# Some Whiplash TWag V1 Cables Turning Green (Split from JH13 Appreciation Thread)



## b0ck3n

So the TWag is 100% silver and _never_ turns blue/green?

  
  Quote: 





airwax said:


> I'm pairing mine balanced with the protector and silver dragon iem cable, and got a single-ended twag on the way. hopefully, it will improve. hated the discoloration of the stock clear cable (turning green).


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## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





b0ck3n said:


> So the TWag is 100% silver and _never_ turns blue/green?


 
  silver oxide is still silver in color, just slightly dulled, though you wont notice that through the plastic of the cable.


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## b0ck3n

Yeah I know, I was just under the impression that these weren't 100% pure

  
  Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> silver oxide is still silver in color, just slightly dulled, though you wont notice that through the plastic of the cable.


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## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





b0ck3n said:


> Yeah I know, I was just under the impression that these weren't 100% pure


 
  oh yeah....you're right, they're only 99.99998% silver   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   they're totes gonna turn green


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## b0ck3n

That's not what I meant 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Having never heard aftermarket cables I'm skeptic as to whether they make an audible difference, but I like the look of a clear/silver cable and the wooden bead on the V2 is sexy aswell.


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## AVU

someone was just selling a Twag on the marketplace section that had turned green.  I think this happens to all silver regardless.


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## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





avu said:


> someone was just selling a Twag on the marketplace section that had turned green.  I think this happens to all silver regardless.


 
  i think thats odd, i had mine for over 6 months, didnt even show a hint of green, but when i sold it and started using the stock cable, it as green like a week later


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## Kunlun

Quote: 





avu said:


> someone was just selling a Twag on the marketplace section that had turned green.  I think this happens to all silver regardless.


 

 Silver doesn't turn green with oxidation, it turns black.
   
  Copper turns green with oxidation. Cables made of copper with a very thin coating of silver may turn green over time, but pure silver won't.


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## AVU

Quote: 





kunlun said:


> Silver doesn't turn green with oxidation, it turns black.
> 
> Copper turns green with oxidation. Cables made of copper with a very thin coating of silver may turn green over time, but pure silver won't.


 

 Yeah, that sounds right.  So why would a Twag turn green?


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## TekeRugburn

i dunno...but the twag turned green with oxidation... i've seen pics on the fs forum.... and it was definately green


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## b0ck3n

I guess one shouldn't be surprised that a cable vendor might use other than specified materials in his products..


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## Kunlun

Quote: 





tekerugburn said:


> i dunno...but the twag turned green with oxidation... i've seen pics on the fs forum.... and it was definately green


 
  Just to be clear: I wasn't saying you were wrong about that! Just stating the basic chemistry: When silver oxidizes it turns black, when copper oxidizes it turns green.
   
  Obviously, the twag cable has quite a bit of copper.
   
  Unique melody's Beat Audio cables seem as though they are the same way--I'd be happy to hear differently, though.


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## rmappita

*Hi Kunlun,*

*If Twag Cable has copper, they will be in a BIG trouble.....*
   
  And Stephen from UM sent me this e-mail when I asked about the material used on the Cronus Cable.
   
  "Hi,
 Those cables are not from UM, but they are  Beat Audio, which is another company that I distribute for that sells high quality cables.
 I didn't put the materials on the web pages because Beat Audio lab believes that the sound signatures of cables are more than just material. There are many other factors that contributes to the sound.
 However, you still have the right to know about the material.
 It suppresses pure copper on the surface of 8NOFC.
 Also, the difference in prices reflect their sound quality.

 Cheers,

 Stephen"
   
_*    Rodrigo Pita*_
   
   
  Quote: 





kunlun said:


> Just to be clear: I wasn't saying you were wrong about that! Just stating the basic chemistry: When silver oxidizes it turns black, when copper oxidizes it turns green.
> 
> Obviously, the twag cable has quite a bit of copper.
> 
> Unique melody's Beat Audio cables seem as though they are the same way--I'd be happy to hear differently, though.


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## Kunlun

Quote: 





rmappita said:


> *Hi Kunlun,*
> 
> *If Twag Cable has copper, they will be in a BIG trouble.....*
> 
> ...


 
  Hi Mr Pita,
  I guess they are in big trouble then? I'm pretty sure we are just talking about basic chemisty here.
   
  I think oxygen free copper is a bit of a problem because it's not so easy to keep it oxygen free, any degradation of the lining with use or time will lead to oxidation. Thank you very much for the info about Beat Audio cables, though!


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## rmappita

Quote: 





kunlun said:


> Hi Mr Pita,
> I guess they are in big trouble then? I'm pretty sure we are just talking about basic chemisty here.
> 
> I think oxygen free copper is a bit of a problem because it's not so easy to keep it oxygen free, any degradation of the lining with use or time will lead to oxidation. Thank you very much for the info about Beat Audio cables, though!


 



 Don't worry Kunlun, we are just talking about chemisty =)
   
  Take Care,
     _Rodrigo Pita_


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## AVU

The one recently sold by TravisG to Twinster on the cables, etc. forum was tarnished on one strand, just like my original JH13 silver cable became tarnished before I replaced it (like many, many others.)
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/543088/64-inch-twag-over-molded-headphone-cable-price-drop
  check out the second picture:


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## Anaxilus




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## Methadrol

anxiously waiting for my TWag v2 protector cable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Went out to the pool today and sat in perfect weather in audio bliss with my JH13s


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## SolidSnake3

Any update on the wire test kit and the whole silver doesn't turn green thing? Was sort of interested in the results of that...


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## SolidSnake3

Thanks for the response parrots, interested in the results.


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## Br777

Silver cables are turning green b/c of the silver interacting with the insulation on the wire.  sorry if insulation is not the right word.  anyway google it you'll see.
   
  PVC - a common cable insulator-  is well known for interacting with silver and turning it green.


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## Anaxilus

Quote: 





br777 said:


> Silver cables are turning green b/c of the silver interacting with the insulation on the wire.  sorry if insulation is not the right word.  anyway google it you'll see.
> 
> PVC - a common cable insulator-  is well known for interacting with silver and turning it green.


 

 I believe it would still be interacting w/ the copper content in the silver.  I read that even sterling silver can have up to 7.5% Copper.  I'm not sure it's possible for 99.99999% Elemental silver to turn green.  Is it?


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## Br777

i didnt know about the silver containing copper thing... guess the mystery continues


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## Kunlun

Quote: 





br777 said:


> i didnt know about the silver containing copper thing... guess the mystery continues


 
  We're all waiting for the results of Parrot's lab test, but really there's no mystery here. When basic chemistry conflicts with a manufacturer's claims, guess which one is right and which one isn't...


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## Br777

dumb question but are ya'll sure the actual wire is turning green and not just the sheathing?


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## b0ck3n

Anyone who's shameless enough to sell _cables_ at those prices is shameless enough to lie about its specs. I'm sure some TWag buyers are motivated purely by aesthetics, but it fails even that.


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## Kunlun

Quote: 





br777 said:


> dumb question but are ya'll sure the actual wire is turning green and not just the sheathing?


 
  That clearly isn't what is happening. Still, Parrots has done one chemical test on the metal of the wire itself and is now having a lab do a second test. It'll all be proven beyond any doubt at all if Craig at Whiplash and Lee at Cryo have selling what they say they are selling or if they are not.


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## 563

I think it's only fair that we hear Whiplash Audio's side of the story too, particularly in view of some of the somewhat pointed posts here and elsewhere so far regarding the green coloration issue.  I think Mike raises a good question, and that is - what is the actual extent of the problem?  Is it a few isolated cases or is this happening on a regular basis?  The other question, which Mike touches upon below, is, to what extent has Whiplash addressed this issue?
   
  (read from bottom to top)
   
  [size=11pt]A:    "We actually aren’t sure exactly what caused it, but the changes we made for v2 seemed to clear it up. It was a cosmetic issue more than anything though, the sound quality was not effected. We also replaced every cable that was brought to our attention."[/size]
  
  [size=x-small][size=10pt]Q:  "Mike, what do you think was the problem with the V1s?  impurity in the silver?   much appreciated - look forward to hearing back from you."

  [/size][/size]
  
[size=11pt]"Basically the green issue was very isolated. We have only seen a few cables do that and it was all v1. What I have been seeing lately is that someone has an issue like this, or the Ultrasone ED10 pad problem, and everyone jumps in. I have heard a few people say this has happened with v2, but once we ask for pictures or proof it ends up being either v1 or they stop talking to us. As far as I can tell it is isolated to v1 (Although very rare), which is no longer a problem since all of our cables are v2." [/size]


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## dj nellie

Quote:


b0ck3n said:


> Anyone who's shameless enough to sell _cables_ at those prices is shameless enough to lie about its specs. I'm sure some TWag buyers are motivated purely by aesthetics, but it fails even that.


 

 On what are you basing your opinion that the prices of aftermarket cables are "shameless"?  Do you know how much the manufacturers pay for their materials, R&D, labor, and overhead?  If their prices are so out of whack with what buyers are willing to pay and the benefits they receive from the cables, then shouldn't ALO, Whiplash, Moon, etc. be out of business by now?  And how can something fail in terms of aesthetics?  Isn't that inherently subjective?
   
  I don't have any particular allegiance to Whiplash or their products, but I thought that was a baseless attack.  BTW, my v.1 TWag cables, which I've had for about a year, have not turned green.


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## b0ck3n

I would be extremely surprised if development and manufacturing costs reach heights that warrant the TWag's price. It's shameless because cable manufacturers and distributors claim audible sonic differences when in truth the same aftermarket cables have never passed a blind test. As long as a select few continues to buy these cables and swear by their "night and day" difference-making on forums like these, those companies will never be out of business.

If it's supposed to be silver but turns green I'd say that qualifies as an aesthetic failure.



dj nellie said:


> Quote:
> 
> On what are you basing your opinion that the prices of aftermarket cables are "shameless"?  Do you know how much the manufacturers pay for their materials, R&D, labor, and overhead?  If their prices are so out of whack with what buyers are willing to pay and the benefits they receive from the cables, then shouldn't ALO, Whiplash, Moon, etc. be out of business by now?  And how can something fail in terms of aesthetics?  Isn't that inherently subjective?
> 
> I don't have any particular allegiance to Whiplash or their products, but I thought that was a baseless attack.  BTW, my v.1 TWag cables, which I've had for about a year, have not turned green.


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## Kunlun

edited


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## 563

I am not a Whiplash fanboy, but I must say, Kunlun, your posts here and elsewhere are coming very close to crossing the line of propriety with respect to the honesty of Whiplash/Craig and Mike. While you say let's await the outcome of one person's tests, you at the same time use inflammatory terms such as "fraud," thereby indicating a fairly evident preference for a particular outcome.


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## b0ck3n

I never said it was just an aesthetic issue.


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## jp11801

ok first let's lay off the fraud accusation as according to Wiki "According to the Collins English Dictionary 10th Edition fraud can be defined as: "deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage".[1] In the broadest sense, a *fraud* is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual;"
   
  Until anyone here can prove Craig intentionally deceived anyone the use of the word fraud should not be used. Now as someone with a Twag cable that frankly I dont use all that much I am concerned and do think that if the test comes back with significant silver content then IMHO (as a member) Craig owes an explanation.
   
  as a moderator I am going to insist we refrain from accusing Craig/Whiplash of anything until he can sort this out. As a customer I am going to contact him as I made a purchase based on a claim that now may be untrue.


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## warp08

As a longtime customer of Whiplash Audio--indeed I have invested thousands of dollars in various cables and interconnects made from TWag cables--I am especially concerned.  So far none of my TWag wires (IEM or otherwise) had displayed any sort of coloration.  I am concerned about the value of my investment, but their sound quality so far did not disappoint me.
   
  I did receive a HE-6 TWag replacement cable, which had arrived dead on one channel.  But it wasn't green.  I have sent it back and waiting for it to be fixed as I'm sure it will be.
   
  As far as the allegation of fraud is concerned here, I personally find the idea reprehensible.  Craig is one of the most morally centered, honest people I've ever had the chance to meet at Can Jam last year for the first time.  I am not a chemist, nor do I understand the science and industry practices at the level deep enough to comment on what's going on here and like everyone else will be awaiting the reports.  All I understand is that he purchases cables in thousands of meters bulk spools probably with the label "up to "99.9999" silver cable guaranteed" by whoever manufactures it.  Perhaps the consistency of the purity simply cannot be guaranteed to that level.  I simply don't know.
   
  Obviously those customers who experienced quality issues of ANY KIND with their products should be compensated by refund/replacement, whatever.  To my knowledge Craig has done his best to do right by his customers.


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## AVU

Yeah, I don't support any accusations at Craig at Whiplash - I've bought his stuff, he's a nice guy.  
   
  I think this is basically asking what's going on - there are certainly more than a few isolated cases of silver cables turning green.  I've seen a couple just in the FS ads alone, my old (non-twag) silver cable turned green, Parrots says he's had two turn green, I've heard a bunch of stories of silver cables turning green.  So I think the point is only to see what's going on.  Kudos for the chemical analysis - I'm curious to get to the bottom of this.  
   
  BTW - I'm hoping that the insulation keeps the copper cables from turning green, or else the beautiful TWcu would get weird fast!
   
  -a


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## SACD-Man

Hi guys...
   
  Just to fill in some blanks, I buy the wire from CryoParts which is not a big surprise. I have to lean on him to look into this. I would never sell a product or list a product that was intended to be something else. That is not me. PERIOD.
   
  There are lots of details that needs gathering. It is true that we have only seen in our hands a few examples of any cable turning green. At the time, it seems like the dielectric broke down exposing the wire. The wire that was not exposed, was fine and never to this day turned any color.  
   
  I'm not an expert in the physical make up at the molecular level. I make Audio Cables with the intent that you can hear better sound in the long run. There is no way shape or form that I intended to commit "fraud*. Completely not true. The manufacture of the wire expresses that the purity is correct. 
   
  With all of that said, I need answers myself. SO there are lots of details to gather. This is not a 20 minute project by any means!! 
   
  Also, the new Eclipse was made since there were literally hundreds of requests to make a black wire. This project took months, well past anyone every talking about a "green" cable or wire. 
   
  Craig


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## Audio-Omega

The TWag I bought a year ago is still silver in colour.


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## kiwirugby

Quote:


audio-omega said:


> The TWag I bought a year ago is still silver in colour.


 


  So is mine.


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## AVU

Perhaps due to the potentially inflammatory nature of this thread, and so as to remove any undo suggestion of impropriety before we have any solid evidence of such, we simply RENAME the thread:
   
  "Silver cables turning green."  
   
  I don't own a Twag, but I do own a JH13 silver cable that is half green.  Probably lots more people own silver cables that turn green.  These aren't advertised as 100% silver though, so it could just be copper, or it could be something else common to all silver cables - we don't know yet.  But this way, we don't have a forum header that screams: "Don't buy a Whiplash Twag, because it will turn green" which seems unfair to Craig.


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## Teejaay

Quote: 





sacd-man said:


> Hi guys...
> 
> Just to fill in some blanks, I buy the wire from CryoParts which is not a big surprise. I have to lean on him to look into this. I would never sell a product or list a product that was intended to be something else. That is not me. PERIOD.
> 
> ...


 

  
  so pretty much you never had the wire tested before you sold all this as "silver" when its really spc..... lol
   
  considering it can be tested real quick with some salt and vinegar mix.


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## warp08

Quote: 





teejaay said:


> so pretty much you never had the wire tested before you sold all this as "silver" when its really spc..... lol
> 
> considering it can be tested real quick with some salt and vinegar mix.


 

 I fail to see what do you find amusing about this issue regardless of the outcome.  Perhaps you should withhold your premature conclusion until the results of the official tests are published and the results analyzed.
   
  BTW, when was the last time you've tested the "93 octane" rated and priced gas you've pumped into your car's gas tank with at your local gas station?  This is just a theoretical example just in case you do not yet own an automobile.


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## Teejaay

Quote: 





warp08 said:


> I fail to see what do you find amusing about this issue regardless of the outcome.  Perhaps you should withhold your premature conclusion until the results of the official tests are published and the results analyzed.
> 
> BTW, when was the last time you've tested the "93 octane" rated and priced gas you've pumped into your car's gas tank with at your local gas station?  This is just a theoretical example just in case you do not yet own an automobile.


 



 if its green its copper no need for tests.
   
  i cant really test the gas with 2 household items and 5 mins of my time now can i ...


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## sridhar3

Quote:


teejaay said:


> so pretty much you never had the wire tested before you sold all this as "silver" when its really spc..... lol
> 
> considering it can be tested real quick with some salt and vinegar mix.


 

 Your insinuation is ludicrous.  That's tantamount to saying that everytime one of us buys a cable, we should also cut out a small portion of wire and send it to the lab or test it ourselves to see if it actually is what it's advertised to be.
   
  Some of us would rather just trust the people we're buying stuff from.  Not everybody's out to rip people off.  Craig most certainly doesn't seem to be that sort of person.  If I had to guess, I'd say he's probably been dealing with the people he bought the wire from for a good while.


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## Teejaay

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Quote:
> 
> Your insinuation is ludicrous.  That's tantamount to saying that everytime one of us buys a cable, we should also cut out a small portion of wire and send it to the lab or test it ourselves to see if it actually is what it's advertised to be.
> 
> Some of us would rather just trust the people we're buying stuff from.  Not everybody's out to rip people off.  Craig most certainly doesn't seem to be that sort of person.  If I had to guess, I'd say he's probably been dealing with the people he bought the wire from for a good while.


 
   

 did you even read his post ?
 he admits its happened more the once AND ONLY when Exposed to air, air turns copper green NOT silver. first time this happend he should have tested all his wire and had a good talk with the suppler doesn't seem like he did ?
  any person in their right mind would test what they buy with the most basic of household products. I'm talking craig him self should have tested it.
  has this stopped him from selling the wire no ... will he ? no 900% mark up why would he.
  it might be whoever he buys the wire from is the one doing this to make even more profit off him, who knows all I'm saying is that wire is spc and thats a fact no way around it. for all i know his wire when he first started was silver who knows .
   
  cables are a rip off in the first place you can spend your money as you wish and waste it at the same time but if your buying silver it better damn well be silver.


