeehive

alvin sawdust said:


> Firstly I am not a review writer and considering my post count and when I joined Head-Fi, it's obvious I like to read more than talk. The Telemachus though has been a revelation and has inspired me to put pen to paper.
> My sound preference is simple, put the headphones on and be transported into a room of engaging music.
> 
> Straight off the bat I would like to say that the Telemachus sounds as big and bold as it looks. Over the past few weeks I have had the amp cooking with music flowing through it, only while I have been at home of course and at some point towards the end of last week the Tele suddenly opened up and blossomed.
> ...


Excellent impressions, and the other Tele owners are beginning to emerge at last! It's only early days for the Tele on the thread but it looks so far out in the stratosphere already, (as I would expect). That combination of 300B *and* the new technology... WOW.


----------



## OctavianH

I think a very nice comparison would be between Telemachus and Envy, but I doubt we will get this soon.


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 9, 2022)

K3cT said:


> 415 pages and no comparisons against the American big boys like DNA and Eddie Current? 🥺


I quote Maxx134 on the opening page of the review: _"So my review instead deals with music selection as a secondary and non-issue.
Only amp qualities are compared, TO OTHER REFERENCE END GAME AMPS(!).... "I have been testing/modding-upgrading/listening to other expensive amps in $4k range.
Namely, an upgraded Eddie Current Aficionado (EML mesh plates & cap upgrades), ...". _


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> Firstly I am not a review writer and considering my post count and when I joined Head-Fi, it's obvious I like to read more than talk. The Telemachus though has been a revelation and has inspired me to put pen to paper.
> My sound preference is simple, put the headphones on and be transported into a room of engaging music.
> 
> Straight off the bat I would like to say that the Telemachus sounds as big and bold as it looks. Over the past few weeks I have had the amp cooking with music flowing through it, only while I have been at home of course and at some point towards the end of last week the Tele suddenly opened up and blossomed.
> ...



Thanks Alvin for the impressions of Telemachus. Finally a review of substance. 

After reading through this, I'm looking forward to Telemachus more now.  Although with Odyssey and Oblivion here, I'm not exactly deprive of great sounding amps.

Now if your Telemachus with Sowter OT sound that good, how would a Telemachus with Monolith Magnetics OT sound? Hope it's not less euphonic.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> Just heard Telemachus today and my impression is... Need time to process what I just heard lol.
> 
> Have heard several 300B amps for headphone and speaker, none of them deliver the "sensation" of Telemachus. This amp is pretty lively and produce solid impact/bite, clear detail, organic and transparent vocality, with big hall alike soundstage. (Using solid state rectification)



I'm liking your description of Telemachus. All the attributes are what I'm looking for. Destiny (300b amp) had some of these attributes but not the important ones that I cherish - impact, bite, clarity, fast transients. Hence it had to go. 



TheMiddleSky said:


> Correct bro and where are you tomorrow, we have siblings war between Telemachus and Oblivion.
> 
> Will take Chord TT2 and DCS Bartok if the table is big enough haha.



Looking forward to your fun session with those 2 amps. Imagine Oblivion, Odyssey and Telemachus in the same room. 



OctavianH said:


> I think a very nice comparison would be between Telemachus and Envy, but I doubt we will get this soon.



I'll await @TheMiddleSky feedback on Cayin 300b amp and Telemachus. Think he has spend some time with the former as well. When deciding on my final 300b amp, I could have gone with the Cayin or the Envy but I chose to go with Telemachus. Only because I had a taste of Odyssey and how good that is.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> You forgot to mention as well, that you have all this performance while using a rather standard pair of PS Vane 300B tubes and RCA 6sn7, as well as being fed from a topping D90 DAC if I am correct?



He must be your best friend. This is your amp but you let him listen first.


----------



## Isaacc7

audiargent said:


> You are right about the Sowter, and a Hammond mains.
> 
> This one has an impedance switch, which comes valuable for the HE-6SE. Eventually it will be accompanied by a Susvara. The HEDDphone also performs admirably well, better than the HE6-SE from the technical point of view.
> 
> ...


I think it should be said that NOS doesn't necessary mean expensive, unobtanium tubes. There are plenty of old tubes that sound lovely, are inexpensive, and are in plentiful supply. I am a huge fan of 807 and 6bg6 output tubes and the 7N7 and 7F7 input tubes. I am currently listening to an input tube and a pair of outputs from the 60s and cost me maybe $60 for all three. I also feel the need to point out that current production tubes won't necessarily still be around when you need replacements. The invasion of Ukraine and the temporary unavailability of Russian tubes showed me I shouldn't take current production for granted. There were plenty of Audio Research owners that suddenly had to worry about being able to retube their amps when the only only supplier wasn't available. The Chinese manufacturers have also been in flux, how much do you want to rely on them long term? No, I say have replacements on hand while you can buy them. That isn't hoarding, that's just being prudent.


----------



## UntilThen (Sep 9, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> I think it should be said that NOS doesn't necessary mean expensive, unobtanium tubes. There are plenty of old tubes that sound lovely, are inexpensive, and are in plentiful supply. I am a huge fan of 807 and 6bg6 output tubes and the 7N7 and 7F7 input tubes. I am currently listening to an input tube and a pair of outputs from the 60s and cost me maybe $60 for all three. I also feel the need to point out that current production tubes won't necessarily still be around when you need replacements. The invasion of Ukraine and the temporary unavailability of Russian tubes showed me I shouldn't take current production for granted. There were plenty of Audio Research owners that suddenly had to worry about being able to retube their amps when the only only supplier wasn't available. The Chinese manufacturers have also been in flux, how much do you want to rely on them long term? No, I say have replacements on hand while you can buy them. That isn't hoarding, that's just being prudent.



Isaac I'm in agreement with you 100%.    and I ain't hoarding, just being very prudent because Odyssey will last a very long time.

Sylvania 6SL7gt vt-229, Sittard 5AR4 and Tung Sol 6550. So many nice tubes. A year on and I'm still enjoying the tube rolling experience. My setup has gone back to racks.
These racks. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sho...e-no-old-pictures-please.529140/post-17136164


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## senseitedj (Sep 10, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> He must be your best friend. This is your amp but you let him listen first.



Yeah still out of town but the amp has arrived before me, wont be back until a couple of weeks, so thought he might as well enjoy it and compare it with other amps so everyone can get impressions of the Tele


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## VanHai

K3cT said:


> 415 pages and no comparisons against the American big boys like DNA and Eddie Current? 🥺


I have the low profile Oblivion and DNA Sonett 2, not TOTL DNA.


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## senseitedj

VanHai said:


> I have the low profile Oblivion and DNA Sonett 2, not TOTL DNA.



So, how does the DNA stack against the oblivion?

Your tube amp collection and listening room looks spot on


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## VanHai (Sep 10, 2022)

senseitedj said:


> So, how does the DNA stack against the oblivion?
> 
> Your tube amp collection and listening room looks spot on


Thank you, they are 2 of my favorite amps because of the costs of tubes rolling. Basically they are set and forget, i use Mullard GZ34 and a pair of Electro Harmonix 6H30Pi for Sonett 2, a quad Soviet 6S19P and Mullard 12AX7 for Oblivion.

Sonic wise, they are very similar, very musical. I can not go into detail because i am not good at it. Vocally, Sonett 2 is the best of all the amps that i have, it seems like Donald puts some kind of magic dust inside the amp and makes it sounds very sweet, soft, warm, intimate and organic .It likes the singer only sings for you.

First thing i noticed that the Oblivion has a wider soundstage than many amps and the weakest link is the base. After rolling about 6 or 7 tubes, i found the Mullard 12AX7 brought the best base out of the Oblivion. It excels in power and can delivery in both dynamic and planar headphones, especially for high impedance planar headphones that Sonett 2 can not drive.


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## TheMiddleSky (Sep 10, 2022)

From today's mini meet (there are 4 of us there).

DAC from TT2, and some headphones are Meze Elite, ZMF Atrium Stabilize, Diana TC, Focal Utopia, HD800S and Hifiman Susvara. The amplifiers are Telemachus and Oblivion (6AV6 version).





A little background story, Oblivon is the mighty amp that make some of us here selling our good solid state amps (namely Formula S/Powerman, Ferrum Oor/Hypsos, and Burson Grand Tourer). Oblivion simply sound so dense, full of authority, solid impact/bite, with "larger than life" soundstage image when compared to SS amps above.

Telemachus vs Oblivion:
At first we use rather medium-slow songs from Jazz to Country. Telemachus is a very clean amp, transparent, better in clarity and detail than Oblivion. Vocal is a bit more laidback in Telemachus, but with greater micro detail and more lifelike presentation. Bass punch has more heft, body and impact solidness with Oblivion, Telemachus still has good body, only a little less than Oblivion.

I can feel Oblivion hold a slight of Chord TT2's capability to render the last detail available, however, Telemachus able to do this perfectly, and in fact, render a cleaner feel than TT2 alone.

What surprising us the most: Telemachus able to make Oblivion feels like a smaller amp in term of imaging. Yes, both amp really great in width presentation, but when we talk about height and depth, there is simply no comparison here. Telemachus stretch to all direction greatly that make Oblivion "narrow and closed in" in direct comparison. All air and space between instrument now feel more spacious, more isolated for each notes, even in complex passage.

We thought Oblivion is completely done for, until we start to play dynamic songs from Safri Duo (Samb Adagio), good songs to test impact, bite, deep sub bass, speed and soundstage. Here we go, Oblivion go "full strength", deliver very solid percussion's impact through all spectrum (High, Mid, Bass). Each notes has precise decay, and more attack overall. Telemachus felt like a softer, more relax in presentation, not able to reach the same energy Oblivion have, but still deliver the huge soundstage image that better than Oblivion.

Most of headphones pairing better with Telemachus (included Susvara), only with Meze Elite we confuse to decide which amp is better pairing. HD800S' owner also decide that oblivion is better pairing due to bigger bass impact.

Cayin HA-300II? Well, we tested a little at first to direct compare to Telemachus. Cayin felt like a small amp in imaging when compared to Oblivion, less attack and detail than Telemachus, with more noise in background when paired with very sensitive headphone (tested with Audeze MM-500 that have 18 ohm/100dB). So we thought that focus on Telemachus vs Oblivion would be better match.

Conclusion: Oblivion remain my reference amps in high end realm. Come with "crazy value" for the price, unique character that may blend tube sensation and solid state experience, this amp is really tough to beat. So far only 2 amps ever passed Oblivion, and both amps significantly have more expensive price tag: Ultrasonic Telemachus and Riviera AIC-10.


----------



## alvin sawdust

Sounds like the Oblivion is a fantastic value! Thanks for the comparisons.


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks @TheMiddleSky for the thorough review. After reading this, I will re-evaluate Odyssey vs Oblivion.   

You pointed out correctly Oblivion's tonal characteristics and wide soundstage. I was a bit surprise though that Oblivion has more body heft than Telemachus.

Here in my man cave, there's no doubt that Odyssey has more body heft and bass impact than Oblivion. I can see now the 3 amps having very distinct characteristics. There are 2 things common though. Clarity and fast transients.


----------



## alvin sawdust

@TheMiddleSky can I ask how many hours are on the Tele you are evaluating?

I found It to be a good sounding amp if a little pedestrian until around 75 to 100 hours.


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> @TheMiddleSky can I ask how many hours are on the Tele you are evaluating?
> 
> I found It to be a good sounding amp if a little pedestrian until around 75 to 100 hours.



Yeah it’s possible that with burn in, you will get tsunami bass. 😀


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> Sounds like the Oblivion is a fantastic value! Thanks for the comparisons.



It’s the reason why Oblivion remains with me. 😃


----------



## alvin sawdust

UntilThen said:


> Yeah it’s possible that with burn in, you will get tsunami bass. 😀


Also it was mentioned that the vocals are distant which doesn't tally with my experience, they are the most upfront and intimate I have ever heard on any amp.


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> Also it was mentioned that the vocals are distant which doesn't tally with my experience, they are the most upfront and intimate I have ever heard on any amp.



From my own experience, headphones and amps burn in or getting to a stabilise state, are a must for the best listening experience.

I noticed that most in Oblivion, Odyssey and Susvara because they are the latest addition in my audio journey. After 3 years, Oblivion sounded mature as compared to when it was 6 months old. I have several amps so it takes more time to burn them in.

Then there’s tubes burn in. 😀


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> A little background story, Oblivon is the mighty amp that make some of us here selling our good solid state amps (namely Formula S/Powerman, Ferrum Oor/Hypsos, and Burson Grand Tourer). Oblivion simply sound so dense, full of authority, solid impact/bite, with "larger than life" soundstage image when compared to SS amps above.



I read this with interest and amusement.  It's quite telling that you guys prefer Oblivion over Formula S/Powerman, Ferrum Oor/Hypsos and Burson Grand Tourer. These are pretty heavy weight solid state amps.

Well the morning exercise is over and I'm back home, rested, showered, ate and ready to have some time with Odyssey and Oblivion. To keep things simple, I'll just use Susvara and HD800 with the amps. 

I am pleasantly surprised that Oblivion is rather punchy, with a good body tone and quite impactful bass. It sound very spacious, airy but somehow I'm hearing a lot more tube tone than I had before. After testing out both headphones with it, I much prefer HD800 with Oblivion. Soundstage is wide and spacious and it's captivating. I remember the He1000se and LCD4 pairing very well with it before I sold them off.

Then I turn to Odyssey and the tone is a killer ! Here I prefer Susvara with Odyssey. Tonally it's more dense but it is also very clear, especially with a honey sweet treble that titillates the senses. Texture is more saturated and the bass has weight ! One astonishing thing I find is that Odyssey's clarity and details are just revealing as Oblivion. In fact Odyssey presents dynamics better than Oblivion. 

With soundstage though, Oblivion is the clear winner. Odyssey is more in your face and on it's own, I would consider the soundstage width as more than adequate but Oblivion just stretches out the soundstage.

There's a similarity in tone between the 2 amps and within 2 hours, I find myself just enjoying both amps with their respective headphones. I am very happy with these amps. They are the best I've experienced so far and I don't think they will be bettered for a long time.

So bring on Telemachus next April. I want to know first hand what that sound like.


----------



## K3cT

alvin sawdust said:


> Also it was mentioned that the vocals are distant which doesn't tally with my experience, they are the most upfront and intimate I have ever heard on any amp.



I was with @TheMiddleSky and can confirm that vocal is definitely presented a couple rows back compared to Oblivion. There is a better sense of air but the Oblivion has more "rawness" in the midrange. Tubes used in the Tele can play an effect too for sure.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

alvin sawdust said:


> @TheMiddleSky can I ask how many hours are on the Tele you are evaluating?
> 
> I found It to be a good sounding amp if a little pedestrian until around 75 to 100 hours.



Only 8 hours burn in, so definitely not much



alvin sawdust said:


> Also it was mentioned that the vocals are distant which doesn't tally with my experience, they are the most upfront and intimate I have ever heard on any amp.


Nah, Tele definitely has great vocal position, not distant or recessed by any means, it's just that oblivion is more intimate. 

Being a SET Amp, different tube definitely lead to different result. Also, the one we tried was with solid state rectifier. Haven't touched the tube rectifier, I guess will bring more "warmth" to the sound with the right tube.  



UntilThen said:


> I read this with interest and amusement.  It's quite telling that you guys prefer Oblivion over Formula S/Powerman, Ferrum Oor/Hypsos and Burson Grand Tourer. These are pretty heavy weight solid state amps.
> 
> Well the morning exercise is over and I'm back home, rested, showered, ate and ready to have some time with Odyssey and Oblivion. To keep things simple, I'll just use Susvara and HD800 with the amps.
> 
> ...



Yeah, we are kind of surprise too with the result.

Anyway, thanks for the impression!


----------



## UntilThen

K3cT said:


> 415 pages and no comparisons against the American big boys like DNA and Eddie Current? 🥺



You know I was so close to owning a DNA Stratus. After waiting for 8 months I cancel the order because I step into the world of vintage amps, specifically Sansui. Otherwise I would have given you a first hand account of Oblivion / Odyssey vs Stratus.


----------



## senseitedj

Here is an interesting interview with cayin engineers about HA 300 mk2 amp. As you can observe even though the amp has more bells and whistles, it uses conventional components. 

Based on @TheMiddleSky  impressions I'm glad I went the extra mile and waited for the tele


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I read this with interest and amusement.  It's quite telling that you guys prefer Oblivion over Formula S/Powerman, Ferrum Oor/Hypsos and Burson Grand Tourer. These are pretty heavy weight solid state amps.
> 
> Well the morning exercise is over and I'm back home, rested, showered, ate and ready to have some time with Odyssey and Oblivion. To keep things simple, I'll just use Susvara and HD800 with the amps.
> 
> ...


Thanks to you and TheMiddleSky I'm really forming accurate impressions of the amps here. Good to see some interesting comparisons 👍👍.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Thanks to you and TheMiddleSky I'm really forming accurate impressions of the amps here. Good to see some interesting comparisons 👍👍.



My pleasure. A chance meeting with Tomas led me to Oblivion. It's hard to imagine that I will end up with 3 Ultrasonic amps but these are exceptional sounding amps. Furthermore they have a very low noise floor. Hum and noise are non existent in my amps. Build quality is high. Odyssey's volume knob is very smooth.  

Oblivion is coming up to 3 years in Dec and Odyssey has just pass one year. They have been performing flawlessly in that time.


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## alvin sawdust

You may find there is hum on the Tele, nothing too distracting though.


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> You may find there is hum on the Tele, nothing too distracting though.



Probably won't hear it on Susvara as it is very insensitive. Final D8000 Pro is 98dB and 60 ohms.


----------



## alvin sawdust

UntilThen said:


> Probably won't hear it on Susvara as it is very insensitive. Final D8000 Pro is 98dB and 60 ohms.


If that's the only headphone you are going to use then that may be the case, but for the majority of cans there will be some hum.


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> If that's the only headphone you are going to use then that may be the case, but for the majority of cans there will be some hum.



What other headphones did you try that have hum on Telemachus? Is this manifested only with no music playing? On a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being the lowest), how would you rate the hum level?

On Odyssey, only the very sensitive He1000se has some very low noise been detected - almost non existent - I rate it as 1. LCD4, He6se v2, HD800, HD650 are just super quiet on Odyssey. Susvara naturally quiet. Odyssey impress me because for such a powerful amp, it is very quiet and this is using tube rectification.

Oblivion on the other hand though is just quiet with any headphones I've tried.


----------



## alvin sawdust

UntilThen said:


> What other headphones did you try that have hum on Telemachus? Is this manifested only with no music playing? On a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being the lowest), how would you rate the hum level?
> 
> On Odyssey, only the very sensitive He1000se has some very low noise been detected - almost non existent - I rate it as 1. LCD4, He6se v2, HD800, HD650 are just super quiet on Odyssey. Susvara naturally quiet. Odyssey impress me because for such a powerful amp, it is very quiet and this is using tube rectification.
> 
> Oblivion on the other hand though is just quiet with any headphones I've tried.


Hum with no music playing, certain 6sn7 and variants I have tried can exacerbate it slightly. I don't have a huge collection of headphones but it is there with Senn HD580 and a couple of Grado cans.
The Tele that sold in the classifieds recently which I believe @Velozity bought, the seller mentioned the hum and stated only his HE-6 was quiet, he listed cans that weren't.
I personally have no issue with it at all, the Allnic hums but that also is a fantastic sounding amp.
On a scale of 1 to 10 I would say 2.


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> Hum with no music playing, certain 6sn7 and variants I have tried can exacerbate it slightly. I don't have a huge collection of headphones but it is there with Senn HD580 and a couple of Grado cans.
> The Tele that sold in the classifieds recently which I believe @Velozity bought, the seller mentioned the hum and stated only his HE-6 was quiet, he listed cans that weren't.
> I personally have no issue with it at all, the Allnic hums but that also is a fantastic sounding amp.
> On a scale of 1 to 10 I would say 2.



Now I'm getting a better idea. Grados are very sensitive headphones. My Grado GH1 certainly hums on Odyssey - would rate it as 2 or 3. I must be crazy to drive GH1 with Odyssey but it sounded so good.  

A quick check with Tomas and he told me that Telemachus is quieter than Odyssey, so I know what I am expecting.

I had a previous 300b amp - Destiny. That drives me crazy with a hum level of 3 or 4 with He1000se.

Odyssey is a very quiet amp and my 2 friends who has heard it, agree. I'm also very brutal in keeping only very well behaving, quiet tubes. I've this OCD in me that won't tolerate a noisy amp.


----------



## alvin sawdust

UntilThen said:


> Now I'm getting a better idea. Grados are very sensitive headphones. My Grado GH1 certainly hums on Odyssey - would rate it as 2 or 3. I must be crazy to drive GH1 with Odyssey but it sounded so good.
> 
> A quick check with Tomas and he told me that Telemachus is quieter than Odyssey, so I know what I am expecting.
> 
> ...


Once the music plays, it's all forgotten   As we speak I am using RCA 6F8G and the left one has gone a little noisy.


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> Once the music plays, it's all forgotten   As we speak I am using RCA 6F8G and the left one has gone a little noisy.



I still have a pair of Tung Sol 6F8G bgrp branded Art. Was Stavros who pointed that out to me to buy it. It was brand new when I bought it. In the picture below, only the 6F8G and 6BX7s and adapters are left. I've sold off both GEC U52 and the Wa22. Yup finally sold off the Wa22 because it's just sitting on the floor in the spare room.

Now all I have is a picture to remind me of my time with Wa22.


----------



## UntilThen

There will be a change to my Telemachus. It will have fixed bias, adjustable via trim pots for the 300b tubes. A change that Tomas told me he will introduce for his Telemachus.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> There will be a change to my Telemachus. It will have fixed bias, adjustable via trim pots for the 300b tubes. A change that Tomas told me he will introduce for his Telemachus.


And the reason why you are going for fixed bias? 

Eager to hear!


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## senseitedj (Sep 11, 2022)

alvin sawdust said:


> Hum with no music playing, certain 6sn7 and variants I have tried can exacerbate it slightly. I don't have a huge collection of headphones but it is there with Senn HD580 and a couple of Grado cans.
> The Tele that sold in the classifieds recently which I believe @Velozity bought, the seller mentioned the hum and stated only his HE-6 was quiet, he listed cans that weren't.
> I personally have no issue with it at all, the Allnic hums but that also is a fantastic sounding amp.
> On a scale of 1 to 10 I would say 2.



Hence I've opted for the impedance switch option for my more sensitive cans. Hopefully it will not have significant hum on the lowest setting.

I have specified my tele to work with the 15 ohm, 98db/mW Audeze lcd 4z


----------



## Isaacc7

senseitedj said:


> Hence I've opted for the impedance switch option for my more sensitive cans. Hopefully it will not have significant hum on the lowest setting.
> 
> I have specified my tele to work with the 15 ohm, 98db/mW Audeze lcd 4z


Does the Tele use AC or DC heaters on the 300b? Purists swear that AC is the only way to go but DC avoids a lot of noise problems and obviates the need for noise pots and the like. George, aka tubelab, over on DIYaudio has found distortions caused by AC heaters on 300b amps. Can't remember if it was harmonic or IM, but he said that going DC made things considerably cleaner.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> And the reason why you are going for fixed bias?
> 
> Eager to hear!



Wasn't my choice. I follow the master builder.  He knows best. I know nothing.  

So I hope Tomas doesn't mind but quoting him :-

Fixed bias (the grid drivers will bias the 300B's) instead of cathode bias. There'll be two small trimmers on top that you adjust with a screwdriver to set the plate current you want while watching mA meters. Very little adjustments are ever going to be needed here as we only use one tube type but it's nice to have both sides balanced.


----------



## senseitedj

Isaacc7 said:


> Does the Tele use AC or DC heaters on the 300b? Purists swear that AC is the only way to go but DC avoids a lot of noise problems and obviates the need for noise pots and the like. George, aka tubelab, over on DIYaudio has found distortions caused by AC heaters on 300b amps. Can't remember if it was harmonic or IM, but he said that going DC made things considerably cleaner.


Why not ask the man himself? @SonicTrance


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Does the Tele use AC or DC heaters on the 300b? Purists swear that AC is the only way to go but DC avoids a lot of noise problems and obviates the need for noise pots and the like. George, aka tubelab, over on DIYaudio has found distortions caused by AC heaters on 300b amps. Can't remember if it was harmonic or IM, but he said that going DC made things considerably cleaner.



From the Ultrasonic Studio web page...

The 300B filaments have regulated 5VDC power supplies for lowest noise.


----------



## UntilThen

Now for an hour of music before I hit the road with my Nike. Morning is the best time to listen to music. The mind's awake and the ears are fresh from a good night's sleep. The setup sound so sparkly this morning. It's like some fairy dust has settle on it.


----------



## Velozity

alvin sawdust said:


> Once the music plays, it's all forgotten




This is so true.  The only time I ever think about noise is when reading posts from people who ask about it.  Telemachus is an experience, period.  Congrats to the new owners and do yourselves a favor and put in some better tubes.  I highly recommend the euphonic holography of a full EML power complement and a GEC front end.  Midrange and bass texture to die for.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Now I'm getting a better idea. Grados are very sensitive headphones. My Grado GH1 certainly hums on Odyssey - would rate it as 2 or 3. I must be crazy to drive GH1 with Odyssey but it sounded so good.
> 
> A quick check with Tomas and he told me that Telemachus is quieter than Odyssey, so I know what I am expecting.
> 
> ...


*** Tubes were meant to be seen and not heard…👨‍👩‍👧‍👦…?🤔🤣


----------



## UntilThen

Velozity said:


> This is so true.  The only time I ever think about noise is when reading posts from people who ask about it.  Telemachus is an experience, period.  Congrats to the new owners and do yourselves a favor and put in some better tubes.  I highly recommend the euphonic holography of a full EML power complement and a GEC front end.  Midrange and bass texture to die for.



By the time I get to Telemachus, there ain't anymore money left for tubes. So I will just throw in these golf balls.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> By the time I get to Telemachus, there ain't anymore money left for tubes. So I will just throw in these golf balls.


…with those bases, you play from the white tees?…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> …with those bases, you play from the white tees?…



White middle tees are good enough.


----------



## UntilThen

Velozity said:


> Telemachus is an experience, period.



Holy smoke, I'm already in trance with Odyssey at the moment. Anymore might tip the scale.


----------



## audiargent

senseitedj said:


> Hence I've opted for the impedance switch option for my more sensitive cans. Hopefully it will not have significant hum on the lowest setting.
> 
> I have specified my tele to work with the 15 ohm, 98db/mW Audeze lcd 4z


It indeed does reduce the hum.

As I said, for my use scenario - HE-6SE - barley any hum noticeable, even on the 32 ohm winding.

At 87 dB/mW (HEDDphone) and 94 db/mW (SASH Trés) the hum is very much reduced on the 8 ohm winding.

At 96 dB/mW (Monolith M1570) this becomes significant but 'disappears' into the music at normal listening levels.

Hum may be more in UL rather than TR modes, and it is possible the driver tubes effect it, though I have not swapped them for a long time.

Overall it depends on your use scenario. I wanted a tube amp to drive the HE-6SE (hopefully Susvara in the future). In this it satisfies me completely. I would not change a thing.

If you want to drive mainly sensitive headphones, this may not be the ideal amp. But why would one want 15 W on tap to drive a 100 dB/mW headphone?


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> But why would one want 15 W on tap to drive a 100 dB/mW headphone?



Precisely. Susvara, He6se, LCD4, HD800 are all quiet with Odyssey.


----------



## senseitedj (Sep 12, 2022)

audiargent said:


> It indeed does reduce the hum.
> 
> As I said, for my use scenario - HE-6SE - barley any hum noticeable, even on the 32 ohm winding.
> 
> ...



I've got a few other cans as well, HEDDphone 87db/mw and Beyer T1 600 ohm. The HEDDphone i've really been struggling with current kit that I own. Still had clipping issues with my 2W WA6-SE. 3W Burson is just enough but can be quiet at times with some tracks, and SS sound is not my favorite.

This is actually was my primary motivation to get the Telly. Also for future insensitive HPs

But I'm hoping it can work with other HPs which have low sensitivity as well. The 4z is dead-silent on all SET tube amps i've tried so far.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> But I'm hoping it can work with other HPs which have low sensitivity as well. The 4z is dead-silent on all SET tube amps i've tried so far.



You should have a listen of the LCD4z with Oblivion. Susvara sounds great with Oblivion.


----------



## OctavianH

Reading the latest pages of this thread makes me think I was lucky. My Eternity is dead silent with all the headphones I have tried it with. And the ones that come to my mind are: Kennerton Thekk, DCA Ether 2, Final D8000 / D8000 Pro, ZMF Verite Open, Audio-Technica AWAS / ATH-ADX5000, Beyerdynamic T1.2. So all kinds of impedances and sensitivities. What to say, I only heard a small hum using a specific combo of tubes with a specific pair of adapters, but the same tubes worked fine in other combinations, therefore I do not consider it a valid case anymore. I have the impedance switch, I barely use it because I preferred low impedance position for all mentioned except T1.2 which is a corner case because of its 600 Ohm impedance. The rest work fine on low position and I rarely need more than 50% of the volume knob for listening (decent levels, 75dB or something, measured not too scientifically, I have an app on my phone so ... take it with a grain of salt).

PS. for curious people, the tube combination was: GEC E3375 (with polish "red base" adapters) and Brimar CV133 (with Deyan's adapters). This is the only case when I hear something with volume = 0 and this is an 1 on a 1/10 scale, when music starts I cannot hear anything). But since each pair with the same adapters works fine on other combinations I do not blame adapters or the tubes themselves. As I said, "corner case". Happens with any equipment. Other CV133 worked fine with same outputs.


----------



## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> Reading the latest pages of this thread makes me think I was lucky. My Eternity is dead silent with all the headphones I have tried it with. And the ones that come to my mind are: Kennerton Thekk, DCA Ether 2, Final D8000 / D8000 Pro, ZMF Verite Open, Audio-Technica AWAS / ATH-ADX5000, Beyerdynamic T1.2. So all kinds of impedances and sensitivities. What to say, I only heard a small hum using a specific combo of tubes with a specific pair of adapters, but the same tubes worked fine in other combinations, therefore I do not consider it a valid case anymore. I have the impedance switch, I barely use it because I preferred low impedance position for all mentioned except T1.2 which is a corner case because of its 600 Ohm impedance. The rest work fine on low position and I rarely need more than 50% of the volume knob for listening (decent levels, 75dB or something, measured not too scientifically, I have an app on my phone so ... take it with a grain of salt).
> 
> PS. for curious people, the tube combination was: GEC E3375 (with polish "red base" adapters) and Brimar CV133 (with Deyan's adapters). This is the only case when I hear something with volume = 0 and this is an 1 on a 1/10 scale, when music starts I cannot hear anything). But since each pair with the same adapters works fine on other combinations I do not blame adapters or the tubes themselves. As I said, "corner case". Happens with any equipment. Other CV133 worked fine with same outputs.


All my "modern" amps are dead quiet except for maybe some tube related noises. So, Oblivion, Citadel, Eternity and Infinity are all silent. It's the more powerful, old school, designs like Odyssey and Telemachus that has some background hum with sensitive headphones.



audiargent said:


> And the reason why you are going for fixed bias?
> 
> Eager to hear!


In November I'll build a Telemachus for myself. With that amp I'm trying something new and have redesigned the schematics so that the grid drivers are biasing the 300B grid. I'm also trying Monolith output transformers. I figured I'd try these changes on my own amp first so that I can make assessment if they're worth it or not. Always trying to improve!



Isaacc7 said:


> Does the Tele use AC or DC heaters on the 300b? Purists swear that AC is the only way to go but DC avoids a lot of noise problems and obviates the need for noise pots and the like. George, aka tubelab, over on DIYaudio has found distortions caused by AC heaters on 300b amps. Can't remember if it was harmonic or IM, but he said that going DC made things considerably cleaner.


The filaments have regulated 5VDC on them.


----------



## audiargent

Great to hear @SonicTrance !  Keep us updated.


----------



## alvin sawdust (Sep 12, 2022)

Velozity said:


> This is so true.  The only time I ever think about noise is when reading posts from people who ask about it.  Telemachus is an experience, period.  Congrats to the new owners and do yourselves a favor and put in some better tubes.  I highly recommend the euphonic holography of a full EML power complement and a GEC front end.  Midrange and bass texture to die for.


Regarding the GEC are you referring to the tall bottle L63 or the coke bottle smoke glass 6J5 type?


----------



## Velozity

alvin sawdust said:


> Regarding the GEC are you referring to the tall bottle L63 or the coke bottle smoke glass 6J5 type?



The coke bottle L63.  Doesn't have to be smoke glass.  But I do find the ones with the spiked circular top mica (without the thin wire supports) to sound best.  Like these:


----------



## UntilThen

Velozity said:


> The coke bottle L63.  Doesn't have to be smoke glass.  But I do find the ones with the spiked circular top mica (without the thin wire supports) to sound best.  Like these:



Lovely tubes. Telemachus looks classy in that picture.


----------



## UntilThen

Billie Jean playing now from the Thriller album. I love using headphone with vinyl. Sound electric.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Billie Jean playing now from the Thriller album. I love using headphone with vinyl. Sound electric.


How does ‘the funk of 40,000 years’ smell sound? 🤔


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> How does ‘the funk of 40,000 years’ smell sound? 🤔



Priceless 😀


----------



## alvin sawdust

Velozity said:


> The coke bottle L63.  Doesn't have to be smoke glass.  But I do find the ones with the spiked circular top mica (without the thin wire supports) to sound best.  Like these:


I have a pair of the smoked glass GEC, need another pair, but have mixed them with a pair of Ken Rad for the time being. Not the most impactful sounding but ethereal mids and sweet highs, very nice.


----------



## alvin sawdust

GEC 6J5G mixing it up with NU 6J5. Scratch what I previously said about not as impactful. A change of rectifier to Mullard GZ34 sorted that issue. Sounds like my beloved Mullard 5U4G is on it's last legs.


----------



## gibosi

alvin sawdust said:


> GEC 6J5G mixing it up with NU 6J5. Scratch what I previously said about not as impactful. A change of rectifier to Mullard GZ34 sorted that issue. Sounds like my beloved Mullard 5U4G is on it's last legs.



Philips acquired British Tungsram in 1952 and handed the reigns to Mullard. And therefore, many Mullard-labeled 5U4G are actually British Tungsram 5U4G. I don't know which one you have but to my ears, British Tungsram is not at all impactful but rather delicate.


----------



## alvin sawdust

gibosi said:


> Philips acquired British Tungsram in 1952 and handed the reigns to Mullard. And therefore, many Mullard-labeled 5U4G are actually British Tungsram 5U4G. I don't know which one you have but to my ears, British Tungsram is not at all impactful but rather delicate.


Good information, thanks Gibosi. Absolutely agree about the delicacy but it is sounding weaker, have had it for years now, can't complain.


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> A change of rectifier to Mullard GZ34 sorted that issue. Sounds like my beloved Mullard 5U4G is on it's last legs.



GZ34 is my favorite. Dynamic, lively and sparkly. Do get a newer one. I only use 5u4g for EL12 spez, 807, EL39 for the lower voltage drop. I don't use much of my Cossor 53ku and Mullard GZ32.


----------



## UntilThen

My fav GZ34:-

Philip Miniwatt GZ34 metal base
Sittard GZ34
Mullard GZ34 DD getter NOS 132/122 mA f33/L1J 1961 Bruxelles Mazda - bought this new and it's a sweet sounding GZ34 but all 3 are very good.


----------



## alvin sawdust

UntilThen said:


> GZ34 is my favorite. Dynamic, lively and sparkly. Do get a newer one. I only use 5u4g for EL12 spez, 807, EL39 for the lower voltage drop. I don't use much of my Cossor 53ku and Mullard GZ32.


Was enjoying the Mullard GZ34 at first but after a while could detect some hardness in the upper mids. It's the black base type and not a patch I believe on the metal base. Have popped in a RCA 5U4G and it sounds really very good. All RCA tubes I have used sound very balanced and musical, good value.


----------



## UntilThen

My wall of fame.  I use Odyssey for music and Oblivion for movies. They are an integral part of my life. Not sure how Telemachus will fit in.


----------



## audiargent (Sep 14, 2022)

Taken during yesterday's listening session. With my HE-6SE, in Triode Mode. JJ 6SN7s and KT66s doing the amplification. 5U4GBs as rectifiers. Volume knob at 10 o'clock.

DAC is a Schiit Gungnir MB with Unison USB running balanced outs. Source Allo USBridge Signature Player.

I put on Amanda Shire's latest album, "Take It Like A Man" [96/24] from Qobuz.

These tubes are not the most refined, but they present the music with much loved "substance" or "density". With Odyssey Shire's voice seems limitless, effortlessly roaming across the vocal spectrum, with nothing holding it back. Instrument separation and staging are "life-like" as always with Odyssey.

Again, I have never heard the HE-6SE perform this good.



As a side note - can someone explain what the blue glow is, and why whole tubes produce it more than others? Could it be that the KT66 are pushed closer to their peak range than KT170s are?


----------



## Thaddy

I believe the blue glow on the KT66's is due to the electrons interacting with the glass walls of the tube.  It's not a bad thing by any means.


----------



## audiargent

senseitedj said:


> I've got a few other cans as well, HEDDphone 87db/mw and Beyer T1 600 ohm. The HEDDphone i've really been struggling with current kit that I own. Still had clipping issues with my 2W WA6-SE. 3W Burson is just enough but can be quiet at times with some tracks, and SS sound is not my favorite.
> 
> This is actually was my primary motivation to get the Telly. Also for future insensitive HPs
> 
> But I'm hoping it can work with other HPs which have low sensitivity as well. The 4z is dead-silent on all SET tube amps i've tried so far.


You need to hear it on a powerful tube amp... It's an amazing headphone 🎧


----------



## audiargent (Sep 14, 2022)

An afternoon session. This time it is some classic CCR. 192/24 from Qobuz. This time in UL. I feel this gives more presence and vitality to the music especially drums and guitars.


----------



## OctavianH

I think your "audio-gd" themed Odyssey is my favourite build from Tomas (from the design/looks point of view). It always reminds me I have a small audio-gd NFB-11.28 DAC around here. These 2 new add-ons, Triode Mode/UL and Switchable Rectifier are available for all models or only for Odyssey/Telemachus? In other words, can I have a Citadel build which includes these alongside 12/6V one?


----------



## SonicTrance

audiargent said:


> As a side note - can someone explain what the blue glow is, and why whole tubes produce it more than others? Could it be that the KT66 are pushed closer to their peak range than KT170s are?


It usually means that the tube is gassy. But since you run new production tubes I doubt they're gassy. 



OctavianH said:


> These 2 new add-ons, Triode Mode/UL and Switchable Rectifier are available for all models or only for Odyssey/Telemachus? In other words, can I have a Citadel build which includes these alongside 12/6V one?


Triode/Ultra linear is only available for Odyssey (if using other transformers than Sowter as they've stopped supplying the screen tap). You need to have a pentode output tube to run UL mode so can't be done in Telemachus as the 300B is a triode. What UL mode means is you run the pentode tube somewhere between triode and pentode mode. UL will have more gain and distortion than triode but not as much as full on pentode connection.

