# Vali 2 tube rolling



## Capt369

I'd like to hear from others who have rolled the 6dj8 etc. with this amp and what their impressions are of each tube tried, from cheap to exotic.
  
 Thanks.


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## Designer79

Could we extend on the idea of this thread a bit? It seems the Vali 2 is shipping with different stock tubes. Would be nice to know what everybody got as the stock tube, and what it's sonic performance is compared to the tubes used for rolling. I got a US made Sylvania, have to check the exact spec and number once I finish work, will add a pic as well.


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## Capt369

designer79 said:


> Could we extend on the idea of this thread a bit? It seems the Vali 2 is shipping with different stock tubes. Would be nice to know what everybody got as the stock tube, and what it's sonic performance is compared to the tubes used for rolling. I got a US made Sylvania, have to check the exact spec and number once I finish work, will add a pic as well.


 

 Sure, anything to do with tubes for this amp would be great.


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## GrouchoMarx1933

Subbed. I'll be picking up my Vali 2 today, and I've got an Electro-Harmonix 6CG7 (current production) on the way from Tube Depot. I have my eye on one or two NOS tubes as well, but I didn't want to order them yet, as they're more expensive, and I think two tubes is good enough to start.


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## a44100Hz

I'll try to contribute to this over the weekend. I have a handful of tubes I've tried with it that need more listening time. So far a NOS Amperex Bugle Boy from Holland is taking the lead.


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## rgmffn

I just received my 6CG7 EH from Tube Depot today.  I've only got about 3 hrs on it so far but it's not sounding anywhere near like the 6922 EH.  I have a post in the main thread on the 6922 EH.  I'll give the 6CG7 some more time to break-in but it's got a long way to go equal the 6922 EH. I don't have much faith it's gonna make it.  The difference is _great_ _and easily_ apparent as it stands right now.
  
 I also have a JJ 6922.  It doesn't have much time on it.  I was pretty much underwhelmed when I tried it.  It was bland sounding.  I'll have to put some more break-in time on it, but it's last in the queue.
  
 And I have the stock tube.  Mine is an ITT 6BQ7A (Japan)  I have a great idea for that one.  A hammer.
 Ok, that might be a little extreme, but I don't like the one that came with mine.
  
 I'll give some kind of a comparison post sometime later when I've had more time with em.
  
 Oh,,, and I'm so smitten with the Electro-Harmonix 6922 EH, I've ordered another one from a different supplier just to see if the one I have just happens to be something special or what!   I'll let y'all know that too.


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## volly

Subbed, I'll be back....


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## GrouchoMarx1933

My Vali 2 is plugged and I'm listening now. The tube I got was stamped "Standard TV" (or TU possibly, the writing is a bit stylized). On the back is the number 6BQ7A, and on the side are numbers 4-17 and 274.
  
 This hasn't been plugged in long but I'm feeling it's more crisp while simultaneously less harsh than the single-ended out of the Geek Out V2, which I was previously using for my amping needs. There seems to be a touch more clarity and instrument separation/definition as well. It's not night and day, more like dusk and day, but it still feels like a good upgrade.


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## a44100Hz

My Vali 2 stock tube is a "6BZ7/6BQ7A CANADA". No other markings.


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## rgmffn

a44100hz said:


> My Vali 2 stock tube is a "6BZ7/6*8*Q7A CANADA". No other markings.


 
 I think that's /6_*B*_Q7A.


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## GrouchoMarx1933

Oh, mine says "Made in the USA". I just checked.


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## h2rulz

Here's my stock tube,
  
 6BQ7/6BZ7
 GE Electronic TUBE
 MADE IN U.S.A
  
  
 Currently listening to the 6CG7 electro-harmonix and enjoying its more laid back sound compared to the stock tubes.
 I also have a gold pin JJ E88CC. Will have to give the Electro Harmonix 6922 a try.
 So far, from my limited time with all the tubes, the JJ E88CC falls somewhere in between the stock and 6CG7 in terms of sound.


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## volly

Ok, here is my stock tube...

  
 And this one is the Philips 7DJ8...

  
 After some reading around I finally decide to roll the 7DJ8 tube in, works fine, very very quiet and first few hours of listen is a really airy and smooth sound.
  
 Bass is big and solid with a beautiful smooth mid range to die for! High's are noticeably more airy than the stock tube.
  
 However the stock tube is a great and I mean great start, Schiit picked a very decent tube to pair with the Vali 2.
  
 I can't wait for this tube to really burn in and open right up. 
  
 Got my eye on a few tubes, so stay tuned!


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## NewEinstein

I also received a 6BZ7/6BQ7A CANADA as the stock tube. I need to listen to it more to see what way I want to go. I will follow this thread to see how other tubes compare.


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## nordkapp

Any thoughts on the EH 6922? I just ordered one for my V2. I know it's a big time input/gain tube for a lot of the upper echelon stereo preamplifiers out there(ARC, BAT, MCINTOSH etc.)


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## NewEinstein

nordkapp said:


> Any thoughts on the EH 6922? I just ordered one for my V2. I know it's a big time input/gain tube for a lot of the upper echelon stereo preamplifiers out there(ARC, BAT, MCINTOSH etc.)







rgmffn said:


> I just received my 6CG7 EH from Tube Depot today.  I've only got about 3 hrs on it so far but it's not sounding anywhere near like the 6922 EH.  I have a post in the main thread on the 6922 EH.  I'll give the 6CG7 some more time to break-in but it's got a long way to go equal the 6922 EH. I don't have much faith it's gonna make it.  The difference is _great_ _and easily_ apparent as it stands right now.
> 
> Oh,,, and I'm so smitten with the Electro-Harmonix 6922 EH, I've ordered another one from a different supplier just to see if the one I have just happens to be something special or what!   I'll let y'all know that too.


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## volly

For those who might need some reference material for tubes that are specific for the Vali 2: http://www.upscaleaudio.com/6922/ 
  
 Hope this helps others, as it was a good starting point for me.


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## FoxyGrandpa

Very interested in this


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## Designer79

Another good source of info on the different gradings within the 6DJ8 family of tubes. Especially helpful for the folks like me that are new to the fine art of tube rollin'. Not the best of layouts for a webpage considering we are in the 2010's, but very helpful info ...
  
http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm
  
 And here is my stock tube: A "made in USA" Sylvania GD ... Markings state "W EZA" (probably 6EZA) no further indications ...
  

  
 I'd not call it a neutral tube, It seems to add some coloration to the very neutral characteristics of my Beyerdynamic T90. Slightly towards a more grainy, but still airy sound. It does very well for any music with grungy guitars, also doing very good with electronica, not so good with classical music.
  
 I'd like to try some Mullard tubes, just to get an impression on "real tube sound". Mullards are said to have a very "thick" sound, for most people too much, but it might do well for the treble(ish) T90's.


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## nordkapp

neweinstein said:


>


 
 Great, thanks bro. Keep me posted.


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## nordkapp

volly said:


> For those who might need some reference material for tubes that are specific for the Vali 2: http://www.upscaleaudio.com/6922/
> 
> Hope this helps others, as it was a good starting point for me.


 
 Big help, thanks


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## NewEinstein

nordkapp said:


> Great, thanks bro. Keep me posted.




Don't thank me ... I just directed you to a post of another headfi member. Thank him for that info


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## Tuneslover

I order an extra tube with my Vali 2, both are Sylvania 6BQ7A made in the USA. Not too bad sounding but a little thin in the treble. it's my first tube amp so maybe I'm still too SS burned-in. I stopped in at The Tube Depot in Hamilton, Ontario and asked if they had a tube that retained the nice bass of the sock tube but with a bit more treble clarity. They recommended the JJE88CC. Perfect recommendation. Ran it in for about 17 hours and it sounds awesome.


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## rgmffn

rgmffn said:


> I just received my 6CG7 EH from Tube Depot today.  I've only got about 3 hrs on it so far but it's not sounding anywhere near like the 6922 EH.  I have a post in the main thread on the 6922 EH.  I'll give the 6CG7 some more time to break-in but it's got a long way to go equal the 6922 EH. I don't have much faith it's gonna make it.  The difference is _great_ _and easily_ apparent as it stands right now.
> 
> I also have a JJ 6922.  It doesn't have much time on it.  I was pretty much underwhelmed when I tried it.  It was bland sounding.  I'll have to put some more break-in time on it, but it's last in the queue.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm quoting myself here.
  
 Well guys, I'm not sure how to word this.  But, I received my second 6922 EH earlier today.  I had stuff to do so I plugged er in and let it play for ~5hs for a little burn-in.  This second tube came from Tube Depot.  I ticked the balanced output and low noise boxes that added $6 to the price.  The first tube that I have been praising came from......... Amazon. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I didn't want to wait so that's why I got it from there.  I'm thinking you get what you get when ordering from there.
  
 After disclosing that, what do you think I'm going to say........
  
 The new tube from TD has the same, recognizable, sound like the first one has, but, it falls short.  That first tube I got from Amazon does appear to be special.  No wonder I've been so gaga over it.  It is crystal clear and spacious with deep luscious bass.  Very natural tonal wise also.  Slightly binaural sounding in its presentation.  Lush.  I could go on. The TD one is just not quite all the way there.
  
 The second one from TD is still the second best sounding tube I have.  Just to refresh, I have..
  
 ITT 6BQ7A (Japan)  - Stock tube - Too aggressive for my tastes _ alters the tone
 JJ 6922  (JJ ElectronICs)   A bit soft sounding & unengaging
 6GC7 (Electro-Harmonix)   Pleasant sounding.. not bad
 6922 EH (Electro-Harmonix)  (two)  My favorites
  
 So, I still recommend the 6922 EH.  I know there's a lot more out there to roll.  Specifically, the 6DJ8 is intriguing. 
  
 So, if anyone tries the 6922 EH, I'd love to hear what you think. Everybody probably for that matter.
  
 So, get to rollin' guys...  me, I'm headed back for some more tunes.


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## sheldaze

rgmffn said:


> I'm quoting myself here.
> 
> .
> .
> ...


 
 I too am trying to verify a particular tube I like (a 6CG7 in my case), bought very randomly and cheaply. And per your excitement 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I ordered 6922 EH (Electro-Harmonix). I'll be certain to tell you how it sounds when it arrives. And I did not order from either Amazon or Tube Depot


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## nordkapp

rgmffn said:


> I'm quoting myself here.
> 
> Well guys, I'm not sure how to word this.  But, I received my second 6922 EH earlier today.  I had stuff to do so I plugged er in and let it play for ~5hs for a little burn-in.  This second tube came from Tube Depot.  I ticked the balanced output and low noise boxes that added $6 to the price.  The first tube that I have been praising came from......... Amazon. :rolleyes:   I didn't want to wait so that's why I got it from there.  I'm thinking you get what you get when ordering from there.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. Great stuff.


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## Letmebefrank

My stock tube is an "international ServiceMaster" from Italy. The writing is messed up where it says the tube type but it looks like jbq7a/6bz7. It says 92277 Italy on the back. It sounds very good, has really good midrange.


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## Letmebefrank

Seems like the stock tube that came with my vali 2 has more emphasis on mids and bass but the 6CG7 EH tube has more clarity all around.


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## Capt369

letmebefrank said:


> My stock tube is an "international ServiceMaster" from Italy. The writing is messed up where it says the tube type but it looks like jbq7a/6bz7. It says 92277 Italy on the back. It sounds very good, has really good midrange.


 
 Interesting, thanks. There are certainly more 6dj8 types in the market than I suspected. Going to be a fun journey.


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## a44100Hz

I should have some new tubes in my mailbox today so I plan to add some comments tonight.


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## FoxyGrandpa

Can any tube experts out there recommended me a first tube . My headphones are the fidelio x2s. I'm looking for something that would bring the mids up front more I guess but still keep a nice warm sound and detail in the high end . Lol I don't know if this is thing or not . Lol just please recommendations


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## volly

foxygrandpa said:


> Can any tube experts out there recommended me a first tube . My headphones are the fidelio x2s. I'm looking for something that would bring the mids up front more I guess but still keep a nice warm sound and detail in the high end . Lol I don't know if this is thing or not . Lol just please recommendations


 
 Well, I have the X2's and I must say that the combination is intoxicating! Such involving sound, I wouldn't have thought that a tube amp would ever pair well with the X2's but indeed they do!
  
 I'm just a week or two in to rolling this tube that I've recently bought local through ebay...

 More info on it here at upscaleaduio.com: http://www.upscaleaudio.com/philips-pcc88-7dj8/ 
  
 Compared to the stock tube, I absolutely love this tube! It is an outstanding sounding tube especially for the money I paid!
  
 The highs are sparkly and clear without any fatigue, the bass is so well textured and powerful compared to the stock tube and the mid's (oh boy!) are just captivating! Listening to albums like Eric Clapton 'Pilgrim' was a surreal experience! 
  
 I'll be looking at Matsu****a, Mullard, Seimens and Telefunckens next, but this Philips tube will do me for a very long time! Also I'm loving that I'm using a Philips tube with a Philips Headphone, ohhhh the irony!


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## Letmebefrank

volly said:


> Well, I have the X2's and I must say that the combination is intoxicating! Such involving sound, I wouldn't have thought that a tube amp would ever pair well with the X2's but indeed they do!
> 
> I'm just a week or two in to rolling this tube that I've recently bought local through ebay...
> 
> ...


 
  
 So running a 7 volt tube works OK? Do you have to crank up the volume allot more or is the the same as the 6 volt?


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## Oskari

volly said:


>


 
  
 That is a Mullard if the "made in" is true. What's the etched code on it?


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## volly

letmebefrank said:


> So running a 7 volt tube works OK? Do you have to crank up the volume allot more or is the the same as the 6 volt?


 
 The 7dj8 is running just fine, volume is still at the same ratio as before, if anything you'll notice that the tube doesn't glow as bright as say a 6dj8 or equivalent.
  
 You're probably not to far off the mark, from my limited knowledge it shares the same characteristic as a Mullard but I don't have any other Mullard to compare except for a 12au7 series tube.
  
 Other markings on the tube are "Miniwatt 024", might have a closer look later mate!


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## Letmebefrank

I noticed the Electro Harmonix 6cg7 doesnt glow nearly as much as my stock 6bz7.


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## rgmffn

foxygrandpa said:


> Can any tube experts out there recommended me a first tube . My headphones are the fidelio x2s. I'm looking for something that would bring the mids up front more I guess but still keep a nice warm sound and detail in the high end . Lol I don't know if this is thing or not . Lol just please recommendations


 
  
 Hey Foxy... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I recommend the Electro-Harmonix  6922 EH.  If you do Amazon they have them there.  I have at this time 4 diff tubes.  The 6922 EH is clearly (there's a pun) the best of the lot.  Clear sounding, deep bass, crisp highs, forward vocals, it sounds absolutely perfect in my setup.  It should work well most everyone.  It has no weaknesses. It was a significant improvement over my stock tube.


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## Letmebefrank

My only worry about buying the 6922 eh from Amazon is the triodes could be out of balance.


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## rgmffn

letmebefrank said:


> My only worry about buying the 6922 eh from Amazon is the triodes could be out of balance.


 
  
 Well, I'm not sure how important that is in a Vali 2 circuit. ?  And, how far out would it have to be before you'd notice any difference? What kind of difference? L & R channel output imbalance?  And there must be some sort of regulatory spec that determines what is ok for sale.  As in, what diff is too much difference to market them.
  
 And if you read my post a ways back,  I have two of the 6922 EH tubes, one from Amazon, and one from Tube Depot that is balanced, and the Amazon one sounds the best.  So....  [shrug]


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## HOWIE13

rgmffn said:


> Well, I'm not sure how important that is in a Vali 2 circuit. ?  And, how far out would it have to be before you'd notice any difference? What kind of difference? L & R channel output imbalance?  And there must be some sort of regulatory spec that determines what is ok for sale.  As in, what diff is too much difference to market them.
> 
> And if you read my post a ways back,  I have two of the 6922 EH tubes, one from Amazon, and one from Tube Depot that is balanced, and the Amazon one sounds the best.  So....  [shrug]


 
 I've had similar experience to you.
 Way back tubes were tested before leaving the factory- I doubt they are now, and I don't think there are any industry specification regulations/standards as to the channel balance of tubes.
 I  don't take much notice when a seller claims a tube is balanced. Most don't really know what they are assessing- cathode current emission, transductance, amplification-many don't even specify-they often produce a % figure from a tester which may bear no relation to how the tube actually sounds when in use. Testers themselves are inaccurate if not regularly standardised, and even then there are limits as to what you are able to standardise in a tester. 
 You take pot luck when you buy a tube. The important thing is to use sellers who allow returns if you are not satisfied.


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## Capt369

Has anyone tried the Gold Lion yet?


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## HOWIE13

foxygrandpa said:


> Can any tube experts out there recommended me a first tube . My headphones are the fidelio x2s. I'm looking for something that would bring the mids up front more I guess but still keep a nice warm sound and detail in the high end . Lol I don't know if this is thing or not . Lol just please recommendations


 
 Bit difficult to answer as we may hear sound differently but I would have thought a 6DJ8/ECC88 Amperex 'Bugle Boy' (Holland), or Mullard (Blackburn, UK factory) would be likely to please. Try for 1950-70's if you can as they are the ones I can vouch for personally, and beware fakes. Good luck.


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## a44100Hz

So far a NOS Bugle Boy from Holland is my favorite tube for the sense of realism and wider soundstage. The EH 6922 Gold sounds a lot like my Magni 2, crisp but not tube-like. I'm wondering if that will change over the weekend.


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## Designer79

Does anyone have some experience with the Tesla E88CC gold pin? I guess this tube will be my first step up from the stock tube ...


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## jaywillin

designer79 said:


> Does anyone have some experience with the Tesla E88CC gold pin? I guess this tube will be my first step up from the stock tube ...


 
 i have, its a very nice tube
 i've had a couple of pairs, the best i had were NOS, crossed sword, mid-60's maybe


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## Designer79

jaywillin said:


> i have, its a very nice tube
> i've had a couple of pairs, the best i had were NOS, crossed sword, mid-60's maybe


 

 I ordered one, NOS made in the early 70's with the "32" designation (these are the ones made in the original factory, the later ones are labelled "37"), white printing, gold pins without the crossed swords (they are the military grade ones)  ... looking forward how they match the Beyerdynamic T90's. I think you got the best ones, @jaywillin ...


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## jaywillin

designer79 said:


> I ordered one, NOS made in the early 70's with the "32" designation (these are the ones made in the original factory, the later ones are labelled "37"), white printing, gold pins without the crossed swords (they are the military grade ones)  ... looking forward how they match the Beyerdynamic T90's. I think you got the best ones, @jaywillin ...


 
 yeah, there were very good, and relatively cheap, very close to a telefunken to my ears
 mine had the yellow printing , similar to these, i had them in my lyr
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2Pcs-NOS-TESLA-E88CC-ECC88-E188CC-6922-Matched-Pair-Gold-Pin-/301830222060?hash=item46467bb0ec:g:JBYAAOSw9mFWJwk~


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## HOWIE13

jaywillin said:


> yeah, there were very good, and relatively cheap, very close to a telefunken to my ears
> mine had the yellow printing , similar to these, i had them in my lyr
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2Pcs-NOS-TESLA-E88CC-ECC88-E188CC-6922-Matched-Pair-Gold-Pin-/301830222060?hash=item46467bb0ec:g:JBYAAOSw9mFWJwk~


 
  


designer79 said:


> I ordered one, NOS made in the early 70's with the "32" designation (these are the ones made in the original factory, the later ones are labelled "37"), white printing, gold pins without the crossed swords (they are the military grade ones)  ... looking forward how they match the Beyerdynamic T90's. I think you got the best ones, @jaywillin ...


 
 I couldn't convince myself there was any difference in sound between the 32 and 37 types using several headphones, though I don't have the T90's.
 I find them very clean, sweet and clear, reproducing  instrument timbre extremely well. They are my favourite 9 pins for solo piano.


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## Designer79

howie13 said:


> I couldn't convince myself there was any difference in sound between the 32 and 37 types using several headphones, though I don't have the T90's.
> I find them very clean, sweet and clear, reproducing  instrument timbre extremely well. They are my favourite 9 pins for solo piano.


 

 I guess there shouldn't be any noticeable difference between the 32's and 37's. Even though Tesla switched factories somewhen during the 1970's it should be obvious they moved all tools and machinery, so the 37's should be produced to the same standards. I was referring to a difference between the military grade Teslas (crossed swords) that jaywillin had in use, and the 'standard' E88CC's (without the crossed swords). I read somewhere, that the military grade tubes were produced to different standards, so it's possible they sound different.
  
 But thanks for your feedback, HOWIE13, really looking forward rolling them into the Vali2 now.


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## HOWIE13

designer79 said:


> I guess there shouldn't be any noticeable difference between the 32's and 37's. Even though Tesla switched factories somewhen during the 1970's it should be obvious they moved all tools and machinery, so the 37's should be produced to the same standards. I was referring to a difference between the military grade Teslas (crossed swords) that jaywillin had in use, and the 'standard' E88CC's (without the crossed swords). I read somewhere, that the military grade tubes were produced to different standards, so it's possible they sound different.
> 
> But thanks for your feedback, HOWIE13, really looking forward rolling them into the Vali2 now.


 
 Hope you enjoy them.


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## GrouchoMarx1933

I just popped in the Electro-Harmonix 6CG7 that a few people here or in the main Vali 2 thread recommended. The soundstage is much smaller than with the stock tube, but it also seems to make detail retrieval a little easier. It feels a touch warmer as well, but the low end quantity is lessened. For $25 it's not bad, but I could probably do better by spending a little more to get some NOS tubes that aren't crazy expensive.


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## volly

merrick said:


> I just popped in the Electro-Harmonix 6CG7 that a few people here or in the main Vali 2 thread recommended. The soundstage is much smaller than with the stock tube, but it also seems to make detail retrieval a little easier. It feels a touch warmer as well, but the low end quantity is lessened. For $25 it's not bad, but I could probably do better by spending a little more to get some NOS tubes that aren't crazy expensive.


 
 I picked up my Philips 7Dj8 for $25 off a local Ebay'er. I'm still amazed by how this tube sounds, absolutely wonderful!
  
 I also have a Telefunken 7Dj8 on the way too, grabbed off Ebay for another $25, looking foward to that tube as well!
  
 Do some reading around and keep an eye out in your local area, you never know what you may find!
  
 Good luck!


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## HOWIE13

volly said:


> I picked up my Philips 7Dj8 for $25 off a local Ebay'er. I'm still amazed by how this tube sounds, absolutely wonderful!
> 
> I also have a Telefunken 7Dj8 on the way too, grabbed off Ebay for another $25, looking foward to that tube as well!
> 
> ...


 
 Is this the Philips you have?
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PCC88-7DJ8-PHILIPS-NOS-VALVE-TUBE-/260746635558?hash=item3cb5b5e926mPAx84Kc1OEhVLPUymOfTZg
  
 Thanks for any info.


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## volly

howie13 said:


> Is this the Philips you have?
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PCC88-7DJ8-PHILIPS-NOS-VALVE-TUBE-/260746635558?hash=item3cb5b5e926mPAx84Kc1OEhVLPUymOfTZg
> 
> Thanks for any info.



Most likely the same. Mine has miniwatt on the tube as well as the box. Quite a few tubes come from that region.

I got mine from a local ebay seller that sells old vintage equipment, has a small stock of tubes too.

Good luck howie.


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## HOWIE13

volly said:


> Most likely the same. Mine has miniwatt on the tube as well as the box. Quite a few tubes come from that region.
> 
> I got mine from a local ebay seller that sells old vintage equipment, has a small stock of tubes too.
> 
> Good luck howie.


 
 Thanks, Volly that's most helpful. Cheers.


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## volly

No worries, if you're starting out like me, check out the link below for a very informative read:
  
 http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm 
  
 Goes through all the *6DJ8 / 6922 / 7308 / Cca series **and gives you an understanding of what the heck is going on in the part of the tube world!*
  

 Just as a reference, that's what mine looks like.


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## HOWIE13

volly said:


> No worries, if you're starting out like me, check out the link below for a very informative read:
> 
> http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm
> 
> ...


 
 Appreciate the picture -though it looks like the magic word 'miniwatt' adds to the cost on eBay for some reason.
 I've used 6DJ8 tubes before but never 7DJ8's. They're intriguing me.


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## Oskari

volly said:


>




Still likely made by Mullard.


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## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Still likely made by Mullard.


 
 That would maybe explain the excellent sound-and higher price. I'm going to try and source  a cheaper priced one, if I can.


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## nwavesailor

Brent Jesse also has a 'where it was made and when' that should give you an idea. I've seen tubes marked 'Made in Gr. Britain' with Philips Holland production designation on the etching found on the bottom of many tubes. It could be Mullard, but that's half the fun of tubes................figuring out who REALLY made them!
  
http://www.audiotubes.com/mullcode.htm


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## HOWIE13

nwavesailor said:


> Brent Jesse also has a 'where it was made and when' that should give you an idea. I've seen tubes marked 'Made in Gr. Britain' with Philips Holland production designation on the etching found on the bottom of many tubes. It could be Mullard, but that's half the fun of tubes................figuring out who REALLY made them!
> 
> http://www.audiotubes.com/mullcode.htm


 
 I sometimes wish I had been born in the nineteen twenties and could have witnessed the evolution of all these tubes. But then I wouldn't have had the opportunity to enjoy present day Hi-Fi equipment.


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## a44100Hz

Edit: wrong thread. But I have a new tube to try tonight...


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## Oskari

howie13 said:


> That would maybe explain the excellent sound-and higher price. I'm going to try and source  a cheaper priced one, if I can.


 
  
 Philips "Heerlens" are very popular as well. (Btw, Mullard was a Philips subsidiary.)


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Philips "Heerlens" are very popular as well. (Btw, Mullard was a Philips subsidiary.)


 
  I read they sometimes interchanged their labels. Mullard are often characterised as being mellow but I've usually found them sweetly detailed and not particularly overly warm -but that's maybe because of the amps/cans I've used them with.


----------



## Oskari

Yes, rebranding was common in this business. In general, labels cannot be trusted.


----------



## nwavesailor

oskari said:


> Yes, rebranding was common in this business. In general, labels cannot be trusted.


 

 I agree, but the glass etching (if marked) denotes where it was built, not the name or branding on the tube..........brands can say brand X and it is really brand Y.


----------



## Oskari

nwavesailor said:


> I agree, but the glass etching (if marked) denotes where it was built, not the name or branding on the tube..........brands can say brand X and it is really brand Y.




True.


----------



## a44100Hz

I don't know why but music is sounding SO good to me tonight. I just popped a Brimar ECC88 tube into the Vali 2 and it's so inviting! Musical and detailed. I feel like I'm drunk on sound tonight though, I'll try swapping out another tube and see if everything sounds good or if this tube is especially great with my 400i.


----------



## Designer79

howie13 said:


> Hope you enjoy them.


 
  
 Tesla's arrived ... and man, it does sound great! It's probably the steal of the century for a E88CC tube, so anybody who can get one for 25 bucks should definitely not hesitate. Like @HOWIE13 mentioned, it's instrumental reproduction is accurate and with lots of timbre, cellos, pianos, accoustic guitars, and female voices will benefit greatly. More, it makes the sound overall more present, drumkits just got a new level of authority over my stock tube, very articulated and with more thud. I wouldn't say it extends the bass range, but on the other hand that also means no boominess nor muddiness, it's a very precise tube. It just lends the bass more punch. The midrange is definitely more pronounced. I agree it's absolutely fantastic and suits a wide range of genres like vocalists, indie pop, ensemble jazz, progressive rock, even the cool Brits (Arctic Monkeys). I still got to listen in on some of my downtempo EDM ...  I have the feeling it narrows the soundstage a bit but that might just be the sideeffect of the Tesla presenting the midrange so well. It's like you get seated almost face to face with the singer in the central sound stage. Also, this is just a short first impression, I'd like to report back with a more in depth review after some good hours in. But for anyone owning Beyerdynamic cans I can already report this tube is a revelation! It articulates everything even better, and I am under the impression that the T90's "infamous" treble'ish' behaviour is mellowed out a lot. A very enjoyable experience!
  
 Impressions:
  

  

  
 The tube is a goldpinned NOS Tesla E88CC with the factory code "32". Ring-style getter looks nice ...
  
 Cheers fellow Head-Fi'ers, enjoy your gear!


----------



## jaywillin

those teslas do sound good, i loved mine, and compared very well to some high dollar telefunkens i had at the time
 now,  let's hope everyone won't start buying them, and drive the price up


----------



## HOWIE13

jaywillin said:


> those teslas do sound good, i loved mine, and compared very well to some high dollar telefunkens i had at the time
> now,  let's hope everyone won't start buying them, and drive the price up


 
 Another very good value tube with similar sound characteristics to the Teslas is the Tungsram E88CC, made in Hungary. Maybe just marginally warmer in tone, very nice I find with vocals, but doesn't quite reproduce instrumental timbre like the Teslas do.


----------



## nwavesailor

designer79 said:


> Tesla's arrived ... and man, it does sound great! It's probably the steal of the century for a E88CC tube, so anybody who can get one for 25 bucks should definitely not hesitate. Like @HOWIE13 mentioned, it's instrumental reproduction is accurate and with lots of timbre, cellos, pianos, accoustic guitars, and female voices will benefit greatly. More, it makes the sound overall more present, drumkits just got a new level of authority over my stock tube, very articulated and with more thud. I wouldn't say it extends the bass range, but on the other hand that also means no boominess nor muddiness, it's a very precise tube. It just lends the bass more punch. The midrange is definitely more pronounced. I agree it's absolutely fantastic and suits a wide range of genres like vocalists, indie pop, ensemble jazz, progressive rock, even the cool Brits (Arctic Monkeys). I still got to listen in on some of my downtempo EDM ...  I have the feeling it narrows the soundstage a bit but that might just be the sideeffect of the Tesla presenting the midrange so well. It's like you get seated almost face to face with the singer in the central sound stage. Also, this is just a short first impression, I'd like to report back with a more in depth review after some good hours in. But for anyone owning Beyerdynamic cans I can already report this tube is a revelation! It articulates everything even better, and I am under the impression that the T90's "infamous" treble'ish' behaviour is mellowed out a lot. A very enjoyable experience!
> 
> Impressions:
> 
> ...


 

 If I may ask, where did you snag a '32' Tesla for $25? As per Howie 13 and some others, I was looking at the Tesla and Tungsram E88C's
  
 Was it from here:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/E88CC-6922-Tesla-NOS-TUBE-LOT-OF-1Pcs-/231758474328
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Designer79

nwavesailor said:


> If I may ask, where did you snag a '32' Tesla for $25? As per Howie 13 and some others, I was looking at the Tesla and Tungsram E88C's
> 
> Was it from here:
> 
> ...




It was a German Ebayer, Sold the Tesla as a "last one in stock" for 20 Euros (around 25$). Guess I got lucky ... But there seem to be quite a lot of German eBay shops still having E88CC Teslas in stock. Most are 32's with yellow printing though. It's maybe an advantage living in Europe to get your hands on all the German, Dutch, British and Eastern European NOS goodness. Shipping is definitely cheaper ...


----------



## Designer79

nwavesailor said:


> If I may ask, where did you snag a '32' Tesla for $25? As per Howie 13 and some others, I was looking at the Tesla and Tungsram E88C's
> 
> Was it from here:
> 
> ...


 
  
 For 13$ apiece I wouldn't hesitate one second. They are not the goldpinned ones though, but that shouldn't make any difference in terms of their sound quality or characteristics! E88CC/6922 tubes are a noticeable step up from the ECC88/6DJ8 ones. You'll enjoy them very much!


----------



## jaywillin

look for "crossed sword" teslas, highly recommended


----------



## nwavesailor

Anyone try the 6N23P in the V 2?
  
 I think I may have just dethroned the EH 6922 with a Amperex gold pin 6922 PQ, Made in the USA, not Holland!!! Perhaps this is not a fair comparison as the EH is current production and the Amperex was, at least until today, NOS from 1967.
  
 Good to actually use tubes I already own and have in pairs from long gone audio gear.


----------



## FoxyGrandpa

Hey may be wrong thread but anyone know where to get a small led to put under the tube to make it look like its glowing a lot more


----------



## nwavesailor

designer79 said:


> For 13$ apiece I wouldn't hesitate one second. They are not the goldpinned ones though, but that shouldn't make any difference in terms of their sound quality or characteristics! E88CC/6922 tubes are a noticeable step up from the ECC88/6DJ8 ones. You'll enjoy them very much!


 
 I did find a Tesla E88CC that is (I hope...) NOS..............we'll see when it arrives. I saw a listing from a US tube seller, Tube Monger, that said there were a lot of crossed swords versions that were relabeled trash with freshly printed boxes! This box looks like it has seen a little time and is a bit worn. Hope this one is the real deal (no crossed swords)


----------



## Designer79

nwavesailor said:


> I did find a Tesla E88CC that is (I hope...) NOS..............we'll see when it arrives. I saw a listing from a US tube seller, Tube Monger, that said there were a lot of crossed swords versions that were relabeled trash with freshly printed boxes! This box looks like it has seen a little time and is a bit worn. Hope this one is the real deal (no crossed swords)


 
  
 Sure looks like the real deal to me. Mine arrived in the exact same blue - yellow box with enough wear to assure it's NOS. Even the E88CC printing looks exactly the same on mine. They are not ancient, "32" code means early to mid 1970's the state of the box is reassuringly something that seems 40 years old  ... Another indication, maybe, that they are genuine: check the bottom of the tube, there should be a number embossed into the glass, mine is "12". I've also only heard the story about the reprinting with crossed swords. I have no idea how much more expensive the "military grade" Teslas are over the "standard" E88CC, but it's kinda sad that even in the price range of 25$ to 40$ tubes one already has to expect fakes around.


----------



## jaywillin

there are plenty of fake tubes out there, one hat to be pretty careful, i'm not very knowledgeable at far as tube identification goes
 i try to stick with established sellers (some offer returns), ask questions to the sellers, ask on tube threads here, and use some common sense
 as the old sayings go  "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is"  and "buyer beware"
 i kinda look at tube buying like i look at lending money, i don't give what i can't afford to lose


----------



## Capt369

We also might discuss the most reliable and honest tube sellers that we've used.


----------



## Designer79

capt369 said:


> We also might discuss the most reliable and honest tube sellers that we've used.




Considering the fact, that many who bought a Vali 2 as an entry into tube amplification, and are not experienced with NOS, tube identification and the problem of fakes, this is a really helpful idea!


----------



## HOWIE13

You can never be 100% sure about a tube until you have it in your hand and examined it and then listened to how it sounds. Even an honest dealer can inadvertently sell a rogue tube.
 Measuring tube characteristics on a tester may not pick up certain faults either, even if you believe the stated figures.
 My golden rule is simply to never buy from a seller that refuses returns.


----------



## jaywillin

being that the vali 2 uses the same tube type as the lyr, there is a wealth of information on the lyr tube rolling thread
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/673709/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers


----------



## Capt369

jaywillin said:


> being that the vali 2 uses the same tube type as the lyr, there is a wealth of information on the lyr tube rolling thread
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/673709/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers


 

 I started this thread because I was interested in various tube impressions with this amp not that one. Now it seems everyone has run off. Thanks for the input there jaywillin.


----------



## sheldaze

capt369 said:


> I started this thread because I was interested in various tube impressions with this amp not that one. Now it seems everyone has run off. Thanks for the input there jaywillin.


 
 I like this thread more 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I promise to post - in the middle of a DAC transition, which now has been postponed by a snow storm large enough to be named after a whale.


----------



## volly

capt369 said:


> I started this thread because I was interested in various tube impressions with this amp not that one. Now it seems everyone has run off. Thanks for the input there jaywillin.



I'm still here mate.

I'm waiting on my telefunken and prrhaps another seimens.

I seem to be accumalating more 7dj8 tubes lol.

As for my philips 7dj8, well it just sets the benchmark for me. Just an amazing tube. 

Right now, this very second...I have my synergy here folks. Just pure goodness coming from my x2.

I believe the vali2 will be hard to replace!


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

I put the stock tube back in. The EH 6CG7 was too closed in for my tastes.


----------



## sheldaze

merrick said:


> I put the stock tube back in. The EH 6CG7 was too closed in for my tastes.


 
 I liked an RCA 6CG7 NOS, but only paid $5 for it.
 I am a little suspicious due to the randomness of eBay - so the Electro-Harmonix 6CG7, with properly matched triodes, is what I'm going to try next.
  
 BTW, I'm using HD800 as my primary headphone test. I did not like the original tube with the HD800.
 When I get my DAC back in order, I'll try to characterize more.


----------



## nwavesailor

While Vali 2 specific tube info is fantastic, there are almost 600 pages of tube info at the the Lyr thread. I have used both threads to gain insight into what tubes seem to work and others that are just so-so. The more info the better!
  
 I also find useful info at the Garage 1216 Ember tube rolling thread. Their amps use a single tube and many tubes (6 volt and not too current hungry) that work and are used in their amps work in the Vali 2 as well.
  
 I will post later about some wacky tubes that I bought and is getting some rave reviews on that site.


----------



## jaywillin

capt369 said:


> I started this thread because I was interested in various tube impressions with this amp not that one. Now it seems everyone has run off. Thanks for the input there jaywillin.


 
 i was not suggesting people leave this thread, people were asking questions about TUBES than could be used in the vali 2, which happen to be the same as the tubes used in the lyr
 as such, one that has the vali 2, can learn some information on certain tubes there, buy a tube that interest them, and report back as to how it sounds in the vali 2.
 that seems a good way to learn about tubes that otherwise might go unnoticed by vali 2 owners. 
 i don't own a vali 2, i own a project sunrise, which can use the same tube type as the ones discussed here, i've owned a lyr (several times) as well as many other tube amps
 i like to use all the information i can about possible tube options.
 the teslas i was talking about earlier, which are a super tube, at a great price, i learned about them on the lyr thread. 
 i was merely trying to add some input, not "run anyone off"


----------



## Skarecrow77

volly said:


> I'm still here mate.
> 
> I'm waiting on my telefunken and prrhaps another seimens.
> 
> ...


 


 I'm really curious how the much-hyped Matsush!ta 7DJ8 compares to the Phillips 7DJ8. I don't suppose you've got one of the Matsush!tas on the way too, do you?


----------



## volly

skarecrow77 said:


> I'm really curious how the much-hyped Matsush!ta 7DJ8 compares to the Phillips 7DJ8. I don't suppose you've got one of the Matsush!tas on the way too, do you?



I'm watching some right now on ebay but they only come in a pair and are quite pricey. Some reports say that they have a similar sound to a telefunken 6dj8.

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/matsu****a-national-pcc88-7dj8/

Definately on the wish list!


----------



## Capt369

jaywillin said:


> i was not suggesting people leave this thread, people were asking questions about TUBES than could be used in the vali 2, which happen to be the same as the tubes used in the lyr
> as such, one that has the vali 2, can learn some information on certain tubes there, buy a tube that interest them, and report back as to how it sounds in the vali 2.
> that seems a good way to learn about tubes that otherwise might go unnoticed by vali 2 owners.
> i don't own a vali 2, i own a project sunrise, which can use the same tube type as the ones discussed here, i've owned a lyr (several times) as well as many other tube amps
> ...


 

 Everything`s cool, jaywillin. No problem.


----------



## Tuneslover

My parents purchased a stereo cabinet from Germany back in the late 1950's. It's a beautiful piece of wooden furniture with a lid that lifted up to reveal a large space with a record player in it and ample room to stack record albums. The front lower part of the cabinet folded out at a 45 degree angle exposing a glass panel listing a multitude of cities with radio stations throughout Germany and many parts of Europe. You could select a couple of FM bands as well as 3 short wave bands. This glass panel lights up with a bulb of some sort once it's opened to a certain point and if you half close it back up you get to see the electronics inside the unit. If I'm not mistaken I recall seeing quite a few tubes inside the cabinet. Around back I just need to unscrew 6-8 screws to remove the rear panel which should expose all of the electronics. It's probably been 40 or so years since it has been used so whatever tubes are in there may still be good. I have no idea what if any would work with my Vali 2. Next time I'm over at my parents place I'm going to have to check what kind of treasure trove I might be able to rouse from a long hibernation.


----------



## Capt369

tuneslover said:


> My parents purchased a stereo cabinet from Germany back in the late 1950's. It's a beautiful piece of wooden furniture with a lid that lifted up to reveal a large space with a record player in it and ample room to stack record albums. The front lower part of the cabinet folded out at a 45 degree angle exposing a glass panel listing a multitude of cities with radio stations throughout Germany and many parts of Europe. You could select a couple of FM bands as well as 3 short wave bands. This glass panel lights up with a bulb of some sort once it's opened to a certain point and if you half close it back up you get to see the electronics inside the unit. If I'm not mistaken I recall seeing quite a few tubes inside the cabinet. Around back I just need to unscrew 6-8 screws to remove the rear panel which should expose all of the electronics. It's probably been 40 or so years since it has been used so whatever tubes are in there may still be good. I have no idea what if any would work with my Vali 2. Next time I'm over at my parents place I'm going to have to check what kind of treasure trove I might be able to rouse from a long hibernation.


 

 That is very cool. Report back on your findings. Thanks.


----------



## rgmffn

sheldaze said:


> I liked an RCA 6CG7 NOS, but only paid $5 for it.
> I am a little suspicious due to the randomness of eBay - so the Electro-Harmonix 6CG7, with properly matched triodes, is what I'm going to try next.
> 
> BTW, I'm using HD800 as my primary headphone test. I did not like the original tube with the HD800.
> When I get my DAC back in order, I'll try to characterize more.


 
  
 I have an EH 6CG7 w/ balanced triodes and I don't like it as well as the EH 6922.  Your experiences will vary, of course. 
  
I am anxious to hear your determinations.
 
..And of course, I'm still here.


----------



## nwavesailor

National Union round plate 6F8G is REALLY sweet! I believe it may now have displaced the EH 6922 and Amperex PQ 6922.
  
 Hard to think that a pair of Visseaux 6J5G (with adapter) will be much better than the 6F8G..............time will tell!


----------



## rgmffn

nwavesailor said:


> National Union round plate 6F8G is REALLY sweet! I believe it may now have displaced the EH 6922 and Amperex PQ 6922.
> 
> Hard to think that a pair of Visseaux 6J5G (with adapter) will be much better than the 6F8G..............time will tell!


 
  
 So, size does matter.


----------



## nwavesailor

rgmffn said:


> So, size does matter.


 

 Yep, perhaps it does...........2, 6J5G's is even BIGGER in size than my single 6F8G.........this could be very good.
  
I'm hoping the Visseaux hype is true because the National Union RP 6F8G sounds really awesome. I have Tung Sol RP 6F8G's to roll in as well!


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

What are the potential downsides to using adapters to roll types of tubes the amp wasn't originally designed to run?


----------



## Capt369

merrick said:


> What are the potential downsides to using adapters to roll types of tubes the amp wasn't originally designed to run?


 

 Good question.


----------



## SneakyDomo

Let me give my impressions of the 4 tubes I have tried in the Vali 2.  For context I am new to the nicer headphone space and currently have HiFiman HE-400i's, newest revision.  Before the Vali 2 I was listening to these with a Fiio E-10k.  While the headphones sounded great with the E10K, it was apparent to me that the Fiio was marginal for their use as the their was not enough volume on some recordings with wide dynamic range, older live recordings for instance, and the last 1/3 of volume adjustment was unresponsive and would not increase volume at all.  I listen to mostly modern rock, some pop and electronica.  I had considered just getting a Magni 2 but felt like the difference between the E-10k might not be that apparent so I rolled the dice on the Vali 2.  I am using the E-10k as a DAC for the Vali 2 btw.  It is possible that the traditional tube sound is not for me or the type of music I listen to.  So there are some of my biases and limitations. 
  
 Stock tube was US made 6bq7, most of the markings are gone so I can't determine make.  The tube really smoothed out recordings but in the process erased a lot of the details that were very present when I used the E10k.  Bass quantity was ok but the texture of the bass was lacking.  I noticed this tube also pushed the vocals further away in the soundstage.  Best for really problematic recordings in my opinion but does no favors to well recorded material.  The original tube had popping in one channel and I received another one from Schiit that sounds fairly similar, maybe a smidge better bass.  This one is labeled 6BQ7A in a rectangle but with no other markings.
  
 Purchased a JJ E88CC from TubeDepot with matched triodes for $14.  The JJ is much clearer than either of the stock tubes with much greater detail especially in the highs.  The bass was ok but still has less texture that makes it a little more one note.  For the music I listen to this tube just doesn't sound quite right, though I would give it the nod over the stock tube for clarity alone.
  
 Finally along with the JJ I ordered an Electro-Harmonix 6922EH with matched triodes for $16.  This tube was clearly the best for the music I listen to.  The bass is even better than my E-10k, not sure if this is due to bass being over-represented in this tube or my E-10k lacking the power to do the low end justice.  There might be a tad less texture to the bass but this is just as likely due to it being fuller than the Fiio.  The high end is a little less bright than the JJ but the details missing in the stock tube are now very much present.  If this tube didn't exist I might have returned the Vali 2.
  
 TLDR 6922EH>JJEE88CC>6BQ7A


----------



## nwavesailor

merrick said:


> What are the potential downsides to using adapters to roll types of tubes the amp wasn't originally designed to run?


 

 So may not like all the connections and perhaps the signal not being as pure. I've used all sorts of adapters with success and have had a whole world of tube options open to me. You also need to know what tubes you can and can not  use. I had to check with Nick at Schiit to see what the max. heater current was before trying some tubes.
  
 I am using a 6F8G that is an earlier version of the 6SN7 with an anode connection on the top of the tube. It draws .6 amp (600 mA) and according to Nick that IS the max for the Vali 2 power supply!
  
 When they arrive I'll try a pair of 6J5G's (with an adapter) and see how they sound. Some folks at the Garage 1217 Ember amp thread are really enjoying those tubes. The Ember boys have a great deal more options with1 amp of heater current plus the option of using 6 or 12 volt tubes.
  
 I must say I'm quite taken by the Vali 2. Is there better amps for so little $$$, likely yes, but for now I'll see if I actually use this amp before moving a bigger and perhaps better tube amp. The footprint (toe print!) of this little Schitt is, IMO, also a big part of it's appeal.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

nwavesailor said:


> So may not like all the connections and perhaps the signal not being as pure. I've used all sorts of adapters with success and have had a whole world of tube options open to me. You also need to know what tubes you can and can not  use. I had to check with Nick at Schiit to see what the max. heater current was before trying some tubes.
> 
> I am using a 6F8G that is an earlier version of the 6SN7 with an anode connection on the top of the tube. It draws .6 amp (600 mA) and according to Nick that IS the max for the Vali 2 power supply!
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the info. I really don't want to spend a ton of money on tubes, especially since I found the EH 6CG7 so lacking, so I'm following this thread and will buy one or two based on the various recommendations. Not sure if I want to mess with an adapter but if there's a tube that's just stellar with the Vali 2 and requires an adapter, it might be worth it.


----------



## FoxyGrandpa

I am very interested in the Philips 7dj8 ($40) but do you guys think it's worth it over the ($20 eh 6922). What are the sound differences?


----------



## volly

foxygrandpa said:


> I am very interested in the Philips 7dj8 ($40) but do you guys think it's worth it over the ($20 eh 6922). What are the sound differences?


 
 I'd give them a try, no regrets! 
  
 The sound of tube might be different from system to system!
  
 Good luck!


----------



## nwavesailor

merrick said:


> Thanks for the info. I really don't want to spend a ton of money on tubes, especially since I found the EH 6CG7 so lacking, so I'm following this thread and will buy one or two based on the various recommendations. Not sure if I want to mess with an adapter but if there's a tube that's just stellar with the Vali 2 and requires an adapter, it might be worth it.


 
 Following your posts on the HifiMan HE 400S thread got me to look into the Vali 2 so, Merrick, I thank you for that!

 I think there are a ton of good 9 pin tubes that you could try w/o adding a tube saver (to clear the metal chassis lid) and adding an adapter...........6SN7 to 6922 for example.
  
 You liked the EH version of the 6CG7 so perhaps you would like the EH 6922. It has a very nice extended top end w/o any ugly brightness (I think we both have HiFiMan 400S) nice mids, pretty nice bass and it's less than $20!
  
 Another tube I own that sounds great in the Vali 2 is an Amperex PQ 6922. I was following 2 on E-Bay this morning and both sold for $30-$35.
  
 I am fortunate to have lots of tubes I've used over the years in other audio gear, so unless I am going down a new tube rabbit hole ( Tesla E88CC, Visseaux 6J5G w/ adapter!) I'm using stuff I already own.
  
 If you go the adapter route, the 6SN7 adapter would allow you to use an entirely new group of tubes from a few dollars up to $$$$$$$$$$.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

nwavesailor said:


> Following your posts on the HifiMan HE 400S thread got me to look into the Vali 2 so, Merrick, I thank you for that!
> 
> I think there are a ton of good 9 pin tubes that you could try w/o adding a tube saver (to clear the metal chassis lid) and adding an adapter...........6SN7 to 6922 for example.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks! It's cool to find people who have similar tastes that you can bounce opinions off of.
  
 One point of correction though, I didn't like the EH 6CG7. I saw a few people here recommend it, and it was $25 shipped from Tube Depot, so I went for it. I found it to be too closed in for my tastes, even with an HD600.
  
 What I'd like is a nice, open soundstage with good detail retrieval and slightly, but not excessively warm tonality. Something that gives me that tube tinge and makes me go, "Ah, this is why people prefer tubes over solid state!" I realize that may be asking a lot from low and mid-priced tubes, but I'm not going to spend more than the price of the amp on a tube for it.


----------



## nwavesailor

merrick said:


> Thanks! It's cool to find people who have similar tastes that you can bounce opinions off of.
> 
> One point of correction though, I didn't like the EH 6CG7. I saw a few people here recommend it, and it was $25 shipped from Tube Depot, so I went for it. I found it to be too closed in for my tastes, even with an HD600.
> 
> What I'd like is a nice, open soundstage with good detail retrieval and slightly, but not excessively warm tonality. Something that gives me that tube tinge and makes me go, "Ah, this is why people prefer tubes over solid state!" I realize that may be asking a lot from low and mid-priced tubes, but I'm not going to spend more than the price of the amp on a tube for it.


 

 Do by 'closed in' do you mean lacking detail?
  
 It's always tough to choose a tube for someone else. We all hear differently and prefer one tone or sound over others. I bought a lot of tubes over the years to either find I.........liked them......didn't like them..............or didn't seem to matter.
  
 I am a big fan of the Amperex house sound so I have quite a few Amperex 6DJ8, 6922 and 7308. Having said that, I had the EH 6922 around and gave it a spin. I was pleasantly surprised. It really was a very nice tube. Like your 6CG7, several folks seemed to like this current production EH 6922 tube. At $20 (or less) it might be worth a try. Any decent NOS or used Amperex, Tesla, Mullard would likely be more than $20.
  
 Have you read 'Joe's Tube Lore' on the 6DJ8, 6922, 7308 family of tubes? He gives a pretty good overview and description of the 'sound' of these tubes. You can find it at FAQ at Tube Asylum (Audio Asylum)


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

By closed in I meant the soundstage seemed very narrow in width and depth. It was like being right on stage with all the musicians sitting right next to me while they played. The detail was actually a bit better than the stock tube but it felt too in my face to really appreciate it. Maybe the 6922 would fare better.
  
 I'll have to take a look at the Joe's Tube Lore, thanks for the recommendation!


----------



## Guidostrunk

Hello folks. Wanted to chime in on some tube options. The great thing about the Vali2 , is that it only requires 1 tube. Which is a tube buyers dream when shopping for NOS , tubes. 

NOS tubes can get ridiculously, pricey, when shopping for matched pairs. Wanted to add some choices to this thread, having rolled numerous, NOS tubes over the last year+ with my Lyr. My final destination(Valvo CCa yellow print).

Since sound is subjective, and preferences vary. Here's a list to consider if you want to try some awesome, NOS tubes.


Siemens, and Telefunken E88CC, E188CC, CCa. Neutral presentation. Some may say analytical. I found that both to my ears were dead neutral , tonally. But, what they deliver in sound is stellar! These are Soundstage/Holography, monsters. And the CCa variant being the biggest of the German bunch. Very articulate, airy tubes, with an intricate, detailed presentation, with massive controlled bass. Price on these generally fetches , $50 to $100 for a single tube. Last year I paid $300 for a used pair. 

Valvo(Heerlen) E188CC, CCa, E88CC (Pinched waist 56to58). I'm also going to group the Philips Miniwatts E188CC in this category. 
I'm a huge fan of Heerlen , tubes. These are hands down the midrange KINGS!
Folks, if you're into a seductive, immersive, full , rich , detailed sound. With all of the sonics that Siemens CCa has to offer. Don't hesitate to take the plunge. These tubes present music in the most natural way. They literally put you in a live venue. To my ears , these are the most holographic, tubes I've ever heard. Your body is literally running interference with the notes. 
Now, what separates the Valvo CCa , from the minis is the bottom end to my ears. They incorporate most of what Mullard Blackburns have to offer, with the mini midrange sweetness. Be careful when shopping for these tubes. Heerlen tubes have the delta triangle in the codes. Here's a code pic:
 
Now as far as pricing. For the Valvos. I've seen them go for anywhere from $40 for a single , upwards of $300 for a 56 pinched waist. The closer you get to the 50's , the rarer , and more expensive they are. For the most part, they can be had for $60 to $70 for an early to mid 60's single NOS tube. Same for the Minis. As opposed to buying a pair which recently we watched an auction that went for $1800 , for a pair of Eindhoven CCa PW's :eek:

Mullard Blackburn 6922/E88CC(gold pin) & ECC88. Who likes butter on their popcorn? And lots of it? Lol. These tubes are the epitome of warmth. They have an organic rich tone which is immersive as well. Female vocals are ridiculous with these tubes. These possibly have the best bass presentation of any tube. If these had a even half the holography, and Soundstage of the above. They'd be in my rig. I highly recommend these tubes , with phones like Grado, Senn HD700 ,HD800, and pretty much every phone where treble may need some taming. Price on these is in the neighborhood of $30 to $60 for a single tube. I had 3 different pairs of these in the past and didn't pay more than $150 for a pair.

Some other reasonably priced and nice sounding NOS tubes:

ECC88 Amperex Orange Globes- Similar sounding to the Mullards. A little more detailed. Singles for around $20

6N23P Russian reflektor. PM @rb2013. He has numerous tubes to fit most sound sigs that people are shopping for. These tubes are hidden gems. Bob is the expert on them. I've had the 75 SWPG Holy Grails. They're still one of my favs.

PCC88 Valvo, Siemens- Not bad for the price. I had a pair of 1960's Valvo Herleens, so my experience is limited. People in the old Lyr thread rave over them. 

Well folks. I hope this helps if anyone is new to tube rolling. Of course this is all subjective and YMMV. Stop by the Lyr thread if you have questions. Lots of people over there eager to help in any way. 

Cheers, and Happy Rolling


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

@Guidostrunk thanks for the excellent summary! It sounds like those Valvo/Philips Miniwatt Herleen plant tubes are exactly what I'm looking for. Do you know of a good source for them or you just check ebay from time to time?


----------



## nwavesailor

merrick said:


> @Guidostrunk thanks for the excellent summary! It sounds like those Valvo/Philips Miniwatt Herleen plant tubes are exactly what I'm looking for. Do you know of a good source for them or you just check ebay from time to time?


 

 Herleen is 'Holland' Philips production. You can also find Amperex tubes with Herleen production but the Philips 'branded' (Herleen plant) may cost a bit less.
  
 Anything CCa, 'pinched waist' or 188CC will likely be WAY more $$$ than you may want to spend for 1, 9 pin tube going in a Vali 2. If you can find one in this group (that @Guidostrunk has seen) for $40 snag it.........I have a feeling that you may have to search for a deal that good but I haven't looked lately.
  
 Edit: just did an E-Bay search for E188CC...................hang on to your wallet!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  
 Be sure to check Joe's Tube Lore as well. We all have opinions and our favorites!


----------



## HOWIE13

merrick said:


> Thanks! It's cool to find people who have similar tastes that you can bounce opinions off of.
> 
> One point of correction though, I didn't like the EH 6CG7. I saw a few people here recommend it, and it was $25 shipped from Tube Depot, so I went for it. I found it to be too closed in for my tastes, even with an HD600.
> 
> What I'd like is a nice, open soundstage with good detail retrieval and slightly, but not excessively warm tonality. Something that gives me that tube tinge and makes me go, "Ah, this is why people prefer tubes over solid state!" I realize that may be asking a lot from low and mid-priced tubes, but I'm not going to spend more than the price of the amp on a tube for it.


 
 Octals should provide the sound you crave.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

Octals require adapters, right?


----------



## HOWIE13

merrick said:


> Octals require adapters, right?


 
 Sure- but I've never had a problem with the Vali and octal adapters. Just slot in and play.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

howie13 said:


> Sure- but I've never had a problem with the Vali and octal adapters. Just slot in and play.




Where did you get your adapters and what are some good Octals to look at? Thanks!


----------



## nwavesailor

Merrick......did you get a chance to read Part 1 and Part 2 of Joe's Tube Lore at Audio Asylum describing the 6DJ8, 6922, 7308 tubes?
  
 Yes, a new group of would open using octal tubes, but you didn't seem too excited about adding adapter(s).
  
 Between Joe's Tube Lore and Guidostruck's thoughts on these 9 pin tubes (w/o a converter) there are some really nice tubes that would work for you. I have bought some great tubes and some clunkers over time and that's the nature of tubes in audio gear. as always, YMMV!!!


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

@nwavesailor I did read Joe's article, thank you! I'm not sure I'm going to jump into octals, I was just curious what the options were.
  
 With @Guidostrunk's help I've got my eye on a few reasonably priced tubes that don't require an adapter. If I manage to get any and I like the sound, I doubt I'll pursue octals. On the other hand, it's never bad to have more information.


----------



## HOWIE13

merrick said:


> Where did you get your adapters and what are some good Octals to look at? Thanks!


 
 Impossible to answer the question as to which particular Octals will suit you best as it all depends on your musical tastes, sources, cans and ears.
 This thread is the most informative I know for general information about 6SN7 tubes:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 Other Octals include dual single triodes, like 7193 tubes and 6J5 tubes.
  
 All need adapters which can readily be sourced on ebay
  
 They are  6SN7 to ECC88
                7193 to  ECC88
         and  6J5   to  ECC88 
  
 If it's holographic, generous sound staging you are looking for with good instrument separation and lots of detail in the sound then I would personally advise the dual 6J5 set up. There are lots to chose from. Recent postings in the Project Ember tube rolling thread may help too.
 Good luck!


----------



## nwavesailor

merrick said:


> @nwavesailor I did read Joe's article, thank you! I'm not sure I'm going to jump into octals, I was just curious what the options were.
> 
> With @Guidostrunk's help I've got my eye on a few reasonably priced tubes that don't require an adapter. If I manage to get any and I like the sound, I doubt I'll pursue octals. On the other hand, it's never bad to have more information.


 

 Yes, there are some nice 9 pins out there. Be sure to consider Brent Jesse, Tube World and some other dealers as well. I've snagged lots of deals on E-Bay but some not as advertised junk as well.
  
 The hunt is half the fun of tubes!!!!!!!


----------



## Letmebefrank

Ordered a 6922 EH today from tubedepot. Hopefully it fills in the lower end the 6CG7 is lacking a bit of.


----------



## nwavesailor

I must repeat that I was pleasantly surprised by the EH 6922! I wasn't expecting much until several folks posted positively. I had some around as well as the EH Gold so...........why not?
  
 Nice treble extension, decent mids and fairly low, lows with good detail retrieval. If I had to live with it I would be OK. Have I found better tubes, yes, but all vintage or NOS, not an inexpensive current production Russian 6922.


----------



## nwavesailor

merrick said:


> @nwavesailor I did read Joe's article, thank you! I'm not sure I'm going to jump into octals, I was just curious what the options were.
> 
> With @Guidostrunk's help I've got my eye on a few reasonably priced tubes that don't require an adapter. If I manage to get any and I like the sound, I doubt I'll pursue octals. On the other hand, it's never bad to have more information.


 

*Merrick, let us know what tube(s) you decide to try!*


----------



## VolumusMaximus

Received my Vali 2 with an RCA 6BQ7A.  Nice sound, with a clean midrange.
  
 Rolled a Sovtek 6N1P.. very harsh, forward mids. Narrow soundstage. Even after 50 hours of burn in, the rough edges were not smoothed out. Borderline fatiguing.
  
 Installed a Philips 7DJ8/PCC88..wow.. even out of the box, the improved bass extension and impact was readily discernible.  Nice air and separation. Clear highs, but not too bright.  Snare drum has the proper impact, cymbals have the correct sizzle and decay.  Mids are just beautiful, with a touch of warmth.  Very comfortable listening... and this is out of the box.. very pleased.  Seems the power output is less than the other 2 tubes, but it could be that it's so clean and much less fatiguing that it seems 'less' at the same volume position.  Highly recommended.


----------



## nwavesailor

volumusmaximus said:


> Received my Vali 2 with an RCA 6BQ7A.  Nice sound, with a clean midrange.
> 
> Rolled a Sovtek 6N1P.. very harsh, forward mids. Narrow soundstage. Even after 50 hours of burn in, the rough edges were not smoothed out. Borderline fatiguing.
> 
> Installed a Philips 7DJ8/PCC88..wow.. even out of the box, the improved bass extension and impact was readily discernible.  Nice air and separation. Clear highs, but not too bright.  Snare drum has the proper impact, cymbals have the correct sizzle and decay.  Mids are just beautiful, with a touch of warmth.  Very comfortable listening... and this is out of the box.. very pleased.  Seems the power output is less than the other 2 tubes, but it could be that it's so clean and much less fatiguing that it seems 'less' at the same volume position.  Highly recommended.


 

 7 volt tube in a 6 volt circuit......less output?


----------



## volly

volumusmaximus said:


> Received my Vali 2 with an RCA 6BQ7A.  Nice sound, with a clean midrange.
> 
> Rolled a Sovtek 6N1P.. very harsh, forward mids. Narrow soundstage. Even after 50 hours of burn in, the rough edges were not smoothed out. Borderline fatiguing.
> 
> Installed a Philips 7DJ8/PCC88..wow.. even out of the box, the improved bass extension and impact was readily discernible.  Nice air and separation. Clear highs, but not too bright.  Snare drum has the proper impact, cymbals have the correct sizzle and decay.  Mids are just beautiful, with a touch of warmth.  Very comfortable listening... and this is out of the box.. very pleased.  Seems the power output is less than the other 2 tubes, but it could be that it's so clean and much less fatiguing that it seems 'less' at the same volume position.  Highly recommended.




Love my philips.

Don't have an issue with the volume though, still plenty of gain!


----------



## VolumusMaximus

The volume decrease with the Philips is very, very slight.. If any. It's most likely just my perception. Really a sweet sounding tube.


----------



## HOWIE13

volly said:


> Love my philips.
> 
> Don't have an issue with the volume though, still plenty of gain!


 
 Is your Philips a 'miniwatt' version? They are much more expensive than non-miniwatt types.


----------



## HOWIE13

volumusmaximus said:


> Received my Vali 2 with an RCA 6BQ7A.  Nice sound, with a clean midrange.
> 
> Rolled a Sovtek 6N1P.. very harsh, forward mids. Narrow soundstage. Even after 50 hours of burn in, the rough edges were not smoothed out. Borderline fatiguing.
> 
> Installed a Philips 7DJ8/PCC88..wow.. even out of the box, the improved bass extension and impact was readily discernible.  Nice air and separation. Clear highs, but not too bright.  Snare drum has the proper impact, cymbals have the correct sizzle and decay.  Mids are just beautiful, with a touch of warmth.  Very comfortable listening... and this is out of the box.. very pleased.  Seems the power output is less than the other 2 tubes, but it could be that it's so clean and much less fatiguing that it seems 'less' at the same volume position.  Highly recommended.


 
 is your Philips the 'Miniwatt' version? They are much more expensive than non-miniwatt versions.


----------



## volly

howie13 said:


> is your Philips the 'Miniwatt' version? They are much more expensive than non-miniwatt versions.


 
 This is mine here and yes it does say "Miniwatt" on the tube but take that how you want it!


----------



## HOWIE13

volly said:


> This is mine here and yes it does say "Miniwatt" on the tube but take that how you want it!


 
 Thanks-I know what you mean. I just didn't want to buy the much cheaper non-miniwatt version and then be disappointed.
 I think I best wait for a cheaper miniwatt version to turn up- unless someone else can confirm the non miniwatt version sounds very good too.


----------



## volly

I was in the right place at the right time, I got mine for 25 (Aus) dollars from a local Ebay seller! 
  
 I wasn't even sure if it was going to work out, but I'm not regretting this tube at all...in fact it's opened up my eyes to see how good a purchase the Vali 2 was for me!
  
 I said a few post back that I'm currently in Audiophile Nirvana, this tube got me there...just WOW!
  
 Go with your gut instincts, perhaps you'll get lucky Howie!


----------



## FoxyGrandpa

The Philips 7dj8 is 45$ but the mini watt version is $57. What's the difference(


----------



## volly

foxygrandpa said:


> The Philips 7dj8 is 45$ but the mini watt version is $57. What's the difference(


 
 Probably not a lot!
  
 Quoting audiotubes.com:
  
*Finally, Philips (the parent company of Amperex) owned a number of tube brands, and many were never seen outside of Europe. Most were actually made in the same Heerlen, Holland factory that turned out the Bugleboy 6DJ8 and PQ 6922 Amperex. Watch for tubes labeled E88CC with brands like Valvo, R/T, RTC, Miniwatt, Dario, Philips, and Adzam. These tubes are identical to the Amperex PQ and Philips SQ (Special Quality) types more often found in America, and are perfect if the Amperex is not available, since they sound and look the same. Also rare in America are these same brands made at the Philips-owned Mazda factory (La Radiotechnique) in Suresnes, France. These usually have a capital "F" in the second line of the date code. They are sweet like the Holland tubes, with a bit better detail and punch at the top end, and still have nice balanced warmth. We are one of the very few worldwide tube dealers to offer these rare NOS French Philips tubes.*
  
 Hope this helps!


----------



## HOWIE13

foxygrandpa said:


> The Philips 7dj8 is 45$ but the mini watt version is $57. What's the difference(


 
  
 I wish I knew the answer to that question.
 Actually there is a UK seller offering the non-miniwatt variety at the much lower price of £19 ($27)
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PCC88-7DJ8-PHILIPS-NOS-VALVE-TUBE-/260746635558?hash=item3cb5b5e926mPAx84Kc1OEhVLPUymOfTZg
  
 I would prefer to purchase one of these if the miniwatt version sounded similar or was the same tube.


----------



## HOWIE13

volly said:


> Probably not a lot!
> 
> Quoting audiotubes.com:
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for providing this helpful info. Maybe the Miniwatt PCC88 is equivalent to Philips SQ, though I don't know how much difference, if any, this would make to the sound quality.


----------



## VolumusMaximus

This tube does not appear to be a 'mini-watt' - that label does not appear.  The only tag on the tube is "Philips PCC88".  Purchased from upscaleaudio, and the tube looks exactly like the photo on their website.  Let it burn in overnight.. some tracks are now almost holographic- very out-of-head sonic experience (400i)... smooth and balanced across the entire spectrum. Definitely worth the $45, imo.


----------



## HOWIE13

volumusmaximus said:


> This tube does not appear to be a 'mini-watt' - that label does not appear.  The only tag on the tube is "Philips PCC88".  Purchased from upscaleaudio, and the tube looks exactly like the photo on their website.  Let it burn in overnight.. some tracks are now almost holographic- very out-of-head sonic experience (400i)... smooth and balanced across the entire spectrum. Definitely worth the $45, imo.


 
 That settles it- I'm buying in. Thanks for your help.


----------



## nwavesailor

Volly, when you get some time, please look at the side near the bottom of the PCC88 tube for 2 rows of very small numbers and symbols  etched in the glass. This would denote the year/month of production as well as the Philips plant where your PCC88 was produced. I think this might be helpful to others looking for this tube branded as Philps, Miniwatt, Valvo, Mazda, etc.


----------



## Guidostrunk

In my experience, the PCC88 has a lot narrower Soundstage compared to the E188CC. I'd look for an E188CC miniwatt , early to mid 60's. If you're vigilant, they can be had for $50 to $60. 
Here's an example, and this seller is top notch. 1960 D getter.
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=381525608570&alt=web 





howie13 said:


> Thanks for providing this helpful info. Maybe the Miniwatt PCC88 is equivalent to Philips SQ, though I don't know how much difference, if any, this would make to the sound quality.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

guidostrunk said:


> In my experience, the PCC88 has a lot narrower Soundstage compared to the E188CC. I'd look for an E188CC miniwatt , early to mid 60's. If you're vigilant, they can be had for $50 to $60.
> Here's an example, and this seller is top notch. 1960 D getter.
> http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=381525608570&alt=web




Okay but please nobody bid on that particular one, because I already have and I really don't want to pay through the roof on it.


----------



## Capt369

merrick said:


> Okay but please nobody bid on that particular one, because I already have and I really don't want to pay through the roof on it.


 

 I'll respect that. Thanks for the advice on this tube.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

I'll probably still get outbid at the last minute. That's eBay for you.


----------



## Capt369

merrick said:


> I'll probably still get outbid at the last minute. That's eBay for you.


 
  

 Been there, done that.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

Once I paid way too much money for a first pressing of The Velvet Underground's White Light/White Heat because I was too stupid to step down once the bidding war started.


----------



## Capt369

merrick said:


> Once I paid way too much money for a first pressing of The Velvet Underground's White Light/White Heat because I was too stupid to step down once the bidding war started.


 

 Lol.... again, been there, done that. Sometimes we're the window, sometimes we're the bug.


----------



## nwavesailor

merrick said:


> I'll probably still get outbid at the last minute. That's eBay for you.


 

 Yep we've all been there!
  
 Heck I don't even bother bidding on E-Bay until the last 5 seconds (if I'm available) of an auction as I'll either get it or not at that point (unless I'm snipped at 2 seconds). Early bidding ultimately ended up just costing me more in the end.
  
 If ya DON'T win this one, there are plenty more fish..........I mean E188CC's............. in the sea!!!
  
 Best of luck, Merrick!


----------



## Oskari

nwavesailor said:


> Volly, when you get some time, please look at the side near the bottom of the PCC88 tube for 2 rows of very small numbers and symbols  etched in the glass. This would denote the year/month of production as well as the Philips plant where your PCC88 was produced. I think this might be helpful to others looking for this tube branded as Philps, Miniwatt, Valvo, Mazda, etc.




Yes. With Philips group tubes it is essential to check the codes to find out the factory. The brands, the printed labels mean virtually nothing.


----------



## Designer79

oskari said:


> Yes. With Philips group tubes it is essential to check the codes to find out the factory. The brands, the printed labels mean virtually nothing.


 
  
 The ultimate guide to Philips tubes factory codes can be found here in handy PDF format:
  
 frank.pocnet.net/other/*Philips*/*PhilipsCode*ListAB.pdf
  
 Obviously the Philips made in the Dutch Herleen factory (which also applies to Valvo / RCT / ... tubes produced there, see @volly's post two pages back) can have either a "tipped over Delta" in the factory code, or a 9. The PDF also shows you where to look for the code through some nifty schematics. Very interesting info for closer examinations of pic's on eBay, to know if you get the real schiit, or not ...


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

Well, no surprise, I lost both auctions I was bidding on for Philips Miniwatt tubes. Anyone know of a good supplier for them that doesn't price gouge and isn't ebay?


----------



## nwavesailor

merrick said:


> Well, no surprise, I lost both auctions I was bidding on for Philips Miniwatt tubes. Anyone know of a good supplier for them that doesn't price gouge and isn't ebay?


 

 Don't give up after 2 auctions in 1 day and no 'winning'. That is par for E-Bay..........there are TONS of E188CC and E88CC Philips production out there and you just need to do some more looking, hunting and last second(s) bidding!
  
 Any good tube dealer will charge a lot more for the tubes you tried to snag today at E-bay winning bids of $60-$90 + shipping.
  
 Take a look at Tube World, Brent Jesse, Upscale and many others good reputable tube dealers to see what these premium 6DJ8 / 6922 / 7308 Philips production tubes sell for at retail......serious $$$
  
 E-Bay UK, Holland, Germany would be worth searching as the premium tubes you're looking for were made in Holland.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

I'm still watching a few others, but I'm worried these might all get priced out of my range. Anyone have any experience with the current production Telefunkens? Worth a shot or no? I'm also considering a NOS Telefunken PCC88, anyone have any experience with those?


----------



## nwavesailor

Be careful............there is a lot of 'fake' high end relabeled Tele's out there.
  
 Likely less so with a reasonably priced Tele PCC88. Not as many folks hunting for those! I have a Tunsgram PCC88 that I'll try tonight in the V 2.
  
 Langrex (UK) has the Philips PCC88 for 15 British Pounds + shipping. Don't know if it will get you where you want to be, but others on this thread really like it!


----------



## Designer79

nwavesailor said:


> Don't give up after 2 auctions in 1 day and no 'winning'. That is par for E-Bay..........there are TONS of E188CC and E88CC Philips production out there and you just need to do some more looking, hunting and last second(s) bidding!
> 
> Any good tube dealer will charge a lot more for the tubes you tried to snag today at E-bay winning bids of $60-$90 + shipping.
> 
> ...


 

  @Merrick, There are a few German eBay Shops with pretty constant supply of E88CC or even E188CC tubes. You can instabuy, sometimes even negotiate the price. Chose the ones that have a 15 to 30 days return policy (I think the listed ones all do) ...
  
 http://stores.ebay.com/AUDIOTUBES-VALVES
 http://stores.ebay.com/Grosses-Tube-Zentrum
 http://stores.ebay.com/WEGE-High-Fidelity


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

designer79 said:


> @Merrick
> , There are a few German eBay Shops with pretty constant supply of E88CC or even E188CC tubes. You can instabuy, sometimes even negotiate the price. Chose the ones that have a 15 to 30 days return policy (I think the listed ones all do) ...
> 
> http://stores.ebay.com/AUDIOTUBES-VALVES
> ...




Thank you! That will be a huge help.


----------



## Oskari

designer79 said:


> The ultimate guide to Philips tubes factory codes can be found here in handy PDF format:
> 
> frank.pocnet.net/other/*Philips*/*PhilipsCode*ListAB.pdf




Yes. There is a later version at http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB-v10.pdf. Also note http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeList.pdf.




designer79 said:


> Obviously the Philips made in the Dutch Herleen factory (which also applies to Valvo / RCT / ... tubes produced there, see @volly
> 's post two pages back) can have either a "tipped over Delta" in the factory code, or a 9.




You won't be seeing lots of 9s. You will be seeing plenty of those triangles.




designer79 said:


> The PDF also shows you where to look for the code through some nifty schematics. Very interesting info for closer examinations of pic's on eBay, to know if you get the real schiit, or not ...




Entirely true.


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> That is a Mullard if the "made in" is true. What's the etched code on it?







nwavesailor said:


> Volly, when you get some time, please look at the side near the bottom of the PCC88 tube for 2 rows of very small numbers and symbols  etched in the glass. This would denote the year/month of production as well as the Philips plant where your PCC88 was produced. I think this might be helpful to others looking for this tube branded as Philps, Miniwatt, Valvo, Mazda, etc.




Now, volly, are you going to tell us the code on your "Miniwatt" or not? :confused_face_2:


----------



## nwavesailor

oskari said:


> Now, @volly, are you going to tell us the code on your "Miniwatt" or not?


 

 'All will be revealed'  (where and when it was produced) with the code.
  
 Those considering a PCC88 will know what to look for, no matter what the particular tube is branded..............


----------



## Letmebefrank

I know we shouldn't cross post but I just posted in the vali 2 main thread:
  
 Received my 6922EH today... WOW this is the tube sound I've been looking for! The bass extension is just amazing! Unbelievably smooth highs. Mids are present and clear as well. Sound stage is also very good. Much wider than the other two tubes I have. Its like a night and day difference between this tube and the 6CG7EH.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

Okay, I've committed to buy two tubes from eBay seller [COLOR=333333]we-252, who has very good feedback ratings. The first is a 1966 Amperex E188CC SQ with the delta code, and the other is a 1962 Siemens made/Telefunken branded PCC88. I'm just waiting to hear back from the seller on combining shipping and any possible discounts before I pay.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=333333]I'm also still watching a few more auctions, some Philips/Valvo, and some Telefunken. Not sure how many I'll end up getting, one or two more at the most if the price is right.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=333333]Thanks to everyone for their help, especially @nwavesailor
 and @Guidostrunk
[/COLOR]! I'll report back with my thoughts once I get the tubes.


----------



## nwavesailor

merrick said:


> Okay, I've committed to buy two tubes from eBay seller we-252, who has very good feedback ratings. The first is a 1966 Amperex SQ with the delta code, and the other is a 1962 Siemens made/Telefunken branded PCC88. I'm just waiting to hear back from the seller on combining shipping and any possible discounts before I pay.
> 
> I'm also still watching a few more auctions, some Philips/Valvo, and some Telefunken. Not sure how many I'll end up getting, one or two more at the most if the price is right.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for their help, especially @nwavesailor and @Guidostrunk! I'll report back with my thoughts once I get the tubes.


 

 Excellent Merrick!
  
*EDIT:It's good you snagged a Siemens and Amperex.You will likely prefer the sound of one or the other of these fine tubes. I keep being drawn back to the 1967 6922 PQ Amperex and it's a US (not Holland) production tube!*
  
 I've just come in from listening to a several Amperex tubes (1965, 7308 USN / CEP , 1967, 6922 PQ, & 6DJ8 'Holland') all 3 about the vinatge of your 1966 SQ and they (to my ears) sound GREAT! I am a big Amperex fan so I have a few versions.
  
 I think there is just a little more micro detail reveled in these tubes and the hard to pin down toe taping I find while listening to the Amperex tubes .
  
 Also trying Tung Sol and National Union round plate 6F8G's which sound VERY sweet too.
  
 I have a Tesla E88CC in route as well as the pair of 6J5G's (with adapter)...........hard to believe that these will unseat the Amperex 6DJ8 / 6922 / 7308 or 6F8G's but we'll see!


----------



## Tuneslover

tuneslover said:


> My parents purchased a stereo cabinet from Germany back in the late 1950's. It's a beautiful piece of wooden furniture with a lid that lifted up to reveal a large space with a record player in it and ample room to stack record albums. The front lower part of the cabinet folded out at a 45 degree angle exposing a glass panel listing a multitude of cities with radio stations throughout Germany and many parts of Europe. You could select a couple of FM bands as well as 3 short wave bands. This glass panel lights up with a bulb of some sort once it's opened to a certain point and if you half close it back up you get to see the electronics inside the unit. If I'm not mistaken I recall seeing quite a few tubes inside the cabinet. Around back I just need to unscrew 6-8 screws to remove the rear panel which should expose all of the electronics. It's probably been 40 or so years since it has been used so whatever tubes are in there may still be good. I have no idea what if any would work with my Vali 2. Next time I'm over at my parents place I'm going to have to check what kind of treasure trove I might be able to rouse from a long hibernation.


 
 So I went to my parents place and removed the rear panel off of their German stereo cabinet and discovered it contained 7 tubes.  All of them are VALVO tubes.  I know nothing about vacuum tubes so I have no idea whether they could even be used in my Vali 2.  I would appreciate if anyone out there has any knowledge about these tubes:
  
 EABC 80 (with lower stamp m42 D9K) top of tube is stamped with 900
 ECH 81 (with lower stamp YDC DOA) top of tube is stamped with 077, the inside of this tube has some sort of mesh around the guts of the tube.
 ECC 83 (no apparent visible lower stamp) top of tube is stamped with 164
 CC85 (with lower stamp...looks like a triangle, then OE) top of tube is stamped with 290
 EF89 (with lower stamp 1R2 DOH) top of tube is stamped with 134, the inside of this tube has some sort of mesh around the guts of the tube.
 EL84 (with lower stamp rX3 DO1), there are 2 of these tubes, one top is stamped with 044, the other one is 053
  
 I think I'll contact Schiit to see if they're familiar with any of these tubes and whether they could be used with the Vali 2.
  
 Kind of cool and exciting.


----------



## Designer79

oskari said:


> Yes. There is a later version at http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB-v10.pdf. Also note http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeList.pdf.
> You won't be seeing lots of 9s. You will be seeing plenty of those triangles.
> Entirely true.


 
  
 Yeah it seems the "9" stands for the Herleen research lab. The chances of ever seeing one of them prototype mystery tubes might be about as high as seeing the Area 51 alien(s) with your own eyes ...


----------



## volly

nwavesailor said:


> 'All will be revealed'  (where and when it was produced) with the code.
> 
> Those considering a PCC88 will know what to look for, no matter what the particular tube is branded..............


 
 Ok, help me out here guys because my eyes are not good.
  
 On the bottom of the tube, it reads "H" inside the pins and "15" or "16" between the pins. 
  
 Other inscriptions are, "DJ1" and underneath that reads "G1" on the side of the tube.
  
 Sorry for the late response guys!


----------



## Designer79

nwavesailor said:


> Excellent Merrick!
> 
> *EDIT:It's good you snagged a Siemens and Amperex.You will likely prefer the sound of one or the other of these fine tubes. *
> 
> ...


 
  
 I am looking forward to a comparison of the Tesla E88CC and the Amperex 6922 PQ, my next move might very well be anything E88CC/6922 that comes out of the Herleen factory. The prices on the web for most E188CC tubes still shock me too much, it's kinda strange rolling a tube in the Vali 2 that costs twice as much as the amp itself.


----------



## nwavesailor

volly said:


> Ok, help me out here guys because my eyes are not good.
> 
> On the bottom of the tube, it reads "H" inside the pins and "15" or "16" between the pins.
> 
> ...


 

 I'll have to get my decoder ring out............The 'D' could indicate Valvo, Hamburg production?
  
 Are these the tiny marks etched in the glass near the base of the tube, but on the side or printed on the tube in the same white lettering as on the tube (PCC88)?


----------



## Designer79

volly said:


> Ok, help me out here guys because my eyes are not good.
> 
> On the bottom of the tube, it reads "H" inside the pins and "15" or "16" between the pins.
> 
> ...


 
  
 So if its a tube from the early to mid 50's it's labelled after the "old code" system:

  
 Your code on the side of the tube give it away:
  
 So the DJ1 stands for type code "TT" = DJ and the Change Code "C" = 1, means your tube is a type designation "DJ" from a batch of either the year 1948 / 1949 / or 1950
 And now it gets really interesting: your G1 printed below stands for the factory "F" = G, so produced in the Mullard, Fleetwood factory and "M" = 1 is the month code: 1 confirms the year 1950, made in March ... All the data can be found in the code-sheet about Philips tubes I posted earlier.
  
 Wow, this tube hunting stuff is exciting.


----------



## Oskari

volly said:


> Ok, help me out here guys because my eyes are not good.
> 
> On the bottom of the tube, it reads "H" inside the pins and "15" or "16" between the pins.
> 
> ...





Well, DJ = PCC88. How about a photo of the side code? (There could be something missing.)


----------



## Designer79

oskari said:


> That is a Mullard if the "made in" is true. What's the etched code on it?


 
  
@Oskari's observation was spot on.


----------



## volly

Wow, just wow guys.

Really appreciate the feedback guys!

Tried taking photos but my camera just won't focus! 

Thanks designer79 and nwavesailor for the decryption. I literally have goose bumps lol. 

I also tried to make sense of the pdf but my brains ain't working today haha.

I will say this tube definitely fits the 'mullard' sound, which I'm loving right now!

Still a telefunken and seimens to come.


----------



## nwavesailor

oskari said:


> Well, DJ = PCC88. How about a photo of the side code? (There could be something missing.)


 

 Very good, we have several Sherlock Holmes tube (valve) detectives on the PCC88 case..........


----------



## Oskari

nwavesailor said:


> Very good, we have several Sherlock Holmes tube (valve) detectives on the PCC88 case..........




Well, yes, Fleetwood doesn't seem likely. G1 could be month+week but there should be factory+year in front of it.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

I ordered a NOVIB socket saver from Tube Monger. I figure it will make it easier to change tubes and help preserve the life of the socket in the amp. I also ordered an EH 6922 to use while I wait for the NOS tubes. It's $20 on Amazon and I'm a prime member so that seemed like a safe bet.


----------



## nwavesailor

merrick said:


> I ordered a NOVIB socket saver from Tube Monger. I figure it will make it easier to change tubes and help preserve the life of the socket in the amp. I also ordered an EH 6922 to use while I wait for the NOS tubes. It's $20 on Amazon and I'm a prime member so that seemed like a safe bet.


 

 Good deal, Merrick!
  
 I think you'll find the EH 6922 to be a pretty nice current production tube in the V 2.
  
 Putin must have made it a priority (or else!) to have Russia become the world leader in Vacuum tube technology!!!


----------



## nordkapp

nwavesailor said:


> Good deal, Merrick!
> 
> I think you'll find the EH 6922 to be a pretty nice current production tube in the V 2.
> 
> Putin must have made it a priority (or else!) to have Russia become the world leader in Vacuum tube technology!!!


Besides vodka, yes they make great tubes.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

Sounds like they don't have much competition these days. Telefunken is doing new production but I don't know if they're any good.


----------



## Skarecrow77

The end of the wait is in sight. Budget is tight as hell, but I got approved to work a bunch of OT over the next two weeks to fund my audio purchases... Getting a Vali 2 of course, but I'm torn between two different tube options here, either getting an Electro-harmonix 6922 and a National/Matsush!ta PCC88, or a lone Phillips PCC88. That's about all my budget is going to allow for now. I'm leaning towards the Phillips. This is my first experience with tubes and rolling. 
  
 I'll be using the vali 2 mostly with my NAD HP50s for the foreseeable future, maybe with some time on my wife's 600ohm DT880s just for the hell of it, although I have been somewhat eyeing a pair of HE-400s since returning to head-fi... 

 I've done a ton of reading here, and at tube sites on the web, but I'm still not sure. I don't need something SUPER warm since the HP50s already have great midrange, I am looking for clarity, separation, and overall sweetness. Anybody with some more tube experience care to provide some advice given my likely potential choices?


----------



## volly

skarecrow77 said:


> The end of the wait is in sight. Budget is tight as hell, but I got approved to work a bunch of OT over the next two weeks to fund my audio purchases... Getting a Vali 2 of course, but I'm torn between two different tube options here, either getting an Electro-harmonix 6922 and a National/Matsush!ta PCC88, or a lone Phillips PCC88. That's about all my budget is going to allow for now. I'm leaning towards the Phillips. This is my first experience with tubes and rolling.
> 
> I'll be using the vali 2 mostly with my NAD HP50s for the foreseeable future, maybe with some time on my wife's 600ohm DT880s just for the hell of it, although I have been somewhat eyeing a pair of HE-400s since returning to head-fi...
> 
> I've done a ton of reading here, and at tube sites on the web, but I'm still not sure. I don't need something SUPER warm since the HP50s already have great midrange, I am looking for clarity, separation, and overall sweetness. Anybody with some more tube experience care to provide some advice given my likely potential choices?


 
 I think all three tubes should be fine. You'll probably end up getting them all down the track.
  
 I'll be eyeing off the Matsu****a's soon!
  
 What Dac will you be running with the Vali2?


----------



## Skarecrow77

volly said:


> I think all three tubes should be fine. You'll probably end up getting them all down the track.
> 
> I'll be eyeing off the Matsu****a's soon!
> 
> What Dac will you be running with the Vali2?


 
  
 Probably. My opinion seems to sway back and forth every time somebody posts a glowing review of the phillips or the 6922EH.
  
 DAC is a Modi 2 (non uber). I was very happy with the Modi 2 coming from a 12-year-old E-mu 1212m soundcard... at least until my current amp gave up the ghost. I gotta imagine that the modi 2 and vali 2 pair pretty well together.


----------



## volly

skarecrow77 said:


> Probably. My opinion seems to sway back and forth every time somebody posts a glowing review of the phillips or the 6922EH.
> 
> DAC is a Modi 2 (non uber). I was very happy with the Modi 2 coming from a 12-year-old E-mu 1212m soundcard... at least until my current amp gave up the ghost. I gotta imagine that the modi 2 and vali 2 pair pretty well together.


 
 Oh nice, yeah the thought has crossed my mind to pair my Vali 2 with a Modi but I'm very content with my setup.
  
 Well, I think another tube has arrived, go to make a stop off at the Post Office for a package!
  
 BBL


----------



## volly

Ok, looks like my Telefunken 7Dj8 has come in all the way from Bulgaria.
  

  

  

  
 Investigate away lads!


----------



## Tuneslover

tuneslover said:


> So I went to my parents place and removed the rear panel off of their German stereo cabinet and discovered it contained 7 tubes.  All of them are VALVO tubes.  I know nothing about vacuum tubes so I have no idea whether they could even be used in my Vali 2.  I would appreciate if anyone out there has any knowledge about these tubes:
> 
> EABC 80 (with lower stamp m42 D9K) top of tube is stamped with 900
> ECH 81 (with lower stamp YDC DOA) top of tube is stamped with 077, the inside of this tube has some sort of mesh around the guts of the tube.
> ...




Nick from Schiit got back to me. He said none of these tubes are compatible with the V2. Too bad, oh well. Still no idea what these tubes are.


----------



## Designer79

tuneslover said:


> Nick from Schiit got back to me. He said none of these tubes are compatible with the V2. Too bad, oh well. Still no idea what these tubes are.


 
  
 These Valvo tubes are in fact also produced by Philips. So with a little research and the help of the Philips factory code guide, which you can find a link to 2 pages back, some of the tubes should be possible to identify.
  


oskari said:


> Yes. There is a later version at http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB-v10.pdf. Also note http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeList.pdf.


----------



## Tuneslover

designer79 said:


> These Valvo tubes are in fact also produced by Philips. So with a little research and the help of the Philips factory code guide, which you can find a link to 2 pages back, some of the tubes should be possible to identify.




Thanks. I contacted Jessee from Audiotubes.com and he also confirmed that these tubes would not work with the V2. He also explained that most of these tubes are for the HiFi's radio and the last tube (2 of them) I listed were for driving the units speakers.


----------



## Oskari

tuneslover said:


> CC85 (with lower stamp...looks like a triangle, then OE) top of tube is stamped with 290


 
  
 Is that ECC85? That might work.


----------



## Oskari

tuneslover said:


> He also explained that most of these tubes are for the HiFi's radio and the last tube (2 of them) I listed were for driving the units speakers.


 
  
 True. Euro type codes such as EABC80 contain quite a bit of information; see, e.g., https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullard–Philips_tube_designation.


----------



## Oskari

volly said:


>


 
  
 You can see the Telefunken "diamond" between the pins. The first letter of the printed side code tells the factory. U = Ulm, B = Berlin.


----------



## volly

Thank you Oskari!


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

I decided to cancel the EH6922. Nothing against it, I just figured I've spent enough on tube stuff recently, and the 6922 will be there if I really need it down the line.


----------



## nwavesailor

merrick said:


> I decided to cancel the EH6922. Nothing against it, I just figured I've spent enough on tube stuff recently, and the 6922 will be there if I really need it down the line.


 

 I think you'll really like either the Amperex or Seimens at any rate.
  
 There will always be EH 6922's out there if you want to try one for little $$$.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

Exactly, the EH isn't going anywhere.


----------



## Designer79

Sorry, double post!


----------



## Designer79

guidostrunk said:


> Valvo(Heerlen) E188CC, CCa, E88CC (Pinched waist 56to58). I'm also going to group the Philips Miniwatts E188CC in this category.
> I'm a huge fan of Heerlen , tubes. These are hands down the midrange KINGS!
> Folks, if you're into a seductive, immersive, full , rich , detailed sound. With all of the sonics that Siemens CCa has to offer. Don't hesitate to take the plunge. These tubes present music in the most natural way. They literally put you in a live venue. To my ears , these are the most holographic, tubes I've ever heard. Your body is literally running interference with the notes.


 
  
 Does this description also apply to the Philips Miniwatt tubes out of the Heerlen factory from the "lesser" PCC88 / E88CC grade? I have Beyerdynamic T90 headphones that are very detail retreiving and Id love to get that lush midrange / holographic sound stage experience! Got a "Delta" coded Philips Miniwatt on the radar for quite a reasonable price ...


----------



## nwavesailor

designer79 said:


> I have a Philips Miniwatt PCC88 / E88CC on my radar, the delta in the factory code tells me it is a Heerlen made one. Does the lush, holographic midrange also apply to the "lesser" E88CC series? My Beyerdynamic T90 is very detail retreiving, and I'd love to have this immersive midrange and soundstage


 

  
 Here is Brent Jesse's write up on the E88CC tube whatever it is branded!


----------



## Designer79

nwavesailor said:


> Here is Brent Jesse's write up on the E88CC tube whatever it is branded!


 
  
 Thanks @nwavesailor, I have this feeling in my guts, that they might not be that big an improvement over the recently aquired Tesla E88CC, but I think I'll pull the trigger on the Philips Miniwatt anyway. Might even confirm the theory that the Teslas are the best bang for the buck in this category. I'll report my impressions.


----------



## nwavesailor

designer79 said:


> Does this description also apply to the Philips Miniwatt tubes out of the Heerlen factory from the "lesser" PCC88 / E88CC grade? I have Beyerdynamic T90 headphones that are very detail retreiving and Id love to get that lush midrange / holographic sound stage experience! Got a "Delta" coded Philips Miniwatt on the radar for quite a reasonable price ...


 

 And Brett Jesse on the PCC88


----------



## nwavesailor

I'm a BIG fan of the Amperex 6DJ8 / 6922 / 7308!
  
 I have been going back and forth between The Amperex (various versions), 6F8G (w/ adapter), Tunsgram PCC88 and EH 6922. I am looking for more detail and bass as I am using HifiMan 400S. I find more of both in the Amperex (but not harsh brightness!) and the EH 6922. The 6F8G need 600mA of current and that is the max for the V 2 so I may not be getting what I could from that tube with this amp. It sounds very nice, but I keep going back to the Amperex tubes. The PCC88 is juat a little tame for me and using hp that are already a bit rolled off not what I am looking for at least in the Tungsram variety.
  
 If the '32' Tesla I have in route isn't great, it will likely go back on E-Bay!


----------



## Designer79

Hey @nwavesailor,
  
 Seeing that you are coming from the Amperex / Philips route TO the Tesla, I am very curious to hear about your impressions. I can only compare the Tesla to the stock tube as already reported, but in my opinion it's very good, very musical and accurate.


----------



## Designer79

volly said:


> I'm still here mate.
> 
> I'm waiting on my telefunken and prrhaps another seimens.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey @volly, kinda got inspired by your post. A made in Holland (Heerlen) Philips Miniwatt 7dj8 / PCC88 is on the way to it's new home in my Vali 2. Hope it's as synergetic with my Beyerdynamic T90


----------



## nwavesailor

designer79 said:


> Hey @nwavesailor,
> 
> Seeing that you are coming from the Amperex / Philips route TO the Tesla, I am very curious to hear about your impressions. I can only compare the Tesla to the stock tube as already reported, but in my opinion it's very good, very musical and accurate.


 

 I haven't received the Tesla '32' as this point. Hard to say what time shipping from Bulgaria to the US should take........I'm guessing weeks but we'll see.
  
 The Philps / Amperex are really nice and if the Tesla is better, GREAT. Just tested a bunch (25 +/-) Amperex 6DJ8 / 6922 / 7308 and all are very  close plate to plate.Only one with a short


----------



## volly

designer79 said:


> Hey @volly, kinda got inspired by your post. A made in Holland (Heerlen) Philips Miniwatt 7dj8 / PCC88 is on the way to it's new home in my Vali 2. Hope it's as synergetic with my Beyerdynamic T90


 
 Good luck buddy! 
  
 I've never heard a Beyer let alone the T90 but I would imagine that the Vali2 + Philips Miniwatt 7dj8 could be a delicious cocktail!
  
 How would you describe the sound of the T90? Detailed, perhaps a bit bright on top? Maybe a tube like a Philips/Mullard could a real preference for you!
  
 What's your preferred sound signature mate?
  
 Very, very tempted to roll in the Telefunken but I respect this Philips tube SO much! :O (Telefunken is calling for me, must resist!)


----------



## volly

nwavesailor said:


> I haven't received the Tesla '32' as this point. Hard to say what time shipping from Bulgaria to the US should take........I'm guessing weeks but we'll see.
> 
> The Philps / Amperex are really nice and if the Tesla is better, GREAT. Just tested a bunch (25 +/-) Amperex 6DJ8 / 6922 / 7308 and all are very  close plate to plate.Only one with a short


 
 I ordered a Telefunken 7dj8 from Bulgaria and it got here (Australia) within a week! Was very impressed with the delivery time! :O


----------



## Designer79

volly said:


> Good luck buddy!
> 
> I've never heard a Beyer let alone the T90 but I would imagine that the Vali2 + Philips Miniwatt 7dj8 could be a delicious cocktail!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, Beyerdynamic's Tesla models are known for a very detailed sound, very analytical, but also a bit infamous for treble peak. The T70 especially so. The T90 is better in this regard but still Beyerdynamic tuned = treble'ish'. I hope that he Philips Miniwatt is focused on midrange with a tendency to tame the treble range. My recently aquired Tesla E88CC goldpin is doing a great job in this regard, but I couldn't resist to "go Dutch". Basically the PCC88 is the 7V version of the ECC88 = 6DJ8. The 6DJ8 grade is considered to be a level of quality lower than the E88CC = 6922 grade, so I am a bit worried that it might have a narrowing effect on the sound stage. Well, I'll see (hear) next week ...
  
 Cheers


----------



## volly

designer79 said:


> Yes, Beyerdynamic's Tesla models are known for a very detailed sound, very analytical, but also a bit infamous for treble peaks. The T70 especially so. The T90 is better in this regard but still Beyerdynamic tuned = treble'ish'. I hope that he Philips Miniwatt is focused on midrange with a tendency to tame the treble range. My recently aquired Tesla E88CC goldpin is doing a great job in this regard, but I couldn't resist to "go Dutch".
> 
> Cheers


 
 Hahaha, yes the Dutch! Dutch is GOOD!
  
 Yeah...Comparing the Philips to the stock tube, I find the mid range is the biggest improvement followed by the lower range frequencies, the high's on the X2's are very pleasant to my ears but I feel the Vali 2 just presents it better than my old Asgard 2. Plenty of detail, airy and ambient, with a lovely expanse in the sound stage!
  
 I'm listening to Eric Clapton's "Pilgrim" album at the moment and it just sounds SO lovely every time with this combo! I always end up listening to the whole album, but luckily I have some time to myself this morning.


----------



## bboris77

Ok guys, I received my NOS Tesla E88CC made in former Czechoslovakia in the 1970s. I popped it in 2 hours ago and waited for it to warm up a bit. Listening to it right now and I am speechless. I am new to this tube rolling game so I was just a little bit skeptical about how much difference in terms of sound quality a tube can make. I was expecting a mild improvement because I was already really happy with the stock tube sound (NOS GE). Well, the improvement has been mind-blowing to say the least. The major change is that the midrange got a healthy dose of smoothness and lushness to it alongside a general improvement in the bass definition. This in turn made everything sound more natural and realistic. The stock tube sounds good but a little more dry and clinical in comparison. In conclusion, I would say that the Vali 2 scales really well with better quality tubes and these Teslas significantly improve its sound quality and make it sound more like a tube amp. I would HIGHLY recommend this tube. I also received the Electro Harmonix 6922 but it will take me a while to try it considering how much I am enjoying this Czech wonder. Ooops, Czechoslovakian I should say


----------



## Guidostrunk

In my rolling experience with E88CC/6922. They didn't quite have the depth of holography that the E188CC have, nor the imaging. E188CC/7308 & CCa to my ears are leaps and bounds more 3D. It's like a cardboard cutout image in front of you, vs notes imaging out of blackness , all around you. The extension of individual notes from E188CC/7308/CCa is insane! I truly believe it's all due to the tighter triode matching specifications, and extremely low noise and microphonics. Those tubes were selected for the Military, Post office, and telecommunications , for those reasons. Of course these are my opinions. YMMV. I always recommend that people should buy and compare if possible. 

Cheers


designer79 said:


> Does this description also apply to the Philips Miniwatt tubes out of the Heerlen factory from the "lesser" PCC88 / E88CC grade? I have Beyerdynamic T90 headphones that are very detail retreiving and Id love to get that lush midrange / holographic sound stage experience! Got a "Delta" coded Philips Miniwatt on the radar for quite a reasonable price ...


----------



## volly

bboris77 said:


> Ok guys, I received my NOS Tesla E88CC made in former Czechoslovakia in the 1970s. I popped it in 2 hours ago and waited for it to warm up a bit. Listening to it right now and I am speechless. I am new to this tube rolling game so I was just a little bit skeptical about how much difference in terms of sound quality a tube can make. I was expecting a mild improvement because I was already really happy with the stock tube sound (NOS GE). Well, the improvement has been mind-blowing to say the least. The major change is that the midrange got a healthy dose of smoothness and lushness to it alongside a general improvement in the bass definition. This in turn made everything sound more natural and realistic. The stock tube sounds good but a little more dry and clinical in comparison. In conclusion, I would say that the Vali 2 scales really well with better quality tubes and these Teslas significantly improve its sound quality and make it sound more like a tube amp. I would HIGHLY recommend this tube. I also received the Electro Harmonix 6922 but it will take me a while to try it considering how much I am enjoying this Czech wonder. Ooops, Czechoslovakian I should say


 
 We have a convert here peoples!  
  
 Enjoy!


----------



## nwavesailor

bboris77 said:


> Ok guys, I received my NOS Tesla E88CC made in former Czechoslovakia in the 1970s. I popped it in 2 hours ago and waited for it to warm up a bit. Listening to it right now and I am speechless. I am new to this tube rolling game so I was just a little bit skeptical about how much difference in terms of sound quality a tube can make. I was expecting a mild improvement because I was already really happy with the stock tube sound (NOS GE). Well, the improvement has been mind-blowing to say the least. The major change is that the midrange got a healthy dose of smoothness and lushness to it alongside a general improvement in the bass definition. This in turn made everything sound more natural and realistic. The stock tube sounds good but a little more dry and clinical in comparison. In conclusion, I would say that the Vali 2 scales really well with better quality tubes and these Teslas significantly improve its sound quality and make it sound more like a tube amp. I would HIGHLY recommend this tube. I also received the Electro Harmonix 6922 but it will take me a while to try it considering how much I am enjoying this Czech wonder. Ooops, Czechoslovakian I should say


 

 COOL!!!
 I also have a Tesla E88CC from the 1970's in route.
 We'll be waiting to hear what you think about the EH 6922 compared to the Tesla. I'd have a hard time waiting to do an A/B of 2 new tubes.
 For the very little money the EH 6922 costs, it's a deal and nice step up from the stock tube. Hopefully the Tesla is even better.


----------



## Designer79

volly said:


> We have a convert here peoples!
> 
> Enjoy!


 

 +1
  
 Yeah this tube performs very, very well. So far the price to performance ratio of he Tesla E88CC can't be beaten, gonna roll some more expensive tubes though to be able to make a more qualified statement. E188CC's are tempting according to @Guidostrunk's description ...
  
@bboris77, enjoy rediscovering your music!


----------



## bboris77

nwavesailor said:


> COOL!!!
> I also have a Tesla E88CC from the 1970's in route.
> We'll be waiting to hear what you think about the EH 6922 compared to the Tesla. I'd have a hard time waiting to do an A/B of 2 new tubes.
> For the very little money the EH 6922 costs, it's a deal and nice step up from the stock tube. Hopefully the Tesla is even better.


 
 Ok, so I popped in the EH 6922 and here is my opinion after a couple of hours. It is definitely more forward sounding than the Tesla E88CC. There is more emphasis on the treble so initially it appears more detailed in comparison to the Tesla and the stock tube. However, it is missing the overall warmth and the slam factor that the Tesla brings to the table. EH 6922 still has a very solid low end compared to the stock tube, but the Tesla is an absolute monster when it comes to the bass which gives the mids a wonderful foundation. When it comes to the stock tube, I sincerely could not hear any sounds below 30hz whereas both the EH 6922 and the Tesla can easily resolve 20Hz, with the Tesla being significantly more pronounced in the low end. 
  
 Out of the three, I would definitely pick the Tesla, but at this point it gets subjective as you have to hear how these tubes integrate with the rest of your gear. For example, the Tesla pairs wonderfully with my Q701 as it brings its low end alive.
  
 In conclusion, I would say that the EH 6922 is like a technically better version of the stock tube as they have somewhat similar sound signatures, with the Electro-Harmonix being the better sounding one. It resolves more detail across the spectrum and expands the low end. The Tesla does all this but in a very natural sounding way with lots of warmth and oomph which sets it apart from the group at least to my ears.


----------



## nwavesailor

bboris77 said:


> Ok, so I popped in the EH 6922 and here is my opinion after a couple of hours. It is definitely more forward sounding than the Tesla E88CC. There is more emphasis on the treble so initially it appears more detailed in comparison to the Tesla and the stock tube. However, it is missing the overall warmth and the slam factor that the Tesla brings to the table. EH 6922 still has a very solid low end compared to the stock tube, but the Tesla is an absolute monster when it comes to the bass which gives the mids a wonderful foundation. When it comes to the stock tube, I sincerely could not hear any sounds below 20hz whereas both the EH 6922 and the Tesla can easily resolve 10Hz, with the Tesla being significantly more pronounced in the low end.
> 
> Out of the three, I would definitely pick the Tesla, but at this point it gets subjective as you have to hear how these tubes integrate with the rest of your gear. For example, the Tesla pairs wonderfully with my Q701 as it brings its low end alive.
> 
> In conclusion, I would say that the EH 6922 is like a technically better version of the stock tube as they have somewhat similar sound signatures, with the Electro-Harmonix being the better sounding one. It resolves more detail across the spectrum and expands the low end. The Tesla does all this but in a very natural sounding way with lots of warmth and oomph which sets it apart from the group at least to my ears.


 

 Thank you bboris77 for your impressions of these 2, (3 including the stock) tubes  back to back. Looking forward to my Tesla arriving.
  
 Perhaps the Bulgarian Postal service have handed it off to the Pony Express here in the states and I will see it soon............


----------



## HOWIE13

nwavesailor said:


> Thank you bboris77 for your impressions of these 2, (3 including the stock) tubes  back to back. Looking forward to my Tesla arriving.
> 
> Perhaps the Bulgarian Postal service have handed it off to the Pony Express here in the states and I will see it soon............


 
 WRONG POST


----------



## HOWIE13

bboris77 said:


> Ok, so I popped in the EH 6922 and here is my opinion after a couple of hours. It is definitely more forward sounding than the Tesla E88CC. There is more emphasis on the treble so initially it appears more detailed in comparison to the Tesla and the stock tube. However, it is missing the overall warmth and the slam factor that the Tesla brings to the table. EH 6922 still has a very solid low end compared to the stock tube, but the Tesla is an absolute monster when it comes to the bass which gives the mids a wonderful foundation. When it comes to the stock tube, I sincerely could not hear any sounds below 20hz whereas both the EH 6922 and the Tesla can easily resolve 10Hz, with the Tesla being significantly more pronounced in the low end.
> 
> Out of the three, I would definitely pick the Tesla, but at this point it gets subjective as you have to hear how these tubes integrate with the rest of your gear. For example, the Tesla pairs wonderfully with my Q701 as it brings its low end alive.
> 
> In conclusion, I would say that the EH 6922 is like a technically better version of the stock tube as they have somewhat similar sound signatures, with the Electro-Harmonix being the better sounding one. It resolves more detail across the spectrum and expands the low end. The Tesla does all this but in a very natural sounding way with lots of warmth and oomph which sets it apart from the group at least to my ears.


 
 Are you sure you can resolve bass as low as 10Hz?
 I didn't think the human ear could clearly hear that low.


----------



## bboris77

howie13 said:


> Are you sure you can resolve bass as low as 10Hz?
> I didn't think the human ear could clearly hear that low.


 
 You are absolutely correct. I double checked the test that I had used which is on this web page:
http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencychecklow.php
  
 It seems that there is an issue with this test since when after the announcer says: "10Hz", the sound that is actually played is 20Hz. I confirmed this by going to this page and playing various tones:
http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_subwooferharmonicdistortion.php
  
 However, since I used the same test on the stock GE tube, both the Tesla and the EH 6922 seem to have an advantage over it since they are able to reproduce the 20Hz tone.


----------



## HOWIE13

bboris77 said:


> You are absolutely correct. I double checked the test that I had used which is on this web page:
> http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencychecklow.php
> 
> It seems that there is an issue with this test since when after the announcer says: "10Hz", the sound that is actually played is 20Hz. I confirmed this by going to this page and playing various tones:
> ...


 
 Fair enough.


----------



## Tuneslover

I have the Sylvania stock tube and I was wondering if there is much a difference between it and the stock GE tube, not sure if anyone has both.  I ordered an extra stock tube with my V2 and probably should have specified to not send me the same tubes.  For what it's worth the stock Sylvania tube sounds quite respectable but more restrained in comparison to the JJ E88CC and EH6922 tubes.


----------



## Currawong

nwavesailor said:


> I'm a BIG fan of the Amperex 6DJ8 / 6922 / 7308!
> 
> I have been going back and forth between The Amperex (various versions), 6F8G (w/ adapter), Tunsgram PCC88 and EH 6922. I am looking for more detail and bass as I am using HifiMan 400S. I find more of both in the Amperex (but not harsh brightness!) and the EH 6922. The 6F8G need 600mA of current and that is the max for the V 2 so I may not be getting what I could from that tube with this amp. It sounds very nice, but I keep going back to the Amperex tubes. The PCC88 is juat a little tame for me and using hp that are already a bit rolled off not what I am looking for at least in the Tungsram variety.
> 
> If the '32' Tesla I have in route isn't great, it will likely go back on E-Bay!


 
  
 I'm in agreement with this. I played a bit with the 6SN7s I had here. I'm listening right now with a Tung Sol/Emerson which has a bit of lushness but I don't feel I'm getting any serious benefit over the Amperex PQ which has a better presentation through all frequencies in spaciousness, dynamics and delivery of frequencies at both extremes.
  


tuneslover said:


> I have the Sylvania stock tube and I was wondering if there is much a difference between it and the stock GE tube, not sure if anyone has both.  I ordered an extra stock tube with my V2 and probably should have specified to not send me the same tubes.  For what it's worth the stock Sylvania tube sounds quite respectable but more restrained in comparison to the JJ E88CC and EH6922 tubes.


 
  
 I don't know if it would be true of those tubes, but I've not been a fan of Sylvania tubes in general. They tend to sound rather boring.


----------



## bboris77

designer79 said:


> +1
> 
> Yeah this tube performs very, very well. So far the price to performance ratio of he Tesla E88CC can't be beaten, gonna roll some more expensive tubes though to be able to make a more qualified statement. E188CC's are tempting according to @Guidostrunk's description ...
> 
> @bboris77, enjoy rediscovering your music!


 
 Thank you, and it is absolutely true about rediscovering your music - I am really enjoying the Vali 2, Tesla E88CC and Q701 combo. It cannot stress enough how well this tube complements the Q701. It literally went from a 7 out of 10 headphone to a 9 out of 10. The Tesla warmed up and solidified the low end of the Q701 just enough to make it sound essentially perfect to my ears.


----------



## masterwu

tuneslover said:


> I have the Sylvania stock tube and I was wondering if there is much a difference between it and the stock GE tube, not sure if anyone has both.  I ordered an extra stock tube with my V2 and probably should have specified to not send me the same tubes.  For what it's worth the stock Sylvania tube sounds quite respectable but more restrained in comparison to the JJ E88CC and EH6922 tubes.


 
  
 i have all three of these tubes - the sylvania stock tube, JJ E88CC and the EH6922 - also the EH 6CG7 - initially the 6CG7 is a bit loose in the treble (distortion?) - the 6922 sounded, at least initally, like the JJ and the sylvania.  but the more i listened to 6922 - after maybe 10 hour (not straight 10 hours) listening the treble started getting loose like the 6CG7 - it's not that it's bad - i would say it is interesting.
  
 the JJ and the Sylvania sounded more alike than not - however i THINK i prefer the JJ over the sylvania and over the EHs.


----------



## Tuneslover

masterwu said:


> i have all three of these tubes - the sylvania stock tube, JJ E88CC and the EH6922 - also the EH 6CG7 - initially the 6CG7 is a bit loose in the treble (distortion?) - the 6922 sounded, at least initally, like the JJ and the sylvania.  but the more i listened to 6922 - after maybe 10 hour (not straight 10 hours) listening the treble started getting loose like the 6CG7 - it's not that it's bad - i would say it is interesting.
> 
> the JJ and the Sylvania sounded more alike than not - however i THINK i prefer the JJ over the sylvania and over the EHs.




Your assessment of these tubes is precisely the way I hear them too. I enjoy swapping tubes when I come across a song that is dynamically engaging to really hear the different tube signatures. All said I'm completely satisfied with this small assortment of tubes as they cover all of my main headphones unique characteristics nicely. Enjoy.


----------



## Designer79

More tubes on the way ... Bought another Tesla E88CC goldpin, yellow print label, factory code "32". I thought having a backup surely isn't a bad idea, considering demand will rise massively thanks to this thread  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . 
  
 Together with the Tesla I ordered a real specialty, a Valvo E88CC made by Radiotechnique France. It's gonna be interesting to compare the Valvo (basically a Philips tube) in the higher E88CC quality, with the lower grade Philips Miniwatt PCC88 (7DJ8) that was made in the Dutch Heerlen factory.
 I still didn't want to pull the trigger on a good E188CC tube. I would consider ordering a Heerlen made E188CC Valvo Red label or E188CC Philips SQ, if the Dutch tonality turns out to be a good match with the Beyer T90's. But, they are really $$$$$ !!
  
@Guidostrunk, your input would really be appreciated, you seem to have lots of knowledge about these E188CC's. Do you own Beyerdynamic Tesla headphones, or other treble happy cans? Have you tried some Mullards?


----------



## sheldaze

Pardon me if I repeat - I've been offline for a while from the perspective of replacing a DAC (sold my Grace Design m9XX, bought Bifrost 4399 that needed upgraded 4490 board, snow storm, etc). So the Schiit stack I'm using is Bifrost 4490 > Sys > Asgard 2 (baseline) and Vali 2 (tubes). The solid-state amplifier allows me to keep a baseline reference point that can run all my headphones.
  
 A while back, I acquired my very first, very cheap RCA 6CG7 - paid $5 for it. On my HD800 headphones, this was a significant upgrade over the original tube. But due to the random nature of the purchase, I decided to buy a triode-matched EH 6CG7 tube to test later. Using the same HD800, I still like the upgrade versus the original tube. However, on my other headphones, Grado SR60i, AKG K7XX, and HiFiMan HE400i, I had no issues with the original tube. I wanted to first verify that I liked the EH 6CG7 as well on these headphones, which I would more commonly use.
  
 So this morning, using HE400i, I picked a test track, with a diverse collection of music - acoustic (one of the groups I actually went to see live), orchestral, electronic. Some of the electronic can become fatiguing - in the middle of track #4, Circuit Breaker by Röyksopp, I'd had enough. In my opinion, the original RCA 6CG7 sounded remarkably similar to the EH 6CG7. The tube, my favorite to this point - opened up the soundstage a little more than the stock, but was starting to tire me on what I think is a fairly balanced headphone. Instead of switching back to the original tube, I tried next EH 6922, which I bought from the same company and asked to be verified triode-balanced. The stage shrank a little, but I flew through the same track with no issues on the HE400i. I'm still listening to my mix of music as I write this.
  
 TL;DR 6CG7 opens up the sound a lot, but fatigues me thus far on my less than ideal music. 6922 (someone recommended it a while ago) restricts the sound versus the 6CG7, but is much more palatable. 6922 seems like a good balance - not syrupy like the Mullard was I first tried. I'll need to continue trying different headphones with 6922 before going back to the original tube to compare 6922 and original.


----------



## Guidostrunk

PM @billerb1 . He has all the info on the Beyer/Heerlen combo. He's the reason why I'm hooked on Heerlen , tubes. His stash of tubes says it all. Lol. 
I'll get him to chime in with his thoughts. Especially to answer your question in regards to Beyers. 

Cheers


designer79 said:


> More tubes on the way ... Bought another Tesla E88CC goldpin, yellow print label, factory code "32". I thought having a backup surely isn't a bad idea, considering demand will rise massively thanks to this thread  :wink_face:  .
> 
> Together with the Tesla I ordered a real specialty, a Valvo E88CC made by Radiotechnique France. It's gonna be interesting to compare the Valvo (basically a Philips tube) in the higher E88CC quality, with the lower grade Philips Miniwatt PCC88 (7DJ8) that was made in the Dutch Heerlen factory.
> I still didn't want to pull the trigger on a good E188CC tube. I would consider ordering a Heerlen made E188CC Valvo Red label or E188CC Philips SQ, if the Dutch tonality turns out to be a good match with the Beyer T90's. But, they are really $$$$$ !!
> ...


----------



## Designer79

guidostrunk said:


> PM @billerb1 . He has all the info on the Beyer/Heerlen combo. He's the reason why I'm hooked on Heerlen , tubes. His stash of tubes says it all. Lol.
> I'll get him to chime in with his thoughts. Especially to answer your question in regards to Beyers.
> 
> Cheers


 

 Thank you very much, much appreciated! Looking forward to my first impression with a Heerlen tube next week. The Philips Miniwatt PCC88 should be arriving on Wednesday.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Can't wait to hear your thoughts bro! 


designer79 said:


> Thank you very much, much appreciated! Looking forward to my first impression with a Heerlen tube next week. The Philips Miniwatt PCC88 should be arriving on Wednesday.


----------



## nwavesailor

designer79 said:


> Thank you very much, much appreciated! Looking forward to my first impression with a Heerlen tube next week. The Philips Miniwatt PCC88 should be arriving on Wednesday.


 

 You're preaching to the choir regarding Philips (Amperex) tubes house sound, I love all I have tried in the V2. The Tesla E88CC will likely come this week and I'll be anxious to send it into the ring for a battle against the Amperex(s)!
  
 Then there will be a face off with a pair of 6J5G's....when the tubes arrive from France and adapter from China.


----------



## Designer79

Quote:


nwavesailor said:


> You're preaching to the choir regarding Philips (Amperex) tubes house sound, I love all I have tried in the V2. The Tesla E88CC will likely come this week and I'll be anxious to send it into the ring for a battle against the Amperex(s)!
> 
> Then there will be a face off with a pair of 6J5G's....when the tubes arrive from France and adapter from China.


 
  
 Fellow believers, thee shall not condemn me ... It's just pure, naive excitement in regards of the imminent salvation through Philips' sonic goodness


----------



## RoninChaos

Are any of you guys using socket savers? Do you use one or two? I know these things put off a LOT of heat and I'm hoping to dissipate some without having **** looking ridiculous. Suggestions?


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

I got a nice haul of tubes in the mail.
  
 In addition to the 1966 Amperex E18CC and 1962 Siemens PCC88 I ordered from ebay, @Guidostrunk was kind enough to sell me the following tubes:
  
 1966 Siemens E288CC(gold pin)
 1965 Valvo E288CC(gold pin)
 1957 Valvo PCC88(Heerlen) D-getter.
 1964 Mullard Blackburn PCC189
 1974 Mullard Blackburn PCC189
  
 They all arrived today. Since I need to leave feedback on the ebay tubes, I'm trying them first.
  
 I decided to go with the 1966 Amperex first, as I've been hearing nothing but great things about the Herleen sound (this Amperex has a delta code on it).
  
 With only a few minutes in the Vali 2, already I can hear a _tremendous_ improvement over the stock tube. The soundstage width and depth is tremendous. Imaging is much, much better. I can really feel the space between the musicians.
  
 The tonality is also much better. This reminds me of listening to a good vinyl rig. Strings have a lushness to them that the stock tube completely lacks. Plankton retrieval is also improved. I'm hearing more details more easily.
  
 I'm very curious to try out the other tubes now to see how they compare, but at the moment I can't break myself away from this one!
  
 For a small inexpensive amp, the Vali 2 really packs a big punch!


----------



## volly

merrick said:


> I got a nice haul of tubes in the mail.
> 
> In addition to the 1966 Amperex E18CC and 1962 Siemens PCC88 I ordered from ebay, @Guidostrunk
> was kind enough to sell me the following tubes:
> ...



That's tube heaven right there!

Enjoy mate!


----------



## Designer79

volly said:


> That's tube heaven right there!
> 
> Enjoy mate!


 
  
 Yeah the Valvos and the Amperex are about as good as it gets !! A bit jealous tbh  Time to start roaming the secret backrooms of local specialty hifi stores for inventory not announced on your common e-shopping platforms.


----------



## nwavesailor

designer79 said:


> Fellow believers, thee shall not condemn me ... It's just pure, naive excitement in regards of the imminent salvation through Philips' sonic goodness


 

 "My Brothers...........put your hand on the amplifier......can ya FEEL the sweet sounding power of the Amperex / Philips family of tubes???"
  
 Can I get an AMEN............
  
 Brother Merrick...........I KNOW  you're now feeling it!!! The good Reverand Guidostruck is singing the glorious praises of Heerlen and we are hearing what he's been preaching!


----------



## volly

It's fever man!

But seriously, the vali2 gives me the sound that I wanted in the first place.


----------



## nwavesailor

volly said:


> It's fever man!
> 
> But seriously, the vali2 gives me the sound that I wanted in the first place.


 

  At US $169 it's quite remarkable AND it's not made in China!


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

Trying out the Siemens PCC88 so I can leave eBay feedback promptly. This one may benefit from some more burn in, because right now the soundstage is smaller and the overall feeling of the tube is drier, if that makes sense. The low end is more pronounced, this tube feels more in your face, bringing out the energy of the songs. The Amperex is more lush and laid back. At the moment I'm preferring the Amperex, but the Siemens has its own positive attributes. Both are an improvement over the stock tube.


----------



## volly

merrick said:


> Trying out the Siemens PCC88 so I can leave eBay feedback promptly. This one may benefit from some more burn in, because right now the soundstage is smaller and the overall feeling of the tube is drier, if that makes sense. The low end is more pronounced, this tube feels more in your face, bringing out the energy of the songs. The Amperex is more lush and laid back. At the moment I'm preferring the Amperex, but the Siemens has its own positive attributes. Both are an improvement over the stock tube.



That sounds about right. Some say the german tubes don't have the warmth of the other euro tubes but more accurate and precise. I'd give the tube at least a few days straight before making a decision. I have a seimens on the way as well. 

What headphones you using?


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

volly said:


> That sounds about right. Some say the german tubes don't have the warmth of the other euro tubes but more accurate and precise. I'd give the tube at least a few days straight before making a decision. I have a seimens on the way as well.
> 
> What headphones you using?


 

 Yes, I'd say these do feel more accurate and precise, at the expense of being less euphonic. I think there's a place for both tubes. I guess this is how people end up being lifelong tube rollers.
  
 I'm using a Dyanamat modded HD600 and my source is a Geek Out V2.


----------



## volly

Oh yeah. I have the hd600 but my x2's are my daily drivers. 

I'd say that the hd600's would benefit more from a warmer tube if you're after a more pleasing listening session. Oddly enough, so does the x2's.

Also your dac will be of a sabre nature?! Which probably has mostly balanced sound except for each ends of the frequency? !


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

The Geek Out is just a temporary source until I can afford a Gungnir Multibit.


----------



## volly

merrick said:


> The Geek Out is just a temporary source until I can afford a Gungnir Multibit.



Haha...sorry for your wallet. Gungnir mb would be sweet!


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

My wallet is subservient to my ears!


----------



## Capt369

merrick said:


> My wallet is subservient to my ears!


 

 Well said and it`s something most of us can relate too.


----------



## Montecristo

I'm afraid to get into this because I feel like it's just another money sink hole lol. Not in a bad way.....but I am afraid of the addiction D:


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

Well, darn it, despite the Amperex's great sound, I'm hearing some microphonics and noise from time to time. It's not constant or even frequent, but it's very noticeable when it does happen and is enough to take me right out of the music. Maybe the novib will help. If not, I'll check the Herleen PCC88 and see how that compares.


----------



## a44100Hz

merrick said:


> Well, darn it, despite the Amperex's great sound, I'm hearing some microphonics and noise from time to time. It's not constant or even frequent, but it's very noticeable when it does happen and is enough to take me right out of the music. Maybe the novib will help. If not, I'll check the Herleen PCC88 and see how that compares.


 

 Have you tried cleaning the pins? I'm not actually sure if that would help, but a bugle boy tube I had sounded weird at first and sounded better after I scrubbed the pins with some isopropyl alcohol.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

a44100hz said:


> Have you tried cleaning the pins? I'm not actually sure if that would help, but a tube I had that sounded weird at first sounded normal after I scrubbed the pins with some isopropyl alcohol.


 
 I have some 91% iso, I could try that.


----------



## a44100Hz

merrick said:


> I have some 91% iso, I could try that.




Old toothbrush did the trick


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

Thanks, I will try that soon.


----------



## nwavesailor

merrick said:


> Thanks, I will try that soon.


 

 With the big batch of fantastic 'new' tubes you received today, you will no doubt find some that are quiet.
  
 Most tubes are microphonic to some degree. It's just HOW microphonic any given tube is. I can live with microphonic tubes, but NOT noisy tubes!


----------



## volly

merrick said:


> Well, darn it, despite the Amperex's great sound, I'm hearing some microphonics and noise from time to time. It's not constant or even frequent, but it's very noticeable when it does happen and is enough to take me right out of the music. Maybe the novib will help. If not, I'll check the Herleen PCC88 and see how that compares.



could it be the recordings merrick?! Does it happen without anything playing?


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

volly said:


> could it be the recordings merrick?! Does it happen without anything playing?




It can't be the recordings because I've listened to some of these recordings hundreds of times and I know I'm hearing noise being introduced from outside the recording.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

a44100hz said:


> Have you tried cleaning the pins? I'm not actually sure if that would help, but a bugle boy tube I had sounded weird at first and sounded better after I scrubbed the pins with some isopropyl alcohol.




I tried this, even down to using an old toothbrush. Popped the tube back in the Vali and so far no noise. I'll have to listen more before I'm confident that was the solution, but so far so good!


----------



## JennifersYummie

*Why do the spectrograms of a SS amp and a Tube amp look the same?*
  
 Hi everyone.  I love my *Vali 2 *!  I love the way the tube glows and it just looks so regal on my desk.  I put the amp in italics and purple (as a sign of reverence) because I like it so much!  I like the idea of changing the tubes and seeing what happens.
  
 A small problem though.  I can't tell the difference between Tubes and Solid State.  Maybe my ears are bad?  I have good HE400i headphones so I don't think that's the problem.  I keep my ears clean (thanks mom!).  I've been listening to some soundtracks (FLAC), some streaming (320 kbps), and stuff by those people with the white wigs a long time ago.  They all sound the same to me.  So I had fun and made some pretty pictures to delve into this.
  
 What I did:
  
*1.*  I used Audacity to generate 30 seconds of White Noise.  I saved this into a FLAC file which I then transferred to my Fiio X1.
 I used the Fiio X1 to play White Sound into my computer's sound card via a TRS cable.  The volume used on the Fiio X1 was ( ugh!  I forgot) with no equalizer engaged.  The recording software was Audacity.  In Audacity I turned the signal into Mono (because later it makes the visual inspection easier and the L/R signal's are identical).
  
*2.*  I then attached the Fiio X1 to the Vali 2 and the Vali 2 into my computer's sound card via a TRS cable.  The volume of the Vali 2 was low gain and max volume (because I think the tube's coloration may be more noticeable when the _*Vali 2*_ is maxed out (if I'm wrong please let me know).  The volume on the Fiio X1 was reduced to compensate.  After some trial and error I found the volume level to match the initial recording via a dB or two (visual inspection of the waveform's amplitude at identical areas).  Then I recorded it using the same method as above.  Once again, the Fiio X1 did not have any equalization engaged.
  
*3.*  I opened both files into Audacity.  The pics below show the spectrograms.  The top is the Solid State recording from the Fiio X1 to my computer's sound card.  The bottom is the Tube recording from the Fiio X1 to the Vali 2 to the computer's sound card.
  
*4.*  The Tube used was the stock tube that accompanied the _*Vali 2*_. The Tube is a Sylvania 6BQ7A.  The Tube was warmed up for 30 minutes before testing.  The Fiio X1 had a full charge.  My cables are those media bridge ones.
  
 Well, the spectrograms kind of confirmed what my ear's were thinking.  No difference.  *WHY?*  This was a not-so-great discovery to make since I recently ordered this cute, expensive little guy:  http://www.upscaleaudio.com/telefunken-e88cc-6922/
  
 The first picture shows the frequency from 0 Hz to 11000 Hz.
 The second picture shows the frequency from 0 Hz to 172 Hz.  I zoomed in on this frequency range because the Tube's sound in general is supposed to be warmer.
  
 The only difference I can see is the 60 Hz noise (and a fainter 120 Hz of course) from the power supply.
  
 Why isn't there any difference between solid state and Tubes?
  

  
 The file below has a zoomed y-axis.


----------



## nwavesailor

When you get the tube from Upscale audio and listen to music you know well with that tube and the stock tube, get back to us.
  
 If that music sounds identical to you with tube A and B, GREAT, save your $$$, listen to whatever equipment you own  and be happy!
  
 There are folks that can't tell the difference between Bud Light and a great hand crafted micro brew. They drink Bud and love it.


----------



## masterwu

jennifersyummie said:


> *Why do the spectrograms of a SS amp and a Tube amp look the same?*
> 
> Hi everyone.  I love my *[COLOR=800080]Vali 2[/COLOR]* !  I love the way the tube glows and it just looks so regal on my desk.  I put the amp in italics and purple (as a sign of reverence) because I like it so much!  I like the idea of changing the tubes and seeing what happens.
> 
> ...




I couldn't tell the diff either. There were some differences on the treble end with the eh6922 and the eh6cg7. Other than that I didn't hear much diff


----------



## nwavesailor

masterwu said:


> I couldn't tell the diff either. There were some differences on the treble end with the eh6922 and the eh6cg7. Other than that I didn't hear much diff


 

 So are you also saying you can hear no difference between SS and tube as JY (OP)?


----------



## JennifersYummie

Because we all loves very much pretty pictures.....
  
 Below is a White Noise profile of the Solid State Fiio X1, the Vali 2 with a National 7DJ8, and finally the Vali 2 proudly holding the expensive Telefunken E88CC within its loving socket-embrace.
  

  
  
 Here's a pic (below) when I vastly increased the sensitivity of Audacity's spectrum function.  I zoomed in on the low region so I could how the 1 second of silence before the White Noise started. 
  

  
  
 Was that a birdy I heard?  Hee hee hee.  Here are some Chirps from 0 to 10000 Hz.
  

 Ooops.  I forgot to replace White Noise with Chirp in the two bottom ones.
  
  
 Now here is the same pic (notice the bottom two don't have "Chirp")?  I once again turned up the sensitivity to a much higher amount than 4 out of 5 Audiophiles would recommend.
  

  
  
  
 The upshot is that my ears can't tell any difference (I'm using excellent HE400i's, but perhaps not so excellent ears).  Playing with the spectrograms show pretty much no differences.  Remember, to generate that weird stuff at 1 Hz (and it's only that low area which makes the National harmonics) I had to vastly increase sensitivity.
  
 I'm not too surprised I can't tell the difference, but I expected to see a difference in the spectrograms.


----------



## HOWIE13

So are you concluding that listening to music with the HE400i, the Vali2 with a Telefunken E88CC sounds more or less the same as a Fiio X1, and this is supported with your spectrograms?


----------



## JennifersYummie

Yes.  Can you suggest any other kinds of tests I could try?  I'm newish at this.


----------



## masterwu

nwavesailor said:


> So are you also saying you can hear no difference between SS and tube as JY (OP)?




What is jy? Forget that question was OP

I don't believe I can hear a distinct difference 

I run the original magni but have not done an a/b comparison 

I do like the vali 2 though


----------



## Guidostrunk

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


jennifersyummie said:


> Yes.  Can you suggest any other kinds of tests I could try?  I'm newish at this.


----------



## nwavesailor

masterwu said:


> What is jy? Forget that question was OP
> 
> I don't believe I can hear a distinct difference
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry masterwu, JY short for is the original poster's user name "Jennifers Yummie"


----------



## Designer79

Is all the testing supposed to show the (no)-difference in sound signature between a solid state amp and the Vali 2? Or is it to scientifically prove there is no audible difference between tubes? If it is the latter, I have to wholeheartedly disagree. Had 2 weeks of listening experience with my 1st rolled tube replacing the stock tube. "Challenged" by the white noise experiment I just switched back to the stock tube, firing up "Royals" by Lorde, which btw is one of the few examples of a mainstream pop track that is really well mastered, and what a difference, especially in harshness and bass / drum control. The bassdsrum kicks are all over the place, not well controlled, not tight, and the overall sound signature is colder / harsher (not analytical). Quite fatiguing actually.
  
 Stock tube: US made NOS Sylvania 6DJ8, replacement tube : NOS Tesla E88CC.
  
 Maybe it lies in our ear's anatomy, quite special compared to other sensory organs. A whole apparatus of mechanically interconnected parts (you know the three tiny bones) moving, before finally getting translated into electrical signals unlike eyesight (direct nerve stimulus) and taste (also direct nerve stimulus). And hey, at the end of the whole system is our brain, where "Hearing" actually happens. Fascinating thing that brain, it INTERPRETS electrical signals from our sensoric system. So yeah our highly complex auditory system might be one of the reasons why listening is such a highly individual thing ...


----------



## Guidostrunk

Maybe start a thread in the "sound science" forums. I'm sure you'll find all the testing info that you need. Hope that helps 


jennifersyummie said:


> Yes.  Can you suggest any other kinds of tests I could try?  I'm newish at this.


----------



## c61746961

FWIW: When I first got the Vali 2 it seemed to sound 'different' somehow from the GO450 that I was using before with all my headphones, later on I felt it was more dynamic, smooth and three-dimensional. Then I built myself an A/B switch and calibrated the output of the Vali 2 (stock tube, both high and low gains) and low-z out of the GO450 within 0.1 dB and I couldn't reliably tell the difference with a wide selection of music. As it stands, I don't think I would pass an ABX test. I played with this for about 2 hours.
Maybe I will do it again another time to see if the results are different, if somehow I've gotten better at listening for these nuances (even though I've successfully ABX'd MP3 VBR V0 from lossless in the past). For now I will continue to enjoy the soothing tube glow and physical volume control.


----------



## JennifersYummie

I'm going to listen to the Telefunken for a very long time.  It will be the only way I will listen for two months.  Then I'll abruptly switch and see if I fancy any difference.  And I'll do the test again also.  So...... see you in March!


----------



## Currawong

jennifersyummie said:


> *Why do the spectrograms of a SS amp and a Tube amp look the same?*


 
  
 In many cases tube amps were designed quite intentionally to sound "warmer" than regular solid-state amps. Not that you can't make a solid-state amp sound "warm" by tweaking the circuit, but it became a "thing" that tube amps sounded a certain way, especially when a raft of Chinese tube amps were popular here for a while. What really was going on, from my limited understanding, was that the designs introduced pleasant-sounding harmonic distortion. A "properly designed" tube amp shouldn't have distortion.  Nor should a solid-state amp, but all components have their own noise profiles and varying degrees of linearity and every designer has their own preferences, making components sound sometimes very subtly different. 
  
 The Schiit tube amps don't have a "tube" sound to them, but since there is a greater variation amongst tubes of a certain type than there are variations of transistors, the Vali 2 makes for a cheap toy to play with in this way.  My main amp has 6 tubes and doesn't sound "tubey" either, unless I want it to. The fun is buying a bunch of tubes of the 4 different types it takes (excluding variations) and rolling them to get the most sonically pleasing results for the headphones I use. It's just one of those things that are part of the hobby that we do for fun.


----------



## masterwu

yes it's fun that's why I bought little fellow. I think im good with the tubes I gotten so far. 

cheers


----------



## HOWIE13

jennifersyummie said:


> Yes.  Can you suggest any other kinds of tests I could try?  I'm newish at this.


 
  
 Very interesting, and I don't know any test that can tell me about the _quality_ of sound as perceived by my brain, which can replace listening.
 I have an HE400 and X3 and X5 at home. When I return from holiday I can do a single blind comparison with the Vali2.


----------



## FoxyGrandpa

So just checkin in before I make my final purchase, the Phillips 7dj8 is the best tube for soundstage, warmth, and still remain decent detail for under $50?


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

Got my socket saver today. Neat little device. Threw on the Mullard PCC881 from @Guidostrunk. It seemed like a halfway point between the Amperex and the Siemens. It had crispness like the Siemens, with a more present lower end, but with much more warmth. It had the organic sound of the Amperex, but not as much airiness or feeling of space between instruments. A decent all rounder though.


----------



## nwavesailor

merrick said:


> Got my socket saver today. Neat little device. Threw on the Mullard PCC881 from @Guidostrunk. It seemed like a halfway point between the Amperex and the Siemens. It had crispness like the Siemens, with a more present lower end, but with much more warmth. It had the organic sound of the Amperex, but not as much airiness or feeling of space between instruments. A decent all rounder though.


 

  
 Guidostruck got you jump-started with a nice assortment of 'top shelf' offerings.
 You now have the start of a pretty sweet tube collection there, Merrick!


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

Yes, I went from nothing to a nice little collection very quickly. I'll probably stop with this set, between them all I have most of the bases covered.


----------



## Skarecrow77

My Philips PCC88 came in today. Vali2 doesn't get here until Friday so nothing to do except figure out where this thing came from. 
  
 As you can see, the markings are VERY worn, and the picture is the best I can do with an iphone... it's slightly easier to read in real life.
  
 it appears to say:
  
 DJER
 04F

 I am not confident at all about the "0", as the bottom 1/4 of the marking is worn off or was never there to begin with. either that or it's an "ohm" symbol. upscale audio seems to think it's the "half circle with a dot" that represents Elektronski Industija, Nis, Yugoslavia. I don't know, they're the experts, but it doesn't look like that to me.

 anyway, using the philips tube guide, that 4 character, 3 character format appears to be the "new" code style. in the new code style, it's TTTC FYM.
  
 type TTT = "DJE". DJ means PCC88 / 7DJ8, which I knew. not sure what E means.
 change C = "R", which may not mean anything of note
 manufacturer/country F = "0"? 0 is Netherlands, but Herleen has it's own "tipped delta" code. I can't match this to anything on the list.
 year Y = "4" = 19x4 in the new code. must be 1964 or later as the new code started in 55/56. likely 1964, as i'm not sure they were still making these in 1974??
 Month M = "F" = June in the new code.

 Anybody with more experience care to re-interpret my analysis?

 The other side says Philips PCC88 in somewhat worn white.

 Also, check the triode matching tightness. wow. No idea what the actual numbers mean (is 16000 good, or bad? 16000 what? What is it measuring?), but the balance is closer than I thought it would be.


----------



## nwavesailor

merrick said:


> Yes, I went from nothing to a nice little collection very quickly. I'll probably stop with this set, between them all I have most of the bases covered.


 

 We have ALL said this............"I can stop buying tubes whenever I want!"
  
 Heard at a local 12 step meeting:
  
 "Hi, my name is nwavesailor........ and I'm a tube-a-holic"


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

Honestly, I wasn't planning on getting much more past those two ebay ones I got, but then Guidostrunk made me an offer I couldn't refuse, and I didn't!
  
 Oh and also, the Amperex has given me no more noise issues since scrubbing the pins with alcohol. Phew!


----------



## Capt369

merrick said:


> Honestly, I wasn't planning on getting much more past those two ebay ones I got, but then Guidostrunk made me an offer I couldn't refuse, and I didn't!
> 
> Oh and also, the Amperex has given me no more noise issues since scrubbing the pins with alcohol. Phew!


 

 Good, I was wondering about your tube situation and the alcohol solution. Great advice for the future.


----------



## jaywillin

nwavesailor said:


> We have ALL said this............"I can stop buying tubes whenever I want!"
> 
> Heard at a local 12 step meeting:
> 
> "Hi, my name is nwavesailor........ and I'm a tube-a-holic"


 
 after "i can stop anytime"  comes, "but i need just this one more"


----------



## HOWIE13

skarecrow77 said:


> My Philips PCC88 came in today. Vali2 doesn't get here until Friday so nothing to do except figure out where this thing came from.
> 
> As you can see, the markings are VERY worn, and the picture is the best I can do with an iphone... it's slightly easier to read in real life.
> 
> ...


 
 Annoying the seller doesn't give units to help you decide what 's being measured and under what conditions.
 Anyway, I'm guessing that this is the cathode emission current in microamps.
 Provided the test anode voltage is the 'characteristic' for the tube of 90V with a grid voltage of -1.3V, the reading of 16000 is very good as the 'characteristic' value is 15000 microamps.
 Unfortunately this doesn't necessarily equate to the two channels being well balanced in terms of sound-but at least it's promising.
 This is all speculation, of course.


----------



## NoOneLt

Hi everyone! Got my Vali 2, no impressions ATM as seem i got flu, and my head is braking down, so not into music right now.
  
 Actually Designer79 brought me here from T90 thread  Thanks man!  So now my gear is Creative ZxR RCA>Vali 2>T90 and i motly listen to Rock (hard to listen on T90), some trance, and some POP. 
  
 As i understood NOS Tesla E88CC liked among Vali 2 users? Though prices seems to be pretty high right now even in EU, gold pins + yellow paint very pricey, far from 20 EUR  Should i get normal one, how to avoid fakes?
  
 Thanks in advance!


----------



## VolumusMaximus

The Philips 7dj8 is a great upgrade to the stock tube. It is a relaxed, airy with slight warmth. The bottom has nice extension, and the mids are beautiful. I might suggest a 'premium' grade (lowest noise) with balanced triodes.


----------



## NoOneLt

And how much impact tube rolling really makes? I'am pretty new here, and only rolled op-amps on my ZxR ones from stock TI to MUSES01, i would lie if i could tell a difference... 
  
 Does tube rollin impact sound enough for untrained casual listener to notice difference?


----------



## HOWIE13

noonelt said:


> And how much impact tube rolling really makes? I'am pretty new here, and only rolled op-amps on my ZxR ones from stock TI to MUSES01, i would lie if i could tell a difference...
> 
> Does tube rollin impact sound enough for untrained casual listener to notice difference?


 
  
 To answer your question you need to buy a tube amp and find out. If you are happy with your present soundcard set up then leave it at that.
 My experience with opamp rolling with Starlight was that I could hear a difference but tube rolling made more of a difference.


----------



## Oskari

skarecrow77 said:


> My Philips PCC88 came in today. Vali2 doesn't get here until Friday so nothing to do except figure out where this thing came from.
> 
> As you can see, the markings are VERY worn, and the picture is the best I can do with an iphone... it's slightly easier to read in real life.
> 
> ...




That's _Ei_. No doubt about that. The code is a bit nonstandard.

This should be called _Ei PCC88 branded Philips_, not just _Philips PCC88_.


----------



## HOWIE13

Except for the lettering the Ei and Philips boxes look pretty similar. Makes me wonder who actually makes these tubes.


----------



## Oskari

Forget the boxes, ignore the labels, read the codes.

(_Ei_ used Philips tech, though.)


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Forget the boxes, ignore the labels, read the codes.
> 
> (_Ei_ used Philips tech, though.)


 
 ok, so will these tubes be identical to Philips factory made PCC 88 tubes?


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> ok, so will these tubes be identical to Philips factory made PCC 88 tubes?




Will a Heerlen-made PCC88 be _identical_ to a Blackburn-made one? No, and those were both Philips factories.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Will a Heerlen-made PCC88 be _identical_ to a Blackburn-made one? No, and those were both Philips factories.


 
  Is the Ei factory also a Philips factory in the same way as the Heerlen and Blackburn factories were both Philips factories?


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Is the Ei factory also a Philips factory in the same way as the Heerlen and Blackburn factories were both Philips factories?




I don't think it was owned by Philips; so, not a Philips factory in that sense.


----------



## nwavesailor

Quote: 





noonelt said:


> As i understood NOS Tesla E88CC liked among Vali 2 users? Though prices seems to be pretty high right now even in EU, gold pins + yellow paint very pricey, far from 20 EUR  Should i get normal one, how to avoid fakes?
> 
> I have read that there were some 'crossed swords' version of the Tesla E88CC all with the same date code that were relabeled. I found this listing the year / month date codes for Teslas:
> 
> ...


----------



## Skarecrow77

oskari said:


> That's _Ei_. No doubt about that. The code is a bit nonstandard.
> 
> This should be called _Ei PCC88 branded Philips_, not just _Philips PCC88_.


 
  
 You sound pretty sure of it. I'll take your word for it.

 I haven't heard Ei mentioned much in this thread. I'm a tube-newb, is Ei well known? Reputation good, bad, indifferent?


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

I tried the Valvo PCC88, Herleen manufactured. It sounded kind of flat to be honest. It wasn't getting me excited like the other tubes. Going to try out the 1966 Siemens E288CC now.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

Holy hell, the Siemens sounds incredible! Much better than the PCC88 I got from ebay. It's incredibly crisp and transparent, a very balanced, dry sound that lets the inherent nature of the recording in question shine through. This tops the Amperex for me, although the sound is so different that I know I'll be switching between them from time to time. Just incredible sound.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Let it burn in for a bit. It'll smooth out. Lol. 


merrick said:


> Holy hell, the Siemens sounds incredible! Much better than the PCC88 I got from ebay. It's incredibly crisp and transparent, a very balanced, dry sound that lets the inherent nature of the recording in question shine through. This tops the Amperex for me, although the sound is so different that I know I'll be switching between them from time to time. Just incredible sound.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Also , that Siemens tube was NOS. So expect the soundstage to open up a LOT. When it does, you'll know it. It'll freak you out when notes start to feel like they're floating. Lol


merrick said:


> Holy hell, the Siemens sounds incredible! Much better than the PCC88 I got from ebay. It's incredibly crisp and transparent, a very balanced, dry sound that lets the inherent nature of the recording in question shine through. This tops the Amperex for me, although the sound is so different that I know I'll be switching between them from time to time. Just incredible sound.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

I can't wait!


----------



## NoOneLt

nwavesailor said:


>


 
 Hi, thank for info, could this be a real deal ? It says late seventies, but i don't see late seventies in your table, means fake?
  
 What other tubes worth to try with T90 especially? To smooth them out a bit?
  
 UPD, found big date codes table for Tesla ECC88 here if it is legitimate.
  
 UPD2, ordered this item from seller, he is a local one, made discount on shipping price, said it is real TESLA tube from CZ soldier's repair set's. Hope it is true. Will update my thoughts when i get it.
  
 Question: Do tubes have some burn-in time?


----------



## jaywillin

noonelt said:


> Hi, thank for info, could this be a real deal ? It says late seventies, but i don't see late seventies in your table, means fake?
> 
> What other tubes worth to try with T90 especially? To smooth them out a bit?
> 
> ...


 
 yes, and usually very noticeable 
 a lot of NOS tubes can actually sound kinda bad when first used, lots of hiss, popping , etc, and then the more hours they get used, 
 the noise can settled, and the sound of the tube opens, and shines through
 some tubes can take up to 100 or so hours to fully burn in, but most don't take that long


----------



## Oskari

skarecrow77 said:


> I haven't heard Ei mentioned much in this thread. I'm a tube-newb, is Ei well known? Reputation good, bad, indifferent?


 
  
 I'd say the general reputation is that they made good sounding tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

skarecrow77 said:


> You sound pretty sure of it. I'll take your word for it.
> 
> I haven't heard Ei mentioned much in this thread. I'm a tube-newb, is Ei well known? Reputation good, bad, indifferent?


 
  
 I have a pair of Ei 6HM5's which sound glorious in my LD2/2, and their 6CG7 is pretty good in my Ember.
 I suspect, like some other European manufacturers, they have been somewhat unfairly under-rated compared to the bigger players, like the American companies and the Philips/Mullard empire.
 Now, having said that, on a personal note, I would be quite annoyed if I had ordered what I thought was a Philips tube and received one made by Ei.


----------



## jellofund

Received my Vali 2 in the post this morning. Have to say early impressions are very favourable.
  
 I haven't bothered trying the stock tube but the Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 I'm using really sounds lovely with both my K712 Pro and DT990 Pro 250 LE (cheers again for the recommendation Howard!). Very musical, smooth and clean sounding. 
  
 I had a Lyr (v1) a while back and one of my bugbears was that with some headphones the amount of background hum could be intrusive but this thing on low gain is silent to my ears. Will try my lower impedance headphones later and hopefully that'll remain the case.
 Should be a good evening's listening


----------



## JennifersYummie

Does anyone know if you get "more tube sound" if you have the Vali 2 working harder? That is to say in order to get your preferred listening volume you set things up such that the Vali 2 is in high gain and the volume knob turned up to its entirety (while your DAC is turned down enough to allow those max settings)?

Or do you get the same "tube sound" simply by virtue of passing the signal through the Vali 2, even if it is set to low gain and the volume knob twisted but a little?


----------



## nwavesailor

Do most folks use low or high gain with the Vali 2 or is it simply hp dependent?  I have low impedence 32 ohm cans and can use either setting, but find less tube 'noise' using the low setting.
  
 I'd be curious what other users are finding regarding the low / high  settings and detail, treble and bass.


----------



## RickB

nwavesailor said:


> Do most folks use low or high gain with the Vali 2 or is it simply hp dependent?  I have low impedence 32 ohm cans and can use either setting, but find less tube 'noise' using the low setting.
> 
> I'd be curious what other users are finding regarding the low / high  settings and detail, treble and bass.


 
  
 I listen to a lot of modern indie rock recordings and they are so loud (dynamic range compression) that I have to use the Vali 2 in low gain to get any usable volume range on the knob. I'm using an HD600 (300 ohm). Luckily, I don't really detect any sound quality differences between using low/high gain.


----------



## sheldaze

nwavesailor said:


> Do most folks use low or high gain with the Vali 2 or is it simply hp dependent?  I have low impedence 32 ohm cans and can use either setting, but find less tube 'noise' using the low setting.
> 
> I'd be curious what other users are finding regarding the low / high  settings and detail, treble and bass.


 
 Low gain - more to do with the Vali 2 does lose balance between left and right channels at very low volume. I use low volume, and thus find the low gain gives me more movement of the pot with balanced channels.
  
 Otherwise, I have not noticed a difference between high and low gain - at least for high impedance headphones. I did test, when I first got the amplifier, high gain with a low impedance headphone. It was similar to running the original Vali with a low impedance headphone. Low gain is fine for me and _all _my headphones.


----------



## rgmffn

nwavesailor said:


> Do most folks use low or high gain with the Vali 2 or is it simply hp dependent?  I have low impedence 32 ohm cans and can use either setting, but find less tube 'noise' using the low setting.
> 
> I'd be curious what other users are finding regarding the low / high  settings and detail, treble and bass.


 
  
  
 Although I don't have any high impedance HPs (where you might need/use Hi gain), I always use the Lo gain setting.  My daily drivers are Fidelio X2's & HE400i's.  There's something about the Hi gain setting that doesn't sound as good to me.  I'm not sure how to describe it...  but it seems to have a more aggressive and faster attack.  Not as smooth sounding to me as the Lo setting.  Everything seems a little more accentuated, but, with negative connotations.  But then again, your HP requirements and your preferences may differ. As it says in the manual... Use the setting that sounds best to you.


----------



## NoOneLt

There s a "rule"to use low gain while you can, lower output impedance is one of the reasons, Vali 2 has something about 1 ohm at low gain and 7 at high gain. 7 ohmm is pretty bad for 32 ohm headphone, as amp looses control over dynamics. Rule for output impedance states that it should be at least 1/8 of hp impedance, same for speakers.


----------



## Currawong

jennifersyummie said:


> Does anyone know if you get "more tube sound" if you have the Vali 2 working harder? That is to say in order to get your preferred listening volume you set things up such that the Vali 2 is in high gain and the volume knob turned up to its entirety (while your DAC is turned down enough to allow those max settings)?
> 
> Or do you get the same "tube sound" simply by virtue of passing the signal through the Vali 2, even if it is set to low gain and the volume knob twisted but a little?


 

 The tubes are part of the amplification circuit at all times, so they will have an effect on the sound that comes out regardless of anything else.


----------



## Skarecrow77

howie13 said:


> I have a pair of Ei 6HM5's which sound glorious in my LD2/2, and their 6CG7 is pretty good in my Ember.
> I suspect, like some other European manufacturers, they have been somewhat unfairly under-rated compared to the bigger players, like the American companies and the Philips/Mullard empire.
> Now, having said that, on a personal note, I would be quite annoyed if I had ordered what I thought was a Philips tube and received one made by Ei.


 
  
 Been listening to the Ei PCC88 for 2 hours now, and it's better than the stock tube at _everything_. It's probably not be-all end-all tube for the Vali2, but it's a great replacement for the stock tube. Given the price of the Vali2 I feel kinda weird about getting a more expensive tube that costs as much as the amp itself. Maybe one day.


----------



## HOWIE13

skarecrow77 said:


> Been listening to the Ei PCC88 for 2 hours now, and it's better than the stock tube at _everything_. It's probably not be-all end-all tube for the Vali2, but it's a great replacement for the stock tube. Given the price of the Vali2 I feel kinda weird about getting a more expensive tube that costs as much as the amp itself. Maybe one day.


 
 I'm so pleased you like it. Had I not been travelling yesterday evening I would have posted that I would have tried it anyway.
  
 The philosophy of spending a lot on a tube is only justified if it makes your amp sound much more 'expensive'.
 Vali2 invites such spending as it does scale up to sound really excellent.


----------



## HOWIE13

howie13 said:


> Very interesting, and I don't know any test that can tell me about the _quality_ of sound as perceived by my brain, which can replace listening.
> I have an HE400 and X3 and X5 at home. When I return from holiday I can do a single blind comparison with the Vali2.


 
 OK I done the test and it's very clear to me that there is a huge difference between the Fiio X5 and X3 and the Vali2, listening with my HE400's and stock tube.
 In brief,-vastly superior soundstage, width, depth and height, smoother upper mids and treble, better bass control, better imaging, instrument separation, clarity -in fact every aspect of the sound was improved with the Vali2.
 That's not to say I don't like the Fiio, I do, it's a great amp for what it was intended to do, but it's really unable to compete to my ears with the Vali2 in powering the HE400.


----------



## Designer79

Welcome, the newest members in my "affordable range" of tubes ...
  

  
 - I got another Tesla E88CC goldpin as a replacement/spare for my first one. According to the date codes (thank you @NoOneLt) the yellow label one was made in 1972 (date code HM), whereas my original white labelled one was made in 1975 (date code JX). Neither of the two is a "crossed sword" version.
  
 - Then there is the the Heerlen made Philips Miniwatt PCC88 which I am burning in right now.  I will post impressions soon, after I have a good grasp of the differences to the E88CC tubes. But the famous Heerlen midrange is already there, although not overwhelmingly better than the Tesla's. Hope it'll get a bit more pronounced with some burn in.
  
 - Lastly, I got a whole different tube than I ordered. I expected a made in France La Radiotechnique, Valvo labelled tube. Instead I got a AEG (not Telefunken made, unfortunately) E88CC, no idea made where, no indications whatsoever but a 87-11 "date stamp" ?? Any help on AEG tubes would be appreciated. Gonna listen to it anyway, if it sounds good it'll be a keeper, otherwise I have a 1 month return guarantee.
  
 Cheers
  
 Update: The AEG tube might be of Russian origin. After the closing of German factories, AEG kept purchasing former Sovjet stock, like Siemens did with Tesla made stock.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

howie13 said:


> OK I done the test and it's very clear to me that there is a huge difference between the Fiio X5 and X3 and the Vali2, listening with my HE400's and stock tube.
> In brief,-vastly superior soundstage, width, depth and height, smoother upper mids and treble, better bass control, better imaging, instrument separation, clarity -in fact every aspect of the sound was improved with the Vali2.
> That's not to say I don't like the Fiio, I do, it's a great amp for what it was intended to do, but it's really unable to compete to my ears with the Vali2 in powering the HE400.




I don't know why people expect DAPs to sound as good as a dedicated amp. Especially entry level DAPs like the Fiio. I'm not ragging on you, Howie. I'm just surprised that people expect full on amp performance from a DAP.


----------



## HOWIE13

merrick said:


> I don't know why people expect DAPs to sound as good as a dedicated amp. Especially entry level DAPs like the Fiio. I'm not ragging on you, Howie. I'm just surprised that people expect full on amp performance from a DAP.


 
 Hi Merrick
 I'm too old to know what 'ragging' means but just to explain I did this experiment because another poster had stated they sounded the same. I was also surprised and wanted to test this for myself. Unfortunately, I didn't include the original post which would have made this clear.


----------



## JennifersYummie

That was me. I asked about it. So you think I'd be able to tell the difference between tubes if I had a better DAC than the Fiio X1?


----------



## JennifersYummie

Oh oh, and if the answer is yes do you think the Schiit Modi 2 will satisfy my wants?


----------



## HOWIE13

jennifersyummie said:


> That was me. I asked about it. So you think I'd be able to tell the difference between tubes if I had a better DAC than the Fiio X1?


 
 Hi JennifersYummie
  
 Yes. Small mobile players like the Fiio, which can double as a DAC and an amplifier, are excellent for travelling around with and suit easy to drive headphones.
 However, with less sensitive, more difficult to drive cans like the HE 400/i the sound benefits from the much higher power from larger desktop amplifiers.
 You have a lot of exciting exploration ahead, I suspect.


----------



## Designer79

@Skarecrow77.
  
 I hope you enjoy the PCC88, I am just burning in mine. Midrange seems better defined than the Teslas. There is some info about the Ei production Philips tubes:
  
 Quote:


howie13 said:


> ok, so will these tubes be identical to Philips factory made PCC 88 tubes?


 
  
 This seems to be a similar situation, as with the JJ and Tesla tubes. When during the 80's Tesla gave up production, JJ jumped in and bought all the machinery they used to produce. Sometimes on the internet you find Tesla-JJ tubes on sale. They are NOT Teslas. Same thing happened with Ei, they jumped in and accquired old Philips machinery. So even though the tubes are produced on original machinery, I doubt Ei had access to the same materials (cathodes) that Philips built into their tubes ...


----------



## HOWIE13

jennifersyummie said:


> Oh oh, and if the answer is yes do you think the Schiit Modi 2 will satisfy my wants?


 
 The Modi is a DAC but you also need to connect the HE400i  to a headphone amplifier.
 You can get combined DAC's and amps's but personally I prefer two separates.
 One option would be to buy the Modi 2 as your DAC and connect it to a separate amp, like the Vali2 or a solid state Schiit amp.
 There are countless options and that's what keeps us glued to Head-Fi.


----------



## HOWIE13

designer79 said:


> This seem to be a similar situation, as with the JJ and Tesla tubes. When during the 80's Tesla gave up production JJ jumped in and bought all their machinery they used to produce. Sometimes on the internet you find Tesla-JJ tubes on sale. They are NOT Teslas. Same thing happened with Ei, they jumped in and accquired old Philips machinery. So even though the tubes are produced on original machinery, I doubt Ei had the access to the same materials (cathodes) used, that Philips built into their tubes ...


 
 Thanks for explaining that so clearly.


----------



## JennifersYummie

howie13 said:


> OK I done the test and it's very clear to me that there is a huge difference between the Fiio X5 and X3 and the Vali2, listening with my HE400's and stock tube.
> In brief,-vastly superior soundstage, width, depth and height, smoother upper mids and treble, better bass control, better imaging, instrument separation, clarity -in fact every aspect of the sound was improved with the Vali2.
> That's not to say I don't like the Fiio, I do, it's a great amp for what it was intended to do, but it's really unable to compete to my ears with the Vali2 in powering the HE400.




Hiya! Could you clarify something? If I'm reading this correctly it sounds (ha ha ha) like when listening *directly* from the Fiio players it's nothing to write home about. In contrast when you employ the Vali 2 the sound becomes something special. Are you feeding the Fiio signal via its headphone output to the Vali 2?


----------



## JennifersYummie

howie13 said:


> The Modi is a DAC but you also need to connect the HE400i  to a headphone amplifier.
> You can get combined DAC's and amps's but personally I prefer two separates.
> One option would be to buy the Modi 2 as your DAC and connect it to a separate amp, like the Vali2 or a solid state Schiit amp.
> There are countless options and that's what keeps us glued to Head-Fi.




Hello again! Fun forum this. Currently I have my Fiio X1 hooked up to a Vali 2. Now from reading a bit it sounds like even the Fiio X1 might be a DAC you don't want to take home to meet the family. So what if I did a digital output to a Modi 2 and then that went to the Vali 2? Do you think I would get better sound by virtue of doing the DACing with the Modi 2?


----------



## HOWIE13

jennifersyummie said:


> Hiya! Could you clarify something? If I'm reading this correctly it sounds (ha ha ha) like when listening *directly* from the Fiio players it's nothing to write home about. In contrast when you employ the Vali 2 the sound becomes something special. Are you feeding the Fiio signal via its headphone output to the Vali 2?


 
 No-the Fiio can sound very good with the right headphones.
 I connected the line-out of the X5 to the Vali2. I don't think the X1 has a line out though. 
 EDIT :Have just read X1manual, it does have a line out setting-that's what you should use to connect to the amp


----------



## HOWIE13

jennifersyummie said:


> Hello again! Fun forum this. Currently I have my Fiio X1 hooked up to a Vali 2. Now from reading a bit it sounds like even the Fiio X1 might be a DAC you don't want to take home to meet the family. So what if I did a digital output to a Modi 2 and then that went to the Vali 2? Do you think I would get better sound by virtue of doing the DACing with the Modi 2?


 
 Yes, that's the set up:  source digital file to DAC to amp to headphone..


----------



## Skarecrow77

designer79 said:


> This seems to be a similar situation, as with the JJ and Tesla tubes. When during the 80's Tesla gave up production, JJ jumped in and bought all the machinery they used to produce. Sometimes on the internet you find Tesla-JJ tubes on sale. They are NOT Teslas. Same thing happened with Ei, they jumped in and accquired old Philips machinery. So even though the tubes are produced on original machinery, I doubt Ei had access to the same materials (cathodes) that Philips built into their tubes ...


 
  
 Not having a "real" Philips to compare to, I couldn't say. I will say that the EI is a huge improvement on the stock tube. "Real" or not, it was a good purchase. I posted my detailed impressions of it in the main vali2 thread. 
  
 short version: basically Vali2 with the stock tube, to me, sounded like a hot mess. Treble was sharp and harsh, Midrange was bloated and sounded "dirty" (can't think of a better word. it was over-emphasized, but didn't sound good), bass was ghostly... I could hear the notes but they had no weight behind them. Granted I didn't give it the benefit of a full burn-in, but with the PCC88 sitting right there begging to be tried, I couldn't resist. The PCC88 fixed everything -instantly-, as soon as I plugged it in, with no warm-up or burn-in, except the bass. 7 hours into the PCC88 now and the bass is improved, the midbass is fantastic, the harshness of the treble is gone and replaced with a bit of "sparkle" when the music calls for it. The soundstage and separation are the high point, they're magical... way better than my old solid state. Hell they're probably better than when I got to listen to my cans on a co-worker's Woo WA-7. The midrange is still noticeably "forward", but it's not messy anymore. it's a lot more controlled. I think it's just the synergy of the vali 2 and the NAD HP50s.


----------



## Designer79

skarecrow77 said:


> Not having a "real" Philips to compare to, I couldn't say. I will say that the EI is a huge improvement on the stock tube. "Real" or not, it was a good purchase. I posted my detailed impressions of it in the main vali2 thread.


 
  
 Sorry, I didn't mean to say that EI is bad, they are made with Philips tools and the general opinion is that they sound good  I have no experience with them. Just wanted to pass along some information and background to EIs ... To be completely honest, after my limited experience with tubes, I am not yet jumping on the "brand" hype train. I find the difference in sound to be much more obvious between the different "grades" ECC88 vs. E88CC and surely E188CC / CCA than there probably is between different origin of Philips tubes. 4 hours on the Philips Miniwatt PCC88 and I am still not convinced it is the better sounding tube than the Teslas.


----------



## Guidostrunk

About as good as it gets folks. Lol
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=231837723154&alt=web


----------



## Skarecrow77

designer79 said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean to say that EI is bad, they are made with Philips tools and the general opinion is that they sound good  I have no experience with them. Just wanted to pass along some information and background to EIs ... To be completely honest, after my limited experience with tubes, I am not yet jumping on the "brand" hype train. I find the difference in sound to be much more obvious between the different "grades" ECC88 vs. E88CC and surely E188CC / CCA than there probably is between different origin of Philips tubes. 4 hours on the Philips Miniwatt PCC88 and I am still not convinced it is the better sounding tube than the Teslas.


 
  
 Oh I didn't take that from your posts at all.
  
 At first I was disappointed not to be getting a Heerlen tube, but if I'd read the fine print, I shouldn't have expected one anyway.
 Now I'm perfectly happy with how the EI sounds for the money.


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

guidostrunk said:


> About as good as it gets folks. Lol
> http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=231837723154&alt=web




Nice! Too rich for my blood though.


----------



## Guidostrunk

^We watched this unfold on the Lyr , thread. I nearly fell out of my chair when it ended. We were all guessing the final price. We were WAAAAAAAY off. Lol
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=141821047786&alt=web


----------



## Guidostrunk

Edit: They were Eindhovens


----------



## btalcox0715

Can someone look at these tubes and tell me if they are legit? They only have one photo. They are the Tesla E88CC Code "32" yellow print and gold pins. I think they look legitimate, but the only thing that worries me is the top of the tube. Apparently JJ used to fake these tubes, and you could tell by a rounder top of the tube, as opposed to a flatter top of the Tesla's. These look a little bit rounder.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/E88CC-Gold-pin-TESLA-tubes-Lot-of-2-NEW-/161868689742?hash=item25b020314e:g:vBQAAOSwYHxWLA61


----------



## nwavesailor

merrick said:


> Nice! Too rich for my blood though.


 

 I suppose if money wasn't no object and I had 'stupid' money it would just be a interesting experiment:
  
 "What is that pinched waist thing all about and do they REALLY sound better than the straight sided tube of the same vinatge."
  
 I'm guessing that it's just that the pinched waist are rare (and perhaps less microphonic)  and rare = more $$$


----------



## HOWIE13

I was very sceptical earlier of the 'Philips' Ei made tubes but I have now heard one and will freely admit that this is, indeed, a very good tube.
 This is also a very enjoyable and energetic thread.


----------



## Designer79

Quote: 





btalcox0715 said:


> Can someone look at these tubes and tell me if they are legit? They only have one photo. They are the Tesla E88CC Code "32" yellow print and gold pins. I think they look legitimate, but the only thing that worries me is the top of the tube. Apparently JJ used to fake these tubes, and you could tell by a rounder top of the tube, as opposed to a flatter top of the Tesla's. These look a little bit rounder.


 
  
 The angle of the picture makes it really hard to tell. My Teslas have the area around the little cusp on top flattened out (the 1975 one more so than the 1972 one) whereas the JJs are said to be completely round. See pic below. If shot from a lower viewpoint even the originals look rounded. Ask the seller for the date code stamped on them, @NoOneLt posted a code-table for Teslas a few pages back. Compare and see. Another way to tell but also hard to judge from pics: The "shields" around the grids in Teslas are a darker grey than the JJ's.


----------



## Designer79

To elaborate further on the topic of fake tubes, there is a really pessimistic article here: http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/
  
 Obviously faking has been around for quite a while and it's happening big scale and is very elaborate. Makes me hesitate to ever buy tubes on the net (eBay) again. Luckily on my way to work I pass a nice hi-end audiophile store daily. They got tons of gorgeous looking tube-amps on display. Gotta ask what tubes they have in stock ...
  
 I think at least with the PCC88 Philips Miniwatt and the Teslas I have gotten lucky so far. There are some indications about the Philips that make me quite confident it's the real deal.
  
 - The etched factory code (although it has kind of a "painted" quality to it), I have no idea though what look acid-etching on glass will produce. DJ7 (Type-code for PCC88) on top and "Delta"0J1 below for Heerlen made in 1970, October, 1st week.
  

  
 - The labelling comes off very easily by just rubbing over it. A trait of real NOS. Re-stamped tubes use paint, that is much much harder to remove.
  

  
 - Finally the glass tube of the Philips is different on top. It has got 4 lines embossed every 90°. @Guidostrunk, could you elaborate on this? Do your Heerlen made tubes have this as well?
  

  
 Hope this'll help a bit.


----------



## Skarecrow77

howie13 said:


> I was very sceptical earlier of the 'Philips' Ei made tubes but I have now heard one and will freely admit that this is, indeed, a very good tube.
> This is also a very enjoyable and energetic thread.


 


 I'm really enjoying mine now that I've got about 15 hours on it. I wish I had a real Heerlen Philips tube to compare against, but lacking that context I gotta say I'm really pleased with this EI Philips.

 After doing some research on these EI Philips tubes, it seems like these was some sort of "technology transfer" from Heerlen, Netherlands to Nis, Yugoslavia, or at very least that they were using Philips Holland tooling. Take that for whatever you may. I've seen multiple sources that claim the Nis tubes have the "Philips sound". Again, can't confirm if that's true, but I can confirm mine is pretty sweet.

 The 1970s EI tubes seem to be better regarded than the 1980s EI tubes for some reason. Pretty sure mine is a 1974 based on the code on it and having seen other "EI made Philips" tubes elsewhere on the web advertised as being made in 1974.


----------



## nwavesailor

skarecrow77 said:


> The 1970s EI tubes seem to be better regarded than the 1980s EI tubes for some reason. Pretty sure mine is a 1974 based on the code on it and having seen other "EI made Philips" tubes elsewhere on the web advertised as being made in 1974.


 
 I confused EI with Tesla, sorry!


----------



## btalcox0715

designer79 said:


> The angle of the picture makes it really hard to tell. My Teslas have the area around the little cusp on top flattened out (the 1975 one more so than the 1972 one) whereas the JJs are said to be completely round. See pic below. If shot from a lower viewpoint even the originals look rounded. Ask the seller for the date code stamped on them, @NoOneLt posted a code-table for Teslas a few pages back. Compare and see. Another way to tell but also hard to judge from pics: The "shields" around the grids in Teslas are a darker grey than the JJ's.


 
  
 Hmmm, tempted to take my chances as it's only $30 for 2.


----------



## nwavesailor

As Monty Python would say:
  
 "Now for something COMPLETELY different!"
  

  
 Yep, they look a bit funny but their sound is nothing short of stunning!
  
 Move over Made in Holland 6DJ8 / 6922 / 7308 there's a new kid in town and he's playin for keeps.............
  
 Will the 6SN7's come close or even sound better than this pair??? I guess I'll see.........


----------



## rgmffn

^^ That's freakin' awesome! I was preparing to post my experiences with my two new NOS tubes but why even bother after seeing that. Wow!


----------



## HOWIE13

nwavesailor said:


> As Monty Python would say:
> 
> "Now for something COMPLETELY different!"
> 
> ...


 
 I have been using dual single octals for some time now with Vali2. I wouldn't go back to any other tube type. They are the Kings. Same with G1217 amps, IMHO, of course.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Any links on where to get something like that? Lol


nwavesailor said:


> As Monty Python would say:
> 
> "Now for something COMPLETELY different!"
> 
> ...


----------



## jaywillin

guidostrunk said:


> Any links on where to get something like that? Lol


 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/201359298646?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tube-Amplifier-6J5-6J5-Replace-6SN7-Tube-Socket-Adapter-Suzier-B9-1PCS-/281787538278?hash=item419bd89b66:gPAAAOSwd0BV5EAG


----------



## nwavesailor

jaywillin said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/201359298646?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tube-Amplifier-6J5-6J5-Replace-6SN7-Tube-Socket-Adapter-Suzier-B9-1PCS-/281787538278?hash=item419bd89b66:gPAAAOSwd0BV5EAG


 

 Thank, jaywillin!
  
 The version I bought has a nine pin base with 6922, etc. pin out.


----------



## jaywillin

nwavesailor said:


> Thank, jaywillin!
> 
> The version I bought has a nine pin base with 6922, etc. pin out.


 
 hadn't seen one like that, do you have a link of that ?


----------



## nwavesailor

jaywillin said:


> hadn't seen one like that, do you have a link of that ?


 

 Yep, here it is:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201458214762?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## HOWIE13

That's the one I use too. You don't need any other adapter or socket saver with it.


----------



## jaywillin

nwavesailor said:


> Yep, here it is:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/201458214762?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


 
 thanks !


----------



## Guidostrunk

Thanks bro! 


nwavesailor said:


> Yep, here it is:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/201458214762?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## volly

Well, Rolled in my Telefunken 7dj8 this morning, very reluctant just because I loved the Philips 7dj8 so much!
  
 I've been burning it in and so far OHHHHH so good! 
  
 Just going off memory, the Telefunken's are cleaner, airy, and very very focused!
  
 Bass, Mid's are flatten out, the high's are airy and extended without any listening fatigue. 
  
 Whilst using my X2's, the bass is tighten up a few notches and slams quite hard compared to the warmer Philips. The mid's are clear and focused but not as intimate like the Philips. The high's is what sets the two tubes apart, the Telefunken's adds that extra spice on top and really wakes up the music. More air, micro-detail and sound stage but both have an amazing 3D like soundscape!
  
 Also, this tube is noticeably more quieter than the Philips, hum on high gain is almost silent!
  
 I could seriously see myself rolling the Telefunken's in during the day and listen to the Philips at night and just chilling out!
  
 I'm glad I gave the Philips are really good, now it's Telefunken time!


----------



## HOWIE13

volly said:


> Well, Rolled in my Telefunken 7dj8 this morning, very reluctant just because I loved the Philips 7dj8 so much!
> 
> I've been burning it in and so far OHHHHH so good!
> 
> ...


 
 I have very few tubes that don't hum with my X2  with Vali2 on high setting so it's good to know about the Telefunken.


----------



## NoOneLt

Hey, how you clean tubes and keep all the marking safe? I think alcohol can damage marking, and my new tube has some marks on it i would like to remove.


----------



## HOWIE13

noonelt said:


> Hey, how you clean tubes and keep all the marking safe? I think alcohol can damage marking, and my new tube has some marks on it i would like to remove.


 
 I don't normally clean the glass but if there is a particular mark that's annoying you I would do no more than gently rub with a dry cloth, avoiding any print.
 Pins are another matter. You can wipe with alcohol or Deoxit-but when you do so avoid getting any liquid onto the glass as it could destroy the markings. Of course some tubes have more permanent markings than others. My Mullard and Bugle Boys' markings are particularly fragile.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Deoxit Deoxit Deoxit 


noonelt said:


> Hey, how you clean tubes and keep all the marking safe? I think alcohol can damage marking, and my new tube has some marks on it i would like to remove.


----------



## bilbo6209

Hey guys, 
  
 I am taking my first venture into vintage tube buying and I am not sure how to decipher what a seller has listed as the production number, this is a seller in the Netherlands on ebay that has good reviews. 
  
 The number listed is "7L4 - <8J   /  43H"  this is listed as a Phillips mini watt d-getter e88cc 
 Here is the auction, lease don't bid  the seller has a bunch of other tubes for sale. 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/191796516314?_trksid=p2060353.m1431.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 Bill


----------



## bilbo6209

bilbo6209 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I am taking my first venture into vintage tube buying and I am not sure how to decipher what a seller has listed as the production number, this is a seller in the Netherlands on ebay that has good reviews.
> 
> The number listed is "7L4 - <8J   /  43H"  this is listed as a Phillips mini watt d-getter e88cc


 
 Ok if I understand the multitude of pages ect I just looked at this is a model 7l variation 4 tube made in the Hellen Holland factory in Oct of 58?
  
 Bill
  

Heerlen, Holland


----------



## nwavesailor

bilbo6209 said:


> Ok if I understand the multitude of pages ect I just looked at this is a model 7l variation 4 tube made in the Hellen Holland factory in Oct of 58?
> 
> Bill
> 
> ...


 

 Bill, it is no doubt a very good or even a GREAT tube.........but...........please do NOT bid until the auction is within mere seconds of ending. You will ultimately only make it more expensive for yourself and others will also be doing last second bidding. You'll think it is yours with 5-10 seconds left in the auction only to have someone come in last second and snag it. In most auctions, the action is in the final seconds if it is a desirable item folks want!
  
 Edit: Looking at the 'sold' listing for this Philips SQ tube they don't generally sell for huge $$$ so not too high a risk of getting caught in a crazy E-Bay bidding war.


----------



## bilbo6209

nwavesailor said:


> Bill, it is no doubt a very good or even a GREAT tube.........but...........please do NOT bid until the auction is within mere seconds of ending. You will ultimately only make it more expensive for yourself and others will also be doing last second bidding. You'll think it is yours with 5-10 seconds left in the auction only to have someone come in last second and snag it. In most auctions, the action is in the final seconds if it is a desirable item folks want!
> 
> Edit: Looking at the 'sold' listing for this Philips SQ tube they don't generally sell for huge $$$ so not too high a risk of getting caught in a crazy E-Bay bidding war.


 
 Oh yes I'm well aware of people sniping something out from under you  
  
 Was I correct with my reading of the code?


----------



## Designer79

bilbo6209 said:


> Oh yes I'm well aware of people sniping something out from under you
> 
> Was I correct with my reading of the code?


 
  
 Yeah, the code reading was correct: 7L is the type code for a E88CC tube. 4 is the batch number, which in the "new" code system has no particular meaning. The tipped delta indeed stands for "Made in Heerlen", the 8 stands for 1958 or 1968 I still don't know how to distinguish the decades ... and J for the tube produced in October. Well done!
 All indications there for it NOT being a fake: the 4 embossed lines on top of the glass, the code, and it's a D-getter version. You'll totally enjoy that tube!!


----------



## Guidostrunk

The D getter is a dead giveaway, that it's 58. Also , the stars next to the SQ, are preferred by the Philips aficionados. Very nice tube! The E188CC version is even more sought after. Tighter specs, less microphonics. 
From my experience, I've always preferred the E188CC in SQ. 


designer79 said:


> Yeah, the code reading was correct: 7L is the type code for a E88CC tube. 4 is the batch number, which in the "new" code system has no particular meaning. The tipped delta indeed stands for "Made in Heerlen", the 8 stands for 1958 or 1968 I still don't know how to distinguish the decades ... and J for the tube produced in October. Well done!
> All indications there for it NOT being a fake: the 4 embossed lines on top of the glass, the code, and it's a D-getter version. You'll totally enjoy that tube!!


----------



## bilbo6209

designer79 said:


> Yeah, the code reading was correct: 7L is the type code for a E88CC tube. 4 is the batch number, which in the "new" code system has no particular meaning. The tipped delta indeed stands for "Made in Heerlen", the 8 stands for 1958 or 1968 I still don't know how to distinguish the decades ... and J for the tube produced in October. Well done!
> All indications there for it NOT being a fake: the 4 embossed lines on top of the glass, the code, and it's a D-getter version. You'll totally enjoy that tube!!


 
 The reason I said 1958 is because at least some of the guides I looked at said they were for pre 63 or 66 if I remember correctly. I am hoping to pick it up for a good price  I have a Electro-Harmonix 6922 EH Vacuum Tube on its way and I have an offer in on a tesla also


----------



## bilbo6209

guidostrunk said:


> The D getter is a dead giveaway, that it's 58. Also , the stars next to the SQ, are preferred by the Philips aficionados. Very nice tube! The E188CC version is even more sought after. Tighter specs, less microphonics.
> From my experience, I've always preferred the E188CC in SQ.


 
 Hmm I might need to look for a e188cc I will be listening through IEMs and I know that they will pick up low end hiss if the tube doesn't have a low noise floor.


----------



## Designer79

Cheers fellow audio enthusiasts,
  
 So, I got another tube and this one is rather interesting ... I decided to send the wrongly received AEG back to the seller and instead get the originally ordered "mystery-Valvo". It's a rather special tube, supposedly produced by RFT (Rundfunk- und Fernmelde-Technik) in former East Germany, better known actually for a military-spec EL-34 tube. They supposedly did a lot of OEM-business which also included Philips (hence the Valvo logo) so that's why I couldn't find the standard Philips factory code on it, and why it became clear to me that it wasn't produced in the Radio France Suresnes factory, I previosly assumed "RFT" stood for in the description.
  

  
 It's an interesting tube, first for it's funny "UFO"-Style getter, never seen anything like it.
  

  
 Secondly it has a very different sound signature to either the Tesla and the Philips Miniwatt. Let me explain by comparing with the common EQ-presets.
  
 - The PCC88 Philips Miniwatt : The "Live Club" preset, very intimate sound (focused sound stage) , lush, midrange very present, very pleasant mellow signature.
 - The Tesla E88CC: The "Jazz / R&B" preset, tightens bass and drums a lot, midrange not as present as with the Philips but crystal clear, highly detailed, sparkly highs, good wide sound stage.
 - The RFT-Valvo: The "Linear" preset, this tube seems to add nothing , absolutely nothing in colouring, it seems to do one job only ... pure amplification. It needs to be seen if there is anything happening with burn in, but so far it seems to me it sounds like any good solid state amp should sound. It doesn't add nor takes away anything. Recordings sound pure, original, with decent, not overwhelming sound stage.
  

  
 It's nice to have tubes with quite different signatures, I'll be able to swatch them out according to music genre, mood or just pure fun.
  
 I think I am ready for first explorings into the E188CC / CCA world now ...


----------



## HOWIE13

Listening with my Philips X2 headphones and cannot find a tube that doesn't produce an audible hum on high gain setting. 
 Does anybody know of a tube that provides a quiet, hum free, background with high gain Vali2 using the X2?
 Maybe my Vali2 is faulty but there's no hum on low gain.


----------



## volly

howie13 said:


> Listening with my Philips X2 headphones and cannot find a tube that doesn't produce an audible hum on high gain setting.
> Does anybody know of a tube that provides a quiet, hum free, background with high gain Vali2 using the X2?
> Maybe my Vali2 is faulty but there's no hum on low gain.



Try a telefunken. As I stated before, it's much quieter than the philips but be prepared for some crazy high detail energy as opposed to the relaxed and sensual nature of the philips. Still burning in at the moment.


----------



## Guidostrunk

What Philips tube are you currently using? PCC88, E88CC, or E188CC? 
I've noticed in the past with the E88CC, and PCC88, that they're more prone to noise problems than the E188CC, and CCa tubes. I've been fortunate to never have the latter be noisy. And that includes all the tubes purchased from eBay, including my Valvo CCa's, that I'm currently using. I know that the specs are much tighter as well for the latter.


howie13 said:


> Listening with my Philips X2 headphones and cannot find a tube that doesn't produce an audible hum on high gain setting.
> Does anybody know of a tube that provides a quiet, hum free, background with high gain Vali2 using the X2?
> Maybe my Vali2 is faulty but there's no hum on low gain.


----------



## HOWIE13

Thanks for the replies. I'll source one of those Telefunkens and a CCa.
 The Philips I  have is one of those PCC88 Ei versions.  I also have the Siemens.  They are silent in my other tube amps.
 Unfortunately I need to use high gain for a lot of my Classical stuff.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Here's an opportunity to get a Telefunken E188CC , possibly at a reasonable price. Most won't bid on a re-label. 
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=252282044236&alt=web


----------



## Guidostrunk

Valvo Heerlen E188CC
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=222014965593&alt=web


----------



## HOWIE13

guidostrunk said:


> Valvo Heerlen E188CC
> http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=222014965593&alt=web


 
 Appreciate your help with these tubes. Will try for one of them anyway. Thanks.


----------



## Guidostrunk

No problem my friend. I'll continue to post some nice chances at some great tubes. 



howie13 said:


> Appreciate your help with these tubes. Will try for one of them anyway. Thanks.


----------



## HOWIE13

Any idea what this is about? Seems too cheap to be true!
  
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/E188CC-7308-INDIA-NEW-OLD-STOCK-VALVE-TUBE-O15A-/391295700313?hash=item5b1b0a8d59:gZwAAOSwo6lWINxm


----------



## Guidostrunk

Seems shaky. No gold pins on an E188CC seems strange. I'm curious what the codes are. It's definitely a German tube. I wouldn't be surprised if the seller doesn't give you any info either if you ask. 


howie13 said:


> Any idea what this is about? Seems too cheap to be true!
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/E188CC-7308-INDIA-NEW-OLD-STOCK-VALVE-TUBE-O15A-/391295700313?hash=item5b1b0a8d59:gZwAAOSwo6lWINxm


----------



## bilbo6209

Hey guys, I'm looking at socket savers on fleebay and was wondering if there is any reason to spend more or are the cheap ones from China fine? Most look to be sold in packs of 8+ if I order a pack would anyone be interested in on or two at about what I paid plus shipping?


----------



## bilbo6209

nwavesailor said:


> Bill, it is no doubt a very good or even a GREAT tube.........but...........please do NOT bid until the auction is within mere seconds of ending. You will ultimately only make it more expensive for yourself and others will also be doing last second bidding. You'll think it is yours with 5-10 seconds left in the auction only to have someone come in last second and snag it. In most auctions, the action is in the final seconds if it is a desirable item folks want!
> 
> Edit: Looking at the 'sold' listing for this Philips SQ tube they don't generally sell for huge $$$ so not too high a risk of getting caught in a crazy E-Bay bidding war.


 
 I  put a max of $75 on the tube before I went to bed and it sold for a a little over $100  before I got up so I missed it. 
  
 Um I found this now... I was looking on auditubes.com and saw that the Amperex PQ type or USN-CEP tubes are great! So I searched ebay for USN-CEP and found this  http://www.ebay.com/itm/USN-CEP-6939-Amperex-Neu-aus-altem-Bestand-OVP-NOS-new-own-box-/230980835242?hash=item35c787d7aa:g:N9MAAOSwDN1USE9O are these too good to be true? I took a chance and ordered one. 
  
 Edit: wow I'm an idiot, these are 6939 tubes not 6922 lol that was a $35 mistake. Thankfully it wasn't a huge mistake.


----------



## nwavesailor

Oh, well, we have ALL made a mistake or 2 while hunting for tubes! I thought perhaps there was a 'new' (old) tube I hadn't heard of for the use in the Vali 2.
  
 I have USN CEP 7308's and they are quite good in the Vali 2.


----------



## bilbo6209

nwavesailor said:


> Oh, well, we have ALL made a mistake or 2 while hunting for tubes! I thought perhaps there was a 'new' (old) tube I hadn't heard of for the use in the Vali 2.
> 
> I have USN CEP 7308's and they are quite good in the Vali 2.


 
 I just won a 7308 white label amperex USA made, it wasn't NOS but scored very high (new or higher) on the sellers tester, so it shod be pretty good. If I like it I will cough up the dough for  a NOS USN-CEP or white label amperex USA


----------



## nwavesailor

bilbo6209 said:


> I just won a 7308 white label amperex USA made, it wasn't NOS but scored very high (new or higher) on the sellers tester, so it shod be pretty good. If I like it I will cough up the dough for  a NOS USN-CEP or white label amperex USA


 
 Very cool! Looks like it may have been a PQ.
  
 You should really like it in your Vali 2. IMO, It is a great 7308 tube.


----------



## bilbo6209

nwavesailor said:


> Very cool! Looks like it may have been a PQ.
> 
> You should really like it in your Vali 2. IMO, It is a great 7308 tube.


 
 From what I read on Audiotubes.com it look like the 7308 is at least equal to the PQ tubes who knows  I'll find out when tubes get here. I have the following coming... 1 Electro-Harmonix 6922 EH, 1 used (testing it shows it is between excelent and NIB) Amperex PQ 7308, 2 ECC88 1967 Tesla tubes, and one screwup USN-CEP 6939 Amperex


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Any idea what this is about? Seems too cheap to be true!
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/E188CC-7308-INDIA-NEW-OLD-STOCK-VALVE-TUBE-O15A-/391295700313?hash=item5b1b0a8d59:gZwAAOSwo6lWINxm


 
  
 The seller says "India". Could be BEL, made in India; yet another plant with Philips tech.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> The seller says "India". Could be BEL, made in India; yet another plant with Philips tech.


 
 I pulled the trigger. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Didn't think had anything to lose at the price, UK seller so no customs fees and can return if not happy.
 Fingers crossed no hum and nice sound.


----------



## Oskari

guidostrunk said:


> Here's an opportunity to get a Telefunken E188CC , possibly at a reasonable price. Most won't bid on a re-label.
> http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=252282044236&alt=web




I get Tesla vibes.


----------



## jaywillin

guidostrunk said:


> Here's an opportunity to get a Telefunken E188CC , possibly at a reasonable price. Most won't bid on a re-label.
> http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=252282044236&alt=web


 
  
  


oskari said:


> I get Tesla vibes.


 
  
 until i ran across this http://www.ebay.com/itm/221977116571?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
 i never thought of telefunken as having any rebranded tubes, just never occurred to me
 other than the diamond on the bottom, and having bought a lot of tubes from mercedesman and feeling safe about buying from him, i pulled the trigger.
 now i don't know enough about tube identification for me to say if this tube is an authentic tele, i do know it sounds very nice, i'm listening to it now


----------



## volly

Hi guys, just an update on the tube rolling.
  
 Today, I've received my Siemens PCC 88 tube, and on first impressions is that it shares many of the same traits as the Philips, which I truly adore to this day.
  
 I tried the Telefunken for a good week but didn't gel with me. Either I received a dud or it did not synergise well with my setup. Came away a touch too neutral.
  
 The Siemens is my last tube for a while until I can find a few more. 
  
 I'll keep in touch!
  
 Note: Tube markings/etchings: DJ8 #3J "Not sure on the hash tag, my eyes are poor!"DJ8 ≠ 3JDJ8 ≠ 3J


----------



## volly

Sweet Jesus....
  
 If you love your Philips and you never EVER want to part with it, DO NOT listen to the Siemens!
  
 I'm stunned...


----------



## Skarecrow77

volly said:


> Sweet Jesus....
> 
> If you love your Philips and you never EVER want to part with it, DO NOT listen to the Siemens!
> 
> I'm stunned...


 
  
 I do indeed love my Philips. I'm curious how the Siemens compares exactly?


----------



## Guidostrunk

Soundstage monsters. Some prefer it to the Heerlen. I've had 2 pairs of Siemens CCa's. To my ears , they can't sniff my Valvo Heerlen CCa's. Get a good Heerlen tube and everything else becomes obsolete.  
YMMV though.


skarecrow77 said:


> I do indeed love my Philips. I'm curious how the Siemens compares exactly?


----------



## Guidostrunk

56 Eindhoven or 56 on up Heerlen E188CC or Valvo CCa, is the cats ass. Pinched waist Eindhoven or Heerlen, includes the tail. 


guidostrunk said:


> Soundstage monsters. Some prefer it to the Heerlen. I've had 2 pairs of Siemens CCa's. To my ears , they can't sniff my Valvo Heerlen CCa's. Get a good Heerlen tube and everything else becomes obsolete.
> YMMV though.


----------



## shotgunshane

Got a link for decent priced valvo?


----------



## Guidostrunk

At the moment, there's nothing reasonable on ebay. But if you're vigilant, you can find deals like this.
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=201475388254&alt=web 
I have a saved search for this particular tube. Deals pop up constantly. 
Cheers


shotgunshane said:


> Got a link for decent priced valvo?


----------



## Guidostrunk

Here you go folks. 1957 Heerlen pinched waist. Good luck.

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=262295594229&alt=web


----------



## Guidostrunk

If anyone is looking for the ultimate warm tube. Here you go. It's been a while since I've seen a gold pin Mullard Blackburn. Especially one from 1961. 
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=231850299318&alt=web

Edit: That auction is misleading. After looking at it a second time and reading the actual code. It's not a Blackburn. It's from the Mitcham plant. And I believe it's actually from 1971.


----------



## HOWIE13

howie13 said:


> Any idea what this is about? Seems too cheap to be true!


 
 Here's the tube it sounds very good, and indeed very quiet.  It was very cheap for an E188CC but doesn't have gold pins. Seller says made in India and the only marking is E188CC/7308 in white print. No other marks and plain bottom between the pins. Soundwise even betters my ECC88 'Bugle Boy' with a wider sound stage and sweeter treble and maybe deeper bass, not sure about that yet.
 Anyone any thoughts, ideas ?


----------



## Guidostrunk

I'm guessing it's a German tube. The spikes on the micas seem to indicate that. It has silver plates as well so I'm guessing it was produced after 1965. Hard to say about it being e188cc. I would guess not because of the pins. 
Hope that helps.


howie13 said:


> Here's the tube it's very nice sounding, and indeed very quiet.  I would like to think it's a genuine E188CC but it was very cheap for an E188CC and doesn't have gold pins which, it appears, makes it most unlikely. Seller says made in India and the only marking is E188CC/7308 in white print. No other marks and plain bottom between the pins. Soundwise not dissimilar to my ECC88 'Bugle Boy' but a wider sound stage and sweeter treble. Maybe deeper bass, not sure about that yet.
> Anyone any thoughts, ideas ?


----------



## HOWIE13

Thanks Guidostrunk.
 It sounds very good anyway.


----------



## Oskari

guidostrunk said:


> I'm guessing it's a German tube.




Philips tooling, so could only be Valvo or Siemens if German. Either would have a code to tell the story.

I'd still go for BEL because seller indicates Indian manufacture.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Philips tooling, so could only be Valvo or Siemens if German. Either would have a code to tell the story.
> 
> I'd still go for BEL because seller indicates Indian manufacture.


 
 Thanks for mentioning BEL. I tried to find out about them but they seem shrouded in mystery. They apparently had links to Philips and Mullard but people argue as to the exact nature of the relationships. They also had a distinctive logo and 'made in India' printed on the few tubes I've seen on the Internet images. 
 By all accounts they seemed to make some good tubes but I can't find any reference to an E188CC. There's definitely no other marks on this tube so if there were any they must have rubbed off.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Thanks for mentioning BEL. I tried to find out about them but they seem shrouded in mystery. They apparently had links to Philips and Mullard but people argue as to the exact nature of the relationship.




Mullard was "Philips UK" anyway.


"Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) was established at Bangalore, India, by the Government of India under the Ministry of Defence in 1954 to meet the specialised electronic needs of the Indian defence services."

http://www.bel-india.com/


http://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?company_id=9897

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_Electronics


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Mullard was "Philips UK" anyway.
> 
> 
> "Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) was established at Bangalore, India, by the Government of India under the Ministry of Defence in 1954 to meet the specialised electronic needs of the Indian defence services."
> ...


 
 Thanks, but so little info about the tubes they made. I can't find anything on E188CC. I would have thought there would be a huge market for radio tubes in a country with such a big population as India. Maybe they bought a lot of tubes from Europe


----------



## Guidostrunk

Folks, I truly hope one of you can steal this tube. 1956 Valvo Heerlen CCa Pinched waist. 
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=291688901583&alt=web


----------



## Guidostrunk

This guy just posted a ton of tubes. Here's another gem!
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=291688904570&alt=web


----------



## volly

howie13 said:


> Thanks, but so little info about the tubes they made. I can't find anything on E188CC. I would have thought there would be a huge market for radio tubes in a country with such a big population as India. Maybe they bought a lot of tubes from Europe


 
 Hey Howie, can you check the top of the tube for seams? 
  
 If it has four seams at the top then it "might" be a Siemens?
  
 Hope you're enjoying the tube mate!


----------



## GrouchoMarx1933

I don't need any more tubes but...they're on my watch list anyway.


----------



## HOWIE13

volly said:


> Hey Howie, can you check the top of the tube for seams?
> 
> If it has four seams at the top then it "might" be a Siemens?
> 
> Hope you're enjoying the tube mate!


 
 Cheers Volly.
 Yes it has four distinct seams.
 Was listening to it again this morning, this time in Ember, and it sounds very good, extremely well balanced and refined.


----------



## HOWIE13

merrick said:


> I don't need any more tubes but...they're on my watch list anyway


 
 Very tempted too but not in mood for auctions just now.


----------



## Designer79

howie13 said:


> Cheers Volly.
> Yes it has four distinct seams.
> Was listening to it again this morning, this time in Ember, and it sounds very good, extremely well balanced and refined.


 
  
 I don't want to cause too much confusion, but the 4 seams would indicate Philips as well, so there might be the link BEL - Philips tooling. My Philips Miniwatt PCC88 has the 4 seams, as well as other Philips I've seen in online auctions ...


----------



## bilbo6209

I cant wait my Vali 2 and Modi 2Uber should be here Wednesday!!!!
  
 I already have a 6922 EH off Amazon and an Amperex US made 7803 PQ in hand vr5 *3? (rubbed off I think. I can only read the *3) ready to roll into it!! And 2 Tesla ECC88 made in Yugoslavia 1967 (32 factory) in route from Europe.
  
 So I should have some fun playing with tubes and seeing what sounds best with my Shure SE 535's 
  
 Between the Vali2/Modi 2 and all the bits for my Car PC to hook up and play high quality FLAC directly to the Amp (screen, gps, radio tuner ect) I have a ton of fun goodies coming in the next week or so.


----------



## btalcox0715

Well I can't post images yet, but I'll post a link. Rolled the dice and bought those Tesla E88CC off eBay, 2 tubes for $30. Was skeptical because the lack of information and poor angles of the tubes. But after 3 weeks, they arrived and appear to be legit. Flat top, dark nickel plated shielding, yellow lettering, UL date code (which I believe is 1972), and gold pins. Woohoo!
  
 http://imgur.com/a/BaiEq


----------



## Designer79

They look legit indeed. Hope you'll enjoy their signature sound!

Cheers


----------



## TooPoor

Looking for a tube ~$50 for my Vali2 + TH-X00. Something to tighten up the bass and smooth out the highs. With so many options, I don't know where to start!


----------



## Skarecrow77

toopoor said:


> Looking for a tube ~$50 for my Vali2 + TH-X00. Something to tighten up the bass and smooth out the highs. With so many options, I don't know where to start!


 
  
 For what it's worth on my NAD HP50s and PSB M4U1s, my Phillips (Ei, not Herleen) PCC88/7DJ8 did exactly what you're asking for, at least compared to my stock tube. (granted, my stock tube was probably one of the worst ones shipped, or so I believe based on previous discussions in this and the main vali 2 thread)
  
 Bass is textured and controlled. It has let's say maybe 90% of the impact I'd like, but it's so sophisticated that I can live with the "almost-but-not-quite" impact.
  
 Highs are very detailed, but sweet not harsh. They act as an extension of, and compliment to, the midrange... never overpowering the mids.
  
 The mids and mid-bass are so so sweet. Bass guitars and acoustic guitars are especially magical.

 Oh, and the soundstage and separation of instruments has to be heard to be believed. It's voodoo I swear.

 I got my Philips / Ei PCC88 for $45 ($5 upcharge for tightly matched triodes) from upscale audio. I was also considering their National/Matsush!ta PCC88 which sells a bit cheaper, and their Pope PCC88 and BEL E88CC, which sell for slightly more.


----------



## nwavesailor

Sorry.................... there are classified's for selling tubes so I'll put my 9 pin tubes in an ad!


----------



## Designer79

toopoor said:


> Looking for a tube ~$50 for my Vali2 + TH-X00. Something to tighten up the bass and smooth out the highs. With so many options, I don't know where to start!


 
  
 My suggestion would be to check out the Tesla's E88CC, you can find first impressions on page 5 of this thread. This tube helped mellow out the highs even for my infamous treble happy Beyerdynamic T90. Tightens bass a lot, giving drums a heightened presence. It's absolutely possible getting this tube on eBay for around $35 ... Or check out @nwavesailor's ad in the classified's, see post above.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Something worth keeping an eye on. http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=262311482902&alt=web


----------



## Guidostrunk

Possibly, a once in a lifetime tube. Never seen a Philips , (Heerlen?) 45 degree, pinched waist square getter. http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=201531483511&alt=web


----------



## RickB

I've been using the stock tube with my Vali 2 since I got it two months ago. Today I got and installed my first alternate tube, an Electro-Harmonix  6CG7. After about an hour the sound got really smoooooooth. It's still bright and detailed, but there is no harshness whatsoever. The bass is stronger, too. I don't know if I like it more than the stock tube, I need to listen to it for a few days.


----------



## Skarecrow77

guidostrunk said:


> Something worth keeping an eye on. http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=262311482902&alt=web


 
  
 ... I won it for $1.
  
 I have no words.

 Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## Guidostrunk

I'm super curious about this tube. Looking forward to your impressions. What a steal bro! Let it burn in a good bit before you make any decisions. 



skarecrow77 said:


> ... I won it for $1.
> 
> I have no words.
> 
> ...


----------



## tomb

designer79 said:


> Cheers fellow audio enthusiasts,
> 
> So, I got another tube and this one is rather interesting ... I decided to send the wrongly received AEG back to the seller and instead get the originally ordered "mystery-Valvo". It's a rather special tube, supposedly produced by RFT (Rundfunk- und Fernmelde-Technik) in former East Germany, better known actually for a military-spec EL-34 tube. They supposedly did a lot of OEM-business which also included Philips (hence the Valvo logo) so that's why I couldn't find the standard Philips factory code on it, and why it became clear to me that it wasn't produced in the Radio France Suresnes factory, I previosly assumed "RFT" stood for in the description.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That "UFO" getter (I called it that, too) is more common that one would think.  I once purchased a few hundred 6J6's that were made in Japan.  They all had the "UFO" getter, exactly as shown above.


----------



## Skarecrow77

guidostrunk said:


> I'm super curious about this tube. Looking forward to your impressions. What a steal bro! Let it burn in a good bit before you make any decisions.


 
  
 I've got a Philips PCC88 made in Ei as my primary tube right now. Really curious to hear how a miniwatt PCC88 (pinched waist no less) compares.


----------



## MtnMan307

My Vali 2 came with a pretty nice sounding tube, not sure of the brand since it just says "6BQ7A".  Very strong, detailed mids and a pretty neutral sound signature.
  
 I just got a used Amperex "Bugle Boy" 6DJ8 on eBay for 19 bucks.  It sounds all right, a little more bass than stock, but I need to A/B the two some more.
  
 Poked around on eBay some more today and ordered an Orange Label Amperex for $13.  Supposed to be NOS and I'm excited to hear this one.


----------



## mynamesjeff

Just did a blind buy on an Electro Harmonix 6922 Gold Pin. 
 Do you reckon it will be an upgrade from the stock tube that i got from Schiit?


----------



## nwavesailor

mynamesjeff said:


> Just did a blind buy on an Electro Harmonix 6922 Gold Pin.
> Do you reckon it will be an upgrade from the stock tube that i got from Schiit?


 

 Yep!
  
 Not to best of the best by any means but, IMO, a nice inexpensive step up from most stock tubes shipped with the V-2


----------



## Tuneslover

nwavesailor said:


> Yep!
> 
> Not to best of the best by any means but, IMO, a nice inexpensive step up from most stock tubes shipped with the V-2


 
 I have the non-gold pin Electro Harmonix 6922EH version and I find it a bit muddy sounding.  I had the "standard" JJ E88CC and decided to get the gold pin (& balanced triode) version and it's a very noticeable improvement.  Is there a decent improvement with the EH6922 non-gold vs. gold pin?


----------



## Skarecrow77

guidostrunk said:


> I'm super curious about this tube. Looking forward to your impressions. What a steal bro! Let it burn in a good bit before you make any decisions.


 
  
 Tube came in while I was out of town. couldn't resist putting it in right away and listening as soon as I got home. It was classified as used, not NOS, so it's got to have some burn-in already, I assume.
  
 Problem is I haven't listened to the Ei PCC88 in a week, so I'm going from memory here. First thought is "wow, that Ei is a tremendous deal, it keeps up pretty well with this one." I'm pretty sure this is better, but I need more listening time to elaborate exactly why.


----------



## Skarecrow77

About 2 hours of listening later, and I'm getting a better handle on what's different. This is mostly going to be a straight-up A vs B comparison:

 Pros: The "pinchet waist" Made in Holland (I assume Herleen, I haven't found the Philips code on the tube yet, too much of a hurry to get it in the amp, but the seller claimed it was a Delta) tube is more controlled in the midrange than the Ei tube. There are certain songs that it just plain reproduces better than the Ei, like Muse - Map of the Problematique or Simon & Garfunkel - Cecilia. The Ei sound is just too much for those songs, almost "oversaturated". The best analogy I can come up with is with the Ei it's like if you put enough sugar in your coffee it eventually ends up tasting like diesel fuel. The Herleen tube may also be slightly better with acoustic guitars (which the Ei was already really good with). I really like what it does with Pearl Jam - Man of the Hour, and Nirvana - The Man who sold the World, both songs are a little bit more "live" with the Herleen tube for some reason. It's clean, it's polite, it's pretty, it's resolving. The Secondary instruments resolve even better than the Ei (which, again, was already good at that). The Herleen tube is just a tiny bit better at instrument texture as well. 

 Cons: The "magic soundstage" of the Ei isn't as present in the Herleen tube. The soundstage will show up IF the song was well recorded and has a huge soundstage "built-in" (examples: MJ - Thriller, Commercial Hippies - Stranger Things, and Eagles - Hotel California Live), but the tube won't voodoo a massive soundstage in to every song like the Ei tube does. The Herleen tube is just plain more laid back than the Ei tube as well. Without that midrange "oversaturation" I mentioned earlier, the Herleen tube just doesn't rock the same. The toe tapping factor seems reduced. The Guitars in Kalmah - Burbot's Revenge and In Flames - The Jester Race are cleaner and easier to distinguish than with the Ei tube... but the songs just don't get up and ROCK the same way. The bass slam on the Herleen is maybe about 95% of the Ei. Where the Ei was a solid "B+" effort, the Herleen is a "B"... bass slam is reduced just enough to be noticeable. The reduction in midrange saturation and bass presence means that the super sweet mid-bass of the Ei isn't there either. Pink Floyd - Another Brick in the Wall Pt. 1 has Roger Waters' bass guitar be "just a part" of the mix, rather than front and center "on display" as I think was intended. Overall the "engaging" quality just isn't there like with the Ei tube, the Herleen is TOO polite.

 I'm actually kind of dissapointed so far. I was expecting the Herleen tube to be a sort of "everything the Ei tube does well, pushed up a notch, maybe cleaned up as well" and instead I got a side-grade tube. It's different, handles some things better, but I feel like I may actually find myself using the Ei more often. The Ei has its flaws, but it's more fun. Again, it makes me double down on recommending the Ei tubes to Vali 2 owners. They're a steal at $40 (I paid an extra $5 for "platinum" triode matching).

 Granted, this is with only about 2 hours on the Herleen tube in my amp. I have no idea how many hours were on it previous to my getting it. 1?, 10?, 100?, 1000? No clue. Also I'm over 100 hours of "ear time" on the Ei, so my brain may just be preferring it for that reason too. I'll give the Herleen more time to prove itself. As I understand it, the pinched waist Herleen 6DJ8 family are supposed to be highly sought after tubes, so this thing deserves its chance. If anything major improves, I'll come back and detail the changes.

 edit: 8 more hours of burn-in later, and I may have given the miniwatt an unfair review. the Bass slam/presence has increased by a noticeable amount. It may already be better than the Ei. Midrange has stepped forward too. not as much as the Ei (yet?) but enough so that the "politeness" that was hampering the "rocking ability" may not be a problem anymore. The toe-tapping quality is back. Can't wait to see what this thing is like at 50 hours or so.


----------



## Mumbles06

Business trip to Phoenix yielded great results.

Gonna be a few days before I get home and start burning them in.
Bottom is a Phillips USA 6922 NOS Army/Navy surplus. Not sure the year. Arizona HiFi had a great selection of tubes and gear and were very friendly if anybody ever ends up in Phoenix. Great record store next door as well.


----------



## Guidostrunk

To be fair. It is a PCC88. It's a 6dj8 substitute, but it's different internally(7v vs 6.3v). Give it some more time. Even if it was used, it probably sat dormant for some time. If no changes by the 30 to 50 hour mark, then it is what it is. In my experience with the PCC88, although not pinched waist. The thing they lacked was Soundstage, compared to the E188CC/E88CC, variants. They did holography well though. 
If and when they open up, the soundstage , and dimensionality should increase a good bit. Keep us posted bro.


skarecrow77 said:


> About 2 hours of listening later, and I'm getting a better handle on what's different. This is mostly going to be a straight-up A vs B comparison:
> 
> 
> Pros: The "pinchet waist" Made in Holland (I assume Herleen, I haven't found the Philips code on the tube yet, too much of a hurry to get it in the amp, but the seller claimed it was a Delta) tube is more controlled in the midrange than the Ei tube. There are certain songs that it just plain reproduces better than the Ei, like Muse - Map of the Problematique or Simon & Garfunkel - Cecilia. The Ei sound is just too much for those songs, almost "oversaturated". The best analogy I can come up with is with the Ei it's like if you put enough sugar in your coffee it eventually ends up tasting like diesel fuel. The Herleen tube may also be slightly better with acoustic guitars (which the Ei was already really good with). I really like what it does with Pearl Jam - Man of the Hour, and Nirvana - The Man who sold the World, both songs are a little bit more "live" with the Herleen tube for some reason. It's clean, it's polite, it's pretty, it's resolving. The Secondary instruments resolve even better than the Ei (which, again, was already good at that). The Herleen tube is just a tiny bit better at instrument texture as well.
> ...


----------



## RubberduckzillA

I have a Vali2 arriving Tuesday I got it direct from schiit EU store, are there any stock tubes I should be concerned about? Also are there any recommended tubes to pair with it? I game a lot on my rig but I do listen to a lot of music, mainly in the metal, power metal and symphonic progressive metal genres. Not sure if that matters or not very new to the audiophile game.


----------



## MtnMan307

So far I really like the orange label Amperex. Shop around on eBay and you can probably find a decent one for under $20, actually a lot of choices for pretty cheap.


----------



## Skarecrow77

Ebay is a crapshoot. You can luck out and get a rare tube cheap (I did), or you can get involved in a bidding war for a mediocre tube. Most of the Ebay tubes aren't tested as well as web-based tube retailers. You've got no idea what kind of microphonics you're getting, how well matched the triodes are, whether "NOS" really means "NOS" or just "not used that much". 
  
 The well known retailers are knowledgeable, test well, and have reputations to protect. Unless you're trying to score a $150 tube for $20 (in which Ebay is your only recourse), I'd go with some of the better deals from tube retailers. You can find lesser known brand names like Pope or Bel that are just renamed Philips etc... or you can find tube models fully compatible with the vali 2 (PCC88/7DJ8 is the big one) that sell for half of what their 6DJ8/6922 counterparts sell for...
  
 For what it's worth (considering I'm still a newb myself, who simply reads the hell out of other people's opinions here and elsewhere) if I were starting again from scratch I'd probably be looking at the $20 ElectroHarmonix 6922 for my "dirt cheap" option, the $40 Philips PCC88 for my midrange price option, or the $70 Bel E88CC for my higher price option... or MAYBE the Telefunken E88CC for the "tube that costs as much as the Amp" option... but at that point I might be trying my hand at crapshooting on Ebay for a $150 tube that nobody else bids on (it does happen. it happened to me).


----------



## nwavesailor

mtnman307 said:


> So far I really like the orange label Amperex. Shop around on eBay and you can probably find a decent one for under $20, actually a lot of choices for pretty cheap.


 

 Yep, I am a fan of Amperex tubes and love the Amperex 'house' sound.
  
 Kind of off on a wild tangent with 'other than 9 pin' 6 volt tubes in the V-2 at this point though...........tried quite a few 6SN7 & 6F8G, then these French 6J5G...........stunning sound from these tubes!


----------



## volly

nwavesailor said:


> Yep, I am a fan of Amperex tubes and love the Amperex 'house' sound.
> 
> Kind of off on a wild tangent with 'other than 9 pin' 6 volt tubes in the V-2 at this point though...........tried quite a few 6SN7 & 6F8G, then these French 6J5G...........stunning sound from these tubes!


 
 Holy Moly.....Vali 2 Uber!


----------



## volly

skarecrow77 said:


> Ebay is a crapshoot. You can luck out and get a rare tube cheap (I did), or you can get involved in a bidding war for a mediocre tube. Most of the Ebay tubes aren't tested as well as web-based tube retailers. You've got no idea what kind of microphonics you're getting, how well matched the triodes are, whether "NOS" really means "NOS" or just "not used that much".
> 
> The well known retailers are knowledgeable, test well, and have reputations to protect. Unless you're trying to score a $150 tube for $20 (in which Ebay is your only recourse), I'd go with some of the better deals from tube retailers. You can find lesser known brand names like Pope or Bel that are just renamed Philips etc... or you can find tube models fully compatible with the vali 2 (PCC88/7DJ8 is the big one) that sell for half of what their 6DJ8/6922 counterparts sell for...
> 
> For what it's worth (considering I'm still a newb myself, who simply reads the hell out of other people's opinions here and elsewhere) if I were starting again from scratch I'd probably be looking at the $20 ElectroHarmonix 6922 for my "dirt cheap" option, the $40 Philips PCC88 for my midrange price option, or the $70 Bel E88CC for my higher price option... or MAYBE the Telefunken E88CC for the "tube that costs as much as the Amp" option... but at that point I might be trying my hand at crapshooting on Ebay for a $150 tube that nobody else bids on (it does happen. it happened to me).


 
  
 I agree with Skarecrow, be cautious but have fun and remember to not totally get enthralled with other members experience cause it could differ to yours!


----------



## MtnMan307

Skarecrow is right.  I haven't been burned too bad on eBay but I did pay $18 for another tube that is not as good, used Bugle Boy.  You are generally better off with the real tube retailers.  I have bought 4 tubes on on eBay but would probably go with a Philips PCC88 or Genalex Gold Lion in the $40 range if I were buying my first tube right now.


----------



## mynamesjeff

Holy Crap! Just received the Electro Harmonix 6922 Gold Pin. Fired it up and OMG this thing is incredible. Night and day difference between it and the stock tube i got from Schiit. 
 Really brings out a better thicker sound with more pronounced mids and highs. And that bass slam is pretty much more prominent. I'm pretty bad at describing things but wow So that is what a tube amp sounds like? Loved listening to the Sultans of Swing end solo and Pearl Jams' Alive (2004 Remix) end solo with this tube and my HD600s. Just really love the thicker sound this tube brings to the Vali 2.
  
 Can't compare this with the non gold version but man all i have to say is i'm really really glad i bought this Tube! EH6922 Gold FTW!


----------



## RubberduckzillA

I've just foudn a uk based retailer called hotrox they have the electroharmonix one with a gold pin. Also how easy is it to install these things? I'm a techy so I imagine I can easily do it


----------



## Currawong

rubberduckzilla said:


> I've just foudn a uk based retailer called hotrox they have the electroharmonix one with a gold pin. Also how easy is it to install these things? I'm a techy so I imagine I can easily do it


 

 About the only thing is that the sockets are fairly tight, otherwise there's nothing to it except applying steady, firm pressure.
  
 You seem to be worrying a lot. See how you go with everything you've ordered.


----------



## Skarecrow77

guidostrunk said:


> To be fair. It is a PCC88. It's a 6dj8 substitute, but it's different internally(7v vs 6.3v). Give it some more time. Even if it was used, it probably sat dormant for some time. If no changes by the 30 to 50 hour mark, then it is what it is. In my experience with the PCC88, although not pinched waist. The thing they lacked was Soundstage, compared to the E188CC/E88CC, variants. They did holography well though.
> If and when they open up, the soundstage , and dimensionality should increase a good bit. Keep us posted bro.


 
  
 hit the 50 hour mark a few minutes ago. Been listening to the Tube all evening. It's a GOOD tube. The bass improved, the midrange improved, the soundstage improved a bit...

 But I'm back to the Ei. I really am. It's just... something about it's synergy with my NAD HP50 headphones. Yes the midrange is a hair on the "fat" side of the oversaturated line, but man when it works it REALLY works... and it works more often than not.
  
 And that Ei soundstage... It's crack, I can't get enough of it.

 Maybe one day I can find both the delicacy, accuracy, and precision of the Herleen tube and the sweet sweet midrange and crazy addictive soundstage of the Ei in one tube. Till that day, I'm using the cheaper tube, lol.

 That said, I see a pair of orthos (either the Oppo PM-3 or HiFiman 400i) in my future in a year or so. The Herleen will get another shot when those show up! It's all about which tube synergizes better.

 Again, I can't recommend highly enough that any Vali 2 owner looking for a tube in the $40 range try the Philips PCC88 tubes made by Ei in Yugoslavia. Really they're something special.


----------



## vcmusik

So I finally got my Ei Philips PCC88 from the ebay seller after it was stuck in shipping limbo for about a week. 
  
 It's still in the wee hours of burn-in, but I'm starting to like it over the stock tube already. The differences so far have been kind of subtle, I've had to listen critically to really notice it, but I'm sure they'll become more apparent with burn-in. So far, mids sound more full and sweeter, and highs less rolled off than the stock tube. Cymbals, high strings and female vocals seem to have more energy and fullness. One thing I will say is that it has weaker sub-bass/bass than the stock tube, but I'm hoping that will change. It just feels like the low end is a bit recessed, maybe the lack of low end is exactly what's making the mids/highs feel more prominent. 
  
 I should note that my tube is probably not as high-grade as Scarecrow777's as I got mine for $15 (with free shipping) on ebay, vs. his from Upscale Audio and paid a little extra for "Platinum Grade", so I basically expected to get what I paid for in comparison. Still a great tube. Will report back after more burn-in!


----------



## Skarecrow77

vcmusik said:


> So I finally got my Ei Philips PCC88 from the ebay seller after it was stuck in shipping limbo for about a week.
> 
> It's still in the wee hours of burn-in, but I'm starting to like it over the stock tube already. The differences so far have been kind of subtle, I've had to listen critically to really notice it, but I'm sure they'll become more apparent with burn-in. So far, mids sound more full and sweeter, and highs less rolled off than the stock tube. Cymbals, high strings and female vocals seem to have more energy and fullness. One thing I will say is that it has weaker sub-bass/bass than the stock tube, but I'm hoping that will change. It just feels like the low end is a bit recessed, maybe the lack of low end is exactly what's making the mids/highs feel more prominent.
> 
> I should note that my tube is probably not as high-grade as Scarecrow777's as I got mine for $15 (with free shipping) on ebay, vs. his from Upscale Audio and paid a little extra for "Platinum Grade", so I basically expected to get what I paid for in comparison. Still a great tube. Will report back after more burn-in!


 
  
 It took about 8-10 hours for the bass to show up on mine.
  
 Everything else was there from the start, and simply got more refined over time.


----------



## pieman3141

What's the clipping point of the Vali 2? I have a variable DAC that I'm using as a preamp, so I've set the Vali 2 at 50% volume, and I'm using the DAC as the actual volume knob (it's analogue). The DAC outputs a max of 2V on the RCA jacks, so I'm lowering that to ... something lower (it's a DacMini, so 2 O'clock is the supposed "unity gain"). Is this a good way to do things? Should I have the volume on the Vali higher or lower?

Edit: Crap. I think I posted in the wrong thread.


----------



## Letmebefrank

rubberduckzilla said:


> I have a Vali2 arriving Tuesday I got it direct from schiit EU store, are there any stock tubes I should be concerned about? Also are there any recommended tubes to pair with it? I game a lot on my rig but I do listen to a lot of music, mainly in the metal, power metal and symphonic progressive metal genres. Not sure if that matters or not very new to the audiophile game.




I listen to some prog metal and heavy metal with my Vali 2, and my favorite tube so far is the 6922 electro harmonix.


----------



## RubberduckzillA

letmebefrank said:


> I listen to some prog metal and heavy metal with my Vali 2, and my favorite tube so far is the 6922 electro harmonix.


 

 I ended up getting that tube a few days ago, fully agree with you!


----------



## Tuneslover

rubberduckzilla said:


> I ended up getting that tube a few days ago, fully agree with you!




Gold tip? I have the standard EH6922 and while not too bad sounding I find its kind of muddy sounding.


----------



## RubberduckzillA

tuneslover said:


> Gold tip? I have the standard EH6922 and while not too bad sounding I find its kind of muddy sounding.


 

 Yea Gold one


----------



## Denosha

mynamesjeff said:


> Holy Crap! Just received the Electro Harmonix 6922 Gold Pin. Fired it up and OMG this thing is incredible. Night and day difference between it and the stock tube i got from Schiit.
> Really brings out a better thicker sound with more pronounced mids and highs. And that bass slam is pretty much more prominent. I'm pretty bad at describing things but wow So that is what a tube amp sounds like? Loved listening to the Sultans of Swing end solo and Pearl Jams' Alive (2004 Remix) end solo with this tube and my HD600s. Just really love the thicker sound this tube brings to the Vali 2.
> 
> Can't compare this with the non gold version but man all i have to say is i'm really really glad i bought this Tube! EH6922 Gold FTW!


 
  
 Got mine last week, the gold version as well. Had the same out of the box same reaction as you, it just opens everything up (on my Shure SRH1540 at least)! Haven't put too many hours on the tube yet so the sound is probably still evolving. I don't think the stock tubes were really that bad to begin with? I thought they sounded pretty good when i tested the freshly unboxed Vali 2 briefly with my LCD2 and Beyer T1 before the amp headed off to my office desk. But the EH 6922 Gold is just noticeably better, and for not a lot of money. Highly recommended!


----------



## Darien

Hey I'm looking to get a vali 2 in the near future...so which tube do you guys think is the most recommended for someone who wants the most warm and pleasurable sound...think: liquid honey.


----------



## rgmffn

darien said:


> Hey I'm looking to get a vali 2 in the near future...so which tube do you guys think is the most recommended for someone who wants the most warm and pleasurable sound...think: liquid honey.


 
 With that description, I would recommend the Tesla E88CC/6922.  It's mellow sounding to me.  It's not my cup of tea, I like something a bit edgier, but I'm sure there are others who really like it.  Let others chime in.


----------



## Darien

rgmffn said:


> With that description, I would recommend the Tesla E88CC/6922.  It's mellow sounding to me.  It's not my cup of tea, I like something a bit edgier, but I'm sure there are others who really like it.  Let others chime in.




Cool thanks, so would I want gold grade, platinum or driver buffer grade?


----------



## Darien

Btw I'm reading more about tubes, pretty fascinating how they used to use them in TVs and all kinds of stuff...so do the tubes work like a fuse or what do they do technically? Also since this nos stuff is made from years ago and new tubes suck, does that mean the price will keep going up as the supply dries up??? Does that mean I should hurry up and buy a life time supply of these tubes lol?

Ridiculous that it's 2016 and they can't make tubes as good as tubes from many years ago 

I guess good thing about the vali 2 is only has 1 tube to worry about so I can buy a bunch and just one at a time 

I am trying to save Money though, u guys think the vali 2 is significantly better than the bravo v2? I head a lot of schiit stuff is overpriced/over hyped - I saw some guys Say that they are the Apple of the audiophile world lol and quite a few people say that they couldn't hear a difference between the vali and the magni.


----------



## Darien

Also I saw barnucles say he didn't hear much difference between an o2 and a woo wa7 tube amp...so what's up with that? I thought tube amps make the sound warmer so it should have sounded a little different versus an o2 right??


----------



## RickB

darien said:


> Btw I'm reading more about tubes, pretty fascinating how they used to use them in TVs and all kinds of stuff...so do the tubes work like a fuse or what do they do technically? Also since this nos stuff is made from years ago and new tubes suck, does that mean the price will keep going up as the supply dries up??? Does that mean I should hurry up and buy a life time supply of these tubes lol?
> 
> Ridiculous that it's 2016 and they can't make tubes as good as tubes from many years ago
> 
> ...


 
  
 If Schiit Audio were the Apple of the audiophile world, the Vali 2 would cost $800.


----------



## Darien

rickb said:


> If Schiit Audio were the Apple of the audiophile world, the Vali 2 would cost $800.


 
 right on lol - so with tube amps will the difference be noticable? i know some people are anti-tube and want clear detailed sound but i really like the idea of tube amps and i much prefer a warm pleasurable sound, but when i see people say that they can't even hear a difference between ss amps and tube amps, it makes me worry.


----------



## Darien

btw im reading the description for the Tesla E88CC/6922 but it says that it is not syrupy and is more focused on detail :S 
  
 "Airy highs, smooth mids, and great detail... never syrupy."
  
 which tube should i get if i want to say F detail and just get the warmest most pleasureable and euphonic sound?


----------



## RickB

darien said:


> right on lol - so with tube amps will the difference be noticable? i know some people are anti-tube and want clear detailed sound but i really like the idea of tube amps and i much prefer a warm pleasurable sound, but when i see people say that they can't even hear a difference between ss amps and tube amps, it makes me worry.


 
  
 My Vali 2 is definitely less edgy than the Asgard 2. The Valhalla 2 is smoother still. The treble is more "rounded off" on tube or tube hybrid amps vs. solid state. Whether that is something you'll like you'll have to listen for yourself to determine.


----------



## Darien

rickb said:


> My Vali 2 is definitely less edgy than the Asgard 2. The Valhalla 2 is smoother still. The treble is more "rounded off" on tube or tube hybrid amps vs. solid state. Whether that is something you'll like you'll have to listen for yourself to determine.


 
 right on sounds good to me - i prefer a warmer/smoother more euphonic sound. so would this setup work?
  
 Odac connected to PC via usb, then 3.5mm out from odac to dual rca on vali 2 - then from vali 2 out to studio monitors connected with rca -> 1/4 trs cables?
  
 and then the vali 2 will make my studio monitors sound warm and nice and i can control volume with the vali 2 for the monitors, and when i want to listen to my k7xx, ill just plug it in the vali 2 and it will work for the headphones then?


----------



## RickB

darien said:


> right on sounds good to me - i prefer a warmer/smoother more euphonic sound. so would this setup work?
> 
> Odac connected to PC via usb, then 3.5mm out from odac to dual rca on vali 2 - then from vali 2 out to studio monitors connected with rca -> 1/4 trs cables?
> 
> and then the vali 2 will make my studio monitors sound warm and nice and i can control volume with the vali 2 for the monitors, and when i want to listen to my k7xx, ill just plug it in the vali 2 and it will work for the headphones then?


 

 Yes, that should work.


----------



## Darien

sorry if i am asking the same question over and over, but just wanted to know cus i plan to order the vali today - so does the vali 2 have a nice warm tube sound or is it pretty neutral? because i noticed that with tube amps that are designed to sound neutral, they are usually indistinguashable from your  typical o2 or magni 2 and you are basically paying for the aesthetic, so you guys do think the vali 2 has a nice warm tube sound?  cus i saw on the schiit site it said its the best tube amp out there for the price, but i dont want it to sound neutral or just slightly different from my o2....i want to know if it has that nice old school warm tube sound that my dad would like?


----------



## RickB

darien said:


> sorry if i am asking the same question over and over, but just wanted to know cus i plan to order the vali today - so does the vali 2 have a nice warm tube sound or is it pretty neutral? because i noticed that with tube amps that are designed to sound neutral, they are usually indistinguashable from your  typical o2 or magni 2 and you are basically paying for the aesthetic, so you guys do think the vali 2 has a nice warm tube sound?  cus i saw on the schiit site it said its the best tube amp out there for the price, but i dont want it to sound neutral or just slightly different from my o2....i want to know if it has that nice old school warm tube sound that my dad would like?


 
  
 The Vali 2 is smoother than a pure SS amp, but it doesn't have the warm, slow, gooey sound of old school tube amps, at least with the stock tube. You can get closer to that kind of sound with tube rolling, but Schiit's house sound does lean toward the slightly bright and more neutral.


----------



## west0ne

I don't claim to be an expert but to my ears with the stock tube it sounds fairly neutral, certainly not warm like I've heard from friends tube amps. I have another tube on order so I'll see how that affects sound but I think it's designed to be fairly neutral. I think the point of tube amps though is that you can switch out the tube to something more pleasing to your own taste.


----------



## Darien

west0ne said:


> I don't claim to be an expert but to my ears with the stock tube it sounds fairly neutral, certainly not warm like I've heard from friends tube amps. I have another tube on order so I'll see how that affects sound but I think it's designed to be fairly neutral. I think the point of tube amps though is that you can switch out the tube to something more pleasing to your own taste.




Ya that's what I'm worried bout  which tube did you order? Is there a tube that I can buy for the vali that is known to have that old school warm gooey tube sound?


----------



## HOWIE13

darien said:


> sorry if i am asking the same question over and over, but just wanted to know cus i plan to order the vali today - so does the vali 2 have a nice warm tube sound or is it pretty neutral? because i noticed that with tube amps that are designed to sound neutral, they are usually indistinguashable from your  typical o2 or magni 2 and you are basically paying for the aesthetic, so you guys do think the vali 2 has a nice warm tube sound?  cus i saw on the schiit site it said its the best tube amp out there for the price, but i dont want it to sound neutral or just slightly different from my o2....i want to know if it has that nice old school warm tube sound that my dad would like?


 
 I think you may struggle to find a tube for the Vali2 which makes your k7xx cans produce a 'nice old school warm tube sound'.


----------



## west0ne

darien said:


> Ya that's what I'm worried bout  which tube did you order? Is there a tube that I can buy for the vali that is known to have that old school warm gooey tube sound?




I've ordered an Electro Harmonix Gold, it was fairly cheap but I'd seen good reviews so thought I'd give it a go. I imagine it would be easy to spend a small fortune finding a tube that was 'your perfect'.


----------



## rgmffn

darien said:


> Ya that's what I'm worried bout
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 As HOWIE13 says. I don't think you'll find a tube that will make the Vali 2 sound like your dads (my dads anyway) old Sylvania console 78 rpm record player. It's just with my limited experience the Tesla E88CC is 'slightly' mellow sounding to me compared to my other tubes. There's no huge swing in sound. Did you play the video on that page. Kevin describes the sound there.  And, I got the Gold grade. I don't think you'll notice any difference in sound with the more expensive grade.


----------



## rgmffn

west0ne said:


> I've ordered an Electro Harmonix Gold, it was fairly cheap but I'd seen good reviews so thought I'd give it a go. I imagine it would be easy to spend a small fortune finding a tube that was 'your perfect'


 
 Good choice for the money. I think you'll like it.


----------



## Darien

howie13 said:


> I think you may struggle to find a tube for the Vali2 which makes your k7xx cans produce a 'nice old school warm tube sound'.




What headphones do you recommend instead? I have sennheiser HD 650 but it's uncomfortable for me cus the shape so I got the akg k7xx instead cus it's auto adjusting and memory foam and supposed to be warn sounding. 

God ******* damn it it's like no matter what I do things never work out for me maybe I'm just not meant to be an audiophile


----------



## HOWIE13

darien said:


> What headphones do you recommend instead? I have sennheiser HD 650 but it's uncomfortable for me cus the shape so I got the akg k7xx instead cus it's auto adjusting and memory foam and supposed to be warn sounding.
> 
> God ******* damn it it's like no matter what I do things never work out for me maybe I'm just not meant to be an audiophile


 
 All audiophiles agonise over their kit. Your taste in sound will most likely change over time anyway, and before too long you may want a cleaner, clearer sound. I'm old enough to remember and enjoyed the warm, lush sound you are seeking, but nowadays I prefer greater clarity.
 Thing is the Vali2 is a rhythmic, dynamic, articulate amplifier that has great clarity for its price range. It's not really a warm, cuddly sounding amp. 
 The tubes already mentioned are both excellent and can be sweet and  warm in the right system. Problem is it's not just the tube that decides the overall sound. In my experience the headphones are more important and in this respect the warmest I have used are the HD 598, X2, P5, NAD-HP50.
 The warmest, most honeyed tubes I have used in Vali2 are Octals, such as Sylvania 6SN7 'Bad Boy', K-R VT231,(both expensive) and the FrankenVali set-up with dual single triode 7193's or dual single triode 6L5G's. There's lots of info on these tubes on the Project Ember tube rolling thread and mention earlier in this thread too, I think. You need to buy adapters and a socket extender and some are prone to hum.
 The warmest, liquid gold type of 9pin Noval I've used is the big Russian 6N6P, but it's heater current is too high for Vali2.
 In this price range you would have to consider something like the slightly more expensive Project Starlight for that tube.


----------



## Designer79

darien said:


> sorry if i am asking the same question over and over, but just wanted to know cus i plan to order the vali today - so does the vali 2 have a nice warm tube sound or is it pretty neutral? because i noticed that with tube amps that are designed to sound neutral, they are usually indistinguashable from your  typical o2 or magni 2 and you are basically paying for the aesthetic, so you guys do think the vali 2 has a nice warm tube sound?  cus i saw on the schiit site it said its the best tube amp out there for the price, but i dont want it to sound neutral or just slightly different from my o2....i want to know if it has that nice old school warm tube sound that my dad would like?


 
  
 I was one of the first in this thread to praise the signature sound of the Tesla E88CC, and I still do ... I think the Tesla is rounding off sharp treble tremendously well. I am using the infamously trebelish Beyerdynamic T90's and still think they get tamed very very well with the Tesla in the Vali 2. Better than with any other of my tubes. Still, for syrupy sound you might check out Mullard's, I personally have not yet listened to them, but they are thought of to be very old school mellowy sounding.


----------



## h2rulz

darien said:


> What headphones do you recommend instead? I have sennheiser HD 650 but it's uncomfortable for me cus the shape so I got the akg k7xx instead cus it's auto adjusting and memory foam and supposed to be warn sounding.
> 
> God ******* damn it it's like no matter what I do things never work out for me maybe I'm just not meant to be an audiophile




I agree the k7xx is comfortable and produces a nice thump in the low end for open cans, but "warm" wasn't the word I'd use to describe its sound. 
The 650 definitely is the closest you're looking for in terms of sound. Or maybe perhaps the mids of the HE400s?

Btw, also try some mullards to mellow the sound.


----------



## Darien

h2rulz said:


> I agree the k7xx is comfortable and produces a nice thump in the low end for open cans, but "warm" wasn't the word I'd use to describe its sound.
> The 650 definitely is the closest you're looking for in terms of sound. Or maybe perhaps the mids of the HE400s?
> 
> Btw, also try some mallards to mellow the sound.


 
 thanks, i see that this is one of the most well reviewed mallard tube, would this fit the vali 2 ? the description uses words like 'creamy' and 'soft' which sounds right up my alley lol 
  
 http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/Mullard/Mullard-EL84


----------



## west0ne

darien said:


> thanks, i see that this is one of the most well reviewed mallard tube, would this fit the vali 2 ? the description uses words like 'creamy' and 'soft' which sounds right up my alley lol
> 
> http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/Mullard/Mullard-EL84


 
 I'm pretty sure that's not the right type of tube, you need the E88CC/ECC88/6922 tubes. I think the Mullard are 6DJ8


----------



## Darien

west0ne said:


> I'm pretty sure that's not the right type of tube, you need the E88CC/ECC88/6922 tubes.


 
 ahh i see, looks like the 6922 mallard tubes are 99$ each :O 
  
  
 think ill go for these
  
 http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6922-E88CC-Tube-Types/JJ-E88CC-6922-Gold
  
 they seem best reviewed for my price range and its described as warm and smooth


----------



## HOWIE13

Mullards in Vali2 are certainly warmer than most tubes, but they don't evoke the honeyed glow of a 1950's radio.


----------



## Darien

howie13 said:


> Mullards in Vali2 are certainly warmer than most tubes, but they don't evoke the honeyed glow of a 1950's radio.


 
 aw nuts 
  
 what about something like the littledot mk2? 
  
 also how come they had better sound quality in the 50s than we do now in 2016??? did all the good audio engineers die?


----------



## HOWIE13

darien said:


> aw nuts
> 
> what about something like the littledot mk2?
> 
> also how come they had better sound quality in the 50s than we do now in 2016??? did all the good audio engineers die?


 
 That's a good question!
 Nowadays it's all about clarity and hearing everything in the mix. In the days of good old analogue vinyl, the sound was warmer, yet the detail was retained. I don't know the details but a sound engineer friend explained to me that a needle in a groove gives more information than 16-bit. Someone else will need to elaborate further on this.
 LD2  is a great amp too. With a pair of Mullard CV 4010 or 4015's as drivers, and the stock 6N6P power tubes you will have a potentially warm, smooth, honey sound. Even so, I'm not sure your cans will bring out the best of the warmth.
 Can you audition before purchasing? I think Schiit allow you to do that. If so, you could trial the Vali2 with one or two of the tubes that have been mentioned as suitable and return the amp if it's not to your liking.


----------



## HOWIE13

darien said:


> ahh i see, looks like the 6922 mallard tubes are 99$ each :O
> 
> 
> think ill go for these
> ...


 
 I seem to be the bringer of bad news tonight-I don't want to be like that and we all hear stuff differently, of course, but personally speaking that tube is quite mediocre, to my ears anyway.


----------



## Darien

well how about a DarkVoice 336SE Headphone Tube Amplifier? i hear that is one of the most respected tube amps out there :S if that doesn't give me the warm honey sound i want - i quit. its even called DARK VOICE... i mean c'mon....


----------



## Mumbles06

Alright, first post to this thread in a while.  I'm re-rolling through my tubes now.  I had been listening to my 1971 Tesla E88CC Gold Pin, and enjoying it, and I decided to go back to the stock tube, a made in Canada badged 6B27.  The stock tube sounded very constrained and congested.  It just felt like it needed more elbow room, like my music was stuck in a bottle and couldn't breathe.  (I'm listening to PJ Harvey's Rid of Me on FLAC through my Gumby into my Vali 2, and then to my Grado RS1e's btw.)  Then I shifted again to my 1961 RCA 6BZ7.  For a 12 dollar tube, this thing packs a wallop.  It was just so night and day from stock when I plugged it back in.  The guitar strumming is much clearer, fuller, and detailed.  The overall sound is much much warmer than stock, and very thick and full.  I would say the Tesla was smoother with a similar sound stage, but not as warm.  I'm loving the way this RCA is treating distorted guitars, so warm and full.  I've got a vintage USA Philipps 6922 and a Genalex Gold Lion E88CC to re-roll through later, but for now I just can bring myself to pull the cheap little RCA.  For the price, this little tube ROCKS!


----------



## GravitySmacked

Currently using a Mullard E88CC - CV2492 - lovely tube, really warm with a solid low-end.


----------



## claud W

Any one here try a 6CG7 in your Vali 2? Mike Moffatt suggests that as a good tube. Its a bit large though.


----------



## RickB

claud w said:


> Any one here try a 6CG7 in your Vali 2? Mike Moffatt suggests that as a good tube. Its a bit large though.


 

 I have. It's my favorite tube on the Vali 2. Very mellow and sweet. (I should mention my version was the new production Electro-Harmonix).


----------



## rgmffn

rickb said:


> I have. It's my favorite tube on the Vali 2. Very mellow and sweet. (I should mention my version was the new production Electro-Harmonix).


 
 I have one. IIRC, in my rundown of my acquired tubes in an earlier post, I believe I felt it was pleasant sounding but nothing particularly special. I have worse sounding tubes. It doesn't get any airtime. As always, YMMV


----------



## volly

I'm able to get some 6cg7 down my part of the globe. How do these compare to 6dj8 series? Do these fit alright and how much power do they require?


----------



## claud W

Just ordered a RCA and a Sylvania 6CG7. They are almost as old as I am from the early 50s. To give you a hint of how tube crazy I am, I have not yet ordered my Vali 2


----------



## volly

claud w said:


> Just ordered a RCA and a Sylvania 6CG7. They are almost as old as I am from the early 50s. To give you a hint of how tube crazy I am, I have not yet ordered my Vali 2


 
 Let us know how you go with it when you get your Vali 2. 
  
 I might pick up a Haltron 6CG7 today, we'll see.
  
 I also have a Philips SQ E88CC coming in soon too.


----------



## claud W

volly said:


> Let us know how you go with it when you get your Vali 2.
> 
> I might pick up a Haltron 6CG7 today, we'll see.
> 
> I also have a Philips SQ E88CC coming in soon too.


 

 Ordered my Vali 2 today along with a Modi 2 Uber. I have lots of NOS 6dj8s, 6922s and 7308s to try. I was running a matched pair of Telfunken 6922 CCas in my Lyr before I replaced it .
 Any one here traded in their ALO Island for a little Schiit stack?


----------



## Adamsolympia

I've had my Vali 2 for a little over a week now, tis my first experience with tube amps / Tube Rolling. I had the EH 6922 at the ready when it arrived and definitely liked it better than the stock tube.  After reading this and other pertinent threads, I decided to go for an "end-game" tube, settling on the Pope PCC88 / 7DJ8  which was just delivered & installed today. The 6922 had really opened up after burning in, but the Pope certainly seems more pleasant to my ears even pre burn-in. (seems tighter, slightly more detailed) .. I picked up the platinum quality version from upscale for $75 .. 
  
  Anyway, I'd like to get a few more of the 7DJ8 as backups for when this one fails, and was wondering if anyone has experience with the Bel and/or Philips brand PCC88/7DJ8 vs the Holland Pope,  and if there's really any noticeable difference between the brands?   I've heard a lot of praise for both the Bel and Philips ,  and though I'm not sure about the price on the Bel, the Philips is substantially cheaper ($35 less than the Pope) ..
  
 Also, I understand I need to give this 100 hours of burn-in before I experience the final sound-signature;  so I'm wondering if simply leaving the amp  on all night will accomplish this; or should I leave it playing music all night?
  
 (p.s., My gear = HD 600, Modi 2 Uber and Vali 2 ,  with Flac CD and SACD rips through foobar wasapi event  as my main source w/ inexpensive USB + rca cables picked up from walmart)


----------



## claud W

Pope, Phillips and Amperex are all the same company. There are 6922s made in Holland and also the USA The older the better. Look for white labels. Do not be afraid to buy an Amperex or other name brand tube  that is labeled as another brand from a reputable tube seller like Brent Jesse or Tube World. Tube World has some used but still good tubes for decent affordable prices. I ordered two 6CG7s from Tube World and talked to Brendan last night. One of them crapped out when he went to test it again before shipping to me. He upgraded me to a better tube that was $10 more, but did not charge me extra. The best thing is that you only need one tube for Vali. Try to get 1 to 2% match between triode sections since its only a one tube amp..


----------



## Skarecrow77

adamsolympia said:


> Anyway, I'd like to get a few more of the 7DJ8 as backups for when this one fails, and was wondering if anyone has experience with the Bel and/or Philips brand PCC88/7DJ8 vs the Holland Pope,  and if there's really any noticeable difference between the brands?   I've heard a lot of praise for both the Bel and Philips ,  and though I'm not sure about the price on the Bel, the Philips is substantially cheaper ($35 less than the Pope) ..
> 
> Also, I understand I need to give this 100 hours of burn-in before I experience the final sound-signature;  so I'm wondering if simply leaving the amp  on all night will accomplish this; or should I leave it playing music all night?


 

 So far as I'm aware, being powered on is all a tube needs for burn-in. Music playing is for headphones (and the DAC? not sure).

 The Philips branded PCC88s on upscale audio were manufactured in Electronic Industry Niš (usually shortened to "EI") in the former Yugoslavia (currently, Serbia). I did some reading on them, and there was some sort of "Technology transfer" from Herleen to EI. Exactly what that entailed (hardware? parts? personnel? expertise?), I can't seem to find out. Regardless, it's a very nice tube. When mine dies, I hope I can still find it in stock to buy another.

 I've also got a Herleen PCC88 I picked up off of Ebay, a pinched waist "Miniwatt" (also really a Philips). The comparison between it and the EI tube is interesting. Right up front, I need to say that they're more similar than they are different, but if pressed for comparison: The EI tube has a more pronounced midrange and midbass, sometimes almost "oversaturated'. Herleen sound in comparison is sometimes best characterized as pretty and delicate. The Herleen tube handles complex passages better. The EI has a wider soundstage and more holographic imaging. The Herleen is more accurate, detailed, and precise.

 The Herleen tube is, all things considered, probably a "better" tube. But the EI is more fun. I know what it's giving me isn't, if I'm honest, 100% untampered with sound. it's distorting the sound... but in a way I find very aurally pleasing. It's just got an infectious toe-tapping "golly gee" quality to it. I go back and forth between my two Philips tubes, but spend significantly more time with the EI.


----------



## Adamsolympia

skarecrow77 said:


> So far as I'm aware, being powered on is all a tube needs for burn-in. Music playing is for headphones (and the DAC? not sure).
> 
> The Philips branded PCC88s on upscale audio were manufactured in Electronic Industry Niš (usually shortened to "EI") in the former Yugoslavia (currently, Serbia). I did some reading on them, and there was some sort of "Technology transfer" from Herleen to EI. Exactly what that entailed (hardware? parts? personnel? expertise?), I can't seem to find out. Regardless, it's a very nice tube. When mine dies, I hope I can still find it in stock to buy another.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  Thanks for the info! , Certainly sounds like you can't go wrong with the Philips. I'm currently doing a bit of research to find out whether it's worth going with the cryogenically treated option, but 
I've seen way too many mixed opinions on it, many seeming to think it's destructive to the audio signal. -- So I'll probably just end up going with the plain-jane Platinum grade and call it a day. 
  
   The Herleen sounds like an interesting option as well, which I may add to the collection for when I want to change up the sound some. Sounds like it might be better for classical music....   I think I found the one you're talking about on Ebay for $99 ... 
  
  So many great options to pick from, I'm starting to see how this hobby can be dangerous to my wallet  .  I almost regret not getting the Valhalla 2 instead of the Vali 2, which I'm starting to view as the "gateway drug" into tube amps.  On the other hand, I'd probably be better off to just stop browsing hi-fi gear catalogs and just enjoy what I've got ..


----------



## sheldaze

If there is any interest, I still have a packet of tubes for sale.


----------



## Adamsolympia

claud w said:


> Pope, Phillips and Amperex are all the same company. There are 6922s made in Holland and also the USA The older the better. Look for white labels. Do not be afraid to buy an Amperex or other name brand tube  that is labeled as another brand from a reputable tube seller like Brent Jesse or Tube World. Tube World has some used but still good tubes for decent affordable prices. I ordered two 6CG7s from Tube World and talked to Brendan last night. One of them crapped out when he went to test it again before shipping to me. He upgraded me to a better tube that was $10 more, but did not charge me extra. The best thing is that you only need one tube for Vali. Try to get 1 to 2% match between triode sections since its only a one tube amp..


 
  
   Thanks!  I'm learning quite a bit here --  I was a bit overwhelmed when I first started browsing online tube catalogs,  being that there's just so many to choose from, and it's hard to know where to start for a newbie  .. I appreciate you guys helping me narrow it down.


----------



## claud W

Getting excited. My Audioquest Carbon USB cable arrived yesterday and my 6CG7 tubes arrived today. Boy are those tall. Here's a pic of some of my tubes that I am going to roll along with one of my 6CG7s.


----------



## volly

claud w said:


> Getting excited. My Audioquest Carbon USB cable arrived yesterday and my 6CG7 tubes arrived today. Boy are those tall. Here's a pic of some of my tubes that I am going to roll along with one of my 6CG7s.



Can you let us know how you go comparing the rca 6cg7 tube with rest there. Definitely taller than the other tubes.


----------



## claud W

Audio quest Carbon cable did not work. Thankfully I had my good old Gold Belkin. Listening to stock tube through HD 25 Alu. and sounds quite good, but i need to switch to HD 600s later  and change tubes back and forth with the Sylvania 6CA7.


----------



## claud W

Original "made in Canada" tube is bassey and kind of a haze over the sound. Makes a nice initial impression. 
  
 Next up is an Amperex D getter 6922 and listening to Martina McBride , Caribou, Garth Emery and some Armin, its MUCH better. No haze, tighter, deeper bass. Clear vocals. This combo sounds like my just sold Lyr and Bifrost Uber. Damn good. This might be The Tube. Next up the RCA 6CG7.
  
 RCA 6CG7 does not have as much gain as the Amperex. When I increased volume it began to sing sweetly. Maybe not as deep bass as Amprex and not as dynamic, but nice tube in the Vali Next up is a Siemens 6922


----------



## volly

claud w said:


> Audio quest Carbon cable did not work. Thankfully I had my good old Gold Belkin. Listening to stock tube through HD 25 Alu. and sounds quite good, but i need to switch to HD 600s later  and change tubes back and forth with the Sylvania 6CA7.


 
 Lovely stack there, have fun!


----------



## claud W

The Siemens has confused me . It sounds real good like the Amperex so I will listen some more today. I am only going to test and report on normal obtainable tubes here. I see no reason to report on My telfunken and Siemens CCas as they cost much more per tube than this Schiit stack


----------



## listen4joy

any recommendation for proper tube for hd800?


----------



## sheldaze

listen4joy said:


> any recommendation for proper tube for hd800?


 
 Electro-Harmonix 6CG7 / 6FQ7 is not terribly expensive.
 Telefunken E88CC / 6922 is a little more upscale


----------



## claud W

I am and have been listening to my stack with HD 600s w/ Toxic Audio Silver Poison cable. Doing a refresher review just using two songs for each tube from iTunes on my Mac Mini recorded and stored in Apple Lossles format. Bob Moses, "Like it or not" and Martina McBride, "Wild Angels" 
 Surprise, The 6CG7has the most and deepest bass and is just as sweet and clear as the Amprex. The Simmens is a very close third having a touch less and not as articulate bass.


----------



## claud W

A bit of overkill for the Vali, but it sounds SOOOOOO great!!


----------



## rgmffn

claud w said:


> A bit of overkill for the Vali, but it sounds SOOOOOO great!!


 
 Overkill..!?  You're killing me!!


----------



## claud W

You have got to be Schiiting me!!!!!!!  So, I got a WyWires Red headphone cable for my AKG 702s and Alex tells me they need 100 hours of burn in. So I thought that I would find a nice cheap tube to do break in duty. I have a very old pair of Sovtek Russian 6922s. Just the thing!! Take out Tel CCa and insert Sovtek. WOW!! who would have thought!! This is a much more lively, dynamic tube. !! Got puter on Jango playing Trance, House and Dubstep.


----------



## rnros

claud w said:


> You have got to be Schiiting me!!!!!!!  So, I got a WyWires Red headphone cable for my AKG 702s and Alex tells me they need 100 hours of burn in. So I thought that I would find a nice cheap tube to do break in duty. I have a very old pair of Sovtek Russian 6922s. Just the thing!! Take out Tel CCa and insert Sovtek. WOW!! who would have thought!! This is a much more lively, dynamic tube. !! Got puter on Jango playing Trance, House and Dubstep.


 

 LOL Crazy it is, indeed. I refuse to believe that my 'inexpensive' Russian 6N23Ps (Reflectors) are better sounding than my ~$380 pairs of Telly E88CCs but... when I do listen to the Tellies I do miss the fuller, more articulate low end of the 6N23Ps, and they may even best the Tellies with slightly cleaner highs. Both are great tubes, but the low end of the Reflectors just brings it closer to reality for me, and yes, it does appear to be more dynamic. (The 6N23P was/is the Russian version of the 6DJ8/6922.)
 With the pairs I am comparing they are both dead quiet with 2% matched triodes and <5% matched tubes, so it's not a question of pair quality. The REFL 6N23Ps I have are from the '70s, but I think the later Sovteks come from the same Saratov Reflector factory.
 The Vali2 is a great little amp! I do listen to my other Schiit tube amps most of the time but the Vali2 is very good, especially when fed with Schiit Multibit. (It just doesn't have the full blown stage image that the others have.)


----------



## volly

I've rolled in a 6N1p - EV tube for the last few days now, was reluctant to take out the Philips SQ. 
  
 Boy...this tube does have some character to it! Dynamic and throws a nice big image, was good technicalities as well. 
  
 Amazing bang for buck!
  
 Looking for some 6N23p next I think!


----------



## rnros

volly said:


> I've rolled in a 6N1p - EV tube for the last few days now, was reluctant to take out the Philips SQ.
> 
> Boy...this tube does have some character to it! Dynamic and throws a nice big image, was good technicalities as well.
> 
> ...


 

 Agree on that tube. The 6N1P is a higher heater current than the 6N23P, ~600mA vs ~300mA. Nice that the Vali2 can also use that tube. My favorite so far for that tube is the 6N1P-EV from the Anode factory, sometimes spelled 'Anod.' Less frequently appears on eBay but it is available.
 Difference, by my ear and equipment, between the Anode 6N1P-EV and the Reflector 6N23P is that the 6N23P has slightly more energy in the lower mids and the 6N1P-EV slightly more energy in the upper mids, they are both clean and dynamic to my ear. The Valhalla can use that tube also.


----------



## volly

I tell you what, this tube gives the hd600 a kick in the dynamic section as well as the clarity. This is one of my cheapest and easiest to attain tube and I'm willing put it on par with my philips sq with gold pins. 

They aren't as holographic as the philips sq but I'll be damned...they still present music amazingly. I seriously wasn't done listening to the philips sq but it will have to wait out till I'm done with this russian nos. 

Runs fine in the vali 2,just a hint of noise floor on high gain but dead silent on low gain. Zero distortion or any irregular noises. A top quality tube really. Also she lights up more than most tubes.


----------



## Pineapple Wolf

Hey, my vali 2 just arrived today and I've been looking into tube rolling while waiting for it to arrive.
  
 Voshkod tubes have really caught my interest but I don't know if they're compatible or not, can you point me to some good tubes if they're not compatible. I have a budget of around £30 for 1 tube.


----------



## SleepingLesson

On a whim I bought this E88CC Tesla tube, should arrive this week. Assuming it's real, was this a decent purchase for use with my Vali 2?


----------



## claud W

volly said:


> I've rolled in a 6N1p - EV tube for the last few days now, was reluctant to take out the Philips SQ.
> 
> Boy...this tube does have some character to it! Dynamic and throws a nice big image, was good technicalities as well.
> 
> ...


 

 Ordered a 1975 Voshkod 6N23P off of Ebay this afternoon $48.00 shipped


----------



## volly

claud w said:


> Ordered a 1975 Voshkod 6N23P off of Ebay this afternoon $48.00 shipped



Oh nice...let us know how you go with that one.


----------



## Darien

hey u guys that have been trying the tesla e88cc, does it make the vali 2 sound nice and vintange and honey and smooth sounding? i been pretty disappointed with how my vali 2 pretty much sounds just like my o2... 
  
 also are the tesla tubes the same company that makes the tesla cars?


----------



## SleepingLesson

Haha no, Tesla Motors was founded in 2003.


----------



## zentg

lol xD


----------



## claud W

It came all the way from the Ukraine in 8 days. Shipped just regular post. I have put about 50 hours on it since Friday and it is very dynamic and quiet. I like it better than my Telfunken CCa. Good bass and treble and nicely balanced sound. This is my pick for the Vali 2. I just ordered another 75 Voskhod, but gray shield this time.


----------



## bigronnyc

I have a Modi 2 Uber and a Vali 2 stack, and I use Beyerdynamic DT 1770 Pros.  So far I have tried the stock tube that came with the Vali 2 (6BZ7/GBQ7A Canada), a Telefunken Black Diamond E88CC-TK, and a Genalex Gold Lion E88CC / 6922.
  
 The EASY winner so far in sound quality/cleanliness/stage width/clarity is the Gold Lion.  It sounds brilliant, plenty of warmth, separation, and it's very three dimensional.
  
 I found the others lacked the width, and were quite muddy with high volume compared to the Gold Lion.  Even at high volumes I hear no muddiness, like distortion or instruments blending in to each other, with the Gold Lion.
  
 Got it for around $45 on tubedepot.com.


----------



## Emries

New to tube rolling:
  
 If you had to pick one tube for the vali 2 with senn hd600, what would you choose?
 From what I've read, it seems Genalex Gold Lion E88CC / 6922, 6N1p - EV, and some 6N23Ps are the most recommended (though I have had a bit of a hard time to find some 6N23P Voskhod '75s). Thanks!
  
 Also,


volly said:


> I've rolled in a 6N1p - EV tube for the last few days now, was reluctant to take out the Philips SQ.
> 
> Boy...this tube does have some character to it! Dynamic and throws a nice big image, was good technicalities as well.
> 
> ...


 
 what's this Philips SQ you're using for the Vali 2 specifically? Was it this one? https://www.tubedepot.com/products/philips-miniwatt-sq-e88cc-6922-gold-pin-holland
 How did you like it compared to 6N23Ps?

 Do these look like legit Voskhod '75? They seem to be _a lot_ cheaper than the others I've looked at:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N23P-VOSKHOD-1975-YEAR-SAME-DATE-CODE-RARE-VINTAGE-NOS-TESTED-LOT-OF-1-NEW-TUBE-/121805488038?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368


----------



## Skarecrow77

emries said:


> New to tube rolling:
> 
> If you had to pick one tube for the vali 2 with senn hd600, what would you choose?


 
  
 Well, I've only got 3, but my pinched waist miniwatt PCC88 would be my choice of the 3 I have.
  
 I've heard very good things about the Bel E88CC/6922 as well.


----------



## HOWIE13

emries said:


> New to tube rolling:
> 
> If you had to pick one tube for the vali 2 with senn hd600, what would you choose?
> From what I've read, it seems Genalex Gold Lion E88CC / 6922, 6N1p - EV, and some 6N23Ps are the most recommended (though I have had a bit of a hard time to find some 6N23P Voskhod '75s). Thanks!
> ...


 
 The double wire version is regarded more favourably than the single wire one.
 I can't tell from the picture of that one on eBay which version it is but if it's single wired it seems expensive to me.


----------



## vinakro

I'm thinking of getting a Vali 2 to go with my Ether C, since I've heard good things about it. I've never used a tube amp before so I'm new to the tube rolling hobby.

Could anyone recommend me something that would go well with the Ether C? I'm looking for something with a bit of warmth that can really synergise with the Ether Cs strengths.


----------



## Beztis

vinakro said:


> I'm thinking of getting a Vali 2 to go with my Ether C, since I've heard good things about it. I've never used a tube amp before so I'm new to the tube rolling hobby.
> 
> Could anyone recommend me something that would go well with the Ether C? I'm looking for something with a bit of warmth that can really synergise with the Ether Cs strengths.


 
 Tbh I was pretty disappointed with the vali 2. It's a good amp as far as amps go, but it doesn't really have a tubey sound, and even though schiit brags about 60w plate voltage, that's nothing compared to how most OTL amps are pushing 550+ watts, so really the tubes aren't doing much but besides glowing :S I've tried a few mullard and electro harmonix tubes, but I honestly couldn't tell much difference, and you can't truly a/b different tubes because by the time you take one off and put the other one in and turn the amp back on, your brain has already forgotten the difference, and you just kinda assume it sounds different based on the general characteristics people say about the said tube - i notice lot of schiit products are "really good and worth buying" kinda like how christians say "prove god doesn't exist!" 
  
 I recently got a littldot mk3, and I actually like it quite a bit even with the stock tubes. It has a nice smooth sound with a bit of tubey echo, though I ordered some NOS m8100s because I want more warmth and hneyness. They should come next week and I'm hoping it will get me where I want to be.


----------



## Letmebefrank

beztis said:


> i notice lot of schiit products are "really good and worth buying" kinda like how christians say "prove god doesn't exist!"


 
  
 This statement... just wow.


----------



## Letmebefrank

vinakro said:


> I'm thinking of getting a Vali 2 to go with my Ether C, since I've heard good things about it. I've never used a tube amp before so I'm new to the tube rolling hobby.
> 
> Could anyone recommend me something that would go well with the Ether C? I'm looking for something with a bit of warmth that can really synergise with the Ether Cs strengths.


 
  
 Vali 2 doesn't have a super tubey sound. It definitely sounds warmer than my magni 2, especially with certain tubes, but its not going to sound like a true 100% tube amp.


----------



## vinakro

Thanks for the opinions guys. Yeah, I'm aware the Vali 2 doesn't have super tubey sound. But as Letmebefrank mentioned, it is warmer than a Magni. Ether is super detailed oriented and neutral, so I thought a little warmth would be a good combination, while remaining somewhat neutral. 

My other choice is a Little Dot I+, which I've read has a much better tube sound in comparison. Does anyone have direct comparisons? My options are a bit limited due to the Ether Cs low impedance of 23 Ohm.


----------



## HOWIE13

beztis said:


> Tbh I was pretty disappointed with the vali 2. It's a good amp as far as amps go, but it doesn't really have a tubey sound, and even though schiit brags about 60w plate voltage, that's nothing compared to how most OTL amps are pushing 550+ watts, so really the tubes aren't doing much but besides glowing :S I've tried a few mullard and electro harmonix tubes, but I honestly couldn't tell much difference, and you can't truly a/b different tubes because by the time you take one off and put the other one in and turn the amp back on, your brain has already forgotten the difference, and you just kinda assume it sounds different based on the general characteristics people say about the said tube - i notice lot of schiit products are "really good and worth buying" kinda like how christians say "prove god doesn't exist!"
> 
> I recently got a littldot mk3, and I actually like it quite a bit even with the stock tubes. It has a nice smooth sound with a bit of tubey echo, though I ordered some NOS m8100s because I want more warmth and hneyness. They should come next week and I'm hoping it will get me where I want to be.


 
 It's both tube and headphone dependent.
  
 Some headphones would require a very warm set-up to give you the typical tube sound, others don't.
  
 Most 9 pin Noval tubes like the 6DJ8/ECC88 tubes, are not, to my ears, typically 'tubey' in sound. One exception is the Russian 6N6P. It may be no co-incidence that the LD3 uses this tube as its power tube and you find the LD3 closer to the tube sound you are seeking.
  
 I find Octal tubes can be much warmer/euphonic and for me can provide that lush warmth that I associate with a typical tube sound.
  
 My Vali2 can handle 0.6A current draw and so can use octal 6SN7 type tubes. These will probably be better for you. You would require a 6SN7 to ECC88 adapter and an ECC88 socket saver though.


----------



## HOWIE13

CANCELLED-DOUBLE POST


----------



## Emries

Got my Genalex Gold Lion E88CC / 6922 tube today. Tried it out and there wasn't *that* much a difference in comparison to the stock 6BZ7 6BQ7A Canada tube I got with the Vali 2. Or maybe it just took so long to change the tubes that I couldn't do a decent comparison XD


----------



## Emries

Got my Voskhod '75 and compared it to the Genalex Gold Lion E88CC / 6922 (which I don't think sounds similar to the stock Canadian tube that I got anymore). The latter sounds more precise and the former had a "better" bass? something like that.


----------



## claud W

emries said:


> Got my Voskhod '75 and compared it to the Genalex Gold Lion E88CC / 6922 (which I don't think sounds similar to the stock Canadian tube that I got anymore). The latter sounds more precise and the former had a "better" bass? something like that.




I ran my 75 for 100 hours straight using Jango internet radio because I was breaking in a new headphone cable. It sounded much better after 100 hours. I have a recabled Massdrop Fostex coming that I am going to break in the same way also using my other 75 Voskhod.


----------



## koven

ive been using EH 6922 w/ my vali2, pretty happy with it


----------



## Niggi183

Anyone has any tube recommendations for the dt-990 250ohm?
 Using stock right now. Also how much of a difference can I expect?


----------



## AviP

I would love to know what a "tube sound" is like.
 I have a Vali 2 and I would like to know what tube you'd recommend o get a "tubey" sound.
 Not too expensive please, I just want to get an idea of what it's all about.
 Thanks!


----------



## Tuneslover

avip said:


> I would love to know what a "tube sound" is like.
> I have a Vali 2 and I would like to know what tube you'd recommend o get a "tubey" sound.
> Not too expensive please, I just want to get an idea of what it's all about.
> 
> Thanks!




Terrific Post! I want to know that as well.


----------



## Tuneslover

By the way folks, don't bother contacting Schiit about tube compatibility with the Vali2. Shortly after I bought my V2 I asked about a certain tube and Nick told me to research tubes in places like Head-Fi.org. Last week I asked about a couple of other tubes and haven't heard back from them. I re-sent the email earlier this week...notta, nothing. Nice, eh? Not a great way to treat a good customer (Magni, Modi, Magni 2U, SYS, Bifrost Uber, 4490 card and Bifrost MB).

 Conversely Jeremy from Garage 1217 promptly answered all, of my tube questions and I haven't bought a thing from him...YET.


----------



## Tuneslover

So, I defer to my fellow Head-fi'ers...is the Reflector 6H23p-EB 6922 tube compatible with the Vali 2?  If so and if there is someone who has it, how does it sound?  It's kind of pricey but I'm ready to splurge on a good tube that will blow my socks off.  I have the JJ E88CC gold pin and the Electro Harmonix 6922 (non gold pin) and they sound pretty darn good.  But then the stock Sylvania tube, to my ears, sounds pretty decent too.  I have to say that the Vali 2 is one terrific amp, I love it!


----------



## Skarecrow77

tuneslover said:


> So, I defer to my fellow Head-fi'ers...is the Reflector 6H23p-EB 6922 tube compatible with the Vali 2?  If so and if there is someone who has it, how does it sound?  It's kind of pricey but I'm ready to splurge on a good tube that will blow my socks off.  I have the JJ E88CC gold pin and the Electro Harmonix 6922 (non gold pin) and they sound pretty darn good.  But then the stock Sylvania tube, to my ears, sounds pretty decent too.  I have to say that the Vali 2 is one terrific amp, I love it!


 
  
 From my research, so far as i'm aware everything in the 6DJ8 family works with the Vali 2, which includes the 6DJ8 itself (aka ECC88 and 6H23), the 6922 (aka E88CC), the 7308 (aka E188CC), the 8223 (aka E288CC), and the CCa. 
  
 The 7v version of the 6D78, the 7DJ8 (aka PCC88), also works just fine with the Vali 2. My two most used tubes are both PCC88 tubes.

 There are few other tube families that work with the Vali 2, but the 6DJ8 family seems to be the most used one here.


----------



## HOWIE13

tuneslover said:


> Terrific Post! I want to know that as well.


 
  
 Well you can Google 'Tube Sound' for some technical stuff but here's a link that is understandable;
  
 http://kenrockwell.com/audio/why-tubes-sound-better.htm
  
  
 I think of tube sound as warmer, more pleasing and less fatiguing on the ear than solid state - more 'vinyl like' in quality-but without any loss of detail and without the pops and clicks, of course.
 Some hear better bass control/detail with solid state, but in my experience that's not necessarily true provided you chose your tubes carefully to match the rest of your system.
 That means in most cases trying different tubes to suit your own ears, which is fun and can become a hobby in itself.


----------



## AviP

howie13 said:


> Well you can Google 'Tube Sound' for some technical stuff but here's a link that is understandable;
> 
> http://kenrockwell.com/audio/why-tubes-sound-better.htm
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the info!
 So what tube would give me that in the Vali 2?


----------



## HOWIE13

avip said:


> Thanks for the info!
> So what tube would give me that in the Vali 2?


 
 Most tubes will give you a 'tube sound' in a well designed tube headphone amp but I can't be more specific than that for you personally as it depends on your set-up, especially your headphones, and also your own preferences for sound, not to mention your own ears.
  
 You need to try for yourself and start with the stock tube and then read the various threads to see how your perception of sound compares with that of others. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 .


----------



## AviP

howie13 said:


> Most tubes will give you a 'tube sound' in a well designed tube headphone amp but I can't be more specific than that for you personally as it depends on your set-up, especially your headphones, and also your own preferences for sound, not to mention your own ears.
> 
> You need to try for yourself and start with the stock tube and then read the various threads to see how your perception of sound compares with that of others.
> 
> ...


 
 Everyone seems to say that the stock tube in the Vali 2 doesn't really have a tube sound and even with an A-B switch I can't really tell the difference between it and a SS amp.
 So I'm just looking for that tube sound.
 The headphones I use are TH-X00 and DT770 250 Ohm. I also have the T40RP MK3 and the DT770 80 Ohm, but they're not in use with the Vali 2 (Although I could switch things around...)


----------



## HOWIE13

avip said:


> Everyone seems to say that the stock tube in the Vali 2 doesn't really have a tube sound and even with an A-B switch I can't really tell the difference between it and a SS amp.
> So I'm just looking for that tube sound.
> The headphones I use are TH-X00 and DT770 250 Ohm. I also have the T40RP MK3 and the DT770 80 Ohm, but they're not in use with the Vali 2 (Although I could switch things around...)


 
 Some SS amps have tube-like qualities. Maybe you are comparing with one of those.
 I don't know those headphones, unfortunately.
 Have you tried Octals? You would need a 6SN7 to ECC88 adapter and an ECC88 socket saver but they have, in general, a warmer sound than many ECC88 tubes.


----------



## RickB

avip said:


> Thanks for the info!
> So what tube would give me that in the Vali 2?


 
 I like the EH 6CG7 with the Vali 2. Very warm, smooth sound. But fair warning: some people consider this tube too soft sounding (but not me).


----------



## HOWIE13

rickb said:


> I like the EH 6CG7 with the Vali 2. Very warm, smooth sound. But fair warning: some people consider this tube too soft sounding (but not me).


 
 I forgot about that one. I haven't used it (GE version) in Vali2 and yes it's warm, but I like it a lot too.


----------



## Tuneslover

skarecrow77 said:


> From my research, so far as i'm aware everything in the 6DJ8 family works with the Vali 2, which includes the 6DJ8 itself (aka ECC88 and 6H23), the 6922 (aka E88CC), the 7308 (aka E188CC), the 8223 (aka E288CC), and the CCa.
> 
> The 7v version of the 6D78, the 7DJ8 (aka PCC88), also works just fine with the Vali 2. My two most used tubes are both PCC88 tubes.
> 
> ...




With help from Jon at The TubeStore.com he suggested the Tesla E88CC Gold Pin as a "tubey" sounding tube. So yesterday I drove to Hamilton and purchased one. My current setup configuration is: X5ii (coaxial out) > Bifrost MB > Vali 2 > HD650. Straight out of the box it sounded very pleasing, ever so small roll off in the high frequencies, excellent clarity in the mids and very very good bass extension.

I left the system running for about 7 hours straight. Listening once again this morning and the sound seems nicely settled in. The high frequencies sound a bit more prevalent and clear now but easy on my ears (smooth luciousness) which is probably the biggest difference (improvement) over the JJE88CC gold and EH6922. I suspect that more hours are needed until it this tube hits its stride but I'm very happy with it. I was afraid that I might find a tubey tube sound to be a bit too syrupy sounding but it's a slightly warmer and less fatiguing version of the tubes that I already own.


----------



## RickB

darien said:


> right on lol - so with tube amps will the difference be noticable? i know some people are anti-tube and want clear detailed sound but i really like the idea of tube amps and i much prefer a warm pleasurable sound, but when i see people say that they can't even hear a difference between ss amps and tube amps, it makes me worry.


 
 The difference with the Vali 2 (compared with pure solid state) was noticeable to me. I don't find it very warm or lush-- there's just some smoothness to it that is very pleasant. 
  
 Edit: this is with the stock tube.


----------



## koven

i used eh 6922 gold pin w/ my vali 2, it was a nice upgrade from stock and also very affordable


----------



## joeq70

tuneslover said:


> By the way folks, don't bother contacting Schiit about tube compatibility with the Vali2. Shortly after I bought my V2 I asked about a certain tube and Nick told me to research tubes in places like Head-Fi.org. Last week I asked about a couple of other tubes and haven't heard back from them. I re-sent the email earlier this week...notta, nothing. Nice, eh? Not a great way to treat a good customer (Magni, Modi, Magni 2U, SYS, Bifrost Uber, 4490 card and Bifrost MB).
> 
> 
> Conversely Jeremy from Garage 1217 promptly answered all, of my tube questions and I haven't bought a thing from him...YET.




I can understand the frustration here, but consider this: It would be a mistake for Schiit to come out an say this or that tube is good, better, best, etc. Tubes are very subjective and whether they sound good or not depends on many things such as what headphones you are using, what the tube specs measure as, and each person's individual preferences. Hell, the same tube design sounds different depending on the year it was made sometimes. There is really nothing Schiit could say to add to what has been written about tubes already. All it would do is create hype for whatever they recommend and end up inflating prices and disappointing people looking for something different. I think I'd rather they spend time focusing on their designs instead of answering the inevitable 1000s of questions about rolling tubes.


----------



## Tuneslover

joeq70 said:


> I can understand the frustration here, but consider this: It would be a mistake for Schiit to come out an say this or that tube is good, better, best, etc. Tubes are very subjective and whether they sound good or not depends on many things such as what headphones you are using, what the tube specs measure as, and each person's individual preferences. Hell, the same tube design sounds different depending on the year it was made sometimes. There is really nothing Schiit could say to add to what has been written about tubes already. All it would do is create hype for whatever they recommend and end up inflating prices and disappointing people looking for something different. I think I'd rather they spend time focusing on their designs instead of answering the inevitable 1000s of questions about rolling tubes.


 
 I was simply asking whether a certain tube is COMPATIBLE with the V2, not how it sounds.


----------



## joeq70

tuneslover said:


> I was simply asking whether a certain tube is COMPATIBLE with the V2, not how it sounds.


 
 Ahh fair enough! My bad!


----------



## AviP

I'm looking into getting a new tube with an emphasis on clarity. I've pretty much settled on the Genalex Gold Lion, but before I put the order through I've started wondering, I love the sound from my Vali 2 but am I now essentially trying to make my Vali 2 sound like it's SS? Am I barking up the wrong tree?


----------



## HOWIE13

avip said:


> I'm looking into getting a new tube with an emphasis on clarity. I've pretty much settled on the Genalex Gold Lion, but before I put the order through I've started wondering, I love the sound from my Vali 2 but am I now essentially trying to make my Vali 2 sound like it's SS? Am I barking up the wrong tree?


 
 ECC88/E88CC/6DJ8 Tesla, Tungsram and Amperex 'Bugle Boy' will give you, amongst others, plenty sweet clarity.


----------



## AviP

howie13 said:


> ECC88/E88CC/6DJ8 Tesla, Tungsram and Amperex 'Bugle Boy' will give you, amongst others, plenty sweet clarity.



The bugle boy is more than I want to spend, but the Tesla and Tungsram are priced within my budget, with the Tesla being cheaper (and therefore preferred, assuming everything else is equal).
How do those tubes (Tesla and Tungsram) compare to each other and how do they compare to the gold lion?
Thanks!


----------



## HOWIE13

avip said:


> The bugle boy is more than I want to spend, but the Tesla and Tungsram are priced within my budget, with the Tesla being cheaper (and therefore preferred, assuming everything else is equal).
> How do those tubes (Tesla and Tungsram) compare to each other and how do they compare to the gold lion?
> Thanks!


 
 Don't know the Gold Lion but the Tesla and Tungsram are very similar to my ears. I could be happy with either.


----------



## claud W

Russian 6H23Ps are very nice in the Vali too. Go to Ebay and look for 1975 Reflector or Voskhod. I have bought them from guys in the Ukraine and Bulgaria so far.  We are talking about $40 to 60 for singles or pair.


----------



## Designer79

tuneslover said:


> With help from Jon at The TubeStore.com he suggested the Tesla E88CC Gold Pin as a "tubey" sounding tube. So yesterday I drove to Hamilton and purchased one. My current setup configuration is: X5ii (coaxial out) > Bifrost MB > Vali 2 > HD650. Straight out of the box it sounded very pleasing, ever so small roll off in the high frequencies, excellent clarity in the mids and very very good bass extension.
> 
> I left the system running for about 7 hours straight. Listening once again this morning and the sound seems nicely settled in. The high frequencies sound a bit more prevalent and clear now but easy on my ears (smooth luciousness) which is probably the biggest difference (improvement) over the JJE88CC gold and EH6922. I suspect that more hours are needed until it this tube hits its stride but I'm very happy with it. I was afraid that I might find a tubey tube sound to be a bit too syrupy sounding but it's a slightly warmer and less fatiguing version of the tubes that I already own.


 

 Exactly my impressions with the Tesla E88CC gold pin as well. Perfect description! The small roll off in the higher frequencies is very welcome pairing the Beyerdynamic T90.


----------



## matthewpartrick

Hey Kids--Modi Multibit inbound should arrive on Monday, so will post my thoughts forthwith.  Also ordered the Vali 2 along with, and have a few tube rolling questions.  The webSchiit says the tube has to be a matched double triode for that amp.  I'm intimately familiar with tube rolling from my Vinnie Rossi LIO as well as my little Marshall guitar amp but I have to admit I've never owned anything with a single matched triode.  Do I have to shake a gourd or dribble snake oil on it?
  
 What tubes are ya'll using?  The website says:

 "Vali 2 is supplied with a single NOS 6BZ7 tube, which can be swapped for the same tubes we use in Lyr 2 and Mjolnir 2—feel free to use virtually any ECC88, 6922, 6DJ8, 2492, etc."
  
 Do 12AX7 tubes fall into this category?  I have a few of these lying around from my Marshall preamp section.
  
 Thx in advance!


----------



## HOWIE13

matthewpartrick said:


> Hey Kids--Modi Multibit inbound should arrive on Monday, so will post my thoughts forthwith.  Also ordered the Vali 2 along with, and have a few tube rolling questions.  The webSchiit says the tube has to be a matched double triode for that amp.  I'm intimately familiar with tube rolling from my Vinnie Rossi LIO as well as my little Marshall guitar amp but I have to admit I've never owned anything with a single matched triode.  Do I have to shake a gourd or dribble snake oil on it?
> 
> What tubes are ya'll using?  The website says:
> 
> ...


 
  
 You can't use 12V tubes in Vali2, unfortunately.
  
 With a suitable adapter and extender you can use 6SN7 Octals. Max heater current is 600mA for Vali2.


----------



## vcmusik

I use a Philips Ei PCC88 with my Schiit Stack (Modi 2 Uber). I think I'll eventually try a Genalex Gold Lion E88CC/6922 to see if it's an improvement.


----------



## Skarecrow77

7volt tubes from the 6DJ8 family (usually desinated "PCC88" or "7DJ8") work very well in the vali 2 as well.
  
 You can often find PCC88s at around half the price that a ECC88 from the same factory/year would cost.


----------



## matthewpartrick

vcmusik said:


> I use a Philips Ei PCC88 with my Schiit Stack (Modi 2 Uber). I think I'll eventually try a Genalex Gold Lion E88CC/6922 to see if it's an improvement.


 
 Nice!  I have a Gold Lion on order and it probably will show up the same day as the other stuff.


----------



## KoshNaranek

matthewpartrick said:


> Nice!  I have a Gold Lion on order and it probably will show up the same day as the other stuff.




I have found the Toshiba 7DJ8 from The Tube Store to be a seriously underappreciated tube. Almost as good as the Phillips Harleen. A little more mellow.


----------



## HOWIE13

koshnaranek said:


> I have found the Toshiba 7DJ8 from The Tube Store to be a seriously underappreciated tube. Almost as good as the Phillips Harleen. A little more mellow.


 
  
 I've heard good things about Japanese tubes from friends as well.
  
 Apparently some Japanese tube manufacturers bought up Mullard's equipment.
  
 Glad you like it.


----------



## thekorsen

Anyone know a good tube/ghetto tube rig for under $25 that'll pair nicely with the HD800s? From past posts it seems like the RCA 6CG7, EH 6CG7 or a Matsu****a 6AQ8 would fit the bill, but I'm curious if a better option is still out there. Ideally, something that'll lower highs/sibilance and raise bass.


----------



## r2muchstuff

thekorsen said:


> Anyone know a good tube/ghetto tube rig for under $25 that'll pair nicely with the HD800s? From past posts it seems like the RCA 6CG7, EH 6CG7 or a Matsu****a 6AQ8 would fit the bill, but I'm curious if a better option is still out there. Ideally, something that'll lower highs/sibilance and raise bass.


 
 6SN7GTB with socket saver and tube adapter = FrankinTube Vali 2.  I think this may be the sound sig you are after.  Works well with my T90.
  
 6SN7GTB tubes are a value but you need the saver and adapter, a one time expense.  
  
 YMMV, IMHO and all,
  
 r2


----------



## HOWIE13

thekorsen said:


> Anyone know a good tube/ghetto tube rig for under $25 that'll pair nicely with the HD800s? From past posts it seems like the RCA 6CG7, EH 6CG7 or a Matsu****a 6AQ8 would fit the bill, but I'm curious if a better option is still out there. Ideally, something that'll lower highs/sibilance and raise bass.


 
  
 I would endorse r2muchstuff's suggestions and you may also pick up a Tung-Sol 'Mouse Ears' for the sort of price you had in mind viz:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NOS-Testing-TUNG-SOL-6SN7GT-Mouse-Ear-D-Getter-VACUUM-TUBE-TV-7-Test-6-1668-/152216545734?hash=item2370d029c6:g:IVkAAOSwdzVXvO9G
  
 There are other possibilities for the type of sound you seek but you would likely pay more.


----------



## thekorsen

howie13 said:


> I would endorse r2muchstuff's suggestions and you may also pick up a Tung-Sol 'Mouse Ears' for the sort of price you had in mind viz:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NOS-Testing-TUNG-SOL-6SN7GT-Mouse-Ear-D-Getter-VACUUM-TUBE-TV-7-Test-6-1668-/152216545734?hash=item2370d029c6:g:IVkAAOSwdzVXvO9G
> 
> There are other possibilities for the type of sound you seek but you would likely pay more.


 
 Aw man, didn't see that soon enough and someone else snagged it. Everything else seems like its below %80 for the same price at the moment, but I'll keep an eye out for a deal on one of those.
  
 Also, what kind of adapter would I need for this kind of tube?


----------



## HOWIE13

thekorsen said:


> Aw man, didn't see that soon enough and someone else snagged it. Everything else seems like its below %80 for the same price at the moment, but I'll keep an eye out for a deal on one of those.
> 
> Also, what kind of adapter would I need for this kind of tube?


 
  
 You need a 6DJ8 socket saver and a 6SN7 to 6DJ8 adapter:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-6SN7-TO-ECC88-6DJ8-6N11-6922-6N6P-tube-adapter-for-you-amp-/201079159018?hash=item2ed14078ea:g:3~sAAOSw9mFWLioO


----------



## thekorsen

howie13 said:


> You need a 6DJ8 socket saver and a 6SN7 to 6DJ8 adapter:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-6SN7-TO-ECC88-6DJ8-6N11-6922-6N6P-tube-adapter-for-you-amp-/201079159018?hash=item2ed14078ea:g:3~sAAOSw9mFWLioO


 
 Awesome, thanks! Although, now I'd be at the point where I'd be spending $45 on the tube and its adapter... So if another tube that doesn't require an adapter with a similar sound below that price point exists it would also be a considerable option for me. But from what reviews I've found of the Tung-Sol 'Mouse Ears', it really does seem to be what I'm looking for.


----------



## KoshNaranek

thekorsen said:


> Awesome, thanks! Although, now I'd be at the point where I'd be spending $45 on the tube and its adapter... So if another tube that doesn't require an adapter with a similar sound below that price point exists it would also be a considerable option for me. But from what reviews I've found of the Tung-Sol 'Mouse Ears', it really does seem to be what I'm looking for.




The Toshiba 7dj8 I mentioned earlier is $20


----------



## sheldaze

thekorsen said:


> Anyone know a good tube/ghetto tube rig for under $25 that'll pair nicely with the HD800s? From past posts it seems like the RCA 6CG7, EH 6CG7 or a Matsu****a 6AQ8 would fit the bill, but I'm curious if a better option is still out there. Ideally, something that'll lower highs/sibilance and raise bass.


 
 I still have EH 6CG7 and EH 6922 for sale.


----------



## HOWIE13

thekorsen said:


> Awesome, thanks! Although, now I'd be at the point where I'd be spending $45 on the tube and its adapter... So if another tube that doesn't require an adapter with a similar sound below that price point exists it would also be a considerable option for me. But from what reviews I've found of the Tung-Sol 'Mouse Ears', it really does seem to be what I'm looking for.


 
 I understand the cost issue, though once you have the adapter and socket saver you are then 'future proof' for rolling further Octals in the due course of time.


----------



## dbaker1981

Just ordered me a 6922 EH. My tube rolling journey has begun.


----------



## bgaugs

Could someone with extensive tube rolling on this amp tell me how valid the claims are that this amp doesn't really exhibit much different 'tube sound' than say a magni 2? Is it the stock tubes that cause people to say this? Were you able to find a large difference between this with a good tube and an ss amp? Deciding between this amp and a Little Dot I+ for my K7xx


----------



## mdr944

LD III is a tube amp as the I and II are hybrids.


----------



## rnros

bgaugs said:


> Could someone with extensive tube rolling on this amp tell me how valid the claims are that this amp doesn't really exhibit much different 'tube sound' than say a magni 2? Is it the stock tubes that cause people to say this? Were you able to find a large difference between this with a good tube and an ss amp? Deciding between this amp and a Little Dot I+ for my K7xx


 

 Yes, the Vali 2 does respond very well to tube rolling. It's a great little hybrid tube amp to get you started with tubes. And, yes, I have put a very large number of tubes and tube types through this amp.
  
 Only requires one double triode tube, so each triode drives one channel. (Great way to hear each triode individually for a particular tube if you're interested in that.) Therefore any tube you use should be reasonably well matched triode to triode. That would typically mean within 10%, some dealers will label that as a 'platinum grade' tube.
  
 So, yes, impressive little amp with great sensitivity to tube rolling. Can handle the 300mA heaters of the 6DJ8/E88CC group and the 600mA heaters of the 6N1P group. Lots of tube choices! Often I will use the Vali 2 as the first sound test when new tubes come in. And often with the K7XX, which is fine with this amp. Of course, the Lyr2, Valhalla2, and MJ2 will throw a larger soundstage/aural image, not surprisingly, but for quality tube sound at this power level and price point, I was impressed.
  
 This topic is also currently under discussion in the "Official Schiit Vali 2 Thread." Might prove helpful:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/790828/official-schiit-vali-2-thread/1515#post_12862472


----------



## bgaugs

I'm aware, that's why I asked about 


mdr944 said:


> LD III is a tube amp as the I and II are hybrids.


 
 I'm aware, that's why why I'm comparing it to the Vali 2


----------



## bgaugs

rnros said:


> Yes, the Vali 2 does respond very well to tube rolling. It's a great little hybrid tube amp to get you started with tubes. And, yes, I have put a very large number of tubes and tube types through this amp.
> 
> Only requires one double triode tube, so each triode drives one channel. (Great way to hear each triode individually for a particular tube if you're interested in that.) Therefore any tube you use should be reasonably well matched triode to triode. That would typically mean within 10%, some dealers will label that as a 'platinum grade' tube.
> 
> ...


 
 What do you mean when you say 'fine'? Would there be a better amp with this kind of sound under $200? thanks for all your info and help!


----------



## rnros

bgaugs said:


> What do you mean when you say 'fine'? Would there be a better amp with this kind of sound under $200? thanks for all your info and help!


 

 That assessment was offered in reference to the pairing of the K7XX with the Vali2.


----------



## bgaugs

rnros said:


> That assessment was offered in reference to the pairing of the K7XX with the Vali2.


 
 Yea, what I'm asking is is there a better amp for this headphone that's better than "fine" under $200


----------



## rnros

bgaugs said:


> Yea, what I'm asking is is there a better amp for this headphone that's better than "fine" under $200


 
 Can't answer that since I haven't explored much in that price range.
  
 I can say this: based on how the K7XX performs with the Vali2 relative to how it performs with the up-line Schiit tube amps, I am not disappointed. I find no fault with the combination.
  
 It is possible that someone may feel or 'hear' differently, and that may or may not be subjective. At some point, you just have to start accumulating your own experience with equipment and sound performance. What you hear (perceive) will always reflect your own ears/experience/equipment.
  
 So I offer you this perspective, ultimately YMMV, the Vali2 is impressive for it's price and power level. It does nothing 'wrong' and a lot of things 'right.' It does not embarrass itself next to the up-line Schiit amps, quite the opposite. I'm glad I purchased one, and I do have all the other Schiit tube amps, including both versions of the Lyr. It offers a consistent and subtle responsiveness to tube selection, thereby allowing not only a variable and enjoyable sound performance, but also a convenient and reliable tool for actual tube assessment activities. Notwithstanding the fact that tubes, to a degree, do perform differently in different amps. Not only will you have the opportunity to grow and learn via tube rolling, but you will have an amp that is suitable for headphone exploration when that time comes.
  
 Now, that's a lot of Schiit for $169!


----------



## bgaugs

rnros said:


> Can't answer that since I haven't explored much in that price range.
> 
> I can say this: based on how the K7XX performs with the Vali2 relative to how it performs with the up-line Schiit tube amps, I am not disappointed. I find no fault with the combination.
> 
> ...


 
 I would agree! thanks for your help!


----------



## dbaker1981

Recieved my 6922 EH today and threw it into the Vali. Amazing sound. Tamed my HD700's to make them almost perfect.


----------



## bharris

I also really enjoyed that combo. I think that may still be my favorite tube with the Vali, overall, but  it really transformed the HD700 for me, in particular. Ugh... I think I might need to buy them again...


----------



## HOWIE13

bgaugs said:


> Yea, what I'm asking is is there a better amp for this headphone that's better than "fine" under $200


 
 You could check out G1217 Starlight. Not saying necessarily better for you, but just another possibility in your price range.
  
 Here's a link to a useful comparison:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/791955/schiit-vali-2-vs-garage-1217-starlight-comparative-review


----------



## volly

Holy Moly, Ok....I've just gone the 6sn7 route!
  
 I see what the other members are talking about!
  
 Using a Russian 6sn7 plus all the adapters and socket savers you need with this conversion, only just warmed up but I'm very impressed!
  
 Might report back in a few weeks about this tube type.


----------



## vcmusik

volly said:


> Holy Moly, Ok....I've just gone the 6sn7 route!
> 
> I see what the other members are talking about!
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, please do! I'd be interested in your findings. I recently got a Gold Lion, but I'm curious if these larger tubes sound better.


----------



## Tuneslover

volly said:


> Holy Moly, Ok....I've just gone the 6sn7 route!
> 
> I see what the other members are talking about!
> 
> ...


----------



## r2muchstuff

Me too,
  


 I really like this setup with bright headphones like the Beyerdynamic T90.  However, the most exciting synergy is with Sennheiser Amperior, go figure 
  
 r2


----------



## volly

r2muchstuff said:


> Me too,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I got the momentum's and chuck them on for some fun, syrupy goodness!
  
 Ok, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say....Save your money for this 6sn7 setup guys/gals, this is serious schiit!
  
 It could be 'new toy' syndrome but my ears are in heaven, I have a small collection of tubes but damn....I think I'm done!
  
 Clarity is stellar!
  
 Amazing holographic sound stage!
  
 I feel more drawn in to the music, it is utter deliciousness!
  
 I gotta stop gushing and do some real listen but boy....I'm impressed!


----------



## dbaker1981

volly said:


> I got the momentum's and chuck them on for some fun, syrupy goodness!
> 
> Ok, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say....Save your money for this 6sn7 setup guys/gals, this is serious schiit!
> 
> ...




What adapter would I get for this? Still new to the whole tube numbering system.


----------



## volly

dbaker1981 said:


> What adapter would I get for this? Still new to the whole tube numbering system.


 
 I think you'll find it a few pages back but:
  
 - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4pcs-9pin-B9A-Bakelite-Testing-Tube-Socket-Saver-For-EL84-5670-6DJ8-ECC83-6922-/201096401982?hash=item2ed247943e:g:6iQAAOSwiYFXGEFp - (Socket Saver)
  
 - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1pc-6SN7-TO-ECC88-6DJ8-6N11-6922-6N6P-tube-adapter-for-you-amp-/201079159018?hash=item2ed14078ea:g:3~sAAOSw9mFWLioO - (6sn7 to 6dj8 adapter)
  
 - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/302059816346?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT or any 6sn7 tube.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## HOWIE13

volly said:


> I got the momentum's and chuck them on for some fun, syrupy goodness!
> 
> Ok, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say....Save your money for this 6sn7 setup guys/gals, this is serious schiit!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Great set-up and when you have finished trying various single dual triode octals you can then try dual single triodes, including the FrankenVali set-up.
  
 You have lots of wonderful listening in store for the future.


----------



## r2muchstuff

I have seen pictures of those setups.  They may be too Franken for me (at least for now).
  
 Besides, I have invested enough in tubes over the last 6 months.
  
 Need to enjoy what I got 
  
 r2
  
 Edit - This amp provides a lot of fun and great sound.  Spending more listening time with it right now over my other amps.


----------



## claud W

Since I have lots of NOS 6SN7/VT-231s etc, I just ordered 2 of both items. I could not figure out if I needed 1 or 2 9 pin socket savers before I attached the 6SN7 0ne. Anyone using the socket savers from Tube Monger??


----------



## r2muchstuff

Yes, one will do for the Valli 2.  Valhalla 2 needs two savers stacked then the adapter, have not tried that though.
  
 r2


----------



## claud W

r2muchstuff said:


> Yes, one will do for the Valli 2.  Valhalla 2 needs two savers stacked then the adapter, have not tried that though.
> 
> r2


 

 Well, I guess I am prepared for FrankinVali2. I ordered two 9 pin socket savers on Ebay and the 9 pin to 6SN7 converter. I then ordered one of Tubemonger's fancy socket savers to see if it made any difference. Its funny. I have lots of tubes, but never bought a socket saver or converter.


----------



## dbaker1981

r2muchstuff said:


> Yes, one will do for the Valli 2.  Valhalla 2 needs two savers stacked then the adapter, have not tried that though.
> 
> r2





And what is a frankinvali 2 by chance?


----------



## bharris

Pretty sure he's just referring to the Vali 2 fitted with adapters to accept giant tubes like the 6sn7 on the previous page. IT'S ALIVE...


----------



## r2muchstuff

dbaker1981 said:


> And what is a frankinvali 2 by chance?


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> Great set-up and when you have finished trying various single dual triode octals you can then try dual single triodes, including the FrankenVali set-up.
> 
> You have lots of wonderful listening in store for the future.


 
 What HOWIE13 said.  Using an adapter to allow the use of two single triodes.  
  
 r2


----------



## AviP

dbaker1981 said:


> And what is a frankinvali 2 by chance?


 

 Something like this


----------



## r2muchstuff

nwavesailor said:


> As Monty Python would say:
> 
> "Now for something COMPLETELY different!"
> 
> ...


 
  
  post #343


----------



## dbaker1981

That's cool looking. I'm not there yet though. Lol


----------



## HOWIE13

Hey Guys
  
 Well done for knowing/working out what Frankenvali is
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 For some reason I can't recall, I posted it on the Ember site, though it should be here too.
 Anyway, it was originally intended to refer to dual 7193 or 2C22 tubes, with the 'monstrous' wires, but could apply to any dual single triode set up as you have already described.
  
 Here's part of the original post. Enjoy their lush, capacious soundstage.
  
_'The wires are to connect to the two metal terminals at the top of 7193/2C22 type tubes. In the Ember this setup is called FrankenEmber, so in the Vali it could be called FrankenVali' (#1571,Project Ember Tube Rolling)_


----------



## thekorsen

Quick question about those 6sn7 tubes, do they get hot in the vali 2?


----------



## r2muchstuff

My setup runs cooler than normal tubes and no socket saver. 
  
 Normal tubes with socket saver runs cooler also.
  
 r2


----------



## thekorsen

r2muchstuff said:


> My setup runs cooler than normal tubes and no socket saver.
> 
> Normal tubes with socket saver runs cooler also.
> 
> r2


 
 Awesome, guess I'm going $35 deep on a 6sn7 mouse ears with a converter then.


----------



## volly

How do I feel about the 6sn7 tube conversion:
  
 First impressions:
  

  
 Second impression:
  

  
 That is all!


----------



## bgaugs

Hey everyone, so I recently got the vali 2 in with a 6922EH, listening with my K7xx. I've been running them for probably around 20 hours now, and I feel like I'm missing something. So many of you have fallen in love with this amp and swapping tubes, but I just can't seem to find a noticeable difference between this amp and going straight into my phone (HTC 10) or computer other than volume increase.
  
 Maybe I'm missing very slight nuances, but I've been listening to music which should show the difference pretty clearly- Coltrane, Hiatus Kaiyote, Depeche Mode. I've been listening to how deep, extended and pronounced the reverb and sound stage is on specific points in the music and just can't find a difference. The posts above about using that 6sn7 tube has my mouth watering but I'm afraid to dump more money into this amp only to be unimpressed again.
  
 I've heard that the Little Dot I+ has a more pronounced alteration of the sound especially with tube rolling, and its on Massdrop right now for ~$100 less than the Vali2...unless I can figure out what I'm missing I'm probably going to return it and go the LD route.


----------



## bharris

I would recommend you try another tube before you throw in the towel and sell it. What qualities are you looking for from your amp? Just generally thicker sound? Warmer, rounder, tubier? I picked up an EH 6GC7 for $15 and it brought the mids out  and made everything much sweeter. You've already got the amp, I'm sure it wouldn't take a huge investment to find out if there's another combo that would give you what you're looking for.


----------



## Tuneslover

bgaugs said:


> Hey everyone, so I recently got the vali 2 in with a 6922EH, listening with my K7xx. I've been running them for probably around 20 hours now, and I feel like I'm missing something. So many of you have fallen in love with this amp and swapping tubes, but I just can't seem to find a noticeable difference between this amp and going straight into my phone (HTC 10) or computer other than volume increase.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing very slight nuances, but I've been listening to music which should show the difference pretty clearly- Coltrane, Hiatus Kaiyote, Depeche Mode. I've been listening to how deep, extended and pronounced the reverb and sound stage is on specific points in the music and just can't find a difference. The posts above about using that 6sn7 tube has my mouth watering but I'm afraid to dump more money into this amp only to be unimpressed again.
> 
> I've heard that the Little Dot I+ has a more pronounced alteration of the sound especially with tube rolling, and its on Massdrop right now for ~$100 less than the Vali2...unless I can figure out what I'm missing I'm probably going to return it and go the LD route.




I hear ya and kind of get what you're saying. I added a Modi MB and that really made my setup crazy good.


----------



## bharris

Oh, "return", not "sell". I must have misread that before. That does change things a bit.
  
 As an owner of both Little Dot 1+ and Vali 2 I can say that I do feel as though the shifts in sound are more pronounced with the Dot. I feel like I have more of an emotional connection with my Little Dot than I do with my Vali but I'm not sure that it's what I would keep if I were only to have one amp.
  
 There are certain pairings, like my LA- D5000's / Little Dot 1+ / CV-4015's, which present female vocals in the most intimate way it gives me goosebumps on a regular basis (something I haven't experienced with the Vali 2). Unfortunately, that particular combo is limited and sounds pretty weak with most of my music. The hassle of having to open the amp and fiddle with jumpers and, most times, consult a manual to make sure that I'm set up correctly for the tubes I'm putting in is extraordinary. I really don't get around to it much. It's a great little amp, a great value, and definitely one that rewards rolling but, unfortunately, the usability's not great. If you're new to tubes and you want to experiment inexpensively it's a great choice. The Vali is much more plug and play and also more consistent from my experience.


----------



## rnros

bgaugs said:


> Hey everyone, so I recently got the vali 2 in with a 6922EH, listening with my K7xx. I've been running them for probably around 20 hours now, and I feel like I'm missing something. So many of you have fallen in love with this amp and swapping tubes, but I just can't seem to find a noticeable difference between this amp and going straight into my phone (HTC 10) or computer other than volume increase.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing very slight nuances, but I've been listening to music which should show the difference pretty clearly- Coltrane, Hiatus Kaiyote, Depeche Mode. I've been listening to how deep, extended and pronounced the reverb and sound stage is on specific points in the music and just can't find a difference. The posts above about using that 6sn7 tube has my mouth watering but I'm afraid to dump more money into this amp only to be unimpressed again.
> 
> I've heard that the Little Dot I+ has a more pronounced alteration of the sound especially with tube rolling, and its on Massdrop right now for ~$100 less than the Vali2...unless I can figure out what I'm missing I'm probably going to return it and go the LD route.


 

 Everything will need more time to burn-in but additionally I would ask: How are you feeding signal to the amp?


----------



## rnros

bgaugs said:


> Hey everyone, so I recently got the vali 2 in with a 6922EH, listening with my K7xx.


 
  
 Thought this other discussion on trying to dial-in a new Vali2 might be of interest:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/790828/official-schiit-vali-2-thread/1545#post_12886446


----------



## claud W

OK you guys using 6SN7s in your Vali 2, how does it sound? Which 6SN7s are you using? I have always thought, "Bigger tube=Bigger sound"


----------



## Bleether

rnros said:


> Thought this other discussion on trying to dial-in a new Vali2 might be of interest:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/790828/official-schiit-vali-2-thread/1545#post_12886446


 He sounds like he is in the same boat I'm in. The k712s have opened up a little more on the low end. Still not where I'd like it to be, but ~30 hours of burn in has made a noticeable difference.

I've pulled the trigger on the Reflector 6H23p-EB from tube store. Pretty excited about rolling in my first Russian tube. http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6922-E88CC-Tube-Types/6H23n-EB-6922 Anyone know what year this thing is? Also what up with the tube being spelled "reflector" vs "reflektor"?


----------



## rnros

bleether said:


> He sounds like he is in the same boat I'm in. The k712s have opened up a little more on the low end. Still not where I'd like it to be, but ~30 hours of burn in has made a noticeable difference.
> 
> I've pulled the trigger on the Reflector 6H23p-EB from tube store. Pretty excited about rolling in my first Russian tube. http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6922-E88CC-Tube-Types/6H23n-EB-6922 Anyone know what year this thing is? Also what up with the tube being spelled "reflector" vs "reflektor"?


 

 The photo shows 8911 which would be NOV 1989.
 Both spellings are used. Don't know which is correct, but I've seen Russian sellers using both.


----------



## Bleether

rnros said:


> The photo shows 8911 which would be NOV 1989.
> Both spellings are used. Don't know which is correct, but I've seen Russian sellers using both.


 
  
  Okay that should make it easier searching ebay for stuff. Seems like there are more listings as "Reflector".


----------



## rnros

bleether said:


> Okay that should make it easier searching ebay for stuff. Seems like there are more listings as "Reflector".


 
 Here is a Russian vacuum tube resource with basic data for all Russian tubes. Might be useful in the future as you explore additional tube types.
  
 http://www.russiantubes.com/tubes.php?r=12


----------



## bgaugs

rnros said:


> Everything will need more time to burn-in but additionally I would ask: How are you feeding signal to the amp?


 
 I'm going from my laptop to 3.5 -> RCA -> Vali2 -> 1/4 adapter ->K7xx


----------



## rnros

bgaugs said:


> I'm going from my laptop to 3.5 -> RCA -> Vali2 -> 1/4 adapter ->K7xx


 

 Are you going from the headphone out line?


----------



## Bleether

rnros said:


> Here is a Russian vacuum tube resource with basic data for all Russian tubes. Might be useful in the future as you explore additional tube types.
> 
> http://www.russiantubes.com/tubes.php?r=12


 

  +1


----------



## bgaugs

rnros said:


> Are you going from the headphone out line?


 
 Yes the 3.5 mm jack


----------



## rnros

bgaugs said:


> Yes the 3.5 mm jack


 

 Responded to your question posted in the Official Schiit Vali2 thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/790828/official-schiit-vali-2-thread/1590#post_12900118


----------



## thekorsen

Just got my Vali 2 back from Schiit (went in for repairs) and I wanted to post some tube impressions so far. This will be an odd set of impressions because the stock tube was not returned with the amp since I stupidly sent it with it (they ask you not to for this reason), so the tubes will be compared against each other without the stock tube as a benchmark. The differences are all marginal but can shift the emphasis on different instruments of many songs.
  
 Tests done with: ODAC -> Vali 2 -> HD800 / TH-X00
  
 EH 6922 - *The neutral-ish tube*, pretty even in response. It offered a more airy presentation and deeper sound stage (likely due not having a emphasis in the 6k presence region that the other tubes seemed to have.) Sub-bass doesn't seem to roll off like the others. Not the most exciting, not too boring and nothing really seems recessed; probably the least offensive tube.
  
 EH 6CG7 - *The instrumental tube*, slightly / shaped response; present vocals + highs, emphasized attack in many instruments, less bass + body, sub bass rolls off. Good for string instrument heavy songs like orchestra.
  
 RCA 6CG7 (questionable quality...bought for $3 on ebay)- *The fun tube*, it feels almost slightly W shaped in response; emphasis in mid-upper base for body, vocals are present (more than the EH 6CG7) and highs are slightly energetic (less than the EH 6CG7). Like the EH 6922 the sub bass does seem to roll off.
  
 Tung-Sol 6SN7GT - (Coming soon, waiting on adapter)
  
 *edit* - Updated impressions.


----------



## tommo21

Here's my favorite tube at the moment. Ken Rad Black Glass 6SN7GT
  
 Unfortunatly it's a bit Microphonic, but the dampers helps a lot for occational bumps to me workdesk.


----------



## Grado Diesel

Just got my Vali 2 this past Friday. Came with the 6BZ7/6BQ7A CANADA tube. Loving it so far but what is another good tube to go with? I listen to a lotta classic rock and some of those 70s recordings where the S's weren't properly eq'd are super fatiguing on the ears. Same with organ rock like ELP and Purple.


----------



## bharris

I'm just got a Voskhod "rocket" 6h23n and it's my new favorite tube for the Vali. Good quantity of tight bass and present mids. I primarily have darker headphones so not much makes my setup overly bright or sparkly but I feel like they're pretty well balanced in terms of warmth and a touch of tubey-ness vs detail.  I actually got two for $10 each (s/h included)  so if you can find one, I think it's a good buy.


----------



## Grado Diesel

bharris said:


> I'm just got a Voskhod "rocket" 6h23n and it's my new favorite tube for the Vali. Good quantity of tight bass and present mids. I primarily have darker headphones so not much makes my setup overly bright or sparkly but I feel like they're pretty well balanced in terms of warmth and a touch of tubey-ness vs detail.  I actually got two for $10 each (s/h included)  so if you can find one, I think it's a good buy.




I'm using Grado Sr-80i's so there's plenty of highs on my cans. They're easily driven and seem sensitive to the highs.


----------



## bharris

grado diesel said:


> I'm using Grado Sr-80i's so there's plenty of highs on my cans. They're easily driven and seem sensitive to the highs.


 
  
 I still wouldn't rule it out, maybe someone else can account for their performance with brighter cans.


----------



## Grado Diesel

bharris said:


> I still wouldn't rule it out, maybe someone else can account for their performance with brighter cans.




I gotta check those out. I'd like to try out a variety of tubes and see what's out there.


----------



## claud W

Using Big Schiit stack to break in Ether Flows so decided to try Ether C's damn the little Schiit Vali 2/ Modi Multibite stack just rocks!!!


----------



## Grado Diesel

claud w said:


> Using Big Schiit stack to break in Ether Flows so decided to try Ether C's damn the little Schiit Vali 2/ Modi Multibite stack just rocks!!!



Does the Schiit Modi sound better than using the built in DAC in players like the Fiio X3?


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Just got a new Schiit Vali 2 today, thinking of trying a golden lion tube for it, i want soundstage and quality bass... so if anyone know any tube that does that for vali 2 just PM me or post here, thanks


----------



## vcmusik

caenlenfromocn said:


> Just got a new Schiit Vali 2 today, thinking of trying a golden lion tube for it, i want soundstage and quality bass... so if anyone know any tube that does that for vali 2 just PM me or post here, thanks


 
 I have exactly that tube, and it does have a nice bottom end. Treble is a bit rolled off but not too much. Soundstage and imaging are pretty good as well. On some well-mastered orchestral recordings, I can easily place where the different instrument sections are placed in the soundscape, particularly strings and percussion.


----------



## HOWIE13

grado diesel said:


> Does the Schiit Modi sound better than using the built in DAC in players like the Fiio X3?


 
  
 YES.


----------



## claud W

howie13 said:


> YES.


 

 Thanks Howie
  
  
 YES YES YES !!!!!!!!!


----------



## Grado Diesel

vcmusik said:


> I have exactly that tube, and it does have a nice bottom end. Treble is a bit rolled off but not too much. Soundstage and imaging are pretty good as well. On some well-mastered orchestral recordings, I can easily place where the different instrument sections are placed in the soundscape, particularly strings and percussion.



That sounds just like what I'm looking for. Where do you find the golden lion tube and what size is it?


----------



## AviP

grado diesel said:


> That sounds just like what I'm looking for. Where do you find the golden lion tube and what size is it?


 
 That's my favorite tube! (So far)
 I got mine at TubeDepot
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/genalex-gold-lion-e88cc-6922-preamp-vacuum-tube


----------



## vcmusik

grado diesel said:


> That sounds just like what I'm looking for. Where do you find the golden lion tube and what size is it?


 
 I got mine from Upscale Audio but you could also do Tube Depot. It took me a little while to get mine because UA was in the middle of moving to a bigger location or something like that, and maybe they still are. But anyway, just for giggles I also got mine cryogenically treated.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

My Golden Lion tube gets here tomorrow (Sunday Prime shipping from Amazon). Can't wait, I already know I like my Vali 2 sound over the Magni 2 though, and that is just with the stock tube... so looking forward to this tube swap


----------



## dbaker1981

Ok got a question. I'm looking to either get a EH 6sn7 with adaptor or a gold lion ECC88. Can anyone tell me the difference between the 2?


----------



## happysappy

I just got my Vali 2 and they sound amazing with my IM02! The body of the product itself isn't premium (lopsided volume knob and headphone jack), but it's not a problem. I'm just glad the tube didn't break, getting shipped all the way to Korea with "special" USPS handling. 
  
 I am very new to tubes and I was wondering if all tubes have the same pins. If not, what kind of pin type/family do I look for? (9-pin? I don't even know how to call them). I have seen several recommended tubes, but I would like to know how to tell if a tube is compatible with the Vali 2. Do I need to look for a specific set of code? 
  
 I have a pair of powered speakers running from the amp through RCA. Due to my lack of knowledge in physics and engineering, I can't tell if the audio going to the speakers actually went through the tube. I can't tell the difference subjectively since the speakers are kinda crap (Kanto Yu3). If I get some passive speakers, would the speakers benefit from the warmth of the tube? I am not familiar with the schematics of these things.
  
 I'm sorry for the questions. I am trying to educate myself. Any useful links to a comprehensive beginner's guide would also be appreciated. Google returned me so many sites, I don't know where to begin. Thank you!


----------



## KoshNaranek

Tubes that can be placed in in the Lyr 2 can go in the Vali
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/755300/schiit-lyr-lyr-2-tube-compatibility-list
  
 If you like a 50s sound, try the ECC804. If you want More Clarity, try ECC88. My favourite in the Valhalla 2 is the JJ ECC88 Gold pin, but these break up in the Lyr. I have not gotten a Vali yet.
  
 Do not go too crazy trying out a multitude of tubes. I did, and I am ashamed of myself.


----------



## happysappy

koshnaranek said:


> Tubes that can be placed in in the Lyr 2 can go in the Vali
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/755300/schiit-lyr-lyr-2-tube-compatibility-list
> 
> ...


 
 I am deeply sorry about your addiction. Maybe it's about time to get some professional help... 
  
 Thanks for the link! I promise myself I won't spend too much money on audio equipment. Hopefully I can stick to it.


----------



## bharris

@happysappy,
 This entire thread is full of suggestions for which tubes to use and what kind of sound you can expect from from them. You definitely need to make sure you're using the right tubes but there are plenty to choose from. There will be suggestions for expensive and rare tubes but also low cost options that you can try without emptying your wallet (and experiencing deep shame. lol. @KoshNaranek). It's good that you already like the sound of your Vali, that means that you can always go back to the stock tube you are using to compare.
  
 As for using your Vali as a preamp, you will probably just have to use your ears and see if it's something that you like. It will depend on the tube you are using, the character of your speakers and the source you are using. The tube is used in the preamp stage of the Vali which is what you will get from the RCA outs but that may or may not be an upgrade to the sound that you're hearing without it. It will be up to your ears!


----------



## KoshNaranek

happysappy said:


> I am deeply sorry about your addiction. Maybe it's about time to get some professional help...
> 
> Thanks for the link! I promise myself I won't spend too much money on audio equipment. Hopefully I can stick to it.




I thank you for your concern. I can now say that I have hit rock bottom as there exist no other tubes for me to buy.

The withdrawal symptoms were severe, but the five step program is working.


----------



## dbaker1981

Can anyone give me there opinion on the difference between a golden lion ecc88 and a telefunken ecc88. Or would you recommend a 6sn7 EH with an adaptor. I would like to get an idea of the differences.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Do tubes limit the sound stage some? I swear the sound stage used to be bigger on my Pioneer SE-A1000 cans before I went to a tube amp... maybe its placebo though lol


----------



## tommo21

caenlenfromocn said:


> Do tubes limit the sound stage some? I swear the sound stage used to be bigger on my Pioneer SE-A1000 cans before I went to a tube amp... maybe its placebo though lol


 
 Different tubes have different soundstage, so it can be limiting, but also better. The 6sn7 tube I use at the moment have quite a wide soundstage.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

tommo21 said:


> Different tubes have different soundstage, so it can be limiting, but also better. The 6sn7 tube I use at the moment have quite a wide soundstage.


 
 what brand? i would like to buy it ^^


----------



## tommo21

caenlenfromocn said:


> what brand? i would like to buy it ^^


 
 Ken Rad 6SN7GT, but I must warn you that it won't add soundstage to Headphones/iem's that don't have good soundstage in themselves.


----------



## bharris

Are you using one of the more expensive iterations (black glass, etc.) or are any of these Ken Rad 6SN7GTs good? I might have to try one...


----------



## tommo21

bharris said:


> Are you using one of the more expensive iterations (black glass, etc.) or are any of these Ken Rad 6SN7GTs good? I might have to try one...


 

 Oh...sorry  it's the Black Glass...should have mentioned that. I have a picture of it on the previous page I think..


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

can someone recommend a a tube for under $30 shipped (amazon or other website) for my vali 2 that has really good sound stage/imaging/bass depth, only ones I own are golden lion, and a cheap $5 RCA one, I am thinking of buying one of the stock ones directly from schiit as i bought my vali 2 so i have not heard the official stock one yet.... unless one of you wants me to sell me yours, PM me on here lol


----------



## thekorsen

caenlenfromocn said:


> can someone recommend a a tube for under $30 shipped (amazon or other website) for my vali 2 that has really good sound stage/imaging/bass depth, only ones I own are golden lion, and a cheap $5 RCA one, I am thinking of buying one of the stock ones directly from schiit as i bought my vali 2 so i have not heard the official stock one yet.... unless one of you wants me to sell me yours, PM me on here lol


 
 Well, I just recently got the Tung-Sol 6sn7 "mouse ears" tube. The soundstage feels vaster and the bass more present than the electro-harmonix 6922 tube I previously favored, so no regrets on leaping on it. If bass and stage depth is your goal, a tube like that might be a step in the right direction.
  
  
 Also, if you don't have a vendetta against equilization or sound processing, I highly recommend trying OOYH (Out of Your Head) software for a better soundstage presentation and bass emphasis (this greatly depends on the chosen effect, the Ultima preset scratches both itches for me). I found that it does require some EQing to properly tune it to your headphone though, but the results when done right speak for themselves.


----------



## HOWIE13

thekorsen said:


> Well, I just recently got the Tung-Sol 6sn7 "mouse ears" tube. The soundstage feels vaster and the bass more present than the electro-harmonix 6922 tube I previously favored, so no regrets on leaping on it. If bass and stage depth is your goal, a tube like that might be a step in the right direction.
> 
> 
> Also, if you don't have a vendetta against equilization or sound processing, I highly recommend trying OOYH (Out of Your Head) software for a better soundstage presentation and bass emphasis (this greatly depends on the chosen effect, the Ultima preset scratches both itches for me). I found that it does require some EQing to properly tune it to your headphone though, but the results when done right speak for themselves.


 
 It's been my experience also that if it's warmth, bass and sound-stage you are after, in general, Octals perform better than 9 pin Novals.


----------



## JoeKickass

My stock 6BZ7 Canada tube had some rattle and was microphonic (I could hear it if I tapped the glass with my fingernail)
  
 but the EH 6922 is rock solid with not a hint of microphonics! Sounds nice too!


----------



## dbaker1981

I got me a gold lion e88cc and have let it burn in for around 24hrs and man this thing is golden with the hd700's.


----------



## vcmusik

dbaker1981 said:


> I got me a *gold* lion e88cc and have let it burn in for around 24hrs and man this thing is *golden* with the hd700's.


 
 I see what you did there...


----------



## Grado Diesel

I'm looking to do my first tube roll with my Vali 2. My cans are a pair of Grado SR80i's. I've got two tubes I'm thinking about getting: Electro-Harmonix 6922 EH Gold Pin and the 
Genalex - Gold Lion E88CC / 6922. What would you guys recommend? The Grados are easy to drive and could possibly benefit from a slight smoothening/roll-off of the highs.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

My gold lion tube e288cc arrived today as well everyone, lol
  
 mine has been burning in for about 3 hours now. I have not listened it yet, but I looked at the innards of it, and the quality is 100x better just to the naked eye than my cheap $5 tube I was using from RCA... can't wait to hear these babies
  
 @grado diseel i have the E-Harmonix tube arriving next week, will be comparing both with stock and posting my thoughts here late next week, or PM me if I forget, cheers


----------



## dbaker1981

caenlenfromocn said:


> My gold lion tube e288cc arrived today as well everyone, lol
> 
> mine has been burning in for about 3 hours now. I have not listened it yet, but I looked at the innards of it, and the quality is 100x better just to the naked eye than my cheap $5 tube I was using from RCA... can't wait to hear these babies
> 
> @grado diseel i have the E-Harmonix tube arriving next week, will be comparing both with stock and posting my thoughts here late next week, or PM me if I forget, cheers




I also have the EH as well. It is also a very good tube. A little more bright but still very nice.


----------



## Tuneslover

dbaker1981 said:


> I also have the EH as well. It is also a very good tube. A little more bright but still very nice.



You find the EH 6922 bright? To me it's the darkest tube I have in my V2.


----------



## dbaker1981

tuneslover said:


> You find the EH 6922 bright? To me it's the darkest tube I have in my V2.