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## grawk

parrots said:


> Damn, how did all my posts from the JH13 thread get here.




I moved the off topic posts to an appropriate place.


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## b0ck3n

I don't see why people are even trying to detract from the fact that some TWag cables have had a high percentage copper content and therefore turned green. Everyone involved in development and/or distribution of TWag cables is going to try to shift the blame on someone else, and they certainly don't deserve the aid of their consumers in doing so. Whether Craig knowingly sold high copper content cables, though advertised as 99 % pure silver, is irrelevant. He has to take full responsibility for the products that he makes and sells.

I'm a little surprised all you cable gurus out there didn't notice the high copper content in relation to bass response...


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## Prog Rock Man

This seems like a quality control issue, and as such it is an issue huge corporations to one person setups all have the potential to suffer from. We all make mistakes, that is not a problem. It is how we deal with mistakes, that is what is important.
   
  I would point out that no one should worry as all cables sound the same............


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## monoethylene

Quote:  





> I would point out that no one should worry as all cables sound the same............


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## grawk

It seems to me that Craig's working to figure out what's going on, and that everyone with cables that have turned green have had their cables replaced.  So please, if you aren't involved please stop throwing accusations around without basis.


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## Jalo

Quote: 





b0ck3n said:


> Whether Craig knowingly sold high copper content cables, though advertised as 99 % pure silver, is irrelevant. He has to take full responsibility for the products that he makes and sells.
> 
> I'm a little surprised all you cable gurus out there didn't notice the high copper content in relation to bass response...


 

 First of all, I haven't read anywhere that Craig is refusing to take responsibility for the cable that he sells, he didn't ask those people to contact Cryoparts for exchange or replacement, did he?
   
  Secondly, I have a TWag v1 (JH13) for over two years now and it is still silver.  I also have a ALO UPOCC Chain Mail for my JH13 and the bass is clearly better with the ALO cable, with the TWag sounding just like what I expect from a silver cable.


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## b0ck3n

I was being sarcastic. And you put the nail on the head - you hear what you expect to hear.

Craig has stated that if the TWag contains more copper than specified then that's because his supplier has sold him some bad wire. Please read the entire thread before chirping in.


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## cifani090

It looks cool with the cable turning green, i know that its not supose to happen, but what happens, happens. For the people who have had their cables turn green, how long has it had to take for that to happen?


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## guitarplayer

I have refrained from making any comments yet as I am still investigating what is going on. However, I thought I would give you all an update. Even though I do not represent Whiplash Audio, and only provided them raw cable/wire, I wanted to shed some light on the subject of the wire itself.
   
*Silver content of the wire:*
   
  I have had preliminary testing done on the Twag v2 wire by a firm in Salt Lake City called Cascade Refining. Their initial assessment was that the wire was certainly high purity silver, but they did not have the correct equipment to make a definitive statement of purity, or assay. They used the acid test, along with another test of xray flourescence, and they were not comfortable with specifying purity with either of those tools.
   
  The wire is now at AuRIC Labs in Salt Lake City, an ISO 9002 certified lab; they have state of the art equipment and a wealth of experience. They will do a full analysis of the wire, and will provide me with full assay documentation. AuRIC is recognized as one of the leaders in the assay field, and I have no association with them whatsoever, other than meeting with them today to hand off the wire to be tested.
   
  In addition, as soon as my wire vendor (the actual manufacturer of the wire) gets back from vacation, they will look into the issue as well.
   
  So, I am working on the verifying the claims of the original poster,who used an acid test off eBay to determine purity, and am not taking this issue lightly. 
   
   
*Wire Business in General*
   
  Folks, most of us are small businessman, one to five people operations. I believe the majority of us try to run clean operations, give good service, and offer a product that we are proud of. None of the wire manufacturers I have personally met on HeadFi are out to mislead people, or to get rich. If they are in this business to get rich, they need to get out quickly; most of us do this because we enjoy it, as frankly, there is not a lot of money in this business.
   
  And, it's no secret that the majority of cable companies who use OCC, especially silver OCC, use the same vendor to draw the wire. While we all have different “recipes” of strand size, count, insulation makeup, etc., which we all, of course, believe are the “best”, the basic metal raw material is the same. This is not to say that everyone's wire sounds the same, etc., it's just a basic fact that many of use the same vendor to produce the wire.
   
  As I am one of the larger purchasers of raw wire from this vendor, over time, trust is built that they will produce what I ask, to spec. The first few times, I checked it out thoroughly, but over time, when they have given me no reason to doubt them, I trust that the product is what I ordered. I suspect it is the same with many other manufacturers, however, I will not speak for them. So, I did not have this last batch tested, but perhaps the foregoing explains why. I will have every batch from now on tested, that's for sure.
   
*Wire Turning Green*
   
  I am still investigating this. All I have are preliminary findings that have to do with moisture, sweat, and insulator material, but I am still early into the investigation of why the wire is turning odd colors.
   
  So far, it seems that a very small number of the wires have turned color, so, time will also help tell the tale here.
   
*Comments In Thread*
   
  As far as some of the comments in the thread alleging fraud, I have never in my 25+s years in this business been accused of fraud, ie., “the intentional use of deceit, a trick or some dishonest means to deprive another of his/her/its money, property or a legal right.” If the wire turns out to be what it is not supposed to be, this was certainly not intentional, or did I try to trick anyone.
   
  Yes, I have broken off communication with Parrots. There seemed to be a communication breakdown, perhaps due to the language barrier, and I decided rather than to continue to irritate him, I would just not answer his emails. I lay no blame on Parrots for this, it was most likely my use of the English language that caused a misunderstanding. I feel no need to communicate further with him as I am unsure of his motives, motivation, or even who he is.
   
  It is easy to sign onto a website, pick a moniker, and post anything one wants to. Who I am is no secret, and for you that don't know:
   
  Lee Weiland, President
  Locus Design Group, LLC
  212 E SR71 #170
  Saratoga Springs, UT 84043
www.cryo-parts.com
   
  I encourage anyone who is accusing me of malfeasance to post your details, so we know who is who, and know who the players are and what their motivations may be.
   
  I plan on this being my only post on the matter until I get the assay results back.


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## Kunlun

nvm


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## guitarplayer

Oh good grief.  Here are a few of my copies, there seem to be at least one difference, ie, this sentence:  
   

```
I also tested a sterling >>> silver ring and the test again showed it to be what it was and also >>> got the correct result with some silver plated copper wire. >>> I then tested some TWag V2 wire and the results showed that the wire >>> has a high copper content and has a maximum of 80% silver in it.
```
   
  Here is a full copy.
   


```
I meant there have never been a single report of silver turning green anywhere and it's just you're cables which is very odd. On Saturday, April 23, 2011, matt ali [url=mailto:myparrots1@gmail.com]<myparrots1@gmail.com>[/url] wrote:
```



> ```
> > So the only thing I really need to know from you is why you're wire is > turning green sane as what happens to stock copper cables when there > has never ever been any anywhere of silver ever turning green but only > in you're cables, is that > not a little odd because there are people with other silver cables > from other companies and none of those have ever turned. > I could pm everyone who has had the TWag cables for awhile and I'm > sure the majority have been having the same problem. > > On Saturday, April 23, 2011, matt ali [url=mailto:myparrots1@gmail.com]<myparrots1@gmail.com>[/url] wrote:
> ```
> 
> ...


 
   
   Here are more:
   


```
Meant you say all the above is not necessary. On Saturday, April 23, 2011, matt ali [url=mailto:myparrots1@gmail.com]<myparrots1@gmail.com>[/url] wrote:
```



> ```
> > You say all of the above is not messaged just because you can change > the cable for ne but I think it is and I doubt it's just a batch > problem as I've listened to various TWag cables and they all sound the > same so if it was just a batch then then there would be some sound > differences but the cables I tested sound exactly as the the TWag > does. > This is not just about replacing a cable, if this is not a pure silver > cable like everyone was led to believe then people have a right to > know don't you think. > > On Saturday, April 23, 2011, Locus Design [url=mailto:sales@locus-design.com]<sales@locus-design.com>[/url] wrote:
> ```
> 
> ...


 
   
  And more:
   

```
I have emailed you in a separate email regarding exchanging some of the cables for something else and this does not include the 2 cables I have cut up. after doing my calculations the cables I wish to have exchanged total a value of exactly $1500 so let me know how you wish to proceed. On Tuesday, April 19, 2011, Locus Design Group LLC [url=mailto:sales@locus-design.com]<sales@locus-design.com>[/url] wrote:
```


```
> On 4/19/2011 2:56 PM, matt ali wrote: > > Hello Lee, > > Recently after a TWag cable I purchased turned green after a short > while which stunned me somewhat as I've never seen or heard of silver > turning green with oxidation I done some research and found that > silver will not turn green but dark grey/black with oxidation but > silver which has a very high copper content can and will turn green > with oxidation. > I decided to actually test the wire myself as I found it hard to > believe you or whiplas would mislead people in this way. > On my first test with a silver testing kit I purchased off eBay I > first tested some pure silver wire I buy from a goldsmiths and the > test indicated that this was pure silver, I also tested a sterling > silver ring and the test again showed it to be what it was and also > got the correct result with some silver plated copper wire. > I then tested some TWag V2 wire and the results showed that the wire > has a high copper content and has a maximum of 80% silver in it. > > Do you have anything to say to this? > > > I have no idea what your experience is with wire metallurgy and not sure how accurate a test purchased off eBay is, so I would have no comment on the results at this point.  This wire was certified 100% pure solid silver by the manufacturer who makes it for me, and they generally have strict quality control, so that gives me pause, enough to question the results.  If the results were verified by an independent certified metallurgist using state of the art equipment, I would be concerned, however, being that the wire was tested by yourself with a kit off eBay, I cannot, and will not make any comments as to your results, until I was to consult with my legal counsel and the vendor who supplied me the wire. > > If this wire was found to be not as my vendor stated it, I would certainly need to explore my legal options, with my legal counsel on retainer.  However, the first step would be to have the wire would need to be tested by a qualified, independent, testing lab. > > Also, where did you get the wire?  Did you get it from Craig?  As, I know you did not get it from me.  If it was not purchased directly from Craig, or myself, I cannot even guarantee that the wire is genuine, as there have been instances of some knock offs coming out of Asia.  If it was purchased from Craig, please contact him, so he can replace the cable. > > Out of curiosity, was this TWag v1, or TWag v2? > > There was certainly no ill will, or intent to deceive on my part, or Craig's part.  I would never say something that I knew was false. > > Peace, > > Lee
```
   
  And, one more:
   

```
Ok I've now decided to return all the cables I have, these don't include the 2 that I have cut pieces from, there's total of 4 different cables and the total value of these come to exactly $1500. I also have couple line out docks and interconnects but I will keep hold of these. So if you agree to change these items fir something of the same value from the site then let me know and I will tell you what I want.
```
   
   
  Matt, I did not mean that you couldn't understand English, and I said as much above in my statement, blaming my use of the English language as the cause of our misunderstanding.  I am sorry if that ofended you, I didn't mean anything by it.  I just felt that if we continued to communicate, I would irritate you more as apparently I was not getting my point across in the manner I wished to.
   
  I think I have been pretty up front with you, and with the community.  I am getting the wire assayed by a world renowned lab, talking with metallurgists, and having the manufacturer look into the problem as well.  If the wire comes back as not promised, I will have legal deal with my manufacturer, and I will deal with the HeadFi community as I stated in my response to you.
   
  EDIT--Add this, just received:
   

```
After you're comments about me saying I can't understand English and there was a language barrier I have posted my whole conversation with you so people can see that you lied in you're post then they can ask themselves what else you could be lying about if you can lie so easily.
```
   
  I really don't know what else to say, or do, at this point.
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote: 





kunlun said:


> Hello Lee,
> 
> Parrots lives IN ENGLAND, your lie about his facility with English is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


 

 I never threatened legal action against anyone, except my manufacturer, if the wire comes back as not as I ordered.
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee


----------



## Kunlun

Quote: 





guitarplayer said:


> I never threatened legal action against anyone, except my manufacturer, if the wire comes back as not as I ordered.
> 
> Peace,
> 
> Lee


 
  I read the part where you tell Matt to talk to your legal counsel and that you can't have anyone accusing you of malfeasance, etc. as implying the possibility of legal action against Matt. 
   
  I found that to be ridiculous.
   
  I'm glad to hear your clarification.
   
  It's great that you are taking this seriously. 
   
  Problems happen to every company. If they are handled the right way, it only increases customers' confidence and the company's reputation. If the company doesn't handle it well, then it erodes their reputation.
   
  If you had told Matt, "I'm so sorry, this is completely unacceptable, I will do whatever it takes to make this right" that would have gone over a lot better.  The stuff like "If I find out the cable is not pure silver as I was led to believe, then I will deal with it at that time," the part about where you say you don't know what a test off ebay can show and "do you have proof of purchase" with the part about making it right only if you find there's a problem really shows the wrong attitude. It has nothing to do with english. It has everything to do with starting with taking care of the customer and getting the facts as part of that, rather than demanding the customer show proof, not believing the customer, then throwing in something about making it right if you find there's actually a real problem. It's only going to make people upset with the poor service you've provided.


----------



## guitarplayer

> It's great that you are taking this seriously.


 

  

 Indeed.  I am taking this seriously, if there is a problem, I need to fix it. 
   
  I have been very open and upfront about who I have had test the wire thus far (http://cascaderefining.com/), who did a chemical test which showed the wire as high purity silver.  However, the tech did not feel confident enough of the results of the acid test to state any type of purity level.  He also explained to me that since the silver was pure that the x-ray flourescence machine they have was not designed to really give a stable purity reading either as it works better when there are more trace elements, not just a single pure element.  A metallurgist would probably understand what he told me, but I blanked out.
   
  AuRIC Labs (http://www.auriclabs.com/) has the wire now, and is going to do a test that involves a mass spec, and some other things the metallurgist told me that went in and out of my brain.  He assured me that it is the best way to assess the purity of the wire I brought to him.  He is going to provide me with two assays, one for the new Eclipse wire, and one for TWag v2.  These will be certified, signed assays, by a respected lab, and should serve to placate anyone's fears that they are getting what they pay for.
   
  I will also be talking with metallurgists and plastics experts about why a silver wire would turn colors.  Craig is also exploring this as well.
   
  Now, if the wire doesn't come back as pure as was spec'd, then opens up a new phase where I will have to have some serious "talks" with my supplier, to solve any problems...but that is between me and them.  While I am dealing with that, Craig and I will have to figure out the best way to address the members of the HeadFi community who have purchased this wire.
   
  So, this is not an overnight process.  The first thing I need is the assay reports, then I can go from there.
   
  If there is a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is to have every batch of new wire tested, if any claims of purity are made.  I, for one, will be sure to have every single new run of wire assayed before I put it up for sale.
   
  I am not perfect, and I make mistakes.  However, I try my best to make things right if I screw them up.
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee


----------



## debitsohn

wow.... what. i just ran across this thread and things like this is exactly why i dont really surf the forum anymore.
   
  so it boils down to whos at fault
   
  the wire maker, middle man (cyro), or the retailer + middleman....  i dont know anyone personally but if i had to think who in this chain is at fault.. it would be the wire maker.  Craig and Lee have very niche markets.  if they try to pull something like this, on a group of ppl like this, they wouldnt be in the business for long.
   
  you ppl saying that it has to be them, posting personal emails, and committing libel against craig and lee based on... well.... nothing.
   
  ive been on this site for a short time.. a lil over a year, and in that time.. it seems the ppl and content has gone to hell.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


debitsohn said:


> wow.... what. i just ran across this thread and things like this is exactly why i dont really surf the forum anymore.
> 
> so it boils down to whos at fault
> 
> ...


 

 Feels like everybody's on a witch hunt now.  How is finding a blameworthy party and making them look bad going to improve the situation.  Easy answer, it's not.
   
  I think everybody needs to take some quiet time, calm down, and wait for the official lab results.  If the cable is not the same as what Lee and Craig thought it was when they sold it, I'm sure they'll do what they need to do to rectify the situation.
   
  Parrots, parroting what you've been saying for your last three or four posts over and over again isn't changing anything or helping the situation.  Proving that you're right and they're wrong only functions to appease your ego, but doesn't do anything about the actual problem.  I don't think your head is going to explode or you're going to have a fatal episode of internal bleeding if the cable problem doesn't get resolved overnight.  Things are being blown way out of proportion here.  I hate to say it, but it's still JUST a cable.  When you put things into perspective, doesn't it seem ridiculous to be at somebody's throat over a thin piece of metal wrapped in plastic?
   
  Once the lab results are back, Lee and Craig will probably start to speak to their wire supplier, and will also simultaneously start to figure out how to best serve the customers who have received a defective product.  These two processes will likely occur in parallel and concurrently.  Just take pause, put down your axes/torches/pitchforks, and give these guys a chance to react.  They're obviously not out to "get" anybody, so why is everybody out to "get" them?


----------



## jp11801

Folks twice now 2 moderators have asked that the thread hold off on accusations while Lee and Craig sort this out and twice now it's been pretty much ignored.  Please do not ignore this third request.


----------



## DaBomb77766

Guys, give the ad hominem attacks a rest.  This is about the cables, nothing more, nothing less.  Most of us here could honestly care less if there was a misunderstanding with email conversations you had, and going to great lengths to defend yourself by attacking the other certainly isn't helping.
   
  If you really have such big issues with each other, then go and do the appropriate tests yourself.  Once you've confirmed the exact cause of the problem, you can go making accusations then.  But right now, just attacking each other like this, it's not going to help anyone.