Citadel is a constant current draw amp. I would not build it with anything else than a regulated power supply as it goes against the topology of the amp. The output is parafeed in all the "modern" amps so UL connection is out as well, only triode strapped pentodes


----------



## OctavianH

SonicTrance said:


> Citadel is a constant current draw amp. I would not build it with anything else than a regulated power supply as it goes against the topology of the amp. The output is parafeed in all the "modern" amps so UL connection is out as well, only triode strapped pentodes


Good to know, I was somehow foreseeing this. In other words, on Citadel we can put tube rolling (manual grid biased) and maybe 6/12v switch for heaters and that's it.


----------



## audiargent

OctavianH said:


> I think your "audio-gd" themed Odyssey is my favourite build from Tomas (from the design/looks point of view). It always reminds me I have a small audio-gd NFB-11.28 DAC around here. These 2 new add-ons, Triode Mode/UL and Switchable Rectifier are available for all models or only for Odyssey/Telemachus? In other words, can I have a Citadel build which includes these alongside 12/6V one?


I too find it the most aesthetically balanced and pleasing. Tomas did a great job with planning and spacing everything.

I am however.... Biased!


----------



## Thaddy

audiargent said:


> I too find it the most aesthetically balanced and pleasing. Tomas did a great job with planning and spacing everything.
> 
> I am however.... Biased!


Exactly what I was thinking when considering my Odyssey build options!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> It usually means that the tube is gassy. But since you run new production tubes I doubt they're gassy.



Happens on my Genalex 300b tubes too and they are new tubes. I doubt they are gassy. Lovely blue glow though that I don't see on the Psvane 300b tubes (left in picture).


----------



## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> It usually means that the tube is gassy. But since you run new production tubes I doubt they're gassy.
> 
> 
> Triode/Ultra linear is only available for Odyssey (if using other transformers than Sowter as they've stopped supplying the screen tap). You need to have a pentode output tube to run UL mode so can't be done in Telemachus as the 300B is a triode. What UL mode means is you run the pentode tube somewhere between triode and pentode mode. UL will have more gain and distortion than triode but not as much as full on pentode connection.
> ...


There are two reasons for blue in tubes. Gas is one of them. That will look like a m ore general blue glow. Specific parts of the tube glass going blue is fine, it is caused by electrons hitting the glass and causing fluorescence. I’ve never actually seen a gassy tube but I have plenty of tubes that show blue in the dark. Cameras exaggerate the blue so you’ll never see blue in real life like you do in pictures. Oh, the other reason you can see blue glows is if the amp uses mercury vapor rectifiers. Doubt Thomas will be making any amps like that though.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Cameras exaggerate the blue so you’ll never see blue in real life like you do in pictures.



That is true.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> An afternoon session. This time it is some classic CCR. 192/24 from Qobuz. This time in UL. I feel this gives more presence and vitality to the music especially drums and guitars.



Stunning picture. Odyssey is a good looker besides sounding amazing.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> These tubes are not the most refined, but they present the music with much loved "substance" or "density". With Odyssey Shire's voice seems limitless, effortlessly roaming across the vocal spectrum, with nothing holding it back. Instrument separation and staging are "life-like" as always with Odyssey.
> 
> Again, I have never heard the HE-6SE perform this good.



Having live with He6se + Odyssey and now Susvara, the difference is not subtle. He6se v2 performs very well at that price but Susvara powered by Odyssey is nirvana to me. Susvara is 3 months old now and every listening session is an amazement to my ears.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Having live with He6se + Odyssey and now Susvara, the difference is not subtle. He6se v2 performs very well at that price but Susvara powered by Odyssey is nirvana to me. Susvara is 3 months old now and every listening session is an amazement to my ears.


And and TC.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> And and TC.



Having paid for the bulk of the cost for Telemachus, I'm afraid TC is not in my roadmap for a long while.  

I've to hear Susvara from Telemachus to satisfy my itch or question about whether it's better with KT88 or 300b amp.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Having paid for the bulk of the cost for Telemachus, I'm afraid TC is not in my roadmap for a long while.
> 
> I've to hear Susvara from Telemachus to satisfy my itch or question about whether it's better with KT88 or 300b amp.


Telemachus is a worthy endeavor, one I'm currently deliberating or a custom 300B from Thomas Mayer.


----------



## OctavianH

audiargent said:


> As a side note - can someone explain what the blue glow is, and why whole tubes produce it more than others? Could it be that the KT66 are pushed closer to their peak range than KT170s are?



Happens also on my ATS25. Do  not worry, enjoy it, it is quite nice.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> Telemachus is a worthy endeavor, one I'm currently deliberating or a custom 300B from Thomas Mayer.



Interesting ! Let me know how your 300b journey turns out.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Interesting ! Let me know how your 300b journey turns out.


Broke. Currently using Supratek with Elrog pair and XT DAC with Elrog quad. Why not blow hard.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> Having live with He6se + Odyssey and now Susvara, the difference is not subtle. He6se v2 performs very well at that price but Susvara powered by Odyssey is nirvana to me. Susvara is 3 months old now and every listening session is an amazement to my ears.


The HEDDphone is technically better. More extension, resolution.

However I still enjoy the HE-6SE more.

Ironically I enjoy the SASH Trés even more.

Especially on these KT66s. More engaging to my ears.

Eventually I hope to get the Susvara, I hope when this happens I do not remain disappointed.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> Broke. Currently using Supratek with Elrog pair and XT DAC with Elrog quad. Why not blow hard.



Haha broke is a temporal state. I have high regards for Supratek. Quality stuff. Looks like you're already deep into 300b.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Haha broke is a temporal state. I have high regards for Supratek. Quality stuff. Looks like you're already deep into 300b.


It's the cost of the 300B with unmatched returns.


----------



## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> Good to know, I was somehow foreseeing this. In other words, on Citadel we can put tube rolling (manual grid biased) and maybe 6/12v switch for heaters and that's it.


Not grid biased. That would be changing the design too much I think. Citadel has LTP input and output stages with gyrator plate loads and CCS tails. If we build around a typical octal output tube, without top cap, you would be able to roll many different tubes in it without adjusting anything. The CCS will find the operating point as long as there's sufficient headroom for it. That's about 11 volts. Meaning that the bias voltage needs to be -11V or more at the fixed anode voltage and current.

6/12V switch is doable, yes.



OctavianH said:


> Happens also on my ATS25. Do  not worry, enjoy it, it is quite nice.


It's very pretty indeed!


----------



## OctavianH

SonicTrance said:


> The CCS will find the operating point as long as there's sufficient headroom for it. That's about 11 volts. Meaning that the bias voltage needs to be -11V or more at the fixed anode voltage and current.


This is something I never really understood, even if you told me about: the CCS finds its operating point or self destructs. Sounds promising. LOL
But if this solves also the "matched outputs" issue I guess it's fine because I'll have to match quads on that one. I will think about this. How about input? Here we discuss about much smaller values for bias.


----------



## normie610

TheMiddleSky said:


> Only 8 hours burn in, so definitely not much
> 
> 
> Nah, Tele definitely has great vocal position, not distant or recessed by any means, it's just that oblivion is more intimate.
> ...


TIme to throw in some quality 300Bs. Taks, Elrogs, ANs and WEs 😁


----------



## K3cT (Sep 16, 2022)

You know as I listened to the Telemachus for the first time I've come to realize that past a certain price point you really need to go with the tube route to enjoy a higher level of sound. There is something with the way Tele renders vocal, soundstage and presents details in a non-fatiguing way while still remaining fairly neutral that I don't think an SS amp can do no matter what.


----------



## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> This is something I never really understood, even if you told me about: the CCS finds its operating point or self destructs. Sounds promising. LOL
> But if this solves also the "matched outputs" issue I guess it's fine because I'll have to match quads on that one. I will think about this. How about input? Here we discuss about much smaller values for bias.


Yeah, self destructs doesn't sound promising I agree lol! But it does. Say you have a fixed anode voltage 250V and the CCS is set for 30mA. You look at the curves in the datasheet and see if the grid voltage is higher (farther beneath ground) than -11V at that operating point. If it's not, don't use the tube. Simple 

The input stage is a little different as the CCS is connected to B- instead of ground there. No need for the 11V headroom then.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

normie610 said:


> TIme to throw in some quality 300Bs. Taks, Elrogs, ANs and WEs 😁



Elrog does make me curious so bad. It looks killer too.


----------



## audiargent

SonicTrance said:


> Yeah, self destructs doesn't sound promising I agree lol! But it does. Say you have a fixed anode voltage 250V and the CCS is set for 30mA. You look at the curves in the datasheet and see if the grid voltage is higher (farther beneath ground) than -11V at that operating point. If it's not, don't use the tube. Simple
> 
> The input stage is a little different as the CCS is connected to B- instead of ground there. No need for the 11V headroom then.


Continuing on a Citadel, say using 300B triodes...

What would be the power output, and why is it quieter than more traditional builds? And what about the output transformer?

How can the power output increase?


----------



## SonicTrance

audiargent said:


> Continuing on a Citadel, say using 300B triodes...
> 
> What would be the power output, and why is it quieter than more traditional builds? And what about the output transformer?
> 
> How can the power output increase?


Power output depends on the operating point I choose for the tubes. Citadel is not meant for big power. There’s also no need for it. 
What about the output transformers?
The modern amps are quieter than old school builds for a number of design reasons. But, it’s easier to make a lower power amp quiet, with sensitive headphones, than a big power amp. 

I’m gonna flip the question. Why would you want a Citadel with big power? What’s the purpose?


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> I’m gonna flip the question. Why would you want a Citadel with big power? What’s the purpose?



I think his aim is to drive Susvara, He6se.

Here's the rub. Oblivion is 2.3w or 2.7w into 8 ohms and Odyssey is 15w (triode) into 8 ohms and 20w (UL) into 8 ohms. However they both have similar power / current to drive Susvara / He6se v2. I know because I have live with those amps and headphones. I think Oblivion has more power than what's stated or the design makes it so. Volume knobs are at 11 or no more than 12 noon for both amps and that's loud.

That being the case, Citadel is definitely up to the task of driving Susvara as it's more powerful than Oblivion.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> I think his aim is to drive Susvara, He6se.
> 
> Here's the rub. Oblivion is 2.3w or 2.7w into 8 ohms and Odyssey is 15w (triode) into 8 ohms and 20w (UL) into 8 ohms. However they both have similar power / current to drive Susvara / He6se v2. I know because I have live with those amps and headphones. I think Oblivion has more power than what's stated or the design makes it so. Volume knobs are at 11 or no more than 12 noon for both amps and that's loud.
> 
> That being the case, Citadel is definitely up to the task of driving Susvara as it's more powerful than Oblivion.


My point exactly. The modern amps doesn’t need big power because of design choices. It’s not all about the power output but circuit design


----------



## SonicTrance

Here it is! The first ever Oblivion in a silver chassis and 6P7S output tubes! 

Next up is @Isaacc7 push pull Odyssey!


----------



## Erwinatm

SonicTrance said:


> Here it is! The first ever Oblivion in a silver chassis and 6P7S output tubes!
> 
> Next up is @Isaacc7 push pull Odyssey!


Is it mine ?² 🤩


----------



## SonicTrance

Erwinatm said:


> Is it mine ?² 🤩


If you're waiting for a Silver Oblivion then yes!


----------



## Erwinatm

SonicTrance said:


> If you're waiting for a Silver Oblivion then yes!


Yikes...🥳🥳🥳


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Next up is @Isaacc7 push pull Odyssey!



That will be another first. A push pull Odyssey. So a quad of power tubes. 



Erwinatm said:


> Yikes...🥳🥳🥳



Congrats ! After 3 custom build amps, I can still feel the excitement and anticipation of waiting for the arrival of a new amp. This one looks very much like a silver Citadel.


----------



## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> Here it is! The first ever Oblivion in a silver chassis and 6P7S output tubes!
> 
> Next up is @Isaacc7 push pull Odyssey!


That looks great and all but I’m kinda distracted by the news I’m up next!


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> I think his aim is to drive Susvara, He6se.
> 
> Here's the rub. Oblivion is 2.3w or 2.7w into 8 ohms and Odyssey is 15w (triode) into 8 ohms and 20w (UL) into 8 ohms. However they both have similar power / current to drive Susvara / He6se v2. I know because I have live with those amps and headphones. I think Oblivion has more power than what's stated or the design makes it so. Volume knobs are at 11 or no more than 12 noon for both amps and that's loud.
> 
> That being the case, Citadel is definitely up to the task of driving Susvara as it's more powerful than Oblivion.


With the impedance switch I get around 9w into 50 ohms. I feel the HE-6SE needs the power. 

But I would prefer a quieter Citadel, if I ever get to invest in ZMFs or more sensitive flagships.

@SonicTrance that's quite an amp you built there!


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> With the impedance switch I get around 9w into 50 ohms. I feel the HE-6SE needs the power.
> 
> But I would prefer a quieter Citadel, if I ever get to invest in ZMFs or more sensitive flagships.
> 
> @SonicTrance that's quite an amp you built there!



The argument then comes back to He6se, Susvara needing a 150 watter stereo amp. It's over cooked and over discussed in Susvara thread and I won't repeat it here again after this post.

I have at home 150 watts amps into 8 ohms. 2 of them and they drive my floor standing speakers. Susvara driven off the speaker taps of those ss stereo amps aren't better off than Odyssey and Oblivion. I listen to Susvara off Odyssey and Oblivion. I do not feel the need to power those headphones with ss amps. Way before Susvara arrived, I have also tested He6se v2.


----------



## Isaacc7

audiargent said:


> With the impedance switch I get around 9w into 50 ohms. I feel the HE-6SE needs the power.
> 
> But I would prefer a quieter Citadel, if I ever get to invest in ZMFs or more sensitive flagships.
> 
> @SonicTrance that's quite an amp you built there!


I don’t think wattage is the issue. Over at ASR he found it took 1.3 watts to get to 94db. I find that level to be really uncomfortably loud. Interestingly he found the impedance to be 64 ohms instead of the speced 50 ohms. Seems to me that the amperage supplied is more of an issue than the watts. 

I am incredibly jealous about the pure resistive load that these headphones present. Is that typical of headphones or just planar Magnetics?


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> I don’t think wattage is the issue. Over at ASR he found it took 1.3 watts to get to 94db. I find that level to be really uncomfortably loud. Interestingly he found the impedance to be 64 ohms instead of the speced 50 ohms. Seems to me that the amperage supplied is more of an issue than the watts.
> 
> I am incredibly jealous about the pure resistive load that these headphones present. Is that typical of headphones or just planar Magnetics?



Susvara is 60 ohms and 83 dB. Not all headphones are this hard to drive. Just Susvara and He6se. Certainly not a trait of planar magnetics because the He1000se can be driven by an iPhone. He1000se is 35 ohms and 96 dB, a very efficient headphone.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> Susvara is 60 ohms and 83 dB. Not all headphones are this hard to drive. Just Susvara and He6se. Certainly not a trait of planar magnetics because the He1000se can be driven by an iPhone. He1000se is 35 ohms and 96 dB, a very efficient headphone.


I was more curious about the impedance curve. Tube amps, especially single ended ones, love resistive loads. Loudspeakers with their multiple drivers, ports, and crossover networks inevitably have a variable impedance as the frequency changes.


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey, odyssey how I love thee. Change of drivers to Philips Miniwatt EL11 slim tubes and Brimar 6SL7gt red letters. I've been using these Psvane KT88 Tii for a week and they are beautiful sounding. As mention several times, I still haven't found my favorite power tubes because they are all good in my inventory. A delimma selecting which tubes to use.


----------



## K3cT

I wonder if @SonicTrance can comment if he prefers SS or tube rectification? Seems there are two school of thoughts here.


----------



## Erwinatm

UntilThen said:


> That will be another first. A push pull Odyssey. So a quad of power tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats ! After 3 custom build amps, I can still feel the excitement and anticipation of waiting for the arrival of a new amp. This one looks very much like a silver Citadel.


The longer the wait, the harder the adrenaline kick...👌


----------



## UntilThen

K3cT said:


> I wonder if @SonicTrance can comment if he prefers SS or tube rectification? Seems there are two school of thoughts here.



What did you prefer on Telemachus? I'm leaning more on old school. So tube rectification for me although I will have the dual option.


----------



## K3cT

UntilThen said:


> What did you prefer on Telemachus? I'm leaning more on old school. So tube rectification for me although I will have the dual option.



We didn't try the tube option because we didn't have the 5U4G tube for it.


----------



## Erwinatm (Sep 18, 2022)

K3cT said:


> I wonder if @SonicTrance can comment if he prefers SS or tube rectification? Seems there are two school of thoughts here.


It depends on your music taste, if you prefer fast pace, slamming bass, SS rectifier more suitable, ie EDM, Hard rock etc. 

In classical if you prefer adagio than andante choose tube rectifier. 

All the way tubes will give lush sound, sweet mids, forgiving treble than its SS compatriot.


----------



## UntilThen

K3cT said:


> We didn't try the tube option because we didn't have the 5U4G tube for it.



Not even GZ34? How prepared are you for Telemachus arrival?


----------



## UntilThen

From a visitor's impressions of CanJam SoCal 2022

Hifiman Susvara: Best in show (demoed on the dCS Lina stack) of what I heard. Same impression last year on different amps. This is the one headphone where my critical listening radar finally turned off, and gave way to total immersion and bliss. They even fixed problematic hot spots in certain of my favorite tracks that come through in most top tier headphones. I could do this for hours. I WANT them, but I'm too cheap, so instead I just fly south and listen to them once a year.  

I would add not just best in show but best in universe and I'm listening from the setup of Yggdrasil > Odyssey. Superb setup and one that I need to listen once everyday for the rest of my audio journey.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> From a visitor's impressions of CanJam SoCal 2022
> 
> Hifiman Susvara: Best in show (demoed on the dCS Lina stack) of what I heard. Same impression last year on different amps. This is the one headphone where my critical listening radar finally turned off, and gave way to total immersion and bliss. They even fixed problematic hot spots in certain of my favorite tracks that come through in most top tier headphones. I could do this for hours. I WANT them, but I'm too cheap, so instead I just fly south and listen to them once a year.
> 
> I would add not just best in show but best in universe and I'm listening from the setup of Yggdrasil > Odyssey. Superb setup and one that I need to listen once everyday for the rest of my audio journey.


Pfuii! I bet you have never listened to a pair of Sennheiser HD414 from a Ferguson receiver...









Get real!!!


----------



## triod750

That was where I started and found my nirvana.....back then...


----------



## TheMiddleSky

UntilThen said:


> Not even GZ34? How prepared are you for Telemachus arrival?



I believe @senseitedj prepare Sophia 274B for the rectifier tube, need to wait him till touchdown in Indonesia though


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> Here it is! The first ever Oblivion in a silver chassis and 6P7S output tubes!



Got to like it, it reminds me of my LD... before I went all out with the chassis extension lol.


----------



## SonicTrance

TheMiddleSky said:


> I believe @senseitedj prepare Sophia 274B for the rectifier tube, need to wait him till touchdown in Indonesia though


The Sophia 274B’s are kind of weak tubes. Make sure to check datasheet for the specific one he has. It needs to supply 200mA.


----------



## senseitedj

TheMiddleSky said:


> I believe @senseitedj prepare Sophia 274B for the rectifier tube, need to wait him till touchdown in Indonesia though



I also brought some JJ GZ34 to come along. Hopefully this might be good enough.  Will look into bringing my other tubes


----------



## normie610

senseitedj said:


> I also brought some JJ GZ34 to come along. Hopefully this might be good enough.  Will look into bringing my other tubes


You can also try Mullard GZ34 or CV1377.


----------



## senseitedj

normie610 said:


> You can also try Mullard GZ34 or CV1377.



Actually bringing my GEC U52 now


----------



## normie610

senseitedj said:


> Actually bringing my GEC U52 now


Now that’s another beast!


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Actually bringing my GEC U52 now



That's a superb rectifier. Regretted selling mine but I didn't know then that I will have amps that will use it after selling off Studio Six and keeping Oblivion.


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> That's a superb rectifier. Regretted selling mine but I didn't know then that I will have amps that will use it after selling off Studio Six and keeping Oblivion.


Tried it with the WA6. It gave such a big performance boost in soundstage and its remarkably euphonic.

Its a cut above the rest of my tube collection. You can even see it from the quality in craftsmanship of the glass


----------



## DecentLevi

Just checkin' in to say how absolutely sublime my experience is with my custom Finyssey amp running Sylvania 6SN7W (black chrome base short tube with silver top that I got from Stavros) as input with either EL39 or Valvo EL12 as output tubes. As irony would have it, I've always relinquished these tubes to the back of my stack. For years it sounded lacking, flabby or dull on my Feliks Audio amps, and even when I first got this same Ultrasonic amp. Since then I've made major system changes to very high performing top AC, headphone and interconnect cables, DAC, headphones, amp burn-in, etc. Now with these 6SN7W's I'm graced with aplomb finesse and purity of all aspects of sound! Smooth detailed treble, liquid mids, immediate dynamics, huge lifelike soundstage and bass that may be unlike I have ever heard before - and that's saying a lot myself also being a sound design artist that has hand-crafted hundreds of kick drums and synth patches.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> You can also try Mullard GZ34 or CV1377.


Comparison to U52? I'm champing to pick up the Elrog 5U4G.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> Comparison to U52? I'm champing to pick up the Elrog 5U4G.


Ha! You go Elrogs all the way!

Sadly there’s not enough space on the Manley for two U52s. I’ve been dying to try them out (and Elrog 274Bs) but physically it’s just not possible. I can stack some socket savers to make it work, but perhaps I need to stack 5-6 socket savers to do it, which is not ideal 😁


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> Ha! You go Elrogs all the way!
> 
> Sadly there’s not enough space on the Manley for two U52s. I’ve been dying to try them out (and Elrog 274Bs) but physically it’s just not possible. I can stack some socket savers to make it work, but perhaps I need to stack 5-6 socket savers to do it, which is not ideal 😁


I really love the GZ34 but it is clear Elrog is simply next level.

Ha. I might wager five socket savers is worth it!


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> I really love the GZ34 but it is clear Elrog is simply next level.
> 
> Ha. I might wager five socket savers is worth it!


Well I already have 10 of them, and I did stack em up when I used EML’s 5U4Gs but I don’t really dig their sound. It seems the Manley is better sounding using small rectifiers, particularly GZ34s and 5AR4s.


----------



## UntilThen

On Odyssey, NOS GZ34 rules the air ways.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> Well I already have 10 of them, and I did stack em up when I used EML’s 5U4Gs but I don’t really dig their sound. It seems the Manley is better sounding using small rectifiers, particularly GZ34s and 5AR4s.


Yea, but EML kind of stink unless you play their glorious 45. You must try again!


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> On Odyssey, NOS GZ34 rules the air ways.


I'll send you the Elrog 5U4G so we know for sure.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> I'll send you the Elrog 5U4G so we know for sure.



Sure 😀👍


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> I'll send you the Elrog 5U4G so we know for sure.



I also have nos Mullard and GE 5u4g.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> I also have nos Mullard and GE 5u4g.


Excellent companionship. I've yet to hear something I enjoy as much as the Mullard GZ34 so look forward to the endeavor.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> Excellent companionship. I've yet to hear something I enjoy as much as the Mullard GZ34 so look forward to the endeavor.



I have 3 GZ34. A metal base, a f33 made in Brussels and another made in Sittard Holland. 

Life for me is GZ34 and more GZ34. A fat base F31 is tempting but I need to save up for a pair of 300b. 😗


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> I have 3 GZ34. A metal base, a f33 made in Brussels and another made in Sittard Holland.
> 
> Life for me is GZ34 and more GZ34. A fat base F31 is tempting but I need to save up for a pair of 300b. 😗


The best. Are you going with Western Electric? If you come across the Audio Note 4300E, don't blink, they're really incredible.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> The best. Are you going with Western Electric? If you come across the Audio Note 4300E, don't blink, they're really incredible.



Decision to be made closer to Telemachus delivery.


----------



## alvin sawdust

DecentLevi said:


> Just checkin' in to say how absolutely sublime my experience is with my custom Finyssey amp running Sylvania 6SN7W (black chrome base short tube with silver top that I got from Stavros) as input with either EL39 or Valvo EL12 as output tubes. As irony would have it, I've always relinquished these tubes to the back of my stack. For years it sounded lacking, flabby or dull on my Feliks Audio amps, and even when I first got this same Ultrasonic amp. Since then I've made major system changes to very high performing top AC, headphone and interconnect cables, DAC, headphones, amp burn-in, etc. Now with these 6SN7W's I'm graced with aplomb finesse and purity of all aspects of sound! Smooth detailed treble, liquid mids, immediate dynamics, huge lifelike soundstage and bass that may be unlike I have ever heard before - and that's saying a lot myself also being a sound design artist that has hand-crafted hundreds of kick drums and synth patches.


UltraSonic house sound!


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Decision to be made closer to Telemachus delivery.


Plenty time to consider then reconsider Elrogs.


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> UltraSonic house sound!



There is indeed a Ultrasonic Studio house sound. Clarity, dynamics and fast transients. In Odyssey's case, also a deep satisfying bass.


----------



## K3cT

I wish we have comparisons between Telemachus and DNA Stratus or Stellaris but judging from the various impressions it seems that DNA house sound is very different anyway... seems to lean more towards a classical tube sound perhaps? Not necessarily warm or mushy but more gentle in general.


----------



## UntilThen

K3cT said:


> I wish we have comparisons between Telemachus and DNA Stratus or Stellaris but judging from the various impressions it seems that DNA house sound is very different anyway... seems to lean more towards a classical tube sound perhaps? Not necessarily warm or mushy but more gentle in general.



I'm more interested in a comparison between Telemachus and Feliks Audio Envy, the latter getting solid traction in the recent CanJam SoCal 2022. Specifically I would like to hear Susvara through those 2 amps.


----------



## Thaddy

@UntilThen are you planning on getting the new ZMF Caldera?  Very curious to hear how they'll sound with Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> @UntilThen are you planning on getting the new ZMF Caldera?  Very curious to hear how they'll sound with Odyssey.



The thought is there but what happens to 2023 remains to be seen. Susvara has barely been through the honeymoon period and frankly I'm at the end with this headphone - my ears says so. Especially when powered by Odyssey. If Odyssey had gone to CanJam SoCal 2022, there will be a riot. Never mind the big names there.  

When I had He1000se and LCD4, I spend most times with He1000se so I know where my preferred sound signature lies. Before that Verite Open gave way to He1000se too.

Moving on from He1000se to Susvara has been a big jump. Susvara is a pleasure machine when amped by Odyssey. I don't know if Telemachus would do better. Will have to find out !


----------



## Velozity

I'm intrigued by the Elrogs.  Anyone who has them and moved on(up?) from EML care to share impressions?  I'm interested in trying out a second higher-end tube complement.


----------



## normie610

Velozity said:


> I'm intrigued by the Elrogs.  Anyone who has them and moved on(up?) from EML care to share impressions?  I'm interested in trying out a second higher-end tube complement.


@paradoxper is the best person to give you the impressions


----------



## gibosi (Sep 21, 2022)

Velozity said:


> I'm intrigued by the Elrogs.  Anyone who has them and moved on(up?) from EML care to share impressions?  I'm interested in trying out a second higher-end tube complement.



And I am interested in how they compare to the best of the NOS rectifiers.

Corrected.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> And I am interested in how they compare to the best of the NOS rectifiers.



I think they are talking about 300b tubes.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> @paradoxper is the best person to give you the impressions


EML are a little more dry and lean where the Elrog is fuller than all 300B but not of commission, they are faster, tighter and better extended top to bottom.
They do not sound like the 300B more like a beef 45 and they are the must with planar pairing.


----------



## SonicTrance

Speaking of tubes. I actually bought some for my upcoming Telemachus I'm building for myself  

First I got these WE300B's. It's going to be interesting to hear the difference between these and the Gold Lions I got. Don't expect a detailed review of these tubes as I'm terrible at that kind of stuff lol. Definitely the nicest packed tubes I ever got that's for sure.







I also got these rectifiers. Mullard GZ37, RCA 5R4GY, Brimar GZ32 and Brimar 5V4. The 5V4 is really not recommended in Telemachus as the maximum voltage allowed is surpassed but I'm gonna try it out. As I said, NOT recommended though!
I'm looking forward to playing with these!


----------



## triod750

@SonicTrance  ; how long is the queue for your amp?


----------



## gibosi

SonicTrance said:


> Speaking of tubes. I actually bought some for my upcoming Telemachus I'm building for myself
> 
> First I got these WE300B's. It's going to be interesting to hear the difference between these and the Gold Lions I got. Don't expect a detailed review of these tubes as I'm terrible at that kind of stuff lol. Definitely the nicest packed tubes I ever got that's for sure.
> 
> ...



For sure those WE 300Bs are beautiful. 

However, I don't think Brimar ever made the GZ32. My best guess is yours is Russian.


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> For sure those WE 300Bs are beautiful.
> 
> However, I don't think Brimar ever made the GZ32. My best guess is yours is Russian.


Yeah those WE 300B's are gorgeous looking tubes!


----------



## alvin sawdust

Thought the GZ32 is a no no in the Tele?


----------



## Thaddy

SonicTrance said:


> Speaking of tubes. I actually bought some for my upcoming Telemachus I'm building for myself
> 
> First I got these WE300B's. It's going to be interesting to hear the difference between these and the Gold Lions I got. Don't expect a detailed review of these tubes as I'm terrible at that kind of stuff lol. Definitely the nicest packed tubes I ever got that's for sure.
> 
> ...


Those RCA 5R4GY's are some of my favorite "budget" rectifiers.  I think I paid $35 USD for my single bottom getter and $60 USD for my dual-bottom getter.  Hope you like them!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Speaking of tubes. I actually bought some for my upcoming Telemachus I'm building for myself
> 
> First I got these WE300B's. It's going to be interesting to hear the difference between these and the Gold Lions I got. Don't expect a detailed review of these tubes as I'm terrible at that kind of stuff lol. Definitely the nicest packed tubes I ever got that's for sure.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing about your tubes. First time you ever did.  That packaging for WE300B is really nice. They retail for about AUD$2500 for a matched pair here.


----------



## SonicTrance

alvin sawdust said:


> Thought the GZ32 is a no no in the Tele?


No, should be fine. 👍


----------



## gibosi

alvin sawdust said:


> Thought the GZ32 is a no no in the Tele?


 It depends on B+. If it is signficantly higher in the Tele than a typical OTL, it will fail.....


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> It depends on B+. If it is signficantly higher in the Tele than a typical OTL, it will fail.....


It depends on the secondary high voltage AC winding and the current draw of the amp. The GZ32 can put out 250mA with 2x350V input (cap input filter, like the Tele) Telemachus is 2x400V and draws around 175mA so should be fine.


----------



## gibosi

SonicTrance said:


> It depends on the secondary high voltage AC winding and the current draw of the amp. The GZ32 can put out 250mA with 2x350V input (cap input filter, like the Tele) Telemachus is 2x400V and draws around 175mA so should be fine.



This is good to know.   In Glenn's 300B amps, GZ32's failed. But I think his circuit was closer to 2x500V (cap input) and the best the GZ32 can put out at that voltage is 125mA. But the amp wanted more and the poor little GZ32 just couldn't do it.


----------



## UntilThen

Rectifier day. I can use these in both Odyssey and Telemachus.

Sittard GZ34 is in Odyssey so cannot be displayed. 

From left: Emitron 53ku, Mullard GZ34 f33, Miniwatt GZ34 metal base, Mullard GZ32, Mullard 5U4G (Made in USA  ), GE 5U4G and USAF 596 from Woo.


----------



## UntilThen

Did I say rectifier day? Yes and I'm rolling rectifier today.  First up is the understated Mullard GZ32. Coming from Sittard GZ34, this has more texture and I was shocked that I love it, as much as the GZ34. There is more body and just a little more warmth but the tone is so clear and NOT sloppy. There is a liveliness here that engage me with the music. It's smooth and tactile at the same time.

If anyone had told me that rectifiers don't make a difference to the sound, I wouldn't believe them now because clearly I am hearing a difference. The rest of the tube combination are the same and they are - Tung Sol 6SU7gty (6SL7) and Philips Miniwatt (labelled Mullard) EL34 double D getters.

1


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> First up is the understated Mullard GZ32. Coming from Sittard GZ34, this has more texture and I was shocked that I love it, as much as the GZ34. There is more body and just a little more warmth but the tone is so clear and NOT sloppy. There is a liveliness here that engage me with the music. It's smooth and tactile at the same time.



And I agree. To my ears, the Mullard GZ32 is the best Mullard rectifier. I like it better than GZ33, GZ34 and GZ37.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> And I agree. To my ears, the Mullard GZ32 is the best Mullard rectifier. I like it better than GZ33, GZ34 and GZ37.



I may end up agreeing with you but I'm not finished going through the rectifiers yet. It's now 53ku's turn. The sharp clarity is down a notch but the texture and bass is up for sure. I listen to Daniel Castro's I'll sing the blues for you and it's right at home. Similarly Norah Jones's Don't know why and Jimmy Barnes's Stone Cold and Joe Bonamassa's Drive !

Emitron 53ku


----------



## senseitedj

Happy to finally received my telly.

Just enjoying with lcd 4z and heddphone. No hum and hissing whatsoever with me. Even with my sensitive Audezes.

Amazing to have that 300b sound with the agility of SS. I'm very pleased


----------



## whirlwind

I like Mullard GZ32 also...like the 37 too.


----------



## OctavianH

senseitedj said:


> Happy to finally received my telly.


Haha, you have knobs like mine, nice blue jeans.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Amazing to have that 300b sound with the agility of SS.



I still can't figure out what that is. So I'm naturally intrigued.


----------



## alvin sawdust

Mullard GZ32 doing rectifier duties and it sounds how I hoped it would, alive and deeply engaging.
Two live albums, Fink & The Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra and Donny Hathaway: These Songs For You Live sound utterly beguiling.
I've got things to get on with but I can't  get my backside out of the chair 😬


----------



## normie610

UntilThen said:


> Tung Sol 6SU7gty (6SL7)


God I love this tube!


----------



## UntilThen (Sep 23, 2022)

normie610 said:


> God I love this tube!



I love all my 6SL7 tubes and I only need one. 😀

Tung Sol 6SU7gty
Sylvania 6SL7gt vt-229
Brimar 6SL7gt red letters
RCA 5691 red base


----------



## normie610

UntilThen said:


> I love all my 6SL7 tubes and I only need one. 😀
> 
> Tung Sol 6SU7gty
> Sylvania 6SL7gt vt-229
> ...


You mean the RCA 5691 red base?

Yeah I have too many 6SL7 tubes now 😂 but lucky you, you only need 1 piece for Odyssey right? I need a pair for my preamp, so it doubles the cost every time I’m buying them 😓

Tung Sol VT 229 factory matched pair
Tung Sol 6SU7GTY
RCA Red Base 5691
Linlai E-6SL7
Brimar 6SL7GT (current favorite)
Fivre 6SL7GT
MELZ 6N9S (this one still on the way though)
Shuguang WE6SL7 Plus


----------



## UntilThen

normie610 said:


> You mean the RCA 5691 red base?



Yes my typo error. Mine is GE branded and it's the only 6SL7 that I have a pair.

Do you have a picture of your Brimar 6SL7GT, seeing it's your favorite.

This is mine.


----------



## normie610

UntilThen said:


> Do you have a picture of your Brimar 6SL7GT, seeing it's your favorite.


You can find the picture here:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hea...t-for-all-300b-tube-amps.962932/post-17151351

Mine is with white letters though.


----------



## Isaacc7

All this talk about rectifiers has me wondering again, what is the casual mechanism of different brand rectifiers changing the sound? I understand changing operating points of tubes changing the sound but I don't understand how a Mullard vs. RCA of the same type rectifier can change the sound assuming they are both adhering to the specs. A power supply, including the diodes, is supposed to be providing DC to the amplification circuit. DC is the absence of signal electrically. I know just enough to be dangerous with topics like this but it's my understanding that the diodes used , whether solid state or tube, are not as important to the power supply as the choke and power transformer. 

So what gives? I have not noticed any difference between an RCA and EH (Russian) 5u4gt and most of my previous amps have had solid state power supplies.


----------



## Isaacc7

Isaacc7 said:


> All this talk about rectifiers has me wondering again, what is the casual mechanism of different brand rectifiers changing the sound? I understand changing operating points of tubes changing the sound but I don't understand how a Mullard vs. RCA of the same type rectifier can change the sound assuming they are both adhering to the specs. A power supply, including the diodes, is supposed to be providing DC to the amplification circuit. DC is the absence of signal electrically. I know just enough to be dangerous with topics like this but it's my understanding that the diodes used , whether solid state or tube, are not as important to the power supply as the choke and power transformer.
> 
> So what gives? I have not noticed any difference between an RCA and EH (Russian) 5u4gt and most of my previous amps have had solid state power supplies.


I've been in conversation with someone about this. I also realized @SonicTrance went over this with me too I think. The fact that rectifiers can impact sound quality means that the power supply is letting stuff through and not giving pure DC to the amplification circuit. Regulating the supply would cure that but then it doesn't make any sense to use a tube to do rectification. So in rather circular fashion tube rectifiers can change the sound because the circuits that use them are susceptible to changes to the rectifier lol.


----------



## senseitedj

Put the telly on the scales last night. Just thought I'd share incase you're wondering about its weight with 5 tubes. It weighs 21.15 kg

Might be useful when getting a quote for cargo or for selecting audio furniture. The box next to the scales is not from the telly.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm a bit surprised it's not 30 kgs because Odyssey feels like it and I'm sure Telemachus is heavier than Odyssey.


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> I'm a bit surprised it's not 30 kgs because Odyssey feels like it and I'm sure Telemachus is heavier than Odyssey.


Put it on the scales mate and find out.

Most of the weight on the telly is on the transformers. Everything is else is quite reasonable


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Put it on the scales mate and find out.
> 
> Most of the weight on the telly is on the transformers. Everything is else is quite reasonable



I don't have such scale. Odyssey's weight is also on the transformers. It's tilted backwards when you carry it. I had a Sansui 907mr before that weighs 31 kgs and that almost kill me. Odyssey seems just as heavy.


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> I've been in conversation with someone about this. I also realized @SonicTrance went over this with me too I think. The fact that rectifiers can impact sound quality means that the power supply is letting stuff through and not giving pure DC to the amplification circuit. Regulating the supply would cure that but then it doesn't make any sense to use a tube to do rectification. So in rather circular fashion tube rectifiers can change the sound because the circuits that use them are susceptible to changes to the rectifier lol.


I imagine you are right with your last sentence.

Re: diodes the operating speed, voltage and current must be a factor, the faster the speed the better the rectification. If it is struggling to keep up with the input to the diode before breakdown, that must affect the sound in a way. I don't think diodes are 100% efficient so this could be a factor, also when breakdown and reverse polarity occurs I think the efficiency of recovery to the correct current flow would have an effect. I don't know how that would affect sound but it could do. Obviously the better the diode switches on and off the better it will be. I have an amp, the APPJ, that has a diode upgrade which I haven't done on it, but I assume that the reason it is effective is because it is faster.

Just my twopenny worth.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I don't have such scale. Odyssey's weight is also on the transformers. It's tilted backwards when you carry it. I had a Sansui 907mr before that weighs *31 kgs and that almost kill me. *Odyssey seems just as heavy.