I find it a smidge brighter than my gold lion. But I probably said that wrong cause it's not really bright by any means.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

My golden lion tube paired with my Fostex T20RP Mark 3's is pure heaven. Made the vocals almost T50's level, bass is still insane love, increased sound stage which these cans struggled with before...
  
 Golden Lion is life. Golden Lion is love.  Til the day I die ~


----------



## JoeKickass

I joined the Gold Lion club! Sound is a bit fuller than the EH 6922, but they're both very good IMO.
  
 I did a photo examination between the tubes I have so far and *the internals seem to match the performance*.
  
 Left is the stock Canada 6BZ7, mid is the EH 6922, and right is the Genalex E88CC Gold Lion:


  
  
 Here is a close up of the Stock vs EH 6922:

  
 And a close up of the EH 6922 vs GL E88CC:

  
 If you click the close up photos and then view the "original" resolution, look past the plate at the thin lines running across the "cathode" rods.
 I think that's the "grid" of the tube.
  
 I notice the stock tube's grid wiring isn't nearly as fine as the EH or the GL, it also has much smaller plates, and the getter is much skinnier. 
 The EH and the GL almost look identical. I think the plate and getter are very slightly different but the grid + cathode look exactly the same to me.
 The wiring at the bottom for both the EH and GL also looks more precise than the stock tube.
  
 Here's a diagram with names for the bits:

  
 I'm sure that flimsy getter on the stock tube was at least partly responsible for the bad microphonics it had...
 It's kind of cool that you can examine a vacuum tube and get a good idea of the quality, try doing that with a semiconductor! (well without looking up the P/N)


----------



## dbaker1981

Well I just pulled the trigger on a NOS Sylvania 6sl7GT with a adaptor. Now the long wait for shipping from china on the adaptor.


----------



## RickB

Got the Philips PCC88 recently and I'm thinking I may have made a mistake. I find that the tube has a pretty big bump in the mids. I'm using it with the Senn HD650, which is already strong in the mids. I'm finding the combo to be a bit too much. I can see where it could be described as "exciting" but I have to listen at pretty low volume.
  
 I have about 150 hours on the tube. Does anybody else with experience of this tube think that running it for more hours might make the mids relax a bit, or is it as burned in as it's going to get?


----------



## KoshNaranek

rickb said:


> Got the Philips PCC88 recently and I'm thinking I may have made a mistake. I find that the tube has a pretty big bump in the mids. I'm using it with the Senn HD650, which is already strong in the mids. I'm finding the combo to be a bit too much. I can see where it could be described as "exciting" but I have to listen at pretty low volume.
> 
> I have about 150 hours on the tube. Does anybody else with experience of this tube think that running it for more hours might make the mids relax a bit, or is it as burned in as it's going to get?




My experience with that tube is exactly as you describe it. Personally, I would call it relaxed already, but that is just semantics.

The JJ standard pin sound a lot like Telefunkens to me, the Gold pins are fuller. I think these tubes are good starting points as they are easy to get and represent extremely good value.

These impressions are on the Lyr2 and Valhalla 2. YMMV


----------



## RickB

koshnaranek said:


> My experience with that tube is exactly as you describe it. Personally, I would call it relaxed already, but that is just semantics.
> 
> The JJ standard pin sound a lot like Telefunkens to me, the Gold pins are fuller. I think these tubes are good starting points as they are easy to get and represent extremely good value.
> 
> These impressions are on the Lyr2 and Valhalla 2. YMMV


 
 Thanks. I may check out the JJ.


----------



## dbaker1981

rickb said:


> Got the Philips PCC88 recently and I'm thinking I may have made a mistake. I find that the tube has a pretty big bump in the mids. I'm using it with the Senn HD650, which is already strong in the mids. I'm finding the combo to be a bit too much. I can see where it could be described as "exciting" but I have to listen at pretty low volume.
> 
> I have about 150 hours on the tube. Does anybody else with experience of this tube think that running it for more hours might make the mids relax a bit, or is it as burned in as it's going to get?




I'd give the gold lion e88cc a shot. Wonderful sound.


----------



## RickB

dbaker1981 said:


> I'd give the gold lion e88cc a shot. Wonderful sound.


 
 Noted, thanks.


----------



## KoshNaranek

dbaker1981 said:


> I'd give the gold lion e88cc a shot. Wonderful sound.




That is the one tube I have not tried yet. I have decided to stop buying tubes though. I have reached the point where I totaled how much I spent and realized that I exhibited behavior consistent with an addict.


----------



## JoeKickass

koshnaranek said:


> That is the one tube I have not tried yet. I have decided to stop buying tubes though. I have reached the point where I totaled how much I spent and realized that I exhibited behavior consistent with an addict.


 
  
 It's only a problem if you pay attention to it, I would just archive the email receipts and get another credit card! 
  
 After all it's only money... to spend is human, to hear music at it's best is divine.


----------



## KoshNaranek

joekickass said:


> It's only a problem if you pay attention to it, I would just archive the email receipts and get another credit card!
> 
> After all it's only money... to spend is human, to hear music at it's best is divine.
> 
> :atsmile:




The problem with this hobby is that the only way that you know that you have gone far enough is to realize that you went too far.


----------



## KoshNaranek

koshnaranek said:


> The problem with this hobby is that the only way that you know that you have gone far enough is to realize that you went too far.




It is not the money that bothered me, it wss the "unfillable mouth" behavior.(Lobha) It was not my best side. Hence, my previous post about my shame.


----------



## rnros

rickb said:


> Got the Philips PCC88 recently and I'm thinking I may have made a mistake. I find that the tube has a pretty big bump in the mids. I'm using it with the Senn HD650, which is already strong in the mids. I'm finding the combo to be a bit too much. I can see where it could be described as "exciting" but I have to listen at pretty low volume.
> 
> I have about 150 hours on the tube. Does anybody else with experience of this tube think that running it for more hours might make the mids relax a bit, or is it as burned in as it's going to get?


 

 At 150 hours, it probably won't change much. To be honest, I wouldn't call a tube "exciting" if you have "to listen at pretty low volume." I would call that 'annoying,' there is some excessive distortion or resonance going on. Not a great tube, OK, but not great, and it does have a slight excess and diffusion in the upper bass/lower mids, and correct, combined with the HD650, it could be intolerable.
  
 How old, or burned, are the HD650s?
  
 I agree the Gold Lions are a step in the right direction (don't have the JJs), but they still have a full upper bass/lower mids, although better defined. There are some others that have a little less emphasis in that area.


----------



## RickB

rnros said:


> At 150 hours, it probably won't change much. To be honest, I wouldn't call a tube "exciting" if you have "to listen at pretty low volume." I would call that 'annoying,' there is some excessive distortion or resonance going on. Not a great tube, OK, but not great, and it does have a slight excess and diffusion in the upper bass/lower mids, and correct, combined with the HD650, it could be intolerable.
> 
> How old, or burned, are the HD650s?
> 
> I agree the Gold Lions are a step in the right direction (don't have the JJs), but they still have a full upper bass/lower mids, although better defined. There are some others that have a little less emphasis in that area.


 
 The HD650s have about 350 hours on them.
  
 My favorite tube so far has been an NOS Sylvania 6DJ8. However, I'd really like to find a current production tube that is as good. I don't like buying NOS tubes, they are either too expensive or iffy in quality and it feels like a form of gambling.


----------



## KoshNaranek

rickb said:


> The HD650s have about 350 hours on them.
> 
> My favorite tube so far has been an NOS Sylvania 6DJ8. However, I'd really like to find a current production tube that is as good. I don't like buying NOS tubes, they are either too expensive or iffy in quality and it feels like a form of gambling.




I liked the Sylvania among my NOS tubes as well. Here is the final order my tubes ranked, for what its worth:
1. JJ Gold pin
2. NOS 7308 Mullard 
3. NOS Telefunken E88CC
4. JJ standard pin
5. NOS Sylvania
6. NOS Phillips PCC88
7. NOS Toshiba PCC88
8. NOS Mazda ECC804
9. Electro Harmonix E88CC
10. GE 6bz7 (stock tube)


----------



## RickB

koshnaranek said:


> I liked the Sylvania among my NOS tubes as well. Here is the final order my tubes ranked, for what its worth:
> 1. JJ Gold pin
> 2. NOS 7308 Mullard
> 3. NOS Telefunken E88CC
> ...


 
 Thanks, that's very helpful.


----------



## KoshNaranek

rickb said:


> Thanks, that's very helpful.




My pleasure


----------



## KoshNaranek

You may find this interesting. Mullard factory tour

https://youtu.be/GDvF89Bh27Y


----------



## tommo21

New day, new...old tube:

 National Union VT-99/6f8G


----------



## LazyBonesIH

Wow, looks like another FrankenVali! How does it sound?


----------



## Faber65

Bloody hell!!!
I am shocked!


----------



## tommo21

lazybonesih said:


> Wow, looks like another FrankenVali! How does it sound?


 
 Well.... I thought the 6sn7 was the best sounding tube on the Vali 2, but this...this takes another step(or even two) forward. It's even more spacious and 3D sounding, with deep punchy bass. It's an unused tube, so I will let it play for 30-50 hours before I will judge more on treble extension and air. But so far it's extremely good.
  
 I played Paul Simons 50 ways to leave your lover, and the echo on the snaredrums in the beginning have never been so detailed and "real" as with this tube.


----------



## Grado Diesel

tommo21 said:


> New day, new...old tube:
> 
> 
> National Union VT-99/6f8G


 
What's that adaptor called and where do you get them? Looks killer!


----------



## Grado Diesel

I just ordered my Genalex Gold Lion E88CC / 6922. I can't wait to get it. This be my first tube roll!


----------



## dbaker1981

grado diesel said:


> I just ordered my Genalex Gold Lion E88CC / 6922. I can't wait to get it. This be my first tube roll!




Good choice. So far my favorite e88cc.


----------



## KoshNaranek

grado diesel said:


> I just ordered my Genalex Gold Lion E88CC / 6922. I can't wait to get it. This be my first tube roll!




If you feel the inclined, I would be interested in a direct comparison of that tube to the JJ gold. Please stop me from doing it myself.


----------



## LazyBonesIH

Bought myself another 6SN7 tube / valve it arrived today, anyone know anything about these?
  

  
 Must admit never heard of the make, though amused me slightly this tube / valve linked with a Schiit Vali 2.


----------



## r2muchstuff

google - Mad Man Muntz 
  
 He did some crazy stuff, like make TV as cheap as possible.
  
 r2


----------



## chef8489

Has anyone had the chance to compare the Electro-Harmonix 6922 Gold and the Philips pCC86 tube?


----------



## LazyBonesIH

Thanks r2
  
 Quote:


r2muchstuff said:


> google - Mad Man Muntz
> 
> He did some crazy stuff, like make TV as cheap as possible.
> 
> r2


 
  
 I did google him, certainly a colourful character.
  
 Looks like someone mispelled the tube name, makes me wonder if it is a Tung-Sol as also written.


----------



## r2muchstuff

lazybonesih said:


> I did google him, certainly a colourful character.
> 
> Looks like someone mispelled the tube name, makes me wonder if it is a Tung-Sol as also written.


 
  
 I have two Tung Sol 6SN7 GTB and they sound excellent in the Vali 2.
  
 Check the codes on the glass and construction of tube, you may need to research Tung Sol tube info or at least 6SN7 info.  Only way to be sure what you have.
 Otherwise, just plug them in an listen to music.
  
 r2


----------



## HOWIE13

lazybonesih said:


> I did google him, certainly a colourful character.
> 
> Looks like someone mispelled the tube name, makes me wonder if it is a Tung-Sol as also written.


 
  
 It has the Tung-Sol 332 code and the rest of the numbers probably indicate that the tube was made by the third shift of the day in the 37th week of 1963.
  
 It's a very nice Tung-Sol tube -I use them quite a lot- euphonic and engaging for me.


----------



## LazyBonesIH

howie13 said:


> It has the Tung-Sol 332 code and the rest of the numbers probably indicate that the tube was made by the third shift of the day in the 37th week of 1963.
> 
> It's a very nice Tung-Sol tube -I use them quite a lot- euphonic and engaging for me.


 
 Wow HOWIE13, thank you, it makes it about one year older than this foreign born celt. I do appreciate your efforts and advice.
  
 Thank you
 Ian


----------



## HOWIE13

lazybonesih said:


> Wow HOWIE13, thank you, it makes it about one year older than this foreign born celt. I do appreciate your efforts and advice.
> 
> Thank you
> Ian


 
  
 My pleasure.


----------



## rgmffn

dbaker1981 said:


> I got me a gold lion e88cc and have let it burn in for around 24hrs and man this thing is golden with the hd700's.


 
  
  


caenlenfromocn said:


> My golden lion tube paired with my Fostex T20RP Mark 3's is pure heaven. Made the vocals almost T50's level, bass is still insane love, increased sound stage which these cans struggled with before...
> 
> Golden Lion is life. Golden Lion is love.  Til the day I die ~


 
  
  


joekickass said:


> I joined the Gold Lion club! Sound is a bit fuller than the EH 6922, but they're both very good IMO.
> 
> I did a photo examination between the tubes I have so far and *the internals seem to match the performance*.


 
  
 Chalk up another Gold Lion fan.  Although I already have these..
  
 Stock - ITT 6BQ7A (Japan)
             JJ6922 / E88CC
             EH- 6922  (2)
             Tesla E88CC
             EH- 6CG7
             National 7DJ8
             BEL E88CC NOS tube made in India in the late 60s/early70s (a Philips clone)
  
 I was itchin' to try something else. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I've been using the BEL pretty much exclusively for the past 6mos or so. I've gone back occasionally to experiment with some of the others, but usually put the BEL back in there in short order. It's been the best sounding tube I have for my HE-400i's without question. 
  
 I got the Gold Lion about a week ago.  I instantly liked what I heard.  It was a fuller sounding tube, bigger soundstage.  This, was after only about 10 min of warmup though.  I listened to a couple albums. But I noticed there was a veil, especially noticeable with vocals.  I put the BEL tube back in to confirm it. Yep!  The BEL tube is soo clean, clear and forward sounding.  Although sometimes a little sharp, with the somewhat bright sounding 400i's.
  
 I put the Gold Lion back in the Vali 2 and left it burn in overnight. When I got back, probably 15 hrs or so to give it another listen, the veil was all but gone! It just opened up to a great soundstage, improved bass response, and nice and smooth sounding overall. And bit warmer. Top end was just perfect. It sounds more tubey, than the BEL for sure.  It really matches up nicely with the 400i's as they are fast and sometimes a little bright if you're not careful with what you're pairing with. The more tubey sound really improved them for the better. They are not noted for having much soundstage either. ++  I think it's a great match.
  
 I've been going through some of my collection and it's like they say, it's almost like hearing it for the first time. again!  
  
 Given the price of the BEL, the Gold Lion is now my recommended tube for those looking for an upgrade to the stock one.
  
 I'm really liking it!


----------



## doors1991

Thank you very much for the feedback.
 i am not very satisfied with the stock tube.
 I have the sennheiser hd 600 btw.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Chalk up another Gold Lion fan.  Although I already have these..

Stock - ITT 6BQ7A (Japan)
            JJ6922 / E88CC
            EH- 6922  (2)
            Tesla E88CC
            EH- 6CG7
            National 7DJ8
            BEL E88CC NOS tube made in India in the late 60s/early70s (a Philips clone)





Do you have the Standard JJ or the gold?


----------



## rgmffn

koshnaranek said:


> Chalk up another Gold Lion fan.  Although I already have these..
> 
> Stock - ITT 6BQ7A (Japan)
> JJ6922 / E88CC
> ...


 
 Standard. I'm not very fond of it.


----------



## KoshNaranek

rgmffn said:


> Standard. I'm not very fond of it.





I found the gold to be remarkably different.

Gold lion is one of New Sensor's brands. My previous experience with their products was spotty. I'm resistant to giving them another try.


----------



## JoeKickass

rgmffn said:


> ...I put the Gold Lion back in the Vali 2 and left it burn in overnight. When I got back, probably 15 hrs or so to give it another listen, the veil was all but gone!...


 
  
 I can attest to a long burn-in helping the Gold Lion, when I first got it I thought it was fairly similar to the EH 6922 (haven't tried burning in that very long though...)
  
 But now that I have about 20 hours on it I tried A/Bing with the EH 6922 and I agree with rgmffn it is noticeably clearer!


----------



## Grado Diesel

Just got my Gold Lion and fired it up today, all day. Phenomenal. Love the rolloff of the brittle highs, kick in the bass and widened sound stage. I also notice I have to (or get to ) crank up the volume more with this tube. Stellar, love it.


----------



## rgmffn

grado diesel said:


> Just got my Gold Lion and fired it up today, all day. Phenomenal. Love the rolloff of the brittle highs, kick in the bass and widened sound stage. *I also notice I have to (or get to ) crank up the volume more with this tube.* Stellar, love it.


 
 Yes!  I noticed this too!


----------



## JoeKickass

Happy Halloween Everyone!
  

  
  
 My Vali 2 was feeling the spirit!


----------



## rgmffn

joekickass said:


> Happy Halloween Everyone!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Ha ha.. you silly!


----------



## AviP

I just got the Reflector 6H23p-EB from thetubestore.com last night and this tube is definitely the best one I've used so far (I have Electro-harmonix, Gold Lion and Stock), it's just awesome!
 I'm not good at describing sound, but the reviews on thetubestore.com basically sum it up. I highly recommend this tube!


----------



## dbaker1981

Im still waiting on my adaptor to try my 6sl7. Man shipping from china sucks.


----------



## HOWIE13

dbaker1981 said:


> Im still waiting on my adaptor to try my 6sl7. Man shipping from china sucks.


 
  
 The Russian 6H9C tube works fine and sounded good, warm and euphonic -but I won't be able to do any proper comparisons with other tubes as I'm concentrating just now on another amplifier. Also, I don't know that the 6SL7 is totally identical to the Russian 6H9C in every respect.
  
 It often takes 4-6 weeks for stuff to get to the UK from China, depends a lot on Customs..
 Sometimes they give tracking details, sometimes not- very hit and miss.


----------



## doors1991

i am from europe and i want to buy the gold lion.
 Are these legit : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genalex-GOLD-LION-E88CC-6922-Tube-Rohre-NEU-ECC88-/391065409132?hash=item5b0d50966c:g:8YgAAOxy79JSYAO- ?


----------



## YtseJamer

I'm having a lot of fun with the NightHawk and the Vali 2 (w/ Electro-Harmonix 6CG7 tube)


----------



## dbaker1981

I guess the 6sn7/6sl7 doesnt glow much. It sounds wonderful.


----------



## HOWIE13

dbaker1981 said:


> I guess the 6sn7/6sl7 doesnt glow much. It sounds wonderful.


 
  
 Hi
  
 Is that the 6SL7 tube?


----------



## dbaker1981

howie13 said:


> Hi
> 
> Is that the 6SL7 tube?




Yes a Sylvania NOS 6sl7gt


----------



## HOWIE13

dbaker1981 said:


> Yes a Sylvania NOS 6sl7gt


 
  
 Excellent-I'm so glad you like it.
  
 I thought the 6H9C Russian equivalent sounded very good but I didn't have time to really compare it to any other tubes. Now I'll look forward to trying some 6SL7's too.


----------



## bokononista

Hi guys,


I got a Shiit Vali 2 with a stock tube (68Z7 6BQ7A in a frame and CANADA written under it), I like the sound but i like to try to improve it with a better tube. Does anybody tried some tubes with Beyerdynamics DT880 (250 ohms) headphones? Thanks.


----------



## volly

Let's go...


----------



## AviP

avip said:


> I just got the Reflector 6H23p-EB from thetubestore.com last night and this tube is definitely the best one I've used so far (I have Electro-harmonix, Gold Lion and Stock), it's just awesome!
> I'm not good at describing sound, but the reviews on thetubestore.com basically sum it up. I highly recommend this tube!


 
 After using it for a couple weeks it's been burned in and I now prefer the Gold Lion (again).
 It's a great tube, but the soundstage is narrower than the GL and it's less sparkly.
 I just thought that people might want to know.


----------



## Steakface

Hey all, I've read through this thread and found everything to be quite informative.  I love my Vali 2 and have been trying to nail down my preferred sound signature.  I'm using it with Hifiman HE-400i.  I'm looking for a tube with a particular sound signature as I'm a little sensitive to treble and harshness, something that possibly combines the sound signatures of some of the tubes I already own.
  
 I really like the soundstage and low end extension of my 6CG7 RCA Clear Top and Philips 7DJ8, but they can get a little too hot/harsh in the treble at times.  The 6CG7 RCA Clear Top is a soundstage and low end beast and I absolutely love it, more-so than the Philips.  It's a shame that it gets a little bright with my 400i at times.
  
 The laid back signature of my 6CG7 RCA Black Plate and 6CG7 Electro Harmonix is more in-line with my tastes, but they sacrifice soundstage and low end extension.  Both are great tubes, I think I like the RCA Black Plate more than the EH - sometimes the EH sounds like the mids have been sucked out, and the RCA has slightly better staging.  It's a shame they lack low end extension.
  
 Other tubes I've tried are the JJ Gold Pin 6922 and the Sovtek 6N1P.  The JJ was so luscious and rich in the mids but had a very closed in sound stage and lacked bass, while the the Sovtek is dynamic and had the bass but is also grainy and harsh and didn't have a good soundstage.
  
*My question:* is there a laid back tube that doesn't sacrifice soundstage and bass extension (sub bass)?  Forgive me if someone already covered this in the thread, I've read through it and couldn't come to any conclusion.
  
 Thank you!


----------



## claud W

After using Russian Reflectors and Voshkod 6H23p 75 and 74 tubes, last night I decided to return to NOS tubes. My D getter Amperex was only so--so, but the Siemens CCa sings sweetly. The Telefunken goes in next


----------



## Faber65

claud w said:


> After using Russian Reflectors and Voshkod 6H23p 75 and 74 tubes, last night I decided to return to NOS tubes. My D getter Amperex was only so--so, but the Siemens CCa sings sweetly. The Telefunken goes in next




Interesting "that" socket saver....


----------



## Skarecrow77

steakface said:


> Hey all, I've read through this thread and found everything to be quite informative.  I love my Vali 2 and have been trying to nail down my preferred sound signature.  I'm using it with Hifiman HE-400i.  I'm looking for a tube with a particular sound signature as I'm a little sensitive to treble and harshness, something that possibly combines the sound signatures of some of the tubes I already own.
> 
> I really like the soundstage and low end extension of my 6CG7 RCA Clear Top and Philips 7DJ8, but they can get a little too hot/harsh in the treble at times.  The 6CG7 RCA Clear Top is a soundstage and low end beast and I absolutely love it, more-so than the Philips.  It's a shame that it gets a little bright with my 400i at times.
> 
> ...


 


 Is your Philips 7DJ8 made in Herleen or an Ei?

 I've got a '57 Herleen (miniwatt) and a '74 Ei (philips). The midrange on the Ei is a bit pronounced (which I like on most cans. it's a bit much on some tunes on my NAD HP50s, but perfect on my Oppo PM3s), however the soundstage is unlike anything I've heard so far. It's nuts. I liked it more on my wife's 400i's than the Herleen (which is weird because I liked the Herleen better with my HD-650s and my wife's DT-880s).


----------



## HOWIE13

steakface said:


> Hey all, I've read through this thread and found everything to be quite informative.  I love my Vali 2 and have been trying to nail down my preferred sound signature.  I'm using it with Hifiman HE-400i.  I'm looking for a tube with a particular sound signature as I'm a little sensitive to treble and harshness, something that possibly combines the sound signatures of some of the tubes I already own.
> 
> I really like the soundstage and low end extension of my 6CG7 RCA Clear Top and Philips 7DJ8, but they can get a little too hot/harsh in the treble at times.  The 6CG7 RCA Clear Top is a soundstage and low end beast and I absolutely love it, more-so than the Philips.  It's a shame that it gets a little bright with my 400i at times.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Tough question to answer. 
  
 You could try Octals, which require a Noval 9 pin socket saver and 6SN7 to ECC88 adapter.
  
 If you decide to try Octals, a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT 'Mouse Ears' may just suit your requirements. There are several reasonably priced on eBay at present.
  
 Another tube that may suit is an RCA 6F8G. That also requires the same socket saver but a different adapter.
  
 It's all a bit hit and miss, unfortunately, as similar tube types can vary and we hear things differently.


----------



## Steakface

skarecrow77 said:


> Is your Philips 7DJ8 made in Herleen or an Ei?
> 
> I've got a '57 Herleen (miniwatt) and a '74 Ei (philips). The midrange on the Ei is a bit pronounced (which I like on most cans. it's a bit much on some tunes on my NAD HP50s, but perfect on my Oppo PM3s), however the soundstage is unlike anything I've heard so far. It's nuts. I liked it more on my wife's 400i's than the Herleen (which is weird because I liked the Herleen better with my HD-650s and my wife's DT-880s).


 
  
 I'm not entirely sure, but I remember thinking that the midrange was a little forward when I was first listening to it.  The tube I have has no date or location markings, just "Philips" and "PCC88" and looks exactly like this one.  It does have a nice soundstage but the RCA 6CG7 Clear Top still beats it in that field.  If it helps, I picked it up from Upscale Audio last month.
  

  
  


howie13 said:


> Tough question to answer.
> 
> You could try Octals, which require a Noval 9 pin socket saver and 6SN7 to ECC88 adapter.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I just went back and read about those, they seem to be a good bet.  I'm not sure if I'm ready to go big but if that's what it takes then so be it.  I actually have an EH 6922 on the way, figure I'd pick one up since they are cheap and give it a shot - they get plenty of praise by people here.  I see many people also like the Gold Lion 6922 including one guy who says it's amazing with his HE-400i.  I don't know what his personal sonic preferences are but he makes a good point about the need to tame the treble on the 400i's.
  
 There are so many terms used to describe the sound qualities of tubes and I've been thinking about how to further define what I'm looking for.  The EH 6CG7 seems laid back, but it also has a good amount of treble, so I'm thinking that it's just a very clear and clean tube which makes it easy on the ears.  The same goes for the RCA black plates, but to a lesser extent with the benefit of a slight sound stage boost.  Perhaps a good clean and clear tube is what I'm looking for.


----------



## Skarecrow77

steakface said:


> I'm not entirely sure, but I remember thinking that the midrange was a little forward when I was first listening to it.  The tube I have has no date or location markings, just "Philips" and "PCC88" and looks exactly like this one.  It does have a nice soundstage but the RCA 6CG7 Clear Top still beats it in that field.  If it helps, I picked it up from Upscale Audio last month.


 
   
It's almost certainly an Ei. All the Upscale Audio PCC88 Philips are Ei made, it says so in the description. Yours looks just like mine. The date/manufacture code should be on the reverse side of the tube, but likely it's not particularly legible. I think the ink/dye they used deteriorated over time. Mine I have to turn in the light "just so" to be able to read it.


----------



## HOWIE13

steakface said:


> I'm not entirely sure, but I remember thinking that the midrange was a little forward when I was first listening to it.  The tube I have has no date or location markings, just "Philips" and "PCC88" and looks exactly like this one.  It does have a nice soundstage but the RCA 6CG7 Clear Top still beats it in that field.  If it helps, I picked it up from Upscale Audio last month.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Moving to Octals is certainly a step in a different direction -but probably the correct one for you if you can't find a suitable 9 pin Noval tube.
 This is the fun of tube rolling and Vali2 is very accommodating, providing your wallet, and in my case the wife, give approval. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Two other possibilities you could consider for 9 pins: ECC804 (6/30L2), and the E80CC, which requires a 12AU7 to ECC88 adapter. Both are very 'musical' and quite warm without compromising on imaging and soundstage. The ECC804 is a little warmer than the E80CC in my set-up.
  
 To my mind these are both 'hidden treasure' and work very well with Vali2. Here's a picture of a Tungsram E80CC in my Vali:


----------



## claud W

faber65 said:


> Interesting "that" socket saver....


 

 Its from Tube Monger and has some anti-vibration qualities. NOT CHEAP. I bought 3 Chinese ones for less than that one.


----------



## starence

I picked up a Vali 2 recently, and have really been enjoying it. I'm wondering what I'm missing though, just using the stock tube. What would be a good all around tube to try? I'm looking for something fairly neutral, for $25 or less.


----------



## dbaker1981

starence said:


> I picked up a Vali 2 recently, and have really been enjoying it. I'm wondering what I'm missing though, just using the stock tube. What would be a good all around tube to try? I'm looking for something fairly neutral, for $25 or less.



I would give the EH6922 a test listen. I enjoy it a lot and it's around that price.


----------



## Faber65

dbaker1981 said:


> starence said:
> 
> 
> > I picked up a Vali 2 recently, and have really been enjoying it. I'm wondering what I'm missing though, just using the stock tube. What would be a good all around tube to try? I'm looking for something fairly neutral, for $25 or less.
> ...




I agree, even if defining as "neutral" a tube sounds like an oxymoron to me. 
Oh, yes: you said "fairly".


----------



## Angular Mo

Does 

Genalex Gold Lion E88CC / 6922

need an adapter for the Vali2?

If it does, what type of adapter?

I am thinking of starting a new addiction and tubes look to be a fun one to start.


----------



## Faber65

All the 6922 have the same pins configuration. 
No adapter is needed. 
Welcome to the club of the tube rolling addiction.


----------



## Faber65

GE JAN5670W, not bad value for money. It seems very detailed and relatively neutral. The sub bass are not convincing, yet but it has been used for less than half an hour and only with one album. Need more listening.


----------



## Faber65

starence said:


> I picked up a Vali 2 recently, and have really been enjoying it. I'm wondering what I'm missing though, just using the stock tube. What would be a good all around tube to try? I'm looking for something fairly neutral, for $25 or less.




GE JAN5670W: $19.90 for FIVE!!!! On Amazon. 
It is worth a trial.


----------



## Faber65

starence said:


> I picked up a Vali 2 recently, and have really been enjoying it. I'm wondering what I'm missing though, just using the stock tube. What would be a good all around tube to try? I'm looking for something fairly neutral, for $25 or less.




BEWARE: While the 9-pin design is used, the electrical pin outs between the two tubes us different. As such, the GE5670 is not a straight ‘drop-in’ substitute for the 6922. You need to buy an adapter (see the picture in my above post)

You can also find some opinions here:

http://www.head-fi.org/attachments/1746


----------



## 1ofamillion

So I recently purchased the Vali 2/Modi MB, and I am really enjoying the combo with my HE-500 so far! I am currently rocking a Gold Lion E88CC, and it has a really nice sound. Does anyone have any recommendations on a tube that could give it a little warmer sound? Overall, it's a great combo, but sometimes it can get just a tad too bright for my ears. Plus, I am a sucker for bass extension a sub bass from time to time haha.
  
 I feel like I have oddly sensitive ears.. I never go past 9 o'clock on high gain, and highs in general can get a little overbearing to me. I would have gone full tube, but the vali 2 actually fit in my budget.


----------



## Faber65

1ofamillion said:


> So I recently purchased the Vali 2/Modi MB, and I am really enjoying the combo with my HE-500 so far! I am currently rocking a Gold Lion E88CC, and it has a really nice sound. Does anyone have any recommendations on a tube that could give it a little warmer sound? Overall, it's a great combo, but sometimes it can get just a tad too bright for my ears. Plus, I am a sucker for bass extension a sub bass from time to time haha.
> 
> I feel like I have oddly sensitive ears.. I never go past 9 o'clock on high gain, and highs in general can get a little overbearing to me. I would have gone full tube, but the vali 2 actually fit in my budget.




It depends on your budget for the tube. 
Did you try the EH?

I also suggest to take a look here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/761078/6922-tube-review-17-top-6922-6n23p-e88cc-cca-7308-e188cc-tubes


----------



## 1ofamillion

faber65 said:


> It depends on your budget for the tube.
> Did you try the EH?
> 
> I also suggest to take a look here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/761078/6922-tube-review-17-top-6922-6n23p-e88cc-cca-7308-e188cc-tubes


 
  
 I'll take a look into this, thank you for the information! I guess I should have looked a little more.
  
 I don't know if anyone can help, but I was looking into the Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB. I know someone posted earlier about a Tung-Sol 6SN7, but does anyone have any experience with the Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB? It seems like a good price, but I don't know how it compares to a more expensive model like the Tung-Sol 6SU7WGT.


----------



## 1ofamillion

Well, I decided to go with the Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB just for the heck of it. The tube itself was only 25, and I'd end up getting adapters eventually anyways. Time for rolling! I'm actually pretty curious to see what kind of changes will happen to the sound.


----------



## Skarecrow77

Somewhat on topic, I got a Mimby yesterday under the tree, and after ~36 hours online, it sounds REALLY good with the Vali2 and my Philips PCC88 (the little tube that could). I can concur that this is a great combo.
  
 As one might expect, the Mimby and Vali2 work very very well together.
  
 This PCC88 surprises me at every turn. It always exceeds my expectations. I've got more expensive stuff and I always seem to go back to this tube.


----------



## 1ofamillion

I have a general beginner question regarding tube adapters. I purchased a garage1217 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapter, and a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tube. I hooked everything up, made sure everything was in securely, and the tube does not seem to work. It doesn't warm up, nor does it light up at all. Would anyone know how to determine whether this is an issue with the adapter or the tube itself? I am very new to the tube scene, and I thought I'd ask here see if anyone would know where the problem could be (other than me being uninformed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





). There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the connectors on either part.


----------



## r2muchstuff

1ofamillion said:


> I have a general beginner question regarding tube adapters. I purchased a garage1217 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapter, and a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tube. I hooked everything up, made sure everything was in securely, and the tube does not seem to work. It doesn't warm up, nor does it light up at all. Would anyone know how to determine whether this is an issue with the adapter or the tube itself? I am very new to the tube scene, and I thought I'd ask here see if anyone would know where the problem could be (other than me being uninformed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Wrong adapter. 
 Need 6SN7 to 6922/6BZ7.
  
 r2


----------



## 1ofamillion

Quote:


r2muchstuff said:


> Wrong adapter.
> Need 6SN7 to 6922/6BZ7.
> 
> r2



  
 .........I feel incredibly stupid. That makes sense though haha. Well, it's always good to have adapters, I'll look into it.


----------



## tafens

Hi,

This thread sure has been an interesting read! I'm getting a Vali2 and ModiMB and have looked here to get an idea of what tube I should get for best listening experience  I have an HD600 and love it with my current setup (Modi2U and Magni2U). Now that multibit is within reach I want to upgrade The Modi and I'm also very curious about the tube sound, so I'm looking towards the Vali2 to accompany (or replace?) the Magni.

What would be the best tube for listening with the HD600? I love a good bass punch, and a wide and airy soundstage.

Of what I've read the E188CC/CCa/7308 is what I'm looking for (preferably by Siemens). Second/cheaper choice but not as good would be any E88CC tube. Is this a correct assumption?

What other nice (and perhaps not quite as expensive) tubes with these characteristics are out there, and where to get them (what sellers would you recommend)?

Thanks!


----------



## Steakface

I ended up "settling" on an Amperex Orange Globe 6DJ8 for my HE-400i (Modi MB > Vali 2 > HE-400i).  The treble is present and not over emphasized while being amazingly clear and grainless.  The midrange is slighty warm with a nice sweetness to it (hard to describe).  Bass is well extended without being overpowering or bloated.  Overall, the sound is very clean, fatigue free, and largely transparent with a soundstage wide enough to keep me happy.  It should be noted that the tube sounds its best after about at least 45 minutes of warm up as the highs even out after that time.
  
 If I were to choose a 2nd place, I'd pick the EH 6922.  For such a cheap tube it's a very solid choice.  I didn't find it bright, in fact I thought it was a tad warm in the bass, but it does smooth over the mids a bit for a very pleasant listening experience.


----------



## lifeson

First post on here.
 I just want to share some findings on some tubes. I'm not really an audiophile so sorry if some terms are not the usual audiophile terms. I'm no expert but have half decent ears.
  
 Vali 2 with Modi 2 into HD600
 ..was using an SMSL Amp/DAC before, seemed ok but a bit bright and clinical sometimes.
 Stock tube seemed alright to me (6zb7) and the Vali 2 with that was a lot better than the SMSL but I got hold of a few more tubes.
 My main aim was to get a warm sound with decent bass. Separation and detail weren't as high on my list of priorities. 
 Was looking for a sound closer to what I get out of my speakers and turntable.
  
  
*Summary :-*
  
 - *Amperex 6DJ8/ECC88 Bugle Boy NOS*
 After some burn in sounded amazing with airy, acoustic sort of stuff, female vocals, classical. Lots of presence. Wide soundstage and good detail. Quite 'forward' sounding and 'in your face' in an addictive sort of way. Not so good with bright recordings. Black metal sounded painful. Hard rock overdriven guitars sounded a little artificial. Bass too lean and dry for me (maybe more accurate therefore ?).
 The most 'digital' sounding of the three.
  
 - *Phillips PCC88 NOS*
 Sounded dull at first but then opened up. Started smiling a lot with this one probably because of the lovely mids. Soundstage seemed wide but not very tall (is tall the right word ?). Made me more aware I'm listening on headphones. Organic middley sort of sound with overdriven guitars which I loved. Also very good with acoustic and classical and gave slightly warm glow to things. Good deep bass but not overpowering. Less presence than the Bugle Boy and easier to listen to for long periods on a mix of styles.
  
 - *Mullard E88CC/01 CV2493 NOS* 
 Had high hopes but was disappointed at first. The PCC88 woke up far earlier. After a while though it just got better and better (or did my brain adapt..who knows). Seemed less obvious detail than the other two but I think it's the really deep bass (not boomy just solid and thunky as all hell).
 Decent soundstage - cozy, rounded (does that even make sense ?)
 Very different to Bugle Boy for acoustic stuff, less airy and delicate but more dark and lush. Female vocals more earthy and not so forward sounding. The only tube that sounded good with black and thrash metal. Overdriven guitar tones very natural and convincing (had that dirty edge of realism, vintage tones amazing, the BB sounds like cardboard cutout of an electric guitar in comparison). Slightly reverby maybe ? The closest of all three to listening to speakers in a room. 
  
*PCC88 was the sweet spot for me* (most versatile) but the Mullard was amazing for anything that needed some ooomph and vintage overdriven guitar tones sounded totally convincing through it.
  
  
*Track by track comparisons:-*
  
 Marillion - Cinderella Search (80's prog)  (original 12' mix)
 This is inherently flat and anemic and horrible. 
 Sounded tinny with 6zb7. Bugle Boy more detail but still quite shrill. PCC88 took the edge off and rounded it out. Mullard sounded best of the lot as more bass came in and hard edges came off.
  
 Agnes Obel - The Curse (folk/classical)
 This track would probably still sound beautiful through a smartphone speaker.
 Bugle Boy very forward, impressive and addicting with vocal presence. Mullard sounded less impactful, nice but a bit too lush. PCC88 nailed it , played it 4 times in a row - made me want to have Agnes's babies. 
  
 Beck - Cellphone's Dead (alt rock)
 Played this to test the plummy bass synth sound and tinkly piano. All 3 sounded pretty good. BB emphasised tinkly bits too much. Mullard owned it, had the perfect balance. Bass synth thump blew me way and the tinkly bits were all there but just adding flavour. It all sounded so...erm...big and thumpy.
  
 Phantogram - You Don't Get Me High Any More (electronica/electro-rock)
 In your face track, BB's in your faceness gave it nearly face smashing levels of in your faceness. Mullard seemed to sap the energy, sounded nice but too polite. PCC88 nailed it again, just the right balance of presence and oomph.
  
 Ulver - Hymne I (black metal)
 Raw and underproduced, bright and waspy with little bass. Fun through speakers. I could never listen to this through headphones until I tried Vali 2 with Mullard. Probably the character of the tube affecting it to make it listenable. Unlistenable at decent volume with the other 2 tubes.
  
 Queen - Son and Daughter (hard rock)
 This version is the demo track on 'On The Beeb'. May's guitar tone is brutal and dirty. BB too forward for this, hurt ears at decent volume. PCC88 a lot better but Mullard sounded just like when I play this at 11 through speakers. Really captured the dirty, clanky overdriven tones and Taylor's animal drumming shook the earth.
  
 Genesis - Dancing with the Moonlit Knight (prog)
 BB airy and delicate in pastoral bits but didn't translate Hacket's overdriven guitar very well, too forward and honky. Mullard lush, more pastoral than a field full of sheep and an oak tree in spring with the first daffodils coming up. PCC88 a nice compromise between both of them.
  
 Monteverdi - Vespers (classical)
 BB emphasised the singing and it sounded clear and separated but a bit soulless. PCC88 was the best, just the right blend of sonority and energy, made me feel like I was listening in a church in the 17th century, I'd probably want to pray listening through this tube if I was religious. Mullard sapped a bit of energy from it (not energetic music but needs a bit of drama).
  
 Amon Duul II - Archangel Thunderbird (krautrock)
 BB robbed it of impact a bit, female vocal too forward. PCC88 was a nice balance but not enough bass. Mullard captured the loose flappy bass the best and it all seemed to gel better.


----------



## Hofy

I just got my new EH6922 from tubedepot today. I know it isnt broke in yet but should it have so much hum?


----------



## Faber65

hofy said:


> I just got my new EH6922 from tubedepot today. I know it isnt broke in yet but should it have so much hum?




Mine is very silent on the Vali2


----------



## HOWIE13

hofy said:


> I just got my new EH6922 from tubedepot today. I know it isnt broke in yet but should it have so much hum?


 
  
 Some of my tubes hum quietly in the background on Vali's high gain setting with certain cans. I never heard hum with any tube or can on low gain.
 Make sure the pins are clean and straight, making good contact in the socket and if it's still humming, I would ask for an exchange of tube.


----------



## Hofy

howie13 said:


> Some of my tubes hum quietly in the background on Vali's high gain setting with certain cans. I never heard hum with any tube or can on low gain.
> Make sure the pins are clean and straight, making good contact in the socket and if it's still humming, I would ask for an exchange of tube.


 
 No hum in low gain but I use high gain.  It is also only in the right channel and it does not hum quietly.  It will be going back as I paid the extra $2 for balanced triodes AND $4 for low noise and microphonics.  The 6BZ7 Canada that came with my amp is dead silent in both high and low gain.
  
 Guess I will start a RMA today.


----------



## HOWIE13

hofy said:


> No hum in low gain but I use high gain.  It is also only in the right channel and it does not hum quietly.  It will be going back as I paid the extra $2 for balanced triodes AND $4 for low noise and microphonics.  The 6BZ7 Canada that came with my amp is dead silent in both high and low gain.
> 
> Guess I will start a RMA today.


 
 Yes that tube definitely sounds faulty to me.


----------



## Faber65

OMG!!! It works, and it sounds good.


----------



## volly

faber65 said:


> OMG!!! It works, and it sounds good.


 
*Shuguang Treasure Series CV181-Z tube?!  *
  
 Probably the best I've heard in my small stash!!!


----------



## Faber65

volly said:


> faber65 said:
> 
> 
> > OMG!!! It works, and it sounds good.
> ...




Exactly. 
I thought that the little Vali could not bear the current needed to make that beast of tube working. 
Actually I was totally wrong. 
Probably the Shanguang is an overkiller, and it doesn't sound as good as it was in an appropriate amp, but living in China I could find it at a cheaper price directly from the manufacturer. 
No logistic costs, no importation duties nor the reseller markup. 
Then I bought a socket saver and an adapter from a local lab (porcelain sockets and aluminum barrels for about 12 bucks altogether ) and I ordered the tube. 
I have to say that I am super happy.

But I also have to say thanks to you as I decided because I saw your post. 
I owe you a beer.
Let me know if you pass to Shanghai.


----------



## volly

faber65 said:


> Exactly.
> I thought that the little Vali could not bear the current needed to make that beast of tube working.
> Actually I was totally wrong.
> Probably the Shanguang is an overkiller, and it doesn't sound as good as it was in an appropriate amp, but living in China I could find it at a cheaper price directly from the manufacturer.
> ...


 
 Mate, I love the look of your adapter, I just got a plain black adapter. I was fortunate to get the Shunguang for $50 Aus including shipping, it was a damn good deal at the time as these tubes go for twice the price.
  
 The Shunguang is quite simply the pinnacle for me, I find it is simply flawless. It is effortlessly airy and detailed, superb bass, a mid range that is pristine and so smooth and engaging, the high's are perfect and never harsh. I kept it to myself deliberately to give this tube as long as I could before I informed others and I'm glad other's like yourself have given it a try. 
  
 I will suggest to also give the Russian 6SN7GT/6H8C a try, I'll say that I'm pretty much done with tube rolling thanks to these two tubes, the 6SN7GT/6H8C isn't as quiet as the Shunguang but it's damn good tube to swap with if you decide to give the Shunguang a break! 
  
They say the Shunguang needs about 100 hours to break-in, I've probably clocked that many hours by now and can state without a shadow of a doubt that it's simply a first class tube! Given that I've haven't many in my tube stash but it simply ticks all my boxes. It's also easily the prettiest tube I have as it is just beautifully produced and package!
  
I actually had the Vali 2 hooked up to my Home Theatre system for a while and the Vali 2 was such a pleasure to use with that setup, so much so I was inspired to add a tube preamp to my HT setup and ordered a cheap tube preamp from China which used 2x 6j1 tubes, I had it running for a few days before the unit actually died! (disappointed - 11/10) but I was comparing the sound between that and the Vali 2, needless to say Vali 2 with the shunguang tube sounded far far better in every possible situation (movies/music/normal television). 
  
 I digress. 
  
 Congrats on your tube mate, enjoy the music!


----------



## YungFrieza

Can you use a 6SK7 tube with this?


----------



## KoshNaranek

yungfrieza said:


> Can you use a 6SK7 tube with this?




Short Answer: No


Long Answer: Vali2 requires a dual Triode tube. The 6sk7 is a single pentode. Theoretically, you could use two of them, but I am certain that it would sound terrible.


PS If you used two, you would also need another heater power supply.


----------



## YungFrieza

koshnaranek said:


> Short Answer: No
> 
> 
> Long Answer: Vali2 requires a dual Triode tube. The 6sk7 is a single pentode. Theoretically, you could use two of them, but I am certain that it would sound terrible.
> ...




Thanks!


----------



## Hofy

I woke this guy up from his nearly 55 year slumber.  Even straight out of the box it is blowing away the Canada 6BZ7.
  
 Tung-Sol 6BK7B


----------



## Niggi183

What are good tubes for a hd 650?


----------



## RickB

niggi183 said:


> What are good tubes for a hd 650?


 
 Current production: 6CG7 EH
  
 NOS: Sylvania 6DJ8 "Green Hornet".
  
 Those are my preferences.


----------



## DomieMic65

I have my Vali2 a few days now and I like it very very much ... would the EH 6922 Gold Pin be the obvious choice for my HD600 and Sines?
 I like the stock tube quite a lot but I wan to explore what this little think can do!
 Thnx...


----------



## Faber65

domiemic65 said:


> I have my Vali2 a few days now and I like it very very much ... would the EH 6922 Gold Pin be the obvious choice for my HD600 and Sines?
> I like the stock tube quite a lot but I wan to explore what this little think can do!
> Thnx...




IMHO, starting the exploration with the EH6922 gold pins, it's a wise and safe choice.


----------



## DomieMic65

faber65 said:


> IMHO, starting the exploration with the EH6922 gold pins, it's a wise and safe choice.


 
 Yes from the reading I' ve done so far this seems to be the case...
  
 Thnx


----------



## DeeKay10

Call me newbie, but just ordered an Electro-Harmonix 6CG7 tube after reading it's nice and warm, and then it hit me it says "pre-amplifier tube".
Doesn't matter whether it's for an amp or a pre-amp, right? This is the model: https://www.tubedepot.com/products/electro-harmonix-6cg7-6fq7-eh-preamp-vacuum-tube


----------



## RickB

deekay10 said:


> Call me newbie, but just ordered an Electro-Harmonix 6CG7 tube after reading it's nice and warm, and then it hit me it says "pre-amplifier tube".
> Doesn't matter whether it's for an amp or a pre-amp, right? This is the model: https://www.tubedepot.com/products/electro-harmonix-6cg7-6fq7-eh-preamp-vacuum-tube


 
 That's no problem. That tube works great in the Vali 2 (my personal experience).


----------



## DeeKay10

Phew. Great. Super thanks!


----------



## tafens

deekay10 said:


> Call me newbie, but just ordered an Electro-Harmonix [COLOR=333333]6CG7 tube after reading it's nice and warm, and then it hit me it says "pre-amplifier tube".[/COLOR]
> [COLOR=333333]Doesn't matter whether it's for an amp or a pre-amp, right? This is the model: [/COLOR]https://www.tubedepot.com/products/electro-harmonix-6cg7-6fq7-eh-preamp-vacuum-tube




The tubes that goes in the Vali2 are often found under the category "preamp tubes" (which makes sense, as the Vali2 has preamp out connectors - to be connected to a power amp or powered speakers - and cannot drive speakers directly).


----------



## Hofy

Everything that has been said about the 6SN7 in the Vali2 is true.  My adapter came in yesterday.  Dropped in one of Raytheon 6SN7GTB I have been storing for years.


----------



## volly

hofy said:


> Everything that has been said about the 6SN7 in the Vali2 is true.  My adapter came in yesterday.  Dropped in one of Raytheon 6SN7GTB I have been storing for years.



Ohhh...I love that volume knob and I agree 6ns7 tubes are on another level!


----------



## Hofy

volly said:


> Ohhh...I love that volume knob and I agree 6ns7 tubes are on another level!


 
  
 If anyone is interested I got the knob off ebay from gd-parts  Just search for 1PC 20*15mm Silver Machined Solid Aluminum Knob Guitar Amp Cabinet Effect Pedal.  Machined solid aluminum for $8.


----------



## winders

I acquired a tube that is is described as follows:
  
 NOS Siemens Halske CCa (6922) (71-30) with grey plates made in the Siemens Munich Germany factory in the 60's. Here are two photos:
  

  

  
  
 Is this one of the desirable Siemens Halske CCa tubes?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## kolkoo

winders said:


> I acquired a tube that is is described as follows:
> 
> NOS Siemens Halske CCa (6922) (71-30) with grey plates made in the Siemens Munich Germany factory in the 60's. Here are two photos:
> 
> ...


 
 Yep 100% legit Siemens CCa.
 P.S. You may try asking 6DJ8/6922/7308/7DJ8 (ECC88/PCC88/E88CC/E188CC) questions on the Lyr 2 tube rolling thread if you don't get answers here


----------



## Steakface

Looks legit to me.  For future reference, I found the "Danger Will Robinson!" section of Joe's Tube Lore to be very helpful when identifying Siemens and Amperex tubes.  I went over the points that applied to Siemens and aside from the etched numbers (that aren't shown in the images), everything checks out.
  
 http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#6DJ8


----------



## winders

steakface said:


> Looks legit to me.  For future reference, I found the "Danger Will Robinson!" section of Joe's Tube Lore to be very helpful when identifying Siemens and Amperex tubes.  I went over the points that applied to Siemens and aside from the etched numbers (that aren't shown in the images), everything checks out.
> 
> http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#6DJ8


 

 That link is great. Thank you very much!!


----------



## Steakface

winders said:


> That link is great. Thank you very much!!


 
 No problem!  The entire 6DJ8 section taught me a lot about the different vintage tubes and what to expect out of them.  Just need to remember that the guy really likes his Amperexes and you gotta take that into consideration when reading his thoughts on other brands.  I wish he would have included more Mullards and Telefunkens in the article, I haven't found a great resource for them just yet.
  
 I ended up getting an Amperex 6DJ8 Orange Globe based on his thoughts and I really like it in the Vali 2.  Its' tone is cleaner than all of my new production and NOS tubes and has a certain sweetness to it.


----------



## winders

steakface said:


> No problem!  The entire 6DJ8 section taught me a lot about the different vintage tubes and what to expect out of them.  Just need to remember that the guy really likes his Amperexes and you gotta take that into consideration when reading his thoughts on other brands.  I wish he would have included more Mullards and Telefunkens in the article, I haven't found a great resource for them just yet.


 

 Thanks. I understand that people have their own personal bias as to what sounds best to them. I am going to have to go through the process myself to see what tubes sound best to me with my speakers (Swan MK200MKIII) and what sound best to me with my headphones (Sennheiser HD 650). I am really hoping that the same tube does it for me with both! Of course, I know that it gets even more complicated in that I may like one tube for classical and another for classic rock and another for Jazz. Again, I hope I am lucky and it is all the same tube.
  
 I am assembling a strong cast of 8 tubes to try and see how it all shakes out. I am looking forward to the process. It should be long and enjoyable! I do need to figure out the test methodology. I am just glad I have the Vali 2 as buying 2 tube matched sets would have been a lot harder and much more expensive!!


----------



## winders

This topic is basically dead compared to the "Schiit Lyr Tube Rollers" thread. Should I just post stuff there about tube rolling 6DJ8 style tubes?


----------



## DomieMic65

Can't wait to get back home to start rolling!


----------



## Faber65

domiemic65 said:


> Can't wait to get back home to start rolling!




That's a very good start, and if I give you a piece of advice, I would rather running-in the Vali with the original tubes and get used to those first. 
In my opinion they are not so bad.


----------



## DomieMic65

faber65 said:


> That's a very good start, and if I give you a piece of advice, I would rather running-in the Vali with the original tubes and get used to those first.
> In my opinion they are not so bad.


 
 thank you very much
  
 I used the Vali for about 2 weeks every day with the stock tube! Yes I agree that it is not bad! 
 But the enemy of the good is the best..
 Now I chose randomly and now I am using the 6CG7 .. I like what I am hearing but I will wait some time for it to settle down before I make any comparisons etc!


----------



## Faber65

domiemic65 said:


> faber65 said:
> 
> 
> > That's a very good start, and if I give you a piece of advice, I would rather running-in the Vali with the original tubes and get used to those first.
> ...




I have the same tubes, and I think that the value for money is good.
The point is that the listening is very subjective and it is difficult to define what is good and what is bad, unless the difference is abissal.
I have so many tubes now that for me it is difficult to find a real bad one. All of those have a match depending on the original recording and the type of headphones that I use.
But for the daily usage the EH are great.


----------



## DeeKay10

Got an Electro-Harmonix 6CG7 tube today. Oh it's warm-sounding alright, wish I had it from the beginning; I got used to the Hifiman HE400i's off-beat highs, but I grew over it so now it's kinda missing.
 Still, won't have a concensus after a few weeks with it.
 All this tube rolling is pretty cool, it's like an analogue equalizer. 
  

  
 By the way, is it possible for the Vali 2 not to have enough power to run a tube? The cathode (?) on this one glows less than the 6BZ7. Not that I'm concerned about cosmetics, but I read stuff on Schiit's website on 60v and 100v and 200v, etc.


----------



## kolkoo

deekay10 said:


> By the way, is it possible for the Vali 2 not to have enough power to run a tube? The cathode (?) on this one glows less than the 6BZ7. Not that I'm concerned about cosmetics, but I read stuff on Schiit's website on 60v and 100v and 200v, etc.


 
 The Vali 2 is using 60V to drive its tubes. Which for most 6922/E88CC is below the operating voltage but they will still perform pretty great (and possibly live longer in the Vali2).
 However tube glow may be related to how strong a tube is, or just completely different in each tube.


----------



## Steakface

What kolkoo said.  Also, 6CG7 tubes will pull more heater current from the amp than 6BZ7, 6922, 6DJ8 etc. so they will run hotter.  It's in my experience that glow can be random - based on inconsistencies in the manufacturing process.  These inconsistencies may or may not affect sound quality as they can show up in tubes with matched sections.


----------



## KoshNaranek

steakface said:


> What kolkoo said.  Also, 6CG7 tubes will pull more heater current from the amp than 6BZ7, 6299, 6DJ8 etc. so they will run hotter.  It's in my experience that glow can be random - based on inconsistencies in the manufacturing process.  These inconsistencies may or may not affect sound quality as they can show up in tubes with matched sections.




The 60V you refer to is the plate voltage. The heater is 6V. The 6cg7 should last more than 10000 hours at 60V plate voltage unless the heater fails. Grid degradation is a function of plate voltage.


----------



## Steakface

koshnaranek said:


> The 60V you refer to is the plate voltage. The heater is 6V. The 6cg7 should last more than 10000 hours at 60V plate voltage unless the heater fails. Grid degradation is a function of plate voltage.


 
  
 Heater voltage on the 6CG7 is actually 6.3 volts.  Heater current, which is different and is measured in amperes, is roughly 0.6 (or 600 milliamps).  This is the maximum amperage the Vali 2 can support.
  
 Edit: Just re-read your comment, looks like you meant to quote kolkoo.


----------



## DeeKay10

Fair enough, thanks. The 6CG7 does run warmer.
 I actually don't mind about tube life, these are cheap enough to refresh once a few years.


----------



## KoshNaranek

steakface said:


> Heater voltage on the 6CG7 is actually 6.3 volts.  Heater current, which is different and is measured in amperes, is roughly 0.6 (or 600 milliamps).  This is the maximum amperage the Vali 2 can support.
> 
> Edit: Just re-read your comment, looks like you meant to quote kolkoo.




I did. Sorry


----------



## HOWIE13

My understanding is that the visible glow in the tube is entirely due to the heater wire getting hot and how much of this glow you can see depends on the position of the heater wire in the tube, thickness and colour of the glass etc, ie. the physical construction of the tube, and has nothing to do with the sonic gain the tube is creating. All assuming, of course, that the amp is delivering its intended 6.3V to the heater.


----------



## Hofy

I hope you have better luck with your 6922 Gold EH than I did.  I am on my second one and both have a noticeable hum in high gain.  It is still there in low but you really have to listen for it.  I have some RCA 6BZ7 (1964 NOS) and Tung-Sol 6BK7B (1962 NOS) and Raytheon 6SN7 (1960's used) along with the stock Canada 6BZ7.  All of them are dead silent in high or low gain.
  
 Quote:


domiemic65 said:


> Can't wait to get back home to start rolling!


----------



## DomieMic65

And the winner is...





By far! I didn't have any hum or other noise problems with the 6922 but for me the 6CG7 sounds better!
Very neutral and detailed without loosing in warmth!
Yes it runs hotter too as mentioned above.


----------



## winders

DomieMic65,
  
 Have you tried a quality tube from the 60's?


----------



## Faber65

domiemic65 said:


> And the winner is...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Glad you like it. Enjoy the music


----------



## DomieMic65

winders said:


> DomieMic65,
> 
> Have you tried a quality tube from the 60's?



Of course not... 
I am as new to the "rolling" as my Vali!


----------



## winders

domiemic65 said:


> Of course not...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I've had mine 10 days now. I bought a bunch of tubes...some purchased from the U.S., where I am from, and some from Europe. They have finally started to arrive.
  
 I'll try to remember to post my impressions here. Most of the tube rolling discussion for this tube style happen in the "Schiit Lyr Tube Rollers" thread.


----------



## DomieMic65

For now I am done... Time for music!
After some (months) time may be I will try something else!

Sent from my Nexus 5X


----------



## OSNPA

This thread has been enormously helpful in learning this topic, so thank you everyone!
 And thanks to @RickB in particular for steering me in this direction to begin with.
  
 I just pulled the trigger on the Vali 2 and ordered a Tesla E88CC Gold Pin NOS:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-E88CC-6922-TESLA-NOS-MIL-TUBE-VALVULA-ROHRE-GOLD-PIN-CODE-32-/182428507684?


----------



## TK16

osnpa said:


> This thread has been enormously helpful in learning this topic, so thank you everyone!
> And thanks to @RickB in particular for steering me in this direction to begin with.
> 
> I just pulled the trigger on the Vali 2 and ordered a Tesla E88CC Gold Pin NOS:
> ...


 
 Do you have that HD700 in your avatar? Those Tesla`s are hot tubes and with that can it might give you a headache. The Tesla`s gave me a headache with HE-560`s so I sold the tubes.


----------



## OSNPA

No, I never set the avatar, it was defaulted to that, I'll be using Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro 250 ohm with them for the most part.


----------



## TK16

osnpa said:


> No, I never set the avatar, it was defaulted to that, I'll be using Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro 250 ohm with them for the most part.


 
 Ah looked like the HD700 on my phone.


----------



## stasick

Hello,
  
 I am new to tube rolling.  I just acquired Vali 2 and loving it!  However, I can't help but notice that some individuals utilize adapters that make use of two tubes.  Does it make a difference to use two 6922 type tubes in Vali 2?  If so, where can I get such an adapter?


----------



## winders

I recently bought this really nice rare NOS Telefunken CCa E88CC (Made in Ulm, Germany in late 1960) tube listed here:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/112274223423
  
 The triodes match well and it is new old stock. I have not even installed
  
 I have decided to go a different direction in tubes so this tube needs to go. I want $162 plus shipping for it. PM me for more details or if you are interested in buying it.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## DeeKay10

Alright, I think I'm comfortable enough to give the Electro-Harmonics 6CG7 judgement, compared to the stock 6BZ7.
 All in all, this is a tube that gives the talked-about impression of "what tube amps are about". If music is a way to convey feelings, then with this tube I feel pretty cosy.
  
 I'd written my life story on the Vali 2, but then actually read it and decided to keep this short, so:
 Choose the EH 6CG7 for a sound: Warmer, smoother, more detailed on the lower end and overall *more pleasant*.
 Stick with the 6BZ7 for: A wider soundstage, balanced sound with detailed highs and overall realism.
  
 Like everything in life, each has its ups and downs. I'd love to find the tube incorporating both of these two's qualities into a single unit, but there's a whole bunch to choose from and the bastards cost money, some a lot.
 I might come back to this tube swapping business when I get bored, but for now, these are my impressions.
 Enjoy the bloody music.


----------



## tafens

Is there any difference between NOS 1960/70s Voskhod 6N1P tubes (with the rocket logo and also XI-7 and CCCP printed on them) compared to the later Svetlana 6N1P-EV variant? Sonic or otherwise?

edit: tube description


----------



## Steakface

tafens said:


> Is there any difference between NOS 1960/70s Voskhod 6N1P tubes (with the rocket logo and also XI-7 and CCCP printed on them) compared to the later Svetlana 6N1P-EV variant? Sonic or otherwise?
> 
> edit: tube description


 
  
 I'm unsure how the NOS Russian tubes compare to today's new production Russian tubes, but I know that Voshkod produced some nice sounding tubes in the 70's.  When it comes to the new production 6N1Ps, most are Voshkod re-brands (Sovtek, Svetlana).


----------



## Artemiis

Hi Guys, 

 New to tube amps here, can someone point me in the direction of a good tube to roll in if I want a more warm, bassy, smooth-liquidy, "tubey" sound? I have a Schiit stack already, both in Uber, but I just ordered a Vali 2 as an inexpensive trial to a tube sound. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated! I am totally new to tube amps, let me know where you guys bought yours as well! Any info is appreciated! ♥


----------



## KoshNaranek

artemiis said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> 
> New to tube amps here, can someone point me in the direction of a good tube to roll in if I want a more warm, bassy, smooth-liquidy, "tubey" sound? I have a Schiit stack already, both in Uber, but I just ordered a Vali 2 as an inexpensive trial to a tube sound. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated! I am totally new to tube amps, let me know where you guys bought yours as well! Any info is appreciated! ♥




I would look at Electro Harmonix 6cg7, JJ E88CC Gold Pin and Gold lion. All available from tube depot.


----------



## TK16

artemiis said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> New to tube amps here, can someone point me in the direction of a good tube to roll in if I want a more warm, bassy, smooth-liquidy, "tubey" sound? I have a Schiit stack already, both in Uber, but I just ordered a Vali 2 as an inexpensive trial to a tube sound. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated! I am totally new to tube amps, let me know where you guys bought yours as well! Any info is appreciated! ♥


 
 Mullard ECC88 Blackburns are a very warm tube, usually inexpensive too.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/ECC88-Mullard-Blackburn-B5L4-New-Old-Stock-Electronic-Valve-Tube-1-pc-M17-/391723897466


----------



## Steakface

artemiis said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> New to tube amps here, can someone point me in the direction of a good tube to roll in if I want a more warm, bassy, smooth-liquidy, "tubey" sound? I have a Schiit stack already, both in Uber, but I just ordered a Vali 2 as an inexpensive trial to a tube sound. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated! I am totally new to tube amps, let me know where you guys bought yours as well! Any info is appreciated! ♥


 
  
 I found the new production JJ E88CC to be quite warm and gooey, and it's cheap to boot.  If you want to get into vintage tubes, have a look at Mullards (mentioned above) or, my favorite, a 6DJ8 Amperex Orange Globe.  The globes are easier to come by, and if you find a good deal, you can get two for the price you'd pay for a Mullard.


----------



## DeeKay10

Electro-Harmonix 6CG7 - warm and smooth (and relatively cheap). Don't know what gooey is, this one just sounds more pleasant to me opposed to the neutral stock tube (which I would actually recommend over the 6CG7 on some occasions).
 Don't forget to match the triodes.


----------



## Faber65

deekay10 said:


> Electro-Harmonix 6CG7 - warm and smooth (and relatively cheap). Don't know what gooey is, this one just sounds more pleasant to me opposed to the neutral stock tube (which I would actually recommend over the 6CG7 on some occasions).
> Don't forget to match the triodes.




I agree completely, the EH 6CG7 are a safe choice and, overall a nice all round tube. I like it very much especially for the evening relaxing listening. 
The price is in it's favor too.
Still at low price, I would also consider the EH6922 or the GE5670 NOS with the adapter ( https://tubedepot.com/products?utf8=✓&keywords=5670 ).


----------



## hagenhays

I just picked up a eh6922 from tube depot. Relatively cheap. My first tube roll for my vali.

Definitely takes the harsh digital glare off. I'm running a modi2U to it. Cds and Pandora definitely sound more lush, tube sounding.


----------



## Bacon Bits

Does anyone have a relatively inexpensive tube, $10 ish, for hd800s. Since I plan to get these phones really soon and am wondering if the stock tube is good enough or if I should upgrade.


----------



## Faber65

bacon bits said:


> Does anyone have a relatively inexpensive tube, $10 ish, for hd800s. Since I plan to get these phones really soon and am wondering if the stock tube is good enough or if I should upgrade.




GE5670


----------



## r2muchstuff

faber65 said:


> GE5670


 

 An adapter will be needed for that tube.  It is however, a great recommendation.
  
 JMTC,
 r2


----------



## spsesq

I just bought the Vali 2 based on reviews from this thread, YouTube reviews and emails with Schiit. Nick was helpful and when I explained my current setup and how I wanted the headphones to sound like my speakers, warmth and detailed I bought the Telefunken E88CC / 6922. Yeah, I spent more on the tube than I did for the Vali 2 but I love the sound through my Beyerdynamics Custom Studios. Especially with the bass venting I can fine tune the low end and the highs are crisp and detailed. No distortion in high hats or cymbals. I listen to everything from classical to rock and jazz. My headphones sound like the music through my speakers so it's a great match. My system:
Rogue Audio Cronos Magnum ( KT120 version with rolled Mullard nos 12AU7 tube)
KEF LS50 speakers
Bluesound Vault 
ProJect Debut Carbon Esprit (Ortofon 2M Black)
Vali 2 with rolled Telefunken E88CC / 6922
Beyerdynamics Custom Studio headphones


----------



## Faber65

r2muchstuff said:


> faber65 said:
> 
> 
> > GE5670
> ...




Correct. The picture of the tube and the adapter are in my previous post.


----------



## r2muchstuff

This:
  

  
  
 r2


----------



## spsesq

That is a huge tube!. Please explain what that tube does for the sound of the amplifier as opposed to the Telefunken 6922 I rolled or the stock tube Schiit supplies. Thanks


----------



## r2muchstuff

spsesq said:


> That is a huge tube!. Please explain what that tube does for the sound of the amplifier as opposed to the Telefunken 6922 I rolled or the stock tube Schiit supplies. Thanks


 

 Well there is a socket saver and two adapters under the tube.
  
 Just installed the tube this morning, I will need more time to study/listen.  However, previously I was running a 6SN7GT Russian so it has been a while since I listened to any 6922s or equals in this amp.
  
 JMTC,
 r2
  
 Edit:
  
 After further listening, I find that this tube sounded very good in the Vali 2 however, the SQ was not much different from many of the 6SN7 tubes in the Vali 2.  In fact, with the Grado 325e headphones I still prefer the 1961 6SN7 Russian sound.
  
 So I got curious about the Sylvania 6F8G and adapter in my DarkVoice 336 SE.  I think the 6F8G has found a home, at least for a while   I am driving Beyerdynamic T90 with this amp.
  
 If I had not purchased the used DarkVoice a couple of weeks back, the 6F8G would have stayed in the Vali 2 for a while and the T90s would have stayed with a 6SN7 adapted Lyr 1.
  
 For now the Vali 2 will stay as a 6SN7 amp.
  
 I have a couple more 6F8Gs on order to play with at a later date. I will see what happens then.


----------



## spsesq

r2muchstuff said:


> Well there is a socket saver and two adapters under the tube.
> 
> Just installed the tube this morning, I will need more time to study/listen.  However, previously I was running a 6SN7GT Russian so it has been a while since I listened to any 6922s or equals in this amp.
> 
> ...


----------



## DeeKay10

What.


----------



## Faber65

deekay10 said:


> What.




That huge tube is defective: there is no vacuum inside. 
Send it to me: I can fix it


----------



## r2muchstuff

No not defective, liquid cooled. It puts the "cool" in the Jazz. 

r2


----------



## manlevel220

How does the EH 6922 gold pin compare to the EH 6CG7 in terms of sound? I have an HD650 and am looking for a warm, tubey sound.


----------



## IPA-60-IBU

Currently listening through two 6S51N-V nuvistors.
  
 Nice. Vali2 seems to chew through everything triodish.
  
 For the octal lovers: 1759, incredible power:


----------



## Bacon Bits

Holy crap. Just put in a Philips 7DJ8 and it is dead quiet. Compared to the stock tube which has an annoying buzz on my iems and sr80e this tube has no noise what so ever even on high gain. Initial sound impressions, with just 15 minutes of listening the resolution is definitely better. Now all I have to do is burn in.


----------



## IPA-60-IBU (May 8, 2017)

This mini tube, 6n28b-v is without doubt the best one I've put in Vali2 so far. It is just great. I tried to connect 2 6s31b-r, however one of them was dead on arrival  18 mA/V


----------



## pierpaolo452 (May 21, 2017)

Hi guys, i'm new in the world of tube rolling, i have the vali 2, modi 2 and the fidelio x2, and i want to change the vali's tube, I would like a more open sound, a greater soundstage with more precision and a more airy highs (Yes i know Too many pretensions for a small budget)
Thanks


----------



## theque

DeeKay10 said:


> What.



That looks like a fun project, I would not have chosen that particular bottle though...

Have any details on that project?

-Ray


----------



## JustinDT

Has anyone hooked up a Korg NuTube yet?


----------



## ShizzyGuo

What's the best tube to get if I want to add more bass and soundstage to my HD650? I only have stock tube right now


----------



## winders

I would get a 5670 to 6922 adapter and try a 1940's to 1960's Western Electric 396A/2c51 tube.  This tube would be perfect:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Ele...297981?hash=item2f03bec97d:g:ZLgAAOSwR29ZG30l


----------



## ShizzyGuo

Is there one that doesn't require an adapter?


----------



## winders

What you will find is that the 5670 family of tubes cost a lot less than the 6922 family of tubes. They are electrically compatible but the pinouts are different. The adapter is cheap and allows your try some great inexpensive tubes. The quality of that WE396A for $35 is stunning. You cannot beat it with a 6922 tube for the price.


----------



## winders

These are very nice sounding tubes too at $36 for a pair:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-OF-5670WA-GE-5-STAR-3-MICA-VACUUM-TUBES-396A-2C51-/382101633392


----------



## ShizzyGuo (Jun 17, 2017)

Anyone have experience with RCA 6CG7?


----------



## chef8489 (Jun 23, 2017)

So would you all recommend starting with the stock tube or switch it out from the get go? Headphones will be starting off with are the Akg k553 pro and Sennheiser hd 439. Everything else I have are custom Iems.


----------



## chef8489

Can anyone compare the eh6922 gold to the gold lion?


----------



## AviP

chef8489 said:


> Can anyone compare the eh6922 gold to the gold lion?


I'm not good at putting these kinds of things into words, but I can try.
I find the EH to be darker.
I find the gold lion to be more airy and sparkly.
Personally, I prefer the gold lion most of the time.
Disclosure: I haven't used my Vali 2 too much in the last few months.


----------



## chef8489

Just ordered the Gold Lion to arrive when the Vali 2 does but think I need the eh also. Will try to find one at a good price.


----------



## JediMa70

I've used for a couple of months an Electro Harmonix 6922 / E88CC Gold pin and i agree is smooth and nice.. but doesnt give a nice Tubey sound, any good idea for a better tube to roll and have the vali 2 more tubey?


----------



## RickB (Jun 29, 2017)

JediMa70 said:


> I've used for a couple of months an Electro Harmonix 6922 / E88CC Gold pin and i agree is smooth and nice.. but doesnt give a nice Tubey sound, any good idea for a better tube to roll and have the vali 2 more tubey?



The EH 6CG7 is somewhat more tubey, but I don't think you're going to get a very tubey sound out of the Vali 2.

Note: I haven't tried any of the tubes that require an adapter.


----------



## KoshNaranek

JediMa70 said:


> I've used for a couple of months an Electro Harmonix 6922 / E88CC Gold pin and i agree is smooth and nice.. but doesnt give a nice Tubey sound, any good idea for a better tube to roll and have the vali 2 more tubey?




I would give the EH 6cg7 a try.


----------



## chef8489

KoshNaranek said:


> I would give the EH 6cg7 a try.


Gold or regular? Whats the difference in the sound?


----------



## winders

None of the modern tubes are going to sound all that great. I would still recommend getting a 5670 to 6922 adapter and try the Western Electric 396A tube.


----------



## chef8489

I Have always used solid state amps. What would a tubby amp sound like? I am quite pleased so far with the gold lion i put in today and the k553 pros. The k7xx will be here sat. Hopefully that will be an upgrade. I do want to try more tubs as tubs are all new to me.


----------



## JediMa70

RickB said:


> The EH 6CG7 is somewhat more tubey, but I don't think you're going to get a very tubey sound out of the Vali 2.
> 
> Note: I haven't tried any of the tubes that require an adapter.



That was my same concern.. so I will save money and look for a better tube amp


----------



## chef8489 (Jun 29, 2017)

Darkvoice is on massdrop for 199.


----------



## KoshNaranek

chef8489 said:


> Gold or regular? Whats the difference in the sound?




I have only tried the 6cg7 gold. My experience with EH 6sn7 standard vs gold is that I cannot hear the difference. 

Mike Moffat likes the Western Electric tube in question. I would, however,  not say that there are no good new production tubes. Tubes are as individual as your choice of tranducers. I would recommend that you find people that like the same things and equipment that you do and extrapolate frome there.


----------



## chef8489

There should be a tube lending thread on here.


----------



## chef8489

double post.


----------



## rnros

chef8489 said:


> There should be a tube lending thread on here.



If you want to start the thread and organize the effort, I'll send you the tubes. PM me if interested.


----------



## chef8489

OK I will take you up on


rnros said:


> If you want to start the thread and organize the effort, I'll send you the tubes. PM me if interested.


That is a great idea. I think I will take you up on that offer. Pm inbound.


----------



## rnros

chef8489 said:


> OK I will take you up on
> 
> That is a great idea. I think I will take you up on that offer. Pm inbound.



OK.


----------



## rgmffn

With my somewhat limited experimentation with different tubes, I've found that ones preference for a certain tube is likely influenced by the headphone they are using at the time. I have headphones that sound better with this tube, while others sound better with that tube. . So, just keep that in mind.


----------



## rnros

rgmffn said:


> With my somewhat limited experimentation with different tubes, I've found that ones preference for a certain tube is likely influenced by the headphone they are using at the time. I have headphones that sound better with this tube, while others sound better with that tube. . So, just keep that in mind.



Mostly influenced by the headphone, yes. Assuming one would have settled on a good headphone before rolling tubes. 
Doesn't make sense to spend money on tubes if what you really need is a better headphone.


----------



## PoSR77 (Jun 30, 2017)

Old member here (this account goes back to '15 which is also when I last posted, and I had another account before that which I think I started in '09 or '10) popping back in because last week I got my Vali 2 and I'm ready to try a different tube or two with it.

I'm very skeptical as to whether tubes change the SS (sound signature) at least with hybrids; I had an old Head Direct EF-1 solid-state/tube hybrid and I could never tell any real difference with the tubes I rolled on it (I tried about 5 I think...this was when I was more willing to experiment with audio gear).

I've been happily using my T1's for years (I had a bunch of other cans before I upped my price range and settled on those); first with the EF-1 which is a great sounding and very "tubey" hybrid imo, but which could never really drive them well enough. I also tried the T1's with my old original Matrix M-Stage, but while it could easily drive the T1's, I never really liked the SS of that amp (too congested and unrefined, flat and boring), and as I don't really listen to headphones that much (mostly just for background music at work), I just made do with the EF-1...until it simply stopped working one day.

So then I bought the HD-DAC 1 about a year or so ago to try an elegant all-in-one solution (my DAC for my headphones setup was up until then, and is now again, the original Cambridge Audio Dac Magic), and despite the HD-DAC 1's shortcomings (I never quite liked its SS and wish I my EF-1 never broke, although the HD-DAC 1 did have more power for the T1's) I used that until lightning struck our office a couple weeks ago and fried it (yes, with a surge protector; in fact, luckily, and oddly, it was the only electronic device that got fried). Ultimately this was good because I never really was satisfied with how the HD-DAC 1 sounded, but was just too lazy to do anything about it (and wanted to get my money out of it too...and it just looked so nice in the office!). But I have been looking at Schiit products off and on ever since they came out and decided to finally just try an inexpensive hybrid tube amp from them since I had liked my old EF-1 so much (which was fairly costly back in '10 or so: $400 I think) and the Vali 2 got good reviews.

Well, I'm very happy with the Vali 2! It has plenty of power to drive the T1's (I usually use high gain and don't go above 11 on the quietest albums) and sounds very good; much better than the HD-DAC 1 imo, so I'm mad at myself for sticking with that so-so/boring sounding set up for so long! I'd characterize the Vali 2 sound as clear, energetic, crisp (but not dry), neutral, fast, articulate (but not extremely micro-detailed), tight, cohesive, with good sound stage depth, width, and height: an "openness" the HD-DAC 1 simply lacked (I often felt claustrophobic listening to the HD; just never enough head room).

But if I was looking for an EF-1 with more power, the Vali 2 is not it since it's not nearly as warm or "musical/sweet". I wasn't really looking for that though, while the EF-1 excelled at mellow listening with jazz and classical and acoustic guitar driven music, it was too "soft" for most everything else and made exciting genres sound boring. So while the Vali 2 doesn't excel with the genres the EF-1 did, just about every other type of music I listen to it does (all decades and subgenres of rock, pop, but especially 80's synth rock & pop, metal, soul/rnb/funk, etc.). So it's a great all-rounder: perfect for my needs.

However, if I could replace the stock tube (which, btw, literally has no markings on it! totally unknown brand) and make the Vali 2 a little more micro-detail oriented or make its stock sound simply a better version of what it is now, and also turn it into a more "tubey" sounding amp with a warmer sounding tube for when I want to listen to classical/jazz/vocal-oriented music with more warmth than the default Vali 2 sound, that would be awesome. Like I said, I'm skeptical, but we'll see!


Sorry for the long post so: tl;dr --- I just got the Vali 2, am very pleased with how it sounds, am skeptical that tubes will change its sound much if at all, but am willing to try a few inexpensive ones (the Electro-Harmonix 6922 or JJ E88CC 6922 are both cheap and seem to be well regarded from reading through this thread) and I'll see if I can tell. Thanks to all posters itt for sharing info. and thanks for reading!


PS: Is there any difference between the tubestore or tubedepot? (As in terms of quality of service?)


----------



## chef8489

In a few weeks I will be putting together a tube pass. I am waiting on some tubes and will have a sign up like we do for other equipment. 

Tubes will change the sound. I was quite surprised as I was skeptical for myself. I put in a Gold lion and to me the change was quite noticeable and I am only using the a pair of akg k533 pro.


----------



## PoSR77

I hope they do! I'm really looking forward to altering the SS of the Vali 2 to perfect it. (Although I don't want to go too crazy and buy like 10 tubes, even cheap ones: that will cost more than the amp!). 

So, great, I'm already biased towards a positive result. That expectation won't screw with the results or anything! Nah...  

I really, really tried to hear a difference between tubes with my old EF-1 though; I expected there to be one, and I never got beyond the "maybe...if it is, it's very subtle" stage. So expectation was distorting my experience and still I heard little to no difference. 

It's hard to keep that audio memory even in the minute or two it takes to roll a tube though. But I'm sure if there was a large difference I'd be able to tell. For instance, before I bought the Vali 2, I hooked up my T1's to my old Matrix M Stage just for a stop-gap between good amps (the HD-DAC1 and the as-yet-to-be-ordered Vali 2). Even though it had been a day or two since I had heard the HD-DAC 1, I instantly could tell a large difference between it and the Matrix (the Matrix clearly sounded worse in every possible way). So audio memory can be long lasting if the differences are large enough.


----------



## rnros

Agree with @chef8489. The Vali2 is very responsive to tube rolling.


----------



## Guidostrunk

In a true tube buffered output stage, with no opamps. Tubes are definitely distinguishable. Some say drastic, some say subtle. 
A Siemens CCa, is a polar opposite in sound,  to a Mullard Blackburn 6922. All a subjective opinion though. Cheers 





PoSR77 said:


> Old member here (this account goes back to '15 which is also when I last posted, and I had another account before that which I think I started in '09 or '10) popping back in because last week I got my Vali 2 and I'm ready to try a different tube or two with it.
> 
> I'm very skeptical as to whether tubes change the SS (sound signature) at least with hybrids; I had an old Head Direct EF-1 solid-state/tube hybrid and I could never tell any real difference with the tubes I rolled on it (I tried about 5 I think...this was when I was more willing to experiment with audio gear).
> 
> ...


----------



## Guidostrunk

I'm going to subscribe to this thread , even though I don't own a Vali 2. I'm currently using a Scott Nixon tube dac+ , that uses 1 6922 tube. 

I've been rolling these variants for the last 2.5 years, having owned a Lyr, and Mj2 previously. 

I'm also down for this tube lending thread that I've just read. I'm currently holding 9 tubes, and have more headed my way. 
Post a link to the thread when it's created. 
Cheers!


----------



## RickB (Jun 30, 2017)

When I switch between a vintage Sylvania JAN 6922 and a current production EH 6CG7, I definitely hear a difference. It's not immediately apparent, but after about 20 minutes, the glare that the EH tube has becomes obvious, to my irritation. I always switch back to the JAN 6922. It sucks, because I really would like to make the JAN last as long as possible.

I probably wouldn't even notice the glare, if I didn't have the JAN.


----------



## PoSR77

rnros said:


> Agree with @chef8489. The Vali2 is very responsive to tube rolling.



I have been reading this again and again itt. So it seems the Vali 2's SS is particularly tweakable with tubes. (If indeed this is not a psychoacoustic expectation affect). 



Guidostrunk said:


> In a true tube buffered output stage, with no opamps. Tubes are definitely distinguishable. Some say drastic, some say subtle.
> A Siemens CCa, is a polar opposite in sound,  to a Mullard Blackburn 6922. All a subjective opinion though. Cheers



Perhaps the HF-1 did not have this design; however there was a tube rolling thread for it with people claiming all sorts of changes. I never heard anything beyond so subtle I couldn't even be sure it was there.


----------



## PoSR77

RickB said:


> When I switch between a vintage Sylvania JAN 6922 and a current production EH 6CG7, I definitely hear a difference. It's not immediately apparent, but after about 20 minutes, the glare that the EH tube has becomes obvious, to my irritation. I always switch back to the JAN 6922. It sucks, because I really would like to make the JAN last as long as possible.
> 
> I probably wouldn't even notice the glare, if I didn't have the JAN.



That's why I'm willing to try at least 1 different tube; because sometimes you can't tell what you're missing until you actually hear it.

And yea, subtle differences in audio gear tend to have that "cumulative" affect: you don't really realize them until after some listening. I find lots of speakers are like that, so you have to be very careful and test them in your own home (which you should anyway because of the variations in room acoustics) otherwise those qualities you liked prima facie turn out to be too much coloration in the long run even if they seemed very subtle at first.


----------



## chef8489

posted about a tube pass if you guys might be interested https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/official-schiit-vali-2-thread.790828/page-135#post-13577760


----------



## Tuneslover (Jul 3, 2017)

PoSR77 said:


> Old member here (this account goes back to '15 which is also when I last posted, and I had another account before that which I think I started in '09 or '10) popping back in because last week I got my Vali 2 and I'm ready to try a different tube or two with it.
> 
> I'm very skeptical as to whether tubes change the SS (sound signature) at least with hybrids; I had an old Head Direct EF-1 solid-state/tube hybrid and I could never tell any real difference with the tubes I rolled on it (I tried about 5 I think...this was when I was more willing to experiment with audio gear).
> 
> ...



SORRY I goofed up.  Please see NEXT POST for my Reply.


----------



## Tuneslover (Jul 3, 2017)

@PoSR77:

I actually liked the stock Sylvania 6BQ7A tube but I too did grab the JJ and EH tubes you mentioned above.  Although those popular tubes did sound nice I still kept going back to the stock tube, occasionally rolling the others in.  After several months the JJ and Electro-Harmonix tubes began sounding better to me, maybe they were settling in and finally opening up.

I just purchased and burned-in my new Project Ember and I have to say the tube differences are way more apparent with this amp.  Unfortunately the stock Sylvania tube sounds pretty crappy with the Ember.  With the Vali2 I didn't hear too much noticeable difference in sound between them (in my opinion). The Ember has a superior sound to the V2, sounding clearer/detailed, wider and deeper soundstage and excellent instrument separation.  I still love my V2 but I don't think there's enough room in the stable for both tube hybrids.


----------



## Guidostrunk

I have a few nice vintage tubes available for sale if anyone is interested. All of them are part of pairs that I got over time. I'm letting them go pretty cheap. PM me if interested. 

Cheers


----------



## PoSR77

Tuneslover said:


> I actually liked the stock Sylvania 6BQ7A tube but I too did grab the JJ and EH tubes you mentioned above.  Although those popular tubes did sound nice I still kept going back to the stock tube, occasionally rolling the others in.  After several months the JJ and Electro-Harmonix tubes began sounding better to me, maybe they were settling in and finally opening up.



Interesting. 

Like I mentioned, I don't even know what my stock tube is in the Vali 2 since it is completely without any markings of any kind.

I ordered the JJ E88CC/6922 from TubeDepot; it might be here by the end of the week. 

I'm highly skeptical I'll hear any difference between it and the stock, but we'll see. At the very least I'll have another tube in case the stock one goes bad suddenly. 




Tuneslover said:


> I just purchased and burned-in my new Project Ember and I have to say the tube differences are way more apparent with this amp.  Unfortunately the stock Sylvania tube sounds pretty crappy with the Ember.  With the Vali2 I didn't hear too much noticeable difference in sound between them (in my opinion). The Ember has a superior sound to the V2, sounding clearer/detailed, wider and deeper soundstage and excellent instrument separation.  I still love my V2 but I don't think there's enough room in the stable for both tube hybrids.



I briefly looked at that amp (and other Projects) before I bought the Vali 2, but I just didn't like the cosmetics of it. I thought it would look ungainly in an office setting too. Thanks for the perspective though. 

I'm still very much liking the Vali 2, but I have noticed some hardness, glare, and congestion in the sound I didn't before. Weird, as usually I tend to like audio gear more with time rather than like it less. I still give it a B+/A- though, especially at its price and it's still better than the HD-DAC1! 

I'm hoping that playing with tubes can alter its sound so I can get a more delicate and open sound; a bit warmer would be nice too. But even if that doesn't happen I'm happy with it as is for my purposes.


----------



## chef8489

PoSR77 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Like I mentioned, I don't even know what my stock tube is in the Vali 2 since it is completely without any markings of any kind.
> 
> ...


if you cant I would say it is your ears. There was a big difference between the gold lion and the stock tube with no markings and the tube I got in the mail today from Schiit.  All 3 were different.


----------



## Thelegendofcnr

Hello Guys,

I'm new to tube amps and I spent the last few days reading every single post on this thread while waiting for my Vali 2 to arrive. 
After 4 days and paying 120 euros tax I finally managed to get my Vali 2 and Modi Uber and so far I am very impressed. 

I got 2 tubes from Schiit and they are both different. One of them is Sylvania made in Taiwan and the other one only has a single marking saying G123.

I'm using a pair of HD700's and they are unbelievably fatiguing and bright, songs with a lot of cymbals sound very harsh and somewhat painful. I have to EQ them out. I hate and love these headphones at the same time.
What tubes would you guys recommend to make the sound smoother and less bright?

Thanks for your help in advance.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Thelegendofcnr said:


> Hello Guys,
> 
> I'm new to tube amps and I spent the last few days reading every single post on this thread while waiting for my Vali 2 to arrive.
> After 4 days and paying 120 euros tax I finally managed to get my Vali 2 and Modi Uber and so far I am very impressed.
> ...




First choice would be NOS RCA 6CG7 followed by EH 6cg7. The Toshiba 7dj8 from the tube store will be a little brighter than the 6cg7's but may also be to your taste.

Since you are in Europe, try the Brimar ECC804 from brimaruk.com. I am told British tubes are warm. I have not used that tube but would love to hear your thoughts.


----------



## Thelegendofcnr

Ended up snatching a NOS RCA 6CG7 Clear Top from ebay for 13 euros from a fellow Italian seller, guy said it was tested and balanced hopefully I don't get screwed over.

Thanks a lot for your advice


----------



## PoSR77

The JJ E88CC/6922 from TubeDepot arrived, so I'm taking home my Vali 2 and will play around with it this weekend. I'll try not to let expectation color the results. (I might even get my gf to help me blindly A/B test the stock and JJ).


----------



## chef8489

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/vali-2-tube-pass-of-2017.855165/


----------



## KoshNaranek

Thelegendofcnr said:


> Ended up snatching a NOS RCA 6CG7 Clear Top from ebay for 13 euros from a fellow Italian seller, guy said it was tested and balanced hopefully I don't get screwed over.
> 
> Thanks a lot for your advice


So, what are your thoughts on this tube?


----------



## chef8489

Having a little fun with a 1957 6SN7


----------



## DomieMic65

after spending some months going back and forth to the EH 6922 Gold pin and to EH 6CG7 a few days back I switched to the stock tube and I find it quite good... actually the most balanced of the three
the 6922 is more laid back and smooth
the 6CG7 is faster, somehow in your face (in a good manner) but somehow grainy,
and the stock somewhere in the middle with a more coherent sound stage...
also the stock is the most resistive to a strange RF like buzz I get from the other two... actually the noise changes depending of the tube

I wish I could try some more but I do not want to spend more money just to experiment...


----------



## chef8489

DomieMic65 said:


> after spending some months going back and forth to the EH 6922 Gold pin and to EH 6CG7 a few days back I switched to the stock tube and I find it quite good... actually the most balanced of the three
> the 6922 is more laid back and smooth
> the 6CG7 is faster, somehow in your face (in a good manner) but somehow grainy,
> and the stock somewhere in the middle with a more coherent sound stage...
> ...


I did start a vintage tube tour thread that no one seems interested in. https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/vali-2-tube-pass-of-2017.855165/


----------



## KoshNaranek

chef8489 said:


> I did start a vintage tube tour thread that no one seems interested in. https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/vali-2-tube-pass-of-2017.855165/


It is not that I am not interested in your generous offer, it is that I don't have the time to take advantage of it.

I wish I could be involved in this endeavor, but I have far too much going on. Thank you for your kind generosity. I wish you good karma.


----------



## Guidostrunk

If anyone is interested in a premium top tier tube for an excellent price. Here's a listing I just posted.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-valvo-cca-yellow-print-single.857231/


----------



## chef8489

WHat makes it one of the best in your opinion?


----------



## Guidostrunk

I've been through all the top tubes that the 6922/E88CC family has to offer. 

From Siemens CCa, Tele E188CC, to Philips Heerlen pinched waist. 
Out of all the top tubes , the Valvo Heerlen has the most engaging midrange out of all of them. Comparable soundstage of the Siemens, but with better depth and holography. Very vivid 3D imaging. 

I wouldn't be parting with it if I didn't need the funds due to my pad purchasing madness the past 3 days. Lol.

Also, I don't sell anything on here for profit. I sell everything for what it cost me, to give  others an opportunity to save $ . This tube was part of a pair that I got in a trade. That trade set me back  $130. So now someone has a chance to own one of the best for less. I'll send it off to ebay if a few days if no interest. It's almost impossible to get this tube for under $100 on the web, let alone find one.

Cheers



chef8489 said:


> WHat makes it one of the best in your opinion?


----------



## chef8489

Guidostrunk said:


> I've been through all the top tubes that the 6922/E88CC family has to offer.
> 
> From Siemens CCa, Tele E188CC, to Philips Heerlen pinched waist.
> Out of all the top tubes , the Valvo Heerlen has the most engaging midrange out of all of them. Comparable soundstage of the Siemens, but with better depth and holography. Very vivid 3D imaging.
> ...


Pad as in ear pads or pad as in pipe aquisation disorder?


----------



## Guidostrunk

Pads for my HE560's. Lol.

Here's what Brent Jesse, one of the most knowledgeable people regarding tubes, has to say about the yellow Valvos. 


 


chef8489 said:


> Pad as in ear pads or pad as in pipe aquisation disorder?


----------



## DeeKay10

Might as well buy a Mjolnir.

(*) Yeah I saw you're selling them for $65. It's the original price that busted my balls.


----------



## TheBaaron

Hi, I purchased some K7XXS and wanted an amp that would warm it up, but was still clear and accurate when I was told about the Vali 2. I was wondering, since I know little about audio and less about tubes, if you all had any suggestions as to the tubes I should buy for this particular amp headphone combo. Thank you!


----------



## chef8489

TheBaaron said:


> Hi, I purchased some K7XXS and wanted an amp that would warm it up, but was still clear and accurate when I was told about the Vali 2. I was wondering, since I know little about audio and less about tubes, if you all had any suggestions as to the tubes I should buy for this particular amp headphone combo. Thank you!


JUst take the time and read throug the whole thread and learn a bit.  Also give this a read http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm . It will teach you a bit about most of the tubes you wont need an adapter for.


----------



## DeeKay10 (Aug 8, 2017)

Pretty much what chef8489 wrote. There are a few cheat sheets around the thread, but like everything in audio, there's an aspect of personal taste and preferences.
The path I took:
1. Look at tube pricing (TubeDepot and the likes) and decide what's reasonable. I personally didn't check the specs beyond Schiit's "6DJ8, 6922, ECC88, 2492" note. There are more, perhaps better.
2. Look for comments on the tubes in this thread and on the internet.
3. Buy one or two of the favourites.

If you're in a rush, it's generally agreed that the Electro-Harmonix 6CG7 is a warm(er) sounding tube than the Vali 2's stock one.


----------



## alsius

i've had the vali 2 for about a month. it came with a sylvania 6bz7 tube. 
i replaced the sylvania within the first week for a tesla e88cc gold pin, which was a decent improvement, but yesterday switched to a ge jan 5670 with an adapter. the ge sounds awesome compared to the other 2. 

i'm curious if there's anything considerably better than the ge, but for now i'm very happy with this tube.


----------



## chef8489

alsius said:


> i've had the vali 2 for about a month. it came with a sylvania 6bz7 tube.
> i replaced the sylvania within the first week for a tesla e88cc gold pin, which was a decent improvement, but yesterday switched to a ge jan 5670 with an adapter. the ge sounds awesome compared to the other 2.
> 
> i'm curious if there's anything considerably better than the ge, but for now i'm very happy with this tube.


Using the 5670 adapter i really like the 70s Reflector 6N3P-E tubes. They are probably one of my favorite tubes i have tried overall put of any tube i jave tried.


----------



## alsius

chef8489 said:


> Using the 5670 adapter i really like the 70s Reflector 6N3P-E tubes. They are probably one of my favorite tubes i have tried overall put of any tube i jave tried.



i might have to check that one out. i was thinking of buying a spare of the ge, but that one looks inexpensive enough, might get that instead.


----------



## chef8489

Here is a list of all the vintage i have tried thus far. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-pass-of-2017.855165/
I have also tried the Gold Lion 6922 modern tube and have some more vintage inbound that i am looking forward to trying.


----------



## alsius (Aug 23, 2017)

chef8489 said:


> Here is a list of all the vintage i have tried thus far. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-pass-of-2017.855165/
> I have also tried the Gold Lion 6922 modern tube and have some more vintage inbound that i am looking forward to trying.



nice. you've definitely tried a bunch. how would you rate the ge jan among the others? i've read about the gold lions but those are pretty expensive for me. 
i ordered the reflector to try it out, thanks for the recommendation.


----------



## chef8489

alsius said:


> nice. you've definitely tried a bunch. how would you rate the ge jan among the others? i've read about the gold lions but those are pretty expensive for me.
> i ordered the reflector to try it out, thanks for the recommendation.


Its a pretty good tube. Better than stock, but bass is not as deep as the reflector or highs as detailed and not as much width. I use my k7xx to evaluate the different tubes.


----------



## Niggi183 (Aug 30, 2017)

Recently got a tesla e88cc gold pin and in comparison to the stock tube, the bass (especially the subbass) seems to have improved quite significant. Wish I could A/B them properly, but for now I'm happy.


----------



## Tuneslover

Niggi183 said:


> Recently got a tesla e88cc gold pin and in comparison to the stock tube, the bass (especially the subbass) seems to have improved quite significant. Wish I could A/B them properly, but for now I'm happy.



It is a very nice tube although I find it a bit warm sounding and recessed in the high frequencies.


----------



## DeeKay10 (Sep 5, 2017)

Finally got some time to review the bunch of tubes I ordered a while ago, so without further ado:


*Name/Type*​
*Noise (with IEMs)*​
*Soundstage*​
*Frequency Balance*​
*Character*​NOS 6BZ7/6BQ7ALow, very slight hum.Wide.Lows unemphesized, mids and highs somewhat screechy.The stock tube you might get with the Vali. Detailed and packs a wide soundstage. Great with warm-sounding transducers, great for IEMs.
Doesn't sound a terrible lot like a tube, definitely not smooth or gooey and both mid and low bass are "just there".NOS 6BZ7/6BQ7A (Canada)High, hums, with inefficient cans too. Noise during volume spin.
Likely a bad tube in that regard.Medium-wide.Balanced, doesn't screech.Another stock tube you might get with the Vali. This one has a a narrower soundstage for some reason, doesn't exhibit as much an emphasis on the highs and sounds somewhat less detailed (perhaps as a result). Still great with warm-sounding equipment.Electro-Harmonix 6CG7Low-medium. Sligt hum.Medium-wide.Small lows emphasis.A smooth, slightly gooey-sounding tube, with a small emphasis on the bass. Soundstage is narrower and more intimate than the stock tubes. Personally the to-go tube if you want your Vali to sound like a tube amp.Electro-Harmonix 6922Low, very slight hum.Wide.Lows and high-mids are slightly emphasized.Another smooth-sounding tube, but this time more detailed than either before. Has a wide soundstage and can be reliably used with IEMs.JJ E8CC (gold pins)Medium, slight hum, slight hiss.Wide.Balanced.Smooth-sounding, very slightly less detailed than the previous one and with a slight empahsis on highs. Soundstage is pretty wide and all in all this is another all-arounder, although not as silent for IEMs as the first 6BZ7 and the 6922.
My bottom line and recommendation: Got the Vali 2 to taste some tubes? Electro-Harmonix's 6CG7 and 9622 are the address. Like a more smooth, warmish low response? Get the prior. Looking for more balance and detail, or just using IEMs? Get the latter.
Probably just my selection of tubes, but it seems Electro-Harmonix had hit a home run when it comes to the Vali 2.


----------



## winders

You want some tube magic? Get a 5670 to 6922 adapter and get an older NOS Western Electric 396A tube with a square getter. All the tubes you have tested so far are terrible in comparison.


----------



## Wyd4

winders said:


> You want some tube magic? Get a 5670 to 6922 adapter and get an older NOS Western Electric 396A tube with a square getter. All the tubes you have tested so far are terrible in comparison.



Interesting

Considering picking up a vali2. But after a stereotypical tube sound. Wondering if this setup might fit the bill


----------



## Guidostrunk

Look for some 50's Tung-sol 2c51, Bendix 2c51, and some Western Electric 396a. The GE 5 star triple mica are awesome tubes, but there's others to be had. The 5670 variants are much cheaper as well. 
Here's some tungsol's. Can't beat the price either. 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151621028745


alsius said:


> i've had the vali 2 for about a month. it came with a sylvania 6bz7 tube.
> i replaced the sylvania within the first week for a tesla e88cc gold pin, which was a decent improvement, but yesterday switched to a ge jan 5670 with an adapter. the ge sounds awesome compared to the other 2.
> 
> i'm curious if there's anything considerably better than the ge, but for now i'm very happy with this tube.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Yep! Lol 





winders said:


> You want some tube magic? Get a 5670 to 6922 adapter and get an older NOS Western Electric 396A tube with a square getter. All the tubes you have tested so far are terrible in comparison.


----------



## Andrew Nguyen

rgmffn said:


> I'm quoting myself here.
> 
> Well guys, I'm not sure how to word this.  But, I received my second 6922 EH earlier today.  I had stuff to do so I plugged er in and let it play for ~5hs for a little burn-in.  This second tube came from Tube Depot.  I ticked the balanced output and low noise boxes that added $6 to the price.  The first tube that I have been praising came from......... Amazon.
> 
> ...


I have tried the 6922 EH, got it from upscale audio, but it didn't quite do it for me either.  It provided more bass, but, to me, it lost some high clarity and a more narrow soundstage. It's still way better than the stock tube for sure.  I ended up getting a Philips 7dj8. I think it has clearer highs and upper mids, wider soundstage, and cleaner bass.  YMMV.


----------



## cebuboy

Hi guys, been reading this thread for a while and I'm looking for a tube that would make this little amp as tubey as possibe. Any recommendations and suggestions are highly appreciated.


----------



## RickB

cebuboy said:


> Hi guys, been reading this thread for a while and I'm looking for a tube that would make this little amp as tubey as possibe. Any recommendations and suggestions are highly appreciated.


I would suggest Electro Harmonix 6CG7.


----------



## MementoMori99

I have been listening to my Nightowl Carbon's(w/hybrid earpads) through an iPhone 6, Dragonfly Red(dac only) and Vali 2 with the stock 6BZ7 tube.  I would prefer just a little bit more treble and tighter bass.  Would the EH 6922's or gold lions serve that purpose?  If not, what will?  Any input would be very much appreciated.


----------



## HOWIE13 (Sep 12, 2017)

MementoMori99 said:


> I have been listening to my Nightowl Carbon's(w/hybrid earpads) through an iPhone 6, Dragonfly Red(dac only) and Vali 2 with the stock 6BZ7 tube.  I would prefer just a little bit more treble and tighter bass.  Would the EH 6922's or gold lions serve that purpose?  If not, what will?  Any input would be very much appreciated.


ECC88/E88CC Mullard, Tesla, Tungsram, or a Bugle Boy might suit.


----------



## MementoMori99

HOWIE13 said:


> ECC88/E88CC Mullard, Tesla, Tungsram, or a Bugle Boy might suit.



Thank you.


----------



## MementoMori99 (Sep 12, 2017)

MementoMori99 said:


> I have been listening to my Nightowl Carbon's(w/hybrid earpads) through an iPhone 6, Dragonfly Red(dac only) and Vali 2 with the stock 6BZ7 tube.  I would prefer just a little bit more treble and tighter bass.  Would the EH 6922's or gold lions serve that purpose?  If not, what will?  Any input would be very much appreciated.



I would also like to add that I prefer that the soundstage not be compromised and that the slightly extended treble be relatively smooth.


----------



## chef8489

My latest tube.


----------



## rnros

@chef8489  That. Looks. Nice!!  Betcha it sounds good also.


----------



## rnros

MementoMori99 said:


> I would also like to add that I prefer that the soundstage not be compromised and that the slightly extended treble be relatively smooth.



Reflector 6N3P-E, adapter required.
Or maybe the tube @chef8489 is showing.  : )


----------



## MementoMori99

rnros said:


> Reflector 6N3P-E, adapter required.
> Or maybe the tube @chef8489 is showing.  : )



Thank you. What specific adapter do I get?  Where do I get it?  eBay?  Other?


----------



## chef8489

I agree with the Reflector 6N3P-E and an adapter. Not quite as massive as the tube I am currently working on. I amn still in the burn in phase of the 6C8G tube. It does sound great, but the Reflector is a top notch tube and smaller package.


----------



## chef8489

MementoMori99 said:


> Thank you. What specific adapter do I get?  Where do I get it?  eBay?  Other?


6n3 to ecc88


----------



## MementoMori99

chef8489 said:


> I agree with the Reflector 6N3P-E and an adapter. Not quite as massive as the tube I am currently working on. I amn still in the burn in phase of the 6C8G tube. It does sound great, but the Reflector is a top notch tube and smaller package.



Thank you. Where do I get the Reflector 6N3P-E?  What specific adapter do I get? Where do I get it? eBay? Other?


----------



## rnros (Sep 12, 2017)

MementoMori99 said:


> Thank you. What specific adapter do I get?  Where do I get it?  eBay?  Other?



While you are waiting for the adapter and tube, you can try this:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-pass-of-2017.855165/

Adapter:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-pl...-6DJ8-tube-adapter-for-you-amp-/191866855836?

Reflector 6N3P-E info and couple of links:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers.673709/page-903#post-13688879


----------



## chef8489

Here are all my adapters that I have The solid black is a space saver. Opens up a whole lot of tubes.


----------



## MementoMori99

chef8489 said:


> 6n3 to ecc88



Thank you.


----------



## MementoMori99

rnros said:


> While you are waiting for the adapter and tube, you can try this:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-pass-of-2017.855165/
> 
> ...



Thank you.


----------



## MementoMori99 (Sep 14, 2017)

HOWIE13 said:


> ECC88/E88CC Mullard, Tesla, Tungsram, or a Bugle Boy might suit.



After listening to the Tesla E88CC, for the most part, it has lived up to expectations already expressed in this thread.  The only fly in the ointment is that I find it a little too bright.

How would you rank the following 6922 tubes in the order of brightest sounding?

1.) EH 6922
2.) Gold Lion E88CC
3.) Philips PCC88
4.) Tesla E88CC

FYI, for the time being, since time is of the essence, I have decided to avoid tubes that require an adapter.


----------



## MementoMori99 (Sep 14, 2017)

MementoMori99 said:


> After listening to the Tesla E88CC, for the most part, it has lived up to expectations already expressed in this thread.  The only fly in the ointment is that I find it a little too bright.
> 
> How would you rank the following 6922 tubes in the order of brightest sounding?
> 
> ...



UPDATE:  After burning in the Tesla tube for a couple more hours, most of the treble harshness has subsided.  I am now quite pleased with it.

What I have learned is that assuming that the tube in question has been burned in for a minimum of 24-hrs. or maximum of 50-hrs., for best possible sound it must be warmed up for a minimum of 30-45 min.(if switched on from a cold state) and played with music at medium or slightly above medium volume for a minimum of 3-hrs. before listening to it critically.


----------



## MementoMori99 (Sep 14, 2017)

Out of curiosity, how does the Philips PCC88 compare with the Tesla E88CC?  Which of the two is brighter?  Any input would be very much appreciated.


----------



## CarlosUnchained

Does the preamp use the tube as a buffer?


----------



## HOWIE13 (Sep 15, 2017)

CarlosUnchained said:


> Does the preamp use the tube as a buffer?



All I can tell you is the volume from the RCA outputs is controlled by the volume knob and if you take out the tube there is no sound at all from the RCA outputs. Sorry if this doesn't help.


----------



## mickerru (Sep 28, 2017)

Im a newbie to tubes and rolling and amps and will be needing help. I have recently aquired an hd800 classic and comparing it to the k712 driven by the chord mojo, the highs seems unnatural(newbie term) to me compared to the k712. Instruments with distant depth have a low macrodinamics and seems not present.

I have pulled the trigger on a vali 2 which will arrive on october and was wondering what is a good tube for the vali 2. Others recommend the  GE5670 and have questions.

1. What is the adapter specs needed for the GE5670.
2. Are there other tubes better for the hd800 and what is the adapter needed.

Looking for the most natural sound signature, detailed imaging with wide soundstage for the hd800 driven by the mojo>vali2

Thanks


----------



## chef8489 (Sep 28, 2017)

The ge5670 tube uses the 5670/6DJ8 adaptor. http://www.ebay.com/itm/2Pc-Gold-pl...682953?hash=item2edce7ee49:g:lKAAAOSwOVpXV4q0

I have not listened to the hd800, but I prefer the vintage Reflector 6n3p-e tubes over the Ge 5670. They use the same adapter. It is worth picking up both tubes and comparing them as the reflectors are pretty reasonable.


----------



## HOWIE13 (Sep 29, 2017)

mickerru said:


> Im a newbie to tubes and rolling and amps and will be needing help. I have recently aquired an hd800 classic and comparing it to the k712 driven by the chord mojo, the highs seems unnatural(newbie term) to me compared to the k712. Instruments with distant depth have a low macrodinamics and seems not present.
> 
> I have pulled the trigger on a vali 2 which will arrive on october and was wondering what is a good tube for the vali 2. Others recommend the  GE5670 and have questions.
> 
> ...



My advice would be for you to try your new Vali 2 with the provided stock tube and let us know how it sounds to you.  We will then have a familiar reference point. I don't think as many will have heard the 5670 and that would make comparisons difficult. I presume your HD800 is well burned in as, for me, it betters the AKG in all the aspects you are looking for when paired with Mojo, but then we all hear things a bit differently which means always being circumspect about advice.


----------



## bharris

So, I was about to pull the trigger on some Reflector 6N3P from eBay but the time ran out and the auction that ended hasn't been delisted. I had be traveling a lot lately and I didn't want to buy from Lithuania and not be home when it arrived.

I'm wondering if anyone has an extra one or two that they would be willing to part with for a reasonable price?

Reflector 6N3P? Anyone?


----------



## mickerru

Thanks for the advice. Will stick with the stock and will ask suggestions after. .


----------



## KoshNaranek

mickerru said:


> Thanks for the advice. Will stick with the stock and will ask suggestions after. .


Actually I would approach the the problem like a decision tree. Pick up 2 cheap new tubes to tell you which NOS pathway to go down.

Pick up a JJ standard pin and gold pin tube.

If you like the stock tube, try an ECC804 tube

If you like the JJ standard pin, go down the mullard/amperex/Telefunken route

If you like the JJ gold pin, you can try a 6cg7 or 6sn7 via adapter


----------



## chef8489

bharris said:


> So, I was about to pull the trigger on some Reflector 6N3P from eBay but the time ran out and the auction that ended hasn't been delisted. I had be traveling a lot lately and I didn't want to buy from Lithuania and not be home when it arrived.
> 
> I'm wondering if anyone has an extra one or two that they would be willing to part with for a reasonable price?
> 
> Reflector 6N3P? Anyone?


I do send me a pm.


----------



## RustyPitchfork

So I just got a Vali 2 with a number of tubes (have a bunch on order from Europe as well). I thought the stock tube was really bland and quickly made me question the amp all together. I popped in a Tesla ECC88 (72) Gold Pin and WOW!!!! What a difference. The bass is huge, and the treble is sparkling and stunning. I can't wait to try out the others.


----------



## MementoMori99 (Oct 14, 2017)

RustyPitchfork said:


> So I just got a Vali 2 with a number of tubes (have a bunch on order from Europe as well). I thought the stock tube was really bland and quickly made me question the amp all together. I popped in a Tesla ECC88 (72) Gold Pin and WOW!!!! What a difference. The bass is huge, and the treble is sparkling and stunning. I can't wait to try out the others.



FYI, the Tesla E88CC is the only other tube that I have tried other than the stock one.  It has ended my tube rolling tendencies into the foreseeable future, as I have been quite pleased with it.  I highly recommend this tube for hp's that have tonal qualities ranging from relatively neutral to dark(warm).

Tube rolling can be quite addictive and can become quite expensive.  With that in mind, I have decided to limit my tube choices to those that are $50 or less and can be obtained from upscale audio.  The Tesla's meet that criteria.


----------



## RoninChaos

Where can I get the Tesla tubes?


----------



## RustyPitchfork

Agreed. It is stunning. I have some Amperex Bugleboy Holland made 6DJ8 in my Lyr 2 that I w


RoninChaos said:


> Where can I get the Tesla tubes?



Brent Jessee sells them. A quick Google search has lots of vendors. Mine was made in '72.


----------



## MementoMori99

RoninChaos said:


> Where can I get the Tesla tubes?



I got the gold graded version at the link below.

https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/tesla-e88cc-6922


----------



## Underthebed

Looking for opinions on the best tube for hd800?


----------



## dbaker1981

1PC Psvane UK-6SN7 HIFI series Vacuum Tubes Replace EL34 6SN7 6CA7 6CA7-T https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01E8U1GZU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_R214zb61R63H4


Can I use this with the vali 2 if I have the adaptor?


----------



## RustyPitchfork

No. This is a power tube not a preamp tube. There are lots of good recommendations throw
It the thread. I would recommend going through and reading them.


----------



## cebuboy

Yes you can.


----------



## dbaker1981

I use a 6sl7 now and was just wondering if they would be any difference in signature.


----------



## cebuboy

dbaker1981 said:


> I use a 6sl7 now and was just wondering if they would be any difference in signature.



Don’t how a 6SL7 sounds, but a 6SN7 sounds good with the HD650


----------



## RustyPitchfork

cebuboy said:


> Yes you can.


I stand corrected.


----------



## HOWIE13

Underthebed said:


> Looking for opinions on the best tube for hd800?


HD800 and Vali2 are both very versatile and most tubes I have tried sound good with them.
I would read about the characteristics of the various tubes in the Vali2 Forums and then try one or two which have the characteristics you seek as you are the only person who can answer your question.


----------



## Underthebed

thanks. I've was actually surprised how good the stock tube was. The only markings on the side are 1239...can't find any info online.


----------



## SyDroX

Greetings, 

I'm a bit new to tube rolling, I and am currently interested to try out a different tube, specifically the EH6922. I've stumbled upon this:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/201493982849

Forgive my lack of research, but there is only one in quantity and it seems to be what I'm looking for plus 2 other tubes. Is this a good deal? And more importantly are these compatible with the schiit vali 2?


----------



## KoshNaranek (Oct 29, 2017)

SyDroX said:


> Greetings,
> 
> I'm a bit new to tube rolling, I and am currently interested to try out a different tube, specifically the EH6922. I've stumbled upon this:
> 
> ...


These are not only expensive, but not compatible. These are 12 volt tubed and you need a 6 volt tube. You are looking for a 6dj8, 6922, 7308, e88cc, e188cc, e85cc, cv2492, cv2493, 6n1p, 6n23p or 6cg7 tube. A 7dj8 should also work.

Other tubes can be used with the help of adapters

Do you know what kind of sound you are looking for?

Edit:
Oops, I just looked at the 12au7. 6922 are also available. Price for 3 6922 is fine, but why do you need 3?


----------



## SyDroX

KoshNaranek said:


> These are not only expensive, but not compatible. These are 12 volt tubed and you need a 6 volt tube. You are looking for a 6dj8, 6922, 7308, e88cc, e188cc, e85cc, cv2492, cv2493, 6n1p, 6n23p or 6cg7 tube. A 7dj8 should also work.
> 
> Other tubes can be used with the help of adapters
> 
> Do you know what kind of sound you are looking for?



Oh wow, thank you, kind of feels like I dodged a bullet. I'm looking for something more warm I like the hum of the lower bass frequencies and I'm using a modi 2 which is connected to my pc via usb, songs are flacs / 320kbps mp3s and I'm using foobar2k with a graphic equalizer plugin


----------



## HOWIE13 (Oct 29, 2017)

SyDroX said:


> Greetings,
> 
> I'm a bit new to tube rolling, I and am currently interested to try out a different tube, specifically the EH6922. I've stumbled upon this:
> 
> ...



You may be able to use the 12AU7 with an adapter but the EL84 is a pentode with a heater current of 750mA and that won't be suitable.


----------



## KoshNaranek

SyDroX said:


> Oh wow, thank you, kind of feels like I dodged a bullet. I'm looking for something more warm I like the hum of the lower bass frequencies and I'm using a modi 2 which is connected to my pc via usb, songs are flacs / 320kbps mp3s and I'm using foobar2k with a graphic equalizer plugin


Go to tubedepot.com and look around. If you want warm, try the 6cg7. If that is too warm, try the 6922 or ecc804(they are inexpensive)


----------



## KoshNaranek

HOWIE13 said:


> You may be able to use the 12AU7 with an adapter but the EL84 is a pentode with a heater current of 750mA and that won't be suitable.


The 12au7 is a twelve volt tube. You would need an adapter and a 12 volt power supply for the heater


----------



## HOWIE13 (Oct 29, 2017)

KoshNaranek said:


> The 12au7 is a twelve volt tube. You would need an adapter and a 12 volt power supply for the heater



You can use a 12AU7 without a separate 12V heater power supply using this compact and inexpensive adapter:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Gold...880670&hash=item2cb62f65e1:g:QRMAAOSwA3dYNUfL

Here's a photo of RCA 'clear top' using the above adapter. It has a rich euphonic character:


----------



## KoshNaranek

HOWIE13 said:


> You can use a 12AU7 without a separate 12V heater power supply using this compact and inexpensive adapter:
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Gold...880670&hash=item2cb62f65e1:g:QRMAAOSwA3dYNUfL
> 
> Here's a photo of RCA 'clear top' using the above adapter. It has a rich euphonic character:


Well, you learn something new every day!


----------



## HOWIE13

KoshNaranek said:


> Go to tubedepot.com and look around. If you want warm, try the 6cg7. If that is too warm, try the 6922 or ecc804(they are inexpensive)



Totally agree with you about  ECC804. It's a very good, under-appreciated tube.


----------



## SyDroX

KoshNaranek said:


> Replying to edit because I've only noticed it now.
> 
> Edit:
> Oops, I just looked at the 12au7. 6922 are also available. Price for 3 6922 is fine, but why do you need 3?



Yeah it's a price for a lot of 3, so considering the fact one EH6922 costs about the same on amazon (plus shipping since I'm not from the states) I thought this might be a good deal. Even if I won't use the other two. I've tried searching on tubedepot. I managed to find the ECC804. However, I got multiple results for the 6922, some of which were rather expensive. Could you link me the exact one I should be looking for?


----------



## RickB

SyDroX said:


> Yeah it's a price for a lot of 3, so considering the fact one EH6922 costs about the same on amazon (plus shipping since I'm not from the states) I thought this might be a good deal. Even if I won't use the other two. I've tried searching on tubedepot. I managed to find the ECC804. However, I got multiple results for the 6922, some of which were rather expensive. Could you link me the exact one I should be looking for?



https://www.tubedepot.com/products?utf8=✓&keywords=6922+eh


----------



## Brad Riegler

Tube Depot has some deals on some interesting tubes. https://tubedepot.com/t/tubedepot-sale

Correct me if I'm wrong but won't a Western Electric 417A work with an adapter? I think I read somewhere someone really liked it in the Vali 2


----------



## Vas19

Save yourself some time and buy a 2C51/5670 adapter and start rolling those tubes. Vali 2 can hold its own with much more expensive amps. Don't underestimate it based on its price.


----------



## Yayoubetcha (Nov 13, 2017)

Try one of these - http://www.tubemonger.com/mobile/Product.aspx?id=1229 

Brand Spanking New, MINT NOS NIB 1970 Amperex/Philips PCC88 7DJ8 A-Frame Dimple Disc Getter Tubes with  Dario Miniwatt Label. Identical DJH 40J2 Heerlen Holland Production Date Codes (first letter 4xxxx, 4=delta or left triangle for Heerlen Plant). Boxes are a bit fragile but the tubes are pristine. Very musical and desirable tube in the PCC88 family. 

I have one and they are awesome. 50 bucks but you won't have to buy an adapter or another tube. I have half a dozen 20 dollar tubes I'll sell for 50 bucks so I can buy another, lol.


----------



## musicfan145 (Nov 25, 2017)

I finally slogged my way through this thread, and I made quite a few notes along the way. I feel like I have an idea of which tubes are popular and generally highly regarded, but I’m left wondering a few things:

Am I right in thinking that the higher-end Telefunken tubes are best for jazz and classical, while the higher end Mullard tubes are best for rock?

Is there any one “no compromise” tube that excels at rock midrange/bass but also has the highs to expand the soundstage of my closed headphones without being analytical or fatiguing?

People clearly love the Western Electric 396a, but how  does it compare to the better brands/grades of NOS 6922-type tubes in terms of sound signature and sound quality?

The WE396a also seems to be hard to find from any place that will sell a NOS single tube with any assurance of quality. At what price point is the 396a no longer worth purchasing, relative to the other options?


----------



## Jacobal

Has anyone tried $200-300+ upgrade tubes with this yet?


----------



## winders

musicfan145 said:


> I finally slogged my way through this thread, and I made quite a few notes along the way. I feel like I have an idea of which tubes are popular and generally highly regarded, but I’m left wondering a few things:
> 
> Am I right in thinking that the higher-end Telefunken tubes are best for jazz and classical, while the higher end Mullard tubes are best for rock?
> 
> ...



I used to hoard Siemens CCa and Telefunken CCa tube pairs for my Mjolnir 2 because they were the best sounding tubes I had ever heard. Then I tried the Western Electric "JW" 2C51 tubes (5670/396A equivalent) and was blown away. They had all the detail and clarity of the CCa tubes but had warmth and incredible soundstage as well. I sold all the pairs of CCa tubes and now I don't own a single 6922 tube. That's not quite true. I do have the 6922 tubes that came with my Mjolnir 2 and Vali 2.

The Western Electric "JW" 2C51 and 396A tubes are better than any 6922 tube I have ever heard and they cost quite a bit less. I spend no more than $100 per pair and often quite a bit less. I will never buy a high end 6922 tube again.


----------



## IPA-60-IBU

6dj8 family of tubes is very popular, therefore good tubes are way overpriced these days. If you know how to use a soldering iron, give subminiature tubes  a chance. I'm currently using a soviet mini dual triode, 6N16G-VIR, a special purpose, heavier version of 6,16b. All aspects of sound are better in comparison to the 6dj8 tubes I have tried, for a fraction of the price.


----------



## musicfan145

winders said:


> I used to hoard Siemens CCa and Telefunken CCa tube pairs for my Mjolnir 2 because they were the best sounding tubes I had ever heard. Then I tried the Western Electric "JW" 2C51 tubes (5670/396A equivalent) and was blown away. They had all the detail and clarity of the CCa tubes but had warmth and incredible soundstage as well. I sold all the pairs of CCa tubes and now I don't own a single 6922 tube. That's not quite true. I do have the 6922 tubes that came with my Mjolnir 2 and Vali 2.
> 
> The Western Electric "JW" 2C51 and 396A tubes are better than any 6922 tube I have ever heard and they cost quite a bit less. I spend no more than $100 per pair and often quite a bit less. I will never buy a high end 6922 tube again.



Thanks so much. Now the challenge seems to be finding one. I can’t find anything listed as a JW 2C51. How different is it from the 396a? 

Even the 396a seems difficult to find in a single, balanced tube. Tube Depot lists a single NOS WE 396a for $99. I emailed them to ask about triode balance, and this was their response:

“Thanks for your email. The age of this tube prevents us from accurately testing the triode balance. We apologize for the
inconvenience.”

Buying a pair off eBay seems like the only option.


----------



## volly

I'm back just to share some more tubes with you lovely people!




 

 

For those who are interested:

Tubes - 6J1P-EV x 2
Adapter - Dual 6AK5 5654 EF95 TO ECC88 6922 6DJ8 tube converter adapter

Have fun!


----------



## Jacobal

Does it sound better than one tube?


----------



## volly

Jacobal said:


> Does it sound better than one tube?



Hi Jacobal, I've had these tubes in a pre amp with about 80+ hours before I got the adapter for the Vali 2, so they're fairly well run-in. 

Rolled out the Tungsram Pcc88 which I was running for about a month prior to these voshods.

As  to your question, I'd say _*YMMV*_...sorry to sound vague but my initial impressions in the Vali 2 are still quite fresh. 

I will say after a massive listening session with the modi/vali2 and my HD600's, I was in musical heaven, I seriously didn't want to stop listening! This is a great pairing and great synergy at work here!

One or two tubes? It just sounds freaking nice! and it looks very cool! 

Can you get this experience with just one tube, sure, I got a few single tubes that sound amazing, but this is my "Frankenstein" experiment, which after lived to be a very beautiful beast!

Perhaps, more impressions to come.

Enjoy the musica!


----------



## cmateski

I've been looking for a headphone tube amp and the Schiit Vali 2 is on the list. Lot's of great information posted here especially about rolling tubes. For me I'm still making up my mind if the Vali 2 is the right platform or not but I found this thread a great read.


----------



## volly

cmateski said:


> I've been looking for a headphone tube amp and the Schiit Vali 2 is on the list. Lot's of great information posted here especially about rolling tubes. For me I'm still making up my mind if the Vali 2 is the right platform or not but I found this thread a great read.



For the money, the Vali 2 is a great start if you want to get in to tubes. Heck, it could be your last amp. 

I have a bunch of headphone amps but the Vali 2 always gets used! It sounds so well with many of my headphones, which really shows it's strengths as an amp!

If you end up going for it, there's a lot of info in the threads here regarding the Vali 2 and it's tube choices. 

Good luck and remember to enjoy the music!


----------



## mickerru

Torn between an ge 5670 on an adaptor or the amperex usa 6922 PQ for my 1st tube to roll. Anyone here who compared the 2? Need help in deciding. Will use a hd800 and looking for the most detailed and most natural sounding tube to roll. Thanks


----------



## volly

mickerru said:


> Torn between an ge 5670 on an adaptor or the amperex usa 6922 PQ for my 1st tube to roll. Anyone here who compared the 2? Need help in deciding. Will use a hd800 and looking for the most detailed and most natural sounding tube to roll. Thanks



How much are both investments?


----------



## mickerru

I think theres a difference of 50$


----------



## winders

I would get a 5670 to 6922 adapter and buy a Western Electric 396A tube. You will be amazed with the sound.

Here is the adapter:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1piece-Gol...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Hey is a good tube to get:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-El...591245?hash=item1a3c95aacd:g:1AgAAOSw4Z5aLtiN

All for less than $65 delivered. 

Way better sounding than either tube you listed!!


----------



## mickerru

winders said:


> I would get a 5670 to 6922 adapter and buy a Western Electric 396A tube. You will be amazed with the sound.
> 
> Here is the adapter:
> 
> ...




Thanks bro


----------



## Lekoguy

Hi, new guy here.

I just received my Vali 2 today and haven't even gotten it set up yet.  One I get it up and running I'll report back with my first impressions.

The tube which was supplied is labeled 6BQ7A / 6BZ7 USA.  There are no other markings to indicate a manufacturer.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Lekoguy said:


> Hi, new guy here.
> 
> I just received my Vali 2 today and haven't even gotten it set up yet.  One I get it up and running I'll report back with my first impressions.
> 
> The tube which was supplied is labeled 6BQ7A / 6BZ7 USA.  There are no other markings to indicate a manufacturer.



Welcome to Head Fi. We are all friends here.


----------



## volly

Lekoguy said:


> Hi, new guy here.
> 
> I just received my Vali 2 today and haven't even gotten it set up yet.  One I get it up and running I'll report back with my first impressions.
> 
> The tube which was supplied is labeled 6BQ7A / 6BZ7 USA.  There are no other markings to indicate a manufacturer.



Welcome to the club dude, give the stock tube a good long run and enjoy the music!

What cans you pairing with the Vali 2?


----------



## Lekoguy

KoshNaranek said:


> Welcome to Head Fi. We are all friends here.


Thank you!

I'm looking forward to great interactions about our shared love of truly fine audio.


----------



## Lekoguy

volly said:


> Welcome to the club dude, give the stock tube a good long run and enjoy the music!
> 
> What cans you pairing with the Vali 2?


Right now I'm using the Monoprice DJ Headphones.  I'm going through a major upgrade and waiting on delivery of Massdrop/Sennheiser HD 6XX.


----------



## Lekoguy

I just ordered a new production Electro-Harmonix 6922 with balanced triodes.  I'm not quite ready to spring for NOS.  It'll be my first experience with tube rolling.


----------



## Lekoguy

volly said:


> Welcome to the club dude, give the stock tube a good long run and enjoy the music!
> 
> What cans you pairing with the Vali 2?


Right now I'm using Monoprice DJ  Hi-Fi phones.  I'm awaiting delivery of the Massdrop/Sennheiser HD 6XX.  I'm in the process of a major upgrade.


----------



## Lekoguy

Just ordered a new production Electro-Harmonix 6922 with balanced triodes.  I'm not quite ready for the NOS plunge.

This will be my first experience with tube rolling.  It's a whole new world.


----------



## volly

Nice job, should be a decent tube, but seriously, give this thread a good read once or twice. Lot's of good info on all kinds of tubes!

If you got the funds then go for it but you're looking to save a few bitcoins (LOL), a few hours of reading will help you nail down some killer tubes that shouldn't cost you much!

But try and give the stock tube a go so you can reference back to it with newer tubes!


----------



## winders

This post is gospel....really!!!:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-66#post-13910761


----------



## Lekoguy

Well damn, everyone is being so helpful !!!

I'm here to learn and I appreciate all the advice.

I'm so glad I found this forum. 

Thanks all.


----------



## musicfan145

Lekoguy said:


> Hi, new guy here.
> 
> I just received my Vali 2 today and haven't even gotten it set up yet.  One I get it up and running I'll report back with my first impressions.
> 
> The tube which was supplied is labeled 6BQ7A / 6BZ7 USA.  There are no other markings to indicate a manufacturer.



The great thing about buying a Vali 2 now is that it is $20 cheaper than it was originally. That's like one free tube!


----------



## musicfan145

winders said:


> This post is gospel....really!!!:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-66#post-13910761



Regarding those 5670 adapters: They are really inexpensive, and they take a LOOOOONG time to arrive (like 3-4 weeks). So if you ever plan to roll tubes outside the standard pin arrangement, go ahead and purchase the adapter ahead of time. If not, you'll be like I was: sitting there with a vintage 396a in hand having to wait weeks to plug it in and hear it!

Regarding the vintage Western Electric 396a tubes: The first one I purchased was ugly, worn out, and highly unbalanced (30/36), but it was super cheap ($20 shipped) and still sounds better than the stock tube.


----------



## Lekoguy

Earlier in this thread Volly displayed his Frankentuber and it really took me by surprise.  What does it do?  What are the pros and cons?  If I try this will I tingle with excitement?

Am I already loosing my mind?


----------



## musicfan145

Funny story:

After months of searching for a bargain, I finally gave in and paid a ridiculous amount of money for a Western Electric JW 2C51 in top shape. It was shipped in an box that was comical large, and as I excitedly opened the package my five year-old asked “What is it Daddy?”

Without much thought, I said, “It’s a vacuum tube.”

After I retrieved the tiny white box from the ocean of packing peanuts and opened it up, a confused look came over his face. Then he said, “Daddy, I thought you said it was something for the vacuum cleaner?”

He fully expected it to be an extension for the vacuum cleaner hose!


----------



## Lekoguy

Excellent!

Are there NOS Vacuum cleaners available?


----------



## luckybaer (Jan 21, 2018)

I recently purchased a Vali 2/Modi 2 Multibit combo from Schiit Audio and I've been putting it through its paces for the last 3 days.  My set up is pretty basic:

Computer -> USB (Audioquest Forest) -> Modi 2 -> RCA (PYST cables from Schiit) -> Vali 2 -> HD650

I've tried the following tubes:

Stock Tube:  6BZ7 Canada
JJ Electronic E88CC
Electro-Harmonix 6922

The stock tube is OK, but underwhelming.  Narrow soundstage, extension is meh, etc.  It wasn't bad, and until I tried the other tubes, I was actually satisfied.

JJ Electronic was better than the stock (better extension across mids, bass, without any fatiguing highs).

The Electro-Harmonix is my favorite so far.  Relatively airy presentation, separation, resolution, definition... it just has that je nais se quoi.  It is hard for me to describe the difference - but the Electro-Harmonix just sounded like a more complete listening experience.  

I'll stick with it for a while before I try anything else.


----------



## hardpike

got my Vali 2 a few days ago...after reading all this thread (fantastic one) I am ready to roll (Yep, intended).

I got two tubes coming, EH 6922 and one of those mysterious mitsus**ta of 7 volts.

AND the adaptor for the (I expect glorious ) Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z. (I will machine the cover of the vali to make it big enough)

soooo...as I said... ready to roll!


----------



## mickerru

Whats tha adaptor needed for ShuguangTreasure CV181-Z.


----------



## hardpike

I bought this

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/1piece-gol...047925?hash=item2efd2c8135:g:NA8AAOSwLVZVoK06


----------



## volly

hardpike said:


> got my Vali 2 a few days ago...after reading all this thread (fantastic one) I am ready to roll (Yep, intended).
> 
> I got two tubes coming, EH 6922 and one of those mysterious mitsus**ta of 7 volts.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the club mate!

You can get risers for the tube like these: 
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/9Pin-Ba...100565?hash=item3627640615:g:zfEAAOSwj99aKPME
Might just save you some handyman work.

The Matsushita's should be a decent one if it is in good nick, judging by the feedback here:
https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/preamp-tubes/products/matsushita-national-pcc88-7dj8

The Shunguang is a beast but will require a lot of burn-in to start sounding decent (Just beware, approx 100hrs needed) as some sources have reported!

Good luck and try not to go to far down the rabbit hole Alice!


----------



## bcowen

Greetings,

My first post here. I'm a long time audio addict, but very new to the world of headphones.  After a couple stumbles with the initial 'phone purchases, I landed a pair of previously loved Mr. Speaker Alpha Primes and am quite happy with them streaming Tidal lossless via laptop to a Modi Multibit / Vali2 stack.  I've been a tube-head for most of my audio life, and the most common side effect of such an affliction is a great big huuuuge pile of tubes accumulated over the years.  So I'm fortunate to have lots of stuff to play with, but I must say that I'm really impressed (and appreciative) of the creativity shown in this forum and thread with the rolling possibilities.  I'd never have connected the dots to an adapter and a 396A or 5670 for the Vali. Finally a use for those WE's and Sylvania's that have been sitting forever.  Have an adapter on the way from Hong Kong, but lots of stuff to play with until it gets here..currently a Siemens made, RCA branded 6DJ8 that makes the stock 6BZ7 tube sound broken, and is the best yet of the handful of 6DJ8 family tubes I've tried. 

But now it looks like I need to buy *another* adapter for an octal base.  Have plenty of 6SN7's, but I'd actually have to purchase a CV-181...horrors!  For those that have tried both, is the Shuguang CV-181Z a big step up from the 396A (and variants)? Or more incremental?  Thanks!


----------



## hardpike

Thanks
The matsus**ta is sounding great, it is a step up from the stock tube. very nice. I will try the EH 6922 soon.
while I am awaiting for the 6SN7 adaptor, I have decided not to order the Shuguang (for the moment) and I got a *Philips JAN* 6SN7WGTA which seems to be quite regarded.
now...wait and see. I will report back in a few days.


----------



## volly

bcowen said:


> Greetings,
> 
> My first post here. I'm a long time audio addict, but very new to the world of headphones.  After a couple stumbles with the initial 'phone purchases, I landed a pair of previously loved Mr. Speaker Alpha Primes and am quite happy with them streaming Tidal lossless via laptop to a Modi Multibit / Vali2 stack.  I've been a tube-head for most of my audio life, and the most common side effect of such an affliction is a great big huuuuge pile of tubes accumulated over the years.  So I'm fortunate to have lots of stuff to play with, but I must say that I'm really impressed (and appreciative) of the creativity shown in this forum and thread with the rolling possibilities.  I'd never have connected the dots to an adapter and a 396A or 5670 for the Vali. Finally a use for those WE's and Sylvania's that have been sitting forever.  Have an adapter on the way from Hong Kong, but lots of stuff to play with until it gets here..currently a Siemens made, RCA branded 6DJ8 that makes the stock 6BZ7 tube sound broken, and is the best yet of the handful of 6DJ8 family tubes I've tried.
> 
> But now it looks like I need to buy *another* adapter for an octal base.  Have plenty of 6SN7's, but I'd actually have to purchase a CV-181...horrors!  For those that have tried both, is the Shuguang CV-181Z a big step up from the 396A (and variants)? Or more incremental?  Thanks!



Welcome mate, the Shunguang works well in the Vali 2, something about its clarity and control with just the right amount of wetness. This person describes it a lot (in not, more articulate) better than I can.
_*"When I am listening to sand (solid-state amplification) I often yearn for the virtues of valves, the midrange lucidity, the unforced realistic instrumental timbre, the natural soundstage etc. When I am listening to glass I often yearn for those solid-state qualities of solid bass, pace, rhythm, finely etched treble, grandiose macro dynamics etc. Plugging the Shuguang Treasure series CV181Z into 6SN7GT locations takes the traditional valve qualities and adds some of the silicon tautness." *- _

Here is the link if you would like to read the review: http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/shuguang_treasures_cv181_e.html

How are the Alpha Primes treating you? 

Listening to the Massdrop T-X0 as I type this.


----------



## volly

hardpike said:


> Thanks
> The matsus**ta is sounding great, it is a step up from the stock tube. very nice. I will try the EH 6922 soon.
> while I am awaiting for the 6SN7 adaptor, I have decided not to order the Shuguang (for the moment) and I got a *Philips JAN* 6SN7WGTA which seems to be quite regarded.
> now...wait and see. I will report back in a few days.



The Philips shouldn't disappoint, but I'd burn in the Matsushita's longer, I hear they're supposed to be using the same tooling from Mullards back in the day?

Don't look past the Russian equivalent 6H8C's, probably one of my personal favorites!


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> Welcome mate, the Shunguang works well in the Vali 2, something about its clarity and control with just the right amount of wetness. This person describes it a lot (in not, more articulate) better than I can.
> _*"When I am listening to sand (solid-state amplification) I often yearn for the virtues of valves, the midrange lucidity, the unforced realistic instrumental timbre, the natural soundstage etc. When I am listening to glass I often yearn for those solid-state qualities of solid bass, pace, rhythm, finely etched treble, grandiose macro dynamics etc. Plugging the Shuguang Treasure series CV181Z into 6SN7GT locations takes the traditional valve qualities and adds some of the silicon tautness." *- _
> 
> Here is the link if you would like to read the review: http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/shuguang_treasures_cv181_e.html
> ...


----------



## bcowen (Jan 29, 2018)

Thanks for the welcome and info, Volly.  Guess there's a CV-181Z in my future.  

I'm liking the Alpha Primes quite a lot.  I upgraded to the "DUM" cable which was rather unimpressive at first, but after 72 hours of burn-in on the Audiodharma cable cooker, really hit its' stride and is a nice improvement over the standard cable.  The Primes have a nice balance to my ears with just enough weight in the bass, and nice extension up top without any glare or fatigue. Would love just a bit more romance and harmonic bloom in the mids, which I'm confident I'll be able to do with the right tube in the Vali. Lots of great suggestions here to try!

Edit: seems I double posted (above).  Apologies.  New forum software to get used to.  Perhaps a mod can delete it?


----------



## hardpike

Thanks Volly! I have learned a lot reading your posts.

sure... my view so far is:

matsush**a: tubey, liquid, very nice. Soundstage medium, dynamic medium, detail medium.
EH: holy.... very dynamic, huge soundstage (and I mean huge with my stax....gigantic), very detailed, very transparent...not very tubey (I miss a bit of tubey here). but not aggressive.

I love so far matsush**a for classical... love that tubey sound with classical, is fantastic. also probably acoustic and jazz stuff.
EH for the rest.

I know I know... still more time needed for burn in... my Vali 2 never sleeps!....


----------



## boostdemon

Based off some information i found in this thread, i picked up a pair of Western Electric 396A black plate tubes from ebay and also the recommended 6N3 to ECC88 converter also from ebay ... and it powers up, but no sound. Neither tube. Did i screw up somewhere? what am i missing here?


----------



## boostdemon

I took the case off the converter... says 6N3 to 12AX7.. thats still in our wheelhouse right?


----------



## cebuboy

Did the tube warm up and glow?


----------



## boostdemon

yup, warms up.. glows... no sound.


----------



## volly

Hrmmm...all I can think of is, if the adapter is the issue, if it is 'indeed' a 6N3 to 12AX7 design then that might be the issue. Pretty sure the pin outs for a 12AX7 is different to 6922/E88CC.

I've read somewhere that 12AX7 mostly run at 6v but the pin lay out is totally different, so no plug n play.

Hope you get it sorted mate.


----------



## bcowen

The pinout is in fact different between a 12AX7 and a 6922 -- pin 9 is unused in the 6922 and is a heater tap for the 12AX7. From the looks of it the wrong label was put on the outer ring of the adapter, at least if the circuit board is marked correctly.  Boostdemon, I ordered one from the same seller (tubemalls), and it was supposed to arrive last week.  No sign of it, so I emailed him the other day and he suggested I call the Post Office and complain to them. Really?  I just finished complaining to PayPal instead. But good luck trying to get some resolution from him. I placed an order with another seller yesterday which will hopefully turn out better.


----------



## boostdemon

Man that sucks. I got mine today and it was purchased on the 17th. It is chinese new year though so maybe its slow. 

This is what he wrote back to me today: 
_hello,
ecc88 and 12ax7 only filament pins different, the board have have three jumpers, one for ECC88 tube, two for 12AX7 tube, if you have multimeter you can test, the adapter sold over 600pices, never not works.
Thanks!_

I cant imagine that I have 2 bad tubes. I guess i could go buy another converter and another 6N3 tube to test with and see whats what? I do have a multimeter - i suppose i could try and figure out whats messed up - i'm guessing its the converter but I dont want to damage anything by screwing up.


----------



## boostdemon

bcowen said:


> The pinout is in fact different between a 12AX7 and a 6922 -- pin 9 is unused in the 6922 and is a heater tap for the 12AX7. From the looks of it the wrong label was put on the outer ring of the adapter, at least if the circuit board is marked correctly.  Boostdemon, I ordered one from the same seller (tubemalls), and it was supposed to arrive last week.  No sign of it, so I emailed him the other day and he suggested I call the Post Office and complain to them. Really?  I just finished complaining to PayPal instead. But good luck trying to get some resolution from him. I placed an order with another seller yesterday which will hopefully turn out better.



Where in NC are you? I'm in Cary. I'd be happy to send you mine.. you can test it out.


----------



## bcowen

"_ecc88 and 12ax7 only filament pins different..."  
_
LOL! Therefore the correct voltage to the filament (cathode) must be irrelevant to the proper operation of the tube.  Good grief.
I don't know how these things are wired (as I don't have mine yet ), and I'm by no means a tube expert, so I can't say for sure it's the adapter. But his cavalier dismissal of the filament wiring doesn't instill much confidence.  It's possible (although unlikely) you could have 2 bad tubes -- tubes sourced from Ebay can be pretty risky if you don't know the seller.  

I'm in Mt. Holly, but grew up in Raleigh and spent many hours of my youth "borrowing" the latest and greatest stuff from Cary Audio.  If you want to send me the adapter to try I'm game. You can send me the tubes to test too if you like -- have a Hickok 752A that's one of the better Hickok's.  Not a comprehensive test rig, but will show any gross defects like gas, shorts, low gM or poorly matched triode sections.


----------



## bcowen

Forgot to mention.  Nifty program here:

http://www.duncanamps.com/tdslpe/

Download and install (it's only 1.5 mb or so), and using the search on the menu bar you can quickly look up any tube and see its pinout, ratings, and links to data sheets.  Might be of some help if you want to see what you can find with your multimeter.


----------



## boostdemon

Cool, I'll do some simple testing to see if i can figure out which part is the culprit this weekend... and if i have no luck, send me your shipping info and i'll send em over to you. Thanks!


----------



## bcowen

Hope there's some truth to the saying "3rd time's the charm."  The first 6922 -> 396A adapter I ordered from "tubemalls" (Ebay) back at the beginning of January is finally showing tracking activity.  It's in Frankfort...the one in Germany, not Kentucky.    Even Kentucky is a bit of an inconvenience since I'm in NC.  The 2nd one I ordered almost 2 weeks ago from another Ebay seller is still showing "acceptance" at the origin Post Office, but hasn't even been "scanned into sack" yet.  If it starts moving at some point, there's no telling what continent it may end up on.  So 3rd try today through AliExpress.  I've had good luck ordering stuff through their sellers, just as I've had very bad luck ordering from Chinese sellers on Ebay.  So crossing fingers....maybe one day I'll get an adapter so I can play with some 396A's and 5670's.  Until then, I'm groovin' to a '60's vintage Mullard CV2492. I did NOT like this tube in my big-rig preamp -- mushy, slow, and syrupy sounding, and while the bass is a bit "plump" in the Vali, the midrange and lower treble is giving me a heapin' serving of goosebumps.  If the 396A and variants blow the 6922/6DJ8 family into the weeds, I can't wait to maybe finally someday sometime get an adapter.


----------



## volly

bcowen said:


> Hope there's some truth to the saying "3rd time's the charm."  The first 6922 -> 396A adapter I ordered from "tubemalls" (Ebay) back at the beginning of January is finally showing tracking activity.  It's in Frankfort...the one in Germany, not Kentucky.    Even Kentucky is a bit of an inconvenience since I'm in NC.  The 2nd one I ordered almost 2 weeks ago from another Ebay seller is still showing "acceptance" at the origin Post Office, but hasn't even been "scanned into sack" yet.  If it starts moving at some point, there's no telling what continent it may end up on.  So 3rd try today through AliExpress.  I've had good luck ordering stuff through their sellers, just as I've had very bad luck ordering from Chinese sellers on Ebay.  So crossing fingers....maybe one day I'll get an adapter so I can play with some 396A's and 5670's.  Until then, I'm groovin' to a '60's vintage Mullard CV2492. I did NOT like this tube in my big-rig preamp -- mushy, slow, and syrupy sounding, and while the bass is a bit "plump" in the Vali, the midrange and lower treble is giving me a heapin' serving of goosebumps.  If the 396A and variants blow the 6922/6DJ8 family into the weeds, I can't wait to maybe finally someday sometime get an adapter.



Haha...I'd imagine you're gonna be inundated with tube adapters, sometimes it's pot luck when ordering off eBay. I get most my stuff from there and yes certain seller are questionable with long delivery times. But lucky for me the stuff I order ends up at it's destination!

I've ordered a single slot adapter myself for my 5670 stash, I have a dual adapter which works fine but I'd like to test whether there is an audible difference between a dual socket to a single (just for laughs ).

I still haven't gotten around to the Mullards yet, can never get them for a 'decent' price but only hear good things about the characteristics of them. When I get my adapter I'd probably shoot for a few more 5670 equivalent tubes, Mullard included!

Right now, I've rolled in my Telefunken 7Dj8's, talk about goosebumps! Liquid-like clarity in the midband, solid sound stage and that extension low and high (gasp!). Great tube, I'd glad I bought it years ago! The Siemens 7Dj8 might be next.

On a different topic, I heard Schiit are moving to the new production 6Sn7 tube by TungSol for some of their products, tempted to get one as I can source The Tungsol locally from a guitar shop, having these adapters for other tube variants is extremely handy! More so Schiit making a very decent hybrid tube amp to roll with.

I think you'll find that you'll either love or hate some tubes in your stash, and from time to time, you'll just be rolling in a certain personalities that you're missing (sort of like eq'ing ).

Good luck.


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> Haha...I'd imagine you're gonna be inundated with tube adapters, sometimes it's pot luck when ordering off eBay. I get most my stuff from there and yes certain seller are questionable with long delivery times. But lucky for me the stuff I order ends up at it's destination!
> 
> I've ordered a single slot adapter myself for my 5670 stash, I have a dual adapter which works fine but I'd like to test whether there is an audible difference between a dual socket to a single (just for laughs ).
> 
> ...



You're probably right....I'll end up with 3 adapters. Only question is if they'll appear while I can still hear.  Maybe I'm just overly spoiled with Amazon Prime.

Be very interested in your thoughts on the dual versus single adapter when you get it.  I've been ordering the single version, but if there's some additional goodness with two versus one, I'll order up a dual.  Who knows, it may end up getting here first.... 

I've tried both Matsushita and Philips 7DJ8's.  Neither one pushed my buttons, but then neither one are Telefunkens either.  Have a few different vintages of Tele 6DJ8's, but haven't tried them in the Vali  yet. And while I like much of the Amperex 6DJ8 family (especially the 7308), Telefunken was the grand master of that tube type (IMO) which would logically continue into the 7DJ8 as well.
Have a 6SN7 adapter ordered, and yes, it's not here yet.   Have a pretty big stash of 6SN7/5692's, so eager to find that magical combination that makes me quit ordering adapters!!.


----------



## volly

Mate, if you got some NOS 6Dj8 Telefunken's then you might be on a good thing! Sadly the prices on those kinds have skyrocketed.


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> Mate, if you got some NOS 6Dj8 Telefunken's then you might be on a good thing! Sadly the prices on those kinds have skyrocketed.



Well, now you have me rummaging through the stash.    Have to run some through the Hickok and find one with closely matched triode sections.

Gotcha on the "EQ'ing" thing, although I cheated by adding a Loki last week.  What fun!  I had to close the blinds and dim the lights to minimize risk of discovery by the audiophile police ("You're using an...an...an...EQUALIZER?!?!?") , but it's way worth it.  The Loki seems to do no wrong by veiling or adding noise or phase shift like most inexpensive 'tone controls' do, so I'm quite pleased with it. I wanted just a bit more weight and fullness in the mid/upper bass with the Alpha Primes, and the Loki does just that without introducing other liabilities.


----------



## volly

Mate, the Loki would be fun times! My speaker amp has limited tone control (treble/bass), comes in hand with my older rock/metal tracks. 

I'd imagine, the loki stacked with a Vali 2 would be mini dynamo! A beautiful sounding tube mixed with a bit of hardware eq'ing would be a real delight!

The Alpha Primes should eq well? I hear they're fairly neutral and well extended on either ends of the spectrum!


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Hope there's some truth to the saying "3rd time's the charm."  The first 6922 -> 396A adapter I ordered from "tubemalls" (Ebay) back at the beginning of January is finally showing tracking activity.  It's in Frankfort...the one in Germany, not Kentucky.    Even Kentucky is a bit of an inconvenience since I'm in NC.  The 2nd one I ordered almost 2 weeks ago from another Ebay seller is still showing "acceptance" at the origin Post Office, but hasn't even been "scanned into sack" yet.  If it starts moving at some point, there's no telling what continent it may end up on.  So 3rd try today through AliExpress.  I've had good luck ordering stuff through their sellers, just as I've had very bad luck ordering from Chinese sellers on Ebay.  So crossing fingers....maybe one day I'll get an adapter so I can play with some 396A's and 5670's.  Until then, I'm groovin' to a '60's vintage Mullard CV2492. I did NOT like this tube in my big-rig preamp -- mushy, slow, and syrupy sounding, and while the bass is a bit "plump" in the Vali, the midrange and lower treble is giving me a heapin' serving of goosebumps.  If the 396A and variants blow the 6922/6DJ8 family into the weeds, I can't wait to maybe finally someday sometime get an adapter.



It's always a bit of a lottery ordering things from China. Sometimes I've gotten things in a couple weeks, mostly it takes at least a month. I lucked out on the last batch of adapters I bought. The seller kindly upgraded shipping to e-packet and I had them in a little over a week.

I saw you mentioned Mullards and Matsu… I was a little surprised you weren't thrilled with the Matsushita. Aren't they supposed to use the same tooling as Mullards? I've been considering getting a 6dj8 version myself since they're a fair bit cheaper than the actual Mullard equivalent.

I have a GE triple mica, square getter, etched glass 5670 myself. Haven't given it much time yet, initial impressions were it was rather bright and forward sounding, so I moved on (just got the amp and had many tubes to try)
For the record, my fav tube so far is an EI Yugo 12au7 (with the necessary adapter). Supposedly they're made with Telefunken gear and have many similar qualities (don't have any Teles myself to compare with). What I really like is they way the tube can make my headphones disappear with the music seemingly materializing from the ether (they very same reason I prefer stand mounted 2 way speakers)


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## bcowen (Feb 10, 2018)

volly said:


> Mate, the Loki would be fun times! My speaker amp has limited tone control (treble/bass), comes in hand with my older rock/metal tracks.
> 
> I'd imagine, the loki stacked with a Vali 2 would be mini dynamo! A beautiful sounding tube mixed with a bit of hardware eq'ing would be a real delight!
> 
> The Alpha Primes should eq well? I hear they're fairly neutral and well extended on either ends of the spectrum!




Yes, the Alpha's are pretty revealing of whatever you throw at them.  I've been happy with them from first listen as they have nice extension in both directions, good dynamics, a sweet (but not syrupy) midrange, and while revealing, they don't shred your ears even with marginal sources.  I'm terribly inexperienced in the headphone world, but I like the overall presentation of them well enough that I'm having more fun working on what feeds them rather than feeling a need to get on the headphone merry go round.  Ive spent most of my life on that merry go round, just not with headphones.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> It's always a bit of a lottery ordering things from China. Sometimes I've gotten things in a couple weeks, mostly it takes at least a month. I lucked out on the last batch of adapters I bought. The seller kindly upgraded shipping to e-packet and I had them in a little over a week.
> 
> I saw you mentioned Mullards and Matsu… I was a little surprised you weren't thrilled with the Matsu****a. Aren't they supposed to use the same tooling as Mullards? I've been considering getting a 6dj8 version myself since they're a fair bit cheaper than the actual Mullard equivalent.
> 
> ...



The Matsu came across as rather bland and boring.  It may just not partner well with the Alphas, or maybe I didn't give it a fair chance due to the right-brain dominating with "A 7.6 volt tube can't possibly sound good being fed only 6.3 volts."  I'll give it another whirl at some point.  Too many tubes sitting here waiting their turn.  What a horrible problem to have. 

Interesting on the 12AU7. I guess the adapter sums the two 6.3 volt feeds?  That's another tube I never would have thought about trying -- nice to know an adapter is available.  I ran across a half-dozen Tele ECC82's while I was rummaging for 6DJ8's, which was right after I spied two boxes with E188CC printing.  The ultimate 6922 variant, and pure unobtanium these days, so my heart almost stopped.  Unfortunately, the tubes inside (while still pretty nice) are plain Jane Tele ECC88's.  Oh well.  Guess it's pretty bad to lay hands on a pair of awesome tubes and be disappointed.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> The Matsu came across as rather bland and boring.  It may just not partner well with the Alphas, or maybe I didn't give it a fair chance due to the right-brain dominating with "A 7.6 volt tube can't possibly sound good being fed only 6.3 volts."  I'll give it another whirl at some point.  Too many tubes sitting here waiting their turn.  What a horrible problem to have.
> 
> Interesting on the 12AU7. I guess the adapter sums the two 6.3 volt feeds?  That's another tube I never would have thought about trying -- nice to know an adapter is available.  I ran across a half-dozen Tele ECC82's while I was rummaging for 6DJ8's, which was right after I spied two boxes with E188CC printing.  The ultimate 6922 variant, and pure unobtanium these days, so my heart almost stopped.  Unfortunately, the tubes inside (while still pretty nice) are plain Jane Tele ECC88's.  Oh well.  Guess it's pretty bad to lay hands on a pair of awesome tubes and be disappointed.



I asked around about the adapter before hand, just to make sure it'll work. Apparently the difference between the 6dj8 and 12au7 is whether the heaters are wired in series or parallel. The adapter basically does the same thing the 6v/12v jumper on the various g1217 amps do. I was happy to find out that I'd still be able to use my 12au7 tubes - only have a couple from my Little Bear P1 days. I can also use the adapter as a socket extender for 6SN7 tubes so that's an extra bonus. A bit of a pain having to use 2 adapters but since I'd otherwise have to mod the case of the Vali to fit a 6sn7, I'll have to make do


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## volly (Feb 10, 2018)

@Mr Trev - 12au7 hey....I got a few from previous tube amps, I think I got a 12au7 Gold lion Genelex as well...would love to try it in the Vali 2.
Does the adapter keep the tube from drawing too much power? Might order an adapter this week.

@bcowen  - If you got good eyes, try reading the markings/lettering on the Tele's, apparently that will give you an idea on which factory they were made in. I believe the 'real' Tele's came from Germany and there are other's manufactured in by Philips?


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## Mr Trev (Feb 10, 2018)

volly said:


> @Mr Trev - 12au7 hey....I got a few from previous tube amps, I think I got a 12au7 Gold lion Genelex as well...would love to try it in the Vali 2.
> Does the adapter keep the tube from drawing too much power? Might order an adapter this week.
> 
> @bcowen  - If you got good eyes, try reading the markings/lettering on the Tele's, apparently that will give you an idea on which factory they were made in. I believe the 'real' Tele's came from Germany and there are other's manufactured in by Philips?



I don't think the power demands of the 12au7 are any worse/ higher than the 6dj8, so I don't see it being an issue. From the info I've gathered no harm can be done either way. The only difference I've noticed is the filaments don't seem to glow as bright as they did in my P1 - still sounds great, though.

One thing to keep in mind… It's Chinese New Year so the country is closed until the end of the month


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## bcowen

volly said:


> @Mr Trev - 12au7 hey....I got a few from previous tube amps, I think I got a 12au7 Gold lion Genelex as well...would love to try it in the Vali 2.
> Does the adapter keep the tube from drawing too much power? Might order an adapter this week.
> 
> @bcowen  - If you got good eyes, try reading the markings/lettering on the Tele's, apparently that will give you an idea on which factory they were made in. I believe the 'real' Tele's came from Germany and there are other's manufactured in by Philips?



Found 3 of the ECC88's that test quite well with closely matched triodes. All 3 have "Made in Germany" silkscreened on them (easy to read) and the Tele diamond molded in the glass on the bottom.  Not sure if the diamond is any indication of the factory, only that it's a genuine Tele.  

Need to give the one I put in some more break-in time, but it already sounds pretty awesome.  Compared to the Mullard it has better defined bass with more impact, and a more detailed treble. Overall more dynamic.  It gives up a bit of the to-die-for midrange of the Mullard. Still nice, but lacking that last bit of richness and palpability.  The Tele is rock-n-roll nirvana, while the Mullard makes classical sound like the only art form worthy of being called music.   I'll post more thoughts once I'm confident the Tele has fully settled in.


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## volly

I tellz ya, this telefunken is gosh darn beautiful to listen too! It's really something, been in my stash for a while and delivers like a mofo!

@bcowen  - Your tube stash sounds like some sexy 70's man-cave up in there!


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## bcowen

volly said:


> I tellz ya, this telefunken is gosh darn beautiful to listen too! It's really something, been in my stash for a while and delivers like a mofo!
> 
> @bcowen  - Your tube stash sounds like some sexy 70's man-cave up in there!



  A misspent youth, most likely.  Most of the NOS stuff was bought 15-20 years ago, some from retail dealers, some by getting lucky in resale shops and estate sales, most from Ebay.  A good tube tester was critical for the Ebay stuff...had a minty Hickok 539C and stupidly sold it in favor of my current 752A 'cause the 752A tests the second triode in a dual triode tube with the push of a button rather than having to rotate 4 knobs with the 539C.  But the 539C was a much more thorough tester, and I never could justify the bucks for one of the lab grade testers.  I keep planning on selling some of this off, and then I run across a use for the unused stuff and am glad I kept it.  Most of the big octals and 4-pinners (KT-66's/77's/88's, 300B's, EL-34's, 6550's, 845's, etc) are in the back of the closet and I'm way too lazy to go drag them out.


----------



## volly




----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I don't think the power demands of the 12au7 are any worse/ higher than the 6dj8, so I don't see it being an issue. From the info I've gathered no harm can be done either way. The only difference I've noticed is the filaments don't seem to glow as bright as they did in my P1 - still sounds great, though.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind… It's Chinese New Year so the country is closed until the end of the month



Well, Mr Trev, you must have used the Force on my weak will and have me buying another dang adapter.   I knew these would be put to good use at some point.  The Mullards can sound really good in the right component, and the Amperex 7316 is to the 12AU7 world what the Telefunken E188CC is to the 6DJ8 world (except the 7316's aren't unobtanium, at least right now).


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## Mr Trev

Dang, that's quite the stash you have. Finding the 12au7 adapter was available was a big reason I ended up with the Vali2. I was leaning towards a g1217 due to the fact they have a wider range of rolling options, but with the adapter the Vali narrows things a bit (the g1217 still wins, being able to use up to 1a heater current)

I don't have a huge selection of 12au7 (or other tubes in general - I'm fairly new to this tube thing), so I can't say they'll blow you away in the Vali2. I can say they won't blow up in your face however


----------



## luckybaer

I have a Philips PCC88/7DJ8 and a Matsush!ta/National PCC88/7DJ8 arriving today.  I am interested to see how they sound relative to my “entry-level” Electro Harmonix 6922 and JJ E88CC.

The EH6922 is my favorite so far.  It doesn’t have the low end of the JJ E88CC, but it seems to have a more neutral and airy signature.  Both are fun listens, and upgrades to the stock tube I received (not a bad listen, but relatively thin and cold compared to the other two).

One other note:  since I like swapping out tubes, I purchased a socket saver from Tube Monger:  

Plug Play NOVIB Socket Saver©-1960s NOS British McMurdo Phenolic socket on Top plus Vibration Reduction Base - 9-pin B9A NOVAL -( NOT MADE IN CHINA) - NEW VERSION

It was a little pricey than some other options, but I figured it would be worth it for some peace of mind.

I also have a Magni 3 in order (Schiit says it will ship 7-14 business days after the order is received).  I can’t wait to compare the Magni to my Vali.  I couldn’t resist getting the Magni - at $99, I’ve read that it can hold its own against SS amps costing 2x or 3x more.


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## volly

From all accounts the EH6922 is a very fine tube, up there with the best of today's production. 

I'd recommend anyone to try a NOS Telefunken, (NOT CHEAP) but damn if you can get a good price on one, then go for it! A worthy tube for your stash!

Magni 3 - Such great feedback about that little amp. I got too many amps and I'm saving up for one of them Focal headphones but damn...tempted to replace the Asgard 2 but she treats me well!


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## Mr Trev

The amp I bought (second-hand) came with a few tubes. I was pleasantly surprised with the JJ 6922 gold pin. Not so much with the Philips JAN 6922. Still haven't managed the courage to try the stock 6bz7

I have a Tele ECC189. It does sound good, but seems to be prone to random bursts of noise in the Vali (possibly due to the variable gain). My EI Yugo 12au7 (which I'll now refer to as Yugo-Funken) was built with Tele tooling and supposedly has many similar sound characteristics. My fav by far. I should be getting a TS mouse ear 6sn7 this week - depending on the shipping gods, so I'll see if that still holds true


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## bcowen (Feb 12, 2018)

Mr Trev said:


> Dang, that's quite the stash you have. Finding the 12au7 adapter was available was a big reason I ended up with the Vali2. I was leaning towards a g1217 due to the fact they have a wider range of rolling options, but with the adapter the Vali narrows things a bit (the g1217 still wins, being able to use up to 1a heater current)
> 
> I don't have a huge selection of 12au7 (or other tubes in general - I'm fairly new to this tube thing), so I can't say they'll blow you away in the Vali2. I can say they won't blow up in your face however



I'll be very interested to hear the 12AU7 in the Vali.  I've had quite a number of components in my big rig over the years that used the 12AU7, so I've built up a pretty varied stash.  The Amperex 7316 is my hands-down favorite, but lots of other good flavors out there too including variants like the 5963, 5814, 6189, etc.  I'll be having more fun when the adapter arrives, and thanks for the heads-up on rolling this tube!  Oh, and NOT blowing up in my face is a huge positive.


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## bcowen

volly said:


> From all accounts the EH6922 is a very fine tube, up there with the best of today's production.
> 
> I'd recommend anyone to try a NOS Telefunken, (NOT CHEAP) but damn if you can get a good price on one, then go for it! A worthy tube for your stash!
> 
> Magni 3 - Such great feedback about that little amp. I got too many amps and I'm saving up for one of them Focal headphones but damn...tempted to replace the Asgard 2 but she treats me well!



A big, resounding +1 on the Telefunkens.  After some more play time, mine is sounding pretty amazing.  The Mullard still beats it with the harmonic depth and detailing in the midrange, but the Tele is better in most every other respect, and *way *better in some areas like bass extension, treble detail, and overall dynamics.

And wouldn't you know it...my 5670/396A adapter showed up today.    Not the first one....the second one I ordered more than 3 weeks after ordering the first one, LOL.  I just *have* to try it, but I have no real desire to uproot the Tele at this point.  Maybe later.


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## volly

Haha...always the way with eBay! _LOL 
_
Yeah, the Telefunken though, gosh! You said it better than me. I had it in for 2-3 nights now and I've had to A/B it with different headphones (HD600/D2000/X2/T-X0) cause it was sounding just wonderful. liquidy smooth with astonishing detail retrieval like a Russian NOS but even more romantic! 

I'll be rolling in a 7Dj8 Seimens next but I think it's gonna have to wait a while. Just having a great time with this tube again, I find these moments are few and far between!

Got a feeling my 5670 adapter should be arriving next week. (just the one though!)


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## luckybaer (Feb 13, 2018)

luckybaer said:


> I have a Philips PCC88/7DJ8 and a Matsush!ta/National PCC88/7DJ8 arriving today.  I am interested to see how they sound relative to my “entry-level” Electro Harmonix 6922 and JJ E88CC.
> 
> The EH6922 is my favorite so far.  It doesn’t have the low end of the JJ E88CC, but it seems to have a more neutral and airy signature.  Both are fun listens, and upgrades to the stock tube I received (not a bad listen, but relatively thin and cold compared to the other two).
> 
> ...


The Philips PCC88/7DJ8 and Matsush!ta/National PCC88/7DJ8 are a cut or two over the other 3 tubes I have.  Bass:  More impact, more extension, more cohesion.  Treble:  Clean, better extension - decay on cymbals is a step up, for example.  Mids: smooooth - what I would expect from a decent tube.  I've done all my listening with my DT880 (250 ohm), and I've got to say they synergize quite well with my gear and these tubes.  Fatigue that sometimes annoys me due to the DT880's highs has all but been eliminated.  Very pleased!

Oh, and I probably should add the music I've listened to while making comparisons:

_Moby Dick -_ Led Zeppelin, "Led Zeppelin II"
_Here Comes Your Man -_ Pixies, "Doolittle"
_YYZ -_ Rush, "Moving Pictures"
_Daytime Drama -_ Billy Idol, "Rebel Yell"
_Someday, Someway -_ Marshall Crenshaw, "Marshall Crenshaw"
_Never You Done That -_ General Public, "All the Rage"
_Supernaut -_ Black Sabbath, "Vol. 4"
_Rainbow In The Dark,_ Dio, "Holy Diver"
_Skin O' My Teeth,_ Megadeth, "Countdown to Extinction"
_Let Me Drown,_ Soundgarden, "Superunknown"

Sorry.  No classical, jazz, etc.
_
_


----------



## roshambo

I tried out both the 6CG7EH and JJ Goldpins 6922, and greatly prefer the JJ's.

The EH is definitely a different sound. Warm, but seems compressed or even a hair muffled. Both bass and treble seem to roll off, and resolution seems less. I did some rolling at work with a buddy and he immediately remarked the JJ was a "significant upgrade" over the 6CG7.


----------



## bcowen

roshambo said:


> I tried out both the 6CG7EH and JJ Goldpins 6922, and greatly prefer the JJ's.
> 
> The EH is definitely a different sound. Warm, but seems compressed or even a hair muffled. Both bass and treble seem to roll off, and resolution seems less. I did some rolling at work with a buddy and he immediately remarked the JJ was a "significant upgrade" over the 6CG7.



Did you use an adapter for the 6CG7, or just plug it straight in?  Have quite a few 6CG7/6FQ7's in the stash, but I'm not buying another adapter....at least until next week.


----------



## bcowen

luckybaer said:


> The Philips PCC88/7DJ8 and Matsush!ta/National PCC88/7DJ8 are a cut or two over the other 3 tubes I have.  Bass:  More impact, more extension, more cohesion.  Treble:  Clean, better extension - decay on cymbals is a step up, for example.  Mids: smooooth - what I would expect from a decent tube.  I've done all my listening with my DT880 (250 ohm), and I've got to say they synergize quite well with my gear and these tubes.  Fatigue that sometimes annoys me due to the DT880's highs has all but been eliminated.  Very pleased!
> 
> Oh, and I probably should add the music I've listened to while making comparisons:
> 
> ...



You have great taste in music!  Picked up a Yes LP ('90125') at a garage sale a couple weekends ago.  Even though I grew up in their era, I had no idea those guys could rock out like that.  "Hold On" and "City of Love" are some real headbangin' treats.

And you also have great taste in equipment...although my 'phones are different, what feeds them mimics yours exactly.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Did you use an adapter for the 6CG7, or just plug it straight in?  Have quite a few 6CG7/6FQ7's in the stash, but I'm not buying another adapter....at least until next week.



From what I remember the 6cg7 has the same pinout as the 6dj8 so no adapter required. Of course you could use a socket saver too… just cause.
A decent 6cg7 is still on my shopping list… Lemme know what sounds good


----------



## roshambo

6CG7 plugged straight in just fine. Not using any adapters or socket savers.


----------



## luckybaer

bcowen said:


> You have great taste in music!  Picked up a Yes LP ('90125') at a garage sale a couple weekends ago.  Even though I grew up in their era, I had no idea those guys could rock out like that.  "Hold On" and "City of Love" are some real headbangin' treats.
> 
> And you also have great taste in equipment...although my 'phones are different, what feeds them mimics yours exactly.


Haha!  Thanks for the compliments.  90125 is one of my favorites.  I have a couple of different releases of that album:  one from Audio Fidelity and another one from Rhino.  I had a cassette of that album when I was in high school.  It may even still be lying around somewhere, but I’ve no means with which to listen!


----------



## scotvl

I posted this in the official Vali 2 thread but this one seems to be where you guys are hanging out so I'll ask here and maybe get some tube rolling recommendations while I'm at it. 

I'm thinking of picking up the vali 2 to primarily use on my night stand for listening before bed with IEMs and I want to try it out as a preamp for my home system to try to mellow out my Polk RTI A9s once in a while for 2 channel listening. I was wondering if anyone here has tried using the vali 2 as a preamp and what you thought about it. Also what would be a good tube for a 16 ohm dynamic driver IEM with low noise lush mids and good sound stage and what would be a good tube to try in the Vali 2 as a preamp to try and warm up my Polk RTI A9s in my home theatre rig for 2 Channel listening. Thanks


----------



## winders

I use my Vali 2 as a preamp for my powdered monitors 99% of the time. It's no Saga but it is a reasonable preamp how I use it. I think the best all around tube is the WE396A/2C51 using an 5670 to 6922 adapter. Inexpensive and wonderful sounding.


----------



## luckybaer

scotvl said:


> I posted this in the official Vali 2 thread but this one seems to be where you guys are hanging out so I'll ask here and maybe get some tube rolling recommendations while I'm at it.
> 
> I'm thinking of picking up the vali 2 to primarily use on my night stand for listening before bed with IEMs and I want to try it out as a preamp for my home system to try to mellow out my Polk RTI A9s once in a while for 2 channel listening. I was wondering if anyone here has tried using the vali 2 as a preamp and what you thought about it. Also what would be a good tube for a 16 ohm dynamic driver IEM with low noise lush mids and good sound stage and what would be a good tube to try in the Vali 2 as a preamp to try and warm up my Polk RTI A9s in my home theatre rig for 2 Channel listening. Thanks


I've never tried the Vali 2 as a preamp, and I've only listened to IEMs (Massdrop x NuForce EDC) for a few minutes - everything sounded good, and I didn't detect any noise/hiss at the levels at which I listen (pretty low levels, though).

As far as tubes go, why not give the tube that comes with it a try for a while?  That way you'll have a baseline reference prior to trying something else.  Once you've gotten a feel for them, there are lots of tubes to try.  Some good ones for around $15 each!

There are a couple of "entry-level" tubes that I enjoyed:

*JJ E88CC:  *
A fuller sound than the stock tube, with more bass than the EH 6922.  An inoffensive listen - especially with headphones that are not bass heavy.  Very reasonably priced.  Pairs well with my DT880 and K601.  OK with HD650, meh with AH-D2000.
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/jj-e88cc-6922-preamp-vacuum-tube

*Electro Harmonix 6922*
To my ears, the EH 6922 is a tad bit cleaner sounding than the JJ.  It doesn't have as much "thump" as the JJ, but it is more than adequate.  I have to really focus to tell the difference between the two - the amount of bass being the most obvious difference.  A good, all-around tube that won't break the bank.  I like this one with the HD650, but it does well with every headphone I own (not sure about SR-80e, because I haven't spent much time with them lately).
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/electro-harmonix-6922-eh-preamp-vacuum-tube

The following tubes are a step up the ladder in price (and in sound quality) from the previous two tubes.

*Matsushita National PCC88/7DJ8*
A step up from the JJ and the EH above.  Tighter, deeper bass.  Smoother mids.  Better treble extension (as I mentioned in an earlier post, cymbal decay is the most obvious example).  More than 2x as much as the JJ or EH.  A very pleasant, intimate listening experience.  I've listened mostly with my DT880, and it is awesome.
https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/preamp-tubes/products/matsu****a-national-pcc88-7dj8

*Philips PCC88/7DJ8*
Also a step up from the EH and JJ, and also 2x or 3x more expensive.  I haven't compared the Philips to the Matsushita A/B yet, so I can't comment on which one I prefer.  My suspicion is that there are differences, but none that would definitely stick out as a reason for preferring one over the other.  Like the Matsushita, I really enjoy it with the DT880.  Everything else sounds good with it, but the DT880 really blossoms with the last two tubes on this list.
https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/preamp-tubes/products/philips-pcc88-7dj8


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## scotvl (Feb 15, 2018)

winders said:


> I use my Vali 2 as a preamp for my powdered monitors 99% of the time. It's no Saga but it is a reasonable preamp how I use it. I think the best all around tube is the WE396A/2C51 using an 5670 to 6922 adapter. Inexpensive and wonderful sounding.


Thanks for the reply, I just want to colour the sound a bit to roll off or tame the highs a bit and have read people saying the Vali 2 isn't that great as a preamp.  My Polk RTI A9s are biamped right now with my pioneer 1227k powering the two midrange and tweeters and I have the preouts from the pioneer going to a crown X2000 feeding 330 watts to the 3 woofers of each A9 . My plan is to cut the pioneers class D amps out of the picture completely except for surround and power the speakers completely from the X2000. I'm planning on either putting the Vali 2 in between the pioneer and the amplifier or just running from the line out of my FiiO x3ii into the Vali 2 into the amp.
  I hope it makes a difference, plus tube rolling looks like a fun way to change up the sound until I can afford a proper 2 Channel system.

Editing to say thanks for the tube recommendation, is the tube depot a good place to buy tubes when I'm ready?

https://www.tubedepot.com/products/396a-2c51-we


----------



## Mr Trev

Having only owned the amp for a little over a month I haven't collected/hoarded many tubes yet. One question I do have is what a realistic price range to pay for tubes? I'm completely loathe to pay more for a tube than I paid for the amp. I've also read impressions (some conflicting) that the Vali 2 isn't particularly good at showcasing differences in tubes (due to negative feedback in the circuit?) in the first place. What do you guys think?


----------



## winders

scotvl said:


> Thanks for the reply, I just want to colour the sound a bit to roll off or tame the highs a bit and have read people saying the Vali 2 isn't that great as a preamp.  My Polk RTI A9s are biamped right now with my pioneer 1227k powering the two midrange and tweeters and I have the preouts from the pioneer going to a crown X2000 feeding 330 watts to the 3 woofers of each A9 . My plan is to cut the pioneers class D amps out of the picture completely except for surround and power the speakers completely from the X2000. I'm planning on either putting the Vali 2 in between the pioneer and the amplifier or just running from the line out of my FiiO x3ii into the Vali 2 into the amp.
> I hope it makes a difference, plus tube rolling looks like a fun way to change up the sound until I can afford a proper 2 Channel system.
> 
> Editing to say thanks for the tube recommendation, is the tube depot a good place to buy tubes when I'm ready?
> ...



I would not use the Vali 2 as a preamp in a normal 2 channel setup. It works fine with my powered monitors at my desk.

I would would bu the WE396A/2C51 tubes on ebay. $100 per pair/$50 single is the most I would pay. Adapters are hard to get in a timely manner so I would be buying one of those now.


----------



## winders

Mr Trev said:


> Having only owned the amp for a little over a month I haven't collected/hoarded many tubes yet. One question I do have is what a realistic price range to pay for tubes? I'm completely loathe to pay more for a tube than I paid for the amp. I've also read impressions (some conflicting) that the Vali 2 isn't particularly good at showcasing differences in tubes (due to negative feedback in the circuit?) in the first place. What do you guys think?



Rubbish. Quality tubes make a difference. The quality tubes I would use from the 6922 family cost a lot more than the same to better quality tubes in the 5670 family. That's why I recommend getting the 5670 to 6922 adapter and WE396A tubes. That should cost well under $100.


----------



## scotvl

luckybaer said:


> I've never tried the Vali 2 as a preamp, and I've only listened to IEMs (Massdrop x NuForce EDC) for a few minutes - everything sounded good, and I didn't detect any noise/hiss at the levels at which I listen (pretty low levels, though).
> 
> As far as tubes go, why not give the tube that comes with it a try for a while?  That way you'll have a baseline reference prior to trying something else.  Once you've gotten a feel for them, there are lots of tubes to try.  Some good ones for around $15 each!
> 
> ...



Thanks for the detailed tube descriptions, I've got some reading to do. I will try out the stock tube but my tinkering side will force me to order a couple of cheaper ones to try tube rolling out. I'm most intrigued by being able to change sonic characteristics so easily just by swapping out a piece of glass. Thank you, I'm sure I'll have more questions soon.


----------



## scotvl

winders said:


> I would not use the Vali 2 as a preamp in a normal 2 channel setup. It works fine with my powered monitors at my desk.
> 
> I would would bu the WE396A/2C51 tubes on ebay. $100 per pair/$50 single is the most I would pay. Adapters are hard to get in a timely manner so I would be buying one of those now.




Thanks my system was built for home theatre when I put it together a few years ago and it's not what I would put together for 2 Channel. I just wanted to try to see if I could change up the sound on the odd day I get the living room to myself so I would take the Vali 2 out when I'm done.   Maybe I should be looking more at the Lyre 2 or valhalla 2 but then I have to buy more tubes to roll.


----------



## Mr Trev

winders said:


> Rubbish. Quality tubes make a difference. The quality tubes I would use from the 6922 family cost a lot more than the same to better quality tubes in the 5670 family. That's why I recommend getting the 5670 to 6922 adapter and WE396A tubes. That should cost well under $100.



I never meant to imply that quality tubes don't make a difference, just that I don't exactly know how much "quality" I should be willing to pay for. And how much of that quality will even show through with the Vali

I do have an adapter and this tube: http://dbtubes.com/en/general-electric-vacuum-tube/5670wa-3-mica-black-plate.html. Its OK I guess. Nothing really jumped out to me and I had other tubes to check out so I didn't spend a huge amount of time with it - yet. I have read the hype (not meant in a bad way) about the 5670/396a tubes on the Lyr thread, so I'm not going to dismiss them completely

I just got a TS 6sn7 mouse ear today - got it cheap on auction (Zenith branded with crack in the base, but I'm not hung up on those things). I'll see how this goes…


----------



## bcowen (Feb 15, 2018)

Mr Trev said:


> I never meant to imply that quality tubes don't make a difference, just that I don't exactly know how much "quality" I should be willing to pay for. And how much of that quality will even show through with the Vali
> 
> I do have an adapter and this tube: http://dbtubes.com/en/general-electric-vacuum-tube/5670wa-3-mica-black-plate.html. Its OK I guess. Nothing really jumped out to me and I had other tubes to check out so I didn't spend a huge amount of time with it - yet. I have read the hype (not meant in a bad way) about the 5670/396a tubes on the Lyr thread, so I'm not going to dismiss them completely
> 
> I just got a TS 6sn7 mouse ear today - got it cheap on auction (Zenith branded with crack in the base, but I'm not hung up on those things). I'll see how this goes…



I've never had a GE 5670 (or variant), so take this with a gargantuan grain of salt, but I have yet to hear a GE tube I could stand, from 12AX/U/T7's to 6SN/L7's, to 6CG7's to 845's, to...well, I've had a lot of different types over the years.  If not bland and uninvolving, they're screechy and irritating.  Point being that the GE may not be the best representative of the 396A/5670/2C51/6N3PE family.  Probably why they're so cheap....nobody else likes them either.    Hope I get some time this weekend to try out my long awaited 396 adapter.  I have WE 396A's, Sylvania 2C51's, RCA 5670's, and Reflektor (Russian) 6N3PE's to play with, and I'll share what I hear for whatever it's worth.  The 6N3PE's are dirt cheap (but take a while in shipping from Putin-ville), and the Sylvanias can still be had for a decent price ($25- $30).  The RCA's are pricier, but still a bit less than the WE's.

Be very interested in your thoughts on the Tung-Sol.  My 6SN7 adapter just arrived today.


----------



## bcowen

roshambo said:


> 6CG7 plugged straight in just fine. Not using any adapters or socket savers.



Thanks!


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> From what I remember the 6cg7 has the same pinout as the 6dj8 so no adapter required. Of course you could use a socket saver too… just cause.
> A decent 6cg7 is still on my shopping list… Lemme know what sounds good



The RCA clear top (side getter) with black plates has been one of my favorites in the big rig, and preferred (by me) over Sylvanias, Tung-Sols, and even pricier Amperex's.  The RCA chrome-dome (top getter) not so much...clear top is clearly mo' better.   They're in the $10 - $15 range on Ebay...not sure what the good tube vendors are charging these days. Obviously I haven't listened to any of them in the Vali yet...


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> The RCA clear top (side getter) with black plates has been one of my favorites in the big rig, and preferred (by me) over Sylvanias, Tung-Sols, and even pricier Amperex's.  The RCA chrome-dome (top getter) not so much...clear top is clearly mo' better.   They're in the $10 - $15 range on Ebay...not sure what the good tube vendors are charging these days. Obviously I haven't listened to any of them in the Vali yet...



You're not the first to mention the RCA cleartop. Even the 12au7 variety gets some good press. Another fellow I chatted with recommended a triple mica Tung-Sol. 



bcowen said:


> I've never had a GE 5670 (or variant), so take this with a gargantuan grain of salt, but I have yet to hear a GE tube I could stand, from 12AX/U/T7's to 6SN/L7's, to 6CG7's to 845's, to...well, I've had a lot of different types over the years.  If not bland and uninvolving, they're screechy and irritating.  Point being that the GE may not be the best representative of the 396A/5670/2C51/6N3PE family.  Probably why they're so cheap....nobody else likes them either.    Hope I get some time this weekend to try out my long awaited 396 adapter.  I have WE 396A's, Sylvania 2C51's, RCA 5670's, and Reflektor (Russian) 6N3PE's to play with, and I'll share what I hear for whatever it's worth.  The 6N3PE's are dirt cheap (but take a while in shipping from Putin-ville), and the Sylvanias can still be had for a decent price ($25- $30).  The RCA's are pricier, but still a bit less than the WE's.
> 
> Be very interested in your thoughts on the Tung-Sol.  My 6SN7 adapter just arrived today.



My initial impressions of the 5670 I bought was it seemed to be on the brighter side as well as a more forward presentation from what I was used to. It seemed to mellow a bit after a few days. I don't know whether that would be contributed to tube or brain burn-in.
I did order a Reflector 6n3p-e (along with a Foton 6h8n - whatever the Soviet version of the 6sn7 is). I was supposed to get them close to a month ago. Supposed being the key word. Not sure what happened there, but the seller did refund my purchase so no harm done (actually considering the tubes only cost me $8 total, I would've rather had the tubes than a refund)

The Tung Sol is playing well so far even though it isn't the most elegant looking setup in the world - two stacked adapters, tube sitting way up in the air. It doesn't do the same "make my headphones disappear" magic act as the Yugo-funken, but I can't really complain about what I'm hearing so far (esp. since I got the tube for only $10 + shipping).
If the whole 6sn7 thing does play out I'm thinking about making a new lid for the Vali so I can get away with just one adapter - probably buy one of those lower profile adapters too


----------



## bcowen

Got started today with the WE 396A.  Should've done that one last, because the RCA 5670 and Sylvania 2C51 aren't as good.  I'll have to say that the WE 396A bests the Telefunken 6DJ8, although the differences are not night and day and more in the area of subtleties.  Then I decided to stick in the 6SN7 adapter with a CBS/Hytron 5692.  OMG.  I normally have the Loki set with the bass control at 3:00 and the far right treble at 11:00.  With the Hytron, the bass control is now at 11:00, and the treble at 1:00.  Translated for the Loki-less: this tube whomps out the bass like a 70's disco club, but is a little closed-in up top.  With the "corrections" that can be made with the Loki, this tube into the Alpha Primes is spectacular with dynamics I didn't think the Primes were capable of, and a much wider, more delineated soundstage.  Midrange is touchy-feely with the harmonic detail and depth that is important to me (and primarily why I fuss with tubes).  Note that my evaluations here are very preliminary -  each tube was warmed up for about 15 minutes, and then listened to for about an hour. As all these are NOS, I'm obviously far short of even a minimal amount of break-in time, and even further short of long-term listening to determine if the initial attraction holds up or is more like the girl at the bar that's drop-dead gorgeous....until she opens her mouth.  But since I'm stoked with what I hear now, I rummaged through the stash and pulled out a Ken-Rad 6SN7GT, Raytheon VT-231, RCA 6SN7GTB, Philips 6SN7GTB, and a Hitachi 6SN7GTB to play with.  Pulled an RCA clear-top 6CG7 while I was at it, and then remembered I forgot to try the Reflektor 6N3PE with the 5670 adapter, so gotta give them a whirl next.  So much work to do.   

Yeah, the adapter stack looks kinda stoopid, but my ears can't see it.


----------



## volly

@bcowen - I love rolling in the octals, they have excellent air and presence about them. Soundstage and instruments are more resolving. 

Let us know what you think of the Kenrad, it's got a good reputation for solid bass end.


----------



## volly

Mr Trev said:


> I never meant to imply that quality tubes don't make a difference, just that I don't exactly know how much "quality" I should be willing to pay for. And how much of that quality will even show through with the Vali
> 
> I do have an adapter and this tube: http://dbtubes.com/en/general-electric-vacuum-tube/5670wa-3-mica-black-plate.html. Its OK I guess. Nothing really jumped out to me and I had other tubes to check out so I didn't spend a huge amount of time with it - yet. I have read the hype (not meant in a bad way) about the 5670/396a tubes on the Lyr thread, so I'm not going to dismiss them completely
> 
> I just got a TS 6sn7 mouse ear today - got it cheap on auction (Zenith branded with crack in the base, but I'm not hung up on those things). I'll see how this goes…



Keep us update on the mouse ear's mate!


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Got started today with the WE 396A.  Should've done that one last, because the RCA 5670 and Sylvania 2C51 aren't as good.  I'll have to say that the WE 396A bests the Telefunken 6DJ8, although the differences are not night and day and more in the area of subtleties.  Then I decided to stick in the 6SN7 adapter with a CBS/Hytron 5692.  OMG.  I normally have the Loki set with the bass control at 3:00 and the far right treble at 11:00.  With the Hytron, the bass control is now at 11:00, and the treble at 1:00.  Translated for the Loki-less: this tube whomps out the bass like a 70's disco club, but is a little closed-in up top.  With the "corrections" that can be made with the Loki, this tube into the Alpha Primes is spectacular with dynamics I didn't think the Primes were capable of, and a much wider, more delineated soundstage.  Midrange is touchy-feely with the harmonic detail and depth that is important to me (and primarily why I fuss with tubes).  Note that my evaluations here are very preliminary -  each tube was warmed up for about 15 minutes, and then listened to for about an hour. As all these are NOS, I'm obviously far short of even a minimal amount of break-in time, and even further short of long-term listening to determine if the initial attraction holds up or is more like the girl at the bar that's drop-dead gorgeous....until she opens her mouth.  But since I'm stoked with what I hear now, I rummaged through the stash and pulled out a Ken-Rad 6SN7GT, Raytheon VT-231, RCA 6SN7GTB, Philips 6SN7GTB, and a Hitachi 6SN7GTB to play with.  Pulled an RCA clear-top 6CG7 while I was at it, and then remembered I forgot to try the Reflektor 6N3PE with the 5670 adapter, so gotta give them a whirl next.  So much work to do.
> 
> Yeah, the adapter stack looks kinda stoopid, but my ears can't see it.



Jeez, your adapters are tiny compared to what I have. My 6sn7 adapter has the socket on top of the brass ring. I really need to look into one of those G1217 adapters…

Good thing you brought up those Reflektors. That seemed to be the kick in the butt the shipping gods needed to get mine finally delivered. Happy to hear it wasn't nearly as in your face as the GE5670. BIgger than I thought too, I had to double check and make sure I hadn't been shipped a 6n23 by mistake.

My critical listening skills and descriptional-bility of such aren't the best (about as good as my making up words) but the mouse ear is turning out pretty good. It does have a more forward presentation than the Yugo-funken, but is much better controlled bass-wise and has wider, more precise imaging. Listening to some sludgey-doom metal today with my X2. Usually they can be overly sludgey with this type of music, but the TS has an appropriate amount of heft without the bass overunning everything else - any more than its supposed to, anyhow


----------



## musicfan145

scotvl said:


> I posted this in the official Vali 2 thread but this one seems to be where you guys are hanging out so I'll ask here and maybe get some tube rolling recommendations while I'm at it.
> 
> I'm thinking of picking up the vali 2 to primarily use on my night stand for listening before bed with IEMs and I want to try it out as a preamp for my home system to try to mellow out my Polk RTI A9s once in a while for 2 channel listening. I was wondering if anyone here has tried using the vali 2 as a preamp and what you thought about it. Also what would be a good tube for a 16 ohm dynamic driver IEM with low noise lush mids and good sound stage and what would be a good tube to try in the Vali 2 as a preamp to try and warm up my Polk RTI A9s in my home theatre rig for 2 Channel listening. Thanks



If you search for “DC” in the main Vali 2 thread, there are definitely some posts that cause concern for using the Vali 2 as a preamp in a speaker rig. 

If you do decide to use it that way, the good news is that most of the really expensive tubes have more air/extension/detail/resolve/etc.: That is, they have more output in the high frequencies. You’re wanting the opposite, so you can stick with cheaper tubes! 

Since your system is bi-amped, you might also look for a way to simply reduce the gain on the tweeter amp channels.


----------



## scotvl

musicfan145 said:


> If you search for “DC” in the main Vali 2 thread, there are definitely some posts that cause concern for using the Vali 2 as a preamp in a speaker rig.
> 
> If you do decide to use it that way, the good news is that most of the really expensive tubes have more air/extension/detail/resolve/etc.: That is, they have more output in the high frequencies. You’re wanting the opposite, so you can stick with cheaper tubes!
> 
> Since your system is bi-amped, you might also look for a way to simply reduce the gain on the tweeter amp channels.


----------



## RustyPitchfork

So I have been staying off this thread so I could just swap tubes and try not to be swayed one way or the other, but I am now ready to report my findings. First lets get some of the technical out of the way. Headphones - Monoprice M1060’s (gen 2 - unmodified 50+ hours of breakin) and E-Mu Wood Series (Teak and Ebony cups 40ish hours). Both headphones are run off custom Impact Audio Cables. All music is FLAC from a Plex Server though an iOS Device AirPlayed to an Airport Express optical out to Modi 2 Multibit, Schiit Pyst RCA Cables to Vali 2.

Stock tube - Taiwan R.O.C. - I’m so happy I started with this tube. It’s the most bland tube. It really made the Vali 2 sound flat and unexciting, but is a fantastic reference point. And I usually start there before I plug in a new tube. 

*5670/396A*
GE JAN-5670 - This tube, while better than the stock, is also fairly bland. It has a bigger sound stage, but is fairly flat for imaging and lacks the warmth or crispness of other tubes. 

Western Electric 396A - This tube is fantastic. It adds the warmth and sound stage I was hoping for. It really rounds out the treble where other tubes can make highs more pronounced. I understand why it’s a cult favorite around the forums. Not quite the same imaging as the Philips tubes below. 

*E88CC/ECC88/E188CC
*
Tesla E88CC (Gold Pins, Aug 1972) - This might be one of my favorite tubes. It’s got a similar sound profile as the 396A but more lively. It’s my go-to tube for listening to anything Rock and Roll on my M1060s. Sound stage is huge and has great imaging. Lots of warmth, makes for super smooth highs.

RTC ECC88 (Made at the Philips Heerlen Plant) - Clean and crisp. Is more punchy in the high end, but adds warmth to mids, and keeps lows unmuddled. Again, has huge sound stage and great imaging. A great example of why Philips tubes are a standard. 

Philips E188CC (Gold pins, Nov 1968 - Made at the La Radiotechnique, Suresnes France) - Otherworldly sound stage and imaging, but the punch at the high end is so huge, depending on the tracks, can be unlistenable with the M1060s. The E-Mu’s love this tube. This is also my go-to tube for jazz, just have to be careful with the highs. I wonder if this tube needs some break in time to smooth out the high end.


----------



## bcowen

RustyPitchfork said:


> So I have been staying off this thread so I could just swap tubes and try not to be swayed one way or the other, but I am now ready to report my findings. First lets get some of the technical out of the way. Headphones - Monoprice M1060’s (gen 2 - unmodified 50+ hours of breakin) and E-Mu Wood Series (Teak and Ebony cups 40ish hours). Both headphones are run off custom Impact Audio Cables. All music is FLAC from a Plex Server though an iOS Device AirPlayed to an Airport Express optical out to Modi 2 Multibit, Schiit Pyst RCA Cables to Vali 2.
> 
> Stock tube - Taiwan R.O.C. - I’m so happy I started with this tube. It’s the most bland tube. It really made the Vali 2 sound flat and unexciting, but is a fantastic reference point. And I usually start there before I plug in a new tube.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing your impressions!  Don't have any Philips or RTC's in the stash, but have some Teslas with an IH code, which if my info is correct would be August 1982.  Have to give one a whirl.  Just ordered a 1964 Tesla 6CC42 (396A variant).  The genuine Teslas (pre-JJ) are awesome tubes as a general rule, so we'll see if that carries through with the 6CC42.  What I really need is for someone to slap some sense into me, 'cause I'm enjoying this 5692 so much I need to just stop.


----------



## volly




----------



## bcowen

volly said:


>



ROFL!


----------



## RustyPitchfork

bcowen said:


> Thanks for sharing your impressions!  Don't have any Philips or RTC's in the stash, but have some Teslas with an IH code, which if my info is correct would be August 1982.  Have to give one a whirl.  Just ordered a 1964 Tesla 6CC42 (396A variant).  The genuine Teslas (pre-JJ) are awesome tubes as a general rule, so we'll see if that carries through with the 6CC42.  What I really need is for someone to slap some sense into me, 'cause I'm enjoying this 5692 so much I need to just stop.



Keep on rolling.


----------



## swmtnbiker

I just rolled a Tesla E88CC 6922 NOS Gold Pin 1970's vintage into my Vali2 and MAN, what a difference! Much better detail and soundstage than either the stock tube or the EH I picked up for $20 on Amazon. Lovin' it.


----------



## luckybaer

swmtnbiker said:


> I just rolled a Tesla E88CC 6922 NOS Gold Pin 1970's vintage into my Vali2 and MAN, what a difference! Much better detail and soundstage than either the stock tube or the EH I picked up for $20 on Amazon. Lovin' it.


I went from stock tube to $20 tubes like EH 6922 and noticed a difference.  I then stepped up to $30-$40 like Philips 7DJ8 or Matsushita, and noticed a worthwhile improvement.  I’m curious... when will I hit diminishing returns?  Haha...


----------



## swmtnbiker

I used to own a Bottlehead Crack, so trust me when I say it can go on, and on, and ON.


----------



## Lekoguy

I have a basic, and most likely very dumb, question.

When burning in a new tube, is it necessary to be running a signal through the amp?  Will letting it "idle" for some time serve the same purpose?

Thanks gang.


----------



## hardpike (Feb 21, 2018)

So far I have rolled:

Matsush*** PCC88
Philips PCC88
Siemens A frame E88CC
Voskhod  Rocket 1993
Reflector 1972 siver
EH 6922

The NOS Russians are miles and miles and miles away from the others. In my system.
In fact, so far away that is scary....


----------



## Mr Trev

Lekoguy said:


> I have a basic, and most likely very dumb, question.
> 
> When burning in a new tube, is it necessary to be running a signal through the amp?  Will letting it "idle" for some time serve the same purpose?
> 
> Thanks gang.



According to the sheet I got from Brent Jesse with my last tube, they recommend burning in a tube by leaving it powered up in the amp - no signal - for 24-48 hours. Or they also say you could just listen for a few hours every day and the tube will be burned (burnt?) in within a couple of weeks. Your choice, I guess…


----------



## Lekoguy

Mr Trev said:


> According to the sheet I got from Brent Jesse with my last tube, they recommend burning in a tube by leaving it powered up in the amp - no signal - for 24-48 hours. Or they also say you could just listen for a few hours every day and the tube will be burned (burnt?) in within a couple of weeks. Your choice, I guess…



Thanks! 

I'm pleased to know that letting a tube bake when I'm not enheadsetted will be helpful.


----------



## bcowen

swmtnbiker said:


> I used to own a Bottlehead Crack, so trust me when I say it can go on, and on, and ON.



It may be time to start a support group:  Rollers Anonymous.  
Wait....on second thought, that may attract people with a different addiction.


----------



## volly

hardpike said:


> So far I have rolled:
> 
> Matsush*** PCC88
> Philips PCC88
> ...


If you get the chance, try the 6sN7 Russian equivalent (6H8C)! Phenomenal tube in my opinion!


----------



## raf1919

I just got vali2 and wanted to order a tube or two to try my first run at tube rolling.

on tube depot it gives several options with no explanation what they are for or if needed. can someone with more knowledge tell me which of these add ons are needed with vali2? i know they sell tubes for instruments so just want to make sure i get the right one for me. Thank you.

High Gain
Matching
Balanced triodes
Macthed+ Balanced triodes
Low noise and microphonic


----------



## bcowen

raf1919 said:


> I just got vali2 and wanted to order a tube or two to try my first run at tube rolling.
> 
> on tube depot it gives several options with no explanation what they are for or if needed. can someone with more knowledge tell me which of these add ons are needed with vali2? i know they sell tubes for instruments so just want to make sure i get the right one for me. Thank you.
> 
> ...



High Gain: typically when the tube has a higher gM (transconductance) than the norm for a new tube. Not needed for the Vali.
Matching: refers to two or more tubes used together in a component. As the Vali just has one tube, not applicable.
Balanced triodes: for a tube with two internal triodes, such as the tube we use in the Vali.  As the Vali uses one triode in the tube for the left channel and the other for the right, having balanced triodes is very important if not imperative for the Vali.  Add this option.
Matched + Balanced: the two above together. As there's only one tube in the Vali, again not applicable.
Low Noise/microphonics: this is an "it depends" kind of thing. Very important for phono stages, and while there can certainly be some benefit to a "low noise" tube for the Vali, it all depends on what the additional cost is. Microphonics are not really an issue for the Vali if being used with headphones, as it's (generally speaking) external vibrations/sound waves that cause the microphonics to become audible, and that's usually caused by loudspeakers rather than headphones.  I'm painting this issue with a very broad brush as there's a lot more involved, but for the Vali, I may spend an extra couple dollars for a low noise tube, but if the additional premium is a lot more than that I wouldn't....personally.

Hope this helps a little....


----------



## chef8489

With all the tubes I have tried and I have tried a lot including trying 3 different adapters, I keep going back to the 70 era Reflector 6n3p-e


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> With all the tubes I have tried and I have tried a lot including trying 3 different adapters, I keep going back to the 70 era Reflector 6n3p-e



With an avatar like yours, I knew your comments were worthy of attention.   I gave a Voshkod/Reflector 6N3P-E a try last night, and was quite frankly surprised at how good it is.  Perhaps it's the intellectual disconnect equating inexpensive with good, but I wasn't expecting it.  I still haven't found anything (yet) that sounds better in my rig to my ears than the Hytron 5692, but out of the 20 or so tubes I've tried so far, the Voshkod leapfrogs some rather pricey NOS contenders into 3rd place (with 2nd place going to the Telefunken 6DJ8).  When you consider the Voshkods can still be had for a bit over $1 a tube in small quantities (including shipping), their price/performance ratio is off the charts.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N3P-E-6-3...088221?hash=item1a44e638dd:g:5VwAAOSwtfhYnzMq

Go 'Heels!!


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> With an avatar like yours, I knew your comments were worthy of attention.   I gave a Voshkod/Reflector 6N3P-E a try last night, and was quite frankly surprised at how good it is.  Perhaps it's the intellectual disconnect equating inexpensive with good, but I wasn't expecting it.  I still haven't found anything (yet) that sounds better in my rig to my ears than the Hytron 5692, but out of the 20 or so tubes I've tried so far, the Voshkod leapfrogs some rather pricey NOS contenders into 3rd place (with 2nd place going to the Telefunken 6DJ8).  When you consider the Voshkods can still be had for a bit over $1 a tube in small quantities (including shipping), their price/performance ratio is off the charts.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N3P-E-6-3...088221?hash=item1a44e638dd:g:5VwAAOSwtfhYnzMq
> 
> Go 'Heels!!


Yes, if you buy them in smaller quantities in 2, 4, and 8 they are around 2.00 a tube including shipping and with the adapter it is worth it. The detail and warmth in bass as well as the extension in the highs it gives. It is an extremely hard tube to beat.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> With an avatar like yours, I knew your comments were worthy of attention.   I gave a Voshkod/Reflector 6N3P-E a try last night, and was quite frankly surprised at how good it is.  Perhaps it's the intellectual disconnect equating inexpensive with good, but I wasn't expecting it.  I still haven't found anything (yet) that sounds better in my rig to my ears than the Hytron 5692, but out of the 20 or so tubes I've tried so far, the Voshkod leapfrogs some rather pricey NOS contenders into 3rd place (with 2nd place going to the Telefunken 6DJ8).  When you consider the Voshkods can still be had for a bit over $1 a tube in small quantities (including shipping), their price/performance ratio is off the charts.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N3P-E-6-3...088221?hash=item1a44e638dd:g:5VwAAOSwtfhYnzMq
> 
> Go 'Heels!!





chef8489 said:


> With all the tubes I have tried and I have tried a lot including trying 3 different adapters, I keep going back to the 70 era Reflector 6n3p-e



Plugged mine in a few days ago. I dunno… I find the mid-range is kind of awash with a staticky sound. Some would claim that it doesn't make a difference with metal - it all sounds like that, but it just felt too thin with no bite to me. Could just be the tube needs more break in time though


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Plugged mine in a few days ago. I dunno… I find the mid-range is kind of awash with a staticky sound. Some would claim that it doesn't make a difference with metal - it all sounds like that, but it just felt too thin with no bite to me. Could just be the tube needs more break in time though



Definitely give it some more time.  Mine sounded similar when I first plugged it in. Well, didn't have anything that I'd describe as static-ey, but it was definitely lacking any warmth and bloom.  Threadbare, sterile...kinda Audio-Research-ey if you will. I let it play on Tidal for abut 4 hours and listened again, and very nice improvement. Then let it play all night and listened again this morning, and much better again.  The harmonics are there, and the mids have more warmth and tonal color.  The bass was good right at the start, but now has more heft and slam.  And I probably don't even have enough time on mine at this point.  Gonna give it 100 hours before a final verdict.


----------



## Mr Trev

Perhaps "staticky" a bit misleading. I was referring to an slight out of tune FM radio station quality. The electric guitars had more of a white noise-ish quality as opposed to big distortion. It is almost the opposite impression of the GE 5670 I have. I do expect thing to change as time goes on, I probably only have ~20 hrs. max on it so far


----------



## chef8489

Mr Trev said:


> Perhaps "staticky" a bit misleading. I was referring to an slight out of tune FM radio station quality. The electric guitars had more of a white noise-ish quality as opposed to big distortion. It is almost the opposite impression of the GE 5670 I have. I do expect thing to change as time goes on, I probably only have ~20 hrs. max on it so far


What kind of metal are we talking about. I swap between the ge 5670 and find the ge to be thinner and far less fuller on the bass for some reason. Love that the glow is more and would like to compare it more to your music. I am comparing now to everything from Tool to Disturbed, but could use what you are using to get an idea of what you are hearing. I am also using the Audeze Lcd2 classic as my headphones.


----------



## Mr Trev

chef8489 said:


> What kind of metal are we talking about. I swap between the ge 5670 and find the ge to be thinner and far less fuller on the bass for some reason. Love that the glow is more and would like to compare it more to your music. I am comparing now to everything from Tool to Disturbed, but could use what you are using to get an idea of what you are hearing. I am also using the Audeze Lcd2 classic as my headphones.



You know, the usual stuff. Abbath, Immortal, various side projects


----------



## chef8489

Mr Trev said:


> You know, the usual stuff. Abbath, Immortal, various side projects


Lol see that's not normal for me and that's why I asked. Normal for me is like Korn, Godsmack, Karnivool, maybe throw in some Nightwish, Within Temptation, Delinght, and September Mourning.


----------



## RustyPitchfork

For today’s rolling, I am going to talk four (ok... five, ) tubes, two of which you can find in my previous post.

First up is a* RCA ECC189 *(Mullard Blackburn Made). Tested above new benchmarks.This was a $20ish eBay find. Certain types of music the low end is really huge. Particularly on Tool's 46&2. From the first listen is seemed a little narrow and lacking in sound stage. It definitely is not as hot on the high end as the Heerlen Holland made tubes, some nice softening of highs, but I am wondering if it needs some more break-in time, as it just lacks some of the magic of the other tubes I have. Speaking of Heerlen made tubes, how about some *Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8*? I bought these from Brent Jessee a few years back for my Lyr 2. I currently have a Heerlen made set of *Dario ECC88*'s in the Lyr 2. I have to say, these tubes sound good. Again, like the other Heerlen tubes I have they can be a little harsh in the high end on my M1060's. Interestingly enough, compared to my *RTC ECC88 *(A-Frame Heerlen made) they are very close, but there is something that is just a little special about the RTC A-Frame. Just a little more sparkle. Which takes me to the fourth tube, the *Philips E188CC *(French Made)*.* Another step up compared to the two previous tubes, and can be harsh on the highs, but when I compared to the RCA... in particular on 46&2... it just seemed a little thin in the mids. Maybe my ears are playing tricks on me... or maybe now I need a second Vali 2 so I can A/B.


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> Lol see that's not normal for me and that's why I asked. Normal for me is like Korn, Godsmack, Karnivool, maybe throw in some Nightwish, Within Temptation, Delinght, and September Mourning.





You and Mr Trev are making me feel pretty old right about now.  Haven't heard of even one of the bands mentioned.  Of course, I _did _grow up when most of the tubes we're talking about weren't 'NOS', they were just New.


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> You and Mr Trev are making me feel pretty old right about now.  Haven't heard of even one of the bands mentioned.  Of course, I _did _grow up when most of the tubes we're talking about weren't 'NOS', they were just New.


Well i do listen to Jazz , Blues, and Classical far more than i listen to this music. It was not really till high school in the mid 90s that i kistened to anything other than classical. My family listened to other music as i grew up, but my choice was classical.


----------



## volly

I'm in to these guys at the moment. Bifrost\Vali2\6H8C....spooky! :O


----------



## Mr Trev (Feb 24, 2018)

chef8489 said:


> Lol see that's not normal for me and that's why I asked. Normal for me is like Korn, Godsmack, Karnivool, maybe throw in some Nightwish, Within Temptation, Delinght, and September Mourning.





bcowen said:


> You and Mr Trev are making me feel pretty old right about now.  Haven't heard of even one of the bands mentioned.  Of course, I _did _grow up when most of the tubes we're talking about weren't 'NOS', they were just New.



Sometimes I need some black metal to balance out the ambient I listen to Speaking of ambient, I'll still have to say the Yugo-funken is tops for that genre

Hey, Sigur Ros. Haven't listened them for quite a while. What 6H8C you running? I picked up a late '50s Foton with my 6n3p-e. I haven't listened to it yet, but it does have a very similar construction to my Mouse Ear - T plates, mica spacers in the top corners.


----------



## volly

Just these ones: https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/early-russian-6h8c-6sn7

I grabbed two awhile ago from a seller who was local all NOS. Very tempted to take a 'risk' on a metal base 1578 Melz, can get one for a decent price, tests ok but you never know!


----------



## IPA-60-IBU

Real 15 78 and 15 79  tubes have 2 pairs of curcular metal stabilising bars. My 15 79s were made in Saratov (reflector) and have carbolite bases. They are great, matched (2.21 and 2.21ma, 2.10, 2.11)ma); however, they only have 50 hours of guaranteed work life. Mine has around 1k hours in vali2 with no signs of wear.


----------



## volly

@IPA-60-IBU - Thanks for that mate! May pull the trigger!


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> @IPA-60-IBU - Thanks for that mate! May pull the trigger!



I guess we should be happy we're using 6SN7's instead of 6SL7's.


----------



## volly

Phooking struth mate!


----------



## IPA-60-IBU

Please don't buy fakes. Here is a reference photo: 6n8s, 15 79 reflector, 6n9s reflector square getter. 6n9s square getter sound similar to 15 79.
If you can read and solder consider other options than 6dj8, for example, 6n16GVIR (black 6n1p for reference)


----------



## bcowen

IPA-60-IBU said:


> Please don't buy fakes. Here is a reference photo: 6n8s, 15 79 reflector, 6n9s reflector square getter. 6n9s square getter sound similar to 15 79.
> If you can read and solder consider other options than 6dj8, for example, 6n16GVIR (black 6n1p for reference)



Many thanks for the reference photos!

_If you can read and solder consider other options than 6dj8, for example, 6n16GVIR (black 6n1p for reference)_

Now that's a _really_ interesting idea.  Buy some extra adapters and solder to the adapter, leaving the Vali untouched.  I can solder....reading might be a stretch though. 

Do you, by chance, have a cross reference list (or website) that would show the compatible flying lead tubes?


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> Phooking struth mate!



Giving the Ken-Rad VT-231 a run for its' money today.  After 30 minutes of warm-up, first listen indicates a huge, nicely layered soundstage.  But it's rather harsh and fatiguing right now, so more to come after it gets 25 - 30 hours of play time.


----------



## Mr Trev

volly said:


> Just these ones: https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/early-russian-6h8c-6sn7
> 
> I grabbed two awhile ago from a seller who was local all NOS. Very tempted to take a 'risk' on a metal base 1578 Melz, can get one for a decent price, tests ok but you never know!




Looks identical to the Foton I bought. I only paid $6 however… did have to wait ~1month to get it



bcowen said:


> Giving the Ken-Rad VT-231 a run for its' money today.  After 30 minutes of warm-up, first listen indicates a huge, nicely layered soundstage.  But it's rather harsh and fatiguing right now, so more to come after it gets 25 - 30 hours of play time.



You run your Vali in low gain? Do you find there's any difference in sound? Can't say I've noticed a big change. The measurements seem to imply there should be an audible change. Low gain having negative feedback lowers distortion and theoretically lessens the impact of the tube on the overall signature. At least that's what I've gathered


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Looks identical to the Foton I bought. I only paid $6 however… did have to wait ~1month to get it
> 
> 
> 
> You run your Vali in low gain? Do you find there's any difference in sound? Can't say I've noticed a big change. The measurements seem to imply there should be an audible change. Low gain having negative feedback lowers distortion and theoretically lessens the impact of the tube on the overall signature. At least that's what I've gathered



99% of the time I'm in low gain. If I really want to accelerate my hearing loss, I'll go to high gain for things like the aforementioned Yes tracks that seem to be recorded at a lower level and need the extra bump. But I didn't even know about the feedback thing - I was using low gain more for the impedance match.  Using the standard rule of thumb of at least 8X the amp's output impedance to the headphone's impedance, my Alpha Primes (45-47 ohm impedance depending on where you look) are right on the edge with the high gain output impedance of 5.8 ohms. I'm probably being ridiculous in even considering it as close as it is, but then I've been an audio nerd for too long to change my approach now.   I can't say I've heard much difference between the two settings, but I haven't done any meaningful tests either.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> 99% of the time I'm in low gain. If I really want to accelerate my hearing loss, I'll go to high gain for things like the aforementioned Yes tracks that seem to be recorded at a lower level and need the extra bump. But I didn't even know about the feedback thing - I was using low gain more for the impedance match.  Using the standard rule of thumb of at least 8X the amp's output impedance to the headphone's impedance, my Alpha Primes (45-47 ohm impedance depending on where you look) are right on the edge with the high gain output impedance of 5.8 ohms. I'm probably being ridiculous in even considering it as close as it is, but then I've been an audio nerd for too long to change my approach now.   I can't say I've heard much difference between the two settings, but I haven't done any meaningful tests either.



I decided to just play it on the safe side and drink the Kool-aid. Been running high gain with the volume never higher than 9 oclock


----------



## volly

Lately, I've just been too lazy to 'flick the switch'. Heck I've even been running the HD600's in low gain, yeah I gotta crank it on the volume knob but it's no prob. 

Some Tubes are pesky though and the noise floor isn't as black but that's the price you pay I guess!


----------



## luckybaer

I'm in high gain for:  HD650, DT880, K601

I'm in low gain for:  AH-D2000, TX-X00, SR-80e

Goes high/low depending on who knows?  DT770/80, M220

Am I doing anything incorrectly?


----------



## volly

As long as you're enjoying the music luckybaer!


----------



## bcowen (Feb 25, 2018)

luckybaer said:


> I'm in high gain for:  HD650, DT880, K601
> 
> I'm in low gain for:  AH-D2000, TX-X00, SR-80e
> 
> ...



There's several things interacting here:  the cans, the tube, how loud you want it, and (ultimately) what sounds good to you. I think the only way to do it wrong is if one setting sounds better than the other...and you don't use that setting.


----------



## luckybaer

Haha... I just do whatever sounds good.  For example, I just put in a pretty compressed-sounding and relatively hot CD.  I had to drop the gain down to low, and set the volume knob to about 9:30 on the Vali 2 + DT880 combo.  Good grief!!


----------



## luckybaer

I have a Mullard Master Series 10M ECC88/6DJ8 coming sometime later this week and a Tungsram E88CC 6922 already at home on my desk waiting to be tried out.  I MAY buy a new production Genalex Gold Lion, but if I don't, I'm pretty much done with buying tubes for a while (going to save up for a big rig, as I'm pretty happy with my little desktop setup).  So... my tube inventory will consist of:

6BZ7 [Canada] - came with the Vali 2
JJ E88CC/6922 - steel pin version
EH 6922 - steel pin version
Matsu$h!ta/National PCC/7DJ8
Philips PCC88/7DJ8
Tungsram E88CC 6922
Mullard MS 10M ECC88/6DJ8

Just got new pads on my favorite headphone [DT880/250 ohm], so it is time to do a lot of listening!


----------



## RustyPitchfork

luckybaer said:


> I have a Mullard Master Series 10M ECC88/6DJ8 coming sometime later this week



You win that one off eBay last night?


----------



## RustyPitchfork

I was going to wait to say anything, but I bought a second Vali 2 yesterday and all fo the accouterment to go USB in to Modi > Split between Vali A and Vali B > out to A/B switch to headphones. Should be all setup middle end of week.


----------



## luckybaer

RustyPitchfork said:


> You win that one off eBay last night?



Yes.  Not sure what I was thinking, but yolo...


----------



## RustyPitchfork

luckybaer said:


> Yes.  Not sure what I was thinking, but yolo...



I think that would be one of the few 6DJ8's from Mullard you would want to pay that much for, but I bet it's worth it.


----------



## RustyPitchfork

RustyPitchfork said:


> I think that would be one of the few 6DJ8's from Mullard you would want to pay that much for, but I bet it's worth it.


 I take that back... those look like Brent Jessee was selling them for $110 a piece.


----------



## Mr Trev

Doing some listening with iems on the Reflektor 6n3p-e. Impressive.Makes the iems sound far bigger and more expansive than you'd think they have any right to. Only downside is low gain is mandatory due to a low hum/buzzing noise from the tube.
That probably speaks to how well the Vali is suited to driving iems period. All the tubes I've tried so far sound damn fine through iems. Much better than my portable amps


----------



## volly

Welp, my 5670 to e88cc adapter arrived today annnnnnnnnnndddd...it's a dud. Whatever the heck they were smoking...the tube no fit mate....arghhhh anyways. 

Rolled in the Dual  73's Voshod 6ZH1P-EV  for a listening session, take my mind off adapters/eBay haha.  


 

Roll on!


----------



## Mr Trev

volly said:


> Welp, my 5670 to e88cc adapter arrived today annnnnnnnnnndddd...it's a dud. Whatever the heck they were smoking...the tube no fit mate....arghhhh anyways.
> 
> Rolled in the Dual  73's Voshod 6ZH1P-EV  for a listening session, take my mind off adapters/eBay haha.
> 
> ...



Tube don't fit??? You mean the tube won't plug into the socket or the adapter doesn't fit the Vali? Either way, that sucks.

What on earth do you have plugged into your poor Vali? A connector that size can't be good for the jack


----------



## luckybaer

volly said:


> Welp, my 5670 to e88cc adapter arrived today annnnnnnnnnndddd...it's a dud. Whatever the heck they were smoking...the tube no fit mate....arghhhh anyways.
> 
> Rolled in the Dual  73's Voshod 6ZH1P-EV  for a listening session, take my mind off adapters/eBay haha.
> 
> ...


That may be against the law in some northeastern states.


----------



## luckybaer

RustyPitchfork said:


> I take that back... those look like Brent Jessee was selling them for $110 a piece.


Guess I got lucky - can't wait to give 'em a go.  [crosses fingers]


----------



## luckybaer

luckybaer said:


> I have a Mullard Master Series 10M ECC88/6DJ8 coming sometime later this week and a Tungsram E88CC 6922 already at home on my desk waiting to be tried out.  I MAY buy a new production Genalex Gold Lion, but if I don't, I'm pretty much done with buying tubes for a while (going to save up for a big rig, as I'm pretty happy with my little desktop setup).  So... my tube inventory will consist of:
> 
> 6BZ7 [Canada] - came with the Vali 2
> JJ E88CC/6922 - steel pin version
> ...


Did a lot of listening last night to all the tubes listed (except the Mullard).  I'll do a lot more before I draw any "final" conclusions, but I will say that the Philips PCC88/7DJ8 and the Tungsram E88CC 6922 are very impressive.


----------



## volly

Tell us what you think of the Tungsram, I dare say it could be a surprise sleeper tube in your stash!


luckybaer said:


> Did a lot of listening last night to all the tubes listed (except the Mullard).  I'll do a lot more before I draw any "final" conclusions, but I will say that the Philips PCC88/7DJ8 and the Tungsram E88CC 6922 are very impressive.


----------



## volly

Mr Trev said:


> Tube don't fit??? You mean the tube won't plug into the socket or the adapter doesn't fit the Vali? Either way, that sucks.
> 
> What on earth do you have plugged into your poor Vali? A connector that size can't be good for the jack



Haha, that's just me recabled HD600's! Don't worry the Vali 2 can take it, goes all the way in and handles the HD600's amazingly! 
 

As for the adapter issue, I swear they've sent me a 12au7 to e88cc or even a blinkin' 6922 to 6922. Got it off eBay cheap, so I'm not going to follow it up as I CBF to deal with it right now!


----------



## Mr Trev (Feb 27, 2018)

volly said:


> Haha, that's just me recabled HD600's! Don't worry the Vali 2 can take it, goes all the way in and handles the HD600's amazingly!
> 
> 
> As for the adapter issue, I swear they've sent me a 12au7 to e88cc or even a blinkin' 6922 to 6922. Got it off eBay cheap, so I'm not going to follow it up as I CBF to deal with it right now!



Sucks to hear about your adapter issues. If it makes you feel any better, I've had no problems with mine. At least you've got that dually to console you. Somebody tried filling my head with thoughts of getting this adapter: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6...C88-6922-tube-converter-adapter-/201458214762. So far I've been able to resist

Here's a link to a thread about the 5670 adapter I was having issues with (problem with my old amp). It has the pinouts if you wanted to check the wiring yourself.
http://diyah.boards.net/thread/1699/question-5670-e88cc-adapter


----------



## volly

That adapter I would actually love to try, take one for the team @Mr Trev .


----------



## luckybaer

volly said:


> Tell us what you think of the Tungsram, I dare say it could be a surprise sleeper tube in your stash!


Will do.  You may be right.


----------



## bcowen

luckybaer said:


> Will do.  You may be right.



The Tungsram E88CC is my tube of choice in the Cary DAC.  Haven't tried one in the Vali yet.  I'm such a friggin' slacker...


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> That adapter I would actually love to try, take one for the team @Mr Trev .



You guys are completely out of control and should very likely be ashamed of yourselves.

How much is that again?


----------



## luckybaer

bcowen said:


> The Tungsram E88CC is my tube of choice in the Cary DAC.  Haven't tried one in the Vali yet.  I'm such a friggin' slacker...


I wonder how the Tungsram 7DJ8 sounds?  If it is anything like the 6922, it is a steal at almost 1/2 the price of a 6922.


----------



## luckybaer

Warming up the desktop rig right now...


----------



## volly

luckybaer said:


> I wonder how the Tungsram 7DJ8 sounds?  If it is anything like the 6922, it is a steal at almost 1/2 the price of a 6922.


I have the 7Dj8 Tungsram, a superb sounding tube, genuine value for money tube!


----------



## volly

@bcowen - Have you got many matched pair/qaud sets in your pirates booty treasure chest?


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> @bcowen - Have you got many matched pair/qaud sets in your pirates booty treasure chest?



Of the Tungsrams, or just in general?  I have one matched pair of Tungsrams (as backups for the Cary), and a few singles.  Most of the rest of the pile are matched pairs, as all the big rig stuff uses pairs in small signal tubes.  Probably some pairs close enough to make matched quads, although I haven't ever really paid attention to that.


----------



## volly

bcowen said:


> Of the Tungsrams, or just in general?  I have one matched pair of Tungsrams (as backups for the Cary), and a few singles.  Most of the rest of the pile are matched pairs, as all the big rig stuff uses pairs in small signal tubes.  Probably some pairs close enough to make matched quads, although I haven't ever really paid attention to that.


Sorry, just in general. 

Also, how are you finding the Loki? Tube Rollers endgame?


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> Sorry, just in general.
> 
> Also, how are you finding the Loki? Tube Rollers endgame?



I absolutely love the Loki.  It doesn't replace the rolling at all, at least for me.  The tubes are still the foundation of the soundstage and imaging and air and space and get the harmonics in place and serve up the dynamic contrasts and timing and rhythm (and never do run-on sentences)  The Loki (very fortunately) doesn't interfere with any of that, but it doesn't enhance any of it either.  The Loki is more just about frequency balance -- have a bass-shy recording? There's a knob for that.  Treble a little hot?  There's a knob for that.  Midrange recessed or overpowering? Well,there's 2 knobs for that.    As mine is positioned at arms length I can tweak it for every song if I want, but I'm finding that I pretty much leave it set (bass at 2:00 and treble at 11:00) which puts most music through the Alpha's in the sweet spot for my ears.  If I whip out some Mr Trev tunes, then I crank the bass to 5:00 and can feel my fillings rattle.


----------



## Lekoguy

volly said:


> Rolled in the Dual  73's Voshod 6ZH1P-EV  for a listening session, take my mind off adapters/eBay haha.
> 
> 
> 
> Roll on!



Hi Volly,

Your Frankentuber got me so excited that I called for Frau Blucher (neigh).  Do the single triode tubes make an audible difference?  I'd love to hear more of your thoughts and reactions to this crazed creation.

Faithfully,
Igor


----------



## volly

@Lekoguy - Thank you Igor, I'll put some thoughts together and get back to you either here or via a PM. 

I was waiting on a 5670 to e88cc so I could do a comparison between the dual socket but things fell through! 

On a side note, my Vali 2 is paired up with my Modi at the moment, for speakers duty on my desktop. The Vali 2 adds such a nice flavour to the sound. Much more inviting and less harsh.

BBL.


----------



## snafu1 (Mar 1, 2018)

I just got my Vali 2 yesterday. It came with the 6BZ7 (made in Canada). I let it burn in for 12 hours before giving a good test. Overall, I'm very pleased (I'm using it with the Focal Clear).

On a whim I changed the source from my Onkyo DP-X1 to a project I'm working on - a Raspberry Pi running runeaudio. I also have a HiFiBerry Digi+ plugged in as the DAC instead of the Pi's DAC. Wow! was I shocked as to how good it sounded. The HiFiBerry DAC (Burr-Brown) and the Vali 2 really compliment each other nicely.


----------



## luckybaer

volly said:


> Tell us what you think of the Tungsram, I dare say it could be a surprise sleeper tube in your stash!


The Tungsram is very, very nice.  The cream of my tube crop consists of the Tungsram, Philips, and Matsushita.  They are closely (very closely) followed by the JJ and the EH.  The stock tube is well behind.  I'll try and post more details once I do more listening.


----------



## KoshNaranek

snafu1 said:


> I just got my Vali 2 yesterday. It came with the 6BZ7 (made in Canada). I let it burn in for 12 hours before giving a good test. Overall, I'm very pleased (I'm using it with the Focal Clear).
> 
> On a whim I changed the source from my Onkyo DP-X1 to a project I'm working on - a Raspberry Pi running runeaudio. I also have a HiFiBerry Digi+ plugged in as the DAC instead of the Pi's DAC. Wow! was I shocked as to how good it sounded. The HiFiBerry DAC (Burr-Brown) and the Vali 2 really compliment each other nicely.


The HiFiBerry DAC is surprisingly good. I like it better than my PS Audio DL III DAC for High Definition. For Redbook it is a tossup. Pretty good for competing with something 15x its price!


----------



## volly

snafu1 said:


> I just got my Vali 2 yesterday. It came with the 6BZ7 (made in Canada). I let it burn in for 12 hours before giving a good test. Overall, I'm very pleased (I'm using it with the Focal Clear).
> 
> On a whim I changed the source from my Onkyo DP-X1 to a project I'm working on - a Raspberry Pi running runeaudio. I also have a HiFiBerry Digi+ plugged in as the DAC instead of the Pi's DAC. Wow! was I shocked as to how good it sounded. The HiFiBerry DAC (Burr-Brown) and the Vali 2 really compliment each other nicely.



Welcome brother, would love to hear impressions from your Vali 2/Clear setup, also the Raspberry as your source is something I've been toying around with too! I have a Retropie which I'm considering transforming in to a Hfiberry and used as a second silent HTC/Music streamer.

You have gotta get the lads some pics of your setup mate!


----------



## volly

Lekoguy said:


> Hi Volly,
> 
> Your Frankentuber got me so excited that I called for Frau Blucher (neigh).  Do the single triode tubes make an audible difference?  I'd love to hear more of your thoughts and reactions to this crazed creation.
> 
> ...



@Lekoguy - Preface by saying that I was originally going compare a single 6ZH1p to a dual socket 6ZH1p but the adapter I received for the single tube was not the correct one.

My listening impressions were conducted on my HD600 with Schiit Modi/Vali 2 over numerous nights of music-binge sessions. 

Music - 
Jeremy's Aura - Being and Becoming (Electronica, Ambient)
Coldplay - Kaleidoscope (Brit Pop, Rock, Alt)
Michael Kiwanuka - Love and Hate (Soul)
Angus & Julie Stone - Down the Way & Red Berries (Folk)
The Album Leaf - In a safe place (Ambient, Rock)
Ennio Morricone - The complete edition 

Tube type - Voshod 6ZH1P-EV 1973 x 2. (Roughly 50 hours usage time)
Adapter - Dual 6AK5 5654 EF95 TO ECC88 6922 6DJ8 tube converter adapter.

Tube sound characteristics - Seemingly Clean, clear with good to great resolution. A very balanced tube(s). Ample bass impact with good depth but not thunderous than say a Philips or a Telefunken, treble is clear and precise, neutral with a slight warm tint. The midrange is presented nicely, wide but not as deep than say a Telefunken, voices and instruments comes across very clearly but with a hint of tubey sheen to it, it's not liquid but not analytical either. Soundstage and instrument separation is enveloping and airy. Voices stand out among the instruments nicely, guitar riffs and drum beats show up in certain albums wonderfully, you get a good sense of scale to the track you're listening to. As for noise, in low gainmode, I find no noticable hums, squeeks or pops, a very quiet tube. High gain mode, well the noise floor rises to a noticeable level on say a Denon D2000 but no issue with a 300ohm HD600 so ymmv. 

Conclusion time - A great all-round tube! Dynamic and detailed little tube. The mid and high range stand out to me the most but the bass is still very satisfying (similar to a Tungsram). My personal favourites are probably the 6H8C/6Sn7 and my 7Dj8 Telefunken, these are close! Sounds crazy but I prefer these over my Philips-E88CC-SQ (Fricken Gold Pins) heck of a lot cheaper too! <----IMHO. 

Worth a buy, grab a single adapter or go the Frankenstein route for schiits & giggles. You'll most likely buy a pair of these tubes anyway (I have four in my stash lol).

Additional notes - These babies very glow bright! 

“There is something at work in my soul, which I do not understand.” 
― Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley, Frankenstein, or The Modern Prometheus


----------



## snafu1

volly said:


> Welcome brother, would love to hear impressions from your Vali 2/Clear setup, also the Raspberry as your source is something I've been toying around with too! I have a Retropie which I'm considering transforming in to a Hfiberry and used as a second silent HTC/Music streamer.
> 
> You have gotta get the lads some pics of your setup mate!



I've only has the Clears for about 3 weeks. I really like them. The detail, accuracy & sound stage are just fantastic. Like some of the reviews state they can be a touch bright with some recordings. I decided to try a tube amp like the Vali 2 to see if it would help with that. But, at least with the stock tube it hasn't reigned in the brightness. Again, this is just on a few recordings (e.g. Dire Straits Brothers In Arms, Toto IV). But what the Vali 2 (with the 6BZ7) has done is add some warmth and smoothness to the bass. Very nice 

So, recently I've been fooling around with various audio players for the Raspberry Pi and the HiFiBerry DAC+. When I connected it to the Vali 2 - I was very pleasantly surprised. It sounded as good (maybe better) than my Onkyo DP-X1. Due to software issues I gave up on the RuneAudio system and just today, tried MusicBox. MusicBox seems to work fairly well and is more current. I have the RCA outputs from the HiFiBerry going to the Vali 2. Using a web browser or even an Android client I can control the music via the Raspberry Pi. I have it setup to access my music files via a network share. Earlier I posted that the HiFiBerry has a Burr-Brown DAC, but according to their webpage, they have switched over to ESS.

I guess, now it's time to roll some tubes......


----------



## Lekoguy

volly said:


> @Lekoguy - Preface by saying that I was originally going compare a single 6ZH1p to a dual socket 6ZH1p ...
> 
> “There is something at work in my soul, which I do not understand.”
> ― Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley, Frankenstein, or The Modern Prometheus



Volly,

Thank you for your very detailed critique.  Being a noob at rolling without papers, your observations are groovy.  Or is that CDy?  I still love vinyl.

I'm confused about something, however.  Since a 6ZH1p is mono-triode tube, how could it work in a Vali 2 even with an adapter.  Wouldn't the output be Mono?  Or would it only output "Putin' on da Ritz?"


----------



## KoshNaranek

snafu1 said:


> I've only has the Clears for about 3 weeks. I really like them. The detail, accuracy & sound stage are just fantastic. Like some of the reviews state they can be a touch bright with some recordings. I decided to try a tube amp like the Vali 2 to see if it would help with that. But, at least with the stock tube it hasn't reigned in the brightness. Again, this is just on a few recordings (e.g. Dire Straits Brothers In Arms, Toto IV). But what the Vali 2 (with the 6BZ7) has done is add some warmth and smoothness to the bass. Very nice
> 
> So, recently I've been fooling around with various audio players for the Raspberry Pi and the HiFiBerry DAC+. When I connected it to the Vali 2 - I was very pleasantly surprised. It sounded as good (maybe better) than my Onkyo DP-X1. Due to software issues I gave up on the RuneAudio system and just today, tried MusicBox. MusicBox seems to work fairly well and is more current. I have the RCA outputs from the HiFiBerry going to the Vali 2. Using a web browser or even an Android client I can control the music via the Raspberry Pi. I have it setup to access my music files via a network share. Earlier I posted that the HiFiBerry has a Burr-Brown DAC, but according to their webpage, they have switched over to ESS.
> 
> I guess, now it's time to roll some tubes......


Actually there are 4 models of HiFiBerry DAC available. 3 use Burr Brown and 1 uses ESS. I have the earliest Burr Brown model.


----------



## volly

snafu1 said:


> I've only has the Clears for about 3 weeks. I really like them. The detail, accuracy & sound stage are just fantastic. Like some of the reviews state they can be a touch bright with some recordings. I decided to try a tube amp like the Vali 2 to see if it would help with that. But, at least with the stock tube it hasn't reigned in the brightness. Again, this is just on a few recordings (e.g. Dire Straits Brothers In Arms, Toto IV). But what the Vali 2 (with the 6BZ7) has done is add some warmth and smoothness to the bass. Very nice
> 
> So, recently I've been fooling around with various audio players for the Raspberry Pi and the HiFiBerry DAC+. When I connected it to the Vali 2 - I was very pleasantly surprised. It sounded as good (maybe better) than my Onkyo DP-X1. Due to software issues I gave up on the RuneAudio system and just today, tried MusicBox. MusicBox seems to work fairly well and is more current. I have the RCA outputs from the HiFiBerry going to the Vali 2. Using a web browser or even an Android client I can control the music via the Raspberry Pi. I have it setup to access my music files via a network share. Earlier I posted that the HiFiBerry has a Burr-Brown DAC, but according to their webpage, they have switched over to ESS.
> 
> I guess, now it's time to roll some tubes......



Damn nice, the colour scheme is pimp! Clear plus Vali 2 looks so nice together! 

Burr Brown Dac are beautiful and musical! I have a few Burr Brown based Dacs, one being my Theta Cobalt 307, a fantastic sounding dac. 
ESS chips might be a bit cheaper and easier to source perhaps?

The Vali 2 treble is somewhat more subdued compared to my Asgard 2 but both have very nice sounding high's. 

When you're ready to roll, this thread should help you.


----------



## volly

Lekoguy said:


> Volly,
> 
> Thank you for your very detailed critique.  Being a noob at rolling without papers, your observations are groovy.  Or is that CDy?  I still love vinyl.
> 
> I'm confused about something, however.  Since a 6ZH1p is mono-triode tube, how could it work in a Vali 2 even with an adapter.  Wouldn't the output be Mono?  Or would it only output "Putin' on da Ritz?"



Haha thanks mate, not technically proficient on the 6ZH1P design but it's not sounding like mono to me, sorry can't answer that one bud!


----------



## Lekoguy

volly said:


> Haha thanks mate, not technically proficient on the 6ZH1P design but it's not sounding like mono to me, sorry can't answer that one bud!


I was referring to using a single tube, rather than two tubes with the Frankentuber.  That would be in Stereo.


----------



## snafu1

volly said:


> Damn nice, the colour scheme is pimp! Clear plus Vali 2 looks so nice together!
> 
> Burr Brown Dac are beautiful and musical! I have a few Burr Brown based Dacs, one being my Theta Cobalt 307, a fantastic sounding dac.
> ESS chips might be a bit cheaper and easier to source perhaps?
> ...



Oh, you're right. It was just the _DAC+ Light_ that is using the ESS. The rest are Burr-Brown.


----------



## RustyPitchfork (Mar 2, 2018)

and... new level of tube rolling... A/B different tubes. Right now WE 396A vs Valvo E288CC.


----------



## Mr Trev

RustyPitchfork said:


> and... new level of tube rolling... A/B different tubes. Right now WE 396A vs Valvo E288CC.



Now there's dedication


----------



## Mr Trev

Lekoguy said:


> I was referring to using a single tube, rather than two tubes with the Frankentuber.  That would be in Stereo.



Haven't tried any of single triodes myself, but I'd think using only one you'd just get a single channel (left or right, not summed to mono)


----------



## Lekoguy

Mr Trev said:


> Haven't tried any of single triodes myself, but I'd think using only one you'd just get a single channel (left or right, not summed to mono)


I agree with your thoughts.  The thing is that Volly wanted to try the single tube with some sort of adapter (not the Frankentuber).  I was guessing the wiring in the adapter would combine the L & R channels.


----------



## roshambo (Mar 3, 2018)

Just tried Vali 2 with a National Electronics ECC88 6DJ8 on my HD800 and was pleasantly surprised. Compared to the JJ Goldpins that I'm normally using, I was immediately struck by how much more dynamic the Nationals are. The JJ has more forward round mids, while the Nationals mids are more neutral, with tighter, more detailed bass and a bit of sparkle in the highs. I'd say extension in both bass and treble is better, and the imaging is more realistic on the Nationals. I also think there's a touch of euphonic tube magic coming through. The Nationals are a drier sound than the JJ's or EH I've tried, which generally runs toward my preference for drier amps (I like Valhalla 2).


----------



## bcowen

Anybody try one of these yet?  The plate structure is a bit crooked, but it tests great with perfectly matched triodes.  Have it cooking in the Vali now, but I'll resist the urge to listen to it until at least tomorrow night...


----------



## volly

@bcowen - Doesn't look like a current production one, looks NOS. Probably from the 60's?

Haven't heard one myself, but from others accounts, a cool yet detailed sounding tube? 

FYI - I'm rolling in a Philips SQ at the moment.


----------



## bcowen

snafu1 said:


> I've only has the Clears for about 3 weeks. I really like them. The detail, accuracy & sound stage are just fantastic. Like some of the reviews state they can be a touch bright with some recordings. I decided to try a tube amp like the Vali 2 to see if it would help with that. But, at least with the stock tube it hasn't reigned in the brightness. Again, this is just on a few recordings (e.g. Dire Straits Brothers In Arms, Toto IV). But what the Vali 2 (with the 6BZ7) has done is add some warmth and smoothness to the bass. Very nice
> 
> So, recently I've been fooling around with various audio players for the Raspberry Pi and the HiFiBerry DAC+. When I connected it to the Vali 2 - I was very pleasantly surprised. It sounded as good (maybe better) than my Onkyo DP-X1. Due to software issues I gave up on the RuneAudio system and just today, tried MusicBox. MusicBox seems to work fairly well and is more current. I have the RCA outputs from the HiFiBerry going to the Vali 2. Using a web browser or even an Android client I can control the music via the Raspberry Pi. I have it setup to access my music files via a network share. Earlier I posted that the HiFiBerry has a Burr-Brown DAC, but according to their webpage, they have switched over to ESS.
> 
> I guess, now it's time to roll some tubes......



Awesome!  A new rolling addict is born.  

Not to get you started too quickly or anything, but of the couple dozen tubes I've rolled through the Vali so far, the stock tube was easily the worst sounding.  If you're willing to wait a bit, get the 396A/5670/2C51 to ECC88 adapter from the far east, and while that's on its way, get a couple Russian Voshkod 6N3PE's coming from the other direction.  Big grins for less than $25 total, including shipping.  If you have no patience, you're in good company so see if you can find a decent deal on a NOS Telefunken 6DJ8. No adapter required, but you'll likely pay quite a bit for a good tube with closely matched triodes.  Both Volly and I got super big grins with this tube.  Good luck, and keep us posted if you find something killer.


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> @bcowen - Doesn't look like a current production one, looks NOS. Probably from the 60's?
> 
> Haven't heard one myself, but from others accounts, a cool yet detailed sounding tube?
> 
> FYI - I'm rolling in a Philips SQ at the moment.



It's a '64.  My dad had a '64 Rambler.  I'll never forget the vacuum powered windshield wipers.  If it rained hard, you had to downshift for higher RPM's to speed up the wipers.  Hope my '64 tube has enough vacuum without having to rev the Vali.


----------



## volly

bcowen said:


> It's a '64.  My dad had a '64 Rambler.  I'll never forget the vacuum powered windshield wipers.  If it rained hard, you had to downshift for higher RPM's to speed up the wipers.  Hope my '64 tube has enough vacuum without having to rev the Vali.


PMSL.


----------



## jaywillin

bcowen said:


> Anybody try one of these yet?  The plate structure is a bit crooked, but it tests great with perfectly matched triodes.  Have it cooking in the Vali now, but I'll resist the urge to listen to it until at least tomorrow night...




the NOS tesla's are very good, i've owned several


----------



## snafu1

bcowen said:


> Awesome!  A new rolling addict is born.
> 
> Not to get you started too quickly or anything, but of the couple dozen tubes I've rolled through the Vali so far, the stock tube was easily the worst sounding.  If you're willing to wait a bit, get the 396A/5670/2C51 to ECC88 adapter from the far east, and while that's on its way, get a couple Russian Voshkod 6N3PE's coming from the other direction.  Big grins for less than $25 total, including shipping.  If you have no patience, you're in good company so see if you can find a decent deal on a NOS Telefunken 6DJ8. No adapter required, but you'll likely pay quite a bit for a good tube with closely matched triodes.  Both Volly and I got super big grins with this tube.  Good luck, and keep us posted if you find something killer.



Thanks bcowen. I've been reading this thread and trying to decide on which should be my first new tube. Being my first test, I want to find something that's not too expensive (maybe a Matsushita 7DJ8). 
However, the idea of trying other tubes has been put on hold as I try to figure out what's wrong with my new Vali 2. I've been having a problem with an intermittent low rumbling sound in the right channel. I've ruled out the source and the input cables. Schiit tech support thinks it might be a bad tube and they're sending me a replacement. Once I get this "schiit" out of the way and can confirm the amp is okay, I'll decide on a alternate tube strategy.


----------



## chef8489

Whats the best tube glow you guys are getting? So far the Ge jan 5670w gives me the best glow.


----------



## RustyPitchfork

chef8489 said:


> Whats the best tube glow you guys are getting? So far the Ge jan 5670w gives me the best glow.



396A for sure. I'm sure my GE JAN 5670W is close.


----------



## chef8489

RustyPitchfork said:


> 396A for sure. I'm sure my GE JAN 5670W is close.


Thought I had one of those, but cant seem to find it anywhere.


----------



## Mr Trev

chef8489 said:


> Whats the best tube glow you guys are getting? So far the Ge jan 5670w gives me the best glow.



My 5670 does light up the room too. The Voskhod 6n23 does the same. As far as best glow… runner up goes to the Reflektor 6n3p-e with the Yugofunken 12au7 winning. Both tubes have a fair bit of the heater filament exposed so you see more glow than what just comes out of the top/bottom. The Reflektor is brighter, but the Yugo has bigger plates (thus filament) and it also flashes when first turned on


----------



## RustyPitchfork

RustyPitchfork said:


> and... new level of tube rolling... A/B different tubes. Right now WE 396A vs Valvo E288CC.


DISCLAIMER: These are my own thoughts and should take them as such. Listening perception is unique and individual, and in no way shape or form am I saying this is any sort of truth for anyone else.

All right guys... I hate to say it, but my thoughts on rolling tubes in the Vali 2 has completely changed. I'm calling it de-bunked. I spent all weekend A/B'ing my Vali 2's and I can't tell a difference. Maybe it's my ears, maybe it's my cans, but there is no noticeable difference between any of the tubes that I used, including the stock one. The difference between my Modi2 Uber vs Modi Multi-bit is perceivable. The difference between the Vali 2 and my Jotunheim is (barely) noticeable. The tubes... not so much. Maybe I am doing this wrong, but I just am not seeing it.


----------



## chef8489

RustyPitchfork said:


> DISCLAIMER: These are my own thoughts and should take them as such. Listening perception is unique and individual, and in no way shape or form am I saying this is any sort of truth for anyone else.
> 
> All right guys... I hate to say it, but my thoughts on rolling tubes in the Vali 2 has completely changed. I'm calling it de-bunked. I spent all weekend A/B'ing my Vali 2's and I can't tell a difference. Maybe it's my ears, maybe it's my cans, but there is no noticeable difference between any of the tubes that I used, including the stock one. The difference between my Modi2 Uber vs Modi Multi-bit is perceivable. The difference between the Vali 2 and my Jotunheim is (barely) noticeable. The tubes... not so much. Maybe I am doing this wrong, but I just am not seeing it.


I would say it is your ears. I can clearly tell a difference between tubes on my vali 2. Could also be the cans you are using hiding the differences. Maybe a more neutral pair of cans will aid in your ears telling a difference. What tubes are you using?


----------



## roshambo

RustyPitchfork said:


> DISCLAIMER: These are my own thoughts and should take them as such. Listening perception is unique and individual, and in no way shape or form am I saying this is any sort of truth for anyone else.
> 
> All right guys... I hate to say it, but my thoughts on rolling tubes in the Vali 2 has completely changed. I'm calling it de-bunked. I spent all weekend A/B'ing my Vali 2's and I can't tell a difference. Maybe it's my ears, maybe it's my cans, but there is no noticeable difference between any of the tubes that I used, including the stock one. The difference between my Modi2 Uber vs Modi Multi-bit is perceivable. The difference between the Vali 2 and my Jotunheim is (barely) noticeable. The tubes... not so much. Maybe I am doing this wrong, but I just am not seeing it.




Interesting. What tubes were you rolling? Potentially, I'm thinking this might be because your headphones aren't amp sensitive? I've never listened to the M1060's (if that's what you were using, just looking at your signature). Listening on HD800's, I hear the differences between tubes. On my low impedance HD579's, the source/amp becomes a lot less important.


----------



## RustyPitchfork

Here was my testing setup. 


Setup is FLAC files > Plex > Airport Express > Optical Out > Modi Multibit > Spliters > Pyst RCA cables > Vali 2’s > 1/2”-1/4” adapters > iVanki Aux cables > SESCOM 1/4” A/B switch > Monoprice M1060s or E-Mu Teaks. Also added my DT880 (250ohm)

Tubes: Amperex BugleBoy ECC88 (Holland) Philips E188CC (France) Western Electric 396A (USA) Valvo E288CC (Germany) RTC ECC88 (Holland) RCA PCC88 (UK) Tesla E88CC (Czech) Stock Tubes (Un-labled and Taiwan)


----------



## roshambo

RustyPitchfork said:


> Here was my testing setup.
> 
> 
> Setup is FLAC files > Plex > Airport Express > Optical Out > Modi Multibit > Spliters > Pyst RCA cables > Vali 2’s > 1/2”-1/4” adapters > iVanki Aux cables > SESCOM 1/4” A/B switch > Monoprice M1060s or E-Mu Teaks. Also added my DT880 (250ohm)
> ...



So let me ask you this. Of those headphones, which do you find are the most amp sensitive? My guess would be the DT880's?

Which two tubes sounded most different to you? Potentially, I was thinking it had to be the order you sampled each setup. Some of those tubes may not be very different from each other and it's a question of finding the right contrast.


----------



## RustyPitchfork

roshambo said:


> So let me ask you this. Of those headphones, which do you find are the most amp sensitive? My guess would be the DT880's?
> 
> Which two tubes sounded most different to you? Potentially, I was thinking it had to be the order you sampled each setup. Some of those tubes may not be very different from each other and it's a question of finding the right contrast.



I didn't find any of the tubes different enough to note. Everything I would perceive I went back and double checked. I was under the impression prior to this that the M1060's were the most tube sensitive. I'll go back and try the DT880s so more.


----------



## roshambo

RustyPitchfork said:


> I didn't find any of the tubes different enough to note. Everything I would perceive I went back and double checked. I was under the impression prior to this that the M1060's were the most tube sensitive. I'll go back and try the DT880s so more.



Let us know what you find. My other thought is to ask what tracks you were using? Personally, I like to use classical violin for treble, Yosi Horikawa's tracks like 'Letter' for imagery, anything by 'In Flames' for how the tube handles distorted guitars that can be fatigue inducing on the wrong setup, and John Digweed's 'Bilder' to evaluate bass slam and dynamics.


----------



## bcowen

RustyPitchfork said:


> DISCLAIMER: These are my own thoughts and should take them as such. Listening perception is unique and individual, and in no way shape or form am I saying this is any sort of truth for anyone else.
> 
> All right guys... I hate to say it, but my thoughts on rolling tubes in the Vali 2 has completely changed. I'm calling it de-bunked. I spent all weekend A/B'ing my Vali 2's and I can't tell a difference. Maybe it's my ears, maybe it's my cans, but there is no noticeable difference between any of the tubes that I used, including the stock one. The difference between my Modi2 Uber vs Modi Multi-bit is perceivable. The difference between the Vali 2 and my Jotunheim is (barely) noticeable. The tubes... not so much. Maybe I am doing this wrong, but I just am not seeing it.





> Maybe I am doing this wrong, but I just am not seeing it.



Well, there's the problem...your eyes obviously can't hear very well.  (groan)  

Differences between tubes in my setup are pretty dramatic, especially when changing tube types (ie: 6DJ8 to 6SN7, etc).  A few thoughts:

1) You have a whole lotta wire, adapters, and connections between the source and your cans.  With every connection and interconnect there's a better than average chance that information gets lost or altered, especially when dealing with the more economically friendly products we're all talking about here that don't sport connectors with pure metal and costly platings. Might be worth paring down to the bare minimum of Airport ->Modi -> Vali -> Cans and give some tube swaps a listen.  I realize that kills the A/B thing, but you might be surprised at the difference.
2) I have not tried the Optical input on my Modi so I'm kinda talkin' outta my butt here, but in lower cost components I've found (in general) that the coax (S/PDIF) typically sounds better.  I don't know the Airport Express...does it have an S/PDIF out?  If so, and if you have a spare 75 ohm cable you can use, try that between the Airport and the Modi.  

You certainly have some nice tubes...it's just surprising the differences aren't there.


----------



## snafu1

Having recently made my own 3.5mm AB switch, I don't necessarily doubt RustyPitchfork's conclusion. We can easily fool ourselves to hearing something we expect to hear. At least I can.

I had 2 DACs that I thought had a noticeable difference. But when AB'ing them, I couldn't hear an appreciable difference at all. This really surprised me. 

Those of you that say that there definitely is a noticeable difference between tubes - have you ever done a blind test? You know, maybe have a friend swap the tubes out behind your back and have you pick out which was which?  

As an example: There's a YouTube video I saw a couple of months ago of a guy upgrading from the Schiit Modi 2 to the Gungnir. He admits that when he first listened to the Gungnir he thought it sounded better than the Modi. But then he had his girlfriend do a blind test between the two and he tried to identify the DAC., He was correct only 40% of the time. When we know what we're listening too, it's so easy to fool ourselves. 

The thing is, with just one Vali, in order to compare two tubes you have to turn the Vali off, swap the tubes and give it a few minutes to warm up. That's a long time for our "audio memory" to retain what we previously heard. I'm no expert, but I find this a tough thing to do. The best way to do this is the way RustyPitchffork is doing it. 
Yes, has has a lot of extra cabling - the final sound may be slightly altered by this. But both sources are going through the same path (in my opinion) any potential sound signature difference in the two sources should still carry through to the headphones. 

I know there are a lot of variables here, but I think this deserves some more testing.


----------



## RustyPitchfork

snafu1 said:


> Having recently made my own 3.5mm AB switch, I don't necessarily doubt RustyPitchfork's conclusion. We can easily fool ourselves to hearing something we expect to hear. At least I can.
> 
> I had 2 DACs that I thought had a noticeable difference. But when AB'ing them, I couldn't hear an appreciable difference at all. This really surprised me.
> 
> ...




Thanks snafu1! Some of the stories of audio memory are why I went down this road. I have not had the chance to do a blind test. I will have to coordinate with someone to help out.


----------



## RustyPitchfork

bcowen said:


> Well, there's the problem...your eyes obviously can't hear very well.  (groan)
> 
> Differences between tubes in my setup are pretty dramatic, especially when changing tube types (ie: 6DJ8 to 6SN7, etc).  A few thoughts:
> 
> ...



A) Dramatically different tube types may help.
1) Yeah, that was the setup I was using and I was doing straight swaps out of my first Vali 2 for months. Started to really question what I was hearing. FYI, I did a plugin direct and could not tell a difference. 
2) For the Airport Express, no it does not have coax. It's just analog or TOSLink. If you want to read a great in-depth review in a human readable fashion, check out this review... http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/airport-express-audio-quality-2014.htm I have no problems relying on how good the output is of the TOSLink. 

B) YEAH! I'm surprised too. I have read enviously about some of these tubes and to hear NO difference is a bit shocking. Maybe it's Schiit's design. I'm no electrical engineer, but I would have expected something more.


----------



## roshambo

If I understand correctly Vali 2 is a hybrid tube amp, so the tube is only the preamp stage, so it's not going to be as tubey as a pure tube amp. Vali 2 power stage is solid state. Rolling has an effect, but not as much of an effect, as possibly in other tube amps.


----------



## chef8489

Yes I have done blind testing. Thing is my results were close to the same results to a friend that sent me a lot of these tubes. He did not give me any notes on how these tubes would sound, I did not read up on them before trying them, and they were all vintage. I listened to them and made my own notes and my notes were spot on to his notes. SO that tells me that they made a difference and our hearing and sound preferences are quite similar. We also used the same headphones when testing the tubes. K7xx, hd650, th-x00. I used Oppo pm-1 for a bit while he uses the Aeon open and now I use the LCD2C.


----------



## Mr Trev

RustyPitchfork said:


> A) Dramatically different tube types may help.
> 1) Yeah, that was the setup I was using and I was doing straight swaps out of my first Vali 2 for months. Started to really question what I was hearing. FYI, I did a plugin direct and could not tell a difference.
> 2) For the Airport Express, no it does not have coax. It's just analog or TOSLink. If you want to read a great in-depth review in a human readable fashion, check out this review... http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/airport-express-audio-quality-2014.htm I have no problems relying on how good the output is of the TOSLink.
> 
> B) YEAH! I'm surprised too. I have read enviously about some of these tubes and to hear NO difference is a bit shocking. Maybe it's Schiit's design. I'm no electrical engineer, but I would have expected something more.



From the reading I've done on hybrid amps and how the Vali is engineered. Your experience does make some sense. The VAli 2 uses negative feedback in the amp. Apparently using negative feedback can minimize how much the tube will affect the sound. From what I've gathered low gain uses much higher negative feedback (in order to lower the level) and will make those differences even smaller. My suggestion… use high gain and see if that makes a difference.
Here's one of the write ups I read: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/amplifiers/hybrid/


----------



## volly

@RustyPitchfork - Commendable effort on the A/B testing mate, I'd imagine that would have taken a fair bit of time and effort, good job!

I feel your conclusion is sincere and honest, I'd say sit back and relax to your favourite music and just switch off (You've probably got ear fatigue!). 

Also everyone's impression here is subjective and their own, exaggerated more so by the English dictionary. 

Compared to your other amps, how does the Vali 2 rate?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> From the reading I've done on hybrid amps and how the Vali is engineered. Your experience does make some sense. The VAli 2 uses negative feedback in the amp. Apparently using negative feedback can minimize how much the tube will affect the sound. From what I've gathered low gain uses much higher negative feedback (in order to lower the level) and will make those differences even smaller. My suggestion… use high gain and see if that makes a difference.
> Here's one of the write ups I read: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/amplifiers/hybrid/



Thanks for that, Mr Trev.  I knew the Vali used negative feedback, but had no idea the amount differed between low and high gain settings.  Now I'm gonna have to go listen to all those dang tubes _again_ in high gain.  Oh, and the 12AU7 converter came in today, so I have a primo RCA clear-top on deck to try.  In both gain settings.


----------



## volly

@bcowen - Looking forward to your thoughts on the 12AU7 path on the Vali 2, safe travels!


----------



## luckybaer

I'm going through my tube collection, and it is really, really hard to pick out differences between tubes.  The differences are there, but for the most part, you've got to really try hard to notice a difference.  At least that's what happens with my tin ears.


----------



## snafu1

So, earlier I posted that my new Vali 2 was having issues with the right channel. Schiit sent me out a replacement tube - 6BQ7A (made in USA). That seems to have resolved the problem.

So, now I guess I should try purchasing another tube and see if it really makes a difference. I don't want to spend too much. I was thinking of getting a Matsush*ta 7DJ8 for $35. Any other suggestions?


----------



## luckybaer

snafu1 said:


> So, earlier I posted that my new Vali 2 was having issues with the right channel. Schiit sent me out a replacement tube - 6BQ7A (made in USA). That seems to have resolved the problem.
> 
> So, now I guess I should try purchasing another tube and see if it really makes a difference. I don't want to spend too much. I was thinking of getting a Matsush*ta 7DJ8 for $35. Any other suggestions?


You could buy that Matsushita and be happy if curiosity doesn't get the better of you.  I got mine from Upscale Audio, and it is a terrific tube.  Works great with every headphone I have, but especially works well with the neutral- to bright- headphones (like DT880, K601, and even Denon AH-D2000).  I'm only speaking about headphones with which I am familiar, though, so as usual in this subjective world, YMMV.


----------



## bcowen

snafu1 said:


> So, earlier I posted that my new Vali 2 was having issues with the right channel. Schiit sent me out a replacement tube - 6BQ7A (made in USA). That seems to have resolved the problem.
> 
> So, now I guess I should try purchasing another tube and see if it really makes a difference. I don't want to spend too much. I was thinking of getting a Matsush*ta 7DJ8 for $35. Any other suggestions?



Glad to hear it was just the tube.  Schiit happens with tubes, no matter how well they're screened or tested upfront.  Kinda like getting married...despite proper diligence and even pre-testing, they start screeching and spewing static long before they should.  Much easier to replace a tube though.  

My favorite low cost tube in the Vali (so far) is the 6N3P-E.  A couple dollars per tube (or even less with small quantities) on Ebay. But you have to be patient on shipping from Russia, and you need an adapter to use this tube in the Vali.  Also inexpensive, but now you'll have to wait for shipping from the far east.   You can get both (including shipping) for about $25.


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> @bcowen - Looking forward to your thoughts on the 12AU7 path on the Vali 2, safe travels!



Yes, this will be interesting.  I would never have come up with this combination on my own, so thanks (I think?) to Mr Trev for bringing it up.  I have 2 or 3 billion 12AU7's in the stash (perhaps a slight exaggeration), so this may take a while.   

Did you ever order another 396A/2C51/5670 adapter?  If not, PM me...


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> Glad to hear it was just the tube.  Schiit happens with tubes, no matter how well they're screened or tested upfront.  Kinda like getting married...despite proper diligence and even pre-testing, they start screeching and spewing static long before they should.  Much easier to replace a tube though.
> 
> My favorite low cost tube in the Vali (so far) is the 6N3P-E.  A couple dollars per tube (or even less with small quantities) on Ebay. But you have to be patient on shipping from Russia, and you need an adapter to use this tube in the Vali.  Also inexpensive, but now you'll have to wait for shipping from the far east.   You can get both (including shipping) for about $25.


This is also my favorite so far. It is what I keep going back to in my setup and I have several adapters and tube options.


----------



## bcowen

Speaking of 6N3P-E's, I've seen a number of posts waxing poetic about the 1960's Foton's as some of the best of this tube type.  So I had to get some, mostly because I don't have any.    Figured this was a pretty good price:  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/323126944118?ViewItem=&item=323126944118


----------



## bcowen

luckybaer said:


> You could buy that Matsu****a and be happy if curiosity doesn't get the better of you.  I got mine from Upscale Audio, and it is a terrific tube.  Works great with every headphone I have, but especially works well with the neutral- to bright- headphones (like DT880, K601, and even Denon AH-D2000).  I'm only speaking about headphones with which I am familiar, though, so as usual in this subjective world, YMMV.



I crack up every time I see the forum software whack the Matsus...obviously four letters together that aren't allowed.  Maybe we should refer to them as Matsuschiita's.


----------



## Lekoguy

bcowen said:


> I crack up every time I see the forum software whack the Matsus...obviously four letters together that aren't allowed.  Maybe we should refer to them as Matsuschiita's.


Excellent !!!


----------



## volly

bcowen said:


> Speaking of 6N3P-E's, I've seen a number of posts waxing poetic about the 1960's Foton's as some of the best of this tube type.  So I had to get some, mostly because I don't have any.    Figured this was a pretty good price:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/323126944118?ViewItem=&item=323126944118


Looks legit! The price is crazy good?! 

I'm moving on from the 5670 variants for a bit, I'm gonna pull the trigger on some 6Sn7 probably today, will let you guys know which ones! 

Matsuschiita it is!


----------



## chef8489 (Mar 8, 2018)

I have a few tubs other than the 6n3p-e to try.


----------



## volly

@chef8489 - Fun times ahead!!


----------



## chef8489

volly said:


> @chef8489 - Fun times ahead!!


Yep thats not including all the other tubes i have with the other adapters.


----------



## luckybaer

At some point I'll have to share some impressions of the tubes in my collection, but it is a long process to listen to enough music through each individual tube.  At least listen to enough where I can pick out subtle and not-so-subtle differences.  Needless to say, I've been lucky so far - no "bad" tubes.  Perhaps the only "weak" tube is the one that came with the Vali 2, but even that one isn't "unlistenable."  It just doesn't stand up to even a $15 JJ or EH tube.


----------



## timb5881

Couple of questions.  Is there a list of what tubes will work with the Vali 2, ones that will work with an adapter, and ones that are just a plain no do not try this tube?  The other general question is how does the Vali 2 compare with the Magni 3?


----------



## roshambo

timb5881 said:


> Couple of questions.  Is there a list of what tubes will work with the Vali 2, ones that will work with an adapter, and ones that are just a plain no do not try this tube?  The other general question is how does the Vali 2 compare with the Magni 3?



Any tube marked 6DJ8, 6922 or ECC88 will work. Many people also have rolled the EH 6CG7, it plugs right in. There's also others that can use an adapter but someone more knowledgeable can comment on that since I haven't done it personally yet.

I've heard Vali 2 and Magni 3 side-by-side on the HD800. With Mimby, Vali 2 is laidback, has a moderate soundstage, and is non-fatiguing. Dynamics and bass are both moderate, the least of anything Schiit has with a tube, and while it has a tubey tone on stock tubes it's not supremely dynamic or bassy. Switching to a Matsushita tube brought out the bass and dynamics, or if you want more warmth try the Electro-harmonix 6CG7. Power wise, Vali 2 is enough for dynamic headphones but if you have orthos, I'd skip it. Magni 3 has very good power for its size and it's solid state, so it has a more even sound that is probably familiar. Everything is more or less balanced, nothing jumps out to me other than it sounds pretty good. For the price, it's very impressive. That being said, if you want "different" or any tube magic, you won't find it in Magni.


----------



## chef8489

So adapters I am using are 6n3 to ecc88, 6f8g to ecc88,and 6sn7 to ecc88. To use these you will need a socket extender.


----------



## Thenewguy007

chef8489 said:


> So adapters I am using are 6n3 to ecc88, 6f8g to ecc88,and 6sn7 to ecc88. To use these you will need a socket extender.



I have a 2C51/5670396A to ECC88 adapter, but the 6n3p-e won't fit into those sockets. The socket adapter holes are a little too wide for the 6n3p-e to fit (unless I try bending some of the pins.

Though the 6n3p-e fits directly into the Vali 2 (but doesn't light up when turned on).


----------



## chef8489

Thenewguy007 said:


> I have a 2C51/5670396A to ECC88 adapter, but the 6n3p-e won't fit into those sockets. The socket adapter holes are a little too wide for the 6n3p-e to fit (unless I try bending some of the pins.
> 
> Though the 6n3p-e fits directly into the Vali 2 (but doesn't light up when turned on).


You need the 6n3 to ecc88 adapter. But this adapter also fit the 396a and the 5670w. You sure you have a 6n3p and not a 6n23p? 6n23p fits directly in the vali 2 as does the 6n1p


----------



## Mr Trev

Thenewguy007 said:


> I have a 2C51/5670396A to ECC88 adapter, but the 6n3p-e won't fit into those sockets. The socket adapter holes are a little too wide for the 6n3p-e to fit (unless I try bending some of the pins.
> 
> Though the 6n3p-e fits directly into the Vali 2 (but doesn't light up when turned on).



Weird. It's possible some of the tube's pins are bent because it should fit in the socket - but you also mentioned it'll plug into the Vali, so maybe not.
The 6n3p-e/396a/5670 have their heaters wired to different pins which explains the need for the adapter (also why it won't light up in the Vali)


----------



## chef8489

The 6n3p-e/396a/5670 need the adapter. The 6n23p and 6n1p do not need an adapter as they fit the ecc88/6922 that the vali 2 is.


----------



## Thenewguy007

chef8489 said:


> You need the 6n3 to ecc88 adapter. But this adapter also fit the 396a and the 5670w. You sure you have a 6n3p and not a 6n23p? 6n23p fits directly in the vali 2 as does the 6n1p



Definitely not 6n23p.

btw do all 396a/5670 tubes have pin layouts that are slightly wider than the regular ecc88/6922 tubes or do they match them exactly & would fit into 6922 sockets?

Might got the wrong tubes or they sent me a wrong adapter.


----------



## chef8489

Thenewguy007 said:


> Definitely not 6n23p.
> 
> btw do all 396a/5670 tubes have pin layouts that are slightly wider than the regular ecc88/6922 tubes or do they match them exactly & would fit into 6922 sockets?
> 
> Might got the wrong tubes or they sent me a wrong adapter.


They are slightly different. If you really press it you can fit the 396a/5670/6n3 into the ecc88 6922 slot.


----------



## Mr Trev (Mar 10, 2018)

Maybe the pin size is a little larger for the 396/5670 tubes because as far as I've gathered a 9 pin socket is a 9 pin socket.

One of my adapters - don't remember which one - had really tight contacts and it took some force to seat the tube. Just stuff the tube in. They're cheap, what's the worst that can happen

Thinking back, when I replaced the cheap-ass sockets in my P1 amps with some Beltons I had to deal with very tight contacts too. Took quite a bit of effort to get the tube in and out. After a couple of swaps the contacts were bent enough that it didn't need as much force anymore . That may just be the same issue @Thenewguy007 is running into


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Maybe the pin size is a little larger for the 396/5670 tubes because as far as I've gathered a 9 pin socket is a 9 pin socket.
> 
> One of my adapters - don't remember which one - had really tight contacts and it took some force to seat the tube. Just stuff the tube in. They're cheap, what's the worst that can happen
> 
> Thinking back, when I replaced the cheap-ass sockets in my P1 amps with some Beltons I had to deal with very tight contacts too. Took quite a bit of effort to get the tube in and out. After a couple of swaps the contacts were bent enough that it didn't need as much force anymore . That may just be the same issue @Thenewguy007 is running into



Agree.  A 9-pin (noval) socket should fit any tube with a noval pin arrangement.  Pin sizes do vary...the pins on the real McCoy (ie: pre-JJ) Teslas I have are all skinnier than the usual 9-pin tube pins.  They go into even tight sockets quite easily, but on the flip side feel loose in a socket that's had a busy life.


----------



## luckybaer

*I spent some time with my tube inventory and I thought I'd share some of my thoughts.

The Set-Up:*

PC -> Eitr -> Modi 2 MB -> Vali 2

All cables/interconnects = Schiit PYST, Audioquest Forest, or Blue Jeans Cables


*The Music:*

All tracks either ripped from CD or downloaded from HD Tracks

·        “After Midnight” *Eric Clapton*, _Eric Clapton _ALAC (HD Tracks) [DR 10, -4.72dB]

·        “Sultans of Swing” *Dire Straits*, _Dire Straits _ALAC (CD: 9362-47769-2) [DR 12, -4.25dB]

·        “Knock Me Down” *Red Hot Chili Peppers*, _Mother’s Milk _ALAC (CD: Mobile Fidelity UDCD 683) [DR 12, -3.63dB]

·        “I Want You Back” *Jackson 5*, _The Essential Michael Jackson _ALAC (HD Tracks) [DR 7, -8.90dB]

·        “Werewolves of London” *Warren Zevon*, _Excitable Boy _ALAC (CD: Audio Fidelity AFZ 166) [DR 13, -1.67dB]

·        “Into the Groove” *Madonna*, _The Immaculate Collection _FLAC (CD: D254164) [DR 12, -5.03dB]

·        “Carnival” *Natalie Merchant*, _Tiger Lily _ALAC (CD D108921) [DR 12, -4.15dB]


*The Method:*  Hours of listening to the tubes and doing A/B swaps from time to time.  Repeated passages from certain songs over and over.  It was fun, and time flew by.


*The Tubes:*

·        6BZ7:  Came with amp.

·        JJ E88CC/6922

·        Electro Harmonix 6922

·        Philips PCC88/7DJ8

·        Matsushita/National PCC88/7DJ8

·        Tungsram E88CC 6922

·        Mullard/IEC “Master Series 10M” ECC88/6DJ8


*#7: 6BZ7*

Good baseline with which to compare other tubes.  Inadequacy revealed via inexpensive upgrade to either JJ E88CC or EH 6922.  Thin, brittle, unsatisfying – especially with DT880 headphones.  Upgrade immediately.


*#6:  Electro Harmonix 6922*

Solid, very polite tube.  No one aspect stands out.  Bass, mids, treble all adequate.  Treble may roll-off more than desired, but did not notice this until listening to tubes I’ve rated higher.  Mids lacking texture and depth of higher-rated tubes.


*#5:  JJ E88CC/6922*

Good value (same price as Electro Harmonix 6922).  More bass than the EH 6922 – plentiful, extended, and well-controlled.  Like the EH 6922, better separation and soundstage than the stock 6BZ7.  Highs don’t seem to roll off as quickly as EH 6922, but it took me several listening sessions between the tubes to even notice.


*#4:  Matsushita/National PCC88/7DJ8*

Worth the extra money over the EH 6922 and JJ E88CC.  Extended lows that never seem to lose clarity or impact.  Smooth mids – perhaps too smooth, as it fell short of the visceral edginess I found (and liked) in tubes rated higher.  A pleasant listen, but never dull.  If your budget for a Vali 2 tube upgrade is <=$50, this is a great option.


*#3:  Mullard/IEC “Master Series 10M” ECC88/6DJ8*

The top 4 tubes are so close – throw a hat over them!  The Mullard/IEC is a bit more forward than the Matsushita.  The top 4 tubes all have better soundstage, separation, clarity, and dynamics than the bottom 3 tubes.  Deep, rich bass that really stands out.  Mids are not recessed and have an edge to them that I like.  Highs come with great attack and decay on cymbals and are non-fatiguing.


*#1 (tie): Philips PCC88/7DJ8 & Tungsram E88CC 6922*

Those with better ears than I could probably make out some differences between these two tubes, but I didn’t want to waste any time nitpicking.  Both tubes are exemplary – instrument placement, width and depth of soundstage, a sense of air – they’ll lifted any haze or veil off of my system – mainly noticeable with the HD650 (that headphone really came alive with these tubes).  Bass is extended and well controlled.  Mids (especially guitar and vocals) have great timbre, texture, and details.  Percussion:  attack, ATTACK!!!  Delayyyyy… WOW.  Not fatiguing whatsoever – I could (and did) listen to these tubes for 2+ hours in a sitting.


----------



## snafu1

Thanks luckybaer. Since I'm looking for my 1st new tube, your post is a great resource.


----------



## bcowen

luckybaer said:


> *I spent some time with my tube inventory and I thought I'd share some of my thoughts.
> 
> The Set-Up:*
> 
> ...



+1 to snafu1...thanks Luckybaer for taking the time to share your impressions with such nice detail.  With your comments, I'm going to have to re-listen to the Matsuschiita and Philips 7DJ's (guessing we both bought them from Uncle Kevin?)   On initial listen, both were a bit anemic sounding -- they needed a little more meat on the bones (for my tastes).  But I did not give them a fair amount of break-in time either, which is my own stupid fault.  More tubes than patience, I guess.


----------



## Mr Trev

Anybody get a chance to try the Matsu 6dj8? Those can be had for about half the cost of the 7dj8s IIRC.

Hows about those Tungsram 7dj8 over at PCX?


----------



## roshambo

Mr Trev said:


> Anybody get a chance to try the Matsu 6dj8? Those can be had for about half the cost of the 7dj8s IIRC.
> 
> Hows about those Tungsram 7dj8 over at PCX?



I have the Matsushita 6DJ8's and they were the best tube I rolled for the Vali 2. Noticeable improvement to dynamics. Makes them less laidback but a great tube


----------



## raf1919

luckybaer said:


> *I spent some time with my tube inventory and I thought I'd share some of my thoughts.
> 
> The Set-Up:*
> 
> ...





bcowen said:


> +1 to snafu1...thanks Luckybaer for taking the time to share your impressions with such nice detail.  With your comments, I'm going to have to re-listen to the Matsuschiita and Philips 7DJ's (guessing we both bought them from Uncle Kevin?)   On initial listen, both were a bit anemic sounding -- they needed a little more meat on the bones (for my tastes).  But I did not give them a fair amount of break-in time either, which is my own stupid fault.  More tubes than patience, I guess.



curious if you ever tried Genalex Gold lion or Telefunken Black Diamond ?


----------



## chef8489

raf1919 said:


> curious if you ever tried Genalex Gold lion or Telefunken Black Diamond ?


Yes I have a Gold Lion and while it is a Improvement over the stock tube it does not compare to Nos vintage Tubes. I would say if you dont want to use an adapter pick up a vintage Russian 6n23p. It beats out the Gold Lion by a good margin. Just better fuller bass and better high detail with more separation.


----------



## raf1919

Where do you buy that ? Tubedepot?


----------



## chef8489

raf1919 said:


> Where do you buy that ? Tubedepot?


Ebay would have the best prices. Either the Reflektor or the Voshkod, 

You can also look at the 6n1p. It is fairly similar to the 6n23p in sound signature and will fit the same socket.


----------



## bcowen

raf1919 said:


> curious if you ever tried Genalex Gold lion or Telefunken Black Diamond ?



I have some of the new Genalex, but they haven't made it into the listening queue just yet. Don't have the new Tele...have quite a few old Tele's, so probably something I can actually avoid spending money on for once. 

Over on the Lyr tube rolling thread there's discussion about a 6C8-G tube.  Prices for this tube are pretty reasonable right now, at least until the Head-Fi hordes descend on Ebay snatching them up by the handful. Needs a different adapter, so guess what I just ordered.


----------



## raf1919

is this one fine https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-pa...115979&hash=item28464dd169:g:GvEAAOSwmgJY41qN


----------



## luckybaer

bcowen said:


> +1 to snafu1...thanks Luckybaer for taking the time to share your impressions with such nice detail.  With your comments, I'm going to have to re-listen to the Matsuschiita and Philips 7DJ's (guessing we both bought them from Uncle Kevin?)   On initial listen, both were a bit anemic sounding -- they needed a little more meat on the bones (for my tastes).  But I did not give them a fair amount of break-in time either, which is my own stupid fault.  More tubes than patience, I guess.


Both from Uncle Kevin.  I notice the Philips are gone now.

Which headphones were you using while listening to the "Matsuschiita" and the Philips?  I typically go with my DT880 or HD650.  On high gain.


----------



## bcowen

raf1919 said:


> is this one fine https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-pa...115979&hash=item28464dd169:g:GvEAAOSwmgJY41qN



Should be.  Those have the rocket logo which is more desirable.


----------



## bcowen

luckybaer said:


> Both from Uncle Kevin.  I notice the Philips are gone now.
> 
> Which headphones were you using while listening to the "Matsuschiita" and the Philips?  I typically go with my DT880 or HD650.  On high gain.



I only have one pair of 'phones (well, beyond travel and cheap ones), the Alpha Primes. Been using them almost exclusively on low gain, but am trying high gain now as well.


----------



## luckybaer

bcowen said:


> I only have one pair of 'phones (well, beyond travel and cheap ones), the Alpha Primes. Been using them almost exclusively on low gain, but am trying high gain now as well.


I don't know much about the Alpha Primes.  What's their sound signature like?  Pretty neutral (DT880 is relatively neutral, with perhaps more sparkle up top than some like; HD650 is heavier on the lower-mids and upper bass, giving it warmth, but it is a very resolving set of cans), or does it lean in another direction?


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> I have some of the new Genalex, but they haven't made it into the listening queue just yet. Don't have the new Tele...have quite a few old Tele's, so probably something I can actually avoid spending money on for once.
> 
> Over on the Lyr tube rolling thread there's discussion about a 6C8-G tube.  Prices for this tube are pretty reasonable right now, at least until the Head-Fi hordes descend on Ebay snatching them up by the handful. Needs a different adapter, so guess what I just ordered.


You mean like this


----------



## snafu1

Holy smokes! That actually works (even with the adapter)?


----------



## volly

I chuckle a bit when I see someone posts "I just got the Vali 2, which tubes should I roll first?". 

Then someone like @chef8489 post a pic like that and just blows peoples minds!!


----------



## chef8489 (Mar 10, 2018)

snafu1 said:


> Holy smokes! That actually works (even with the adapter)?


Yes it works great.
Here is a 6sn7 and it works great as well. The vali 2 is an amazing amp and works with a lot of different tubes.It is a sylvania gtb 6sn7 from the late 30s.


----------



## roshambo

chef8489 said:


> You mean like this



The adapter makes it look like you sent your tube to the electric chair.


----------



## chef8489

roshambo said:


> The adapter makes it look like you sent your tube to the electric chair.


It has to have it.  This thread made me put it back in the amp and I will use it with my Lcd2 classics.


----------



## roshambo

chef8489 said:


> It has to have it.  This thread made me put it back in the amp and I will use it with my Lcd2 classics.



I am really curious about it. Could you describe how the Ken Rads sound in the Vali 2 relative to stock tubes?


----------



## chef8489

roshambo said:


> I am really curious about it. Could you describe how the Ken Rads sound in the Vali 2 relative to stock tubes?


It has been a long time since I have listened to the stock tube, but I will compare them tonight with the lcd2c and some reference custom Iems. I sold all my other headphones as I love the LCD2 classic that much.


----------



## roshambo

chef8489 said:


> It has been a long time since I have listened to the stock tube, but I will compare them tonight with the lcd2c and some reference custom Iems. I sold all my other headphones as I love the LCD2 classic that much.



I visited Audeze's office last week and listened to basically everything they had including LCD-4's and I freaking forgot to try the LCD2C's. Such fail, totally slipped my mind. And I actually liked the LCD2-F's better than either the 3's and especially the 4's, which I did not understand at all for the price. But straying OT...

Let us know how the Ken Rad's sound...


----------



## bcowen

luckybaer said:


> I don't know much about the Alpha Primes.  What's their sound signature like?  Pretty neutral (DT880 is relatively neutral, with perhaps more sparkle up top than some like; HD650 is heavier on the lower-mids and upper bass, giving it warmth, but it is a very resolving set of cans), or does it lean in another direction?



The Primes sound pretty neutral to me.  But that has to be put in proper context -- I'm a green and inexperienced newbie in the headphone world with a grand total of about 3 months experience.  I started out with a $150 pair that sucked only a little less than my son's Beats.  Kind of like saying a Whopper is better than a Big Mac when you're discussing aged tenderloin.    Returned those and got a pair of Monoprice M1060's.  Now we're talkin'.  I'd had the 1060's for a couple weeks when I spied the previously loved Alphas on Audiogon, and after a little back'n'forth with the seller, landed them for a nice price.  The return window was still open on the 1060's, so after some hemmin' and hawin, decided to return them.  They were really nice 'phones, and the sonic signature was more like the Alphas than different.  But the Alphas go deeper in the bass, are more resolving in the mids, and most importantly (to me) are quite a bit more dynamic overall, which was one of my nits with the 1060's.  Of course, the Alphas retailed for $1k when new versus the 1060's $300, so the Alphas _better_ sound better.    But that's the extent of my experience, which is obviously extremely limited. So with my usual lack of brevity, when I say "neutral" they're neutral to me, but with a dearth of comparative experience.


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> You mean like this



Yeah, just like that.  Figured it had to work as the Lyr guys have twice as much to blow up as we do.   

Have you tried any other 6C8-G's beyond the Kenrad?  And what are your thoughts on the 6C8-G versus a 6SN7?


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> Yeah, just like that.  Figured it had to work as the Lyr guys have twice as much to blow up as we do.
> 
> Have you tried any other 6C8-G's beyond the Kenrad?  And what are your thoughts on the 6C8-G versus a 6SN7?


The Ken-Rad is the only 6c8-g I have tried thus far and I will have to get back to you with how it compares to the different 6sn7 I have.
1956 Raytheon 6sn7
1971 eflector 6n9s
1958 Foton 6n8s
1957 Sylvania gtb 6sn7


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> @bcowen - Looking forward to your thoughts on the 12AU7 path on the Vali 2, safe travels!



Finally got some time to listen this afternoon, so decided to play with my shiny new 12AU7 adapter.  First in was the 5-star Cifte.  What the !$#@????  A soundstage?  Like you could walk in and around the performers and shake their hands.  I didn't know headphones could do that.  Can they?  Or am I hallucinating?  Whatever, I _liked_ it. A lot. The Cifte had similar characteristics in the Vali to what it does in my big rig components -- extended, airy, detailed treble and dynamic as all get out.  But pretty lean in the lower mids and upper bass. Rather thin where I like, um, ample.  Twiggy versus Angelina Jolie.  The Loki can fix this, but there was a bit of etch on transients too.  Would likely go away with some more break-in time, but that would require patience, and probably won't fix the leanness anyway.  So in went the Telefunken.  Did the same cool soundstage thing, but the bass is really weird.  Almost like it's detached from the rest of the frequency spectrum.  Or lagging behind or something.  Just plain strange.  Maybe a break-in thing too, or maybe the tube I tried is just weird itself.  I have a few more, so I'll do a follow-up with another one at some point.  But with what I heard so far, I figured it was time to quit playing around with the junior varsity and go straight to the big leagues, so in went the Amperex 7316.  Uh-oh.  There's a possibility this may kick the Hytron 5692 (my current fave to this point) back to the storage bin to sit unnoticed and unloved forevermore.  Soundstage is just as incredible as the other two, nice balance across the frequency range, and while I still hear a slight etch it's very slight and almost unnoticeable.  It shares the dynamics of the Cifte, and in the bass it's Angelina after a _really_ big meal. Observations at this point are quite preliminary of course as I need to let the Amperex get some time on it, but _only_ time will tell if it's a flash in the pan or the true new king of the hill.... 
And thanks again to Mr Trev for making me buy this adapter.


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> The Ken-Rad is the only 6c8-g I have tried thus far and I will have to get back to you with how it compares to the different 6sn7 I have.
> 1956 Raytheon 6sn7
> 1971 eflector 6n9s
> 1958 Foton 6n8s
> 1957 Sylvania gtb 6sn7



Thanks!  Look forward to hearing your impressions.


----------



## chef8489 (Mar 12, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Yeah, just like that.  Figured it had to work as the Lyr guys have twice as much to blow up as we do.
> 
> Have you tried any other 6C8-G's beyond the Kenrad?  And what are your thoughts on the 6C8-G versus a 6SN7?


OK comparing the Ken-rad to the  1957 Sylvania gtb 6sn7

The Ken-rad has much better bass reach , fuller thicker bass and thicker lower mids. Drums sound more natural and more present. Sound stage is a little more intimate

The Syvania has more detailed highs and upper mids. Bass still sounds pretty good just not as good as the Ken-rad. Sound stage is a bit wider and on some tracks sounds quite a bit more open as if performed outside compared to indoors as with the Ken-rad. Drums sound good just not quite as good. Guitars sound a bit better on this compared to the Ken-rad. You hear a bit more of the string pluck and resonance of the strings.

1971 reflector 6n9s  Bass is far less. Highs are far more present and a bit too forward for my taste. Makes it almost painful with the LCD2 classic. I am pretty sensitive to highs. It really brightens up these headphones and not my cup of tea.


----------



## chef8489

roshambo said:


> I am really curious about it. Could you describe how the Ken Rads sound in the Vali 2 relative to stock tubes?


I have two of the stock tubes. One is not marked then they sent me a second one marked Sylvania 6bz7.

The stock unmarked tube lacks any highs compared to the Ken-rad and the Bass does not go as deep or hit as hard. The stock tube pretty just has the mids present compared. It is a whole worlds apart.

The Sylvania is a more neutral tube. The highs come through better than the unmarked tube. Better balance on highs mids and bass, but a bit boring as everything is flat. Throw on the Ken Rad and the Bass expand, goes deeper and hits harder. Highs are more detailed and vocals just come out. Sound Stage also expands. Music just comes more alive and not boring. There is a richness and energy there.


----------



## volly

bcowen said:


> Finally got some time to listen this afternoon, so decided to play with my shiny new 12AU7 adapter.  First in was the 5-star Cifte.  What the !$#@????  A soundstage?  Like you could walk in and around the performers and shake their hands.  I didn't know headphones could do that.  Can they?  Or am I hallucinating?  Whatever, I _liked_ it. A lot. The Cifte had similar characteristics in the Vali to what it does in my big rig components -- extended, airy, detailed treble and dynamic as all get out.  But pretty lean in the lower mids and upper bass. Rather thin where I like, um, ample.  Twiggy versus Angelina Jolie.  The Loki can fix this, but there was a bit of etch on transients too.  Would likely go away with some more break-in time, but that would require patience, and probably won't fix the leanness anyway.  So in went the Telefunken.  Did the same cool soundstage thing, but the bass is really weird.  Almost like it's detached from the rest of the frequency spectrum.  Or lagging behind or something.  Just plain strange.  Maybe a break-in thing too, or maybe the tube I tried is just weird itself.  I have a few more, so I'll do a follow-up with another one at some point.  But with what I heard so far, I figured it was time to quit playing around with the junior varsity and go straight to the big leagues, so in went the Amperex 7316.  Uh-oh.  There's a possibility this may kick the Hytron 5692 (my current fave to this point) back to the storage bin to sit unnoticed and unloved forevermore.  Soundstage is just as incredible as the other two, nice balance across the frequency range, and while I still hear a slight etch it's very slight and almost unnoticeable.  It shares the dynamics of the Cifte, and in the bass it's Angelina after a _really_ big meal. Observations at this point are quite preliminary of course as I need to let the Amperex get some time on it, but _only_ time will tell if it's a flash in the pan or the true new king of the hill....
> And thanks again to Mr Trev for making me buy this adapter.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Finally got some time to listen this afternoon, so decided to play with my shiny new 12AU7 adapter.  First in was the 5-star Cifte.  What the !$#@????  A soundstage?  Like you could walk in and around the performers and shake their hands.  I didn't know headphones could do that.  Can they?  Or am I hallucinating?  Whatever, I _liked_ it. A lot. The Cifte had similar characteristics in the Vali to what it does in my big rig components -- extended, airy, detailed treble and dynamic as all get out.  But pretty lean in the lower mids and upper bass. Rather thin where I like, um, ample.  Twiggy versus Angelina Jolie.  The Loki can fix this, but there was a bit of etch on transients too.  Would likely go away with some more break-in time, but that would require patience, and probably won't fix the leanness anyway.  So in went the Telefunken.  Did the same cool soundstage thing, but the bass is really weird.  Almost like it's detached from the rest of the frequency spectrum.  Or lagging behind or something.  Just plain strange.  Maybe a break-in thing too, or maybe the tube I tried is just weird itself.  I have a few more, so I'll do a follow-up with another one at some point.  But with what I heard so far, I figured it was time to quit playing around with the junior varsity and go straight to the big leagues, so in went the Amperex 7316.  Uh-oh.  There's a possibility this may kick the Hytron 5692 (my current fave to this point) back to the storage bin to sit unnoticed and unloved forevermore.  Soundstage is just as incredible as the other two, nice balance across the frequency range, and while I still hear a slight etch it's very slight and almost unnoticeable.  It shares the dynamics of the Cifte, and in the bass it's Angelina after a _really_ big meal. Observations at this point are quite preliminary of course as I need to let the Amperex get some time on it, but _only_ time will tell if it's a flash in the pan or the true new king of the hill....
> And thanks again to Mr Trev for making me buy this adapter.



Cifte? There's a brand I've never heard of. Thought you were going to go for the RCA cleartop first.
A guy I chat with claims the 5814s are even better than the 12au7s. Don't have one myself, but I do have a RCA 6189 that was surprisingly bland in my P1 amps - I'll have to try it in the Vali one day and see if its any happier there


----------



## bcowen (Mar 12, 2018)

Mr Trev said:


> Cifte? There's a brand I've never heard of. Thought you were going to go for the RCA cleartop first.
> A guy I chat with claims the 5814s are even better than the 12au7s. Don't have one myself, but I do have a RCA 6189 that was surprisingly bland in my P1 amps - I'll have to try it in the Vali one day and see if its any happier there



Well, I kinda got out of order.  Duh.  The cleartop is in the Vali playing now, but I haven't listened to it yet. I should have tried it before the Amperex 7316, but organization is not one of marketable traits.    And still more to try after that.  I have several Philips 5814's, but not the _good _Philips...they were made (I think) in the '90's and are pretty nasty sounding. Unfortunately don't have any other than those, and I don't even want to waste time trying them.  Not saying 5814's suck, just those particular 5814's suck.


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


>



Is the sad face denoting pity for the Hytron, or because you just ordered a 12AU7 adapter?


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Well, I kinda got out of order.  Duh.  The cleartop is in the Vali playing now, but I haven't listened to it yet. I should have tried it before the Amperex 7316, but organization is not one of marketable traits.    And still more to try after that.  I have several Philips 5814's, but not the _good _Philips...they were made (I think) in the '90's and are pretty nasty sounding. Unfortunately don't have any other than those, and I don't even want to waste time trying them.  Not saying 5814's suck, just those particular 5814's suck.


Like all things tube you need to get old 5814's. The one's that predated the 12au7.
I remember somebody sometime ago speaking highly about RFT tubes - this was before I got the disease


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Like all things tube you need to get old 5814's. The one's that predated the 12au7.
> I remember somebody sometime ago speaking highly about RFT tubes - this was before I got the disease



Ack on the old.  I have some Philips 12AX7's of the same vintage (90's, maybe late '80's) that are probably the worst sounding tube I've ever heard -- screechy, bright, razor edged, just downright painful to listen to. Ear bleed?  Yup...those tubes might have been the genesis of the term. 

I haven't listened to the RFT's in a very long time.  They were the cat's meow in one of my former preamps, but when I sold it and upgraded, they weren't the best match for the new one.  Still very nice, but I think it was that preamp where the RCA's really strutted their stuff.


----------



## Lekoguy

From what I've read, it seems that the stock tube from Shiit is for Shiit.  I agree.  But, I've wondered if it is the case with the design of the 6BZ7 or just due to the quality of the generic tubes.

To find out, I just ordered a NOS Amperex USA 6BZ7 for comparison.  It's a Grey Plate/Top O Getter with a date code of 75-35 111.  I'm guessing it's a step up from the generic.

Does anyone know how to read the date code?

After it arrives and burns in, I'll report back with my reactions.


----------



## bcowen

Lekoguy said:


> From what I've read, it seems that the stock tube from Shiit is for Shiit.  I agree.  But, I've wondered if it is the case with the design of the 6BZ7 or just due to the quality of the generic tubes.
> 
> To find out, I just ordered a NOS Amperex USA 6BZ7 for comparison.  It's a Grey Plate/Top O Getter with a date code of 75-35 111.  I'm guessing it's a step up from the generic.
> 
> ...



I'm certainly one of those that think the stock tube is pretty schitty.  But I never gave a second thought to trying a different manufacturer.  Duh.  I have some 6DJ8's that sound like garbage, but pop in a true NOS Telefunken and the stars align and life is worth living again.  Perhaps this holds true with the 6BZ7 too.  Be very interested in your thoughts on the Amperex once you get a handle on it.


----------



## volly

Just rolling in a Siemens PCC88 (7Dj8) for the start of the tube rolling week, my...my...my...Sounds very similar to a Telefunken, the midrange is buttery smooth but still nicely detailed and tonally beautiful. Good air and ambiance bordering euphoric, just draws you in. Pairs very nicely with the HD650!

@bcowen - Try one mate, worth your time!!!?


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> Just rolling in a Siemens PCC88 (7Dj8) for the start of the tube rolling week, my...my...my...Sounds very similar to a Telefunken, the midrange is buttery smooth but still nicely detailed and tonally beautiful. Good air and ambiance bordering euphoric, just draws you in. Pairs very nicely with the HD650!
> 
> @bcowen - Try one mate, worth your time!!!?



Hmmmm.  I don't have any of those, either Siemens or Telefunken.  A guy on another site just bought some NOS Tele branded 7DJ8's that have no diamond on the bottom...vendor said they were actually made by Siemens.  Can't speak to the accuracy of that information, but if true it could explain why the Siemens sounds very similar to the Tele.  

My weekend got busier than planned and I've had too little time to listen.  Still have the RCA clear-top 12AU7 playing.  Sounds really nice, but just not quite in the same league as the Amperex 7316.  Both are nicely balanced with extended and airy treble and great dynamics, but the Ampy brings out a wealth of micro-detail and harmonic info in the mids that the RCA just can't quite scavenge up.  Neither have the bottom end of the Hytron 5692, but the Hytron doesn't have the gargantuan soundstage that the 12AU's do.  I think it's time for a mutant tube.    Maybe the 6C8-G?


----------



## ohcrapgorillas

Vali 2 has been burning in continuously for a couple of days now. Out of the box it's flat and rigid as expected _a la_ new tube, I don't have any pre-burnt in 6922 lying around to roll in. I'm on my second album now and it's really bloomed and blossomed, I'm starting to hear that tube liquidity, layering, and that big round soundstage. The stock tube sounds pretty competent and clear so far tonight, if just a touch bright and tizzy. I think there is a little bit of something weird going on at maybe 3-6khz ish but really hard to tell with the HD800, even with SDR. Very subtle effects, and probably still breaking in. 

I am scared of tube rolling after seeing what people do with adapters. I like to go big and be done with it, I like having some options but I rarely switch my main tubes out and usually only for an album or two. Buying tubes on a budget has been such a crapshoot, too. I hear a lot of good things about WE396 (I think). I also think I have seen someone running one of these crazy ass things? That looks legit af.


----------



## Mr Trev

ohcrapgorillas said:


> Vali 2 has been burning in continuously for a couple of days now. Out of the box it's flat and rigid as expected _a la_ new tube, I don't have any pre-burnt in 6922 lying around to roll in. I'm on my second album now and it's really bloomed and blossomed, I'm starting to hear that tube liquidity, layering, and that big round soundstage. The stock tube sounds pretty competent and clear so far tonight, if just a touch bright and tizzy. I think there is a little bit of something weird going on at maybe 3-6khz ish but really hard to tell with the HD800, even with SDR. Very subtle effects, and probably still breaking in.
> 
> I am scared of tube rolling after seeing what people do with adapters. I like to go big and be done with it, I like having some options but I rarely switch my main tubes out and usually only for an album or two. Buying tubes on a budget has been such a crapshoot, too. I hear a lot of good things about WE396 (I think). I also think I have seen someone running one of these crazy ass things? That looks legit af.



That's the attitude! Go big or go home!!. Grab the wackiest looking adapter you can find and don't look back


----------



## volly

_STRUTHHHH_...Schiit Lyr 3 looks amazing! Vali 2 has a bigger brother on the way!


----------



## Mr Trev

Indeed. Being octal based does make for a nice alternative - and no goofy stacks of adapters needed


----------



## volly

Always loved 6sn7 tubes, been waiting for something like the Lyr 3 for awhile now.

Schiit just happened.


----------



## Mr Trev

Just read a post that G1217 is making an adapter for 5670 type tubes now. It's made specifically for their line of amps, but should (could) work in the Schiit. At least we wouldn't have to wait 2 months for the slow boat from China


----------



## bcowen

ohcrapgorillas said:


> Vali 2 has been burning in continuously for a couple of days now. Out of the box it's flat and rigid as expected _a la_ new tube, I don't have any pre-burnt in 6922 lying around to roll in. I'm on my second album now and it's really bloomed and blossomed, I'm starting to hear that tube liquidity, layering, and that big round soundstage. The stock tube sounds pretty competent and clear so far tonight, if just a touch bright and tizzy. I think there is a little bit of something weird going on at maybe 3-6khz ish but really hard to tell with the HD800, even with SDR. Very subtle effects, and probably still breaking in.
> 
> I am scared of tube rolling after seeing what people do with adapters. I like to go big and be done with it, I like having some options but I rarely switch my main tubes out and usually only for an album or two. Buying tubes on a budget has been such a crapshoot, too. I hear a lot of good things about WE396 (I think). I also think I have seen someone running one of these crazy ass things? That looks legit af.



Volly has one (or more?) of those crazy ass things.  Whenever he posts that he's plugging it in, I get worried there will be a calamitous disruption in space-time, and he'll be sucked into an alternate dimension never to be heard from again.  Then who's gonna tell us which 6SN7 is best? 

I, on the other hand, only go with totally normal adapters.


----------



## volly

Haha, I think way back at the start of the thread I remember seeing some eye-opening adapters/tubes being used in the Vali 2. Something akin to a H.R. Giger movie/novel.

@bcowen - Take a gander at the new Lyr 3 mate, http://www.schiit.com/products/lyr-3.


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> Volly has one (or more?) of those crazy ass things.  Whenever he posts that he's plugging it in, I get worried there will be a calamitous disruption in space-time, and he'll be sucked into an alternate dimension never to be heard from again.  Then who's gonna tell us which 6SN7 is best?
> 
> I, on the other hand, only go with totally normal adapters.


I like my 6F8G. Its what is currently in my Vali 2. I have been comparing it to a few of my other octal tubes recently. I need to get some more tubes onther than my late 30s early 40s Ken-Rad


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> Haha, I think way back at the start of the thread I remember seeing some eye-opening adapters/tubes being used in the Vali 2. Something akin to a H.R. Giger movie/novel.
> 
> @bcowen - Take a gander at the new Lyr 3 mate, http://www.schiit.com/products/lyr-3.



Yes, looks pretty sweet.  Except I see 3 insurmountable problems already:

1) It's bigger than the rest of my schiit
2) It costs money
3) All the adapters I've waited months to receive will become paperweights

So....I'm carefully reviewing the budget and deciding if food is _really_ necessary or just a comfort item.


----------



## volly

@chef8489 - 6F8G looks so beautiful in the Vali 2!

@bcowen  - Indeed, your Schiit Stack would be impressive to see mate!


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> I like my 6F8G. Its what is currently in my Vali 2. I have been comparing it to a few of my other octal tubes recently. I need to get some more tubes onther than my late 30s early 40s Ken-Rad



That looks so cool!  I just received an RCA 6C8G today, and have a National Union on the way (~$20 a piece on Ebay).  Adapter not here yet, but should be shortly.  I've never had any plate cap tubes before, so new territory for me.  From other people's comments, it appears that the NOS Tung-Sol is very desirable in this tube type, but the only ones I've seen (so far) are pretty expensive.  And just as soon as I bite the bullet and buy one, Schiit will announce the Vali 3 that's ready for immediate shipment....and uses a 300B.


----------



## chef8489

Doesn't look like they will update the Vali 2 from the video I watched. Let me know how the RCA sound. I need to get more tubes as the Ken Rad is all I have for this adapter.


----------



## volly




----------



## chef8489

300b would look like a hot air balloon on a vali size.


----------



## volly

chef8489 said:


> Doesn't look like they will update the Vali 2 from the video I watched. Let me know how the RCA sound. I need to get more tubes as the Ken Rad is all I have for this adapter.



Yeah, reading Jason's write-up in his Schiit thread on the new Lyr and other forums, looks like the Vali 2 helped pave the way for the new Lyr 3 amp. Heck knows what they'll come up with for a new Asgard, but I saw something very interesting for another Vali 1 proto that Jason was/is working on.


----------



## RustyPitchfork

chef8489 said:


> Doesn't look like they will update the Vali 2 from the video I watched. Let me know how the RCA sound. I need to get more tubes as the Ken Rad is all I have for this adapter.



What video?


----------



## chef8489

RustyPitchfork said:


> What video?


https://www.facebook.com/Schiit/videos/1720440738014542/


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> Doesn't look like they will update the Vali 2 from the video I watched. Let me know how the RCA sound. I need to get more tubes as the Ken Rad is all I have for this adapter.



Will do.  I'll have plenty of time to listen now as I have no March Madness left....


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


>



LOL!!!!

Unfortunately as the 300B is only a single triode, there would need to be two........WAIT!!  Now we're talkin'. The Vali 3-300B Monos!  Talk about channel separation, and soundstage...oh my.  Of course, we'd all need new headphone cables with the input end split into two 1/4" plugs, but such a small price to pay for being able to use the best triode tube ever created.


----------



## ohcrapgorillas

It's funny to me reading these posts and seeing people's minds blown by how much better 6SN7 tubes are than, well, any nine-pin that I've ever heard. I had the same experience putting an adapter on my Crack. I never understood what a 3d soundstage was until I got that adapter.

I have ordered a socket saver as well as a 6DJ8 to 12AU7 converter, I need to get an adapter for 6SN7 too, since I actually have those tubes. After that, tube rolling here seems like madness and chaos. Is there a consensus on the 'best'? Again, I am not a tube roller, I prefer to find something really good and be done with it. I am probably going to pick up a 6SN7 to 7193/CV6/CV3601 adapter, with the two tubes with two wires going up to the top each, I can't imagine this not sounding awesome. FrankenVali indeed.


----------



## chef8489

ohcrapgorillas said:


> It's funny to me reading these posts and seeing people's minds blown by how much better 6SN7 tubes are than, well, any nine-pin that I've ever heard. I had the same experience putting an adapter on my Crack. I never understood what a 3d soundstage was until I got that adapter.
> 
> I have ordered a socket saver as well as a 6DJ8 to 12AU7 converter, I need to get an adapter for 6SN7 too, since I actually have those tubes. After that, tube rolling here seems like madness and chaos. Is there a consensus on the 'best'? Again, I am not a tube roller, I prefer to find something really good and be done with it. I am probably going to pick up a 6SN7 to 7193/CV6/CV3601 adapter, with the two tubes with two wires going up to the top each, I can't imagine this not sounding awesome. FrankenVali indeed.


I still think the 70s and 80s era Russian 6n3p-e are some of the best tubes I have heard on the vali. I think I like it better than most of my octal tubes.


----------



## Lekoguy

chef8489 said:


> I still think the 70s and 80s era Russian 6n3p-e are some of the best tubes I have heard on the vali. I think I like it better than most of my octal tubes.


I am also partial to the Russian 6N3P-E tubes.


----------



## Mr Trev

@ohcrapgorillas Since you're getting the adapters just get a TS round plate 6sn7 and be done with it. Just ignore the fact the tube will probably cost more than the amp…

I'll agree the Reflektor 6n3p-e I have is pretty nice, but so is the mouse ear 6sn7 and Yugofunken 12au7


----------



## chef8489

What cans does everyone use for their tube rolling? In the past I used my k7xx to test. Recently I picked up my Audeze LCD2C and the synergy is just amazing. I sold all my other cans as I love these so much.


----------



## Mr Trev

chef8489 said:


> What cans does everyone use for their tube rolling? In the past I used my k7xx to test. Recently I picked up my Audeze LCD2C and the synergy is just amazing. I sold all my other cans as I love these so much.



I swap between my HE400i and Fidelio X2 (haven't touched my SR125 in a while). I've also been pretty impressed at how well IEMs sound with the Vali


----------



## RustyPitchfork

chef8489 said:


> What cans does everyone use for their tube rolling? In the past I used my k7xx to test. Recently I picked up my Audeze LCD2C and the synergy is just amazing. I sold all my other cans as I love these so much.



Man, my Kxx's have sat in a drawer for a long time. M1060's, DT880's (250ohm), and E-Mu (Teaks) with Ebony Cups. Have been debating on picking up some Sennheiser 600 series, and those LCD2C's look amazing... and I have been thinking about replacing the M1060's with a pair.


----------



## chef8489

RustyPitchfork said:


> Man, my Kxx's have sat in a drawer for a long time. M1060's, DT880's (250ohm), and E-Mu (Teaks) with Ebony Cups. Have been debating on picking up some Sennheiser 600 series, and those LCD2C's look amazing... and I have been thinking about replacing the M1060's with a pair.


Reason why I used the k7xx is they revealed the differences in the tubes really well. My LCD2C while colored a little, are still fairly neutral, but very detailed compared to the k7xx. I can still use them for comparing the differences in tubes. With my th-x00 purpleheart even with teak cups were not so good for this nor were the hd650.


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> I still think the 70s and 80s era Russian 6n3p-e are some of the best tubes I have heard on the vali. I think I like it better than most of my octal tubes.



I very much like the Reflector 6N3PE's.  But the mailman was busy today and brought me some 60's Foton 6N3PE's, a National Union 6C8-G, and the 6C8-G adapter.  I need to buy another Vali just to break all this schiit in.    Glad I got 4 of the Fotons.  1 is DOA (on the left...it's gassy as can be seen by the grayish color of the getter flash), 2 have badly mismatched triodes, but fortunately the last one tests out perfectly with high transconductance and almost identical triode outputs.  I'll be real bummed if the good one sounds really, really good, 'cause then I'll have to buy more....from another seller obviously.  And now I can't find the plate cap lead for my tester, so I haven't been able to test the 6C8-G's yet.  Don't have a clue where it is, as I've never used it before.  Might just have to test them in the Vali, however horrible that may be.  Why do things have to be so hard?


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> Just rolling in a Siemens PCC88 (7Dj8) for the start of the tube rolling week, my...my...my...Sounds very similar to a Telefunken, the midrange is buttery smooth but still nicely detailed and tonally beautiful. Good air and ambiance bordering euphoric, just draws you in. Pairs very nicely with the HD650!
> 
> @bcowen - Try one mate, worth your time!!!?



So Volly, inquiring minds want to know:  if you were banished to a desert island tomorrow and could only take one tube to live with happily ever after, which would it be: the Telefunken 6DJ8, or the Siemens 7DJ8?


----------



## volly

bcowen said:


> So Volly, inquiring minds want to know:  if you were banished to a desert island tomorrow and could only take one tube to live with happily ever after, which would it be: the Telefunken 6DJ8, or the Siemens 7DJ8?


Mate, tough choice. But both are PCC88 (7Dj8), both are excellent sounding tubes. 

TL;DR.
Telefunken for it's technical prowess but jeez the Siemens sounds beautiful with the HD650's right now!


----------



## bcowen

And now a public service announcement on the importance of cleaning tube pins for those that may be new to the rolling game.  Pic below is the crud from one (just one) of the 6C8-G's I just bought from an Ebay seller (sorry for the fuzzy photo).  The pins didn't look any more cruddy visibly than most NOS tubes, but you can see what came off them using Caig Deoxit followed by an alcohol "rinse."  Imagine the current from the socket having to flow through all of that to get to the tube. Horrors!


----------



## bcowen

New tubes first impressions:

60's Foton 6N3P:  Wow.  Nice sounding tube.  A significant step up on the more recent manufacture Reflektor 6N3PE.  Much has been said about the long break-in (100+ hours) required on most Russian tubes, and I haven't gotten anywhere close yet. On first fire-up, it was pretty sterile and lacking any extension up top or down low.  After 8 hours, it was quite listenable.  20 hours and it's sounding, well honestly,it's sounding pretty incredible for an $8 Russian tube.  Doesn't have the bass whomp (maybe a "yet" thing) of the Hytron 5692, but the bass is better defined.  And the treble is probably the sweetest and smoothest of any tube I've tried so far.  Doesn't sound closed-in or rolled off, just a total absence of fatigue even with the volume cranked.  Mr. Trev, this is a hard rocker and metalhead's tube of the day...max jam, no bleed. 

National Union 6C8-G: On first fire-up, wow.  How can any tube sound_ this_ bad?  Hashy, no bass, rolled-off treble that was still somehow irritating and fatiguing...just plain yuck.  I almost yanked it out and said the hell with it.  Glad I didn't.  After a couple hours, the bass started to fill in and the treble smoothed considerably.  Now at the ~20 hour mark, it's actually starting to sound pretty nice.  Still a ways from contention for my (personal) top 3, but time will tell.  It has one characteristic that's pretty neat -- I'm able to make out some lyrics in songs that I've never been able to before.  Detail, I guess?  As I was just coming off a Marilyn Manson binge while listening to the Foton, this was really bad timing as some of his lyrics are best left unheard.  That dude has some seriously mutated brain cells.  And living here in the good 'ol US bible belt, I now feel like I need to look around nervously, lock the doors, and draw the drapes before I click play.  

Haven't given the RCA 6C8-G a whirl yet...it's next.

My current top 3 (in order):

'63 CBS/Hytron 5692 (6SN7 adapter required)
'68 Amperex 7316 (12AU7 adapter required)
60's Telefunken 6DJ8 (no adapter required)

The Hytron still evokes giggles and goose-bumps with rock and metal the way it hammers out the bass notes.  The Amperex has this huuuuuuuge soundstage, and is awesome with classical and close-miked small ensemble performances.  I need one of those 2-tube Frank-en-verter contraptions, except with a switch to choose between one of the two tubes plugged in.  

Potential de-throners:
60's Foton 6N3P -- I'd put this tube at #4 right now, but _if_ the bass gains some balls with more play time, it's possible this tube could move to #1.  An $8 tube in front of the current placeholders at $100+ each? Hmmmm.  But still an "if" right now. 
'64 Tesla 6CC42 -- Nicely detailed, very dynamic. Still "hot" sounding right now at ~20 hours. If the treble mellows.....


----------



## volly

bcowen said:


> New tubes first impressions:
> 
> 60's Foton 6N3P:  Wow.  Nice sounding tube.  A significant step up on the more recent manufacture Reflektor 6N3PE.  Much has been said about the long break-in (100+ hours) required on most Russian tubes, and I haven't gotten anywhere close yet. On first fire-up, it was pretty sterile and lacking any extension up top or down low.  After 8 hours, it was quite listenable.  20 hours and it's sounding, well honestly,it's sounding pretty incredible for an $8 Russian tube.  Doesn't have the bass whomp (maybe a "yet" thing) of the Hytron 5692, but the bass is better defined.  And the treble is probably the sweetest and smoothest of any tube I've tried so far.  Doesn't sound closed-in or rolled off, just a total absence of fatigue even with the volume cranked.  Mr. Trev, this is a hard rocker and metalhead's tube of the day...max jam, no bleed.
> 
> ...


Valuable info here, the Foton's have caught my attention! 

How long did the Foton's take to come in to your part of the world @bcowen ?


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> Valuable info here, the Foton's have caught my attention!
> 
> How long did the Foton's take to come in to your part of the world @bcowen ?



Hey Volly, took 2.5 weeks to get here.  Seller shipped the day after I ordered, and packaged the tubes quite well. But it's also apparent this seller isn't testing them.  The gassy tube may have popped a leak during shipment (it happens), but the two with mismatched triodes are so far off that even basic testing should have kicked them out.  Of course, at the prices he's selling them for, you can't get too picky.   

https://www.ebay.com/itm/222892595247


----------



## volly

Ahhh...bugger, T'is the luck of the draw sometimes. But I'm glad about your first impressions on the Foton's, should be interesting to see once they've settled in for ya!


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> New tubes first impressions:
> 
> 60's Foton 6N3P:  Wow.  Nice sounding tube.  A significant step up on the more recent manufacture Reflektor 6N3PE.  Much has been said about the long break-in (100+ hours) required on most Russian tubes, and I haven't gotten anywhere close yet. On first fire-up, it was pretty sterile and lacking any extension up top or down low.  After 8 hours, it was quite listenable.  20 hours and it's sounding, well honestly,it's sounding pretty incredible for an $8 Russian tube.  Doesn't have the bass whomp (maybe a "yet" thing) of the Hytron 5692, but the bass is better defined.  And the treble is probably the sweetest and smoothest of any tube I've tried so far.  Doesn't sound closed-in or rolled off, just a total absence of fatigue even with the volume cranked.  Mr. Trev, this is a hard rocker and metalhead's tube of the day...max jam, no bleed.
> 
> ...



When you say "more recent manufacture Reflektor 6N3PE" how recent are we talking? The one I got is mid - late 70s.
I find the Vokshod 6n23 I have is pretty decent with metal and other loud obnoxious music - for those times I need to drown out "the voices". That's the one place the Yugofunken or the Mouse Ear fall behind IMO. They are just a little too laid back/refined/smooth for aggressive music styles. Ambient on the other hand…


----------



## Lekoguy

> It's funny to me reading these posts and seeing people's minds blown by how much better 6SN7 tubes are than, well, any nine-pin that I've ever heard.



Does anyone have any experience with the reissued Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> When you say "more recent manufacture Reflektor 6N3PE" how recent are we talking? The one I got is mid - late 70s.
> I find the Vokshod 6n23 I have is pretty decent with metal and other loud obnoxious music - for those times I need to drown out "the voices". That's the one place the Yugofunken or the Mouse Ear fall behind IMO. They are just a little too laid back/refined/smooth for aggressive music styles. Ambient on the other hand…



I believe my Reflektors are October 1990..."9010" under the tube number.  The purple stamp on the other side has 90 on one side of the triangle, and XI on the other.  I'm pretty sure that stamp is the military acceptance stamp indicating the date it was accepted: 1990 being the year, and XI (November) being the month, which would make sense given the manufacture date.  But I'm not 100% positive on this, so if someone has better info than I do, please feel free to correct me.


----------



## bcowen

Lekoguy said:


> Does anyone have any experience with the reissued Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB?



I have not tried any of the new ones.  I did, however, just order some 1960 Foton 6N8S tubes.  If they sound anywhere near as good as the Foton 6N3P's, I'll be a happy camper at a little over $4 a tube.  Worst case, if Volly keeps gushing over the Lyr 3 and ends up making me buy one, I'll be all set.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/202080567078


----------



## Lekoguy

bcowen said:


> I have not tried any of the new ones.  I did, however, just order some 1960 Foton 6N8S tubes.  If they sound anywhere near as good as the Foton 6N3P's, I'll be a happy camper at a little over $4 a tube.  Worst case, if Volly keeps gushing over the Lyr 3 and ends up making me buy one, I'll be all set.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/202080567078


Thanks for the link.  I'll check it out.

Is Volly still breathing hot & heavy?


----------



## volly (Mar 27, 2018)

Mate, just been lurking over at the Lyr 3 threads since the release. It's looking to be a sure upgrade over the Vali 2!

I was about to grab a New Production TungSol but held off due to the Lyr 3.

I know power isn't everything when it comes to amps but, dayummmm:

Lyr 3:
Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 9.0W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 6.0W RMS per channel (7.5W at <1% THD typical, one channel driven)
Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 4.0W RMS per channel <--------- @bcowen (Enough power for your Primes??) 
Maximum Power, 300 ohms: 900mW RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 600 ohms: 450mW RMS per channel

Probably the last tube I get for the Vali 2 would be a 1964 Raytheon 5670 tube which I can source locally for a fair price but we'll see.


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> Mate, just been lurking over at the Lyr 3 threads since the release. It's looking to be a sure upgrade over the Vali 2!
> 
> I was about to grab a New Production TungSol but held off due to the Lyr 3.
> 
> ...



LOL!  I'm guessing 4 watts would probably shred the Prime's diaphragms into confetti.  On low gain. 

I like the single tube design, and I like the IEC socket instead of utilizing a wall wart.

So, Volly, the question is who's going to break first, me or you?


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I have not tried any of the new ones.  I did, however, just order some 1960 Foton 6N8S tubes.  If they sound anywhere near as good as the Foton 6N3P's, I'll be a happy camper at a little over $4 a tube.  Worst case, if Volly keeps gushing over the Lyr 3 and ends up making me buy one, I'll be all set.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/202080567078



I got one of those. Sounds pretty good. Similar construction type to a "mouse ear". Definitely worth the $6 CAD I paid


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> Mate, just been lurking over at the Lyr 3 threads since the release. It's looking to be a sure upgrade over the Vali 2!
> 
> I was about to grab a New Production TungSol but held off due to the Lyr 3.
> 
> ...



Volly, you win.  I concede.  I'm a loser.  My willpower is wimpy and laughable.  Ordered a Lyr 3 today.  Shrug.  Now I gotta make a longer pair of interconnects, and I gotta make a power cord, and I gotta figure out how to stack schiit of different sizes.  But I'm a glass-half-full kind of person, and the silver lining is that I don't need to buy any more adapters.   Don't know when I'll receive it, but hoping by the end of next week.  Looks like the Vali will be demoted to a 6SN7 tube breaker-inner thingie.  Of course, I'm assuming the Lyr will sound better....what if it doesn't?


----------



## Lekoguy

bcowen said:


> I'm assuming the Lyr will sound better....what if it doesn't?



This should be very interesting !!!
️


----------



## volly

bcowen said:


> Volly, you win.  I concede.  I'm a loser.  My willpower is wimpy and laughable.  Ordered a Lyr 3 today.  Shrug.  Now I gotta make a longer pair of interconnects, and I gotta make a power cord, and I gotta figure out how to stack schiit of different sizes.  But I'm a glass-half-full kind of person, and the silver lining is that I don't need to buy any more adapters.   Don't know when I'll receive it, but hoping by the end of next week.  Looks like the Vali will be demoted to a 6SN7 tube breaker-inner thingie.  Of course, I'm assuming the Lyr will sound better....what if it doesn't?


Mate, congratulations!!! 

Looks like people Down Under won't be seeing this amp for another month. 

Watch for 6sN7 tubes price rise in the coming months/years, but at least you've come prepared for the Apocalypse @bcowen. (Might even send you the Shunguang Treasure which I had planned for my Lyr 3!) 