----------



## Kunlun

Quote: 





guitarplayer said:


> Indeed.  I am taking this seriously, if there is a problem, I need to fix it.
> 
> I have been very open and upfront about who I have had test the wire thus far (http://cascaderefining.com/), who did a chemical test which showed the wire as high purity silver.  However, the tech did not feel confident enough of the results of the acid test to state any type of purity level.  He also explained to me that since the silver was pure that the x-ray flourescence machine they have was not designed to really give a stable purity reading either as it works better when there are more trace elements, not just a single pure element.  A metallurgist would probably understand what he told me, but I blanked out.
> 
> ...


 
  Great.
  
  My apologies for any inflammatory language.


----------



## monoethylene

Fully appreciated!! Nice effort so far..


----------



## AVU

Remember when photographing predominately white objects to increase your exposure time by 2-3 full f-stops.  (sorry, pedagogical instincts of a photo instructor)


----------



## guitarplayer

Thanks for the photos.  These will help Craig and I to figure out the problem, as I don't have any here that has done that, a good picture is very helpful. 
   
  Just be be clear:
   
  The discoloration appears on only one conductor of the twisted pair from the split up to the over-molded end? 
  The discoloration then spirals around one of each of the two conductors of the twisted pair from the over-molded end to the split, then stops? 
  The other conductor of each twisted pair after the split is not showing the spiral discoloration, but is showing some spots of discoloration? 
  And this discoloration is only appearing on the products with the over-molded ends?
   
  I appreciate the extra info, all info helps.  We'll get to the bottom of this.
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee


----------



## guitarplayer

Okay, thanks for the additional info.  Every bit helps.
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee


----------



## mikemercer

the mark of a genuinely concerned businessman here (last response).  Wow - you guys get NUTS.  I think things like this should be settled through personal communication, you know, as we used to do before all this thread madness??  I can't speak for other peoples experiences, but I know both men here (at Cryo and Whiplash) personally, and I cannot imagine either of them trying to get over on their customers.  I do know people in this business who do, with regularity (and its surprising just how successful they are) shill snake oil without losing sleep.  These guys are not those types of men - and I've literally grown up in this business, and the people I consider true friends do not comprise a very long list - These guys being among them.  So, like I said - I have NO experience with this particular incident, or what's being tossed around here, but I do know I've never experienced a problem where I would call their character into question. 
   
  I'm about growing this industry - and I think if a problem is discovered - then take it direct to the people themselves.  I just know that's what I would do.


----------



## SACD-Man

Quote: 





mikemercer said:


> the mark of a genuinely concerned businessman here (last response).  Wow - you guys get NUTS.  I think things like this should be settled through personal communication, you know, as we used to do before all this thread madness??  I can't speak for other peoples experiences, but I know both men here (at Cryo and Whiplash) personally, and I cannot imagine either of them trying to get over on their customers.  I do know people in this business who do, with regularity (and its surprising just how successful they are) shill snake oil without losing sleep.  These guys are not those types of men - and I've literally grown up in this business, and the people I consider true friends do not comprise a very long list - These guys being among them.  So, like I said - I have NO experience with this particular incident, or what's being tossed around here, but I do know I've never experienced a problem where I would call their character into question.
> 
> I'm about growing this industry - and I think if a problem is discovered - then take it direct to the people themselves.  I just know that's what I would do.


 

 Thanks Mike!!
   
  Like Lee and I have said on separate occasions that we will take this situation head on and will not run from it. There is lots to discuss and everyone does have an unique situation. Often manufacturers like Lee and I think that what we do have no affect to sound and the results are not worth the investment. Often we are targeted because of this. Not saying this thread is an example of it, however there are lots of you that can contest to our dedication to this industry and certainly the results. If everyone knew how much it costs to produce these products, and the amount of efforts put in, most of you would understand why Lee and I take this very seriously. 
   
  Anyways, not trying to beat a dead horse, but I CAN speak for both of us that we will have more information on this. 
   
  Also like Mike said, please contact me direct with questions and concerns. csanborn@whiplashaudio.com
   
  Craig


----------



## Xymordos

I thought silver doesn't even oxidize at room temperature? It only reacts with sulfur in the air doesn't it?


----------



## DaBomb77766

Quote: 





xymordos said:


> I thought silver doesn't even oxidize at room temperature? It only reacts with sulfur in the air doesn't it?


 


  This would be relevant if it weren't for the fact these are turning green.  And looking at wikipedia, it can react with a few other elements too.


----------



## paulybatz

I do not think that pure silver should turn green, copper does.
  Quote: 





avu said:


> someone was just selling a Twag on the marketplace section that had turned green.  I think this happens to all silver regardless.


----------



## DaBomb77766

Quote: 





paulybatz said:


> I do not think that pure silver should turn green, copper does.


 


  Silver should turn black, not green, when it oxidizes.


----------



## FuzzyDunlop

Anything happening with this, surely after a month there should be a definitive answer? I really liked the look of whiplash's gear and was considering ordering an Imod but after reading this thread and the two above about customer service in general I'm less inclined


----------



## SACD-Man

Quote: 





fuzzydunlop said:


> Anything happening with this, surely after a month there should be a definitive answer? I really liked the look of whiplash's gear and was considering ordering an Imod but after reading this thread and the two above about customer service in general I'm less inclined


 

 Hi there,
   
  We are waiting for all of the assay to come in and than it will be announced. Of course if you have any customer service issues you can certainly contact me directly.
   
  Thank You,
  Craig


----------



## guitarplayer

I have the results of the fire assays on the TWag v2 and Eclipse now.  Both are high purity silver, as expected. The "Black Wire" is Eclipse, the "Clear Wire" is TWag v2.  Both came back as "mint grade" silver.  See the report below of the fire assay reports. 
   

   
  I have also sent two more samples of  TWag v2 and Eclipse for and ICP-OES analysis, which is even more accurate.  I should have these back shortly.  In addition, I have sent samples of TWag v1 in for both fire assay and and ICP-OES analysis; I sent some v1 that was not green, as well as some that was.  I should have report on all four of these back shortly as well.
   
  So far, the above report is what I have.  Other reports should be in within a week, or so.
   
  In the meantime, If your v1 is turning green, please contact Craig, so that he can get you taken care of.
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee


----------



## El_Doug

Fascinating.  Perhaps a single bad batch of wire was accidentally sent to cryoparts, and was an isolated incident?


----------



## Teejaay

Quote: 





guitarplayer said:


> I have the results of the fire assays on the TWag v2 and Eclipse now.  Both are high purity silver, as expected. The "Black Wire" is Eclipse, the "Clear Wire" is TWag v2.  Both came back as "mint grade" silver.  See the report below of the fire assay reports.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 is'nt that a test of the purity of the silver not the composition of the metal.


----------



## DaBomb77766

Quote: 





teejaay said:


> is'nt that a test of the purity of the silver not the composition of the metal.


 


  That's the same thing, is it not?  If the purity is high enough then it doesn't really matter what else is in it, it wouldn't cause such a dramatic change in colour.


----------



## goodvibes

If there is contamination of some V1 cables, it's strictly a vendor issue as in, either from the firm that draws the wire for them or the stock of metal used. It could be something as simple as copper left on a machine being transferred to the outside of the silver. That twag didn't get what's ordered is not really their fault and as long as they make good, there should be no problem. I haven't heard the twag but I'm up for any blind cable test on kit of my choice. It does matter. I haven't been a fan of silver in the past but that's because silver plated copper and alloys tend to be bright. Pure silver should be a great conductor and is probably why they've gone that route. I'm not sure of how much of a fan I am of varied conductor size but with the limitations of diameter here, I understand the voicing aspect. Turning green is valid complaint that a vendor needs to acknowledge and correct without a fight. Everybody forthright and responsive is all we need. Finding that a sample is contaminated doesn't condemn TWAG. Stuff happens. It's how it's corrected that matters. Knowing that some of this made to production should have a set policy of lifetime replacement for anything that turns green and all is good. You can't expect more.


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote: 





teejaay said:


> is'nt that a test of the purity of the silver not the composition of the metal.


 

 No, that is a test of the complete wire, the total makeup of the wire of v2 and Eclipse.  I have also sent some more TWag v2 and Eclipse.  Also in for fire assay and ICP-OES testing is TWag v1, those tests are forthcoming.
   
  There is good information on the interwebs abut both fire assay and ICP-OES, if you are interested in finding out more about the processes.
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote: 





goodvibes said:


> If there is contamination of some V1 cables, it's strictly a vendor issue as in, either from the firm that draws the wire for them or the stock of metal used. It could be something as simple as copper left on a machine being transferred to the outside of the silver. That twag didn't get what's ordered is not really their fault and as long as they make good, there should be no problem. I haven't heard the twag but I'm up for any blind cable test on kit of my choice. It does matter. I haven't been a fan of silver in the past but that's because silver plated copper and alloys tend to be bright. Pure silver should be a great conductor and is probably why they've gone that route. I'm not sure of how much of a fan I am of varied conductor size but with the limitations of diameter here, I understand the voicing aspect. Turning green is valid complaint that a vendor needs to acknowledge and correct without a fight. Everybody forthright and responsive is all we need. Finding that a sample is contaminated doesn't condemn TWAG. Stuff happens. It's how it's corrected that matters. Knowing that some of this made to production should have a set policy of lifetime replacement for anything that turns green and all is good. You can't expect more.


 


  Thank you, well said.
   
  I will leave the customer service stuff up to Craig, he is the first line of contact for any problems, as he is the retailer of the finished goods.  I am handling the technical stuff since I designed the wire, had it manufactured, and have the contacts and expertise to get to the bottom of the TWag v1 issue.
   
  TWag v2 and Eclipse is fine, as seen above, and the forthcoming tests will also bear this out; so don't hesitate to buy some from Craig if the mood strikes.
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee


----------



## b0ck3n

Quote: 





goodvibes said:


> I haven't heard the twag but I'm up for any blind cable test on kit of my choice. It does matter.


 

  
  Go for it.


----------



## goodvibes

Already passed with other cables with someone else switching for me. In fact I went to freinds house and noted something was off about his system. He had changed his speaker cable. Just haven't heard the twag.


----------



## b0ck3n

Now I'm curious, how was the test set up?


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote: 





parrots said:


> I will have the results for the V1 this week as that's the actual cable that has been turning green. Good to see the V2 is ok.


 
   
  Great.  Please post a JPEG of the entire assay report, with the name, address, and phone number of the lab clearly listed, as well as the name of the metallurgist who performed the test.  Also, a certified lab and metallurgist will specify which test was performed, and which varaiation of the test.  They should provide you with a form similar to what I posted above.
   
  I will do the same as soon as the results of the fire assay, and ICP-OES I am having done on v1 arrive;  I should have those ASAP, perhaps in the next few days.
   
  It will be interesting to compare the results.  I sent v1 from two different batches, one that was not turning green, one that was, and it will help for me to compare all three results to get to the bottom of this.
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote: 





parrots said:


> I will post the the entire letter email or whatever they send me with the results, so now you say you actually have batches of the V1 that are actually turning green when before I was told by Craig this was happening either due to sweat or climate and earlier in the thread it was said it was only happening to wire that was damaged and exposed, funny ain't it how before you and craig was saying how rare this is and now you seem to have a whole batch of the wire that's turning green.


 

 This is an ongoing investigation, as things come to light, and new information surfaces, suppositions that were made before testing may be proven wrong.  And, when I said "batch" above, I mean the spool I have left of v1, I should have been more specific.
   
  Craig sent me some v1 that was turning green that he had replaced for customers, which I then sent in for analysis, along with some of the stock that I have left; both of these samples were sent to AuRIC Labs http://www.auriclabs.com/, for both fire assay and ICP-OES, as stated above.  I do not personally have any v1 stock that is turning green. I am getting to the bottom of this.  I am being up front, honest, and posting complete information for all to see. Again, you seem to think I have some desire to rip people off, or to obscure information.  Again, I will say, I do not.  I think my actions thus far have proven this out, and once all the assays are posted, everyone can make up their own minds.
   
  Please post the contact information of the metallurgical lab that you sent the samples to, you have that information now, I am sure.  I posted that type of information well before I received and posted the results of the fire assay above;  then backed it up with a full and certified assay from the lab I named.  I posted the information ahead of time so that those who were so inclined could check the credentials of the lab I am using for my assays.  Please do the same, so interested parties can check the credentials of the lab you are using ahead  of time, if they so desire.
   
  Then, once you have the results of the tests the lab you are using are performing, the results can be compared.  Your results, plus the results from the lab I am using will help solve the mystery of why the wire is turning colors.  As I said before, the more information, the better.
   
  Also, it bears repeating, if you have any cables that are turning green, please contact Craig so he can rectify the situation.
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee
   
  EDIT:  add assay lab name and link, as well as remove "have any" that I had written twice.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





guitarplayer said:


> Please post a JPEG of the entire assay report, with the name, address, and phone number of the lab clearly listed, as well as the name of the metallurgist who performed the test.


 

 Yeah, right.
   
  Ask Barack Obama how well THAT worked out for him and his birth certificate. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  se


----------



## jp11801

Lee thanks for working to gett to the bottom of this, hopefully it is just a spool that was bad or something else weird.
   
  Folks Lee and Craig are doing thier best to resolve the situation, please don't take thier words out of context. Both guys are small shops and thier reputation is all they have, I've met both Lee and Craig and my impression is they are both hardworking businessmen. They've offered to replace any wire that is discolored and soon well be able to see the results of the V1 wire as well.


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote: 





parrots said:


> You seem to be getting very defensive about someone else having these tests done other then you


 

 Nope, not at all, if someone wants to get any of the wire I sell tested, by all means, do so.  As long as they are willing to disclose the contact details of the respected company did the assay, the method used, the name of the metallurgist, and an unaltered copy of the assay report.  That way, one can verify with the company that the document and company are legit.
   
  If you remember, this all started over you testing the wire with an acid kit from eBay.  You then sent me an email, that is posted earlier in the thread (post #72), claiming that you had tested both v1 and v2, and the results indicated both as having a high copper content, here is a snippet:
   

```
I also tested a sterling >>> silver ring and the test again showed it to be what it was and also >>> got the correct result with some silver plated copper wire. >>> I then tested some TWag V2 wire and the results showed that the wire >>> has a high copper content and has a maximum of 80% silver in it.
```
   
  When I stopped communicating with you, as I felt our communications were going nowhere and something was getting lost in the meaning of my responses to your queries, you took it upon yourself to post the contents of emails between us, thus opening up our conversation to public scrutiny.  You also posted a barrage of posts, of which a number have been somehow deleted.  Perhaps there is a bug in the HF forum software that deleted and put ... in many of your emails where text used to be?
   
  The public scrutiny of our email chain is fine, as I said the same things in the emails, that I have been saying since in the forum, ie:
   
  I don't know how accurate an "eBay test" is
  I will investigate it
  I will have a lab test it
  If there is a problem, I will have legal look into it
  If anyone has a problem, talk to Craig, and he will rectify it
   
  At that point, because you had stated that v2 was also testing high in copper content, I only sent v2 to the metallurgist for assay. 
   
  Well...so far, we know that your "eBay test" was clearly wrong on v2. 
   
  Once more information came to light that it seemed that the v1 is the wire that is turning green, I had Craig overnight me some samples of v1 that had turned color, and submitted it to AuRIC (www.auriclabs.com) as well as a sample of the v1 I had left on hand, which had not turned color.
   
  Perhaps your "eBay test" it will be right on v1, that is yet to be seen.  I will have the fire assay results and ICP-OES results very soon, and will post them.
   
  So, just to be clear with you, "parrots", if you choose to have the wire assayed, I look forward to the results.  As long as the contact info of the company is clearly posted, what method is used is specified, the name of the metallurgist, and the full certified assay report.  If the information is reliable, it will help with the ongoing investigation.
   
  So, just to be clear, here are where things stand:
   
  I am still investigating
  TWag v2 is mint grade silver, as proven by a fire assay.  Soon I will have an ICP-OES test as well.  Feel free to buy TWag v2!
  I am awaiting a fire assay test, and an ICP-OES test on TWag v1
  Anyone who has had a problem with v1 turning color, has either been taken care of by Craig, is in the process of being take of by Craig, or is welcome to contact Craig to be taken care of
   
  Why v1 is turning green is still a mystery at this point, until I receive the assay reports, and make sure the purity is where it is supposed to be, I am in a holding pattern.  If v1 comes back as pure silver, I will need to talk with some plastic experts.
   
  None of the above changes the fact that I have been saying from the beginning that I am concerned, and for those of you that have v1 that is turning, please contact Craig for rectification.  Craig is the point man for all customer concerns, as he is/was the retailer of the cables made from this wire. 
   
  I have made arrangements with Craig to be able to take care of any who report a color change of v1 to him.  He will be in charge of this going forward, once I get the second set of assay results back and posted.  After I get the second set of assay's back, and post them, I don't intend to spend any more time here at Head-Fi.  So, lean on Craig as the point man for any color issues with v1.  He is capable, and equipped to handle any problems, I have only been in this thread as my integrity was called into question, and Craig needed me to answer questions, and investigate things of a more technical nature.
   
  Being accused of being a fraud, the mean spirited posts by those not even involved, and the "guilty until proven innocent" mentality that seems pervasive here does not sit well with me.  I have been in business a very long time, and am well known for my integrity, caring, and honesty.  The emotional toll of having my integrity called into question by posters cloaked in anonymity, coupled with the demands of taking care of a terminally ill wife, have quenched my desire to "be a part of the community" here at Head-Fi.  I am going to have Jude pull my forum down (which I never post in anyways...), and only visit if a customer specifically asks me to.
   
  I will post the assay results on v1 (fire assay and ICP-OES), and v2 and Eclipse (fire assay above, ICP-OES forthcoming) as soon as I get them back.  All the important questions/issues at that point should be answered and addresses:
   
  The purity of v2
  The purity of Eclipse
  The purity of v1
   
  And, arrangements have been made so that any issues with v1 will be addressed by Craig.
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee
   
  EDIT--fixed AuRIC link.