You were lucky.  Cary 211's were 48 kgs in the shipping crate, and 39 kgs once removed.  The reward?  You get to do it twice 'cause they're mono amps.   🤣


----------



## Isaacc7

bcowen said:


> You were lucky.  Cary 211's were 48 kgs in the shipping crate, and 39 kgs once removed.  The reward?  You get to do it twice 'cause they're mono amps.   🤣


Those Cary amps are beasts, but sweet ones One of my favorite features of those is the variable feedback. I usually preferred it with a little bit of feedback. I don't remember the increments but I seem to remember liking them set to 1/3 to 1/2 on the knob.


----------



## Isaacc7

baronbeehive said:


> I imagine you are right with your last sentence.
> 
> Re: diodes the operating speed, voltage and current must be a factor, the faster the speed the better the rectification. If it is struggling to keep up with the input to the diode before breakdown, that must affect the sound in a way. I don't think diodes are 100% efficient so this could be a factor, also when breakdown and reverse polarity occurs I think the efficiency of recovery to the correct current flow would have an effect. I don't know how that would affect sound but it could do. Obviously the better the diode switches on and off the better it will be. I have an amp, the APPJ, that has a diode upgrade which I haven't done on it, but I assume that the reason it is effective is because it is faster.
> 
> Just my twopenny worth.


What you say makes sense. Also makes me think that high speed rectifiers are the way to go. I'm certain that the engineers who designed all the classic tube amp circuits would have used solid state rectification if they had access to it. Then again, the engineering mindset abandoned tubes as soon as "better" solid state amplification came around  I'm glad that I opted for solid state rectification if for no other reason I don't have to spend money on the fancy rectifiers!


----------



## gibosi

baronbeehive said:


> I imagine you are right with your last sentence.
> 
> Re: diodes the operating speed, voltage and current must be a factor, the faster the speed the better the rectification. If it is struggling to keep up with the input to the diode before breakdown, that must affect the sound in a way. I don't think diodes are 100% efficient so this could be a factor, also when breakdown and reverse polarity occurs I think the efficiency of recovery to the correct current flow would have an effect. I don't know how that would affect sound but it could do. Obviously the better the diode switches on and off the better it will be. I have an amp, the APPJ, that has a diode upgrade which I haven't done on it, but I assume that the reason it is effective is because it is faster.
> 
> Just my twopenny worth.



Interestingly, one of the reasons some prefer HEXFRED solid-state rectifiers is because they turn on and off more slowly, similar to a tube. They believe that very fast switching solid state rectifiers exhibit more odd-order "hash" distortion.

But given that my ears are old and worn out, I can't hear it. lol


----------



## senseitedj

Enjoying the telly with the view of the local skyline next to me

Rollin various rectifier tubes and SS power supply (JJ GZ34, U52 GEC and 274b Sophia). Testing with LCD 4z/HEDDphone

Keeping 300b and 6sn7 tubes constant for now. Will post ranking of rectifier tube / headphone pairings soon..


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> Those Cary amps are beasts, but sweet ones One of my favorite features of those is the variable feedback. I usually preferred it with a little bit of feedback. I don't remember the increments but I seem to remember liking them set to 1/3 to 1/2 on the knob.


That's an interesting feature I haven't seen much. It's something I was thinking of trying on the LD.


----------



## baronbeehive

gibosi said:


> Interestingly, one of the reasons some prefer HEXFRED solid-state rectifiers is because they turn on and off more slowly, similar to a tube. They believe that very fast switching solid state rectifiers exhibit more odd-order "hash" distortion.
> 
> But given that my ears are old and worn out, I can't hear it. lol


Interesting to know. There can be effects such as you say and phase cycles are important. But I would have thought that for the PSU speed is key to avoid problems such as clipping and smooth out transient recovery. That's the reason I had to extend the chassis on my LD to use faster acting film caps over lytic caps and it does make a difference.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Enjoying the telly with the view of the local skyline next to me



Life's little pleasure. Telly could soon be the new name.  When I think of Telly, it's the american actor Telly Savalas that I think of.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Life's little pleasure. Telly could soon be the new name.  When I think of Telly, it's the american actor Telly Savalas that I think of.



"Who loves ya baby"!


----------



## Isaacc7

baronbeehive said:


> That's an interesting feature I haven't seen much. It's something I was thinking of trying on the LD.


It’s a nice option although I think you’d probably set it and not move it again. And I can’t imagine doing too much tube rolling with the 211 lol. When I got to use them you could still get American 211 and 845 tubes no problem. Nowadays I think it’s only Chinese and German.


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> It’s a nice option although I think you’d probably set it and not move it again. And I can’t imagine doing too much tube rolling with the 211 lol. When I got to use them you could still get American 211 and 845 tubes no problem. Nowadays I think it’s only Chinese and German.


KR is currently making both the 211 and 845.  Not cheap, but not as expensive as NOS RCA's and GE's.**  Unbelievable how the prices on those have skyrocketed.  Back when I had the 211 amps (and the 805's) which admittedly was a long time ago, I got two nicely matched pairs of RCA 845's for around $500 (total).  Single RCA's are now going for $1500+.   Sheeez.

** despite my habitual bashing of GE tubes, their 211 was an extremely good sounding tube.  Don't know if they ever made an 845...I never had the chance to hear them if they did.


----------



## audiargent

senseitedj said:


> Enjoying the telly with the view of the local skyline next to me
> 
> Rollin various rectifier tubes and SS power supply (JJ GZ34, U52 GEC and 274b Sophia). Testing with LCD 4z/HEDDphone
> 
> Keeping 300b and 6sn7 tubes constant for now. Will post ranking of rectifier tube / headphone pairings soon..


Would be interesting to hear as I have the HEDDphone as well!


----------



## senseitedj (Sep 25, 2022)

audiargent said:


> Would be interesting to hear as I have the HEDDphone as well!



Stiff competition between HEDDphone + GEC U52 vs. lcd 4z + SS PSU for the top spot. Tough to decide between the two but what a nice problem to have 

In the meantime. Enjoy the telly in evening lights.


----------



## Isaacc7 (Sep 25, 2022)

bcowen said:


> KR is currently making both the 211 and 845.  Not cheap, but not as expensive as NOS RCA's and GE's.**  Unbelievable how the prices on those have skyrocketed.  Back when I had the 211 amps (and the 805's) which admittedly was a long time ago, I got two nicely matched pairs of RCA 845's for around $500 (total).  Single RCA's are now going for $1500+.   Sheeez.
> 
> ** despite my habitual bashing of GE tubes, their 211 was an extremely good sounding tube.  Don't know if they ever made an 845...I never had the chance to hear them if they did.


Rarity leads to high price. I always wondered why Dennis called the 805 amplifiers that. They didn't use the 805 tube!

Also, I'm really enjoying the GE 6bg6. There's a couple of flavors of them, one looks like their 6l6gc but with black instead of grey plates. A lot of people like their 6l6gc so I'm hopeful.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Stiff competition between HEDDphone + GEC U52 vs. lcd 4z + SS PSU for the top spot. Tough to decide between the two but what a nice problem to have
> 
> In the meantime. Enjoy the telly in evening lights.



Glad you're enjoying Telemachus.


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> Rarity leads to high price. I always wondered why Dennis called the 805 amplifiers that. They didn't use the 805 tube!
> 
> Also, I'm really enjoying the GE 6bg6. There's a couple of flavors of them, one looks like their 6l6gc but with black instead of grey plates. A lot of people like their 6l6gc so I'm hopeful.


Yeah, I'm not sure either.  But the thought of 1500 volts in a protruding top cap is a bit on the insane side, so glad they went with the 845 instead.  Probably saved a few audiophile lives. 🤣 

I remember the first version used an EL34 instead of the 300B.  It was a nice sounding amp like that but nothing superlative.  The 300B took it to a whole 'nuther level.


----------



## Isaacc7

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I'm not sure either.  But the thought of 1500 volts in a protruding top cap is a bit on the insane side, so glad they went with the 845 instead.  Probably saved a few audiophile lives. 🤣
> 
> I remember the first version used an EL34 instead of the 300B.  It was a nice sounding amp like that but nothing superlative.  The 300B took it to a whole 'nuther level.


Don't think the 805 tube has a top cap. 

Dennis demoed those amps at a dealer I used to hang out at. Part of his spiel was the safety measures he designed into the amp. Boasted that he could pull the 211 out while it was playing music and not incur and danger. He moved towards the playing system and we all flinched lol.


----------



## senseitedj (Sep 26, 2022)

So after 25 hours or so of testing with various HP and Rectifier tube /SS PSU combinations, here are my rankings. 300B and 6SN7 tubes are kept constant. I will also state the impedance output as it has significant influence on its dynamics.

Will also read out what the mA meter says on the amp so everyone can get a feel on how the rectifier tubes changes things. The change from swapping rectifier tubes itself provides more significant difference than listening to different SS amps.

300B: PSVANE HiFi Series
6SN7: Sovtek (6h8c)

HPs: HEDDphone/ LCD-4z
Rectifier Tubes: JJ GZ34S, Sophia 274B Clear version, GEC U52 brown base

*Rankings:*

=1 (LCD-4z + SS PSU, Lo Z) 68mA on meter

Best performing from a technical standpoint. Best balance in FR across the spectrum. Soundstage, imaging and layering are the best. Instruments are placed in 360 space with very corporeal seperation of disance from the listener. Hearing details from tracks I did not hear before. Microscopic details and textures are presented very clearly such as from violin strings and guitar plucking. It has the speed of SS to render these very clearly but the harmonic richness of the 300B to enhance the sound. Very relaxing listen, 'ease-ful' sounding and minimal listening fatigue.

=1 (HEDDphone + GEC U52, Hi Z) 60 mA on meter

Loses out abit in instrument depth layering, but still good placement around 360 space. Has very good speed but the 300B sound is even more significant. Vocals feel powerful and have much more body. Highly engaging and emotional experience. Loses out abit on detail retrieval, but textures are still rendered clearly but with even more harmonic richness and weight. Never thought my HEDDphone can sound this engaging. Tube reverb is strong. Very edge-of-your-seat listening experience.

2 (HEDDphone + JJ GZ34, Hi Z) 70 mA on meter

Same as above with GEC U52 but even more intense and visceral. Soundstage becomes more narrow. You get more impact and slam. Good imaging and placement around 360 space but doesn't have same open feeling as the GEC U52. Tube reverb is significant but not as abundant and smooth as with the GEC U52

3 (LCD-4z + GEC U52, Lo Z) 63 mA on meter

Same as with HEDDphone but LCD-4z is already coloured so relatively speaking its not as well balanced as with the pairing with the HEDDphone. Vocals are more intense and full bodied but doesn't have same level of detail retrieval and sense of ease as the SS PSU pairing.

4 (HEDDphone + SS PSU) 66 mA on meter

Same level of technicalities as the LCD-4z + SS PSU, but relatively speaking, lacking harmonic richness and abit on the bland side compared with the other configurations

=5 (LCD-4z + Sophia 274B, Lo Z) 47mA on meter

=5 (HEDDphone + Sophia 274B, Hi Z) 45mA on meter

Sophia 274B provides the most relaxing listening experience. This is your typical lush and slow 300B amp sound. miss out alot on detail retrieval and instrument placement. Soundstage is largest here, but instruments seem to be coming from some distance from some point afar. 'Image-lock' is not very strong here. Treble is very sweet and bass is very thumpy. Mids are good too but nothing as visceral the GEC U52 or the JJ GZ34.

6 (LCD-4z + JJ GZ34, Lo Z) 70mA

Good speed but its too thick for me. Feels abit congested relative to the rest. Impact and slam are on another level but just too much for me at the end of the day

___________________________________

Hopefully this mini-review can be of some use. It can at least highlight the merits and uses of the Dual PSU option, and how it affects the sound. If you have a lot of headphones with various impedances, I think this is a very must have feature.

I feel that the results from the HEDDphone are a applicable for hard to drive HPs like Susvara and 1266. The results from LCD 4z are applicable to more of your sensitive planars like Meze Empyreans/Elites, Final D8000 etc.


----------



## K3cT

@senseitedj So in conclusion you seem to prefer the SS rectification overall?


----------



## senseitedj

K3cT said:


> @senseitedj So in conclusion you seem to prefer the SS rectification overall?



SS with lcd 4z

Tube rectifier with HEDDphone


----------



## UntilThen

Finally swap turntable from Denon DP-47f to Rega RP8 with Apheta mc cartridge. Now I'm satisfied. 7 years of upgrade and head-fi and I'm done. Playing Tangerine Dream 'Out of this world' album. The sound is as the album title says.


----------



## UntilThen

In 2017, I entered the vinyl scene. 2 years after I started head-fi and 6 months after buying Yggdrasil, I bought the Rega RP8. I was pretty sure that was a mistake getting into vinyl because the RP8 sat in the lounge untouched most of the time. Since then I had bought some 300 albums new. They are to be my brave Spartans.   

However, things works in mysterious ways. The RP8 now fits in perfectly with Odyssey and Susvara and those LPs are pops and crackles free. I will say without hesitation that the RP8 sounds better than Yggdrasil. 

So now I spend a lot of my time spinning these LPs and what I'm hearing out of Susvara is unbelievable. Of course Odyssey is responsible for it.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> In 2017, I entered the vinyl scene. 2 years after I started head-fi and 6 months after buying Yggdrasil, I bought the Rega RP8. I was pretty sure that was a mistake getting into vinyl because the RP8 sat in the lounge untouched most of the time. Since then I had bought some 300 albums new. They are to be my brave Spartans.
> 
> However, things works in mysterious ways. The RP8 now fits in perfectly with Odyssey and Susvara and those LPs are pops and crackles free. I will say without hesitation that the RP8 sounds better than Yggdrasil.
> 
> So now I spend a lot of my time spinning these LPs and what I'm hearing out of Susvara is unbelievable. Of course Odyssey is responsible for it.


I got goosebumps just looking at that and the album cover.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I got goosebumps just looking at that and the album cover.



I only discovered Eva Cassidy not that long ago. This is a 4 LPs album and I love her voice ! So many good songs in this album, I get goosebumps listening to her rendition of 'Bridge over troubled waters'.


----------



## normie610

UntilThen said:


> The RP8 now fits in perfectly with Odyssey and Susvara and those LPs are pops and crackles free


I was just gonna ask you this question. The pops and crackles are the things holding me back from getting into turntable for a headphone setup. I’m looking into Rega’s system, perhaps a Planar 8 w/ Apheta 3 MC cartridge, RB880 tonearm and Aria V2 phono stage. Your experience is quite encouraging indeed but definitely not good for my wallet if I decide to take the plunge 😅


----------



## UntilThen

normie610 said:


> I was just gonna ask you this question. The pops and crackles are the things holding me back from getting into turntable for a headphone setup. I’m looking into Rega’s system, perhaps a Planar 8 w/ Apheta 3 MC cartridge, RB880 tonearm and Aria V2 phono stage. Your experience is quite encouraging indeed but definitely not good for my wallet if I decide to take the plunge 😅



When the LPs are new and kept clean, pops and crackles should be non existent or to a minimum. You will have to invest in a Ultrasonic record cleaning machine. You're looking at the newer version of the turntable and cartridge of what I have and they are pricey.   

At the time of buying the RP8, I wanted to get the Rega Aria phono stage but the shop that I went to, had sold out on that unit. The salesman the showed me the Avid Pellar phono stage which is about the same price. I ask him if it's any good. He then led me into the showroom where music was playing from B&W 802 D2 and the turntable was an Avid turntable. Then he pointed out to me the phono stage used. It's the Avid Pellar. The sound emanating from the Diamond speakers were simply gorgeous and I thought to myself that if the Avid phono stage was part of that superb sound, then I will have it ! 

I have never regretted getting the Avid Pellar for the RP8. The clarity is astounding and the resolution superb. Getting hooked on vinyl is a good thing. It's a perfect combination with tube amps. With a headphone as resolving as Susvara, you will hear everything and it's alive ! Nothing is more natural sounding than the analogue format.


----------



## normie610

UntilThen said:


> When the LPs are new and kept clean, pops and crackles should be non existent or to a minimum. You will have to invest in a Ultrasonic record cleaning machine. You're looking at the newer version of the turntable and cartridge of what I have and they are pricey.
> 
> At the time of buying the RP8, I wanted to get the Rega Aria phono stage but the shop that I went to, had sold out on that unit. The salesman the showed me the Avid Pellar phono stage which is about the same price. I ask him if it's any good. He then led me into the showroom where music was playing from B&W 802 D2 and the turntable was an Avid turntable. Then he pointed out to me the phono stage used. It's the Avid Pellar. The sound emanating from the Diamond speakers were simply gorgeous and I thought to myself that if the Avid phono stage was part of that superb sound, then I will have it !
> 
> I have never regretted getting the Avid Pellar for the RP8. The clarity is astounding and the resolution superb. Getting hooked on vinyl is a good thing. It's a perfect combination with tube amps. With a headphone as resolving as Susvara, you will hear everything and it's alive ! Nothing is more natural sounding than the analogue format.


Yes the sound of vinyl always haunts me everytime I listen to my friend’s 2 channel setup 😄 but what if I don’t have the Ultrasonic cleaning machine? Will manual cleaning be sufficient to keep the pops and crackles at a minimum?


----------



## UntilThen

normie610 said:


> Yes the sound of vinyl always haunts me everytime I listen to my friend’s 2 channel setup 😄 but what if I don’t have the Ultrasonic cleaning machine? Will manual cleaning be sufficient to keep the pops and crackles at a minimum?



When you are investing in that Rega turntable and also as your vinyl collection grows, a cleaning machine is a small investment to make. Generally new LPs don't need to be cleaned for a while. I haven't clean mine for a year.


----------



## normie610

UntilThen said:


> When you are investing in that Rega turntable and also as your vinyl collection grows, a cleaning machine is a small investment to make. Generally new LPs don't need to be cleaned for a while. I haven't clean mine for a year.


Hahahaha…..my concern is the availability of the product here in my country 😁

I’ll ask around on that ultrasonic cleaning machine 👍🏼


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I only discovered Eva Cassidy not that long ago. This is a 4 LPs album and I love her voice ! So many good songs in this album, I get goosebumps listening to her rendition of 'Bridge over troubled waters'.


This is one of many...


----------



## Thaddy

UntilThen said:


> I only discovered Eva Cassidy not that long ago. This is a 4 LPs album and I love her voice ! So many good songs in this album, I get goosebumps listening to her rendition of 'Bridge over troubled waters'.


I'm not sure if her _Live at Blues Alley_ album is on vinyl, but I highly recommend picking that up if it is!


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> I'm not sure if her _Live at Blues Alley_ album is on vinyl, but I highly recommend picking that up if it is!



The Nightbird album is that...

_Nightbird is Eva Cassidy’s ultimate tour-de-force...31 songs recorded in one night at the Blues Alley jazz club in Georgetown, DC. Encompassing the full spectrum of Eva’s gospel, blues, jazz and folk roots, Nightbird showcases the breadth and depth of one of the world’s finest singers._


----------



## Thaddy

And this whole time I've been missing out!


----------



## baronbeehive

Thaddy said:


> And this whole time I've been missing out!


Me too! I didn't realize that, I thought it was just another compilation album. Glad she's getting some recognition she deserves.


----------



## paradoxper

senseitedj said:


> So after 25 hours or so of testing with various HP and Rectifier tube /SS PSU combinations, here are my rankings. 300B and 6SN7 tubes are kept constant. I will also state the impedance output as it has significant influence on its dynamics.
> 
> Will also read out what the mA meter says on the amp so everyone can get a feel on how the rectifier tubes changes things. The change from swapping rectifier tubes itself provides more significant difference than listening to different SS amps.
> 
> ...


But what about the Elrogs. 🤣


----------



## senseitedj

paradoxper said:
			
		

> But what about the Elrogs. 🤣



Probably improvement in all areas


----------



## gibosi

senseitedj said:


> Probably improvement in all areas



Which particular Elrogs are you talking about?


----------



## senseitedj (Sep 27, 2022)

gibosi said:


> Which particular Elrogs are you talking about?



I haven't heard them but I think he was referring to the Elrog 300b. Based on the 300b amp thread, it is currently the best 300b tube, superior to the WE. Havent seen much discussion about their rectifiers


----------



## paradoxper (Sep 27, 2022)

senseitedj said:


> I haven't heard them but I think he was referring to the Elrog 300b. Based on the 300b amp thread, it is currently the best 300b tube, superior to the WE. Havent seen much discussion about their rectifiers


Yes, teasing Elrogs are a must. Rectifier discussion will be coming as I roll Elrog quads. @ColSaulTigh really likes the Elrog 5U4G


----------



## UntilThen

Just chilling out and listening to the greatest album of all time and it happens to be the dark side.   You can see the LP is newer than new.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Just chilling out and listening to the greatest album of all time and it happens to be the dark side.   You can see the LP is newer than new.


Damn, for one second I thought I saw Abyss 1266 TC there.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Damn, for one second I thought I saw Abyss 1266 TC there.



How is that Abyss ???


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> How is that Abyss ???


Cheap, look 30 bucks on Classifieds:


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Cheap, look 30 bucks on Classifieds:



Haha. Is that made of plastic?


----------



## UntilThen

That was dark side of the moon. This is the bright side. Tonally what I am hearing is divine. End game stuff !


----------



## normie610

UntilThen said:


> Just chilling out and listening to the greatest album of all time and it happens to be the dark side.   You can see the LP is newer than new.


Do not temp me to the dark side mate! 😅


----------



## UntilThen

normie610 said:


> Do not temp me to the dark side mate! 😅



Ironically I got onto head-fi because my son brought home the Aune T1 one day. It had one tube for the dac section and I was intrigued by it. Ever since then it's mostly about tube amps for me. Everyone tells me then that tune amps are the dark side. Well it ain't so dark now. In fact it's pretty bright here. 

As for vinyl, you need to have the time to appreciate it. These days the convenience of digital makes everyone discard their vinyl setup. However you have to ask Michael Fremer which format he prefers.


----------



## UntilThen

It's a DCS Puccini SACD player vs Brinkmann Balance turntable on one of my fav album Avalon which I don't have.


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> Ironically I got onto head-fi because my son brought home the Aune T1 one day. It had one tube for the dac section and I was intrigued by it. Ever since then it's mostly about tube amps for me. Everyone tells me then that tune amps are the dark side. Well it ain't so dark now. In fact it's pretty bright here.




I got to tube amps in 2013 when I first heard the Studio Six with LCD 3 non fazor. Ever since then tube amps were the gold standard for me. The combo blew my mind.

Tried various tube pre amps back then to mate it with my SS system. Wasn't quite the same Eventually got the WA6 last year and now arrived with the telly today.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> I got to tube amps in 2013 when I first heard the Studio Six with LCD 3 non fazor. Ever since then tube amps were the gold standard for me. The combo blew my mind.
> 
> Tried various tube pre amps back then to mate it with my SS system. Wasn't quite the same Eventually got the WA6 last year and now arrived with the telly today.



Ah I had the Studio Six back then too. With GOTL and Wa22. Then Oblivion came along.


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> Ah I had the Studio Six back then too. With GOTL and Wa22. Then Oblivion came along.



For me I almost got the Formula S, but then I came across a friend's oblivion. Mind blown with Diana v2. The increase in soundstage was phenomenal 

Then I looked at the Ultrasonic Website and decided on the telly because I already had a collection rectifier tubes and wanted to see what the fuss with 300b tubes were all about


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> For me I almost got the Formula S, but then I came across a friend's oblivion. Mind blown with Diana v2. The increase in soundstage was phenomenal
> 
> Then I looked at the Ultrasonic Website and decided on the telly because I already had a collection rectifier tubes and wanted to see what the fuss with 300b tubes were all about



What are your thoughts of Telemachus vs Studio Six?


----------



## Isaacc7

I was fascinated by tubes from a young age. We had an old Dumont TV. One day it stopped working, dad took off the back to reveal a cityscape of tubes. Pulled a few out and we went too the hardware store. They had a self service tube tester with replacement tubes in a cabinet underneath. He found out which tube was bad and our TV worked again, hooray! Also loved my grandmother’s radio, the tubes glowed in the dark. This was probably around 79 or 80. 

My first tube amp was given to me by one of the technicians of my college’s AV department. He was one of those guys that made his own system designed around accurately reproducing train sounds. His old H.H.Scott amp was completely worthless to him so he gave it to me. The first tube amp I ever bought was in 96, a pair of Golden Tube Audio SE40 amps. 6(!) SE 5881 tubes per side, 12 in total. That made for some seriously hot listening sessions! From there I owned a Jolida integrated (6bq5 PP), a one off SE 6bl7, and a pair of Audio Mirror monoblocks using a pair of 6080 tubes in SE. I now own a Dennis Had Inspire KT88 Firebottle and soon will have my Ultrasonic Studios PP amp. Had a few solid state amps and active speakers along the way but always came back to tubes. 

I tried getting into headphones once in 2004. My dealer was selling Sony CD3000 headphones for the absurd price of $450. I scoffed at the idea of spending that much on headphones. Tried them paired with a Minimax tube amp (that thing was tiny!) and was amazed at the sound. Bought the headphones and enjoyed them for a few months but the novelty wore off. As detailed and immediate as the Sonys were they really couldn’t compete with the experience of my speakers which weren’t all that much more expensive. I’ve tried headphones on and off again over the years but never warmed up to the presentation. I might end up getting some AirPod Max for the surround sound capabilities but for now I‘d rather spend that money on tubes lol.


----------



## senseitedj (Sep 29, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> What are your thoughts of Telemachus vs Studio Six?



Based off memory from 2013, there are some similarities between the two. Tried with upgraded tubes from ALO Audio, audeze lcd 2, 3 non fazor. Also with beyer T1 gen 1

Studio 6 I remembered was punchy and fast sounding. had a nice shimmer and sweetness in Treble. Mids was full bodied but not that lush. Had nice punch slam. Background noise slightly grainy. Had alot of SS qualities but made things sound more lifelike 

The tele has alot of those qualities but is softer in leading and trailing edges of notes. Decay is longer and more natural. Leading edge of notes isn't as punchy as studio 6 but that can be fixed with higher end driver tubes. 

Background is more pitch black with tele. Soundstage alot wider, especially in SS mode. Mids are alot more full bodied especially using tube rectifier. Telly can handle wider range of HPs. I experienced some hiss with a few HPs in studio 6.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Based off memory from 2013, there are some similarities between the two. Tried with upgraded tubes from ALO Audio, audeze lcd 2, 3 non fazor. Also with beyer T1 gen 1
> 
> Studio 6 I remembered was punchy and fast sounding. had a nice shimmer and sweetness in Treble. Mids was full bodied but not that lush. Had nice punch slam. Background noise slightly grainy. Had alot of SS qualities but made things sound more lifelike
> 
> ...



My impressions of Oblivion, Studio Six and GOTL. https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/oblivion-amp-by-ultrasonic-studios.24108/reviews

I sold off Studio Six because it wasn't powerful enough for my needs. Also after having Oblivion for a few months, I felt that I didn't need the other 2 anymore. You know, like a one amp is sufficient'' for me kind of thinking.  

2 years after that, I decided to get Tomas to build Odyssey and that was a greenfield project. I latched on to the Berlin tubes idea (Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez) and chose the name because that is my signon name in my local hifi forum.  The Berlin amp was supposed to be built by Glenn but I wasn't ready then and put it off. By the time I was ready (2 years later), I had already gotten to know Tomas well and decided to have him built the amp instead. I'm glad I did because when I saw the first pictures of Odyssey, I was literally stunned. I was even more stunned when I first heard it. That was supposed to be the finale. The last amp !


----------



## UntilThen

The longest headphone that stayed with me since 2017. I don't use HD800 much these days but when I do, I am pleasantly surprised that it sounded great from Odyssey. It has great synergy with Oblivion. I had sold off Verite Open, LCD-3f, LCD4 and He1000se but HD800 has remained. I am not sure why but the longer it stayed with me, the more iconic it becomes.  

It's not perfect but it is what it is.


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> My impressions of Oblivion, Studio Six and GOTL. https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/oblivion-amp-by-ultrasonic-studios.24108/reviews
> 
> I sold off Studio Six because it wasn't powerful enough for my needs. Also after having Oblivion for a few months, I felt that I didn't need the other 2 anymore. You know, like a one amp is sufficient'' for me kind of thinking.
> 
> 2 years after that, I decided to get Tomas to build Odyssey and that was a greenfield project. I latched on to the Berlin tubes idea (Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez) and chose the name because that is my signon name in my local hifi forum.  The Berlin amp was supposed to be built by Glenn but I wasn't ready then and put it off. By the time I was ready (2 years later), I had already gotten to know Tomas well and decided to have him built the amp instead. I'm glad I did because when I saw the first pictures of Odyssey, I was literally stunned. I was even more stunned when I first heard it. That was supposed to be the finale. The last amp !



Yes studio 6 was designed in a different era of HP listening, where over 1W is alot. With the susvaras and 1266s, 1W is not gonna cut it. I can't really recall studio 6 because I listened from 2013. But ur findings on ur review are aligned with mine when I tried oblivion with Diana v2.

Interesting you were one of the drivers for Odyssey. Wish somebody here would order an Odyssey so I can demo it. My guess the Telly would be somewhere between the Oblivion and Odyssey in terms of its tube sound


----------



## baronbeehive (Sep 29, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Ironically I got onto head-fi because my son brought home the Aune T1 one day. It had one tube for the dac section and I was intrigued by it. Ever since then it's mostly about tube amps for me. Everyone tells me then that tune amps are the dark side. Well it ain't so dark now. In fact it's pretty bright here.
> 
> As for vinyl, you need to have the time to appreciate it. These days the convenience of digital makes everyone discard their vinyl setup. However you have to ask Michael Fremer which format he prefers.



Not sure I agree with this, I've heard incredibly lifelike saxophones with the vibrations from the reed coming through realistically, with realistic decay, but if it's mainly distortion that gives lifelike sound it should be possible to get a similar sound by moving the tube operating point into the distortion area of the grid, maybe someone could try that instead of having the operating point at no distortion? Then CD's would sound like vinyl.

Edit: Also if you are listening to a live performance where is the distortion there? It seems he is objecting to clarity which is the real reality. AFAIK all the second order harmonic distortions are present in CD's anyway. There is no reason for them not to be there. So it must be something else about vinyl that he likes. Also there are different digital formats such as PCM or high res which are less "digital" sounding.

It sounds more like an amp problem he is describing.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Yes studio 6 was designed in a different era of HP listening, where over 1W is alot. With the susvaras and 1266s, 1W is not gonna cut it. I can't really recall studio 6 because I listened from 2013. But ur findings on ur review are aligned with mine when I tried oblivion with Diana v2.
> 
> Interesting you were one of the drivers for Odyssey. Wish somebody here would order an Odyssey so I can demo it. My guess the Telly would be somewhere between the Oblivion and Odyssey in terms of its tube sound



That’s what I would expect. That Telemachus sound would be between Oblivion and Odyssey. Guess I will find out in April or May next year and you can fly here to have a listen. 😀


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Not sure I agree with this, I've heard incredibly lifelike saxophones with the vibrations from the reed coming through realistically, with realistic decay, but if it's mainly distortion that gives lifelike sound it should be possible to get a similar sound by moving the tube operating point into the distortion area of the grid, maybe someone could try that instead of having the operating point at no distortion? Then CD's would sound like vinyl.
> 
> Edit: Also if you are listening to a live performance where is the distortion there? It seems he is objecting to clarity which is the real reality. AFAIK all the second order harmonic distortions are present in CD's anyway. There is no reason for them not to be there. So it must be something else about vinyl that he likes. Also there are different digital formats such as PCM or high res which are less "digital" sounding.
> 
> It sounds more like an amp problem he is describing.



Not wanting to start a formal war, Michael Fremer is not a novice and that was conducted in an environment set up by specialists.

It’s hard to explain vinyl. Like tubes, it’s just more natural and pleasant to my ears. There’s no harmonic distortions in vinyl - period.

Guess someone would come up with a reel to reel and proclaim it’s the best.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Not wanting to start a formal war, Michael Fremer is not a novice and that was conducted in an environment set up by specialists.
> 
> It’s hard to explain vinyl. Like tubes, it’s just more natural and pleasant to my ears. There’s no harmonic distortions in vinyl - period.
> 
> Guess someone would come up with a reel to reel and proclaim it’s the best.


I agree it is nice and natural sounding. I think it must be down to the different technologies. Maybe some ears can pick up the discreet changes in the digital sampling rates as against the more analogue vinyl technology. Of course music is analogue. Same reason we like tube amps.


----------



## senseitedj (Sep 30, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> That’s what I would expect. That Telemachus sound would be between Oblivion and Odyssey. Guess I will find out in April or May next year and you can fly here to have a listen. 😀



Sure thing, If you fly here we will introduce you to the Cult of Ultrasonic Indonesia Chapter


----------



## senseitedj

baronbeehive said:


> I agree it is nice and natural sounding. I think it must be down to the different technologies. Maybe some ears can pick up the discreet changes in the digital sampling rates as against the more analogue vinyl technology. Of course music is analogue. Same reason we like tube amps.



Speaking of analogue, have you had experience listening to tape reel? I hear its the ultimate in analogue


----------



## baronbeehive

senseitedj said:


> Speaking of analogue, have you had experience listening to tape reel? I hear its the ultimate in analogue


Ha no! I can see why it's potentially superior to vinyl. I won't be spending a fortune I haven't got on purchasing tapes or equipment though! I get the arguments on naturalness and warmth etc., but I like the convenience, and longevity of CD's and when paired with a good tube amp to put in a touch of warmth I don't really see much reason to change.


----------



## OctavianH

I went more towards the comfort zone: I've encoded all my CD collection to FLAC. Having thousands of albums needs time to organize. And lately, many of them come directly in digital format. I've stored them on SSD on my PC and connected the DAC via USB and a JCAT USB XE card powered externally via an LPS. Sounds fine for me. Of course, we can go to vinyl or tape or whatever, but I am complicating too much my already complicated life and I'll find 1% of my existing collection in that format. LOL


----------



## Isaacc7

senseitedj said:


> Speaking of analogue, have you had experience listening to tape reel? I hear its the ultimate in analogue


Back in the stone ages, I used 1/4” 4 track tape to record my noodling on Moogs in college. Used razor blades and tape for editing, made tape loops with mic stands etc… Never really thought about “quality” of the format other than it was noticeably better than cassette. I didn’t really understand the capabilities of tape until I used a Nagra III for location sound work. 1/4” mono (that’s equivalent to 1/2” stereo if you’re counting at home) on a world class recorder stunned me. I wasn’t doing music recording but the fidelity and sound quality was unlike anything else I had heard until the advent of attainable quality digital recording equipment. 

Analog production and end products are certainly capable of amazing quality as long as you are willing to be meticulous and embrace the limitations of editing. Ever try doing an unsharp mask in a darkroom?

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/unsharp/

Analog prints using that process are stunning but good Lord, who wants to do that? 

The best LP I have ever heard was “The King James Version” by Harry James. It was recorded direct to disk. That means the recording signal went directly from the mixer to the cutting lathe, no tape between the master and the stamping. Amazing. Of course there was no editing possible and the original master wears out faster than a tape would. So yeah, amazing sound but meticulous craftsmanship is required and a reduced pressing is the result. 

Just like darkroom work, you have to meticulous about dust if you’re going to enjoy LPs long term. At least analog prints can be “spotted” to correct dust spots, no such luck with LPs. Once that pop is there, it is there forever. 

I sold off all of my LPs a decade ago. I was tired of schlepping them around in my moves. I was also tired of the constant upkeep of both the records and the stylus to avoid damage. I enjoyed LPs and I enjoy digital now.


----------



## jonathan c

Isaacc7 said:


> Back in the stone ages, I used 1/4” 4 track tape to record my noodling on Moogs in college. Used razor blades and tape for editing, made tape loops with mic stands etc… Never really thought about “quality” of the format other than it was noticeably better than cassette. I didn’t really understand the capabilities of tape until I used a Nagra III for location sound work. 1/4” mono (that’s equivalent to 1/2” stereo if you’re counting at home) on a world class recorder stunned me. I wasn’t doing music recording but the fidelity and sound quality was unlike anything else I had heard until the advent of attainable quality digital recording equipment.
> 
> Analog production and end products are certainly capable of amazing quality as long as you are willing to be meticulous and embrace the limitations of editing. Ever try doing an unsharp mask in a darkroom?
> 
> ...


The Sheffield Labs LPs are wonderful: I especially like the Dave Grusin !


----------



## Isaacc7

@SonicTrance I’ve changed my mind. I want my power supply to be a direct replica of this one. 



Dual 6 anode mercury rectifiers, a power transformer so big it has to be in the basement, and 240 amp max load. I’ll be able to run whatever tube I want! 

This video is amazing though, shows what was needed at the beginning of the electrical era. Also does a great job of showing that vacuum tubes were much more than audio back in the day, they were everything electronic!


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Sure thing, If you fly here we will introduce you to the Cult of Ultrasonic Indonesia Chapter



I just learn that there is a store there that carries the Oblivion amp and ZMF headphones, etc. https://www.beyondthemusicid.com/

So joining this cult, am I free to leave when I want to? Or is it a case of ''You can check in anytime but you can never leave".


----------



## OctavianH

Oh no, you cannot leave, you have to buy every model. I guess you know that.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Just like darkroom work, you have to meticulous about dust if you’re going to enjoy LPs long term. At least analog prints can be “spotted” to correct dust spots, no such luck with LPs. Once that pop is there, it is there forever.



Meticulous is the word. If an LP isn't too dirty, it can be clean with Ultrasonic cleaners to eliminate pops. If it gets too bad, it's time to bin it. Hearing new LPs with a clean stylus is a joy. A capable phono stage is important too. Turntable, cartridge, stylus and phono stage, it's all a package.... and your LPs.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I went more towards the comfort zone: I've encoded all my CD collection to FLAC. Having thousands of albums needs time to organize. And lately, many of them come directly in digital format. I've stored them on SSD on my PC and connected the DAC via USB and a JCAT USB XE card powered externally via an LPS. Sounds fine for me. Of course, we can go to vinyl or tape or whatever, but I am complicating too much my already complicated life and I'll find 1% of my existing collection in that format. LOL



I have what you have too. Music on FLAC files stored on SSD. Also have Tidal and Qobuz. To my aging ears, I can still hear how much better vinyl sound compared to my digital source. But enough of me preaching vinyl. Get back to enjoying your tube amps !


----------



## OctavianH (Sep 30, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> I have what you have too. Music on FLAC files stored on SSD. Also have Tidal and Qobuz. To my aging ears, I can still hear how much better vinyl sound compared to my digital source. But enough of me preaching vinyl. Get back to enjoying your tube amps !


I am fully convinced that you are right, but some of the underground bands I am listening to never released a vinyl album. So, I have to adapt.

Later edit: Do not forget about the JCAT USB XE card, it made a huge improvement on my system.


----------



## audiargent

OctavianH said:


> I went more towards the comfort zone: I've encoded all my CD collection to FLAC. Having thousands of albums needs time to organize. And lately, many of them come directly in digital format. I've stored them on SSD on my PC and connected the DAC via USB and a JCAT USB XE card powered externally via an LPS. Sounds fine for me. Of course, we can go to vinyl or tape or whatever, but I am complicating too much my already complicated life and I'll find 1% of my existing collection in that format. LOL


Remember, SSDs work with charged cells, that over time may dissipate if the drive is not used regularly.

I would suggest you use a "traditional" platter hard drive for archival uses. Transfer speeds though low, are still more than enough to play any quality of FLAC.