I believe the Alpha Primes scale quite well and will drink up that juice/power and turn water in to the wine. T50 planar drives love that sweet nectar. Judging by first impressions the Lyr 3 is a very clear and dynamic amp, I dare say it will be another milestone for you @bcowen. By all accounts you're a tube guy through and through, I'll be eager to hear your colouful impressions when the Lyr 3 comes in and you start your 6sN7 journey in to audio nirvana!  

One problem I'm finding with schiit is that you can start to accumulate too much Schiit of all different sizes. I got a Modi/Vali2 and Bifrost/Asgard stack. Starting to see towers and towers of Schiit pop up on my desk. Going forward I'd be consolidating all this Schiit and settle down with a Lyr3/Jot with the built-in Dac. I'm starting see that a single piece of Schiit is easier to live with than the piles and piles of Schiit.

Did you get any extra's with the Lyr 3 mate? Optional Dac? extra tubes....Lisst tubes?

Good idea on keeping tubes warm via the Vali 2 though!

I personally went with a Massdrop MCTH yesterday, that's going to pair with my Theta Cobalt 307 Dac. Would of had the Lyr 3 but looks like there's a bit of a wait: _*230VAC Lyr 3s are anticipated to ship 4/30. Sorry for the delay. *_Good thing the MCTH uses a 6922 tube variant but not sure of the flexibility unlike the Vali 2.


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> Mate, congratulations!!!
> 
> Looks like people Down Under won't be seeing this amp for another month.
> 
> ...



Sorry to hear about the wait on your end.  But I am quite interested in your thoughts on the MCTH when you get it, especially vis-a-vis the Vali.  Nicely priced, and from the photos looks to be a very well constructed unit.

Fortunately I have a wad of 6SN7's to play with, and can hopefully scrounge up enough of whatever little willpower I have to keep from buying more.    I just looked at the asking price for the Hytron 5692's on Ebay and couldn't believe it.  $200/pair without even being advertised as NOS.  Sheez.  I only need to sell a couple pairs to pay for the Lyr, LOL!  Think it may be time to cull through them and jettison some of the excess.  Then I'll have money to buy more 6SN....ooops,  Crap.  Nevermind.    But to your point, I think you're right that prices may start going up.  

I got the poor man's Lyr...just the amp, no modules, and the Russkie tube.  I probably should have sprung the extra few dollars on the new Tung-Sol just to see what it sounds like, but figured that out after I'd already submitted the order.  No LISST either.  I've never heard how they sound so I'm just making assumptions, but from the outside looking in it seems it's just replacing the tube with a solid state device, which negates the point of having the tube.  In any event, it didn't pique my curiosity enough to spend the extra.

So now the waiting starts.  Hope it isn't a long one.  In the meantime I'll have time to put a cord and some I/C's together and cook 'em for 4 or 5 days so they're ready and waiting.


----------



## bcowen

WooHoo!!!!!  Expected delivery next Thursday.


----------



## volly

bcowen said:


> WooHoo!!!!!  Expected delivery next Thursday.


Thursday night at @bcowen place, after listening to his new amp:
 
Good luck mate, she's a beauty!


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> Thursday night at @bcowen place, after listening to his new amp:
> 
> Good luck mate, she's a beauty!




LOL!!  I'm _hoping_ it's like that.   Or this:


----------



## volly

Struttthhhh! That's kinky.

Pre-out from Vali 2 in to the Lyr 3!


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> Struttthhhh! That's kinky.
> 
> Pre-out from Vali 2 in to the Lyr 3!



Ha!  That'd be the ticket for really inefficient 'phones:  twice the volume.


----------



## AudioChaosx

If anyone is interested in a few single 6922's please PM me. I have one too many tubes I'm looking to get rid of.
I also have this rare Philips Miniwatt PCC88 (7DJ8) D-getter pinched waist Holland early 50s
*Code on tube: DJ2 delta 7G  
Number on top of tube: 173*


----------



## chef8489

I have a 1974 Voskhod 6N1P installed right now. Once it gets dark I will get even darker pics.


----------



## volly

@chef8489 - Very nice, I got one of those. They glow like a nuclear rod, decent tube and cheap as chips. How's the noise floor with your 6N1p? Mine has that bit of a hiss. I hear that these tubes pull that little bit more juice which always made me concerned for the Vali 2 but she's going strong.


----------



## chef8489 (Apr 2, 2018)

volly said:


> @chef8489 - Very nice, I got one of those. They glow like a nuclear rod, decent tube and cheap as chips. How's the noise floor with your 6N1p? Mine has that bit of a hiss. I hear that these tubes pull that little bit more juice which always made me concerned for the Vali 2 but she's going strong.


No hiss, but when I first put it in there was a bit of a hum. I have a second tube. I will let the first burn in and see how it goes. Here is the tube now that it is dark.


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> No hiss, but when I first put it in there was a bit of a hum. I have a second tube. I will let the first burn in and see how it goes. Here is the tube now that it is dark.



Man, those are _beautiful_ photos.  You obviously have 1) something better than an iPhone for a camera, or 2) way, way more skill with an iPhone than me.  Or maybe both.


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> Man, those are _beautiful_ photos.  You obviously have 1) something better than an iPhone for a camera, or 2) way, way more skill with an iPhone than me.  Or maybe both.


Just a galaxy s9 and auto. Not played with the pro settings much yet.


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> @chef8489 - Very nice, I got one of those. They glow like a nuclear rod, decent tube and cheap as chips. How's the noise floor with your 6N1p? Mine has that bit of a hiss. I hear that these tubes pull that little bit more juice which always made me concerned for the Vali 2 but she's going strong.



Of all the tubes I've tried so far, I haven't run across a noisy/hissy tube until now -- the Tesla 6CC42.  Not terrible, but a faint low-level hiss that made me go "what's _that_?"  I've attributed the silent background to having everything plugged into a pair of Shunyata Hydras, but maybe it's not that and I've just been lucky so far.


----------



## volly

@bcowen - Wowa, now we're talking. Does the Hydra clean up the power much over in your neck of the woods?


----------



## chef8489

I run everything through a battery backup and avr.


----------



## volly

Been thinking about getting one, we get black/brown outs down our away about 5 times a year. Lost a  PSU in my computer due to a terrible surge a few years back. Should just pull the trigger, been putting it off for other audio gear LOL.


----------



## Mr Trev

chef8489 said:


> No hiss, but when I first put it in there was a bit of a hum. I have a second tube. I will let the first burn in and see how it goes. Here is the tube now that it is dark.



Now there's a good looking tube. Is that a socket saver or are you actually using an adapter with it?


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> @bcowen - Wowa, now we're talking. Does the Hydra clean up the power much over in your neck of the woods?



Yes, it makes a pretty nice difference. I have one of their larger units in the big rig....the two in the headphone rig are hand-me-downs.  They do a great job of getting rid of power line nasties without detrimental effects in other areas.  All gain, no pain.     Although the Hydras have pretty robust surge/spike protection, they don't have battery back-up capability, so not the right unit for dealing with black/brownouts if that's a necessity.  Fortunately don't have much issue with those problems around here.


----------



## chef8489

Mr Trev said:


> Now there's a good looking tube. Is that a socket saver or are you actually using an adapter with it?


The 6n1p and 6n23p is the same pin as a 6922 so it is just a socket saver. When i use 6n3p-e i need an adapter.


----------



## bcowen

There be Lyr here!  

Now I just gotta get Chef to teach me how to take a decent picture.


----------



## Lekoguy

bcowen said:


> There be Lyr here!
> 
> Now I just gotta get Chef to teach me how to take a decent picture.


Oh My!

It's the Leaning Tower of Schiit.


----------



## bcowen

Lekoguy said:


> Oh My!
> 
> It's the Leaning Tower of Schiit.



LOL!!  What's leaning is me and my crappy photography skills.  No leaning of my schiit.


----------



## volly

@bcowen - Happy for ya big fella!!

Send us a PM on your thoughts on the Lyr 3 if you want!

What tube you got rolling first mate?

P.s Schiit needs another drop-down option on LED's for their products LOL! With/Without


----------



## ZenErik

I've had a Vali 2 for a while. Great amp for the price. I found that the stock 6BZ7 tube has piercing sibilance. It made a lot of the dialog in the game I'm playing painful to listen to. Swapped it out for an Electro-Harmonix 6CG7 and all is well. Not quite as nice sounding as the Encore, but for 16x less it's certainly a great value.

One odd thing I noticed that may be related to the dirty power in my house is that the stock tube has a low noise floor on both low and high gain. the 6CG7 only has a low noise floor on low gain. On high gain there's a very loud ground loop sounding hum.


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> @bcowen - Happy for ya big fella!!
> 
> Send us a PM on your thoughts on the Lyr 3 if you want!
> 
> ...



Thanks, Volly!  Hope I'm happy too.    First listen a little while ago was promising, but started chewin' on my ears a bit.  I've got a Hytron 6SN7GT (not 5692) in there right now with no play time on it.  I'll give it another listen tomorrow after about 36 hours of break-in on both the Lyr and the tube and see what's up.  The Vali was the same when it was brand new.  Took it a while to smooth out and serve up the enjoyable tunes, and I'm optimistic I'm just hearing the same with Lyr.  I'll be sure and post my impressions once everything settles down.


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> Thanks, Volly!  Hope I'm happy too.    First listen a little while ago was promising, but started chewin' on my ears a bit.  I've got a Hytron 6SN7GT (not 5692) in there right now with no play time on it.  I'll give it another listen tomorrow after about 36 hours of break-in on both the Lyr and the tube and see what's up.  The Vali was the same when it was brand new.  Took it a while to smooth out and serve up the enjoyable tunes, and I'm optimistic I'm just hearing the same with Lyr.  I'll be sure and post my impressions once everything settles down.


I am quite curious how the Lyr 3 with multibit compares to the vali 2 with  modi 2 multibit. Its not like i can upgrade anytime soon.


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> I am quite curious how the Lyr 3 with multibit compares to the vali 2 with  modi 2 multibit. Its not like i can upgrade anytime soon.



Yeah, me too.  I got the barebones Lyr, and kinda wondered if I should have added the DAC.  One less box, one less interconnection, one less power cord. Could probably sell the Vali2 and Modi Multi for enough to easily cover the additional cost.  Oh well.  Not sure I want to get rid of the Vali, as it's doing a nice job breaking in 6SN7's for me.    I can always add the multibit card to the Lyr later...


----------



## ohcrapgorillas

Does anyone know if the Garage1217 12AU7 to 6SN7 adapter can be used directly in the Vali 2, or do I need an in-between 6DJ8 to 12AU7 adapter? The description on the website says that 6DJ8 will work, but when I emailed the guy in charge he sent this in response

"It depends on what voltage the amplifier you are using is running. If it is actually 12v then it is a no go. If it is 6.3V using the center tap for 12au7, then it can work for 6dj8 too. "

Does anyone know what voltage the Vali 2 runs here? I'm asking because it appears my 6DJ8 to 12AU7 adapter got sent to my old address and I doubt I'll ever see it. I already have the G1217 adapter for use with my Crack, but if it could pull double-duty with the Vali 2 that would be excellent. And I am IMPATIENT to move on from the stock tube! I have a handful of 12AU7 and 6SN7 sitting around just waiting to be useful again....


----------



## Mr Trev

ohcrapgorillas said:


> Does anyone know if the Garage1217 12AU7 to 6SN7 adapter can be used directly in the Vali 2, or do I need an in-between 6DJ8 to 12AU7 adapter? The description on the website says that 6DJ8 will work, but when I emailed the guy in charge he sent this in response
> 
> "It depends on what voltage the amplifier you are using is running. If it is actually 12v then it is a no go. If it is 6.3V using the center tap for 12au7, then it can work for 6dj8 too. "
> 
> Does anyone know what voltage the Vali 2 runs here? I'm asking because it appears my 6DJ8 to 12AU7 adapter got sent to my old address and I doubt I'll ever see it. I already have the G1217 adapter for use with my Crack, but if it could pull double-duty with the Vali 2 that would be excellent. And I am IMPATIENT to move on from the stock tube! I have a handful of 12AU7 and 6SN7 sitting around just waiting to be useful again....



The Vali does run 6v heaters. But since the 12au7 tubes needs to be wired differently, it might not be compatible directly. To be clear, I don't have the G1217 adapter so I can only speculate, but from the info I've gathered you'd still need a 12au7 to 6dj8 adapter between the amp and the G1217 adapter. I grabbed a one of those 6sn7 to 12au7 adapters off ebay and for kicks tried it directly into the V2 (needed to remove the top cover for it to fit). I got nothing. The tube wouldn't even light due to the heaters being connected to different pins - I needed a 12au7 adapter too. That said if you already have a bunch of 12au7 tubes why not buy a 12au7 adapter too. I'm sure that double adapting can create issues with noise, etc. but you'd still need to use a socket saver at the least since none of the 6sn7 adapters will physically fit into the V2 without removing/modding the case.

I suppose you could always remove the top of the amp and try plugging in the g1217 adapter and tube like I did and see if it works. In theory nothing bad should to either the tube or amp if it doesn't


----------



## chef8489 (Apr 12, 2018)

Mr Trev said:


> The Vali does run 6v heaters. But since the 12au7 tubes needs to be wired differently, it might not be compatible directly. To be clear, I don't have the G1217 adapter so I can only speculate, but from the info I've gathered you'd still need a 12au7 to 6dj8 adapter between the amp and the G1217 adapter. I grabbed a one of those 6sn7 to 12au7 adapters off ebay and for kicks tried it directly into the V2 (needed to remove the top cover for it to fit). I got nothing. The tube wouldn't even light due to the heaters being connected to different pins - I needed a 12au7 adapter too. That said if you already have a bunch of 12au7 tubes why not buy a 12au7 adapter too. I'm sure that double adapting can create issues with noise, etc. but you'd still need to use a socket saver at the least since none of the 6sn7 adapters will physically fit into the V2 without removing/modding the case.
> 
> I suppose you could always remove the top of the amp and try plugging in the g1217 adapter and tube like I did and see if it works. In theory nothing bad should to either the tube or amp if it doesn't


I use 6sn7 fine with my vali 2. You use a socket saver then a 6sn7 to ecc88 adapter.


----------



## Mr Trev

chef8489 said:


> I use 6sn7 fine with my vali 2. You use a socket saver then a 6sn7 to ecc88 adapter.



I use that 12au7 adapter instead of the socket saver and went for a 6sn7->12au7 type adapter. Whether @ohcrapgorillas would need to use the same 12au7->6dj8 adapter I need is the question. I suspect those g1217 adapter probably will (even if for no other reason than sizing - 6sn7 tubes have a much bigger diameter and won't fit the case, like your pic shows)


----------



## ohcrapgorillas

It did not work.  sad trombone

I did end up ordering a new pair of adapters for 6SN7 and 12AU7 but I will have to bear with the stock tube while I wait for them to arrive from Hong Kong. I have the socket savers already.


----------



## Mr Trev

I thought that might be the case.

Here's a bit more info on how the adapters are wired to explain things…
http://diyah.boards.net/thread/1712/12v-tubes-on-6v-amp?page=2


----------



## chef8489

I have a lot of time with the Reflektor 6m3p-3 and was sent a Foton 6n3p so I could compare the two. Thanks @bcowen I truly appreciate it. It is burning in a bit but here are some pics.


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> I have a lot of time with the Reflektor 6m3p-3 and was sent a Foton 6n3p so I could compare the two. Thanks @bcowen I truly appreciate it. It is burning in a bit but here are some pics.



Wow!  Once again, some beautiful pics, Chef.  I'm pretty sure the Foton didn't look anywhere near that good in my Vali.    We're all eager to hear what you think of it once it gets some burn time.

On an unrelated note, has anyone seen @volly?  Has he gone missing?  Maybe he's in such sonic bliss with his new amp that computers and forums have become irrelevant?


----------



## volly

All good @bcowen, mate this amp I tells ya!! 

Funny thing, just rolled in the Canadian 6Bz7 stock tube that came with the Vali 2 in to the MCTH, ummmm wowa...like...nobody in this thread loved that tube in the Vali 2 but it sounds so nice in the MCTH. Philips SQ not so good in the MCTH but the EH 6922 tube that comes stock with the MCTH is a delightful tube and well implemented in this amp. Going to try it in the Vali 2 if I can spare a moment from the MCTH. I wonder if it's worth springing for the Gold pin version?

6Sn7 tube prices are starting to inflate all thanks to Lyr 3 owners?!?


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> All good @bcowen, mate this amp I tells ya!!
> 
> Funny thing, just rolled in the Canadian 6Bz7 stock tube that came with the Vali 2 in to the MCTH, ummmm wowa...like...nobody in this thread loved that tube in the Vali 2 but it sounds so nice in the MCTH. Philips SQ not so good in the MCTH but the EH 6922 tube that comes stock with the MCTH is a delightful tube and well implemented in this amp. Going to try it in the Vali 2 if I can spare a moment from the MCTH. I wonder if it's worth springing for the Gold pin version?
> 
> 6Sn7 tube prices are starting to inflate all thanks to Lyr 3 owners?!?



Uh-oh.  Looks like 6BZ7 prices are going to inflate here shortly.   Lots of RCA's, GE's, Raytheons, Sylvanias available on Ebay....for cheap.  Maybe I need an adapter for the Lyr3.


----------



## chef8489

Threw on the Jan 5670w tonight to compare to the two 6n3p I have and thought I would post some pics as this is the most tube glow I get out of any of my tubes.


----------



## volly

Looks bloody marvelous! How does it so far @chef8489?


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> Threw on the Jan 5670w tonight to compare to the two 6n3p I have and thought I would post some pics as this is the most tube glow I get out of any of my tubes.



More tube porn.  I love it!!


----------



## chef8489 (Apr 15, 2018)

volly said:


> Looks bloody marvelous! How does it so far @chef8489?


The mids and and bass are better on the 6n3p the treble is more prevalent and detailed on the 5670w with the mids a little more recessed and blend in with the bass a bit.
5670w ,ales the Lcd2c more neutral
6n3p make the bass hit harder and allow the mids and bass to come through better on the LCD2C


----------



## Condocondor

Anyone tried this in their Vali2?  Its a 5760 with a machined 6922 adapter with noise filtration of heater supply? 

https://www.musicdirect.com/tubes/ifi-nos-5670-6922-vacuum-tubes-pr


----------



## chef8489 (Apr 19, 2018)

Condocondor said:


> Anyone tried this in their Vali2?  Its a 5760 with a machined 6922 adapter with noise filtration of heater supply?
> 
> https://www.musicdirect.com/tubes/ifi-nos-5670-6922-vacuum-tubes-pr


I would just get a standard ge jan 5670 w and an adapter. It will allow you more options to roll other tubes like the 6n3p and a bunch other with the same pins. Especially since it is only a 10.00 tube.


----------



## volly

Condocondor said:


> Anyone tried this in their Vali2?  Its a 5760 with a machined 6922 adapter with noise filtration of heater supply?
> 
> https://www.musicdirect.com/tubes/ifi-nos-5670-6922-vacuum-tubes-pr


I came across this other day as well, looks interesting! ifi don't muck about so it should be interesting. 1 review said they love it in their Mj2.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 19, 2018)

I agree with Chef on this.  Before I say anything else though, I haven't tried this iFi device, and I haven't even tried a GE 5670, so take this with a large grain of salt, FWIW, YMMV, etc.

GE 5670's are cheap -- very cheap relative to the other 5670/396/2C51's available out there.  Wonder why.  Either there' s a super huge supply of them, or they just don't sound very good.  I've personally never been able to love _*any*_ GE tube I've tried, but that's just me.  The noise filtration in this thing is just a capacitor run across the heater supply.  Maybe that helps, maybe not, but a $0.20 capacitor doesn't much help justify the high price.  I guess what set me off in reading the description is the "rejuvenation" process which is the biggest load of crap I've read in a long time.  All the hundreds of thousands of 40/50/60 year old NOS tubes that have been put into service over the past couple decades are somehow destined to an early death because they weren't "rejuvenated" properly?  LOL!

(note: this isn't meant as a slag on iFi...I have a couple of their products that I'm very happy with.  It's just the marketing blather on this particular item that set off my BS detector )


----------



## volly

I might pull the trigger on a pair of Bugle boys, never actually tried one yet!

@bcowen, have you had anymore time with the Foton, still worth a look in to?


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> I might pull the trigger on a pair of Bugle boys, never actually tried one yet!
> 
> @bcowen, have you had anymore time with the Foton, still worth a look in to?



Which Foton, the 6N3P or the 6N8S?  Haven't spent any more time with the 6N3P since I got the Lyr, but it was tied with the CBS/Hytron 5692 as my favorite tube in the Vali before I abandoned ship.   I did a brief listen to the 6N8S Foton in the Lyr and liked what I heard.  But I was concerned with the high leakage readings I was getting on those tubes in my tester so I didn't leave it in there (bought 4 tubes -- 3 had really high leakage readings, and the 4th still registered but was not as high).  Leakage is starting down the path to a short, and I'm not educated enough on how much leakage is OK and how much might be dangerous (for the amp), so I elected to be safe and just not continue to use it.  Have two more sets on the way from different sellers which should hopefully be here in the next week or so.  And hopefully get ones that test out correctly....crossing fingers.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Condocondor said:


> Anyone tried this in their Vali2?  Its a 5760 with a machined 6922 adapter with noise filtration of heater supply?
> 
> https://www.musicdirect.com/tubes/ifi-nos-5670-6922-vacuum-tubes-pr



I bought and tried them in the Valhalla 2. I was leery of ebay adapters and figured I could at least get a good adapter out of it. The tube/adapter do not come apart.  Imaging and tone is excellent but the bass is a bit light with the HD800.


----------



## chef8489

KoshNaranek said:


> I bought and tried them in the Valhalla 2. I was leery of ebay adapters and figured I could at least get a good adapter out of it. The tube/adapter do not come apart.  Imaging and tone is excellent but the bass is a bit light with the HD800.


I get the same with the same tube and the standard adapter. This tube is light on the bass even with my LCD2c. It makes them more neutral. 
I recommend this adapter https://www.ebay.com/itm/1piece-Gol...370227?hash=item2cba6e94b3:g:3pgAAOSwKfVXJciG with the ge jan 5670w and pick up a 6n3p while you are at if for less than what the one ifi is selling for. You will get a great adapter and one of the best tubes in my opinion(6n3p) and the ge jan 5670w plus you can purchase more tubes with the same pin to play with later.


----------



## Mr Trev

I'll jump in again to point out G1217 also has a 5670 type adapter now. Possibly faster shipping…


----------



## chef8489

I think I will be selling my vali 2 and my mimby soon with all my tubes and adapters that are not comparable with the Lyr 3.


----------



## volly

Yeah same, the MCTH is fulfilling my needs of a tube/hybrid at the moment, lucky they use the same family of tubes.


----------



## chef8489

I love the Vali 2 but think the Lyr 3 will be a good upgrade.


----------



## volly

For the money you can't fault the Vali 2 but yeah there are "better" amps further down the rabbit hole.


----------



## winders

chef8489 said:


> I think I will be selling my vali 2 and my mimby soon with all my tubes and adapters that are not comparable with the Lyr 3.



Keep the Mimby and order the Lyr 3 without the DAC card.


----------



## chef8489

winders said:


> Keep the Mimby and order the Lyr 3 without the DAC card.


No there are a  few reasons i dont want a mimby with the Lyr 3.


----------



## winders

chef8489 said:


> No there are a  few reasons i dont want a mimby with the Lyr 3.



Well, I can think of several reasons to use a Mimby and not the on-board multibit DAC option. First, Mimby sounds better. Second, the Mimby can be left on all the time. Third, you'll have the option to feed Mimby a SPDIF signal which it likes much better than USB. Fourth, you might save some money.


----------



## chef8489

Again i am not using the mimby with the lyr 3 leave it at that. I have my reasons.


----------



## winders

chef8489 said:


> Again i am not using the mimby with the lyr 3 leave it at that. I have my reasons.



I was just offering up reasons you might want to use Mimby...that's all. If those reasons don't make a difference to you for whatever reason, ignore them......you don't need to get indignant.


----------



## chef8489

winders said:


> I was just offering up reasons you might want to use Mimby...that's all. If those reasons don't make a difference to you for whatever reason, ignore them......you don't need to get indignant.


It has all been covered in another thread and got pretty nasty in there. I dont want to rehash it.


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> It has all been covered in another thread and got pretty nasty in there. I dont want to rehash it.



On a different subject, have you had any quality time with the Foton 6N3P yet?  If so, what are your thoughts on it versus the Reflektor?  Better, worse, or just different?


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> On a different subject, have you had any quality time with the Foton 6N3P yet?  If so, what are your thoughts on it versus the Reflektor?  Better, worse, or just different?


Not enough. Hope to this weekend.


----------



## dwinnert (Apr 28, 2018)

I tested a Vali 2 when I went to the Schiit store a week ago,  but ended up buying a Magni 3. I was thinking of getting a Vali 2 for another setup, but was curios if you can get the tube sound from it. When I was testing it compared to the Magni 3, there was little to no discernible difference, meaning any difference was not so pronounced that it screamed tube amp. Does tube rolling with this make a big difference? Can it be made to add some tube color?


----------



## chef8489

dwinnert said:


> I tested a Vali 2 when I went to the Schiit store a week ago,  butI ended up buying a Magni 3. I was thinking of getting a Vali 2 for another setup, but was curios if you can get the tube sound from it. When I was testing it compared to the Magni 3, there was little to no discernible difference, meaning any difference was not so pronounced that it screamed tube amp. Does tube rolling with this make a big difference? Can it be made to add some tube color?


Yes tube rolling makes a big difference in the sound, however, you will never get that complete otl tube sound.  The stock tubes are pretty neutral and sound pretty flat and solid state like. This amp has so much potiential with different tubes.


----------



## dwinnert

chef8489 said:


> Yes tube rolling makes a big difference in the sound, however, you will never get that complete otl tube sound.  The stock tubes are pretty neutral and sound pretty flat and solid state like. This amp has so much potiential with different tubes.



Thanks! I think I will grab one next week. I live 15 minutes from Schiit, so it will give me another chance to play with thier Schiit at the showroom.


----------



## ohcrapgorillas

With a 6922 to 6SN7 converter, could I use this adapter and these tubes?


----------



## bcowen

ohcrapgorillas said:


> With a 6922 to 6SN7 converter, could I use this adapter and these tubes?



You could, but if you want to use those tubes why not get this one instead and eliminate an adapter?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6...831342?hash=item2c99703f6e:g:eRoAAOSweW5VH-uT


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> You could, but if you want to use those tubes why not get this one instead and eliminate an adapter?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6...831342?hash=item2c99703f6e:g:eRoAAOSweW5VH-uT


Pictures are all wrong in that add.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> You could, but if you want to use those tubes why not get this one instead and eliminate an adapter?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6...831342?hash=item2c99703f6e:g:eRoAAOSweW5VH-uT





chef8489 said:


> Pictures are all wrong in that add.



Those pics show an 8 pin setup as opposed to the description of 6dj8. I'm pretty sure that I have seen a 9 pin version of that adapter tho


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Those pics show an 8 pin setup as opposed to the description of 6dj8. I'm pretty sure that I have seen a 9 pin version of that adapter tho



You and Chef are both, of course, correct.  I didn't even look at the pictures -- was just going by the item description.  I'm guessing (but _just_ guessing) the same seller actually makes the version in the description, but it'd certainly have to be verified first.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Those pics show an 8 pin setup as opposed to the description of 6dj8. I'm pretty sure that I have seen a 9 pin version of that adapter tho



BTW, good to see you back.  Was wondering where you'd run off to.  

Jammin' to Manson's 'Third Day Of A Seven Day Binge' as I type this.  Somehow old Russian tubes (Fotons) and Manson seem to be made for each other...


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> BTW, good to see you back.  Was wondering where you'd run off to.
> 
> Jammin' to Manson's 'Third Day Of A Seven Day Binge' as I type this.  Somehow old Russian tubes (Fotons) and Manson seem to be made for each other...



I've still been lurking… feeling a tad dejected with everybody getting Lyr3s


----------



## chef8489

Mr Trev said:


> I've still been lurking… feeling a tad dejected with everybody getting Lyr3s


I dont have it yet. Just the Vali 2 with lots of tubes.


----------



## riffrafff

So, my Vali 2 (b-stock) arrived today.  The original tube is unmarked, save for some small lettering along the side:  "3H01239"

Any idea what this is?  Just another nondescript 6BZ7?


----------



## bcowen

riffrafff said:


> So, my Vali 2 (b-stock) arrived today.  The original tube is unmarked, save for some small lettering along the side:  "3H01239"
> 
> Any idea what this is?  Just another nondescript 6BZ7?



Mine didn't have any identifying info on it either.  Just assumed it was a 6BZ7.


----------



## rgmffn

riffrafff said:


> So, my Vali 2 (b-stock) arrived today.  The original tube is unmarked, save for some small lettering along the side:  "3H01239"
> 
> Any idea what this is?  Just another nondescript 6BZ7?


I would say yes, the chances are very very good that that's what it is, having seen numerous different brands of that tube come with a new Vali 2. And never heard of anything else.


----------



## timb5881

Got my B stock Vali 2  in today as well.   First thing I did was pull out one of my Ei 7DJ8 tubes and using that now.   It is the A frame, with a dimpled saucer (flying saucer), got a box full in the basement.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

timb5881 said:


> Got my B stock Vali 2  in today as well.   First thing I did was pull out one of my Ei 7DJ8 tubes and using that now.   It is the A frame, with a dimpled saucer (flying saucer), got a box full in the basement.



What are your impressions so far?


----------



## timb5881

So far it is very good.  Does not over accentuate any thing.  The detail seems to be on par with my modded Creek headphone amp.  I want to let the 7DJ8 to settle in a little more before I make a final say as to how it sounds as a whole.


----------



## timb5881

Well I am up over 36 hours with the Ei 7dj8 tube playing non stop.   The high frequencies are very extended, but not bright, same way with the bass, nice deep thwacks of bass drums, can clearly heard and not confused or mixed with the bass guitar.   I would not call this combo as being very tube sounding, more like solid state that is well voiced.


----------



## timb5881 (Jun 29, 2018)

Just curious, has any one found that some of the vintage 6922 and 6dj8 look the same as other brands?  I have several of the A frames that measure identically to each other, with Amperex, Tesla, Phillips, and even Telefunken and American Sylvania and a few others that I have rounded up over the years.   I have some Tesla's that are not A frame's. and they look like a few others I have seen on ebay.   I have found in my stash so far, 6 different designs.  2 A frame designs, one with a dimpled getter, and the other with a flat plate.  2 different types of halo getters and 2 Russian designs that are unique.


----------



## Jim Bobber

Hey guys, very new to the tube amp world. I’ve got a set of HD800s’s on the way, a Vali 2, and I’ll be using this with my fiio X7MK II,

Just looking for any advice beyond the stock tube that might suit the 800’s?

Cheers,


----------



## timb5881

GrouchoMarx1933 said:


> Well, darn it, despite the Amperex's great sound, I'm hearing some microphonics and noise from time to time. It's not constant or even frequent, but it's very noticeable when it does happen and is enough to take me right out of the music. Maybe the novib will help. If not, I'll check the Herleen PCC88 and see how that compares.


Go to a hardware store and buy a garden hose o ring.  It will fit over the tube and reduce microphonics.  There are 2 types of gaskets for garden hoses, one is flat, the other is an o ring.  Both work, I use them withall my 9 pin tubes.


----------



## Ameloblast

I've just got a 6SN7 to 6922 adaptor and used a current issue Tung-sol 6SN7-GTB and found it to be peakier than my Genalex Gold Lion 6922 albeit with more instrument separation, detail and soundstage. The gold lion has a lusher mids which I think I prefer with a more rounded off treble. Thoughts? Wondering if the Vali 2 6SN7 tube rollers here have any suggestions for reasonably priced 6SN7 tubes? Something warmer and lusher sounding will be great. Trying to tame by Hifiman HE4xx. Thanks!


----------



## Wes S (Aug 8, 2018)

Roy Ong said:


> I've just got a 6SN7 to 6922 adaptor and used a current issue Tung-sol 6SN7-GTB and found it to be peakier than my Genalex Gold Lion 6922 albeit with more instrument separation, detail and soundstage. The gold lion has a lusher mids which I think I prefer with a more rounded off treble. Thoughts? Wondering if the Vali 2 6SN7 tube rollers here have any suggestions for reasonably priced 6SN7 tubes? Something warmer and lusher sounding will be great. Trying to tame by Hifiman HE4xx. Thanks!


RCA 6SN7GT grey glass from the 40's, will get you warmth, or even a 50's RCA grey glass, but not quite as good as the 1940's.  You can jump over to the 6SN7 addicts thread on this forum, for a wealth of 6SN7 info.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6sn7-tube-addicts.479031/

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/


----------



## Ameloblast

Wes S said:


> RCA 6SN7GT grey glass from the 40's, will get you warmth, or even a 50's RCA grey glass, but not quite as good as the 1940's.  You can jump over to the 6SN7 addicts thread on this forum, for a wealth of 6SN7 info.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/
> 
> ...



Thanks! what a wealth of information!


----------



## Wes S

Roy Ong said:


> Thanks! what a wealth of information!


No prob.  I have read all three threads and I have learned a ton of info, on the 6SN7.


----------



## timb5881

Are there any good 6BZ7 tubes wort trying to track down?


----------



## riffrafff

timb5881 said:


> Are there any good 6BZ7 tubes wort trying to track down?



My (unmarked) stock 6BZ7 tube was unremarkable.  But there's plenty other compatible tubes out there that can be rolled into the Vali 2. I'm currently switching between a 1975 Reflektor 6N3P-E and a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT "Mouse Ears."  Both require (different) adapters, BTW.


----------



## timb5881

riffrafff said:


> My (unmarked) stock 6BZ7 tube was unremarkable.  But there's plenty other compatible tubes out there that can be rolled into the Vali 2. I'm currently switching between a 1975 Reflektor 6N3P-E and a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT "Mouse Ears."  Both require (different) adapters, BTW.


Just curious about the various 6BZ7 tubes.  I have a ton of 6SN7 tubes that I use with an adaptor.   The 6BZ7 tubes seem to be very inexpensive on ebay,


----------



## timb5881

I also have many 6DJ8, 6922, and 7DJ8 tubes, but getting more of those can be pricey from the most wantrd list.  I just ordered a 12AU7 to 6922 adapter to try all my various 12AU7 and military versions of tubes I have stashed away.


----------



## Mr Trev (Sep 1, 2018)

riffrafff said:


> My (unmarked) stock 6BZ7 tube was unremarkable.  But there's plenty other compatible tubes out there that can be rolled into the Vali 2. I'm currently switching between a 1975 Reflektor 6N3P-E and a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT "Mouse Ears."  Both require (different) adapters, BTW.



Nice. I have those same tubes. Been using the Mouse Ear to feed my HD58x for the past couple weeks.

I remember a while back somebody mentioning they were going to check out some different 6bz7s. Don't think they ever followed up.


----------



## bcowen

timb5881 said:


> I also have many 6DJ8, 6922, and 7DJ8 tubes, but getting more of those can be pricey from the most wantrd list.  I just ordered a 12AU7 to 6922 adapter to try all my various 12AU7 and military versions of tubes I have stashed away.



Can't help with the 6BZ7, sorry.  I listened to the stock tube briefly and found it rather uninspiring. Like you I have a stash of lots of other stuff to play with, so I never explored other brands/vintages of 6BZ7's. Could be a hidden gem out there...who knows.

Once you get your 12AU7 adapter, I found the RCA clear top/black plate to sound very nice. If you have a big stash of 12AU7's I'm sure you have some already.   Better yet is the Amperex 7316. The price on those has climbed into stupid territory, but worth seeking out if you don't already have one and can find a deal.


----------



## volly

@bcowen - Long-timeLurker activated!! 

What's this you say? 12AU7? I'm listening...I have a few 12AU7's, is it worth a roll-in Mister Bcowen?


----------



## riffrafff

I'm curious...how does this adapter allow the use of a 12V-heater tube in a 6V-heater amp?


----------



## bcowen

riffrafff said:


> I'm curious...how does this adapter allow the use of a 12V-heater tube in a 6V-heater amp?



The 12AU7 has a  center tapped filament and can be operated at either 6.3 or 12.6 volts depending on how the circuit is wired. So there's still only 6 volts....just using a tube that doesn't care which of the two voltages you feed it.


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> @bcowen - Long-timeLurker activated!!
> 
> What's this you say? 12AU7? I'm listening...I have a few 12AU7's, is it worth a roll-in Mister Bcowen?



@volly   Long time, my friend!!  How are things?

I rolled a half-dozen 12AU7's through the Vali before my attention was diverted by the Lyr 3.  I didn't find any holy grails in the process, mostly just different flavors. One thing that stood out with all the 12AU7's (versus the 6922 family) was a bigger and more delineated soundstage. So if that's high on the priority list, then worth playing with. Adapters are cheap if you already have the stash of tubes.


----------



## riffrafff

bcowen said:


> The 12AU7 has a  center tapped filament and can be operated at either 6.3 or 12.6 volts depending on how the circuit is wired. So there's still only 6 volts....just using a tube that doesn't care which of the two voltages you feed it.



Okay, cool.  I figured that was what was happening.


----------



## volly

@bcowen - Good mate, everything going well this end of the woods. 

I might just have to try out the 12Au7 adapter, Vali 2 still pulling it's weight. Still one heck of an amp from Schiit tbh! 

For those still rolling 6SN7 with the Vali 2:
 
Tung Sol 6SN7 - Very good tube.

Tube-Fi desk setup:
 

Good to hear from you @bcowen - I trust the Lyr 3 is still going strong?!


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> @bcowen - Good mate, everything going well this end of the woods.
> 
> I might just have to try out the 12Au7 adapter, Vali 2 still pulling it's weight. Still one heck of an amp from Schiit tbh!
> 
> ...



The Lyr 3 is doing fabulous.  It's so much fun to play with as different tubes can make substantial changes in the sound. Currently in nirvana with the Frankentube 7N7:





Funny, huh?  A GE tube in a (nauseatingly) vocal GE haters amp?!?    No worries...I haven't lost it (yet). The only thing 'GE' about it is the label -- it was made by Sylvania. Been having a blast with these 7N7's.  Cheap as dirt, and this particular version (tall bottle, flat glass top) is my current king in the Lyr displacing some seriously more expensive and widely worshiped 6SN7's.

And how's that Darkvoice?  That is such a bad-a$$ looking amp with that monster transformer sitting high and mighty. Hope it sounds as good as it looks?


----------



## volly

@bcowen - Love the look of the GE tube, similar clicks over in Darkvoice amp world. Not so much love with Ruski tubes but everyone would sell their left testicle for a vintage Tung Sol or a 6080 made in the United States of America! 

Darkvoice is going strong (touch wood!) it's like living next to a transformer station some days, you get that classic click/hummm when you turn her on every morning. But the sound is just so lovely, warm-yet-clear sounding amp with great dynamic slam, compared to the Vali 2, you just hear/feel the differences. More tubes to play with but that is a slippery slope straight to the depths eye-gouging tube mongers hell! 5990, 6080, 6AS7g, 6Sn7 etc etc.

Did you ever get around to trying the "Foton" made types in the Vali 2, maybe some of the new owners might be interested, price wise and sound quality?!?


----------



## bcowen

volly said:


> @bcowen - Love the look of the GE tube, similar clicks over in Darkvoice amp world. Not so much love with Ruski tubes but everyone would sell their left testicle for a vintage Tung Sol or a 6080 made in the United States of America!
> 
> Darkvoice is going strong (touch wood!) it's like living next to a transformer station some days, you get that classic click/hummm when you turn her on every morning. But the sound is just so lovely, warm-yet-clear sounding amp with great dynamic slam, compared to the Vali 2, you just hear/feel the differences. More tubes to play with but that is a slippery slope straight to the depths eye-gouging tube mongers hell! 5990, 6080, 6AS7g, 6Sn7 etc etc.
> 
> Did you ever get around to trying the "Foton" made types in the Vali 2, maybe some of the new owners might be interested, price wise and sound quality?!?



Funny you mention the Tung-Sol. I almost scored a beautiful round plate on Ebay yesterday...got snookered in the last millisecond by a whole $1. Ended up going for $105. I should've just thrown in $150 and then I'd have had it for $106. 

Something about big transformers and dynamics. More bigger = more better.

I played with the Foton 6N3P's (2C51 sub) in the Vali, but never tried the 6N8S's (6SN7). The 6N3P's sounded very nice, but as I understand it from the guys over in the Lyr tube rolling forum the 3-mica versions of the Foton are the truly magical ones in that tube type. I only have the two-mica versions, and the 3-mica's are becoming unobtanium. Still, the 2-mica Fotons are a great sounding tube and cheap as proverbial dirt. Gotta have an adapter though...


----------



## Klots

Just ordered 2x Tesla E88C tubes from ebay. Price was too good, but I hope that they are not fake. https://www.ebay.com/itm/E88CC-Tesl...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 . Maybe someone can compare them with EH 6CG7 ?


----------



## fnsnyc

Did anyone else have a microphonics issue with the Vali?
Every time something touches the Vali, or the headphone cord pulls it a little, I hear a ringing noise.


----------



## bcowen

fnsnyc said:


> Did anyone else have a microphonics issue with the Vali?
> Every time something touches the Vali, or the headphone cord pulls it a little, I hear a ringing noise.



The microphonics are not attributable to the Vali -- they're attributable to the tube.  Try a different one.


----------



## fnsnyc

bcowen said:


> The microphonics are not attributable to the Vali -- they're attributable to the tube.  Try a different one.


which one would you recommend?


----------



## Lekoguy

Even with a pair of identical tubes, one can exhibit microphonics and the other is totally stable.  When buying tubes it is always best to purchase those which have been tested and the results listed.  Tube dampers (eBay) can be very helpful for controlling microphonics.  They are silicone 'donuts' which fit on the envelope.

Here's a great site to learn all about tube stuff:  www.audiotubes.com


----------



## riffrafff

Get a biggun:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/official-schiit-vali-2-thread.790828/page-125#post-13291395


----------



## bcowen

riffrafff said:


> Get a biggun:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/official-schiit-vali-2-thread.790828/page-125#post-13291395



LOL!  Go big or go home.  


fnsnyc said:


> which one would you recommend?



Wow.  That's a difficult question.  Read through this thread for lots of ideas. If you don't mind getting an adapter, a Foton 6N3P is a great choice that's pretty cheap. If you don't want to mess with adapters, my favorite un-adapted tube in the Vali was a 60's vintage Telefunken 6DJ8. Gotta be careful with those too though as that family has a high tendency for microphonics. If you can find a good one though it will sing.


----------



## riffrafff

bcowen said:


> LOL! Go big or go home.



Yeah, I'm taking baby steps, workin' my way up:


  

I need to look into those dual-tube adapters (that use two single-triode tubes) just for fun.


----------



## timb5881

Back into Tube Rolling hog heaven!  Got my 12au7 to 6922 adapter in today.  Right now jamming with a Ei 12AU7 silver plate tube, very nice indeed.


----------



## volly

@timb5881 - Pic's please!


----------



## Keno18

timb5881 said:


> Back into Tube Rolling hog heaven!  Got my 12au7 to 6922 adapter in today.  Right now jamming with a Ei 12AU7 silver plate tube, very nice indeed.



Just listening to a 12ax7 Electro-Harmionix, darker than the 12au7, deeper bass but still well controlled. Out of the 13 tubes I've rolled the EH 12ax7 and 12au7 are my favorites.


----------



## timb5881

Keno18 said:


> Just listening to a 12ax7 Electro-Harmionix, darker than the 12au7, deeper bass but still well controlled. Out of the 13 tubes I've rolled the EH 12ax7 and 12au7 are my favorites.


What brand of 12AU7?  So far I have tried in the 12au7 family Tung-Sol, RCA Black rib (5693), Ei silver plates and Mullard.  I like the RCA and the Tung-Sol the best.


----------



## Lekoguy

One of my favorite tubes is a clear top, side getter, RCA/CONN 12AU7 from the early 1960s.  It is warmly vivid in the mids and top and the bass is solid and expansive.  The Chicago Symphony really sounds like the CSO.

Luckily, these tubes are readily available and don't cost an arm, leg, first born, or left nut.


----------



## Keno18 (Sep 14, 2018)

timb5881 said:


> What brand of 12AU7?  So far I have tried in the 12au7 family Tung-Sol, RCA Black rib (5693), Ei silver plates and Mullard.  I like the RCA and the Tung-Sol the best.


Electro-Harmonix. I've tried RCA clear tops, bright but not enough bass; Raytheon (Japan) Yellow label, dull sounding; Sylvania 5814a Triple Mica, all -round good just not quite as good as the EHs. I've been meaning to try the Tung-Sols as I like their 6sn7. After my last post I gave another listen to the 12au7EH vs. 12ax7, the 12au7 had better sound stage and imaging with slightly less bass impact but I prefer the EH.

@Lekoguy I just read your post about the clear tops, They were my favorite with the Bravo V2, I stockpiled 13 of them just to be sure I had enough . Every so often I go back to them with the Vali.


----------



## riffrafff

Keno18 said:


> Electro-Harmonix.



New ones?  Or NOS?


----------



## Keno18

riffrafff said:


> New ones?  Or NOS?



New. You can get it balanced from Tube Depot for $13.95.


----------



## bcowen

timb5881 said:


> What brand of 12AU7?  So far I have tried in the 12au7 family Tung-Sol, RCA Black rib (5693), Ei silver plates and Mullard.  I like the RCA and the Tung-Sol the best.



If you like the RCA (assuming you mean 5963), try an Amperex 7316. Not cheap, but very nice in the Vali2.


----------



## timb5881

Lekoguy said:


> Even with a pair of identical tubes, one can exhibit microphonics and the other is totally stable.  When buying tubes it is always best to purchase those which have been tested and the results listed.  Tube dampers (eBay) can be very helpful for controlling microphonics.  They are silicone 'donuts' which fit on the envelope.
> 
> Here's a great site to learn all about tube stuff:  www.audiotubes.com


  Go to Home Depot or any hardware store and buy some garden hose washers. Usually you can buy a pack of 10 washers for about $2 or so, mixed silicone doughnut shaped ones and butyl rubber flat ones.   You can try one or the other, 2 washers at a time, mixed or matched.  EAch type of washer affects microphonics differently.


----------



## timb5881

Trying to id some Mullard 12Au7 tubes I have.  One is labeled Eico, the other is labeled International  Mullard.  Both have top getters, short gray plates.  The plates have 1 hole left and right and 2 ladder steps in the center.  Both are marked made in Gt Britain.  Any idea of when these were made?   Other wise they are identical except the labels.


----------



## Keno18

timb5881 said:


> Trying to id some Mullard 12Au7 tubes I have.  One is labeled Eico, the other is labeled International  Mullard.  Both have top getters, short gray plates.  The plates have 1 hole left and right and 2 ladder steps in the center.  Both are marked made in Gt Britain.  Any idea of when these were made?   Other wise they are identical except the labels.



Eico was an old electronics kit company based in Queens, NY until somewhere around the 60s. Don't know about the other.


----------



## Lekoguy

_*Eargasm !!!*
_
I decided to take a slightly different direction and purchased a NOS Amperex E80CC/6085.  It's from 1962, built in Holland, and is perfectly balanced.

Now that it's burned in and I have done lots of listening all I can say is

*AWESOME !!!
*
It is totally different than the 6BZ7 variants.  The best description is super spacious.  Everything just opens up and vocals seem to float.  Through my Sennheiser HD 6XX cans everything becomes so alive.  The clarity of the bass is amazing - even in the Saint-Seans Organ Symphony.

I really like this tube.


----------



## Keno18 (Sep 24, 2018)

I have to change my opinion of the RCA 12au7 clear top. I thought it was too bright and didn't have enough bass compared to the 12au7EH or the Reissue Tung-Sol 6sn7. But I kept reading posts that described the tube in  glowing terms. So I did what I should have done a long time ago, I tried another clear top. Evidently the tube I was listening to is near the end of it's life. This other tube has all the characteristics I read about. It's now one of, if not, my favorite tube. I learned two things today: 1. Be wary of bargains on ebay and 2. How to troubleshoot a problem.


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> I have to change my opinion of the RCA 12au7 clear top. I thought it was too bright and didn't have enough bass compared to the 12au7EH or the Reissue Tung-Sol 6sn7. But I kept reading posts that described the tube in  glowing terms. So I did what I should have done a long time ago, I tried another clear top. Evidently the tube I was listening to is near the end of it's life. This other tube has all the characteristics I read about. It's now one of, if not, my favorite tube. I learned two things today: 1. Be wary of bargains on ebay and 2. How to troubleshoot a problem.



There are black plate and gray plate versions of the clear top as well. Probably tied to different years of manufacture, but don't know that for sure or which years are which. The black plate version sounds better to my ears, FWIW.


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> There are black plate and gray plate versions of the clear top as well. Probably tied to different years of manufacture, but don't know that for sure or which years are which. The black plate version sounds better to my ears, FWIW.



Didn't know that. I'll have to check my inventory. Thanks for the heads-up. Oh good, something else I can obsess about .


----------



## Lekoguy

Hey Kino,

Obsessions are so much fun!

In addition to the the blackplate, having a side getter makes for an even better cleartop.  Don't be afraid of the RCA tubes which are labeled for organ and tape recorder manufacturers such as CONN, Voice of Music, Amperex, etc.  All of these were specially tested to meet the demands of the manufacturers.  As far as I know, they all have orange labels.


----------



## Keno18

Lekoguy said:


> Hey Kino,
> 
> Obsessions are so much fun!
> 
> In addition to the the blackplate, having a side getter makes for an even better cleartop.  Don't be afraid of the RCA tubes which are labeled for organ and tape recorder manufacturers such as CONN, Voice of Music, Amperex, etc.  All of these were specially tested to meet the demands of the manufacturers.  As far as I know, they all have orange labels.



I just checked all 13 including the "bad" one, they're all gray with side getters. At least they are consistent. I have a 2 CONNs and a Western Union among them. OOPs, I think I just obsessed! My wife says just enjoy them, she never did understand...


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> I just checked all 13 including the "bad" one, they're all gray with side getters. At least they are consistent. I have a 2 CONNs and a Western Union among them. OOPs, I think I just obsessed! My wife says just enjoy them, she never did understand...



A Western Union? That must have been made after Western Electric and National Union merged.  

The black plates are not as plentiful, but keep an eye out. And @Lekoguy's tip is spot on -- don't shy away from a cleartop RCA with another logo on it. You stand a good chance of getting an even higher spec (or more thoroughly tested) tube. _DO_ shy away from the RCA chrome domes as they don't sound nearly as good as the clear tops (to my ears anyway).


----------



## Keno18

[QUOTE="And @Lekoguy's tip is spot on -- don't shy away from a cleartop RCA with another logo on it. You stand a good chance of getting an even higher spec (or more thoroughly tested) tube. _DO_ shy away from the RCA chrome domes as they don't sound nearly as good as the clear tops (to my ears anyway).[/QUOTE]

Another good tip I wasn't aware of. Thanks!


----------



## timb5881

Ok, so who out there has been crazy enough to try 12AX7 or 12AT7 tubes, via the 12AU7 to 6922 adapter on their Vali 2?   I tried some earlier today, and guess what?  No blue smoke or stop working etc.  Other than volume differences, they all sounded good.   All meet the 600 ma or less listed on their FAQ page.  The only one I have tried that is at 600 Ma is the 6SN7 series.  Case in point, all the tubes listed need a tube adapter to work, and in case of the 12 series, be sure the adapter parallels the heater so they run at 6.3 volt's.

http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/dcigna/tubes/sheets/amperex/12ax7p1.txt
http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/dcigna/tubes/sheets/amperex/12au7p1.txt
http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/dcigna/tubes/sheets/amperex/6922-1h.gif
http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/dcigna/tubes/sheets/amperex/12at7p1.txt

From Schiits FAQ's on the Vali 2
http://www.schiit.com/products/vali-1

*And when the tube goes bad?*
You replace it. We sell single 6BZ7 tubes, matched to 2%, for $10. But there are a lot of other options out there, including 6DJ8, 6922, ECC88, 2492, and even more. Pretty much any tube with a 6DJ8 pinout, 6V heater, and 600mA or less of heater current will work fine in Vali 2. Beyond that, we don't speculate which tubes are "best."


----------



## bcowen

timb5881 said:


> Ok, so who out there has been crazy enough to try 12AX7 or 12AT7 tubes, via the 12AU7 to 6922 adapter on their Vali 2?   I tried some earlier today, and guess what?  No blue smoke or stop working etc.  Other than volume differences, they all sounded good.   All meet the 600 ma or less listed on their FAQ page.  The only one I have tried that is at 600 Ma is the 6SN7 series.  Case in point, all the tubes listed need a tube adapter to work, and in case of the 12 series, be sure the adapter parallels the heater so they run at 6.3 volt's.
> 
> http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/dcigna/tubes/sheets/amperex/12ax7p1.txt
> http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/dcigna/tubes/sheets/amperex/12au7p1.txt
> ...



Gain wise, 12AU7 = lowest, 12AT7 is medium, and 12AX7 is highest. The reason these work with only 6.3 volts is they have a center tapped filament and were designed to run on either 6.3 or 12.6 volts.  Can't do that with all 12 volt tubes, regardless of how the adapter is wired. For example a 12SN7 does not have a center tapped filament and was not designed to operate with 6.3 volts so the chances of it working in the Vali are pretty slim. I won't say it _can't _work because I've never tried it...and probably never will.    Too bad, as 12SN7's are way, way cheaper than their 6SN7 brethren.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Gain wise, 12AU7 = lowest, 12AT7 is medium, and 12AX7 is highest. The reason these work with only 6.3 volts is they have a center tapped filament and were designed to run on either 6.3 or 12.6 volts.  Can't do that with all 12 volt tubes, regardless of how the adapter is wired. For example a 12SN7 does not have a center tapped filament and was not designed to operate with 6.3 volts so the chances of it working in the Vali are pretty slim. I won't say it _can't _work because I've never tried it...and probably never will.    Too bad, as 12SN7's are way, way cheaper than their 6SN7 brethren.



Haven't been brave enough to try the other 12a?7 tubes… yet. I remember reading something about the 12at7 not being interchangeable with the others on Brent Jesse though. I also think the 12ax7 runs at an even higher plate voltage than the 12au7 so it may not be optimal. Then again 6sn7s are supposed to get a way higher plate voltage than the Vali2 can dream of providing, but they still work fine…
I hear you about the 12sn7. I know a guy with a Project Solstice. He loves the cheaper 12v based tubes (who wouldn't)

What's the deal with those 7n7s you guys keep going on about over on the Lyr3 thread? If I stack enough adapters you figure they'll work in the V2


----------



## timb5881

Yea the 7N7 is loctal base, and are a lot cheaper than a 6sn7 with the same construction.


----------



## Keno18 (Sep 26, 2018)

timb5881 said:


> Ok, so who out there has been crazy enough to try 12AX7 or 12AT7 tubes, via the 12AU7 to 6922 adapter on their Vali 2?



I've tried the JJ 12AT7, nothing special about the sound. Also an Electro-Harmonix 12AX7 which gives a slightly darker more bass centered sound.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Haven't been brave enough to try the other 12a?7 tubes… yet. I remember reading something about the 12at7 not being interchangeable with the others on Brent Jesse though. I also think the 12ax7 runs at an even higher plate voltage than the 12au7 so it may not be optimal. Then again 6sn7s are supposed to get a way higher plate voltage than the Vali2 can dream of providing, but they still work fine…
> I hear you about the 12sn7. I know a guy with a Project Solstice. He loves the cheaper 12v based tubes (who wouldn't)
> 
> What's the deal with those 7n7s you guys keep going on about over on the Lyr3 thread? If I stack enough adapters you figure they'll work in the V2



As @timb5881 stated, the 7N7 is a 6SN7 with a loctal base. Electrically identical.  There's a particular version of this that sounds incredible and although getting hard to find, they're still cheap if you can dig one up. I picked up my first one for $5. The long, gory saga starts here:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-3-tube-rolling-thread.876016/page-84#post-14447101

It will work in the Vali, but I've not yet looked for a 6922 -> 7N7 adapter. Possible they're available on Ebay, otherwise you'd have to get an adapter for the adapter. 

Good to see 'ya Mr. Trev!  Been a while.


----------



## Lekoguy

I have a couple of Foton 6SN7 - USSR 1960.  They have a warm, expansive sound with crystaline mids. Excellent tubes.

Having an octal base requires an adapter to 9-pin.  6SN7/6N8P > ECC88/6922.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/201506917187

Because of the size of the adapter, a base saver/extender is also needed for use in the Vali 2.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.ca/ulk/itm/312206555329


----------



## bcowen

Lekoguy said:


> I have a couple of Foton 6SN7 - USSR 1960.  They have a warm, expansive sound with crystaline mids. Excellent tubes.
> 
> Having an octal base requires an adapter to 9-pin.  6SN7/6N8P > ECC88/6922.
> 
> ...



The '60 - '65 Fotons *are* good (and especially for the money), but the '55 and earlier with ribbed plates are even better.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-6N8...173507?hash=item238a3dfc83:g:xmAAAOSwjpRavJ8e


----------



## Lekoguy

Thanks for that info!


----------



## riffrafff

Lekoguy said:


> I have a couple of Foton 6SN7 - USSR 1960.  They have a warm, expansive sound with crystaline mids. Excellent tubes.
> 
> Having an octal base requires an adapter to 9-pin.  6SN7/6N8P > ECC88/6922.
> 
> ...



Yep.  I needs more adapters, lol.


----------



## bcowen

riffrafff said:


> Yep.  I needs more adapters, lol.



Cool looking Mouse Ear!  How's it sound in the Vali?


----------



## riffrafff

bcowen said:


> Cool looking Mouse Ear!  How's it sound in the Vali?



Quite good, actually.  But (right now, anyways) I'm leaning more towards my 1975 NOS Reflektor 6N3P-E...bass seems better.  Still, I currently switch out mostly between the Reflektor and the mouse-ears.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> As @timb5881 stated, the 7N7 is a 6SN7 with a loctal base. Electrically identical.  There's a particular version of this that sounds incredible and although getting hard to find, they're still cheap if you can dig one up. I picked up my first one for $5. The long, gory saga starts here:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-3-tube-rolling-thread.876016/page-84#post-14447101
> 
> ...



Popped in the Lyr 3 thread somewhere in the middle of the "Frankentube" discussion so I wasn't sure what the deal was (lurking round those Lyr threads is a good way to steal tube suggestions, far more traffic than this thread). I did a quick search on ebay for adapters. Mostly found 6sn7>7n7, but did find a 6cg7>7n7. 6cg7 has the same pinout as the 6dj8 so it'd be workable, but also runs into the issue mentioned below



Lekoguy said:


> I have a couple of Foton 6SN7 - USSR 1960.  They have a warm, expansive sound with crystaline mids. Excellent tubes.
> 
> Having an octal base requires an adapter to 9-pin.  6SN7/6N8P > ECC88/6922.
> 
> ...



I used the need for this extra adapter to my advantage and got a 12au7 adapter to double as an extender and bought a 12au7>6sn7 for the big boys (yes, that's right. I'm going 6 to 12 and back to 6 again).
One of these days, I'm going to get a piece of metal and make a new cover for the amp. Make the opening for the tube big enough for a 6sn7 adapter to fit directly. I find my 6sn7s can pick up some noise at times and I think having to stack adapters my be part of the problem (plus it just looks funny)



riffrafff said:


> Yep.  I needs more adapters, lol.



My complaints aside… can't have too many adapters


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> My complaints aside… can't have too many adapters



That would be like having too much money, or too many tubes.  Neither are possible.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> That would be like having too much money, or too many tubes.  Neither are possible.



Too many tubes would be a judgment call. You've posted pics of your stash, that's quite the burden. In fact, so much so that I'm worried about you. You should let me shoulder some of your burden


----------



## jackasstimO

Hello dear Headphone experts,

2 years ago i bought myself a pair of used AKG Q701 and Soundblaster Z soundcard, over the last months i found out that the soundcard was limiting my headphones and so i started searching for a good DAC/AMP combo with a good bang for the buck.
Right now i narrowed it down to a Modi paired with a Vali 2. My question now is:

I have been reading a lot about how my headphones sound with the Vali 1 and the Vali 2. It seems like the Vali 1 would be the better match, as it warms up the headhphones quiet a bit more than the Vali 2 does. 
So i thought about tube rolling the Vali 2.
I also put a bit of time into searching through some tubes and ended up with this one:

PCC88 / 7DJ8 NOS

Does anyone know if this fits my expectations? I am mainly listening to Electronic Musik (Techno, Drum´n´Bass, etc) but also enjoy myself some Indie or Alternative.
I want my AKGs to sound alive and enhance their bass a bit, as they seem a bit to neutral for me, when driven with my old soundcard.

Would gladly appreciate any tips or answers and hope i can finally by my first real set up. 

Thanks already and hope my english is sufficient as I´m from Germany!

I already posted this in the vali 2 thread, but stumbled across this one just yet. 

With kind regards,

Timo


----------



## timb5881

jackasstimO said:


> Hello dear Headphone experts,
> 
> 2 years ago i bought myself a pair of used AKG Q701 and Soundblaster Z soundcard, over the last months i found out that the soundcard was limiting my headphones and so i started searching for a good DAC/AMP combo with a good bang for the buck.
> Right now i narrowed it down to a Modi paired with a Vali 2. My question now is:
> ...


 The 7DJ8 is a good tube.   Most are Telefunken directly, or Ei versions.  Ei purchased the dies from Telefunken, and so they are more or less the same.


----------



## ScubaMan2017 (Oct 23, 2018)

Christ on a cracker! A Vali tube rolling thread (so there’s at least 2 threads... one for the base unit [and general Vali inquiries]... and one for “valves”). Nice!
Alright, I’m enjoying my first tube amp (the Vali 2). I’ve been using the stock tube for ~10h. While it has a faint black serial number printed on the side, it has no other markings. I contacted Schiit’s (excellent) customer service... they must have crates of these NOS.... all they knew was that they were Russian. Question: has anybody figured out the valve’s providence? Image attached (btw, if one knows how to insert images into posts, let me know)... thanks, eh.

(I’ll respect  the thread and re-read the older posts to educate myself).


----------



## bcowen

No idea where that tube was born...sorry.  

The stock tube that came with my Vali2 was, um, shall we say uninspiring?  No glaring faults, just didn't give any hint of how good the Vali _could_ sound.  My favorite tube without adding an adapter was a 50's Telefunken 6DJ8.  Not too hard to find and not absurdly priced, but 6DJ8's in general have a reputation for being noisy and/or microphonic. If you can find a good one though they sound great, and better (to my ears) than most of their 6922 brethren.  If you don't have an issue with adapters, then there's an entire new world of possibilities out there for rolling.

To insert an image, click the 'Upload a File' button at the bottom of the text field.


----------



## Keno18

I agree with bcowen. I tried a gold issue Electro-Harmonix and a Genalex Gold Lion 6922 and didn't care for the sound. Just a couple of posts above these there's a recommendation for the 7DJ8. I found what I was looking for with tube adapters though.


----------



## timb5881

Keno18 said:


> I agree with bcowen. I tried a gold issue Electro-Harmonix and a Genalex Gold Lion 6922 and didn't care for the sound. Just a couple of posts above these there's a recommendation for the 7DJ8. I found what I was looking for with tube adapters though.


Yea there are some decent 7dj8 tubes out there.  I like them from Ei, which is a telafunken design mage on the old Telefunken dies.


----------



## Mr Trev

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Christ on a cracker! A Vali tube rolling thread (so there’s at least 2 threads... one for the base unit [and general Vali inquiries]... and one for “valves”). Nice!
> Alright, I’m enjoying my first tube amp (the Vali 2). I’ve been using the stock tube for ~10h. While it has a faint black serial number printed on the side, it has no other markings. I contacted Schiit’s (excellent) customer service... they must have crates of these NOS.... all they knew was that they were Russian. Question: has anybody figured out the valve’s providence? Image attached (btw, if one knows how to insert images into posts, let me know)... thanks, eh.
> 
> (I’ll respect  the thread and re-read the older posts to educate myself).



I think it's pretty much a crap shoot as to what stock tube you get. At the moment there's an ad on Canuck Audio Mart for a Vali 2 which lists the stock tube as a Sylvania NOS 6BQ7 (pics clearly show the markings). At one time the only markings on the tube were "Made in Canada". The tube in mine - like yours - has very little markings at all. Personally, I've never heard mention they were Russian made… until now


----------



## CrispApple

riffrafff said:


> Yeah, I'm taking baby steps, workin' my way up:
> 
> 
> 
> I need to look into those dual-tube adapters (that use two single-triode tubes) just for fun.



This sounds noticeably different from the smaller tubes?
Well I guess that's not very specific since those have different sounds from each other but I read that bigger tubes sound wider.

Love how this looks


----------



## timb5881

CrispApple said:


> This sounds noticeably different from the smaller tubes?
> Well I guess that's not very specific since those have different sounds from each other but I read that bigger tubes sound wider.
> 
> Love how this looks


I am running a Sylvania green label bottom getter flat plate.  I must say it does sound nice.  I also picked 2 Pearl Tube Cooler's, one 6922 sized, and the other is for 6SN7 tubes.  I am hopeing that it does extend the life of the tubes I have.t


----------



## Keno18 (Oct 28, 2018)

timb5881 said:


> I am running a Sylvania green label bottom getter flat plate.  I must say it does sound nice.  I also picked 2 Pearl Tube Cooler's, one 6922 sized, and the other is for 6SN7 tubes.  I am hopeing that it does extend the life of the tubes I have.t


I'm running a new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB. Also sounds good. I read on the Reference 6SN7 thread that GTBs can outlast you.


----------



## bcowen

timb5881 said:


> I am running a Sylvania green label bottom getter flat plate.  I must say it does sound nice.  I also picked 2 Pearl Tube Cooler's, one 6922 sized, and the other is for 6SN7 tubes.  I am hopeing that it does extend the life of the tubes I have.t



Not to ruin your day or anything, but in an open-air design like the Vali2 the tube cooler isn't going to do much of anything. There could (_maybe_) be some value where the tube is in a closed case, but for the most part tube coolers in general are a solution looking for a problem.


----------



## Keno18

Another clear top burnout.  That last one lasted about a month. Two down 11 to go. Thank goodness they're from different vendors.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> Another clear top burnout.  That last one lasted about a month. Two down 11 to go. Thank goodness they're from different vendors.



Bummer. Assuming those are 12au7 (there are also 6cg7 cleartops), I'd make sure to check your adapter too. Make sure the wiring is all sound/correct.
I still have to get myself a cleartop - I might be the only tube amp owner without one


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> Bummer. Assuming those are 12au7 (there are also 6cg7 cleartops), I'd make sure to check your adapter too. Make sure the wiring is all sound/correct.
> I still have to get myself a cleartop - I might be the only tube amp owner without one


It's definitely a 12AU7A. When I say burn out I mean they audio quality changes where the bass decreases to the point it sounds like a different tube, maybe I should say the tube deteriorates. That's more accurate. When I pop in another the bass returns.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> It's definitely a 12AU7A. When I say burn out I mean they audio quality changes where the bass decreases to the point it sounds like a different tube, maybe I should say the tube deteriorates. That's more accurate. When I pop in another the bass returns.



Gotcha. I was thinking blinding flash of light, glass shards everywhere
It's not just something that could be attributed to the tubes burning in? Granted none of my tubes ever changed to the point where I'd say they sound like a different tube…


----------



## Keno18 (Oct 29, 2018)

Mr Trev said:


> Gotcha. I was thinking blinding flash of light, glass shards everywhere
> It's not just something that could be attributed to the tubes burning in? Granted none of my tubes ever changed to the point where I'd say they sound like a different tube…


Only one tube is NOS, the other 10 are just vintage used with a "strong" rating. The ones with the short lifespan weren't really rated, just guaranteed to work. Which they did just not for long. It'll be interesting to see how the rest hold up.

Edit: Pilot error. I had my levels mismatched. Put the old tube back in and made sure the level was the same as the when I listened to the replacement and they both sounded the same.  Time to start listening to the music not the equipment.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> Only one tube is NOS, the other 10 are just vintage used with a "strong" rating. The ones with the short lifespan weren't really rated, just guaranteed to work. Which they did just not for long. It'll be interesting to see how the rest hold up.
> 
> Edit: Pilot error. I had my levels mismatched. Put the old tube back in and made sure the level was the same as the when I listened to the replacement and they both sounded the same.  Time to start listening to the music not the equipment.



Glad to hear there's a simple explanation.

For my ears the 12au7s are my favourite tubes in the Vali2 so far. I just love how much "bigger" they sound compared to the 6dj8 types. Perhaps the 6sn7s are technically better, but they both sound close enough to me and I only need to use one adapter with the 12au7.
Now I just need to get one of those cleartops (I'll just hang my head in shame and see myself out)


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> Glad to hear there's a simple explanation.
> 
> For my ears the 12au7s are my favourite tubes in the Vali2 so far. I just love how much "bigger" they sound compared to the 6dj8 types. Perhaps the 6sn7s are technically better, but they both sound close enough to me and I only need to use one adapter with the 12au7.
> Now I just need to get one of those cleartops (I'll just hang my head in shame and see myself out)


You gave me the idea to try it again when you said you hadn't run into a situation where a tube sounded like a different one. I agree with you about 12au7s. I just didn't think I had enough experience to render a firm opinion. All my 12au7s came from my first amp, a Bravo V2. I was buying them before I heard of head-fi.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> You gave me the idea to try it again when you said you hadn't run into a situation where a tube sounded like a different one. I agree with you about 12au7s. I just didn't think I had enough experience to render a firm opinion. All my 12au7s came from my first amp, a Bravo V2. I was buying them before I heard of head-fi.



I have a Little Bear version of that Bravo. 2 actually. One stock, the other one I modded the mosfets, caps. Even though they are pretty cheap - build quality wise, they still are fairly decent sounding. I love the way those class A mosfets can handle the low end. Also the LB can switch between 6dj8 and 12au7 with just a jumper - no adapter required. Plus since they also don't use any negative feedback (unlike the Vali2) they should have more of a "tube sound".
The advantage the Vali2 has over them is since it does use negative feedback, you get a low gain option, which is pretty much necessary if you want to use IEMs. And auto bias. That's a god send for lazy folk, like me


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> I have a Little Bear version of that Bravo. 2 actually. One stock, the other one I modded the mosfets, caps. Even though they are pretty cheap - build quality wise, they still are fairly decent sounding. I love the way those class A mosfets can handle the low end. Also the LB can switch between 6dj8 and 12au7 with just a jumper - no adapter required. Plus since they also don't use any negative feedback (unlike the Vali2) they should have more of a "tube sound".
> The advantage the Vali2 has over them is since it does use negative feedback, you get a low gain option, which is pretty much necessary if you want to use IEMs. And auto bias. That's a god send for lazy folk, like me


I also have the Little Bear. I got it as an upgrade to the Bravo because of the bias adjust. Mine went thermal and would only work for about 3 minutes. They sent a replacement board but the muting relay never worked, that's when I decided to go with the Vali. Also, adjusting the bias was a problem because the board was so cramped. But I did like the sound. Did upgrading the mosfets really improve the sound? The only mod I did was to add an outboard capacitor in a box to suplement the 4200 uf capacitor they used.


----------



## timb5881

Mr Trev said:


> Glad to hear there's a simple explanation.
> 
> For my ears the 12au7s are my favourite tubes in the Vali2 so far. I just love how much "bigger" they sound compared to the 6dj8 types. Perhaps the 6sn7s are technically better, but they both sound close enough to me and I only need to use one adapter with the 12au7.
> Now I just need to get one of those cleartops (I'll just hang my head in shame and see myself out)


I agree, the 12AU7 tubes seem to give me a sound that enjoy.  The 6SN7 tubes have a really good sound, but so far the 12AU7 tubes are my favorite.


----------



## bcowen

timb5881 said:


> I agree, the 12AU7 tubes seem to give me a sound that enjoy.  The 6SN7 tubes have a really good sound, but so far the 12AU7 tubes are my favorite.



In the 12AU7 family you guys should try a Holland made Amperex 7316 if you can find one for a decent price.  Direct 12AU7 sub with a higher spec. Just don't even think about buying from BangyBangTubes on Ebay...he has some listed that are relabeled fakes.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> I also have the Little Bear. I got it as an upgrade to the Bravo because of the bias adjust. Mine went thermal and would only work for about 3 minutes. They sent a replacement board but the muting relay never worked, that's when I decided to go with the Vali. Also, adjusting the bias was a problem because the board was so cramped. But I did like the sound. Did upgrading the mosfets really improve the sound? The only mod I did was to add an outboard capacitor in a box to suplement the 4200 uf capacitor they used.



Not surprised you had problems. Like I said not the best quality. Adjusting the bias is a pain, trying to find a decent place to clamp the MM probes. The bias pots on mine also are pretty sloppy so it can be tricky getting the fine adjustments down right. Upgrading the mosfets reduced distortion and eliminated the HF roll off - pushed the top end extension from ~10khz to +30khz IIRC. I guess if that's an improvement really depends on how much you like high frequencies - some people like the roll off claiming it gives the amp a warmer more "tubey" sound.
My biggest motivation for getting the Vali was to get more options for rolling tubes. With the P1 i was pretty much stuck to 6dj8/12au7 tubes. I couldn't even get a 5670 to bias properly and that only needs 50ma more current.



bcowen said:


> In the 12AU7 family you guys should try a Holland made Amperex 7316 if you can find one for a decent price.  Direct 12AU7 sub with a higher spec. Just don't even think about buying from BangyBangTubes on Ebay...he has some listed that are relabeled fakes.



Feel free to send one my way


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> Not surprised you had problems. Like I said not the best quality. Adjusting the bias is a pain, trying to find a decent place to clamp the MM probes. The bias pots on mine also are pretty sloppy so it can be tricky getting the fine adjustments down right. Upgrading the mosfets reduced distortion and eliminated the HF roll off - pushed the top end extension from ~10khz to +30khz IIRC. I guess if that's an improvement really depends on how much you like high frequencies - some people like the roll off claiming it gives the amp a warmer more "tubey" sound.
> My biggest motivation for getting the Vali was to get more options for rolling tubes. With the P1 i was pretty much stuck to 6dj8/12au7 tubes. I couldn't even get a 5670 to bias properly and that only needs 50ma more current.


My concern was to get something that wasn't going to burn up in a year. And yes, I suspected the auto bias would allow the use of more tubes  (plus I'm also lazy).


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> My concern was to get something that wasn't going to burn up in a year. And yes, I suspected the auto bias would allow the use of more tubes  (plus I'm also lazy).



It's not the auto bias that allows more tubes. The Bravo and P1 can only handle a 300ma heater current. The Vali2 can go to 600ma (apparently the Project Ember can do up to 1a. supposedly enough current to allow using driver tubes - never heard of anybody trying that yet)


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> It's not the auto bias that allows more tubes. The Bravo and P1 can only handle a 300ma heater current. The Vali2 can go to 600ma (apparently the Project Ember can do up to 1a. supposedly enough current to allow using driver tubes - never heard of anybody trying that yet)


Ah, I see. With the Bravo I even had trouble running some 12au7s but that didn't have any bias adjustment at all. That's why I thought it was the bias. Thanks for the new information.


----------



## HellooooThar (Nov 5, 2018)

The 6N1P-EV...

All I can say is oh. my. god.

I liked the Amperex Globe 6CG7 I was using in my Vali 2. I thought, for the most part, it had a nice clean sound, open soundstage, decent bass. Because I have become a tube addict though, I couldn't resist the really cheap NOS Voshkod 6N1P-EV's that Viva Tubes had up for sale. Literally, think I paid $5 plus $8 shipping.

I have been using it for less than a week now, but I can't STOP USING IT. I want to put on my headphones and listen ALL THE TIME.

For anyone poking around for a good Vali tube upgrade, look no further. 

I think it might have finally "settled in" a bit. This evening I came back from a long drive to grab a friend from the train, fired up my Vali and it sounded the best it has since I put the Voshkod in.

While supposedly the best of these tubes are the ones from 1975, 74 and 77, mine still sounds amazing and it is from 1990 as best I can tell. To begin with, there is no microphonic quality and absolutely no background noise. Viva Tubes did their testing very well, or these things rock, or both. They excel at nearly every genre in my opinion. Overall, the tube has an exceptionally open and detailed presentation. It can hold its own in even the most detailed tracks (thinking Nickel Creek here: vocal harmonies + a guitar, mandolin, and violin). It never feels like it runs out of oomph or resolution when slammed with a bunch of details. Good soundstage, very open top end. There is real depth here.

Treble has tamed out a bit all of a sudden. I don't notice sibilance unless I am listening to a track with poor mastering. Tracks that aren't sibilant arent sibilant. There is wonderful resonance here too, the notes feel warm but just in the slightest. The detail is off the charts.

Mids are really good too. Vocals are eye-watering (tears?) levels of clear and crisp. The sound open, real, nor canned and recorded. Even heavily produced tracks (the likes of Travis Scott) retain the same amazing detail powers here, great sound stage.

Lows are big when they need to be, but punctual otherwise. The Voshkod can still literally shake my HE400is though.

I don't know what to say, other than if you haven't tried one of these $10 or so masterpieces, you're missing out BIG TIME. It is so dang smooth! There is this "rolling" feeling to everything on this tube, a certain kind of momentum that is just so pleasing.


----------



## riffrafff

HellooooThar said:


> The 6N1P-EV...
> 
> All I can say is oh. my. god.
> 
> ...




Welcome, Mr. Thar, to Head-Fi ("sorry 'bout your wallet," and all that).  

I haven't tried the 6N1P-EV tubes, but I had a similar experience with Voskhod Rocket 6N2P-EV and Reflektor 6N3P-E (requires adapter) tubes.  Pretty decent price-to-performance ratio.


----------



## HellooooThar

riffrafff said:


> Welcome, Mr. Thar, to Head-Fi ("sorry 'bout your wallet," and all that).
> 
> I haven't tried the 6N1P-EV tubes, but I had a similar experience with Voskhod Rocket 6N2P-EV and Reflektor 6N3P-E (requires adapter) tubes.  Pretty decent price-to-performance ratio.



Thanks for the welcome! 

I have a 6N3P-EV on the way, and a 6N23P as well. We shall see who wins the tube off! 

Also rip my wallet — I’m a college kid who now owns 100+ bucks worth of little glass thingies.


----------



## Keno18

I have a confession to make. I've been cheating on my faithful Vail 2/12au7a with a cheap 6ak5 buffer/Magni 3. I'm so ashamed...


----------



## HellooooThar

Keno18 said:


> I have a confession to make. I've been cheating on my faithful Vail 2/12au7a with a cheap 6ak5 buffer/Magni 3. I'm so ashamed...




Well, how is it??!


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> Well, how is it??!


So far very good. Very slightly less low end than the Vali but better detail in the bass. More forward in the vocals. Vali sometimes has better mid bass transient response. Slightly smoother high end. At times hard to tell them apart.


----------



## HellooooThar

Keno18 said:


> So far very good. Very slightly less low end than the Vali but better detail in the bass. More forward in the vocals. Vali sometimes has better mid bass transient response. Slightly smoother high end. At times hard to tell them apart.


Hm. Sounds neat-I wonder how running a tube buffer in front of the Vali 2 would sound. Maybe you could find a tube pairing that would be the best of both worlds. That would be an interesting experiment! 

As an aside, I finally got my hands on a Sylvania 6CG7 triple grey plate, silver shield (circular getter) today. It was pretty hard to find actually. It seems to do really well-first thing I noticed was how little impurity must have burned off during manufacturing-there is so little burn off residue (silver stuff) at the top. 

The 6N1P still wins in my book though. More exciting sound-the too end of the Sylvania 6CG7 seems BORING. It sounds good, but super neutral. I don’t want to say solid state, but kinda?


----------



## Mr Trev

HellooooThar said:


> Hm. Sounds neat-I wonder how running a tube buffer in front of the Vali 2 would sound. Maybe you could find a tube pairing that would be the best of both worlds. That would be an interesting experiment!
> 
> As an aside, I finally got my hands on a Sylvania 6CG7 triple grey plate, silver shield (circular getter) today. It was pretty hard to find actually. It seems to do really well-first thing I noticed was how little impurity must have burned off during manufacturing-there is so little burn off residue (silver stuff) at the top.
> 
> The 6N1P still wins in my book though. More exciting sound-the too end of the Sylvania 6CG7 seems BORING. It sounds good, but super neutral. I don’t want to say solid state, but kinda?



Tubing a tube??


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> Hm. Sounds neat-I wonder how running a tube buffer in front of the Vali 2 would sound. Maybe you could find a tube pairing that would be the best of both worlds. That would be an interesting experiment!
> 
> As an aside, I finally got my hands on a Sylvania 6CG7 triple grey plate, silver shield (circular getter) today. It was pretty hard to find actually. It seems to do really well-first thing I noticed was how little impurity must have burned off during manufacturing-there is so little burn off residue (silver stuff) at the top.
> 
> The 6N1P still wins in my book though. More exciting sound-the too end of the Sylvania 6CG7 seems BORING. It sounds good, but super neutral. I don’t want to say solid state, but kinda?


I thought about putting the buffer ahead of the Vali, but I don't think putting one tube front end ahead of another would be a good test. (Not to mention the spaghetti wiring I'd have to do to ab them.)

As for the 6cg7 I tried a Zenith and an Electro-harmonix with meh results. They're electrically the same as the 6sn7, but I find 6sn7 to be far superior. You just need to get an adapter and a socket saver and stack everything. 

I don't have any experience with a 6n1p, it sounds tempting.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Keno18 said:


> I have a confession to make. I've been cheating on my faithful Vail 2/12au7a with a cheap 6ak5 buffer/Magni 3. I'm so ashamed...


----------



## Keno18 (Nov 5, 2018)

ScubaMan2017 said:


>


Very good.


----------



## HellooooThar (Nov 5, 2018)

Keno18 said:


> I thought about putting the buffer ahead of the Vali, but I don't think putting one tube front end ahead of another would be a good test. (Not to mention the spaghetti wiring I'd have to do to ab them.)
> 
> As for the 6cg7 I tried a Zenith and an Electro-harmonix with meh results. They're electrically the same as the 6sn7, but I find 6sn7 to be far superior. You just need to get an adapter and a socket saver and stack everything.
> 
> I don't have any experience with a 6n1p, it sounds tempting.



The 6N1P-EV is worth a try for the price. Viva Tubes has them for really cheap. Next week post paycheck I will be trying to buy some Novosibirsk 6N1Ps from 1977. They are apparently the best of the best. I will obviously update y’all after I get them. No adapter needed is nice.


----------



## cebuboy

HellooooThar said:


> Thanks for the welcome!
> 
> I have a 6N3P-EV on the way, and a 6N23P as well. We shall see who wins the tube off!
> 
> Also rip my wallet — I’m a college kid who now owns 100+ bucks worth of little glass thingies.



Try looking for the 1960s 6N3P, the Fotons are nice. Tried a lot of 6N3P and their variants -DR -E -EV so far I liked the ‘60s best. Good luck.


----------



## dhm78

So far this is my favorite  RCA 6sn7 gtb


----------



## ScubaMan2017

dhm78 said:


> So far this is my favorite  RCA 6sn7 gtb


Would you mind posting the part number (or your favourite vendor) of that base adapter?


----------



## Keno18 (Nov 9, 2018)

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Would you mind posting the part number (or your favourite vendor) of that base adapter?


Hi ScubaMan, I used tubedepot.com, part #SK-6SN7-6922 6sn7 to 6922 adapter. To raise the adapter above the hole in the case you'll also need the SK-9SVR socket saver.


----------



## dhm78

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Would you mind posting the part number (or your favourite vendor) of that base adapter?


I bought the Vali 2 here on Head-fi and the seller included the socket saver and adapter.  Here's a  clearer picture.  I believe he said he found them on Ebay but I've also seen them on tubedepot.com. Hope this helps.


----------



## HellooooThar (Nov 9, 2018)

How much do you guys think a Lyr 1 with some genelex gold lions would sound with my 400I?

Significant upgrade over Vali 2 with my favorite 6N1P-EV?

I love my Vali, I’ve had it about a month now though and I feel like it’s just missing SOMETHING but I can’t put my finger on it. Maybe it’s musicality, or flow or I don’t know — thing sounds really good but perhaps lacks a bit of the life I would love over pure precision. I just don’t feel goosebumps despite having clear sound, or that same physical response.


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> How much do you guys think a Lyr 1 with some genelex gold lions would sound with my 400I?
> 
> Significant upgrade over Vali 2 with my favorite 6N1P-EV?
> 
> I love my Vali, I’ve had it about a month now though and I feel like it’s just missing SOMETHING but I can’t put my finger on it. Maybe it’s musicality, or flow or I don’t know — thing sounds really good but perhaps lacks a bit of the life I would love over pure precision. I just don’t feel goosebumps despite having clear sound, or that same physical response.


Have a look at the "Lyr vs Lyr 2" thread. Lots of info.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Keno18 said:


> Hi ScubaMan, I used tubedepot.com, part #SK-6SN7-6922 6sn7 to 6922 adapter. To raise the adapter above the hole in the case you'll also need the SK-9SVR socket saver.





dhm78 said:


> I bought the Vali 2 here on Head-fi and the seller included the socket saver and adapter.  Here's a  clearer picture.  I believe he said he found them on Ebay but I've also seen them on tubedepot.com. Hope this helps.



@dhm78  & @Keno18 ... Speedy reply. Thanks, eh. I still can’t articulate HOW my Vali 2 (with its non-descript, mystery tube) is different from my Magni3. I’m too busy gazing at the glowing filaments on top of the tube amp. I like it.

Once I replace my elderly device (feeding my Schiit MB), I’ll start farting around with tubes...


----------



## Keno18

ScubaMan2017 said:


> @dhm78  & @Keno18 ... Speedy reply. Thanks, eh. I still can’t articulate HOW my Vali 2 (with its non-descript, mystery tube) is different from my Magni3. I’m too busy gazing at the glowing filaments on top of the tube amp. I like it.
> 
> Once I replace my elderly device (feeding my Schiit MB), I’ll start farting around with tubes...


Maybe there isn't that much of a difference between the two with the stock tube. Just enough for you to like. When you start tube rolling you'll hopefully notice a bigger difference.


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Would you mind posting the part number (or your favourite vendor) of that base adapter?



There are several vendors on Ebay. I've purchased from the seller below (China) and from 'xulingmrs' (Hong Kong) and received good quality adapters from both. Cannot recommend the seller 'tubemalls' as the one I purchased from him had sticky goo all over it (assume it was epoxy that hadn't been mixed right and never set up).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-6SN7-T...?epid=166885933&hash=item363e65a9bb:rk:1:pf:0


Just spied this one from a US seller. Even has a CE logo on it, although I wonder (at that price) whether its valid. No experience with this seller so buyer beware, but it would be nice not having to wait for 3 weeks to get delivery from the far east:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-to-69...h=item25e33e778f:g:hyUAAOSw1JVZ8dFW:rk:2:pf:0

And one more thing on adapters: always, _always_ test them to be sure they are wired correctly before sticking in your amp. One of the first ones I bought a while back was not wired correctly. Fortunately I caught it (by testing) before I stuck it in the amp....


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> There are several vendors on Ebay. I've purchased from the seller below (China) and from 'xulingmrs' (Hong Kong) and received good quality adapters from both. Cannot recommend the seller 'tubemalls' as the one I purchased from him had sticky goo all over it (assume it was epoxy that hadn't been mixed right and never set up).
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-6SN7-T...?epid=166885933&hash=item363e65a9bb:rk:1:pf:0
> 
> ...



I've bought adapters from the store in the first link too. My second purchase arrived stupidly quick - iirc the seller upgraded my shipping to epacket at no extra cost. I'd recommend them

Also should point out that g1217 sells adapters too. They cost a bit more but do ship from the US so they could arrive much quicker. Haven't tried any of them yet, but supposedly they're built better than the typical Ebay finds. I'm just not sure if the 6sn7 adapter is meant to work for a 6dj8 or 12au7


----------



## jaywillin

Mr Trev said:


> I've bought adapters from the store in the first link too. My second purchase arrived stupidly quick - iirc the seller upgraded my shipping to epacket at no extra cost. I'd recommend them
> 
> Also should point out that g1217 sells adapters too. They cost a bit more but do ship from the US so they could arrive much quicker. Haven't tried any of them yet, but supposedly they're built better than the typical Ebay finds. I'm just not sure if the 6sn7 adapter is meant to work for a 6dj8 or 12au7



Jeremy makes the best !


----------



## Keno18 (Nov 11, 2018)

I have to thank HellooooThar for giving me the idea for this. He said he was looking for a different sound from the Vali. I was working on the FX Audio preamp /Magni sound that I couldn't quite get to sound like the Vali /RCA clear top combo. It hit me that maybe I should go in another direction. I pulled the upgrade GEs from the preamp and put in the stock tubes. The sound is now further from the Vali but still tube-like. It's got a hot high end, very fast punchy overall sound  (lively?). The bass is there not as blooming, but tight. Let's see what the tubes sound like when they burn in. Also replacement tubes are on ebay for $2.18 a pair.

Update: 12 hour burn-in seems to have wiped out most of the high end liveliness. Going back to the GE 5654s seems to best the 6j1s. Oh well.


----------



## volly

You crazy lot! I'm back, thought I'd share something as I feel the Vali 2 is still a great product by Schiit! 


 
Finally got around to ordering an adatper for some 12Au7 I have, thanks to you lot (going first!)  and sharing your experiences with 12Au7 bottles in the Vali. Salute! 

My Vali has been regulated to CD desktop duties, living a quieter life as of lately. 

Tube in the picture is the Genelex Gold Lion new production, I had this back in my first cMoy tube amp by Fred_Fred back in the day! 
Great tube, near silently, just a bit of background hiss but seems to goes away after a bit of use. Tame bass, mid and high's seem to be where this tube likes to show off. Great overall presentation, quite enveloping!

I have a Mil-Spec Sylvania 12au7 that I might roll-in later!

Right now, enjoying the Gold Lions with the Edition X's, whilst listening to some Michael Kiwanuka - Love & Hate.

 
Not bad Vali, not bad!


----------



## luckybaer

I'd like to know what your "cost of tubes to cost of Vali 2" ratio is.


----------



## Aremes

volly said:


> Finally got around to ordering an adatper for some 12Au7 I have, thanks to you lot (going first!)  and sharing your experiences with 12Au7 bottles in the Vali. Salute!



Hey @volly , can you post what 12Au7 adapter you bought and where? Thanks!


----------



## volly

Aremes said:


> Hey @volly , can you post what 12Au7 adapter you bought and where? Thanks!


There ya go mate!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-Conver...88-6922-Tube-DIY-Adapter-Socket-/232415799770
Fairly decent delivery time too!


----------



## Aremes

volly said:


> There ya go mate!
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-Conver...88-6922-Tube-DIY-Adapter-Socket-/232415799770
> Fairly decent delivery time too!



Thanks!


----------



## Keno18

You might want to look at this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-p...120609?hash=item2cb62f65e1:g:QRMAAOSwA3dYNUfL.
It's smaller and will fit in the Vali's tube socket without a socket saver. Been using it since August.


----------



## Aremes

Keno18 said:


> You might want to look at this one:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-p...120609?hash=item2cb62f65e1:g:QRMAAOSwA3dYNUfL.
> It's smaller and will fit in the Vali's tube socket without a socket saver. Been using it since August.



Excellent! Thanks for the info!


----------



## HellooooThar

Alright, as I sadly(? I think my wallet is sadder than I am) part ways with my Vali 2 for my coming Lyr 2, here are my findings as far as tubes are concerned. The following were all $20 or so tubes that I tried, things definately accessible for most people here. I just tried a whole bunch of different easy to find stuff. I will break down my thoughts!

Here is a list of what I tried, in no particular order: 
1. Phillips PCC88 (this thing has factory code DJER, but I can't make out any other symbols)
2. 6N1P-EV (Voshkod? Has gold grid, silver shield, two wire getter-1990) 
3. Amperex 6CG7 Orange Globe USA (1979 or 73, can't tell)
4.Tung Sol 6CG7 USA
5. Sylvania 6CG7 triple grey plate, silver shield
6. JJ E88CC Gold Pin

My setup was Tidal (master quality when avalible) ---> Topping D10 USB DAC (sabre chip I beleive) ---> Vali 2 ---> HE 400I

On to impressions:

1.      Phillips PCC88: At first, I really wasn’t sure what people had liked this tube for. It felt like there was a filter or tin can over the upper mids/treble - it was pulled back but still trying to be detailed. There was still a bit of sharpness to the treble despite this. Then I played some of a band called Tinariwen, a Tuareg group that performs Malian music. They have some amazing guitar distortion sounds and awesome electric bass and WOW-the bass on this thing is so warm and fuzzy. Guitar distortion just sounds so wonderful, and the electric bass notes roll off like honey. This bass performance carries across the board. Still feels like it can’t decide what it wants to be – is it dry and a tad sharp in the upper range, or a nice warm bassy analog sound? The soundstage is just eh-it is there, not bad, not good. Treble is meh in terms of detail and a bit sharp.

2.      Amperex “Globe” 6CG7 USA: This is an interesting one. The best sound stage between the PCC88 and JJ E88CC (Teslaish thing) by far, also the most exciting of the 6CG7 family. Great air to the sound, lots of separation and much more depth. Not incredibly warm though. The PCC88 is grungy and growly in the low notes, this exposes the grunge.  The only warmth is evident a bit in the bass. People say this thing is kind of “neutral” and I would agree, exception of the highs, which might be a tad forward and bright.

3.      JJ E88CC Gold Pin: Not a lot to hate here. The soundstage is eh -- better than the Phillips (slightly) but worse than the Amperex Globe. I think there is more “air” in it than the Phillips, but it is less warm. Maybe it is just my mind playing tricks on me, but it FEELS newer. I agree with what some others have said – it has a house sound to it. Excited maybe. Not the most relaxing sound, but not really too fatiguing. It lacks the strange “s” sound sibilance peak the Phillips and Amperex seem to have. The treble sounds bigger than especially the Phillips. Less overall detail in the high range though than the Vhosh. Sound stage never really wowed me. 

4.      Tung Sol 6CG7: I really didn’t think this one stood out in any way. I swear, I put it in and went “ehh, back to the 6N1P”. There was nothing about it that stood out against the Amperex, and it lacked the fun house sound of the Phillips or JJ. I threw it back in for a second time today and found it a bit better. Probably the easiest to listen to of the 6CG7s, being less boringly neutral in the highs than the Sylvania, but less sharp than the Amperex. If I feel like it, I might revisit this one later and let it burn in for a while, but for now, this is all the info you get. As an aside, a thing I liked more about it than the Sylvania was the soundstage. I don’t love how left/right the Sylvania is sometimes.

5.      Voshkod 6N1P-EV (1990-04): When I first put this tube in, I was coming from the Amperex, which I liked at the time. It immediately blew me away. It has some of the warmth of the Phillips, but an amazing kind of “flow” to it. Sounds resonate in a really pleasing way. The top end is incredibly detailed and fun to listen to, while the mid isn’t too forward but rich in detail. The bass is tight but powerful. Soundstage is wonderful for this class of tube (6922,E88CC etc.) considering the price and the tube isn’t microphonic at all. It sounds warm and playful and runs warm (glows the most) too! I really love this thing. For the price, you can’t freaking go wrong. I got mine NOS tested from VivaTubes for $5 plus shipping. What the…

6.      Sylvania 6CG7 Triple Gray Plate, Silver Shield: This tube was the most expensive, and at first comes off as being neutral as with all the 6CG7s, but I don’t think it is now. It seems natural, but dare I say a dull? Good warm bass, but just flat and flabby. Some people (including Schiit themselves) found that the 6CG7 sounded flat on the Lyr, and I think that might be the case on the Vali as well. The soundstage and the bass is probably the only really redeeming category for any of the 6CG7s honestly – they are all pretty good in that respect. But why this thing when the 6N1P-EV exists for less money? I don’t know.

Bottom line -- best of my tests? Those 6N1P-EVs. Apparently there are even better ones out there than the ones I have. An amazing value. I don't doubt that there are other great options, but that one is a good one when wallet is concerned. It won't make crap sound good though, so be careful. Siblant recordings will sound siblant. Bassless recordings won't have bass.


----------



## Mr Trev

volly said:


> There ya go mate!
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-Conver...88-6922-Tube-DIY-Adapter-Socket-/232415799770
> Fairly decent delivery time too!





Keno18 said:


> You might want to look at this one:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-p...120609?hash=item2cb62f65e1:g:QRMAAOSwA3dYNUfL.
> It's smaller and will fit in the Vali's tube socket without a socket saver. Been using it since August.



I have the same adapter as the one Volly posted and it fits my Vali fine. There isn't any free space around it, but that shouldn't matter. The only problem I've had with my adapter is that the ink rubbed off the label pretty quick and I needed to "relabel" it with a Sharpie so I didn't mix it up with my other adapters


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> I have the same adapter as the one Volly posted and it fits my Vali fine. There isn't any free space around it, but that shouldn't matter. The only problem I've had with my adapter is that the ink rubbed off the label pretty quick and I needed to "relabel" it with a Sharpie so I didn't mix it up with my other adapters


I had that one until one of the pins snapped, and yes the ink does rub off quickly.  The one I described is the same size as a socket saver and no, the ink doesn't rub off. But it's bakelite or plastic if that matters.


----------



## HellooooThar (Nov 13, 2018)

I think I was a little too critical towards the 6CG7s in the Vali 2....They aren't all bad. But man, that Sylvania that was supposed to be great? It was terrible!

Revisiting all my tubes, I actually quite like the Amperex Globe! Highs are more transparent than I originally gave them credit for. Honestly, good! Maybe I will try some of these things in the Lyr after all. The low end is strong but a little floppy tho, the highs lean towards siblance a bit and the mids are a bit cages sounding. But I like it, lots of height to the sound stage which is neat.

EDIT: What the...these things are hard to find! 70s Amperex USA Globe 6CG7s have vanished from the internet!


----------



## bcowen

HellooooThar said:


> EDIT: What the...these things are hard to find! 70s Amperex USA Globe 6CG7s have vanished from the internet!



You mean like these?  




 

Have you ever tried the RCA cleartop (side getter)?  Great sounding tubes and _much_ better than the chrome-dome versions. They used to be almost free, but I haven't looked at prices recently.


----------



## bcowen

HellooooThar said:


> Alright, as I sadly(? I think my wallet is sadder than I am) part ways with my Vali 2 for my coming Lyr 2, here are my findings as far as tubes are concerned. The following were all $20 or so tubes that I tried, things definately accessible for most people here. I just tried a whole bunch of different easy to find stuff. I will break down my thoughts!
> 
> Here is a list of what I tried, in no particular order:
> 1. Phillips PCC88 (this thing has factory code DJER, but I can't make out any other symbols)
> ...



Really nice review! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


----------



## Robert Padgett

I am very new to tubes. In fact Vali 2 arrived and it is the first tube HP amp I have ever listened to. I want to hear this stock tube for a while then I am jumping on a Telefunken... been facinatedsince reading this txt note: 
"Grateful Dead 1974-10-19 Winterland ArenaSan Francisco, CA
Lineage:16 track "truck monitor mix" > 2 track mixdown reel(Garcia's) > R @ 3 3/4 ips. > FLAC.
Transfer info:  Akai GX636 direct tape head output  > _*Bottlehead tube tape pre w/ a pair of Telefunken tubes circa 1960*_  > Apogee Mini Me 24/96  > Apogee Mini DAC monitoring and mastering  > FLAC"


----------



## HellooooThar

bcowen said:


> You mean like these?
> 
> 
> Have you ever tried the RCA cleartop (side getter)?  Great sounding tubes and _much_ better than the chrome-dome versions. They used to be almost free, but I haven't looked at prices recently.



I never did try the RCA. The reasoning behind this was that my ears seem to be quite sensitive to sibilance and I am listening on HE400Is, which in my opinion tend to be a bit bright anyways or respond poorly to any added brightness. I had heard the RCA was generally thought of as a bit brighter. 

Interestingly, those Amperex 6CG7s are not like the ones I have. Those are the short plate versions, as far as I can tell. The ones I have are the "ladder" type double gray plates. I will take a picture on my phone and post that. Interestingly, the exact same physical charecteristics of the Amprerex type I have can be found in certain GE 6CG7s. The heater wire runs across the top between the two triodes. They have a REALLY good low end in my book. Grumbly, strong and thick but not overpowering. Space is great too, instruments can really spread out. Feels like a very natural presentation. Pic coming in a second.


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> You mean like these?
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever tried the RCA cleartop (side getter)?  Great sounding tubes and _much_ better than the chrome-dome versions. They used to be almost free, but I haven't looked at prices recently.


partsconnexion.com has 'em for $9.97. Just checked today.


----------



## HellooooThar (Nov 13, 2018)

See that heater wire? It is interesting, because over on the Lyr tube rolling thread they say the 6CG7 doesn’t sound great on the Lyr. Since I have a Lyr coming, this upsets me .  One thing quoted (by Jason from Schiit himself) is that the 6CG7 is operating below its optimal plate voltage and is in a non linear area on its curve. The Lyr pushes 200V I believe. The Vali? 60. That puts it in an even worse spot on the Vali, and I think it sounds great! Humph.


----------



## HellooooThar




----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> See that heater wire? It is interesting, because over on the Lyr tube rolling thread they say the 6CG7 doesn’t sound great on the Lyr. Since I have a Lyr coming, this upsets me .  One thing quoted (by Jason from Schiit himself) is that the 6CG7 is operating below its optimal plate voltage and is in a non linear area on its curve. The Lyr pushes 200V I believe. The Vali? 60. That puts it in an even worse spot on the Vali, and I think it sounds great! Humph.


Have you tried a 6sn7? The 6cg7 is supposed to electrically identical to it but I think the 6sn7 sounds better. You'd need an octal adapter. (Not for the Lyr of course.) But your hearing is way different from mine.


----------



## HellooooThar (Nov 14, 2018)

Keno18 said:


> Have you tried a 6sn7? The 6cg7 is supposed to electrically identical to it but I think the 6sn7 sounds better. You'd need an octal adapter. (Not for the Lyr of course.) But your hearing is way different from mine.



No! I haven’t yet. It was one on my list, but I never got quite that deep in to adapter land.

Edit: I am liking this dang Amperex more and more. I have had it running for 6-7 hours now, plus the time I used it before. It honestly is good. I am going to try and get the GE tubes that look the same (exact physical compies) for my Lyr. I dontcare if others hate em, I love it!

Edit 2: I’m stupid. They need 600 Ma, Lyr 2 is only rated at 450. RIP.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> You mean like these?
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever tried the RCA cleartop (side getter)?  Great sounding tubes and _much_ better than the chrome-dome versions. They used to be almost free, but I haven't looked at prices recently.



Hey, so which is the one cleartop to rule them all - the 12au7 or 6cg7?

btw, how's the nixie clock sound


----------



## HellooooThar

Mr Trev said:


> Hey, so which is the one cleartop to rule them all - the 12au7 or 6cg7?
> 
> btw, how's the nixie clock sound



I think most people say 12AX7s in general have better holographics and wider soundstages, but I haven't tried them. I'd try one of these little Amperex 6CG7s. I really love this thing! I listened to it for 7 hours last night.


----------



## Keno18 (Nov 14, 2018)

Mr Trev said:


> Hey, so which is the one cleartop to rule them all - the 12au7 or 6cg7?
> 
> btw, how's the nixie clock sound


Most of the talk is about the 12au7a.  It's my favorite tube in the Vali. Haven't heard the 6cg7.

Edit : I have heard other 6cg7 just  not the clear tops.


----------



## HellooooThar

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N27P-ECC8...h=item360b0306da:g:6okAAOSw3utY6d-x:rk:4:pf:0

Also, what are these? According to the web they are 6.3V heater, ~330MA tubes. Used in VHF originally. Anyone heard about them? Looks like they should drop in?

https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6n27p.html


----------



## Mr Trev

HellooooThar said:


> I think most people say 12AX7s in general have better holographics and wider soundstages, but I haven't tried them. I'd try one of these little Amperex 6CG7s. I really love this thing! I listened to it for 7 hours last night.



Have to say, I'm tempted by those. I have an Orange Globe 6dj7 ('68 vintage IIRC) and it so far is my favourite "native" tube for the Vali.



Keno18 said:


> Most of the talk is about the 12au7a.  It's my favorite tube in the Vali. Haven't heard the 6cg7.
> 
> Edit : I have heard other 6cg7 just  not the clear tops.



I have heard lots of talk about the 12au7 cleartops, all of it positive. Not as much talk about the 6cg7 variant, but from the few impressions I've heard: good bass, big soundstage. I haven't heard anybody compare the two.
They both are pretty cheap and still easy to get so maybe one day I'll grab some.


----------



## bcowen

HellooooThar said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N27P-ECC8...h=item360b0306da:g:6okAAOSw3utY6d-x:rk:4:pf:0
> 
> Also, what are these? According to the web they are 6.3V heater, ~330MA tubes. Used in VHF originally. Anyone heard about them? Looks like they should drop in?
> 
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6n27p.html



They are pin and electrically compatible, but the 6N27P (assuming it is equivalent to a 6GM8) has less than half the amplification of a 6922. May work just fine, but the lower gain _could_ cause noise issues.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Hey, so which is the one cleartop to rule them all - the 12au7 or 6cg7?
> 
> btw, how's the nixie clock sound



LOL!  As if there was such a thing.    Funny that my absolute favorite 12AU7 type tube in the multitude of Cary Audio components I've had over the years has been the Amperex 7316. Sounded good -- but not great -- in both the Vali2 and Lyr3. Demoted from King to plebeian. I tried several different 12AU7's and 6CG7's in the Vali 2, but none sounded as good as an early 60's Telefunken 6DJ8.  I've always preferred a plain old 6DJ8 to a 6922 or 7308 (more natural with richer harmonics), and Telefunken was one of the best at making 6DJ8's. Problem is finding one that isn't microphonic as that's always been a major liability of that tube type.  But if you can find one that's not microphonic and with decently balanced triodes it will be a treat in the Vali2.  

I built that clock from a kit probably 20 years ago and other than power outages and a couple moves it's been on 24/7. I have quite a few nixies stashed away for replacement but haven't had to change one yet.


----------



## timb5881

Keno18 said:


> Most of the talk is about the 12au7a.  It's my favorite tube in the Vali. Haven't heard the 6cg7.
> 
> Edit : I have heard other 6cg7 just  not the clear tops.


I am with you, the 12AU7 tubes have been my favorites as of late.  I still pop in 6922 or  a 6SN7 and my favorites often change.


----------



## HellooooThar

Mr Trev said:


> Have to say, I'm tempted by those. I have an Orange Globe 6dj7 ('68 vintage IIRC) and it so far is my favourite "native" tube for the Vali.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The 6CG7 has the most bass I have heard out of any tube thus far. My HE400Is literally shake. The sub bass rolloff? Fixed  Still good soundstage. I honestly might try them on the Lyr 2, but keep a really close eye on it. I saw one guy who ran 6CG7s in his lyr2 for a while and never had problems. I am only asking 150MA more...probably safe. In any event, I will smell for burning


----------



## Keno18

This is how I see the whole tube search thing: I feel what good is it if you find one tube that does it for you. But you only have that one or two tubes. You've got your sound but for how long? When I found the clear tops, they did it for me. They're relatively cheap and plentiful so I bought a dozen. I know I'm locked in but I can live with that. And I'll have a consistent sound for a while to come. There will always be something better than what I have, but how much better do I need or want. Sometimes certainty is good too. Just a thought.


----------



## HellooooThar

Yes. I love that you said that, because that’s exactly how I have been feeling. Buying this Lyr has actually frustrated me more-I feel like tubes are so expensive for the Lyr that I could actually make a mistake, and it doesn’t feel fun. I think I like the warm sound signature at the moment, and so I’ll just try to get that back.


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> Yes. I love that you said that, because that’s exactly how I have been feeling. Buying this Lyr has actually frustrated me more-I feel like tubes are so expensive for the Lyr that I could actually make a mistake, and it doesn’t feel fun. I think I like the warm sound signature at the moment, and so I’ll just try to get that back.


I wish I was in your shoes to have a better class of amp. I guess the trick here is to find a tube with that warm sound you like and run it in the Lyr. (Even if it means an adapter.) If you have what you want stock up and settle in.


----------



## HellooooThar

Keno18 said:


> I wish I was in your shoes to have a better class of amp. I guess the trick here is to find a tube with that warm sound you like and run it in the Lyr. (Even if it means an adapter.) If you have what you want stock up and settle in.



Well, as much as I hope I’ll like it, I’m worried that it won’t be as good as I hoped it would be. Also, I’m realizing I can’t really AFFORD the thing — I got it for relatively cheap (200), considering what I paid for my Vali but tubes are exponentially more expensive. It remains to be seen. Obviously I will let everyone know what I think of it when I get it. It has EH 6922s, so I am not too encouraged....


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> Well, as much as I hope I’ll like it, I’m worried that it won’t be as good as I hoped it would be. Also, I’m realizing I can’t really AFFORD the thing — I got it for relatively cheap (200), considering what I paid for my Vali but tubes are exponentially more expensive. It remains to be seen. Obviously I will let everyone know what I think of it when I get it. It has EH 6922s, so I am not too encouraged....


I'm pretty sure you'll like it. I tried the 6922 EH and the high end exaggerated. Believe it or not I found the 12ax7 EH to be very warm sounding. It's advertised as having a nos sound even though it's new production.


----------



## HellooooThar

Keno18 said:


> I'm pretty sure you'll like it. I tried the 6922 EH and the high end exaggerated. Believe it or not I found the 12ax7 EH to be very warm sounding. It's advertised as having a nos sound even though it's new production.



REally??! Good low end on it too? I was thinking of the 12AX7 or 6922 Genelex Gold Lion.


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> REally??! Good low end on it too? I was thinking of the 12AX7 or 6922 Genelex Gold Lion.


Yes, good low end. Can't comment on the gold lion 12ax7, but the 6922 also has a hot high end and I found the bass to be lacking.


----------



## HellooooThar

Keno18 said:


> Yes, good low end. Can't comment on the gold lion 12ax7, but the 6922 also has a hot high end and I found the bass to be lacking.



Do you need an adapter for the 12AX7?


----------



## Keno18 (Nov 15, 2018)

HellooooThar said:


> Do you need an adapter for the 12AX7?


Yes, got mine on ebay. There appear to be 2 main types. One is metal and the other is plastic. I use the plastic because it has a smaller diameter and you have more play when inserting it into the chassis. Others prefer the metal which is larger and has a tighter fit. I first had the metal one. But I didn't insert it into the chassis by itself because when I eyeballed it looked large and I didn't want to chance scratching anything. Also I guess I was too rough with it and managed to snap off one of the pins. I ordered a second plastic one 3 days ago and it already arrived in the US. Very fast epacket delivery. The url for it should be a few posts above, if not, I can post it again.


----------



## HellooooThar

Keno18 said:


> Yes, got mine on ebay. There appear to be 2 main types. One is metal and the other is plastic. I use the plastic because it has a smaller diameter and you have more play when inserting it into the chassis. Others prefer the metal which is larger and has a tighter fit. I first had the metal one. But I didn't insert it into the chassis by itself because when I eyeballed it looked large and I didn't want to chance scratching anything. Also I guess I was too rough with it and managed to snap off one of the pins. I ordered a second plastic one 3 days ago and it already arrived in the US. Very fast epacket delivery. The url for it should be a few posts above, if not, I can post it again.



Well what the hell! I got my Lyr, and it turns out the EH tubes that came with it are 12AX7s! But guess what-no adapters! What??!


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> Well what the hell! I got my Lyr, and it turns out the EH tubes that came with it are 12AX7s! But guess what-no adapters! What??!


Cool! Huh, looked the Lyr 2 said it was 6922s. No matter you got what you need. Let me know how it sounds.


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## HellooooThar

I seem to have been incedentally trolled. It needs 6922s. I have 12AX7 and socket savers. No work.


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## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> I seem to have been incedentally trolled. It needs 6922s. I have 12AX7 and socket savers. No work.


Ok, could be worse, just get some 6922s to make sure it works. If it does then get the adapters for the 12ax7s.


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## HellooooThar (Nov 15, 2018)

Keno18 said:


> Ok, could be worse, just get some 6922s to make sure it works. If it does then get the adapters for the 12ax7s.



Yeah, I think I have some 6N2P-EVs on the way, should get here tomorrow. The wait though 

Nothing special, late 80s stock but they were $7.

The real question tho-why does no one in the US stock 12AX7 adapters??!


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## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> Yeah, I think I have some 6N2P-EVs on the way, should get here tomorrow. The wait though
> 
> Nothing special, late 80s stock but they were $7.
> 
> The real question tho-why does no one in the US stock 12AX7 adapters??!


Do you have two tubes that you can mix like a 6cg7 and another one even if it's the stock 6bz7 just to see if it fires up? I guess there's not enough of a demand for them. This interest in the 12a-7 tube may be too recent for retailers to catch on.


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## HellooooThar

Keno18 said:


> Do you have two tubes that you can mix like a 6cg7 and another one even if it's the stock 6bz7 just to see if it fires up? I guess there's not enough of a demand for them. This interest in the 12a-7 tube may be too recent for retailers to catch on.



Sadly no. I sent the guy a PM, he’s really nice and I’m sure he didn’t mean to screw with me. I just sent my Vali out this morning   with its tubes. I did turn it on, and it definitely turns on. Looks like I will be using the Sabaj PHA3 for a day ​


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## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> Sadly no. I sent the guy a PM, he’s really nice and I’m sure he didn’t mean to screw with me. I just sent my Vali out this morning   with its tubes. I did turn it on, and it definitely turns on. Looks like I will be using the Sabaj PHA3 for a day ​


Whew, good, I was worried.


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## bcowen

HellooooThar said:


> Sadly no. I sent the guy a PM, he’s really nice and I’m sure he didn’t mean to screw with me. I just sent my Vali out this morning   with its tubes. I did turn it on, and it definitely turns on. Looks like I will be using the Sabaj PHA3 for a day ​



I'm wondering if the 12AX7 will work without an adapter.  The cathodes, plates, and grids are wired the same between the 6922 and 12AX7.  The only difference is the heater. The 12A*7 family will operate on either 12.6 volts or 6.3 volts. If the socket heater wiring is in series you get 6.3 volts and if paralleled through pin 9 you get 12.6 volts. The Vali2 is wired in series (has to be as pin 9 is not connected for a 6922), so technically you should still get 6.3 volts to the heater if you plug a 12AX7 in there (and the 12AX7 doesn't care which of the two voltages you throw at it). I can't guarantee it will work, but with the pin wiring being the same for the tube elements there's not much chance of anything being damaged by giving it a try. If the 12AX7 lights up, give it a listen. If it doesn't light up, then nevermind.


----------



## HellooooThar

bcowen said:


> I'm wondering if the 12AX7 will work without an adapter.  The cathodes, plates, and grids are wired the same between the 6922 and 12AX7.  The only difference is the heater. The 12A*7 family will operate on either 12.6 volts or 6.3 volts. If the socket heater wiring is in series you get 6.3 volts and if paralleled through pin 9 you get 12.6 volts. The Vali2 is wired in series (has to be as pin 9 is not connected for a 6922), so technically you should still get 6.3 volts to the heater if you plug a 12AX7 in there (and the 12AX7 doesn't care which of the two voltages you throw at it). I can't guarantee it will work, but with the pin wiring being the same for the tube elements there's not much chance of anything being damaged by giving it a try. If the 12AX7 lights up, give it a listen. If it doesn't light up, then nevermind.



So that was my thinking as well. It does get power, but it barely glows and only one of the triodes glows. I think it’s wired In parallel, since Lyr 2 takes two tubes, I believe one for each channel. Either way, I got no sound out of the thing. Might work in vali though, since it is series. I’ll be able to use those 6N2P-EVs if they get here tomorrow until I deduce if the 6CG7 can be risked. I’ve heard of people doing it, never heard of a Lyr failing. Is 150 extra MA a lot?


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> So that was my thinking as well. It does get power, but it barely glows and only one of the triodes glows. I think it’s wired In parallel, since Lyr 2 takes two tubes, I believe one for each channel. Either way, I got no sound out of the thing. Might work in vali though, since it is series. I’ll be able to use those 6N2P-EVs if they get here tomorrow until I deduce if the 6CG7 can be risked. I’ve heard of people doing it, never heard of a Lyr failing. Is 150 extra MA a lot?


Maybe you could ask that question on the Lyr tube rolling thread? Someone there should know.


----------



## bcowen

HellooooThar said:


> So that was my thinking as well. It does get power, but it barely glows and only one of the triodes glows. I think it’s wired In parallel, since Lyr 2 takes two tubes, I believe one for each channel. Either way, I got no sound out of the thing. Might work in vali though, since it is series. I’ll be able to use those 6N2P-EVs if they get here tomorrow until I deduce if the 6CG7 can be risked. I’ve heard of people doing it, never heard of a Lyr failing. Is 150 extra MA a lot?



Ahhh....my bust.  I was thinking Vali2 'cause I didn't pay attention. Still the same (failed) logic on the heater wiring though, but if it doesn't work then that answers the question. 

I was inclined to say 'don't risk it' on the 6CG7 with the higher heater current draw, but I see Schiit lists a 6N1P as an acceptable substitute right in the manual. I looked at three different spec sheets for the 6N1P and they all show a 600ma current draw on the heater.  So as always proceed at your own risk, but if the Lyr 2 can handle a 6N1P it should be able to handle a 6CG7. Hope that's not failed logic again.


----------



## HellooooThar

bcowen said:


> Ahhh....my bust.  I was thinking Vali2 'cause I didn't pay attention. Still the same (failed) logic on the heater wiring though, but if it doesn't work then that answers the question.
> 
> I was inclined to say 'don't risk it' on the 6CG7 with the higher heater current draw, but I see Schiit lists a 6N1P as an acceptable substitute right in the manual. I looked at three different spec sheets for the 6N1P and they all show a 600ma current draw on the heater.  So as always proceed at your own risk, but if the Lyr 2 can handle a 6N1P it should be able to handle a 6CG7. Hope that's not failed logic again.




Hah! Yeah, the manual is confusing and definitely conflicting. Ugh...now back to the tube searching grind.


----------



## HellooooThar

Well, just bought a pair of 6922 Phillips JAN. $30 bucks for a pair after shipping...but guy said he got them from a friend who said they were NOS, he tested them, didn't like them, and sold them. Had high seller ratings (100%) so I figured hey, less than half price.


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## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I'm wondering if the 12AX7 will work without an adapter.  The cathodes, plates, and grids are wired the same between the 6922 and 12AX7.  The only difference is the heater. The 12A*7 family will operate on either 12.6 volts or 6.3 volts. If the socket heater wiring is in series you get 6.3 volts and if paralleled through pin 9 you get 12.6 volts. The Vali2 is wired in series (has to be as pin 9 is not connected for a 6922), so technically you should still get 6.3 volts to the heater if you plug a 12AX7 in there (and the 12AX7 doesn't care which of the two voltages you throw at it). I can't guarantee it will work, but with the pin wiring being the same for the tube elements there's not much chance of anything being damaged by giving it a try. If the 12AX7 lights up, give it a listen. If it doesn't light up, then nevermind.





bcowen said:


> Ahhh....my bust.  I was thinking Vali2 'cause I didn't pay attention. Still the same (failed) logic on the heater wiring though, but if it doesn't work then that answers the question.
> 
> I was inclined to say 'don't risk it' on the 6CG7 with the higher heater current draw, but I see Schiit lists a 6N1P as an acceptable substitute right in the manual. I looked at three different spec sheets for the 6N1P and they all show a 600ma current draw on the heater.  So as always proceed at your own risk, but if the Lyr 2 can handle a 6N1P it should be able to handle a 6CG7. Hope that's not failed logic again.



I actually tried running a 12au7 sans adapter (used one of the crappy Chinese tubes that came with my P1 - just in case). No joy, didn't even light the heaters.

Do 6sn7s work in the Lyr2? They're basically the same as 6cg7, right. I'd say if the 6sn7 is a no go, then it probably isn't even worth trying the 6cg7


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## HellooooThar

Mr Trev said:


> I actually tried running a 12au7 sans adapter (used one of the crappy Chinese tubes that came with my P1 - just in case). No joy, didn't even light the heaters.
> 
> Do 6sn7s work in the Lyr2? They're basically the same as 6cg7, right. I'd say if the 6sn7 is a no go, then it probably isn't even worth trying the 6cg7



I think they worked in Lyr 1, but not 2. For some reason Schiit lowered the stated available heater current. No idea why they would do that, but they did. 

Also yikes, the Lyr tube rolling thread is scary - people just tell you what tubes they have for sale and that they are great value (of course they are  ) and tell you to go read the entire thread. Sheesh.


----------



## bcowen

HellooooThar said:


> Well, just bought a pair of 6922 Phillips JAN. $30 bucks for a pair after shipping...but guy said he got them from a friend who said they were NOS, he tested them, didn't like them, and sold them. Had high seller ratings (100%) so I figured hey, less than half price.



Please tell me they aren't labeled as Philips ECG with blue or green print? Those are late 80's to mid-90's production and are some of the nastiest sounding tubes I've ever heard...


----------



## HellooooThar

bcowen said:


> Please tell me they aren't labeled as Philips ECG with blue or green print? Those are late 80's to mid-90's production and are some of the nastiest sounding tubes I've ever heard...



Oh don't worry, I asked to cancel the order once I saw some Amperex Holland 6DJ8s, while lettering, 1962 NOS for $45 matched pair. I bought those instead.

EDIT: My quest now is to have the worst sounding lyr on HeadFi


----------



## Mr Trev

HellooooThar said:


> Oh don't worry, I asked to cancel the order once I saw some Amperex Holland 6DJ8s, while lettering, 1962 NOS for $45 matched pair. I bought those instead.
> 
> EDIT: My quest now is to have the worst sounding lyr on HeadFi



Sweet. Let me know when you get some 12au7 adapters and I'll sell you a pair of generic Chinese 12au7s

Probably a good call cancelling that Philips. I have a JAN 6922. Unusually average, at best


----------



## HellooooThar

Mr Trev said:


> Sweet. Let me know when you get some 12au7 adapters and I'll sell you a pair of generic Chinese 12au7s
> 
> Probably a good call cancelling that Philips. I have a JAN 6922. Unusually average, at best



Yeah, let's make this thing an over priced and over built effects box. Got any tubes so microphonic you can hear your own breath through them?


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## bcowen

HellooooThar said:


> Also yikes, the Lyr tube rolling thread is scary - people just tell you what tubes they have for sale and that they are great value (of course they are  ) and tell you to go read the entire thread. Sheesh.



Honestly, I think that's a pretty unfair characterization of that thread. Yeah it goes on forever, but there's a lot of valuable info and contributions by some very knowledgeable and experienced people.


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## HellooooThar

bcowen said:


> Honestly, I think that's a pretty unfair characterization of that thread. Yeah it goes on forever, but there's a lot of valuable info and contributions by some very knowledgeable and experienced people.



Is it ever HUGE! I’ve been sifting through it all day. Guess I just got a little annoyed cause I’d been reading it for days, asked if what I found was a good deal and was told by 2 different people to go back to page 1000, then read all the way up to page 1280 (what it’s on now) to get a sense. In the time it took to write that, either of them (who definitely knew) could have told me. But anyways, no big deal. I have tubes in the mail, and a giant Lyr paperweight on my desk!


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## Mr Trev (Nov 15, 2018)

HellooooThar said:


> Yeah, let's make this thing an over priced and over built effects box. Got any tubes so microphonic you can hear your own breath through them?



No, but the stock 6bz7 I have makes this mad scientist electrical sizzling type noise. Too bad you need two…

Stick with the Lyr thread. Sure it is huge, but I'm sure there is plenty of good info to be had if you spend the time sifting through (too bad the search feature still isn't up to snuff - at least I never get any decent results trying to search for anything since the forum changed earlier this year). Haven't been lurking round there long myself. I'm mostly there due to the fact there is way more traffic on their thread and all the tubes they mention can be used in the Vali. Probably the thing that scares me most about that thread is the amount of money some people are willing to throw at tubes

<edit>From what I've read elsewhere, those Matsushitas you mentioned are supposed to be pretty decent
<edit again>I can believe they're still censoring Matsushita


----------



## KoshNaranek

HellooooThar said:


> I think they worked in Lyr 1, but not 2. For some reason Schiit lowered the stated available heater current. No idea why they would do that, but they did.




Lyr1 has an AC heater circuit rated for 600ma. Lyr2 uses a regulated DC heater circuit to lower the noise floor. (I own both) That is why the current rating decreased to 400ma. Lyr2 also runs hotter because of this but sounds sweeter.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> <edit>From what I've read elsewhere, those Matsu****as you mentioned are supposed to be pretty decent
> <edit again>I can believe they're still censoring Matsu****a



It's 'cause you're spelling it wrong. It's Matsuschiita.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> It's 'cause you're spelling it wrong. It's Matsuschiita.



Awww, szhit!


----------



## HellooooThar

bcowen said:


> It's 'cause you're spelling it wrong. It's Matsuschiita.



Would have fooled me! I swear I have to check my spelling of Amperex sometimes


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## HellooooThar (Nov 16, 2018)

Well, got my 6N2P-EVs! I thought they were 90s stock, but they are actually 76, matching date codes! Voskhod made, silver pins. Triple  mica, original boxes!! Smells like communism 

I’ve only been listening for a minute or two, but I’m already impressed. So good. My 400Is really came alive. Looks great too! (I’ll get a pic). Thanks to everyone who helped out!


----------



## HellooooThar

[/url]

I’m already in love!


----------



## Mr Trev

HellooooThar said:


> [/url]
> 
> I’m already in love!



How you like the D10? I really need to get a better (read more reliable) DAC for my music server


----------



## HellooooThar

Mr Trev said:


> How you like the D10? I really need to get a better (read more reliable) DAC for my music server



I think it’s amazing considering the price tag. I’d rate it worth a try at any rate, being USB powered is a plus. Soundstage might be a tad left right, but honestly fine. While my MusicHall 25.3 is at home and not at school with me, I’d say this dude holds up. Doesn’t add much, doesn’t subtract much either. Well built too.


----------



## Aremes

HellooooThar said:


> Well, got my 6N2P-EVs! I thought they were 90s stock, but they are actually 76, matching date codes! Voskhod made, silver pins. Triple  mica, original boxes!! Smells like communism
> 
> I’ve only been listening for a minute or two, but I’m already impressed. So good. My 400Is really came alive. Looks great too! (I’ll get a pic). Thanks to everyone who helped out!



Have you (or anyone else here) used the 6N2P-EV in the Vali 2? I know you bought them for your Lyr, just curious if they work in the Vali 2 and how they sound?


----------



## HellooooThar

Aremes said:


> Have you (or anyone else here) used the 6N2P-EV in the Vali 2? I know you bought them for your Lyr, just curious if they work in the Vali 2 and how they sound?



They darn well should work. No adapter needed either. They also should sound better than the 6N1P, which is designed to operate at much higher plate voltages than it gets, meaning it’s kind of in a “non linear” are on its performance graph. I think the 6N2P is designed for lower voltages. Also needs less heater current, but that’s not a big issue (Vali 2 has up to 600MA, so it can just handle a 6N1P). The 6N2P is SO CHEAP right now on Vivatubes.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Greetings fellow Vali rollers, I am new to tube headphone amps, and I have been listening exclusively to the Vali 2 with stock tube. I have ordered the Telefunken tube that first attracted me to tubes. A brief mention in a note--"Transfer info:  Akai GX636 direct tape head output  > _*Bottlehead tube tape pre w/ a pair of Telefunken tubes circa 1960 *_ > Apogee Mini Me 24/96  > Apogee Mini DAC monitoring and mastering  > FLAC". The one I purchased is new, not 1960s vintage, and boy was I surprised at the names at Bottlehead. I have to consider an adapter for other tubes, which my group is recommending. "6sn7"


----------



## Keno18

Robert Padgett said:


> Greetings fellow Vali rollers, I am new to tube headphone amps, and I have been listening exclusively to the Vali 2 with stock tube. I have ordered the Telefunken tube that first attracted me to tubes. A brief mention in a note--"Transfer info:  Akai GX636 direct tape head output  > _*Bottlehead tube tape pre w/ a pair of Telefunken tubes circa 1960 *_ > Apogee Mini Me 24/96  > Apogee Mini DAC monitoring and mastering  > FLAC". The one I purchased is new, not 1960s vintage, and boy was I surprised at the names at Bottlehead. I have to consider an adapter for other tubes, which my group is recommending. "6sn7"


Welcome, you'll also find the 12au7 family worthwhile  (yet another adapter). But one thing at a time.


----------



## HellooooThar

Robert Padgett said:


> Greetings fellow Vali rollers, I am new to tube headphone amps, and I have been listening exclusively to the Vali 2 with stock tube. I have ordered the Telefunken tube that first attracted me to tubes. A brief mention in a note--"Transfer info:  Akai GX636 direct tape head output  > _*Bottlehead tube tape pre w/ a pair of Telefunken tubes circa 1960 *_ > Apogee Mini Me 24/96  > Apogee Mini DAC monitoring and mastering  > FLAC". The one I purchased is new, not 1960s vintage, and boy was I surprised at the names at Bottlehead. I have to consider an adapter for other tubes, which my group is recommending. "6sn7"



Yes, the 6SN7 is pretty highly regarded. I haven’t used one personally (didn’t like it because of the size) but it can be run on the Vali. They are known to have very good soundstage, good holographics I believe.


----------



## HellooooThar

Keno18 said:


> Welcome, you'll also find the 12au7 family worthwhile  (yet another adapter). But one thing at a time.



I think this is VERY true. In my opinion buying/researching/scouring the internet for tubes can make listening a bit of a chore. You don't want that - get a few you are interested in, maybe from one family (6DJ8 or 6922 maybe, 6SN7, or go through the Russian options like 6N23P, 6N1P, 6N2P). Listen on them for a while. The 6922 will be some of the most expensive options out there if you are looking for vintage NOS. Good news is you only need one  Still, some 6922, CCa etc. will cost $200 for a single tube. I've seen more than that, but $200 isn't uncommon. Enjoy


----------



## Keno18

Robert Padgett said:


> Greetings fellow Vali rollers, I am new to tube headphone amps, and I have been listening exclusively to the Vali 2 with stock tube. I have ordered the Telefunken tube that first attracted me to tubes. A brief mention in a note--"Transfer info:  Akai GX636 direct tape head output  > _*Bottlehead tube tape pre w/ a pair of Telefunken tubes circa 1960 *_ > Apogee Mini Me 24/96  > Apogee Mini DAC monitoring and mastering  > FLAC". The one I purchased is new, not 1960s vintage, and boy was I surprised at the names at Bottlehead. I have to consider an adapter for other tubes, which my group is recommending. "6sn7"


Your post got me to think about my own long neglected Tung-Sol  new production 6sn7gtb. I pulled the 12au7 clear top and plugged in the 6sn7. Immediately I heard a difference but couldn't put my finger on it.  Part of it was the familiar more relaxed high end. All I know is I listened to it for hours without fatigue. I switched the clear top back in and realized what I was hearing. The dynamics were better with the 6sn7. Both obvious and subtle changes were clearer. I'm going to leave the 6sn7 in for a while.


----------



## Keno18

Monday will be interesting, a Tung-Sol 6sn7gt "mouse ears" will arrive. My first vintage 6sn7.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> Monday will be interesting, a Tung-Sol 6sn7gt "mouse ears" will arrive. My first vintage 6sn7.



Sweet. I got one, pretty nice. Does hum a bit on high gain, but nice.


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> Sweet. I got one, pretty nice. Does hum a bit on high gain, but nice.


Thanks for the preview, something to look forward to.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> Thanks for the preview, something to look forward to.



The only draw back to me is that I need to double stack adapters. Looks kinda fuggly and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the reason I get a hum using it


----------



## HellooooThar

Yeah probably makes one good RF antenna. I got some ECC84-turns out they need adapters. I’ll let everyone know if they are good tho...


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> The only draw back to me is that I need to double stack adapters. Looks kinda fuggly and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the reason I get a hum using it


I double stack a new production Tung-Sol with no hum. Maybe it's just a characteristic of  the tube. Will find out. I think it looks like a van der graph generator from an old Frakenstein movie.


----------



## Keno18

The Tung-Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears arrived today. Quick initial impressions are favorable, velvet high end, excellent dynamics, the word "natural" keeps coming to mind for the mids, imaging is contiguous , that is, everything exists in a precise location without gaps. Depth and width are there in proportion. You get the feeling you're listening to a stage performance.  Very easy to recommend.


----------



## Keno18

Liked the Tung-Sol "mouse ears" so much I bought a backup nos nib tonight.


----------



## Keno18

@Mr Trev: Don't bother about getting a clear top. Just finished listening to Rodzinski's Nutcracker on Westminster. Compared to the mouse ears the clear top sounded positively ordinary.


----------



## Mr Trev (Dec 8, 2018)

Keno18 said:


> @Mr Trev: Don't bother about getting a clear top. Just finished listening to Rodzinski's Nutcracker on Westminster. Compared to the mouse ears the clear top sounded positively ordinary.



I still have to get one. They're like Pokemon, gotta have 'em all!

I do still like using the 12au7s since I can get away with just one adapter. Until I fab a different top (bigger tube opening) for the Vali2 I'm not really too much invested on the 6sn7s. The fact that I'm a bit of a klutz also makes me shy away from the adapter tower - I have smacked that tube many times reaching for things.

BTW, if you like the mouse ear, then you really should try a round plate. They're too rich for my wallet - esp.considering what I paid for my amp - but they're supposed to be the best Tung Sol offering


----------



## Robert Padgett

Mr Trev said:


> I still have to get one. They're like Pokemon, gotta have 'em all!
> 
> I do still like using the 12au7s since I can get away with just one adapter. Until I fab a different top (bigger tube opening) for the Vali2 I'm not really too much invested on the 6sn7s. The fact that I'm a bit of a klutz also makes me shy away from the adapter tower - I have smacked that tube many times reaching for things.
> 
> BTW, if you like the mouse ear, then you really should try a round plate. They're too rich for my wallet - esp.considering what I paid for my amp - but they're supposed to be the best Tung Sol offering




I read somewhere that comparing the Telefunken E88CC to the stock tube that comes with the Vali 2 is nonsense, until you forget you are wearing HPs, and you get up, pulling the Vali and the TF tube crashing off the table---then, that Russian NOS is the sweetest tube in the World.


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> I still have to get one. They're like Pokemon, gotta have 'em all!
> 
> I do still like using the 12au7s since I can get away with just one adapter. Until I fab a different top (bigger tube opening) for the Vali2 I'm not really too much invested on the 6sn7s. The fact that I'm a bit of a klutz also makes me shy away from the adapter tower - I have smacked that tube many times reaching for things.
> 
> BTW, if you like the mouse ear, then you really should try a round plate. They're too rich for my wallet - esp.considering what I paid for my amp - but they're supposed to be the best Tung Sol offering


I think the mouse ears are my limit in budget. Ya gotta stop somewhere as difficult as that is.


----------



## Keno18

Robert Padgett said:


> I read somewhere that comparing the Telefunken E88CC to the stock tube that comes with the Vali 2 is nonsense, until you forget you are wearing HPs, and you get up, pulling the Vali and the TF tube crashing off the table---then, that Russian NOS is the sweetest tube in the World.


That's why I use a long cord.


----------



## Keno18

I may be crazy but I just finished listening to Gieseking's 1953 recording of Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 24 with a 1953 Tung-Sol 6sn7gt. It sounded more sonically balanced and detailed than with another tube/amp combination. There was a bigger difference with this recording than with others I've listened to with the same combination.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Keno18 said:


> I may be crazy but I just finished listening to Gieseking's 1953 recording of Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 24 with a 1953 Tung-Sol 6sn7gt. It sounded more sonically balanced and detailed than with another tube/amp combination. There was a bigger difference with this recording than with others I've listened to with the same combination.


...kinda messes with yer head, doesn’t it? So, a 1950-era Tung-Sol 6sn7gt gave a “balanced & detailed” output for you. I’m still rocking my Vali’s stock tube (a mysterious, NOS bulb, with just a faint serial number printed on it... no other markings). I’ll check the prices for your tube on canuckaudiomart (or whatver it’s called)... thanks, eh.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> I may be crazy but I just finished listening to Gieseking's 1953 recording of Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 24 with a 1953 Tung-Sol 6sn7gt. It sounded more sonically balanced and detailed than with another tube/amp combination. There was a bigger difference with this recording than with others I've listened to with the same combination.



So I guess a new profile picture is in order


----------



## HellooooThar

I mentioned this over on the Lyr thread, but for those who don’t follow, VivaTubes has 20% off all NOS tubes right now on their website. They are great, pretty reasonable prices. I’ve bought from them 4 times and never been disappointed.


----------



## Mr Trev

HellooooThar said:


> I mentioned this over on the Lyr thread, but for those who don’t follow, VivaTubes has 20% off all NOS tubes right now on their website. They are great, pretty reasonable prices. I’ve bought from them 4 times and never been disappointed.



Just noticed that. Is there a coupon code, or are the prices already discounted?


----------



## HellooooThar

Mr Trev said:


> Just noticed that. Is there a coupon code, or are the prices already discounted?



Yep, code “xmas20”. You can only use it once but there’s no max or minimum value.


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> So I guess a new profile picture is in order


Uh, yeah.


----------



## Keno18

OK, I bought one more "mouse ears" tonight. It's my last one, I swear! (He said.)


----------



## timb5881

Keno18 said:


> OK, I bought one more "mouse ears" tonight. It's my last one, I swear! (He said.)


Just remember, addiction can be cured, lol.  I have the same problem on wanting more tubes.


----------



## HellooooThar

Screw you guys and your Valis...I want mine back  Buying pairs sucks. 

I'm on the hunt for the best pair of $50 tubes I can find...because math is a thing, and by the time I find a good pair I really like, I will have been able to buy several pairs of holy grail tubes. I think it's just my addiction...I want more of em.


----------



## bcowen

HellooooThar said:


> Buying pairs sucks.



Then the logical solution is to get a Lyr 3. Just one tube. As an added benefit, you'll get to start all over again with 6SN7's.


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> OK, I bought one more "mouse ears" tonight. It's my last one, I swear! (He said.)



I believe you. It's the last one until you buy the next one.  

Me? I always buy 2. That way I'll have a backup if I like it, and if I don't like it I'll have a pair to sell to those guys that have to have two tubes...


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> I believe you. It's the last one until you buy the next one.
> 
> Me? I always buy 2. That way I'll have a backup if I like it, and if I don't like it I'll have a pair to sell to those guys that have to have two tubes...


It's my 3rd, I like to have backups. I also know what I'm asking for for my 70th, thanks to you.


----------



## HellooooThar

bcowen said:


> Then the logical solution is to get a Lyr 3. Just one tube. As an added benefit, you'll get to start all over again with 6SN7's.



How is the Lyr 3? Did you ever own a 1 or 2 to put it up against? I know 6SN7s are highly regarded and it is neat you can roll them in the 3 sans adapters. Not that I have the money *sigh*


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> It's my 3rd, I like to have backups. I also know what I'm asking for for my 70th, thanks to you.



You know… for the price of 3 mouse ears, you probably could have bought a round plate <insert evil laugh here>


----------



## Joseph021012

Recommendations for first tube for Vali 2 plz.
New stock vs NOS btw?


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> You know… for the price of 3 mouse ears, you probably could have bought a round plate <insert evil laugh here>


Oh, thanks for pointing that out (not).


----------



## Keno18

Joseph021012 said:


> Recommendations for first tube for Vali 2 plz.
> New stock vs NOS btw?


Oh boy. After just going through the angst of tube rolling myself, my first question is what kind of sound do you like?  Are we talking a pronounced high end or an overall lush sound, do you mind having to use socket  adapters?


----------



## Joseph021012

Keno18 said:


> Oh boy. After just going through the angst of tube rolling myself, my first question is what kind of sound do you like?  Are we talking a pronounced high end or an overall lush sound, do you mind having to use socket  adapters?


I like bright sounds for most things but like warm sounds for classical and jazz. I don't mind trying new things but my wallet might.


----------



## Keno18

Joseph021012 said:


> I like bright sounds for most things but like warm sounds for classical and jazz. I don't mind trying new things but my wallet might.


For bright sounds the Electro Harmonix 6922 is a good tube to start with, inexpensive and no adapter needed. The general consensus is the RCA 12au7a "clear top" (partsconnexion.com) with a 12au7 to 6922 adapter (ebay) is one of the best sounding bright tubes. My personal favorite though for all round use would be the Tung-Sol 6sn7gtb new production tube that requires a 6sn7 to 6922 socket adapter and a socket saver all available from tubedepot.com. If you find you like the sound of the 6sn7 then you can start looking at vintage 6sn7s which can cost  $40 and  (way) up. The assembly of the adapters is first install the socket saver. This allows the larger diameter 6sn7 adapter to clear the smaller opening of the Vali's case. Then put the 6sn7 adapter on the tube and insert it into the socket saver. Look at my profile picture to see what it looks like. If it's not clear I can post a better picture in the morning.


----------



## Joseph021012

Keno18 said:


> For bright sounds the Electro Harmonix 6922 is a good tube to start with, inexpensive and no adapter needed. The general consensus is the RCA 12au7a "clear top" (partsconnexion.com) with a 12au7 to 6922 adapter (ebay) is one of the best sounding bright tubes. My personal favorite though for all round use would be the Tung-Sol 6sn7gtb new production tube that requires a 6sn7 to 6922 socket adapter and a socket saver all available from tubedepot.com. If you find you like the sound of the 6sn7 then you can start looking at vintage 6sn7s which can cost  $40 and  (way) up. The assembly of the adapters is first install the socket saver. This allows the larger diameter 6sn7 adapter to clear the smaller opening of the Vali's case. Then put the 6sn7 adapter on the tube and insert it into the socket saver. Look at my profile picture to see what it looks like. If it's not clear I can post a better picture in the morning.


Thank you!


----------



## Joseph021012

Hey all, I was looking at the pin layout for 12au7 and 6922 and they look the same. Do you actually need an adapter or are they basically socket savers?


----------



## Keno18

Joseph021012 said:


> Hey all, I was looking at the pin layout for 12au7 and 6922 and they look the same. Do you actually need an adapter or are they basically socket savers?


You need an adapter because the filaments are wired differently. The 6922 uses pins 4 and 5. The 12au7a uses 4, 5, and 9 so that it can be used in both 6 volt and 12 volt circuits. The way the Vali is wired doesn't take into account pin 9.


----------



## Mr Trev

What he said ^^

Another option to look into for tubes is the 6cg7. Its basically a 9 pin 6sn7 so no adapter required


----------



## Keno18 (Dec 19, 2018)

Mr Trev said:


> What he said ^^
> 
> Another option to look into for tubes is the 6cg7. Its basically a 9 pin 6sn7 so no adapter required


I haven't been able to find a 6cg7 that sounds as good as a 6sn7. Admittedly I've only tried a Zenith and an Electro-harmonix but to me the Tung-Sol 6sn7gtb sounded better than either of them. IMHO.
Edit: Corrected brand.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> I haven't been able to find a 6cg7 that sounds as good as a 6sn7. Admittedly I've only tried a Zenith and an Electro-harmonix but to me the Electro-harmonix 6sn7gtb sounded better than either of them. IMHO.



The few people that I've talked to say the same thing - the 6sn7 is still better. Supposedly the 6cg7 is better than the 12au7s - I've also heard 5814s are better than the 12au7 too.
Some of the 6cg7 recommendations I've gotten are the RCA cleartop, Tung-Sol triple mica - never been able to find one myself, or some Westinghouse types.


----------



## bcowen

HellooooThar said:


> How is the Lyr 3? Did you ever own a 1 or 2 to put it up against? I know 6SN7s are highly regarded and it is neat you can roll them in the 3 sans adapters. Not that I have the money *sigh*



Love the Lyr 3. It's my first Lyr, upgrading to it from the Vali 2 which was my first (ever) headphone amp. The Lyr 3 is quite a bit better as you'd expect, but the Vali 2 needs no excuses -- it's a great sounding amp period, and even greater given it's selling price.


----------



## Keno18 (Dec 19, 2018)

Mr Trev said:


> The few people that I've talked to say the same thing - the 6sn7 is still better. Supposedly the 6cg7 is better than the 12au7s - I've also heard 5814s are better than the 12au7 too.
> Some of the 6cg7 recommendations I've gotten are the RCA cleartop, Tung-Sol triple mica - never been able to find one myself, or some Westinghouse types.


Better than the 12au7 clear tops?


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> Better than the 12au7 clear tops?



That I can't say. The lack of cleartops is a big gaping hole in my life


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Keno18 said:


> For bright sounds the Electro Harmonix 6922 is a good tube to start with, inexpensive and no adapter needed. The general consensus is the RCA 12au7a "clear top" (partsconnexion.com) with a 12au7 to 6922 adapter (ebay) is one of the best sounding bright tubes. My personal favorite though for all round use would be the Tung-Sol 6sn7gtb new production tube that requires a 6sn7 to 6922 socket adapter and a socket saver all available from tubedepot.com. If you find you like the sound of the 6sn7 then you can start looking at vintage 6sn7s which can cost  $40 and  (way) up. The assembly of the adapters is first install the socket saver. This allows the larger diameter 6sn7 adapter to clear the smaller opening of the Vali's case. Then put the 6sn7 adapter on the tube and insert it into the socket saver. Look at my profile picture to see what it looks like. If it's not clear I can post a better picture in the morning.


Please, post in the morning. Thanks, eh.


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> That I can't say. The lack of cleartops is a big gaping hole in my life


I was curious about the 6cg7 clear tops. I have to try to remember where I saw them to see if my budget (read wife) allows it. You'll get your clear tops I'm sure, you still have something to shoot for.


----------



## Keno18

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Please, post in the morning. Thanks, eh.


Close up:

 
Socket saver only:
 
6sn7 with adapter:


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> I was curious about the 6cg7 clear tops. I have to try to remember where I saw them to see if my budget (read wife) allows it. You'll get your clear tops I'm sure, you still have something to shoot for.


I've seen them on Brent Jesse and Viva Tubes. They are pretty cheap. I actually was going to order some tubes from VT last week, but apathy and a lousy exchange rate killed that (plus the shipping was going to cost as much as the tubes themselves)


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> I've seen them on Brent Jesse and Viva Tubes. They are pretty cheap. I actually was going to order some tubes from VT last week, but apathy and a lousy exchange rate killed that (plus the shipping was going to cost as much as the tubes themselves)



I also found them here: https://www.partsconnexion.com/ESTATET-83596-387.html. Maybe after Christmas.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Underthebed said:


> thanks. I've was actually surprised how good the stock tube was. The only markings on the side are 1239...can't find any info online.


Have you ever found out what make the tube with 1239 mark was?


----------



## timb5881

Joseph021012 said:


> Hey all, I was looking at the pin layout for 12au7 and 6922 and they look the same. Do you actually need an adapter or are they basically socket savers?


Yes most defiantly you need an adapter.  The heater can’t be run in series you need parallel to get it Ti at 6.3 volts


----------



## timb5881

Mr Trev said:


> The few people that I've talked to say the same thing - the 6sn7 is still better. Supposedly the 6cg7 is better than the 12au7s - I've also heard 5814s are better than the 12au7 too.
> Some of the 6cg7 recommendations I've gotten are the RCA cleartop, Tung-Sol triple mica - never been able to find one myself, or some Westinghouse types.


5814 tubes are sort of a military version of a 12au7, not an exact sub but very close with no issues.  THere are other military versions of the 12au7 as well and some of those are very nice tubes as well.


----------



## HellooooThar (Dec 20, 2018)

Keno18 said:


> I was curious about the 6cg7 clear tops. I have to try to remember where I saw them to see if my budget (read wife) allows it. You'll get your clear tops I'm sure, you still have something to shoot for.



See I find this interesting. The Amperex long gray plate 6CG7 with the heater wire running across the top I had from the 60s was one of my FAVORITE tubes on on the Vali. Now on the Lyr people say they suck, (6CG7s) because they Lyr pushes too low a plate voltage for them to be linear. The Vali pushes an even lower plate voltage...

An edit though, I think the GE 6BK7 is a decent sounding tube, and really cheap. I subbed my 60's Amperex Holland 6DJ8s out for them in the Lyr for a bit here. Leaner bass, but tight and controlled. Mids more forward, though sometimes a tad more "shouty".


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> See I find this interesting. The Amperex long gray plate 6CG7 with the heater wire running across the top I had from the 60s was one of my FAVORITE tubes on on the Vali. Now on the Lyr people say they suck, (6CG7s) because they Lyr pushes too low a plate voltage for them to be linear. The Vali pushes an even lower plate voltage...
> 
> An edit though, I think the GE 6BK7 is a decent sounding tube, and really cheap. I subbed my 60's Amperex Holland 6DJ8s out for them in the Lyr for a bit here. Leaner bass, but tight and controlled. Mids more forward, though sometimes a tad more "shouty".


I think what you have just demonstrated is that sound quality is in the ear of the beholder. If it sounds good to you that should be good enough. Perhaps the tube's characteristics of the 6cg7 may be more linear than other tubes at the lower voltage but not as linear as it would be at a higher plate voltage. The character it assumes at the voltage you're using it at is pleasing to you. It could very well carry over to the 6sn7 which is supposed to be electrically identical to the 6cg7 and I think the sn7 sounds great.


----------



## HellooooThar

Keno18 said:


> I think what you have just demonstrated is that sound quality is in the ear of the beholder. If it sounds good to you that should be good enough. Perhaps the tube's characteristics of the 6cg7 may be more linear than other tubes at the lower voltage but not as linear as it would be at a higher plate voltage. The character it assumes at the voltage you're using it at is pleasing to you. It could very well carry over to the 6sn7 which is supposed to be electrically identical to the 6cg7 and I think the sn7 sounds great.


Hm yeah. Apparently Jason from Schiit tried the 6CG7 and 6FQ7 in the Lyr and thought they sounded flabby etc. It might be that I am using planars and some of the "fast smooth" tubes people really like just make the already brighter/faster headphones sound...bad, just unrealistic and sharp.


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> Hm yeah. Apparently Jason from Schiit tried the 6CG7 and 6FQ7 in the Lyr and thought they sounded flabby etc. It might be that I am using planars and some of the "fast smooth" tubes people really like just make the already brighter/faster headphones sound...bad, just unrealistic and sharp.


I think you're right. We don't know what headphones Jason was using and I can't comment on your 'phones because I haven't heard them. I suspect the headphones have a great deal to do with how a tube  (and amp, for that matter) sounds to you.


----------



## HellooooThar

Keno18 said:


> I think you're right. We don't know what headphones Jason was using and I can't comment on your 'phones because I haven't heard them. I suspect the headphones have a great deal to do with how a tube  (and amp, for that matter) sounds to you.



Very true and a risk when rolling. You really don't know if a great tube will sound good. 

For what it's worth, if anyone here is using HE400Is, I believe they are quite picky. I'd be prepared to shop around the tube market


----------



## Robert Padgett (Dec 20, 2018)

Joseph021012 said:


> Recommendations for first tube for Vali 2 plz.
> New stock vs NOS btw?



Right out of the chute, I went for the brand new Telefunken E88CC-TK, $48 from TF direct, and I cannot express just how lovely it sounds in HPs. 

I have a 6SN7 adapter and am waiting on a socket saver to try a couple new 6SN7s I have acquired.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Dec 20, 2018)

Joseph021012 said:


> Recommendations for first tube for Vali 2 plz.
> New stock vs NOS btw?


Many people like electro-harmonix 6922EH. I started rolling it today. AKG K702


----------



## Mr Trev

HellooooThar said:


> Very true and a risk when rolling. You really don't know if a great tube will sound good.
> 
> For what it's worth, if anyone here is using HE400Is, I believe they are quite picky. I'd be prepared to shop around the tube market



I have the 400i and I'd hardly call them picky. At the risk of destroying any audiophile credibility I have, I really can't hear any major differences between tubes using the Vali2/400i combo(one of the major reasons I haven't been rushing to buy more tubes). On my lowly Little Bear amp the RCA 6189 blackplate sounds rather uninspired compared to the Yugofunken 12au7 through the 400i. The Vali on the other hand… they pretty much sound the same. This is the big drawback with the Vali2 using negative feedback IMO. I wouldn't say any of the other tubes I own sound in anyway bad with the 400i either.

Isn't the biggest problem trying to run a 6cg7 in the Lyr the heater current? I thought the Lyr couldn't push enough current for those types of tubes


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> I have the 400i and I'd hardly call them picky. At the risk of destroying any audiophile credibility I have, I really can't hear any major differences between tubes using the Vali2/400i combo(one of the major reasons I haven't been rushing to buy more tubes). On my lowly Little Bear amp the RCA 6189 blackplate sounds rather uninspired compared to the Yugofunken 12au7 through the 400i. The Vali on the other hand… they pretty much sound the same. This is the big drawback with the Vali2 using negative feedback IMO. I wouldn't say any of the other tubes I own sound in anyway bad with the 400i either.
> 
> Isn't the biggest problem trying to run a 6cg7 in the Lyr the heater current? I thought the Lyr couldn't push enough current for those types of tubes


Are you using high or low gain? I understand using low gain removes more tubiness than high gain.


----------



## HellooooThar

Mr Trev said:


> I have the 400i and I'd hardly call them picky. At the risk of destroying any audiophile credibility I have, I really can't hear any major differences between tubes using the Vali2/400i combo(one of the major reasons I haven't been rushing to buy more tubes). On my lowly Little Bear amp the RCA 6189 blackplate sounds rather uninspired compared to the Yugofunken 12au7 through the 400i. The Vali on the other hand… they pretty much sound the same. This is the big drawback with the Vali2 using negative feedback IMO. I wouldn't say any of the other tubes I own sound in anyway bad with the 400i either.
> 
> Isn't the biggest problem trying to run a 6cg7 in the Lyr the heater current? I thought the Lyr couldn't push enough current for those types of tubes



Maybe it was just my ears then. I have a lot of sensitivity to peaks around 6Khz and 7Khz. I could definitely tell when a tube upset that, especially with the 400i. Could also hear sound stage a bit, along with how warm the bass was. I would agree though...Vali honestly sounded much more linear than my Lyr 2 and let less shine through. I did really like it though. 

And yes, you can't technically run the 6CG7 in Lyr 2, but you could in Lyr 1. I am contemplating pushing the rated current by ~4% to run an ECC85. Apparently the RFT ECC85 is really good. I can't see ~4% being the straw that breaks the camels back.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> Are you using high or low gain? I understand using low gain removes more tubiness than high gain.



I've heard the same. I mostly try to run high gain, but none of the headphones I own are that hard to drive so the volume rarely gets past 9 o'clock. IEMs on the other hand, low gain is mandatory - too much noise otherwise (surprisingly IEMs sound really good on the Vali2)




HellooooThar said:


> Maybe it was just my ears then. I have a lot of sensitivity to peaks around 6Khz and 7Khz. I could definitely tell when a tube upset that, especially with the 400i. Could also hear sound stage a bit, along with how warm the bass was. I would agree though...Vali honestly sounded much more linear than my Lyr 2 and let less shine through. I did really like it though.
> 
> And yes, you can't technically run the 6CG7 in Lyr 2, but you could in Lyr 1. I am contemplating pushing the rated current by ~4% to run an ECC85. Apparently the RFT ECC85 is really good. I can't see ~4% being the straw that breaks the camels back.



I don't think anything bad can actually happen by running a higher rated tube other than it not working. What actually does happen is anybody's guess. My Little Bear amps are very stuck to 300mA. When I tried plugging a 5670 tube (350mA) into it, the bias was way out of whack - one side I could get 13v the other side was <18v. Needless to say it sounded really bad. But the tube and amp survived…


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> I've heard the same. I mostly try to run high gain, but none of the headphones I own are that hard to drive so the volume rarely gets past 9 o'clock. IEMs on the other hand, low gain is mandatory - too much noise otherwise (surprisingly IEMs sound really good on the Vali2.


I'll give that a shot. Just got to dig out the right cable and adapter.


----------



## Keno18

Just tried the Vali with a pair of KZ ZS6s. Better than I remember them.


----------



## Mr Trev (Dec 20, 2018)

Keno18 said:


> Just tried the Vali with a pair of KZ ZS6s. Better than I remember them.



I find IEMs sound sooo much bigger through the Vali than any of my portable amps. I don't have a SS desktop amp to compare with though - no desire to get one either now.


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> I find IEMs sound sooo much bigger through the Vali than any of my portable amps. I don't have a SS desktop amp to compare with though - no desire to get one either now.


Yes, the Vali has a wider sound stage and is more musical than either the Magni or Nano BL. Curious.


----------



## HellooooThar

Hm. Yea apparently the Lyr 2 uses a DC heater power supply that makes a lot of heat (Lyr2 being even hotter than Lyr1), so the worry is that it might overheat if you exceed the rated heater current spec.


----------



## HellooooThar

Keno18 said:


> Yes, the Vali has a wider sound stage and is more musical than either the Magni or Nano BL. Curious.



I actually never used the Vali with my ZS6, as soon as I got my400I the ZS6 was relegated to mobile use. I should try them on the Lyr. Does the Vali even get quiet enough?


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> I actually never used the Vali with my ZS6, as soon as I got my400I the ZS6 was relegated to mobile use. I should try them on the Lyr. Does the Vali even get quiet enough?


Absolutely, on low gain it's completely silent even at full volume.


----------



## Keno18

My 6sn7gt mouse ears got delivered this morning but appears to have been stolen out of my mailbox. I hope the thief has an amp to put it in. Anyway, I ordered another off ebay just now.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> My 6sn7gt mouse ears got delivered this morning but appears to have been stolen out of my mailbox. I hope the thief has an amp to put it in. Anyway, I ordered another off ebay just now.



Bummer. Read on another thread a few days ago that a fellow had his Liquid Platnium amp stolen from his front door. We really need to start turning the tables on these idiots. Leave bait deliveries for them to steal. Boxes full of dogs**t, rotting meat, ebola…


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> Bummer. Read on another thread a few days ago that a fellow had his Liquid Platnium amp stolen from his front door. We really need to start turning the tables on these idiots. Leave bait deliveries for them to steal. Boxes full of dogs**t, rotting meat, ebola…


That's a good idea. I have plenty of dogs**t. A Yorkie and a Chauaua.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Keno18 said:


> My 6sn7gt mouse ears got delivered this morning but appears to have been stolen out of my mailbox. I hope the thief has an amp to put it in. Anyway, I ordered another off ebay just now.


I have problems with them "attempting to deliver" and saying no one was home. 
I was here the entire time with a loud dog in the yard...found out they had knocked on the door of apt. 5 across the street... 
When I know I have a delivery I sit here and wait until the dog raises cain, and I know some sort of delivery guy is wondering what to do....so I go out and meet the person. 
Sorry for your loss, I had my Magni 3 "delivered" to someone, but not me...now I have asked Schiit to require a signature on all pkgs. 
Right now I am waiting on a tube socket saver so I can use my new 6SN7 with adapter...


----------



## Keno18

Robert Padgett said:


> I have problems with them "attempting to deliver" and saying no one was home.
> I was here the entire time with a loud dog in the yard...found out they had knocked on the door of apt. 5 across the street...
> When I know I have a delivery I sit here and wait until the dog raises cain, and I know some sort of delivery guy is wondering what to do....so I go out and meet the person.
> Sorry for your loss, I had my Magni 3 "delivered" to someone, but not me...now I have asked Schiit to require a signature on all pkgs.
> Right now I am waiting on a tube socket saver so I can use my new 6SN7 with adapter...


I usually wait for the postman if I know the delivery is that day, but the tracker said the 22nd. I was caught by surprise when I saw it had been delivered. The tracking update was late.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Keno18 said:


> I usually wait for the postman if I know the delivery is that day, but the tracker said the 22nd. I was caught by surprise when I saw it had been delivered. The tracking update was late.



I like the idea of dog-poop special delivery boxes, marked up to look real expensive... 

I could keep a supply of Thomas' contributions...


----------



## Keno18

Unbelievable, there are honest people in the world. The tube appeared in my mailbox today! Must have been delivered to the wrong house. Christmas miracle!


----------



## Robert Padgett

Keno18 said:


> Unbelievable, there are honest people in the world. The tube appeared in my mailbox today! Must have been delivered to the wrong house. Christmas miracle!


Merry Christmas...I came home and found mysocket saver from Tube Depot was sitting on my porch, and I have been in 6sn7 Audio Nirvana since...what a wonderful upgrade over the E88CC stock tube, and dare I say, even the Telefunken tube...Looking at a dual 6J5 to E88CC adapter and matched pair of 6J5s--which @Paladin79 said was even better...hard to imagine what a vintage 6sn7 valve would sound like (I bought a new "JJ" as my first 6sn7, and a Sovtek as a cheaper back-up)


----------



## Keno18

Robert Padgett said:


> Merry Christmas...I came home and found mysocket saver from Tube Depot was sitting on my porch, and I have been in 6sn7 Audio Nirvana since...what a wonderful upgrade over the E88CC stock tube, and dare I say, even the Telefunken tube...Looking at a dual 6J5 to E88CC adapter and matched pair of 6J5s--which @Paladin79 said was even better...hard to imagine what a vintage 6sn7 valve would sound like (I bought a new "JJ" as my first 6sn7, and a Sovtek as a cheaper back-up)


And a Merry Christmas to you too. Glad to hear you're enjoying the tube. Yeah, the 6sn7 is a great tube. And yes, there is a difference with a vintage tube. I went from a new production Tung-Sol to a vintage and there's a big difference. Check ebay, you can get a Tung-Sol "mouse ears" for about  $26. I found 2 so far.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> Merry Christmas...I came home and found mysocket saver from Tube Depot was sitting on my porch, and I have been in 6sn7 Audio Nirvana since...what a wonderful upgrade over the E88CC stock tube, and dare I say, even the Telefunken tube...Looking at a dual 6J5 to E88CC adapter and matched pair of 6J5s--which @Paladin79 said was even better...hard to imagine what a vintage 6sn7 valve would sound like (I bought a new "JJ" as my first 6sn7, and a Sovtek as a cheaper back-up)



Another one worth trying: the pre-'57 rib plate Foton 6N8S. These have all but disappeared on Ebay.  Rock'n'rollers dream come true tube. Needs a stupid amount of break-in time (100+ hours) to settle into its groove, but once there it remains one of my favorite 6SN7 tubes to listen to. Even at the higher price they're going for now they're still a relative bargain for this tube type.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-6SN7-...h=item238a3dfc83:g:ZuwAAOSwuZpbyExR:rk:4:pf:0


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> And a Merry Christmas to you too. Glad to hear you're enjoying the tube. Yeah, the 6sn7 is a great tube. And yes, there is a difference with a vintage tube. I went from a new production Tung-Sol to a vintage and there's a big difference. Check ebay, you can get a Tung-Sol "mouse ears" for about  $26. I found 2 so far.



Mouse-ear be good. 

But still looking for a round plate Tung-Sol that doesn't require a bank loan to purchase....


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> Another one worth trying: the pre-'57 rib plate Foton 6N8S. These have all but disappeared on Ebay.  Rock'n'rollers dream come true tube. Needs a stupid amount of break-in time (100+ hours) to settle into its groove, but once there it remains one of my favorite 6SN7 tubes to listen to. Even at the higher price they're going for now they're still a relative bargain for this tube type.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-6SN7-...h=item238a3dfc83:g:ZuwAAOSwuZpbyExR:rk:4:pf:0


Where were you yesterday before I exceeded my monthly limit?


----------



## Robert Padgett

Keno18 said:


> Where were you yesterday before I exceeded my monthly limit?





bcowen said:


> Another one worth trying: the pre-'57 rib plate Foton 6N8S. These have all but disappeared on Ebay.  Rock'n'rollers dream come true tube. Needs a stupid amount of break-in time (100+ hours) to settle into its groove, but once there it remains one of my favorite 6SN7 tubes to listen to. Even at the higher price they're going for now they're still a relative bargain for this tube type.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-6SN7-...h=item238a3dfc83:g:ZuwAAOSwuZpbyExR:rk:4:pf:0


 From Russia with Love, just in time for my Feb 9 birthday...Thanks for the tip!!!


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> Unbelievable, there are honest people in the world. The tube appeared in my mailbox today! Must have been delivered to the wrong house. Christmas miracle!


Good to hear it showed up, maybe there is hope for humanity - but I'd still keep the dog poop boxes warmed up



bcowen said:


> Another one worth trying: the pre-'57 rib plate Foton 6N8S. These have all but disappeared on Ebay.  Rock'n'rollers dream come true tube. Needs a stupid amount of break-in time (100+ hours) to settle into its groove, but once there it remains one of my favorite 6SN7 tubes to listen to. Even at the higher price they're going for now they're still a relative bargain for this tube type.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-6SN7-...h=item238a3dfc83:g:ZuwAAOSwuZpbyExR:rk:4:pf:0



See this is what happens when you talk things up. The next time you find something awesome, talk absolute s--t about it. At least until we all can grab one for ourselves… cheap.
Seriously, I do wish I'd known a bit more about them when I bought my 6N8S. I got a '59(?) vintage, smooth plate. The seller I bought from had all kinds of different years/manf. and I most certainly would have grabbed a few others at the time. Now the seller doesn't even seem to be active on ebay anymore.
I feel your pain on those round plates too. Makes me want to buy a Project Solstice just so I can use the way cheaper 12v versions (honestly, I wouldn't mind getting a Solstice regardless)


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> From Russia with Love, just in time for my Feb 9 birthday...Thanks for the tip!!!



Well Happy (early) Birthday then!  Be sure to give it ample break-in. It'll sound rather screechy and bass deficient initially, then start to sound pretty good, then it'll sound like something broke, then sound even better than before, then go to crap again....the Foton roller coaster. Seems once you hit that 100 hour mark they get off the roller coaster and settle down.  The Melz do it too, they just don't seem to take as long.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Good to hear it showed up, maybe there is hope for humanity - but I'd still keep the dog poop boxes warmed up
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL!  I stashed up early on because you're absolutely right about singing the praises too soon.


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I stashed up early on because you're absolutely right about singing the praises too soon.


Wow!


----------



## rgmffn

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I stashed up early on because you're absolutely right about singing the praises too soon.


 Now you did it!  You introduced this grail to a new amp/thread. Now I'm hoping my dozen or so will last me.


----------



## bcowen

Oops.

It's Christmas...I just wanted to share.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Well Happy (early) Birthday then!  Be sure to give it ample break-in. It'll sound rather screechy and bass deficient initially, then start to sound pretty good, then it'll sound like something broke, then sound even better than before, then go to crap again....the Foton roller coaster. Seems once you hit that 100 hour mark they get off the roller coaster and settle down.  The Melz do it too, they just don't seem to take as long.



I really appreciate your recommendations, I have been thinking about a Schiit Valhalla 2 so this pair and one more Telefunken E88CC and I would be set. 100 hours of a roller coaster ride, that almost sounds like fun. Everything about this hobby has been fun. I have gone from no HPs to Tubes, and Amps, and HPs, and now rolling. All I can say is I am hearing Music differently, and better.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I stashed up early on because you're absolutely right about singing the praises too soon.



Sweet Mother Russia! That's a lot of tubes. Feel free to send one my way, comrade - it is Xmas after all


----------



## Keno18

Robert Padgett said:


> I really appreciate your recommendations, I have been thinking about a Schiit Valhalla 2 so this pair and one more Telefunken E88CC and I would be set. 100 hours of a roller coaster ride, that almost sounds like fun. Everything about this hobby has been fun. I have gone from no HPs to Tubes, and Amps, and HPs, and now rolling. All I can say is I am hearing Music differently, and better.


Sorry about your wallet!


----------



## Robert Padgett

Keno18 said:


> Sorry about your wallet!


Not to worry, IF I get a Valhalla, all I need is another Telefunken. The big IF being $349 not $48...


----------



## Keno18

Robert Padgett said:


> Not to worry, IF I get a Valhalla, all I need is another Telefunken. The big IF being $349 not $48...


Or another 6sn7 adapter and socket saver.


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I stashed up early on because you're absolutely right about singing the praises too soon.


I'm archiving this post to show my wife the next time she says I buy too many of the same tube.


----------



## Keno18

I did a preliminary comparison between the Vali 2 with the Tung-Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears and the Magni 3 stock. I've been meaning to do this for a while but I had a tube buffer on the Magni. I used a cd rip of "Band on the Run".  The difference to me was staggering. The Vali bested the Magni in every aspect. Sound stage, imaging, presence, fidelity, detail retrieval, especially in the lower midrange and sweet detailed highs. Overall body of the sound was "felt" more, had more impact. It wasn't level favoring, in fact the Magni's level was set slightly higher. Oh, listening was done with the Senn HD6XX. I'm spoiled. More listening to follow to see if the above sticks.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Keno18 said:


> I did a preliminary comparison between the Vali 2 with the Tung-Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears and the Magni 3 stock. I've been meaning to do this for a while but I had a tube buffer on the Magni. I used a cd rip of "Band on the Run".  The difference to me was staggering. The Vali bested the Magni in every aspect. Sound stage, imaging, presence, fidelity, detail retrieval, especially in the lower midrange and sweet detailed highs. Overall body of the sound was "felt" more, had more impact. It wasn't level favoring, in fact the Magni's level was set slightly higher. Oh, listening was done with the Senn HD6XX. I'm spoiled. More listening to follow to see if the above sticks.



I too have both the Vali 2 and the Magni 3 and can echo your findings. I have been listening to my "JJ" 6sn7 on my big system through speakers and HPs, same with the Magni 3. I prefer the sound quality of this tube. And I am anxious to hear some 'vintage' tubes, as this "JJ" is new production and will only get better with some gentle burn-in.


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> I'm archiving this post to show my wife the next time she says I buy too many of the same tube.



Any time I get a similar comment from my wife, I just mention her shoes.


----------



## Paladin79

Great collection and very nice quartered oak as well.


----------



## nixternal (Dec 24, 2018)

Setup:  Foobar2k -> Schiit Modi 2 Uber via SPDIF -> Schiit Vali 2 -> AKG K712 Pro

TL;DR - Spent some money at Viva Tubes, not much at all. I didn't like the $2.75 tube, the $3.75 tube is darn near a direct replacement for the stock tube, and I loved the $12.75 tube that is only $2.75 more than the Schiit replacement tubes.

Seeing as tubes are like humans in that they start dying the moment they are born, or turned on, that burn-in stuff doesn't get done here. Sure, I let them warm up and stabilize thermally. All 3 of these tubes have at least 3 hours of playing time, so I don't know what that
equates to in burn-in years 

Before I started playing, I showed them off to my dad as he absolutely hates anything that has to do with tubes. He spent the vast majority of his career in the studio camera business, as an engineer, back in the days & worked on tube equipment through the 50's, 60's, 70's & 80's. First thing he said is, "Russian tubes suck, the Japanese tubes will be the best." Seeing as he worked for the largest Japanese company I kind of figured he would say that, but in the end he wasn't wrong at all.

Of course, take everything with a grain of salt because these are my personal, uneducated, opinions of what I "think" I hear. Honestly, seeing as this is a $150 HYBRID tube amp, I wasn't expecting much of anything at all, but will say I was pleasantly surprised and happy with what I have observed today. I wanted to start inexpensive to see if it was going to be a waste of time & money.

==================================================================================
NOS Gain Tested Voskhod Rocket 6N2P-EV / EB SILVER SHIELD Vacuum Tube (SKU: MUL133-1) - $2.75
==================================================================================
IMAGES
EDIT: See Post 1682


Spoiler: Read more...



Personally, on my setup, this tube sounds awful. I hear a weird vibration, not quite like any distortion I have heard before, in bassier portions of a track. I can really hear it in Home Free's version of Ring of Fire w/ Avi Kaplan. When all of their voices harmonize and ei
ther Tim or Avi are doing their bass thing, it just washes out and that vibration comes forward, to the point that's all can really concentrate on. It made Bucky Pizzarelli's Stompin' at the Savoy sound boring. I could barely pick up whoever was strumming the bass, and I th
ink that is due to a poor sound stage with this tube. It was a $2.75 tube, so I wasn't expecting much. In my opinion, and take it with a grain of salt, but the stock tube sounded much better to me. If you are looking for glow factor, this one isn't it. Doesn't even glow as
much as the stock one.




=======================================================================================
NOS Gain Tested Voskhod Soviet 6N1P-EV / EB [6DJ8] SILVER SHIELD Vacuum Tube (SKU: MUL137-1) - $3.75
=======================================================================================
IMAGES


Spoiler: Read more...



First off, no weird bass vibration sound, except for maybe in N.W.A.'s Straight Out of Compton. Beastie Boys, Low & Slow, sounded really good. Blues Traveler...When John Popper sings you listen, and you almost can't stop listening. This tube makes his voice pure butter. And his harp solo, pretty decent. I've seen him live & had my face melted off from that solo in Run Around. Not really with this tube, but it still sounded really good. I hear everyone strumming along with Bucky in Stompin' at the Savoy, and I even hear someone tapping their f
oot, John Hammond style. Overall, this tube doesn't seem as bright as the stock tube, however they are probably more similar than any of the others to the stock tube, so this definitely makes a great replacement of the stock tube for only $3.75. Listening to Rebecca Pidgeon
, Spanish Harlem, while typing this. Wow, definitely a step above stock. That bass strum sound amazing, and her voice, yeah no tube I have tried thus far made it sound bad in the least bit. Only time I heard anything close to being sibilant was high gain & a cymbal crash. I
f you are looking for glow factor, this one is pretty decent. You can definitely see it glowing. Haven't tried at night, but I'm willing to bet it will cast a nice glow in the dark. Probably explains why you gotta wait a few minutes before removing this tube as it is freaki
n' hot!




=======================================================================================
True NOS Matsushita (Japanese Mullard) Japan 7DJ8/PCC88 Silver Shield Plate Tube (SKU: MUL146-1) - $12.75
=======================================================================================
IMAGES


Spoiler: Read more...



Definitely the LOUDEST of the 2 tubes above & the stock tube. By a lot actually, to the point that there is absolutely no use for flipping on the high gain with my setup. Shoot, volume matching, I considered turning the volume down on this one. Home Free, wow, sounded really good. The bass isn't as prominent with this tube, as I feel the mids & highs stand out front a little more, and there definitely isn't that annoying vocal vibration sound. N.W.A. & the Beastie Boys sound really good. In Slow & Low, the high hats sound really good and that
bass line is quite nice. Blues Traveler, Run Around. All hail the Popper & his harp. Face officially melted! Yeah, I'll get back to finishing this up, I have to hear more Popper! OK, yes I needed that! Bucky and the Savoy, this is the first time I heard the progression of
the 3 coming in at the begging. You hear 1 guitar for a few notes, then you hear the second come in. OK, I have picked that up before with the other's, however this is the first where I easily heard the 3rd guitar come in. The foot tapping, whoever is doing it, is wearing a
bowling shoe I think, that's how clear it sounds. Rebecca & Spanish Harlem sounds glorious. I definitely put this one a step above the Voskhod Soviet above. Listening to Rachmaninoff, Eiji Oue, Minnesota Orchestra perform Non Allegro. When everything comes in at once it hi
ts you, beautifully! I can even hear the one person who doesn't know how to play an instrument banging around on a triangle like it is dinner time! Hands down, my favorite thus far, and if you need to replace your current tube or want to start rolling, I personally would ad
d this one to the list of tubes. I like it a lot. If you are looking for the glow factor, this one is not it. I have to get up close & squint, actually have to look down on it a little to see the hotness.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Great collection and very nice quartered oak as well.



Thanks!  That's my great grandfathers roll-top desk that's been passed down through the generations. Not sure when he bought it, but it dates back at least into the late 1800's. They truly don't build furniture like that anymore.


----------



## FLTWS

Sub'd


----------



## ScubaMan2017

nixternal said:


> Setup:  Foobar2k -> Schiit Modi 2 Uber via SPDIF -> Schiit Vali 2 -> AKG K712 Pro
> .....{snip}....Before I started playing, I showed them off to my dad as he absolutely hates anything that has to do with tubes. He spent the vast majority of his career in the studio camera business, as an engineer, back in the days & worked on tube equipment through the 50's, 60's, 70's & 80's. First thing he said is, "Russian tubes suck, the Japanese tubes will be the best." Seeing as he worked for the largest Japanese company I kind of figured he would say that, but in the end he wasn't wrong at all......{snip}....



Welcome to the site, @nixternal . Your old man reminds me of my dad. I grew up in the 80s and ANYTHING Soviet was verbotin in my household (kind of makes sense as my dad was a refugee from Estonia [and they were fleeing both the Nazis & the Red-Army]). Heh, I grew up taking apart old radios that my dad somehow acquired in the 1970s. Sheesh... kind of wish I held onto those tubes. Meh, no matter.
Japanese tubes... I'll check them out... Thanks for the post, eh.


----------



## nixternal (Dec 24, 2018)

OK, I think I found a good use for that $2.75 Voskhod Rocket. Les Claypool! Every time Les bangs a string, you freakin' feel it. I relistened to the Home Free "Ring of Fire" on Tidal, and that crazy vibration was still there, just a bit more tamed, which is odd seeing as it wasn't that Master quality lossy format they use, it was the Hi-Fi version, which I thought was CD quality. Yeah, this tubes puts some distortion into the string slaps, I hear it when Les really gets on the strings, like in My Name is Mud. Hrmm, kind of want to try this tube in a sub amp/preamp now.

EDIT: If metal is your thing, you just might enjoy this tube honestly. Been listening to some this morning, and it kind of adds a nice distortion. Seriously head banging right now.

EDIT: Whoa, whoa whoa, hold the presses! This tube, for $2.75, sounds great through speakers, just not headphones. It is punchy. It is actually making my modded Realistic Minimus 7's sound amazing. Wowsers!


----------



## Condocondor

Need tube recommendations for the Vali2 using the Meze99 headphones.  Can someone help?  I'm buying a Vali2 for a friend that uses those cans and want a better-than-stock-tube.  Don't want to spend more than $50.


----------



## bcowen

nixternal said:


> OK, I think I found a good use for that $2.75 Voskhod Rocket. Les Claypool! Every time Les bangs a string, you freakin' feel it. I relistened to the Home Free "Ring of Fire" on Tidal, and that crazy vibration was still there, just a bit more tamed, which is odd seeing as it wasn't that Master quality lossy format they use, it was the Hi-Fi version, which I thought was CD quality. Yeah, this tubes puts some distortion into the string slaps, I hear it when Les really gets on the strings, like in My Name is Mud. Hrmm, kind of want to try this tube in a sub amp/preamp now.
> 
> EDIT: If metal is your thing, you just might enjoy this tube honestly. Been listening to some this morning, and it kind of adds a nice distortion. Seriously head banging right now.
> 
> EDIT: Whoa, whoa whoa, hold the presses! This tube, for $2.75, sounds great through speakers, just not headphones. It is punchy. It is actually making my modded Realistic Minimus 7's sound amazing. Wowsers!



How much play time do you have on the Voskhod? Every new (unused) tube improves with break-in, and IME Russian tubes not only improve the most but take the longest to fully settle in. I don't have any experience with the Voskhod's, but Fotons need over 100 hours and Melz need 75+.  If you don't have at least 50 hours on it at this point, there will likely be some even nicer sounds in store.


----------



## Keno18

Condocondor said:


> Need tube recommendations for the Vali2 using the Meze99 headphones.  Can someone help?  I'm buying a Vali2 for a friend that uses those cans and want a better-than-stock-tube.  Don't want to spend more than $50.


Someone asked a similar question earlier. Look at my post #1613.


----------



## nixternal

bcowen said:


> How much play time do you have on the Voskhod? Every new (unused) tube improves with break-in, and IME Russian tubes not only improve the most but take the longest to fully settle in. I don't have any experience with the Voskhod's, but Fotons need over 100 hours and Melz need 75+.  If you don't have at least 50 hours on it at this point, there will likely be some even nicer sounds in store.


They have quite a few hours on them now, not exactly sure how many hours honestly. These Voskhod Rockets produce distortion even at lower volumes. No doubt these tubes sound better with speakers than they do with headphones, especially the AKG K712's. Not as unforgiving as a speaker. When the levels are lower in a track, the tubes are really nice & warm. It is at the higher levels in a track where you can hear that distortion. When I run the Vali 2 as a preamp out to my Emotiva A-100 to some Minimus 7's on my desktop, they actually sound quite nice. Granted my Minimus 7's are fully modded with a proper crossover and are fairly warm to begin with. But with headphones, the tubes are almost impossible to listen to. Right now, listening to "Carpentars With The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra" on Tidal (master), gain on low, volume at 12 o'clock or half way, and when Karen hits a big note, it becomes annoying.

The Voskhod Soviets sound amazing out of the box after they settle thermally. Same goes with the Japanese Mullard's. I'll try to use the Rockets all day to see if I get anything other than a placebo effect out of them.


----------



## timb5881

Condocondor said:


> Need tube recommendations for the Vali2 using the Meze99 headphones.  Can someone help?  I'm buying a Vali2 for a friend that uses those cans and want a better-than-stock-tube.  Don't want to spend more than $50.


In new tubes, a JJ or Electro Harmonix both are good and both are under $15 a tube.  The Genalex is close to the limit at about $45.  If you get him a 12AX7 to 6922 adapter, $6 or so, you can get many different 12AU7 NOS that can be very good.    Another option is a 6SN7 to 6922 adapter and again many NOS tubes are available in that price range.  Just remember a 12AU7 can not be plugged in directly, the voltage is 12 volts but the converter puts the heater in parallel which reduces the heater voltage to 6.3 volts.  The other specs on 12AU7 and 6SN7 tubes are the same or very close to a 6922 tube.


----------



## bcowen

nixternal said:


> They have quite a few hours on them now, not exactly sure how many hours honestly. These Voskhod Rockets produce distortion even at lower volumes. No doubt these tubes sound better with speakers than they do with headphones, especially the AKG K712's. Not as unforgiving as a speaker. When the levels are lower in a track, the tubes are really nice & warm. It is at the higher levels in a track where you can hear that distortion. When I run the Vali 2 as a preamp out to my Emotiva A-100 to some Minimus 7's on my desktop, they actually sound quite nice. Granted my Minimus 7's are fully modded with a proper crossover and are fairly warm to begin with. But with headphones, the tubes are almost impossible to listen to. Right now, listening to "Carpentars With The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra" on Tidal (master), gain on low, volume at 12 o'clock or half way, and when Karen hits a big note, it becomes annoying.
> 
> The Voskhod Soviets sound amazing out of the box after they settle thermally. Same goes with the Japanese Mullard's. I'll try to use the Rockets all day to see if I get anything other than a placebo effect out of them.



What you're describing is what full break-in will almost always help with: the eardrum slice'n'dice that makes you cringe on loud transients and high treble. Perhaps the Rocket is just a dog of a tube and it is what it is. But I'd encourage you to give it 100 hours and see if it changes. Let it play while you're away. No need to listen (painfully) through the process.


----------



## nixternal

bcowen said:


> What you're describing is what full break-in will almost always help with: the eardrum slice'n'dice that makes you cringe on loud transients and high treble. Perhaps the Rocket is just a dog of a tube and it is what it is. But I'd encourage you to give it 100 hours and see if it changes. Let it play while you're away. No need to listen (painfully) through the process.


Hrmm, this makes me think I should either get another Vali just to use for burning in or build something to do just that  Because...I know for a darn fact now, these 3 tubes were just a start! Working hard to stay off of Viva Tubes for at least a few more days


----------



## nixternal

OK, this Rocket, I don't think is going to get better with age. About 7 to 8 hours running it today, and it has gotten worse. At low volumes it makes it sound like a blown driver on my headphones. I'm thinking it is just a bunk tube, which kind of stinks because w/o that distortion it really is a fuller, warmer, detailed tube. Plus, as a military guy, I kind of like the idea of running a tube that was meant for a rocket to destroy me  Oh, I'm sick! I will pick up another on a future order to see if that is the case. Gonna run the Voskhod Soviet's now for a day or 2 as it was really nice out of the box.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

nixternal said:


> OK, this Rocket, I don't think is going to get better with age. About 7 to 8 hours running it today, and it has gotten worse. At low volumes it makes it sound like a blown driver on my headphones. I'm thinking it is just a bunk tube, which kind of stinks because w/o that distortion it really is a fuller, warmer, detailed tube. Plus, as a military guy, I kind of like the idea of running a tube that was meant for a rocket to destroy me  Oh, I'm sick! I will pick up another on a future order to see if that is the case. Gonna run the Voskhod Soviet's now for a day or 2 as it was really nice out of the box.


Sick? Nah... I'm just happy you helped keeping the cold war... well... cold. Thank you for your service, eh.


----------



## nixternal

Ahh, I was post cold war by a couple of years, but thanks! Yeah, that Rocket is just a bad rocket. Switched it back in & it is even worse. I also noticed a hint of milkiness color in getter area. The bottom portion of the getter is no longer a gray or silver, but more of dull white/gray opaque, and I'm almost able to see all the way through the entire getter area, which I always thought you shouldn't be able to. Oh well, I shall try another because I read a lot of people like the rockets.


----------



## Mr Trev

nixternal said:


> Ahh, I was post cold war by a couple of years, but thanks! Yeah, that Rocket is just a bad rocket. Switched it back in & it is even worse. I also noticed a hint of milkiness color in getter area. The bottom portion of the getter is no longer a gray or silver, but more of dull white/gray opaque, and I'm almost able to see all the way through the entire getter area, which I always thought you shouldn't be able to. Oh well, I shall try another because I read a lot of people like the rockets.



I got a Voskhod 6N23 and it definitely doesn't sound distorted by any means. Probably the brightest sounding (and visually - must be a Soviet thing, my Reflektor 6N3 can light the room too) tube I currently own. Great for ear-bleeding metal.


----------



## KoshNaranek

nixternal said:


> Ahh, I was post cold war by a couple of years, but thanks! Yeah, that Rocket is just a bad rocket. Switched it back in & it is even worse. I also noticed a hint of milkiness color in getter area. The bottom portion of the getter is no longer a gray or silver, but more of dull white/gray opaque, and I'm almost able to see all the way through the entire getter area, which I always thought you shouldn't be able to. Oh well, I shall try another because I read a lot of people like the rockets.


What you describe is a tube losing vacuum integrity. I don't know if preamp tubes can arc, but I wouldn't risk it. Get rid of it.


----------



## Mr Trev

@bcowen 
Hey my good man, what's the best of the best of Soviet era tubes? Haven't been following that trail too much (you wacky guys on the Lyr threads seem to have trudged well down that rabbit-hole), but from what I've gathered the Foton triple mica are the best 6n3p (what vintage are those?) and as far as 6n8s, the Foton ribbed plates, right.
How about 6n1p? or 6n2p? Any others I've forgotten?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> @bcowen
> Hey my good man, what's the best of the best of Soviet era tubes? Haven't been following that trail too much (you wacky guys on the Lyr threads seem to have trudged well down that rabbit-hole), but from what I've gathered the Foton triple mica are the best 6n3p (what vintage are those?) and as far as 6n8s, the Foton ribbed plates, right.
> How about 6n1p? or 6n2p? Any others I've forgotten?



Howdy Mr. Trev!  I don't have a lot of experience with the 6nXp's. I did just get a couple pairs of triple-mica 6N3P's, but haven't had a chance to give them a whirl yet. Not totally sure of vintage -- thinking they are early 60's. I have some Reflektor 6N1P's that go in the phono stage of my Alana preamp. Sound-wise they're OK but nothing to write home about, but what you CAN write to Mom about is how totally dead silent they are. Quite nice for a phono application. The experts on the 9-pin Russkies are all over there in the Lyr Tube Rollers thread (not the Lyr 3, just the unnumbered Lyr thread). I think the discussion on these started around page 37,422 or so.  

As far as the 6N8S / 6H8C / 6SN7 variety, the ribbed plate Fotons are the best of the cheap tubes. 1955 and earlier are a sure thing for ribs, but not sure when the transition to the smooth plates happened. 58's and later have smooth plates, but I can't attest to '56's or 57's 'cause I don't have any. It's not a dramatic difference (to my ears) with any of the '50's production, smooth or ribbed. I think the ribs sound better, but could easily be happy with the smoothies. Once you get to 1960 though the difference becomes pretty substantial. If you want a Foton, stick with 50's only, and get the ribs if you can.  A little pricier but also quite good are the 50's Melz. There are a couple main versions of these, one without holes in the plates and one with. The non-hole plates are affordable and sound very good -- same playing field as the Fotons. The hole-plate versions (if they are genuine) and have 1578 printed on the bottle are supposed to be in holy grail territory...but have holy grail prices too. I've seen some on Ebay for real cheap (like $40) but my BS-ometer kicked in as most genuine ones are going to fetch at least $100/tube and usually much more. It's a sad state of affairs when people start counterfeiting _Russian_ tubes!


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Howdy Mr. Trev!  I don't have a lot of experience with the 6nXp's. I did just get a couple pairs of triple-mica 6N3P's, but haven't had a chance to give them a whirl yet. Not totally sure of vintage -- thinking they are early 60's. I have some Reflektor 6N1P's that go in the phono stage of my Alana preamp. Sound-wise they're OK but nothing to write home about, but what you CAN write to Mom about is how totally dead silent they are. Quite nice for a phono application. The experts on the 9-pin Russkies are all over there in the Lyr Tube Rollers thread (not the Lyr 3, just the unnumbered Lyr thread). I think the discussion on these started around page 37,422 or so.
> 
> As far as the 6N8S / 6H8C / 6SN7 variety, the ribbed plate Fotons are the best of the cheap tubes. 1955 and earlier are a sure thing for ribs, but not sure when the transition to the smooth plates happened. 58's and later have smooth plates, but I can't attest to '56's or 57's 'cause I don't have any. It's not a dramatic difference (to my ears) with any of the '50's production, smooth or ribbed. I think the ribs sound better, but could easily be happy with the smoothies. Once you get to 1960 though the difference becomes pretty substantial. If you want a Foton, stick with 50's only, and get the ribs if you can.  A little pricier but also quite good are the 50's Melz. There are a couple main versions of these, one without holes in the plates and one with. The non-hole plates are affordable and sound very good -- same playing field as the Fotons. The hole-plate versions (if they are genuine) and have 1578 printed on the bottle are supposed to be in holy grail territory...but have holy grail prices too. I've seen some on Ebay for real cheap (like $40) but my BS-ometer kicked in as most genuine ones are going to fetch at least $100/tube and usually much more. It's a sad state of affairs when people start counterfeiting _Russian_ tubes!



Hmmm. I thought I read a bunch of your posts about the 6n3p et al. My bad.

I did find a seller with some of those ribbed plate 6n8s you've been hoarding (Actually, I think this might be the same person I bought my smooth plate from - the store page looks suspiciously similar to the old now defunct one - hey, I just noticed the word "defunct" has some wonderfully atrocious misspelling possibilities).. I figured I might as well grab some others if I place an order. Just want to confirm what's the best since I didn't find out about the 3 mica/ribbed plate thing until after I made my last order. I did some reading back and it really doesn't sound like there is too much love for the 6n1p. I thought about one of those SWGP 6N23p, but it seems like popular option says they're over rated too. Maybe a 6N5p - the Red's version of a 6CG7? Haven't read much about those… And where the heck are the Soviet version of the round plates?
Anyways, they have all flavours of 6n types - but I didn't see any triple mica 6n3p. Even some of those Melz 1578, but like you I'm not paying +$100 for a tube. It probably is a good idea to be skeptical about the cheaper ones. I don't know if they'd actually be counterfeits, but I'd have my doubts you'd actually get one of those hole plates - probably just the standard version (they typically go for ~$40 IIRC)


----------



## Robert Padgett

Mr Trev said:


> Hmmm. I thought I read a bunch of your posts about the 6n3p et al. My bad.
> 
> I did find a seller with some of those ribbed plate 6n8s you've been hoarding (Actually, I think this might be the same person I bought my smooth plate from - the store page looks suspiciously similar to the old now defunct one - hey, I just noticed the word "defunct" has some wonderfully atrocious misspelling possibilities).. I figured I might as well grab some others if I place an order. Just want to confirm what's the best since I didn't find out about the 3 mica/ribbed plate thing until after I made my last order. I did some reading back and it really doesn't sound like there is too much love for the 6n1p. I thought about one of those SWGP 6N23p, but it seems like popular option says they're over rated too. Maybe a 6N5p - the Red's version of a 6CG7? Haven't read much about those… And where the heck are the Soviet version of the round plates?
> Anyways, they have all flavours of 6n types - but I didn't see any triple mica 6n3p. Even some of those Melz 1578, but like you I'm not paying +$100 for a tube. It probably is a good idea to be skeptical about the cheaper ones. I don't know if they'd actually be counterfeits, but I'd have my doubts you'd actually get one of those hole plates - probably just the standard version (they typically go for ~$40 IIRC)




Greetings, and a fellow newbie to Russkie tubes. I have a pair of matched Fotons(1952-ribbed) from an e-bay dealer whom my friends have dealt with and are a respected vendor. (www.ebay.com/usr/el-rayder). I became interested in the 6n1p "stock" NOS soviet-tube supplied with the Vali 2. I had always wanted a Telefunken, but in my newbie phase, didn't realize that all the "new" Telefunken were made at the JJ (Tesla) plant in Slovakia, and all the Telefunkens I had read about were the vintage (the 1960s) marked Western Germany. So, knowing that my Telefunken was a green as grass, I pulled out the stock tube, trusting that Jason had selected a good vendor in Russian NOS, and I have very pleasantly surprised that this tube sounds much better than expected. The 6n1p has a higher plate voltage than an e88cc, and the thing glows brightly--which I like to look at. I have a new production JJ 6sn7. You WILL NEED a socket saver when you order the 6sn7-6299 adapter, as it is larger than the hole in the Vali 2. I purchased a Soviet-era Sovtek 6SN7 and it is not a bad sounding tube--a bit on the brash side, which like all Russkies, may just need time to settle down. I have heard that 100 hours minimum of Soviet-era NOS is normal, and they can be very sweet sounding, they are built like Soviet tanks and will have a long reliable life.  Hope this helps you. Welcome aboard, and like they say in New Orleans, "Let the Good Tubes Roll!"


----------



## Mr Trev

Robert Padgett said:


> Greetings, and a fellow newbie to Russkie tubes. I have a pair of matched Fotons(1952-ribbed) from an e-bay dealer whom my friends have dealt with and are a respected vendor. (www.ebay.com/usr/el-rayder). I became interested in the 6n1p "stock" NOS soviet-tube supplied with the Vali 2. I had always wanted a Telefunken, but in my newbie phase, didn't realize that all the "new" Telefunken were made at the JJ (Tesla) plant in Slovakia, and all the Telefunkens I had read about were the vintage (the 1960s) marked Western Germany. So, knowing that my Telefunken was a green as grass, I pulled out the stock tube, trusting that Jason had selected a good vendor in Russian NOS, and I have very pleasantly surprised that this tube sounds much better than expected. The 6n1p has a higher plate voltage than an e88cc, and the thing glows brightly--which I like to look at. I have a new production JJ 6sn7. You WILL NEED a socket saver when you order the 6sn7-6299 adapter, as it is larger than the hole in the Vali 2. I purchased a Soviet-era Sovtek 6SN7 and it is not a bad sounding tube--a bit on the brash side, which like all Russkies, may just need time to settle down. I have heard that 100 hours minimum of Soviet-era NOS is normal, and they can be very sweet sounding, they are built like Soviet tanks and will have a long reliable life.  Hope this helps you. Welcome aboard, and like they say in New Orleans, "Let the Good Tubes Roll!"



Been using octal tubes (a rebranded mouse ear 6sn7 and Foton smoothplate 6N8S) for ~ 1 year now, so I'm set for adapters. I went the route of a 6sn7 to 12au7 adapter so that I could use a 12au7 adapter instead of a socket saver - kill 2 birds with 1 stone. I bought these tubes before folks really started digging into the all the various 6nxx types and didn't really know what the best of them are. I also have a 70s Reflektor 6n3p-something (e? maybe i, don't remember) and have had a 80s Vokhshod 6n23 for a while. I find the Soviet tubes are probably the brightest of my tubes and work best with metal genres. I've also heard about the long burn-in time, but have no idea what sort of hours are on any of my tubes.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Mr Trev said:


> @bcowen
> Hey my good man, what's the best of the best of Soviet era tubes? Haven't been following that trail too much (you wacky guys on the Lyr threads seem to have trudged well down that rabbit-hole), but from what I've gathered the Foton triple mica are the best 6n3p (what vintage are those?) and as far as 6n8s, the Foton ribbed plates, right.
> How about 6n1p? or 6n2p? Any others I've forgotten?


+1 on this request...  So I can approach some Canadian vendors and get some prices... Thanks, eh.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Hmmm. I thought I read a bunch of your posts about the 6n3p et al. My bad.
> 
> I did find a seller with some of those ribbed plate 6n8s you've been hoarding (Actually, I think this might be the same person I bought my smooth plate from - the store page looks suspiciously similar to the old now defunct one - hey, I just noticed the word "defunct" has some wonderfully atrocious misspelling possibilities).. I figured I might as well grab some others if I place an order. Just want to confirm what's the best since I didn't find out about the 3 mica/ribbed plate thing until after I made my last order. I did some reading back and it really doesn't sound like there is too much love for the 6n1p. I thought about one of those SWGP 6N23p, but it seems like popular option says they're over rated too. Maybe a 6N5p - the Red's version of a 6CG7? Haven't read much about those… And where the heck are the Soviet version of the round plates?
> Anyways, they have all flavours of 6n types - but I didn't see any triple mica 6n3p. Even some of those Melz 1578, but like you I'm not paying +$100 for a tube. It probably is a good idea to be skeptical about the cheaper ones. I don't know if they'd actually be counterfeits, but I'd have my doubts you'd actually get one of those hole plates - probably just the standard version (they typically go for ~$40 IIRC)



I spent some time a while back trying to figure out what the difference was between the hole plates going for cheap and those more 'normally' priced. Not that I've even scratched the surface of the history on these, but there are (at least) two versions currently on Ebay. There's the true 1578 (with 1578 printed on the bottle) that have dull gray hole-y plates, and then a  version with much shinier black hole-y plates but no 1578 on the bottle.  Seems most if not all of the eastern-bloc sellers are tossing 1578 into the description whether the tube is a real 1578 or not. 

Real 1578's below priced at $220/pair, which seems to be a good going price for these (but not too good to be true).  Still a bit rich for my wallet that has become accustomed to $5 7N7's.


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## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> The 6n1p has a higher plate voltage than an e88cc, and the thing glows brightly--which I like to look at.



While the 6N1P was designed to operate at a higher plate voltage than a 6922-family tube, the plate voltage applied by the Vali2 will be the same regardless of the tube's design parameters. If the 6N1P is glowing more brightly, it's likely because there is more of the filament exposed (at the top of the plates) than a similar tube you've tried.


----------



## EzequielFriscia

Hello there ! Trying to decide which tubes to get, read a lot of experience that other users had. I’m looking for tubes (no adapters) which could give me a dark or warm sound with a good sense of soundstage and depth. I’d be using the Vali with some HD650.


----------



## Mephit

I recently picked up a Vali 2 from another forum member and have been reading through this thread for ideas on tubes to try with the amp.  The main headphone I'm using with the Val 2 is the DT 990s.  I also have a pair of Grado SR60e as well.

The amp came with two tubes and I picked up a third to try as well.  This is my experience with the tubes I have so far:

GE GBQ7 (stock tube) - Warm, but lacking in depth and clarity.  Highs seem to be missing.  Decent tube, but will not see much time in the amp
Sylvania JAN 5670 - Warm, with better bass and soundstage than the stock GE.  Highs are better than the GE, but still pretty suppressed. Has a great looking glow
JJ E88CC Gold pins - Best sound stage and clarity of the three.  Not as warm as the other two, but warm enough to impart some tube flavor to the sound
The JJ E88CC is my favorite of the 3.  I would like to find something a little warmer than the JJ that keeps clarity that is present.  The highs can be a little fatiguing using the JJ with the DT 990s, so I will switch to the 5670 if my ears need a little rest.

I welcome recommendations on what to try next.  I'm not willing yet to spend too much on a tube,  I'd say 35 - 40 would be my top price range


----------



## EzequielFriscia

Mephit said:


> I recently picked up a Vali 2 from another forum member and have been reading through this thread for ideas on tubes to try with the amp.  The main headphone I'm using with the Val 2 is the DT 990s.  I also have a pair of Grado SR60e as well.
> 
> The amp came with two tubes and I picked up a third to try as well.  This is my experience with the tubes I have so far:
> 
> ...



Thanks tons! Seems like the JJ is one to have then!
Looking for more options to add!


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## Robert Padgett (Jan 18, 2019)

Mephit said:


> I recently picked up a Vali 2 from another forum member and have been reading through this thread for ideas on tubes to try with the amp.  The main headphone I'm using with the Val 2 is the DT 990s.  I also have a pair of Grado SR60e as well.
> 
> The amp came with two tubes and I picked up a third to try as well.  This is my experience with the tubes I have so far:
> 
> ...




I am also new to tubes on the Vali 2. I noted that you said no adapters--which will save you $12 but really limits your choices.

You also need a socket saver if you plan on switching tubes often, plus a 6SN7 adapter will not fit into the Vali hole. Vintage 6SN7 tubes are plentiful, at very good prices and will outperform (to MY ears) any 6299-e88cc class tube. (I have a stock soviet-era 6n1P, and a Telefunken, new production--but the big bottle "JJ" 6SN7 that I bought for $16 blows them away.

The Russian tube is microphonic and picks up my heart pacemaker telemetry, (70bpm-clicking). One other suggestion--the Telefunken you read about were German production, JJ-in Slovakia produce the new ones. It is a good tube, but not worth $48 for a name. Older Telefunken cost even more but at least they have a reputation as very good tubes. 

I did headphone testing, and my opinion of the  "JJ" 6SN7 is by far the best value, and that is after a week worth of time, "breaking-in"...


----------



## Mephit

Robert Padgett said:


> I am also new to tubes on the Vali 2. I noted that you said no adapters--which will save you $12 but really limits your choices.
> May I humbly suggest that you get a 6SN7 to the e88cc adapter from Tubedepot ( If you order one from China, it will take three weeks to get to you, TD will deliver in three days, and even with shipping, you will still be better off price/time wise.)
> You also need a socket saver if you plan on switching tubes often, plus a 6SN7 adapter will not fit into the Vali hole. Vintage 6SN7 tubes are plentiful, at very good prices and will outperform (to MY ears) any 6299-e88cc class tube. (I have a stock soviet-era 6n1P, and a Telefunken, new production--but the big bottle "JJ" 6SN7 that I bought for $16 blows them away. The Russian tube is microphonic and picks up my heart pacemaker telemetry, (70bpm-clicking). One other suggestion--the Telefunken you read about were German production, JJ-in Slovakia produce the new ones. It is a good tube, but not worth $48 for a name. Older Telefunken cost even more but at least they have a reputation as very good tubes. I did headphone testing, and my opinion of the  "JJ" 6SN7 is by far the best value, and that is after a week worth of time, "breaking-in"...



Thanks for the advice.  I will look at getting a 6SN7 adapter.  Unfortunately Tubedepot is out of stock so I may need to order one off of ebay.  I do have a 5670 to 6922 adapter that came with the amp so I can explore those sets of tubes as well.

I'll put the JJ 6SN7 on my list of tubes to try once I get an adapter.


----------



## Keno18

@Mephit +1 on the advice @Robert Padgett gave you. I'd like to add that the Tung-Sol new production 6sn7gt, also at tubedepot.com, is another good choice. Additionally the vintage Tung-Sol 6sn7gt "mouse ears" can be had for anywhere from  $22 to $40 on ebay. This is currently my favorite.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

EzequielFriscia said:


> Thanks tons! Seems like the JJ is one to have then!
> Looking for more options to add!





Mephit said:


> Thanks for the advice.  I will look at getting a 6SN7 adapter.  Unfortunately Tubedepot is out of stock so I may need to order one off of ebay.  I do have a 5670 to 6922 adapter that came with the amp so I can explore those sets of tubes as well.
> 
> I'll put the JJ 6SN7 on my list of tubes to try once I get an adapter.





Keno18 said:


> @Mephit +1 on the advice @Robert Padgett gave you. I'd like to add that the Tung-Sol new production 6sn7gt, also at tubedepot.com, is another good choice. Additionally the vintage Tung-Sol 6sn7gt "mouse ears" can be had for anywhere from  $22 to $40 on ebay. This is currently my favorite.



_I'm consolidating this good advice so that I can retrieve it later this year (when I have more disposable income)_. *Thanks, eh*.


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## HellooooThar (Jan 13, 2019)

ScubaMan2017 said:


> +1 on this request...  So I can approach some Canadian vendors and get some prices... Thanks, eh.



Here is my understanding from what guys over on the Lyr thread have said.

-- 6N3P from the 50's (Foton triple mica) are the holy grail. Apparently, the 2x mica will suffice in a pinch, but are a little less good.

-- The 6N2P is a decent tube for the price (needs no adapter too). No one ever really broke down the best of the best 6N2P, but safe to say the older the better. 50s if ya can. I didn't love them in the Lyr, I thought their sound stage came off as really disjointed. Sounded decent in the Music Hall 25.3 DAC I have though, but I felt like something was MISSING all the time. Decent response across the spectrum, but just felt a little lifeless. Really cheap though.

-- 6N1P is regarded as being ehh by most I have talked to. Decent, but I have heard some say it is kind of gritty. I would agree. I had one in my Vali for a while. I thought I liked it, but compared to the 6N2Ps I have (and they are bad ones apparently, 1976 triple mica Voshkod) I would rate it lower. 6N2P lacks a lot still but is definitely smoother.

Honestly, IMHO recently I have started to like the National branded Matsu "mullard" (Japanses) 7DJ8/PCC88. I really hated it at first honestly, but now I like it a lot at least in the Lyr with the HE 400I. Isn't warm like a Mullard, but has a really clean presentation with basically no noise. A little warmth in the midrange feels kind of fluid. A good buy if you can find one, great for a sub $30 tube. Upscale has them for a little more, that's where mine are from. I dropped my 58 bugle boys for them.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

ScubaMan2017 said:


> _I'm consolidating this good advice so that I can retrieve it later this year (when I have more disposable income)_. *Thanks, eh*.





HellooooThar said:


> Here is my understanding from what guys over on the Lyr thread have said.
> 
> -- 6N3P from the 50's (Foton triple mica) are the holy grail. Apparently, the 2x mica will suffice in a pinch, but are a little less good.
> 
> ...



Consolidating my consolidation. Good intel. Thanks.


----------



## HellooooThar

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Consolidating my consolidation. Good intel. Thanks.



Then you will be happy to have to consolidate the consolidation...again...

While I never personally listened to a 6N23P (sold my Vali with one, but it took so long to get here from Russia I actually had to send it seperate) I almost don't dare offer my opinon, but I totally forgot to mention it. 

I would say don't buy in to the hype. Some people love the tube, but the more recent comments about it over on the Lyr thread from experienced people like AC and TK16 paint it to be now overpriced, lacking in low end among other things that make some of the aforementioned Soviet tubes (6N3P namely) superior to it in a number of ways. There is also that story about how one HeadFI member hyped it up (a specific year too, 1975) to high heaven, and also happened to have quite a few of them to sell. Prices went through the roof and as these things work, some became convinced that the tube was the best thing since sliced bread, proably because thats what they wanted to beleive after they shelled out the contents of their wallet for one  

But hey, what do I know. Never listened to one. This is just all stuff I have heard.


----------



## winders (Jan 15, 2019)

Really guys, the 5670 tubes were the best tubes I ever heard in the Vali 2 with the Western Electric 396A tube being the best.


----------



## Wes S (Jan 15, 2019)

winders said:


> Really guys, the 5670 tubes were the best tubes I ever heard in the Vaki 2 with the Western Electric 396A tube being the best.


The WE396A, was the best tube I found for the Valhalla 2, as well.  The WE396A, transformed the Valhalla 2, into a completely different and more capable amp.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Wes S said:


> The WE396A, was the best tube I found for the Valhalla 2, as well.  The WE396A, transformed the Valhalla 2, into a completely different and more capable amp.


You guys [winders and Wes S] got me - just bought one on ebay, 1964. I already liked GE 5670W new one best of my tubes, so here it goes. Let us see


----------



## Wes S

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> You guys [winders and Wes S] got me - just bought one on ebay, 1964. I already liked GE 5670W new one best of my tubes, so here it goes. Let us see


If it has a d getter, that is the good one.  Get ready for a good tube roll . . .


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Wes S said:


> If it has a d getter, that is the good one.  Get ready for a good tube roll . . .


says "square getter" - is it the same as d?


----------



## winders

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> says "square getter" - is it the same as d?



Yes.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

winders said:


> Yes.


Thanks, but not according to this


----------



## Wes S

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thanks, but not according
> 
> 
> Old Deaf Donkey said:
> ...


----------



## winders

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thanks, but not according to this



I guess YOU are the expert......


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

OK, understood. Many thanks. Any idea about RCA JRC-5670 Triple Mica?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

winders said:


> I guess YOU are the expert......


Gimme a break, will you? Old Deaf Donkey, newbie, asking questions, based on googling... Very grateful for advice, just looking for clarification, thanks a million, apologies


----------



## winders

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Gimme a break, will you? Old Deaf Donkey, newbie, asking questions, based on googling... Very grateful for advice, just looking for clarification, thanks a million, apologies



No, you give me a break! Look at how you phrase things....hardly an apology.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

winders said:


> No, you give me a break! Look at how you phrase things....hardly an apology.


Very well. I do regret sincerely if my remark or phrasing has offended you or anyone else. My sole intention was to benefit from your experience in guiding me in my further exploits of tube rolling. I have little clue of influence of the tube components or characteristics to their sonic qualities, and I have not been aware of "getters" before this exchange happened. I just looked up the term and found the classification. Please do not take offence.


----------



## D4nnyF3nt0m

Hello Vali lovers!

Im new on this forum and new with tube rolling
I was wondering if ECC83 and ECC82 tubes will work with the VALI 2.
Maybe with adapters?

In the meantime I have some other tubes and adapters on the way to start rolling.
Thanks for your great advise in this thread sofar!

-D4nnyF3nt0m


----------



## Keno18

D4nnyF3nt0m said:


> Hello Vali lovers!
> 
> Im new on this forum and new with tube rolling
> I was wondering if ECC83 and ECC82 tubes will work with the VALI 2.
> ...


Yes, both will work with a 12au7 to 6922 adapter (ebay). While you're shopping for adapters you might as well pick up a 6sn7 to 6922 adapter and a socket saver because you'll really want to try out that 6sn7 tube.


----------



## D4nnyF3nt0m

Thanks for the advice.
I read the whole thread twice and I ordered that adapter and socket saver a few days ago.
Also ordered a nice Foton 1953 Ribbed and some Russian Voshkod 6N1P-EV.

If only the VALI 2 was on stock in europe hahaha.


----------



## Keno18

D4nnyF3nt0m said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> I read the whole thread twice and I ordered that adapter and socket saver a few days ago.
> Also ordered a nice Foton 1953 Ribbed and some Russian Voshkod 6N1P-EV.
> 
> If only the VALI 2 was on stock in europe hahaha.


You should add a Tung-Sol 6sn7gt "mouse ears" to your list, you won't be disappointed.


----------



## timb5881

D4nnyF3nt0m said:


> Hello Vali lovers!s
> 
> Im new on this forum and new with tube rolling
> I was wondering if ECC83 and ECC82 tubes will work with the VALI 2.
> ...


You can use ECC82 (12AU7) tubes if you get a 6922 (pins) to 12AX7 (sockets)  adapter . While you could use ECC81(12AT7) and ECC83(12ax7) with this adapter, the specs are not the same.  !2AU7 tubes are a fairly close sub as long as you use the adapter.  The 12 series are 12 volt and the 6922/6DJ8 are 6 volt, the adapter combines the 12 series heater in parallel to sum to a 6 volt heater.  If you look at the Schiit sight, it says just about any tube that has a 6 volt heater and draws less than 600 mA  or less heater current and you can use it with the appropriate pin out or adapter to 6922 pin's.  Many people use the 6SN7 series of tubes, you need a 6922 to 6SN7 adapter, you also need a socket saver to allow this to be used.
Now you can use an ECC82, it may or may not sound good because the specs are not the same.


----------



## adolchristin

This may sound strange but I just wanted to thank basically who contributed to this thread; I picked up a Vali 2 after reading through it.

I received it the other day along with a genelex and electro harmonix tubes and look forward to trying some of the other recommendations in this thread.  So far even though this is just a hybrid tube amp it definitely has a bit more warmth to it than the solid state amps I/ve used up to this point.


----------



## Keno18

adolchristin said:


> This may sound strange but I just wanted to thank basically who contributed to this thread; I picked up a Vali 2 after reading through it.
> 
> I received it the other day along with a genelex and electro harmonix tubes and look forward to trying some of the other recommendations in this thread.  So far even though this is just a hybrid tube amp it definitely has a bit more warmth to it than the solid state amps I/ve used up to this point.


If it's warmth you're looking for don't be afraid of using adapters. The 12au7 from Electro-harmonix  (I'm listening to it now.) has a rich sound with good bass. It's pretty cheap, but requires a 12au7 to 6922 adapter. For an even warmer sound any of the available vintage Tung-Sol 6sn7s will do. Again a 6sn7 to 6922 adapter plus a socket saver will be needed.


----------



## adolchristin

Keno18 said:


> If it's warmth you're looking for don't be afraid of using adapters. The 12au7 from Electro-harmonix  (I'm listening to it now.) has a rich sound with good bass. It's pretty cheap, but requires a 12au7 to 6922 adapter. For an even warmer sound any of the available vintage Tung-Sol 6sn7s will do. Again a 6sn7 to 6922 adapter plus a socket saver will be needed.


Nice, thank you for the information!  I assume you mean something like the following:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-Conver...88-6922-Tube-DIY-Adapter-Socket-/232415799770


----------



## Keno18 (Jan 18, 2019)

adolchristin said:


> Nice, thank you for the information!  I assume you mean something like the following:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-Conver...88-6922-Tube-DIY-Adapter-Socket-/232415799770


Yes.
Edit: You may want to get a socket saver anyway, if you are tube rolling the saver will save wear and tear on the Vali's internal socket. I use one myself.


----------



## adolchristin

Keno18 said:


> Yes.


Thanks a bunch, going to grab one.


----------



## Keno18

adolchristin said:


> Thanks a bunch, going to grab one.


Read my edited answer above about the socket saver while you're shopping.


----------



## adolchristin

Keno18 said:


> Read my edited answer above about the socket saver while you're shopping.


Oh, yep.  Will grab one of these as well.  Looks like a pretty smart idea.


----------



## Nastrahl

Hi,

I recently noticed a channel unbalance that didn't exist before and I wondered if it can comes from the tube ?

I have an Electro-Harmonix 6922 EH Gold Pin I bought with low microphonic and balanced triodes options.

I thought it would be a good occasion to roll for a Tung-Sol 6sn7gt, new production since no mouse ears are available. Do you think it could fix it ?

I also saw on TubeDepot that you can select the a high gain tube for $2. Since I mostly use the Vali 2 in high gain (I read a few times that it's recommended and sounds better as well as for a better tube "effects"), Is it better to take a high gain one what will be the diofferences ?) ?

Thanks.


----------



## bcowen

Nastrahl said:


> Hi,
> 
> I recently noticed a channel unbalance that didn't exist before and I wondered if it can comes from the tube ?
> 
> ...



If the channel imbalance has occurred recently but didn't exist earlier it _could_ be the tube if there has been a significant drop in emission in one of the triodes.  Only way to know that for sure is to test the tube.

I don't know what TubeDepot is referring to with the high gain option. If they are simply selecting tubes with higher GM or emissions (relative to other like tubes), then it isn't going to make one iota of difference in the sound and is, quite frankly, a pile of marketing BS. Perhaps there is something else they are referring to, but I'd love to know what it is. The important thing with the Vali 2 is to have good GM balance between the triodes, and I wouldn't pay extra for anything beyond that.

In my opinion the EH 6922 isn't a very good sounding tube to begin with, so almost anything you replace it with will sound better.   The TungSol 6SN7 will require an adapter (and probably a socket saver) if you're willing to do that, otherwise there are lots of alternatives in the 6922/6DJ8 family that can sound very good.


----------



## timb5881

Has any one tried the PCC88/7DJ8 tubes besides me?


----------



## bcowen

I tried some Philips and Matsu PCC88's in my big rig amp, but never tried them in the Vali 2. They sounded good, but not as good as the Amperex 6922's they replaced to my ears.  Of course, different component, different preferences and all that apply.


----------



## Nastrahl

bcowen said:


> If the channel imbalance has occurred recently but didn't exist earlier it _could_ be the tube if there has been a significant drop in emission in one of the triodes.  Only way to know that for sure is to test the tube.
> 
> I don't know what TubeDepot is referring to with the high gain option. If they are simply selecting tubes with higher GM or emissions (relative to other like tubes), then it isn't going to make one iota of difference in the sound and is, quite frankly, a pile of marketing BS. Perhaps there is something else they are referring to, but I'd love to know what it is. The important thing with the Vali 2 is to have good GM balance between the triodes, and I wouldn't pay extra for anything beyond that.
> 
> In my opinion the EH 6922 isn't a very good sounding tube to begin with, so almost anything you replace it with will sound better.   The TungSol 6SN7 will require an adapter (and probably a socket saver) if you're willing to do that, otherwise there are lots of alternatives in the 6922/6DJ8 family that can sound very good.



Thanks for your advices!

The EH 6922 was recommended a lot everywhere I put my eyes on the Internet for the ones wanting to roll without any adaptater or socket saver so I wanted to give it a try since it's a cheap invesment, and I was quite satisfied.

It probably happened when I moved even if I took the tube off the Vali 2 before; I don't know.

I'll take it as a sign that I should roll.


----------



## bcowen

Nastrahl said:


> Thanks for your advices!
> 
> The EH 6922 was recommended a lot everywhere I put my eyes on the Internet for the ones wanting to roll without any adaptater or socket saver so I wanted to give it a try since it's a cheap invesment, and I was quite satisfied.
> 
> ...



Buying a Vali 2 is all the sign you need to roll.   

Please note that my criticism of the EH is based on my personal tastes and preferences and the rest of my system and 'phones. All of that comes into play with _any_ tube.  To their credit the EH's are inexpensive, last a long time and tend to be very quiet, but I _do_ think you'll be pleasantly surprised with an upgrade.


----------



## Nastrahl

bcowen said:


> Buying a Vali 2 is all the sign you need to roll.
> 
> Please note that my criticism of the EH is based on my personal tastes and preferences and the rest of my system and 'phones. All of that comes into play with _any_ tube.  To their credit the EH's are inexpensive, last a long time and tend to be very quiet, but I _do_ think you'll be pleasantly surprised with an upgrade.



Noted! But no worry I understood you very well. 

Since I'm new to rolling so I mostly followed one of the popular first step given; now I'm prepared to let myself released to the wildness. 

I'm planning to do the TungSol 6SN7 upgrade as soon as TubeDepot restocks the adapter.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Nastrahl said:


> ...{snip}.... planning to do the TungSol 6SN7 upgrade as soon as TubeDepot restocks the adapter....{snip}...



@Nastrahl ... When the bits & pieces eventually arrive, would you be able to take a photo & post it?


----------



## Nastrahl

ScubaMan2017 said:


> @Nastrahl ... When the bits & pieces eventually arrive, would you be able to take a photo & post it?


Sure! 

I hope they will be restocked soon.


----------



## Robert Padgett

ScubaMan2017 said:


> @Nastrahl ... When the bits & pieces eventually arrive, would you be able to take a photo & post it?



 Here is a 6SN7 to 6922 adapters which is sitting atop a socket-saver. The tube is a JJ 6SN7


----------



## luckybaer

Don't get too crazy.  It is, after all, a $149 amp.  Or, is it $129 now?  Can't remember.


----------



## Wes S

luckybaer said:


> Don't get too crazy.  It is, after all, a $149 amp.  Or, is it $129 now?  Can't remember.


$149 and out of stock. . .


----------



## luckybaer

Wes S said:


> $149 and out of stock. . .


End of life coming, or just more popular than ever?


----------



## Keno18 (Jan 25, 2019)

luckybaer said:


> End of life coming, or just more popular than ever?


I hope it's just popular. I don't even want to think about investing a new model.
Edit: Site says it's back ordered. Whew.


----------



## exdmd

I used a Vali 2 while I was saving for a top of the line tube amp. It is probably the least expensive tube hybrid amp that works well with the HD800S. Rather than spending hundreds of dollars rolling tubes using adapters it might be a better idea just to save up and get a Lyr 3 (amp only) instead.


----------



## Keno18

exdmd said:


> I used a Vali 2 while I was saving for a top of the line tube amp. It is probably the least expensive tube hybrid amp that works well with the HD800S. Rather than spending hundreds of dollars rolling tubes using adapters it might be a better idea just to save up and get a Lyr 3 (amp only) instead.


I think you're still going to want to tube roll with the Lyr. I used the Vali to find the tube I like. Now I have the option of upgrading to the Lyr knowing what tube I want to use.


----------



## exdmd

It is hard to go wrong with a 1950-1953 Sylvania 6SN7GT just be patient until you can pick one up for $50 to $70. If you don't like it you can always sell it for what you paid. It is almost impossible to go wrong with a 1940s Tung Sol 6SN7GT with round plates and round micas but spending $250 on a tube for a $500 amp is probably overkill for most.


----------



## Paladin79

Luckily I have other amps that use that tube as well so it is not a waste for me.


----------



## HellooooThar

exdmd said:


> It is hard to go wrong with a 1950-1953 Sylvania 6SN7GT just be patient until you can pick one up for $50 to $70. If you don't like it you can always sell it for what you paid. It is almost impossible to go wrong with a 1940s Tung Sol 6SN7GT with round plates and round micas but spending $250 on a tube for a $500 amp is probably overkill for most.



Yeah all I can say is my tube preferences changed from Vali 2 to Lyr 2 with the HE 400I despite both amps using 6922 variants. The Lyr 2 is punchier and “bigger” IMO. It didn’t need some of the sound that I was getting from tubes I had liked on the Vali. Now I’m liking more laid back tubes like the Matsu 7DJ8 over the likes of the 1959 Bugle Boys I had liked before.


----------



## Wes S (Jan 25, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> I think you're still going to want to tube roll with the Lyr. I used the Vali to find the tube I like. Now I have the option of upgrading to the Lyr knowing what tube I want to use.


Thing is some tubes work better with different amps.  So the tube you love in the Vali 2, might not be the one for the Lyr 3.


----------



## Grado Diesel

I’m looking for another good tube for my Vali 2. I’m powering a pair of Hifiman HE400i’s. A day after receiving it in the mail I quickly purchased a Genelex Gold Lion ECC88 and have been using that for 2 years. A week ago I picked up an EHX 6CG7 with gold pins and man what a difference. The highs are even smoother, the bass warmed up and punchy. I’m wondering what’s another good tube to try? I don’t love brash highs or piercing “s’s”’ from vocals. I listen to a lot of rocknroll and guitar driven music - Allman Brothers, Zep, Grateful Dead, Jeff Beck, Mountain, etc. I’m kinda thinking of getting an adapter and getting a Tung-sol 6SN7. Any recommendations for a must have? I really don’t want to spend more than $40 something for my next tube -unless it’s heavenly.


----------



## Keno18

Grado Diesel said:


> I’m looking for another good tube for my Vali 2. I’m powering a pair of Hifiman HE400i’s. A day after receiving it in the mail I quickly purchased a Genelex Gold Lion ECC88 and have been using that for 2 years. A week ago I picked up an EHX 6CG7 with gold pins and man what a difference. The highs are even smoother, the bass warmed up and punchy. I’m wondering what’s another good tube to try? I don’t love brash highs or piercing “s’s”’ from vocals. I listen to a lot of rocknroll and guitar driven music - Allman Brothers, Zep, Grateful Dead, Jeff Beck, Mountain, etc. I’m kinda thinking of getting an adapter and getting a Tung-sol 6SN7. Any recommendations for a must have? I really don’t want to spend more than $40 something for my next tube -unless it’s heavenly.


The only other tube I could recommend would be the vintage Tung-Sol 6sn7gt "mouse ears". They are kind of scarce at the moment on ebay. But I have been able to find a decent tube for anywhere from  $22 to  $45.


----------



## Wes S (Jan 26, 2019)

I would recommend an adapter and the WE396A/2C51.  This is a warm tube, and is very natural sounding, very 3d like, with the some of the best bass i have heard.  I think it could work nice with some rock.  They can be expensive, but you can find one for around $50, if you look hard enough.  This is a tube that one of the makers of the amp loves, by the way.


----------



## HellooooThar

Grado Diesel said:


> I’m looking for another good tube for my Vali 2. I’m powering a pair of Hifiman HE400i’s. A day after receiving it in the mail I quickly purchased a Genelex Gold Lion ECC88 and have been using that for 2 years. A week ago I picked up an EHX 6CG7 with gold pins and man what a difference. The highs are even smoother, the bass warmed up and punchy. I’m wondering what’s another good tube to try? I don’t love brash highs or piercing “s’s”’ from vocals. I listen to a lot of rocknroll and guitar driven music - Allman Brothers, Zep, Grateful Dead, Jeff Beck, Mountain, etc. I’m kinda thinking of getting an adapter and getting a Tung-sol 6SN7. Any recommendations for a must have? I really don’t want to spend more than $40 something for my next tube -unless it’s heavenly.



I’m pretty sure you can do even better than that 6CG7. The 396A is supposed to be one of the warmer tubes. 

That being said, I really liked my large O getter Amperex 6CG7 from ‘72. One of the ones with the connected single heater wire at the top. I have 400Is myself and I thought the bass really opened up with the 6CG7 and presentation just felt nice. 

I haven’t heard one on a Vali (have a Lyr 2 now) but my new favorite cheap tube is the Matsuschita “Mullard” 7DJ8 (mine is branded National). I LOVE it with the 400I on the Lyr. Smooth but holographic highs, clean bass with a little warmth and a sort of “butter” in the midrange. You can find them for real cheap (last time I checked) if you just need singles.


----------



## Grado Diesel

Wes S said:


> I would recommend an adapter and the WE396A/2C51.  This is a warm tube, and is very natural sounding, very 3d like, with the some of the best bass i have heard.  I think it could work nice with some rock.  They can be expensive, but you can find one for around $50, if you look hard enough.  This is a tube that one of the makers of the amp loves, by the way.


Do those WE396A/2C51 tubes already fit in the 6922 socket on the Vali?


----------



## Keno18

Grado Diesel said:


> Do those WE396A/2C51 tubes already fit in the 6922 socket on the Vali?


No. You need an adapter. (Ebay)


----------



## Keno18

@Grado Diesel: The Tung-Sol 6sn7gt "mouse ears" is a good option for a warm tube and is usually highly rated. Ebay has them again for $20-$25 plus shipping. The adapter and socket saver is back in stock on tubedepot.com.


----------



## Mr Trev (Jan 26, 2019)

Grado Diesel said:


> Do those WE396A/2C51 tubes already fit in the 6922 socket on the Vali?



Technically, those tubes do fit the Vali2 socket - being 9 pin and all. They are wired differently however - IIRC it's just the heaters on different pins, so you'll need to use an adapter
Or you could just do this:


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Robert Padgett said:


> Here is a 6SN7 to 6922 adapters which is sitting atop a socket-saver. The tube is a JJ 6SN7


...jotted down the codes. Thanks, eh. I’ll do my first purchase via Tube Depot (and suck up the CDN/USD exchange rate + GST + brokerage fee). Canuck Audio Mart [link] is a bit too wild-West for me. I _could save money, at the risk of being hosed. Meh._


----------



## Mr Trev

ScubaMan2017 said:


> ...jotted down the codes. Thanks, eh. I’ll do my first purchase via Tube Depot (and suck up the CDN/USD exchange rate + GST + brokerage fee). Canuck Audio Mart [link] is a bit too wild-West for me. I _could save money, at the risk of being hosed. Meh._



Hey, just a heads up…
If you ever decide to buy some tubes off ebay, make sure you _don't _buy from anybody using the "Global Shipping Program". It seems nice and convenient, having the final price baked in (eg. no extra taxes/fees), but chances are pretty good the tubes will be seized at the border as "dangerous goods". Hasn't happened to me, but that's probably just because I've talked to people it has happened to first.


----------



## ScubaMan2017 (Jan 27, 2019)

Mr Trev said:


> Technically, those tubes do fit the Vali2 socket - being 9 pin and all. They are wired differently however - IIRC it's just the heaters on different pins, so you'll need to use an adapter
> Or you could just do this:


DANGER WILL ROBINSON. DANGER. DANGER. DANGER. When does the magic blue smoke start billowing out of it?

“...and they all moved away from me... sitting on the Group W bench there....”

@Mr Trev  ...It’s a well crafted image. It’s beautiful, in its own sinister [and tentacled] way. I respect that.


----------



## nixternal

This is getting ridiculous thanks to Tube Depot. Socket Saver + 6SN7 to 6922 Adapter + JJ 6SN7. Looks dumb as all hell, but oh lord does it sound beautiful! Steely Dan with Babylon Sisters is buttery smooth, and this is out of the box, barely an hour of running. The detail, the warmth, the clarity, just gorgeous. HAHA, just noticed in the pic, the tube in the top left is the Japanese Mullard which I also love. As of right now, it is 2nd to this beast. Everytime I look at my damn Vali all I do is laugh.


----------



## Robert Padgett

nixternal said:


> This is getting ridiculous thanks to Tube Depot. Socket Saver + 6SN7 to 6922 Adapter + JJ 6SN7. Looks dumb as all hell, but oh lord does it sound beautiful! Steely Dan with Babylon Sisters is buttery smooth, and this is out of the box, barely an hour of running. The detail, the warmth, the clarity, just gorgeous. HAHA, just noticed in the pic, the tube in the top left is the Japanese Mullard which I also love. As of right now, it is 2nd to this beast. Everytime I look at my damn Vali all I do is laugh.


It is a beautiful sight!


----------



## Mephit

My Vali sprouted a big tube tonight as well as I just got a Tung-Sol 6SN7 (new one, not NOS) from Vivatubes and added to the waiting adapter and tube saver I got from Ebay.  It does look strange, but works.

As for the sound, it is very detailed with a large sound stage.  However, it is on the bright side, especially paired with my DT990s.  I'm hoping it gets warmer as it burns in.


----------



## Keno18

Mephit said:


> My Vali sprouted a big tube tonight as well as I just got a Tung-Sol 6SN7 (new one, not NOS) from Vivatubes and added to the waiting adapter and tube saver I got from Ebay.  It does look strange, but works.
> 
> As for the sound, it is very detailed with a large sound stage.  However, it is on the bright side, especially paired with my DT990s.  I'm hoping it gets warmer as it burns in.


Welcome to the wonderful world of tube rolling. If you want something warmer, a vintage 6sn7 should do the trick.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

nixternal said:


> This is getting ridiculous thanks to Tube Depot. Socket Saver + 6SN7 to 6922 Adapter + JJ 6SN7. Looks dumb as all hell, but oh lord does it sound beautiful! Steely Dan with Babylon Sisters is buttery smooth, and this is out of the box, barely an hour of running. The detail, the warmth, the clarity, just gorgeous. HAHA, just noticed in the pic, the tube in the top left is the Japanese Mullard which I also love. As of right now, it is 2nd to this beast. Everytime I look at my damn Vali all I do is laugh.





Robert Padgett said:


> It is a beautiful sight!





Mephit said:


> My Vali sprouted a big tube tonight as well as I just got a Tung-Sol 6SN7 (new one, not NOS) from Vivatubes and added to the waiting adapter and tube saver I got from Ebay.  It does look strange, but works.
> 
> As for the sound, it is very detailed with a large sound stage.  However, it is on the bright side, especially paired with my DT990s.  I'm hoping it gets warmer as it burns in.





Keno18 said:


> Welcome to the wonderful world of tube rolling. If you want something warmer, a vintage 6sn7 should do the trick.



...documenting, documenting, documenting. Alright, then. I have a short-list shopping list. And some glamour shots too! Nice.


----------



## Nastrahl (Feb 2, 2019)

ScubaMan2017 said:


> @Nastrahl ... When the bits & pieces eventually arrive, would you be able to take a photo & post it?



Finally.

Is the gap between the socket saver and the adapter on purpose?

Edit: uploading file don't seems to work with my mobile phone so there's a link : http://imgur.com/X0vdcum


----------



## Keno18

Nastrahl said:


> Finally.
> 
> Is the gap between the socket saver and the adapter on purpose?
> 
> Edit: uploading file don't seems to work with my mobile phone so there's a link : http://imgur.com/X0vdcum


It's just the way the adapter is designed.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Nastrahl said:


> Finally.
> 
> Is the gap between the socket saver and the adapter on purpose?
> 
> Edit: uploading file don't seems to work with my mobile phone so there's a link : http://imgur.com/X0vdcum



Thank you for the image, @Nastrahl ...here's the image the OP was referring to...

Re: translucent tape on those glaring white LEDs. I like the soft (but tiny) incandescent glow of my Vali's stock tube, so I went the bits-of-black-electrical tape route. Re: exposed pins. Thanks for the head's up, @Keno18 ... If that happens to me when I eventually fart around with larger (and more pyrotechnically pleasing?) tubes, I might wrap some electrical tape to cover the exposed copper. Meh, we'll see.


----------



## exdmd

LightDims silver edition are cheap and match the aluminum cases of Schiit gear very well. They reduce the glare from the LED's about 85% so no longer a bother but you can tell the unit is on. Schiit seems to have toned down the LEDs somewhat now, I don't feel the need to cover up the LEDs on my Yggy but that LED on the Vali 2 was blinding.


----------



## Robert Padgett

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Thank you for the image, @Nastrahl ...here's the image the OP was referring to...
> 
> Re: translucent tape on those glaring white LEDs. I like the soft (but tiny) incandescent glow of my Vali's stock tube, so I went the bits-of-black-electrical tape route. Re: exposed pins. Thanks for the head's up, @Keno18 ... If that happens to me when I eventually fart around with larger (and more pyrotechnically pleasing?) tubes, I might wrap some electrical tape to cover the exposed copper. Meh, we'll see.


I was too cheap to buy the ones they sell, but any poly silver package material like potato chip bag and clear tape will do the same thing. just cut small squares and tape them over the Bright Lights of Schiit-way


----------



## Mr Trev (Feb 2, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> It's just the way the adapter is designed.



Pretty much every adapter - those from ebay or g1217 - I've seen has that gap. I'm not really sure why. I suppose if you were so inclined you could cut/sand the pins to close the gap. Or you could just keep resisting the temptation to start sticking a paperclip in there - you know, just to see what happens. If you don't trust yourself to not start sticking paperclips in there, then a quick wrap of electrical tape or heatshrink should save you from cartoonish disaster



ScubaMan2017 said:


> Thank you for the image, @Nastrahl ...here's the image the OP was referring to...
> 
> Re: translucent tape on those glaring white LEDs. I like the soft (but tiny) incandescent glow of my Vali's stock tube, so I went the bits-of-black-electrical tape route. Re: exposed pins. Thanks for the head's up, @Keno18 ... If that happens to me when I eventually fart around with larger (and more pyrotechnically pleasing?) tubes, I might wrap some electrical tape to cover the exposed copper. Meh, we'll see.



Those LEDs are the one thing I do hate about Schiit amps. Seriously, the glowing of the tube isn't enough of a sign the amp is powered on. You absolutely need to have a death ray LED. I cracked my amp open and coated the LED with a black paint pen, that way the light doesn't bleed inside the amp too. Another great idea that was suggested to me was to put a potentiometer on one of the LED legs. Then you can adjust the amount of light you want to put up with


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Technically, those tubes do fit the Vali2 socket - being 9 pin and all. They are wired differently however - IIRC it's just the heaters on different pins, so you'll need to use an adapter
> Or you could just do this:



ROFL!!!!!   The sight of that just makes me want to....do it myself.  I'd probably go with longer wires though, just 'cause.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!!!!   The sight of that just makes me want to....do it myself.  I'd probably go with longer wires though, just 'cause.



That's a pic from Jeremy (g1217) when he was doing pin tests for the 5670 adapter
Its totally awesome. It'd be even awesomer with dual 6j5s


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> It'd be even awesomer with dual 6j5s



Quit giving me ideas.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Mephit said:


> My Vali sprouted a big tube tonight as well as I just got a Tung-Sol 6SN7 (new one, not NOS) from Vivatubes and added to the waiting adapter and tube saver I got from Ebay.  It does look strange, but works.
> 
> As for the sound, it is very detailed with a large sound stage.  However, it is on the bright side, especially paired with my DT990s.  I'm hoping it gets warmer as it burns in.


I just received three 6SN7GTB Tung-sol (Made in the USA) from a vendor on eBay, so there are still good values for vintage tubes. You now know that a 6SN7 is different sounding tube than stock--welcome to rolling!


----------



## HellooooThar

Mr Trev said:


> Pretty much every adapter - those from ebay or g1217 - I've seen has that gap. I'm not really sure why. I suppose if you were so inclined you could cut/sand the pins to close the gap. Or you could just keep resisting the temptation to start sticking a paperclip in there - you know, just to see what happens. If you don't trust yourself to not start sticking paperclips in there, then a quick wrap of electrical tape or heatshrink should save you from cartoonish disaster
> 
> 
> 
> Those LEDs are the one thing I do hate about Schiit amps. Seriously, the glowing of the tube isn't enough of a sign the amp is powered on. You absolutely need to have a death ray LED. I cracked my amp open and coated the LED with a black paint pen, that way the light doesn't bleed inside the amp too. Another great idea that was suggested to me was to put a potentiometer on one of the LED legs. Then you can adjust the amount of light you want to put up with



Those lights are seriously annoying. I agree. I didn’t try it back when I had a Vali 2, but on my Lyr 2 (still pretty bright) I took the previous owners advice and used a skinny pointy implement to push the LED back in to the housing. It is now recessed about 1-2mm. This cut down on the forward thrown light significantly.


----------



## Grado Diesel

Keno18 said:


> @Grado Diesel: The Tung-Sol 6sn7gt "mouse ears" is a good option for a warm tube and is usually highly rated. Ebay has them again for $20-$25 plus shipping. The adapter and socket saver is back in stock on tubedepot.com.



Just got my mouse ears Tung-Sol 6SN7GT yesterday and got it fired up this morning. UNBELIEVABLE sound difference with this tube. Lush, wide soundstage. Guitars sound amazing. Bass fat and easy. Highs pulled back right where I like em. Pulled back so perfectly that I don’t need any EQ on on my FiiO X3ii (usually I need the 7k rolled back),


----------



## Keno18

Grado Diesel said:


> Just got my mouse ears Tung-Sol 6SN7GT yesterday and got it fired up this morning. UNBELIEVABLE sound difference with this tube. Lush, wide soundstage. Guitars sound amazing. Bass fat and easy. Highs pulled back right where I like em. Pulled back so perfectly that I don’t need any EQ on on my FiiO X3ii (usually I need the 7k rolled back),


Glad you like the tube. Another satisfied customer.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Grado Diesel said:


> Just got my mouse ears Tung-Sol 6SN7GT yesterday and got it fired up this morning. UNBELIEVABLE sound difference with this tube. Lush, wide soundstage. Guitars sound amazing. Bass fat and easy. Highs pulled back right where I like em. Pulled back so perfectly that I don’t need any EQ on my FiiO X3ii (usually I need the 7k rolled back),



I am listening to a Tall Boy three hole from the same lady that sold me the Mouse-ears, and I think those Tung-sols were fine sounding tubes on their own, with or without the round micas


----------



## RogueWolfe

Got a lot of tipps from this thread - thanks everyone. Running my vali 2 with an electro harmonix 6CG7 currently and am very happy with it. Nice stage, great resolution.

I'd still like to add a little more air and resolution high up - I'll probably give these 6sn7 a try - looks like many of you are happy with it... 

Out of curiosity - any classical music lovers with a particular recommendation?

Currently running a beyer dt770 80 ohm with the vali . Source is mostly an aries mini / mx-dac combination.


----------



## HellooooThar

RogueWolfe said:


> Got a lot of tipps from this thread - thanks everyone. Running my vali 2 with an electro harmonix 6CG7 currently and am very happy with it. Nice stage, great resolution.
> 
> I'd still like to add a little more air and resolution high up - I'll probably give these 6sn7 a try - looks like many of you are happy with it...
> 
> ...




I don't know if people are doing it much on the Vali, but over on the Lyr thread, people love the 12AX7or 12AU7 tube type. Needs an adapter, but supposedly has great sonic properties. A lot smaller than the 6SN7 -- basically the same size as a 6922, maybe a tad bigger. 

On another note, I have some barely used/unused tubes I want to pass on. If there is any interest Electro Harmonix 12AX7s, Herleen Holland 1963 6DJ8s or even someone who might want to try Telefunken or a Simens ECC84 (requires a cheap adapter) I have those as well. I'd rather let them go to yall then deal with the eBay hassle and sell for inflated prices etc


----------



## Keno18

RogueWolfe said:


> Got a lot of tipps from this thread - thanks everyone. Running my vali 2 with an electro harmonix 6CG7 currently and am very happy with it. Nice stage, great resolution.
> 
> I'd still like to add a little more air and resolution high up - I'll probably give these 6sn7 a try - looks like many of you are happy with it...
> 
> ...


I'd recommend the Tung-Sol 6sn7gt "mouse ears" vintage tube. I tried the 12au7/12ax7 route but they simply don't compare. Earlier posts on this thread will give you more information.


----------



## RogueWolfe

HellooooThar said:


> On another note, I have some barely used/unused tubes I want to pass on. If there is any interest Electro Harmonix 12AX7s, Herleen Holland 1963 6DJ8s or even someone who might want to try Telefunken or a Simens ECC84 (requires a cheap adapter) I have those as well. I'd rather let them go to yall then deal with the eBay hassle and sell for inflated prices etc


Thanks for the offer! I'm in Germany though -makes this rather impractical unfortunately.


----------



## RogueWolfe

Keno18 said:


> I'd recommend the Tung-Sol 6sn7gt "mouse ears" vintage tube. I tried the 12au7/12ax7 route but they simply don't compare. Earlier posts on this thread will give you more information.


I'll be reading up on them! I'm debating getting a Saga Preamp as my next upgrade, so another use case for them in the future. They seem rather scarce though, right?


----------



## Grado Diesel

What years were the mouse ears made?


----------



## Keno18

RogueWolfe said:


> I'll be reading up on them! I'm debating getting a Saga Preamp as my next upgrade, so another use case for them in the future. They seem rather scarce though, right?


I saw a pair go for  $44.90 USD on ebay.  Also on audiotubes.com for  $45 USD each. They used to be plentiful but not so much anymore. Keep your eyes open for them, they do pop up.


----------



## Keno18

Grado Diesel said:


> What years were the mouse ears made?


Late 40's, early 50's. My earliest is 1952.


----------



## Grado Diesel (Feb 4, 2019)

What’s the difference between the gold pinned China made socket savers on eBay vs the silver pin socket savers from TubeDepot.com? The gold pin ones I bought on eBay have pins that shake. The silver pin one from Tube Depot has nice tight pins. Does that make a difference? Here’s a couple pics of the two. The socket on the top is the gold pin one from eBay, the bottom is the silver pin one from Tube Depot.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Grado Diesel said:


> What’s the difference between the gold pinned China made socket savers on eBay vs the silver pin socket savers from TubeDepot.com? The gold pin ones I bought on eBay have pins that shake. The silver pin one from Tube Depot has nice tight pins. Does that make a difference? Here’s a couple pics of the two. The socket on the top is the gold pin one from eBay, the bottom is the silver pin one from Tube Depot.



We might be surprised that they both come from the same factory in China. Loose pins? I have not found this in the four-socket savers I have, and unless it is really loose, it should not be a problem. I have noted that the 9-pins seem made longer than the sockets they will be inserted, leaving a small gap of exposed pins...which seems consistent in both gold and silver (which may well be brass and steel) versions, making me think they are from the same source. If they work, then it is all good.


----------



## Keno18

Grado Diesel said:


> What’s the difference between the gold pinned China made socket savers on eBay vs the silver pin socket savers from TubeDepot.com? The gold pin ones I bought on eBay have pins that shake. The silver pin one from Tube Depot has nice tight pins. Does that make a difference? Here’s a couple pics of the two. The socket on the top is the gold pin one from eBay, the bottom is the silver pin one from Tube Depot.


Interesting, I have both and neither shake. Must be a different run. If the connection is tight with the tube in it there should be no difference. Otherwise I'd use the silver pin.


----------



## Grado Diesel

Keno18 said:


> Interesting, I have both and neither shake. Must be a different run. If the connection is tight with the tube in it there should be no difference. Otherwise I'd use the silver pin.


The connection’s pretty tight with the gold but wicked tight with the steel one. I also feel like the gold one sounds a little louder in the left channel. The steel one seems balanced and the bass is better. Weird.


----------



## Mr Trev

Grado Diesel said:


> The connection’s pretty tight with the gold but wicked tight with the steel one. I also feel like the gold one sounds a little louder in the left channel. The steel one seems balanced and the bass is better. Weird.


The ebay adapters I have seem to have smaller pins (gold plated) too. Using two adapters to run a 6sn7 is a little wobbly. I would expect an adapter from Tube Mongers or G1217 would use pins that are the same as an actual tube.


----------



## Grado Diesel

Mr Trev said:


> The ebay adapters I have seem to have smaller pins (gold plated) too. Using two adapters to run a 6sn7 is a little wobbly. I would expect an adapter from Tube Mongers or G1217 would use pins that are the same as an actual tube.


Yeah they are too loose. The one from Tube Depots nice and tight. Keeps that tube in place.


----------



## sbtourist

Hi everyone,

I've recently got a Vali 2 and currently testing the EH 6CG7 and JJ E88CC Gold tubes: I have a slight preference for the former, but they both sound quite similar to me in the end, is anyone able to recommend a noticeably different sounding tube in reasonable price range (i.e. no more than double the price of those two)?

Thanks!


----------



## Mephit

sbtourist said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've recently got a Vali 2 and currently testing the EH 6CG7 and JJ E88CC Gold tubes: I have a slight preference for the former, but they both sound quite similar to me in the end, is anyone able to recommend a noticeably different sounding tube in reasonable price range (i.e. no more than double the price of those two)?
> 
> Thanks!


There are a lot to try, just going through the previous posts on this thread should give you an idea of some.  I have the JJ  gold pin and one that I found that sounds nice in a different way is a Reflector 6N1P.  It works without an adapter, has a good sound, and can be found on Ebay for less than 10 bucks including shipping.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Mephit said:


> There are a lot to try, just going through the previous posts on this thread should give you an idea of some.  I have the JJ  gold pin and one that I found that sounds nice in a different way is a Reflector 6N1P.  It works without an adapter, has a good sound, and can be found on Ebay for less than 10 bucks including shipping.


...@Mephit ... semi-serious question...
Is it longer than the stock tube shipped from Schiit? And how (gloriously) incandescent is it?


Nope, it still sounds like a crass posting. <


----------



## HellooooThar

sbtourist said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've recently got a Vali 2 and currently testing the EH 6CG7 and JJ E88CC Gold tubes: I have a slight preference for the former, but they both sound quite similar to me in the end, is anyone able to recommend a noticeably different sounding tube in reasonable price range (i.e. no more than double the price of those two)?
> 
> Thanks!



Are you in the cont. US? I have some NOS 1963 Amperex 6DJ8 from Holland I'm looking to part with. I would guess as an older NOS tube they would sound quite different. I'd sell you one for pretty cheap.


----------



## Robert Padgett

ScubaMan2017 said:


> ...@Mephit ... semi-serious question...
> Is it longer than the stock tube shipped from Schiit? And how (gloriously) incandescent is it?
> 
> 
> Nope, it still sounds like a crass posting. <



 This is a 6N1P which came stock with the Vali 2. It has a higher temperature than the e88cc, which might be why it glows so bright. (This a time exposure) It is a good sounding tube, after it get some time in the socket.  I would also recommend a socket-saver, and 6SN7 adapter and try some 6SN7 tubes. US Made Tung-sol Tall Boy with three holes can be purchased for under $10 on eBay...


----------



## Aremes

Nastrahl said:


> Finally.
> 
> Is the gap between the socket saver and the adapter on purpose?
> 
> Edit: uploading file don't seems to work with my mobile phone so there's a link : http://imgur.com/X0vdcum



I just bought two of these with my adapters: https://tubedepot.com/products/pre-amp-tube-damper

And placed them between them to cover/protect the gap.

Seems to look and work ok.


----------



## sbtourist

Mephit said:


> There are a lot to try, just going through the previous posts on this thread should give you an idea of some.  I have the JJ  gold pin and one that I found that sounds nice in a different way is a Reflector 6N1P.  It works without an adapter, has a good sound, and can be found on Ebay for less than 10 bucks including shipping.



Thanks for your answer. So are 6N1P tubes compatible without adapters? What about PCC88?


----------



## sbtourist

HellooooThar said:


> Are you in the cont. US? I have some NOS 1963 Amperex 6DJ8 from Holland I'm looking to part with. I would guess as an older NOS tube they would sound quite different. I'd sell you one for pretty cheap.



I'm not in the US I'm afraid.


----------



## HellooooThar

sbtourist said:


> Thanks for your answer. So are 6N1P tubes compatible without adapters? What about PCC88?



Yes. Compatible tubes with the Vali sans adapter should be as follows: 6CG7, 6FQ7, 6BK7, PCC88 (7DJ8), ECC88 (6DJ8), E88CC (6922 and it's many family members-I'll go in to this), 6N1P, 6N2P, 6N23P, ECC85. I am probably forgetting one or two of the more "niche" ones or sub versions. 

7DJ8 (PCC88 in Europe) are identical in almost every way to a 6DJ8 (ECC88). The main difference is they technically use a higher heater voltage (7V) as opposed to 6.3V of the "normal" 6922 substitute. They work fine though...I use a 7DJ8 variant (Japanese Matsushita) in my Lyr 2. If anything it will last longer, but some people say they don't like the 7DJ8 sound. I say it's up to you!

On the topic of 6922 variants...technically the 6922 (E88CC) is a high end version of the 6DJ8. Their internal structure is almost always different from the 6DJ8/7DJ8, but they should have nearly identical properties. Between the US and Europe, there are MANY variants. Some are highly sought after and command insane prices (Simens Cca for example). 

You can read this article on them: http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm

I wouldn't buy in to all of the hype he has for some types of tube (he wants to sell you them remember) but it at least makes a little more sense of the nomenclature.


----------



## Nastrahl

Aremes said:


> I just bought two of these with my adapters: https://tubedepot.com/products/pre-amp-tube-damper
> 
> And placed them between them to cover/protect the gap.
> 
> Seems to look and work ok.



That's a great idea! Thanks!

Too bad I didn't thought about it when I bought my tube. Since I'm not living in the USA It will be at high cost to ship here.


----------



## Keno18

For those interested, eBay has a Tung-Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears going for $29.95.


----------



## nixternal (Feb 7, 2019)

Anyone interested, I can sling this up on to Thingiverse/MyMiniFactory so y You can 3D print a little cover going from a socket saver to the 6SN7 to 6922 adapter (my adapter is from Tube Depot). Thingiverse or MyMiniFactory


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> For those interested, eBay has a Tung-Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears going for $29.95.



Also, check for rebrands. I saw a Zenith (that's what I have) the other day for pretty cheap too.


----------



## nixternal

Keno18 said:


> For those interested, eBay has a Tung-Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears going for $29.95.


Just bought it. Hopefully it is legit & good


----------



## sbtourist

HellooooThar said:


> Yes. Compatible tubes with the Vali sans adapter should be as follows: 6CG7, 6FQ7, 6BK7, PCC88 (7DJ8), ECC88 (6DJ8), E88CC (6922 and it's many family members-I'll go in to this), 6N1P, 6N2P, 6N23P, ECC85. I am probably forgetting one or two of the more "niche" ones or sub versions.
> 
> 7DJ8 (PCC88 in Europe) are identical in almost every way to a 6DJ8 (ECC88). The main difference is they technically use a higher heater voltage (7V) as opposed to 6.3V of the "normal" 6922 substitute. They work fine though...I use a 7DJ8 variant (Japanese Matsu****a) in my Lyr 2. If anything it will last longer, but some people say they don't like the 7DJ8 sound. I say it's up to you!
> 
> ...



This is a great answer. Thanks!


----------



## ScubaMan2017

HellooooThar said:


> Yes. Compatible tubes with the Vali sans adapter should be as follows: 6CG7, 6FQ7, 6BK7, PCC88 (7DJ8), ECC88 (6DJ8), E88CC (6922 and it's many family members-I'll go in to this), 6N1P, 6N2P, 6N23P, ECC85. I am probably forgetting one or two of the more "niche" ones or sub versions.
> 
> 7DJ8 (PCC88 in Europe) are identical in almost every way to a 6DJ8 (ECC88). The main difference is they technically use a higher heater voltage (7V) as opposed to 6.3V of the "normal" 6922 substitute. They work fine though...I use a 7DJ8 variant (Japanese Matsu****a) in my Lyr 2. If anything it will last longer, but some people say they don't like the 7DJ8 sound. I say it's up to you!
> 
> ...


I appreciated this clarification @HellooooThar ... the nomenclature gets a bit hairy for us newcomers to the rolling shtick. _BTW, your icon always reminds me of Ryan Reynolds... _in particular his BBC Radio 1 posting... schoolyard insults (NSFW, and all kinds of awesome).


----------



## Mephit

Okay Robert, you've made a convert.  I just plugged a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT into my Vali 2 and it sounds great.


----------



## Paladin79

That is a start, now you need a 7N7 tall boy with Loktal adapter, and the world is your oyster. Till you try dual 6j5's in place of the 6922. There are choices lol.


----------



## Mr Trev

Mephit said:


> Okay Robert, you've made a convert.  I just plugged a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT into my Vali 2 and it sounds great.


Welcome to the Cult of Big Tubes


----------



## nixternal (Feb 11, 2019)

Received the ol' mouse ears today from that ebay listing the other day. I like it, kind of a lot. I will run it for a bit before I decide if I like it over my JJ 6SN7 that I was running previously. As of right now, they are pretty close sounding to me, but after running for a day or 2 we shall see if that stays the same. This thing doesn't have much glow, but it has glorious sound for sure. One thing I did notice right away, schiit in gets you schiit out for sure. My good sounding tracks sound amazing. My crappy recorded tracks sound, well like schiit. Probably enjoy Diana Krall through this tube more so than any other tube I have tried to date.

EDIT: How do you figure/find out the production year of these mouse ears?


----------



## Keno18

nixternal said:


> Received the ol' mouse ears today from that ebay listing the other day. I like it, kind of a lot. I will run it for a bit before I decide if I like it over my JJ 6SN7 that I was running previously. As of right now, they are pretty close sounding to me, but after running for a day or 2 we shall see if that stays the same. This thing doesn't have much glow, but it has glorious sound for sure. One thing I did notice right away, schiit in gets you schiit out for sure. My good sounding tracks sound amazing. My crappy recorded tracks sound, well like schiit. Probably enjoy Diana Krall through this tube more so than any other tube I have tried to date.
> 
> EDIT: How do you figure/find out the production year of these mouse ears?


There's a 6 digit code number to the right of the Tung-Sol logo. I belive the last 3 digits are the last digit of the year and the other 2 are the number of weeks into the year. In my case the tube has the code 322237. So it was made the 37th week of 1952.


----------



## nixternal

Keno18 said:


> There's a 6 digit code number to the right of the Tung-Sol logo. I belive the last 3 digits are the last digit of the year and the other 2 are the number of weeks into the year. In my case the tube has the code 322237. So it was made the 37th week of 1952.


I don't have 6, I have 7. Number on mine is 322326-3. What I have found out from the tube museum is 322 is Tung-Sol, the 3 after the 322 is supposedly for a filament voltage between 3.0 & 3.9 volts. Now, the -3 could actually be for the filament voltage leaving 326 to mean 26th week of 1953? No idea, I just know it is lovely. Been running for about 10 hours now, pretty much non-stop. The warmth, the sound stage, man the highs are so clean & crisp, and the bass. Wow. I listened to some Theon Cross & his tuba over my AKG's and did a holy hell. Not to shabby for $30.


----------



## Keno18

nixternal said:


> I don't have 6, I have 7. Number on mine is 322326-3. What I have found out from the tube museum is 322 is Tung-Sol, the 3 after the 322 is supposedly for a filament voltage between 3.0 & 3.9 volts. Now, the -3 could actually be for the filament voltage leaving 326 to mean 26th week of 1953? No idea, I just know it is lovely. Been running for about 10 hours now, pretty much non-stop. The warmth, the sound stage, man the highs are so clean & crisp, and the bass. Wow. I listened to some Theon Cross & his tuba over my AKG's and did a holy hell. Not to shabby for $30.


I think the 326 is your date code. As for the sound, once I bought the mouse ears I never looked back. I stopped looking for better tubes. I've been told the Tung-Sol round plates are even better but way to expensive for me.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Mephit said:


> Okay Robert, you've made a convert.  I just plugged a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT into my Vali 2 and it sounds great.



It is a beautiful thing... I am wondering what @Keno18 thinks about the Tung-Sol Tall Boys of the same vintage?  I am thinking about another Mouse-ears if I find one at the right (read-cheaper) price. But, I scored three Tall Boys and they seem as sweet. Splitting fine hairs...


----------



## Keno18

Robert Padgett said:


> It is a beautiful thing... I am wondering what @Keno18 thinks about the Tung-Sol Tall Boys of the same vintage?  I am thinking about another Mouse-ears if I find one at the right (read-cheaper) price. But, I scored three Tall Boys and they seem as sweet. Splitting fine hairs...


I'm not familiar with that tube specifically, but in general I've heard all the Tung-Sol tubes are good. For good or bad when I find a tube I like I tend to stick with it and get multiple backups to prolong the listening experience.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Keno18 said:


> I'm not familiar with that tube specifically, but in general I've heard all the Tung-Sol tubes are good. For good or bad when I find a tube I like I tend to stick with it and get multiple backups to prolong the listening experience.



It is funny you should say that, the vendor from whom I bought the $5.63 Mouse-ears also had the tall boys. I ordered one from her, and she sent me a messaage that she didn't have another Mouse ears, but would either send me a refund or 3- tubes. I was only buying one, and explained that me dropping the Mouse was in no way her fault--it was my error. So she sent me three Tall Boys... so I am set. Now those 'Mouse ears' have jumped into the $20-50 price range, and I guess "Three in the hand beats One in the trash" to paraphrase the expression.


----------



## Mr Trev

Robert Padgett said:


> It is funny you should say that, the vendor from whom I bought the $5.63 Mouse-ears also had the tall boys. I ordered one from her, and she sent me a messaage that she didn't have another Mouse ears, but would either send me a refund or 3- tubes. I was only buying one, and explained that me dropping the Mouse was in no way her fault--it was my error. So she sent me three Tall Boys... so I am set. Now those 'Mouse ears' have jumped into the $20-50 price range, and I guess "Three in the hand beats One in the trash" to paraphrase the expression.



I think ebay sellers troll these forums looking for what's the flavour of the month, jacking up the prices accordingly.
Either that or @bcowen has started to buy up every mouse ear and supply is the dwindling


----------



## Keno18

Robert Padgett said:


> It is funny you should say that, the vendor from whom I bought the $5.63 Mouse-ears also had the tall boys. I ordered one from her, and she sent me a messaage that she didn't have another Mouse ears, but would either send me a refund or 3- tubes. I was only buying one, and explained that me dropping the Mouse was in no way her fault--it was my error. So she sent me three Tall Boys... so I am set. Now those 'Mouse ears' have jumped into the $20-50 price range, and I guess "Three in the hand beats One in the trash" to paraphrase the expression.


You certainly had yourself a deal there! Backups too!


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I think ebay sellers troll these forums looking for what's the flavour of the month, jacking up the prices accordingly.
> Either that or @bcowen has started to buy up every mouse ear and supply is the dwindling



I would much rather blame Bill, it makes life simpler.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Mr Trev said:


> I think ebay sellers troll these forums looking for what's the flavour of the month, jacking up the prices accordingly.
> Either that or @bcowen has started to buy up every mouse ear and supply is the dwindling



Bill, nah, he is into 7N7s....he leaves these big tubes alone.....


----------



## Paladin79

It is the taller 7N7's that Bill seeks, this style.
 The tube on the left that is.


----------



## Mr Trev

Anybody get a chance to try those frankentubes in the Vali2 yet?


----------



## ScubaMan2017

nixternal said:


> Received the ol' mouse ears today from that ebay listing the other day. I like it, kind of a lot. I will run it for a bit before I decide if I like it over my JJ 6SN7 that I was running previously. As of right now, they are pretty close sounding to me, but after running for a day or 2 we shall see if that stays the same. This thing doesn't have much glow, but it has glorious sound for sure. One thing I did notice right away, schiit in gets you schiit out for sure. My good sounding tracks sound amazing. My crappy recorded tracks sound, well like schiit. Probably enjoy Diana Krall through this tube more so than any other tube I have tried to date.
> 
> EDIT: How do you figure/find out the production year of these mouse ears?


Share a night-photo after that glorious tube's all warmed up? Very nice, indeed!


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I think ebay sellers troll these forums looking for what's the flavour of the month, jacking up the prices accordingly.
> Either that or @bcowen has started to buy up every mouse ear and supply is the dwindling



You mean there are still some out there? I am _way_ off my game....I thought I had them all.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I would much rather blame Bill, it makes life simpler.



There's a fee for that, you know.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> You mean there are still some out there? I am _way_ off my game....I thought I had them all.



"Frankentubes" was so last week Bill, we are hording all known stocks of 6J5GT. I may have purchased the last $14/pair in existence, and they are in a safe deposit box...plugged into the one-hole of the Vali 2


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> "Frankentubes" was so last week Bill, we are hording all known stocks of 6J5GT. I may have purchased the last $14/pair in existence, and they are in a safe deposit box...plugged into the one-hole of the Vali 2



Frankentubes? Crap. I thought you were talking about Mouse Ears. 

I already have all the Frankentubes.


----------



## HellooooThar

Me: *looks at Lyr 2 with 7DJ8s* "wow those look lame"
Me: If only there was a Lyr which used 6SN7s!
Me: *google*
Me: Hello Lyr 3! You look mighty fineeee 
*wallet screams* *imperial march plays*


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Frankentubes? Crap. I thought you were talking about Mouse Ears.
> 
> I already have all the Frankentubes.


I guess I am out of the loop...Looking forward to Valhalla 2 for these FOTONs


----------



## Keno18

Mouse ears night shot.


----------



## triggsviola

It sounds ok, too.


----------



## Aremes

triggsviola said:


> It sounds ok, too.



What tube is that?


----------



## triggsviola

Aremes said:


> What tube is that?


It’s a PSVane CV-181 MkII. Nothing special. It just looks cool.


----------



## Mr Trev (Feb 17, 2019)

Nevermind. Imgur is being a PITA and Dropbox doesn't want to show images


----------



## Robert Padgett (Feb 17, 2019)

The trick for tube glow pictures is a 30 second exposure at f/8, and a lighter to "paint" some fill.
 These are 1940s-era 6J5s


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> The trick for tube glow pictures is a 30 second exposure at f/8, and a lighter to "paint" some fill. These are 1940s-era 6J5s



Nice pic Robert!

But you haven't had your 6J5 adapter chrome plated yet?  Procrastinator.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Nice pic Robert!
> 
> But you haven't had your 6J5 adapter chrome plated yet?  Procrastinator.


I am in favor of the exposed electronics look


----------



## Mr Trev

Robert Padgett said:


> The trick for tube glow pictures is a 30 second exposure at f/8, and a lighter to "paint" some fill. These are 1940s-era 6J5s



30 sec. exposure?? Jeez, it must take some strong drugs to be able to hold your phone steady for that long


----------



## timb5881

triggsviola said:


> It’s a PSVane CV-181 MkII. Nothing special. It just looks cool.


So, is the PSVANE worth the price or not?


----------



## triggsviola

timb5881 said:


> So, is the PSVANE worth the price or not?



To me, yes. There is a pretty noticeable increase in detail and depth. And it looks really cool! I got it on Amazon for $85. It took a while to ship because it had to ship from China. I only knew about this tube because my desktop setup is a Feliks Euforia. I use the Vali as my nightstand rig. I listen to it more than anything else.


----------



## Mr Trev (Feb 17, 2019)

Another try at the blinding little tube:




Again, GE 5670, triple mica, etched glass

<edit> how are you guys uploading photos now? I remember you used to be able to do it directly without using a hosting service, but I haven't been able to figure out if that's still possible since the forum change


----------



## jaywillin

Mr Trev said:


> Another try at the blinding little tube:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




next to post reply, use the button that says upload a file


----------



## hardpike (Feb 18, 2019)

HellooooThar said:


> Then you will be happy to have to consolidate the consolidation...again...
> 
> While I never personally listened to a 6N23P (sold my Vali with one, but it took so long to get here from Russia I actually had to send it seperate) I almost don't dare offer my opinon, but I totally forgot to mention it.
> 
> ...



I do have a bunch of 6N23P ranging from 70s 80s and some 90s including the so-called holy grail. in general all of them are fantastic, with 70s ones being the best. but you can get cheap ones from 80s and 90s and they are fantastic. both voshkods and reflector are very good. I will share later a pic of my collection


----------



## hardpike (Feb 18, 2019)

Here they are...


----------



## LuczOr

@hardpike my scroll wheel almost caught fire.

Nice collection, though.


----------



## hardpike

LuczOr said:


> @hardpike my scroll wheel almost caught fire.
> 
> Nice collection, though.


Thanks!
funny fact (not that funny actually)... my Vali 2 died a few weeks ago... I sent it for repair (under warranty). I hope to get it back soon. I miss my buddy....


----------



## ScubaMan2017

hardpike said:


> Thanks!
> funny fact (not that funny actually)... my Vali 2 died a few weeks ago... I sent it for repair (under warranty). I hope to get it back soon. I miss my buddy....


_I'm not trying to tease you @hardpike ... I also have a weird affection to my little toaster. May I ask: what kacked out on it (so I can watch out for it on my unit)?_


----------



## hardpike

No problem at all

I have no clue actually... it worked fine.

I came back after a business trip one week after and just didn't switch on..... very simple.

I have no clue why....I didn't do anything, I didn't try anything weird.

I hope electromod takes care of it..... I am in pain....


----------



## Derrick Swart

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...bable-start-up.701900/page-2933#post-14789164


----------



## hardpike

He is back 
Vali 2 and Hall9000


----------



## hardpike

Detail of the inverted UFO


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Feb 23, 2019)

So, I am starting an organised tube rolling exercise on Vali 2 (connected to Mimby). The purpose is to determine what sound signature I like best, possibly several for different kinds of music. Based on reading, I decided to use 2 sets of headphones: dynamic – AKG K702, and planar magnetic – HE400i, assuming that they will produce different signature with the same tube. I have already seen signs of it (e.g hating EH6922 with K702, but loving it with HE400i), but the HE400i need more use to reach their sound profile, so too early for conclusion.

I have assembled the following test sample of tubes for rolling:

_Type    |    Marked                   |  Brand/Producer             |  Note                                      | Year _

6922    |    1239                       | ?                                     |   Vali 2 stock tube           

6922    |    6N23P                    | Reflektor OTK               

6922    |    6922                        | Electro Harmonix                       

5670    |    396A                      | Western Electric              |   Black plates, square getter  | 1961

5670    |    5670W/2C5V6N3  | GE                     

5670    |   JRC 5670               |  RCA                                                                                 | 1964

6SN7   |    6SN7GT OTK        |  SOVTEK                  

6SN7   |   6SN7GT                 |  Motorola by Tung-Sol    |     "Mouse ears" 

6C8G   |    CRC-6C8-G JAN  |  RCA                   

PCC88 |                                 | Philips Δ Heerlen                         

The process will take – I guess - about half a year. Should there be interest, I can share brief reports once in a while as I go along.

I would be grateful for opinions on the tubes sample and the headphones selected, as I can easily add more, if convinced.


----------



## Mr Trev

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> So, I am starting an organised tube rolling exercise on Vali 2 (connected to Mimby). The purpose is to determine what sound signature I like best, possibly several for different kinds of music. Based on reading, I decided to use 2 sets of headphones: dynamic – AKG K702, and planar magnetic – HE400i, assuming that they will produce different signature with the same tube. I have already seen signs of it (e.g hating EH6922 with K702, but loving it with HE400i), but the HE400i need more use to reach their sound profile, so too early for conclusion.
> 
> I have assembled the following test sample of tubes for rolling:
> 
> ...



Brief reports would be awesome.
For the record, my 400i likes the EI Yugo (Orion Radio brand) 12au7 best - possibly tied with the 6sn7 mouse ear, but the 12au7 only needs one adapter (less hassle, not as fuggly)


----------



## timb5881

Ei tubes are great tubes.  If you can find a 6DJ8 one, you will be in for a treat as well.   I have the Elite version with gold pins now in my Vali2.  The 12AU7 with the nickel plates are to dye for in my opinion.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Feb 23, 2019)

timb5881 said:


> If you can find a 6DJ8 one, you will be in for a treat as well.



this at least would not require yet another adapter. Would it work comparably in terms of sonic qualities to EI12AU7?


----------



## timb5881 (Feb 23, 2019)

Yes, I have both 12AU7 and 6DJ8 Ei tubes, the 12AU7 has nice detail and well flushed out bass.  The 6DJ8 is a bit better to me.


----------



## timb5881

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> So, I am starting an organised tube rolling exercise on Vali 2 (connected to Mimby). The purpose is to determine what sound signature I like best, possibly several for different kinds of music. Based on reading, I decided to use 2 sets of headphones: dynamic – AKG K702, and planar magnetic – HE400i, assuming that they will produce different signature with the same tube. I have already seen signs of it (e.g hating EH6922 with K702, but loving it with HE400i), but the HE400i need more use to reach their sound profile, so too early for conclusion.
> 
> I have assembled the following test sample of tubes for rolling:
> 
> ...



I have a ton of the PCC88 Phillips Heerlen tubes, I like them very much in the Vali2.  That being said, I have a ton of 6SN7 tubes, Sylvania, Tung-Sol (USA), RCA, and off brands like Silvertone, Emerson.   Most of them sound good, some better than others.  You should also try out some 12AU7 tubes with an adapter, so many of them are good and at low prices.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Feb 23, 2019)

timb5881 said:


> I have a ton of the PCC88 Phillips Heerlen tubes, I like them very much in the Vali2.  That being said, I have a ton of 6SN7 tubes, Sylvania, Tung-Sol (USA), RCA, and off brands like Silvertone, Emerson.   Most of them sound good, some better than others.  You should also try out some 12AU7 tubes with an adapter, so many of them are good and at low prices.


What amp are you using them in, just Vali 2 - if you do not mind my asking?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Mr Trev said:


> Brief reports would be awesome.



Will do my best to contain the crap. My goal is not to keep rolling forever, at least not extensively. I want to find a combination of tube(s) and can(s) - if possible, on Vali 2 - that would deliver a sonic signature that I really like. At the same time, I am deeply captured by the music I like, if performed well and recorded and mastered decently. Tonight, I listened through Rossini's Barbiere with LSO under Abbado, with Berganza and Alva, as Master quality recording from Tidal, on HE400i run by WE396A. I was hit by such incredible sound quality: soundstage width and depth, resolution, timbral balance, speed, and overall natural signature, of this sublime performance, so well recorded, that I almost conked out, my tears running freely already at "Ecco, ridente in cielo". You guys talk about tubes here, not music, so I won't share my musical dimension of experiences. I was almost ready to cut the crap and stay with WE396A/HE400i combination, enjoying endless stock of decent recordings of the music I like. However, I will continue, knowing that this is hardly endgame already


----------



## Paladin79

I own quite a few tubes I use in a similar application and the best I have heard to date is a Russian 6sn7 equivalent, the Melz 1578. So far I tried the tube in three amps and rank it up there with RCA grey glass tubes from the 1940’s. You have to know which version to buy but once you land one they are incredible.


----------



## timb5881

I have used the 6SN7 tubes on my power amp, Golden Tube SE40.  12AU7 tubes on my Dared 6, it used almost any 6L6 type in addition to the 12au7 AND 12ax7 tubes.   I also have a Bellari phono preamp that uses a 12AX7 tube.


----------



## timb5881

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Will do my best to contain the crap. My goal is not to keep rolling forever, at least not extensively. I want to find a combination of tube(s) and can(s) - if possible, on Vali 2 - that would deliver a sonic signature that I really like. At the same time, I am deeply captured by the music I like, if performed well and recorded and mastered decently. Tonight, I listened through Rossini's Barbiere with LSO under Abbado, with Berganza and Alva, as Master quality recording from Tidal, on HE400i run by WE396A. I was hit by such incredible sound quality: soundstage width and depth, resolution, timbral balance, speed, and overall natural signature, of this sublime performance, so well recorded, that I almost conked out, my tears running freely already at "Ecco, ridente in cielo". You guys talk about tubes here, not music, so I won't share my musical dimension of experiences. I was almost ready to cut the crap and stay with WE396A/HE400i combination, enjoying endless stock of decent recordings of the music I like. However, I will continue, knowing that this is hardly endgame already


Please do share your music, it will help people decide  on tubes for different types of music, orchestral, chamber, jazz, rock etc.  Some tubes are good in general, never excelling in any one area, where some tubes will boast big brash sound good for rock, maybe not so for string quartet.


----------



## Mr Trev

timb5881 said:


> Ei tubes are great tubes.  If you can find a 6DJ8 one, you will be in for a treat as well.   I have the Elite version with gold pins now in my Vali2.  The 12AU7 with the nickel plates are to dye for in my opinion.



Didn't know there were 6DJ8s, I've only found the 7DJ8 variants. I'll need to keep an eye out. Do you know if they were made on the Telefunken tooling like the 12au7s (probably why they sound so good)


----------



## Mr Trev

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Will do my best to contain the crap. My goal is not to keep rolling forever, at least not extensively. I want to find a combination of tube(s) and can(s) - if possible, on Vali 2 - that would deliver a sonic signature that I really like. At the same time, I am deeply captured by the music I like, if performed well and recorded and mastered decently. Tonight, I listened through Rossini's Barbiere with LSO under Abbado, with Berganza and Alva, as Master quality recording from Tidal, on HE400i run by WE396A. I was hit by such incredible sound quality: soundstage width and depth, resolution, timbral balance, speed, and overall natural signature, of this sublime performance, so well recorded, that I almost conked out, my tears running freely already at "Ecco, ridente in cielo". You guys talk about tubes here, not music, so I won't share my musical dimension of experiences. I was almost ready to cut the crap and stay with WE396A/HE400i combination, enjoying endless stock of decent recordings of the music I like. However, I will continue, knowing that this is hardly endgame already



"My goal is not to keep rolling forever". That's adorable. You're in it for the long haul now

That WE396A isn't a bad place to end from what I've read. Plenty of fans for that family of tubes. Haven't heard that particular one myself, but I have a Reflektor 6n3p that's pretty darn good. Even my GE5670 has settled down nicely now that is has some hours on it


----------



## nicholars (Feb 24, 2019)

Is there such a thing as a tube that would have a similar effect to EQ'ing the bass?

For example a tube I could put in a Vali 2 that would increase the bass around 10-60hz while still having good quality bass like you get on solid state amps?

Also would there be an option that also has smooth treble as well?

I have never used tubes, due to reading that they do not have the bass quality compared to solid state, also people saying they can potentially damage headphones, maybe someone could advise me.


----------



## timb5881

Mr Trev said:


> Didn't know there were 6DJ8s, I've only found the 7DJ8 variants. I'll need to keep an eye out. Do you know if they were made on the Telefunken tooling like the 12au7s (probably why they sound so good)


There some 6DJ8 Ei tubes around.  From my understanding, yes they were made on Telefunken tooling.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Feb 24, 2019)

Mr Trev said:


> Didn't know there were 6DJ8s, I've only found the 7DJ8 variants. I'll need to keep an eye out. Do you know if they were made on the Telefunken tooling like the 12au7s (probably why they sound so good)


On their website, the EI wrote that they had both Telefunken and Philips technology. They also have a list of current products there. Just keep in mind that they have discontinued many products years ago. As for 6DJ8 made by EI, tubedoctor sells them.


----------



## Guidostrunk

If anyone is interested in rolling 6C8G tubes. Here's a steal of a price on a Tung-sol. The best 6C8G of the bunch imo. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/173788888639


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Feb 24, 2019)

Guidostrunk said:


> If anyone is interested in rolling 6C8G tubes. Here's a steal of a price on a Tung-sol. The best 6C8G of the bunch imo. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/173788888639


I have one from RCA already, thanks.


----------



## tim0chan

Long time lurker in the thread here, any recommendation for tubes below usd20 and without requiring adapters? Using this with hd650 and iems so don't want something way too warm. I'm willing to try anything else XD


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Feb 25, 2019)

tim0chan said:


> Long time lurker in the thread here, any recommendation for tubes below usd20 and without requiring adapters? Using this with hd650 and iems so don't want something way too warm. I'm willing to try anything else XD


Except occasional bargains, Electro Harmonix 6922 and Reflektor 6N23P - both clear tubes, especially EH, which is also sonically bright, usually can be found below $20. Never had any Senns, though, would not be 100% sure, how they sound on them.


----------



## timb5881

Check on eBay,  you can find 6922 and 6DJ8 tube bargains.  JJ 6922 is under $20, and I have seen Sino 6922 tubes on eBay under $20.  Another to consider is the 7DJ8 tubes from Phillips (and various other names like Ei, Mullard etc).   The 7DJ8 is the same as a 6DJ8 but with a 7 volt heater filament compared to the 6DJ8 tubes 6.3 volts.  I use the 7DJ8 tubes with no ill effects and they sound nice to me.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

nicholars said:


> Is there such a thing as a tube that would have a similar effect to EQ'ing the bass?
> 
> For example a tube I could put in a Vali 2 that would increase the bass around 10-60hz while still having good quality bass like you get on solid state amps?
> 
> ...


Well, I have just put Philips PCC88 4.1 (7v heater) into Vali 2, and it brings out the bass on AKG K702 (which is generally seen as bass-light), like no other tube before. The trebble is smooth, but so far resolution of complex higher mids have been slightly better on other tubes. But that's just out odf the box, with an hour of heating, so remains to be seen.


----------



## Mr Trev

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> On their website, the EI wrote that they had both Telefunken and Philips technology. They also have a list of current products there. Just keep in mind that they have discontinued many products years ago. As for 6DJ8 made by EI, tubedoctor sells them.



Huh, I didn't know EI was still producing tubes. My 12au7 is NOS from the days when Yugoslavia was still a thing.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Mr Trev said:


> Didn't know there were 6DJ8s, I've only found the 7DJ8 variants. I'll need to keep an eye out. Do you know if they were made on the Telefunken tooling like the 12au7s (probably why they sound so good)


Just bought an EI 6DJ8 on an ebay auction for less that $12, including US shipping. WIll report how it sounds.


----------



## RogueWolfe

Does anyone have a good seller recommendation in the EU for the socket savers / 6sn7 adapters? Thanks!


----------



## Guidostrunk

https://www.tubemonger.com/NOVIB_Socket_Saver_1960s_NOS_British_McMurdo_B9A_p/novib-mcmurdo.htm


RogueWolfe said:


> Does anyone have a good seller recommendation in the EU for the socket savers / 6sn7 adapters? Thanks!


----------



## Guidostrunk

Sorry. They're not in the EU.


----------



## HellooooThar

nicholars said:


> Is there such a thing as a tube that would have a similar effect to EQ'ing the bass?
> 
> For example a tube I could put in a Vali 2 that would increase the bass around 10-60hz while still having good quality bass like you get on solid state amps?
> 
> ...



Um...yes and no. It is hard to give exact numbers for what the exact effect of a tube will be. It often more affects the feel of the bass -- say the Amperex Holland "bugle boy" 1958s I have are bigger, with more size and warmth in the low end. The 7DJ8 Matsu's I have are much more tame in this respect, but will still thump like crazy.


----------



## HellooooThar

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Just bought an EI 6DJ8 on an ebay auction for less that $12, including US shipping. WIll report how it sounds.



Given that you only need one, I would say you might want to give the the National Matsuschita 7DJ8 a try. I got mine from Upscale because they were a Christmas present, but for what it is worth I LOVE them on the Lyr (now my main amp) with the 400I.


----------



## RogueWolfe

Guidostrunk said:


> Sorry. They're not in the EU.


No worries - thanks anyway. I ordered on tube depot today - their shipping with ups is actually pretty decent...


----------



## Grado Diesel

Hey, you guys with Sennheiser HD650s/HD6XX’s, what tubes have you found to be a great match? I’m bouncing between Tung -Sol 6SN7 mouse ears and a Sylvania Chrome dome. The chrome dome definitely seems to bring up the highs a little in these dark cans.


----------



## Keno18

Grado Diesel said:


> Hey, you guys with Sennheiser HD650s/HD6XX’s, what tubes have you found to be a great match? I’m bouncing between Tung -Sol 6SN7 mouse ears and a Sylvania Chrome dome. The chrome dome definitely seems to bring up the highs a little in these dark cans.


Mouse ears.


----------



## Robert Padgett (Mar 2, 2019)

Grado Diesel said:


> Hey, you guys with Sennheiser HD650s/HD6XX’s, what tubes have you found to be a great match? I’m bouncing between Tung -Sol 6SN7 mouse ears and a Sylvania Chrome dome. The chrome dome definitely seems to bring up the highs a little in these dark cans.


I have used the following tubes since the arrival of my new 6XX Sennheisers: Telefunken E88CC (New Prod). JJ-Electronics 6SN7 (New Prod) Vintage Tung-sol (1957 -round mica). Sovtek 6H8C (1990 New Prod), and Sylvania (the 1950s) 6J5s in a dual adapter.  By far the Sylvania Dual tubes have the best sounding Music, followed closely by the Telefunken and JJ new tubes, which are mellowing with play time. But, like the Mouse-ears, there is a very rich tonality with the US Made Tung-Sol of the 1950s be experienced. My three tubes were NOS and under $10 each, but they are worth it unless you happen upon mouse-ears...


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Robert Padgett said:


> I have used the following tubes since the arrival of my new 6XX Sennheisers: Telefunken E88CC (New Prod). JJ-Electronics 6SN7 (New Prod) Vintage Tung-sol (1957 -round mica). Sovtek 6H8C (1990 New Prod), and Sylvania (the 1950s) 6J5s in a dual adapter.  By far the Sylvania Dual tubes have the best sounding Music, followed closely by the Telefunken and JJ new tubes, which are mellowing with play time. But, like the Mouse-ears, there is a very rich tonality with the US Made Tung-Sol of the 1950s be experienced. My three tubes were NOS and under $10 each, but they are worth it unless you happen upon mouse-ears...


Look like Melz tubes in the pic, what?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Look like Melz tubes in the pic, what?



With the round plates those would most likely be 6J5's. TungSols or Sylvies, Robert?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> With the round plates those would most likely be 6J5's. TungSols or Sylvies, Robert?


I am just being stupid. He wrote


Robert Padgett said:


> Sylvania (the 1950s) 6J5s in a dual adapter.  By far the Sylvania Dual tubes have the best sounding Music


----------



## Guidostrunk

Does anyone know the combined gain factor of the 6J5? 
6922=33ish
12at7=60ish
6J5=?


----------



## bcowen

Guidostrunk said:


> Does anyone know the combined gain factor of the 6J5?
> 6922=33ish
> 12at7=60ish
> 6J5=?



20 per tube, so I guess 40 in stereo?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I am just being stupid. He wrote



Well that makes two of us then. I had to ask which manufacturer.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Thanks B!


bcowen said:


> 20 per tube, so I guess 40 in stereo?


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> With the round plates those would most likely be 6J5's. TungSols or Sylvies, Robert?



I am not in the Melz Cult, and this is a mixed couple, both three holes but one is black and the other gray, $14 for the pair.



bcowen said:


> Well that makes two of us then. I had to ask which manufacturer.



It's OK because they sound like they should be more expensive


----------



## Paladin79

I have some of the Loktal replacements for the 6j5's on the way, 7A4's. I might as well try other examples.  Bill you will have to try the Melz sometime, I do believe there is a reason they sell out quickly.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> ...one is black and the other gray....



So then the center fill is like...dark gray?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have some of the Loktal replacements for the 6j5's on the way, 7A4's. I might as well try other examples.  Bill you will have to try the Melz sometime, I do believe there is a reason they sell out quickly.



Crap.  The last time you recommended something to me I ended up with about 50 of them.  

To which Melz do you refer?  Assuming 6N8S, but holey plate?  Bottles with 1578 printing? Any particular vintage?


----------



## Paladin79

I bought a 1986 and have a 1983 on the way.  Holey plate, 1578. Four others are awaiting them so soon there will be more opinions.


----------



## timb5881

Guidostrunk said:


> Thanks B!


The mu on the 6j5 is 20, the same as a 12au7, 6sn7 or 6dj8


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> So then the center fill is like...dark gray?


nope, two different Sylvania tubes, one is a JAN VT940 and the other is a Sylvania branded as a Forton, but they were sold as a tightly matched pair, and quite honestly, I have swapped left and right and cannot hear any delta, so for $14/pair I am not complaining. Of the pairs, these are the best sounding. I am anxious to hear metal cans NIB, I have heard both positive and mixed reviews. On my scale of : "Is it better sounding than the $12 Sovtek 6H8C?" a pretty low bar...


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Mar 3, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I have some of the Loktal replacements for the 6j5's on the way, 7A4's. I might as well try other examples.  Bill you will have to try the Melz sometime, I do believe there is a reason they sell out quickly.


I do not know. When you mentioned them, I ran to Russian online ads looking for them. Sure enough, one can buy different types from1950ties for less than $20. Then I looked at the Russian audiophile forums, and they are laughing at us for being so keen on MELZ. There seems to be a consensus among the Russian audiophiles there that RCA and Sylvania are better, even if slightly, but better. Certainly, all ears are different. They say 1579 (6SL7) are the best. I am simply not sure if I want to go through all the trouble asking someone in Moscow to buy some and send them to me...  And buy yet another adapter (or would 6SN7 adapter work?)


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I do not know. When you mentioned them, I ran to Russian online ads looking for them. Sure enough, one can buy different types from1950ties for less than $20. Then I looked at the Russian audiophile forums, and they are laughing at us for being so keen on MELZ. There seems to be a consensus among the Russian audiophiles there that RCA and Sylvania are better, even if slightly, but better. Certainly, all ears are different. They say 1579 (6SL7) are the best. I am simply not sure if I want to go through all the trouble asking someone in Moscow to buy some and send them to me...  And buy yet another adapter (or would 6SN7 adapter work?)



The 'best' is always the stuff that's hardest to get.  

The pinout on the 6SN7 and 6SL7 are the same so the same adapter will work, but the 6SL7 has 3x the gain of the 6SN7. Whether this will work in the Vali (or Lyr) is unknown to me. I don't see any risk of damaging anything (the 6SL7 has half the heater current of the 6SN7), but it may not sound very good. I'd certainly try buying a cheap 6SL7 first to test it out.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 3, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I do not know. When you mentioned them, I ran to Russian online ads looking for them. Sure enough, one can buy different types from1950ties for less than $20. Then I looked at the Russian audiophile forums, and they are laughing at us for being so keen on MELZ. There seems to be a consensus among the Russian audiophiles there that RCA and Sylvania are better, even if slightly, but better. Certainly, all ears are different. They say 1579 (6SL7) are the best. I am simply not sure if I want to go through all the trouble asking someone in Moscow to buy some and send them to me...  And buy yet another adapter (or would 6SN7 adapter work?)



Melz is like any other company, some tubes are sought after more than others. I have heard the 1578's and own what are considered to be top RCA, Tung Sol, and Sylvania tubes so I am certainly familiar with those as well and I am impressed with the Melz I heard. Now if those folks can get you the tubes stamped 1578 with the holes in the plates for $20 or less and you want to double your money, get with me and we will talk. Soon several friends will have them and their opinion may be different than mine but we will see.

I would rate the sound with a grey glass 1942 RCA I like very well, and I like the highs a bit better on the Melz. Along with 6sn7s, I have single triode 6j5's (five sets), and 7N7's (Loktals). I do have several tube types with which to do comparisons.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Mar 3, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> the tubes stamped 1578 with the holes in the plates for $20 or less



Are you having in mind smth like these?


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 3, 2019)

those are some of the older ones. This is a NOS version I just got that I am trying out.  I am serious about buying more if you can get them, PM me and we can talk.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> those are some of the older ones. This is a NOS version I just got that I am trying out.  I am serious about buying more if you can get them, PM me and we can talk.


Looks precisely the same to me. OK, I will do a search - most likely they are to be found in Ukraine, and once found, I will PM you. It may take time, though...


----------



## Paladin79

Sounds great. Right now they have a pretty inflated price and they may well be they sell for under $20 in Russia. My seller paid shipping as well as Ebay fees and those drove up the price as well. I am always curious when I hear about such tubes and if you can locate some from folks you trust I will certainly try to make it worth your time and trouble.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Sounds great. Right now they have a pretty inflated price and they may well be they sell for under $20 in Russia. My seller paid shipping as well as Ebay fees and those drove up the price as well. I am always curious when I hear about such tubes and if you can locate some from folks you trust I will certainly try to make it worth your time and trouble.



The price will skyrocket if @Ripper2860 catches wind of this and goes into psycho hoard mode. You guys should take this to PM and just let me know when I can have some.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper already bought two, as have I, and several others who shall remain nameless. I did not have one for a day before the sharks began a feeding frenzy.


----------



## Ripper2860

Too late.  I already have 2 on the way...


----------



## Paladin79

Bill was probably down in his tube cave ogling his stash of tubes and not paying attention.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill was probably down in his tube cave ogling his stash of tubes and not paying attention.



Well crap.  Guess I really didn't want one anyway.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Sounds great. Right now they have a pretty inflated price and they may well be they sell for under $20 in Russia. My seller paid shipping as well as Ebay fees and those drove up the price as well. I am always curious when I hear about such tubes and if you can locate some from folks you trust I will certainly try to make it worth your time and trouble.


What one has to keep in mind is that buying from Eastern European sellers is a hassle with payment, and also a risk. I recently bought 2 Reflektor 6N23P from Bulgaria on ebay, and one of them only worked a couple of hours - but they were not cheap. The MELZ 6N8S (6SN7 ; ECC82) with round holes seem to have disappeared from Russia and Ukraine on a quick look; theones with different plates with oval holes still around. I have checked today, MELZ 6SL7 (ECC35) still around, and prices not inflated.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> What one has to keep in mind is that buying from Eastern European sellers is a hassle with payment, and also a risk. I recently bought 2 Reflektor 6N23P from Bulgaria on ebay, and one of them only worked a couple of hours - but they were not cheap. The MELZ 6N8S (6SN7 ; ECC82) with round holes seem to have disappeared from Russia and Ukraine on a quick look; theones with different plates with oval holes still around. I have checked today, MELZ 6SL7 (ECC35) still around, and prices not inflated.



Yes I started to do business with some folks there and was told that I needed to figure on losing about 10% that was needed for bribes. Another factor is the dollar value has been sliding there since 2016 so what might have been $20 at one point may not sell for that much now.  I am not sure I can use 6SL7's myself.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well crap.  Guess I really didn't want one anyway.



In about another week you will be able to get multiple opinions on them. They will either love them or a lynch party may form because I may have influenced them a bit with my opinions.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> In about another week you will be able to get multiple opinions on them. They will either love them or a lynch party may form because I may have influenced them a bit with my opinions.



A lynch mob? No way.  If anybody gets all whiney about it, just remind them that your hearing is superior and they're obviously just a @Ripper2860 wanker.

That's what I do.


----------



## Ripper2860

@bcowen -- Got it!!   RX-8 not 7 ...   

Check your PM, dingle-berry.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen -- Got it!!   RX-8 not 7 ...
> 
> Check your PM, dingle-berry.



That's *Mr.* DingleBerry to you, pal.


----------



## RogueWolfe

Finally got my 6SN7 Adapter today. Been listening for an hour now with a vintage Tung Sol 6SN7 "Mouse Ear". Wow. Thanks to whoever tried this first and gave the tipp. I'll take some time to evaluate but initial impressions are great.


----------



## Keno18

RogueWolfe said:


> Finally got my 6SN7 Adapter today. Been listening for an hour now with a vintage Tung Sol 6SN7 "Mouse Ear". Wow. Thanks to whoever tried this first and gave the tipp. I'll take some time to evaluate but initial impressions are great.


Another satisfied customer.


----------



## RogueWolfe

Indeed! Funny thing is I even like the Vali2 as Linestage more with the 6SN7. Idk why but it's definitly nicer with the Tung Sol than with the Electro Harmonix 6CG7. I once listened to a DIY Tube Pre that was based on 6SN7 - wonderfull.


----------



## Robert Padgett

RogueWolfe said:


> Finally got my 6SN7 Adapter today. Been listening for an hour now with a vintage Tung Sol 6SN7 "Mouse Ear". Wow. Thanks to whoever tried this first and gave the tip. I'll take some time to evaluate but initial impressions are great.


I found another Mouse-ears and I am enjoying it immensely. 
@Keno18, have you ever seen a Mouse-ears with a three-hole black plate instead of gray plates with two holes? 
Just curious as I have have found no reference to this type on the internet.


----------



## Keno18

Robert Padgett said:


> I found another Mouse-ears and I am enjoying it immensely.
> @Keno18, have you ever seen a Mouse-ears with a three-hole black plate instead of gray plates with two holes?
> Just curious as I have have found no reference to this type on the internet.


No, I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. I checked my other tubes, they're all gray plates with two holes. I wonder if the earlier versions were all black plates. The earliest I have is '52.


----------



## Robert Padgett (Mar 14, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> No, I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. I checked my other tubes, they're all gray plates with two holes. I wonder if the earlier versions were all black plates. The earliest I have is '52.


This one was date code 8/51, and I think it may be a rare version, maybe a prototype Tung-Sol made, before settling on the two-hole gray plates. It has a tremendous bass slam, often associated with Sylvania "Bad Boy" tubes. For me, it is just a good sounding tube that sounds better than the one I broke...


----------



## Keno18

Robert Padgett said:


> This one was date code 8/51, and I think it may be a rare version, maybe a prototype Tung-Sol made, before settling on the two-hole gray plates. It has a tremendous bass slam, often associated with Sylvania "Bad Boy" tubes. For me, it is just a good sounding tube that sounds better than the one I broke...


It seems like the earlier the tube the better the sound. Treat that one well.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> For me, it is just a good sounding tube that sounds better than the one I broke...



I'm guessing most any tube would sound better than the broken one.

Maybe even a GE.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 25, 2019)

Tube type DAC feeding a Vali 2 with a quad of Sylvania 6j5's. Some serious tube sound. Three hole black plate bottom getter Sylvies are called Bad Boys, I have termed these....Naughty Girls, same setup only bottom D getters.

Listening preferences, Cowboy Junkies, Greg Brown, and occasionally Townes Van Zandt....the tubes should match the music. Crosstalk is nearly non-existent.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Tube type DAC feeding a Vali 2 with a quad of Sylvania 6j5's. Some serious tube sound. Three hole black plate bottom getter Sylvies are called Bad Boys, I have termed these....Naughty Girls, same setup only bottom D getters.
> 
> Listening preferences, Cowboy Junkies, Greg Brown, and occasionally Townes Van Zandt....the tubes should match the music. Crosstalk is nearly non-existent.



Naughty Girls?  LOL!

More like Miscreant Sluts.


----------



## HellooooThar

For anyone either a. fogretful or b. new to this whole thing, DO NOT plug things like PCs, wall warts etc. in to the same outlet/power strip as your amp. My silly self left my Lyr 2 plugged in to the same power strip as my gaming computer. And I was wondering where all the noise came from


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 25, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Naughty Girls?  LOL!
> 
> More like Miscreant Sluts.



LOL, I am so surprised that you even knew the word "miscreant" that I can barely respond. The bass slam is remarkable but the recovery is not what I hoped for so it takes some work to match the music to these single triodes. 

Soon I will try this with 7A4 loktals, four of them, I think I learned about them from some guy named Bill. I believe they should be called "half Frankies."


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LOL, I am so surprised that you even knew the word "miscreant" that I can barely respond.



ROFL!  I learned that word shortly after first stumbling across @Ripper2860 's posts.  



Paladin79 said:


> Soon I will try this with 7A4 loktals, four of them, I think I learned about them from some guy named Bill. I believe they should be called "half Frankies."



I'm innocent on the 7A4's.  Even had to look it up.  Must have been some other cheapskate.    A true Frankenminion!  Did you come across a dual loctal adapter, or are you....gasp.....triple adapting?


----------



## Paladin79

I have a dual loktal adapter on the way, tubes are sitting here waiting. 7A4 is the loktal version of the 6j5. They exist, so I must try them. They are not super expensive. Separation on the single triodes is quite good but it is hard to get just the right sound stage without some work. Loktal to octal is barely adapting so that does not count. I will be building some of my own sockets soon so I do not have to wait for them. I found some industrial 7A4's new in the box that should work nicely. Now if they only made a tall boy in this version, you would probably trade your 300B's for them lol.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Paladin79 said:


> Tube type DAC feeding a Vali 2 with a quad of Sylvania 6j5's. Some serious tube sound. Three hole black plate bottom getter Sylvies are called Bad Boys, I have termed these....Naughty Girls, same setup only bottom D getters.
> 
> Listening preferences, Cowboy Junkies, Greg Brown, and occasionally Townes Van Zandt....the tubes should match the music. Crosstalk is nearly non-existent.


What’s your reason for this madness?   I’ve never seen two amps plugged in series. _When we got our first HDMI equiped TV, we strung up different AV components... and witnessed distorted video output. Is there an additive effect (each tube set modifies a different frequency range)? Fascinating...._


----------



## Paladin79

ScubaMan2017 said:


> What’s your reason for this madness?   I’ve never seen two amps plugged in series. _When we got our first HDMI equiped TV, we strung up different AV components... and witnessed distorted video output. Is there an additive effect (each tube set modifies a different frequency range)? Fascinating...._




Perhaps there is madness to my method.
The first device is a DAC/Amp with a pre-amp output, no matter what you do, you need a source for the Vali 2, so it is the source. Now as far as the tubes, both devices have the native tube of a 6922 so I generally use an adapter to run 6sn7's in their place. I took that one step farther, a 6sn7 uses twin triodes that have to be shielded from each other to prevent or diminish cross talk. 6J5's are single triodes that afford better separation than two triodes built into the same tube. I suppose they preceded the 6sn7 but they are a great replacement. The only problem is finding 6j5's that have some of the great sound of some of the incredible 6sn7 variations (Melz, Hytron CBS, Foton, Tung Sol, Sylvania bad boys, etc.) My favorite are some Sylvanias that you see here. This setup offers some incredible bass and mids, the highs are a little lacking but not too bad. The separate triodes give an effect that is comparable to binaural on standard recordings, once again in my opinion.
Needless to say, this is a very tubey sound but a sound I prefer with ZZ Top, Cowboy Junkies, et alia.


There is no distortion here, the pre-amp out is a fixed value. Occasionally if you have a working volume control on a first device, it can control the sound of the second. Normally you keep the first turned down if this happens so as to not overdrive the second, I believe this is called staging.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Paladin79 said:


> .....{snip}...... I believe this is called staging.


Behold, the _*leaning tower of Vali... with the Wreck-It-Ralph dials... and the tastefully applied LED covers.*_..
 
Once the return policy expires, I'll hazard an adapter-to-socket-saver-copper clip job & some O-rings. Thank you _tube depot dot com_.


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Behold, the _*leaning tower of Vali... with the Wreck-It-Ralph dials... and the tastefully applied LED covers.*_..
> 
> Once the return policy expires, I'll hazard an adapter-to-socket-saver-copper clip job & some O-rings. Thank you _tube depot dot com_.



And you're questioning @Paladin79 's madness?  ROFL!

I think you need bigger knobs.....


----------



## Mr Trev

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Behold, the _*leaning tower of Vali... with the Wreck-It-Ralph dials... and the tastefully applied LED covers.*_..
> 
> Once the return policy expires, I'll hazard an adapter-to-socket-saver-copper clip job & some O-rings. Thank you _tube depot dot com_.



That's something I still need to get around to, replacing the volume knob. Something a little grippier.

On another front, I finally joined the ranks of cleartop owners. Picked up a 6cg7 cleartop, gotta say I'm liking it so far. Seems to have all the best traits of both the 6sn7 and 12au7 - without having to use fuggly adapters (no offense Scubaman). The 6cg7 possibly has a clarity to it that allows the instruments to individually stand out better than the other tubes, but considering I have the memory retention of a stoned goldfish, I'm probably not qualified for A-B comparisons.


----------



## Paladin79

Drat, that is the second time I heard about the 6CG7. I may have to check them out once I run out of other ideas for 6sn7 variations.


----------



## Keno18

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Behold, the _*leaning tower of Vali... with the Wreck-It-Ralph dials... and the tastefully applied LED covers.*_..
> 
> Once the return policy expires, I'll hazard an adapter-to-socket-saver-copper clip job & some O-rings. Thank you _tube depot dot com_.


You should hang a King Kong doll off the top of the tube.


----------



## Keno18

Definition of ironic: I put the fx audio preamp with 2 GE JAN 5654Ws ahead of the Magni 3 and got the sound of the Vali 2 with the mouse ears. Go figure.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Drat, that is the second time I heard about the 6CG7. I may have to check them out once I run out of other ideas for 6sn7 variations.



There's a few variations of those too.  A 6SN7 after 6 months on Weight Watchers.


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> Definition of ironic: I put the fx audio preamp with 2 GE JAN 5654Ws ahead of the Magni 3 and got the sound of the Vali 2 with the mouse ears. Go figure.



Your fx audio preamp now officially hates you for sticking GE's in it.


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> Your fx audio preamp now officially hates you for sticking GE's in it.


I know, I tried Sylvanias but the GES are closer. More irony?


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> I know, I tried Sylvanias but the GES are closer. More irony?



Your headphones must be broken.


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> Your headphones must be broken.


No, rather I think I am.


----------



## Paladin79

Stay with the GE's @Keno18  if for no other reason than to annoy @bcowen. Does the 6CG7 require any kind of adapter at all or do you plug it into the Vali directly?


----------



## Keno18

Paladin79 said:


> Stay with the GE's @Keno18  if for no other reason than to annoy @bcowen. Does the 6CG7 require any kind of adapter at all or do you plug it into the Vali directly?


They plug in directly. Which ones are you looking at? I ask because I wasn't happy with the ones I tried.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Stay with the GE's @Keno18  if for no other reason than to annoy @bcowen. Does the 6CG7 require any kind of adapter at all or do you plug it into the Vali directly?



No adapter required, that's the beauty. Basically they're a 9 pin 6sn7.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> They plug in directly. Which ones are you looking at? I ask because I wasn't happy with the ones I tried.



Which ones did you try? I have no complaints with the cleartop. Might even need to try some others now…


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 27, 2019)

Very cool.

I have not looked at any yet, I may already own some, I will have to look around my shop this weekend. I am also in the middle of deciding on some tubes for a 300B amp I am building and I have a few driver choices. It would be nice to test some I have not tried in the Vali before making a final decision. I have used 12Au7's, 6922's, etc.

I was answering a previous post as far as which ones have I looked at.


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> Which ones did you try? I have no complaints with the cleartop. Might even need to try some others now…


Clear tops I heard are good, I tried a vintage Zenith and a new production EH.


----------



## Paladin79

After three days of listening, twin 6J5's in a Vali 2 fed by two more in a tube DAC are the most impressive thing I have heard to date for bass and mids. 6sn7 Melz is more impressive overall.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> After three days of listening, twin 6J5's in a Vali 2 fed by two more in a tube DAC are the most impressive thing I have heard to date for bass and mids. 6sn7 Melz is more impressive overall.



My Melz twins arrived yesterday after spending a week in the NY Post Office (as usual).  Have them cooking now...should be ready to listen to this weekend. They're the first tubes I've bought in so long I can't even remember. Weeks for sure, maybe even a month.  Eternity, like.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 27, 2019)

bcowen said:


> My Melz twins arrived yesterday after spending a week in the NY Post Office (as usual).  Have them cooking now...should be ready to listen to this weekend. They're the first tubes I've bought in so long I can't even remember. Weeks for sure, maybe even a month.  Eternity, like.



So far I know nine friends who got them, eight rave about them and one likes them as best I can tell. If you do not find me any other way, PM me what you think. They do not require a lot of burn in IMHO and I believe Ripper would agree or he just said it to humor me.  Oops I should not say 6sn7 Melz, 6sn7 equivalent. 6H8C or 1578.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> After three days of listening, twin 6J5's in a Vali 2 fed by two more in a tube DAC are the most impressive thing I have heard to date for bass and mids. 6sn7 Melz is more impressive overall.


I agree @Paladin79--the dual Sylvania into a Vali 2 is a very impressive improvement. I was listening last night, and the bass slam is very present, but the rest is also very sweet. Of the NOS metal cans, and the wicked-old ST-types, the two pair of Sylvania tubes are by far the best!  I am not sure if they are "Naughty" but they sure misbehave well


----------



## bcowen

Has anyone run across a Vali adapter for dual 1610's?  I really want to try a pair of these:


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Has anyone run across a Vali adapter for dual 1610's?  I really want to try a pair of these:


I am sure some one could fabricate, if they had the pin-outs   I hear they have a very solid Bass but the mids are rather enemic...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Has anyone run across a Vali adapter for dual 1610's?  I really want to try a pair of these:



I could make you one but then everybody would want one and I might upset the balance of the universe. The earth would no longer be spinning in greased grooves.


----------



## Ripper2860

Wow!!  @bcowen actually has special 'tube fondling' gloves.  Way to go, Bill!


----------



## Paladin79

Bill should be reporting back shortly on the Melz tubes he just received. That should be interesting!


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> Wow!!  @bcowen actually has special 'tube fondling' gloves.  Way to go, Bill!





"Mister Jackson, Mister Michael Jackson, you have left something behind..."


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 28, 2019)

@bcowen has a pretty solid and unwavering process of fondling new tubes for one week before listening to them.  He says it establishes a bond and makes the tube more subservient and eager to please.  I think there are deeper / darker issues at work here, but what a man does with his tubes in the privacy of his home...

Anyhow - he stated he will begin listening over the weekend and have the tubes ready to ship to @Paladin79 and me on Monday!


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Bill has a pretty solid and unwaivering process of fondling new tubes for one week before listening to them.  He says it establishes a bond and makes the tube more subservient and eager to please.  I think there are deeper/ darker issues at work here, but what a man dies with his tubes in the privacy of his home...
> 
> Anyhow - he stated he will begin listening over the weekend and have the tubes ready to ship to @Paladin79 and me on Monday!



If he hates them we should get a discount. They will probably be traumatized by his tube rituals. I am just glad they are tubes and not kittens or baby ducks, he probably just stares at them for hours.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Robert Padgett said:


> I agree @Paladin79--the dual Sylvania into a Vali 2 is a very impressive improvement. I was listening last night, and the bass slam is very present, but the rest is also very sweet. Of the NOS metal cans, and the wicked-old ST-types, the two pair of Sylvania tubes are by far the best!  I am not sure if they are "Naughty" but they sure misbehave well


 apologies for my ignorance: metal cans are metal base cans or metal body cans?


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> apologies for my ignorance: metal cans are metal base cans or metal body cans?



In this case, the 'metal cans' are the metal 6J5 tubes, typically made by RCA or Sylvania and are flat black little 'oil can' shaped tubes. They are fine sounding tubes, not microphonic, but the Glass Tube Sylvanias are better sounding on the Vali 2.

Since the headphones already had their attorney call me about their trademark "cans", I should just say Metal tubes.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Robert Padgett said:


> In this case, the 'metal cans' are the metal 6J5 tubes, typically made by RCA or Sylvania and are flat black little 'oil can' shaped tubes. They are fine sounding tubes, not microphonic, but the Glass Tube Sylvanias are better sounding on the Vali 2.
> 
> Since the headphones already had their attorney call me about their trademark "cans", I should just say Metal tubes.


Thank you, got thoroughly confused. Tubes, of course.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I could make you one but then everybody would want one and I might upset the balance of the universe. The earth would no longer be spinning in greased grooves.



Who cares what everybody else wants. Just make one for me. I'll tell everyone the tube sucks so you won't have to make more. 

The 1610 pulls 3.8 amps (that's amps, not milliamps) of heater current. Think that will pose any problems for the Vali2?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Wow!!  @bcowen actually has special 'tube fondling' gloves.  Way to go, Bill!



That's sooooooo obviously _not_ a tube fondling glove. Tube fondling gloves are ribbed for pleasure.  Duh.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Who cares what everybody else wants. Just make one for me. I'll tell everyone the tube sucks so you won't have to make more.
> 
> The 1610 pulls 3.8 amps (that's amps, not milliamps) of heater current. Think that will pose any problems for the Vali2?



amps, milliamps... practically the same thing only different.  I am not sure I could gut a Vali and cram enough parts inside the case to make it feasible.

I just got a Jan 6sn7gt bottom d getter RCA and the gentleman sent me an amazing tube as a freebee, I must be living right. I need to give this holy grail of a tube two weeks burn in and another month laying next to my favorite amp before I try it though. I will be sure and report back to you Bill, I hesitate telling you what it is so you do not jump in your Mazda and make the long drive over here foregoing Tarheal basketball in the process. I will try to get a photo but the light shining off this golden chalice may be too much for my simple camera skills.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> amps, milliamps... practically the same thing only different.  I am not sure I could gut a Vali and cram enough parts inside the case to make it feasible.
> 
> I just got a Jan 6sn7gt bottom d getter RCA and the gentleman sent me an amazing tube as a freebee, I must be living right. I need to give this holy grail of a tube two weeks burn in and another month laying next to my favorite amp before I try it though. I will be sure and report back to you Bill, I hesitate telling you what it is so you do not jump in your Mazda and make the long drive over here foregoing Tarheal basketball in the process. I will try to get a photo but the light shining off this golden chalice may be too much for my simple camera skills.



Man you won't even give me time to listen to the Melz before telling me you now have something better. I think I'm going to switch to solid state and get out of this tube rat race.





Bwahahahaha…..yeah, right.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am not sure I could gut a Vali and cram enough parts inside the case to make it feasible.



I was thinking an external power supply for the heaters with a high quality umbilical.  Then just a few extra parts in the Vali's case so it can shoot 600v to the plates. How hard can _that_ be?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I was thinking an external power supply for the heaters with a high quality umbilical.  Then just a few extra parts in the Vali's case so it can shoot 600v to the plates. How hard can _that_ be?



Ok I will get to work on the umbilical, this should be the same as a Vali 2 only bigger I guess. I just need to hang out near junkyards and hope copper thieves are still stealing power lines or old copper pipes out of buildings so can get a cheap source on needed parts. 

Oh and that tube I got is safely asleep in a Pelican case just for it.  I have owned black glass RCA's but this tube is one that belongs in the Smithsonian inside a one inch thick glass case with thermal sensors and infrared detectors. I have some tubes but nothing like this, I may need to buy a new amplifier, I am not sure anything I own is worthy, probably new headphones as well. Oops basketball is on, see you in a month or two Bill.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I will get to work on the umbilical, this should be the same as a Vali 2 only bigger I guess. I just need to hang out near junkyards and hope copper thieves are still stealing power lines or old copper pipes out of buildings so can get a cheap source on needed parts.



You're kidding me, right?  Long crystal six-9's OFC is the _minimum_ acceptable.  Oh, and foamed PTFE insulation of course (but that shouldn't even need to be said). Doubt that's available at your local junkyard. What kind of operation are you runnin' here?   



Paladin79 said:


> Oh and that tube I got is safely asleep in a Pelican case just for it.  I have owned black glass RCA's but this tube is one that belongs in the Smithsonian inside a one inch thick glass case with thermal sensors and infrared detectors.



You might just be worse than me. Most would think that impossible...


----------



## ScubaMan2017 (Mar 29, 2019)

Mr Trev said:


> No adapter required, that's the beauty. Basically they're a 9 pin 6sn7.


Interesting, @Mr Trev ... Once I get the hang of rolling, I might try it out.  I'm getting my first taste of a larger 6SN7 tube (JJ Electronics, Slovakia) in my little toaster. It's doing SOMETHING to the SQ. I'm listening to the Doobie Brothers (_Rockin' Down The Highway_), first thing in the morning... no coffee (Loki Mini on bypass). The guitars (frequency) are more pronounced? Clearer imaging? I'm able to parse apart the different instruments & vocals? _I had better drink my coffee_.


bcowen said:


> Has anyone run across a Vali adapter for dual 1610's?  I really want to try a pair of these:



I'd double-dog-dare you to set *(photoshop) *this up.  Great image. I'm assuming that was used on RADAR, television, or AM/FM installations.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

...anyone willing to try this one?


----------



## Ripper2860

^^^  Wait??   There's a tube in that picture???


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Ripper2860 said:


> ^^^  Wait??   There's a tube in that picture???


yes. On the right. In high heels. Water-cooled


----------



## bcowen (Mar 29, 2019)

ScubaMan2017 said:


> I'd double-dog-dare you to set *(photoshop) *this up.  Great image. I'm assuming that was used on RADAR, television, or AM/FM installations.



There's actually an (audio) app for that.    The Kronzilla SX1 Mk 2.  50 watts of single-ended triode power per tube.  Bet that would make my Aeon's jump....

Credit for the pictures as properly due (and no, that's not me in the pic. I'm way more handsome):
http://www.stereomojo.com/KR Audio Kronzilla SX1 Mk II Review/KRAudioKronzillaSX1MkIIAmplifierReview.htm


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> yes. On the right. In high heels. Water-cooled



No, on the right is the tube _socket_.

Or have I been doing this wrong all these years?


----------



## Paladin79

Oh heck you were serious about wanting the amp, it is much easier to find smaller single triiode tubes and to use a bunch of them. If the amp was $16,000 in the late nineties, it has to be really pricey now.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> No, on the right is the tube _socket_.
> 
> Or have I been doing this wrong all these years?


Sure. Tube socket. Yes.

This is a dangerous direction of the discussion. Let us go back to, err, tubes?


----------



## Robert Padgett

OH, My.... a gal really loves her tubes


----------



## HellooooThar

Robert Padgett said:


> OH, My.... a gal really loves her tubes



Never has a greater demon been summoned by Photoshop...is this your fine work sir?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> This is a dangerous direction of the discussion. Let us go back to, err, tubes?



Agreed.  If we continue in this direction @Ripper2860 will be barging in at any moment.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> OH, My.... a gal really loves her tubes



That's _waaaaaaay_ better than my picture.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh heck you were serious about wanting the amp, it is much easier to find smaller single triiode tubes and to use a bunch of them. If the amp was $16,000 in the late nineties, it has to be really pricey now.



I spend $16k on breakfast.  No biggie.  The problem is the tubes are like $1500 each.


----------



## Robert Padgett

HellooooThar said:


> Never has a greater demon been summoned by Photoshop...is this your fine work sir?


Credit for the pictures as properly due:
http://www.stereomojo.com/KR Audio ...ew/KRAudioKronzillaSX1MkIIAmplifierReview.htm

My photoshop skills were limited by editorial directive to be:1.Crop, 2.Tone, 3.Caption and Transmit....

Years ago, the editors at the wire services agreed that no Photoshop was allowed in news pictures, and outside of the three aforementioned tasks, we were not allowed much leeway.  

But for my own fun, I did turn GOP Presidential candidate Bob Dole into a giant green alien lizard, with a fake National Enquired cover, asking the question, "Who knew?"


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> I spend $16k on breakfast.  No biggie.  The problem is the tubes are like $1500 each.


Is that each, or a Platinum Marched pair, and did Melz make a 1578 version?


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 29, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I spend $16k on breakfast.  No biggie.  The problem is the tubes are like $1500 each.


 I need to build a 300B amp first but I doubt I will spend more than $500 on tubes there, I hope to use single triodes as drivers as well so I still need to think through some of this.

$1500 tubes and there are not many of those amps around where you can hear the results. Even when you do, are the results worth ten times what I will spend on a 300B amp?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I need to build a 300B amp first but I doubt I will spend more than $500 on tubes there, I hope to use single triodes as drivers as well so I still need to think through some of this.
> 
> $1500 tubes and there are not many of those amps around where you can hear the results. Even when you do, are the results worth ten times what I will spend on a 300B amp?



How about a 300BXLS?  You can wring 25 watts out of one.  Make it an easy 20 watts running it conservatively.  Not cheap (~1k/pair), but the things last forever. I have in excess of 10k hours on the pair in the Jota, and I have a backup pair that I'll pop in every now and then just to see if I can detect any difference or decline (with all the tube testers I've run through, none have been capable of juicing that tube enough to get a good reading on it).  Sonically, the old ones still sound just as good as the new ones...


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> Is that each, or a Platinum Marched pair, and did Melz make a 1578 version?



The Melz version is the 3156. 

Seriously, the 1610 is an electrical copy of an 805, just beefed way up to spurt more juice.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 29, 2019)

bcowen said:


> How about a 300BXLS?  You can wring 25 watts out of one.  Make it an easy 20 watts running it conservatively.  Not cheap (~1k/pair), but the things last forever. I have in excess of 10k hours on the pair in the Jota, and I have a backup pair that I'll pop in every now and then just to see if I can detect any difference or decline (with all the tube testers I've run through, none have been capable of juicing that tube enough to get a good reading on it).  Sonically, the old ones still sound just as good as the new ones...



I might consider those tubes if I need more power, I plan to start with some very efficient Klipsch and move on to Tekton double impacts but that is down the road a bit.I still enjoy tinkering with little headphone amps so I have plenty to keep me busy before I finalize the speaker amp.  For under $100 for B stock the Vali offers a variety of sound depending on the tube choices. Luckily I run dual computers so I can still switch over to higher end DACS and HF tube amps at will, with occasional solid state products thrown into the mix.