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote: 





jp11801 said:


> Lee thanks for working to gett to the bottom of this, hopefully it is just a spool that was bad or something else weird.
> 
> Folks Lee and Craig are doing thier best to resolve the situation, please don't take thier words out of context. Both guys are small shops and thier reputation is all they have, I've met both Lee and Craig and my impression is they are both hardworking businessmen. They've offered to replace any wire that is discolored and soon well be able to see the results of the V1 wire as well.


 


  Thank you.
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee


----------



## Steve Eddy

Agreed.
   
  Although we haven't met in person, I know Lee and have dealt with him on a number of occasions and consider him among the good people out there.
   
  se


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote: 





parrots said:


> I will post the details of the place I'm using along with the results when I have them and only then and it's up to everyone else to make up their minds regarding the results, I have not even sent the wire yet if I'm honest but I will do this week and it's just takes them a day from receiving the wire to test it and have the results so I will have the results by the end of the week, I have also cut up some V2 wire and both are now packed and ready to send.
> You seem to be getting very defensive about someone else having these tests done other then you and I have never accused you or craig of trying to rip people off yet you seem to keep making that assumption and suggesting that's what I'm saying when that has not been the case.
> 
> Anyway, il post my results this week for sure, I'm going away Wednesday so il ask them to email me and if they sent a letter with the results then I have a friend looking after my place and il get him to post that here and at that point I will also post the link to the company that was used.
> ...


 

 You're the only one I see getting defensive here.  Lee has done everything possible to try to clarify and rectify the situation and you keep baiting him.  Either post your metallurgical tests, or be quiet.  You seem to be doing everything you can to try to tarnish his reputation.  I've known him for years and met him personally and he has never been anything but kind and helpful, and he would never knowingly sell wire he didn't think was what he was advertising.  He has said time and time again he and Craig will replace any wire that has turned green with wire he has now shown to be pure silver, so I don't know why you insist on tormenting him.  You seem to be the one with the hidden agenda.


----------



## guitarplayer

Ha, indeed.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Anyone interested enough can call the metallurgist who performed the tests on my wire and speak with him, if they wish though! 
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee
  
  Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Yeah, right.
> 
> Ask Barack Obama how well THAT worked out for him and his birth certificate.
> 
> ...


----------



## guitarplayer

Right back at you!
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee
  
  Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Although we haven't met in person, I know Lee and have dealt with him on a number of occasions and consider him among the good people out there.
> 
> se


----------



## guitarplayer

Thanks Phil!  And, Phil even says this after I have denied him on more than one occasion use of the my TWag to use as internal wire, as I promised Craig an exclusive, and I stand by my word. 
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee
  
  Quote: 





ipodpj said:


> You're the only one I see getting defensive here.  Lee has done everything possible to try to clarify and rectify the situation and you keep baiting him.  Either post your metallurgical tests, or be quiet.  You seem to be doing everything you can to try to tarnish his reputation.  I've known him for years and met him personally and he has never been anything but kind and helpful, and he would never knowingly sell wire he didn't think was what he was advertising.  He has said time and time again he and Craig will replace any wire that has turned green with wire he has now shown to be pure silver, so I don't know why you insist on tormenting him.  You seem to be the one with the hidden agenda.


----------



## SACD-Man

Yes we are working on this issue and of course I will replace anyone's cable that has turned green.
   
  I do need to follow a process, so please email me at csanborn@whiplashaudio.com for further details.
  Plus we will have more details once they are available. 
   
  Thanks guys,
  Craig


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


parrots said:


> Me getting defensive, what reason exactly would be the reason for that and what exact hidden agenda could I possibly have?
> Yes I've been offered replacement and I don't want it because I want to find out what the $300 a piece Iem I was buying are made of and if you call that a hidden agenda then so be it.
> As far as I can see, all the posts Lee has mentioned me he has been trying to discredit me one way or the other when all I'm doing here is trying to find out what my hard earned cash went towards.
> 
> ...


 

 You really need to squash this beef man.  Get your replacement and just let it go.  You're one guy standing in the middle of a crowd shouting at the top of your lungs, and I'm pretty sure everybody's sick of hearing it.


----------



## 563

just wondering - parrots, are you the same person who does the youtube videos - such as the one here?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ndPJIbNyvs  - that person is a parrot fan as well.
   
  also, forgive me if i'm mistaken, but did you ever use a different name (or names) on head-fi in the past?


----------



## b0ck3n

Quote:


goodvibes said:


> Already passed with other cables with someone else switching for me. In fact I went to freinds house and noted something was off about his system. He had changed his speaker cable. Just haven't heard the twag.


 

  
  You've yet to share the details of the test you mention. I find this statement to be signifant as if true, and up to ABX standards, even if you're the only participant, it's the first known instance where someone has passed a non sighted test. I know I'm not supposed to discuss it here, so moderators feel free to delete it, but the post I've quoted is as off base, completely unsubstantiated, potentially misleading, and should be removed as well.


----------



## guitarplayer

See below.  My responses are in red, except for "Results are in".
  
  Quote: 





parrots said:


> *Results are in*
> 
> Let me first say here that i have no hidden motives as been suggested by Lee from Cryo Parts in an attempt to discredit me, all i have wanted to do here was find out what me and many others having been paying our money for and if we were getting what was payed for but Lee seems to have been going out of his way to try and make me look like the bad guy here.
> 
> ...


----------



## guitarplayer

Please keep libeling me and making defamatory statements.  Please keep reading things into what I wrote, and do not pay attention to what was actually written.
   
  I think that any reasonable person, who reads the entire thread will understand that there was no ill will on my part, no intent to deceive, and that I am taking responsibility for a vendor not providing me what they claimed they were.  At least that appears to be the case, as evidenced by your assay report.  As soon as I get mine, I will post it, and then comparisons can be made.
   
  Again--Anyone that is not happy with their v1 can get it replaced.  Craig has been doing so, and will continue to do so.  I have made arrangements with him, that will allow him to do this.
   
  If one reads the thread, I think I have been up front, kept things transparent, and have been honest about the situation.  Once my assays are back, and if the results are similar to yours for the v1, then I know I have been duped by a vendor.  All I can say is that this is a lesson learned, and that it won't happen again, as every batch from now on will be tested before release--even if the wire is from a trusted, respected, and well known source.  But, if an error, or if I was misled, happened, it happened.  Nothing I can do about that now, except offer an apology and continue on with my promise that anyone who is not happy with their v1 can get it replaced.
   
  If I admit there was a mistake made, offer to make it right to those affected, and then follow through on that promise, what else can I do? 
   

  
  Quote: 





parrots said:


> You knew about the wire turning green over a year ago yet did nothing, when I also bought this to you're attention you said testing was not required. Why after someone says this could have copper in it would you say that and why did you not have the wire tested when this was first bought to you're attention.
> My name is Matt Ali, or did you miss that in my emails, why would I need to hide what my name is? If you wanted that info you could contact Craig as he must keep some records of who he sells cables to.
> You been cought and that's all there is to it as far as I'm concerned, pure silver does not turn green and everyone knows that and the results I have posted clearly show why the cable has been turning green, because you are getting cables made of cheap silver and adding copper to it for a different sound.
> You sell even the V2 at 7N purity which would obviously be much much more expensive to buy but flog 3N silver instead lining you're pockets.
> Anyway, talking to you is a waste of time, you gave been cought out and thats all there is to it.


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote: 





parrots said:


> Note: I have no affiliation with Whiplash Audio or Cryo Parts.


 


  That's for sure. 
   
  Please also stop spamming every forum with posts about v1 being eligible to be replaced.  Between you spamming many of the different forum sections, coupled with your libelous and defamatory statements about me in the main thread, is not helping what you view as a cause celebre'. which in reality is not.
   
  EDIT--added comma.


----------



## tonsofquestions

So ... what's happening to all the V1 models that are getting returned?
  I'd totally be interested in buying one - but at a significantly discounted price.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote: 





parrots said:


> By the way you gonna replace both my half cables with full ones lol


 

 If I were Lee I would serve you up a box of Massengil on a 99.999% pure silver platter.


----------



## jude

Parrots, I've read what's going on, and it seems to me that they're addressing this reasonably.
   
  Now stop cross-posting in the main forums.  And let these vendors rectify the situation.  I understand your frustration, but now it's time to let them make this right, which they seem to me to be aiming to do.
   
  And, frankly, this back and forth between you and Lee is going nowhere.


----------



## DaBomb77766

Parrots, please, give this a rest.  You're clearly in the wrong here, from what I can see.  I've read every post in this thread, and honestly, if I didn't know better, you do have a hidden agenda.  You are ignoring the fact that CryoParts and Whiplash are doing everything in their power to rectify the situation.  They couldn't possibly do more short of giving everyone in this thread a free cable, which would be ridiculous.  What is it you want?  You've beaten this to death already.  They made a mistake.  They admitted their mistake.  They're trusting that your test was accurate, and that the facility you sent it to is legitimate.  What more do you want?  Do you want them to shut their doors and stop producing cables entirely?


----------



## Kunlun

Quote: 





dabomb77766 said:


> Parrots, please, give this a rest.  You're clearly in the wrong here, from what I can see.  I've read every post in this thread, and honestly, if I didn't know better, you do have a hidden agenda.  You are ignoring the fact that CryoParts and Whiplash are doing everything in their power to rectify the situation.  They couldn't possibly do more short of giving everyone in this thread a free cable, which would be ridiculous.  What is it you want?  You've beaten this to death already.  They made a mistake.  They admitted their mistake.  They're trusting that your test was accurate, and that the facility you sent it to is legitimate.  What more do you want?  Do you want them to shut their doors and stop producing cables entirely?


 
  How could Parrots possibly be in the wrong for exposing the fact that Cryoparts and Whiplash were selling copper alloyed silver as pure silver?
   
  The sole reason that Cryoparts and whiplash have admitted to making a mistake at all is that Parrots caught them out and proved what they had done.
   
  Please explain.


----------



## DaBomb77766

I admit that Parrots may have had noble intentions at first - but all that had to be done was do the tests, then show them to people.  The personal attacks on the people running the company were uncalled for.  They said that they did not know the cables weren't pure, because they simply did not test every batch.  This is because they trusted their supplier, who clearly didn't deserve such trust.
   
  I simply doubt that they were purposely selling cables that aren't pure.  But you seem to claim that they did in fact know.  I guess this is where our views differ.


----------



## SACD-Man

Quote: 





kunlun said:


> How could Parrots possibly be in the wrong for exposing the fact that Cryoparts and Whiplash were selling copper alloyed silver as pure silver?
> 
> The sole reason that Cryoparts and whiplash have admitted to making a mistake at all is that Parrots caught them out and proved what they had done.
> 
> Please explain.


 


  Everyone...
   
  I'm not admitting to anything since I buy the wire and make cables. So there is no agenda on my side at all. 
   
  All I can do is help in this matter. I cant say that enough...
   
  Craig


----------



## b0ck3n

I'm not claiming to know what's going on here, but from my point of view, selling _cables_ and advertising them as having an effect on sound reproduction is fraud in itself. I wasn't at all surprised to hear that cables advertised as 99,9998% pure silver was in fact not. No one can be sure that Lee or Craig knew before-hand that they were selling wire with a high copper content, but it's very easy to be noble and honest when you've just been found out.
   
  Regardless, people who've had their wallets raped to get the wire in question have a right to know.


----------



## JayDee

Full disclosure:

 1.) I am a member of the trade (I own www.sonicweld.com)
 2.) Lee Weiland has been a very close personal friend, business advisor, and confidant of mine for nearly twenty years
 3.) Lee promotes and sells Sonicweld products

 I have been following this thread with a growing sense of frustration.  I had not intended to contribute to it, but was provoked to do so by inflammatory statements like these from Parrots:

 “I belive he knew exactly what this wire was made of and did not want anyone testing it and it becoming public...”

 “I belive every single V1 cable out there is not pure silver and this was known by Lee at cryo parts before he offered it for sale...”

 “I belive this is because he knows what those results would show which is why he never had them tested”

 It is one thing to express one’s opinion, good or bad, of a product or a business; ostensibly, such exchange of ideas is what forums like Head-Fi are for.  I respect the right of anyone here to express such opinions.  To me, it is quite another matter to posit such unfounded, hurtful conjectures about someone’s business practices, motives, and character - words which are indelibly and publicly recorded, and which are able to prick afresh new minds and visitors for years to come, should they stand unchallenged.  I find these statements particularly offensive because they suggest a callous, calculating deceptiveness which I know to be diametrically opposed to Lee’s personality, ethics, and business practices.

 I fully realize, given my disclosures above, that some of you may dismiss my defending of Lee as predictable, self-serving, and disingenuous.  Be that as it may, but I think I’m about as well qualified as anyone on the planet to comment on Lee’s nature.  I have never known Lee to engage in deliberate deception or to treat a customer unfairly; to the contrary, he has long been an example to me of professionalism and fair-mindedness.  I’ve seen him bend over backwards for his customers on occasions too numerous to recall, often taking a financial loss in the process.  I have high standards for those who represent my products, and if I ever felt that Lee was engaged in deceptive or dishonest business practices he wouldn’t be selling them, our long friendship notwithstanding.  I haven’t had the pleasure of knowing Craig at Whiplash Audio for nearly as long as I have Lee, but he also sells my products, and I have no reason to believe that Craig is a person of any less integrity than Lee.

 I’d like to close with some observations about some of the key issues in this thread.   Any manufacturer in this industry necessarily relies on suppliers (often hundreds of them) for parts and materials.  No one grows their own silicon ingots, and no one refines their own silver ore.  As raw materials acquire more value by progressing through the transforming processes of the supply and manufacturing chain, there is an implicit trust between vendors that makes the whole mechanism work.  Sometimes that trust is augmented by formal standards-based certifications like ISO9000 and the like, but ultimately each order placed is still a leap of faith for any manufacturer.  Provided that proper diligence has been done in qualifying a supplier, it is the exception to suffer a delivery of sub-par or misrepresented goods, but it does happen on occasion, and this sort of thing could have happened to any manufacturer.  It has certainly happened to me many times; I’ve just been through the maddening experience of receiving three sequential bad batches of very expensive circuit boards from a trusted vendor I’ve done business with for more than a decade.  Whether or not such incidents constitute duplicity on the part of the supplier, debacles like this represent many thousands of dollars of losses that simply have to absorbed as a cost of doing business.  No reputable manufacturer wants to allow bad parts or materials into their product because they create big headaches, frustrated customers, and financial losses.  When that does happen unintentionally, the difference between a good and bad business is how such problems are handled.  Craig and Lee are offering to replace the product in question courteously and promptly, and at their expense.  What’s more, Lee has shown a level of transparency and accountability about his wire that is unprecedented in my experience; I’ve never seen another wire manufacturer disclose independent material assay results.  It is difficult to imagine that more could be reasonably expected of Lee and Craig, yet a witch hunt sort of atmosphere persists in this thread.

 I realize that business practices in today’s world of seemingly endless frauds and scandals invite a certain degree of deserved cynicism (mostly on the part of large corporations), but I find it disheartening that many forum philosophers or self-styled experts are so quick to assume that by default, small high-end audio manufacturers are collectively unscrupulous, willing and anxious to scam their customers at any opportunity, laughing all the way to the bank as they pocket their “hundreds of thousands” of ill-gotten profits.   Yes, I can affirm from my own sad experience that there are a few bad eggs in this business, but I would aver that the majority of the people in our audio world are very hard-working, honest, and chose to operate in this sphere because they love the industry, the avocation it serves, and the satisfaction of sharing musical joy with their customers.  Lee and Craig are great examples of the latter type, and I stand by them and their reputations publicly.

 Josh Heiner
 Sonicweld


----------



## 563

Parrots- sorry to ask again, but did I understand correctly that you've never been on head-fi.org with another name before?


----------



## 563

Mistakes happen and I think Lee and Craig have acted honorably and done what any reputable dealer would do, and that is to correct the error or anomaly as soon as possible. It's time we give them some credit.   This whole thread has come dangerously closely to libel, and I certainly hope neither Craig nor Lee's business has been harmed by some of the comments made here.


----------



## The Monkey

So does this small batch of cables with purportedly less silver content sound less silvery?


----------



## b0ck3n

Quote: 





the monkey said:


> So does this small batch of cables with purportedly less silver content sound less silvery?


 

   
  Hah, I've asked the same question earlier in this thread..


----------



## tonsofquestions

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *tonsofquestions* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> So ... what's happening to all the V1 models that are getting returned?
> I'd totally be interested in buying one - but at a significantly discounted price.


 


 Just for the record, I was only half joking here. Reselling these TWag V1 cables could be a way to recoup some of the losses on the replacements. Or am I the only one interested in a reduced-content cable for a reduced price?


----------



## qusp

Wow, i had meant to post in here a couple of weeks ago, composed a post and found that the type of post was not exactly what was needed. I started editing it but life got in the way and havent been back to these forums really until yesterday. Just to get it out in the open for those that dont know; I am an oem for Cryoparts and regularly use Lee's products (not exclusively) among others in my every day business. I dont have TWAg, but have the other wires in the catalogue and i think its kinda interesting that nobody else has mentioned, or thought of the fact that this is not the only silver wire that is on Lee's product list. There is also SCSCAg and i have been using this for years personally with to my knowledge no issues for me or my customers. TWCu also doesnt go green, hell even the actual SPC doesnt turn green ime due to the ingenious dielectric compound. TWCu is pretty much the only copper wire with clear flexible jacket that i have used that doesnt in fact, one of the main reasons i like it so much. I bought 3 x 100m rolls that i have been using for 2 years now and they are fine.
   
  Anyway back on point, dont you think it would be kinda strange if deliberately trying to defraud people (which is outrageous BTW, knowing Lee) that one wire specifically would be singled out? Do you really think there is that much money in our little sector here? It would only serve as a point of concern for other much more lucrative sections of Lee's customer base if found out. TWAg is fairly specifically developed for and marketed at the headphone and portable audio sector, other areas do not so much need its virtues and in some circles solid wire is definitely preferred. 
   