----------



## OctavianH

audiargent said:


> Remember, SSDs work with charged cells, that over time may dissipate if the drive is not used regularly.
> 
> I would suggest you use a "traditional" platter hard drive for archival uses. Transfer speeds though low, are still more than enough to play any quality of FLAC.


I have a backup server with normal drives in RAID 10. Thanks.


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> I just learn that there is a store there that carries the Oblivion amp and ZMF headphones, etc. https://www.beyondthemusicid.com/
> 
> So joining this cult, am I free to leave when I want to? Or is it a case of ''You can check in anytime but you can never leave".



That's correct! well spotted. Not sure how they got talking in the first place

it's more like "you can check in anytime but you *don't* want to leave"

You will see a variety of Ultrasonic Amps, ones with the standard config. But most of them have some form of a unique feature. Such as the most recent oblivion that looks like Citadel. Most people here have figured out that Boutique amps are the way to go for end-game.


----------



## senseitedj

baronbeehive said:


> Ha no! I can see why it's potentially superior to vinyl. I won't be spending a fortune I haven't got on purchasing tapes or equipment though! I get the arguments on naturalness and warmth etc., but I like the convenience, and longevity of CD's and when paired with a good tube amp to put in a touch of warmth I don't really see much reason to change.



Yeah convenience is big factor, especially if you live in an apartment. I usually stream using Qobuz - it has actual high-res files and its music suggestion algorithm has really come a long way since last year. It actually suggests songs that are not just of the same genre, but have the same vibe and rhythm when you finish an album.

For the albums I REALLY like I would download them in DSD on HDTracks. I realise this is a huge burden in terms of memory storage and sometimes the DAC can be a bit flaky when playing these large files. The improvements from 192 kHz file is really marginal but I don't mind going the extra mile for more 'special' recordings.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> That's correct! well spotted. Not sure how they got talking in the first place
> 
> it's more like "you can check in anytime but you *don't* want to leave"
> 
> You will see a variety of Ultrasonic Amps, ones with the standard config. But most of them have some form of a unique feature. Such as the most recent oblivion that looks like Citadel. Most people here have figured out that Boutique amps are the way to go for end-game.



You mean there's more than Oblivion there?


----------



## SonicTrance

@Isaacc7 
I usually don't post pics mid build but thought I'd make an exception here. Mainly to show Isaac of course.

This is the push pull version of Odyssey with manual grid bias. The four output sockets are in the back row and driver tubes at the front. Below each output tube socket you have a trimmer to adjust the negative grid voltage. The red measuring terminals is for external voltmeter to read that voltage. There's only one black terminal as it's just ground anyway.
In between each pair of output tubes there's a little toggle switch. Toggle to the left to measure the anode current of the left tube on the mA meter and toggle to the right to see the anode current of the right tube on the meter. 
In the middle there's a panel voltmeter and below it is a trimmer. Here you adjust the B+ (also anode voltage). The range will be around 240V-400V.
The two large toggle switches are for the heaters. Up is 6.3V and down is 12.6V. One switch for driver tube sockets and one for output tube sockets.

Isaac, do you need me to label everything or can I leave it as is? I think the "clean" look would get destroyed as there would be lots of labels lol  

Btw, this is the heaviest amp I've built to date! That Monolith PT is a beast! The amp weighs 26.5kg as it is now even without bottom cover and lots of components missing!


----------



## OctavianH

SonicTrance said:


> @Isaacc7
> I usually don't post pics mid build but thought I'd make an exception here. Mainly to show Isaac of course.


Thank you for doing this, helps a lot in our planning of future amps.


SonicTrance said:


> The four output sockets are in the back row and driver tubes at the front. Below each output tube socket you have a trimmer to adjust the negative grid voltage.


This is exactly what I want on manual bias. To be able to adjust the grid bias / tube. I will include this on my future Citadel build scheduled for 2025.


----------



## UntilThen

A very impressive amp. Can’t wait to see the final result. 😊


----------



## OctavianH

@Isaacc7 is a very experienced customer and he knows exactly what he wants. This is my most expected build because I am fully convinced that he will use it finding a lot of new tube combos. Since all UltraSonic amps have the same pedigree I wait for his amp like "air". I know that this will help me level a lot. 

Good luck @Isaacc7 , looks stunning.


----------



## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> @Isaacc7 is a very experienced customer and he knows exactly what he wants. This is my most expected build because I am fully convinced that he will use it finding a lot of new tube combos. Since all UltraSonic amps have the same pedigree I wait for his amp like "air". I know that this will help me level a lot.
> 
> Good luck @Isaacc7 , looks stunning.


Bear in mind this is mainly a speaker amp with a headphone output. There really is no need for all this power for headphones. Isaac listens mostly through speakers so this makes sense. But yeah, it's a very versatile amp indeed!


----------



## OctavianH

SonicTrance said:


> Bear in mind this is mainly a speaker amp with a headphone output. There really is no need for all this power for headphones. Isaac listens mostly through speakers so this makes sense. But yeah, it's a very versatile amp indeed!


What I want is to be able to use electrically unmatched combos on output and have the same precision as in the manual grid bias. I need fast and precise amps because of my musical preferences, and you are able to do them. I would like to have a Citadel, fully balanced, with manual adjustable output grid bias so I can use a quad of GEC E3375 or GEC ATS25. I have a big collection of outputs but not all of them are electrically matched. I want to use in this Citaldel EL34, ATS25 or E3375 quads.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I just learn that there is a store there that carries the Oblivion amp and ZMF headphones, etc. https://www.beyondthemusicid.com/
> 
> So joining this cult, am I free to leave when I want to? Or is it a case of *''You can check in anytime but you can never leave"*.


Yes... beware... that's dangerous talk 😧.


----------



## OctavianH

baronbeehive said:


> Yes... beware... that's dangerous talk 😧.


Remember that you are @UntilThen and not TheEnd.


----------



## baronbeehive

senseitedj said:


> Yeah convenience is big factor, especially if you live in an apartment. I usually stream using Qobuz - it has actual high-res files and its music suggestion algorithm has really come a long way since last year. It actually suggests songs that are not just of the same genre, but have the same vibe and rhythm when you finish an album.
> 
> For the albums I REALLY like I would download them in DSD on HDTracks. I realise this is a huge burden in terms of memory storage and sometimes the DAC can be a bit flaky when playing these large files. The improvements from 192 kHz file is really marginal but I don't mind going the extra mile for more 'special' recordings.


Yeah, they have a much greater selection on HDTracks nowadays than when I first went there. I still find some high res disappointing though, probably from copying from a poor master.

That algorithm sounds more sensible, the predictive feature is a bugbear of mine, usually nothing like that track you are comparing.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Yes... beware... that's dangerous talk 😧.



I quote it wrongly. From Hotel California.   

_You can check out any time you like
But you can never leave_


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Bear in mind this is mainly a speaker amp with a headphone output. There really is no need for all this power for headphones. Isaac listens mostly through speakers so this makes sense. But yeah, it's a very versatile amp indeed!



What is the rated power for this amp?


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> @Isaacc7
> I usually don't post pics mid build but thought I'd make an exception here. Mainly to show Isaac of course.
> 
> This is the push pull version of Odyssey with manual grid bias. The four output sockets are in the back row and driver tubes at the front. Below each output tube socket you have a trimmer to adjust the negative grid voltage. The red measuring terminals is for external voltmeter to read that voltage. There's only one black terminal as it's just ground anyway.
> ...


Fascinating, lots of switches to play with!!

Adjusting the B+ would act also as a tone control as that would change the tube operating points?


----------



## OctavianH

Tomas, if this is not confidential, I would like you to tell me who is the next Eternity owner.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I quote it wrongly. From Hotel California.
> 
> _You can check out any time you like
> But you can never leave_


Wonderful track and guitar from Joe Walsh. Interesting that the chords in the backing arrangement are identical to Jethro Tull "We Used To Know". I often wondered if they did that deliberately.


----------



## SonicTrance

OctavianH said:


> What I want is to be able to use electrically unmatched combos on output and have the same precision as in the manual grid bias. I need fast and precise amps because of my musical preferences, and you are able to do them. I would like to have a Citadel, fully balanced, with manual adjustable output grid bias so I can use a quad of GEC E3375 or GEC ATS25. I have a big collection of outputs but not all of them are electrically matched. I want to use in this Citaldel EL34, ATS25 or E3375 quads.


If we use grid bias it's no longer a Citadel. The output stage in Citadel is a LTP stage with gyrator plate loads and a CCS tail. The tail has a constant current across it at all times (hence constant current source) and is what finds the proper operating point for the tube.
I guess we can build some sort of hybrid. Should work.



UntilThen said:


> What is the rated power for this amp?


I won't know for sure until testing and it varies heavily with tubes and different operating points of course. But easily 20W+.



baronbeehive said:


> Adjusting the B+ would act also as a tone control as that would change the tube operating points?


Don't about tone control but yes. It's mainly there so he can use tubes that otherwise would burst into flames at 400V on the anode.



OctavianH said:


> Tomas, if this is not confidential, I would like you to tell me who is the next Eternity owner.


He can speak out if he wants to. I actually don't know his nick on the forums.


----------



## OctavianH

SonicTrance said:


> If we use grid bias it's no longer a Citadel. The output stage in Citadel is a LTP stage with gyrator plate loads and a CCS tail. The tail has a constant current across it at all times (hence constant current source) and is what finds the proper operating point for the tube.
> I guess we can build some sort of hybrid. Should work.


I will think about this, I like to have control and set up everything. I have OCD and this helps me organize my things. It helps in my work but also makes me think I over control everything. Yeap guys we are all crazy. LOL


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> I just learn that there is a store there that carries the Oblivion amp and ZMF headphones, etc. https://www.beyondthemusicid.com/
> 
> So joining this cult, am I free to leave when I want to? Or is it a case of ''You can check in anytime but you can never leave".



Very cool!


----------



## whirlwind

SonicTrance said:


> @Isaacc7
> I usually don't post pics mid build but thought I'd make an exception here. Mainly to show Isaac of course.
> 
> This is the push pull version of Odyssey with manual grid bias. The four output sockets are in the back row and driver tubes at the front. Below each output tube socket you have a trimmer to adjust the negative grid voltage. The red measuring terminals is for external voltmeter to read that voltage. There's only one black terminal as it's just ground anyway.
> ...


Killer build sir!


----------



## senseitedj (Oct 1, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> You mean there's more than Oblivion there?



Yep - There are 5 Oblivions and 1 Telemachus in Indonesia so far in 2022. The 1 Telly owner is me.

By 2023 There should be 2 more Oblivions and 2 more Tellies coming, making the total to 7 Oblivions and 3 Tellies. There is possibly 1 more additional telly but he has not fully decided yet.

Also I've tried the 5th oblivion today, the one that looks like a citadel. The performance is sublime as expected.


----------



## senseitedj (Oct 1, 2022)

SonicTrance said:


> @Isaacc7
> I usually don't post pics mid build but thought I'd make an exception here. Mainly to show Isaac of course.
> 
> This is the push pull version of Odyssey with manual grid bias. The four output sockets are in the back row and driver tubes at the front. Below each output tube socket you have a trimmer to adjust the negative grid voltage. The red measuring terminals is for external voltmeter to read that voltage. There's only one black terminal as it's just ground anyway.
> ...


Looking awesome as always Tomas, looks like a beast, especially with those really beefy Transformers


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> 7 years of upgrade and head-fi and I'm done.


Hmmm............


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Now I'm satisfied. 7 years of upgrade and head-fi and I'm done *for this week.*



FTFY.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Yep - There are 5 Oblivions and 1 Telemachus in Indonesia so far in 2022. The 1 Telly owner is me.
> 
> By 2023 There should be 2 more Oblivions and 2 more Tellies coming, making the total to 7 Oblivions and 3 Tellies. There is possibly 1 more additional telly but he has not fully decided yet.
> 
> Also I've tried the 5th oblivion today, the one that looks like a citadel. The performance is sublime as expected.



Wow that's news to me. There's love for Oblivion and Telemachus there. There should be a Odyssey there to complete the picture.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> FTFY.



I'm so glad you surface Bill. I thought you were affected by Hurricane.

Let's just say that I will have one more Telemachus then I will  stop.


----------



## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> @Isaacc7
> I usually don't post pics mid build but thought I'd make an exception here. Mainly to show Isaac of course.
> 
> This is the push pull version of Odyssey with manual grid bias. The four output sockets are in the back row and driver tubes at the front. Below each output tube socket you have a trimmer to adjust the negative grid voltage. The red measuring terminals is for external voltmeter to read that voltage. There's only one black terminal as it's just ground anyway.
> ...


Woo! Love the look! No need for labels, let’s keep it clean. Those are banana ports for reading the voltage right? Those monolithic Magnetics transformers are looking rather like monoliths Lol. Triliths? What does the back look like? That power transformer is big enough it could make sense to have it on a separate chassis. I prefer it all on one though. My preamp has separate chassis for the power supply and it’s a bit of a pain and I’m always worried about the proprietary umbilical cord failing me. You’re further along than I thought you’d be, it’s on the the first of the month!


----------



## Isaacc7

OctavianH said:


> What I want is to be able to use electrically unmatched combos on output and have the same precision as in the manual grid bias. I need fast and precise amps because of my musical preferences, and you are able to do them. I would like to have a Citadel, fully balanced, with manual adjustable output grid bias so I can use a quad of GEC E3375 or GEC ATS25. I have a big collection of outputs but not all of them are electrically matched. I want to use in this Citaldel EL34, ATS25 or E3375 quads.


Yeah, that’s my situation too. When you love vintage tubes you usually can’t get matched sets.


----------



## Isaacc7

OctavianH said:


> @Isaacc7 is a very experienced customer and he knows exactly what he wants. This is my most expected build because I am fully convinced that he will use it finding a lot of new tube combos. Since all UltraSonic amps have the same pedigree I wait for his amp like "air". I know that this will help me level a lot.
> 
> Good luck @Isaacc7 , looks stunning.


Yeah, this is kind of a love letter to tube rolling lol. I fully anticipate this being my last push pull amp.


----------



## OctavianH

Isaacc7 said:


> Yeah, this is kind of a love letter to tube rolling lol. I fully anticipate this being my last push pull amp.


It's a love letter to tube rolling and a suicide letter to your wallet. But you are lucky to use mostly unknown types and this will help you a lot. I will definitely go to the 12.6V path on my next amplifier.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> What is the rated power for this amp?


The OT transformers are rated at 30watts down to something ridiculous like 5hz. In theory they could do a lot more at normal musical frequencies. In the end, the power supply will limit the maximum power. Well, that and my ears lol. While I expect to be able to get something like 30 watts from GU50, KT88 and the like. In reality I really only need a handful of watts And so will never need that much. On the other hand, maybe now I’ll finally have enough power to get a pair of LS3/5A monitors with their 83db sensitivity…


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> Wow that's news to me. There's love for Oblivion and Telemachus there. There should be a Odyssey there to complete the picture.



Yeah, no one has dared to take the plunge for the Odyssey. The oblivion and telly are getting most interest as someone made the first order for everyone else to demo.


----------



## Isaacc7

OctavianH said:


> It's a love letter to tube rolling and a suicide letter to your wallet. But you are lucky to use mostly unknown types and this will help you a lot. I will definitely go to the 12.6V path on my next amplifier.


Luckily(?!) I feel like I’m putting the final touches on my tube collection. And yeah, I have spent an unconscionable amount of money on them. I have so many now… Luckily for me I am addicted to relatively inexpensive tubes, or at least less expensive versions of expensive ones lol. I’m just putting the finishing touches on Mullard, Brimar and Fivre 12sl7 order. These tubes are a prime example of ones I wouldn’t spend the money on the 6v versions. 

I’m also looking forward to trying some lesser known tubes like 6/12av5 and just learned that I can use 2e26 in triode on this amp! What’s a few more adapters lol.


----------



## Isaacc7

OctavianH said:


> It's a love letter to tube rolling and a suicide letter to your wallet. But you are lucky to use mostly unknown types and this will help you a lot. I will definitely go to the 12.6V path on my next amplifier.


Plus, I feel a moral obligation to leave the best kt88, el34, and 6l6gc for guitar players


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> The OT transformers are rated at 30watts down to something ridiculous like 5hz. In theory they could do a lot more at normal musical frequencies. In the end, the power supply will limit the maximum power. Well, that and my ears lol. While I expect to be able to get something like 30 watts from GU50, KT88 and the like. In reality I really only need a handful of watts And so will never need that much. On the other hand, maybe now I’ll finally have enough power to get a pair of LS3/5A monitors with their 83db sensitivity…



Depends on how loud you listen but Oblivion and Odyssey are driving my Axis Voicebox S (5 ohms and 83dB) in nearfield listening. Would love to try efficient Ascension speakers one day though.

https://www.adelaidespeakers.com/


----------



## OctavianH

Isaacc7 said:


> Plus, I feel a moral obligation to leave the best kt88, el34, and 6l6gc for guitar players


One of the reasons I started to love these were the guitar players but I care only about mr. Tony Iommi. If he writes me he needs a pair of tubes I'll help him, otherwise... LOL


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Yeah, no one has dared to take the plunge for the Odyssey. The oblivion and telly are getting most interest as someone made the first order for everyone else to demo.



You're missing out on the best sounding SET amp imho. My friend who has heard it several times agree. The way Susvara sound from Odyssey is perfect. I wouldn't change a thing. 



Isaacc7 said:


> Plus, I feel a moral obligation to leave the best kt88, el34, and 6l6gc for guitar players



I'm more important than guitar players.  The reason Odyssey sound so special is because of the NOS tubes I've collected. I won't spend on tubes in this manner again. Listening to the Philips Miniwatts EL34 metal base now and they are sinfully good.

They are shown here. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/tube-rolling-thread-ultrasonic-studios.953317/post-17172783


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> You're missing out on the best sounding SET amp imho. My friend who has heard it several times agree. The way Susvara sound from Odyssey is perfect. I wouldn't change a thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No question, you have the best that ever was in your collection. On the other hand, since I don't need the power I feel like mining the lower power tubes can result in excellent sound. One of the advantages of push pull is that I can use tubes like the 6aq5 or maybe even kt61 and still have enough power.


----------



## senseitedj (Oct 1, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> You're missing out on the best sounding SET amp imho. My friend who has heard it several times agree. The way Susvara sound from Odyssey is perfect. I wouldn't change a thing.



Yeah it's just a minor case of the herd mentality here. But you're not wrong, the Sus does benefit from the extra tube colouration based on experimenting with Tube vs. SS PSU. The Odyssey would provide more of that tube magic that can make the Sus sound very special.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Yeah it's just a minor case of the herd mentality here. But you're not wrong, the Sus does benefit from the extra tube colouration based on experimenting with Tube vs. SS PSU. The Odyssey would provide more of that tube magic that can make the Sus sound very special.



The 64 million question is, how will Susvara sound from Telemachus. An expensive way to find out by getting the amp. I could have just flown to your home.

Do me a favor. Try out Susvara with Telemachus and let me know what you think.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> No question, you have the best that ever was in your collection. On the other hand, since I don't need the power I feel like mining the lower power tubes can result in excellent sound. One of the advantages of push pull is that I can use tubes like the 6aq5 or maybe even kt61 and still have enough power.



A quad of GU50 would be interesting in your amp.


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> The 64 million question is, how will Susvara sound from Telemachus. An expensive way to find out by getting the amp. I could have just flown to your home.
> 
> Do me a favor. Try out Susvara with Telemachus and let me know what you think.



I'm not familiar with the headphone enough to answer the question. @TheMiddleSky spent some time with tele + susvara before I arrived. Perhaps he can weigh in.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> A quad of GU50 would be interesting in your amp.


Already have them


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Already have them



It's called the poor man's 300b-xls. https://www.jacmusic.com/techcorner/ARTICLES/English/Portraits/GM50/index-GM50-Portraits.html


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> It's called the poor man's 300b-xls. https://www.jacmusic.com/techcorner/ARTICLES/English/Portraits/GM50/index-GM50-Portraits.html


Poor?  More like _destitute_ if you have to resort to a pentode.   🤣


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Poor?  More like _destitute_ if you have to resort to a pentode.   🤣



 

Btw the EL156 is also claim to be 300b similar.


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> Let's just say that I will have one more Telemachus then I will stop.


Hmmm...


----------



## triod750

Isaacc7 said:


> On the other hand, maybe now I’ll finally have enough power to get a pair of LS3/5A monitors with their 83db sensitivity…


Oh yes! They can be wonderful. First step on my road to..... 
The dual Rogers subwoofers were bad though. Bad idea.


----------



## UntilThen

Would a black Telemachus be a good idea?


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> Would a black Telemachus be a good idea?



Audio-gd style chassis ? Like a previous Odyssey


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Audio-gd style chassis ? Like a previous Odyssey



No. More like the black Infinity but with Monolith transformers. Still thinking it through and asking Tomas.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright I've discard the idea of a black Telemachus because I think the silver chassis will look great with the Monolith transformers.


----------



## K3cT

Do you guys end up using output impedance switch in your builds?


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> Plus, I feel a moral obligation to leave the best kt88, el34, and 6l6gc for guitar players


Quite right too 👍.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Depends on how loud you listen but Oblivion and Odyssey are driving my Axis Voicebox S (5 ohms and 83dB) in nearfield listening. Would love to try efficient Ascension speakers one day though.
> 
> https://www.adelaidespeakers.com/


Yeah, and my 87db speakers work absolutely fine with 3.5w. Loud as you want in medium size room, I hardly ever go past 11 oclock.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Let's just say that I will have one more Telemachus then I will  *stop saying I will stop*.


FTFY 🤣.


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> Luckily(?!) I feel like I’m putting the final touches on my tube collection. And yeah, I have spent an unconscionable amount of money on them. I have so many now… Luckily for me I am addicted to relatively inexpensive tubes, or at least less expensive versions of expensive ones lol. I’m just putting the finishing touches on Mullard, Brimar and Fivre 12sl7 order. These tubes are a prime example of ones I wouldn’t spend the money on the 6v versions.
> 
> *I’m also looking forward to trying some lesser known tubes* like 6/12av5 and just learned that I can use 2e26 in triode on this amp! What’s a few more adapters lol.


This is the way to go with all the usual types values all skyrocketting. There must be many off piste that haven't been looked at by the herd. I'm sure many in the know are secretly congratulating themselves on their obscure finds costing pennies instead of hundreds of pounds/dollars.


----------



## senseitedj

K3cT said:


> Do you guys end up using output impedance switch in your builds?



I did, with 3 Stages


----------



## Thaddy

senseitedj said:


> Yeah, no one has dared to take the plunge for the Odyssey. The oblivion and telly are getting most interest as someone made the first order for everyone else to demo.


I have an Odyssey in the queue for January 2023. Can’t wait!


----------



## triod750

Thaddy said:


> I have an Odyssey in the queue for January 2023. Can’t wait!


Any special features?


----------



## Isaacc7

baronbeehive said:


> This is the way to go with all the usual types values all skyrocketting. There must be many off piste that haven't been looked at by the herd. I'm sure many in the know are secretly congratulating themselves on their obscure finds costing pennies instead of hundreds of pounds/dollars.


I think the best values are the tubes that were left behind in the quest for ever more power. The classic in that regard is the 300b. It was a super obscure, antique tube all the way into the mid 90s until Dennis Had released his Cary 300b amp. Well, I say obscure, it was forgotten about in the US but the Japanese loved it. A large percentage of 300b and practically all the older 300a tubes ended up in Japan before the Americans caught on. 

Of course those aren’t inexpensive tubes but I think the concept still holds true with pentodes/tetrodes/whatever. Guitarists and hifi manufacturers were always after more power. As manufacturers brought out things like the KT88, 6550, and 6l6gc the older 6l6, 6l6g, ga, and to a lesser extent the gb were pretty much forgotten about. They are still readily avilible and reasonably priced though starting to rise. The 807 and gbg6 are even less expensive versions of those older tubes. 

The other ways to find deals is to use other heater voltages. I love my 12v tubes! I also have an 11n7 that has promise and I might explore the old British 4v tubes in the future. 

So yeah, I’m not congratulating myself overly secretly lol. I’m getting amazing sound without having to spend a lot on any particular tube. Though they do add up lol.


----------



## Thaddy

triod750 said:


> Any special features?


Nothing super special besides the high quality parts Tomas always uses, and it will have single 5U4 rectification with dual 6550/EL34 power and 6SN7 preamp tubes.  It should be a real looker with the VU meters and black chassis


----------



## jonathan c

Thaddy said:


> Nothing super special besides the high quality parts Tomas always uses, and it will have single 5U4 rectification with dual 6550/EL34 power and 6SN7 preamp tubes.  It should be a real looker** with the VU meters and black chassis


** Is there a Tomas amp that isn’t?


----------



## TheMiddleSky (Oct 3, 2022)

senseitedj said:


> I'm not familiar with the headphone enough to answer the question. @TheMiddleSky spent some time with tele + susvara before I arrived. Perhaps he can weigh in.





UntilThen said:


> The 64 million question is, how will Susvara sound from Telemachus. An expensive way to find out by getting the amp. I could have just flown to your home.
> 
> Do me a favor. Try out Susvara with Telemachus and let me know what you think.



Well personally I'm not big fans of Susvara, so perhaps type of sound that I chase may not same as you. Use Chord TT2 and Mola Mola Tambaqui as DAC, feed Telemachus, to Susvara.

Susvara is kind of bright, airy, sweet, and spacious soundstage. All of these attributes are still there. There are some softness in impact/bite of hifiman's house sound that also, still there. With Solid State Rectifier, Mola-Mola is easily my choice as this DAC provide better control, fuller and denser sound through all spectrum, even though not as wide as TT2.

Personally, I would only purchase Telemachus for Susvara, if it comes with Tube Rectifier. Soundstage is slight narrower compared to SS Rectifier, but the additional weight, density, and smoothness to the sound really impressed me (especially how organic is at the Midrange area). 

For my own headphones (Meze Elite and ZMF Verite), I think I prefer the SS Rectifier, but for Susvara, it is the opposite.

Telemachus easily beats out some solid state amplifiers such as Formula S/Powerman, Ferrum Oor/Hypsos and Burson GT/Supercharger when drive Susvara. The overall weight, the spacious of soundstage, the clean notes in all spectrum, and the natural organic presentation of Tele is some levels above.


----------



## audiargent

K3cT said:


> Do you guys end up using output impedance switch in your builds?


I definitely use it for the HE-6SE. Like that I get around 9W into 60 ohms in ultralinear.


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> Well personally I'm not big fans of Susvara, so perhaps type of sound that I chase may not same as you. Use Chord TT2 and Mola Mola Tambaqui as DAC, feed Telemachus, tp Susvara.
> 
> Susvara is kind of bright, airy, sweet, and spacious soundstage. All of these attributes are still there. There are some softness in impact/bite of hifiman's sound sound that also, still there. With Solid State Rectifier, Mola-Mola is easily my choice as this DAC provide better control, fuller and denser sound through all spectrum, even though not as wide as TT2.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the feedback and I can appreciate that everyone has preferences. I like the HiFiMan's sound as evidence from my journey with Arya, He1000se and Susvara. Variety is good though and that's why I had been through most of Audeze's range and some ZMF. As funds permits, there could be another headphone later but I'm pretty contend with living with Susvara now.

It's also my preference to use tube amps with Susvara, particularly Odyssey where the texture fills out. However not everyone thinks so. Many in the Susvara thread still thinks that solid state amps is perfect for Susvara. To everyone their own I guess.

First time I heard about Mola-Mola dac. A quick google shows it's a giant ocean fish.  It's a AUD$18,450 price tag from Netherlands.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> I think the best values are the tubes that were left behind in the quest for ever more power. The classic in that regard is the 300b. It was a super obscure, antique tube all the way into the mid 90s until Dennis Had released his Cary 300b amp. Well, I say obscure, it was forgotten about in the US but the Japanese loved it. A large percentage of 300b and practically all the older 300a tubes ended up in Japan before the Americans caught on.
> 
> Of course those aren’t inexpensive tubes but I think the concept still holds true with pentodes/tetrodes/whatever. Guitarists and hifi manufacturers were always after more power. As manufacturers brought out things like the KT88, 6550, and 6l6gc the older 6l6, 6l6g, ga, and to a lesser extent the gb were pretty much forgotten about. They are still readily avilible and reasonably priced though starting to rise. The 807 and gbg6 are even less expensive versions of those older tubes.
> 
> ...



I had my time with 6.3v, 12.6v and 25.2v with GOTL for the drivers. 6bx7 and 6336 tubes provides interesting variations on that amp, besides 6as7g, 6080 and 5998.

Not forgetting c3g.

It's interesting to experience these tubes to get an idea of their sonics.

My venture into pentodes started with the Elekit 8200. That's when I started thinking of a custom amp for pentodes as strapped triodes.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> I had my time with 6.3v, 12.6v and 25.2v with GOTL for the drivers. 6bx7 and 6336 tubes provides interesting variations on that amp, besides 6as7g, 6080 and 5998.
> 
> Not forgetting c3g.
> 
> ...


I’ve been listening to all of the tubes I talk about as single ended pentodes. Pentode operation can be a little trickier to design/build for. You really need regulated screen supplies and have your feedback game on point. Judicious use of local, global, cathode, whatever feedback is necessary and isn’t the easiest thing to design. When done properly pentode operation sounds great. Feedback isn’t a bugaboo, most amplifiers can benefit from at least some. Local feedback (feedback done to the tube without involving the entire output stage) is generally seen as less problematic than global feedback. Strapping pentodes as triodes can be seen as 100% local feedback and ultra linear is some percentage, usually 40%. 

My new amp will run the tubes in either triode or ultra linear. Not all tubes can/should be run in ultra linear so it‘s important to do your homework before flipping that switch. It’ll be interesting to see how much or if the characteristics of the tubes changes when run as a triode.


----------



## senseitedj

Isaacc7 said:


> I’ve been listening to all of the tubes I talk about as single ended pentodes. Pentode operation can be a little trickier to design/build for. You really need regulated screen supplies and have your feedback game on point. Judicious use of local, global, cathode, whatever feedback is necessary and isn’t the easiest thing to design. When done properly pentode operation sounds great. Feedback isn’t a bugaboo, most amplifiers can benefit from at least some. Local feedback (feedback done to the tube without involving the entire output stage) is generally seen as less problematic than global feedback. Strapping pentodes as triodes can be seen as 100% local feedback and ultra linear is some percentage, usually 40%.
> 
> My new amp will run the tubes in either triode or ultra linear. Not all tubes can/should be run in ultra linear so it‘s important to do your homework before flipping that switch. It’ll be interesting to see how much or if the characteristics of the tubes changes when run as a triode.



This is a rather noob question, but how do you tell from inspecting the tube's datasheet that its suitable to be run as triode/ultra linear?


----------



## gibosi

senseitedj said:


> This is a rather noob question, but how do you tell from inspecting the tube's datasheet that its suitable to be run as triode/ultra linear?



If you see a mu reading on the datasheet, then triode strapping was likely considered in the design. In the end, strapping it yourself and then listening is probably the best way.


----------



## Isaacc7 (Oct 3, 2022)

senseitedj said:


> This is a rather noob question, but how do you tell from inspecting the tube's datasheet that its suitable to be run as triode/ultra linear?


Technically I guess any pentode/tetrode *could* be run in ultra linear but some just don’t make any sense. When you run a tube in pentode mode the screen grid receives a constant voltage. Ultra linear applies a percentage (usually 40%) of the output voltage on to the screen via the output transformer. You can think of it as a variable/partial triode mode. More modern tubes designed around audio like the el34, 6l6gc, and kt88 have pretty robust screen grids so if you run them at the recommended plate voltages the screens can handle the subsequent voltage. Check out the data sheet fore the 6l6gc:

http://www.tubebooks.org/tubedata/HB-3/Receiving_Tubes_Part_2/6L6-GC.PDF

PP class A1 max ratings are 500v on the plate and a whopping 450v on the screen. Compare that to the 6dq6:

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/093/6/6DQ6B.pdf

While the plate can handle an absurd amount of power (it’s hard to know what to use for audio since it was not designed for it) the screen can only handle 150v. If you wanted to try this in ultra linear you’d have to keep the plate voltage down so that 40% wouldn’t be more than 150v. Not much point in using this tube that way if you’re going to gimp the tube like that.

Incidentally, running a tube in triode still requires you to pay attention to the screen grid max voltages. “Strapping” a pentode into a triode usually means connecting the anode and screen grid together so there are now only 3 electrical grids in the tube. Since the voltage is shared between the plate and screen you can usually apply more than you could to just the screen but that varies wildly from tube to tube. For reasons I don’t understand, some screen grids are “greedy” and will soak up more voltage than others. So for example the 6aq5 could be run at 285v in triode (though I’m not sure I trust that) vs. a max of 250v on the screen as a pentode. Apparently you can run a 2e26 at 300v in triode despite the 200v max on the screen with normal operation.

Edit: just cleaned up some typos and hilarious autocorrect issues


----------



## Isaacc7

gibosi said:


> If you see a mu reading on the datasheet, then triode strapping was likely considered in the design. In the end, strapping it yourself and then listening is probably the best way.


All tubes have a mu (amplification) specification. Best to heed the screen limits. If you have to ask if the tube can be run as a triode and at what voltage and you can’t find info from people that have done it before odds are you shouldn’t be trying it. If you want to try anyway, start at the screen grid voltage and slowly ramp up the voltage. Hopefully you have a clear glass tube so you can see if the screen and/or plate start glowing before it’s too late.


----------



## jonathan c

Isaacc7 said:


> All tubes have a mu (amplification) specification. Best to heed the screen limits. If you have to ask if the tube can be run as a triode and at what voltage and you can’t find info from people that have done it before odds are you shouldn’t be trying it. If you want to try anyway, start at the screen grid voltage and slowly ramp up the voltage. Hopefully you have a clear glass tube so you can see if the screen and/or plate start glowing *before it’s too late.*


…from this     


             to this…


----------



## gibosi

Isaacc7 said:


> All tubes have a mu (amplification) specification. Best to heed the screen limits. If you have to ask if the tube can be run as a triode and at what voltage and you can’t find info from people that have done it before odds are you shouldn’t be trying it. If you want to try anyway, start at the screen grid voltage and slowly ramp up the voltage. Hopefully you have a clear glass tube so you can see if the screen and/or plate start glowing before it’s too late.



Yes, of course all tubes have a mu specification. But not all datasheets provide this value. For example, the C3g datasheet provides this value and the recommended strapping practice. That tube was designed to perform very well as a triode-strapped pentode. On the other hand, none of the 6AK5 datasheets I have seen provide this value. And yet, the inexpensive Little Dots were designed around the triode-strapped 6AK5. Further, a bunch of us strapped many similar small 7-pin pentodes, as drivers, with no adverse affects.

But obviously, if you are thinking about strapping power pentodes as output tubes, it is best to follow Isaacc7's advice.


----------



## UntilThen

My tubes for Odyssey are :-

KT88, EL34, 6550, KT66, EL12 spez, 807, EL39, KT77, EL156.

They are all safe to run as triode strapped pentodes. I don't need anymore. I have tubes coming out of my ears.

My drivers are either 6SL7 or EL11. On the advice of Tomas, I only switch to UL for EL11. There's also a feedback switch which make UL quieter. I don't use UL mode much because the power in Odyssey from triode mode is sufficient to drive Susvara well. Triode mode is also sweeter sounding to my ears.

Someday I might buy a pair of KT150 or KT170 but I do not feel like chasing tubes anymore.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> My tubes for Odyssey are :-
> 
> KT88, EL34, 6550, KT66, EL12 spez, 807, EL39, KT77, EL156.
> 
> ...


Curious if you've ever tried 6V6 in driver position, some wonderful 6V6G and GT are out there and still affordable...


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Curious if you've ever tried 6V6 in driver position, some wonderful 6V6G and GT are out there and still affordable...



Nope. I have very specific instructions from Tomas about what tubes I can use and 6v6 is not one of them. Those are power tubes I use in Studio Six.   Incidentally I still have a pair of Fivre 6v6 coke bottle shape. Not sure what I'm going to do with those tubes now.


----------



## Isaacc7

LoryWiv said:


> Curious if you've ever tried 6V6 in driver position, some wonderful 6V6G and GT are out there and still affordable...


Odyssey requires triodes for input tubes. The 6v6 is a pentode. In theory you could triode strap them and use a pair for each side as long as the power supply could handle it. But that’s a lot of fuss. Especially when it is so much easier to use great sounding twin triodes. 

I have seen preamps that use triode strapped 6v6 as their tubes. If you are going to go down that path also look at the 6aq5. They are the same as a6v6 but in a smaller bottle. They are slightly downrated for power but they sound amazing and are even cheaper than the 6v6


----------



## LoryWiv (Oct 5, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> Odyssey requires triodes for input tubes. The 6v6 is a pentode. In theory you could triode strap them and use a pair for each side as long as the power supply could handle it. But that’s a lot of fuss. Especially when it is so much easier to use great sounding twin triodes.
> 
> I have seen preamps that use triode strapped 6v6 as their tubes. If you are going to go down that path also look at the 6aq5. They are the same as a6v6 but in a smaller bottle. They are slightly downrated for power but they sound amazing and are even cheaper than the 6v6


Very helpful, thanks @Isaacc7. In Feliks Euforia AE triode strapped pentodes wok beautifully in both driver and power position, with appropriate adapters. I think that may be unique to Felik's circuit design, although I am no expert, and may differ on that basis from Odyssey's compatibilities. I will study up on 6aq5, although I am rather partial to the aesthetics of the shouldered 6V6G. Here are Brimar 6V6G's driving Ken-Rad 6Y6G's:


----------



## Isaacc7

LoryWiv said:


> Very helpful, thanks @Isaacc7. In Feliks Euforia AE triode strapped pentodes wok beautifully in both driver and power position, with appropriate adapters. I think that may be unique to Felik's circuit design, although I am no expert, and may differ on that basis from Odyssey's compatibilities. I will study up on 6aq5, although I am rather partial to the aesthetics of the shouldered 6V6G. Here are Brimar 6V6G's driving Ken-Rad 6Y6G's:


Well sure, the 6v6g will always win a beauty contest against a 9 pin tube lol. On the other hand I can actually afford the Mullard, Telefunken, and Brimar 6aq5


----------



## triod750

Isaacc7 said:


> Well sure, the 6v6g will always win a beauty contest against a 9 pin tube lol. On the other hand I can actually afford the Mullard, Telefunken, and Brimar 6aq5


What about LM Ericsson 6AQ5?


----------



## OctavianH (Oct 5, 2022)

LoryWiv said:


> Very helpful, thanks @Isaacc7. In Feliks Euforia AE triode strapped pentodes wok beautifully in both driver and power position, with appropriate adapters. I think that may be unique to Felik's circuit design, although I am no expert, and may differ on that basis from Odyssey's compatibilities. I will study up on 6aq5, although I am rather partial to the aesthetics of the shouldered 6V6G. Here are Brimar 6V6G's driving Ken-Rad 6Y6G's:


Triode strapped pentodes work also on UltraSonic amplifiers but it depents if you need a dual or single adapter. I used for example EL3N in input in both ways, via 6SN7 or 6J5 slots and like them a lot. They sound more precise and crisp than I was able to hear them on Elise. But the limiting factor in my case is the trimmer for manual grid bias. It can provide me a maximum of -13V and many of the other output designed pentodes/tetrodes need more than this for only 4mA. For example, if I remember correctly, 6V6 was around -17V.

Here you can see EL3N with KT88.