Bill I have a serious question for you since you have heard a lot of tubes. Given the choice between 6N6P, ECC99, 12BH7, and E88CC. What would be your preference on tube type to use considering in sonic quality, availability, and not so much the price?  (I came up with the list quickly so if there is some redundancy I apologize.)

Tom


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 29, 2019)

Wow.  This thread deteriorated quickly.  Just when it was getting interesting it quickly reverted back to actual non-sexual innuendo tube talk.  How disappointing.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I might consider those tubes if I need more power, I plan to start with some very efficient Klipsch and move on to Tekton double impacts but that is down the road a bit.I still enjoy tinkering with little headphone amps so I have plenty to keep me busy before I finalize the speaker amp.  For under $100 for B stock the Vali offers a variety of sound depending on the tube choices. Luckily I run dual computers so I can still switch over to higher end DACS and HF tube amps at will, with occasional solid state products thrown into the mix.
> 
> Bill I have a serious question for you since you have heard a lot of tubes. Given the choice between 6N6P, ECC99, 12BH7, and E88CC. What would be your preference on tube type to use considering in sonic quality, availability, and not so much the price?  (I came up with the list quickly so if there is some redundancy I apologize.)
> 
> Tom



I've never even heard the 6N6P (or the ECC99, which is similar just with dual voltage capability). Both are only available from JJ or Russian factories which limits the rolling flavors a bit. As we all know (now ) there are Russian-made tubes that are outstanding. There's also a lot that sound like crap.  Would need some further investigation on what factories are making or made them.

My Jota uses a pair of 12BH7's, but I haven't rolled many through. I have some RCA's and Tung Sols, and can't reliably hear a difference between them. May be the circuit isn't sensitive to them, or may be my hearing is shot. They're plentiful and cheap though. I can send you a pair of RCA's to play with if you want to experiment.  There's also the 12BZ7 which is similar except MUCH higher gain (similar to the gain difference between a 12AU7 and 12AX7).

Then the good 'ol E88CC/6922.  The good ones are getting ridiculously expensive, but lots of rolling options. Not my favorite tube type, personally. I'd rather have a good 6DJ8 / ECC88 -- they just seem to have a more organic and natural sound. But they're more prone to being noisy and/or microphonic than the 6922, so finding quiet ones is an extra challenge.

Of all those for a new amp, I'm intrigued with the 12BH7 / 12BH7A just 'cause it's different, there's good availability and lots of rolling options (although they all seem to be US made), and they're comparatively cheap. Both the RCA's and Tung Sols have been long lasting and noise-free, so it would appear to be a well designed tube.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Wow.  This thread deteriorated quickly.  Just when it was getting interesting it quickly reverted back to actual non-sexual innuendo tube talk.  How disappointing.



Took almost 5 hours for this to ping on your radar?  You're getting slow, old man.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ...with occasional solid state products thrown into the mix.



Almost missed that.  

You're fired.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I've never even heard the 6N6P (or the ECC99, which is similar just with dual voltage capability). Both are only available from JJ or Russian factories which limits the rolling flavors a bit. As we all know (now ) there are Russian-made tubes that are outstanding. There's also a lot that sound like crap.  Would need some further investigation on what factories are making or made them.
> 
> My Jota uses a pair of 12BH7's, but I haven't rolled many through. I have some RCA's and Tung Sols, and can't reliably hear a difference between them. May be the circuit isn't sensitive to them, or may be my hearing is shot. They're plentiful and cheap though. I can send you a pair of RCA's to play with if you want to experiment.  There's also the 12BZ7 which is similar except MUCH higher gain (similar to the gain difference between a 12AU7 and 12AX7).
> 
> ...



Thanks for your input Bill. I believe that even if I go with a specific tube, a resistor change will allow me to use other tubes but I need to start somewhere. I am also thinking ahead to which allow for adapter changes and the 6922 to the 6sn7 is an easy one, and like you guys, my supply is 6sn7's keeps increasing. Because I will design the top plate and case of the amp myself I can allow plenty of room for adapters and not hurt the looks or performance of the amp. Having two 6922/ECC88  test beds certainly makes it an appealing choice.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 30, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Almost missed that.
> 
> You're fired.


 One has to be aware of other equipment, even if it is not used too often. Sorry about the outcome of the game last night, it is hard to get past a team that hits 17 3 point shots. NC showed a lot of class in their reaction to the Auburn player that was hurt.

Above are some older ST Sylvania single triodes in the Vali, I have since adjusted the adapter so it sits straighter on the amp.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Paladin79 said:


> ...{snip}.....Above are some older ST Sylvania single triodes in the Vali, I have since adjusted the adapter so it sits straighter on the amp.


So, you have 2 headphone amplifiers in series (that's staging, right?). And an adapter that separates the left and right channels into separate tubes. These tubes have only 1 triode in each structure. @Paladin79 , would you mind dropping a link about the adapter (I'd like to educate myself on HOW it works)...?


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 30, 2019)

ScubaMan2017 said:


> So, you have 2 headphone amplifiers in series (that's staging, right?). And an adapter that separates the left and right channels into separate tubes. These tubes have only 1 triode in each structure. @Paladin79 , would you mind dropping a link about the adapter (I'd like to educate myself on HOW it works)...?



My understanding of staging has more to do with active volume controls on both amps, the preamp out on the Aune is not adjustable in this application so it feeds a constant level into the Vali 2. There are two types of adapters shown, the front is dual 6j5 to 6922, the rear tubes are in a 6j5 to 6sn7 adapter, then a 6sn7 to 6922 adapter below that. 6j5's are single triode tubes, thus I use four of them. They are direct replacements for the 6sn7 that contains twin triodes within the tube, as does a 6922. I get the majority of my info from tube manuals (I own ten or so) but I can provide links for a couple adapters, most of those come out of China.

here is the rear adapter, it needs a second adapter to work in this application:   https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-6J5-6J5-To-6SN7-6SL7-Vacuum-Tube-Amplifier-Convert-Socket-Adapter/283135241967?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

A simpler way to go is to use this adapter in the Vali, you will also need a socket extender:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6...ter-adapter-/201458214762?hash=item2ee7d8676a

A riser, (socket extender) is:https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-NEW-9-P...m3d4266a4e0:g:Xe0AAOSwWmlZd4q7&frcectupt=true

an example of tubes that sound really good in the Vali:   https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tests-NOS-...cYAAOSw~M5cWa2Q:sc:USPSFirstClass!47403!US!-1

I use the 6sn7 to 6922 adapters as well, they are easy to find. This allows you to use 6sn7's in place of the 6922 as shown in the photo.

The dual 6j5's are direct replacements for the single 6sn7 and it is good to have this adapter so you can listen to the 6sn7 and then hear the difference when you cut down on crosstalk by using a pair of single triode tubes. I am trying out various black glass tubes but it is not something I would recommend if you are just starting out with 6sn7's.

The adapter shown, 6sn7 to 6922: https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-to-69...m25e33e778f:g:hyUAAOSw1JVZ8dFW&frcectupt=true

They are readily available.


----------



## Paladin79

drawings of the 6sn7 and 6j5, Two 6j5's are a direct replacement for the 6sn7. Since they are a direct replacement, you can use another adapter such as the 6sn7 to 6922 without problems, or at least that has been my experience. Electrically they are the same.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Paladin79 said:


> My understanding of staging has more to do with active volume controls on both amps, the preamp out on the Aune is not adjustable in this application so it feeds a constant level into the Vali 2. There are two types of adapters shown, the front is dual 6j5 to 6922, the rear tubes are in a 6j5 to 6sn7 adapter, then a 6sn7 to 6922 adapter below that. 6j5's are single triode tubes, thus I use four of them. They are direct replacements for the 6sn7 that contains twin triodes within the tube, as does a 6922. I get the majority of my info from tube manuals (I own ten or so) but I can provide links for a couple adapters, most of those come out of China.
> 
> here is the rear adapter, it needs a second adapter to work in this application:   https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-6J5-6J5-To-6SN7-6SL7-Vacuum-Tube-Amplifier-Convert-Socket-Adapter/283135241967?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> ...





Paladin79 said:


> drawings of the 6sn7 and 6j5, Two 6j5's are a direct replacement for the 6sn7. Since they are a direct replacement, you can use another adapter such as the 6sn7 to 6922 without problems, or at least that has been my experience. Electrically they are the same.


(cntrl-C) >>> Google Keep >>> (cntrl-V) + (citation) = thanks, eh.


----------



## Robert Padgett (Mar 31, 2019)

ScubaMan2017 said:


> (cntrl-C) >>> Google Keep >>> (cntrl-V) + (citation) = thanks, eh.



@ScubaMan2017, I  can both corroborate and buttress @Paladin79 about the dual-tubes on the Vali 2.
You noticed a difference between a stock tube and the 6SN7 --even though the JJ was a new production tube (Which only get more refined and better sounding as it plays). Now imagine that improvement, plus zero crosstalk between the channels--may be a poor man's Monoblock Amp? 
The choices in tube range from cheap/nasty to moderate price and fantastic. I second the "tests NOS Sylvanias" he recommended.
They have a pronounced Bass Slam, which will sound like your HPs were modded with a sub-woofer driver. No kidding. Before you spend another penny on more 6SN7 envelopes, give the dual adapter rig a try with Sylvania tubes.  

www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6J5G-6C5G-VT-94-CV1932-L63-VR67-TO-ECC88-6922-tube-converter-adapter-/201458214762 

This the only manufacturer of the dual 6J5s to 6922 nine-pin adapters. (Or at least the guy who makes them...nice man, Xu Ling) which will plug into your socket saver.
You don't want a dual to 6SN7 and then an adapter to 6SN7 to 6922. I am afraid that would make the 'Franken-Vali' so top heavy it might fall over  
I use my dual adapter Vali 2 every night, and I marvel at the sound quality.  This is one band-wagon I am happy to be a part of. Others have tried dual tubes on other amplifiers, but the topology of the Vali 2 seems to be the most outstanding pairing.


----------



## HellooooThar (Mar 31, 2019)

Just a heads up for anyone that might be buying some 6DJ8s -- 1960 and earlier from Herleen are vastly superior sonically in my opinion. Just got a set from 1960 and I absolutely love them. Kicked my Matsu National 7DJ8s out. Very affordable cost $45 for a pair. Suspect marketing as "bugle boy" when they had no labels left, but definitely amazing and amazingly cheapo. Serious electric/acoustic bass punch on my HE400I's. Legitimately done buying tubes for a while.

Compared to later 6DJ8 from Holland, these have better bass definition in my book. They also seem to have a less gritty or aggressive mid/top end -- perhaps a bit more laid back and comfortable with HiFiMan planars like the 400I that tend to get sibilant mighty easy. Compared to the Matsu, they are FAR superior bass slam/punch and a bit more depth in my book. Very clean, no noise to my ears. If yall wanna expirement yourselves, I am listening to Tinariwen's album Emmaar.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

HellooooThar said:


> Just a heads up for anyone that might be buying some 6DJ8s -- 1960 and earlier from Herleen are vastly superior sonically in my opinion. Just got a set from 1960 and I absolutely love them.


I have a PCC88 Philips from Herleen factory. No idea what year - how do I find it? Have not spent much time on it yet with HE400i - mostly with K702. Found it to have an interesting sound signature – distant a bit, and relaxed, maybe somewhat dark, balanced and a little veiled resolution. Soft sound, deep bass - a bit like old radio sound - nostalgic. Very special, and so musical. Will now try with HE400i.


----------



## HellooooThar (Apr 1, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I have a PCC88 Philips from Herleen factory. No idea what year - how do I find it? Have not spent much time on it yet with HE400i - mostly with K702. Found it to have an interesting sound signature – distant a bit, and relaxed, maybe somewhat dark, balanced and a little veiled resolution. Soft sound, deep bass - a bit like old radio sound - nostalgic. Very special, and so musical. Will now try with HE400i.



Can you upload a picture? I should be able to tell you. Edit-the code I need is at the base of the tube, probably grey.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

HellooooThar said:


> Can you upload a picture? I should be able to tell you. Edit-the code I need is at the base of the tube, probably grey.


----------



## HellooooThar

Old Deaf Donkey said:


>



Turn the tube 90 degrees to the right. I need to see that grey code right next to the bottom.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

HellooooThar said:


> Turn the tube 90 degrees to the right. I need to see that grey code right next to the bottom.


I realised that. Have not even seen the grey bit before! Tough game to make pics unprepared... Thank you for your patience


----------



## HellooooThar

Okay, so I think you have a 1959 tube made in November. The top three characters are the tube type code, the bottom three are, in order, Factory (Delta means Herleen), Year (9 is the last digit - this is where it gets confusing - in theory it could be a 59, 69 or 79 from my understanding) and Month - K for sure means November.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

HellooooThar said:


> Okay, so I think you have a 1959 tube made in November. The top three characters are the tube type code, the bottom three are, in order, Factory (Delta means Herleen), Year (9 is the last digit - this is where it gets confusing - in theory it could be a 59, 69 or 79 from my understanding) and Month - K for sure means November.


So Many thanks. I have looked at Brent Jessee classification, conclusion looks the same. A nice sound signature, will try with HE400i and report


----------



## HellooooThar (Apr 1, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> So Many thanks. I have looked at Brent Jessee classification, conclusion looks the same. A nice sound signature, will try with HE400i and report



My pleasure! I really like my older 6DJ8, I will be curious to see what you think of a 7DJ8 from same factory, same era. With my 400Is these tubes seem to have a unique way of handling punchy, fat bass that just makes them superior to anything else I have. Left/right seperation is phenomenal and there is more space than I would guess. R&B just sounds amazing with them.


----------



## Paladin79

7A4 Loktal twin tubes in place of 6sn7, going into Vali. Industrial Sylvania's, they need to burn in a bit but the tubes show promise, bass is quite good, mids are lacking a bit early on.  Separation is what I hoped for with such a setup.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> 7A4 Loktal twin tubes in place of 6sn7, going into Vali. Industrial Sylvania's, they need to burn in a bit but the tubes show promise, bass is quite good, mids are lacking a bit early on.  Separation is what I hoped for with such a setup.



If you open the door and a little breeze comes through, does that fall over?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 2, 2019)

Bill this tube adapter is as solid as your credibility. 

I am a Gemini, I do things in twos, leave me alone. 

In the DAC are the Sylvania 6j5's with three hole plates I really like, now if they make this 7A4 in the tall boy version, I will have to seek those out but none of my tube books talk about them. There is just something about the tall loktals from what I have learned from some helpful soul.
All Sylvania tubes, they are my preference for single triode applications.

http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2017/08/tube-of-month-7a4.html

Some really good 7A4 info.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> 7A4 Loktal twin tubes in place of 6sn7, going into Vali. Industrial Sylvania's, they need to burn in a bit but the tubes show promise, bass is quite good, mids are lacking a bit early on.  Separation is what I hoped for with such a setup.


Wow. If your adapter tower gets any taller you're going to have to install those blinking lights they use to keep aircraft from crashing into it


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 2, 2019)

The sound is worth it, and I am finding plenty of 7A4's new old stock from the forties and fifties for $40 a pair. This is a fairly low gain pair so I have some XXL's on the way, military version is the VT 192. Like the 6J5's, I may have to try a half dozen pairs before I find a favorite. Most I come across are RCA, Sylvania, Tung Sol, and National Union.  Bass slam is respectable but I have more listening to do before I form a final opinion.  The biggest thing is channel separation, this setup can change your perceptions of some of your favorite recordings IMHO.

I can try the dual tubes in a few setups, in this one the bass is incredible, fed by a Gumby and Freya with some serious 6sn7's. (RCA grey glass and Hytron CBS)


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Wow. If your adapter tower gets any taller you're going to have to install those blinking lights they use to keep aircraft from crashing into it



LOL!  And OSHA will require handrails around the perimeter surrounding the ADA-mandated elevator in the center. Gonna get expensive.


----------



## bkboy12

Hey, Head Fi crew. So my Tung Sol 6sn7gtb tube came in today, along with my 9-pin socket saver and the 6922 to 6sn7 adapter. The new tube sounds nice out of the box. As far as the 9-pin socket saver goes, do you all leave it in all the time? I read some people just use them when they test tubes, so I was a bit unsure. I was just going to leave mine in the Vali 2.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 3, 2019)

It will not hurt to leave it in at all times, I prefer to do that rather than constantly plugging it in and out. IMHO such actions defeat the purpose of a socket saver.


----------



## bkboy12

Paladin79 said:


> It will not hurt to leave it in at all times, I prefer to do that rather than constantly plugging it in and out. IMHO such actions defeat the purpose of a socket saver.



Ahhh, good to know. I’ll leave it in. Thanks for the advice!!


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bkboy12 said:


> Hey, Head Fi crew. So my Tung Sol 6sn7gtb tube came in today, along with my 9-pin socket saver and the 6922 to 6sn7 adapter. The new tube sounds nice out of the box. As far as the 9-pin socket saver goes, do you all leave it in all the time? I read some people just use them when they test tubes, so I was a bit unsure. I was just going to leave mine in the Vali 2.


Welcome to the thread, @bkboy12 . I had to choose either a (Tung Sol 6SN7) or a tube made by JJ Electronics, from the Slovak Republic. They'e both new production. I went with the Slovakian glass... and paid a premium for balanced triodes (as we're instructed on Schiit's support page [FAQ questions 5-6])... and 'low hiss and microphonics' (_yeah, I know... a needless charge... my necessary nOOb fee_). No regrets. BTW, are you running your Vali topless? I need the socket-saver to clear the chassis.


----------



## Keno18

Now I know what to tell those who ask me "Why do you like tubes? ". I've been listening primarily to the mouse ears and decided to switch to the rca 12au7a clear top. Completely different sonic landscape but just as enjoyable. Now if I want neutral I switch to the 12au7 EH or a 12ax7 EH if I want dark. Try that with a solid state amp.


----------



## bkboy12

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Welcome to the thread, @bkboy12 . I had to choose either a (Tung Sol 6SN7) or a tube made by JJ Electronics, from the Slovak Republic. They'e both new production. I went with the Slovakian glass... and paid a premium for balanced triodes (as we're instructed on Schiit's support page [FAQ questions 5-6])... and 'low hiss and microphonics' (_yeah, I know... a needless charge... my necessary nOOb fee_). No regrets. BTW, are you running your Vali topless? I need the socket-saver to clear the chassis.



Hey, man! Don't feel too bad. I, too, ordered my tube with the balanced triodes. Lol. So far, so good. Nah, I'm not running it topless. My Vali 2 is quite modest .


----------



## Robert Padgett

bkboy12 said:


> Hey, man! Don't feel too bad. I, too, ordered my tube with the balanced triodes. Lol. So far, so good. Nah, I'm not running it topless. My Vali 2 is quite modest .



Then you are ready for anything.
I have to use two socket savers to get my 6SN7 adapter to clear the top of the Valhalla 2...


----------



## Paladin79

Ok here is a tube setup that is not quite so top heavy. Testing some black glass 6sn7's in both Dac and Vali. Some of these tubes can be very expensive so that probably colors the perception of what they might sound like. I will just describe these as having a mellow, smooth, and accurate sound. Not lacking in any area, I could listen to them for a bit, bottom D getters, National Unions.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok here is a tube setup that is not quite so top heavy. Testing some black glass 6sn7's in both Dac and Vali. Some of these tubes can be very expensive so that probably colors the perception of what they might sound like. I will just describe these as having a mellow, smooth, and accurate sound. Not lacking in any area, I could listen to them for a bit, bottom D getters, National Unions.



That looks a wee bit more stable.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 5, 2019)

Only for those with a diminished sense of adventure.


----------



## CAPT Deadpool

Paladin79 said:


> Ok here is a tube setup that is not quite so top heavy. Testing some black glass 6sn7's in both Dac and Vali. Some of these tubes can be very expensive so that probably colors the perception of what they might sound like. I will just describe these as having a mellow, smooth, and accurate sound. Not lacking in any area, I could listen to them for a bit, bottom D getters, National Unions.



What is the best tube pairing you've found so far for the Vali 2?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 5, 2019)

Melz 1578, best 6sn7 equivalent to date, as far as a single tube.  I am testing more 7a4’s and black glass VT 231’s later today. In order my favorites are all 6SN7 equivalents. I have tried and own many other tubes but for me, they have to be 6sn7 type or a variable thereof.

The question concerned the Vali, now were I to put the same tubes in another amp, my answer would change. The Black glass RCA comes out way too bass heavy there, but the Ken Rad black glass is glorious in that amp!

Melz 1578
RCA black glass vt 231
RCA grey glass from 1942
Hytron CBS 5692
National Union Black  glass VT 231
Sylvania 3 hole bad boy
Sylavania VT-192 pair
Tung Sol round plate
Sylvania pair of 6j5's, three hold black plates
Sylvania 7A4 pair
Foton 6H8C 1953
Ken RAD black glass VT 231
7n7 tall boys
RCA VT 231 smoked glass


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Melz 1578, best 6sn7 equivalent to date, as far as a single tube.  I am testing more 7a4’s and black glass VT 231’s later today. In order my favorites are all 6SN7 equivalents. I have tried and own many other tubes but for me, they have to be 6sn7 type or a variable thereof.
> 
> The question concerned the Vali, now were I to put the same tubes in another amp, my answer would change. The Black glass RCA comes out way too bass heavy there, but the Ken Rad black glass is glorious in that amp!
> 
> ...



My Melz is coming around finally after ~100 hours of break-in and re-soldering the pins (both tubes had random noise issues until I re-soldered).  No wild good/bad/good/bad break-in ride like the Foton, but seemed to need around the same _amount_ of break-in time to really show off. Sounded very good to start with, but the very good wasn't quite in holy grail territory for me -- lacked impact and power in the mid and upper bass and macrodynamics were restrained.  Both of those areas have improve substantially over the past 60-70 hours. Little by little it's getting pretty close to unseating Frankie.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 5, 2019)

bcowen said:


> My Melz is coming around finally after ~100 hours of break-in and re-soldering the pins (both tubes had random noise issues until I re-soldered).  No wild good/bad/good/bad break-in ride like the Foton, but seemed to need around the same _amount_ of break-in time to really show off. Sounded very good to start with, but the very good wasn't quite in holy grail territory for me -- lacked impact and power in the mid and upper bass and macrodynamics were restrained.  Both of those areas have improve substantially over the past 60-70 hours. Little by little it's getting pretty close to unseating Frankie.



Bill there is no way we should agree on something, if you start to like the Melz I am going to have to tell you about this other tube I got, it is so good, I can only listen to it in small stretches. My other tubes are ashamed to be in the same room. 

You should hear the single triode versions of the Frankies. I just got the Sylvania xxl 7a4's, military VT-192's and they are impressive new out of the box so they should be something when they settle in. The Melz to me are not lacking in any area, so they are a standard by which I compare other tubes but that is just my opinion. The tricky part of the Vali is the tube I use in the Aune to feed it, if I really work at it, the Vali starts to sound pretty good for what it is. Getting proper bass is not easy, bass that sounds good in the Vali flat overwhelms other amps I am trying. Change part of the chain, change the sound.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> My Melz is coming around finally after ~100 hours of break-in and re-soldering the pins (both tubes had random noise issues until I re-soldered).  No wild good/bad/good/bad break-in ride like the Foton, but seemed to need around the same _amount_ of break-in time to really show off. Sounded very good to start with, but the very good wasn't quite in holy grail territory for me -- lacked impact and power in the mid and upper bass and macrodynamics were restrained.  Both of those areas have improve substantially over the past 60-70 hours. Little by little it's getting pretty close to unseating Frankie.



I've read it mentioned a few times now, what this "re-soldering the pins" about?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill there is no way we should agree on something, if you start to like the Melz I am going to have to tell you about this other tube I got, it is so good, I can only listen to it in small stretches. My other tubes are ashamed to be in the same room.
> 
> You should hear the single triode versions of the Frankies. I just got the Sylvania xxl 7a4's, military VT-192's and they are impressive new out of the box so they should be something when they settle in. The Melz to me are not lacking in any area, so they are a standard by which I compare other tubes but that is just my opinion. The tricky part of the Vali is the tube I use in the Aune to feed it, if I really work at it, the Vali starts to sound pretty good for what it is. Getting proper bass is not easy, bass that sounds good in the Vali flat overwhelms other amps I am trying. Change part of the chain, change the sound.



Well glory be.  Look what Xulingmrs has.    Guess I need some 7A4's now. 

I hate you.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 5, 2019)

Mr Trev said:


> I've read it mentioned a few times now, what this "re-soldering the pins" about?



Re-heating the pins at the bottom to melt the internal solder (and usually add a little more too). Many times noise issues (like hum, sputtering, static-ey sounds, etc) can be due to a bad connection where the internal wiring is soldered to the tube pin(s). Reheating (re-flowing) this solder can fix that if that's the cause of the problem. This only works on octals or tubes with hollow pins -- not an option for a 9-pin, loctal, etc.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Re-heating the pins at the bottom to melt the internal solder (and usually add a little more too). Many times noise issues (like hum, sputtering, static-ey sounds, etc) can be due to a bad connection where the internal wiring is soldered to the tube pin(s). Reheating (re-flowing) this solder can fix that if that's the cause of the problem.



I see, seems innocent enough. You don't have to worry about cracking the glass?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well glory be.  Look what Xulingmrs has.    Guess I need some 7A4's now.
> 
> I hate you.



You absolutely have to have that adapter to try the 7A4's, you would think just a change of socket type and use of the 6j5 adapter might work, but it did not for me. If you get one and a set of the 7A4's go straight for the VT-192's, do not dilly dally around, man up and go for the big boy tubes and you should be fine. The chrome dome takes up about 3/4 of the tube so maybe that was good enough for military usage, notice it is about the same coverage as the black glass in the background.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I see, seems innocent enough. You don't have to worry about cracking the glass?



Oh, no. Not enough heat needed to travel that far and still be hot enough to crack the glass.


----------



## Paladin79

And I have had it recommended to keep the pins angled down to avoid solder flow back into the tube. Capillary action should draw the solder in a bit.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You absolutely have to have that adapter to try the 7A4's, you would think just a change of socket type and use of the 6j5 adapter might work, but it did not for me. If you get one and a set of the 7A4's go straight for the VT-192's, do not dilly dally around, man up and go for the big boy tubes and you should be fine. The chrome dome takes up about 3/4 of the tube so maybe that was good enough for military usage, notice it is about the same coverage as the black glass in the background.



Ha!  They even have squared off tops like Frankie.    I can't tell in the picture though...are those round plates?

There's a pair on Ebay right now. These boxes look anything like yours?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 5, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Ha!  They even have squared off tops like Frankie.    I can't tell in the picture though...are those round plates?
> 
> There's a pair on Ebay right now. These boxes look anything like yours?


  Mine say US Army Signal Corps but all else is the same, Sylvania VT -192.

And no, we are not calling them frankfurters, I need to get you enrolled in a course on tube naming before you are allowed to name another tube.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Mine say US Army Signal Corps but all else is the same, Sylvania VT -192.



Thanks. I can't tell from the seller's pics if they have the frankenhead top. That's a major distinguishing feature of the 7N7's...and yours clearly have it.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 5, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Thanks. I can't tell from the seller's pics if they have the frankenhead top. That's a major distinguishing feature of the 7N7's...and yours clearly have it.



I imagine they have that top, I only go by your guidance before I buy any tube. Generally I ask myself "What would Bill do?" before I buy anything. The Industrial Sylvania 7A4's have that top as do some VT 231's.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I imagine they have that top, I only go by your guidance before I buy any tube. Generally I ask myself "What would Bill do?" before I buy anything. The Industrial Sylvania 7A4's have that top as do some VT 231's.



ROFL!


----------



## bcowen (Apr 5, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> My other tubes are ashamed to be in the same room.



I'm having the same problem myself right now. This one tube has _alienated_ all the others. Tubes are such a pain.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 5, 2019)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/True-NOS-N...NIAAOSwW~FcWa2Z:sc:USPSFirstClass!47403!US!-1

Here is a serious tube, but you need two. The venerable VT-94D. Three hole black plate, bottom getter. This is basically a Naughty Girl tube that straightened up after she joined the military.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I'm having the same problem myself right now. This one tube has _alienated_ all the others. Tubes are such a pain.



I very, nearly, almost bought an amp solely because it used a tube like that…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I very, nearly, almost bought an amp solely because it used a tube like that…



LOL!!  Looks like it puts out almost as much power as a 6550....but also looks like a pain to implement with a bunch of shielding requirements. I love the antennas though.


----------



## HellooooThar

So my DAC just died. 

Randomly. 

May we all pour one out for my D10. No matter what cable I use or what computer I plug in to, it just isn't seen by that computer. 

I am now staring uselessly at my Lyr 2. I also have no money


----------



## Ripper2860

HellooooThar said:


> So my DAC just died.
> 
> Randomly.
> 
> ...



Sorry to hear that.


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> So my DAC just died.
> 
> Randomly.
> 
> ...


I'm very sorry to hear that. In the short term if you can scrape together $35, Amazon has the Xtrempro X1 dac which is a clone of the Audioquest Dragonfly v1.2. I've been using one for about a year now and the sound quality is quite good. You're just limited to 96k.


----------



## HellooooThar

Keno18 said:


> I'm very sorry to hear that. In the short term if you can scrape together $35, Amazon has the Xtrempro X1 dac which is a clone of the Audioquest Dragonfly v1.2. I've been using one for about a year now and the sound quality is quite good. You're just limited to 96k.



You listened (or know anyone who has) to that Massdrop x Grace Design DAC? There seems to be kinda polar opinion about it, some hating that NWavguy had a hand in its design, some commending it as absolutely excellent.


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> You listened (or know anyone who has) to that Massdrop x Grace Design DAC? There seems to be kinda polar opinion about it, some hating that NWavguy had a hand in its design, some commending it as absolutely excellent.


I think it has a limited sampling rate too. Let me see if I can find it on Massdrop  Be right back


----------



## Keno18

Keno18 said:


> I think it has a limited sampling rate too. Let me see if I can find it on Massdrop  Be right back


Yeah, it's also limited to 96k, otherwise it's,probably a solid performer.


----------



## HellooooThar

Keno18 said:


> Yeah, it's also limited to 96k, otherwise it's,probably a solid performer.



Hm. Just debating getting another D10, or getting something else. D10 I think is just a little over $90. At that range it duels the Modi (non multibit). Not sure which is better, I thought the D10 was perhaps harsh with the HE 400I at times, but I had no point of comparison.


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> Hm. Just debating getting another D10, or getting something else. D10 I think is just a little over $90. At that range it duels the Modi (non multibit). Not sure which is better, I thought the D10 was perhaps harsh with the HE 400I at times, but I had no point of comparison.


You just got burned with the D10, maybe it's time to try the Modi.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 6, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Melz 1578, best 6sn7 equivalent to date, as far as a single tube.  I am testing more 7a4’s and black glass VT 231’s later today. In order my favorites are all 6SN7 equivalents. I have tried and own many other tubes but for me, they have to be 6sn7 type or a variable thereof.
> 
> The question concerned the Vali, now were I to put the same tubes in another amp, my answer would change. The Black glass RCA comes out way too bass heavy there, but the Ken Rad black glass is glorious in that amp!
> 
> ...



In my very humble experience, some tubes sound rather different on different headphones, not just on different amp systems. For instance, at the moment, I prefer 6C8G (RCA) on AKG K702, and 5760 (WE396A) on HE400i, whilst 6SN7 (Tung-Sol "mouse ears") seems to work well on both. I am waiting to try the 6J5 pairs, some are arriving from the US next week, some from Ukraine only Lord knows when... Still have not found any 1578 Melz with round holes for reasonable prices, even in Russia they are up to $50-60 + shipping and almost impossible to find.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 6, 2019)

Be very careful if you start to buy some 1578 Melz, there are indicators you should look for. The tubes in the $50-$60 range have the holes but that is only one of three indicators you should look for. The other are a stepped bottom mica and metal wings at the top. The ones with those features tend to go for $90-$120.   
 I watch the postings nearly daily and the Russians tend to know what they have and what they should go for. On occasion you might see a used tube with proper markings go at a lower rate. BGRANT.RU is where I bought mine, alone with 9 or 10 friends and they are the real thing.

These are correct but I do not know the seller.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-of-1578-Tubes-6SN7GT-ECC32-6CC10-6H8C-MELZ-Metal

this one has the holes but the other two indicators are wrong. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Radio-T...318146?hash=item2617c18e82:g:gKgAAOSwQ9xckprm

If you are in doubt, PM me before buying and I will try to make sure you are not getting ripped off.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Be very careful if you start to buy some 1578 Melz, there are indicators you should look for. The tubes in the $50-$60 range have the holes but that is only one of three indicators you should look for. The other are a stepped bottom mica and metal wings at the top. The ones with those features tend to go for $90-$120.    I watch the postings nearly daily and the Russians tend to know what they have and what they should go for. On occasion you might see a used tube with proper markings go at a lower rate. BGRANT.RU is where I bought mine, alone with 9 or 10 friends and they are the real thing.
> 
> These are correct but I do not know the seller.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-of-1578-Tubes-6SN7GT-ECC32-6CC10-6H8C-MELZ-Metal
> 
> this one has the holes but the other two indicators are wrong. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Radio-T...318146?hash=item2617c18e82:g:gKgAAOSwQ9xckprm



Many thanks for your guidance. bgrant.ru does not open. I will not pay a $100 for a tube for vali, anyway.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Be very careful if you start to buy some 1578 Melz, there are indicators you should look for. The tubes in the $50-$60 range have the holes but that is only one of three indicators you should look for. The other are a stepped bottom mica and metal wings at the top. The ones with those features tend to go for $90-$120.    I watch the postings nearly daily and the Russians tend to know what they have and what they should go for. On occasion you might see a used tube with proper markings go at a lower rate. BGRANT.RU is where I bought mine, alone with 9 or 10 friends and they are the real thing.
> 
> These are correct but I do not know the seller.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-of-1578-Tubes-6SN7GT-ECC32-6CC10-6H8C-MELZ-Metal-Base-Holed-Anode/123642743576?hash=item1cc9ae8b18&enc=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&checksum=123642743576f564a816719943c69490618820a53436
> 
> this one has the holes but the other two indicators are wrong. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Radio-T...318146?hash=item2617c18e82:g:gKgAAOSwQ9xckprm



Full credit for this to @ilikepooters who posted this in another thread. Really nice:


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 6, 2019)

Sorry that was not a link, just the name of the seller I trust.  Than ks for giving credit where credit is due on the photo Bill, I have that one somewhere but it is not easily accessible so I was going by memory. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-1578-6N...m261891959e:g:g0sAAOSwiOZcTAXD&frcectupt=true


Totally understandable on the Vali and the price point. I use 6sn7's in other amps including this one so it is less of a stretch for me to pay more for a given tube. There is a big difference in using the dual, single triodes if you get a chance to try those out. You can get metal can 6j5's for very little money or pay substantially for some of the older ST's.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Many thanks for your guidance. bgrant.ru does not open. I will not pay a $100 for a tube for vali, anyway.



There's also this version of the Melz. Solid plates, metal base, early 50's manufacture. These are very good sounding tubes. Not to the level of the true 1578, but not priced that way either. I have a couple pairs and would rate them in the same ballpark as the ribbed plate Fotons. A little different in presentation, but overall at the same level.  I have a pair of the later manufacture black base ones as well, and they're not worth spending money on even though they're comparatively cheap -- the new TungSol that Schiit sells is better (to my ears).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-RARE-6...743463?hash=item2617b8c9a7:g:uB8AAOSwsIFckjL7


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 6, 2019)

Those even go for similar money as some of the ribbed plate Fotons so they are worth trying.

Here is a listing for metal can 6j5's, these are not my favorite but they are decent and readily available at low prices. https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-6J5-Vacu...m287ae9b98c:g:lHMAAOSw5apcaKfr&frcectupt=true

Then if you want to spend a bit more, go for Sylvania matched set black plate bottom D getters. I just bought some military version VT94D's, they are 6j5GT's.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...hkAAOSwoX5avFt5:sc:USPSFirstClass!47403!US!-1

They look like this when you can find them but they are not readily available to my knowledge.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 6, 2019)

bcowen said:


> There's also this version of the Melz. Solid plates, metal base, early 50's manufacture. These are very good sounding tubes. Not to the level of the true 1578, but not priced that way either. I have a couple pairs and would rate them in the same ballpark as the ribbed plate Fotons. A little different in presentation, but overall at the same level.  I have a pair of the later manufacture black base ones as well, and they're not worth spending money on even though they're comparatively cheap -- the new TungSol that Schiit sells is better (to my ears).
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-RARE-6...743463?hash=item2617b8c9a7:g:uB8AAOSwsIFckjL7



Thank you. These are available in Russia on Russian-language websites at very reasonable prices (say, $20 and less). However, the hemorrhoids of asking my Russian friends to pay, receive and resend are not worth it if one can be procured at ebay for $45. On the other hand, $100 is not a big deal to me if those 1578 are really good, I have spent many times more on tubes I probably won't stick in my Vali 2 again. Now i shall try the dual tubes and then see. Anyone with Melz 1578 in Vali 2, listening on AKG 702? Another reason for doubt is that as I wrote before the Russian audiophile fora seem to have a consensus that while MELZ 1578 is a decent tube, Sylvania's are better. May be the same bias for "foreign" tubes that we have this side of the curtain...


----------



## Paladin79

The Russians are paying shipping in some cases, EBAY fees,  and possibly customs fees. I have friends from Russia trying to locate large quantities of new old stock but so far no luck. Later today I will try to post a couple photos of reflowing solder on tube pins, my technique may be different from others but I play it very safe, I even have practice tubes to employ before I mess around with expensive tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Later today I will try to post a couple photos of reflowing solder on tube pins, my technique may be different from others but I play it very safe, I even have practice tubes to employ before I mess around with expensive tubes.



Be very interested in seeing that, Tom.  You've probably forgotten more about soldering than I've ever learned.


----------



## Paladin79

You are too kind Bill. If you gentlemen get serious about 6j5's, these are the tubes to watch for: On the right hand side are a pair of three hole black plate, bottom D getter tubes that are my favorites to date. The Naughty Girls, not to be confused with the 6sn7 Bad Boys.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> You are too kind Bill. If you gentlemen get serious about 6j5's, these are the tubes to watch for: On the right hand side are a pair of three hole black plate, bottom D getter tubes that are my favorites to date. The Naughty Girls, not to be confused with the 6sn7 Bad Boys.



Thank you once more for sharing. I will start my dual 65J quest from a pair of Philco and Super Silverstone (look the same), a matched pair of RCA, and a pair of 6S2S mabe by Novosibirsk factory in 1979. Then I shall see (or not...).


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 6, 2019)

Here is the method I use for re-flowing solder on vacuum tubes. Some tips:

Use liquid rosin solder flux as well as rosin core solder 60/40 tin, lead is fine
Have isopropyl and a small file or emery board for cleanup
Use a flat tip soldering iron tip if you own one, otherwise try for a medium to large tip.  I use 800 degree F Weller or similar in Hakko.
Use a heat sink clip, a device that will take away heat from the portion of the pin near the glass, a small alligator clip or hemostat can work.
Do not put the glass portion of a tube in a vise or holding device, hold by the base when possible.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 6, 2019)

I start by applying liquid rosin to the tip each pin, and putting the heat sink on the pin I am working on. Make sure the solder iron tip is kept clean and without excess solder on it. You are applying heat to the joint, you should not apply fresh solder to the tip of the iron, only to the tip of the tube pin you are working on. Make sure the rosin bubbles then apply solder and be sure the solder is melting and flowing inside the tube pin. When complete all tube pins should be shiny and bright without excess solder. Clean up any excess rosin from pins with alcohol, then use a file or emery board to remove any excess solder from tube pin shaft. I only apply the iron to the outside of the pins and not directly onto the very end where you are soldering, this will keep clean up simple and maintain that the solder is mainly on the inside of each pin. You also run less risk of the iron melting your pin tube guide if you stay on the outside of each pin.  Rotate the tube in the vise as needed. I keep the tube parallel to the work surface and just keep rotating it to reach each pin as it comes toward the top. The solder should only be applied to each tube pin tip, you will see the old solder start to flow there as the rosin bubbles. The heat sink keeps the inside portion of the pin cooler so you run less risk of having solder flow back up into the tube and or cracking the tube glass. You can buy a bunch of old tubes for very little money to practice on, I would not start by soldering a $100 tube. 

Capillary action will draw a bit of the fresh solder into the pin, using two layers of rosin helps clean the inside of the pin so that the tube elements make better contact. Rosin cleans the metal so that solder will adhere. Please let me know if any steps are unclear and I will post more photos. I prefer the heat sink method to assure I am not affecting getting solder back into the tube, you can try with the tube pins angled down a bit more as well.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 6, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I start by applying liquid rosin to the tip each pin, and putting the heat sink on the pin I am working on. Make sure the solder iron tip is kept clean and without excess solder on it. You are applying heat to the joint, you should not apply fresh solder to the tip of the iron, only to the tip of the tube pin you are working on. Make sure the rosin bubbles then apply solder and be sure the solder is melting and flowing inside the tube pin. When complete all tube pins should be shiny and bright without excess solder. Clean up any excess rosin from pins with alcohol, then use a file or emery board to remove any excess solder from tube pin shaft. I only apply the iron to the outside of the pins and not directly onto the very end where you are soldering, this will keep clean up simple and maintain that the solder is mainly on the inside of each pin. You also run less risk of the iron melting your pin tube guide if you stay on the outside of each pin.  Rotate the tube in the vise as needed. I keep the tube parallel to the work surface and just keep rotating it to reach each pin as it comes toward the top. The solder should only be applied to each tube pin tip, you will see the old solder start to flow there as the rosin bubbles. The heat sink keeps the inside portion of the pin cooler so you run less risk of having solder flow back up into the tube and or cracking the tube glass. You can buy a bunch of old tubes for very little money to practice on, I would not start by soldering a $100 tube.
> 
> Capillary action will draw a bit of the fresh solder into the pin, using two layers of rosin helps clean the inside of the pin so that the tube elements make better contact. Rosin cleans the metal so that solder will adhere. Please let me know if any steps are unclear and I will post more photos.



Thanks Tom!  What are you using for a heat sink?  Pic? (edit: nevermind...your pics just came through on the previous post)

I have some GE's to practice on if anybody needs some. They're about as crap as you can get. LOL!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 6, 2019)

Look in the first two photos, the first photo has a tiny hemostat attached to the pin, the second photo has an alligator clip, look for the red handles. Those are acting as heat sinks.

If this method does not work, I have gone as far as removing the old solder from the inside of the pins, and applying fresh solder but this is not for beginners and you need more equipment.


----------



## ilikepooters

bcowen said:


> Thanks Tom!  What are you using for a heat sink?  Pic? (edit: nevermind...your pics just came through on the previous post)
> 
> I have some GE's to practice on if anybody needs some. They're about as crap as you can get. LOL!!




That would be a waste of even the cheapest lead free chinese solder


----------



## bcowen

ilikepooters said:


> That would be a waste of even the cheapest lead free chinese solder



ROFL!


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## Paladin79 (Apr 6, 2019)

I removed the solder from the inside of the top four pins, you will see the wire inside some of them, and some are hollow, not in use. This is the size solder I use for such an application on the lower left, it is .031 diameter Kester. You do not want to use large diameter solder if you can help it. This goes easily inside the pins without getting all over the outside. This is just a demonstration, were I to solder, I would be working with the pin with the hemostat on it.

I doubt I have many tubes from the 20's but I certainly have tubes from the 30's; some of those solder joints have been around a long, long time so the solder joints are pretty ancient. The Russians may have used poorer techniques or lower quality solder for the Melz tubes from the 80's to need re-flowing as well.

One last thing, I have many pairs of hemostats but the ones I use for this application do not have a huge amount of grip strength, I would not run the risk of flattening out the inside portion of a tube pin so be careful if you buy brand new ones and keep the pin toward the end where there is less force applied.


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## Robert Padgett (Apr 6, 2019)

www.ebay.com/itm/1x-6S2S-6J5GT-6J5-VT94-Metal-base-Very-rare-USSR-12-1955/163618437406

A Melzonian single triode, but she will need a good comrade to work together...

www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6J5G-6C5G-VT-94-L63-CV1932-VR67-VT154-TO-6SN7GT-CV181-B65-tube-adapter/201563928382

and this is a better price...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> One last thing, I have many pairs of hemostats but the ones I use for this application do not have a huge amount of grip strength, I would not run the risk of flattening out the inside portion of a tube pin so be careful if you buy brand new ones and keep the pin toward the end where there is less force applied.



I've been using a pure copper alligator clip which seems to work OK. Was just wondering if you were using something fancier or jealousy-inducing. We use something a little more robust at work on the stainless panel welder -- 42 lb copper billet plates.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 6, 2019)

Here is a better view of the hemostats I use for this application. I just re-soldered the pins in this black glass after removing the old solder. I am using a fairly high heat tip with a good amount of surface area so I do not have to stay on each pin very long. As I said earlier your new solder joints need to be nice and shiny when done, if you get something that looks milky or cloudy, re-apply rosin and try again.

These hemostats have about a 30 degree bend so they stay out of the way so I really like them for this application. Copper is a better conductor of heat, just as it is with electricity but the surface area of these help and do the job for me.

This black glass tube was sold at a reduced price because it was considered microphonic. So far in my listening, it is now as solid as it can be. I used some solder with a bit of silver in it, I gave this one special care.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Here is a better view of the hemostats I use for this application. I just re-soldered the pins in this black glass after removing the old solder. I am using a fairly high heat tip with a good amount of surface area so I do not have to stay on each pin very long. As I said earlier your new solder joints need to be nice and shiny when done, if you get something that looks milky or cloudy, re-apply rosin and try again.
> 
> These hemostats have about a 30 degree bend so they stay out of the way so I really like them for this application. Copper is a better conductor of heat, just as it is with electricity but the surface area of these help and do the job for me.
> 
> This black glass tube was sold at a reduced price because it was considered microphonic. So far in my listening, it is now as solid as it can be. I used some solder with a bit of silver in it, I gave this one special care.



That's a _hemostat_?  I thought it was a roach clip.  

Making a note if it now...


----------



## Paladin79

Ok I checked my Melz and the solder work from the factory looks awful. It is grey and cracked. I removed that solder and used the good stuff. The pins seem a bit different than US pins as well. I can see why folks say you need to re-flow the solder on the Melz lol, good thing they sound great when they work.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I checked my Melz and the solder work from the factory looks awful. It is grey and cracked. I removed that solder and used the good stuff. The pins seem a bit different than US pins as well. I can see why folks say you need to re-flow the solder on the Melz lol, good thing they sound great when they work.



I measured the pins on the Melz at .08".  A handful of other 6SN7's all measure at .09" or more.  Doesn't seem like .01" would make that big a difference, but it sure can and especially if the socket contacts are stretched out to .09" from other 6SN7's.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I measured the pins on the Melz at .08".  A handful of other 6SN7's all measure at .09" or more.  Doesn't seem like .01" would make that big a difference, but it sure can and especially if the socket contacts are stretched out to .09" from other 6SN7's.



I did not pull out a micrometer but I could tell when I re-soldered them they were smaller. Luckily the silver solder i was using was a bit smaller than the .o31 as well. I need to get my second Melz done cause it probably looks as bad as the first, mine are from two different years.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> That's a _hemostat_?  I thought it was a roach clip.
> 
> Making a note if it now...


I am curious if you have seen issues of this type with the ribbed plate Fotons from 1951-52. I ask because I have noticed if a bit of whining and static sounds as the Fotons warm up, and then when I start playing music, all is well, and dead silent when I stop the music. Only on cold start-up has this been observed. Thanks, and this could be totally unrelated to the solder issues.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> I am curious if you have seen issues of this type with the ribbed plate Fotons from 1951-52. I ask because I have noticed if a bit of whining and static sounds as the Fotons warm up, and then when I start playing music, all is well, and dead silent when I stop the music. Only on cold start-up has this been observed. Thanks, and this could be totally unrelated to the solder issues.



I haven't had any issues with the Fotons.  A bit of a faint tinkling or pinging type sound when a tube is warming up is not at all unusual and no cause for concern (in and of itself). If it was a solder issue you'd likely hear it beyond the warm-up period.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 6, 2019)

bcowen said:


> A bit of a faint tinkling or pinging type sound when a tube is warming up is not at all unusual and no cause for concern





On the other hand, if you're seeing Tinky-winky while your tubes are warming -- seek help immediately!!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I haven't had any issues with the Fotons.  A bit of a faint tinkling or pinging type sound when a tube is warming up is not at all unusual and no cause for concern (in and of itself). If it was a solder issue you'd likely hear it beyond the warm-up period.



Different factory, different solder techniques perhaps. I re-soldered the pins on an old Tung Sol power tube and like to never got solder to stick, just older pins and lots of time had passed. My Melz had not given me any issues but may have eventually by the looks of the solder. Now they are good for many years to come.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> On the other hand, if you're seeing Tinky-winky while your tubes are warming -- seek help immediately!!



And some are beyond help, obviously.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 6, 2019)

If I didn't amuse myself, I'd go crazy!!


----------



## HellooooThar

Guys...I fixed my DAC. Something came over me tonight, and in a fit of frustration in plugged and unplugged it from USB about 150 times. Suddenly the box went *click* like it normally does when it gets a signal, and BAM: 32 bit, 192 decoding like it used to (I dont have any 32, 768 DSD files to test that out  ). No idea how my 150 power cycles explains a working DAC, but it does.


----------



## Ripper2860

Happy to hear you got it sorted out.  It gets power via USB, I believe.  Do you think it might be a spotty USB cable?


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> Guys...I fixed my DAC. Something came over me tonight, and in a fit of frustration in plugged and unplugged it from USB about 150 times. Suddenly the box went *click* like it normally does when it gets a signal, and BAM: 32 bit, 192 decoding like it used to (I dont have any 32, 768 DSD files to test that out  ). No idea how my 150 power cycles explains a working DAC, but it does.


Could the cable be intermittent?


----------



## HellooooThar (Apr 6, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> Could the cable be intermittent?



Interestingly, I tried three different cables. Also tried my laptop instead of my desktop, tried about 10 different USB ports on my desktop. No dice. Either the port on the DAC got fouled up somehow while it was sitting plugged in?? or it was off put by a power outage we had a few days ago. Either way, power cycles fixed it, or the insertions cleaning the connector. It is good, because the D10 has amazing sound for its size/price. Sometimes a little overhwelming -- too much detail, maybe not quite enough body or heft to the parts that should have it (I think things get a bit in your face sometimes and busy on 'phones like the HE400I). But I liked it enough to use it hours and hours a day. Voices are incredibly clear.


----------



## Keno18

HellooooThar said:


> Interestingly, I tried three different cables. Also tried my laptop instead of my desktop, tried about 10 different USB ports on my desktop. No dice. Either the port on the DAC got fouled up somehow while it was sitting plugged in?? or it was off put by a power outage we had a few days ago. Either way, power cycles fixed it, or the insertions cleaning the connector. It is good, because the D10 has amazing sound for its size/price. Sometimes a little overhwelming -- too much detail, maybe not quite enough body or heft to the parts that should have it (I think things get a bit in your face sometimes and busy on 'phones like the HE400I). But I liked it enough to use it hours and hours a day.


Just glad to hear it's OK. Technology is wonderful when it works


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> I haven't had any issues with the Fotons.  A bit of a faint tinkling or pinging type sound when a tube is warming up is not at all unusual and no cause for concern (in and of itself). If it was a solder issue you'd likely hear it beyond the warm-up period.


Cool...I looked at the pin ends, and on the one tube which make the noise had some tiny cracks in the solder tip, but still connected. It does clear up after it warms up, and if I don't put on the headphones, I don't hear anything


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> Cool...I looked at the pin ends, and on the one tube which make the noise had some tiny cracks in the solder tip, but still connected. It does clear up after it warms up, and if I don't put on the headphones, I don't hear anything



If you can see cracks in the solder with the naked eye, then chances are pretty high it's not a good joint. Might be right on the edge -- when the tube is cold the connection is marginalized causing noise, and as it warms up the metal expands enough to make a good (enough) connection between the wire and pin. If that's truly the case, sad to say it will only get worse with time unless you fix it.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If you can see cracks in the solder with the naked eye, then chances are pretty high it's not a good joint. Might be right on the edge -- when the tube is cold the connection is marginalized causing noise, and as it warms up the metal expands enough to make a good (enough) connection between the wire and pin. If that's truly the case, sad to say it will only get worse with time unless you fix it.



good advice. I was not happy with the grey, dull looking looking solder on my Melz and my pin repair setup was already in place.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 7, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I checked my Melz and the solder work from the factory looks awful. It is grey and cracked. I removed that solder and used the good stuff.



Ain't this just friggin incredible? Buying Russkie tubes with lousy workmanship @$100 apiece and then rebuilding them from scratch? Glass blower skills, anyone?


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Mr Trev said:


> I very, nearly, almost bought an amp solely because it used a tube like that…





bcowen said:


> LOL!!  Looks like it puts out almost as much power as a 6550....but also looks like a pain to implement with a bunch of shielding requirements. I love the antennas though.



Eeek. @Mr Trev  ...sir.... What the hell am I looking at? It kind of looks like a tube. That's missing its vacuum glass shielding. And the antennae? Um.... ?!



Paladin79 said:


> Sorry that was not a link, just the name of the seller I trust.  Than ks for giving credit where credit is due on the photo Bill, I have that one somewhere but it is not easily accessible so I was going by memory.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-1578-6N...m261891959e:g:g0sAAOSwiOZcTAXD&frcectupt=true
> 
> ...


@Paladin79 ... I never get tired of that image. It looks like you took a Bottlehead Crack and did THINGS to it. Beautiful, diesel-punk modifications. Nice.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 7, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Ain't this just friggin incredible? Buying Russkie tubes with lousy workmanship @$100 apiece and then rebuilding them from scratch? Glass blower skills, anyone?



LOL but they sound so good! Heck even Bill is starting to think so. Mine were not acting up but I doubt the Russians are using anything like Kester solder and it may be a different lead to tin content. What I replaced that solder with is quality material with 2% silver. I saw enough with a magnifier light, I have an inspection scope but no need to get that out. I also like to leave a tiny dome of solder on the pins since that is a wear point.

@Paladin79 ... I never get tired of that image. It looks like you took a Bottlehead Crack and did THINGS to it. Beautiful, diesel-punk modifications. Nice.

Thanks Scuba, I nearly went down that road again but decided to buy a pre-built amp instead. I have to be in the right frame of mind to put that much effort into something and spring is nearly here. Time to enjoy the outdoors and work more on my outdoor music setup.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> If you can see cracks in the solder with the naked eye, then chances are pretty high it's not a good joint. Might be right on the edge -- when the tube is cold the connection is marginalized causing noise, and as it warms up the metal expands enough to make a good (enough) connection between the wire and pin. If that's truly the case, sad to say it will only get worse with time unless you fix it.



Thanks, that is what I was figuring. As it is, I am going to continue listening to warmed-up tubes until I can no longer. They are not $100 tubes, they were $17 each, and play well above their weight. Since I buy cheap used tubes, I am happy that these two pins on one tube are the only ones I found. The American made Tung-Sols are well constructed, well soldered. 

For these Russian tubes, I am blaming the five-year plan at the Tashkent Foton plant, and the Commisar of Quality Control. C'mon Comrade, would Joe Stalin like this soldering?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Robert Padgett said:


> For these Russian tubes, I am blaming the five-year plan at the Tashkent Foton plant, and the Commisar of Quality Control. C'mon Comrade, would Joe Stalin like this soldering?



Maybe they are just Monday morning hangover tubes? Or Saturday afternoon go home soon tubes?


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Maybe they are just Monday morning hangover tubes? Or Saturday afternoon go home soon tubes?



Maybe just meant to last ten years instead of forty or so?  Some times you find out how long things last after that period of time is over. Some of my oldest tubes were very well made, but they were made back when the US manufactured a lot of electronics. Schiit is a good example of a company still doing some of that.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Ain't this just friggin incredible? Buying Russkie tubes with lousy workmanship @$100 apiece and then rebuilding them from scratch? Glass blower skills, anyone?



LOL!  Just further proof they don't make things like they used to.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 7, 2019)

Robert Padgett said:


> They are not $100 tubes, they were $17 each, and play well above their weight. Since I buy cheap used tubes, I am happy that these two pins on one tube are the only ones I found.



You obviously need some $100 tubes that would make the time spent soldering worthwhile.


----------



## Paladin79

I had to do the same thing to a couple USA made tubes, of course they were from the 1940's.


----------



## Robert Padgett

We joke about 1950s era Russian tubes, but in reality, if these tubes were meant for ICBMs, then they were designed for a short, one-way trip. 
Thank goodness that they never got that opportunity. 
I like the fact that Russia is turning weapons of war into peaceful uses...except in arguments about Russian tubes, which get heated.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 7, 2019)

Robert Padgett said:


> if these tubes were meant for ICBMs



I am trying to imagine what an amplification dual triod with glass enclosure would do in an ICBM. Unless, of course, those reckless Russians had pilots in them, who'd have to communicate with the Center?


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I am trying to imagine what an amplification dual triode with glass enclosure would do in an ICBM. Unless, of course, those reckless Russians had pilots in them, who'd have to communicate with the Center?


I may have used editorial license, but I found in my research: 

"The 6SN7GT came just in time for America’s involvement in World-War II. The heavy usage of the 6SN7GT wasn’t in conventional radio equipment, but rather in radar. *Radar had many pulse-handling circuits where the low plate resistance and compact footprint of the 6SN7GT were ideal. *Most of the wartime American radar sets used dozens of 6SN7GTs. By the way, many 6SN7GTs made during the early years of the war were marked only “VT-231″, the Army Signal Corps designation. 
The glut of war-surplus parts after the war included incredible numbers of 6SN7GTs. Just as the war wound-down, t*wo brand-new industries became heavy users of dual triodes: electronic computers and television. 6,550 out of the 18,800 tubes in the ENIAC computer were 6SN7GTs. *
Early televisions had up to six 6SN7GTs each. And, of course in audio applications, from movie theater amplifiers to mixing boards to P.A. amplifiers to the early HiFi amplifiers, the 6SN7GT was widely used." 
--www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode

Therefore the tubes may have been used in radar, or in early computers which the Soviets were developing in the Post-WWII or Cold War period. Maybe the Melz 1578 didn't ride on the rocket, but its industrial applications were much more than communication and audiophile stereo applications.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 7, 2019)

Robert Padgett said:


> the tubes may have been used in radar, or in early computers which the Soviets were developing in the Post-WWII or Cold War period. Maybe the Melz 1578 didn't ride on the rocket, but its industrial applications were much more than communication and audiophile stereo applications.



Thank you, that's quite enlightening!

Regarding Melz 1578, that is odd to see the 1578 marking on a tube with MELZ logo. According to Journal of Audiophiles Association of Russia, whilst first Soviet 6Н8С were made in MELZ in 1948 (first marked as 6Н8М), and then were redesigned and tested in Leningrad at Svetlana factory and then transferred for production to Saratov, Novosibirsk, and Tashkent, A special designation of tubes - 1578 were produced by Saratov Reflector factory only in 1961 and 1962 in limited quantities. They were a special order of the nuclear industry in the USSR and they were used in automatic control equipment of the reactors. They had to have matching triodes (sides) and serve at least 5000 hours, hence their power was reduced from 2.5W to 1.5W. EDIT: The tubes made by MELZ with the round holes were produced also in very limited quantities to reduce heat as they were designed for the first Soviet supercomputer. So, go figure - according to this account, round holes are MELZ, and 1578 are Saratov Reflector, both for different applications - but maybe they are wrong. I have also read a testimony of an audiophile in Moscow who personally went to MELZ 23 March 2007 after closure of the parts of it that were producing tubes and spent a day in the rubbish deposit collecting 6Н8С which were thrown away and collected "a large box" and took it away. He said some of them were marked "1578"...

EDIT: same Journal writes that 6Н8С made by MELZ has a nickel-plated brass ring at the base.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> Therefore the tubes may have been used in radar, or in early computers which the Soviets were developing in the Post-WWII or Cold War period. Maybe the Melz 1578 didn't ride on the rocket, but its industrial applications were much more than communication and audiophile stereo applications.



Surely Stalin made good use of them in torture devices at the gulags...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 7, 2019)

You're partially correct, Bill.  What you failed to mention was that Stalin used GE tubes and early prototype Beats HPs as torture devices.  No Russian tubes were involved in his horrendous and criminal torturing of his own people.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You're partially correct, Bill.  What you failed to mention was that Stalin used GE tubes and early prototype Beats HPs as torture devices.  No Russian tubes were involved in his horrendous and criminal torturing of his own people.



Partially?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 7, 2019)

Well, if you insist...

You are completely wrong, as usual, Bill.  Pull your head out of your arse and stop posting useless and incorrect nonsense!!  I feel dumber for having read your post.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> You're partially correct, Bill.  What you failed to mention was that Stalin used GE tubes and early prototype Beats HPs as torture devices.  No Russian tubes were involved in his horrendous and criminal torturing of his own people.



I beg to differ. Putin is still exporting Sovtek valves, which are designed to monitor Americans closely so he will know where to deploy resources during the next election.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 7, 2019)

Robert -- My post was directed at Bill and his comment that Stalin used Russian tubes to torture his people.  How does your post support Bill's assertion and contradict mine?  While your assessment is likely true, that microphonic Russian tubes are used to eaves-drop on American citizens for political purposes, it is completely unrelated to the subject matter of the post you are begging to differ on.


----------



## Robert Padgett (Apr 7, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Robert -- My post was directed at Bill and his comment that Stalin used Russian tubes to torture his people.  How does your post support Bill's assertion and contradict mine?  While your assessment is likely true, that microphonic Russian tubes are used to eaves-drop on American citizens for political purposes, it is completely unrelated to the subject matter of the post you are begging to differ on.


I KNEW those microphonic tubes were secretly transmitting back to Moscow...Heavy Duty aluminum foil on my walls ought to keep me safe

OTK--transliterates from Cyrillic to mean, "We Hear You"


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Surely Stalin made good use of them in torture devices at the gulags...


And we wondered why they persecuted "Pus-sy Riot"...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I feel dumber....



That's not technically possible.

But we can pretend.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 7, 2019)

Really?  That's all you got?  I must say that I am a bit disappointed. 

On  a tube-related front -- I ordered a 12AU7 to 6SN7 adapter so I can start rolling these awesome 12AU7 tubes in Lyr 3 too.


----------



## Robert Padgett

@Ripper2860 --12au7?

Is that next new shiny object...I need a schedule to keep up... I haven't even gotten to 6CG7 yet...(I secretly lust for things that don't require adapters. When you are a "tube-roller On The Cheap" we have to keep accessories budgets limited.)

I am still trying to recover from buying four socket-savers to get all my valves up and out of the Valhalla 2... and then the loctal Frankentubes...my head is swimming.


----------



## ScubaMan2017 (Apr 8, 2019)

Mister Stoddard! They're throwing spitballs in the back row againnnnn!
@Jason Stoddard ... _*looks up from his workbench and his order-desk (see image)..*_.
(source)


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Really?  That's all you got?  I must say that I am a bit disappointed.
> 
> On  a tube-related front -- I ordered a 12AU7 to 6SN7 adapter so I can start rolling these awesome 12AU7 tubes in Lyr 3 too.



Since the first 6sn7 I heard in place of a 12AU7 i have always gone in that direction, never back. I must have tried a dozen different 12Au7's since they are native to the Bottlehead Crack but it could be I just did not find the great ones. (Tried Mullard, Telefunken, Webcor, Tung Sol etc.)


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> Since the first 6sn7 I heard in place of a 12AU7 I have always gone in that direction, never back. I must have tried a dozen different 12Au7's since they are native to the Bottlehead Crack but it could be I just did not find the great ones. (Tried Mullard, Telefunken, Webcor, Tung-Sol, etc.)



Thank you @Paladin79. Your experience and advice have once again saved me from falling into a rabbit-hole of another tube-type to explore. I too love the sound of the 6SN7, and further research is not necessary.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Aha! Now, MY first dual 6J5! 6С2С Novosibirsk '79, matched pair, same date NOS. Let us see how they burn in, but resolution, soundstage and depth are hinting to me that there is no way back to dual triodes. Bought more pairs from the same factory today, '58, and metal base '54. Will take ages to arrive. But my shipment from US comes on Saturday, with 2 pairs of various 6J5s.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 9, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Aha! Now, MY first dual 6J5! 6С2С Novosibirsk '79, matched pair, same date NOS. Let us see how they burn in, but resolution, soundstage and depth are hinting to me that there is no way back to dual triodes. Bought more pairs from the same factory today, '58, and metal base '54. Will take ages to arrive. But my shipment from US comes on Saturday, with 2 pairs of various 6J5s.



Very nice!!  I have tried 8 or 9 pairs to date but only American made versions like Sylvania and RCA but I will have to watch for other brands on Ebay. I get a bit more channel separation with the single triodes and finally found pairs that rival some of my favorite 6SN7's on overall sound stage. I am currently experimenting with 7A4's, the loktal version of the 6j5 as well as VT-94D's, the military 6j5GT's that were glass enclosed vacuum tubes instead of metal.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-RARE-M...731407?hash=item2a42a4ed8f:g:w3EAAOSwxH1T1BSR

The Russian tubes are reasonable in price, I will be anxious to find out what you think of them. Some of the American made VT94D's can be $20-$25 per tube for matched pairs. The Russians are listing some good info from what I see on their labels.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Aha! Now, MY first dual 6J5! 6С2С Novosibirsk '79, matched pair, same date NOS. Let us see how they burn in, but resolution, soundstage and depth are hinting to me that there is no way back to dual triodes. Bought more pairs from the same factory today, '58, and metal base '54. Will take ages to arrive. But my shipment from US comes on Saturday, with 2 pairs of various 6J5s.



Welcome aboard!  I listen to my duals on my Vali 2 every night, as my bedroom music, and even through speakers the channel separation is very obvious--headphones are binaural...


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Aha! Now, MY first dual 6J5! 6С2С Novosibirsk '79, matched pair, same date NOS. Let us see how they burn in, but resolution, soundstage and depth are hinting to me that there is no way back to dual triodes. Bought more pairs from the same factory today, '58, and metal base '54. Will take ages to arrive. But my shipment from US comes on Saturday, with 2 pairs of various 6J5s.



You and @Paladin79  are bad for my wallet.  

And gotta love this. You can now get your Russian tubes from China.  LOL!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 10, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thank you once more for sharing. I will start my dual 65J quest from a pair of Philco and Super Silverstone (look the same), a matched pair of RCA, and a pair of 6S2S mabe by Novosibirsk factory in 1979. Then I shall see (or not...).


and all promises to myself forsaken again... bought two batches of old Russkie tubes: one from Ukraine, one from remote place in Russia, including 6H8C: a couple of Fotons and a couple MELZ, and 6C2C from Soyuz in Novosibirsk, different years in the 50ties. The guy in Russia is offering me УО-186 triods at reasonable prices, but - Base Europe 4-Pin; Filament Vf 4 Volts / If 1 Ampere / Direct - where do I stick them in??? No adapters known? Anyone's guess?


----------



## bcowen

I can tell you where I _wouldn't _stick them:  the Vali 2.  Can't honestly say which you'd fry first: the tube by hitting its 4 volt filament with the Vali's 6.3 volts, or the Vali by hitting it with 1 amp of heater current draw.  An adapter can only work if the filament voltage is the same AND the heater current is within the max value the amp can handle.  A 12AU7 / 12AX7 / 12AT7 tube works because they are designed to operate at either a 6.3v or 12.6v filament voltage.  A Vali adapter would simply wire the pins for 6.3 volt operation.  There are not many triodes out here that are designed to operate at more than one voltage....


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## Paladin79 (Apr 10, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I can tell you where I _wouldn't _stick them:  the Vali 2.  Can't honestly say which you'd fry first: the tube by hitting its 4 volt filament with the Vali's 6.3 volts, or the Vali by hitting it with 1 amp of heater current draw.  An adapter can only work if the filament voltage is the same AND the heater current is within the max value the amp can handle.  A 12AU7 / 12AX7 / 12AT7 tube works because they are designed to operate at either a 6.3v or 12.6v filament voltage.  A Vali adapter would simply wire the pins for 6.3 volt operation.  There are not many triodes out here that are designed to operate at more than one voltage....



That was very well said Bill.

This is part of my plan to be nice to you in case you get tired of looking at a particular Cary amp one day.


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## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 10, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I can tell you where I _wouldn't _stick them:  the Vali 2.  Can't honestly say which you'd fry first: the tube by hitting its 4 volt filament with the Vali's 6.3 volts, or the Vali by hitting it with 1 amp of heater current draw.  An adapter can only work if the filament voltage is the same AND the heater current is within the max value the amp can handle.  A 12AU7 / 12AX7 / 12AT7 tube works because they are designed to operate at either a 6.3v or 12.6v filament voltage.  A Vali adapter would simply wire the pins for 6.3 volt operation.  There are not many triodes out here that are designed to operate at more than one voltage....



Thank you. I assumed smth similar - although I am not an electrician. It is just that I found this Russian guy deep in the Russian realm and he had some tubes that looked genuine in pics, and somewhat reasonable prices as compared to the smart asses on ebay. He has never sent tubes abroad so I had to guide him in the Russian post system. Then, he did have a PayPal account as part of his Russian credit card benefits, but did not know how to access it, so, more work for me. Finally, he could not believe that I just wired him $120 on PayPal, gave him my shipping address, and asked to ship the tubes - without any guarantee. So he's gone soft and uncovered all his hidden treasures to me - for which I have little use, it seems. Anyway, the Soyuz 6C2C '79 I just got from Ukraine are slowly uncovering their potential in the dual adapter. Every hour is better as they burn in. Boy, they do "sing" - as Russians put it. What space, resolution, balance, speed, control - oh my. Wait until I get them from '62, '58, and finally '54 metal base - all same factory (Novosibirsk - that's where Leningrad Svetlana evacuated during the WWII). The Soviets have adopted new standards in 1970+ and the consensus in Russia is that since then the musical qualities of the tubes have gone down significantly. But that is a story for another day.


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## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 10, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> in case you get tired of looking at a particular Cary amp one day.



Dear Lord, now that I spent $700 on more than 30 pieces of them bloody tubes and adapters alone in less than half a year, and times more on other related stuff, I will NOT think of yet another amp. and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.


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## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Dear Lord, now that I spent $700 on them bloody tubes and adapters alone in less than half a year, and times more on other related stuff, I will NOT think of yet another amp. and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.


I pick up an amp this weekend that uses eight tubes but I will get an extra set with it.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I pick up an amp this weekend that uses eight tubes but I will get an extra set with it.



Whistles with fingers stuck in the ears so deep that eventually the eardrums will be ruptured and no more HPs, tubes and other such will be needed


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> That was very well said Bill.
> 
> This is part of my plan to be nice to you in case you get tired of looking at a particular Cary amp one day.



LOL!!!


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thank you. I assumed smth similar - although I am not an electrician. It is just that I found this Russian guy deep in the Russian realm and he had some tubes that looked genuine in pics, and somewhat reasonable prices as compared to the smart asses on ebay. He has never sent tubes abroad so I had to guide him in the Russian post system. Then, he did have a PayPal account as part of his Russian credit card benefits, but did not know how to access it, so, more work for me. Finally, he could not believe that I just wired him $120 on PayPal, gave him my shipping address, and asked to ship the tubes - without any guarantee. So he's gone soft and uncovered all his hidden treasures to me - for which I have little use, it seems. Anyway, the Soyuz 6C2C '79 I just got from Ukraine are slowly uncovering their potential in the dual adapter. Every hour is better as they burn in. Boy, they do "sing" - as Russians put it. What space, resolution, balance, speed, control - oh my. Wait until I get them from '62, '58, and finally '54 metal base - all same factory (Novosibirsk - that's where Leningrad Svetlana evacuated during the WWII). The Soviets have adopted new standards in 1970+ and the consensus in Russia is that since then the musical qualities of the tubes have gone down significantly. But that is a story for another day.



Interesting stuff. I've never heard a Russian 6C2C, so be very interested in your impressions once you get the full lineage in hand. Might have to try some myself.  I sold some tubes so have a few vacant holes in the stash bin, and I gave up on any permanent reduction in stash level....just not practical.  



Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Whistles with fingers stuck in the ears so deep that eventually the eardrums will be ruptured and no more HPs, tubes and other such will be needed


  Doesn't work for long.  Your ears will heal.  LOL!


----------



## Blotto80

I picked up a secondhand Vali 2 last week to go with a new pair of HD800S's that I got for a song after selling off all my desktop gear and swearing I was only going to buy IEMs going forward (That lasted all of 6 months, Lol). I've never had a tube amp before and was bit shocked at how bright the Vali 2 was with the stock tube (USA 6DJ8) I grabbed a couple of tubes off a guy locally while I wait for my JJ E88CC gold to arrive.

Westinghouse 6DJ8 - West German. I like this one, it retains the soundstage of the stock while smoothing things out a bit at the top end. The bass is very present with this guy. 

Rogers 6DJ8/ECC88 - Holland. This one is more along what I expected from a tube amp. The staging shrinks a bit and the bass is less pronounced than the Westinghouse (bass is similar to stock) but the highs take on what I can only describe as a lush "tubey" sound that is very pleasing.

I flip-flop back and forth between them and I do enjoy both of them, I've got the Westinghouse in right now and "Inertia Creeps" by Massive Attack is thumping but with the Rogers in, the same song is more liquid and musical.


----------



## Paladin79

I am getting ready to try some Westinghouse in the Vali tonight but mine will be 6sn7's. I found a couple NOS that I have heard good things about. I got a matched pair but I like to listen to them individually in a couple amps before consigning the pair to a Freya.


----------



## bcowen

Blotto80 said:


> I picked up a secondhand Vali 2 last week to go with a new pair of HD800S's that I got for a song after selling off all my desktop gear and swearing I was only going to buy IEMs going forward (That lasted all of 6 months, Lol). I've never had a tube amp before and was bit shocked at how bright the Vali 2 was with the stock tube (USA 6DJ8) I grabbed a couple of tubes off a guy locally while I wait for my JJ E88CC gold to arrive.
> 
> Westinghouse 6DJ8 - West German. I like this one, it retains the soundstage of the stock while smoothing things out a bit at the top end. The bass is very present with this guy.
> 
> ...



A West German Westinghouse, huh?  Can you post a pic? That may be a Telefunken in disguise...


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## Blotto80 (Apr 12, 2019)

bcowen said:


> A West German Westinghouse, huh?  Can you post a pic? That may be a Telefunken in disguise...



Ugghh. I don't know why that didn't post my pics. Lets try again.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am getting ready to try some Westinghouse in the Vali tonight but mine will be 6sn7's. I found a couple NOS that I have heard good things about. I got a matched pair but I like to listen to them individually in a couple amps before consigning the pair to a Freya.



The D-getter version is well liked by many over in the Lyr 3 tube rollers thread....


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## Paladin79 (Apr 12, 2019)

bcowen said:


> The D-getter version is well liked by many over in the Lyr 3 tube rollers thread....



I never really had a reason to get a Lyr 3 but have tried most all other Schiit equipment. I should be involved in some double blind tube HP amp testing soon and I will hear one in the mix. The majority of gear will be Class A and that is where my preferences lie.

The Westinghouse tubes are very nice right out of the box and I already have a set nestled inside the Freya along with a set of CBS Hytrons. Those feeding a headphone amp with the Melz 1578 are about as good as I have had headphone gear sounding for my tastes at least. I like the bass and mids of the Westinghouse and they are well matched so I needed to do very little adjusting. It is nice to use the vali for first impressions though, it is a handy little amp.

Oh Ripper pointed these out to me and they are the top D getter, a nice tube to score at $16 each. 

My next quest will most likely be for the Western Electric 231A, another version of the 6080, 5998, 6AS7G.


----------



## bcowen

Blotto80 said:


> Ugghh. I don't know why that didn't post my pics. Lets try again.



Thanks for the pics!  From what I can see there is no diamond molded into the glass at the bottom between the pins, so not a Telefunken. Doesn't mean it can't be a great tube though.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I never really had a reason to get a Lyr 3 but have tried most all other Schiit equipment. I should be involved in some double blind tube HP amp testing soon and I will hear one in the mix. The majority of gear will be Class A and that is where my preferences lie.
> 
> The Westinghouse tubes are very nice right out of the box and I already have a set nestled inside the Freya along with a set of CBS Hytrons. Those feeding a headphone amp with the Melz 1578 are about as good as I have had headphone gear sounding for my tastes at least. I like the bass and mids of the Westinghouse and they are well matched so I needed to do very little adjusting. It is nice to use the vali for first impressions though, it is a handy little amp.
> 
> ...



What amp are you going to use the 231A in?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> What amp are you going to use the 231A in?


A Bottlehead Crack.


----------



## bcowen

The starter stash of 7A4's just arrived.  Unfortunately the adapter just arrived in NY, and will spend the requisite week on vacation there before proceeding south. Maybe next weekend I'll be able to give them a whirl.

Round black plate, but same squared off bottle top as Frankentube. What to call it....we already have Frankenminion.  Only one triode instead of 2, but HalfenFrank just doesn't flow.  Since it's closely related, how about Fran*kin*tube? 

See what I did there?  LOL!!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 13, 2019)

bcowen said:


> The starter stash of 7A4's just arrived.  Unfortunately the adapter just arrived in NY, and will spend the requisite week on vacation there before proceeding south. Maybe next weekend I'll be able to give them a whirl.
> 
> Round black plate, but same squared off bottle top as Frankentube. What to call it....we already have Frankenminion.  Only one triode instead of 2, but HalfenFrank just doesn't flow.  Since it's closely related, how about Fran*kin*tube?
> 
> See what I did there?  LOL!!!


  LOL Ah the troubles that come with vacuum tubes!  What to name them?

  Those are very good sounding tubes as you will no doubt discover once your adapter arrives. There appears to be quite a few of these out there and the price is not outrageous. I now have a dedicated area in my home shop for tubes. They are safely protected in surrounding foam rubber six to a box. I wanted to be able to test and re-flow tube pins in the same area and then safely protect them when done. I keep the original boxes but I change tubes out so often that this made more sense to me.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Those are very good sounding tubes as you will no doubt discover once your adapter arrives.



I have full confidence in your recommendations, Tom.  But I have a few more coming just in case your "very good" turns out to be totally awesome.  LOL!


----------



## Ripper2860

Hoarder!!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Hoarder!!!



Had to get some before you took notice and cleaned out the world supply.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

has anyone tried the multi-converter adapter from our friend xulingmrs:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-gold-p...L7-Multi-tube-converter-adapter-/191683185290
looks very tempting


----------



## Mr Trev

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> has anyone tried the multi-converter adapter from our friend xulingmrs:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-gold-p...L7-Multi-tube-converter-adapter-/191683185290
> looks very tempting



Interesting concept… totally ass-backwards for the Vali2 though. I suppose one could go through the infinte loop of adapters (6dj8>6sn7>multi-adapter in 6dj8 mode)


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Mr Trev said:


> Interesting concept… totally ass-backwards for the Vali2 though. I suppose one could go through the infinte loop of adapters (6dj8>6sn7>multi-adapter in 6dj8 mode)


that is eaxcly what I wonder about. only 2 adapters tho'


----------



## Robert Padgett

You have to be working with an amp which uses 6sn7 tubes, and then use whatever. Not designed for 6922 socket use.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Robert Padgett said:


> You have to be working with an amp which uses 6sn7 tubes, and then use whatever. Not designed for 6922 socket use.


thank you. I was just thinking of buying Lyr 3...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I have full confidence in your recommendations, Tom.  But I have a few more coming just in case your "very good" turns out to be totally awesome.  LOL!


I bought a bunch before telling you Bill. I know how you are.

My good may be  your “I should have my head examined if I ever listen to THIS guy again!!!!!”


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> that is eaxcly what I wonder about. only 2 adapters tho'



Double-adapting is illegal.  @Paladin79 only gets away with it because he bribes the tube cops.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I bought a bunch before telling you Bill. I know how you are.
> 
> My good may be  your “I should have my head examined if I ever listen to THIS guy again!!!!!”



If I don't like them I figured I'd pawn them off to some unsuspecting newbie by saying _you_ recommended them.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If I don't like them I figured I'd pawn them off to some unsuspecting newbie by saying _you_ recommended them.



I need to start working on plausible deniability. I believe everything I know about tubes I learned from you Bill, I did have a couple things follow me home though.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I need to start working on plausible deniability. I believe everything I know about tubes I learned from you Bill, I did have a couple things follow me home though.



Sweeeeeet!  I see lit filaments.  How's it sound?


----------



## Paladin79

It is starting to warm up, I will definitely need to change my speakers at some point. Mine do not do the amp justice right now, the sound he demo'd was to die for.  After about a half hour it is really starting to come around or my music quality got better lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It is starting to warm up, I will definitely need to change my speakers at some point. Mine do not do the amp justice right now, the sound he demo'd was to die for.  After about a half hour it is really starting to come around or my music quality got better lol.



Awesome. And the tube rolling possibilities make Schiit stuff look like junior varsity.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Awesome. And the tube rolling possibilities make Schiit stuff look like junior varsity.



perhaps it does. but I have arrived at the straight short line to the endgame. The adapter for 6J5 did it for me. and today, 

2 old dirty RCA Radiotrons from 1939 and 1940. Sure I still have some pairs of old Russian 6S2S, a couple of MELZ 6N8S and similar stuff coming in the mail. I also have those Soyuz 6S2S from 1979, which are wonderful. 2 single 6J5 triods in the Vali 2 to AKG 702 do it for me - I am getting the sound quality and signature that I enjoy, and never before thought it existed (andwhat it consisted of). Thank you all for guidance. I will be writing a little more on my way to this point, but endgame it is. After all, my purpose has always been listening to music, not tube rolling. Sure, I will still stick in some dual triodes 6SN7, 6C8G, and maybe some miniature noval tubes occasionally. Maybe, if I need a second system, I'll get a Lyr 3. But otherwise, I am now in Jason Stoddard's Onsanity.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Double-adapting is illegal.  @Paladin79 only gets away with it because he bribes the tube cops.



Using socket savers, which are a passthrough is not double adapting, so a Loctal adapter is also a passthrough. No doubling adapters in this thread


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> perhaps it does. but I have arrived at the straight short line to the endgame. The adapter for 6J5 did it for me. and today,
> 
> 2 old dirty RCA Radiotrons from 1939 and 1940. Sure I still have some pairs of old Russian 6S2S, a couple of MELZ 6N8S and similar stuff coming in the mail. I also have those Soyuz 6S2S from 1979, which are wonderful. 2 single 6J5 triods in the Vali 2 to AKG 702 do it for me - I am getting the sound quality and signature that I enjoy, and never before thought it existed (andwhat it consisted of). Thank you all for guidance. I will be writing a little more on my way to this point, but endgame it is. After all, my purpose has always been listening to music, not tube rolling. Sure, I will still stick in some dual triodes 6SN7, 6C8G, and maybe some miniature noval tubes occasionally. Maybe, if I need a second system, I'll get a Lyr 3. But otherwise, I am now in Jason Stoddard's Onsanity.



I am glad the adapter is working well for you, I still prefer the separation of single triodes, and finding the perfect pair that suit your ears is part of the fun. My favorites to date are Sylvania's, VT 94D's but you can find the civilian version with three hole long black plates on occasion as well.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> perhaps it does. but I have arrived at the straight short line to the endgame. The adapter for 6J5 did it for me. and today,
> 
> 2 old dirty RCA Radiotrons between 1939 and 1940. Sure I still have some pairs of old Russian 6S2S, a couple of MELZ 6N8S and similar stuff coming in the mail. I also have those Soyuz 6S2S from 1979, which are wonderful. 2 single 6J5 triods in the Vali 2 to AKG 702 do it for me - I am getting the sound quality and signature that I enjoy, and never before thought, it existed (and what it consisted of). Thank you all for guidance. I will be writing a little more on my way to this point, but endgame it is. After all, my purpose has always been listening to music, not tube rolling. Sure, I will still stick in some dual triodes 6SN7, 6C8G, and maybe some miniature noval tubes occasionally. Maybe, if I need a second system, I'll get a Lyr 3. But otherwise, I am now in Jason Stoddard's Onsanity.




The Vali 2 is a great "test platform" as @Paladin79 has pointed out. Its sonic quality with a miniature, a dual adapter, or a single 6SN7 tube will show you the potential of a given envelope. A Lyr 3 is a Vali 2 on steroids, also a tube-hybrid (with added Stoddard genii like Continuity and Coherence)  so if you like Vali, you may love Lyr 3. I chose the Valhalla 2 because I had purchased a matched pair of Foton 6H8C and I wanted a "Pure" OTL tube HP amplifier.
Other folks will tell you that if 'Tubiness' is what you are looking for then a DIY Bottlehead may be a better choice. I have never been interested in electronics and learning to solder, so I chose the "Plug and Play" option with a track-record since 2015. Having never heard a Bottlehead, I am not qualified to compare, but I am VERY well pleased with everything about the Valhalla, and now have no desire for a Saga, or Freya, as I use the VH2 as my tube-buffer for the Sprout100 speakers.

I will also echo a concern voiced by @Paladin79 when I was deciding which way to go...With 300-ohm Sennheiser 6XX, the volume at full maximum sounds like it could use a "little more", so I can only imagine what 600-ohm HPs would sound like. Not to worry, not all Music likes being "loud" and certain tubes are not 'pristine' at full volume. The Fotons, after over 100-hours of Burn-in, and fully warmed-up can handle full max volume into the 6XX and are great sounding.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> perhaps it does. but I have arrived at the straight short line to the endgame. The adapter for 6J5 did it for me. and today,
> 
> 2 old dirty RCA Radiotrons from 1939 and 1940. Sure I still have some pairs of old Russian 6S2S, a couple of MELZ 6N8S and similar stuff coming in the mail. I also have those Soyuz 6S2S from 1979, which are wonderful. 2 single 6J5 triods in the Vali 2 to AKG 702 do it for me - I am getting the sound quality and signature that I enjoy, and never before thought it existed (andwhat it consisted of). Thank you all for guidance. I will be writing a little more on my way to this point, but endgame it is. After all, my purpose has always been listening to music, not tube rolling. Sure, I will still stick in some dual triodes 6SN7, 6C8G, and maybe some miniature noval tubes occasionally. Maybe, if I need a second system, I'll get a Lyr 3. But otherwise, I am now in Jason Stoddard's Onsanity.



1) I'm not buying any more tubes
2) These are the last tubes I'm buying
3) I'm done
4) Any improvement beyond this would be so negligible it would be irrelevant

Heard it all, wishful thinking, never lasts, you're addicted, give up.

 

Seriously, glad to hear you've found the magic combo!  I think we all search for it, just hard to know when we've reached it. Looks like you have which is very cool.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> Using socket savers, which are a passthrough is not double adapting, so a Loctal adapter is also a passthrough. No doubling adapters in this thread



Nitpicker.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Nitpicker.





bcowen said:


> 1) I'm not buying any more tubes
> 2) These are the last tubes I'm buying
> 3) I'm done
> 4) Any improvement beyond this would be so negligible it would be irrelevant
> ...



I am grateful to have bypassed many choices and based partially upon your indirect recommendation, I have found the end-game pair of tubes for my listening pleasure-- 6H8C Fotons dated X-51 with ribbed plates from our Russian friend El-Rayder..."1812-Overture" by the Cincinnati Pops has sealed the deal this morning.  And to back up my Soviets, two more pair of US-made Tung Sol 6SN7gt...which were dirt cheap, yet still with plenty of Gitty-up and Go left in them. 

I am not going to make any solemn vows about buying any more tubes, but One Day at a Time, we can manage the addiction. Still calling me are 6CG7 RCA-clear tops and a pair of Heeren-plant RCA 6DJ8 which might be added soon to the roster...
Barring pre-mature failure, these Fotons were built for a long and happy life as one of 60,000 valves used in the first Soviet electronic computer, which went online in 1950, during the height of Stalin's regime. 
Dasvidanya, Comrade


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> ...the first Soviet electronic computer, which went online in 1950...



I thought the online date of the first Soviet computer was 2050.  Do you have proof of this?

LOL!!!!!!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 14, 2019)

I am asking Bill for defunct power tubes so I do not have to use good tubes in my latest headphone rack build. This is a quartered oak rack. I saw a sample of one yesterday so I built one today. An easy project for anyone with two boards of the same size, a hole saw, some octal sockets, and a few screws. Total build time, maybe two hours actual work.  Sockets are hot glued in place and I am using a dab of Locktite glue on the tubes so they are very secure but it lets me replace them as needed.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am asking Bill for defunct power tubes so I do not have to use good tubes in my latest headphone rack build. This is a quartered oak rack. I saw a sample of one yesterday so I built one today. An easy project for anyone with two boards of the same size, a hole saw, some octal sockets, and a few screws. Total build time, maybe two hours actual work.  Sockets are hot glued in place and I am using a dab of Locktite glue on the tubes so they are very secure but it lets me replace them as needed.



Now that is just downright _cool_.  You didn't tell me what the 'art' project was, LOL!  Now I'm wishing I hadn't tossed those crappy sounding Chinese 845's a while back....there could have been a use for them.

Now you just need to drill a hole or two in the bottom of the tube base (without breaking the glass) and stick some 9-volt battery powered LED's in there.


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## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Now that is just downright _cool_.  You didn't tell me what the 'art' project was, LOL!  Now I'm wishing I hadn't tossed those crappy sounding Chinese 845's a while back....there could have been a use for them.
> 
> Now you just need to drill a hole or two in the bottom of the tube base (without breaking the glass) and stick some 9-volt battery powered LED's in there.


I considered that, I also thought about adding a filament circuit but LED’s would be easier.


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## Mr Trev

Robert Padgett said:


> I am grateful to have bypassed many choices and based partially upon your indirect recommendation, I have found the end-game pair of tubes for my listening pleasure-- 6H8C Fotons dated X-51 with ribbed plates from our Russian friend El-Rayder..."1812-Overture" by the Cincinnati Pops has sealed the deal this morning.  And to back up my Soviets, two more pair of US-made Tung Sol 6SN7gt...which were dirt cheap, yet still with plenty of Gitty-up and Go left in them.
> 
> I am not going to make any solemn vows about buying any more tubes, but One Day at a Time, we can manage the addiction. Still calling me are 6CG7 RCA-clear tops and a pair of Heeren-plant RCA 6DJ8 which might be added soon to the roster...
> Barring pre-mature failure, these Fotons were built for a long and happy life as one of 60,000 valves used in the first Soviet electronic computer, which went online in 1950, during the height of Stalin's regime.
> Dasvidanya, Comrade



I dunno, maybe you should hold off on the 6CG7 cleartop. I'd hate for you to finally get one and find out that inexpensive f---er is the one true tube and you wasted all your time and money on all the others you've bought, causing you to rage quit the hobby in a massive cloud of shattered glass


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## Robert Padgett

Mr Trev said:


> I dunno, maybe you should hold off on the 6CG7 cleartop. I'd hate for you to finally get one and find out that inexpensive f---er is the one true tube and you wasted all your time and money on all the others you've bought, causing you to rage quit the hobby in a massive cloud of shattered glass



Not to worry @Mr Trev, my total expenditure on ALL my tubes is still under $100--if we exclude the new production Telefunken E88CC-TF I bought before I even owned a Vali 2 ($48). My taste for "inexpensive F---ers" is my trademark as the Affordable Audiophile. I don't think $30 for a pair of clear-tops will break the bank, and if they are the "One True and Holy Grail" in tubes, I will be only shattering tubes as I drop them...


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## Mr Trev

Robert Padgett said:


> Not to worry @Mr Trev, my total expenditure on ALL my tubes is still under $100--if we exclude the new production Telefunken E88CC-TF I bought before I even owned a Vali 2 ($48). My taste for "inexpensive F---ers" is my trademark as the Affordable Audiophile. I don't think $30 for a pair of clear-tops will break the bank, and if they are the "One True and Holy Grail" in tubes, I will be only shattering tubes as I drop them...



Well, I can't say the cleartop is better sounding than the 12au7 Yugofunken or Mouse Ears, but I will say it is the best sounding adapterless tube I've had in my amp.


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## Paladin79 (Apr 15, 2019)

We all have our preferences.   I run several amps so I am not basing what I buy on a $100 amp (B stock that is.)

Here is some artificial tube glow, now I just need to locate some amber LED's and I should be in business. In case this idea seems hokey, I can recall someone named Bill bringing it up. Everything will be self contained within a tube socket, including a small toggle switch.


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## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> We all have our preferences.   I run several amps so I am not basing what I buy on a $100 amp (B stock that is.)
> 
> Here is some artificial tube glow, now I just need to locate some amber LED's and I should be in business. In case this idea seems hokey, I can recall someone named Bill bringing it up. Everything will be self contained within a tube socket, including a small toggle switch.



That's coolness #2!  Whoever that Bill guy is he must be cool too.


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## Paladin79 (Apr 15, 2019)

bcowen said:


> That's coolness #2!  Whoever that Bill guy is he must be cool too.



From what I understand there is no conceit in his family.

He has it all.

  I just found some tiny little toggle switches used in the Coaster amp builds I have done, everything just got more workable and three volt lithium batteries should last a long time with an Led or two.


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## Old Deaf Donkey

... and now, ladies and gentlemen, a pair of 6С2С (6S2S), otherwise Soviet analogue of 6J5, from Soyuz factory in Novosibirsk, also known as NEMZ, or factory No. 617. In 1937, the Soviets bought tube manufacturing equipment from RCA for Svetlana factory in Leningrad. in 1941, during the WWII, part of the factory was evacuated to Novosibirsk. I do not know if RCA equipment went there, but this is a high probability. 6S2S tubes were developed at MELZ in Moscow and forwarded to Novosibirsk for production. I now have pairs made in 1973, 1962,1958 and 1954-55.  The latter is in the pic and sounds beautifully.


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## Paladin79 (Apr 17, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> ... and now, ladies and gentlemen, a pair of 6С2С (6S2S), otherwise Soviet analogue of 6J5, from Soyuz factory in Novosibirsk, also known as NEMZ, or factory No. 617. In 1937, the Soviets bought tube manufacturing equipment from RCA for Svetlana factory in Leningrad. in 1941, during the WWII, part of the factory was evacuated to Novosibirsk. I do not know if RCA equipment went there, but this is a high probability. 6S2S tubes were developed at MELZ in Moscow and forwarded to Novosibirsk for production. I now have pairs made in 1973, 1962,1958 and 1954-55.  The latter is in the pic and sounds beautifully.



Very cool!  Just when I thought I had most every 6j5 variable known to man a new one comes out lol.  I must see if I can purchase some of these myself.

Ok I have a matched set on the way.


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## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 17, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I have a matched set on the way.



They will most likely have a regular pentagon on the top with "6С2С" inside, if they are from the earlier dates in Novosibirsk (the 1973 have only a small pentagon on the side). The early samples from MELZ are extremely rare, as they were, well, just the samples.


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## Paladin79 (Apr 17, 2019)

I found some 1968, large pentagon. Well matched.  I will start with these and if I like them I may search for some of the rare versions.

I also got some Melz 1579's to try in a Cary amp for the heck of it.


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## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 17, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I found some 1968 Photons, large pentagon. Well matched.  I will start with these and if I like them I may search for some of the rare versions.



With all due respect, pentagon is always NEMZ, Soyuz, Novosibirsk. Foton factory is in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, and their tubes are marked with equilateral horizontal rhombus that contains the type of the tube in digits and cyrillic letters (same as in pentagon in case of Novosibirsk)






This may be confusing, as older Soyuz also have a similar but much smaller rhombus on the side in addition to pentagon, however, that's something different, as that rhombus contains a five-pointed star inside, and inside the star - sickle and hammer - that is a sign of military acceptance, same as e.g. JAN in the US.


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## Paladin79 (Apr 17, 2019)

Yes I edited before you posted. I realized Photon had the rhombus after the fact and deleted that brand name.  Better you find my error than Bill !


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## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 17, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Yes I edited before you posted. I realized Photon had the rhombus after the fact and deleted that brand name.  Better you find my error than Bill !



That is not an error _per se_. Russian markings are as confusing as their history of production. I read somewhere that the rhombus was used by Reflector in Saratov before Foton in Tashkent. Foton, like Soyuz, also started in 1941 with evacuation from Fryazino tube factory No 191 ("Radiolampa") (close to Moscow) to Tashkent. In Fryazino, RCA built a new part to manufacture tubes with metal jackets under contract in 1939 (following the start of cooperation and technology transfer in 1935). However, in 1942, the tube factory in Fryazino was reestablished as No. 747 and produced tubes again. In addition, in 1946, equipment from Oberspreewerke in Berlin was taken to Fryazino along with German engineers from Telefunken to reproduce German technology of metal-ceramic tubes. So, the Soviet tubes are not that much Soviet, it seems...


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## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> That is not an error _per se_. Russian markings are as confusing as their history of production. I read somewhere that the rhombus was used by Reflector in Saratov before Foton in Tashkent. Foton, like Soyuz, also started in 1941 with evacuation from Fryazino tube factory No 191 ("Radiolampa") (close to Moscow) to Tashkent. In Fryazino, RCA built a new part to manufacture tubes with metal jackets under contract in 1939 (following the start of cooperation and technology transfer in 1935). However, in 1942, the tube factory in Fryazino was reestablished as No. 747 and produced tubes again. In addition, in 1946, equipment from Oberspreewerke in Berlin was taken to Fryazino along with German engineers from Telefunken to reproduce German technology of metal-ceramic tubes. So, the Soviet tubes are not that much Soviet, it seems...


Excellent info, thanks so much!

 I am still working on matching LED's to working tube color but I am getting closer. Just a bit more amber would be nice but I am nearly there.


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## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Excellent info, thanks so much!
> 
> I am still working on matching LED's to working tube color but I am getting closer. Just a bit more amber would be nice but I am nearly there.



That's more like lightly roasted umber, but far be it from me to nitpick or anything.


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## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's more like lightly roasted umber, but far be it from me to nitpick or anything.


Lightly roasted eh? I hope the nits you are picking form a united front and swarm your North Carolina A$$.


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## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Lightly roasted eh? I hope the nits you are picking form a united front and swarm your North Carolina A$$.



LOL!!!!

It's just that I know what a perfectionist you are, Tom, and only trying to be my usual helpful self.


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## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!!!!
> 
> It's just that I know what a perfectionist you are, Tom, and only trying to be my usual helpful self.


I am a perfectionist by all means, I generally like to drive on the left side of the road and make sure my shoes are on the proper feet. Other than that, I usually ask myself “what would Bill do?” before I leave my house in the morning. It is how I cope with life.


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## ScubaMan2017

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> ... and now, ladies and gentlemen, a pair of 6С2С (6S2S), otherwise Soviet analogue of 6J5, from Soyuz factory in Novosibirsk, also known as NEMZ, or factory No. 617. In 1937, the Soviets bought tube manufacturing equipment from RCA for Svetlana factory in Leningrad. in 1941, during the WWII, part of the factory was evacuated to Novosibirsk. I do not know if RCA equipment went there, but this is a high probability. 6S2S tubes were developed at MELZ in Moscow and forwarded to Novosibirsk for production. I now have pairs made in 1973, 1962,1958 and 1954-55.  The latter is in the pic and sounds beautifully.


...I'm a sucker for this level of detail! Me gusta. Thanks, @Old Deaf Donkey 



Paladin79 said:


> Very cool!  Just when I thought I had most every 6j5 variable known to man a new one comes out lol.  I must see if I can purchase some of these myself.
> 
> Ok I have a matched set on the way.



There must a historian (of the Cold War and its technologies) that has done scholarly work on how civilians (more importantly children [like me] born post 1970) who are taking the nightmarish war technology and hammering them into proverbial ploughshares. As I turn 49 at month's end, I'm picking up the album covers of Metallica, Megadeath, Quiet Riot, and Judas Priest... and getting a Schiit-eating grin on my face.


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## Paladin79 (Apr 19, 2019)

Right now Mr. Donkey certainly has my vote as far as someone who knows Russian tube history. I have plenty of tube manuals from the 30's to the 70's but they are for US made tubes. Seriously I doubt we ever shared much technology with Russia except for during WW 2 and it may have been limited to war related production.

Once I find a defective power tube my headphone rack will be complete. I mounted a small switch on the back side of the socket so I need not leave the filaments light at all times. This is a bit bright so I may tone it down some in the future.


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## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 19, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Right now Mr. Donkey certainly has my vote as far as someone who knows Russian tube history. I have plenty of tube manuals from the 30's to the 70's but they are for US made tubes. Seriously I doubt we ever shared much technology with Russia except for during WW 2 and it may have been limited to war related production.



A couple of months ago I did not know a schiit about Russkie tubes or their production history. My advantages are knowledge sourcing and harvesting skills, and of course that I have learned the language well enough. Then, of course, curiosity.

The reason for the Soviets acquiring US technology for vacuum tube production in the thirties has not been military at all. They were looking for television. It helped that American TV development pioneer, V.K. Zworykin, was born in Russia, and he visited Soviet Russia in the thirties. Hence the Soviets bought technology and equipment namely from the RCA, paying millions in gold. This turned out useful for radio comms equipment during the war, and then they were also using some of the equipment creatively to manufacture parts of the armaments. Later, after WWII, radar and computing uses also were added.

The rack is coming through gorgeous. Congratulations!


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## Old Deaf Donkey (Jul 18, 2020)

*My path to euphonics by rolling tubes in Vali 2*


Spoiler: How deaf am I?



I lost a good deal of top and bottom frequencies in my left ear after a very violent ear infection in the African bush 13 years ago. I almost died waiting until was rescued by air to the nearest medical assistance but that‘s another story. As my right ear still hears reasonably well somehow something compensates and I hear well binaurally: soundstage, space, balance, articulation, and all (or so I think). This may however affect my preferences for sonic signatures.





Spoiler: Quality of music and Quality of sound 



I have had a rather decent musical education in my childhood which comprised singing a lot of baroque, classical and romantic music in a choir, and public concerts home and abroad. That included some theory, so I can read musical score to a degree. As an adolescent, I drooled listening to various kinds of rock, rhythm and blues, and jazz in the Seventies and stayed with that music until now. Later in life, due to family circumstances, I met many world-famous classical musicians, and I had extraordinary chances to observe various rehearsals and staging of classical opera at the highest level. Hence my experience of music is quite deep and wide. I can play music in my head, and I can somehow correct a lousy performance and inferior recording psychologically. This of course takes effort, so enjoyment is limited if such correction needs to be done.

Before I started this quest for sound quality, my adult experience was limited to a home stereo system consisting of NAD C350 integrated amp driving B&W P4 floor speakers. It worked extremely well for me 20 years ago, and I still have the equipment in one of my homes. A while before this quest, I bought Sony NW-A45 DAP and MDR-1000X noise cancelling cans for travel – which gave rather nice sound, I thought, HiRes and all. I had little clue about relatively measurable or discernible qualities of reproduction beyond the stereophonic effect - such as speed, tonal balance, resolution, 3d soundstage and the like.



In October 2018, I decided to buy good HiFi headphones in addition to Sony MDR-1000X which I have been using for air travel. Reading a bit led to narrowing the choice down to AKG K702 and Hifiman HE-400i. So I bought both. Initially, the plan was to use Sony NW-A45 as USB DAC. Of course, it would not drive the K702 sufficiently, so, researching the amps, I chose Schiit Vali 2 as I decided to try tube rolling on the cheap. After a while, Modi MultiBit followed. Half a year later, having spent $$$$ for tubes and adapters from all over the world in result of reading this thread and a bit of other stuff, mostly, I am sitting happy as a pig in schiit, having achieved sound quality and signature I never thought possible, and now quite well-informed what works for me.



Spoiler: My headphones 



I added HE400i to K702 on the merits of trying magnetic planar in comparison to varimotion dynamic drivers, expecting that the two different technologies will sound differently with the same tube. Well, they do, and they don’t sometimes.

It helps me to think of tubes as men, and cans as women.

HE400i exudes an atmosphere of appealing availability, it comforts and arouses at the same time. It never challenges you too hard, it accepts you and your music readily, and swathes one’s mind over in a cloud of smooth pleasure. At the same time, the sonic detail remains revealed - just that it is covered by some luxurious sheen. Some tubes that either fail to master K702, or lack subtlety of signature, sound more acceptable on HE400i. Some 5670 tubes are like that.

K702 is like a bespectacled business woman, sharp, a little angular, intelligent and witty. One must work hard and remain alert to get accepted. However, once involved, it opens amazing, lucid experiences, that carry one away in strident, charming, and transparent engagement. For that, however, the tube needs to have not just clarity, dimensionality, tonal balance and speed, but also a high degree of sonic sophistication. Generally, some 6SN7 and C6G8 tubes open better on K702.

To me, even with a well-matched tube, HE400i, while delivering desired sound signature, ultimately fails to excite and intrigue at the same level compared to K702. I listen to both but choose K702 much more often.

A logical conclusion might appear that brighter, sharper tubes would work better on softer sounding headphones. Alas, it is somewhat true and somewhat not true.





Spoiler: Bias for good-looking tubes 



I have found a couple of funny aspects of tube preferences. It is not just the sonic qualities. I tend to think that larger tubes should sound better, and among the larger tubes those with metal base and those in coke-bottle shape should be the best. Then, another bias is that older tubes should sound more euphonic. I have no idea where this all comes from, but it is there.



The biggest discovery to me was that some music on the same equipment, including the same source and the same tube, sounds differently on various headphones on different days. Is it atmospheric pressure, blood pressure, mood, or even more factors? I simply do not know. And, some other music, as many good recordings of jazz, sound almost universally well on all tubes and all cans always. Go figure… This means that using more than one set of headphones with different tubes makes evaluation of sound signature rather complex and a tedious job. It follows that one also like different tubes more on different days.

Another discovery was that critical listening to evaluate qualities of a tube and listening to music on the same tube are two rather different things, as the first focusses on analysis of momentary experience, and the second – on enjoyment of one’s music. To me, a synthesis of both is required to determine whether the given tube delivers somewhat close to a desirable sound signature to me.



Spoiler: My music 



These are just a few examples of what I listen to. The sonic merits and challenges are obvious, so very few notes.

_Ciaconna, Partita for Violin Solo No 2 in D Minor, _by JS Bach: Henryk Szeryng, violin (Guarneri “Leduc”, 1745); https://tidal.com/track/4395049

_Chaconne in G Minor_, by Vitali: Jascha Heifetz, violin (Guarneri “The David”, 1742), Richard Elsasser, organ; https://tidal.com/track/11334294

_Allegrao moderato, Concerto for Violin in D, Op. 36, _by Tchaikovsky: Anne-Sophie Mutter, violin (Stradivarius "Lord Dunn-Raven" of 1710), Wiener Philharmoniker under André Previn; https://tidal.com/browse/track/77697125

_Dance of the Knights, Romeo and Juliet_, by Prokofiev: Lisa Batiashvili, violin (Guarneri “Cozio 61377”, 1739), Chamber Orchestra of Europe under Yannick Nézet-Séguin; https://tidal.com/track/84165950

_Bete aber auch dabei, from _Cantata _Mache dich mein Geist, bereit, _by JS Bach: Daniel Hope, violin (Guarneri “ex-Lipinski”, 1737), Ana Lucia Richter, soprano, Claudio Bohorquez, cello, & Naoki Kitaya,  organ; https://tidal.com/track/77629587

_Prelude and Fugue in E-flat Major “St. Anne”, _by JS Bach: Carl Weinrich, organ (Holtkamp Organ Company of Cleveland, Ohio – Job 1712, 1958, at General Theological Seminary Chapel of the Good Shepherd, New York, New York, USA); https://tidal.com/track/66091706; transient speed and space

_Stabat mater dolorosa, Stabat Mater, _by Pergolesi: Philippe Jaroussky, counter-tenor, Julia Lezhneva, soprano, I Barocchisti under Diego Fasolis; https://tidal.com/track/68736855

_Gloria_:_ Quoniam, Mass in C Minor, _by Mozart: Barbara Hendricks, Pamela Coburn, Andreas Schmidt, Raphael Alpermann, Staatskapelle Dresden and Rundfunkchor Leipzig under Peter Schreier; https://tidal.com/track/65427785; very few tubes manage proper separation of soprano and mezzo, and the twin 6J5 setup does it best.

_Agnus Dei, Mass B Minor,_ by JS Bach: Hertha Töpper, Mezzo-Soprano, Münchener Bach-Orchester & Münchener Bach-Chor under Karl Richter; https://tidal.com/track/77599268

_Alto là!, Act 1, Barbiere di Siviglia, _by Rossini: Teresa Berganza, Stefania Malagu, Luigi Alva, Enzo Dara, Hermann Prey, London Symphony Orchestra under Claudio Abbado; https://tidal.com/track/88459475; this is good to check soundstage 3d, and nothing matches 2 6J5s

_Always Somewhere (Live), _Acoustica, Scorpions; https://tidal.com/track/5872116

_The End: _The Doors; https://tidal.com/track/389269

_Just the Same (2012 rm), _from _I lost My Head, _Gentle Giant; https://tidal.com/track/64039985

_Bags & Trane, _Milt Jackson, John Coltrane; https://tidal.com/track/68685493

_Lonely woman, _The Modern Jazz Quartett; https://tidal.com/track/68714057

_The Grand Wazoo, _Frank Zappa; https://tidal.com/track/16605072

_Blues Deluxe, _Joe Bonamassa; https://tidal.com/track/5173422

_The Inflated Tear, _from _ The Vibration Continues, _Rahsaan Roland Kirk; https://tidal.com/track/68714205

_The Sage, from Pictures at an Exhibition, _Emerson, Lake, and Palmer;
https://tidal.com/browse/track/63101468



So, where am I in my quest for euphonics?

*What is important to me in a sound signature? *

After going through the tubes I have enjoyed most the ones that resolve well in terms of separation and space. I like wide and deep soundstages. Tonal balance is important, and while I am not a bass-head, I like tight, fast, well defined bass, without hangovers. I do not like tizzy, sibilant treble, but enjoy mine bright and airy. I like rich, well-articulated and clearly separated mids. I am starting to learn what is meant by attack speed in sound reproduction, and I like mine fast. Overall, definition and focus of the sound character are very important to me. Yet that is not enough. To enjoy, I also need something that sounds euphonic, sophisticated, not just crystal clear (a bit of contradiction, I know). Something that sounds “realistic” to me, full of presence bringing me to a virtual concert hall (even in studio recordings), some kind of gestalt response. All this leads up to something in my head stop searching, correcting, adjusting, purifying, detecting, so that I can relax completely and enjoy the music.

*Which cans?*

Much more often AKG K702, than HE400i. See spoiler above if you are interested in more. In a way, I like both and will keep both. I am buying a second pair of K702 for future use as I am afraid they will soon disappear from the market. I will not buy a second pair of HE400i.



Spoiler: The tubes I like in my Vali 2



My choice was guided by this thread and some other reading, and the results were hit and miss. The first tubes I really liked were 5670: WE396A (which remains a favourite), and also somewhat similar RCA JRC 5670 and GE 5670W. Then, a RCA CRC-6C8-G JAN arrived, and that was a step forward. Then I moved on 6SN7GT Tung-Sol “mouse ears”, yet another small but significant step forward. Then I separated the 6SN7 into twin 6J5s, and that was it. I have several pairs (see my tube list under spoiler above), and I like the Soviet 6SNS made by Soyuz in Novosibirsk in 1954 and 55, and a throw away (both measured “bad”) combination of Philco and Super Silverstone best.

I have not found comparable tubes in 6922/ECC88 format. ElectroHarmonix 6922 and Reflektor 6N23P lack finesse; 7V Philips PCC88 is an interesting, darkish signature tube, maybe I need more time, but why bother.

I do come back from the twin 6J5s occasionally to 5670s, 6C8G, 6SN7 “mouse ears” and occasionally MELZ 6Н8С from early 1950ties (which brings unsurpassed resolution, timbral balance yet sounds somewhat thin in harmonics). A very pleasurable listening, but I still like the split twin setup for the soundstage and precision of placement. It is fine to change and check sometimes, even if only to refresh the hearing, but ultimately, I hope I am close to the endgame.



I spent more than $4,000 on tubes and other stuff (including Edifier S3000Pro speakers). Could have bought a Cary CAD 300B SEI and AKG K1000 second hand for that money. But - all the fun rolling tubes!

I went deeper. Still Vali 2 and AKG K702. I pursued 3 paths: (i) looking for 6SN7 I liked best (including 6C8), buying about 10 types of each that I could find on the cheap; (ii) pursuing dual setup with single triods further - some more 6J5, and adding several 7A4/VT-192 (many thanks to @Paladin79 ); I could find (I found two types NOS NIB in good quantities), I seem to be the only person [not for long, though] who has seen CBS-branded 7A4 as the Internet does not provide any reference to them; (iii) still trying a couple of novals, made by Mullard.

I had to buy a tube tester - SuperiorInstruments TV-12. It makes me very happy as now I can buy funny tubes from garbage bins without fear!

All paths have been productive. Whilst I still have plenty of 6SN7 (see here and here) and 6C8 to try, a CBS 5692 and  RCA 6SN7GT grey glass took me a level up in 6SN7; Mullard ECC82 and CV2492, and Brimar CV4033 enhanced my view on novals, again a step up from WE396A. However, fed from Mimby, dual setup of Sylvanias VT-192 from 1943, Brimar 6SN7GT with staggered winged circle plates, RCA VT-231 grey ["smoked"] glass, and Ken-Rad JAN-CKR-6C8-G VT-163 (not in particular order) were the best liked setups.

An important change to my listening to new tubes is that I started worry less about characteristics and much more about the overall sound signature: does the tube render a sound that engages me, do I like it, or not that much? Only if a tube comes close to the ones I like best, I start analysing, what is missing for me? Say, I have a RCA 6C8G, with parallel winged plates, that sounds almost ideal, and some other 6C8G with round plates, but it seems that there is a slight lack of sparkle in them, compared to my best setups. I like it very much, but I like my best setups better.

This phase continued through variants of 6SN7 that I have, including Foton 6H8C from 1951, and Frankentube 7N7, made in the Lansdale factory - another awesome tube, and Ken-Rad staggered plates which is also great. Thought of maybe adding Tung-Sol black glass, round plates and looking for one other variant of Sylvanias VT-192 (racetrack mica, oh this @bcowen !).

*ENDGAME*

Following in the path of @Paladin79, added a DAC with tube buffer, aune T1, instead of Mimby. Some time ago, I bought two Siemens EC8010 triodes which I found for a rather reasonable price ($20 apiece, +$25 for the adapter to 6922). I anticipated using them in the aune, adding euphonic tubes to Vali 2. In Vali 2 on Mimby, they gave excellent resolution, soundstage and speed, but sounded a little dry and somewhat unpleasant. Once aune T1 arrived, I found that actually it works the best other way round: the pair of EC8010 in Vali 2, giving the best of EC8010 character, and two Sylvania VT-192 (7A4) in the aune, supporting resolution and space, and adding musicality. A pair of best 6J5 (Sylvania, RCA, even NEVZ 6C2C from 1954), or 7A4 in the aune T1, and Sylvania 6SN7W, RCA grey glass, or CBS Hytron 5692, or another great tube in Vali 2 work well, too. These combinations are indeed awesome to my ears, I cannot stop listening to this combination, both on AKG 702 and Hifiman HE 400i. Goodbye Mimby. Will of course look for other great tubes on occasions, but otherwise: *ENDGAME*. *Update*: not quite... read on

Added Koss/Massdrop E95X on Koss E90, fed by aune T1 with two single triodes. Excellent, too, more transparent, yet a tad less magical, than the setup with Vali. So I alternate, nowadays, but still keep coming back to aune T1 + Vali2 + K702. I like it the best.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 20, 2019)

An interesting read ODD. I would be curious which Melz tubes you tried. If you could post a photo that would be helpful.

The Vali 2 is a fun little amp but all things are relative and it is easy to spend $2400 on speakers alone, or one set of headphones, or one DAC. It sounds like you have learned a lot in the last six months, I greatly prefer the tube sound and class A amps so that is where I spend the most money. Having just heard Sonus Faber speakers with a Cary amp I just purchased, I need to try to replicate that sound so my goals are pretty clear right now.

Oh yeah, I have some dud power tubes on the way so both sides of my headphone rack will have lighted tubes.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> *My path to euphonics by rolling tubes in Vali 2  ---SNIP--*
> 
> *What's next?*
> 
> I spent ca. $2,400 on this stage (including Edifier S3000Pro speakers). That would have bought me a STAX D10700: a system of SR-L700 earspeakers and SRM-D10 DAC/amp (or SR-L500 with SRM-D50 for less than that). Maybe I should go to a showroom and listen to STAX setup, and, if I like it enough, buy it, and then compare the two in earnest? Yet I had such and enormous fun with tubes, and perhaps I shall keep rolling slowly. Who knows?



Thanks for the comprehensive listing. The Vali 2 with either Dual 6J5GT (naughty girls) Sylvania (thanks @Paladin79) or an early production three-hole black plate Mouse-ears are my favorites.
On the Valhalla 2, I have decided to "roll" with Jason's choice of NOS "Rockets" (Voskhod 6N1P), with the 1951 Foton 6H8C as my back-up choices. 

I can appreciate your observation that the same tubes, on the same song, with the same headphones--all can sound different from day to day. It is a mystery to me, and no scope or meter can measure it, but it is a "thing".

With the Vali 2, the rolling of different tubes seems to impart more discernable differences than rolling the drivers of the Valhalla 2. I have been interested in trying different 6922-type tubes, but the stock was the only "pair" I had. I did put the new Telefunken and the stock tube from the Vali (6BZ7?) in the Valhalla 2--and they sounded very similar to the 6N1P.  To be honest, I hear differences between the 6SN7 and the 6922 types, but within a type, there is not a great deal of difference to my ears between pairs of mismatched 6SN7s drawing from a pool of 10-different variants within that type. (Two different vendors, selling me "used, test good" tubes for 3 for $10, and two "new" tubes, plus the Fotons).

I can conclude either my "critical listening skills" are not sufficient to discern subtle differences in "Cheap" tubes, and I am too poor to purchase "Holy Grail" --two conditions over which I have little control-- but that doesn't mean I am resigned to horrible sounds from headphones, quite the opposite. Contentment and satisfaction are the rewards of a good sounding system, and if I am happy, satisfied, and contented- that is sufficient.

I appreciate your respect and knowledge of 
 Russian tube production. I am a student of the former USSR, joking I got a college degree in a country that no longer exists. Russian tubes and US tubes before Nixon got elected, seem to be the parameters which I find the most pleasing sounds. Slovakia comes in a close second. 

China may produce some good tubes--I don't care--they also produce the counterfeit tubes with vintage names on cheap duplicates.

Thanks for your insights.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I would be curious which Melz tubes you tried. If you could post a photo that would be helpful.



They are still with the customs in Belgium. Hope to receive them next week. Will post pics, sure.


----------



## Paladin79

oh ok thanks. So far I know about a dozen people with the Melz and have a pretty clear understanding of how they like them. Heck I think even Bill eventually came around lol.  I am redoing the solder on a pair this weekend and am listening to one in a Vali 2 right now. It is my favorite tube in the Vali and I must have tried upwards of 50 tubes and tube combinations in it thus far.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Robert Padgett said:


> Thanks for your insights.



Thank you for your interest. In the USSR, somewhere in the 70ties new standards for tube production were introduced. The Russian connoisseurs suggested that the audiophile qualities of the tubes were ruined by these new standards, which had the objectives to enable production of cheaper tubes by workforce of lesser skills and from inferior materials. This must have been triggered by you Yankees electing Nixon who first ruined the tube quality in the USA


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> As I turn 49 at month's end, I'm picking up the album covers of Metallica, Megadeath, Quiet Riot, and Judas Priest... and getting a Schiit-eating grin on my face.



In another year when you turn 50 (dang young 'un), you'll be adding Marilyn Manson to the queue.  Natural evolution I'm pretty sure.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Right now Mr. Donkey certainly has my vote as far as someone who knows Russian tube history. I have plenty of tube manuals from the 30's to the 70's but they are for US made tubes. Seriously I doubt we ever shared much technology with Russia except for during WW 2 and it may have been limited to war related production.
> 
> Once I find a defective power tube my headphone rack will be complete. I mounted a small switch on the back side of the socket so I need not leave the filaments light at all times. This is a bit bright so I may tone it down some in the future.



That's like awesomely super cool.  If I had a DIY bone in my body I'd be making one for me.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> *My path to euphonics by rolling tubes in Vali 2*
> 
> 
> Spoiler: How deaf am I?
> ...



Nice!!!  Thanks for sharing, and especially with such detail and reference points.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> China may produce some good tubes--I don't care--they also produce the counterfeit tubes with vintage names on cheap duplicates.



The best application for Chinese tubes is a headphone stand like Tom just made.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's like awesomely super cool.  If I had a DIY bone in my body I'd be making one for me.



I have it down pretty well by now, it could be that if I am treated really nicely on some tubes I have in my possession, I could most likely be talked into building one for you. I spent all weekend on a four headphone copper rack for some guy in Texas so most likely I could be coerced into building another of the glowing tube racks.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have it down pretty well by now, it could be that if I am treated really nicely on some tubes I have in my possession, I could most likely be talked into building one for you. I spent all weekend on a four headphone copper rack for some guy in Texas so most likely I could be coerced into building another of the glowing tube racks.



Perhaps we have some things we can trade. LOL!!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 20, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Perhaps we have some things we can trade. LOL!!!



Being a Gemini, I tend to do things in twos so building a second is not out of the question.  I will soon have plenty of dud tubes at my disposal. I am out of quartered oak but if you had a preference of say red oak, or walnut, or cherry, or maple I could be on the look out for something that might match some existing piece of equipment you have.

Maybe something like this Bill:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-CURLY-CH...054940?hash=item5d8a1c15dc:g:DmwAAOSwwRtcqNBo

Sorry for getting off topic, I am currently listening to a Vali 2 with Melz 1578 fed by a Gumby. I am achieving a sound that is hard to walk away from, MrSpeakers Alpha Prime headphoines.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thank you for your interest. In the USSR, somewhere in the 70ties new standards for tube production were introduced. The Russian connoisseurs suggested that the audiophile qualities of the tubes were ruined by these new standards, which had the objectives to enable production of cheaper tubes by workforce of lesser skills and from inferior materials. This must have been triggered by you Yankees electing Nixon who first ruined the tube quality in the USA



I am grateful that you have picked up on the direct causal link between the Nixon era and the decline of Audio tube quality in America. 
We were lead to believe that Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev and Nixon were discussing nuclear weapons during their Summit, while we can now see, the "real" story.

Like Kennedy securing his Cuban cigars before announcing the embargo, Tricky Dick was ensuring a supply of "real" Melz 1578s before Sovtek started spitting out lesser quality.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Being a Gemini, I tend to do things in twos so building a second is not out of the question.  I will soon have plenty of dud tubes at my disposal. I am out of quartered oak but if you had a preference of say red oak, or walnut, or cherry, or maple I could be on the look out for something that might match some existing piece of equipment you have.



Have you checked with @Ripper2860 ?  I'm pretty sure the majority of his tubes are duds.

Do you have any Dalbergia or African Padouk?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ...match some existing piece of equipment you have.



Crap.  That would limit me to lime green naugahyde.  

Perhaps something in cinderblock?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 20, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Have you checked with @Ripper2860 ?  I'm pretty sure the majority of his tubes are duds.
> 
> Do you have any Dalbergia or African Padouk?



I am trying really hard not to offer to build such a stand out of pine for you but no, I refuse to use any wood I cannot easily pronounce.  I am also not going to do a piano black lacquer finish for you, with hand sanding between 17 coats like I did for my son.  If I win the cherry, I could use that and maybe it would grow on you after a while.  I could glue some cardboard together I suppose, you would get less splinters that way, maybe just a paper cut or two.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> In another year when you turn 50 (dang young 'un), you'll be adding Marilyn Manson to the queue.  Natural evolution I'm pretty sure.


Nah, I'm more of a_* Post Modern Jukebox *_music lover. BTW, MM visited a class at Temple University. Interesting dude....


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Nah, I'm more of a_* Post Modern Jukebox *_music lover. BTW, MM visited a class at Temple University. Interesting dude....



He played in Charlotte last summer.  I really wanted to go, but decided I'd stick out like a sore thumb without tattoos, piercings, black lipstick, drugs, single-digit IQ, and (especially) youth.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am trying really hard not to offer to build such a stand out of pine for you but no, I refuse to use any wood I cannot easily pronounce.  I am also not going to do a piano black lacquer finish for you, with hand sanding between 17 coats like I did for my son.  If I win the cherry, I could use that and maybe it would grow on you after a while.  I could glue some cardboard together I suppose, you would get less splinters that way, maybe just a paper cut or two.



Cardboard? Seriously? I _much_ prefer particle board. But I'm not unreasonably picky.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 20, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I am trying really hard not to offer to build such a stand out of pine for you but no, I refuse to use any wood I cannot easily pronounce.  I am also not going to do a piano black lacquer finish for you, with hand sanding between 17 coats like I did for my son.  If I win the cherry, I could use that and maybe it would grow on you after a while.  I could glue some cardboard together I suppose, you would get less splinters that way, maybe just a paper cut or two.


Fifteen years ago in Ceylon, I bought a procession costume-head of a Catholic saint (presumably, Judas) carved in wood and painted - 17th century. Fortunately, it ran away during moving houses between the countries and continents. I would be tempted to use it as a headphone stand, which would be sacrilegious. Maybe, if they post me back to Africa sometime, I will get a slightly extended head of Janus carved, so that two pairs of cans could be accommodated. The eyes can be done in lit up cleartop tube duds. Inspiration...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 20, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Have you checked with @Ripper2860 ? I'm pretty sure the majority of his tubes are duds.



Pfffft.  I have plenty of excellent tubes.  Fortunately, I caught on to your deceitful hoarder plan of declaring all my tubes duds in order add primo tubes to your stash.  I also caught on to your devilish plan with the sabotaged 12AU7 socket on my tester.  Your jealousy and coveting of my tubes knows no bounds.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Fifteen years ago in Ceylon, I bought a procession costume-head of a Catholic saint (presumably, Judas) carved in wood and painted - 17th century. Fortunately, it ran away during moving houses between the countries and continents. I would be tempted to use it as a headphone stand, which would be sacrilegious. Maybe, if they post me back to Africa sometime, I will get a slightly extended head of Janus carved, so that two pairs of cans could be accommodated. The eyes can be done in cleartop tube duds. Inspiration...



LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Pfffft.  I have plenty of excellent tubes.  Fortunately, I caught on to your deceitful hoarder plan of declaring all my tubes duds in order add primo tubes to your stash.  I also caught on to your devilish plan with the sabotaged 12AU7 socket on my tester.  Your jealousy and coveting of my tubes knows no bounds.



Well, at least you haven't discovered the 10k ohm resistor I added to the 6SN7 socket yet.  No need to waste time re-testing though...all your 6SN7's are duds.  Trust me.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 20, 2019)

Hah!!!  I adjust the sensitivity so they always measure at 100% -- so there!!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Hah!!!  I adjust the sensitivity so they always at 100% -- so there!!!



That totally justifies the cost and use of a tube tester.  Good job!!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 20, 2019)

bcowen said:


> That totally justifies the cost and use of a tube tester. Good job!!



Just following your handy 'Bill's Tube Testing for Dummies -- Using your new BK 700' guide.  This is covered in the section -- 'Measuring tubes sold to you by Bill Cowen'.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> Just following your handy 'Bill's Tube Testing for Dummies -- Using your new BK 700' guide.  This is covered in the section -- 'Measuring tubes sold to you by Bill Cowen'.


@Ripper2860 and @bcowen  I feel obliged to offer my services as a back-channel to help you both. As a connoisseur of "cheapskate" and "used, tests good" vacuum tubes, and devoid of any real analytical tools like an ohm-meter or ground-fault indicator, I am the best-qualified person to determine whether any (or All) of your tubes are "duds". I will give my shipping address and please forward to my attention the "Worst" of the Melz 1578s and/or especially those really bad 12au7 variants (with adapters, as they may be part of the problem). I will conduct extensive testing, I will consult with various members of the GRU in Mother Russia, and after careful consideration, I will issue a redacted report of some of my findings. The Tubes which survive my extensive testing protocols will be returned in the mid-2020 time frame...we hope.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> This is covered in the section -- 'Measuring tubes sold to you by Bill Cowen'.



Once again, you glossed over the fine print at the bottom which clearly states that any tubes sold by me are guaranteed to be duds. Further testing is for entertainment value only.

Sheeez.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> @Ripper2860 and @bcowen  I feel obliged to offer my services as a back-channel to help you both. As a connoisseur of "cheapskate" and "used, tests good" vacuum tubes, and devoid of any real analytical tools like an ohm-meter or ground-fault indicator, I am the best-qualified person to determine whether any (or All) of your tubes are "duds". I will give my shipping address and please forward to my attention the "Worst" of the Melz 1578s and/or especially those really bad 12au7 variants (with adapters, as they may be part of the problem). I will conduct extensive testing, I will consult with various members of the GRU in Mother Russia, and after careful consideration, I will issue a redacted report of some of my findings. The Tubes which survive my extensive testing protocols will be returned in the mid-2020 time frame...we hope.



That's very generous of you Robert. You're a team player to the max.  But all of my bad and/or questionable tubes have been sent to @Ripper2860 , and he's probably not going to know which are which to send to you.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> That's very generous of you Robert. You're a team player to the max.  But all of my bad and/or questionable tubes have been sent to @Ripper2860 , and he's probably not going to know which are which to send to you.


Always glad to be of service. "Shoes for Victory, Shoes for Progress" Comrade!


----------



## Robert Padgett

I am beginning to see why Schiit sources their Tubes from Russia...


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> I am beginning to see why Schiit sources their Tubes from Russia...



Isn't that the guy that invented Gorilla Glue?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> it is easy to spend $2400 on speakers alone



Well. I bought Edifier S3000Pro amplified monitors with BT AptX HD. I paid $600. I am feeding the output of vali 2 into an AptX HD transmitter > to the speakers. The results are very, very good to my ears.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The Vali 2 is a fun little amp but all things are relative and it is easy to spend $2400 on speakers alone,



It's easy to spend $2400 on a pair of interconnects. Entry level, of course.


----------



## bcowen

There be adapter here.  Now it's time for @Paladin79 's hearing test. LOL!!   

A couple HalfenFrank 7A4's ready to go. One labeled TungSol, one labeled Sylvania, both identical internally (and both likely made by Sylvania). These are the rectangle bottom mica versions with the Frankentop. The round bottom mica version with the more rounded bottle top is next. If they turn out to be awesome I'll report back next week....after I've stashed up.


----------



## Paladin79

You will love them, just try not to subject them to Marilyn Manson too early. Those tubes come from  the big band era and will probably withdraw if you scare them with your normal music.  Notice about all you can see is the bottom mica?  That is why I could not answer too many questions about them, a great deal is hidden behind the silver shroud.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You will love them, just try not to subject them to Marilyn Manson too early. Those tubes come from  the big band era and will probably withdraw if you scare them with your normal music.  Notice about all you can see is the bottom mica?  That is why I could not answer too many questions about them, a great deal is hidden behind the silver shroud.



You mean the faint (but still legible) "MM" printed under the EIA code_ isn't_ Marilyn Manson?  Crap. Not even worth bothering with now.


----------



## Nastrahl

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Well. I bought Edifier S3000Pro amplified monitors with BT AptX HD. I paid $600. I am feeding the output of vali 2 into an AptX HD transmitter > to the speakers. The results are very, very good to my ears.



Your Vali 2 that has already converted signal to analogic feeds an transmitter that, if I'm not wrong about BT's spec, only transmit numeric ones so you got signal convered 2 or 3 times (depending of the source)?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 21, 2019)

bcowen said:


> You mean the faint (but still legible) "MM" printed under the EIA code_ isn't_ Marilyn Manson?  Crap. Not even worth bothering with now.



In my 1951 Sylvania tube manual it states that the 7A4 is similar to the 6j5GT but gives improved performance especially at the higher frequencies, due to lock-in type of construction. This construction results in shorter leads, lower capacitances, and lower bass losses. (The Lock-in construction is their term for loktal I would think.)

An amplification factor of 20, plate resistance of 7700 ohm.

I sought these out for a reason. I will see what I can find on the VT-192 version it has the nearly half circle bottom mica.

Bill, your first listen should be limited to something out of your neck of the woods. Wagon Wheel by Old Crow Medicine Show, then maybe move up to the Darius Rucker version.

For high frequency test, try to locate Our Best by Andrew Winton, I know you like bass but high frequencies on these tubes are golden.

For bass and separation, look for Palestine Texas by T-Bone Burnett. For bass recovery, 2007 remaster of Night Time in the Switching Yard by Warren Zevon.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 21, 2019)

Nastrahl said:


> Your Vali 2 that has already converted signal to analogic feeds an transmitter that, if I'm not wrong about BT's spec, only transmit numeric ones so you got signal convered 2 or 3 times (depending of the source)?


Yeah. I know. I should have drawn RCA cables from Vali 2 outputs. I maybe will. But for now, it works fine. Yes, multiple coding. So what - as you will see most of the people here who roll tubes are insane and have ideas way beyond technically sound engineering. Welcome to the club, and think well before you decide to stay - not good for neither sanity nor pocket


----------



## Paladin79

Some of it is decent engineering, many of the tubes we are using are just older versions of current tubes or  sets of single triode tubes instead of dual triode. Now without mentioning any names, (Bill) some pay close attention to the shape of the top of the tube and micas and such but that is probably more fetish than insanity, well maybe both. What a person does in the privacy of his tube dungeon is his own business and between him, his maker and the laws of North Carolina.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> ...people here who roll tubes are insane and have ideas way beyond technically sound engineering.



@Ripper2860 , I think he's referring to you.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Some of it is decent engineering, many of the tubes we are using are just older versions of current tubes or  sets of single triode tubes instead of dual triode. Now without mentioning any names, (Bill) some pay close attention to the shape of the top of the tube and micas and such but that is probably more fetish than insanity, well maybe both. What a person does in the privacy of his tube dungeon is his own business and between him, his maker and the laws of North Carolina.



Actually as a departure from my normal approach, the construction details only became part of my analysis when I first started playing with 7N7's.  The first two pair I got were short bottles, one labeled TungSol and the other CBS.  On first listen, pretty meh.  Then I ran across that tall bottle Lansdale labeled tube, and holy schiit batman....it blew my socks off (and I wasn't even wearing any at the time). Ordered another tall bottle (Sylvania labeled I think), and it was right back to meh.  So What was it with this Lansdale tube that made it stand head and shoulders above the rest? Lansdale didn't make it, Sylvania did. That's when I really started looking at the inner construction details that led to the Frankie particulars -- the square bottle, the racetrack bottom mica, the parallel plates, flashing of 3/4 of the bottle, etc. Any of the subsequent 7N7's I bought that had ALL those details sounded awesome. And those that didn't, well didn't. Particular year (or years) of manufacture?  Probably. But what's a fact is that every 7N7 I've purchased (regardless of brand marking) that matches the Frankie details sounds great, and all the others are, well, not exactly. Some people go nuts over the tiniest detail of what constitutes a real Sylvania Bad Boy. Not me. I'd never be anywhere near that obsessive.


----------



## Mr Trev

I totally want these in my Vali2… 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/EIMAC-304TL-Pair-of-Vacuum-Tubes-Sockets-NOS-NIB-VT129-304TL/173875430859


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> @Ripper2860 , I think he's referring to you.


Please, please, easy on this. I did not have anyone individual in mind - I referred to tube rolling as a collective, anonymous insanity.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Please, please, easy on this. I did not have anyone individual in mind - I referred to tube rolling as a collective, anonymous insanity.


I was kidding around as was Bill I am sure. I know these guys a bit and we are friends. Well I am sort of friends with Bill depending on the price on some tubes of his I currently have in a Cary amp.  

Tom


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 22, 2019)

I don't know who these guys are, but I can tell you that this @bcowen  guy is an agitator and a forum stalker.  His day will come and he will come to rue that he and I crossed paths.  Vengeance is a dish best served cold and while I do not know when or where, suffice it to say Mr. Cowen will not see it coming and it will be glorious!!  







(J/K -- we go way back in forum years, and I'm used to his shenanigans.)


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't know who these guys are, but I can tell you that this @bcowen  guy is an agitator and a forum stalker.  His day will come and he will come to rue the that he and I crossed paths.  Vengence is a dish best served cold and while I do not know when or where, suffice it to say Mr. Cowen will not see it coming and it will be glorious!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You spelled vengeance wrong.  Just sayin'.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 22, 2019)

I knew that would get you out of your drunken stupor and onto the forum to further agitate!!!  

(Dammit.  I right-clicked and corrected spelling before submitting, but it didn't apply.)





BTW -- You  misspelled 'saying'.  Just saying.


----------



## Paladin79

I can think of nothing but kind things to say about Bill, at least till we resolve how much I will owe him for tubes.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> I can think of nothing but kind things to say about Bill, at least till we resolve how much I will owe him for tubes.



Think what you want and just post nice things.  The guy is not a mind-reader.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> Think what you want and just post nice things.  The guy is not a mind-reader.



"Stop the Insanity!"  
Remember the spiked platinum hair of Susan Powter?  
I wonder if she was into Hi-Fi tubes? 
Tube-rolling, and finding obscure, rare gems in a sea of alphanumberic morass, and hoarding the ones they find, and then moving on to another rarity from the Tubular Pantheon?

I only have two ears, and 24-hours to listen to my collection of excellent sounding tubes. 
If the Music could sound any better, I would not be able to handle it... So let me put in this video, and get on with my Workout...with Notorious B.I.G., 
"Ready to Die--The Remaster"


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 23, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> They are still with the customs in Belgium. Hope to receive them next week. Will post pics, sure.





Paladin79 said:


> An interesting read ODD. I would be curious which Melz tubes you tried. If you could post a photo that would be helpful.



Here you go:



I bought two of them from a small town in Russia, from an audio engineer who is selling some surplus of his components. $62 for a matching pair. Both pieces look exactly the same. No markings of any kind: no type, no factory sign.

And Foton 6Н8С from the same seller. Matching pair, $12 apiece.


----------



## Paladin79

The first tube with the holes appears to be the 1578 Melz that myself and maybe 9 friends love. You did well. Even used in decent condition that is a bargain!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> The first tube with the holes appears to be the 1578 Melz that myself and maybe 9 friends love. You did well. Even used in decent condition that is a bargain!


Thank you. Any experience with those Foton?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 23, 2019)

There are folks here who know more about the Fotons than me, I have a 1953 ribbed plate version that is sought after by most accounts and it sounds pretty good but I cannot make out exactly what you have there. If you can make out the date on yours to the lower right of the rhombus, that would help.

The Melz you have in our possession is my favorite equivalent to the 6sn7, I have offered to buy any from friends if they did not like them. No one has ever sold me one so that might tell you something.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> There are folks here who know more about the Fotons than me, I have a 1953 ribbed plate version that is sought after by most accounts and it sounds pretty good but I cannot make out exactly what you have there. If you can make out the date on yours to the lower right of the rhombus, that would help.



Thank you. The date is 57. The plate is black, no visible ribs.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 23, 2019)

'51 to '53 (may extend as far as '55) ribbed plate Fotons are the desirable and better sounding tubes.  The late 50's and later are smooth plates and don't quite measure up to the ribbed plates, but are not bad sounding tubes at all -- just not at the level of the earlier ribbed plate version.  I have both, and they both take quite a bit of time to settle down and break-in if NIB/NOS.  Typically 100 hours for the Fotons to break-in and settle down.  Until then the mids and highs vacillate between good and grating on a seemingly daily basis.  

YMMV, of course.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 23, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> The Melz you have in our possession is my favorite equivalent to the 6sn7, I have offered to buy any from friends if they did not like them. No one has ever sold me one so that might tell you something.



I just spent a couple of hours of this MELZ tube in my Vali and I guess I am starting to see what you mean. The sound is extremely revealing and articulated, has a beautiful tonal balance,  and still has a luxurious sheen, giving a very attractive, euphonic character. A very special signature, indeed. And, I do occasionally hear things inmy music that other tubes have not revealed. Thank you all for guiding me to these tubes.

The Russian audiophiles in the forums are divided: one part suggests all Soviet tubes are crap compared to better European and US tubes; those who like tubes made in the USSR seem to agree that this MELZ tube is the best among them.

In the same forums, I came across an idea using only half of 6SN7 type double triod as a single triod, thus having a twin setup as if they were analogues of 6J5. Well, I saw that xuling audio had an adapter for 6SN7 for place of 6J5. What if I buy two of those (surely they just disable one triod in 6SN7?), and use two MELZ 6H8C through those adapters in a split adapter for two 6J5? Nah, it goes too far on a poor Vali 2. Maybe I should find a HP amp that's using two 6SN7, and stick the MELZ pair in it for a better soundstage?


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## Paladin79 (Apr 23, 2019)

The sound is revealing in the 1578 right off the bat. I was never one for long break ins or whatever logic is supposed to be behind it. I am not familiar with using 6sn7 in place of 6j5 but I will give it some thought.

As we talked about before though, be careful of the condition of the solder work on the Melz pins, that is about the only caveat, otherwise enjoy!  Oh and since they came from an engineer, he may well have re-flowed the solder anyway. Look at the pin ends and see if they look shiny or cracked and grey.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't know who these guys are, but I can tell you that this @bcowen......{snip}.......His day will come and he will come to rue that he and I crossed paths.....{snip}........



"Rue the day, who says THAT?"
-- from _Real Genius_. When Val Kilmer did comedy. _Top Secret_ anyone?


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> The Russian audiophiles in the forums are divided: one part suggests all Soviet tubes are crap compared to better European and US tubes; those who like tubes made in the USSR seem to agree that this MELZ tube is the best among them.
> 
> In the same forums, I came across an idea using only half of 6SN7 type double triod as a single triod, thus having a twin setup as if they were analogues of 6J5. Well, I saw that xuling audio had an adapter for 6SN7 for place of 6J5. What if I buy two of those (surely they just disable one triod in 6SN7?), and use two MELZ 6H8C through those adapters in a split adapter for two 6J5? Nah, it goes too far on a poor Vali 2. Maybe I should find a HP amp that's using two 6SN7, and stick the MELZ pair in it for a better soundstage?



While I am just a novice in tubes, it would seem that using two 6SN7 in an adapter, then into a 6SN7 to 6922 is "going around the barn to get to the otherside"... 

Now a Valhalla 2 uses two 6922-type tubes and with a pairing of socketsavers(2) and a 6SN7 to 6922 adapter, those Melz would shine. I have a pair of 1951 ribbed plate Fotons that sound mighty good in the VH2.

In my opinion, the Vali 2 and a dual 6j5 adapter gets the best from the single triodes, which you have discovered. I was warned early on by both @Ripper2860 and @Paladin79 to never "double adapter" (the exception being direct wired socket-savers, and a Loctol to Octal adapters which are also a pass-through of pin-outs).

Congratulations on finding a source within Russia for the rare 1578 tubes at a very reasonable price!


----------



## Paladin79

Here is a way of lighting a dud tube without the use of LED's. You simply hook up the filaments to a quality power supply then over drive it a bit till you get the required glow. Do not try this at home kids.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 25, 2019)

I have another query. I have bought a pair of Zaerix branded 6J5GT, which are supposedly made by AEG-Telefunken in 1973. So it says on the box



The tube is rebranded by Zaerix, a British company known for purchasing tubes in the Soviet bloc, and a bit from Mullard and GE.  Apart of the Zaerix logo, it also carries another small sign:

   apologies for bad quality, it is really tiny.

Now the tube construction (left or top) looks exactly like 6S2S made by Soyuz (right or bottom).

 

except that "Telefunken" tubes have very thin hairlike something spiralling on the inner surface of the glass, almost invisible - initially, when I noticed the first one, I thought it was a crack, but no: they are regular, symmetric, 4 in each tube.

No other reference on the Internet to AEG Telefunken made 6J5 or CV1934 - except those Zaerix branded, in similar boxes.

Russian made tubes in fake Telefunken boxes? Then, what about those hairlike things? EDIT: they are fine scratches on the glass produced by 4 pointed something holding the tube symmetrically on 4 sides and pulling the tube glass envelope through tem in a turning motion 90 degrees.


----------



## Paladin79

Interesting, you are building up quite the collection.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Interesting, you are building up quite the collection.



Damn it! Had to order adjustable-cell storage boxes in China. Curious mind, stupid bitch. Telefunken has quite a reputation, I hoped it would sound special. Now I have not yet had time to evaluate. These MELZ tubes along with some 6J5 pairs coming close second seems to be it. OK, I bought one more pair in Russia, the Russians swear those triods are better than best of the 6S2S. We'll see.


----------



## Paladin79

I notice a bit more separation with single triodes but for overall listening pleasure nothing beats the Melz imho.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I notice a bit more separation with single triodes but for overall listening pleasure nothing beats the Melz imho.



Exactly (although I need more time with MELZ vs. twin Soyuz 1955). Hence the idea of using two MELZ tubes as single triods!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 25, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Apart of the Zaerix logo, it also carries another small sign:
> 
> apologies for bad quality, it is really tiny.



Managed to clarify this. It is a West German military acceptance sign, an eagle with BWB inside meaning "Bundesamt für Wehrtechnik und Beschaffung" - Federal Office of Defense Technology and Procurement. Supposedly, they were checking old Telefunken stock from 1950ties, selecting the best and repacking them, so 03 1973 is the date of certification and repacking, not production.

EDIT: presence of this sign does not guarantee that these are genuine AEG Telefunken produced tubes. It may as well be fake. Another possible explanation is that BWB is known for having certified some tubes produced abroad, and in principle could have measured and certified tubes produced in the USSR for West German military use (a little far-fetched guess for the Cold War times?)


----------



## Paladin79

This is mainly for Mr. Cowen but anyone can certainly join in. I was buying some dud tubes for some headphone stands I am building and a gentleman sent me a working RCA 6AS7G, CRC JAN clear top, three mica tube. He also threw in a Frankie 7N7 because I asked him if he ever saw those. It tests strong and works as well. I paid about $10 total for said tubes and luckily there are a couple duds in the batch or I would still be looking for tubes for my project lol. I turned around and bought ten lbs of tubes from him and explained that if he had any black or grey glass RCA 6sn7's tubes I would love them cause they cut down on the glare after I mounted an LED in the base. Whatever I end up with, I should be money ahead considering the first batch.


----------



## bcowen

Here's 2 genuine Frankies (left and right) with an imposter in the middle.  For 10 bucks the one on the right measures well enough to be worth it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-7N7-Tube...728419?hash=item340943a8a3:g:n8sAAOSwWm1cwOcz


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## Paladin79 (Apr 25, 2019)

I own more than enough for my usage right now. The middle one looks a bit shorter and the top appears to be rounded. The one I received says Philco pretty plainly and matches others I have that Ripper confirmed. I also just met a couple more Russian sellers so I would much rather pursue the Melz.  Bottom mica may be a factor on the one as well, I just saw the other pics.


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## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 26, 2019)

The tubes you are discussing such as 7N7 - I cannot figure out an adapter for Vali 2... I was looking at split options and found an adapter for 2 EC8010, but they are $70 for a pair. Anyone tried them in Vali 2? EDIT: I cannot be helped. Found two Siemens EC8010 in Quebec US$36 for two + shipping and bought them. And the adapter from Xuling Audio. You'll hear from me when they arrive.


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## Paladin79 (Apr 26, 2019)

I am not sure there is a direct adapter. I use a 6sn7 to 6922 adapter. A 7n7 is a loctal (loktal) socket and you just need a loctal to octal adapter to plug into the 6sn7 adapter. You are not really using two adapters when you do this, loctal to octal adapts pin type.  I am not familiar with the EC8010.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Loctal...546362?hash=item2ee988b5ba:g:FpEAAOSwk1JWcoEl

The 7n7 is a direct replacement for the 6sn7, with different pins. Loctal or Lock In is pretty old technology and I want to say was used from the 30's to the 50's as best I can recall.

Bill is a proponent of specific tall body 7n7 that he calls Frankentubes and I bought several just to check them out. They are good sounding tubes that are hard to find NOS but occasionally you find them, I bought a couple out of France. I had plans of making my own loctal to octal adapters but unfortunately the sockets I received from China were not very good so I am scrapping the project till I find better quality sockets. Some of the 7n7's in my possession are pretty old and some care needs to be taken with the pins to insure they are straight and clean.

The top left photo shows what I would consider to be the sought after 7n7 with adapter, in the middle are the single triode versions, 7A4, VT-192 (miliitary version), and lastly on the right a hard to find version that to me, sounds every bit as good as the first version but lacks a couple characteristics that others seek. Appropriate adapters are shown.  A 7A4 is the loctal version of a 6j5 and requires dual 7a4 to 6sn7 loctal to octal adapter.

Given a choice I prefer the dual single triode VT 192's in the Vali 2 because of the channel separation and overall great sound.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-p...155816?hash=item2ee7206628:g:ZYMAAOSwZupcTRBV


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am not sure there is a direct adapter. I use a 6sn7 to 6922 adapter. A 7n7 is a loctal (loktal) socket and you just need a loctal to octal adapter to plug into the 6sn7 adapter. You are not really using two adapters when you do this, loctal to octal adapts pin type.  I am not familiar with the EC8010.
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Loctal...546362?hash=item2ee988b5ba:g:FpEAAOSwk1JWcoEl
> ...



The one on the left is a true Frankentube as you noted.  The one on the right is an imposter. Not saying in any way that it doesn't (or can't) sound very good, just that it's not a true Frankie. The ones in the middle are HalfenFrankMutants.  Round bottom micas.  Possibly a HalfenFrank, possibly a HalfenMutantFrank. Haven't tried those yet, so can't pass along any (personal) sound impressions just yet.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 26, 2019)

I got the one on the right pretty cheap, but doubt I could pick it out in a blind listening compared to the other frankentubes. The one given to me is the real deal, the person I got this from is a little tricky to figure out, maybe just a hobbyist who just wants to unload all tubes he gets and not have to mess with them too much. I went back and bought most anything he was selling as duds for my headphone stand projects. I need small octal duds as well as large ones and it will be fun to see how many are really duds lol.

Oh yeah, I have a line on a group of Melz 1578's that are the real deal, hopefully I do not have to dip into my savings too much to grab those.

The 1579 is the 6sL7 version, it would be great if I could find something comparable to the sought after 1578 in a similar style tube but so far I have not seen it, time to investigate.


----------



## Paladin79

My finished headphone stand in quartered oak, no wires show, switch is mounted in the base for right now, batteries and LED's are replaceable, as are the tubes.


----------



## Grado Diesel

Anyone tried out a tung-sol 6sn7gt vt 231 in their vali2? I’m eyeing on online.


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## Paladin79

I have and they are very good sounding tubes. Black glass oval plates?


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## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 27, 2019)

Grado Diesel said:


> Anyone tried out a tung-sol 6sn7gt vt 231 in their vali2? I’m eyeing on online.



I have two so-called "mouse ears", grey T-plates - if that's what you mean, not marked VT 231. Excellent, euphonic sound, very clear and airy. EDIT: I see. That's different stuff. VT 231 go for $300-400 apiece. Not my league.


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## Paladin79 (Apr 27, 2019)

VT 231 is the military version, they generally say VT 231 right on the tube. Some are marked JAN as well.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> VT 231 is the military version, they generally say VT 231 right on the tube. Some are marked JAN as well.


An interesting story, Just bought 2 more MELZ 6N8S from a guy in Russia. During exchange of emails, it transpired that he - a retired Soviet high-ranking officer - bought this pair of MELZ many years ago from Canada (!). A week later he bought a pair of Tung-Sol VT-231 black glass from 1942 and ever since only listens to them, changing to a new pair every couple of years. Now, getting old, he decided to get rid of his other tubes. So I got lucky with the MELZ.


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## Paladin79 (Apr 28, 2019)

I found a seller in Russia with five Melz he had not listed but unfortunately he wanted nearly $500 for them, about the going price.

I am not sure what was so good about the year 1942 but my favorite grey glass RCA's are from that time period. Maybe just knowing what was going on with the world and the short run of grey and black glass adds to the value, or perhaps the inside coating makes a slight difference.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My finished headphone stand in quartered oak, no wires show, switch is mounted in the base for right now, batteries and LED's are replaceable, as are the tubes.



Sweet!  That's just gorgeous, Tom.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I have two so-called "mouse ears", grey T-plates - if that's what you mean, not marked VT 231. Excellent, euphonic sound, very clear and airy. EDIT: I see. That's different stuff. VT 231 go for $300-400 apiece. Not my league.



I have one Mouse Ear, bought from a vendor regularly noted here. Tests at bare minimum good levels although it was advertised as NOS. Doesn't do much for me, but that could be due to the fact it's close to dead as far as GM. I'll look for a Mouse Ear that tests well and my opinion could easily change.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 28, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I have one Mouse Ear, bought from a vendor regularly noted here.



I'm pretty sure he tube is supposed to have 2 mouse ears.  Could be why it measures low.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm pretty sure he tube is supposed to have 2 mouse ears.  Could be why it measure low.



Oh sure. Right. Like you have 2 ears or something?  Gimme a break.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> An interesting story, Just bought 2 more MELZ 6N8S from a guy in Russia. During exchange of emails, it transpired that he - a retired Soviet high-ranking officer - bought this pair of MELZ many years ago from Canada (!). A week later he bought a pair of Tung-Sol VT-231 black glass from 1942 and ever since only listens to them, changing to a new pair every couple of years. Now, getting old, he decided to get rid of his other tubes. So I got lucky with the MELZ.



_A soviet officer?! As a sea-cadet-obsessed teenager in the 80s, I had a very screwed up mental image of the Soviets. I'm not a religious man... but it's cool to see how a ColdWar veteran was able to pass on his love of analog to a former enemy. And no, I'm not going to burst into a Sting song, Russians. 
_


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> _And no, I'm not going to burst into a Sting song, Russians. _



Thank you for that.

LOL!!!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  That's just gorgeous, Tom.



Bill I will make one out of curly cherry and you can see how you like it. I left one unfinished for another friend so he could match it to a bottlehead crack case.  Soon I should have access to some aged barn wood if you like that effect more, rustic is much easier to make, a slip of a chisel or router would be less noticeable.

Shown below is an unfinished kit I just made, cat sold separately.


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## Ripper2860 (Apr 28, 2019)

Be sure to mention to Bill that is a a DYI kit, like BHC.  He'll get the parts and instructions and can then put it together himself.

Oh -- and it costs extra to substitute other tubes in place of GE.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 28, 2019)

ScubaMan2017 said:


> _A soviet officer?! but it's cool to see how a ColdWar veteran was able to pass on his love of analog to a former enemy._
> /QUOTE]



Senior Soviet officers in some branches of the service received a very good, quite comprehensive, education. Some of them have been rather cultured. Yuri Andropov is said to have had a huge collection of music recordings, including lots of Western records. Yet he also engineered masacres in Hungary and the Czech, and he was a ruthless Chairman of the KGB. Hermann Goering collected paintings, and Adolf Hitler was an artist before he became, ergh, a politician. That someone prefers Tung-Sol black glass VT-231 to MELZ 6N8S does not make one into a good guy. Maybe he listens to recorded screams of his victims, how do we know?


----------



## Ripper2860

B e sure to check he tubes for embedded listening devices and DO NOT take it anywhere near an election site.


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## Robert Padgett (Apr 28, 2019)

ScubaMan2017 said:


> _A Soviet officer?! As a sea-cadet-obsessed teenager in the 80s, I had a very screwed up mental image of the Soviets. I'm not a religious man... but it's cool to see how a ColdWar veteran was able to pass on his love of analog to a former enemy. And no, I'm not going to burst into a Sting song, Russians. _
> .




I spent my undergraduate years at Indiana University researching the Soviets and came away neither in fear of them, but with great admiration for their efforts and sacrifice in the Great Patriotic War. Because of the planned economy, the Soviets were very good at the production of items which they needed to support the Military. We benefit from the Cold War, and Stalin's Five-Year Plan--with tubes like the Melz 1578, or even the basic design of their 6H8C made at the Svetlana plant or in Tashkent, or Novosibirsk. They had production goals, and the alternative was very cold


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 28, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Be sure to mention to Bill that is a a DYI kit, like BHC.  He'll get the parts and instructions and can then put it together himself.
> 
> Oh -- and it costs extra to substitute other tubes in lace of GE.



That one is a kit, but I will build a complete one in cherry soon as a sample.

GE tubes should cost more, they are either prized possessions or folks threw them away long ago, either way they are hard to find. I am hoping for a few more when I receive several pounds of duds I ordered from the guy who sent me other tubes. If I look around enough I might find one or two as a favor to Bill.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Robert Padgett said:


> great admiration for their efforts and sacrifice in the Great Patriotic War.


I am sorry for bringing about this offtopic thing - this is about tube rolling and some great headphone stands. It is difficult for me to share this admiration of the Great Patriotic War as my late father-in-law happened to be on the other side of the Great and he spent his time in the late Fourties and early Fifties - when these great tubes were being made - in a rather cold place carrying his fellow dead inmates to the table with a hope of getting an extra portion of the grub. I once wondered if the guards had not been noticing, and he said that perhaps they did not care much, and then it must have been rather difficult to tell the dead from those who thought they were still alive. He bore no grudge though and always referred to the Russians as "those poor people".


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 28, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Senior Soviet officers in some branches of the service received a very good, quite comprehensive, education. Some of them have been rather cultured. Yuri Andropov is said to have had a huge collection of music recordings, including lots of Western records. Yet he also engineered masacres in Hungary and the Czech, and he was a ruthless Chairman of the KGB. Hermann Goering collected paintings, and Adolf Hitler was an artist before he became, ergh, a politician. That someone prefers Tung-Sol black glass VT-231 to MELZ 6N8S does not make one into a good guy. Maybe he listens to recorded screams of his victims, how do we know?



Both types are very good tubes, the Melz are easier to obtain as NOS for a lot less money from what I have seen when the round plate black glass Tung Sols sold,  I recently let a friend whom I consider to have exceptional hearing listen to several of my 6sn7's, in a blind test she chose the Melz over anything else I could plug into an amp, a Ken-Rad black glass came in second to her ears anyway.

Headphone stands are off topic so I am trying to stay more on track with tube rolling. It is not easy to think about black glass tubes from 1942 and not think about war, or the military usage of tubes.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> a lot less money from what I have seen when the round plate black glass Tung Sols sold


My perspective of the prices for Tung-Sol and Ken-Rad VT-231 changed a little once I saw the prices for Swedish military 6SN7 - 33S30A and 33S30B. To console my broken heart I did buy a RCA VT-231 (the grey glass) for $30 including shipping in France yesterday...


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> My perspective of the prices for Tung-Sol and Ken-Rad VT-231 changed a little once I saw the prices for Swedish military 6SN7 - 33S30A and 33S30B. To console my broken heart I did buy a RCA VT-231 (the grey glass) for $30 including shipping in France yesterday...


Not a bad price for the grey glass, they are getting harder to find. Here are a few variations I found in one of my RCA tube boxes.Some were more of a smoked glass, the grey glass is pretty distinctive.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Senior Soviet officers in some branches of the service received a very good, quite comprehensive, education. Some of them have been rather cultured. Yuri Andropov is said to have had a huge collection of music recordings, including lots of Western records. Yet he also engineered masacres in Hungary and the Czech, and he was a ruthless Chairman of the KGB. Hermann Goering collected paintings, and Adolf Hitler was an artist before he became, ergh, a politician. That someone prefers Tung-Sol black glass VT-231 to MELZ 6N8S does not make one into a good guy. Maybe he listens to recorded screams of his victims, how do we know?


As a middle-aged man whose parents were from Europe, I'm discovering all kinds of disturbing topics I was told as a pre-teen & teenager... that need to be privately reconsidered. @Old Deaf Donkey ... you make sense. The crimes and deadly consequences of our elders can't stay buried forever. _*I won't violate Godwin's Law*_ (with thanks to my spouse, who clarified this behaviour for me [link #1 and link #2]). Full stop.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill I will make one out of curly cherry and you can see how you like it. I left one unfinished for another friend so he could match it to a bottlehead crack case.  Soon I should have access to some aged barn wood if you like that effect more, rustic is much easier to make, a slip of a chisel or router would be less noticeable.
> 
> Shown below is an unfinished kit I just made, cat sold separately.



That's nice!  But how much for the cat?  Would love to send him (her?) to @Ripper2860 as a surprise when he's expecting the box on the porch to be a tube tester.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I am sorry for bringing about this offtopic thing - this is about tube rolling and some great headphone stands. It is difficult for me to share this admiration of the Great Patriotic War as my late father-in-law happened to be on the other side of the Great and he spent his time in the late Fourties and early Fifties - when these great tubes were being made - in a rather cold place carrying his fellow dead inmates to the table with a hope of getting an extra portion of the grub. I once wondered if the guards had not been noticing, and he said that perhaps they did not care much, and then it must have been rather difficult to tell the dead from those who thought they were still alive. He bore no grudge though and always referred to the Russians as "those poor people".



I find this Soviet-era stuff you've been telling us about extremely interesting. So please don't apologize...please continue.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

ScubaMan2017 said:


> As a middle-aged man whose parents were from Europe, I'm discovering all kinds of disturbing topics I was told as a pre-teen & teenager... that need to be privately reconsidered. @Old Deaf Donkey ... you make sense. The crimes and deadly consequences of our elders can't stay buried forever. _*I won't violate Godwin's Law*_ (with thanks to my spouse, who clarified this behaviour for me [link #1 and link #2]). Full stop.


Thank you. Did not know about this law. Could not stop laughing, still laughing!


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> That's nice!  But how much for the cat?  Would love to send him (her?) to @Ripper2860 as a surprise when he's expecting the box on the porch to be a tube tester.


Beware of house-panthers! The little buggers love to chew on cables to gain attention. We have 3 panthers. The boys are sucks & love their catmom. My fur-daughter (not a calico, mine's a vocal black cat) looks vexingly at my listening nook... and schemes... Terrible thoughts. Chewing thoughts. Kick-over-a-tube-thoughts. Often on a Sunday night.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 28, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> That one is a kit, but I will build a complete one in cherry soon as a sample.



Wow!!  Based on that pic, it seems there's a whole lot more to wiring up that LED for a HP stand tube  than one would ever imagine!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 28, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Wow!!  Based on that pic, it seems there's a whole lot more to wiring up that LED for a HP stand tube  than one would ever imagine!!



Stuffing all that circuitry inside a couple pieces of wood is not easy.  That is the inside of a Cary amp, Bill was kind enough to offer me some better capacitors and needed to see what the Mk II already had going for it now I need to reassemble it and get back to listening before the  parts arrive.  I just took some time out to show Bill what a real tube looks like. 

Ok I only have one cat that ever chewed on cables but they had to be coiled cords, he was pretty particular.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Stuffing all that circuitry inside a couple pieces of wood is not easy.  That is the inside of a Cary amp, Bill was kind enough to offer me some better capacitors and needed to see what the Mk II already had going for it now I need to reassemble it and get back to listening before the  parts arrive.  I just took some time out to show Bill what a real tube looks like.
> 
> Ok I only have one cat that ever chewed on cables but they had to be coiled cords, he was pretty particular.



Aw, crap.  The tube goes in the other side, Tom.  Yes, I'm fully aware I didn't mention that, so I guess ultimately I'm at fault.  Let me know what the repairs cost, and I'll just have to sell some more dead tubes to @Ripper2860 for 2X market price....


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 28, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Aw, crap.  The tube goes in the other side, Tom.  Yes, I'm fully aware I didn't mention that, so I guess ultimately I'm at fault.  Let me know what the repairs cost, and I'll just have to sell some more dead tubes to @Ripper2860 for 2X market price....



No wonder they keep falling out!  I am not so sure that tube is a dud but I have no use for a single 5u4GA or a single 6CA7 so I did not bother to test them. I did not hurt them when I opened them up for LED's so I may still check them one day.

I am still wondering how much blood I am going to have to sell to pay for the tubes you sent me Bill. Maybe I can bribe a local nurse to come in, pretend to be from the Red Cross, and gather blood from my employees as well. I imagine it would get used somewhere no matter how much I profited on the transaction. It is not like I am asking them for a kidney, that would take a whole lot more talking I imagine.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Aw, crap.  The tube goes in the other side, Tom.  Yes, I'm fully aware I didn't mention that, so I guess ultimately I'm at fault.  Let me know what the repairs cost, and I'll just have to sell some more dead tubes to @Ripper2860 for 2X market price....



I will not be buying my own tubes back at 2X market.  Go find another sucker.  This one's wised up.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I will not be buying my own tubes back at 2X market.  Go find another sucker.  This one's wised up.



Tubes are nothing, the guy is trying to get me to listen to music about a Cosmic Hippo. Where did you find this guy Ripper and how much is it going to cost to put him in a cardboard box and mail him back?  He has me plugging some tubes in the Cary that no one in the history of the planet has ever tried before, and I am trying to humor him as I position smoke detectors around the amp just in case.  The cats left the room, animals have a sense about these things you know.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 28, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Where did you find this guy Ripper and how much is it going to cost to put him in a cardboard box and mail him back?



I think he was forced on us as part of the deal when we bought Texas. We're probably way beyond the return window, but I guess we could claim he was defective at the outset. Even Wal-Mart takes things back sometimes without a receipt.

I'm pretty sure his brother was included in the Louisiana purchase. Not sure if he was defective though...



EDIT:  Oh, wait.  You're talking about @Zachik . My bust.  Nevermind.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I will not be buying my own tubes back at 2X market.  Go find another sucker.  This one's wised up.



Crap.  Hmmm.....where to find another sucker.  I know...……..but I can't mention the place here or the moderators would boot me.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 28, 2019)

Bill put an explosive collar around my neck and threatened to detonate if I did not do his bidding.  Sorry, Tom -- I had no choice.  My advice to you is...

"It puts the lotion on it's skin, or else it gets the hose again."


----------



## Nastrahl

So... It seems I got the rolling virus and wanted to try the dual tubes technique through this contraption beauty:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6...C88-6922-tube-converter-adapter-/201458214762

Do you think I could try myself with those easy found Sylvanias from viva tubes?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tests-NOS-M...-Black-Plate-D-Get-Vacuum-Tubes-/123725709529


----------



## Paladin79

Those should work fine, I have several sets of Sylvanias and they are among my favorites.


----------



## bcowen

Nastrahl said:


> So... It seems I got the rolling virus and wanted to try the dual tubes technique through this contraption beauty:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6...C88-6922-tube-converter-adapter-/201458214762
> 
> ...



Yes and yes.  Xulingmrs is a good vendor and builds nice quality stuff.  Have to wait a bit for it to arrive, but I've purchased quite a few items from him and it's all been good.  No experience with Viva tubes, but they certainly seem to be legit.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Bill put an explosive collar around my neck and threatened to detonate if I did not do his bidding.  Sorry, .Tom.  I had no choice.  My advice to you...
> 
> "It puts the lotion on it's skin, or else it gets the hose again."



I have a couple dozen tubes you need to pay me for.  Tom said they were too crappy for his headphone stands.

My finger is on the switch...


----------



## Paladin79

I have bought a few things from Viva and have no issues with them.


----------



## bcowen

Nastrahl said:


> So... It seems I got the rolling virus



Forgot to mention:  very sorry to hear that.  It's terminal.  Be sure to update your will ASAP so at least the wife and kids won't starve.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Nastrahl said:


> So... It seems I got the rolling virus and wanted to try the dual tubes technique through this contraption beauty:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6...C88-6922-tube-converter-adapter-/201458214762
> 
> ...


I have this adapter and I have bought some tubes from vivatubes, sometimes for $2. They all work fine.


----------



## Nastrahl

bcowen said:


> Forgot to mention:  very sorry to hear that.  It's terminal.  Be sure to update your will ASAP so at least the wife and kids won't starve.



We have no kids, we better save for tubes instead


----------



## Nastrahl

Thanks you all for your replies.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Nastrahl said:


> We have no kids, we better save for tubes instead



You seem to be going straight to the point: the twin separate triods. I went the slow, long way: ECC88 > PCC88 > 5670 > 6C8G > 6SN7 > twin 6J5. I recently thought that I should have done the same, but I put in the WE396A  yesterday, and liked it again... And then I was not a big believer in MELZ 6N8S until I tried it. Now I am eyeing the old Loctals...


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> You seem to be going straight to the point: the twin separate triods. I went the slow, long way: ECC88 > PCC88 > 5670 > 6C8G > 6SN7 > twin 6J5. I recently thought that I should have done the same, but I put in the WE396A  yesterday, and liked it again... And then I was not a big believer in MELZ 6N8S until I tried it. Now I am eyeing the old Loctals...



The twin loctal Sylvanias are very good, especially the XXL and military version. There are dual adapters made for them, usually listed as dual 7A4 to 6922 and such.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

thank you, cannot find any direct converters from 7A4 to 6922 - only 7A4 to 6SN7. I reckon I can buy two adapters 7A4 to 6J5 and then stick 7A4 with this adapter to a twin 6J5 to 6922 converter, can I not?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 29, 2019)

Sorry I have so many adapters I lose track of which will go directly to 6922. Dual 7a4 to 6sn7 adapter, then 6sn7 to 6922 works perfectly. What you are saying about the other adapters sounds perfectly doable as well.

This is the one I use:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-p...155816?hash=item2ee7206628:g:ZYMAAOSwZupcTRBV


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry I have so many adapters I lose track of which will go directly to 6922. Dual 7a4 to 6sn7 adapter, then 6sn7 to 6922 works perfectly. What you are saying about the other adapters sounds perfectly doable as well.
> 
> This is the one I use:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-p...155816?hash=item2ee7206628:g:ZYMAAOSwZupcTRBV


Maybe wrongly, but I assumed that loctal to octal adapter does not convert anything - just connects the loctal socket straight to octal base.


----------



## Paladin79

You are not thinking wrongly and you should be fine doing that. I was just saying which one I was using but there are other ways to do it.


----------



## bcowen

Nastrahl said:


> We have no kids, we better save for tubes instead



LOL!  Be sure to do the tubes first.  If you get tired of listening to them, just turn off the amp.  Much easier than having to pack up kids to send off to Grandma who will *always* send them back at some point anyway.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Maybe wrongly, but I assumed that loctal to octal adapter does not convert anything - just connects the loctal socket straight to octal base.



Nothing is technically converted per se, but the pinouts are different so the wires go to different pins between the two.  Perhaps a pointless nitpick, but consider who just posted this.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Nothing is technically converted per se, but the pinouts are different so the wires go to different pins between the two.  Perhaps a pointless nitpick, but consider who just posted this.


You find out the wiring is different the first time you build one pin to pin.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Apr 30, 2019)

bcowen said:


> The starter stash of 7A4's just arrived.  Unfortunately the adapter just arrived in NY, and will spend the requisite week on vacation there before proceeding south. Maybe next weekend I'll be able to give them a whirl.
> 
> Round black plate, but same squared off bottle top as Frankentube. What to call it....we already have Frankenminion.  Only one triode instead of 2, but HalfenFrank just doesn't flow.  Since it's closely related, how about Fran*kin*tube?
> 
> See what I did there?  LOL!!!


What did you pay for these Sylvanias? Just curious - I just bought some NOS NIB exactly same boxes, same date


----------



## ScubaMan2017

GrouchoMarx1933 said:


> Oh, mine says "Made in the USA". I just checked.


Welcome, Groucho! Re: stock tube. When I got my Vali2, its stock tube was some mysterious Russian tube. Even the sales department couldn't tell me its providence. Eventually, I went the socketsaver-adapter-6SN7 route. I've noticed  its a common sentiment on the thread -- the Vali really benefits from upgraded tubes (it turns very good sound to excellent sound). My only regret, I lost the friendly glow from the larger tube (100% aesthetic). It's my ridiculous leaning tower of Vali!


volly said:


> Ok, here is my stock tube...
> ......{snip}.....And this one is the Philips 7DJ8...
> ......{snip}......After some reading around I finally decide to roll the 7DJ8 tube in, works fine, very very quiet and first few hours of listen is a really airy and smooth sound.....{snip}....Bass is big and solid with a beautiful smooth mid range to die for! High's are noticeably more airy than the stock tube.....{snip}.....However the stock tube is a great and I mean great start, Schiit picked a very decent tube to pair with the Vali 2.......{snip}......I can't wait for this tube to really burn in and open right up.....{snip}......Got my eye on a few tubes, so stay tuned!


Instead of new-old-stock, I purchased some Slovakian glass for my Vali. Like you, @volly , it dramatically increased my perceived SQ.


NewEinstein said:


> I also received a 6BZ7/6BQ7A CANADA as the stock tube. I need to listen to it more to see what way I want to go. I will follow this thread to see how other tubes compare.


I find it interesting there's a whole bunch of different stock tubes used on our Vali2s. USA? Canada? USSR? Sure. Our littles toasters are very forgiving.


nordkapp said:


> Any thoughts on the EH 6922? I just ordered one for my V2. I know it's a big time input/gain tube for a lot of the upper echelon stereo preamplifiers out there(ARC, BAT, MCINTOSH etc.)


Electroharmonix have their diehard fans. I suspect, @nordkapp , you'll be satisfied with it. For my Vali2, I tricked it out (bigger, uglier knobs & an adaptered-6SN7 tube). I'm rocking a JJ Electronics (new production, Slovakian) tube. My Vali's set.

I fired up my new toy -- a Valhalla with (2-stock) + (2 upgraded [?]) tubes.  Plugged in my high-impedance headphones. Powered it up. Briefly listened... as the amp radiated HEAT.  And... .... .... unplugged my headphones and reattached it to my modified Vali. Yep, my Vali sounds better than my fancy-dancy Valhalla!  _*Now, of course, I'm going to let my new monster amp settle*_. This Valhalla runs HOT. *My point: *our Valis are respectable amps! If THOSE people snicker at our toasters, they know nothing.


----------



## Robert Padgett (Apr 30, 2019)

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Welcome, Groucho! -snip--
> 
> I fired up my new toy -- a Valhalla with (2-stock) + (2 upgraded [?]) tubes.  Plugged in my high-impedance headphones. Powered it up. Briefly listened... as the amp radiated HEAT.  And... .... .... unplugged my headphones and reattached it to my modified Vali. Yep, my Vali sounds better than my fancy-dancy Valhalla!  _*Now, of course, I'm going to let my new monster amp settle*_. This Valhalla runs HOT. *My point: *our Valis are respectable amps! If THOSE people snicker at our toasters, they know nothing.



An extra set of socket savers (two each tube) gets the tubes up and in the freely circulating air. Well worth it, as the metal body is not really even warm to the touch, and the only placing my hand over and almost touching the tubes, do I feel much convection heat rising from the tubes. Best way to run cooler. Heat gets trapped inside.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> What did you pay for these Sylvanias? Just curious - I just bought some NOS NIB exactly same boxes, same date



For the military boxed, 3/4 round micas?  IIRC, I paid $29 for the pair.  Got another pair for $20 from a French Ebay seller, but $10 shipping added to that. However, the rectangle plates are sounding better at this point. Not enough  experience yet to state that equivocally...more listening time needed.  I got 5 of the rectangle plates for $50 with free shipping.  Funny but all 5 of them test at 800+ GM's on the 752A where all 4 of the military boxed ones are in the 600-650 range.  Doubt that has anything to do with the SQ though (min good for the 7A4's is 400).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> For the military boxed, 3/4 round micas?  IIRC, I paid $29 for the pair.  Got another pair for $20 from a French Ebay seller, but $10 shipping added to that. However, the rectangle plates are sounding better at this point. Not enough  experience yet to state that equivocally...more listening time needed.  I got 5 of the rectangle plates for $50 with free shipping.  Funny but all 5 of them test at 800+ GM's on the 752A where all 4 of the military boxed ones are in the 600-650 range.  Doubt that has anything to do with the SQ though (min good for the 7A4's is 400).



No matter which version of the 7A4's you believe sound better, I will only have the other version, it is how things work out for me. 

I did get some Russian 7A4's last night but I had eight packages waiting for me when I got home and barely even had time to open those. I will listen to them some time.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 1, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I did get some Russian 7A4's


would you mind sharing the Russian designation for 7A4 - cannot find it


----------



## Paladin79

oops, sorry they were 6j5 Russian equivalents that you had told me about.  I got my tube numbers turned around.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> oops, sorry they were 6j5 Russian equivalents that you had told me about.  I got my tube numbers turned around.


Oh, I see. 6С2С. The initial production was in MELZ, but I have not seen even a picture, they were with metal base and some possibly metal body. Then the production started in Soyuz Novosibirsk. A couple of years (1954-55) they were done with metal base, and those sound excellent. Later years with black plastic base are of haphazard quality.


----------



## Paladin79

Yes, 6C2C.

just some of these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-RARE-M...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## bochawa

Listened to Vali 2 last night after a long hiatus.  GE JAN 5670W tube and Sennheiser HD600 - sounded great!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bochawa said:


> Listened to Vali 2 last night after a long hiatus.  GE JAN 5670W tube and Sennheiser HD600 - sounded great!


Great picture, too! Must be long exposure...


----------



## bochawa

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Great picture, too! Must be long exposure...


I'm not sure what kind of magic my Galaxy S10e was performing in the photo editor, but the magic wand produced a good image.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ...but I had eight packages waiting for me when I got home and barely even had time to open those.



Well, none of the 8 were from me. I was a slacker like usual and didn't get to the PO Monday.  Did get it sent yesterday though so should hit your mailbox on Friday.  If you get 8 other packages on Friday too, open mine first 'cause it will be the best.  LOL!!!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, none of the 8 were from me. I was a slacker like usual and didn't get to the PO Monday.  Did get it sent yesterday though so should hit your mailbox on Friday.  If you get 8 other packages on Friday too, open mine first 'cause it will be the best.  LOL!!!



What you are sending will require me tearing down my amp again and I just got it back together. 
There may just be a package heading your way one day soon as well. Something that suits your soif de vie and joie de vivre.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> What you are sending will require me tearing down my amp again and I just got it back together.
> There may just be a package heading your way one day soon as well. Something that suits your .



What possible use could you have for a working amp?  You midwesterners are_ *so*_ hard to figure out sometimes.  

And as soon as I figure out what _soif de vie_ and_ joie de vivre_ mean I'll know whether to look forward to it.....or pack up the house and move somewhere unknown in the middle of the night.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 1, 2019)

bcowen said:


> What possible use could you have for a working amp?  You midwesterners are_ *so*_ hard to figure out sometimes.
> 
> And as soon as I figure out what _soif de vie_ and_ joie de vivre_ mean I'll know whether to look forward to it.....or pack up the house and move somewhere unknown in the middle of the night.


But you have such a cool street name!  My favorite quote by that gentleman (Mark Twain) is "You can learn things by carrying a cat around by the tail, that you can learn no other way."

I do have the tube lighting down using LED's, I could make it look like the amp was operational.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My favorite quote by that gentleman (Mark Twain) is "You can learn things by carrying a cat around by the tail, that you can learn no other way."



I'd be surprised if that wasn't a favorite of @Ripper2860 too.  He's one of the biggest cat lovers I know.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'd be surprised if that wasn't a favorite of @Ripper2860 too.  He's one of the biggest cat lovers I know.


 But they are so helpful!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> But they are so helpful!



Yeah, and if you need to clean out a really small socket contact, some DeOxit sprayed on a whisker works great.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yeah, and if you need to clean out a really small socket contact, some DeOxit sprayed on a whisker works great.



I will have to remember that. So you know, the guy I am getting tubes from for the headphone stands has 500,000 tubes in storage, some stored as many as 20 years.  As he finds a dud here and there I may well be set for life for the stands and I am buying some working tubes from him as well.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 1, 2019)

I need to test a few tubes. Where is Bill when you need him?  What is up with these stupid tubes with the black glass it is hard to see the plates and such?


----------



## Grado Diesel

Big tube sale at Tube Depot for 24 hours. Anyone know how the 5687 sounds in the Vali2?


----------



## Grado Diesel

Any of these particularly good with the Vali2? And I’m Not talking about those ones around $1000
https://tubedepot.com/t/tubedepot-sale


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I need to test a few tubes. Where is Bill when you need him?  What is up with these stupid tubes with the black glass it is hard to see the plates and such?



I just finished (like, I mean 10 minutes ago just finished) the 539B.  Finally.  She's sweet.  Specs pretty much dead-on -- plate at 150.3v, screen at 130.5v, filaments all close to center of the range specs, bias within 1 volt or less across the scale. Line voltage is off by a volt or so depending on where I set the variac, but I just can't muster up the motivation to worry about it. Especially when probably 75% of these vintage testers out there that people are spouting out test measurements for on Ebay would be lucky to be within 50 volts.  So I'm gonna be happy with it.    Now if I only had some tubes to test.... LOL!


----------



## triggsviola

Grado Diesel said:


> Any of these particularly good with the Vali2? And I’m Not talking about those ones around $1000
> https://tubedepot.com/t/tubedepot-sale


I’m eyeing the Sylvania 6SN7. I could use those in both my Vali and my Euforia.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I just finished (like, I mean 10 minutes ago just finished) the 539B.  Finally.  She's sweet.  Specs pretty much dead-on -- plate at 150.3v, screen at 130.5v, filaments all close to center of the range specs, bias within 1 volt or less across the scale. Line voltage is off by a volt or so depending on where I set the variac, but I just can't muster up the motivation to worry about it. Especially when probably 75% of these vintage testers out there that people are spouting out test measurements for on Ebay would be lucky to be within 50 volts.  So I'm gonna be happy with it.    Now if I only had some tubes to test.... LOL!


That's got an impressive k/in² (knobs per square inch) factor.


----------



## Keno18

Grado Diesel said:


> Any of these particularly good with the Vali2? And I’m Not talking about those ones around $1000
> https://tubedepot.com/t/tubedepot-sale


The rca 6cg7 clear top I've read is good. Haven't heard it myself. The 1940s Sylvania 6sn7gt looks interesting but above my price range.


----------



## bcowen

Grado Diesel said:


> Any of these particularly good with the Vali2? And I’m Not talking about those ones around $1000
> https://tubedepot.com/t/tubedepot-sale



I see several I'd recommend that you DON'T buy, irrespective of the need for an adapter.  Here's one:





Anything you see with Philips "ECG" and blue print is bad.  Really bad.  Four-letter word bad starting with F.  I'm convinced that ECG is code for Extremely Crappy Garbage.  They all suck. Bad.  Maybe even worse than GE tubes.  Sounds impossible I know, but it's possible GE made all these and then branded them for Philips.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> That's got an impressive k/in² (knobs per square inch) factor.



LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I need to test a few tubes. Where is Bill when you need him?  What is up with these stupid tubes with the black glass it is hard to see the plates and such?



I need to know where this guy's stash is so I can go pilfer through it. I'd be looking for good tubes, so no risk of conflict between us, Tom.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I need to know where this guy's stash is so I can go pilfer through it. I'd be looking for good tubes, so no risk of conflict between us, Tom.


Did I say these were duds? I am getting a high percentage of good but need to get busy with other things. So many tubes, so little time.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Did I say these were duds? I am getting a high percentage of good but need to get busy with other things. So many tubes, so little time.



If you want me to test them for you, I can guarantee a very high, almost unbelievably high percentage of duds. Will that help?  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If you want me to test them for you, I can guarantee a very high, almost unbelievably high percentage of duds. Will that help?  LOL!


I best take my chances with my own tester and amps, but I will make sure there is a black glass tube heading your way soon. In the meantime I am busily ordering more.


----------



## Mr Trev

Mr Trev said:


> That's got an impressive k/in² (knobs per square inch) factor.





bcowen said:


> LOL!



I grew up with 70's/80's vintage stereo gear. You could always tell the quality of a device by how many switches and buttons it had


----------



## triggsviola

I bought the Sylvania 6SN7gt. Hopefully it’s good.


----------



## Paladin79

triggsviola said:


> I bought the Sylvania 6SN7gt. Hopefully it’s good.



Those are usually very decent tubes, a few sound a bit better than others but I cannot think of a Sylvania tube I own that I have been disappointed with.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Grado Diesel said:


> Big tube sale at Tube Depot for 24 hours. Anyone know how the 5687 sounds in the Vali2?


It'd be ridiculous; however, I wonder how our little modified toasters (big knob + socket-saver + 6SN7 adapter) would respond to a $100 1940-era Sylvania 6SN7GT?


----------



## Paladin79

ScubaMan2017 said:


> It'd be ridiculous; however, I wonder how our little modified toasters (big knob + socket-saver + 6SN7 adapter) would respond to a $100 1940-era Sylvania 6SN7GT?



I have used several tubes that good or better in the Vali 2, the amp has some limitations but the change of tubes can bring about some good effects. I get very good results with Sylvania 6j5's in the amp and notice less channel separation changes in other amps I try.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Paladin79 said:


> I have used several tubes that good or better in the Vali 2, the amp has some limitations but the change of tubes can bring about some good effects. I get very good results with Sylvania 6j5's in the amp and notice less channel separation changes in other amps I try.


It might be heresy, but I prefer my Vali sound over MY new TOY (Valhalla2 with upgraded 6N1P tubes). Weird...


----------



## Paladin79

ScubaMan2017 said:


> It might be heresy, but I prefer my Vali sound over MY new TOY (Valhalla2 with upgraded 6N1P tubes). Weird...



I never noticed much change in tube rolling in the Valhalla 2 and finally sold it, it is an accurate amp but it did not have the tube sound I wanted.

I might invest in something like this before spending too much on a single VT 231 Sylvania, at $100 to $150 list that is getting close to "bad boy" territory.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-Of-6-S...120765?hash=item364c4985bd:g:H-8AAOSwCtJcw5HB


----------



## Robert Padgett

ScubaMan2017 said:


> It might be heresy, but I prefer my Vali sound over MY new TOY (Valhalla2 with upgraded 6N1P tubes). Weird...


I don't really compare the two...I like the Valhalla 2. and I listen to the Vali 2 every night. Today the Vali 2 is sporting a new production Telefunken E88CC-TK, which is a different sound quality than the 1953 Mouse-ears or the Naughty Girls in the dual adapter.  
The Valhalla 2 has the "Unknown" 6DJ8 tubes, which are a better match than any 6SN7 types I own (across the board for enjoyable HP listening at MAX volume.) I have ordered a 12a*7 adapter set for Valhalla 2, to try some vintage 12au7 tubes which still are reasonable. 
I agree with @Paladin79, the Vali 2 platform shows the most difference in "rolling" tubes. The Valhalla is not a tube-rolling platform, for me, because the 6SN7 tubes I have sounded rather bloated, almost Too-Tubey, by comparison to the 6922-type tubes. Your mileage may vary. 
A good set of 6DJ8 tubes might make your Valhalla sound more balanced.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Anyone ever tried these?


----------



## Paladin79

nope. 6J5's maybe?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> nope. 6J5's maybe?



Yes and no. Russian 6С5С, analogue of 6C5GT. Tantal factory, Saratov, 1955. Electrically somewhat compatible with 6J5, as I stuck them into the same converter (after consulting some Russian engineers - I am a Donkey, I was afraid to fry my Vali!). They say its is a tetrode, connected as triode internally. Many Russian audiophiles suggest they sound "better", than 6C2C. Well. I need more time, out of the box they sound extremely transparent (bright in a positive sense, not tizzy), resolving, fast and balanced. Not really known among us in Europe and USA (and forgotten in Russia), hence cheap on ebay, a pair for $20-30 including shipping. 

Bought from this fellow:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-RARE-NE...94D-6C5GT-USSR-TRIODE-from-50-s-/302558192706

They were also made by Reflector factory in Saratov.


----------



## Paladin79

I love the looks of them, I will await your final work on how they sound before buying any.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Anyone ever tried these?



At first glance I thought it was an EF86 (which is a noval). I'll be most interested in your sonic evaluation as well once you spend some time with them.





Had a little extra time to spend listening to the 7A4's, and the rectangle mica version (right) has a definite leg up on the (mostly) round mica version (left).  More body and weight, more layering in the soundstage, more depth of tone.  Interestingly, of the few I have on hand the round micas are the military versions, and the rectangles are just plain Jane Sylvanias (have 2 with Sylvania logos, one with a TungSol logo, and one with a GE logo....but internal construction is identical between them). Both versions sound really good though. Definitely worth the price of the adapter and getting some while the prices are still relatively cheap.  

Nice find, Tom!!!


----------



## Paladin79

Drat now I have to check my stock of 7A4’s cause Bill could be right???  Oh bother!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Drat now I have to check my stock of 7A4’s cause Bill could be right???  Oh bother!!



_Could_?


----------



## Paladin79

Ok you bribed me with capacitors, it must be a surety, maybe, I guess.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok you bribed me with capacitors, it must be a surety, maybe, I guess.



You should have full confidence in all possible maybe's I offer.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

After some hours, my take of 6C5C by Tantal, Saratov in Vali2 on AKG K702: initial extreme transparency acquired a nice sheen without obstruction or coloration, but precise placement, accurate timbres, balanced tonality with tight bass, analytical resolution, very fast rise and decay, and agile dynamics remain. All these qualities together create a wonderfully honest and realistic, and complex, whilst relaxing, sound signature.

A good example is Jascha Heifetz and Richard Ellsasser playing Vitali's _Chaconne in G minor_. Heifetz, _Der Teufelsgeiger,_ is taking his Guarneri to extremes _sul ponticello _but it never sounds shrill; at the same time Ellsasser's organ remains soft, but clear, not muddled. And take Heifetz playing _Grave _from Bach's _Sonata No. 2 in A minor_, played mostly _sul tasto, _and almost _flautando: _so airy and soft. Few tubes would discern these timbral differences so revealingly._ 
_
I have put in the MELZ 6H8C to compare. Well, even crisper detail (and more of it), deeper contrast, more romantic dynamics. But, that _sul ponticello _sounds thinner, almost hysterical. And things that sounded so different in character on 6C5C sound a little bit the same. Suddenly I start hearing some "weaknesses" of MELZ 6H8C: it seems that its own strong - if so appealing - character sometimes overwhelms the character of the performed music. At times, it is like seeing a 8k promotional video for the first time: extremely rich in colour, crisp, resolving, contrasting, but somehow too good to be true. Some reds just too red, and greens too green - if you know what I mean.

I put the twin 6C5C back into my Vali 2. The wave of unadulterated realism hits my senses, and that luxurious sheen of an old tube radio... Are they better, than MELZ 6H8C? I do not care. From this point, I can only say that I like the sound signature of those 6C5C very much, and they have come to stay among my small set of tubes that I listen to frequently. I will  buy more pairs.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 3, 2019)

Well said ODD.

I have found the Melz to be so different and deep in mids that they are hard to compare to other tubes I have in my possession (on a given day I have at least 100 variations) yet I know what you are saying. I prefer the Melz in other amps, in the Vali 2 they almost seem too intense. I put two of them in my Freya and it changes the sound signature more than any other pair of 6sn7 equivalents I own. In an Aune or Bottlehead Crack, they are magical. They may be a bit amp dependent but the first instant I heard them in the Vali, I thought wow, how different sounding!  They are still my favorite, but I do like the separation of single triodes and to date some 7A4's and 6J5 (both Sylvania brands) are still my favorites in that kind of setup.

I am taking the time to hear a pair of Russian 6C2C's and the bass is decent, mids are coming around. Not bad at all so far.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> . In an Aune or Bottlehead Crack, they are magical.



Would you recommend Aune T1 SE MK3 - it is $140 on Massdrop now? I reckon I could use it in the bedroom with some of those tubes that I do not particularly like in Vali2...


----------



## Paladin79

I like them and would recommend it, I have 3 or 4 of them. It is a tube type DAC as well as an amp, I couple one with the Vali as well.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I prefer the Melz in other amps, in the Vali 2 they almost seem too intense.




Maybe if you tried some better headphones?

Just a thought.


----------



## triggsviola

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Would you recommend Aune T1 SE MK3 - it is $140 on Massdrop now? I reckon I could use it in the bedroom with some of those tubes that I do not particularly like in Vali2...



I believe it's just called "Drop" now. And it has new and improved prices.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Maybe if you tried some better headphones?
> 
> Just a thought.


Beautiful colour scheme. Maybe Schiit would adopt it for their stuff?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Maybe if you tried some better headphones?
> 
> Just a thought.



Ugh you mean I should trash my Sennheisers and Beyers?

Changing caps in the Cary, about done. Then I will work on a special project for Bill.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

triggsviola said:


> I believe it's just called "Drop" now. And it has new and improved prices.


the products are still named "Massdrop", though. transition.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ugh you mean I should trash my Sennheisers and Beyers?



Well, yeah.  What would you need them for after the Jelly Comb's arrive?   

How are the KT-90's doing?  No smoke stacks or anything I hope?


----------



## Paladin79 (May 3, 2019)

I am playing the amp now and the caps really helped. So far those tubes are fine.

I got through the changes pretty quickly, I had everything in place when I started lol


I am very pleased with the cap change, now I need new speakers lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am playing the amp now and the caps really helped. So far those tubes are fine.
> 
> I got through the changes pretty quickly, I had everything in place when I started lol.



Coolness.  Now all you need is a pair of Mullard CV378's and you'll be done.  LOL!!


----------



## Paladin79

You are a bad influence Bill.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ...now I need new speakers lol.



Word is that these mate up very nicely with the SLA amps.  Haven't heard them myself, so you'll just have to _not_ trust me on this.


----------



## Paladin79

It will be Sonus Faber for me, but not in that price range lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You are a bad influence Bill.



Thanks!  Since @Ripper2860 is out of town, _someone_ has to step up to the plate.

Wait...that _*was*_ a compliment, right?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It will be Sonus Faber for me, but not in that price range lol.



Too cheap?  Crap.  I know you have expensive tastes Tom, but I was trying to keep things at least somewhat affordable.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 3, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Too cheap?  Crap.  I know you have expensive tastes Tom, but I was trying to keep things at least somewhat affordable.



Me? I buy dud tubes cause I cannot afford working ones. I have to light them artificially. One day I hope to buy a transistor or maybe a diode.

Oh and I do have some of the rectangular bottom mica Sylvanias but it was hard to see in these particular industrial rated tubes. 7A4.  I had to come up with something, @bcowen was tube shaming me with his favorite version.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Me? I buy dud tubes cause I cannot afford working ones. I have to light them artificially.



I understand @Robert Padgett has at least one without any glass.  I bet you could sweet talk him into an awesome deal on that one.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh and I do have some of the rectangular bottom mica Sylvanias but it was hard to see in these particular industrial rated tubes. 7A4.  I had to come up with something, @bcowen was tube shaming me with his favorite version.



That looks suspiciously like a re-labeled GE.  Nice try though, Tom.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That looks suspiciously like a re-labeled GE.  Nice try though, Tom.  [/QUOTE



And you like them? Something is not adding up!!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Something is not adding up!!!



No, no, mine are genuine.  

LOL!!


----------



## Paladin79 (May 4, 2019)

bcowen said:


> That looks suspiciously like a re-labeled GE.  Nice try though, Tom.





bcowen said:


> No, no, mine are genuine.
> 
> LOL!!


so you say. Methinks something is rotten in North Carolina.  I am starting to think Bill only buys tubes that has the 188 code on them and his hero is really Thomas Alva Edison. By bashing GE he is able to buy the tubes at bargain prices.


----------



## triggsviola

Paladin79 said:


> Those are usually very decent tubes, a few sound a bit better than others but I cannot think of a Sylvania tube I own that I have been disappointed with.



The Sylvania 6SN7GT came in today and before even burning in, I already like it better than the Tung Sol or the PSVane I had in there. More detail and sparkle, but losing none of the warmth. This is my first vintage tube. I’m excited to get my next one.


----------



## Paladin79

triggsviola said:


> The Sylvania 6SN7GT came in today and before even burning in, I already like it better than the Tung Sol or the PSVane I had in there. More detail and sparkle, but losing none of the warmth. This is my first vintage tube. I’m excited to get my next one.


You may want to hide from Bill, it sounds like you are hooked, as are many of us.


----------



## triggsviola




----------



## Paladin79 (May 4, 2019)

Any three digit numbers on the tube?  I spent part of the afternoon working with some red cedar out of Texas, another headphone stand featuring a black glass National Union tube.


----------



## Mr Trev

triggsviola said:


>



Damn, that's one fancy looking adapter. What is it?


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Any three digit numbers on the tube?  I spent part of the afternoon working with some red cedar out of Texas, another headphone stand featuring a black glass National Union tube.


The weight of the headphones won't pull the tubes out of the sockets?


----------



## Paladin79 (May 4, 2019)

Mr Trev said:


> The weight of the headphones won't pull the tubes out of the sockets?


Nope and if they do so much as tilt, a drop of hot glue seals the deal.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> I understand @Robert Padgett has at least one without any glass.  I bet you could sweet talk him into an awesome deal on that one.





triggsviola said:


>


Whats the whyte doodah under the tube - an adapter? What brand, if I may?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Whats the whyte doodah under the tube - an adapter? What brand, if I may?



It's a tubeocharger. 

(sorry)


----------



## bcowen

triggsviola said:


> The Sylvania 6SN7GT came in today and before even burning in, I already like it better than the Tung Sol or the PSVane I had in there. More detail and sparkle, but losing none of the warmth. This is my first vintage tube. I’m excited to get my next one.



And then wait until you get the next one. And then the one after that. And the next one after that. And the.....

Oh nevermind.  You're screwed.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I spent part of the afternoon working with some red cedar out of Texas, another headphone stand featuring a black glass National Union tube.



They have trees in Texas?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> They have trees in Texas?


I may have a few pieces of the last one, it was probably in Rippers front yard.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I may have a few pieces of the last one, it was probably in Rippers front yard.



Figures he'd be hoarding trees too...


----------



## Ripper2860

Nope.  Allergic to Cedar pollen.  Elm and Live Oaks are my trees of choice when it comes to adorning the yard.   

And all the Texas trees ( e.g. large shrubs) were hoarded long before I got here, unless you go to East Texas piney woods near the Louisiana border.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Nope.  Allergic to Cedar pollen.  Elm and Live Oaks are my trees of choice when it comes to adorning the yard.
> 
> And all the Texas trees ( e.g. large shrubs) were hoarded long before I got here, unless you go to East Texas piney woods near the Louisiana border.



You have yards in Texas?

Man, all the stuff I'm learning today.


----------



## Ripper2860

Technically -- YES.  But by NC standards, it's about the size of a utility easement.


----------



## triggsviola

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Whats the whyte doodah under the tube - an adapter? What brand, if I may?



I got it off Woo Audio’s website. It’s just a 6SN7 to 6922 adapter. It seems better built than the cheap one off Tube Depot. I can discern no difference in sound, though.

Woo Audio has a whole page of adapters.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

triggsviola said:


> I got it off Woo Audio’s website. It’s just a 6SN7 to 6922 adapter. It seems better built than the cheap one off Tube Depot. I can discern no difference in sound, though.
> 
> Woo Audio has a whole page of adapters.


They do, indeed. But the prices!


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Nope and if they do so much as tilt, a drop of hot glue seals the deal.



Doesn't the hot glue complicate rolling?

You should make a smaller version, for IEMs, using 9 pin tubes and made to look like a drag racing christmas tree.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 5, 2019)

Mr Trev said:


> Doesn't the hot glue complicate rolling?
> 
> You should make a smaller version, for IEMs, using 9 pin tubes and made to look like a drag racing christmas tree.



Hot glue responds to heat and releases when you want it to.

As far as drag racing and smaller tubes, it is not my style but an interesting idea.  I mainly wanted a headphone stand that matched an amp I modified heavily using quartered oak and patinated copper. I will add copper to the stand one day.

I was running out of ideas for Schiit coaster amps including mounting one inside an eight ball, I gave up on the ideas of mounting one as a snow globe or inside a scotch bottle but I made a lot of variations.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> They do, indeed. But the prices!


Ooof. Took a look at the $. Too rich for my blood.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was running out of ideas for Schiit coaster amps including mounting one inside an eight ball, I gave up on the ideas of mounting one as a snow globe or inside a scotch bottle but I made a lot of variations.



Is that tethered down in case it lifts off unexpectedly by itself?  

Big points for creativity in any event!


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Hot glue responds to heat and releases when you want it to.
> 
> As far as drag racing and smaller tubes, it is not my style but an interesting idea.  I mainly wanted a headphone stand that matched an amp I modified heavily using quartered oak and patinated copper. I will add copper to the stand one day.
> 
> I was running out of ideas for Schiit coaster amps including mounting one inside an eight ball, I gave up on the ideas of mounting one as a snow globe or inside a scotch bottle but I made a lot of variations.



A snowglobe amp would be awesome! That crap they use for liquid cooling PCs is supposedly non-conductive, non corrosive


----------



## Mr Trev

Even better… a lava-lamp amp!


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> A snowglobe amp would be awesome! That crap they use for liquid cooling PCs is supposedly non-conductive, non corrosive


Mineral water is an answer I was told, but sealing it and allowing for inputs and outputs and the power supply is problematic.

The flying saucer coaster amp was sound sensitive and the lights changed and blinked accordingly.


----------



## Mr Trev

Buy this…





Put the amp _inside_ the tube.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Buy this…
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I LOVE it!!  Except like a ship in bottle, which do you build first?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Mineral water is an answer I was told, but sealing it and allowing for inputs and outputs and the power supply is problematic.
> 
> The flying saucer coaster amp was sound sensitive and the lights changed and blinked accordingly.



I used to use stuff like this back when I wasted money on liquid-cooled PC's.  Can't tell you if it was truly non-conductive because I never had a leak that would have tested it.

http://www.xoxide.com/primoice-nonconductive-fluid-clear.html


----------



## Ripper2860

Mineral oil works nicely if one wanted to submerge electronics in a liquid.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Mineral oil works nicely if one wanted to submerge electronics in a liquid.


I meant to say that earlier but it came out mineral water instead. Long day for me.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Mineral oil works nicely if one wanted to submerge electronics in a liquid.



I'm now thinking of the potential of overclocking the Lyr 3.  Wonder what a 6SN7 would sound like with 1500 volts plate current?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'm now thinking of the potential of overclocking the Lyr 3.  Wonder what a 6SN7 would sound like with 1500 volts plate current?


That sounds like a perfectly wonderful idea, I am sure the look on the Schiit technicians face will be priceless after he receives your Lyr 3 back for warranty repair.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> That sounds like a perfectly wonderful idea, I am sure the look on the Schiit technicians face will be priceless after he receives your Lyr 3 back for warranty repair.



Whew.  I can deal with that. What worried me was you busting my chops (and rightfully so) for using voltage to describe a current measurement.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Whew.  I can deal with that. What worried me was you busting my chops (and rightfully so) for using voltage to describe a current measurement.



Both are present and measurable and as long as you are talking about your own amps, I figured whatever you do is between you, your neighbors, your insurance company and your local fire department.


----------



## Grado Diesel

ScubaMan2017 said:


> It'd be ridiculous; however, I wonder how our little modified toasters (big knob + socket-saver + 6SN7 adapter) would respond to a $100 1940-era Sylvania 6SN7GT?


I don’t know but I find my little toaster to sound so much bigger with any 6SN7 series tubes. Particularly the Tung-sol mouse ears and the Sylvania chrome dome.


----------



## Grado Diesel

I got my RCA Brazilian NOS 6FG7/6CG7. Wicked impressed so far. Not as bright as new EHX 6CG7. Killer soundstage. Little bit airy too. Bass is warm and tight. Top end bright to a point but not brash or on the edge of distortion.


----------



## Paladin79

Grado Diesel said:


> I don’t know but I find my little toaster to sound so much bigger with any 6SN7 series tubes. Particularly the Tung-sol mouse ears and the Sylvania chrome dome.


6sn7's and variations thereof are about all I use in the Vali and two other amps that used to take 12AU7's and 6922's.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> an amp I modified heavily using quartered oak and patinated copper.



Since I have seen this I cannot stop salivating, making slurping sounds, hallucinating, throwing fits of mad laughing and planning how I will fit my small cheap amps and DACs into something similar, sketching various options and searching vintage gauges on the net. I have no joining skills, but even a Donkey can dream. Oh, yes!


----------



## Paladin79 (May 6, 2019)

Work I did for a buddy, The gauges are not expensive but you need to understand some basic electronics to set them up properly. Once you put a 2.5 pound copper plate on top of one inch thick quartered oak, you begin to worry less about small vibrations.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Work I did for a buddy, The gauges are not expensive but you need to understand some basic electronics to set them up properly. Once you put a 2.5 pound copper plate on top of one inch thick quartered oak, you begin to worry less about small vibrations.


... mumbles and giggles incomprehensibly, twitches and shakes occasionally...


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 6, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Work I did for a buddy, The gauges are not expensive but you need to understand some basic electronics to set them up properly. Once you put a 2.5 pound copper plate on top of one inch thick quartered oak, you begin to worry less about small vibrations.



Awwww.  You really shouldn't have. Thank you so much, Tom.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Awwww.  You really shouldn't have. Thank you so much, Tom.



I tried to send something to Bill but his standards are too high and my work is not good enough!  I seem to recall building one or two things for you anyway.


----------



## Ripper2860

Drats -- I was hoping you had forgotten.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I tried to send something to Bill but his standards are too high and my work is not good enough!



Huh?  My standards are most certainly within reason. You just keep telling me you don't have all the parts yet. But I'm being patient. And I already told you it doesn't have to be red, even if people would easily mistake me for Tom Selleck when driving it.  Black or British racing green will be acceptable.  Standards, schmandards...I'm actually quite easy to please.


----------



## Paladin79

That is an odd looking El Camino, or did you say Ranchero?  I was trying to find Tarheal blue but everyone kept saying it was baby blue so I gave up.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 6, 2019)

Bill is a AMC Matador man, so I'm sure he'd prefer the upscale Oleg Cassini Brougham.  He actually owns a Matador X, but the person who sold it to him convinced Bill it was a Mazda RX-8.  (Don't tell him it's not -- it would totally break his heart.)

Oooops.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Bill is a AMC Matador man, so I'm sure he'd prefer the upscale Oleg Cassini Brougham.  He actually owns a Matador X, but the person who sold it to him convinced Bill it was a Mazda RX-8.  (Don't tell him it's not -- it would totally break his heart.)
> 
> Oooops.



Oh, come on. Do you guys _really_ not know what an RX-8 looks like?  Here you go.  In fact, I took this picture just this last weekend while mine was parked in Richard's front yard.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Oh, come on. Do you guys _really_ not know what an RX-8 looks like?  Here you go.  In fact, I took this picture just this last weekend while mine was parked in Richard's front yard.


There are trees in Texas after all, I imagine the dogs have to walk a long way to lift a leg.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 6, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Oh, come on. Do you guys _really_ not know what an RX-8 looks like?  Here you go.  In fact, I took this picture just this last weekend while mine was parked in Richard's front yard.



Geez.  I offered my ranch to you and your family so ya'll could host that reunion after your family was acquitted of charges (on a technicality) for making illegal moonshine.  I'll never know why your folks decided to park their cars in my yard.  There was plenty of parking around back of the guest house over by the barn and oil well.    



Paladin79 said:


> There are trees in Texas after all, I imagine the dogs have to walk a long way to lift a leg.



Texas dogs all know how to drive an ATV, so they can get pretty much anywhere they need to lickity-split.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Geez.  I offered my ranch to you and your family so ya'll could host that reunion after your family was acquitted of charges (on a technicality) for making illegal moonshine.  I'll never know why your folks decided to park their cars in my yard.  There was plenty of parking around back of the guest house over by the barn and oil well.



I told them to park in back, but since we didn't know when the dumpster was going to be emptied nobody wanted to risk blocking it.


----------



## Grado Diesel

Paladin79 said:


> 6sn7's and variations thereof are about all I use in the Vali and two other amps that used to take 12AU7's and 6922's.


I rolled the RCA for the morning and then pulled out my ole Genelex ECC88 Gold lion. I gotta say that is one good sounding tube even though it’s modern Russian made tube and its 6922/12ax7 size. Are there any 6SN7 size tubes still in production worth checking out?


----------



## Keno18

Grado Diesel said:


> I rolled the RCA for the morning and then pulled out my ole Genelex ECC88 Gold lion. I gotta say that is one good sounding tube even though it’s modern Russian made tube and its 6922/12ax7 size. Are there any 6SN7 size tubes still in production worth checking out?


Sophia Electric blue glass 6sn7 is new production. Depending on the class you want runs $99.99 to $199 99. I haven't been able to find a review I trust yet.


----------



## Paladin79

you can look for tests like this, I run the CBS/Hytron 5692's in the Freya myself but they are not modern tubes, the others are.


----------



## Ripper2860

Psvane HiFi UK are pretty highly regarded and are new production.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 10, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Had a little extra time to spend listening to the 7A4's, and the rectangle mica version (right) has a definite leg up on the (mostly) round mica version (left).  More body and weight, more layering in the soundstage, more depth of tone.  Interestingly, of the few I have on hand the round micas are the military versions, and the rectangles are just plain Jane Sylvanias (have 2 with Sylvania logos, one with a TungSol logo, and one with a GE logo....but internal construction is identical between them). Both versions sound really good though. Definitely worth the price of the adapter and getting some while the prices are still relatively cheap.


Yeah, just received 13 Sylvania military 7A4, NOS NIB. 3 from 1943, the rest from 1945.




All with D-Shaped mica. My luck?

All hopes now in ones branded PHILCO, as I got a couple - but the bottom mica is also D-shaped...



or maybe those branded CBS by Hytron - got 16 pieces of those, they all have a tiny rectangular bottom mica?

 

There are 226 pieces NOS NIB consumer 7A4 Sylvanias available where I got all these. I wonder should I go back and get some of those as well? For $5 apiece, they are a bargain.


----------



## bcowen (May 10, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Yeah, just received 13 Sylvania military 7A4, NOS NIB. 3 from 1943, the rest from 1945.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Uh-oh.  Looks like we're going to have to reassign your Homeroom to the Hoarders room.  At least there's someone there you already know:  @Ripper2860    But seriously, at $5 each how can you NOT stash up?  Screaming great deal to be sure.

I prefer the small rectangle mica version. But that's just me with my 'phones and my tastes, and it may be different for you. So give 'em both a fair listening trial.  Are these tubes tested, or do you have any way of testing them?  I have maybe a dozen in total right now, and fortunately all of them have tested with no ugly problems like shorts or interelement leakage. Some test with higher GM than others, but all have been decent. Still I have a paranoia about sticking any tube in my amp that hasn't at least been tested for shorts and leakage.

I haven't done a lot of research on this tube type. But it's dual triode brother (the 7N7) was made only by Sylvania and National Union, so regardless of the brand marking it was made by one of those two. Not sure if the 7A4 follows in step, but I suspect that it does. I'll have to do some more reading.  But I bet if you look at the internal construction between the brands they're all the same. There are some differences internally between the D-mica and rectangle mica versions beyond just the mica shape. Perhaps different manufacturers or maybe just related to the year(s) of manufacture.  But all the D-micas are identical internally (as are the rectangle micas) among the few tubes I have with Sylvania, GE, and Philco brands on the outside.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 10, 2019)

It is nice to see so many of those tubes still available as NOS. Not many folks know about them I suspect unless they studied their tube manuals. The book Tube Lore has been a big help to me but I also own many of the RCA and Sylvania books

Today I hope to try some Foton 6H8C's from 1954 with ribbed plates. A 6sn7 equivalent.


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## Old Deaf Donkey (May 10, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Uh-oh.  Looks like we're going to have to reassign your Homeroom to the Hoarders room.  At least there's someone there you already know:  @Ripper2860    But seriously, at $5 each how can you NOT stash up?  Screaming great deal to be sure.
> 
> I prefer the small rectangle mica version. But that's just me with my 'phones and my tastes, and it may be different for you. So give 'em both a fair listening trial.  Are these tubes tested, or do you have any way of testing them?  I have maybe a dozen in total right now, and fortunately all of them have tested with no ugly problems like shorts or interelement leakage. Some test with higher GM than others, but all have been decent. Still I have a paranoia about sticking any tube in my amp that hasn't at least been tested for shorts and leakage.



Thank you. No, not tested. So, what now - spend $300 for tester? I do not even know how to operate it! I should buy a spare Vali 2 for $149 in case of toasting - that's half the price!


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thank you. No, not tested. So, what now - spend $300 for tester? I do not even know how to operate it! I should buy a spare Vali 2 for $149 in case of toasting - that's half the price!


In B stock maybe $99 plus shipping. I have had decent success with NOS and if I plug them into the Vali I rarely test them first but I would not do that with other amps I own.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thank you. No, not tested. So, what now - spend $300 for tester? I do not even know how to operate it! I should buy a spare Vali 2 for $149 in case of toasting - that's half the price!



While those of us with a more chronic and debilitating case of tube disease prefer a good transconductance tester, there's no need to spend big dollars on one. But if you're going to be buying untested tubes, it's well worth the money (IMO) to get at least a decent emission tester that will do a thorough job of checking for catastrophic tube issues like dead shorts and high element leakage (issues that _could_ cause harm to your amp).  The Sencore Mighty Mites are well known for having excellent short/leakage detection circuits, and while they only do an emission check for output, they'll also let you know if the triodes in a dual triode tube are matched up reasonably well.  Just one example below. These pop up on Ebay an a very regular basis. Not difficult at all to learn how to operate it. Kind of fun actually (well, fun for warped individuals like myself), but more importantly it's the best way to insure you don't fry an amp with a bad tube.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WORKING-SE...470235?hash=item5d8b074ddb:g:6hMAAOSwZEhcvkt6





A couple of things to consider though on _any_ tester: 1) that it has the sockets and setup data for the tubes you want to test. It would kinda suck to buy one to test all these 7A4's and then find out what you just bought doesn't have a loctal socket (or the setup data for that tube), and 2) many (if not most or even all) of these vintage testers will need to have their electrolytic capacitors replaced. 30+ years on an electrolytic is well past its intended lifetime. If you can solder, it's a pretty simple routine on most of these. Usually only a few caps, usually quite easy to get to, and replacements are readily available from Mouser or DigiKey for a few dollars each.  And I've been known to help out a fellow HeadFi'er or two that doesn't solder if asked nicely.   

There are several sites that have manuals and tube data for lots of these testers.  Steve Johnson's site is great for Hickoks, and the site below is great for lots of other testers. So best to check for available info AND make sure any tester you might consider will do what you want.  This is the downloadable manual for the Sencore I posted above....and it has the socket and setup data for 7A4's:

https://elektrotanya.com/sencore_mi...0,_tc136,_tc142_or_tc154.pdf/download.html#dl


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Today I hope to try some Foton 6H8C's from 1954 with ribbed plates. A 6sn7 equivalent.



Those tubes really suck.  You should probably just send them to me and avoid all that impending misery. You know how I like to help.  

Seriously, you _are_ aware that those need a stupid amount of break-in time?  There's a wild roller coaster ride between "Awesome!" and "Sucks!" until you get around 100 hours on them.  Just didn't want you thinking everyone else's ears were broken with the inevitable "Sucks!" initially.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> In B stock maybe $99 plus shipping. I have had decent success with NOS and if I plug them into the Vali I rarely test them first but I would not do that with other amps I own.



So then what you're saying is that you don't really care about the Vali?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 10, 2019)

One more find - JAN CRC 6SN7-GT grey/"smoked" glass, RCA round label. Very dark, almost black, no translucence at all, hole in this graey covering on the top with a small silver "coin" right above the heater. Found it in France at junk dealer - $25. So, not tested. Risked sticking it in my Vali. Playing it now. Maybe needs time to heat up properly, but already sounds beautifully - very tight and fast bass, splendid balance. More on it later.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> While those of us with a more chronic and debilitating case of tube disease prefer a good transconductance tester, there's no need to spend big dollars on one. But if you're going to be buying untested tubes, it's well worth the money (IMO) to get at least a decent emission tester that will do a thorough job of checking for catastrophic tube issues like dead shorts and high element leakage (issues that _could_ cause harm to your amp).  The Sencore Mighty Mites are well known for having excellent short/leakage detection circuits, and while they only do an emission check for output, they'll also let you know if the triodes in a dual triode tube are matched up reasonably well.  Just one example below. These pop up on Ebay an a very regular basis. Not difficult at all to learn how to operate it. Kind of fun actually (well, fun for warped individuals like myself), but more importantly it's the best way to insure you don't fry an amp with a bad tube.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/WORKING-SE...470235?hash=item5d8b074ddb:g:6hMAAOSwZEhcvkt6
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for your generous and detailed advice. I'll try to bid on it when the date comes close. In your experience, what would be the order of the winning bid?

I have two cousins who are radio/electronic engineers. One is older than myself, and whilst well familiar with tubes (and maybe still in possession of a working tester or several), would probably solder anything to his pecker instead of the plate and blow his house up (still "working" for a TV network as a manager of one-man emergency/backup studio in a secondary town, tho'). He lives far away, otherwise I'd try and take the tubes to him to test. The other one is younger and modern, runs his own small business, and if I asked him to solder anything for me would probably tell me to stick it up my arse along with a hot soldering iron and see if it worked.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So then what you're saying is that you don't really care about the Vali?


I am pragmatic about such things. The Vali needs to take care of itself.
  Who came up with the 100 hour burn in on Foton tubes and how did they find that out? It is like who ate the first oyster? Is it a Bill thing?

If a tube actually sounds that bad or fluctuates so much, why leave it in an amp and hope it changes???

Just wondering.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> One more find - JAN CRC 6SN7-GT grey/"smoked" glass, RCA round label. Very dark, almost black, no translucence at all, hole in this graey covering on the top with a small silver "coin" right above the heater. Found it in France at junk dealer - $25. So, not tested. Risked sticking it in may Vali. Playing it now. Maybe needs time to heat up properly, but already sounds beautifully - very tight and fast bass, splendid balance. More on it later.


Now you are getting into some serious tubes, some of those RCA’s are among my favorites.


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## Ripper2860 (May 10, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I am pragmatic about such things. The Vali needs to take care of itself.
> Who came up with the 100 hour burn in on Foton tubes and how did they find that out? It is like who ate the first oyster? Is it a Bill thing?
> 
> If a tube actually sounds that bad or fluctuates so much, why leave it in an amp and hope it changes???
> ...



Bill's a glass is 1/2 full / optimistic kinda guy.  He will never throw a tube away unless he has given that little darling every opportunity to succeed.  

I can affirm that the Foton sounded smoother and more refined after extensive amount of time.  While it never really sounded 'terrible', it did sound better after settling in. I really think 'Bat Man' Bill is highly treble sensitive.  

BTW -- You know the tube I sent you is a 50s ribbed Foton, right?


----------



## Paladin79 (May 10, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Bill's a glass is 1/2 full / optimistic kinda guy.  He will never throw a tube away unless he has given that little darling every opportunity to succeed.
> 
> I can affirm that the Foton sounded smoother and more refined after extensive amount of time.  While it never really sounded 'terrible', it did sound better after settling in. I really think 'Bat Man' Bill is highly treble sensitive.
> 
> BTW -- You know the tube I sent you is a 50s ribbed Foton, right?


I do know that. Had it been broken in for 100 hours? I never asked. I do believe it is a 1953, I got a matched set of 1954’s for possible use in the Freya.

Coming from the engineering community, I have just never come across anything scientific on what burn in actually changes except for putting time on a tube.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Coming from the engineering community, I have just never come across anything scientific on what burn in actually changes except for putting time on a tube.



One Russian engineer once wrote to me that if a tube has been lying long unused, it needs to work for some hours before "the vacuum is fully restored". He mentioned 20-30 hours. Does it make sense?


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> Coming from the engineering community, I have just never come across anything scientific on what burn in actually changes except for putting time on a tube.



Yeah, I know.  I struggle with it, too.  I finally just gave up trying to understand it and just accepted it as one of life's mysteries.


----------



## Paladin79

Nope lol, I have heard the theory that o


Old Deaf Donkey said:


> One Russian engineer once wrote to me that if a tube has been lying long unused, it needs to work for some hours before "the vacuum is fully restored". He mentioned 20-30 hours. Does it make sense?


um no, and I cannot imagine a tube going from a plenum state to a vacuum state and back again lol.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> I am pragmatic about such things. The Vali needs to take care of itself.
> Who came up with the 100-hour burn in on Foton tubes and how did they find that out? It is like who ate the first oyster? Is it a Bill thing?
> 
> If a tube actually sounds that bad or fluctuates so much, why leave it in an amp and hope it changes???
> ...



I am wondering the same thing, although I have given a pair of Fotons more than 100-hours of signal with thermal cycling (not continuous, but broken up with cooling off in powered down.) Even after such valiant efforts, the October 1951 ribbed-plate Fotons were never better than a mismatched pair of 1957 USA Tung-Sols which I paid the princely sum of Three for $11. 
I paid $42 for the matched pair from a fellow in Russia, it took a short eternity for them to arrive, and I purchased a Valhalla 2 for the express purpose of using these 'Magical' cold-war leftovers. Individually, on the Vali 2, they sound NO better than short tubed Tung-sol and Motorola 6SN7 which tested below "good" and were 3 for $10.
I will admit when they were "sounding good" they sounded very good, but the rest of the time, they were no better than fingernails on a chalkboard, or a Tomcat screeching his undying love in the middle of the night. 
Hence, my 6SN7 collection is for use only on the Vali 2, and I am sticking to 9-pin miniature tubes on Valhalla 2, which are higher gain, and more engaging ($20/matched pair of "Unknown" NOS-testing 6DJ8) 
I don't feel "snookered" by the Foton deal, but I am sure I could have found much better sounding tubes domestically and probably got 4 for $42...Live and learn.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am pragmatic about such things. The Vali needs to take care of itself.
> Who came up with the 100 hour burn in on Foton tubes and how did they find that out? It is like who ate the first oyster? Is it a Bill thing?
> 
> If a tube actually sounds that bad or fluctuates so much, why leave it in an amp and hope it changes???
> ...



The hundred hour thing is a Bill thing. Maybe it's more like 99, or 103. Not totally sure.  

When I got my first one (a '58), I put it in the Lyr and let it warm up for a couple hours. Took a listen and really liked it.  The next evening, it didn't sound good. Hashy, spiky, gritty, etc.  So I yanked it out of the Lyr and stuck it in the tester to see if something had gone whacko. Tested just fine with no changes from the initial test I gave it before putting it in the amp. Put it back in the Lyr, let it warm up a while, and listened again. Still bad. It was late, so I just left it in there with the amp on. Sat down the next night, and damn if it didn't sound good again. Chalked it up to just needing some break-in time. Next night? Guess what? Back to the hashy gritty sound. Argh!  Didn't listen much more that night, but the next night...back to sounding great. It was after about the 5th night (total "on" time of around 100 hours) that it continued to sound great and never reverted back to the hashy gritty sound.  So of course now I'm doubting myself. Was the tube changing? Or was I? I'm sure we all have those nights when we sit down to listen and everything is awesome and everything just sounds great and then those nights where things just don't seem to click or gel, even though nothing has changed in the system. Maybe it's mood. Physical changes in the ears, sinuses, whatever. Power feed from the electrical utility. Sun spot activity. Who the hell knows. But was that maybe what was happening here?  So trying to determine what was what, I stick in an unused '57. Same routine. Not hour per hour exactly, but the same thing with the great on one listen and crap on the next...until it had around that hundred hours on it. Then I got some ribbed plates, first some '53's, then some '51's. Same routine with both of them. I'm not making this crap up just for entertainment, it's how it happened...for me anyway.  And I've heard from more than one other Foton acquirer that the break-in period is uneven and makes a pretty substantial difference with these tubes. So either they're just humoring me, or actually relating their experience as similar.  What's the scientific explanation? I don't know. Probably isn't one. But I've been down that rabbit hole argument enough times in my life I won't even pretend like I'm gonna do it again.   .


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thank you very much for your generous and detailed advice. I'll try to bid on it when the date comes close. In your experience, what would be the order of the winning bid?
> 
> I have two cousins who are radio/electronic engineers. One is older than myself, and whilst well familiar with tubes (and maybe still in possession of a working tester or several), would probably solder anything to his pecker instead of the plate and blow his house up (still "working" for a TV network as a manager of one-man emergency/backup studio in a secondary town, tho'). He lives far away, otherwise I'd try and take the tubes to him to test. The other one is younger and modern, runs his own small business, and if I asked him to solder anything for me would probably tell me to stick it up my arse along with a hot soldering iron and see if it worked.



That one I linked is one of the later models. It's all solid state -- I think -- haven't checked to be sure. The later ones tend to fetch more. I'd guess that one will end up in the $200 - $225 range as it looks to be in very nice condition. The earlier Mighty Mites usually go for less. I picked one up for $80 several months ago in good (but not pristine) condition. Still a very capable tester for the shorts and leakage testing.  

And the soldering iron/arse thing is, um, a rather painful envisioning.  Maybe just twist the wire leads together, add a couple drops of hot glue on top and call it good.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 10, 2019)

bcowen said:


> The hundred hour thing is a Bill thing. Maybe it's more like 99, or 103. Not totally sure.
> 
> When I got my first one (a '58), I put it in the Lyr and let it warm up for a couple hours. Took a listen and really liked it.  The next evening, it didn't sound good. Hashy, spiky, gritty, etc.  So I yanked it out of the Lyr and stuck it in the tester to see if something had gone whacko. Tested just fine with no changes from the initial test I gave it before putting it in the amp. Put it back in the Lyr, let it warm up a while, and listened again. Still bad. It was late, so I just left it in there with the amp on. Sat down the next night, and damn if it didn't sound good again. Chalked it up to just needing some break-in time. Next night? Guess what? Back to the hashy gritty sound. Argh!  Didn't listen much more that night, but the next night...back to sounding great. It was after about the 5th night (total "on" time of around 100 hours) that it continued to sound great and never reverted back to the hashy gritty sound.  So of course now I'm doubting myself. Was the tube changing? Or was I? I'm sure we all have those nights when we sit down to listen and everything is awesome and everything just sounds great and then those nights where things just don't seem to click or gel, even though nothing has changed in the system. Maybe it's mood. Physical changes in the ears, sinuses, whatever. Power feed from the electrical utility. Sun spot activity. Who the hell knows. But was that maybe what was happening here?  So trying to determine what was what, I stick in an unused '57. Same routine. Not hour per hour exactly, but the same thing with the great on one listen and crap on the next...until it had around that hundred hours on it. Then I got some ribbed plates, first some '53's, then some '51's. Same routine with both of them. I'm not making this crap up just for entertainment, it's how it happened...for me anyway.  And I've heard from more than one other Foton acquirer that the break-in period is uneven and makes a pretty substantial difference with these tubes. So either they're just humoring me, or actually relating their experience as similar.  What's the scientific explanation? I don't know. Probably isn't one. But I've been down that rabbit hole argument enough times in my life I won't even pretend like I'm gonna do it again.   .




I suspected it was a Bill thing so I was just messing with you. Maybe those tubes are like the Melz and have some suspect solder work, one time you plug them in and everything is making contact and voila! they are suddenly wonderful lol. Maybe it is like drinking a whole bunch of fine scotch, are your taste buds the same then or are you better off switching to cheap stuff cause it does not matter. Each of us are different, you would think speakers would not change a lot but on certain days I really love a set I have hooked up to the Cary, on other days, meh.

I am the opposite, I heard the Melz, they were wonderful out of the box, they have not changed for the better or worse for me, and I feel that way about most tubes I own, but many are vintage and had plenty of hours put on them. Now were the hours all in a row so the cathode coating was not subjected to stops and starts and remained nice and smooth?  (that is one pseudo theory I have heard) I have no way of knowing. Tubes age, emission decreases, other malfunctions can occur, that makes sense to me.

I know it is impossible to argue what someone believes they hear so I will not. If you are happier running all tubes for 100 hours, or some of them, or whatever and you are happy with the results, so be it

Above are the two fotons, same year, same markings, same factory. The one on the left has solderwork about like all the Melz I have seen, the one on the right has solder that resembles Sylvania or RCA tubes to me. I will leave the solders untouched and see if one behaves better or worse over time or fluctuates. If that happens and it is the one on the left, I will redo the solder and try again. These tubes are 64 years old lol, oh yes I will check them on my tube tester as well.

Ok one of these registered really low emission on one side, the one I felt the solder work looked suspect, I re-flowed the pins and suddenly it that side went into the good range on the tester, other side stayed fine. Had I just plugged it in, it may have sounded better and worse at times I bet.

Unfortunately there is still too great a difference between triodes to make that tube usable, the second is fine and sounds good. These are most likely not NOS as proclaimed, or even tested but like most of the Fotons, not expensive.


----------



## bcowen (May 10, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I suspected it was a Bill thing so I was just messing with you. Maybe those tubes are like the Melz and have some suspect solder work, one time you plug them in and everything is making contact and voila! they are suddenly wonderful lol. Maybe it is like drinking a whole bunch of fine scotch, are your taste buds the same then or are you better off switching to cheap stuff cause it does not matter. Each of us are different, you would think speakers would not change a lot but on certain days I really love a set I have hooked up to the Cary, on other days, meh.
> 
> I am the opposite, I heard the Melz, they were wonderful out of the box, they have not changed for the better or worse for me, and I feel that way about most tubes I own, but many are vintage and had plenty of hours put on them. Now were the hours all in a row so the cathode coating was not subjected to stops and starts and remained nice and smooth?  (that is one pseudo theory I have heard) I have no way of knowing. Tubes age, emission decreases, other malfunctions can occur, that makes sense to me.
> 
> ...



The visible soldering on those is pretty interesting. Hard to believe they came out of the same factory, where you'd expect them to be the same (whether both crappy or both great).  The amount of crud on the pins looks pretty consistent for Fotons though.    The biggest issue I've had with Fotons has been interelement leakage indicated on the Hickok. Problem is that there does not seem to be any consensus anywhere as to how much leakage is too much, and at what leakage reading harm (or additional stress) may occur with an amp.  I've read in one place that anything around 1 megohm is bad and shouldn't be used. Another says 3. Another says 5. Some say if you don't get a shorts indication (light or pegged meter) don't worry about it all. I've chunked a half-dozen of them with high readings just 'cause I'd rather not risk it.  Something tells me that interelement leakage testing would not have been incorporated into every tube tester ever made if it was something you just didn't need to worry about. Maybe the tubes I chunked would have been OK. Guess I'll never know, but at least I haven't blown up my Lyr.  Yet.    Funny thing is that I have yet to get any interelement leakage reading on any US-made tube. Ever.  I've had some with dead shorts, but never any that registered leakage. No issue with the Melz either...just the Fotons, and it's not limited with them to the 6H8C's.  Have had it show up in their 6N1P's and 6N3P's too.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> I am wondering the same thing, although I have given a pair of Fotons more than 100-hours of signal with thermal cycling (not continuous, but broken up with cooling off in powered down.) Even after such valiant efforts, the October 1951 ribbed-plate Fotons were never better than a mismatched pair of 1957 USA Tung-Sols which I paid the princely sum of Three for $11.
> I paid $42 for the matched pair from a fellow in Russia, it took a short eternity for them to arrive, and I purchased a Valhalla 2 for the express purpose of using these 'Magical' cold-war leftovers. Individually, on the Vali 2, they sound NO better than short tubed Tung-sol and Motorola 6SN7 which tested below "good" and were 3 for $10.
> I will admit when they were "sounding good" they sounded very good, but the rest of the time, they were no better than fingernails on a chalkboard, or a Tomcat screeching his undying love in the middle of the night.
> Hence, my 6SN7 collection is for use only on the Vali 2, and I am sticking to 9-pin miniature tubes on Valhalla 2, which are higher gain, and more engaging ($20/matched pair of "Unknown" NOS-testing 6DJ8)
> I don't feel "snookered" by the Foton deal, but I am sure I could have found much better sounding tubes domestically and probably got 4 for $42...Live and learn.



Just think how easy it would be if there was universal agreement on one perfect tube for any given component.  Wouldn't need a forum --- just a webpage:  For Schiit Lyr 3, use an XXX Sylvania. For the Schiit Vali 2, use an XXX RCA. For the Schiit MJ2, use an XXX Brimar.   Etc etc etc.  

Sorry the Fotons didn't work for you. There are a couple tubes that get a lot of mention and praise here and elsewhere that to me are, well, nice tubes but not favorites by any means. Different tastes, different preferences, different associated equipment, different expectations...they all come into play.  And I suspect our ears are far more of a factor than anyone ever seems to talk about. Even youngsters don't have perfectly flat hearing response -- there are differing sensitivities at different frequencies.  For us old farts, the spread and/or decrease in those sensitivities just gets worse....until it's gone altogether.  In the not too distant future, I'll probably be leaving Head-Fi and spending my time on a hearing aid forum.  Wonder if anyone has introduced a tube-driven hearing aid yet?


----------



## Robert Padgett (May 10, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Just think how easy it would be if there was universal agreement on one perfect tube for any given component.  Wouldn't need a forum --- just a webpage:  For Schiit Lyr 3, use an XXX Sylvania. For the Schiit Vali 2, use an XXX RCA. For the Schiit MJ2, use an XXX Brimar.   Etc etc etc.
> 
> Sorry, the Fotons didn't work for you. There are a couple of tubes that get a lot of mention and praise here and elsewhere that to me are, well, nice tubes but not favorites by any means. Different tastes, different preferences, different associated equipment, different expectations...they all come into play.  And I suspect our ears are far more of a factor than anyone ever seems to talk about. Even youngsters don't have perfectly flat hearing response -- there are differing sensitivities at different frequencies.  For us old farts, the spread and/or decrease in those sensitivities just gets worse....until it's gone altogether.  In the not too distant future, I'll probably be leaving Head-Fi and spending my time on a hearing aid forum.  Wonder if anyone has introduced a tube-driven hearing aid yet?


I was told that the Valhalla 2 may not be the best platform for the Fotons by others, so I know that with over 100 hours, they are very sweet sounding on the Vali 2, and I have two, and still only two, ears and 24-hours.
If one was interested in the pair, just as they are (pre-broke-in, but not broken) I am sure you might have a very special 6922/E88CC/6DJ8 matched pair worth roughly the $40 I have in the Fotons and help these elderly 68-year old (Oct 51-ribbed plates) Soviet Veterans live out their respective lives on a better fitting amplifier.


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> Just think how easy it would be if there was universal agreement on one perfect tube for any given component.  Wouldn't need a forum --- just a webpage:  For Schiit Lyr 3, use an XXX Sylvania. For the Schiit Vali 2, use an XXX RCA. For the Schiit MJ2, use an XXX Brimar.   Etc etc etc.
> 
> Sorry the Fotons didn't work for you. There are a couple tubes that get a lot of mention and praise here and elsewhere that to me are, well, nice tubes but not favorites by any means. Different tastes, different preferences, different associated equipment, different expectations...they all come into play.  And I suspect our ears are far more of a factor than anyone ever seems to talk about. Even youngsters don't have perfectly flat hearing response -- there are differing sensitivities at different frequencies.  For us old farts, the spread and/or decrease in those sensitivities just gets worse....until it's gone altogether.  In the not too distant future, I'll probably be leaving Head-Fi and spending my time on a hearing aid forum.  Wonder if anyone has introduced a tube-driven hearing aid yet?


Funny you should mention aging hearing. I was just diagnosed with severe nerve damage to my hearing due to age. I was about to give up this hobby until today when I visited an audiologist that showed me the advances in hearing aids. Not only do they restore much of my hearing but they work with headphones, she said she has other clients, a musician among them, who are avid HP users and find the aids work very well. So in a couple of weeks I'll have mine and I will continue down this rabbit hole.


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## Ripper2860 (May 10, 2019)

bcowen said:


> For us old farts, the spread and/or decrease in those sensitivities just gets worse....until it's gone altogether. In the not too distant future, I'll probably be leaving Head-Fi and spending my time on a hearing aid forum. Wonder if anyone has introduced a tube-driven hearing aid yet?



As luck would have it ...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> As luck would have it ...



So_ that's _what those pockets are for!  Guess I'm a generation behind for handkerchiefs....someone invented Kleenex along the way.


----------



## Paladin79

Back to the drawing board for me to find some 6sn7 pairs for the Freya. I may just bite the bullet and get a quad of Melz 1578's (6N8S) and be done with it. If something happens to one of them I will have back ups for other amps.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Ripper2860 said:


> As luck would have it ...



That would be absolutely great! However, tube rolling looks a little complicated. Maybe someone would design a backpack version, so I could roll the tubes that I already have, such as 7A4. A headband version would also be nice, with the tubes exposed on the top, beautifully lit.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> And I suspect our ears are far more of a factor than anyone ever seems to talk about. Even youngsters don't have perfectly flat hearing response -- there are differing sensitivities at different frequencies.  For us old farts, the spread and/or decrease in those sensitivities just gets worse....until it's gone altogether.  In the not too distant future, I'll probably be leaving Head-Fi and spending my time on a hearing aid forum.  Wonder if anyone has introduced a tube-driven hearing aid yet?



Hehe. I have already spent some time on the hearing aids. Ended up buying cheap "hearing amplifiers" $10 each in China, USB chargeable. Work great for me and for my octogenarian mother.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 11, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Back to the drawing board for me to find some 6sn7 pairs for the Freya. I may just bite the bullet and get a quad of Melz 1578's (6N8S) and be done with it. If something happens to one of them I will have back ups for other amps.


Hm. It would look good to use 4 dual adapters and e.g. 2 twin Russian 6C5C for preamp and 2 twin Sylvania 7A4 for drivers. Xuling Audio would need to redesign the adapters with pins on the side.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Ripper2860 said:


> As luck would have it ...



I found a right one - on the wheels. 5 proper tubes. What?


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Hm. It would look good to use 4 dual adapters and e.g. 2 twin Russian 6H5C for preamp and 2 twin Sylvania 7A4 for drivers. Xuling Audio would need to redesign the adapters with pins on the side.


I am no so sure there is enough space for that or what I would gain by doing it, single triodes work well in the Vali and Aune but I doubt I would come close to the sound of some of the 6sn7's as far as overall SQ.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I am no so sure there is enough space for that or what I would gain by doing it, single triodes work well in the Vali and Aune but I doubt I would come close to the sound of some of the 6sn7's as far as overall SQ.


But the looks...


----------



## Paladin79

Trust me, I have enough tubes in other amps and use the twin tube adapters all the time. I really did not notice that much better separation in the Bottlehead Crack but I tried it.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> One more find - JAN CRC 6SN7-GT grey/"smoked" glass, RCA round label. Very dark, almost black, no translucence at all, hole in this graey covering on the top with a small silver "coin" right above the heater. Found it in France at junk dealer - $25. So, not tested. Risked sticking it in my Vali. Playing it now. Maybe needs time to heat up properly, but already sounds beautifully - very tight and fast bass, splendid balance. More on it later.


...and it has that _*slightly*_ off-kilter look (just like mine). Nice!


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Paladin79 said:


> Trust me, I have enough tubes in other amps and use the twin tube adapters all the time. I really did not notice that much better separation in the Bottlehead Crack but I tried it.


_Sweet mother of Glod_. On a Bottlehead?! I have a lot to learn with this new hobby...


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I found a right one - on the wheels. 5 proper tubes. What?



Now _that's_ perfect!  One hand pulling that cart, and the other dragging the oxygen tank.  

The scary part is that I'm getting old enough to actually visualize that.


----------



## Paladin79

I may well be ahead of you looking back. 

I will most likely start with a matched pair of 1578's and add another later on if the prices are not to my liking.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Trust me, I have enough tubes in other amps and use the twin tube adapters all the time. I really did not notice that much better separation in the Bottlehead Crack but I tried it.



I trust you on that. It was just a jealous joke.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I trust you on that. It was just a jealous joke.


No offense taken, I do not even use Frankie’s in the Freya, most of my adapters will not fit and I do not want to void the warranty. I could do the mods of course but will not lol.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Now _that's_ perfect!  One hand pulling that cart, and the other dragging the oxygen tank.
> 
> The scary part is that I'm getting old enough to actually visualize that.



I'd pass on it, Bill.  That would leave no hand free with which to fondle your tubes.  A definite non-starter!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'd pass on it, Bill.  That would leave no hand free with which to fondle your tubes.  A definite non-starter!!



That's what my other hand would be for.  Wait....what?  You only have 2 hands?  Accident or something?


----------



## bcowen

First genuine Frankentube I've seen on Ebay in a while. Price is on the high side, but not terrible.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/233223982150?ul_noapp=true








But then we have "Bad Boy" 7N7's. Really? I guess any tube with 3 holes in the plates is now a Bad Boy?  Give me a friggin' break.  These aren't even very good 7N7's to boot -- the round bottom mica versions are just nothing special at all...even at a quarter of the asking price.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/233223977567?ul_noapp=true


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 11, 2019)

bcowen said:


> That's what my other hand would be for. Wait....what? You only have 2 hands? Accident or something?



Sorry.  I forgot that you are the spawn of Chernobyl parents.  



bcowen said:


> But then we have "Bad Boy" 7N7's. Really? I guess any tube with 3 holes in the plates is now a Bad Boy? Give me a friggin' break. These aren't even very good 7N7's to boot -- the round bottom mica versions are just nothing special at all...even at a quarter of the asking price.



Geez.  Quit skimming, Bill.  They are not advertised as 'Bad Boy' 7N7 tubes.  It states that they are 7N7 tubes tested on a 'Bad Boy' radio guitar amplifier.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 11, 2019)

bcowen said:


> First genuine Frankentube I've seen on Ebay in a while. Price is on the high side, but not terrible.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/233223982150?ul_noapp=true
> 
> ...



I have so many of the Frankies that I am using them as duds in my headphone stands.   I am making one out of barn wood to match an outdoor table I made from the same material. The loktals seem to stay in the sockets better than octals, they take the headphone weight stress better.


----------



## Ripper2860

I LOVE it!!!!   Rustic -- very Texas!!


----------



## Paladin79

Well yeah but there is no place on this to hang a steers horns or a saddle but it might do. Once I have this down I might be coerced into building you one. I have done stranger things for water from Scotland that was somehow allowed to sit in barrels for 17 years or so, after being subjected to barley malt and perhaps smoke from peat moss

I seem to recall you and Bill favor GE tubes, I just happen to have some in my stash right now.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> It states that they are 7N7 tubes tested on a 'Bad Boy' radio guitar amplifier.



Then kindly inform me what a "bad boy radio guitar amplifier" is.  I mean I kinda know what a bad boy is (you?) and I kinda know what a radio is and I kinda know what a guitar amplifier is but I kinda have no clue why anyone would combine two of them together, let alone three.  Is this a Texas thing maybe?


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 11, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Well yeah but there is no place on this to hang a steers horns or a saddle but it might do. Once I have this down I might be coerced into building you one. I have done stranger things for water from Scotland that was somehow allowed to sit in barrels for 17 years or so, after being subjected to barley malt and perhaps smoke from peat moss
> 
> I seem to recall you and Bill favor GE tubes, I just happen to have some in my stash right now.



I was thinking 'Jackelope' ...  





bcowen said:


> Then kindly inform me what a "bad boy radio guitar amplifier" is.  I mean I kinda know what a bad boy is (you?) and I kinda know what a radio is and I kinda know what a guitar amplifier is but I kinda have no clue why anyone would combine two of them together, let alone three.  Is this a Texas thing maybe?



While everything is 'Bigger and Badder' in Texas, I cannot elaborate further on your query other than to state it was nearly completed by SRV prior to his death.  State Secret.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have so many of the Frankies that I am using them as duds in my headphone stands.



Then you obviously need to buy those bad bay radio guitar amplifier tubes. Bet you don't have any of those.


----------



## Paladin79

I had to search the whole country for these tubes, only the best for you guys.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm sure it was quite an extensive search to locate 'dud' versions of such excellent tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

Well they are not always duds, but I cannot seem to buy the large tubes fast enough. I have a whole bunch of EL 34's I have not even tested. They do not have the classic style of the ST tubes so I have not used them much.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I had to search the whole country for these tubes, only the best for you guys.



@Ripper2860 is the GE aficionado.  I've heard he'll do 1-for-1 swaps with Brimars, GEC's, Valvos, Telefunkens….anything for a GE instead.


----------



## Ripper2860

Shhhhh.  Don't tell Bill, but I've heard that some of the GE power tubes are pretty highly regarded and sound awesome after 200 hours.  Apparently he quit on them at 100 hours.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 11, 2019)

The tube on the right is black glass, and you have heard of ladder plates. This one has step ladder plates, just barely visible through one part of the glass.

I have this down pretty well by now, I already have the tubes wired, front and back, sockets in place.  Both GE tubes, the larger of the two I would have liked to mount higher but I did not want to cut half way through the knot.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> First genuine Frankentube I've seen on Ebay in a while. Price is on the high side, but not terrible.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/233223982150?ul_noapp=true



If I may - are they usable in Vali 2 with an adapter 7N7 > 6SN7 and then into converter 6SN7 > 6922?


----------



## Paladin79

Yep


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 12, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Yep


Thank you. I will ask the liquidator where I got all those bargain 7A4: 7N7 did not show in his database but on the main website it shows quantities of RCA, Sylvania and MIL (Military), and some quantities w/out brands indicated. I'll ask him to go the dusty storage and make pics - he did that for me with 7A4s. EDIT: Same with 6C8G, 6F8G - plenty of tubes, and just checked 6SN7 - also plenty. Will be fun if they let me go to that storage...


----------



## Paladin79

Tall bottle 7n7’s, plenty of the short version around.  Get a photo then Bill can tell you if you are on the right track. If he offers to buy them, then you really know they are good.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 11, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> If I may - are they usable in Vali 2 with an adapter 7N7 > 6SN7 and then into converter 6SN7 > 6922?



Yep.  That would work. You can also use that setup with 7AF7s.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The tube on the right is black glass, and you have heard of ladder plates. This one has step ladder plates, just barely visible through one part of the glass.
> 
> I have this down pretty well by now, I already have the tubes wired, front and back, sockets in place.  Both GE tubes, the larger of the two I would have liked to mount higher but I did not want to cut half way through the knot.



Sweet!  Love the LED's...you have them at just the right brightness.  What kind of batteries are you using and how long do they last?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Shhhhh.  Don't tell Bill, but I've heard that some of the GE power tubes are pretty highly regarded and sound awesome after 200 hours.  Apparently he quit on them at 100 hours.



You are correct (huh?) about the GE 211's. Pretty awesome tubes. But you know, I've never researched them to see if GE actually made them.  Entirely possible they were made by RCA who was kind of the standard setter of that particular tube type.  And the 3.25 AMPS of heater current is probably a wee bit above the safety margin for the Lyr, so I'm probably not going to spend time researching them further.  Wonder if Xulingmrs makes an adapter?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  Love the LED's...you have them at just the right brightness.  What kind of batteries are you using and how long do they last?


Two 2032 batteries. 3 volts each. I have not had to change batteries yet but I do not run the LED’s all day so not sure about their longevity.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> If I may - are they usable in Vali 2 with an adapter 7N7 > 6SN7 and then into converter 6SN7 > 6922?



You can adapter your way there, but one big problem: the Vali 2 uses a 6922 or equivalent natively which pulls 300 milliamps of heater current. The 7N7 which is electrically equivalent to a 6SN7 pulls 600 milliamps. I don't know if the Vali 2 can handle that. Pretty risky as far as I'm concerned -- you might end up frying the Vali.


But just for interest (if you are), this is where discussion of the 7N7 Frankentube began:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-3-tube-rolling-thread.876016/page-84#post-14447101


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 11, 2019)

FYI --  @Robert Padgett has not blown his Vali 2 while using a 6SN7 adapter, or even his dual 6J5 adapter, but it may be shortening its life -- tread carefully unless you find something more definitive.  Ditto on Lyr 2 which has a max 415ma current draw safety margin.


----------



## bcowen

Just buy a Lyr 3.  Problem solved. Plus look at the _huge_ savings you'll enjoy by only having to buy one adapter!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> You can adapter your way there, but one big problem: the Vali 2 uses a 6922 or equivalent natively which pulls 300 milliamps of heater current. The 7N7 which is electrically equivalent to a 6SN7 pulls 600 milliamps. I don't know if the Vali 2 can handle that. Pretty risky as far as I'm concerned -- you might end up frying the Vali.
> 
> 
> But just for interest (if you are), this is where discussion of the 7N7 Frankentube began:
> ...


Many thanks, perfect guidance - As long as I am allowed to go to that storage and look.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 12, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Just buy a Lyr 3.  Problem solved. Plus look at the _huge_ savings you'll enjoy by only having to buy one adapter!



Aaaargh. I would need another type of dual 6J5 adapter, plus a socket saver for 6SN7. 



			
				bcowen said:
			
		

> one big problem: the Vali 2 uses a 6922 or equivalent natively which pulls 300 milliamps of heater current. The 7N7 which is electrically equivalent to a 6SN7 pulls 600 milliamps. I don't know if the Vali 2 can handle that. Pretty risky as far as I'm concerned -- you might end up frying the Vali.



Vali 2 FAQ on the Schiit website: _"Pretty much any tube with a 6DJ8 pinout, 6V heater, a*nd 600mA or less of heater current *will work fine in Vali 2." _So, it should be fine with 6SN7...

So, do I REALLY need Lyr 3? I have been running multiple versions of 6SN7, including twin 6J5, on Vali 2 without a slightest issue. It does get warm, but not seriously hot. Some people write that Lyr 3 gots rather hot itself.

It is already complex with more than one set of HPs and so many tubes. Now I have added (not shipped yet) _aune T1, _which will add a whole new level of complexity with a tube DAC. And, I like that Vali 2 enough. Should I really fear of toasting it with 6SN7 tubes??? Maybe better get a spare one?


----------



## Paladin79

I have had no issues running the Vali with 6sn7's, in fact I pulled the tube that came with it, and have not used it since. All the Vali's life has been with 6sn7's or equivalents. I also have three Aune amps that use 6922's, all have 6sn7's as well and I have run one in excess of two years now with the other tube. The Bottlehead Crack comes with a 12AU7, similar heater current, 300 ma in parallel and I know plenty of folks who run 6sn7's, as do I. No problems in more than two years there as well. It is wise to be cautious by all means but so far I have not had a reason to fear using those tubes in place of those requiring lower filament current.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Aaaargh. I would need another type of dual 6J5 adapter, plus a socket saver for 6SN7.



There's no such thing as too many adapters.  Just check with @Paladin79 if any further questions.  



Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Vali 2 FAQ on the Schiit website: _"Pretty much any tube with a 6DJ8 pinout, 6V heater, a*nd 600mA or less of heater current *will work fine in Vali 2." _



Well there you have it straight from the guys that designed it.  Schiit is typically quite conservative with recommendations and/or advice on such things, so I'd say bring on the Frankies!  



Old Deaf Donkey said:


> So, do I REALLY need Lyr 3?



Yes.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> First genuine Frankentube I've seen on Ebay in a while. Price is on the high side, but not terrible.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/233223982150?ul_noapp=true



In one of my cheap buys, I got three short envelope 6SN7 tube for $10. One is a Sylvania, half-chromed with a noticeable flat top. 
@bcowen, is there a short tube Franken-6SN7?  
This tube has distinguished itself from other tubes with a very pronouced Bass Slam that, if were played in a car with large rims, would shake the windows of cars across the intersection. 
Whilst I understand the specific of the Franken-tube is a loctal, this tube was a gem in the lot.


----------



## Paladin79

I had a Lyr 2 and liked it but I can only keep so many headphone amps around. The Vali 2 is tiny and part of a desktop setup at home.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> In one of my cheap buys, I got three short envelope 6SN7 tube for $10. One is a Sylvania, half-chromed with a noticeable flat top.
> @bcowen, is there a short tube Franken-6SN7?
> This tube has distinguished itself from other tubes with a very pronouced Bass Slam that, if were played in a car with large rims, would shake the windows of cars across the intersection.
> Whilst I understand the specific of the Franken-tube is a loctal, this tube was a gem in the lot.



I have never seen a short bottle 6SN7 Frankie, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I *think* that flattened top shape is indicative of a particular period of manufacture, so it's quite possible that the internals are the same as a tall bottle Frankie.  Do you have a photo? One of the most distinguishing details of a true 7N7 Frankie (beyond the bottle shape) is the fully oval (racetrack) micas.  In the 7N7 the bottom one is normally quite easy to see, but the top one can be difficult (and maybe impossible if the getter flashing goes way down low) but can usually be seen with a flashlight.  Does yours have micas like that?


----------



## HellooooThar

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Aaaargh. I would need another type of dual 6J5 adapter, plus a socket saver for 6SN7.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Being honest, in my impression of Lyr (I have a Lyr 2) I found it weightier and warmer sounding than the Vali, perhaps a tad sweeter really. It also has way more driving current  w/ a lower output impedance, but it is a lot bigger, heavier and and does run HOT.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> I have never seen a short bottle 6SN7 Frankie, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I *think* that flattened top shape is indicative of a particular period of manufacture, so it's quite possible that the internals are the same as a tall bottle Frankie.  Do you have a photo? One of the most distinguishing details of a true 7N7 Frankie (beyond the bottle shape) is the fully oval (racetrack) micas.  In the 7N7 the bottom one is normally quite easy to see, but the top one can be difficult (and maybe impossible if the getter flashing goes way down low) but can usually be seen with a flashlight.  Does yours have micas like that?




Rectangular micas with rounded ends, both top and bottom.
  While it may not be a True Frankie, is has enough Bass Slam, that it was well worth $3.33...on a Vali 2.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> Rectangular micas with rounded ends, both top and bottom.  While it may not be a True Frankie, is has enough Bass Slam, that it was well worth $3.33...on a Vali 2.



Any tube with awesome bass slam is worth well more than $3.33 in my book.


----------



## Ripper2860

Looks like a Chrome Dome to me.  Nice snag at that price.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I have had decent success with NOS and if I plug them into the Vali I rarely test them first but I would not do that with other amps I own.





bcowen said:


> Still I have a paranoia about sticking any tube in my amp that hasn't at least been tested for shorts and leakage.



Just lost an auction on a tube tester by $4. Just bid on another one at price of Vali 2, and will not increase.

I keep wondering as I plan to get more NOS NIB tubes from the same dealer - do I really need a tube tester? Can a tube damage my amp without first giving me any signs that it is bad, and time enough to switch of a simple amp such as Vali 2?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I keep wondering as I plan to get more NOS NIB tubes from the same dealer - do I really need a tube tester? Can a tube damage my amp without first giving me any signs that it is bad, and time enough to switch of a simple amp such as Vali 2?



Very good question. It depends on whether the Vali (or whatever amp being used) has built-in protection circuitry in the event of a tube fault like a dead short. If not, it's highly probable damage to the amp will occur.  Maybe just a blown fuse or resistor that are easily replaced. Maybe worse. Probably depends as well on which elements of the tube are shorted.  I don't know if the Vali (or Lyr 3 for that matter) have any protection mechanisms in place.  Fortunately I haven't ever had to find out....'cause I have a tube tester.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> 'cause I have a tube tester.



Me, too. Just won an auction for a working tester. Less than price of Vali 2. Paranoia wins!


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Me, too. Just won an auction for a working tester. Less than price of Vali 2. Paranoia wins!


That is great news with your connections for rare tubes, having a tester has got to feel good.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Me, too. Just won an auction for a working tester. Less than price of Vali 2. Paranoia wins!



Cool beans!  So what'd you get?  Details, man, we need details!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Robert Padgett said:


> That is great news with your connections for rare tubes, having a tester has got to feel good.


Thank you. The tester is a bit remote yet. Hope my daughter will carry it from DC to Europe sometime...


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thank you. The tester is a bit remote yet. Hope my daughter will carry it from DC to Europe sometime...



That's a long way to carry it.  Hope the handle is in good shape.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Cool beans!  So what'd you get?  Details, man, we need details!


Superior Instruments Trans-Conductance Tube Tester TV-12 for Tubes and Transistors. Wizards say virtually the same as Stark 9-99.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Superior Instruments Trans-Conductance Tube Tester TV-12 for Tubes and Transistors. Wizards say virtually the same as Stark 9-99.



Sweet!  Looks like that will do the job nicely. And for a price less than a Vali? Looks like you did quite well.


----------



## Mr Trev

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Me, too. Just won an auction for a working tester. Less than price of Vali 2. Paranoia wins!



"Paranoia wins"
Sounds like the motto for the end of days


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Mr Trev said:


> "Paranoia wins"
> Sounds like the motto for the end of days



I caught the paranoia from @bcowen  ...and, of course, what is a tube roller without a tube tester?


----------



## Paladin79

I should point out that I get a lot of tubes from friends who have already tested them as well as dealers who provide the specs before I ever see the tubes so I am pretty trusting on what I receive. 
Now when I bought a ten pound box of loktals, or other untested tubes I go through those pretty thoroughly before putting them in an amp. I test Russian tubes purporting to be new old stock figuring, even if new they have not been tested.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I should point out that I get a lot of tubes from friends who have already tested them as well as dealers who provide the specs before I ever see the tubes so I am pretty trusting on what I receive.
> Now when I bought a ten pound box of loktals, or other untested tubes I go through those pretty thoroughly before putting them in an amp. I test Russian tubes purporting to be new old stock figuring, even if new they have not been tested.


Can you test Russian tubes on USA tester??? What a disappointment. I thought one needed Rusian tester for that, already found a L1-3 for $620+ shipping NIB in Russia, thought of buying 2 and peddling one to you guys in the USA for $1200


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I caught the paranoia from @bcowen  ...and, of course, what is a tube roller without a tube tester?



I was elected to Director of Paranoia Generation somehow, and I didn't even apply for the job.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Can you test Russian tubes on USA tester???



Sure you can.  You just can't use Russian tubes in USA amps.  I've heard that some people do that anyway, but they best keep looking over their shoulder for any sign of the Tube Police.  Something to be constantly paranoid about, for sure.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Can you test Russian tubes on USA tester??? What a disappointment. I thought one needed Rusian tester for that, already found a L1-3 for $620+ shipping NIB in Russia, thought of buying 2 and peddling one to you guys in the USA for $1200



I just pretend they are American tubes and hope for the best. Now when I get tubes from @bcowen  I know they have been through his testing rituals and have had any demons exorcised. I believe his testing involves a soon to be dead rooster and an offering of rum.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Still I have a paranoia about sticking any tube in my amp that hasn't at least been tested for shorts and leakage.



Don't know anything about who elected who and what. But can trace where I have caught the paranoia from. See carrier above!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I just pretend they are American tubes and hope for the best. Now when I get tubes from @bcowen  I know they have been through his testing rituals and have had any demons exorcised. I believe his testing involves a soon to be dead rooster and an offering of rum.



LOL!  The rooster and rum only get involved after a minimum of 100 hours of break-in. Then there's still the 200 hours of cryogenic freezing, the 200 hours of de-magnetization, the 200 hours of irradiation, and the 24 hour cure time on the silver/gold particle special microscopic pore filler applied to the tube pins. Only then will a tube be considered ready to listen to.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 13, 2019)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  The rooster and rum only get involved after a minimum of 100 hours of break-in. Then there's still the 200 hours of cryogenic freezing, the 200 hours of de-magnetization, the 200 hours of irradiation, and the 24 hour cure time on the silver/gold particle special microscopic pore filler applied to the tube pins. Only then will a tube be considered ready to listen to.


I heard in Soviet Russia they sacrificed komsomolka virgins on the MELZ production line (made by Radio Corporation of America) when producing those 1578 - you know those with the holes


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> I was elected to Director of Paranoia Generation somehow, and I didn't even apply for the job.




Welcome, Comrade, come in from the bitter cold of a bright day here in Siberia. 

Commissar at Directorate of AgitProp


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I should point out that I get a lot of tubes from friends who have already tested them as well as dealers who provide the specs before I ever see the tubes so I am pretty trusting on what I receive.
> Now when I bought a ten pound box of loktals, or other untested tubes I go through those pretty thoroughly before putting them in an amp. I test Russian tubes purporting to be new old stock figuring, even if new they have not been tested.



Now that's commitment, buying tubes by the pound. Although, get with the times… Kg. FTW!!


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I heard in Soviet Russia they sacrificed komsomolka virgins on the MELZ production line (made by Radio Corporation of America) when producing those 1578 - you know those with the holes



Yeah, sure. Like there are any virgins in Komsomolka....


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 13, 2019)

Dear fellow tube rollers on Vali 2, I think this thread has become too technical. No, I am not suggesting to discuss matching tubes and music, as to each his own, too personal and potentially incendiary. Instead, I suggest to discuss matching tube and wine. I have received my wine stock replenishment on Saturday, mostly Italian wines this time. Rosso di Montefalco matches my twin 6C5C in character just perfectly: mellow, clear, resolved, but a tad relaxed.




However, the idea poses a methodological challenge in case of twin triodes: two tubes, one bottle, one glass. Should I use two glasses or two bottles? Or, should I stick to double triods, which, after all, come in one bottle?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Yeah, sure. Like there are any virgins in Komsomolka....


Must have been, until you all created such a demand for 1578! After all, virginity can be lost only once.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Yeah, sure. Like there are any virgins in Komsomolka....



Komsomolka (Kazakhstan)... Isn't that where Borat was from? 

*"Republic of Kazakhstan* (Kazakh: Қазақстан Республикасы, romanized: _Qazaqstan Respýblıkasy_; Russian: Республика Казахстан, tr. _Respublika Kazakhstan_),is the world's largest landlocked country, and the ninth largest in the world, with an area of 2,724,900 square kilometres (1,052,100 sq mi). It is a transcontinental country largely located in Asia; the most western parts are in Europe. Kazakhstan is the dominant nation of Central Asia economically, generating 60% of the region's GDP, primarily through its oil and gas industry. It also has vast mineral resources." --Wikipedia


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Dear fellow tube rollers on Vali 2, I think this thread has become too technical. No, I am not suggesting to discuss matching tubes and music, as to each his own, too personal and potentially incendiary. Instead, I suggest to discuss matching tube and wine. I have received my wine stock replenishment on Saturday, mostly Italian wines this time. Rosso di Montefalco matches my twin 6C5C in character just perfectly: mellow, clear, resolved, but a tad relaxed.
> 
> 
> 
> However, the idea poses a methodological challenge in case of twin triodes: two tubes, one bottle, one glass. Should I use two glasses or two bottles? Or, should I stick to double triods, which, after all, come in one bottle?



Clearly a First World Dilemma. Not to be confused with the question everyone has always asked, "What wines pairs well with Salmon?"  The Answer, "Sockeye from the Russian River, or Wal-mart?" of course Rose...


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Robert Padgett said:


> Clearly a First World Dilemma



It is just a coincidence, that I opened a wine from Montefalco (which happens to be north of Rome, hence the First World location). Saratov, where 6C5C had been made was the Second World then. Should I have picked a bottle of Salice Salentino (also excellent), that would have been a Third World Problem, without much argument. Sadly, you have not suggest a solution to the methodological dilemma of one bottle - two bottles.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> It is just a coincidence, that I opened a wine from Montefalco (which happens to be north of Rome, hence the First World location). Saratov, where 6C5C had been made was the Second World then. Should I have picked a bottle of Salice Salentino (also excellent), that would have been a Third World Problem, without much argument. Sadly, you have not suggest a solution to the methodological dilemma of one bottle - two bottles.



Bottles?  I thought all wine came in boxes...with a pour spout.  Well, the expensive ones have a pour spout.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Bottles?  I thought all wine came in boxes...with a pour spout.  Well, the expensive ones have a pour spout.


I wonder if they still do electrical lobotomies? I had the same thought as Bill but without mentioning the pour spout, something is very wrong here, time to seek a solution.

I am no help with wines from Italy sorry, unless they are from Tuscany.

Now Belgium has Gulden Draak beer, I am more familiar with that.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> I wonder if they still do electrical lobotomies? I had the same thought as Bill but without mentioning the pour spout, something is very wrong here, time to seek a solution.



Personally, I would prefer a full bottle in front of me instead of a pre-frontal labotomy...+1 for box-o-wine on sale at Kroger for $4.99 for 5 liters


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> +1 for box-o-wine on sale at Kroger for $4.99 for 5 liters



Dang man, you go for the good stuff.  I settle for the $3.99 box...but only when it's on the buy one, get one free special.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Oh, Posted in a wrong thread

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/official-schiit-vali-2-thread.790828/page-171#post-14953984


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Oh, Posted in a wrong thread
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/official-schiit-vali-2-thread.790828/page-171#post-14953984



Those tubes have some of the biggest nipples I've ever seen.  You haven't been tube shopping in Amsterdam again have you?


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 14, 2019)

Maybe he has the air conditioner turned down.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Those tubes have some of the biggest nipples I've ever seen.  You haven't been tube shopping in Amsterdam again have you?


No. I shopped in Canada for those tubes. I wanted to try twin setup for noval single triode tubes. Hence welcome to 2 x Siemens EC8010. Extra robust and resistant military tubes, 1968, for airborne applications @Robert Padgett


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> No. I shopped in Canada for those tubes. I wanted to try twin setup for noval single triode tubes. Hence welcome to 2 x Siemens EC8010. Extra robust and resistant military tubes, 1968, for airborne applications @Robert Padgett



"Rangers lead the Way"

But how did they sound?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 15, 2019)

Robert Padgett said:


> "Rangers lead the Way"
> 
> But how did they sound?


I am still trying. Extremely wide, deep and precise soundstage. Very transparent and good resolution. Fast. Tight bass. However, bright. So bright, that could not enjoy on K702 - switched to HE400i. That helped reduce brightness without harming transparency and precision. Still, something is missing a little. Very little, but I do not enjoy them at the same degree as my other good tubes. Not quite captured that yet. Maybe "Vorsprung durch technik", you know, a bit too much German precision? I have hopes to try it in the aune T1 DAC, trying to pair with warmer tubes in Vali 2.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I am still trying. Extremely wide, deep and precise soundstage. Very transparent and good resolution. Fast. Tight bass. However, bright. So bright, that could not enjoy on K702 - switched to HE400i. That helped reduce brightness without harming transparency and precision. Still, something is missing a little. Very little, but I do not enjoy them at the same degree as my other good tubes. Not quite captured that yet. Maybe "Vorsprung durch technik", you know, a bit too much German precision? I have hopes to try it in the aune T1 DAC, trying to pair with warmer tubes in Vali 2.


Since the Aune is a tube type dac, I have used it in conjunction with the Vali to achieve a sound signature to my liking. You gain a bit of versatility using both.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Since the Aune is a tube type dac, I have used it in conjunction with the Vali to achieve a sound signature to my liking. You gain a bit of versatility using both.


Have you achieved some good combinations?


----------



## Paladin79 (May 15, 2019)

Absolutely, some rivaled much more expensive amp/dacs.

I do a lot of DIY and amp modifications and what I like might vary greatly from what others enjoy.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 17, 2019)

Some time ago, I was writing here about the place where I had bought all those 7A4, and that I was going to goand buy some 7N7. A Belgian company, found just after WWII is offloading last remaining tubes, some in great quantities, some - just leftovers. So, I went today. Quite many tubes, so I just collected 13 6SN7 with different constructions, and several 6C8G (about them later).

At last, I have a 6DJ8 tube that sounds wonderful decent in Vali 2 to my ears: labelled Amperex 6DJ8, made in England. hereby the pic: (EDIT: I found Amperex 6DJ8 tubes of similar construction, "A" frame halo getter but all made in Holland) (EDIT2: solved - 6DJ8 made by Mullard in Blackburn and branded as Amperex; even found some RCA branded)




Any ideas, what's that, and the value?

Then, I need help with some tubes:

1. Brown base tube, no marks, supposedly 6SN7GT (EDIT: looks a lot like Raytheon 6SN7WGT )


Then, a Haltrone 6SN7GTA labelled tube (EDIT: looks like Sylvania 6SN7WGTA)

 


A no brand tube labelled 6SNGT, ribbed plates with semicircular protrusions: (EDIT: Gotcha, too! Brimar/Mullard)



And, finally, a Tronal 6SN7GT branded tube: EDIT: (This one a tough person - almost certainly a Sylvania 6SN7GT, Icannot found exactly the same: the top and the plates are matching, but the ones with support posts have a round mica, whilst the ones with racetrack mica have no posts. Go figure...) EDIT 2: here we go Sylvania 6SN7WGT EDIT 3: Sylvania 6SN7W - thanks to @Ripper2860 



Would be very, very grateful for recognising what these tubes really are. EDIT: found them all!!!


----------



## Paladin79 (May 16, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Some time ago, I was writing here about the place where I had bought all those 7A4, and that I was going to goand buy some 7N7. A Belgian company, found just after WWII is offloading last remaining tubes, some in great quantities, some - just leftovers. So, I went today. Quite many tubes, so I just collected 13 6SN7 with different constructions, and several 6C8G (about them later).
> 
> At last, I have a 6DJ8 tube that sounds wonderful in Vali 2 to my ears: labelled Amperex 6DJ8, made in England. hereby the pic:
> 
> ...


I wish foreign tubes were covered in my books but sadly they are not. Tomorrow I might check around some and see how they compare to some I own.

http://www.audiobanter.com/showthread.php?t=76851

Here is some info on Haltron, unfortunately it is not exactly praising them but more research might find an end user who loves them.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I wish foreign tubes were covered in my books but sadly they are not. Tomorrow I might check around some and see how they compare to some I own.
> 
> http://www.audiobanter.com/showthread.php?t=76851
> 
> Here is some info on Haltron, unfortunately it is not exactly praising them but more research might find an end user who loves them.



Many thanks. I am trying to go by construction inside the tube, not by the print on the base or the glass - unless it is obvious. AFAIK, angled T-plates were used in 6SN7 only by Sylvania and Tung-Sol. Not that foreign to you 

Same with the other tubes. I have bought several interesting Sylvanias and RCAs today, but more later.


----------



## Paladin79

Some of the mica shapes certainly remind me of Tung Sol. 

You are fortunate to have such sources.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 16, 2019)

... and finally, a USSR tube that may beat MELZ 6H8C in Vali 2: Original NOS NIB Sovtek Made in USSR (not modern Made in Russia - I have that, too, good, but not even close) branded 6SN7GT:



Just started listening to it, will compare directly tomorrow.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Some time ago, I was writing here about the place where I had bought all those 7A4, and that I was going to goand buy some 7N7. A Belgian company, found just after WWII is offloading last remaining tubes, some in great quantities, some - just leftovers. So, I went today. Quite many tubes, so I just collected 13 6SN7 with different constructions, and several 6C8G (about them later).
> 
> At last, I have a 6DJ8 tube that sounds wonderful decent in Vali 2 to my ears: labelled Amperex 6DJ8, made in England. hereby the pic: (EDIT: I found Amperex 6DJ8 tubes of similar construction, "A" frame halo getter but all made in Holland) (EDIT2: solved - 6DJ8 made by Mullard in Blackburn and branded as Amperex; even found some RCA branded)



That would be formally referred to as a windmill getter by those that are anal about such things.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> ... and finally, a USSR tube that may beat MELZ 6H8C in Vali 2: Original NOS NIB Sovtek Made in USSR (not modern Made in Russia - I have that, too, good, but not even close) branded 6SN7GT:
> 
> 
> 
> Just started listening to it, will compare directly tomorrow.



A Sovtek that sounds good will be unusual. Not suggesting it can't be good, just that most tubes branded as Sovtek were mid-90's or later production and are, well, nothing special (to be kind). Any clues to indicate what year that was made?


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> ... and finally, a USSR tube that may beat MELZ 6H8C in Vali 2: Original NOS NIB Sovtek Made in USSR (not modern Made in Russia - I have that, too, good, but not even close) branded 6SN7GT:
> 
> 
> 
> Just started listening to it, will compare directly tomorrow.


You're pulling in all kinds of strange & unusual glass. Keep those images coming, eh.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

ScubaMan2017 said:


> You're pulling in all kinds of strange & unusual glass. Keep those images coming, eh.


Thank you for your interest. By the way, got this as a present from the shop where I found all these nice tubes (more coming later). Unfortunately, no adapter - but there are amps using this triode as drivers. A really large one, this beautiful NOS NIB!


----------



## Paladin79

impressive!  You are finding some unusual tubes no doubt.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thank you for your interest. By the way, got this as a present from the shop where I found all these nice tubes (more coming later). Unfortunately, no adapter - but there are amps using this triode as drivers. A really large one, this beautiful NOS NIB!



Drivers?  Holy cow.  For what?  A 10 kW transmitting tube?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Drivers?  Holy cow.  For what?  A 10 kW transmitting tube?


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 17, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> And, finally, a Tronal 6SN7GT branded tube: EDIT: (This one a tough person - almost certainly a Sylvania 6SN7GT, Icannot found exactly the same: the top and the plates are matching, but the ones with support posts have a round mica, whilst the ones with racetrack mica have no posts. Go figure...) EDIT 2: here we go Sylvania 6SN7WGT



If that is a steel support rod between the plates (hard to tell from pic) and it has an umbrella top mica (round with small rods downward like an umbrella), then this is a black base short bottle 6SN7W (not WGT).  The W's are pretty highly regarded and typically not inexpensive.  I own a few and they are quite nice in Lyr 3.  Any date code etching on the top of the glass?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

OK. @bcowen. You dont like that triode. What about this one, 100TH? Same story.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> OK. @bcowen. You dont like that triode. What about this one, 100TH? Same story.



I've never found a triode I _didn't_ like.  Well, except ones made by GE.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


>



Pretty cool looking amps!  With the obvious attention to detail on the exterior, I'm gonna bet they sound pretty good too...and probably way out of my league price-wise.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 17, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> If that is a steel support rod between the plates (hard to tell from pic) and it has an umbrella top mica (round with small rods downward like an umbrella), then this is a black base short bottle 6SN7W (not WGT).  The W's are pretty highly regarded and typically not inexpensive.  I own a few and they are quite nice in Lyr 3.  Any date code etching on the top of the glass?


Many thanks for this important correction: The top mica is as you desribe, and yes that is a support rod (there are 4 posts).




Even more - I have checked the top of the bottle and indeed with manipulating light I could discern an octagon with 6SN7 and under it a W. Under the octagon, there is "E 5" - May 1945?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 17, 2019)

Other 6SN7 from that batch:

CBS 6SN7 GTB


CBS HYTRON 6SN7 GT


KEN-RAD JAN-CKR 6SN7 GT


RCA 6SN7 GTB


ROGERS CANADA branded 6SN7 GT (probably another Sylvania - any ideas?)


SYLVANIA 6SN7 GT, marked LOH 126


SYLVANIA 6SN7 GTB, marked AOL - note the button base!


Sylvania VT231JAN CHS 6SN7 GT, marked SC966 A
 

UNITED ELECTRON branded 6SN7GT MOUSE EARS - probably a Tung Sol?
 

Comments welcome!


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Other 6SN7 from that batch:
> 
> CBS 6SN7 GTB



Top one:  does that have 6 support rods in total? If so, combined with the triple micas it's constructed identically to a 5692.  Very desirable tube.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 17, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Pretty cool looking amps!  With the obvious attention to detail on the exterior, I'm gonna bet they sound pretty good too...and probably way out of my league price-wise.



Donkey (twitching): yeah. The first one is WAVAC Audio Lab special 10th anniversary model SH-833 - $350,000/pair. Does not have to be THAT expensive - The last one Emiral SE-833 MX Challenge outputs 60 watts at Pure class A and weighs 45 kg's.  Priced at €30.000 per pair ONLY.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Top one:  does that have 6 support rods in total? If so, combined with the triple micas it's constructed identically to a 5692.  Very desirable tube.



Thank you. Yes, 6 rods (posts):1 front, 1back, 2 each side (or other way round).


----------



## Delirious Lab (May 17, 2019)

Damn but Vali + 6SN7 is an awesome combo.  I have HD600's and have stopped yearning for LCD3's for the first time since I heard them at a meet a few years ago.  All this for $30 (Tung-Sol from Schiit) and an adapter.

My wallet is happy!  And so are my ears.  I never thought my HD600s were capable of such authoritative bass.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 17, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Many thanks for this important correction: The top mica is as you desribe, and yes that is a support rod (there are 4 posts).
> 
> 
> 
> Even more - I have checked the top of the bottle and indeed with manipulating light I could discern an octagon with 6SN7 and under it a W. Under the octagon, there is "E 5" - May 1945?



Very nice!  Yep - all mine have 5 which designates 1945.  The letter code is the plant of MFG, I think.  There's a lot of uncertainty and debate about that however.


----------



## triggsviola

Delirious Lab said:


> Damn but Vali + 6SN7 is an awesome combo.  I have HD600's and have stopped yearning for LCD3's for the first time since I heard them at a meet a few years ago.  All this for $30 (Tung-Sol from Schiit) and an adapter.
> 
> My wallet is happy!  And so are my ears.  I never thought the HD600 was capable of such authoritative bass.



I have two setups: my bedside setup is iPhone -> eitr-> Mimby-> vali 2 (with Sylvania 6SN7gt) -> Elex.

My office desktop setup is PC -> Yggy -> Euforia -> Utopia.

The bedside setup is pretty damn close in terms of sound quality to the desktop. If I had to put a number on it, I would say it gets 85% of the way there. The Vali + 6SN7 is a very compelling offering, especially if you find a particularly good tube!


----------



## bochawa

I have the Tung-Sol 6SN7 and 6922 adapter from Tube Depot - just waiting for socket savers to arrive.  I'm tempted to remove the cover from the Vali 2 tonight, so I can plug the adapter straight into the board - it should fit, right?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Donkey (twitching): yeah. The first one is WAVAC Audio Lab special 10th anniversary model SH-833 - $350,000/pair. Does not have to be THAT expensive - The last one Emiral SE-833 MX Challenge outputs 60 watts at Pure class A and weighs 45 kg's.  Priced at €30.000 per pair ONLY.



Ahhhh…a good ol' Wavac.  Reviewed one of theirs (MD-300B) many moons ago.  Not quite in the $350k league, but a notably good sounding amp for the money.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/revequip/wavac_md300b.htm


----------



## bcowen

bochawa said:


> I have the Tung-Sol 6SN7 and 6922 adapter from Tube Depot - just waiting for socket savers to arrive.  I'm tempted to remove the cover from the Vali 2 tonight, so I can plug the adapter straight into the board - it should fit, right?



Never took the cover off my Vali 2.  Now that I think about it, that's very strange for me.  

It should fit, just be sure that if the adapter has a metal base that the bottom of it isn't touching any of parts on the board (and end up shorting something out). The socket will probably lift it up high enough, but still take a close look before powering it up.


----------



## attmci (May 17, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Other 6SN7 from that batch:
> 
> CBS 6SN7 GTB
> 
> ...


The KEN-RAD JAN-CKR 6SN7 GT is a GE rebranded. I could be wrong.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> The KEN-RAD JAN-CKR 6SN7 GT is a GE rebranded. I could be wrong.



You mean it was made by GE and then branded as a Ken-Rad? Oh the sheer _horror_!!!  I'm probably not going to sleep well tonight with nightmares of GE innards stuck inside something in the stash. I should probably dump the whole stash right now just to exorcise any possibility of a lurking demon.....


----------



## bochawa

bcowen said:


> Never took the cover off my Vali 2.  Now that I think about it, that's very strange for me.
> 
> It should fit, just be sure that if the adapter has a metal base that the bottom of it isn't touching any of parts on the board (and end up shorting something out). The socket will probably lift it up high enough, but still take a close look before powering it up.


Looks like it will fit just fine without touching anything on the board.


----------



## bcowen

bochawa said:


> Looks like it will fit just fine without touching anything on the board.



Looks good to me. Let us know how it sounds.


----------



## Mr Trev

bochawa said:


> Looks like it will fit just fine without touching anything on the board.



Yup, plenty of clearance with the top removed. Now if only you had one of those low-profile G1217 6sn7 adapters you could bore out the tube opening on the cover and it'd look like the 6sn7 was meant to be there. I thought of doing this myself many times, but I want to keep the stock cover intact - just in case


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> You mean it was made by GE and then branded as a Ken-Rad? Oh the sheer _horror_!!!  I'm probably not going to sleep well tonight with nightmares of GE innards stuck inside something in the stash. I should probably dump the whole stash right now just to exorcise any possibility of a lurking demon.....



GE purchased KR. Look at the top of the tube. This is KR (for both smoke glass and clear glass).


----------



## attmci (May 17, 2019)

All are GEs. The first one has 188 code.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-NOS-NI...284029&hash=item287c2e2ac9:g:GI4AAOSwym1crlss

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-RCA-6SN...563226?hash=item4b646f4dda:g:VLgAAOSwmBhaCIKY

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-6SN7gt...008114?hash=item56c37e1772:g:jdQAAOSw1Sdbq5kG

These are clear glass KR. Sounds similar/same to that of the black glass ones.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/KEN-RAD-JA...961173?hash=item4200d772d5:g:~XEAAOSwN3Bczl4n


----------



## rgmffn

Mr Trev said:


> Yup, plenty of clearance with the top removed. Now if only you had one of those low-profile G1217 6sn7 adapters you could bore out the tube opening on the cover and it'd look like the 6sn7 was meant to be there. I thought of doing this myself many times, but I want to keep the stock cover intact - just in case


I'm wondering if that G1217 adapter will even work. I have not tried it on my Vali 2, but I did try a 'standard' Chinese 6sn7 to ECC88 (the one I use on my Vali 2) on my Ember ll and It would not work. It was awhile ago and, I think, the heaters didn't fire up. But I'm not sure. 
I checked continuity on the pins, and there's a slight difference in the wiring between the two.
On the 'standard' adapter, nothing is connected on the novel side to pin 9.
On the G1217 adapter, nothing is connected to pin 5 on the novel side.
That's the only difference I found. Be aware that I'm not real knowledgeable on tube stuff, but I really enjoy rolling and sampling their differences.


----------



## Mr Trev (May 18, 2019)

rgmffn said:


> I'm wondering if that G1217 adapter will even work. I have not tried it on my Vali 2, but I did try a 'standard' Chinese 6sn7 to ECC88 (the one I use on my Vali 2) on my Ember ll and It would not work. It was awhile ago and, I think, the heaters didn't fire up. But I'm not sure.
> I checked continuity on the pins, and there's a slight difference in the wiring between the two.
> On the 'standard' adapter, nothing is connected on the novel side to pin 9.
> On the G1217 adapter, nothing is connected to pin 5 on the novel side.
> That's the only difference I found. Be aware that I'm not real knowledgeable on tube stuff, but I really enjoy rolling and sampling their differences.



Yeah, I'm not actually sure if those G1217s are made to be used with their amps running at the 12 or 6 setting - but judging from what you just mentioned, I'd say 12. For the record my 6sn7 adapter is actually a 12au7 to 6sn7. For kicks I did try plugging it directly into the Vali2 (with the top removed) and I believe I got the same result as you… no heater.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 18, 2019)

attmci said:


> The KEN-RAD JAN-CKR 6SN7 GT is a GE rebranded. I could be wrong.



Thank you for your observation. And, for disclaimer that you could be wrong - this is a somewhat rare admission, which indicates an expert. Yet perhaps your are right. The EIA code 188-5 on it belongs to GE, even if the factory it designates in Owensboro, Kentucky - the old Ken-Rad factory (not without fail, though - people say it has been used also on tubes imported from Canada or made by other companies, such as RCA - I do not know if it holds water). The date code is 1-22, and that is perhaps 1951, 22nd week. There is also a square on the base containing small letter "S" in top left corner, a "C" in top right corner, a large "A" in the middle, with small digits "280" at the bottom of the square, between the legs of the A. I do not know what the hell is this but I have seen it on other tubes and I would highly appreciate if anyone would enlighten me what is that?

The top mica is round, and the plates are not staggered. The bottom getter is rectangular, and the wires are copper.

Sure, I would love thinking this is one of the first VT-231 made by Ken-Rad in 19*4*1, but it would not have the EIA code, would it? 

Now, whether this a GE tube "rebranded" Ken-Rad is a good question. GE bought the factory and the brand, the tube is made in the same factory, so no doubt usig Ken-Rad brand is fully appropriate. One could designate the tubes made by Ken-Rad before it was purchased by GE a "pre-GE Ken-Rad".


----------



## attmci

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thank you for your observation. And, for disclaimer that you could be wrong - this is a somewhat rare admission, which indicates an expert. Yet perhaps your are right. The EIA code 188-5 on it belongs to GE, even if the factory it designates in Owensboro, Kentucky - the old Ken-Rad factory (not without fail, though - people say it has been used also on tubes imported from Canada or made by other companies, such as RCA - I do not know if it holds water). The date code is 1-22, and that is perhaps 1951, 22nd week. There is also a square on the base containing small letter "S" in top left corner, a "C" in top right corner, a large "A" in the middle, with small digits "280" at the bottom of the square, between the legs of the A. I do not know what the hell is this but I have seen it on other tubes and I would highly appreciate if anyone would enlighten me what is that?
> 
> The top mica is round, and the plates are not staggered. The bottom getter is rectangular, and the wires are copper.
> 
> ...



I agree with this statement copied from the 6sn7gt reference thread:

'● “With reference to the KenRad, the first version can have either black glass or clear glass, always with staggered plates (I was the one who coined the 'staggered plates' moniker - there is zero sonic difference between the two). In the late 40's, when GE had taken more control over the KenRad operation, there was a second version with clear glass and in-line ribbed plates - it is NOTEABLY inferior sonically - gone is the big bass and the midrange bloom, added is a dry, slightly constricted sound with no magic.” -Robert H. (in personal correspondence)


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

attmci said:


> I agree with this statement copied from the 6sn7gt reference thread:
> 
> '● “With reference to the KenRad, the first version can have either black glass or clear glass, always with staggered plates (I was the one who coined the 'staggered plates' moniker - there is zero sonic difference between the two). In the late 40's, when GE had taken more control over the KenRad operation, there was a.  second version with clear glass and in-line ribbed plates - it is NOTEABLY inferior sonically - gone is the big bass and the midrange bloom, added is a dry, slightly constricted sound with no magic.” -Robert H. (in personal correspondence)


Alas, I cannot agree with this statement: The GE/Ken-Rad tube I have has not yet been tested, I do not (yet) have an older, pre-GE Ken-Rad with staggered plates to compare the sound, and the word "notably" is misspelled. @attmci , you have almost convinced me that this tube is obnoxious crap, in any case, you have done a good job towards it  Thank you, anyway - it is good to know the facts and also the opinions. Do you have an idea what is that sAc marking, please?


----------



## Ripper2860

Mr Trev said:


> Yeah, I'm not actually sure if those G1217s are made to be used with their amps running at the 12 or 6 setting - but judging from what you just mentioned, I'd say 12. For the record my 6sn7 adapter is actually a 12au7 to 6sn7. For kicks I did try plugging it directly into the Vali2 (with the top removed) and I believe I got the same result as you… no heater.



12AU7 and 6922 are not the same. The Vali is a 6922-based amp socket.  BHC and others are 12AU7 based amps and could use the G1217 adapter for 6SN7, but 6922 based amps need a completely different pin-out, despite sharing the 9pin form factor.


----------



## attmci (May 18, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Alas, I cannot agree with this statement: The GE/Ken-Rad tube I have has not yet been tested, I do not (yet) have an older, pre-GE Ken-Rad with staggered plates to compare the sound, and the word "notably" is misspelled. @attmci , you have almost convinced me that this tube is obnoxious crap, in any case, you have done a good job towards it  Thank you, anyway - it is good to know the facts and also the opinions. Do you have an idea what is that sAc marking, please?


I don't know about the sAc. Never paid attention.

You should find some fine tubes made in UK (you locates in EU). Those are my favorites .


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thank you for your observation. And, for disclaimer that you could be wrong - this is a somewhat rare admission, which indicates an expert. Yet perhaps your are right. The EIA code 188-5 on it belongs to GE, even if the factory it designates in Owensboro, Kentucky - the old Ken-Rad factory (not without fail, though - people say it has been used also on tubes imported from Canada or made by other companies, such as RCA - I do not know if it holds water). The date code is 1-22, and that is perhaps 1951, 22nd week. There is also a square on the base containing small letter "S" in top left corner, a "C" in top right corner, a large "A" in the middle, with small digits "280" at the bottom of the square, between the legs of the A. I do not know what the hell is this but I have seen it on other tubes and I would highly appreciate if anyone would enlighten me what is that?
> 
> The top mica is round, and the plates are not staggered. The bottom getter is rectangular, and the wires are copper.
> 
> ...



There is inconsistency (at best) with the EIA codes at least on US-made tubes. Some have the EIA code of whoever the real manufacturer was regardless of the brand markings elsewhere, while some have the brand-name's EIA code even when the tube was made by someone else.  This is especially prevalent with 7N7's that were only made by Sylvania and National Union, yet have the EIA codes of GE, CBS, and Tung-Sol (among others) printed on the bottle.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 18, 2019)

bcowen said:


> A Sovtek that sounds good will be unusual. Not suggesting it can't be good, just that most tubes branded as Sovtek were mid-90's or later production and are, well, nothing special (to be kind). Any clues to indicate what year that was made?


Well, it says "Made in USSR", so before 1991. My guess is very late970ties 80ties or very early 1990. Mike Matthews business, he started the tubes business in 1988. Made by Reflector, Saratov. Now as to the sound. I also have a Sovtek 6SN7 "Made in Russia", which sounds OK but not special. The USSR one is better. Perhaps slightly better materials and tighter quality control. Rather transparent and precise, fast, good timbral balance, wide and deep soundstage. Not a match for MELZ, that was a joke. But above average.


----------



## Mr Trev

Ripper2860 said:


> 12AU7 and 6922 are not the same. The Vali is a 6922-based amp socket.  BHC and others are 12AU7 based amps and could use the G1217 adapter for 6SN7, but 6922 based amps need a completely different pin-out, despite sharing the 9pin form factor.



I totally get that. I'm just one of those idiots that just can't leave well enough alone and had a faint hope that even though my octal adapter was 12au7 based, maybe it had some funky Oriental mojo going on that would make it work anyhow.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I totally get that. I'm just one of those idiots that just can't leave well enough alone and had a faint hope that even though my octal adapter was 12au7 based, maybe it had some funky Oriental mojo going on that would make it work anyhow.



The oriental mojo is an option. There's a little box you have to tick at the bottom of the listing page if you want it.  It's kind of expensive, but is normally offered with free shipping.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 18, 2019)

Mr Trev said:


> I'm just one of those idiots that just can't leave well enough alone and had a faint hope



Well, far be it from me to crush ones hopes.  That's what wives are for!!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

attmci said:


> You should find some fine tubes made in UK (you locates in EU). Those are my favorites .


Indeed. Some time ago, I bought a Mullard 12AX7 in the UK. The vendor REFUSED to send it out of the UK. I had to have it sent to my daughters parents in law, then my son in law picked up the parcel which the travelled to Washington DC. Still have not seen the tube, 2 months later. Buying valves in the UK? Well, let me see.


----------



## Paladin79

A Melz I bought for very little money in a group of tubes. Listening to it now, amazing right from the start. It has already been through my tube tester before and after I re-soldered the pins. I do not like to use the word re-flow since I removed the old solder and started fresh with new Kester.  A 1956 date on this one.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> A Melz I bought for very little money in a group of tubes. Listening to it now, amazing right from the start. It has already been through my tube tester before and after I re-soldered the pins. I do not like to use the word re-flow since I removed the old solder and started fresh with new Kester.  A 1956 date on this one.



Sweet!  You know, of course, that there's no way that tube can sound good until it gets 100 hours on it. Can't happen. Nope. Not possible. Would defy all known laws of physics, engineering, quantum mechanics, and probably even microbiology (in some way or another). 

Wait....I was thinking about a Foton.  Nevermind.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  You know, of course, that there's no way that tube can sound good until it gets 100 hours on it. Can't happen. Nope. Not possible. Would defy all known laws of physics, engineering, quantum mechanics, and probably even microbiology (in some way or another).
> 
> Wait....I was thinking about a Foton.  Nevermind.


Then I may have to listen to my Fotons many hours from now. Naturally I do not track the usage on any tube. Life is to short.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 19, 2019)

Well, if you start be sure to account for Daylight Savings Time and Standard Time.  That whole +/-1 hour can really mess one up when tracking actual tube hours.  

Oh -- and remember, one cannot count the silence between tracks.  Only actual music time.


----------



## Paladin79

On any given day I might listen to 18 tubes, change some out, change amps, headphones, speakers.


----------



## Ripper2860

Pffft.   The Cary alone has what, like 16 tubes??


----------



## Paladin79

Only 8 but I like to swap the 6SL7’s on occasion.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Oh -- and remember, one cannot count the silence between tracks.  Only actual music time.



Manson time counts double.


----------



## bcowen (May 19, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Pffft.   The Cary alone has what, like 16 tubes??



The Cary V-12i monoblocks I had at one time took 16 tubes.  Each.  Tube rolling had an entirely different meaning.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 19, 2019)

Hmmmmm.  Food, Electricity, and Mortgage payment...

... or new tubes for the mono-blocks?  






As if there was really a decision to make...

"Sorry, honey -- you and the kids will have to live at mom's for the next few months and sell the dog for scientific research!!"


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Hmmmmm.  Food, Electricity, and Mortgage payment...
> 
> ... or new tubes for the mono-blocks?
> 
> ...



LOL!  It was those 26 (2 for spares) 1968 Genalex Gold Lion KT-77's that got me.  Wish I still had 'em….


----------



## Paladin79

How much power per channel?  With those tubes at least 100 watts I would think @bcowen.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> How much power per channel?  With those tubes at least 100 watts I would think @bcowen.



They were really cool where you could switch them between triode and ultralinear operation. 100 watts (per amp) in pure triode and 200 in full ultralinear. Or any combination in-between (each quad of tubes was switchable) with differing wattage outputs in between. I always listened in pure triode as I hade some decently sensitive speakers at the time (Coincident Total Eclipses). They came with EL-34's and you could pump the juice a bit with KT-88's or KT-90's, but once I put the GEC KT-77's in there, I was ruined.


----------



## Keno18

I need an opinion as to whether or not an RCA 5670 is worthwhile to try in the Vali.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (May 21, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> I need an opinion as to whether or not an RCA 5670 is worthwhile to try in the Vali.


I have both WE396A and RCA JRC 5670 and I could not determine a large difference between these two tubes. They are among my favorite tubes in Vali 2, both on K702 and HE400i. My notes say that RCA tube is a little brighter, and that is has very good resolution, tonal balance, tight bass, and big 3D space. I liked it a little better on HE400i,


----------



## Keno18

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I have both WE396A and RCA JRC 5670 and I could not determine a large difference between these two tubes. They are among my favorite tubes in Vali 2, both on K702 and HE400i. My notes say that RCA tube is a little brighter, and that is has very good resolution, tonal balance, tight bass, and big 3D space. I liked it a little better on HE400i,


Thanks, just now bought one on ebay!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Keno18 said:


> Thanks, just now bought one on ebay!


Please share your experience, it is interesting to compare.


----------



## Keno18

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Please share your experience, it is interesting to compare.


Be happy to, as soon as it arrives.


----------



## bcowen (May 21, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I have both WE396A and RCA JRC 5670 and I could not determine a large difference between these two tubes. They are among my favorite tubes in Vali 2, both on K702 and HE400i. My notes say that RCA tube is a little brighter, and that is has very good resolution, tonal balance, tight bass, and big 3D space. I liked it a little better on HE400i,



My remembrance is that family of tubes (396A / 2C51 / 5670) sounds quite good in the Vali 2.  Lots of options at comparatively decent prices.  Well worth the cost of an adapter.

Edit: the Sylvania black plate 2C51's are also worth a listen.  The gray plate version was rather 'meh' to me but the black plate is worthy.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> My remembrance is that family of tubes (396A / 2C51 / 5670) sounds quite good in the Vali 2.  Lots of options at comparatively decent prices.  Well worth the cost of an adapter.
> 
> Edit: the Sylvania black plate 2C51's are also worth a listen.  The gray plate version was rather 'meh' to me but the black plate is worthy.



True. There's also some good 6n3p equivalents out there, namely the Foton triple micas, but IIRC @bcowen is bogarting the entire world supply.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> True. There's also some good 6n3p equivalents out there, namely the Foton triple micas, but IIRC @bcowen is bogarting the entire world supply.



LOL!  No, I'm hoarding all the rib plate 6N8S's.  I only have 8 of the 6N3P's.  That's not even to the minimum stock level spec...I need to buy more.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> I only have 8 of the 6N3P's.



You have 30-days to rectify the situation or your Tube Hoarders of America membership will be revoked.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You have 30-days to rectify the situation or your Tube Hoarders of America membership will be revoked.



30 days?  I'll have them ordered in the next 30 minutes.  I'm embarrassed to have been caught with an unacceptable stash level.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Delirious Lab said:


> Damn but Vali + 6SN7 is an awesome combo.  I have HD600's and have stopped yearning for LCD3's for the first time since I heard them at a meet a few years ago.  All this for $30 (Tung-Sol from Schiit) and an adapter.
> 
> My wallet is happy!  And so are my ears.  I never thought my HD600s were capable of such authoritative bass.



You're bang on, @Delirious Lab . Mind you, when I listened to my HD650 on my Vali2-with-ssaver-adapter-JJ 6SN7, I thought. This is great! Yeah! How about a Valhalla2?! I'm still happy with my big-tube-toy; however, I won't be rolling non-6N1P tubes on it.



bochawa said:


> I have the Tung-Sol 6SN7 and 6922 adapter from Tube Depot - just waiting for socket savers to arrive.  I'm tempted to remove the cover from the Vali 2 tonight, so I can plug the adapter straight into the board - it should fit, right?


Those ssavers were on backorder on TD. Has that changed? I'd like to pick up 4 for my VH2 to enhance passive cooling. (Shipping & customs $) > (4 adapters). Sheesh.


bcowen said:


> Never took the cover off my Vali 2.  Now that I think about it, that's very strange for me.
> 
> It should fit, just be sure that if the adapter has a metal base that the bottom of it isn't touching any of parts on the board (and end up shorting something out). The socket will probably lift it up high enough, but still take a close look before powering it up.


@bcowen ... There's ~60V tucked in that Vali2, right? As long as I don't get any hair-brained ideas about doing the same action on my VH2 (>>100V), I'll be safe.


bochawa said:


> Looks like it will fit just fine without touching anything on the board.


What I learned, @bochawa , was to properly align the LED indicator with the top chassis hole. I didn't do that for my Magni nor Vali and the LEDs were bent in (it reduced the glare but looked awful).


Mr Trev said:


> Yup, plenty of clearance with the top removed. Now if only you had one of those low-profile G1217 6sn7 adapters you could bore out the tube opening on the cover and it'd look like the 6sn7 was meant to be there. I thought of doing this myself many times, but I want to keep the stock cover intact - just in case


Once my Vali goes out of warranty (and add a couple of years on top of that), I might try that chassis modification. _My challenge will be to do that precision boring (I'm assuming with a drill press [not a dremel])_.


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> @bcowen ... There's ~60V tucked in that Vali2, right? As long as I don't get any hair-brained ideas about doing the same action on my VH2 (>>100V), I'll be safe.



Not sure what the Vali 2 has inside honestly, but 60 volts AC is just a tingle.  Most Hickok testers have close to that riding on the faceplate with the factory installed 2-prong power cord.  60 volts DC is a different story though.  Probably not enough to kill you, but I'd guess it would go from a tingle to most unpleasant.  Suggest unplugging it from the wall first and wait a bit for the capacitors to discharge to avoid that particular experience.  Or if your patience level mimics mine, go get some Playtex Living gloves to put on first.  Just be sure any spousal unit that may be in close proximity is clearly informed  about the purpose for them first...and it's not doing dishes.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Not sure what the Vali 2 has inside honestly, but 60 volts AC is just a tingle.  Most Hickok testers have close to that riding on the faceplate with the factory installed 2-prong power cord.  60 volts DC is a different story though.  Probably not enough to kill you, but I'd guess it would go from a tingle to most unpleasant.  Suggest unplugging it from the wall first and wait a bit for the capacitors to discharge to avoid that particular experience.  Or if your patience level mimics mine, go get some Playtex Living gloves to put on first.  Just be sure any spousal unit that may be in close proximity is clearly informed  about the purpose for them first...and it's not doing dishes.



Got bit by a 300v capacitor from a camera flash once. It was… interesting. For kicks I charged it back up and welded a screwdriver across the contacts


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Got bit by a 300v capacitor from a camera flash once. It was… interesting. For kicks I charged it back up and welded a screwdriver across the contacts



I got it from a 450v cap in a Cary amp once.  Once was enough, and fortunately I didn't die.  At least I don't think I did.


----------



## bochawa

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Those ssavers were on backorder on TD. Has that changed? I'd like to pick up 4 for my VH2 to enhance passive cooling. (Shipping & customs $) > (4 adapters). Sheesh.
> 
> What I learned, @bochawa , was to properly align the LED indicator with the top chassis hole. I didn't do that for my Magni nor Vali and the LEDs were bent in (it reduced the glare but looked awful).
> 
> Once my Vali goes out of warranty (and add a couple of years on top of that), I might try that chassis modification. _My challenge will be to do that precision boring (I'm assuming with a drill press [not a dremel])_.



I ended up ordering the socket savers from ebay, and they finally arrived yesterday.  Nevertheless, I'm about 90% decided on enlarging the hole in the cover with a combination of drilling followed by hand filing.


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> You're bang on, @Delirious Lab .
> What I learned, @bochawa , was to properly align the LED indicator with the top chassis hole. I didn't do that for my Magni nor Vali and the LEDs were bent in (it reduced the glare but looked awful).



It helps if you pull the LED out and forward so that you can get it to enter the front panel hole _before_ the studs engage in the keyhole slots up top.  There's enough slack in the LED's two wire leads to do this, just be sure they don't end up touching each other.  As you push the cover fully back into place, the LED will push back with it, and if it's sticking too far out for your liking after that you can push it further back in with your finger until it's flush with the front plate.

Never pulled my Vali apart, but I've pulled the Lyr 3 apart which has the same chassis assembly arrangement.


----------



## bcowen

bochawa said:


> I ended up ordering the socket savers from ebay, and they finally arrived yesterday.  Nevertheless, I'm about 90% decided on enlarging the hole in the cover with a combination of drilling followed by hand filing.



These work great for exactly this purpose.  Not sure if the one linked below is exactly the right size you want.  I just grabbed the first one on the page as an example...these come in lots of different diameters. We use these at work on a regular basis and it makes it easy to enlarge a hole and keep it perfectly round, especially in a soft material like aluminum.  Just go slow and don't force it -- let the bit kind of eat its way into the metal without exerting much pressure at all.

https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-10194A...words=varibit&qid=1558558133&s=gateway&sr=8-2


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> These work great for exactly this purpose.  Not sure if the one linked below is exactly the right size you want.  I just grabbed the first one on the page as an example...these come in lots of different diameters. We use these at work on a regular basis and it makes it easy to enlarge a hole and keep it perfectly round, especially in a soft material like aluminum.  Just go slow and don't force it -- let the bit kind of eat its way into the metal without exerting much pressure at all.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-10194A...words=varibit&qid=1558558133&s=gateway&sr=8-2


I may have to get one of those. There are tubes I would love to use in a Freya but the openings are just a bit small.  If it works well that is.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I may have to get one of those. There are tubes I would love to use in a Freya but the openings are just a bit small.  If it works well that is.



Works great at work where we use it on anything from aluminum to stainless.  The Lenox branded bits last a lot longer on stainless, but are much pricier and overkill for aluminum.  Slow speed, very little pressure....basically just the weight of the drill is enough downward pressure on aluminum, or very light pressure if cranking the handle on a drill press..  Test it and get the hang of it on something you build for @Ripper2860 .


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> It helps if you pull the LED out and forward so that you can get it to enter the front panel hole _before_ the studs engage in the keyhole slots up top.  There's enough slack in the LED's two wire leads to do this, just be sure they don't end up touching each other.  As you push the cover fully back into place, the LED will push back with it, and if it's sticking too far out for your liking after that you can push it further back in with your finger until it's flush with the front plate.
> 
> Never pulled my Vali apart, but I've pulled the Lyr 3 apart which has the same chassis assembly arrangement.



Works a charm. Its a pain getting things aligned without the LED sticking out a bit. I also took after my LED with some black paint. Seriously, the glowing tube isn't enough of an indication the device is powered on (that's my biggest complaint about the amp - the ridiculous death ray LED)



bcowen said:


> These work great for exactly this purpose.  Not sure if the one linked below is exactly the right size you want.  I just grabbed the first one on the page as an example...these come in lots of different diameters. We use these at work on a regular basis and it makes it easy to enlarge a hole and keep it perfectly round, especially in a soft material like aluminum.  Just go slow and don't force it -- let the bit kind of eat its way into the metal without exerting much pressure at all.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-10194A...words=varibit&qid=1558558133&s=gateway&sr=8-2



That type bit would be the route I was planning to go - useful little things, those. Should be fairly easy to keep things on centre


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Works great at work where we use it on anything from aluminum to stainless.  The Lenox branded bits last a lot longer on stainless, but are much pricier and overkill for aluminum.  Slow speed, very little pressure....basically just the weight of the drill is enough downward pressure on aluminum, or very light pressure if cranking the handle on a drill press..  Test it and get the hang of it on something you build for @Ripper2860 .


I will grab one just in case I work with more 1/8 inch copper. I am always drilling it out for VU meters and such. My metal cutting hole saws are usually just a bit large or too small.

These large holes in particular are tricky.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I will grab one just in case I work with more 1/8 inch copper. I am always drilling it out for VU meters and such. My metal cutting hole saws are usually just a bit large or too small.
> 
> These large holes in particular are tricky.



What material is that?  Marble?  Or some type of resin? 

Used to have a waterjet cutter at work, but it was too slow for our purposes.  Awesome though for cutting materials that chip or crack easily with regular saw blades or drill bits.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 23, 2019)

bcowen said:


> What material is that?  Marble?  Or some type of resin?
> 
> Used to have a waterjet cutter at work, but it was too slow for our purposes.  Awesome though for cutting materials that chip or crack easily with regular saw blades or drill bits.


That is 1/8th inch solid copper that I added a patina to. It is then sealed with a clear acrylic or polymer. That whole process takes one day once you learn how to do it.  I can teach you steps if you ever want to try it out. You can go for a deep blue or green pretty easily, other colors get to be tricky and some of the materials can get very caustic. This is just ammonia and sea salt in a hastily constructed chamber sealed with a plastic bag. You can find more of my work if you do a search for images of Steampunk Bottlehead Crack and you will see more of the process there as I recall.


----------



## Keno18

My RCA 5670 ebay order was cancelled because the vendor couldn't find them in his inventory! I just placed an order for 2 1964 Sylvania JHD 5670s for about the same price. Will let you know how they sound when I hopefully get them.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> That is 1/8th inch solid copper that I added a patina to. It is then sealed with a clear acrylic or polymer. That whole process takes one day once you learn how to do it.  I can teach you steps if you ever want to try it out. You can go for a deep blue or green pretty easily, other colors get to be tricky and some of the materials can get very caustic. This is just ammonia and sea salt in a hastily constructed chamber sealed with a plastic bag. You can find more of my work if you do a search for images of Steampunk Bottlehead Crack and you will see more of the process there as I recall.



Looks great. Got any tips on bluing steel?


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Looks great. Got any tips on bluing steel?



Nope. Sorry I have not done that before. I did look online and there are instructions there for four different kinds of bluing techniques.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Looks great. Got any tips on bluing steel?



Not sure what you're starting with.  I've used the Birchwood stuff before to touch up some wear spots.  Took a couple applications, but it ended up working quite nicely _without_ messing up the unaffected surrounding areas.  If you're starting from scratch, I think it would be extremely difficult to get a consistent and uniform finish with this stuff (but have never actually tried it like that).  So in my experience it's great for touch-ups, but an unknown for a fresh project. 


https://www.amazon.com/Birchwood-Ca...=B07RL3WWBV&psc=1&refRID=K0JWDCWYWS93NTQS451B


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Not sure what you're starting with.  I've used the Birchwood stuff before to touch up some wear spots.  Took a couple applications, but it ended up working quite nicely _without_ messing up the unaffected surrounding areas.  If you're starting from scratch, I think it would be extremely difficult to get a consistent and uniform finish with this stuff (but have never actually tried it like that).  So in my experience it's great for touch-ups, but an unknown for a fresh project.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Birchwood-Ca...=B07RL3WWBV&psc=1&refRID=K0JWDCWYWS93NTQS451B



I was thinking if I made a new lid for my Vali, I'd use a piece of steel, blued of course to make it look cool. I also have a headphone stand that'd look sweet if it was blued, except its made of medical grade SS and I think it'd be "too pure" for bluing to work


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I was thinking if I made a new lid for my Vali, I'd use a piece of steel, blued of course to make it look cool. I also have a headphone stand that'd look sweet if it was blued, except its made of medical grade SS and I think it'd be "too pure" for bluing to work



I seriously doubt the Birchwood would work on stainless at all. Probably only works with decent results on plain old carbon steel.  But plain old carbon steel may have a negative effect on the sound with how it deals with magnetic fields, EMI, etc.  Just postulating on that...have nothing scientific to offer as any proof.  But most high-end component makers use something other than plain old carbon steel for their chassis', and there's likely a reason for that beyond simple cosmetics.  Now, if you have the metalworking tools, I have 16 gauge 2B mill finish stainless at work. The 2B finish is a dull gray with no grain pattern to it, unlike the much shinier, polished stainless we're used to seeing on appliances and such.  I have small pieces left as drop from cutting big sheets, but small to us at work is like huge in reference to a Vali cover.    If you want to play with a piece of that, shoot me a PM and I'll send you a couple pieces. Again, you'll need the tools...all I have is the metal. And all I have is 16 gauge, which is a little thicker than the Vali's aluminum.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Just postulating on that...have nothing scientific to offer as any proof.



So basically like every post you've ever made at Head-fi!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> So basically like every post you've ever made at Head-fi!!



Yeah, well, we can't all be experts now, can we?

Oh, BTW I just got a better offer on the 752.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 23, 2019)

So I guess I'll need to cancel the ATCT name change request.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> So I guess I'll need to cancel the ATCT name change request.



Yeah, sorry.  But seeing that I'd hate to lose my reputation as a nice guy, I searched high and low and found another tester for you. Want me to go ahead and order it?


----------



## Ripper2860

As intriguing as the cup holder is and despite your most generous offer…

*NO thank you!!!*


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I seriously doubt the Birchwood would work on stainless at all. Probably only works with decent results on plain old carbon steel.  But plain old carbon steel may have a negative effect on the sound with how it deals with magnetic fields, EMI, etc.  Just postulating on that...have nothing scientific to offer as any proof.  But most high-end component makers use something other than plain old carbon steel for their chassis', and there's likely a reason for that beyond simple cosmetics.  Now, if you have the metalworking tools, I have 16 gauge 2B mill finish stainless at work. The 2B finish is a dull gray with no grain pattern to it, unlike the much shinier, polished stainless we're used to seeing on appliances and such.  I have small pieces left as drop from cutting big sheets, but small to us at work is like huge in reference to a Vali cover.    If you want to play with a piece of that, shoot me a PM and I'll send you a couple pieces. Again, you'll need the tools...all I have is the metal. And all I have is 16 gauge, which is a little thicker than the Vali's aluminum.



Never thought about magnetic fields/RF, I was mostly thinking workability - I only have hand tools. Probably something to reconsider - tho that copper @Paladin79 has might look cool on the Vali.
The mill finish is similar to my headphone stand - no grain, but it's way thicker than 16 ga. (been long enough our PMs have been wiped so I can't get the material specifics and he doesn't seem to be online anymore)
That's mighty generous, your offer. Considering I'm in Canada, the shipping cost might not be worth it. I might still PM you my address so you can give me a shipping quote.


----------



## bcowen (May 23, 2019)

Mr Trev said:


> Never thought about magnetic fields/RF, I was mostly thinking workability - I only have hand tools. Probably something to reconsider - tho that copper @Paladin79 has might look cool on the Vali.
> The mill finish is similar to my headphone stand - no grain, but it's way thicker than 16 ga. (been long enough our PMs have been wiped so I can't get the material specifics and he doesn't seem to be online anymore)
> That's mighty generous, your offer. Considering I'm in Canada, the shipping cost might not be worth it. I might still PM you my address so you can give me a shipping quote.



Copper would be cool too, and a whole lot easier to work with (depending on the thickness). Probably a great RF shield to boot.  Stick it out in the rain for a few days and it'll get that dark, dull look pretty quickly...

Edit: I meant put it outside before installing it on the Vali.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen (May 23, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> As intriguing as the cup holder is and despite your most generous offer…
> 
> *NO thank you!!!*



Well, OK. I tried.

  <-- the smiley cat is just for you.

PS: that hole is NOT a cup holder, you rookie.  It's where you stick your hand inside to check if it's on.


----------



## Paladin79

So what is that tester and how much might it cost?

And I can make most anything out of copper, it is pretty workable. I try not to do polished copper because the slightest scratch shows.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> So what is that tester and how much might it cost?



Which one?  The replacement for @Ripper2860 with the hand hole for voltage testing?  It's $90 Buy It Now with offers accepted.  Been there for quite a while, so I imagine an offer below $90 would be accepted.  605A's are quite nice testers, but meters for them are extremely difficult (if not impossible) to find.  I could live without the roll chart (but don't want to), and with the meter pulled it makes you wonder what all else is wrong with it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hickok-Mic...05A/202685612243?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144


Here's another one I've been eyeballing. Been there for a while too with the price reduced a couple times now to $150.  Seller states it's not operational, but it could be something as simple as the power cord that's in tatters, or the shorts bulb that looks like it's blown the way it's glazed inside. Could be a hell of a deal if it can be made operational that easily. Case isn't in lovable shape, but not nearly as horrible as my last project.  Could be made decent (not perfect) without a gargantuan PITA factor.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VTG-Hickok-605A-Micromho-Dynamic-Mutual-Conductance-Tube-Tester-Analyzer-USA/303128356225?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=1&asc=20131003132420&meid=d2678de613624d54a4ba869e0b57a1b6&pid=100005&rk=2&rkt=7&sd=202685612243&itm=303128356225&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

I just bought a decent looking 600A for a song and another 800A for a little more than a song but still cheap or I'd probably jump on that 605A for $150 and take the chance.  The meter alone (assuming it works) could probably be sold for close to that. But my tester budget is shot for now....along with the spousal unit's patience.


----------



## Paladin79

I just glanced at it so no sense trying to find a meter, that is the one I wondered about.


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## Robert Padgett (May 23, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Copper would be cool too, and a whole lot easier to work with (depending on the thickness). Probably a great RF shield to boot.  Stick it out in the rain for a few days and it'll get that dark, dull look pretty quickly...
> 
> Edit: I meant put it outside before installing it on the Vali.  LOL!


And then is that googlemachine and it is changing the World...
It is nice to know that it is useful for things than other growing "tomatoes"

"For a blue *patina*, mix one part Miracle-Gro with three parts water for a solution that you can spray or wipe onto the *copper*. For a green *patina*, mix one part Miracle-Gro with three parts red wine vinegar. A *patina* will form within 30 minutes and become permanent within 24 hours."--

https://www.worldcoppersmith.com/copper-patina-guide/


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I just glanced at it so no sense trying to find a meter, that is the one I wondered about.



That's exactly why I was looking at it for @Ripper2860 . He wouldn't bother trying to find a meter either as it would block the spot for his cup.


----------



## Paladin79

Lol, nice of you to watch for such treasures!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Lol, nice of you to watch for such treasures!



That's why I'm here.....just to help.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> I got it from a 450v cap in a Cary amp once.  Once was enough, and fortunately I didn't die.  At least I don't think I did.


With my grade 9 students, I natter on about how it's the current, not the voltage that's dangerous. I also have to deal with the AC versus DC fallacy... which one is more dangerous to use on a workbench (after that lesson, I occasionally get the odd hell-i-on who takes a dozen or so flashlight batteries and wire them up in series). Sigh.... BTW, I like how @Mr Trev zapped himself... and then did it again to look at the pretty arc. (+1)  Nice! I'm working hard on making more proto-Mr_Trev (s) come up through the ranks.


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> With my grade 9 students, I natter on about how it's the current, not the voltage that's dangerous. I also have to deal with the AC versus DC fallacy... which one is more dangerous to use on a workbench (after that lesson, I occasionally get the odd hell-i-on who takes a dozen or so flashlight batteries and wire them up in series). Sigh.... BTW, I like how @Mr Trev zapped himself... and then did it again to look at the pretty arc. (+1)  Nice! I'm working hard on making more proto-Mr_Trev (s) come up through the ranks.



ROFL!   Just be sure you're not the one getting the credit for the idiotic zap victim that goes fatal.


----------



## bcowen

If anybody uses their amp upside down, I found a rectifier tube you should buy.


----------



## Mr Trev

ScubaMan2017 said:


> With my grade 9 students, I natter on about how it's the current, not the voltage that's dangerous. I also have to deal with the AC versus DC fallacy... which one is more dangerous to use on a workbench (after that lesson, I occasionally get the odd hell-i-on who takes a dozen or so flashlight batteries and wire them up in series). Sigh.... BTW, I like how @Mr Trev zapped himself... and then did it again to look at the pretty arc. (+1)  Nice! I'm working hard on making more proto-Mr_Trev (s) come up through the ranks.



Aw hell. That's just the tip of the iceberg of stupid s--t I did in my younger days


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Aw hell. That's just the tip of the iceberg of stupid s--t I did in my younger days



Youth is irrelevant in my case.


----------



## triggsviola

Another acquisition. This one is my new favorite. A Russian 6H8C from the 1960s that I got from Uspcale. Cheap and cheerful. Smooth and nice.


----------



## rgmffn

triggsviola said:


> Another acquisition. This one is my new favorite. A Russian 6H8C from the 1960s that I got from Uspcale. Cheap and cheerful. Smooth and nice.


I have 3 of those. I really liked them when I first got them. One especially, stands out. But it soon fell out of my (RRR) routinely rolled rotation. I acquired them early on in my hunt, for the Holy Grail.   Nothing wrong with them though.


----------



## Keno18 (May 25, 2019)

Spent the day listening to the 1964 Sylvania JHD 5670s that arrived today. I didn't expect such big sound out of a,littlte tube. So far the top end is just a little rolled off from the 6sn7gt mouse ears, not worse just different. The sound stage is very wide and the imaging is 3 dimensional. The low end is tight with a good slam of authority. It checks all the boxes of what I look for in a tube. At no time did I feel the urge to change to another tube as if I was missing something. This was a real bargain at less than  $11 a tube. If there are better sounding versions of this tube then I'm in for a real treat.