  The feeding frenzy that developed here is shameful and unfortunately not out of character for this forum lately. The amount of people that have joined in to throw fuel on the fire that are not involved is telling of the type of members we are getting these days. I do not know what else he was supposed to do, he obviously tested it regularly and then he began to trust the manufacturer after not being given any reason for distrust; this has been found to be folly but that is all it is,
   
  The suggestion that this was a deliberate attempt to defraud is patently ridiculous on many levels, financially for the business and from what i know of the man, personally as well. Lee is good people and the fact you have scared him away from participating is a shame. He has sold off all his headphone gear pretty much and the chances of him developing another wire, or product specifically for our market is now slim to say the least I would think (sorry if i'm putting words in your mouth here mate). 
   
  When it was brought up by more than a passing email from an anonymous someone with an ebay test and motives that were unclear, he took all reasonable steps to get to the heart of the matter and now rectify it. surely that is all that could be expected of the man? to me as JayDee said, i have never seen anyone in the wire business give away this sort of information and you can bet there has been others with more controversial findings than this, a certain garden hose comes to mind.
   
  Having spoken to Lee about this, i can assure you he has been taking it very seriously; as he should be; It is definitely an area for concern. 
   
  again, i am a Cryoparts oem, not TWAg however, so posting in here does not serve to defend my interests, quite the contrary and it will be my first and last post in this thread.
   
   
  Very well put JayDee!!


----------



## guitarplayer

Nope, I am completely OK with you posting the results.  I merely contacted them to verify that the test was performed by them, and by the chemists listed.  Nowhere in the letter does is state that I am asking for the results to be removed.  
   
  Once again, you put words into my mouth. 
   
  Here is a copy of the email I sent them:
   

   

  
  Quote: 





parrots said:


> Guess what, I've just had a phonecall from the Assay office and Lee has been in contact with them asking if I am allowed to post the results for all to see and is attempting to have these results taking off so that people cannot see them.
> It's all well and good for him to post his results when they are positive.


----------



## jude

Quote: 





parrots said:


> It might have been just a test bought off of eBay but that test has now been proved to be accurate.


 

 The assay company has requested the removal of the document photos.
   
  Now, seriously, Parrots, enough.


----------



## The Monkey

I'm curious about the basis upon which the lab argued it had the right to demand a takedown?


----------



## jude

I just noticed that a post that Parrots made, that was edited to remove a photo, ended up looking like I made the post, after I submitted the edit.  I have no idea why that happened (seems to be a glitch), and I've removed that post (that appeared to be from me).


----------



## qusp

yeah you had me scratching my head briefly there Jude


----------



## FuzzyDunlop

I don't see why its Parrots who is taking all the flak here. He's clearly in the right. I'd be pissed as well if I was sold a cable that was (sold as being) pure silver when it fact it was 87% Nothing libellous there its a fact Lee/TWAG sold cables that weren't as stated whilst maybe not there fault is clearly fraudulent and I'd be in touch with trading standards
   
  And as for Lee mailing the Assay company on the pretence of Trademark and clearly believing that Parrots had faked the results, pretty shameful imo


----------



## b0ck3n

Yup, it's a load of bull. Parrots is being treated for what he is, a big pain in the butt, but he's also a loyal customer who's been ripped off and now the real heart of the matter is being swept under the rug. The physical evidence that proves Parrots was right is removed, and if anyone's come out of this looking like a fool it's him. This isn't fair.


----------



## Kunlun

Quote: 





fuzzydunlop said:


> I don't see why its Parrots who is taking all the flak here. He's clearly in the right. I'd be pissed as well if I was sold a cable that was (sold as being) pure silver when it fact it was 87% Nothing libellous there its a fact Lee/TWAG sold cables that weren't as stated whilst maybe not there fault is clearly fraudulent and I'd be in touch with trading standards
> 
> And as for Lee mailing the Assay company on the pretence of Trademark and clearly believing that Parrots had faked the results, pretty shameful imo


 

 X2


----------



## grawk

It's not what he said, but how, and how often, he said it.  
  Quote: 





kunlun said:


> X2


----------



## FuzzyDunlop

Quote: 





grawk said:


> It's not what he said, but how, and how often, he said it.


 

 I'd say Lee has behaved equally as bad. If ever a thread summed up the cliquenes of the Head Fi'er community this is it
   
  I mean how dare Parrots question the deity that is TWAG and the super 99.999999% V1 silver cable. As I see it he's been palmed off at every turn


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





fuzzydunlop said:


> I don't see why its Parrots who is taking all the flak here. He's clearly in the right. I'd be pissed as well if I was sold a cable that was (sold as being) pure silver when it fact it was 87% Nothing libellous there its a fact Lee/TWAG sold cables that weren't as stated whilst maybe not there fault is clearly fraudulent and I'd be in touch with trading standards
> 
> And as for Lee mailing the Assay company on the pretence of Trademark and clearly believing that Parrots had faked the results, pretty shameful imo


 

 From a moderation point of view, the only criticism of him was that he cross-posted the same thing in multiple threads. We don't like cross-posting, regardless of the reason.  
   
  If he is taking flak, it is the way he was responding to people, insisting what he believes about Lee's honesty, regardless of what the truth is.  I don't think anyone, even Lee, has issue with the results of the test, if they are confirmed independantly.  If anyone should be copping flak, it is the company that made the wire for him.  
   
  Quote: 





b0ck3n said:


> Yup, it's a load of bull. Parrots is being treated for what he is, a big pain in the butt, but he's also a loyal customer who's been ripped off and now the real heart of the matter is being swept under the rug. The physical evidence that proves Parrots was right is removed, and if anyone's come out of this looking like a fool it's him. This isn't fair.


 

 This thread is still here, isn't it?
   
  I'd say, if you find something you believe is seriously wrong with a company's product, the best thing to do would be to contact them and confirm it first, allowing them to make things right from then.  If, after that, you feel they are not doing the right thing by their customers, I could well understand bringing it up publicly in a forum such as this.


----------



## Lenni

have you tried contacting the CIA? they're probably the best place for taking these tests. just to make sure that the tests are 100% accurate, you know...
  Quote: 





parrots said:


> I have been in touch with the Assay office and spoke to the Head of department at of the Lab he asked that I email one of his assistants and who will forward the email to him, he will then sign it to say that I can post the assay report and has asked me to wait for that so that I have written proof that I can post the report so once I get that I will contact Jude and ask that the reports are put back up.


----------



## Kunlun

Lee's behavior of having the Assay office have Jude take down information showing that Lee was selling head-fi'ers copper/silver cable as pure silver seems like something the moderators and administrators should be talking to Lee very seriously about. Maybe they have already, but this whole thing is something that threatens the relationship between head-fi, head-fi'ers and the hi-fi companies/head-fi sponsors who make the hobby possible.


----------



## grawk

What we have is confirmation that in the past, some cables that were supposed to be solid silver turned out to be heavy plate silver over copper.  Prior to the issue having blown up, they'd already changed to a different cable, which has been tested to be solid silver (if not quite 99.999% silver).  So it seems like the main issue was already resolved before this became a problem.  Anyone who feels like they should get a replacement cable should contact whiplash, as they've said repeatedly.  I'm not sure what head-fi can do at this point, as we're not party to the deals.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





kunlun said:


> Lee's behavior of having the Assay office have Jude take down information showing that Lee was selling head-fi'ers copper/silver cable as pure silver seems like something the moderators and administrators should be talking to Lee very seriously about.


 
   
  Excuse me?
   
  When did Lee ever have the assay office have Jude take down the photos of the assay report?
   
  All Lee did was ask the assay office if the report that was posted here was legitimate.
   
  se


----------



## Yoga Flame

I'm a cable skeptic and this whole turning green business made me think of Uncle Erik's proposed "brined in seawater" experiment. But even so, it seems to me that Lee and Craig have handled themselves reasonably well in response to what has happened. The main mistake that was made was in getting screwed by their supplier.
   
  As for the incident of the assay report being taken down, it appears that no one is really at fault except for maybe the assay company not realizing what fair use means. Lee was within his rights to want confirmation on Parrots' claim. Just as Parrots was within his rights to want confirmation on Lee's claim.


----------



## FuzzyDunlop

Lee and Craig (and Jude) have not handled this well at all, they admonished and belittled Parrots at every turn - Now it's out in the wild that they sold cables that were 87% silver their reputation is crud 
   
  How can you say its the fault of their supplier? Lee/Craig are the end supplier it is them who "supposedly" designed the super sounding cables
   
  And as for the Assay company asking to take the report down, they never asked for it to be, nor did anyone ever email Head Fi - So you have to ask Jude why he is claiming they did, because it never happened, period
   
  I'll probably be banned for this (and this post deleted) but Jude has deleted the proof that the twag cable is snake oil on the pretence that the Assay company mailed him (they never did). He has also sent me private messages threatening to ban me if I try to post the assay picture (which they are happy for me  or Parrots to do, seeing as no one has never emailed Head Fi to take it down)
   
  Quote: 





yoga flame said:


> I'm a cable skeptic and this whole turning green business made me think of Uncle Erik's proposed "brined in seawater" experiment. But even so, it seems to me that Lee and Craig have handled themselves reasonably well in response to what has happened. The main mistake that was made was in getting screwed by their supplier.
> 
> As for the incident of the assay report being taken down, it appears that no one is really at fault except for maybe the assay company not realizing what fair use means. Lee was within his rights to want confirmation on Parrots' claim. Just as Parrots was within his rights to want confirmation on Lee's claim.


----------



## FuzzyDunlop

Totally agree, Jude sent me threatening PM's about calling out Lee/TWAG
   
  I pointed this out to him that forum is based on trust and truth, then he sent me back abuse. So go figure, it's Sponsor Fi from know on
  Quote: 





kunlun said:


> Lee's behavior of having the Assay office have Jude take down information showing that Lee was selling head-fi'ers copper/silver cable as pure silver seems like something the moderators and administrators should be talking to Lee very seriously about. Maybe they have already, but this whole thing is something that threatens the relationship between head-fi, head-fi'ers and the hi-fi companies/head-fi sponsors who make the hobby possible.


----------



## b0ck3n

The v1 is still up for sale. Furthermore, since they didn't take action when the first cables started turning green we're left no choice but to assume that they were hoping no-one would wise up. 

The way the sponsors are being shielded around here is disturbing. I don't see why moderators are making excuses for Lee and Craig, it's one thing to make sure discussion stays clean and civil, but another thing entirely to speak of Craig's and Lee's character to try and sway opinions in their favour.


----------



## FuzzyDunlop

I'd heard stories about the Head Fi "clique" but never realised how much it was in full effect until I joined here. It certainly puts some of the reviews/videos in perspective
   
  87% solid silver 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
  Quote: 





b0ck3n said:


> The v1 is still up for sale. Furthermore, since they didn't take action when the first cables started turning green we're left no choice but to assume that they were hoping no-one would wise up.
> 
> The way the sponsors are being shielded around here is disturbing. I don't see why moderators are making excuses for Lee and Craig, it's one thing to make sure discussion stays clean and civil, but another thing entirely to speak of Craig's and Lee's character to try and sway opinions in their favour.


----------



## debitsohn

i wonder what would happen if all cable maker's cables were tested vs their claims......


----------



## Lenni

omg, you're still going on about it. havent you had fun enough already doing the diy tests and playing detective? about time you go back playing with the action dolls, and stop pestering a good business with this c***.
   
   
  Cryoparts DO NOT deserve this nuisance.
   
   
  can some mods please lock this thread, and preferably ban some of these trolls? pretty please.


----------



## monoethylene

Quote: 





lenni said:


> can some mods please lock this thread, and preferably ban some of these trolls? pretty please.


 

 Why should they do this?? Do you have any personal disadvantages?


----------



## jude

Quote: 





fuzzydunlop said:


> Lee and Craig (and Jude) have not handled this well at all, they admonished and belittled Parrots at every turn - Now it's out in the wild that they sold cables that were 87% silver their reputation is crud
> 
> How can you say its the fault of their supplier? Lee/Craig are the end supplier it is them who "supposedly" designed the super sounding cables
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yes, per your last paragraph, you are correct--you've been banned.  _I've_ harassed _you_?  You've called me a liar, via PM, and now publicly.
   
  Acting in the role of self-described "freelance journalist," you demanded that I publicly post emails that were sent to me, you claiming to be in communication with the assay company, and insisting to me that they're okay with the posting of the report, despite what appear to me to be emails directly from that company to the contrary.  (You additionally accused me of lying about having received those emails--again, via PM's, and now via public posting.)  I asked you to ask them (again, since you have been telling me you've been in communication with them as "a freelance journalist") to email me directly to tell me that the emails that were sent to me previously were done in err and/or that they've changed their position on the matter.  What you wanted was for me to take their word (and their apparently changed position_) __as it was being asserted by you_.  Again, using your powers of investigative freelance journalism, you claimed to be in contact with them, so have them email me directly to tell me--to state in absolutely no uncertain terms--that the position you assert is now theirs is indeed theirs.
   
  Following is one of the two emails I received from the assay office.  Also included is a screenshot of the full header information.  Some things have been blurred.
   
   

   

   
   
  As for the assertions that I've seen repeated that Lee from CryoParts requested that the report be taken down:  That does not appear to me to be accurate.  From what I've seen in this thread, it seems to me that what Lee did was contact the assay office to verify that the report was indeed from them.  Sometime after that, I received two emails that appear to me to be from that office (one of them below) that seem to me to be a firm request for the removal of it.  From what I can tell, that request is from the office, not from Lee.  Lee has also posted in this thread stating as much (that he contacted them only to confirm that the report was from them).  Also, in neither of the emails did it seem to me that the company indicated or hinted that they were requesting this under threat or pressure from anyone else.
   
  Quote: 





b0ck3n said:


> The v1 is still up for sale. Furthermore, since they didn't take action when the first cables started turning green we're left no choice but to assume that they were hoping no-one would wise up.
> 
> The way the sponsors are being shielded around here is disturbing. I don't see why moderators are making excuses for Lee and Craig, it's one thing to make sure discussion stays clean and civil, but another thing entirely to speak of Craig's and Lee's character to try and sway opinions in their favour.


 
   
  As for the v1 still being for sale:  I can't speak for Whiplash, but anyone can confirm with them if what's showing as v1 for sale is any different than the cables in question.  I'd guess so, but anyone here can contact them to confirm that.
   
  As for Whiplash being shielded:  Are you reading the same thread I am?  To the best of my understanding, CryoParts has not been a sponsor of Head-Fi for quite some time.  Whiplash _is_ a sponsor, and, frankly, I'd be very surprised if they felt protected at all.


----------



## Caphead78

I think it is worth leaving the thread open so that the truth is made public and, very importantly, that Lee and Craig have a forum in which to answer the claims and make things right. It is an issue that is important to many here at Head-Fi and there should be a public discussion about it so we stay informed.
   
  That being said some of the personal attacks have been appalling and I do hope that is taken care of any way necessary, including banning guilty parties if necessary.
   
  Quote: 





lenni said:


> can some mods please lock this thread, and preferably ban some of these trolls? pretty please.


----------



## SACD-Man

Protected from what? My business is in a serious crisis mode financially all because I buy a wire from a highly regarded wire manufacture and there might be an issue from a wire that was sold YEARS/MONTHS ago which people LOVE the sound. I have offered to replace the wire.......
  Let me make myself clear. I DO NOT EVEN HAVE TWag v1 wire anywhere in stock. Why is someone saying I'm selling v1? That is untrue and completely an attack since its IMPOSSIBLE  ---- PERIOD. All I have are scraps. 
   
   
  I make cables. I also buy parts and materials from hundreds of manufactures. This is how it works....just so its clear.
   
  I buy and use parts including v1 wire and about 10 - 50 other parts all from various manufactures to make one cable. So I'm not sure what exactly I'm doing wrong. I have only seen in my hands a few cables turning green. Since then well after v1 was --> OUT OF PRODUCTION <--- we starting to look into what the problem was since there were complaints coming in about green wire. 
   
  In my mind, its simple. The rest is contained in this thread. 
  Sorry if my role in all of this as been mistaken and why I'm used in every post. I buy wire. This is how business works. 
   
  In the big picture, many customers have really enjoyed my products. It will be a shame if this stops all because I BUY MATERIALS THAT MAY NOT BE FULLY PURE years ago. I have told everyone what I will do and I think that is clear. 
  I'm a very small business owner. These issues greatly affect everything I do. I cant enough tell everyone that I will do everything in my power to help with this situation. 
   
  I really hope I can continue with TWag v2 and make great products that people can enjoy listening too. If all of you feel its necessary to alter that, then so be it. 
   
  Oh BTW, if Lee from CryoParts and I were trying to deceive people, why would we go to such great lengths to work with this issue?
   
  Craig

     [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium]  [/size]


----------



## SACD-Man

Not sure what my posts link to my site. Sorry for that........not done on purpose.


----------



## Yoga Flame

Quote: 





sacd-man said:


> Not sure what my posts link to my site. Sorry for that........not done on purpose.


 

 It's a forum bug.
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/554157/unclosed-hyperlink-tag


----------



## qusp

Glad i wasnt the only one appalled last night, but i was so angry i thought it better not to post until i could be more rational about it. either some of you guys just read the spammer highlite reel, digested and put into words you can more readily understand, or have actual crippling literary comprehension problems; which is it? those are the only 2 explanations that do not involve trolling, but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt
   
  it is the consumers right to know the test results, it is the consumers right to be reimbursed for any issues if any warranties/claims were violated. neither of these rights have been denied and i dont think that i have seen a single actual v1 owner in here for some time, only the 'head-fi consumer champions' aside from the obvious one anyway. i think if you asked any of the people that are actually effected by this, they would probably be pretty satisfied with the result, given some will have year old cables made new again with the latest version and what i consider to be pretty open and honorable actions taken to solve the problem publicly 
   
  it is not, however a right of the casual observer to defame and make baseless public claims of mis-proprietary


----------



## SACD-Man

Quote: 





yoga flame said:


> It's a forum bug.
> http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/554157/unclosed-hyperlink-tag


 


  Thanks for the info. Rather annoying.