The other Eternity model has a bigger trimmer, so it can accomodate more types from these. But as I said, remember that these do not sound exactly the same as on F.A. amps. In my case it was an improvement, because on Elise I always found EL3N a little bit "muddy" and imprecise. Here, it's a charm.


----------



## Isaacc7

triod750 said:


> What about LM Ericsson 6AQ5?


Not familiar with that one but sure, why not? The more the merrier!


----------



## audiargent

Got myself some new drivers and rectifiers from LinLai... Will post impressions tomorrow if I get some listening time.


----------



## UntilThen

Black Odyssey is a stunning looking amp.


----------



## UntilThen

My Ice Station Zebra.


----------



## DecentLevi (Oct 16, 2022)

baronbeehive said:


> Ha no! I can see why it's potentially superior to vinyl. I won't be spending a fortune I haven't got on purchasing tapes or equipment though! I get the arguments on naturalness and warmth etc., but I like the convenience, and longevity of CD's and when paired with a good tube amp to put in a touch of warmth I don't really see much reason to change.


All original masters up until around the late 90's were done on high speed reel-to-reel - that is, basically every recording of the 1920's - 90's were recorded this way in the studio before transfer to vinyl, then later to CD, etc. so YES to say it's _potentially _superior to anything would be an understatement. Such a system is my ultimate goal as a source.

Also to add my 2c to a previous format war - I believe than any reason for vinyl being 'superior' to CD has only to do with the fact that this format is more likely to be derived from an originally analogue source that was never digital (save for new records that source from digital files that were mastered on a PC's DAW). So any format could sound better or worse, depending on how well the mastering is and how analogue it is. CDs OTOH rely heavily also on the quality of the AD converter which is the digitization process.


----------



## baronbeehive (Oct 16, 2022)

DecentLevi said:


> All original masters up until around the late 90's were done on high speed reel-to-reel - that is, basically every recording of the 1920's - 90's were recorded this way in the studio before transfer to vinyl, then later to CD, etc. so YES to say it's _potentially _superior to anything would be an understatement. Such a system is my ultimate goal as a source.
> 
> Also to add my 2c to a previous format war - I believe than any reason for vinyl being 'superior' to CD has only to do with the fact that this format is more likely to be derived from an originally analogue source that was never digital (save for new records that source from digital files that were mastered on a PC's DAW). So any format could sound better or worse, depending on how well the mastering is and how analogue it is. CDs OTOH rely heavily also on the quality of the DA converter which is the digitization process.


Agreed, mastering, and production... *and* playback... is the key, not vinyl or CD! I still don't believe vinyl sounds better, it is just different and some prefer that sound, I still prefer the clarity of CD's. I also don't believe that anyone can hear the digital frequency sampling that goes on at 44.1khz or more, that is 44.1 *thousand times per second*.

Another bugbear of mine is high res, I have heard great sounding CD's, and indeed sometimes even MP3, all down to the production quality! Also can people really hear at >20khz and <20hz? CD's cover that range of frequencies and also cancel  out any noise which may still be present in analogue to give that warm sound that analogue lovers like.  Well mastered and produced CD's sound as good as high res. So I remain sceptical of all this.


----------



## UntilThen

For the record, I never said vinyl has better resolution than digital. I said it sounded better. more natural and all die hard vinyl fans will agree with me. It's the same comparison of tube amps vs solid states. 

Differences of opinions there will be and I will leave it at that.


----------



## UntilThen

You have to agree this is beautiful.


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## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> You have to agree this is beautiful.


Indeed! 🙂.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> For the record, I never said vinyl has better resolution than digital. I said it sounded better. more natural and all die hard vinyl fans will agree with me. It's the same comparison of tube amps vs solid states.
> 
> Differences of opinions there will be and I will leave it at that.


Haha!!! Naming no names, I was mainly annoyed with these people on youTube who state categorically that one thing is better than another. I prefer to go by the evidence. I have nothing at all against people liking one thing more than another 😉.


----------



## UntilThen

Of course I listen to everything. Who hasn't heard of Miles Davis Kind of Blue.   There's a lively feel when I listen to this on Susvara.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Haha!!! Naming no names, I was mainly annoyed with these people on youTube who state categorically that one thing is better than another. I prefer to go by the evidence. I have nothing at all against people liking one thing more than another 😉.


And I'll just throw this out here:  IME, it ultimately comes down to the particular recording.  I have some LP's that sound way better than any digital format of the song/album I've heard, and I have some CD's that sound way better than the LP recording(s) I have.  I listen to whichever recording sounds best without fretting about which format is in play.  I will say, however, that a bad LP recording is preferable to a bad CD recording.  The first is just flat/boring, while the second one can be painful.


----------



## JazzVinyl

bcowen said:


> And I'll just throw this out here:  IME, it ultimately comes down to the particular recording.  I have some LP's that sound way better than any digital format of the song/album I've heard, and I have some CD's that sound way better than the LP recording(s) I have.  I listen to whichever recording sounds best without fretting about which format is in play.  I will say, however, that a bad LP recording is preferable to a bad CD recording.  The first is just flat/boring, while the second one can be painful.



^^^ This is 100% fact.  The mastering of the music (for either format) makes ALL the difference.


----------



## senseitedj

Telemachus on night ops...


----------



## UntilThen

For those of you with ZMF headphones, you can share your experience with Ultrasonic amps here.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-un-official-amp-thread-for-zmf-headphones.965309/post-17197242


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## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> And I'll just throw this out here:  IME, it ultimately comes down to the particular recording.  I have some LP's that sound way better than any digital format of the song/album I've heard, and I have some CD's that sound way better than the LP recording(s) I have.  I listen to whichever recording sounds best without fretting about which format is in play.  I will say, however, that a bad LP recording is preferable to a bad CD recording.  The first is just flat/boring, while the second one can be painful.



This has been hashed and rehashed so many times, it's common knowledge but my question is, why would you still be keeping a poorly recorded LP or CD? It goes into the bin or use as coasters.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> This has been hashed and rehashed so many times, it's common knowledge but my question is, why would you still be keeping a poorly recorded LP or CD? It goes into the bin or use as coasters.


Sorry, my fault for airing my prejudices on this thread, must try to keep quiet in future 😩.


----------



## Thaddy

audiargent said:


> Got myself some new drivers and rectifiers from LinLai... Will post impressions tomorrow if I get some listening time.


How are you liking your Odyssey so far?  I'm getting closer and closer to my build month and love seeing pictures of yours.


----------



## Isaacc7 (Oct 18, 2022)

Posted this over on the pentode thread but figured I put it here too just so @SonicTrance knows what a psycho he’s actually dealing with

I’m a sick, sick man. My new Ultrasonic Studios amp hasn’t gotten here yet (soon though!) and I have been planning my next amp already. Basically I want a version of what I have right now, a single ended pentode amp. The Dennis Had Inspire KT88 Firebottle is a remarkable amp. Single ended pentode with auto bias and by changing rectifier tubes you can use output tubes ranging from 6f6 up to kt88. Power output ranges from 3ish watts up to a whopping 10 or so. I want the same amp but designed around lower power tubes like the kt61, 6aq5, etc. that max out around 250v. To help get around the low power I would want it to be a parallel single ended with two or three(!) tubes per side. Of course I would want switchable, or even better variable, heater voltages. And if I’m greedy I would like to switch between ultra linear and pentode. What the hell, why have a cheap output transformer?


The thing is, single ended pentode amplifiers are tricker to design than triode. You need to have regulated screen supplies. And while feedback is optional with triode amps, it is essential with pentode ones. There are many different kinds of feedback; local, global, cathode, Schade, etc. Some of those require careful pairing with the output transformer. Getting out of the engineering mindset and into the artistic one is a rare skill for amp designers but it is a necessary one when it comes to balancing feedback schemes. Dennis Had (he’s the one that founded Cary amps and is responsible for the popularity of single ended amps in the US IMO) has the formula nailed. Not only do his amps sound amazing, they sound amazing with a variety of tubes. The trouble is I don’t think I can convince him to build to my specs. And even if I could I’m not sure I could afford it lol. 

Anyway, yeah, the thought has crossed my mind lol.


----------



## audiargent

Thaddy said:


> How are you liking your Odyssey so far?  I'm getting closer and closer to my build month and love seeing pictures of yours.


I really enjoy it. As I said, mainly for insensitive headphones. Especially if you are listening to classical for the low passages.

Base, is changed radically, in presence and amount. 

For classical I like triode, acoustic the same. Rock ultralinear. Also from 6SL7 to 6SN7 there is a change. 6SL7 I find has more "base" or exeggeration. These LinLai 6SL7, while I am sure are not the best, I really like. They are "milder" than the Tung-Sols


----------



## UntilThen

I've been listening to classical a lot lately. Odyssey and Susvara combination on classical is pure poetry. 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for...e-you-listening-with-now.881631/post-17196854

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for...e-you-listening-with-now.881631/post-17196876

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for...e-you-listening-with-now.881631/post-17197025

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for...e-you-listening-with-now.881631/post-17197975

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for...e-you-listening-with-now.881631/post-17198366

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for...e-you-listening-with-now.881631/post-17198449


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Posted this over on the pentode thread but figured I put it here too just so @SonicTrance knows what a psycho he’s actually dealing with
> 
> I’m a sick, sick man. My new Ultrasonic Studios amp hasn’t gotten here yet (soon though!) and I have been planning my next amp already. Basically I want a version of what I have right now, a single ended pentode amp. The Dennis Had Inspire KT88 Firebottle is a remarkable amp. Single ended pentode with auto bias and by changing rectifier tubes you can use output tubes ranging from 6f6 up to kt88. Power output ranges from 3ish watts up to a whopping 10 or so. I want the same amp but designed around lower power tubes like the kt61, 6aq5, etc. that max out around 250v. To help get around the low power I would want it to be a parallel single ended with two or three(!) tubes per side. Of course I would want switchable, or even better variable, heater voltages. And if I’m greedy I would like to switch between ultra linear and pentode. What the hell, why have a cheap output transformer?
> 
> ...



This is something you will never be able to get from the known commercial offerings. Custom tube amp builders are quite rare and Tomas is a gem to deal with. I don't he has any idea how many types of tube amps he will produce when he started out with just Oblivion and Citadel.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> This is something you will never be able to get from the known commercial offerings. Custom tube amp builders are quite rare and Tomas is a gem to deal with. I don't he has any idea how many types of tube amps he will produce when he started out with just Oblivion and Citadel.



I’ve talked to Dennis a few times about the general subject. Think I could get a regular 6v version of the amp I described. Doubt he’d do the switchable voltage though, think he has a few power transformers that he has standardized on. Dunno if Tomas would be interested in taking on that build wither, it’s admittedly a little out there. It’s all moot though, I won’t be able to do any audio purchases for another year at least and certainly not at the price this would likely cost.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> This has been hashed and rehashed so many times, it's common knowledge but my question is, *why would you still be keeping a poorly recorded LP or CD?* It goes into the bin or use as coasters.


What else would I send you for Christmas?   🤣  🤣


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> What else would I send you for Christmas?   🤣  🤣



A pair of KR 300b tubes will do.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> What else would I send you for Christmas?   🤣  🤣


…all twelve days…😳🎅🤣…


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> …all twelve days…😳🎅🤣…



As long as the LPs are the likes of Barbara Streisand. I care not that it cost only $1.


----------



## UntilThen

At the shop I was attracted to this album because it's relatively new. When I ask the shop keeper, how much and the reply was $1, I looked at him funny.

And there was $1 in my jeans pocket. Hardly any pops and crackles. Thank you Barbra for the memories.


----------



## Isaacc7

There’s a new twist with my amp! I’ve been enjoying using 12v tubes with my current amp using an outboard power supply and special cable and adapter made by @Deyan. Love the ability to change the voltage as needed but the dedicated cables going to each tube socket just adds clutter and makes each adapter more expensive. Why not make the heater connection to the amp instead of the sockets?

And so here we go! There will be a switch for the heaters. In one position every tube has 6v heaters. The other position will activate two pairs of banana jacks, one for the input tubes and one for the output tubes. This will allow me to run whatever voltage I want for either set of tubes. 2.5v, 4v, 8v, 11v, 16v, 19v, etc. etc. etc. Truly a tube hobbyist’s amp!


----------



## OctavianH

Isaacc7 said:


> And so here we go! There will be a switch for the heaters. In one position every tube has 6v heaters. The other position will activate two pairs of banana jacks, one for the input tubes and one for the output tubes. This will allow me to run whatever voltage I want for either set of tubes. 2.5v, 4v, 8v, 11v, 16v, 19v, etc. etc. etc. Truly a tube hobbyist’s amp!


This means the 12.6V option with the built in transformers is out? There is a reason behind that?


----------



## Isaacc7

OctavianH said:


> This means the 12.6V option with the built in transformers is out? There is a reason behind that?


I decided I wanted a more flexible setup. I can certainly use 12v tubes if I want but I can also run any other voltage as well now.


----------



## OctavianH

Isaacc7 said:


> I decided I wanted a more flexible setup. I can certainly use 12v tubes if I want but I can also run any other voltage as well now.


Is there any chance you will add noise or hum with external power supplies? Even if it is only for the heaters and normally out of the "signal" path.


----------



## Isaacc7

OctavianH said:


> Is there any chance you will add noise or hum with external power supplies? Even if it is only for the heaters and normally out of the "signal" path.


With indirectly heated tubes I don't see how it would add noise. The pins used for the heater aren't connected to any other signal pins. Worst case there could be a grounding issue feeding back into the main power supply. Grounding issues can be solved by changing the ground configuration. In any case, Tomas will certainly let me know if it is an issue.


----------



## SonicTrance

Isaacc7 said:


> With indirectly heated tubes I don't see how it would add noise. The pins used for the heater aren't connected to any other signal pins. Worst case there could be a grounding issue feeding back into the main power supply. Grounding issues can be solved by changing the ground configuration. In any case, Tomas will certainly let me know if it is an issue.


In all my amps I reference the heaters above ground. Meaning there's a DC bias on the heater centertap. That is done as a precaution for noise pickup and hum. Is your external heater supply AC or DC? If DC there's no problems. If AC I can reference it to DC bias.


----------



## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> In all my amps I reference the heaters above ground. Meaning there's a DC bias on the heater centertap. That is done as a precaution for noise pickup and hum. Is your external heater supply AC or DC? If DC there's no problems. If AC I can reference it to DC bias.


I have assumed it was DC but let me ask and I will find out.


----------



## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> In all my amps I reference the heaters above ground. Meaning there's a DC bias on the heater centertap. That is done as a precaution for noise pickup and hum. Is your external heater supply AC or DC? If DC there's no problems. If AC I can reference it to DC bias.


The supply provides DC to the heaters.


----------



## SonicTrance

Isaacc7 said:


> The supply provides DC to the heaters.


No issue then. As long as it’s a clean supply we’re all good.


----------



## OctavianH

Yesterday my Eternity made 18 months since I have received it. So it is a good moment for a picture.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> There’s a new twist with my amp! I’ve been enjoying using 12v tubes with my current amp using an outboard power supply and special cable and adapter made by @Deyan. Love the ability to change the voltage as needed but the dedicated cables going to each tube socket just adds clutter and makes each adapter more expensive. Why not make the heater connection to the amp instead of the sockets?
> 
> And so here we go! There will be a switch for the heaters. In one position every tube has 6v heaters. The other position will activate two pairs of banana jacks, one for the input tubes and one for the output tubes. This will allow me to run whatever voltage I want for either set of tubes. 2.5v, 4v, 8v, 11v, 16v, 19v, etc. etc. etc. Truly a tube hobbyist’s amp!



We all have our requirements. Mine is to keep it simple.  

What is this tube btw? I have a pair. All I know is I can't use it. I thought it is 25v but it is 6.3v Any ideas? Can you use it?


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Yesterday my Eternity made 18 months since I have received it.



Odyssey made it to 14 months and Oblivion is coming up to 3 years. Using both everyday.


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> We all have our requirements. Mine is to keep it simple.
> 
> What is this tube btw? I have a pair. All I know is I can't use it. I thought it is 25v but it is 6.3v Any ideas? Can you use it?



It appears to be an RCA 1635.

https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_1635.html


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> It appears to be an RCA 1635.
> 
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_1635.html



It is RCA 1635 but what is it? It's not a 6sn7 equivalent is it?


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> It is RCA 1635 but what is it? It's not a 6sn7 equivalent is it?



No, while it is a double triode, it is very different than a 6SN7. It has an amplification factor of 65, close to that of a 6SL7. However, it has two separate control grids connected in parallel, and I suspect it is too strange to use in a typical audio amp. That said, perhaps Ultrasonic Studio might consider building something interesting with it?


----------



## senseitedj (Oct 21, 2022)

Happy to fully join the Ultrasonic family.

My Telemachus has entered more than 1 month of service and has already caused many sleepless nights..


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> It is RCA 1635 but what is it? It's not a 6sn7 equivalent is it?


It's a tube for the golf cart audio system, obviously.  No more yelling at me when I drive into the lake.   🤣


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> It's a tube for the golf cart audio system, obviously.  No more yelling at me when I drive into the lake.   🤣



This is what you will be driving next year.


----------



## UntilThen

Ain't I glad that I found all my good CDs.


----------



## UntilThen

Odyssey powering my speakers instead of Oblivion. Amazing !


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> It's a tube for the golf cart audio system, obviously.  No more yelling at me when I drive into the lake.   🤣


A tube based sonar obviously for the purposes of finding those missing golf balls 🤣.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Odyssey made it to 14 months and Oblivion is *coming up to 3 years*. Using both everyday.


A world record? 😀


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> A world record? 😀



A record for me. I have never kept an amp for so long.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> A tube based sonar obviously for the purposes of finding those missing golf balls 🤣.


LOL!  If @UntilThen could keep his balls in the fairway, I wouldn't be the only caddy on the course dressed in scuba gear.   🤣


----------



## audiargent (Oct 22, 2022)

Speaking about sleepless nights, some night shots of the new LinLai tubes.

Been abroad for the entire week, I still have not had the time to fully listen to them - I was told 40 hours of burn in, and still far from that, but I am liking what I hear, especially in terms of detail and balance.

These are not the top of the line. The SL7s are their "basic" offering, the 274Bs, you could call "mid-range".

Still makes my HE-6SEs sing! Never saw a blue glow on driver tubes!


----------



## senseitedj (Oct 22, 2022)

audiargent said:


> These are not the top of the line. The SL7s are their "basic" offering, the 274Bs, you could call "mid-range".
> 
> Still makes my HE-6SEs sing! Never saw a blue glow on driver tubes!


Same here. The tubes I'm rollin right now are not exactly TOTL but having a great time


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  If @UntilThen could keep his balls in the fairway, I wouldn't be the only caddy on the course dressed in _tuba_ gear. 🤣


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## UntilThen

I'm back to using the Telefunken tubes EL11 and EL12 spez with 5U4G rectifier. In UL mode, driving my speakers or Susvara. Amp is cooler with these tubes but amazing clarity and tone. Has to be one of the best combo in Odyssey. Source is my Pioneer sacd player, playing Eagles Hell Freezes Over JVC xrcd2 album.

See the volume knob is only there driving Susvara. Lots more headroom.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> I'm back to using the Telefunken tubes EL11 and EL12 spez with 5U4G rectifier. In UL mode, driving my speakers or Susvara. Amp is cooler with these tubes but amazing clarity and tone. Has to be one of the best combo in Odyssey. Source is my Pioneer sacd player, playing Eagles Hell Freezes Over JVC xrcd2 album.
> 
> See the volume knob is only there driving Susvara. Lots more headroom.


That is the same I keep it with HE-6SE if  on 8 ohm winding. So I must assume ours have similar output power...

Beautiful tubes! 

I think these were one of the first you listed to in the amp?

It's the same for me with the KT170s


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> That is the same I keep it with HE-6SE if  on 8 ohm winding. So I must assume ours have similar output power...
> 
> Beautiful tubes!
> 
> ...



Yes our amps have similar power. The Psvane KT88 Tii were the first power tubes to be used because I haven't received my 5U4G rectifier yet, which is required for the EL12 spez.

This was taken on 13th August 2021, the first day I received Odyssey. It has been a love affair since then. I've never love anything this much in head-fi.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> This was taken on 13th August 2021, the first day I received Odyssey. It has been a love affair since then. *I've never love anything this much in head-fi.*


... except your putter, as your caddie will testify 😀.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> ... except your putter, as your caddie will testify 😀.



It's still Odyssey.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm having an epiphany listening to this album with Pioneer sacd player > Odyssey > Susvara.


----------



## jonathan c

baronbeehive said:


> ... except your putter, as your caddie will testify 😀.


…which is why he gives it to you to tee off…😳


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> I'm having an epiphany listening to this album with Pioneer sacd player > Odyssey > Susvara.


Yep, I do the same with her album "Another Country".


----------



## JazzVinyl

baronbeehive said:


> Yep, I do the same with her album "Another Country".


Agree - a vastly better album


----------



## baronbeehive

JazzVinyl said:


> Agree - a vastly better album


I love the version of "O Sole Mio", her voice is so thick and smokey 👍.


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> I'm having an epiphany listening to this album with Pioneer sacd player > Odyssey > Susvara.



I feel you, listening the 24bit/192 kHz version on Qobuz. So goooood.


----------



## UntilThen

A big box arrive today. Much bigger than the KT88 boxes. What can it be?


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> A big box arrive today. Much bigger than the KT88 boxes. What can it be?


Well? Are you just going to leave us hanging?


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Well? Are you just going to leave us hanging?



A pair of 300b tubes. Didn't intend to buy it at this time but a friend was selling off his very low hours quad which he used in his WA234, for cheap.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> A pair of 300b tubes. Didn't intend to buy it at this time but a friend was selling off his very low hours quad which he used in his WA234, for cheap.


Ooh… a quad? I know that WE tubes are known for their longevity but I’ve never heard anything about the other brands.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Ooh… a quad? I know that WE tubes are known for their longevity but I’ve never heard anything about the other brands.



Nah I bought a pair only. Start off at the bottom and work my way up.


----------



## UntilThen

Bald headed tubes. Not too bad looking.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Bald headed tubes. Not too bad looking.


Don't know about 300B'a but TJ's aren't bad sounding either.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> Don't know about 300B'a but TJ's aren't bad sounding either.



What I wanted to do is to hear for myself a budget 300b tube and one that is supposedly pricey. I had to be satisfied that the megabucks that WE, Elrog or Takatsuki charges are worth it. Or is it just the consumer believing that anything that is expensive has to be much much much better.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> What I wanted to do is to hear for myself a budget 300b tube and one that is supposedly pricey. I had to be satisfied that the megabucks that WE, Elrog or Takatsuki charges are worth it. *Or is it just the consumer believing that anything that is expensive has to be much much much better.*


Nope.


----------



## SonicTrance

It's finally complete! Here's the push pull version of Odyssey!

It's setup as a power amp so no volume control. 6SL7/6SN7 driver tubes, cathode biased. Then you have adjustments galore for the output stage. The anode voltage can be set from 250V-400V. Then you set the negative grid bias for each output tube. The mA meters measures one tube at a time. Just flick the toggle switch towards the tube you want to measure. I included a 125mA fuse for each output tube just in case one should forget to adjust the bias.

As you can see the mains transformer is slightly pushed back. This is because we were having an issue with the Monolith mains and decided to replace it. And so to not have to rebuild the entire amp we pushed the new transformer back a little to cover up old mounting holes. 

We also added extra banana jacks at the back panel. One set for the power tubes and one set for the driver tubes. This is for external heater power supplies. They are connected to the two big toggle switches on the top plate. Toggle up for internal 6.3V or down for external heating.

It can run both triode and ultra linear for the power tubes. 

The switches on the front are impedance, 4/8 ohms, and output selector, speakers/headphones.


----------



## UntilThen (Oct 29, 2022)

Another beautiful Ultrasonic Studio amp. It looks alright with the mains tranformer push back a bit. Now I have a glimpse of how Telemachus with those Monoliths transformer will look.


----------



## bcowen

SonicTrance said:


> It's finally complete! Here's the push pull version of Odyssey!
> 
> It's setup as a power amp so no volume control. 6SL7/6SN7 driver tubes, cathode biased. Then you have adjustments galore for the output stage. The anode voltage can be set from 250V-400V. Then you set the negative grid bias for each output tube. The mA meters measures one tube at a time. Just flick the toggle switch towards the tube you want to measure. I included a 125mA fuse for each output tube just in case one should forget to adjust the bias.
> 
> ...


Beautiful!!


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> It's finally complete! Here's the push pull version of Odyssey!


Best looking amp yet, and I love all those switches .


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Another beautiful Ultrasonic Studio amp. It looks alright with the mains tranformer push back a bit. Now I have a glimpse of how Telemachus with those Monoliths transformer will look.


Yes, you have! It's this exact transformer cover I'll use on yours (and mine) Telemachus. It matches the Monolith's very nice!



bcowen said:


> Beautiful!!





baronbeehive said:


> Best looking amp yet, and I love all those switches .


Thanks guys!


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Yes, you have! It's this exact transformer cover I'll use on yours (and mine) Telemachus. It matches the Monolith's very nice!



Are the transformers on Telemachus the same size as that used in this Odyssey amp?


----------



## Isaacc7 (Oct 29, 2022)

SonicTrance said:


> It's finally complete! Here's the push pull version of Odyssey!
> 
> It's setup as a power amp so no volume control. 6SL7/6SN7 driver tubes, cathode biased. Then you have adjustments galore for the output stage. The anode voltage can be set from 250V-400V. Then you set the negative grid bias for each output tube. The mA meters measures one tube at a time. Just flick the toggle switch towards the tube you want to measure. I included a 125mA fuse for each output tube just in case one should forget to adjust the bias.
> 
> ...


SQEEEEEE!!! It’s finally happening! Guess I should get the stand built and cables bought lol.

I’ve being poring over tube curves and haunting various sites to get operating points for the various tubes I want to use. Looks like I’ll be able to hit the sweet spot for my 6l6 family of tubes (KT66, 807, 6ar6, 7581a), but also the 6v6 family (6/12v6, 6f6, 6k6, 6aq5) as well. That makes up the bulk of my output tubes. Add the el38/e3375  and I’ll be set for now. Have a few other more esoteric things in the wings (GU50, 12av5, 2e26) but those can wait.

As far as the input tubes go, I’ve got a zillion of those as well. 6/12sn7, 6/12sl7, 6f8g, 6c8g, 2c50, 12sx7, 11n7, ecc31. There are a bunch of brand and construction variations of those tubes as well. Also have a bunch of 6/12j5gt And now some 6c5g. At first I was kicking myself looking at my new amp, I’ll never be able to put those adapters on the amp, the tubes are too close! Should’ve told Tomas to keep that in mind. But then I remembered that the adapters from @Deyan actually rotate so I should be fine.

If you follow the pentode thread you know that I have been trying all of my output tubes in my current amp, a Dennis Had Inspire KT88 Firebottle. It is a single ended pentode amp. My new amp will run the tubes in either triode or Ultralinear. I fully anticipate very different sounds because of the different topology and more power. Because I can now adjust the anode voltage and the bias current I also expect to be able to change the sound that way as well. Time to rediscover my tube collection!


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> ... I fully anticipate very different sounds because of the different topology and more power. Because I can now adjust the anode voltage and the bias current I also expect to be able to change the sound that way as well. Time to rediscover my tube collection!


I'm interested in how the amp will sound different due to the topology too.

How do you set the negative grid bias on the amp?


----------



## Isaacc7

baronbeehive said:


> I'm interested in how the amp will sound different due to the topology too.
> 
> How do you set the negative grid bias on the amp?


There are ports for a meter next to each output tube. Set the bias and voltage (via the center meter), turn off the amp, wait 5 minutes, put in tubes, then turn on. That’s the way @SonicTrance wants it done. Once the tubes are warm check the bias meters and correct as needed.


----------



## senseitedj

The feature with input ports for the heater voltage supply is really neat! Those monolith transformers really do live up to their name.


----------



## Isaacc7

senseitedj said:


> The feature with input ports for the heater voltage supply is really neat! Those monolith transformers really do live up to their name.


I had originally asked for a simple 6v/12v switch for both input and output tubes. Spending too much time on the internet, and money, let me to looking at other voltage tubes. I own 11n7 and 16gk6 tubes. I have also started to look into the world of old British 4v tubes. Having external supplies is the easiest way to have the most flexibility.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Are the transformers on Telemachus the same size as that used in this Odyssey amp?


Yes, they are the exact same size


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> There are ports for a meter next to each output tube. Set the bias and voltage (via the center meter), turn off the amp, wait 5 minutes, put in tubes, then turn on. That’s the way @SonicTrance wants it done. Once the tubes are warm check the bias meters and correct as needed.


Very neat, I wondered about that centre meter, so can you set any value?


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Yes, they are the exact same size



It hasn't sink in yet that I will have 3 tube amps built by you but I am loving Oblivion and Odyssey very much now. All 3 amps will be very different in design and sound. To have Odyssey with Sowter and Telemachus with Monolith, it wasn't planned but it turn out more than I anticipate what my final setup will be. The enjoyment that I get out of my amps is incredible. I will not have it any other way.

I haven't really listen with Susvara for a week but now that I have it strapped on my head with Odyssey powering it, the euphony sweeps me off my feet. Such a wonderful sweet tone. It's one of life's simple pleasure for me.


----------



## audiargent

Those transformers look excellent! What happened to the mains transformer? Will you be using Monolith again for the mains?


----------



## Isaacc7

baronbeehive said:


> Very neat, I wondered about that centre meter, so can you set any value?


There are limits. I can set the anode voltage anywhere between 250v to 400v. I have to be careful about biasing the tube at lower voltages. The lower I set the anode voltage the more current the regulator has to eat so it limits how much current I can set with the bias. I've been advised that if I run tubes at 250v I should not exceed 30ma bias. That scales up to 50-60 ma if I run it at 400v.


----------



## SonicTrance

audiargent said:


> Those transformers look excellent! What happened to the mains transformer? Will you be using Monolith again for the mains?


The mains transformer hummed under load. I've sent it back for them to have a look at. I'll most likely not use their mains again unless I really need a custom one. That's mostly because of cost. I see little to no benefit by using those mega expensive mains. I do love their OT's though!


----------



## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> The mains transformer hummed under load. I've sent it back for them to have a look at. I'll most likely not use their mains again unless I really need a custom one. That's mostly because of cost. I see little to no benefit by using those mega expensive mains. I do love their OT's though!


So you love the output transformers… That implies you liked what you heard while testing… 

Their reputation, or at least the chatter I have seen about them, has been all about the single ended transformers. I wasn’t sure they would make a big difference for push pull. Figured that if this was going to I be my last push pull amp why not go for it? Tomas, when you do the 300b amps what core material will you use?

I am using external supplies for the heaters but I wonder how difficult it would be to integrate variable SMPS inside a chassis. Might make more sense with a two chassis amp. When I thought about the variable heater, anode, and biasing I wondered why other companies aren’t offering those things. The obvious hit me, I’m bound to screw something up at some point and blow stuff up. A regular manufacturer would be nuts to put this kind of control in users’ hands Lol. Way too many ways to screw up. But if you truly want to plumb the depths of tube rolling insanity you gotta be willing to risk a few screw ups. That’s how I’m justifying it at least.


----------



## UntilThen

Hammond mains in Odyssey does its job very well. Quiet and reliable. Trouble free in the one year it’s been performing.

Hammond will again feature in my Telemachus.


----------



## triod750

A properly used Hammond organ can be awesome through an amp!


----------



## Isaacc7 (Oct 29, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Hammond mains in Odyssey does its job very well. Quiet and reliable. Trouble free in the one year it’s been performing.
> 
> Hammond will again feature in my Telemachus.


I’ve got a toroid in mine. As long as it can deliver the power and stay quiet I think just about any properly specced power transformer will be fine. My heater supplies are SMPS.


----------



## UntilThen

triod750 said:


> A properly used Hammond organ can be awesome through an amp!



The best known Hammond is Hammond Lord.


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> There are limits. I can set the anode voltage anywhere between 250v to 400v. I have to be careful about biasing the tube at lower voltages. The lower I set the anode voltage the more current the regulator has to eat so it limits how much current I can set with the bias. I've been advised that if I run tubes at 250v I should not exceed 30ma bias. That scales up to 50-60 ma if I run it at 400v.



I see. That's a very neat trick, I might try it on my LD... if I can figure out how Sonic did it!!



Isaacc7 said:


> ... I wonder how difficult it would be to integrate variable SMPS inside a chassis. Might make more sense with a two chassis amp. When I thought about the variable heater, anode, and biasing I wondered why other companies aren’t offering those things. The obvious hit me, I’m bound to screw something up at some point and blow stuff up. A regular manufacturer would be nuts to put this kind of control in users’ hands Lol. Way too many ways to screw up. But if you truly want to plumb the depths of tube rolling insanity you gotta be willing to risk a few screw ups. That’s how I’m justifying it at least.



Yes, a lot of ways to screw things up LOL.

Re: SMPS here is a pick of my APPJ showing the SMPS behind the metal screen, amp and PS all in the same chassis, and a small one at that. It is completely quiet. Just to show you it can be done, don't know if Sonic would advise though.


----------



## baronbeehive

triod750 said:


> A properly used Hammond organ can be awesome through an amp!


Yes, and I use Amperex Bugle Boy type tubes which are specially screened for Hammond organs, so they must be good!


----------



## triod750

UntilThen said:


> The best known Hammond is Hammond Lord.



He would have liked this:


----------



## UntilThen

My Odyssey was originally supposed to have Sowter mains transformer as everyone knows but Sowter stops customised mains halfway while waiting for it. So Mr Hammond came into the picture, all the way from Canada. 

Odyssey at one day old.


----------



## UntilThen

Now for a bit of marketing for Ultrasonic Studio amps.   I stand by proudly on Ultrasonic amps.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hifiman-susvara.853031/post-17218692


----------



## UntilThen

Sorry @bcowen  I miss out on this.
https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/561355-kr-audio-vt850-mk-monoblocks-with-eml-320b-xls/


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Sorry @bcowen  I miss out on this.
> https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/561355-kr-audio-vt850-mk-monoblocks-with-eml-320b-xls/


That's a beast.  But wait....EML tubes in a KR amp?  That's sacrilegious.  The horror!


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> That's a beast.  But wait....EML tubes in a KR amp?  That's sacrilegious.  The horror!



Hahaha ..... I wouldn't have mind to be honest. Whatever 320b xls.


----------



## senseitedj (Oct 31, 2022)

Went to an audio exhibition in Indonesia and had a chance to demo a few pieces of gear. Link below are my impressions in the ZMF amp thread, as I tried it mostly with ZMF headphones. In particular I was curious with Atrium. I left some picture of tube amps in this thread. Got to try DCA expanse as well. Sounds similar to HEDDphone but with less soundstage but more comfortable (and expensive). DCA provided slightly higher clarity and soundstage still feels out-of-your-head.

I think if you are curious on demoing the Telemachus, there are some differences, but the Cayin HA300 MK2 provides a sufficiently good impression of what it sounds like. In general, the Telemachus has higher clarity, soundstage and generally feels a lot less congested-sounding (when evaluating under show conditions). To my ears, the 'voicing' are along with the same lines when comparing the Cayin HA300 MK2 with Telemachus on SS rectifier.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-un-official-amp-thread-for-zmf-headphones.965309/page-35


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> To my ears, the 'voicing' are along with the same lines when comparing the Cayin HA300 MK2 with Telemachus on SS rectifier.



@TheMiddleSky didn't it was worth comparing Cayin HA300 Mk2 with Telemachus but now you're telling me they are the same voicing.


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> @TheMiddleSky didn't it was worth comparing Cayin HA300 Mk2 with Telemachus but now you're telling me they are the same voicing.



Bear in mind it was show conditions for me. The Tele is a much-improved version from a technical perspective, but with the Cayin 300b it shared *some *similar sonic characteristics. 

Based on talking to him in real-life, I think he meant that from a technical perspective the ultrasonic amps are in a higher league despite the similar pricing, hence its not really worth comparing the two.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> Bear in mind it was show conditions for me. The Tele is a much-improved version from a technical perspective, but with the Cayin 300b it shared *some *similar sonic characteristics.
> 
> Based on talking to him in real-life, I think he meant that from a technical perspective the ultrasonic amps are in a higher league despite the similar pricing, hence its not really worth comparing the two.



That's the reason why I ask him to compare Cayn HA300 Mk2 with Telemachus because I have to be impartial. I actually consider the Cayin before ordering Telemachus. They are not the same price point btw. I could have gotten the the Cayin with tubes included for less than Telemachus without tubes.

However I'm completely worn over by Odyssey voicing. My reasoning is if I can have a 300b amp with similar Odyssey voicing, then that's what I want. So much so I sold off Destiny for that goal.


----------



## senseitedj

UntilThen said:


> That's the reason why I ask him to compare Cayn HA300 Mk2 with Telemachus because I have to be impartial. I actually consider the Cayin before ordering Telemachus. They are not the same price point btw. I could have gotten the the Cayin with tubes included for less than Telemachus without tubes.
> 
> However I'm completely worn over by Odyssey voicing. My reasoning is if I can have a 300b amp with similar Odyssey voicing, then that's what I want. So much so I sold off Destiny for that goal.



Ref. to price I was comparing at my local prices at the present currency rates (IDR) before taking into consideration import duties, so that's why there may differences. Here, tele works out to be few hundred bucks more expensive than cayin 300 in its 'stock' form before you add options and other logistic fees to the former.

I can't comment on how it sounds relative to the Odyssey.  All I can say is that the Tele in SS mode had wider soundstage, focused imaging, had better speed and overall sense of transparency. They shared a characteristic in that both had soft leading and trailing edges in notes. Looking from that viewpoint, I felt some sense of familiarity when I tried the Cayin 300 with the HEDDPhone.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> I can't comment on how it sounds relative to the Odyssey.



Odyssey is the fusion of the best of tube amps and solid states.


----------



## Thaddy

The end of the month is always a fun time to revisit this thread, I love seeing the new builds from Tomas.  Just a few more before my Odyssey gets going!


----------



## UntilThen

I think the next is Telemachus for Tomas himself.


----------



## Thaddy

Telemachus has to be the pinnacle of that classic tube amp sound everyone chases.


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> Telemachus has to be the pinnacle of that classic tube amp sound everyone chases.



Hard not to love 300b sound.


----------



## audiargent

UntilThen said:


> My Odyssey was originally supposed to have Sowter mains transformer as everyone knows but Sowter stops customised mains halfway while waiting for it. So Mr Hammond came into the picture, all the way from Canada.
> 
> Odyssey at one day old.


You showed me yours...

I'll show you mine...

A beefy Hammond mains, and the custom Sowters.


----------



## UntilThen

audiargent said:


> You showed me yours...
> 
> I'll show you mine...



Like 2 kids in a school yard right?


----------



## UntilThen

There's another item in my roadmap. It's a dedicated streamer. Lumin example or others. Having explore yet.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm putting my name in to listen to this. Hope I can get in !


----------



## UntilThen

@senseitedj  I am thinking of having impedance(s) switch on my Telemachus. Now that you have it, do you find it beneficial? What are the impedances you can set it to? Were you given the power output for each of the impedance?

That's a lot of questions.


----------



## senseitedj (Nov 1, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> @senseitedj  I am thinking of having impedance(s) switch on my Telemachus. Now that you have it, do you find it beneficial? What are the impedances you can set it to? Were you given the power output for each of the impedance?
> 
> That's a lot of questions.