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> Spent the day listening to the 1964 Sylvania JHD 5670s that arrived today. I didn't expect such big sound out of a,littlte tube. So far the top end is just a little rolled off from the 6sn7gt mouse ears, not worse just different. The sound stage is very wide and the imaging is 3 dimensional. The low end is tight with a good slam of authority. It checks all the boxes of what I look for in a tube. At no time did I feel the urge to change to another tube as if I was missing something. This was a real bargain at less than  $11 a tube. If there are better sounding versions of this tube then I'm in for a real treat.



Have you tried a Western Electric 396A?  Not gonna find 'em for $11 a tube unfortunately, but they are one of the greats in that tube family (IMO).


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> Have you tried a Western Electric 396A?  Not gonna find 'em for $11 a tube unfortunately, but they are one of the greats in that tube family (IMO).


I'll be on the lookout for that, thanks for the tip.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

triggsviola said:


> Another acquisition. This one is my new favorite. A Russian 6H8C from the 1960s that I got from Uspcale. Cheap and cheerful. Smooth and nice.


Would you mind showing "us" it at work (*the glow*). I'm happy with my Slovakian glass (JJ Electronics); however, it's not as incandescent as my stock tube.


----------



## triggsviola

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Would you mind showing "us" it at work (*the glow*). I'm happy with my Slovakian glass (JJ Electronics); however, it's not as incandescent as my stock tube.



Sure! This is the only angle where you can see the glow with these tubes.


----------



## Robert Padgett

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Would you mind showing "us" it at work (*the glow*). I'm happy with my Slovakian glass (JJ Electronics); however, it's not as incandescent as my stock tube.


   The JJ has a good glow in a semi-dark room, especially inside the plate. But it takes a time exposure to really see them glow.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> The JJ has a good glow in a semi-dark room, especially inside the plate. But it takes a time exposure to really see them glow.



I don't care about the glow...I want a tube with green plates like that.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> I don't care about the glow...I want a tube with green plates like that.


Do your time exposures with a mercury halide dusk to dawn lamp outside the window...eerie green glow.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> Do your time exposures with a mercury halide dusk to dawn lamp outside the window...eerie green glow.



If I knew anything about photography beyond touching the button on my iPhone, this would be great advice!


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 28, 2019)

Pop a hole-plate Melz into your amp for a bit of a light show!!  

** Pushed a button on a Samsung phone.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Pop a hole-plate Melz into your amp for a bit of a light show!!
> 
> ** Pushed a button on a Samsung phone.



Your Samsung obviously has a better button than my iPhone.  Or maybe it's the user.  Nah, can't be that.  

Too bad I don't currently have an amp to fire up a 211 or 845.  No extended exposure required, or even a dark room for that matter.  The dark room does, however, help reduce the exponential increase in the electric bill...


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jun 2, 2019)

Dear fellow tube rollers, hereby another call for sharing experiences and advice. Until recently, I had a single 6C8G from RCA. As I quite liked the tube, I bought some more. On the inspection, while all have somewhat similar anode plates (smooth, round with flat sides), the rest of the construction may be quite different. Any experience with which one sounds the best to you?

RCA JAN-CRC6C8-G, code 2-09: round top mica, "fake racecourse" bottom mica, anode plates protruding triangles through top mica

 

National Union JAN-CNU-6C8G VT-163: similar top and bottom mica - round spiked, 2 support rods, anode plates protruding rectangles through top mica

  

Raytheon coded over 280 under 152: similar top and bottom mica, smooth round, with "umbrella ribs" mica spacers, non-protruding  anode plates on spikes through mica,

  

Sylvania U.S. Navy C.H.S. 6C8G: similar racetrack mica top and bottom, non-protruding  anode plates on wires through mica, wire mica spacers to glass

 

Sylvania 6C8G, "green leaf" symbol, code N over 9 [1949]: bottom mica racetrack, round spiked top mica, "razor" plastic mica spacers to glass, non-protruding  anode plates on wires through mica
  

KenRad 6C8G, coded A over 3: similar top and bottom mica - "winged" racetrack, anode plates held by clips welded to micas top and bottom, non-protruding anode plates on wires through mica, _wire_ mica spacers to glass

  

KenRad JAN-CKR-6C8G KEN-RAD VT-163 on base, 5960-188-8497 PKD 1/57 METH.III on box, coded R3C on glass core inside: similar top and bottom mica - "winged" racetrack, anode plates held by clips welded to micas top and bottom, non-protruding  anode plates on wires through mica, "razor" _plastic _mica spacers to glass

 

So, what do we see:

almost similar anodes in all tubes but National Union and RCA (round but with two wings, wings in parallel, and spaced further apart than others which almost meet at cylinder-shaped parts of the plates), a wide variety of mica shapes, anode plates either protruding through micas or held by wires, or by clips welded to micas (KenRad), with (NU) or without (all the rest) support rods, mica spacers either plastic or wire.

Looking forward to hear your exprience on sonic qualities of various constructions.


----------



## Badas

^

A friend and I experimented with a lot of those. We really didn't like the Sylvania's. We found them very lean.

We discovered what you have. That is the NU and some RCA's use the same plates.
That got us excited as the two best sounding 6C8G's are the Tung-Sol roundplates and the NU. 
The thought that their was also RCA's that were close in construction as the NU at cheaper prices made us look closer. 

After a lot of listening we came to this conclusion. The RCA's were not as good as the NU's. The NU's had more weight and a sweeter treble. 
We also noted those plates being closer together. Somehow that changed the sound. 
A thing to note is NU has a buzz issue. A lot have a hum. We wondered if the plates closer together causes it.
It is interesting that NU and RCA used the same plates. There seem to be a lot more RCA and with older dates. We figured RCA plates were made by RCA and then sold to NU.

Our findings were that the best sounding 6C8G's were equal between TS round plate and NU. Third was the RCA's with the NU plates.
TS round plate has a fuller mid-range. NU has a sweeter treble. Pick your poison.
I ultimately had issues with the noise of NU's. I found sets that were quiet and I still have them stored away. However they were 50/50 on noise issues.
I did not have the same issue with TS round plate so I collected 16 sets for future use. It is what I use today.

Stored away I have 16 sets of TSRP, 4 sets of quiet NU's and 8 sets of RCA's with the NU plates. 
The rest have been passed on.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Badas said:


> ^
> 
> A friend and I experimented with a lot of those. We really didn't like the Sylvania's. We found them very lean.
> 
> ...



Thank you for sharing. Extremely useful!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Finally. Twin 7A4. Sylvania VT-192 JAN 

 

However. Tried 6 - SIX! CBS 7A4 NOS NIB, in the same adapter - only ONE worked. Cleaned the pins - no cigar. I thought the adapter was schtupped, but switched the tubes around - no, same tube always worked. I have more of them, but wanted to check the other brand first. Now took first two Sylvania's VT-192, also NOS NIB, both work on the first insert. Sylvanias (even with D micas) sound gorgeous as they are warming up. What the heck with the CBS, anyone???


----------



## Paladin79

I have mainly tried Sylvania and have had great success with them. I have no idea what is up with your CBS tubes though, maybe the seller never checked them, or thought they were good?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I have mainly tried Sylvania and have had great success with them. I have no idea what is up with your CBS tubes though, maybe the seller never checked them, or thought they were good?


They are NOS NIB, as well as Sylvanias, so we never checked with he seller, I just paid peanuts for them. As we talked, I would like to send you a pair of known working CBS 7A4s, but my tester is still in DC. I will go through all of them in Vali 2, as they do not seem shorted (would have cooked the amp, would't they?). As cleaning the pins mechanically did not help, and other tubes work out of the box, maybe they are just duds. Once I have tried them all, if just that one is working, I can send you 6 or 8, if you won't recover them, you can at least use them in the can stands,or send them on to you know who  - that guy who thinks Sylvanias with D shaped micas are not good...


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 3, 2019)

I do have a tube tester and I can check them before using them in my adapter. I doubt seriously they are shorted but no matter what I am curious as to what is going on and I will help in any way I can.

LOL oh I know who you mean, I am sure the guy comes from a good home but through the years he has developed some ways about him that may be considered abnormal. I mean that in the nicest possible way.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Finally. Twin 7A4. Sylvania VT-192 JAN
> 
> 
> 
> However. Tried 6 - SIX! CBS 7A4 NOS NIB, in the same adapter - only ONE worked. Cleaned the pins - no cigar. I thought the adapter was schtupped, but switched the tubes around - no, same tube always worked. I have more of them, but wanted to check the other brand first. Now took first two Sylvania's VT-192, also NOS NIB, both work on the first insert. Sylvanias (even with D micas) sound gorgeous as they are warming up. What the heck with the CBS, anyone???



When you say "not working" do you mean no sound at all (as opposed to just sounding bad)?  If so, outside chance it's a pin soldering issue.  Have yet to see that in US made tubes (it always seems to be the Russkies with that problem), but you never know.  Or as Tom suggested, they may just be dud tubes. But if they were just worn out, it seems you'd get some sound out of them, just not to the level where they'd sound good.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jun 3, 2019)

not working = not a pip. no sound at all. heaters work. no visual signs of leakage. not worn out - NOS NIB. Loctals. so not pin soldering


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 3, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> not working = not a pip. no sound at all. heaters work. no visual signs of leakage. not worn out - NOS NIB. Loctals. so not pin soldering



I have bought a lot of loctal sockets I had trouble with, and I would suspect that more than totally dead tubes. Some of the Chinese sockets were so bad that certain tubes would not even plug in. I was going to build my own loctal to octal sockets and have given up on the idea for a bit till I find better quality sockets. Maybe there is a slight difference on pin size that is causing the issue with those sockets.  I bought some adapters that did not work well, the tubes would go part way into the sockets but pop back out.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Maybe there is a slight difference on pin size that is causing the issue with those sockets.


Bravo. That's what I thought. too. But if so why should there  be ONE tube in a batch, that ALWAYS works as I switch it from one socket to another, and 5 that NEVER work in any of the two sockets?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 3, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Bravo. That's what I thought. too. But if so why should there  be ONE tube in a batch, that ALWAYS works as I switch it from one socket to another, and 5 that NEVER work in any of the two sockets?



Maybe the one tube was produced at a different time with slightly different materials. Plug a tube from 40-60 years ago into a socket made last week and I would suspect the socket is out of spec. I believe the indention around the tube base shaft has a lot to do with those tubes locking down.

Here is some good info on various types of tube pins and sockets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_socket


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have bought a lot of loctal sockets I had trouble with, and I would suspect that more than totally dead tubes. Some of the Chinese sockets were so bad that certain tubes would not even plug in. I was going to build my own loctal to octal sockets and have given up on the idea for a bit till I find better quality sockets. Maybe there is a slight difference on pin size that is causing the issue with those sockets.  I bought some adapters that did not work well, the tubes would go part way into the sockets but pop back out.



I had trouble too with the first loctal adapter I bought (Chinese on both sides). Decided to make my own. The NOS Cinch or Amphenol sockets work great.  The Cinch are not the best option for rolling as they grab hold of the tube and won't let go -- feels like you're gonna break the tube trying to pull them out. But they make a really nice electrical connection. The Amphenols are better for rolling -- good electrical connection, but not the death grip of the Cinch's  Both can be a little pricey, but I picked up a couple unused Amphenols for $10 a couple months ago so there are decent deals that pop up out there.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jun 3, 2019)

Had two Philco-branded NOS NIB 7A4 tubes, look like Sylvanias from construction, D-micas. Stuck them into the adapter - beautiful sound from the first try. Will try the rest of the CBS now, just get out on the terrace for a smoke.


----------



## Paladin79

I was very happy with Sylvania 7a4's and I have them with both types of micas. I make no claims on having extraordinary hearing but I do have a young friend who has tested way above average on different wire, DACS, and tubes in double blind testing she was subjected to. I will have to have her give a listen to both types of Sylvanias one day. I am talking about the only person who could consistently pick out three foot long pieces of headphone wire out of 20 samples, everything else being equal.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jun 3, 2019)

OK. Took 6 more CBS 7A4s from the same batch. All work right out of the box... but I have not cleaned the glass bulbs with slightly moist and then dry microfiber cloth... as I did the other 6...  What?
EDIT: need more time to compare to Sylvanias, but they sound gorgeous, too! Tom. will be sending you two pairs right now - my son flies to New York in the morning, and will post them from there.


----------



## Paladin79

sounds great thanks!  My son is across the Potomac from DC but that does not help much with your tube tester. If he flies anywhere close to Belgium in the near future I will get back with you.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Trying to place the sound signature of those CBS 7A4. Absolutely clear, crystal, silver sound, but not clinical. Amazing soundstage and placement, somewhat forward, beautiful timbral balance, with very pronounced upper mids. Magical, but very special. I am repeating myself - so clear, as if all veil has been removed from the music, like increased resolution. Almost too clear, but after a while - no, not too much. Just special... Never heard a comparable signature. I seem to like it a lot. Let see what time does to it.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Trying to place the sound signature of those CBS 7A4. Absolutely clear, crystal, silver sound, but not clinical. Amazing soundstage and placement, somewhat forward, beautiful timbral balance, with very pronounced upper mids. Magical, but very special. I am repeating myself - so clear, as if all veil has been removed from the music, like increased resolution. Almost too clear, but after a while - no, not too much. Just special... Never heard a comparable signature. I seem to like it a lot. Let see what time does to it.


I am curious to check those out sometime. I cannot recall if you figured out who manufactured them?


----------



## ScubaMan2017

*I have an odd question for the thread*: has anyone noticed twisted or _*braided filament systems*_ (?) at the base of their glass tubes (_*inside the chamber*_)? Wiring on DIY amplifiers are braided to reduce EM interference... I got that. *It might also be used on some tubes!? * I stumbled across this episode of Mister Carlson's Lab, and at timestamp ~1h 48 minutes...


...or....

*Source: *YouTube episode posted March 5, 2019. Accessed 19:42 EST, June 9, 2019. _Episode 168: Electronic Repair Adventure -- The Signal Tracer_. Author: Paul Carlson. Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.

Normally, I'd attribute it to quirky tube assembly; however, the author makes a strong argument for this point. He suspects braided wires within the tubes reduce hum, and encourages amplifier assemblers tell the difference between high quality tubes and high quality audio (Hi-Fi) tubes.
*Five Examples*:
Telefunken 12AT7/ECC81 (West Germany);
General Electric 5751 (Made In Canada);
12AX7A (7025a version) Aofola (Canada) [_I'm sorry, I can't read it easily_];
RCA JAN 5691 (Made in USA 5-43);
5879 CO TX
_*I don't have to go to Tube Depot to guess these 5 valves are far, far above my price range. I know there's a whole assortment of rollers on the thread (who might have these brands). Can one confirm this interesting characteristic for me*_?

Wanting to learn more,
ScubaMan. Toronto, Ontario, Canada.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I am curious to check those out sometime. I cannot recall if you figured out who manufactured them?


Not that much to figure out from, but still in the dark. In principle loctal tubes were only made by Sylvania, National Union, and Raytheon (RCA was been reported to try and abandon). However, Internet does not know about CBS branded 7A4. I found one instance of Hytron branded 7A4, but they sported a reflective band above the base - absent on the CBS. Philco branded pair that I have could be National Union as they were later owned by Philco, but look and sound similar to Sylvanias. Sources say almost all rebranded loctals to have been made by Sylvania. Why so different sound signature then - no idea.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Not that much to figure out from, but still in the dark. In principle loctal tubes were only made by Sylvania, National Union, and Raytheon (RCA was been reported to try and abandon). However, Internet does not know about CBS branded 7A4. I found one instance of Hytron branded 7A4, but they sported a reflective band above the base - absent on the CBS. Philco branded pair that I have could be National Union as they were later owned by Philco, but look and sound similar to Sylvanias. Sources say almost all rebranded loctals to have been made by Sylvania. Why so different sound signature then - no idea.



I did quite a bit of research a while back on 7N7's (also loctal base), and from what I was able to gather Sylvania and National Union were the only two manufacturers of that tube type regardless of how the tube was branded. However, I never found anything that was totally definitive.  Been playing with some 7AF7's here recently (another loctal) that is almost identical electrically to a 7N7 except with a little lower gain.  Have 3 right now -- one branded Marconi, one branded GE, and one branded Sylvania, and they are all identical inside. I'm guessing they were all made by Sylvania, but again have nothing definitive to support that guess...


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 10, 2019)

I am not sure they used a three digit code back then to tell you actual manufacturer. I have owned and checked about 250 various types and on many of the used tubes you are lucky to see the tube number on the top, let alone who made it.

I do really like the 7A4's though, I had to do a lot more searching to find octal equivalent 6j5's that sounded as good to me.  Both have similar separation.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am not sure they used a three digit code back then to tell you actual manufacturer. I have owned and checked about 250 various types and on many of the used tubes you are lucky to see the tube number on the top, let alone who made it.
> 
> I do really like the 7A4's though, I had to do a lot more searching to find octal equivalent 6j5's that sounded as good to me.  Both have similar separation.



Many of the 7N7's in my stash have the branded manufacturers 3-digit EIA code printed on the glass even though they were all made by Sylvania.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 10, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Many of the 7N7's in my stash have the branded manufacturers 3-digit EIA code printed on the glass even though they were all made by Sylvania.



You are probably hoarding all the pretty ones. Mine are lucky to still have remaining glass and a chance at amplification. 

Oh wait I got some NOS, I should check those sometime. I am not sure I ever tested them or listened to them. Too many tubes, too little time.  Tempus sure does fugit.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jun 10, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Many of the 7N7's in my stash have the branded manufacturers 3-digit EIA code printed on the glass even though they were all made by Sylvania.


They look quite different though.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Vintage-...e-Preamp-Tube-Valve-RCA-Sylvania/163704531666






Any particular ones you liked most?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You are probably hoarding all the pretty ones. Mine are lucky to still have remaining glass and a chance at amplification.
> 
> Oh wait I got some NOS, I should check those sometime. I am not sure I ever tested them or listened to them. Too many tubes, too little time.  Tempus sure does fugit.



Tom, Tom, Tom....I'm _collecting_.  @Ripper2860 is the hoarder.

Please make a note of it.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> They look quite different though.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Vintage-...e-Preamp-Tube-Valve-RCA-Sylvania/163704531666
> 
> 
> ...



The Frankentube configuration is the only one I really like.  Others aren't bad tubes at all, but the Frankie's are pretty special (IMO).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Tom, Tom, Tom....I'm _collecting_.  @Ripper2860 is the hoarder.
> 
> Please make a note of it.


I will note that on my calendar. That starts today right?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> The Frankentube configuration is the only one I really like.  Others aren't bad tubes at all, but the Frankie's are pretty special (IMO).


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Philco-Lansdale-7N7-PLATINUM-GRADE-Tall-Bottle-Chrome-Top-Tubes-Match-Pair/392308055786






Looks like true Frankentubes?


----------



## Ripper2860

Yep. They are Frankies.    Bill and I both bought a pair from this seller recently.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep. They are Frankies.    Bill and I both bought a pair from this seller recently.


Thank you. #metoo


----------



## Ripper2860

And they are the rare Lansdale Frankie's, to boot!


----------



## Paladin79

Ok I will try a pair in the Freya + just to see how they do. These will be the last tubes I buy for a while most likely, with adapters they will stick way out of the Freya.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep. They are Frankies.    Bill and I both bought a pair from this seller recently.



Minor correction: I bought two pairs...'cause I'm a _collector_.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Minor correction: I bought two pairs...'cause I'm a _collector_.



You say 'mater -- I say tomato.  You say collector, I say *HOARDER!!!!!*


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Philco-Lansdale-7N7-PLATINUM-GRADE-Tall-Bottle-Chrome-Top-Tubes-Match-Pair/392308055786
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup, the real deal.  And as @Ripper2860 already noted, they're Lansdale labeled.  Becoming very hard to find.  Pretty sure they were made by Sylvania and I *think* Lansdale just tested them and then stamped those that met certain specs with the JAN designation.  The Lansdale labeled ones I already have seem to sound the best of the Frankie construction. That may be a complete figment of my imagination, but I've done a good job of convincing myself.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> That may be a complete figment of my imagination, but I've done a good job of convincing myself.



You give yourself way too much credit.  You have no imagination!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You say 'mater -- I say tomato.  You say collector, I say *HOARDER!!!!!*



Either you're a good teacher or I'm a good learner, but either way you taught me well.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> These will be the last tubes I buy for a while...



   

Wait....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

You had me goin' there for a minute.


----------



## bochawa

Finished the modification to the cover of my b-stock Vali tonight.  No socket saver needed here!


----------



## Ripper2860

Very nice work. Vali 2 or Lyr, Jr?


----------



## bcowen

bochawa said:


> Finished the modification to the cover of my b-stock Vali tonight.  No socket saver needed here!



Beautiful!  Very nice.  Now all you need is a 6J5 or 7A4 adapter.


----------



## bochawa

Oh boy, more adapter madness!  So far I'm happy with the sound of the new Tung-Sol tube.


----------



## Paladin79

bochawa said:


> Oh boy, more adapter madness!  So far I'm happy with the sound of the new Tung-Sol tube.



Very nice work indeed. The single triode tubes (6j5 and 7a4) offer better separation IMHO but as far as overall SQ, there are many fine 6sn7's out there as well. I am more curious than anything about some of the past tubes that were compatible with them so I have tried any compatible combination I could lay my hands on. I am not sure I recommend that path but it never hurts to know all of your options.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bochawa said:


> Oh boy, more adapter madness!  So far I'm happy with the sound of the new Tung-Sol tube.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


>



For over a year I avoided a different tube with adapter in an amp I built, someone on here kept suggesting 6sn7's instead of 12Au7's, I kept saying no. Finally he sent me a vintage RCA grey glass from 1942 with adapter, as a gift. I have been hooked on that type of tube ever since and all but one of my tube amps has one variation over another. Till you hear something, it is a little hard to know what you are missing.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


>



LOL!  You guys are worse than me....and that's saying something.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bochawa said:


> Finished the modification to the cover of my b-stock Vali tonight.  No socket saver needed here!


Holy carp. You are the reamer-master (uh, that's a sleazy double meaning). Its edges are nice and clean. The air vents didn't warp. Dremel-master. You're that. Nice, eh.


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Holy carp.



I hate perforated fish.   

(sorry)


----------



## bochawa

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Holy carp. You are the reamer-master (uh, that's a sleazy double meaning). Its edges are nice and clean. The air vents didn't warp. Dremel-master. You're that. Nice, eh.



Thanks everyone, it was a lot of work with a Dremel with drill press accessory.  I'm sure there are faster ways to do it.  I used a circle template to draw a 1.5 inch diameter circle on the underside of the cover, then drilled a series of small connecting holes to remove most of the waste.  Finished with the sanding drum and slowly worked to the line.  It's not perfect, but I'm pleased with the result.


----------



## rgmffn

bochawa said:


> Thanks everyone, it was a lot of work with a Dremel with drill press accessory.  I'm sure there are faster ways to do it.  I used a circle template to draw a 1.5 inch diameter circle on the underside of the cover, then drilled a series of small connecting holes to remove most of the waste.  Finished with the sanding drum and slowly worked to the line.  It's not perfect, but I'm pleased with the result.


Looks good from here. . As popular as the 6sn7 rolling appears to be, Schiit should make these modified covers available. But of course, make them look like the stock one, only with the bigger hole.


----------



## ScubaMan2017 (Jun 11, 2019)

rgmffn said:


> Looks good from here. . As popular as the 6sn7 rolling appears to be, Schiit should make these modified covers available. But of course, make them look like the stock one, only with the bigger hole.


*I'd like that option*. 
Mind you, @Jason Stoddard commented on an older posting about having to be very careful about air vent placement, the number and diameter of holes (and I'm assuming offering chassis modifications). I can't find the exact post, but it was about how air vents are governed by either CSA-, UL-, CE-, EU- , or USA- electrical safety certification. _Some ding dong will find a way to slip their fingertips in the larger gap and grope the main board (unlike my Valhalla, I gather the voltages on the Vali are ~60V)_. 
Ah well. If I wanted that feature, I'd have to pick up a Lyr-3 without any extra expansion card (I suspect the sticker covering the expansion port actually has a metal plate under it... or the sticker's tamper-resistant... to prevent ding dongs [see above] from groping the main board).


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> *I'd like that option*.
> Mind you, @Jason Stoddard commented on an older posting about having to be very careful about air vent placement, the number and diameter of holes (and I'm assuming offering chassis modifications). I can't find the exact post, but it was about how air vents are governed by either CSA-, UL-, CE-, EU- , or USA- electrical safety certification. _Some ding dong will find a way to slip their fingertips in the larger gap and grope the main board (unlike my Valhalla, I gather the voltages on the Vali are ~60V)_.
> Ah well. If I wanted that feature, I'd have to pick up a Lyr-3 without any extra expansion card (I suspect the sticker covering the expansion port actually has a metal plate under it... or the sticker's tamper-resistant... to prevent ding dongs [see above] from groping the main board).



Is there a difference between groping and fondling?  Hope so, or I'm going to be very worried about @Ripper2860 .


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Beautiful!  Very nice.  Now all you need is a 6J5 or 7A4 adapter.


bochawa...... Your brother?


----------



## rgmffn

ScubaMan2017 said:


> *I'd like that option*.
> Mind you, @Jason Stoddard commented on an older posting about having to be very careful about air vent placement, the number and diameter of holes (and I'm assuming offering chassis modifications). I can't find the exact post, but it was about how air vents are governed by either CSA-, UL-, CE-, EU- , or USA- electrical safety certification. _Some ding dong will find a way to slip their fingertips in the larger gap and grope the main board (unlike my Valhalla, I gather the voltages on the Vali are ~60V)_.
> Ah well. If I wanted that feature, I'd have to pick up a Lyr-3 without any extra expansion card (I suspect the sticker covering the expansion port actually has a metal plate under it... or the sticker's tamper-resistant... to prevent ding dongs [see above] from groping the main board).


All good points. Never considered those.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> bochawa...... Your brother?



LOL!  No, not my brother. If he was, I'd have let him use this to cut the hole.


----------



## Ripper2860

Fondling occurs with good intent


bcowen said:


> Is there a difference between groping and fondling?  Hope so, or I'm going to be very worried about @Ripper2860 .



Fondling = Gentle, loving, caressing reflecting a positive and welcome act.

Groping =  Unwanted, vulgar and crass, bordering on a criminal act.

I fondle, but I cannot speak for you.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Fondling occurs with good intent
> 
> 
> Fondling = Gentle, loving, caressing reflecting a positive and welcome act.
> ...



It's a bit scary that you're so familiar with these two words....


----------



## Ripper2860

I plead the 5th...


----------



## Nastrahl (Jun 12, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> You seem to be going straight to the point: the twin separate triods. I went the slow, long way: ECC88 > PCC88 > 5670 > 6C8G > 6SN7 > twin 6J5. I recently thought that I should have done the same, but I put in the WE396A  yesterday, and liked it again... And then I was not a big believer in MELZ 6N8S until I tried it. Now I am eyeing the old Loctals...


 Hi,

Sorry for the late response, life got me a lot busy the last months.

Based on the very interesting comments here, because I'm still new to the audio world, I wanted to give it a try, especially when I read about the bass slam.

Unfortunately I'm a bit frustrated as it didn't go well.

Firstly I was very impressed by the strong U shaped sound signature, but after a few hours of settling-in it became more enjoyable then I understood why they are one of the many listener's favourites.

After some days, though, I started to hear electric noise like we do with an onboard audio card, which goes stronger and "metallic" if slip my finger on the surface of the amp's case or tap on it for exemple (on my desk too), with a noticeable and permanent 'uuum' noise from one ear.

When I switch off then on the Vali 2, it goes away for a bit, then comes back.

When I invert the tubes on the adapter, it switched ear; so I guess I get an issue with one of the matched pair tube.

For the time being my Magni 3 is back on business, with which I can't hear any parasitising noise from.


----------



## Paladin79

About the only thing that might help is re-flowing the solder in the pins on the troublesome tube. If that does no good you may want to try another matched pair. Some of these tubes are very old and occasionally tubes can fail. I have been really fortunate with NOS tubes but occasionally I will buy a used tube that may have tested good at some point before it was sold, but developed issues after listening several hours.


----------



## bcowen

Nastrahl said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sorry for the late response, life got me a lot busy the last months.
> 
> ...



Have you cleaned the pins on the tubes?  Sometimes dirt or oxidation on the pins can lead to a marginal electrical connection in the socket and that by itself can cause lots of different noise issues.


----------



## Nastrahl

bcowen said:


> Have you cleaned the pins on the tubes?  Sometimes dirt or oxidation on the pins can lead to a marginal electrical connection in the socket and that by itself can cause lots of different noise issues.



Nope, and I feel dumb that I didn't think about that.

Do you know with what I can safely use to clean them ?


----------



## bcowen

Nastrahl said:


> Nope, and I feel dumb that I didn't think about that.
> 
> Do you know with what I can safely use to clean them ?



DeOxit D5 works great on these. I usually spray the DeOxit on a pipe cleaner and use that to scrub the pins, then follow that with a pipe cleaner dipped in isopropyl alcohol to remove any remaining contaminants and DeOxit residue. If you don't have any DeOxit the isopropyl alcohol will work by itself, you may just need to rub a little harder.  Be sure to use straight up isopropyl alcohol and not 'rubbing' alcohol that has other ingredients in it.


----------



## Paladin79

I generally use a brass bristled brush and go over the pins before inserting them in a socket if they seem to need it. I have an inspection scope and look the pins over if they are suspect. I probably take cleaning for granted, thus I moved on to the last thing that might be done with some tubes, re-flowing solder in the pins.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

I have bought this:

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B074WNK917/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1





Works great.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I have bought this:
> 
> https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B074WNK917/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> ...



That's way cool.  I have a regular corded Dremel, but the battery powered type would be much more user friendly for this task.

I like these for polishing up the really cruddy pins. Fotons come to mind for some reason. 80 pieces would seem like overkill, but getting a smaller quantity doesn't save that much on the purchase price and these things shred off pretty fast -- 5 or 6 tubes is about the lifespan per piece (depending on crud level): 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GKXPQKQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Paladin79

That looks very handy, and portable no less. I generally use one of these when need be.

https://www.amazon.com/Dremel-4000-...words=taclife&qid=1560456336&s=gateway&sr=8-3

I have used Dremel for years.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> There are folks here who know more about the Fotons than me, I have a 1953 ribbed plate version that is sought after by most accounts and it sounds pretty good but I cannot make out exactly what you have there. If you can make out the date on yours to the lower right of the rhombus, that would help.


You are not good for my financial health. Listening to a perfectly sounding Foton from 1957. But not ribbed plate. So just bought two with ribbed plates made in 1951 for $50 a pair. I sincerely hope they sound better, than my current Foton tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> You are not good for my financial health. Listening to a perfectly sounding Foton from 1957. But not ribbed plate. So just bought two with ribbed plates made in 1951 for $50 a pair. I sincerely hope they sound better, than my current Foton tubes.



Sheeez.  Price has gone up on those puppies.  A year ago when I was hoarding collecting _investing_ in these, I think it was $35 or so....for two pairs.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> I think it was $35 or so....for two pairs.



Including shipping!!


----------



## Paladin79

I just got the 7n7 Philco Lansdale tubes and I will check them out tomorrow. I am more likely to use them in a Freya + but I will try them in the Vali 2 as well. Thanks for the tip on those tubes guys. 

Time to look for replacements for 6sn7's perhaps, I have not tried that a lot yet. I have done this with the Vali 2 so I guess I could quadruple the fun.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I just got the 7n7 Philco Lansdale tubes and I will check them out tomorrow. I am more likely to use them in a Freya + but I will try them in the Vali 2 as well. Thanks for the tip on those tubes guys.
> 
> Time to look for replacements for 6sn7's perhaps, I have not tried that a lot yet. I have done this with the Vali 2 so I guess I could quadruple the fun.



Be sure to give those Lansdales 100 hours of break in before you listen.

  Just kidding.  They sound pretty good right off the bat.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Including shipping!!



Geeez Ripper. I was trying to be nice and not make @Old Deaf Donkey feel all that bad. Way to rain on the parade...


----------



## Ripper2860

You're welcome.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Be sure to give those Lansdales 100 hours of break in before you listen.
> 
> Just kidding.  They sound pretty good right off the bat.


Yeah yeah, bla bla bla, whatever you say Bill. This will be the first tube I have ever listened to so your advice is certainly crucial. 

 Seriously though, I may have to look around for adapters that fit inside the openings in the Freya. I have had it like four days and I hate to start grinding and cutting on the case just in case I have to send it back for warranty. I believe it is called plausible deniability, not that I have ever had a reason to know that term in the past. I would try to grind down the adapter outsides but bakelite is not that pleasant smelling when it gets hot. Tray acrylic can be worse, I have some horror stories about that.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Geeez Ripper. I was trying to be nice and not make @Old Deaf Donkey feel all that bad. Way to rain on the parade...


Now, come on. I have a thick skin. Wait if these ribbed Fotons do not sound better, than non-ribbed, and the money is wasted. Then we'll see.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Now, come on. I have a thick skin. Wait if these ribbed Fotons do not sound better, than non-ribbed, and the money is wasted. Then we'll see.



Depends on what year you are comparing them to. If you're comparing to another 50's vintage, then yes they do sound better, but it's not like a revelation where the clouds part and the gates to heaven open before you.  If you're comparing to a 60's vintage, then those clouds will start parting, and the gates begin opening around '62 and go wide open starting in '65.    I believe 1956 was the last year of the ribbed plates (through '55 for sure, but I don't have any '56's to verify). 1957 - 1959 had the non-ribbed plates, and then something went all to hell in 1960 and got worse as time progressed.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Yeah yeah, bla bla bla, whatever you say Bill. This will be the first tube I have ever listened to so your advice is certainly crucial.



Always glad to help. Tom.  If I'm not available and it's something relatively simple, @Ripper2860 might be able to help too.


----------



## Ripper2860

Thanks, Bill.

Here you go, Tom (and others)

Ripper's Tips:

1. Make sure it's powered ON.
2. If it's ON and not working as expected, power it OFF and then back ON.
3. If issues persist, repeat steps 1 and 2 above.

OK.  Now that I've dispensed this invaluable knowledge, I feel a bit tired.  Time for a nap.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Thanks, Bill.
> 
> Here you go, Tom (and others)
> 
> ...



Wow. Nice!  Question though: how many times should step 3 be performed before seeking _knowledgeable_ help?


----------



## Ripper2860

Duh!! Until it fails to power ON as required in step 1, of course.  Geez, Bill -- get with the program!!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Always glad to help. Tom.  If I'm not available and it's something relatively simple, @Ripper2860 might be able to help too.



I will definitely take your advice on the ribbed Fotons because I do not want to buy two decades worth of them to see which ones sound different lol. Same holds true for Frankie tubes, I have a life and I cannot spend my time ruminating over such things. 

My life revolves around my turning wood and solder and copper into 17 year old bottles of single malt scotch. I believe it was Maxwell Maltz who said something along the lines of, you can only be truly happy when you are working towards a goal. My goals are well defined, and very simple.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Depends on what year you are comparing them to. If you're comparing to another 50's vintage, then yes they do sound better, but it's not like a revelation where the clouds part and the gates to heaven open before you.  If you're comparing to a 60's vintage, then those clouds will start parting, and the gates begin opening around '62 and go wide open starting in '65.    I believe 1956 was the last year of the ribbed plates (through '55 for sure, but I don't have any '56's to verify). 1957 - 1959 had the non-ribbed plates, and then something went all to hell in 1960 and got worse as time progressed.


Have 1957. Bought 1951


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Ripper2860 said:


> Duh!! Until it fails to power ON as required in step 1, of course.  Geez, Bill -- get with the program!!


what if it fails powering ON in step 1?


----------



## Ripper2860

Watch some old Matlock re-runs and try again later.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Watch some old Matlock re-runs and try again later.



Good advice.  Andy Griffith is from North Carolina.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Now, come on. I have a thick skin. Wait if these ribbed Fotons do not sound better, than non-ribbed, and the money is wasted. Then we'll see.



My experience with ribbed plate Fotons marked X-51 (October, 1951) was that even 100 hours didn't level out to a divine sound whilst atop the VH2. But that is not to say they don't sound great on the Vali 2. 

The 6SN7 experience on Valhalla 2 was less than enlightening, and now (based upon Ripper Wisdom) I am running a matched pair of new production Slovakian 12AU7 (ECC82) with a matched pair of JJ-Electronic ECC99 in place of the stock Russian 6N6P-- and I am willing to call this the Headphone Audio Nirvana I have long sought. 

My tube rolling is now only on Vali 2, and I have a lifetime supply of 6SN7 and ECC88 tubes to play with. Also, based upon concerns voiced by Ripper, I ordered four NOS Russian 6N6P tubes from Eastern Europe as back-up for the power tubes ($20 with shipping or $5 a tube).

I will be the first to admit, my 62-year old ears endured many rock concerts, hundreds of rounds on the pistol range, and both the starting line of NHRA Dragsters and the fourth turn of a NASCAR race with 40-very loud engines heading to start-finish line--so my hearing may no longer be able to discern nuanced or subtle differences. I heard my first Tube HP amp in December, so six months into Tube rolling has been enlightening, but my disposable funds for more tubes has effectively been shifted to other items in the audio budget, like an Aegir Class-A speaker amplifier, or maybe a Ragnarok 2.

Now the important question-- is it unusual to fondle and grope "older" tubes? They need loving...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ...I do not want to buy two decades worth of them to see which ones sound different lol.



Cheapskate.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> Now the important question-- is it unusual to fondle and grope "older" tubes? They need loving...



According to the info @Ripper2860 dispensed from intimate knowledge, groping is unacceptable regardless of vintage. Fondling only.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 14, 2019)

Here we go again.  Time to school the noobs ...

Federal law prevents discrimination based on age -- ergo fondling cannot be denied of an elderly or NOS tube based solely upon the tube's age.


(Whoa.  Throwing down this knowledge has me feeling a bit light-headed.  Time for another nap.)


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Good advice.  Andy Griffith is from North Carolina.



I am from North Carolina, and although both Andy and Barney shared sage wisdom-- I have found that if as first you don't succeed, get a larger hammer.
  And here is my home-made HP stand based on a design I have seen in the background of photos posted by @Paladin79. (Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery)

I used both a powered orbital sander to refinish the face of one of my lesser award plaques and a power drill to make the holes for the screws. I still have 10 fingers! I have since painted the screw heads black and sprayed the entire assembly with clear poly.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Cheapskate.


I might disagree with your findings on those particular tubes and suddenly you would begin to doubt the tube collection you have in your downstairs vault. You could end up living in a cardboard box clutching some GE tubes and mumbling to yourself. I would feel awful!!!! 

For five minutes, maybe six.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Do any of you actually name your tubes? My 1951 Ribbed Fotons is Tatyana and Svetlana to honor Soviet and Russian Cosmonauts Tatyana Kuznetsova and Svetlana Savitskaya. My 1957 Tung-Sols are Ethel and Lucy, to honor Lucille Ball and her female buddy. Then there are Chrome Dome, a chick with great Bass Slam for such a short envelope... Sovtek 6H8C is just called "Russkie" and the JJ-Electronic 6SN7 is called "Delicious". 

And why are Tubes given Female names, you might wonder, despite their clearly male shape? I have a mismatched pair of tall and short Tung Sol 6SN7 tubes I call "Felix and Oscar", as they are an "Odd Couple"... The rest are just nameless victims of Fondling


----------



## Ripper2860

No.  That's just weird.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I might disagree with your findings on those particular tubes and suddenly you would begin to doubt the tube collection you have in your downstairs vault.



No, I would just begin to doubt your hearing acuity.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> No.  That's just weird.



This is a first (and probably a last), but I have to agree with you.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> I am from North Carolina, and although both Andy and Barney shared sage wisdom-- I have found that if as first you don't succeed, get a larger hammer.  And here is my home-made HP stand based on a design I have seen in the background of photos posted by @Paladin79. (Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery)
> 
> I used both a powered orbital sander to refinish the face of one of my lesser award plaques and a power drill to make the holes for the screws. I still have 10 fingers! I have since painted the screw heads black and sprayed the entire assembly with clear poly.



Looks kind of, um, industrial?  Shiny though!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Here we go again.  Time to school the noobs ...
> 
> Federal law prevents discrimination based on age -- ergo fondling cannot be denied of an elderly or NOS tube based solely upon the tube's age.
> 
> ...



You don't read good.  I made no reference to age on fondling, only groping.  So even old people like you are safe when it comes to fondling.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Robert Padgett said:


> Do any of you actually name your tubes? My 1951 Ribbed Fotons is Tatyana and Svetlana to honor Soviet and Russian Cosmonauts Tatyana Kuznetsova and Svetlana Savitskaya. My 1957 Tung-Sols are Ethel and Lucy, to honor Lucille Ball and her female buddy. Then there are Chrome Dome, a chick with great Bass Slam for such a short envelope... Sovtek 6H8C is just called "Russkie" and the JJ-Electronic 6SN7 is called "Delicious".
> 
> And why are Tubes given Female names, you might wonder, despite their clearly male shape? I have a mismatched pair of tall and short Tung Sol 6SN7 tubes I call "Felix and Oscar", as they are an "Odd Couple"... The rest are just nameless victims of Fondling


 No fondling. My tubes are all male. I just drink with them.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> You don't read good.  I made no reference to age on fondling, only groping.  So even old people like you are safe when it comes to fondling.




A bit full of yourself there, buddy.  I know you think every post is directed at you, but sadly that one was not.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> A bit full of yourself there, buddy.  I know you think every post is directed at you, but sadly that one was not.



You mean every post _isn't_ directed at me?  Harrumph then...I'm takin' my ball and going home.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 14, 2019)

Well, if it makes you feel better the post you quoted above WAS directed at you.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, if it makes you feel better the post you quoted above WAS directed at you.



Sorry.  I already went home.  I'd be willing to rent you my ball though if you ask nicely.


----------



## Paladin79

Ok I tried the Lansdale 7n7's in the Vali 2 and then decided to put them in the Freya +.   As much as I hate to admit it, I love the bass and mid improvement. It somehow goes against nature to say Bill was right about something, but in this case I will give him credit, sort of, if I have to, I guess.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I tried the Lansdale 7n7's in the Vali 2 and then decided to put them in the Freya +.   As much as I hate to admit it, I love the bass and mid improvement. It somehow goes against nature to say Bill was right about something, but in this case I will give him credit, sort of, if I have to, I guess.


That is a "ringing" endorsement, Bill!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I tried the Lansdale 7n7's in the Vali 2 and then decided to put them in the Freya +.   As much as I hate to admit it, I love the bass and mid improvement. It somehow goes against nature to say Bill was right about something, but in this case I will give him credit, sort of, if I have to, I guess.



LOL!  I'm just happy to know your hearing is still intact.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I'm just happy to know your hearing is still intact.



It is intact but selective. This does not mean I will listen to you.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 15, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I tried the Lansdale 7n7's in the Vali 2 and then decided to put them in the Freya +.   As much as I hate to admit it, I love the bass and mid improvement. It somehow goes against nature to say Bill was right about something, but in this case I will give him credit, sort of, if I have to, I guess.



I'd give props to the tubes and MAYBE honorable mention to Bill.  We don't want his head so big he can't enter the forum, do we??  

You could say Bill was finally right about something, but I'll just go with...

 "Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn every now-and-then."


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I'd give props to the tubes and MAYBE honorable mention to Bill.  We don't want his head so big he can't enter the forum, do we??
> 
> You could say Bill was finally right about something, but I'll just go with...
> 
> "Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn every now-and-then."



The only thing was, I had to replace the other two tubes with the Melz 1578's to bring the treble back to an acceptable level. They should not make a lot of difference but they sure seemed to in this case. 

Maybe all Bill hears is bass so that is what he goes by, there is some kind of logic at play there, convoluted no doubt but logic none the less.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The only thing was, I had to replace the other two tubes with the Melz 1578's to bring the treble back to an acceptable level.



And let me see if I can remember who recommended the Melz.  Hmmmm…..

LOL!


----------



## Ripper2860

A broken clock is right twice a day...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'd give props to the tubes and MAYBE honorable mention to Bill.  We don't want his head so big he can't enter the forum, do we??
> 
> You could say Bill was finally right about something, but I'll just go with...
> 
> "Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn every now-and-then."



I'm much happier finding acorns than nuts.  Of course, even a blind squirrel would be up to his ankles in those around here...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> A broken clock is right twice a day...



I have a broken GE clock. I'll make you a special deal on it.  Plus shipping.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> And let me see if I can remember who recommended the Melz.  Hmmmm…..
> 
> LOL!



OMG, that was two things Bill was semi accurate about!!

As I recall he mentioned the Melz and others  took a chance on them and offered Bill an out if he did not like them.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> OMG, that was two things Bill was semi accurate about!!
> 
> As I recall he mentioned the Melz and others  took a chance on them and offered Bill an out if he did not like them.




It was ripper2860 who first published the photo which explained the critical difference between the mica ledge, that denoted a "Real 1578" as opposed the "other" holey Melz which were pretenders to the throne.


----------



## HellooooThar

Howdy guys!

Due to some circumstances (namely I came in to a pair of HE5 SE) I am selling my HE 400is. I will be posting them over in the for sale listings, but I thought I would give y'all a crack at them first since I think I am cutting a pretty good deal. Asking $120 + shipping. I am a little negotiable on that, and willing to throw in a pair of 6DJ8s from Herleen which I particularly liked with them. PM me if there is interest! I have all of the original boxes (even the one they were imported in) and the 'phones are in great shape.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jun 18, 2019)

For a week, two Sylvania JAN VT-192 (7A4), made in 1945, stay in my Vali 2.




I am trying everything else I have. Nothing matches these two tubes. Not MELZ, not RCA grey glass, not Tung-Sol mouse ears, not Russian 6S2S from 1954. They just sound real. Enormous 3D and precise soundstage, natural tonal balance, incredible detail of resolution, but most of all - this feeling of reality. I am throwing all kinds of music at them. Same thing - perfect rendering. Maybe it is just me. My tube tester has arrived to Brussels,so I can test my stash of used 6SN7 and 6C8G. Then, we'll see.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 18, 2019)

Very cool and I like those tubes myself. I give Bill credit for referencing certain tubes but I figured out the 7A4's on my own. That is not to say that others have not used them in the past, I just know I came across them in my tube manuals and began ordering them as the loctal version of the 6J5 without borrowing the idea. 6sn7's have shielding to prevent crosstalk since you are housing two triodes in the same tube. It made sense to me to go the single and separate triode route. With my first listening, it was reminding me of binaural recordings, the separation and airiness. I also liked the price of some of the less sought after tubes.

I like some versions of the Sylvania 6j5's, and it took me a while to find the overall SQ of really good 6sn7's but when you get that, and the separation, it is not always an easy thing to explain to someone who has not heard it yet.

Do the same thing with a DAC as well as amp and the effect can be very impressive. I can probably set up a dozen headphone amp-DAC combinations but nothing that sounds like this setup, for anywhere close to similar money.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I give Bill credit for referencing certain tubes...



I'm OK.  Really.  Even after just falling out of my chair.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 19, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I'm OK.  Really.  Even after just falling out of my chair.


I like to give credit where credit is due. You came up with Melz and Foton information. Now of course you might have borrowed it from someone else but that is beside the point.

Behave!  This was just one of my many experiments. It works perfectly well though, two single triode tubes with the same filament current as the 6sn7 once you add them together. When you separate things you tend to get better results, consider a receiver compared to separate tuner, pre-amp and amp. That is my logic and I am sticking to it.


----------



## bochawa

I just placed an order for a dual 7A4 to 6SN7 adapter.  You guys are the worst.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bochawa said:


> I just placed an order for a dual 7A4 to 6SN7 adapter.  You guys are the worst.


Is this what circular economy is about?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> When you separate things you tend to get better results


 I think there was a mention of someone in this thread, who perfected this principle, separating the glass bulb from the rest of the tube. I wonder about the resulting clarity and sound stage


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I think there was a mention of someone in this thread, who perfected this principle, separating the glass bulb from the rest of the tube. I wonder about the resulting clarity and sound stage


Shattering the glass envelope on a Tung-Sol Mouse-ears 6SN7GT did not improve either the sonic qualities or the overall operational integrity. It was on display until the recent clean-up to serve as a reminder that Gravity is the Valve's worst nightmare, especially a three-foot drop.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 19, 2019)

bochawa said:


> I just placed an order for a dual 7A4 to 6SN7 adapter.  You guys are the worst.



Then you should be on the lookout for a matched pair of these...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SYLVANIA-J...620487?hash=item3ad9967947:g:opIAAOSw9GhYmPpU

There are plenty of 7A4's on Ebay as well but I have a fondness for the military version, VT-192's,  as seems to be the case with @Old Deaf Donkey 

You can only be truly happy when you are working towards a goal, and this one is short term and offers some wonderful audio results. IMHO

We just have to hope @bcowen does not take an interest in these tubes and starts buying them up.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm thinking about buying a dual tube adapter and tube umbilical cords that will allow me to place one 7A4 in the front office and the other in my back bedroom of my home for even further separation and improved sound-stage.  Does anyone have a link to 150' 8-pin tube extension cables?


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm thinking about buying a dual tube adapter and tube umbilical cords that will allow me to place one 7A4 in the front office and the other in my back bedroom of my home for even further separation and improved sound-stage.  Does anyone have a link to 150' 8-pin tube extension cables?



I can build you one by 9 am tomorrow morning. Price is no object right?

Seriously though, two triodes enclosed in the same glass structure make sense but shielding is required for obvious reasons.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm thinking about buying a dual tube adapter and tube umbilical cords that will allow me to place one 7A4 in the front office and the other in my back bedroom of my home for even further separation and improved sound-stage.  Does anyone have a link to 150' 8-pin tube extension cables?


In my experience, this only works with increasing the distance beween the ears. no need for long cables, but takes time to stretch the auricles.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm kidding.  Separately housed triodes in their own tubes makes perfect sense.  No matter how well the shielding, x-talk will still be present due to the proximity of the triodes on a dual triode tube.  2x single triode tubes having better soundstage and presentation just makes sense.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 19, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> In my experience, this only works with increasing the distance beween the ears. no need for long cables, but takes time to stretch the auricles.



Well, my head does tend to swell when complimented, so I'll test your theory by having the wife compliment me on my sexual prowess and then listen to my Lyr 3 with 1x dual triode tube installed.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, my head does tend to swell when complimented, so I'll test your theory by having the wife compliment me on my sexual prowess and then listen to my Lyr 3 with 1x dual triode tube installed.


"but takes time to stretch the auricles"


----------



## Ripper2860

Robert Padgett said:


> "but takes time to stretch the auricles"



Would that be the Auricles of Impeachment?


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> Would that be the Auricles of Impeachment?


No, more like ,"Stop, Honey, I think I stretched my Auricles..."


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Ripper2860 said:


> Would that be the Auricles of Impeachment?


Not sure. Pinnae, in Latin. Donkey ears, when properly stretched


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Not sure. Pinnae, in Latin. Donkey ears, when properly stretched



Very good, and you used the plural of pinna.


----------



## bochawa

Paladin79 said:


> Then you should be on the lookout for a matched pair of these...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/SYLVANIA-J...620487?hash=item3ad9967947:g:opIAAOSw9GhYmPpU
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice - I will be on the lookout.  In the meantime, I might try for one of the matched pairs currently on eBay.


----------



## StageOne

Lots of money being spent on tubes for a Vali2.  Try a couple cheap tubes like the GE 5670W with an adapter for $10-15 and call it a day.  It's a fantastic amp and I love mine but don't go overboard.  That tube has great mids and decent airy treble, much better than the stock tube and quite affordable.


----------



## Paladin79

StageOne said:


> Lots of money being spent on tubes for a Vali 2.  Try a couple cheap tubes like the GE 5670W with an adapter for $10-15 and call it a day.  It's a fantastic amp and I love mine but don't go overboard.  That tube has great mids and decent airy treble, much better than the stock tube and quite affordable.




The Vali 2 is just a starting point for me, I get plenty of use out of the same tubes in other amps. Change enough tubes and the Vali sounds less like a $100-$150 amp.


----------



## StageOne

Paladin79 said:


> The Vali 2 is just a starting point for me, I get plenty of use out of the same tubes in other amps. Change enough tubes and the Vali sounds less like a $100-$150 amp.



Nothing wrong with trying tubes, I'd just recommend not going crazy and spending $50+ on a tube trying to make it sound like a TOTL amp.  Roll a few tubes if you want, but I think the mCTH is a more resolving, airy, amp for not much more investment.  I enjoy Schiit products and have more that I'd care to count but they all have limits.  Be smart.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

StageOne said:


> Nothing wrong with trying tubes, I'd just recommend not going crazy and spending $50+ on a tube trying to make it sound like a TOTL amp.  Roll a few tubes if you want, but I think the mCTH is a more resolving, airy, amp for not much more investment.  I enjoy Schiit products and have more that I'd care to count but they all have limits.  Be smart.


The Gospel - and Praise be, of course. It is good to be an Old, Deaf Donkey - I do not need to be smart. I have already spent $2,000 on the tubes for Vali 2, and keep having immense pleasure in exploring further. I am also pleased to learn that - unlike Schiit products - Massdrop stuff does not have limits .


Paladin79 said:


> Very good, and you used the plural of pinna.


Plural - you need at least TWO ears for the soundstage and separation, of course


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 20, 2019)

StageOne said:


> Nothing wrong with trying tubes, I'd just recommend not going crazy and spending $50+ on a tube trying to make it sound like a TOTL amp.  Roll a few tubes if you want, but I think the mCTH is a more resolving, airy, amp for not much more investment.  I enjoy Schiit products and have more that I'd care to count but they all have limits.  Be smart.




 Not everyone has the means or desire to try some of the harder to find or more expensive tubes so you should do what fits your needs. If you are happy with GE tubes, more power to you. My background is in electronics and science but much of my later education was in business. Right now with market fluctuations I am lucky to earn between 12% and 20% on investments so tubes have an interest to me. The older American tubes are getting harder and harder to find as are some of the sought after Russian tubes so I buy multiples and put many of them away as an investment. This is not for everyone, but it is what I like to do. Now this is a thread about tube rolling and there are plenty of inexpensive tubes mentioned along with some that cost between $50 and $300 each. One should do what fits their budget and SQ beliefs I suppose. Some of the dual tube setups are not expensive compared to buying say a Melz 1578 or a Sylvania bad boy 6sn7 or whatever and using single triodes brings about a fairly large change IMHO. Now @Old Deaf Donkey has some advantages I do not have, he has made some purchases in Europe for prices that I greatly envy. His $2,000 investment may have cost me $3,000 or more so all things are certainly relative.

It makes perfect sense to me not to pay more for a tube than the Vali 2 costs and if that is your only tube amp, I wholeheartedly agree. Now to think it cannot sound any better with this tube or that is getting into a subjective area so certainly YMMV.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jun 20, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Now to think it cannot sound any better with this tube or that is getting into a subjective area so certainly YMMV.


Is that not the whole point? Trying to relate quality of sound to spending on one or other component, and even more so to the ratio of cost of one component against the other, does not make a lot of sense to me. If I am happy with $200 (or $2) tube in $150 amp, how is this "going crazy"? Or, without any tube at all? You remember the story of Paganini and breaking strings, do you not?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 20, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Is that not the whole point? Trying to relate quality of sound to spending on one or other component, and even more so to the ratio of cost of one component against the other, does not make a lot of sense to me. If I am happy with $200 (or $2) tube in $150 amp, how is this "going crazy"? Or, without any tube at all? You remember the story of Paganini and breaking strings, do you not?



I am on your side on this. See to me, I notice more difference in changing the single tube in a Vali than I might by changing four tubes in other amps or pre-amp. At times there are reasons specific tubes or combinations are sought after and unless you have experienced them how could you possibly know?  I am pragmatic so in my case a Vali is just a starting point for a tube I buy that might end up being used in a different amp or pre-amp, or it might be stored away till the value appreciates.

 You know what the Vali 2 sounds like with the VT-192 set of tubes as do I so we know what is possible, I try to stay open minded about such things. It is not my intent to convince others what they should buy or how a specific set up might sound to them.

Good analogy about Paganini by the way.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> ...x-talk will still be present...



X-talk is for losers. Real men go for xxx-talk.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> We just have to hope @bcowen does not take an interest in these tubes and starts buying them up.



Too late.

Although to be honest I *am* struggling to warm up to them. I may have just not obtained the right ones yet. Seems I always need to buy at least a hundred of any particular type before I find the version I like.   Glad I'm not anal.


----------



## bcowen

StageOne said:


> Lots of money being spent on tubes for a Vali2.  Try a couple cheap tubes like the GE 5670W with an adapter for $10-15 and call it a day.  It's a fantastic amp and I love mine but don't go overboard.  That tube has great mids and decent airy treble, much better than the stock tube and quite affordable.



Of _*any*_ tube I'd recommend for the Vali 2 a GE 5670 would NOT be it. Sorry. Beyond the fact it was one of the few tubes that was actually made by GE, it's one of the worst sounding 2C51 / 5670 / 396A variants around.  Try a Sylvania, WE, Tung-Sol, Tesla...any of them make the GE 5670W sound like fingernails on a chalkboard.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Of _*any*_ tube I'd recommend for the Vali 2 a GE 5670 would NOT be it. Sorry. Beyond the fact it was one of the few tubes that was actually made by GE, it's one of the worst sounding 2C51 / 5670 / 396A variants around.  Try a Sylvania, WE, Tung-Sol, Tesla...any of them make the GE 5670W sound like fingernails on a chalkboard.


I wish you would not beat around the bush and say what you really think about GE tubes Bill.


----------



## Ripper2860

@bcowen -- I was wondering how long before you stumbled upon that post.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Of _*any*_ tube I'd recommend for the Vali 2 a GE 5670 would NOT be it. Sorry. Beyond the fact it was one of the few tubes that was actually made by GE, it's one of the worst sounding 2C51 / 5670 / 396A variants around.  Try a Sylvania, WE, Tung-Sol, Tesla...any of them make the GE 5670W sound like fingernails on a chalkboard.


I have several 5670 tubes and indeed GE 5670W is blandest among them, WE396A sounds the best to me in Vali 2 on both K702 and HE400i.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I have several 5670 tubes and indeed GE 5670W is blandest among them, WE396A sounds the best to me in Vali 2 on both K702 and HE400i.



Except for some 6080 power tubes I have not used a lot of GE tubes. I would have to check my bulk tubes to see if I even own any 5670's.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I wish you would not beat around the bush and say what you really think about GE tubes Bill.



Well I tried, but my post ended up looking like this after the forum software got done with it:

" ****  ****  **** **** **** **** **** "  
I knew what it meant, but figured it would be hard for most everyone else to decipher.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Except for some 6080 power tubes I have not used a lot of GE tubes. I would have to check my bulk tubes to see if I even own any 5670's.



I will admit there is one GE tube I actually liked:  a big 'ol monster 211 power tube.  I never did any research on it though, so it's possible it was made by RCA (who was the main player with that tube type back in their day) and just branded for GE.


----------



## Robert Padgett (Jun 21, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Of _*any*_ tube I'd recommend for the Vali 2 a GE 5670 would NOT be it. Sorry. Beyond the fact it was one of the few tubes that was actually made by GE, it's one of the worst sounding 2C51 / 5670 / 396A variants around.  Try a Sylvania, WE, Tung-Sol, Tesla...any of them make the GE 5670W sound like fingernails on a chalkboard.




Bill, I am curious--if GE Tubes are so bad, why is it that I have not already bought a whole bucket of them. I typically invest heavily in tubes which I later find out are not the ones I should have bought. The folks at Vivatubes.com must agree with your assessment (And what almost hooked me several times) they seem to sell for a fraction of the rest--even the NOS NIB one is cheaper.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> Bill, I am curious--if GE Tubes are so bad, why is it that I have not already bought a whole bucket of them. I typically invest heavily in tubes which I later find out are not the ones I should have bought. The folks at Vivatubes.com must agree with your assessment (And what almost hooked me several times) they seem to sell for a fraction of the rest--even the NOS NIB one is cheaper.



Robert, I'm very sorry but I cannot come up with a reasonable retort to your question.  Perhaps you're not dredging far enough down to the very bottom of the bucket?  

I think (and this is just my opinion), but the reason most GE tubes are so cheap is because everyone knows they suck and nobody wants them. LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I will admit there is one GE tube I actually liked:  a big 'ol monster 211 power tube.  I never did any research on it though, so it's possible it was made by RCA (who was the main player with that tube type back in their day) and just branded for GE.



You will come around, maybe one GE tube at a time. I used a bunch in headphone stands without testing them first but they were tubes I would never use for other purposes anyway.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well I tried, but my post ended up looking like this after the forum software got done with it:
> 
> " ****  ****  **** **** **** **** **** "
> I knew what it meant, but figured it would be hard for most everyone else to decipher.



You may well have a total lack of social graces but at least you are consistent @bcowen, I will give you that.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> You will come around, maybe one GE tube at a time. I used a bunch in headphone stands without testing them first but they were tubes I would never use for other purposes anyway.



I think Bill is a wood-pile descendant of the Tesla family and we all know they've had an ax to grind with Thomas Edison since the whole AC vs DC thing.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You may well have a total lack of social graces but at least you are consistent @bcowen, I will give you that.



Huh?  I was voted "Most Likely To Repulse Friends and Negatively Influence People" in my high school yearbook.  Of course that was 75 years ago, so perhaps I've changed since then. Or not.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I think Bill is a wood-pile descendant of the Tesla family and we all know they've had an ax to grind with Thomas Edison since the whole AC vs DC thing.



I love AC/DC.  Second, of course, to Marilyn Manson.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You will come around, maybe one GE tube at a time. I used a bunch in headphone stands without testing them first but they were tubes I would never use for other purposes anyway.



I think headphone stands are the best use ever created for GE tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I love AC/DC.  Second, of course, to Marilyn Manson.



Ok some of your tube advice is starting to make more sense now, your musical tastes are um, interesting?


----------



## bochawa

I bought the Vali 2 b-stock for $99.  First added the GE 5670W + adapter (~$20), then recently the Tung-Sol 6SN7 + adapter (~$40).  Currently awaiting delivery of Sylvania 7A4 XXL's + adapter (~$75).  Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bochawa said:


> I bought the Vali 2 b-stock for $99.  First added the GE 5670W + adapter (~$20), then recently the Tung-Sol 6SN7 + adapter (~$40).  Currently awaiting delivery of Sylvania 7A4 XXL's + adapter (~$75).  Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.


It is really a good showcase for different tubes. I roll one in for a day or two and trade it in, and its like a whole new amplifier with the "new" tube. I have a 1951ribbed plate Foton which was never better than so-so in a matched pair on the VH2, but it is a sweet sounding tube on the Vali 2. Go Figure.


----------



## Paladin79

bochawa said:


> I bought the Vali 2 b-stock for $99.  First added the GE 5670W + adapter (~$20), then recently the Tung-Sol 6SN7 + adapter (~$40).  Currently awaiting delivery of Sylvania 7A4 XXL's + adapter (~$75).  Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.



I am curious how well you like the 7A4's, the adapter can take a while to arrive if ordered out of China so it could be a couple weeks.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok some of your tube advice is starting to make more sense now, your musical tastes are um, interesting?



I prefer 'eclectic,' but 'interesting' is acceptable.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

This is a report of a rather happy man, who sits listening to Schubert's Forellenquintett on his Vali 2, with CBS 5692 6SN7 tube in it, drinking Le Petit Xavier - a poor man's good claret from Courthézon in Vaucluse. 

My tube tester arrived yesterday, fully functional. Now I can buy all crap I find safely. So I went through all the 6SN7 and 6C8  tubes i had bought recently. Not 1 dud. Listened to dual 6J5 Sylvanias, metal bottles. Found them very nice, but just a shade lacking, compared to dual 7A4 VT-192 Sylvanias, which remained my Holy Grail for now. 

Also tried Mullard ECC82 - perhaps the most likeable Noval I have.

The 5692 is easily among 5 best 6SN7 that I have, along with RCA 6SN7GT Grey Glass, Tung Sol Mouse ears (I have three slighty different tubes), and MELZ 6H8C, black holed plates. Yet so many to try now, that I know they are all good. Nice times  awaiting me. And still Frankentubes and Fotons on the way...

A good weekend to all.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 21, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> This is a report of a rather happy man, who sits listening to Schubert's Forellenquintett on his Vali 2, with CBS 5692 6SN7 tube in it, drinking Le Petit Xavier - a poor man's good claret from Courthézon in Vaucluse.
> 
> My tube tester arrived yesterday, fully functional. Now I can buy all crap I find safely. So I went through all the 6SN7 and 6C8  tubes i had bought recently. Not 1 dud. Listened to dual 6J5 Sylvanias, metal bottles. Found them very nice, but just a shade lacking, compared to dual 7A4 VT-192 Sylvanias, which remained my Holy Grail for now.
> 
> ...



I will concur that the 7A4 VT-192 is the holy grail if for no other reason than to annoy Bill. He is going to have to try them or lose sleep at night till he does. 

PS I have all the tubes you mentioned except my metal can 6j5's are made by RCA. I also have a lot of Sylvania 6j5's as well as some National Unions as I recall.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I have all the tubes you mentioned except my metal can 6j5's are made by RCA. I also have a lot of Sylvania 6j5's as well as some National Unions as I recall.


No big wonder. I am stumbling along the footprints left by you and a couple of other guys in this thread. You have been very generous in guiding me and others.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I will concur that the 7A4 VT-192 is the holy grail if for no other reason than to annoy Bill. He is going to have to try them or lose sleep at night till he does.



Yeah, well, um, sure OK then, fine and dandy.  Just wait until I finish building the adapter for this.  A new paradigm for annoyance.  By my calculations, the Lyr 3 will handle the 1.8 amps of filament current for 59 seconds before melting. But that (almost) minute will be stuff that legends are made of.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yeah, well, um, sure OK then, fine and dandy.  Just wait until I finish building the adapter for this.  A new paradigm for annoyance.  By my calculations, the Lyr 3 will handle the 1.8 amps of filament current for 59 seconds before melting. But that (almost) minute will be stuff that legends are made of.



I think that is a wonderful idea!  Use the Lyr 3 as a slow blowing fuse, be sure and get a video.  You may not get your 15 minutes of fame by doing this but several seconds could be allotted to you I would think. 

I have a lot of choices for the Vali but I went back to the VT-192's for a while, an exceptional tube match for the amp IMHO.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> No big wonder. I am stumbling along the footprints left by you and a couple of other guys in this thread. You have been very generous in guiding me and others.



You are most kind ODD. You might want to be careful following Bill's footprints, I suspect one of his legs is longer than the other and he will lead you in circles, but that is just a theory. Well grounded as it might be, it is still just a theory.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have a lot of choices for the Vali but I went back to the VT-192's for a while, an exceptional tube match for the amp IMHO.



I see what you did there.  But since I already took my anti-annoy pill this morning, I'm merely amused.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You are most kind ODD. You might want to be careful following Bill's footprints, I suspect one of his legs is longer than the other and he will lead you in circles...



LOL!  At least I always know where I'm going to end up.


----------



## bcowen

Quiz of the day.  Just for fun (and to preclude more 7A4 posts )  who can guess what's shown in the 1st photo and the orange thingies in the 2nd photo? Answering "tube" for the first one or "capacitor" for the second one don't count.  The winner will receive one free GE 12AU7 tube. NOS. (to be fair though the difference between a NOS and DOS (Dead Old Stock) GE tube is probably not discernable audibly).


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> Quiz of the day.  Just for fun (and to preclude more 7A4 posts )  who can guess what's shown in the 1st photo and the orange thingies in the 2nd photo? Answering "tube" for the first one or "capacitor" for the second one don't count.  The winner will receive one free GE 12AU7 tube. NOS. (to be fair though the difference between a NOS and DOS (Dead Old Stock) GE tube is probably not discernable audibly).


I don't know what the first one is but I think the second is a surge suppressor.


----------



## bochawa

Paladin79 said:


> I am curious how well you like the 7A4's, the adapter can take a while to arrive if ordered out of China so it could be a couple weeks.


I'm curious, too - with all the previous comments about separation and soundstage improvement.  I'm expecting the adapter to show up in mid-July - tracking shows it's still in China.


----------



## Robert Padgett

No clue, but it is always good to keep us tube-heads on notice. I suspect that the first tube is a single triode.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I think that is a wonderful idea!  Use the Lyr 3 as a slow blowing fuse, be sure and get a video.  You may not get your 15 minutes of fame by doing this but several seconds could be allotted to you I would think.
> 
> I have a lot of choices for the Vali but I went back to the VT-192's for a while, an exceptional tube match for the amp IMHO.


I am going through my variants of 6SN7 and 6C8. Brimar/Mullard 6SN7 comes close, yet not the same as VT-192. I have just listened to Vivaldi's Filiae Maestae Jerusalem with Philippe Jaroussky. No other tube I know renders this piece so beautifully, try Sileant Zephyri, the spiccato of strings and that countertenor. or Natalie Stutzmann with Orfeo 55, doing Bach's Erbarme Dich. I wonder what you will think of CBS 7A4 which are finally on their way.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Quiz of the day.  Just for fun (and to preclude more 7A4 posts )  who can guess what's shown in the 1st photo and the orange thingies in the 2nd photo? Answering "tube" for the first one or "capacitor" for the second one don't count.  The winner will receive one free GE 12AU7 tube. NOS. (to be fair though the difference between a NOS and DOS (Dead Old Stock) GE tube is probably not discernable audibly).


Incandescent light bulb is my guess for the first


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> This is a report of a rather happy man, who sits listening to Schubert's Forellenquintett on his Vali 2, with CBS 5692 6SN7 tube in it, drinking Le Petit Xavier - a poor man's good claret from Courthézon in Vaucluse.
> 
> My tube tester arrived yesterday, fully functional. Now I can buy all crap I find safely. So I went through all the 6SN7 and 6C8  tubes i had bought recently. Not 1 dud. Listened to dual 6J5 Sylvanias, metal bottles. Found them very nice, but just a shade lacking, compared to dual 7A4 VT-192 Sylvanias, which remained my Holy Grail for now.
> 
> ...


God gave me another present today. I was getting somewhat tired of rather good 6SN7 and 6C8 today (I will report once I have gotten trough all of them). So, I thought I'd check out my 6922 for comparison - I have not listened to them for a long time. First, I was shocked as the music is the same and it almost seems to sound the same as on the other tubes: Reflector 6N23P is somehwat dull, but EH 6922 is almost OK, is it not? Something strange. 

Then I put in the VT-192 Sylvanias back in... Oh yeah. It is the same music, sure enough. But now different people are performing, with better insttruments, in the rooms of excellent acoustics, and, oh Lord, there is SPACE and COLOURS! So there IS difference among the tubes. I relaxed. 

And then I remembered that in the same old Brussels storage I also picked up a Tungsram ECC88 - 6DJ8 NOS NIB. So I put it in my Vali 2. And it is still there. I am sitting with a bunch of grapes, a piece of old French camembert, and bottle of decent claret from Bordeaux (Chateau Haut-Mondain 2015), K702 on my ears, listening to a badly mastered record of David Oistrakh playing Bach, Concerto no.1 with Moscow chamber, because this tube somehow has opened even this recording, and I finally hear David's Stradivarius, 1705 Marsick, sing. All my other music sings on this tube, too. Finally, a 6DJ8 worth listening to.  

I checked pictures of other Tungsram ECC88 on the Web and could not find a similar one. Even the logo is different on the tube I have - although the blue/red box is the same. It also has an UFO top getter - an almost sure sign of a Soviet made tube. But the sound, people, the sound. I will listen more to it, and the describe the sonic signature. Maybe tomorrow it will sound like crap to me. 

 And no, it is not better, than VT-192. Different. Yet so beautiful and engaging today.


----------



## Paladin79

You had me worried for a minute there lol. The VT-192’s are still the holy grail!


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> God gave me another present today. I was getting somewhat tired of rather good 6SN7 and 6C8 today (I will report once I have gotten trough all of them). So, I thought I'd check out my 6922 for comparison - I have not listened to them for a long time. First, I was shocked as the music is the same and it almost seems to sound the same as on the other tubes: Reflector 6N23P is somehwat dull, but EH 6922 is almost OK, is it not? Something strange.
> 
> Then I put in the VT-192 Sylvanias back in... Oh yeah. It is the same music, sure enough. But now different people are performing, with better insttruments, in the rooms of excellent acoustics, and, oh Lord, there is SPACE and COLOURS! So there IS difference among the tubes. I relaxed.
> 
> ...



Those Tungsrams look anything like these?  Really nice tubes (IMO) in the right component. Glorious in Cary gear, but not my fave in Art Audio pieces. Of course, they sound like a broken GE compared to a VT-192.


----------



## bcowen

bcowen said:


> Quiz of the day.  Just for fun (and to preclude more 7A4 posts )  who can guess what's shown in the 1st photo and the orange thingies in the 2nd photo? Answering "tube" for the first one or "capacitor" for the second one don't count.  The winner will receive one free GE 12AU7 tube. NOS. (to be fair though the difference between a NOS and DOS (Dead Old Stock) GE tube is probably not discernable audibly).



Appears the GE 12AU7 will have to stick around for another contest.   The tube?  It's an Amperite 5H-12 -- a ballast tube. I had never seen one of these before, and after reading a bit it acts as basically a voltage regulator. Pre-silicon, obviously. And the yellow thingies?  Another one that made me scratch my head. Selenium rectifiers. Have never seen any in that shape or configuration, and I could not find specs for them anywhere. Could not get any reading through a diode check with my Fluke, no capacitance reading with my cap meter, but I could get a resistance reading -- in one direction only. That in itself was pretty strange, but it gave me a clue where to start looking. One read 12 megohms, the other 1.2 megohms, even though they were identically marked pieces. So one or both were crap. Both the tube and the rectifiers went in the Weston 981 that finally sprang to life today. Broken octal socket (replaced with a nice NOS Cinch), two totally dead 20 uF caps, and 2 bad resistors. But now she's singing. Right on the money calibration-wise.  I still love my Hickok, but it's awful tempting to keep this as a backup.  Well, actually a backup for the backup for the backup, but who's counting?


----------



## triggsviola




----------



## Keno18

triggsviola said:


>


Nice, but slightly disproportionate.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Those Tungsrams look anything like these?  Really nice tubes (IMO) in the right component. Glorious in Cary gear, but not my fave in Art Audio pieces. Of course, they sound like a broken GE compared to a VT-192.


That's how it looks:

  

Extremely high resolution and definition, fast dynamics, wide, deep and precise soundstage, balanced and rich tonality, well defined at all frequencies, Also rather analytical and revealing the detail, but not annoyingly so.

I remembered also my praise for dual RCA Radiotron 6J5. So I put them in for comparison with dual Sylvania VT-192. Need more time, different soundstages and different sound signatures, but both damn good...

So, for now, my top array is (not in particular order): dual Sylvania VT-192, dual RCA 6J5, Brimar/Mullard 6SN7, and Tungsram 6DJ8.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 23, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Those Tungsrams look anything like these? Really nice tubes (IMO) in the right component. Glorious in Cary gear, but not my fave in Art Audio pieces. Of course, they sound like a broken GE compared to a VT-192



It is nice to see that @bcowen realizes the greatness of a particular set of tubes, there is hope for him yet.  I will soon have a similar set so I can run a pair in a DAC feeding the Vali 2, right now I make due with some Sylvaina 6j5's I have dubbed the naughty girls, they share many of the same features as Sylvania Bad Boy 6sn7's and they are my second favorite set of single triode tubes. They are not quite the holy grail, perhaps just a silver chalice, making GE tubes more like the paper cup of the 6sn7 world.

ODD you must try Sylvania 6j5's if you have not yet. Three hole black plate, bottom getter. This photo is not the best but these tubes are still out there and not very expensive.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> ODD you must try Sylvania 6j5's if you have not yet. Three hole black plate, bottom getter. This photo is not the best but these tubes are still out there and not very expensive.



I do have them, and I don't. The problem is I bought two Sylvania 6J5, metal bases, separately. Their plates and micas are different: one is 3 holes, round center plate, another one two hole, black ladder plate. I risked putting them in now, and they sound gorgeous. Not a clean solution, though...


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I do have them, and I don't. The problem is I bought two Sylvania 6J5, metal bases, separately. Their plates and micas are different: one is 3 holes, round center plate, another one two hole, black ladder plate. I risked putting them in now, and they sound gorgeous. Not a clean solution, though...


I tried a lot of Sylvania pairs before I got to my favorites, all sounded good. Eventually I got to what I considered as great.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I tried a lot of Sylvania pairs before I got to my favorites, all sounded good. Eventually I got to what I considered as great.


Tom, I do not have a pair. I have one of each tube: both Sylvania metal base, but totally different types of mica and plate in each of the tubes.


----------



## bcowen (Jun 23, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> It is nice to see that @bcowen realizes the greatness of a particular set of tubes, there is hope for him yet.



While hope for me is questionable at best and of inordinate optimism, I did just spring for these.  

Yeah, I know they're not VT-192's. Already have a pair of those that are quite nice, but for whatever reason have not inspired me to kneel at the altar of the tube gods. So I'll try a different flavor and see what happens. That, and I think I have a DNA mutation that results in obsessive hoarding collecting of $6 tubes.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> While hope for me is questionable at best and of inordinate optimism, I did just spring for these.
> 
> Yeah, I know they're not VT-192's. Already have a pair of those that are quite nice, but for whatever reason have not inspired me to kneel at the altar of the tube gods. So I'll try a different flavor and see what happens. That, and I think I have a DNA mutation that results in obsessive hoarding collecting of $6 tubes.


Interesting what you and @Paladin79 will have to say about them. I bought 16 NOS NIB of them, CBS-branded, $4 apiece.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Interesting what you and @Paladin79 will have to say about them. I bought 16 NOS NIB of them, CBS-branded, $4 apiece.



You mean I overpaid?  

But wait....mine are Hytron branded.  That's 3 more letters than CBS, so I only paid $1.20 per letter, and you paid $1.33 per letter.  Whew.  I feel better now.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You mean I overpaid?
> 
> But wait....mine are Hytron branded.  That's 3 more letters than CBS, so I only paid $1.20 per letter, and you paid $1.33 per letter.  Whew.  I feel better now.



It is hard to argue with that kind of logic. GE gets to be too expensive per letter for you then, now things are starting to make sense.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> It is hard to argue with that kind of logic. GE gets to be too expensive per letter for you then, now things are starting to make sense.


Super Silverstone brand would be an incredible value.


----------



## Paladin79

I got another Melz 1578 (68NS) at a very good price but there was only one available. That is one tube that if I can find for less than $100 I tend to grab.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I got another Melz 1578 (68NS) at a very good price but there was only one available. That is one tube that if I can find for less than $100 I tend to grab.



Hoarder.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hoarder.



Methinks the pot doth call the kettle black.
 Most all of my 1578's are in use right now, they are not squirreled away in a downstairs closet.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> I got another Melz 1578 (68NS) at a very good price but there was only one available. That is one tube that if I can find for less than $100 I tend to grab.



I can hardly wait on my new Melz 1578 (6H8C) to arrive from Europe!
I will finally get to hear what all the fuss is about.
I am expecting rolling waves of Eargasms... it has been a long time, so I better make sure my Heart pacemaker is adjusted for the stress. 

(And a gracious Thank You, Sir!)


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Methinks the pot doth call the kettle black.
> Most all of my 1578's are in use right now, they are not squirreled away in a downstairs closet.



Squirreled?  SQUIRRELED?  I'm terribly insulted.  Mine are carefully jammed randomly into plastic totes that slide under the bed. And when the tote gets too full for the lid to close, I just sit on it (like a suitcase) until everything smashes down far enough for the lid to snap shut. A far cry from squirreling, geez Louise.  Plus, since I'm a light sleeper this storage location will alert me instantly to any attempted pilferage. You never know when people(?) like @Ripper2860 might be in the area....


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Squirreled?  SQUIRRELED?  I'm terribly insulted.  Mine are carefully jammed randomly into plastic totes that slide under the bed. And when the tote gets too full for the lid to close, I just sit on it (like a suitcase) until everything smashes down far enough for the lid to snap shut. A far cry from squirreling, geez Louise.  Plus, since I'm a light sleeper this storage location will alert me instantly to any attempted pilferage. You never know when people(?) like @Ripper2860 might be in the area....



Ok I know when I am wrong and I am not afraid to admit it. You are more of a chipmunk or a pack rat.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Squirreled?  SQUIRRELED?  I'm terribly insulted.  Mine are carefully jammed randomly into plastic totes that slide under the bed. And when the tote gets too full for the lid to close, I just sit on it (like a suitcase) until everything smashes down far enough for the lid to snap shut. A far cry from squirreling, geez Louise.  Plus, since I'm a light sleeper this storage location will alert me instantly to any attempted pilferage. You never know when people(?) like @Ripper2860 might be in the area....




Disregard the 24x7 drone activity near your house.  It has absolutely nothing to do with your tube stash or your wife's nude sunbathing.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Disregard the 24x7 drone activity near your house.  It has absolutely nothing to do with your tube stash or your wife's nude sunbathing.



Hopefully the drone is the un-manned variety, I believe there was some talk lately about a manned variety.


----------



## Ripper2860

I will not reveal sources and methods.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> I will not reveal sources and methods.



Gaston County is kinda like Iranian airspace...


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I got another Melz 1578 (68NS) at a very good price but there was only one available. That is one tube that if I can find for less than $100 I tend to grab.


I wonder where are you using them. As we discussed before, they sound unpleasantly dry in Vali 2 with AKG K702. My aune T1 has now arrived to my daughter in DC; maybe this MELZ tube will work for me as a DAC buffer.


bcowen said:


> While hope for me is questionable at best and of inordinate optimism, I did just spring for these.
> 
> Yeah, I know they're not VT-192's. Already have a pair of those that are quite nice, but for whatever reason have not inspired me to kneel at the altar of the tube gods. So I'll try a different flavor and see what happens. That, and I think I have a DNA mutation that results in obsessive hoarding collecting of $6 tubes.


Do you know who made these tubes? Some say Loctals were only made Sylvania, Raytheon and National Union. Some say Philco invented them, but anyway they bought Lansdale from NU in 1947. So Hytron as well as CBS, must be rebrands. I have read somewhere that virtually all rebranded loctals were made by Sylvania.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 24, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I wonder where are you using them. As we discussed before, they sound unpleasantly dry in Vali 2 with AKG K702. My aune T1 has now arrived to my daughter in DC; maybe this MELZ tube will work for me as a DAC buffer.



I am using two in a Freya, and one in a Bottlehead Crack at the moment. I have not really heard that response about the Melz 1578 from eight others I know who use them. I have run them in the Vali and used Sennheiser and MrSpeakers headphones and love the sound more than any other 6sn7, a couple get close. Mids and highs are remarkable and the bass is certainly adequate.

We agree on the VT-192's, the Melz I got were made in a specific time frame. I have a single on the way that could be older that has the same characteristics but who knows about sound. Also I am sure to re-flow the solder on the pins on those so there may be a few variables involved.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jun 24, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I am using two in a Freya, and one in a Bottlehead Crack at the moment. I have not really heard that response about the Melz 1578 from eight others I know who use them. I have run them in the Vali and used Sennheiser and MrSpeakers headphones and love the sound more than any other 6sn7, a couple get close. Mids and highs are remarkable and the bass is certainly adequate.


I agree that the analytical precision of the MELZ 6H8C is difficult to match. However, what disappoints me is the lack of coherence of agregating various frequencies - MELZ leaves them each on their own. Maybe that's K702, but it is not much better to my ears on HE400i either. The 6SN7 tubes I like: Brimar/Mullard, and RCA grey glass have very good resolution as well, but they weave the sounds into a coherent whole with a lot of character and realism - which does not happen to me on the MELZ tube. Another thing is that as someone has put it the notes produced by it "have no shadow", i.e. while bright and precise they remain flat and dry. It results to me in a lack of musical engagement. I wonder myself because I like bright and resolving sound signatures (such as my newly disovered Tungsram 6DJ8), but I also need that coherence across the whole range of the flues and reeds, when Weinrich plays on the Holtcamp organ at the Good Shepherd, and richness of the texture of the notes which convey the sonic charasteristics of an instrument and the way it is played: I want to hear Heifetz bowing _sul ponticello_ on his Guarneri "the David" and the possibly full range of resulting reverberation in space, not just some violin strings bowed with highly precise tonal result. When I listen to Rostropovitch and Tachezi playing _Ach, was ist doch unser Leben_ I want to be with them at St. Giles in the Barbican. The best (for my liking) tubes in Vali 2 with K702 take me there. The MELZ tube in my setup somehow "purifies" each note, and whilst resulting clarity is amazing, the baby has been thown out with the  bathing water for me. I do not know if I managed to explain it well.

I should also refrain from listening to 3 different tubes every day, and give them time.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 24, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I agree that the analytical precision of the MELZ 6H8C is difficult to match. However, what disappoints me is the lack of coherence of agregating various frequencies - MELZ leaves them each on their own. Maybe that's K702, but it is not much better to my ears on HE400i either. The 6SN7 tubes I like: Brimar/Mullard, and RCA grey glass have very good resolution as well, but they weave the sounds into a coherent whole with a lot of character and realism - which does not happen to me on the MELZ tube. Another thing is that as someone has put it the notes produced by it "have no shadow", i.e. while bright and precise they remain flat and dry. It results to me in a lack of musical engagement. I wonder myself in because I like bright and resolving sound signatures (such as my newly disovered Tungsram 6DJ8), but I also need that coherence across the whole range of the flues and reeds, when Weinrich plays on the Holtcamp organ at the Good Shepherd, and richness of the texture of the notes which convey the sonic charasteristics of an instrument and the way it is played: I want to hear Heifetz bowing _sul ponticello_ on his Guarneri "the David" and the possibly full range of resulting reverberation in space, not just some violin strings bowed with highly precise tonal result. When I listen to Rostropovitch and Tachezi playing _Ach, was ist doch unser Leben_ I want to be with them at St. Giles in the Barbican. The best (for my liking) tubes in Vali 2 with K702 take me there. The MELZ tube in my setup somehow "purifies" each note, and whilst resulting clarity is amazing, the baby has been thown out with the  bathing water for me. I do not know if I managed to explain it well.
> 
> I should also refrain from listening to 3 different tubes every day, and give them time.



I wonder if the "have no shadow" is a reduction in harmonics?  I totally understand what you are saying ODD and perhaps so many tubes offer similar coherence to me that the Melz just jumps out as so different to me. I am using them in the Freya in conjunction with other tubes so maybe it is their accuracy and the blending with the other tubes that makes them so magical for me in that setting. The Crack has a pretty high degree of tube sound and often the bass and mids become muddy and overwhelming with specific tubes but the Melz solves that for me. I gave away a black glass RCA that was just too much for the Crack the way I have it set up now. In the Vali, the tube was shocking and different so maybe it was just a huge change that had an effect on me, but in my setup, I liked the effect. One mans lack of reverb may be another man's fast response and accuracy.   I am also listening to a lot of blues, rock, and jazz in binaural recordings. One way I judge accuracy is by listening to how a piano is represented, I do not hear a lot of organ music so I am less attuned to that.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I wonder if the "have no shadow" is a reduction in harmonics?  I totally understand what you are saying ODD and perhaps so many tubes offer similar coherence to me that the Melz just jumps out as so different to me. I am using them in the Freya in conjunction with other tubes so maybe it is their accuracy and the blending with the other tubes that makes them so magical for me in that setting. The Crack has a pretty high degree of tube sound and often the bass and mids become muddy and overwhelming with specific tubes but the Melz solves that for me. I gave away a black glass RCA that was just too much for the Crack the way I have it set up now. In the Vali, the tube was shocking and different so maybe it was just a huge change that had an effect on me, but in my setup, I liked the effect. One mans lack of reverb may be another man's fast response and accuracy.   I am also listening to a lot of blues, rock, and jazz in binaural recordings. One way I judge accuracy is by listening to how a piano is represented, I do not hear a lot of organ music so I am less atuned to that.



"One man's lack of reverb may be another man's fast response and accuracy". Well said, so true.

I took another Melz tube from a different batch. Sounds exactly the same. Glenn Gould on piano sounds a little hollow, though. Maybe I am too harsh on them. I'll give them more time. Maybe I should wait for aune T1 to arrive.

Well, that may well be the case that Vali is a setup with one tube in the single stage. That is why your idea of adding a tube-based DAC to Vali 2 intrigued me so much that I went for it. Towards the end of the summer, I will have a chance to play with such a setup. I hope this brings about very rich opportunities.

I do listen to jazz, blues, and rock, too.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 24, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> "One man's lack of reverb may be another man's fast response and accuracy". Well said, so true.
> 
> I took another Melz tube from a different batch. Sounds exactly the same. Glenn Gould on piano sounds a little hollow, though. Maybe I am too harsh on them. I'll give them more time. Maybe I should wait for aune T1 to arrive.
> 
> ...



I do listen to some classical but not nearly as much as I probably should.  I have in excess of 40,000 albums but only about 4% are classical.

 When I listened a lot to the Melz I did have the Aune hooked up so that may have influenced my opinion. When people listen to my system they always want to go back to my heavily modified DIY headphone amps, or else I am inadvertently leading them there. I have a few class a solid state headphone amps and no matter what, my friends drift back to the tube amps pretty quickly lol.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I agree that the analytical precision of the MELZ 6H8C is difficult to match. However, what disappoints me is the lack of coherence of agregating various frequencies - MELZ leaves them each on their own. Maybe that's K702, but it is not much better to my ears on HE400i either. The 6SN7 tubes I like: Brimar/Mullard, and RCA grey glass have very good resolution as well, but they weave the sounds into a coherent whole with a lot of character and realism - which does not happen to me on the MELZ tube. Another thing is that as someone has put it the notes produced by it "have no shadow", i.e. while bright and precise they remain flat and dry. It results to me in a lack of musical engagement. I wonder myself because I like bright and resolving sound signatures (such as my newly disovered Tungsram 6DJ8), but I also need that coherence across the whole range of the flues and reeds, when Weinrich plays on the Holtcamp organ at the Good Shepherd, and richness of the texture of the notes which convey the sonic charasteristics of an instrument and the way it is played: I want to hear Heifetz bowing _sul ponticello_ on his Guarneri "the David" and the possibly full range of resulting reverberation in space, not just some violin strings bowed with highly precise tonal result. When I listen to Rostropovitch and Tachezi playing _Ach, was ist doch unser Leben_ I want to be with them at St. Giles in the Barbican. The best (for my liking) tubes in Vali 2 with K702 take me there. The MELZ tube in my setup somehow "purifies" each note, and whilst resulting clarity is amazing, the baby has been thown out with the  bathing water for me. I do not know if I managed to explain it well.
> 
> I should also refrain from listening to 3 different tubes every day, and give them time.



I think you managed to explain it _very_ well.  And based on what you've said, have you tried an early 60's Telefunken 6DJ8/ECC88 in the Vali 2?  Not a 6922 or E88CC, but the good old lowly 6DJ8. You might need new underwear afterwards. I wouldn't necessarily describe it as bright, but resolving? Oh yeah. And the antithesis of flat and dry....


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> I love AC/DC.  Second, of course, to Marilyn Manson.


Disturbed = (AC/DC) + 1


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bochawa said:


> I bought the Vali 2 b-stock for $99.  First added the GE 5670W + adapter (~$20), then recently the Tung-Sol 6SN7 + adapter (~$40).  Currently awaiting delivery of Sylvania 7A4 XXL's + adapter (~$75).  Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.


Is there anything these Vali's CAN'T do. God I love 'em.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> That's how it looks:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...remind me again. Is this model a 9-pin replacement for the 6SN7 (in case I want to do away with the 6922-to-6SN7 adapter)?


----------



## Robert Padgett (Jun 24, 2019)

ScubaMan2017 said:


> ...remind me again. Is this model a 9-pin replacement for the 6SN7 (in case I want to do away with the 6922-to-6SN7 adapter)?



ScubaMan, both the Vali 2 and the Valhalla 2 use 6922-type novals as driver tubes. Any tube marked ECC88, E88CC, 6DJ8, 6BZ7 would be a drop in replacement for the stock 6N1P tubes. The 6SN7 adapter is allowing you to use that type tube in place of a 6922-type.

You would need an adapter for a 12A*7 tube, as the pin-out is different than a 6922-type. One thing about the 12AU7 tube is that it is a nice-sounding replacement for a 6SN7, and the nine-pin adapter will fit into the Valhalla 2 without an additional socket saver lifter. The 6CG7 is a nine-pin version of the 6SN7 and doesn't need any adapter to work on either Vali 2 and Valhalla 2.

Glad you found some socket-savers locally. I have discovered that they are a good way to keep my nine-pins from getting bent in the storage case. For some reason, pins on 6922-type tubes seem to be too easy to bend, yet the pins on the socket savers are a solid connection to the socket side, making them stronger. And the pins are "straightened" when you pull off the saver.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> The nice thing about the 12AU7 tube is that it is a direct replacement for a 6SN7 in terms of the internals...



Not to nitpick, but while a 12AU7 wired for 6.3 volt operation can be easily and safely subbed for a 6SN7, there are differences in the specs. The 6CG7 is the 9 pin version of the 6SN7 with identical (electrical) specs.


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Is there anything these Vali's CAN'T do.



Yes, but it would be ungentlemanly to detail it here.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Disregard the 24x7 drone activity near your house.  It has absolutely nothing to do with your tube stash or your wife's nude sunbathing.



I shot your drone down with my tube bazooka.  But no need to feel bad for me -- I used a JAN Philips ECG 12AU7. It was a mercy killing.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 24, 2019)

I lied.  It has EVERYTHING to do with your wife's nude sunbathing!  

2 words: Cloud Storage.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Not to nitpick, but while a 12AU7 wired for 6.3-volt operation can be easily and safely subbed for a 6SN7, there are differences in the specs. The 6CG7 is the 9 pin version of the 6SN7 with identical (electrical) specs.



Thanks for that, I misspoke. I just read and repeat what others say...Maybe I should have said that a 12au7 would sound similar to a 6SN7, rather than comparing the internals and specs. Learning as I go along...
The 6CG7 is the tall slender tube if I am thinking of the right one, and it doesn't need an adapter to plug into a 6922 socket.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> I shot your drone down with my tube bazooka.  But no need to feel bad for me -- I used a JAN Philips ECG 12AU7. It was a mercy killing.


I understand that there is a GE version of the Tube Gatling Gun, hand-cranked and fires 20 tubes as fast as you can fill the hopper...Great for UAV targets...


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> The 6CG7 is the tall slender tube if I am thinking of the right one, and it doesn't need an adapter to plug into a 6922 socket.



Yup. The 6CG7 is the same bottle size as a 12AU7. Pulls twice the heater current of the 6922, but so does the 6SN7 which doesn't seem to cause any problems in the Vali 2.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jun 25, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I think you managed to explain it _very_ well.  And based on what you've said, have you tried an early 60's Telefunken 6DJ8/ECC88 in the Vali 2?  Not a 6922 or E88CC, but the good old lowly 6DJ8. You might need new underwear afterwards. I wouldn't necessarily describe it as bright, but resolving? Oh yeah. And the antithesis of flat and dry....


Characteristics as you describe them sounds like the Tungsram 6DJ8 I have recently discovered. Also Mullard ECC82, 1972, is not bad for comparable signature. I'll look for Telefunken as well, thank you... wait a bit: $80 to $150 apiece?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Characteristics as you describe them sounds like the Tungsram 6DJ8 I have recently discovered. Also Mullard ECC82, 1972, is not bad for comparable signature. I'll look for Telefunken as well, thank you... wait a bit: $80 to $150 apiece?



I didn't say they were cheap.  And add even more for new underwear.  

The Tele doesn't have the treble energy of the Tungsram. It's a bit more laid back there, but it doesn't lack for detail -- just not as forward with it. But if you like piano recordings, the Tele will transport you to a new dimension with the incredible harmonic rendering and detail in the mids and upper bass. To me, the piano is one of the hardest instruments to get right, and the Tele is one of the best at it.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 25, 2019)

bcowen said:


> To me, the piano is one of the hardest instruments to get right, and the Tele is one of the best at it.



This may never happen again but I agree with Bill on this about the piano. I have not experimented with those particular tubes but if they command that kind of price there is generally a reason.

Many of my friends with whom I join in listening to different pieces of equipment, tubes, headphones, dacs etc. really know particular instruments and it is always good to get an opinion from a pianist or trumpet soloist. Among those friends the Melz 1578 rates very high and many of them do not know one tube from another.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> To me, the piano is one of the hardest instruments to get right..



And exactly how has Marilyn Manson helped you in zeroing in on the complex harmonics and characteristics of a properly reproduced piano??


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Among those friends the Melz 1578 rates very high


I have finally understood what brings about my own dissatisfaction with the MELZ tube...


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> And exactly how has Marilyn Manson helped you in zeroing in on the complex harmonics and characteristics of a properly reproduced piano??



Well, she was married to Joe Dimaggio for starters...Oh, Manson, not Monroe. 
Did she recently die in a California prison? Wrong Manson?  
Who is this Marilyn Manson? 
Is she one of those obscure piano virtuosi on a small independent label?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> And exactly how has Marilyn Manson helped you in zeroing in on the complex harmonics and characteristics of a properly reproduced piano??



Gutteral screaming is just as hard to get right as a piano. Duh.  

Oh, and I also listen to Yanni.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> Well, she was married to Joe Dimaggio for starters...Oh, Manson, not Monroe.
> Did she recently die in a California prison? Wrong Manson?
> Who is this Marilyn Manson?
> Is she one of those obscure piano virtuosi on a small independent label?



Not a she, certainly not a virtuoso, but quite enjoyable to listeners with a sufficient quantity of mutated brain cells


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jun 25, 2019)

bcowen said:


> the piano is one of the hardest instruments to get right


slippery road. different piano instruments sound very differently, and then depend on tuning a lot. same instrument will sound differently closed, half-open and open. It will also depend of how many soft objects (people, usually) are in the room, and in different rooms, too. And then, what Glenn Gould has done to his Steinway - think about getting THIS right:

"In the early 1960s, Gould acquired a pre-World War II
Steinway that became his favorite piano, the instrument he used in his
recordings and broadcasts throughout the 1960s and 70s.  When he first
acquired it, Gould had its action tinkered with to suit his needs.  Being
interested mostly in Bach at that time, Gould wanted an instrument that more
resembled a fortepiano than a modern piano, with a clean, dry tone, a light,
hair-trigger response and instant damping.  He also moved the hammers closer
to the strings, giving him more immediate grab and control of the sound.  For
the first few years following this surgery, one of the accidental byproducts
was the hiccuping middle register.  It is especially noticeable in the first
recording Gould made on his "improved" Steinway, Bach's Two- and Three-Part
Inventions.  Gould was more interested in action than sonority; he cared more
about having absolute control over phrasing, articulation and resonance than
about shimmering piano tone."


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 25, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I have finally understood what brings about my own dissatisfaction with the MELZ tube...



And I respect your opinion, the world would be a pretty boring place if we agreed on everything.

Not long ago i was involved in some double blind DAC testing, a lot of the results were similar but every now and then someone would love a piece of equipment that others rated at the bottom. Not knowing what you were listening to meant you were not influenced by price, or brand or ladder or Delta Sigma or whatever. It gets tricky when you buy something, or when you know it costs $10,000 when another device might cost $300.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> slippery road. different piano instruments sound very differently, and then depend on tuning a lot. same instrument will sound differently closed, half-open and open. It will also depend of how many soft objects (people, usually) are in the room, and in different rooms, too. And then, what Glen Gould has done to his Steinway - think about getting THIS right:
> 
> "In the early 1960s, Gould acquired a pre-World War II
> Steinway that became his favorite piano, the instrument he used in his
> ...



All true, but you're dissecting this into oblivion. Does a piano sound like a piano? I spent 10 years being tortured by my sister playing (well, 'play' is a bit of a stretch) a Kimball. Now the Kimball wasn't a cheap piece of crap, but a Steinway or Bosendorfer it most certainly wasn't.  When l first heard an accomplished artist playing an unamplified Steinway, I immediately understood there were pianos and there were PIANO's. There's violins, and then there's a Stradivarius. There's @Ripper2860 , and then there's me.  But you get the picture. Without being at the actual recording event there's no way of knowing exactly how it should sound. But is it believable?  That be the point.  Or my point. And for me to actually _*have*_ a point is in itself a newsworthy event.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 25, 2019)

bcowen said:


> And for me to actually _*have*_ a point is in itself a newsworthy event.



*NEWS FLASH:* Never before seen image of @bcowen with his dog _and his point ..._


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> is it believable?  That be the point.  Or my point.


There you go.If YOU believe it sounds like a piano, it is a piano TO YOU. To someone else, it may sound like a washboard (or a GE tube, to some). 

My point about Glenn Gould was he did not quite care how rich it sounded, but more about how he could get the music out of it.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> All true, but you're dissecting this into oblivion. Does a piano sound like a piano? I spent 10 years being tortured by my sister playing (well, 'play' is a bit of a stretch) a Kimball. Now the Kimball wasn't a cheap piece of crap, but a Steinway or Bosendorfer it most certainly wasn't.  When l first heard an accomplished artist playing an unamplified Steinway, I immediately understood there were pianos and there were PIANO's. There's violins, and then there's a Stradivarius. There's @Ripper2860 , and then there's me.  But you get the picture. Without being at the actual recording event there's no way of knowing exactly how it should sound. But is it believable?  That be the point.  Or my point. And for me to actually _*have*_ a point is in itself a newsworthy event.



There are differences in instruments and differences in recording equipment and styles as well as performances. I may have a specific opinion about something I hear listening to a trumpet. I know two people who play and teach at a pretty high level, I am more apt to listen to their opinion about a trumpet sounding more lifelike with a specific tube simply because they are exposed to it for more than I will ever be.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> There are differences in instruments and differences in recording equipment and styles as well as performances. I may have a specific opinion about something I hear listening to a trumpet. I know two people who play and teach at a pretty high level, I am more apt to listen to their opinion about a trumpet sounding more lifelike with a specific tube simply because they are exposed to it for more than I will ever be.



My son plays the trumpet (well, 'play' is, um,. you know).    It's a cheap one.  I doubt the torture would be minimized much with an expensive one.  I escaped the horror of my sister only to fall victim to my kid. And as soon as I escape that horror, along will come grandchildren that probably want to play a kazoo or something....


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 25, 2019)

bcowen said:


> My son plays the trumpet (well, 'play' is, um,. you know).    It's a cheap one.  I doubt the torture would be minimized much with an expensive one.  I escaped the horror of my sister only to fall victim to my kid. And as soon as I escape that horror, along will come grandchildren that probably want to play a kazoo or something....



My son played the trumpet and nearly majored in music in college. The local university has a fine school of music but you best be very very good to qualify for that. Luckily he studied computer science instead. The national symphony orchestra will be playing July 5th within walking distance of where he lives so he can enjoy music and still make a living luckily.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Robert Padgett said:


> ScubaMan, both the Vali 2 and the Valhalla 2 use 6922-type novals as driver tubes. Any tube marked ECC88, E88CC, 6DJ8, 6BZ7 would be a drop in replacement for the stock 6N1P tubes. The 6SN7 adapter is allowing you to use that type tube in place of a 6922-type.
> 
> You would need an adapter for a 12A*7 tube, as the pin-out is different than a 6922-type. One thing about the 12AU7 tube is that it is a nice-sounding replacement for a 6SN7, and the nine-pin adapter will fit into the Valhalla 2 without an additional socket saver lifter. The 6CG7 is a nine-pin version of the 6SN7 and doesn't need any adapter to work on either Vali 2 and Valhalla 2.
> 
> Glad you found some socket-savers locally. I have discovered that they are a good way to keep my nine-pins from getting bent in the storage case. For some reason, pins on 6922-type tubes seem to be too easy to bend, yet the pins on the socket savers are a solid connection to the socket side, making them stronger. And the pins are "straightened" when you pull off the saver.


...madly taking notes... *Ding. Done*.  
_I find it odd that volume control can be affected by the knob's shape, heft, and texture_.  I was able to find volume knobs with similar heft to the Valhalla 2. Magni's smooth. Vali... still stock knob (I removed the black plastic ones... too lightweight... but allow fine tuning).  I damaged the retaing screw on the other replacement (overtightened tiny Torx). Ah well...


----------



## Robert Padgett

ScubaMan2017 said:


> ...madly taking notes... *Ding. Done*.
> _I find it odd that volume control can be affected by the knob's shape, heft, and texture_.  I was able to find volume knobs with similar heft to the Valhalla 2. Magni's smooth. Vali... still stock knob (I removed the black plastic ones... too lightweight... but allow fine tuning).  I damaged the retaining screw on the other replacement (overtightened tiny Torx). Ah well...




 These are the "Hudson Hi-Fi" silicone hemispheres which cost $2 each and have replaced the miniature rubber feet on Valhalla 2, and the Sprout100, also a set under the Audio-gd R2R-11 Headphone Amp/ladder DAC. They are so much better and isolate the devices from Micro-vibration present in speaker systems.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> My son played the trumpet and nearly majored in music in college. The local university has a fine school of music but you best be very very good to qualify for that. Luckily he studied computer science instead. The national symphony orchestra will be playing July 5th within walking distance of where he lives so he can enjoy music and still make a living luckily.


Indeed Indiana University has a tremendous music program, and I remember in 1975 when they unveiled a Hazeltine terminal down in the basement Computer Center. 
To use it, you had to be a graduate student. Us underclassmen were still punching cards...


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> These are the "Hudson Hi-Fi" silicone hemispheres which cost $2 each and have replaced the miniature rubber feet on Valhalla 2, and the Sprout100, also a set under the Audio-gd R2R-11 Headphone Amp/ladder DAC. They are so much better and isolate the devices from Micro-vibration present in speaker systems.



You mean you're not using these?  You'll never hear what the Melz can _really_ do without them.     These are even on sale, so look how much money you'll save!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My son played the trumpet and nearly majored in music in college. The local university has a fine school of music but you best be very very good to qualify for that. Luckily he studied computer science instead. The national symphony orchestra will be playing July 5th within walking distance of where he lives so he can enjoy music and still make a living luckily.



One of my favorite events when I lived in Raleigh was the annual 4th of July concert by the NC Symphony Orchestra (for free) at Meredith College.  They always finished with the 1812 Overture and shot off real cannons at the end that were not only loud, but produced a pressure wave you could feel even sitting 100 yards away. 

I've tried to recreate that with my Aeons, but no luck just yet.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> One of my favorite events when I lived in Raleigh was the annual 4th of July concert by the NC Symphony Orchestra (for free) at Meredith College.  They always finished with the 1812 Overture and shot off real cannons at the end that were not only loud, but produced a pressure wave you could feel even sitting 100 yards away.
> 
> I've tried to recreate that with my Aeons, but no luck just yet.


Since this is after the fourth of July it is another show...


https://www.wolftrap.org/about/ticket-information/nationalsymphonyorchestra.aspx

Wolf Trap is the only national park dedicated to the performing arts I believe. The Doobie Brothers recorded an album there. A pretty area with exceptional outdoor concerts.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I know two people who play and teach at a pretty high level, I am more apt to listen to their opinion about a trumpet sounding more lifelike with a specific tube simply because they are exposed to it for more than I will ever be.


 I must be in my arguing mood today. How does it help you what THEY hear on your equipment? You surely hear it different. So what sounds like a lifelike trumpet to them may sound like a mundharmonica to your ears. We could go into this forever. It is ultimately what YOU, or I are hearing, is it not?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 25, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I must be in my arguing mood today. How does it help you what THEY hear on your equipment? You surely hear it different. So what sounds like a lifelike trumpet to them may sound like a mundharmonica to your ears. We could go into this forever. It is ultimately what YOU, or I are hearing, is it not?



I was more curious professionally and a couple of the younger people I know may go on to have great careers. There are a lot of things I am considering doing when I retire and an endorsement here and there might be a good thing.  I am also curious because I adapted many pieces of equipment to where I think they are accurate and realistic to my ear and while I am certainly happy about that, what if I were to start selling hand built amplifiers in my retirement and others thought they sounded awful?  I do a lot of casual listening but I have spent 90% of my career within specific areas of electronics.  I also know of companies who have gotten in trouble selling products and saying it sounds better or you will hear an obvious improvement, I would much just use endorsements from others.

Within certain areas, like say Cary amps, @bcowen  has a wealth of information about them that I will never have, as well as a knowledge of tubes used therein. There is always room to grow, and to learn. He mentioned the Melz 1578's to me so I sought them out, of course I may like them now better than he does, but that is beside the point lol.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jun 25, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I was more curious professionally and a couple of the younger people I know may go on to have great careers. There are a lot of things I am considering doing when I retire and an endorsement here and there might be a good thing.  I am also curious because I adapted many pieces of equipment to where I think they are accurate and realistic to my ear and while I am certainly happy about that, what if I were to start selling hand built amplifiers in my retirement and others thought they sounded awful?  I do a lot of casual listening but I have spent 90% of my career within specific areas of electronics.  I also know of companies who have gotten in trouble selling products and saying it sounds better or you will hear an obvious improvement, I would much just use endorsements from others.


That is definitely a different realm from my own little world of tubes. I respect and admire it. However, I just care about my own little crap with the tubes. I use guidance from you guys, but ultimately I only care about what I am hearing with my deaf ears.

BTW, I realised that not all Sylvanias VT-192 that I have are the same. Some are 1943, not 1945. So I just put a pair of the older ones in. Now @bcowen should be looking for fresh underwear.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 25, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> That is definitely a different realm from my own little world of tubes. I respect and admire it. However, I just care about my own little crap with the tubes. I use guidance from you guys, but ultimately I only care about what I am hearing with my deaf ears.
> 
> BTW, I realised that not all Sylvanias VT-192 that I have are the same. Some are 1943, not 1945. So I just put a pair of the older ones in. Now @bcowen should be looking for fresh underwear.



For me, one thing leads to another. I am GM of a company and I have done a lot of work with headphones, headphone cables, Dac's, amps, etc. Not everything I do is for my ear, and as one gets older, you lose the ability to hear high frequencies so it never hurts to get impressions from younger folks with better hearing.   In doing some double blind tests, I was curious how my sense of hearing stacked up against some other people I know and of the top five dacs chosen from the group I was off by just one, as I recall my number six was their number five.

I also have folks who tell me they can hear this or that, and I have enough equipment around where oftentimes I say " That is wonderful, show me!".  I have only come across a couple people who can really do that depending on the tubes, or wire, or equipment.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> That is definitely a different realm from my own little world of tubes. I respect and admire it. However, I just care about my own little crap with the tubes. I use guidance from you guys, but ultimately I only care about what I am hearing with my deaf ears.
> 
> BTW, I realized that not all Sylvanias VT-192 that I have are the same. Some are 1943, not 1945. So I just put a pair of the older ones in. Now @bcowen should be looking for fresh underwear.


That's a nice visual that I cannot unsee...It reminds me of the Southpark episode when they discovered a musical note that caused the loss of bowel control...en masse when played at a concert.

I am looking forward to forming my own opinion of the vintage Melz 1578 on Reference Vali 2. The Valhalla 2 is performing well with the JJ ECC82 and now a pair of my Novosibirsk  6N6P (which cost $4 per stick, out of Ukraine. I asked for the Paul Manafort special)

I had this discussion with @Ripper2860 about a slight difference between the ECC99 by JJ, and the stock 6N6P. When my box arrived, I rolled a pair in, and it sounded different and better than the JJ ECC99. Maybe the JJ Quad would be better, but I am OK with stock. Vali 2 is the only platform where I can hear a difference between tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> That is definitely a different realm from my own little world of tubes. I respect and admire it. However, I just care about my own little crap with the tubes. I use guidance from you guys, but ultimately I only care about what I am hearing with my deaf ears.
> 
> BTW, I realised that not all Sylvanias VT-192 that I have are the same. Some are 1943, not 1945. So I just put a pair of the older ones in. Now @bcowen should be looking for fresh underwear.



If the ones I get are, say, 1941's, then it's underwear back to you. 

Of course they may turn out to be relabeled GE's, in which case I'll need new underwear for a different reason.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 26, 2019)

I am tempted to send a group of 6sn7's to @bcowen , all markings removed, each epoxied inside of metal shields with only numbers on the outside 1-6 or such. He could announce his preferences here by number, and then I would explain which tube is a Tung Sol, which is a GE, which is a Sylvania, which is a Foton or what ever.  He would then return the tubes, and I would change the numbers on them around and send them on to the next person,@Ripper2860 . I would use the shields so the tubes could not be identified by internal structure. I think it would be a fun experiment.  I guess GE made some 6sn7's, I believe they bought out Ken-Rad at some point but I may be thinking of another company. I could paint the tops of the tubes so even getter type may not be visible. I might go as far as to re-flowing the solder in the tube pins and making a couple other slight changes that would make physical identification less likely.

 Maybe sealing wax with a specific stamp on the top so I am assured the tubes are not tampered with. I am sure Bill would go along with this so I am going to start shopping for tube shields right now. 

It would take a while to ship them to Belgium and @Old Deaf Donkey but I would certainly invite others to participate.  Naturally I could include a 6sn7 to 6922 adapter for anyone who needs it.

If tube shields are not available, I could cut small vents in conduit....this can be done.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am tempted to send a group of 6sn7's to @bcowen , all markings removed, each epoxied inside of metal shields with only numbers on the outside 1-6 or such. He could announce his preferences here by number, and then I would explain which tube is a Tung Sol, which is a GE, which is a Sylvania, which is a Foton or what ever.  He would then return the tubes, and I would change the numbers on them around and send them on to the next person,@Ripper2860 . I would use the shields so the tubes could not be identified by internal structure. I think it would be a fun experiment.  I guess GE made some 6sn7's, I believe they bought out Ken-Rad at some point but I may be thinking of another company. I could paint the tops of the tubes so even getter type may not be visible. I might go as far as to re-flowing the solder in the tube pins and making a couple other slight changes that would make physical identification less likely.
> 
> Maybe sealing wax with a specific stamp on the top so I am assured the tubes are not tampered with. I am sure Bill would go along with this so I am going to start shopping for tube shields right now.
> 
> ...



I'm game.  I promise to return any I don't like.  

Seriously, I am not confident enough to claim that I could definitively tell who the manufacturer was of some (or maybe any) of the tubes.  No problem identifying preference though. And I'll bet you a full steak dinner with a big bottle of wine that if there's a GE in the mix it will be at the bottom of the preference list. Unless of course you include a Philips blue-print ECG, which could have exponentially increased suckage.   You'll probably need to Dremel off any lettering that may be molded into the bottom of the base.  Not that I would cheat, of course, but you mentioned adding @Ripper2860 in which case all bets are off.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 26, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I'm game.  I promise to return any I don't like.
> 
> Seriously, I am not confident enough to claim that I could definitively tell who the manufacturer was of some (or maybe any) of the tubes.  No problem identifying preference though. And I'll bet you a full steak dinner with a big bottle of wine that if there's a GE in the mix it will be at the bottom of the preference list. Unless of course you include a Philips blue-print ECG, which could have exponentially increased suckage.   You'll probably need to Dremel off any lettering that may be molded into the bottom of the base.  Not that I would cheat, of course, but you mentioned adding @Ripper2860 in which case all bets are off.



Knowing full well you would go for this I just paid in excess of $100 for some tubes and got what many consider quality GE tubes in the bunch. Be careful when you mention a good bottle of wine with a steak, I generally go to where Mellencamp took Billy Joel in my home town and they have a four page wine list, $250-$500 is not uncommon for many so I would go with their house wine. 

I will try to photograph each tube with the corresponding tube number before I seal them so there is no question of cheating. Afterwards it is just a matter of re-arranging numbers before they are shipped to anyone else. 1 becomes 4, 2 becomes 7, etc. All tubes will be pretty close on specs if they are true 6sn7's, there may or may not be russian tubes in the mix.

I was planning on covering the tube bases just so you do not see a red base compared to a black etc. Maybe I will send ten tubes, I will take you up on the bet and I will not include the ECG tube lol, I only have a couple of those in 6sl7 anyway.

All tubes will be in sleeves the same height so you will not be able to tell tall bottle from short for the most part. Using any Russian tubes might be a giveaway since the pins can be smaller but I will give that some thought as well. I will try to make this as tough as possible for you and anyone else who wants to take a shot at it.  The sleeves will be slotted but allow for some air space on the inside but most likely they will be sealed top and bottom pretty well.

I guarantee there will be one GE in the mix and I will not pick the worst choices from each manufacturer like some off year Foton's or Melz. I may even put a 1578 in the mix cause it would be hilarious to have you rate it near the top.

All tubes will be tested, all pins cleaned, all will have been inserted in at least two of my amps for a minimum one hour to try to reduce a chance of failure.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Knowing full well you would go for this I just paid in excess of $100 for some tubes and got what many consider quality GE tubes in the bunch. Be careful when you mention a good bottle of wine with a steak, I generally go to where Mellencamp took Billy Joel in my home town and they have a four page wine list, $250-$500 is not uncommon for many so I would go with their house wine.
> 
> I will try to photograph each tube with the corresponding tube number before I seal them so there is no question of cheating. Afterwards it is just a matter of re-arranging numbers before they are shipped to anyone else. 1 becomes 4, 2 becomes 7, etc. All tubes will be pretty close on specs if they are true 6sn7's, there may or may not be russian tubes in the mix.
> 
> ...



Sounds like fun!

A couple notes though:

1) "Quality GE Tube" is an oxymoron
2) I didn't say a _good_ bottle of wine. Knowing (or thinking I know) your tastes, I carefully chose the word _big_.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 26, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Sounds like fun!
> 
> A couple notes though:
> 
> ...



OMG a big bottle of wine?  Things are turning serious, I will be working on this all weekend you know, time to play to win.   Above is an actual steak from the place I have in mind, I just ate there Monday night but it will take a while to get the tubes selected and shipped. Where is Ripper when you need him, before you rank the tubes, I will send him the photos that match up with the tubes so a couple of us will have those in front of us prior to your amazingly accurate ranking.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> OMG a big bottle of wine?  Things are turning serious, I will be working on this all weekend you know, time to play to win.   Above is an actual steak from the place I have in mind, I just ate there Monday night but it will take a while to get the tubes selected and shipped. Where is Ripper when you need him, before you rank the tubes, I will send him the photos that match up with the tubes so a couple of us will have those in front of us prior to your amazingly accurate ranking.



Is Richards Wild Irish Rose available in that big size bottle?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I am tempted to send a group of 6sn7's to @bcowen , all markings removed, each epoxied inside of metal shields with only numbers on the outside 1-6 or such. He could announce his preferences here by number, and then I would explain which tube is a Tung Sol, which is a GE, which is a Sylvania, which is a Foton or what ever.  He would then return the tubes, and I would change the numbers on them around and send them on to the next person,@Ripper2860 . I would use the shields so the tubes could not be identified by internal structure. I think it would be a fun experiment.  I guess GE made some 6sn7's, I believe they bought out Ken-Rad at some point but I may be thinking of another company. I could paint the tops of the tubes so even getter type may not be visible. I might go as far as to re-flowing the solder in the tube pins and making a couple other slight changes that would make physical identification less likely.
> 
> Maybe sealing wax with a specific stamp on the top so I am assured the tubes are not tampered with. I am sure Bill would go along with this so I am going to start shopping for tube shields right now.
> 
> ...



That would certainly be interesting to see the results, including my own. I do have a bias, but not to the brands, rather to sizes and numbers. Larger tube should always sound better than small one; and two - better than one. I am fighting it with mixed results.  I would gladly participate, with a bit of effort to time the schedule, it would be enough to send the tubes to Washington DC. The Belgian Post charges for customs clearance sometimes, so not worth it to mail internationally, indeed.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Is Richards Wild Irish Rose available in that big size bottle?


Wild Irish Rose a red wine? We do have 5 litter bottles in diplomatic sales for some vodkas and whiskys. Irish bloody Rose, and wild at that!


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> That would certainly be interesting to see the results, including my own. I do have a bias, but not to the brands, rather to sizes and numbers. Larger tube should always sound better than small one; and two - better than one. I am fighting it with mixed results.  I would gladly participate, with a bit of effort to time the schedule, it would be enough to send the tubes to Washington DC. The Belgian Post charges for customs clearance sometimes, so not worth it to mail internationally, indeed.



After some of the other folks have tried this I could certainly send the tubes to Washington DC. I am trying to make this as blind as possible so a person will not be able to tell if the tube was tall body or not. 

And Bill, the steak and bottle of wine is a bet, if you have the GE tube at the very bottom of the stack, then I will do the same thing for you. A steak and wine dinner. They serve wine at Ponderosa steakhouse right?


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Wild Irish Rose a red wine? We do have 5 litter bottles in diplomatic sales for some vodkas and whiskys. Irish bloody Rose, and wild at that!



I may have you help with my wine selection with the steak dinner I hope to win ODD, I like my chances, but if Bill wins I will be a gentleman, and congratulate him and praise his tube listening capabilities.  If I have to, I guess.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> And Bill, the steak and bottle of wine is a bet, if you have the GE tube at the very bottom of the stack, then I will do the same thing for you. A steak and wine dinner. They serve wine at Ponderosa steakhouse, right?



@Paladin79, unfortunately, Ponderosa has not expanded to NC. I do remember that being a big treat when I was growing up, to go clear up to Kokomo, and eat at a "steakhouse".
Bonanza and down South there were several similar types of "steakhouses" popped up, but when people stopped thinking Red meat was a good idea, most have closed.

If in Charlotte, I would recommend the "Beef and Bottle" on South Blvd. Inside the entrance is a framed review from USA Today which states, "The Beef and Bottle may well be the best Steakhouse in America with an unpaved parking lot."

Inside, you expect a young Frank Sinatra to be singing in the piano bar, the tufted red leather seats remind you of a 1950's classy joint, where the waiters wore tuxedos.

When I had staffers from Washington in town for the NCAA Final Four, I took them to the 'Beef and Bottle' the first night they were in town, and the second night also. They said it was the best steak they had recently eaten. And both traveled in and out of Latin America--so Argentine steak was a reference.

As for blind testing 6SN7 tubes, they all sound differently on the Vali 2, and none sound as good as the 12AU7 in the Valhalla 2.

@Paladin79 -- I now understand what you meant about the VH2 being a bit underpowered into 300-ohm headphones and the desire for an "11" on the volume dial. I have toyed with the idea of using the Magni 3 after the Valhalla for more volume a notch or two--making the Valhalla a true tube input buffer, and a solid-state amp to kick it up for the Senn 6XX.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> After some of the other folks have tried this I could certainly send the tubes to Washington DC. I am trying to make this as blind as possible so a person will not be able to tell if the tube was tall body or not.
> 
> And Bill, the steak and bottle of wine is a bet, if you have the GE tube at the very bottom of the stack, then I will do the same thing for you. A steak and wine dinner. They serve wine at Ponderosa steakhouse right?



If I win, I was thinking about the BLT Steakhouse at the Ritz-Carlton in downtown Charlotte. If I lose, Golden Corral. They're too busy to notice the bottle of Richards tucked under my sport coat.  Or wait....for Golden Corral that would be tucked into my overalls.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Wild Irish Rose a red wine? We do have 5 litter bottles in diplomatic sales for some vodkas and whiskys. Irish bloody Rose, and wild at that!



Yup, it's a red wine.   Well, red anyway...


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 26, 2019)

Robert Padgett said:


> @Paladin79, unfortunately, Ponderosa has not expanded to NC. I do remember that being a big treat when I was growing up, to go clear up to Kokomo, and eat at a "steakhouse".
> Bonanza and down South there were several similar types of "steakhouses" popped up, but when people stopped thinking Red meat was a good idea, most have closed.
> 
> If in Charlotte, I would recommend the "Beef and Bottle" on South Blvd. Inside the entrance is a framed review from USA Today which states, "The Beef and Bottle may well be the best Steakhouse in America with an unpaved parking lot."
> ...



I am hoping not to send Bill to a good steak place if I lose this wager but it will not matter a lot since I will have more invested in the tubes I am buying and pretty much sealing forever within some tube shaped containers. I have more GE tubes on the way, I need to select the perfect one for this challenge. I am also buying spare Sylvania, Tung Sol, RCA, Foton, Melz etc.

There will be some good tubes in this mix along with a GE tube. I will do my best to research any tubes that GE might have built for other companies so I do not increase Bills odds by having a Ken-Rad or Eico in the group that was really made by GE.


----------



## Robert Padgett (Jun 26, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Yup, it's red wine.   Well, red anyway...


 
Oh, you peasants...for the best bang for your buck, M-D 20-20, the choice of winos and hobos everywhere--Nightrain, or for the sophisticated palate--Thunderbird (What's the word? Thunderbird, What's the action? Satisfaction...)


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 26, 2019)

You guys are nuts.  I'll just keep enjoying my music and see who wins.  Besides, I suffer from gout and I'm trying to watch my weight.  


BTW -- they all need to measure similarly to ensure that someone does not throw in a 'strong' GE tube with the others being marginal or weak.  Remember -- Tomas X (name has been changed to protect the innocent) is more than capable of dealing from the middle of the deck and not get caught.  

Also -- given Willy X's (name changed to protect the innocent) trade, it would not surprise me if he has access to an industrial x-ray system used in checking for metal stress cracks, etc.  I'm sure a device like that could reveal the internal structure.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 26, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Yup, it's a red wine.   Well, red anyway...



You should drink a couple bottles of that before any testing to make this fair Bill.

Ripper I already thought of using sub par tubes but have you honestly ever shopped for GE tubes before?  I am looking for some in the $50 range and for that price they offer me boxes of them, I just need one frigging tube lol. Of course if Bill picks this one as say number 2 or 3 behind the Melz 1578, then he might change his ways and start hoarding them, then the price will go up.  I ask people I know for the best sounding GE tube they know of and they just kind of scratch their heads and start mumbling to themselves.

I need every advantage I can get. 

Bill will be able to test the tubes and they should all be in good shape. I HAVE to leave the pins sticking out, I guess.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah -- it seems that they are not very highly regarded as you typically find them in low-priced batches.  Power tubes are a different matter, with some GEs being highly regarded, I think.

I have 1 GE tube in my stash.  Nothing special about it, but not anything that would make me want to slit my own throat, either.  If Bill were to start to hoard them, that one tube could be my retirement, though!!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jun 26, 2019)

Robert Padgett said:


> Oh, you peasants...for the best bang for your buck, M-D 20-20, the choice of winos and hobos everywhere--Nightrain, or for the sophisticated palate--Thunderbird (What's the word? Thunderbird, What's the action? Satisfaction...)



Whoa! Looks like a major hangover. Have you tried them all? That is what should go for blind tasting, not the damn tubes!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 26, 2019)

I like a challenge, and if I lose, then this is a thank you for some very nice things Bill has done for me on the Cary amp so I will gladly buy him a nice steak and a bottle of Ripple or Boones Farm or whatever his wine of choice happens to be. I do believe in restaurants you do not have to conceal it in a brown paper bag.

Right now I am figuring on sending ten tubes so within the brands I may have to use some different varieties, maybe a couple VT 231's and such.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Whoa! Looks like a major hangover. Have you tried them all? That is what should go for blind tasting, not the damn tubes!



I was hoping that Richard (ie: @Ripper2860 ) would drink the Richards.  I mean it is named after him and all.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah -- it seems that they are not very highly regarded as you typically find them in low-priced batches.  Power tubes are a different matter, with some GEs being highly regarded, I think.
> 
> I have 1 GE tube in my stash.  Nothing special about it, but not anything that would make me want to slit my own throat, either.  If Bill were to start to hoard them, that one tube could be my retirement, though!!



From what I've read in multiple sources (and this is certainly NOT definitive) is that tubes that were actually manufactured by GE have little dots etched into the glass. What I don't know is if this applied to only certain date ranges or certain tube types. What I DO know is that if I see dots etched into the glass on any tube regardless of the exterior brand markings there's enough danger in it being a GE manufactured tube to stay way the hell away from it.  It would be illogical (and actually kinda stupid) for any other manufacturer to etch fake dots on their tube to make it look like a GE. Be kind of like putting a Ford Pinto badge on a Ferrari.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I like a challenge, and if I lose, then this is a thank you for some very nice things Bill has done for me on the Cary amp so I will gladly buy him a nice steak and a bottle of Ripple or Boones Farm or whatever his wine of choice happens to be. I do believe in restaurants you do not have to conceal it in a brown paper bag.
> 
> Right now I am figuring on sending ten tubes so within the brands I may have to use some different varieties, maybe a couple VT 231's and such.



Just a thought, and I don't intend to rain on the parade here, but 10 tubes may be a bit much.  In order to give a few hours warm-up time and then at least several hours for a thorough listening evaluation, there'd be a lot of time spent and numerous gaps in the auditory memory department as a result.  Maybe 5 or 6 tubes would be more practical for better minimization of the variables?  The Boones Farm is cool though regardless.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I HAVE to leave the pins sticking out, I guess.



That would certainly make things easier.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You should drink a couple bottles of that before any testing to make this fair Bill.
> 
> Ripper I already thought of using sub par tubes but have you honestly ever shopped for GE tubes before?  I am looking for some in the $50 range and for that price they offer me boxes of them, I just need one frigging tube lol. Of course if Bill picks this one as say number 2 or 3 behind the Melz 1578, then he might change his ways and start hoarding them, then the price will go up.  I ask people I know for the best sounding GE tube they know of and they just kind of scratch their heads and start mumbling to themselves.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure I have a true GE 6SN7 or two in the bottom of the bucket. I'll look tonight, and if I do I can send a couple to you to mark up with the rest. No sense in having to buy a whole box of crap.   May even have a Philips ECG 6SN7, although mine might be 6SL7's as well.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> You mean you're not using these?  You'll never hear what the Melz can _really_ do without them.     These are even on sale, so look how much money you'll save!


I discovered two electronics parts-warehouses. They recycle esoteric parts. One's a mess, but fun to explore (if I ever get into my head to re-learn electronic appliance repair [without electrocuting myself]). The other place is way out by the airport. But the THINGS. Ohhh yeahhhh.
"Don't be sad, two out of three [knobs] ain't bad". _Meatloaf, Bat Out Of Hell_.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 26, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I'm pretty sure I have a true GE 6SN7 or two in the bottom of the bucket. I'll look tonight, and if I do I can send a couple to you to mark up with the rest. No sense in having to buy a whole box of crap.   May even have a Philips ECG 6SN7, although mine might be 6SL7's as well.



I do not mess around, I already have some GE holy grails or dixie cups on the way lol.

You want to increase your odds drastically by picking from just six tubes?  Your odds just went up if we do that and what kind of test would that be? Ripper could probably pick the GE tube one in six times with those odds lol. I will think about it.

I just received a bargain Melz 1578 with a 1976 date code. It needs the solder re-flowed on the pins,  the mids and highs are amazing. I need to find just the right music to test the bass.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Whoa! Looks like a major hangover. Have you tried them all? That is what should go for a blind tasting, not the damn tubes!


My last encounter with Mogen-David 20/20 Fortified wine was my Freshman year at Butler University, a pledge to the Phi Delta Theta house. I lived in the dorm and was on the meal plan, so me and a buddy chugged a bottle of the Kosher bum-wine and proceeded to stagger toward the dining hall, when stopped by an observant member of the Campus Police, and questioned about our staggering gait, we both proudly explained we were Phi Delt pledges, to which he responded, "That explains everything..." The movie Animal House was loosely based on our Fraternity--as are about every frat house in the mid-1970s. An occasional glass of good red wine is sublime. Fortified to 20%, it is poison.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I do not mess around, I already have some GE holy grails or dixie cups on the way lol.
> 
> You want to increase your odds drastically by picking from just six tubes?  Your odds just went up if we do that and what kind of test would that be? Ripper could probably pick the GE tube one in six times with those odds lol. I will think about it.
> 
> I just received a bargain Melz 1578 with a 1976 date code. It needs the solder re-flowed on the pins,  the mids and highs are amazing. I need to find just the right music to test the bass.



OK then. You make the call.

I found a piece of genuine GE made crap in the stash, and then right after that a genuine piece of uber schiit.  Tested both, and both test close to NOS GM with no shorts or leakage.  If you want me to send them your way to include just give me the word. Right now I gotta go clean up my tester that threw up all over the place when I stuck them in.


----------



## Ripper2860

Cool.  Very forward thinking and inclusive to mark tubes in braille.  Not all tube rollers have 20/20 vision.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Cool.  Very forward thinking and inclusive to mark tubes in braille.  Not all tube rollers have 20/20 vision.



They're marked that way for tube rollers that don't have 20/20 hearing. You can actually feel it suck.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> OK then. You make the call.
> 
> I found a piece of genuine GE made crap in the stash, and then right after that a genuine piece of uber schiit.  Tested both, and both test close to NOS GM with no shorts or leakage.  If you want me to send them your way to include just give me the word. Right now I gotta go clean up my tester that threw up all over the place when I stuck them in.


I have several GE on the way. As you said if I included a Phillips ECG there would be two really bad tubes in the mix so that would be unfair to you. The base can be a bit obvious on the Melz tubes with their four metal indentations so I will have to think about that. How about 8 tubes that you need to hear and rate?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have several GE on the way. As you said if I included a Phillips ECG there would be two really bad tubes in the mix so that would be unfair to you. The base can be a bit obvious on the Melz tubes with their four metal indentations so I will have to think about that. How about 8 tubes that you need to hear and rate?



OK, 8 it is.

And I'd probably be able to identify the Philips ECG without even plugging it in. It has an aura. Just being in the same room with it gives me indigestion. Think I'll stick it in my new bosses office when he isn't looking so he'll start calling in sick every day.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 26, 2019)

bcowen said:


> OK, 8 it is.
> 
> And I'd probably be able to identify the Philips ECG without even plugging it in. It has an aura. Just being in the same room with it gives me indigestion. Think I'll stick it in my new bosses office when he isn't looking so he'll start calling in sick every day.



Lol you win if you put the GE tube in last place. For extra credit if you win the first part, and can identify other tube brands correctly, you might earn dessert or an after dinner cognac.

A kitten could probably pick the GE one out of six.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Lol you win if you put the GE tube in last place. For extra credit if you win the first part, and can identify other tube brands correctly, you might earn dessert or an after dinner cognac.
> 
> A kitten could probably pick the GE one out of six.



LOL!  Kitty would probably use the amp as a litter box if it had a GE in it.

I'm glad the amp isn't on or kitty would be burning her (his?) nose on that KT-90.    What rectifiers are those?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Lol you win if you put the GE tube in last place.



Oh, and just to be sure things are fair, you have to use a GE with the etched dots indicating GE actually made it.  No fair putting in a Ken-Rad labeled as a GE.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 27, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Oh, and just to be sure things are fair, you have to use a GE with the etched dots indicating GE actually made it.  No fair putting in a Ken-Rad labeled as a GE.


The rectifiers are not something I have messed with on the Cary but I will look tonight, I believe I was given an extra set of those as well.

It will be an actual GE tube from the forties or fifties, I am not sure how long ago the dots started. I will have to see if my books mention them. There should be three digit codes that show GE made a particular tube.

If I find a GE tube prior to them taking over Ken-Rad there should be little doubt who made it. If I have any doubt I will get @Ripper2860  involved as an impartial judge.

The military versions often have CTL designating GE as I recall.

This article states that dots on GE tubes began in 1952, this is pretty good reference material but obviously not all GE tubes had dots.

https://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=230932

GE bought Ken-Rad in 1945 I read, and often used GE tubes but put Ken-Rad names on them, thus people often search for pre 1945 Ken-Rads I would think.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> There should be three digit codes that show GE made a particular tube.



I've found (at least with some tube types) that the EIA code is not the actual manufacturers code but is the code of whoever it's labeled for.  The Frankie 7N7's are prime examples -- I have two that are labeled GE and have GE's EIA code, but know for a fact they were made by Sylvania.  I think the etched dots are more accurate in identifying a true GE manufactured tube, as I've seen no other manufacturer use those on their tube(s).  Again I cannot state that as absolute fact, but there are a couple different sources that say basically the same thing.



Paladin79 said:


> If I find a GE tube prior to them taking over Ken-Rad there should be little doubt who made it.



Agree.



Paladin79 said:


> If I have any doubt I will get @Ripper2860  involved as an impartial judge.



I just spit my coffee out of my nose.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 27, 2019)

I will do my best to assure the accuracy of a tube being GE. I bought a lot of tube manuals and there may be some GE books in the mix. If there is any doubt after the fact we will get an impartial judge who just received multiple items from me, to decide your fate.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-GE-EI...150844?hash=item3d8e0beb3c:g:NKYAAOSwpKxdEgrl

I would think an Eico tube that says manufactured by GE would be a GE tube, if not why bother to say that.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I would think an Eico tube that says manufactured by GE would be a GE tube, if not why bother to say that.



The only logical explanation would be a poison pill tactic on Eico's part.  Kill the business to avoid a hostile takeover.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ...there may be some GE books...



GE had books?  Wow.  Probably just for decoration.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> GE had books?  Wow.  Probably just for decoration.



They published a technical manual but...*IT was Printed in Big Type and used Simple Words.*


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> GE had books?  Wow.  Probably just for decoration.


It will be hilarious if you pick a GE tube in your top four favorites. I may have to start calling you Mr. GE 

I do not think a some of the earlier Melz 1578's had quite the bass as the ones made in the 80's, all other things looking equal in construction.  One day I will have to go through all of them at once as well as getting a friend whose hearing is exceptional to check them out as well.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It will be hilarious if you pick a GE tube in your top four favorites. I may have to start calling you Mr. GE
> 
> I do not think a some of the earlier Melz 1578's had quite the bass as the ones made in the 80's, all other things looking equal in construction.  One day I will have to go through all of them at once as well as getting a friend whose hearing is exceptional to check them out as well.



That will be hilarious, but quite unlikely.  In my experience, they may have good bass, may have good midrange, may have good treble, may throw a decent soundstage, may be dynamic, may be nuanced and detailed, and may have a combination of all of those. But there's no 'may' in the fingernails on a chalkboard presentation that stands above all the rest.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 27, 2019)

bcowen said:


> But there's no 'may' in the fingernails on a chalkboard presentation that stands above all the rest.



Yeah, I can see where a vibrant top-end and Marilyn Manson could possibly have that affect.  Or heck, maybe even just Marilyn Manson.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah, I can see where a vibrant top-end and Marilyn Manson could possibly have that affect.  Or heck, maybe even just Marilyn Manson.



At some point you are going to_ have _to expand your horizons beyond the Carpenters and Partridge Family. But I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## Ripper2860

You say that like it's a bad thing to like 'The Carpenters' and 'Partridge Family'.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You say that like it's a bad thing to like 'The Carpenters' and 'Partridge Family'.



Certainly not a bad thing for a 13 year old. But that was, what, 50 years ago for you?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 27, 2019)

Uh, NO  I am not yet 60.  And as my wife says, I am a naughty 13 yo. trapped in a rather well preserved and well endowed body of a mature man that knows how to pleasure women.  So, I guess it only makes sense.  


Wait.  Was that TMI??


----------



## Paladin79

Alcohol is necessary for a man so that he can have a good opinion of himself, undisturbed by the facts. 
someone named Dunne said that.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 27, 2019)

Fortunately for me, it's my wife's opinion I posted.  



Edit:  Hi!  This is Richard's wife.  It is all very very true.  OMG! 



OK -- I'm back now.  Hopefully this puts it to rest.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Uh, NO  I am not yet 60.  And as my wife says, I am a naughty 13 yo. trapped in a rather well preserved and well endowed body of a mature man that knows how to pleasure women.  So, I guess it only makes sense.



I just got through cleaning up my tester's spewing from the GE tube, and now I gotta clean up what I just spewed.  Thanks a lot.


----------



## Paladin79

I do believe I have located 8 6sn7's from different manufacturers for the @bcowen tube challenge. They will be as close as I can get them on their overall specs.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I do believe I have located 8 6sn7's from different manufacturers for the @bcowen tube challenge. They will be as close as I can get them on their overall specs.



How did this suddenly morph into the bcowen-only tube challenge?  I'm just a participant.  No doubt I'll win, but there are others that should be involved.  

Just got these in.  Four of them measure really well with NOS-level GM and the GM almost identical between them. So two nicely matched pairs to play with. One measures a little lower and has about 4 megohms of interelement leakage, so it's kinda iffy.  I'll sell it to @Ripper2860 at some point for a premium.  

Funny how these are identical internally to the Sylvanias I have...


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 28, 2019)

bcowen said:


> How did this suddenly morph into the bcowen-only tube challenge?  I'm just a participant.  No doubt I'll win, but there are others that should be involved.
> 
> Just got these in.  Four of them measure really well with NOS-level GM and the GM almost identical between them. So two nicely matched pairs to play with. One measures a little lower and has about 4 megohms of interelement leakage, so it's kinda iffy.  I'll sell it to @Ripper2860 at some point for a premium.
> 
> Funny how these are identical internally to the Sylvanias I have...


 Others can certainly join in but the steak dinner and bottle of wine that you suggested made the idea more fun!  I am not sure @Ripper2860  read all the early statements but i am happy to send the tubes on to most anyone, to see what differences they hear.  I believe I have a way to preserve the tubes within the sleeve and if that works out, I will include what folks consider some very good tubes in the mix.  Anyone can join in without doing any wagering by the way.

No matter what your tube buying choices are, often you pay for the rarity of a tube and the opinions generated by others. You pay dearly for a bad boy sylvania if it has all the correct features but money and opinions aside would you pick that tube as exceptional in a blind test?  That is the part that I hope others will find interesting.

Undoubtedly Bill's ranking of tubes in this challenge will remain the um benchmark by which all other ratings are made, but that is beside the point, we are mere mortals, Bill is most likely a tube whisperer.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Undoubtedly Bill's ranking of tubes in this challenge will remain the um benchmark by which all other ratings are made, but that is beside the point, we are mere mortals, Bill is most likely a tube whisperer.



LOL!  I'm just the average Joe with average ears, average listening abilities and my own biased preferences. I'm just lucky enough to have a big schiitpile of tubes to play with. 



Paladin79 said:


> No matter what your tube buying choices are, often you pay for the rarity of a tube and the opinions generated by others. You pay dearly for a bad boy sylvania if it has all the correct features but money and opinions aside would you pick that tube as exceptional in a blind test?  That is the part that I hope others will find interesting.



Being totally serious, your comments are well stated and _*exactly *_on point. Is it a particular tube that is really _that_ good, or our _expectation_ that the tube is really that good from what we've read, what others say, what the price is, how it synergizes with individual components, etc.  No definitive answer to that question IMO -- I think there are many factors that all play a part beyond just the tube itself.  I've debated that myself on many occasions from the flip side: I stick in a tube I got on the cheap, there are no mentions of it by anyone anywhere, and yet it sounds friggin' awesome (to me). So why is it not included in the realm of the prized and coveted with a stratospheric price to match?  Is it just an as-yet undiscovered gem, or is it just priced too cheaply for anyone to take seriously?  Ye Olde Frankentube comes to mind as a perfect example..


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 28, 2019)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I'm just the average Joe with average ears, average listening abilities and my own biased preferences. I'm just lucky enough to have a big schiitpile of tubes to play with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That brings up an interesting thing, if I can use long enough tube shields, I may be able to put a Frankentube in the mix.

Also I know my expectations were high for the Melz 1578’s, they do sound very different to me but how much was my opinion influenced by price and expectations?


----------



## Ripper2860

Exactly why I have foregone all tubes and am now only using LISST in Lyr 3.  It all just one big mind ***.   





(J/K  -- love tubes and will likely forever be a tuber.)


As it relates to the 'Challenge' goes -- may the best tube win!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> That brings up an interesting thing, if I can use long enough tube shields, I may be able to put a Frankentube in the mix.



But then you'll need a 6SN7 adapter in the stack.  I DO have a height restriction -- if the tube combo is more than 3 feet tall it won't fit under my shelf.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Exactly why I have foregone all tubes and am now only using LISST in Lyr 3.  It all just one big mind ***.



Were you able to discern any sonic difference between the Lyr (with either thermionic tube or LISST) and just plugging into the sound card output from your laptop?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 28, 2019)

I don't use a LT for my audio listening.  I use a DT  with audiophile-class Soundblaster Pro audio card along with my recently upgraded Skullcandy ear phones.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't use a LT for my audio listening.  I use a DT  with audiophile-class Soundblaster Pro audio card along with my recently upgraded Skullcandy ear phones.



What did you do with the Close'N' Play?  You promised me first dibs on that.   Welcher.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> But then you'll need a 6SN7 adapter in the stack.  I DO have a height restriction -- if the tube combo is more than 3 feet tall it won't fit under my shelf.  LOL!



Out of a sense of fair play, I hope to include some tubes you like so that you have a real fighting chance of placing the GE tube at the bottom of the list. With pipe the tubes will not be more than 2.5 feet long. As I said earlier am going to allow some extra space so that approximate tube length will not be a giveaway, nor will color or type of tube base. I just  have to be sure the tubes can play for several hours and not melt the sealing wax that will be used in my process. Most likely I will use hot glue with a known melting temp and then sealing wax on top of it, to insure no peeking.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> What did you do with the Close'N' Play?  You promised me first dibs on that.   Welcher.



No way!!!  WTH do you think I listen to my Carpenters and Partridge Family 45s on??


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> No way!!!  WTH do you think I listen to my Carpenters and Partridge Family 45s on??



A 45 related question, I happened upon this the other day, no internet searches please.....Which company invented the 45 RPM record?


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say RCA, but that's like too obvious so likely wrong.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 28, 2019)

It was RCA  1949, and it was a year after Columbia records made a 33 1/3 record. 78's date back to the late 1890's.

Now I must go sort through some 6sn7's and prepare more space before others arrive in the mail.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I'm just the average Joe with average ears, average listening abilities and my own biased preferences. I'm just lucky enough to have a big schiitpile of tubes to play with.
> Being totally serious, your comments are well stated and _*exactly *_on point. Is it a particular tube that is really _that_ good, or our _expectation_ that the tube is really that good from what we've read, what others say, what the price is, how it synergizes with individual components, etc.  No definitive answer to that question IMO -- I think there are many factors that all play a part beyond just the tube itself.  _*I've debated that myself on many occasions from the flip side: I stick in a tube I got on the cheap, there are no mentions of it by anyone anywhere, and yet it sounds friggin' awesome (to me). So why is it not included in the realm of the prized and coveted with a stratospheric price to match? *_ Is it just an as-yet undiscovered gem, or is it just priced too cheaply for anyone to take seriously?  Ye Olde Frankentube comes to mind as a perfect example..



It is with this thought in mind comes one the founding principles of the Affordable Audiophile. If I can buy two lots of 3- 6SN7  tubes for $10 off eBay, and they are advertised as "tests Good", and they sound very good through my headphones-- then what justifies the rare, expensive tube based upon the consensus opinions of fellow audiophiles? 

Bill, I submit for your consideration that there is a degree of herd mentality, and once a Tube is declared to be "outstanding" my a minion--the rest of us take them at their word and start sending Brent Jesse the money so as they can experience what another has reported. 
Not that there is anything wrong with this. It is as much a part of the hobby as the modification of a stock HP amp with different components to suit your liking, or choosing different headphones.

Also, take into consideration, a World which includes a $99 solid-state HP amp (Magni 3) when coupled with a $99 DAC (Modi 3) and a pair of $199 headphones from Massdrop, and you will have a listening experience which achieves 90% of what you could expect from a set-up that costs 10 times as much. 

If you are retired and are satisfied with a one-tube Vali 2 for $149 and a couple different $3 tubes to play with...and you truly enjoy your Music, who can judge that? I comment @Paladin79 for setting up as close to blind testing as possible. 

I think the results will be both eye-opening and surprising. 
Devoid of discrete marking, like a turned corner on a card, I am betting that everyone will hear differently and that one favorite will not emerge from a diverse sampling.

I also trust a free-market economy and have long since quit asking--
How can a Multi-billion dollar, Multi-national Corporation like General Electric produce a truly "Bad" tube? 
Did one of Jack Welch's predecessors back in the mid-1950s tell the Board of Directors, "There is a niche market developing for truly abysmal Audio Vacuum Tubes, and we will own that sector!" followed by resounding applause in the Board Room. 
I think not. 
Did others in the field make better tubes, which were cheaper, lasted longer in use, and as a side-benefit really WOW'd early Audiophiles? 
I doubt if Headphone Amplifiers in the 21st century were even on the table of discussion--with GE making Radios and Televisions that needed Vacuum tubes to work.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 28, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> It was RCA  1949, and it was a year after Columbia records made a 33 1/3 record. 78's date back to the late 1890's.
> 
> Now I must go sort through some 6sn7's and prepare more space before others arrive in the mail.



I suppose there's no aperitif and steak dinner, fine wine, fine cigar, and NY cheese cake resulting from my stupendous guess and win?  



Robert Padgett said:


> How can a Multi-billion dollar, Multi-national Corporation like General Electric produce a truly "Bad" tube?



Maybe they are just bad audio tubes and served quite well in their intended role in other applications.  Many of these tubes were not intended or designed for audio use.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 28, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> I suppose there's no aperitif and steak dinner with wine, cigar and cheese cake resulting from my stupendous guess and win?



No sorry that is something reserved for true gambling men like Bill and myself and agreed upon before hand. I suppose we should put a limit on what that meal can cost. There is a steak place in Indy that is rather well known, they serve cigars after the meal as well as some highly rated cognac. Camus is my preference but I have been known to partake of others.

I just checked an Eico tube and not only does it say Made by GE it has the small dots in place as well but I have other choices on the way. I must select the perfect GE tube to place into the experiment. One with enough bass slam that Bill will immediately drool over the sound.


----------



## Ripper2860

Ok.  How about a 1/4 pounder and a Shamrock shake?


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Ok.  How about a 1/4 pounder and a Shamrock shake?


Ok you got it, just email me a copy of the receipt and funds will be on the way to you at some point in the not so distant future.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 28, 2019)

Woohoo!!!   It'll be a bit, however.  Shamrock shake only comes around once a year about St. Patty's day.  



RemInds me of a segment on the TV show 'Raising Hope' where the killer girlfriend/mom is sentenced to death and prior to her execution requests a McRib and Shamrock shake as her last meal.  A very wise move considering they are almost never offered at the same time!!


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> Bill, I submit for your consideration that there is a degree of herd mentality, and once a Tube is declared to be "outstanding" my a minion--the rest of us take them at their word and start sending Brent Jesse the money so as they can experience what another has reported.
> Not that there is anything wrong with this. It is as much a part of the hobby as the modification of a stock HP amp with different components to suit your liking, or choosing different headphones.



Robert,
I agree with you on this.  Herd mentality is an absolute reality in this hobby. As are preferences, component synergy, and a host of other things that have little to do with the isolated sound of the tube itself. There is absolutely nothing wrong (in fact, probably more stuff that's right) with obtaining an immensely enjoyable listening experience with inexpensive equipment.  I wrote some blather a while back about how the more I spent and the closer I got to that imagined level of total 'accuracy' in my big rig the less and less I enjoyed listening to the system.  Sometimes the _best_ is actually worse.  



Robert Padgett said:


> How can a Multi-billion dollar, Multi-national Corporation like General Electric produce a truly "Bad" tube?
> Did one of Jack Welch's predecessors back in the mid-1950s tell the Board of Directors, "There is a niche market developing for truly abysmal Audio Vacuum Tubes, and we will own that sector!" followed by resounding applause in the Board Room.



Now this is a horse of a different color. This same multi-billion dollar company builds (or used to build) appliances that fail _regularly_ within a month of the warranty expiration. And most don't work worth a crap before they fail. I bought a house that was full of GE appliances, and every single one failed well before any logical expectation would dictate. My brother-in-law has worked for GE for over 30 years. He doesn't have a single GE appliance in his house, even though he could purchase them for a fraction of their retail price.  I _will _give kudos to GE for their jet engines -- I haven't been in a plane equipped with them where I've crashed and died yet.   And incidentally, that's the division my Bro' in law has worked.  But _quality_ and _GE_ do NOT go hand in hand in many areas of their business, and IMO, tubes are one of those areas.  They built to a price/profit point, and the electrical characteristics of those tubes were likely irrelevant as long as they made baseline specs...and margins.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It was RCA  1949, and it was a year after Columbia records made a 33 1/3 record. 78's date back to the late 1890's.
> 
> Now I must go sort through some 6sn7's and prepare more space before others arrive in the mail.



I have some cut lacquer discs handed down by my late grandfather. Not sure when those came along...any ideas?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I suppose there's no aperitif and steak dinner, fine wine, fine cigar, and NY cheese cake resulting from my stupendous guess and win?



No awards for pure, dumb luck.  Sorry....Tom's rules.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 28, 2019)

So following that logic ...

*No steak for you!!!*



However, if you can determine the brand (if a re-brand the OEM and the labeled brand), sub-type (GT/GTA/GTB), MFG date (year/week) and MFG Plant for each of Tom's mystery tubes ...

You will earn the title of Tube Somalier and a McRib**sandwich (when available)!! 

** Can be substituted for a Carolina pulled pork sandwich with vinegar sauce and coleslaw.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I have some cut lacquer discs handed down by my late grandfather. Not sure when those came along...any ideas?


 As best I recall all original 78 disks were lacquer. I am not sure if and when they changed over to other materials but I would think they did later on.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 28, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> So following that logic ...
> 
> *No steak for you!!!*
> 
> ...



I considered telling Bill all the tubes that will be hidden within the pvc tubes but I would rather he did not have that info till after he ranks the tubes. GE for at least one tube will be all he knows, it would be foolish of me to use two or more GE tubes since it would increase Bill's chance of winning the bet so I can pretty well guarantee only one of those. If he puts the GE in last place, he wins the bet, and if he accurately tells me which brand some of the other tubes are, I would be happy to increase the prize at that point.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I must select the perfect GE tube to place into the experiment. One with enough bass slam that Bill will immediately drool over the sound.


----------



## bcowen

You must have a thing for challenges. If you can find a GE-manufactured tube with bass slam, that's a challenge itself. Now if you can find one with bass slam _and_ a treble presentation that doesn't slice your eardums into bloody chunks of disintegrated flesh, that's probably worth another steak dinner.


----------



## bcowen (Jun 28, 2019)

Oops.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> However, if you can determine the brand (if a re-brand the OEM and the labeled brand), sub-type (GT/GTA/GTB), MFG date (year/week) and MFG Plant for each of Tom's mystery tubes ....



Child's play.  I'll also name the people that worked on that tube, their family lineage, when they started at GE, how much they were paid, when they retired, and how many times a week they had sex.  I may (admittedly) need a little margin for error on that last one as full details may not have been honestly portrayed.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> As best I recall all original 78 disks were lacquer. I am not sure if and when they changed over to other materials but I would think they did later on.



My grandfather actually had a recording machine that would cut the grooves in the lacquer and make the recording.  The discs I have are mostly of my mom talking and singing when she was a little girl. I played some of these a long time ago on a cheap turntable with a cheap cartridge.  As you might imagine, the sound quality was pretty horrible.   I'm not quite brave enough to sink my Koetsu's stylus into them at this point....


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> My grandfather actually had a recording machine that would cut the grooves in the lacquer and make the recording.  The discs I have are mostly of my mom talking and singing when she was a little girl. I played some of these a long time ago on a cheap turntable with a cheap cartridge.  As you might imagine, the sound quality was pretty horrible.   I'm not quite brave enough to sink my Koetsu's stylus into them at this point....


 
We had a similar device when I was growing up that was an antique. It was a combination radio and turntable with recording capability. I am not sure whatever became of it but it was a pretty large item.


----------



## Robert Padgett (Jun 28, 2019)

ok


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You must have a thing for challenges. If you can find a GE-manufactured tube with bass slam, that's a challenge itself. Now if you can find one with bass slam _and_ a treble presentation that doesn't slice your eardums into bloody chunks of disintegrated flesh, that's probably worth another steak dinner.



If the GE tube finishes in your top four, I may send it to you later to keep, and you will be obliged to sing its praises.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Now this is a horse of a different color. This same multi-billion dollar company builds (or used to build) appliances that fail _regularly_ within a month of the warranty expiration. And most don't work worth a crap before they fail. I bought a house that was full of GE appliances, and every single one failed well before any logical expectation would dictate. My brother-in-law has worked for GE for over 30 years. He doesn't have a single GE appliance in his house, even though he could purchase them for a fraction of their retail price.  I _will _give kudos to GE for their jet engines -- I haven't been in a plane equipped with them where I've crashed and died yet.   And incidentally, that's the division my Bro' in law has worked.  But _quality_ and _GE_ do NOT go hand in hand in many areas of their business, and IMO, tubes are one of those areas.  They built to a price/profit point, and the electrical characteristics of those tubes were likely irrelevant as long as they made baseline specs...and margins.



I am just laughing at myself. I imagine the board room, mid-1950s, high atop the GE Skyscraper. Millionaires and scions to huge fortunes made in post-WWII America, considering the design of the lowly tube. The remaining Edison is proposing that they spare no expense, making the finest 6SN7 tube in the World, it would make Sylvania, Tung-Sol, and all the foreigners have a huge Butt-pucker. Sounder minds interceded when the second nephew, twice removed started predicting a future where only Audiophiles would crave the GE Gold Crown for their home stereo in Hi-Fidelity.

The motion on the floor was re-read: We want to build a just above minimum spec Tube for these new Televisions, on which we have a 1-year warranty. If the tube fails within 14 months, the greatest benefit to our GE dealers will be the service calls and the revenue that would generate.

So, on that day, when Thomas Edison, the 4th Earl of Dearborn was taken from the room in a straight jacket, the Board resolved from that day forward to be second from the bottom in their core industries, Appliances, Televisions, Vacuum Tubes, Military Industrial Complex industries.

To be only slightly better than "Made in Japan"... And now you know the rest of the story...Paul Harv...


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> I am just laughing at myself. I imagine the board room, mid-1950s, high atop the GE Skyscraper. Millionaires and scions to huge fortunes made in post-WWII America, considering the design of the lowly tube. The remaining Edison is proposing that they spare no expense, making the finest 6SN7 tube in the World, it would make Sylvania, Tung-Sol, and all the foreigners have a huge Butt-pucker. Sounder minds interceded when the second nephew, twice removed started predicting a future where only Audiophiles would crave the GE Gold Crown for their home stereo in Hi-Fidelity.
> 
> The motion on the floor was re-read: We want to build a just above minimum spec Tube for these new Televisions, on which we have a 1-year warranty. If the tube fails within 14 months, the greatest benefit to our GE dealers will be the service calls and the revenue that would generate.
> 
> ...



You need to cut back on the Ouzo.


----------



## Robert Padgett (Jun 28, 2019)

bcowen said:


> You need to cut back on the Ouzo.


Ommm Paaahhhh!  Yes the Greek evil water has caused me to try to Greek dance at a Greek Wedding...Haven't had any alcohol in quite some time, I AM Euphoric with TUBEZ


----------



## Paladin79

The other day @bcowen asked about the rectifiers in my Cary amp, they are SovTek as are the backup pair I was given.

I am currently listening to the GE made Eico 6sn7 in the Vali 2 but it is not my final choice. Once Bill makes his selection I will explain exactly how I chose the tubes for the experiment. Bill is a brave and confident man to bet a steak dinner on this.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The other day @bcowen asked about the rectifiers in my Cary amp, they are SovTek as are the backup pair I was given.



Sovtek?  Ugh.  A Russian GE.  

I think I have some nice Mullard GZ-32's at home.  I'll look.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am currently listening to the GE made Eico 6sn7 in the Vali 2 but it is not my final choice. Once Bill makes his selection I will explain exactly how I chose the tubes for the experiment. Bill is a brave and confident man to bet a steak dinner on this.



Are you sure those aren't Eico tubes branded as GE?  LOL!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 28, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Sovtek?  Ugh.  A Russian GE.
> 
> I think I have some nice Mullard GZ-32's at home.  I'll look.



Are you trying to bribe me? Have you got me confused with Ripper? Are you hoping I will go easy on you in my tube selection?  I can be bought you know.

Are you sure those aren't Eico tubes branded as GE? LOL!!

I will not use the Eico, it does not test as strongly as I hoped and it is not well balanced. I did find a nice GE 6sn7 GTB  though, side getter, has the small dots. It will be one of many GE tubes I test for our little "GE tubes sound awful" experiment. 

I have some excellent RCA, Melz, Foton,Mullard, Sylvania, and Tung Sol so far that could end up in my choices.

The selection process has begun. I found some decent National Unions I forgot I owned and a Ken RAD VT 231


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Have you got me confused with Ripper?



I'm not blind or deaf, and all my olfactory senses are intact, so no, I don't have you confused with @Ripper2860 .  Whew, huh?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have some excellent RCA: Cool
> Melz: Cool
> Foton: Cool
> Mullard: Strange as it may sound, I have no Mullard 6SN7/CV1988 types. So this will be a new experience.
> ...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 28, 2019)

Shame on you both.  Here I was just hanging around, minding my own business and BAM!!!!   My reputation is shot to hell like an innocent victim inadvertently caught in the crossfire of a drive-by shooting.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Shame on you both.  Here I was just hanging around, minding my own business and BAM!!!!   My reputation is shot to hell like an innocent victim inadvertently caught in the crossfire of a drive-by shooting.



You have reputations in Texas?


----------



## Ripper2860

Yes.  And they shine big and bright.


----------



## attmci (Jun 28, 2019)

Can you tell if your friends' badboy is fake or real?

Forgot to link your friend who has great rp @ It. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-RARE-P...985457&hash=item2accaf8e62:g:RtcAAOSwi~Vc50IG


----------



## Ripper2860

I have no friends.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 28, 2019)

Those are not Badboys.  Badboys have triple spiked top mica among other necessary characteristics.  And there are no VT231 true Badboys.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Those are not Badboys.  Badboys have triple spiked top mica among other necessary characteristics.  And there are no VT231 true Badboys.



That's BangyBang's site. Anything with 3 holes in the plates is a "Bad Boy" in his imaginary world. Doesn't even have to be a 6SN7 any more...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I have no friends.



I'll be your friend for $20.


----------



## Paladin79

I do have a Marconi 6sn7 on the way, from what I can read they were a subsidiary of the British General Electric Company but I hardly think that counts as a GE tube should I use it in the tube experiment. All of my tube books seem to cover US tubes only.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> I'll be your friend for $20.


$18 + one GE of choice!!


----------



## Paladin79

If @bcowen selects the GE tube as a favorite in the blind challenge such tubes could be worth as much as $3.00 each, a huge improvement!

I just wish GE had a song he could be made to sing so we put it on Youtube. Singing the Duke university fight song would probably be as bad to him since he bleeds NC blue.


----------



## bcowen (Jun 29, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> If @bcowen selects the GE tube as a favorite in the blind challenge such tubes could be worth as much as $3.00 each, a huge improvement!
> 
> I just wish GE had a song he could be made to sing so we put it on Youtube. Singing the Duke university fight song would probably be as bad to him since he bleeds NC blue.



ROFL!  I could be coerced into doing a _lot_ of embarrassing things as a consequence of losing, but singing the Duke fight song is NOT one of them.  Even humming it in private is out of the question.  

Maybe we need a tagline for GE like we have for Bose (No highs, no lows, must be Bose). Any ideas? 

"Roses are red,
If it sucks it's GE,
With a slight possibility
It's Philips ECG"

OK, needs more thought.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> $18 + one GE of choice!!



Sniper.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  I could be coerced into doing a _lot_ of embarrassing things as a consequence of losing, but singing the Duke fight song is NOT one of them.  Even humming it in private is out of the question.
> 
> Maybe we need a tagline for GE like we have for Bose (No highs, no lows, must be Bose). Any ideas?
> 
> ...



Duke, we thy anthems raise 
For all thy praises untold 
We sing for the Blue and White 
Whose colors we uphold 
Firm stand our line of blue 
For we are loyal through and through 
All for the love of old D.U. and GE too!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Duke, we thy anthems raise
> For all thy praises untold
> We sing for the Blue and White
> Whose colors we uphold
> ...




Great.  I just threw up my Captain Crunch.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 29, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Great.  I just threw up my Captain Crunch.



It is practically noon, what kind of person eats a Captain Crunch brunch anyway?  You are in the south, you should be having grits with red eyed gravy and cat head biscuits and country ham or some such. You will need your strength for the upcoming tube challenge. I have the PVC pipe and plans to insure that each tube, and pipe weighs the same. There will also be an inner lead shield to prevent X-raying the tubes. There may be an adapter with gold pins involved so that gold needs to come off to insure it does not give you a hint.

I just received 18 tubes in the mail, some all the way from Belgium but those do not count. Four GE's I will listen to for the tube challenge, one obviously made by GE for CBS, it has the dots and proper code, and a few more that i will have to research

There was a black glass Philco 6sn7GT in the batch I just received, I will have to do a bit of research, it is most likely a Sylvania but it is a very strong, good sounding tube, great balance.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 29, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Great.  I just threw up my Captain Crunch.



I thought you were an ASU alumni??


----------



## Paladin79

Bill is doomed, I have help testing 6sn7's and Morgan will help assure that all tubes are similar sounding.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Bill is doomed, I have help testing 6sn7's and Morgan will help assure that all tubes are similar sounding.



You do know that you could just send @bcowen all GE tubes and guarantee yourself a win


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> You do know that you could just send @bcowen all GE tubes and guarantee yourself a win



I thought of that as first, but just as a way to annoy Bill. He would spend listening to GE tubes hour after hour trying to tell which one sounded the worst but unfortunately I would lose the bet. The bet is he will pick a GE tube as the worst of the lot (I cannot use any Philips/ECG tubes.)  All GE guarantees I lose. Even putting a couple in the mix ups his chances of picking one toward the bottom. I am also not using any tubes with lower emission or issues that I can spot, this is all in fun and Bill has been overly kind in his help to me so if he does this, I am happy to see him bask in the glory of accomplishment.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jun 29, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Bill is doomed, I have help testing 6sn7's and Morgan will help assure that all tubes are similar sounding.


I do have a very similar looking cat (named Cat, appropriately), but I keep it away from the tubes - 2,500 km. The cat is in my house on a tiny Mediterranean island, where I just arrived on holiday, and the tubes are in Belgium. They cost the same, I reckon (as I have to have the Cat fed every couple of days, hence domestic staff _in absentia_). Yet maybe it is better not to have it interfere with my tube choices. My friend - a rather well known singing teacher and conductor in Vienna, told me that his cat could not bear with students who had less then perfect pitch, and would depart the studio screaming each time one of them was at the lesson. Bad tenors horrified his cat most. Think GE tubes, awful, what?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill is doomed, I have help testing 6sn7's and Morgan will help assure that all tubes are similar sounding.



Morgan looks like he's sitting there with the incomparable patience of a cat just waiting to see that meter needle move so he can try and snag it.


----------



## attmci (Jun 29, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Sniper.


Sorry, I should have made  myself  a little bit more clear. The $ is for me, the tube is for YOU!


----------



## Paladin79

My work with the sealing wax was a little sloppy, this being my first attempt but encased in the PVC with vent holes is an RCA 6SN7. It will undergo a few hours of testing to be sure all holds together and nothing changes. The bottom openings were sealed and stamped so there is no way I can think of to remove the tube without disturbing the wax. It is on four sides. I will use painters tape to attach numbers to each tube, they can easily be replaced for future testing.  There is very little to damage this tube in shipping now as well but all eight will be appropriately packed anyway.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I do have a very similar looking cat (named Cat, appropriately), but I keep it away from the tubes - 2,500 km. The cat is in my house on a tiny Mediterranean island, where I just arrived on holiday, and the tubes are in Belgium. They cost the same, I reckon (as I have to have the Cat fed every couple of days, hence domestic staff _in absentia_). Yet maybe it is better not to have it interfere with my tube choices. My friend - a rather well known singing teacher and conductor in Vienna, told me that his cat could not bear with students who had less then perfect pitch, and would depart the studio screaming each time one of them was at the lesson. Bad tenors horrified his cat most. Think GE tubes, awful, what?



Morgan is a female, her full name is Morgan le Fay. I have never had and problems with her being close to my tubes. She is on my work bench all the time and might steal a feather when I fletch arrows but that is about the extent of her mischief. She can walk across a chess board and not disturb a piece, she tends to do that a lot too.  We will see how poorly the GE tube comes out before very long, I am still selecting exactly which one I send on to Bill with the non GE tubes lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Morgan is a female, her full name is Morgan le Fay. I have never had and problems with her being close to my tubes. She is on my work bench all the time and might steal a feather when I fletch arrows but that is about the extent of her mischief. She can walk across a chess board and not disturb a piece, she tends to do that a lot too.  We will see how poorly the GE tube comes out before very long, I am still selecting exactly which one I send on to Bill with the non GE tubes lol.



Amazing how some cats have grace -- even amazing grace -- and some don't.  And some _really _don't. Below is my sadly departed favorite of all - Nickolai. He was a Tonkinese (cross between a Burmese and Siamese), and one of the most affectionate, personable, "gotta always be at your side" cats I've ever been around. Even people that hated cats couldn't help but like him, Richard.    But grace? Ha!  Something got lost in the DNA mix along the way. He'd walk slowly across an open floor in one room and be able to knock stuff off shelves in another.  

(sorry for the crappy pic..only one I had handy)


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My work with the sealing wax was a little sloppy, this being my first attempt but encased in the PVC with vent holes is an RCA 6SN7. It will undergo a few hours of testing to be sure all holds together and nothing changes. The bottom openings were sealed and stamped so there is no way I can think of to remove the tube without disturbing the wax. It is on four sides. I will use painters tape to attach numbers to each tube, they can easily be replaced for future testing.  There is very little to damage this tube in shipping now as well but all eight will be appropriately packed anyway.



I'm just hoping I don't get a visit from the ATF about the time these deliver. LOL!


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Sorry, I should have made  myself  a little bit more clear. The $ is for me, the tube is for YOU!



I'm flattered by the thought and gesture, but @Ripper2860 actually_ likes_ GE tubes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 29, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I'm just hoping I don't get a visit from the ATF about the time these deliver. LOL![/QUOTE
> 
> I now have the test tube in my BH Crack, it is not getting hot enough to cause any issues. They are safe, I think, but please do not think you have to run each of these tubes ten hours before you listen to them lol.



Oh and one of the GE's is not sounding too shabby, it has the dots and everything, just trust me on this. The way I am sealing these tubes I may be listening them in the PVC for the rest of their tubby little lives.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 29, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I'm flattered by the thought and gesture, but @Ripper2860 actually_ likes_ GE tubes.



Sure.  When they are 7N7s made by Sylvania and have all the Frankie traits.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh and one of the GE's is not sounding too shabby...



That's probably the nicest thing I've ever heard anyone say about a GE tube.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh and one of the GE's is not sounding too shabby, it has the dots and everything, just trust me on this. The way I am sealing these tubes I may be listening them in the PVC for the rest of their tubby little lives.



Should I give each one of these the standard 100 hours of break-in, or are you going to do that for me?    And just to be sure there's no monkey business going on here, I'll give 'em all a thorough run through on my newest toy.  Isn't she beautiful?


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> I'm flattered by the thought and gesture, but @Ripper2860 actually_ likes_ GE tubes.


Pot, kettle, black. GE.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Should I give each one of these the standard 100 hours of break-in, or are you going to do that for me?    And just to be sure there's no monkey business going on here, I'll give 'em all a thorough run through on my newest toy.  Isn't she beautiful?


The tubes are all well seasoned and mature, no 100 hour tube voodoo needed.  You are free to use that fine looking tube tester as you wish though.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Pot, kettle, black. GE.



Funny how appending one letter ('C') to GE takes you from the worst tubes ever made to some of the best tubes ever made.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Funny how appending one letter ('C') to GE takes you from the worst tubes ever made to some of the best tubes ever made.


CGE? Is that a current production tube???


----------



## bcowen (Jun 30, 2019)

So finally got around last night to giving one of @Paladin79 's fave tube types a try. These are the Hytron 7A4's, slightly cheaper (per letter) than @Old Deaf Donkey 's CBS versions   and not the Sylvania military versions that Tom speaks of (although these Hytrons were probably made by Sylvania anyway):





On first listen with my usual fare of questionable music material, they sounded pretty good. Not in Frankie replacement territory, but still pretty darn good.  Then I put on this, and...





OMG!  Friggin awesome!  Then this:





And another OMG!  Goosebumps even.  Slightly (_very_ slightly) gritty in the upper mids/lower treble, but I have only a couple hours on these tubes and I have yet to hear a new, unused tube that doesn't improve with some playing time. So with "break-in voodoo" being real or only a figment of the imagination I _don't_ have (according to @Ripper2860 ), these need more play time before a final verdict can be reached...for my ears anyway.  As of right now, the Frankie still keeps its seat at the throne of the rock and metal altar. But for less, um, rambunctious(?) tune-age, these 7A4's may (_may_) be the ticket to heaven.  More time will tell....


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> CGE? Is that a current production tube???







In this case the end would be at the end, not at the beginning, or said another way, at the opposite of the end.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 30, 2019)

bcowen said:


> So finally got around last night to giving one of @Paladin79 's fave tube types a try. These are the Hytron 7A4's, slightly cheaper (per letter) than @Old Deaf Donkey 's CBS versions stuck_out_tongue and not the Sylvania military versions that Tom speaks of (although these Hytrons were probably made by Sylvania anyway):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bill if you keep at it you will learn about tubes yet. 

Your music selections are not as bad as I would have suspected. I tried some of the CBS 7A4's myself this morn and I still prefer the VT-192's but i will give them more time and see how I like them.

You do know you can give that adapter a slight turn and straighten it out on the Vali 2 right? The models I have allow enough slack for that.

Did I not mention you need to listen to this album over and over during the upcoming 6sn7 challenge?  I will have to write that in on the next challenge. I believe after eight listens it starts to sound pretty good, but I never quite made it that far. The title may be hard to read, Trout Mask Replica by Captain Beefheart and the magic band.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill if you keep at it you will learn about tubes yet.


Your prediction may be overly optimistic.  



Paladin79 said:


> Your music selections are not as bad as I would have suspected.



I thing it's totally fair to say that some of the music I listen to _doesn't_ suck.  



Paladin79 said:


> You do know you can give that adapter a slight turn and straighten it out on the Vali 2 right?



Mine won't. In fact, I made the socket saver for it specifically to orient it in a 12:00 - 6:00 position relative to the accompanying pieces of Schiit, but I didn't get the angle just right. Math confuses me.  



Paladin79 said:


> Did I not mention you need to listen to this album over and over during the upcoming 6sn7 challenge?  I will have to write that in on the next challenge. I believe after eight listens it starts to sound pretty good, but I never quite made it that far. The title may be hard to read, Trout Mask Replica by Captain Beefheart and the magic band.



Cannot find this on Tidal. Gonna have to suggest something else. Not sure I remember how to "buy" music.  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 30, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Your prediction may be overly optimistic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just searched myself, that is so bizarre that it is not on there. I am pretty sure it is in the top 50 or 60 greatest albums of all time.

Clear Spot is on Tidal, the song Her Eyes are a Blue Million Miles was in The Big Lebowski. Also the songs Long Neck Bottles and Big Eyed Beans from Venus off of that album are interesting.

I really like the song you mentioned by Sade, I may have to change out a GE tube to listen to that one again lol.

I am getting a bit of noise at high frequencies on that song, I thought it was the GE tube but I even switched to different headphones and dual solid state amps coming straight out of the Gumby and got the same result. I may try another DAC later today and see how it sounds. Great song and performance though.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I really like the song you mentioned by Sade, I may have to change out a GE tube to listen to that one again lol.
> 
> I am getting a bit of noise at high frequencies on that song, I thought it was the GE tube but I even switched to different headphones and dual solid state amps coming straight out of the Gumby and got the same result. I may try another DAC later today and see how it sounds. Great song and performance though.



If it's just background venue noise that you're hearing, it's in the recording. You should hear this on LP.  As good as the digital recording is, the analog version puts her in the room with you.  And although "Smooth Operator" on the same LP was way overdone on the radio back in the day, it sounds pretty awesome too.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> So finally got around last night to giving one of @Paladin79 's fave tube types a try. These are the Hytron 7A4's, slightly cheaper (per letter) than @Old Deaf Donkey 's CBS versions   and not the Sylvania military versions that Tom speaks of (although these Hytrons were probably made by Sylvania anyway):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could you use a similar adapter for a pair of these? Using 1 triode on each tube?!? 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Western-...es-Black-Plate-D-Getter-1-2-Dead/283525489714


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Could you use a similar adapter for a pair of these? Using 1 triode on each tube?!?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Western-...es-Black-Plate-D-Getter-1-2-Dead/283525489714



I suppose, but that ad comes across as incredibly moronic. What are the chances of 5 identical tubes all having one totally dead triode with the other triode working?  Of course, no test readings are provided on the working triode. It may be near dead too, which could at least make _some_ sense. My guess is that either his Triplett is functionally toasted, he has a broken contact or gunk in his noval socket, or he has failed in entirety to RTFM.    I love his user name though: fng2u.  Must mean 'f*n nasty garbage to you' LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

I discovered that a child proof top from a large pill bottle fits perfectly over the top of the PVC pipe I am using for the 6sn7 experiment, it will save me some time and I can just glue it, and use sealing wax on the underneath edge instead of filling the top with sealing wax as originally planned. I also have a way to strengthen the internals structure of the pipe. These tubes may go through a few hands so I want a system that will hold up well.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> So finally got around last night to giving one of @Paladin79 's fave tube types a try. These are the Hytron 7A4's, slightly cheaper (per letter) than @Old Deaf Donkey 's CBS versions   and not the Sylvania military versions that Tom speaks of (although these Hytrons were probably made by Sylvania anyway):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One of my VT-192 Sylvanias from 1943 has a similar shiny/polished band at the top of the metal base. I have not seen a similar feature on any other Loctal tubes. Those Sylvanias from 1943 are perhaps the best sounding tubes to me that I have tried. Do you know the productionyear of your Hytron-branded 7A4s?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I discovered that a child proof top from a large pill bottle fits perfectly over the top of the PVC pipe I am using for the 6sn7 experiment, it will save me some time and I can just glue it, and use sealing wax on the underneath edge instead of filling the top with sealing wax as originally planned. I also have a way to strengthen the internals structure of the pipe. These tubes may go through a few hands so I want a system that will hold up well.



No need to glue it.  The child proof feature is enough to foil me.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> One of my VT-192 Sylvanias from 1943 has a similar shiny/polished band at the top of the metal base. I have not seen a similar feature on any other Loctal tubes. Those Sylvanias from 1943 are perhaps the best sounding tubes to me that I have tried. Do you know the productionyear of your Hytron-branded 7A4s?



I'll have to look when I get home tonight. The Hytron label is in decent shape on a couple and almost gone on a couple. I remember seeing a number on one of them, but I think it's the EIA code.  I'll have to give them a close study to see if I can find any other markings.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 1, 2019)

bcowen said:


> No need to glue it.  The child proof feature is enough to foil me.



I thought of that but you might hand them off to someone else to open, I suspect there is a master criminal lurking beneath that benign exterior you like to present.

These are looking more and more like pipe bombs every day, maybe I should show my neighbors the next time they set off fireworks at midnight on a Sunday night.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I thought of that but you might hand them off to someone else to open, I suspect there is a master criminal lurking beneath that benign exterior you like to present.



You mean it's _that _obvious?  Crap.  I gotta get more devious somehow.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You mean it's _that _obvious?  Crap.  I gotta get more devious somehow.



Speaking of devious, there are so many differences with tube pins, I think all will extend from the bottom with gold pins and red bases now, I want all of them to look identical.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> These are looking more and more like pipe bombs every day,



Perhaps FedEx or UPS would be a better carrier choice than the USPS.  Hate for you to get arrested when you drop them off, and would hate even more for *me* to get arrested when I ship them back (or to someone else).


----------



## Paladin79




----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 1, 2019)

Oooops.  Just thought of this...

@Paladin79  -- please be sure to place a 'This End Up' label on the challenge tubes you are sending to @bcowen .  We don't want other challenge participants to wait an inordinate period of time for their turn.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 1, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Oooops.  Just thought of this...
> 
> @Paladin79  -- please be sure to place a 'This End Up' label on the challenge tubes you are sending to @bcowen .  We don't want other challenge participants to wait an inordinate period of time for their turn.



I also need to convince him that all the tubes were run for 100 hours before he got them. As long as he can count to eight and I draw a line under the bottom of the one and eight, he may figure out up from down.

When I am done the tubes will be child proof and able to withstand the most rigorous testing. I have more arriving today, I like choices. Bill will not have to worry about cleaning the pins since there will be brand new tube bases with gold plated pins sticking out. If they make it through all of Bill's rituals, normal people should be safe to listen to them. You can only be truly happy when you are working toward a goal. My goal is to have Bill staying awake at night wondering where I found some of the mystery tubes I will be sending off to him.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I also need to convince him that all the tubes were run for 100 hours before he got them. As long as he can count to eight and I draw a line under the bottom of the one and eight, he may figure out up from down.
> 
> When I am done the tubes will be child proof and able to withstand the most rigorous testing. I have more arriving today, I like choices. Bill will not have to worry about cleaning the pins since there will be brand new tube bases with gold plated pins sticking out. If they make it through all of Bill's rituals, normal people should be safe to listen to them. You can only be truly happy when you are working toward a goal. My goal is to have Bill staying awake at night wondering where I found some of the mystery tubes I will be sending off to him.



The only thing I'll be laying awake and worrying about at night is how long it will take Schiit to repair my Lyr after it blows up.


----------



## Ripper2860

And picking PVC fragments from your popcorn ceiling.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


>



LOL!  I always liked FedEx's motto best:  "When it absolutely, positively has to be there eventually."


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The only thing I'll be laying awake and worrying about at night is how long it will take Schiit to repair my Lyr after it blows up.


It has a five year warranty. You could try to sue the tube makers but some of the companies have not been around since the 40’s.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> And picking PVC fragments from your popcorn ceiling.



I covered that popcorn with a lay-in ceiling grid a long time ago.  You'd be surprised how cheap you can get the panels at Goodwill.  So they have a stain or two...BFD.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It has a five year warranty. You could try to sue the tube makers but some of the companies have not been around since the 40’s.



I'll just sue @Ripper2860 instead.  Not because any of it would be his fault, but just 'cause it'd be fun.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 1, 2019)

> *What Is a Frivolous Lawsuit?*
> 
> A frivolous lawsuit is any lawsuit that is filed with the intention of harassing, annoying, or disturbing the opposite party. It may also be defined as any lawsuit in which the plaintiff knows that there is little or no chance of the lawsuit succeeding if pursued in court.



My attorney thanks you for being so honest and upfront.  Your post above will come in handy in my counter-suit should you decide to pursue such a flawed strategy.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> And picking PVC fragments from your popcorn ceiling.



Now the test is for the agreed upon eight tubes, but I may send @bcowen a bonus tube, it is only to be plugged in if he correctly guesses the GE tube. By the time the smoke clears Bill will have forgotten about the contest, and which planet he lives on, and how many fingers he used to have.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The only thing I'll be laying awake and worrying about at night is how long it will take Schiit to repair my Lyr after it blows up.


 You have a Vali 2 right? That is the amp I use before the tubes go into more expensive amps. That and an Aune or three. Built in tube DAC. I have repaired a couple so if they go down I will fix them again.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 1, 2019)

I'm sure Bill will especially appreciate the free burn-in countdown timer affixed to the tubes.  A free gift for his efforts.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm sure Bill will especially appreciate the free burn-in countdown timer affixed to the tubes.  A free gift for his efforts.



My clocks tend to look like this, although I am not so sure steampunk goes with childproof pvc pipe bombs.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 1, 2019)

Throw a pair of of dull side cutters in the box.  Make sure you use wires that are all the same color, and set the 'burn-in' timer to start with 25 seconds remaining after he opens the box.  No pressure.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Throw a pair of of dull side cutters in the box.  Make sure you use wires that are all the same color, and set the 'burn-in' timer to start with 25 seconds remaining after he opens the box.  No pressure.



Once Bill is done you will know it is safe for you to plug in the eight tubes. This is like giving a baby a bath, if you put it in the water and it turns red, you know it is too hot for your elbow. I think that is how you do that, it has been a while for me.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> My attorney thanks you for being so honest and upfront.  Your post above will come in handy in my counter-suit should you decide to pursue such a flawed strategy.



Oh, I love this part:






Google: directions to courthouse.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You have a Vali 2 right? That is the amp I use before the tubes go into more expensive amps. That and an Aune or three. Built in tube DAC. I have repaired a couple so if they go down I will fix them again.



Not any more. I felt sorry for a new, recent graduate engineer at work and sold it to him for a good deal. He had one of those cheap little Chinese amps that blew up a month after he got it.  He's been delighted with the Vali 2, especially since I gave him a nice Telefunken 6DJ8 to go with it.  I'm down to the Lyr 3 now as the only headphone amp.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Once Bill is done you will know it is safe for you to plug in the eight tubes. This is like giving a baby a bath, if you put it in the water and it turns red, you know it is too hot for your elbow. I think that is how you do that, it has been a while for me.



Bill will test all pipe bombs in either the Hickok or the Weston prior to plugging them into the Lyr.  This is not a "trust of Tom" thing.  It's a "Bill is anal" thing.   

I may solder some wires between the pins before I send them to @Ripper2860 though....just for fun.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 1, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Not any more. I felt sorry for a new, recent graduate engineer at work and sold it to him for a good deal. He had one of those cheap little Chinese amps that blew up a month after he got it.  He's been delighted with the Vali 2, especially since I gave him a nice Telefunken 6DJ8 to go with it.  I'm down to the Lyr 3 now as the only headphone amp.


Well crap, I was considering building another Crack in solid Cherry with shiny copper, but you have to use an adapter. It will handle the 6sn7, and most anything else you throw at it.  I will figure out something, I hate for you to risk the only headphone amp you own. Maybe I can find a nice Microzotyl cheap and send that along with the pipe bombs, er tubes.

OMG a guy I buy tubes from all the time lists a Marconi tube, it was GE after all, now I need to buy a Canadian Marconi tube if I want the real deal. I will call the guy up tomorrow, he even knew what I was doing and I had already purchased several GE from him lol.

Luckily a lot of what I buy is tax deductible, I may win the steak dinner battle and lose the war otherwise.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 1, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I may solder some wires between the pins before I send them to @Ripper2860 though....just for fun.



Hah!!  Nice try, I'm not participating in this little charade.  My ego is far to delicate to risk the extreme humiliation.  Besides, I need the time to add to my library of ridiculing posts in case you pick the GE as the best sounding tube!!  So far I only have a selection of 132 posts in my 'Humiliate Bill' repertoire.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Hah!!  Nice try, I'm not participating in this little charade.  My ego is far to delicate to risk the extreme humiliation.  Besides, I need the time to add to my library of ridiculing posts in case you pick the GE as the best sounding tube!!  So far I only have a selection of 132 posts in my 'Humiliate Bill' repertoire.



Oh it would be fun, you could show Bill how it is done or not done as the case may be.  You need not bet a steak dinner even.


----------



## Ripper2860

This is so cool!  As Jesse Pinkman would say ...



*SCIENCE!!!!*


----------



## Ripper2860

I'll play the role of the accounting firm exec with the briefcase that holds the envelope that reveals the actual tubes ensconced in the numbered sarcophagi.


----------



## TK16

Lyr rolling thread is dead, think I'll hang out here awhile.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> Those are not Badboys.  Badboys have triple spiked top mica among other necessary characteristics.  And there are no VT231 true Badboys.


@Ripper2860 is Brilliant. The Melz 1578 arrived and the pins are smaller than the sockets. On his advice I bent the sockets to a smaller diameter, and no contact issues now.  MelzonianDreams... on the Vali 2, it has found a permanent home...


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> One of my VT-192 Sylvanias from 1943 has a similar shiny/polished band at the top of the metal base. I have not seen a similar feature on any other Loctal tubes. Those Sylvanias from 1943 are perhaps the best sounding tubes to me that I have tried. Do you know the productionyear of your Hytron-branded 7A4s?



Well, the Hytrons were no help. Only intact lettering (beyond the logo) was on top, 7A4 XXL with GOB, HOB, and FOB which I believe were probably just lot numbers.

The Hytron matches identically internally to a Raytheon though that is mostly readable.  The 280 in the first line is Raytheon's EIA code, and the number beneath it is 617. I'm no expert at reading these, but I believe the 6 is the year of manufacture, likely '46 but possibly '56 with the 17 denoting the week.  



 

Then with entirely different internal construction than those (but matching each other) are a GE and a Philco. May be hard to see, but the diameter of the round part of the plate is much smaller in these than the Hytron/Raytheon. 


 

Then there's the VT-192's. Same internally as the Hytron/Raytheon. Same size plates, 3/4round bottom mica, and large rectangular top mica:


 

Then I have a half dozen Sylvania and Westinghouse branded ones that are different entirely than all of these, mostly in the mica shapes and configs and also the length of the plates.  So if I had to guess, I'd say these Hytrons were mid-40's production, but take that FWIW based on my limited knowledge here.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well crap, I was considering building another Crack in solid Cherry with shiny copper, but you have to use an adapter. It will handle the 6sn7, and most anything else you throw at it.  I will figure out something, I hate for you to risk the only headphone amp you own. Maybe I can find a nice Microzotyl cheap and send that along with the pipe bombs, er tubes.
> 
> OMG a guy I buy tubes from all the time lists a Marconi tube, it was GE after all, now I need to buy a Canadian Marconi tube if I want the real deal. I will call the guy up tomorrow, he even knew what I was doing and I had already purchased several GE from him lol.
> 
> Luckily a lot of what I buy is tax deductible, I may win the steak dinner battle and lose the war otherwise.



I'll put a bid in on this. Guess I'll need to cut a hole in the top for a tube if I win though. ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiit-Val...810874?hash=item2cedf4e5fa:g:-8sAAOSw8eBdGf1e


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> @Ripper2860 is Brilliant. The Melz 1578 arrived and the pins are smaller than the sockets. On his advice I bent the sockets to a smaller diameter, and no contact issues now.  MelzonianDreams... on the Vali 2, it has found a permanent home...



Glad you didn't follow his usual advice of using a hammer.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'll put a bid in on this. Guess I'll need to cut a hole in the top for a tube if I win though. ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiit-Val...810874?hash=item2cedf4e5fa:g:-8sAAOSw8eBdGf1e


Lol you best hope for a B stock Vali 2. Tomorrow I will look around some, I would love similar amps so I can A/B test some 6sN7’s.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Lol you best hope for a B stock Vali 2. Tomorrow I will look around some, I would love similar amps so I can A/B test some 6sN7’s.



No B-stocks at Schiit right now. Just emailed a guy on Audiomart that has one listed. We'll see what he comes back with.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Hah!!  Nice try, I'm not participating in this little charade.



Wuss.


----------



## bcowen

These Ebay sellers crack me up sometimes.  You can buy a brand new, full warranty Loki from Schiit for $149. Or you can spend $80 more to get this one from some yokel with a whopping  feedback score of 30, no warranty, and no friggin' guarantee you'll ever even get it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiit-Lok...108505?hash=item340defa4d9:g:BNgAAOSw-49dGe86






But wait.  There's more!  This one has not only 3 channels, but 3 sets of RCA inputs.  And if you order now, you'll even get 3 digital inputs.  Absolutely free!  And as a final bonus, you get a Class A amplifier included, but only if you order NOW.  Now, damnit. Nevermind what I said above...this thing is a STEAL!!   I'm simply LMAO.....


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 1, 2019)

Oooooh.  They had me at 'Bass Gyrator'!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Oooooh.  They had me at 'Bass Gyrator'!!



Mine doesn't have a bass gyrator. And I'd probably be pissed as schiit about it if I knew what it was.


----------



## Logistics

Ripper2860 said:


> audiophile-class Soundblaster Pro audio card
> audiophile-class Soundblaster
> Soundblaster



Why do you post ambiguously about it?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jul 2, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Well, the Hytrons were no help. Only intact lettering (beyond the logo) was on top, 7A4 XXL with GOB, HOB, and FOB which I believe were probably just lot numbers.
> 
> The Hytron matches identically internally to a Raytheon though that is mostly readable.  The 280 in the first line is Raytheon's EIA code, and the number beneath it is 617. I'm no expert at reading these, but I believe the 6 is the year of manufacture, likely '46 but possibly '56 with the 17 denoting the week.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this detailed info. Which one sounds the best to you? Apart of the CBS-branded ones, which have a distinct high mids and treble (which may not be to everyone's liking), I have 10+ of Sylvanias 1945/5 in exactly the same boxes as in your picture, with the same contract # and same dates, 3 Sylvanias in 1943 Signal Corps boxes, tube markings and bases slightly different, and a couple of Philco. To my ears, Sylvanias are the best, and the ones from 1943 in US Signal Corps boxes are the best among them.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thank you for this detailed info. Which one sounds the best to you? Apart of the CBS-branded ones, which have a distinct high mids and treble (which may not be to everyone's liking), I have 10+ of Sylvanias 1945/5 in exactly the same boxes as in your picture, with the same contract # and same dates, 3 Sylvanias in 1943 Signal Corps boxes, tube markings and bases slightly different, and a couple of Philco. To my ears, Sylvanias are the best, and the ones from 1943 in US Signal Corps boxes are the best among them.



To be honest, I haven't given all these a thorough evaluation.  I have 5 different pairs I can match up that have identical internal configurations but different external branding in some cases.  I have the Hytrons in now, and that grittiness in the lower treble has improved to the point I don't really hear it anymore. But after the initial wow factor on 'gentler' music I got kind of tired of them with the presentation in that area -- too pronounced and forward and higher in amplitude than the rest of the frequency spectrum. With some dark sounding 'phones these may be the ticket, but not with the Aeons for the long term and across multiple music types.  I only gave a very brief listen to the '45 VT-192's when I first got them, and need to put them in next for some extended listening (and yes, Tom, some break-in voodoo ).  After that I'll try the Sylvanias with the tall plates and the notched and skinny top/bottom micas (a couple of those are Westinghouse branded).  Same problem with those on the markings though...most are very faint or rubbed off altogether so it may be tough to determine the manufacturing data.  I'll look moire closely when I whip them out again.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> To be honest, I haven't given all these a thorough evaluation.  I have 5 different pairs I can match up that have identical internal configurations but different external branding in some cases.  I have the Hytrons in now, and that grittiness in the lower treble has improved to the point I don't really hear it anymore. But after the initial wow factor on 'gentler' music I got kind of tired of them with the presentation in that area -- too pronounced and forward and higher in amplitude than the rest of the frequency spectrum. With some dark sounding 'phones these may be the ticket, but not with the Aeons for the long term and across multiple music types.  I only gave a very brief listen to the '45 VT-192's when I first got them, and need to put them in next for some extended listening (and yes, Tom, some break-in voodoo ).  After that I'll try the Sylvanias with the tall plates and the notched and skinny top/bottom micas (a couple of those are Westinghouse branded).  Same problem with those on the markings though...most are very faint or rubbed off altogether so it may be tough to determine the manufacturing data.  I'll look moire closely when I whip them out again.



Just accept that the VT 192's are wonderful sounding and be done with it lol. I have not heard the 1943's but the 1945's are quite good. 

Tube sound does not change much for me over break in but that may be just me. How does one recall on one day what they heard compared to a week later or a month later?  Are you running the same music in the same sequence? Are all things the same with your amplifier and source material? I run a Gumby and am told I should let that run round the clock, I do not so maybe later in the day it sounds better. I think temperament on a given day might make a difference, some days I have little time and can  only listen for an hour. On other days I can search and search and find the perfect song that sounds so good yet on another day does the sound move me the same way?  When ODD kicks back with a nice glass of wine and relaxes, is that the same as listening at 9 AM when you know you are about to start your day? YMMV but those are my thoughts anyway.


----------



## Ripper2860

Logistics said:


> Why do you post ambiguously about it?



There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about my post The SB Pro is 'audiophile-class' and a definite upgrade from the SB16.  The new technical advances offered by the SB Pro firmly places it into the realm of elite and revolutionary products such as the Pocket Fisherman, Slinky, and original K-Cup.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Tube sound does not change much for me over break in but that may be just me.



I'm pretty sure that's just you.  LOL!!

In my experience, some tubes change very little, and some change quite a bit as they break-in over the first few dozen hours.  I'm not a scientist or an engineer by any stretch of the imagination, but just on a logical basis a new (old stock) tube may have some extraneous gas in it initially that burns off or is absorbed by the getter after the cathode heats for a while. With manufacturing techniques back then, it's logical to assume that the cathode coating was not perfectly even and of precision thickness from end to end -- thicker areas would burn off faster than thinner areas as the tube was used. Same with metallurgy -- the purity and consistency was likely not precise, and after high temperature exposure the alloys would likely begin to migrate and disperse more evenly over time. I think there are several factors that could affect the sound of the tube as it is used on an initial basis, but that's just me.    No desire on my part to hash this out forever. You may be entirely correct that there is NO change in the mechanical or electrical characteristics of the tube itself and the only changes are psychoacoustic and/or environmental influences.  But I may also be correct that there is some change beyond the external factors, and most likely the reality is somewhere in between.  I'm leaving now to work on my correctly oriented dual-tube adapter adapter.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'm pretty sure that's just you.  LOL!!
> 
> In my experience, some tubes change very little, and some change quite a bit as they break-in over the first few dozen hours.  I'm not a scientist or an engineer by any stretch of the imagination, but just on a logical basis a new (old stock) tube may have some extraneous gas in it initially that burns off or is absorbed by the getter after the cathode heats for a while. With manufacturing techniques back then, it's logical to assume that the cathode coating was not perfectly even and of precision thickness from end to end -- thicker areas would burn off faster than thinner areas as the tube was used. Same with metallurgy -- the purity and consistency was likely not precise, and after high temperature exposure the alloys would likely begin to migrate and disperse more evenly over time. I think there are several factors that could affect the sound of the tube as it is used on an initial basis, but that's just me.    No desire on my part to hash this out forever. You may be entirely correct that there is NO change in the mechanical or electrical characteristics of the tube itself and the only changes are psychoacoustic and/or environmental influences.  But I may also be correct that there is some change beyond the external factors, and most likely the reality is somewhere in between.  I'm leaving now to work on my correctly oriented dual-tube adapter adapter.



As a tube gets older there are some changes, and they are generally measurable. My background is science and engineering, I do not do pseudo science.

Here is a great add on Ebay, I may have to try this to dispose of some of the GE tubes I am currently testing!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUNG-SOL-6...847138?hash=item4b63bc87e2:g:0bQAAOSwRI1cy0gY

I have some miscellaneous tube boxes I could use.


----------



## Logistics

Ripper2860 said:


> There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about my post The SB Pro is 'audiophile-class' and a definite upgrade from the SB16.  The new technical advances offered by the SB Pro firmly places it into the realm of elite and revolutionary products such as the Pocket Fisherman, Slinky, and original K-Cup.



Oh, you were speaking literally, of THE SBPro?!  You're my new hero!  Actually, you make me wonder, though as I have a thread, here wherein I refreshed an SB16 with new caps.  But I didnt really, refresh it the way I wanted to with films and such.  I may have an SB 1.5, but never ran across an sbpro.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about my post The SB Pro is 'audiophile-class' and a definite upgrade from the SB16.  The new technical advances offered by the SB Pro firmly places it into the realm of elite and revolutionary products such as the Pocket Fisherman, Slinky, and original K-Cup.



And you left out Billy Bass? Hopefully that was a simple oversight and not intentional.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 2, 2019)

Logistics said:


> Oh, you were speaking literally, of THE SBPro?! You're my new hero! Actually, you make me wonder, though as I have a thread, here wherein I refreshed an SB16 with new caps. But I didnt really, refresh it the way I wanted to with films and such. I may have an SB 1.5, but never ran across an sbpro.



I was kidding.  The SB Pro (there was actually a Sound Blaster Pro) was definitely a very good card in its time, but time marches on.  (I really liked my Gravis sound card better, but SB was very nice).  I was posting tongue-in-cheek at @bcowen by suggesting I was still using my 90's desktop CPU as opposed to a laptop and acting as if it were a leading edge music server.   Windows 3.11, 512KB RAM, Pentium I, a SB soundcard, and dual Voodoo cards in SLI mode.  Those were the days!!   



bcowen said:


> And you left out Billy Bass? Hopefully that was a simple oversight and not intentional.



Why of course.  How could I have possibly overlooked Billy Big Mouth ...


----------



## Ripper2860

TK16 said:


> Lyr rolling thread is dead, think I'll hang out here awhile.



There goes the neighborhood!!


----------



## bochawa (Jul 2, 2019)

Dual 7A4 adapter arrived sooner than expected.  Haven't had much time to listen, but it doesn't sound bad.  Not sure if it's a huge improvement over the 6SN7.


----------



## rgmffn

bcowen said:


> I'll put a bid in on this. Guess I'll need to cut a hole in the top for a tube if I win though. ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiit-Val...810874?hash=item2cedf4e5fa:g:-8sAAOSw8eBdGf1e


I have one of these. I haven't listened to it in well over a yr. I pulled it out and hooked it up just for Schiits & grins, and I was amazed. It sounds pretty GD good!


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Lyr rolling thread is dead, think I'll hang out here awhile.



That's 'cause you guys bought up all the $800/pair tubes already.  Nothing left to talk about.  

Here we spend more on the adapters than the tubes....


----------



## bcowen

rgmffn said:


> I have one of these. I haven't listened to it in well over a yr. I pulled it out and hooked it up just for Schiits & grins, and I was amazed. It sounds pretty GD good!



I read a little on these and learned that there actually *is* a tube, it's just internal.  Must be one of those flying lead tubes?  Haven't seen a picture of the internals so just guessing.  Makes tube rolling a bit more cumbersome, but if you can solder there are some really good flying lead tubes that can be had for cheap.


----------



## Paladin79

bochawa said:


> Dual 7A4 adapter arrived sooner than expected.  Haven't had much time to listen, but it doesn't sound bad.  Not sure if it's a huge improvement over the 6SN7.



Did you get the VT-192's I forget?

Did you not notice a difference in channel separation? Often we have to try several sets to get decent SQ but the VT-192's are pretty good.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's 'cause you guys bought up all the $800/pair tubes already.  Nothing left to talk about.
> 
> Here we spend more on the adapters than the tubes....



I have forgone adapters in order to build tube concealment devices. It is a long story, and a boring one, but it involves @bcowen  so that is probably all I need say.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 2, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I read a little on these and learned that there actually *is* a tube, it's just internal.  Must be one of those flying lead tubes?  Haven't seen a picture of the internals so just guessing.  Makes tube rolling a bit more cumbersome, but if you can solder there are some really good flying lead tubes that can be had for cheap.



That is the circuit upon which the Schiit Coaster amps are based I do believe.  Notice the words Vali Mini on the blank board in the left photo?  I know a bit about them since I was most likely the first person outside of Schiit to get one going once I discovered an error in the Bom and schematic. I want to say there are eight or nine of us now who have built them. There is a thread pertaining to these and I even incorporated one in a couple of headphone stands for Ripper. I went so far as to build one into a flying saucer for my granddaughter.

Part of my tube matching setup for these particular tubes will be used in the 6sn7 challenge but I will not go into details till after Bill picks his tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> but it involves @bcowen  so that is probably all I need say.



Then obviously a very good thing.  Go Tom Go!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> That is the circuit upon which the Schiit Coaster amps are based I do believe.  Notice the words Vali Mini on the blank board in the left photo?  I know a bit about them since I was most likely the first person outside of Schiit to get one going once I discovered an error in the Bom and schematic. I want to say there are eight or nine of us now who have built them. There is a thread pertaining to these and I even incorporated one in a couple of headphone stands for Ripper. I went so far as to build one into a flying saucer for my granddaughter.
> 
> Part of my tube matching setup for these particular tubes will be used in the 6sn7 challenge but I will not go into details till after Bill picks his tubes.



What are those tube types?


----------



## Robert Padgett (Jul 2, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> I was kidding.  The SB Pro (there was actually a Sound Blaster Pro) was definitely a very good card in its time, but time marches on.  (I really liked my Gravis sound card better, but SB was very nice).  I was posting tongue-in-cheek at @bcowen by suggesting I was still using my 90's desktop CPU as opposed to a laptop and acting as if it were a leading edge music server.   Windows 3.11, 512KB RAM, Pentium I, a SB soundcard, and dual Voodoo cards in SLI mode.  Those were the days!!
> 
> 
> 
> Why of course.  How could I have possibly overlooked Billy Big Mouth ...



www.ebay.com/itm/HIFI-AUX-Stereo-Earphone-Amplifier-Audio-AMP-Headphone-Amplifier-for-Smart-Phone/123218825679

Now when you start talking about Pro Audio, this is the affordable audiophile choice instead of one of those expensive DAPs


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 2, 2019)

bcowen said:


> What are those tube types?




6418 is one tube type that can be used.

You can buy the Coaster boards from Schiit for $12 for four as I recall. They post the Bom and schematic but you are on your own, they do not support it but I have helped several people with the build. This is not the first amp a person should build if they want to try DIY.  I made this one so that the LED's reacted with the music and changed colors. 

Anyway this was based on the original Vali so I guess it is not too far off topic, and you can roll the tubes, but you have to un-solder them. I made one board with sockets so I could plug in tubes under test.


----------



## bochawa

Paladin79 said:


> Did you get the VT-192's I forget?
> 
> Did you not notice a difference in channel separation? Often we have to try several sets to get decent SQ but the VT-192's are pretty good.


These are just some random Sylvania's I got from eBay - not sure what year they were made, and they are slightly different construction from each other.  I have some RCA tubes on the way, both are supposed to be from '52.  The separation seems a little better than the new Tung-Sol 6SN7 tube I have, but overall SQ didn't impress me as much.

Side note: my adapter was off by about 30 degrees, but I was able to loosen the center screw and align it with the amp.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 2, 2019)

bochawa said:


> These are just some random Sylvania's I got from eBay - not sure what year they were made, and they are slightly different construction from each other.  I have some RCA tubes on the way, both are supposed to be from '52.  The separation seems a little better than the new Tung-Sol 6SN7 tube I have, but overall SQ didn't impress me as much.
> 
> Side note: my adapter was off by about 30 degrees, but I was able to loosen the center screw and align it with the amp.


Yep, I turned each of my adapters so they lined up better.

It took me a while to find 7A4's I really liked, same with the 6J5 octal single triode tubes. Once you find them though, you really have something that sounds quite a bit different than the 6SN7 IMHO.

Here is more info on the Vali Mini, Coaster amp:

https://www.schiit.com/coaster

Jason was kind enough to mention me in a chapter concerning said amp.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jul 2, 2019)

@Paladin79 Two things. First, I completely agree with your view that different tubes sound to the same person differently even with the same equipment and same music, depending on other factors: mood, as you mention, other psychological factors (to me, e.g. novelty of sound signature is but one of them) but also influenced by the "objective factors" such as inner climate of the room, atmospheric pressure, and biochemical condition of the body. I think I have someone in the family who knows something about the latter professionally, and I shall enquire.

Now, about need to run the tubes that have been dormant for a long time for some hours to make sure that the gas residue is absorbed by the getter. @bcowen mentioned that recently, and before that, I posted the same assumption that was conveyed to me by a Russian engineer from who I have bought some tubes. With all due respect, it is enough to look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getter; this offers the following position with 5 references: "_the inner surfaces of the container release absorbed gases for a long time after the vacuum is established. The getter continually removes this residual gas as it is produced. Even in systems which are continually evacuated by a vacuum pump, getters are also used to remove residual gas, often to achieve a higher vacuum than the pump could achieve alone. Although it weighs almost nothing and has no moving parts, a getter is itself a vacuum pump_". This position supports the idea of residual gas being absorbed by the getter once a long dormant NOS (or even used) tube is first used after many decades, hence eventually changing its electrical and hence sonic characteristics, in terms of a straightforward scientific explanation in the sense of engineering.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 2, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> @Paladin79 Two things. First, I completely agree with your view that different tubes sound to the same person differently even with the same equipment and same music, depending on other factors: mood, as you mention, other psychological factors (to me, e.g. novelty of sound signature is but one of them) but also influenced by the "objective factors" such as inner climate of the room, atmospheric pressure, and biochemical condition of the body. I think I have someone in the family who knows something about the latter professionally, and I shall enquire.
> 
> Now, about need to run the tubes that have been dormant for a long time for some hours to make sure that the gas residue is absorbed by the getter. @bcowen mentioned that recently, and before that, I posted the same assumption that was conveyed to me by a Russian engineer from who I have bought some tubes. With all due respect, it is enough to look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getter; this offers the following position with 5 references: "_the inner surfaces of the container release absorbed gases for a long time after the vacuum is established. The getter continually removes this residual gas as it is produced. Even in systems which are continually evacuated by a vacuum pump, getters are also used to remove residual gas, often to achieve a higher vacuum than the pump could achieve alone. Although it weighs almost nothing and has no moving parts, a getter is itself a vacuum pump_". This position supports the idea of residual gas being absorbed by the getter once a long dormant NOS (or even used) tube is first used after many decades, hence eventually changing its electrical and hence sonic characteristics, in terms of a straightforward scientific explanation in the sense of engineering.



I have heard that theory passed around and with all due respect to wikipedia you have to be cautious what is posted there in terms of accuracy. Believe what you wish, I studied tube theory and was taught differently.  There are things that get passed from one person to the next and it gets a little fuzzy when you try to find the actual source, in science. Stating the parts of a tube, or its construction does not carry over to what might or might not change to cause it to sound "better" or "worse".  I have never heard of it being quantified and it is easy enough to test the output of an audio device when a tube is brand new or ten hours or fifty hours or 100 hours into its usage.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I have heard that theory passed around and with all due respect to wikipedia you have to be cautious what is posted there in terms of accuracy. Believe what you wish, I studied tube theory and was taught differently.  There are things that get passed from one person to the next and it gets a little fuzzy when you try to find the actual source, in science.


I cannot believe it or not as my own knowledge about physics and chemistry of the vacuum tube is insufficient. From my own experience in epistemology and scientific methods I can only guess what is plausible. The issue at hand is not deep science. When I read the text I have posted from Wiki, it makes sense to me in the context that we have been discussing. I do not see how it is fuzzy, not even in the sense of logic (Lotfi Zadeh). I would appreciate a simple explanation why you believe it does not make sense, based on your knowledge, i.e. a straightforward explanation why my supposition, based on the quote from Wiki, supported by 5 references, is wrong, rather that an unsubstantiated dismissal. I promise to try hard to overcome my ignorance to understand it.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I cannot believe it or not as my own knowledge about physics and chemistry of the vacuum tube is insufficient. From my own experience in epistemology and scientific methods I can only guess what is plausible. The issue at hand is not deep science. When I read the text I have posted from Wiki, it makes sense to me in the context that we have been discussing. I do not see how it is fuzzy, not even in the sense of logic (Lotfi Zadeh). I would appreciate a simple explanation why you believe it does not make sense, based on your knowledge, i.e. a straightforward explanation why my supposition, based on the quote from Wiki, supported by 5 references, is wrong, rather that an unsubstantiated dismissal. I promise to try hard to overcome my ignorance to understand it.[/QUOTE
> 
> I have been through this before and it is not something I care to indulge in again with all due respect.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

I understand. I can only regret that I have missed an opportunity to learn something new from you, in addition to what I have learned already. It is not something critical that I need to know, so I will not pester you again with it.


----------



## Paladin79

It is not easy to combine the subjective with the objective. I will try to answer in PM when I get the time, heading home soon.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I understand. I can only regret that I have missed an opportunity to learn something new from you, in addition to what I have learned already. It is not something critical that I need to know, so I will not pester you again with it.


I think I found an answer to my query. It seems that the getter absorbs any residual gas in a tube within a rather short time once the filament is heated - in 30+ minutes, maybe a couple of hours, depending on the type of the tube. The sound improvement of much longer periods has not been scientifically explained in accessible sources so far.


----------



## Logistics

Ripper2860 said:


> I was kidding.  The SB Pro (there was actually a Sound Blaster Pro) was definitely a very good card in its time, but time marches on.  (I really liked my Gravis sound card better, but SB was very nice).



Some of that old hardware could still be great if treated correctly.  I experimented with one of the original Sound Blaster Live! cards for a while by replacing the electrolytics between the main DSP and its output OpAmps with films, and the card became extremely revealing--literally, a  night and day difference.  Then I replaced the caps on all the incoming voltage lines from the PCI bus with low-esr Panasonics, and the background became black as night silent.  It was a great card, and I was using the kX drivers to allow me to use ASIO in Windows XP, and outputting to a Dynaco Stereo 70.  XD Sade sounded great!


----------



## Ripper2860

Hmmmm.   I still have a few SB cards lying about...  


Drats.  No ISA slots in my computer though!!!


----------



## Logistics

They make adapters to use them over a ribbon cable in an empty case slot.  Just have to use additional +12V supply in tandem...


----------



## Ripper2860

Interesting.  Any sources for the stuff you're doing w/ SB cards.  Instructions and parts, etc.?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Hmmmm.   I still have a few SB cards lying about...
> 
> 
> Drats.  No ISA slots in my computer though!!!



You have computers in Texas now?


----------



## bcowen

Logistics said:


> Some of that old hardware could still be great if treated correctly.  I experimented with one of the original Sound Blaster Live! cards for a while by replacing the electrolytics between the main DSP and its output OpAmps with films, and the card became extremely revealing--literally, a  night and day difference.  Then I replaced the caps on all the incoming voltage lines from the PCI bus with low-esr Panasonics, and the background became black as night silent.  It was a great card, and I was using the kX drivers to allow me to use ASIO in Windows XP, and outputting to a Dynaco Stereo 70.  XD Sade sounded great!



These are all SMD components you're replacing? I'm impressed.  My trials with smd soldering has never ended well.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> I have heard that theory passed around and with all due respect to Wikipedia you have to be cautious what is posted there in terms of accuracy. Believe what you wish, I studied tube theory and was taught differently.  There are things that get passed from one person to the next and it gets a little fuzzy when you try to find the actual source, in science. Stating the parts of a tube, or its construction does not carry over to what might or might not change to cause it to sound "better" or "worse".  I have never heard of it being quantified and it is easy enough to test the output of an audio device when a tube is brand new or ten hours or fifty hours or 100 hours into its usage.



I am grateful that my collection of tubes sound good to me. The biggest surprise--which I really cannot explain, is the consistent quality of new production tubes. I guess I am enjoying all the emissions and the role the getter plays because I am neither an engineer, not an expert about anything. 

I figure when I am listening to music, that is good as it going to get, and enjoy. I have a bucket of choices should a replacement be needed, three sets deep, for either tube amp.


----------



## Logistics

bcowen said:


> These are all SMD components you're replacing? I'm impressed.  My trials with smd soldering has never ended well.



Absolutely, not!  Just working with small things like electrolytic capacitors, sometimes resistors or voltage regulators; all through-hole components.  Of course, the rest of the PC is reinforced as well: the power supply has upgraded electrolytic capacitors, the motherboard gets low-esr electrolytics or polymers if it's something as horrifying as a Pentium 4 or higher.  (It's amazing how snappy and peppy an old Pentium 4 of even the Socket 478 variety becomes after a polymer recap of its motherboard)  And of course it helps with cleaning up your USB stage for use with DAC's and other hardware.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 3, 2019)

I would like to get my hands on a couple NOS 1953 Fotons for testing just to see if there are any measurable audio changes after 100 hours, or 10 hours or whatever. I have tried this with other tubes but in all fairness I want to try some tubes that people feel really change after a long burn in.

I was once working with a grad student who claimed that subjective human traits were measurable and it was part of his doctoral dissertation.

How hard can this be then?

I should try to buy four or five of those tubes, but being 66 years old, I would replace the solder in the pins before doing any testing.

If it is true that any tube sounds better after it burns in, I have a quad of untouched Tung Sols from Schiit as well as four I ran for several days straight before changing them out in a Freya. I have a young friend whose hearing is remarkable. I ran some tests on wire a while back and she was the only one who could pick out specific wire going to headphones on a regular basis. Using four brand new tubes and one that has been in place for several hours straight, she should be able to easily pick that last tube out on a regular basis as sounding different, I hesitate to use the word better. I also have a shop full of equipment and can borrow most anything I do not already own so I can do my own testing to see if there is any difference in an audible sound spectrum between a new tube and a slightly used one.

I mention the Foton just in case "burn in improvements" only apply to specific tubes and it is the one I should test.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I would like to get my hands on a couple NOS 1953 Fotons for testing just to see if there are any measurable audio changes after 100 hours, or 10 hours or whatever. I have tried this with other tubes but in all fairness I want to try some tubes that people feel really change after a long burn in.
> 
> I was once working with a grad student who claimed that subjective human traits were measurable and it was part of his doctoral dissertation.
> 
> ...



IMO, Fotons are one of the best for this test. In my experience, they go through some quite audible changes as they break-in. More so than most any other tube I've tried, and more so than I can possibly attribute to just mood, environment, incoming AC quality, etc.  And nothing else has changed in the system during the break-in periods and changes I've heard.

I'll send you a pair of tested but otherwise unused '53's.  Pretty sure I have a pair that haven't had any time put on therm.  If not, I know I have 51's and 52's that are tested but otherwise unused. Sonically, I can't discern any real difference between any of the ribbed plate versions that I have (51's - 55's), so a '52 should (logically) display the same behavior as a '53. One thing I HAVE found though (not with the Fotons but with the Melz) is that even though they pass all tests in the tester, there still may be a pin solder issue once stuck in the amp, evidenced by hum or a sputtering/static-ey type sound.  The tester doesn't pick up on this, and maybe it's just that the wire is making contact when inserted in the tester socket but by the time the tube gets jostled around between the tester and the amp that pin (or pins) lose contact.  So you *may* need to reflow the solder in these even though they tested fine....if that makes any sense.

On the same note, I hear very little difference in Frankentubes from totally new to several hundred hours of use. Seems they improve a little (smoother, less peaky) after 10-15 hours of play time, but the changes are pretty minor and I *could* attribute that to conditions external to the tube rather than the tube itself if I wanted to. But I don't.   LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> I figure when I am listening to music, that is good as it going to get, and enjoy.



We can talk about tubes, break-in, testers, amps, 'phones, listening acuity, opinions, NOS versus new, @Ripper2860 's feigned sexual prowess, and on and on and on, but at the end of the day what you just said is ALL that matters.  If you enjoy what you're listening to, the rest is meaningless and irrelevant.  Just my opinion so take it FWIW...most everyone knows I don't have much of an opinion about anything.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> IMO, Fotons are one of the best for this test. In my experience, they go through some quite audible changes as they break-in. More so than most any other tube I've tried, and more so than I can possibly attribute to just mood, environment, incoming AC quality, etc.  And nothing else has changed in the system during the break-in periods and changes I've heard.
> 
> I'll send you a pair of tested but otherwise unused '53's.  Pretty sure I have a pair that haven't had any time put on therm.  If not, I know I have 51's and 52's that are tested but otherwise unused. Sonically, I can't discern any real difference between any of the ribbed plate versions that I have (51's - 55's), so a '52 should (logically) display the same behavior as a '53. One thing I HAVE found though (not with the Fotons but with the Melz) is that even though they pass all tests in the tester, there still may be a pin solder issue once stuck in the amp, evidenced by hum or a sputtering/static-ey type sound.  The tester doesn't pick up on this, and maybe it's just that the wire is making contact when inserted in the tester socket but by the time the tube gets jostled around between the tester and the amp that pin (or pins) lose contact.  So you *may* need to reflow the solder in these even though they tested fine....if that makes any sense.
> 
> On the same note, I hear very little difference in Frankentubes from totally new to several hundred hours of use. Seems they improve a little (smoother, less peaky) after 10-15 hours of play time, but the changes are pretty minor and I *could* attribute that to conditions external to the tube rather than the tube itself if I wanted to. But I don't.   LOL!


 

As long as you do not mind me replacing the pin solder on the Fotons. I want to eliminate the chance that the solder is any kind of an issue. I prefer to do that rather than re-flow very old solder. I can get a high percentage of the old stuff out. I like everything to be as equal as possible. I trust my friends hearing more than I do my own, past the age of 50 we are lucky to hear much beyond 15,000 hertz on a good day.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 3, 2019)

bcowen said:


> We can talk about tubes, break-in, testers, amps, 'phones, listening acuity, opinions, NOS versus new, @Ripper2860 's feigned sexual prowess, and on and on and on, but at the end of the day what you just said is ALL that matters.  If you enjoy what you're listening to, the rest is meaningless and irrelevant.  Just my opinion so take it FWIW...most everyone knows I don't have much of an opinion about anything.



Through the years I have heard all kinds of things including being able to hear a difference between two pieces of identical Belden wire. Same length, same connectors, all soldered by the same person. I set up a test, and amazingly enough he could hear the difference!!!!  50% of the time, after I ran enough tests to get him to that mark.  It is hard enough to do this using headphone wire of different makes and types and I only found one person who could do that with any consistency whatsoever.

If a difference is that noticeable on Foton tubes I should be able to measure it. I can lay several tracks down right next to each other from 10hertz to say 20k hertz and look for any variance in amplitude or duration. I have done this before, it took a while to set up but once done it was an easy way to match tubes for friends for the Schiit Coaster amp.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I cannot believe it or not as my own knowledge about physics and chemistry of the vacuum tube is insufficient. From my own experience in epistemology and scientific methods, I can only guess what is plausible. The issue at hand is not deep science. When I read the text I have posted from Wiki, it makes sense to me in the context that we have been discussing. I do not see how it is fuzzy, not even in the sense of logic (Lotfi Zadeh). I would appreciate a simple explanation why you believe it does not make sense, based on your knowledge, i.e. a straightforward explanation why my supposition, based on the quote from Wiki, supported by 5 references, is wrong, rather than an unsubstantiated dismissal. I promise to try hard to overcome my ignorance to understand it.



It is my opinion, as a Music Listener first, and a person concerned with measurements and comparisons, way further down the list, what comes out of the transducers is the most important factor. 
Whether a village of tiny elves or an electrolytic device is the process that a signal goes through to get to the transducers is of little importance to me. I am not knowledgeable to argue, nor would I be easily convinced, if either side of the argument involves the need to understand esoteric aspects of the process.

Like the discussions of coffee on another thread brought forth several differing views, I deduced what works for me, and am enjoying the result. Could a better cup of coffee be possible--sure. Is the cup I am making with a hand-grinder from locally roasted beans better than Walmart $5.00/big can pre-ground, no doubt.

When I tell the Audacious player to let me listen to a recording of Solti or Karajan, it is only the Music from the transducers that matters, and I have a profound opinion about that. For everyone else, Your Mileage May Vary.

And now for a subject totally unrelated to audio, but seemingly apropos to this discussion is "set and setting". Both Timothy Leary and Terrence McKenna, in the discussion of hallucinogenic substances, emphasize both "Set and Setting" as being the critical factor whether the subject has a pleasant experience during the "trip" or a "bad trip" with all other factors being equal.

Perception is affected by both set and setting, altered perception equally so. 
If you start your listening experience, still stewing about a jack-ass cutting you off in traffic, versus coming home in a copacetic mood, content and ready to listen--the perception of the music will be different. 
If the angry listener has Imagined Dragons, while the contented listener floats away with the second movement to a blissful state--does the age of the tube really matter?


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> As long as you do not mind me replacing the pin solder on the Fotons. I want to eliminate the chance that the solder is any kind of an issue. I prefer to do that rather than re-flow very old solder. I can get a high percentage of the old stuff out. I like everything to be as equal as possible. I trust my friends hearing more than I do my own, past the age of 50 we are lucky to hear much beyond 15,000 hertz on a good day.



Don't forget about tube fondle time and its affect on the sound.  Perhaps @bcowen could document his fondling regimen and propose a testing protocol to determine if there is a sonic benefit or merely psychological -- the result of bonding between man and tube.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> Don't forget about tube fondle time and its effect on the sound.  Perhaps @bcowen could document his fondling regimen and propose a testing protocol to determine if there is a sonic benefit or merely psychological -- the result of bonding between man and tube.



And the "anticipation bias" accorded a tube, or tubes, based upon the structure, the proper mica design, the condition of the ink which imprinted the tube, and the consensus of two or more who have heard a HUGE difference in sound quality between two tubes within a class (6SN7/6H8C).


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 3, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Don't forget about tube fondle time and its affect on the sound.  Perhaps @bcowen could document his fondling regimen and propose a testing protocol to determine if there is a sonic benefit or merely psychological -- the result of bonding between man and tube.



On the 6sn7 challenge he will not be able to get to the tubes whatsoever so he may test them more quickly than he originally thought. Some of the bases said cccp right on them, or were metal and had four indentations, so all he will see is gold pins and red tube bases.


----------



## bcowen (Jul 3, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> As long as you do not mind me replacing the pin solder on the Fotons. I want to eliminate the chance that the solder is any kind of an issue. I prefer to do that rather than re-flow very old solder. I can get a high percentage of the old stuff out. I like everything to be as equal as possible. I trust my friends hearing more than I do my own, past the age of 50 we are lucky to hear much beyond 15,000 hertz on a good day.



I don't mind at all if you replace the solder.  Your soldering skills are likely light years ahead of mine.  Now the bigger question: do you want the regular '53's or the '53's I had Cryo treated? 
And just as a point of clarification, I can hear to 15,206 Hz, even on a regular day. Unless it's raining.  Of course, I'm only 25 so that may have some effect.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Don't forget about tube fondle time and its affect on the sound.  Perhaps @bcowen could document his fondling regimen and propose a testing protocol to determine if there is a sonic benefit or merely psychological -- the result of bonding between man and tube.



I only fondle my Frankentubes.  How many times do I have to tell you that?


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> And the "anticipation bias" accorded a tube, or tubes, based upon the structure, the proper mica design, the condition of the ink which imprinted the tube, and the consensus of two or more who have heard a HUGE difference in sound quality between two tubes within a class (6SN7/6H8C).



Nobody ever said anything about actually_ listening_ to these tubes.  Man, you're making this more and more difficult.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> If the angry listener has Imagined Dragons, while the contented listener floats away with the second movement to a blissful state--does the age of the tube really matter?



Yes. 

I'll have to defer to @Ripper2860 on the hallucinogenic thing as his daily experience will have far more validity as a discussion point.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 3, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> On the 6sn7 challenge he will not be able to get to the tubes whatsoever so he may test them more quickly than he originally thought. Some of the bases said cccp right on them, or were metal and had four indentations, so all he will see is gold pins and red tube bases.



I meant for when you perform your extensive testing on the NOS Foton he will be sending you.  After-all, you must be faithful the process in its entirety.  Remember, no matter how distasteful -- it's all for SCIENCE!!


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Nobody ever said anything about actually_ listening_ to these tubes.  Man, you're making this more and more difficult.



"You are Correct, Sir!" -- Ed McMahon, mid 20th century Second Banana 

The reason why tube type is such a low priority on my selection process checklist is simply stated "Three 6SN7 tubes, Test Good" and free shipping with $3 price. This was a cute group including an outstanding short bottle Chrome Dome, a Motorola with a center post not quite glued on, and a Tung Sol dated 1957, in a short bottle which had identical internals to another round mica Tung Sol in a tall bottle. The Chrome Dome has Bass Slam, the short Tung matched with its bigger brother as an homage to the DeVito-Arnold film, "Twins". The Motorola glows nice and sounds good. The other two were Tall Tung Sol with similar internals.  Six tubes, $22 in total, all sound good, all sound different on the $149 Schiit Vali 2, but none of them hold a flickering flame of Liberty to the unmarked tube which has the internals of a Melz 1578, with funky thin pins. When properly inserted--hum free, by modification of the adapter female parts with the point of a sharp scissor as per the suggestion of @Ripper2860...



bcowen said:


> Yes.
> 
> I'll have to defer to @Ripper2860 on the hallucinogenic thing as his daily experience will have far more validity as a discussion point.


I was attempting Humor playing upon the popular musical group Imagine Dragons (which BTW really thump on the Advents, and makes watching the Subwoofer a wonderful diversion) The tie-dye speaker clothes look like they are breathing,  and that is on just Coffee...


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> I meant for when you perform your extensive testing on the NOS Foton he will be sending you to test/measure.  After all, you must be faithful to the process in its entirety.  Remember -- it's all for SCIENCE!!



She Blinded me with...


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> ...by modification of the adapter female parts with the point of a sharp scissor as per the suggestion of @Ripper2860...



Scissors?  SCISSORS?  My god man, get some proper tools for re-tensioning socket contacts.  Scissors?  I'm horrified, shocked, and need to swipe some of @Ripper2860 's hallucinogens before I go nuts here.  Scissors?  Argh! 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BKYRM6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Paladin79

I step away for a moment and now I feel like I am in a dentist's office for some reason.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I meant for when you perform your extensive testing on the NOS Foton he will be sending you.  After-all, you must be faithful the process in its entirety.  Remember, no matter how distasteful -- it's all for SCIENCE!!



I am generally faithful to the process even when I know the outcome, I just need to change the date on a couple photos I took, pretend to work on it for a couple weeks, then act like I care about the results.


----------



## Ripper2860

Sounds like a rather sound scientific method and process to me.  Continue on …


----------



## Ripper2860

For the record -- I never suggested scissors.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> For the record -- I never suggested scissors.



I believe you. You probably suggested putting the Vali on the floor and then stomping on the tube to get it seated.  Right?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am generally faithful to the process even when I know the outcome, I just need to change the date on a couple photos I took, pretend to work on it for a couple weeks, then act like I care about the results.



Weird.  I'm totally _not_ a scientist, but that's exactly what I do.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I step away for a moment and now I feel like I am in a dentist's office for some reason.



The 3rd one from the left also works great for cleaning out ear wax.  Just shove it in past the knurled part, rotate it around several times and you're good to go.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The 3rd one from the left also works great for cleaning out ear wax.  Just shove it in past the knurled part, rotate it around several times and you're good to go.


I was trying not to mention ear wax but I was thinking it yesterday. Perhaps after the cleaning process those tubes that have been burning all that time suddenly sound so much better?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was trying not to mention ear wax but I was thinking it yesterday. Perhaps after the cleaning process those tubes that have been burning all that time suddenly sound so much better?



Distinct possibility.

Just be sure you have a good grip on it.  I heard that when @Ripper2860 first tried it, the vacuum sucked it out of his hand and all the way through to the other ear.  Guessing that must have hurt some.


----------



## Ripper2860

I have a genetic mutation that prevents me from building up ear wax and dental plaque.  It's a burden I must carry.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Robert Padgett said:


> modification of the adapter female parts with the point of a sharp scissor


 Well. reminds of some African practice. God forbid. Even if it sounds good.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Well. reminds of some African practice. God forbid. Even if it sounds good.



That doesn't sound good at all, even if I'm not female.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I have a genetic mutation that prevents me from building up ear wax and dental plaque.  It's a burden I must carry.



That explains a lot.  Very sorry to hear about your affliction though.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Scissors?  SCISSORS?  My god man, get some proper tools for re-tensioning socket contacts.  Scissors?  I'm horrified, shocked, and need to swipe some of @Ripper2860 's hallucinogens before I go nuts here.  Scissors?  Argh!
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BKYRM6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1



I have a dozen pairs of those cheap Pakistani scissors that come in suture removal kits, they work, at no further cost, and quite well, I might add!  
Great for opening boxes and unpenetrable Chinese plastic enclosures. 
Adapt, Improvise, Overcome


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 3, 2019)

Robert Padgett said:


> I have a dozen pairs of those cheap Pakistani scissors that come in suture removal kits, they work, at no further cost, and quite well, I might add!
> Great for opening boxes and unpenetrable Chinese plastic enclosures.
> Adapt, Improvise, Overcome



Sure, but can you remove dental plaque with your Pakistani Suture Scissors??  

And would one want to!!??


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> For the record -- I never suggested scissors.


That is true, I should have said, "@Ripper2860 suggested I somehow make the adapter's female part have a better grip on the slender Russian pins, which may or may not allow the good contact of Socket and Pin" 

I chose my resplendent collection of surgical instruments, but found the miniature scissors worked exceedingly well. So well, In Fact, I have made contact with the sole supplier of suture removal scissors in all of Pakistan, Afghanistan and a couple other 'Stans where I can corner the market on them, and sell them on Audiogon as Stainless Steel Female Socket Shrinkers...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Distinct possibility.
> 
> Just be sure you have a good grip on it.  I heard that when @Ripper2860 first tried it, the vacuum sucked it out of his hand and all the way through to the other ear.  Guessing that must have hurt some.


I used to make some straight picks using small diameter steel with a plastic handle. I gave most of them out to cable builders but I will post a photo if I locate one in my home shop.  Perfect for widening the solder lugs on some connectors or opening the thru hole portions of pc boards for part replacement.


----------



## bcowen

OK Tom, picked you out a nice pair of '54's.  Only had 3 '53's, one was Cryo'd, and one didn't have a very good balance between the triodes, so getting a decently matched (and totally equal) pair wasn't in the cards.  These '54's match up pretty nicely.  They gave the Weston its inaugural run after the refurb, and the readings correlate quite nicely with the Hickok. So both tubes are well tested, but unused beyond that. Pins are typical Foton -- not that great, so re-soldering will probably be a necessity. And I just noticed now when I posted the pic that the one on the left has a small crack in the base. The glass is still perfectly tight to the base, and I added a couple drops of my super secret unobtanium glue at the top of the crack which should keep it from separating further. Since this is a science project it hopefully won't  make any difference, but if you think differently let me know.  Otherwise I'll get 'em in the mail to you on Monday.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 4, 2019)

bcowen said:


> OK Tom, picked you out a nice pair of '54's.  Only had 3 '53's, one was Cryo'd, and one didn't have a very good balance between the triodes, so getting a decently matched (and totally equal) pair wasn't in the cards.  These '54's match up pretty nicely.  They gave the Weston its inaugural run after the refurb, and the readings correlate quite nicely with the Hickok. So both tubes are well tested, but unused beyond that. Pins are typical Foton -- not that great, so re-soldering will probably be a necessity. And I just noticed now when I posted the pic that the one on the left has a small crack in the base. The glass is still perfectly tight to the base, and I added a couple drops of my super secret unobtanium glue at the top of the crack which should keep it from separating further. Since this is a science project it hopefully won't  make any difference, but if you think differently let me know.  Otherwise I'll get 'em in the mail to you on Monday.


Those should work fine and the small crack should not pose a problem. If anything happened to one or both during my testing I would make it right for you, I believe two GE tubes to one Foton is the going rate of exchange.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Those should work fine and the small crack should not pose a problem. If anything happened to one or both during my testing I would make it right for you, I believe two GE tubes to one Foton is the going rate of exchange.



No need to send those back...was just hoping the crack wouldn't somehow invalidate the scientific process.  

BTW, the going exchange rate is ALL the GE tubes ever made per Foton. Just so you know. Logic would dictate that GE had to screw up on at least a one-per-thousand basis and make a tube that actually sounded good. LOL!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 4, 2019)

bcowen said:


> No need to send those back...was just hoping the crack wouldn't somehow invalidate the scientific process.
> 
> BTW, the going exchange rate is ALL the GE tubes ever made per Foton. Just so you know. Logic would dictate that GE had to screw up on at least a one-per-thousand basis and make a tube that actually sounded good. LOL!


 Sounds fine, honestly I can replace a base but it is a lot of work and that type of crack really does no harm. My plan is starting to come together, child proof caps and all. Gold pins and burgandy sockets will be your only point of access.  All socket extensions are built with identical lengths of the same 22 awg OCC copper, silver plated wire. I cannot go into my selection process of the GE tube but there may be some test equipment involved as well as a lot of listening.

1-8 will probably appear on small round stickers on the top of the tubes, they can be removed or marked out and new stickers with new numbers can go in their place for future testing.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Sounds fine, honestly I can replace a base but it is a lot of work and that type of crack really does no harm. My plan is starting to come together, child proof caps and all. Gold pins and burgandy sockets will be your only point of access.  All socket extensions are built with identical lengths of the same 22 awg OCC copper, silver plated wire. I cannot go into my selection process of the GE tube but there may be some test equipment involved as well as a lot of listening.
> 
> 1-8 will probably appear on small round stickers on the top of the tubes, they can be removed or marked out and new stickers with new numbers can go in their place for future testing.



Sweet!!  Although the way those are looking now, it's not ATF agents I'll be worried about but the DEA. 

I have a couple surprises I'm putting in the box with the Fotons. Intended as a joke, but I will sheepishly admit right now that the joke may turn out to be on me.  Not saying anything more at this point -- you'll figure it out quickly when the box arrives.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Sweet!!  Although the way those are looking now, it's not ATF agents I'll be worried about but the DEA.
> 
> I have a couple surprises I'm putting in the box with the Fotons. Intended as a joke, but I will sheepishly admit right now that the joke may turn out to be on me.  Not saying anything more at this point -- you'll figure it out quickly when the box arrives.



That was my first thought… looking more like a drug lab than IED factory now.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Sweet!!  Although the way those are looking now, it's not ATF agents I'll be worried about but the DEA.
> 
> I have a couple surprises I'm putting in the box with the Fotons. Intended as a joke, but I will sheepishly admit right now that the joke may turn out to be on me.  Not saying anything more at this point -- you'll figure it out quickly when the box arrives.


Sounds like the surprise may be GE tubes?


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Sounds like the surprise may be GE tubes?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sweet!!  Although the way those are looking now, it's not ATF agents I'll be worried about but the DEA.
> 
> I have a couple surprises I'm putting in the box with the Fotons. Intended as a joke, but I will sheepishly admit right now that the joke may turn out to be on me.  Not saying anything more at this point -- you'll figure it out quickly when the box arrives.



ATF, DEA who cares!  Once you are in Federal prison you will not really care about which acronym sent you there. Think along the lines of you have a first day in, and first day out, that is only two days. What happens in between hardly counts. 

I like surprises, and you should remember, everything is relative. If all you have to listen to is GE tubes, then one will eventually sound better than others, that is my hope anyway.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> If all you have to listen to is GE tubes...….



….then it is time to start seriously looking at solid state. LOL!!!


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> That was my first thought… looking more like a drug lab than IED factory now.



You have to remember these are for Bill, I was trying to keep the shapes simple. Bunny rabbit shapes were a lot more trouble and he might get attached and start naming them. I have some expensive tubes in this group and I hope to see some of them again. If Bill gets it right and puts the GE tube in last place, he gets a nice steak dinner, bottle of wine, and he gets to keep the GE tube!


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> You have to remember these are for Bill, I was trying to keep the shapes simple. Bunny rabbit shapes were a lot more trouble and he might get attached and start naming them. I have some expensive tubes in this group and I hope to see some of them again. If Bill gets it right and puts the GE tube in last place, he gets a nice steak dinner, bottle of wine, and he gets to keep the GE tube!


And if he doesn't get it right, it is Carolina Sushi (canned sardines) with a pack of Nabs (toastchee crackers from Lance), a moon-pie and a bottle of Cheerwine or RC Cola...both available in Gaston County, home of Choice beverages.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> You have to remember these are for Bill, I was trying to keep the shapes simple. Bunny rabbit shapes were a lot more trouble and he might get attached and start naming them. I have some expensive tubes in this group and I hope to see some of them again. If Bill gets it right and puts the GE tube in last place, he gets a nice steak dinner, bottle of wine, and he gets to keep the GE tube!



Still sealing the tubes in wax? Doesn't the tube heat up enough to melt the wax - especially being encased in a PVC jacket?

Your concealment efforts don't affect the sound of the tube? Maybe you guys should claim it does. Start a side business modding tubes for the gullible…
"OMG!! Paladin79's mods even make GE tubes sound great!" - bcowen.


----------



## Paladin79

The sealing wax was on top of other materials I used so it did not melt in my sample. The pvc pipe is vented so the heat escapes. 

On my newest model I will just run sealing wax under the lip of the child proof cap on top. I will use pvc cleaner and glue under that. 

On the pin socket there will be a ring of sealing wax between it and the pvc and I am using a special glue on the inside that should not react to heat. I ran my first sample for 8 hours straight so I believe I have worked out any thermal issues.There is also an air gap inside and if things get a little too warm I can add more vents down closer to the tube for better air flow.

I suspect if Bill does not choose the GE at the bottom, he will claim the tube encasement worked wonders!


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Start a side business modding tubes for the gullible…
> "OMG!! Paladin79's mods even make GE tubes sound great!" - bcowen.



ROFL!!!!  That's an *awesome* idea. 

A few fake testimonials, maybe a tagline from an obscure and unknown audio website, and sell away. And if anyone complained they didn't sound good, we'd just bombard them with emails about the rest of their equipment not being up to snuff, their underdeveloped and inadequate listening abilities, or most probably they were putting the tube in wrong.  Brilliant!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I suspect if Bill does not choose the GE at the bottom, he will claim the tube encasement worked wonders!



Did you think I'd jump into this without some way of blaming failure on something else?  I used to watch C-Span a lot....


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 4, 2019)

A sad day.  The inspiration for the Tom (@Paladin79) and Bill (@bcowen) Tube challenge has bitten the big one.  Where else could the idea for something like that have come from?


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!!!  That's an *awesome* idea.
> 
> A few fake testimonials, maybe a tagline from an obscure and unknown audio website, and sell away. And if anyone complained they didn't sound good, we'd just bombard them with emails about the rest of their equipment not being up to snuff, their underdeveloped and inadequate listening abilities, or most probably they were putting the tube in wrong.  Brilliant!



Are the Hunt Bros. still alive??


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 4, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Did you think I'd jump into this without some way of blaming failure on something else?  I used to watch C-Span a lot....



I was taught long ago that you always allow a person an out, a way to save face. I do not mind doing that as long as I can keep my reservations for a steak dinner and big bottle of wine.

As long as Bill does not try to blame my tube extensions, we are fine. They are freaking works of art that any tube person would be proud to plug in. A combination of phenolic plastic, silver, gold, copper, tin and lead.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Are the Hunt Bros. still alive??



Have no idea. But we'd sure make P.T. Barnum happy.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> As long as Bill does not try to blame my tube extensions, we are fine. They are freaking works of art that any tube person would be proud to plug in. A combination of phenolic plastic, silver, gold, copper, tin and lead.



I'd never even think of blaming your extensions. I'd probably blame @Ripper2860 for consistency if nothing else.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 4, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> As long as Bill does not try to blame my tube extensions, we are fine. They are freaking works of art that any tube person would be proud to plug in. A combination of phenolic plastic, silver, gold, copper, tin and lead.



Likely along with multiple fire code violations!!   



bcowen said:


> I'd never even think of blaming your extensions. I'd probably blame @Ripper2860 for consistency if nothing else.



I'm used to it.  After-all, I'm married.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Likely along with multiple fire code violations!!
> 
> I doubt seriously the pvc pipes will result in fires. The explosions should remove enough oxygen from the room to limit a fires ability to ignite.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


>



Wait...that's an extension (perhaps even an extension/adapter), then an adapter, then another adapter, then the tube. That's like kicking sand in the face of double adapting which I'm pretty sure is illegal in most states (especially California). And doesn't that tube laying on its side sound better if it's vertical?


----------



## bcowen

Explosions are cool.  I'll have my wife do the initial hook up and listen.  "Honey, your hearing is so much better than mine."  Trust me, with that said she'll go for it


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Wait...that's an extension (perhaps even an extension/adapter), then an adapter, then another adapter, then the tube. That's like kicking sand in the face of double adapting which I'm pretty sure is illegal in most states (especially California). And doesn't that tube laying on its side sound better if it's vertical?



The tube on its side is resting. Would you expect it to hang from the ceiling like a bat?

I was trying for a leaning tower of tube with the extensions. Come to think of it, I have six done, I can stack more!!!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 4, 2019)

> I doubt seriously the pvc pipes will result in fires. The explosions should remove enough oxygen from the room to limit a fires ability to ignite.



Dammmmmm!!  You've thought of EVERYTHING!!!








Paladin79 said:


> Come to think of it, I have six done, I can stack more!!!



Wait!!!  I'll notify the folks at Guinness!!


----------



## attmci (Jul 4, 2019)

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!!!  That's an *awesome* idea.
> 
> A few fake testimonials, maybe a tagline from an obscure and unknown audio website, and sell away. And if anyone complained they didn't sound good, we'd just bombard them with emails about the rest of their equipment not being up to snuff, their underdeveloped and inadequate listening abilities, or most probably they were putting the tube in wrong.  Brilliant!


You guys sure? Hard to get rid of those GE dots. Are u planning to put a GEC sticker there? I do have some spare Marconi tube boxes available.

You can also use this to mod, just push a button.  

https://www.ebay.com/i/253677185345...Q4Kigk_wbkIhfae3zv-HEkfPGl5UnZDxoCpbIQAvD_BwE


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 5, 2019)

Today I am doing final tests on the tubes I want to use in the 6SN7 challenge. All pins are thoroughly cleaned, they are once again run through my tester and given a minimum of one hour in a Vali 2 amp. I need to get a couple more of the red tube sockets and build extensions but I have that down pretty well now.

More testing will go on to select the final 8 tubes, right now I have 36 candidates whose results I like. One more final cleaning then some tests to be sure nothing fails after final assembly, then off to @bcowen they go, and the fun begins. 

I may include one extra tube all sealed up, in the event a tube fails or one does not meet with Bill's approval during his test process.

More parts arrived today, octal extensions are build, pins were cleaned and re-cleaned. Testing will be going on for a few more days and I am expecting more tubes. One friend who owns in excess of 100,000 tubes is even giving me free 6sn7's that have damaged guide pins. That does not matter to me since I have plenty of octal extensions made. 

I could have used actual pipe caps but at $3.00 each I would be adding another $24.00 to the price of the challenge.


----------



## Robert Padgett

A truly blind test requires a truly blind tester. A beautiful assistsant should be included to put on the blind fold and do the tube switching. I am sure some coed at UNCC would enjoy the honors... And since no coed since 1967 has even seen or used a tube, this insures a completely honest testing paradigm.

"What is this for, Mister Bill?".... It is a vacuum tube valve for radio amplification... "What's a radio?"


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 5, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Today I am doing final tests on the tubes I want to use in the 6SN7 challenge. All pins are thoroughly cleaned, they are once again run through my tester and given a minimum of one hour in a Vali 2 amp. I need to get a couple more of the red tube sockets and build extensions but I have that down pretty well now.
> 
> More testing will go on to select the final 8 tubes, right now I have 36 candidates whose results I like. One more final cleaning then some tests to be sure nothing fails after final assembly, then off to @bcowen they go, and the fun begins.
> 
> ...



You know for the amount of time and $$$ expended, you could have just sent Bill a Gift Card to Ruth's Chris!!  But what's the fun in that, right??  

(He will definitely need an extender -- those may not fit in a Lyr 3)


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 5, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> You know for the amount of time and $$$ expended, you could have just sent Bill a Gift Card to Ruth's Chris!!  But what's the fun in that, right??
> 
> (He will definitely need an extender -- those may not fit in a Lyr 3)




It is never about the money with me, within reason. None of the tubes will be damaged and many were in my possession. I did this with $6.00 worth of PVC and I already owned many of the tube sockets and bases.  I did this as I listened to books or music or watched TV so the labor is meaningless. The steak dinner was Bills idea, I offered this opportunity to most anyone in a reasonable shipping range and I have several local friends who make similar claims about hearing a lot of difference in tubes, and describing the sound of each in depth etc. It is a fun experiment and I do similar things with other electronics but the construction of the tube chambers was a fun challenge.

 I told a few tube sellers I know what I am doing so I also got some bargains along the way.

Bill is looking for another amp to plug these into but I could always lend him one of mine so I do not accidentally put him at risk.  The tube bases I use were a little large for the original Freya but fit in a Freya plus just fine  I have not sealed them together yet but I would rather just send him an extra extension rather than try to leave these sticking out that much.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Paladin79 said:


> It is never about the money with me, within reason. None of the tubes will be damaged and many were in my possession. I did this with $6.00 worth of PVC and I already owned many of the tube sockets and bases.  I did this as I listened to books or music or watched TV so the labor is meaningless. The steak dinner was Bills idea, I offered this opportunity to most anyone in a reasonable shipping range and I have several local friends who make similar claims about hearing a lot of difference in tubes, and describing the sound of each in depth etc. It is a fun experiment and I do similar things with other electronics but the construction of the tube chambers was a fun challenge.
> 
> I told a few tube sellers I know what I am doing so I also got some bargains along the way.
> 
> Bill is looking for another amp to plug these into but I could always lend him one of mine so I do not accidentally put him at risk.  The tube bases I use were a little large for the original Freya but fit in a Freya plus just fine  I have not sealed them together yet but I would rather just send him an extra extension rather than try to leave these sticking out that much.


I am looking forward to the results of this little challenge. The anticipation is killing me!


----------



## Paladin79

KoshNaranek said:


> I am looking forward to the results of this little challenge. The anticipation is killing me!



It should not be too much longer, after Bill the tubes will go on to other people. It is a fun project to set up.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> A truly blind test requires a truly blind tester. A beautiful assistsant should be included to put on the blind fold and do the tube switching. I am sure some coed at UNCC would enjoy the honors... And since no coed since 1967 has even seen or used a tube, this insures a completely honest testing paradigm.
> 
> "What is this for, Mister Bill?".... It is a vacuum tube valve for radio amplification... "What's a radio?"



Not a bad idea except "Beautiful UNCC coed" is an oxymoron.  

Now if I could get one to drive over from Chapel Hill....


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have not sealed them together yet but I would rather just send him an extra extension rather than try to leave these sticking out that much.



No worries. I have a box full of adapters and socket savers, and if for some reason I don't already have something suitable I have another box full of bases and sockets and can make one.

I love these octal sockets that Xulingmrs and a couple other Chinese sellers offer. The split contacts grip the tube pins very nicely (even the skinnier Foton/Melz pins), but don't require a jackhammer to get the tube back out.  A little pricey compared to most, but my favorites for making adapters or extensions that I plan to use for the long term.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-8-pin...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Not a bad idea except "Beautiful UNCC coed" is an oxymoron.
> 
> Now if I could get one to drive over from Chapel Hill....



I stand corrected. Yes, as Tom has discovered true beauty lives in Bloomington, not West Lafayette, I must concede that a Chapel Hill Woman would be a better choice.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 6, 2019)

bcowen said:


> No worries. I have a box full of adapters and socket savers, and if for some reason I don't already have something suitable I have another box full of bases and sockets and can make one.
> 
> I love these octal sockets that Xulingmrs and a couple other Chinese sellers offer. The split contacts grip the tube pins very nicely (even the skinnier Foton/Melz pins), but don't require a jackhammer to get the tube back out.  A little pricey compared to most, but my favorites for making adapters or extensions that I plan to use for the long term.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-8-pin-ceramic-gold-plated-tube-socket-for-KT88-6550-EL34-6L6-6V6-EM34/190802800036?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649



Very nice, i am not using that brand but can certainly see the benefits.

   Some final heat tests to make sure I have enough ventilation. I am using a four digit code that corresponds to the tubes inside the pvc. This way as people borrow the tubes and change the numbers 1-8 on the very top, there will always be a way to identify the tubes inside.  This is a back up tube that I may include in case one of the originals fail for any reason.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Very nice, i am not using that brand but can certainly see the benefits.
> 
> Some final heat tests to make sure I have enough ventilation. I am using a four digit code that corresponds to the tubes inside the pvc. This way as people borrow the tubes and change the numbers 1-8 on the very top, there will always be a way to identify the tubes inside.  This is a back up tube that I may include in case one of the originals fail for any reason.



Those look extremely nice, Tom. Even the pin soldering is a work of art.  Almost hate to even use them.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Those look extremely nice, Tom. Even the pin soldering is a work of art.  Almost hate to even use them.



Your curiosity will get the better of you and you will HAVE to listen lol. 

I am beginning to think the pvc and extension helps a little, my sample tube is sounding awfully good right now or else long exposure to GE tubes makes any other tube sound wonderful.


----------



## attmci (Jul 6, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> It is never about the money with me, within reason. None of the tubes will be damaged and many were in my possession. I did this with $6.00 worth of PVC and I already owned many of the tube sockets and bases.  I did this as I listened to books or music or watched TV so the labor is meaningless. The steak dinner was Bills idea, I offered this opportunity to most anyone in a reasonable shipping range and I have several local friends who make similar claims about hearing a lot of difference in tubes, and describing the sound of each in depth etc. It is a fun experiment and I do similar things with other electronics but the construction of the tube chambers was a fun challenge.
> 
> I told a few tube sellers I know what I am doing so I also got some bargains along the way.
> 
> Bill is looking for another amp to plug these into but I could always lend him one of mine so I do not accidentally put him at risk.  The tube bases I use were a little large for the original Freya but fit in a Freya plus just fine  I have not sealed them together yet but I would rather just send him an extra extension rather than try to leave these sticking out that much.


Sorry, Tom,what's the goal of the blind testing? But it sounds interesting.

You are not putting 8 GE there, right?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 6, 2019)

attmci said:


> Sorry, Tom,what's the goal of the blind testing? But it sounds interesting.
> 
> You are not putting 8 GE there, right?



While it would be hilarious to use 8 GE tubes, I am only putting one in the group. As soon as I mentioned the challenge to Bill, he bet me a steak dinner and bottle of wine that he could place the GE tube at the very bottom as far as SQ and possibly name some of the other brands. I only took him up on the bet on the GE part and me putting more than one GE in the group increases his odds of winning.


Goal.....I often hear people talk about this brand or that sounding a certain way, and which ones they like really well. Bill in particular hates GE so I wanted to see if he could pick one blind and I suspect that he can do that. He also has a liking for specific tubes that many of us own so I wanted to include some of those in the mix. He is fairly far from me so I went to great lengths to make this as blind as possible. Maybe my goal is to show how we might spend a lot of money on a specific tube when a $10 tube can sound pretty darn good. Another thought it, what if say 8 people try this, and the majority does pick an RCA, or Sylvania, or Melz or Foton or whatever toward the top. It might help me in future purchases. I have my own thoughts on the tubes I like but it would be fun to hear other opinions. I now know a dozen people who bought a specific Melz tube for $100 each and many raved about it, what if it rates no higher than the GE?

Sorry that is a roundabout answer and not a very good one.

Maybe the goal is to show how we are often influenced by the opinions of others, but if we choose for ourselves blindly, the results might be very different.

I just received another small batch of 6sn7's to check out, with more on the way but I expect to be wrapping this up next weekend.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Maybe the goal is to show how we are often influenced by the opinions of others, but if we choose for ourselves blindly, the results might be very different.



An extremely valid point, IMO, even though most of us would probably not admit it voluntarily.

As it turns out I'll have the house to myself in a couple weeks, so the timing will be perfect.  Hard to do critical, comparative listening with interruptions or extraneous noise going on all the time....


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> An extremely valid point, IMO, even though most of us would probably not admit it voluntarily.
> 
> As it turns out I'll have the house to myself in a couple weeks, so the timing will be perfect.  Hard to do critical, comparative listening with interruptions or extraneous noise going on all the time....



If all my tubes suck it will be Bill and his freaking Mind Games BS.  I'll be just an innocent injured party and part of a class action suit.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> If all my tubes suck it will be Bill and his freaking Mind Games BS.  I'll be just an innocent injured party and part of a class action suit.



He led me down the Melz 1578 slippery slope before he had heard them as I recall lol.  The man is a bad influence.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> While it would be hilarious to use 8 GE tubes, I am only putting one in the group. As soon as I mentioned the challenge to Bill, he bet me a steak dinner and bottle of wine that he could place the GE tube at the very bottom as far as SQ and possibly name some of the other brands. I only took him up on the bet on the GE part and me putting more than one GE in the group increases his odds of winning.
> 
> 
> Goal.....I often hear people talk about this brand or that sounding a certain way, and which ones they like really well. Bill in particular hates GE so I wanted to see if he could pick one blind and I suspect that he can do that. He also has a liking for specific tubes that many of us own so I wanted to include some of those in the mix. He is fairly far from me so I went to great lengths to make this as blind as possible. Maybe my goal is to show how we might spend a lot of money on a specific tube when a $10 tube can sound pretty darn good. Another thought it, what if say 8 people try this, and the majority does pick an RCA, or Sylvania, or Melz or Foton or whatever toward the top. It might help me in future purchases. I have my own thoughts on the tubes I like but it would be fun to hear other opinions. I now know a dozen people who bought a specific Melz tube for $100 each and many raved about it, what if it rates no higher than the GE?
> ...


I see.

There are different types of GE SN7s (6sn7gt, gta, gtb). And GE purchased Ken Rad and sold 
some rebranded tubes as well. Make sure you take a picture of the tube before seal it.


----------



## attmci (Jul 6, 2019)

bcowen said:


> An extremely valid point, IMO, even though most of us would probably not admit it voluntarily.
> 
> As it turns out I'll have the house to myself in a couple weeks, so the timing will be perfect.  Hard to do critical, comparative listening with interruptions or extraneous noise going on all the time....


Congrats on being a new home owner!!

And a dad of lots of children soon.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 6, 2019)

attmci said:


> I see.
> 
> There are different types of GE SN7s (6sn7gt, gta, gtb). And GE purchased Ken Rad and sale some rebranded tubes as well. Make sure you take a picture of the tube before seal it.


Fortunately Bill says all GE 6SN7’s are terrible.

I have a fairly extensive tube book library including Tube Lore, RCA and Sylvania manuals. I just got a very nice Ken-Rad but it had GE 188 on it. I got a Bendix that was Sylvania, a Marconi that was GE. If in doubt they will not be in the challenge if I can help it.

To make this fair, Ripper will know the tubes before Bill announces his list.

There are some expensive tubes in the 8, and no Philips ECG lol


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> He led me down the Melz 1578 slippery slope before he had heard them as I recall lol.  The man is a bad influence.




Let's all blame Bill for his special taste. I recall that he love whatever tubes dilivered by a yellow duck. LOL


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> Let's all blame Bill for his special taste. I recall that he love whatever tubes dilivered by a yellow duck. LOL



Yeah, he certainly has some ways about him that are less than normal.

I knew he would love to prove his tube prowess so this has been a fun experience thus far. My test sample has been running four hours now and if nothing else the pvc tube makes the tubes easy to change out quickly, I have not put a temperature probe on it yet but so far so good


----------



## Ripper2860

Don't worry folks!  I've been texting w/ @Paladin79 and he is OK.   He states that this minor setback with a GE tube will not delay the Tube Challenge!!  What a trooper!!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 6, 2019)

I was just checking the "special" tube I had fixed up for Bill and something happened, but good news for Bill, I have plenty of other GE tubes he can listen to.

I say if he loses the bet he has to change his ID to Mr. GETUBE for one month. Or maybe his quote should be "I hated GE tubes but I have seen the error of my ways."

Testing the top chamber of the pvc sleeve, I got 83 degrees F which is not bad at all. PVC is a poor conductor so much of the heat should be rising and is not dissipated by that material.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was just checking the "special" tube I had fixed up for Bill and something happened, but good news for Bill, I have plenty of other GE tubes he can listen to.
> 
> I say if he loses the bet he has to change his ID to Mr. GETUBE for one month. Or maybe his quote should be "I hated GE tubes but I have seen the error of my ways."
> 
> Testing the top chamber of the pvc sleeve, I got 83 degrees F which is not bad at all. PVC is a poor conductor so much of the heat should be rising and is not dissipated by that material.



Let's settle on the steak dinner and _*big*_ bottle of wine.  Otherwise, you can't imagine what I'll dream up for you to do when I win.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Yeah, he certainly has some ways about him that are less than normal.



Some?


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Let's all blame Bill for his special taste. I recall that he love whatever tubes dilivered by a yellow duck. LOL



Your recollection is a bit off.  I liked the duck.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Let's settle on the steak dinner and _*big*_ bottle of wine.  Otherwise, you can't imagine what I'll dream up for you to do when I win.  LOL!


Oh man!!! Why did that thought not cross my mind?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Fortunately Bill says all GE 6SN7’s are terrible.



Geeeez….either your guys memory is shot, or....

I said all GE-_*MADE*_ 6SN7's are terrible. Lots of different manufacturers made 6SN7's for GE and put GE's logo on them. And I will also say for the record that there is the possibility of a GE-MADE 6SN7 that doesn't sound terrible. No doubt they screwed up every now and then and made a tube that was way out of their specs and actually sounded good.  But that's a needle in a haystack kinda thing.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 6, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Your recollection is a bit off.  I liked the duck.



Was it the yellow duck or the 15 year old girl on the duck that you were so smitten by?  That has not been definitively determined as the FBI is still doing their computer forensics on your work computer.  



Paladin79 said:


> Oh man!!! Why did that thought not cross my mind?



Ooooh.  This may be a GAME CHANGER!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> If all my tubes suck it will be Bill and his freaking Mind Games BS.  I'll be just an innocent injured party and part of a class action suit.



Feel free to send me all your tubes.  I'll keep the 3 good ones and pawn the rest off on Ebay for $10 OBO for the lot.

Don't worry...I'll PayPal you the Ebay proceeds immediately.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Geeeez….either your guys memory is shot, or....
> 
> I said all GE-_*MADE*_ 6SN7's are terrible. Lots of different manufacturers made 6SN7's for GE and put GE's logo on them. And I will also say for the record that there is the possibility of a GE-MADE 6SN7 that doesn't sound terrible. No doubt they screwed up every now and then and made a tube that was way out of their specs and actually sounded good.  But that's a needle in a haystack kinda thing.


Well no doubt I used a GE made GE for the challenge.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well no doubt I used a GE made GE for the challenge.



And I have no doubt of that either. I think you really want to know what happens with a truly blind test (rather than just a 'let's see if we can embarrass Bill' experiment) and as such have done everything possible to make it valid and fair.  What I don't get is why nobody else signed on for the challenge.  Chickens?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 6, 2019)

As if there will be any tubes left...

Possibilities in no particular order...

1. They will overheat and explode.
2. Once the tubes are revealed and you find you rated a legit GE as #1, you will destroy them all in a fit of rage, burying all evidence somewhere on Kings Mountain.**
3. You will declare they all suck equally and this challenge has been a total waste of your time and then destroy them all in a fit of rage, burying all evidence somewhere on Kings Mountain.**
4. You will claim you never received the tubes due to a porch pirate or some other lame excuse for fear that you may select another tube ahead of a GE and could permanently damage your standing at HF further than it is already.   And then you will destroy them all in a fit of rage, burying all evidence somewhere on Kings Mountain.**

I don't think the tubes will make it past its 1st recipient.


** Assuming your Mazda RX-8 does not break down along the way.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> As if there will be any tubes left...
> 
> Possibilities in no particular order...
> 
> ...



You keep forgetting, but according to you I have no reputation or imagination.  Only thing I have to lose is the cost of buying Tom a steak dinner, which I'd probably pay for anyway if we ever got a chance to meet up.  On the bright side, if it turns out I actually like the GE, I have about 20 of 'em upstairs that will suddenly become good tubes.  LOL!!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 7, 2019)

Let me set you straight there, buddy.

1. A crappy reputation is still a reputation.  
2. You have no imagination. That's why I know you'll be taking the tube remains to Kings Mountain.  So predictable.  


Well, I've avoided steam cleaning the carpet as long as I could.  Gotta go!!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> And I have no doubt of that either. I think you really want to know what happens with a truly blind test (rather than just a 'let's see if we can embarrass Bill' experiment) and as such have done everything possible to make it valid and fair.  What I don't get is why nobody else signed on for the challenge.  Chickens?



I do have others who want to try but many on this thread are out of the country and explaining these to customs would be a nightmare. 

I am using some highly rated tubes so you have a good chance of coming out on top, there are two in the batch that could give you trouble.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You keep forgetting, but according to you I have no reputation or imagination.  Only thing I have to lose is the cost of buying Tom a steak dinner, which I'd probably pay for anyway if we ever got a chance to meet up.  On the bright side, if it turns out I actually like the GE, I have about 20 of 'em upstairs that will suddenly become good tubes.  LOL!!



Just like some of the Russian tubes you guys search for, there may well be a GE tube from a specific year that is quite remarkable but that stupid dot date code system would make them hard to spot.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> And I have no doubt of that either. I think you really want to know what happens with a truly blind test (rather than just a 'let's see if we can embarrass Bill' experiment) and as such have done everything possible to make it valid and fair.  What I don't get is why nobody else signed on for the challenge.  Chickens?


Nope.

I will have to buy a brand new TOTL amp plus an ear exam for the test. I am too cheap to take the challenge.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> Nope.
> 
> I will have to buy a brand new TOTL amp plus an ear exam for the test. I am too cheap to take the challenge.



I have plenty of amps but it is fun to try to improve an inexpensive amp if you can get enough tube sound to come through. Dual 7A4’s of the correct type make a big difference in the Vali 2, I have a harder time with 6SN7’s in it.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, I've avoided steam cleaning the carpet as long as I could.  Gotta go!!



Is there padding under that carpet or is it glued directly to the floor of the cave?


----------



## Ripper2860

Straight to the floor, BangyBang style!!

(Astro-turf, BTW.  You know how Texans are about their football!!)


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 6, 2019)

@bcowen : For the record -- I don't think Tom WANTS to embarrass you.  That would just be an added BONUS!!!


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen : For the record -- I don't think Tom WANTS to embarrass you.  That would just be an added BONUS!!!


It is one thing to enjoy a specific sound, another to find it consistently. Bill had the courage to take on the quest, and stand by his GE ambivalence.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen : For the record -- I don't think Tom WANTS to embarrass you.  That would just be an added BONUS!!!



Actually, I applaud Tom for going to the considerable amount of thought, time, and expense to put this test together. Win or lose, I'll learn something. And if I end up being totally embarrassed, it won't be the first time and unlikely to be the last.  I'm a big boy, and I'd rather know the actual truth even if it shatters my preconceived notions.  But not to worry...I'll gloat like a MF'er if I win.  LOL!


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> I have plenty of amps but it is fun to try to improve an inexpensive amp if you can get enough tube sound to come through. Dual 7A4’s of the correct type make a big difference in the Vali 2, I have a harder time with 6SN7’s in it.


Tom，I believe some of the tubes will sound good on all of your amps, but the GE and the others could be nice to pair with certain amp.


----------



## Paladin79

One tube I did not like the sound of in my Bottlehead Crack, (highly customized) was a black glass RCA from the 40's as I recall. The bass was just too much but in other amps, it was quite nice. It worked well in another Crack I built but I have really worked on the sound signature of this particular amp and most times tubes mesh with it but not always.

The GE tubes are tricky but I did find one that should work for the challenge, i do not own a Lyr 3 so it is a little hard for me to know what it would be like in there. 

I have some young musicians coming over soon and I want to get their reaction to a few tubes. My amps are being feed from a Freya Plus with a quad of Mels 1578's in it and those might even cause a GE to sound better than usual lol. I should not leave those tubes in there too long because they would spoil me for most other quads.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Actually, I applaud Tom for going to the considerable amount of thought, time, and expense to put this test together. Win or lose, I'll learn something. And if I end up being totally embarrassed, it won't be the first time and unlikely to be the last.  I'm a big boy, and I'd rather know the actual truth even if it shatters my preconceived notions.  But not to worry...I'll gloat like a MF'er if I win.  LOL!



Thanks Bill, and if you do not choose the GE I will make no attempt to make you feel bad, Ripper will most likely wear out a keyboard typing his responses but I am just happy to have someone with your background take the time. I just PM'd you a performance by Rachael Price and Chris Thile you might enjoy, most anyone can look it up but I was not too sure about posting it publicly, they are covering a Tom Waits song...Take it with me is the song's name if anyone else wants to look it up.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 7, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Actually, I applaud Tom for going to the considerable amount of thought, time, and expense to put this test together. Win or lose, I'll learn something. And if I end up being totally embarrassed, it won't be the first time and unlikely to be the last.  I'm a big boy, and I'd rather know the actual truth even if it shatters my preconceived notions.  But not to worry...I'll gloat like a MF'er if I win.  LOL!



A very level-headed and mature response ...

*WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH BILL???!!!!  
*


Paladin79 said:


> Thanks Bill, and if you do not choose the GE I will make no attempt to make you feel bad, Ripper will most likely wear out a keyboard typing his responses...



Well, duh!!!


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> Goal.....I often hear people talk about this brand or that sounding a certain way, and which ones they like really well. Bill, in particular, hates GE so I wanted to see if he could pick one blind and I suspect that he can do that. He also has a liking for specific tubes that many of us own so I wanted to include some of those in the mix. He is fairly far from me so I went to great lengths to make this as blind as possible. _*Maybe my goal is to show how we might spend a lot of money on a specific tube when a $10 tube can sound pretty darn good. *_Another thought it, what if say 8 people try this, and the majority does pick an RCA, or Sylvania, or Melz or Foton or whatever toward the top. It might help me in future purchases. I have my own thoughts on the tubes I like but it would be fun to hear other opinions. I now know a dozen people who bought a specific Melz tube for $100 each and many raved about it, what if it rates no higher than the GE?



We can agree on that point. While I understand that a "used, but tests good" tube may be in the *Denoument* of its tube life, there can be found such deals which you get three mismatched varietal 6SN7 for $10. 
If they last a month, or two, OK, they were good while they lasted. 
I no longer mourn the passing of the incandescent light bulb which one day just went "poof" when you gave it power, nor will I miss a tube. I mourned my first Mouse-ears demise due to a gravity and impact issue...

The New Production JJ-Electronic tubes are very good quality, reasonably priced, not Chinese or Russian. 
I am still plagued with the Audiophile Paradox--only 24 hours per day, and still only two ears. 
No matter how good it sounds, we are constrained.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ripper will most likely wear out a keyboard typing his responses...



I think @Ripper2860 responds mostly on his phone, so he'll definitely wear out the keypad on his Radio Shack flip phone.  High time for him to jump forward a couple decades anyway.


----------



## Ripper2860

Hey, it is NOS, and sounds better than current new production flip-phones.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> I no longer mourn the passing of the incandescent light bulb which one day just went "poof" when you gave it power...



You still have incandescent light bulbs?  Really?  I mean an old audio tube is one thing, but a light bulb is a light bulb. Unless there's a niche market for high end light bulbs I'm unaware of.    Go hit up Duke Power -- they nearly give compact fluorescents away and sell LED's for 25% of what you'd pay at WalMart or Home Depot.

Funny story -- only recently have (reliable) replaceable LED's been developed for high heat applications like the product I make at work. When we'd ship a kitchen hood package to several central American countries we'd have to send incandescent bulbs with them because they had already been outlawed down there.  I don't think you'd get shot or anything if you used them, but nobody was allowed to sell them. Probably will be that way here before long...


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> You still have incandescent light bulbs?  Really?  I mean an old audio tube is one thing, but a light bulb is a light bulb. Unless there's a niche market for high-end light bulbs I'm unaware of.    Go hit up Duke Power -- they nearly give compact fluorescents away and sell LED's for 25% of what you'd pay at WalMart or Home Depot.



_I no longer mourn the passing of the incandescent light bulb which one day just went "poof" when you gave it power... _All in the past tense, I have had high-efficiency free lightbulbs from Duke since they first sent them. I have the disabled rate which means paying for power is a struggle. But even in a 1948 circa apartment with two air conditioners and all this computer and stereo--still about $60 a month, so I cannot complain. Yes, the high efficiency LED light bulbs are a much better quality of light. I like the cold white ones--something they had to put in the blue glass to achieve in incandescent.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> Hey, it is NOS, and sounds better than current new production flip-phones.


I wanted my old dumb phone to be reactivated, apparently once they switch you to a smart phone, you cannot regress to an easier time, without getting Consumer Cellular and one of those flip phones with the 9 numbers as big as the entire phone.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> You still have incandescent light bulbs?  Really?  I mean an old audio tube is one thing, but a light bulb is a light bulb. Unless there's a niche market for high end light bulbs I'm unaware of.    Go hit up Duke Power -- they nearly give compact fluorescents away and sell LED's for 25% of what you'd pay at WalMart or Home Depot.
> 
> Funny story -- only recently have (reliable) replaceable LED's been developed for high heat applications like the product I make at work. When we'd ship a kitchen hood package to several central American countries we'd have to send incandescent bulbs with them because they had already been outlawed down there.  I don't think you'd get shot or anything if you used them, but nobody was allowed to sell them. Probably will be that way here before long...



We banned incandescent bulbs a few year back in Canada. Canadian gun laws say a person can't be shot for still using them, but you will be branded a climate change denier if you do


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Canadian gun laws say a person can't be shot for still using them...



How disappointing.  I'm still hoping they'll soon make it legal down here to shoot left-lane pig jerks on interstate highways.  Will thin the population pretty quickly, especially if the car has a South Carolina plate on it.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Thanks Bill, and if you do not choose the GE I will make no attempt to make you feel bad, Ripper will most likely wear out a keyboard typing his responses but I am just happy to have someone with your background take the time. I just PM'd you a performance by Rachael Price and Chris Thile you might enjoy, most anyone can look it up but I was not too sure about posting it publicly, they are covering a Tom Waits song...Take it with me is the song's name if anyone else wants to look it up.



OK, here's the playlist for the challenge. I'm going to spend the next week refamiliarizing myself with the sound in low gain on the Lyr 3. I normally listen in high gain -- seems a little more dynamic and punchier -- but the character of the tube in play stands out more in low gain. I'm sure @Ripper2860 will be disappointed it's not just a list of Marilyn Manson songs, but I do listen to other things once in a while. Rare, but it happens. 

No particular order for listening, just alphabetized by the folder I stuck 'em in.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 7, 2019)

I pity the tubes...


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Wikipedia contributors. (2019, February 13). There's a sucker born every minute. In _Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia_. Retrieved 19:03, July 7, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=There's_a_sucker_born_every_minute&oldid=883126762

Apparently, he never said it. Me? I’ll just slowly back out of the room. Whoah.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I pity the tubes...



I was going to give the pins a last cleanup before I sent them on to Bill but why bother?  Bills choices are certainly, um, interesting?  I am beginning to understand why his family left him alone with his music.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was going to give the pins a last cleanup before I sent them on to Bill but why bother?  Bills choices are certainly, um, interesting?  I am beginning to understand why his family left him alone with his music.



Alright, now if this is going to become a "make fun of the music choice" thing, I'll just say right now that I'd probably throw up if I listened to what you guys do.

So there.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Alright, now if this is going to become a "make fun of the music choice" thing, I'll just say right now that I'd probably throw up if I listened to what you guys do.
> 
> So there.



LMAO, did you  happen to check out that link I sent. I was listening to Rachael Price most of the day. 



heck i could watch her just stand there, she does not need to sing but it is a treat when she does.


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Wikipedia contributors. (2019, February 13). There's a sucker born every minute. In _Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia_. Retrieved 19:03, July 7, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=There's_a_sucker_born_every_minute&oldid=883126762
> 
> Apparently, he never said it. Me? I’ll just slowly back out of the room. Whoah.



Yeah, there's no evidence to prove the sucker quote came from him.  The one I like best (which as far as I know *did* in fact come from him):

“No man ever went broke overestimating the ignorance of the American public.” 

I could add some stuff to that, but won't.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LMAO, did you  happen to check out that link I sent.



Not yet. But I will tonight. Been working on some, um, _person's_ tester....again.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am beginning to understand why his family left him alone with his music.



Now you know why I must choose among closed headphone designs.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Not yet. But I will tonight. Been working on some, um, _person's_ tester....again.  LOL!



Bill are you sure it is safe to send it back. Can you not find one with training wheels on it?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Now you know why I must choose among closed headphone designs.



Yikes no wonder you can hear things others cannot. You get more practice, the sound just keeps bouncing around inside the headphones and you have no choice but to hear ever harmonic. Let some of it out sometime, use speakers or buy an accordion and learn polka music or something. It worked for Weird Al. Of course your name is not Al but you are nearly there.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> Bill are you sure it is safe to send it back. Can you not find one with training wheels on it?



For the record - I have never taken possession of the referenced tester.  Bill broke it before I even paid for it.  The BK tester I have is just fine, thank you.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> For the record - I have never taken possession of the referenced tester.  Bill broke it before I even paid for it.  The BK tester I have is just fine, thank you.


 Dang, I may need to use thicker PVC on the tubes I am sending, I hope they are safe lol.


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> For the record - I have never taken possession of the referenced tester.  Bill broke it before I even paid for it.  The BK tester I have is just fine, thank you.


You haven't gotten the Hickok yet? He @bcowen building it from scratch?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> For the record - I have never taken possession of the referenced tester.  Bill broke it before I even paid for it.  The BK tester I have is just fine, thank you.



Actually, it was my intense attention to detail and scrutiny of every function and operation with this tester that resulted in the discovery of a flaw. If I'd been like most Ebay sellers I'd have just said "turned it on and the light came on" and let it go at that.  But even for people other than @Ripper2860 I wouldn't do that.    I crack up at most of these testers on Ebay as "Works!"   Most of the time the only thing that works is the pilot light (and sometimes even that is equipped with the wrong bulb). Wish I'd kept the link for the B&K 747B some guy advertised a couple months ago. "Unbelievable condition! Excellent cosmetics! Calibrated perfectly to B&K specs!"  There was no lid (the hinge was totally corroded and the lid probably just fell off and got lost at some point), the thing was about as filthy as I've yet seen, the meter's plastic cover was cracked all the way through, three knobs missing, line cord had dry-rotted spots where the insulation was totally gone. If he'd even plugged this thing in it probably would have tripped his house breaker, let alone power it up to the point of calibrating it.  And he has a Buy it Now price of $999 stuck on it. I was ROFL. It was worth maybe $99 as a parts donor unit to fix up a decent 747B that needed a hard to find part or two. OK, I'll quit...or never stop.  

Now if anybody wants a tester really bad, I can send them a really bad tester.


----------



## Mr Trev

Ripper2860 said:


> I pity the tubes...



I can't read this without hearing Mr. T's voice…


----------



## Ripper2860

TK16 said:


> You haven't gotten the Hickok yet? He @bcowen building it from scratch?



He's in over his head but won't admit it!


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> He's in over his head but won't admit it!


I would never mention this in public, I tend to agree. Please don't share this PM.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Actually, it was my intense attention to detail and scrutiny of every function and operation with this tester that resulted in the discovery of a flaw. If I'd been like most Ebay sellers I'd have just said "turned it on and the light came on" and let it go at that.  But even for people other than @Ripper2860 I wouldn't do that.    I crack up at most of these testers on Ebay as "Works!"   Most of the time the only thing that works is the pilot light (and sometimes even that is equipped with the wrong bulb). Wish I'd kept the link for the B&K 747B some guy advertised a couple months ago. "Unbelievable condition! Excellent cosmetics! Calibrated perfectly to B&K specs!"  There was no lid (the hinge was totally corroded and the lid probably just fell off and got lost at some point), the thing was about as filthy as I've yet seen, the meter's plastic cover was cracked all the way through, three knobs missing, line cord had dry-rotted spots where the insulation was totally gone. If he'd even plugged this thing in it probably would have tripped his house breaker, let alone power it up to the point of calibrating it.  And he has a Buy it Now price of $999 stuck on it. I was ROFL. It was worth maybe $99 as a parts donor unit to fix up a decent 747B that needed a hard to find part or two. OK, I'll quit...or never stop.
> 
> Now if anybody wants a tester really bad, I can send them a really bad tester.



I would offer to help but I have a few other projects in front of me, including a few DIY builds. I am intrigued by matching up a really low impedance on one project but much of that is more theory than work.

I lucked out on my B&K tester, it came from a university and most likelyhad just been stored for many years. They also either had someone doing test maintenance or had sent the device back to B&K at some point. My B&K has a removable lid, you just slide it side ways on the hinge pins and it comes right off, someone may have done that and never put it back.


----------



## bcowen (Jul 8, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I lucked out on my B&K tester, it came from a university and most likelyhad just been stored for many years. They also either had someone doing test maintenance or had sent the device back to B&K at some point. My B&K has a removable lid, you just slide it side ways on the hinge pins and it comes right off, someone may have done that and never put it back.



The 747's have a different hinge arrangement. They have a long steel pin that slides through multiple alternating top and base protrusions from end-to-end.  While it would be possible (I assume) to pull that long pin all the way out and separate the two pieces without damaging anything, it doesn't appear they intended the lid to be easily removable like your 707 and most Hickoks.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> He's in over his head but won't admit it!



Just for the record, I'm only in over my head if I can't fix it.  Wanna bet a steak dinner on _*that*_*? *


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> I would never mention this in public, I tend to agree. Please don't share this PM.



How many times do we have to tell you the Lyr Tube Rollers thread is the *2nd* door on the right?  Sheeez.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> How many times do we have to tell you the Lyr Tube Rollers thread is the *2nd* door on the right?  Sheeez.


That`s it! Anything in my sig is now 2x price for you guys in this thread! 1 more outburst will be 4x BangBangTubes style!


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> That`s it! Anything in my sig is now 2x price for you guys in this thread! 1 more outburst will be 4x BangBangTubes style!



2x?  And no carpet?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Ooops.  Guess that's 4x now....and still no carpet.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The 747's have a different hinge arrangement. They have a long steel pin that slides through multiple alternating top and base protrusions from end-to-end.  While it would be possible (I assume) to pull that long pin all the way out and separate the two pieces without damaging anything, it doesn't appear they intended the lid to be easily removable like your 707 and most Hickoks.



I stand corrected. I kept looking for a 747 but settled on the 707 because of its condition, to be honest I forgot which model I owned. 



bcowen said:


> Just for the record, I'm only in over my head if I can't fix it. Wanna bet a steak dinner on _*that*_*? *



I am reminded of a business I started many years ago repairing computer monitors, I was the second person in Indiana to do such repair. (eventually I had ten people I trained working for me.) Later I ran into someone in the same business and he basically said he repaired every computer monitor he ever received. I was amazed because much of the work was done without schematics and parts were difficult to get. Later the same gentleman said, I fixed every monitor, except for all the ones I threw away! There comes a time when the amount of work and frustration outweighs the rewards of fixing a product.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ...to be honest I forgot which model I owned.



They say the memory is the first thing....oh, nevermind.  



Paladin79 said:


> There comes a time when the amount of work and frustration outweighs the rewards of fixing a product.



Very true.  I have a Hickok TV-3 in beautiful cosmetic condition sitting in the closet.  I was so happy to get it, and then got so frustrated with it I'm happy to use its parts as donors for other testers. Never could get it working right. I suspect the transformer has internal shorts or open windings because the readings are all over the map (and not the_ correct_ map).  The TV-3's were built primarily for the Navy and they sprayed some kind of anti-fungal, anti-corrosion gook all over the inside.  At this point it's like a hard lacquer covering every metal contact, so trying to get a test reading requires a bucket of Q-tips and lacquer thinner just to get down to the bare metal for the meter probes to contact. In fact this particular tester donated its fuse bulb socket to Rippers 752 'cause some genius had wired some other contraption in its place and totally defeated the purpose of the #81 bulb. Fuse? Who needs a fuse?  Just stick a neon bulb in there instead and it'll never burn out.  Surprised they didn't just solder the two wires together.  Grrrrr......


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> They say the memory is the first thing....oh, nevermind.






Well I do have a lot of test gear in my shop so model numbers can escape me, here are a few things I brought in just to compare some headphone wires. I had to stop and build a couple switch boxes as well as using some that were pre-made.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> 2x?  And no carpet?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
> 
> Ooops.  Guess that's 4x now....and still no carpet.


I don't have the funds to match Bangybangtubes lush carpeting, I wish I did. I can only offer honest tested readings to compensate. Probably not good enough. Carpeting makes all the difference.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> Well I do have a lot of test gear in my shop so model numbers can escape me, here are a few things I brought in just to compare some headphone wires. I had to stop and build a couple switch boxes as well as using some that were pre-made.



OK.  Now that we see what you use for your human reanimation project, what do you actually use for audio related stuff??


----------



## bcowen

Seems the price of Frankies is starting to get absurd.  Glad I hoarded collected my lifetime supply already.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> OK.  Now that we see what you use for your human reanimation project, what do you actually use for audio related stuff??



I bet I know how to turn all that stuff on.  I'd be in over my head trying to actually use any of it though.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> OK.  Now that we see what you use for your human reanimation project, what do you actually use for audio related stuff??



And I'd love to know what you'd use for a @Ripper2860 reanimation.  That's probably classified though.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Seems the price of Frankies is starting to get absurd.  Glad I hoarded collected my lifetime supply already.  LOL!



But do you own Tung Sols? And are you not tempted to buy them?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> And I'd love to know what you'd use for a @Ripper2860 reanimation.  That's probably classified though.



I would start with basics just like the early works of Galvani and Aldini, put him in salt water and attach an electrode to each leg and hope for the best. At the very least it might cause someone to write a sci-fi book a la Mary Shelly and Frankenstein.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 8, 2019)

I saw those this morning and almost pulled the trigger, but then I was overwhelmed by a feeling I've never felt before -- I think it is called self-restraint -- and decide to pass on them.  They do look rather nice.



Paladin79 said:


> I would start with basics just like the early works of Galvani and Aldini, put him in salt water and attach an electrode to each leg and hope for the best. At the very least it might cause someone to write a sci-fi book a la Mary Shelly and Frankenstein.



I'm up for anything as long as it does not involve attaching electrodes to my nether-regions...

Never mind.  Wrong forum.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> But do you own Tung Sols? And are you not tempted to buy them?



I don't have any Frankies with a Tung-Sol label.  But they were made by Sylvania anyway. I have several Tung-Sol labeled short bottle versions (assume they were Sylvania made as well), but they are a big step down from a real Frankie.  And although this will sound very strange coming from me, I have zero temptation to pay $80 for these.  I can't think of any Frankie that I paid more than $15 (each) for.  But there's also that memory thing at my age, so take that FWIW.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I would start with basics just like the early works of Galvani and Aldini, put him in salt water and attach an electrode to each leg and hope for the best. At the very least it might cause someone to write a sci-fi book a la Mary Shelly and Frankenstein.



Which would then bring up the big question:  why even try?  LOL!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I saw those this morning and almost pulled the trigger, but then I was overwhelmed by a feeling I've never felt before -- I think it is called self-restraint -- and decide to pass on them.



You should probably take the rest of the day off as a sick day.  Obviously appropriate.


----------



## Ripper2860

I know.  I'm still feeling a bit woozy.


----------



## Paladin79

I came across this photo and I want to say it was taken the @bcowen  kitchen, but I am only about 60% sure so I best not say much. Note the GE tubes with dampening rings.   If you believe in one, you might as well believe in the other.


----------



## bcowen (Jul 8, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I came across this photo and I want to say it was taken the @bcowen  kitchen, but I am only about 60% sure so I best not say much. Note the GE tubes with dampening rings.   If you believe in one, you might as well believe in the other.



ROFL!  Funny how one that looks just (almost kinda) like that one will be at your door soon. 

Just a couple variances:

1) My countertop is marble.
2) If I was going to take a picture of it there wouldn't be any GE boxes sitting beside it. And certainly wouldn't be any GE tubes _in_ it.  That's borderline blasphemous.
3) Looks like a fingerprint in the center of the transformer cover which would never happen with my stuff.  Maybe it's just a photo reflection, so a possible nevermind on that. 
4) I've tried a half-dozen different styles and configurations of tube dampers and they've all had one thing in common: they suck the life out of the music. A couple have done some nice things from the usual 'audiophile' perspective (quieter, less background noise, even some extra perceived detail and bass extension at times, but then I've found that the music is no longer engaging. Sucked of its soul. Boring, snoring.  Makes you want to turn off the stereo and go clean up dog poop in the back yard.  But that's just me, and obviously I haven't tried every variation out there.  Those look like Herbies, and if so I'll say that I really like most everything of Herbies that I've tried.  Just not those.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 8, 2019)

DELETED.  Too silly -- even for me.

@bcowen  -- Did you send your Cary Tube Burn-in Station to Tom??


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> DELETED.  Too silly -- even for me.



Now that's a Guinness-worthy event.  




Ripper2860 said:


> BTW -- Did you send you Cary Tube Burn-in Station to Tom??



Yup.  But please get the terminology correct -- it's the CBI (Cary Burner-Inner).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  Funny how one that looks just (almost kinda) like that one will be at your door soon.
> 
> Just a couple variances:
> 
> ...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ...and those Cary amps have been around forever.



So has marble.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So has marble.



True. Anyway I look forward to running a Cary pre-amp with a Cary amp. I have some matched GE 6sn7's somewhere I can plug into it if you gloat too much when you win a steak dinner.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 8, 2019)

If that preamp could talk -- the stories it would tell about Bill's unrelenting quest for tube nirvana and the shameless things that the poor preamp has been forced to endure.  Oh the humanity!!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> If that preamp could talk -- the stories it would tell about Bill's unrelenting quest for tube nirvana and the shameless things that the poor preamp has been forced to endure.  Oh the humanity!!!



I can tell you right now it will start talking (in English, even) if Tom puts GE's in it: "You mother****** I HATE you!".


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I can tell you right now it will start talking (in English, even) if Tom puts GE's in it: "You mother****** I HATE you!".


Lol I saw a show about Jack White once and he was using cheap guitars and amps, he had to work so much harder to make them sound good. The Cary might do the same thing.


----------



## attmci (Jul 8, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> One tube I did not like the sound of in my Bottlehead Crack, (highly customized) was a black glass RCA from the 40's as I recall. The bass was just too much but in other amps, it was quite nice. It worked well in another Crack I built but I have really worked on the sound signature of this particular amp and most times tubes mesh with it but not always.
> 
> The GE tubes are tricky but I did find one that should work for the challenge, i do not own a Lyr 3 so it is a little hard for me to know what it would be like in there.
> 
> I have some young musicians coming over soon and I want to get their reaction to a few tubes. My amps are being feed from a Freya Plus with a quad of Mels 1578's in it and those might even cause a GE to sound better than usual lol. I should not leave those tubes in there too long because they would spoil me for most other quads.


It might also depend on which headphone you were using (assume same DAC). I have a set of tubes sounds great with my LCD-3 (C-top 5998s output, TS BGRP driver, 422A rectifier). But the 800 sounds wired using the same set of tubes. But everyone has his/her own tastes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 9, 2019)

It might also depend on which headphone you were using (assume same DAC). I have a set of tubes sounds great with my LCD-3 (C-top 5998s output, TS BGRP driver, 422A rectifier). But the 800 sounds wired using the same set of tubes. But everyone has his/her own tastes. 

I was commenting on the BH Crack only of course.

I have three different headphones I use and all are in the proper impedance range for the Crack, one Sennheiser and two that are highly modified with Beyer dynamic drivers. (One of which I built myself.)

I would have thought the Audeze impedance a bit low if it is 110 ohm but if you like the sound you like it.

I have used various 5998’s, 6080’s, and others and generally my headphones match very well with the tubes. I notice a lot less difference changing power tubes compared to driver.

I need to run some impedance checks soon anyway and I will check the BH once more, once set up it is no problem to sub in other amps.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> But everyone has his/her own tastes.



Except @Ripper2860 who has no taste at all.  At least that's what I've heard.


----------



## Ripper2860

I possess a genetic mutation that prevents me from building up ear wax, creating tears, and also renders me unable to taste.  It is a burden I must carry.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I possess a genetic mutation that prevents me from building up ear wax, creating tears, and also renders me unable to taste.  It is a burden I must carry.


Speaking of taste, and this is totally off topic. Ever heard of Maestro Dobel Silver 750 tequila?  I have a chance to buy some at a very low price and normally it runs about $40 a bottle supposedly.
@Ripper2860 , hopefully you know it or have heard of it.


----------



## Ripper2860

It is a very nice smooth Tequila and does not render a hang-over if drank in excess.  

$40 is about right.  Runs about $37 a bottle around here.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> It is a very nice smooth Tequila and does not render a hang-over if drank in excess.
> 
> $40 is about right.  Runs about $37 a bottle around here.



Ok at $16 a bottle I may grab a few. thanks


----------



## Ripper2860

Wow!!!!    What a sweeeet deal!!!


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Wow!!!!    What a sweeeet deal!!!



I just heard about it yesterday and they have 1,000 bottles at several locations. If I do not grab it on my way home we will search a few more of their locations.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> Ok at $16 a bottle I may grab a few. thanks


@Ripper2860...that sounds almost like an invitation to make a Southern Indiana run...Half-price liquor and Beautiful Women in Bloomington (Summer school, I might add used to be the best time for Coed perusal) Don't forget to get @Paladin79 to show you the Quarries for a cool skinny dip...


----------



## bcowen (Jul 9, 2019)

Robert Padgett said:


> @Ripper2860...that sounds almost like an invitation to make a Southern Indiana run...Half-price liquor and Beautiful Women in Bloomington (Summer school, I might add used to be the best time for Coed perusal) Don't forget to get @Paladin79 to show you the Quarries for a cool skinny dip...



We're supposed to be talking about (audio) tubes here. 

More details on the coed perusal thing please (especially if inflatable ducks are involved).


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> We're supposed to be talking about (audio) tubes here.
> 
> More details on the coed perusal thing please (especially if inflatable ducks are involved).



I thought I died and went to Coed heaven in 1975. 

Imagine Chapel Hill, with really beautiful women...Little Rubber Duckies used to appear in the Jordan River (The creek which runs through the IU campus) for a charity duck race. 

Inflatables are not that common, as they have an over-supply of real Coeds, so sales of the blow-up type are weak. As for tubes, I was a Solidstate Man back then...


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> I thought I died and went to Coed heaven in 1975.
> 
> Imagine Chapel Hill, with really beautiful women...Little Rubber Duckies used to appear in the Jordan River (The creek which runs through the IU campus) for a charity duck race.
> 
> Inflatables are not that common, as they have an over-supply of real Coeds, so sales of the blow-up type are weak. As for tubes, I was a Solidstate Man back then...



Hmmm.  OK, guess I'll have to hit up @Ripper2860 to share some expertise on the blow up things.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 9, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Hmmm.  OK, guess I'll have to hit up @Ripper2860 to share some expertise on the blow up things.



@bcowen so say I use an aluminum case on an impedance matching device I am soon to construct, would you want it black to match the Cary pre-amp or would blue or red  be more to your liking?  The formula is not too complex for figuring this Ro=Rl (V open/Vl-1) that is just a voltage measurement that lets you calculate impedance. There are a couple other ways but this one is pretty simple.

I am not sure I can locate the case in GE tube box orange but I can try I guess.


----------



## Ripper2860

Bill would prefer either pink or rubber duckie yellow.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 9, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Bill would prefer either pink or rubber duckie yellow.



Ok thanks, I will proceed with it knowing full well you are his legal guardian and have power of attorney on such choices. The blue can be pretty snazzy though.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'll give you artistic license to meld the 2 options into a pink with yellow duckies work of art.  Best of both worlds!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> @bcowen so say I use an aluminum case on an impedance matching device I am soon to construct, would you want it black to match the Cary pre-amp or would blue or red  be more to your liking?  The formula is not too complex for figuring this Ro=Rl (V open/Vl-1) that is just a voltage measurement that lets you calculate impedance. There are a couple other ways but this one is pretty simple.
> 
> I am not sure I can locate the case in GE tube box orange but I can try I guess.



Actually, I was hoping for something in Manchurian Ash or alternatively an African Blackwood.  But if you're out of stock on those, I suppose I can live with something else.  

Seriously, the blue you show in this picture is pretty darn cool. Almost matches the blue end caps on the Aeons.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll give you artistic license to meld the 2 options into a pink with yellow duckies work of art.  Best of both worlds!!



Only if he can get a tutu permanently affixed.  Do you have a spare you can send him?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 9, 2019)

Sure.  No need to be shy.  I know you want it so consider it yours.  My daughter outgrew her's years ago.  A wee wisp of a 'man' like you should look just dandy in it.


----------



## Robert Padgett

I did it. I reflowed the solder in the pins of the Buzzing Melz 1578, per instructions from both @bcowen and @Ripper2860. I didn't drop the tube, or let the solder flow back into the glass, and so far, dead silent even while up to operating temperature. I am still adverse to DIY and soldering anything else, but I was able to salvage the generous gift of this vintage tube, and I am HAPPY!


----------



## Ripper2860

Congrats.  

BTW -- If solder can flow into the glass envelope of a vacuum tube, you've got bigger problems.  The base is what you likely meant.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> I did it. I reflowed the solder in the pins of the Buzzing Melz 1578, per instructions from both @bcowen and @Ripper2860. I didn't drop the tube, or let the solder flow back into the glass, and so far, dead silent even while up to operating temperature. I am still adverse to DIY and soldering anything else, but I was able to salvage the generous gift of this vintage tube, and I am HAPPY!



You're the MAN!  Go Robert Go!  

Not that hard to do, but I gotta say that the pictures Tom has shown of *his* reflowing/resoldering makes mine look like schiit.  I comfort myself knowing that I don't have to look at it once the tube is in the amp.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 9, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Actually, I was hoping for something in Manchurian Ash or alternatively an African Blackwood.  But if you're out of stock on those, I suppose I can live with something else.
> 
> Seriously, the blue you show in this picture is pretty darn cool. Almost matches the blue end caps on the Aeons.



 Ok lagoon blue it is!

My wife buys cars that way, by color. It is how I got her to accept a Chrysler 300, she had no idea what the car was otherwise.

Now if I can just get the electronic components I envision using to match up with some theory and equations we should be in good shape on the Cary experiment. If it does not work I will send you a dvd of the movie Carrie and you can just watch that instead Bill.

Oh and on the Melz I never reuse the existing solder, I always remove it and add something that is not 60 years old and starting to crumble. I am happy to go into an explanation of solder and how it is essential that you clean the metal but hopefully some of  you already understand parts of that.


 There are plenty of American tubes that age whose solder is fine, but hard telling what the Russians were using and truthfully I do not trust it. I also suspect that is part of the issue of Fotons "changing sound" after so many hours and I will be performing some tests soon to see if that is part of the issue.
I did discover one or two 1954 Foton's with ridged (jribbed) plates in my collection and I will perform some of my experiments with one of those. Listening is one factor but if I can measure and show a change, and transpose one image over the other, it can tell me so much more.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok lagoon blue it is!
> 
> My wife buys cars that way, by color. It is how I got her to accept a Chrysler 300, she had no idea what the car was otherwise.
> 
> ...



Oooohhh….didn't know the blue had a name. Lagoon blue makes it even more cool.  And if the Cary blows up, it'll be just one less thing to dust and I'll be thanking you for the labor you've saved me. 

You know, I'd never even considered the solder as a potential cause for the change in sound. On one hand, if it *is* the solder, it seems that the sound would just keep changing forever as the electrical contact constantly shifted around. I don't have much experience with the Melz, but the Fotons settled into a consistent sound after the lengthy break-in period. On the other hand, who the hell knows. Be interesting to measure one as it is, and then one where you've totally replaced the solder and see if there's any difference ---- before any break-in time ever enters the picture.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Oooohhh….didn't know the blue had a name. Lagoon blue makes it even more cool.  And if the Cary blows up, it'll be just one less thing to dust and I'll be thanking you for the labor you've saved me.
> 
> You know, I'd never even considered the solder as a potential cause for the change in sound. On one hand, if it *is* the solder, it seems that the sound would just keep changing forever as the electrical contact constantly shifted around. I don't have much experience with the Melz, but the Fotons settled into a consistent sound after the lengthy break-in period. On the other hand, who the hell knows. Be interesting to measure one as it is, and then one where you've totally replaced the solder and see if there's any difference ---- before any break-in time ever enters the picture.



If there is a change, I will need to understand why it changed. Now on one of my tubes i will remove the old solder, clean the joints properly with rosin flux (most likely in a hypodermic like device), re-solder with some new Kester and see what happens with it. 

Even on new connectors, oftentimes you have to use extra flux to get solder to stick properly, and you are already using rosin core solder. Consider something 50 years old or more; heat and cold can bring about small chemical changes. You place a tube in a warm environment and there is rosin mixed with the ancient cracking solder. The solder does not melt but the rosin becomes a bit more liquid, and cleans the surface of the metal a bit and the solder makes better contact. Does it work all the time, over the same lengths of time, maybe, maybe not. If I hear a change or measure a change, it is easy enough to have a base line and perhaps figure out why.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> If there is a change, I will need to understand why it changed. Now on one of my tubes i will remove the old solder, clean the joints properly with rosin flux (most likely in a hypodermic like device), re-solder with some new Kester and see what happens with it.
> 
> Even on new connectors, oftentimes you have to use extra flux to get solder to stick properly, and you are already using rosin core solder. Consider something 50 years old or more; heat and cold can bring about small chemical changes. You place a tube in a warm environment and there is rosin mixed with the ancient cracking solder. The solder does not melt but the rosin becomes a bit more liquid, and cleans the surface of the metal a bit and the solder makes better contact. Does it work all the time, over the same lengths of time, maybe, maybe not. If I hear a change or measure a change, it is easy enough to have a base line and perhaps figure out why.



What I want to know is how you get the old solder out. Do you have a solder sucker?  The little spring loaded pens thingies don't work worth a crap on anything I've ever tried, so I use desoldering braid (and Chem-Wick is the only one I've used that works decently). But I doubt solder wick is going to properly get all the old stuff out without overheating things to the point of destruction.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> If there is a change, I will need to understand why it changed. Now on one of my tubes i will remove the old solder, clean the joints properly with rosin flux (most likely in a hypodermic like device), re-solder with some new Kester and see what happens with it.
> 
> Even on new connectors, oftentimes you have to use extra flux to get solder to stick properly, and you are already using rosin core solder. Consider something 50 years old or more; heat and cold can bring about small chemical changes. You place a tube in a warm environment and there is rosin mixed with the ancient cracking solder. The solder does not melt but the rosin becomes a bit more liquid, and cleans the surface of the metal a bit and the solder makes better contact. Does it work all the time, over the same lengths of time, maybe, maybe not. If I hear a change or measure a change, it is easy enough to have a base line and perhaps figure out why.



Is something like this worthwhile, or do you need to get on up in price for something decent?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 9, 2019)

bcowen said:


> What I want to know is how you get the old solder out. Do you have a solder sucker?  The little spring loaded pens thingies don't work worth a crap on anything I've ever tried, so I use desoldering braid (and Chem-Wick is the only one I've used that works decently). But I doubt solder wick is going to properly get all the old stuff out without overheating things to the point of destruction.



There are heavy duty solder suckers, that do a very good job. You also need to use a decent size solder tip at at least 800 degrees F, it will get the solder flowing quickly.

https://www.all-spec.com/Catalog/So...n_tqicjvVWXvRrLFuVhxWXMPBfMJUxMUaAjliEALw_wcB

This will do the job but it takes a bit of practice. It is also wise to add a bit of new solder to help cleanse and get the old solder flowing well. The apply some liquid flux, I use Kester, and then apply the new solder. It will flow easily due to capillary action.

I have not used that device, I have had Pace de-soldering stations but for $20 you cannot go wrong with the one I listed. My people have used them for many years and they always do the job, you can replace the tip if it starts getting damaged but that takes months of constant usage.

If you have several of the Foton tubes, and you get good at changing the solder, try it on one or two and then do your ten hour burn in. You may find they are pretty decent right off the bat once the solder is changed.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> There are heavy duty solder suckers, that do a very good job. You also need to use a decent size solder tip at at least 800 degrees F, it will get the solder flowing quickly.
> 
> https://www.all-spec.com/Catalog/So...n_tqicjvVWXvRrLFuVhxWXMPBfMJUxMUaAjliEALw_wcB
> 
> ...



Thanks!!  For $20 I'm ordering one now and will give it a try.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 9, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Thanks!!  For $20 I'm ordering one now and will give it a try.



I know of folks who use nothing else, at least 150 such folks have worked for me and that product has been around since at least the 70's, there are some cheap and smaller imitations.

Practice on some older junk tubes if you have them. If you do not I can send you a dozen or two. Before i touched a Melz, I practiced technique and I have soldered a lot through the years but there are always some things you can learn.  I cannot tell if you use a Hakko iron or such but the one I had Ripper and other friends buy, you can change the tip easily and have more heat on more surface area pretty easily. Once everything is in place and done well. those pins can be like they were back in 1954 or when ever lol.

I may go old school with some of my testing and use an Eico sweep generator a bit. Inside that generator are tubes, including a 6SN7 made by GE no less.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Practice on some older junk tubes if you have them.



I have some GE's.  Age is irrelevant -- they're junk.  



Paladin79 said:


> I cannot tell if you use a Hakko iron or such but the one I had Ripper and other friends buy, you can change the tip easily and have more heat on more surface area pretty easily. Once everything is in place and done well. those pins can be like they were back in 1954 or when ever lol.



I have a Weller WES51...old but still works great. Adjustable up to 850 degrees, plus I have an array of different tips including the broad, flat tip that works well on larger surfaces. 
Amazon even has the  Soldapullt (same model number), so free shipping to boot. Free shipping makes me happy.


----------



## Paladin79

That is the proper solder sucker. 

Keep maligning the GE’s, for now!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 9, 2019)

I'm sure Bill will find other 'unsanctioned' uses for it besides sucking solder.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm sure Bill will find other 'unsanctioned' uses for it beside sucking solder.



Yeah between that and the pvc pipe bombs I am sending him, the police will not know what to charge him with first.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Yeah between that and the pvc pipe bombs I am sending him, the police will not know what to charge him with first.



Probably killing Ripper.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 9, 2019)

Nooooo!!  Not a slow and agonizing death by Solder Sucker Hickies!!!


----------



## bcowen (Jul 9, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Nooooo!!  Not a slow and agonizing death by Solder Sucker Hickies!!!



That would take too long.  I'd get @TK16 to re-silkscreen some GE's with matching logos of all 3 of your good tubes and swap them out while you're at work.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> That would take too long.  I'd get @TK16 to re-silkscreen some GE's with matching logos of all 3 of your good tubes and swap them out while you're at work.


Not very "stealthy" mentioning that in public! I'll do it though, any chance I can screw that guy, I'm down.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Not very "stealthy" mentioning that in public! I'll do it though, any chance I can screw that guy, I'm down.



Maybe, but I bet he won't know the difference.  LOL!


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Maybe, but I bet he won't know the difference.  LOL!


Maybe not you mentioned low IQ in PM iirc?


----------



## Ripper2860

You guys know I can see your posts, right??


----------



## Paladin79

Something I am curious about that Ripper said, @bcowen do you use the Cary preamp to burn in 6SN7’s, or the Lyr 3, or another device?  I am just thinking of the heat differences.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You guys know I can see your posts, right??



Way to go @TK16 

Sheeez, you can't even remember PM's correctly -- it was _*no*_ IQ, not *low* IQ.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Way to go @TK16
> 
> Sheeez, you can't even remember PM's correctly -- it was _*no*_ IQ, not *low* IQ.


Sorry, threw a black spray painted mystery pair in, as it turned out, they were genuine GE tubes and my brain needed big time pain killers. Everything is a bit fuzzy.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Something I am curious about that Ripper said, @bcowen do you use the Cary preamp to burn in 6SN7’s, or the Lyr 3, or another device?  I am just thinking of the heat differences.



I've used it quite a bit for burning in lots of tubes -- 6SN7's and other tubes I have adapters for.  Interesting thing with it:  the heater current draw must be the same in both tubes or the channel with the _lower_ draw won't work. Seems backwards. A 6SN7 in one socket and a 6SL7 in the other...no dice. Music plays through the channel the 6SN7 is in, but no sound from the 6SL7 channel  Same thing with a 6SN7 in one and a 12AU7 in a 6.3v wired adapter in the other. Have no idea why that is and don't really even care, just learned to stick the same tube types in both sockets even though I'm not listening to it at all...just letting my vintage Zune push some music signal through the tubes.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Sorry, threw a black spray painted mystery pair in, as it turned out, they were genuine GE tubes and my brain needed big time pain killers. Everything is a bit fuzzy.



Oh, well all is forgiven then.  Just happy to know your brain still functions at all after something that traumatic.  Please be more careful next time....maybe a different shade of black on the GE's?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 10, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I've used it quite a bit for burning in lots of tubes -- 6SN7's and other tubes I have adapters for.  Interesting thing with it:  the heater current draw must be the same in both tubes or the channel with the _lower_ draw won't work. Seems backwards. A 6SN7 in one socket and a 6SL7 in the other...no dice. Music plays through the channel the 6SN7 is in, but no sound from the 6SL7 channel  Same thing with a 6SN7 in one and a 12AU7 in a 6.3v wired adapter in the other. Have no idea why that is and don't really even care, just learned to stick the same tube types in both sockets even though I'm not listening to it at all...just letting my vintage Zune push some music signal through the tubes.




It should arrive today and tomorrow night I should be able to check it out.  Because of how I constructed the pvc tubes for the 6sn7 challenge it may not be wise to let them run and run in an amp that gets very hot. In an extender in the Lyr 3 they should be fine. The majority are older tubes anyway that should not require much if any burn in.

I imagine the preamp runs a lot cooler than the Cary amp I have but it sure gets plenty warm but I am thinking more about the solder in the tube pins like we talked about yesterday. 100 hours in a pretty warm amp might just affect the solder and rosin in those old Russian tubes.

You can buy liquid rosin flux of course or I can send you some if you do not have it. I use a tiny straight pick to put a drop or two inside the cleaned pins or a plastic hypodermic device.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Mr Trev said:


> I can't read this without hearing Mr. T's voice…


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It should arrive today and tomorrow night I should be able to check it out.  Because of how I constructed the pvc tubes for the 6sn7 challenge it may not be wise to let them run and run in an amp that gets very hot. In an extender in the Lyr 3 they should be fine. The majority are older tubes anyway that should not require much if any burn in.
> 
> I imagine the preamp runs a lot cooler than the Cary amp I have but it sure gets plenty warm but I am thinking more about the solder in the tube pins like we talked about yesterday. 100 hours in a pretty warm amp might just affect the solder and rosin in those old Russian tubes.
> 
> You can buy liquid rosin flux of course or I can send you some if you do not have it. I use a tiny straight pick to put a drop or two inside the cleaned pins or a plastic hypodermic device.



I wouldn't worry at all about the heat with the Cary preamp. Tubes are totally out in the open, and the adjacent transformer gets warm but not hot (maybe 110 - 120 degrees, but never measured it) even during 24/7 operation.  The temperature of the PVC tubes (inside and out) will likely be very similar running between the Cary straight in and the Lyr 3 with a socket extender. 

I have both liquid and paste rosin flux....but thanks!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 10, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I wouldn't worry at all about the heat with the Cary preamp. Tubes are totally out in the open, and the adjacent transformer gets warm but not hot (maybe 110 - 120 degrees, but never measured it) even during 24/7 operation.  The temperature of the PVC tubes (inside and out) will likely be very similar running between the Cary straight in and the Lyr 3 with a socket extender.
> 
> I have both liquid and paste rosin flux....but thanks!



Ok I will be assembling the 6sn7 tubes this weekend and will ship them to you Monday of next week if all goes well. I have tested one for a very long time so hopefully they hold together inside the PVC, they should. Every thing I am using to seal them in place is non-conductive.  Ripper will have photos and I made all attempts to use pure examples of each type of tube. I made especially certain there is only one GE in the mix and that GE has the dots, and was not made by Ken-Rad etc. Somewhere I do have a Ken-Rad made by GE but that is another story.

You will most likely go through the tube challenge before you get the Cary pre-amp back anyway. I have some parts on order but they are at least a week out. With the proper load resistors and 32 ohm headphones I may be able to duplicate the Aeons, I will certainly try. If it starts to sound good with 50 ohm headphones I will know I am in the ball park.

I am currently dickering with a Russian on some Melz and Foton tubes but there seems to be a bit of a language barrier. Hard telling what I will end up with when the tubes finally show.


----------



## bcowen

I'll be doing the challenge listening through the Lyr 3 exclusively.  Gotta use what I'm most familiar with to get that free steak, so the timing on the Cary is of no consequence at all.  And not to nitpick or anything like @Ripper2860 would do, but the Aeons are 13 ohms.  Matching up with 32 ohm 'phones would likely be a leisurely stroll in the park for you....I figured 13 ohms would hand you at least a bit of a challenge.  LOL!

And you don't speak fluent Russian?  I'm so disappointed.  Of course, I have problems speaking fluent English but that's another story.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'll be doing the challenge listening through the Lyr 3 exclusively.  Gotta use what I'm most familiar with to get that free steak, so the timing on the Cary is of no consequence at all.  And not to nitpick or anything like @Ripper2860 would do, but the Aeons are 13 ohms.  Matching up with 32 ohm 'phones would likely be a leisurely stroll in the park for you....I figured 13 ohms would hand you at least a bit of a challenge.  LOL!
> 
> And you don't speak fluent Russian?  I'm so disappointed.  Of course, I have problems speaking fluent English but that's another story.



I know about the Aeons being 13 ohm, but unless you sent them along I need to listen with something lol. I am not sure there will be time to borrow Ripper's Beats headphones or whatever he is currently using so I need to go with what I have. When I am done a jumper setting will drop the impedance more and more but allow me to test at an acceptable level. I assume headphones are not as subject to damping factor depending on their construction. 

I can get by in some of the romantic languages but I am pretty weak in Russian.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am not sure there will be time to borrow Ripper's Beats headphones....



ROFL!!


----------



## Ripper2860

*Skull Candy.  How many times must I tell you all -- they are SKULL Candy!!  *


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> *Skull Candy.  How many times must I tell you all -- they are SKULL Candy!!  *



oops he must have upgraded. I considered buying some Aeons but I better not right now since I may be buying a steak dinner and a bottle of Ripple for Bill. I need to start convincing him that Salisbury invented steak.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> oops he must have upgraded.



Yes, I did.  I found the beats were a bit too bright for me.

Also -- Don't forget that the higher the Soy content, the better the steak!!


----------



## Paladin79

I will probably just go ahead and epoxy some GE tubes into the Cary pre-amp tomorrow night so I do not look like a sore loser later on when Bill wins the Ripple and Swanson tv dinner.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 10, 2019)

Dammmmmm.  If he wins, it should at least be a Night Hawk dinner.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I will probably just go ahead and epoxy some GE tubes into the Cary pre-amp tomorrow night so I do not look like a sore loser later on when Bill wins the Ripple and Swanson tv dinner.



Epoxy won't stick to GE tubes.  They're too slimy.


----------



## bcowen (Jul 10, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Dammmmmm.  If he wins, it should at least be a Night Hawk dinner.
> ]



Now THAT I could go for...even with Ripple.


----------



## Ripper2860

I pitched a nice soft one right over the plate -- a SWING and MISS!!!

(here's the correct answer)

 

Audioquest Nighthawks


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 10, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Dammmmmm.  If he wins, it should at least be a Night Hawk dinner.



 Wait that has sides with it, I should get a credit for those since they were not included in the original wager. I kind of wonder how the lettuce and tomato will hold up after he microwaves them? Now if I win this should be my steak:






And he said I got a large bottle of wine.






1945 was a good year for Romanee-Conti

I do have a serious question though, does anyone besides mrspeakers even make 13 ohm headphones?  It is not an impedance I have seen much before.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> 1945 was a good year for Romanee-Conti



I was hoping more like a nice Colt 45 ...


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I pitched a nice soft one right over the plate -- a SWING and MISS!!!
> 
> (here's the correct answer)
> 
> ...



Not that they would sound that great but I would love a pair of these just because of their looks, they would go with a certain amp of mine:

https://www.klipsch.com/products/hp...MI2rv3ufGq4wIVkbfACh3DoAy-EAQYBCABEgJQo_D_BwE

I modified a pair that are similar looking but they do not have the wooden cups.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 10, 2019)

Nope.  And I thought my Hifiman Ananda was low at 25 ohm.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I do have a serious question though, does anyone besides mrspeakers even make 13 ohm headphones?  It is not an impedance I have seen much before.



@Ripper2860 's reference 'phones are 16 ohm.  Pretty close.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I was hoping more like a nice Colt 45 ...



This is more my style of Colt 45.  Even has Lagoon Blue grips. 



[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 10, 2019)

I think you'd want a RED gun.  That gun goes more with Fish. So Uncouth.


----------



## Paladin79

In a current book I am reading, non-fiction, a police officer asks a criminal why he shot his friend 13 times. The answer, "that was all the bullets I had in the gun."

Ok the 25 ohm $12.99 headphones should be fine for my experiments. I will just hang on to Bills Cary pre-amp till I can make them sound just like his Aeons. This could take  a while Bill but I will see if I can send you some kind of tube burner-inner in the meantime.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 10, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> will just hang on to Bills Cary pre-amp till I can make them sound just like his Aeons.



A pair of GE tubes should do the trick.  Either that or stuffing the earcups with cotton wads.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> In a current book I am reading, non-fiction, a police officer asks a criminal why he shot his friend 13 times. The answer, "that was all the bullets I had in the gun."
> 
> Ok the 25 ohm $12.99 headphones should be fine for my experiments. I will just hang on to Bills Cary pre-amp till I can make them sound just like his Aeons. This could take  a while Bill but I will see if I can send you some kind of tube burner-inner in the meantime.



LOL!!!

No worry on the tube burner-inner. I have another CBI that can be used as a substitute.  It uses 6SL7's by default, but word from its creator is that it has plenty of headroom to handle the 6SN7's higher heater current. Probably sound like crap, but that would only be an issue if I was actually listening to it. 

Perhaps not quite as, um, attractive as what you've pictured, but looks are only important with women (excepting impedance matching cases in Lagoon Blue, of course).


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I think you'd want a RED gun.  That gun goes more with Fish. So Uncouth.



I come from the proletariat.  Gimme a break.  

(yeah, I only used that word 'cause I knew you'd have to look it up).


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> A pair of GE tubes should do the trick.  Either that or stuffing the earcups with cotton wads.



Tom distinctly referred to my Aeons, not your Beats.  Please read more carefully.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 10, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Tom distinctly referred to my Aeons, not your Beats.  Please read more carefully.



Re-read it.  He did.  And I did.  



bcowen said:


> I come from the proletariat. Gimme a break.



And you misspelled 'prostitute'.


----------



## Paladin79

We need Old Deaf Donkey to give us an update on some of his tube adventures. I keep watching for another Vali 2 in B stock. It would be nice to have a couple of them so I could A/B tubes.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 10, 2019)

I see what you did...  

You snuck in 'Tubes' and 'Vali 2' into a post on this thread.  Very nice.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I see what you did...
> 
> You snuck in 'Tubes' and 'Vali 2' into the thread.  Very nice.