----------



## CARRION FEAST

I don't really perceive an audible difference using different cables, but until I learn to DIY my own cables I'm happy to pay for someone else to make them. From personal experience, Craig at Whiplash makes _handmade_ custom cables for, IMO a reasonable price. I found Craig very contactable & easy to deal with, so - even though I'm more than aware that truth is supreme - I think it was a little ill considered that his business was named in this threads title when I'm certain any concerns could have been resolved with an Email or phone call. There's a mile of difference between someone selling Snake oil & someone selling skill and craft. I can understand being annoyed because a product isn't up to scratch - but surely it's good manners to give the seller first response? None of my business really, but it's angering to see someones reputation diminished by a few key strokes (inadvertently or not).


----------



## hotsport

Quote:


> As for Whiplash being shielded:  Are you reading the same thread I am?  To the best of my understanding, CryoParts has not been a sponsor of Head-Fi for quite some time.  Whiplash _is_ a sponsor, and, frankly, I'd be very surprised if they felt protected at all.


 

 From my point of view it is this kind of post
  
  Quote: 





jude said:


> The assay company has requested the removal of the document photos.
> 
> Now, seriously, Parrots, enough.


 
   
  Even you didn't intentionally want to stop everyone from discussing the issue. But this kind of post has a indirect effect making other member feel reluctant to post and discuss the issue.
   
  Just saying


----------



## qusp

what?? he has been alowed to make probably in the realms of 100 posts or more already without this type of post, you do know this right? if posts were wanted to be censored, they would simply be deleted or the thread locked. the fact that Jude and several mods have posted in here and still the thread is open should be an indication that they are letting it play out


----------



## hotsport

Yes, I know that. 
  But having mod join the discussion and say thing like that still creep me out ,esp. when the conversation is getting hot.
  I just stated my opinion not fact


----------



## b0ck3n

I just want to point out that no-one is taking cracks at Lee's or Craig's person. FWIW I think they are taking the right steps in rectifying the situation now.

@Jude: I'm not talking about censorship or anything of the like, just comments that beg for leniency towards Whiplash and CryoParts aswell as condencending remarks towards Parrots. 

And to anyone who thinks this only concerns owners of TWags I ask, what's the point of keeping the forum going?


----------



## jp11801

re read this thread plenty of people have taken shots at Lee and Craig as people calling them several names and also by inference (by you)
   
  I'm basically out $300 for the cables that Craig made for me as I do not use them and now can't sell them but I do not think that either Lee or Craig intentionally misled me. I would however like to see a replacement program for the V1 cable even for those that are not discolored.
   
   
  You have an adgenda and an axe to grind with cables, do not grind that axe here.


----------



## Noneya

I've been following this thread  for a while now, as I have an Eclipse OM TWag v2 cable on pre-order.
   
  I don't mean to impugn anyone's character, and I know that Lee has offered to switch out any  v1 silver cables containing copper. But I was wondering: has it been explained just how the copper wound up in the v1 cables in the first place? If an explanation has been given, and I've missed it, could someone direct me to it? 
   
  A couple of weeks ago, I contacted Whiplash Audio and was told that there was no ETA on the Eclipse cables. After this, in addition to reading here about what's going on with this v1 situation, I have to decide soon whether or not to cancel my pre-order.


----------



## uelover

@Noneya: No need to get panicked. Twag V2 is silver and Craig will certainly deliver the Eclipse cable. Give him some time to perfect the good cable for you =)
   
  Craig is a victim of this Twag V1 problem himself.


----------



## Carlosfandango

Trying not to infame here:

Where has Craig explicitly stated he will replace ANY v1 cable for shiny new v2 cable?

Where is The statement from Craig/Lee accepting (via their own test results) that v1 is NOT 99.9*% Ag?

Also, what are the prerequisites (invoice, proof of purchase etc) 

Is Craig covering postage costs for return v1?

I feel this should almost fall into a 'product recall' and hence be totally transparent to all v1 owners. 

Thanks.


----------



## David Pritchard

Questions for Parrots- How much did the metal analysis cost performed by the certified lab? How long did it take to get the results back?
  Questions for Whiplash Audio- Why is there nothing on your website stating that some cables are not as advertised and what steps the owner's of the V1's can take to correct the problem? How many different spools of V1 wire was sent to you? Do you know when Lee stopped testing wire for correct purity? Did you know that the wire was made in China?
  Questions for Lee at Cryo-Parts- When did you stop testing the purity of the wire and how much wire has been sent to Craig since then? Are the test results of the V1 wire back?
  David Pritchard


----------



## guitarplayer

No idea yet how.why the copper (and in what amounts) ended up in the cable.  Anything I post would be conjecture at this point.
   
  Hopefully, this is something that will be explained to me by my vendor someday...
   
  Lee
  
  Quote: 





noneya said:


> But I was wondering: has it been explained just how the copper wound up in the v1 cables in the first place? If an explanation has been given, and I've missed it, could someone direct me to it?


----------



## guitarplayer

No statement to that effect yet.  I am awaiting the results of my final tests.
   
  Other questions in your post can be answered by Craig.
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee
  
  Quote: 





> Where is The statement from Craig/Lee accepting (via their own test results) that v1 is NOT 99.9*% Ag?


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote: 





parrots said:


> As Lee said earlier in the thread it will be interesting to compare my results to his and I have to agree with that so looking forward to seeing them, it has been awhile now since they said it is being tested and surely it can't take this long.


 


  I have one set of tests back that shows a significantly higher percentage of silver than your test does.  So, due to this disparity, I have sent samples to a second lab so that the three results can be compared.  Hopefully will be here by the end of the week.
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote: 





david pritchard said:


> Questions for Lee at Cryo-Parts- When did you stop testing the purity of the wire and how much wire has been sent to Craig since then? Are the test results of the V1 wire back?
> David Pritchard


 
   
  After they had made many sample runs for me, and a few runs of wire.  All were OK.  Not sure how much v1 wire was sent to Craig, probably not as much as everyone thinks though.  There has been a LOT more v2 sent to Craig than v1.
   
  Test results from one lab are back on v1, however, there is disparity between the results I have and the ones parrots posted, the ICP-OES assay I have in hand is quite a bit higher than the assay parrot has.  So, I have sent samples to a third lab to see what their results are.
   
  As soon as I get the test back on the wire I have in now, I will post it, and the other result I received.


----------



## TMoney

[size=medium] I just finally got through reading the entirety of the thread. What an interesting read.[/size]
 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] If "Parrots" lab test are as conclusive as we are lead to believe, I wonder if I'll ever buy another expensive cable again. While there is no real evidence of any intent to defraud, there certainly is ample evidence of negligence/incompetence by the MOTs. While defects and mistakes do happen, here the MOTs in question gave no evidence of any kind of quality control provisions in this thread that would have prevented something like this from happening.[/size]
 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] How can someone make claims about the cables they sell if they don't even bother to test them before they ship them out the door? "Trusting your manufacturer" and passing along the burden of quality control checks to your customers might not be such a winning business model. I can't imagine any business surviving long without taking the time and effort to verify the basic claims they made about their products. [/size]
 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] While I can understand how dealing with someone like "Parrots" can get annoying, I also find it easy to understand "Parrots" frustration at the way he has been treated. The MOTs communications with him read to me at times as well meaning, but at other times as an attempted brush-off. Whether that was the intent or not is not for me to say, I can only comment on how it reads to a disinterested party.[/size]
 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] I can imagine that things might have worked out quite differently if "Parrots" initial complaints had been taken a little more seriously and if he had been treated with a little more respect throughout the process. A polite apology and an offer to replace his cable or refund his money might have satisfied him. Instead, we end up with an MOT questioning his ability to understand English. Very disappointing.[/size]


----------



## guitarplayer

Um, I will have to go back and read that, as apparently I missed that post.  In any event, it is not true.  Perhaps grawk meant something else.  I do not know grawk, and he has no special insight into my business, or how I do things.  If I had been aware that v1 had a copper content, or had copper plated silver strands, I would have taken steps to see what was going on right away. 
   
  Grawk, can you please clarify?
   
  In any event, I will post the results of both tests once I have them in. 
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee
  
  Quote: 





parrots said:


> grawk posted earlier that he has word that you once got silver plated copper wires insted of pure silver so after the supplier had already once sent you silver plated copper instead of pure silver you still felt you could trust them and felt no need to have the wires tested after the samples and a few runs.
> V1 Higher then the tests i had done when it has silver plated copper wires in it, really.


----------



## TekeRugburn

Wow....I'm MIA for a bit and I come back to this.   I was about to email Craig about the process we have to do to get a cable replaced, but figured it would be easier to just ask her so everyone won't bombard him with the same question via email.
   
  What exactly do we have to provide?  picture of the cable? receipt?  TIA
   
  Also, Craig has always been a delight when purchasing from him.  Somewhere along the line or chain of business; a mistake/error was made.... nothing more and nothing less.  I don't believe anyone had the intent to dupe loyal customers.  my .02.


----------



## guitarplayer

I prefer to wait until I have all the information in front of me. 
   
  I'll post both assays, as soon as I get the second one back.  I want to see if the third one comes closer to the result you received, or closer to the result I received.  It should only be a few days.
   
  Peace,
   
  Lee
  
  Quote: 





parrots said:


> Why not post the results you have got so far, you say you are getting a the 3rd test done on these now so the first 2 cant both be wrong.


----------



## Currawong

Parrots: Re-read what gawk wrote, as you are mis-interpreting what he said. He didn't say anything about anyone being aware about the cable being the wrong metal in the past. I think your desire to be right is clouding your thinking. 

Another thing: The assay office only shows results to two decimal places. Does the test they did only guarantee accuracy to this degree or can they do better?


----------



## Currawong

I don't think there is any doubt about the copper. What I believe Lee was saying is that the percentage of silver measured by the lab he sent samples to was different. It doesn't change the basic issue being discussed, of course.


----------



## kevin gilmore

There are a number of ways of determining metals content, and each method has pros and cons.
   
  potentiometric titration is a very fast way of determining silver, copper and a few other metals and limited in accuracy to about 2 decimal places.
   
  ICP-OES  (inductively coupled plasma with an optical detector, typically 1k to 4k element ccd things) is another commonly used technique
  you first have to disolve the metals in an acid and dilute appropriately, but the techinque is ratio based and can give accuracys of about 3 decimal places.
  My lab as a varian instrument that is very nice and very fast.
   
  ICP-MS (same inductively coupled plasma with the ions entering a single quad mass spec detector) is another commonly used technique
  works the same as above, typically gives about 4 decimal places, but with care you can get ratios accurate to a few parts per million.
  My lab has a VG instrument now owned by THERMO.
   
  If you have enough sample, fire assay works great, you can get accuracys of about 5 decimal places.
   
  electrospray TOF is another method, have a wonderful agilent unit, accuracy in the 10's of parts per billion.
   
  other techniques are xray bombardment  (yep i can do this one too  ) good to 4 or 5 decimal places.
   
  and scanning electron microscope which among other things is really good for crystal grain structure.
  (i have one of these coming on line soon)
   
  Whether the cable is 3 nines, 4 nines, or 5 nines and whether anyone in the world can hear the difference
  between them is another matter entirely.


----------



## The Monkey

Where's the lab report originally posted by Parrots?


----------



## SACD-Man

Hi everyone. Sorry for being away from this thread for the last few days. I have had some personal stuff to take care of.
   
  Yes I have been replacing v1 when requested. I send the customer my RMA form to fill out and instructions. So please contact me at csanborn@whiplashaudio.com.
   
  I'm working on many things at the moment, so please if I do not get back to you right away don't worry!! 
   
  Craig


----------



## SACD-Man

parrots said:


> sacd-man said:
> 
> 
> > Hi everyone. Sorry for being away from this thread for the last few days. I have had some personal stuff to take care of.
> ...





Yes I working out some details. I have had lots of requests that were not v1 and not TWag cables. 

Craig


----------



## SACD-Man

parrots said:


> sacd-man said:
> 
> 
> > parrots said:
> ...




I'm only going to replace v1. There are customers that are mistaking trying to replace a v2 cable not knowing the difference. Also sending in cables that were not made by me since there are a few copy cats out there. I need to identify the customer and cable. So like I said , there are details I need to figure out. Also I'm getting ready for the Rochester International Jazz Festival. This will keep me busy!! Over 200,000 expected attendees. 

Craig


----------



## Carlosfandango

Quote: 





> I'm only going to replace v1. There are customers that are mistaking trying to replace a v2 cable not knowing the difference. Also sending in cables that were not made by me since there are a few copy cats out there. I need to identify the customer and cable. So like I said , there are details I need to figure out. Also I'm getting ready for the Rochester International Jazz Festival. This will keep me busy!! Over 200,000 expected attendees.
> 
> Craig


 

 This is why (IMO) the return should be treated as a recall.
   
  Strict guidlines, clear instructions for return, etc...
   
  God only knows how you are going to manage all of the second hand cables doing the rounds... These people have been equally mis-sold items.
   
  All the best Craig, I hope this can resolve itself.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote: 





parrots said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I guess I'm just confused why this was an issue in the first place.  Was there any language in any document indicating that you could not post the results?


----------



## SACD-Man

Quote: 





carlosfandango said:


> This is why (IMO) the return should be treated as a recall.
> 
> Strict guidlines, clear instructions for return, etc...
> 
> ...


 
  Agree...
   
  There are many that like the sound and since its burned in, are satisfied with what they have. I'm trying to make the correct procedures, etc. The other part is that the timeframes will be rather long since we already have a waiting list for TWag v2 Eclipse and other cables. So all of this will be announced. 
   
  Craig


----------



## AVU

If Whiplash is going to be forced to do a recall on all these cables, then they are completely within their rights to sue the original cable distribution company (where Cryo-Parts ordered the cable from originally) for the full cost of the replacements in terms of materials, labor, and damage to the reputation of their business.  That could be a LOT of money, easily tens of thousands of dollars.
   
  Quote: 





carlosfandango said:


> This is why (IMO) the return should be treated as a recall.
> 
> Strict guidlines, clear instructions for return, etc...
> 
> ...


----------



## kiwirugby

Hence the value of test/re-test reliability estimates.  Would be better if those were with test sites as well as across.
  
  Quote: 





guitarplayer said:


> After they had made many sample runs for me, and a few runs of wire.  All were OK.  Not sure how much v1 wire was sent to Craig, probably not as much as everyone thinks though.  There has been a LOT more v2 sent to Craig than v1.
> 
> Test results from one lab are back on v1, however, there is disparity between the results I have and the ones parrots posted, the ICP-OES assay I have in hand is quite a bit higher than the assay parrot has.  So, I have sent samples to a third lab to see what their results are.
> 
> As soon as I get the test back on the wire I have in now, I will post it, and the other result I received.


----------



## kiwirugby

How many different samples did they test from the same wire and other samples of the same wire, or was this a test of just one piece of wire?
  
  Quote: 





parrots said:


> As for the test it's shows the acurate results for the wire that was tested and the only way a different result can be gained is if it was a different wire, I really can't see how they can do better, both V1 and V2 were tested and the results of the V2 were nearly identical to the one Cryo Parts posted with only a 0.03% difference I believe but can't exactly remember what his resilts were.
> 
> I've already seen with my own eyes which can also be seen clearly in the pictures I posted what this cable is made of.


----------



## kiwirugby

So how do you know if the test result was right?  Multiple tests that have the same results are more reliable.
   
  In addition, Kevin Gilmore above indicates there are multiple different kinds of tests for cable composition.  Different tests with re-testing would yield much more reliable results.
  
  Quote: 





parrots said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## grawk

Different tests may show difference percentages, but a pure silver cable won't accidentally be 13% copper.  Especially given how much heavier silver is by volume.


----------



## uelover

Quote: 





kiwirugby said:


> So how do you know if the test result was right?  Multiple tests that have the same results are more reliable.


 

 Here is why we are waiting for Cryoparts' results as well - test results from different labs performed by different parties.
   
  You can't really expect Parrots to be spending his time, effort and money doing more and more lab tests while all the other head-fiers just want to free-ride.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote: 





parrots said:


> From cutting up cables and paying for the tests I have already lost $700+ and I certainly don't wish to wast more money carrying out more tests but if you wish to get more done then please go ahead and let us know the results.


 

 No you haven't.  You've lost whatever you paid for the testing.  They already said they would replace or refund your money.


----------



## grawk

Please report any and all abusive PMs, that isn't appropriate conduct here. 

Thanks

People, keep your heads. The issue is known, and being worked on. Don't do things that are againt board terms of service, or that could open you up to lawsuits.


----------



## guitarplayer

OK everyone, as promised, here are the two assay results I received on the Twag v1, one dated 05/25/11 and one 06/03/11.
   
  On the assay dated 06/03/11, the Eclipse and Twag v2 are also listed under the v1 results, as I wanted triple confirmation (and from a different lab I originally used) that Twag v2, is, in fact, what was promised to me.
   

   

   
  As everyone can see, there does seem to be a problem with _*some *_of the Twag v1, as the purity came back on the 05/25/11 assay as 91% pure and 93% pure, while the assay of 06/03/11 came back as 99% pure. So, _*some*_, but not all TWag v1 seems to be not as pure as was promised to me by my vendor.
   
  The assay performed on 05/25/11 was done on a piece that Craig sent me that had exhibited the odd “green striping” issue. As one can see from the image of the assay above, the wire was tested twice via ICPE and the results were 91.149% silver and 93.196% purity respectively. Due to the results not quite lining up with the other assay from the UK that was posted earlier in this thread, I opted to send some of v1 I have left here that had not turned green for a test, so I could try and get a handle on what is going on here; I needed to determine if this is/was a batch issue, or an issue with all of the v1.
   
  The second assay is the one that is dated today, 06/03/11. As one can see, this sample of the v1 is 99% pure. One can see the methodology used as fire assay, or “fire assay with an ICP finish”, as the assayer explained to me.
   