It is a really useful feature, especially if you have multiple HPs. Mine is adjustable to 3 levels, but other oblivion owners have it to 2. I do not know the exact value of the output impedances, as I did not specify it in my build and just said what my main HPs, which are the LCD-4z and HEDDphone. I just let Tomas @SonicTrance work his magic based on that info. Perhaps he can comment. 

I use HEDDphone on High-Z, and LCD-4z on Low-Z. High-Z on HEDDphone improves dynamics, punch and slam at a small expense of soundstage. No hiss or hum for LCD-4z even on high-z but I prefer to set it at low-z to improve its rather small soundstage. You can perhaps use it to add an extra degree of customisation on top of tube rolling.

I think each successive impedance level triples the power output, based on how it is implemented on the oblivion (see bottom): https://ultrasonicstudios.org/oblivion/  . But I cannot say this for sure


----------



## K3cT

senseitedj said:


> Went to an audio exhibition in Indonesia and had a chance to demo a few pieces of gear. Link below are my impressions in the ZMF amp thread, as I tried it mostly with ZMF headphones. In particular I was curious with Atrium. I left some picture of tube amps in this thread. Got to try DCA expanse as well. Sounds similar to HEDDphone but with less soundstage but more comfortable (and expensive). DCA provided slightly higher clarity and soundstage still feels out-of-your-head.
> 
> I think if you are curious on demoing the Telemachus, there are some differences, but the Cayin HA300 MK2 provides a sufficiently good impression of what it sounds like. In general, the Telemachus has higher clarity, soundstage and generally feels a lot less congested-sounding (when evaluating under show conditions). To my ears, the 'voicing' are along with the same lines when comparing the Cayin HA300 MK2 with Telemachus on SS rectifier.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-un-official-amp-thread-for-zmf-headphones.965309/page-35



Quite mean aren't you comparing the Cayin with the Tele?


----------



## senseitedj (Nov 1, 2022)

@K3cT  It is what it is, given the level of componentry and methods used in cayin vs tele, the differences are somewhat expected. These are just relative comparisons. That being said I still really enjoyed my time with Cayin at the show.


----------



## UntilThen

senseitedj said:


> It is a really useful feature, especially if you have multiple HPs. Mine is adjustable to 3 levels, but other oblivion owners have it to 2. I do not know the exact value of the output impedances, as I did not specify it in my build and just said what my main HPs, which are the LCD-4z and HEDDphone. I just let Tomas @SonicTrance work his magic based on that info. Perhaps he can comment.
> 
> I use HEDDphone on High-Z, and LCD-4z on Low-Z. High-Z on HEDDphone improves dynamics, punch and slam at a small expense of soundstage. No hiss or hum for LCD-4z even on high-z but I prefer to set it at low-z to improve its rather small soundstage. You can perhaps use it to add an extra degree of customisation on top of tube rolling.
> 
> I think each successive impedance level triples the power output, based on how it is implemented on the oblivion (see bottom): https://ultrasonicstudios.org/oblivion/  . But I cannot say this for sure



Thanks for the reply. I will talk to Tomas more closer to the date.


----------



## UntilThen

These tubes have remained in Odyssey for almost a month. Incredibly, the more I listen, the better it gets. I should just leave them in there. It's locked on Susvara, having that tighness in tone with no softness and the unmistakeable sparkly, electrified tube tone of Telefunken tubes.


----------



## audiargent

senseitedj said:


> It is a really useful feature, especially if you have multiple HPs. Mine is adjustable to 3 levels, but other oblivion owners have it to 2. I do not know the exact value of the output impedances, as I did not specify it in my build and just said what my main HPs, which are the LCD-4z and HEDDphone. I just let Tomas @SonicTrance work his magic based on that info. Perhaps he can comment.
> 
> I use HEDDphone on High-Z, and LCD-4z on Low-Z. High-Z on HEDDphone improves dynamics, punch and slam at a small expense of soundstage. No hiss or hum for LCD-4z even on high-z but I prefer to set it at low-z to improve its rather small soundstage. You can perhaps use it to add an extra degree of customisation on top of tube rolling.
> 
> I think each successive impedance level triples the power output, based on how it is implemented on the oblivion (see bottom): https://ultrasonicstudios.org/oblivion/  . But I cannot say this for sure


Ironically on my Odyssey, I prefer it on the HEDDphone on the low impedance setting (8 ohms). At 32 ohmS for it, I feel, only increases the hum.
I also have an attenuation switch, I find it does alter the characteristics - especially base and vocal forwardness.   

What cables do you use with the HEDD?


----------



## senseitedj

audiargent said:


> Ironically on my Odyssey, I prefer it on the HEDDphone on the low impedance setting (8 ohms). At 32 ohmS for it, I feel, only increases the hum.
> I also have an attenuation switch, I find it does alter the characteristics - especially base and vocal forwardness.
> 
> What cables do you use with the HEDD?


We use totally different amps so it's normal that the changes from the impedance are not the same.

I use Moon Audio blue dragon.


----------



## DecentLevi

senseitedj said:


> I use HEDDphone on High-Z, and LCD-4z on Low-Z. High-Z on HEDDphone improves dynamics, punch and slam at a small expense of soundstage. No hiss or hum for LCD-4z even on high-z but I prefer to set it at low-z to improve its rather small soundstage. You can perhaps use it to add an extra degree of customisation on top of tube rolling.
> 
> I think each successive impedance level triples the power output, based on how it is implemented on the oblivion (see bottom): https://ultrasonicstudios.org/oblivion/  . But I cannot say this for sure


So for you the LCD-4z is less sensitive to hum than the HEDDphone? I didn't expect that because of the HEDD's sensitivity of 87 vs. 93 of LCD-4z. Is the difference very great? I have a used HEDDphone incoming that I will try.

A modest bit of the buzz also comes from the tubes, so I wonder if anyone has tried tube absorption rings to any positive effect?


----------



## UntilThen

All my tubes are buzz free without the need for absorption rings. Even EL12 spez with adapters.


----------



## senseitedj

DecentLevi said:


> So for you the LCD-4z is less sensitive to hum than the HEDDphone? I didn't expect that because of the HEDD's sensitivity of 87 vs. 93 of LCD-4z. Is the difference very great? I have a used HEDDphone incoming that I will try.
> 
> A modest bit of the buzz also comes from the tubes, so I wonder if anyone has tried tube absorption rings to any positive effect?



No, what I said is that I get no hum/hiss whatsoever on my sensitive LCD-4z, even when the amp's output is set to high impedance. 

Sensitive headphones are usually the first ones to pick up hiss/hum, but nothing for my case. LCD-4z is 98db/mW at 15 ohms impedance btw, very sensitive. 

I use a UPS to reduce ground loops and to protect the amp from power surges (which happens occasionally where I am located).


----------



## UntilThen

After weeks of Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez, I finally roll in GEC A2900 and KT88. Admittedly this is better. Never knew that I will acknowledge that. Clarity is pulsating now and vocals has that sweetness. Telefunken and GEC... the best brand house sound in the business.

As I listen to music, I think of Telemachus that is coming next year. How will that alter the way Susvara sound?


----------



## ThanatosVI

UntilThen said:


> As I listen to music, I think of Telemachus that is coming next year. How will that alter the way Susvara sound?


So you still think about adding more amps?
Didn't even Ultrasonic Studios tell you to shift a gear down?


----------



## UntilThen

ThanatosVI said:


> So you still think about adding more amps?
> Didn't even Ultrasonic Studios tell you to shift a gear down?



I'm not thinking. It's ordered and mostly paid for. April 2023 is my build month. There's time to save for WE or Elrog 300b. The never ending money splurge in head-fi. 

There's no shifting gear down. The only way is up. Having said that, Telemachus has to be the last amp (tube) that I will need. Anything else is in excess.


----------



## ThanatosVI

UntilThen said:


> I'm not thinking. It's ordered and mostly paid for. April 2023 is my build month. There's time to save for WE or Elrog 300b. The never ending money splurge in head-fi.
> 
> There's no shifting gear down. The only way is up. Having said that, Telemachus has to be the last amp (tube) that I will need. Anything else is in excess.


I'm pretty sure it is already excess after Oblivion and Odyssey😅
But who am I to say something after ordering my own 2nd high end tube amp... 

Head-Fi is a dangerous place


----------



## UntilThen

ThanatosVI said:


> I'm pretty sure it is already excess after Oblivion and Odyssey😅
> But who am I to say something after ordering my own 2nd high end tube amp...
> 
> Head-Fi is a dangerous place



So you ordered the Envy. We ought to get together to compare the amps. Head-fi.... why did I join in 2015? My exit should have been a while ago but I am still here.


----------



## ThanatosVI

UntilThen said:


> So you ordered the Envy. We ought to get together to compare the amps. Head-fi.... why did I join in 2015? My exit should have been a while ago but I am still here.


Yes I did, the price increase triggered me to act now.

Instead of a custom bog oak Version it's now a american walnut one, but in return I can keep the Octave. 
One of the best KT88 amps and one of the best 300Bs, you know the luxury 

Would be cool to compare our amps, but we live really far away from each other, don't we?


----------



## UntilThen

ThanatosVI said:


> Yes I did, the price increase triggered me to act now.
> 
> Instead of a custom bog oak Version it's now a american walnut one, but in return I can keep the Octave.
> One of the best KT88 amps and one of the best 300Bs, you know the luxury
> ...



Good point. Price increase and exchange rate going up.

Shortest distance between Germany and Australia is 9021 miles or 14,457 kms. Not that far.


----------



## Isaacc7

A quick update. The amp is here! The trouble is that I’m partially disabled and I can’t get it out of the box and on to the stand. Gah! Will have to wait until I get someone in to do it for me. So frustrating! I am otherwise ready. Got the second power supply and cables and have laid out my first set of tubes. So close but so far…


----------



## triod750

I don't 'like' your trouble but I congratulate you to what you have ahead of you. First frustrating, then rewarding!!


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> A quick update. The amp is here! The trouble is that I’m partially disabled and I can’t get it out of the box and on to the stand. Gah! Will have to wait until I get someone in to do it for me. So frustrating! I am otherwise ready. Got the second power supply and cables and have laid out my first set of tubes. So close but so far…



I'm sorry to hear that. I had trouble getting this out of the box too, even though I work out 8 days a weeks. It's a miracle I got it on the rack.


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> I work out 8 days a weeks


Slacker...


----------



## Isaacc7

Amp is up and running! Only issue setting up was the banana cables I bought for the external heater supplies are too short so I’m stuck with 6v tubes for now. Hardly a burden as I have plenty of those. I was originally going to use 14c5 for outputs and my Tungsol BGRP 12sn7 for inpout tubes. Right now I’ve got some Sylvania JAN 7c5 for output and brown base Sylvania 6sn7w in input. Running the 7c5 in triode at 250v 30Ma. 

Oh, should also talk about the rest of my system. I use my iPad Pro as a source using either Apple Music or JRemote to access my JRiver library. That goes into a Supratek Cabernet currently using Raytheon 12j5wgt. That goes into the amp and then into the Phase Technology PC 3.5 speakers. I listen to a wide variety of music except pop country and hip hop/rap left me behind around 2005 or so lol. My typical late night listening has been Indian classical music recently but I do also enjoy classical guitar and piano as well. First music using the amp is Andrew Bird’s album My Finest Work Yet.


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## Isaacc7

My very first impression was that this sounded much more like a traditional tube amp than my single ended pentode amp. That shouldn’t be too surprising, it is a standard, pretty old circuit design-wise. Less defined bass, fuzzy soundstage, kind of warm. Also sounded a bit congested and lacked air. Of course this is the first time I’ve used the amp and these particular tubes. Still…

The amp has both 4 ohm and 8 ohm outputs. Keep in mind that multi driver speakers with passive crossovers present a much more complicated load than single driver headphones.  Speakers will advertise a nominal impedance but one look at the impedance measurement will show that it actually varies considerably depending on the frequency. Pretty sure headphones are usually pretty much a resistive load with a constant impedance. Multi driver speakers with their crossovers present a reactive load and how they interact with amps and transformers is really complicated. My speakers are nominally 4 ohms so that’s what I started with. On the other hand my other amp only has a single tap of the transformer and it is around 9 ohms and sounds amazing. I wonder what will happen if I switch to 8 ohms?

Big difference. Bass has tightened up and there’s a lot more clarity through the midrange. Pro tip, if you are using a tube amp with speakers, see how they sound with different taps on the transformers.


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## Isaacc7

Ok, first complaint. The power light is white! Ugh. Turn off the lights and it is impossible to see anything else. My gear is in front of me and so it is just blazing into my eyes. Why is a light needed at all? If an indicator is needed why not a small, dim red one? I’m going to have to figure out a way to cover this up. Hopefully it won’t be too ugly with the lights on.


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## UntilThen

You mean this light?


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## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> You mean this light?


Yup. @SonicTrance is there a red light that can replace the stock one?


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## UntilThen

For sheer thrill, I listen with my headphone setup because it will take a very good stereo system and a well done acoustic treated room to give me the same enjoyment. Susvara is breathaking in my setup.


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## Isaacc7

Oh man, this amp…

I have never listened to an amp using ultra linear before. With these particular tubes it is… well, extraordinary. Ultra linear is supposed to give you the advantages of both pentode (more power) and triode (lower distortion, lower output impedance which leads to better dampening). With these 7c5 ultra linear has smoothed out the mid/highs and deepened and tightened the bass. It has also opened up the whole image and now there is much more air. Tomorrow I will see if it sounds any better with the 4 ohm tap. 

I‘ll soon switch over to the tube rolling thread but I wanted to highlight just how flexible this amp is. I really feel like I can dial in the sound. For tube hobbyists like myself this is so nice. While ultra linear is pretty common with push pull amps, you can also use it with SE amps as well. SE amps using pentodes/tetrodes of course. The transformer would cost more but it’s something worth asking about if you ever have Tomas make you an amp. 

Oh, the amp is dead quiet and runs pretty cool so far. The adjustable voltages for B+ and bias can lead to extra amps that the regulator has to disapate. I’ve stuck to the guidelines Tomas gave me and the side with the heat sinks is warm but not hot. And the power transformer isn’t making any heat at all as far as I can tell.


----------



## audiargent

Isaacc7 said:


> Ok, first complaint. The power light is white! Ugh. Turn off the lights and it is impossible to see anything else. My gear is in front of me and so it is just blazing into my eyes. Why is a light needed at all? If an indicator is needed why not a small, dim red one? I’m going to have to figure out a way to cover this up. Hopefully it won’t be too ugly with the lights on.


I had asked to have it removed. No power light for me.... Just tubes!


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## SonicTrance

Isaacc7 said:


> Yup. @SonicTrance is there a red light that can replace the stock one?


I’m sure there are plenty of options. The mounting hole is 8mm. Get a 12V LED. Personally I like white as it’s cleaner looking. My reasoning for a pilot light is I like to know instantly when I flip the switch that the amp is ON, and not have to wait for the tubes to heat up.


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## OctavianH

In my case I have no pilot light but VU meters light orange when I start the amp. However, I also have an ON/OFF switch for them, case in which no light except tubes. I barely use this one since I keep 99% the VU meters on. Reason for ordering was to ensure no distraction in low light and also to check if sound quality is influenced by something like this, as far as I know these measure on mine output signal.


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## UntilThen

No led light on my Odyssey. I have 6 tubes lighted.


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## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Oh, the amp is dead quiet and runs pretty cool so far.



Seems to be so with all Ultrasonic amps.


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## UntilThen

Friday night with an all Tung Sol setup. Tung Sol 6su7gty and 6550. With such light show why would I need led light.  I'm always amazed whenever I use 6550 because the bass is so special and the treble so clear but it's the mids that stands out imo.


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## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> I listen to a wide variety of music except pop country and hip hop/rap left me behind around 2005 or so lol. My typical late night listening has been Indian classical music recently but I do also enjoy classical guitar and piano as well. First music using the amp is Andrew Bird’s album My Finest Work Yet.


I also like traditional Indian music, have you any titles like this you could post? I have quite a few classical guitar albums if you're interested.


Isaacc7 said:


> ... Keep in mind that multi driver speakers with passive crossovers present a much more complicated load than single driver headphones.


I was concerned about this when I got my amp but I needn't have worried, it sounds fine.


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## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> I’m sure there are plenty of options. The mounting hole is 8mm. Get a 12V LED. Personally I like white as it’s cleaner looking. My reasoning for a pilot light is I like to know instantly when I flip the switch that the amp is ON, and not have to wait for the tubes to heat up.


Maybe it would be better to disconnect mine. That should be pretty easy to do right? That would save me from covering up the light and messing up the looks.


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## Isaacc7

SonicTrance said:


> I’m sure there are plenty of options. The mounting hole is 8mm. Get a 12V LED. Personally I like white as it’s cleaner looking. My reasoning for a pilot light is I like to know instantly when I flip the switch that the amp is ON, and not have to wait for the tubes to heat up.


White looks good when there’s light in the room. In the dark it is blinding. I can’t luxuriate in how good tubes look lit up! On a more serious note white light ruins night vision. When I look away I can’t see anything at all for a bit. It is also going to make it more difficult to see if there is any plate glow as I play with voltages. I will look for replacement LEDs. Are there different kinds of mounting options I need to look for?


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## gibosi

Isaacc7 said:


> White looks good when there’s light in the room. In the dark it is blinding. I can’t luxuriate in how good tubes look lit up! On a more serious note white light ruins night vision. When I look away I can’t see anything at all for a bit. It is also going to make it more difficult to see if there is any plate glow as I play with voltages. I will look for replacement LEDs. Are there different kinds of mounting options I need to look for?



You could also just cover it with a decal of some sort. Maybe one of these? 

https://www.redbubble.com/shop/vacuum+tube+stickers


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## Isaacc7

gibosi said:


> You could also just cover it with a decal of some sort. Maybe one of these?
> 
> https://www.redbubble.com/shop/vacuum+tube+stickers


It would have to be pretty opaque but it’s a thought. A friend of mine ended up using black electrician’s tape cover up a blue LED on one of his amps. Blue is the absolute worst color for this sort of thing. It stands out in the day and absolutely bores holes into your skull at night.


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## SonicTrance

Isaacc7 said:


> White looks good when there’s light in the room. In the dark it is blinding. I can’t luxuriate in how good tubes look lit up! On a more serious note white light ruins night vision. When I look away I can’t see anything at all for a bit. It is also going to make it more difficult to see if there is any plate glow as I play with voltages. I will look for replacement LEDs. Are there different kinds of mounting options I need to look for?


What you need to take into account is that the front panel is 10mm thick. So you need a long threaded light holder. Mounting hole is 8mm. 

Disconnecting it is really easy as well. Just cut one, or both, of the wires that runs to it. Be sure to insulate the ends when your done as to not short a thing out.


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## UntilThen

Which light bother you most here? None imo. They are just stars in the universe.


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## Isaacc7

Operating points are important boys and girls. I have been running the 7c5 tubes at 250v 30ma with the idea of taking it easy on the tubes. While I noticed improvements when I switched inputs, output impdance, and to ultra linear, I still wasn’t getting the sound I thought the tubes could give me. It was always a bit on the lightweight side lacking heft in the midrange. Went back and looked at the data sheet. Moved to 285v 35ma and what a difference. It filled in the lower midrange and added a touch of depth. Now we’re cooking! Currently using Tungsol 6c8g inputs. I’ll try triode again tonight and see if my triode/ultra linear hot take holds up.


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## UntilThen

Where are the pictures Isaacc ?


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## Isaacc7 (Nov 12, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Where are the pictures Isaacc ?


I will pictures from time to time. Here’s the current configuration; Sylvania JAN 7c5 Tung Sol 6c8g.


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## UntilThen

It’s a purposeful looking amp and the light is blue.


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## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> It’s a purposeful looking amp and the light is blue.


To the eye it is a cool white. It really is a serious looking amp. I laugh because right now I’m getting all of 5 watts in class A. AB1 goes up to 13 or so but still a lot less than the amp looks lol.


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## Isaacc7

Huh. Apparently I completely misunderstood how ultra linear works. I thought the screen would always see less voltage than the plate by 43%. Wrong. Need to set the plate voltage such that it doesn’t exceed the screen voltage. Glad I noticed this before going to higher power tubes. And lower power too I guess. I’m just glad lol.


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## OctavianH

Isaacc7 said:


> Operating points are important boys and girls. I have been running the 7c5 tubes at 250v 30ma with the idea of taking it easy on the tubes. While I noticed improvements when I switched inputs, output impdance, and to ultra linear, I still wasn’t getting the sound I thought the tubes could give me. It was always a bit on the lightweight side lacking heft in the midrange. Went back and looked at the data sheet. Moved to 285v 35ma and what a difference. It filled in the lower midrange and added a touch of depth. Now we’re cooking! Currently using Tungsol 6c8g inputs. I’ll try triode again tonight and see if my triode/ultra linear hot take holds up.


And now comes the 1M$ question: how do you determine the optimal operating point for a tube type based on the datasheet? OK, I know, you'll tell me "on the linear zone" of the graph, but can you elaborate on this? I mean looking at this graph of 7C5 I marked around 250V->285V and could not see a lot of difference.





So, what parameters are you taking into consideration? The idea is to go towards max ratings?





PS. I know this is not a thread for this but, you started.


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## baronbeehive (Nov 12, 2022)

OctavianH said:


> And now comes the 1M$ question: how do you determine the optimal operating point for a tube type based on the datasheet? OK, I know, you'll tell me "on the linear zone" of the graph, but can you elaborate on this? I mean looking at this graph of 7C5 I marked around 250V->285V and could not see a lot of difference.



You've pretty much got it. The linear points are where the lines are fairly equally spaced and horizontal, hence linear, the non linear points are where they are more irregularly spaced and curved looking, hence non linear. Any point could be selected in this region for least distortion but you have to take into account the max current of the tubes for example so it's necessary to stay within the range of the tube for best performance. There are other factors such as voltage swing but I found this doesn't make as much difference as the best bias point in terms of linearity. The anode and cathode values give the "best" operating point in the "linear zone", but often it's a case of experimenting.





It would be interesting to know, for example, where the operating points in Issaac7 were to produce the difference he found.


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## OctavianH (Nov 12, 2022)

I tried to mark with those red lines 250V and 285V he mentioned and both are in the linear zone.


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## baronbeehive (Nov 12, 2022)

OctavianH said:


> I tried to mark with those red lines 250V and 275V6 he mentioned and both are in the linear zone.


Oh yes, I didn't notice that.





This shows the 2 operating points. The one at 250v is in a slightly more "compressed" region where the lines are closer together, the one at 285v is slightly up towards a less compressed region where the lines are more separated, but both fairly equal in linearity. The one at 285v with the bias point at -15v also has room to swing from -5v to -25 whereas the point at approx -17v can only swing between -9v and -25v approx. There are other factors which could affect it, such as whether the plate current and voltage are optimal for the tube, without going into a long discussion.

My view, *if it was my amp*, would be for a optimal bias point around -6v just looking at the graph, but plate current might be too high. But he should consult Sonic about the amp's operation as I'm sure he has done.


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## Isaacc7

OctavianH said:


> I tried to mark with those red lines 250V and 275V6 he mentioned and both are in the linear zone.


Wow, I ended up writing more than I thought I would about this. TL;DR different combos in the linear zone sound different and run up against limitations of the hardware. 

Yeah, both of those voltages are in the linear zone and if you were building from scratch either could be used in theory. There are a few other things to keep in mind though. The first is an equipment issue. This particular amp has a regulated, variable B+ voltage. It can range from 250v-400v. The trick is that the amp always produces 400v and it is up to the regulator to eat the extra current if I dial down the voltage. There are limits to what the regulator can handle, Tomas says the max it can handle for reliable service is 20w. That means that if I set the voltage to 250v the max I should set the bias current is 30ma. Bumping up the B+ even a little frees up the regulator which allows it to either run cooler or I could bias the tubes a little hotter. It turns out that setting tubes at 250v 30ma maxes out the regulator at 20w. Setting the tubes to 275v 35ma actually drops the load of the regulator to 17.5 watts. Running cooler is better for the electronics long term. 

That brings me to the other thing. The characteristic curves show how a tube is supposed to react as voltage swings back and forth across the range. They are useful in that they can show you the limits of the tube and where it will generate harmonic(?) distortion. The trick is that a tube does not operate in a… uh, vacuum (ugh). The whole audio circuit, including the speakers, is a dynamic electrical system. I’m getting outside my wheelhouse here but I see plenty of discussions of DIY builders talking about dialing in a tube’s settings based off of system performance. Different transformers, different kinds of feedback, different power supplies, etc. will all play a role in what kind of distortion (harmonic, IM, crossover) and how much of it there is at any given operating point. And all of that is evaluated by looking at equipment while running the amp into a resistive load. That is a good approximation of how headphones work in the circuit but a reactive load like speakers adds a whole other level of complexity to how the circuit behaves. 

That is my long winded way of saying that while there may be a range of settings that the tube itself might have a “linear” response it does does not predict how the system will sound. If I were making the amp from scratch I would be able to balance all this stuff out. My amp is a (literal) black box so I have to figure out which settings output the best sound. I have a feeling that each set of output tubes will have a sweet spot of operating point and mode (triode or ultra linear) for my speakers.

After all these years of messing with audio I feel like I have an appreciation of both the engineering required to make things work and the hopeless complexity of the interaction of electricity inside equipment, it’s interaction with speakers, and our brains. All I can do is twiddle knobs till my ape brain likes what it hears.


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## Isaacc7 (Nov 12, 2022)

baronbeehive said:


> Oh yes, I didn't notice that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty sure this graph is for pentode operation, the curves look different for triode and ultra linear. One of the limitations of going by the curves is that you don’t always have curves to reference!   I have been using this website to figure out starting points https://www.vtadiy.com/loadline-calculators/power-stage-calculator/. I have also been looking at the data sheets for the tubes themselves To determine typical and maximum operating points. When I start going further afield with tubes like the 6ar6 and el38 I will rely on the hive mind and max ratings to help set the parameters.


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## OctavianH

Isaacc7 said:


> Wow, I ended up writing more than I thought I would about this. TL;DR different combos in the linear zone sound different and run up against limitations of the hardware.
> 
> Yeah, both of those voltages are in the linear zone and if you were building from scratch either could be used in theory. There are a few other things to keep in mind though. The first is an equipment issue.


Now I understood, many thanks for your detailed reply. I did not knew all those specific construction limitations but it is fascinating. You are lucky to have such a nice amp but it is also, in the end, your merit to ask for something like this. Your journey is also very rewarding for all of us because, at least in my case, I have a lot to learn. I have no idea if other amp with variable operating point exists.


Isaacc7 said:


> Pretty sure this graph is for pentode operation, the curves look different for triode and ultra linear.


This is true, I did not knew in which graph to look for ultralinear, but I wanted to understand if it is a way to predict if, for example, I have tube type A, B or C I have not tried before, based on the datasheet and some graphs and knowing the operating point that tube will have in my amp, tube B would be the perfect match and then go towards B instead of trying all A/B/C. This was somehow my purpose when I asked. This subject is very important for me, while I usually search for different tube types I have not used before and take advantaje of the flexibility of Eternity to try them in my amp, if I can narrow the option list and go forward to the best sounding ones, I would be much in advantage.

And now, if everyone listens to vinyl on expensive systems and post pictures here, I'll put a CD today:





Very nice booklet, vinyl does not have one right?


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## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> .... All I can do is twiddle knobs till my ape brain likes what it hears.


That's what I was trying to say lol.


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## baronbeehive

OctavianH said:


> I have no idea if other amp with variable operating point exists.


I haven't heard of one... except mine lol. But that is hard wired not adjustable any more.
.


OctavianH said:


> Very nice booklet, vinyl does not have one right?


No, I remember the old fashioned sleeve notes though.

Next question, where do you get those Megadeth beer mugs? 🥴


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## OctavianH

baronbeehive said:


> Next question, where do you get those Megadeth beer mugs? 🥴


Ah, the beer mug does not have anything to do with Megadeth, I bought it many years ago from a shop in Hamburg. I do not remember more... somewhere around the center.


----------



## Isaacc7

OctavianH said:


> Now I understood, many thanks for your detailed reply. I did not knew all those specific construction limitations but it is fascinating. You are lucky to have such a nice amp but it is also, in the end, your merit to ask for something like this. Your journey is also very rewarding for all of us because, at least in my case, I have a lot to learn. I have no idea if other amp with variable operating point exists.
> 
> This is true, I did not knew in which graph to look for ultralinear, but I wanted to understand if it is a way to predict if, for example, I have tube type A, B or C I have not tried before, based on the datasheet and some graphs and knowing the operating point that tube will have in my amp, tube B would be the perfect match and then go towards B instead of trying all A/B/C. This was somehow my purpose when I asked. This subject is very important for me, while I usually search for different tube types I have not used before and take advantaje of the flexibility of Eternity to try them in my amp, if I can narrow the option list and go forward to the best sounding ones, I would be much in advantage.
> 
> ...


I mentioned it somewhere on this site but I think there aren’t any variable voltage amplifiers out there because no amp manufacturer wants to deal with idiots blowing up their tubes/amps. I think there was a tacit understanding between Tomas and myself that I am on my own. He has given me the keys but it is up to me to not wreck the thing!

And let’s be clear, the only reason to have an amp made the way mine was is because you put a big emphasis on wanting to try different tubes just for the sake of doing it. If you’re only interested in a good sounding amp there really isn’t any reason to design or pay for the more complicated amp. If you just want to listen to music buy a well made amp suitable for driving whatever you’re going to hook to it and enjoy. My amp is a hobbyist’s amp. Sounding good was table stakes but being able to play with it was why I had a custom amp made for me instead of buying any number of other amps.


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## OctavianH

Isaacc7 said:


> And let’s be clear, the only reason to have an amp made the way mine was is because you put a big emphasis on wanting to try different tubes just for the sake of doing it. If you’re only interested in a good sounding amp there really isn’t any reason to design or pay for the more complicated amp.


Well, that's all I want but honestly, I listen to a lot of music and several recordings demand several types sound signatures to sound at their best. So I stopped believing in good sounding amps an started to believe more in this kind of hardware equalizing I am doing here. OK, it is true that starting to do this I went a little bit further and off topic and I've done more than what was needed, but even in this case, well, I need 3-4 types of sound signatures depending on the music I listen. This is the reason I'll never go towards a non adjustable tube amplifier. For example I'll never listen to Depeche Mode or Massive Attack with the same tube combination like on a Megadeth album. And from time to time I switch to classical or acoustical music. Now, give me that amp where you do not need to tube roll and have all this. LOL


----------



## UntilThen

My mission statement is clear when I ask Tomas to design and build Odyssey - keep it simple & stupid. KISS. It has to sound good with Led Zep, Norah Jones, Beethoven or Hans Zimmer. 

And it's mission accomplished.    Now all I have to do is decide if I want to play with Qobuz, vinyl or CD. If have have more headphones later, it's a decision on which headphone to use.

I've not blown Odyssey up after a year of regular tube rolling. He's still as good as day one.


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## OctavianH

You don't convince me with your 4th tube amp on the queue. Why you need 4 amps if Odyssey can do everything you need?
In my case I also like to keep things simple, to have an amp to rule them all, but to be able to tune everything in that amp.


----------



## UntilThen

I have only 2 amps now. Odyssey for my music listening and Oblivion for Netflix. 

So what drives me to get Telemachus. While I still had Destiny, @xtiva would come around and spend sometime with my setup. He likes how Odyssey sound and so do I. So we were talking that if a 300b amp can be tuned similar to Odyssey but with the 300b tone uniqueness, that would be something. So that's how Telemachus is in the queue now and any minute now I expect Tomas to unveil his Telemachus, which is what mine will look like.

So why 3 Ultrasonic amps. I'm an admirer of Tomas's works by now. It's the tuning. Tonality is right up my alley. Those 3 amps of Oblivion, Odyssey and Telemachus have their own unique tone. One amp will not do it. KT88 and 300b will never be the same and will not work in the same circuit. That's how I end up with 3 Ultrasonic amps. They are all very simple in their own ways and also very customisable. 

The journey is definitely coming to an end. I don't come on here much now and the thrill has climax. Time to do other stuff.


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## OctavianH (Nov 13, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> I have only 2 amps now. Odyssey for my music listening and Oblivion for Netflix.


Oblivion for Netflix. LOL I have a Naim Mu-so on my living room for TV watching and it sounds excellent to my ears. You are at the next level.


UntilThen said:


> So what drives me to get Telemachus. While I still had Destiny, @xtiva would come around and spend sometime with my setup. He likes how Odyssey sound and so do I. So we were talking that if a 300b amp can be tuned similar to Odyssey but with the 300b tone uniqueness, that would be something. So that's how Telemachus is in the queue now and any minute now I expect Tomas to unveil his Telemachus, which is what mine will look like.


I was not criticizing, more trying to justify my continue need for adjusment or flexibility and why I see it a must. But what you said made me wonder if @Isaacc7's Odyssey with external 5V heaters could accomodate somehow via adapters the 300B or we have other design limitations. In other words, 300B needs an amp built for itself or the 5V heaters is the only limitation and we could accomodate it in other designs and obtain that unique sound besides the rest of what we have. I'll never go this path, because of the prohibitive prices and lack of flexibility to roll on the existing designs, but it would be nice to know if there is a middle way: the amp to rule them all.


UntilThen said:


> So why 3 Ultrasonic amps. I'm an admirer of Tomas's works by now. It's the tuning. Tonality is right up my alley. Those 3 amps of Oblivion, Odyssey and Telemachus have their own unique tone. One amp will not do it. KT88 and 300b will never be the same and will not work in the same circuit. That's how I end up with 3 Ultrasonic amps. They are all very simple in their own ways and also very customisable.


While I am on the same boat as you with Tomas's work, for me 2 amps instead of one mean that I'll always have to plug/unplug, exchange interconnects and so on. I hate to do this, but if Tomas can build me an amp in Telemachus case (the biggest as far as I know) which can incorporate 2 designs in the same chasis I'll be tempted. And of course those designs have to be somehow complementary, so I expect it's not possible. Otherwise, I'll remain on reading about your amps.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I was not criticizing, more trying to justify my continue need for adjusment or flexibility and why I see it a must. But what you said made me wonder if @Isaacc7's Odyssey with external 5V heaters could accomodate somehow via adapters the 300B or we have other design limitations. In other words, 300B needs an amp built for itself or the 5V heaters is the only limitation and we could accomodate it in other designs and obtain that unique sound besides the rest of what we have. I'll never go this path, because of the prohibitive prices and lack of flexibility to roll on the existing designs, but it would be nice to know if there is a middle way: the amp to rule them all.



I don't see how you can squeeze direct heated tubes (300b) amd indirect heated tubes (KT88) into a single amp. Have you seen an amp that runs those tubes? I have not. The complexity you build into an amp, the more compromises there will be. If it's even possible.

This is the reason I didn't push to have Telemachus being able to use 300b, 2a3 and 45 tubes.



OctavianH said:


> While I am on the same boat as you with Tomas's work, for me 2 amps instead of one mean that I'll always have to plug/unplug, exchange interconnects and so on. I hate to do this, but if Tomas can build me an amp in Telemachus case (the biggest as far as I know) which can incorporate 2 designs in the same chasis I'll be tempted. And of course those designs have to be somehow complementary, so I expect it's not possible. Otherwise, I'll remain on reading about your amps.



In my setup, Yggdrasil has 3 outputs. One for Oblivion, Odyssey and Telemachus. No unplugging needed. That's why I love Yggdrasil.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> I don't see how you can squeeze direct heated tubes (300b) amd indirect heated tubes (KT88) into a single amp.


Right, I missed this aspect, this clarifies my question. Not possible.


UntilThen said:


> In my setup, Yggdrasil has 3 outputs. One for Oblivion, Odyssey and Telemachus. No unplugging needed. That's why I love Yggdrasil.


I am a fan of Chord DACs but this is one of their problems, they do not provide several outputs. And to own several TT2s and linear power supplies and so  on, well...


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> All I can do is twiddle knobs till my ape brain likes what it hears.


So what knobs exactly can you twiddle on your amp, and which knobs are sliding scale and which are set points only, like on/off?

Also I expect that you can't "twiddle" them while the amp in on?


----------



## Isaacc7

baronbeehive said:


> So what knobs exactly can you twiddle on your amp, and which knobs are sliding scale and which are set points only, like on/off?
> 
> Also I expect that you can't "twiddle" them while the amp in on?



Twiddling knobs are B+ voltage, bias voltage, and if using external supplies heater voltage. All of those can be changed while the amp is on. In fact there’s no way to adjust B+ or bias if the amp is off. 

Binary switches are on/off, headphone/speaker, 4 ohm/8 ohm, and triode/ultra linear. I think the headphone/speaker switch can be done while on but not 100% @SonicTrance what say you? The others should only be switched while amp is off.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Isaacc7 said:


> Twiddling knobs are B+ voltage, bias voltage, and if using external supplies heater voltage. All of those can be changed while the amp is on. In fact there’s no way to adjust B+ or bias if the amp is off.
> 
> Binary switches are on/off, headphone/speaker, 4 ohm/8 ohm, and triode/ultra linear. I think the headphone/speaker switch can be done while on but not 100% @SonicTrance what say you? The others should only be switched while amp is off.


Actually based on what the Switches do I'd expect that you can switch all of them while the device is on.
At least it's that way on all amps I know


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> I don't see how you can squeeze direct heated tubes (300b) amd indirect heated tubes (KT88) into a single amp. Have you seen an amp that runs those tubes? I have not. The complexity you build into an amp, the more compromises there will be. If it's even possible.
> 
> This is the reason I didn't push to have Telemachus being able to use 300b, 2a3 and 45 tubes.
> 
> ...


Well, not KT88 and 300b but the Cabernet preamp from Supratek can be ordered in the dual configuration. That lets you run with either the indirectly heated 6sn7 or the directly heated 300b (and maybe other triodes like 2a3 or 45). 

Tomas has told me that directly heated pentodes like the 2e22 or 2e24 are fine on my amp. The heater is DC so shouldn’t make any difference if that is internal or external. I think the bigger problem is that the 300b is a triode. I can imagine an adapter being made that could be used as long as you are using external heater supply and the amp is in triode mode. I can also imagine that there could be catastrophic results if you forgot to switch to triode. I feel like I’m risking my tubes in the long term because I’m sure I will screw a setting up eventually. But my output tubes range in price from $10-$60. If I blew up a pair of even “cheap” 300b tubes I would cry!

Interestingly, on monolithic Magnetics site the output transformers are specced to be used with either 300b or KT88. So there’s one big thing to allow both tubes it be used out of the way. I think a bigger issue is that pentodes typically need to have some feedback applied to perform at their best while the 300b does not. So I think that even if you worked out the other issues the circuit would always be compromised for at least one of them.


----------



## Isaacc7

ThanatosVI said:


> Actually based on what the Switches do I'd expect that you can switch all of them while the device is on.
> At least it's that way on all amps I know


Tomas warned not to flip 4/8 ohm and the triode/pentode switch. That makes sense to me since you’d be switching contacts on the transformer. At the very least I would imagine it creating an almighty thump in the speakers. 

Oh, also forgot about the switches for the bias meters. each meter has a switch to allow me to see and adjust the bias current of each tube. Those can be switched while the amp is on of course.


----------



## OctavianH

Isaacc7 said:


> Oh, also forgot about the switches for the bias meters. each meter has a switch to allow me to see and adjust the bias current of each tube. Those can be switched while the amp is on of course.