I am probably most guilty about us drifting off topic and others deserve a chance to comment on things.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I see what you did...
> 
> You snuck in 'Tubes' and 'Vali 2' into a post on this thread.  Very nice.



I'm thinking there should be some kind of penalty for such an infraction.  

I know:  if I win, the Ripple is out.  An upgrade to Boone's Farm is required.

Or is that too harsh?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 10, 2019)

You may have crossed the line there, Bill.  The punishment should be commensurate with the crime.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'm thinking there should be some kind of penalty for such an infraction.
> 
> I know:  if I win, the Ripple is out.  An upgrade to Boone's Farm is required.
> 
> Or is that too harsh?



Sounds fine for me, if I win I will downgrade from the Jeroboam to the Magnum as a punishment.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> We need Old Deaf Donkey to give us an update on some of his tube adventures. I keep watching for another Vali 2 in B stock. It would be nice to have a couple of them so I could A/B tubes.


On holiday from everything on my tiny Mediterranean island. No tubes here. Just heat, humidity, rustic wine and good people. And lots of sleep.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> On holiday from everything on my tiny Mediterranean island. No tubes here. Just heat, humidity, rustic wine and good people. And lots of sleep.



Wow sounds nice! Congrats.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 10, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> On holiday from everything on my tiny Mediterranean island. No tubes here. Just heat, humidity, rustic wine and good people. And lots of *sheep*.



Sounded really good right up until the end...


----------



## Paladin79

Ok the Cary pre-amp looks right at home but for the life of me I cannot imagine @bcowen  owning GE tubes, let alone gifting some to me lol. If they end up in the amp then I may have to add some to the pre-amp, it only seems fitting and proper.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> oops he must have upgraded. I considered buying some Aeons but I better not right now since I may be buying a steak dinner and a bottle of Ripple for Bill. I need to start convincing him that Salisbury invented steak.


"Salisbury steak is a dish, originating in the United States, made from a blend of ground beef and other ingredients and usually served with gravy or brown sauce. Hamburg steak is a similar product but differs in ingredients." Wikipedia


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok the Cary pre-amp looks right at home but for the life of me I cannot imagine @bcowen  owning GE tubes, let alone gifting some to me lol. If they end up in the amp then I may have to add some to the pre-amp, it only seems fitting and proper.



Well, therein lies the joke. I'm guessing it took you around 1/4 of a millisecond to figure it out.  

But.....there's a possibility it may not be a joke. Slim, but possible.  Tiny even, but perhaps.    Those 5U4G's should be directly compatible with the SLA Mk 2.  When you mentioned you had only Sovtek rectifiers (or Electro Harmonix...can't remember, but the same thing anyway) for the SLA, I thought why not try those GE's in there. While the Electro Harmonix branded EL-34's sound pretty decent in the Super Amp, I've never been much of a fan of other Russian tubes of the '90's / 2000's era, and most of those came out under either a Sovtek or Electro Harmonix label.  So give those GE's a swap as rectifiers in the SLA and see what happens. Might be surprisingly good. Might not make any difference at all.  Kinda doubt it would be worse, even being a GE!  But I got started buying up NOS stuff long ago the first time I swapped out some Chinese-made rectifiers with NOS RCA's in the first SLA I had....made quite a difference.  A bit illogical that a tube that should just be converting AC to DC would have much impact on the sound, but it sure did with those RCA's (which were 5AR4's IIRC).  

However, I cannot imagine any improvement with any GE in the preamp, unless you're starting it out with with Sovteks or Electro Harmonix.  LOL!!


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> "Salisbury steak is a dish, originating in the United States, made from a blend of ground beef and other ingredients and usually served with gravy or brown sauce. Hamburg steak is a similar product but differs in ingredients." Wikipedia



Salisbury steak, like revenge, is a dish best served cold to someone you hate.  _Billopedia  _


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 10, 2019)

Have you tried burning-in the Salisbury Steak for 100 hours??


----------



## bigbenrfan99

I'm a new Vali 2 owner trying to get into the confusing world of tube rolling.  Any guesses as to whether this Telefunken ECC88 6DJ8 tube (which seems to normally go for around $75 used) is genuine Telefunken?  It doesn't have the Telefunken logo that I am seeing on other tubes.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-ECC88-6D...999829&hash=item469950c153:g:-K0AAOSwFaFdJlD3


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 10, 2019)

No logo is not huge deal (they can rub off), but the fact that the person listing does not show the bottom of the tubes and the TF embossed diamond <> on the bottom is suspect.  Perhaps you can ask for a pic of the bottom of the tube.  Gotta say -- I have not seen many (or any TF 6DJ8s with gold or copper pins, but I'll leave that to the other experts here.  Structurally it does look like a TF ECC88, however.


----------



## TK16

Looking for a 57 PCC88 Valvo Hamburg single, does anybody have 1 handy for sale? Thought I`d give it a shot, seems like a bunch of GE fanboys in here especially @bcowen


----------



## bcowen

bigbenrfan99 said:


> I'm a new Vali 2 owner trying to get into the confusing world of tube rolling.  Any guesses as to whether this Telefunken ECC88 6DJ8 tube (which seems to normally go for around $75 used) is genuine Telefunken?  It doesn't have the Telefunken logo that I am seeing on other tubes.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-ECC88-6D...999829&hash=item469950c153:g:-K0AAOSwFaFdJlD3



As Ripper noted, the fact they are purposely omitting a clear shot of the diamond on the bottom is suspect. If you save the 2 pictures and then zoom in on them, it's pretty clear there is no diamond. No diamond means it is not a true Telefunken. Just that simple. They also seem to have a little difficulty with math. If 62 is minimum on their tester and indicates 65% of a new tube, then a new tube would measure at 95, not 82.  So the tube is NOT new, and to have exactly matched triodes in a used vintage tube is even more suspect than the intentional lack of a photo of the diamond. My recommendation would be to not only pass on this tube, but pass on this seller.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Have you tried burning-in the Salisbury Steak for 100 hours??



Yes.


----------



## attmci

Can you guys use B65? Great price for eight of these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/173957519871


----------



## TK16 (Jul 10, 2019)

attmci said:


> Can you guys use B65? Great price for eight of these:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/173957519871


Suspect seller, bangbangtubes related.
Gotta give a shout out to that carpet though. Very lush.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> As Ripper noted, the fact they are purposely omitting a clear shot of the diamond on the bottom is suspect. If you save the 2 pictures and then zoom in on them, it's pretty clear there is no diamond. No diamond means it is not a true Telefunken. Just that simple. They also seem to have a little difficulty with math. If 62 is minimum on their tester and indicates 65% of a new tube, then a new tube would measure at 95, not 82.  So the tube is NOT new, and to have exactly matched triodes in a used vintage tube is even more suspect than the intentional lack of a photo of the diamond. My recommendation would be to not only pass on this tube, but pass on this seller.



This was a very well written and thoughtful response. Of course I just got out of one of my book clubs and we tend to hit the cafe for beer and wine so maybe it will look different for me tomorrow,  for tonight I am suitably impressed.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Looking for a 57 PCC88 Valvo Hamburg single, does anybody have 1 handy for sale? Thought I`d give it a shot, seems like a bunch of GE fanboys in here especially @bcowen



There was a Valvo doing 45 mph in the left lane on my way to work this morning.  Wish I'd been driving a bulldozer.  Oh, wait...maybe it was spelled Volvo.  Nevermind. 
_*Second*_ door on the right....we only like GE tubes here.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> There was a Valvo doing 45 mph in the left lane on my way to work this morning.  Wish I'd been driving a bulldozer.  Oh, wait...maybe it was spelled Volvo.  Nevermind.
> _*Second*_ door on the right....we only like GE tubes here.



You may or may not know the etymology but the word volvo used to mean "I tube roll", later the meaning was shortened to "I roll", but I could be wrong of course. 

It is nice to see @bcowen practicing a non-derogatory statement about GE, kinda, sorta. If all goes well by this time next week he will have tubes in hand and will render his expert opinion on the mystery tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You may or may not know the etymology but the word volvo used to mean "I tube roll", later the meaning was shortened to "I roll", but I could be wrong of course.



This morning it meant "I roll slowly."  Or more precisely "I don't have a friggin' clue how to drive an automobile."  Direct Swedish translations are difficult I guess.  



Paladin79 said:


> It is nice to see @bcowen practicing a non-derogatory statement about GE, kinda, sorta.



All the derogatory talk about GE tubes has resulted in the prices dropping to pennies on the dollar, so now that I've scooped up 5k of them on the cheap we need to start talking about how awesome they are.  The master plan is unfolding exactly as hoped for.  

The tubes that REALLY suck are 50's / 60's Telefunkens, Genalex, Philips and Volvos Valvos, any European-made tube with a pinched waist bottle shape, any pre-1960 Western Electric 300B, and especially (oh, SO especially) any tubes made in the Mitcham, Heerlen, Blackburn, or Hamburg factories regardless of date.  If you have any of those, get rid of 'em now before word gets out.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> This morning it meant "I roll slowly."  Or more precisely "I don't have a friggin' clue how to drive an automobile."  Direct Swedish translations are difficult I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now the real great GE 6sn7 is the one going to you, you may have some of them in your 5,000 tube stash but I will give you the particulars on it as we form a partnership to sell the appropriate year and model. 

(How hard can it be to add or erase a few extra white dots on the side of a tube? This could be a goldmine!)


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> This morning it meant "I roll slowly."  Or more precisely "I don't have a friggin' clue how to drive an automobile."  Direct Swedish translations are difficult I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What do you think about this listing? Amperex font kinda thin? No pictures of codes,  appear to be small halo o getter, not Heerlen 6922. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-QUAD-A...s-ECC88-CCA-NEW-4-Perfect-Valves/183877914824
Other than that, good to go?!??


----------



## bcowen (Jul 11, 2019)

TK16 said:


> What do you think about this listing? Amperex font kinda thin? No pictures of codes,  appear to be small halo o getter, not Heerlen 6922.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-QUAD-A...s-ECC88-CCA-NEW-4-Perfect-Valves/183877914824
> Other than that, good to go?!??



BangyBang is getting pretty sloppy with his re-screening.  Maybe he's finally figured out that anyone that knows_ anything_ about tubes isn't going to buy his fakes, and those that don't won't know the difference anyway?

His "USA Made" relabels look a bit more believable. Maybe he should use that same screen for the others:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GOLD-PIN-M...988751&hash=item46992f7407:g:gWMAAOSwX9BdI~G4


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 11, 2019)

I'm gonna hold out for the special BB 'calligraphy' version ...


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> BangyBang is getting pretty sloppy with his re-screening.  Maybe he's finally figured out that anyone that knows_ anything_ about tubes isn't going to buy his fakes, and those that don't won't know the difference anyway?
> 
> His "USA Made" relabels look a bit more believable. Maybe he should use that same screen for the others:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GOLD-PIN-M...988751&hash=item46992f7407:g:gWMAAOSwX9BdI~G4


Tall bottle would make them D getters, wonder what they really are. Not a code in plain site.


----------



## bcowen

You have the patience of a saint.  Me? I'm waiting for BangyBang to change his silkscreen to remove the copyright symbol (C) after the Amperex logo and put an R (Registered) symbol there like the real Amperex did. At least that way the casual observer won't immediately identify them as fakes.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> You have the patience of a saint.  Me? I'm waiting for BangyBang to change his silkscreen to remove the copyright symbol (C) after the Amperex logo and put an R (Registered) symbol there like the real Amperex did. At least that way the casual observer won't immediately identify them as fakes.


10, clearly states they codes were checked, guessing legit?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 11, 2019)

> WE ARE BACK . WE DO THE FESTER TESTER . THIS IS A TEN POINTS TEST ON EACH TUBE WE SELL






Yep.  This tube's good.  List it on eBay!!


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> 10, clearly states they codes were checked, guessing legit?



Well, at least the tube's (sic) are guaranteed to be 100% described. I'd hate to buy tubes that were only like 85% or 90% described.  Some value in that, I guess.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep.  This tube's good.  List it on eBay!!



*ROFL!!!!*

Is that a GE light bulb?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 11, 2019)

TK16 said:


> 10, clearly states they codes were checked, guessing legit?



9. Certified as 'strong' by Uncle Fester?: CHECK!
10. Codes checked  -- Verified as 100% removed? : CHECK!
11. Paint Dry? : CHECK!

LIST IT!!!  




bcowen said:


> *ROFL!!!!*
> 
> Is that a GE light bulb?



I can neither confirm nor deny, but it could be a Psvane SE.  .​


----------



## TK16

They seemed to list a legit pair by accident. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Pair-...rentrq:e3e0999516b0a9e476563877ff7fdc1d|iid:1


----------



## Ripper2860

I'll pass.  Not Fester Tested.


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll pass.  Not Fester Tested.


I`ll bite, tubes sound better saliva free.


----------



## Ripper2860

But the Fester Testing results in clean pins so the tube buyer achieves the best audio results by establishing the best possible connection in ones equipment.  Fester gargles with DeoxIT before and in-between every tube he tests.  100% guaranteed!!


----------



## TK16

These Russians make some seriously strong Gm ECC82 Mullards. 7,400 Gm. 5,200 above NOS 2,200.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-Mulla...6b0a68d5faab48bff84516a|iid:1&redirect=mobile


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> These Russians make some seriously strong Gm ECC82 Mullards. 7,400 Gm. 5,200 above NOS 2,200.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-Mullard-12AU7-ECC82-Matched-Pair-Vacuum-valve-Tubes-Brand-New/282957196391?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=c346b5c89ca44351b196a06963e8790f&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&sd=282957196391&itm=282957196391&pg=2481888&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:fe40b7e6-a44a-11e9-8d38-74dbd18063f5|parentrq:e3f7435716b0a68d5faab48bff84516a|iid:1&redirect=mobile



I'll send you the pictogram of where R27 (variable resistor) and R5 (pot) are in your 752.  Adjusting either of these make it easy as pie to get _every_ tube to test at 3x their actual GM.  Great for Ebay sales.


----------



## Robert Padgett

TK16 said:


> 10, clearly states they codes were checked, guessing legit?



I am guessing that eBay tubes are possible frauds and counterfeits, and one might look at reputable brick and mortar business like Upscale Audio, Vivatubes.com, and  Tubemongers.com if you want something that is actually a tube, as advertised. It appears that the "qualifications" to be an eBay tube vendor are similar to the intelligence testing required to get internet access-- non-existent. While the three transactions I have had on eBay resulted in only one bad experience, the more expensive and "rare" that they claim their product, the more likely it is a rebranded GE valve or worse (Is that possible?) it could be a counterfeit tube made to the lowest possible standards in a Chinese factory run by members of the People's Army.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> I am guessing that eBay tubes are possible frauds and counterfeits, and one might look at reputable brick and mortar business like Upscale Audio, Vivatubes.com, and  Tubemongers.com if you want something that is actually a tube, as advertised. It appears that the "qualifications" to be an eBay tube vendor are similar to the intelligence testing required to get internet access-- non-existent. While the three transactions I have had on eBay resulted in only one bad experience, the more expensive and "rare" that they claim their product, the more likely it is a rebranded GE valve or worse (Is that possible?) it could be a counterfeit tube made to the lowest possible standards in a Chinese factory run by members of the People's Army.



Robert, I agree.  And I'll add (of my own personal opinion) that buying tubes on Ebay without having a tube tester is at best risky, and at worst can be catastrophic.  There is no way of knowing if the tube(s) purchased perform at a level even close to what the seller is advertising, no way of knowing if the tube has been tested at all (regardless of what the listing might state), and no way of knowing if the tube may even have a dead short in it that could cause serious damage to some components.  Simple emission testers are dirt cheap (many people spend 2x - 3x as much on a single pair of tubes), and will at least provide enough info that the tube is safe to use and has output in a usable range.


----------



## TK16

Robert Padgett said:


> I am guessing that eBay tubes are possible frauds and counterfeits, and one might look at reputable brick and mortar business like Upscale Audio, Vivatubes.com, and  Tubemongers.com if you want something that is actually a tube, as advertised. It appears that the "qualifications" to be an eBay tube vendor are similar to the intelligence testing required to get internet access-- non-existent. While the three transactions I have had on eBay resulted in only one bad experience, the more expensive and "rare" that they claim their product, the more likely it is a rebranded GE valve or worse (Is that possible?) it could be a counterfeit tube made to the lowest possible standards in a Chinese factory run by members of the People's Army.


I`m adding Brent Jessee to the "bad" list. Recently paid top dollar for a pair of Brimar 12AU7 square getters. His test readings on the better testing tube was 2,200-2,300. On my Hickok 752 this tube tested 1,800-1,350 and noisy. Won`t buy from him again. 1,350 is the minimum testing. Paying those premium money tubes, I`d expect proper testing tubes every time. @bcowen had a bad experience with him as well. GE possibly.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> @bcowen had a bad experience with him as well. GE possibly.



Like I'd actually pay money for a GE.  LOL!!

It was a WH-D 6SN7 that struggled to hit minimum readings....


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Robert, I agree.  And I'll add (of my own personal opinion) that buying tubes on eBay without having a tube tester is at best risky, and at worst can be catastrophic.  There is no way of knowing if the tube(s) purchased perform at a level even close to what the seller is advertising, no way of knowing if the tube has been tested at all (regardless of what the listing might state), and no way of knowing if the tube may even have a dead short in it that could cause serious damage to some components.  Simple emission testers are dirt cheap (many people spend 2x - 3x as much on a single pair of tubes), and will at least provide enough info that the tube is safe to use and has output in a usable range.




I have been involved in tubes for less than a year, and it amazes me that a vendor would offer a tube which others sell for hundreds more. Beware, buyer, on eBay, if it looks too good to be true, Trust and Believe it is NOT. 
I don't have a tube tester, and I guess the 12 tubes I have bought was sheer luck. But, I also am no longer buying "Tests Good" tubes from eBay vendors. 
This is not to say that eBay folks are ALL bad, but without a tester, you are playing Russian Roulette buying a $12 "real" ECC88 Bugle Boy for a $400 amp...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Like I'd actually pay money for a GE.  LOL!!
> 
> It was a WH-D 6SN7 that struggled to hit minimum readings....


Hmmm I should give you the option to buy the top four tubes in the challenge without knowing brand, that could prove interesting.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> But, I also am no longer buying "Tests Good" tubes from eBay vendors.



"Tests Good" is just another way of saying "Doesn't Test Bad." 

The tube could be sitting right on its bare minimum value for "good," a needle width away from being "not good."  So how much life does a tube like that have left?  100 hours? Maybe 200. Maybe 500 or 1000.  Just no way of knowing. And after all that, there's no way of knowing if the tester the seller is using is working properly or is even remotely in calibration.  I've purchased probably 40 testers in the past couple years to refurbish and re-sell. Most have been advertised as "Works!!"  Some "Works Perfectly!"  _*None*_ have worked perfectly, and only a few have actually worked at all, at least as far as being reasonably calibrated and working well enough to give reliable readings. Point being is that some sellers might honestly believe they are selling a tube as advertised, but have no clue how to calibrate their tester (or are too lazy to do it) or that their tester is wildly out of calibration to begin with so the readings obtained are pretty much fake news.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hmmm I should give you the option to buy the top four tubes in the challenge without knowing brand, that could prove interesting.



Yeah, attractive too.  I'm sure the looks of the Lyr would be greatly enhanced with a PVC pipe sticking out of the top of it long term.  LOL!!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 12, 2019)

Very very soon, these will be in the hands of @bcowen.  Four digit numbers burned into each so that I will always know which tube is which, no matter how much Bill argues.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 12, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Yeah, attractive too.  I'm sure the looks of the Lyr would be greatly enhanced with a PVC pipe sticking out of the top of it long term.  LOL!!!



The tubes would be removable with absolutely no damage done, unless you cook them for 100 hours or some such lol. You might just up your image a bit, consider them ghetto chic and you will be fine.

Each will have a Greek warrior imprint on two sides. That which was intaglio is now cameo, you may not know what that means but it just reeks of class. There is a mystery within each pvc pipe, you are Theseus and each pvc tube is your labyrinth.

Does that not sound better than, this cost me $6.00 and a trip to Lowes? Use your imagination man! 

I am working on them as we speak, I should start sealing them up soon, photos have already been taken, but I have a few more to do just to make absolutely certain I am covered should you question the integrity of what I am doing here.


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> Very very soon, these will be in the hands of @bcowen.  Four digit numbers burned into each so that I will always know which tube is which, no matter how much Bill argues.


What is the dosage on the tubes? 4x day? See it is child proofed so I won`t be able to open the bottle myself.


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> What is the dosage on the tubes? 4x day? See it is child proofed so I won`t be able to open the bottle myself.



The bottles are indeed Bill proof.

The dosage is similar to prednisone. You should start out with 8 the first day, then 7, then 6. It is better to taper off gradually (redundancy).  When you get to the very last pvc tube you should have then picked your favorite or least favorite tube!!!  There is also a chance your poison ivy will be better or you will be banned from baseball.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 12, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> ... you are *Sisyphus* and each pvc tube is your B*oulder*.



Fixed it for you ...

-- or --

You are Schroeder and each PVC tube contains a Cat.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Fixed it for you ...
> 
> -- or --
> 
> You are Schroeder and each PVC tube contains a Cat.



I am about to wrap up this project, now I just hope everything holds together and nothing gets too hot lol. I let one run for several hours but I may not have that kind of time with all eight of the test tubes. Before long I will send over photos with little cards next to each tube and pvc holder. With that you will know which tube is where, just don't tell Bill any of the tubes other than the fact one of them is a GE.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am about to wrap up this project, now I just hope everything holds together and nothing gets too hot lol. I let one run for several hours but I may not have that kind of time with all eight of the test tubes. Before long I will send over photos with little cards next to each tube and pvc holder. With that you will know which tube is where, just don't tell Bill any of the tubes other than the fact one of them is a GE.



You'll have to spell GE for @Ripper2860 or he'll get it wrong.  Don't want the test invalidated....


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> See it is child proofed so I won`t be able to open the bottle myself.



Yeah, that worried me too. Went ahead and ordered some more cut-off discs for the Dremel to make it easier.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yeah, that worried me too. Went ahead and ordered some more cut-off discs for the Dremel to make it easier.


Good luck with that, these could be pretty permanent after all.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 12, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Yeah, that worried me too. Went ahead and ordered some more cut-off discs for my *Bob-The-Builder Dremel* to make it easier.



Fixed it for you ...


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> I've purchased probably 40 testers in the past couple years to refurbish and re-sell. Most have been advertised as "Works!!"  Some "Works Perfectly!"  _*None*_ have worked perfectly, and only a few have actually worked at all, at least as far as being reasonably calibrated and working well enough to give reliable readings. Point being is that some sellers might honestly believe they are selling a tube as advertised, but have no clue how to calibrate their tester (or are too lazy to do it) or that their tester is wildly out of calibration to begin with so the readings obtained are pretty much fake news.


It seems that I just lucky with the Superior instruments tester TV-12 that I got on an ebay auction for less than $150 including shipping. It was advertised as "used" and "looks good inside" and that the results were compared on same tubes with another tester. 

It seems to work for me. For now, I just wanted to know if there were no shorts or leaks in a tube so as to not fry the amp with a bad tube. Whilst I could have set up an Excel sheet to give me the mutual conductance I am happy with seeing the "Good Weak Replace" indication. I have not even used the noise testing function yet. Should I bother calibrating it, and is it even possible?


----------



## Paladin79

Today will be final day of testing so eight tubes will spend a few hours in the Vali 2. If anything does not work in this experiment it will not be through lack of effort so hopefully all goes well. @Ripper2860 will have the information so it is not feasible for him to try the challenge but others have contacted me and it will be fun to see how they do against mister Cowen.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> It seems that I just lucky with the Superior instruments tester TV-12 that I got on an ebay auction for less than $150 including shipping. It was advertised as "used" and "looks good inside" and that the results were compared on same tubes with another tester.
> 
> It seems to work for me. For now, I just wanted to know if there were no shorts or leaks in a tube so as to not fry the amp with a bad tube. Whilst I could have set up an Excel sheet to give me the mutual conductance I am happy with seeing the "Good Weak Replace" indication. I have not even used the noise testing function yet. Should I bother calibrating it, and is it even possible?



I did find an owners manual and while I just skimmed the info I did not see much about calibration listed. http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/superior/tv12/

from 1955 no less,


----------



## bcowen (Jul 13, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> It seems that I just lucky with the Superior instruments tester TV-12 that I got on an ebay auction for less than $150 including shipping. It was advertised as "used" and "looks good inside" and that the results were compared on same tubes with another tester.
> 
> It seems to work for me. For now, I just wanted to know if there were no shorts or leaks in a tube so as to not fry the amp with a bad tube. Whilst I could have set up an Excel sheet to give me the mutual conductance I am happy with seeing the "Good Weak Replace" indication. I have not even used the noise testing function yet. Should I bother calibrating it, and is it even possible?



Doesn't seem to be a lot of info readily available on these. Tom already linked the manual, which is all I can find as well (without an extensive search). If you got one that seems to work well right off the bat, you got lucky which is way cool.  Lacking any calibration info, I (personally) wouldn't even mess with trying to calibrate it -- without knowing what the test points and values are supposed to be you may end up with more inaccurate readings than when you started. That said, I would (again, personally) replace the capacitors in there. According to the schematic, there are only 2, both are probably electrolytics, and any electrolytic that is even older than Tom (  ) is unlikely to be anywhere close to its original value if it's not dead already. And if it's not dead already it very likely will be soon.  One is a 0.5 microfarad, the other a .01 microfarad, although the voltage ratings aren't listed so you'd have to look on the installed cap to see what the voltage rating is.  For those values you can easily substitute a film cap and not have to worry about polarity, and if you can't read the voltage rating on the installed cap just go with a 600+ volt film cap and you'll be fine. I have yet to see one of these testers use a cap rated at more than 600v, and 99.9% of them are 400v or below.






Also, besides BAMA (the Boat Anchor Manual Archive) that Tom linked, this is another excellent source for old manuals. You don't have to register and/or be a member...just type what you're looking for into the search tab.  Unfortunately, the only thing they have on the TV-12 is the same thing BAMA has, so no additional help in this particular case.

https://elektrotanya.com


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Fixed it for you ...



They have Bob The Builder stuff at Harbor Freight?  Who knew.  That's where I buy _all_ my quality tools.  ​


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> from 1955 no less,


That is  bit of a problem - tube types newer than that are not on the chart. It is said to be the same as Stark 9-99, and that one has an additional chart data of August 1967. That's my cutoff date.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ….mister Cowen.



Just as a point of clarification, that would be *M*ister Cowen.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Doesn't seem to be a lot of info readily available on these. Tom already linked the manual, which is all I can find as well (without an extensive search). If you got one that seems to work well right off the bat, you got lucky which is way cool.  Lacking any calibration info, I (personally) wouldn't even mess with trying to calibrate it -- without knowing what the test points and values are supposed to be you may end up with more inaccurate readings than when you started. That said, I would (again, personally) replace the capacitors in there. According to the schematic, there are only 2, both are probably electrolytics, and any electrolytic that is even older than Tom (  ) is unlikely to be anywhere close to its original value if it's not dead already. And if it's not dead already it very likely will be soon.  One is a 0.5 microfarad, the other a .01 microfarad, although the voltage ratings aren't listed so you'd have to look on the installed cap to see what the voltage rating is.  For those values you can easily substitute a film cap and not have to worry about polarity, and if you can't read the voltage rating on the installed cap just go with a 600+ volt film cap and you'll be fine. I have yet to see one of these testers use a cap rated at more than 600v, and 99.9% of them are 400v or below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you, Bill. I'd know where to look if it starts acting funny. Chinese language to me, I'll have to find someone capable of changing them.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Just as a point of clarification, that would be *M*ister Cowen.



Got it, Mister GE Cowen


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thank you, Bill. I'd know where to look if it starts acting funny. Chinese language to me, I'll have to find someone capable of changing them.



A lot depends on how easy they are to get to. If they're buried, it can be a pain. If out in the open, very simple. Basic soldering skills are all that's necessary. If that's something you've never done and have no desire to jump into, certainly someone you know there has and can do it for you. Or you can just continue to use the tester, and if at some point it starts acting weird you'll know those caps are the first place to start to restore proper operation.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Got it, Mister GE Cowen



*ROFL!!!!*

Did you get a chance to try those 5U4G's yet? Just might give you an additional laughing point.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> *ROFL!!!!*
> 
> Did you get a chance to try those 5U4G's yet? Just might give you an additional laughing point.



LOL, yes Mister GE,

I have them in the Cary now, maybe a slight difference in sound, they sound as good if not better. I have a few folks coming over a bit later for some final listening and I will ask around. If there is time I want a young woman with exceptional hearing to rate the 8 tubes and let me know what she thinks.

 I just noticed all the tubes I am using in my Cary amp were supplied by you lol. I am holding off putting GE in the Cary pre-amp though, I need to see how you behave if you win the challenge. 

I got a little sloppy sealing some of the PVC but I am closely inspecting all pins and cleaning them with Deoxit gold. A small cooling fan may not be an idea if you run some of these tubes more than an hour, just so the seals are not compromised.

I would try to talk you out of the AE 3 with an offer of a new Freya plus, but I will find one of my own one day, and you would regret trading it away I bet, some things should be handed down to the next generation. I have things lined up that my son will get, my wife would not be able to figure them out anyway.


----------



## attmci

Tung Sol badboy??

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-6...479&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> A lot depends on how easy they are to get to. If they're buried, it can be a pain. If out in the open, very simple. Basic soldering skills are all that's necessary. If that's something you've never done and have no desire to jump into, certainly someone you know there has and can do it for you. Or you can just continue to use the tester, and if at some point it starts acting weird you'll know those caps are the first place to start to restore proper operation.



If that tester made a journey from the DC area, my son could have changed the caps since he lives across the Potomac, pretty close by.  If you get in that situation again I can always touch base with him.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> If that tester made a journey from the DC area, my son could have changed the caps since he lives across the Potomac, pretty close by.  If you get in that situation again I can always touch base with him.


Many thanks, Tom. The tester made the trip to Brussels safe and sound some time ago.

I'll water it more often to make sure those caps do not dry out on me too soon.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Many thanks, Tom. The tester made the trip to Brussels safe and sound some time ago.
> 
> I'll water it more often to make sure those caps do not dry out on me too soon.



Good plan on the watering lol.   I knew you had already received it but if I can help in the future just say something. Although his technical abilities took him in another direction I started teaching him some electronics when he was four so he is fairly well grounded and he even helped with a business of mine at one point.

There are some good sounding tubes in what I am sending Bill, good thing I have his pre-amp I can hold hostage while he has them.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am holding off putting GE in the Cary pre-amp though, I need to see how you behave if you win the challenge.



If you put GE's in the pre-amp, it will likely result in an explosion big enough to make the 6:00 local news.  Maybe even the national news.   Invite a neighbor you don't like to come over and turn it on while you observe from a safe distance (which may be like Montana...or further).


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Many thanks, Tom. The tester made the trip to Brussels safe and sound some time ago.
> 
> I'll water it more often to make sure those caps do not dry out on me too soon.



Just be sure the water is fully broken-in before you apply it.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Just be sure the water is fully broken-in before you apply it.


Broken-in? That requires freezing... I normall burn it in for 200 hours


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> There are some good sounding tubes in what I am sending Bill, good thing I have his pre-amp I can hold hostage while he has them.



Oh good grief.  I already promised to return any I don't like.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Oh good grief.  I already promised to return any I don't like.



I should send you all GE's so you have to rush out Monday and have your hearing checked, maybe a Philips thrown in for variety.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I should send you all GE's so you have to rush out Monday and have your hearing checked, maybe a Philips thrown in for variety.



Tom!!  That is SO nice of you. But I just couldn't accept a gift of that value in good faith. But still a very generous offer.  OTOH, I only need one....


----------



## Paladin79

Those are tubes I doubt I would buy lol, while I like tube sound I do not like going over $100 a tube. I tend to be realistic about what I can and cannot hear and something like that would have to be a game changer for me.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 14, 2019)

The sound has been described as 'Glorious' and 'As if the Heavens had opened up'.  I've also heard the sound is attributed to their being hand-made at the Vatican by the Archbishop of Audiophilae.



I could be wrong, but who am I kidding, right?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I could be wrong, but who am I kidding, right?



_Could_?


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah, I know.  Not in this lifetime!!


----------



## KoshNaranek

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah, I know.  Not in this lifetime!!


Yes, I pray that in your next incarnation, you will be free from delusion.


----------



## Ripper2860

What's with all this negativity?


----------



## Paladin79

KoshNaranek said:


> Yes, I pray that in your next incarnation, you will be free from delusion.



In Ripper’s defense, this could well be his reincarnation happening now as well as Bill’s!  I suspect Bill used to be Thomas Edison because of his disdain for GE.

Ripper could well have been something Texas related like an armadillo.


----------



## Ripper2860

Thanks?


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Thanks?



Don't mention it. I have your back now that you no longer have all that exoskeleton, little armored one.


----------



## Robert Padgett (Jul 14, 2019)

So sweet sounding, silent running after reflowed solder


----------



## Paladin79

The tubes are all nestled snugly in foam rubber and on the way to @bcowen for his expert evaluation and ranking. I will remind him again to just use the single numbers on the tops of the tubes to list the tubes from his favorite to least favorite. The 6sn7 tube challenge is soon to begin!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 15, 2019)

The anticipation is almost more than I can stand!!


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> The tubes are all nestled snugly in foam rubber and on the way to @bcowen for his expert evaluation and ranking. I will remind him again to just use the single numbers on the tops of the tubes to list the tubes from his favorite to least favorite. The 6sn7 tube challenge is soon to begin!



9 tubes @100 hours burn-in, 38 days until the testing can begin. Which should make it easy, as the GE tube has never played 100 hours before failure--in the wild.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The tubes are all nestled snugly in foam rubber and on the way to @bcowen for his expert evaluation and ranking. I will remind him again to just use the single numbers on the tops of the tubes to list the tubes from his favorite to least favorite. The 6sn7 tube challenge is soon to begin!



But crap.  Forgot to tell you that the Lyr 3 just broke.  I have an ear infection. Someone stole my headphones.  There's locusts outside.  The dog ate my headphone cable. There's Venezuelan tanks in the streets and troops piling in at the North Carolina coast. The Russians just landed men on Mars.....even before fully breaking in the Fotons in the spacecraft.  

Probably not a good time for the test.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 15, 2019)

bcowen said:


> But crap.  Forgot to tell you that the Lyr 3 just broke.  I have an ear infection. Someone stole my headphones.  There's locusts outside.  The dog ate my headphone cable. There's Venezuelan tanks in the streets and troops piling in at the North Carolina coast. The Russians just landed men on Mars.....even before fully breaking in the Fotons in the spacecraft.
> 
> Probably not a good time for the test.



Ok my next shipment to you will include headphones, generator, amp, and plans for an underground bunker. You may want to just start digging a big hole in your back yard before your family gets back into town cause there is a steak dinner and huge bottle of wine riding on this lol.

Oh and I included a 9th tube as a back up in case anything happens with one of the other eight, number 9, number 9, number 9....


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok my next shipment to you will include headphones, generator, amp, and plans for an underground bunker. You may want to just start digging a big hole in your back yard before your family gets back into town cause there is a steak dinner and huge bottle of wine riding on this lol.
> 
> Oh and I included a 9th tube as a back up in case anything happens with one of the other eight, number 9, number 9, number 9....



I was thinking about just moving to Texas.  I heard the house next door to @Ripper2860 is for sale.


----------



## TK16

Robert Padgett said:


> 9 tubes @100 hours burn-in, 38 days until the testing can begin. Which should make it easy, as the GE tube has never played 100 hours before failure--in the wild.


GE tubes also have the highest probability of being NOS/NIB as there is only 1 member here that loves them.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I was thinking about just moving to Texas.  I heard the house next door to @Ripper2860 is for sale.


Good plan, and he has a Lyr you can borrow just in case you do not want to take a chance blowing up your own.


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> GE tubes also have the highest probability of being NOS/NIB as there is only 1 member here that loves them.



lol hey I scoured the earth looking for the perfect tube with exactly 100 hours of burn in on it just so it sounds a lot like some of the other tubes he subjects er tests, for that length of time. There are some highly thought of tubes in this mix so that should help Bill distinguish between what is considered good and not so good.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 15, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I was thinking about just moving to Texas.  I heard the house next door to @Ripper2860 is for sale.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> GE tubes also have the highest probability of being NOS/NIB as there is only 1 member here that loves them.



Yeah, and I heard he switched to a solid state amp he got from China for $29 a long time ago. Said it sounded sooooooo much better.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Good plan, and he has a Lyr you can borrow just in case you do not want to take a chance blowing up your own.



Good point.  Plus he's already blown his up once, so it already knows its way back to the Schiit factory.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Good point.  Plus he's already blown his up once, so it already knows its way back to the Schiit factory.


Oh you are right, if he sends it in again they are likely to put it into protective custody and not let it go back to him. Schiit Social Services would most likely step in.


----------



## Ripper2860

I did not 'blow-up' my amp.  It committed harakiri 3 minutes into a Spotify playlist that @bcowen sent me.


----------



## Robert Padgett

TK16 said:


> GE tubes also have the highest probability of being NOS/NIB as there is only 1 member here that loves them.



I for one, don't understand the animus about the General Electric Corporation. As I expounded earlier--they made tubes, they are a multinational multi-billion market cap company--I just don't buy the idea that they set out to make schiity tubes, for their schiity TVs and radios. 
Chinese make Junk, OK. Russians are drunks, OK. 

But do you really think Jack Welch signed off on the "We will make schiity tubes...." as a business plan? 
I have more confidence in America...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 15, 2019)

GE stock prices AFTER @bcowen 's announcement that GE tubes suck ...

The slight upward tick at the end of 2018  reflects a bulk purchase by Bangy-Bang tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> I for one, don't understand the animus about the General Electric Corporation. As I expounded earlier--they made tubes, they are a multinational multi-billion market cap company--I just don't buy the idea that they set out to make schiity tubes, for their schiity TVs and radios.
> Chinese make Junk, OK. Russians are drunks, OK.
> 
> But do you really think Jack Welch signed off on the "We will make schiity tubes...." as a business plan?
> I have more confidence in America...



Jack Welch never had any role in tube production, and had no role at a high enough level to even influence it (if he ever had any involvement at all) until at least the mid-60's.  In the early 70's he took over the metallurgical division which would probably coincide with the time they quit making tubes because he was smart enough to schiitcan the whole operation after realizing their tubes sucked.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> GE stock prices AFTER @bcowen 's announcement that GE tubes suck ...
> 
> The slight upward tick at the end of 2018  reflects a bulk purchase by Bangy-Bang tubes.




*ROFL!!!!*


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I did not 'blow-up' my amp.  It committed harakiri 3 minutes into a Spotify playlist that @bcowen sent me.




Um, IIRC it was 'cause you put the tubes in backwards.  And my memory is infallible, IIRC.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Jack Welch never had any role in tube production, and had no role at a high enough level to even influence it (if he ever had any involvement at all) until at least the mid-'60s.  In the early 70's he took over the metallurgical division which would probably coincide with the time they quit making tubes because he was smart enough to schiitcan the whole operation after realizing their tubes sucked.




Bill, I truly understand your visceral hatred of GE, it is palpable. I do hope that you will enjoy a double cut filet mignon at the Beef and Bottle with fine red wine and all the trimmings. 

I am just not sure you are being fair to Sovtek, afterall, when GE quit making tubes, they tried to fill in the void in "Mediocre/Really Suck' category...


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> GE stock prices AFTER @bcowen 's announcement that GE tubes suck ...
> 
> The slight upward tick at the end of 2018  reflects a bulk purchase by Bangy-Bang tubes.



I sold my GE stock in 2017 just before that death spiral took place. I would have thought getting out of appliances would have helped but it did not seem to.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> Bill, I truly understand your visceral hatred of GE, it is palpable. I do hope that you will enjoy a double cut filet mignon at the Beef and Bottle with fine red wine and all the trimmings.
> 
> I am just not sure you are being fair to Sovtek, afterall, when GE quit making tubes, they tried to fill in the void in "Mediocre/Really Suck' category...



Robert, LOL!  I won't argue with you on the Sovteks.  I do not like their signal tubes (9-pinners, small octals), although some of their power octals are not all that bad like EL-34's and KT-88's.  Certainly better than their Chinese-made counterparts -- at least they don't go nuclear.  And don't forget Philips ECG's.  I hate them too.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Robert, LOL!  I won't argue with you on the Sovteks.  I do not like their signal tubes (9-pinners, small octals), although some of their power octals are not all that bad like EL-34's and KT-88's.  Certainly better than their Chinese-made counterparts -- at least they don't go nuclear.  And don't forget Philips ECG's.  I hate them too.



If you really want to experience deeply rooted hatred... let me send you a matched pair of rusty Ken-Rad 6J5GT which have telescopic microphonics. 
They will ring like a bell if you touch a table on which any electronics related to the dual 6J5-6922 adapter with them inserted is seated. 
If you listen carefully you can actually hear the filaments crying out in anguish...


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> If you really want to experience deeply rooted hatred... let me send you a matched pair of rusty Ken-Rad 6J5GT which have telescopic microphonics.
> They will ring like a bell if you touch a table on which any electronics related to the dual 6J5-6922 adapter with them inserted is seated.
> If you listen carefully you can actually hear the filaments crying out in anguish...



Did you try re-flowing the solder on those?  Seriously.  Might fix it. Might not, but it sounds (ha!) like you have nothing to lose by trying...


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 15, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Robert, LOL!  I won't argue with you on the Sovteks.  I do not like their signal tubes (9-pinners, small octals), although some of their power octals are not all that bad like EL-34's and KT-88's.  Certainly better than their Chinese-made counterparts -- at least they don't go nuclear.  And don't forget Philips ECG's.  I hate them too.



@bcowen , speaking of power tubes... I may have already asked this but do you have any 6AS7G's, 6080's, 5998's in your tube collection?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jul 15, 2019)

Robert Padgett said:


> I for one, don't understand the animus about the General Electric Corporation. As I expounded earlier--they made tubes, they are a multinational multi-billion market cap company--I just don't buy the idea that they set out to make schiity tubes, for their schiity TVs and radios.
> Chinese make Junk, OK. Russians are drunks, OK.
> 
> But do you really think Jack Welch signed off on the "We will make schiity tubes...." as a business plan?
> I have more confidence in America...


Chinese can make products of exceptional quality. I have first hand experience, and, long story short, when one orders junk for bottom price one gets the junk as ordered. I have seen inside factories and companies manufacturing first rate impeccable quality stuff for very reasonable prices - one third of the European average for the same quality. Russians (Soviets) could design superb products and technologies, and make small parties (samples and early production) of excellent stuff. Mass production suffered from lack of organisation, abysmal quality control, absence of qualified labour at scale, and pressures to reduce costs no matter what. I cannot comment on America. Economy and culture aside, please keep it in mind that the design of your beloved MELZ 6H8C tube with large holes in the plate is born of the need for efficient cooling, and longevity in automation applications, as the tube was not meant for audio. Something in GE technologies may have caused them producing sonic signatures that some people do not like. I, for one, still have to find (but not looking) a Siemens tube which I like, despite their excellent technical qualities.


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> GE stock prices AFTER @bcowen 's announcement that GE tubes suck ...
> 
> The slight upward tick at the end of 2018  reflects a bulk purchase by Bangy-Bang tubes.


We all know the person responsible for the slight increase at the end of the graph is.


----------



## Ripper2860

Well ...  I didn't want to call you out, but ...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Well ...  I didn't want to call you out, but ...



The big question is whether he has finished painting them all black yet...


----------



## TK16

1


Ripper2860 said:


> Well ...  I didn't want to call you out, but ...


Correct was me buying but they were GEC AKA General Electric Company of England purchases.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 15, 2019)

And the founding members of GEC ...







And yes, that's who you think it is.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Did you try re-flowing the solder on those?  Seriously.  Might fix it. Might not, but it sounds (ha!) like you have nothing to lose by trying...



Absolutely nothing to lose. I already had nominated for a 'gravity/impact' study, but if I could save another Russian Veteran with reflowing I guess anything is possible. 
Didn't you say Ken-rad was bought be GE?


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> And the founding members of GEC ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Marsha Simmons from third grade at Jefferson Elementary, or Jimi Hendrix? Whiuch one?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 15, 2019)

Ken-Rad was bought by GE but operated as a separate entity, unmolested by GE for several years before being assimilated and taking on the GE label resulting in a nose-dive into oblivion.



Robert Padgett said:


> Marsha Simmons from third grade at Jefferson Elementary, or Jimi Hendrix? Whiuch one?



YES!!!  That's Marsha!!!!


-- and --


Morgan Freeman (aka Jimi Hendrix)...


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Chinese can make products of exceptional quality. I have the first-hand experience, and, long story short, when one orders junk for bottom price one gets the junk as ordered. I have seen inside factories and companies manufacturing first-rate impeccable quality stuff for very reasonable prices - one-third of the European average for the same quality. Russians (Soviets) could design superb products and technologies, and make small parties (samples and early production) of excellent stuff. Mass production suffered from lack of organization, abysmal quality control, absence of qualified labor at scale, and pressures to reduce costs no matter what. I cannot comment on America. Economy and culture aside, please keep it in mind that the design of your beloved MELZ 6H8C tube with large holes in the plate is born of the need for efficient cooling, and longevity in automation applications, as the tube was not meant for audio. Something in GE technologies may have caused them producing sonic signatures that some people do not like. I, for one, still have to find (but not looking) a Siemens tube which I like, despite their excellent technical qualities.



I know that the MELZ may have been made for a bank in a digital computer, but it really sings in a Vali 2. The FOTONs are exceptional also from 1951. I love me some Russian Tubes (6N6P) in my VH2, and there is a sonic difference with JJ ECC99, not a direct substitute. 

I am really looking forward to resigning my Commission in the Tube Rolling Directorate upon the arrival of the BRIMAR CV4033 - [MINT NOS 1960-62 Military Black Plate Prem. Grade Long Life ECC81/CV4024/12AT7 Halo Getter], 1578 in Vali 2, and a box full of replacements...I am good.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Ken-Rad was bought by GE but operated as a separate entity, unmolested by GE for several years before being assimilated and taking on the GE label resulting in a nose-dive into oblivion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I want to say that is Rita Moreno bottom left.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 15, 2019)

I believe you are correct.

For the record, I have no idea who Marsha Simmons is.  I just acted like I did to appease Mr. Padgett.  

Is that Bill Gates on the back-right?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I believe you are correct.
> 
> For the record, I have no idea who Marsha Simmons is.  I just acted like I did to appease Mr. Padgett.
> 
> Is that Bill Gates on the back-right?



I'm pretty sure this is @Ripper2860 from 64 birthdays ago:


----------



## Ripper2860

You laugh, but I'm still getting royalty checks.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> I believe you are correct.
> 
> For the record, I have no idea who Marsha Simmons is.  I just acted like I did to appease Mr. Padgett.
> 
> Is that Bill Gates on the back-right?


Likewise, I knew a Rita Simmons, and Marcia Hobbs but I didn't know Martha Simone..


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> I believe you are correct.
> 
> For the record, I have no idea who Marsha Simmons is.  I just acted like I did to appease Mr. Padgett.
> 
> Is that Bill Gates on the back-right?



No that is Earle McNew, he dated Millicent Smithers when they were in 6th grade, and she didn't come back for seventh grade....


----------



## Paladin79

Things are quiet today but they should pick up after tomorrow when @bcowen begins his tube comparisons after his careful inspection of the articles I sent. I would say testing might start on Saturday.


----------



## Ripper2860

Depending on how it goes, we may never hear from @bcowen again at HF.  At least not under his current moniker.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 16, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Depending on how it goes, we may never hear from @bcowen again at HF.  At least not under his current moniker.



If he loses I may have to start calling all new folks Mr.GE just in case he is hiding out under his new alias.
 We may have to create a new acronym if he loses. Like when someone trashes a type of tube you love, or someone loves a tube type you really hate, we could use JLBCWHD. Meaning just like Bill Cowen would have done.

When you offer up your tube impressions, it could be known as Cowening.


----------



## TK16

@bcowen do you want to split this quad? You can have 4 and I'll take the rest?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1956-Q...-G-E-Black-Plate-3-Mica-D-Getter/183825119317
Look at that carpet.


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> @bcowen do you want to split this quad? You can have 4 and I'll take the rest?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1956-Q...-G-E-Black-Plate-3-Mica-D-Getter/183825119317
> Look at that carpet.



Maybe I am missing something here but how does one split a quad by one person getting four tubes?

Come to think of it I would be happy to split a quad with Bill if he pays half and I get four tubes.


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> Maybe I am missing something here but how does one split a quad by one person getting four tubes?
> 
> Come to think of it I would be happy to split a quad with Bill if he pays half and I get four tubes.


I don't want any GE tubes whatsoever. I'd pay cash money to not have them in my possession.


----------



## Paladin79

oh lol, sorry it has been a hectic day and I missed that. Your opinion may well be reinforced soon if Bill puts the GE in last place.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Depending on how it goes, we may never hear from @bcowen again at HF.  At least not under his current moniker.



I already changed my moniker to GE_Lover.  Should take effect on my next post.   


addendum:  GE does NOT stand for General Electric, although people may choose to infer that if they wish.  It stands for Globally Esteemed.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I already changed my moniker to GE_Lover.  Should take effect on my next post.
> 
> 
> addendum:  GE does NOT stand for General Electric, although people may choose to infer that if they wish.  It stands for Globally Esteemed.


It sounds like someone might be preparing for the worst.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> @bcowen do you want to split this quad? You can have 4 and I'll take the rest?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1956-Q...-G-E-Black-Plate-3-Mica-D-Getter/183825119317
> Look at that carpet.



Deal!!  GE's are the absolute best for the defensive tube cannon.  If by chance you miss hitting the pilferer with the tube, there's at least the lasting insult you were shooting at them with GE tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It sounds like someone might be preparing for the worst.



Just creating an "out" in case @Ripper2860 has been wrong all along.  A hedge fund for tubes, if you will.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Just creating an "out" in case @Ripper2860 has been wrong all along.  A hedge fund for tubes, if you will.


I would stay and chat but I am taking the wife out to dinner. I considered steak but I best have fish or chicken so I do not overdo it this month. There may be a steak in the offing.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I would stay and chat but I am taking the wife out to dinner. I considered steak but I best have fish or chicken so I do not overdo it this month. There may be a steak in the offing.



No _may_ to it...steak is coming  The only question remaining is who's buying. LOL!!


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> I already changed my moniker to GE_Lover.  Should take effect on my next post.
> 
> 
> addendum:  GE does NOT stand for General Electric, although people may choose to infer that if they wish.  It stands for Globally Esteemed.



My mistake.  I thought the GE stood for Gross Exaggeration.


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> My mistake.  I thought the GE stood for Gross Exaggeration.


Thought it stood for Gross Excrement?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 16, 2019)

ok I am back from my non-steak dinner out. I may not eat steak until it is a Cowenesque steak.

Please be kind to the GE tubes, Bill might be choosing one as a favorite before very long and I would hate to see the little guy chagrined, well maybe a little, but only for a day or two.

If he wins this I may have to withdraw some money from my 401k and do a 300B challenge. 

How hard could that be? They make different sizes of PVC and I now know exactly how to build the structures.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ok I am back from my non-steak dinner out. I may not eat steak until it is a Cowenesque steak.
> 
> Please be kind to the GE tubes, Bill might be choosing one as a favorite before very long and I would hate to see the little guy chagrined, well maybe a little, but only for a day or two.
> 
> ...



The first time you put a genuine NOS Western Electric 300B in a PVC tube I'm calling the Tube Seller's Association (@TK16 is on the board of directors) and askin' them to dispatch a SWAT team to your house pronto.


----------



## Paladin79

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3C22-Triod...843678?hash=item1a2fc8e11e:g:YbMAAOSw6DtYTNsL

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VT-51-rohr...659656?hash=item3b0f0e3488:g:euoAAOSwjZJZ7LxS

GE, Western Electric, practically the same thing, only different lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/3C22-Triod...843678?hash=item1a2fc8e11e:g:YbMAAOSw6DtYTNsL
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VT-51-rohr...659656?hash=item3b0f0e3488:g:euoAAOSwjZJZ7LxS
> 
> GE, Western Electric, practically the same thing, only different lol.



LOL!  The 50's sound best. Well, I've never heard any 40's, so they may be even better...and priced about the same as a new Camry or Accord...loaded.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-WESTE...558796?hash=item3fc73c520c:g:a~QAAOSwsIFcea8V

Now if you want me to do a PVC tube test between a genuine '52 and a genuine '59, I'll just go ahead and buy you the next steak dinner without going to all that effort.  I'll admit defeat before we even start.  

OTOH, if you want to do it between the real thing and one of these attempted copycat pieces of utter rip-off crap, then we'll have to raise the steaks stakes....like the loser has to buy the genuine tube.  And since these are single triodes, it'll have to be 2 tubes.  LOL!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Pair-R...=192670567094baadda7501164cac94d5a591d74e8d59


----------



## Robert Padgett

Those are some pretty nice looking replicas...can you use them as light bulbs?


----------



## Robert Padgett

www.ebay.com/itm/10Pcs-Valve-Vacuum-Tubes-Dampers-Silicone-O-Ring-Fit-300B-300B-T-Tube-Amplifier/252440160155

Safe Tube Rolling?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 17, 2019)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  The 50's sound best. Well, I've never heard any 40's, so they may be even better...and priced about the same as a new Camry or Accord...loaded.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-WESTE...558796?hash=item3fc73c520c:g:a~QAAOSwsIFcea8V
> 
> ...



Seriously I doubt I would mess with such a challenge, I have a 300B amp I am going to build but that is down the road and I have no other reason to mess with quality 300B's at this time. If I go buying tubes worth thousands of dollars my wife is liable to go Imelda Marcos on me and start buying shoes by the boxcar load.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> Those are some pretty nice looking replicas...can you use them as light bulbs?



No.  I only use GE light bulbs.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ....my wife is liable to go Imelda Marcos on me and start buying shoes by the boxcar load.



LOL!  I have a couple boxcars worth in the closet now....can I send them to her?  My wife probably wouldn't even notice they were missing 'cause there's 3 more boxcars worth in the other closet. 

It's a no-win situation.  Whenever I ask her how many pairs of shoes she can possibly ever use, her instantaneous retort is how many tubes can I possibly ever use.  Logic is not her strong suit by any stretch of the imagination, but she has me by the nuts on this one.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I have a couple boxcars worth in the closet now....can I send them to her?  My wife probably wouldn't even notice they were missing 'cause there's 3 more boxcars worth in the other closet.
> 
> It's a no-win situation.  Whenever I ask her how many pairs of shoes she can possibly ever use, her instantaneous retort is how many tubes can I possibly ever use.  Logic is not her strong suit by any stretch of the imagination, but she has me by the nuts on this one.



The 6sn7's are out for delivery so it is nearly time for you to don your lucky tube testing hat . I should be receiving a package from your neck of the woods today but what I will get has no chance of pressure or public humiliation attached, as far as I know that is.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The 6sn7's are out for delivery so it is nearly time for you to don your lucky tube testing hat . I should be receiving a package from your neck of the woods today but what I will get has no chance of pressure or public humiliation attached, as far as I know that is.



ROFL!!   I think (hope?) there's less chance of what's arriving in my box blowing up than yours.


----------



## bcowen (Jul 17, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> The 6sn7's are out for delivery so it is nearly time for you to don your lucky tube testing hat . I should be receiving a package from your neck of the woods today but what I will get has no chance of pressure or public humiliation attached, as far as I know that is.



On a more serious note, I will get all of the PVC apparatuses through the tester prior to the weekend, but actual listening tests will not begin until then. I am planning on using a timer to assure consistency:  1 hour of warmup, listen as long as necessary (ear bleed with the GE's will likely occur quickly), then turn the amp off and let the tube/pipe cool for 15 minutes before removal and insertion of the next. Not sure how 'heat malleable' the wax is, and want to be sure it cools enough to remain undisturbed during removal.  No bogus claims that I tried to dig into it to see what the tube was.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> On a more serious note, I will get all of the PVC apparatuses through the tester prior to the weekend, but actual listening tests will not begin until then. I am planning on using a timer to assure consistency:  1 hour of warmup, listen as long as necessary (ear bleed with the GE's will likely occur quickly), then turn the amp off and let the tube/pipe cool for 15 minutes before removal and insertion of the next. Not sure how 'heat malleable' the wax is, and want to be sure it cools enough to remain undisturbed during removal.  No bogus claims that I tried to dig into it to see what the tube was.


I tried each for well over an hour in the Vali and a couple early ones for five or six hours. If anything bad happens it will be as you remove the warm tubes so letting them cool is a good idea. The sealing wax is on top of other materials so it should be insulated but your setup may vary from mine.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The 6sn7's are out for delivery so it is nearly time for you to don your lucky tube testing hat . I should be receiving a package from your neck of the woods today but what I will get has no chance of pressure or public humiliation attached, as far as I know that is.



I even made up a brand new socket saver/extension just for this.  The really nice ceramic/gold plated octal socket I referenced earlier directly wired to the pins with 20 gauge Neotech PCOCC copper wire and (of course) Cardas solder.  No tiny little 28 gauge 100/feet per dollar junk wire soldered to a cheap circuit board like in the standard fare from China.  This is about as close to a direct wire connection I can get with an extender/saver in place.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I tried each for well over an hour in the Vali and a couple early ones for five or six hours. If anything bad happens it will be as you remove the warm tubes so letting them cool is a good idea. The sealing wax is on top of other materials so it should be insulated but your setup may vary from mine.



Is 15 minutes cooling time sufficient?  Or should I allow longer?  The Lyr gets pretty warm down there even with an extension in place.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 17, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Is 15 minutes cooling time sufficient?  Or should I allow longer?  The Lyr gets pretty warm down there even with an extension in place.



15 minutes should be plenty. There will be a small amount of flex in the bottom plug but you will be able to tell if things get too loose. Worst case you may want to use a small screwdriver to pry the tube plug from socket.  I had nothing bad happen even as I removed them while warm but it does not hurt to insure their integrity, this setup may be going through several hands and not everyone will have your expertise or rigid adherence to their test principles. If those stay under 105 degrees F you should be fine. Highest temps I had coming out of the top vents was about 85 degrees as I recall. The extension socket I used on the bottom acts as a heat buffer.

I believe I told you I used 22 awg silver plated occ copper in all extension sockets, I do not have Cardas solder but I used a high quality Kester that has some silver content, I stay away from ROHS compliant for such things because it requires more heat as I recall and can be trickier to work with.

Depending on how warm the Lyr gets, a small whisper fan like used in computer cases may not be a bad idea, unless there is a chance you can hear it through what ever full volume blue grass-punk-disco music you have blasting away during your testing.

I only subjected the tubes to a bit of the dulcet tones of Allison Krauss softly singing gospel music a capella,  so please tread lightly at first.

I just received Bill's Fed Ex package and he received mine from UPS, at dang near the same time lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I only subjected the tubes to a bit of the dulcet tones of Allison Krauss softly singing gospel music a capella,  so please tread lightly at first.



I'm surprised the tubes didn't kick and fight their way out of the PVC tubes to go run and hide somewhere.  Hopefully you weren't actually listening, just testing? 



Paladin79 said:


> I just received Bill's Fed Ex package and he received mine from UPS, at dang near the same time lol.



The pipe bombs, errr...tubes, errr...thingies in PVC armor arrived intact and in perfect shape. Beautiful packaging, I might add. Only one issue so far. The top has clearly printed on it "Push down and turn to open."  I tried and tried and I can't get any of them to open.  So not only are these childproof, they're Bill-proof (which is possibly just a different way of saying the same thing). 

And so it begins.....


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> I'm surprised the tubes didn't kick and fight their way out of the PVC tubes to go run and hide somewhere.  Hopefully you weren't actually listening, just testing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Betting the GE will be your absolute favorites.


----------



## Ripper2860

The beginning of the end for our illustrious friend, Bill.  Sad ...


almost.


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> Betting the GE will be your absolute favorites.



I am modeling this exercise after a game I played against a computer at the University of Louisville, many many years ago. It was the early days of computing and the game was called You Lose.
A simple game, the computer asked you to pick a number between one and ten, and no matter what number you chose, the answer would be, You Lose! Take off your clothes!

I use that game in management (without the take off your clothes part) if I ask an employee to do something and they hesitate or balk or make excuses. No matter what number they choose, I say you lose. One young lady told me the game was rigged so I asked another employee to pick a number between one and ten, and she said 1,567, to which I said You Win!!!  See, the game is not rigged.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 17, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I'm surprised the tubes didn't kick and fight their way out of the PVC tubes to go run and hide somewhere.  Hopefully you weren't actually listening, just testing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There was some serious work that went into this exercise and even if you got a top loose, you would not learn a lot by looking inside. Oh yea along with Allison Krauss I may have listened to some Gregorian chants with those tubes but that is about it. It was nothing like some of the techno-grunge-yodeling that the tubes are about to be subjected to under the auspices of Bill Mr.GE Cowen.

Oh and thanks for including the tube with the phono pre-amp Bill, I hope to mess around with it this Friday. My new LCR meter just arrived and the ESR meter should be close behind.


----------



## Ripper2860

Well, if it's any consolation, Bill -- the next Indiana lottery winning numbers are encoded in the PVC tube numbering scheme.  Good luck.


----------



## TK16

Tube 968 is the GE, my eardrums started to bleed a little just looking at it.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, if it's any consolation, Bill -- the next Indiana lottery winning numbers are encoded in the PVC tube numbering scheme.  Good luck.



Those numbers all mean something. Bill will have to have a knowledge of Boolean algebra and the Bass diffusion model but with luck, he should be able to crack the code about the time the very last person has had a chance to hear the tubes and most of us will have moved on to a better place. For some of you that place could be Toledo Ohio but I spent a week there one afternoon and I am hoping for something else.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 17, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Those numbers all mean something.



Once deciphered, they will lead one to the location of Eldorado, the mythical Mayan City of Gold??


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> Tube 968 is the GE, my eardrums started to bleed a little just looking at it.



That full number is 4968 and you must be clairvoyant. Well sometimes you must be, I should not express anything one way or the other in regards to that tube so as not to influence Bill.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Once deciphered, they will lead one to the location of Eldorado, the mythical Mayan City of Gold??



Something like that, if Bill figures out the code and puts the GE in last place I may have to retire the tubes and bow to his greatness. I should also contact the Smithsonian cause that code is not easy to break and Bill would be on a level with Alan Turing.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Those numbers all mean something. Bill will have to have a knowledge of Boolean algebra and the Bass diffusion model but with luck, he should be able to crack the code about the time the very last person has had a chance to hear the tubes and most of us will have moved on to a better place. For some of you that place could be Toledo Ohio but I spent a week there one afternoon and I am hoping for something else.



You mean there's a meaningful meaning behind those numbers?  I thought if you just added them all up and then divided by 1,000 it was @Ripper2860 's IQ.  Dang.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Betting the GE will be your absolute favorites.





Paladin79 said:


> I am modeling this exercise after a game I played against a computer at the University of Louisville, many many years ago. It was the early days of computing and the game was called You Lose.
> A simple game, the computer asked you to pick a number between one and ten, and no matter what number you chose, the answer would be, You Lose! Take off your clothes!



I'm not playing that game with you.  Maybe @TK16 will?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh yea along with Allison Krauss I may have listened to some Gregorian chants with those tubes but that is about it.



OMG.  The tubes are ruined and I haven't even plugged them in yet.  No tube should be subjected to that.  Not even a GE.  Maybe a Philips ECG....  



Paladin79 said:


> Oh and thanks for including the tube with the phono pre-amp Bill, I hope to mess around with it this Friday. My new LCR meter just arrived and the ESR meter should be close behind.



Those are killer tubes. I'm saving a choice pair for @Ripper2860 at some point, although he's being mean so I might just sell them to BangyBang instead.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You mean there's a meaningful meaning behind those numbers?  I thought if you just added them all up and then divided by 1,000 it was @Ripper2860 's IQ.  Dang.



This could well be a puzzle within a puzzle but you are better off just listening to the tubes. Keep it simple.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Tube 968 is the GE, my eardrums started to bleed a little just looking at it.



I'm gonna paint it black. Then it'll sound less horrible.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Something like that, if Bill figures out the code and puts the GE in last place I may have to retire the tubes and bow to his greatness. I should also contact the Smithsonian cause that code is not easy to break and Bill would be on a level with Alan Turing.



If math is required for me to figure it out, your steak dinner is totally safe.  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If math is required for me to figure it out, your steak dinner is totally safe.  LOL!



Those could be part of the street address to steak houses in your area and steak houses in mine. Pick the wrong tube and suddenly the address becomes very meaningful. I never gave the name out of my favorite steak place by the way, I was careful not to. Pick really badly and I start moving up the list to nicer and nicer restaurants.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> I should also contact the Smithsonian cause that code is not easy to break and Bill would be on a level with Alan Turing.



Bill's been castrated and on the British 50 pound note!?


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Bill's been castrated and on the British 50 pound note!?



No, no Bill is in NC, that is still part of America right? It would have to be like a quarter or nickel or some such, maybe even a GE stock certificate. That would be fitting.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 17, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> No, no Bill is in NC, that is still part of America right?



Not really sure.  After the gerrymandering recently, NC may be a part of the UK now.  

And while you may be disputing his presence on British money, you are not offering any argument against his having been castrated.  (Which would explain his 'love affair' with tubes and his propensity towards fondling them.)


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Not really sure.  After the gerrymandering recently, NC may be a part of the UK now.
> 
> And while you may be disputing his presence on British money, you are not offering any argument against his having been castrated.


Things happen, what does one do?


----------



## Ripper2860

I guess given his circumstance, I can forgive his seeking solace in the songs of Marilyn Manson.  Maybe I've been too tough on poor, Bill.  I think it's time I be more understanding and forgiving.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Not really sure.  After the gerrymandering recently, NC may be a part of the UK now.
> 
> And while you may be disputing his presence on British money, you are not offering any argument against his having been castrated.  (Which would explain his 'love affair' with tubes and his propensity towards fondling them.)



That's it.

I just received the PayPal payment from BangyBang for those 7316s.  He'll probably relabel them as GE's...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I guess given his circumstance, I can forgive his seeking solace in the songs of Marilyn Manson.  Maybe I've been too tough on poor, Bill.  I think it's time I be more understanding and forgiving.



Too late.


----------



## Ripper2860

YOU person!!!!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's it.
> 
> I just received the PayPal payment from BangyBang for those 7316s.  He'll probably relabel them as GE's...


Hmm 7316, that number sounds familiar. Maybe one of the pvc pipes was marked that but I cannot recall. I think one of my cats ate the answer sheet, I will just wing it when Bill makes his picks.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> That's it.
> 
> I just received the PayPal payment from BangyBang for those 7316s.  He'll probably relabel them as GE's...


7316`s are garbage, I rate them very low in my top 15 list, just ahead of GE.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 17, 2019)

TK16 said:


> 7316`s are garbage, I rate them very low in my top 15 list, just ahead of GE.



Yes -- I see they are #1 on your worst tubes list.


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> Yes -- I see they are #1 on your worst tubes list.


It is an inverted list. 1 is worst 15 best.


----------



## Ripper2860

Exactly -- the #1 worst tube ever!!


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> It is an inverted list. 1 is worst 15 best.


Ok now I must hear this tube, the preamp Bill sent will take that and two 6SN7’s. Soon I will have a better understanding of Bill’s tube judgement. That should be a good thing right?


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> Ok now I must hear this tube, the preamp Bill sent will take that and two 6SN7’s. Soon I will have a better understanding of Bill’s tube judgement. That should be a good thing right?


Best 7316`s are the D-getter long plates followed closely by the D-getter short plates. Killer tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok now I must hear this tube, the preamp Bill sent will take that and two 6SN7’s. Soon I will have a better understanding of Bill’s tube judgement. That should be a good thing right?



Well, not that my judgement is any question of course , but that preamp I just sent needs 6SL7's.  6SN7's can work in it but will probably be pretty noisy with only 1/3rd the gain of a 6SL.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> YOU person!!!!



Oh, quit whining. I'm sure you can buy them from BangyBang for $750 for the pair. Just ask before he relabels them to something else.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, not that my judgement is any question of course , but that preamp I just sent needs 6SL7's.  6SN7's can work in it but will probably be pretty noisy with only 1/3rd the gain of a 6SL.


It is starting to come back to me now lol, I would have checked the books before I went too far.


----------



## TK16 (Jul 17, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Well, not that my judgement is any question of course , but that preamp I just sent needs 6SL7's.  6SN7's can work in it but will probably be pretty noisy with only 1/3rd the gain of a 6SL.


Honest opinion on these? Worth the extra $1400 or so?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-pair-Shuguang-WE6SL7-Replica-Western-Electric-Valve-Vacuum-Tubes-6SL7/253540104990?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=155409f06c4d41b8aeac32275dd620aa&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&mehot=lo&sd=253540104990&itm=253540104990&pg=2481888&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:56465205-a8fa-11e9-a729-74dbd180b618|parentrq:02ab485916c0aa16b66262ddff98f836|iid:1
Price is slightly higher than the 3 pairs sold.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Honest opinion on these? Worth the extra $1400 or so?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-pair-Shuguang-WE6SL7-Replica-Western-Electric-Valve-Vacuum-Tubes-6SL7/253540104990?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=155409f06c4d41b8aeac32275dd620aa&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&mehot=lo&sd=253540104990&itm=253540104990&pg=2481888&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:56465205-a8fa-11e9-a729-74dbd180b618|parentrq:02ab485916c0aa16b66262ddff98f836|iid:1
> Price is slightly higher than the 3 pairs sold.



ROFL!!   I wouldn't pay $1600 for a pair of Chinese tubes even if they gave you a good, um, _fondling_ every time you fired 'em up.  Well, on second thought, maybe if they did that....

6SL7's used to command some pretty decent prices until they fell out of favor with the designers/manufacturers a good while back. Hard to find currently made amps/preamps that use them any more. I think I sent Tom a pair of military 40's Sylvanias that 20 years ago would have brought $200. Now you can buy them for $50. Go back 20 years and NOS 6SN7's were dirt cheap, and look where they are now.  Demand driven pricing to be sure. But $1600 for two Chinese tubes?  Can't ever foresee dollars in that quantity crossing that border out of my wallet. Don't mean to bash all Chinese tubes, just most of them.


----------



## Paladin79

This should be a great weekend to stay in and test tubes, a serious heat wave is about to hit.

Good info on the 6SN7’s and 6SL7’s Bill!

If time allows I will start my own research on burn in with Foton tubes, fun stuff.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> If time allows I will start my own research on burn in with Foton tubes, fun stuff.



I was expecting you to take some vacation time to get that done.  What's the deal?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I was expecting you to take some vacation time to get that done.  What's the deal?



Hey there are a lot of ins and outs and what have you's involved in doing something like this. I have to search back through some of my past photos of testing I did with a spectrum analyzer so I can match those up with the results I hoped to get if I really ran some tests this time. Nothing but the best will do for you Bill.  I cannot just post such things five minutes after I receive the tubes, I need to wait an appropriate amount of time and get my story straight before I launch into my explanation of why I am right and you are as wrong as is humanly possible.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hey there are a lot of ins and outs and what have you's involved in doing something like this. I have to search back through some of my past photos of testing I did with a spectrum analyzer so I can match those up with the results I hoped to get if I really ran some tests this time. Nothing but the best will do for you Bill.  I cannot just post such things five minutes after I receive the tubes, I need to wait an appropriate amount of time and get my story straight before I launch into my explanation of why I am right and you are as wrong as is humanly possible.



LOL!   There is always the possibility that I've made a mistake somewhere along the way, but the last time was September 24th, 1998.  There is a remote possibility though that it was the 25th, so I could be mistaken.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ....I need to wait an appropriate amount of time and get my story straight before I launch into my explanation of why I am right and you are as wrong as is humanly possible.



I fully understand, Tom.  I will need bulletproof objective data to support my subjective opinions.


----------



## bcowen

Here's the freshly made extension ready for its first encounter with a PVC pipe...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I fully understand, Tom.  I will need bulletproof objective data to support my subjective opinions.



spoken like a true pseudo-scientist

I do want to re-solder the pins, I was getting a bit of microphony on one of the tubes when I plugged it in for a quick listen. I subbed about every pair of 6sn7's I could lay my hands on to try to reduce the noise in the AE3 and picked up on it then.  Just part of dealing with tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Here's the freshly made extension ready for its first encounter with a PVC pipe...



Very nice, going into the pvc and being pretty much a one time plug in, I went for less expensive but gold plated on the sockets I used. I very carefully cleaned the tube pins and went through all tests after installed just to be certain. Were I to use such extenders repeatedly I would go with something like that myself.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Very nice, going into the pvc and being pretty much a one time plug in, I went for less expensive but gold plated on the sockets I used. I very carefully cleaned the tube pins and went through all tests after installed just to be certain. Were I to use such extenders repeatedly I would go with something like that myself.



The sockets on the PVC tubes look like the ones Angela sells.  Really quite nice for inexpensive phenolic sockets IMO.  I have quite a few myself. Not sure if they're the same exact ones, but from the outside they are visually identical. For someone with your soldering expertise there's probably little difference between the phenolic and teflon.  For me, it's damn hard to melt teflon so it mates up with my soldering abilities very nicely.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 18, 2019)

bcowen said:


> The sockets on the PVC tubes look like the ones Angela sells.  Really quite nice for inexpensive phenolic sockets IMO.  I have quite a few myself. Not sure if they're the same exact ones, but from the outside they are visually identical. For someone with your soldering expertise there's probably little difference between the phenolic and teflon.  For me, it's damn hard to melt teflon so it mates up with my soldering abilities very nicely.


They are indeed from Angela. Since I had so many to do I went through the soldering pretty quickly. Figure 160 solder joints on ten of them with the plug pins being the most noticeable and possibly problematic.

I pretty much used what I had and what I could obtain easily in making those test rigs, hopefully all goes well and the tubes hold up and the bottom plugs stay in place.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> They are indeed from Angela. Since I had so many to do I went through the soldering pretty quickly. Figure 160 solder joints on ten of them with the plug pins being the most noticeable and possibly problematic.
> 
> I pretty much used what I had and what I could obtain easily in making those test rigs, hopefully all goes well and the tubes hold up and the bottom plugs stay in place.



I installed a fire extinguisher adjacent to the Lyr just in case.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I installed a fire extinguisher adjacent to the Lyr just in case.



In the event of equipment damage or loss of limb, I will know to warn anyone else I send those to in the future. I appreciate your guinea piggedness as you do the testing. If you get laid up in the hospital, hopefully you still have a functional finger where you can cover my steak dinner by Paypal. You should probably build my email address in before this weekend so it is on speed dial when it is time to pay up.


----------



## bcowen

In the event of equipment damage or loss of limb, you can forget the steak.  I'll overnight you the nasty cup of pudding from the hospital instead.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> In the event of equipment damage or loss of limb, you can forget the steak.  I'll overnight you the nasty cup of pudding from the hospital instead.



Bill has run all tubes through a tester and none failed but some of my craftsmanship in the use of sealing wax under the tube tops may have been a little janky, but not enough to cause any major issues. I was a little concerned about one tube reading I was getting but I will discuss that after Bill makes his choices and my tube tester gave me the same reading on all tubes of that ilk so I figured all was well. No tubes have exploded yet so that is a plus, there may be some actual listening in the Lyr coming up soon!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 18, 2019)

Did you use scented wax?  I'm pretty fond of Lilac or Fresh Linen.  


Note to self:  File for patent on Vacuum tube Scentsy-like wax fragrance melts.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Did you use scented wax?  I'm pretty fond of Lilac or Fresh Linen.
> 
> 
> Note to self:  File for patent on Vacuum tube Scentsy-like wax fragrance melts.



I found some cheap generic sealing wax, I believe it has a wax scent but it does nearly match the colors of the tube plugs.   This is for Bill, I am trying not to dazzle his other senses so that he can concentrate on what the tubes sound like. I already have him wondering about the significance of the four numbers on the front of each tube, I would feel guilty if I distract him too much.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill has run all tubes through a tester and none failed but some of my craftsmanship in the use of sealing wax under the tube tops may have been a little janky, but not enough to cause any major issues. I was a little concerned about one tube reading I was getting but I will discuss that after Bill makes his choices and my tube tester gave me the same reading on all tubes of that ilk so I figured all was well. No tubes have exploded yet so that is a plus, there may be some actual listening in the Lyr coming up soon!



Chances are pretty good the one you're concerned about is a Foton.  Of course I could be wrong (I haven't done any listening yet), but we know what the chances of that are.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I found some cheap generic sealing wax, I believe it has a wax scent but it does nearly match the colors of the tube plugs.   This is for Bill, I am trying not to dazzle his other senses so that he can concentrate on what the tubes sound like. I already have him wondering about the significance of the four numbers on the front of each tube, I would feel guilty if I distract him too much.



Yeah, the only disappointing thing so far is that the PVC tube is *way* too small in diameter for, um, _other_ uses.  Just glad I'm getting these before @Ripper2860 gets his hands on them.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Did you use scented wax?  I'm pretty fond of Lilac or Fresh Linen.
> 
> 
> Note to self:  File for patent on Vacuum tube Scentsy-like wax fragrance melts.



Just try to stay away from your favorite scents, like Eau 'de Landfill or Chanel No. S(ewer).  May be a hit!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 19, 2019)

I bet you thought long and hard before posting the above.  Pretty proud of yourself, I bet.  



bcowen said:


> Yeah, the only disappointing thing so far is that it is *way* too small in diameter...



Weird.  That's exactly what your wife said about...


Never mind.  That would be hitting below the belt.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 19, 2019)

I was just at a local electronics distributor, I have known the guys in there for many, many years and we got talking tubes and such and I mentioned the steak dinner bet with Bill, and described some of the tubes I sent him. The owner basically said, rib eyes are really nice since it sounds like you are going to be enjoying a steak dinner soon. 

I am busy with pre-amps and electrolytics but soon I may get to start some Foton 1954 measurements.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was just at a local electronics distributor, I have known the guys in there for many, many years and we got talking tubes and such and I mentioned the steak dinner bet with Bill, and described some of the tubes I sent him. The owner basically said, rib eyes are really nice since it sounds like you are going to be enjoying a steak dinner soon.



Most guys at electronics distributorships don't know the difference between a Rubycon and a Nichicon or a Riken and a Dale.  So I'm not particularly worried.  Besides, everyone knows that a NY Strip blows a ribeye out of the water any day of the week.


----------



## Robert Padgett

The suspense is killing me. Piedmont North Carolina is on Earthquake Alert. Nothing has rumbled in well over 10,000 years, being in piedmont between very old and stable mountain ranges. Rumors were spreading like wildfire about the PVC tube testing in Western Piedmont. Seismic sensors are being deployed. "This could be the Big One which the Carolinas have never worried about," said Earle McNew, who was at the rest stop when interviewed. He was also a seismologist with a National Institute, but we didn't ask him any detailed questions.
Governor Roy Cooper and his South Carolina Henry McMasters passed a joint
resolution authorizing, should rioting occur, the use of deadly force by National Guardsmen.

The stock of General Electrics broke records as the three investors were all buying Short options. Except for one real tall blonde option which T. Boone Pickens had on his arm.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Most guys at electronics distributorships don't know the difference between a Rubycon and a Nichicon or a Riken and a Dale.  So I'm not particularly worried.  Besides, everyone knows that a NY Strip blows a ribeye out of the water any day of the week.


These guys are more hands on, they rebuild antique radios and are more technical than salesmen. They still sell tubes lol.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Here's the freshly made extension ready for its first encounter with a PVC pipe...


How do you label the ones that are not that, erh, straight?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> I'm surprised the tubes didn't kick and fight their way out of the PVC tubes to go run and hide somewhere.  Hopefully you weren't actually listening, just testing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





bcowen said:


> I'm surprised the tubes didn't kick and fight their way out of the PVC tubes to go run and hide somewhere.  Hopefully you weren't actually listening, just testing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





bcowen said:


> I'm surprised the tubes didn't kick and fight their way out of the PVC tubes to go run and hide somewhere.  Hopefully you weren't actually listening, just testing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah. Contest regarding the sound of 6SN7 tubes in Lyr 3 in the thread about tube rolling in Vali 2.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 19, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Yeah. Contest regarding the sound of 6SN7 tubes in Lyr 3 in the thread about tube rolling in Vali 2.



Hopefully it is not too far off topic, when done we will have Mr.Cowen's opinion of various tubes i sent him and we will see if he can clearly put GE at the very bottom of the list as he believes he can. 

I use the 6sn7's and equivalents  in various devices including the Vali 2 and Bill's insight might prove helpful, or not, we shall know fairly soon.

Out of curiosity I am going to see if I can measure any change between a 6sn7 equivalent Foton tube after it has burnt in for 100 hours, compared to a fairly identical tube with no such burn in time.

Subjective vs objective I suppose.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 19, 2019)

Here are before, during and after shots of replacing the solder inside the pins of a Russian tube, Foton in this case. In the middle shot I  have used a solder sucker to remove the old solder, I used a small metal pick to apply liquid solder flux, and then finally I replaced the old solder with a high quality solder with a small silver content. In applying the flux with the sharp pick, I could even tell the tube wires were loose inside the pins. I try to touch just the outside of the tube pins with the soldering iron to make cleanup easier, in the event I get a little too much solder on the outside.I was getting a bit of microphonics in one of the tubes so we will see if this fixes it. The other I am replacing just so I keep them as identical as possible.

I do not like to re-flow 65 year old solder and hope what ever old rosin is still inside the pins does its job. 

After a cleaning with rosin flux remover, an alcohol based cleaning solution, and deoxit as well as a fine file and brass bristled brush, they go back into the tester. These tubes were matched by our own @bcowen and they are still spot on after my solder replacement.

These 1954 Foton ribbed plate tubes are especially sweet sounding in the Vali 2, I am listening to Nanci Griffith and Arlo Guthrie doing an old Townes Van Zandt song, Tecumseh Valley. Allison Krauss on violin. No more microphonics.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> How do you label the ones that are not that, erh, straight?



Un-straight?   

When you have 25+ extensions and adapters, it makes it much easier to quickly pick the one you want out of the box if it's labeled (rather than having to test with a DVM every time). 'Straight' just means it's a straight through connection with the same pin orientation as the tube. Some call them socket savers.  LOL!  One I have is about 45 degrees off in order to line up a dual socket adapter. Another about 30 degrees off -- same reason, but the adapter had a different orientation relative to the center pin. Some are 6SN7 to 12AU7, some are 6SN7 to 396A, some are 6SN7 to 7N7 adapters (although it could be argued a label is kinda superfluous for that particular one). But label one, might as well label them all. Just me being me. And making labels is my life.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Yeah. Contest regarding the sound of 6SN7 tubes in Lyr 3 in the thread about tube rolling in Vali 2.



Humor us. It will be over soon. 

Or you could buy a 6922 to 6SN7 adapter and join in the fun. Or whatever this is we're doing...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Here are before, during and after shots of replacing the solder inside the pins of a Russian tube, Foton in this case. In the middle shot I  have used a solder sucker to remove the old solder, I used a small metal pick to apply liquid solder flux, and then finally I replaced the old solder with a high quality solder with a small silver content. In applying the flux with the sharp pick, I could even tell the tube wires were loose inside the pins. I try to touch just the outside of the tube pins with the soldering iron to make cleanup easier, in the event I get a little too much solder on the outside.I was getting a bit of microphonics in one of the tubes so we will see if this fixes it. The other I am replacing just so I keep them as identical as possible.
> 
> I do not like to re-flow 65 year old solder and hope what ever old rosin is still inside the pins does its job.
> 
> ...



Allison Krauss may sound better with microphonics.  I do like Arlo though.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Allison Krauss may sound better with microphonics.  I do like Arlo though.


Lol not everyone can be Marilyn Manson but then maybe there is a reason for that. Allison was not singing right then anyway.


----------



## attmci (Jul 19, 2019)

bc
:laughing:
owen said:


> Allison Krauss may sound better with microphonics.  I do like Arlo though.


I hear you: "The GE "side getter" is a sleeper bargain tube as it sounds great and usually all versions cost less that other USA tubes! The GE is like an Amperex: airy, light, great warmth in the mids, and a nice if rather thick bass."


https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-1942-...597004?hash=item287b8e05cc:g:U-QAAOSwzqtcNtFY


----------



## bcowen

OK, Tube #1 has been playing in the Lyr for an hour. I will refrain from naming the 4-digit numbers -- I will identify those only to Tom and Ripper. I'll identify the tube only by the number on top which can be easily changed if someone else wants to play next.  I'm taking notes as I go.  Tube #1 ssssssssounds ssssssssssweet with just an extra dumptruck full of ssssssssssibilance that's giving me a sssssssssplitting headache.  Other than that it's fine.  

Seriously, I'll give it some more play time and see what happens.  If is smooths out it may be a contender. If not, I'm glad I'm getting it out of the way now.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> I hear you: "The GE "side getter" is a sleeper bargain tube as it sounds great and usually all versions cost less that other USA tubes! The GE is like an Amperex: airy, light, great warmth in the mids, and a nice if rather thick bass."
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-1942-...597004?hash=item287b8e05cc:g:U-QAAOSwzqtcNtFY



That tube looks awfully familiar, I may have seen one not long ago but I cannot remember where?  Please note any bet involving someone named Cowen only stipulated that it must be a genuine GE tube.   I cannot imagine one going for over $100, I thought they were all like $10 each cause they are so crappy?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> OK, Tube #1 has been playing in the Lyr for an hour. I will refrain from naming the 4-digit numbers -- I will identify those only to Tom and Ripper. I'll identify the tube only by the number on top which can be easily changed if someone else wants to play next.  I'm taking notes as I go.  Tube #1 ssssssssounds ssssssssssweet with just an extra dumptruck full of ssssssssssibilance that's giving me a sssssssssplitting headache.  Other than that it's fine.
> 
> Seriously, I'll give it some more play time and see what happens.  If is smooths out it may be a contender. If not, I'm glad I'm getting it out of the way now.



Ripper has neither tube numbers or four digit numbers yet. Also he should not get four digit numbers if he intends to listen to these tubes just as you are listening. The answers will be posted as 1-8 but please do not give out anything else Bill otherwise I will need to repackage the tubes and that is a lot of work lol.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> I hear you: "The GE "side getter" is a sleeper bargain tube as it sounds great and usually all versions cost less that other USA tubes! The GE is like an Amperex: airy, light, great warmth in the mids, and a nice if rather thick bass."
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-1942-...597004?hash=item287b8e05cc:g:U-QAAOSwzqtcNtFY



A $103 GE is a bargain?  And sounds like an Amperex?  Wow.  We're not only from different planets, we gotta be from different dimensions too. I don't see any dots on the tube you linked so there's a good chance it was actually made by KenRad. But a bargain?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ripper has neither tube numbers or four digit numbers yet. Also he should not get four digit numbers if he intends to listen to these tubes just as you are listening. The answers will be posted as 1-8 but please do not give out anything else Bill otherwise I will need to repackage the tubes and that is a lot of work lol.



10-4.  I will refer to the top stickered single-digit numbers only going forward. So far #1 is in 10th place.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> A $103 GE is a bargain?  And sounds like an Amperex?  Wow.  We're not only from different planets, we gotta be from different dimensions too. I don't see any dots on the tube you linked so there's a good chance it was actually made by KenRad. But a bargain?


Oh yeah the dots, now I am trying to recall when GE started those. No matter what, the GE I used had the dots, but darn that tube does look kind of familiar though. I will have to find out if Ken-Rad ever used the side getter like that, GE's is pretty distinctive.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 19, 2019)

bcowen said:


> 10-4.  I will refer to the top stickered single-digit numbers only going forward. So far #1 is in 10th place.


Dang there are only 8 tubes and one alternate so if you put that one in tenth place, I have already won!!!!

If you did not like the first tube, this is going to be a loooooooong weekend, I guess it is in my best interest if you find a lot of the tubes in the batch to hate.

If that tube gave you a headache, just wait till you get to the real clinkers!

Ripper was giving mixed signals, he said he was only kidding about not wanting to hear the tubes last I heard. He will have the proper answers though, just not the four digit numbers. I will get them to him tomorrow morn so everything is on the up and up.  Not everyone is crazy, um manly enough to have the courage of their sonic convictions, you are to be commended Bill, win or lose.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Dang there are only 8 tubes and one alternate so if you put that one in tenth place, I have already won!!!!



Thanks for telling me #1 isn't the GE.  LOL!  Leaves Philips ECG's and Sovtek/Electro Harmonix as possible candidates. But I haven't listened to the others yet. Potential increased suckage remains eminently possible.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Dang there are only 8 tubes and one alternate so if you put that one in tenth place, I have already won!!!!
> 
> If you did not like the first tube, this is going to be a loooooooong weekend, I guess it is in my best interest if you find a lot of the tubes in the batch to hate.
> 
> ...



Oh great. My ears already hurt, so will need some time to recover. This may last a lot longer than a weekend. Maybe #1 will smooth out some as it plays, break-in being a reality or not.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Thanks for telling me #1 isn't the GE.  LOL!  Leaves Philips ECG's and Sovtek/Electro Harmonix as possible candidates. But I haven't listened to the others yet. Potential increased suckage remains eminently possible.



I would not believe a whole lot of what I say until the contest is over and you make your final picks.   What matters is what tube you put in eighth place.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I would not believe a whole lot of what I say until the contest is over and you make your final picks.   What matters is what tube you put in eighth place.



Ok. I just gave #1 another quick listen and now it's in 15th place.    Only tubes I've listened to that get worse as they play (initially) are Fotons.  Guess this is going to get quite interesting.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 19, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Oh great. My ears already hurt, so will need some time to recover. This may last a lot longer than a weekend. Maybe #1 will smooth out some as it plays, break-in being a reality or not.



Speaking of break in, I have one of the Fotons burning in for a long period of time, it will pretty much run all weekend but you are to be commended for selecting those two, they match up so well on the equipment I am using that they are starting out pretty well identical.  When properly burned in I will look at readouts but I want a friend with golden ears to listen to them both repeatedly and see if she can consistently spot the one burned in. That way I am using human ears as well as pulling up all the data I can manage. It will mean even more if I cannot spot a difference in testing but she can consistently find that tube. You may have noticed both have new solder, I wanted to eliminate any changes that might have occurred there.

The only thing you can believe is that I did not send you 8 or 9 GE tubes, one GE and all other tubes are proper according to any information I could find on them.


----------



## attmci (Jul 19, 2019)

bcowen said:


> A $103 GE is a bargain?  And sounds like an Amperex?  Wow.  We're not only from different planets, we gotta be from different dimensions too. I don't see any dots on the tube you linked so there's a good chance it was actually made by KenRad. But a bargain?


The sand-blasted dot codes on GE tubes represent the actual date of manufacture. These began to be used in 1952

A bargain? Nope. I thought you're the seller. No?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 19, 2019)

attmci said:


> The sand-blasted dot codes on GE tubes represent the actual date of manufacture. These began to be used in 1952



Thanks Attmci, I have that information somewhere but could not recall it. There is also a specific year when GE bought out Ken-Rad and I want to say it was toward the end or after WW 2, so if you find a war vintage Ken-Rad it is most likely the real deal. I own some but I cannot recall if any were definitive enough to use in this challenge. Maybe, maybe not.

What might be fun is if I PM some of you what tube Bill is listening to as he goes through the numbering system, it would be especially funny if some of the tubes he trashes are really the ones he covets.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Thanks Attmci, I have that information somewhere but could not recall it. There is also a specific year when GE bought out Ken-Rad and I want to say it was toward the end or after WW 2, so if you find a war vintage Ken-Rad it is most likely the real deal. I own some but I cannot recall if any were definitive enough to use in this challenge. Maybe, maybe not.


Tom, the structures of the Ken-Rad and GE tubes are quite different. There are many late Ken-Rad 6SN7GT tubes are actually GE ones.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 19, 2019)

attmci said:


> Tom, the structures of the Ken-Rad and GE tubes are quite different. There are many late Ken-Rad 6SN7GT tubes are actually GE ones.



I thought that was the case. I purchased quite a few GE for this challenge and as I said, I already owned some Ken-Rads.   Some of the Ken-Rads I have are black glass and they are not as easy to see the structure on.

Anyway I need to turn in but I hope Bill will be up most of the night, listening, re-listening. I am having fun with this and as I said, I may privately share a bit of info if Bill is kept in the dark till this is over.


----------



## attmci (Jul 19, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I thought that was the case. I purchased quite a few GE for this challenge and as I said, I already owned some Ken-Rads.   Some of the Ken-Rads I have are black glass and they are not as easy to see the structure on.


All smoke  glass Ken-Rads are real ones.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 19, 2019)

Oh good, I may have to PM you a bit about this later on.  I did a lot of research for this challenge but it is late on a Friday night and I have been up since five AM so it is not always easy for me to be precise on tube dates.

I will just say I sent Bill a lot of what I believe are highly respected tubes, now what he thinks about them as he listens is anyone's guess.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> Ripper was giving mixed signals, he said he was only kidding about not wanting to hear the tubes last I heard.



Sorry about the mixed signals.  I'm definitely NOT participating in the challenge as I have will not be able to dedicate my full attention and effort to this wonderful endeavor.  I'll be happy to act as an impartial party like the PriceWaterhouseCoopers guys at the Oscars.  Do I need to buy a metal briefcase and handcuffs to secure the tube identities?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 20, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Sorry about the mixed signals.  I'm definitely NOT participating in the challenge as I have will not be able to dedicate my full attention and effort to this wonderful endeavor.  I'll be happy to act as an impartial party like the PriceWaterhouseCoopers guys at the Oscars.  Do I need to buy a metal briefcase and handcuffs to secure the tube identities?



You know I was kidding, right?  I may jump in on the end and just blame it on the Tequila if I rate a GE as #1.  

It was this statement that caused me to think you may want to check them out and if you had the four digit numbers you would know which tube is contained in which PVC pipe before you started.

I will rethink how I handle the answers before Bill makes his final call on the list, I have a bit of time.  It could be months before others have heard the tubes what with travel time and all but that has little to do with the Bill challenge other than providing more data on who preferred which tubes.   Note the GE tubes in the photo and the Sylvania laying next to one of them, they certainly look identical. I happened upon this photo as I was searching for some Fivre 6sn7's.  All made in Canada.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 20, 2019)

Yeah, but you know I was kidding about kidding, right?  -- that was likely the Tequila speaking again.  

I will absolutely NOT be participating in the Sonic Emasculation Challenge and that is my FINAL answer. 

Wow.  Those GE's definitely look like circa '40s Sylvie VT-231 types (pre-Bad Boys)..


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Another question to gurus from a noob: some double triodes I am looking at have a difference 15-20% between the sides. Schiit preamps have no balance control. Anyone can recommend a standalone balance control, or should I simply buy a balance pot and wire it to one set of RCA ins and one set of RCA outs to put it between the DAC and Vali 2?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 20, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Another question to gurus from a noob: some double triodes I am looking at have a difference 15-20% between the sides. Schiit preamps have no balance control. Anyone can recommend a standalone balance control, or should I simply buy a balance pot and wire it to one set of RCA ins and one set of RCA outs to put it between the DAC and Vali 2?



That is an interesting question. Personally I like to use two separate control pots whenever possible, and not balance controls. I have an extra project box, I may just make one up and send you a drawing.

I have some excellent single gang Alps stepped pots that are hard to come by, when they became available a couple friends and I bought multiples. Since the signal would be passing through such a box, VU meters might be in order as well.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I thought that was the case. I purchased quite a few GE for this challenge and as I said, I already owned some Ken-Rads.   Some of the Ken-Rads I have are black glass and they are not as easy to see the structure on.
> 
> Anyway I need to turn in but I hope Bill will be up most of the night, listening, re-listening. I am having fun with this and as I said, I may privately share a bit of info if Bill is kept in the dark till this is over.



Sorry. After the 2nd listen to tube #1 last night I couldn't listen any more. My ears hurt. Really. Turned the Lyr off and went to bed. Turned it back on this morning and Tube #1 has been playing for several hours now. I'll listen in a bit and see if the ear-bleed qualities have diminished or disappeared. If so, I'll re-evaluate Tube #1.  If not, it will come out and Tube #2 will go in.  As I said, this will likely not be completed this weekend, especially if I run into more of these that chew my ears up.  I find it difficult to evaluate the overall sonic qualities and presentation of a tube in just a few minutes. I need to listen to it for at least several hours with various types of music. And I've also found that many tubes are fatiguing and hashy/gritty sounding when brand new, and those issues go away after the tube gets some playing time on it.  So that's why I'm giving Tube #1 a second roll of the dice at this point.  But that doesn't change the fact that I've found GE's to suck across all types of music in short AND long term listening.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sorry. After the 2nd listen to tube #1 last night I couldn't listen any more. My ears hurt. Really. Turned the Lyr off and went to bed. Turned it back on this morning and Tube #1 has been playing for several hours now. I'll listen in a bit and see if the ear-bleed qualities have diminished or disappeared. If so, I'll re-evaluate Tube #1.  If not, it will come out and Tube #2 will go in.  As I said, this will likely not be completed this weekend, especially if I run into more of these that chew my ears up.  I find it difficult to evaluate the overall sonic qualities and presentation of a tube in just a few minutes. I need to listen to it for at least several hours with various types of music. And I've also found that many tubes are fatiguing and hashy/gritty sounding when brand new, and those issues go away after the tube gets some playing time on it.  So that's why I'm giving Tube #1 a second roll of the dice at this point.  But that doesn't change the fact that I've found GE's to suck across all types of music in short AND long term listening.



That is interesting, while the tubes do not have exceptionally long burn in, I know of very few that are brand new. Some of the sellers might have claimed measures like NOS.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> That is an interesting question. Personally I like to use two separate control pots whenever possible, and not balance controls. I have an extra project box, I may just make one up and send you a drawing.
> 
> I have some excellent single gang Alps stepped pots that are hard to come by, when they became available a couple friends and I bought multiples. Since the signal would be passing through such a box, VU meters might be in order as well.


Then the box with two pots has to be AFTER the preamp, with headphone jack into preamp, and headphone socket out after, has it not?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Another question to gurus from a noob: some double triodes I am looking at have a difference 15-20% between the sides. Schiit preamps have no balance control. Anyone can recommend a standalone balance control, or should I simply buy a balance pot and wire it to one set of RCA ins and one set of RCA outs to put it between the DAC and Vali 2?



I agree that this is an interesting question.  I'm of the old school type thinking that the absolute best amplification is a "straight wire with gain," or basically that the less stuff that's in the signal path the better. While that's obviously purist, idealistic and an impossible reality, adding pots (even high quality ones) moves away from that. But this brings up the question of how much imbalance between the triodes in a tube would result in an audible effect at the end?  If the amp or preamp was a pure tube gain design, then it would seem logical that a 20% imbalance would be audible as a higher volume in one channel than the other. But that's just a guess on my part.  The Schiits (at least the Vali 2 and Lyr 3) are hybrid designs though. Will imbalanced triodes cause a volume difference with them, and if so, how much imbalance would be required for it to be audible? I don't know the answer to that. Maybe Schiit could add some enlightenment if you emailed them. Maybe not...they may just tell you to buy the tubes from them and not worry about it.   Kinda doubt that though -- they've always seemed to be willing to share any info they have as long as it wouldn't possibly divulge design secrets or get them in potential trouble from a safety standpoint.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Then the box with two pots has to be AFTER the preamp, with headphone jack into preamp, and headphone socket out after, has it not?



Depending on the value of the pots used, it would be a better place to put the pots IMHO. It can have a headphone input and output. Sorry I was in the middle of building some new interconnect cables, I got some new RCA connectors I wanted to try out.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I agree that this is an interesting question.  I'm of the old school type thinking that the absolute best amplification is a "straight wire with gain," or basically that the less stuff that's in the signal path the better. While that's obviously purist, idealistic and an impossible reality, adding pots (even high quality ones) moves away from that. But this brings up the question of how much imbalance between the triodes in a tube would result in an audible effect at the end?  If the amp or preamp was a pure tube gain design, then it would seem logical that a 20% imbalance would be audible as a higher volume in one channel than the other. But that's just a guess on my part.  The Schiits (at least the Vali 2 and Lyr 3) are hybrid designs though. Will imbalanced triodes cause a volume difference with them, and if so, how much imbalance would be required for it to be audible? I don't know the answer to that. Maybe Schiit could add some enlightenment if you emailed them. Maybe not...they may just tell you to buy the tubes from them and not worry about it.   Kinda doubt that though -- they've always seemed to be willing to share any info they have as long as it wouldn't possibly divulge design secrets or get them in potential trouble from a safety standpoint.




I generally just put single ganged pots in place of dual ganged so electrically it is the same. I do this for other reasons than tube balance but that is just me.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Depending on the value of the pots used, it would be a better place to put the pots IMHO. It can have a headphone input and output. Sorry I was in the middle of building some new interconnect cables, I got some new RCA connectors I wanted to try out.



You mean you're not working on the PVC tubes for the 12AU7 challenge?  I'm sooooo disappointed. Thought that was next.  LOL!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I generally just put single ganged pots in place of dual ganged so electrically it is the same. I do this for other reasons than tube balance but that is just me.



True, but a pot is a pot regardless of its gang affiliation.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You mean you're not working on the PVC tubes for the 12AU7 challenge?  I'm sooooo disappointed. Thought that was next.  LOL!!



Let's see if you make it through this one without pulling out all of your hair first lol. I am not sure Ripper ever read all the details leading up to this but anyone can listen to the tubes without betting a steak dinner of course. My curiosity is centered around whether people will consistently pick the GE low, and which tubes will they rate high?

There might be a bit of confusion because toward the end I left the tubes in the pvc for a few hours each just to see how the construction did, all are tubes I have owned for a while or purposely let run in equipment for several hours before they were encased. If that first tube is bothering your ears, set it aside and go on and get back to it later, you are under no time constraints and I am pretty open minded. There is one spare tube that might be used for a special purpose.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> You mean you're not working on the PVC tubes for the 12AU7 challenge?  I'm sooooo disappointed. Thought that was next.  LOL!!


12AU7/ECC82 challenge? Count me in!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 20, 2019)

TK16 said:


> 12AU7/ECC82 challenge? Count me in!



Bill obviously owns more of those tubes than I do, so I can pass my construction techniques on to him and he can put together such a challenge. The pvc might be a little heavy for those tubes but I bet something could be done to make it as blind as possible. There are less worries about tube bases being identifiable.


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> Bill obviously owns more of those tubes than I do, so I can pass my construction techniques on to him and he can put together such a challenge. The pvc might be a little heavy for those tubes but I bet something could be done to make it as blind as possible. There are less worries about tube bases being identifiable.


Think black spray paint would suffice covering ECC82`s and covering a Telefunken diamond if need be? Unless it`s flameable, I`ll bow out gracefully then.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 20, 2019)

TK16 said:


> Think black spray paint would suffice covering ECC82`s and covering a Telefunken diamond if need be? Unless it`s flameable, I`ll bow out gracefully then.



I have used special black spray paint to re-coat outdoor grills that would rust otherwise, It will withstand over 500 degrees F so 90 degrees or so should not be a problem. Heck if Bill sent me a selection of wonderful tubes I would spray paint the hell out of them it that is the route people want to go.   All 6sn7's in my test are not damaged in the least and I have a feeling you would be removing all labeling if you were able to remove the paint down the road.

 Unless Bill goes after tube number One with an ax that is, they should not be damaged in this experiment.  

I have a 6SN7 equivalent Foton tube burning in with continual music and I will run it for 100 hours per Bill's time frame. Both channels are going direct to an oscilloscope and I can monitor them at any given time, and switch over to a tone generator as well.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have a 6SN7 equivalent Foton tube burning in with continual music and I will run it for 100 hours per Bill's time frame. Both channels are going direct to an oscilloscope and I can monitor them at any given time, and switch over to a tone generator as well.



I'm most interested to see what happens here, not only with your test instruments but with your friend with the sensitive ears. It wouldn't surprise me greatly if your test equipment doesn't show anything remarkable, but it wouldn't surprise me either if it does. I _will_ be surprised though if your friend doesn't hear a difference.


----------



## bcowen

Tube #2 is in and past the 1-hour warm up. Thank goodness it's not an ear bleeder!   Then I'd have to wait until at least tomorrow to let my ears recover enough for #3.  I'll spend more time this afternoon and evening with #2, and then possibly get #3 going later tonight.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Think black spray paint would suffice covering ECC82`s and covering a Telefunken diamond if need be? Unless it`s flameable, I`ll bow out gracefully then.



I only paint the ones black that I sell to BangyBang. That way he can remove the paint, label them whatever premium, high--dollar brand he wants, and plead ignorance about who actually made the tube.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Tube #2 is in and past the 1-hour warm up. Thank goodness it's not an ear bleeder!   Then I'd have to wait until at least tomorrow to let my ears recover enough for #3.  I'll spend more time this afternoon and evening with #2, and then possibly get #3 going later tonight.



I can only remind you that the bet is for steak with wine, not steak with whine. Tough it out man, you can do it!


----------



## attmci (Jul 20, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I have used special black spray paint to re-coat outdoor grills that would rust otherwise, It will withstand over 500 degrees F so 90 degrees or so should not be a problem. Heck if Bill sent me a selection of wonderful tubes I would spray paint the hell out of them it that is the route people want to go.   All 6sn7's in my test are not damaged in the least and I have a feeling you would be removing all labeling if you were able to remove the paint down the road.
> 
> Unless Bill goes after tube number One with an ax that is, they should not be damaged in this experiment.
> 
> I have a 6SN7 equivalent Foton tube burning in with continual music and I will run it for 100 hours per Bill's time frame. Both channels are going direct to an oscilloscope and I can monitor them at any given time, and switch over to a tone generator as well.


You can sell these as smoked glass TS 12au7, one of my favorite tubes.

Buy some before TK here raise the price soon.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 20, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I'm most interested to see what happens here, not only with your test instruments but with your friend with the sensitive ears. It wouldn't surprise me greatly if your test equipment doesn't show anything remarkable, but it wouldn't surprise me either if it does. I _will_ be surprised though if your friend doesn't hear a difference.



It is tricky to say hear a difference, now if she can consistently pick one against the other, accurately that is where the true test comes in. Put the same wine in two glasses and tell a person one costs twice as much as the other without them knowing and they would probably taste a difference. This has been done before with folks who were supposed wine experts. I am neutral in this and as I said I replaced the solder in both so they should be as equal as they can be now. I could be wrong but I believe I have noticed you mentioning this change in Russian tubes more than other types and over a longer time period.

Oh and I am running the 100 burn in, in a Vali 2. Using a tone generator with an easy setting for 20-20,000 my high frequencies do drop out sooner than I had hoped, so I am pretty realistic to rely on younger ears. If she is still in town there is another young lady who is a trumpet soloist I will use as well on the testing if possible. She also scored well in examining a group of DAC's not long ago.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> You can sell these as smoke glass TS 12au7, one of my favorite tubes.



I imagine the smoke is generally on the inside of the glass but I could be wrong.  I do not know that tube, as soon as I tried a 6sn7 in a Bottlehead Crack, I did not go back to 12AU7's but maybe I did not try enough of them.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> I imagine the smoke is generally on the inside of the glass but I could be wrong.  I do not know that tube, as soon as I tried a 6sn7 in a Bottlehead Crack, I did not go back to 12AU7's but maybe I did not try enough of them.


Inside or outside who cares. LOL.

They are very good driver tubes for the crack.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 20, 2019)

attmci said:


> Inside or outside who cares. LOL.
> 
> They are very good driver tubes for the crack.


 
I am about to head for a dinner party and I am hoping like crazy it is being held inside lol, It is freaking hot outside today so I care and I want to leave cold beverages long enough to enjoy a bite or two of food. 

Perhaps you can point me to a couple of the smoked glass TS 12AU7's sometime if you like them so well. My only hopes is I do not have to sell a body part to own a couple of them. If that is the case we may need to take an inventory of what Bill has available, maybe a spleen or appendix or kidney would suffice.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> I am about to head for a dinner party and I am hoping like crazy it is being held inside lol, It is freaking hot outside today so I care and I want to leave cold beverages long enough to enjoy a bite or two of food.
> 
> Perhaps you can point me to a couple of the smoked glass TS 12AU7's sometime if you like them so well. My only hopes is I do not have to sell a body part to own a couple of them. If that is the case we may need to take an inventory of what Bill has available, maybe a spleen or appendix or kidney would suffice.


Not that expensive. These have sound signature similar to their 6sn7gt big brother, but much cheaper.
Enjoy your dinner.


----------



## TK16 (Jul 20, 2019)

attmci said:


> You can sell these as smoked glass TS 12au7, one of my favorite tubes.
> 
> Buy some before TK here raise the price soon.


Much bigger profit in marking them the Telefunken G73R.
Though be careful not to test them at 12.6V, there is a SLIGHT chance that they would be Telefunken ECC88`s and I would not want anyone to blow out their tube and or tester.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

attmci said:


> Not that expensive. These have sound signature similar to their 6sn7gt big brother, but much cheaper.
> Enjoy your dinner.


Some hearsay. I have read that there are two types of TS 12AU7 black glass: with black plates, and with grey plates, black plates being markedly superior. Cannot vouch for it - I do not have any (but will look for them now).


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am about to head for a dinner party and I am hoping like crazy it is being held inside lol, It is freaking hot outside today so I care and I want to leave cold beverages long enough to enjoy a bite or two of food.
> 
> Perhaps you can point me to a couple of the smoked glass TS 12AU7's sometime if you like them so well. My only hopes is I do not have to sell a body part to own a couple of them. If that is the case we may need to take an inventory of what Bill has available, maybe a spleen or appendix or kidney would suffice.



Don't have any TS 12AU7's period, in fact can't ever remember owning or listening to one.  I've sold off most of my stash of the really good stuff, but kept a few pairs of each of the faves.


----------



## Ripper2860

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Some hearsay. I have read that there are two types of TS 12AU7 black glass: with black plates, and with grey plates, black plates being markedly superior. Cannot vouch for it - I do not have any (but will look for them now).



I've heard the same thing.  The smoked glass / black plates are the ones to get.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I can only remind you that the bet is for steak with wine, not steak with whine. Tough it out man, you can do it!



I must admit I never contemplated the tubes containing razor blade firing miniguns as part of the sampling. My bust.  But I'll survive.  The ear bleeders just slow down the process as you gotta wait for the wound to scab over before you can listen to a different tube.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I will rethink how I handle the answers before Bill makes his final call on the list, I have a bit of time.  It could be months before others have heard the tubes what with travel time and all but that has little to do with the Bill challenge other than providing more data on who preferred which tubes.   Note the GE tubes in the photo and the Sylvania laying next to one of them, they certainly look identical. I happened upon this photo as I was searching for some Fivre 6sn7's.  All made in Canada.



So, question of the day:  who made those tubes?  Sylvania or GE?  

https://tubesound.com/identifying-ge-ken-rad-manufactured-tubes/


----------



## Ripper2860

Nice article.  The tubes pictured by @Paladin79  have bottom flashing and getters as opposed to the top flashing referenced in the article.  The GEs referenced by paladin79 seem to definitely be Sylvania, but much earlier than the GTB referenced in the article.  Nice find!


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Nice article.  The tubes pictured by @Paladin79  have bottom flashing and getters as opposed to the top flashing referenced in the article.  The GEs referenced by paladin79 seem to definitely be Sylvania, but much earlier than the GTB referenced in the article.  Nice find!



Those obviously look like sylvanias but maybe being Canadian made makes a difference.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I must admit I never contemplated the tubes containing razor blade firing miniguns as part of the sampling. My bust.  But I'll survive.  The ear bleeders just slow down the process as you gotta wait for the wound to scab over before you can listen to a different tube.



I can recall someone saying early on that low emission tubes would sound bad so I tried to insure all tubes measured fairly well. It will be interesting to see if anyone else dislikes that particular tube down the road.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I can recall someone saying early on that low emission tubes would sound bad so I tried to insure all tubes measured fairly well. It will be interesting to see if anyone else dislikes that particular tube down the road.



Interesting that is the lowest testing tube of the group, but not by much (2400/2400 on the 752 versus 2500/2500 in the next lowest). Min for the 752 is 400 with an x4 multiplier so 1600, so it still tests well above minimum values. I have listened to the 2500/2500 tube, and while it didn't blow my socks off, it isn't instantly fatiguing like that one.  I tested each tube in the 752, the Weston 981, and the Hickok 539B. GM readings were different between the 3 testers which is no surprise, but they all correlated quite well.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Nice article.  The tubes pictured by @Paladin79  have bottom flashing and getters as opposed to the top flashing referenced in the article.  The GEs referenced by paladin79 seem to definitely be Sylvania, but much earlier than the GTB referenced in the article.  Nice find!



Yeah I know the tubes aren't the same between the posts, I was more interested that the Sylvania-made GE was still stamped with GE's EIA code.  Somebody was insistent a while back that the EIA code was an ironclad indication of the actual manufacturer, and that simply isn't true in all cases.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 21, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Yeah I know the tubes aren't the same between the posts, I was more interested that the Sylvania-made GE was still stamped with GE's EIA code.  Somebody was insistent a while back that the EIA code was an ironclad indication of the actual manufacturer, and that simply isn't true in all cases.


It certainly holds true pretty often but there are exceptions.

Those exception tubes are not that easy to find but I do believe I have located one and I will see what I can get it for. It has all the indications of being Sylvania, black plate, bottom foil getter etc. No matter what, it does not appear to be a GE so I am curious to check one out.


----------



## bcowen

The 5th tube is now in its one hour warm-up period. Note for Tom -- I'm doing these in random order, so the 5th tube is not necessarily the tube with the #5 sticker on top.  Need to keep you guessing until the end too.    Of the first 4, one is horrid, two are very nice but not throne candidates, and one is pretty awesome. When we're done, I'll be quite interested to know what that tube is, 'cause if it's not already in my stash it soon will be.  If it turns out that's the GE, then I'll eat all the words I've ever spoken about GE while you're eating your winner's steak.  But the chances of that are about the same as my wife getting a job, which is about as close to zero as you can get.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 21, 2019)

bcowen said:


> The 5th tube is now in its one hour warm-up period. Note for Tom -- I'm doing these in random order, so the 5th tube is not necessarily the tube with the #5 sticker on top.  Need to keep you guessing until the end too.    Of the first 4, one is horrid, two are very nice but not throne candidates, and one is pretty awesome. When we're done, I'll be quite interested to know what that tube is, 'cause if it's not already in my stash it soon will be.  If it turns out that's the GE, then I'll eat all the words I've ever spoken about GE while you're eating your winner's steak.  But the chances of that are about the same as my wife getting a job, which is about as close to zero as you can get.



I do not have the list in front of me anyway, I am keeping that stashed away so I do not give you any clues. When finished you will know the exact tubes and I have a strong suspicion which tube you really liked so far, before you are done, I expect that number to have increased.

Often we are influenced by others but I think it is fun to listen without having too many preconceived ideas. A three hole black plate Sylvania bad boy is better than a two hole black plate etc. If you have the two tubes in front of you, you might expect the three hole to be better. Now blindly pick it consistently over the two hole and you would believe it more but first you have to be able to do that.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jul 21, 2019)

Whilst @bcowen is sweating over the 6SN7 challenge, I am going through my 6C8Gs. They all sound good.

I found one really awesome tube -

Ken-Rad JAN-CKR-6C8-G VT-163 from 1943,


and one excellent Raytheon 6C8G from 1952:
 .

EDIT: and SYLVANIA US NAVY CHS 6C8G, another excellent tube.

It seems that recently there were quite some of these Ken-Rads NOS NIB on ebay for reasonable price, but, alas, not anymore. Anyone sees them again - please let me know, I'd buy more.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Whilst @bcowen is sweating over the 6SN7 challenge, I am going throught my 6C8Gs. They all sound good.
> 
> I found one really awesome tube -
> 
> ...


I own a couple of those but the gain seemed low compared to 6SN7’s, I tried them before I got my tube tester so I will need to re-evaluate some time.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I own a couple of those but the gain seemed low compared to 6SN7’s, I tried them before I got my tube tester so I will need to re-evaluate some time.


I just turn the pot clockwise


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I just turn the pot clockwise



Apparently you get the same effect lol


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Those obviously look like sylvanias but maybe being Canadian made makes a difference.



Being Canadian _always_ makes a difference


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Being Canadian _always_ makes a difference



Yeah, don't tubes run cooler up there?


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Yeah, don't tubes run cooler up there?


Not as cool as the white tops.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Not as cool as the white tops.



But how can you tell it's a white top if you painted it black?  

This is all so confusing....


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> But how can you tell it's a white top if you painted it black?
> 
> This is all so confusing....


Stealth technology.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> When we're done, I'll be quite interested to know what that tube is, 'cause if it's not already in my stash it soon will be. If it turns out that's the GE, then I'll eat all the words I've ever spoken about GE while you're eating your winner's steak.



So if the GE reigns supreme, @Paladin79 will be eating steak while you are eating crow.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 21, 2019)

Mr Trev said:


> Being Canadian _always_ makes a difference



Being Canadian would really make a difference if you can locate some of the old Sylvania tubes with the GE names on them for a reasonable price lol.

Indications are that @bcowen should be getting pretty close to having heard all eight tubes so maybe we can wrap up his portion of the challenge before very long.

Now if I do lose the bet I reserve the right to send a radiation detector to the next person who receives the tubes, in the event Bill was able to run them through an X-ray machine somewhere or I can just use the honor system and take his word that he did not. 

Since it is nearly over I can think of several tubes I could have used in the challenge. I will not talk about them yet but will mention that I just purchased a tube listed as GE that has all indications of being a Sylvania bad boy or at least the details that show I did not buy a GE tube for that price.  $10.00

We just suffered a power outage after a flash thunderstorm on top of some pretty severe heat. I am going to take this as an omen that somewhere in the universe @bcowen was right about something and I am about to lose a bet.

The GE tube just has to finish in the top seven for me to win if you want to consider that reigning supreme.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Yeah, don't tubes run cooler up there?



Not lately they don't… been way too hot to even use any of my cans.
Talked to another fellow online and he claims that a Canadian Westinghouse was one of the better 6cg7s he's heard, so we must be on to something.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> So if the GE reigns supreme, @Paladin79 will be eating steak while you are eating crow.



That would be one way of putting it.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Being Canadian would really make a difference if you can locate some of the old Sylvania tubes with the GE names on them for a reasonable price lol.
> 
> Indications are that @bcowen should be getting pretty close to having heard all eight tubes so maybe we can wrap up his portion of the challenge before very long.
> 
> ...



Close but not done.  Need a few more days. 

And no, I didn't run these through an X-ray machine.  And when I tried to run them through my MRI machine in the basement, they all just slammed forcefully into the side of the inner casing.  Something about ferrous metal and MRI machines just don't get along.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Close but not done.  Need a few more days.
> 
> And no, I didn't run these through an X-ray machine.  And when I tried to run them through my MRI machine in the basement, they all just slammed forcefully into the side of the inner casing.  Something about ferrous metal and MRI machines just don't get along.



No hurry, let the anticipation build and I want you to be comfortable with your final selection. If you have time listen to choice number nine, after your challenge is over we might put that one into play as long as it is not the GE we are replacing lol.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> So if the GE reigns supreme, @Paladin79 will be eating steak while you are eating crow.



If the GE ends up reigning supreme, I'm selling all my audio gear and buying a boat.  Now I'm obviously at risk here for NOT naming the GE as the worst, but that's a far cry from naming it the best.  And if it ends up sounding the best, it's obviously time for me to pick a new money pit hobby.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 22, 2019)

bcowen said:


> If the GE ends up reigning supreme, I'm selling all my audio gear and buying a boat.  Now I'm obviously at risk here for NOT naming the GE as the worst, but that's a far cry from naming it the best.  And if it ends up sounding the best, it's obviously time for me to pick a new money pit hobby.



Regardless of the outcome, it has been a fun project and without doing it, I would not have learned that there are some GE 6SN7 tubes out there built by Sylvania or that if you drop sealing wax onto your finger it takes a few weeks for it to heal. 

Hopefully the tubes that were hard to listen to were balanced out by some that were very pleasant for @bcowen

One project ends another begins. Who besides Ripper can name this amp? A hint, this is one of two mono blocks.


----------



## Ripper2860

Things sure are quiet around here.  I though for sure @bcowen would be giving us updates between attempts at sneaking a peek inside the Houdini Sonic Emasculation Torture Tubes.  Oh, yeah -- The Bachelorette is on tonight.  Never mind.


----------



## TK16 (Jul 22, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Things sure are quiet around here.  I though for sure @bcowen would be giving us updates between attempts at sneaking a peek inside the Houdini Sonic Emasculation Torture Tubes.  Oh, yeah -- The Bachelorette is on tonight.  Never mind.


At the ER with @bcowen . Seems he auditioned the GE tube today,  and is currently getting a blood transfusion due to reddish liquid coming out of his ears.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 23, 2019)

I must have listened to ten GE tubes before arriving at the perfect one. Now what Bill has to figure out is, would I put the best or the worst in this group or aim for something in the middle? Would I put that tube at number one or number eight because logically that might be the last place you would think it might appear?  What if I felt so certain one of the tubes would show a failure that I put the GE tube in the alternate spot for Bill to put into play later and suspect it the least?


This is the time to sow seeds of doubt


 Bill should have an answer soon and I bet he will have a lot to say when he does answer.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> Bill should have an answer soon and I bet he will have a lot to say when he does answer.



What?  You mean more-so than usual?


----------



## Paladin79

Oh heck yes, this will be Bill’s chance to shine! His 15 minutes of fame if you will.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 23, 2019)

Seems a bit unfair.  15 minutes of FAME vs weeks, months, and maybe even years of SHAME.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Seems a bit unfair.  15 minutes of FAME vs weeks, months, and maybe even years of SHAME.



It will either be fame or infamy. I imagine he will lean strongly in one direction or the other.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Now what Bill has to figure out is, would I put the best or the worst in this group or aim for something in the middle?



That part isn't hard to figure out.  



Paladin79 said:


> Would I put that tube at number one or number eight because logically that might be the last place you would think it might appear?



That part _can't _be figured out (by me), but is pretty much irrelevant anyway.



Paladin79 said:


> What if I felt so certain one of the tubes would show a failure that I put the GE tube in the alternate spot for Bill to put into play later and suspect it the least?



The alternate (#9) is not a GE. It's actually a pretty nice sounding tube, though not my favorite of the group.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> One project ends another begins. Who besides Ripper can name this amp? A hint, this is one of two mono blocks.



Judging by the heat sinks (which I'm guessing are mirrored on the other side) it's a full Class A solid state amp, maybe a Pass?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Judging by the heat sinks (which I'm guessing are mirrored on the other side) it's a full Class A solid state amp, maybe a Pass?



Very good, that is my take on a Pass amp camp amp, solid state, Class A. Each side is technically one channel but I will be bridging them for more power out. I am also going to be using XLR inputs and making a few more tweaks before I am done.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That part isn't hard to figure out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Yeah I could not run the risk of one of the other tubes not failing. I had to include the GE in the eight.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Very good, that is my take on a Pass amp camp amp, solid state, Class A. Each side is technically one channel but I will be bridging them for more power out. I am also going to be using XLR inputs and making a few more tweaks before I am done.



You know I have tubes built into my DNA somewhere, but if I _had_ to go to a solid state amp for some reason the Pass amps are where I'd start.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You know I have tubes built into my DNA somewhere, but if I _had_ to go to a solid state amp for some reason the Pass amps are where I'd start.



Well I was trying to lend you a headphone amp designed by the Pass pre-amp specialist, Wayne Colburn.   Mine is also in the lagoon blue, in the event I do not get the impedance problem worked out for you properly.


https://diyaudiostore.com/products/whammy


I listen to some solid state outdoors just because some of the tube model DAPS can be pretty pricey for what you get.


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> Well I was trying to lend you a headphone amp designed by the Pass pre-amp specialist, Wayne Colburn.   Mine is also in the lagoon blue, in the event I do not get the impedance problem worked out for you properly.
> 
> https://diyaudiostore.com/products/whammy
> 
> ...


Can I make a suggestion? Please don't take any more pictures with your bare feet showing your awful case of gangrene in the toes. Try eating after looking at your picture.


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> Can I make a suggestion? Please don't take any more pictures with your bare feet showing your awful case of gangrene in the toes. Try eating after looking at your picture.


You are insulting a pair of Croc's, there are no bare feet but no doubt you were joking.


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> You are insulting a pair of Croc's, there are no bare feet but no doubt you were joking.


100% sure? As I do not use.


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> 100% sure? As I do not use.



one can only hope.


----------



## Ripper2860

TK16 said:


> 100% sure? As I do not use.



Well, you can't say that anymore...


----------



## TK16 (Jul 23, 2019)

Came across of this quad of Heerlen ECC88 D-getters 1958 vintage, advertised wrongly at 1968. Not bad. Excellent testing.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-6DJ8-ECC88-Bugle-Boy-Tubes-Test-Great-1968/254306779241
Bought them.


----------



## Ripper2860

Great deal on an over-rated tube.


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> Great deal on an over-rated tube.


D-getters are a different animal, the o getters I had were indeed mediocre.


----------



## bcowen

OK, so the listening is done and the results are in and have been communicated to the creator.  Anybody interested in knowing who won?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> OK, so the listening is done and the results are in and have been communicated to the creator.  Anybody interested in knowing who won?


 Go ahead with it please and I will try to post the answers soon after.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> OK, so the listening is done and the results are in and have been communicated to the creator.  Anybody interested in knowing who won?


Okay....the suspense is killing me...


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> OK, so the listening is done and the results are in and have been communicated to the creator.  Anybody interested in knowing who won?


Mildly.


----------



## bcowen (Jul 23, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Go ahead with it please and I will try to post the answers soon after.



OK. Here's the official skinny:  Tom won.  The tube I picked as the GE was actually...…..a Melz.  Go figure. It was the ear bleeder and first tube I tried. I put it back in several times later on just to see if my initial impression was wrong, but I just couldn't listen to if for more than 30 seconds without my ears hurting. Why? I don't know. Melz are not known for being ear bleeders.  I had some holey plate versions before that didn't do that, and have some non-holey plates still at hand that don't do that. But that tube didn't get a lot of play time due to the pain inflicted.  I was going to say maybe it's break-in related, but then remembered Tom might read this.   Doesn't matter...I picked the wrong tube regardless.  I did correctly identify the GE as the 2nd worst sounding. Surprisingly it was not an ear bleeder, but was just a dull, boring, and lifeless sounding tube.  Definition of 'meh.' Sounded like you were in the very back row of a large concert hall and every seat in front of you was occupied by Weight Watchers members in their first week of the program.  So, although I lost the contest fair and square, the GE still sucks.   

I got the Foton right, missed on the KenRad and RCA, neither of which I have, but both at the top of the list of my favorites of this group. Surprisingly as well, I did not correctly identify the Frankie.  Very strange, as I popped my Lansdale in several times during the test just to keep my bearings, and the "test" Frankentube doesn't sound anything like mine.  Tom may not have used a genuine Frankie (he was depending on info from @Ripper2860 which would explain that)   There's a substantial sonic difference in a true Frankie and a 'not exactly.'  We're still investigating and discussing this one. Doesn't change the outcome of the contest, was just surprising. 

So congrats, Tom!  And more importantly, thanks for taking the time (and the expense) of putting all this together. A good learning experience, even for lifelong tubeheads like myself.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 23, 2019)

1. Melz 6H8C 1956 (Russian)
2. Sylvania 7N7 tall body (what Bill calls the Frankie) Not a Frankie after all just a tall body
3. GE 6SN7GTB
4. RCA 6sn7GT grey glass
5. Ken-Rad VT-231 Black Glass
6. Electro Harmonix 6SN7 (Russian)
7. Foton 1954 ribbed plates 6H8C (another Bill favorite) (Russian)
8. Sylvania VT-231 (bad boy)

9. This tube is an alternate and only available in case a tube fails Westinghouse 6SN7

Here is the official list of the tubes used. Bill was very close and only the Melz through him off. Now the amazing part of that story is all tubes were tested on the same equipment, and listened to by myself and a group of audiophiles. I had four of the Melz of that type and they were rated fairly highly by the group, only beat out by the RCA Grey glass to the best of my recollection. I chose the one out of the four with the best emission and balance. While all tubes between brands never test quite the same a lot of time went into their selection. The GE tested above the Electro Harmonix in the group and even did well against some other tubes that will remain nameless at this time.

As you can probably see by this list, there were some very good candidates, I tried to give Bill some clear choices and at least one that was marginal. He was a gentleman throughout this ordeal and I commend his efforts. If you are in the states and would like to check out these tubes and see how you do, Bill will change the numbers around so they do not correspond with what you see here and he will send them on to the next person.

The 7N7 tall body did not make a difference in the outcome of this and I do believe the term Frankie is of Bills invention but I could be wrong. I purposely put that tube and the Foton in the group because Bill knows them well.

The setup was pretty experimental so it could be the Melz could not take the strain of being confined or some of that great Russian solder gave way in the pins.  I do not recall if I replaced the solder in said tube.

He got the Bad Boy right by the way as far as identification of other tubes.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 23, 2019)

bcowen said:


> (he was depending on info from @Ripper2860 which would explain that)



I beg to differ.  I was not consulted regarding the 'Frankie'.  The extent of my consultation was whether Bill would make good on the deal when he lost.  To which I responded...







BTW -- the Lansdale is a 'SuperFrankie', so it's not a fair comparison.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 23, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> I beg to differ.  I was not consulted regarding the 'Frankie'.  The extent of my consultation was whether Bill would make good on the deal if he lost.  To which I responded...



The purported Frankie was one both of us saw on Ebay but the getter flash did not go that far down the tube. Internal pars were quite visible, we discussed it at the time after i owned it but I think I was a little in the dark on just how rounded the bottom mica needed to be. I will try to find the photos I took the night I received it but i know the extent of the chrome top caused you to stay away from it.

A photo of the tall body 7n7 above, I never thought twice about it and had it in with some other 7n7's but those being very old tubes, this one had about the best emission other than me breaking up a set of Lansdales for the study.

In my estimation the tubes Bill liked most were 4,7, and 8 so there is little doubt he likes the Foton and that grey glass RCA is one of my favorite tubes as is the Sylvania VT 231.   One more quick note, the Melz was not a true 1578 and I did not list it as such, at the time I had several folks asking for those tubes so I did not want to commit one to this study.


----------



## TK16

If anyone is interested, going to put those D-getter ECC88 in a vice and make some PW out of them. First PM gets, only added a 0 to my price I got per pair. $35 a pair will be $350 a pair.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 23, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> The purported Frankie was one both of us saw on Ebay but the getter flash did not go that far down the tube. Internal pars were quite visible, we discussed it at the time after i owned it but I think I was a little in the dark on just how rounded the bottom mica needed to be. I will try to find the photos I took the night I received it but i know the extent of the chrome top caused you to stay away from it.



If I recall correctly it was rather unique -- similar to a Frankie (Frankimposter) but the flashing did not go far enough down and it had hanging filament-like objects extending below the flashing.  It did not look like an umbrella top mica spacer like the 6SN7W or WGTAs.  If that was the one, it certainly was a unique tube unlike any I'd Sylvie I'd ever seen or own.  I know Frankie and that was no Frankie.  

Or maybe it was anotherf -- hell, I've slept and drank since then!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 23, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> If I recall correctly it was rather unique -- similar to a Frankie (Frankimposter) but the flashing did not go far enough down and it had hanging filament-like objects extending below the flashing which did not look like an umbrella top mica.  If that was the one, it certainly was a unique tube unlike any I'd Sylvie I'd ever seen or own.  I know Frankie and that was no Frankie.



It did not matter in the competition, and I corrected the description. Some of the ones I salvaged were not in this good of shape and I was going by description. You did not have the tube in front of you and I do recall you saying you had not seen one like that before and you nearly bid on it yourself but it is neither here nor there. The group that listened to it put it up there with any 7N7 I have so I included it because of emission.

Before sealing some of those up I kept thinking there were some I did not want to be without for several months so I held back 1578's etc. I have multiples of some black and grey glass and they are not paired up so I figured I could be without them a bit. I am running four 1578's in the Freya.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Ripper2860 said:


> If I recall correctly it was rather unique -- similar to a Frankie (Frankimposter) but the flashing did not go far enough down and it had hanging filament-like objects extending below the flashing.  It did not look like an umbrella top mica spacer like the 6SN7W or WGTAs.  If that was the one, it certainly was a unique tube unlike any I'd Sylvie I'd ever seen or own.  I know Frankie and that was no Frankie.
> 
> Or maybe it was anotherf -- hell, I've slept and drank since then!!


Just a moment.... Do I interpret the above post as a @Ripper2860 defense of @bcowen????!!!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 23, 2019)

KoshNaranek said:


> Just a moment.... Do I interpret the above post as a @Ripper2860 defense of @bcowen????!!!!



Doubtful. I got some of my information second hand on the Frankies and as best I can tell Bill is the resident expert on those. Now Sylvania naughty girls I know well but I change the information any time someone asks so hard telling what misconceptions are out there. 

Oh also I should state that both Ripper and Old Deaf Donkey had copies of my tube list before Bill announced his choices. Bill does need to get some RCA grey glass though, I have had a black glass but it did not impress me as much as other tubes.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 23, 2019)

Well, suffice it to say that this was a great idea and fun for all of us that were following it and taking pot-shots at Bill.  Thanks to Tom for putting this together and devoting the time, effort, and $$ to make it happen.  Thanks to Bill for accepting the the challenge and devoting the time and effort to seriously engage in the process.  While Bill did not win the contest, he certainly has proven himself a great sport!!  Kudos to both of you!!


----------



## Ripper2860

KoshNaranek said:


> Just a moment.... Do I interpret the above post as a @Ripper2860 defense of @bcowen????!!!!



Yes.. I really must stop posting while drinking.  I get all sentimental and schiit.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, suffice it to say that this was a great idea and fun for all of us that were following it and taking pot-shots at Bill.  Thanks to Tom for putting this together and devoting the time, effort, and $$ to make it happen.  Thanks to Bill for accepting the the challenge and devoting the time and effort to seriously engage in the process.  While Bill did not win the contest, he certainly has proven himself a great sport!!  Kudos to both of you!!



Truth be told I probably had the equivalent of five steak dinners in tubes I bought only to find out that Sylvania made a certain Bendix etc. I even told friends who sell tubes what I was doing and they still sent me renamed brands lol.  I just hope to get all tubes back one day and do not open them to find Bill has purchased more GE tubes and replaced my originals. The GE used was fairly modern since it was a GTB but i did not want to run the risk of sneaking a Sylvania or Ken-Rad in on Bill. I must also say that I used some really talented people to help, but none of them could have done what Bill did and gone in blind and given the information that he gave so I am truly impressed by his abilities.


----------



## Ripper2860

There's no denying that Bill is a 'Tube Whisperer!!'


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 23, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> There's no denying that Bill is a 'Tube Whisperer!!'



I considered offering Bill double or nothing if he picked wrong but he gave me every indication that if it was not tube one, it was tube three, the GE and it is against my nature to walk into a bet that is already lost. His second pick would have been spot on.

While I am going to do the steak dinner and BIG bottle of wine  I will make every effort to send Bill a nice grey glass RCA for offering the steak in the first place.


----------



## Ripper2860

Tom -- you are a real gentleman and scholar!!


----------



## TK16

If it is not obvious to everyone, I'll explain @bcowen disappearance from this thread tonight. Obviously he is spending all his free time listening to the now confirmed GE tube.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jul 24, 2019)

bcowen said:


> OK. Here's the official skinny:  Tom won.  The tube I picked as the GE was actually...…..a Melz.  Go figure. It was the ear bleeder and first tube I tried. I put it back in several times later on just to see if my initial impression was wrong, but I just couldn't listen to if for more than 30 seconds without my ears hurting. Why? I don't know. Melz are not known for being ear bleeders.  I had some holey plate versions before that didn't do that, and have some non-holey plates still at hand that don't do that. But that tube didn't get a lot of play time due to the pain inflicted.  I was going to say maybe it's break-in related, but then remembered Tom might read this.   Doesn't matter...I picked the wrong tube regardless.  I did correctly identify the GE as the 2nd worst sounding. Surprisingly it was not an ear bleeder, but was just a dull, boring, and lifeless sounding tube.  Definition of 'meh.' Sounded like you were in the very back row of a large concert hall and every seat in front of you was occupied by Weight Watchers members in their first week of the program.  So, although I lost the contest fair and square, the GE still sucks.
> 
> I got the Foton right, missed on the KenRad and RCA, neither of which I have, but both at the top of the list of my favorites of this group. Surprisingly as well, I did not correctly identify the Frankie.  Very strange, as I popped my Lansdale in several times during the test just to keep my bearings, and the "test" Frankentube doesn't sound anything like mine.  Tom may not have used a genuine Frankie (he was depending on info from @Ripper2860 which would explain that)   There's a substantial sonic difference in a true Frankie and a 'not exactly.'  We're still investigating and discussing this one. Doesn't change the outcome of the contest, was just surprising.
> 
> So congrats, Tom!  And more importantly, thanks for taking the time (and the expense) of putting all this together. A good learning experience, even for lifelong tubeheads like myself.



Congratulations to @bcowen on his awesome abilities to identify tubes by their sound. A contest is a contest and rules are rules, but in my view your results are excellent. You also proved your point, and now I am proud to only have 1 GE tube (a 5670), and will not ever consider acquiring more of this brand!

Many thanks to @Paladin79 for investing thought, expertise, time and $$$ in setting up the contest. This has been a major effort and a great fun for me to follow it - and an opportunity to learn something.

I do have one used RCA grey glass which I picked up for peanuts, and I like it very much. I just bought 5 more used ones for only $90. I also have 2 new true Frankies made by Lansdale Tube Co., and they do sound great, just occasionally for my deaf ears something is lacking very slightly in the depth of the bass of some of the recordings on one of the tubes - or maybe I imagine it. Foton ribbed plate 1951 is in the mail, struggling its way from Ukraine, and I still have to find a Ken-Rad black glass for a price that does not hurt. So this tube list has been very relevant to me.

Thank you both once again. Enjoy the steak and claret!


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Congratulations to @bcowen on his awesome abilities to identify tubes by their sound. A contest is a contest and rules are rules, but in my view your results are excellent. You also proved your point, and now I am proud to only have 1 GE tube (a 5670), and will not ever consider acquiring more of this brand!
> 
> Many thanks to @Paladin79 for investing thought, expertise, time and $$$ in setting up the contest. This has been a major effort and a great fun for me to follow it - and an opportunity to learn something.
> 
> ...



ODD you have some very good tubes on the way and thank you for the kind words. In Bill's descriptions of the tubes he sent me, he said this about the GE..

"If not the GE, then probably a run-of-the-mill Sylvania chrome dome or late RCA."

In order to make this more fair, I tried to use cream of the crop RCA and Sylvania. I need to check out the Melz I used cause that tested very well here. It was not a 1578 but fairly close IMHO. I do not know Electro-Harmonix that well but it was the one clinker in my opinion, the one tube at the end that might cause Bill to flip a coin. It did come down to just a couple tubes for Bill, just not the two I expected.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> 1. Melz 6H8C 1956 (Russian)
> 2. Sylvania 7N7 tall body (what Bill calls the Frankie) Not a Frankie after all just a tall body
> 3. GE 6SN7GTB
> 4. RCA 6sn7GT grey glass
> ...



This was my personal preference rating of the tubes above, inn order of best to worst:

5 (KenRad VT231)
4 (RCA gray glass)
7 (Foton)
8 (Bad Boy)
2 (7N7 Tall bottle...but not a Frankie)
6 (Electro Harmonix)
3 (GE)
1 (Melz)

I was surprised at the first two...they had an involvement and musicality factor that I really liked. I could live happily with any of the 3 of them and not feel like I was ever missing anything. The Bad Boy sounded quite good, but lacked that groove thing the first 3 had in spades. On the 7N7, yes, I was the person that coined the Frankie moniker. I started out with 3 different brands of 7N7's, not knowing at the time they were all made by Sylvania. Then I read in a couple places that the tall bottle versions of this tube sounded better than the short bottles, and the ones I had purchased were all short bottles. I stumbled across the Lansdale 7N7 on Ebay for $5, bought it, and had one of those What moments when I first turned it on. So I a bought a bunch more 7N7's of different brand, configuration, bottle size, date, etc.  I thought if the construction of that Lansdale (made by Sylvania) was so special, maybe there was an even better sounding version out there. But no. I have probably 100 7N7's with lots of different brands and construction, and none get even close to the sonic quality of the particular construction details of the Frankie.  And those details are just as specific as a Bad Boy. It's got to have ALL the _exact_ details, or it's just a tall bottle 7N7 and not a Frankie. Maybe there's an even better sounding version than the Frankie, but I haven't found it if it exists and it's not for lack of trying.  ​


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I beg to differ.  I was not consulted regarding the 'Frankie'.



Had to blame something on you.  Seemed only logical.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> This was my personal preference rating of the tubes above, inn order of best to worst:
> 
> 5 (KenRad VT231)
> 4 (RCA gray glass)
> ...



I may have to look through my tube stash later since you liked the Ken Rad best, they do turn up on occasion and I try to grab them when I can. The grey glass RCA is what got me away from using 12AU7's whatsoever in the BH Crack.


----------



## bcowen

KoshNaranek said:


> Just a moment.... Do I interpret the above post as a @Ripper2860 defense of @bcowen????!!!!



That would be way too strange.  You must have read it wrong.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Truth be told I probably had the equivalent of five steak dinners in tubes I bought only to find out that Sylvania made a certain Bendix etc. I even told friends who sell tubes what I was doing and they still sent me renamed brands lol.  I just hope to get all tubes back one day and do not open them to find Bill has purchased more GE tubes and replaced my originals. The GE used was fairly modern since it was a GTB but i did not want to run the risk of sneaking a Sylvania or Ken-Rad in on Bill. I must also say that I used some really talented people to help, but none of them could have done what Bill did and gone in blind and given the information that he gave so I am truly impressed by his abilities.



Very gracious.  Thank you Tom.

What you put together for these are truly works of art and I seriously wouldn't even think of dismantling them.  I only have a couple GE's anyway, so I'd have to put in Philips ECG's (have a bunch of those).  But if I did that, you'd probably fly down here and kill me, and justifiable homicide would probably hold up quite well in court.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> If it is not obvious to everyone, I'll explain @bcowen disappearance from this thread tonight. Obviously he is spending all his free time listening to the now confirmed GE tube.



No, I'm searching through my stash for some gray glass RCA's.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Tom -- you are a real gentleman and scholar!!



I hate " +1 " posts, but I'm going to do it anyway here.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Congratulations to @bcowen on his awesome abilities to identify tubes by their sound. A contest is a contest and rules are rules, but in my view your results are excellent. You also proved your point, and now I am proud to only have 1 GE tube (a 5670), and will not ever consider acquiring more of this brand!
> 
> Many thanks to @Paladin79 for investing thought, expertise, time and $$$ in setting up the contest. This has been a major effort and a great fun for me to follow it - and an opportunity to learn something.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the kind words, ODD.  The Frankie is not a bass monster. There are tubes that go lower and have more power down low. It just gets the rest of everything right (to my ears).  Be interested in your thoughts on the Foton when you get it. To me, the Fotons have that rhythm and pace thing that just gets your foot tapping. They're not perfect in other areas, but just so fun to listen to. Awesome tubes for rock and roll....maybe not the best for solo vocal, small unamplified ensembles, etc.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I hate " +1 " posts, but I'm going to do it anyway here.



You guys are too kind. Next up for me is to see what 100 hours of burn-in might change on a Foton tube.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I may have to look through my tube stash later since you liked the Ken Rad best, they do turn up on occasion and I try to grab them when I can. The grey glass RCA is what got me away from using 12AU7's whatsoever in the BH Crack.



Honestly, the RCA and the KenRad were a toss up. I have 5 stars beside both of them. And 4.5 stars on the Foton.  Trying to draw half a star was more challenging than I expected.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Thanks for the kind words, ODD.  The Frankie is not a bass monster. There are tubes that go lower and have more power down low. It just gets the rest of everything right (to my ears).  Be interested in your thoughts on the Foton when you get it. To me, the Fotons have that rhythm and pace thing that just gets your foot tapping. They're not perfect in other areas, but just so fun to listen to. Awesome tubes for rock and roll....maybe not the best for solo vocal, small unamplified ensembles, etc.



Because of my test listeners I was having to run a lot of classical music through the tubes, I tend to listen to more solo vocal, classic rock, and un-amplified myself.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Thanks for the kind words, ODD.  The Frankie is not a bass monster. There are tubes that go lower and have more power down low. It just gets the rest of everything right (to my ears).  Be interested in your thoughts on the Foton when you get it. To me, the Fotons have that rhythm and pace thing that just gets your foot tapping. They're not perfect in other areas, but just so fun to listen to. Awesome tubes for rock and roll....maybe not the best for solo vocal, small unamplified ensembles, etc.


I would concur about Fotons. It took a month of Sundays for them to settle in but i enjoy them on the Vali 2. They didn't pair well on VH2.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Because of my test listeners I was having to run a lot of classical music through the tubes, I tend to listen to more solo vocal, classic rock, and un-amplified myself.



I enjoy full symphony type classical music quite a bit. The rest of my diet is usually rock and metal.  Oh, and of course Marilyn Manson, but that has its own category.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I enjoy full symphony type classical music quite a bit. The rest of my diet is usually rock and metal.  Oh, and of course Marilyn Manson, but that has its own category.



In sticking more with the original tube type for the Vali 2 if someone wanted to put together an Ecc88/6922 tube group I would love to check that out sometime.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> I enjoy full symphony type classical music quite a bit.



I don't think this classifies as 'Classical Music' ...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> In sticking more with the original tube type for the Vali 2 if someone wanted to put together an Ecc88/6922 tube group I would love to check that out sometime.



@TK16 probably would, but I don't think he has any 6922 types. I have some Philips ECG's I'll donate to the project if something comes together on this. But if I were you, Tom, I wouldn't be betting a steak dinner on the outcome of that one.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't think this classifies as 'Classical Music' …



Nobody asked you.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 24, 2019)

bcowen said:


> @TK16 probably would, but I don't think he has any 6922 types. I have some Philips ECG's I'll donate to the project if something comes together on this. But if I were you, Tom, I wouldn't be betting a steak dinner on the outcome of that one.  LOL!



Truthfully I hear more difference in tubes in other amps besides the Vali 2 but it is handy and takes up little room. I may have some Electro Harmonix and GE I can donate so we may have the low end covered. 

By the way Bill is a man of his word and has already paid for the steak dinner and his generosity is much appreciated.

NEW YORK STRIP
18 oz. Hand-cut daily in-house!
$36

Caparzo, Rosso di Montalcino
Montalcino, Italy


----------



## TK16 (Jul 24, 2019)

bcowen said:


> @TK16 probably would, but I don't think he has any 6922 types. I have some Philips ECG's I'll donate to the project if something comes together on this. But if I were you, Tom, I wouldn't be betting a steak dinner on the outcome of that one.  LOL!


Only 6922 variants I have are holy grails (don`t think I would want to send those out anywhere). If somebody wants to do an ECC82 project, I got 2 pair RCA 1955 12AU7 other is a 61 RCA clear tops I could donate as I could care less what happens to them.
Also an unopened untested pair of EH 6922 variant got with LP.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Truthfully I hear more difference in tubes in other amps besides the Vali 2 but it is handy and takes up little room. I may have some Electro Harmonix and GE I can donate so we may have the low end covered.
> 
> By the way Bill is a man of his word and has already paid for the steak dinner and his generosity is much appreciated.
> 
> ...



I don't even want to know what that bottle of wine costs. If it doesn't have a screw-off cap, it's out of my league.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> I don't even want to know what that bottle of wine costs. If it doesn't have a screw-off cap, it's out of my league.


Are the wine boxes you put in the fridge still a thing? What about Zima?


----------



## Paladin79

Wine in boxes is still around and Zima attempted a couple comebacks after it was discontinued in 2008.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> On the 7N7, yes, I was the person that coined the Frankie moniker. I started out with 3 different brands of 7N7's, not knowing at the time they were all made by Sylvania. Then I read in a couple places that the tall bottle versions of this tube sounded better than the short bottles, and the ones I had purchased were all short bottles. I stumbled across the Lansdale 7N7 on Ebay for $5, bought it, and had one of those What moments when I first turned it on. So I a bought a bunch more 7N7's of different brand, configuration, bottle size, date, etc.  I thought if the construction of that Lansdale (made by Sylvania) was so special, maybe there was an even better sounding version out there. But no. I have probably 100 7N7's with lots of different brands and construction, and none get even close to the sonic quality of the particular construction details of the Frankie.  And those details are just as specific as a Bad Boy. It's got to have ALL the _exact_ details, or it's just a tall bottle 7N7 and not a Frankie. Maybe there's an even better sounding version than the Frankie, but I haven't found it if it exists and it's not for lack of trying.  ​



So true. The more I listen on the Frankie, the more I like it. Oh well, then I have to purchase a couple of Ken-Rad VT-231 black glass, after all. A daunting thought... except that it is still way cheaper than my beloved Brimar CV1988, what?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 24, 2019)

The black glass Ken-Rad VT-231's I see lately go for about $100 each ball park. That is up some from the last time I bought them.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jul 25, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I don't even want to know what that bottle of wine costs. If it doesn't have a screw-off cap, it's out of my league.


Ah. I thought, the dinner was TOGETHER. Rosso di Montalcino is an excellent wine (as any, also depends on the year of vintage). It merits a short story. I used to teach in Rome, say, 20 year ago, and the head of the course was my friend from Toronto. After the working day, he'd go home for a dinner with his family, and I'd just hang out at one of the bars in Trastevere. Then, around 10pm, he'd come and join me, and we'd sit and shoot bull until midnight, or so. He was a whisky drinker, and I'd sip wine the whole evening. One of those evenings, I went to a bar just behind Santa Maria, and ordered an expensive bottle of Brunello di Montalcino, so that they'd leave me alone for the evening. When my friend arrived, the bottle was empty. So I asked for a glass, and was promptly rejected - no Brunello by glass, signore, scusate. However, they had Rosso di Montalcino, a younger brother of Brunello, and that I could get by glass. Once I got that glass, I almost cried - I liked it so much better, than that heavy Brunello. Ever since, my favourite. And, an excellent choice, congratulations. Look up Caparzo on the map - it is a tiny place, between Montalcino and Siena. To the Rosso, they would occasionally blend a little Merlot (not telling anyone) along with Sangiovese. even 2016 is a pretty good vintage, if you can choose.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Ah. I thought, the dinner was TOGETHER. Rosso di Montalcino is an excellent wine (as any, also depends on the year of vintage). It merits a short story. I used to teach in Rome, say, 20 year ago, and the head of the course was my friend from Toronto. After the working day, he'd go home for a dinner with his family, and I'd just hang out at one of the bars in Trastevere. Then, around 10pm, he'd come and join me, and we'd sit and shoot bull**** until midnight, or so. He was a whisky drinker, and I'd sip wine the whole evening. One of those evenings, I went to a bar just behind Santa Maria, and ordered an expensive bottle of Brunello di Montalcino, so that they'd leave me alone for the evening. When my friend arrived, the bottle was empty. So I asked for a glass, and was promptly rejected - no Brunello by glass, signore, scusate. However, they had Rosso di Montalcino, a younger brother of Brunello, and that I could get by glass. Once I got that glass, I almost cried - I liked it so much better, than that heavy Brunello. Ever since, my favourite. And, an excellent choice, congratulations. Look up Caparzo on the map - it is a tiny place, between Montalcino and Siena. To the Rosso, they would blend some Merlot along with Sangiovese. even 2016 is a pretty good vintage, if you can choose.



It would be tricky for Bill and I to dine together but perhaps one day it will happen.

I hope they have the 2007 but if not then the 2016 is what I will look for and with your recommendation I know I made the right choice. I know I mentioned it earlier but this is a small restaurant in a college town I will be going to but they have excellent steaks and a magnificent wine selection. It is where John Mellencamp took Billy Joel when he visited. The decor is ok, sides are nothing spectacular, but the steaks and wine are incredible. My son spent a month in Tuscany so I know a little about their wines and their love of beef.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> It would be tricky for Bill and I to dine together but perhaps one day it will happen.
> 
> I hope they have the 2007 but if not then the 2016 is what I will look for and with your recommendation I know I made the right choice.


With all due respect, Rosso di Montalcino, as a rule of thumb, keeps well for 8 years. I would not go for anything earlier than 2011 or 2012, but 2016 may have been the best year ever.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 24, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> With all due respect, Rosso di Montalcino, as a rule of thumb, keeps well for 8 years. I would not go for anything earlier than 2011 or 2012, but 2016 may have been the best year ever.



Then the 2016 it shall be if it is available, I bow to your greater knowledge a donkey you are not.

 Notice how I have not asked Bill for wine advice?  Tubes perhaps, although by now I may have a greater knowledge of GE tubes and I will gladly help him there.

Today I have one of the supposed GE 6sn7 tubes arriving that clearly looks like a Sylvania.


----------



## Ripper2860

Go Big or Go Home, I say ...


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Go Big or Go Home, I say ...


Well my daughter may well be joining us, so a standard bottle may not be enough, there should be a couple sizes in between though. No sense injuring the poor waiter who tries to lift that.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah.  I'm a problem solver ...


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Well my daughter may well be joining us, so a standard bottle may not be enough, there should be a couple sizes in between though. No sense injuring the poor waiter who tries to lift that.



Well, wines that age long in bottles are said to age "better" in larger bottles. There's all kind of theories and blind tastings (sic!) to support this. However, with Rosso di Montalcino I would not bother looking for a magnum bottle (although you could probably find a magnum done by Caparzo or Castello Banfi) - it certainly takes more than 10 or even 20 years for the advantage to show. Just get a second bottle once the first one is empty, an so on.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Robert Padgett said:


> @Ripper2860...that sounds almost like an invitation to make a Southern Indiana run...Half-price liquor and Beautiful Women in Bloomington (Summer school, I might add used to be the best time for Coed perusal) Don't forget to get @Paladin79 to show you the Quarries for a cool skinny dip...


Re: quarries. The last time I jumped into a quarry was in Ohio. Deep (>100ft) and *** cold!


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Ripper2860 said:


> I was hoping more like a nice Colt 45 ...


Careful with that booze. Here in Ontario, it's fortified with extra ethanol. BTW - I didn't care for the UK beers. Their cider and scotch-whisky... THAT was a different matter.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Well, wines that age long in bottles are said to age "better" in larger bottles. There's all kind of theories and blind tastings (sic!) to support this. However, with Rosso di Montalcino I would not bother looking for a magnum bottle (although you could probably find a magnum done by Caparzo or Castello Banfi) - it certainly takes more than 10 or even 20 years for the advantage to show. Just get a second bottle once the first one is empty, an so on.



Yeah I was joking about the large bottle since Bill said he would buy a steak and large bottle of wine. I guess he figures quantity over quality lol. 

I believe I read 95% of wine is aged when you buy it and only some of the really high end wines change much in the bottle, most just go down hill.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Are the wine boxes you put in the fridge still a thing? What about Zima?



No, I buy it by the 55 gallon drum now.  The per-ounce price is much cheaper.  But the drum won't fit in the 'fridge...it's a stupid GE refrigerator.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> No, I buy it by the 55 gallon drum now.  The per-ounce price is much cheaper.  But the drum won't fit in the 'fridge...it's a stupid GE refrigerator.


Unrelated but what do you think of this deal? Unbelievable deal imo.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Mullard-...6c0a688c2b2c60fff6027ba|iid:1&redirect=mobile


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Unrelated but what do you think of this deal? Unbelievable deal imo.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Mullard-12AU7-ECC82-tubes-long-plate-square-getter/293162784562?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=9b3a0ccac16145a091a78c85345f58f8&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&sd=113788909137&itm=293162784562&pg=2481888&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:70777a2f-ae6c-11e9-a699-74dbd180e140|parentrq:265babec16c0a688c2b2c60fff6027ba|iid:1&redirect=mobile



Great deal if dead and unbalanced tubes are your thing.  Probably still sound better than G.....oh hell, I'll leave it alone.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Ah. I thought, the dinner was TOGETHER.



That would have been great and hopefully we'll get to meet and have dinner one of these days. But I wasn't going to hold out on settling up until that happens...may be a while.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Great deal if dead and unbalanced tubes are your thing.  Probably still sound better than G.....oh hell, I'll leave it alone.


Probably great sounding before 100,000 hours were put on them.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Probably great sounding before 100,000 hours were put on them.



Or even 10k.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Or even 10k.


Maybe I'll snag them then sell them for a profit here to members without tube testers and/or legally deaf.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Maybe I'll snag them then sell them for a profit here to members without tube testers and/or legally deaf.



Good idea.  I was going to suggest @Ripper2860 as your first customer, but he only meets half the demographic criteria...he has a tube tester.


----------



## Robert Padgett (Jul 24, 2019)

TK16 said:


> Unrelated but what do you think of this deal? Unbelievable deal imo.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Mullard-12AU7-ECC82-tubes-long-plate-square-getter/293162784562?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=9b3a0ccac16145a091a78c85345f58f8&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&sd=113788909137&itm=293162784562&pg=2481888&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:70777a2f-ae6c-11e9-a699-74dbd180e140|parentrq:265babec16c0a688c2b2c60fff6027ba|iid:1&redirect=mobile


"_I am selling 8 used Mullard 12AU7 ECC82 tubes. Date code are all K61. This is long plate tubes with square getter. All tubes tested on my Western Electric KS-5727_L1 with no shorts. Most tubes are measure weak. Tube measures 800/1350, 1450/1950, 500/1400, 200/800, 950/1200, 500/600, 600/950 and 200/650 where minimum for this tube is 1385. New tube is about 2200. Sold as-is for experiment or display only. No return._"

"Unbelievable deal imo"


----------



## TK16

Robert Padgett said:


> I am selling 8 used Mullard 12AU7 ECC82 tubes. Date code are all K61. This is long plate tubes with square getter. All tubes tested on my Western Electric KS-5727_L1 with no shorts. Most tubes are measure weak. Tube measures 800/1350, 1450/1950, 500/1400, 200/800, 950/1200, 500/600, 600/950 and 200/650 where minimum for this tube is 1385. New tube is about 2200. Sold as-is for experiment or display only. No return.


Wow your the seller? Small world!


----------



## Robert Padgett (Jul 24, 2019)

TK16 said:


> Wow your the seller? Small world!


No I just quoted why they are so cheap, which I was editing whilst you were replying...

I looked at the description, although they are in weak shape, they may sound great for a few more hours...


No harm No foul no demerits


----------



## Ripper2860

TK16 said:


> Maybe I'll snag them then sell them for a profit here to members without tube testers and/or legally deaf.



I resemble that remark.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 24, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Good idea.  I was going to suggest @Ripper2860 as your first customer, but he only meets half the demographic criteria...he has a tube tester.


 
Fooled me once -- shame on you.  Fooled me twice ...


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jul 25, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> That is an interesting question. Personally I like to use two separate control pots whenever possible, and not balance controls. I have an extra project box, I may just make one up and send you a drawing.
> 
> I have some excellent single gang Alps stepped pots that are hard to come by, when they became available a couple friends and I bought multiples. Since the signal would be passing through such a box, VU meters might be in order as well.



I have thought of the following solution: what if I get 2 Schiit SYS and use one for each channel? I can even add a Loki to one channel to try and compensate for the frequency loss on my left ear? I will not manage to do the box with two Alps pots, voltmeters, and headphone ins and outs myself anyway, not enough skills. Or maybe i should try?
EDIT: or, buy something like this? https://www.parts-express.com/pyle-...graphic-equalizer--248-4558#lblProductDetails


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> Great deal if dead and unbalanced tubes are your thing.  Probably still sound better than G.....oh hell, I'll leave it alone.


A hundred and twenty bucks?! USD. Am I missing something? The tubes have a sickly brown colour. And the owner claims they tested as 'weak'. Would they be used as stage props? @bcowen , semi-serious question: can dying tubes like this be reconditioned?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 25, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I have thought of the following solution: what if I get 2 Schiit SYS and use one for each channel? I can even add a Loki to one channel to try and compensate for the frequency loss on my left ear? I will not manage to do the box with two Alps pots, voltmeters, and headphone ins and outs myself anyway, not enough skills. Or maybe i should try?
> EDIT: or, buy something like this? https://www.parts-express.com/pyle-...graphic-equalizer--248-4558#lblProductDetails



Let me search around when I get time, there may be a solution that does not require so much circuitry to be added. There is some knowledge and equipment I take for granted when I think about building such a box and I am not so sure I could readily convey everything you would have to be able to think through to build such a thing yourself. I will look around my shop, I have a small mixer board there I do not use much and it would certainly do what you are seeking, i could get it to one of the people who might visit and make you a gift of it but I want to check it out more first.

Bill was right the other day, go figure, but the less you add to the circuit the better. I am more apt to open a device, remove the dual ganged pot and put in two single ganged of the same value, that is the simplest way I can think of without changing the circuit.


----------



## Paladin79

ScubaMan2017 said:


> A hundred and twenty bucks?! USD. Am I missing something? The tubes have a sickly brown colour. And the owner claims they tested as 'weak'. Would they be used as stage props? @bcowen , semi-serious question: can dying tubes like this be reconditioned?



Somewhere in my shop I do have a tube rejuvenator but unfortunately it is for CRT tubes that used to be used in televisions and computer monitors.  If such an item existed and if it were feasible, folks would have been using them on 300B's, RCA black glass tubes, etc. for some time now and it just does not happen. A receiving tube is kind of like a fuse, once it is gone it is gone.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Paladin79 said:


> Let me search around when I get time, there may be a solution that does not require so much circuitry to be added. There is some knowledge and equipment I take for granted when I think about building such a box and I am not so sure I could readily convey everything you would have to be able to think through to build such a thing yourself. I will look around my shop, I have a small mixer board there I do not use much and it would certainly do what you are seeking, i could get it to one of the people who might visit and make you a gift of it but I want to check it out more first.


Okay, now THIS looks interesting. It appears you're making a pre-amp out of several SYS and VALI units. Keep us in the loop, eh.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 25, 2019)

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Okay, now THIS looks interesting. It appears you're making a pre-amp out of several SYS and VALI units. Keep us in the loop, eh.



It is not that interesting honest lol, this is more like just trying to add separate volume controls for each channel. It should be done with the smallest amount of components you can get away with.

https://www.tecnec.com/product/ez-mx4l/rdl-ez-mx4l-4x1-stereo-line-level-audio-mixer?EZ-MX4L&bs

Maybe something like this only you would run one channel to one input and the second to another, use the control pots to control each and you have a mixed line out. At least those are my thoughts after looking at it for all of twenty seconds.

I have a mixer somewhere in my shop, I will experiment with it. I am not sure of the quality compared to what you are currently listening to so that is why I considered doing this with some really good separate, stepped Alps pots.

https://www.tecnec.com/product/mx22s/rolls-mx22s-mini-mix-2-channel-line-mixer?MX22S&bs

Maybe even this, see if you have any way at all to send one channel to channel one, and the other to channel two, you have pots for each channel, and volume control for each. I am not crazy about the ideal but it would probably work and keep you from buying multiple devices lol. It will not change frequency response but I have never been a huge fan of equalizers, that is just me.

https://www.tecnec.com/product/art-...ro-channel-level-converter?ART-CLEANBOXPRO&bs

This device is really interesting and adjust output levels, I may have to buy one to play with and I will let you know what I think.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> No I just quoted why they are so cheap, which I was editing whilst you were replying...
> 
> I looked at the description, although they are in weak shape, they may sound great for a few more hours...
> 
> ...



You never know for sure when @TK16 is joking or being serious.  But you can pretty well figure out when he links some crap tubes it's a joke.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I have thought of the following solution: what if I get 2 Schiit SYS and use one for each channel? I can even add a Loki to one channel to try and compensate for the frequency loss on my left ear? I will not manage to do the box with two Alps pots, voltmeters, and headphone ins and outs myself anyway, not enough skills. Or maybe i should try?
> EDIT: or, buy something like this? https://www.parts-express.com/pyle-...graphic-equalizer--248-4558#lblProductDetails



My experience with cheap equalizers is they will muck up the sound far more than anything they might help with.  The Loki is the first inexpensive equalizer (or tone control) I've tried that doesn't seem to screw things up -- with all pots in the 12:00 (or neutral) position I can't tell any difference with it switched in or out of the circuit.  Just my opinion...I don't have a lot of experience to recite here other than playing with some cheapie units before.


----------



## bcowen (Jul 25, 2019)

ScubaMan2017 said:


> A hundred and twenty bucks?! USD. Am I missing something? The tubes have a sickly brown colour. And the owner claims they tested as 'weak'. Would they be used as stage props? @bcowen , semi-serious question: can dying tubes like this be reconditioned?



Yeah, those tubes are too nasty looking even for display purposes. 

Tubes that work by cathode emission (like all the tubes we use in audio) cannot be reconditioned. Once the cathode coating is depleted, it's depleted...there's no way to revitalize it or recondition it. Now I understand that CRT tubes (like those used in older TV's) can be reconditioned to some extent...but I am totally unfamiliar with that and/or how it works.

Edit: ooops...looks like Tom already answered this.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill was right the other day...



This has happened once before too. Can't remember the date exactly, but it DID happen, I promise.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> This has happened once before too. Can't remember the date exactly, but it DID happen, I promise.



While I would love to continue to chat about tubes and separate volume pots there are some serious things going on with me today, so I must focus my attention there. Home grown tomatoes are now ripe so I need to turn my talents to Caprese salad. Quality balsamic and olive oil, with capers.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> While I would love to continue to chat about tubes and separate volume pots there are some serious things going on with me today, so I must focus my attention there. Home grown tomatoes are now ripe so I need to turn my talents to Caprese salad. Quality balsamic and olive oil, with capers.



Home grown tomatoes were created by our maker to go with bacon and lettuce between 2 slices of oat grain bread.   

Store bought tomatoes aren't really tomatoes -- they are wax museum replicas.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 25, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Home grown tomatoes were created by our maker to go with bacon and lettuce between 2 slices of oat grain bread.
> 
> Store bought tomatoes aren't really tomatoes -- they are wax museum replicas.



I enjoy that as well but fresh basil, quality olive oil and a well aged balsamic from Modena Italy and I am happy as well. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=hom...rome..69i57.5369j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I am getting way off subject so I will mention the tube I received last night marked as GE  was a black plate Sylvania staggered plates, while I got it for $10 it was nothing special. An ok price I guess but not a bad boy by any means.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> You never know for sure when @TK16 is joking or being serious.  But you can pretty well figure out when he links some crap tubes it's a joke.


If at least 63% of users vote for me to use emojies (sp?), there would be at least a 5% chance I would do it.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> It is not that interesting honest lol, this is more like just trying to add separate volume controls for each channel. It should be done with the smallest amount of components you can get away with.
> 
> https://www.tecnec.com/product/ez-mx4l/rdl-ez-mx4l-4x1-stereo-line-level-audio-mixer?EZ-MX4L&bs
> 
> ...





bcowen said:


> My experience with cheap equalizers is they will muck up the sound far more than anything they might help with.  The Loki is the first inexpensive equalizer (or tone control) I've tried that doesn't seem to screw things up -- with all pots in the 12:00 (or neutral) position I can't tell any difference with it switched in or out of the circuit.  Just my opinion...I don't have a lot of experience to recite here other than playing with some cheapie units before.


God sent me an angel of the Common Sense today who said: Donkey. If you think an equalizer and balance controls will help you surmount your deafness, why don't you try the software equalization first to see if it makes any difference?


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> God sent me an angel of the Common Sense today who said: Donkey. If you think an equalizer and balance controls will help you surmount your deafness, why don't you try the software equalization first to see if it makes any difference?



That sounds like a good plan.


----------



## Keno18

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> God sent me an angel of the Common Sense today who said: Donkey. If you think an equalizer and balance controls will help you surmount your deafness, why don't you try the software equalization first to see if it makes any difference?


If you like I can give you some advice on what to use as I just set up my own system to solve my own severe hearing deficit in both ears. I use both a software and hardware combination on my windows laptop using foobar2000.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Keno18 said:


> If you like I can give you some advice on what to use as I just set up my own system to solve my own severe hearing deficit in both ears. I use both a software and hardware combination on my windows laptop using foobar2000.


I would appreciate that very highly. So many thanks. Just drop me a private message if you prefer so.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 25, 2019)

I just got a Tung Sol mouse ears I wish I had included in the 6sn7 challenge, but I imagine Bill knows their profile. I am cooking a tube in the Vali so I popped this in a BH Crack and the bass is more amazing that some of my past mouse ears, this one reads like NOS so that may be the big difference.

Listening to Lake Street Dive, I Want you Back. A favorite test track.

Rachael Price lead.

I put the same track through dual Class A solid state amps, and even with a tube buffer pre-amp it just sounds so flat compared to tubes. Accurate but dull.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I just got a Tung Sol mouse ears I wish I had included in the 6sn7 challenge, but I imagine Bill knows their profile. I am cooking a tube in the Vali so I popped this in a BH Crack and the bass is more amazing that some of my past mouse ears, this one reads like NOS so that may be the big difference.
> 
> Listening to Lake Street Dive, I Want you Back. A favorite test track.
> 
> ...



I have one Mouse Ear that I got from Brent Jesse. Measures just above minimum. Didn't float my boat, but that could well be because it's pretty much worn out. I should try and pick up another that measures at NOS values. 

And I'm with you on the solid state. Not suggesting they don't exist, I've just never heard a SS amp that gets into the harmonic depth and overtones that come with tubes.


----------



## TK16 (Jul 25, 2019)

22 minutes left on this obviously NOS NIB pair ECC82 with extra straight pins, I'll pass on these for a horribly used bent pin version instead.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-1-pair...ge-Tube-holland-bugle-boy-vacuum/133116032373

And I found my dream pair here.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-5-a-Pa...2-bugle-boy-vacuum-tubes-England/133116046407


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 25, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I have one Mouse Ear that I got from Brent Jesse. Measures just above minimum. Didn't float my boat, but that could well be because it's pretty much worn out. I should try and pick up another that measures at NOS values.
> 
> And I'm with you on the solid state. Not suggesting they don't exist, I've just never heard a SS amp that gets into the harmonic depth and overtones that come with tubes.



I mentioned our tube experiment to the gentleman who sold me the Mouse Ears, he loved the idea but unfortunately he does not have an amp that takes a single 6sn7 or he would love to try it himself. I got a few GE's and a few other tubes from him. He lives out in Maryland near my son so I may meet up with him sometime and go through  his tube "farm" as he calls it.

Unless we have some takers here in the states go ahead and send the tubes back to me, eventually Ripper and Itsallinmyhead will have some free time to check them out. I am curious to see what is up with the Melz tube anyway and I might just replace it with one more representative.

I was suitably unimpressed with other mouse ears but not this one. Some more listening is in order though. It is funny how that works sometimes but we are often dealing with product that is as old as the lint in @bcowen's navel.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> 22 minutes left on this obviously NOS NIB pair ECC82 with extra straight pins, I'll pass on these for a horribly used bent pin version instead.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-1-pair...ge-Tube-holland-bugle-boy-vacuum/133116032373
> 
> And I found my dream pair here.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-5-a-Pa...2-bugle-boy-vacuum-tubes-England/133116046407



Huh?  You didn't snatch those up? I mean the carpet was awesome...I don't get it.


----------



## Paladin79

Ok I am still burning in a Foton tube, I have a hard time letting something like that run round the clock out in my shop so I am doing this in stages. This is taking like hours!!!!!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Unless we have some takers here in the states go ahead and send the tubes back to me, eventually Ripper and Itsallinmyhead will have some free time to check them out. I am curious to see what is up with the Melz tube anyway and I might just replace it with one more representative.



OK, I'll get them on the way back to you. As luck would have it, my sister and bro' in law are going to be here Sunday. They live in Kansas City but coming through Charlotte and planned a long layover to visit for a while.  My bro' in law is a career GE guy...first job out of college. He's been a jet engine engineer the whole time, and whenever I make a snide comment about GE his usual retort is to ask how many times one of his engines has failed in a plane I've been in.  He's not an audio guy and I doubt he'd be able to tell the difference between a GE tube and a Sylvania light bulb, but that won't stop me from taunting him. 



Paladin79 said:


> …. that is as old as the lint in @bcowen's navel.



You realize that's been there since before dirt was invented, right?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This is taking like hours!!!!!!



Like 100?  LOL!!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Like 100?  LOL!!


Practically forever!!!


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Huh?  You didn't snatch those up? I mean the carpet was awesome...I don't get it.


Almost did, BUT I found the description laughable.

"Amperex 12AU7/ ECC82 Vintage Tube. Shipped with USPS First Class Package.
I have lots and lots of tubes, i place on my tube checker, once it is in green good section i say tested good. I do not have exact numbers for you, all working pulls"

Took all that time testing multiple sets and no testing numbers. Tested good as you know can be minimum.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Almost did, BUT I found the description laughable.
> 
> "Amperex 12AU7/ ECC82 Vintage Tube. Shipped with USPS First Class Package.
> I have lots and lots of tubes, i place on my tube checker, once it is in green good section i say tested good. I do not have exact numbers for you, all working pulls"
> ...



Means he has a cheap emission tester that probably hasn't been touched or calibrated since it left the factory 50 years ago.  That falls into the "why bother" routine.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Means he has a cheap emission tester that probably hasn't been touched or calibrated since it left the factory 50 years ago.  That falls into the "why bother" routine.


Visually not a single listing would I even consider from that seller. Bunch of ugly ass tubes. 

Posted this in the Lyr thread.

Got a real cheap quad here, $70 with PM shipping. Though 1 tube tests way worse than the other 3. Anybody have a single Amperex BB ECC88 1958 D getter they want to get rid of?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-6DJ8-ECC88-Bugle-Boy-Tubes-Test-Great-1968/254306779241


----------



## Robert Padgett (Jul 27, 2019)

TK16 said:


> Visually not a single listing would I even consider from that seller. Bunch of ugly ass tubes.
> 
> Posted this in the Lyr thread.
> 
> ...




I don't own a tester, I rely upon reputable tubemongers.
I purchased a matched pair NOS "Unknown" 6DJ8 from Vivatubes.com for $25, which may very well be an Amperex Bugle Boy but all markings were gone. (I have looked at similar internals to BBs,) These two tubes sounded better than any other 6922 variants I had heard.

The eBay vendors are notorious for rather liberal interpretations of "Tests Good", and all my grab-bag tubes (6SN7s) all sounded good, and nothing borked my Vali 2.
I appreciate the humor about some eBay adverts. I have found a good tubes vendor on Etsy from Virginia. The good ones are the exception, I have discovered.


----------



## TK16

Robert Padgett said:


> I don't own a tester, I rely upon reputable tubemongers.
> I purchased a matched pair NOS "Unknown" 6DJ8 from Vivatubes.com for $25, which may very well be an Amperex Bugle Boy but all markings were gone. (I have looked at similar internals to BBs,) These two tubes sounded better than any other 6922 variants I had heard.
> 
> The eBay vendors are notorious for rather liberal interpretations of "Tests Good", and all my grab-bag tubes (6SN7s) all sounded good, and nothing borked my Vali 2.
> I appreciate the humor about some eBay adverts. I have found a good tubes vendor on Etsy from Virginia. The good ones are the exception, I have discovered.


Problem with not having a tube tester imo is I have/had multiple tubes tested at minimum Gm and a lot of them sounds/sounded fine. Like the 1 ECC88 D-getter with testing at 10,500-8,000 with 7,750 minimum. Low testing ECC82 in my experience is a noisy and or microphonic piece o Schiit. I have had better experiences with many eBay sellers than someone like Brent Jessee.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> I don't own a tester, I rely upon reputable tubemongers.
> I purchased a matched pair NOS "Unknown" 6DJ8 from Vivatubes.com for $25, which may very well be an Amperex Bugle Boy but all markings were gone. (I have looked at similar internals to BBs,) These two tubes sounded better than any other 6922 variants I had heard.
> 
> The eBay vendors are notorious for rather liberal interpretations of "Tests Good", and all my grab-bag tubes (6SN7s) all sounded good, and nothing borked my Vali 2.
> I appreciate the humor about some eBay adverts. I have found a good tubes vendor on Etsy from Virginia. The good ones are the exception, I have discovered.



Buying from Ebay is a roll of the dice. I've received some great tubes for a fraction of the cost of buying from a dealer. I've also received some duds and even some shorted tubes. I've been far more lucky than not, although I won't even think about buying a seller that just states "tests good" with no readings and/or correlation to what "good" actually means.  Those, in my experience, are where the house odds are tilted well against you.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> I have had better experiences with many eBay sellers than someone like Brent Jessee.



Me too, sorry to say.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Me too, sorry to say.


Please be respectful and quote my entire post.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Please be respectful and quote my entire post.



OK.  Better?


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> OK.


Thanks!


----------



## Paladin79

Robert Padgett said:


> I don't own a tester, I rely upon reputable tubemongers.
> I purchased a matched pair NOS "Unknown" 6DJ8 from Vivatubes.com for $25, which may very well be an Amperex Bugle Boy but all markings were gone. (I have looked at similar internals to BBs,) These two tubes sounded better than any other 6922 variants I had heard.
> 
> The eBay vendors are notorious for rather liberal interpretations of "Tests Good", and all my grab-bag tubes (6SN7s) all sounded good, and nothing borked my Vali 2.
> I appreciate the humor about some eBay adverts. I have found a good tubes vendor on Etsy from Virginia. The good ones are the exception, I have discovered.



That vendor, if the same one I use, even knows about the 6sn7 challenge, he supplied me with the GE tube I used. I know him fairly well and may visit when I am in the area. Lowtechelec perhaps?


----------



## Robert Padgett

TK16 said:


> Problem with not having a tube tester imo is I have/had multiple tubes tested at minimum Gm and a lot of them sounds/sounded fine. Like the 1 ECC88 D-getter with testing at 10,500-8,000 with 7,750 minimum. Low testing ECC82 in my experience is a noisy and or microphonic piece o Schiit. I have had better experiences with many eBay sellers than someone like Brent Jessee.



I was warned off of Mr. Brent, and I have had success with eBay, I am just saying that eBay purchases by folks without the test equipment are a crapshoot. Although I have been lucky with maybe a dozen tubes from eBay, I always tried them on the Vali before the Valhalla, in case they were going to explode.  I have had good luck with Vivatubes.com, Tubemonger.com, and TubeDepot.com


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> I was warned off of Mr. Brent, and I have had success with eBay, I am just saying that eBay purchases by folks without the test equipment are a crapshoot. Although I have been lucky with maybe a dozen tubes from eBay, I always tried them on the Vali before the Valhalla, in case they were going to explode.  I have had good luck with Vivatubes.com, Tubemonger.com, and TubeDepot.com



I've also always had good luck with Upscale Audio. Although you pay a pretty big premium for their tubes, you can be sure you're getting the real deal that's been thoroughly tested.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> That vendor, if the same one I use, even knows about the 6sn7 challenge, he supplied me with the GE tube I used. I know him fairly well and may visit when I am in the area. Lowtechelec perhaps?


That's the guy. Sold me a pair of delightful sounding used tubes... 

I did get my 1951 ribbed plate Fotons from a gentleman in Russia, from eBay. I am enjoying one of them in the Vali 2 to see if I can really hear the difference with the Melz 1578. 

I would concur with your opinion that rolling the Valhalla 2 does not reveal the differences in tubes like the little toaster. The Brimar CV4033s seem to be safe in VH2 for the time being, they have a better sound that the stock tubes or any variants I have tried. Thanks to @Ripper2860 for that suggestion. Musical Nirvana.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> I've also always had good luck with Upscale Audio. Although you pay a pretty big premium for their tubes, you can be sure you're getting the real deal that's been thoroughly tested.


Upscale is one my Bucket List...but not for tubes. I want a PrimaLuna speaker amp...


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 27, 2019)

Bill, I believe you know FLTWS (I may have the initials wrong), he got the Prima Luna and Sonus Fabers, my dream set up. The gentleman I got the Cary amp from had one, and was upgrading to a newer model. They are remarkable amps.

Buy the Prima Luna and you will have an integrated amp with headphone output!!!

Do that and you may not need a certain Cary pre-amp that now sounds wonderful thanks to a bit of detective work.


----------



## TK16

TK16 said:


> Problem with not having a tube tester imo is I have/had multiple tubes tested at minimum Gm and a lot of them sounds/sounded fine. Like the 1 ECC88 D-getter with testing at 10,500-8,000 with 7,750 minimum. Low testing ECC82 in my experience is a noisy and or microphonic piece o Schiit. I have had better experiences with many eBay sellers than someone like Brent Jessee.


Just retested all 4 BB D-getter ECC88, 3 good ones tested similar, the 1 at 10,500-8,000 after 18 hours burn in 12,250-10,350. Weird Schiit tested tubes yesterday 2 or 3 times with same result.


----------



## Paladin79

Don't try this at home but I am using the preamp out on a Vali 2 to test a circuit I am building for @bcowen. The purpose is to drop a high impedance output on a preamp down to around 2 ohms so it is suitable for his Aeons. Hunting through my shop I found some old Scullcandy headphones of similar impedance, this is about all they are good for, I am also trying some earbuds of various makes in trying for something approximating the 13 ohms of the Aeons.  I am using less expensive DAPS and headphone amps before finally plugging the circuit into a decent preamp. Notice the lagoon blue project box that will be used to house the circuit, a Cowenesque request. 

In the Vali is the Foton tube under test, by the end of the day it will have about sixty hours on it.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> That vendor, if the same one I use, even knows about the 6sn7 challenge, he supplied me with the GE tube I used. I know him fairly well and may visit when I am in the area. Lowtechelec perhaps?



Yeah -- Lowtecelec is one of my preferred sellers and can be found on Etsy.  Bought my Philco / Sylvie Bad-Boy and a paitr of TF 12AU7 smooth plates form the gentleman.  Always as described and responsive to questions.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah -- Lowtecelec is one of my preferred sellers and can be found on Etsy.  Bought my Philco / Sylvie Bad-Boy and a paitr of TF 12AU7 smooth plates form the gentleman.  Always as described and responsive to questions.


#metoo


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> Upscale is one my Bucket List...but not for tubes. I want a PrimaLuna speaker amp...



For which speakers?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill, I believe you know FLTWS (I may have the initials wrong), he got the Prima Luna and Sonus Fabers, my dream set up. The gentleman I got the Cary amp from had one, and was upgrading to a newer model. They are remarkable amps.
> 
> Buy the Prima Luna and you will have an integrated amp with headphone output!!!
> 
> Do that and you may not need a certain Cary pre-amp that now sounds wonderful thanks to a bit of detective work.



If I buy an integrated amp, you already know which one it will be.


----------



## bcowen (Jul 27, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Don't try this at home but I am using the preamp out on a Vali 2 to test a circuit I am building for @bcowen. The purpose is to drop a high impedance output on a preamp down to around 2 ohms so it is suitable for his Aeons. Hunting through my shop I found some old Scullcandy headphones of similar impedance, this is about all they are good for, I am also trying some earbuds of various makes in trying for something approximating the 13 ohms of the Aeons.  I am using less expensive DAPS and headphone amps before finally plugging the circuit into a decent preamp. Notice the lagoon blue project box that will be used to house the circuit, a Cowenesque request.
> 
> In the Vali is the Foton tube under test, by the end of the day it will have about sixty hours on it.



Sweeeeeeet!

But only 60 hours on the Foton?  It's either at the top of the roller coaster hill or the bottom...no way of knowing.  

As a matter of coincidence, I put my well broken-in '54 Foton back in this morning and have been listening to it off and on all day. As much as I love the Frankie, there's still something with that rhythm and foot tap with the Foton that is SO addicting. The Frankie is more refined, but for rock and metal, the Foton just gets you jammin' on the air guitar (an instrument I'm a virtuoso on, especially when nobody else is home).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sweeeeeeet!
> 
> But only 60 hours on the Foton?  It's either at the top of the roller coaster hill or the bottom...no way of knowing.
> 
> As a matter of coincidence, I put my well broken-in '54 Foton back in this morning and have been listening to it off and on all day. As much as I love the Frankie, there's still something with that rhythm and foot tap with the Foton that is SO addicting. The Frankie is more refined, but for rock and metal, the Foton just gets you jammin' on the air guitar (an instrument I'm a virtuoso on, especially when nobody else is home).



 Finally assembly will be tomorrow, I used some really nice Cardas wire and solder as well as some well shielded Belden wire. Note how the transformers will be mounted at right angles to one another? I know it applies to power transformers so why not lol. Anyway some final tests tomorrow then I should be done.

I have maybe 60 hours on the Foton plus today, I get up about six AM so I started it then so it has 12 hours today.

Oh and I know which integrated you would buy, I really like the Cary preamp now that I do not have a loud buzz going on in both channels lol. I have some very nice 5692's (I think that is the number) in it right now.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> #metoo



I do not mind mentioning Lowtechelec, he is not the guy I know with 100,000 tubes. A couple of those were used in the @bcowen steak dinner escapade.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finally assembly will be tomorrow, I used some really nice Cardas wire and solder as well as some well shielded Belden wire. Note how the transformers will be mounted at right angles to one another? I know it applies to power transformers so why not lol. Anyway some final tests tomorrow then I should be done.
> 
> I have maybe 60 hours on the Foton plus today, I get up about six AM so I started it then so it has 12 hours today.
> 
> Oh and I know which integrated you would buy, I really like the Cary preamp now that I do not have a loud buzz going on in both channels lol. I have some very nice 5692's (I think that is the number) in it right now.



The 5692 is correct for a 6SN7 sub. I have some CBS/Hytron 5692's that are awesome in some applications, but not so much in others. Sounded great in Cary gear, sounded great in the Vali 2, but was kind of a "me too" tube in the Lyr 3. Not meh, but certainly bettered by a lot of other tubes. What brand do you have on those, do you know?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The 5692 is correct for a 6SN7 sub. I have some CBS/Hytron 5692's that are awesome in some applications, but not so much in others. Sounded great in Cary gear, sounded great in the Vali 2, but was kind of a "me too" tube in the Lyr 3. Not meh, but certainly bettered by a lot of other tubes. What brand do you have on those, do you know?


 These are CBS JAN, red tube bases. Maybe Hytron I forget.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finally assembly will be tomorrow, I used some really nice Cardas wire and solder as well as some well shielded Belden wire. Note how the transformers will be mounted at right angles to one another? I know it applies to power transformers so why not lol. Anyway some final tests tomorrow then I should be done.
> 
> I have maybe 60 hours on the Foton plus today, I get up about six AM so I started it then so it has 12 hours today.
> 
> Oh and I know which integrated you would buy, I really like the Cary preamp now that I do not have a loud buzz going on in both channels lol. I have some very nice 5692's (I think that is the number) in it right now.



Also, who makes those cases?  That looks pretty sweet.  I've bought a few from China Ebay sellers with mixed success -- a couple have been quite nice, and a couple have been sent with razor sharp edges where the extrusion was cut and holes that didn't line up worth a crap in the end plates.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Also, who makes those cases?  That looks pretty sweet.  I've bought a few from China Ebay sellers with mixed success -- a couple have been quite nice, and a couple have been sent with razor sharp edges where the extrusion was cut and holes that didn't line up worth a crap in the end plates.


These were on Amazon I believe, Chinese but not too bad of quality. It was hard to find one small enough, I did not want to have a lot of wasted space.  I will try to get the info to you fairly soon.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> These were on Amazon I believe, Chinese but not too bad of quality. It was hard to find one small enough, I did not want to have a lot of wasted space.  I will try to get the info to you fairly soon.



Cool.  Thanks.  I bought a cheap one for an AMB the linear power supply kit to start with, and every time I looked at it it pissed me off.  Got the one below which was more money, but at least it looks good and makes me happy to look at it.  Didn't need the heat sinks obviously, but this one fit the size profile I was looking for and was less expensive than many others.


----------



## bcowen

Right now:   Foton + Van Halen = Heaven.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Cool.  Thanks.  I bought a cheap one for an AMB the linear power supply kit to start with, and every time I looked at it it pissed me off.  Got the one below which was more money, but at least it looks good and makes me happy to look at it.  Didn't need the heat sinks obviously, but this one fit the size profile I was looking for and was less expensive than many others.



That looks like a case made for a Pass Amp Camp amp. 

Here is the one I am using on the current project:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MZP92TH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

So far everything lines up pretty well, the screws are a little tough to install first time but I will work on that a bit later today. They are self tapping.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> That looks like a case made for a Pass Amp Camp amp.
> 
> Here is the one I am using on the current project:
> 
> ...



You mean it was available in green and you didn't tell me?  Oh man. I'm bummed.

J/K...love the blue. Like it better than any of the other colors offered. And thanks for the link.  Pretty nice price without having to wait 3+ weeks for a delivery from China.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 28, 2019)

bcowen said:


> You mean it was available in green and you didn't tell me?  Oh man. I'm bummed.
> 
> J/K...love the blue. Like it better than any of the other colors offered. And thanks for the link.  Pretty nice price without having to wait 3+ weeks for a delivery from China.


The only thing I am lacking is rubber feet but you may have some yourself. Naturally the red RCA jack goes to the right, I may mark the bottom so you do not invert the box. There are reasons for not doing that, just trust me on this.

I want to do a bit more testing and will most likely ship a couple things to you Tuesday or Wednesday.

Over 70 hours on the Foton now, this is taking forever; it is like raising children or paying a mortgage. Surely @bcowen does not do this for every Foton tube???


----------



## bcowen (Jul 28, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> The only thing I am lacking is rubber feet but you may have some yourself. Naturally the red RCA jack goes to the right, I may mark the bottom so you do not invert the box. There are reasons for not doing that, just trust me on this.



I have lots of suitable footers for it, so no worries there.



Paladin79 said:


> Over 70 hours on the Foton now, this is taking forever; it is like raising children or paying a mortgage. Surely @bcowen does not do this for every Foton tube???


  That was the previous primary use of the preamp you're working on. Put the Fotons in, hook up the Zune, and let them play 24/7 until they hit that 100 hour mark.  That's where its CBI nickname came from -- the Cary Burner Inner.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 28, 2019)

The finished impedance matching box.
  There has to be a better way for you to burn tubes in lol, that is too nice of a preamp to not be listened to regularly. The only problem is, now it is a preamp or headphone amp and I am not sure I can readily buy you a replacement that uses two 6sn7's and serves either function and allows for 13 ohm headphones. Of course that part may not be to your liking so if you relegate it to burning in tubes, I bet I can find something else for that. 

This matches up better with the Ken Rad in the tube challenge:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-6SN7GT-V...027817?hash=item4440fbeba9:g:s3UAAOSwRWtdJiJ-


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


>


That looks awesome, Tom!  But wait...the right jack is on the left.  



Paladin79 said:


> Of course that part may not be to your liking so if you relegate it to burning in tubes, I bet I can find something else for that.



I know....a Vali 2!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This matches up better with the Ken Rad in the tube challenge:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-6SN7GT-V...027817?hash=item4440fbeba9:g:s3UAAOSwRWtdJiJ-



Thanks for that. I don't care for that particular seller, but now I know what to look for.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 28, 2019)

bcowen said:


> That looks awesome, Tom!  But wait...the right jack is on the left.
> 
> 
> 
> I know....a Vali 2!!



Um, if you want a Vali 2 for the Cary I will send you the cash immediately and you can order your own lol

You drive a hard bargain but I could also throw in some GE tubes that were not quite up to the 6sn7 challenge.


----------



## TK16

@bcowen , I'm watching this very closely (mainly for the carpet and perfect Siemens label). Not many genuine Siemens with thin font "6922". 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gold-Pin-N...-Germany-vintage-CCA-ECC88-E88CC/173974789056


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> Over 70 hours on the Foton now, this is taking forever; it is like raising children or paying a mortgage. Surely @bcowen does not do this for every Foton tube???



Nah.  Only the ones he wants to listen to.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Nah.  Only the ones he wants to listen to.



I will see and hear for myself soon enough if the 100 hours makes a difference. I am curious and if there is a reason, there is a reason. I did add new pin solder to both tubes before starting and that could be part of it, if i do not measure or hear a change.


----------



## Mr Trev

All this 6sn7 talk reminded me of a question I had…
Since the Vali2 doesn't drive the 6sn7 anywhere near the optimal plate voltage, how does this affect the sound (or does it even affect things)?


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> All this 6sn7 talk reminded me of a question I had…
> Since the Vali2 doesn't drive the 6sn7 anywhere near the optimal plate voltage, how does this affect the sound (or does it even affect things)?



That is a little hard to know. I use the Vali to do a quick check on the tubes but I generally prefer the sound to the native tube type so that is all I use in it. 6SN7’s. YMMV


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Um, if you want a Vali 2 for the Cary I will send you the cash immediately and you can order your own lol
> 
> You drive a hard bargain but I could also throw in some GE tubes that were not quite up to the 6sn7 challenge.



I *do* use the CBI occasionally along with the Super Amp for driving the Eminent Tech desktop speakers.  I stuck this Audio Note in as a temporary substitute when I sent the Cary to you. It sucks. It's solid state so some suckage is expected, but it's pretty extreme.  The addition of those GE tubes is giving me second thoughts though.  



 
The cat hair on the grille cloth is for @Ripper2860 :


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> @bcowen , I'm watching this very closely (mainly for the carpet and perfect Siemens label). Not many genuine Siemens with thin font "6922".
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gold-Pin-N...-Germany-vintage-CCA-ECC88-E88CC/173974789056



Strange. Menifee must be running low on stock if they're using BangyBang relabels now.  Or maybe Menifee management went on vacation and someone from the BangyBang technical department is filling in?  At least they got the carpet right.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I *do* use the CBI occasionally along with the Super Amp for driving the Eminent Tech desktop speakers.  I stuck this Audio Note in as a temporary substitute when I sent the Cary to you. It sucks. It's solid state so some suckage is expected, but it's pretty extreme.  The addition of those GE tubes is giving me second thoughts though.
> 
> 
> Well one day if you decide to get rid of it keep me in mind, I like its sound.  I may come up with a proper trade one day.
> ...


----------



## TK16

Who thinks I should go for this Vali 2 compatible Telefunken CCa?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Telefunken-Cca-E188CC-ECC88-6DJ8-6922-7308-NOS-NIB/163795767595


----------



## Wes S (Jul 30, 2019)

TK16 said:


> Who thinks I should go for this Vali 2 compatible Telefunken CCa?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Telefunken-Cca-E188CC-ECC88-6DJ8-6922-7308-NOS-NIB/163795767595


Doesn't look like a Tele to me. . .In fact, that is one of the worst looking fakes I have seen!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 30, 2019)

TK16 said:


> Who thinks I should go for this Vali 2 compatible Telefunken CCa?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Telefunken-Cca-E188CC-ECC88-6DJ8-6922-7308-NOS-NIB/163795767595



What a shame.  I was hoping it would work on my $50 HP amp ...


----------



## TK16

Wes S said:


> Doesn't look like a Tele to me. . .


Yeah looks like large halo getter Heerlen. Awful job of fakery. Worth much less. Think @Ripper2860 is interested in it, please don't buy it.


----------



## Wes S

TK16 said:


> Yeah looks like large halo getter Heerlen. Awful job of fakery. Worth much less. Think @Ripper2860 is interested in it, please don't buy it.


I thought it looked like an Heerlen Amperex, and therefore it will probably still sound good, and allow the seller to get away with it.


----------



## TK16

Wes S said:


> I thought it looked like an Heerlen Amperex, and therefore it will probably still sound good, and allow the seller to get away with it.


He might not even know it's a fake, picture shows no diamond between the pins.


----------



## Paladin79

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...bable-start-up.701900/page-3246#post-15092758

The 6sn7 tubes used in the challenge will go to Schiit audio in September. I may upgrade a couple tubes since a few of them were geared toward @bcowen. I cannot exactly use the term Frankie and have everyone understand what that means but I will find a better one to send along, as well as one of the holy grail Melz.


----------



## Ripper2860

TK16 said:


> Yeah looks like large halo getter Heerlen. Awful job of fakery. Worth much less. Think @Ripper2860 is interested in it, please don't buy it.



I think it would be best if I just went back to solid state amps.


----------



## Wes S

TK16 said:


> He might not even know it's a fake, picture shows no diamond between the pins.


I actually looked up that seller's history, and they have sold some really nice tubes, but after seeing the fake I won't be buying anything from that person.  Even if they don't know it is a fake, they should, for the kind of money, they are asking for.


----------



## ScubaMan2017 (Jul 30, 2019)

TK16 said:


> Who thinks I should go for this Vali 2 compatible Telefunken CCa?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Telefunken-Cca-E188CC-ECC88-6DJ8-6922-7308-NOS-NIB/163795767595


_Sweet Jesus. 280 dollars, US. Each?! _Oh man oh man. Too rich for my blood. 

{{{{edit - read the rest of the thread... not 100% genuine? Ah....}}}}


----------



## TK16

ScubaMan2017 said:


> _Sweet Jesus. 280 dollars, US. Each?! _Oh man oh man. Too rich for my blood.
> 
> {{{{edit - read the rest of the thread... not 100% genuine? Ah....}}}}


Your absolutely right on the $280, just put in a legally binding bid on your behalf for $275. No need to thank me.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Who thinks I should go for this Vali 2 compatible Telefunken CCa?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Telefunken-Cca-E188CC-ECC88-6DJ8-6922-7308-NOS-NIB/163795767595



I think you should buy it and see if it sounds like the real thing.  I mean it's been "carefully" tested in his TV-7 of unknown calibration or operational status with no test values provided. Quit being so picky. 

PS: do you know how to care_lessly_ test a tube?  There's nothing in my 752A manual covering that....


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> What a shame.  I was hoping it would work on my $50 HP amp ...



Um, might be a problem with a lack of volume in one channel. Only one tube for sale.

Just trying to be helpful (as usual).


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Um, might be a problem with a lack of volume in one channel. Only one tube for sale.
> 
> Just trying to be helpful (as usual).


Got that covered, sending him another tube with exactly the same Telefunken CCa construction. Unfortunately the Tele paint is wiped off. Accidentally put them in the dishwasher.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Got that covered, sending him another tube with exactly the same Telefunken CCa construction. Unfortunately the Tele paint is wiped off. Accidentally put them in the dishwasher.



Paint it black. It'll be fine.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Um, might be a problem with a lack of volume in one channel. Only one tube for sale.
> 
> Just trying to be helpful (as usual).



But that one channel would have sounded *AWESOME *!!!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> But that one channel would have sounded *AWESOME *!!!!



Good point.  I'll send you a Philips ECG 6922 to put in the other channel. That way only one ear will bleed at a time.  Consider it a gift, just help cover the $99.95 shipping cost.


----------



## Ripper2860

No thanks, Bill -- I mean Mr. Menifee.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

TK16 said:


> Your absolutely right on the $280, just put in a legally binding bid on your behalf for $275. No need to thank me.


TK16,
you are bad,
mad,
and dangerous to know.


----------



## TK16 (Jul 31, 2019)

Been searching and found definitive proof that GE tubes do not suck. Actually been searching for months.
Read the tube box in photo 1.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Unused-NIB-GE-JG-12AU7-ECC82-Vacuum-Tubes-1954-Super-Balanced/401831026738
Also pleased to announce, @bcowen latest tube tester restoration is finally completed.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hickok-532-Dynamic-Mutual-Conductance-Tube-Tester-PARTS-UNIT-No-Case-AS-IS/264391760513


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Been searching and found definitive proof that GE tubes do not suck. Actually been searching for months.
> Read the tube box in photo 1.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Unused-NIB-GE-JG-12AU7-ECC82-Vacuum-Tubes-1954-Super-Balanced/401831026738



Nice find!!!  Marketing sure has changed over the years....now they would be required to say "ALL 12AU7's are physically and electrically similar to the CV-491."  And probably be required to add an addendum for truth-in-advertising: "But ours sound the worst of any physically and electrically tube similar to a CV-491."  




TK16 said:


> Also pleased to announce, @bcowen latest tube tester restoration is finally completed.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hickok-532-Dynamic-Mutual-Conductance-Tube-Tester-PARTS-UNIT-No-Case-AS-IS/264391760513



LOL!  That remnant isn't even worth the cost of shipping. I guess you could pick it up if you live close enough, but if it requires more than a gallon of gas for the round trip, you paid too much.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> Nice find!!!  Marketing sure has changed over the years....now they would be required to say "ALL 12AU7's are physically and electrically similar to the CV-491."  And probably be required to add an addendum for truth-in-advertising: "But ours sound the worst of any physically and electrically tube similar to a CV-491."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



“Incomplete, for parts or restore....see photos.....”

Finally-- words which are worth a thousand pictures...


----------



## TK16 (Aug 1, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Nice find!!!  Marketing sure has changed over the years....now they would be required to say "ALL 12AU7's are physically and electrically similar to the CV-491."  And probably be required to add an addendum for truth-in-advertising: "But ours sound the worst of any physically and electrically tube similar to a CV-491."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry bro, this was the best tester I could find for sale yesterday. Today I still have not found a better tester. Sure it is a LITTLE rough around the edges ie. not a single dial in sight and a couple other minor issues regarding no meter etc.
Looks like it comes with a kick ass ruler though,need to take that into account. Innarrds look top notch as well.


----------



## Ripper2860

*FOR SALE:*  Old steel plate and a mess of wires.


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> *FOR SALE:*  Old steel plate and a mess of wires.


Think that's the tester that went down with the Titanic, 100 years in the ocean is going to facilitate some minor issues.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> “Incomplete, for parts or restore....see photos.....”
> 
> Finally-- words which are worth a thousand pictures...



LOL!


----------



## 1mctous (Aug 1, 2019)

Brimar ECC88, warm yet spacious.  I never looked back and it's been 2 1/2 years.  BTW I joined when I ordered my Vali 2 and the Brimar tube.


----------



## Robert Padgett

1mctous said:


> Brimar ECC88, warm yet spacious.  I never looked back and it's been 2 1/2 years.  BTW I joined when I ordered my Vali 2 and the Brimar tube.




If your experience with the ECC88 has been even close to what I have had with the CV4033 (12AT7)--

I understand completely. When I first put them in, I said, "Okay, I am HERE!" no need to look further...


----------



## Wes S

Robert Padgett said:


> If your experience with the ECC88 has been even close to what I have had with the CV4033 (12AT7)--
> 
> I understand completely. When I first put them in, I said, "Okay, I am HERE!" no need to look further...


The Brimar CV2492 did that for me too!  I rolled them in the LP, and they have not and will not come out, as there is no need.  I am there, with the musicians.


----------



## Ripper2860

I do love 12AU7s, so much against logic and commonsense, I've ordered 2 of the Brimar CV-4034s.  If the 12AT7 / Brimar CV4033 sounds as good as it does, the 12AU7 / Brimar CV4034 has gotta sound better, right?  I mean it's a higher number!!  

Don't even get me started on Western Electric 2C51s...


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> I do love 12AU7s, so much against logic and commonsense, I've ordered 2 of the Brimar CV-4034s.  If the 12AT7 / Brimar CV4033 sounds as good as it does, the 12AU7 / Brimar CV4034 has gotta sound better, right?  I mean it's a higher number!!
> 
> Don't even get me started on Western Electric 2C51s...


I have had my eye on those CV4034, and really wonder if they are any better than my 56' square getter, or 62' CV4003?  Looks like there is only 1 left in stock!


----------



## Ripper2860

There were 3 at the time of my purchase.  Sorry about that.


----------



## TK16

Inexpensive WE 396A pair. Only about $100 more than a Vali 2.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...nt-Square-Getter-1946-USA-Strong/113844271639


----------



## Ripper2860

Ok, maybe I'm stupid, stupid, stupid, but ...

No Date Code indicates this tube is made in 1946.
*1946 is the first year Western Electric made this tube.
*
This tube has very rare bent square getter!

*Very early production from 1944!

*


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> Ok, maybe I'm stupid, stupid, stupid, but ...
> 
> No Date Code indicates this tube is made in 1946.
> *1946 is the first year Western Electric made this tube.
> ...


Don't want to get dragged into a discussion about a person's IQ or delve into stupidity. As I may or may not suffer from the same afflictions. Sure @bcowen may have an opinion. My understanding of WE is that they are 1946. Have one of those bent D-getters myself.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 5, 2019)

Maybe I was too obtuse.  The seller states "*Very early production from 1944!"  *after saying *"1946 is the first year Western Electric made this tube." * So unless he built a time machine and took a 1946 tube back to 1944 or vice-versa, or... 

Oh, who cares?


----------



## Mr Trev

Ripper2860 said:


> Maybe I was too obtuse.  The seller states "*Very early production from 1944!"  *after saying *"1946 is the first year Western Electric made this tube." * So unless he built a time machine and took a 1946 tube back to 1944 or vice-versa, or...
> 
> Oh, who cares?



Quite simple my good man. 1944 is the metric conversion of 1946. They're both correct dates.


----------



## Ripper2860

I suspect someone is attempting to sell me a metric ton of fertilizer.


----------



## TK16

Found some very nice looking RCA 12AU7 clear tops. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-RCA-12AU7-CLEAR-TOP-VINTAGE-TUBES-HAMMOND-BRANDED/333289676477


----------



## Ripper2860

NICE!!!     They are the rare 'opaque glass' versions of the clear tops.


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> NICE!!!     They are the rare 'opaque glass' versions of the clear tops.


Seller stated being shipped by weight, with dirt, the tubes are near 1 pound each.


----------



## Wes S

TK16 said:


> Found some very nice looking RCA 12AU7 clear tops.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-RCA-12AU7-CLEAR-TOP-VINTAGE-TUBES-HAMMOND-BRANDED/333289676477


Crazy!  Just wipe the damn things off.


----------



## Ripper2860

I know!!  I'd hate to see the seller's house!!


----------



## Robert Padgett

TK16 said:


> Found some very nice looking RCA 12AU7 clear tops.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-RCA-12AU7-CLEAR-TOP-VINTAGE-TUBES-HAMMOND-BRANDED/333289676477


"Removed from working organ."  That explains much. Clear Tops, the rest...not so much clarity.


----------



## Mr Trev

Maybe "patina" is a thing for vacuum tubes now? Shows they're authentic…


----------



## Ripper2860

Assuming it's a married guy -- Maybe the wife is forcing him to sell off his collection and he's listing in a fashion in which it would never sell so he can tell the wife he tried.  That's what I'd do.


----------



## TK16

Wow you guys are rough, last time I am going to link great looking tubes. I`ll start linking tubes like this instead!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-RCA-12AU7-CLEAR-TOP-VINTAGE-TUBES-HAMMOND-BRANDED/333289676477


----------



## KoshNaranek

Ripper2860 said:


> I suspect someone is attempting to sell me a metric ton of fertilizer.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 6, 2019)

<Deleted: Seemed funnier when I first posted it>


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> There were 3 at the time of my purchase.  Sorry about that.



Tube slut.


----------



## Ripper2860

Guilty as charged.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Don't want to get dragged into a discussion about a person's IQ or delve into stupidity. As I may or may not suffer from the same afflictions. Sure @bcowen may have an opinion. My understanding of WE is that they are 1946. Have one of those bent D-getters myself.



I never have an opinion about anything.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Found some very nice looking RCA 12AU7 clear tops.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-RCA-12AU7-CLEAR-TOP-VINTAGE-TUBES-HAMMOND-BRANDED/333289676477



Nothing a little black paint can't handle.


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> <Deleted: Seemed funnier when I first posted it>


I saw what you did last summer.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 6, 2019)

Was it my Speedo wardrobe malfunction?


----------



## bcowen

KoshNaranek said:


>



@Ripper2860 needs to quit spending money on tubes and get his damn toilet fixed.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm saving it for when my wife tries to make me sell my tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm saving it for when my wife tries to make me sell my tubes.



@TK16 will probably buy all your GE's for top dollar.  Of course with GE's all of them (on the planet) are worth about a dollar.  You'll have to negotiate the shipping.


----------



## Ripper2860

Dammit!!!    If I had known that, I would have bought more than one.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Dammit!!!    If I had known that, I would have bought more than one.



You mean some of your tubes are NOT GE's?  Yeah, right.


----------



## Ripper2860

Only the one 6SN7 and Sylvie made - GE branded Frankies.  I'm a quick study.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> @TK16 will probably buy all your GE's for top dollar.  Of course with GE's all of them (on the planet) are worth about a dollar.  You'll have to negotiate the shipping.


Sorry forgot to send you back the WE JW 396A tube stamper, all the GE 5 star 2C51`s are reprinted.


----------



## Ripper2860

A smiley-face or wink emoticon affixed to the end of your post would be really helpful.


----------



## Paladin79

Now that I have already made the purchase, a trick I learned long ago when buying on Ebay is to search for misspelled or mis-numbered items.

Example. amethyst and amathyst..... 5692, 5962 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-CB...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> A smiley-face or wink emoticon affixed to the end of your post would be really helpful.


I'd edit the post but @bcowen was successful in eliminating the edit feature of the forums here.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> I'd edit the post but @bcowen was successful in eliminating the edit feature of the forums here.



Not the forums, just you.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Now that I have already made the purchase, a trick I learned long ago when buying on Ebay is to search for misspelled or mis-numbered items.
> 
> Example. amethyst and amathyst..... 5692, 5962
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-CBS-HYTRON-5962-BROWN-RADIO-TUBE-TESTED-STRONG/264413590624?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649



And BangyBang / Menifee Audio (and any new alternate identity the sleazebag comes up with) are instantly recognizable with an apostrophe preceding every 'S' whether it belongs or not.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> And BangyBang / Menifee Audio (and any new alternate identity the sleazebag comes up with) are instantly recognizable with an apostrophe preceding every 'S' whether it belongs or not.


It's definitely's not's me's as's mine's grammar's is's not's similar's in's any's way's.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> It's definitely's not's me's as's mine's grammar's is's not's similar's in's any's way's.



ROFL!

Ooops...I meant ROFL'S.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> ROFL!
> 
> Ooops...I meant ROFL'S.


You guys freakin crack me up!  I swear I laugh out loud several times a day, reading ya'lls post.  Thanks for that guys!


----------



## TK16

Wes S said:


> You guys freakin crack me up!  I swear I laugh out loud several times a day, reading ya'lls post.  Thanks for that guys!


Judging by you feedback on the tubes I sold's you's. They are guaranteed to work excellent in your gear's.


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> You guys freakin crack me up!  I swear I laugh out loud several times a day, reading ya'lls post.  Thanks for that guys!



@TK16 spurs me on.  Maybe it's the constant challenge of determining whether he's joking or serious.  I usually assume the former unless I actually agree with him in which case it's the latter.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> @TK16 spurs me on.  Maybe it's the constant challenge of determining whether he's joking or serious.  I usually assume the former unless I actually agree with him in which case it's the latter.


Most times I'm joking part of the time, at least 15% but under 35% serious, except on leap years.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> There were 3 at the time of my purchase.  Sorry about that.


Hey man!  I just bought the last Brimar CV4034, and I am more excited about this tube, than any other purchased before.  Have you gotten them yet?  If so, what do you think?


----------



## Ripper2860

Wes S said:


> Hey man!  I just bought the last Brimar CV4034, and I am more excited about this tube, than any other purchased before.  Have you gotten them yet?  If so, what do you think?



I purchased 2 of the 3 remaining and they could not put together a matched pair.   Got an email from Tubemonger that they received a small lot yesterday and we're able to get me a nicely matched pair.  Shipping today.

I'll let you know once I receive them.  A fellow HF'er bought a pair and thinks they are definitely a very top tier tube, so I'm pretty jazzed about getting them.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> I purchased 2 of the 3 remaining and they could not put together a matched pair.   Got an email from Tubemonger that they received a small lot yesterday and we're able to get me a nicely matched pair.  Shipping today.
> 
> I'll let you know once I receive them.  A fellow HF'er bought a pair and thinks they are definitely a very top tier tube, so I'm pretty jazzed about getting them.


Nice man!  I plan on buying another one, for backup, when they have stock again.


----------



## Wes S

TK16 said:


> Judging by you feedback on the tubes I sold's you's. They are guaranteed to work excellent in your gear's.


Thanks for that!  I am rolling that 7316, that I got from you, back in tonight, and can't wait to see what that tube can do.  The Sylvania 5814a triple mica grey plate is a killer tube, and is my current number 1, so we shall see if the 7316 can beat it.


----------



## TK16

Ok think this covers me for the week.


----------



## TK16

Bargain right here. Untested but nice price imo.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Western-Electric-396A-2C51-Audio-Vacuum-Tubes-Pair/132340743695


----------



## Wes S

TK16 said:


> Bargain right here. Untested but nice price imo.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Western-Electric-396A-2C51-Audio-Vacuum-Tubes-Pair/132340743695


Damn!  I have like 5 pairs of those, and looks like I made a great investment.  Maybe it is time to sell a few. . .


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Bargain right here. Untested but nice price imo.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Western-Electric-396A-2C51-Audio-Vacuum-Tubes-Pair/132340743695



Glad you got all your emoticons out of the way earlier.


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> Damn!  I have like 5 pairs of those, and looks like I made a great investment.  Maybe it is time to sell a few. . .



At that price, you should sell all of them.  

But *selling* tubes is in direct violation of published tube hoarder policies, so there could be some disciplinary action as a result.  I don't envy the tough decision you're faced with.


----------



## Robert Padgett (Aug 9, 2019)

bcowen said:


> At that price, you should sell all of them.
> 
> But *selling* tubes is in direct violation of published tube hoarder policies, so there could be some disciplinary action as a result.  I don't envy the tough decision you're faced with.


Regulation 52-35, subsection B:  Tube Hoarding is a sacred vocation, although you can only conduct marriages within the family. Selling of tubes is like marrying outside of your family, like to a stranger. Penalties for selling tubes are as follows:  Class D mismedeanor-- 4 hours with a GE tube, in headphones.  The severity of the sentence can be adjusted by the three judge panel of Audiophilia Court. Adequate counsel can be provided by the law firm of Menafee, Bangy, and Bangy, LLC. (Mauritania-licensed and accepted in the South Carolina Bar Association)

(Disclaimer: I am an unpaid non-legal endorsement specialist)


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> ...although you can only conduct marriages within the family.



LOL!  

I thought this was a national thing and didn't realize it was regulated at the state level. You must be referencing West Virginia above.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Glad you got all your emoticons out of the way earlier.


Was like a huge weight off my shoulders. Confession was a breeze as I intentionally lied to the clergy. Now facing damnation on my final judgement.


----------



## Paladin79

Ok I am almost afraid to ask this but what are some recommended 6922’s/ECC88’s in the $50 or less bracket?  I am considering using some in a DAC/amp. The 6sn7’s are a bit much for it.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I am almost afraid to ask this but what are some recommended 6922’s/ECC88’s in the $50 or less bracket?  I am considering using some in a DAC/amp. The 6sn7’s are a bit much for it.



Dunno if anybody else would recommend it, but so far, a late 60's orange globe has been my favourite 6922 type tube…


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Dunno if anybody else would recommend it, but so far, a late 60's orange globe has been my favourite 6922 type tube…


Maybe a link or two from EBay or Etsy?


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I am almost afraid to ask this but what are some recommended 6922’s/ECC88’s in the $50 or less bracket?  I am considering using some in a DAC/amp. The 6sn7’s are a bit much for it.


If you can stretch your budget some, I can recommend some D-getter ECC88 and PCC88 D-getter. These tubes are superior to the o-getter 60`s to 70`s o-getters. Earlier the better is generally better than later tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

I can stretch my budget if there is a significant difference in sound.

Links?

I have not bought these in ages so I am not sure which brands are being described lol.


----------



## TK16

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-Amperex-6DJ8-ECC88-D-Getter-Holland/113831024254
Fantastic seller, would most likely accept a $99 offer if you PM.


----------



## TK16

If your certain you can run a 7v tube at 6.3v in dac or amp here are some suggestions. Some are  delta Heerlen tubes some Hamburg (D) code.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Philips-MI...hoe-vacuum-tubes-Heerlen-factory/113844922567

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Valvo-pcc8...tested-vacuum-tubes-same-serials/113844926658

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Valvo-pcc8...oe-tested-vacuum-tubes-high-emis/113844913685

Also if you see any Lorenz Stuttgart PCC88 for sale they are a fantastic tube, Not ITT, Sel Lorenz. These are not Stuttgart's.

Sending you an invoice for the tube recommendations, I'll send you my PayPal email.


----------



## Wes S

TK16 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-Amperex-6DJ8-ECC88-D-Getter-Holland/113831024254
> Fantastic seller, would most likely accept a $99 offer if you PM.


I almost bought those yesterday, but don't really need them.  How do those sound?


----------



## TK16

Wes S said:


> I almost bought those yesterday, but don't really need them.  How do those sound?


Having previously bought the 60's o getter Heerlen ECC88, which I found mediocre sounding, from memory the D-getters are superior and worth the extra $ compared to the o-getters.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 9, 2019)

Wes S said:


> I almost bought those yesterday, but don't really need them.  How do those sound?


Meant to add, that seller, is my favorite e bay seller.  Sound checked, tested, and a good return policy.  I have bought several, from them, and they all were perfect.  Puts Brent Jesse to shame!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I can stretch my budget if there is a significant difference in sound.
> 
> Links?
> 
> I have not bought these in ages so I am not sure which brands are being described lol.




This would be my personal recommendation.  Free shipping to boot.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-Ph...292814?hash=item4b6784a28e:g:8zgAAOSwQWldLNmt





Seriously, the pair of _real_ Philips that @TK16 linked above would be a great choice, and that's a nice price too.  Can't comment on the Valvos as I don't have any and haven't ever heard any (but lots of people rave about them).  The reissued Gold Lion 6922's are not bad at all either. Made in Russia, but surprisingly decent sound for a newly manufactured tube.  Not going to be up there with the NOS gems, but reliable and very quiet (at least the pair I have). 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-...209&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> This would be my personal recommendation.  Free shipping to boot.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-Ph...292814?hash=item4b6784a28e:g:8zgAAOSwQWldLNmt
> 
> ...



I have one of those ECGs. Not even free shipping could redeem those. What does the ECG stand for anyways? I'm thinking it may be because you'll need an electro-cardiogram after listening (and not for good reasons)

Here's a pair of orange globes like mine from the same seller @TK16 listed: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...-Logo-O-Getter-Holland-July-1967/113844252301
I also got a gold pin JJ that doesn't entirely suck too, if you're looking interested in current vintage (both the JJ and ECG came with my Vali2 when I bought it)


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I have one of those ECGs. Not even free shipping could redeem those. What does the ECG stand for anyways? I'm thinking it may be because you'll need an electro-cardiogram after listening (and not for good reasons)
> 
> Here's a pair of orange globes like mine from the same seller @TK16 listed: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...-Logo-O-Getter-Holland-July-1967/113844252301
> I also got a gold pin JJ that doesn't entirely suck too, if you're looking interested in current vintage (both the JJ and ECG came with my Vali2 when I bought it)



I don't know what it abbreviates for Philips, but to my ears it designates *E*specially *C*rappy *G*arbage. Absolutely horrid tubes and equally awful regardless of type.  6SN7, 5814, 6922....they all suck.  Take the bland, boring, undynamic, bass-less, and 2-dimensional sound of a GE and add a heaping dose of screeching ear bleed and you'll get close to the sound presentation.  Cracks me up to see these on Ebay with sellers asking $100 a pair (and even more)...they aren't worth a $1 a pair in my book.


----------



## Paladin79

The tubes listed give me some choices, thanks.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> This would be my personal recommendation.  Free shipping to boot.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-Ph...292814?hash=item4b6784a28e:g:8zgAAOSwQWldLNmt
> 
> ...


I'd like to add a mint looking ECC82, 3rd mica is made out of discarded guitar picks. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Practical-...ic-Valve-Vacuum-Tube-12AU7-ECC82/312603430367


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> I'd like to add a mint looking ECC82, 3rd mica is made out of discarded guitar picks.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Practical-...ic-Valve-Vacuum-Tube-12AU7-ECC82/312603430367



ROFL!  That thing looks like it was made in someone's garage. At least the pins aren't straight.

Wouldn't it be funny if the thing sounds awesome?  I think you should get one @TK16 and check it out. That sticker on the bottom assures it's of high quality.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  That thing looks like it was made in someone's garage. At least the pins aren't straight.
> 
> Wouldn't it be funny if the thing sounds awesome?  I think you should get one @TK16 and check it out. That sticker on the bottom assures it's of high quality.


I cannot use tubes from Asia as I am allergic to bamboo.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> I cannot use tubes from Asia as I am allergic to bamboo.



Dang it.  Then @Ripper2860 should try them.  He hasn't blown up an amp in a while...


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Dang it.  Then @Ripper2860 should try them.  He hasn't blown up an amp in a while...


Scratch that other Chinese tubes, found a better priced 1 with transparent 3rd mica. Fancy looking.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12AU7-China-Single-1-Tube-NOS-E82CC-ECC82-12AU7/253453654915


----------



## Paladin79

just when you think things cannot be made any cheaper, the Chinese tend to find a way.


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> just when you think things cannot be made any cheaper, the Chinese tend to find a way.


Don't know they keep the prices low with the high quality materials they use.


----------



## Paladin79

I picked up a very nice CBS Hytron for the Schiit tube challenge next month, under $20. I have some really good choices for them now.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I picked up a very nice CBS Hytron for the Schiit tube challenge next month, under $20. I have some really good choices for them now.



A 5692? Or a 6SN7?  I've seen CBS 6SN7's and Hytron 6SN7's, but haven't yet run across a CBS/Hytron 6SN7. All I've seen labeled with both are 5692's.  So if it's the former for $20, you stole it. I'm jealous. If the latter, I'd love to see it...can you post a pic when you get a chance?


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Scratch that other Chinese tubes, found a better priced 1 with transparent 3rd mica. Fancy looking.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/12AU7-China-Single-1-Tube-NOS-E82CC-ECC82-12AU7/253453654915



The pins are too straight.  Can't be any good.  I won't even mention the carpet that's conspicuous by its absence.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Don't know they keep the prices low with the high quality materials they use.



Overhead is kept pretty low when using a garage for manufacturing.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 9, 2019)

bcowen said:


> A 5692? Or a 6SN7?  I've seen CBS 6SN7's and Hytron 6SN7's, but haven't yet run across a CBS/Hytron 6SN7. All I've seen labeled with both are 5692's.  So if it's the former for $20, you stole it. I'm jealous. If the latter, I'd love to see it...can you post a pic when you get a chance?


oops 5692, I am using it as an equivalent in the tube challenge so I keep thinking in those terms.

Just got it, just tested and cleaned it, just popped it in the Crack and turned on some Nils Lofgren Black Books and Man in the Moon and it is a wonderful find for the challenge.


----------



## TK16

Very cheap 6N3P Foton and Reflektor. 45 tubes $35 OBO. Not a joke post. Can be used with a 5670 to ECC88 adapter in the Vali 2.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/45x-Vintag...3P-6-3-6CC42-2C51-6385-ECC42-NEW/163802179313


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Dang it.  Then @Ripper2860 should try them.  He hasn't blown up an amp in a while...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> oops 5692, I am using it as an equivalent in the tube challenge so I keep thinking in those terms.
> 
> Just got it, just tested and cleaned it, just popped it in the Crack and turned on some Nils Lofgren Black Books and Man in the Moon and it is a wonderful find for the challenge.



You should be apologizing to whoever you bought it from for ripping them off. Do they have any more? 

I'll apologize before sending them the money.

That's like a $100+ tube, and in my personal opinion the CBS/Hytron stomps all over the RCA's (both 5691 and 5692) that everybody seems to get all googly-eyed about. 

Nice score!!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You should be apologizing to whoever you bought it from for ripping them off. Do they have any more?
> 
> I'll apologize before sending them the money.
> 
> ...


It came from an estate but the person selling it had a tube tester. He got the numbers wrong in his ad. 5962.

I just started looking because of the Schiit tube challenge.


----------



## bcowen (Aug 9, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> It came from an estate but the person selling it had a tube tester. He got the numbers wrong in his ad. 5962.
> 
> I just started looking because of the Schiit tube challenge.



LOL!  Then he deserves it.  Aren't you glad you didn't get a _real_ 5962?  Not only would it have been a fail for the tube challenge (it's a diode), it would suck.  






Edit: looks like the seller above typo'd too. The 5962 is a 7 pin tube, and those are 9-pinners.  No telling what they actually are, but who's going to care?


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Then he deserves it.  Aren't you glad you didn't get a _real_ 5962?  Not only would it have been a fail for the tube challenge (it's a diode), it would suck.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: looks like the seller above typo'd too. The 5962 is a 7 pin tube, and those are 9-pinners.  No telling what they actually are, but who's going to care?


These tubes look like beauties compared to the Chinese tubes I linked.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Then he deserves it.  Aren't you glad you didn't get a _real_ 5962?  Not only would it have been a fail for the tube challenge (it's a diode), it would suck.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: looks like the seller above typo'd too. The 5962 is a 7 pin tube, and those are 9-pinners.  No telling what they actually are, but who's going to care?



I was careful to check the photos and make sure it was the real thing.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> These tubes look like beauties compared to the Chinese tubes I linked.



The tubes look fine. and there's a chance that GE didn't even make them (whatever they are).  It's the boxes behind them that make me wanna puke.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> A 5692? Or a 6SN7?  I've seen CBS 6SN7's and Hytron 6SN7's, but haven't yet run across a CBS/Hytron 6SN7. All I've seen labeled with both are 5692's.  So if it's the former for $20, you stole it. I'm jealous. If the latter, I'd love to see it...can you post a pic when you get a chance?


I have a CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT. here you go:


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 10, 2019)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CB...377232?hash=item1eff5e1ed0:g:FGkAAOSw~ZpdPRzY

There are some of those on Ebay.

This morn I am comparing the CBS/Hytron 5692 to a Hitachi 6sn7gtb and a Raytheon VT-231, the Hitachi is impressive but the 5692 is a hard tube to beat.

Test track is by Jimmy LaFave...Never is a Moment....I listen to this song mainly because of the bass and piano tracks, the 5692 picks up the piano the best but the Hitachi deserves an honorable mention.

I switched to in a Melz 1578 and while the bass is accurate, the mids pop more. I am going to either build a second Bottlehead Crack or get another Vali 2 so I can A/B test some of these.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This morn I am comparing the CBS/Hytron 5692 to a Hitachi 6sn7gtb and a Raytheon VT-231, the Hitachi is impressive but the 5692 is a hard tube to beat.



Totally agree.  The CBS/Hytron version of the 5692 has been awesome (used natively) in every piece of Cary gear I've tried it in, and sounded awesome adapted in the Vali 2 as well. For whatever reason, it wasn't as impressive in the Lyr 3. Certainly not bad sounding by any means, just bettered by some other tubes. Haven't ever tried it in my Art gear. Would require adapters which wouldn't fit in the preamp, and I only have one 6922 --> 6SN7 adapter so would have to get another to try them in the amp. Would look kinda stupid, like that would ever be a hindrance to me.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I have a CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT. here you go:



Thanks ODD!!  First one I've seen.  When I get time today I'll compare your photo to the CBS (only) and Hytron (only) branded ones I have and see if there are similarities.


----------



## bcowen

Finally an answer to the question that nobody had (except me).  I have '51 through '55 Fotons, as well as '57 and newer. The '55 and earlier have the ribbed plates, and the '57 and later do not (and the ribbed plate versions are just a little better sounding than the non-ribbed). But I had never run across a '56 and didn't know exactly what year the ribbed plates stopped. Here's a '56 and it has the ribbed plates. So now we all know that '56 Foton 6H8C / 6N8S tubes are ribbed for pleasure as well as the earlier versions. 
This seller has only one '56 and nothing earlier (I already emailed him).    The ribbed plate version of these tubes have all but disappeared from Ebay, so if you want to try one....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/254282118754?ul_noapp=true


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Finally an answer to the question that nobody had (except me).  I have '51 through '55 Fotons, as well as '57 and newer. The '55 and earlier have the ribbed plates, and the '57 and later do not (and the ribbed plate versions are just a little better sounding than the non-ribbed). But I had never run across a '56 and didn't know exactly what year the ribbed plates stopped. Here's a '56 and it has the ribbed plates. So now we all know that '56 Foton 6H8C / 6N8S tubes are ribbed for pleasure as well as the earlier versions.
> This seller has only one '56 and nothing earlier (I already emailed him).    The ribbed plate version of these tubes have all but disappeared from Ebay, so if you want to try one....
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/254282118754?ul_noapp=true


Were the 3 yellow arrows included in the sale?


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Were the 3 yellow arrows included in the sale?



They are $100 each, but no additional shipping charge.  How many would you like?


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Finally an answer to the question that nobody had (except me).  I have '51 through '55 Fotons, as well as '57 and newer. The '55 and earlier have the ribbed plates, and the '57 and later do not (and the ribbed plate versions are just a little better sounding than the non-ribbed). But I had never run across a '56 and didn't know exactly what year the ribbed plates stopped. Here's a '56 and it has the ribbed plates. So now we all know that '56 Foton 6H8C / 6N8S tubes are ribbed for pleasure as well as the earlier versions.
> This seller has only one '56 and nothing earlier (I already emailed him).    The ribbed plate version of these tubes have all but disappeared from Ebay, so if you want to try one....
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/254282118754?ul_noapp=true



You missed a rib ...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You missed a rib ...



I figured @TK16 was too cheap to pay for 3.


----------



## bcowen

Hey @TK16 I found something for you. The Greed Selector is only $12.99 with free shipping.  You should buy it.



https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hickok-532...=11374298136432ed50bee53347ab83ef44c578e6371c


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Hey @TK16 I found something for you. The Greed Selector is only $12.99 with free shipping.  You should buy it.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hickok-532-533-Tube-Tester-parts-Switches-Knobs-Selectors-See-list/113742981364?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item1a7b9c28f4mjQ4YZTrepKI6ByVlgNFdbw&enc=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&checksum=11374298136432ed50bee53347ab83ef44c578e6371c


Hate to say this but I don't understand.lol


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Hate to say this but I don't understand.lol



@Ripper2860 should be able to explain it better than me.  Wait....he has the Hoard Selector.  Nevermind.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> @Ripper2860 should be able to explain it better than me.  Wait....he has the Hoard Selector.  Nevermind.


Ha, I got you the lame selector on order.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 10, 2019)

I'm starting to really worry about Bill.  He's been on a steady decline lately.   Poor fella.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm starting to really worry about Bill.  He's been on a steady decline lately.  Poor fella.


I will send him some GE tubes to cheer him up. A tube bouquet.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm starting to really worry about Bill.  He's been on a steady decline lately.   Poor fella.



Lately?


----------



## Ripper2860

Well, I didn't want to say 'fading fast' for fear of causing depression and further accelerating your demise.


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> I will send him some GE tubes to cheer him up. A tube bouquet.


I`ll add to that bouquet, some LM Ericsson 2C51 square getters and a pair of Bendix 2C51. Judging by the brightness on these tubes, all ears will require sun glasses.


----------



## Paladin79

https://www.etsy.com/listing/711834...91&ref=sr_gallery-1-31&organic_search_click=1

Bill should recognize this tube construction.  Here is another link that should make it easier.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/686649...91&ref=sr_gallery-1-28&organic_search_click=1

GE built


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.etsy.com/listing/711834...91&ref=sr_gallery-1-31&organic_search_click=1
> 
> Bill should recognize this tube construction.  Here is another link that should make it easier.
> 
> ...



Funny how both ads are listed as CBS/Hytron yet neither have tubes that are marked CBS/Hytron….only CBS.  I honestly don't know what the relationship was between CBS and Hytron, although judging by the sound, I will say the 5692 that is labeled with both CBS and Hytron was NOT made by GE.  

I do, however, know about this.  The SLA 70 was my very first tube amp.  As interesting as the description on the tubes themselves, it's interesting to see him advertising 6SN7's plugged into sockets intended for 6SL7's....


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 11, 2019)

Jeff is a decent enough guy but yeah some of the ads are a little misleading. I know what you mean about the SLA 70, I do not use 6SN7’s there myself.

Occasionally he will list actual manufacturers but I have a feeling with all the tubes he lists, descriptions do suffer at times. I do like the fact that he tries to hear specific tubes but in my conversations with him, he has no single tube setup at this time.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Jeff is a decent enough guy but yeah some of the ads are a little misleading. I know what you mean about the SLA 70, I do not use 6SN7’s there myself.
> 
> Occasionally he will list actual manufacturers but I have a feeling with all the tubes he lists, descriptions do suffer at times. I do like the fact that he tries to hear specific tubes but in my conversations with him, he has no single tube setup at this time.



Seems like at 1/3rd the gain a 6SN7 wouldn't get close to driving the amp to full output. But can't say I ever tried a 6SN7 in mine when I had it, so who knows.  I know someone that could find out though.  LOL!!
What's most disappointing is it looks like that poor little amp hasn't been cleaned since it was made.   Makes me sad just to look at it.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Seems like at 1/3rd the gain a 6SN7 wouldn't get close to driving the amp to full output. But can't say I ever tried a 6SN7 in mine when I had it, so who knows.  I know someone that could find out though.  LOL!!
> What's most disappointing is it looks like that poor little amp hasn't been cleaned since it was made.   Makes me sad just to look at it.



Lol, now now, not everyone can exhibit the same traits as an @bcowen, they can only aspire.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Lol, now now, not everyone can exhibit the same traits as an @bcowen, they can only aspire.



Windex is cheap.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ode to the Schiit EITR

I had no idea what Gen 5 USB would do to improve upon the USB feed to my ModiMB, that I was not getting with my Wyrd.
I lament that Schiit has chosen to let the EITR go from the line-up, but I must assume that the new USB will be incorporated in their ModiMB, eliminating the need. It is an essential part of the signal path for the ModiMB, and the difference was astounding upon putting it in the place of Wyrd.

My Schiit Headphone system is now complete: USB to EITR, SPDIF to ModiMB, ModiMB to Valhalla 2, Brimar CV4033 valves, Sennheiser 6XX HPs.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Windex is cheap.



Lol I figured you would have some esoteric Cary polish laying around.

I got the two extension sockets completed for the Schiit project, thanks for your help on those, you did all the hard work. 

I built a 7n7 to 6sn7 adapter myself, I was not real pleased with the Loktal socket I used but it is functional, and the tube stays put, that is about all I could hope for. 

I am adding a mouse ear Tung Sol, Melz 1578,  CBS/Hytron 5692, a National Union black glass tube that tests exceptionally, and I may change out the tall body 7n7 with an actual Frankie. I considered adding a Mullard but I have poured enough cash into this project thus far lol. The folks who make it to Schiit will have some excellent choices. I am leaving the RCA grey glass, VT 231's, etc.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 11, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Lol I figured you would have some esoteric Cary polish laying around



Are you kidding?  Bill hasn't even removed the plastic covers from his sofa and love seat.  Do you really think he's removed the clear protective film from his audio gear?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Lol I figured you would have some esoteric Cary polish laying around.
> 
> I got the two extension sockets completed for the Schiit project, thanks for your help on those, you did all the hard work.
> 
> ...



You should most definitely replace the 7N7 with a real Frankie.  And I hope you gave that poor Melz some break-in time.  Did you ever have a chance to listen to the one you sent me (Tube #1)?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Are you kidding?  Bill hasn't even removed the plastic covers from his sofa and love seat.  Do you really think he's removed the clear protective film from his audio gear?



That plastic is supposed to be removed?  Crap.  Why am I always the last to find out about these things?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I got the two extension sockets completed for the Schiit project, thanks for your help on those, you did all the hard work.



Thanks for doing the pin soldering on those. I haven't perfected the technique on that just yet, and the result is a bit underwhelming. Electrically sound, but not going to win any awards for appearance.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You should most definitely replace the 7N7 with a real Frankie.  And I hope you gave that poor Melz some break-in time.  Did you ever have a chance to listen to the one you sent me (Tube #1)?



I have listened to the Melz off and on and it is mids forward like a lot of other Melz to me, it is by no means the quality of some of the others I listen to but I thought it was pretty representative. I had not cooked it a lot or redone the pins since they looked pretty decent on this one.  I have not had others check it out yet but I will sometime soon.


----------



## TK16

Found a dirt cheap crap testing Blackburn ECC82 square getter 1957 single. Maybe worth a shot to have an idea on how these sound?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-EC...GE-GETR-LOW-TESTING-VINTAGE-1957/283577376299


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Found a dirt cheap crap testing Blackburn ECC82 square getter 1957 single. Maybe worth a shot to have an idea on how these sound?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-EC...GE-GETR-LOW-TESTING-VINTAGE-1957/283577376299



One triode gasping for its last breath and the other already six feet under.  I would have spelled shot with an 'i' instead of an 'o'.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> One triode gasping for its last breath and the other already six feet under.  I would have spelled shot with an 'i' instead of an 'o'.


You got me there! Just trying to keep people away from the proper testing ECC82 like this auction.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-MATCH...T-LONG-PLATE-SQUARE-GETTERS-1955/153574724215


----------



## bcowen

Hey @TK16 I found something for you.  A good backup in case something ever happens to your 752:  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-GE...063105?hash=item420228b281:g:YskAAOSwumJc87s4







But here's the really funny part.  They won't even use their own tubes in their equipment.  Guess they too knew how bad their tubes suck.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> You got me there! Just trying to keep people away from the proper testing ECC82 like this auction.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-MATCH...T-LONG-PLATE-SQUARE-GETTERS-1955/153574724215



You got ME there.  I don't know a thing about Brimars, so have no clue if you're serious.  Touche'.  

_Somebody_ thought they were a good deal, 'cause they're gone...


----------



## TK16 (Aug 11, 2019)

bcowen said:


> You got ME there.  I don't know a thing about Brimars, so have no clue if you're serious.  Touche'.
> 
> _Somebody_ thought they were a good deal, 'cause they're gone...


I won that auction really great tubes for the money.
Got to add about that Mullard will likely be noisy with those Schiit testing numbers.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> I won that auction really great tubes for the money.
> Got to add about that Mullard will likely be noisy with those Schiit testing numbers.



I used to have an AVO Mk 4. Very thorough tester, but what a monumental PITA it was to use.  Makes me appreciate my 752A even more.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Hey @TK16 I found something for you.  A good backup in case something ever happens to your 752:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-GE...063105?hash=item420228b281:g:YskAAOSwumJc87s4
> 
> ...


The innards look fantastic, but I'll pass with no GE tube.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> The innards look fantastic, but I'll pass with no GE tube.



Maybe you'll like this one better.  Sweeeeeeet condition, and just scored for 1/3rd of what it's worth. But it was the carpet that caught my eye...pretty nice, huh? 

Specifically asking the seller to ship it in a box.  LOL!


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Maybe you'll like this one better.  Sweeeeeeet condition, and just scored for 1/3rd of what it's worth. But it was the carpet that caught my eye...pretty nice, huh?
> 
> Specifically asking the seller to ship it in a box.  LOL!


Yeah I would ask about how it will be shipped, heard someone sent "somebody here" a mint tester with 0% padding. Just chuck a stamp on the suitcase and leave it at that.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Yeah I would ask about how it will be shipped, heard someone sent "somebody here" a mint tester with 0% padding. Just chuck a stamp on the suitcase and leave it at that.



Really?  Man, if that had been me I'd be really pissed.  And no matter how long ago it happened, I'd probably _still_ be pissed.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Really?  Man, if that had been me I'd be really pissed.  And no matter how long ago it happened, I'd probably _still_ be pissed.


Heard the tester couldn't even have a decent burial with most of the body in at least 15 states.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

TK16 said:


> Bargain right here. Untested but nice price imo.
> .....://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Western-Electric-396A-2C51-Audio-Vacuum-Tubes-Pair/132340743695


Five.
Hundred.
U.
S.
Dollars.
Amazing thing, supply and demand. _Ah, what the hell. I'd rather want someone spending money on that instead of bombs_.


----------



## TK16

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Five.
> Hundred.
> U.
> S.
> ...


Amazingly low price for an untested pair! What can go wrong?


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> With all due respect, Rosso di Montalcino, as a rule of thumb, keeps well for 8 years. I would not go for anything earlier than 2011 or 2012, but 2016 may have been the best year ever.


 I listened to ODD's advice and grabbed some of the 2016. Hopefully I will taste some this weekend.


----------



## TK16

@bcowen , Is this the same seller you got that broken one during shipping?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Heathkit-Model-TT-1-Tube-Tester-Nice/153598652929


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> @bcowen , Is this the same seller you got that broken one during shipping?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Heathkit-Model-TT-1-Tube-Tester-Nice/153598652929



No.  I think Ebay has new requirements that you must have at least a double-digit IQ. That guy didn't qualify so they probably booted him.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I listened to ODD's advice and grabbed some of the 2016. Hopefully I will taste some this weekend.



Which amp are you putting those in?  Might be a bit unstable in the Vali.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Which amp are you putting those in?  Might be a bit unstable in the Vali.



Some music goes better with wine.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> No.  I think Ebay has new requirements that you must have at least a double-digit IQ. That guy didn't qualify so they probably booted him.


Would an IQ of 9.5 be rounded up to 10?


----------



## TK16

For ya all Vali 2 guys, high testing 1958 WE 396A single. Cheap.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Electric-396A-2C51-6N3-Square-Getter-10-1958-NOS/362698562775


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Would an IQ of 9.5 be rounded up to 10?



Technically it would probably have to be 9.51, but this guy was missing the first 9 anyway.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> For ya all Vali 2 guys, high testing 1958 WE 396A single. Cheap.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Electric-396A-2C51-6N3-Square-Getter-10-1958-NOS/362698562775



Not sure if it was this same auction, but just bought one for $38 testing above NOS values with matched triodes (or at least claimed so). If it was this same auction, thanks!  Need something new to play with when my Vali 2 arrives.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Not sure if it was this same auction, but just bought one for $38 testing above NOS values with matched triodes (or at least claimed so). If it was this same auction, thanks!  Need something new to play with when my Vali 2 arrives.



I considered buying that but I can never tell when @TK16 is kidding lol. I am bidding on a used Vali 2 since I missed out on the $100 B stock from Schiit.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SCHIIT-AMP...hash=item23c33856ef:m:m5DLzsDKt78z45xZ9XPkDCg

Here is something I found when searching for Schiit products. The ad reads as though the cable is gold plated where it should be just the connectors, I like the concept but not the price, I have built some for friends with Schiit stacks that have flexibility so the cable does not lift the back end of the top most unit when plugged in.


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> I considered buying that but I can never tell when @TK16 is kidding lol. I am bidding on a used Vali 2 since I missed out on the $100 B stock from Schiit.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/SCHIIT-AMP...hash=item23c33856ef:m:m5DLzsDKt78z45xZ9XPkDCg
> 
> Here is something I found when searching for Schiit products. The ad reads as though the cable is gold plated where it should be just the connectors, I like the concept but not the price, I have built some for friends with Schiit stacks that have flexibility so the cable does not lift the back end of the top most unit when plugged in.


No worries that WE 396A, appears tube is noisy and microphonic. Based on visual inspection.


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> No worries that WE 396A, appears tube is noisy and microphonic. Based on visual inspection.



I see folks selling adapters for those down to ECC88/6922, that is correct right?


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> I see folks selling adapters for those down to ECC88/6922, that is correct right?


Yeah 2C51 to ECC88.


----------



## Ripper2860

Here's what I use on VH2 ...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GARAGE1217...-6DJ8-ECC88-TUBE-SOCKET-ADAPTER-/263720639705

You can also purchase directly from the Garage1217 site.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Here's what I use on VH2 ...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GARAGE1217...-6DJ8-ECC88-TUBE-SOCKET-ADAPTER-/263720639705
> 
> You can also purchase directly from the Garage1217 site.



That looks to be well made, I am pretty busy with other projects but I will explore some of those tubes in the Vali sometime. I had some for the Valhalla 2 but that was a while back and I sold them as a group.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I considered buying that but I can never tell when @TK16 is kidding lol.



I have you covered, Tom.  Saw this when I bought the WE and got it for you.  Way overpriced, but knowing how much you love GE's I figured you were worth it.  What are friends for, right?  




 




Paladin79 said:


> I am bidding on a used Vali 2 since I missed out on the $100 B stock from Schiit.



Had that in my watch list. Since I already got one, I'll stay out of the bidding.  Hope you get it!


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> No worries that WE 396A, appears tube is noisy and microphonic. Based on visual inspection.



Yeah, you're probably right.  But nothing a hammer won't fix.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I have you covered, Tom. Saw this when I bought the WE and got it for you. Way overpriced, but knowing how much you love GE's I figured you were worth it. What are friends for, right?



Let me get this straight, it goes against my better nature to pay more for a single tube than the amp costs but it is ok to pay more for the adapter than a particular tube? Ok, I guess that makes sense. If you seriously send me that tube we may have to do another @bcowen tube challenge.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> I have you covered, Tom.  Saw this when I bought the WE and got it for you.  Way overpriced, but knowing how much you love GE's I figured you were worth it.  What are friends for, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd go for this if I were in the hunt for GE 5670's. I'd go for 3 sets of 8 to save money.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Oc...6386-Fairchild-660-670-BangyBang/302877811421


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Let me get this straight, it goes against my better nature to pay more for a single tube than the amp costs but it is ok to pay more for the adapter than a particular tube? Ok, I guess that makes sense. If you seriously send me that tube we may have to do another @bcowen tube challenge.



I was only kidding.  I would never spend actual money on a GE...even for you.   

What's worrisome is that auction shows 876 of these sold.  Who knows how many buyers account for that quantity, but what *is* known is there are 876 pieces of garbage floating around out there.  That makes me sad.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I was only kidding.  I would never spend actual money on a GE...even for you.
> 
> What's worrisome is that auction shows 876 of these sold.  Who knows how many buyers account for that quantity, but what *is* known is there are 876 pieces of garbage floating around out there.  That makes me sad.



Now, now, think of it as 876 purchases that could have been for better quality tubes that might still be available. 

I am going to be sending you a couple bottles of wine though including a highly rated red I showed earlier. Just cause you were a good sport during the tube challenge.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Now, now, think of it as 876 purchases that could have been for better quality tubes that might still be available.
> 
> I am going to be sending you a couple bottles of wine though including a highly rated red I showed earlier. Just cause you were a good sport during the tube challenge.



Sweeeeet!  I mean sending them, not the wine itself I hope.    Most gracious of you regardless.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Now, now, think of it as 876 purchases that could have been for better quality tubes that might still be available.



Or they could have spent a little more and bought a genuine NOS Frankie. Glad they didn't though...so I could. LOL!


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 14, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Or they could have spent a little more and bought a genuine NOS Frankie. Glad they didn't though...so I could. LOL!


Hell's Ducks!!! Stop distracting me with other tube numbers as you swoop in and buy up all the rare tubes!

Nice price.

I have maybe a half dozen frankies so that is plenty for now. I am fairly well set on what I want to send to Jason so I will concentrate on other tubes for a while. It is a GE branded 7n7 I will be including in with the 6sn7's etc. It tests quite well and I have listened to it for several hours.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hell's Ducks!!! Stop distracting me with other tube numbers as you swoop in and buy up all the rare tubes!
> 
> Nice price.
> 
> I have maybe a half dozen frankies so that is plenty for now. I am fairly well set on what I want to send to Jason so I will concentrate on other tubes for a while. It is a GE branded 7n7 I will be including in with the 6sn7's etc. It tests quite well and I have listened to it for several hours.



Wait until I get started on the 300B's....

I have two genuine Frankies that are GE labeled. Fortunately they weren't actually made by GE.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Wait until I get started on the 300B's....
> 
> I have two genuine Frankies that are GE labeled. Fortunately they weren't actually made by GE.



I know and yet I would have felt bad including something branded GE in the tube challenge. I was trying to find as pure examples as I could.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm starting to think Bill was starved for attention as a child.


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm starting to think Bill was starved for attention as a child.


I tend to agree, some people just post for a laugh. But I do believe it is a noble calling and I would never post any opinions on that though. Take this with a grain of salt.


----------



## Ripper2860

Done.


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> Done.


Thanks my fries needed the salt.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm starting to think Bill was starved for attention as a child.



Yeah, I was. Had to walk 5 miles to and from school barefoot in the snow, got only a small bowl of rice for dinner each night (but we got a little meat in it on Sundays), and only had rocks and sticks to play with.  Pretty amazing I turned out as wonderful as I did, huh?  .


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I was. Had to walk 5 miles to and from school barefoot in the snow, got only a small bowl of rice for dinner each night (but we got a little meat in it on Sundays), and only had rocks and sticks to play with.  Pretty amazing I turned out as wonderful as I did, huh?  .


For that outburst, I will be putting in a max bid for you. Say $200? And I promise to stop bidding at $198. Low starting bid for your favorite brand. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ELECTRONIC...6c0abc068cb59e2fffad566|iid:1&redirect=mobile


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 14, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I was. Had to walk 5 miles to and from school barefoot in the snow, got only a small bowl of rice for dinner each night (but we got a little meat in it on Sundays), and only had rocks and sticks to play with.  Pretty amazing I turned out as wonderful as I did, huh?  .



That's nothing.  At least you had a bowl ...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I was. Had to walk 5 miles to and from school barefoot in the snow, got only a small bowl of rice for dinner each night (but we got a little meat in it on Sundays), and only had rocks and sticks to play with.  Pretty amazing I turned out as wonderful as I did, huh?  .



Wait you had rocks and sticks as toys? If I had not been born a boy, I would have had no toys at all!   (I may have borrowed that from Rodney Dangerfield)


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Wait you had rocks and sticks as toys?



Yeah, but all we could afford were used ones.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Yeah, but all we could afford were used ones.


Hey bro did you also clothes "shop" at those unattended clothing drop off units?


----------



## TK16 (Aug 15, 2019)

This seller has 3 single WE 396A for $40 OBO.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-El...ter-10-1958-NOS-test-score-5-400/362726722405
Unfortunately @bcowen paid his pair full price and not an offer possibly? Thank him for the $2 raise in price, not including the extra 14 cents or so in taxes.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> This seller has 3 single WE 396A for $40 OBO.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-El...ter-10-1958-NOS-test-score-5-400/362726722405
> Unfortunately @bcowen paid his pair full price and not an offer possibly? Thank him for the $2 raise in price, not including the extra 14 cents or so in taxes.



I only bought one. If I buy another, the remaining two will be offered at $42, and then the last one at $44?  The early bird gets the....least sleep?  

I did, however, just land this.  Been in my Ebay watch list for 4 months.  Bet you're going to be super jealous once you figure out what it is.  LOL!


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Let me get this straight, it goes against my better nature to pay more for a single tube than the amp costs but it is ok to pay more for the adapter than a particular tube? Ok, I guess that makes sense. If you seriously send me that tube we may have to do another @bcowen tube challenge.



You should totally do another tube smackdown. Bcowen was a worthy guinea pig, send him some some "native" tubes this time round (it'll keep the contest on topic). Should much less work since you won't need to disguise the tube bases. Just dip the tubes in Plasti-kote and toss 'em in the mail


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> You should totally do another tube smackdown. Bcowen was a worthy guinea pig, send him some some "native" tubes this time round (it'll keep the contest on topic). Should much less work since you won't need to disguise the tube bases. Just dip the tubes in Plasti-kote and toss 'em in the mail



True, I will certainly consider it once I get freed up from a few other obligations.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> You should totally do another tube smackdown. Bcowen was a worthy guinea pig, send him some some "native" tubes this time round (it'll keep the contest on topic). Should much less work since you won't need to disguise the tube bases. Just dip the tubes in Plasti-kote and toss 'em in the mail



Why do I always have to be the pig? I already had a neglected childhood....


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Why do I always have to be the pig? I already had a neglected childhood....


I've been told "it builds character".


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I've been told "it builds character".



@Ripper2860 is the character 'round here.  One is enough.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> I only bought one. If I buy another, the remaining two will be offered at $42, and then the last one at $44?  The early bird gets the....least sleep?
> 
> I did, however, just land this.  Been in my Ebay watch list for 4 months.  Bet you're going to be super jealous once you figure out what it is.  LOL!


Lmao, no idea, only have gear for 9 winners. That's virgin territory for me. What is the tube?


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Lmao, no idea, only have gear for 9 winners. That's virgin territory for me. What is the tube?



It's an Amperite 5H-12, of course.  

Seriously, it goes in the Weston tester and acts similar to a voltage regulator. Very little info available on these things, and this particular tube number is like almost nonexistent. Probably stashed up by all the guys with Weston 918 testers.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> It's an Amperite 5H-12, of course.
> 
> Seriously, it goes in the Weston tester and acts similar to a voltage regulator. Very little info available on these things, and this particular tube number is like almost nonexistent. Probably stashed up by all the guys with Weston 918 testers.


Missed the words under that pic, lol.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Missed the words under that pic, lol.



 Yeah, I was wondering how _you_ wouldn't know what a 5H-12 was.  LOL!

I can't even figure out their numbering scheme.  I'm guessing the 5 is a voltage or milliamp rating, but that's only a guess.  The rest of the digits?  Maybe just ones they hadn't used on some other tube at that point.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Following @Paladin79, added a tube DAC - aune T1 Mk3, replacing Mimby, to Vali 2.

 
2 x Sylvie 6J5GT in aune T1, 2 x Sylvie 7A4 (VT-192) in Vali 2. 

Incredible improvement of resolution and soundstage, and awesome euphonic sound. And, so many more options to combine the tubes.


----------



## TK16

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Following @Paladin79, added a tube DAC - aune T1 Mk3, replacing Mimby, to Vali 2.
> 
> 
> 2 x Sylvie 6J5GT in aune T1, 2 x Sylvie 7A4 (VT-192) in Vali 2.
> ...


I have a tube dac too, right now using the Gumby though. I run my MJ2 as preamp and LP as headphone amp. So I have 2 or 3 pairs in my setup.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 17, 2019)

Well done ODD, for the money I think that is an incredible combination. Now if only @bcowen would pay attention, he might learn as well. 

I certainly listened to your advice on the 2016 Caparzo Rosso.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well done ODD, for the money I think that is an incredible combination. Now if only @bcowen would pay attention, he might learn as well.



My skills at paying attention rate right up there with my pin soldering skills.  Certainly not a desirable example.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Following @Paladin79, added a tube DAC - aune T1 Mk3, replacing Mimby, to Vali 2.
> 
> 
> 2 x Sylvie 6J5GT in aune T1, 2 x Sylvie 7A4 (VT-192) in Vali 2.
> ...



I'm on record here (in more than one instance) for saying there's no such thing as too many tubes.  I may have to retract that.  

Kidding, obviously. If it sounds good, that's all that matters and _everything_ else is irrelevant.


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> I have a tube dac too, right now using the Gumby though. I run my MJ2 as preamp and LP as headphone amp. So I have 2 or 3 pairs in my setup.



I may grab an MJ2 since I do not have one. I have multiple combinations I can use including a Gumby, or Topping DAC, Freya + as a tube buffer, then some solid state options as well but for the money and space saving, the Aune to Vali is a very nice tube system IMHO.


----------



## Ripper2860

Y'all are NUTS!


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 17, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Y'all are NUTS!



Well when this system is in place and you actually hear it, you begin to understand. You are separating the triodes instead of shielding between them, the biggest trick is finding good sounding 6j5's and 7A4's. It takes time, and money and patience but once you get that down, the results can be golden. There is a separation and spacing that is not achievable otherwise and tube sound, lots of tube sound. 

I had to split up my system for some other testing and truthfully I found myself listening to the Aune/Vali combination a lot more than other combinations. A complete package for very little money, I just consider it getting the most out of what you have in front of you.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Y'all are NUTS!



Pot, kettle, black?

And the more nuts the better for blind pigs like me.  Better odds.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I certainly listened to your advice on the 2016 Caparzo Rosso.



Did you like it?


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> I may grab an MJ2 since I do not have one. I have multiple combinations I can use including a Gumby, or Topping DAC, Freya + as a tube buffer, then some solid state options as well but for the money and space saving, the Aune to Vali is a very nice tube system IMHO.


Fantastic amp for the price, was a huge step up from the Ly2.


----------



## bcowen

What @Paladin79 needs to do is get an MJ2 *and*  Lyr 3, compare them, and then let me know if I should upgrade.  

Seriously, my next HP amp will have 300B's in it one way or the other (hopefully as part of the circuit).


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 17, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Did you like it?


I have not tried it yet but will soon.

Tonight in fact


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm not saying it sounds bad.  Just saying Y'all are NUTS!


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm running out of things to try.  Perhaps I'll give that a shot.  Can't have y'all out- NUTS me.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Ripper2860 said:


> Y'all are NUTS!



Aww...C'mon, you have had your suspicions for a while...  And by the way, I buy the Deluxe Mixture, with more Filberts and fewer peanuts.


----------



## TK16

Put something in my signature you guys may be interested in.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Put something in my signature you guys may be interested in.



Are these still available?

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/Western-Electric-300B-1952-genuine-NOS-matched-pair-hickok-752-tested-$199-free-shipping.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> What @Paladin79 needs to do is get an MJ2 *and*  Lyr 3, compare them, and then let me know if I should upgrade.
> 
> Seriously, my next HP amp will have 300B's in it one way or the other (hopefully as part of the circuit).



I will consider it, they are about the only Schiit tube gear I have not owned that I might own. No sense getting a Saga when I have a Freya +

I am not saying the Aune/vali combo was better or worse than other amps. All things are relative and the use of single triode tubes added a new dimension that had a very nice effect on the overall sound. I did not feel the same when I tried dual tubes in a BH Crack now did I think the SQ beat the Crack, if just made for a fun listen that was captivating to me. Normally recorded albums were starting to sound more like binaural.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Are these still available?
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/Western-Electric-300B-1952-genuine-NOS-matched-pair-hickok-752-tested-$199-free-shipping.


lmao, you altered the link!


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> lmao, you altered the link!



That is the way I remember the link, I could not get to Paypal on my phone fast enough. I hope to receive the 300B's next week but earlier is fine.


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> That is the way I remember the link, I could not get to Paypal on my phone fast enough. I hope to receive the 300B's next week but earlier is fine.


I think $199 is a fair price, but I am going to have to charge $5,000 for shipping (economy).


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> I think $199 is a fair price, but I am going to have to charge $5,000 for shipping (economy).



I was going to have a good friend pick mine up. Perhaps friend is not the right word, how about "associate."  Just be ready for a knock at your door in the near future, I believe the guy answers to Guido but just be sure to smile a lot and be careful of your body language and you should be fine. Be careful reaching into pockets, no furtive gestures. Come to think of it you should just stand by your door with tubes in hand and wait for him. It would make your life simpler.


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> I was going to have a good friend pick mine up. Perhaps friend is not the right word, how about "associate."  Just be ready for a knock at your door in the near future, I believe the guy answers to Guido but just be sure to smile a lot and be careful of your body language and you should be fine. Be careful reaching into pockets, no furtive gestures. Come to think of it you should just stand by your door with tubes in hand and wait for him. It would make your life simpler.


Good thing only about 30ish people here who know where I live.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> lmao, you altered the link!



Does that mean they're NOT still available?


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Does that mean they're NOT still available?


I try not to sell stuff I do not have, better for business. However I have the stock tubes that came with the LP that I can let go for $199 shipped. Brand new boxes never opened E. H. 6922.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> I think $199 is a fair price, but I am going to have to charge $5,000 for shipping (economy).



Wait...the link stated free shipping.  Must have been a typo?  No biggie.  I'll be happy to pay the $5k for shipping as true NOS 50's WE's would probably fetch $10k in an instant on Ebay.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> I try not to sell stuff I do not have, better for business. However I have the stock tubes that came with the LP that I can let go for $199 shipped. Brand new boxes never opened E. H. 6922.



Ah...the modern day equivalent of a GE: an EH 6922.  I'll switch to solid state first.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Wait...the link stated free shipping.  Must have been a typo?  No biggie.  I'll be happy to pay the $5k for shipping as true NOS 50's WE's would probably fetch $10k in an instant on Ebay.


Oh I thought you just wanted the single for $5,000, pair is 10,000 shipping (bigger box).


----------



## bcowen

No wonder they're selling these.  Of course, I imagine even a GE sounds better if it's pushed all the way into the socket.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CARY-SLM-1...032789?hash=item5222046995:g:uH8AAOSwpUVdQkme







As an added bonus, you get two new tubes!  Not sure which of the ones listed are new, but none of them are used in this amp.  Perhaps they're hoping your preamp can use these?


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> No wonder they're selling these.  Of course, I imagine even a GE sounds better if it's pushed all the way into the socket.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/CARY-SLM-1...032789?hash=item5222046995:g:uH8AAOSwpUVdQkme
> 
> ...


Funny stuff!


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 18, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Did you like it?



ODD I love that wine, not too dry, hints of cherry and perhaps other fruit. My wife and I both thought it had decent legs, you will know what that means but @bcowen will be scratching his head as he reads this lol.

 It went well with steak, fresh fruit, and dark chocolate. I have one of my employees looking for more of the 2016, he frequents a lot of stores with great wine selections.

Oh and Friday I had a young lady listen to the Fotons (one relatively new, one with 100 hours on it), she could hear a slight difference in volume but had a hard time picking one over the other consistently. She is just a musician friend so I am not really sure how adept of a listener she is so I will try more folks and send them on to Schiit next month.

It may be soldering the pins made a difference, of the folks I have had try the tubes thus far, as well as my own opinion I have not had anyone say there is much difference on SQ between the two. I have yet to get my friend with the exceptional hearing over but I have run the tubes by a few people who did well in some audio testing I was involved in locally.


----------



## bcowen (Aug 18, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> ODD I love that wine, not too dry, hints of cherry and perhaps other fruit. My wife and I both thought it had decent legs, you will know what that means but @bcowen will be scratching his head as he reads this lol.



I know what legs are, so no worries.  



Paladin79 said:


> Oh and Friday I had a young lady listen to the Fotons (one relatively new, one with 100 hours on it), she could hear a slight difference in volume but had a hard time picking one over the other consistently. She is just a musician friend so I am not really sure how adept of a listener she is so I will try more folks and send them on to Schiit next month.
> 
> It may be soldering the pins made a difference, of the folks I have had try the tubes thus far, as well as my own opinion I have not had anyone say there is much difference on SQ between the two. I have yet to get my friend with the exceptional hearing over but I have run the tubes by a few people who did well in some audio testing I was involved in locally.



Although it's making me somewhat nauseous to write this so early in the morning , your conjecture on the pin soldering is likely spot on.  I've had a pair of '58's in the Cary all week gathering hours. With the pre-'57 rib plate versions of the Foton all but disappearing from Ebay, I wanted to do a reality check and see how big the difference was between the ribbed and non-ribbed versions.  Something changed in 1960 as the '60 (and later) versions are audibly inferior to the '50's.  But what about the '57's, '58's, and '59's, all of which I have?  Well, I stuck one of the 100+ hour 58's in the Lyr last night, and it sounded gritty and was rather fatiguing (and 1958 was one of the most important years in the annals of human history for reasons beyond just the Foton.  ).  Grabbing hold of the top of the tube (I have asbestos lined fingers) and twisting it back and forth in the socket caused a change in the sound. Twist it one way, and the grit went away. Letting it return to normal brought the grit back.  So I took it upstairs and resoldered the pins. Back into the Lyr, and......no grit. Twisting it resulted in no detectable sonic change. So it's more than highly probable the gritty, fatiguing quality was due to a marginal solder connection in one or more of the pins.  I think there's enough evidence from experiences reported here that the pin soldering on these old Fotons (and Melz too) is at least suspect. Whether it was due to their technique, solder quality, process, or whatever we'll never know, but we *do* know there is a potential for an issue there. So this long break-in process (and I'm not the only one experiencing and reporting it) could very well be due to the soldering process when these were originally made and some breakdown in the 60+ year interim. The other '58 sounded fine on first try. No grit, no fatigue, no difference in sound when twisting. But I resoldered the pins on it anyway mostly 'cause I'm just anal that way.

Of more importance, once re-soldered the difference between the non-ribbed '58 and the ribbed '52 I was listening to are very minor, if there's any difference at all. I *think* the '52 sounds a tad better, but I have no confidence I could reliably pick one over the other blindly.  Go to a '60+, and I have no doubt I could blindly pick it over any of the '50's -- the difference is pretty substantial. So the good news is that any of the '50's Fotons are really nice tubes to have. The latter '50's still pop up on Ebay every now and then with (relatively) inexpensive prices. Perhaps there's a slight preference for the ribbed plate version, but any difference up against the non-ribs is extremely minor, at least to my ears.

Edit: Forgot to mention that Tom's next project is to put 100+ hours on a '50's Foton without resoldering the pins first, and then compare that to one that is unplayed and also un-resoldered.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> I know what legs are, so no worries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your a better man than me, I would of said the earlier the better on SQ on similar variants of tubes.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> I know what legs are, so no worries.
> ----clipped---
> Of more importance, once re-soldered the difference between the non-ribbed '58 and the ribbed '52 I was listening to are very minor, if there's any difference at all. I *think* the '52 sounds a tad better, but I have no confidence I could reliably pick one over the other blindly.  Go to a '60+, and I have no doubt I could blindly pick it over any of the '50's -- the difference is pretty substantial. So the good news is that any of the '50's Fotons are really nice tubes to have. The latter '50's still pop up on Ebay every now and then with (relatively) inexpensive prices. Perhaps there's a slight preference for the ribbed plate version, but any difference up against the non-ribs is extremely minor, at least to my ears.
> 
> Edit: Forgot to mention that Tom's next project is to put 100+ hours on a '50's Foton without resoldering the pins first, and then compare that to one that is unplayed and also un-resoldered.



First, let me lay bare my credentials.
I am not a DIY guy and am solder adverse. Despite this handicap, I successfully saved a 1578 Melz (A real one) by re-flowing the solder.
Intellectually, I have tried to find a reason that 100+ hours were necessary for my 1951 ribbed-plate FOTONs to settle down and to eliminate the roller-coaster ride of which I was warned.

If solder is the question, re-flowing the solder seems a simple enough solution. If the reason for the roller-coaster has to do with emissions and getters, I would have no clue.

In my current set-up, the Melz 1578 is in my new Classic Saga, and I like how it sounds, compared to signal directly from DAC to Reciever.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 18, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I know what legs are, so no worries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sometimes we hear things and take them for granted as being true. I was trying to use both listening and test equipment to see what difference occurred if any and to keep the tubes as close to identical if I could. I did some more testing today and other than the gain being slightly different between the two tubes I could not measure any change in their audio spectrum. They both seemed to react identically to any frequency I tried. No matter the outcome, I have to be able to understand why something occurs. I ran into the same thing with the Melz 1578, early on I liked the tube and I could not detect much of a change in sound after I replaced the solder in the pins. There is also the problem of listening to a tube and then going back later and listening again and saying it is better or worse now. How do you measure that? It is rare that I listen to solid state amps but I own them, at times, depending on mood, and music whatever changes might occur within our ears it may sound different to me. The other day I had one of my ears pop just by stepping from air conditioning in a car to 90 degree temps and high humidity.

I am glad @bcowen saw this effect himself, otherwise it sounds like I am just trying to argue, or my test subjects do not have his abilities. The tubes he sent me were very well matched so it was a pretty valid test.  After I redid the solder I never did have any graininess and I listened to the 100 hour tube several days in a row.

The Russian solder is very suspect after all this time..

Why reuse that and maybe add a bit of fresh solder on top of it? I know and trust Kester, and they have a long history of making quality products. I can recall hearing horror stories about drywall, flooring, and sink fixtures that had issues after importation. You can get part of the technology right but still have issues with things you take for granted.

I began having issues with a Melz that Bill felt was the worst tube in the batch I sent, I do believe I had replaced the solder in it but I just went through the process again and it cleaned up nicely. Having the tubes in the PVC, adding additional heat, and even doing an hours burn in may have affected this tube a lot.

I just built two more socket extenders for the 6sn7's that will go on to Schiit. I used Cardas 20 awg enamel coated solid wire to make these, very pure copper.These are to be used inside the PVC, Bill made some very nice extenders to be used inside the LYR 3 or whatever Jason uses.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I also tried to make the point early on that if the Russian solder is suspect, and I really think it is.


I agree with you. Perhaps I should try redoing the solder on some of the '60's Fotons that I think are inferior to the '50's. Now that I have a solder sucker, maybe it's the solder that's making them suck.    (and that's just an attempt at humor...the '60's versions don't suck. They are quite decent tubes and especially so for the money, just not as good as the '50's).



Paladin79 said:


> I just built two more socket extenders for the 6sn7's that will go on to Schiit. I used Cardas 20 awg enamel coated solid wire to make these, very pure copper.These are to be used inside the PVC, Bill made some very nice extenders to be used inside the LYR 3 or whatever Jason uses.



I guess if you have to slum with the Cardas, 'ya gotta use what you have.    I used Neotech in the extenders I sent. One of my favorite chassis wires, and no, I'm not agreeing to any blind test between it and the Cardas. LOL

I just got some more of the octal sockets from Xulingmrs. His ad showed the sockets to be identical to what I sent in the extenders I sent you, yet these latest ones are different. They don't have the split inner contacts which I really like because they grip the tube nicely at the outset, and look like they'd be very easy to re-tension if they loosen up with use.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-8-pin...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649







And this is what the ones that just arrived look like. Still nicely made, just disappointed in the difference on the contacts. I sent Xuling a message about it. I've bought a lot of stuff from him (or them, whatever) and have always been happy with the purchases. Be interested to see how he responds on this.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I agree with you. Perhaps I should try redoing the solder on some of the '60's Fotons that I think are inferior to the '50's. Now that I have a solder sucker, maybe it's the solder that's making them suck.    (and that's just an attempt at humor...the '60's versions don't suck. They are quite decent tubes and especially so for the money, just not as good as the '50's).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really like those sockets you sent, be sure and let me know if you can get more.

On the Cardas sometimes you just have to get by with what you have lol.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Your a better man than me, I would of said the earlier the better on SQ on similar variants of tubes.



Maybe the later '50's ones still sound good because they were vying for a Sputnik contract.


----------



## Paladin79

Obviously the solder is newer in the tubes from the 60’s but give them another 5-10 years and see what happens.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Maybe the later '50's ones still sound good because they were vying for a Sputnik contract.


Don`t trust the Soviets, heard a rumor that that nuclear explosion was due to mostly Chinese tubes and back up GE`s.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Don`t trust the Soviets, heard a rumor that that nuclear explosion was due to mostly Chinese tubes and back up GE`s.



You mean Chernobyl?  That was probably due to a bad solder connection in a Foton they had in the control system.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Obviously the solder is newer in the tubes from the 60’s but give them another 5-10 years and see what happens.



Didn't mention it in the previous post, but both of the 1578's I ended up selling to you had bad pin solder. One howled like crazy in one channel, and the other had a static-ey sound in one channel. I reflowed and added a bit of new solder to both and the noises went away.  Didn't fully replace it as I didn't have a solder sucker at the time...


----------



## Robert Padgett

TK16 said:


> Don`t trust the Soviets, heard a rumor that that nuclear explosion was due to mostly Chinese tubes and back up GE`s.


The 'New-Clear' Missile? Or is it 'New Cue Lar'?  They were more than happy when Gorbechev accepted all those GE-branded vacuum valves, during Perestroika...who knew they had such a good reputation?


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> You mean Chernobyl?  That was probably due to a bad solder connection in a Foton they had in the control system.


Nah the very recent explosion at a military site. They were going for the retro look. They should of used 50's Foton/Reflektor 6N3P instead.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Didn't mention it in the previous post, but both of the 1578's I ended up selling to you had bad pin solder. One howled like crazy in one channel, and the other had a static-ey sound in one channel. I reflowed and added a bit of new solder to both and the noises went away.  Didn't fully replace it as I didn't have a solder sucker at the time...


I could tell they had been re-flowed and knew the time frame on the solder sucker.  That might be fine, I just like to play it safe.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I could tell they had been re-flowed and knew the time frame on the solder sucker.  That might be fine, I just like to play it safe.



I tried sucking the old solder out before I got the proper tool, but it burned my tongue.  

The sucker you directed me to works great. I'd tried a couple different plunger type desoldering pumps before but none of them worked very well. This one really sucks.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> The 'New-Clear' Missile? Or is it 'New Cue Lar'?  They were more than happy when Gorbechev accepted all those GE-branded vacuum valves, during Perestroika...who knew they had such a good reputation?



If Gorbechev had been really smart, he would have made us pay them to take the GE's.


----------



## bcowen

Found something for you @TK16   Nice and portable.  Needs a little cleaning, but even comes with something for the lady in your life -- a vibrator tester.   

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-St...184&pg=2060778&_trksid=p2060778.c100276.m3476


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Found something for you @TK16   Nice and portable.  Needs a little cleaning, but even comes with something for the lady in your life -- a vibrator tester.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Store-Vacuum-Tube-Tester-Pep-Boys-Working-Condition/223549820184?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=1&asc=20140725133649&meid=1b6b5eaaefd54816a984688616252486&pid=100276&rk=4&rkt=4&sd=233311115936&itm=223549820184&pg=2060778&_trksid=p2060778.c100276.m3476


What's up with the do not turn roll chart with tube in socket? Kinda of a deal breaker.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> What's up with the do not turn roll chart with tube in socket? Kinda of a deal breaker.



Yeah, wondered about that myself. Looking at the available controls, the roll chart position must be actually setting the voltages for the socket.  No matter...inclusion of the vibrator tester eclipses all other concerns.


----------



## attmci (Aug 18, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Found something for you @TK16   Nice and portable.  Needs a little cleaning, but even comes with something for the lady in your life -- a vibrator tester.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Store-Vacuum-Tube-Tester-Pep-Boys-Working-Condition/223549820184?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=1&asc=20140725133649&meid=1b6b5eaaefd54816a984688616252486&pid=100276&rk=4&rkt=4&sd=233311115936&itm=223549820184&pg=2060778&_trksid=p2060778.c100276.m3476


Can I use it to burn in 50 tubes simultaneously? I need to burn in each tube of my precious collections for 500 hrs (about 21 days).


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> ODD I love that wine, not too dry, hints of cherry and perhaps other fruit. My wife and I both thought it had decent legs, you will know what that means but @bcowen will be scratching his head as he reads this lol.
> 
> It went well with steak, fresh fruit, and dark chocolate. I have one of my employees looking for more of the 2016, he frequents a lot of stores with great wine selections.



Tom, I am glad you liked that wine. I am not paying much attention to the legs - they just show percentage of alcohol content (or, God forbid, sugar!) IMHO. This Rosso has 13-14% which is on the medium high side, so, yes, some legs.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Robert Padgett said:


> First, let me lay bare my credentials.
> I am not a DIY guy and am solder adverse. Despite this handicap, I successfully saved a 1578 Melz (A real one) by re-flowing the solder.
> Intellectually, I have tried to find a reason that 100+ hours were necessary for my 1951 ribbed-plate FOTONs to settle down and to eliminate the roller-coaster ride of which I was warned.
> 
> ...



What's a "Classic" Saga, if I may ask?


----------



## Ripper2860

The version that came before the newly introduced Saga S and Saga+


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Can I use it to burn in 50 tubes simultaneously? I need to burn in each tube of my precious collections for 500 hrs (about 21 days).



I suppose you could...with enough adapters.   I don't hear any change with burn-in myself, so not worth the trouble.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> Can I use it to burn in 50 tubes simultaneously? I need to burn in each tube of my precious collections for 500 hrs (about 21 days).



I do believe @bcowen may have a different view on tube burn in now.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I do believe @bcowen may have a different view on tube burn in now.



The lengthy burn-in on Fotons? Yes. The rest?  No.  Of course I may change my mind again tomorrow.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The lengthy burn-in on Fotons? Yes. The rest?  No.  Of course I may change my mind again tomorrow.



Foton's and Melz should have their pin solder replaced. Tubes in general I have always felt a couple hours burn in should be fine. Those are my views.

I doubt I will send the Fotons on to Schiit as a pair. Their response would probably be, "ok nice, you have two tubes that sound alike, big deal."


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Foton's and Melz should have their pin solder replaced. Tubes in general I have always felt a couple hours burn in should be fine. Those are my views.
> 
> I doubt I will send the Fotons on to Schiit as a pair. Their response would probably be, "ok nice, you have two tubes that sound alike, big deal."



Then you should send them to me.  Mark them 1 and 2 (or A and B, whatever) and don't let me know which is which. I'd like to know if *I* can hear a difference. No steak dinners involved, although if I can hear a difference and pick them properly you should probably send me plane tickets to Hawaii or something.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 19, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Then you should send them to me.  Mark them 1 and 2 (or A and B, whatever) and don't let me know which is which. I'd like to know if *I* can hear a difference. No steak dinners involved, although if I can hear a difference and pick them properly you should probably send me plane tickets to Hawaii or something.



Before your chance was one in eight, now it is one in two. I already told you one is slightly louder lol. If I cook the 100 hour tube for another 100 hours it would probably be on its last legs. I do want one golden eared listener to check them then I will send them on to you to compare. She moved about 30 miles outside town and I do not see her as often now.

I did run both Fotons in a BH Crack after I changed the caps and they are decent sounding tubes. I then put in the CBS Hytron 5692 that will be going to Jason next month and it was like the sun came out after a rain and angels were singing and I was not wasting 100 hours of my life burning in a tube. lol


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Before your chance was one in eight, now it is one in two. I already told you one is slightly louder lol. If I cook the 100 hour tube for another 100 hours it would probably be on its last legs. I do want one golden eared listener to check them then I will send them on to you to compare. She moved about 30 miles outside town and I do not see her as often now.
> 
> I did run both Fotons in a BH Crack after I changed the caps and they are decent sounding tubes. I then put in the CBS Hytron 5692 that will be going to Jason next month and it was like the sun came out after a rain and angels were singing and I was not wasting 100 hours of my life burning in a tube. lol



While in most every case louder will sound better between otherwise identical components (or tubes), that has to be recognized and accounted for. The songs I picked for the pipe bomb challenge were not just haphazard and random -- I tried to pick songs I was familiar with AND had the same perceived overall loudness so that the results weren't skewed by that and I could leave the Lyr's volume knob untouched. I ended up taking the Yes song out of the rotation because it is recorded at a lower volume and the urge to crank the volume was too overwhelming.  But there are other things to listen for with the Foton, and I think I can get past the influence of the difference in loudness. I'm not proclaiming anything one way or the other here -- I'm just interested to see (hear) for myself. 

And I've never heard angels sing.  Maybe it's my lifestyle?  I have heard utterance of disgust from them with GE's though, and I've actually heard them puke with Philips ECG's.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> While in most every case louder will sound better between otherwise identical components (or tubes), that has to be recognized and accounted for. The songs I picked for the pipe bomb challenge were not just haphazard and random -- I tried to pick songs I was familiar with AND had the same perceived overall loudness so that the results weren't skewed by that and I could leave the Lyr's volume knob untouched. I ended up taking the Yes song out of the rotation because it is recorded at a lower volume and the urge to crank the volume was too overwhelming.  But there are other things to listen for with the Foton, and I think I can get past the influence of the difference in loudness. I'm not proclaiming anything one way or the other here -- I'm just interested to see (hear) for myself.
> 
> And I've never heard angels sing.  Maybe it's my lifestyle?  I have heard utterance of disgust from them with GE's though, and I've actually heard them puke with Philips ECG's.



I realize there are other things to listen for, just saying, even without listening I can tell one tube from the other because of VU meters. I do think it gets a little tougher to do when using one for each channel of a preamp. A/B testing would show it pretty quickly IMO.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I realize there are other things to listen for, just saying, even without listening I can tell one tube from the other because of VU meters. I do think it gets a little tougher to do when using one for each channel of a preamp. A/B testing would show it pretty quickly IMO.



So then what you're saying is there **is** a difference after 100 hours of break-in?


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 19, 2019)

bcowen said:


> So then what you're saying is there **is** a difference after 100 hours of break-in?



Yes, one tube now has age, usage on it, the other one has less.  They no longer match was well as a pair lol.  Did one tube improve after 100 hours?  Nope, it started down the slippery slope toward low emission.  I am exaggerating, it is maybe 4% lower in gain.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> What's a "Classic" Saga, if I may ask?



When they announced Thunderdome with the 'Saga S' and the 'Saga +', Schiit is selling off b-stock Saga at $199. It has become the permanent home of the Melz 1578 and serves as the tube buffer on system two, and it represents an improvement over the Vali 2 as a tube buffer because it has five inputs, two outputs (Yamaha receiver and Magni 3 HP amp) and remote control volume.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Aug 19, 2019)

Robert Padgett said:


> When they announced Thunderdome with the 'Saga S' and the 'Saga +', Schiit is selling off b-stock Saga at $199. It has become the permanent home of the Melz 1578 and serves as the tube buffer on system two, and it represents an improvement over the Vali 2 as a tube buffer because it has five inputs, two outputs (Yamaha receiver and Magni 3 HP amp) and remote control volume.


I know I am a noob, so forgive me, but Vali 2 is a HP amp, and why would a passive preamp need a tube buffer, and especially the tube you liked so much in a true preamp? Sounds like a remote sound control for $199. Hardly an affordable approach, what?


----------



## Robert Padgett (Aug 19, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I know I am a noob, so forgive me, but Vali 2 is a HP amp, and why would a passive preamp need a tube buffer, and especially the tube you liked so much in a true preamp? Sounds like a remote sound control for $199. Hardly an affordable approach, what?



I invested in the Saga at $199, knowing a Vidar or Aegir may be in the future. Half-price of a new Saga +, the preamplifier replaces the Vali 2 on system two. I will output to a Magni 3 for HP listening. Or I can very easily plug the Vali 2 back into the electrical outlet and listen to it as an HP amp, like normal. The remote is a nice feature when I am in bed to adjust volume and the stepped relay attenuator is nice for fine adjustment. I have no use at all for the additional 4 inputs, but they are included. Eventually, when the Saga moves up to system one, I will have one outlet for the speaker system and then run passive to the VH2, and remote volume control for the headphone.

The Saga give you a choice of using it as a passive pre-amp (volume control) or a tube buffer. This is a function also of the remote. I can hear a difference between passive and tube.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I may grab an MJ2 since I do not have one. I have multiple combinations I can use including a Gumby, or Topping DAC, Freya + as a tube buffer, then some solid state options as well but for the money and space saving, the Aune to Vali is a very nice tube system IMHO.


I just cannot go back to Mimby as it sounds dull, veiled and uninvolving, compared to aune T1 DAC. 

I am trying various tube combinations, this one sounds gorgeous:


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 19, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I just cannot go back to Mimby as it sounds dull, veiled and uninvolving, compared to aune T1 DAC.
> 
> I am trying various tube combinations, this one sounds gorgeous:



I like choices and experimenting. How can you tell where you are with any given piece of equipment unless you hear things you like less, or more?  Everything is relative.

I have sold off or given away any tube equipment that lacked the qualities I seek in tube gear; solid state can be really boring for me.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I just cannot go back to Mimby as it sounds dull, veiled and uninvolving, compared to aune T1 DAC.
> 
> I am trying various tube combinations, this one sounds gorgeous:



So help me understand what you're doing. The Aune T1 is a DAC and amp. But I see your 'phones are hooked up to the Vali. Are you using just the DAC section of the Aune and the Vali for amplification?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So help me understand what you're doing. The Aune T1 is a DAC and amp. But I see your 'phones are hooked up to the Vali. Are you using just the DAC section of the Aune and the Vali for amplification?


The Aune uses a solid state amp, when used as a DAC it engages the tube portion and gives a pre-amp output


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Are you using just the DAC section of the Aune and the Vali for amplification?


Yes. So I have a tube DAC and a hybrid HP amp. Two tubes to play with now.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> I know what legs are, so no worries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have finally received a 1951 Foton 6H8C with ribbed plates. The ebay seller from Ukraine is a crook: selling a pair, he put a picture of two tubes: one 1951, and one 1959. I have first received two 1959 (of course). With some push, he sent me one more tube, 1951 this time, a well measuring and perfectly balanced triodes. So, Mimby was reconnected for a test. The tube sounded well right in Vali 2, with just with some minutes heating. Indeed, a very likeable sound signature, and whilst I have not had much time to listen to it, it seems to be in the same league as best 6SN7 tubes that I have.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I have finally received a 1951 Foton 6H8C with ribbed plates. The ebay seller from Ukraine is a crook: selling a pair, he put a picture of two tubes: one 1951, and one 1959. I have first received two 1959 (of course). With some push, he sent me one more tube, 1951 this time, a well measuring and perfectly balanced triodes. So, Mimby was reconnected for a test. The tube sounded well right in Vali 2, with just with some minutes heating. Indeed, a very likeable sound signature, and whilst I have not had much time to listen to it, it seems to be in the same league as best 6SN7 tubes that I have.



Hopefully the solder inside the pins is in good shape and the tube maintains its current quality. 

Can you get any deals on CBS/Hytron 5692's from Europe? That is a very nice tube that can fetch upwards of $150 retail here.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Question: are 6N7 tubes useable instead of 6SN7 (through pinout adapter) or 6J5 in Vali 2?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Question: are 6N7 tubes useable instead of 6SN7 (through pinout adapter) or 6J5 in Vali 2?



I certainly wouldn't sub it myself.  The Vali 2 was designed for the 300 milliamp heater current draw of a 6922 type tube. Haven't heard any horror stories about folks using 6SN7's with 600 milliamp current draws, but the 6N7 pulls 800 milliamps. That's stretching things TOO far, IMO.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I certainly wouldn't sub it myself.  The Vali 2 was designed for the 300 milliamp heater current draw of a 6922 type tube. Haven't heard any horror stories about folks using 6SN7's with 600 milliamp current draws, but the 6N7 pulls 800 milliamps. That's stretching things TOO far, IMO.



Seems right. IIRC the Val2 can max out at 650mA on the heaters.

Question bout the Fotons…
I was listening to my Foton 6SN7 equivalent for the past couple of weeks. The high end seemed to have a more "ringy" quality than I can remember. You guys think this could just be a matter of the burn-in rollercoaster (I'm pretty sure I'd have close to 100 hrs. on it by now) or maybe should I look into reflowing the pins? BTW the tube is a '57 smooth plate (at least I'm assuming it's a '57 since that's the number on the glass - it's supposed to be late 50s regardless)


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Seems right. IIRC the Val2 can max out at 650mA on the heaters.
> 
> Question bout the Fotons…
> I was listening to my Foton 6SN7 equivalent for the past couple of weeks. The high end seemed to have a more "ringy" quality than I can remember. You guys think this could just be a matter of the burn-in rollercoaster (I'm pretty sure I'd have close to 100 hrs. on it by now) or maybe should I look into reflowing the pins? BTW the tube is a '57 smooth plate (at least I'm assuming it's a '57 since that's the number on the glass - it's supposed to be late 50s regardless)



Well, the jury is still out on exactly what's behind the roller coaster of the Fotons.  The bad solder is a more plausible explanation to me as most new tubes hit their stride in 25 hours or less. But if you have close to 100 hours on it and are still riding the 'coaster, I'd definitely re-do the solder.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, the jury is still out on exactly what's behind the roller coaster of the Fotons.  The bad solder is a more plausible explanation to me as most new tubes hit their stride in 25 hours or less. But if you have close to 100 hours on it and are still riding the 'coaster, I'd definitely re-do the solder.




The jury is not out for me. It is the solder. I had a friend with exceptional hearing listen earlier today and one hour, or 100 hours, no difference other than slight change in gain. Replace the solder and move on.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> I certainly wouldn't sub it myself.  The Vali 2 was designed for the 300 milliamp heater current draw of a 6922 type tube. Haven't heard any horror stories about folks using 6SN7's with 600 milliamp current draws, but the 6N7 pulls 800 milliamps. That's stretching things TOO far, IMO.


Thank you. Crystal clear


----------



## Wes S

Hey ya'll!  I am thinking about adding a Vali 2, to my work rig, which consist of a Mimby and Jotunheim.  I plan to use the Vali 2 with my iems, and as a preamp for my Jotunheim.  My question is does the Vali play well with iems, and does it work well as a preamp?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I just cannot go back to Mimby as it sounds dull, veiled and uninvolving, compared to aune T1 DAC.
> 
> I am trying various tube combinations, this one sounds gorgeous:


When I decided to add aune T1 DAC to Vali 2 instead of Mimby, I bought two Siemens EC8010 triodes which I found for a rather reasonable price ($20 apiece, +$25 for the adapter to 6922). I anticipated using them in the aune, adding euphonic tubes to Vali 2. In Vali 2 on Mimby, they gave excellent resolution, soundstage and speed, but sounded a little dry and somewhat unpleasant. Once aune T1 arrived, I found that actually it works the best other way round: RCA grey glass, or CBS Hytron 5692, or another great tube in the aune, and the pair of EC8010 in Vali 2, giving the best of EC8010 character, and adding musicality from the tube in the DAC. The combination is indeed awesome to my ears, I cannot stop listening to this combination.


----------



## TK16 (Aug 21, 2019)

Anyone hear ever heard the Fivre ECC82 Italian tubes? Just scored 5 tubes for $9.99. Bit more than I wanted to pay but worth the premium.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Five-tubes-12AU7-ECC82-/233318952420


----------



## Wes S

TK16 said:


> Anyone hear ever heard the Fivre ECC82 Italian tubes? Just scored 5 tubes for $9.99. Bit more than I wanted to pay but worth the premium.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Five-tubes-12AU7-ECC82-/233318952420


Can't wait to hear your thoughts on those!


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Anyone hear ever heard the Fivre ECC82 Italian tubes? Just scored 5 tubes for $9.99. Bit more than I wanted to pay but worth the premium.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Five-tubes-12AU7-ECC82-/233318952420



With that Italian blood, if they sound anything like a Ferrari they'll be awesome.  

Sorry to be of no help as usual, but I've never heard any Fivre tubes of any type.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Wes S said:


> Hey ya'll!  I am thinking about adding a Vali 2, to my work rig, which consist of a Mimby and Jotunheim.  I plan to use the Vali 2 with my iems, and as a preamp for my Jotunheim.  My question is does the Vali play well with iems, and does it work well as a preamp?


*Re: Vali 2*. I'd never give up my little toaster. One quirk was the unnerving pop when the relay clicks on. I've learned NOT to have them on my head when this happens (ouch). @Currawong thought the Vali as a preamp was... meh (_now this is a 3 year old review, so I'd cut the reviewer some slack... and I'd listen to the *entire episode* to put his comments in context_).


----------



## Wes S

ScubaMan2017 said:


> *Re: Vali 2*. I'd never give up my little toaster. One quirk was the unnerving pop when the relay clicks on. I've learned NOT to have them on my head when this happens (ouch). @Currawong thought the Vali as a preamp was... meh (_now this is a 3 year old review, so I'd cut the reviewer some slack... and I'd listen to the *entire episode* to put his comments in context_).


I have watched the review, several times.  I think I have way different taste than Currawong, so not to concerned.  He is a good reviewer, and knows his stuff.


----------



## TK16

A warning about this seller. Tube is very noisy due to Gm readings of 510-1,500. Stay away.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/273951625864


----------



## Wes S

TK16 said:


> A warning about this seller. Tube is very noisy due to Gm readings of 510-1,500. Stay away.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/273951625864


New avatar for TK!  Looks like you are really liking that Holland ECC82 foil getter.


----------



## TK16 (Aug 23, 2019)

Wes S said:


> New avatar for TK!  Looks like you are really liking that Holland ECC82 foil getter.


Returning that POS tube, but I still need another tube for a 2nd pair.
Was going to bid on a quad from that seller, glad I didn`t.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Returning that POS tube, but I still need another tube for a 2nd pair.
> Was going to bid on a quad from that seller, glad I didn`t.



You should probably just start buying all your tubes from me.  I don't have any of what you're looking for now, and it's unlikely I'll have anything you want in the future, but that's just a minor technicality and likely irrelevant.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> You should probably just start buying all your tubes from me.  I don't have any of what you're looking for now, and it's unlikely I'll have anything you want in the future, but that's just a minor technicality and likely irrelevant.


Kinda wish I was not TK, I'd buy tubes from him then if I was not him. Kind of pointless buying from myself, shipping it back to myself.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Kinda wish I was not TK, I'd buy tubes from him then if I was not him. Kind of pointless buying from myself, shipping it back to myself.



You could always offer yourself free shipping.  Problem solved.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> You could always offer yourself free shipping.  Problem solved.


That's a great idea thanks, was going to charge myself exuberant amount of money for shipping at least 4x the purchase price of the tubes.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> That's a great idea thanks, was going to charge myself exuberant amount of money for shipping at least 4x the purchase price of the tubes.



But you'd give PayPal more that way too. I'd demand a money order from yourself, but only one issued by the Post Office to reduce the risk of fraud.


----------



## Currawong

ScubaMan2017 said:


> *Re: Vali 2*. I'd never give up my little toaster. One quirk was the unnerving pop when the relay clicks on. I've learned NOT to have them on my head when this happens (ouch). @Currawong thought the Vali as a preamp was... meh (_now this is a 3 year old review, so I'd cut the reviewer some slack... and I'd listen to the *entire episode* to put his comments in context_).



It was a bit of a blunt comment, that's for sure. It was because I'd always been using quite decent pre-amps for my active speakers at the time -- usually $1k+ balanced headphone amps that doubled as pre-amps. The difference between those and the Vali 2 was striking.


----------



## Paladin79

I am in the process of testing a large group of 6dj8's I just received. Some Siemens, some Amperex, some US made...as long as I keep the tubes in a large box I have no trouble finding them again but if they are loose, they seem to disappear. Go figure.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am in the process of testing a large group of 6dj8's I just received. Some Siemens, some Amperex, some US made...as long as I keep the tubes in a large box I have no trouble finding them again but if they are loose, they seem to disappear. Go figure.



Rather expensive cat toys.    These are my cat's favorites:





We'll probably find 100 of them under furniture the next time we move.

Have you tried those 6CA7's in the SLA?  I'm _not_ a fan of EH branded tubes in general, but those have a particular synergy in the Super Amp for whatever reason.  The EH KT-88's give more slam and drive down low, but the 6CA7's are more resolving and harmonic-rich in the mids.  Not a bad tube at all for the money in that particular application.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 24, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Rather expensive cat toys.    These are my cat's favorites:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I traded out the EH 6CA7's with the KT-90's you sent me but to be honest I did not dislike their sound.

Maybe they need to burn in longer but I am not a huge fan of 6dj8's in the Vali 2, I tried over a dozen this morn plus some 6922's  friends lent me and they all sound a bit harsh compared to 6sn7's and equivalents I like. I like. Some are ok but not something I want to keep in the amp.

Right now I really prefer listening to a CBS/Hytron 5692 better than most any other tube of that type I own.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I traded out the EH 6CA7's with the KT-90's you sent me but to be honest I did not dislike their sound.
> 
> Maybe they need to burn in longer but I am not a huge fan of 6dj8's in the Vali 2, I tried over a dozen this morn plus some 6922's friends lent me and they all sound a bit harsh compared to 6sn7's I like. Some are ok but not something I want to keep in the amp.



I want to give the KT-90's a good listen in the Super Amp...which I'll do as soon as I get the caps swapped out. Prefer to see 200 ma's or less of bias current and with the KT-90's it's up around 230 right now. Hoping the new caps will help with that.

I haven't even had a chance to plug in my newly arrived Vali 2 yet. Maybe I should do that now instead of adding additional worthless blabber here.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> You should probably just start buying all your tubes from me.  I don't have any of what you're looking for now, and it's unlikely I'll have anything you want in the future, but that's just a minor technicality and likely irrelevant.


I will.

Do you have these GE tubes ? Thanks.


----------



## bcowen (Aug 24, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Right now I really prefer listening to a CBS/Hytron 5692 better than most any other tube of that type I own.



I have a good stash of those. Pretty sure I have the right adapter, but I'll have to double check. I'm going to start with that German made RCA (Siemens) and give the Vali some break-in time with it first, but then I'll swap in the 5692 and hopefully have to retrieve my socks from the other side of the room.


----------



## Paladin79

I haven't even had a chance to plug in my newly arrived Vali 2 yet. Maybe I should do that now instead of adding additional worthless blabber here.  [/QUOTE]

I am building more socket extenders for the inside of the pvc for the 6sn7 equivalent shoot out, I am having to move from bench to bench to see is missing now.


attmci said:


> I will.
> 
> Do you have these GE tubes ? Thanks.



If those were really built by GE I should have used one in my @bcowen tube challenge. They probably sound great!


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> I will.
> 
> Do you have these GE tubes ? Thanks.



LOL!  Those are RCA's. Don't have any RCA-made ones. All the 5692's I have are CBS/Hytrons. Not sure how they compare, as I don't think I've ever had any RCA 5692's.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Those are RCA's. Don't have any RCA-made ones. All the 5692's I have are CBS/Hytrons. Not sure how they compare, as I don't think I've ever had any RCA 5692's.



Those are GEs 5692s  rebranded  as CBS-Hytrons. 

Seriously, the CBS-Hytrons 5814s are good tubes.


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> I traded out the EH 6CA7's with the KT-90's you sent me but to be honest I did not dislike their sound.
> 
> Maybe they need to burn in longer but I am not a huge fan of 6dj8's in the Vali 2, I tried over a dozen this morn plus some 6922's  friends lent me and they all sound a bit harsh compared to 6sn7's and equivalents I like. I like. Some are ok but not something I want to keep in the amp.
> 
> Right now I really prefer listening to a CBS/Hytron 5692 better than most any other tube of that type I own.


What years are the 6DJ8`s? If they are mid 60`s to 70`s they will sound not as good as the 50`s versions.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 24, 2019)

I have some of the 60's and 70's for sure as well as some 50's versions that sound a bit better. I only had about three hours to listen then I moved on to other things.


Three of the tubes I will be sealing up for Schiit. A Tung Sol mouse ears, CBS/Hytron 5692, and a Melz 1578 with newly soldered pins. Giving them some final testing before they go into PVC.

Other tubes are a Sylvania Bad Boy, 1954 Ribbed plate Foton, Ken-Rad black glass VT-231, RCA grey glass 6sn7GT, and a Sylvania 7n7 tall body Frankie (I am replacing one I sent Bill)  I am considering booting the Frankie for a black glass National Union. I also have a nice Westinghouse, Raytheon, and Hitachi but I doubt those will be used.

The Melz 1578 is really about the easiest tube to pick out in the batch I have here, I know several of you have heard them.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Those are GEs 5692s  rebranded  as CBS-Hytrons.



Yup. And the earth is actually flat, the moon landing was done on a Hollywood set, and Stalin, Hussein, and Amin were all nice guys.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have some of the 60's and 70's for sure as well as some 50's versions that sound a bit better. I only had about three hours to listen then I moved on to other things.
> 
> Three of the tubes I will be sealing up for Schiit. A Tung Sol mouse ears, CBS/Hytron 5692, and a Melz 1578 with newly soldered pins. Giving them some final testing before they go into PVC.
> 
> ...



Booting the Frankie? BOOTING THE FRANKIE?  I'm telling Mom.


----------



## bcowen

I got off my butt and hooked up the b-stock Vali 2. Even with all of 10 minutes warmup, an MP3 through a 20 year old Zune and the baby Senn travel 'phones, what a schiitin' delight!  I could easily listen to it all day and be happy. It's earned a trial spot in the main HP rig now.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Booting the Frankie? BOOTING THE FRANKIE?  I'm telling Mom.


Other than you, Ripper, and maybe five other people on this planet. Does anyone else know what a Frankie is lol  If someone actually likes it, will you come in and take the time to explain it to some of the folks hearing it?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> I have a good stash of those. Pretty sure I have the right adapter, but I'll have to double check. I'm going to start with that German made RCA (Siemens) and give the Vali some break-in time with it first, but then I'll swap in the 5692 and hopefully have to retrieve my socks from the other side of the room.


Looking forward to your impressions. Do not forget to try twin 7A4 in your new Vali 2!


----------



## attmci (Aug 24, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Other than you, Ripper, and maybe five other people on this planet. Does anyone else know what a Frankie is lol  If someone actually likes it, will you come in and take the time to explain it to some of the folks hearing it?


I knew Bill because of the name.

I trust him and believed it sounds as good as a metal base 6sn7a.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> I knew Bill because of the name.
> 
> I trust him and believed it sounds as good as a metal base 6sn7a.



I own several and they do sound good and anyone at Schiit will probably know them as well as they might know a Foton or a Melz perhaps. It is also a pretty reasonably priced alternative considering the sound it produces.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> I own several and they do sound good and anyone at Schiit will probably know them as well as they might know a Foton or a Melz perhaps. It is also a pretty reasonably priced alternative considering the sound it produces.


I believed. LOL. But I found the 6SN7W(A) still sounds better.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 24, 2019)

attmci said:


> I believed. LOL. But I found the 6SN7W(A) still sounds better.



Which brand?  Sylvania?


----------



## bcowen (Aug 24, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Other than you, Ripper, and maybe five other people on this planet. Does anyone else know what a Frankie is lol  If someone actually likes it, will you come in and take the time to explain it to some of the folks hearing it?



Wrong, Tom.  There's six other people.  

I have no problem explaining it.  Or just send them the link where it all started.  But what happens if the granny panty IEC's end up sounding better?  That would be perplexing.  

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-3-tube-rolling-thread.876016/page-84#post-14447101

Edit: I wonder how many people listen to a tall body 7N7 thinking it's a Frankie when it's really not?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Looking forward to your impressions. Do not forget to try twin 7A4 in your new Vali 2!



Hmmm....that would require double-adapting as I don't have a 6922 -> dual 7A4 adapter. I'd have to use a 6922 -> 6SN7 adapter and then the 6SN7 -> 7A4 adapter on top of that. I guess I can get away with it if nobody is looking.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Which brand?  Sylvania?


Yes, like this one

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-J...852781?hash=item5b5c32bc2d:g:UgoAAOSw3QldXFVr


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hmmm....that would require double-adapting as I don't have a 6922 -> dual 7A4 adapter. I'd have to use a 6922 -> 6SN7 adapter and then the 6SN7 -> 7A4 adapter on top of that. I guess I can get away with it if nobody is looking.


You can absolutely get away with it, it is a road well traveled and you should have enough tube books at your disposal to tell you it is feasible.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Wrong, Tom.  There's six other people.
> 
> I have no problem explaining it.  Or just send them the link where it all started.  But what happens if the granny panty IEC's end up sounding better?  That would be perplexing.
> 
> ...



Wow this is like the one year anniversary of that post, I hope you have a decent bottle of wine with which to celebrate!


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 24, 2019)

attmci said:


> Yes, like this one
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-J...852781?hash=item5b5c32bc2d:g:UgoAAOSw3QldXFVr



Oh ok, I have some of those somewhere. I already put two Sylvania's in my group of eight, that is why I was considering bumping the Frankie lol.  It would upset Bill so I may have to reconsider, he has done me some favors and all and such a gesture might bring some joy to his life.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Wrong, Tom.  There's six other people.
> 
> I have no problem explaining it.  Or just send them the link where it all started.  But what happens if the granny panty IEC's end up sounding better?  That would be perplexing.
> 
> ...


Not me. I found a couple. Thank you for the pictures.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Yes, like this one
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-J...852781?hash=item5b5c32bc2d:g:UgoAAOSw3QldXFVr



Interesting that the internal construction looks nearly identical to a Frankie.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Interesting that the internal construction looks nearly identical to a Frankie.



Why it is identical, except for the differences.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh ok, I have some of those somewhere. I already put two Sylvania's in my group of eight, that is why I was considering bumping the Frankie lol.  It would upset Bill so I may have to reconsider, he has done me some favors and all and such a gesture might bring some joy to his life.



I think it would be funnier to put a Philips ECG in the lot.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Why it is identical, except for the differences.



So what I hear you saying is the only differences are things that are not alike?  I can live with that.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 24, 2019)

bcowen said:


> So what I hear you saying is the only differences are things that are not alike?  I can live with that.



Absolutely, it is like you and Ripper, six of one, a half dozen of the other. I can barely tell you apart except for I think he knows about tequila or some such. He is probably on a bar stool somewhere right now looking for his lost shaker of salt,  and you could be next to him.

There are supposed to be six degrees of separation but that number is probably high for some folks.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 24, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I think it would be funnier to put a Philips ECG in the lot.



Why do you think I am changing out tubes, there were four in your lot of eight!  These tubes are going to some serious audio people, I need to be on my best behavior this time.


My method of choosing tubes is highly scientific, if Morgan wags her tail, it means she likes the tube. If she turns at me with a look of What is that? I put it in the box with the GE tubes I will be sending your way when you least expect it.

I swear the next song that came up randomly was The Year of the Cat, Al Stewart. Alan Parsons was the engineer, Abbey Road studios. 

Check out the song Gold in a Brass Age by David Gray if you get a chance. I had just swapped tubes and I really thought I had the CBS/Hytron it sounded so good, but it was the Melz 1578. Maybe the key is exposing them to more heat inside pvc or maybe the plastic has a damping effect. The bass is really kicking in.


----------



## TK16

Had to send 2 messages to that seller that sold me that worn out ECC82. He claimed he was out of town and take care of it Monday. Don't know why he could not accept my return today. I got his message well before the post office closed. Lobbying for the death penalty for sellers of ECC82 with one or more triode at 500 Gm. 1 call and a drone hits the target, provided it does not get shot down in the Middle East.


----------



## barbz127

Is there an agreed upon "preffered" single tube for the Vali 2?


----------



## Paladin79

I cannot imagine people agreeing on a preferred type of tube. Every one has different tastes.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 24, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Other than you, Ripper, and maybe five other people on this planet. Does anyone else know what a Frankie is lol  If someone actually likes it, will you come in and take the time to explain it to some of the folks hearing it?



No point taunting them with the awesome goodness that is the Frankie.  That would just be a cruel and Schitty thing to do, given it is virtually impossible to find them.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Absolutely, it is like you and Ripper....I can barely tell you apart....



Man, that's beyond harsh.  I'm the tall, handsome one that would have been a movie star if I'd grown up in southern California.  He's the short, Danny DeVito-like middle aged goofy-looking one.  You gotta get yourself to the eye doctor, Tom.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Wow this is like the one year anniversary of that post, I hope you have a decent bottle of wine with which to celebrate!



Think I'll do that tonight. Some really nice guy sent me a bottle that's supposed to be really good.  Perhaps I'll break it in with the Vali's trial run in the main rig.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My method of choosing tubes is highly scientific, if Morgan wags her tail, it means she likes the tube. If she turns at me with a look of What is that? I put it in the box with the GE tubes I will be sending your way when you least expect it.



You mean Morgan has her own headphones?  That's a bit extreme Tom, but whatever.    I just spent $60 on a new scratching post for Cookie. She was down to bare wood on the old one. But at least she uses it religiously instead of the furniture. 



Paladin79 said:


> I swear the next song that came up randomly was The Year of the Cat, Al Stewart.


Love that song!



Paladin79 said:


> Maybe the key is exposing them to more heat inside pvc or maybe the plastic has a damping effect. The bass is really kicking in.



Or maybe it's just breaking in.  LOL!!!


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Had to send 2 messages to that seller that sold me that worn out ECC82. He claimed he was out of town and take care of it Monday. Don't know why he could not accept my return today. I got his message well before the post office closed. Lobbying for the death penalty for sellers of ECC82 with one or more triode at 500 Gm. 1 call and a drone hits the target, provided it does not get shot down in the Middle East.



I know some guys that can help out in situations like that.  Not cheap, but they _are_ effective.


----------



## bcowen

barbz127 said:


> Is there an agreed upon "preffered" single tube for the Vali 2?



Nope.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Man, that's beyond harsh.  I'm the tall, handsome one that would have been a movie star if I'd grown up in southern California.  He's the short, Danny DeVito-like middle aged goofy-looking one.  You gotta get yourself to the eye doctor, Tom.



In the HF reunion pics, he's the one grabbing my arse while I'm punching him in the family jewels.


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> In the HF reunion pics, he's the one grabbing my arse while I'm punching him in the family jewels.


I thought you were the 1 getting the reach around? Not that there anything wrong with those types of shenanigans. I don't judge.


----------



## Ripper2860

EZ mistake to make.  After-all, I do look like John Travolta.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> EZ mistake to make.  After-all, I do look like John Travolta.



I must admit there *is* some resemblance there.


----------



## Ripper2860

I never said I aged gracefully...


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Hmmm....that would require double-adapting as I don't have a 6922 -> dual 7A4 adapter. I'd have to use a 6922 -> 6SN7 adapter and then the 6SN7 -> 7A4 adapter on top of that. I guess I can get away with it if nobody is looking.


I am doing it. It works wonders.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Aug 25, 2019)

barbz127 said:


> Is there an agreed upon "preffered" single tube for the Vali 2?


Even if there were, in my humble experience, it depends not just on one's hearing and preferences, but before that on the other components in the system: the DAC and the headphones...

EDIT: To me, it has been very helpful to follow the discussions and try the things out for myself. Several people in this thread seem to prefer 6SN7 tubes in Vali 2 through an adapter, and splitting into twin single triodes through an adapter (6J5 or 7A4 tubes) has a couple of followers, myself included. Yet others like the novals, too: 6DJ8 Telefunken of 1950ties have their fans, as well as 12A*7 variants, especially Brimar and Mullard-made.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 25, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Even if there were, in my humble experience, it depends not just on one's hearing and preferences, but before that on the other components in the system: the DAC and the headphones...
> 
> EDIT: To me, it has been very helpful to follow the discussions and try the things out for myself. Several people in this thread seem to prefer 6SN7 tubes in Vali 2 through an adapter, and splitting into twin single triodes through an adapter (6J5 or 7A4 tubes) has a couple of followers, myself included. Yet others like the novals, too: 6DJ8 Telefunken of 1950ties have their fans, as well as 12A*7 variants, especially Brimar and Mullard-made.



Luckily we can ask Jason, and the Vali 2 will support 6sn7's;  they and some variants are certainly my favorites. 6J5's and 7A4's in pairs are single triode versions of the same tubes. You end up using the same filament current with them that you would with a 6sn7 except the triodes are separated, in a 6sn7 (dual triode) you need shielding to accomplish this.

I will most likely try more 6dj8's and similar tubes this morning but so far they are not my preference but each to his or her own.

There are plenty of folks who can answer with their favorite 6dj8 or 6922.

In 6sn7 equivalents I prefer the Melz 1578, CBS/Hytron 5692, and Ken-Rad black glass VT-231.

In 7A4 pairs I prefer the VT-192  Sylvania pairs. In 6J5's I like some Sylvanias that have a three hole black plate similar to Bad Boys, I named them Naughty Girls. 

I tried one of these 6922's yesterday that a friend lent me and it was my favorite in that group. It started giving me a bit more airiness and warmth compared to others I tried.  There are plenty of tubes I like better that would cost a lot less but that is just me.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

barbz127 said:


> Is there an agreed upon "preffered" single tube for the Vali 2?


Oy. 
_*Welcome to the thread*_, @barbz127 .


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> Nope.


It's one of the reasons I enjoy my little toaster. It's an amazingly flexible hybrid amplifier.


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> Luckily we can ask Jason, and the Vali 2 will support 6sn7's;  they and some variants are certainly my favorites. 6J5's and 7A4's in pairs are single triode versions of the same tubes. You end up using the same filament current with them that you would with a 6sn7 except the triodes are separated, in a 6sn7 (dual triode) you need shielding to accomplish this.
> 
> I will most likely try more 6dj8's and similar tubes this morning but so far they are not my preference but each to his or her own.
> 
> ...


I`d make sure that tube never makes it back, that is an ultra rare Heerlen Holland Pinched Waist tube bro. Got a pair of the 56 CCa Heerlen PW and they are glorious sounding.


----------



## bcowen (Aug 25, 2019)

I'm either going to have to quit buying Schiit or buy a bigger table.
Vali 2 on top acquitting itself quite nicely. Its bigger brother on the bottom totally torqued off that its plug got pulled to give the outlet to Junior.


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> I`d make sure that tube never makes it back, that is an ultra rare Heerlen Holland Pinched Waist tube bro. Got a pair of the 56 CCa Heerlen PW and they are glorious sounding.



I may have to see if I can talk my friend out of it, I have done some work on a few of his amps so he does owe me.

I just wished I had a proper adapter to try it in my BH Crack, I gave up on 12AU7's some time ago and strictly run 6sn7's now.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> I must admit there *is* some resemblance there.


That guy is a hottie!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'm either going to have to quit buying Schiit or buy a bigger table.
> Vali 2 on top acquitting itself quite nicely. Its bigger brother on the bottom totally torqued off that its plug got pulled to give the outlet to Junior.
> 
> 
> ...



How are you liking the sound of the CBS/Hytron 5692 in that setup? (I assume that is what you have there.)


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> No point taunting them with the awesome goodness that is the Frankie.  That would just be a cruel and Schitty thing to do, given it is virtually impossible to find them.



There's still plenty of Frankies popping up out there.  I blame you for causing the price to increase by 10x from a year ago though.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NOS-Tung...549638?hash=item4204557006:g:nG8AAOSwmvBdIg42


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> How are you liking the sound of the CBS/Hytron 5692 in that setup? (I assume that is what you have there.)



Yup, that's a CBS/Hytron.  The Vali 2 sounds friggin' awesome, but honestly the 5692 is only the 2nd tube I've tried so far. Sounds better than the RCA labeled Siemens 6DJ8 I had in there to start. IIRC, the CBS 5692 was one of my preferred tubes when I had my previous Vali 2, but it's been a long time since I last had it.  Regardless, the Vali 2 with that tube in it punches WAY above its weight.  Hard to imagine any better deal in the HP amp world out there.


----------



## bcowen

barbz127 said:


> Is there an agreed upon "preffered" single tube for the Vali 2?



Here's the problem: the tubes that *I* like best are *the* best ones in the Vali. But many would disagree with me, and I'm too nice a guy to intentionally start a flame war.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yup, that's a CBS/Hytron.  The Vali 2 sounds friggin' awesome, but honestly the 5692 is only the 2nd tube I've tried so far. Sounds better than the RCA labeled Siemens 6DJ8 I had in there to start. IIRC, the CBS 5692 was one of my preferred tubes when I had my previous Vali 2, but it's been a long time since I last had it.  Regardless, the Vali 2 with that tube in it punches WAY above its weight.  Hard to imagine any better deal in the HP amp world out there.



Now if you would just listen to Old Deaf Donkey and myself and get you an Aune tube DAC to drive that with you might be even more impressed lol. Later you can work your way up to a quad of 7A4's but baby steps first.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Here's the problem: the tubes that *I* like best are *the* best ones in the Vali. But many would disagree with me, and I'm too nice a guy to intentionally start a flame war.



Well the 5692 is an awfully good tube to use in the Vali 2.

By the way in the last ten seconds I decided to perhaps send you a set of the same interconnects I am going to send Jason for his 6sn7 equivalent challenge. It is easier than trying to describe them.

I just need to know the length cables you would prefer.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well the 5692 is an awfully good tube to use in the Vali 2.
> 
> By the way in the last ten seconds I decided to perhaps send you a set of the same interconnects I am going to send Jason for his 6sn7 equivalent challenge. It is easier than trying to describe them.
> 
> I just need to know the length cables you would prefer.



Well, that's beyond gracious of you!  Length depends on where you think they would have the most effect sonically: between the DAC and Loki, or between the Loki and Lyr 3 (or Vali 2)?  If the former, I need about 9" between the tips of the center pins, and if the latter, 18".  I hate cable clutter, so have always made my own to get the minimum length required for the application.  But then if I get an Aune, everything changes. Let's just go with 18" which should be suitable in any case.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Now if you would just listen to Old Deaf Donkey and myself and get you an Aune tube DAC to drive that with you might be even more impressed lol. Later you can work your way up to a quad of 7A4's but baby steps first.



I feel my wallet getting thinner.  Fortunately I just made some nice money on a bunch of old capacitors. LOL!

You're gonna have to do some 'splainin' on the quad of 7A4's though. I only have two channels and two ears, and while I'll freely admit I suck at math that part just isn't computing.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, that's beyond gracious of you!  Length depends on where you think they would have the most effect sonically: between the DAC and Loki, or between the Loki and Lyr 3 (or Vali 2)?  If the former, I need about 9" between the tips of the center pins, and if the latter, 18".  I hate cable clutter, so have always made my own to get the minimum length required for the application.  But then if I get an Aune, everything changes. Let's just go with 18" which should be suitable in any case.



Ok I will see what I can do. Favorite color?

By the way I conducted some rather extensive listening tests on different wire as well as DAC's. Somewhere I should have sets of wires made as close to identical as I could get them, same number of twists per pair and all sealed in metal mesh.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I feel my wallet getting thinner.  Fortunately I just made some nice money on a bunch of old capacitors. LOL!
> 
> You're gonna have to do some 'splainin' on the quad of 7A4's though. I only have two channels and two ears, and while I'll freely admit I suck at math that part just isn't computing.



Sorry I should have said two sets of 7A4's, they need not be a matched quad. I only used quad as a quick way of saying four tubes. Two in the DAC two in the Vali 2. ODD and I may be the only ones who have tried such things to date, 6J5's can be subbed for 7A4's.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Now if you would just listen to Old Deaf Donkey and myself and get you an Aune tube DAC to drive that with you might be even more impressed lol. Later you can work your way up to a quad of 7A4's but baby steps first.



For you or @Old Deaf Donkey , on the Aune, what's the difference between the T1, the T1SE, and the T1 Mk2?  Or more simply, which one are you guys using?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I will see what I can do. Favorite color?
> 
> By the way I conducted some rather extensive listening tests on different wire as well as DAC's. Somewhere I should have sets of wires made as close to identical as I could get them, same number of twists per pair and all sealed in metal mesh.



Silver, if you have it. Not my favorite color per se, but blends with the chassis' to be more invisible.  If no silver available, then dark blue. But NOT Duke Blue. If you only have Duke Blue, then make it black.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> For you or @Old Deaf Donkey , on the Aune, what's the difference between the T1, the T1SE, and the T1 Mk2?  Or more simply, which one are you guys using?



I own several models but T1SE is fine, I would just search around for a used one on EBAY. I have grabbed some for $75 or less, new they can be $240 or some such.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry I should have said two sets of 7A4's, they need not be a matched quad. I only used quad as a quick way of saying four tubes. Two in the DAC two in the Vali 2. ODD and I may be the only ones who have tried such things to date, 6J5's can be subbed for 7A4's.