  So, my statement on the matter is this:
   
  It appears, at this point, that_* some, but not all,*_ Twag v1 has a lower purity than I was promised by my vendor. So, _*some, but not all*_, Twag v1 may exhibit the “green striping” issue. If your cable is exhibiting the “green striping” issue, please contact Craig for replacement. But, again, _*not all*_ of v1 appears to have the purity problem, and so therefore should not exhibit the “green striping” issue. So, if your cable looks fine now, it should stay that way for a long time to come, and continue to serve you well long into the future.
   
  I apologize that I let a batch get through that apparently has some problems. This will never happen again, as every new batch of cable I get made, _that I state a purity percentage for_, will have an assay performed on it before it is released to anyone. If I state a purity percentage, I will have the documentation readily available for anyone who wants to see it. Not all my wire will have a stated percentage of purity, but for that wire that does, feel free to ask for a copy of the assay.
   
  From the very start, both Craig and I have stressed that we will take care of anyone who is having a problem with their v1. This is still the case. If your v1 exhibits any “green striping” issues, please contact Craig, and he will work with you to ensure that you are happy.


----------



## Caphead78

Thank you for the data; hopefully the public assay results (both for current and future cable) will help to mitigate the damage your supplier caused. Best of luck to you and Craig.


----------



## The Monkey

Interesting results.  Thanks for posting, and for your continued transparency.  Does the lab give a margin of error?  Is there some sort of industry standard for variance?  Sorry for my ignorance on this subject.


----------



## grawk

So your supplier promised you 99.33, but you sold it as 99.999?


----------



## SACD-Man

Quote: 





guitarplayer said:


> OK everyone, as promised, here are the two assay results I received on the Twag v1, one dated 05/25/11 and one 06/03/11.
> 
> On the assay dated 06/03/11, the Eclipse and Twag v2 are also listed under the v1 results, as I wanted triple confirmation (and from a different lab I originally used) that Twag v2, is, in fact, what was promised to me.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks Lee for Posting this. 
   
  So a quick recap. I will be replacing cables that exhibit any "green" colorization. This will go through a RMA process. Please contact me at csanborn@whiplashaudio.com to obtain the RMA form. 
   
  When emailing me, please have the following information:
   
  -The email address in which the v1 order was placed in.
  -The name that was used
  -What cable(s) is being replaced.
   
  Again I would like to so offer my apologies for the inconvenience that is may have caused. What I'm glad to say is that the new Eclipse is ready to ship and it really came out so beautiful. 
   
  Craig


----------



## 563

Thanks Lee and Craig,
   
  I'm not sure whether you've addressed this already, but don't you think it would be fairest for anyone with the TWAG V1 (and proof of purchase) to be able to swap it out for the V2 - not just those who have the "greening" problem?  The reason why is that no one really knows whether their V1 is the "pure" one or the less than totally pure one, and so those who purchased the V1 should not have to worry in the future if their wire will go green - and indeed, even if it doesn't go green, whether their wire is in fact the 99.99 percent (or whatever) that was advertised?
   
  As I'm a lucky owner of the V2, I realize I don't have a stake in this, but just a thought...


----------



## Carlosfandango

For the purposes of transparency let me state right off the bat that I own a v1 cable this IS NOT green or greening furthermore I bought it second hand (though in unused condition). 

However, I find myself in the situation that no-one and that includes the cable manufacturer or wire supplier can verify with supporting documentation or indeed certainty that this cable is the 99.9*% silver it was sold as. 

My "method" for ascertaining if I did indeed received what I was sold is to wait to see if it starts to go green?

I REALLY do not want to beat up on whiplash, but I find this to be a far from satisfactory situation.


----------



## SACD-Man

Actually I agree with everyone on this. I got lost in the verbiage and I was only trying to refer to the "green" issue.
   
  I will be replacing v1 cables whether they are green or not. 
   
  My previous statement I made about what info I need is true. I have made a few exceptions, however I will be rather strict on following these simple requirements.
   
   
  When emailing me, please have the following information:

   

  -The email address in which the v1 order was placed in.

  -The name that was used

  -What cable(s) is being replaced.

   

  Also, turn around time maybe as long as 4 weeks. I will do my best, however I have a rather large festival that I'm a vendor at and its for 8 days. Its from June 8th - 10th. I will be unavailable for most of that time if not all. 

   

  So I'm sorry about the confusion. 

   

  Craig


----------



## b0ck3n

As the issue is purely cosmetic I think the previous terms stated were fair: green cables are replaced. Fans of the TWag should accept that, doing so will help the vendor stay in business.


----------



## grawk

The issue isn't purely cosmetic.  The cables were sold as being remarkably pure silver.  Not just any old "jewelry grade silver" but 99.999% pure.  Whether you care or not is a different issue, but since that was the big difference with these cables to make them better than everyone else, having them be silver plated copper is a significant malfeasance.  If I'd paid for 99.999% and gotten even 99.3%, I'd be insisting on either what I paid for (99.999% silver) or a refund.  That said, I wouldn't have bought them because they were 99.999% silver, because I don't personally think there's any way that could make a difference, but it certainly was a marketing point both CryoParts and Whiplash touted extensively.


----------



## jp11801

I am disappointed that the cable that was advertised as 99.99+ is less than that. I highly doubt it made/makes a difference but it was touted as that and buyers should have received just that. My cable is not green but since it's market value is pretty much nil I'm going to take one of the adapter cables apart and scrape the strands to see if the core is copper. Once I get past the hot glue covering the solder joints.

There is nothing wrong with silver plated copper some of my favorite cables use this but in the past when I bought SPC I did so knowingly and did not pay a premium for ultra pure silver. 

If none of the tests reveal ultra pure silver when this cable was first tested and found to be ok was it 99.99+ or below that high standard and deemed to be "close enough".


----------



## b0ck3n

I won't argue with you, but I will point out that there are far worse cases of marketing dishonesties in the audio world, perpetrated by this vendor, other vendors, reviewers and consumers. Atleast, this time, it seems they made an honest mistake, or were taken in by their wire supplier.



grawk said:


> The issue isn't purely cosmetic.  The cables were sold as being remarkably pure silver.  Not just any old "jewelry grade silver" but 99.999% pure.  Whether you care or not is a different issue, but since that was the big difference with these cables to make them better than everyone else, having them be silver plated copper is a significant malfeasance.  If I'd paid for 99.999% and gotten even 99.3%, I'd be insisting on either what I paid for (99.999% silver) or a refund.  That said, I wouldn't have bought them because they were 99.999% silver, because I don't personally think there's any way that could make a difference, but it certainly was a marketing point both CryoParts and Whiplash touted extensively.


----------



## Carlosfandango

sacd-man said:


> Actually I agree with everyone on this. I got lost in the verbiage and I was only trying to refer to the "green" issue.
> 
> I will be replacing v1 cables whether they are green or not.
> 
> ...






Thanks for the clarification Craig.


----------



## AVU

It's interesting that some of the silver wire has a higher copper content than other.  I don't own a TWag, but I do own the OM JH13 silver cable, and only one of the two strands turned green.  I've seen a number of other silver cables turn green on only one of the two strands. Maybe the variation in copper content is the reason for this?
   
  Of course, none of this explains why people with copper cables like the TWcu rarely seem to report their cables turning green ???!??


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





avu said:


> It's interesting that some of the silver wire has a higher copper content than other.  I don't own a TWag, but I do own the OM JH13 silver cable, and only one of the two strands turned green.  I've seen a number of other silver cables turn green on only one of the two strands. Maybe the variation in copper content is the reason for this?


 
   
  Nothing sold as solid silver (as opposed to silver plated copper) should be turning green. Period.
   
  se


----------



## caracara08

wow, i hope everything works out for all parties.


----------



## Stevtt

Sounds like the vendor is doing everything the should do to address this issue. Everyone should be happy. If some people still feel as is they didn't get treated fairly by the vendor then don't buy anything else from him. It seems like this is a wound that just keeps getting picked at.  one thing though, everyone has me curioius as to what the difference in sound is between the V1 with the lower concentration of silver and the one with the higher concentration of silver.


----------



## TheAwesomesauceShow

Makes you think twice of getting/upgrading to very expensive cables without knowing if it's the genuine article.  I guess next time, ask for a proof that the wires are indeed pure silver(both vendor and customer) and not rely on what the supplier said to the vendor(in other words, "put it in writing").  So that the vendor did all the testing and everything they claim is true(if not stop buying from that supplier) so something like this won't happen again.  IMHO, I think the one to blame here is the wire supplier not the cable vendor.  Of course we don't know this since we don't know if the vendor knew about this(fault/mistake) or relied on the supplier's word.


----------



## kevin gilmore

here is the current pricing of silver wire from
  alpha-aesar
  a company that consistently delivers exactly what
  they promise.
   
http://www.alfa.com/en/gp140w.pgm


----------



## Carlosfandango

stevtt said:


> everyone has me curioius as to what the difference in sound is between the V1 with the lower concentration of silver and the one with the higher concentration of silver.




-----

Irrelevant. 

You pay for 99.999999%'silver and that is what you should get. 

You could just as easily ask what is the sound difference between silver v copper v chicken wire. 

This entire thread is about the make up (and hence price) of the product on offer, not the workmanship or sound of it.


----------



## Carlosfandango

stevtt said:


> Sounds like the vendor is doing everything the should do to address this issue. Everyone should be happy. r.





Agreed, an error has been found, testing that would have detected this error wasn't being performed and Lee says it will be in the future. This can only be a good thing for both Lee, Craig and ultimately the customers, even considering that the additional costs involved with this testing will be passed down the chain. 

But everyone in the future will end up with a product the quality of which can be verified. 


iPhone post so please excuse the awful English.


----------



## hotsport

Quote: 





grawk said:


> So your supplier promised you 99.33, but you sold it as 99.999?


 


  This is the question that I want an answer.
  Is there any TWag cable that is actually 99.99% silver? I mean even V.2 only gots 99.64% silver
  .


----------



## TekeRugburn

i think craig is doing a wonderful job at righting the wrong. but will we be getting v1 cable replacements or will we be upgraded to v2? jw because it was stated that there wasnt anymore v1 left

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk


----------



## uelover

Quote: 





parrots said:


> There seems to be people now trying to buy used V1 cables with the intention of getting those cables exchanged for the V2 and I have also noticed on the FS forum that people have actually raised the price of the V1 the were previously selling at a cheaper price and stating in the ad that the cable can be exchanged for the V2.
> I don't think this is fair on whiplash audio and can't see why they should have to exchange cables for people when those people bought the V1 already knowing about this issue trying to save themselves a few bucks.
> if you want a V2 then you should have to pay full price for it and exchanges IMHO should only be allowed for those who purchased the cable before all this came out or those who can provide proof of purchase.
> I don't see why whiplash should have to lose out because of people trying to get a cheap deal.


 

 I have seen this coming when Parrots you went around publicizing and 'educating' that Twag V1 cable are not 99.999% silver. Current owners will just demand for a free exchange on the argument that they have no way to determine if their cables are made with high silver content. They will do so *even if they love the sound from their current twag v1*. I wonder how many twag v1 owners had actually believed and bought twag v1 on the ground that it is a 99.999% silver cable and not a 99% one? Not sure about the audible difference between these two either. But then, free upgrade for twag v2. Why not?
   
  Whiplash audio already loses much when it exchanges affected twag v1 cables for free - connector plugs and new sets of wires.
  They have got no more supply of twag v1 cables and are forced to exchange with twag v2 cables.
   
  This is the kind of moral hazard we will always face. People will jump in when they see opportunity to rip someone else off.
   
  Biggest victim of all this is really Whiplash Audio.
   
  I hope that they will be able to recover from this if not, there will be no more cables for the all of us.
   
  Happy ending? I don't think so.
   
  Craig has really got a tough time for the twag v1 cables he received from Cryoparts.


----------



## SolidSnake3

Quote: 





uelover said:


> I have seen this coming when Parrots you went around publicizing and 'educating' that Twag V1 cable are not 99.999% silver. Current owners will just demand for a free exchange on the argument that they have no way to determine if their cables are made with high silver content. They will do so *even if they love the sound from their current twag v1*. I wonder how many twag v1 owners had actually believed and bought twag v1 on the ground that it is a 99.999% silver cable and not a 99% one? Not sure about the audible difference between these two either. But then, free upgrade for twag v2. Why not?
> 
> Whiplash audio already loses much when it exchanges affected twag v1 cables for free - connector plugs and new sets of wires.
> They have got no more supply of twag v1 cables and are forced to exchange with twag v2 cables.
> ...


 

 But couldn't all of this have been avoided if Craig tested the cables before selling them? I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything of the sort however it seems to me that the "biggest victim" is one because they didn't test what was being supplied to them and just put faith in their supplier. 
   
  Also, I'm really interested in Craig has any explanation for the v2 that was not near 99.99999% pure. I understand that once you reach 99% the merit of any difference is questionable at best however charging a premium for something that is supposedly ultra ULTRA pure silver that really isn't seems a bit off to me....


----------



## uelover

Hey Parrots I am just saying that I am anticipating many people to exploit the twag v1 replacement program after you have made such a successful public awareness. I believe that twag v1 owners should be made aware of the problem but I also cannot help but lament at how greedy people can be. I am not pointing finger at you saying its your fault.
   
  Maybe next time Craig will just send everything for extra lab test and thus the production time will be extended and the prices will be even higher to pay for those extra test.


----------



## Stevtt

If anybody is trying to exploit this by telling someone they can by the v1 used then trade it in or raising prices because of this,

Shame on you


----------



## 563

No proof of purchase directly from Whiplash, no exchange, I would say.  While someone's original V1 might be just fine, in the end, this is the best solution, provided they don't "double dip" and keep the original V1 and get a new V2 as well.  That's one way of ensuring against anyone profiting from Craig's woes.
   
  Apropos - There's no question that Craig is the real victim in all this, and I'm not sure it would have been reasonable for him to check every chunk of wire he received, whether or not he advertised his cable as 9.99999 percent or whatever.  For goodness sakes, Craig's doing all he can to make good on this, and, to my way of thinking, this should enhance, rather than harm, his reputation.  Heck, one of the most "reputable" vendors on head-fi pawned off a used HD-800 on me as "new" a while back, and that is a heckuva lot worse than what happened here - even if the V2 is 99.0 percent and not 99.9 percent.   This kind of nitpicking is rather embarassing, and frankly, quite unfair to him.
   
  Which raises another interesting question - already alluded to by others before - and that is whether _any _of the other cable vendors here (or other manufacturers with respect to their high/overpriced products) have verified the content of their cables or the veracity of their claims about their so and so product.  I can't believe - though anything is possible - that _every one_ else has been able to achieve the magic 99.99999 percent or whatever mark they've advertised.   
   
  Please let's cut Craig some slack finally here ....


----------



## uelover

If I am not wrong, Craig merely copy and paste the entire description of Twag from Cryoparts. He didn't write them out himself.


----------



## Currawong

How many retailers test whether the specs of things they sell are actually true or not? Lets be realistic here in that it's not Craig's job to do that. Whatever issues have arisen between Craig and Lee, however, are for them to sort out amongst themselves. I don't think anyone who has returned a faulty or not-as-advertised item to a retailer has asked them about what they will do with regards to the manufacturer that sold it to them.


----------



## warp08

Quote: 





563 said:


> Apropos - There's no question that Craig is the real victim in all this, and I'm not sure it would have been reasonable for him to check every chunk of wire he received, whether or not he advertised his cable as 9.99999 percent or whatever.


 
  Yes, he is.  It wouldn't have been feasible for him to do this kind of involved lab testing on every single pool or even every 10th pool.  People wanted their orders yesterday, I still remember the TWag OM preorder craze...it wasn't a pretty thread.
   
  He advertised the cable based on data what his supplier provided.  The only visual cues for him would have been the wires turning green while on the spool.  Knowing him he would have never shipped them to be overmolded, much less sold it to his customers had he been aware of any potential issues.  This is an honest man, period.  
   
  Not to mention, having to recall any product is far more expensive in any industry than halting production, nobody involved, meant this to happen by design, save perhaps for Cryo-Parts unnamed supplier.  This type of validation, must and will occur from now on at the distributor level, not at the customer-facing dealer-level, according to Lee's own announcement.
   
  To be fair, I've seen several posts in this thread from Parrots echoing similar sentiments towards the role of Whiplash Audio in this situation.


----------



## SACD-Man

Hey guys...
   
  Sorry from being away from this thread. I have been at my Son's baseball game for most of the later part of the day. If anyone is a Little League fan, he won!
   
  Well, its interesting to see how all of this came about. Here are some facts that might help with all of this. What I'm saying has been said before, while some might be new. I don't know. But its for sure that the damages have been already done to what was a great sounding cable that everyone enjoyed and still enjoy. I have received many emails in supporting what Whiplash produces and of course, many very very hateful emails echoing some of the points in this thread. 
   
  I receive wire that I purchased as being "x". This comes in several spools of wire, and usually a rather large amount since you cant buy good wire or most wire in small amount unless you want to pay a fortune. In this case, a certain order size is required. I receive the wire, cut the wire to the proper length, perform whatever is necessary for the wire to be sent to the over molder. This process can take up to 10 days since there are many steps. In this process, many other companies with certain "facts' are involved. If I were to verify every fact, it would take me 10-20x longer for prep and the cost of this verification would have to passed to the final price. So, in the case of v1, I relied on CryoParts to provide me with data. I only copied and paste the information provided to me. CryoParts did the same thing as well. He was provided data form the manufacturer and thats how numbers are generated.
   
  Usually a "batch" of wire can last for about 2-3 months MAX. So testing every single batch which includes several spools of wire, would be costly and time consuming. This understanding can be applied to many other products including connectors, solder, headphones, caps in equipment, etc. 
  Since the cost of buying wire, having employees, renting space and shipping has gone up significantly, my margins have disappeared since I only passed a some portion of the increased cost to the current price. 
   