Depends on the specific build. You are right that bias meters can be switched with amp on, but Tomas advised me to unplug headphones while doing this. But in my case I switch also channels (left->right). From what I've seen in your amp those switches are for the same output channel.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Isaacc7 said:


> Tomas warned not to flip 4/8 ohm and the triode/pentode switch. That makes sense to me since you’d be switching contacts on the transformer. At the very least I would imagine it creating an almighty thump in the speakers.
> 
> Oh, also forgot about the switches for the bias meters. each meter has a switch to allow me to see and adjust the bias current of each tube. Those can be switched while the amp is on of course.


He will know, so if he warned you about it you're right to listen to him.

From my experience with Triode/Ultralinear Switches they always savely worked during Operation (Cayin/PrimaLuna amps)

And impedance Switches also are save to use most of the time (Cayin amps, Feliks Envy, etc)


----------



## baronbeehive (Nov 13, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> .... I think a bigger issue is that pentodes typically need to have some feedback applied to perform at their best while the 300b does not. So I think that even if you worked out the other issues the circuit would always be compromised for at least one of them.


Maybe a switchable feedback circuit... this just shows how building in so many adjustable parameters complicates the build though.

How do you adjust the bias using the switches?


----------



## Isaacc7

baronbeehive said:


> Maybe a switchable feedback circuit... this just shows how building in so many adjustable parameters complicates the build though.
> 
> How do you adjust the bias using the switches?


There are amps that have feedback you can dial in. The Cary 805 (which confusingly used 845 or 211 tubes) allowed you to dial in 0-10 db of feedback I think. The switch toggles which of the tubes you are measuring of the pair.


----------



## Isaacc7

Think I’ve got a handle on the 7c5/6v6 tube in this amp. In Ultralinear at least. Had started at 250v 30ma and it sounded clear but lightweight. Moved to 275v 35ma and that filled in the lower midrange. But it sounded “rough” for lack of a better word. I have not been able to find any manufacturer’s published curves for the 6v6 in Ultralinear so I just started to look for people’s experiences. This guy went to a lot of trouble and came up with some concrete settings to try. 

http://www.diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/6V6-SE-UL-Bias-Optimization/

He found the lowest distortion with the 250v 35ma combo. Alas, the regulator in my amp can’t handle that load long term. So I went with the second best 275v 30ma. This is definitely the best I’ve heard so far. Now I have the clarity and solidness I had heard in different combos at the same time. Now, with cv1102 inputs, the sound is “sweet.” I’ll fool around some more with triode mode with this tube. The guy that did the work on the 6v6 said to use the same chart for the 6aq5 but to observe the 250v max limit. Looks like I won‘t be able to use the 6aq5 in Ultralinear Hopefully I’ll find a setting I like in triode. 

I think finding good operating points will be the tricky thing with this amp. Want to run a 6l6gc, el34, or kt88 in triode or ultralinear? As soon as you drift off the beaten path you’re supposed to make your own measurements. I’m digging around DIY forums for starting operating points for things like el38 and 6ar6. There are a lot of posts that are essentially, “Oh, tube x? That’s pretty much like mainstream tube y but different. Watch out!” 

But I guess this is what I wanted so no complaining right? Lol. I have a feeling my modus operandi will be to nail the output tube settings and then start the input tube rolling.


----------



## SonicTrance

Isaacc7 said:


> I think finding good operating points will be the tricky thing with this amp. Want to run a 6l6gc, el34, or kt88 in triode or ultralinear? As soon as you drift off the beaten path you’re supposed to make your own measurements. I’m digging around DIY forums for starting operating points for things like el38 and 6ar6. There are a lot of posts that are essentially, “Oh, tube x? That’s pretty much like mainstream tube y but different. Watch out!”


If you wanna make it real easy for you then start off by setting the negative grid bias as much below zero as possible (around -60V to -70V and adjust the B+ where you want it. Then plug it the tubes and start turning the grid bias knobs while watching the meters. Make sure you flick the meter toggle switches from time to time if the tubes are unbalanced. This is the fastest way of biasing new set of tube. But be careful!

If anyone reading this who has an Eternity or Infinity this don't apply to you!


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> Think I’ve got a handle on the 7c5/6v6 tube in this amp. In Ultralinear at least. Had started at 250v 30ma and it sounded clear but lightweight. Moved to 275v 35ma and that filled in the lower midrange. But it sounded “rough” for lack of a better word. I have not been able to find any manufacturer’s published curves for the 6v6 in Ultralinear so I just started to look for people’s experiences. This guy went to a lot of trouble and came up with some concrete settings to try.
> 
> http://www.diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/6V6-SE-UL-Bias-Optimization/
> 
> ...


Looks like he went to a lot of trouble in finding his ideal points. It just shows what a bother it is, and I think some experimentation is useful because some points will appeal to some and others to other people who like more distortion for example.

Interesting what you have come up with, and I didn't know that the differences were so profound.


----------



## Isaacc7

baronbeehive said:


> Looks like he went to a lot of trouble in finding his ideal points. It just shows what a bother it is, and I think some experimentation is useful because some points will appeal to some and others to other people who like more distortion for example.
> 
> Interesting what you have come up with, and I didn't know that the differences were so profound.


“Profound” to the likes of ourselves lol. This is a good amp for obsessing over the sound. In theory once I dial in a quality I like I’ll just kick back and listen to music right?


----------



## Isaacc7

Now that I’ve figured out the right settings for the 6v6 (7c5) and done some listening I feel I can give my initial thoughts about the amp. In comparison to my SEP amp my Odyssey sounds much more precise. Things are more clearly defined in the soundstage, the bass is noticeably tighter, and the timbres seem to be better delineated. With more power I can also play clean louder. It’s pretty much what I was expecting from a push pull amp. With these particular tubes triode and ultralinear sound obviously different. Triode mode sound can be summed up as “round” while ultralinear is ”clean.” We’ll see if the differences hold true with other tubes. I’ll talk about those in the tube rolling thread. 

As I mentioned before, using the right operating point is important to get the best sound. So far, with a sample size of one, the official rating is the best sounding. There isn’t an official recommendation for ultralinear for the 6v6 so that took some research. Both triode and ultralinear operating points are easily found for a lot of my other output tubes. So the 807, KT66, 7581a, EL34, and EL84 will be easy to set I think. Other tubes like el38, 6ar6, and gu50 will require more experimentation. 

I have a few niggles with the amp. I have already talked about the white status light. Have to keep my eyes closed tight for nighttime listening and deprives me of the full effect of tube glow at night. I do wish the regulator could give me just a little bit more wiggle room at the bottom of the voltage range. If run at the minimum 250v the highest I can run the current is 30ma. With just a little bit more, up to 35ma it would give me the flexibility to run lower rated tubes like the 6aq5 by the book. Last bit of criticism is that while the voltage meter looks cool (it really does) it lacks resolution. The lowest setting of the amp starts in the middle of the range and so the rest of the scale is compressed. Once I start using tubes over 300v a +/- 10v range probably isn’t that big a deal but I worry a bit with the lower voltage tubes. It would have been nice to be able to use a volt meter to set the anode voltage. 

So yeah, some niggles. What I don’t have any problems with are noise, build quality, and most importantly sound quality. Everything just oozes quality. All the switches and knobs feel great, it’s a treat to manipulate the settings. The amp looks amazing, even people who aren’t into audio will appreciate it. This amp has transformed my system which was exactly what I was looking for. I have a SE amp and so I wanted to add what a push pull amp can give me. It is living up to it being the last push pull amp I ever buy. I have no idea how big a difference the transformers make compared to loess expensive ones but I figured that if this was going to be the last one why take the chance?

So yeah, very happy. I’ll be talking about sound more in the tube rolling thread.


----------



## SonicTrance (Nov 16, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> I have a few niggles with the amp. I have already talked about the white status light. Have to keep my eyes closed tight for nighttime listening and deprives me of the full effect of tube glow at night. I do wish the regulator could give me just a little bit more wiggle room at the bottom of the voltage range. If run at the minimum 250v the highest I can run the current is 30ma. With just a little bit more, up to 35ma it would give me the flexibility to run lower rated tubes like the 6aq5 by the book. Last bit of criticism is that while the voltage meter looks cool (it really does) it lacks resolution. The lowest setting of the amp starts in the middle of the range and so the rest of the scale is compressed. Once I start using tubes over 300v a +/- 10v range probably isn’t that big a deal but I worry a bit with the lower voltage tubes. It would have been nice to be able to use a volt meter to set the anode voltage.


You can try 250V @ 35mA is see how hot it gets.  The adjustable regulator FET then needs to dissipate 21W. It has plenty of heat sink surface area so should work fine. My recommendation is settings I know work long term.
Running tubes “by the book” isn’t always ideal either. Those settings are most often right at max plate dissipation. As long as you run the tube in a linear region you’re good to go.

Also, tubes have huge tolerances. Say it says in the datasheet that a specific tube has max anode voltage of 250. If you put 260 or even 270 on it you’re most likely fine. It’s the total anode dissipation that matters the most.

Anyway, I’m glad you’re enjoying the amp! 

Edit: My point was that it doesn’t have to sound better just because you follow the “typical operations” from the datasheets.


----------



## Isaacc7 (Nov 17, 2022)

SonicTrance said:


> You can try 250V @ 35mA is see how hot it gets.  The adjustable regulator FET then needs to dissipate 21W. It has plenty of heat sink surface area so should work fine. My recommendation is settings I know work long term.
> Running tubes “by the book” isn’t always ideal either. Those settings are most often right at max plate dissipation. As long as you run the tube in a linear region you’re good to go.
> 
> Also, tubes have huge tolerances. Say it says in the datasheet that a specific tube has max anode voltage of 250. If you put 260 or even 270 on it you’re most likely fine. It’s the total anode dissipation that matters the most.
> ...


Tubes can certainly handle over voltage but it ages them more quickly. I'm more worried about the long term effect on the solid state parts of the amp though. Tubes I can replace but if the regulator fries I gotta get it repaired somehow. Realistically, I switch things around so much that I probably don't have to worry about long term effects of any given tube lol.

Incidentally, I was a little worried that a push pul amp might homogenize the sound of tubes. Switching to another set of 6v6 times disabused me of that worry. These sound completely different. They also seem to benefit from lower settings. Looks like experiments with operating points is back on the menu!


----------



## Thaddy

@Isaacc7 it's very interesting reading about your impressions.  What headphones do you listen with?


----------



## Isaacc7

Thaddy said:


> @Isaacc7 it's very interesting reading about your impressions.  What headphones do you listen with?


Believe it or not I don’t use headphones. I came across this site looking for tube information. That led to me not only buying a lot of tubes but also finding Ultrasonic Studios. This amp would be absurdly powerful for headphone use. I had Tomas put a headphone jack in anyway because why not. I’ll probably get some headphones eventually.


----------



## OctavianH

Isaacc7 said:


> Believe it or not I don’t use headphones. I came across this site looking for tube information. That led to me not only buying a lot of tubes but also finding Ultrasonic Studios. This amp would be absurdly powerful for headphone use. I had Tomas put a headphone jack in anyway because why not. I’ll probably get some headphones eventually.


You are the perfect user of Head-Fi, one not using headphones. LOL


----------



## Isaacc7

OctavianH said:


> You are the perfect user of Head-Fi, one not using headphones. LOL


I will say that I am a bit jealous of headphone users in the fact that it is much easier for many people here to have heard and used the same headphones. Makes gear reviews a lot more relatable than reviews using speakers. There’s no way most people could have heard, or afforded, all the different speakers used by reviewers. Amps are also much more likely to impose their personality on headphones because of how easy a load they produce. Speakers‘ responses to amplifiers are all over the place.


----------



## baronbeehive (Nov 17, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> I will say that I am a bit jealous of headphone users in the fact that it is much easier for many people here to have heard and used the same headphones. Makes gear reviews a lot more relatable than reviews using speakers. There’s no way most people could have heard, or afforded, all the different speakers used by reviewers. Amps are also much more likely to impose their personality on headphones because of how easy a load they produce. Speakers‘ responses to amplifiers are all over the place.


I use both. The evening session starts with speakers, which I prefer, then at the 9 oclock watershed it's on to headphones so as keep on best terms with the long suffering neighbours 😇 .

It's why I have 2 amps, this was before the Ultrasonic era when it was practically impossible to get an amp that does both.


----------



## UntilThen

I have used both speakers and headphones equally but for pure unadulterated ear pleasure, nothing beats Odyssey moving the invisible stealth magnets of Susvara.


----------



## UntilThen

One of the rare times these days listening to headphone. I am playing 'Bird on a Wire' by Jennifer Warnes, Famous Blue Raincoat 20th Anniversary 24K Gold Edition CD. 

I wanted to blast it with Odyssey but the most I could get the volume to is at 1pm. Anything more could be carnal damage.  

An experience I will cherish because what I am hearing out of Susvara is insanely musical, punchy and solid !


----------



## OctavianH

You should listen to this then:



Sounds quite good on my amp. Too bad I'm not usually listening to jazz, seems Eternity loves it with GEC ATS25 and Brimar 6SN7GT.


----------



## LoryWiv (Nov 18, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> One of the rare times these days listening to headphone. I am playing 'Bird on a Wire' by Jennifer Warnes, Famous Blue Raincoat 20th Anniversary 24K Gold Edition CD.
> 
> I wanted to blast it with Odyssey but the most I could get the volume to is at 1pm. Anything more could be carnal damage.
> 
> An experience I will cherish because what I am hearing out of Susvara is insanely musical, punchy and solid !


For another unique and beautifully recorded take on Leonard Cohen, try Joel Frederiksen as below. It is sonic delight on quality headphones through a great tube amp, Euforia AE in my case, Odyssey for you:


----------



## UntilThen

When your setup is reasonably good, a good recording on any format will really shine. This Hell Freezes Over on JVC xrcd extended resolution is an example. How did a band get so many good singers? Listening to Love Will Keep Us Alive sung by Timothy B. Schmit.


----------



## UntilThen

Another superb recording. 24k Gold Collectors Edition HDCD. There was a time before I got into tubes, I was buying CDs instead. That was when I was in car audio and car still use CD player instead of digital streaming.


----------



## UntilThen

This morning listening session and choice of tubes. Odyssey gives me a choice of which tubes to roll. It's limitless and after one year, I'm still amazed that all combination sound stellar. 20th Nov 2022 and so close to Black Friday and Christmas. Have a splendid day !

Tubes in attendance - Telefunken ECC801s (on the box I wrote ECC081s ), GEC KT66 and Sittard 5AR4 / GZ34.



Listening to Bruce Springsteen - Only the Strong Survive. In particular this song - Nightshift. Remember this song by the Commodores, sung by lead singer Walter Orange as a tribute to Jackie Wilson and Marvin Gaye both of whom died in 1984.


----------



## UntilThen

Springsteen's car. I want it.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Springsteen's car. I want it.


Seems like The Boss should be driving a Boss.


----------



## OctavianH

Here is too much silence. What's the "November" amp?


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Here is too much silence. What's the "November" amp?



Tomas's Telemachus with Monolith transformers.


----------



## ThanatosVI

UntilThen said:


> Tomas's Telemachus with Monolith transformers.


Tell me more about these Monolith transformers


----------



## UntilThen

ThanatosVI said:


> Tell me more about these Monolith transformers



I'm a rookie. Only knew about them because Tomas one day sounded out to me about using Monolith instead of Sowter because of the incredibly long wait times for the latter's transformers.

This is their website. They are based in Belgium and started by Dr. Ward De Ceuninck and Yves Pexsters.
https://www.monolithmagnetics.com/about

Tomas Mayer (VinylSavor) does use Monolith transformers but like all good tube amp builders, they use others as well. He wouldn't be drawn on who is better because they are all respectable and well known transformers builders.

I still think that Sowter is incredible in it's contribution to how Odyssey sound but of course we know that transformer in itself does not make the amp wonderful sounding. It's the designer.


----------



## UntilThen

Tomas, you have 6 more days to display the 'new' Telemachus.   Excitement bounds for me.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Tomas, you have 6 more days to display the 'new' Telemachus.   Excitement bounds for me.


Or to tell us you took a break and drank beer everyday. 😁


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Or to tell us you took a break and drank beer everyday. 😁



He's entitled to some beer because he has been producing an amp every month for sometime now.


----------



## UntilThen

Tomorrow night I get to hear Susvara with Enleum AMP-23R in comparison with Odyssey. Plus I get to test out the Philips replica Psvane EL34PH.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Plus I get to test out the Philips replica Psvane EL34PH.


I am very interested in what you will discover, please share this with us.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I am very interested in what you will discover, please share this with us.



The Psvane EL34PH was talked about in the Auris Nirvana thread so I have to hear it for myself, in comparison with my Miniwatt wonders.


----------



## SonicTrance

UntilThen said:


> Tomas, you have 6 more days to display the 'new' Telemachus.   Excitement bounds for me.


Unfortunately, due to some health issues it’s going to be somewhat delayed. It’s mostly done but as of now I can’t really work on it much.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> Unfortunately, due to some health issues it’s going to be somewhat delayed. It’s mostly done but as of now I can’t really work on it much.



Awww no worries. Get well soon.


----------



## UntilThen

The day that Enleum amp-23R came for a visit. I had known very little about this amp. Neither the price or what I was expecting. Of course there is the thought, how will it compare to Odyssey. For the purpose of this short comparison, Yggdrasil is the dac and Susvara is the headphone. Cable is a custom made pure silver that my friend made himself. He's getting good at this art.

With no expectatons from the Enleum, my reaction on first listen with Susvara is wow. This is easily the best solid state headphone amp I've ever heard and it drove Susvara with ease. Volume is not even at 12 oclock. Clarity is superb and soundstage is wide. As wide as I would like it. There's also a pitch black background that just makes the music pop out. I was listening to Keith Don't Go by Nils Lofgren and the guitar sound is supreme. On Jennifer Warnes' Rock You Gently from the Hunter album, it was sheer pleasure to listen to. I wouldn't call this amp warm, neither would I call it bright. It has lovely timbre and tonally it's like it has some tube DNA.

Switching to Odyssey with the same songs and I had to smile that Odyssey went head to head with Enleum for sheer clarity and details. However now I'm getting real 3D presentation and the texture is swooning. Mid bass and lower bass are also presented better on Odyssey. As much as I like what I hear from Susvara out of Enleum, I just like it much more with Odyssey. Therein lies my firm belief that Susvara needs a tube amp and not just any tube amp.  

FWIW, Enluem is much much better that Sparko Ares, Burson Soloist 3xp, Phonitor X, Auralic Taurus Mk2 and Violectric v281. Of course after I have done my listening then I google to find out the price because my friend wouldn't tell me.  https://jaguaraudio.com/product/enleum-amp-23r/

That's ok. It don't matter. I still prefer Odyssey with Susvara and there's Telemachus coming, which should be very interesting.


----------



## UntilThen

So while I was testing out Enleum amp-23r, I also took the time to compare Psvane EL34PH vs Philips Miniwatt EL34 metal base.

On first listen, the Psvane sounded astonishingly clear and I was impressed. It is really not bad at all. However once I got the Miniwatt EL34 metal base into Odyssey, it is very obvious I was comparing expensive red wine with the cheaper ones.  What did I really expect? $200 for the pair of Psvane vs the $1000 Miniwatt EL34 metal base. I could convince myself that the Psvane is just as good but I can't. There's an unmistakable smoothness in NOS EL34 that will do your ears a lot of good in long listening session. Timbre and tone is where NOS EL34 shine and no current production EL34 can come close.

Picture of the Psvane EL34PH in Odyssey.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

UntilThen said:


> The day that Enleum amp-23R came for a visit. I had known very little about this amp. Neither the price or what I was expecting. Of course there is the thought, how will it compare to Odyssey. For the purpose of this short comparison, Yggdrasil is the dac and Susvara is the headphone. Cable is a custom made pure silver that my friend made himself. He's getting good at this art.
> 
> With no expectatons from the Enleum, my reaction on first listen with Susvara is wow. This is easily the best solid state headphone amp I've ever heard and it drove Susvara with ease. Volume is not even at 12 oclock. Clarity is superb and soundstage is wide. As wide as I would like it. There's also a pitch black background that just makes the music pop out. I was listening to Keith Don't Go by Nils Lofgren and the guitar sound is supreme. On Jennifer Warnes' Rock You Gently from the Hunter album, it was sheer pleasure to listen to. I wouldn't call this amp warm, neither would I call it bright. It has lovely timbre and tonally it's like it has some tube DNA.
> 
> ...


Enleum is such nice amp for SS, but for me Susvara love tubes. Either Telemachus or Oblivion is my preferable choice (easily).


----------



## UntilThen

TheMiddleSky said:


> Enleum is such nice amp for SS, but for me Susvara love tubes. Either Telemachus or Oblivion is my preferable choice (easily).



Ah ha, someone did agree with me. 

This is what I said.
_Therein lies my firm belief that Susvara needs a tube amp and not just any tube amp._


----------



## UntilThen

26th Nov 2022 something happen that lift my listening experience even more. Today I reinstated Roon because they made me an offer I cannot refuse. $2 for 3 months subscription, thereafter revert back to yearly subscription. So I gave them my $2 and viola.... the first song was magic ! It's a japanese song.  Roon does sound so much better plus I have my own flac files and all of Qobuz all in one place, controlled by Roon. Tempted to bring in Tidal again but I ain't giving them my money yet unless they offer me a deal like Roon.

I bought this CD in Japan in 2010 and I'm in love with it ever since. No idea what she is singing but sounds good !


Secondly, I started using Telefunken ECC801s (driver) and Telefunken EL156 (power) again. My my, I had forgotten how good these EL156 power tubes are. Takes Odyssey further to the side of neutral but the tube tones is oh so special. There's more power from these tubes compared to KT88 and that says a lot because KT88 ain't no kitten.

So here's Odyssey on a Sat night somewhere down under, lit up by the southern cross stars.



The Southern Cross stars.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> 26th Nov 2022 something happen that lift my listening experience even more. Today I reinstated Roon because they made me an offer I cannot refuse. $2 for 3 months subscription, thereafter revert back to yearly subscription. So I gave them my $2 and viola.... the first song was magic ! It's a japanese song.  Roon does sound so much better plus I have my own flac files and all of Qobuz all in one place, controlled by Roon. Tempted to bring in Tidal again but I ain't giving them my money yet unless they offer me a deal like Roon.
> 
> I bought this CD in Japan in 2010 and I'm in love with it ever since. No idea what she is singing but sounds good


I like Chinese/Japanese, and Eastern music in general too. How about this version of All Along The Watchtower: 
I think she's Korean.


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I like Chinese/Japanese, and Eastern music in general too. How about this version of All Along The Watchtower:



That instrument is called the Guzheng, a very traditional chinese instrument.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> I like Chinese/Japanese, and Eastern music in general too. How about this version of All Along The Watchtower:
> I think she's Korean.



LOL!  All Along The Watchtower is a Jimi Hendrix tune, not Bob Dylan.  Good 'ol YouTube. 🤣


----------



## baronbeehive

bcowen said:


> LOL!  All Along The Watchtower is a *Jimi Hendrix* tune, not Bob Dylan.  Good 'ol YouTube. 🤣


THE definitive version LOL.


----------



## Isaacc7

bcowen said:


> LOL!  All Along The Watchtower is a Jimi Hendrix tune, not Bob Dylan.  Good 'ol YouTube. 🤣


Nah, Jimi covered it and made it his but it is Dylan’s song.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Nah, Jimi covered it and made it his but it is Dylan’s song.



That's right.

_And while the song first appeared on Dylan’s 1967 album, it has also been featured on a number of his greatest hits records and has been covered by several artists from Dave Matthews to Jimi Hendrix._

Source
https://americansongwriter.com/all-along-the-watchtower-lyrics-meaning-bob-dylan/


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> Nah, Jimi covered it and made it his but it is Dylan’s song.


Apparently Dylan preferred Hendrix's version to his own.


----------



## UntilThen

I have the CD.


----------



## UntilThen

I've just heard Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrick, U2 and Neil Young's version of the Watchtower. Whilst they are all good, I prefer Dylan's original version.


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> Nah, Jimi covered it and made it his but it is Dylan’s song.


Ahh.  Learn something new every day.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Ahh.  Learn something new every day on the golf course.



FTFY.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> FTFY.


LOL!  Yes, I learn every time I play that I don't know how to play.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Yes, I learn every time I play that I don't know how to play.



That's because you're mesmerised by what you see. Focus !!!


----------



## Isaacc7

I really like the way Tomas used switches for external supplies. Leave the switches up and the internal power supply provides 6v to the heaters (with a 16 amp limit!) when I turn on the amp. If I flip a switch to the down position it uses the external power supply. Not only does the switch provide great tactile feedback but it allows me to keep the external supplies turned on. When I flip the switch back to the up position the circuit is broken and the supplies don’t put out any power. When you use an external supply with a socket adapter instead of feeding the amp directly the supply provides power until you turn it off no matter what state the amp is in. 

One of my supplies can go up 30v and the other up to 14v. I’ll probably get another one of the 30v versions. Not only does it go higher, it’s easier to set and is a little smaller too.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> I really like the way Tomas used switches for external supplies. Leave the switches up and the internal power supply provides 6v to the heaters (with a 16 amp limit!) when I turn on the amp. If I flip a switch to the down position it uses the external power supply. Not only does the switch provide great tactile feedback but it allows me to keep the external supplies turned on. When I flip the switch back to the up position the circuit is broken and the supplies don’t put out any power. When you use an external supply with a socket adapter instead of feeding the amp directly the supply provides power until you turn it off no matter what state the amp is in.
> 
> One of my supplies can go up 30v and the other up to 14v. I’ll probably get another one of the 30v versions. Not only does it go higher, it’s easier to set and is a little smaller too.



Reminds me of the days of Feliks Audio Elise where were using external power supply to heat 12v drivers. Up until recently I still have that but I threw them away.

On the Glenn OTL amp that I had, there is a switch to select 6.3, 12.6 and 25.2 v drivers.


----------



## Thaddy

What's on the menu for this month?  Tomas' personal build correct?  Very much looking forward to seeing what he comes up with for himself!


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> Reminds me of the days of Feliks Audio Elise where were using external power supply to heat 12v drivers. Up until recently I still have that but I threw them away.
> 
> On the Glenn OTL amp that I had, there is a switch to select 6.3, 12.6 and 25.2 v drivers.


I already have some 11n7 and 16gk6 that I will try. Will eventually track down some 13d1 as well.


----------



## SonicTrance

Thaddy said:


> What's on the menu for this month?  Tomas' personal build correct?  Very much looking forward to seeing what he comes up with for himself!


That is correct! But is somewhat delayed because of transformer issues (again but not Monolith this time). But mostly because I need to slow thing down a notch. It became too much stress for me to first work 100%, have time to workout, hang out with my girl and also push one amp per month. So, from now on I'm building 2 amps every 3 months instead.


----------



## Thaddy

Take as much time as you need!  I have zero problem waiting a bit more.


----------



## UntilThen

SonicTrance said:


> That is correct! But is somewhat delayed because of transformer issues (again but not Monolith this time). But mostly because I need to slow thing down a notch. It became too much stress for me to first work 100%, have time to workout, hang out with my girl and also push one amp per month. So, from now on I'm building 2 amps every 3 months instead.



All good Tomas. You need to slow down and have time for yourself. As for me, it's not like I have no amps here. In fact I'm pretty amplified! 

See here, it's pure silver.


----------



## UntilThen

A new high end cable is born. This one is about 3k. Don't play play. Serious high end stuff.


----------



## ThanatosVI

UntilThen said:


> A new high end cable is born. This one is about 3k. Don't play play. Serious high end stuff.


What can you tell us about material, gauge and Strand count?


----------



## xtiva

UntilThen said:


> A new high end cable is born. This one is about 3k. Don't play play. Serious high end stuff.


looks stunning


----------



## triod750

Looks like the cable my grandmother had on her wall-hanged telephone  .


----------



## UntilThen

Your grandmother is ahead of her times. You should learn from her.


----------



## UntilThen

ThanatosVI said:


> What can you tell us about material, gauge and Strand count?



Before I talk about those, I'll talk about how it sound. When I was first given this, I was sceptical because it didn't look as good as Norne or Forza cable but I gave it a listen anyway. Well well I was very surprised on first listen at how smooth and lively it sounded. Bass is tauter and more pronounced than Forza Noir Hybrid HPC.

Then I learned that it is 1.8mm thick OFC Copper litz. Don't know what gauge. I was told how time consuming it is to strip it of it's covering and sleeving it with the fabric and then comes the even more time consuming part of braiding it. Finally soldering it. As for material and connectors, the choice is yours but basically the sonics comes from the cable material and solder workmanship. 

So the expensive amount that you pay for a Norne cable comes from the time consuming workmanship. The material cost is but a fraction of the total cost. I have to start learning how to make my own cable. The TOTL prices of so called high end cables these days are outrageous. They are almost half the cost of Susvara.

Prior to this, I have always favoured a pure silver cable for Susvara. I was very surprised that I actually like how a well made pure copper cable sound. Forza Noir Hybrid HPC is a hybrid of silver and copper, as is the Susvara stock cable.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Before I talk about those, I'll talk about how it sound. When I was first given this, I was sceptical because it didn't look as good as Norne or Forza cable but I gave it a listen anyway. Well well I was very surprised on first listen at how smooth and lively it sounded. Bass is tauter and more pronounced than Forza Noir Hybrid HPC.
> 
> Then I learned that it is 1.8mm thick OFC Copper litz. Don't know what gauge. I was told how time consuming it is to strip it of it's covering and sleeving it with the fabric and then comes the even more time consuming part of braiding it. Finally soldering it. As for material and connectors, the choice is yours but basically the sonics comes from the cable material and solder workmanship.
> 
> ...


It's probably a thick cross sectional area to give those improved sonics, especially better bass.


----------



## baronbeehive

SonicTrance said:


> That is correct! But is somewhat delayed because of transformer issues (again but not Monolith this time). But mostly because I need to slow thing down a notch. It became too much stress for me to first work 100%, have time to workout, hang out with my girl and also push one amp per month. So, from now on I'm building 2 amps every 3 months instead.


Don't know how you manage to get all that done in 24 hours lol .


----------



## ThanatosVI

UntilThen said:


> Then I learned that it is 1.8mm thick OFC Copper litz.


In total or per polarity?


----------



## UntilThen

ThanatosVI said:


> In total or per polarity?



@xtiva ? Tough questions I leave it to the astronauts.


----------



## xtiva

UntilThen said:


> @xtiva ? Tough questions I leave it to the astronauts.


Not sure what exactly is asked...  but it is each cable has 1.8mm thick and 4 cables were used..


----------



## ThanatosVI

xtiva said:


> Not sure what exactly is asked...  but it is each cable has 1.8mm thick and 4 cables were used..


So about 4x13awg that's ****in massive - I like it


----------



## UntilThen

ThanatosVI said:


> So about 4x13awg that's ****in massive - I like it



What is the normal thickness usually?


----------



## ThanatosVI

UntilThen said:


> What is the normal thickness usually?


There is no such thing as "normal" here.
Many stock cables have 21awg or smaller.
Many aftermarket cables offer 19 awg or 17 for the thicker stuff. Q

To be clear, I'm talking about wire only, without shielding and sleeves.


----------



## xtiva

ThanatosVI said:


> To be clear, I'm talking about wire only, without shielding and sleeves.


Wouldn't know what the actual conductor diameter is.. would guess about half the cable diameter? 0.9mm


----------



## Isaacc7

I mentioned it in the pentode thread but figured I should say something here too. Turns out that output tubes can indeed sound very different in different circuits and modes of operation. In my single ended pentode the Sylvania JAN 7c5 is a very balanced, slightly warm tube. In my Odyssey they are a very clear but forward sounding tube. Ultimately I found them fatiguing no matter which input tubes I used. 

On the other hand the metal RCA 6f6 sounded dreadfully thin and brittle in my SEP amp. In Odyssey you could almost call them lush. If their curves are anything like the 6k6 I bet I’ve got them mashed up against the edge of their response curves and probably have’s a healthy dose of 2nd harmonic distortion. 

Can’t tell if this is a good thing or a bad thing lol. It’ll be a bit annoying if some of the tubes I spent good money on turn out to not sound all that hot in the new amp. I guess experimenting was why I had the amp made so time to embrace the adventure!


----------



## OctavianH

I told you to wait.


----------



## normie610

ThanatosVI said:


> So about 4x13awg that's ****in massive - I like it


Holy cow!!! That’s freakin’ thick! Me love thick cables 😁 my DHC C15 S-mod (I know it’s quite a mouthful) is already at 15.3 AWG and super thick, can’t imagine how thick this monster 13 AWG cable is.


----------



## ThanatosVI (Nov 30, 2022)

normie610 said:


> Holy cow!!! That’s freakin’ thick! Me love thick cables 😁 my DHC C15 S-mod (I know it’s quite a mouthful) is already at 15.3 AWG and super thick, can’t imagine how thick this monster 13 AWG cable is.


It has been clarified since then, that this measurement was with shielding and sleeve.
The wire itself was estimated to ~19awg (half the diameter)

Actually I should have expected that. Anything bigger than 15-16awg per polarity doesn't physically fit into most connectors anymore

Edit:
I also checked the DHC C15 S-mod out, this looks like a cable to my taste.
I also bugged Trevor with something similar, let's see how that goes.


----------



## DecentLevi

Would anyone have an opinion on whether feedback switch would still do anything to the sound, even on an amp without TR/UL mode? I'm having Tomas convert my Finyssey  to an Odyssey for several reasons, and he said feedback mode is only useful if you have TR/UL mode, though I'm wondering if it may still yield interesting results.


----------



## UntilThen

DecentLevi said:


> Would anyone have an opinion on whether feedback switch would still do anything to the sound, even on an amp without TR/UL mode? I'm having Tomas convert my Finyssey  to an Odyssey for several reasons, and he said feedback mode is only useful if you have TR/UL mode, though I'm wondering if it may still yield interesting results.



How is the conversion done? With a new chassis and reusing whatever parts possible? Odyssey in my mind, is the most beautiful sounding tube amp I've ever heard.


----------



## Isaacc7

DecentLevi said:


> Would anyone have an opinion on whether feedback switch would still do anything to the sound, even on an amp without TR/UL mode? I'm having Tomas convert my Finyssey  to an Odyssey for several reasons, and he said feedback mode is only useful if you have TR/UL mode, though I'm wondering if it may still yield interesting results.


Single ended or push pull? It depends on the kind of feedback I imagine. The speakers you have will be part of the equation too. I have only ever heard one amp with variable feedback. The Cary 805 lets you add up to 10db of global feedback. I found about 2-3db of feedback tightened up the bass and gave a more defined soundstage on the big Spendor monitors, SP100 I think. Zero feedback was certainly richer and rounder. Too much feedback made the sound progressively closed in. That amp uses either an 845 or 211 triode. Global feedback lowers harmonic distortion and increases the damping factor. Comparatively massive amounts of global negative feedback is what leads to vanishingly low distortion and super high damping factor of solid state amps. A lot of people say that too much global negative feedback makes a tube amp too solid state sounding. On the other hand some speakers require more damping factor to get good bass. 

Triodes, including strapped triodes, are inherently pretty low in distortion so global negative feedback can be optional. It's pretty much essential if you are running pentode mode. I'm not sure it would be too easy to just add a variable global feedback to an existing circuit. Pretty sure the circuit needs to be made with feedback in mind otherwise  it can lead to oscillations. Think I read that "higher quality" transformers allow you to use more feedback.


----------



## UntilThen

In my Odyssey, I use feedback only in UL mode and when using EL11 as drivers. That was advice by Tomas and it sounded great. It's quieter too with feedback applied. Strangely I didn't ask for feedback but Tomas just did it.  It was a greenfield project and I didn't know what to expect until I got the amp.


----------



## DecentLevi

UntilThen said:


> How is the conversion done? With a new chassis and reusing whatever parts possible? Odyssey in my mind, is the most beautiful sounding tube amp I've ever heard.


After having already converted the output section to auto-bias last year (this is when the Sowtwers came in and the name changed from Infinity to Finyssey), I basically just need the input tube section to be converted to auto-bias as well. As Tomas said this would be to:

"get rid of the input stage gyrators, the grid drivers and the B- power supply and all the adjustments.
Then replace that with resistor loads for the driver tube anodes and cathode bias for the input tubes."


Isaacc7 said:


> Single ended or push pull? It depends on the kind of feedback I imagine. The speakers you have will be part of the equation too. I have only ever heard one amp with variable feedback. The Cary 805 lets you add up to 10db of global feedback. I found about 2-3db of feedback tightened up the bass and gave a more defined soundstage on the big Spendor monitors, SP100 I think. Zero feedback was certainly richer and rounder. Too much feedback made the sound progressively closed in. That amp uses either an 845 or 211 triode. Global feedback lowers harmonic distortion and increases the damping factor. Comparatively massive amounts of global negative feedback is what leads to vanishingly low distortion and super high damping factor of solid state amps. A lot of people say that too much global negative feedback makes a tube amp too solid state sounding. On the other hand some speakers require more damping factor to get good bass.
> 
> Triodes, including strapped triodes, are inherently pretty low in distortion so global negative feedback can be optional. It's pretty much essential if you are running pentode mode. I'm not sure it would be too easy to just add a variable global feedback to an existing circuit. Pretty sure the circuit needs to be made with feedback in mind otherwise  it can lead to oscillations. Think I read that "higher quality" transformers allow you to use more feedback.


I'll leave this for Tomas to answer. I believe it's an SE amp. Stock output tubes are still KT66 pentodes, and input is 6SN7 triodes, and I would be using mainly with headphones. I now have the HEDD Audio HEDDphone. It sounds like feedback mode (hopefully variable gain not a switch) would be a nice option, but I'll wait for his feedback about any benefit of having this without TR/UL mode.

The manually adjustable input tube section of my amp developed unstable performance glitches after using apparently untested tubes a while back, so I sent it back to Sweden for another do-over. We may also find a way of further reducing the hum, and upgrading the initial audio input wire. The HEDDphone does completely reduce the hum to a barely noticeable amount, but lowering it would allow other headphones to play nice as well.


----------



## baronbeehive (Dec 2, 2022)

If it's the Infinity it is a SET amp. The effect of getting rid of the gyrators would be to return the amp to old school design like the Odyssey. Which means more of the old style tube sound and less of the distortion free sound of the new school design with SS components such as FETs. The reason SS amps need massive amounts of feedback is they are usually very high powered whereas lower powered amps don't need so much and is the reason they have such a great sound as compared to a lot of SS amps.

I don't know if the Infinity is open loop design but if so that would be the reason for the huge open sounding soundstage, if it isn't then Sonic has used other wizardry to get such a great sound by all accounts. Open loop designs do not need feedback to sound great, by definition they are "open" ie. no feedback, if they did have feedback then the sound would be negatively affected in my view.

GNFB is normally built into the amp design not added on after. For example amps with high/low gain have this adjustment in feedback to either damp down the output response or allow it the full range of frequency response depending on what it needs for the optimal response. High gain, or low feedback will open up the sound whereas low gain, or high feedback, will control the sound more precisely at the expense of soundstage. Personally I prefer as little feedback as possible so long as it doesn't affect bass response negatively, or introduce other undesirable effects.