Ahhh.  Now I get it.  Light bulb just clicked on.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Silver, if you have it. Not my favorite color per se, but blends with the chassis' to be more invisible.  If no silver available, then dark blue. But NOT Duke Blue. If you only have Duke Blue, then make it black.



Duke blue it is. But seriously, I do have this....


 The mesh on the right is grey or silver and black and I can use it, mind you it has not been stretched over cable yet. To the left are cables I built with metal mesh to test various wires.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I own several models but T1SE is fine, I would just search around for a used one on EBAY. I have grabbed some for $75 or less, new they can be $240 or some such.



Well dogschiit.  The Aune T1 (any version) has only a USB input, and the EITR has only an S/PDIF output.  Hate to ditch the EITR -- I have 2, one in the big rig and one in the HP rig, and they both make a noticeable improvement.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Ahhh.  Now I get it.  Light bulb just clicked on.



 This kind of setup, in this case I am using 6J5's I like.  By shopping around, this setup can be less than $300. It causes standard recordings to sound more like binaural because of the separation you achieve.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 25, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Well dogschiit.  The Aune T1 (any version) has only a USB input, and the EITR has only an S/PDIF output.  Hate to ditch the EITR -- I have 2, one in the big rig and one in the HP rig, and they both make a noticeable improvement.



Ok I will send you a USB cable as well, the type I build and use.  Be flexible, you may or may not like this sound but it does give you some options. There is a pretty big sonic difference but I cannot say if you will love it.

I just popped the Ken-Rad VT 231 into the Vali, live version of Black Books by Nils Lofgren....so nice, sigh.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I will send you a USB cable as well, the type I build and use.  Be flexible, you may or may not like this sound but it does give you some options. There is a pretty big sonic difference but I cannot say if you will love it.



I have plenty of USB cables.  What I'd need is a cable that's S/PDIF on one end and USB on the other to get the output of the EITR into the Aune.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Duke blue it is. But seriously, I do have this....
> 
> The mesh on the right is grey or silver and black and I can use it, mind you it has not been stretched over cable yet. To the left are cables I built with metal mesh to test various wires.



I like the sleeve on the right.  Pretty sexy looking!


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 25, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I have plenty of USB cables.  What I'd need is a cable that's S/PDIF on one end and USB on the other to get the output of the EITR into the Aune.



Good luck with that. A better photo of that type of mesh, sorry about the size.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Good luck with that. A better photo of that type of mesh, sorry about the size.



Cool!  I like it.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Cool!  I like it.


It shall be done.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AUNE-T1-He...982159?hash=item2cf2f9400f:g:eb8AAOSw-8BdWW-l

Not a lot of great choices on Aune on ebay but unless you absolutely have to have DSD, this would work for what we are doing.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It shall be done.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/AUNE-T1-He...982159?hash=item2cf2f9400f:g:eb8AAOSw-8BdWW-l
> 
> Not a lot of great choices on Aune on ebay but unless you absolutely have to have DSD, this would work for what we are doing.



Yeah, was looking at that. The plain T1 is 24/96 versus 24/192 for the SE version. Not sure if that makes any difference when all is said and done.


----------



## bcowen

Amazon has the SE for $165...going that way I could always return it if doesn't float my boat (considering the loss of using the EITR in the process).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Amazon has the SE for $165...going that way I could always return it if doesn't float my boat (considering the loss of using the EITR in the process).


Sounds good.

I use one at work for a powered speaker system in my office.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> For you or @Old Deaf Donkey , on the Aune, what's the difference between the T1, the T1SE, and the T1 Mk2?  Or more simply, which one are you guys using?


I bought mine from Drop.com for $140 as aune T1 SE Mk3. On the box, it indicates aune T1 SE only.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Well dogschiit.  The Aune T1 (any version) has only a USB input, and the EITR has only an S/PDIF output.  Hate to ditch the EITR -- I have 2, one in the big rig and one in the HP rig, and they both make a noticeable improvement.


I use iFi Audio iPurifier3 USB-B. Works fine. $149 only


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry I should have said two sets of 7A4's, they need not be a matched quad. I only used quad as a quick way of saying four tubes. Two in the DAC two in the Vali 2. ODD and I may be the only ones who have tried such things to date, 6J5's can be subbed for 7A4's.


My endgame is two Sylvania 7A4 (@bcowen, you have exactly the same, military version from 1945) in the aune, and two Siemens EC8010 single triods in the Vali 2. 


 

But 2 + 2 7A4 work as well, and 2 7A4 + 2 6J5 Sylvanias.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> My endgame is two Sylvania 7A4 (@bcowen, you have exactly the same, military version from 1945) in the aune, and two Siemens EC8010 single triods in the Vali 2.
> 
> 
> 
> But 2 + 2 7A4 work as well, and 2 7A4 + 2 6J5 Sylvanias.



I may have to try the EC8010’s some time, they are less common I would think but certainly usable.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Oh ok, I have some of those somewhere. I already put two Sylvania's in my group of eight, that is why I was considering bumping the Frankie lol.  It would upset Bill so I may have to reconsider, he has done me some favors and all and such a gesture might bring some joy to his life.


You are rich. These pair tested not very good but.......

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Sylvania...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> You are rich. These pair tested not very good but.......
> 
> Interesting those must not come up for sale often.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> You are rich. These pair tested not very good but.......
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Sylvania-6SN7W-Tubes-USA-Metal-BASE-/283579869653?nma=true&si=xnIcuOrWnM0gI6Fvyoz5YNRs208%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557



I have a pair with the bakelite bases. Look to be pretty much identical internally. The metal base versions are certainly rare...wonder if there's any difference in the sound? IIRC, I paid $150 or so for the bakelite pair.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> I have a pair with the bakelite bases. Look to be pretty much identical internally. The metal base versions are certainly rare...wonder if there's any difference in the sound? IIRC, I paid $150 or so for the bakelite pair.


I have metal but not these. $150 a pair is a great deal.

Someone interested can give these a try:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Mint-Matched-110-Testing-Sylvania-6SN7W-Tall-Bottle-Audio-Tubes/401856722871?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=19d9738c8eab4c4481c98b0ad8efc51a&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&sd=401856722871&itm=401856722871&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2481888&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:da0ca346-c790-11e9-a58b-74dbd1802985|parentrq:cb21581216c0abe196844190ffeab02b|iid:1


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 25, 2019)

I have a couple of the bakelite tall bottle W and a quad of short bottle W.  From what I've read, there's no diff between the bakelite and metal base versions of Ws, although there is between tall and short bottle versions.

Now the 6SN7A is a metal base and uber expensive.

My advice -- As someone who owns Ws, get a Frankie.  You'd be hard pressed to tell the difference and they are typically much cheaper.


----------



## TK16

Here's a good price on a pair of 58 Heerlen E88CC D-getters, not great testing. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-Telefunken-E88CC-D-Getter-gepruft-mit-RoeTest-V8/193067173088
If the above is too costly possibly this better value.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NOS-NIB-...HED-WAIST-D-GETTER-TUBES-HOLLAND/383121222786


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> Here's a good price on a pair of 58 Heerlen E88CC D-getters, not great testing.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-Telefunken-E88CC-D-Getter-gepruft-mit-RoeTest-V8/193067173088
> If the above is too costly possibly this better value.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NOS-NIB-...HED-WAIST-D-GETTER-TUBES-HOLLAND/383121222786



They are ok but there are other tubes I would rather buy.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 25, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> I have a couple of the bakelite tall bottle W and a quad of short bottle W.  From what I've read, there's no diff between the bakelite and metal base versions of Ws, although there is between tall and short bottle versions.
> 
> Now the 6SN7A is a metal base and uber expensive.
> 
> My advice -- As someone who owns Ws, get a Frankie.  You'd be hard pressed to tell the difference and they are typically much cheaper.



I have multiple Frankie’s and they are a good buy but not toward the top of my favorite list.

One is going to Schiit in the 8 tubes I send out, we will see how it does.

I also have a group doing a blind test before they go to Jason so that could be telling as well.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Here's a good price on a pair of 58 Heerlen E88CC D-getters, not great testing.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-Telefunken-E88CC-D-Getter-gepruft-mit-RoeTest-V8/193067173088
> If the above is too costly possibly this better value.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NOS-NIB-...HED-WAIST-D-GETTER-TUBES-HOLLAND/383121222786



LOL!!!

Personally, I'd prefer this pair from BangyBang.  Free shipping seals the deal.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-GOLD-PIN...a=0&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


----------



## attmci

These are rare ones.

You need to dig out yours ASAP. One of the best US made 6SN7s.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> LOL!!!
> 
> Personally, I'd prefer this pair from BangyBang.  Free shipping seals the deal.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-GOLD-PIN-MATCHED-TUBES-PAIR-AMPEREX-6922-E88CC-ECC88-PQ-TEST-NEW-GRAY-PLATE/303257484296?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=1&asc=20131003132420&meid=7f91f41490aa40b2b801f186d4959cbb&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=12&sd=383121222786&itm=303257484296&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


Price like that from them, gotta be fakes, though has the elusive (c) for copyright that is rare for Amperex tubes. Sounds legit.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> These are rare ones.
> 
> You need to dig out yours ASAP. One of the best US made 6SN7s.



I am trying to exclude anything $200 up on those I send out to Schiit so I had not even got them out lately. Most of my work lately has been with other brands as well.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 25, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I have multiple Frankie’s and they are a good buy but not toward the top of my favorite list.
> 
> One is going to Schiit in the 8 tubes I send out, we will see how it does.
> 
> I also have a group doing a blind test before they go to Jason so that could be telling as well.



It will be interesting to see how both groups rank the mystery tubes.  

I'm not saying Frankie is the end-all/be-all -- just saying it is a nice tube and if one likes the sound profile of the Sylvie 6SN7W tall bottles, they can get very close and maybe even slightly better sound profile with the much cheaper and less rare Frankie.  At least in my opinion.  

Anyhow -- I'm smitten with the Brimar 6SN7GTs at the moment, so Frankie is currently a fond memory.  That romance could be rekindled whenever I roll it back in, though.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Price like that from them, gotta be fakes, though has the elusive (c) for copyright that is rare for Amperex tubes. Sounds legit.



BangyBang got close with those except for one fatal flaw.  There's always the Registered mark (R in a circle) underneath the PQ insignia on every PQ Amperex I've ever seen. Don't see it on those. The rest of the paint is fresh enough it's not like it rubbed off the same place on both tubes.

The PQ should look like this:


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> It will be interesting to see how both groups rank the mystery tubes.
> 
> I'm not saying Frankie is the end-all/be-all -- just saying it is a nice tube and if one likes the sound profile of the Sylvie 6SN7W tall bottles, they can get very close and maybe even slightly better sound profile with the much cheaper and less rare Frankie.  At least in my opinion.
> 
> Anyhow -- I'm smitten with the Brimar 6SN7GTs at the moment, so Frankie is currently a fond memory.  That romance could be rekindled whenever I roll it back in, though.



You know, there's one thing that in all my years playing with tubes that I've never seen discussed:  sample-to-sample variation. With the advances we've made and the techniques we've learned over the past 50+ years (Six sigma, materials science, testing tools and methods, automation, etc) the variation we have in manufactured products today is a fraction of what it was back when these tubes were made. It's entirely possible that two tubes made in the same factory on the same line by the same people in the same week could sound different due to the far less automated and far more variable processes and materials that existed then. Perhaps two visually identical Frankies (or any other tube for that matter) can have very different sounds.  Just food for thought, FWIW, YMMV, who cares, and all that....


----------



## Ripper2860

Great.  Something else to add to my audio nervosa.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Aug 26, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Anyhow -- I'm smitten with the Brimar 6SN7GTs at the moment, so Frankie is currently a fond memory.  That romance could be rekindled whenever I roll it back in, though.


The Brimar 6SN7 GT is the best sounding 6SN7 I have. Slightly better to my ears than CBS 5692 and RCA Grey Glass. But the prices...


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> It will be interesting to see how both groups rank the mystery tubes.
> 
> I'm not saying Frankie is the end-all/be-all -- just saying it is a nice tube and if one likes the sound profile of the Sylvie 6SN7W tall bottles, they can get very close and maybe even slightly better sound profile with the much cheaper and less rare Frankie.  At least in my opinion.
> 
> Anyhow -- I'm smitten with the Brimar 6SN7GTs at the moment, so Frankie is currently a fond memory.  That romance could be rekindled whenever I roll it back in, though.



I will have to get some of my other tubes out sometime but for right now, in the eight I have selected the Frankie would be in the lower half to my ears, ranking 6 or 7 in fact but then there are no weak tubes in this group. IMHO

Before the tubes are sent off to Schiit they will go through a group of at least fourteen people, the majority of whom are under fifty years old so they are less affected by presbyacusis.

That testing starts today.

I have a list of folks asking to hear the eight tubes after Schiit runs them on Sept. 12, and while i do not mind running a risk sending $400 tubes out there, or sealing them in pvc, I hesitate to do that with say $1,000 in tubes.


----------



## Wes S

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> The Brimar 6SN7 GT is the best sounding 6SN7 I have. Slightly better to my ears than CBS 5692 and RCA Grey Glass. But the prices...


That is my favorite 6SN7 too!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You know, there's one thing that in all my years playing with tubes that I've never seen discussed:  sample-to-sample variation. With the advances we've made and the techniques we've learned over the past 50+ years (Six sigma, materials science, testing tools and methods, automation, etc) the variation we have in manufactured products today is a fraction of what it was back when these tubes were made. It's entirely possible that two tubes made in the same factory on the same line by the same people in the same week could sound different due to the far less automated and far more variable processes and materials that existed then. Perhaps two visually identical Frankies (or any other tube for that matter) can have very different sounds.  Just food for thought, FWIW, YMMV, who cares, and all that....



As with any sampling, the higher the number chosen the better. 

There is also the wisdom of crowds that started with Francis Galton in 1907. Get a large enough group together, listen to their independent opinions and the answer can be astonishingly accurate.

Notice I said independent opinions. When you go by what someone else said, or believe because a specific tube must be wonderful because people are paying $250 each for them, it is a little tough to be totally objective. I like to eliminate all of that, and in the case of many of my test subjects, they would not know a Brimar from a cat's derriere but they know sound, and music, and are exposed to specific music set up to exhibit certain qualities of devices or equipment. At a later date i could certainly add a Brimar, a 6sn7W, black glass RCA, or a Mullard 6sn7gt to the mix and while I like working with the number eight, down the road I could easily do 12 tubes and add those to the mix. The only tricky part I would face is trying to go with other shaped 6sn7 equivalents lol, the ones I am using all fit within the PVC I am using.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> LOL!!!
> 
> Personally, I'd prefer this pair from BangyBang.  Free shipping seals the deal.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-GOLD-PIN-MATCHED-TUBES-PAIR-AMPEREX-6922-E88CC-ECC88-PQ-TEST-NEW-GRAY-PLATE/303257484296?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=1&asc=20131003132420&meid=7f91f41490aa40b2b801f186d4959cbb&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=12&sd=383121222786&itm=303257484296&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


That PQ definitely does not look right!


----------



## TK16

Wes S said:


> That PQ definitely does not look right!


Yeah @bcowen should stop linking bogus tubes, AFAIK he is the only one doing that. Don't want unsuspecting newbie tube members to accidentally buy them.


----------



## TK16

Here's a very reasonably priced pair of WE 396A's.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Western-Electric-396A-2C51-Audio-Vacuum-Tubes-Pair/132340743695
Perfect for new tube rollers without breaking the bank.


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> Here's a very reasonably priced pair of WE 396A's.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Western-Electric-396A-2C51-Audio-Vacuum-Tubes-Pair/132340743695
> Perfect for new tube rollers without breaking the bank.



I have other 2c51's but not those lol. I recall seeing a much better price on the WE, I will have to ask some of my contacts.


----------



## Robert Padgett (Aug 26, 2019)

TK16 said:


> Yeah @bcowen should stop linking bogus tubes, AFAIK he is the only one doing that. Don't want unsuspecting newbie tube members to accidentally buy them.



I can appreciate your opinions about "joking" about fake and bogus ptubes. I was initially upset when you recommended a very over-priced, probably fake version of a super rare tube.
If we have a reputation as being a funny guy, who makes posts about obvious junk...what about the newcomer who goes out and sends Bangy-Bang $500 for two $10 Chinese fakes with paint so fresh, it rubs off as soon as you touch it?  Not everybody is in on the joke.

I was such a newcomer, and in my case, it was a new production Telefunken from JJ for $48. I had read about Telefunken this and Telefunken that, so I plunked down my money, and then found a post that said the new products were not the same as the ones made in Germany and with a diamond in the bottom. At that time, I didn't even own a Vali 2 yet, so I replaced the stock tube-based solely upon others opinions. My lesson learned.

So, I love a good poke and the fun about tubes which are sold on eBay, but I am also concerned that a newbie might take this too seriously, buy overpriced tubes which sound like Tom Cats screeching in the alley, and then wonders why two well-respected sources would have recommended them.

I also was one who thought the Gospel according to Head-Fi was sacrosanct, and the wisdom of a person should be considered serious unless so obviously a joking reference that if you spend $500 on a pair of alleged "Holy Grail" you might not get what you paid for.

I still suggest newcomers listen to the stock tubes that came with their Vali 2 or Valhalla 2, and then buy good value tubes from:
Vivatubes.com, TubeDepot.com, Tubemonger.com, or UpscaleAudio.com.
https://www.etsy.com/shop/Lowtechelec  is also a reputable source for tested valves in the used market.
eBay is at best a crapshoot, and I will no longer buy tubes through those dealers, as I don't have the equipment to test tubes, and bad tubes can damage amplifiers.

Oh, BTW, the dealer on Etsy has a good selection of GE Tubes...


----------



## Wes S

TK16 said:


> Here's a very reasonably priced pair of WE 396A's.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Western-Electric-396A-2C51-Audio-Vacuum-Tubes-Pair/132340743695
> Perfect for new tube rollers without breaking the bank.


WOW!


----------



## Wes S (Aug 26, 2019)

Robert Padgett said:


> I can appreciate your opinions about "joking" about fake and bogus ptubes. I was initially upset when you recommended a very over-priced, probably fake version of a super rare tube.
> If we have a reputation as being a funny guy, who makes posts about obvious junk...what about the newcomer who goes out and sends Bangy-Bang $500 for two $10 Chinese fakes with paint so fresh, it rubs off as soon as you touch it?  Not everybody is in on the joke.
> 
> I was such a newcomer, and in my case, it was a new production Telefunken from JJ for $48. I had read about Telefunken this and Telefunken that, so I plunked down my money, and then found a post that said the new products were not the same as the ones made in Germany and with a diamond in the bottom. At that time, I didn't even own a Vali 2 yet, so I replaced the stock tube-based solely upon others opinions. My lesson learned.
> ...


There are plenty of good sellers on ebay, it just takes a little effort and research to find them, and I am sure a lot of them, have been mentioned in this thread.


----------



## TK16

Robert Padgett said:


> I can appreciate your opinions about "joking" about fake and bogus ptubes. I was initially upset when you recommended a very over-priced, probably fake version of a super rare tube.
> If we have a reputation as being a funny guy, who makes posts about obvious junk...what about the newcomer who goes out and sends Bangy-Bang $500 for two $10 Chinese fakes with paint so fresh, it rubs off as soon as you touch it?  Not everybody is in on the joke.
> 
> I was such a newcomer, and in my case, it was a new production Telefunken from JJ for $48. I had read about Telefunken this and Telefunken that, so I plunked down my money, and then found a post that said the new products were not the same as the ones made in Germany and with a diamond in the bottom. At that time, I didn't even own a Vali 2 yet, so I replaced the stock tube-based solely upon others opinions. My lesson learned.
> ...


I will take your post under advisement.


----------



## Robert Padgett

TK16 said:


> I will take your post under advisement.


and with all those emojis, a fair dosage of salt might be in order, lime optional.

I know it is no surprise that there are literally thousands of brain-dead zombies who spend money foolishly. I got a PM from a friend who said that when you pointed out a tube, it was most often a joke because if it were any good, you would have bought it. I said that sounded fair. I for one find the ridiculous prices on some eBay ads hilarious, and know the Spawn of P.T. Barnum's generation will blissfully spend money for what most of us have figured out is a nuanced difference between one tube to another, complete with our own hearing being different.

I am waiting for the next Holy Grail Bubble to float in.


----------



## TK16

Robert Padgett said:


> and with all those emojis, a fair dosage of salt might be in order, lime optional.
> 
> I know it is no surprise that there are literally thousands of brain-dead zombies who spend money foolishly. I got a PM from a friend who said that when you pointed out a tube, it was most often a joke because if it were any good, you would have bought it. I said that sounded fair. I for one find the ridiculous prices on some eBay ads hilarious, and know the Spawn of P.T. Barnum's generation will blissfully spend money for what most of us have figured out is a nuanced difference between one tube to another, complete with our own hearing being different.
> 
> I am waiting for the next Holy Grail Bubble to float in.


I often post deals and bargains too, I'll make sure I use the emojis on jokes. If that's acceptable to you, my lawyer will contact your lawyer with the details and we can hammer out a proper legal agreement.


----------



## Ripper2860

TK16 said:


> I'll make sure I use the emojis on jokes.



It's official.  *HELL HATH FROZEN OVER!!!*


----------



## TK16 (Aug 26, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> It's official.  *HELL HATH FROZEN OVER!!!*


Got off the phone with Uncle Donald and he just sanctioned you and imposed 100% tariffs on anything tube related just for the next 50 years.
My browser on my cheap tablet keeps crashing trying to use the emojis.


----------



## Wes S

TK16 said:


> Got off the phone with Uncle Donald and he just sanctioned you and imposed 100% tariffs on anything tube related just for the next 50 years.
> My browser on my cheap tablet keeps crashing trying to use the emojis.


In TK's defense, I can't use the emojis from my phone, or it freezes.


----------



## TK16

Wes S said:


> In TK's defense, I can't use the emojis from my phone, or it freezes.


The new tablet I got today does not crash on the . My cell fone freezes as well.


----------



## Ripper2860

Maybe some of that tube $$$ should go toward new phones.  

(Sent from my phone, btw).


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Great.  Something else to add to my audio nervosa.



Glad to help, as usual.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Yeah @bcowen should stop linking bogus tubes, AFAIK he is the only one doing that. Don't want unsuspecting newbie tube members to accidentally buy them.



Shame on me?


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Here's a very reasonably priced pair of WE 396A's.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Western-Electric-396A-2C51-Audio-Vacuum-Tubes-Pair/132340743695
> Perfect for new tube rollers without breaking the bank.



Gotta love that guy.  Everything he sells is untested, and always guaranteed to be working. Doesn't compute.


----------



## Ripper2860

Can't guarantee they won't suck, but he can guarantee that they're not DOA.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Gotta love that guy.  Everything he sells is untested, and always guaranteed to be working. Doesn't compute.


Take a look at those pins, no wonder they are only $499, straight pins would double the asking price. Mega expensive, not tested, bent pins BUT the free shipping is a big plus.


----------



## Ripper2860

Let me guess -- you're posting from your phone.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Can't guarantee they won't suck, but he can guarantee that they're not DOA.



But the more relevant point is that if they aren't tested, how does he know they're not dead?  Arrival status is irrelevant. 

Speaking of arrival though, the two International Servicemaster granny-panty 7N7's arrived today. One with grid leakage that's close to a short, the other with a megohm of grid leakage that's way more than I'd ever put in one of my amps. DOA?  Well, more like NUOA (Not Usable on Arrival).. Guess I'll never know if they're Frankie beaters.  Maybe the pair Tom got will fare better.  Advertised as "fully tested."  On what?  One of these?  LOL!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 26, 2019)

He's not saying they're not DOA -- he's guaranteeing them if they are.  There's only so much you can do with the 'Fester Tester' ...


----------



## Robert Padgett

TK16 said:


> I often post deals and bargains too, I'll make sure I use the emojis on jokes. If that's acceptable to you, my lawyer will contact your lawyer with the details and we can hammer out a proper legal agreement.



I hate to have to bring my legal team into what at best an unintentional error, and the opposing team was already 8 Runs ahead... Nothing needs my clearance, I turned down the whole "Chosen One" thing, an look who stole the idea from me...  Kind Sir, I meant no harm, expressed or implied, forthwith and here to fore... My Crack team of lawyers is almost disbarred addicts, but give me great advice, strangely for $5 every few minutes. At least I can afford the legal fees. If it pleases the Court, I can check in with Ripper, like a parole officer should I have another outburst.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> But the more relevant point is that if they aren't tested, how does he know they're not dead?  Arrival status is irrelevant.
> 
> Speaking of arrival though, the two International Servicemaster granny-panty 7N7's arrived today. One with grid leakage that's close to a short, the other with a megohm of grid leakage that's way more than I'd ever put in one of my amps. DOA?  Well, more like NUOA (Not Usable on Arrival).. Guess I'll never know if they're Frankie beaters.  Maybe the pair Tom got will fare better.  Advertised as "fully tested."  On what?  One of these?  LOL!


Still have not heard back from that seller who sold me that awful ECC82, was fully tested too and high balance testing numbers. Mind you that 1 triode tested 3x higher than the other. 510-1,500. The tube I got today was very close to NOS from a US seller. I think some shady sellers figure the vast majority of buyers do not have testers. I can name about the same number of good sellers vs bad ones. That is why I recommend everyone with a lot of tubes at least have a cheap emissions tester or better. To at least check for shorts and gas.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> He's not saying they're not DOA -- he's guaranteeing them if they are.  There's only so much you can do with the 'Fester Tester' ...



Actually, he *is* saying they aren't DOA...but guess that's just a matter of interpretation. 

But you're getting your Ebay charlatans mixed up. The "untested, not DOA guy" isn't Fester Tester BangyBang. Surprised he hasn't trademarked that yet.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> I am waiting for the next Holy Grail Bubble to float in.



Working on it. But patience is required, 'cause once found there will be a delay while I stash up on what's cheaply available. But as soon as I have enough to last 5 lifetimes (I can't accurately predict when I'll die, you know), I'll spill the beans.  I mean that's what friends are for, right?


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Still have not heard back from that seller who sold me that awful ECC82, was fully tested too and high balance testing numbers. Mind you that 1 triode tested 3x higher than the other. 510-1,500. The tube I got today was very close to NOS from a US seller. I think some shady sellers figure the vast majority of buyers do not have testers. I can name about the same number of good sellers vs bad ones. That is why I recommend everyone with a lot of tubes at least have a cheap emissions tester or better. To at least check for shorts and gas.



I just got the PayPal refund from the 7N7 seller. Happy with the quick response and resolution on that, but fully tested? Um, not.

People are probably already sick of us harping on this, but I wouldn't ever consider putting an Ebay-sourced tube in my amp without testing it first. A good GM tester costs some money if you want a more thorough analysis, but as you say a cheap Sencore or B&K emission tester will do a good job testing for shorts and leakage...stuff that could cause damage to a component if existent.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 27, 2019)

I got a refund from the same customer, no questions asked. The sleeve came off one of my tubes, and both showed grid leakage.  He told me not to bother sending them back as well. It makes me wonder if someone was replacing tubes, and put the old ones back in boxes, they were pretty rough.






I do like this style Amperex compared to others I have heard. This one says Mullard but mine is the same structure and orange Amperex lettering. Bass and mids are very nice and it does not have the harsh high end that I get with other 6dj8's I have tried. Just my opinion mind you. What is the term for this style getter, it seems I saw one called riveted but maybe that is not the right word. Dimple disk?


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> I got a refund from the same customer, no questions asked. The sleeve came off one of my tubes, and both showed grid leakage.  He told me not to bother sending them back as well. It makes me wonder if someone was replacing tubes, and put the old ones back in boxes, they were pretty rough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stay away from anything with a dimple getter, some of the worst sounding tubes I ever heard.


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> Stay away from anything with a dimple getter, some of the worst sounding tubes I ever heard.



LOL but it is the one I like and so far I have tried plenty of others. Each to their own I guess.


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> LOL but it is the one I like and so far I have tried plenty of others. Each to their own I guess.


You got a tremendous upswing in SQ when you go with better tubes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 27, 2019)

TK16 said:


> You got a tremendous upswing in SQ when you go with better tubes.



See, that is the problem in audio. Something else sounds better to one person or a group of people so it must be that way for everyone?  I am saying I prefer the SQ of this tube compared to a dozen other 6dj8's I heard that some folks might consider better. Perhaps in other equipment I would have a different reaction, but this is my take on these tubes, at this time. I am happy with a $30 tube and not $245 more impressed with another I heard Saturday lol.


----------



## TK16

Paladin79 said:


> See, that is the problem in audio. Something else sounds better to one person or a group of people so it must be that way for everyone?  I am saying I prefer the SQ of this tube compared to a dozen other 6dj8's I heard that some folks might consider better. Perhaps in other equipment I would have a different reaction, but this is my take on these tubes, at this time. I am happy with a $30 tube and not $245 more impressed with another I heard Saturday lol.


There is no problem bro, I have tried a lot of tubes over the years and generally know what to stay away from, just giving you my take on the dimple getter tubes. If they work for you thats all that matters in the end.


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> There is no problem bro, I have tried a lot of tubes over the years and generally know what to stay away from, just giving you my take on the dimple getter tubes. If they work for you thats all that matters in the end.



I have tried less of the 6dj8/ECC88's and it may be just the ones I had to compare this to and it took me several attempts to find one I liked. Maybe it is just the style of tube, I do not have that issue with 6sn7's or 12AU7's.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Maybe some of that tube $$$ should go toward new phones.
> 
> (Sent from my phone, btw).



Good advice!  Got any phone recommendations?  I am looking to buy a new one, hopefully with a 3.5mm jack and good sound quality.


----------



## TK16

Wes S said:


> Good advice!  Got any phone recommendations?  I am looking to buy a new one, hopefully with a 3.5mm jack and good sound quality.


I took it as headphones, I do need a new cell though camera is busted.


----------



## Wes S

TK16 said:


> There is no problem bro, I have tried a lot of tubes over the years and generally know what to stay away from, just giving you my take on the dimple getter tubes. If they work for you thats all that matters in the end.


We all have certain aspects of the sound we are looking for in tubes, and they are not always the same.  However, there is a reason why some tubes cost more than others, and are super hard to find.  That said, I do enjoy some of the more affordable ones myself, but my favorite tubes happen to be the harder to find and more expensive ones.  I am always impressed by how a good tube, can totally transform an amp, into something magical.


----------



## TK16

Wes S said:


> We all have certain aspects of the sound we are looking for in tubes, and they are not always the same.  However, there is a reason why some tubes cost more than others, and are super hard to find.  That said, I do enjoy some of the more affordable ones myself, but my favorite tubes happen to be the harder to find and more expensive ones.  I am always impressed by how a good tube, can totally transform an amp, into something magical.


There are a bunch of great tubes that don't break the bank, Foton/Reflektor 3x Mica 50's 6N3P, WE 396A if you can find great deal, D getter Heerlen ECC88, 50's Lorenz Stuttgart PCC88, got 3 pairs of those very cheap in auction, Millard Mitcham 6201 gold pins, Valvo Hamburg 6201 PW,  all I can remember off hand.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 27, 2019)

Wes S said:


> We all have certain aspects of the sound we are looking for in tubes, and they are not always the same.  However, there is a reason why some tubes cost more than others, and are super hard to find.  That said, I do enjoy some of the more affordable ones myself, but my favorite tubes happen to be the harder to find and more expensive ones.  I am always impressed by how a good tube, can totally transform an amp, into something magical.



I really do not go by price and at the end of the day they are my ears and my equipment. I might try something a person recommends, I will give an honest assessment and I either like it, or I do not. I have built and designed my own tube amps, studied tube theory in college, and my career has been spent in fields pertaining to sound and video.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 27, 2019)

Wes S said:


> Good advice!  Got any phone recommendations?  I am looking to buy a new one, hopefully with a 3.5mm jack and good sound quality.



Samsung Galaxy S9+ is the best phone I've ever had. Fast.  Lots of storage (and SD card support), awesome camera, and very good sound.  And it still has a HP jack.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Samsung Galaxy S9+ is the best phone I've ever had. Fast.  Lots of storage (and SD card support), awesome camera, and very good sound.  And it still has a HP jack.


Awesome!  I currently have a Galaxy Note 5, and love it, so staying with Samsung is a plus.  Thanks Ripper!  That is the phone I will get.


----------



## TK16

Wes S said:


> Awesome!  I currently have a Galaxy Note 5, and love it, so staying with Samsung is a plus.  Thanks Ripper!  That is the phone I will get.


Don't do it does not work with ECC82 tubes, you need the 10 for that.


----------



## Wes S

TK16 said:


> Don't do it does not work with ECC82 tubes, you need the 10 for that.


LOL!  Thanks for that.  The 10 it is then. . .wait it does not have a headphone jack?


----------



## TK16

Wes S said:


> LOL!  Thanks for that.  The 10 it is then. . .wait it does not have a headphone jack?


Not sure on that but guessing yes.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 27, 2019)

No HP jack on the Note 10.  But it does have an integrated halon fire suppression system.  One of the enhancement over the previous Note.


----------



## Paladin79

My family only does Iphones, all of my old ones are still functioning and usable for music, ebooks, audible books etc.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> No HP jack on the Note 10.  But it does have an integrated halon fire suppression system.  One of the enhancement over the previous Note.


Just noticed that the 10+ does have a jack, so that is it.  Thanks again!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 27, 2019)

No HP jack on Note 10.  Yep on Galaxy 10+.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> No HP jack on the Note 10.  But it does have an integrated halon fire suppression system.  One of the enhancement over the previous Note.



And I've read that the stock tube is a GE.  Deal killer.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My family only does Iphones, all of my old ones are still functioning and usable for music, ebooks, audible books etc.



I get a new iPhone at work every 2 years with unlimited data, and they don't care if we use it for personal use as long as that usage is, um, respectable.  Sorry @Ripper2860 

I haven't had a personal cell phone in 15 years.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 27, 2019)

14 years for me.  Unlimited data, mobile hot-spot, etc.  I'm an Android man, even though I get to choose any phone (including iPhone) on the Verizon network, I tend to stick with Samsung, although I have strayed with a Google Pixl and an LG.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> See, that is the problem in audio. Something else sounds better to one person or a group of people so it must be that way for everyone?  I am saying I prefer the SQ of this tube compared to a dozen other 6dj8's I heard that some folks might consider better. Perhaps in other equipment I would have a different reaction, but this is my take on these tubes, at this time. I am happy with a $30 tube and not $245 more impressed with another I heard Saturday lol.



My take an all things audio is this: if I like it, it's good. For me. If nobody else likes it, it doesn't make me like it less.  That said, I love recommendations from others -- great way to sort through the wheat and the chaff and discover tubes I may not have picked up on otherwise. There are only a few brands that I consider really rotten out there, and most of the rest are just different flavors of good. Some are really special to me but may be kinda ordinary to others. That's cool. Would be a pretty boring world if we all had the same tastes and preferences.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> 14 years for me.  Unlimited data, mobile hot-spot, etc.  I'm an Android man, even though get to choose any phone on Verizon network.



You can use your work phone for porn?  Damn.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 27, 2019)

I like what I like and I am what I am.  



bcowen said:


> You can use your work phone for porn?  Damn.



Yes.  I've produced and starred in quite a few cell-phone productions.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I like what I like and I am what I am.



Sure.  We all believe you. Yup. We do.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Yes.  I've produced and starred in quite a few cell-phone productions.



Hopefully it only shows up on the dark web.  

I'm kinda nauseous now.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 27, 2019)

I know you've watched them ...

'Die Hard - Die Happy!!'
'The Fluffer that stayed for Dinner'

-- and--

'Around the World in 80 minutes'

I know you have 'cause you're a lifetime subscriber to my Red*Tube* channel.

(Don't worry.  Your secret is safe with me.)

Oooops.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 27, 2019)

bcowen said:


> My take an all things audio is this: if I like it, it's good. For me. If nobody else likes it, it doesn't make me like it less.  That said, I love recommendations from others -- great way to sort through the wheat and the chaff and discover tubes I may not have picked up on otherwise. There are only a few brands that I consider really rotten out there, and most of the rest are just different flavors of good. Some are really special to me but may be kinda ordinary to others. That's cool. Would be a pretty boring world if we all had the same tastes and preferences.



I never say to anyone, this is better, or the SQ is better, I always say this is my opinion, yours may vary or some such. Try doing that with products you sell and you open yourself up to litigation. I always found it a bit too condescending as well to have someone say something is better or worse. If you are happy with what you have, you are happy. A good friend who teaches at the university once told me MP3's and lossless sounded the same to him, so why invest in more equipment. It is easy to explain the technical side but when it comes down to the human ears, if I like one tube more than another, I do not expect anyone to feel or think the same.

I was not crazy about any of the ecc88's I tried Saturday and some were in the $275 range, those were ok IMHO. I had to ask what a dimple getter was, but in all honesty I preferred that tube. YMMV 

When you offer an opinion on sound it is just an opinion unless as in the case of those 7n7's we bought, something is drastically wrong. I have a test amp I even plugged them into since I can fix it in under 15 minutes if I need to, they just made a loud buzzing noise lol. My refund happened within three minutes followed by an email that said, sorry, just throw them away lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> When you offer an opinion on sound it is just an opinion unless as in the case of those 7n7's we bought, something is drastically wrong. I have a test amp I even plugged them into since I can fix it in under 15 minutes if I need to, they just made a loud buzzing noise lol. My refund happened within three minutes followed by an email that said, sorry, just throw them away lol.



I got the same...a quick refund and a note to toss them. His claim that they were "fully tested' is utter BS as there's no way that all 4 of those tubes would have gone through a grid emission test unscathed on even a cheap emission tester.  He's been added to my Ebay seller blacklist.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> I got the same...a quick refund and a note to toss them. His claim that they were "fully tested' is utter BS as there's no way that all 4 of those tubes would have gone through a grid emission test unscathed on even a cheap emission tester.  He's been added to my Ebay seller blacklist.


Careful talk like that could get you in hot water with the Tube Seller's Association of America.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You know you've watched them ...
> 
> 'Die Hard - Die Happy!!'
> 'The Fluffer that stayed for Dinner'
> ...



Oh.  I was expecting something with Debbie or Dallas....seeing you're from Texas and all.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Careful talk like that could get you in hot water with the Tube Seller's Association of America.



But I have a friend on the TSAA's board that would vouch for me.

Wait...you didn't get kicked off, did you?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I get a new iPhone at work every 2 years with unlimited data, and they don't care if we use it for personal use as long as that usage is, um, respectable.  Sorry @Ripper2860
> 
> I haven't had a personal cell phone in 15 years.



Unfortunately I have to pay for mine but oftentimes they are a write off. I am in book groups with a lot of students who cannot always afford to buy a couple books a month so my old ones come in handy there. it is not unusual anymore for a person to have 7 or 8 devices hooked to Audible accounts. What with Amazon and fire sticks, I can walk into most any room in my house and just say play my book and something will start playing it lol.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 27, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Oh. I was expecting something with Debbie or Dallas....seeing you're from Texas and all.



Silly rabbit.  That was well before cell phones.



bcowen said:


> He's been added to my Ebay seller blacklist.



I hope TK doesn't take it too hard.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> But I have a friend on the TSAA's board that would vouch for me.
> 
> Wait...you didn't get kicked off, did you?


I'm reinstated after I do 3 Hail Mary's and 4 Our Fathers, the chairman is a priest.


----------



## Paladin79

A group of four went through the 8 tubes I am sending to Schiit. 6sn7 or equivalent.
top four choices, (the tubes they liked the most and the order)

Ken-Rad VT 231 black glass
Cbs/Hytron 5692
Melz 1578
RCA grey glass 1942

It is early, I have more people who will do a listen so with a larger group the order could change a lot before I am done. There will be a pretty solid contingent who are into classical music and that could really vary the outcome.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I hope TK doesn't take it too hard.



TK has a 752.  Not sure if he actually uses it.    And as soon as you can snatch the pebble from my hand, you'll have one too. That or a new shorts control, whichever comes first.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> A group of four went through the 8 tubes I am sending to Schiit. 6sn7 or equivalent.
> top four choices, (the tubes they liked the most and the order)
> 
> Ken-Rad VT 231 black glass
> ...



Interesting. Were you using the Vali 2?  If so, it just goes to show how far the synergy thing goes. I really liked the CBS/Hytron in the Vali 2. I mean _really_ liked it, although I've only rolled a few tubes through it so far.  Pulled it out and stuck it in the Lyr 3, and zzzzzzzzz.  That 5692 and the Lyr 3 just don't like each other. Don't know why, but that same exact tube that wowed me in the Vali is bloated and lifeless in the Lyr.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> TK has a 752.  Not sure if he actually uses it.    And as soon as you can snatch the pebble from my hand, you'll have one too. That or a new shorts control, whichever comes first.  LOL!


Use it on every tube I sell, just without any electricity.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Use it on every tube I sell, just without any electricity.



Only newbies think they have to plug it in.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 27, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Interesting. Were you using the Vali 2?  If so, it just goes to show how far the synergy thing goes. I really liked the CBS/Hytron in the Vali 2. I mean _really_ liked it, although I've only rolled a few tubes through it so far.  Pulled it out and stuck it in the Lyr 3, and zzzzzzzzz.  That 5692 and the Lyr 3 just don't like each other. Don't know why, but that same exact tube that wowed me in the Vali is bloated and lifeless in the Lyr.



They were in an amp I built for the purpose. I have the same issues with the BH crack compared to the Vali 2, I also wanted something with dual volume controls so each channel could be adjusted just a bit.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 27, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> A group of four went through the 8 tubes I am sending to Schiit. 6sn7 or equivalent.
> top four choices, (the tubes they liked the most and the order)
> 
> Ken-Rad VT 231 black glass
> ...




I've managed to accumulate 3 out of 4 and if you cut me some slack and allow 1945 vs 1942 RCA Gray Glass, I'd have all 4.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 27, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> I've managed to accumulate 3 out of 4 and if you cut me some slack and allow 1945 vs 1942 RCA Gray Glass I'd have all 4.


And you have the Foton ribbed plate and Frankie, also in the final four is a Tung Sol Mouse Ear that I really like. That just leaves the Sylvania Bad Boy and I am sure you have that one.

It came in 5th but the voting was very close between four and five. Using a 100 point system similar to what was used on DAC’s, same music and criteria.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yep.  I have them all except the Tung Sol mouse-ear.  I must get around to snagging one of those.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 27, 2019)

Later tests will have Mullard and Brimar and a friend promised to sneak in one tube that dreams are made of. I am fashioning a cage that can be flipped down over pricey tubes so they do not have to be encased in pvc for those tests.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ….a friend promised to sneak in one tube that dreams are made of.



I thought I was the only one here with 300B's.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep.  I have them all except the Tung Sol mouse-ear.  I must get around to snagging one of those.



I have one I bought from Brent Jesse.  Nicely matched triodes that both hover on the minimum good line. It sounds minimum good too, but I assume that's because it tests minimum good.


----------



## Ripper2860

So what exactly is min. acceptable for 6SN7 on a Triplett 3444?


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> I have one I bought from Brent Jesse.  Nicely matched triodes that both hover on the minimum good line. It sounds minimum good too, but I assume that's because it tests minimum good.


That guy is a great seller!






Possibly several years ago, but definitely not now, the Lyr tube rolling thread has some unhappy campers who bought tubes recently. Including me.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 27, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I thought I was the only one here with 300B's.


This is a 6sn7 equivalent and once again there is a wager involved. There are supposed to be a handful in existence and he has two. I have an inkling what they are only because I know who his dad and grandfather were.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 27, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> There are supposed to be a handful in existence and he has two



I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they are 2 of the 5 or 6 rare 'Good Sounding' GE's that were part of a bad production run.  Most were destroyed once the error was discovered, but a handful made it out of the GE plant and into the hands of collectors.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Interesting. Were you using the Vali 2?  If so, it just goes to show how far the synergy thing goes. I really liked the CBS/Hytron in the Vali 2. I mean _really_ liked it, although I've only rolled a few tubes through it so far.  Pulled it out and stuck it in the Lyr 3, and zzzzzzzzz.  That 5692 and the Lyr 3 just don't like each other. Don't know why, but that same exact tube that wowed me in the Vali is bloated and lifeless in the Lyr.


----------



## attmci (Aug 27, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep.  I have them all except the Tung Sol mouse-ear.  I must get around to snagging one of those.


Why not try a BGRP?

And no love for NU smoke glass (very smooth and cheap)?


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> And you have the Foton ribbed plate and Frankie, also in the final four is a Tung Sol Mouse Ear that I really like. That just leaves the Sylvania Bad Boy and I am sure you have that one.
> 
> It came in 5th but the voting was very close between four and five. Using a 100 point system similar to what was used on DAC’s, same music and criteria.


You will have a lot of fun if you seal one of these tubes and send to the auditors.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 27, 2019)

NU is on my list.   While they are cheap, strong ones do not cross my radar very often.

BGRP -- sure when I win the lotto!!  

Recently procured a smoked glass Brimar CV1988.  Probably not on the same level as the metal based ones pictured, but I'll be giving it a thorough listen soon.

I'll snag a legit B65 someday.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> You will have a lot of fun if you seal one of these tubes and send to the auditors.



There are tubes I will seal in PVC and hope for the best with, they are the ones going to Schiit and many went to @bcowen but as I said earlier, I placed a limit on price for those I will seal and send out. I am not going to run the risk of damaging $275 tubes lol.

Later on some local friends and I will get together and have such tubes as the BGRP Tung Sol, and yes even the Brimar browns but those will not be sealed in pvc. We should have some red base RCA's, Black glass RCA etc in that mix.  As I said earlier, I want to use a hinged cage to conceal those tubes, so all testing will be blind. Different friends in a local audiophile group will lend some of their favorites and I will supply some of my own.

For this testing I have agreed to build four identical class A amps that should be pretty revealing judging by my prototype. Every resistor, capacitor, length of wire etc. will be as close as I can get them to being identical. Dual Alps single gang pots, I believe they are called black widows or some such but they are a quality stepped pot and several of us bought them up when they became available. I cannot take full credit for this amp's design.

This will be A-B-C-D testing but anyone can go back and go A-D, B-A whatever. Because of the music selected and how it will be looped and replayed, a DAC will be involved, The DAC involved is an Aqua Voce S3, and it is the favorite of this group, selected using the same criteria.

This testing will be for 25 criteria and each piece of music selected will be an outstanding example of spacing, airiness, bass, mids, whatever.  Each tube is graded 1-4 on each aspect and a point total is achieved. This is a long and exhausting event and could run 6-8 hours but the results can be quite remarkable. In our DAC testing, one young woman was spot on with the final order of DAC's the group liked best, she will be involved with this testing. This setup teaches people how to listen, or in effect, steers them toward concentrating on specifics. Take any group of individuals and we all have our likes and dislikes musically, I prefer some tubes for rock, some for jazz, some for classical. This will be same source, same amp, same music, same headphones and or speakers. (the amps I am building will have pre-amp out).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I thought I was the only one here with 300B's.



300B's can be found and bought but nice try.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> Why not try a BGRP?
> 
> And no love for NU smoke glass (very smooth and cheap)?



I have NU black glass but I am trying to keep the group of tubes to eight right now or there are plenty of other tubes I could have used.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> There are tubes I will seal in PVC and hope for the best with, they are the ones going to Schiit and many went to @bcowen but as I said earlier, I placed a limit on price for those I will seal and send out. I am not going to run the risk of damaging $275 tubes lol.
> 
> Later on some local friends and I will get together and have such tubes as the BGRP Tung Sol, and yes even the Brimar browns but those will not be sealed in pvc. We should have some red base RCA's, Black glass RCA etc in that mix.  As I said earlier, I want to use a hinged cage to conceal those tubes, so all testing will be blind. Different friends in a local audiophile group will lend some of their favorites and I will supply some of my own.
> 
> ...


It Should be easier to blind test tubes. 

BTW, these are famous B65 cost a lot more than the quoted price.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 28, 2019)

attmci said:


> It Should be easier to blind test tubes.
> 
> BTW, these are famous B65 cost a lot more than the quoted price.



It should be easy for companies like Schiit to blind test since they can set up four amps or preamps lol. I am sending them switches and cables. 

Yeah I have not priced the B65's much before, luckily I know people who can provide tubes I do not own. Same when we did the DAC testing, I have a Gumby and Topping etc but other friends had some pretty pricey R-2R DACS. We kept a few friends from including things that were $10k or more. It would not exactly make them feel good to have their DAC finish 17th out of 20 when they have that much wrapped up in it. It is an opportunity to hear some tubes I do not own and to see if I want to spend the money on them, and if they are worth it SQ wise based on the results of the blind test.

What I sent to Bill, and am sending to Schiit was more just messing around. There are some pretty heavy hitters in the group I deal with locally. Audio engineers, musicians, digital recording folks. The school of music here is quite good as is the engineering dept.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 28, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> NU is on my list.   While they are cheap, strong ones do not cross my radar very often.
> 
> BGRP -- sure when I win the lotto!!
> 
> ...


I have a couple NU grey glass, and they sound more like a Kenrad, than the RCA.  The NU grey glass, are quite forward in the mids and upper mids/lower treble, and have tight bass.  The NU is very clean sounding with a hint of warmth, and are not nearly as warm as the RCA.  Also, I have had the BGRP TS, and was not impressed, but that tube ended up being microphonic and was returned, before I could get some serious hours on it.


----------



## TK16

Regarding the tube tester discussion, if you are interested in a tube tester but do not want vintage, decent priced Maxi Preamp 2.
Though I know for a fact that Gm readings do not match vintage Hickok 752 and probably all models. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/excellent-...6c0acc3d86499a5ffe17f88|iid:1&redirect=mobile


----------



## Wes S

Hey Ripper,

I would love to see a photo of that Brimar Black glass.  I remember seeing it a while ago and thinking it had different plates, than my CV1988.  My Brimar black glass, all 5 of them, have the same plate structure as the Brimar clear glass, but tend to have a taller bottle.  I love the Brimar 6SN7GT!


----------



## Paladin79

Wes S said:


> I have a couple NU grey glass, and they sound more like a Kenrad, than the RCA.  The NU grey glass, are quite forward in the mids and upper mids/lower treble, and have tight bass.  The NU is very clean sounding with a hint of warmth, and are not nearly as warm as the RCA.



good description


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 28, 2019)

Wes S said:


> Hey Ripper,
> 
> I would love to see a photo of that Brimar Black glass.  I remember seeing it a while ago and thinking it had different plates, than my CV1988.  My Brimar black glass, all 5 of them, have the same plate structure as the Brimar clear glass, but tend to have a taller bottle.  I love the Brimar 6SN7GT!



Impossible to see the plate structure, but the top mica indicates that it is different than my Clear Glass Brimar 6SN7GT or my Brimar Smoked Glass CV 1988.

BTW -- The BG 6SN7GT has what appears to be a bottom Halo getter holder while the Clear Glass has a bottom rectangle getter holder.


----------



## attmci (Aug 28, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Virtually impossible to see the plate structure, but the top mica indicates that it is different than my Clear Glass Brimar 6SN7GT or my Brimar CV 1988.


This is a Brimar 6SN7GT.
The B65 was made by Marconi/Osram and sounds different to my ears. Worth the current price? I am not sure and have no plan to aquire another.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 28, 2019)

Yes.  What we are trying to ascertain is the difference in structure difference between this Brimar Black Glass 6SN7GT and the Clear Glass 6SN7GT.  While I cannot clearly make out the plate structure, the bottom structure below the base and the top mica structure on the BG is different from my Brimar Clear Glass 6SN7GT or my Brimar Smoked Glass CV1988.  (Or my Marconi B65 which is really a re-badged Brimar 6SN7GT).


----------



## attmci (Aug 28, 2019)

I had tried to use mixtures of 6SN7GTs before just for fun.


----------



## TK16

attmci said:


> I had tried to use mixtures of 6SN7GTs before just for fun.


Beautiful look amp bro.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> A group of four went through the 8 tubes I am sending to Schiit. 6sn7 or equivalent.
> top four choices, (the tubes they liked the most and the order)
> 
> Ken-Rad VT 231 black glass
> ...


I thought I would be not buying any expensive tubes soon, but I may need to do an exception for that Ken-Rad VT 231 black glass, what?


----------



## Wes S (Aug 28, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Impossible to see the plate structure, but the top mica indicates that it is different than my Clear Glass Brimar 6SN7GT or my Brimar Smoked Glass CV 1988.
> 
> BTW -- The BG 6SN7GT has what appears to be a bottom Halo getter holder while the Clear Glass has a bottom rectangle getter holder.


Interesting.  I have seen several variations of that tube, and will have to give all mine another look.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I thought I would be not buying any expensive tubes soon, but I may need to do an exception for that Ken-Rad VT 231 black glass, what?



That is up to you, so far the tubes have been through half a dozen people, and it rates up there, I personally like the CBS/Hytron a bit better in some situations, different music, different amp.

The testing I will be doing after the tubes come back from Schiit will have the very best such tubes I can lay my hands on. Some of those tubes can be $275 up, but if the testing shows there are some folks like as well or better, that should show too. I know Bill took a lot of time and went through a lot of trouble and knows his test music well. I have tried to spell out what will be happening in the no price limits testing, and I believe in the process. I have been through it personally and helped set it up with an engineering group the last time we did such a thing. There is one guy associated who has done some pretty serious recording sessions but I hesitate to give out much info there in a public forum.  I will just say he teaches professionals and still does plenty of studio work himself.


----------



## TK16

TK16 said:


> Regarding the tube tester discussion, if you are interested in a tube tester but do not want vintage, decent priced Maxi Preamp 2.
> Though I know for a fact that Gm readings do not match vintage Hickok 752 and probably all models.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/excellent-working-maxi-preamp-2-tube-tester-12ax7-12au7/264445214215?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=e26f16d28ce64cbe9722b5aab211ba72&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&sd=264445214215&itm=264445214215&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2481888&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:00a2e515-c99b-11e9-a31f-74dbd180972f|parentrq:d87f4f9e16c0acc3d86499a5ffe17f88|iid:1&redirect=mobile


Sorry to quote my own post but this seller offered me a 5% discount on this tester around $712. Though I expressed no interest in buying it. That's a good deal.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 28, 2019)

TK16 said:


> Sorry to quote my own post but this seller offered me a 5% discount on this tester around $712. Though I expressed no interest in buying it. That's a good deal.



That is probably a wonderful tester if you are manufacturing pre-amps and want to include some specific, well matched tubes.

I got another dimpled getter Amperex 6dj8 someone sent me and once again, I like this tube lol.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they are 2 of the 5 or 6 rare 'Good Sounding' GE's that were part of a bad production run.  Most were destroyed once the error was discovered, but a handful made it out of the GE plant and into the hands of collectors.



My wife looks for "mistake" coins that have stamping or other mint errors. To collectors, some of these can be worth thousands on Ebay, and some worth 6 figures through formal coin auctions.  She just found a penny that is very clearly dated 2093. If she's been to the future without telling me I'm gonna be pissed, but then she'd already know that, right?  

Have no idea what it's worth (maybe a whole cent), but it's pretty cool nonetheless.


----------



## Keno18

Now with the equalizers in place I finished cycling through my modest collection of tubes. The conclusion for my system seems to be the rca 12au7a clear top is the winner. The highs have a smooth delicate airy quality I hadn't heard before. Very similar to the DarkVoice with 6sn7gt mouse ears. The bass has sufficient authority and detail without muddiness. Mids are just where they should be. Soundstage is wide and deep with plenty of instrument separation and definition. The DarkVoice differs in that it has an easier time driving the Senn HD6XX'S which I think is to be expected. At this point I can use either amp for critical listening. Now for some new music.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> So what exactly is min. acceptable for 6SN7 on a Triplett 3444?



1.7 is minimum good, 2.6 is average NOS.  Below is a 3444A, but the 3444 is the same.

BTW, this is an excellent resource for old manuals, or if you want to see what test numbers mean on any particular vintage tester. Just download the tube data for the tester in question.

http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Sorry to quote my own post...



I'm required to report this infraction to the Tube Tester Seller's Association of America.  Sorry, nothing personal.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> 300B's can be found and bought but nice try.



I got tired of looking, so I decided to just add a headphone jack to my Jota.  I figure 22 watts/channel should be enough to drive the Aeons OK.  Now I just need a 150' long headphone cable to get from the big rig to the headphone listening chair.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> I'm required to report this infraction to the Tube Tester Seller's Association of America.  Sorry, nothing personal.


No need to get nasty, I'll just edit the post!


----------



## TK16

Keno18 said:


> Now with the equalizers in place I finished cycling through my modest collection of tubes. The conclusion for my system seems to be the rca 12au7a clear top is the winner. The highs have a smooth delicate airy quality I hadn't heard before. Very similar to the DarkVoice with 6sn7gt mouse ears. The bass has sufficient authority and detail without muddiness. Mids are just where they should be. Soundstage is wide and deep with plenty of instrument separation and definition. The DarkVoice differs in that it has an easier time driving the Senn HD6XX'S which I think is to be expected. At this point I can use either amp for critical listening. Now for some new music.


You can find cheap Heerlen D getter ECC82 long plates fairly cheap especially if only need 1 tube, the RCA's are great for the money but I found the Heerlen absolutely fantastic, I rate that tube in my top 5 all time.


----------



## Keno18

TK16 said:


> You can find cheap Heerlen D getter ECC82 long plates fairly cheap especially if only need 1 tube, the RCA's are great for the money but I found the Heerlen absolutely fantastic, I rate that tube in my top 5 all time.


I'll keep an eye out, thanks for the tip.


----------



## TK16

Keno18 said:


> I'll keep an eye out, thanks for the tip.


I believe this is 1, 8 pics and not 1 pic of the getter. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Amperex-EC...?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144&redirect=mobile
Bought a couple single Mullard Blackburn ECC82 that tested around this tubes readings, the were over 2,000 in Gm.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 28, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I got tired of looking, so I decided to just add a headphone jack to my Jota.  I figure 22 watts/channel should be enough to drive the Aeons OK.  Now I just need a 150' long headphone cable to get from the big rig to the headphone listening chair.


Build your own cable, that way I have no liability issues when your headphones become a giant fuse.

Considering the distance I would use 10 awg wire, the weight of the wire will either build up your neck muscles or your head will keep toppling over; eventually your family will get used to that and just think you are buttered. (drunk)


----------



## Keno18

TK16 said:


> I believe this is 1, 8 pics and not 1 pic of the getter.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Amperex-EC...?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144&redirect=mobile
> Bought a couple single Mullard Blackburn ECC82 that tested around this tubes readings, the were over 2,000 in Gm.


A little too rich for my blood ATM, but this has Xmas gift written all over it.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Build your own cable, that way I have no liability issues when your headphones become a giant fuse.
> 
> Considering the distance I would use 10 awg wire, the weight of the wire will either build up your neck muscles or your head will keep toppling over; eventually your family will get used to that and just think you are buttered. (drunk)



I was planning on using this just to minimize the voltage drop.  I'll be needing some of that fancy sleeving you have though so it's not an eyesore.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 28, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I was planning on using this just to minimize the voltage drop.  I'll be needing some of that fancy sleeving you have though so it's not an eyesore.



I will certainly see if I can find something that fits your style and social standing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




These are going to Jason, practically the same thing, only different.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I will certainly see if I can find something that fits your style and social standing.



Not sure anything that cheap can be actually purchased and will likely require some dumpster diving. 





Paladin79 said:


>



You might check on the trademark, but Mad Scientist Audio may already have that look locked up.  

http://madscientist-audio.com/pc-first.html


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 28, 2019)

QUOTE="bcowen, post: 15153882, member: 489394"]Not sure anything that cheap can be actually purchased and will likely require some dumpster diving. 





You might check on the trademark, but Mad Scientist Audio may already have that look locked up.  

http://madscientist-audio.com/pc-first.html

[/QUOTE]

As a member of the trade I am not supposed to say much about other companies products but Hell's ducks, does that stuff sell? If so they are either geniuses or they went out of business within a week

I mean that in the nicest possible way. I try to make cables look like they belong, these have silver plated OFC braid. I wish I could still find this cable but alas I only have a few feet of it left.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> As a member of the trade I am not supposed to say much about other companies products but Hell's ducks, does that stuff sell? If so they are either geniuses or they went out of business within a week.



I've been aware of their existence for the last 4 or 5 years. Have no idea how long they've been in business though.  That cord scares me just by looking at it, but they do have this stuff that is kinda cool. It's messy, but it's not expensive and makes an audible difference depending on where you use it. Nothing night and day, but noticeable:

http://madscientist-audio.com/graphene_ce.html

And then there's this cable. I've seen postings from people going into nearly lunatic raves about it, and some calling it the equivalent of a $10 Belden from Amazon.  I haven't tried it. I don't have the technical knowledge to support or refute their marketing claims, but what I *do* know is that hell will have entered a new ice age before I spend $400 on a USB cable.  

http://madscientist-audio.com/bmusb.html


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> I was planning on using this just to minimize the voltage drop.  I'll be needing some of that fancy sleeving you have though so it's not an eyesore.


Ah Ha!  There is more Yellow speaker wire...I knew there had to be more.
Bill, can you terminate the one end with bananas and the other small spades?


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> I've been aware of their existence for the last 4 or 5 years. Have no idea how long they've been in business though.  That cord scares me just by looking at it, but they do have this stuff that is kinda cool. It's messy, but it's not expensive and makes an audible difference depending on where you use it. Nothing night and day, but noticeable:
> 
> http://madscientist-audio.com/graphene_ce.html
> l



A friend got on to the Graphene train early on, when is was esoteric over on Audiogon... He said he could hear a difference. For $49 I am sure he could...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I've been aware of their existence for the last 4 or 5 years. Have no idea how long they've been in business though.  That cord scares me just by looking at it, but they do have this stuff that is kinda cool. It's messy, but it's not expensive and makes an audible difference depending on where you use it. Nothing night and day, but noticeable:
> 
> http://madscientist-audio.com/graphene_ce.html
> 
> ...



For $400 I will personally build you two such cables and throw in an ounce of unicorn sweat. But seriously I have experimented and can get decent distances beyond 15 feet using quality products I trust.


----------



## Robert Padgett (Aug 28, 2019)

http://madscientist-audio.com/tweaks.html

Anyone else buy the little velvet bags full of magical BBs or shot that was designed to be wrapped around a cable? I was given a pair, I laughed so hard I blew stuff out my nose...

http://madscientist-audio.com/tubetoppers.html


----------



## Wes S (Aug 29, 2019)

TK16 said:


> I believe this is 1, 8 pics and not 1 pic of the getter.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Amperex-EC...?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144&redirect=mobile
> Bought a couple single Mullard Blackburn ECC82 that tested around this tubes readings, the were over 2,000 in Gm.


Nice find!  That is a d foil getter and a really good price, and if I did not have 3 of them already, I would jump on that one.  I doubt you can find one cheaper, if this is the tube you are looking for.  Looks like a good return policy, as well.


----------



## Paladin79

https://www.etsy.com/listing/718013...au7&ref=sr_gallery-1-2&organic_search_click=1

I like an option like this, generally he lists tube specs but I bet he would have them if asked.


----------



## TK16

Wes S said:


> Nice find!  That is a d foil getter and a really good price, and if I did not have 3 of them already, I would jump on that one.  I doubt you can find one cheaper, if this is the tube you are looking for.  Looks like a good return policy, as well.


Good seller too, wish I got this instead of the bad one I'm returning. That seller never got back to me about paying for my return shipping due to item not as described. Going to leave appropriate feedback once I get my money.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

I am enjoying the combination of aune T1SE DAC and Vali 2. Many combinations of tubes work well, Brimar + RCA Grey glass, even 2 Grey glass, however, as soon as I put in MELZ 6H8C anywhere (and I have several of them), the sound gets somewhat unpleasant to ears - same as when I was still using Mimby for a DAC. Foton 1951 works fine. Go figure. Apparently, my hearing is not made for MELZ tubes. Otherwise, I like the same as many on this thread.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 29, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I am enjoying the combination of aune T1SE DAC and Vali 2. Many combinations of tubes work well, Brimar + RCA Grey glass, even 2 Grey glass, however, as soon as I put in MELZ 6H8C anywhere (and I have several of them), the sound gets somewhat unpleasant to ears - same as when I was still using Mimby for a DAC. Foton 1951 works fine. Go figure. Apparently, my hearing is not made for MELZ tubes. Otherwise, I like the same as many on this thread.



Which version of the Melz tube do you have? Currently the 1578 is inching up toward the top with folks who are checking out my 8 6sn7 equivalents.

The Melz as well as Foton are tubes on which I replace all solder in the pins, that seems to help.  Are you talking Melz like this:


 I am not sure on Russian tubes if the terms 6n8s and 6h8c are interchangeable but they could be, I just do not have time to look it up right now lol.

There are some Fotons on Ebay that certainly appear to be the sought after 1953 versions:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-1578-6SN7-Ribbed-Anode-Matched-Pair-NEW-Photon-Same-Date-04-1953/173925293250?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=1&asc=57921&meid=48e028c0c904442cb8005293eeb6cf3a&pid=100005&rk=3&rkt=12&sd=323896807723&itm=173925293250&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

I will be changing out the pin solder first thing on these though, I am not a believer in 100 hours of burn in.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Which version of the Melz tube do you have? Currently the 1578 is inching up toward the top with folks who are checking out my 8 6sn7 equivalents.
> 
> The Melz as well as Foton are tubes on which I replace all solder in the pins, that seems to help.  Are you talking Melz like this:
> 
> ...


My MELZ tubes are  like the one tagged as "original 1578" in the picture. There is nothing technically wrong with the sound - I just do not like the sound signature as we discussed before. I cannot quite grasp what it is. Everything is there: space, speed, balance, but sounds irritatingly thin. As said above, no such problem with my Foton 6H8C from 1951 (ladder plates). There are several structures of the Soviet 6H8C. I saw MELZ tubes branded as 1578 with a completely different structure, than in the picture. That is not the point, however. I wonder how come. I could try to reflow the solder.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> My MELZ tubes are  like the one tagged as "original 1578" in the picture. There is nothing technically wrong with the sound - I just do not like the sound signature as we discussed before. I cannot quite grasp what it is. Everything is there: space, speed, balance, but sounds irritatingly thin. As said above, no such problem with my Foton 6H8C from 1951 (ladder plates). There are several structures of the Soviet 6H8C. I saw MELZ tubes branded as 1578 with a completely different structure, than in the picture. That is not the point, however. I wonder how come. I could try to reflow the solder.


I will help with any soldering advice you need if you do decide to try it. I have mentioned most of that before but if need be call upon me and I will help you in PM.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> Ah Ha!  There is more Yellow speaker wire...I knew there had to be more.
> Bill, can you terminate the one end with bananas and the other small spades?



Well, I couldn't find any spades with a large enough barrel size, so I'll be using these instead. These are the gold-plated audiophile version:





Bananas were no problem...have them on order.  These are from Chile which sound much better than anything sourced from South America.


----------



## Ripper2860

Nice!


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> A friend got on to the Graphene train early on, when is was esoteric over on Audiogon... He said he could hear a difference. For $49 I am sure he could...



It's goopy and messy...like thick black oil paint that never dries. Even if it was the next audio holy grail, you won't find me using it on tube pins and RCA connectors...be a real PITA to clean out of there if wanted or needed. I can hear a difference when using it on the end caps of fuses, and on cartridge clips on the turntable. I have tried it in several other places and could not hear any difference at all, so IMO it is application specific. Snake Oil?  Perhaps. But nothing ventured, nothing gained.  I got the small $25 sample bottle, have tried it in a number of different spots, and still have half of it left.  One of those things were using a little is better than using a lot.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> For $400 I will personally build you two such cables and throw in an ounce of unicorn sweat. But seriously I have experimented and can get decent distances beyond 15 feet using quality products I trust.



How much without the unicorn sweat?  

I've tried several USB cables, from a "premium" Belden (very nice construction quality, gold plated connectors, around $8 on Amazon) to a mid-priced Pangea to a more expensive Shunyata to a more expensive Zu.....and then tried building a couple of my own, one leaving the 5v wire out (the EITR doesn't need power from the USB bus), and all I can say is that I'll be damned if I can hear much (if any) difference between them. I'm using a used Zu now not because of the sound, but because I got it cheap, it's nicely constructed, and most importantly it's very thin and flexible and works well in conjunction with my laptop and moving it around.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> How much without the unicorn sweat?
> 
> I've tried several USB cables, from a "premium" Belden (very nice construction quality, gold plated connectors, around $8 on Amazon) to a mid-priced Pangea to a more expensive Shunyata to a more expensive Zu.....and then tried building a couple of my own, one leaving the 5v wire out (the EITR doesn't need power from the USB bus), and all I can say is that I'll be damned if I can hear much (if any) difference between them. I'm using a used Zu now not because of the sound, but because I got it cheap, it's nicely constructed, and most importantly it's very thin and flexible and works well in conjunction with my laptop and moving it around.



I have met one person who could hear much difference in cables, and many who said they could. The difference was between solid copper and solid silver wire. I go for bulk wire I can trust like Belden, Canare, and Mogami. Otherwise I do not pay a lot of attention to boutique cables.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> How much without the unicorn sweat?
> 
> I've tried several USB cables, from a "premium" Belden (very nice construction quality, gold plated connectors, around $8 on Amazon) to a mid-priced Pangea to a more expensive Shunyata to a more expensive Zu.....and then tried building a couple of my own, one leaving the 5v wire out (the EITR doesn't need power from the USB bus), and all I can say is that I'll be damned if I can hear much (if any) difference between them. I'm using a used Zu now not because of the sound, but because I got it cheap, it's nicely constructed, and most importantly it's very thin and flexible and works well in conjunction with my laptop and moving it around.



Since you bring USB cables up… I have a Topping D30, uses it's own power supply. I was thinking about making an USB cable minus the 5v, like you mentioned doing. Did you find it made any audible difference (compared to the same powered USB cable)?


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> I have met one person who could hear much difference in cables, and many who said they could. The difference was between solid copper and solid silver wire. I go for bulk wire I can trust like Belden, Canare, and Mogami. Otherwise I do not pay a lot of attention to boutique cables.



Funny we had discussed these many times before.


----------



## bcowen

Nope.  I made 3 of the same length with the same wire and same connectors. One with all 4 wires, one with no 5v wire, and one with no 5v and no ground wire (only the + and - signal wires).  That last one didn't work at all, and in fact I think it was @Paladin79 that backed that up over on the DIY cable forum quite a while back -- the ground wire has to be there for the cable to work at all (and apologies Tom if I'm confusing you with someone else). The cable with the ground wire but less the 5v wire worked fine, but I couldn't detect any meaningful sonic difference between it and the full 4-wire cable at all.  But that was just one trial with one particular wire and one particular assembler (those USB pins are a supreme PITA to solder to even with a 22 gauge wire), so I won't rule out the possibility that a difference _could_ exist with a different wire, construction, and/or assembly expertise.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 29, 2019)

Tom made me 2x special USB cables, one with no 5v+ and the other with no 5v+ or -.  The one with no 5v + or - works perfectly on my Topping D50, but would not work with my Modi MB or EITR.  The one with only no 5v+ works with the Topping D50,  or Modi MB and EITR.

Now can I hear a diff?  With EITR - No.  With the D50 - Maybe.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Tom made me 2x special USB cables, one with no 5v+ and the other with no 5v+ or -.  The one with no 5v + or - works perfectly on my Topping D50, but would not work with my Modi MB or EITR.  The one with only no 5v+ works with the Topping D50,  Modi MB  and EITR.



Interesting.  I only tried this through the EITR feeding the Cary DAC-100t, and the one without the ground wouldn't work -- no sound. I double checked continuity and all, so it wasn't a flaw in the cable itself.

More importantly, do you hear any difference in sound with either cable without the 5v connection compared to what else you were using?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 29, 2019)

I'll double check my facts.  Maybe even the no - didn't work with Mimby.  Tom actually made me 3 if you include the NORMAL USB and my recall may be flawed.

I'll also A/B the cables and see if I can hear  any diff.  I added a linear PSU to the D50 about the same time so maybe that's what I heard.  Now that I'm aclimated to the sound, I'll be better equipped to assess.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Now can I hear a diff?  With EITR - No.  With the D50 - Maybe.



I like a man that's confident in his opinions.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Aug 30, 2019)

Bought KR VT-231 BG. Now looking at
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ECC32-Mull...velope-brown-base-Extremely-Rare/123888888265


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Nope.  I made 3 of the same length with the same wire and same connectors. One with all 4 wires, one with no 5v wire, and one with no 5v and no ground wire (only the + and - signal wires).  That last one didn't work at all, and in fact I think it was @Paladin79 that backed that up over on the DIY cable forum quite a while back -- the ground wire has to be there for the cable to work at all (and apologies Tom if I'm confusing you with someone else). The cable with the ground wire but less the 5v wire worked fine, but I couldn't detect any meaningful sonic difference between it and the full 4-wire cable at all.  But that was just one trial with one particular wire and one particular assembler (those USB pins are a supreme PITA to solder to even with a 22 gauge wire), so I won't rule out the possibility that a difference _could_ exist with a different wire, construction, and/or assembly expertise.



I do not recall talking about the ground wire in USB but that is possible. I built @Ripper2860's cables for sure but just followed what he asked for. I did not have the exact equipment he was using to check them out.

A word about cables...The most you can hope for with a cable is to maintain the signal that enters the cable. A cable itself or any variation thereof should not cause that signal to sound better than what you  have enter it. Cables can vary in resistance, capacitance, impedance etc. but most effects you can bring about by adding or changing things are not generally good ones IMHO. You can add a different gauge wire or solid versus stranded wire to increase conductivity and lower resistance. If you bi-wire speakers, it can cause a slight difference in signal level. 

You can trap out certain frequencies but i will not get into that right now.

In wires that handle a digital signal, the same holds true except you are dealing with the equivalent of 1's and 0's, and type of wire and shielding can be more important but once again, you are trying to preserve what is there, not delay it, or clip the signal. If you are going to spend $400, spend it on the equipment because a lot more is happening before or after the signal hits a USB cable. Use quality cable for sure, a cable where you are guaranteed one piece will be identical to the next you buy but do not expect a lot of sound differences there.

Back to tubes, some folks love, and some hate the Melz 1578 but in some testing done over the last couple days, people were more likely to pick it out compared to other tubes including some very good sylvania, tung sol, ken rad, whatever. Right now with current votes it is the favorite among the group but maybe for the wrong reasons. It is distinguishable, the mids are more forward sounding and jump out at you IMHO. Maybe that is why people notice it more and give it some very good scores. So far I have had no one say the highs are harsh, but terminology in audio can be tricky to replicate. Some say the other seven tubes sound similar, and this tube just sounds so very different.  Right now this is not serious testing, that will happen whenever the tubes come back from Schiit and there will be no limits set on which tubes the Melz might go up against. The results should be more well defined.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll double check my facts.  Maybe even the no - didn't work with Mimby.  Tom actually made me 3 if you include the NORMAL USB and my recall may be flawed.
> 
> I'll also A/B the cables and see if I can hear  any diff.  I added a linear PSU to the D50 about the same time so maybe that's what I heard.  Now that I'm aclimated to the sound, I'll be better equipped to assess.



It has been a while but was the improvement supposed to be that you are eliminating the 5 volt line and any noise it might induce? I know at the time you mentioned a reason for doing this. I am just trying to follow the theory. Would better shielding give the same result?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 30, 2019)

Yes.  PCs are electrically noisy and the thought is that noise can be injected from the computer into the DAC via the unused 5v + line, sounds plausible.  Since my DAC is externally powered, I figured it was worth a try.   Not really sure what audible difference it has, but it doesn't hurt.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Yes.  PCs are electrically noisy and the thought is that noise can be injected from the computer into the DAC via the unused 5v + line.  Sounds plausible and since my DAC is externally powered, I figured it was worth a try.   Not really sure what audible difference it has, but it doesn't hurt.


Yes, I have done component level repair on PC’s and their power supplies. I also taught some switch mode power supply theory.


I have some more thoughts on tubes that I will try to relay later on.


----------



## Paladin79

Ok here is a theory on tubes, and it is my theory and my opinion, nothing more.

I believe we like things that are out of the norm, that might be harder to obtain. I have been told that Russians do not consider the Melz 1578 that great of a tube, and would rather buy Sylvanias. Americans have a lot of access to Sylvania, RCA, Tung Sol etc. yet here we are looking for specific Russian tubes, or British tubes. Occasionally there are some US made tubes we think the world of but some recent tests are a prime example of my theory.

A friend thought most of the 8 tubes (6sn7 equivalent) I presented him in a blind test sounded similar, then he got to the Melz and it was so different, it stood out to him. He picked it as his favorite.  Last Saturday I went through a bunch of Amperex from different periods and most all of them sounded harsh and raspy, I basically just plugged them all in without looking at the types very closely and my favorite was one that probably sounded the least like the others, but I liked the sound. It may have been the cheapest, and least sought after yet, it sounded so different to me, and I was not getting the harshness I disliked in the other tubes, with my amp and DAC setup.

Do I think the overall SQ of single triode tubes is better than some really nice dual triode 6sn7's, doubtful, but they sound different. The spacing is nice. Will a 7n7 rank towards the top in my testing? Or a Foton ribbed plate 1954? Possibly but once again, when you listen to a lot of RCA's and Sylvania's, they sound very different so to me that could be part of it. I like to do blind testing because you can eliminate some of the preformed ideas. That does not mean a tube like a GE would finish toward the top, there are tubes that can be stand out in a bad way. 

If you have access to a lot of Brimars, is that your tube of choice if you are British? Just some thoughts, nothing else.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> I've been aware of their existence for the last 4 or 5 years. Have no idea how long they've been in business though.  That cord scares me just by looking at it, but they do have this stuff that is kinda cool. It's messy, but it's not expensive and makes an audible difference depending on where you use it. Nothing night and day, but noticeable:
> 
> http://madscientist-audio.com/graphene_ce.html
> 
> ...



I am staying away from cable discussions for one simple reason. I had been reviewing a set of speaker cables which cost almost $3K, but the review came to an end. @Paladin79 terminated some good quality cables and shipped them to me at no charge. I attached the speakers and plugged into the integrated, and the sound was as good, certainly not worse. He had explained what a cable does, and what a cable could not do.
That was all I needed to hear, and I submitted my resignation to the "Do expensive Cables make a huge difference?" debating society. Does good quality cable work better than speaker wire that looks like an extension cord? Maybe, I don't know. I do know that quality runs of cable don't need to cost an arm and a leg.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> Ok here is a theory on tubes, and it is my theory and my opinion, nothing more.
> 
> --cut--  I like to do blind testing because you can eliminate some of the preformed ideas. That does not mean a tube-like a GE would finish toward the top, there are tubes that can be stand out in a bad way.
> 
> If you have access to a lot of Brimars, is that your tube of choice if you are British? Just some thoughts, nothing else.



I am not British, but discovering Brimar valves from the early 1960s has certainly opened my eyes. I have the 1951ribbed Foton and the Melz 1578, and they sound great on the Vali 2. Rolling 6sn7 into the Valhalla 2 was not a good experience. 
@Ripper2860 suggested a pair of the Brimar CV4033, and I bought a set. Oh, Boy, Howdy! They were $90 for the pair at Tubemonger.com and they are the best sounding valves for my headphone rig. Our friends at Vivatubes.com had a similar offer, the CV 4024 for sixty a pair. I am using them as my daily listeners with the CV4033 in reserve. I pulled up the sign that read, "We Buy Cheap Tubes" and have no desire to look back. 
I am still very new to tubes. My Vali 2 arrived in December. It has been a learning curve, with no regrets. Once you find a set of valves which work and make the best music, the desire to keep looking wanes fast.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Aug 30, 2019)

I am revisiting my tube collection in the new setup with aune T1. Now going through 6C8G. Some sound gorgeous in vali 2, but do not quite work in aune technically (blurry sound on higher loads). Ken-Rad VT163 sound absolutely awesome, and do not cost a lot. So do National Union VT-163 with support rods (btw, see a pair at good price https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NIB-6C8G-Tubes-National-Union-Simular-to-6F8G/264437192805).

Otherwise, found 15 pieces NOS NIB CBS Hytron 6J5 $5 apiece and bought them all. They also have loads of Ken-Rad JAN6J5M which I want to try, and more than a 1000 pieces EC8010 from Siemens and Philips, but these I cannot buy all .


----------



## TK16

Was going to post this as a non joke post, with a fantastic price for Amperex 6922 D getter USA. But then I noticed the seller. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PA...6c0a4b7b6c13472ffd6d599|iid:1&redirect=mobile


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It has been a while but was the improvement supposed to be that you are eliminating the 5 volt line and any noise it might induce? I know at the time you mentioned a reason for doing this. I am just trying to follow the theory. Would better shielding give the same result?



@Ripper2860 just wanted some free cables.  His only rationale was....free.  You could have sent him some 30 year old lamp cord with dry rotted insulation falling off in chunks and he’d never have known the difference, assuming you’d encased it in some pretty sleeving.


----------



## Ripper2860

Frankly, I cannot recall if I paid for them.  I have purchased cables from Tom in the past, so the assumption that they are free would be incorrect, sir.


----------



## Paladin79

I do believe Ripper did pay for them but my memory is a little hazy. He may be the person I offered 9 different shades of blue to and he still wanted the jacket color to be half way between the first and last shade of blue. It made me want to give choices like Henry Ford, the color is black, that is the only color, go away and leave me alone. I could be thinking of someone else though.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 30, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> He may be the person I offered 9 different shades of blue to and he still wanted the jacket color to be half way between the first and last shade of blue.



That would NOT be me.  The nit-pickiness about shades of blue sounds like @bcowen and his aversion to Duke's basketball program and their winning ways.


----------



## Paladin79

Come to think of it the guy kept saying his name was NOT Bill Cowen and could he please have all of his cables in Duke Blue. He was humming the duke fight song in the background, I believe he also had a talking parrot. After a while I just asked to talk to the parrot, it was easier.


----------



## bcowen (Aug 30, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> That would NOT be me.  The nit-pickiness about shades of blue sounds like @bcowen and his aversion to Duke's basketball program and their winning ways.



Yeah, I'm guessing you'd be wishy-washy'n about different shades of pink.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Come to think of it the guy kept saying his name was NOT Bill Cowen and could he please have all of his cables in Duke Blue. He was humming the duke fight song in the background, I believe he also had a talking parrot. After a while I just asked to talk to the parrot, it was easier.



You'd be seeing a minivan in my driveway long before you'd ever see a Duke Blue _anything_ in my house.  I'm not one of those fanatical Duke haters, I just hate them in a more normal and healthy way.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Bought KR VT-231 BG. Now looking at
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/ECC32-Mull...velope-brown-base-Extremely-Rare/123888888265



Wow.  Those are up in 300B price territory.  Did you buy them?

I couldn't figure out if this was a typo or intentional transposition:






Dead Quiet?  Or Quite Dead?  LOL!


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I'm guessing you'd be wishy-washy'n about different shades of pink.



It's Fuschia, dammit!  Not pink!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Aug 31, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Wow.  Those are up in 300B price territory.  Did you buy them?
> 
> I couldn't figure out if this was a typo or intentional transposition:
> 
> ...


Yeah. I bought KR VT-231 BG from the same seller, noticed the description. I was pissed-off having lost an auction where I would have paid more, than I wanted, for the tubes that I do not need (same type KR VT-231), so I offered $75 for that KR and it was automatically accepted. Hothead. But no, not those Brimars. Generally, I have the tubes I need, just will stock up on NOS EC8010 and NOS 6J5 (plenty of 7A4 already in my stash) - just in case. I have enough great 6SN7 and 6C8G tubes to roll occasionally, and my mainstay is twin setups of 7A4, 6J5 and EC8010 - in various combinations. @Paladin79 lead me to a combination of equipment on which my music sounds wonderful to me. I am enjoying it in a completely new dimension. I just spent less than a year and only several thousand dollars in equipment and in tubes during my journey. I can replicate the setup for lest than a $1,000, everything included. I cannot wait to hear how you find it, @bcowen.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 31, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Yeah. I bought KR VT-231 BG from the same seller, noticed the description. I was pissed-off having lost an auction where I would have paid more, than I wanted, for the tubes that I do not need (same type KR VT-231), so I offered $75 for that KR and it was automatically accepted. Hothead. But no, not those Brimars. Generally, I have the tubes I need, just will stock up on NOS EC8010 and NOS 6J5 (plenty of 7A4 already in my stash) - just in case. I have enough great 6SN7 and 6C8G tubes to roll occasionally, and my mainstay is twin setups of 7A4, 6J5 and EC8010 - in various combinations. @Paladin79 lead me to a combination of equipment on which my music sounds wonderful to me. I am enjoying it in a completely new dimension. I just spent less than a year and only several thousand dollars in equipment and in tubes during my journey. I can replicate the setup for lest than a $1,000, everything included. I cannot wait to hear how you find it, @bcowen.



I am glad you like that setup so much @Old Deaf Donkey, and I like it as well of course. It is not easy to find an inexpensive tube DAC and luckily there are plenty of used Aunes out there so the expense is not that great. I was fortunate to be in a position to hear 20 very good DACS not too long ago and a big part of them is the power supply and output stage. Aune does some things very well, for its price.  When you can change the tube and vary the sound a bit it is such a wonderful tool to have at your disposal. I do need to check out the EC8010's sometime, once I clear a few projects out of my way. 

One final listen before these tubes go to Jason at Schiit.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok here is a theory on tubes, and it is my theory and my opinion, nothing more.
> 
> I believe we like things that are out of the norm, that might be harder to obtain. I have been told that Russians do not consider the Melz 1578 that great of a tube, and would rather buy Sylvanias. Americans have a lot of access to Sylvania, RCA, Tung Sol etc. yet here we are looking for specific Russian tubes, or British tubes. Occasionally there are some US made tubes we think the world of but some recent tests are a prime example of my theory.
> 
> ...



First, I agree with all your points. Only thing I would add is the synergy aspect.  As I've mentioned before, the CBS/Hytron 5692 sounds fantastic in the Vali 2 (to my ears). But in the Lyr 3?  Pretty meh.  There are at least a half-dozen other tubes that sound better in the Lyr 3 than the CBS, and most of those are less expensive.  Same tube, same ears, same personal preferences, but different components and a subsequently different synergy.  

I haven't messed around with Amperex 6DJ8's enough to offer anything useful, but you like a version that some others consider less desirable. Could be very simply a synergy thing where that particular version just clicks with your setup better than most others. Just another worthless opinion, but when I want my opinion I'll give it to me.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> One final listen before these tubes go to Jason at Schiit.



Wait....I don't see any of those beautiful extensions in that picture.  My day is ruined.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Wait....I don't see any of those beautiful extensions in that picture.  My day is ruined.



Oh one was in the Vali 2 right now. I will make a little sign to go out with the adapters saying, parts and some labor were provided by Bill Cowen Esquire.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> First, I agree with all your points. Only thing I would add is the synergy aspect.  As I've mentioned before, the CBS/Hytron 5692 sounds fantastic in the Vali 2 (to my ears). But in the Lyr 3?  Pretty meh.  There are at least a half-dozen other tubes that sound better in the Lyr 3 than the CBS, and most of those are less expensive.  Same tube, same ears, same personal preferences, but different components and a subsequently different synergy.
> 
> I haven't messed around with Amperex 6DJ8's enough to offer anything useful, but you like a version that some others consider less desirable. Could be very simply a synergy thing where that particular version just clicks with your setup better than most others. Just another worthless opinion, but when I want my opinion I'll give it to me.



In the case of my ears, my equipment, and my setup I do not pay a whole lot of attention to what others consider desirable, I am as objective as much as subjective listening allows me to be. The pinched waist version sounded ok but did not cause me to want to own one for $275, just not enough difference.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh one was in the Vali 2 right now. I will make a little sign to go out with the adapters saying, parts and some labor were provided by Bill Cowen Esquire.



ROFL!!


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> . @Paladin79 lead me to a combination of equipment on which my music sounds wonderful to me. I am enjoying it in a completely new dimension. I just spent less than a year and only several thousand dollars in equipment and in tubes during my journey. I can replicate the setup for lest than a $1,000, everything included. I cannot wait to hear how you find it, @bcowen.



Likewise, my journey has been only since December, when the Vali 2 arrived. Almost a year, and look what we have learned...


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> Only newbies think they have to plug it in.


...
.......
.....................
......................... Nah, no comment. BTW, I noticed in your signature, you have a MrSpeakers Aeon Flow Closed-Back pluged into your Lyr. Do you have any buyer's remorse about those cans (if compared to the Ether C.... or closed back versions of the Audeze LCD)?


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> ...
> .......
> .....................
> ......................... Nah, no comment. BTW, I noticed in your signature, you have a MrSpeakers Aeon Flow Closed-Back pluged into your Lyr. Do you have any buyer's remorse about those cans (if compared to the Ether C.... or closed back versions of the Audeze LCD)?



I haven't heard the Ethers or Audeze so can't offer any comparison.  I will say that I loved the AFC's at first listen, and that hasn't changed a bit.  I look at other 'phones every now and then, but the AFC's join a very short list of audio stuff I own (or have owned) that give me no real urge to think about upgrading.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 31, 2019)

Wow.  So they're right up there with your Bose 901s, K-tel turntable, and GE 6201 tubes.  That's really saying something!


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> Wow.  So they're right up there with your Bose 901s, K-tel turntable, and GE 6201 tubes.  That's really saying something!


6201 tubes are quite good.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Wow.  So they're right up there with your Bose 901s, K-tel turntable, and GE 6201 tubes.  That's really saying something!



301's.  How many times do I have to tell you it's the Bose _301's_.  901's are way too much for my wallet and more than I could ever hope for. But my 301's are still better than your Yorx all-in-one system, although I _am_ missing the built-in 8-track player.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yes said it was a one-of-a-kind TOTL Marantz when you sold it to me.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Yes said it was a one-of-a-kind TOTL Marantz when you sold it to me.



Did I grind off the Yorx logo?  Can't remember. But I _do_ remember buying a new Koetsu with the $2500 you paid me for it.


----------



## Ripper2860

TK16 said:


> 6201 tubes are quite good.



I notice you did not specifically state GE 6201s are quite good.


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> I notice you did not specifically state GE 6201s are quite good.


No not my cup of tea, perhaps @bcowen can give his expertise on the GE 6201. My experiences with 6201's are the not as good as GE Hamburg 6201 PW and Mullard Mitcham 6201 Just by name alone the GE's are better. At least that is what someone told me in PM.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> No not my cup of tea, perhaps @bcowen can give his expertise on the GE 6201. My experiences with 6201's are the not as good as GE Hamburg 6201 PW and Mullard Mitcham 6201 Just by name alone the GE's are better. At least that is what someone told me in PM.



Yes, you should definitely consider replacing all that European junk you have with genuine GE's.  Since I'm such a nice guy, I'll consider doing a 1-for-1 swap.  But only for you, and only 'cause I'm such a nice guy.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Yes, you should definitely consider replacing all that European junk you have with genuine GE's.  Since I'm such a nice guy, I'll consider doing a 1-for-1 swap.  But only for you, and only 'cause I'm such a nice guy.


Sure looking for a pair of D-getter GE.......... C A2900 and the 12AU7 variant as well, think it is B329 or something.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Paladin79 said:


> For $400 I will personally build you two such cables and throw in an ounce of unicorn sweat. But seriously I have experimented and can get decent distances beyond 15 feet using quality products I trust.


These photos & builds take my grade-9-high-school-science-curriculum, gaze at Ohms Law (and factors that affect resistance), and say,... _meh, I can do better._ Love it!!!!


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> I haven't heard the Ethers or Audeze so can't offer any comparison.  I will say that I loved the AFC's at first listen, and that hasn't changed a bit.  I look at other 'phones every now and then, but the AFC's join a very short list of audio stuff I own (or have owned) that give me no real urge to think about upgrading.


Good information for me, thanks. According to store photos, the AFC (AeonFlow Closed) have a similar cup shape as a Senheisser HDxxx, right? Does the bottom sit on your jawbone? Do your ears graze the inside speaker screens?
_Do your ears hang low,
Do the wander to and fro,
Can you tie them in a knot,
Can you tie them in a bow.... etc. etc. etc. Christ almight._ Sorry, @bcowen . I roasted up some fresh coffee last night and am way too wired up. I'll go audition them & make my own decisions.


----------



## Paladin79

ScubaMan2017 said:


> These photos & builds take my grade-9-high-school-science-curriculum, gaze at Ohms Law (and factors that affect resistance), and say,... _meh, I can do better._ Love it!!!!



I always reach a point where the money involved just does not justify the difference in SQ. You have to do a lot of talking to convince someone to spend a lot of money for little if any results. Tubes do have differences, some are more obvious than others but once again is there a $200 difference and can you consistently tell one from another? Once you get down to a Sylvania Bad Boy and Ken-Rad black glass, the differences probably become less obvious and I need to A/B such things. For someone to listen to one, then another is not so easy. I was once told it can take a couple minutes for your ears to adjust to the new sound but I forget where I heard that.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 1, 2019)

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Good information for me, thanks. According to store photos, the AFC (AeonFlow Closed) have a similar cup shape as a Senheisser HDxxx, right?



Well. kinda sorta. but different.    Most of the Senn HDxxx's are more of an elongated oval from the pictures I've seen (never had any of them myself). The front edge of the AFC's is pretty much a straight line up and down. According to Mister Mr. Speakers, it's made to fit closely to the natural straight line indention most people have between their temple and bottom of the jawbone to offer the best seal.









ScubaMan2017 said:


> Does the bottom sit on your jawbone? Do your ears graze the inside speaker screens?
> ​




The bottom is *at* my jawbone, but doesn't really sit on it, per se.  And my ears are close to the inside fabric covering the workings. I can feel them touch at times when I put the 'phones on, but once in place they don't touch. I would find it pretty irritating (personally) if my ears were rubbing or touching the inside panels.  There are two types of tuning pads that come with them that filter certain frequencies. Those are basically just placed inside the cup, and with either of them in place I *can* feel my ears touch at times. I've tried them both, but prefer the sound without them so they've never been a factor from the 'touching' standpoint.  I find the AFC's to be very comfortable, and have had them on many times for 6 - 8 hours straight (excluding an occasional removal for a 'fridge or bathroom run) without ever a hint of discomfort.  Of course everyone's head is different, so any opportunity to try before you buy should certainly be taken advantage of.  ​


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well. kinda sorta. but different.    Most of the Senn HDxxx's are more of an elongated oval from the pictures I've seen (never had any of them myself). The front edge of the AFC's is pretty much a straight line up and down. According to Mister Mr. Speakers, it's made to fit closely to the natural straight line indention most people have between their temple and bottom of the jawbone to offer the best seal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I nearly bought the Aeon Flow but the impedance is an issue for me. I would need to change out one of my favorite headphone amps to put them to much use.


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> ….and say,... _meh, I can do better._ Love it!!!!



That's exactly what drove me to try my hand at USB cables.  That turned into a miserable failure.   However, I have made my own interconnects, speaker cables, and power cords, and while some have turned out better than others, I've been quite pleased with the results.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I nearly bought the Aeon Flow but the impedance is an issue for me. I would need to change out one of my favorite headphone amps to put them to much use.



Yeah, the extremely low impedance is certainly something to pay attention to with these. They work beautifully with the Lyr 3 and the Vali 2, but that's the extent of my personal amplifier experience with them.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yeah, the extremely low impedance is certainly something to pay attention to with these. They work beautifully with the Lyr 3 and the Vali 2, but that's the extent of my personal amplifier experience with them.



I may grab some new headphones if I end up with a Lyr and Bifrost 2 as a bedroom setup. I was planning on making a cable for @bcowen but the cat ate that one.

Oh yeah this has the Teco name on it but I believe it is a Sylvania staggered black plate, not a bad sounding tube.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I may grab some new headphones if I end up with a Lyr and Bifrost 2 as a bedroom setup. I was planning on making a cable for @bcowen but the cat ate that one.
> 
> Oh yeah this has the Teco name on it but I believe it is a Sylvania staggered black plate, not a bad sounding tube.



Who needs graphene contact enhancer when you have cat saliva available?  I'll bet it makes any system purr.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Great posts, @bcowen ... @Paladin79 . I'm adding it to my 'research further - 3rd headphone 2020 purchase' folder. _My work week's ramping up next week. As I cringe mark my grade 9's science diagnostics... I'll be taking breaks at my listening nook. Since I'm coming/and/going, I'm restricting my headphones amping to my (Magni/Vali) stack. Weekends are for deep Valhalla listening_.


----------



## Paladin79

I built all cables and two of the boxes, this will allow Jason to switch between four devices and four  6sn7 equivalent tubes, then on into an amp. I figured four Sagas would be best. Everything is kind of crammed together on my desktop right now.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I built all cables and two of the boxes, this will allow Jason to switch between four devices and four  6sn7 equivalent tubes, then on into an amp. I figured four Sagas would be best. Everything is kind of crammed together on my desktop right now.



Despite my poke in the other thread, those are some _really_ nice looking cables.  My compliments!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Despite my poke in the other thread, those are some _really_ nice looking cables.  My compliments!



The cables are kind of bunched up here, I am running all four sets from a Vali 2 and I can check them individually to be sure all shielding is proper.


----------



## Paladin79

Shown with the finished octal extenders here and some longer sets of cables. @bcowen did much of the work on the extenders.


----------



## TK16

@bcowen , how do you like the AFC`s? I have the AFO`s myself, quite good, warm and extremely comfortable. May look to buy a closed can in the future as all mine are open and with the portable air conditioner and/or fans in the summer, kind of distracting.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> @bcowen , how do you like the AFC`s? I have the AFO`s myself, quite good, warm and extremely comfortable. May look to buy a closed can in the future as all mine are open and with the portable air conditioner and/or fans in the summer, kind of distracting.



I'm very happy with my AFC's.  The sound presentation hits all my preferences right on the money.  I haven't heard the opens though, which I would assume sound more, um, open.    I needed the closed configuration to ensure continued domestic peace.  External noise is not an issue for me, but I can only imagine the bible belt-bred spousal units' reaction at the first notes of Marilyn Manson that floated her way.  

I only started with headphones a couple years ago. First pair I bought on Amazon were widely acclaimed as hitting way above their price. They sucked so bad I didn't know if all my years with a full size 2-channel system had poisoned me for eternity or whether the 'phones themselves just sucked. Returned them (thanks Amazon) and got a pair of Monoprice M1060's.  Ahhhh….now the clouds were parting and sunlight starting to stream in.  Those were quite good 'phones, but I found them a bit boring.  Then a friend suggested Mr. Speakers, and I snagged a pair of used Alpha Primes on Audiogon for a good price. A nice step up from the M1060's, and further into "I _like_ this" land.  I'd only had those a couple weeks when a pair of the AFC's popped up here on HeadFi.  A bit of back and forth with the seller and ended up at a price we were both happy with. The AFC's are another rung up the ladder from the Alphas, and honestly I like them well enough that I haven't had any real urge to reach for the next rung.  Yet.  But I'm afflicted with the dreaded audiophiliac disease, so it's only a matter of time before my meds quit working....


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I'm very happy with my AFC's.  The sound presentation hits all my preferences right on the money.  I haven't heard the opens though, which I would assume sound more, um, open.    I needed the closed configuration to ensure continued domestic peace.  External noise is not an issue for me, but I can only imagine the bible belt-bred spousal units' reaction at the first notes of Marilyn Manson that floated her way.



Would the reaction be anything like this…







bcowen said:


> I only started with headphones a couple years ago. First pair I bought on Amazon were widely acclaimed as hitting way above their price. They sucked so bad I didn't know if all my years with a full size 2-channel system had poisoned me for eternity or whether the 'phones themselves just sucked. Returned them (thanks Amazon) and got a pair of Monoprice M1060's.  Ahhhh….now the clouds were parting and sunlight starting to stream in.  Those were quite good 'phones, but I found them a bit boring.  Then a friend suggested Mr. Speakers, and I snagged a pair of used Alpha Primes on Audiogon for a good price. A nice step up from the M1060's, and further into "I _like_ this" land.  I'd only had those a couple weeks when a pair of the AFC's popped up here on HeadFi.  A bit of back and forth with the seller and ended up at a price we were both happy with. The AFC's are another rung up the ladder from the Alphas, and honestly I like them well enough that I haven't had any real urge to reach for the next rung.  Yet.  But I'm afflicted with the dreaded audiophiliac disease, so it's only a matter of time before my meds quit working....



Do tell, what were the first ones? I need to know, just in case they're something I like. Then I can disregard all opinions of yours from now on


----------



## Paladin79

This is what I am shipping to Jason at Schiit for the 6sn7 equivalent tube shootout September 12th. Most likely he will use Saga's but it is feasible he can set up Lyr 3's and use pre-amp and headphone outs if he likes.


----------



## Keno18

Just set up my vintage Technics SL-D1 turntable circa 1980. Still works perfectly after a couple of decades of non-use. The Vali likes vynl.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Do tell, what were the first ones? I need to know, just in case they're something I like. Then I can disregard all opinions of yours from now on



Well, at the risk of offending someone that may have them, I'll spill the beans:





Seriously, they were the V-Moda Crossfade LP2's.  If you like bass, they would be THE 'phone to have. Midrange, treble? Um, not.  I think their true frequency response was like 30 -  400 Hz.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, at the risk of offending someone that may have them, I'll spill the beans:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, they were the V-Moda Crossfade LP2's.  If you like bass, they would be THE 'phone to have. Midrange, treble? Um, not.  I think their true frequency response was like 30 -  400 Hz.



OMG say it is not so Joe, um I mean Bill.

If you had told me I would have taken up a collection and got you something more listenable.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This is what I am shipping to Jason at Schiit for the 6sn7 equivalent tube shootout September 12th. Most likely he will use Saga's but it is feasible he can set up Lyr 3's and use pre-amp and headphone outs if he likes.



That's a big pile of schiit.  Wait..I mean a big pile _*for*_ Schiit.  

Are some of those tubes longer than others, or is that just a photographic illusion?  All the ones you sent me for the previous challenge were all the same length.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> OMG say it is not so Joe, um I mean Bill.
> 
> If you had told me I would have taken up a collection and got you something more listenable.



Well, if you're taking up a collection, I'd consider these more listenable.  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's a big pile of schiit.  Wait..I mean a big pile _*for*_ Schiit.
> 
> Are some of those tubes longer than others, or is that just a photographic illusion?  All the ones you sent me for the previous challenge were all the same length.



They are all the same length, it is just an illusion, or 70's flashback that causes you to think otherwise. Your tubes were special of course, these going to Jason are more special, then finally there will be a no limits listen that many friends are donating tubes that will not be encased in PVC. This way some of the high end Chinese tubes, with their odd shapes, can go into the challenge as well. After that challenge, there will be nowhere else to go with 6sn7 equivalents and I will move on to other things.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Well, if you're taking up a collection, I'd consider these more listenable.  LOL!


You need an electrostatic or something to that effect. Perhaps a mortgage on your house is possible?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> They are all the same length, it is just an illusion, or 70's flashback that causes you to think otherwise. Your tubes were special of course, these going to Jason are more special, then finally there will be a no limits listen that many friends are donating tubes that will not be encased in PVC. This way some of the high end Chinese tubes, with their odd shapes, can go into the challenge as well. After that challenge, there will be nowhere else to go with 6sn7 equivalents and I will move on to other things.



So that brings up the next logical question: how you gonna pry those Chinese tubes out of @TK16 's hands?  He'll have nothing left to silkscreen.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> You need an electrostatic or something to that effect. Perhaps a mortgage on your house is possible?



Already have a mortgage.  But I could get a home improvement loan.  The Voce's would be in the house, and the home would thereby be improved. Right?  Makes sense to me.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> So that brings up the next logical question: how you gonna pry those Chinese tubes out of @TK16 's hands?  He'll have nothing left to silkscreen.


I do still have the dead worm out 58 ECC82 Heerlen D-getter still. Opened an official return due to no communication from that awful seller. The quad I almost sniper bid, didn't thankfully as this clown has feedback with problems with it.  If you look past the noise/microphonics and 510-1,500 Gm readings, it has good silk screening already. I can let this dead tube go for 85 shipped if anyone is interested.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> I do still have the dead worm out 58 ECC82 Heerlen D-getter still. Opened an official return due to no communication from that awful seller. The quad I almost sniper bid, didn't thankfully as this clown has feedback with problems with it.  If you look past the noise/microphonics and 510-1,500 Gm readings, it has good silk screening already. I can let this dead tube go for 85 shipped if anyone is interested.



Re-silkscreen it as a GE and it will sound like true NOS.


----------



## TK16 (Sep 4, 2019)

I included a pic of my request for that tube I might be selling in the thread.No communication as well. Potential buyers please disregard the pic.
But seriously stay away from this seller classic-tech. Unless @bcowen sees some Western Electric 300B I think. Seller is highly NOT recommended.

Ad.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-PHILIPS...-GETTER-VACUUM-TUBE-TEST-STRONG-/273951625864


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> I included a pic of my request for that tube I might be selling in the thread.No communication as well. Potential buyers please disregard the pic.
> But seriously stay away from this seller classic-tech. Unless @bcowen sees some Western Electric 300B I think. Seller is highly NOT recommended.
> 
> Ad.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-PHILIPS...-GETTER-VACUUM-TUBE-TEST-STRONG-/273951625864



I'm only interested in GE 300B's.  But thanks for thinking of me.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 4, 2019)

So I just received four '58 Foton 6N8S's.  Seeing as I already have umpteen million of them, why more?  I have to experiment here for my own edification.  Check out the beautiful soldering job on these pins:





I'm pretty sure my pin soldering skills are pretty lame, but I'm also sure that even my worst soldering attempts look better than this.  None of the ribbed plate versions I have ('56 and prior) have pins that look *this* bad. So my question is simply are the '50's versions with ribbed plates really better than the non-ribbed, or did something else change in the process at the same time the plate design was changed?   Maybe the non-ribbed sound just as good as the ribbed, but the soldering quality suffered a big decline when things changed which makes the tubes sound subjectively worse.  So, I'm going to completely remove and replace the solder in 2 of these, and leave 2 as-is. I'll test them to see how they match up with GM (and I have some other '58's I can add to the mix if I don't get good matches with these 4). After re-doing the solder, I'm going to give all four tubes about 5 hours of burn-in in the Cary. Most truly unused tubes do have sonic changes initially (at least in the first few hours) so I want to rule that out as a variable as best possible. Then I'll put 100 hours on one of the re-soldered ones and one of the as-is ones, and then compare them to the two that have only 5 hours. And them compare those to some well broken-in (more than 100 hour) ribbed plate versions, one with reflowed (but not totally replaced) solder and one that hasn't been touched with a soldering iron.  Why is this important? I have no friggin' idea, other than I wonder about it and I hate wondering about things.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 5, 2019)

bcowen said:


> So I just received four '58 Foton 6N8S's.  Seeing as I already have umpteen million of them, why more?  I have to experiment here for my own edification.  Check out the beautiful soldering job on these pins:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure my pin soldering skills are pretty lame, but I'm also sure that even my worst soldering attempts look better than this.  None of the ribbed plate versions I have ('56 and prior) have pins that look *this* bad. So my question is simply are the '50's versions with ribbed plates really better than the non-ribbed, or did something else change in the process at the same time the plate design was changed?   Maybe the non-ribbed sound just as good as the ribbed, but the soldering quality suffered a big decline when things changed which makes the tubes sound subjectively worse.  So, I'm going to completely remove and replace the solder in 2 of these, and leave 2 as-is. I'll test them to see how they match up with GM (and I have some other '58's I can add to the mix if I don't get good matches with these 4). After re-doing the solder, I'm going to give all four tubes about 5 hours of burn-in in the Cary. Most truly unused tubes do have sonic changes initially (at least in the first few hours) so I want to rule that out as a variable as best possible. Then I'll put 100 hours on one of the re-soldered ones and one of the as-is ones, and then compare them to the two that have only 5 hours. And them compare those to some well broken-in (more than 100 hour) ribbed plate versions, one with reflowed (but not totally replaced) solder and one that hasn't been touched with a soldering iron.  Why is this important? I have no friggin' idea, other than I wonder about it and I hate wondering about things.



I will say it again, the Russians did not have quality solder.  Replacing it will solve the solder issues.
Using extra flux is important when doing this.
There may have been other changes after 1957 but hopefully they started using better solder at some point. Some of the Melz from the 1980's also had issues with solder of course so being 60 years old or 40 years old does not seem to change much.

I tried it on ribbed 1953’s as well.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> So I just received four '58 Foton 6N8S's.  Seeing as I already have umpteen million of them, why more?  I have to experiment here for my own edification.  Check out the beautiful soldering job on these pins:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure my pin soldering skills are pretty lame, but I'm also sure that even my worst soldering attempts look better than this.  None of the ribbed plate versions I have ('56 and prior) have pins that look *this* bad. So my question is simply are the '50's versions with ribbed plates really better than the non-ribbed, or did something else change in the process at the same time the plate design was changed?   Maybe the non-ribbed sound just as good as the ribbed, but the soldering quality suffered a big decline when things changed which makes the tubes sound subjectively worse.  So, I'm going to completely remove and replace the solder in 2 of these, and leave 2 as-is. I'll test them to see how they match up with GM (and I have some other '58's I can add to the mix if I don't get good matches with these 4). After re-doing the solder, I'm going to give all four tubes about 5 hours of burn-in in the Cary. Most truly unused tubes do have sonic changes initially (at least in the first few hours) so I want to rule that out as a variable as best possible. Then I'll put 100 hours on one of the re-soldered ones and one of the as-is ones, and then compare them to the two that have only 5 hours. And them compare those to some well broken-in (more than 100 hour) ribbed plate versions, one with reflowed (but not totally replaced) solder and one that hasn't been touched with a soldering iron.  Why is this important? I have no friggin' idea, other than I wonder about it and I hate wondering about things.


That is quite the experiment!  Thanks for keeping us in the loop.  I was lucky enough to get a few of the good 50's ribbed Fotons, back in the day, but never got around to giving them some serious hours.  I may have to dust them off, and give them a try.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I will say it again, the Russians did not have quality solder.  Replacing it will solve the solder issues.



Yes, and because you've said that and because it makes total sense as a factor in the stupid-long break-in (maybe THE factor in the stupid long break-in) I'm now buying more friggin' Fotons to experiment with. So this is pretty much all your fault.   I want to know if the ribbed plates really are better than the non-ribbed, or if the solder is what's skewing the sound rather than the plate structure.  I have '57's, '58's, and '59's, and after looking closely at them, the pin soldering is visibly worse for those 3 years (with smooth plates) than what I see in the '55's and prior that I have (with ribbed plates). No dispute that the solder is an issue in all of them, just that in the later years it got even worse, at least visibly.  I would normally consider a solder joint that looks like what I pictured above to be a cold joint. Amazing they work at all, really.


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> That is quite the experiment!  Thanks for keeping us in the loop.  I was lucky enough to get a few of the good 50's ribbed Fotons, back in the day, but never got around to giving them some serious hours.  I may have to dust them off, and give them a try.



Probably need to re-do the pins first.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Yes, and because you've said that and because it makes total sense as a factor in the stupid-long break-in (maybe THE factor in the stupid long break-in) I'm now buying more friggin' Fotons to experiment with. So this is pretty much all your fault.   I want to know if the ribbed plates really are better than the non-ribbed, or if the solder is what's skewing the sound rather than the plate structure.  I have '57's, '58's, and '59's, and after looking closely at them, the pin soldering is visibly worse for those 3 years (with smooth plates) than what I see in the '55's and prior that I have (with ribbed plates). No dispute that the solder is an issue in all of them, just that in the later years it got even worse, at least visibly.  I would normally consider a solder joint that looks like what I pictured above to be a cold joint. Amazing they work at all, really.



All your guy's talk about burn-in and solder had me wondering if the 2 weren't connected too. Maybe after all the heat cycling from 100 or so hours of burn in does something to "restablize" the solder. Maybe it does the opposite? Not to mention the fact that these tube have just been sitting round for 60 odd years probably has some negative effect on the solder


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 5, 2019)

Mr Trev said:


> All your guy's talk about burn-in and solder had me wondering if the 2 weren't connected too. Maybe after all the heat cycling from 100 or so hours of burn in does something to "restablize" the solder. Maybe it does the opposite? Not to mention the fact that these tube have just been sitting round for 60 odd years probably has some negative effect on the solder



I have talked about this. Rosin is used to clean the metal to which the solder adheres. When you subject the pins of the tube to hours of heat I believe it can change conductance over time but it is a slow process.

I took two Foton tubes Bill sent me, removed and replaced the solder in both. I cooked one for 100 hours and measured it and listened to it during the process. After all was done, the emission was slightly less on  the more  used tube but otherwise no change. I used test equipment as well as friends who listened and compared the tubes. I increased the volume slightly on the 100 hour tube and we could not tell them apart. I could take the sound spectrum reading from one and lay it on top of the other. So by measurement and skilled people listening, no change other than 100 hours use on one tube lol.


----------



## bcowen

The Foton experiment, part 1.5:

Here's the original pin appearance (repeat):



 

Sucky original solder thoroughly sucked (out):


 

Resoldered using Wonder solder.  I normally use Cardas, but I used this after @Paladin79 's (excellent) tip that a thinner gauge solder would make things easier, and the Wonder I have is half the diameter of the Cardas:


 

Now comes the interesting part. True NOS (meaning truly _unused_) 6SN7's typically give raw meter readings on my Hickok between 700 and 800, translating to a GM of 2800 - 3200. Minimum raw reading is 400, or a GM of 1600.  Prior to resoldering, this tube measured 275 / 400.  Had it been anything but this Foton I would've donated it to the dead tube society.  After removing the old solder and redoing it?  750 / 775, or GM's of 3000 / 3100.  What was once dead is now alive...and even quite healthily alive.  I think Tom has pointed out quite sufficiently that the solder in these old Fotons sucks.  This is just objectively measurable proof that he's right.  Not that he (or I, for that matter) had any doubt he was correct, but one of my bucket list items is to be able to prove him wrong at some point.  Unfortunately this isn't it.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 7, 2019)

bcowen said:


> The Foton experiment, part 1.5:
> 
> Here's the original pin appearance (repeat):
> 
> ...



Great work on the photos and you are most kind Bill.   I also looked at a 20-20k spectrum on such tubes before the solder and the results varied so much I knew something had to be changing so I attacked the only thing that I could vary. Re-flowing what was there seemed like a short term solution, it can help, but for how long?  I will be interested in your listening results, I would suggest you listen to one you are burning in every six to eight hours and I have a feeling your results will be similar there as well. 

I just feel bad for those sitting around waiting for magic to happen on the Fotons when it can be such a quick and more consistent fix by just replacing the solder.


----------



## TK16

Just refunded by Ebay for that dead ECC82 Heerlen 58. Ebay ruled in my favor. Made no mention about return shipping. Does this means I do not have to send it back?
unrelated, just came across a proper testing ECC82, if anybody is interested. Buyers have to have 1 requirement, Cannot own a tube tester or access to 1. $300 with $400 economy shipping.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Just refunded by Ebay for that dead ECC82 Heerlen 58. Ebay ruled in my favor. Made no mention about return shipping. Does this means I do not have to send it back?



Glad to hear you got your money back!  Takes a while with Ebay, but eventually is better than never in this case.  When that moron shipped the Heathkit tester wrapped with tape, I got a (prepaid) mailing label sent to me by Ebay to ship it back. I can only hope that Ebay sent the idiot an invoice for the return shipping once they got billed by the USPS for it.  That way he was out not only the complete value of the tester, but had to pay another $30 or $40 to Ebay on top of that to get the pile of parts back. I firmly believe that there should be a price attached to stupidity.   If you don't get a prepaid label sent to you, then I wouldn't worry about sending it back. Perhaps Ebay gives the seller the option to pay for return shipping...or not.  If they don't want to pay for it then it would be case closed. But I'm not sure of the details on how that works -- I've never sold anything on Ebay that anyone wanted to return.



TK16 said:


> unrelated, just came across a proper testing ECC82, if anybody is interested. Buyers have to have 1 requirement, Cannot own a tube tester or access to 1. $300 with $400 economy shipping.



If I promise to sell all my testers (have 6 on-hand right now), can I buy it?  Please please?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Great work on the photos and you are most kind Bill.   I also looked at a 20-20k spectrum on such tubes before the solder and the results varied so much I knew something had to be changing so I attacked the only thing that I could vary. Re-flowing what was there seemed like a short term solution, it can help, but for how long?  I will be interested in your listening results, I would suggest you listen to one you are burning in every six to eight hours and I have a feeling your results will be similar there as well.
> 
> I just feel bad for those sitting around waiting for magic to happen on the Fotons when it can be such a quick and more consistent fix by just replacing the solder.



I'm getting better at my pin soldering thanks to practice and some very helpful tips from you.  What helped as well was using paste flux that I have in a syringe. I can squirt the flux into the pin and then clean away any excess on the outside of the pin before I solder which helps keep the solder from wanting to stick to the exterior surface. Of course I couldn't do that without removing all the old solder first (and creating the internal void), and that sucker you linked a while back works fantastic for this purpose. Seeing I have 40+ Fotons to suck and solder now, dramatically reducing the filing and cleanup afterwards is huuuuuuge.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Glad to hear you got your money back!  Takes a while with Ebay, but eventually is better than never in this case.  When that moron shipped the Heathkit tester wrapped with tape, I got a (prepaid) mailing label sent to me by Ebay to ship it back. I can only hope that Ebay sent the idiot an invoice for the return shipping once they got billed by the USPS for it.  That way he was out not only the complete value of the tester, but had to pay another $30 or $40 to Ebay on top of that to get the pile of parts back. I firmly believe that there should be a price attached to stupidity.   If you don't get a prepaid label sent to you, then I wouldn't worry about sending it back. Perhaps Ebay gives the seller the option to pay for return shipping...or not.  If they don't want to pay for it then it would be case closed. But I'm not sure of the details on how that works -- I've never sold anything on Ebay that anyone wanted to return.
> 
> 
> 
> If I promise to sell all my testers (have 6 on-hand right now), can I buy it?  Please please?


Sucks about that tester, NOT intended for me to make you relive that horrible experience. Send me all your working and calibrated tester shipped on your dime and I`ll send you a nice looking display tube. Heard if this tube heats up again all the printing will melt off. So if your listening to cans with this tube, please do not connect the headphones to the amp.

He never responded to the case I opened, doubt seller want to pay return shipping for a tube with 1 triode 3x the other (positive), however 1 triode is 3x weaker (negative). Going to leave negative feedback as soon as I get my money back. All he had to do was respond and paid for return shipping.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Sucks about that tester, NOT intended for me to make you relive that horrible experience. Send me all your working and calibrated tester shipped on your dime and I`ll send you a nice looking display tube. Heard if this tube heats up again all the printing will melt off. So if your listening to cans with this tube, please do not connect the headphones to the amp.
> 
> He never responded to the case I opened, doubt seller want to pay return shipping for a tube with 1 triode 3x the other (positive), however 1 triode is 3x weaker (negative). Going to leave negative feedback as soon as I get my money back. All he had to do was respond and paid for return shipping.



I'd do the same. If the seller of the tester had just refunded my money, I wouldn't have posted a negative feedback. Probably wouldn't have posted any feedback at all. But all he wanted to do was blame it on the Post Office and repeatedly claim it wasn't his fault. And that continued even after I messaged him on two different occasions that who was at fault was entirely irrelevant -- as the seller, it was his responsibility to have the item delivered to me in the condition described in the listing. Anything short of that was his problem, not mine. I'm guessing he didn't insure it, so that little episode cost him in excess of $400. I doubt the USPS even considered paying the automatic $50 insurance that comes with Priority Mail once they looked at how it was (or should say _wasn't_) packaged.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'm getting better at my pin soldering thanks to practice and some very helpful tips from you.  What helped as well was using paste flux that I have in a syringe. I can squirt the flux into the pin and then clean away any excess on the outside of the pin before I solder which helps keep the solder from wanting to stick to the exterior surface. Of course I couldn't do that without removing all the old solder first (and creating the internal void), and that sucker you linked a while back works fantastic for this purpose. Seeing I have 40+ Fotons to suck and solder now, dramatically reducing the filing and cleanup afterwards is huuuuuuge.



I have liquid flux and I can have it flow down a needle to go inside the pins. One variable I did not think of on the tubes you sent, you measured each and they were well matched. I replaced the solder before I did anything and was more concerned about getting the 100 hours in on one of them than anything else, if you have the time, take two that match well, resolder them, then retest and see how they compare. Starting with just two tubes, I wanted to get them to be as close as possible to one another on the solder before I started. There is a measurable difference between them now but as best I recall they were still pretty close after I replaced the solder.


----------



## bcowen

Will do.  I always re-test after I solder them anyway just to be sure I haven't done something or something broke loose inside during the process that would create a short.


----------



## bcowen

I've selected a pair of unplayed ribbed plate '52's that match up identically in GM to the pair of selected smooth plate '58's.  

This is the factory solder job. I'm still going to replace it, but notice the very obvious difference in workmanship quality between it and the '58:


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I've selected a pair of unplayed ribbed plate '52's that match up identically in GM to the pair of selected smooth plate '58's.
> 
> This is the factory solder job. I'm still going to replace it, but notice the very obvious difference in workmanship quality between it and the '58:



That does look better for sure.


----------



## Robert Padgett

bcowen said:


> I've selected a pair of unplayed ribbed plate '52's that match up identically in GM to the pair of selected smooth plate '58's.
> 
> This is the factory solder job. I'm still going to replace it, but notice the very obvious difference in workmanship quality between it and the '58:



Now, boys and girls, let's open our Soviet History books to the period at the end of Stalin. "Joseph Stalin, the second leader of the Soviet Union, died on *5 March 1953* at the Kuntsevo Dacha aged 74 after suffering a stroke."

Hmmm. Stalin died in 1953. Foton Tubes from 1953 and before having better workmanship that those made 5 years (Or "5-year-plan") after the Iron Fist died in his glove.
Maybe Soviet Workers no longer feared a Gulag visit for poor soldering skills? Maybe the quality of Vodka in Novosibirsk got better?

When we play with Geopolitical actors, timing and context help us to understand. I would be interested in the views of Old Deaf Donkey...


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> Well, at the risk of offending someone that may have them, I'll spill the beans:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, they were the V-Moda Crossfade LP2's.  If you like bass, they would be THE 'phone to have. Midrange, treble? Um, not.  I think their true frequency response was like 30 -  400 Hz.


Christ! My dad had a pair of Radio-Shack (Realistic [tm]) cans like that. He would NOT let me touch them when I was 5-10 years old. My current cans would blow his mind.


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Christ! My dad had a pair of Radio-Shack (Realistic [tm]) cans like that. He would NOT let me touch them when I was 5-10 years old. My current cans would blow his mind.



That was just a pic off the net.  What's hilarious is a couple days after I posted that, one of my supervisors walked into my office and handed me a me a pair of RatShack 'phones that he'd picked up at a flea market. Don't think they're the Novas but didn't look that closely at them.  Said "I know you're into the headphone stuff, and these were so cheap I couldn't resist."  I was LMAO.  They're still in the trunk of my car....guess I need to grab them and see if they even still work.  Externally they're in decent shape other than smelling musty.  With a good cleanup, there's a good chance they'll be better than my son's Beats.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Sep 7, 2019)

Robert Padgett said:


> Now, boys and girls, let's open our Soviet History books to the period at the end of Stalin. "Joseph Stalin, the second leader of the Soviet Union, died on *5 March 1953* at the Kuntsevo Dacha aged 74 after suffering a stroke."
> 
> Hmmm. Stalin died in 1953. Foton Tubes from 1953 and before having better workmanship that those made 5 years (Or "5-year-plan") after the Iron Fist died in his glove.
> Maybe Soviet Workers no longer feared a Gulag visit for poor soldering skills? Maybe the quality of Vodka in Novosibirsk got better?
> ...



I would not know the relationship between Stalin's death and quality of soldering. What was happenning periodically was the relaxing of standards with objective to make production simpler and cheaper. Hence inferior materials etc. in the whole chain. Talking about one particular factory, it may have been enough for a diligent head of quality assurance unit to retire or get promoted away. Structurally, in 1953 the Soviets put key emphasis on agriculture, so fellows with expertise in soldering tube pins could have been sent to grow corn in kolkhozes. Remember also that Foton was created by evacuating an existing factory in Fryazino next to Moscow to Tashkent during the WWII. Perhaps in 1953 the original qualified staff were allowed to return to Moscow (Fryazino factory was turned into a research facility at that time and produced tubes for Sputnik control, among other), and young industrious uzbeks were put to soldering the pins at Foton.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I would not know the relationship between Stalin's death and quality of soldering. What was happenning periodically was the relaxing of standards with objective to make production simpler and cheaper. Hence inferior materials etc. in the whole chain. Talking about one particular factory, it may have been enough for a diligent head of quality assurance unit to retire or get promoted away. Structurally, in 1953 the Soviets put key emphasis on agriculture, so fellows with expertise in soldering tube pins could have been sent to grow corn in kolkhozes. Remember also that Foton was created by evacuating an existing factory in Fryazino next to Moscow to Tashkent during the WWII. Perhaps in 1953 the original qualified staff were allowed to return to Moscow (Fryazino factory was turned into a research facility at that time and produced tubes for Sputnik control, among other), and young industrious uzbeks were put to soldering the pins at Foton.



I guess it would be reasonable to assume they didn't have any robotic pin soldering machines back then.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I would not know the relationship between Stalin's death and quality of soldering. What was happenning periodically was the relaxing of standards with objective to make production simpler and cheaper. Hence inferior materials etc. in the whole chain. Talking about one particular factory, it may have been enough for a diligent head of quality assurance unit to retire or get promoted away. Structurally, in 1953 the Soviets put key emphasis on agriculture, so fellows with expertise in soldering tube pins could have been sent to grow corn in kolkhozes. Remember also that Foton was created by evacuating an existing factory in Fryazino next to Moscow to Tashkent during the WWII. Perhaps in 1953 the original qualified staff were allowed to return to Moscow (Fryazino factory was turned into a research facility at that time and produced tubes for Sputnik control, among other), and young industrious uzbeks were put to soldering the pins at Foton.



Thanks, I just see the change of leadership as an event which may have affected quality across many industries.


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Christ! My dad had a pair of Radio-Shack (Realistic [tm]) cans like that. He would NOT let me touch them when I was 5-10 years old. My current cans would blow his mind.



LOL!  It _was_ a pair of Nova 40's he got me.  These will need a serious Lysol session before they go on my head though.  Not like I'm a germ-a-phobe or anything, but I do have limits.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> LOL!  It _was_ a pair of Nova 40's he got me.  These will need a serious Lysol session before they go on my head though.  Not like I'm a germ-a-phobe or anything, but I do have limits.


Didn't know you were interested in pre WW2 stuff, otherwise I might of sent you the first working prototype of the the telephone iI snagged on Ebay. 5,000 bucks for 2 paper cups with string attached is a solid investment imho.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Didn't know you were interested in pre WW2 stuff, otherwise I might of sent you the first working prototype of the the telephone iI snagged on Ebay. 5,000 bucks for 2 paper cups with string attached is a solid investment imho.



If you can send me a pic, I might be interested.  Depends mostly on the quality of the carpet in the photo though.


----------



## bcowen

Hey!!!!   These things aren't half bad!  But that's just an alternative way of saying they aren't half good. If you've ever wondered whether Neil Young could be an ear bleeder via a lossy MP3, you need wonder no longer.    Let's just say that we've come a long, long way with headphones since the time these might have been considered decent.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Hey!!!!   These things aren't half bad!  But that's just an alternative way of saying they aren't half good. If you've ever wondered whether Neil Young could be an ear bleeder via a lossy MP3, you need wonder no longer.    Let's just say that we've come a long, long way with headphones since the time these might have been considered decent.


You just get that Aune? What tube is in it? Definitely a 9 pinner.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> You just get that Aune? What tube is in it? Definitely a 9 pinner.



Yup and yup. $70 on Ebay.  It comes with a 6922, but that's a WE 396A in it right now. The WE sounds better than the RCA-labeled Siemens I first tried, but that's the extent of my rolling at this point. Too little time, too many toys...


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Yup and yup. $70 on Ebay.  It comes with a 6922, but that's a WE 396A in it right now. The WE sounds better than the RCA-labeled Siemens I first tried, but that's the extent of my rolling at this point. Too little time, too many toys...


The WE was my first non ECC88 variant I tried. Was hooked on adapter tubes mostly since. Tube has a really warm sound signature,  very seductive. In a non sexual way. Mostly.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> I guess it would be reasonable to assume they didn't have any robotic pin soldering machines back then.


Well. I did not imply they were soldering the pins manually at Foton . In 1936 the factory in Fryazino (as well as Svetlana in Leningrad) received technology and equipment from RCA for producing the metal bottle tubes, I assume - octals. In 1950ties, at Foton in Tashkent still the same equipment, evacuated from Fryazino in 1941, may have been used for soldering the pins on the octal tubes with glass envelope. In the late 1950ties at Foton they, anyone's guess: (i) started using inferior solder when the state standard of 1950 changed; (ii) introduced new, Soviet made equipment as the old RCA worn out; (iii) changed the staff operating the equipment and/or controlling quality; (iv) any combination of the previous 3.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Well. I did not imply they were soldering the pins manually at Foton . In 1936 the factory in Fryazino (as well as Svetlana in Leningrad) received technology and equipment from RCA for producing the metal bottle tubes, I assume - octals. In 1950ties, at Foton in Tashkent still the same equipment, evacuated from Fryazino in 1941, may have been used for soldering the pins on the octal tubes with glass envelope. In the late 1950ties at Foton they, anyone's guess: (i) started using inferior solder when the state standard of 1950 changed; (ii) introduced new, Soviet made equipment as the old RCA worn out; (iii) changed the staff operating the equipment and/or controlling quality; (iv) any combination of the previous 3.



fascinating information. I cannot imagine they knew at the time that the tubes would still be in use thirty years later, or even sixty years.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> fascinating information. I cannot imagine they knew at the time that the tubes would still be in use thirty years later, or even sixty years.


No one knows anything - all electronic industry was secret in the Soviet, their archives were run by the KGB and all documentation was meticulously destroyed (shredded AND burned) once it had no actual use anymore. Only memories of the living participants that have been recorded after 1990 remain.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Sep 8, 2019)

Robert Padgett said:


> Thanks, I just see the change of leadership as an event which may have affected quality across many industries.


I do not know how the change of political leadership influences the quality of soldering; another reason that I have not mentioned elswhere is that in the mid-1950ties the Soviets finally started manufacturing miniatiure tubes (noval) (they failed miserably in achieving functional quality of their own models in the late 30ties), so that their interest in the octals (and btw loctals which the Soviets adopted in 1946 - I still have to see one, as well as loctals produced by Philips and Mullard!) must have decreased in the second half of the 1950ties.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I do not know how the change of political leadership influences the quality of soldering; another reason that I have not mentined elswhere is that in the mid-1950ties the Soviets finally started manufacturing miniatiure tubes (noval) (they failed miserably in achieving functional quality of their own models in the late 30ties), so that their interest in the octals (and btw loctals which the Soviets adopted in 1946 - I still have to see one, as well as loctals produced by Philips and Mullard!) must have decreased in the second half of the 1950ties.



I am building some amps using 6sn7's and 6as7G's, in doing some research I can recall one engineer saying he preferred octals to miniatures because of the larger cathodes and anodes. They provide more airiness and presence in his opinion. That may well be my problem when trying to use 12At7's and such, I just prefer the octals. The amps will also run 6sl7's so a local group of friends and I may do some blind testing with those down the road as well.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I am building some amps using 6sn7's and 6as7G's, in doing some research I can recall one engineer saying he preferred octals to miniatures because of the larger cathodes and anodes. They provide more airiness and presence in his opinion. That may well be my problem when trying to use 12At7's and such, I just prefer the octals. The amps will also run 6sl7's so a local group of friends and I may do some blind testing with those down the road as well.


Good luck. It is interesting to hear that my bias towards larger tubes is not just psychological but also has engineering justification.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Good luck. It is interesting to hear that my bias towards larger tubes is not just psychological but also has engineering justification.



Some things were done as cost savings. Is combining triodes inside a tube and shielding them better than using two tubes? Doubtful, but it saved money and saved space.


----------



## Robert Padgett

Paladin79 said:


> fascinating information. I cannot imagine they knew at the time that the tubes would still be in use thirty years later, or even sixty years.



Or more importantly, that the tubes would outlive the country.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I do not know how the change of political leadership influences the quality of soldering; another reason that I have not mentioned elswhere is that in the mid-1950ties the Soviets finally started manufacturing miniatiure tubes (noval) (they failed miserably in achieving functional quality of their own models in the late 30ties), so that their interest in the octals (and btw loctals which the Soviets adopted in 1946 - I still have to see one, as well as loctals produced by Philips and Mullard!) must have decreased in the second half of the 1950ties.



That is really interesting. Good info!  As a weird turn of events, fast forward 20 - 30 years and I have these HP's labeled as made by Amperex. They are clearly Russian made tubes, probably Reflektors with their trademark flying saucer getter. The bottle is also larger in diameter, which is normal with Soviet made 6DJ8's and 6922's. May be difficult to see in the bottom photo, but the HP/Amperex on the left is next to a true Holland made Amperex on the right. It's possible someone re-silkscreened these as an attempted fraud, but I don't think so -- the ink is very fragile and chalky and is true to the ink make-up used back in the 60's/70's (and even prior).


----------



## TK16 (Sep 8, 2019)

bcowen said:


> That is really interesting. Good info!  As a weird turn of events, fast forward 20 - 30 years and I have these HP's labeled as made by Amperex. They are clearly Russian made tubes, probably Reflektors with their trademark flying saucer getter. The bottle is also larger in diameter, which is normal with Soviet made 6DJ8's and 6922's. May be difficult to see in the bottom photo, but the HP/Amperex on the left is next to a true Holland made Amperex on the right. It's possible someone re-silkscreened these as an attempted fraud, but I don't think so -- the ink is very fragile and chalky and is true to the ink make-up used back in the 60's/70's (and even prior).


Think the double post getter was used in later tubes, I have read about Russian tubes relabled as Amperex/Philips. Not sure if HP would source Russian tubes during the Cold War.
BTW that bad tube is my avatar, display tube online and in person.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Think the double post getter was used in later tubes, I have read about Russian tubes relabled as Amperex/Philips. Not sure if HP would source Russian tubes during the Cold War.



That makes sense. But if I were going to go to the trouble of relabeling something, I'd relabel it for something with a more highly perceived value. Why label it as an HP rather than just an Amperex?  Can't ever know for sure what transpired with these, but it's a good subject for a new Nancy Drew novel.  



TK16 said:


> BTW that bad tube is my avatar, display tube online and in person.



So then what you're saying is you have a bad avatar?


----------



## TK16

No


bcowen said:


> That makes sense. But if I were going to go to the trouble of relabeling something, I'd relabel it for something with a more highly perceived value. Why label it as an HP rather than just an Amperex?  Can't ever know for sure what transpired with these, but it's a good subject for a new Nancy Drew novel.
> 
> 
> 
> So then what you're saying is you have a bad avatar?


No, avatar is extremely unbalanced and makes web browsers very noisy/micro. I can see my desk tip slightly downward with the 3x as strong Gm triode. 510 Gm on my hickok is easily the worst testing. Highest probability of getting bad tubes for me is ECC82 from Europe and Brent Jessee.


----------



## Robert Padgett

One final time-- I don't think the death of Stalin has anything to do with the quality-performance and degradation of vacuum tube solder over the years. The initial post was about the differences between 1953 vs. 1958 Fotons.

Unlike Western Democracy, which turns over leadership on a regular two-four year cycle, the CCCP had a "strong man" leader, who died. I would be interested also in the changes within the Soviet Industry after his death. 
ODD mentioned the Collective Agriculture emphasis, but in my opinion- the Cold War loomed large during the 1950s--so emphasis Military was still quite strong. 
Were many of these vacuum tubes intended for the early electronic computers? Yes. One early Soviet computer reported used 10,000 tubes.  I will also assert that workers in a Sylvania tube factory probably never anticipated that their tubes would be still working in the 21st Century.


----------



## bcowen

Robert Padgett said:


> I will also assert that workers in a Sylvania tube factory probably never anticipated that their tubes would be still working in the 21st Century.



Do you think the workers in a Sylvania tube factory ever anticipated_ anything_ about the tubes they were making, other than if they did their jobs to the expectation(s) required they got a paycheck?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Robert Padgett said:


> I don't think the death of Stalin has anything to do with the quality-performance and degradation of vacuum tube solder over the years.



Oh. I thought you did.  That's unfortunate. I liked the idea: the Great Leader conks out, workers no longer afraid, stop giving a schiit about soldering as Gulag no longer looming... Here go the Fotons, and now we all have to suck the bad solder.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Sep 8, 2019)

TK16 said:


> Think the double post getter was used in later tubes, I have read about Russian tubes relabled as Amperex/Philips. Not sure if HP would source Russian tubes during the Cold War.
> BTW that bad tube is my avatar, display tube online and in person.


That's interesting. It has not been forbiden to buy the Soviet (or Warsaw Pact countries) tubes in the West during the Cold War - they were excessively taxed to discourage such practice. Enter grey importers as Zaerix UK. I have a pair of Zaerix branded 6J5GT sold as AEG Telefunken, with the Bundeswehr quality acceptance mark etched on the glass, but oh that flying saucer...


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> ...but oh that flying saucer...



Funny how they're always flying upside down.  Too much vodka on the assembly lines, I'd guess.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Hey!!!!   These things aren't half bad!  But that's just an alternative way of saying they aren't half good. If you've ever wondered whether Neil Young could be an ear bleeder via a lossy MP3, you need wonder no longer.    Let's just say that we've come a long, long way with headphones since the time these might have been considered decent.



What is your fascination with electronics ending in 'UNE'?  Is there some hidden message to Amazon with the A-Z?


----------



## Robert Padgett

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Oh. I thought you did.  That's unfortunate. I liked the idea: the Great Leader conks out, workers no longer afraid, stop giving a schiit about soldering as Gulag no longer looming... Here go the Fotons, and now we all have to suck the bad solder.


Well, The only real significant event in 1953 was Uncle Joe kicking the bucket, which may have directly caused poor Soldering skills...Let's wait until those memos are declassified


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Sep 12, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Funny how they're always flying upside down.  Too much vodka on the assembly lines, I'd guess.


Well, they say the workers got drunk at the Soviet factories. Or, rather, came drunk to work. I do not know. All tube factories were military industry in the Soviet, with background checks and security clearances. I guess being drunk at work was not encouraged, to put it mildly.

Below a pic of the pins of my "TF" with the flying saucer. Note the solder that looks OK. Another dead giveaway of the Soviet production are missing pins that are not used in the tube. Saving parts.
EDIT: well. no longer sure of missing pins being a sign of Soviet. I have aother single triods in the same configuration. Not even sure of the flying saucer. Will post later


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> What is your fascination with electronics ending in 'UNE'?  Is there some hidden message to Amazon with the A-Z?



I don't name the stuff, I just blow my money on it although both pieces in the photo were bought at an opport*une* time...used at less than half price.


----------



## TK16

Deal of the day, BUT no luxurious carpeting. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mega-Rare-...&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&redirect=mobile

I'll pass due to the elimination of carpeting.


----------



## Mr Trev

TK16 said:


> Deal of the day, BUT no luxurious carpeting.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mega-Rare-...&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&redirect=mobile
> 
> I'll pass due to the elimination of carpeting.



Not just rare - "mega rare"!
Better act mega fast before they're gone


----------



## Keno18

This is going to get me excommunicated from this thread, but I have to say that I have found my sonic nirvana. The recipe is Tidal played through Foobar using the DSD Transcoder to a native DSD compatible dac into the Vali 2 with an Electro-harmonix 12ax7a. There, I said it. A $12.95 new production tube that has the sound of a NOS. Warm, detailed with depth and width. I've said enough, time to go back and listen to more music.


----------



## Ripper2860

Folks.  It is with a sad heart that I must report that a friend and one our HF members, Robert Padgett has passed away.


----------



## Keno18

Ripper2860 said:


> Folks.  It is with a sad heart that I must report that a friend and one our HF members, Robert Padgett has passed away.


I will miss him.


----------



## bochawa

Ripper2860 said:


> Folks.  It is with a sad heart that I must report that a friend and one our HF members, Robert Padgett has passed away.


 May he rest in peace.  Ripper, you have my condolences.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Folks.  It is with a sad heart that I must report that a friend and one our HF members, Robert Padgett has passed away.


My thoughts are with his family and friends!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Ripper2860 said:


> Folks.  It is with a sad heart that I must report that a friend and one our HF members, Robert Padgett has passed away.


May his soul rest in peace. He is listening to a better sound now. Indeed, he will be missed.


----------



## TK16

Very sad news. Rest in peace bro.


----------



## triggsviola




----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

triggsviola said:


>


Nice picture. Looks like 6C8G in Vali2 through two adapters. Which brand, pray, is the tube?


----------



## Wes S

triggsviola said:


>


Wow!  How tall is that monster?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

I have bought 15 NOS NIB Hytron-marked 6J5GT in original Hytron boxes. In Brussels, from an old, established dealer, $5 apiece.

The sound very good, as good as most of my 6J5GT bar Sylvania's metal base.

The branding is a little odd: no date codes, and most of Hytron branding included Made in the U.S.A. under Hytron. Yet it is exactly the same as on the boxes. The glass envelope is etched "BELGIUM". Why would it be so?



Looking inside, things get even more interesting: this Hytron left, Zaerix-branded "AEG-Telefunken" boxed in the middle, Soyuz Novosibirsk 6C2C on the right. Look somewhat similar, if not exactly the same.

  

One might think they could have been all made on the same production line. Yet why different branding??? Cold war grey imports of Soviet-made tubes? Zaerix had been known for doing this. But then, why brand Soviet tubes Hytron, put them in original looking boxes, etch BELGIUM on the glass? To sell them to NATO? Come on.

Any ideas?


----------



## triggsviola

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Nice picture. Looks like 6C8G in Vali2 through two adapters. Which brand, pray, is the tube?



This is kind of joke. It doesn’t actually work. I ordered two Mullard EL38s for my Euforia but, through a computer error, only one came, so I decided to put it in my Vali. 6922 socket saver -> 6SN7 adapter -> EL38 adapter -> EL38 tube. Lots of noise and only one channel works. This tube is not meant to be a driver tube. It’s meant to be a power tube as part of pair. I don’t think I damaged my amp because it works fine after putting my 6SN7 back. Maybe I destroyed the tube. I won’t know for another month when the other Mullard comes in. It’s a good 8 inches tall.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

triggsviola said:


> This is kind of joke. It doesn’t actually work. I ordered two Mullard EL38s for my Euforia but, through a computer error, only one came, so I decided to put it in my Vali. 6922 socket saver -> 6SN7 adapter -> EL38 adapter -> EL38 tube. Lots of noise and only one channel works. This tube is not meant to be a driver tube. It’s meant to be a power tube as part of pair. I don’t think I damaged my amp because it works fine after putting my 6SN7 back. Maybe I destroyed the tube. I won’t know for another month when the other Mullard comes in. It’s a good 8 inches tall.


Oh, Donkey...


----------



## bcowen

triggsviola said:


> This is kind of joke. It doesn’t actually work. I ordered two Mullard EL38s for my Euforia but, through a computer error, only one came, so I decided to put it in my Vali. 6922 socket saver -> 6SN7 adapter -> EL38 adapter -> EL38 tube. Lots of noise and only one channel works. This tube is not meant to be a driver tube. It’s meant to be a power tube as part of pair. I don’t think I damaged my amp because it works fine after putting my 6SN7 back. Maybe I destroyed the tube. I won’t know for another month when the other Mullard comes in. It’s a good 8 inches tall.



It's fortunate you didn't fry your Vali. An EL-38 pulls 1.4 amps of heater current. The Vali 2 is designed for a 6922 that pulls 300 milliamps.  Lots of folks run tubes that pull 600 milliamps (like me) -- 6SN7's, etc. that the Vali handles without issue, but 1.4 amps?  Ouch.  The EL-38 also draws 95 milliamps of anode current versus the 15 milliamps of a 6922 or 10 milliamps of a 6SN7.  Count your blessings, but if it were me I certainly wouldn't fire it up like that again.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Ripper2860 said:


> Folks.  It is with a sad heart that I must report that a friend and one our HF members, Robert Padgett has passed away.


I heard about this on the other thread. Last time I cyber-chatted with him, he was at the dentist getting some dental work (1.5 weeks back). @Ripper2860 , I appreciated the update.


----------



## bcowen

The Foton 6N8S (6SN7) Experiment, Part 2.

As a refresher, I matched up two '58 Fotons with smooth plates and two '52's with ribbed plates. I selected ones where both triodes matched up very closely on my Hickok -- almost identically, and where all 4 tubes matched up very closely as well.  I sucked out and replaced the solder in one of the '58's and one of the '52's, and left the other two untouched from the factory soldering job. Once that was done I gave all four tubes 5 hours of play time in my Cary preamp just to get over any initial sonic changes.  Sooooooo…..after listening, both the '52 and the '58 with factory solder sounded rather spitty in the treble, were somewhat fatiguing, and lacked slam and impact in the mid and upper bass as well as curtailed bass extension.  The '52 and '58 with the solder replaced? Both sounded great right off the bat. With only 5 hours time, they both sounded like a Foton after 100 hours of play time.  I put the '52 and '58 with the factory solder back in the Cary and gave them an additional 100 hours of play time. Stuck 'em in the Lyr, and guess what?  Both sounded great.  Sounded like Fotons with 100+ hours of play time.   So although this may not be an entirely scientific test, I think it's reasonable objective proof that the long, roller-coaster break-in ride generally ascribed to these particular Fotons has been due -- in part or in full -- to the crappy (or perhaps degraded) factory soldering job as @Paladin79  first suggested.

Now here's the interesting part: from everything I've read and seen reported by others (including my own opinion), the ribbed plate versions ('56 and earlier) sound better than the smooth plate versions ('57 and later). With the solder replaced, I can't tell any real difference between them. Honestly. In fact, were Tom to put a '52 and a '58 in PVC tubes, I wouldn't be betting any steak dinner on my ability to tell which was which. If there are any differences, they are extremely minor at best. The factory soldering job on the ribbed plate tubes looks much better than the soldering on the smooth plate '58's....perhaps the belief that the ribbed plates sound better is simply due to a better factory soldering job (at least visually) on the earlier tubes?

But I'm not done yet. My personal opinion is that any of the '50's tubes (ribbed or smooth plate) sound better than the '60's versions. If you look very closely, the internal construction is identical other than the plate formation. The '60's tubes I have in my possession have the same visually crappy soldering job as the '58's. Maybe the '60's sound just as good once the solder is replaced?  So I'm in the process of matching up some '61's....one I'll replace the solder in and the other I'll leave untouched and go through the same routine with them. Stay tuned for Part 3.  


'52 on the left, '61 on the right:




 

'52 factory solder:



 

'58 factory solder:



 

'61 factory solder:


----------



## Paladin79

I just got some ribbed plate 53’s but I have had no time to change the solder yet. It is great to know that any 50’s Foton can be a nice find, I had a 1954 in the batch I sent Jason.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I just got some ribbed plate 53’s but I have had no time to change the solder yet. It is great to know that any 50’s Foton can be a nice find, I had a 1954 in the batch I sent Jason.



Hope you re-did the pins on that one you sent Jason.  

The ribbed plate versions have all but disappeared from Ebay, but there are currently several ads for '58's at decent prices. And lots of ads for '60's production at very cheap prices.  I'm real interested to see how the '60's fare after redoing the pins. I have some '60's, '61's, '62's and '65's to play with.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hope you re-did the pins on that one you sent Jason.
> 
> The ribbed plate versions have all but disappeared from Ebay, but there are currently several ads for '58's at decent prices. And lots of ads for '60's production at very cheap prices.  I'm real interested to see how the '60's fare after redoing the pins. I have some '60's, '61's, '62's and '65's to play with.


I did, there was no way I was going to run it for 100 hours lol


----------



## Ripper2860

Imagine how much better it would have fared if you had...


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 15, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Imagine how much better it would have fared if you had...


You may want to read up, that myth has been dispelled.

After 100 hours the tube just has less life on it.


----------



## Mr Trev (Sep 15, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Hope you re-did the pins on that one you sent Jason.
> 
> The ribbed plate versions have all but disappeared from Ebay, but there are currently several ads for '58's at decent prices. And lots of ads for '60's production at very cheap prices.  I'm real interested to see how the '60's fare after redoing the pins. I have some '60's, '61's, '62's and '65's to play with.



You do realize the '63 and '64 are the cream of the crop

<edit> you showed before pics. why no after? let's see your handy work


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 15, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> You may want to read up, that myth has been dispelled.
> 
> After 100 hours the tube just has less life on it.




3 words...

Tube Death Rally.  

Also - The research has not been independently verified or submitted and validated via peer review.  

**Note: When I use an emoticon it typically means that I'm kidding.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> 3 words...
> 
> Tube Death Rally.
> 
> ...




It is a little hard to know what you have or have not read. I was just pointing out recent info.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It is a little hard to know what you have or have not read. I was just pointing out recent info.



I'm just happy to finally know that he can actually read.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> <edit> you showed before pics. why no after? let's see your handy work



Always gotta be someone here from Missouri.  

The '58 below.  The '52 is currently in the Lyr 3 playing this, and it ain't coming out.  For this kind of music, the Foton kicks the Frankie out of the socket...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> After 100 hours the tube just has less life on it.



True, of course. But out of interest, I re-tested the first Frankie I started with (the Lansdale labeled 7N7) a few weeks ago. That tube has probably in excess of 1k hours on it, some of that just at idle but the majority of it playing music. It measures identically to where it started. Now there is always some variation in test readings with a Hickok from day to day, but that variation is pretty small so any actual drop in transconductance masked by that would be pretty small too. I have a '54 Foton with a lot of hours on it....I'll run that through the tester and see how it reads. Original factory solder in that one though...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Also - The research has not been independently verified or submitted and validated via peer review.



I have no peers.  Only superiors and inferiors.  I'm in the middle.


----------



## attmci (Sep 15, 2019)

triggsviola said:


> This is kind of joke. It doesn’t actually work. I ordered two Mullard EL38s for my Euforia but, through a computer error, only one came, so I decided to put it in my Vali. 6922 socket saver -> 6SN7 adapter -> EL38 adapter -> EL38 tube. Lots of noise and only one channel works. This tube is not meant to be a driver tube. It’s meant to be a power tube as part of pair. I don’t think I damaged my amp because it works fine after putting my 6SN7 back. Maybe I destroyed the tube. I won’t know for another month when the other Mullard comes in. It’s a good 8 inches tall.


No worries, you are a true tube roller from that famous thread. Have you heard of Christmas tree tube?

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread.782754/page-871


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> 3 words...
> 
> Tube Death Rally.
> 
> ...


How you liking the pre burned in pair of WE JW 396A's?


----------



## bcowen

*Ebay Seller Alert*

Just received these.  Advertised as "Unused / Tested."  On the Hickok 752A, minimum good for a 6DJ8 (which is the equivalent of a 6N23) is 775.  Two tubes had such high interelement leakage (200k)  I didn't even do a GM test on them for fear of damaging my tester.  Two tubes had both triodes that registered below 200.  Of the other 4, there was only ONE triode on ONE tube that measured above 775 -- all the rest were well below minimum.  Unused?  Unlikely. Tested?  With what?  A multimeter?  I did re-test a couple other 6DJ8's just to be sure my tester hadn't gone whacko, and those tested exactly as they had before...so it's not a tester issue.

I've asked for my money back with no response. I'll wait the 7 days required by Ebay and then file a claim if still no response, but my advice is to steer very clear of this seller. Not a lot of money involved (only $30 with shipping), but if he's misrepresenting these as badly as he did it's probable he's doing it with whatever else he's selling.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N23P-X8-V...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> *Ebay Seller Alert*
> 
> Just received these.  Advertised as "Unused / Tested."  On the Hickok 752A, minimum good for a 6DJ8 (which is the equivalent of a 6N23) is 775.  Two tubes had such high interelement leakage (200k)  I didn't even do a GM test on them for fear of damaging my tester.  Two tubes had both triodes that registered below 200.  Of the other 4, there was only ONE triode on ONE tube that measured above 775 -- all the rest were well below minimum.  Unused?  Unlikely. Tested?  With what?  A multimeter?  I did re-test a couple other 6DJ8's just to be sure my tester hadn't gone whacko, and those tested exactly as they had before...so it's not a tester issue.
> 
> ...


Lol, think I warned you against buying 6N23P`s. If you want Russian 9 pins stick to the 6N3P. Every single pair tested close to 5,000 Gm and many much higher than that. 50`s Reflektor or Foton are the best.; 60`s are quite good as well.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Lol, think I warned you against buying 6N23P`s. If you want Russian 9 pins stick to the 6N3P. Every single pair tested close to 5,000 Gm and many much higher than that. 50`s Reflektor or Foton are the best.; 60`s are quite good as well.



Yes, you did warn me about the 6N23P's.....*after* I bought those.  

I'll go look for some 6N3P's now....

I also just received an email from a Ukraine seller I've bought from before (with good results).  He has 8 ribbed plate '52 - '55 Foton 6N8S's that he can get from a friend, and says they will be fully tested before shipping. I spoke for 4 of them. If anybody else is interested in the other 4, I'll be happy to send his contact info....PM me if interested.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Lol, think I warned you against buying 6N23P`s. If you want Russian 9 pins stick to the 6N3P. Every single pair tested close to 5,000 Gm and many much higher than that. 50`s Reflektor or Foton are the best.; 60`s are quite good as well.



So what do you think about these? Triple mica, but '80's production...


----------



## TK16

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-6N3P-39...rentrq:5988064516d0a4d061d116c8ff8536ee|iid:1
Ebay says I bought from him before, don't remember having a bad experience. 


https://www.ebay.com/itm/45x-Vintag...rentrq:5988064516d0a4d061d116c8ff8536ee|iid:1


----------



## Keno18

Update on my sonic nirvana: Switched from Tidal to Amazon Music. Amazon now streams in actual hi-res. Compared the two, Amazon won out. Better SQ and app UI. Still using the 12ax7 EH. Keeps the post on topic.


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> Update on my sonic nirvana: Switched from Tidal to Amazon Music. Amazon now streams in actual hi-res. Compared the two, Amazon won out. Better SQ and app UI. Still using the 12ax7 EH. Keeps the post on topic.



Decided to give Amazon a try. Desktop player downloads and installs just fine.  Try to open it....just nothing.  Reboot.  Nothing.  Uninstall/reinstall/reboot.  Nothing.  Grrrrr.  Uninstalled permanently and back to Tidal.  Unless it is a monumental (and I mean MONUMENTAL ) improvement in sound quality, I'll keep on spending $7 more a month for Tidal which always works without issue. Amazon will have to find someone else to be a debugger for them...not my calling in life.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 22, 2019)

Very odd, I have it running on 6 devices no problem.

On a couple devices I already had Amazon music and Amazon HD started running automatically lol

I use Windows 10 and Apple both


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Very odd, I have it running on 6 devices no problem.
> 
> On a couple devices I already had Amazon music and Amazon HD started running automatically lol
> 
> I use Windows 10 and Apple both



I'm just trying to get it to run on my Win 10 laptop.  No go.  I've spent over an hour trying every trick I know, which exceeded my patience level with buggy software by about 59 minutes.  Be interested to see if there's any inquiry by Amazon since I cancelled my subscription 2 hours after starting it.


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> Decided to give Amazon a try. Desktop player downloads and installs just fine.  Try to open it....just nothing.  Reboot.  Nothing.  Uninstall/reinstall/reboot.  Nothing.  Grrrrr.  Uninstalled permanently and back to Tidal.  Unless it is a monumental (and I mean MONUMENTAL ) improvement in sound quality, I'll keep on spending $7 more a month for Tidal which always works without issue. Amazon will have to find someone else to be a debugger for them...not my calling in life.


Didn't play through the desktop speakers? What are your speakers set to?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> Didn't play through the desktop speakers? What are your speakers set to?



Intended to play it through the Lyr 3 and my headphones. The program doesn't open up at all.  Double-click the desktop icon, and nothing.  Go into the program directory and click directly on the .exe file, and nothing.  Doesn't even show up in Task Manager. Tried opening with "Run as Administrator," tried running in compatibility mode...nothing.  Like I'm trying to open a desktop shortcut that leads nowhere, except I don't even get a message that the program couldn't be found. It installs with no error messages and puts up a desktop icon, but that's the end of it.

Edit:  Put this on to get rid of my frustration, but it just made me sad.  I loved Ocasek.   Soiunds awesome with Mr. '52 Foton though.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Intended to play it through the Lyr 3 and my headphones. The program doesn't open up at all.  Double-click the desktop icon, and nothing.  Go into the program directory and click directly on the .exe file, and nothing.  Doesn't even show up in Task Manager. Tried opening with "Run as Administrator," tried running in compatibility mode...nothing.  Like I'm trying to open a desktop shortcut that leads nowhere, except I don't even get a message that the program couldn't be found. It installs with no error messages and puts up a desktop icon, but that's the end of it.
> 
> Edit:  Put this on to get rid of my frustration, but it just made me sad.  I loved Ocasek.   Soiunds awesome with Mr. '52 Foton though.


@bcowen do 1958 Foton’s even have ribbed plates? Those are some of the versions you are liking now with new solder correct?


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> Intended to play it through the Lyr 3 and my headphones. The program doesn't open up at all.  Double-click the desktop icon, and nothing.  Go into the program directory and click directly on the .exe file, and nothing.  Doesn't even show up in Task Manager. Tried opening with "Run as Administrator," tried running in compatibility mode...nothing.  Like I'm trying to open a desktop shortcut that leads nowhere, except I don't even get a message that the program couldn't be found. It installs with no error messages and puts up a desktop icon, but that's the end of it.
> 
> Edit:  Put this on to get rid of my frustration, but it just made me sad.  I loved Ocasek.   Soiunds awesome with Mr. '52 Foton though.


Capt Obvious here, but I think it's time to have the machine looked at. I was able to install it on two different machines. Do you have a 2nd pc to just try to bring it up? If you're not too fed up.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> @bcowen do 1958 Foton’s even have ribbed plates? Those are some of the versions you are liking now with new solder correct?



Nope and nope.   None of the '57's, '58's, and '59's in my stash have ribbed plates.  All the '51's through '55's do.  I think the '56's have ribbed plates, or at least some do (that may have been the transition year), but I don't have any of that year to verify.  I've been enjoying the (resoldered) '52 so much that it's been difficult to pull it out for a long-term comparison with the '58.  Quick initial observation was that the (resoldered) '58 was very close and maybe just as good as the '52, but I haven't given the '58 a longer term trial just yet.


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> Capt Obvious here, but I think it's time to have the machine looked at. I was able to install it on two different machines. Do you have a 2nd pc to just try to bring it up? If you're not too fed up.



I have a desktop buried somewhere behind the soldering iron, tube bases, and piles of capacitors. Perhaps I can find it back there if I grab a shovel and go to work. Maybe a backhoe would be even faster.   My laptop is a bit long in the tooth (i3 processor), but I put 16 gigs of RAM and a solid state drive in it when I first got it so it's still speedy enough for what I use it for. And it works perfectly with Tidal and iTunes.  I shot Amazon a help inquiry...I can't be the only one with this problem. Hopefully they'll respond with a solution. I also just thought about Windows Defender. It may be blocking access unless I add specific permissions for the Amazon program folder. I'll give that a try as well.


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> I have a desktop buried somewhere behind the soldering iron, tube bases, and piles of capacitors. Perhaps I can find it back there if I grab a shovel and go to work. Maybe a backhoe would be even faster.   My laptop is a bit long in the tooth (i3 processor), but I put 16 gigs of RAM and a solid state drive in it when I first got it so it's still speedy enough for what I use it for. And it works perfectly with Tidal and iTunes.  I shot Amazon a help inquiry...I can't be the only one with this problem. Hopefully they'll respond with a solution. I also just thought about Windows Defender. It may be blocking access unless I add specific permissions for the Amazon program folder. I'll give that a try as well.


I'd be interested in hearing what Amazon has to say. I do notice it's got a slow start up time on my 5 or 6 year old notebook.


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> I'd be interested in hearing what Amazon has to say. I do notice it's got a slow start up time on my 5 or 6 year old notebook.



5 or 6 years old?  Geeez.  I said my laptop was long in the tooth, not a Commodore 64.   LOL!!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 23, 2019)

Amazon probably did a quick check of your Tidal playlists and said -"Oh hell no!".


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Amazon probably did a quick check of your Tidal playlists and said -"Oh hell no!".



ROFL!!  And for good reason too.  

But I'm surprised you're even looking at a streaming service.  I thought you already had the full catalog of Justin Bieber and The Partridge Family on CD?  You must be missing some Spice Girls recordings?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> 5 or 6 years old?  Geeez.  I said my laptop was long in the tooth, not a Commodore 64.   LOL!!



Superman had his kryptonite, apparently with Bill it is the Amazon HD audio app.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Superman had his kryptonite, apparently with Bill it is the Amazon HD audio app.



Kryptonite has never bothered me at all.  Not sure where that rumor came from...


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> 5 or 6 years old?  Geeez.  I said my laptop was long in the tooth, not a Commodore 64.   LOL!!


They don't make 'em like that anymore!


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> They don't make 'em like that anymore!



Is the screen in color?


----------



## G0rt

You guys totally crack me up.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Is the screen in color?



Laptops are soooo YESTERDAY.  Tablets are where it's at!!!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Keno18 said:


> Update on my sonic nirvana: Switched from Tidal to Amazon Music. Amazon now streams in actual hi-res. Compared the two, Amazon won out. Better SQ and app UI. Still using the 12ax7 EH. Keeps the post on topic.


I still use the T1>Vali2 setup. As well, I am looking at streaming, have been using Tidal via its own app. Now, Tidal and Qobuz on roon and Audirvana+, and Amazon for streaming and foobar2000 and Jriver for my files. Completely bewildered with choice. I am leaning towards Amazon HD on its native app, too, and foobar2000 for my files. roon sounds gorgeous but it is a ripoff; Qobuz maybe is better than Tidal, however, I think Amazon is going to further improve and win because it has both numbers in audience and financial means. Once someone writes an extension to stream Amazon HD on foobar2000 I hope to arrive where I want to be. Unless, of course, someone can explain to me why roon or audirvana+ or jriver are worth my money.


----------



## Keno18

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I still use the T1>Vali2 setup. As well, I am looking at streaming, have been using Tidal via its own app. Now, Tidal and Qobuz on roon and Audirvana+, and Amazon for streaming and foobar2000 and Jriver for my files. Completely bewildered with choice. I am leaning towards Amazon HD on its native app, too, and foobar2000 for my files. roon sounds gorgeous but it is a ripoff; Qobuz maybe is better than Tidal, however, I think Amazon is going to further improve and win because it has both numbers in audience and financial means. Once someone writes an extension to stream Amazon HD on foobar2000 I hope to arrive where I want to be. Unless, of course, someone can explain to me why roon or audirvana+ or jriver are worth my money.


I've read that Qobuz has better sound quality than Tidal, but the hi-res is more costly. My only complaint about Amazon is that the stream has momentary dropouts here and there, but I'm going to stick with it for a while to see if it improves. I've been able to stream the Amazon app through Foobar to use the DSD Transcoder. It's a bit of a jury rig but it works. I don't see the need to dish out money for the other apps as the sound quality with what's free seems to be more than sufficient.


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> Is the screen in color?


Yeah, but the hand-cranked generator is a bit of a drawback.


----------



## Paladin79

I like the the way Amazon works easily with all the devices I have tried. If I want the very top sound quality I can go to other media but for me the SQ is comparable to Tidal for less money.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Keno18 said:


> I've read that Qobuz has better sound quality than Tidal, but the hi-res is more costly. My only complaint about Amazon is that the stream has momentary dropouts here and there, but I'm going to stick with it for a while to see if it improves. I've been able to stream the Amazon app through Foobar to use the DSD Transcoder. It's a bit of a jury rig but it works. I don't see the need to dish out money for the other apps as the sound quality with what's free seems to be more than sufficient.


Would you mind sharing how you stream Amazon through foobar? Or, where can I read about it?


----------



## Keno18

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Would you mind sharing how you stream Amazon through foobar? Or, where can I read about it?


I don't mind, but I have to write it up first. It's a little more involved than Tidal. I'll PM you. It's not on the Web.


----------



## Ripper2860

If you don't mind -- add me to the list and PM me too, please.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Keno18 said:


> I don't mind, but I have to write it up first. It's a little more involved than Tidal. I'll PM you. It's not on the Web.


Thank you. So kind. Highly appreciated.


----------



## wabe

Keno18 said:


> I don't mind, but I have to write it up first. It's a little more involved than Tidal. I'll PM you. It's not on the Web.


Add me to the list, please.  It would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Keno18

@Ripper2860, @wabe I've added both of you to the original PM. Please keep it to yourselves until I'm sure the instructions are working properly for eveyone.


----------



## Keno18

I went back to Tidal. The intermittent drop outs were annoying and I found the detail and imaging were better to my ears regardless of sampling rate. Qobuz? I want to hear what Old Deaf Donkey has to say.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Keno18 said:


> I went back to Tidal. The intermittent drop outs were annoying and I found the detail and imaging were better to my ears regardless of sampling rate. Qobuz? I want to hear what Old Deaf Donkey has to say.


My aune T1 Mk3 dac supports 24 bit/96kHz according to specs; I am still bewildered and listening for the same tracks on: Amazon unlimited HD both native player and foobar2000 ; and Qobuz on native player, roon, and Audirvana+ 3.5. Everything works well. As to sound quality, completely bewildering: there seem to be subtle differences, but maybe I am imagining. Qobuz seems to sound slightly better than other sources; it seems that there is something slightly more musical playing through roon. However, change the track, and the differences seem to change, too. I simply do not know how to go about it. The monthly costs of services do not matter that much to me. I like Qobuz native app, it is the best. Amazon native app downsamples 24bit/96kHz tracks to 16/44.1 on my PC and offers little control over this, so on its own it is not an option at all; however, playing Amazon through foobar seems to give up to 24/192 (despite the DAC specs?). Tidal app is too limited. So unless I discover something else I plan to switch from Tidal to Amazon, and if smth fails - to Qobuz when my trial ends.


----------



## Keno18

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> My aune T1 Mk3 dac supports 24 bit/96kHz according to specs; I am still bewildered and listening for the same tracks on: Amazon unlimited HD both native player and foobar2000 ; and Qobuz on native player, roon, and Audirvana+ 3.5. Everything works well. As to sound quality, completely bewildering: there seem to be subtle differences, but maybe I am imagining. Qobuz seems to sound slightly better than other sources; it seems that there is something slightly more musical playing through roon. However, change the track, and the differences seem to change, too. I simply do not know how to go about it. The monthly costs of services do not matter that much to me. I like Qobuz native app, it is the best. Amazon native app downsamples 24bit/96kHz tracks to 16/44.1 on my PC and offers little control over this, so on its own it is not an option at all; however, playing Amazon through foobar seems to give up to 24/192 (despite the DAC specs?). Tidal app is too limited. So unless I discover something else I plan to switch from Tidal to Amazon, and if smth fails - to Qobuz when my trial ends.


I agree that the Tidal app is not as good as Qobuz or Amazon. But I like the sound. I just tried Qobuz at the CD level and found the SQ to be less detailed than Tidal. The higher levels are more than I want to spend. I'll give Amazon another shot at a later date. Interesting how Foobar works with the higher sampling rate. I'll have to set up a test rig to try that out.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Keno18 said:


> Interesting how Foobar works with the higher sampling rate. I'll have to set up a test rig to try that out.


But of course Amazon app shows the virtual cable setting as "device capability", not the real rate it is transmitting to DAC. I only assume DAC plays it as in track encoding to its maximum specs.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 24, 2019)

My Topping D50 DAC has a OLED display that shows the incoming data stream sample and bit rate.  I can confirm that the VCable / Foobar stream is being sent to the DAC at 192/24 via Amazon.


----------



## Keno18

Ripper2860 said:


> My Topping D50 DAC has a OLED display that shows the incoming data stream sample and bit rate.  I can confirm that it is being sent to the DAC at 192/24.


That makes sense because the whole chain is set to 192 k. That's done so that you don't have to reset foobar's recorder plugin every time the sampling rate changes with a different track. If a track is recorded at 44.1 k it gets up sampled to 192 k. A 96 k track also gets up sampled to 192 k. If that's not done you'd have to reset the chain every time the rate changes.


----------



## Ripper2860

Got it.  I was letting ODD know that was happening since the Modi MB does not have any indicator for incoming stream sample/bitrate.

Thanks, again!!


----------



## Keno18

Ripper2860 said:


> Got it.  I was letting ODD know that was happening since the Modi MB does not have any indicator for incoming stream sample/bitrate.
> 
> Thanks, again!!


That's one of the changes I made to the Tidal version. You had to change the rate every time the track changed to MQA.


----------



## Keno18

Keno18 said:


> I agree that the Tidal app is not as good as Qobuz or Amazon. But I like the sound. I just tried Qobuz at the CD level and found the SQ to be less detailed than Tidal. The higher levels are more than I want to spend. I'll give Amazon another shot at a later date. Interesting how Foobar works with the higher sampling rate. I'll have to set up a test rig to try that out.


I'm afraid I was too hasty in dismissing Qobuz. I gave it a second listening with other tracks. Even on the CD level it edges out Tidal. Plus the app *is* better, much better. So I switched services yet again to Qobuz.


----------



## Keno18

As far as Amazon Music, it appears the dropout problem I'm having is on my end. I substituted a different DAC in the chain and no dropouts! Sound quality improved at all sample rates up to 192 k too. The only annoying thing is it's a $29.95 DAC. It's got an ESS 9023 chip to boot. Now I've to see if I can fix my ifi nano bl setup.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Keno18 said:


> As far as Amazon Music, it appears the dropout problem I'm having is on my end. I substituted a different DAC in the chain and no dropouts! Sound quality improved at all sample rates up to 192 k too. The only annoying thing is it's a $29.95 DAC. It's got an ESS 9023 chip to boot. Now I've to see if I can fix my ifi nano bl setup.


I have fixed everything in my PC setup and now Amazon app works without quirks. However, it cannot demand exclusive bit-perfect transfer through Windows. I do not know if it is why the sound is somewhat tinny/less lush than Qobuz, especially Qobuz through roon...


----------



## Keno18

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I have fixed everything in my PC setup and now Amazon app works without quirks. However, it cannot demand exclusive bit-perfect transfer through Windows. I do not know if it is why the sound is somewhat tinny/less lush than Qobuz, especially Qobuz through roon...


win the Sound Panel under Recording and Playback advanced properties were you able to check the exclusive mode and priority boxes?


----------



## Ripper2860

The  Amazon application does not support Exclusive mode via WASAPI.  That's one of my gripes, along with the UI (I prefer Qobuz and Tidal's UI and recommendation engine).  The pluses outweigh the negatives for now.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Sep 27, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> win the Sound Panel under Recording and Playback advanced properties were you able to check the exclusive mode and priority boxes?


yes I was able to do so. does not help as the Anazon app does not request exclusive mode. sending it to foobar does not help as it passes WIndows mixer on the way to foobar.


----------



## Keno18

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> yes I was able to do so. does not help as the Anazon app does not request exclusive mode. sending it to foobar does not help as it passes WIndows mixer on the way to foobar.


Yes, a consequence of using their speaker output. I just thought it might help. I sent Amazon a message concerning that but I think it will take a few complaints before they move on it.


----------



## Mr Trev

Man, you guys are stream rolling now?

I got a couple ecc40s in house if anybody still cares about tube stuff


----------



## Ripper2860

Tube Rolling.  Stream Rolling.  Ulitmately leading to ...


----------



## Keno18

Found and fixed the dropout problem with Amazon music streaming. It was the usb Wi-Fi adapter. Removed it, have a slower connection now but Amazon works perfectly. Will post Amazon through Foobar instructions for anyone who is interested later today.


----------



## Keno18 (Oct 2, 2019)

The following instructions are for streaming Amazon Music, Qobuz, or Tidal through Foobar2000.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These instructions are for Widows 10 and streaming mode in the Amazon Music app.

Download the Foobar recording component from here: https://foobar.hyv.fi/?view=foo_record
Download the HiFi virtual cable package ("HiFi Cable bit perfect") from here: https://www.vb-audio.com/Cable/

Install both. Restart PC.

Note: On some sysytems "Speakers (VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable)"
may show instead as "Hi-Fi Cable Input (VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable)".
If that is the case, treat "Hi-Fi Cable Input (VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable)"
as "Speakers (VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable)" in the instructions.

In the taskbar, on the extreme left, right-click the Windows logo. Click "Device Manager".
At the top of the Device Manager window, click the arrow next to "Audio inputs and outputs".
You should see "Hi-Fi Cable Output (VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable)" and "Speakers (VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable)"
in the list. If you do, proceed, if not, check your install.

In the system tray on the extreme right left-click the speaker icon, select "Speakers (VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable)".
Right-click the speaker icon in the system tray, select "Open sound settings".
In the Sound panel click "Sound Control Panel". In the Sound window click the "Playback" tab.
In the Sound window click "Speakers, VB-Audio Hi-Fi- Cable". Click "Properties". In the
"Hi-Fi Cable Properties" box click the "Advanced" tab. Under "Default Format" select
"24 bit, 192000 Hz (Studio Quality)". Click "OK". Next, in the Sound window click the "Recording" tab.
In the Sound window click "Hi-Fi Cable Output". Click "Properties". In the
"Hi-Fi Cable Properties" box click the "Advanced" tab. Under "Default Format" select
"2 channel, 24 bit, 192000 Hz (Studio Quality)". Click "OK". In the "Sound window click "OK".
Close the Sound panel.

In Foobar, from the menu left-click "File", click "Preferences", under "Tools" click "Recorder". In the "Device"
dropdown box select "HiFI Cable Output (VB-Audio Hi". Set "Sample rate" to 192000, "Bits/sample" to 24, and
"Channels" to stereo. Next, preferably with an empty playlist, from the menu select "File", "Add location...".
In the "Add location" window type: "record://" (no quotes), press OK. This will add:
"Recording: 192000 Hz 24 bps 2 ch (Hi-Fi Cable Output (VB-Audio Hi)" to the empty playlist.
Leave the rest of your Foobar settings as you normally would to play a file.

To play, press the forward button on Foobar first, then select and play a track in Amazon Music.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These instructions are for Widows 10 and Hi-Fi or Hi-Res streaming mode in Qobuz.

Download the Foobar recording component from here: https://foobar.hyv.fi/?view=foo_record
Download the HiFi virtual cable package ("HiFi Cable bit perfect") from here: https://www.vb-audio.com/Cable/

Install both. Restart PC.

In the taskbar,  on the extreme left, right-click the Windows logo. Click "Device Manager".
At the top of the Device Manager window, click the arrow next to "Audio inputs and outputs".
You should see "Hi-Fi Cable Output (VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable)" and either
"Speakers (VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable)" or "Hi-Fi Cable Input (VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable)", not both,
in the list. If you do, proceed, if not, check your install.

For the following select the quality that matches the plan you are subscribed to and your DAC.

1. 16 bit, 44.1 k, CD Quality (Hi-Fi)

In the system tray on the extreme right, right-click the speaker icon in the system tray,
select "Open sound settings". In the Sound panel click "Sound Control Panel".
In the Sound window click the "Playback" tab. Next click "Speakers - VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable"
or "Hi-Fi Cable Input - VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable". Click "Properties". In the "Speakers Properties"
or "Hi-Fi Cable Properties" box click the "Advanced" tab. Under "Default Format" select
"16 bit, 44100 Hz (CD Quality)". Click "OK". In the Sound window click the "Recording" tab.
In the Recording window click "Hi-Fi Cable Output - VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable". Click "Properties".
In the "Hi-Fi Cable Properties" box click the "Advanced" tab.
Under "Default Format" select "2 Channel, 16 bit, 44100 Hz (CD Quality)". Click "OK".
In the "Sound window click "OK". Close the Sound panel.

In Foobar Click "Preferences", under "Tools" click "Recorder". In the "Device"
dropdown box select "HiFI Cable Output (VB-Audio Hi". Set "Sample rate" to 44100, "Bits/sample" to 16, and
"Channels" to stereo. Next, preferably with an empty playlist, from the menu select "File", "Add location...".
In the "Add location" window type: "record://" (no quotes), press OK. This will add:
"Recording: 44100 Hz 16 bps 2 ch (Hi-Fi Cable Output (VB-Audio Hi)" to the empty playlist.
Leave the rest of your Foobar settings as you normally would to play a file.

See "In Qobuz" below.

2. 24 bit, 96 k (or 192 k), Hi-Res (Studio) and (Sublime+)

In the system tray on the extreme right, right-click the speaker icon in the system tray,
select "Open sound settings". In the Sound panel click "Sound Control Panel".
In the Sound window click the "Playback" tab. Next click "Speakers - VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable"
or "Hi-Fi Cable Input - VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable". Click "Properties". In the "Speakers Properties"
or "Hi-Fi Cable Properties" box click the "Advanced" tab. Under "Default Format" select
"24 bit, 96000 Hz (or 192000 Hz) (Studio Quality)". Click "OK". In the Sound window click the "Recording" tab.
In the Recording window click "Hi-Fi Cable Output - VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable". Click "Properties".
In the "Hi-Fi Cable Properties" box click the "Advanced" tab.
Under "Default Format" select "2 Channel, 24 bit, 96000 Hz (or 192000 Hz) (Studio Quality)". Click "OK".
In the "Sound window click "OK". Close the Sound panel.

In Foobar Click "Preferences", under "Tools" click "Recorder". In the "Device"
dropdown box select "HiFI Cable Output (VB-Audio Hi". Set "Sample rate" to 96000 (or 192000), "Bits/sample" to 24, and
"Channels" to stereo. Next, preferably with an empty playlist, from the menu select "File", "Add location...".
In the "Add location" window type: "record://" (no quotes), press OK. This will add:
"Recording: 96000 Hz (or 192000 Hz) 24 bps 2 ch (Hi-Fi Cable Output (VB-Audio Hi)" to the empty playlist.
Leave the rest of your Foobar settings as you normally would to play a file.

In Qobuz, select "Music playing". Under "Listening preferences", "Audio output device" select
"Wasapi (Exclusive mode) - Speakers - VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable" or
"Wasapi (Exclusive mode) - Hi-Fi Cable Input - VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable".

To play, press the forward button on Foobar first, then select and play a track in Qobuz.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These instructions are for Widows 10 and Hi-Fi streaming mode in Tidal.

Download the Foobar recording component from here: https://foobar.hyv.fi/?view=foo_record
Download the HiFi virtual cable package ("HiFi Cable bit perfect") from here: https://www.vb-audio.com/Cable/

Install both. Restart PC.

In the taskbar,  on the extreme left, right-click the Windows logo. Click "Device Manager".
At the top of the Device Manager window, click the arrow next to "Audio inputs and outputs".
You should see "Hi-Fi Cable Output (VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable)" and either
"Speakers (VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable)" or "Hi-Fi Cable Input (VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable)", not both,
in the list. If you do, proceed, if not, check your install.

In the system tray on the extreme right, right-click the speaker icon in the system tray,
select "Open sound settings". In the Sound panel click "Sound Control Panel". In the Sound
window click the "Playback" tab. In the Sound window click either "Speakers - VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable"
or "Hi-Fi Cable Input - VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable". Click "Properties". In the "Speakers Properties" or
"Hi-Fi Cable Properties" box click the "Advanced" tab. Under "Default Format"
select "16 bit, 44100 Hz (CD Quality)". Click "OK". Next, in the Sound window
click the "Recording" tab. In the Sound window click "Hi-Fi Cable Output - VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable".
Click "Properties". In the"Hi-Fi Cable Properties" box click the "Advanced" tab.
Under "Default Format" select "2 channel, 16 bit, 44100 Hz (CD Quality)". Click "OK".
In the "Sound window click "OK". Close the Sound panel.

In Foobar Click "Preferences", under "Tools" click "Recorder". In the "Device"
dropdown box select "HiFI Cable Output (VB-Audio Hi". Set "Sample rate" to 44100, "Bits/sample" to 16, and
"Channels" to stereo. Next, preferably with an empty playlist, from the menu select "File", "Add location...".
In the "Add location" window type: "record://" (no quotes), press OK. This will add:
"Recording: 44100 Hz 16 bps 2 ch (Hi-Fi Cable Output (VB-Audio Hi)" to the empty playlist.
Leave the rest of your Foobar settings as you normally would to play a file.

In Tidal, select "File", "Settings" from the menu. In the Settings window click "Streaming".
Make sure "Quality" is set to "HI-Fi". Under "Sound", Next to "Sound Output" click "(More settings)".
Turn on "Use Exclusive mode" and "Force volume". Exit window.
Under "Sound Output (More Settings)" click the down arrow to the extreme right.
Select "Speakers (VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable)" or "Hi-Fi Cable Input (VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable)" from the drop down box.

To play, press the forward button on Foobar first, then select and play a track in Tidal.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just want to add that I got the idea for this from this thread on AVForums about Tidal:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/streaming-mqa-using-tidal.2076126/


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> The following instructions are for streaming Amazon Music, Qobuz, or Tidal through Foobar2000.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...



Wow!  Thanks for taking the time to put that all together in such great detail.  Really appreciated.  I'm inspired enough now to give it another whirl.


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> Wow!  Thanks for taking the time to put that all together in such great detail.  Really appreciated.  I'm inspired enough now to give it another whirl.


That's what I was hoping for.


----------



## Mr Trev

ECC40 in action


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> That's what I was hoping for.



I'm going for it this weekend.  Wish me luck.  I have beer ready, and have already selected a new laptop to purchase in the event this one experiences a nasty collision with the nearest wall.


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> I'm going for it this weekend.  Wish me luck.  I have beer ready, and have already selected a new laptop to purchase in the event this one experiences a nasty collision with the nearest wall.


Good luck, I  have my fingers crossed!


----------



## Shane D

Hello. Wow, 312 pages...

I know this somewhat lazy, but are there a couple of tubes that are generally viewed as "can't go wrong"?

I have been thinking about getting a Lyr 3, but I am not sure if I am _that_ into hybrid tube amps. I had a Loxjie P20 and was unimpressed.

I am thinking that a used Vali 2 with the right tube might just let me know if I am a tube guy or not.

In his ad he said "Also, I have a selection of tubes that I can offer for sale as well including: Telefunken, Valvo, Tesla and GE tubes."

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Shane D


----------



## Mr Trev

Shane D said:


> Hello. Wow, 312 pages...
> 
> I know this somewhat lazy, but are there a couple of tubes that are generally viewed as "can't go wrong"?
> 
> ...


If your looking into a used Vali, I'd suggest trying to find one that includes a couple of tubes, hopefully the seller will have already done the hard work for you. If extra tubes aren't an option, probably the easiest way to go would be getting a JJ e88cc. It's not going to match a NOS tube for SQ, but it doesn't really do anything wrong to my ears. And from what I've read the JJ are much better than Electro-Harmonix or any of the other new tubes.

Assuming the ad you mention is for the used Vali, I'd consider the Telefunken, but can't comment on the other brands. (BTW, don't mention GE tubes to @bcowen - we worry about his blood pressure)


----------



## Shane D

Mr Trev said:


> If your looking into a used Vali, I'd suggest trying to find one that includes a couple of tubes, hopefully the seller will have already done the hard work for you. If extra tubes aren't an option, probably the easiest way to go would be getting a JJ e88cc. It's not going to match a NOS tube for SQ, but it doesn't really do anything wrong to my ears. And from what I've read the JJ are much better than Electro-Harmonix or any of the other new tubes.
> 
> Assuming the ad you mention is for the used Vali, I'd consider the Telefunken, but can't comment on the other brands. (BTW, don't mention GE tubes to @bcowen - we worry about his blood pressure)



His ad states that it only comes with the original tube, but other are available as options. I don't want to spend much money above the purchase price because I only see two outcomes:

1) I don't like it/get it and I move on like I did with the Loxjie P20. Don't want to lose too much money when I sell it on.
2) I LOVE it and I immediately want to sell it and buy the Lyr3. Don't want to lose too much money when I sell it on.

The little fella has no chance with me.

I was thinking about contacting him and making an offer that includes the amp, one pretty good tube and shipping. But I am SO ignorant about tubes. When he mentions a brand I am sure there are dozens to hundreds within that brand containing lots of good and lots of bad.

Shane D


----------



## Ripper2860

I've never heard of anyone calling a TF tube bad.  Sure there are some TFs that are better than others, but as a whole, they are pretty good tubes no matter the type.  That would be a safe bet and a truer test of if you might like it, than the stock tube.  The new JJ's also seem to be getting good marks from buyers.


----------



## Shane D

Ripper2860 said:


> I've never heard of anyone calling a TF tube bad.  Sure there are some TFs that are better than others, but as a whole, they are pretty good tubes no matter the type.  That would be a safe bet and a truer test of if you might like it, than the stock tube.  The new JJ's also seem to be getting good marks from buyers.



So Telefunken are just a pretty good tube in general? What are JJ's?

Shane D


----------



## TK16

Shane D said:


> So Telefunken are just a pretty good tube in general? What are JJ's?
> 
> Shane D


I have tried a bunch of different Telefunkens, basically sold them all as they were not really my intended sound sig.
I`ll list the best imo to the least for reference E188CC, E88CC, ECC801s, 6DJ8. Basically you are going to pay more money for better SQ imo. You decide what to buy though in the end. I found all them no warm enough and being too "polite" sounding.


----------



## bcowen

Shane D said:


> His ad states that it only comes with the original tube, but other are available as options. I don't want to spend much money above the purchase price because I only see two outcomes:
> 
> 1) I don't like it/get it and I move on like I did with the Loxjie P20. Don't want to lose too much money when I sell it on.
> 2) I LOVE it and I immediately want to sell it and buy the Lyr3. Don't want to lose too much money when I sell it on.
> ...



I sold my Vali 2 when I got the Lyr 3....and ended up buying another Vali 2 later on.  For the money, just keep it regardless (unless you just hate it, which I think is very low on the risk scale).  

It would be hard to get consensus from this group (or any other, really) on a tube or two that are just "right."  Right for them in their system with their preferences and their 'cans?  Sure.  But too many variables at play to crown an uncontested overall prince.  I do think, however, we could reach some agreement on which tubes are just _wrong_:  *GE* (actually made by GE...there are tubes labeled as GE that were made by others on an OEM basis that can be very good). *Philips ECG's*.  Hard to believe possible, but these are even worse than GE's.  These are not to be confused with '60's and earlier Philips tubes that were made in Europe -- most of those are very fine tubes. The ECG's are distinctly marked with that suffix after the Philips brand name. Don't even know where they were made...probably in someone's basement, or maybe they're just relabeled Sovteks (see next). Finally, '90's and early '00 *Sovteks*.  Russian. Garbage. Terrible. Just don't.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> If your looking into a used Vali, I'd suggest trying to find one that includes a couple of tubes, hopefully the seller will have already done the hard work for you. If extra tubes aren't an option, probably the easiest way to go would be getting a JJ e88cc. It's not going to match a NOS tube for SQ, but it doesn't really do anything wrong to my ears. And from what I've read the JJ are much better than Electro-Harmonix or any of the other new tubes.
> 
> Assuming the ad you mention is for the used Vali, I'd consider the Telefunken, but can't comment on the other brands. (BTW, don't mention GE tubes to @bcowen - we worry about his blood pressure)



Whenever someone types GE anywhere in this forum, I feel it.  Kinda like a disturbance in the force or something.  Hard to explain and nothing I can do about it anyway, but I know.  I just know.


----------



## Mr Trev

Shane D said:


> So Telefunken are just a pretty good tube in general? What are JJ's?
> 
> Shane D



JJ is another brand. Made in Slovakia, IIRC. Supposedly one of the better "new" tube makers. The possible benefit of going for new tubes is you won't have to worry about test values and such (in theory at least)


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Whenever someone types GE anywhere in this forum, I feel it.  Kinda like a disturbance in the force or something.  Hard to explain and nothing I can do about it anyway, but I know.  I just know.


I heard that some women listen to GE tubes at night, so they can have an excuse like a bad headache so the guy does not get "any". Conspiracy theory here, not related to actual facts.


----------



## wabe

Sorry if this has been brought up before.

Is there any way to test tubes without an emission tester or other type of tube tester?  If not, are there any recommendations for a tube tester that would be functional in the $100 range?

I got 4 Fotons off of eBay that I think were dead to begin with, and want to know how to verify before I request a refund.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Oct 9, 2019)

wabe said:


> Sorry if this has been brought up before.
> 
> Is there any way to test tubes without an emission tester or other type of tube tester?  If not, are there any recommendations for a tube tester that would be functional in the $100 range?
> 
> I got 4 Fotons off of eBay that I think were dead to begin with, and want to know how to verify before I request a refund.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/DIGITAL-TUBE-TESTER-LAMPEMETRE-AUTONOME-ULTRA-COMPACT/263946261441

or, if you are happy with testing older tube types,

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TV-11-Superior-Tube-Tester/223696507105 - I use TV=12 from Superiorhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/TV-11-Superior-Tube-Tester/223696507105


----------



## bcowen

wabe said:


> Sorry if this has been brought up before.
> 
> Is there any way to test tubes without an emission tester or other type of tube tester?  If not, are there any recommendations for a tube tester that would be functional in the $100 range?
> 
> I got 4 Fotons off of eBay that I think were dead to begin with, and want to know how to verify before I request a refund.



You can test them for shorts with a DVM, but no way I know of to test for emission or GM without a tube tester.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Keno18 said:


> I don't mind, but I have to write it up first. It's a little more involved than Tidal. I'll PM you. It's not on the Web.


Would you consider posting it on this thread?


----------



## Keno18

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Would you consider posting it on this thread?


Check out post #4663 on page 311.


----------



## wabe

It appears that at least 2 of the tubes I got are functional (I found a shop in town that can test tubes).  My next question is on the adapter.  I got one of these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GARAGE1217...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

to use in the Vali 2.

First question:  is this the correct adapter for a 6SN7/6H8C tube?  If not, which one should I get?

Second question:  if this is the correct adapter, is there any way to determine if the adapter itself is bad with a DVM?


----------



## Keno18

wabe said:


> It appears that at least 2 of the tubes I got are functional (I found a shop in town that can test tubes).  My next question is on the adapter.  I got one of these:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GARAGE1217-12SN7-6SN7-TO-12AU7-6922-TUBE-SOCKET-ADAPTER-TOP-BUILD-QUALITY/254102508696?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> ...


I'm not familiar with the Garage1217 adapter, but you will need an additional 9 pin socket saver to put on the end of the Garage adapter because the adapter is too wide to fit the Vali's tube opening. Easily gotten from tubedepot.com.


----------



## TK16

wabe said:


> It appears that at least 2 of the tubes I got are functional (I found a shop in town that can test tubes).  My next question is on the adapter.  I got one of these:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GARAGE1217-12SN7-6SN7-TO-12AU7-6922-TUBE-SOCKET-ADAPTER-TOP-BUILD-QUALITY/254102508696?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> ...


Have not used that adapter but I have the 2C51 garage adapter. Being ceramic it amplifies noise and or microphones compared to the bakelite. Adapter you linked looks to be ceramic.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 16, 2019)

I use a pair of Garage 2C51 adapters with my Valhalla 2 and have absolutely no issues with them being noisy or microphonic.  Maybe it's your amp??  Or maybe it's your imagination.


----------



## Keno18

Found another good sounding cheap tube. The  JJ 12at7. Open, airy, with one of the  best transient dynamic responses I've come across. (The "gunshot" in Fiedler's "Slaughter on 10th Avenue".)


----------



## wabe

@Keno18, I found that out when I started trying to figure out how to make it work.  I got a couple of the tubesaver adapters.

What 6SN7 adapters do you folks recommend, if you haven't used the Garage1217 one?


----------



## bcowen

wabe said:


> It appears that at least 2 of the tubes I got are functional (I found a shop in town that can test tubes).  My next question is on the adapter.  I got one of these:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GARAGE1217-12SN7-6SN7-TO-12AU7-6922-TUBE-SOCKET-ADAPTER-TOP-BUILD-QUALITY/254102508696?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> ...



That adapter will work as long as you specify how you want it wired when you order it. It's configurable for different tubes. Just be sure to spell out you want it configured for a 6922 on the bottom and 6SN7 on the top.


----------



## wabe

bcowen said:


> That adapter will work as long as you specify how you want it wired when you order it. It's configurable for different tubes. Just be sure to spell out you want it configured for a 6922 on the bottom and 6SN7 on the top.


Ah, this might be my issue.  Which configuration should I have requested?  I assume config 2?

Config 1: Pins 4 and 5 on the 9 pin side can be joined for use adapting a 6sn7 to say a 6dj8 socket or a 12sn7 series to a true 12.6v socket such as a 12au7 which does not utilize the center tap
Config 2: Pins 4 or 5 can be linked to pin 9 on the noval side for designs running 6.3v but allowing 12.6v dual triodes to be run per the center tap


----------



## bcowen

wabe said:


> @Keno18, I found that out when I started trying to figure out how to make it work.  I got a couple of the tubesaver adapters.
> 
> What 6SN7 adapters do you folks recommend, if you haven't used the Garage1217 one?



Just had one made for me by @Deyan . Haven't received it yet but from the pictures he sent the workmanship looks to be first rate.  He's in Bulgaria so you'll have to wait a bit on the shipping.  Mine is intended for the Vali 2 with a 7N7 on top rather than a 6SN7, but I believe he can configure an adapter for whatever you want. I like the one piece body on this which eliminates the need for a socket saver or extension (and more connections as a result). PM him if you have any interest.


----------



## bcowen

wabe said:


> Ah, this might be my issue.  Which configuration should I have requested?  I assume config 2?
> 
> Config 1: Pins 4 and 5 on the 9 pin side can be joined for use adapting a 6sn7 to say a 6dj8 socket or a 12sn7 series to a true 12.6v socket such as a 12au7 which does not utilize the center tap
> Config 2: Pins 4 or 5 can be linked to pin 9 on the noval side for designs running 6.3v but allowing 12.6v dual triodes to be run per the center tap



No. Based on that description, you'd want Config 1 to run a 6SN7 / 6N8S / 6H8C in a Vali 2.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Just had one made for me by @Deyan . Haven't received it yet but from the pictures he sent the workmanship looks to be first rate.  He's in Bulgaria so you'll have to wait a bit on the shipping.  Mine is intended for the Vali 2 with a 7N7 on top rather than a 6SN7, but I believe he can configure an adapter for whatever you want. I like the one piece body on this which eliminates the need for a socket saver or extension (and more connections as a result). PM him if you have any interest.



Looks nice. Any mention on how tall is it? I'd like to keep it as low profile as possible - you know, for wind resistance & centre of gravity


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Looks nice. Any mention on how tall is it? I'd like to keep it as low profile as possible - you know, for wind resistance & centre of gravity



No mention of the total height. Be happy to measure it and post the info once I get it.  I need a fairly low profile myself, due more to felines and the space I'm allotted in the living room for my HP stuff.  And it'll get even more restricted when I finish the Schiit rack whose design I blatantly ripped off from  @Paladin79 .  I *did* thank him though.


----------



## bcowen

Don't see many of these around anymore. This is the only tube truly manufactured by GE I've yet heard that actually sounds good.  I'd be surprised if it doesn't go for at least $500, and probably more.  Somebody in one of the other threads here was talking about tube operating temperatures the other day, and it reminded me of checking these with an IR thermometer (not super accurate, but...) and these things ran close to 450 degrees F in the Cary 211 amps.  Toasty...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> No mention of the total height. Be happy to measure it and post the info once I get it.  I need a fairly low profile myself, due more to felines and the space I'm allotted in the living room for my HP stuff.  And it'll get even more restricted when I finish the Schiit rack whose design I blatantly ripped off from  @Paladin79 .  I *did* thank him though.


My patent attorney let me down again so I guess you can use the idea but, I did not fill you in on the new and super cool additions I am making to my mini shelves.


----------



## bcowen (Oct 17, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> My patent attorney let me down again so I guess you can use the idea but, I did not fill you in on the new and super cool additions I am making to my mini shelves.



Let me guess....sorbothane?  

I'm still deliberating on which footers to use: The Huge A$$ ones, the Big A$$ ones, or the Not Quite As Big A$$ ones.  Obviously the Huges and Bigs need some cleanin' like I did to the Not Quite As Bigs already.  Kind of leaning towards the little ones just for clearance...and to make sure I don't break the shelf the rack sits on (the Huge ones weigh about 6 pounds each).  Then I have to figure out which Marigo tuning dots to use...the white or green?  The black ones might be too much...  LOL!


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> No mention of the total height. Be happy to measure it and post the info once I get it.  I need a fairly low profile myself, due more to felines and the space I'm allotted in the living room for my HP stuff.  And it'll get even more restricted when I finish the Schiit rack whose design I blatantly ripped off from  @Paladin79 .  I *did* thank him though.



That'd be great. If I had any clue about what I was doing, I'd try making one myself - that adapter is pretty much identical to the one floating round in my head…

Since that Schiit rack is pretty much open source now, post the design for the rest of us


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 17, 2019)

I'm still deliberating on which footers to use: The Huge A$$ ones, the Big A$$ ones, or the Not Quite As Big A$$ ones. Obviously the Huges and Bigs need some cleanin' like I did to the Not Quite As Bigs already. Kind of leaning towards the little ones just for clearance...and to make sure I don't break the shelf the rack sits on (the Huge ones weigh about 6 pounds each). Then I have to figure out which Marigo dots to use...the white or green? The black ones might be too much... LOL!



Yeah I would go for the small ones, that way if your wife gets fed up with your headphone listening 
while she is trying to talk to you, she will do less damage if she bashes you over the head with one of those. The large one might kill you and the medium size might put out an eye, she may only break your nose with the small one. It could be an improvement, one should always look on the bright side.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> That'd be great. If I had any clue about what I was doing, I'd try making one myself - that adapter is pretty much identical to the one floating round in my head…
> 
> Since that Schiit rack is pretty much open source now, post the design for the rest of us



Tom already did.  Except he didn't get the copper rods Cryo treated, so my rack will easily sound .004% better. Maybe .005%.    I'll post pics of my copycat when I'm done...maybe this weekend depending on spousal unit demands...




[/QUOTE]


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Yeah I would go for the small ones, that way if your wife gets fed up with your headphone listening
> while she is trying to talk to you, she will do less damage if she bashes you over the head with one of those. The large one might kill you and the medium size might put out an eye, she may only break your nose with the small one. It could be an improvement, one should always look on the bright side.



Good point.  Your thoughtfulness is always appreciated.    The medium and small ones have threaded holes, so I can actually tap some threads in the bottom board and screw them in place. Then she'd have to throw the whole rack at me, which would require effort on her part and reduce that risk to near zero.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Tom already did.  Except he didn't get the copper rods Cryo treated, so my rack will easily sound .004% better. Maybe .005%.    I'll post pics of my copycat when I'm done...maybe this weekend depending on spousal unit demands...


[/QUOTE]

That was an early design, my real design will withstand earthquakes and maybe even a cat using it as a springboard. 

I did get parts ordered for the cable management system on my larger rack, I am going to build my own shielded AC cords, it might be overkill but all the cables will be pretty close together.


----------



## bcowen (Oct 17, 2019)

That was an early design, my real design will withstand earthquakes and maybe even a cat using it as a springboard.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, OK, fine, whatever.  Mine will clean tube pins, instantly cure interelement leakage and repair shorts, and make GE's sound like true NOS Bad Boys.  And that's just on the first shelf -- the second shelf has some quantum stuff going on that I'm not at liberty to disclose details on.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 17, 2019)

bcowen said:


> That was an early design, my real design will withstand earthquakes and maybe even a cat using it as a springboard.



Yeah, OK, fine, whatever.  Mine will clean tube pins, instantly cure interelement leakage and repair shorts, and make GE's sound like true NOS Bad Boys.  And that's just on the first shelf -- the second shelf has some quantum stuff going on that I'm not at liberty to disclose details on.  [/QUOTE

I get what you are saying, the boards will kinda/sorta match and it may not fall over in the first hour of operation. Got it!


----------



## attmci (Oct 17, 2019)

Here you go 


 
*bcowen*
:

attmci said: ↑
Is there a 6J5 sounds like a GE 6SN7GT?

Thanks @*L0rdGwyn*

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-6J5-Tube-2800/254332622506?hash=item3b3767d6aa:g:YioAAOSwsB5dVzIg
https://www.ebay.com/itm/General-El...915819?hash=item5d92af3a6b:g:MbAAAOSwTfNcx38l


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I get what you are saying, the boards will kinda/sorta match and it may not fall over in the first hour of operation. Got it!



Fine.  Just rephrase exactly what I said more concisely.  I'm OK with that.  English has never been my best language, even though it's the only one I know.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 18, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Fine.  Just rephrase exactly what I said more concisely.  I'm OK with that.  English has never been my best language, even though it's the only one I know.



We should start an "off topic" thread where we can talk about anything. The use of maple wood vs cherry or walnut or all the possible uses of Sorbothane lol. Nothing can be off topic unless it causes the moderators to come in and start deleting comments. Tubes, cable construction, Schiit products ,whatever could be discussed. Maybe there is such a thing but it could be a fun idea. How about the Nothing is off topic Here thread?  An all inclusive thread where you can start talking music preferences or a perfect listening room without ever being off topic.


----------



## Ripper2860

Hello!!???  There's already one -- https://www.head-fi.org/threads/what-a-long-strange-trip-its-been-robert-hunter.784471/


----------



## Paladin79

No thanks, I will make one


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 18, 2019)

You know that was a joke, right?

Are you thinking a  thread under the DIY section?

https://www.head-fi.org/forums/diy-do-it-yourself-discussions.6/


----------



## Paladin79

I know you were joking. I have not considered which section yet. I can talk about most anything involving audio, as can others do I hate to limit the area to diy.


----------



## Ripper2860

Gotcha...


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> Hello!!???  There's already one -- https://www.head-fi.org/threads/what-a-long-strange-trip-its-been-robert-hunter.784471/


I`m about to start a thread on the empty box Samsung Galaxy Tab S6 if your interested. Lots of revenue on Ebay.


----------



## Paladin79

TK16 said:


> I`m about to start a thread on the empty box Samsung Galaxy Tab S6 if your interested. Lots of revenue on Ebay.


LOL


----------



## Mr Trev

TK16 said:


> I`m about to start a thread on the empty box Samsung Galaxy Tab S6 if your interested. Lots of revenue on Ebay.



That'd be truely epic, but only if it remains an empty thread…


----------



## Keno18 (Oct 18, 2019)

Just did Qobuz through Audirvana through Foobar. Better sound quality and stability with Audirvana than with Qobuz app but not quite as convenient. Specifically when you shut down Qobuz app in the middle of an album, Qobuz will return you precisely to the screen where you left off when restarted. Not so with Audirvana, when restarted it brings you to your Qobuz favorite albums screen. I have to click the play button on the bottom of the screen to load the last track I played then click the album name to the left of play button to return me to the playing album screen. Not difficult, just slightly more involved than the Qobuz app that let's you pick up from the exact place in the track where you left off.


----------



## TK16 (Oct 18, 2019)

Mr Trev said:


> That'd be truely epic, but only if it remains an empty thread…


Was going to keep this quiet, but you seem genuinely interest in boxes.  Personally shooting for a 256gb empty box.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Samsung-Ga...28GB-Wi-Fi-10-5-in-Mountain-Gray/193161574158
Though the last auction went for the$485ish.


----------



## Mr Trev

TK16 said:


> Was going to keep this quiet, but you seem genuinely interest in boxes.  Personally shooting for a 256gb empty box.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Samsung-Ga...28GB-Wi-Fi-10-5-in-Mountain-Gray/193161574158
> Though the last auction went for the$485ish.



Dammit, "Does not ship to Canada". I'm out…


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I know you were joking. I have not considered which section yet. I can talk about most anything involving audio, as can others do I hate to limit the area to diy.



"The Lab" has been pretty much abandoned, you could always claim squatter's rights over there
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-lab.751177/


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Mr Trev said:


> "The Lab" has been pretty much abandoned, you could always claim squatter's rights over there
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-lab.751177/


 
Or revive this...

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/off-topic.817000/


----------



## Keno18

Forget Audirvana, no support. Had a question about favorites sorting, came across a "buyer beware" post warning about the absence of support. Then went to the forums to look for an answer, found many more questions that have gone unanswered. Very few answers. For  $75 you're on your own, literally. Sticking with the Qobuz app.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Was going to keep this quiet, but you seem genuinely interest in boxes.  Personally shooting for a 256gb empty box.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Samsung-Ga...28GB-Wi-Fi-10-5-in-Mountain-Gray/193161574158
> Though the last auction went for the$485ish.



I know this will sound entirely stupid, but here's one with a Buy It Now so no worries about getting outbid at the last minute.  A bit more expensive, and includes the tablet too which seems to be undesirable, but you can always chunk that in the trash when it arrives and have a pristine box leftover:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Samsun...a=0&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 20, 2019)

An obvious scam.  Why would someone throw in a tablet for free?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> An obvious scam.  Why would someone throw in a tablet for free?



Easy.  Business 101:  sell at a loss and make it up in volume.


----------



## wabe

wabe said:


> Ah, this might be my issue.  Which configuration should I have requested?  I assume config 2?
> 
> Config 1: Pins 4 and 5 on the 9 pin side can be joined for use adapting a 6sn7 to say a 6dj8 socket or a 12sn7 series to a true 12.6v socket such as a 12au7 which does not utilize the center tap
> Config 2: Pins 4 or 5 can be linked to pin 9 on the noval side for designs running 6.3v but allowing 12.6v dual triodes to be run per the center tap



In case you folks care, after some back-and-forth with garage1217 on the adapter, the Vali 2 is a bit of an edge case for some reason.  He sent me a revised adapter which is working perfectly.  For future reference, if you go this route, make sure you add notes to your order that you will be using in a Vali 2.

Thanks for the help you folks provided in helping me resolve this.


----------



## bcowen

wabe said:


> In case you folks care, after some back-and-forth with garage1217 on the adapter, the Vali 2 is a bit of an edge case for some reason.  He sent me a revised adapter which is working perfectly.  For future reference, if you go this route, make sure you add notes to your order that you will be using in a Vali 2.
> 
> Thanks for the help you folks provided in helping me resolve this.



Glad you got things worked out!  I've never bought anything from Garage1217, but from postings I've read it seems they build very nice products. Glad to hear their support matches that.


----------



## exdmd

Keno18 said:


> Forget Audirvana, no support. Had a question about favorites sorting, came across a "buyer beware" post warning about the absence of support. Then went to the forums to look for an answer, found many more questions that have gone unanswered. Very few answers. For  $75 you're on your own, literally. Sticking with the Qobuz app.


There was a time when the Qobuz Win 10 app was new and buggy. Playback would stutter or distort requiring a restart. Audirvana+ was always solid with Qobuz until they fixed the problems with the app, it took awhile. I still use Audirvana even though the Qobuz app is fine now, what I am used to. Without Audirvana I would have been limited to Tidal.


----------



## Keno18 (Oct 22, 2019)

exdmd said:


> There was a time when the Qobuz Win 10 app was new and buggy. Playback would stutter or distort requiring a restart. Audirvana+ was always solid with Qobuz until they fixed the problems with the app, it took awhile. I still use Audirvana even though the Qobuz app is fine now, what I am used to. Without Audirvana I would have been limited to Tidal.


Qobuz still has a cache bug. It sometimes corrupts and won't recover. You've got to empty the cache and restart the application. It happens very infrequently so it's not a show stopper. I was alerted to it by their tech support when I had run into it early on.

Edit: Maybe you can answer a question I have about Audirvana, in Qobuz favorites how are the albums sorted? Artist, album name, or what?


----------



## exdmd

Keno18 said:


> Qobuz still has a cache bug. It sometimes corrupts and won't recover. You've got to empty the cache and restart the application. It happens very infrequently so it's not a show stopper. I was alerted to it by their tech support when I had run into it early on.
> 
> Edit: Maybe you can answer a question I have about Audirvana, in Qobuz favorites how are the albums sorted? Artist, album name, or what?


In the Qobuz app you can select *Favourites* and then sort by added date, releases or artists. My Audirvana+ on Win 10 just updated to 3.5.0. I can go into settings and set sorting criteria for local library tracks and albums and streaming user playlists but there is no option to sort Favorite streaming albums. It looks to me like they are just sorted by added date with latest added shown first. I do wish Audirvana would offer the same sorting options as the Qobuz app for streaming.


----------



## Keno18

exdmd said:


> In the Qobuz app you can select *Favourites* and then sort by added date, releases or artists. My Audirvana+ on Win 10 just updated to 3.5.0. I can go into settings and set sorting criteria for local library tracks and albums and streaming user playlists but there is no option to sort Favorite streaming albums. It looks to me like they are just sorted by added date with latest added shown first. I do wish Audirvana would offer the same sorting options as the Qobuz app for streaming.


Thanks, I didn't see a way, just wanted to make sure I hadn't overlooked anything. BTW, in Qobuz I selected "Optimized" in cache size, that seems to minimize the corruption problem.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Looks nice. Any mention on how tall is it? I'd like to keep it as low profile as possible - you know, for wind resistance & centre of gravity



The 6922 -> 7N7 adapter has arrived. _Very_ nice workmanship!!  Huge step up from anything I've received out of China to be sure.  So many thanks to @Deyan !!  Quite pleased with it.

In answer to your question @Mr Trev it measures exactly 2" in height not including the 6922 socket pins: 




 

Here it is in the Vali 2 getting its first taste of a Frankentube without multi-adaptering (which is frowned on by the local audio police ):


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 1, 2019)

bcowen said:


> The 6922 -> 7N7 adapter has arrived. _Very_ nice workmanship!!  Huge step up from anything I've received out of China to be sure.  So many thanks to @Deyan !!  Quite pleased with it.
> 
> In answer to your question @Mr Trev it measures exactly 2" in height not including the 6922 socket pins:
> 
> ...



I need to look for my Vali 2 sometime, been busy with the Mjolnir.

I am in the Freya + thread listening to three guys sing the praises of GE tubes. I am trying so very hard to be cordial and say things like “ they are reasonably priced.”
Bill would have had a seizure by now. 

Nice adapter by the way!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I need to look for my Vali 2 sometime, been busy with the Mjolnir.
> 
> I am in the Freya + thread listening to three guys sing the praises of GE tubes. I am trying so very hard to be cordial and say things like “ they are reasonably priced.”
> Bill would have had a seizure by now



Your restraint is admirable.    Obviously those guys have never heard anything _other_ than a GE, which would logically make it sound good (as the only alternative would be silence).


----------



## bcowen

And finally a finished picture of what everyone has been waiting for (well, _everyone_ being pretty much me):  the blatant rip-off of @Paladin79 's Schitty rack design.  The bottom shelf will be the new home for a Bifrost 2, and with the brass cones in place beneath it there will be about an inch of space between the top of the Bifrost and the bottom of the top shelf.  Found a nice piece of Tiger maple, finished it with tung oil and a couple coats of Renaissance wax, used solid brass rods and the little big a$$ brass feet on the bottom. All that's left is to cryo treat it and then run it on the Cable Cooker for several days before sending it to Tibet for final blessing by the monks. 

And Tom, I'm pretty sure it will withstand the weight of both the Lyr 3 and Bifrost 2 without collapsing, at least for an hour or two.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 1, 2019)

bcowen said:


> And finally a finished picture of what everyone has been waiting for (well, _everyone_ being pretty much me):  the blatant rip-off of @Paladin79 's Schitty rack design.  The bottom shelf will be the new home for a Bifrost 2, and with the brass cones in place beneath it there will be about an inch of space between the top of the Bifrost and the bottom of the top shelf.  Found a nice piece of Tiger maple, finished it with tung oil and a couple coats of Renaissance wax, used solid brass rods and the little big a$$ brass feet on the bottom. All that's left is to cryo treat it and then run it on the Cable Cooker for several days before sending it to Tibet for final blessing by the monks.
> 
> And Tom, I'm pretty sure it will withstand the weight of both the Lyr 3 and Bifrost 2 without collapsing, at least for an hour or two.



Wow!  Most impressive Bill. I have not worked with tiger maple but I will get some for the looks. You need to show that off in Jason’s thread.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> And finally a finished picture of what everyone has been waiting for (well, _everyone_ being pretty much me):  the blatant rip-off of @Paladin79 's Schitty rack design.  The bottom shelf will be the new home for a Bifrost 2, and with the brass cones in place beneath it there will be about an inch of space between the top of the Bifrost and the bottom of the top shelf.  Found a nice piece of Tiger maple, finished it with tung oil and a couple coats of Renaissance wax, used solid brass rods and the little big a$$ brass feet on the bottom. All that's left is to cryo treat it and then run it on the Cable Cooker for several days before sending it to Tibet for final blessing by the monks.
> 
> And Tom, I'm pretty sure it will withstand the weight of both the Lyr 3 and Bifrost 2 without collapsing, at least for an hour or two.



Looks like your reserving space for a Bifrost 2.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Looks like your reserving space for a Bifrost 2.



Why would you think that?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Wow!  Most impressive Bill. I have not worked with tiger maple but I will get some for the looks. You need to show that off in Jason’s thread.



Thanks Tom!  Just trying to fly under the radar to avoid paying royalties.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Thanks Tom!  Just trying to fly under the radar to avoid paying royalties.


I suspect you are in management and give credit where credit is due. The sign of a good man.  Not everyone learns that.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 1, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Why would you think that?



Didn't read just saw the pic.  You really need a TLDR section with a brief synopsis for us folks that value our time and have more  important  things to do than read your incessant ramblings.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> I suspect you are in management and give credit where credit is due. The sign of a good man.  Not everyone learns that.



You know that Bill posted that, right?  Why would you assume any of that?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Didn't read just saw the pic.  You really need a TLDR section with a brief synopsis for us folks that value our time and have more  important  things to do than read your incessant ramblings.



What you really mean is that I need a Ripper-only section with just pictures, right?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You know that Bill posted that, right?  Why would you assume any of that?



Because he's smart?


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> You know that Bill posted that, right?  Why would you assume any of that?


My assumptions are generally pretty accurate, there are certain


Ripper2860 said:


> You know that Bill posted that, right?  Why would you assume any of that?


Lol I tend to pick up on traits, and phrases.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ….and phrases.



ROFL!!


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Because he's smart?



Or maybe just kind to a fault.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> The 6922 -> 7N7 adapter has arrived. _Very_ nice workmanship!!  Huge step up from anything I've received out of China to be sure.  So many thanks to @Deyan !!  Quite pleased with it.
> 
> In answer to your question @Mr Trev it measures exactly 2" in height not including the 6922 socket pins:
> 
> ...



Very nice. Any idea what it's made of?
I'll have to drop the guy a line and see about getting a 6sn7 version - ideally about 1/2" shorter on the bottom half. Basically I'd want the 6sn7 diameter part to be just above the Vali case.

I am liking the PCB based adapters that were sent along with the ECC40s too. They fit in the Vali much better that I expected - no worries about shorting on the casing, and they still stick up just high enough to get enough of a grip on the socket to remove the adapter. I'll probably get ones for my 12au7s and 5670s in the near future.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Very nice. Any idea what it's made of?
> I'll have to drop the guy a line and see about getting a 6sn7 version - ideally about 1/2" shorter on the bottom half. Basically I'd want the 6sn7 diameter part to be just above the Vali case.
> 
> I am liking the PCB based adapters that were sent along with the ECC40s too. They fit in the Vali much better that I expected - no worries about shorting on the casing, and they still stick up just high enough to get enough of a grip on the socket to remove the adapter. I'll probably get ones for my 12au7s and 5670s in the near future.



What the casing is made of?  Not sure.  It's similar in feel to a phenolic resin (like older octal tube bases), but that's about the best description I can offer.  I haven't seen what the empty case looks like, but from the exterior construction it appears that either end could possibly be shortened by sawing it off with the proper tool. Perhaps @Deyan can offer some info to help out here.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> What the casing is made of?  Not sure.  It's similar in feel to a phenolic resin (like older octal tube bases), but that's about the best description I can offer.  I haven't seen what the empty case looks like, but from the exterior construction it appears that either end could possibly be shortened by sawing it off with the proper tool. Perhaps @Deyan can offer some info to help out here.



That's cool. Just wondering if it was plastic, metal, bones of some near extinct animal… I'll definitely explain what I'm looking for when I get in touch.


----------



## wabe

bcowen said:


> What the casing is made of?  Not sure.  It's similar in feel to a phenolic resin (like older octal tube bases), but that's about the best description I can offer.  I haven't seen what the empty case looks like, but from the exterior construction it appears that either end could possibly be shortened by sawing it off with the proper tool. Perhaps @Deyan can offer some info to help out here.



I wonder if they're 3D printed - I hope Deyan shows up to provide some info.  It's really nice work.


----------



## bcowen

wabe said:


> I wonder if they're 3D printed - I hope Deyan shows up to provide some info.  It's really nice work.



Could very well be 3D printed.  Didn't think of that possibility.

Crap...now I'm looking at 3D printers on Amazon.  Thanks heaps.


----------



## Deyan

wabe said:


> I wonder if they're 3D printed - I hope Deyan shows up to provide some info.  It's really nice work.



That particular one is from polycarbonate. It's no 3D printed it's turned down on a lathe. I hop this answers some questions.


----------



## bcowen

Deyan said:


> That particular one is from polycarbonate. It's no 3D printed it's turned down on a lathe. I hop this answers some questions.



That answers all the questions.  So with lathe turning I assume you can alter the length dimensions pretty easily? Or do you just do standard sizes?

Crap...now I'm looking at lathes on Amazon.


----------



## Deyan

You can alter the sizes any way you like. But I do try and keep them more or less the same.


----------



## Deyan

So @bcowen I take it you are happy with the adapter.


----------



## bcowen

Deyan said:


> So @bcowen I take it you are happy with the adapter.



You take it right.  Very pleased with it. First-rate construction quality. Any future adapters I need that I can't (or don't want to) make for myself will come from you, assuming of course you're willing and able to make them.  Thanks for a very nice product at a reasonable price!


----------



## Deyan

bcowen said:


> You take it right.  Very pleased with it. First-rate construction quality. Any future adapters I need that I can't (or don't want to) make for myself will come from you, assuming of course you're willing and able to make them.  Thanks for a very nice product at a reasonable price!



No worries. It's what I do.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 2, 2019)

Deyan said:


> So @bcowen I take it you are happy with the adapter.



I may need to check those out myself since Bill likes them.  Not that I normally listen to his advice mind you, but every now and then he manages to point to product that is half way reasonable.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I may need to check those out myself since Bill likes them.  Not that I normally listen to his advice mind you, but every now and then he manages to point to product that is half way reasonable.



It's that blind squirrel (or is it pig?) and acorn thing.


----------



## Deyan

Paladin79 said:


> I may need to check those out myself since Bill likes them.  Not that I normally listen to his advice mind you, but every now and then he manages to point to product that is half way reasonable.



Well I have a couple of shells for them.....


----------



## Keno18

More fun with foobar. I've put together a software package that synthesizes a 5.1 Surround image from a 2 channel source. This has been done before but in this case I use more professional vst2 plugins rather than ordinary foobar plugins. This has several benefits, most importantly better performance, actual documentation and the ability to run in a real vst2 host. Sound quality is of course different. The imaging is much more precise with instruments "nailed" in space. Width is ear to ear with reflections and ambience literally coming from behind your head. It's natural sounding, not forced or artificial. All aspects of the image are adjustable but I have used just the supplied presets which are more than sufficient to my ears. Of course it works with all headphones. All of the software is free but at this time is hard to find. If there is enough interest I will have to find a hosting site which frankly I haven't done before. Let me know what you think.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> More fun with foobar. I've put together a software package that synthesizes a 5.1 Surround image from a 2 channel source. This has been done before but in this case I use more professional vst2 plugins rather than ordinary foobar plugins. This has several benefits, most importantly better performance, actual documentation and the ability to run in a real vst2 host. Sound quality is of course different. The imaging is much more precise with instruments "nailed" in space. Width is ear to ear with reflections and ambience literally coming from behind your head. It's natural sounding, not forced or artificial. All aspects of the image are adjustable but I have used just the supplied presets which are more than sufficient to my ears. Of course it works with all headphones. All of the software is free but at this time is hard to find. If there is enough interest I will have to find a hosting site which frankly I haven't done before. Let me know what you think.



Heck, I'd give that a try even though I haven't had the best of luck with synth-surround so far.
As far as hosting sites, I just use my Dropbox if I want to share something. If you have a Gmail account then you should already have Gdrive (or somehitng like that) account that should serve the same purpose


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> Heck, I'd give that a try even though I haven't had the best of luck with synth-surround so far.
> As far as hosting sites, I just use my Dropbox if I want to share something. If you have a Gmail account then you should already have Gdrive (or somehitng like that) account that should serve the same purpose


Thanks, I will check that out. The files aren't too big perhaps I can email them to you if you like.


----------



## Ripper2860

Keno18 said:


> More fun with foobar. I've put together a software package that synthesizes a 5.1 Surround image from a 2 channel source. This has been done before but in this case I use more professional vst2 plugins rather than ordinary foobar plugins. This has several benefits, most importantly better performance, actual documentation and the ability to run in a real vst2 host. Sound quality is of course different. The imaging is much more precise with instruments "nailed" in space. Width is ear to ear with reflections and ambience literally coming from behind your head. It's natural sounding, not forced or artificial. All aspects of the image are adjustable but I have used just the supplied presets which are more than sufficient to my ears. Of course it works with all headphones. All of the software is free but at this time is hard to find. If there is enough interest I will have to find a hosting site which frankly I haven't done before. Let me know what you think.



Put me down as interested...


----------



## Keno18

Here's the link to the software:https://www.dropbox.com/s/2w26p5fxcqyfjia/foo_vst_surround.zip?dl=0
Let me know if you can get to it ok. Then I'll explain what to do.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> Here's the link to the software:https://www.dropbox.com/s/2w26p5fxcqyfjia/foo_vst_surround.zip?dl=0
> Let me know if you can get to it ok. Then I'll explain what to do.



Yup. The link worked perfectly. These standard VST plugins? I don't often use Foobar, but Musicbee has support for VST too


----------



## Ripper2860

I got it, as well.  Thx!!!


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> Yup. The link worked perfectly. These standard VST plugins? I don't often use Foobar, but Musicbee has support for VST too


Yes, standard 32 bit VST2 plugins.
Ok, I guess it's for me to post the rest of the information.


----------



## Keno18

Here goes:

For foobar install the foo_vst plugin like any other plugin. This will allow foobar to load and handle vsts just like foobar plugins, but instead of adding them to Components, you add them to VST plug-ins just under Components.
Create a separate directory (like vst plugins) to install the vsts to. "Classic Master Limiter" and "jb_isone_pro+surround" are just zip files that you just unzip and dump the .dll files into the vst plugin directory. "VI_Setup.exe" is
an installer program. Just run it and point the 1st of 3 install locations to the vst plugin directory. The 2nd is for the presets and manual. Just make a note as to where they are. The 3rd is for a specific vst host and may be ignored and
exited. The exit at this point is broken and will require several clicks to kill it. 
Back in foobar go to Preferences: VST plugins. Using the Add button navigate to the vst plugins directory you installed the .dll files in. It doesn't matter at this point what sequence you add them in. Just add "VI.dll", jb_isone_pro_surround.dll
and "Classic Master Limiter.dll". Restart foobar and check that the .dll files you added appear in the vst plugins window. If you are not using foobar follow Musicbee's instructions. 
Again in foobar go to Preferences: DSP Manager Under the "Available DSPs window add the vst dsps in a specific order: "VI", then "JB Isone Pro Surround" and last "Classic Master Limiter". The .dlls must be loaded in that sequence.
"VI" synths the 5.1 channels from 2. "JB Isone Pro Surround" converts the 5.1 signals to position coded stereo. "Classic Master Limiter" limits the output from the 1st two plugins that will produce over level signals. Follow this sequence for Musicbee as well.

The stock settings are a good place to start. Read the accompanying documentation for tips on changing settings.

OK, that's it. Please post any questions, I'll do my best to answer.


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> Here goes:
> 
> For foobar install the foo_vst plugin like any other plugin. This will allow foobar to load and handle vsts just like foobar plugins, but instead of adding them to Components, you add them to VST plug-ins just under Components.
> Create a separate directory (like vst plugins) to install the vsts to. "Classic Master Limiter" and "jb_isone_pro+surround" are just zip files that you just unzip and dump the .dll files into the vst plugin directory. "VI_Setup.exe" is
> ...



Man, thanks so much for all your time and effort working on this and sharing it with us all.  I *still* haven't gotten around to the first steps (damnit) but certainly plan to as soon as time allows. But I wouldn't even have thought of attempting any of this without your guidance and detailed instruction.  Greatly appreciated!


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> Man, thanks so much for all your time and effort working on this and sharing it with us all.  I *still* haven't gotten around to the first steps (damnit) but certainly plan to as soon as time allows. But I wouldn't even have thought of attempting any of this without your guidance and detailed instruction.  Greatly appreciated!


Thanks Bill, take your time. The software is not going anywhere. Frankly I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't fun. Plus I get to contribute to the community.


----------



## Mr Trev

@bcowen: just remember, you gotta be smarter than the computer
BTW, get a chance to listen to the ECC40s yet? Going to get adapters for the Vali2 too, or they just for the Lyr?


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> Here goes:
> 
> For foobar install the foo_vst plugin like any other plugin. This will allow foobar to load and handle vsts just like foobar plugins, but instead of adding them to Components, you add them to VST plug-ins just under Components.
> Create a separate directory (like vst plugins) to install the vsts to. "Classic Master Limiter" and "jb_isone_pro+surround" are just zip files that you just unzip and dump the .dll files into the vst plugin directory. "VI_Setup.exe" is
> ...



Any chance this will work with actual surround files? There's a site I check out (ambientblog.net) that offers up some mixes in DTS wav format. I've never had any luck trying to get them playing in virtual surround


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> Any chance this will work with actual surround files? There's a site I check out (ambientblog.net) that offers up some mixes in DTS wav format. I've never had any luck trying to get them playing in virtual surround


Not sure, all you can do is try. But I'd like to check that site out because there. Is one other foobar plugin called freesurround on the Hydrogen audio site that supposedly decodes a few codecs.


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> Any chance this will work with actual surround files? There's a site I check out (ambientblog.net) that offers up some mixes in DTS wav format. I've never had any luck trying to get them playing in virtual surround


Just checked the site out, no it won't decode them. It's a weird format meant to be burned to cd first. I've tried that before, doesn't decode.


----------



## Keno18 (Nov 11, 2019)

@Mr Trev Got it! Download the foobar DTS plugin (https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_input_dts) install it, VI and Isone_surround will play the wav file directly.

EDIT: You don't need VI, Isone_surround works better without it.


----------



## Keno18

Just made a width correction to the surround image. It was too wide for my taste. So all I had to do was slide the width correction slider in VI to the left about 1\4 the way, saved it to a new preset and fixed!


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> @Mr Trev Got it! Download the foobar DTS plugin (https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_input_dts) install it, VI and Isone_surround will play the wav file directly.
> 
> EDIT: You don't need VI, Isone_surround works better without it.



Tried playing around with it today. Seemed a tad wonky, wouldn't always play all channels. With the stock plugin settings I couldn't tell much of a difference between the DTS wav and the standard 2 channel - as I mentioned before, I just don't think this virtual surround thing works well for me. I've been playing around with HeSuVi for close to a month now and can't really get any really satifactory results with it either.
BTW, for kicks I tried playing a multi-channel SACD layer, only got the rear speakers

I like tubes <now, that's how you keep a post on-topic>


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> Tried playing around with it today. Seemed a tad wonky, wouldn't always play all channels. With the stock plugin settings I couldn't tell much of a difference between the DTS wav and the standard 2 channel - as I mentioned before, I just don't think this virtual surround thing works well for me. I've been playing around with HeSuVi for close to a month now and can't really get any really satifactory results with it either.
> BTW, for kicks I tried playing a multi-channel SACD layer, only got the rear speakers
> 
> I like tubes <now, that's how you keep a post on-topic>


Odd, I've been using it all day (just what I need another genre) all you need for DTS is the DTS plugin and Isone_surround. I hate it when things don't work for people. There is an alternative to try. VLC mediaplayer with ac3filter installed works too. Ac3filter decodes ac3 and DTS. URL:http://www.ac3filter.net/wiki/Projects/ac3filter. All I did was install the two and vlc immediately decoded the DTS wav file. See if that works. It works for tubes too. If it doesn't work it merely means your machine is under some evil spell. Did you break any mirrors lately? If it does work there are things to try with the psuedo-surround.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> @bcowen: just remember, you gotta be smarter than the computer



Probably never gonna happen, but thanks for the tip.  




Mr Trev said:


> BTW, get a chance to listen to the ECC40s yet? Going to get adapters for the Vali2 too, or they just for the Lyr?



Haven't had a chance yet.  Too many new toys and not enough time.  Arrgghh.  I got a pair of Valvo labeled ones that look identical to the Philips French-made Dario/Miniwatt. Both tested near dead, so going after a refund on those. But got in a Tungsram on Saturday that has different internals than the Philips (tests great too).  Not sire if Philips had a hand in these with different construction or if Tungsram actually had their own version?


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Probably never gonna happen, but thanks for the tip.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dammit Bill, what's more important than new tubes. I'm disappointed in you.
From what I've been told… Philips owned Tungsram at one time, and the tubes were made in Hungary, not France.
The Tungsram I have is noticeably shorter than the Philips and does have a quite different sound. More sparkly and lively, but the Philips' more laid back presentation was starting to grow on me (the Philips paired really well with my 58x)


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> Odd, I've been using it all day (just what I need another genre) all you need for DTS is the DTS plugin and Isone_surround. I hate it when things don't work for people. There is an alternative to try. VLC mediaplayer with ac3filter installed works too. Ac3filter decodes ac3 and DTS. URL:http://www.ac3filter.net/wiki/Projects/ac3filter. All I did was install the two and vlc immediately decoded the DTS wav file. See if that works. It works for tubes too. If it doesn't work it merely means your machine is under some evil spell. Did you break any mirrors lately? If it does work there are things to try with the psuedo-surround.



It's not that it doesn't work. I'm pretty sure things are playing as intended (disabling VI seemed to help), it's just that my brain/ears don't want to do "virtual". Or maybe I just need to play around with the settings more.
What are you using to listen (open/closed/iems)? Oddly, trying out HeSuVi with games, I find that iems give me a bigger change in sound than my open phones.


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> It's not that it doesn't work. I'm pretty sure things are playing as intended (disabling VI seemed to help), it's just that my brain/ears don't want to do "virtual". Or maybe I just need to play around with the settings more.
> What are you using to listen (open/closed/iems)? Oddly, trying out HeSuVi with games, I find that iems give me a bigger change in sound than my open phones.


I've used both my HD 6xx and an old pair of Sony MDR cd280s both are open back. Haven't tried iems yet.


----------



## Keno18

@Mr Trev I wonder if you are expecting too much. The image should float around you. That's the best way I can describe it Give it some listening time to get used to it. Your ears may pick up more information after a time.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Dammit Bill, what's more important than new tubes. I'm disappointed in you.
> From what I've been told… Philips owned Tungsram at one time, and the tubes were made in Hungary, not France.
> The Tungsram I have is noticeably shorter than the Philips and does have a quite different sound. More sparkly and lively, but the Philips' more laid back presentation was starting to grow on me (the Philips paired really well with my 58x)



No worries. I'm pretty ashamed of myself.  If I could kick myself in the butt I would....but I'd probably break something, end up in the hospital, and just delay things further.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> @Mr Trev I wonder if you are expecting too much. The image should float around you. That's the best way I can describe it Give it some listening time to get used to it. Your ears may pick up more information after a time.



There's the rub. That's pretty much what my expectations are, but so far the sound is still pretty much inside my head (along with _the voices_). Doesn't seem to matter too much what I change the setting to, it really doesn't help. The best I've gotten so far is with those DTS wav files. What I expect is the rear channels is a tad lower in the sound space - closer to my earlobes than ear canal. No front to back depth sadly


----------



## Keno18 (Nov 13, 2019)

Mr Trev said:


> There's the rub. That's pretty much what my expectations are, but so far the sound is still pretty much inside my head (along with _the voices_). Doesn't seem to matter too much what I change the setting to, it really doesn't help. The best I've gotten so far is with those DTS wav files. What I expect is the rear channels is a tad lower in the sound space - closer to my earlobes than ear canal. No front to back depth sadly


_I sone_Surround has a distance adjustment, maybe I'll try that and see if it makes a great difference. I think the most you can get is a well populated sound stage. I mean that when I switch back and forth the holes in the image are filled in. I'll listen for depth as I change the distance. BTW I tried HeSuVi. With a live recording In several cases audience coughs appeared to come from behind to the left and right. 

Edit: Increasing the Distance in Isone and Increasing the Width Correction in VI definitely made for more depth and a bigger image all around. I turned up both all the way and compared it with the standard sound side by side. Also using the preset "HRTFs + room simlation"  in Isone helped_


----------



## Keno18

This'll give your tubes a tingle: Mr Trev was kind enough to point me to a piece of software called HeSuVi or Headphone Surround Virtualizer. URL: https://sourceforge.net/projects/hesuvi/postdownload. It offers surround sound by way of dozens of profiles. It seems to work with virtually any player because it installs into your machine's sound system, not the player itself. It even works with dacs, though not the Dragonfly Black, at least mine didn't. There is one requirement, you have to install Equalizer APO first because equalization of your particular headphone is needed to get the maximum benefit. It's easy to set because there are again dozens of preset files covering most brands of headphones. It's all explained on the Sourceforge page and in the wiki you are sent to after the install. It's a great alternative to the plugins I described earlier.


----------



## Keno18

Updated foo_vst_surround.zip. Added a second surround vst plugin and better limiter. URL:https://www.dropbox.com/s/2w26p5fxcqyfjia/foo_vst_surround.zip?dl=0


----------



## Ripper2860

OK -- not Tube-rolling related, but it is Vali 2 related and this seems like as good a place to ask as any ...

Any of you folks have experience using a Vali 2 as a Tube Buffer via pre-out into a solid state amp?  I'm currently using my Valhalla 2 in this capacity (and love it), but want to start using it in another room as a HP amp (imagine that).  Does the Vali 2 impart enough lovely 'tubieness' to effectively act as a tube buffer?  Your thoughts are welcome!!  

Thanks!!


----------



## Keno18

Ripper2860 said:


> OK -- not Tube-rolling related, but it is Vali 2 related and this seems like as good a place to ask as any ...
> 
> Any of you folks have experience using a Vali 2 as a Tube Buffer via pre-out into a solid state amp?  I'm currently using my Valhalla 2 in this capacity (and love it), but want to start using it in another room as a HP amp (imagine that).  Does the Vali 2 impart enough lovely 'tubieness' to effectively act as a tube buffer?  Your thoughts are welcome!!
> 
> Thanks!!


I've tried it as a buffer and found the  bass to be less through the preamp outputs than through the headphone output.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> This'll give your tubes a tingle: Mr Trev was kind enough to point me to a piece of software called HeSuVi or Headphone Surround Virtualizer. URL: https://sourceforge.net/projects/hesuvi/postdownload. It offers surround sound by way of dozens of profiles. It seems to work with virtually any player because it installs into your machine's sound system, not the player itself. It even works with dacs, though not the Dragonfly Black, at least mine didn't. There is one requirement, you have to install Equalizer APO first because equalization of your particular headphone is needed to get the maximum benefit. It's easy to set because there are again dozens of preset files covering most brands of headphones. It's all explained on the Sourceforge page and in the wiki you are sent to after the install. It's a great alternative to the plugins I described earlier.



I just remembered a bit ago why I stopped using HeSuVi and possibly why you can't get  it to work with all DACs. Equalizer APO will only work in directsound. I remembered this when I was trying to figure out why I couldn't get any sound out of my X3 in Foobar - it was set to ASIO. When I switched to directsound it started working, but my laptop sounds like absolute crap with directsound.



Ripper2860 said:


> OK -- not Tube-rolling related, but it is Vali 2 related and this seems like as good a place to ask as any ...
> 
> Any of you folks have experience using a Vali 2 as a Tube Buffer via pre-out into a solid state amp?  I'm currently using my Valhalla 2 in this capacity (and love it), but want to start using it in another room as a HP amp (imagine that).  Does the Vali 2 impart enough lovely 'tubieness' to effectively act as a tube buffer?  Your thoughts are welcome!!
> 
> Thanks!!



That's one thing I've never tried with the Vali. I did try with my Little Bear, but that thing is way too noisy to be useful to be a buffer


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> OK -- not Tube-rolling related, but it is Vali 2 related and this seems like as good a place to ask as any ...
> 
> Any of you folks have experience using a Vali 2 as a Tube Buffer via pre-out into a solid state amp?  I'm currently using my Valhalla 2 in this capacity (and love it), but want to start using it in another room as a HP amp (imagine that).  Does the Vali 2 impart enough lovely 'tubieness' to effectively act as a tube buffer?  Your thoughts are welcome!!
> 
> Thanks!!



Can't help with that question as I never tried my Vali 2 in that function. Sorry.  I went a totally different route and got a tube amp.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 24, 2019)

And yet another unhelpful @bcowen post screaming for the missing HF 'don't like' button.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> Can't help with that question as I never tried my Vali 2 in that function. Sorry.  I went a totally different route and got a tube amp.





Ripper2860 said:


> And yet another unhelpful @bcowen post screaming for the missing HF 'don't like' button.


_*Oh dang*_. 

Seriously, "tube buffer". I'll need to look that up.


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> _*Oh dang*_.
> 
> Seriously, "tube buffer". I'll need to look that up.



Similar to a Ripper buffer....it makes the output more pleasant and enjoyable.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> And yet another unhelpful @bcowen post screaming for the missing HF 'don't like' button.



I strive for consistency.


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> I just remembered a bit ago why I stopped using HeSuVi and possibly why you can't get  it to work with all DACs. Equalizer APO will only work in directsound. I remembered this when I was trying to figure out why I couldn't get any sound out of my X3 in Foobar - it was set to ASIO. When I switched to directsound it started working, but my laptop sounds like absolute crap with directsound.


I got it to work with the ifi nano black label but it's limited to 48k sampling rate so hi-res is out. I guess it is OK if you can't run the vst plugins. The vst plugins are good up to 192 k.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Ripper2860 said:


> OK -- not Tube-rolling related, but it is Vali 2 related and this seems like as good a place to ask as any ...
> 
> Any of you folks have experience using a Vali 2 as a Tube Buffer via pre-out into a solid state amp?  I'm currently using my Valhalla 2 in this capacity (and love it), but want to start using it in another room as a HP amp (imagine that).  Does the Vali 2 impart enough lovely 'tubieness' to effectively act as a tube buffer?  Your thoughts are welcome!!
> 
> Thanks!!


One can never have too many Valhalla amps.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 26, 2019)

I know you honestly think you're being helping, but you're not...

But then again, maybe you are actually being more helpful than you expected.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I know you honestly think you're being helping, but you're not...
> 
> But then again, maybe you are actually being more helpful than you expected.



I'm pretty sure this makes sense on some level....and I'm just on the wrong level.


----------



## Ripper2860

That's OK, Bill.  Folks here are a good lot and will be patient with you while you catch up ...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> That's OK, Bill.  Folks here are a good lot and will be patient with you while you catch up ...



You traded in your Pacer?  Dang.  Looks like the new ride has about the same amount of glass though.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Ripper2860 said:


> I know you honestly think you're being helping, but you're not...
> 
> But then again, maybe you are actually being more helpful than you expected.


I am being helpful to you. Valhalla sounds like nothing else and you already like it. Get another.

Alternatively, get a Saga for tube buffer preampiness and voila, you also have a spare SS preamp. Get what you want. Life is too short for compromise.


----------



## bcowen

KoshNaranek said:


> Get what you want. Life is too short for compromise.



Great advice.  Especially with audio toys.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Ripper2860 said:


> That's OK, Bill.  Folks here are a good lot and will be patient with you while you catch up ...


My ride arrived! I_'ll chose the short-bus over an Uber any day, thankyouverymuch_.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

KoshNaranek said:


> One can never have too many Valhalla amps.



Sure they can. 1 is too many.


Ripper2860 said:


> OK -- not Tube-rolling related, but it is Vali 2 related and this seems like as good a place to ask as any ...
> 
> Any of you folks have experience using a Vali 2 as a Tube Buffer via pre-out into a solid state amp?  I'm currently using my Valhalla 2 in this capacity (and love it), but want to start using it in another room as a HP amp (imagine that).  Does the Vali 2 impart enough lovely 'tubieness' to effectively act as a tube buffer?  Your thoughts are welcome!!
> 
> Thanks!!



Short answer is that you will be disappointed with your vali compared to the Valhalla. The Valhalla is very similar to a purpose built preamp. Its a single ended tube buffer. The vali is a push pull hybrid amplifier. While you can use it as a preamp, its not going to be close to the valhalla. But give it a shot. It might work out for your needs/setup.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah -- I think I'll just start looking at legit tube buffers like the Nobsound dual 12AU7 buffer, etc.  Or maybe a Saga+ ahead of a Vidar purchase in the future.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah -- I think I'll just start looking at legit tube buffers like the Nobsound dual 12AU7 buffer, etc.  Or maybe a Saga+ ahead of a Vidar purchase in the future.



I woudn't touch the nobsound stuff with a 10 foot pole. The saga+ doesn't even impress me either. Honestly the Valhalla is just about as good as any other preamp they make. I wish they would make just a normal simple tube preamp, but they seem to be too focused on building swiss army knife preamps with topologies that probably hurt the sound more than they help. 

You can always keep an eye on ebay and see if something like a conrad johnson preamp doesn't show up for cheap. If nothing else there is always diy.


----------



## Ripper2860

Hmmmm.  I have a BH Crack kit that I have yet to assemble.  Maybe that'll do nicely as a tube buffer.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

Ripper2860 said:


> Hmmmm.  I have a BH Crack kit that I have yet to assemble.  Maybe that'll do nicely as a tube buffer.



There ya go. That would definitely work. 

If you feel comfortable working with the crack, there are a ton of cheap DIY tube preamps floating around the internet. That way you can leave your crack for headphone duty and then have a nice single stage tube preamp.


----------



## Ripper2860

Thanks.  I'll see how the BHC build goes and if I manage to not kill myself or burn the house down, I'll look into DIY tube preamps.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> ...and if I manage to not kill myself...



If you do, I claim dibs on your 7 tubes.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 29, 2019)

That sounds about right, after you summarily declared all tubes that I sent to you for testing as bad and offered to 'dispose' of them for me.  And then I went and did something even more stupid -- I bought a tester from you which seems to fail every tube I ever test on it.  

I'm seeing a trend here... and its not that I'm gullible.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Hmmmm.  I have a BH Crack kit that I have yet to assemble.  Maybe that'll do nicely as a tube buffer.



The BH Crack has no pre-amp out per se, some folks just come out of the TRS jack into dual RCA connectors but I have added that circuit to a couple I built.


----------



## Ripper2860

Doh!  Well, I'm sure I can find a source for that adapter when the time comes.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> If you do, I claim dibs on your 7 tubes.



? 

You do realize this entire thread is kind of stupid right? Swapping 7 different tubes is a complete waste of time and resources. Get a volt meter, figure out the operating conditions of the tube in the vali. Figure out the plate voltage, and the supply voltage. Then figure out how the tube is being biased and what the bias voltage is. 

Once you have these parameters, start looking at tube data sheets and figure out what tube is the most linear and well loaded at those parameters. 

For instance if the tube is biased at lowish current and low bias voltage, I would run away from the ECC88 and 6922 type tubes. The 6bq7a is a better tube at lower operating conditions. 

However if schiit biased the tube for a bit more current (something in the 15ma range), then the 6922 COULD be better because of its lower plate resistance. 

The other catch is to understand that as any of these tubes approach the 0v grid line, all of these tubes start to fall apart. A tube with a higher amplification factor could help you crank the volume up higher whilst staying away from the 0v gird line and keeping distortion at a minimum. 

Blindly swapping tubes around without understanding the circuit is just throwing good money after bad.


----------



## Mr Trev

Ripper2860 said:


> That sounds about right, after you summarily declared all tubes that I sent to you for testing as bad and offered to 'dispose' of them for me.  And then I went and did something even more stupid -- I bought a tester from you which seems to fail every tube I ever test on it.
> 
> I'm seeing a trend here... and its not that I'm gullible.



You bought a tester? You should've held out for a tester box. From what I've gathered box rolling is the in thing now


----------



## Paladin79

Tjj226 Angel said:


> ?
> 
> You do realize this entire thread is kind of stupid right? Swapping 7 different tubes is a complete waste of time and resources. Get a volt meter, figure out the operating conditions of the tube in the vali. Figure out the plate voltage, and the supply voltage. Then figure out how the tube is being biased and what the bias voltage is.
> 
> ...



Some of us happened to talk to Jason Stoddard before swapping tubes and he designed the amp. Thanks for your input though.


----------



## Ripper2860

Tjj226 Angel said:


> ?
> 
> You do realize this entire thread is kind of stupid right? Swapping 7 different tubes is a complete waste of time and resources. Get a volt meter, figure out the operating conditions of the tube in the vali. Figure out the plate voltage, and the supply voltage. Then figure out how the tube is being biased and what the bias voltage is.
> 
> ...



Bill was joking.  Sadly, I have approx.200 tubes and my refurbished and calibrated BK tester was a bargain.  I tend to stick with tubes that closely align with the design of the amp in which they will be used.  I'm no expert and rely on the tester to tell me if the tubes are strong and balanced.  

Btw-  I'm not a hoarder - I'm a collector, dammit!


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

Paladin79 said:


> Some of us happened to talk to Jason Stoddard before swapping tubes and he designed the amp. Thanks for your input though.



Did he tell you guys what the operating conditions were or did he tell you what his opinions were?


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 29, 2019)

Tjj226 Angel said:


> Did he tell you guys what the operating conditions were or did he tell you what his opinions were?




He mentioned which tube types matched up. I am not sure where you got 7 types.

The biggest concern was 6SN7’s as I recall.


----------



## bcowen

Tjj226 Angel said:


> You do realize this entire thread is kind of stupid right?



Then either you enjoy reading stupid stuff or you're just trolling. 

Ignore set.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Then either you enjoy reading stupid stuff or you're just trolling.
> 
> Ignore set.


Come on. The fella has a scientific method of determining what other people should enjoy hearing. No wonder he has 34 likes for 500+ posts.


----------



## Shane D

Has anybody tried the https://www.thetubestore.com/rca-6cg7-6fq7?cur=CAD?

I just read on the site that can't be named that it was a pretty good for Both the Lyr 3 and Vali 2.

I got some new toys recently and haven't used this amp in weeks. I really do have to get back into it.

Shane D


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> Then either you enjoy reading stupid stuff or you're just trolling.
> 
> Ignore set.





Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Come on. The fella has a scientific method of determining what other people should enjoy hearing. No wonder he has 34 likes for 500+ posts.



Meh. Think what yall want. But spending this kind of money on rolling tubes without knowing whats actually going on in your amplifier is nothing short of flying blind. I care if you buy a western electirc, brimar, or hytron tube. I just care about using the right type of tube for the job.


----------



## CAPT Deadpool

I'm helping with a Head-Fi meet on 15 Dec in the Washington D.C. Area. 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dc-area-meet-december-15th-2019.919067/

Schiit will be sending us some gear to demo and @Paladin79 will be providing the tubes from the tube shootout for us to compare in a Lyr 3. 

I'll be bringing some of my Schiit gear and phones as well.

Hope to see some of you there!


----------



## Ripper2860

Wish I could be there Capt D.

Hmmmm. I have a hankering for Fish planks and Hush Puppies all of a sudden.


----------



## Paladin79

Tjj226 Angel said:


> Meh. Think what yall want. But spending this kind of money on rolling tubes without knowing whats actually going on in your amplifier is nothing short of flying blind. I care if you buy a western electirc, brimar, or hytron tube. I just care about using the right type of tube for the job.


You care if we buy specific brands? I believe you mean you do not care. Good luck in your tube rolling or lack there of.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Wish I could be there Capt D.
> 
> Hmmmm. I have a hankering for Fish planks and Hush Puppies all of a sudden.


I am going to be in the area the following week so I will just miss the get together. I am more likely to go for lobster, oyster bars, and crab cakes.


----------



## Ripper2860

You may not have Captain D's in IN ...


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> You may not have Captain D's in IN ...


Nope but we had them in Louisville during some of my college days.

In the DC area I hope to get to Linear Tube Audio, David Berninig designs.


----------



## Mr Trev (Nov 29, 2019)

Shane D said:


> Has anybody tried the https://www.thetubestore.com/rca-6cg7-6fq7?cur=CAD?
> 
> I just read on the site that can't be named that it was a pretty good for Both the Lyr 3 and Vali 2.
> 
> ...



I got one myself, definitely would recommend it - even though it has taken a backseat to the ecc40s. Although, you can find em for much better prices than that. I paid ~$10 for mine.


----------



## Shane D

Mr Trev said:


> I got one myself, definately would recommend it - even though it has taken a backseat to the ecc40s. Although, you can find em for much better prices than that. I paid ~$10 for mine.



May I ask where?

Shane D


----------



## Mr Trev

Shane D said:


> May I ask where?
> 
> Shane D


Vivatubes.com. Even with exchange and shipping it was still way less than $40


----------



## bcowen (Nov 29, 2019)

Shane D said:


> Has anybody tried the https://www.thetubestore.com/rca-6cg7-6fq7?cur=CAD?
> 
> I just read on the site that can't be named that it was a pretty good for Both the Lyr 3 and Vali 2.
> 
> ...



The clear top (side getter) RCA 6CG7 is a great tube for the money. They used to be super cheap -- I think the going rate was around $5 a tube back years ago when I was stashing up _collecting_ them. I don't remember trying one in the Vali2. Might have, but if I did it didn't stand out or I'd probably remember it.  Sounds good in the Lyr 3, but not as good as some of the more revered 6SN7's to my ears (and equipment).  But it's a lot less expensive than some of those too especially if you shop around some.  Vivatubes has some on Ebay right now. I've bought a couple tubes from them and they were exactly as advertised. They have a regular web store as well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-NIB-Gain-Matched-Pair-2-RCA-6CG7-6FQ7-Clear-Top-Vacuum-Tubes-BRAZIL/123965093731?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=1&asc=20131003132420&meid=216a6284667b4372970d2d2a1c413724&pid=100005&rk=2&rkt=12&mehot=pf&sd=174106790553&itm=123965093731&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851






Edit: Apparently @Mr Trev and I were typing at the same time.  Great minds think alike. LOL!!


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> The clear top (side getter) RCA 6CG7 is a great tube for the money. They used to be super cheap -- I think the going rate was around $5 a tube back years ago when I was stashing up _collecting_ them. I don't remember trying one in the Vali2. Might have, but if I did it didn't stand out or I'd probably remember it.  Sounds good in the Lyr 3, but not as good as some of the more revered 6SN7's to my ears (and equipment).  But it's a lot less expensive than some of those too especially if you shop around some.  Vivatubes has some on Ebay right now. I've bought a couple tubes from them and they were exactly as advertised. They have a regular web store as well.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-NIB-Gain-Matched-Pair-2-RCA-6CG7-6FQ7-Clear-Top-Vacuum-Tubes-BRAZIL/123965093731?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=1&asc=20131003132420&meid=216a6284667b4372970d2d2a1c413724&pid=100005&rk=2&rkt=12&mehot=pf&sd=174106790553&itm=123965093731&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
> 
> ...



They also had a bunch of relabeled ones too if your looking to cheap out. Mine was branded "Sears" and supposedly has perfect matching sides.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

Paladin79 said:


> You care if we buy specific brands? I believe you mean you do not care. Good luck in your tube rolling or lack there of.



Correct. I deleted and retyped something. 

And just for clarification. I am not against tube rolling. I am against throwing different electrical components at the wall and seeing what sticks. If this were a tube rolling thread about how different 6sn7s sound, you would have never heard from me. 

Im just going to see if I can't buy a cheap vali 2 off ebay and probe it myself. I will see if there are any other upgrades that can be made without too much fuss either.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> They also had a bunch of relabeled ones too if your looking to cheap out. Mine was branded "Sears" and supposedly has perfect matching sides.



Sears is believable.  I'm still scratching my head though on the ones @Ripper2860 has that are labeled Wal-Mart.  Must have been a price rollback on those.


----------



## Ripper2860

You laugh, but they sonically beat the crap out of the Dollar General labeled tubes I found at the flea market.


----------



## Paladin79

Tjj226 Angel said:


> Correct. I deleted and retyped something.
> 
> And just for clarification. I am not against tube rolling. I am against throwing different electrical components at the wall and seeing what sticks. If this were a tube rolling thread about how different 6sn7s sound, you would have never heard from me.
> 
> Im just going to see if I can't buy a cheap vali 2 off ebay and probe it myself. I will see if there are any other upgrades that can be made without too much fuss either.


Lol good luck seeing if you can’t buy one.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

Paladin79 said:


> Lol good luck seeing if you can’t buy one.



Yeah? I am going to see if I can not buy one for cheap. Its the same as I am going to see if I can buy one for cheap. Its a glass half full / half empty statement. It works either way. Stay focused here.

In any case, ebay didn't return any results. If anyone knows of vali 2 for sale let me know. Im trying to keep the price down to below 100 bucks and preferably closer to 50 since I will probably just give the amp away when I am done with it. I will also be more than happy to buy a broken or damaged amp.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Paladin79

Tjj226 Angel said:


> Yeah? I am going to see if I can not buy one for cheap. Its the same as I am going to see if I can buy one for cheap. Its a glass half full / half empty statement. It works either way. Stay focused here.
> 
> In any case, ebay didn't return any results. If anyone knows of vali 2 for sale let me know. Im trying to keep the price down to below 100 bucks and preferably closer to 50 since I will probably just give the amp away when I am done with it. I will also be more than happy to buy a broken or damaged amp.


[/QUOTE]

Watch B stock, they are usually $100 when you buy directly from Schiit. How many of those amps have you seen the inside of by the way? I own or have owned everything except a Saga and the original Lyr so perhaps I know them a little.
 If you want some practice you can start with the Coaster, (Vali Mini), it comes with a schematic so that might help you understand the Vali 2 a bit. I worked with Jason early on with those and found an issue with the bom and schematic but it is fixed now.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You laugh, but they sonically beat the crap out of the Dollar General labeled tubes I found at the flea market.



Dollar General labeled tubes were made by GE.  I bet if you look closely you'll find some little dots etched in the glass under the logo.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

Paladin79 said:


> Watch B stock, they are usually $100 when you buy directly from Schiit. How many of those amps have you seen the inside of by the way? I own or have owned everything except a Saga and the original Lyr so perhaps I know them a little.
> If you want some practice you can start with the Coaster, (Vali Mini), it comes with a schematic so that might help you understand the Vali 2 a bit. I worked with Jason early on with those and found an issue with the bom and schematic but it is fixed now.



I checked b stock, but I will continue to watch it. 

I saw inside the original lyr. I also poked around the Yggdrasil.

I build my own tube amps, so I do have experience with circuits and what not. I actually just got a pretty nice scope with a built in distortion analyzer and a signal generator, so I am hoping to be able to show you guys what I am on about. One thing I wish I could get my hands on is a decent tube curve tracer.

I did have a look at the coaster amp. I hope that the vali 2 does not run on low voltage like the coaster amp does. If it does, then it sort of confirms my theory, and then I can speak a bit more liberally. Tubes do not behave well at lower voltages and they really don't perform well when operated close to saturation. There are tubes that perform better than others in this region. And when I say perform I don't mean that one tube will sound better than another. I mean one will barely even work and the other will actually perform well.

I am hoping this isn't the case with the vali 2 and that schiit used a voltage multiplier to boost the power supply voltage to run the tube in a decent region of the curves. If not, then I will see what I can do about making some mods and documenting the process.


----------



## Paladin79

Tjj226 Angel said:


> I checked b stock, but I will continue to watch it.
> 
> I saw inside the original lyr. I also poked around the Yggdrasil.
> 
> ...



The Vali mini uses miniature tubes, that much should have been obvious, I own a few curve tracers, various scopes, signal generators and a complete shop. You need not show me what you are about, you have demonstrated it nicely.


----------



## Keno18

So I got my JJ 6sn7 I ordered from tubedepot.com today. I mean if Jason Stoddard likes them there must be something there. After a few hours I don't find myself wanting to go to another tube. The top end is crisp, good detail retrieval, mids are well defined and the low end is capable of a good growl. So in all I like it. But what I really wanted to talk about is the free gift tubedepot is giving with orders, mine turned out to be 10 ft. of uninsulated steel bus wire. If I'm not building an amp I can always make some spare paper clips I guess.


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> So I got my JJ 6sn7 I ordered from tubedepot.com today. I mean if Jason Stoddard likes them there must be something there. After a few hours I don't find myself wanting to go to another tube. The top end is crisp, good detail retrieval, mids are well defined and the low end is capable of a good growl. So in all I like it. But what I really wanted to talk about is the free gift tubedepot is giving with orders, mine turned out to be 10 ft. of uninsulated steel bus wire. If I'm not building an amp I can always make some spare paper clips I guess.



Steel bus wire? For Free?!?  I love free stuff, even if I'll never use it.  Beats the unneeded and useless junk my wife buys only because it was on sale and she "saved" so much money.  

Seriously, good to know on the JJ's. Thanks for the info!


----------



## Paladin79

Keno18 said:


> So I got my JJ 6sn7 I ordered from tubedepot.com today. I mean if Jason Stoddard likes them there must be something there. After a few hours I don't find myself wanting to go to another tube. The top end is crisp, good detail retrieval, mids are well defined and the low end is capable of a good growl. So in all I like it. But what I really wanted to talk about is the free gift tubedepot is giving with orders, mine turned out to be 10 ft. of uninsulated steel bus wire. If I'm not building an amp I can always make some spare paper clips I guess.



I hope you are talking tinned copper.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I hope you are talking tinned copper.



Not that I'm a veterinarian or anything, but steel would be safer for Finnegan to chew on than tin or copper.


----------



## Keno18 (Dec 5, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I hope you are talking tinned copper.


Feels way too stiff to be copper, I'll have a closer look.
Edit: I looked closely where it was cut, no copper color.


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> So I got my JJ 6sn7 I ordered from tubedepot.com today. I mean if Jason Stoddard likes them there must be something there. After a few hours I don't find myself wanting to go to another tube. The top end is crisp, good detail retrieval, mids are well defined and the low end is capable of a good growl. So in all I like it. But what I really wanted to talk about is the free gift tubedepot is giving with orders, mine turned out to be 10 ft. of uninsulated steel bus wire. If I'm not building an amp I can always make some spare paper clips I guess.



Hey, just be happy your free gift wasn't a GE tube


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 5, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Not that I'm a veterinarian or anything, but steel would be safer for Finnegan to chew on than tin or copper.


Well tinning is often a solder coating and unless it is ROHS compliant it can contain lead and that is a cumulative poison so you are correct.

Have I not already said you were right about something this year? Are you trying to press your luck?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well tinning is often a solder coating and unless it is ROHS compliant it can contain lead and that is a cumulative poison so you are correct.
> 
> Have I not already said you were right about something this year? Are you trying to press your luck?



Well, I was going for 3 times, but I'm running out of year.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Hey, just be happy your free gift wasn't a GE tube



LOL! 

Or worse,_ two_ GE tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, I was going for 3 times, but I'm running out of year.


I do not often quote Meatloaf but in your case two out of three ain’t bad.


----------



## bibbs

bit late to the party but just sort of found out about Schiit as i was looking for a phono stage for the eldest son. anyway i ended up getting the Mani and this Vali 2. i got the Vali 2 due to reading this thread and since i like to tinker it sounded right up my street, not tried the Mani yet but this little Vali 2 is an intresting little gem. its ermm silly cheep and fun. ok its not going to set the audiofool bragerade top list but for the price its incredible. lets put it in perspective. if you Diy'd this amp you would not even cover the board and components let alone the casework. looking at pics on the net of the board i was all set to change the caps to better ones but on closer inspection they are already good quality nichicon througout which is incredible at this price.

TBT i was very very anoyed when i first powred up and connected to my headphones which are Beyerdynamic DT880 600ohm with T1 2nd gen ear pads, the earpads turn the 880's into something really nice. anyway i turned up the volume and kept turning it up and up and ermm it went no more and i thaught to myself "my computer sound card is louder than this" and thaught seriusly about returning it, well that is untill i remembred it has low and high gain. with the flick of a switch it was ermm much much better.. lol

not got many hours on the Vali 2 but waht i'm hearing i'm liking, i think i have the miniwatt valve, the only thing i can see on the glass is the numbres 32 and a faint sort of philips or GE logo.

ok i'll be giving the Vali 2, to my son along with the Mani and a systemdek iix which i have fully serviced as he wants to get into those strange black discs of which i have a fair old collection, probably not for long though.. lol

why am i writing this in the tube rolling thread i hear you ask.. well after reading a fair old whack of this thread i looks like i can change the valve for a 6SN7 (recomendations welcome) which by all acount totaly wipes the floor with the stock tube for not a lot of £. if i hear what i like after sticking a 6sn7 in i might just buy myself one of these little gems. yes i like what i hear so far with the stock tube even though it as SnT problems and some vocals sound like a squeez box along with one note bass lines.

please excuse my spelling as i'm dyslekit.

BTW on a side note my case has a rebated volume hole which does not let light through.


----------



## Keno18

bibbs said:


> bit late to the party but just sort of found out about Schiit as i was looking for a phono stage for the eldest son. anyway i ended up getting the Mani and this Vali 2. i got the Vali 2 due to reading this thread and since i like to tinker it sounded right up my street, not tried the Mani yet but this little Vali 2 is an intresting little gem. its ermm silly cheep and fun. ok its not going to set the audiofool bragerade top list but for the price its incredible. lets put it in perspective. if you Diy'd this amp you would not even cover the board and components let alone the casework. looking at pics on the net of the board i was all set to change the caps to better ones but on closer inspection they are already good quality nichicon througout which is incredible at this price.
> 
> TBT i was very very anoyed when i first powred up and connected to my headphones which are Beyerdynamic DT880 600ohm with T1 2nd gen ear pads, the earpads turn the 880's into something really nice. anyway i turned up the volume and kept turning it up and up and ermm it went no more and i thaught to myself "my computer sound card is louder than this" and thaught seriusly about returning it, well that is untill i remembred it has low and high gain. with the flick of a switch it was ermm much much better.. lol
> 
> ...


Yes, the 6sn7 I have found to be the best sounding tube for the Vali 2 as others I think others will agree. As to which type you'll get many different opinions. Personally I can recommend two types. For new production the JJ 6sn7 is a good tube especially for the price. I'm listening to it now. For vintage tubes I like the Tung-Sol 6sn7gt mouse ears. Also not too high in price. Be prepared for a flood of other suggestions. One thing is certain, you will need a 9 Pin Socket Saver and a 6sn7 to 6922 adapter. The hole in the chassis of the Vali is too small to fit the wider 6sn7. These are available from ebay vendors as well as tubedepot.com here in the States.


----------



## timb5881 (Dec 6, 2019)

My Vali 2 seems to have died.  I had not used for a couple of days, left it in the off setting, but plugged in.   Tonight I tried to use it and no power light, no tube glow.  I am going to let the power supply unplugged over night and see if that does any good.  Fixed, did not realize the wall switch to that outlet was off.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 6, 2019)

bibbs said:


> bit late to the party but just sort of found out about Schiit as i was looking for a phono stage for the eldest son. anyway i ended up getting the Mani and this Vali 2. i got the Vali 2 due to reading this thread and since i like to tinker it sounded right up my street, not tried the Mani yet but this little Vali 2 is an intresting little gem. its ermm silly cheep and fun. ok its not going to set the audiofool bragerade top list but for the price its incredible. lets put it in perspective. if you Diy'd this amp you would not even cover the board and components let alone the casework. looking at pics on the net of the board i was all set to change the caps to better ones but on closer inspection they are already good quality nichicon througout which is incredible at this price.
> 
> TBT i was very very anoyed when i first powred up and connected to my headphones which are Beyerdynamic DT880 600ohm with T1 2nd gen ear pads, the earpads turn the 880's into something really nice. anyway i turned up the volume and kept turning it up and up and ermm it went no more and i thaught to myself "my computer sound card is louder than this" and thaught seriusly about returning it, well that is untill i remembred it has low and high gain. with the flick of a switch it was ermm much much better.. lol
> 
> ...



Not to spoil your fun or anything, but the Vali 2 may not be the best match for your 600 ohm Beyers.  At that impedance, you're only getting 140 milliwatts of power, and while the DT880's are reasonably sensitive, I wouldn't refer to them as highly sensitive.  But if you like the sound you're getting that's really all that matters. Since you're giving the Vali you have to your son (what a Dad!), you might take a look at the Valhalla for yourself. More money, but 2.5x the power into a 600 ohm headphone.

For adapters, if you're in the EU you might want to PM fellow HeadFi'er  @Deyan . He does some _very_ nice work and may even cost you less (delivered) than buying from China.


----------



## bibbs

thanks for the replys everyone. there seems to be three popular places here in the uk to get valves, HotRox, Watford and Langrex well thats what i have found no doubt there are a lot more.

is it necessary to have the valve triodes matched? as i seem to think i read that the Vali 2 has auto biasing. it only seems to be Watford that have matching as an option and only on the Tung-sol 6SN7GTB.

i'll give Deyan a PM at some point soon about an adaptor. i'm thinking of taking the case down to the workshop and putting the alloy top in the milling machine to enlarge the hole so the valve dont stick out as much. if push come to shove i could even make up a complete new top.

if the Vali 2 can handle the DT880 600's then it will handle the superlux HD-330 that the son uses. those cans are an absolute audio bargain with the right earpads and a bit of dampening in the cups.

i pretty much gave up on hifi years ago in favour of AV. the system i'm cobbling together for the son is bits i have lying around and if he looks after the systemdek i might even give him the PT-TOO.


----------



## Keno18

bibbs said:


> thanks for the replys everyone. there seems to be three popular places here in the uk to get valves, HotRox, Watford and Langrex well thats what i have found no doubt there are a lot more.
> 
> is it necessary to have the valve triodes matched? as i seem to think i read that the Vali 2 has auto biasing. it only seems to be Watford that have matching as an option and only on the Tung-sol 6SN7GTB.
> 
> ...


I have never found matching to be be a problem. I haven't bothered to order a matched 6sn7 yet.


----------



## bibbs

just finished reading the whole thread and its been amusing. you peeps are nutz, i like it.

anybody tried the new Brimar factory tubes? i like the idea of buying new and also helping a heritage site.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 11, 2019)

1st of all -- WELCOME!!

2nd of all -- KUDOS on reading this thread in its entirety.

Depending on where you in in the galaxy, you may or may not be able to get them.  The "new production" Brimars are not available in the US, as far as I know (or is that Mullard?).  Anyhow -- I've not heard anything about them, but if you want new production tubes I suggest JJ Electronic as a few here have had good things to say and they are pretty darn cheap.  Doesn't hurt that they are Schiit's new tube of choice in their 6SN7-based amps (replaced new production Tungsol).


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> 1st of all -- WELCOME!!
> 
> 2nd of all -- KUDOS on reading this thread in its entirety.
> 
> Depending on where you in in the galaxy, you may or may not be able to get them.  The "new production" Brimars are not available in the US, as far as I know (or is that Mullard?).  Anyhow -- I've not heard anything about them, but if you want new production tubes, I suggest JJ Electronic as a few here have had good things to say and they are pretty darn cheap.  Doesn't hurt that they are Schiit's new tube of choice in their 6SN7-based amps (replaced new production Tungsol).



Nope, shipping to the US not currently available...which is of major benefit to my wallet.  LOL!

They have US states populated in the drop-down menu for shipping estimates, so it appears they are getting set up for it though.

And welcome to @bibbs !


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bibbs said:


> just finished reading the whole thread and its been amusing. you peeps are nutz, i like it.
> 
> anybody tried the new Brimar factory tubes? i like the idea of buying new and also helping a heritage site.


Welcome to the thread, eh. While I'm mainly using my Valhalla 2 and (newly purchased) Asgard2-BifrostMB pairing, _my mighty Vali 2 is kept close on hand_.


----------



## Shane D

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Welcome to the thread, eh. While I'm mainly using my Valhalla 2 and (newly purchased) Asgard2-BifrostMB pairing, _my mighty Vali 2 is kept close on hand_.



Wow, you really are a Schiit head. 

Have you ever looked at or considered the Lyr 3? Or, do you feel your needs are all covered and the Lyr 3 would bring nothing new to the party for you?

Curious to hear from the true believers.

Shane D

PS: I LOVE my Loki and really like my Vali 2, so I am also a fan.


----------



## KoshNaranek

bibbs said:


> just finished reading the whole thread and its been amusing. you peeps are nutz, i like it.
> 
> anybody tried the new Brimar factory tubes? i like the idea of buying new and also helping a heritage site.


New Brimar tubes are relabled New Sensor Corporation tubes. In other words, Electro Harmonix/Tung-Sol


----------



## bibbs

i would say they look more like these https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/shuguang/shuguang-6sn7gt-x2-6sn7-pair-paired-tube-p-8327.html or https://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/6sn7gt-tad-premium-selected

i have been procrastinating and not ordered anything


----------



## bibbs

ooohh forgot to say i'm in sunny Scotland. so ordering from Brimar is not a problem.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 13, 2019)

KoshNaranek said:


> New Brimar tubes are relabled New Sensor Corporation tubes. In other words, Electro Harmonix/Tung-Sol



Yep -- Russian tubes.  The cup getter holder is a dead give-away.  The only thing these share with NOS Brimar tubes is the name.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep -- Russian tubes.  The only thing they share with NOS Brimar tubes is the name.



I used to think Russian tubes were junk until I got a hold of Fotons and Melz.


----------



## bibbs

just ordered the Brimar 6SN7GT. it cant be that bad compared to the stock one i have which is







pic stolen from the net but is identical to the one i have.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 13, 2019)

Well, practically anything is better than a Sovtek.  


bcowen said:


> I used to think Russian tubes were junk until I got a hold of Fotons and Melz.



True, but I suspect the new production Brimars are closer to EH than Foton or Melz.  



bibbs said:


> just ordered the Brimar 6SN7GT. it cant be that bad compared to the stock one i have...



You're probably right!!


----------



## bcowen

bibbs said:


> just ordered the Brimar 6SN7GT. it cant be that bad compared to the stock one i have which is
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hope the pins on yours are cleaner than that one.  Such atrocities should be considered a death penalty offense.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> True, but I suspect the new production Brimars are closer to EH than Foton or Melz.



Entirely possible, but if they are truly using Brimars designs and tooling, they could be pretty decent. I'll probably have to try one whenever they become available to us US-ians.


----------



## bibbs

i think once Brimar are up and running with their machinery and enthusiasts things might get better. they seem keen. price was ok for a new not old stock tube, only £4 postage.

TBH i CBA playing Russian roulette. if the brimar sounds good i'll stock up. how long do tubes last on average?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 13, 2019)

I don't think they are using the Brimar design.  Different plates, getter holder and spacers.  Unlike any NOS Brimar I've ever seen, but who knows -- the may be totally AWESOME!!

The general consensus on lifetime for 6SN7GT seems to be about 5,000 hours.


----------



## bibbs

Ripper2860 said:


> The general consensus on lifetime for 6SN7GT seems to be about 5,000 hours.



best turn it off when not in use then. or it will be a tube a year.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 13, 2019)

My rule of thumb is if it will go an hour w/o listening, I turn it off.  If I'm stepping away and will be back to listening in an hour or less, I leave it on.  Repeated power cycles for short sessions can be more stress on a tube than just leaving it on for a bit.


----------



## bibbs

would this be the correct pinout for an adaptor?


----------



## bcowen

bibbs said:


> would this be the correct pinout for an adaptor?



Yup.  Perfect.


----------



## Keno18

Santa stopped by early and dropped off a pair of Drop/Hifiman HE4XXs. Sounds great with the Vali 2 and new Tung-Sol 6sn7GTB. Completely different SQ from the HD6XXs I'm used to. Much more detailed highs, imaging is better because of it. More space around instruments. Really deep, but not overpowering bass. Takes getting used to.


----------



## Ripper2860

Congrats and enjoy. I'm  a huge fan of Hifiman's sound profile.


----------



## Keno18

Ripper2860 said:


> Congrats and enjoy. I'm  a huge fan of Hifiman's sound profile.


Thank you .


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> Santa stopped by early and dropped off a pair of Drop/Hifiman HE4XXs. Sounds great with the Vali 2 and new Tung-Sol 6sn7GTB. Completely different SQ from the HD6XXs I'm used to. Much more detailed highs, imaging is better because of it. More space around instruments. Really deep, but not overpowering bass. Takes getting used to.



I'd recommend giving 12au7s a try with the 4xx. My 400i loves them… huge soundstage that works so well with ambienty type music


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> I'd recommend giving 12au7s a try with the 4xx. My 400i loves them… huge soundstage that works so well with ambienty type music


You're right! Gonna roll through my little collection. Thanks for the tip.


----------



## Keno18

Just tried my secret weapon, the 12ax7 EH. Is it sacreligious to say I like this combination  (HE4XX / Vali 2 / 12ax7 EH) better than the HD6XX / DarkVoice / 6sn7?


----------



## Ripper2860

Keno18 said:


> Just tried my secret weapon, the 12ax7 EH. Is it sacreligious to say I like this combination  (HE4XX / Vali 2 / 12ax7 EH) better than the HD6XX / DarkVoice / 6sn7?



Nope.  Not at all!!


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> Santa stopped by early and dropped off a pair of Drop/Hifiman HE4XXs. Sounds great with the Vali 2 and new Tung-Sol 6sn7GTB. Completely different SQ from the HD6XXs I'm used to. Much more detailed highs, imaging is better because of it. More space around instruments. Really deep, but not overpowering bass. Takes getting used to.



Cool!  Merry Christmas to you!  I need a jealous emoticon, but can't seem to find one...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 16, 2019)

Mailman rang the door bell about 1/2 hours ago and my Hifiman Arya headphone has arrived!!!!  Thank you, Santa!!


----------



## Keno18 (Dec 16, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Mailman rang the door bell about 1/2 hours ago and my Hifiman Arya headphone has arrived!!!!  Thank you, Santa!!


We really need a jealous emoticon! Enjoy!


----------



## Keno18

Ripper2860 said:


> Mailman rang the door bell about 1/2 hours ago and my Hifiman Arya headphone has arrived!!!!  Thank you, Santa!!


I think the HE4XX is a vast improvement over the HD6XX, I can't even imagine how much better the Arya is!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 16, 2019)

I started with the HF HE400S and I was hooked.  Honestly - while the Arya is very good, it's hard to justify the move from Ananda to Arya.  While Arya is a better HP, one is definitely deep into point of diminishing returns.

And my semi open back HD6XX is mostly unused - especially now that I have the AFC for noisy environments.


----------



## Mr Trev

Ripper2860 said:


> I started with the HF HE400S and I was hooked.  Honestly - while the Arya is very good, it's hard to justify the move from Ananda to Arya.  While Arya is a better HP, one is definitely deep into point of diminishing returns.
> 
> And my semi open back HD6XX is mostly unused - especially now that I have the AFC for noisy environments.



Yup, I think the only thing that'd make me get rid of my 400i is a trade-in on either the Sundara or Ananda. Hey, I just realized Ananda kinda rhymes with Canada - my decision has been made!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 16, 2019)

I traded up from Sundara to Ananda previuosly.  That was definitely worth the difference.  When and if the time comes, save up for Ananda.  It bests Sundara by a significant margian.  

And to keep this Schiit related - they sound awesome on Lyr 3 and likely Vali 2 as well.


----------



## Keno18

Before I'd upgrade to the Sundara, I'd upgrade the Vali probably to the Asgard 3, if not the Lyr 3 (but that's pushing it). I can't see putting better HPs on the Vali.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 16, 2019)

Can't disagree with that logic, but Vali 2 can be very surprising as far as how well it scales with good HPs. 

Asgard 3 is a pretty solid amp from all I've read.  Essentially a tubeless Lyr 3 with a bit less power.  Easily up to the task of driving Sundara or Ananda.


----------



## Keno18

Ripper2860 said:


> Can't disagree with that logic, but Vali 2 can be very surprising as far as how well it scakes with good HPs.
> 
> Asgard 3 is a pretty solid amp from all I've read.  Essentially a tubeless Lyr 3 with a bit less power.  Easily up to the task of driving Sundara or Ananda.


Looks like it'll be the Asgard. My wife wants to get me something special for my 70th and she's comfortable with that. A few months after that I'll spring the idea of the Sundara on her.


----------



## Ripper2860

Check out HF member Currawong's YouTube review of Lyr 3 and Innerfidelity's "Wall of Fame" Sundara review.  Currawong actually compares the A3 to L3 and is pretty darn impressed.


----------



## Keno18

Ripper2860 said:


> Check out HF member Currawong's YouTube review of Lyr 3 and Innerfidelity's "Wall of Fame" Sundara review.  Currawong actually compares the A3 to L3 and is pretty darn impressed.


I've seen Currawong's review, I will check out Innerfidelity's. Thanks again.


----------



## Ripper2860

Sorry -- I meant Currawong's ASGARD 3 review.  He compares it to Lyr 3...


----------



## Keno18

Ripper2860 said:


> Sorry -- I meant Currawong's ASGARD 3 review.  He compares it to Lyr 3...


No problem, I knew what you meant.


----------



## Keno18

@Mr Trev: Check out the JJ 6sn7 in place of the 12au7. Beats them all including the mouse ears. Lush highs, real sense of space overall with the planars.


----------



## attmci

Keno18 said:


> @Mr Trev: Check out the JJ 6sn7 in place of the 12au7. Beats them all including the mouse ears. Lush highs, real sense of space overall with the planars.


You can test some other equipment here:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/canjam-global-2020-general.914837/


----------



## Keno18

attmci said:


> You can test some other equipment here:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/canjam-global-2020-general.914837/


Thanks, just now subscribed.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Mr Trev said:


> Yup, I think the only thing that'd make me get rid of my 400i is a trade-in on either the Sundara or Ananda. Hey, I just realized Ananda kinda rhymes with Canada - my decision has been made!


You need to listen to this album on your Ananda headphones


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bibbs said:


> bit late to the party but just sort of found out about Schiit as i was looking for a phono stage for the eldest son. anyway i ended up getting the Mani and this Vali 2. i got the Vali 2 due to reading this thread and since i like to tinker it sounded right up my street, not tried the Mani yet but this little Vali 2 is an intresting little gem. its ermm silly cheep and fun. ok its not going to set the audiofool bragerade top list but for the price its incredible. lets put it in perspective. if you Diy'd this amp you would not even cover the board and components let alone the casework. looking at pics on the net of the board i was all set to change the caps to better ones but on closer inspection they are already good quality nichicon througout which is incredible at this price.
> 
> TBT i was very very anoyed when i first powred up and connected to my headphones which are Beyerdynamic DT880 600ohm with T1 2nd gen ear pads, the earpads turn the 880's into something really nice. anyway i turned up the volume and kept turning it up and up and ermm it went no more and i thaught to myself "my computer sound card is louder than this" and thaught seriusly about returning it, well that is untill i remembred it has low and high gain. with the flick of a switch it was ermm much much better.. lol
> 
> ...


Hi there, click on my signature and you will find 6SN7 I came to like in my Vali 2.Just saying


----------



## bibbs

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Hi there, click on my signature and you will find 6SN7 I came to like in my Vali 2.Just saying



i had a read which was interesting. i cant wait for the Brimar to arrive to see just how much of a difference it makes.

on an unrelated note. i got myself a Project VC-E RCM but it was broken in the post  so i'm waiting on that to be exchanged.

this little present for son #1 has hit £550ish which i think is not bad for a full headphone TT setup inc an ikea cabinet/shelf thing.


----------



## Keno18

This suprised me. Rolled a Genelex 6922 Gold Lion in the Vali. With the HE 4xx I actually like the way it sounds. Didn't like the Genelex before. Must be the curve of the 4 xx.


----------



## Mr Trev

*Matched Pair of Tube Socks*
https://www.vivatubes.com/matched-pair-of-tube-socks/


----------



## Keno18

It's not a coincidence, tried an Electro-harmonix 6922 gold and it also sounds good with the HE 4xx. Different from the Genelex but good in it's own right.


----------



## Joe Garfield (Dec 20, 2019)

I just ordered Vali 2, Mimby, and a Dutch Amperex Orange Globe 6DJ8 NOS tube =D. That tube seemed like a good place to start rolling.

Its for HD650 cans.


----------



## Ripper2860

Very nice.  Should do quite well with HD650.  Enjoy!


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> *Matched Pair of Tube Socks*
> https://www.vivatubes.com/matched-pair-of-tube-socks/



LOL!  And I'm pleased to see they chose the best background color possible.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> LOL!  And I'm pleased to see they chose the best background color possible.



Now the question is how long will it take for our old buddy Bangy to start selling knock-offs at 10x the price?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Joe Garfield said:


> I just ordered Vali 2, Mimby, and a Dutch Amperex Orange Globe 6DJ8 NOS tube =D. That tube seemed like a good place to start rolling.
> 
> Its for HD650 cans.


Good luck! Please tell us how you like it when it arrives!


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Now the question is how long will it take for our old buddy Bangy to start selling knock-offs at 10x the price?



But they'll be _worth_ 10x the price 'cause his sock's (sic) will be 'guaranteed to work excellent on your feet.'


----------



## Joe Garfield (Dec 21, 2019)

It sounds like a nice offer, but I’m really sensitive to left/right imbalance. What do they charge for compression matching?

I’m glad I found the right place. I was considering that ‘science’ site, but I subjectively believe there is more to life than plain white ankle socks.


----------



## Joe Garfield

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Good luck! Please tell us how you like it when it arrives!



I certainly will - I can hardly wait! I just got Modi/Magni last week. I’m curious if Vali can open up and smooth out Modi a little. Of my 3 DACs, Modi has the most detail and resolution when things get busy, but is also the brightest with the least amount of depth. That seems like a big task for a $150 amp with one low voltage tube, so I ordered Mimby to try as well. But I like the simplicity of Modi so we’ll see...

And of course I will compare tubes and report on what I find! After reading some of this thread I obviously want a CCa tube. I figure the NOS Dutch Amperex is sort of half way there, and a good way to see how much of a difference I’ll really perceive rolling tubes on this particular amp.


----------



## bibbs

...


----------



## bibbs

the Brimar tube arrived after a little confusion. its nothing like the one pictured on their website and indeed it does look like a rebranded black base USSR EH. i'm a bit disappointed TBH.

oohh well you live and learn.


----------



## Ripper2860

Sorry about that.  I believe the Brimar name was licenses out, butit was the name only.  I believe Mullard is actually is in the process of having its original designs and factory machinery and tools restored and placed back into service along with its name to manufacture and distribute original Mullard designs under the Mullard name.  I cannot recall where where Mullard will be reincarnated, but it may be in Russia, as well. 

Give the Russian 'Brimar' a try -- It may surprise you none-the-less.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Ripper2860 said:


> Sorry about that.  I believe the Brimar name was licenses out, butit was the name only.  I believe Mullard is actually is in the process of having its original designs and factory machinery and tools restored and placed back into service along with its name to manufacture and distribute original Mullard designs under the Mullard name.  I cannot recall where where Mullard will be reincarnated, but it may be in Russia, as well.
> 
> Give the Russian 'Brimar' a try -- It may surprise you none-the-less.


Actually, the Mullard name is part of New Sensor Corporation, as is Gold Lion. They are not going to be resurrected in any fashion. 

At this point Brimar remains an English Company based in the midlands. Presently, they are a paper company, rebranding and selling New Sensor products. They are in the process of refurbishing Mullard equipment to manufacture and sell tubes made in the midlands of England in the future. 

Please see the Great British valve project


----------



## Ripper2860

Thank you for the clarification.  I knew someone had purchased Mullard equipment with the intent of reviving the classic Birtish tube scene.  Just got my wires crossed a bit as to who and where.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

KoshNaranek said:


> Actually, the Mullard name is part of New Sensor Corporation, as is Gold Lion. They are not going to be resurrected in any fashion.
> 
> At this point Brimar remains an English Company based in the midlands. Presently, they are a paper company, rebranding and selling New Sensor products. They are in the process of refurbishing Mullard equipment to manufacture and sell tubes made in the midlands of England in the future.
> 
> Please see the Great British valve project


I am keeping my fingers crossed for their success. I'd like to see Brimar CV1988 - if it produces the same sound - for less than $100 or 200. 


KoshNaranek said:


> Actually, the Mullard name is part of New Sensor Corporation, as is Gold Lion. They are not going to be resurrected in any fashion.
> 
> At this point Brimar remains an English Company based in the midlands. Presently, they are a paper company, rebranding and selling New Sensor products. They are in the process of refurbishing Mullard equipment to manufacture and sell tubes made in the midlands of England in the future.
> 
> Please see the Great British valve project


I am keeping my fingers crossed for their success. I'd like to see Brimar CV1988 - if it produces the same sound - for less than $100 or 200.


----------



## Keno18

Been listening to Qobuz's hi-res stream using the HE4XX's and the Genelex Gold Lion 6922 in the Vali 2. I'm hooked. I really didn't think there was going to be much of a difference, but there is. BTW, Happy Holidays to all.


----------



## Keno18

Looks like Qobuz changed their pricing to stay competitive with Amazon. Studio quality up to 192 k is only  $14.99 a month! Down from  $24.99 a month! Didn't even know they changed. What a Christmas present!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Dec 25, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> Looks like Qobuz changed their pricing to stay competitive with Amazon. Studio quality up to 192 k is only  $14.99 a month! Down from  $24.99 a month! Didn't even know they changed. What a Christmas present!


Hm, I pay Amazon $12.99 for HD music. I liked Qobuz a lot.  Time to switch back, then. EDIT: No discounts for me in Belgium. Maybe I should re-register as a US client with a US bank account...


----------



## Joe Garfield (Dec 27, 2019)

I got Vali today. Here’s the tube that came with it. I don’t see any markings but maybe I don’t know where to look...

I’ve got maybe 90min on it so far. It seemed really wet, slow, bloomy and ‘tubey’ at first but seems to be tightening up a bit - actually maybe it’s my ears - some instruments in other tracks (piano, hand drums) kinda sound like crap  

I’ve got the Dutch Amperex due here around Saturday but now I’m wondering if I’ll like a German tube. But I’ll try give this one a bunch more time before making changes.


----------



## Joe Garfield

I let the amp play overnight while I slept. I still don't like the sound with stock tube at all - overall it's warm and wet, but there's too much mid color and too many details missing. Listening to 4 piece band (e. guitar, e. bass, piano, drums) the piano no longer sounds like a Yamaha (colored more dark) and is much harder to decipher from other instruments. Also things like hand drums lose detail - I hear the tone of the drum but loose the sound of the hand slapping. For certain pieces of music it's fun: acoustic jazz piano, where piano is the lead and is already a warm tone unlike a Yamaha, it sounds enjoyable. So I prefer the Magni at this point.

The Dutch Amperex (orange globe) is out for delivery - hopefully there will be a noticeable change and inspire me to try a more detailed tube. Otherwise I may be ordering another Magni.


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> I let the amp play overnight while I slept. I still don't like the sound with stock tube at all - overall it's warm and wet, but there's too much mid color and too many details missing. Listening to 4 piece band (e. guitar, e. bass, piano, drums) the piano no longer sounds like a Yamaha (colored more dark) and is much harder to decipher from other instruments. Also things like hand drums lose detail - I hear the tone of the drum but loose the sound of the hand slapping. For certain pieces of music it's fun: acoustic jazz piano, where piano is the lead and is already a warm tone unlike a Yamaha, it sounds enjoyable. So I prefer the Magni at this point.
> 
> The Dutch Amperex (orange globe) is out for delivery - hopefully there will be a noticeable change and inspire me to try a more detailed tube. Otherwise I may be ordering another Magni.



The tube you pictured previously looks very similar to the one that came with my Vali. Mine also without any visible exterior marking. I haven't spent any time researching it 'cause it was pretty meh sounding to my ears, but I suspect it's a US-made tube.  I'm afraid to be the potential bearer of bad news, but if you find the sound of the Vali to be too "wet" with that tube, the Amperex is going to drop you in the middle of the ocean with no life jacket. Not that the Amperex is a bad tube by any means -- it's actually an extremely good tube if it's truly a Dutch made version, but it's just warmer and even wetter than the stock tube.    Before you give up on the Vali altogether though, here's one that's certainly worth a try (short of using an adapter and going to a different tube type):



 

There's one seller offering singles:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6BQ7A-BRIM...439675&hash=item3d88bdade5:g:gJgAAOSwidpdemA2

And another offering pairs:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Matche...105074?hash=item547bd98232:g:5pQAAOSwt8Jd-qVL

I have never purchased anything from either, so caveat emptor. I see nothing that raises any red flags, but can't vouch for them either. Just FYI.


----------



## G0rt

bcowen said:


> The tube you pictured previously looks very similar to the one that came with my Vali. Mine also without any visible exterior marking. I haven't spent any time researching it 'cause it was pretty meh sounding to my ears, but I suspect it's a US-made tube.  I'm afraid to be the potential bearer of bad news, but if you find the sound of the Vali to be too "wet" with that tube, the Amperex is going to drop you in the middle of the ocean with no life jacket. Not that the Amperex is a bad tube by any means -- it's actually an extremely good tube if it's truly a Dutch made version, but it's just warmer and even wetter than the stock tube.    Before you give up on the Vali altogether though, here's one that's certainly worth a try (short of using an adapter and going to a different tube type):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've acquired 2 pairs from the second seller, and love the tubes in my Valhalla. I also inquired of the seller re vintage, and was told they were from the 60's. Very nice tubes indeed.


----------



## Keno18

I like the sound of the Gold Lion 6922. Is the Brimar something I should consider?


----------



## Joe Garfield (Dec 27, 2019)

Thanks, I was kind of figuring that. I'm curious to see if a little more detail in the lower mids would balance out the warmth for me (might be OK with warm, if there's not as much lack of detail.)

What adapter would I need for that tube? I didn't see 6dj8/6bq7a adapter in my search.

Would a German Siemens be in the same direction?


----------



## G0rt

Joe Garfield said:


> Thanks, I was kind of figuring that. I'm curious to see if a little more detail in the lower mids would balance out the warmth for me (might be OK with warm, if there's not as much lack of detail.)
> 
> What adapter would I need for that tube? I didn't see 6dj8/6bq7a adapter in my search.
> 
> Would a German Siemens be in the same direction?



No adapter needed, they're a direct cross for 6BZ7. I find Brimars very transparent in my other amps, but haven't had a chance to try them in my Vali2. Tomorrow...


----------



## Joe Garfield

Ah, thanks - yeah I glassed over the 'short of' part about needing an adapter     But def lmk what you find! And I'll try out the Amperex tonight.


----------



## G0rt

Joe Garfield said:


> Ah, thanks - yeah I glassed over the 'short of' part about needing an adapter     But def lmk what you find! And I'll try out the Amperex tonight.



I've actually got a Gold Lion in my Vali2, I just checked. Brimars in everything else, though.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 28, 2019)

+1 for Brimars.  I've never known a bad sounding NOS Brimar of any type.  Love them in my Valhalla 2 (it uses most of the same type of tubes as Vali 2).


----------



## Joe Garfield (Dec 28, 2019)

Holy Schiit - tube rolling is really a thing.

The Amperex is more musical, more detailed, and with more depth than the stock tube - granted it doesn’t have much time on it at all. It still has a bit more color than I’d like but all the other aspects are amazing. I honestly forgot I was listening with headphones for a minute - the HD650s have never had such good soundstage. With stock tube I didn’t enjoy Vali nearly as much as Magni, but with Amperex it’s definitely as fun, just with different strengths.


----------



## Joe Garfield (Dec 28, 2019)

Here’s the tube, from Viva tubes.com, “tested NOS”


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> I like the sound of the Gold Lion 6922. Is the Brimar something I should consider?



The reissued Gold Lion is a great sounding tube. They are my 2nd favorite (to date) in the Cary DAC although I've never tried the Brimars there. The Cary is a PITA to tube roll in as you have to remove the entire top cover to get to them. But in the Vali, the Brimar is a 'must try' up against the Gold Lion. Different sound, but mo' better sound to my ears.


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> Here’s the tube, from Viva tubes.com, “tested NOS”



That certainly looks like a genuine Dutch Amperex. The best sounding versions are the ones with the D shaped getter up top though.  Sorry...tube rolling is a disease with no known cure and/or end, so welcome to the nightmare.  Sure is fun though.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> The tube you pictured previously looks very similar to the one that came with my Vali. Mine also without any visible exterior marking. I haven't spent any time researching it 'cause it was pretty meh sounding to my ears, but I suspect it's a US-made tube.  I'm afraid to be the potential bearer of bad news, but if you find the sound of the Vali to be too "wet" with that tube, the Amperex is going to drop you in the middle of the ocean with no life jacket. Not that the Amperex is a bad tube by any means -- it's actually an extremely good tube if it's truly a Dutch made version, but it's just warmer and even wetter than the stock tube.    Before you give up on the Vali altogether though, here's one that's certainly worth a try (short of using an adapter and going to a different tube type):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A 6bq7/6bz7 that doesn't suck? Does such a thing even exists? That's like the mystical Tubicorn…
I still don't recall reading anything about folks trying different flavours of the stock tube. Somebody I talked to elsewhere felt they were prettty meh in general


----------



## Joe Garfield (Dec 28, 2019)

How do the Gold Lion and Brimar sound? I read in an earlier post that the German tubes are sort of ‘holographic and more analytical’ which might be just right for me.

That said, I’m really not disappointed at all with this Amperex tube - it actually sounds pretty amazing!


----------



## Joe Garfield (Dec 28, 2019)

I honestly can’t believe what’s happening - this is one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever heard. I honestly forgot I was listening to headphones until I saw my reflection in the mirror, lol. I can’t take them off - I even found a super long extension so I can wear them all over the house.

I’ve been listening mostly to live jazz (Monty Alexander): piano driven, lots of acoustic but some organ.. I generally dislike brass but what I’ve heard so far has been stunning. I can even hear Monty breathing between intricate phrases!

There was one time I got to hear a bunch of different headphones in a high end audio store. When I got to the last pair, the music transformed into an experience where I envisioned lights, colors, textures, even the thickness of the air all the way down to the singer’s hair product, the color of the sax player’s suit, and where on stage everyone was playing. My current setup isn’t to that level, but it’s at least to where my imagination is starting to ‘see things.’

The difference with this Amperex tube is some space and depth, but at the same time everything is extremely coherent and proportional. This is combined with Multibit which also helps open things up, and I think is what is needed to balance out the HD650s which don’t have much emphasis on soundstage.

I basically gave up on listening to music when it seemed like everything was going to lossy digital format (Beats headphones playing mp3 over old Bluetooth codec, and people rave about it?! yuk!) and the good stuff seemed astronomically priced. I’m blown away that we can have this kind of quality at this price that’s engineered and built by audiophiles in California! And, of course, thankful for these hi-if streaming services (Tidal is $5 for 5 months right now!)


----------



## Ripper2860

You have been assimilated.  Welcome and enjoy!!


----------



## Joe Garfield

Thanks! Yeah I think I can call it “good” and enjoy what I have for awhile =). At least with my work rig.


----------



## G0rt

Joe Garfield said:


> Thanks! Yeah I think I can call it “good” and enjoy what I have for awhile =). At least with my work rig.



Rather addictive, it is.

I cabled the Vali2 to a Gungnir Multibit today and tried one of the Brimar 6BQ7A, after having some familiar tracks with the Gold Lion.

I found the Brimar clearer, more detailed and engaging, with a broader, deeper and more coherent soundstage. Actually, I don't think my Vali2 has ever sounded so good.

The Brimar probably sounds different than your Amperex, better or not probably up to taste.

The only Amperex I have here right now is a French ECC40, for which I have a 6922 adapter incoming, but it sounds really good in Lyr3, on a 6SN7 adapter.

Addictive, it is...


----------



## bcowen (Dec 28, 2019)

Mr Trev said:


> A 6bq7/6bz7 that doesn't suck? Does such a thing even exists? That's like the mystical Tubicorn…
> I still don't recall reading anything about folks trying different flavours of the stock tube. Somebody I talked to elsewhere felt they were prettty meh in general



While it would be less painful to pound rusty nails into my eyes than agree with @Ripper2860 , I have no choice on the Brimars.   The 6BQ7's are all @johnjen 's fault. He asked if I had any recommendations for that tube type which I really didn't due to lack of experience, but then spied some CBS/Hytrons and the Brimars on Ebay for decent prices that I thought might be worth a try. He liked the CBS's better than what he had, but was even more impressed with the Brimars. So me being me, I had to get some to be sure I didn't miss out on the next big thing.  Substantial improvement over the (suspected) US-made tube I have, and really takes the Vali to another level.  It's not a tubey sounding tube and I wouldn't ever describe it as lush or warm (but the mids aren't bleached out by any means), the highs are very detailed without being hyped, and the bass is quick and well defined. If somebody was searching for a warm sounding tube I wouldn't suggest it to fit the bill, but if speed and resolution were the primary goals it's a nice choice.

My fave tubes in the Vali (as of December, 2019 ) are the Western Electric 396A and the 3-mica Foton 6N3P.  Adapter required, but both tubes use the same one. The Brimar gets close though, and for un-adaptered living is an easy recommendation.


----------



## bcowen

G0rt said:


> The only Amperex I have here right now is a French ECC40, for which I have a 6922 adapter incoming, but it sounds really good in Lyr3, on a 6SN7 adapter.



If you like the Amperex (Philips) ECC40, you definitely should try the Tungsram. 

I know, I'm evil.


----------



## G0rt

bcowen said:


> If you like the Amperex (Philips) ECC40, you definitely should try the Tungsram.
> 
> I know, I'm evil.



Funny you should mention...

I was actually testing a Tungsram ECC40 of unknown age/quality, and it had a really interesting deep, deep dark blackground for several hours, just before it failed. I may have to try Tungsram again.

Right now, distracted with other experiments, trying a new Raspberry Pi 4 as an alternate to my 3b music server. 

In theory, the new USB architecture should eliminate the usual load-related glitches, so USB may actually become usable for audio from the Pi4.


----------



## Keno18

Just bought a pair of the Brimars. Should be here by January 7th. Excited.


----------



## G0rt

Keno18 said:


> Just bought a pair of the Brimars. Should be here by January 7th. Excited.



They sound pretty good out of the box, but all mine needed 10+ hours to open up and really play well. It's not subtle, and if you're listening when it happens, people will wonder what you're grinning about.


----------



## Keno18

G0rt said:


> They sound pretty good out of the box, but all mine needed 10+ hours to open up and really play well. It's not subtle, and if you're listening when it happens, people will wonder what you're grinning about.


Now I really can't wait!


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> How do the Gold Lion and Brimar sound? I read in an earlier post that the German tubes are sort of ‘holographic and more analytical’ which might be just right for me.
> 
> That said, I’m really not disappointed at all with this Amperex tube - it actually sounds pretty amazing!



The reissued Gold Lions are made in Russia by New Sensor using the original GEC (England) designs and possibly tooling. The Brimars we're talking about were actually made in England, but not by GEC. Probably the most well known NOS 6922 type tubes that were made in Germany are Telefunken and Siemens. The 50's Telefunken 6DJ8's (less rugged 6922 but electrically similar) are some of my favorites of that tube type, but I wouldn't call them analytical really. Just very even from top to bottom with harmonic detailing that is hard to match. The Siemens, OTOH, could easily be described as analytical. It's been a while but I've had both 6922's and CCA's (an elite 6922) that were supremely fast and dynamic with awesome bass, but were also a bit lean in the mids for my tastes. But that's a personal preference thing which _always_ comes into play with tube choices -- lots of people consider them holy grail tubes. Problem is that any of the 50's or early 60's genuine Teles or Siemens will set you back at least what you paid for the Vali. They are becoming extremely scarce and the prices today reflect that. If you're enjoying the Amperex, stop now before it's too late....or am *I* too late?


----------



## bcowen

I realize this may be grounds to kick me out of the club, but I like living on the edge.   PSVane CV181T-II.  Been a very, very long time since I paid money for a Chinese tube. Tests very nicely...I'll let it simmer a bit tonight and give it a listen tomorrow. If it makes me smile in the Vali, it'll graduate to the Lyr shortly thereafter.


----------



## Joe Garfield (Dec 28, 2019)

Lol, IDK if you’re too late @bcowen . I just inquired about Siemens German 6DJ8 and 6922 but I haven’t bought anything yet. I’d be OK buying 1 more tube, just not sure if 6922 is worth 2x the cost of 6DJ8.

Yes I’m enjoying the Amperex. It’s really full and luscious, with great bass extension and soft silky highs. But it still seems like it’s missing some detail (at least compared to Magni) - the initial attack of acoustic guitar strings is missing, tambourines are not as noticeable, rhythm piano is sort of blended into the mix, e.g.


----------



## Mr Trev

Jeezumcripes…
I guess I better grab one of those Brimars now before you vultures pick the bay clean


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> Lol, IDK if you’re too late @bcowen . I just inquired about Siemens German 6DJ8 and 6922 but I haven’t bought anything yet. I’d be OK buying 1 more tube, just not sure if 6922 is worth 2x the cost of 6DJ8.
> 
> Yes I’m enjoying the Amperex. It’s really full and luscious, with great bass extension and soft silky highs. But it still seems like it’s missing some detail (at least compared to Magni) - the initial attack of acoustic guitar strings is missing, tambourines are not as noticeable, rhythm piano is sort of blended into the mix, e.g.



Here...found a good one for you:





LOL!  Not gonna happen in my world either.  

More seriously, if you want to try a Siemens look as well for a PCC88 (7DJ8).  They are a 7.6 volt heater tube but work just fine with a 6.3 volt circuit like in the Vali. They are not as searched for as the 6DJ8's/6922's and you might run across a much better deal and achieve the same sonic signature.


----------



## Joe Garfield (Dec 29, 2019)

Umm, idk what just happened....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Strong-SIEMENS-GOLD-PIN-Gray-Plate-O-Getter-E88CC-Tube-100-101/113854560826?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

That’s it - I’m not buying any more audio gear for the rest of this year.


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> That’s it - I’m not buying any more audio gear for the rest of this year.



ROFL!!   We'll check in with you again after this Tuesday.


----------



## KoshNaranek

bcowen said:


> The reissued Gold Lions are made in Russia by New Sensor using the original GEC (England) designs and possibly tooling. The Brimars we're talking about were actually made in England, but not by GEC. Probably the most well known NOS 6922 type tubes that were made in Germany are Telefunken and Siemens. The 50's Telefunken 6DJ8's (less rugged 6922 but electrically similar) are some of my favorites of that tube type, but I wouldn't call them analytical really. Just very even from top to bottom with harmonic detailing that is hard to match. The Siemens, OTOH, could easily be described as analytical. It's been a while but I've had both 6922's and CCA's (an elite 6922) that were supremely fast and dynamic with awesome bass, but were also a bit lean in the mids for my tastes. But that's a personal preference thing which _always_ comes into play with tube choices -- lots of people consider them holy grail tubes. Problem is that any of the 50's or early 60's genuine Teles or Siemens will set you back at least what you paid for the Vali. They are becoming extremely scarce and the prices today reflect that. If you're enjoying the Amperex, stop now before it's too late....or am *I* too late?


Sorry to contradict you sir, (I feel like the cat teaching the lion to roar) Gold Lion never made a 6922 varient before it was defuct and its name was purchased by New Sensor Corporation. Therefore, New Sensor cannot be using their tooling to make tubes in Russia. 6922 Gold Lion tubes are purely a new manufacture tube. They are makedly different from other New Sensor products, such as EH and Sovtek, but I have no idea of the provenance of the design.

Happy Final Day of Hanukkah.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 29, 2019)

KoshNaranek said:


> Sorry to contradict you sir, (I feel like the cat teaching the lion to roar) Gold Lion never made a 6922 varient before it was defuct and its name was purchased by New Sensor Corporation. Therefore, New Sensor cannot be using their tooling to make tubes in Russia. 6922 Gold Lion tubes are purely a new manufacture tube. They are makedly different from other New Sensor products, such as EH and Sovtek, but I have no idea of the provenance of the design.
> 
> Happy Final Day of Hanukkah.



I didn't know for sure on the tooling which is why I qualified that with a 'possibly.'  But I stand corrected on the rest.  I made an assumption (yeah, I know) based on the pair I have below. Didn't think to consider they might have been OEM'd for GEC which was a prolific practice back in the day. Now that I look at these more closely, the toppled triangle is a Philips Heerlen factory code, so although they are still very desirable tubes, they weren't actually made by GEC. Etched codes don't lie.    Thanks for clarifying things!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 29, 2019)

@bcowen  -- Yeah, Dumbass!!!  Geez Lousie -- even I knew that!!  

As your friend and in the interest of saving you from further embarrassment, please stick to fondling your tubes and let those that know what they are talking about post re: a tube's provenance.  I mean that in the most sincere and loving way possible.  

@KoshNaranek -- Way to school Bill and put him in his place.  Booyah!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen  -- Yeah, Dumbass!!!  Geez Lousie -- even I knew that!!
> 
> As your friend and in the interest of saving you from further embarrassment, please stick to fondling your tubes and let those that know what they are talking about post re: a tube's provenance.  I mean that in the most sincere and loving way imaginable.
> 
> @KoshNaranek -- Way to school Bill and put him in his place.  Booyah!!



Your understanding is appreciated, oh fledgling padawan.  

Yes, I should have known that:







But wait:





Heerlen is in Holland (or to be more current, the Netherlands). The etched code indicates these were made in 1960. So apparently the Netherlands were part of England in 1960.  Wonder if the Dutch people knew that?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 29, 2019)

I was gonna mention that Herleen was not in England, but you had already been sufficiently humiliated so I held back. See, I can be a nice guy.  

Seriously:  Seems you've acquired a BangyBang accidentally mislabeled tube.  Very collectible and should fetch at least 1/2 of what an intentionally mislabeled tube would list for -- which is still 8x times what a legit tube is actually worth on the open market.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 29, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> I was gonna mention that Herleen was not in England, but you had already been sufficiently humiliated so I held back. See, I can be a nice guy.



I didn't etch the code on the bottle or put the sticker on it. Therefore, I'm innocent (as usual) on that aspect and in a totally defensible position (as usually usual, recent events notwithstanding).  



Ripper2860 said:


> Seriously:  Seems you've acquired a BangyBang accidentally mislabeled tube.  Very collectible and should fetch at least 1/2 of what an intentionally mislabeled tube would list for -- which is still 8x times what a legit tube is actually worth on the open market.



I was never good at Texas math, so I'll just have to take your word for it.

Crap...


PS: Heerlen is in the Netherlands...what country is Herleen in?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 29, 2019)

Depends on where BangyBang parked their mobile Winnebago tube factory.

And if Ihave told you once I've told you a million times - you must carry the one.


----------



## Joe Garfield

For 'burn in' do I need to have music playing, or is the amp being powered on sufficient? The combination of new gear excitement and a general lack of patience does not pair well with tube rolling :/

The Amperex Orange Globe seems like it's cleaning up a bit - I don't feel like I'm losing quite as much detail. But I'm still really looking forward to the Siemens to hopefully get closer to Magni's resolution.


----------



## Keno18

Joe Garfield said:


> For 'burn in' do I need to have music playing, or is the amp being powered on sufficient? The combination of new gear excitement and a general lack of patience does not pair well with tube rolling :/
> 
> The Amperex Orange Globe seems like it's cleaning up a bit - I don't feel like I'm losing quite as much detail. But I'm still really looking forward to the Siemens to hopefully get closer to Magni's resolution.


I may get some flac for this but I feel the headphones used contribute to the loss or gain of detail. For about a week now I've been comparing the Massdrop /Sennheiser HD6XX against the Drop/Hifiman HE4XX. I've had the 6XX for about 1 1/2 years. The 4XX for about a week. Every time I go back and forth between the two the HE4XX seems to reveal more detail. I've read about Senns having what is referred to as the "Senheiser Veil". I didn't know what that meant until I heard the HE4XX. It's as if the 4XX uncovers another layer of the music. The HD6XX sounds very good but I keep wanting to go back to the HE4XX to hear more of the music. This is of course just my opinion and how I experience the two headphones. I'm expecting Brimar 6bq7s to arrive Thursday. I wonder how that will affect the outcome.


----------



## Joe Garfield

I'm curious to hear how the Brimar works for you, too - def keep us posted!

I just mean detail in comparison to Magni - same cans, same DAC, etc. Magni sounds incredibly detailed, but not as full. But I think the Amperex is warmed up enough that I can maybe take the Magni home and stop doing these comparisons


----------



## Keno18

Joe Garfield said:


> I'm curious to hear how the Brimar works for you, too - def keep us posted!
> 
> I just mean detail in comparison to Magni - same cans, same DAC, etc. Magni sounds incredibly detailed, but not as full. But I think the Amperex is warmed up enough that I can maybe take the Magni home and stop doing these comparisons


I had the Magni and Vali together for about a year until I sold the Magni. I don't remember feeling the two differed in detail but I clearly remember the Magni just not being "there" in the mid to lower registers. Something I was able to replicate time and again.


----------



## Joe Garfield (Dec 30, 2019)

Thanks! That’s encouraging. I think I just need more time on the tube then, and maybe to find the right tube for my ears. It might just be how the warm kids + HD650 miss interact with my ears. There’s plenty of detail with Magni so I’m pretty sure it’s not the cans. I just don’t/didn’t know if it’s the tube or topology.

Today came the point where Vali is on equal ground to Magni - whatever I feel I’m giving up in detail I’m gaining back in fullness, depth, and cohesiveness.


----------



## Keno18

Joe Garfield said:


> Thanks! That’s encouraging. I think I just need more time on the tube then, and maybe to find the right tube for my ears. It might just be how the warm kids + HD650 miss interact with my ears. There’s plenty of detail with Magni so I’m pretty sure it’s not the cans. I just don’t/didn’t know if it’s the tube or topology.
> 
> Today came the point where Vali is on equal ground to Magni - whatever I feel I’m giving up in detail I’m gaining back in fullness, depth, and cohesiveness.


I'm glad to hear you like the Vali that much. About 6 months ago I invested in an all  tube amp, the DarkVoice 336 which gave more fullness in the lower registers than the Vali. I thought then that I had made the right decision. Not knowing about other headphones I was ready to sell the Vali. Then I tried a planar headphone which will not work with the DarkVoice. It shined with the Vali. The Vali is an amazing amp as it works with a variety of cans.


----------



## tim0chan

Keno18 said:


> I may get some flac for this but I feel the headphones used contribute to the loss or gain of detail. For about a week now I've been comparing the Massdrop /Sennheiser HD6XX against the Drop/Hifiman HE4XX. I've had the 6XX for about 1 1/2 years. The 4XX for about a week. Every time I go back and forth between the two the HE4XX seems to reveal more detail. I've read about Senns having what is referred to as the "Senheiser Veil". I didn't know what that meant until I heard the HE4XX. It's as if the 4XX uncovers another layer of the music. The HD6XX sounds very good but I keep wanting to go back to the HE4XX to hear more of the music. This is of course just my opinion and how I experience the two headphones. I'm expecting Brimar 6bq7s to arrive Thursday. I wonder how that will affect the outcome.


I find it depends on the type of music. I like the 6xx more for vocals


----------



## Joe Garfield

Keno18 said:


> I'm glad to hear you like the Vali that much. About 6 months ago I invested in an all  tube amp, the DarkVoice 336 which gave more fullness in the lower registers than the Vali. I thought then that I had made the right decision. Not knowing about other headphones I was ready to sell the Vali. Then I tried a planar headphone which will not work with the DarkVoice. It shined with the Vali. The Vali is an amazing amp as it works with a variety of cans.



Good to know! I think next purchase might be Bottlehead Crack, but next cans probably Audeze. I was wondering how Magni and Vali might drive the planar magnetic.


----------



## tim0chan

Joe Garfield said:


> Good to know! I think next purchase might be Bottlehead Crack, but next cans probably Audeze. I was wondering how Magni and Vali might drive the planar magnetic.


Crack doesn't do well with planars tho, maybe the lyr 3 would be a more versatile choice?


----------



## Tom-s (Dec 31, 2019)

The Crack with HD650's, HD6xx, DT880 will be a perfect match actually. I've heard the S3X drive Audeze's 3's with very very good results.

The S3X is very versatile in it's own right. In my personal situation, i have one driving my living room speakers right now. It delivers every bit of oomph i need for a good NYE party.

Since you'll reading this thread, the worst advice i could give you is to buy a Crack. As it will open up another pandora's box of tube rolling options..

So that would be my advice, with your line-up of headphones. What Crack does to those Senn's! I use HD800's with it a lot.

It's not designed for planars, so don't try them. They are much too hungry for the Crack and don't pair well with an OTL's output impedance (you'll need for negative feedback to get them going  ).

The secret to Crack is it's super short signal path. No output transformers make for a lot less copper the signal needs to run trough.

The only capacitors in the signal path are the output capacitors and these contribute a lot to the sound signature.

And i'd recommend to get the speedball (CCS on the driver plate) installed. It just tops every cap coupled, resistor loaded similar OTL amp (like the darkvoice) for a "lower" price (on most occasions).

And for tube rolling. It's just as happy with 6SN7's as it is with 12AU7's. And if you think you've heard the best of 6SN7 there's 76, 6J5, 7193's etc and you'll have your mind blown by what this cute amp is capable off.

But, it has one downside, it can't roll E88CC's like the Vali 2.

O Schiit...  what has just landed on my desk (with 5670 adapter to make things worse)...


----------



## Paladin79

Tom-s said:


> The Crack with HD650's, HD6xx, DT880 will be a perfect match actually. I've heard the S3X drive Audeze's 3's with very very good results.
> 
> The S3X is very versatile in it's own right. In my personal situation, i have one driving my living room speakers right now. It delivers every bit of oomph i need for a good NYE party.
> 
> ...



I may have to check out  the tubes you mentioned as the best of the 6sn7's, the 76 and 7193.  6J5's, 7A4's, and most 6sn7 variations, I have.  I am in the process of building four identical OTL amps for blind testing 6sn7 equivalents and I want to be sure I do not leave any out.  When all are completed a cage will over said tubes so any variation can be concealed for said tests.
 I am using 6080 power tubes just like the Crack only the native driver tube is a 6sn7 instead of 12AU7.


----------



## bcowen

Tom-s said:


> The Crack with HD650's, HD6xx, DT880 will be a perfect match actually. I've heard the S3X drive Audeze's 3's with very very good results.
> 
> The S3X is very versatile in it's own right. In my personal situation, i have one driving my living room speakers right now. It delivers every bit of oomph i need for a good NYE party.
> 
> ...



I'm wondering why the 6CG7 / 6FQ7 hasn't seen much love in the Vali 2.  Just as a 7N7 is a 6SN7 with a loctal base, the 6CG7 is a 6SN7 in a 9 pin bottle. It even plugs directly into the Vali with no adapter. Yup, it has the higher 6SN7 heater current which is twice that of a 6922, but running the Vali 2 with a 6SN7 (adaptered) hasn't presented any problems I've ever heard about.  And 6CG7's are cheap still. The clear-top (side getter) RCA is a high performance-to-dollar ratio example.


----------



## exdmd

I have been through tube rolling nervosa with my Kenzie and got that out of my system. I don't get the appeal of spending hundreds of dollars on replacement tubes for a $149 amp when the money could be better put toward saving for a top of the line SET amp but whatever floats your boat.


----------



## bcowen

exdmd said:


> I have been through tube rolling nervosa with my Kenzie and got that out of my system. I don't get the appeal of spending hundreds of dollars on replacement tubes for a $149 amp when the money could be better put toward saving for a top of the line SET amp but whatever floats your boat.



As with all things audio, to each his own.


----------



## Mr Trev (Dec 31, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I realize this may be grounds to kick me out of the club, but I like living on the edge.   PSVane CV181T-II.  Been a very, very long time since I paid money for a Chinese tube. Tests very nicely...I'll let it simmer a bit tonight and give it a listen tomorrow. If it makes me smile in the Vali, it'll graduate to the Lyr shortly thereafter.



Hmmmm. I saw something that kinda looked like that in a "movie" once…

Why not this freaky looking light bulb type thing? https://www.amazon.ca/PSVANE-Vacuum-COSSOR-Electronic-1Piece/dp/B07Y7H4DKR



bcowen said:


> I'm wondering why the 6CG7 / 6FQ7 hasn't seen much love in the Vali 2.  Just as a 7N7 is a 6SN7 with a loctal base, the 6CG7 is a 6SN7 in a 9 pin bottle. It even plugs directly into the Vali with no adapter. Yup, it has the higher 6SN7 heater current which is twice that of a 6922, but running the Vali 2 with a 6SN7 (adaptered) hasn't presented any problems I've ever heard about.  And 6CG7's are cheap still. The clear-top (side getter) RCA is a high performance-to-dollar ratio example.



I keep meaning to check out some more flavours of these 6cg7. That cleartop is my favourite adapterless tube so far


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Hmmmm. I saw something that kinda looked like that in a "movie" once…
> 
> Why not this freaky looking light bulb type thing? https://www.amazon.ca/PSVANE-Vacuum-COSSOR-Electronic-1Piece/dp/B07Y7H4DKR



'Cause that's _super_ weird looking. I only like _sorta_ weird.  

The CV181 needs more time before I arrive at any final judgement on it.  So far, the highs are extremely nice -- extended, detailed, airy, and totally unfatiguing at even very loud levels. Nothing to fault in the mids, kind of a mid-hall perspective and good harmonics, not tubey sounding necessarily but not solid-scrapey by any means. Bass is extended and full, but is lacking some punch and slam. Hoping that improves with some more play time, but only time will tell. 