  My reputation is on the line here since I sell the cable to the end user. I have not slept since this has happened. I can say the same thing for Lee as well. Both of our businesses has suffered permanent irreversible damages and we are working hard to fix what has been done. On my side, offering to replace cables that were made 1-2 + years ago seems to be fair since they will be receiving a cable that cost approximately 30-40% more since my cost have gone up that much. Also they are receiving the newest cable which has cost Lee a small fortune to develop and cost me a small fortune to buy and stay exclusive with. 
   
  Here is how my business works. I need current sales in order to pay employees, wire, parts etc. In order to replace v1 cables, I have to take current stock and use it to replace cables that were made years back. This means I have nothing to sell. In addition, sales have stopped. So the fate of whiplash being responsible or honest is not my biggest issue since I have already proven to THOUSANDS of customers that I back up my product and I care for each and everyone that works with me on placing an order. My biggest problem is being able to continue providing great products and paying the people who provide them; my employees. Also there is rent and other expenses that go into making a product. 
   
  So if you need to put me on a Guillotine, then please go ahead and do it. Since this thread is about how bad I am and others around me, I guess not much can be said more on how people want to treat the folks that try to make better music. All we can do is try. So this is what I'm doing and I have said this MANY MANY times.
   
  I will replace any v1 cable through my RMA process. I need order information first since I have receive cables that were not made by whiplash. 
  So the customer needs to send me the v1 product and I will replace it with v2. Right now I have a VERY limited amount of clear wire for replacement (accept headphone cables). Most of my stock is Eclipse which is the black color version of Twag v2. Turn around times will vary based on volume of orders and replacement cables being made also projects that I'm currently working on. 
   
  If this is not good enough, than I apologize again. It seems people have decided to move on to other options for new cables so the backlash of this has been felt. What other public whipping do folks what to see? In my mind, the damages have already been done. I can't change it. Of course I wish I could. 
   
  Also thanks to those have been trying to support me. I truly appreciate it!!
   
  If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me. I will be unavailable personally from June 10-18th. You can email custserv@whiplashaudio.com if you need assistance. I will be checking my emails during this time, however not on a regular basis. We will be open during this time and photos of the Jazz Festival will be posted. 
   
  Thanks!
  Craig


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## Kodan420

The saddest part of this whole deal is that neither of these companies may recover. As Craig is so honestly pointing out he is basically using his future stock to replace whats wrong and may not have any thing left for continuing to do business. I agree this is a bad situation all around but lots of people might lose their lively hood over audio cables.......


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## grawk

I'd think anyone in Craig or Lee's situation who wasn't supplied with the (incredibly expensive) components they contracted to get would have a fairly strong case for a lawsuit, for triple damages (not just replacement of the originally contracted parts).  If the contract was for what they got, on the other hand, well...I'll leave the rest of the interpretation as a scholarly exercise for the reader.


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## 563

What gets me is how quickly the winds shift around head-fi.  One day, a product is the cat's meow, and the next, the whole world seems to be ganging up against it.  I'm wondering how long it'll be before folks start slamming the JH-3A, or the Stax SR009, or, or ....
   
  So much for the FOTM....


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## caracara08

the damage has been done parrots, you can stop now.   ppl can read the thread and know what happen. you dont have to restate it every page.


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## The Monkey

Usually, I side with the consumer on these types of issues.  Especially where cables and other such goods that lend themselves to specious claims.  But I'm finding it hard to get too worked up on the behalf of those purchasers of the 87%-93% silver cables.  With cables, you're already making a kind of leap of faith aren't you?  I'll answer that.  Yes, you are.  And to those people who have purchased the "not-up-to-spec" cable, what are your real damages?  You certainly can't hear any difference (to claim otherwise strains all boundaries of reason).  It turns green.  So what?  If I were the vendors in this situation (which of course I am not), then I would offer, at most, to refund a percentage of the purchase price that represents the percentage off of 99.whatever% these were supposed to be.  I don't know enough about their businesses to know if that is even a plausible solution.  Maybe replacing is actually easier than having that cash go out the door.  But some "recall" and replacement program seems like a bad solution to a relatively minor problem.


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## TekeRugburn

the monkey said:


> Usually, I side with the consumer on these types of issues.  Especially where cables and other such goods that lend themselves to specious claims.  But I'm finding it hard to get too worked up on the behalf of those purchasers of the 87%-93% silver cables.  With cables, you're already making a kind of leap of faith aren't you?  I'll answer that.  Yes, you are.  And to those people who have purchased the "not-up-to-spec" cable, what are your real damages?  You certainly can't hear any difference (to claim otherwise strains all boundaries of reason).  It turns green.  So what?  If I were the vendors in this situation (which of course I am not), then I would offer, at most, to refund a percentage of the purchase price that represents the percentage off of 99.whatever% these were supposed to be.  I don't know enough about their businesses to know if that is even a plausible solution.  Maybe replacing is actually easier than having that cash go out the door.  But some "recall" and replacement program seems like a bad solution to a relatively minor problem.




well... while i think its just a bad situation in general, replacement would be the only option. lets say you bought a laptop thats supposed to run at 1.6ghz per core. later its revealed that these cpus are only running 1.2ghz. most people wouldnt notice the difference... but if people paid for 1.6ghz, thats what they should get.... noticing the difference between the 2 is irrelevant.... so advertised specs can be innacurate as long as the consumer dont notice it?

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk


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## The Monkey

I think the difference between the advertised specs and the actual measured specs are immaterial here. Further, while the "you should get what you paid for" argument has some validity, it kind of falls apart when it appears that no one did this knowingly (yet). I'd be interested if someone could actually articulate the specific harm they suffered as a result of the "tainted" batch. 


Edit: if I were the vendors, I would also explore the possibility of offering a discount on the next purchase instead of recall/replacement. Would they lose some customers? Maybe. But it would be far less costly and disruptive and I'm sure most HFers would get over it pretty quickly. There are other vendors out there who have done and/or continue to do much worse.


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## grawk

Well, 99.999% silver has a much higher value per weight than 87% silver plated copper, so that's a fairly significant harm.  Beyond that, it's all in the ear of the beholder.  Whether any given customer is satisfied is up to that customer.  I'd think any harm to the various businesses flows up hill until you hit the person who knowingly supplied something other than what was advertised.


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## maverickronin

Quote: 





the monkey said:


> Usually, I side with the consumer on these types of issues.  Especially where cables and other such goods that lend themselves to specious claims.  But I'm finding it hard to get too worked up on the behalf of those purchasers of the 87%-93% silver cables.  With cables, you're already making a kind of leap of faith aren't you?  I'll answer that.  Yes, you are.  And to those people who have purchased the "not-up-to-spec" cable, what are your real damages?  You certainly can't hear any difference (to claim otherwise strains all boundaries of reason).  It turns green.  So what?  If I were the vendors in this situation (which of course I am not), then I would offer, at most, to refund a percentage of the purchase price that represents the percentage off of 99.whatever% these were supposed to be.  I don't know enough about their businesses to know if that is even a plausible solution.  Maybe replacing is actually easier than having that cash go out the door.  But some "recall" and replacement program seems like a bad solution to a relatively minor problem.


 

 It may just be jewelry but you still deserve what you pay for.  Its like buying a diamond ring and discovering its actually CZ.  It still severs the same purpose just as well but its not what you paid for and it doesn't have the resale value it should.


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## TekeRugburn

the monkey said:


> I think the difference between the advertised specs and the actual measured specs are immaterial here. Further, while the "you should get what you paid for" argument has some validity, it kind of falls apart when it appears that no one did this knowingly (yet). I'd be interested if someone could actually articulate the specific harm they suffered as a result of the "tainted" batch.
> 
> 
> Edit: if I were the vendors, I would also explore the possibility of offering a discount on the next purchase instead of recall/replacement. Would they lose some customers? Maybe. But it would be far less costly and disruptive and I'm sure most HFers would get over it pretty quickly. There are other vendors out there who have done and/or continue to do much worse.




the harm would be not getting what you paid for. while i believe no one tried to scam anyone..... replacing the cables is the way to go. so now mistakes or errors shouldnt be corrected as long as the manufacturer didnt do it on purpose?

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk


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## The Monkey

Quote: 





grawk said:


> Well, 99.999% silver has a much higher value per weight than 87% silver plated copper, so that's a fairly significant harm.  Beyond that, it's all in the ear of the beholder.  Whether any given customer is satisfied is up to that customer.  I'd think any harm to the various businesses flows up hill until you hit the person who knowingly supplied something other than what was advertised.


 

 I agree with this assessment.  And you've actually hit on the more important issue, which is that *nothing* so far (to my knowledge) has been shown to be 99.999 or however many decimal places was advertised.  Why are people not more upset about that.  At what point does this become a material issue?  I submit no one has a good answer to that.  My guess is that if other mfrs. cables were tested, they would show similar results. 
   


  Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> It may just be jewelry but you still deserve what you pay for.  Its like buying a diamond ring and discovering its actually CZ.  It still severs the same purpose just as well but its not what you paid for and it doesn't have the resale value it should.


 

 I disagree.  It's like buying a diamond ring and discovering it's only 90% diamond.  Not quite the same.  Or to bring it closer to home, this issue seems more like the HF-2 "Head-F1" error.  That did not result in a recall, iirc, but I forget how Todd and Grado actually handled it.  Anyone remember?
   
  Also, how do you measure the resale value it "should" have?  Regardless, the difference between what it purportedly "should" be worth on a fickle second-hand market and what it actually will fetch now is not 100%.  Someone *will* buy these things.  If you can offer some logical estimate as to what the difference is, it could be an interesting starting point for assessing the actual damages, if any, to original purchasers.  Some are FS already, right?
   


  Quote: 





tekerugburn said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 If replacing the cables will potentially put one or both of these vendors out of business, or even on the brink, then it is not the way to go.  Mistakes and errors should be corrected as much as reasonably possible and commensurate with the actual harm caused by such mistakes and errors, especially when small businesses are involved.
   
  On a more general note, I hope that this situation does something to temper the frothing at the mouth that accompanies some of the products offered in this hobby.  Less group think and a more skeptical approach to purchasing and especially reading reviews would benefit everyone in this community.


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## Carlosfandango

Craig has made his position clear. I have accepted his offer. 

The issue has been resolved so I see no further need (for me) to contribute to the thread.


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## caracara08

yes i agree, the supplier screwed them, but really... before this happened how many ppl really thought the sound wasnt "TWag"?  of course im not sure but i dont think there were ppl complaining about the sound not sounding how it should.  i only have v2 but everyone seemed to love the v1... wonder why that is.
   
  and comparinmg what is happening to getting a CZ instead of a diamond is a bit much...  if i had a v1 and never thought twice about the sound, i wouldnt exchange it.  if it sounds how it suppose ot, and its not green... whats the big deal? youre buying the cable for the sound, or are we? now if it was green, i would exchange it to be fair.
   
  in any case, the damage is irreparable and i fear that whiplash will not survive this.  his niche market is just too small, even tho the sound of his product throughout this has never been questioned, meaning it still sounds great, no one is giving him business.  that is wrong especially the way he is trying to make things right. 
   
  we have to consider this small business here.  for the whole time ive been a member, hes been nothing but the best.  i assume it was always the case as hes praised so highly here.  dont be so fickle and just stop using him because of this. his product sounds good. thats what matters.  i for one, will continue to use him as much as i can and hope his great company can make it out of this alive.
   
  EDIT: AND PLEASE PARROTS AND OTHERS BASHING, DONT RESPOND.  WE KNOW YOUR ARGUMENT ALREADY.


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## 563

I think Craig will survive - I don't know of many (or any?) vendors in this business who would have bent over backward so much and demonstrated as much heart as he has to make good on something that could have happened to anyone else.  This should actually, in the long run, _enhance_ his reputation rather than harm him, and hopefully keep him in business for many moons to come.


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## SolidSnake3

I agree in that I think that the tests showing that none of the cables were even 99.9 much less 99.99999whatever is quite significant. This seems to be indicating that there is more than just a single "tainted" spool of wire in that no cable has show to be what it was claimed. Now the v1 being quite a bit less (high 80%'s) as opposed to the v2 being 99.6% shows that there for sure was something up with that particular cable/spool of wire however the test results still stand regarding the lesser than claimed purity of v2. I wondering, if for non other than my own personal curiosity, whether this point will ever be explained by whiplash/anyone else?
  Quote: 





the monkey said:


> I agree with this assessment.  And you've actually hit on the more important issue, which is that *nothing* so far (to my knowledge) has been shown to be 99.999 or however many decimal places was advertised.  Why are people not more upset about that.  At what point does this become a material issue?  I submit no one has a good answer to that.  My guess is that if other mfrs. cables were tested, they would show similar results.


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## caracara08

Quote: 





563 said:


> I think Craig will survive - I don't know of many (or any?) vendors in this business who would have bent over backward so much and demonstrated as much heart as he has to make good on something that could have happened to anyone else.  This should actually, in the long run, _enhance_ his reputation rather than harm him, and hopefully keep him in business for many moons to come.


 


  i hope this is true.  i would also hope this for any vendor that specializes in our market knowing how small it really is.


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## maverickronin

Quote: 





the monkey said:


> I disagree.  It's like buying a diamond ring and discovering it's only 90% diamond.  Not quite the same.  Or to bring it closer to home, this issue seems more like the HF-2 "Head-F1" error.  That did not result in a recall, iirc, but I forget how Todd and Grado actually handled it.  Anyone remember?
> 
> Also, how do you measure the resale value it "should" have?  Regardless, the difference between what it purportedly "should" be worth on a fickle second-hand market and what it actually will fetch now is not 100%.  Someone *will* buy these things.  If you can offer some logical estimate as to what the difference is, it could be an interesting starting point for assessing the actual damages, if any, to original purchasers.  Some are FS already, right?


 

  
  It doesn't matter how useful or useless it is.  The resale value doesn't even matter that much, although you could determine determine differences by comparing prices before and after.  What matters is that people didn't get what they paid for.  They didn't get what was advertised.  It doesn't matter if its functionally identical (which it isn't, since the copper will turn it green).  It doesn't matter if people were under the impression they were ordering 100% dog crap and ended up with 85% dog crap and 15% cat crap.  They still deserve a refund or a replacement.
   
  They ordered one thing and received another.  That's all there is to it.


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## The Monkey

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> They ordered one thing and received another.  That's all there is to it.


 

 We'll have to agree to disagree.


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## amo973

Did Craig and Lee know of the V1 flaw? thus promoting the V2 as having a wider sound stage....and superior fidelity ect.  I guess Craig and Lee will be the only ones that know the true answer to that.  But fact of the matter, the inquisition led by this forum could destroy them.  Is there a difference in sound between V1 and V2 as suggested by Craig?
   
  What is the right thing for Craig to do, and what is the right thing that I should do as a customer who had previously purchased the V1.  Given that most of the transactions where done by via credit card or paypal, should Craig be contacting *all* V1 customers and offering a replacement.
   
  I have examined my cables and yes if I look closely, there are green specs peppered on the cable.  I do like the sound of my cables, and I did purchase them primarily because i had purchased a RSA protector and bought the twag because the feedback on the forum said that they paired up well - ironic that, the same forum that made them is now breaking them.
   
  If everyone that purchased a V1 cable demands that Craig replace their cable...I am sure that such would have the effect of pushing Craig's business into the red.  
   
  what do other V1 customers intend to do?  I am undecided at the moment...maybe Craig could offer us V1 owners an attractive discount on a V2 purchase, instead of paying postage fees sending back our V1s.  This way, we can still support his business out of turmoil.


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## caracara08

Quote: 





amo973 said:


> If everyone that purchased a V1 cable demands that Craig replace their cable...I am sure that such would have the effect of pushing Craig's business into the red.
> 
> what do other V1 customers intend to do?  I am undecided at the moment...maybe Craig could offer us V1 owners an attractive discount on a V2 purchase, instead of paying postage fees sending back our V1s.  This way, we can still support his business out of turmoil.


 


  i think this is a great idea... but we all know the same ppl are gonna say this is outrage and that they should get everything free.  no regard for a mans company who happened to be the retailer for a product that, still sounds as great as it should, but wasnt up to the right purity.  if it sounds great, i can care less. im not going to melt it down and make a wedding band and see the impurities.


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## jpelg

Assumption: No one in the chain of manufacturing->retail sales knew anything about the impure cable.
   
  Statement: Whiplash should pass all expenses related to the V1 recall/replacement program to Cryo-Parts. Cryo-Parts should, in turn, pass all related expenses to its wire manufacturer. If the final customer is at the top of the heap, stuff should run downhill to the source. Craig should not bear the brunt of this alone.


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## amo973

Quote: 





jpelg said:


> Assumption: No one in the chain of manufacturing->retail sales knew anything about the impure cable.
> 
> Statement: Whiplash should pass all expenses related to the V1 recall/replacement program to Cryo-Parts. Cryo-Parts should, in turn, pass all related expenses to its wire manufacturer. If the final customer is at the top of the heap, stuff should run downhill to the source. Craig should not bear the brunt of this alone.


 
  That's assuming that the wire manufacturer will act honorably, if the company is located in the US, there is hope.  Most likely the wire manufacturing is sourced in China and if such is the case, there is little recourse for Cryo-Parts and Whiplash if the wire manufacturer defaults in such instance.


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## zaimlerx

sorry if I have post this before but want to make sure is this the Twag V1 that Craig said he will replace with New Twag V2?
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/458447/twag-stranded-up-occ-silver-wire-whoa
   
  Thanks,


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## cooperpwc

I feel bad for Craig. What has happened is a common risk for businesses that process third party parts but it is particularly hard on a small vendor.
   
  I won't be sending back my TWag V1 centre-exit micro LOD because I bought it for the ergonomics and it won't sound any better if I do. That's a personal decision that we each have to make. Mine seems rational to me.


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## SACD-Man

I was referring to batch from the over molder, not a batch of wire. 

Please do NOT twist this around. 

This issue IMO was been addressed and cables will be replaced. If anyone has questions, please email me. 

I'm already ruined....what else do you want??

Craig


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