----------



## Isaacc7

DecentLevi said:


> After having already converted the output section to auto-bias last year (this is when the Sowtwers came in and the name changed from Infinity to Finyssey), I basically just need the input tube section to be converted to auto-bias as well. As Tomas said this would be to:
> 
> "get rid of the input stage gyrators, the grid drivers and the B- power supply and all the adjustments.
> Then replace that with resistor loads for the driver tube anodes and cathode bias for the input tubes."
> ...


Right, I keep forgetting this is a headphone board lol. I don't think damping factor is important at all for headphones. Another thing global negative feedback does is reduce gain. I don't trust hifi amps that use 12ax7 input tubes. The only reason to use such a high gain tube is to apply lots of negative feedback. The only reason to use a ton of feedback is to use its distortion lowering capabilities like a sledgehammer. Measures well but... eh. Might as well use a solid state amp at that point.


----------



## senseitedj

Isaacc7 said:


> Right, I keep forgetting this is a headphone board lol. I don't think damping factor is important at all for headphones. Another thing global negative feedback does is reduce gain. I don't trust hifi amps that use 12ax7 input tubes. The only reason to use such a high gain tube is to apply lots of negative feedback. The only reason to use a ton of feedback is to use its distortion lowering capabilities like a sledgehammer. Measures well but... eh. Might as well use a solid state amp at that point.



Based on my experience I think damping factor has the most influence with DD headphones, less so than its planar counterpart (though still important). Hence many people tend to praise DD driver HPs with high impedances, such as ZMFs, because their 300 ohm coil puts them in good stead with a wide range of tube amps.


----------



## jonathan c (Dec 3, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> Right, I keep forgetting this is a headphone board lol. I don't think damping factor is important at all for headphones. Another thing global negative feedback does is reduce gain. I don't trust hifi amps that use 12ax7 input tubes. The only reason to use such a high gain tube is to apply lots of negative feedback. The only reason to use a ton of feedback is to use its distortion lowering capabilities like a sledgehammer. Measures well but... eh. Might as well use a solid state amp at that point.


Interesting. The two h/p/a that I owned / own which ‘normally’ call for 12AX7 tubes - Quicksilver Audio, Icon Audio HP8 - sounded / sound better _to me_ with 5751, 12AT7 tubes. More ‘dynamic headroom’, less ‘compression’. 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> Interesting. The two h/p/a that I owned / own which ‘normally’ call for 12AX7 tubes - Quicksilver Audio, Icon Audio HP8 - sounded / sound better _to me_ with 5751, 12AT7 tubes. More ‘dynamic headroom’, less ‘compression’. 🤷🏻‍♂️


Same here, I used TS5751's for ages until I found equally, or even better 12Ax7's, Philips, were fantastic. Now I replaced the Philips with a 12AT7, the Brimar. I do think that with the right 12Ax7 though they are at a very high level, I changed my mind after hearing the best there was.


----------



## UntilThen

Life is more than head-fi 😅


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Life is more than head-fi 😅


No it isn't.  Can't believe you don't have any waterproof headphones.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> No it isn't.  Can't believe you don't have any waterproof headphones.



New from Sennheiser 2023


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Life is more than head-fi 😅


Damn your summertime lol 😅😡🤒.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> No it isn't.  Can't believe you don't have any waterproof headphones.


….and what about ‘Subtelemachus’ ?


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Life is more than head-fi 😅


Thong-fi ?


----------



## UntilThen

Why I still love Yggdrasil and did not think that I need to change the dac... ever.

https://darko.audio/2022/12/dac-off-schiit-vs-benchmark-vs-denafrips/


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Why I still love Yggdrasil and did not think that I need to change the dac... ever.
> 
> https://darko.audio/2022/12/dac-off-schiit-vs-benchmark-vs-denafrips/


Well, there are DACs and Chord DACs.


----------



## UntilThen

Sorry Chord's not my cup of tea.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> Sorry Chord's not my cup of tea.


Once again, you need more 300B in your life. Quad Elrog stomps over Ygg. Hell, it's better than my Berkeley Reference 3.


----------



## UntilThen

Neymar is into head-fi.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Neymar is into head-fi.


He borrowed the gold plated ones off you 🤣.


----------



## UntilThen

One week to Christmas and Santa delivered this to me, courtesy of my better half. For 2 weeks I've been using this (I know it's not Christmas yet but I can't resist) and the sound is GOOD !. Especially with noise cancelling and spatial audio turn on, I'm pretty impressed. So much so I've not use Susvara for 2 weeks.


----------



## jonathan c

OctavianH said:


> Well, there are DACs and Chord DACs.


Then there is Mojo Audio EVO Mystique DAC…


----------



## UntilThen

Curious at how my head-fi setup compare to the impressive Apple Airpod Pro 2, I switch on Odyssey and waited for it to warm up. Yggdrasil is already warm up. I don't think I ever switch Yggy off for several years.   I cuddle Susvara in the palms of my hands to warm it up. 

Then I press play.... and the Red Sea parted. Such was the euphony hitting my ears, I actually saw Pharoah's chariots in hot pursuit. 

So bring on the Christmas holidays. Let the party begins with beer, scotch, tequilas and more tequilas.


----------



## baronbeehive

Merry Christmas everyone .


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> One week to Christmas and *Santa delivered this to me*, courtesy of my better half. For 2 weeks I've been using this (I know it's not Christmas yet but I can't resist) and the sound is GOOD !. Especially with noise cancelling and spatial audio turn on, I'm pretty impressed. So much so I've not use Susvara for 2 weeks.



Why won't Neymar let you have your gold plated ones back 😃.


----------



## bcowen

baronbeehive said:


> Merry Christmas everyone .


To you as well!!

Question:  is Christmas in Australia next week, or 6 months from now?  Not sure if their calendar is upside down too.   🤣  🤣  🤣


----------



## UntilThen

On the 6th day to Christmas, I brought forth the Sennheiser and it's a fact that this headphone loves tube amp.  I am glad I kept the HD800, for old times sake. Can't sell off everything.

https://www.xmasclock.com/


----------



## UntilThen

If you have nothing to buy in 2023, buy this.
https://www.stereonet.com/au/news/d...-purifying-active-noise-cancelling-headphones


----------



## alvin sawdust

UntilThen said:


> On the 6th day to Christmas, I brought forth the Sennheiser and it's a fact that this headphone loves tube amp.  I am glad I kept the HD800, for old times sake. Can't sell off everything.
> 
> https://www.xmasclock.com/


Would love to re-visit the HD800 on the Tele.
When is your Tele due to arrive UT?


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> Would love to re-visit the HD800 on the Tele.
> When is your Tele due to arrive UT?



I think it's now June or July 2023.


----------



## alvin sawdust

UntilThen said:


> I think it's now June or July 2023.


Oh dear! Well all I can say is the wait will be wholly worth it, magical amplifier and as someone else said way back in this thread, listening to it is an experience.


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> Oh dear! Well all I can say is the wait will be wholly worth it, magical amplifier and as someone else said way back in this thread, listening to it is an experience.



I can't wait to sample it. Only a few days ago, someone msg me, asking me if I prefer Odyssey or Telemachus. Guess I will know after I have live with them for 6 months.


----------



## alvin sawdust

UntilThen said:


> I can't wait to sample it. Only a few days ago, someone msg me, asking me if I prefer Odyssey or Telemachus. Guess I will know after I have live with them for 6 months.


You will be the go to reference once you have the Tele in your UltraSonic line up, looking forward to it.


----------



## UntilThen

alvin sawdust said:


> You will be the go to reference once you have the Tele in your UltraSonic line up, looking forward to it.



It was never planned that I will end up with 3 Ultrasonic amps but after I've lived with Oblivion and Odyssey for a while, I would not have it any other way. Just plugging the HD800 into both those 2 amps and hearing distinctly different tube tones is amazing. After the arrival of Telemachus, there will be 3 different sounding amps to plug into.


----------



## UntilThen

HD800 needs a liquid amp.


----------



## UntilThen

It's Christmas Eve. Almost time for the mandatory turkey dinner, scallops, mega prawns. lobsters, sharks, whales, dinasours...

But I'm winding down and prepping up for a few weeks of break from work. So time to sit back and listen to some music from Qobuz, CDs, vinyls... Norah Jones herself.

Here's Odyssey with Telefunken EL11 and EL12 spez. The tone is as alive and captivating as when I first heard it.

Merry Christmas all.


----------



## senseitedj

The Telemachus has just been paired up with a more worthy dance partner in the dCS Bartok. 

I had been fortunate enough to purchase the Bartok at a very compelling offer and decided to go for it. 

Sonically and Aesthetically, they are such a great match beyond words.


----------



## SonicTrance

senseitedj said:


> The Telemachus has just been paired up with a more worthy dance partner in the dCS Bartok.
> 
> I had been fortunate enough to purchase the Bartok at a very compelling offer and decided to go for it.
> 
> Sonically and Aesthetically, they are such a great match beyond words.


I'm glad you're enjoying it!


----------



## Thaddy

senseitedj said:


> The Telemachus has just been paired up with a more worthy dance partner in the dCS Bartok.
> 
> I had been fortunate enough to purchase the Bartok at a very compelling offer and decided to go for it.
> 
> Sonically and Aesthetically, they are such a great match beyond words.


Wow, very nice!  I'm days away from my Odyssey's build months, it's nice to see everyone is still enjoying their amps.  I've also been thinking about replacing my Benchmark DAC3, possibly with a Yggdrasil LiM.  I know @UntilThen has one and enjoys it very much.


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> Wow, very nice!  I'm days away from my Odyssey's build months, it's nice to see everyone is still enjoying their amps.  I've also been thinking about replacing my Benchmark DAC3, possibly with a Yggdrasil LiM.  I know @UntilThen has one and enjoys it very much.



Is your Odyssey build in Jan 2023? Have you been told. I thought amps were pushed back a bit because it won't be one amp per month now to give Tomas personal time.

I do have the Yggdrasil original and it's my corner stone.


----------



## UntilThen

I've been listening to music with my setup for a day. The difference here is KT170 in Odyssey. I couldn't find words to describe it. Then someone suggest áuthoritative' and I say yeah that's it. Driving Susvara with great dynamics and authority.

Look at where the mA meter is showing. Just over 60 mA.


----------



## Thaddy

UntilThen said:


> Is your Odyssey build in Jan 2023? Have you been told. I thought amps were pushed back a bit because it won't be one amp per month now to give Tomas personal time.
> 
> I do have the Yggdrasil original and it's my corner stone.


Yes, I'm Jan/Feb 2023 now.


----------



## UntilThen

Hey Tomas, I was going to suggest that your avatar is missing the A in US.


----------



## senseitedj

Thaddy said:


> Wow, very nice!  I'm days away from my Odyssey's build months, it's nice to see everyone is still enjoying their amps.  I've also been thinking about replacing my Benchmark DAC3, possibly with a Yggdrasil LiM.  I know @UntilThen has one and enjoys it very much.



Looking forward to see the photos of your amp.

Yggdrasil is a great DAC. Hugo TT2 is also another option. A few Ultrasonic owners here pair their amp with the TT2 with great results. Chord Qutest/ Hugo 2 also viable alternatives.


----------



## UntilThen

My Yggdrasil is going on 6 years without a fault and on 24/7. Show me another dac that does that?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> My Yggdrasil is going on 6 years without a fault and on 24/7. Show me another dac that does that?


This one?      🤣  🤣  🤣


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> This one?      🤣  🤣  🤣



-70% what a deal !!!


----------



## OctavianH (Jan 1, 2023)

senseitedj said:


> Yggdrasil is a great DAC. Hugo TT2 is also another option.


I would recommend Qutest instead of TT2, you'll never use the integrated headphone amp anyway...


----------



## senseitedj (Jan 1, 2023)

OctavianH said:


> I would recommend Qutest instead of TT2, you'll never use the integrated headphone amp anyway...



To simplify a really complicated topic - the Hugo TT2 is still more resolving, as in theory it has double the processing power than the Qutest from the number of taps.

From my demo between the two, the TT2 is a step-up from the Qutest, but both are great components. I think the HP output can come in handy from time to time, even though most of us here will be pre-occupied listening through our amps.


----------



## OctavianH

senseitedj said:


> To simplify a really complicated topic - the Hugo TT2 is still more resolving, as in theory it has double the processing power than the Qutest from the number of taps.


The difference in resolution does not seem to be very big, and the signature of Qutest is more towards analythical/neutral while TT2 is more musical. I would personal pair a more neutral DAC with a tube amp. Anyway, each one has its own opinion. I am seriously thinking to replace TT2 with Qutest and keep M Scaler.


----------



## UntilThen

It depends on the chain. When I heard Qutest > Auris Nirvana > LCD4, I love it and bought the LCD4. When I heard the TT2 / Mscalar > Auris Nirvana > Susvara, I love it too and eventually bought Susvara. 

However I prefer Yggdrasil over TT2 / Mscalar because the former just sound more natural to me.


----------



## UntilThen

These tubes should really have 200 hours on them at least but I do not have such luxury. They are on loan and I have probably 30 hours on them.

First of all, it's a privilege to have tried almost all the KT tubes in Odyssey, from KT66 to KT88, KT150 and finally the latest incarnation KT170. Odyssey has been incredible with a whole bunch of power tubes such as EL34, 6550, EL12 spez, 807, 6L6GC, EL39 but these KT tubes are also special.

Having heard KT66 and KT88 a lot in Odyssey in the past, I focus on KT150 and KT170 in the last 2 days. Many Primaluna users have move from KT88 to KT150 and preferred it. KT150 in Odyssey has an immense sound, dense, warm and spaciously clear. Initially I find them very close but given more hours, I gravitate towards KT170. Yes there is a difference. KT170 is just very clear and clean but also dense and rich. The resultant sound makes Susvara come alive never like before. It's hard to put the headphone down but it's dinner time !!!


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> It's hard to put the headphone down but it's dinner time !!!


Grace Slick (of Jefferson Airplane) would say: “feed your head”… 😀


----------



## baronbeehive

jonathan c said:


> Grace Slick (of Jefferson Airplane) would say: “feed your head”… 😀


... or rather the dormouse. But that's what happens when you go chasing rabbits 😀.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> This one?      🤣  🤣  🤣


….do you only get 30% of the digits converted? …😳🤣 …


----------



## UntilThen

KT170 is still a very new power tube since it's introduction. There are not many reviews. This amp from the French specialist amp designer Jadis I70 looks lovely. A pair of KT170 has a plate dissipation of 85w and puts out a staggering max of 300w.

The Jadis puts out just a cool 50w of class A. Conservatively.
https://www.absolutesounds.com/pdf/main/press/hi-fi+0722_I70_209 Jadis.pdf

In the quiet hours of 4am, I don't need the Jadis because Odyssey with KT170 driving Susvara is an experience. It's effortless. Like a Rolls Royce cruising along. Super quiet.


----------



## UntilThen

Tomas has created a Swedish work of art in Odyssey. I love the silver version.


----------



## UntilThen

I await Telemachus arrival. It would be interesting to hear the volcanic differences between Odyssey KT170 and Telemachus 300b with Susvara..


----------



## UntilThen

Bcowen, Tee off on Thursday morning. Be there with the gold cart. After 5 days of tubes, tubes and more tubes, I am ready to unleash.


----------



## UntilThen

Wow HD800 with Odyssey KT170 is incredible.   Coffee time at 6am !!!


----------



## Zachik

UntilThen said:


> Wow HD800 with Odyssey KT170 is incredible.   Coffee time at 6am !!!


Why are you even awake at 6am?! At that time of the night, I only dream about tubes. Not using them...


----------



## UntilThen

Zachik said:


> Why are you even awake at 6am?! At that time of the night, I only dream about tubes. Not using them...



Sleep is for babies. I've been awake since 4am.... and @xtiva is coming over at 9am. Welcome to 3rd Jan 2023 or 3123.


----------



## ThanatosVI

UntilThen said:


> Sleep is for babies. I've been awake since 4am.... and @xtiva is coming over at 9am. Welcome to 3rd Jan 2023 or 3123.


When do you usually go to sleep tho?


----------



## UntilThen

ThanatosVI said:


> When do you usually go to sleep tho?



I'm on 2 weeks holiday now so that is a difficult question. I might try sleeping on my new keyboard.


----------



## Thaddy

Those KT170's look intimidating but have a wonderful glow


----------



## UntilThen

Thaddy said:


> Those KT170's look intimidating but have a wonderful glow



It's the sexiest tube and sounds intimidating in Odyssey.   You're in for a wonderful surprise when you get Odyssey.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Bcowen, Tee off on Thursday morning. Be there with the gold cart. After 5 days of tubes, tubes and more tubes, I am ready to unleash.


….hmm…White tees => single-tank scuba; blue tees => double-tank scuba…🤿…


----------



## Isaacc7

This amp (transformer?) just sings with the 807 output tube. If you ordered the same amp I did but set up just for 807 outputs and 6sn7 and/or 6j5 inputs you would be very very happy. And without all the meters, external heating, and extra input it would be noticeably less expensive to boot. Granted, with an 8k transformer and the tubes being run in triode at 320v 40ma you're only getting 6 watts of class a power (12 in ab) so it won't work with every speaker but they are 6 glorious watts! Old school amp guys shudder at the prospect of an expensive push pull amp only putting out 6 watts but listening to this I think it's worth it, efficiency be damned!

My system is stunning, the amp is positively singing through my speakers. I'll talk more about it in the tube rolling thread.


----------



## Isaacc7

@SonicTrance have you ever looked into using Vanderveen transformers? They have a stellar reputation for their output transformers. Something I noticed is that they do offer a 32ohm to 600ohm transformer. That can be used in either direction of course. Made me wonder if such a transformer would make it easier to use lower power tubes to power headphones instead of using power output tubes like 300b or the various pentodes. What are the advantages of using something like this for high impedance headphones as opposed to just using the brute strength approach of high power tubes and regular output transformers?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Bcowen, Tee off on Thursday morning. Be there with the gold cart. After 5 days of tubes, tubes and more tubes, I am ready to unleash.


No problem.  Should be back on the road shortly.   🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> No problem.  Should be back on the road shortly.   🤣


There’s that Carolina Blue ! 😂


----------



## Isaacc7

I typically listen at fairly low levels, 65db to low 70s. It’s one of the reasons I’ve been able to use single ended amps with speakers that are only 90db sensitive. Got my first taste of why push pull largely supplanted single ended tonight. I had been listening to Bream’s Popular Music for Spanish Guitar again and I let Apple Music continue with a station of similar music when the album was over. An Albienz piano concerto came on that I wasn’t familiar with. Bream’s album is 24bit 192khz and is mastered quite low so I had the volume up quite a bit. I was reading with the music in the background when all of a sudden there was a big forté section in the music. 

I almost dropped my magazine I was so startled by the volume. What really struck me was how clean it was. This amp is 2-3 times more powerful than my previous amps once it strays into the AB mode of amplification. I’m sure my SEP amp would have distorted quite badly. So yeah, there’s that as another difference between my single ended and push pull amps. Not only is the Odyssey more precise in general, the power reserves it has allows much better peaks at louder volumes.


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> I typically listen at fairly low levels, 65db to low 70s. It’s one of the reasons I’ve been able to use single ended amps with speakers that are only 90db sensitive. Got my first taste of why push pull largely supplanted single ended tonight. I had been listening to Bream’s Popular Music for Spanish Guitar again and I let Apple Music continue with a station of similar music when the album was over. An Albienz piano concerto came on that I wasn’t familiar with. Bream’s album is 24bit 192khz and is mastered quite low so I had the volume up quite a bit. I was reading with the music in the background when all of a sudden there was a big forté section in the music.
> 
> I almost dropped my magazine I was so startled by the volume. What really struck me was how clean it was. This amp is 2-3 times more powerful than my previous amps once it strays into the AB mode of amplification. I’m sure my SEP amp would have distorted quite badly. So yeah, there’s that as another difference between my single ended and push pull amps. Not only is the Odyssey more precise in general, the power reserves it has allows much better peaks at louder volumes.


I'm sure Sonic will be pleased to hear that. Do you know if your amp is open loop, I can't remember with the discussion previously. If it is that is the reason for the better handling of transients for most of his amps, no GNFB getting in the way.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> No problem. Should be back on the road shortly. 🤣



Get that out of the lake now! Tee off is today!

Weather’s looking good.


----------



## Isaacc7

baronbeehive said:


> I'm sure Sonic will be pleased to hear that. Do you know if your amp is open loop, I can't remember with the discussion previously. If it is that is the reason for the better handling of transients for most of his amps, no GNFB getting in the way.


I don't think there is any global feedback. If there is I don't think it's much. I know just enough to be dangerous when it comes to amplifier circuits. With my credentials established I'm pretty sure that the amount of power is the primary determinant of how well an amp handles spikes of volume. I'm not sure if you can have an amp designed to be used with a lot of different tubes and have high amounts of global feedback. Always thought global feedback had to be designed around specific values in order to avoid oscillations. High global negative feedback amps have the reputation of sounding ugly when clipped whereas no feedback amps do it more gracefully. 

So yeah, more power and minimal if any global feedback equals good transients.


----------



## Maxx134 (Jan 5, 2023)

UntilThen said:


> My Yggdrasil is going on 6 years without a fault and on 24/7. Show me another dac that does that?


Hehe, You will have to be mindful if ever shipping a used unit, because the main board which holds the PSU transformers, does not have them physically secured, but instead are held only by their terminal pins soldered straight onto the board.

I had my first yggy unit DOA because the transformer detached in shipping upside-down.  Then on my second unit, the transformer detached when I shipped it to the new second owner.  I had to ship it back to Schitt.

Also, with high heat the main board electrolytics dry up a bit, as I noted better performance when I had the main board replaced yet another time, when sent for repair of an issue in which the dac relays were clicking(!) every time my wify turned on the kitchen stove(!) which had a clicking electric starter... 😲😅

Other than those issues, the unit sound performance was really truly excellent.
I moved onto the "Holo Spring Dac" because of the R2R sound, which the yggdrasil introduced me to. I realized I preferred the attributes of R2R over other design like the Chord Dave or "Delta Sigma" dacs.




UntilThen said:


> However I prefer Yggdrasil over TT2 / Mscalar because the former just sound more natural to me


I agree, this preference is yet another confirmation that R2R topologies make the most natural sounding Dacs.  CHORD may be great, but not rival top R2R units in naturalness.




Isaacc7 said:


> Old school amp guys shudder at the prospect of an expensive push pull amp only putting out 6 watts but listening to this I think it's worth it, efficiency be damned!


6 watts should be overkill for any headphones, even planars 🙂


----------



## Isaacc7

Maxx134 said:


> Hehe, You will have to be mindful if ever shipping a used unit, because the main board which holds the PSU transformers, does not have them physically secured, but instead are held only by their terminal pins soldered straight onto the board.
> 
> I had my first yggy unit DOA because the transformer detached in shipping upside-down.  Then on my second unit, the transformer detached when I shipped it to the new second owner.  I had to ship it back to Schitt.
> 
> ...


I don’t listen to headphones 6w in speaker land isn’t much but it is doing well for me.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Hehe, You will have to be mindful if ever shipping a used unit, because the main board which holds the PSU transformers, does not have them physically secured, but instead are held only by their terminal pins soldered straight onto the board.
> 
> I had my first yggy unit DOA because the transformer detached in shipping upside-down. Then on my second unit, the transformer detached when I shipped it to the new second owner. I had to ship it back to Schitt.



You’re unlucky. I bought my Yggdrasil from Addicted To Audio and there has never been a problem. The only addition I made was adding a Schiit Eitr.

Probably a new dac in 2 years time otherwise I won’t fuss.

As for power in amps, my Odyssey outputs 15w in triode mode but that is at 8 ohms driving speakers. At 60ohms for Susvara, it’s probably about 3w but that more than sufficient. There’s so much headroom to spare.


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> You’re unlucky. I bought my Yggdrasil from Addicted To Audio and there has never been a proproblem



Yes, I  agree.
I only mentioned to be mindful about shipping, because regardless if a person is lucky or unlucky(me! Lol), that doesn't change the fact that the PSU transformers on the main board are heavy, and not secured to anything. Only pins soldered to board. You can look this up on own website images.  
l'm not disclaiming it's perfomance which is impeccable, as I loved the yggy when I owned it.
I just posting technical concerns about the transformers that's good to know.




UntilThen said:


> At 60ohms for Susvara, it’s probably about 3w but that more than sufficient. There’s so much headroom to spare


Agreed. I was glad it played well on the Oblivion when I had it.


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Yes, I agree.
> I only mentioned to be mindful about shipping, because regardless if a person is lucky or unlucky(me! Lol), that doesn't change the fact that the PSU transformers on the main board are heavy, and not secured to anything. Only pins soldered to board. You can look this up on own website images.
> l'm not disclaiming it's perfomance which is impeccable, as I loved the yggy when I owned it.
> I just posting technical concerns about the transformers that's good to know.



I remember the day I audition Yggdrasil and Ragnarok at the brick and mortar shop for the 2nd time. That day I left the shop with those 2 items and HD800. The salesman helped me carry them to my car. It was an extraordinary day buying 3 items together. If Yggy fails I just have to carry it back to the shop instead of sending it back to Schiit USA.

Still have a picture of the audition.




Maxx134 said:


> Agreed. I was glad it played well on the Oblivion when I had it.



I mainly use Odyssey with Susvara. Tomas told me Odyssey is 5 times more powerful than Oblivion. 

Both play well with Susvara but for my ears Odyssey is much better. Amazing liquid tube tone and clarity. Looking back on my correspondence with Tomas, I told him that Odyssey must be built to play well with Susvara, even though I didn't have Susvara at that time. The amp was built for that purpose. Driving speakers was a secondary task.  

Yggdrasil > Odyssey > Susvara is my final system .... and then Telemachus came along.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> I remember the day I audition Yggdrasil and Ragnarok at the brick and mortar shop for the 2nd time. That day I left the shop with those 2 items and HD800. The salesman helped me carry them to my car. It was an extraordinary day buying 3 items together. If Yggy fails I just have to carry it back to the shop instead of sending it back to Schiit USA.
> 
> Still have a picture of the audition.
> 
> ...


Yes, you were sonically content "Until Then".


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Yes, you were sonically content "Until Then".



You want to trade name? This one's dangerous.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Yggdrasil > Odyssey > Susvara is my final system .... and then Telemachus came along.


Have you bought the 300B amp from Eric McChanson?


----------



## UntilThen (Jan 7, 2023)

OctavianH said:


> Have you bought the 300B amp from Eric McChanson?



Bought and sold Destiny. That came before Odyssey. Sold it because I wanted Telemachus.

I change my destiny. 😝


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Have you bought the 300B amp from Eric McChanson?



Surely you must have seen Destiny and Odyssey together?


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Surely you must have seen Destiny and Odyssey together?


Yes but I thought you had a new one in the meantime to test / try / buy.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Yes but I thought you had a new one in the meantime to test / try / buy.



That's not a 300b amp but a pentode in triode mode amp and Odyssey does that already. 

Odyssey and Susvara on slow blues. Totally relaxing on a Sat night.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Yggdrasil > Odyssey > Susvara is my *final system* .... and then Telemachus came along.


Meaning... there will be others coming soon  🤣.


----------



## baronbeehive

UntilThen said:


> Both play well with Susvara but for my ears Odyssey is much better. Amazing liquid tube tone and clarity. Looking back on my correspondence with Tomas, I told him that Odyssey must be built to play well with Susvara, even though I didn't have Susvara at that time. The amp was built for that purpose. Driving speakers was a secondary task.


I'm still amazed that the "old school" Odyssey performs better than the "new school" Oblivion. I realize that it is a matter of taste but hands up to the old school pioneers, and Sonic of course .


----------



## UntilThen

baronbeehive said:


> I'm still amazed that the "old school" Odyssey performs better than the "new school" Oblivion. I realize that it is a matter of taste but hands up to the old school pioneers, and Sonic of course .



Odyssey is an old school amp but it's not a traditional tube amp tone. It's got sugar and spice. It's sweet and hot. Needs to be sampled. There's of course Sowter and boutique parts and they matter in an old school amp. Tomas is talented and produce beautiful sounding amps. He has to be otherwise I won't be having 3 of his amps.


----------



## Maxx134

Over time, I have been accumulating and rolling almost every driver tube I could find...

I think I have found most of them.😅

I have more in a box, 

But I only neeeeeed  two! 
Is this hording? 🤑


----------



## bcowen

Maxx134 said:


> Over time, I have been accumulating and rolling almost every driver tube I could find...
> 
> I think I have found most of them.😅
> 
> ...


No.  The only hoarder around these parts is @UntilThen .  The rest of us are _collectors_.   🤣


----------



## raindownthunda

bcowen said:


> No.  The only hoarder around these parts is @UntilThen .  The rest of us are _*scavengers*_.   🤣


FTFY, bcowen


----------



## UntilThen

Maxx134 said:


> Over time, I have been accumulating and rolling almost every driver tube I could find...



Because of you I have been collecting (not hoarding, not scavenging) these and now I present Oblivion in a video.


----------



## Maxx134

UntilThen said:


> Because of you I have been collecting (not hoarding, not scavenging) these and now I present Oblivion in a video.



Haha sweet! 😄


----------



## Maxx134

bcowen said:


> No.  The only hoarder around these parts is @UntilThen .  The rest of us are _collectors_.   🤣


Actually I like feel that since I was searching, I _saved_ the tubes from being lost, and now they are found... 😅


----------



## jonathan c

Maxx134 said:


> Over time, I have been accumulating and rolling almost every driver tube I could find...
> 
> I think I have found most of them.😅
> 
> ...


No…You are running a *b*oarding house for vagrant vacuum tubes until they find _gain_ful employment in an amplifier….🤔🤷🏻‍♂️🤣🤣🤣


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Because of you I have been collecting (not hoarding, not scavenging) these and now I present Oblivion in a video.



Nice videos, Oblivion and Odyssey. I've just realised that I'll soon try some similar EL81 on my amp.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Nice videos, Oblivion and Odyssey. I've just realised that I'll soon try some similar EL81 on my amp.



You can use EL81?


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> You can use EL81?


With adapters to KT88 I do not really see why not. I guess I can use almost everything if I'll bias them properly. According to the datasheet seems fine:






It is true that I never saw triode connection graphs for these, but I guess if my Vgrid goes around -50V I'll be able to take these to 20mA. I'll measure to see which grid value I need to set.

From a discussion when Eternity was planned Tomas told me:





I guess your problem in Odyssey is Vplate which is higher than what EL81 supports, same for me with EL82 which I will not try. If I'm missing something let me know.


----------



## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> Over time, I have been accumulating and rolling almost every driver tube I could find...
> 
> I think I have found most of them.😅
> 
> ...


There @UntilThen that is how to tube roll 🤣, the supply side shortage of tubes will be restored when Maxx gets round to selling them back on to the market 👍.


----------



## Maxx134

baronbeehive said:


> There @UntilThen that is how to tube roll 🤣, the supply side shortage of tubes will be restored when Maxx gets round to selling them back on to the market 👍.


Haha woops I made another "find". .

Does anyone know who is original manufacturer of CBS tubes?
I assume at that time they made their own? 
Anyways,  I couldn't resist the black plates 🙂


----------



## Isaacc7

Maxx134 said:


> Haha woops I made another "find". .
> 
> Does anyone know who is original manufacturer of CBS tubes?
> I assume at that time they made their own?
> Anyways,  I couldn't resist the black plates 🙂


Dunno about this one but CBS branded 6sn7, 6sl7, and 6ez5 I have are all GE tubes.


----------



## Maxx134

Isaacc7 said:


> all GE tubes....


Nooooooooooowaaaahh!
Last GE tube I had, I threw at the wall!


----------



## Isaacc7

Maxx134 said:


> Nooooooooooowaaaahh!
> Last GE tube I had, I threw at the wall!


Both the GE 6ez5 and 6bg6ga sound really good. Neither the 6sn7 nor the 6sl7 GE sounded good in my system. So possibly bad news for your tube lol. Try it and see what you think. There are folks that like the GE 6sl7 with silver plates so maybe it isn’t a hopeless situation.


----------



## jonathan c

Maxx134 said:


> Nooooooooooowaaaahh!
> Last GE tube I had, I threw at the wall!


How is the wall 🤕…?


----------



## Maxx134

This is currently my favorite driver tube:



Oldest version 🙂


----------



## jonathan c

Maxx134 said:


> Haha woops I made another "find". .
> 
> Does anyone know who is original manufacturer of CBS tubes?


See below:


----------



## jonathan c

Isaacc7 said:


> Both the GE 6ez5 and 6bg6ga sound really good. Neither the 6sn7 nor the 6sl7 GE sounded good in my system. So possibly bad news for your tube lol. Try it and see what you think. There are folks that like the GE 6sl7 with silver plates so maybe it isn’t a hopeless situation.


As an aside, the GE 5998A power tubes are very good. I think of them as 90% of a TS 5998 at 25%-30% of the TS 5998 price. (@Ripper2860 has reviewed them thoroughly).


----------



## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> Both the GE 6ez5 and 6bg6ga sound really good. Neither the 6sn7 nor the 6sl7 GE sounded good in my system. So possibly bad news for your tube lol. Try it and see what you think. There are folks that like the GE 6sl7 with silver plates so maybe it isn’t a hopeless situation.


I've tried the 12v version of the GE6SL7 round silver plates and I did like it. It is very clear but without the musicality and harmonics of the TS for example IMO.


----------



## baronbeehive (Tuesday at 10:29 AM)

Maxx134 said:


> This is currently my favorite driver tube:
> 
> Oldest version 🙂


That's a bit of a weird one isn't it? Only one triode and 2 diodes for some reason. Equivalent to one triode of a 5751 which I did like. Is there any implication of having only one triode? Most amps only use one triode anyway if I'm right?

Looks a bit like these?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115534768776?hash=item1ae668aa88:g:1M4AAOSwViNjKu2k&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAoElH5YNH+zpTkKb/UBVWStJgPgBo4XPcsYW5pfzF05MWkdy4fPZm/eGViqqo4sZBn4HrDsj9JV3HJAGU/mQmKw9jWqzaGPgyAWuzFpmpbM/e7dcnyKZ2od5DXfWaJ07vEMjXtCueWgjeYAkP9WR5x3NGjeplMv1D879C4W6/O2b4KPeI86Y2eU3p7St+lFQSpGrzPcGZyMz7NP3v8EiEYx0=|tkp:Bk9SR46g8cGzYQ


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## Maxx134 (Tuesday at 11:21 PM)

baronbeehive said:


> That's a bit of a weird one isn't it? Only one triode and 2 diodes for some reason. Equivalent to one triode of a 5751 which I did like. Is there any implication of having only one triode? Most amps only use one triode anyway if I'm right?
> 
> Looks a bit like these?
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115534768776?hash=item1ae668aa88:g:1M4AAOSwViNjKu2k&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAoElH5YNH+zpTkKb/UBVWStJgPgBo4XPcsYW5pfzF05MWkdy4fPZm/eGViqqo4sZBn4HrDsj9JV3HJAGU/mQmKw9jWqzaGPgyAWuzFpmpbM/e7dcnyKZ2od5DXfWaJ07vEMjXtCueWgjeYAkP9WR5x3NGjeplMv1D879C4W6/O2b4KPeI86Y2eU3p7St+lFQSpGrzPcGZyMz7NP3v8EiEYx0=|tkp:Bk9SR46g8cGzYQ


Those look good but not as old.
I notice throughout the years the RCA tubes slowly declined in desirable sound.  I noticed the oldest versions having a very good clarity. I noticed the same with older RCA tubes sounding better than newer, in another amp we had (APPJ).

I have a least 6 "favorite" tubes (out of many more) which are different brands, and are all excellent because this amp (Oblivion) does so well with tubes selection and bias you can't go wrong with any.
That's @SonicTrance (Tomas) design genius. Just can't go wrong no matter the tube on the Oblivion. 👍

The problem now is I have all these tubes 😅


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## Isaacc7

baronbeehive said:


> That's a bit of a weird one isn't it? Only one triode and 2 diodes for some reason. Equivalent to one triode of a 5751 which I did like. Is there any implication of having only one triode? Most amps only use one triode anyway if I'm right?
> 
> Looks a bit like these?
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115534768776?hash=item1ae668aa88:g:1M4AAOSwViNjKu2k&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAoElH5YNH+zpTkKb/UBVWStJgPgBo4XPcsYW5pfzF05MWkdy4fPZm/eGViqqo4sZBn4HrDsj9JV3HJAGU/mQmKw9jWqzaGPgyAWuzFpmpbM/e7dcnyKZ2od5DXfWaJ07vEMjXtCueWgjeYAkP9WR5x3NGjeplMv1D879C4W6/O2b4KPeI86Y2eU3p7St+lFQSpGrzPcGZyMz7NP3v8EiEYx0=|tkp:Bk9SR46g8cGzYQ


Tubes like that were designed to be used in radios. Having both the rectifier and first amplifier in the same tube saved space and money. Late in the tube age they made some wild combo tubes with multiple diodes, pentodes, and all manner of stuff in the same bottle. 

Most amplifiers will use one triode at a time but you’ll need multiple triodes for stereo. The run of the mill 6sn7, 12at7, etc. have two triodes in them. My Odyssey uses 2 twin triode input tubes. Each triode is used to drive a pentode output tube. Since I have a push pull amp I have 4 output tubes and so need 4 input triodes. Right now I am using  2 12sl7 input tubes but have used 4 single triodes with an adapter before. 

So long story short, you could probably use this tube with the right adapter but you’d need at least 2 of them and perhaps 4 depending on the configuration of the amp.


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## LoryWiv

Maxx134 said:


> Those look good but not as old.
> I notice throughout the years the RCA tubes slowly declined in desirable sound.  I noticed the oldest versions having a very good clarity. I noticed the same with older RCA tubes sounding better than newer, in another amp we had (APPJ).
> 
> I have a least 6 "favorite" tubes (out of many more) which are different brands, and are all excellent because this amp (Oblivion) does so well with tubes selection and bias you can't go wrong with any.
> ...


A good problem to have, however!!!


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## baronbeehive

Maxx134 said:


> Those look good but not as old.
> I notice throughout the years the RCA tubes slowly declined in desirable sound.  I noticed the oldest versions having a very good clarity. I noticed the same with older RCA tubes sounding better than newer, in another amp we had (APPJ).


Yep, probably true for other tubes as well I have found. Also I never did get to try RCA tubes with more desirable black plates I think were earlier.


Maxx134 said:


> The problem now is I have all these tubes 😅


Haha, huge problem I've found, only way to get rid of them is one or two at a time or maybe a box but yours would need a removal van 😩.


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## baronbeehive

Isaacc7 said:


> Tubes like that were designed to be used in radios. Having both the rectifier and first amplifier in the same tube saved space and money. Late in the tube age they made some wild combo tubes with multiple diodes, pentodes, and all manner of stuff in the same bottle.
> 
> Most amplifiers will use one triode at a time but you’ll need multiple triodes for stereo. The run of the mill 6sn7, 12at7, etc. have two triodes in them. My Odyssey uses 2 twin triode input tubes. Each triode is used to drive a pentode output tube. Since I have a push pull amp I have 4 output tubes and so need 4 input triodes. Right now I am using  2 12sl7 input tubes but have used 4 single triodes with an adapter before.
> 
> So long story short, you could probably use this tube with the right adapter but you’d need at least 2 of them and perhaps 4 depending on the configuration of the amp.


Ah right! My LD has a white cathode follower circuit which uses both triodes in a feedback loop so wasn't sure about others.


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## UntilThen

Musical Fidelity join the band as a lead guitarist.


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