Mr Trev said:


> I keep meaning to check out some more flavours of these 6cg7. That cleartop is my favourite adapterless tube so far



I have some of those, some Amperex and Raytheons. I like the RCA best in the big rig's Alana preamp, but I haven't honestly given any of them a fair shot in the Vali (or the Lyr). Not enough time to listen to everything (the glass half-empty part of tube _collecting_).


----------



## exdmd

Tubemonger sells NOS 1960s Brimar Ediswan ECC88 for $40 that work very well in the Vali 2 keeping cost for the amp and replacement tube under $200. Significant improvement in soundstage for not much money.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> I realize this may be grounds to kick me out of the club, but I like living on the edge.   PSVane CV181T-II.  Been a very, very long time since I paid money for a Chinese tube. Tests very nicely...I'll let it simmer a bit tonight and give it a listen tomorrow. If it makes me smile in the Vali, it'll graduate to the Lyr shortly thereafter.


It’s... it’s beautiful ....


----------



## G0rt

ScubaMan2017 said:


> It’s... it’s beautiful ....



And clearly VERY happy to see him.


----------



## Keno18 (Jan 2, 2020)

Been listening to the Brimar 6bq7a for about 5 hours. First impressions are super wide soundstage, most detail in the high end yet, less bass than I am used to but I don't think I have given it enough time, mids very good, overall gives the impression of almost no distortion. On vocal jazz (Diana Krall) when I switched back to the Gold Lion her voice receded prompting me to go back to the Brimar.
Edit: Just compared it to the JJ 6sn7, at first the JJ sounded better  (more mid bass, bass). But as I was listening I felt something was missing. Narrower soundstage, less detail and ambience. Went back to the Brimar, it all came back. More immediate, live.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 2, 2020)

G0rt said:


> And clearly VERY happy to see him.



This one is even happier to see me. Or my wife, one.  Maybe let's not go there.    There must be something mystical with this particular 7N7 (the original Frankie), 'cause it and the Vali are like OMG x2. There is no way anything this inexpensive has any right to sound this good -- a B-stock Vali 2 for $110, a $27 adapter, and a $5 tube.  I need to do some more listening before I go on about it as impressions are based on very limited time and tracks...


----------



## Ripper2860

And I suspect more than a few beers.


----------



## G0rt

bcowen said:


> This one is even happier to see me. Or my wife, one.  Maybe let's not go there.    There must be something mystical with this particular 7N7 (the original Frankie), 'cause it and the Vali are like OMG x2. There is no way anything this inexpensive has any right to sound this good -- a B-stock Vali 2 for $110, a $27 adapter, and a $5 tube.  I need to do some more listening before I go on about it as impressions are based on very limited time and tracks...



Oooooo shiney! Guess I should get that adapter, just in case. I know I've got a stash of old loctals around here somewhere.

My ECC40/6922 adaptors arrived yesterday, so today rocking a pair of Philips/Chartres ECC40 in Mjolnir2, and rediscovering my LCD-3f. Looking forward to trying same in Vali2.

The Philips ECC40, and the Amperex-marked one, sound to my ears slightly top tilted, compared to the various Brimars, but a good complement to the LCD. Such luscious mids, though.


----------



## Ripper2860

@bcowen collects 'Fertility Amps' like some folks collect statues.  Me thinks he is trying to compensate for some type of personal shortcoming.


----------



## G0rt

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen collects 'Fertility Amps' like some folks collect statues.  Me thinks he is trying to compensate for some type of personal shortcoming.



ROFLMAO! 

Everybody needs an amplifier, sometimes...


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> This one is even happier to see me. Or my wife, one.  Maybe let's not go there.    There must be something mystical with this particular 7N7 (the original Frankie), 'cause it and the Vali are like OMG x2. There is no way anything this inexpensive has any right to sound this good -- a B-stock Vali 2 for $110, a $27 adapter, and a $5 tube.  I need to do some more listening before I go on about it as impressions are based on very limited time and tracks...


Yeah. Seconded. There are so many 6SN7 variants that work very well with Vali 2. Never found any noval that could deliver the same euphonic in Vali 2. For cans, my ears have not been happier with anything than AKG K702; I am now trying KOSS ESP 95X, need to break in a little...


----------



## bibbs

bcowen said:


> This one is even happier to see me. Or my wife, one.  Maybe let's not go there.    There must be something mystical with this particular 7N7 (the original Frankie), 'cause it and the Vali are like OMG x2. There is no way anything this inexpensive has any right to sound this good -- a B-stock Vali 2 for $110, a $27 adapter, and a $5 tube.  I need to do some more listening before I go on about it as impressions are based on very limited time and tracks...



looks just like a Telefunken U47


----------



## bcowen

G0rt said:


> Oooooo shiney! Guess I should get that adapter, just in case. I know I've got a stash of old loctals around here somewhere.
> 
> My ECC40/6922 adaptors arrived yesterday, so today rocking a pair of Philips/Chartres ECC40 in Mjolnir2, and rediscovering my LCD-3f. Looking forward to trying same in Vali2.
> 
> The Philips ECC40, and the Amperex-marked one, sound to my ears slightly top tilted, compared to the various Brimars, but a good complement to the LCD. Such luscious mids, though.



Must be a true Frankie. Any other 7N7 is just, well, another 7N7.  

@Deyan made that adapter for me -- truly nice work with a 1-piece housing and no need for a socket saver or extension. Plus the 7N7 socket itself is quite nice, and he wires directly from the socket to the pins (no crappy circuit board and hair-thin wires like the current offerings from China).  I've asked him to make another one for me with the smaller diameter part about 12mm shorter (so that the top part sits down much closer to the Vali's top cover). Once I get that, I'll be happy to make the one pictured available to fellow HeadFi'ers that would like to try it...just the cost of shipping to move it around to anyone that's interested. BYOT (that's Bring Your Own Tube). LOL! 

Have you tried a Tungsram ECC40 yet by chance?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> And I suspect more than a few beers.



I only drink fine wine. In fact, my favorite is named after you: Richard's Wild Irish Rose.  That's really good wine, right?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Yeah. Seconded. There are so many 6SN7 variants that work very well with Vali 2. Never found any noval that could deliver the same euphonic in Vali 2. For cans, my ears have not been happier with anything than AKG K702; I am now trying KOSS ESP 95X, need to break in a little...



Be very interested in your impressions of the Koss.  That's the Massdrop version, yes?


----------



## bcowen

bibbs said:


> looks just like a Telefunken U47



Slight difference in price, application, and connection, but other than those trivialities yeah it's *just* like it.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 3, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Be very interested in your impressions of the Koss.  That's the Massdrop version, yes?



Joshua Valour has a pretty good review on those.

(I think he is one of the better reviewers of HPs.)





bcowen said:


> I only drink fine wine. In fact, my favorite is named after you: Richard's Wild Irish Rose.  That's really good wine, right?



YES!!!  I see you've stepped up your 'Adult Beverage' game!!


----------



## G0rt

bcowen said:


> Must be a true Frankie. Any other 7N7 is just, well, another 7N7.
> 
> @Deyan made that adapter for me -- truly nice work with a 1-piece housing and no need for a socket saver or extension. Plus the 7N7 socket itself is quite nice, and he wires directly from the socket to the pins (no crappy circuit board and hair-thin wires like the current offerings from China).  I've asked him to make another one for me with the smaller diameter part about 12mm shorter (so that the top part sits down much closer to the Vali's top cover). Once I get that, I'll be happy to make the one pictured available to fellow HeadFi'ers that would like to try it...just the cost of shipping to move it around to anyone that's interested. BYOT (that's Bring Your Own Tube). LOL!
> 
> Have you tried a Tungsram ECC40 yet by chance?



I did try a Tungsram, but it must have been on it last legs, because it only perked a few hours before failing. 

It was good enough that I'm planning to try again with real NOS. I do like the Philips.


----------



## bibbs

bcowen said:


> Slight difference in price, application, and connection, but other than those trivialities yeah it's *just* like it.



i had just been listening to Zappa.. "it looks just like a telefunken u47"... "with leather". seen the tube and thought ermm yup..


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 3, 2020)

I received 2x Tungsram ECC40s today.  Just waiting for Deyan's ECC40 rimlock to 6SN7 adapter to give them a try!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> YES!!!  I see you've stepped up your 'Adult Beverage' game!!



It was time to expand my palate and divert from my mainstay MD 20/20.  The Richard's is just as I expected -- rather sour, decidedly plebeian, totally unrefined and lacking any notable redeeming qualities.  Just coincidence, I guess.


----------



## Keno18

The Brimar just kicked in, top end smoothed out a touch and the bass is back. Mids came up. Sounds great with orchestral or vocal jazz music. Still has that crystal clear quality. Oh those cymbals at the end of the Organ Symphony.


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> The Brimar just kicked in, top end smoothed out a touch and the bass is back. Mids came up. Sounds great with orchestral or vocal jazz music. Still has that crystal clear quality. Oh those cymbals at the end of the Organ Symphony.



And somebody (don't remember who...wasn't me) remarked in the past that *all* 6BQ7's were meh.  They obviously never tried a Brimar.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> It was time to expand my palate and divert from my mainstay MD 20/20.  The Richard's is just as I expected -- rather sour, decidedly plebeian, totally unrefined and lacking any notable redeeming qualities.  Just coincidence, I guess.



True -- but it does put lead in your pencil and hair on your chest!!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jan 4, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Be very interested in your impressions of the Koss.  That's the Massdrop version, yes?


It is indeed. When it dropped to $400 I could not resist.

I am trying them with aune t1 Mk3 DAC, with two Sylvania VT-192, on to Vali 2 with RCA 6SN7 Grey Glass, and from Vali 2 RCA out to E90 energiser's RCA in.

So far, KOSS ESP-95X sound very transparent and fast, but the tonal balance does not compare with my K702 which I like better so far. But ESP-95X seem to be settling down. Let us give them more time...

EDIT: Dusted Modi MB, and connected E90 to Modi's RCA. Hm. Better than aune+Vali 2 for Koss ESP-950? Seems so: a step in the right direction!


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> It is indeed. When it dropped to $400 I could not resist.
> 
> I am trying them with aune t1 Mk3 DAC, with two Sylvania VT-192, on to Vali 2 with RCA 6SN7 Grey Glass, and from Vali 2 RCA out to E90 energiser's RCA in.
> 
> ...



Give 'em about 24 hours of Marilyn Manson at 100 dB's and they'll be ready.  Perhaps don't put them on your head during that...


----------



## bcowen

My guinea piggin' for this week.  Unfortunately I'm still waiting on the adapter...


----------



## Joe Garfield

My Siemens tube doesn’t work - only left channel plays. If I tap it, the right channel pops. 

Good thing for eBay return policy!


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> My Siemens tube doesn’t work - only left channel plays. If I tap it, the right channel pops.
> 
> Good thing for eBay return policy!



Bummer, man. That was a really nice looking tube from the listing. Hopefully the seller will refund your money quickly. Ebay will too, it just takes a while if you have to go that route.

Here's a pair that came from Upscale Audio, so as long as the seller isn't switching boxes they've been well tested. Current bid is at $8.50, but 2 days left to go....and they won't end up at that price.  Still maybe worth giving it a try:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...074388&hash=item3fd6505816:g:ONoAAOSwHfxeDSRA

And there's more of the Brimar 6BQ7's available. Seems there are several of us that really like this tube, and the pair I got from this seller test very nicely:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Matche...370507?hash=item54733908cb:g:0wEAAOSwOTZdO5Hy


----------



## Joe Garfield

LOL. I started the return and the seller is accusing me of buying the wrong tube (you must have meant to buy a 6DHJ8 or ECC88, not this E88CC), then saying I must have broke it. But the return is already started so whatever. This whole ‘star seller’ or whatever its called on eBay is BS - there’s a million good reviews because it’s setup such that you can’t really leave anything but - or so it seems to me.


----------



## bibbs

this little amp loves vinyl.

still got a bit of work to do to the Systemdek. it might be the beer but this thing is amazing for the money.

could do with more ooomph though.

systemdek iix rega rb250 with michell technoweight and denon dl301mk2, schiit mani, schiit vali2, beyer dt880's.

listening to daft punk ram.

wish my converter would hurry up so i can plug the brimar in. but the stock valve is well tamed with vinyl.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> It is indeed. When it dropped to $400 I could not resist.
> 
> I am trying them with aune t1 Mk3 DAC, with two Sylvania VT-192, on to Vali 2 with RCA 6SN7 Grey Glass, and from Vali 2 RCA out to E90 amp's RCA in.
> 
> ...



Koss Massdrop ESP-95X are extremely good HP. They work OK with Modi MB. If I did not have my main setup, I would think this was an amazing HP. In some individual qualities, Koss surpasses my setup: maybe faster, maybe more transparent. In simple recordings, such as voice with several instruments, it sounds awesome... until I switch to my aune/vali/K702. I must have been lucky to stumble and arrive at a system that sounds extremely realistic, engaging, balanced and euphonic to me. I do not miss anything in this sound signature. All it needs is appropriate tubes, and I have enough of them now. Have I become a slave of my system, good becoming an enemy of better? Perhaps. 

Is there a way to bring Koss ESP-95X to the same overall satisfaction? Perhaps there is. I have read reviews and opinions. Change earpads, buy a Stax amp instead of E90, look for a better match in DAC... Will I? No. I will keep them and occasionally experiment for their place in my current system. I will let you know if I find it.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Have I become a slave of my system, good becoming an enemy of better? Perhaps.



I would have to argue -- not in opposition but just from another perspective -- that 'good' is what's better if it's more satisfying and enjoyable to you.

I'm weird of course, so that's as FWIW as you can get.  

Thanks for sharing your impressions on the Stax. I've never heard any, but have been curious. Are you confident they are fully broken-in?  My new Aeon 2's were causing me some consternation because they just didn't have the macrodynamic swings that I wanted (or got out of the Aeon 1's). That finally came around and developed very nicely, but I'm guessing it was in excess of 100 hours before they got there.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I would have to argue -- not in opposition but just from another perspective -- that 'good' is what's better if it's more satisfying and enjoyable to you.
> 
> I'm weird of course, so that's as FWIW as you can get.
> 
> Thanks for sharing your impressions on the Stax. I've never heard any, but have been curious. Are you confident they are fully broken-in?  My new Aeon 2's were causing me some consternation because they just didn't have the macrodynamic swings that I wanted (or got out of the Aeon 1's). That finally came around and developed very nicely, but I'm guessing it was in excess of 100 hours before they got there.



How's the Vali treat them AFC2s? I've been tempted to get the original since I first read the reviews… now there's a better one


----------



## Shane D

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Koss Massdrop ESP-95X are extremely good HP. They work OK with Modi MB. If I did not have my main setup, I would think this was an amazing HP. In some individual qualities, Koss surpasses my setup: maybe faster, maybe more transparent. In simple recordings, such as voice with several instruments, it sounds awesome... until I switch to my aune/vali/K702. I must have been lucky to stumble and arrive at a system that sounds extremely realistic, engaging, balanced and euphonic to me. I do not miss anything in this sound signature. All it needs is appropriate tubes, and I have enough of them now. Have I become a slave of my system, good becoming an enemy of better? Perhaps.
> 
> Is there a way to bring Koss ESP-95X to the same overall satisfaction? Perhaps there is. I have read reviews and opinions. Change earpads, buy a Stax amp instead of E90, look for a better match in DAC... Will I? No. I will keep them and occasionally experiment for their place in my current system. I will let you know if I find it.



Please try EQ'ing with the Koss system. My Schiit Loki makes them a keeper in my system for the long term.

Shane D


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Shane D said:


> Please try EQ'ing with the Koss system. My Schiit Loki makes them a keeper in my system for the long term.
> 
> Shane D


Thank you for sharing your experience. I would need 2 Loki minis: one for each channel. That is very tempting: both of my ears suffer from different hearing loss. So far my brain managed to overcome this without EQ. I am concerned that each piece of music will call for slightly different EQ, and there will be no end in adjusting and readjusting. Now I can just listen to music. Just saying.


----------



## Shane D

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thank you for sharing your experience. I would need 2 Loki minis: one for each channel. That is very tempting: both of my ears suffer from different hearing loss. So far my brain managed to overcome this without EQ. I am concerned that each piece of music will call for slightly different EQ, and there will be no end in adjusting and readjusting. Now I can just listen to music. Just saying.



Since the E95X has left and right volume, couldn't you use just one EQ and separate the volumes?

Or is the situation where each ear hears differently, not just volume wise?

Shane D


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Shane D said:


> Since the E95X has left and right volume, couldn't you use just one EQ and separate the volumes?
> 
> Or is the situation where each ear hears differently, not just volume wise?
> 
> Shane D



 it is. I quite like the twin pots (as plural of pot) on E95X, but that's skating on a thin ice for me


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> How's the Vali treat them AFC2s? I've been tempted to get the original since I first read the reviews… now there's a better one



The Vali is surprising me to no end with the AFC2's. The Aeon's very low impedance (13 ohms) coupled with their low-ish sensitivity make them a bit of a challenge for an amp. The Lyr 3 (at 9+ watts into 13 ohms) has more than enough grunt to whip them around like a rag doll, but I was concerned that even with the 1+ watt the Vali could push into that load it wouldn't be enough....or enough to fully flesh out what the Aeons can do.  My concerns were misplaced.  Using high gain (haven't tried low gain) the Vali has plenty of oomph to make the Aeons sing. Yeah the Lyr 3 is better overall (at 3x+ the price it would be a real shame if it wasn't), but it's not just because it has more power.  I know you guys are probably well past tired of hearing about the Frankie, but I have to say that it is a particularly synergistic match with the Vali. Or the Aeons. Or my ears. Or probably some combination thereof...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 5, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I know you guys are probably well past tired of hearing about the Frankie, but



*OMG!  YES, WE ARE!!!!*   Geez -- why don't you and Frankie just get a room already??!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> *OMG.  YES WE ARE!!!!*   Geez -- why don't you and Frankie just get a room already!!



So...I'm guessing you didn't like the shorted-out GE's I sent you for Christmas?  Please try to remember it's the thought that counts.


----------



## Ripper2860

Those were shorted out tubes?  I was wondering why every time I plugged them into the Christmas lights the strand quit lighting up.


----------



## G0rt

bcowen said:


> So...I'm guessing you didn't like the shorted-out GE's I sent you for Christmas?  Please try to remember it's the thought that counts.



GE's sound better shorted, yes?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Those were shorted out tubes?  I was wondering why every time I plugged them into the Christmas lights the strand quit lighting up.



If it helps any, I've found almost no discernable sonic difference between a GE with a dead short and one without. Your amp may balk at a shorted one, but it won't sound any worse.


----------



## bcowen

G0rt said:


> GE's sound better shorted, yes?



I've heard reports that silence sounds better than a GE, so in effect, yes.


----------



## G0rt

bcowen said:


> I've heard reports that silence sounds better than a GE, so in effect, yes.



Good to know my investment in shorted GE's is well placed.


----------



## bibbs

Adaptor arrived, plugged the Brimar in and i must say its nice. ok so not a giant leap forward in sound Q but its smooth, open but a bit woolly in the bass. gone is the shrill top end which works very well with the beyers. suits vinyl very well.

my only gripe is there is not enough wallop even at max volume, in fact the Vali and the Mani are both maxed out using the denon 301mk2.


----------



## bcowen

bibbs said:


> Adaptor arrived, plugged the Brimar in and i must say its nice. ok so not a giant leap forward in sound Q but its smooth, open but a bit woolly in the bass. gone is the shrill top end which works very well with the beyers. suits vinyl very well.
> 
> my only gripe is there is not enough wallop even at max volume, in fact the Vali and the Mani are both maxed out using the denon 301mk2.



While the tube certainly affects the final presentation, you have a bigger problem unless you've already addressed it. Your Denon has an output impedance of 33 ohms, and the Mani presents a 47 ohm load to it (if set as recommended for an MC cartridge).  While final loading values are best set by ear, a general rule of thumb for an MC cartridge is the load impedance (Mani) should be around 10x the cartridge's output impedance, or around 330 ohms in your setup. You're running the cartridge relatively unloaded, and while that won't cause any harm to anything you'll get frequency response aberrations. If the loading is too low, guess what?  Wimpy and/or ill-defined bass (generally speaking). If it's too high you usually get a rolled off treble and a sound that is dull and lifeless.  If you're using the 47 ohm load, try switching to the 47k load setting. That's way too high, but it'll give you an idea of the sonic changes that loading can bring about (and no animals will be harmed in the process).  

I haven't heard the Mani, but it appears to fall along the same lines as all other Schiit -- very high value for the dollar and great sonics for the money. But for $129 you can't have it all, and adjustable loading is one of those things that didn't make the cut.  Proper loading won't have much (if any) effect on the overall loudness capability, but if you're cranking things to the max just to get some wallop in the bass (and wouldn't otherwise listen at those levels), getting the loading right may put a smile on your face. Fortunately there is an inexpensive (if inelegant) solution: adding some parallel resistance via splitters. MC cartridges have very low inductance so you don't need to worry about capacitive loading which would complicate things -- you just need some resistance. Using two of the splitters exampled below (1 per channel) you'd add the correct value resistor into an RCA plug and put it in one of the female jacks, plug your tonearm cable into the other female jack, and then plug the male end into the Mani. You can enclose the resistor in the outer shell of the RCA plug so it isn't quite as ugly (or fragile) as shown below. You'd want a good quality film resistor in the 330 ohm - 350 ohm range, as that in parallel with the 47k load setting on the Mani would get you in the 330 ohm range needed to hit that 10x value. Just remember if you use something like this you'd want the 47k Mani load setting...adding a 330 ohm resistor in conjunction with the 47 ohm setting would make things even worse (you'd get less than 47 ohms).


----------



## Joe Garfield

I'm thinking of making something like that (well not exactly) so I can turn up my Vali a little more. On either gain setting my listening level is 9:00 or lower with HD650s and there's channel imbalance below 8:00, plus I like the sound on high gain better.


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> I'm thinking of making something like that (well not exactly) so I can turn up my Vali a little more. On either gain setting my listening level is 9:00 or lower with HD650s and there's channel imbalance below 8:00, plus I like the sound on high gain better.



I like the high gain on both the Vali2 and the Lyr3. Both can play the Aeons as loud as I want to listen in low gain, but like you I just prefer the high gain. Seems more dynamic and hits harder in the bass. Fortunately with the Aeon's load I'm up around 10:00 on the Lyr and around 11:00 on the Vali for most listening, so I'm pretty well out of that imbalance region that most reasonably-priced pots suffer from.


----------



## KoshNaranek

You have entered the Twilight Zone. The Intersection of Mullard Valves and Dr Who (John Pertwee)


----------



## Joe Garfield (Jan 7, 2020)

I just ordered NOS Siemens and Valvo 6BK7B tubes. 6BK7 is supposed to be interchangeable with 6BZ7 which is what Schiit provides for the Vali. (Maybe 6BZ7 is why the amp doesn't sound great as shipped? lol)

I was wondering if anyone has longish term success running 6N1P? Schiit said in another forum that the heater current is (but barely) within spec of the rest of the components. Some sites (including a Russian 6N1P spec) claim that 6N1P is a direct replacement for 6DJ8 besides the increased heater current (600mA vs 365mA.)


----------



## Keno18

Joe Garfield said:


> I just ordered NOS Siemens and Valvo 6BK7B tubes. 6BK7 is supposed to be interchangeable with 6BZ7 which is what Schiit provides for the Vali. (Maybe 6BZ7 is why the amp doesn't sound great as shipped? lol)
> 
> I was wondering if anyone has longish term success running 6N1P? Schiit said in another forum that the heater current is (but barely) within spec of the rest of the components. Some sites (including a Russian 6N1P spec) claim that 6N1P is a direct replacement for 6DJ8 besides the increased heater current (600mA vs 365mA.)


I don't have experience with the 6N1P per se but the 6sn7 draws the same current and have been running that on the Vali for over a year with no ill effects.


----------



## Ripper2860

6N1P are the stock driver tubes in Valhalla 2 and is a suitable sub for 6922 and 6DJ8, so should be no worries.


----------



## Joe Garfield

Thanks guys!


----------



## Kevwheez

Good day to all on this thread!

I have recently assembled a nice setup in our finished basement that I'm calling my "Mid-fi listening room". A pair of Klipsch 'the Sixes' speakers with a Klipsch 10" sub, an Audio Technica AT-LP120XUSB table, a set of Sennheiser 660S phones, and the stack of Schiit I show in my attached pic...






I have only read through page 117 of this thread thus far, but couldn't wait any longer to thank (I think!? LOL) everyone for their wonderful and informative contributions, advice and experiences in the "tube rolling" adventure! I have never owned a tube amp before, and find it a fascinating new element in my home audio collection. I actually had no real intention of rolling tubes when I purchased these little guys about 2-3 months ago, but have (scarily enough) already collected the following...

Matsuschitta/National PCC88/7DJ8
Tesla nos E88CC
EH 6922
Philips nos PCC88/7DJ8
EH 6CG7
PCC88/7DJ8 (Yugoslavia designation)
Russian 6N3P-E
Voskhod 6N1P-EV
Novosibirsk 6N1P-EV
Voskhod Rocket 6N2P-EV
Western Electric 396A 2C51 D-getter (date code 6026)
Russian 6SN7 Foton (1967 year)
Tung Sol mouse ear (1953 year)

I am having a blast changing these up/burning them in and enjoying the sound differences, etc. I wanted to let everyone know how much I appreciate the wonderful amount of information I have found thus far (and I'm not even 1/2 way through this thread!

A couple questions though for anyone that might be able to answer:
A.) Do I need any adapter for the Western Electric tube? I am sure it has been mentioned in the multitude of pages, but I can't remember off the top of my head.
B.) I actually purchased the Tung-Sol tube just this morning, but noticed it is a 12SN7 and not the 6SN7 - I assume I messed up, yes?

Again; I SO enjoy reading through and learning about this wonderful "addiction", and look to contribute much more as time goes on!

Cheers,
Kev


----------



## Keno18

Kevwheez said:


> Good day to all on this thread!
> 
> I have recently assembled a nice setup in our finished basement that I'm calling my "Mid-fi listening room". A pair of Klipsch 'the Sixes' speakers with a Klipsch 10" sub, an Audio Technica AT-LP120XUSB table, a set of Sennheiser 660S phones, and the stack of Schiit I show in my attached pic...
> 
> ...


Nice collection. The WE396A  does need an adapter and the 12sn7 will not work.


----------



## Kevwheez

Keno18 said:


> Nice collection. The WE396A  does need an adapter and the 12sn7 will not work.



Thanks, Keno - what adapter does the 396A need? I already purchased a socket saver and the adapter for the 6N3 tubes, but couldn't remember what one the WE tube took.


----------



## Keno18

Kevwheez said:


> Thanks, Keno - what adapter does the 396A need? I already purchased a socket saver and the adapter for the 6N3 tubes, but couldn't remember what one the WE tube took.


Looking at the adapters on eBay the 6n3 adapter should work. I don't have direct experience with the 6n3 but I do have a 5670 adapter that lists the 6n3 as compatible.


----------



## Mr Trev

Kevwheez said:


> Thanks, Keno - what adapter does the 396A need? I already purchased a socket saver and the adapter for the 6N3 tubes, but couldn't remember what one the WE tube took.





Keno18 said:


> Looking at the adapters on eBay the 6n3 adapter should work. I don't have direct experience with the 6n3 but I do have a 5670 adapter that lists the 6n3 as compatible.



Indeed, the same adapter will work for both 6n3 and 5670/2c51/396a type tubes


----------



## Kevwheez

Mr Trev said:


> Indeed, the same adapter will work for both 6n3 and 5670/2c51/396a type tubes



Sweet! Good to know; many thanks guys!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Kevwheez said:


> Good day to all on this thread!
> 
> I have recently assembled a nice setup in our finished basement that I'm calling my "Mid-fi listening room". A pair of Klipsch 'the Sixes' speakers with a Klipsch 10" sub, an Audio Technica AT-LP120XUSB table, a set of Sennheiser 660S phones, and the stack of Schiit I show in my attached pic...
> 
> ...


Wow, what a stack!. You went for all the small Schiit in one go! Congratulations, and welcome! You will probably get all the other kind of shiit from us gradually. You may make your own mistakes (I did). Have a look at my signature. I am enjoying it enormously. Enjoy, too! WE396A was the first tube in Vali 2 I really liked, with mouse ears the second.


----------



## Kevwheez

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Wow, what a stack!. You went for all the small Schiit in one go! Congratulations, and welcome! You will probably get all the other kind of shiit from us gradually. You may make your own mistakes (I did). Have a look at my signature. I am enjoying it enormously. Enjoy, too! WE396A was the first tube in Vali 2 I really liked, with mouse ears the second.



Thanks, Donkey!

Yeah, the Schiit stuff is so affordably priced and I seemed to need all the components to allow the use of the turntable/streaming/switching sources, etc. They have been great thus far and I love the look. I purchased that WE396A tube, but it hasn't arrived, so excited about it! And you saw my goof on the mouse ear tube!  I actually just PM'd a member here about one they have for sale (the correct one! LOL) so hopefully I get one of those soon as well.
I have to say, a lot of those tubes being only 10-20 bucks each and only one or two nearer to $50 makes the experimentation easy to do and real fun. Nice to be chatting with some of the regulars I've seen on this thread that have helped me so much in my education on this!

Cheers,
kev


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jan 8, 2020)

Kevwheez said:


> Thanks, Donkey!
> 
> Yeah, the Schiit stuff is so affordably priced and I seemed to need all the components to allow the use of the turntable/streaming/switching sources, etc. They have been great thus far and I love the look. I purchased that WE396A tube, but it hasn't arrived, so excited about it! And you saw my goof on the mouse ear tube!  I actually just PM'd a member here about one they have for sale (the correct one! LOL) so hopefully I get one of those soon as well.
> I have to say, a lot of those tubes being only 10-20 bucks each and only one or two nearer to $50 makes the experimentation easy to do and real fun. Nice to be chatting with some of the regulars I've seen on this thread that have helped me so much in my education on this!
> ...


Yeah, well, do not worry about mistakes. I have bought lots of well-priced tubes and quite some above $50. Lost count, but surely I have paid for the tubes and adapters for Vali 2 alone ca. $3,000 in one year. Money well spent, even if 75% of the tubes will never go into any socket again - I learned so much about what I like hearing, and what delivers it. The 3 tubes in my system I have not bothered swapping for 2 months cost me $5 each, and I have enough of the reserves of them for my life. I just stuck a new Ken-Rad black glass staggered plates VT231 into my Vali 2 to replace RCA VT231 Grey Glass (I have 6 of those, paid less than $10 average). I paid $80 for this Ken-Rad, and it is magical to my ears, slightly better than RCA Grey Glass. Need to compare to my holy grail Brimar CV1988 which costs hundreds nowadays. Will I buy more of them? No. I have about 20 makes, 50+ pieces of 6SN7/6C8G/7N7/6J5/7A4 tubes which are all awesome for my ears in Vali 2. I am so grateful to people in this thread who guided me - a complete layman - along. Stay with us, there is tons of goodwill and competence around, and shared so eagerly.


----------



## G0rt

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Yeah, well, do not worry about mistakes. I have bought lots of well-priced tubes and quite some above $50. Lost count, but surely I have paid for the tubes and adapters for Vali 2 alone ca. $3,000 in one year. Money well spent, even if 75% of the tubes will never go into any socket again - I learned so much about what I like hearing, and what delivers it. The 3 tubes in my system I have not bothered swapping for 2 months cost me $5 each, and I have enough of the reserves of them for my life. I just stuck a new Ken-Rad black glass staggered plates VT231 into my Vali 2 to replace RCA VT231 Grey Glass (I have 6 of those, paid less than $10 average). I paid $80 for this Ken-Rad, and it is magical to my ears, slightly better than RCA Grey Glass. Need to compare to my holy grail Brimar CV1988 which costs hundreds nowadays. Will I buy more of them? No. I have about 20 makes, 50+ pieces of 6SN7/6C8G/7N7/6J5/7A4 tubes which are all awesome for my ears in Vali 2. I am so grateful to people in this thread who guided me - a complete layman - along. Stay with us, there is tons of goodwill and competence around, and shared so eagerly.


----------



## Kevwheez

G0rt said:


>



Awesome!! (I HOPE I don't make that many missteps - my marriage would never survive it!)


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 8, 2020)

G0rt said:


>



Now I know what to do with some of my dud tubes lol. I bought a bunch of them to use in headphone racks I was building but I like that concept. I have played some semi-serious chess in the past and if I walked into the tourney with that I would most likely be booted out but It would look cool sitting there lol. I doubt I could have the tubes light up like my headphone stands but otherwise that is very doable. I have a whole bunch of GE tubes I went through trying to find the best one I could send to @bcowen for a 6sn7 tube challenge and I need to use them somewhere lol. I do not exactly install them in amps.


----------



## G0rt

Kevwheez said:


> Awesome!! (I HOPE I don't make that many missteps - my marriage would never survive it!)



Saw that on FB the other day and almost dropped my taco.

What really blows my mind is that they're all socketed.


----------



## Paladin79

G0rt said:


> Saw that on FB the other day and almost dropped my taco.
> 
> What really blows my mind is that they're all socketed.


I would spend more on sockets than tubes. You can buy dud tubes by the pound but some of the folks do not test them. I got several decent black glass tubes cause I told one guy I liked the looks of them best.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I would spend more on sockets than tubes. You can buy dud tubes by the pound but some of the folks do not test them. I got several decent black glass tubes cause I told one guy I liked the looks of them best.


Be careful. Preferring tubes by color may be misinterpreted. I always refer to sonic character, or plates - safer, what?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 8, 2020)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Be careful. Preferring tubes by color may be misinterpreted. I always refer to sonic character, or plates - safer, what?


Have you bought or owned black glass or grey glass tubes? Generally they are WW 2 vintage and many are exceptional and sought after for sonic quality. I refer to nothing else. With this style of tube it is unusual to see plates, or getter holder. You might see the top mica.


----------



## bcowen

G0rt said:


>



Now I just absolutely *love* that!  One side should be all GE tubes, and the other side good sounding tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have a whole bunch of GE tubes I went through trying to find the best one...



Hmmm...isn't that like visiting all the inmates on death row trying to find the friendliest one?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Have you bought or owned black glass or grey glass tubes? Generally they are WW 2 vintage and many are exceptional and sought after for sonic quality. I refer to nothing else. With this style of tube it is unusual to see plates, or getter holder. You might see the top mica.


I have several smoked glass tubes that sound good to me. Ken-Rad and RCA.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 9, 2020)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I have several smoked glass tubes that sound good to me. Ken-Rad and RCA.


When you get into the black glass versions they might be more expensive because of rarity, I am not sure. I have owned the black glass RCA and the bass was nearly too much for a couple of my amps so I gave it away. I have heard various theories on the dark materials helping the tube's operation and the theory that for war time use they did not want a lot of light escaping if used in radios in the field. I know some of the modern Chinese tubes use an internal coating but I have never researched it much.

Earlier I was merely saying when buying tubes by the pound I got plenty of working tubes so I thought it might way to get some of the 1940's RCA's and Ken-Rads pretty cheap and I accomplished this lol. I was not about to say some could be worth $100 each so I merely said I liked the looks of them in my headphone rack builds.  I also mentioned I liked the ST power tubes and got several RCA 6AS6G's that tested fine as well.


----------



## Kevwheez

Quick question; So as I try to round out my initial collection of different/odd tubes to give a "rolling through", will those larger Amperex 6AS7G tubes work in the Vali with an adapter? And if so, I'm assuming it would be the same adapter that allows it to run the 6SN7 tubes? (or is my brain mush this morning?)

Thanks in advance for the answer!

Cheers,
Kev


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 9, 2020)

Kevwheez said:


> Quick question; So as I try to round out my initial collection of different/odd tubes to give a "rolling through", will those larger Amperex 6AS7G tubes work in the Vali with an adapter? And if so, I'm assuming it would be the same adapter that allows it to run the 6SN7 tubes? (or is my brain mush this morning?)
> 
> Thanks in advance for the answer!
> 
> ...


No, the filament current might support a 6sn7 but not a power tube. I say this without looking up the specs.

I talked to Jason about the specs before using 6sn7 adapters.


----------



## Kevwheez

Paladin79 said:


> No, the filament current might support a 6sn7 but not a power tube. I saw this without looking up the specs.
> 
> I talked to Jason about the specs before using 6sn7 adapters.



Ah, OK; thanks Paladin. Appreciate the quick reply.  I saw one for sale and couldn't remember what one of those larger Amperex tubes would work with the Vali (adapter needed of course).


----------



## Paladin79

Kevwheez said:


> Ah, OK; thanks Paladin. Appreciate the quick reply.  I saw one for sale and couldn't remember what one of those larger Amperex tubes would work with the Vali (adapter needed of course).



I would be a little surprised if an adapter existed, both have octal bases but there are a lot of differences lol.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jan 9, 2020)

Kevwheez said:


> Quick question; So as I try to round out my initial collection of different/odd tubes to give a "rolling through", will those larger Amperex 6AS7G tubes work in the Vali with an adapter? And if so, I'm assuming it would be the same adapter that allows it to run the 6SN7 tubes? (or is my brain mush this morning?)
> 
> Thanks in advance for the answer!
> 
> ...


You could consider the following variants of 6SN7 double triode in Vali 2: 6C8G [or VT-163] (octal pins but a different adapter with a separate heater wire); a 7N7 (loctal pins so a different adapter), @bcowen famous Frankie (see https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-3-tube-rolling-thread.876016/page-84#post-14447101) and then single triodes through dedicated adapters taking twin tubes: 6J5 [or VT-94] octals, and 7A4 [or VT-192] loctals. All adapters can be purchased from e.g. Xuling Audio Labs or elsewhere on ebay. Some of these tubes still can be found for a fraction of costs of the good 6SN7. Then of course there are Russian 6SV7 analogues, 6H8C Fotons of 1951 and MELZ 1578 of similar years (caveat emptor - lots of fake ones around), and, once you have adapter for twin octals, Russian 6C2C and 6C5C fit in place of 6J5.


----------



## Kevwheez

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> You could consider the following variants of 6SN7 double triode in Vali 2: 6C8G [or VT-163] (octal pins but a different adapter with a separate heater wire); a 7N7 (loctal pins so a different adapter), @bcowen famous Frankie (see https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-3-tube-rolling-thread.876016/page-84#post-14447101) and then single triods through dedicated adapters taking twin tubes: 6J5 [or VT-94] octals, and 7A4 [or VT-192] loctals. All adapters can be purchased from e.g. Xuling Audio Labs or elsewhere on ebay. Some of these tubes still can be found for a fraction of costs of the good 6SN7.



Thanks SO much, Donkey! I will check out these links and info - appreciate the tips!


----------



## Kevwheez

(I apologize in advance is asking stuff here is repetitive/old news - but checking through 300+ pages of the thread is a bit much at this point; I can only hope that perhaps other newbs see some of these answers and it helps them out as well!)

So, in looking at the 6SN7 variants, specifically the 6C8G tubes (the ones with the separate heater wire); I would need to stack, i'm guessing, a socket saver to clear the Vali body), then a 6922-6SN7 adapter onto that and then the 6C8G-6SN7 adapter on top of THAT, right? LOL!

Gee, I can't see HOW this whole "tube rolling" deal gets addictive or anything!

-Kev


----------



## Paladin79

Kevwheez said:


> (I apologize in advance is asking stuff here is repetitive/old news - but checking through 300+ pages of the thread is a bit much at this point; I can only hope that perhaps other newbs see some of these answers and it helps them out as well!)
> 
> So, in looking at the 6SN7 variants, specifically the 6C8G tubes (the ones with the separate heater wire); I would need to stack, i'm guessing, a socket saver to clear the Vali body), then a 6922-6SN7 adapter onto that and then the 6C8G-6SN7 adapter on top of THAT, right? LOL!
> 
> ...


You can also get into single triode tubes that preceded 6sn7's (dual triode).  There are Loctal as well as octal versions.


----------



## Kevwheez

Paladin79 said:


> You can also get into single triode tubes that preceded 6sn7's (dual triode).  There are Loctal as well as octal versions.



And so it continues! 

I'm glad a lot of these adapters and the "non-rarefied" tubes are pretty decently priced for experimenting!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jan 9, 2020)

Kevwheez said:


> So, in looking at the 6SN7 variants, specifically the 6C8G tubes (the ones with the separate heater wire); I would need to stack, i'm guessing, a socket saver to clear the Vali body), then a 6922-6SN7 adapter onto that and then the 6C8G-6SN7 adapter on top of THAT, right? LOL!
> 
> Gee, I can't see HOW this whole "tube rolling" deal gets addictive or anything!
> 
> -Kev


Depends. Socket saver - yes. There are adapters from 6C8G directly to 6922. For the twin octals and loctals, I have direct from 2 x 6J5 to 6922, but need to use 6SN7 to 6922 for 2 x 7A4 to 6SN7.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> You can also get into single triode tubes that preceded 6sn7's (dual triode).  There are Loctal as well as octal versions.


The setup in the picture: aune t1 > Vali 2 is my endgame with AKG K702. It was invented by Tom @Paladin79 to who I am indebted, as I am to Bill @bcowen and others for guiding me through the maze of tubes.


----------



## Kevwheez

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> The setup in the picture: aune t1 > Vali 2 is my endgame with AKG K702. It was invented by Tom @Paladin79 to who I am indebted, as I am to Bill @bcowen and others for guiding me through the maze of tubes.



Thanks very, very much to you and Paladin for your continued input! Those are great shots, Donkey - they will come in handy for sure!
I guess one is never too old to begin getting sucked into yet another hobby (i.e., way to spend money!) LOL


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> The setup in the picture: aune t1 > Vali 2 is my endgame with AKG K702. It was invented by Tom @Paladin79 to who I am indebted, as I am to Bill @bcowen and others for guiding me through the maze of tubes.


O.D.D. you are much too kind....to Bill, otherwise your words are certainly welcome.


----------



## Ripper2860

Fyi - @Paladin79 sawed the legs off his table to ensure the tubes don't hit the ceiling. YMMV.


----------



## Keno18

Dammit, I tried very hard to still like the 6xx/DarkVoice combination. But side by side the 4xx/Vali beats it and not by a little. Especially with a 12au7a clear top. I'm inching ever closer to selling the former.


----------



## Mr Trev

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Depends. Socket saver - yes. There are adapters from 6C8G directly to 6922. For the twin octals and loctals, I have direct from 2 x 6J5 to 6922, but need to use 6SN7 to 6922 for 2 x 7A4 to 6SN7.



What are them little tubes in your Vali on the last pic? Also, why is there a bottle of cologne there too?


----------



## Joe Garfield

Keno18 said:


> Dammit, I tried very hard to still like the 6xx/DarkVoice combination. But side by side the 4xx/Vali beats it and not by a little. Especially with a 12au7a clear top. I'm inching ever closer to selling the former.



Why not get another 6xx and keep one set at work?


----------



## Keno18

Joe Garfield said:


> Why not get another 6xx and keep one set at work?


I used to like the 6xx/DarkVoice combination until I heard the HE4XX/Vali together. I'm retired so don't need one for work. I'm figuring out how to upgrade to a Lyr 3 without getting divorced.


----------



## Joe Garfield

Oops I missed the part about the HE4xx! I just got the HD6xx and really like it. It sounds a little different from my HD650 and it’s hard to choose 1, but I need one for work and one for home so that helps!


----------



## Keno18

Joe Garfield said:


> Oops I missed the part about the HE4xx! I just got the HD6xx and really like it. It sounds a little different from my HD650 and it’s hard to choose 1, but I need one for work and one for home so that helps!


Well, you're set. I guess you're not in a situation where sound leakage matters.


----------



## Joe Garfield

Keno18 said:


> Well, you're set. I guess you're not in a situation where sound leakage matters.



Actually I am! But I don’t know where to go from here. I’ve thought about LCD-2C but they’re expensive, heavy, and Idk if there’s anywhere to try them. Idk what other closed back options there are that are as good quality as HDxx without being fatiguing like DT-XX0.


----------



## Kevwheez

I am SUCH a fan of open phones! I love my HD660S! I am lucky I have achieved a point in life that I have a place (albeit, in the basement) that I can listen to them at volume to my hearts content!


-Kev


----------



## Joe Garfield

Oh they’re freaking amazing - I often feel like I have to check that the sound is coming from my headphones and not the source (like my digital piano for example.)

So far I’ve gotten away with it at work but I know my coworkers can hear them, even at 8:00 on Vali. But I’m so spoiled idk where to go from here.

Once I heard these cans that were made of wood, supposedly shiplap or something, angled to minimize sound wave juju. They were phenomenal but i can’t remember what they were and I doubt they’re in my budget.


----------



## Keno18

Joe Garfield said:


> Actually I am! But I don’t know where to go from here. I’ve thought about LCD-2C but they’re expensive, heavy, and Idk if there’s anywhere to try them. Idk what other closed back options there are that are as good quality as HDxx without being fatiguing like DT-XX0.


Try something from Amazon, you can always return it. Have you thought of IEMs? The Quad Triple Drivers are supposed to be good.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Mr Trev said:


> What are them little tubes in your Vali on the last pic? Also, why is there a bottle of cologne there too?


The novals are single triodes, EC 8010, in this case made/branded by Siemens. Very resolving and transparent if a little drei. The cologne is for spraying the Russian 6C2C single triodes in aune: they have a beautiful sound but alas, they stink...


----------



## Mr Trev

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> The novals are single triodes, EC 8010, in this case made/branded by Siemens. Very resolving and transparent if a little drei. The cologne is for spraying the Russian 6C2C single triodes in aune: they have a beautiful sound but alas, they stink...



I was just a little worried you might be taking tubeophilia to disturbing new levels and we'll have to start calling you Old Dirty Donkey


----------



## bibbs

Mr Trev said:


> I was just a little worried you might be taking tubeophilia to disturbing new levels and we'll have to start calling you Old Dirty Donkey



i about spat my Guinness over my keyboard.


----------



## bibbs

i got fed up with the DL-301 mk2 so got a new 1042 stylus for my Reson body i had kicking about and things are a lot louder. no difference in the tube yet at about 30hrs. does sound nice though.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> O.D.D. you are much too kind....to Bill, otherwise your words are certainly welcome.



Agreed.  Except for the otherwise. 

And @Old Deaf Donkey  has brought quite a few neat things to the surface as well. As much time as I've spent playing with tubes, I didn't even know about these crazy things called adapters before coming to HeadFi. Adapt a 6SN7 into a 6922 socket? You gotta be kidding me.


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> Actually I am! But I don’t know where to go from here. I’ve thought about LCD-2C but they’re expensive, heavy, and Idk if there’s anywhere to try them. Idk what other closed back options there are that are as good quality as HDxx without being fatiguing like DT-XX0.



While these won't save you any money over the LCD-2C's, they certainly aren't heavy and are not at all fatiguing.  Same problem with probably not being able to hear them prior to purchase (limited dealer sites), but they do have a 15 day return policy with only a 5% restocking charge.  I love mine. Just got a brand new pair of HD-6XX's too, but haven't had a chance to listen to them yet. Once I do, I can post some impressions of the differences. Build quality?  Let's just say that in comparison to the HD-6XX's you won't be disappointed in the least.






https://danclarkaudio.com/headphones-22/aeon.html

https://danclarkaudio.com/terms-conditions

I see they also have a demo pair of the Aeon 1 (closed) for $500. The 2's are better, no question, but for a $400 discount?  Man, that's a pretty sweet deal.  @Ripper2860 has both the Aeon 1's and the HD-6XX's -- perhaps he'll chime in with a few thoughts.  Wait...it's Ripper...a few *words*.  Yeah, that's what I meant.  

https://danclarkaudio.com/shop/aeono-1-381.html


----------



## Ripper2860

HD6XX = 

AFC v1 = 

YMMV


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> The novals are single triodes, EC 8010, in this case made/branded by Siemens. Very resolving and transparent if a little drei. The cologne is for spraying the Russian 6C2C single triodes in aune: they have a beautiful sound but alas, they stink...



The only problem using an adapter with the Aune is it hides the LED light in the socket.  I honestly didn't even know it was there, 'cause the first tube I used when I got it was a 396A that needed an adapter.  Stuck the Brimar 6BQ7 in there the other day (no adapter), and after first thinking the tube had gone nuclear in a blinding white flash I was relieved to see it was the socket LED. Coolness in my book.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> HD6XX =
> 
> AFC v1 =
> 
> YMMV



Well....for you that's close enough to words.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The only problem using an adapter with the Aune is it hides the LED light in the socket.  I honestly didn't even know it was there, 'cause the first tube I used when I got it was a 396A that needed an adapter.  Stuck the Brimar 6BQ7 in there the other day (no adapter), and after first thinking the tube had gone nuclear in a blinding white flash I was relieved to see it was the socket LED. Coolness in my book.


If you like tube bling I should send you this amp. Magic eye tubes and blue LED’s. I need to change out some crappy parts and then it might be listenable.


----------



## Joe Garfield (Jan 10, 2020)

OK what smart guy here bought the demo AFC1s?? 

I see Dan Clark headphones used to be Mr. Speakers - and my understanding is that Mr Speakers cans were 3D printed. Is that still true of the Dan Clarks? I refuse to spend that much money on 3D printed crap (and this is coming from one of the engineers who brought 3D printed metal parts to aerospace certification.)

_*Sorry for the negativity - imo the technology is way over-hyped given it's current mechanical properties._


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> OK what smart guy here bought the demo AFC1s??
> 
> I see Dan Clark headphones used to be Mr. Speakers - and my understanding is that Mr Speakers cans were 3D printed. Is that still true of the Dan Clarks? I refuse to spend that much money on 3D printed crap (and this is coming from one of the engineers who brought 3D printed metal parts to aerospace certification.)
> 
> _*Sorry for the negativity - imo the technology is way over-hyped given it's current mechanical properties._



Back in the early days of Mr Speakers when he was basically modifying other companies 'phones there were 3D printed parts involved. But unless 3D printing has improved at 12x the speed of light over the past several years, there's nothing 3D printed in either the Aeon 1's or 2's.  I honestly don't know what the parts are that go into these things, but both Aeon versions are very high quality in sound, appearance, and feel. These are ground-up products, not a modification of someone else's.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> If you like tube bling I should send you this amp. Magic eye tubes and blue LED’s. I need to change out some crappy parts and then it might be listenable.



Those blue tubes are definitely pretty cool, but I'm allergic to Chinese amps.  Chinese cable sleeving is growing on me though.


----------



## Joe Garfield

bcowen said:


> Back in the early days of Mr Speakers when he was basically modifying other companies 'phones there were 3D printed parts involved. But unless 3D printing has improved at 12x the speed of light over the past several years, there's nothing 3D printed in either the Aeon 1's or 2's.  I honestly don't know what the parts are that go into these things, but both Aeon versions are very high quality in sound, appearance, and feel. These are ground-up products, not a modification of someone else's.



Thanks very much for explaining that - it all makes sense. I will give Dan Cark products some more consideration.

I don't necessarily need inexpensive and available locally, that just helps. Comfort and non-fatiguing, however, are requirements.


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> Comfort and non-fatiguing, however, are requirements.



Same here.  

I didn't quote your 'inexpensive' part 'cause I'm cheap.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Those blue tubes are definitely pretty cool, but I'm allergic to Chinese amps.  Chinese cable sleeving is growing on me though.



By the time I am done rebuilding it, there will be few Chinese parts involved other than the power transformer. Some of your tubes are in it of course.


----------



## bcowen

If anybody is interested, BangyBang has a smorgasbord of 5670/2C51 type tubes available.

Here you can get a $10 pair of GE's actually labeled as GE's for $108:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...a=0&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851






And here you can get a $10 pair of GE's labeled as Penta Labs for $157.50:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...a=0&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851





And here you can get a $10 pair of GE's labeled as Amperex for $170.10 (except they're not a matched pair -- one on the left is 3 mica with a rectangular getter and the one on the right is 2 mica with a round getter...not that it really makes much difference with a GE):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...a=0&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100012.m1985






LMAO.  What's unfortunate is that it appears people are actually buying these garbage tubes at the beyond-stupid prices...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 11, 2020)

Ooooooh.  As tempting as they are, the choice of flooring materials indicates that these are not legitimate BangyBang listings.  Nice try at covertly attempting to sell-off your stash.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Ooooooh.  As tempting as they are, the choice of flooring materials indicates that these are not legitimate BangyBang listings.  Nice try at covertly attempting to sell-off your stash.



You must have missed the news story: BangyBang spilled his silkscreening ink all over the carpet and had to toss it. He could probably buy another piece, but that would obviously cut into his 5000% profit margin.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah.  I may have overlooked it.  Was it mentioned in last month's '*BangyBang -- College Girls Gone Wild!*' edition?  



(I'll have to get it out from under my mattress and double-check)


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> The only problem using an adapter with the Aune is it hides the LED light in the socket.  I honestly didn't even know it was there, 'cause the first tube I used when I got it was a 396A that needed an adapter.  Stuck the Brimar 6BQ7 in there the other day (no adapter), and after first thinking the tube had gone nuclear in a blinding white flash I was relieved to see it was the socket LED. Coolness in my book.


Your Aune is of a very old model. Mine has 4 small holes around the large hole for the tube, and I can see RED light once it is on. That is Mk3.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Your Aune is of a very old model. Mine has 4 small holes around the large hole for the tube, and I can see RED light once it is on. That is Mk3.



Yeah, I try and keep my components vintage...like me.    The LED in mine is a bluish-white (or maybe whitish-blue?) and comes on once the tube has warmed up and the protection relay actuates. I like it...adds a bit of bling.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Those blue tubes are definitely pretty cool, but I'm allergic to Chinese amps.  Chinese cable sleeving is growing on me though.


Once I change out 90% of the parts and use larger value output caps with quality bypass caps maybe I will change the name on the front. Maybe the Cowen.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Once I change out 90% of the parts and use larger value output caps with quality bypass caps maybe I will change the name on the front. Maybe the Cowen.



Make it the _*Mr.*_ Cowen, and I'll be amenable to negotiating the royalties.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Make it the _*Mr.*_ Cowen, and I'll be amenable to negotiating the royalties.



We will see, but say the wrong thing and I stuff the amp with GE tubes and leave them there for a week lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> We will see, but say the wrong thing and I stuff the amp with GE tubes and leave them there for a week lol.



Oops.  A fate worse than an extended stay in a nursing home.  So I'll be nice...to you.  Haven't picked on @Ripper2860 in a while and he's probably feeling neglected.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 11, 2020)

I'm OK. I'm used to being ignored like a virtual leper.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jan 12, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Be very interested in your impressions of the Koss.  That's the Massdrop version, yes?


Finally, I got time to connect E90 RCA in < aune T1 RCA out. Now my KOSS ESP-95X sound beautifully. Everything is there: resolution, space, precision, speed, tonal balance and richness. Slightly different from AKG K702 on Vali 2 from the same DAC, but a great euphonic pleasure nevertheless. Perhaps I will use both, just in different places - already bought a second aune T1 Mk3. In the end, even the price more or less the same: AKG K702 ca. $160 + Vali2 $170 + good tube $70 = $400; paid same for KOSS ESP-95X system. Add aune T1 Mk3  to that for $150, + adapter $25 + 2 VT-192 for $15 a pair, et voilà: 2 awesome HP rigs for less than $600 each (+cables etc). Have retired Modi MB again... Will start rolling tubes in the aune + Koss system, with a difference that now I have all the tubes I need, maybe except a Telefunken ECC88 and Siemens CCa, but won't bother


----------



## Joe Garfield (Jan 14, 2020)

I got my Siemens 6BK7B. It’s still burning in but 10hr impressions are pretty good! I don’t have Siemens 6DJ8 or 6922 to compare it to, but compared to Amperex Orange Globe “holographic” would be a pretty good description! The highs are more sparkly and extended without fatigue. It’s pretty much what I was hoping to hear.

It seems like the lower end with new tubes takes time to develop. At first power up the bass was loose and bloody, but after 10hrs it has tightened up considerably.

I’ll do a full eval and A/B tomorrow at work when it’s back on Mimby with my familiar HD650s and streaming hi-fi.

Edit: after further listening and comparing, I have to say this tube isn’t worth it. It sounds like something is ‘missing’ - maybe the plankton or whatever. It also feels ‘erroneous’ in the bottom end. Bass seems strong but muddy and maybe compressed. Analytically I liked a lot of the upper end details and space I heard, but when I put other tubes back in they sounded so much more musical and accurate.


----------



## Keno18 (Jan 12, 2020)

Experimented with Equalizer APO. It is software that precisely removes all the hills and valleys in headphone response curves to render the 'phones virtually neutral.There are literally hundreds of preset files available for virtually any headphone. It installs itself into the Windows sound system where possible. I installed mine into the VB Hifi Cable chain used with the Qobuz through Foobar setup a while back. If you've got that or the Amazon through Foobar or Tidal through Foobar it should also work. If anyone is interested let me know and I'll do another write up.

Edit: Just tried it with the HD6XX/DarkVoice combination. Literally sounds like a different HP setup. I like it again, Sennheiser veil gone? How? Bears more testing.


----------



## Keno18

Joe Garfield said:


> Actually I am! But I don’t know where to go from here. I’ve thought about LCD-2C but they’re expensive, heavy, and Idk if there’s anywhere to try them. Idk what other closed back options there are that are as good quality as HDxx without being fatiguing like DT-XX0.


Just saw a Z review of the Sennheiser HD280 PROS (The new model.). 32db of isolation, decent sound. $99.95 on Amazon.


----------



## Keno18

Played around some more with Equalizer APO. Got it to work outside of Foobar. Connected it to the dac. So it should work with most Windows based sources. Only drawbacks are it won't work with asio or in exclusive mode for wasapi. Otherwise it works as advertised, improving the sound of any headphone I can find a preset for. I can switch among headphones by just selecting the headphone type on the desktop. There are over 2000 headphones listed in the preset database. The bottom line is I can enjoy either headphone and not have to favor one over the other.


----------



## Joe Garfield

I edited my post about the Siemens 6BK7. I don’t think it’s the right tube for this amp.


----------



## Kevwheez

OK; still reading through the older pages on this thread and came across a post by Donkey around April and was finally persuaded in purchasing a similar pair of 6С2С Novosibirsk tubes (these were also a matched pair from '67) to try my first "pairing" tube set-up.

My question, so I don't order the wrong thing, is what adapter do I order for the Vali 2. I saw the one he was using but want to make sure. Thanks in advance!

Cheers,
Kev


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jan 14, 2020)

Kevwheez said:


> OK; still reading through the older pages on this thread and came across a post by Donkey around April and was finally persuaded in purchasing a similar pair of 6С2С Novosibirsk tubes (these were also a matched pair from '67) to try my first "pairing" tube set-up.
> 
> My question, so I don't order the wrong thing, is what adapter do I order for the Vali 2. I saw the one he was using but want to make sure. Thanks in advance!
> 
> ...


Well. I am using https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6J5G-6C5G-VT-94-CV1932-L63-VR67-TO-ECC88-6922-tube-converter-adapter-/201458214762. Regarding the tubes, I would not bother looking for exotic octal Russian tubes first (they may need reflowing the solder in the pins) - there's plenty of metal bottle 6J5 pairs on ebay for nothing e.g. those; or you can buy two matching 6J5GT separately from reputed dealer, vivatubes, or elsewhere.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 14, 2020)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Well. I am using https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6J5G-6C5G-VT-94-CV1932-L63-VR67-TO-ECC88-6922-tube-converter-adapter-/201458214762. Regarding the tubes, I would not bother looking for exotic Russian tubes first - there's plenty of metal bottle 6J5 pairs on ebay for nothing e.g. those; or you can buy two matching 6J5GT separately from reputed dealer, vivatubes, or elsewhere.


Sylvania is my personal choice on those tubes. Black plate, three hole that I have dubbed Naughty Girls, as opposed to Bad Boys.  Bottom getter, there are also grey plates but I prefer the aforementioned.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jan 14, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Sylvania is my personal choice on those tubes. Black plate, three hole that I have dubbed Naughty Girls, as opposed to Bad Boys.


Say, these?


----------



## Kevwheez

Paladin79 said:


> Sylvania is my personal choice on those tubes. Black plate, three hole that I have dubbed Naughty Girls, as opposed to Bad Boys.  Bottom getter, there are also grey plates but I prefer the aforementioned.



Sweet; once again, my thanks to you both for the continued info. As I already purchased the pair ($35 total with shipping) I guess I'll just weigh in as to how they sound once they arrive - I guess I will need to make sure I check in with you guys before making further "forays"; you'll save me fundage! 

-Kev


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 14, 2020)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Say, these?


Those are grey plate, they are ok but I prefer the black plate.  Not the best photo sorry.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Kevwheez said:


> Sweet; once again, my thanks to you both for the continued info. As I already purchased the pair ($35 total with shipping) I guess I'll just weigh in as to how they sound once they arrive - I guess I will need to make sure I check in with you guys before making further "forays"; you'll save me fundage!
> 
> -Kev


We? Save you fundage? You must be joking. In 6 months, you will be having 128+ tubes you will never remember to use second time. No tube you will buy will be the right one for guys in this thread: wrong colour of plates, wrong shape of mica, wrong number of posts, too many or too few holes, fake brand, etc. - you'll see. When you will finally find the tube that cannot be rubbished we will say: what? you paid $70? Wow, I remember buying 6 for $18...


----------



## Paladin79

Here is a better photo of the black plate version, generally they have metal bases but I do not see them as often in pairs as I once did.


----------



## Kevwheez

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> We? Save you fundage? You must be joking. In 6 months, you will be having 128+ tubes you will never remember to use second time. No tube you will buy will be the right one for guys in this thread: wrong colour of plates, wrong shape of mica, wrong number of posts, too many or too few holes, fake brand, etc. - you'll see. When you will finally find the tube that cannot be rubbished we will say: what? you paid $70? Wow, I remember buying 6 for $18...




 OK, fair enough; how about "save me MORE than I would wandering blindly through this endeavor"! LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> We? Save you fundage? You must be joking. In 6 months, you will be having 128+ tubes you will never remember to use second time. No tube you will buy will be the right one for guys in this thread: wrong colour of plates, wrong shape of mica, wrong number of posts, too many or too few holes, fake brand, etc. - you'll see. When you will finally find the tube that cannot be rubbished we will say: what? you paid $70? Wow, I remember buying 6 for $18...



ROFL!!!!!!

But wait.  Huh?  I don't have even a clue what you're talking about.  Nobody here would do such things I'm quite sure.

BTW, those RCA's you linked above? Beyond being almost dead everyone knows the glass bottle versions sound better. No telling what plate color is hidden beneath that metal, but without even being able to see it chances are it's wrong.  I won't even go into the getter shape....


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 14, 2020)

VT-94D’s, military version of the black plate 3 hole Sylvania 6j5’s in an amp I designed. The single triode tubes offer exceptional channel separation IMHO, they try to eliminate cross talk in dual triodes with shielding.


----------



## bibbs

Brimar is there. yes its nice and very open. i would not say very "valve" sound but its got boogie factor. soundstage is superb, low, mid and high placement with far left right and a well placed centre.

borrowed son #2's beyer DT770 80ohm (had to service them) and i'm sitting here listening to supertramp crime. everything goes left/right and all around. gone is the "shouty" sound of the standard tube.

no the highs are not subdued.

its nice, yes indeedy.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Sylvania is my personal choice on those tubes. Black plate, three hole that I have dubbed Naughty Girls, as opposed to Bad Boys.  Bottom getter, there are also grey plates but I prefer the aforementioned.





via Imgflip Meme Generator


----------



## Keno18

For me, the HE4XX + Equalizer APO software + Brimar 6bq7 + Vali 2 = endgame at least for this level.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Keno18 said:


> For me, the HE4XX + Equalizer APO software + Brimar 6bq7 + Vali 2 = endgame at least for this level.


And the DAC, if I may?


----------



## Keno18

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> And the DAC, if I may?


Sure,  ifi IDSD nano black label with a jitterbug and isilencer on the usb input.


----------



## Keno18

Brimar 6bq7+Qobuz+back issues of Stereophile record reviews=heavily used Vali 2.


----------



## Keno18

Swapped out the hardware equalizers I've been using since the summer for software ones installed into Equalizer APO. What a difference. Open, airy, amazing detail. I can hear strings being plucked on a bass like I've never heard before. A voice sounds like it's singing in my ear just for me. It's like I went from mid-fi to hi-fi. This is entry level? Can't wait for the next level.


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> Brimar 6bq7+Qobuz+back issues of Stereophile record reviews=heavily used Vali 2.



Vali 2's just appeared in B stock. Good time to grab a spare.


----------



## Keno18

bcowen said:


> Vali 2's just appeared in B stock. Good time to grab a spare.


I've got my sites set on something better. Saving my pennies.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Vali 2's just appeared in B stock. Good time to grab a spare.



Jeez, does this mean you're going to start hoarding amps along with tubes now?


----------



## Mr Trev

Keno18 said:


> I've got my sites set on something better. Saving my pennies.



Something better? Is it bigger than a breadbox?


----------



## Keno18

Mr Trev said:


> Something better? Is it bigger than a breadbox?


A better amp. Haven't decided on which one yet. Kinda depends on the wife factor.


----------



## Paladin79

@bcowen has been so kind with tubes he has sent me that I will build him an amp of my design. I made four of them for a blind test of 6sn7 equivalents and those who have heard them so far realize how much tube sound they reveal. Bill has a sample in his hands now. The man can differentiate between tubes more than anyone I know so he is a great guinea pig lol.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> @bcowen has been so kind with tubes he has sent me that I will build him an amp of my design. I made four of them for a blind test of 6sn7 equivalents and those who have heard them so far realize how much tube sound they reveal. Bill has a sample in his hands now. The man can differentiate between tubes more than anyone I know so he is a great guinea pig lol.



You made 4 huh… can I have one?


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> You made 4 huh… can I have one?


Sorry they are already spoken for, a local audiophile group helped pay for them and I just supplied design and labor. They turned out better than expected so now I am dealing with requests.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Jeez, does this mean you're going to start hoarding amps along with tubes now?



Start?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> @bcowen has been so kind with tubes he has sent me that I will build him an amp of my design. I made four of them for a blind test of 6sn7 equivalents and those who have heard them so far realize how much tube sound they reveal. Bill has a sample in his hands now. The man can differentiate between tubes more than anyone I know so he is a great guinea pig lol.



Appreciate you inserting the 'guinea'.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry they are already spoken for, a local audiophile group helped pay for them and I just supplied design and labor. They turned out better than expected so now I am dealing with requests.



So what are you dealing with? Hybrid? OTL?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 31, 2020)

Class A OTL, and I am working on building my own cases with quality hardwoods. 6sn7 and 6080 configuration.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Class A OTL, and I am working on building my own cases with quality hardwoods. 6sn7 and 6080 configuration.



Sweet. If you find yourself with too many cluttering up your space, you know where to find me.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Sweet. If you find yourself with too many cluttering up your space, you know where to find me.



Somewhere in Canada?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Class A OTL, and I am working on building my own cases with quality hardwoods. 6sn7 and 6080 configuration.



Wait...you mean tubes are supposed to go in this?  Dang it.  I thought those sockets were just for storage, like, you know...cupholders.  Remember that I didn't get a manual, so it's not my fault.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Wait...you mean tubes are supposed to go in this?  Dang it.  I thought those sockets were just for storage, like, you know...cupholders.  Remember that I didn't get a manual, so it's not my fault.


The amp is free, the manual is priceless!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The amp is free, the manual is priceless!



I knew there was a catch....


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Class A OTL, and I am working on building my own cases with quality hardwoods. 6sn7 and 6080 configuration.





bcowen said:


> Wait...you mean tubes are supposed to go in this?  Dang it.  I thought those sockets were just for storage, like, you know...cupholders.  Remember that I didn't get a manual, so it's not my fault.



I forgot to mention earlier…
Standard internet forum policy - pics or it didn't happen!


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I forgot to mention earlier…
> Standard internet forum policy - pics or it didn't happen!


The amp is on the top left.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 31, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> The amp is on the top left.



Hey, the one I have looks just the same!  

Have the PSVane CV181T-II in there right now which sounds awesome. It was good but not quite making my top 3 in the Lyr, but _really_ sings in this amp. RCA 6AS7GA output tube...I think the one @Paladin79 is showing in his is a 6AS7G.  Unsure if there's any difference other than the bottle shape...


----------



## Paladin79

Before long I will hear the PSVane along with most other 6sn7 equivalents known to man. It should be a fun exercise.

That was just a case I happened to have and it allowed me some room to experiment with various components and wire.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> That was just a case I happened to have and it allowed me some room to experiment with various components and wire.



I'm hoping the final version will be small enough to fit in a shirt pocket?  I can use a smaller 6SN7 if needed.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'm hoping the final version will be small enough to fit in a shirt pocket?  I can use a smaller 6SN7 if needed.



You should plan on a bigger shirt pocket.  Oh yeah, tubes get hot.. I believe asbestos works as a good insulator but your health might eventually suffer. Just make sure the music is worth it.

Back to Vali 2 tube rolling, I am going through a bunch of Fotons from 1958, after replacing the solder in the pins they will burn in for about ten hours in the Vali and I will see which are worthy of consistent use. Not an overly expensive tube but with a bit of work they can sound pretty good.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-6N8S-...645882?hash=item23cc316a3a:g:zcMAAOSwY9pd3OhS


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Back to Vali 2 tube rolling, I am going through a bunch of Fotons from 1958, after replacing the solder in the pins they will burn in for about ten hours in the Vali and I will see which are worthy of consistent use. Not an overly expensive tube but with a bit of work they can sound pretty good.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-6N8S-...645882?hash=item23cc316a3a:g:zcMAAOSwY9pd3OhS



Nice find!  Even if buying just one pair that's $10/tube delivered, and after resoldering that's one of the best sounding $10 tubes around IMO.  Frankies have become far more expensive, mostly thanks to @Ripper2860 hoarding the world supply...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 1, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Frankies have become far more expensive, mostly thanks to @Ripper2860 hoarding the world supply...



If 12 represents 'The World Supply' , then I guess I'm guilty as charged.  



bcowen said:


> and after resoldering that's one of the best sounding $10 tubes around IMO



BTW -- If you suck out the original solder it will hurt the resale value of the tubes.


----------



## Kevwheez

Speaking of Frankies; I received the second of my two a day or two ago. Now I’m just waiting on that adapter and will see how they sound! Looking forward to it!

-Kev


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Nice find!  Even if buying just one pair that's $10/tube delivered, and after resoldering that's one of the best sounding $10 tubes around IMO.  Frankies have become far more expensive, mostly thanks to @Ripper2860 hoarding the world supply...


I forget if you tried Fotons in the sample amp?  Any thoughts if you did?


----------



## bcowen (Feb 1, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I forget if you tried Fotons in the sample amp?  Any thoughts if you did?



Sure did. It's got that Foton schwing that I love which is especially important with the rotgut music I listen to.    It's a little sweeter in the treble than the Melz, but the Melz is a bit more detailed and extended up top.  Frankie gives up a little of the Fotons rhythm and drive, but adds width and depth to the soundstage. WH-D 6SN7?  Kind of blah. Sylvania Bad Boy is nicely balanced all the way around, but just doesn't get my foot tapping. Nothing stands out as wrong, but nothing really stands out at all. So far, the PSVane is my favorite in this amp but I still have 641 other 6SN7's to try.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 2, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> If 12 represents 'The World Supply' , then I guess I'm guilty as charged.



You have 12?  You've obviously been sneaking them in behind my back.  You're only allowed to have 6 according to the Tube Owner's Association.  If you send me the overage immediately I'll consider _not_ reporting you mostly because I'm a nice guy and all.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 1, 2020)

Kevwheez said:


> Speaking of Frankies; I received the second of my two a day or two ago. Now I’m just waiting on that adapter and will see how they sound! Looking forward to it!
> 
> -Kev



Cool!  Did you order the adapter from Deyan? The shorter one fits _perfectly_...


----------



## Kevwheez

I did indeed (gave you deets in my last PM to you). He was great to work with!


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> You have 12?  You've obviously been sneaking them in behind my back.  You're only allowed to have 6 according to the Tube Owner's Association.  If you send me the overage immediately I'll consider _not_ reporting you mostly because I'm a nice guy and all.



You must learn to read more carefully.  The rules clearly allow for 6 matched pairs.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> The amp is on the top left.





bcowen said:


> Hey, the one I have looks just the same!
> 
> Have the PSVane CV181T-II in there right now which sounds awesome. It was good but not quite making my top 3 in the Lyr, but _really_ sings in this amp. RCA 6AS7GA output tube...I think the one @Paladin79 is showing in his is a 6AS7G.  Unsure if there's any difference other than the bottle shape...



Dammit, now I really want one.
hkjhkj


You


----------



## Mr Trev

Hmm, seems there are still bugs in the system ^^. Ignore the gibberish for now, I'll be back to my regularly scheduled gibberish once the technical issues are sorted out.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 2, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> Dammit, now I really want one.
> hkjhkj
> 
> 
> You



I just bought a bunch of woodworking tools, I am going to use some exotic woods as well as quality hardwoods to build the cases.Maybe you know someone in the states you could drop over the boarder and visit?

Just checking to see if editing is working.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Just checking to see if editing is working.



Apparently not.  But I'll check and see if image pasting is working:





Yup. Good.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I just bought a bunch of woodworking tools, I am going to use some exotic woods as well as quality hardwoods to build the cases.Maybe you know someone in the states you could drop over the boarder and visit?
> 
> Just checking to see if editing is working.


exotic woods are all great, but make mine mdf, with a satin black cherry paintjob


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> exotic woods are all great, but make mine mdf, with a satin black cherry paintjob


Sorry, no GE tubes, no MDF lol. I am gifting one to Bill so I do not have to listen to how maple sounds compared to cherry lumber. He will get what he gets lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry, no GE tubes, no MDF lol. I am gifting one to Bill so I do not have to listen to how maple sounds compared to cherry lumber. He will get what he gets lol.



Don't even think of backpedaling on the double-wall cardboard you already promised for mine. I *do* have standards.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 2, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Don't even think of backpedaling on the double-wall cardboard you already promised for mine. I *do* have standards.


I am starting to accumulate a few things, so eventually I will have the perfect material for you.  I had a shoe box picked out, you could have called the amp Nike but oh well. Double wall cardboard for you. I could have cut up a wooden skid we got from some company the other day but the demolition work would have been too much labor.


----------



## bcowen

For Sunday evening entertainment value only:

If you include "Bad Boy" somewhere in the description, a $2 tube is instantly a good buy for $40.  And an Electro-Harmonix branded 6SN7 'rare'? I suppose that's possible if all the rest of them have been thrown in the garbage where they belong.


----------



## bcowen

Bcowen -- mall cop:


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

Assuming the vali 2 had enough filament current, would you guys happen to know if the vali 2 can handle a 6H30?


----------



## Keno18

Tjj226 Angel said:


> Assuming the vali 2 had enough filament current, would you guys happen to know if the vali 2 can handle a 6H30?


But the Vali 2 doesn't have enough filament current.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel (Feb 2, 2020)

Keno18 said:


> But the Vali 2 doesn't have enough filament current.



Ok. Lemme rephrase. Pretend for a moment the vali 2 has enough filament current.

Does anyone know or have insight as to whether or not a 6h30 would turn the vali 2 into a puff of smoke.

I had built my own external wall wart. I had taken the transformer out of the provided wall wart and I had a separate 6.3v transformer feeding the filaments. 

So far I can say it definitely improves the sound of the 6sn7. But im still debating on risking the 6h30.


----------



## Kevwheez

Ok, I just had to type up a quick note to Bill (as well as any others that may be interested to hear);

I just received my adapter from a fellow forum member referred to me by Bill allowing a direct plug in from my 7N7 tube to the Vali. I plugged my tall bottle, black plate, racetrack mica, Bad Boy Frankentube into it and let her warm up for a mere 30 minutes or so. I have played about 4 or 5 songs through my Sennheiser HD660 phones, and...

OMG!!!

This tube is the ever-loving bomb!! I feel like I am hearing these tunes in 3 and a 1/2 D!! Awesome, awesome, AWESOME tube! Better than any of the other 10-13 I have currently. My sincere thanks for his help and advice in getting a couple questions I had in regards to it.

For anyone out there that is so inclined to get a hold of one of these beauties, it is SO worth the pittance they cost to hear what they can do for the music - glorious!!

(I can'y wait to hear how much better it'll be after a 100 hours! LOL)

-Kev


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 4, 2020)

Kevwheez said:


> Ok, I just had to type up a quick note to Bill (as well as any others that may be interested to hear);
> 
> I just received my adapter from a fellow forum member referred to me by Bill allowing a direct plug in from my 7N7 tube to the Vali. I plugged my tall bottle, black plate, racetrack mica, Bad Boy Frankentube into it and let her warm up for a mere 30 minutes or so. I have played about 4 or 5 songs through my Sennheiser HD660 phones, and...
> 
> ...


Oh geez now Bill's head is going to swell even more. 
I have used some of those in my 6sn7 equivalent challenges and they do fairly well depending on the group. They are good for the price but as with many tubes, it depends on the amp used, IMHO.


----------



## Kevwheez

Paladin79 said:


> Oh geez now Bill's head is going to swell even more.
> I have used some of those in my 6sn7 equivalent challenges and they do fairly well depending on the group. They are good for the price but it varies amp to amp with some tubes.



Yeah, I know - apologies guys! 

And I really didn't know what to expect, but this (at least it the VERY short amount of time I have been listening) tube is easily head and shoulders over the others thus far in my estimation. Whether I got lucky or these are some kind of "special sauce" deal, who knows - I'm not complaining whatever the reason! LOL

-Kev


----------



## Paladin79

Kevwheez said:


> Yeah, I know - apologies guys!
> 
> And I really didn't know what to expect, but this (at least it the VERY short amount of time I have been listening) tube is easily head and shoulders over the others thus far in my estimation. Whether I got lucky or these are some kind of "special sauce" deal, who knows - I'm not complaining whatever the reason! LOL
> 
> -Kev


LOL what other 6sn7's have you heard?  And if you like a tube you like a tube, more power to you.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 4, 2020)

oops sorry double post


----------



## bcowen (Feb 4, 2020)

Kevwheez said:


> Ok, I just had to type up a quick note to Bill (as well as any others that may be interested to hear);
> 
> I just received my adapter from a fellow forum member referred to me by Bill allowing a direct plug in from my 7N7 tube to the Vali. I plugged my tall bottle, black plate, racetrack mica, Bad Boy Frankentube into it and let her warm up for a mere 30 minutes or so. I have played about 4 or 5 songs through my Sennheiser HD660 phones, and...
> 
> ...



Cool!  I decided to try the Frankie in the Vali 2 just 'cause.  Even had to order an adapter for it because as strange as it might sound I didn't already have one. Seems to be a very synergistic mate, so glad I did.  And you don't have to put 100 hours on it...that's just for Fotons unless you resolder the pins yourself (or send them to @Paladin79 to solder, but I think he keeps the good ones and sends back, um, a reasonable facsimile thereof ).  Frankies get most of the way there in 5 hours or so, and seem to hit their full potential in 15 - 20 hours at most.


----------



## Kevwheez

The only other one (6SN7 that is) is a Tung Sol mouse ear. I have a couple others en route, a mid-60 Foton version and a set that I will use in one of those dual adapters once the vendor is back on line.

The hugest difference this 7N7 is showing to me is the absolute MASSIVE soundstage and 3D imaging it is displaying to my ears - amazing!

-Kev


----------



## bcowen (Feb 4, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Oh geez now Bill's head is going to swell even more.



Oh, please. Of all people you should know that a theoretically perfect vacuum can't be expanded.    <--- insert smiley here. Forum update has made using them an exercise in irritation.


----------



## KoshNaranek

bcowen said:


> Oh, please. Of all people you should know that a theoretically perfect vacuum can't be expanded.    <--- insert smiley here. Forum update has made using them an exercise in irritation.


I was too stupid to be able to use emojis on the old site. I will not even attempt it now


----------



## Shotland

Hi all, this is my first post here on head-fi. Just snagged a Vali 2 from another forum member and also got a Telefunken E88CC- truly a great sounding tube compared to my RCA and EH 6922's. Anyone else tried the tele? I also recently bought a WE396a, but im still waiting on the adapter!


----------



## Keno18

Shotland said:


> Hi all, this is my first post here on head-fi. Just snagged a Vali 2 from another forum member and also got a Telefunken E88CC- truly a great sounding tube compared to my RCA and EH 6922's. Anyone else tried the tele? I also recently bought a WE396a, but im still waiting on the adapter!


Congrats on your first post. Welcome to tube rolling. You're off to a good start. I never liked the 6922 EH myself. Wait till you start rolling the 6sn7 and varients there of.


----------



## Ripper2860

While I do not have a Vali2, I do have a Valhalla 2 and can say that the WE396As are quite nice.  

Welcome and enjoy!!


----------



## bcowen (Feb 5, 2020)

Shotland said:


> Hi all, this is my first post here on head-fi. Just snagged a Vali 2 from another forum member and also got a Telefunken E88CC- truly a great sounding tube compared to my RCA and EH 6922's. Anyone else tried the tele? I also recently bought a WE396a, but im still waiting on the adapter!



Welcome!

The 50's vintage Telefunken ECC88 (6DJ8 rather than 6922) is one of my all time favorite tubes of this type. Not sure I've ever heard the E88CC. Difference is probably not dramatic between the type so much as it is the year of manufacture, but that's just a guess on my part. I have several RCA 6DJ8's that are decent tubes for the money (to my ears), but don't reach the heights of the Tele. And the EH? Yuck. A little better than a Philips ECG, but not by much.  The WE sounds quite nice in the Vali...bet you like it!


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

I just received a Tung-Sol 6SN7 with an adapter. Wanted to see how the Vali looked with a giant tube. Does look kinda cool.


----------



## Paladin79

oakparkmusicguy said:


> I just received a Tung-Sol 6SN7 with an adapter. Wanted to see how the Vali looked with a giant tube. Does look kinda cool.


You do have other choices of course.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

That is pretty amazing!


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 12, 2020)

Before dual triodes were used in tubes, there were single triode tubes. IMHO they have a bit more separation and you do not have to worry about shielding between the triodes to prevent cross talk. I have a library of tube manuals from the 40's, 50's, 60's etc and in there you can learn about 6j5's or 7A4's etc. Same gain and filament current as 6sn7's.


----------



## bcowen

oakparkmusicguy said:


> That is pretty amazing!



Would appear he photoshopped out the titanium outriggers that keep it from toppling over.  Gluing the bottom of the Vali to the tabletop is an option too.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Would appear he photoshopped out the titanium outriggers that keep it from toppling over.  Gluing the bottom of the Vali to the tabletop is an option too.


Shhh you are giving away secrets. Don't you have some tube fondling you should be doing?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Shhh you are giving away secrets. Don't you have some tube fondling you should be doing?



I _should_ be packing up a special mystery tube for you. But now that you mentioned fondling, I may get delayed.


----------



## Keno18

oakparkmusicguy said:


> I just received a Tung-Sol 6SN7 with an adapter. Wanted to see how the Vali looked with a giant tube. Does look kinda cool.


How do you like the sound?


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Keno18 said:


> How do you like the sound?



Well it looks cool 

I don't like it. However I don't know if it's the tube type or this tube. 
- It has plenty of gain so that's cool
- It's noisy and VERY microphonic
- It's warm and tubey at the expense of responsiveness and clarity
- Mids aren't as clear and forward as I'd like

So it has already been put away. I have two more 6SN7 on the way to test out - a JJ and an EH. Also ordered an NOS Tung-Sol 5670.

So far my favorite tubes are the stock tube and an EH 6CG7


----------



## Shotland

I've been listening and testing the WE396a I just snagged on ebay. It's DEAD silent on high gain and volume maxed out on my Grados. It sounds pretty perfect. It's extremely transparent. It's maybe a touch on the warm side, but really just the littlest touch. It doesn't have any character to it that I've noticed, it just presents the music cleanly (but not boringly).

Anyone else try this tube and have thoughts?


----------



## Kevwheez

Shotland said:


> I've been listening and testing the WE396a I just snagged on ebay. It's DEAD silent on high gain and volume maxed out on my Grados. It sounds pretty perfect. It's extremely transparent. It's maybe a touch on the warm side, but really just the littlest touch. It doesn't have any character to it that I've noticed, it just presents the music cleanly (but not boringly).
> 
> Anyone else try this tube and have thoughts?



I know there are others on this thread with a TON more experience with them that will likely weigh in as well, but I did purchase one of the WE396A tubes a few weeks ago, and like you, find it to be an extremely detailed and neutral tube for sure. I must say, and I did a few pages back, that the 7N7 tubes (Frankentube specifically) I purchased on bcowen's recommendation is (to me) otherworldly!
The option (with appropriate adapters) to try the 6SN7 tubes and single octel tubes in tandem is SUCH a neat way to keep the music interesting and fresh - I am really glad I picked up my Vali!

Cheers,
Kev


----------



## Shotland

Kevwheez said:


> I know there are others on this thread with a TON more experience with them that will likely weigh in as well, but I did purchase one of the WE396A tubes a few weeks ago, and like you, find it to be an extremely detailed and neutral tube for sure. I must say, and I did a few pages back, that the 7N7 tubes (Frankentube specifically) I purchased on bcowen's recommendation is (to me) otherworldly!
> The option (with appropriate adapters) to try the 6SN7 tubes and single octel tubes in tandem is SUCH a neat way to keep the music interesting and fresh - I am really glad I picked up my Vali!
> 
> Cheers,
> Kev



Oh neat! I will definitely check out the 7n7 frankentube!! Sounds fun. I'm dying to jump into the 6sn7 game too!


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

What adapters and where you getting them for the 7n7?


----------



## bcowen

oakparkmusicguy said:


> What adapters and where you getting them for the 7n7?



For the Vali 2 you need a 6922 -> 7N7 Loctal adapter.  I got mine from fellow HeadFier @Deyan .  He can make it in one piece so you don't have to use a socket saver or extension. You'll have to allow shipping time from Bulgaria, but the quality is well worth the wait (IMO).  PM him if interested


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> For the Vali 2 you need a 6922 -> 7N7 Loctal adapter.  I got mine from fellow HeadFier @Deyan .  He can make it in one piece so you don't have to use a socket saver or extension. You'll have to allow shipping time from Bulgaria, but the quality is well worth the wait (IMO).  PM him if interested



Too heck with the tube, tell me about the knob
<is it just me, or did HF go way overboard with the emojis>


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Too heck with the tube, tell me about the knob
> <is it just me, or did HF go way overboard with the emojis>



Emojis quit working for me. If I insert one, the 'Post reply' button quits working. If I refresh the page, the emoji is inserted randomly somewhere in the text. If I delete it and insert a new one back where I want it, the post reply button is dead again. I finally just gave up.  From now on it's  

I never had a problem with the stock knob on the Vali until I put this on, and immediately wished I'd done it sooner. Mucho more friendly ergonomically if you have big fingers (IMO). 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ALCO-SOLID...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Emojis quit working for me. If I insert one, the 'Post reply' button quits working. If I refresh the page, the emoji is inserted randomly somewhere in the text. If I delete it and insert a new one back where I want it, the post reply button is dead again. I finally just gave up.  From now on it's
> 
> I never had a problem with the stock knob on the Vali until I put this on, and immediately wished I'd done it sooner. Mucho more friendly ergonomically if you have big fingers (IMO).
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/ALCO-SOLID-ALUMINUM-KNOB-FOR-1-4-SHAFT-W-INDICATOR-LINE-NOS/333461831761?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


Sweet. I see its also ribbed for somebody's pleasure <I'm not judging>


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Sweet. I see its also ribbed for somebody's pleasure <I'm not judging>



Ribs? No, no, no...those are nanometer-perfect, laser cut tuning channels whose dimensions were derived from a proprietary straight-line conversion of the Fibonacci Sequence.  They not only reduce resonance, they create a pseudo Helmholtz resonance as vibrations are channeled away. I suppose this kind of makes them pleasurable in a way though...


----------



## KoshNaranek

bcowen said:


> Ribs? No, no, no...those are nanometer-perfect, laser cut tuning channels whose dimensions were derived from a proprietary straight-line conversion of the Fibonacci Sequence.  They not only reduce resonance, they create a pseudo Helmholtz resonance as vibrations are channeled away. I suppose this kind of makes them pleasurable in a way though...


----------



## bcowen

KoshNaranek said:


>




Cool!  Always begs the question: was nature built on numbers, or were numbers created to follow nature?


----------



## KoshNaranek

bcowen said:


> Cool!  Always begs the question: was nature built on numbers, or were numbers created to follow nature?


Mathematics, as much as music or any other art, is one of the means by which we rise to a complete self-consciousness. The significance of mathematics resides precisely in the fact that it is an art; by informing us of the nature of our own minds it informs us of much that depends on our minds.

– John William Navin Sullivan


----------



## bcowen

KoshNaranek said:


> Mathematics, as much as music or any other art, is one of the means by which we rise to a complete self-consciousness. The significance of mathematics resides precisely in the fact that it is an art; by informing us of the nature of our own minds it informs us of much that depends on our minds.
> 
> – John William Navin Sullivan



Anybody with four names _has_ to be good at math.  LOL!


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Emojis quit working for me. If I insert one, the 'Post reply' button quits working. If I refresh the page, the emoji is inserted randomly somewhere in the text. If I delete it and insert a new one back where I want it, the post reply button is dead again. I finally just gave up.  From now on it's
> 
> I never had a problem with the stock knob on the Vali until I put this on, and immediately wished I'd done it sooner. Mucho more friendly ergonomically if you have big fingers (IMO).
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/ALCO-SOLID-ALUMINUM-KNOB-FOR-1-4-SHAFT-W-INDICATOR-LINE-NOS/333461831761?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


Rather wrong not using Emojis, people like that should  be banned!
Watching for ban message incoming for myself.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Ribs? No, no, no...those are nanometer-perfect, laser cut tuning channels whose dimensions were derived from a proprietary straight-line conversion of the Fibonacci Sequence.  They not only reduce resonance, they create a pseudo Helmholtz resonance as vibrations are channeled away. I suppose this kind of makes them pleasurable in a way though...


Man, I'd totally buy one if the shipping costs weren't 3x the price of the knob.
What's with you guys and shipping to Canada anyways? We are your allies after all (depending on which interweb conspiracy theory you subscribe to)


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Rather wrong not using Emojis, people like that should  be banned!



Says he, the godfather of emoji-lessness.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Man, I'd totally buy one if the shipping costs weren't 3x the price of the knob.
> What's with you guys and shipping to Canada anyways? We are your allies after all (depending on which interweb conspiracy theory you subscribe to)



I thought we invaded Canada a while back, and there was even a movie about it?  Guess we decided it was too cold and went home.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I thought we invaded Canada a while back, and there was even a movie about it?  Guess we decided it was too cold and went home.


Invade Canada, that's adorable.
There's no way you'd ever make it past our elite war beavers.
Even if by some freakish moment of dumb luck you managed to stumble ass-backwards through a gap in our defenses, the snow snakes would get you - even we know not to mess with those things.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> I thought we invaded Canada a while back, and there was even a movie about it?  Guess we decided it was too cold and went home.


We tried but we didn't know how to skate properly and they beat us back with hockey sticks.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Mr Trev said:


> Invade Canada, that's adorable.
> There's no way you'd ever make it past our elite war beavers.
> Even if by some freakish moment of dumb luck you managed to stumble ass-backwards through a gap in our defenses, the snow snakes would get you - even we know not to mess with those things.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Invade Canada, that's adorable.
> There's no way you'd ever make it past our elite war beavers.
> Even if by some freakish moment of dumb luck you managed to stumble ass-backwards through a gap in our defenses, the snow snakes would get you - even we know not to mess with those things.



Snow snakes? Let me guess -- they're white?  We should probably plan an August invasion then. Either way we'll come up through Wisconsin and bring our badgers. They eat beavers for after school snacks.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Snow snakes? Let me guess -- they're white?  We should probably plan an August invasion then. Either way we'll come up through Wisconsin and bring our badgers. They eat beavers for after school snacks.


Nah. We have a non-aggression pact with all members of the weasel family.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Nah. We have a non-aggression pact with all members of the weasel family.



You _would _have to bring the whole @Ripper2860 lineage into this.  Fine.  We'll reconsider the invasion.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> You _would _have to bring the whole @Ripper2860 lineage into this. Fine. We'll reconsider the invasion.



Alright, I'll give you a little tactical advice if you really want to invade. Show up early. We're way less inclined to be fighty before we've had our morning 6-pack.

But honestly, just bide your time. With the way our gov't is running things (this is what happens when you give a person named "Justin" the keys) you'll just be able to buy us at a liquidation sale in a couple years time.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> You _would _have to bring the whole @Ripper2860 lineage into this.  Fine.  We'll reconsider the invasion.



I'm OK either way.  While I do enjoy Canadian Bacon, I find it a bit extreme and unnecessary to invade the country given that the our friend to the north's Bacon is generally easy to find in US grocery stores and breakfast establishments.  Now if the situation were to change...


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

So my 6SN7 to 6922 adapter doesn’t sit flush in the socket.... the pins are longer than my 5670 to 6922 adapter... thoughts? Issues? Concerns?


----------



## Mr Trev

oakparkmusicguy said:


> So my 6SN7 to 6922 adapter doesn’t sit flush in the socket.... the pins are longer than my 5670 to 6922 adapter... thoughts? Issues? Concerns?



As long as there's no chance of it shorting on the case, I wouldn't sweat it.
Some folks used some wire cutters to shorten the pins so they do sit flush. I suppose it's your call if you want to go that route


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

My ebay purchase of an NOS Tung-Sol 5670 arrived. Just plugged it in... First impressions - interesting!!


----------



## Kevwheez

Speaking of tubes in the mail arriving; I have a set of Sylvania single octel VT-192s arriving today. These look just like the ones the ODD is keen on. Sadly, the seller on eBay that many folks use for those cool dual adapters shows that he is STILL out on Holiday (even though he indicates he was returning on 2/15?) Also, that dual adapter for the 6J5 tubes is listed at almost $300 now (instead of what was about $23 before) What!! 
I won't be able to play around with these little guys until he comes back and I can get an order in for that adapter unfortunately.

-Kev


----------



## Shotland

you guys have any good DIY tube dampening ideas that you've used on your Valis? Kinda want to put something cool together.


----------



## bcowen

Shotland said:


> you guys have any good DIY tube dampening ideas that you've used on your Valis? Kinda want to put something cool together.


You mean dampeners on the tube?  To each his own, but I have never like what dampening devices (silicone rings, O rings, tube "coolers" (ha), even Herbies) do to the sound.  I've tried a number of them, and while they may improve certain aspects of the sound depending on the approach, overall they suck the life and drive out of the music. Just my opinion...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 22, 2020)

bcowen said:


> You mean dampeners on the tube?  To each his own, but I have never like what dampening devices (silicone rings, O rings, tube "coolers" (ha), even Herbies) do to the sound.  I've tried a number of them, and while they may improve certain aspects of the sound depending on the approach, overall they suck the life and drive out of the music. Just my opinion...



Really??

  Hmmmm...

What are your thoughts on barometric pressure's affect on a tube's sound? Do you prefer the sound when a Low pressure front blows in or a high pressure one?? Is their a target bar level for optimal sound? Have you taken steps to ensure an optimal listening environment and if so, wouldn't the air compressor in your living room detract from your musical enjoyment when it cuts on?


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> You mean dampeners on the tube?  To each his own, but I have never like what dampening devices (silicone rings, O rings, tube "coolers" (ha), even Herbies) do to the sound.  I've tried a number of them, and while they may improve certain aspects of the sound depending on the approach, overall they suck the life and drive out of the music. Just my opinion...


Been using Herbies for years, they help with microphonics. Didn`t take out the dampers in my DAC, quite the pain tube roling in my DAC. Took out the Herbies in my MJ2 and LP. I`m interested in hearing a difference without them. I do know the dampers tighten up the bass a bit.


----------



## Mr Trev (Feb 22, 2020)

bcowen said:


> You mean dampeners on the tube?  To each his own, but I have never like what dampening devices (silicone rings, O rings, tube "coolers" (ha), even Herbies) do to the sound.  I've tried a number of them, and while they may improve certain aspects of the sound depending on the approach, overall they suck the life and drive out of the music. Just my opinion...



You try a wad of Silly Putty yet?
From what I've heard, the fumes from the SP cooking on the tube really "enhance" your listening experience - they don't call it "Silly" for nothing

<standard disclaimer - don't try this at home kids. I can't be held responsible for anything that happens from trying to hot knife substances on their tube amps>


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> You try a wad of Silly Putty yet?
> From what I've heard, the fumes from the SP cooking on the tube really "enhance" your listening experience - they don't call it "Silly" for nothing
> 
> <standard disclaimer - don't try this at home kids. I can't be held responsible for anything that happens from trying to hot knife substances on their tube amps>



I listened to some Silly Putty for a couple hours once, but then @Ripper2860 had to go home.


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> Been using Herbies for years, they help with microphonics. Didn`t take out the dampers in my DAC, quite the pain tube roling in my DAC. Took out the Herbies in my MJ2 and LP. I`m interested in hearing a difference without them. I do know the dampers tighten up the bass a bit.



Herbies do the least damage, but I still prefer my tubes naked.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> I listened to some Silly Putty for a couple hours once, but then @Ripper2860 had to go home.



You didn't think I was going to leave my naked tubes with you unsupervised, did you?  Besides, you were already having way too much fun after finding out that you could use use your Silly Putty to transfer comic section pics from the news paper to your Big Chief tablet paper.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

I bought an old RCA 7N7  (pretty sure it's just old and not NOS). I did get an adapter so now I've got that cool adapter stack 
It doesn't sound great. Distorted and boring / flat. But perhaps distorted is another person's super warm.


----------



## bcowen

oakparkmusicguy said:


> I bought an old RCA 7N7  (pretty sure it's just old and not NOS). I did get an adapter so now I've got that cool adapter stack
> It doesn't sound great. Distorted and boring / flat. But perhaps distorted is another person's super warm.



Short bottle?  Those are pretty meh in my book.  I don't hear distortion necessarily in the ones I have, but they're pretty boring compared to better tubes.  A worn out tube could display both descriptors though regardless of the bottle size.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

It’s about the size of a 6SN7. I don’t think a casual listener would say it’s distorted but the clarity just isn’t there. And it’s definitely not as enjoyable as any of my other tubes or amps.


----------



## bcowen

oakparkmusicguy said:


> It’s about the size of a 6SN7. I don’t think a casual listener would say it’s distorted but the clarity just isn’t there. And it’s definitely not as enjoyable as any of my other tubes or amps.



It's a short bottle then.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Got an NOS Sovtek 6SN7... quick listen - sounds good. Clear and even.


----------



## Keno18

Went back to my old standby the Tung-Sol 6sn7gt  mouse ears.  Forgot how good it sounds in the Vali 2. Also had to switch from Qobuz to Amazon. The Qobuz app when trying to listen to a hi-res 192k 12 minute long track insists on first downloading the entire track instead of buffering. This causes two things to happen. The app forgets to play the track once downloaded so you have to hit the play button again and the download takes a few minutes to complete giving an unacceptable wait time. This wait time increases with track length. So if you've chosen Mahler's 9th you're in for a looonnnggg wait. Amazon OTOH starts almost immediately.


----------



## bcowen

Keno18 said:


> Went back to my old standby the Tung-Sol 6sn7gt  mouse ears.  Forgot how good it sounds in the Vali 2. Also had to switch from Qobuz to Amazon. The Qobuz app when trying to listen to a hi-res 192k 12 minute long track insists on first downloading the entire track instead of buffering. This causes two things to happen. The app forgets to play the track once downloaded so you have to hit the play button again and the download takes a few minutes to complete giving an unacceptable wait time. This wait time increases with track length. So if you've chosen Mahler's 9th you're in for a looonnnggg wait. Amazon OTOH starts almost immediately.



I really tried to like Qobuz as the sound quality was a little better than Tidal, but the user interface is SO horrible (compared to Tidal) I couldn't stand dealing with it and canceled the subscription.  I haven't given Amazon much of a try yet...


----------



## Kevwheez

bcowen said:


> I really tried to like Qobuz as the sound quality was a little better than Tidal, but the user interface is SO horrible (compared to Tidal) I couldn't stand dealing with it and canceled the subscription.  I haven't given Amazon much of a try yet...



I actually have been using Amazon’s HD music as my primary streaming source; I quite like it I must say. haven’t really dabbled with Tidal, but it seems to be the one many folks use.
I suppose for my gear and nearly 60-year old ears, it’s plenty good enough!

-Kev


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Kevwheez said:


> I actually have been using Amazon’s HD music as my primary streaming source; I quite like it I must say. haven’t really dabbled with Tidal, but it seems to be the one many folks use.
> I suppose for my gear and nearly 60-year old ears, it’s plenty good enough!
> 
> -Kev


Can you tell me more what you like about Amazon HD? I'm a prime member so the price on the Amazon seems good but I like the idea of the file quality of Qobuz. I currently do not subscribe to any music services as I have about 350gb of music... But hey it would be good to expand my musical horizons.


----------



## Kevwheez

oakparkmusicguy said:


> Can you tell me more what you like about Amazon HD? I'm a prime member so the price on the Amazon seems good but I like the idea of the file quality of Qobuz. I currently do not subscribe to any music services as I have about 350gb of music... But hey it would be good to expand my musical horizons.



I guess for me it is mostly the convenience and choice. I have a few albums (and adding more all the time) that I love for their warmth and analog nature and immersive listening experience. I also have quite a few CDs, but never ripped them to listen to digitally. That leaves streaming sources as my go to. I have had Apple music for a few years; given that I had already purchased/downloaded a ton of stuff when it was just iTunes, but once Apple music came out, I loved that I could simply download pretty much any music I wanted to to and listen to it for a pittance every month. So I did so; thousands and thousands of tunes/albums, etc. that I could listen to to my hearts content.

Then, like you, being a Prime member, I investigated their HD music option. Mostly after getting my "mid-fi" setup here at home. Before that, I listened mostly on my computer or through a sound bar (lame, I know - but hadn't taken my music as seriously for a while). Now after having a really nice set of speakers, turntable, a stack of Schiit components, and some sweet Sennheiser headphones, I realized that Apple's low music quality wouldn't cut it.

All that said, I loved the concept of having a subscription to a music service that allowed me to listen to what I knew I already loved (at a high quality bit rate) and the availability to listen to tons of other stuff whenever I came across it - the freedom to "rent" any music I desired is great for me at least. I love coming across an artist or hearing some song that I can just look up, download and listen to at will. Their HD stuff plays at 16 bit/44.1 kHz and their Ultra HD at 24 bit/44.1 kHz (FLAC codec). As I say; plenty good enough for me I suppose. Their subscription is basically the same as Apple music being a Prime member, so having millions of songs to choose from at pretty much the same price works for me.

I know it won't be the choice for everybody, but I have come to like it a lot in just 3 months or so.

-Kev


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Thank you for the info! Is it easy / possible to also but tracks in FLAC?


----------



## Kevwheez

oakparkmusicguy said:


> Thank you for the info! Is it easy / possible to also but tracks in FLAC?



Sure thing; can't quite understand your question though?


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Kevwheez said:


> Sure thing; can't quite understand your question though?


Just making sure I can get DRM free tracks in high quality... Gathering info before I subscribe 
Thank you!


----------



## Kevwheez

oakparkmusicguy said:


> Just making sure I can get DRM free tracks in high quality... Gathering info before I subscribe
> Thank you!



What I could quickly find on the web...
"One thing that sets Amazon apart in digital music sales is that it does not encode its music with digital rights management (DRM) protection. This means that after you purchase and download each track, you're not limited to playing it with Amazon's software"

Is that relate to what you you are asking?

-Kev


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Totally. Thanks!!!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 9, 2020)

Unless there has been a recent change, Amazon music purchase downloads are MP3 and not lossless FLAC.  Qobuz offers DRM-free lossless downloads of purchased music and you don't have to be a subscriber -- you just have to have an account w/ Qobuz.  Pricing is better if you are a subscriber, however.  

This does not apply to Amazon HD offline playback files as they are FLAC, but are not owned by the subscriber.


----------



## Kevwheez (Mar 9, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> Unless there has been a recent change, Amazon music purchase downloads are MP3 and not lossless FLAC.  Qobuz offers DRM-free lossless downloads of purchased music.  And you don't have to be a subscriber -- you just have to have an account w/ Qobuz -- but pricing is better if you are a subscriber.
> 
> This does not apply to offline playback files as they are FLAC, but are not owned by the subscriber.



I admit I could be completely wrong here; you guys know a lot more than I about this stuff. I know it says it's "playing" in lossless FLAC when I click on the little HD/UltraHD icon to indicate it's sound quality, but can't guarantee that the same holds true once it's downloaded.

Apologies for any wrong info I might have indicated!

-Kev


----------



## Kevwheez

And as I am doing more research on this, I "think" that the music on/from the Amazon HD music player/site, DOES indeed both play as well as download in FLAC format, but conceivably would "disappear" once you stopped your subscription. This is basically the same as Apple's Music concept (the whole "renting vs. buying" idea), which for someone like me is completely fine as I don't have the money, time or interest in purchasing the actual digital file by it from a CD or otherwise. Should I want a particular album, I am more inclined to buy it on vinyl now and happily stream the thousands of other stuff via my subscription - with the knowledge that I will "lose" it once I stop my monthly payments.

Again, this is how I think it works, but will defer to anyone that has more verifiable info than me!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 9, 2020)

That is correct.  My comments were related to PURCHASED music downloads, which is what I thought you were initially inquiring about.  If one does choose to download music from Amazon HD (or Tidal and Qobuz) for offline playback, it would be downloaded in lossless format and would playback on that device as long as that music is still available via Amazon HD service and as long as an active subscription is maintained.

I've found that at times music I liked was suddenly unavailable due to licensing / contract expiration matters (a bit like Netflix movies coming and going), so I always like the option to buy and DL music I really want to hang onto.


----------



## Kevwheez

Well, I just experienced my first "bum" tube.

Purchased a 7N7 from a guy on eBay and put it into the Vali and only one side of the headphones worked. Put in another that I have to confirm and it worked perfectly. I doubt I'll bother to return it as it only cost me about $10 (it was the one I purchased on Tuesday @bcowen - LOL!

So, being new to this hobby; is there any way to fix it or is it just DOA?

-Kev


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

I just got an old *Westinghouse 6CG7 *cheap on ebay... sounds good but for a few minutes had some static in the left side but it cleared up.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 12, 2020)

Kevwheez said:


> Well, I just experienced my first "bum" tube.
> 
> Purchased a 7N7 from a guy on eBay and put it into the Vali and only one side of the headphones worked. Put in another that I have to confirm and it worked perfectly. I doubt I'll bother to return it as it only cost me about $10 (it was the one I purchased on Tuesday @bcowen - LOL!
> 
> ...



Bummer.  But glad we didn't stomp all over each other going for it!  And as a strange coincidence? That Raytheon I got just came in today. One triode at 800 (a little better than average NOS), and the other triode at 400 (minimum good value).  Technically the seller was right -- it tests good, meaning only that it doesn't test bad. LOL!  Glad it was only $10.

If your tube has a dead or very low output triode, there's no fix for it. At a minimum though (if you haven't already) I'd give those pins a good cleaning. With the very small contact area of a 7N7 pin, it only takes a little crud to marginalize the electrical connection. Use some alcohol and scrub them good.  You may get lucky and find it was just some stuck on gunk that's interfering with the connection.


----------



## Kevwheez

bcowen said:


> Bummer.  But glad we didn't stomp all over each other going for it!  And as a strange coincidence? That Raytheon I got just came in today. One triode at 800 (a little better than average NOS), and the other triode at 400 (minimum good value).  Technically the seller was right -- it tests good, meaning only that it doesn't test bad. LOL!  Glad it was only $10.
> 
> If your tube has a dead or very low output triode, there's no fix for it. At a minimum though (if you haven't already) I'd give those pins a good cleaning. With the very small contact area of a 7N7 pin, it only takes a little crud to marginalize the electrical connection. Use some alcohol and scrub them good.  You may get lucky and find it was just some stuck on gunk that's interfering with the connection.



Good advice; I’ll give it a try and let you know if it does anything. As you say, for $10, there are bigger deals for sure!
Sorry to hear yours was kinda cruddy too!

-Kev


----------



## ScubaMan2017

GrouchoMarx1933 said:


> Subbed. I'll be picking up my Vali 2 today, and I've got an Electro-Harmonix 6CG7 (current production) on the way from Tube Depot. I have my eye on one or two NOS tubes as well, but I didn't want to order them yet, as they're more expensive, and I think two tubes is good enough to start.


You are in for a TREAT. My Vali came with some no-name NOS (no labels on the tubes). I ran out, purchased an adapter and tried out JJ-Electronics (Slovak company, new production, from Tube Depot [great vendor, btw]). I rocked that for several months. Recently, I purchased a MrSpeakers (DCA) Ether C headphone. I switched the fancy tube (from Tube Depot) and plugged the stock tube back in. Wow. It still sounds good. Welcome to the thread, @GrouchoMarx1933 .


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

The EH 6CG7 is a decent tube. Very clear. I like mixing it up with that and some other, warmer tubes. I kinda went a little overboard when I got my Vali 2 this year and bought 8 or so tubes including some 7N7 with lots of adapters. Fun!


----------



## Kevwheez

oakparkmusicguy said:


> The EH 6CG7 is a decent tube. Very clear. I like mixing it up with that and some other, warmer tubes. I kinda went a little overboard when I got my Vali 2 this year and bought 8 or so tubes including some 7N7 with lots of adapters. Fun!



I'm in the same boat as oakparkmusicguy above; picked up my Vali 2 amp a few months ago now and have nearly 15 or so different tubes to try out. A couple adapters for the smaller tubes and the larger 7N7/6SN7 ones as well. For a pretty small investment, it's a blast to swap them out and experiment - enjoy!

Cheers,
Kev


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Kevwheez said:


> I'm in the same boat as oakparkmusicguy above; picked up my Vali 2 amp a few months ago now and have nearly 15 or so different tubes to try out. A couple adapters for the smaller tubes and the larger 7N7/6SN7 ones as well. For a pretty small investment, it's a blast to swap them out and experiment - enjoy!
> 
> Cheers,
> Kev


Totally! It is a lot of fun and a fairly cheap hobby.


----------



## Mr Trev

oakparkmusicguy said:


> The EH 6CG7 is a decent tube. Very clear. I like mixing it up with that and some other, warmer tubes. I kinda went a little overboard when I got my Vali 2 this year and bought 8 or so tubes including some 7N7 with lots of adapters. Fun!


You're nowhere near overboard yet. Wait until you get 80+ tubes and just as many adapters. Just ask @bcowen


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Mr Trev said:


> You're nowhere near overboard yet. Wait until you get 80+ tubes and just as many adapters. Just ask @bcowen


Phew! Then I can go ahead and buy all the ones I've been looking at


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

bcowen said:


> Emojis quit working for me. If I insert one, the 'Post reply' button quits working. If I refresh the page, the emoji is inserted randomly somewhere in the text. If I delete it and insert a new one back where I want it, the post reply button is dead again. I finally just gave up.  From now on it's
> 
> I never had a problem with the stock knob on the Vali until I put this on, and immediately wished I'd done it sooner. Mucho more friendly ergonomically if you have big fingers (IMO).
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/ALCO-SOLID-ALUMINUM-KNOB-FOR-1-4-SHAFT-W-INDICATOR-LINE-NOS/333461831761?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


How does the original knob come off?


----------



## Kevwheez

oakparkmusicguy said:


> How does the original knob come off?



Mine simply pulled straight off; wasn't anchored on at all. Just make sure you dial it all the way down and try to match the same alignment of the mark if you put a new one on.

-Kev


----------



## bcowen

oakparkmusicguy said:


> How does the original knob come off?



As @Kevwheez notes, just pull it straight out and off. There are no setscrews. The bigger knob I bought for mine on Ebay has setscrews (2 actually) and the trick with those is to tighten them down until they're *just* snug.  If you get all Arnold with them, you'll likely end up torqueing the knob out of parallel with the chassis front. If it loosens later on, just snug 'em up again.

Interestingly, my Lyr 3 had a knob with a setscrew initially. I had to send it in due to a hum that developed after almost 2 years of bulletproof operation. They replaced the main board, and the new board uses a push-on knob.  Same size as the original, but no setscrew. No complaints -- they turned it around quickly and it's back to a hum-less state. And no headphones were harmed in the process.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> You're nowhere near overboard yet. Wait until you get 80+ tubes and just as many adapters. Just ask @bcowen



80 tubes is a good starting point.  I think I have close to 80 Fotons alone, but I'm not normal.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> As @Kevwheez notes, just pull it straight out and off. There are no setscrews. The bigger knob I bought for mine on Ebay has setscrews (2 actually) and the trick with those is to tighten them down until they're *just* snug.  If you get all Arnold with them, you'll likely end up torqueing the knob out of parallel with the chassis front. If it loosens later on, just snug 'em up again.
> 
> Interestingly, my Lyr 3 had a knob with a setscrew initially. I had to send it in due to a hum that developed after almost 2 years of bulletproof operation. They replaced the main board, and the new board uses a push-on knob.  Same size as the original, but no setscrew. No complaints -- they turned it around quickly and it's back to a hum-less state. And no headphones were harmed in the process.



Hmm. My Vali has a setscrew knob. Any ideas when they changed that up?



bcowen said:


> 80 tubes is a good starting point.  I think I have close to 80 Fotons alone, but I'm not normal.



You should offer your guidance to the newbies among us. Your Mr. Miyagi to our Karate Kid as it were…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Hmm. My Vali has a setscrew knob. Any ideas when they changed that up?



Have no idea. I'm on my second Vali 2.  Sold the first one to a friend when I got the Lyr 3, but then decided I couldn't live without it and bought another one from B-stock. The B-stock knob has no setscrew, but I don't honestly know if the first one had a setscrew because I never messed with it.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Neither my Magni or Vali have a set screw. No issues but I ordered two of those eBay knobs to try out.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Alright, this might come as a suprise (to nobody)... but... Damn! My Vali 2 with its stock tube (What?!) pairs nicely with my hoity toity, (March 2020 purchased) MrSpeakers (Dave Clark Audio) Ether C headphone. It's being fed by a Bifrost Multibit. 

_*I was considering picking up a B-stock Lyr 3*_... and now I'm wondering... meh. _Diminishing returns... I was blown away when I moved from a Magni to a Vali... and fooled around with a JJ Electronics tube. My Asgard 2 didn't wow me quite like my Vali. Weird._ *My point #1*: to potential Vali owners. Pick. It. Up. @Currawong was right on his February 2016 YouTube review = ...for that price, just try it. *My point #2:* different headphones are indeed tuned for different musical tastes (in my case, my Ether excels with tunes from Post Modern Jukebox [ragtime, big-band, swing]).

In case one hasn't seen this episode...


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> Have no idea. I'm on my second Vali 2.  Sold the first one to a friend when I got the Lyr 3, but then decided I couldn't live without it and bought another one from B-stock. The B-stock knob has no setscrew, but I don't honestly know if the first one had a setscrew because I never messed with it.


I'm pleased to see that knob modification. I still find their volume knobs too small for users like me (with a set screw, I can easily swap it out for a larger, more balanced dial).


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Mar 19, 2020)

I am using aune T1 DAC with my Vali 2. I am not using the amp part of T1, hence no use for its pot. So I swapped the knobs, they fit perfectly. Works for me.


----------



## Kevwheez

ScubaMan2017 said:


> I'm pleased to see that knob modification. I still find their volume knobs too small for users like me (with a set screw, I can easily swap it out for a larger, more balanced dial).



I love it as well; glad @bcowen mentioned it! The biggest advantage in my eyes (literally) is the visible line mark to let me know the volume level. I might paint my own on my Loki equalizer as those are even more dependent on seeing where the levels are. Even in a shot this close, I can't really tell where they might be set...


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Kevwheez said:


> I love it as well; glad @bcowen mentioned it! The biggest advantage in my eyes (literally) is the visible line mark to let me know the volume level. I might paint my own on my Loki equalizer as those are even more dependent on seeing where the levels are. Even in a shot this close, I can't really tell where they might be set...


Whoa! What adapter for 7A4 is this?


----------



## Kevwheez

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Whoa! What adapter for 7A4 is this?



It is one that a fellow forum member that @bcowen referred to me that originally created a direct 7N7 > 6922 adapter for the Vali. After I saw the price of the ones on the interwebz, I asked him if he could do one that directly connected the dual 7A4 tubes to it as well - and he delivered! 

@Deyan is the fellow; fantastic guy and a true pleasure to deal with!

-Kev


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Kevwheez said:


> I love it as well; glad @bcowen mentioned it! The biggest advantage in my eyes (literally) is the visible line mark to let me know the volume level. I might paint my own on my Loki equalizer as those are even more dependent on seeing where the levels are. Even in a shot this close, I can't really tell where they might be set...


Christ on a cracker! That's an impressive stack! For Schiits-and-giggles, I might try one of those dual-valve creations... eventually... on a separate Vali 2.x. I know users who use it... and like its effect. My bloody cats bang my gear around at night and I cringe at the sight of leaning towers. *One lesson I learned:* don't use electrical tape to secure Modi/EITR together or block out the LEDs. The residue makes the finish look like crap. I could use WD-40 to remove it... and be damn careful not to wipe away the unit's labels. _I really got carried away with the electrical tape... also on the LEDs during my ohmygodthey'retoobright phase. Silly_.


----------



## loveha (Mar 20, 2020)

Was at work a couple days ago, and I was making room for a part in the parts crib, and stuffed in a forgotten shelf at the top, I found a box of five GE 5814A tubes. No idea how old they are, but they are old boxes, faded, discolored and stuck together. The plant has been standing since the late 50's early 60's.

Anyways, did a lot of research on the 5814A, and didn't think they would work in the Vali 2. Nobody really mentions them, and wiring was slightly different to the E88CC. Currently listening to one of them to compare to the E88CC Gold Lion that has been in the amp for the past 5 years or so. Got to say, I have been listening to some Floyd, and it sounds good so far. I might keep one or two if they won't hurt my amp and sell the rest. Which brings me to ask, what would these go for?

Also found a GE 12 AL5? Can it be used for audio equipment at all? I just don't know anything about it, or any tubes in general to be honest. My hobbies move around as my needs and interests dictate and once I find something I like I tend to move on. So it has been a while since I have been on these forums.

Thanks!

Edit - Started swapping back and forth to the starting of Run Like Hell, and I want to say it sounds bassier with a little more mids. Highs are still up there though, the solo still cuts through your ear drums. Must explore more...

These are exactly what I found. http://www.hifitown.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29966


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Got those replacement knobs today. Awesome!!! Glad you posted them!


----------



## Mr Trev

oakparkmusicguy said:


> Got those replacement knobs today. Awesome!!! Glad you posted them!


Show us your knobs!! 
<sorry, I couldn't resist>


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Mr Trev said:


> Show us your knobs!!
> <sorry, I couldn't resist>


Ha!!


----------



## loveha

Replying to my own post, it warms up and works, but not enough power to drive them correctly. 

12v vs 6.3v heaters on pins 4 and 5 and pin 9 is off doing its own thing compared to the other. 

So, is there a Schiit that will use these 5814A tubes?


----------



## bcowen

loveha said:


> Replying to my own post, it warms up and works, but not enough power to drive them correctly.
> 
> 12v vs 6.3v heaters on pins 4 and 5 and pin 9 is off doing its own thing compared to the other.
> 
> So, is there a Schiit that will use these 5814A tubes?



Not a Schiit that I'm aware of....directly.  They'll work in several pieces of Schiit (including the Vali 2) with an adapter that wires the heater for 6.3 volts.  The 5814 is a 12AU7 variant, and the 12AU7, 12AT7, and 12AX7 can all operate at either 6.3 or 12.6 volts -- they just need to be wired appropriately. Adapters available on Ebay or from fellow HeadFi'er @Deyan.

The 12AL5 is a diode (rectifier) tube. Best not stick that in the Vali.


----------



## Mr Trev

loveha said:


> Replying to my own post, it warms up and works, but not enough power to drive them correctly.
> 
> 12v vs 6.3v heaters on pins 4 and 5 and pin 9 is off doing its own thing compared to the other.
> 
> So, is there a Schiit that will use these 5814A tubes?



What he said. ^^^.  I think the 5814A was the precursor of the 12AU7 - or maybe the military variant. 

I got one of the required adapters. Those tube types work good in the Vali2 - better than 6dj8, IMO.


----------



## loveha

Awesome, thanks for the help. I'll send Deyan a message then and get an adapter. Who can argue against 5 free tubes. I may part with two or three though. 

The 5814A is a military tube after the 12AU7. Good info on it in the link from my post further up.


----------



## timb5881 (Mar 24, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> What he said. ^^^.  I think the 5814A was the precursor of the 12AU7 - or maybe the military variant.
> 
> I got one of the required adapters. Those tube types work good in the Vali2 - better than 6dj8, IMO.


The 5814 is a military spec version of the 12AU7.   It is slightly different, but is considered an acceptable replacement.   I have a couple of the GE versions myself.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

timb5881 said:


> I have a couple of the GE versions myself.


 Now you are as good as dead - wait until Bill reads your post. Oh my, coronavirus, and now this.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Now you are as good as dead - wait until Bill reads your post. Oh my, coronavirus, and now this.



I hate to even say this because it will be assumed I've been infected with the virus, but GE 5814's aren't the worst 5814 around. The little bugger below exponentially expands the boundaries of nasty. It had to be designed by transistor engineers that were trying to increase sales.....of transistors. I saw a pair of these on Ebay a few weeks ago for $75, and some poor unknowing soul bought them.  I'm guessing his next purchase will be a solid state amp.


----------



## timb5881

bcowen said:


> I hate to even say this because it will be assumed I've been infected with the virus, but GE 5814's aren't the worst 5814 around. The little bugger below exponentially expands the boundaries of nasty. It had to be designed by transistor engineers that were trying to increase sales.....of transistors. I saw a pair of these on Ebay a few weeks ago for $75, and some poor unknowing soul bought them.  I'm guessing his next purchase will be a solid state amp.


I have a pair of those.  Give me your opinion in sound quality before I retry them.  I just found that I had them, must of had these for about 20 years.


----------



## bcowen

timb5881 said:


> I have a pair of those.  Give me your opinion in sound quality before I retry them.  I just found that I had them, must of had these for about 20 years.



Screechy, shouty, peaky, and ear-bleeding bright; lean and threadbare midrange with no harmonic info, warmth, or bloom; bass that extends OK but has no impact or weight to it. Other than that, they're fine.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 24, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Screechy, shouty, peaky, and ear-bleeding bright; lean and threadbare midrange with no harmonic info, warmth, or bloom; bass that extends OK but has no impact or weight to it. Other than that, they're fine.



So basically, they sound like your wife.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> So basically, they sound like your wife.



Ouch!  Even Philips ECG's aren't _that _bad.


----------



## Joe Garfield

Dammit! Someone bought those last 2 Brimars from USA.


----------



## Joe Garfield

Kevwheez said:


> I love it as well; glad @bcowen mentioned it! The biggest advantage in my eyes (literally) is the visible line mark to let me know the volume level. I might paint my own on my Loki equalizer as those are even more dependent on seeing where the levels are. Even in a shot this close, I can't really tell where they might be set...



Is that for music or TV?


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> Dammit! Someone bought those last 2 Brimars from USA.



Wasn't me.  Was probably @Ripper2860 . I heard he made a small fortune reselling toilet paper.  Pretty sure it was NOS, but haven't been able to verify that.


----------



## Joe Garfield




----------



## Ripper2860

BUSTED!


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


>



OK, so I'm a little slow.  No, wait:  I responded at work and was distracted.  No, wait: I viewed the post on my phone and that part got cut off. No, wait...you edited the original post to include that.  Yeah, that's it.  

No excuse though for ruining a good joke.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> OK, so I'm a little slow.  No, wait:  I responded at work and was distracted.  No, wait: I viewed the post on my phone and that part got cut off. No, wait...you edited the original post to include that.  Yeah, that's it.
> 
> No excuse though for ruining a good joke.



I'll go with excuse #1 - you're a little 'slow'.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll go with excuse #1 - you're a little 'slow'.



Don't your Barbies need sanitizing or something?


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm excepting donations of hand sanitizer.  It's not for me - it's for Barbie and eunuch Ken.


----------



## Joe Garfield

Guys, I might be becoming a tuboholic. I can’t stop thinking about the next fix: Crack or Schiit (Valhalla)?!


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm excepting donations of hand sanitizer.  It's not for me - it's for Barbie and eunuch Ken.


excepting or accepting?


----------



## oakparkmusicguy (Apr 7, 2020)

Hey everyone - I just bought a Magni 3+
So now I've got the Vali 2, Magni 3 and 3+
I'm really impressed with the 3+ !

Hey all -
I've gone down the Schiit rabbit hole and have the Vali 2, Magni 3, & Magni 3+.... and several SYS, 2 LOKI, and a WYRD for an easy USB switch. Many of these are B-stock as I love the deals.
Impressions:
The Vali 2 is a lot of fun! And I'm enjoying all the tube rolling to change it's sound profile.
The Magni 3 is a great and very capable amp.
The Magni 3+ is amazing!! 

Impressions & more info:
My first purchase was the Magni 3 a while a back. Love it. I got it at a B-stock price that was awesome. Sounds very good. Definitely a keeper.

Second purchase was the Vali 2. Another great amp with lots of power and I'm impressed with how much a single tube can make a difference. I like how different tubes can affect the bass and vocals.

Third purchase was Magni 3+ that I received yesterday. Initial impression: Wow, wow, wow, and more wow. Clearer than the Magni 3 and a bit louder. Noticeable less distortion at higher volumes. Not really noticeable under about about the 2 o'clock position. But I definitely need to more testing.
I compared with Sennheiser 6XX. But have several more headphones to try out.

Results? I'm keeping all of them.
Winner? Well depends. Vali 2 & 3+ are a tie just because they fill different roles.
Want a simple & super clear amp? 3+ is where it's at.
Vali 2 if you want to go tube (duh) and spend lots of time (and have fun) tube rolling with the ability to change sound profiles with different tubes.
Have a Magni 3? Keep enjoying it! Especially for the clearance price I have it on. 

I will continue to use my Vali 2 for gaming, TV setup, and miscellaneous fun listening.
I will use the 3+ for the ultimate in clinical (not saying sterile) listening as I'm a classical musician.
I will use the 3 in my practice studio as a workhorse for playing along with music and practice tools.


----------



## Ripper2860

oakparkmusicguy said:


> excepting or accepting?



Yo no type-o inglés.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Ripper2860 said:


> Yo no type-o inglés.


Oh!!! My apologies!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Ripper2860

Apology excepted.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Ha! I actually laughed out loud - Thank you!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Yo no type-o inglés.



Dang!!  You caught me totally off guard there.  I was *sure* you were going to blame it on your phone.


----------



## bcowen

oakparkmusicguy said:


> Vali 2 if you want to go tube (duh) and spend lots of time (and have fun) tube rolling with the ability to change sound profiles with different tubes.



Remind me again what the _other_ meaning of life was?   

Seriously, thanks for sharing your impressions!


----------



## bcowen (Apr 7, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> Yo no type-o inglés.



Coincidences abound!  I just scored two mega-roll 12 packs of toilet paper at Ingles.  

They don't even bother putting it on the shelf anymore and just roll the pallet of boxes out in the middle of the aisle...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 7, 2020)

The Dodge Caravan is a total chick-magnet!!  The Ingles ladies feel less threatened and exhibit a compelling attraction to a man that is sufficiently confident in their manhood to drive a mini-van.  Besides, it's a custom job -- waterbed, disco ball, kick-ass stereo, wet bar, and a roofies dispenser. 

Plus the fake arm cast I wear while pretending to struggle loading my groceries lures them like moths to a flame.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> The Dodge Caravan is a total chick-magnet!!  The Ingles ladies feel less threatened with a compelling attraction to a man that is sufficiently confident in their manhood to drive a mini-van.  Besides, it's a custom job -- waterbed, disco ball, kick-ass stereo, wet bar, and a roofies dispenser.
> 
> Plus the fake arm cast I wear while pretending to struggle loading my groceries lures them like moths to a flame.



I'm sure they come running to help.  Perhaps Barbie dolls aren't so bad after all?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 8, 2020)

That's it.  That's all you got??  I was really hoping for something requiring more creativity and a bit less cliche.     

BTW -- The arm cast thing was a Ted Bundy (not Al Bundy) ploy he used to lure young ladies in order to abduct them.  I'm sure that sailed right over your immense yet vacuous cranium.   

(Damn you.  There's no unseeing that!!)


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

So I got a Westinghouse 6CG7 today....
Anyone use one? What are your thoughts?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

oakparkmusicguy said:


> So I got a Westinghouse 6CG7 today....
> Anyone use one? What are your thoughts?


No one is thinking anything - lockdown. Or, should we do the roll call?


----------



## Mr Trev

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> No one is thinking anything - lockdown. Or, should we do the roll call?


Put me in the not thinking camp. - thinking will get you every time.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Mr Trev said:


> Put me in the not thinking camp. - thinking will get you every time.


@Mr Trev counted.


----------



## Ripper2860

I have nothing to say as I do not own that tube or a Vali 2.  I'm just here for the comradery and @bcowen 's abuse.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Ripper2860 said:


> I have nothing to say as I do not own that tube or a Vali 2.  I'm just here for the comradery and @bcowen 's abuse.


camaraderie is definitely good - one of the reasons I like to hang out here... oh and geek out about gear too


----------



## Ripper2860

Comraderie...

Another spell check fail.  Thanks Google.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Ripper2860 said:


> I have nothing to say as I do not own that tube or a Vali 2.  I'm just here for the comradery and @bcowen 's abuse.


@Ripper2860  counted


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

oakparkmusicguy said:


> camaraderie is definitely good - one of the reasons I like to hang out here... oh and geek out about gear too


@oakparkmusicguy counted


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> No one is thinking anything - lockdown. Or, should we do the roll call?



Thinking hurts, so I generally try and avoid it.  

But I just saw @oakparkmusicguy 's post...stupid me.  I got a couple of the Westinghouse 6CG7's a month or two ago. Very nice sounding, and I like it better than any of the 6922's or 6DJ8's I have except for the '50's Telefunken 6DJ8 which is pretty much unobtanium any more. To my ears, the Westinghouse is on par with the Brimar 6BQ7 -- different sound, but overall in the same league.  The Frankie 7N7 still takes top honors in the Vali 2 for me, but the Westinghouse is one of the better tubes I've tried in it so far.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Thinking hurts, so I generally try and avoid it.
> 
> But I just saw @oakparkmusicguy 's post...stupid me.  I got a couple of the Westinghouse 6CG7's a month or two ago. Very nice sounding, and I like it better than any of the 6922's or 6DJ8's I have except for the '50's Telefunken 6DJ8 which is pretty much unobtanium any more. To my ears, the Westinghouse is on par with the Brimar 6BQ7 -- different sound, but overall in the same league.  The Frankie 7N7 still takes top honors in the Vali 2 for me, but the Westinghouse is one of the better tubes I've tried in it so far.


@bcowen counted


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> @Ripper2860  counted



@Ripper2860 used a calculator.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> @Ripper2860 used a calculator.


Just doing an Appell, a bit of lagerordnung under lockdown, you see


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Just doing an Appell, a bit of lagerordnung under lockdown, you see



Yeah, I know, but if there was more than one response @Ripper2860  would still need a calculator.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I know, but if there was more than one response @Ripper2860  would still need a calculator.


----------



## Ripper2860

Naught plus naught equals naught.  Naught plus one equals...


Ok.  After tequila I do need to calc u later.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 10, 2020)

Practicing my Forum Social Distancing since @bcowen is not adhering to his states Shelter-at- Home declaration. Somehow he thinks his Fruit Flavored Personal Lube business is considered ESSENTIAL.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Practicing my Forum Social Distancing since @bcowen is not adhering to his states Shelter-at- Home declaration. Somehow he thinks his Fruit Flavored Personal Lube business is considered ESSENTIAL.



ROFL!   Of course it's essential!!  With everyone at home, what do you think they are doing?  The last thing we need is emergency rooms full of people with chafing injuries.  Geez.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

I really like the Westinghouse except it seems to lack gain. But it is more even sounding than a lot of tubes - it gives me the mids (vocals) plus nice bass.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 10, 2020)

oakparkmusicguy said:


> I really like the Westinghouse except it seems to lack gain. But it is more even sounding than a lot of tubes - it gives me the mids (vocals) plus nice bass.



That's due to the design of that tube type. Depending on which data sheet you look at, a 6BZ7 (which Vali 2's normally come with from Schiit) has an amplification factor of 36.  Pretty much the same for a 6BQ7.  A 6922?  About 35.  6DJ8? About 33. The 6CG7?  20.  Much the same as a 6SN7 which is what the 6CG7 mostly is, just in a 9 pin bottle instead of an octal.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Thinking hurts, so I generally try and avoid it.
> 
> But I just saw @oakparkmusicguy 's post...stupid me.  I got a couple of the Westinghouse 6CG7's a month or two ago. Very nice sounding, and I like it better than any of the 6922's or 6DJ8's I have except for the '50's Telefunken 6DJ8 which is pretty much unobtanium any more. To my ears, the Westinghouse is on par with the Brimar 6BQ7 -- different sound, but overall in the same league.  The Frankie 7N7 still takes top honors in the Vali 2 for me, but the Westinghouse is one of the better tubes I've tried in it so far.



Details on the Westie?
I've found both Canadian made cleartops (I'm assuming RCA made) and black-plates. Still haven't bought any more… sooo lazy - I mean, shipping's all wonky with the Covid


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Details on the Westie?
> I've found both Canadian made cleartops (I'm assuming RCA made) and black-plates. Still haven't bought any more… sooo lazy - I mean, shipping's all wonky with the Covid



Interestingly, the two I got are different. The seller didn't claim them to be a matched pair, or even a pair for that matter -- just two tubes. Both test great, and for $12.51 delivered for the two of them I'm not complaining.   The one on the right has the Reliatron labeling and the bottle is a little larger in diameter. Micas are different, but both have top horseshoe getters and other than the color of the plates, the structure and the shapes look to be identical. The Reliatron labeled one sounds a little better to me, but not a big difference between them and I honestly haven't spent a huge amount of time with either one of them.









Looked at the other 6CG7's I have and these don't match up substantially with any of them: Sylvanias, RCAs, Raytheons, (thankfully not) GE's, Amperex, or even 80's vintage Ei's.  Possible Westinghouse actually made them?  

RCA chrome dome left, Westinghouse (Reliatron) center, and RCA cleartop right:


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 11, 2020)

The Reliatron 6CG7 looks an awful lot like the coveted 50's D getter  | Black Ladder off-set plates version of the Westinghouse Reliatron 6SN7GTB.  In-fact even the mica looks the same.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> The Reliatron 6CG7 looks an awful lot like the coveted 50's D getter  | Black Ladder off-set plates version of the Westinghouse Reliatron 6SN7.  In-fact even the mica looks the same.



Great.  Now I have to go back upstairs and pull out a WH-D 6SN7 to compare them.  Your interference with my attempted laziness is noted for future repercussion.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> The Reliatron 6CG7 looks an awful lot like the coveted 50's square getter  | Black Ladder off-set plates version of the Westinghouse Reliatron 6SN7GTB.  In-fact even the mica looks the same.



Well to your credit (ouch!) they are quite similar. The plates are nearly the same -- the 6CG7 plates lack the rolled edges of the 6SN7, but that's probably due to the bottle size constraints. The plates in the 6CG7 are actually offset too, just not as much (space constraints again), and of course the 6CG7 has the shield between the plates as it should where the 6SN7 doesn't. Getter shapes are different with the 6SN7 having the D shape where the 6CG7 is more of a traditional horseshoe shape...but the weld points and attachment points are very similar.  As I have an adapter for the Lyr 3, I guess now I'll have to go to even further non-laziness extremes and compare the two sonically.  Hmmm...is the $6.25 6CG7 a WH-D 6SN7 in disguise?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 11, 2020)

Your pics certainly show the diff in getter holder shape (new phone?), but hey it's just a holder and doesn't contribute to the sound, right?  I'll be interested to read your findings.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 11, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> Your pics certainly show the diff in getter holder shape (new phone?), but hey it's just a holder and doesn't contribute to the sound, right?  I'll be interested to read your findings.



No, same phone I've used for the last 1k pictures. Perhaps I'm just getting less inept at using it. 

You're correct of course that the getter shape has nothing to do with the sound in and of itself. But IMO (and this is truly just my opinion with no basis in fact that I'm aware of), the getter shape in the specific type from a specific manufacturer is more indicative of when it was manufactured. As you already know with the Amperex 6DJ8's (as an example), the D-getter versions are the most desirable and sound better than the large or small halo getter and especially more better than the windmill getter versions. Same manufacturer obviously, and I'm assuming the getter shape was changed over the years with the D-getter years being the most preferred.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

$11 shipped from eBay.


----------



## bcowen

oakparkmusicguy said:


> $11 shipped from eBay.



$11 shipped?  Man, you scooped me.  Good job!


----------



## bcowen

Honey-do list permitting, I'll give these a laughably pseudo-expert comparison this evening in the Lyr 3. I chose the Coronado labeled WH-D as its GM readings are nearly identical to the 6CG7 where the Westinghouse labeled one was about 10% lower on both triodes. But no worries -- it is identical internally to the WH in every detail.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Honey-do list permitting, I'll give these a laughably pseudo-expert comparison this evening in the Lyr 3. I chose the Coronado labeled WH-D as its GM readings are nearly identical to the 6CG7 where the Westinghouse labeled one was about 10% lower on both triodes. But no worries -- it is identical internally to the WH in every detail.


Lyr 3!??
Chuck 'em in your Vali2 and stay on topic!!!


----------



## Ripper2860

What topic?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Lyr 3!??
> Chuck 'em in your Vali2 and stay on topic!!!



Oh, quit whining.   I only listen to the Vali 2 on occasion and I'm far more tuned to the sound of the Lyr. For a comparison like this, using what I'm most familiar with makes the most sense.  Not that I have sense of course, but @Ripper2860 told me to and I always do what he says.


----------



## Ripper2860

Finally!  Now we're getting somewhere.


----------



## TK16

What up guys? Posting because I got about 6,000 emails in the last few days notifying every post here, try keeping down to 5,000 and under. Thanks!


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> What up guys? Posting because I got about 6,000 emails in the last few days notifying every post here, try keeping down to 5,000 and under. Thanks!



TK!  Where 'ya been, man?  Good to see you. Any new tubes we need to know about?


----------



## Ripper2860

@TK16 - who are you and what have you done with the real TK16!?


----------



## TK16

Ripper2860 said:


> @TK16 - who are you and what have you done with the real TK16!?


It's me guys, wanted to share this fantastic pair, seller offered 28% discount. May not work in the vast majority of Schiit amps though or NONE  of em.
@bcowen heard these are better than any GE tubes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RD12Tf-Lor...rentrq:6ade5e9f1710a1293111ce4bffea5f42|iid:1


----------



## bcowen

TK16 said:


> It's me guys, wanted to share this fantastic pair, seller offered 28% discount. May not work in the vast majority of Schiit amps though or NONE  of em.
> @bcowen heard these are better than any GE tubes.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RD12Tf-Lorenz-Tube-Valve-Roehre-Power-Amplifier-2-pcs-Triode-Tested-Transmitting/274097143196?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=225074&meid=03d45dcb7f2a42bd9e62f51b5c965853&pid=100678&rk=1&rkt=4&mehot=none&sd=274097143196&itm=274097143196&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100678.m3607&_trkparms=pageci:a1d6e1a0-7c30-11ea-921b-3627c76f5ab0|parentrq:6ade5e9f1710a1293111ce4bffea5f42|iid:1



ROFL!  That looks like a purse for one of @Ripper2860 's 'Future Barbie' dolls.


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> TK!  Where 'ya been, man?  Good to see you. Any new tubes we need to know about?
> [/QUOTE
> I lied I got a Heerlen PW PCC88 1957 that are quite lush in the sound sig. $85 bucks and bought a Hamburg PCC88 PW 1957 1 single test balanced strong. I think some Ebay sellers are fudging the testing numbers to appear more balanced. No other purchases since December.


----------



## bcowen

I think some Ebay sellers don't have the slightest clue how to operate a tester, and the other some bought a cheap emission tester on Ebay that hasn't been calibrated or brought up to spec since it was new 60 years ago and is probably half functioning at best.  And then there's the some that just state 'tested' or 'tests good' with no test numbers. Tests good just means it doesn't test bad, not like it tests like NOS and could easily be 50 hours away from _not_ testing good. And those same some probably don't even know what NOS means, and to them GM is a brand of automobiles.   I bought (supposedly) a Chatham 6AS7G a few weeks ago. Nice pictures of the Chatham box, and a nice picture of the top of the tube. I didn't have any so didn't know exactly what they were supposed to look like. $45 Buy It Now which was a great price for a Chatham (a Tung Sol brand and a very desired tube of that type), but not in the "too good to be true" range. I got it a week later, and inside was a very nice RCA 6AS7G. Nothing wrong with the RCA's, but you can buy them all day long for less than $20. I messaged the seller, and he refunded my money nearly instantly and said don't worry about sending the RCA back. In other words, he knew damn well it wasn't a Chatham in the box to begin with. And yes, I left him negative feedback because I'm tired of the fraudsters. Full stop. End of rant.  

There are still some good Ebay sellers, but they seem to be getting fewer and further between...


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

What would happen if you put the wrong type of tube in the Vali?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

oakparkmusicguy said:


> What would happen if you put the wrong type of tube in the Vali?


Depends on what you consider "wrong type"...


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Like putting a 5670 without the adapter.


----------



## bcowen

oakparkmusicguy said:


> Like putting a 5670 without the adapter.



In general, the wrong tube type put in any component can result in anything from no sound to bad sound to dead component to instant or premature death of the tube.

Specific to the 5670 in the Vali without adapter, at minimum you would get no sound as there would be no voltage to the filaments (the Vali puts voltage to pins 4 and 5 for the filaments and the 5670 needs that voltage on pins 1 and 9).  No heat from the filaments (heaters), no electron flow.  Not sure if it would result in damage to the Vali (or the tube) but I'd suggest _*not*_ trying it to find out.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

oakparkmusicguy said:


> Like putting a 5670 without the adapter.


Schiit website suggests: "Pretty much any tube with a 6DJ8 pinout, 6V heater, and 600mA or less of heater current will work fine in Vali 2." Some people here - including myself - have taken it a step further, using adapters from whatever (octal, loctal, other noval pinouts, twin/dual single triode to double triode), but I have always maintained 6V and <600mA rule.


----------



## SomedoodIV

So I've been playing around with my Vali 2 and a handful of some (cheaper) tubes and I've been having some good fun noticing small differences between them. The included (no name?) One was the worst I think, after letting it heat up for a 30 minutes it sounded... Underwhelming. I also have an EH 6922 and 6cg7, both of which sound ok, clear voices and mids, but lacking. And a Sylvania 6dj8, the best of them all, great bass and mids but lacked most all treble. 
I've got a Westinghouse 6cg7 coming soon now I'll experiment with too.
I feel like I'm starting to run amok with buying cheap tubes now, is it worth it to keep experimenting with cheaper tubes or focus on finding one good tube? Preferably before I have a dragons hoard of tubes lol. I see a lot of talk about the frankentube 7n7, and haven't seen one in any searches, and some other gems.


----------



## Mr Trev

SomedoodIV said:


> So I've been playing around with my Vali 2 and a handful of some (cheaper) tubes and I've been having some good fun noticing small differences between them. The included (no name?) One was the worst I think, after letting it heat up for a 30 minutes it sounded... Underwhelming. I also have an EH 6922 and 6cg7, both of which sound ok, clear voices and mids, but lacking. And a Sylvania 6dj8, the best of them all, great bass and mids but lacked most all treble.
> I've got a Westinghouse 6cg7 coming soon now I'll experiment with too.
> I feel like I'm starting to run amok with buying cheap tubes now, is it worth it to keep experimenting with cheaper tubes or focus on finding one good tube? Preferably before I have a dragons hoard of tubes lol. I see a lot of talk about the frankentube 7n7, and haven't seen one in any searches, and some other gems.



There's plenty o good cheap tubes out there. No shame in buying them. My personal philosophy has been "never pay more for a tube than I paid for the amp"

btw… welcome to the madness.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

SomedoodIV said:


> So I've been playing around with my Vali 2 and a handful of some (cheaper) tubes and I've been having some good fun noticing small differences between them. The included (no name?) One was the worst I think, after letting it heat up for a 30 minutes it sounded... Underwhelming. I also have an EH 6922 and 6cg7, both of which sound ok, clear voices and mids, but lacking. And a Sylvania 6dj8, the best of them all, great bass and mids but lacked most all treble.
> I've got a Westinghouse 6cg7 coming soon now I'll experiment with too.
> I feel like I'm starting to run amok with buying cheap tubes now, is it worth it to keep experimenting with cheaper tubes or focus on finding one good tube? Preferably before I have a dragons hoard of tubes lol. I see a lot of talk about the frankentube 7n7, and haven't seen one in any searches, and some other gems.


Welcome to the club of broken wallets  you can see some of my favourites in my signature


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> There's plenty o good cheap tubes out there. No shame in buying them. My personal philosophy has been "never pay more for a tube than I paid for the amp"
> 
> btw… welcome to the madness.



With a philosophy like_ that_, we're going to have to review your Elite status at the next Tube Spendthrifts Association board meeting.  So the economy is shot all to hell and all, but what possible difference can that make when tubes are involved?


----------



## Mr Trev (Apr 15, 2020)

bcowen said:


> With a philosophy like_ that_, we're going to have to review your Elite status at the next Tube Spendthrifts Association board meeting. So the economy is shot all to hell and all, but what possible difference can that make when tubes are involved?


You're right. I feel utterly ashamed.
As penance I bought these over-priced pieces of junk: https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Vintage-...V-Radio-Reception-Valve-BangyBan/303346506217
At least Bangy promised to put a good word in with the Association for me.


----------



## SomedoodIV

Vali tube rolling newbie adventure update: Found i liked the Vali best with the EH 6cg7 tube and tried it side by side with a loaned magni 3+ and almost liked it better. Then i got a westinghouse 6cg7 and gave it a shot and WOAH. Everything sounds a bit more "alive"?
I might be hooked.


----------



## bcowen

SomedoodIV said:


> Vali tube rolling newbie adventure update: Found i liked the Vali best with the EH 6cg7 tube and tried it side by side with a loaned magni 3+ and almost liked it better. Then i got a westinghouse 6cg7 and gave it a shot and WOAH. Everything sounds a bit more "alive"?
> I might be hooked.



The more appropriate term is "addicted."  My condolences to your wallet.

Welcome to the loony bin.


----------



## KoshNaranek

@bcowen 

Have you tried the new production JJ red and gold 6922 tubes? If so, what is your opinion?


----------



## bcowen

KoshNaranek said:


> @bcowen
> 
> Have you tried the new production JJ red and gold 6922 tubes? If so, what is your opinion?




I have not.  I've tried the new production JJ 6SN7.  It's OK, but merely OK at least in comparison to the better NOS tubes.


----------



## KoshNaranek

bcowen said:


> I have not.  I've tried the new production JJ 6SN7.  It's OK, but merely OK at least in comparison to the better NOS tubes.


I did not think much of the 6SN7 either. Perhaps I could convince you to try them? I would be interested in your opinion.


----------



## bcowen

KoshNaranek said:


> I did not think much of the 6SN7 either. Perhaps I could convince you to try them? I would be interested in your opinion.



My other name is Mikey, and I'll try anything. 

Assuming they're cheap enough, because I'm generally cheap.   Where did you get yours?


----------



## KoshNaranek

bcowen said:


> My other name is Mikey, and I'll try anything.
> 
> Assuming they're cheap enough, because I'm generally cheap.   Where did you get yours?


Tube depot or eurotubes. Whichever was cheaper. 

I am frugal but not cheap. (Although my son frequently makes bird like "cheap" "cheap" noises in my direction)


----------



## bcowen

KoshNaranek said:


> Tube depot or eurotubes. Whichever was cheaper.
> 
> I am frugal but not cheap. (Although my son frequently makes bird like "cheap" "cheap" noises in my direction)



OK, just ordered a pair of the gold pins from Eurotubes.  $28 each which isn't bad at all. Tube Depot had the red label and a "Black Sable" version (whatever that is) at $110/pair which was more than I wanted to spend.  Film at 11, or whenever they get delivered.


----------



## SomedoodIV

Now im really digging how this tungsol 6sn7gtb sounds, sounds slightly less punchy but with a wider soundstage. Despite that it looks kind of like a silly lighthouse on my desk with a spacer and adapter.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

I have several 6SN7 tubes - JJ, TungSol, EH, & Sovtek (i think it's a Sovtek - not labeled).... They all sound pretty similar but the Sovtek was my favorite out of those. They're all decent tubes. The Tungsol seems a bit bright.

Yesterday I received a Coronado 6CG7. The 6CG7 tubes have sounded pretty good. I have 2 Westinghouse - one really old and one that doesn't look as old. The old one isn't great and pretty dark sounding (which I kinda like when gaming). The newer one sounds very good - very even throughout the range and good bass.

The Coronado I just plugged in. I bought just because I saw the brand name somewhere in these threads 
Anyways - sounds just fine.
My two go-to test tracks are NIN Head Like A Hole and the pizzicato movement from Tchaikovsky's 4th symphony. I like using the NIN track because his layers are so distinct that you easily tell how the bass, mids / vocals, and treble are. The Tchaik is nice to hear clarity and attack of notes.

After my very critical 10 seconds of listening I like the tube... But I'll give it some time.

I'm finding a lot depends on the speakers / headphones... Of course.
Through the headphones (6XX, 58X, DT 990... several others but those are my go to) I didn't care for my 5670 tubes - seemed bright and thin. However through my Mackie studio monitors they sounded quite good and surprisingly punchy.

FWIW I'm having a lot of fun cycling through the tubes, headphones, speakers, etc.

For DACs I have a Schiit Fulla 2 and an RHA. I use the RHA for my TV since it has an optical in. I use the Fulla 2 for everything else. Oh I have a Shanling player with the same AKM4490 chips as the Fulla 2 but I just use that as a standalone player.


----------



## bcowen

oakparkmusicguy said:


> I have several 6SN7 tubes - JJ, TungSol, EH, & Sovtek (i think it's a Sovtek - not labeled).... They all sound pretty similar but the Sovtek was my favorite out of those. They're all decent tubes. The Tungsol seems a bit bright.
> 
> Yesterday I received a Coronado 6CG7. The 6CG7 tubes have sounded pretty good. I have 2 Westinghouse - one really old and one that doesn't look as old. The old one isn't great and pretty dark sounding (which I kinda like when gaming). The newer one sounds very good - very even throughout the range and good bass.
> 
> ...



One of the (favored) Westinghouse D-getter 6SN7's I have is labeled as Coronado.  Quite possible that Coronado 6CG7 was made by Westinghouse too.  Compare the internals with your other WH 6CG7's and see if they look the same.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

bcowen said:


> One of the (favored) Westinghouse D-getter 6SN7's I have is labeled as Coronado.  Quite possible that Coronado 6CG7 was made by Westinghouse too.  Compare the internals with your other WH 6CG7's and see if they look the same.


They do look similar!


----------



## KoshNaranek

bcowen said:


> OK, just ordered a pair of the gold pins from Eurotubes.  $28 each which isn't bad at all. Tube Depot had the red label and a "Black Sable" version (whatever that is) at $110/pair which was more than I wanted to spend.  Film at 11, or whenever they get delivered.


Thank you for indulging me. I most interested in how you think they compare with other 6922 tubes. I am trying to avoid the ARR(Adapter Related Rabbithole)


----------



## bcowen

KoshNaranek said:


> Thank you for indulging me. I most interested in how you think they compare with other 6922 tubes. I am trying to avoid the ARR(Adapter Related Rabbithole)




JJ 6922 with the gold pins here and getting some break-in time.  Got two, and I'm happy to report they both test quite nicely -- high GM and well balanced triodes. Want to give it at least 5 hours of play time before any critical listening, so hopefully be able to give it some ear time late this evening or tomorrow sometime. Frankie whined like a little baby when it got pulled out. Stupid spoiled tubes...


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> JJ 6922 with the gold pins here and getting some break-in time.  Got two, and I'm happy to report they both test quite nicely -- high GM and well balanced triodes. Want to give it at least 5 hours of play time before any critical listening, so hopefully be able to give it some ear time late this evening or tomorrow sometime. Frankie whined like a little baby when it got pulled out. Stupid spoiled tubes...


Ah, those JJs. The seller I bought my amp from included one of those. Decent enough. Definitely better than the other tubes that were included (stock & a philips ecg)


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Ah, those JJs. The seller I bought my amp from included one of those. Decent enough. Definitely better than the other tubes that were included (stock & a philips ecg)



LOL!  Rumor has it that a titanium drill bit spinning at 10k RPM's jammed forcefully into your eardrums is less painful than a Philips ECG.


----------



## ChrisR2040

Hello, I am new to this forum, and I just received the vali-2 amp this weekend!
SO I am really happy.  It makes my headphones sound really good with tidal tracks, especially my sony 7506.
Also received a little stereo amp for my totem hawks el34 / 12ax7 - my first tube amp ever!  Not an all lot of power but just fine for mid-field listening.

I'll be reading through the many posts to learn more about the various tubes available... It is exciting!


----------



## bcowen

ChrisR2040 said:


> Hello, I am new to this forum, and I just received the vali-2 amp this weekend!
> SO I am really happy.  It makes my headphones sound really good with tidal tracks, especially my sony 7506.
> Also received a little stereo amp for my totem hawks el34 / 12ax7 - my first tube amp ever!  Not an all lot of power but just fine for mid-field listening.
> 
> I'll be reading through the many posts to learn more about the various tubes available... It is exciting!



Welcome!  Just so you're aware, the Vali 2 is a gateway amp.  You know, kinda like a gateway drug. But it's a perfect implement for establishing early-onset tube rolling addiction. The Force won't help with that, just in case you were planning on using it later.   

Seriously, the Vali 2 is (IMO) one of the biggest bangs for the buck in audioland.  Good choice!


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

I just got a Sylvania 5670. Sounds good. Seems pretty even through sounds a little better through my 58X than 6XX. 
Inexpensive. Still need to try it through my speakers.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

ChrisR2040 said:


> Hello, I am new to this forum, and I just received the vali-2 amp this weekend!
> SO I am really happy.  It makes my headphones sound really good with tidal tracks, especially my sony 7506.
> Also received a little stereo amp for my totem hawks el34 / 12ax7 - my first tube amp ever!  Not an all lot of power but just fine for mid-field listening.
> 
> I'll be reading through the many posts to learn more about the various tubes available... It is exciting!


Welcome to the weeds, @ChrisR2040 . I purchased my Vali 2 shortly after my Magni. And it's a dandy little toaster. The only craptastic aspect of these mini-wonders is the teeny tiny, slick volume knobs.  I ended up removing them and adding surplus microscope knobs (with bits of felt underneath them to ensure smooth spinning). It'll never be as smooth tracking as my Valhalla 2 or Asgard 2; however, it drives my cans without issue.


----------



## bcowen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Welcome to the weeds, @ChrisR2040 . I purchased my Vali 2 shortly after my Magni. And it's a dandy little toaster. The only craptastic aspect of these mini-wonders is the teeny tiny, slick volume knobs.  I ended up removing them and adding surplus microscope knobs (with bits of felt underneath them to ensure smooth spinning). It'll never be as smooth tracking as my Valhalla 2 or Asgard 2; however, it drives my cans without issue.



I'll have to say that the Vali 2 is not only the least expensive tube amp I've ever purchased, it's also the smallest and lightest....and punches way higher than its price OR its weight. 

My days of slinging around 90 pound monoblocks is over...I'm too old and far too lazy.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

ChrisR2040 said:


> Hello, I am new to this forum, and I just received the vali-2 amp this weekend!
> SO I am really happy.  It makes my headphones sound really good with tidal tracks, especially my sony 7506.
> Also received a little stereo amp for my totem hawks el34 / 12ax7 - my first tube amp ever!  Not an all lot of power but just fine for mid-field listening.
> 
> I'll be reading through the many posts to learn more about the various tubes available... It is exciting!


Welcome, @ChrisR2040 ! Vali 2 has turned out my endgame and tube rolling remains an awesome experience. You can learn from my mistakes clicking on the link in my signature, if you wish.


----------



## Kevwheez

Hey there, ODD - I hope you are safe and healthy where you are at!

I had wanted to ask if you ever looked into the same dual adapter that I had @Deyan create for me a few weeks ago? It has been working great for me and I believe it was you who had asked about it. Same goes for @bcowen I guess as well! 

Cheers,
Kev


----------



## bcowen

Kevwheez said:


> Hey there, ODD - I hope you are safe and healthy where you are at!
> 
> I had wanted to ask if you ever looked into the same dual adapter that I had @Deyan create for me a few weeks ago? It has been working great for me and I believe it was you who had asked about it. Same goes for @bcowen I guess as well!
> 
> ...



I haven't ordered one of those from him. I'm still a month behind listening to stuff I already have adapters for.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Kevwheez said:


> Hey there, ODD - I hope you are safe and healthy where you are at!
> 
> I had wanted to ask if you ever looked into the same dual adapter that I had @Deyan create for me a few weeks ago? It has been working great for me and I believe it was you who had asked about it. Same goes for @bcowen I guess as well!
> 
> ...


If a Vali 2 ever comes on sale (or gets even cheaper as a close-out), I might just pick one up, bolt on the dual-valve adapter, and see what all the fuss is about. About a week ago, I pulled off the JJ 6SN7 + converter-adapter and its lopsided socket saver, and replaced it with a 6N1P tube that came with my Valhalla 2. I lucked out. I can't detect any channel imbalance. And the Cyrillic writing on the glass makes me smile. I muse about how this tube could have been used on a Soviet-era military device. It also has a more pleasant glow than my boring 6SN7. Sound quality? Well, it sounds... fine? 
I haven't seen any magic blue smoke, so I'm assuming I'm not trashing my amp... 

I found ODD's link and it helped me chose tubes from Tube Depot. It's well written.


----------



## Kevwheez

As I'm still in my 1st year of ownership of my Vali, and just a newb to this entire tube rolling hobby, my opinions are to be taken with a pretty small grain of salt I suppose. I have thoroughly enjoyed researching and experimenting with the dozen or so different tubes I've purchased thus far. All fairly cheap in the grand scheme of things (unlike, say, additional drivers to add to my set of golf clubs or additions/modifications to my mountain bike or car)!
And who knows - a lot might be wishful thinking or unintended bias in whatever tube I am currently utilizing - but the single octel tubes in that adapter and ESPECIALLY the Frankentube definitely seem to add to the auditory experience to my aged ears. I am a "gear" guy, so I enjoy trying these new tubes every now and then, if only just to tinker. At the end of the day, I'm just happy about all the wonderful advancements that have become available; whether they are outstanding yet easily affordable tube amps like this one or sonically awesome headphones and bookshelf sized speakers so I can enjoy all the great music I love without spending a king's ransom!

-Kev


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Kevwheez said:


> Hey there, ODD - I hope you are safe and healthy where you are at!
> 
> I had wanted to ask if you ever looked into the same dual adapter that I had @Deyan create for me a few weeks ago? It has been working great for me and I believe it was you who had asked about it. Same goes for @bcowen I guess as well!
> 
> ...


Nope, sorry, COVID and all. BTW, which one was that?


----------



## Kevwheez

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Nope, sorry, COVID and all. BTW, which one was that?



It was this one...


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Kevwheez said:


> It was this one...


2 x 7A4 to 6922?


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Ok where to we buy that awesome adapter?


----------



## Deyan

oakparkmusicguy said:


> Ok where to we buy that awesome adapter?



I'm making them.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Price?


----------



## Deyan

oakparkmusicguy said:


> Price?



38$ with shipping included.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

How is the sound improvement with it?


----------



## Kevwheez

ODD - Yes, that is the configuration.

@Deyan - glad you saw this! I continue to be very happy with both this dual as well as the 7N7 adapter you did for me as well. To all that see this, Deyan is a great guy, quality adapters and both shipped out and arrived REALLY quickly! Mucho recommend!

oakparkmusicguy - I can't speak for anyone else's ears but mine - but the two tube configurations I have been listening to over the past couple months have been this one and his 7N7 adapter - glorious sound! 

-Kev


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

I have 7N7 adapter... pretty sure he built it... I don't like the 7N7 tube I have but the adapter is well made.
@Deyan - sure, why not! send me the details / payment info.


----------



## bcowen

oakparkmusicguy said:


> I have 7N7 adapter... pretty sure he built it... I don't like the 7N7 tube I have but the adapter is well made.
> @Deyan - sure, why not! send me the details / payment info.



But do you have *this* 7N7 adapter?  @Deyan made it in one piece for the Vali 2 (no socket saver/extender needed). Love it.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Yep and the same knob


----------



## bcowen

oakparkmusicguy said:


> Yep and the same knob



You're flyin' in First Class, man.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

bcowen said:


> You're flyin' in First Class, man.


----------



## Deyan

oakparkmusicguy said:


> I have 7N7 adapter... pretty sure he built it... I don't like the 7N7 tube I have but the adapter is well made.
> @Deyan - sure, why not! send me the details / payment info.



So I take I should make you one?


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Deyan said:


> So I take I should make you one?


Yes please


----------



## Deyan

oakparkmusicguy said:


> Yes please



OK i'll make it and then we will settle the payment.


----------



## Deyan

Well @oakparkmusicguy there it is. 








The bottom plug can rotate in order to fit the layout of the amp.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Looks like a fun new toy! Message me details and I'll pay and give shipping info. Thank you!


----------



## Gazny

Curious if anyone has experience with bent 9 pins. Been locking for a solution.
Anyone think this is a good purchase?


----------



## pbgalvin

I hate to admit it, but I didn't really all 362 screens of this thread.
Hoping for the reader's digest version.
Just got my first Schiit (MODI multibit and VALI 2) and interested in tube rolling.
Is there any "consensus" about  the "best" tubes options?
Skimming, seems the Sylvania 6DJ8 / ECC88 might be a good lowish-cost option? Any other "best"? 
Thanks!


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

I've been really pleased with the sound on 6CG7 tubes - especially Westinghouse & Coronado. Although I really like the looks of my 6SN7 tubes and adapter I've found those to be rather treble heavey and thin sounding.

Through my speakers I don't mind the cheap 5670 tubes.

6CG7 are definitely my favorites so far.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

pbgalvin said:


> I hate to admit it, but I didn't really all 362 screens of this thread.
> Hoping for the reader's digest version.
> Just got my first Schiit (MODI multibit and VALI 2) and interested in tube rolling.
> Is there any "consensus" about  the "best" tubes options?
> ...


6SN7, 7N7 and also single triodes through appropriate adapters. Some 6C8G. Read the link in my signature, there are some tubes I like


----------



## bcowen

Deyan said:


> Well @oakparkmusicguy there it is.
> 
> 
> The bottom plug can rotate in order to fit the layout of the amp.



Sweet!


----------



## bcowen

Gazny said:


> Curious if anyone has experience with bent 9 pins. Been locking for a solution.
> Anyone think this is a good purchase?



These work better.  Seriously.


----------



## timb5881

bcowen said:


> These work better.  Seriously.


While that works, it may make things worse.   Buy a 9 pin socket cheap, and use it.  Just insert the tube and they will come out straight.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 9, 2020)

bcowen said:


> These work better.  Seriously.


The man asked for help about straightening tube pins, not about smoking a 'J'.  Pay attention, for Pete's sake.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> The man asked for help about straightening tube pins, not about smoking a 'J'.  Pay attention, for Pete's sake.



It's a multipurpose tool.  Duh.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Ripper2860 said:


> The man asked for help about straightening tube pins, not about smoking a 'J'.  Pay attention, for Pete's sake.


It's always fun when people say for Pete's sake... that's my name and I'm always like, huh? what? no, I'm fine.. thanks


----------



## KoshNaranek

oakparkmusicguy said:


> It's always fun when people say for Pete's sake... that's my name and I'm always like, huh? what? no, I'm fine.. thanks


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

KoshNaranek said:


>



Exactly


----------



## Bassic Needs

Have a Vali 2 on order. I'd like to drive some planar headphones. I'd like to select a tube that won't negatively affect bass performance. If anything, a tube that could enhance it. Any suggestions?


----------



## MrPanda

Bassic Needs said:


> Have a Vali 2 on order. I'd like to drive some planar headphones. I'd like to select a tube that won't negatively affect bass performance. If anything, a tube that could enhance it. Any suggestions?


Which planars are you using?  I like both the stock RCA tube and EH 6922


----------



## TS0711

I have the Russian 6922EH, which sounds wonderful with everything including the Drop Hifiman HE-4xx... Nice entry level planers for $130ish.
Enjoy!


----------



## MrPanda

TS0711 said:


> I have the Russian 6922EH, which sounds wonderful with everything including the Drop Hifiman HE-4xx... Nice entry level planers for $130ish.
> Enjoy!


Plus, the 6922EH has a nice little tube glow


----------



## Bassic Needs

MrPanda said:


> Which planars are you using?  I like both the stock RCA tube and EH 6922



I will probably run Vali 2 with Monoprice M1060C at office, and Lyr 3 with Hifiman Anandas at home. Some of this stuff is still in the mail, so I could change my mind over time once I see and hear it.


----------



## MrPanda

Bassic Needs said:


> I will probably run Vali 2 with Monoprice M1060C at office, and Lyr 3 with Hifiman Anandas at home. Some of this stuff is still in the mail, so I could change my mind over time once I see and hear it.


I'm curious about the planars... I only have 400i's and Dekoni Blue - Mobius by Audeze too, but that's a different thing


----------



## Bassic Needs

Is it worth choosing and paying for "balanced triodes" on some of these seller's sites? And especially for new production tubes (as in 6SN7 tubes for Lry 3.  Not sure if new production exists in the 6922 category...?)


----------



## bcowen

Bassic Needs said:


> Is it worth choosing and paying for "balanced triodes" on some of these seller's sites? And especially for new production tubes (as in 6SN7 tubes for Lry 3.  Not sure if new production exists in the 6922 category...?)



With a single tube design like the Vali 2 or Lyr 3 where one triode in the tube is used for the left channel and the other for the right, there could be some value in paying a nominal upcharge to assure the triodes have decently balanced GM if you don't have a tube tester to verify for yourself. Even new production tubes can have a big variance in emission or GM between the two triodes. But they should specify what constitutes a 'balanced' tube from their perspective (usually as a percentage variance between the triodes), and if it's more than 10% I wouldn't personally consider that to be very well balanced.  With a variance of 10% or less it's unlikely that it will be audible. More than that and it could be and manifested as channel imbalance depending on the overall emission output of the triodes (which will of course decline over time).


----------



## Denosha

Running a EH 6922 Gold on mine. Sounds really sweet with both my LCD2 and Arya. And basically everything else i throw at it actually..


----------



## Grado Diesel

Just downloaded Sticky Fingers Deluxe and Let It Bleed 50th anniversary last night on HD Tracks with their killer sale prices. Both of these albums were only available at 44.1kHz 24 bit. I’m playing them thru my FiiO X3ii into my Vali 2 into my Sennheiser HD6XX’s. I noticed these recordings sound “hot” right at the edge of distortion, sometimes actually distorting and sounding saturated. For comparison I‘ve previously loaded both those albums to flac 44.1kHz 16 bit from the CDs. I noticed those are much cleaner and sound  great. What’s the deal with these 44.1kHz 24 bit tracks? I rolled different tubes - mouse ears, chrome dome, 6CG7 EHX gold pin and settled on my E88CC Genelex Gold Lion as it seemed to handle this hotness the best but I’m still puzzled over the distortion.


----------



## Mr Trev

Grado Diesel said:


> Just downloaded Sticky Fingers Deluxe and Let It Bleed 50th anniversary last night on HD Tracks with their killer sale prices. Both of these albums were only available at 44.1kHz 24 bit. I’m playing them thru my FiiO X3ii into my Vali 2 into my Sennheiser HD6XX’s. I noticed these recordings sound “hot” right at the edge of distortion, sometimes actually distorting and sounding saturated. For comparison I‘ve previously loaded both those albums to flac 44.1kHz 16 bit from the CDs. I noticed those are much cleaner and sound  great. What’s the deal with these 44.1kHz 24 bit tracks? I rolled different tubes - mouse ears, chrome dome, 6CG7 EHX gold pin and settled on my E88CC Genelex Gold Lion as it seemed to handle this hotness the best but I’m still puzzled over the distortion.


Granted, this is just speculation on my part since I haven't heard either version, but…
Welcome to The Loudness Wars.
Typically every reissue/remaster is just an excuse to dynamically compress the bejeesus out of the recording (read: make it louder) now a days. Quite often the recordings get so compressed they start to clip, which could explain the distortion you're hearing.


----------



## Mr Trev

Are these things even remotely worth the asking price?
Seriously, that's Bangy money…
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/6cg7-Marcon...lve-rca-sylvania-lot-12bh7-12au7/254410615802


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Are these things even remotely worth the asking price?
> Seriously, that's Bangy money…
> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/6cg7-Marcon...lve-rca-sylvania-lot-12bh7-12au7/254410615802



LOL!  Value is, of course, a personal perspective kind of thing, but I would go away quietly with the guys in white jackets if I was ever caught spending $800 on a pair of 6CG7's (yeah, there's $50 in there for the actual $15 in shipping cost).  I've seen a number of that seller's ads, and his prices are beyond ridiculous in every case.  He should consider changing his seller name to 'I'm_high_tubes'.


----------



## Kevwheez

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Value is, of course, a personal perspective kind of thing, but I would go away quietly with the guys in white jackets if I was ever caught spending $800 on a pair of 6CG7's (yeah, there's $50 in there for the actual $15 in shipping cost).  I've seen a number of that seller's ads, and his prices are beyond ridiculous in every case.  He should consider changing his seller name to 'I'm_high_tubes'.


Yeah, that is other worldly kind of stuff! Whether it’s the Franken tubes that be Bcowen turned me onto or the 7A4’s that Old Deaf Donkey loves, they’re both more than enough for me; and at $10 a pop why would I spend hundreds an hundreds more?


----------



## Joe Garfield

Hard to spend that kind of money when you can get imported Italian macaroni for $2.50 at the grocery store.


----------



## bcowen

Kevwheez said:


> Yeah, that is other worldly kind of stuff! Whether it’s the Franken tubes that be Bcowen turned me onto or the 7A4’s that Old Deaf Donkey loves, they’re both more than enough for me; and at $10 a pop why would I spend hundreds an hundreds more?



This is more in line with my wallet.


----------



## Kevwheez

bcowen said:


> This is more in line with my wallet.


Funny that the shipping is half-again the price of the tube itself! LOL
FYI - I purchased my 4th Frankie earlier this week; I think I’m good for a while!😉

-Kev


----------



## bcowen

Kevwheez said:


> Funny that the shipping is half-again the price of the tube itself! LOL
> FYI - I purchased my 4th Frankie earlier this week; I think I’m good for a while!😉
> 
> -Kev



Here's another pair with a much better price-to-shipping cost ratio. LOL!

I like the way the prices are moving on these...may have a better return than Amazon stock if at some point I decide to down-stash.


----------



## evanescent (Aug 17, 2020)

I've picked up a Vali 2 and bunch of tubes. Also a Magni to compare it to a solid state benchmark.

I set up a mixing deck that let me switch between the two amplifiers, including switching individual channels. Like Schiit's own blind test experiments, and a few others who've written here, I found the differences barely perceptible. That's after rolling through around a dozen different tubes such as 6CG7's, E88CCs, 6BQ7As from Genalex, Mullard, Amperex and Brimar and even a WE396A. The differences are there - and they are very visible using frequency analysis software - but they are very subtle to my hearing. Frequency analysis shows the Vali and the cleanest tubes have a massive amount of noise compared to the Magni, but it's not perceptible to me on any of my headphones.

To help me appreciate tube differences, I'd like to a really bad or strange sounding tube, or a few of them for comparison. No one markets their ebay offerings that way! And the local audio stores weren't keen on passing on dud tubes.

Would anyone have suggestions on how to get some truly bad or strange sounding tubes to roll through my Vali 2?


----------



## Mr Trev (Aug 17, 2020)

evanescent said:


> I've picked up a Vali 2 and bunch of tubes. Also a Magni to compare it to a solid state benchmark.
> 
> I set up a mixing deck that let me switch between the two amplifiers, including switching individual channels. Like Schiit's own blind test experiments, and a few others who've written here, I found the differences barely perceptible. That's after rolling through around a dozen different tubes such as 6CG7's, E88CCs, 6BQ7As from Genalex, Mullard, Amperex and Brimar and even a WE396A. The differences are there - and they are very visible using frequency analysis software - but they are very subtle to my hearing. Frequency analysis shows the Vali and the cleanest tubes have a massive amount of noise compared to the Magni, but it's not perceptible to me on any of my headphones.
> 
> ...



If you go by what @bcowen claims, all you need to do is buy GE and Philips ECG tubes. You'll be all set for bad.

The only GE I have is a 5670, quite bright. I do have a ECG 6dj8, pretty meh.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> If you go by what @bcowen claims, all you need to do is buy GE and Philips ECG tubes. You'll be all set for bad.
> 
> The only GE I have is a 5670, quite bright. I do have a ECG 6dj8, pretty meh.



I find most GE tubes to suffer from either a case of meh (bland, boring, lifeless, and about as musical as a clump of dirt), or shrill and fatiguing with no bass. Usually one or the other, but one day I'm sure I'll hear one that has both traits. Philips ECG's, OTOH, are downright nasty, unless of course you like harsh, grating, spitty sound that makes you wish you'd bought a solid state amp.     Any 6SN7, 6922, or 5814 (12AU7 variant) with the blue print are good examples.


----------



## evanescent

@mrtrev, @bcowen You seem to be pointing me to tube makes that aren't to your taste. That's not really what I had in mind, although I appreciate you must have been disappointed by your experiences. The Philips ECGs are also listed on ebay at $50 a piece, so someone likes them.

I'd like to get hold of individual tubes that have clearer faults like very strong 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th harmonics, high distortion, high noise or massive gaps/ spikes in frequency response. Target price is free + shipping.


----------



## bcowen

evanescent said:


> @mrtrev, @bcowen  The Philips ECGs are also listed on ebay at $50 a piece, so someone likes them.



Yes, people that don't know any better. Some equate "vintage" and "NOS" with desirable, even when they're not.  




evanescent said:


> I'd like to get hold of individual tubes that have clearer faults like very strong 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th harmonics, high distortion, high noise or massive gaps/ spikes in frequency response. Target price is free + shipping.



Tubes with such aberrations were very likely thrown away 50 or 60 years ago.


----------



## Mr Trev

@bcowen 

So following this current discussion, how much difference do you find between tubes? (considering you can pull yourself away from your fancy Paladin amp and even use the lowly V2 now)? @evanescent experience isn't the first time I've read that. Ages ago I remember somebody here got 2 Vali2s, built a switching mechanism to compare different tubes OTF and basically couldn't tell a difference. Barring that ECG, I know I'd never be able to differentiate my 6dj8s. I can hear a difference switching _types_ of tubes, but really nothing if I keep it in the family. I'm assuming that a lot of this is due to Schiit using negative feedback in the amp.
Maybe we need to start nagging @Paladin79 to build a hybrid along the same lines as his other amp?

Cheers


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> @bcowen
> 
> So following this current discussion, how much difference do you find between tubes? (considering you can pull yourself away from your fancy Paladin amp and even use the lowly V2 now)? @evanescent experience isn't the first time I've read that. Ages ago I remember somebody here got 2 Vali2s, built a switching mechanism to compare different tubes OTF and basically couldn't tell a difference. Barring that ECG, I know I'd never be able to differentiate my 6dj8s. I can hear a difference switching _types_ of tubes, but really nothing if I keep it in the family. I'm assuming that a lot of this is due to Schiit using negative feedback in the amp.
> Maybe we need to start nagging @Paladin79 to build a hybrid along the same lines as his other amp?
> ...


Hybrid did you say??? Could I not just go in for a root canal instead?


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Hybrid did you say??? Could I not just go in for a root canal instead?



Awwww, c'mon! I'll be your friend!

Since none of my cans are remotely high impedance enough to use an OTL amp, finding a hybrid that showcases the 6sn7 like your amp does would be ideal (nevermind the fact most hybrids don't even use octal tubes).
But fine, if you're that set against hybrid, make mine OTC.

Another question for anybody who wants to answer…
I wasn't around during the golden age of tubes (or even pre-Solid State for that matter). Was tube rolling a even a thing back then? Did somebody like Mullard market their tubes as " Like a warm British jacket of the finest tweed, these glorious tubes have an attractive sweet warmth in their midrange and lower regions." <quote from Brent Jesse>. Or did folks simply regard them like light-bulbs and you just bought whatever was available?


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Awwww, c'mon! I'll be your friend!
> 
> Since none of my cans are remotely high impedance enough to use an OTL amp, finding a hybrid that showcases the 6sn7 like your amp does would be ideal (nevermind the fact most hybrids don't even use octal tubes).
> But fine, if you're that set against hybrid, make mine OTC.
> ...


The OTL I designed is working with 38 ohm cans, (Ripper), and I am using Focal Utopias, 80 ohm I believe, Alpha Primes, maybe 50 ohms, and Oppo PM1's which are 32 ohm I believe with a sensitivity of 102 db. I made an amp, according to those who have heard it that showcases the 6sn7 without doing a hybrid amp. I a trying to wind down my builds and in doing so the last five or six amps will get some exceptional parts that I need to use up. To date I have donated seven of the amps but @bcowen  is the only recipient of a free one on this site. Now I have made some adjustments and @Ripper2860 is the only one here who can comment on the changes and SQ.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 18, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> The OTL I designed is working with 38 ohm cans, (Ripper)



35 ohm Hifiman Arya -- but what's 3 ohms between friends?


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> 35 ohm Hifiman Arya -- but what's 3 ohms between friends?


I forgot the Oppo was 32 ohms lol, it sounds fine as well. You need to get busy annoying Bill, as I recall your amp cabinet is rainbow poplar, a first.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> @bcowen
> 
> So following this current discussion, how much difference do you find between tubes? (considering you can pull yourself away from your fancy Paladin amp and even use the lowly V2 now)? @evanescent experience isn't the first time I've read that. Ages ago I remember somebody here got 2 Vali2s, built a switching mechanism to compare different tubes OTF and basically couldn't tell a difference. Barring that ECG, I know I'd never be able to differentiate my 6dj8s. I can hear a difference switching _types_ of tubes, but really nothing if I keep it in the family. I'm assuming that a lot of this is due to Schiit using negative feedback in the amp.
> Maybe we need to start nagging @Paladin79 to build a hybrid along the same lines as his other amp?
> ...



Well, I hear far more difference between tubes in @Paladin79 's amp than I do in the Vali 2. Or the Lyr 3 (also a hybrid) for that matter.  But I also used the Lyr 3 for the blind challenge @Paladin79 created (with the PVC tubes), and I heard distinct differences between all the tubes. I honestly haven't rolled a lot in the Vali 2, but from the tubes I have rolled they all have their distinct character. Night and day?  No.  Audible?  Yes, to me anyway.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Another question for anybody who wants to answer…
> I wasn't around during the golden age of tubes (or even pre-Solid State for that matter). Was tube rolling a even a thing back then? Did somebody like Mullard market their tubes as " Like a warm British jacket of the finest tweed, these glorious tubes have an attractive sweet warmth in their midrange and lower regions." <quote from Brent Jesse>. Or did folks simply regard them like light-bulbs and you just bought whatever was available?



Interesting question.  I have no idea.  Even though I'm old, I'm not *that* old. 

One thing that's for sure is they didn't have transducers (either headphones or loudspeakers) that are even close to what we have now. Could they have even heard a difference if one existed?  

Maybe tube rolling started when the great manufacturers exited the business and we were left with the garbage Chinese and Russian tubes of the '80's and '90's.  ???


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I forgot the Oppo was 32 ohms lol, it sounds fine as well. You need to get busy annoying Bill, as I recall your amp cabinet is rainbow poplar, a first.



Yeah, spill the beans, @Ripper2860 .  I must know if I need to send my free amp in for a free upgrade.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yeah, spill the beans, @Ripper2860 .  I must know if I need to send my free amp in for a free upgrade.


Bill have you learned nothing from your drug dealings? Sometimes things are free at first and then reality sets in and you realize you now have to pay for your fun?  Geesh!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill have you learned nothing from your drug dealings? Sometimes things are free at first and then reality sets in and you realize you now have to pay for your fun?  Geesh!



I *never* give drugs away for free.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 18, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I *never* give drugs away for free.


Let me get a few more reactions to my changes they I will have a better idea of what kind of price to charge lol. Maybe Ripper can drag a few people in off the street and I can count them as well. There are bound to be a few homeless people hanging around his place just hoping he nods off on the front porch so they can swipe the Lone Star beer can out of his hand. They should count.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 18, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Yeah, spill the beans, @Ripper2860 .  I must know if I need to send my free amp in for a free upgrade.



Ya do!!  Although that's like putting lipstick on a pig in your case.  



Paladin79 said:


> Maybe Ripper can drag a few people in off the street and I can count them as well.



My Chihuahua and American Red Heeler concur that it is a notable step up.  But I didn't micro-manage the build and force @Paladin79 to deviate from his design parameters electronically (or aesthetically) like some here did.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Let me get a few more reactions to my changes they I will have a better idea of what kind of price to charge lol. Maybe Ripper can drag a few people in off the street and I can count them as well. There are bound to be a few homeless people hanging around his place just hoping he nods off on the front porch so they can swipe the Lone Star beer can out of his hand. They should count.



LOL!  But I think even the homeless people are scared of visiting Ripper's house.  He would definitely have to drag them in.


----------



## Ripper2860

More $$$ for gear.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> The OTL I designed is working with 38 ohm cans, (Ripper), and I am using Focal Utopias, 80 ohm I believe, Alpha Primes, maybe 50 ohms, and Oppo PM1's which are 32 ohm I believe with a sensitivity of 102 db. I made an amp, according to those who have heard it that showcases the 6sn7 without doing a hybrid amp. I a trying to wind down my builds and in doing so the last five or six amps will get some exceptional parts that I need to use up. To date I have donated seven of the amps but @bcowen  is the only recipient of a free one on this site. Now I have made some adjustments and @Ripper2860 is the only one here who can comment on the changes and SQ.





Ripper2860 said:


> 35 ohm Hifiman Arya -- but what's 3 ohms between friends?



Cool. So, OTL can deal with planar and other low impedance phones. I assume the amp need to be designed for it tho…

For what it's worth, I can assure you that one of your creations, in my possesion, would never be subjected to Marilyn Manson.
I'm a Nine Inch Nails kinda guy


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Cool. So, OTL can deal with planar and other low impedance phones. I assume the amp need to be designed for it tho…
> 
> For what it's worth, I can assure you that one of your creations, in my possesion, would never be subjected to Marilyn Manson.
> I'm a Nine Inch Nails kinda guy


Well with that assurance I will charge @bcowen extra and deduct it from the price of your amp.


----------



## SomedoodIV

After a few months with it, I still can't find a tube or reason to remove my cheap little westinghouse 6gc7 "grey ladder", it just sounds great. A little mid focused, but everything is just so crystal clear and punchy. Easily my favorite, but considering if the d-getter black plates version of it is really that much different or better.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Interesting question.  I have no idea.  Even though I'm old, I'm not *that* old.
> 
> One thing that's for sure is they didn't have transducers (either headphones or loudspeakers) that are even close to what we have now. Could they have even heard a difference if one existed?
> 
> Maybe tube rolling started when the great manufacturers exited the business and we were left with the garbage Chinese and Russian tubes of the '80's and '90's.  ???



Didn't mean to imply you guys are old… or did I…

So, not even by the time the mid-60s rolled around was gear adequate for critical listening? Maybe I need to start some research into bachelor pad hi-fi. Anybody got some old Playboys to donate? (for the articles, of course)


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 22, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> Didn't mean to imply you guys are old… or did I…
> 
> So, not even by the time the mid-60s rolled around was gear adequate for critical listening? Maybe I need to start some research into bachelor pad hi-fi. Anybody got some old Playboys to donate? (for the articles, of course)



You have to remember that early on some of the key players were Dyncaco and Klipsch. I would still own a pair of La Scala's to this day and I want to say that design is from around 64, Klipsch corner speakers even older. Folded horn design, natural amplification. Add a class A tube amp to those, and you were getting some great sound. Maybe a Thorens turntable.  At one point Dynaco sold more speakers than anyone in the world and Klipsh has been building since the forties, some of the same speakers.

A friend gave me early Dynaco tube gear in the 70's and I have been trying to duplicate some of that sound to this day. My original Incubus comes pretty close. @FLTWS described it as coming from that era if I recall, when he first heard one. People still hunt down the old Dynaco tube gear. Think they would do that for no reason lol?


----------



## Mr Trev (Aug 22, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> You have to remember that early on some of the key players were Dyncaco and Klipsch. I would still own a pair of La Scala's to this day and I want to say that design is from around 64, Klipsch corner speakers even older. Folded horn design, natural amplification. Add a class A tube amp to those, and you were getting some great sound. Maybe a Thorens turntable.  At one point Dynaco sold more speakers than anyone in the world and Klipsh has been building since the forties, some of the same speakers.
> 
> A friend gave me early Dynaco tube gear in the 70's and I have been trying to duplicate some of that sound to this day. My original Incubus comes pretty close. @FLTWS described it as coming from that era if I recall, when he first heard one. People still hunt down the old Dynaco tube gear. Think they would do that for no reason lol?



I know there is still a strong market for that vintage gear. A while back Stereophile even did some "re-reviews" of some of it. I'd like to own some myself one day, but for now I'll have to settle for the early 80s vintage Sansui component stack I got from my parents.

OK, then back to my original question. Were folks back then into tube rolling, or did they just buy whatever works/manf. recommended?
Almost seems to me like rolling is a relatively recent passion (within the last 20 years?). When I first got into the hobby (late 80s-early 90s), reading reviews of tube gear in Audio and Stereophile, switching tubes was rarely mentioned (or if it was I just wasn't paying attention).
Of course there are those that dismiss it completely, but that's another discussion


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I know there is still a strong market for that vintage gear. A while back Stereophile even did some "re-reviews" of some of it. I'd like to own some myself one day, but for now I'll have to settle for the early 80s vintage Sansui component stack I got from my parents.
> 
> OK, then back to my original question. Were folks back then into tube rolling, or did they just buy whatever works/manf. recommended?
> Almost seems to me like rolling is a relatively recent passion (within the last 20 years?). When I first got into the hobby (late 80s-early 90s), reading reviews of tube gear in Audio and Stereophile, switching tubes was rarely mentioned (or if it was I just wasn't paying attention).
> Of course there are those that dismiss it completely, but that's another discussion


I really never heard of much tube rolling back then so my guess is that it is more recent. That is why I do blind and double blind testing on tubes. Tubes build a following or their prices sky rocket and there is an anticipation factor when you pay a large amount for a tube. Rarity can drive up a price but if you pick a $20 tube blind ahead of those going for $250 up, that in itself should tell you something.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> Rarity can drive up a price but if you pick a $20 tube blind ahead of those going for $250 up, that in itself should tell you something.



I'm gonna assume that you don't mean that perhaps that person is likely going deaf and should find another hobby.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm gonna assume that you don't mean that perhaps that person is likely going deaf and should find another hobby.



If you're gonna talk about me you could at least put my name in there.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You have to remember that early on some of the key players were Dyncaco and Klipsch. I would still own a pair of La Scala's to this day and I want to say that design is from around 64, Klipsch corner speakers even older. Folded horn design, natural amplification. Add a class A tube amp to those, and you were getting some great sound. Maybe a Thorens turntable.  At one point Dynaco sold more speakers than anyone in the world and Klipsh has been building since the forties, some of the same speakers.
> 
> A friend gave me early Dynaco tube gear in the 70's and I have been trying to duplicate some of that sound to this day. My original Incubus comes pretty close. @FLTWS described it as coming from that era if I recall, when he first heard one. People still hunt down the old Dynaco tube gear. Think they would do that for no reason lol?



I kind of forgot about Klipsch. Not my cup of tea, but no question they were resolving enough.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm gonna assume that you don't mean that perhaps that person is likely going deaf and should find another hobby.


I believe a lot of people say they hear this or that to fit in. Eliminate expectations and then see which tubes you like.


----------



## bcowen (Aug 22, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> I know there is still a strong market for that vintage gear. A while back Stereophile even did some "re-reviews" of some of it. I'd like to own some myself one day, but for now I'll have to settle for the early 80s vintage Sansui component stack I got from my parents.
> 
> OK, then back to my original question. Were folks back then into tube rolling, or did they just buy whatever works/manf. recommended?
> Almost seems to me like rolling is a relatively recent passion (within the last 20 years?). When I first got into the hobby (late 80s-early 90s), reading reviews of tube gear in Audio and Stereophile, switching tubes was rarely mentioned (or if it was I just wasn't paying attention).
> Of course there are those that dismiss it completely, but that's another discussion



I still have no answer for your question, but another thing to consider is what we refer to as NOS and pay big dollars for were simply "new" tubes back then that you could buy off the shelf at a drugstore...and were probably the stock tubes that came with the component.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I kind of forgot about Klipsch. Not my cup of tea, but no question they were resolving enough.


They have the longest continual production of any speaker made. Maybe they are doing something right lol.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I still have no answer for your question, but another thing to consider is what we refer to as NOS and pay big dollars for were simply "new" tubes back then that you could buy off the shelf at a drugstore.


We created some of the market, someone had a bunch of Sylvanias, called them Bad-Boys and it took off not all that long ago.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> They have the longest continual production of any speaker made. Maybe they are doing something right lol.



Well, Bose sells a schiitload of speakers too....


----------



## evanescent

Mr Trev said:


> OK, then back to my original question. Were folks back then into tube rolling, or did they just buy whatever works/manf. recommended?



Many, if not all of the tubes discussed here were not made for audio amplification. They were designed and used for radio signal amplification and have been repurposed. So no historical rolling based on audio characteristics.

Read all about it...
6dj8 
396a


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 23, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Well, Bose sells a schiitload of speakers too....


apples and oranges. Beats probably outnumber most brands of headphones.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> apples and oranges. Beats probably outnumber most brands of headphones.



So a lack of taste is apparently a mass affliction?  Whew...I feel more normal now.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So a lack of taste is apparently a mass affliction?  Whew...I feel more normal now.


Ok this is off subject but have you ever felt your headphones were restricting the high frequencies or maybe an amp was, and you finally hit that ceiling?  I tried to describe it once as just feeling I needed better headphones. With the changes I made to my amp and when using Focal Utopias, it is like high frequencies keep climbing without restrictions. Is there a term for this, and no fair making something up. lol


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok this is off subject but have you ever felt your headphones were restricting the high frequencies or maybe an amp was, and you finally hit that ceiling?



No.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 23, 2020)

bcowen said:


> No.


You are a wealth of information at times lol. This is not dynamic range of course and Marilyn Manson does not play the violin I would think so maybe it has to do with music choices.   I have one particular test track we use for blind testing that really shows off this dynamic. With most equipment it sounds fine but with the right combination it is like the highs keep climbing till you can no longer hear those frequencies yet you know they are there. More of a natural taper. I am probably better off talking to Finnegan about this lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You are a wealth of information at times lol. This is not dynamic range of course and Marilyn Manson does not play the violin I would think so maybe it has to do with music choices.   I have one particular test track we use for blind testing that really shows off this dynamic. With most equipment it sounds fine but with the right combination it is like the highs keep climbing till you can no longer hear those frequencies yet you know they are there. More of a natural taper. I am probably better off talking to Finnegan about this lol.



But Finnegan loves Marilyn Manson. He's just too afraid to tell you.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Yes, people that don't know any better. Some equate "vintage" and "NOS" with desirable, even when they're not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What about listining to Vali 2 without any tube at all, for a really bad sound?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Maybe tube rolling started when the great manufacturers exited the business and we were left with the garbage Chinese and Russian tubes of the '80's and '90's. ???


That is what Wikipedia suggests. I am not old enough in my experience with the tubes (donkey enough though) to remember.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm gonna assume that you don't mean that perhaps that person is likely going deaf and should find another hobby.


Tread carefully on this issue here, please


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I believe a lot of people say they hear this or that to fit in. Eliminate expectations and then see which tubes you like.


Guided by you, I bought my best sounding (to me) 7A4s from early 40ties for less than $5 each. And plenty of them, thanks God


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 8, 2020)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Guided by you, I bought my best sounding (to me) 7A4s from early 40ties for less than $5 each. And plenty of them, thanks God



I believe I did come up with the 7A4's but I imagine @bcowen will want to take credit for them, maybe give them a nickname. You know how the guy is.   

Even though an adapter is needed I have a bunch of 63 Melz 1578's on the way as well as some 1958 Melz that have all the same traits as the 63 except for the holes in the  plates. I own a 56 and have been on the lookout for similar tubes for some time now.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> What about listining to Vali 2 without any tube at all, for a really bad sound?



It would probably sound rather sterile and lifeless, lacking warmth and......volume.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I believe I did come up with the 7A4's but I imagine @bcowen will want to take credit for them, maybe give them a nickname. You know how the guy is.
> 
> Even though an adapter is needed I have a bunch of 63 Melz 1578's on the way as well as some 1958 Melz that have all the same traits as the 63 except for the holes in the  plates. I own a 56 and have been on the lookout for similar tubes for some time now.



Oh, please.  I claim the Frankies and Fotons, but I'm quite sure it was you that first brought the 7A4's to attention.  If it _*had*_ been me, I certainly would have come up with something less lame than 'Naughty Girls.'


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 8, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Oh, please.  I claim the Frankies and Fotons, but I'm quite sure it was you that first brought the 7A4's to attention.  If it _*had*_ been me, I certainly would have come up with something less lame than 'Naughty Girls.'


Hell’s kittens man!!! The revered naughty girls are 6J5 Sylvanias with um three hole black plates. That reminds me of semi dirty story but time to have dinner instead.

7A4's are loktals, practically the same only different.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hell’s kittens man!!! The revered naughty girls are 6J5 Sylvanias with um three hole black plates. That reminds me of semi dirty story but time to have dinner instead.
> 
> 7A4's are loktals, practically the same only different.



My bust.  I'm ashamed of my memory lapse.  Full apologies.  

But Naughty Girls is still lame.


----------



## bl4scott

Looking for some advice.  Recently acquired the vali 2 as my dedicated headphone amp which is fed by the Modius DAC.  From the short listening time with the stock tube, I was not supper impressed with the overall sound, even after a break-in period.  I purchased a JJ Gold Pin E88CC and an EH 6922 from TubeDepot and a Philco 6CG7 from ebay.  So far I am liking the JJ better than all 4 as it seems to me have the widest soundstage. 

I am looking a 6SN7 adapter and considering purchasing a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB for starters.  Currently the 9 pin socket saver is on backorder and unsure if I need this to use the other two or it is just for convenience. I have seen a lot of comments on the mouse ears and unsure if this would be a better route to go.  What is a fair price to pay on eBay for it?

Thanks for advice guys.

Brian


----------



## bcowen

bl4scott said:


> Looking for some advice.  Recently acquired the vali 2 as my dedicated headphone amp which is fed by the Modius DAC.  From the short listening time with the stock tube, I was not supper impressed with the overall sound, even after a break-in period.  I purchased a JJ Gold Pin E88CC and an EH 6922 from TubeDepot and a Philco 6CG7 from ebay.  So far I am liking the JJ better than all 4 as it seems to me have the widest soundstage.
> 
> I am looking a 6SN7 adapter and considering purchasing a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB for starters.  Currently the 9 pin socket saver is on backorder and unsure if I need this to use the other two or it is just for convenience. I have seen a lot of comments on the mouse ears and unsure if this would be a better route to go.  What is a fair price to pay on eBay for it?
> 
> ...



Due to the recessed socket in the Vali 2, you'll need to use a socket saver with most (or all) of the Chinese adapters to clear the Vali's top cover. A better approach is to get an adapter from @Deyan .  Not only are his of far better quality, the one shown below is 1 piece and was made to fit the Vali 2 perfectly.  Mine has a loctal socket on top for a 7N7 tube, but I'm sure he could do the same with an octal socket for 6SN7's. Just PM him if interested.


----------



## CarlosAudio51

Alternatives to Amperex 6922 PQ US-made?

I'm using the mentioned tube and really like the sound signature. But it has developed a very slight but constant, audible high frequency tone that I can hear thru all my headphones so I'm looking for a replacement.

Other than buying a like-for-like replacement (these are getting very pricey), is there a new production or NOS tube that sounds closest to the Amperex 6922 PQ on the Vali 2 for <$100? For <$50?


----------



## emorrison33

I just made it through all 367 pages of this forum.  Took me 2 weeks, but thanks for your help guys! Currently have the stock tube (didn't like it), an EH 6CG7 (ok), Genalex Gold Lion E88CC (good but a little too forward for my Grado's), Mullard Blackburn 6DJ8 (very good) and a 1970 Tesla 6922/E88CC Czech, crossed swords, which is my favorite.  But I'm afraid to roll the Tesla...don't want to wear it out too quickly LOL


----------



## emorrison33

emorrison33 said:


> Took me 2 weeks, but thanks for your help guys!


AND GALS!


----------



## bcowen

emorrison33 said:


> I just made it through all 367 pages of this forum.  Took me 2 weeks, but thanks for your help guys! Currently have the stock tube (didn't like it), an EH 6CG7 (ok), Genalex Gold Lion E88CC (good but a little too forward for my Grado's), Mullard Blackburn 6DJ8 (very good) and a 1970 Tesla 6922/E88CC Czech, crossed swords, which is my favorite.  But I'm afraid to roll the Tesla...don't want to wear it out too quickly LOL



Roll that Tesla in there and enjoy it!  The Vali 3 will be out long before you wear out the tube.


----------



## KoshNaranek

emorrison33 said:


> I just made it through all 367 pages of this forum.  Took me 2 weeks, but thanks for your help guys! Currently have the stock tube (didn't like it), an EH 6CG7 (ok), Genalex Gold Lion E88CC (good but a little too forward for my Grado's), Mullard Blackburn 6DJ8 (very good) and a 1970 Tesla 6922/E88CC Czech, crossed swords, which is my favorite.  But I'm afraid to roll the Tesla...don't want to wear it out too quickly LOL


You are more likely to damage the tube by rolling it in and out. If you like it, just use it.


----------



## jcolletteiii

New to this headphone Schiit, but not tubes or audio. Current setup has just changed pretty markedly - we're going to be building a small (not quite tiny) off grid as close to zero net as we can go and was time to start downsizing, so I am headphones only for awhile. I've a vinyl only type - my chain goes: Luxman pd-444 with Jelco arm and Supex SD 900 Super (retipped by me with a line contact nude on a sapphire cantilever) > Luxman 8020 step up transformer > McIntosh C-24 for the phono stage > Schiit Vali > Classic 99's. Had been completely tube audio chain prior to being given the Mac stuff - was running an ARC SP-3 A1 into a HK Citation II feeding a pair of DIY Altec speakers. No room for such things in a small house. Will never let go of my CII though.

Anyhow - coming from that equipment, I know how much difference tubes can make soundwise. I've been listening to the stoker tube for a couple of weeks and it didn't sound too bad. It was my only source of information on how good these headphones were, and realizing that both the headphones and the tube may need some time before the best sound started coming out of them, was just gonna settle in and deal with it. Then I started reading through some of this thread, and looking through eBay to see what was out there. So, earlier this week ordered some of the tubes others have talked about in this thread and a few that I am not sure were or not.

I found three of the Brimar 6BQ7A's on Doug's Tubes for $5 each (+ shipping) and thought I would try those to see if the hubbub was true or not.

I found a gold pin grey plate halo getter NOS Japanese manufacture Realistic lifetime 6CG7 tube with gold pins - and thought, 'Yeah!'. $12.95 + shipping.

I found an NOS Zenith USA grey plate side O getter clear top 6CG7 for 14.99 + shipping and thought, 'hmmm...'.

So, starting with my stocker, which is a badly mismatched CBS black plate 6BZ7, I started a comparison using material that I am pretty familiar with: RHCP's Stadium Arcadium, Jupiter, side 4 - C'mon Girl, Wet Sand, Hey. Listened to this material once through with each tube, then a second time more closely. Yep, this is all initial impression. All of these tubes are very young.

My stocker 6BZ7 is mismatched. It has a lot of noise on one side, and the output from one channel has easily less gain than the other - I evened it out with the balance control. My initial impressions weren't bad - this was the only sonic information I had with this tube in the pre with these headphones and my source setup. Pleasant enough... until I started listening to the other tubes. Then my impression of this tube changed. It is rather meh. It sometimes sounds tinny with certain instruments in the high frequencies. It just lacks... (maybe 12 hours of use total). I don't think this one will get all that much more use.

The next tube I put in was the Brimar 6BQ7A. Wow - did that sucker glow! Love me some bright tube glow. The initial slam from drum hits was in your face was the first impression I had of this tube. Bass seemed stronger (RHCP is good material to assess bass on) and maybe a bit better defined. Midrange was better too and that grating harshness of the 6BZ7 CBS tube on certain high freq sounds was reduced. But, on the second run through, I noticed that this tube has some of that Mullard 'darkness' similar to their 12AX7's. Seems rolled off at the top - bass-heavy. I never had to use the tone controls in my ARC SP-3 preamp when I used Mullards in it. Better sounding in my chain than the stocker, but with everything I have heard about this tube, more burn in will hopefully improve it. (3 hours of burn in).

I had very high hopes for the next tube as I have had AMAZING results with other gold pin Realistic tubes. The Realistic 6CG7 gold pin went in next. This one is Realistic branded lifetime Japan grey plate gold pin, round top getter, copper grid posts. Grids are oriented with their long axes parallel to each other across the gap. Plates approximately 18mm long.  Narrow plates, three 'ladders' with three raised dots. No shield between triodes. Labelled 6FQ7/6CG7. Date code: None. I was underwhelmed. Gain is greater, but more hiss too. Bass is pretty good generally, not spectacular. Midrange is okay. Not a bad tube, but also not as good as I was expecting. Maybe a smidgeon better than the 6CB7 CBS. I think this tube will benefit from much more significant burn-in. (2 hours of burn in).

The last tube in the rotation was the side O-getter clear top NOS Zenith 6CG7. This tube has the longest plates of all of these tubes, and has longer plates than the Realistic 6CG7. Zenith USA grey plate steel pin, round side getter, silver grid posts. Grids with long axes perpendicular across gap. Plates approximately 23mm long. Plates wide, 3 ladders. No shield between triodes. Labelled 6FQ7/6CG7. Date code: 2/74? This tube is distinctly better than any of the others. Bass is nice. Mids are nice. Highs are nice. Instruments and vocals are just the way they should. Bass in particular sounds just right - I can hear the slaps and the strings vibrating with the most naturalness. Wow, this tube is nice. I think I'm up to 6 or so hours on this one. I cannot stop listening to this one.

Man - there are a lot of constructions on 6CG7's.

I am so enamored with that long grey plate Zenith that I ordered some additional variations to try. I am curious how the shielding between the triodes will effect the sound/stage. I ordered a long grey plate top getter with the intertriode shield, a long black plate top getter with shielding, and a long grey plate JAN to try. I have also noticed that some of the side gettered long plate tubes have shielding between the triodes. Will probably have to grab one of those too.

Which 6CG7 variants to all'y'all prefer?


----------



## CarlosAudio51

The only 6CG7 I have tried on my Vali 2 is the Electro-Harmonix. It's not the best in any area but it's very laid back and enjoyable. Bass has good punch but not as much as other tubes I have. Mid range is very bloomy and enjoyable. It's a dark tube so treble is toned down. If you're looking at getting the best out of the Vali 2, this tube is NOT it. If you're looking for a laid back sound, this tube is a very good option and cheap.

You could also try other tube designations and go crazy with tube rolling. Haha.


----------



## Mr Trev

I've been very lazy on the tube rolling front so the only 6CG7 I have is a cleartop (Sears rebrand, but I think all cleartops are of RCA origins)
I keep hearing the Westinghouse 6CG7s are pretty good. IIRC @bcowen has one


----------



## CarlosAudio51

Mr Trev said:


> @bcowen has one


If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that @bcowen's tube collection would stretch from NC to TX if you lined up all his tubes.


----------



## Mr Trev

IIRC, I heard someone say that @bcowen's collection is visible from the ISS


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> IIRC, I heard someone say that @bcowen's collection is visible from the ISS



You guys are hilarious.  20 years ago it could be seen from the ISS, now it can be seen from Alpha Centauri (without a telescope).


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I've been very lazy on the tube rolling front so the only 6CG7 I have is a cleartop (Sears rebrand, but I think all cleartops are of RCA origins)
> I keep hearing the Westinghouse 6CG7s are pretty good. IIRC @bcowen has one



I do.  Sounds good in the Vali 2, but better in the Lyr 3.  Honestly I haven't found true love with any 6CG7 in the Vali 2 (Amperex, RCA clear-top, Ei, Sylvania, etc).  Might be that the Vali 2 doesn't throw quite enough plate voltage at it to get it groovin' (but that's just a wild guess on my part).  My favorite, and the one I keep going back to in the Vali 2 is the Frankentube with a Deyan adapter:


----------



## jcolletteiii

More 6CG7 impressions. Wow - are there a LOT of different constructions of this tube. A couple more that I have now spent some time with on my vinyl-only rig (YMMV).

RCA Black plate (4 hrs.). Matte black plates, steel pins, D-shaped top getter, copper grid posts. Grids with long axes perpendicular across gap. Plates matte black (x in pencil on one of the middle areas contained in one of the plate 'ladders'; looks like a pencil line toward the top of the plate). Plates approximately 23mm long. Plates with 3 ladders, wide, 2 rectangular pierced holes on each side of each plate where they are are mechanically held together (typical for all 6CG7's I've seen). No radiators on top of upper mica. Top and bottom micas both flat on each plate side of the envelope. Black shield between triodes.  Yellow print RCA logo. *Very* quiet backgrounds - this may be the quietest of the 6CG7's I have tried thus far. Perhaps a bit on the laid back side, but with a nice wide soundstage - wider than most. Nice sounding tube.

GE JAN 6CG7 (2.5 hour). This tube has an interesting construction. Grey plates, steel pins, round top getter, copper grid posts. Grids with long axes perpendicular across gap. Plates approximately 23mm long. Plates with 3 ladders, wide, but with a small raised trapezoidal area at the top and bottom of each plate. There are also three holes on the edge of each plate which allows the edge of the grid to be seen inside the plate assembly. No radiators on top of upper mica. Silver shield between plates. The filaments at the top of the tube comes out of one plate, crosses the gap between the triodes and goes back down into the opposite plate assembly (really intersting look!). Green print. Box states 12/72 production date. Differences between this tube and the standard grey plate top round getter tube: No holes in edges of plates; no raised trapezoidal area on top and bottom of plates. The filament does not continue across the top from one plate to the other.  Also quite quiet. FANTASTIC soundstage width. Sounds a bit lean, but in very few instances. This may be due to this tube not having had adequate burn-in time for an adequate comparison. However, this being said - my immediate reaction on listening to this tube for the first time was 'Whoa!". I think this tube is just a bit better than the matte black plate. Right now, I think this is my current favorite 6CG7.

My top to bottom of tubes that I have listened to so far:
1 GE JAN grey plate 6CG7 with continuous filament and 3 holes in plate edge: Quietest sounding, widest soundstage
2 RCA branded matte black plate 6CG7, D getter. Just a nice sounding tube
3 Zenith grey plate side O getter 6FQ7 clear top no shield (6FQ7). 
4 RCA branded grey plate side O getter 6CG7 clear top with shield (straight up 6CG7)
5 Standard grey plate top O getter 6CG7 with shield. Not bad sounding, just didn't get me excited.
6 Brimar grey plate 6BQ7A. Has a sort of Mullard 12AX7 tone which seems to be mid and mid bass heavy, top light. This one may need more time as it seems to have quite a following here.
7 Realistic gold pin 6FQ7 (no shield). Nothing special - again, might need more time.
8 Stock CBS 6BZ7.

I have a GE JAN 5670 to try as well, but the adapter isn't here yet. Pretty excited to try that one too.

I am looking for a black plate side getter clear top 6CG7 also, but don't know if they even made that combo, and still need to locate a gloss black plate. Really liking many of these inexpensive tubes. Couple photos below of the filament arrangement of the GE JAN 6CG7.


----------



## Mr Trev

jcolletteiii said:


> More 6CG7 impressions. Wow - are there a LOT of different constructions of this tube. A couple more that I have now spent some time with on my vinyl-only rig (YMMV).
> 
> RCA Black plate (4 hrs.). Matte black plates, steel pins, D-shaped top getter, copper grid posts. Grids with long axes perpendicular across gap. Plates matte black (x in pencil on one of the middle areas contained in one of the plate 'ladders'; looks like a pencil line toward the top of the plate). Plates approximately 23mm long. Plates with 3 ladders, wide, 2 rectangular pierced holes on each side of each plate where they are are mechanically held together (typical for all 6CG7's I've seen). No radiators on top of upper mica. Top and bottom micas both flat on each plate side of the envelope. Black shield between triodes.  Yellow print RCA logo. *Very* quiet backgrounds - this may be the quietest of the 6CG7's I have tried thus far. Perhaps a bit on the laid back side, but with a nice wide soundstage - wider than most. Nice sounding tube.
> 
> ...



I believe Amperex also does a continuous heater like that GE. I have read about black plate cleartops, but haven't found any for sale myself.


----------



## bl4scott

Is there a big different in sounds between the Tung Sol mouse ear grey plates vs black plates?


----------



## jcolletteiii

Man... I just found 3 6SN7's in my stash. Two grey glass OLD RCA GT's and a Sylvania GTB. 

I have to say that I am very impressed with the JAN 5670. It has a noticeably larger soundstange than any of the 6CG7 variants that I have tried. I just dug a glossy black plate 6CG7 out of my stash as well. It does sound nice, but nothing special - probably needs some time - I am pretty sure that is a brand new tube. The 5670 sounds really VERY nice on some material - the bass slaps on a lot of RHCP material sound amazing, but on other material (maybe less well-recorded albums) it might reveal too much about the crappy recording to be very pleasant. For example, one of my favorite LP's is Milky Chance's Sadnecessary... it sounded amazing through my old speakers, and pretty good with the 6CG7 variants I tried. It sounds awful with the 5670's. The soundstage is wider for sure - more holographic. But it comes across as a bit harsh and grating. Again, new tube, so perhaps some burn in will remedy this, perhaps not. I have heard some folks indicate that the JAN 5670 can be somewhat harsh. Looking for a 396a or 2C51 to try, but they seem to be pretty pricey. Anyone have a favorite 5670/396a/2C51 favorite to recommend?

Just ordered the adapters to fire up these 6SN7's as well. These come from a collection from an old radio guy who died and whos' basement flooded, so they need to be cleaned up a bit, but all of those tubes have tested NOS, so I believe these are as well. How do the 6SN7's compare to the 6CG7's for folks who have listened to both types in the Vali?


----------



## bcowen

jcolletteiii said:


> Anyone have a favorite 5670/396a/2C51 favorite to recommend?



This:








jcolletteiii said:


> Just ordered the adapters to fire up these 6SN7's as well. These come from a collection from an old radio guy who died and whos' basement flooded, so they need to be cleaned up a bit, but all of those tubes have tested NOS, so I believe these are as well. How do the 6SN7's compare to the 6CG7's for folks who have listened to both types in the Vali?



Personally, I prefer several 6SN7's over any 6CG7 that I've tried in the Vali 2, but my most favorite continues to be a 7N7.  But that's just me, and personal preference is a huge factor that _must_ be considered (including the 396A above).


----------



## Mr Trev

jcolletteiii said:


> Man... I just found 3 6SN7's in my stash. Two grey glass OLD RCA GT's and a Sylvania GTB.
> 
> I have to say that I am very impressed with the JAN 5670. It has a noticeably larger soundstange than any of the 6CG7 variants that I have tried. I just dug a glossy black plate 6CG7 out of my stash as well. It does sound nice, but nothing special - probably needs some time - I am pretty sure that is a brand new tube. The 5670 sounds really VERY nice on some material - the bass slaps on a lot of RHCP material sound amazing, but on other material (maybe less well-recorded albums) it might reveal too much about the crappy recording to be very pleasant. For example, one of my favorite LP's is Milky Chance's Sadnecessary... it sounded amazing through my old speakers, and pretty good with the 6CG7 variants I tried. It sounds awful with the 5670's. The soundstage is wider for sure - more holographic. But it comes across as a bit harsh and grating. Again, new tube, so perhaps some burn in will remedy this, perhaps not. I have heard some folks indicate that the JAN 5670 can be somewhat harsh. Looking for a 396a or 2C51 to try, but they seem to be pretty pricey. Anyone have a favorite 5670/396a/2C51 favorite to recommend?



Some of the Soviet-era equivalents (6n3) aren't too bad. I have a Reflektor myself - can't remember what vintage though. Supposedly triple mica 6n3s are really good, but somebody is hoarding the entire worlds supply.
I also read that the Tesla versions have their charms too.


----------



## jcolletteiii

bcowen said:


> Personally, I prefer several 6SN7's over any 6CG7 that I've tried in the Vali 2, but my most favorite continues to be a 7N7.  But that's just me, and personal preference is a huge factor that _must_ be considered (including the 396A above).



I was sure someone would put up one of those - haven't seen a decent price yet, but still looking. Do you know if WE produced 396a for other brands - are there any rebranded WE 2C51's out there?

Also, just to make sure as I think I have some - aren't 7C7's just loctal 6SN7s?


----------



## bcowen

jcolletteiii said:


> I was sure someone would put up one of those - haven't seen a decent price yet, but still looking. Do you know if WE produced 396a for other brands - are there any rebranded WE 2C51's out there?
> 
> Also, just to make sure as I think I have some - aren't 7C7's just loctal 6SN7s?



Not sure on the WE OEM'ing.  I only have a couple WE's -- one marked with 396A only, and the other marked with both 396A and 2C51.  I have a few other manufacturers in that family (2C51 / 5670), but haven't ever compared the internals very closely.

And you're quite correct that the 7*N*7 (not *C) *is a 6SN7 with a loctal base. Closest internal construction I've seen to the one I mentioned is a Sylvania tall bottle 6SN7W. The two sound pretty much the same (to my ears), but the 7N7's can still be picked up for cheap ($15 - $25) and the 6SN7W's are a wee bit more.


----------



## hollandstein

Today I replaced my EH 6CG7 with a Gold Lion E88CC/6922 and even without breaking it in I can sense a smidge more bass response. I love it and can’t wait to run through some albums.


----------



## emorrison33

hollandstein said:


> Today I replaced my EH 6CG7 with a Gold Lion E88CC/6922 and even without breaking it in I can sense a smidge more bass response. I love it and can’t wait to run through some albums.


I think the Gold Lion seems cleaner too.  The EH 6CG7 seemed muddy to me at times. More of a soundstage on the Gold Lion too.


----------



## hollandstein

emorrison33 said:


> I think the Gold Lion seems cleaner too.  The EH 6CG7 seemed muddy to me at times. More of a soundstage on the Gold Lion too.


Agreed. I have some 6XX on the way and I’m excited to pair them.


----------



## jcolletteiii

Man, I will not ever be ordering from tube depot again. Refuses to admit that 6SN7 adapter is lost 3 weeks after shipping. Refused to replace, had to file a dispute. Aren't many options out there for this adapter - didn't want a chinese one, so went with one from Garage1217 instead - looks like the quality is better. So, I still have no idea how 6SN7's sound. Ugh.


----------



## CarlosAudio51

I have bought 2 tubes and a socket saver from them. No issues. But the fact that they didn't replace/refund your order after it got lost in transit is terrible. Have you tried Upscale Audio? I've never bought from them but read good things about them.


----------



## bl4scott

Found some Mullard's that are for sale locally.   2 of HY90/35W4 and 1 of HF93/12BA6.  Will any of these work in the Vali 2?


----------



## bcowen

bl4scott said:


> Found some Mullard's that are for sale locally.   2 of HY90/35W4 and 1 of HF93/12BA6.  Will any of these work in the Vali 2?



No.  The HY90 is a rectifier tube, and the HF93 is a pentode with a 12.6 heater voltage.  Even with adapters, the HY90 will likely fry your amp within seconds, and the HF93 won't get enough heater voltage to get the cathodes to temperature (the Vali 2 provides 6.3 volts of heater voltage).  There are dual voltage tubes (like 12AU7's, 12AT7's, 12AX7's, and others) out there that will operate at either 6.3v or 12.6v depending on how the heater circuit is wired for them, but the HF93 is _not_ a dual voltage design.

https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_hy90.html
https://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/062/h/HF93.pdf


----------



## bl4scott

bcowen said:


> No.  The HY90 is a rectifier tube, and the HF93 is a pentode with a 12.6 heater voltage.  Even with adapters, the HY90 will likely fry your amp within seconds, and the HF93 won't get enough heater voltage to get the cathodes to temperature (the Vali 2 provides 6.3 volts of heater voltage).  There are dual voltage tubes (like 12AU7's, 12AT7's, 12AX7's, and others) out there that will operate at either 6.3v or 12.6v depending on how the heater circuit is wired for them, but the HF93 is _not_ a dual voltage design.
> 
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_hy90.html
> https://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/062/h/HF93.pdf


Still leaning all this. Thanks again for the help.


----------



## inmytaxi

jcolletteiii said:


> Man, I will not ever be ordering from tube depot again. Refuses to admit that 6SN7 adapter is lost 3 weeks after shipping. Refused to replace, had to file a dispute. Aren't many options out there for this adapter - didn't want a chinese one, so went with one from Garage1217 instead - looks like the quality is better. So, I still have no idea how 6SN7's sound. Ugh.


Patience. I'd think they'd wait at least 30 days, stuff turns up, and if they send new stuff out it's not like if the package turns up they can expect the extra to come home. Lets be kind to our vendors.


----------



## mbritt

After listening to the new Vali 2+/ModiMulti stack for a month now I'm getting a good feel for this little tube amp rig.  I bought a Sovtec 6922 to pair with my Audeze LCD-2Cs based on several online mentions of that being a good pairing and I would have to agree.  I don't have the patience to let the tubes warm up and swap them out for a side by side with the stock tube but the Sovtec sounded great once I let it warm up and burn in overnight.  Here's a link to my initial impressions with the stock tube and Snake Oil mini-link interconnects.

My main listening rig is a Bifrost 2/Asgard 3 stack which has a smooth analog feeling to it.  Not boring at all but sweet and lush.  The Bifrost rig is a like eating at a fine dining sit down restaurant where the Vali 2+ stack is like the best taco truck in LA.  You probably wouldn't eat tacos or fine dining every day but you'd enjoy the variety of both experiences.  It's nice to have variations of great meals and sounds.  

The recent Steve Guttenberg's Vali 2+ video review nailed what I was thinking, that the Vali was fun and engaging, especially with older rock and acoustic music.  The kind of recordings that I keep coming back to are the ones that sound like the band was recording live in a studio - as opposed to piecemeal tracks being recorded separately.  His recommendation of The Beatles White Album led me down a vintage rock Sunday afternoon.  Be sure to listen to While My Guitar Gently Weeps to hear the roomy, echoey goodness enhanced by the Vali tube amp.  

Coming to age in the 80's I missed the Beatles with the exception of what I've heard on Classic Rock radio over the years.  I bought one of the early CD versions of Sgt Peppers and I came home from the opening week of the Beatles Love Vegas Show with the DVD Audio disc as a memento but that's it in my CD collection.  Firing up Roon to hear the White Album was a good time that led me to the Let It Be Naked Version Remastered on Tidal.  Get Back stripped down to the basics really hooked me with the great sounding guitar work and crashing symbols.  Same goes for Don't Let Me Down but Let It Be was a real treat with the opening piano, Pauls vocals and the intricate guitars. Hours later and I'm still enthralled by the Roon AI algorithm feeding me great vintage rock.  Songs like The Rolling Stones Out of Time I usually skip because they've always sounded a little too 50's do-wap for me but the Vali 2+ brings out the best in vocal harmonies.  I should get up and get on with my day but I'm stuck here enjoying the spiciness that the Vali 2+ adds to songs I might have skipped over of as kind of bland in the past.  Wow!  Rod Stewart's Maggie May just came on while I was finishing this and the Celtic sounding strings (Dulcimer Hammer?) really jumped out at me and grabbed my attention while the bass guitar throbs seductively, helping drive the laid back vocals.  I guess I'm going to just go with the flow and listen to old music in a new way today.  New for me anyway.  Tubes aren't exactly cutting edge tech.


----------



## supersonic395

I'll post this here as it might be more relevant:

Have an EH 6CG7 and an EH 6922 on the way!

I don't plan to get any other tubes but am letting that stock tube burn in currently.

Will continue using the stock tube for at least another week but does anyone have experience with both the EH 6CG7 and the EH 6922?


----------



## jcolletteiii

Got my 6SN7 adapter from garage1217, and PP refunded my purchase from tubedepot - pretty pathetic I had to go that route, IMO. The adapter from garage1217 has really nice, thick, high quality pins that are long and gold plated. They're mounted to a circuit board, and that has a ceramic socket on top. Really nice quality. I rolled in the two types of 6SN7's I have in my stash - both NOS from what I can tell. They sound *GOOD*. Have not spent enough time with these tubes yet, but my first impression is that the bass is crisper, and that cymbal hits are just extraordinarily textured. The first LP I listened to through the 6SN7 was 'Up at Minton's' vol 2 by Stanley Turrentine - my favorite live jazz recording period. I was literally startled by the applause at the end of the first track as it appeared to float all around me. No - *literally* startled (I don't use the term 'literally' unless it is actually true). Like my heart jumped because I knew no one else was in the room with me. Have to spend some more time with this tube.


----------



## Mr Trev

jcolletteiii said:


> Got my 6SN7 adapter from garage1217, and PP refunded my purchase from tubedepot - pretty pathetic I had to go that route, IMO. The adapter from garage1217 has really nice, thick, high quality pins that are long and gold plated. They're mounted to a circuit board, and that has a ceramic socket on top. Really nice quality. I rolled in the two types of 6SN7's I have in my stash - both NOS from what I can tell. They sound *GOOD*. Have not spent enough time with these tubes yet, but my first impression is that the bass is crisper, and that cymbal hits are just extraordinarily textured. The first LP I listened to through the 6SN7 was 'Up at Minton's' vol 2 by Stanley Turrentine - my favorite live jazz recording period. I was literally startled by the applause at the end of the first track as it appeared to float all around me. No - *literally* startled (I don't use the term 'literally' unless it is actually true). Like my heart jumped because I knew no one else was in the room with me. Have to spend some more time with this tube.



You using a socket saver with that or just running the V2 topless?

I have a double stack of adapters and I find my 6sn7s tend to be noisy with that setup. Could be because I'm using a 12au7 adapter in place of a "true" socket saver and then a 12au7 -> 6SN7 on top of that.
Regardless, I really should get a more elegant solution, and I do like the G1217s (plus it would also give me an excuse to get a 5670 adapter at the same time)


----------



## CarlosAudio51 (Dec 20, 2020)

supersonic395 said:


> I'll post this here as it might be more relevant:
> 
> Have an EH 6CG7 and an EH 6922 on the way!
> 
> ...


I got both, but only have about 2 weeks on the EH 6922. A quick commentary would be that the 6CG7 sounds loose and muddy in the bass, midrange is forward and bloomy at least compared to the 6922, and slightly dark treble. 6922 overall has better extension at both ends but is slightly brighter. Midrange is still bloomy but not as forward as the 6CG7.

To be honest they have different sound signatures, but I'm almost exclusively using the 6CG7 because I have the Asgard 3. The Asgard 3 has a hint of tube magic, that sounds better to me than the Vali 2 on the stock tube and EH 6922. Seems like getting the Asgard 3 has put the brakes on my tube rolling adventures with the Vali 2. At least for now. Asgard 3 for 70% of my listening. When I want a bit more tubey sound, I got the 6CG7 for a more laid back warm and bloomy sound for the rest of my listening time.


----------



## bl4scott

supersonic395 said:


> I'll post this here as it might be more relevant:
> 
> Have an EH 6CG7 and an EH 6922 on the way!
> 
> ...



I don't plan to get any other tubes but am letting that stock tube burn in currently. - This is what I thought and said a month or so ago.


----------



## bl4scott

jcolletteiii said:


> Got my 6SN7 adapter from garage1217, and PP refunded my purchase from tubedepot - pretty pathetic I had to go that route, IMO. The adapter from garage1217 has really nice, thick, high quality pins that are long and gold plated. They're mounted to a circuit board, and that has a ceramic socket on top. Really nice quality. I rolled in the two types of 6SN7's I have in my stash - both NOS from what I can tell. They sound *GOOD*. Have not spent enough time with these tubes yet, but my first impression is that the bass is crisper, and that cymbal hits are just extraordinarily textured. The first LP I listened to through the 6SN7 was 'Up at Minton's' vol 2 by Stanley Turrentine - my favorite live jazz recording period. I was literally startled by the applause at the end of the first track as it appeared to float all around me. No - *literally* startled (I don't use the term 'literally' unless it is actually true). Like my heart jumped because I knew no one else was in the room with me. Have to spend some more time with this tube.


What was the first tube you used in your new adapter?


----------



## jcolletteiii (Dec 21, 2020)

I'm running it on a socket saver right now, but I will give it a shot later without the socketsaver to see if it will work - dunno if the pins are quite long enough. EDIT: Not long enough pins to run without a socket saver.

I tried a grey glass RCA CRC 6SN7-GT first. I am not sure if that one is NOS or not, but so far all of the tubes from that haul have been. It was quite good, but then I put in a silver top Sylvania 6SN7 GTB, and I can't put my finger on the differences quite yet, but I do prefer the silver top Sylvania - at least right now. Gotta let both burn in for awhile tho.


----------



## kwatch (Dec 27, 2020)

Deleted.


----------



## bl4scott

Picked up a Raytheon JAN-CRP-6SN7GT / VT-231 [U.S. Navy] and trying to figure out what what year equals = FE4?  Any ideas folks?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bl4scott said:


> Picked up a Raytheon JAN-CRP-6SN7GT / VT-231 [U.S. Navy] and trying to figure out what what year equals = FE4?  Any ideas folks?


In the 1940, year was often still marked by a single digit. Given the VT231 designation, most likely 1944. And FE? I do not know, but FEbruary would be an easy guess?


----------



## kwatch

Does anyone know what type of tube this is?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

More pics? ECC 803 perhaps? Not sure


----------



## kwatch (Dec 31, 2020)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> More pics? ECC 803 perhaps? Not sure




It looks like Telefunken ECC83 12AX7.

Code Pair Telefunken ECC83 12AX7 Test NOS/Balanced Long Grey Serious Tubes M645 | eBay


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

kwatch said:


> It looks like Telefunken ECC83 12AX7.
> 
> Code Pair Telefunken ECC83 12AX7 Test NOS/Balanced Long Grey Serious Tubes M645 | eBay


Fair enough. Why asking, then?


----------



## kwatch

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Fair enough. Why asking, then?



I found out after your posting.  Can I use this tube in Vali 2+ using the ECC83 12AX7 to 6N2 6N1 6N6 Tube Socket Adapter Converter?  What will happen if it is not ECC83 and used in Vali 2+ using the converter?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Dec 31, 2020)

kwatch said:


> I found out after your posting.  Can I use this tube in Vali 2+ using the ECC83 12AX7 to 6N2 6N1 6N6 Tube Socket Adapter Converter?  What will happen if it is not ECC83 and used in Vali 2+ using the converter?


I would not stick a tube in an amp before knowing its heater voltage and pin out at least. 12AX7 requires a dedicated adapter for Vali 2 as it has twin heater voltage design and it needs to be correctly pinned out for 6.3 V


----------



## krunchcrispy

jcolletteiii said:


> I'm running it on a socket saver right now, but I will give it a shot later without the socketsaver to see if it will work - dunno if the pins are quite long enough. EDIT: Not long enough pins to run without a socket saver.
> 
> I tried a grey glass RCA CRC 6SN7-GT first. I am not sure if that one is NOS or not, but so far all of the tubes from that haul have been. It was quite good, but then I put in a silver top Sylvania 6SN7 GTB, and I can't put my finger on the differences quite yet, but I do prefer the silver top Sylvania - at least right now. Gotta let both burn in for awhile tho.


HEy, I have enjoyed reading your impressions.  I recently got the Vali 2+ and wondering what kind of tubes to get.  If you have the time could you update your thoughts on your favorite tubes?


----------



## emorrison33

Question.  Making up numbers here for the most part....The Vali2 frequency range is 20Hz to 20Khz.  And let's say my headphones are 9Hz to 30Khz.  Am I effectively "cutting off" those frequencies by using my Vali 2 headphone amp?  Losing the full range of my headphones?  I realize, for the most part us humans can only hear between 20Hz and 20Khz.....just wondering is all.


----------



## timb5881

emorrison33 said:


> Question.  Making up numbers here for the most part....The Vali2 frequency range is 20Hz to 20Khz.  And let's say my headphones are 9Hz to 30Khz.  Am I effectively "cutting off" those frequencies by using my Vali 2 headphone amp?  Losing the full range of my headphones?  I realize, for the most part us humans can only hear between 20Hz and 20Khz.....just wondering is all.


No,the 20-20k is what the specs  say, but there is a roll off at each end.  It has a +- of 0.06 db so the roll off is small.


----------



## bcowen

emorrison33 said:


> Question.  Making up numbers here for the most part....The Vali2 frequency range is 20Hz to 20Khz.  And let's say my headphones are 9Hz to 30Khz.  Am I effectively "cutting off" those frequencies by using my Vali 2 headphone amp?  Losing the full range of my headphones?  I realize, for the most part us humans can only hear between 20Hz and 20Khz.....just wondering is all.



If a tree falls in the woods....


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> If a tree falls in the woods....



Then we are all the lesser for it.


----------



## JoeKickass

emorrison33 said:


> Question.  Making up numbers here for the most part....The Vali2 frequency range is 20Hz to 20Khz.  And let's say my headphones are 9Hz to 30Khz.  Am I effectively "cutting off" those frequencies by using my Vali 2 headphone amp?  Losing the full range of my headphones?  I realize, for the most part us humans can only hear between 20Hz and 20Khz.....just wondering is all.


I've always found it funny how much the headphones stretch the frequency response spec, even though they are by far the least linear component in a system.

Even though you say you are making up numbers, there are plenty of headphones which stretch them farther, Sennhieser specs the frequency response of the HD 800S all the way down at -10dB!

In the human range of 20-20khz you typically get frequency response variations of <0.1 db from a DAC or amplifier, so 10 dB is huge.
IMO it would be nice if the headphone makers gave you the max deviation within our actual hearing range.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> If a tree falls in the woods....


I thought it was about the bear?


----------



## emorrison33

JoeKickass said:


> I've always found it funny how much the headphones stretch the frequency response spec, even though they are by far the least linear component in a system.
> 
> Even though you say you are making up numbers, there are plenty of headphones which stretch them farther, Sennhieser specs the frequency response of the HD 800S all the way down at -10dB!
> 
> ...


Specifically, the Grado GS1000e specs quote 8-35,000hz


----------



## bl4scott

Any recommendations on a dual 6sn7 to 6922 adapter?  I have seen some but not found where to purchase.  

Thx Brian


----------



## bcowen

bl4scott said:


> Any recommendations on a dual 6sn7 to 6922 adapter?  I have seen some but not found where to purchase.
> 
> Thx Brian



Do you mean by chance a dual 6J5 to 6922 adapter?  A 6SN7 is a dual triode like a 6922 so you only need one.  Besides that, two 6SN7's would pull 1.2 amps of heater current.  A 6922 pulls 300 milliamps, and a 6SN7 pulls 600 milliamps. Single 6SN7's  (replacing the 6922 with an adapter) have been used in Valis with no problem, but I wouldn't even attempt two 6SN7's as you'd likely fry the amp in the process.


----------



## bl4scott

bcowen said:


> Do you mean by chance a dual 6J5 to 6922 adapter?  A 6SN7 is a dual triode like a 6922 so you only need one.  Besides that, two 6SN7's would pull 1.2 amps of heater current.  A 6922 pulls 300 milliamps, and a 6SN7 pulls 600 milliamps. Single 6SN7's  (replacing the 6922 with an adapter) have been used in Valis with no problem, but I wouldn't even attempt two 6SN7's as you'd likely fry the amp in the process.



That is good to know. Have my first set of matching 6sn7 and thought I would give them a spin. I guess. I will need to wait for a different amp in the future.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Do you mean by chance a dual 6J5 to 6922 adapter?  A 6SN7 is a dual triode like a 6922 so you only need one.  Besides that, two 6SN7's would pull 1.2 amps of heater current.  A 6922 pulls 300 milliamps, and a 6SN7 pulls 600 milliamps. Single 6SN7's  (replacing the 6922 with an adapter) have been used in Valis with no problem, but I wouldn't even attempt two 6SN7's as you'd likely fry the amp in the process.


Two 6J5 or two 7A4 in respective adapters to 6922 also work extremely well in Vali 2, as you hinted


----------



## bcowen

bl4scott said:


> That is good to know. Have my first set of matching 6sn7 and thought I would give them a spin. I guess. I will need to wait for a different amp in the future.



You can easily find a 6922 --> (single) 6SN7 adapter.  You might very much enjoy the 6SN7 in the Vali.  Just 'cause you got a pair doesn't mean you have to use both of them at the same time.    In fact, @Deyan makes a very nice adapter that's in one piece so that you don't need a socket saver/extension to reach the Vali's internal socket.  The one below has a 7N7 socket on top, but I'm sure he can do the same thing with an octal socket for a 6SN7.  Just PM him if interested.


----------



## RushNerd

bcowen said:


> You can easily find a 6922 --> (single) 6SN7 adapter.  You might very much enjoy the 6SN7 in the Vali.  Just 'cause you got a pair doesn't mean you have to use both of them at the same time.    In fact, @Deyan makes a very nice adapter that's in one piece so that you don't need a socket saver/extension to reach the Vali's internal socket.  The one below has a 7N7 socket on top, but I'm sure he can do the same thing with an octal socket for a 6SN7.  Just PM him if interested.


Wow, that right there looks like a huge upgrade for the Vali 2! Any advantage to using a tube like that over smaller ones? I would be all in if the adapter is easy enough to find.


----------



## Deyan

RushNerd said:


> Wow, that right there looks like a huge upgrade for the Vali 2! Any advantage to using a tube like that over smaller ones? I would be all in if the adapter is easy enough to find.



It's pretty easy - you just contact me.


----------



## bcowen

RushNerd said:


> Wow, that right there looks like a huge upgrade for the Vali 2! Any advantage to using a tube like that over smaller ones? I would be all in if the adapter is easy enough to find.



The 7N7 Frankentube (specific internal construction details) is one of my most favorites in the Vali 2.  And they can still be had for cheap (comparatively), just have to keep an eye out for them.  Another HeadFi member just picked one up yesterday for $15.  And definitely get the adapter from @Deyan . I'd bet he still has the specs for the one he made for me, but if not I'll be happy to re-send him the measurements.


----------



## bochawa

bcowen said:


> The 7N7 Frankentube (specific internal construction details) is one of my most favorites in the Vali 2.  And they can still be had for cheap (comparatively), just have to keep an eye out for them.  Another HeadFi member just picked one up yesterday for $15.  And definitely get the adapter from @Deyan . I'd bet he still has the specs for the one he made for me, but if not I'll be happy to re-send him the measurements.


Ha, someone else beat me to that frakentube - too slow on my part.   In other news, I can confirm that the ebay xulingmrs 7N7 to ECC88 6922 6CG7 adapter works just fine in the Vali 2, though a socket saver is required unless you have enlarged the hole in the metal cover as I have done.


----------



## bl4scott

Deyan said:


> It's pretty easy - you just contact me.


My adapter was made by Deyan and it was 100% quality work.  I would highly recommend using him.


----------



## Mr Trev

So finally after 2 weeks of being stuck in the no-mans land of the Canada/US border, my tubes arrived.
First up: Gold pin Matsushita (Realistic branded) 6BQ7.
Inserted tube… turned on the amp. No smoke, didn't have to pick shards of glass out of my face. So far, so good. Plug in my earphones… holy ringy thing. Tap the tube, rings. Tap the Vali case, rings. Flick the gain switch, hisses and rings. Not a tube for my BA iems.
So I switch to my 400i, ringing is still there, but at least I don't hear the hissing on high gain. How does it sound… crisp and detailed. Not exactly what I'd consider tube like. Granted I only have a couple hours on it, so hopefully things will settle in - especially that ringing.


----------



## Mr Trev

Here's the little guy in action:




Kinda funny looking actually. Is the tube half-empty or half-full?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Here's the little guy in action:
> 
> 
> Kinda funny looking actually. Is the tube half-empty or half-full?




You could always increase its stature.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> You could always increase its stature.


Weebles wobble, but they don't fall down


----------



## Mr Trev

So how well do tube dampers actually work? I doubt the ringing is going away - I can even hear a faint clinking as the parts expand while the tube warms up. Trying to decide if it's even worth spend the time and $ trying them…

Otherwise it does sound fine. I was listening to some Chumbawama on the weekend (they really are much better than that "Tubthumping" song), and the tubes sound excellent with the acoustic-y sound the band went for with their later albums (I totally recommend "The Boy Bands Have Won", BTW)


----------



## cptruong

My fist Vali 2+, stock tube is RCA 6BZ7, I'm using Tung-sol 6SN7 GTB and it's quite good. I've tried Schuguang CV 181-z but it looks ridiculous.


----------



## M4573rm1nd (Mar 27, 2021)

Hello, guys and gals! Want to share my expressions on tube rolling for my new Schiit Vali2+. It's my first hybrid headphone amplifier and I'm pretty new to external solotions, used much Creative and Asus internal audio cards since late 90s.







It is my current setup: powerbank feeded Topping D50S with Burson V5i op-amp rolled, Schiit Vali2+ with rolled tubes, Sony XBA-N3A with rolled cable (I do like to roll)).


----------



## M4573rm1nd (Mar 21, 2021)

I have Vali2+ for about a month now and didn't made much tube rolling so far. That what I experienced for  that moment:







1) Stock 6BZ7 I didn't used much, It's okay tube, pretty linear and good sounding. You can pretty happy with it until you start rolling tubes. And it is free.
2) 6N23P-EV is a step above stock tube. Have nice low end, clear high treble and lush middle. It also a little agressive to my ear. Good for rock music.
3) JAN 6922 very pleasant, a little rolled back sound, not much of bas though.
4) EH 6922 is one of my favorites. It has somewhat relaxed, warm sound, with good bass and recessed highs that I can listen for a long period.
5) Tesla E88CC 32 factory is my current tube and it will stay theree I think. It has sow musical sound, that extends on every frequency: puchy bass, lush medium, crispy highs. Also exellent soundstage and very detailed. No drawbacks.
6) 6N1P-EV surprisingly very good sounding tube for it's price. For sound It's like 6N23P-EV but a little brighter and no so agressive.
7) Gold Lion 6922 is a very good and expensive 6922 tube. I can compare it sound to Tesla E88CC but GL6922 is fatiguing to my ears, a can't listen it for long. And a price is too high.
8) EH 6CG7 sounds opposite to EH 6922. When EH 6922 is a dark tube EH 6CG7 is a bright, with no so much bass in it. And it sound to me like solid state amp with it insive Vali 2+, what I didn't search in hybrid amp.

So the prices to make more objective judgement: 1 - free, 2 - 10 USD, 3 - 28 USD, 4 - 28 USD (bought for 13 in opened box), 5 - 10 USD (for 4 tubes got that price), 6 - around 3 USD (very cheap), 7 - 45 USD, 8 - 22 USD.

And summary:

1) Best budget tube - 6N1P-EV clear winner. You can't get more capable tube for this price. I have Voshod plant tube (with flying penis logo). Reflektor 6N1P-EV may sound different.
2) Best price/value tube - Tesla E88CC. If in your region Tesla is more expensive then you may consider 6N23P-EV, but in that case it will be also not cheap I suppose.
3) Best quality tube - Tesla E88CC for a price a bought it it's unbeatable.

Also had great Tesla E88CC gold pins, but it has humm sond in one channel and I sent it back for exhange to seller. Whaiting for it return and may be also buy from this seller Siemens E88CC for 29 USD to my collection. And this must be stopped. On 6922 pin layout tubes of course - there are some 6SN7 tubes, that I want to hear. Waiting for tube adapter from fellow Deyan.


----------



## InvisibleInk

Where'd you get the Tesla E88CC? Tubedepot.com is out of stock and can't back order.


----------



## M4573rm1nd

InvisibleInk said:


> Where'd you get the Tesla E88CC? Tubedepot.com is out of stock and can't back order.


Hello. I bought them on my domestic site Avito. Though it will be difficult for you to convince seller to send order overseas. Try Ebay at least, but the price will not be so sweat as it was for me... It is some benefit to live in country that still produces tubes.


----------



## Hyde00

M4573rm1nd said:


> I have Vali2+ for about a month now and didn't made much tube rolling so far. That what I experienced for  that moment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just recently ordered my Vali 2+ and still waiting for it to be shipped.

But this is super helpful!!!  Thank you!!!

Please keep us update on the Tesla E88CC gold pin, I think the regular version is out of stock but I can still find the gold pin in stock.  So if the new one you're getting is good then I might go for the gold pin version instead.


----------



## sbtourist

M4573rm1nd said:


> I have Vali2+ for about a month now and didn't made much tube rolling so far. That what I experienced for  that moment:



Great write up, I'd also recommend the MATSUSHITA / NATIONAL PCC88 / 7DJ8 for a warmer sound.



M4573rm1nd said:


> 1) Stock 6BZ7 I didn't used much, It's okay tube, pretty linear and good sounding. You can pretty happy with it until you start rolling tubes. And it is free.
> 2) 6N23P-EV is a step above stock tube. Have nice low end, clear high treble and lush middle. It also a little agressive to my ear. Good for rock music.
> 3) JAN 6922 very pleasant, a little rolled back sound, not much of bas though.
> 4) EH 6922 is one of my favorites. It has somewhat relaxed, warm sound, with good bass and recessed highs that I can listen for a long period.
> ...


----------



## Hyde00 (Mar 16, 2021)

M4573rm1nd said:


> I have Vali2+ for about a month now and didn't made much tube rolling so far. That what I experienced for  that moment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay I'm having a bit of a dilemma, I can't seem to find Tesla E88CC 32 for a good price.  So now I have 2 options:

Either go for:

*1.  Tesla ECC88*
https://www.thetubestore.com/tesla-ecc88-6dj8
With my limited knowledge it sounds like ECC88 is lower grade than E88CC, would it make a noticeable difference?

*OR

2. Reflector 6H23P-EB*
https://www.thetubestore.com/6h23n-eb-6922
I like rock music so I don't mind it being a bit aggressive sounding.

What do you think?  Thanks again!


----------



## M4573rm1nd (Mar 18, 2021)

From what I know development of that type of tubes was 6DJ8 (ECC88) to 6922 (E88CC) to 7308. What makes 7308 tubes the best from it's branch. But not all E88CC will sound better compared to ECC88 tubes. E88CC have better tolerances and QC.

I don't had experienced Tesla ECC88. My Tesla E88CC gold pins will be delivered by end of that week I suppose. Than I can make direct comparison it with 6N23P-EV (got 2 of them actually).


----------



## Hyde00

lol this will be my first tube amp (Vali 2+ still on the way here) so I've been reading / learning a lot about tubes the past few weeks.

Again much appreciated on your comparison review it helped a lot, looking forward to the Tesla E88CC vs 6N23P-EV impressions.

Oh on a side note, I notice in your picture it says *6N23P-EB* but in your message it says *6N23P-EV*, is it actually suppose to be EB or EV, also are they actually different?  Just double checking so if I end up going that route I'm not getting the wrong one.  Thanks!


----------



## M4573rm1nd

Hyde00 said:


> lol this will be my first tube amp (Vali 2+ still on the way here) so I've been reading / learning a lot about tubes the past few weeks.
> 
> Again much appreciated on your comparison review it helped a lot, looking forward to the Tesla E88CC vs 6N23P-EV impressions.
> 
> Oh on a side note, I notice in your picture it says *6N23P-EB* but in your message it says *6N23P-EV*, is it actually suppose to be EB or EV, also are they actually different?  Just double checking so if I end up going that route I'm not getting the wrong one.  Thanks!


On photo I wrote actual marking on lamp, that you will see holding that lamp in your hand. In description I did write it latin co-symbol name.


----------



## M4573rm1nd (Mar 21, 2021)

So, two new additions to the brotherhood. Well... it's Tesla E88CC gold and Siemens E88CC. In that review I will compare new tubes to Tesla E88CC blue tip as reference, it's much more easier than search micronuances in that number of tubes I listened.

Tesla E88CC gold had almost similar sound signature to It's non gold, blue tip variant. But it has lower resolution in all ways. That's must be the cause why military chose for them blue tipped tubes (not for headphone amps of course). Otherway good tube, cost me 13 USD.

Siemens E88CC has very clean, engaging sound with good tight bass. Exellent but pricy 29 USD tube.


----------



## M4573rm1nd (Mar 21, 2021)

About 6N23P tubes. I have 3 types of them: original 6N23P, and two improved 6N23P-EV of Reflektor and Foton plants, 1974 and 1982 years of production respectively. All tubes shares a little coked highs, meaty bass, slightly aggressive sound. In fact I do prefer  Foton 6N23P-EV of that three tubes. But even with it when I start to listen for example heavy rock composition and first happy with rude sound that I get, I eventualy begin to lower volume of amp because that soun is fatiguing. I can withstand around 11 o'clock level half an hour I think and get volume down. With sound pressure relief dissapears detail and clarity, sound becomes muffled. Some sources incline that 6N23P sounds better after 100 hours of work, but I can't confirm it. I don't have so called "holy grail version", didn't find information on it, officially it never called that name. It always amused me that fancy name you add to selling goods name makes them twice of their prcie (bad boys, copper bells, holy hand grenade)...

In my opinion in one tube amplifier which you can not switch tumbler to another tube when changing music genre it would be wise to have one tube that is universal. For 6922 types for me it is Siemens E88CC. For lower price Tesla E88CC blue tip. Tesla E88CC gold at least. There are much more expensive and rare tubes of course but mentioned above are of good availabilty.


----------



## Hyde00

M4573rm1nd said:


> So, two new additions to the brotherhood. Well... it's Tesla E88CC gold and Siemens E88CC. Site decided to run problems with loading picture, I had to attach it. In that review I will compare new tubes to Tesla E88CC blue tip as reference, it's much more easier than search micronuances in that number of tubes I listened.
> 
> Tesla E88CC gold had almost similar sound signature to It's non gold, blue tip variant. But it has lower resolution in all ways. That's must be the cause why military chose for them blue tipped tubes (not for headphone amps of course). Otherway good tube, cost me 13 USD.
> 
> Siemens E88CC has very clean, engaging sound with good tight bass. Exellent but pricy 29 USD tube.





M4573rm1nd said:


> About 6N23P tubes. I have 3 types of them: original 6N23P, and two improved 6N23P-EV of Reflektor and Foton plants, 1974 and 1982 years of production respectively. All tubes shares a little coked highs, meaty bass, slightly aggressive sound. In fact I do prefer  Foton 6N23P-EV of that three tubes. But even with it when I start to listen for example heavy rock composition and first happy with rude sound that I get, I eventualy begin to lower volume of amp because that soun is fatiguing. I can withstand around 11 o'clock level half an hour I think and get volume down. With sound pressure relief dissapears detail and clarity, sound becomes muffled. I don't have so called "holy grail version", didn't find information on it, officially it never called that name. It always amused me that fancy name you add to selling goods name makes them twice of their prcie (bad boys, copper bells, holy hand grenade)...
> 
> In my opinion in one tube amplifier which you can not switch tumbler to another tube when changing music genre it would be wise to have one tube that is universal. For 6922 types for me it is Siemens E88CC. For lower price Tesla E88CC blue tip. Tesla E88CC gold at least. There are much more expensive and rare tubes of course but mentioned above are of good availabilty.


Heyyyy thank you for the update!

I think I most likely would stick to just 1 tube for a while so like you said sounds like it's best to go for Siemens E88CC > Tesla E88CC blue tip > Tesla E88CC gold pin depending on availability and prices.

*Just to clarify, the Tesla E88CC 32 that you had, that is the blue tip variant right?  Is it the "32" variant that indicated it's the blue tip variant?*

Also where do you get them at such good prices LOL?  I vaguely remember a reply you had earlier, is it that you live in a country that just has good and easy access to a lot of nice and cheap tubes?

Otherwise thank you for the very thorough review, I'll most likely order a tube first while waiting for my Vali 2+.  Schiit mentioned because there is parts shortage so the Vali 2+ won't be shipped until March 25.  So this give me some time to hunt down the tube first.

Again much appreciated on your feedback!!!


----------



## M4573rm1nd (Mar 21, 2021)

Hyde00 said:


> Heyyyy thank you for the update!
> 
> I think I most likely would stick to just 1 tube for a while so like you said sounds like it's best to go for Siemens E88CC > Tesla E88CC blue tip > Tesla E88CC gold pin depending on availability and prices.
> 
> ...


Tesla tubes produced on 2 plants: 32 and 37, and there is information that 37 plant was held to more tight tolerances and strict QC. Blue tipped Tesla can be either from 32 or 37 as well. I had 4 tubes produced on 32 plant and exchanged 2 of them to 37 plant tubes. As they will come to me I will make comparison.

Conclusively I'm on big positive impression from Siemens E88CC: it's very natural sounding, fast and detailed tube, with tight bass, vivid mids and smooth highs. From look of it it's middle 1960's version. Going after more expensive E188C (73 USD) may come cost inefficient...

- Photo added for more informability to previous posts. 
- Added conclusive answer.


----------



## InvisibleInk

M4573rm1nd said:


> Tesla tubes produced on 2 plants: 32 and 37, and there is information that 37 plant was held to more tight tolerances and strict QC. Blue tipped Tesla can be either from 32 or 37 as well. I had 4 tubes produced on 32 plant and exchanged 2 of them to 37 plant tubes. As they will come to me I will make comparison.
> 
> Conclusively I'm on big positive impression from Siemens E88CC: it's very natural sounding, fast and detailed tube, with tight bass, vivid mids and smooth highs. From look of it it's middle 1960's version. Going after more expensive E188C (73 USD) may come cost inefficient...
> 
> ...


How do we know we are getting a tube from 37 plant?


----------



## M4573rm1nd

InvisibleInk said:


> How do we know we are getting a tube from 37 plant?


A very good question indeed. I wil try to fully cover it with my answer.


----------



## Hyde00 (Mar 21, 2021)

M4573rm1nd said:


> A very good question indeed. I wil try to fully cover it with my answer.


Lol it's good to know the blue tip is exactly as its name suggests..... blue tip LOL.

Thanks for the picture!


----------



## M4573rm1nd

Hyde00 said:


> Lol it's good to know the blue tip is exactly as its name suggests..... blue tip LOL.
> 
> Thanks for the picture!


In fact number 32 also exactly suggests that this tube was produced on 32 plant


----------



## InvisibleInk

M4573rm1nd said:


> A very good question indeed. I wil try to fully cover it with my answer.


Ha! Russian humor... nothing like it anywhere else. 👍


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 21, 2021)

Hyde00 said:


> Lol it's good to know the blue tip is exactly as its name suggests..... blue tip LOL.
> 
> Thanks for the picture!


IIRC, Blue tip signifies that it meets stricter requirements to be used in Tektronics test gear like O scopes. Red is HP, I believe.  Heck, I may have it backwards, but a colored tip typically signifies passing of a higher standard for use in test equipment.


----------



## Hyde00

Ripper2860 said:


> IIRC, Blue tip signifies that it meets stricter requirements to be used in Tektronics test gear like O scopes. Red is HP, I believe.  Heck, I may have it backwards, but a colored tip typically signifies passing of a higher standard for use in test equipment.


Out of curiosity I looked up to see if there's a blue tip Siemens E88CC, can't find any.

I guess not all tube have blue tip variants. 😆


----------



## Hyde00

Oh and it might be way late to ask this point but, am I safe to assume tube to do make a decent amount of difference on Vali 2+?

What I mean is that there's one review I read on head-fi, the reviewer find that most Schiit tube amps more or less retain the "Schiit House Sound".  As in they get more soundstage / extension.......etc but for the most part the general sound signature retain more or less the same.

Also from what I read Vali 2 (not 2+) tend to sound the same no matter what tube used (maybe the solid state portion has more influence than the tube portion).

But from M4573rm1nd's review we can clearly see each tube sound different.  So I do hope this aspect was improved for Vali 2+.

Also it sounds like low gain it will sound more solid state while high gain you get a bit more tube influence, is it true?

Sorry I'm still waiting for my Vali 2+ to ship so this is all just research I did while waiting.


----------



## Mr Trev

I've read opinions on both sides of the matter. One person will hear a small, but noticable change in sound, but somebody in this thread (or the other vali2 thread) actually bought 2 amps and matching tubes and wasn't able to tell the difference in tubes.
IME, I really can't tell much of a difference between tubes in the same family (6922, for example). I do hear a difference when changing types of tubes (6922 to 6cg7)
I think really is rather subjective though, depending on a person's hearing, preferences and other equipment.

I've also read that high gain does have higher distortion (the good kind) than low and theoretically should sound tubier.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy (Mar 24, 2021)

I may be opening a can of worms, but what tubves you guys recommend for a decent analog-ish tubey sound that is sweeter than stock. I'll be receivinbg a Vali 2+ fr impressions in the immediate future, and wanna roll a contrasty tube. I'm confident enough to feel like I'll hear the difference, so someone HALP me plz. Nothing crazy expensive.

Eh, I'll look around.


----------



## M4573rm1nd

Hyde00 said:


> Oh and it might be way late to ask this point but, am I safe to assume tube to do make a decent amount of difference on Vali 2+?
> 
> What I mean is that there's one review I read on head-fi, the reviewer find that most Schiit tube amps more or less retain the "Schiit House Sound".  As in they get more soundstage / extension.......etc but for the most part the general sound signature retain more or less the same.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't say that the tubes sounds completely different and you will be able to undoubtfully say that is 6922EH and that is 6BZ7 when to A to B comparing them.  Sometimes it can be very similar sound with micro nuances difference.

What I can clearly confirm and agree with Mr Trev that 6CG7 sounds different to 6922 type of tubes. Also I can mention that brach of 6N23P, 6N23P-EV and 6922EH sharing one sound signature (so if you want to try 6N23P-EV you can save some money and buy 6922EH, gold would be good).

I never use high gain on my Vali2+ it's became to loud and shouty, unpleasant. There is only one tube from my stock that benefits from high gain.


----------



## Hyde00

Mr Trev said:


> I've read opinions on both sides of the matter. One person will hear a small, but noticable change in sound, but somebody in this thread (or the other vali2 thread) actually bought 2 amps and matching tubes and wasn't able to tell the difference in tubes.
> IME, I really can't tell much of a difference between tubes in the same family (6922, for example). I do hear a difference when changing types of tubes (6922 to 6cg7)
> I think really is rather subjective though, depending on a person's hearing, preferences and other equipment.
> 
> I've also read that high gain does have higher distortion (the good kind) than low and theoretically should sound tubier.


lol yes I saw that post on reddit, the guy who bought 2 Vali and a Sys so he can A/B between the 2 amps quickly.  And he mentioned he hear almost zero difference and while made me a bit hesitant a while back.  But then now I'm hearing good reports on Vali 2+ so I decide to give it a shot again.

I've also read another review where they couldn't tell any difference between Vali 2 and Magni 3 so the initial thought was like uhhhh then what's the point to get tube???

Though I'm usually pretty sensitive to changes between dac / amp / gain switches since I always check with the same headphone, so hopefully I'll notice something when I get my unit.  Also Vali 1 was suppose to be the more tubey one then Vali 2 is like linear then Vali 2+ is linear with stock tube I think, but hopefully tubey enough with other tubes.


M4573rm1nd said:


> I wouldn't say that the tubes sounds completely different and you will be able to undoubtfully say that is 6922EH and that is 6BZ7 when to A to B comparing them.  Sometimes it can be very similar sound with micro nuances difference.
> 
> What I can clearly confirm and agree with Mr Trev that 6CG7 sounds different to 6922 type of tubes. Also I can mention that brach of 6N23P, 6N23P-EV and 6922EH sharing one sound signature (so if you want to try 6N23P-EV you can save some money and buy 6922EH, gold would be good).
> 
> I never use high gain on my Vali2+ it's became to loud and shouty, unpleasant. There is only one tube from my stock that benefits from high gain.


lol I'll do a test when I get my unit, looking forward to it though.  Also thank you for your suggestions on the tubes, make the whole process of jumping into the tube world less scary.


----------



## Hyde00 (Mar 24, 2021)

Mad Lust Envy said:


> I may be opening a can of worms, but what tubves you guys recommend for a decent analog-ish tubey sound that is sweeter than stock. I'll be receivinbg a Vali 2+ fr impressions in the immediate future, and wanna roll a contrasty tube. I'm confident enough to feel like I'll hear the difference, so someone HALP me plz. Nothing crazy expensive.
> 
> Eh, I'll look around.


If you go one page prior to this, M4573rm1nd wrote a pretty detailed comparison with a bunch of tubes:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-372#post-16235896
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-372#post-16251414
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-372#post-16251442

But the summary is sort of like go for Siemens E88CC or Tesla E88CC Blue Tip or Tesla E88CC gold pin.

Though I don't know it would be "tubey" enough for what you're looking for.  I think hybrid amp (half tube half solid state) design usually has limitation on how far it can push as oppose to like OTL amps (full tube).  But OTL amps you're kind of limited to using 300 Ohm+ headphones.  Different pros and cons.

*EDIT:*  Wait I just realize you're Mad Lust Envy I think usually they send you products to review right?  LOL I guess you want something that sounds very different for review purpose right?  In that case then I'm not too sure LOL good luck!  Also looking forward to your impressions.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy (Mar 24, 2021)

The crazy thing is how the original Vali was the sweetest, most extraordinary sound I'd ever heard from an amp. It wasn't even close to the SS amps I had along side it. You could DEFINITELY hear the difference. And that was with stock tubes. It was so sweet, and euphoric. It just lacked soundstage, and hummed, and ringed like a mother.

@Hyde00

I went with EH 6922 Gold. He said it's warm and relaxed, so I figured it'd be my best bet as a contrast to the stock tube and ss amps I have.

And yeah, I wanted to stay in the Schiit family, and didn't wanna deal with too many tubes. My only choices were the Vali and Lyr, and I don't have the budget for a Lyr, and I'd use the Vali as a preamp to my Jotunheim 2 anyways, so I don't need Lyr power.


----------



## M4573rm1nd (Mar 24, 2021)

Mad Lust Envy said:


> The crazy thing is how the original Vali was the sweetest, most extraordinary sound I'd ever heard from an amp. It wasn't even close to the SS amps I had along side it. You could DEFINITELY hear the difference. And that was with stock tubes. It was so sweet, and euphoric. It just lacked soundstage, and hummed, and ringed like a mother.
> 
> @Hyde00
> 
> ...


You did the right choise. 6922EH gold is good tube to start with. It is the first tube which sound I did like and it's sound differs from 6BZ7. Hope you will be happy with it too. But once you started experiments with tubes it can't be stopped. So cancel the order and stay with stock tube 

It also have good glowing type:


----------



## Mr Trev

Mad Lust Envy said:


> I may be opening a can of worms, but what tubves you guys recommend for a decent analog-ish tubey sound that is sweeter than stock. I'll be receivinbg a Vali 2+ fr impressions in the immediate future, and wanna roll a contrasty tube. I'm confident enough to feel like I'll hear the difference, so someone HALP me plz. Nothing crazy expensive.
> 
> Eh, I'll look around.


Personally, I like the Vali better with "not-stock" tube types. If you don't want to mess with adapters - 6cg7 would be my choice. RCA cleartops and Matsushita are two that sound great and are reasonably cheap.
If adapters don't bother you, go for 12au7s. I have an EI Yugo that is still one of my alltime favs. - closest I've found to "out of your head".


----------



## Hyde00

Mr Trev said:


> Personally, I like the Vali better with "not-stock" tube types. If you don't want to mess with adapters - 6cg7 would be my choice. RCA cleartops and Matsushita are two that sound great and are reasonably cheap.
> If adapters don't bother you, go for 12au7s. I have an EI Yugo that is still one of my alltime favs. - closest I've found to "out of your head".


Sorry I'm still new to all this but...... aside from the "recommended" tube types, what other tube types can we use?

The "6" indicaste is 6V and "12" is 12V right?  Can Vali 2+ uses 12au7s?

Another example would be, I previously have heard Mullard 12AT7WA / CV4024 from a Project Ember and thought it sounded nice, would that work on Vali 2+?


----------



## Hyde00

Mad Lust Envy said:


> The crazy thing is how the original Vali was the sweetest, most extraordinary sound I'd ever heard from an amp. It wasn't even close to the SS amps I had along side it. You could DEFINITELY hear the difference. And that was with stock tubes. It was so sweet, and euphoric. It just lacked soundstage, and hummed, and ringed like a mother.
> 
> @Hyde00
> 
> ...


lol I'm hoping Vali 2+ would be best of both worlds between Vali 1 and Vali 2.  Looking forward to your impression.

I also previously had a chance to get a used Project Ember for $130 but I was too noob and didn't know any better so I got intimidated and passed up on the deal.  So now I can only afford Vali 2+ and can't afford Project Ember or Lyr 3 at full price LOL.


----------



## Mr Trev (Mar 24, 2021)

Hyde00 said:


> Sorry I'm still new to all this but...... aside from the "recommended" tube types, what other tube types can we use?
> 
> The "6" indicaste is 6V and "12" is 12V right?  Can Vali 2+ uses 12au7s?
> 
> Another example would be, I previously have heard Mullard 12AT7WA / CV4024 from a Project Ember and thought it sounded nice, would that work on Vali 2+?


With an adapter, 12au7 can work with the vali2 (12au7s will work with both 6v and 12v heaters). I'm not sure about the 12at7 though, I think it may have a different pinout.
I also have adapters for 5670 type tubes, 6sn7 type tubes, and ecc40 (I do have a 7n7 tube and adapter en route). There may be others, but this all I've tried and can confirm work.

Dang, sorry about that ember… for $130 I totally would jumped on it


----------



## bcowen

Mad Lust Envy said:


> The crazy thing is how the original Vali was the sweetest, most extraordinary sound I'd ever heard from an amp. It wasn't even close to the SS amps I had along side it. You could DEFINITELY hear the difference. And that was with stock tubes. It was so sweet, and euphoric. It just lacked soundstage, and hummed, and ringed like a mother.
> 
> @Hyde00
> 
> ...


Try one of these and call it a day.    

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-BRIMAR-...169833?hash=item447571d269:g:JakAAOSw2nNgEIpb


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

bcowen said:


> Try one of these and call it a day.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-BRIMAR-...169833?hash=item447571d269:g:JakAAOSw2nNgEIpb


If I find myself going into the deep end, I'll consider it lol.


----------



## Hyde00

sbtourist said:


> Great write up, I'd also recommend the MATSUSHITA / NATIONAL PCC88 / 7DJ8 for a warmer sound.





Mr Trev said:


> Personally, I like the Vali better with "not-stock" tube types. If you don't want to mess with adapters - 6cg7 would be my choice. RCA cleartops and Matsushita are two that sound great and are reasonably cheap.
> If adapters don't bother you, go for 12au7s. I have an EI Yugo that is still one of my alltime favs. - closest I've found to "out of your head".


So now there's 2 recommendations on the Matsushita tube....... I feel like I have to try it, but which version?  7DJ8 or 6CG7 or is there a difference?

Man I only just ordered the Tesla E88CC Blue Tip, why you guys doing this to me?


Mad Lust Envy said:


> If I find myself going into the deep end, I'll consider it lol.


I find now I'm doing a lot of tube shopping already and Schiit hasn't even ship my Vali 2+ yet (backorder).

This escalated quickly..... which reinforced my decision to avoid tube amps all this time LOL.


----------



## Hyde00

Mr Trev said:


> With an adapter, 12au7 can work with the vali2 (12au7s will work with both 6v and 12v heaters). I'm not sure about the 12at7 though, I think it may have a different pinout.
> I also have adapters for 5670 type tubes, 6sn7 type tubes, and ecc40 (I do have a 7n7 tube and adapter en route). There may be others, but this all I've tried and can confirm work.
> 
> Dang, sorry about that ember… for $130 I totally would jumped on it


Yeah now that I know what I didn't know back then, totally should've jumped on it LOL.


bcowen said:


> Try one of these and call it a day.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-BRIMAR-...169833?hash=item447571d269:g:JakAAOSw2nNgEIpb


Could you describe the sound a bit about this specific tube?


----------



## bcowen

Hyde00 said:


> Yeah now that I know what I didn't know back then, totally should've jumped on it LOL.
> 
> Could you describe the sound a bit about this specific tube?


On the warm-ish side, excellent detail retrieval, nicely extended highs without ever being fatiguing.  But what I like most about it is how it fleshes out every harmonic nuance and micro-detail in the midrange. Sounds like a tube, versus the stock Vali tube that sounds kind of solid-statish to me. It's not the most hammering tube in the bass (may be a little lacking if you're a metal-head), but it's nice and full down there just the same and nicely defined.  Just lacks that last bit of wallop.  I'm not even a Brimar fan-boy.  At all really...I have a few 6SN7's and 6J5's that leave me underwhelmed, but this particular tube in the Vali 2 (not "+", the older plain "2" version) is my second favorite of all I've listened to in that amp (and my favorite requires an adapter).  About 9 months or a year ago there was an Ebay seller that had a bunch of these. I bought a pair mostly because the price was good and thought why not give it a try....ended up going back and buying another couple pairs just to stash up because I liked it so much.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> With an adapter, 12au7 can work with the vali2 (12au7s will work with both 6v and 12v heaters). I'm not sure about the 12at7 though, I think it may have a different pinout.
> I also have adapters for 5670 type tubes, 6sn7 type tubes, and ecc40 (I do have a 7n7 tube and adapter en route). There may be others, but this all I've tried and can confirm work.
> 
> Dang, sorry about that ember… for $130 I totally would jumped on it


The 12AT7 has the same pinout as the 12AU7, as does the 12AX7.  All three are dual voltage (6.3v or 12.6v), they only differ in gain.  The 12AU7 is the lowest gain with an amplification factor of around 20, the 12AT7 is next with a factor of about 60, and the 12AX7 is highest with an amplification factor of around 100.  12AT7's can work in many circuits that use a 12AU7 natively without issue, but the 12AX7 probably won't due to the significantly higher gain.


----------



## Mr Trev

Hyde00 said:


> So now there's 2 recommendations on the Matsushita tube....... I feel like I have to try it, but which version?  7DJ8 or 6CG7 or is there a difference?
> 
> Man I only just ordered the Tesla E88CC Blue Tip, why you guys doing this to me?
> 
> ...



I totally forgot about the 7DJ8. It is probably far easier to find a Matsu 7DJ8 than the 6CG7 - at least without having to pay a s-load for shipping from the Old World.



bcowen said:


> The 12AT7 has the same pinout as the 12AU7, as does the 12AX7.  All three are dual voltage (6.3v or 12.6v), they only differ in gain.  The 12AU7 is the lowest gain with an amplification factor of around 20, the 12AT7 is next with a factor of about 60, and the 12AX7 is highest with an amplification factor of around 100.  12AT7's can work in many circuits that use a 12AU7 natively without issue, but the 12AX7 probably won't due to the significantly higher gain.


I remember reading a disclaimer somewhere that one of those 12A-7 weren't quite a drop in replacement for the 12AU7. Of course I can't remember where or why - but it wasn't just the gain.


----------



## Hyde00

Mr Trev said:


> I totally forgot about the 7DJ8. It is probably far easier to find a Matsu 7DJ8 than the 6CG7 - at least without having to pay a s-load for shipping from the Old World.
> 
> 
> I remember reading a disclaimer somewhere that one of those 12A-7 weren't quite a drop in replacement for the 12AU7. Of course I can't remember where or why - but it wasn't just the gain.


lol yeah a good ebay search do net me more results on 7DJ8 it seems, maybe I'll stick to 7DJ8 if I ever do purchase one.

Uh so would you say it's safer to stick with 12AU7 as oppose to 12AT7 or 12AX7?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I totally forgot about the 7DJ8. It is probably far easier to find a Matsu 7DJ8 than the 6CG7 - at least without having to pay a s-load for shipping from the Old World.
> 
> 
> I remember reading a disclaimer somewhere that one of those 12A-7 weren't quite a drop in replacement for the 12AU7. Of course I can't remember where or why - but it wasn't just the gain.


They all have the same pinout and pretty much the same specs....just different gain.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> They all have the same pinout and pretty much the same specs....just different gain.


Mayhaps I'm confusing it with those ultra rare 12Að7?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Mayhaps I'm confusing it with those ultra rare 12Að7?


Probably the 12Awful7's, made only by GE.


----------



## Hyde00

A quick google tells me pin 9 is different from 12au7 vs like 6922 family.  Would it still be safe to use on Vali 2+ or should I avoid it?

Also are 6cg8 and 7dj8 the same pin out?  I read there's voltage difference but what does that translate to practical use?


----------



## Mr Trev (Mar 25, 2021)

For the Vali2 you need an adapter for the 12au7. I have one like this: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1pc-Gold-pl...-to-ECC88-6922-6DJ8-Tube-adapter/192035120609. And since I needed the 12au7 adapter, I bought this to use 6sn7 as well: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1PC-6SN7-TO...ket-Adapter-Socket-Converter-DIY/233942569282

6cg7 and 7dj8 will work without an adapter

@bcowen , have you spied these adapters yet? https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1pc-6N16B-6N17B-instead-ECC88-6922-6CG7-tube-converter-adapter/202597577146
There's 6sn7 versions too, would be great in the DV


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> For the Vali2 you need an adapter for the 12au7. I have one like this: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1pc-Gold-pl...-to-ECC88-6922-6DJ8-Tube-adapter/192035120609. And since I needed the 12au7 adapter, I bought this to use 6sn7 as well: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1PC-6SN7-TO...ket-Adapter-Socket-Converter-DIY/233942569282
> 
> 6cg7 and 7dj8 will work without an adapter
> 
> ...


No, I hadn't seen those before.  Interesting!


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> No, I hadn't seen those before.  Interesting!


Honestly, the biggest reason I've never tried any of them little tubes is because I'm just too lazy to solder them up. Seems like now I wouldn't have to.
That'll be a "later" consideration, tho. My tubes from lowtechelec should finally be here midweek, and Deyan was supposed to have shipped my adapter on the 22nd. Should keep me busy for a bit.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 25, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Honestly, the biggest reason I've never tried any of them little tubes is because I'm just too lazy to solder them up. Seems like now I wouldn't have to.
> That'll be a "later" consideration, tho. My tubes from lowtechelec should finally be here midweek, and Deyan was supposed to have shipped my adapter on the 22nd. Should keep me busy for a bit.


Oh, geeez.  It is virtually impossible for anyone to be lazier than me.   I do like those adapters you linked better though.  

These are a Mullard CV3986 into a 6922 socket:











And a Melz 6N16B into an octal socket:


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Oh, geeez.  It is virtually impossible for anyone to be lazier than me.   I do like those adapters you linked better though.
> 
> These are a Mullard CV3986 into a 6922 socket:
> 
> ...


You didn't have any issues with noise or interference with the leads that long?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> You didn't have any issues with noise or interference with the leads that long?


Nope.  None at all.


----------



## Hyde00 (Mar 27, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Personally, I like the Vali better with "not-stock" tube types. If you don't want to mess with adapters - 6cg7 would be my choice. RCA cleartops and Matsushita are two that sound great and are reasonably cheap.
> If adapters don't bother you, go for 12au7s. I have an EI Yugo that is still one of my alltime favs. - closest I've found to "out of your head".


Sorry I'm a little bit late, took a bit of time to comprehend all this.

I tried to look up 12au7s El Yugo, I could only find 12ax7 El Yugo instead.  Is the 12au7s version more rare?

Also if it's 12ax7 then it wouldn't work with Vali 2+ right (as we discussed earlier)?

*EDIT:*  Now I'm staring at the eBay posts on Matsushita and RCA Clear Top, LOL this hobby is dangerous.  But I'll wait for what you have to say regarding the 12au7s El Yugo first.


----------



## Mr Trev

Hyde00 said:


> Sorry I'm a little bit late, took a bit of time to comprehend all this.
> 
> I tried to look up 12au7s El Yugo, I could only find 12ax7 El Yugo instead.  Is the 12au7s version more rare?
> 
> ...


Yup, they don't seems to be very common anymore.
There's this one: https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/938971066/ei-yugoslavia-12au7-ecc82-vacuum-tube
I'm not sure what vintage mine is, but it's branded "Orion Radio" (from Hungary, I think).

The one question I'd have is that the "Transconductance measured  1600/2200 micromhos". Apparently 2200 is typical for "new". But how far off between the two sides is too much? - this would be a general question for all tubes (@bcowen maybe you can answer this for me since I really don't know what any of these measurements actually mean).

Otherwise, Jeffrey at Lowtechelec is a great guy to deal with, and his prices are extremely reasonable for us up north.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Yup, they don't seems to be very common anymore.
> There's this one: https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/938971066/ei-yugoslavia-12au7-ecc82-vacuum-tube
> I'm not sure what vintage mine is, but it's branded "Orion Radio" (from Hungary, I think).
> 
> ...


It really depends on the seller.  Some state that a 20% spread is a "great match" and I don't agree with that at all.  I think more of a general but unwritten industry convention is that 10% or less difference is a good match.  I try for 5% with the tubes I use.  But a lot depends on how high they test.  If both sections are within 20% of NOS, any imbalance will likely be inaudible (for instance, one section tests at 10% higher than bogey/NOS and the other tests at 10% below bogey/NOS).  In your example, if 2200 is bogey, then the other section is still above minimum (with minimum usually being around 60% of NOS), so an imbalance probably won't be audible....probably.  Depends on the tube and the amp it's used in as well.  Power tubes like 6550's, KT-88's, EL-34's, etc are going to be less forgiving with big GM or emission differences.  Small octals and novals not so much...usually.  But 1600/2200 is a 22% difference.  Not a tube I'd go after personally with that big a difference, but that's just me.

Don't know if this explanation helps at all or just confuses things worse (which is one of my specialties ).


----------



## Ripper2860

Bill taught me it's either 10% or less or it's a no-go. I think he says that to keep folks looking while he's buying.  😒


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Bill taught me it's either 10% or less or it's a no-go. I think he says that to keep folks looking while he's buying.  😒


Any of yours that were 10.00001% or more got thrown away.  You know, just to save you the cost of shipping such worthless tubes back.  That's what friends are for, right?


----------



## Ripper2860

There's no denying your  overwhelming kindness and generosity.  🙄


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> It really depends on the seller.  Some state that a 20% spread is a "great match" and I don't agree with that at all.  I think more of a general but unwritten industry convention is that 10% or less difference is a good match.  I try for 5% with the tubes I use.  But a lot depends on how high they test.  If both sections are within 20% of NOS, any imbalance will likely be inaudible (for instance, one section tests at 10% higher than bogey/NOS and the other tests at 10% below bogey/NOS).  In your example, if 2200 is bogey, then the other section is still above minimum (with minimum usually being around 60% of NOS), so an imbalance probably won't be audible....probably.  Depends on the tube and the amp it's used in as well.  Power tubes like 6550's, KT-88's, EL-34's, etc are going to be less forgiving with big GM or emission differences.  Small octals and novals not so much...usually.  But 1600/2200 is a 22% difference.  Not a tube I'd go after personally with that big a difference, but that's just me.
> 
> Don't know if this explanation helps at all or just confuses things worse (which is one of my specialties ).


That covered it. What measurements mean are one thing I've never really bothered looking into - I'm getting too old to do new book learning, it'll end up pushing out the stuff I've already learnt.

So, how do test values effect the sq?
Back when I first bought a tube amp and was wondering why anybody would even look at ads where the tubes have lousy test values. Then I started thinking… well, what if I went out and bought a whole bunch of "bad" tubes for dirt cheap. Then listen to 'em and see what I like so I'd know what "good" tubes to start looking for. The sticking point was I have no idea how bad a measurement can get before the sound falls off a cliff.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 27, 2021)

Unbalanced triodes tend to manifest itself as channel imbalance.  Most amps auto-bias to try and make-up for element imbalance, but there's only so much  auto-biasing can do.  Where that line is, I'm not sure, but 10% seems a reasonable number where one is not at the mercy of corrective measures in the amp.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> That covered it. What measurements mean are one thing I've never really bothered looking into - I'm getting too old to do new book learning, it'll end up pushing out the stuff I've already learnt.
> 
> So, how do test values effect the sq?
> Back when I first bought a tube amp and was wondering why anybody would even look at ads where the tubes have lousy test values. Then I started thinking… well, what if I went out and bought a whole bunch of "bad" tubes for dirt cheap. Then listen to 'em and see what I like so I'd know what "good" tubes to start looking for. The sticking point was I have no idea how bad a measurement can get before the sound falls off a cliff.


Here's the chicken/egg, cart/horse thing:  if you get a tube and it doesn't sound good to you, is it because the tube doesn't mate well with your equipment or preferences, or because the tube is worn out and not producing sound like it should?  That's the whole reason I got a tube tester (or 2....hundred), as I've purchased many tubes over the years that were well spoken of by many, and when I listened to them I thought they sounded like dreck. Once able to test some of those I found they were well below minimum GM levels, so it wasn't that the tube (type) itself didn't have the qualities many spoke favorably of, it's just they were worn out.  There are some good Ebay sellers that are honest and reliable, but unfortunately they are outnumbered by either sheer fraudsters or people that aren't necessarily dishonest, they just don't have a clue.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Here's the chicken/egg, cart/horse thing:  if you get a tube and it doesn't sound good to you, is it because the tube doesn't mate well with your equipment or preferences, or because the tube is worn out and not producing sound like it should?  That's the whole reason I got a tube tester (or 2....hundred), as I've purchased many tubes over the years that were well spoken of by many, and when I listened to them I thought they sounded like dreck. Once able to test some of those I found they were well below minimum GM levels, so it wasn't that the tube (type) itself didn't have the qualities many spoke favorably of, it's just they were worn out.  There are some good Ebay sellers that are honest and reliable, but unfortunately they are outnumbered by either sheer fraudsters or people that aren't necessarily dishonest, they just don't have a clue.


...about tubes, tube testing, and test result presentation.


----------



## Hyde00

Mr Trev said:


> Yup, they don't seems to be very common anymore.
> There's this one: https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/938971066/ei-yugoslavia-12au7-ecc82-vacuum-tube
> I'm not sure what vintage mine is, but it's branded "Orion Radio" (from Hungary, I think).
> 
> ...


lol damn I never knew etsy sells tube too, good find!  Though based on what bcowen said maybe I'll stick to Matshushita and RCA Clear Top this time to be on the safe side.

Thanks for the explanation though!


----------



## Ripper2860

That seller is very reputable and recommended by several at HF - myself included.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> That seller is very reputable and recommended by several at HF - myself included.



And @Ripper2860 has a thoroughly rebuilt and pristinely calibrated tube tester so he can check what he gets to be sure it's as advertised.     

Here's my current project.  Let's just say it will look a wee bit better when I'm done with it (oh, and will work too).


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> And @Ripper2860 has a thoroughly rebuilt and pristinely calibrated tube tester so he can check what he gets to be sure it's as advertised.
> 
> Here's my current project.  Let's just say it will look a wee bit better when I'm done with it (oh, and will work too).


Oh, I’m sorry: I thought that this project was done.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Oh, I’m sorry: I thought that this project was done.


This is my third Hickok 800A.  Honestly, those pics may be from the last one I did, but the current one looked pretty much the same.  And it is _almost_ done...


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Here's the chicken/egg, cart/horse thing:  if you get a tube and it doesn't sound good to you, is it because the tube doesn't mate well with your equipment or preferences, or because the tube is worn out and not producing sound like it should?  That's the whole reason I got a tube tester (or 2....hundred), as I've purchased many tubes over the years that were well spoken of by many, and when I listened to them I thought they sounded like dreck. Once able to test some of those I found they were well below minimum GM levels, so it wasn't that the tube (type) itself didn't have the qualities many spoke favorably of, it's just they were worn out.  There are some good Ebay sellers that are honest and reliable, but unfortunately they are outnumbered by either sheer fraudsters or people that aren't necessarily dishonest, they just don't have a clue.


Sure, I get that, what I was wondering is how bad a tube can test, but still sound fine. Is min. GM the cutoff?
Hypothetically, could I go out and buy half a dozen known bad testing TSRP (but still sound ok) for dirt cheap. Listen to one for 6 mo. (or until it is unquestionably fubar), toss it, repeat.


----------



## Ripper2860

..."but still sound OK" is pretty subjective.  Another's OK sounding tube would likely be 'Batman Bill's' absolute trash sounding tube.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> ..."but still sound OK" is pretty subjective.  Another's OK sounding tube would likely be 'Batman Bill's' absolute trash sounding tube.


Hate to say I agree with you, so I won't. But I do.   

I don't know that there's an 'either/or' answer to the question, honestly.  Some tubes may sound just fine at minimum and even below, and some may start sounding soft with a loss of dynamics and reduced bass punch and drive.  And it could be manufacturer specific as well, for instance an RCA 12AU7 might sound good at 50% GM while a Tung Sol wouldn't (I'm just tossing those out for illustration, not as any known fact or experience with either one).


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Hate to say I agree with you, so I won't. But I do.


Or:  “I’m surprised that you agree with me! Well done!” 😜😜


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 28, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Hate to say I agree with you, so I won't. But I do.
> 
> I don't know that there's an 'either/or' answer to the question, honestly.  Some tubes may sound just fine at minimum and even below, and some may start sounding soft with a loss of dynamics and reduced bass punch and drive.  And it could be manufacturer specific as well, for instance an RCA 12AU7 might sound good at 50% GM while a Tung Sol wouldn't (I'm just tossing those out for illustration, not as any known fact or experience with either one).


Also, wouldn’t such parametres as current draw / current required from a tube within a circuit affect sonics of a tube <= minimum: ie, “how hard a tube has to work” [ non-EE ruminating here] ?


----------



## bl4scott

I have been running 6sn7 primarily since I got my vali 2 but intrigued by the 12au7.  Is it worth getting an adapter and venturing down this rabbit hole as well?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Also, wouldn’t such parametres as current draw / current required from a tube within a circuit affect sonics of a tube <= minimum: ie, “how hard a tube has to work” [ non-EE ruminating here] ?


Yup.  And how the tube is used in the circuit would be a factor as well.  I would imagine ('cause I'm a non-EE too) that the output of the tube has less influence in a hybrid design (Vali 2, Lyr 3, etc.) than it would in an amp that amplifies via tubes only.


----------



## Mr Trev

bl4scott said:


> I have been running 6sn7 primarily since I got my vali 2 but intrigued by the 12au7.  Is it worth getting an adapter and venturing down this rabbit hole as well?


Absolutely!
Too much is never enough.


----------



## jonathan c

bl4scott said:


> I have been running 6sn7 primarily since I got my vali 2 but intrigued by the 12au7.  Is it worth getting an adapter and venturing down this rabbit hole as well?


Yes it is. As you go down this particular rabbit hole, you will find an intercontinental rabbit tunnel system that connects all these rabbit holes around the globe. The British definitely have things right in calling the London subway the ‘Tube’...


----------



## bl4scott

jonathan c said:


> Yes it is. As you go down this particular rabbit hole, you will find an intercontinental rabbit tunnel system that connects all these rabbit holes around the globe. The British definitely have things right in calling the London subway the ‘Tube’...


Lol, I am not sure how helpful this is to my pocketbook guys but I guess I will start looking.  What would be your first if you could choose?


----------



## Mr Trev

bl4scott said:


> Lol, I am not sure how helpful this is to my pocketbook guys but I guess I will start looking.  What would be your first if you could choose?


You probably can't go wrong with an RCA cleartop. Any of the organ branded tubes (Baldwin, Hammond, etc.) should be good options too.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> You probably can't go wrong with an RCA cleartop. Any of the organ branded tubes (Baldwin, Hammond, etc.) should be good options too.


Organ tubes.  I'm not even going there unless HeadFi has a porn thread I somehow missed...


----------



## Mr Trev (Mar 29, 2021)

Instead of tube rolling, I have a tube storing question…
What do you guys do with boxless tubes? I've just been wrapping mine with bubblewrap and keeping them in a plastic container

<edit> forgot to mention: the first rule of porn-fi… never talk about porn-fi


----------



## KoshNaranek

Mr Trev said:


> Instead of tube rolling, I have a tube storing question…
> What do you guys do with boxless tubes? I've just been wrapping mine with bubblewrap and keeping them in a plastic container
> 
> <edit> forgot to mention: the first rule of porn-fi… never talk about porn-fi


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Instead of tube rolling, I have a tube storing question…
> What do you guys do with boxless tubes? I've just been wrapping mine with bubblewrap and keeping them in a plastic container
> 
> <edit> forgot to mention: the first rule of porn-fi… never talk about porn-fi



https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/tube-boxes-generic-storing-vacuum-tubes

https://tubedepot.com/t/other-stuff/tube-boxes


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/tube-boxes-generic-storing-vacuum-tubes
> 
> https://tubedepot.com/t/other-stuff/tube-boxes


Thanks, but I'm guessing the shipping will be 10x more than the boxes themselves


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/tube-boxes-generic-storing-vacuum-tubes
> 
> https://tubedepot.com/t/other-stuff/tube-boxes


Thank you for this. I have a number of tubes with old boxes in varying degrees of disrepair - torn flaps, etc.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Thanks, but I'm guessing the shipping will be 10x more than the boxes themselves


Not if you buy a bunch of them.     More seriously, I've seen people use the cardboard core from empty toilet paper and paper towel rolls.  Seems they'd be about the right diameter for a 6SN7 or other straight bottle octal.  

I usually add some boxes every now and then when I'm ordering other things, so the shipping doesn't really stand out.  Antique Electronics is like a Toys 'R' Us, except with way cooler toys.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 29, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Not if you buy a bunch of them.     More seriously, I've seen people use the cardboard core from empty toilet paper and paper towel rolls.  Seems they'd be about the right diameter for a 6SN7 or other straight bottle octal.
> 
> I usually add some boxes every now and then when I'm ordering other things, so the shipping doesn't really stand out.  Antique Electronics is like a Toys 'R' Us, except with way cooler toys.


It seems that the only tube suited for wrapping by a t/p roll core would be a rectal...😖👎


----------



## Hyde00

bl4scott said:


> Lol, I am not sure how helpful this is to my pocketbook guys but I guess I will start looking.  What would be your first if you could choose?


I've been following this thread for a while, so from what I've gathered is that these are good starting point:

*Tesla E88CC Blue Tip
Siemens E88CC*
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-372#post-16235896
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-372#post-16251414

*Matsushita 7DJ8
RCA Clear Top 6CG7 (or 12AU7 if you have adapter)*
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-374#post-16257901
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-372#post-16242309

*Brimar 6BQ7A*
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-374#post-16258479


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 30, 2021)

Hyde00 said:


> I've been following this thread for a while, so from what I've gathered is that these are good starting point:
> 
> *Tesla E88CC Blue Tip
> Siemens E88CC*
> ...


Yes and all subject to availability. What is your budget limit per tube? Dealers such as Upscale Audio have high quality selection with much tube knowledge and charge more.


----------



## emorrison33

I purchased this tube from Tube Depot.  Philips PCC88.  Doesn't a white top mean that the tube was compromised/leaked?


----------



## emorrison33

emorrison33 said:


> I purchased this tube from Tube Depot.  Philips PCC88.  Doesn't a white top mean that the tube was compromised/leaked?


I contacted Tube Depot, and they said it's bad.  They are sending me a replacement.  What would happen if I had stuck this into my Vali 2?


----------



## InvisibleInk

emorrison33 said:


> I contacted Tube Depot, and they said it's bad.  They are sending me a replacement.  What would happen if I had stuck this into my Vali 2?


It might have blasted off and launched 5 feet into the air before exploding and showering the immediate area with glass shrapnel! 🚀🧨


----------



## Hyde00

emorrison33 said:


> I contacted Tube Depot, and they said it's bad.  They are sending me a replacement.  What would happen if I had stuck this into my Vali 2?


At least they're sending you a replacement, that's good then.


InvisibleInk said:


> It might have blasted off and launched 5 feet into the air before exploding and showering the immediate area with glass shrapnel! 🚀🧨


 LOL jokes aside would it cause any serious issue? Or just bad sound but otherwise ok?


----------



## jonathan c

Hyde00 said:


> At least they're sending you a replacement, that's good then.
> 
> LOL jokes aside would it cause any serious issue? Or just bad sound but otherwise ok?


It looks as though the vacuum was breached; there is no reflective material inside the tube top. I doubt that the tube would function. If it were in the Vali 2, my guess is that any circuit protection would be tripped.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 30, 2021)

InvisibleInk said:


> It might have blasted off and launched 5 feet into the air before exploding and showering the immediate area with glass shrapnel! 🚀🧨


Oh please.  Talk about exaggerating.  It could, however, have formed a singularity and quickly developed a black hole consuming most of the Milky Way galaxy. Disaster avoided, thankfully.


----------



## bcowen

Hyde00 said:


> At least they're sending you a replacement, that's good then.
> 
> LOL jokes aside would it cause any serious issue? Or just bad sound but otherwise ok?


It would probably not sound at all.  The loss of vacuum would cause the filaments to fry instantly (like losing vacuum in a light bulb).  No filaments = no heat to the cathodes =  no electron emission.


----------



## Mr Trev

Got my 7n7 adapter (less than 2 weeks from Bulgaria, quicker than it took to get the tube from the US - go figure) and can finally try out the much coveted "Frankie". So far the only bad thing I can say is that since I unceremoniously de-LEDed my Vali2, and the "Frankie" has so much getter flashing, I can't tell if the amp is turned on or not.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Got my 7n7 adapter (less than 2 weeks from Bulgaria, quicker than it took to get the tube from the US - go figure) and can finally try out the much coveted "Frankie". So far the only bad thing I can say is that since I unceremoniously de-LEDed my Vali2, and the "Frankie" has so much getter flashing, I can't tell if the amp is turned on or not.


LOL!  If you turn the volume knob up and hear sound in the headphones, it's likely on.  Hope this helps.


----------



## Hyde00 (Apr 5, 2021)

So uhhhhh I'm still forever waiting for my Vali 2+ to ship (April 15th). Figure now I have some time to kill I need some opinions.

I'm currently using Denon AH-D2000 and I believe Vali 2+ will be plenty to drive these. I've been debating to get an Argon T60RP down the line, but would the Vali 2+ even drive the Argon well? (I know the recommended amp is Emotiva BasX with its 8W output, but figure I'd ask anyway lol).

Anyone actually tried T50RP / T60RP on the Vali 2+?

Also I've been wondering what to get for a D2000 upgrade (sorry derail the topic a bit). The next step up is TH610 but I heard it's very neutral so it's better to step all the way up to TH900 MK2 (or used TH900) if I want to retain that bottomless bass. Anyone know anything regarding this?

Ok now back to forever waiting for Vali 2+ to ship lol.

EDIT: also bought 3 tubes already so I'm also forever waiting for tubes to arrive too.


----------



## emorrison33

I'm currently on page 364 of this thread, starting from the beginning.  I just purchased an a 6922 to 6SN7 adapter from @Deyan and am looking for my first 6SN7 tube.  Vivatubes has the new production Psvane tubes (CV-181T MKII, 6SN7-SE tennis ball & 6SN7-UK) and I like the looks, but how do they sound?  My favorite tube so far has been the Philips PCC88 (mentioned a few posts back).  I have mostly Grado HP's so I like to tame the highs a little, rather than using the Loki. Trying to keep it under $100 for my first 6SN7 tube.  I saw this tube as well: https://www.vivatubes.com/tests-nos-sylvania-usa-6sn7wgta-black-t-plate-top-o-get-brown-base-tube/
What do you "experts" think?


----------



## Deyan

emorrison33 said:


> I'm currently on page 364 of this thread, starting from the beginning.  I just purchased an a 6922 to 6SN7 adapter from @Deyan and am looking for my first 6SN7 tube.  Vivatubes has the new production Psvane tubes (CV-181T MKII, 6SN7-SE tennis ball & 6SN7-UK) and I like the looks, but how do they sound?  My favorite tube so far has been the Philips PCC88 (mentioned a few posts back).  I have mostly Grado HP's so I like to tame the highs a little, rather than using the Loki. Trying to keep it under $100 for my first 6SN7 tube.  I saw this tube as well: https://www.vivatubes.com/tests-nos-sylvania-usa-6sn7wgta-black-t-plate-top-o-get-brown-base-tube/
> What do you "experts" think?




And the adapter itself is complete.


----------



## M4573rm1nd

Got that all recommended Matshuhita 7DJ8 tube. It sounds pretty good. Compared to my favorite Siemens E88CC it have more forward mids, slightly less bass, highs about the same. For my taste I will stay with Siemens E88CC - it has more warm and bassy sounding that I like.


----------



## M4573rm1nd

Also exellent tube adapter came to me from fellow Deyan (thank you again) that can convert 6SN7 tubes to 6922 type. Need some always limited time to listen my 6SN7 tubes collection to write review on them. Respond if it will be useful and interesting. This tubes so far I have:


----------



## M4573rm1nd

Did update of DAC to Schiit Modi 3 Multibit. Got myself schitty stack) DAC have different sound signature? that leads me to rethink my tubes preferences. At least it seems that with Siemens E88CC sound becomes too warm... Got any thoughts on?


----------



## Ripper2860

There is no Modi 3 Multibit.  Modi 3 is a DS DAC. Modi Multibit is the multibit DAC.  Which one do you have?


----------



## M4573rm1nd

Ripper2860 said:


> There is no Modi 3 Multibit.  Modi 3 is a DS DAC. Modi Multibit is the multibit DAC.  Which one do you have?


My is Modi Multibit (ver.2 I think, current version).


----------



## Hyde00

Yeah I do find Multibit is quite a bit warmer than most delta sigma dacs I've tried.

Unfortunately Schiit says they're short on parts so they couldn't make the Vali 2+ yet.  I've ordered probably like 1+ month ago and they haven't ship it yet.  All the tubes I ordered have already arrived just no amp.


----------



## Hyde00

I finally got my Vali 2+!!!  After like 1+ month of waiting before they even ship lol.

First impression, to be honest even the stock tube is not bad at all lol.  Just a little bit dry sounding compare to other tubes.  Also kind of no sound stage in low gain but high gain open it up.  I've purchased the Tesla E88CC Blue Tip, Matsushita 7DJ8, and RCA Clear Top 6CG7.  All 3 tubes open it up more compare to stock tube too.

Off the bat I like the Tesla E88CC the best, feels like everything's there and nothing is missing.  RCA Clear Top is very close too in sound signature but slightly different, can't put my finger on it yet need to listen to it more.  Matsushita is also pretty good but a little bit more relaxed sounding with less treble.  I think I like my treble so I prefer the other 2 tubes, but I can see people prefer this over the other 2 if they are treble sensitive.

Now I'm still a bit undecided if I like low gain or high gain better.  High gain seems to just open everything up but everything got a bit "looser" and a bit more echoey.  Where as low gain everything tight and clean but less sound stage and also feels a bit "restrained" if that makes sense.  If only they have a mid gain LOL.  But my guess is that low gain use more of the solid state portion and high gain use more of the tube portion.

Again I only just got it so need to burn in / listen to it more.  Although off the bat I already like it better than my Project Polaris which costs more ($250 vs $150).

Will update you guys as I listen to it more.


----------



## Ripper2860

Low gain uses more feedback which seems to diminish some of the dynamics.


----------



## Hyde00

Ripper2860 said:


> Low gain uses more feedback which seems to diminish some of the dynamics.


Ahhh that makes sense, hence the "open up" feeling when switching to high gain.  But then it feels a bit too "loose" in high gain so I need to listen more and decide which I like better.

Another minor complaint is that I wish they kept the white LED.  I know it's a stupid thing but I wish there's some glow inside the case that peeks out from the gap / holes.  I read that they figure the tube already glow so they didn't want to distract its natural glow with another white LED.  But I wish it glow more LOL.


----------



## Ripper2860

Very nice setup.


----------



## Mr Trev

Hyde00 said:


> Ahhh that makes sense, hence the "open up" feeling when switching to high gain.  But then it feels a bit too "loose" in high gain so I need to listen more and decide which I like better.
> 
> Another minor complaint is that I wish they kept the white LED.  I know it's a stupid thing but I wish there's some glow inside the case that peeks out from the gap / holes.  I read that they figure the tube already glow so they didn't want to distract its natural glow with another white LED.  But I wish it glow more LOL.


I totally disagree with you on the LED. I couldn't rip (literally) that @$*!er out fast enough. I swear, I've seen night-lights that aren't that bright.


----------



## Hyde00

Ripper2860 said:


> Very nice setup.


lol thanks!

Still need to clean my desk on the left side where you guys can't see.   


Mr Trev said:


> I totally disagree with you on the LED. I couldn't rip (literally) that @$*!er out fast enough. I swear, I've seen night-lights that aren't that bright.


Well luckily my desk is not in the bedroom LOL.

But yeah between Vali 2 to Vali 2+ they got rid of the LED.


----------



## bcowen

Hyde00 said:


> Well luckily my desk is not in the bedroom LOL.
> 
> But yeah between Vali 2 to Vali 2+ they got rid of the LED.


With my Vali 2, Modi Multibit, and EITR all stacked together and their 32,000 candlepower LED's glowing beaming glaring in unison, I didn't need any other lights on in the house. My neighbors must have thought I was growing marijuana.


----------



## Hyde00

bcowen said:


> With my Vali 2, Modi Multibit, and EITR all stacked together and their 32,000 candlepower LED's glowing beaming glaring in unison, I didn't need any other lights on in the house. My neighbors must have thought I was growing marijuana.


LOL at Candlepower!  I think measurement of light is Lumens or Candela but Candlepower sounds cooler LOL.

You should add a Loki to your beam forming, after all audio gear sound the best in pairs (Vali, Mimby, Eitr and Loki). 

On a side note, Vali 2+ (in fact, any Schiit amp, Asgard was bad too) vol pot is one of the worst I've used in any dac/amp LOL.  iFi Nano Black Label, Monoprice Liquid Spark, and Project Ember / Project Polaris all have amazing pot.  Somehow Schiit manage to source the scratchiest potentiometer in the industry.

How complicated if one decides to get a different volume pot?  Like can we just buy the parts and desolder the old one and solder on the new one?

Or is it something that would smooth out overtime as I use it?


----------



## bcowen

Hyde00 said:


> LOL at Candlepower!  I think measurement of light is Lumens or Candela but Candlepower sounds cooler LOL.
> 
> You should add a Loki to your beam forming, after all audio gear sound the best in pairs (Vali, Mimby, Eitr and Loki).
> 
> ...


Do you mean scratchy sonically (like noisy through your headphones when you rotate it), or scratchy in its "feel" as you rotate it?  If the latter, a few squirts of FaderLube might help quite a bit.  I have the OG Vali 2 and not the 2+, so not sure if the volume pots are the same (but they probably are). Looking at the picture on Schiit's site it looks like you could get some squirted in between the shaft and the outer threaded barrel.  Can't make any promises this would work, but it might.  





FaderLube is great stuff to have around for a lot of things.  Safe for plastics, and continues to lubricate for a long time.  Below from Amazon just as an example....you may have a better/easier/cheaper source up north. 

https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-F5S-H6-...ld=1&keywords=faderlube&qid=1619573378&sr=8-1


----------



## Hyde00

Yeah I mean scratchy as in physically turning it.  Also there is a bit of wiggle between changing direction where nothing happens.

Maybe I'm used to dac/amp with volume pot turns with less resistance and also glides perfectly as you turn them.

I'll have a look at FaderLube, thanks!!!


----------



## bcowen

Hyde00 said:


> Yeah I mean scratchy as in physically turning it.  Also there is a bit of wiggle between changing direction where nothing happens.
> 
> Maybe I'm used to dac/amp with volume pot turns with less resistance and also glides perfectly as you turn them.
> 
> I'll have a look at FaderLube, thanks!!!


If it were me, I'd try the FaderLube first.  Replacing that pot would not only immediately void your warranty, but you might find it pretty difficult to source a better pot that's small enough to fit and still line up correctly in the chassis.


----------



## Hyde00

Oh that's true, I didn't think about that.  Ok I might just use it as is first see if it smooth out from use, if not then I'll give FaderLube a try, thanks!


----------



## Hyde00

This might be a stupid question but how safe is it to stack Vali 2+ with Mimby?

They both get kind of hot, if anything Mimby actually gets slightly warmer than Vali 2+.

By stack I mean put it on top of each other.  I've been putting them side by side since I put them under the monitor, but I think they still fit stacked under monitor so I was thinking to give that a try.

This should be fine right?  Or would Mimby overheat?


----------



## Mr Trev

Hyde00 said:


> This might be a stupid question but how safe is it to stack Vali 2+ with Mimby?
> 
> They both get kind of hot, if anything Mimby actually gets slightly warmer than Vali 2+.
> 
> ...


I don't have a Mimby, but I've being stacking my Vali2 on my Topping D30 forever without a problem.
Heck I've even stacked my P1 (class A) without a glitch


----------



## bcowen

Hyde00 said:


> This might be a stupid question but how safe is it to stack Vali 2+ with Mimby?
> 
> They both get kind of hot, if anything Mimby actually gets slightly warmer than Vali 2+.
> 
> ...


Not a problem.  I ran mine like that for quite some time. Eventually bought one of those mini-racks, but there's enough room between the top of the Mimby and the bottom of the Vali 2 for heat to escape.


----------



## Hyde00

Mr Trev said:


> I don't have a Mimby, but I've being stacking my Vali2 on my Topping D30 forever without a problem.
> Heck I've even stacked my P1 (class A) without a glitch





bcowen said:


> Not a problem.  I ran mine like that for quite some time. Eventually bought one of those mini-racks, but there's enough room between the top of the Mimby and the bottom of the Vali 2 for heat to escape.


lol yeah my concern is Mimby is actually hotter than Vali 2+, just don't want the plastic feet to melt LOL.  Or like not being able to dissipate heat properly, I'm assuming they picked metal case partially so it can dissipate heat quickly.

Though Mimby being an R2R dac I think actually likes heat I think.  But good to know it's perfectly safe to stack them!


----------



## TheRealDz

My birthday is coming up, and I am preparing to snag a Vali and get into this tube rolling game. 

In the meantime, what are your preferences for tube socket risers? 

I see some old-school looking ones with bakelite and bare metal pins. 

And some fancier ones with an aluminum shell and gold pins, like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124312033874

Are they worth the $5 or so difference? 
Do they sound better?  
Do they even fit? 

I am eager to hear your thoughts.  Thank you!


----------



## InvisibleInk

TheRealDz said:


> My birthday is coming up, and I am preparing to snag a Vali and get into this tube rolling game.
> 
> In the meantime, what are your preferences for tube socket risers?
> 
> ...


Vali 2’s narrow opening needs to accommodate whichever one you do get.


----------



## bcowen

TheRealDz said:


> My birthday is coming up, and I am preparing to snag a Vali and get into this tube rolling game.
> 
> In the meantime, what are your preferences for tube socket risers?
> 
> ...


I've never tried the aluminum shell versions.  The old school bakelite ones work just fine -- they are available with gold plated pins too for only a little more than the steel pins.  Sonically irrelevant (probably), but the gold plating will help minimize oxidation.


----------



## TheRealDz (Jun 4, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I've never tried the aluminum shell versions.  The old school bakelite ones work just fine -- they are available with gold plated pins too for only a little more than the steel pins.  Sonically irrelevant (probably), but the gold plating will help minimize oxidation.


Done.  Thanks for the advice!

Now I just have to wait the 4-6 weeks backorder... 😳


----------



## perror

Hi everyone, just got a Vali 2+ and I was wondering if anyone has tried running a 6SN7 on it? I understand it has to be on top of an adapter with a maybe a socket saver, but just wondering if the extra current draw of the 6SN7 would be harmful? Thanks everyone


----------



## Hyde00

perror said:


> Hi everyone, just got a Vali 2+ and I was wondering if anyone has tried running a 6SN7 on it? I understand it has to be on top of an adapter with a maybe a socket saver, but just wondering if the extra current draw of the 6SN7 would be harmful? Thanks everyone


To my understanding people get the adapter from Deyan (our wonderful head-fi member) which already has the extra height accounted for so you don't need any extra socket saver.

As for the current draw I'm not too sure, it seems like many members have done it. But I don't know if it has any prolonged issue using it long term.

Let's see what other people have to say lol.


----------



## bcowen

perror said:


> Hi everyone, just got a Vali 2+ and I was wondering if anyone has tried running a 6SN7 on it? I understand it has to be on top of an adapter with a maybe a socket saver, but just wondering if the extra current draw of the 6SN7 would be harmful? Thanks everyone


That has been answered many, many, many times in this thread already.


----------



## perror

Thanks Hyde00, bcowen. Will give the 6SN7 a go


----------



## emorrison33

Hyde00 said:


> To my understanding people get the adapter from Deyan (our wonderful head-fi member) which already has the extra height accounted for so you don't need any extra socket saver.
> 
> As for the current draw I'm not too sure, it seems like many members have done it. But I don't know if it has any prolonged issue using it long term.
> 
> Let's see what other people have to say lol.


I ordered/received a 6SN7 adapter from Deyan a month ago.  He does beautiful work, and it was pretty cheap and shipped really fast.


----------



## Mr Trev

@bcowen 
You mentioned on a different thread using a dental pick to tighten the socket contacts on the Vali. Care to elaborate on the process?
Mines had enough tubes in and out of it that its starting to resemble an aging pornstar. Actually, the contacts do still feel tight, but it does seem to hum more now than usual. Tried cleaning tube pins to no effect. Maybe time to look at the socket…


----------



## Hyde00

Mr Trev said:


> @bcowen
> You mentioned on a different thread using a dental pick to tighten the socket contacts on the Vali. Care to elaborate on the process?
> Mines had enough tubes in and out of it that its starting to resemble an aging pornstar. Actually, the contacts do still feel tight, but it does seem to hum more now than usual. Tried cleaning tube pins to no effect. Maybe time to look at the socket…


lol I chuckled at the aging pornstar comment, though I might need to watch out too......


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> @bcowen
> You mentioned on a different thread using a dental pick to tighten the socket contacts on the Vali. Care to elaborate on the process?
> Mines had enough tubes in and out of it that its starting to resemble an aging pornstar. Actually, the contacts do still feel tight, but it does seem to hum more now than usual. Tried cleaning tube pins to no effect. Maybe time to look at the socket…


What I do is simply stick the end of the pick between the metal contact in the socket and the ceramic/micanol/plastic of the socket base and gently pry the metal contact in slightly.  Just pry gently to avoid collapsing the metal -- you can always retighten, but not un-retighten.   After you do it a few times you'll get a feel for how much pressure to apply, and octals will require a bit more pressure than novals due to the (usually) thicker metal of the contact.

Perhaps a picture is worth a thousand words. This is a split contact socket, but the process is the same regardless of the shape of the metal contact:


----------



## Mr Trev

That still works on these ridiculously small sockets?


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> That still works on these ridiculously small sockets?


I have used a dental pick (from CVS kit) to tighten socket / sleeve in the Mjolnir II.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> That still works on these ridiculously small sockets?


It can, if you can get the tip of the pick between the edge of the metal contact and the ceramic.  If you can't get the pick in there, you might try a sewing needle.  Just pushing it between the contact and ceramic will tighten the contact up.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> It can, if you can get the tip of the pick between the edge of the metal contact and the ceramic.  If you can't get the pick in there, you might try a sewing needle.  Just pushing it between the contact and ceramic will tighten the contact up.


Man, this is starting to reek of effort. Maybe I'll just replace the socket


----------



## chaosMonkey

Y'all are a *bad influence.  *I picked up a Matsushita / National PCC88 / 7DJ8 from Upscale Audio.  Plugged into my Vali 2+, driving Grado Hemps.  Sounds absurdly good. That's my highly erudite opinion... ridiculously good.


----------



## bcowen

chaosMonkey said:


> Y'all are a *bad influence.*



Thanks!!    



chaosMonkey said:


> I picked up a Matsushita / National PCC88 / 7DJ8 from Upscale Audio.  Plugged into my Vali 2+, driving Grado Hemps.  Sounds absurdly good. That's my highly erudite opinion... ridiculously good.



I have a couple of those Matsu's, but never tried them in the Vali 2 (non-plus).  Just when I thought I was done...


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Thanks!!
> 
> 
> 
> I have a couple of those Matsu's, but never tried them in the Vali 2 (non-plus).  Just when I thought I was done...


Good lord man, what are you waiting for?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Good lord man, what are you waiting for?


I'm busy watching my new headphone cable break in.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I'm busy watching my new headphone cable break in.


A watched cable never breaks…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> A watched cable never breaks…


Well that's why I'm watching it, of course. 

It could melt though if I have the quantum tunneling generator misaligned.  That's really why I'm watching it.


----------



## TheRealDz

I bought a vintage Sylvania, based on recommendations in this thread.  I am baffled at the sound quality I am getting from a $150 amp + $15 tube.  It sounds fantastic with everything I connect to it.


----------



## jonathan c

TheRealDz said:


> I bought a vintage Sylvania, based on recommendations in this thread.  I am baffled at the sound quality I am getting from a $150 amp + $15 tube.  It sounds fantastic with everything I connect to it.


Synergy can be everything!


----------



## timb5881

Hyde00 said:


> lol yeah my concern is Mimby is actually hotter than Vali 2+, just don't want the plastic feet to melt LOL.  Or like not being able to dissipate heat properly, I'm assuming they picked metal case partially so it can dissipate heat quickly.
> 
> Though Mimby being an R2R dac I think actually likes heat I think.  But good to know it's perfectly safe to stack them!


I had the feet on 2 of my Audio Alchemy DTI units that were stack melt


----------



## Hyde00

chaosMonkey said:


> Y'all are a *bad influence.  *I picked up a Matsushita / National PCC88 / 7DJ8 from Upscale Audio.  Plugged into my Vali 2+, driving Grado Hemps.  Sounds absurdly good. That's my highly erudite opinion... ridiculously good.


I found the Matsushita a little bit dark for my taste, but maybe it help tame the treble on Grado Hemp???  (haven't heard the Hemp yet so I don't know how much difference it is between the typical Grado sound)


jonathan c said:


> Synergy can be everything!


lol oh definitely agree.


timb5881 said:


> I had the feet on 2 of my Audio Alchemy DTI units that were stack melt


LOL omg that sounds scary......... haha that's why I don't like stacking hot/warm dac/amp with plastic feet.


----------



## hodgjy (Jul 19, 2021)

I received my Vali 2+ today. I ordered after business hours on Thursday and got it Monday. The secret is USPS Priority. Anyway….

I tried it out with the Canadian stock tube. It had an uneven bottom and wouldn’t sit flush in the socket. But since it sounded wooly, I quickly rolled in a Voshkod Rocket 6N1P-EV, and the results were much better. Vocals came alive and the bass was under control.

There might be some shiny new toy syndrome going on, and while I have much more expensive gear, I have to say the Vali 2+, Voshkod Rocket, and Philips Fidelio X2HR may be one of the finest combos for rock I’ve experienced.


----------



## hodgjy

I wrote a review of the Vali 2+. Overall, I'm thrilled with this little gem.

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/schiit-vali-2.24959/reviews#review-26321


----------



## hodgjy (Aug 4, 2021)

hodgjy said:


> I wrote a review of the Vali 2+. Overall, I'm thrilled with this little gem.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/schiit-vali-2.24959/reviews#review-26321


I did some more tube rolling.

The Voskhod rocket 6N1P-EV is a nice tube, but since it draws 600 mA, it makes the amp run a little hot. Also, the sound of it also leans a bit warm and rich, which nice for the Philips Fidelio X2HR, but maybe not so much for the Audeze LCD-2. Has the richest mids and most rolled off treble of this tested group.

I have some 6922 and 6DJ8 tubes from my Woo Audio WA3 days. Many of these tubes are now spendy, so it may be foolish to run them in the Vali 2+. I wouldn’t go buy them for the amp, but if you have them lying around, why not roll them in?

Sylvania JAN 6DJ8 1975. Decent tube. A little delicate overall. Good mid bloom. Less warm compared to the 6N1P. Less texture, too. Works decently well with the Fidelio X2HR and the LCD-2. Excellent bass crunch.

Philips JAN 6922 1984. Good tube. Linear. Clean sounding, but you know it’s a tube based on the slight bloom in the mids. A little more aggressive than the 6DJ8, but not overly so. Less warm than both 6N1P and 6DJ8. Good texture, about on par with the 6N1P. The most solid state sounding of the group. A great pairing for the LCD-2. Has the leanest mids and clearest treble of this group. Most linear and cleanest of the group.

Both the 6922 and 6DJ8 have lower gain than the 6N1P and cause the overall temperature of the Vali 2+ to be cooler.


----------



## hodgjy (Aug 4, 2021)

Does anyone know if pin 9 in the tube socket in the Vali 2+ is left un-wired (which is sorta common these days) or wired to ground? I'm trying to determine if tubes with the center shield vs. no center shield will have any effect during tube rolling, but it all depends if pin 9 is wired to ground.

Edit: I have a hypothesis that unshielded tubes have a higher noise floor because the Vali 2+ does ground the 9 pin.


----------



## hodgjy (Aug 4, 2021)

Ok, everyone, I rolled the heck out of my little Vali 2+ since my last few postings here. I rolled it extensively so you don't have to.

Disclaimer: I used only budget tubes that were less than $20 shipped or were already in my collection so I wasn't out any additional money. Some of those were maybe $30-40 each when I bought them years ago. It makes absolutely no sense to use holy grail tubes in an amp that costs less. I also didn't use any tubes that required an adapter.

I can conclusively say the tube you want is the one I suspected all along: Voskhod rocket 6N1P-EV. My curiosity got the best of me, so I tried all kinds of tubes: 6N1P-EV, 6BZ7, 6CG7, 6FQ7, 6DJ8, ECC88, and 6922. Take all of your other tubes and put them in drawer and save them for other amp projects.

Of all the tubes I tried, the Voskhod 6N1P-EV has the best noise floor (lowest), timbre, richness, bass, layering, texture, warmth, and "tubiness." Overall, it was the most realistic, full, and musical. It was more lively and had better transients, especially during drastic changes in volume. All other tubes were thinner, brighter, and more strident. In fact, I never met a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88 that I really liked, and this rolling exercise in the Vali 2+ just further confirmed that. The only thing one tube had better than the 6N1P-EV, the GE 6FQ7, was air and sound stage. The GE was more spacious, with a more holographic image, but also had an audible noise floor (maybe this is because the triodes aren't shielded) and less impactful bass. The noise floor alone made it no go, and the bass also further made it a second tier choice. All tubes other than the 6N1P-EV were tizzy, splashy, and/or spitty in the treble, whereas the 6N1P-EV was very detailed but realistic and pleasing. It wasn't as rolled off, either, but it wasn't fatiguing at all. I should add that no one tube really significantly transforms the detail retrieval of the Vali 2+. There are minor differences that may simply be variance in manufacturing tolerance.

I wouldn't be surprised if a 6N1P of some flavor was used during the voicing of the Vali 2+. @Jason Stoddard said in his chapter about the Vali 2+ that he considered releasing the amp with this tube but, since it has a higher heater current, he thought the added heat might scare some people not familiar with the high temperatures of tube amps. The Canadian 6BZ7 stock tube that came with my Vali 2+ really crippled the amp. Maybe I simply got a dud tube, but maybe when you get a good one, it achieve's Jason's vision. I'd love to see Schiit sell the Vali 2+ with the 6N1P as its stock tube or at least as an add-on at the time of purchase. It really does take it to the next level.


----------



## Hyde00

hodgjy said:


> Ok, everyone, I rolled the heck out of my little Vali 2+ since my last few postings here. I rolled it extensively so you don't have to.
> 
> Disclaimer: I used only budget tubes that were less than $20 shipped or were already in my collection so I wasn't out any additional money. Some of those were maybe $30-40 each when I bought them years ago. It makes absolutely no sense to use holy grail tubes in an amp that costs less. I also didn't use any tubes that required an adapter.
> 
> ...


Damn it I wish I knew about this before I sold my Vali 2+ LOL.

I've only rolled E88CC (6922) tubes and as you've mentioned most of the time they sounded thin, bright, and timbre didn't feel that realistic, and E88CC tubes more or less sounded the same for the most part.  Eventually I hit a point where I think I'm spending more money on trying tubes instead of just buying a higher level amp instead LOL.

If I could start all over again I'd just go with your suggestion!

Thank you for sacrificing your wallet for the future generation LOL.


----------



## hodgjy

Hyde00 said:


> Damn it I wish I knew about this before I sold my Vali 2+ LOL.
> 
> I've only rolled E88CC (6922) tubes and as you've mentioned most of the time they sounded thin, bright, and timbre didn't feel that realistic, and E88CC tubes more or less sounded the same for the most part.  Eventually I hit a point where I think I'm spending more money on trying tubes instead of just buying a higher level amp instead LOL.
> 
> ...


I suppose it’s possible I somehow managed to get a rare, magical 6N1P-EV. I bought it from a seeming rando on eBay in the states, who probably got it from wholesaler who got it from Soviet military surplus. Along its journey, it may have been frozen in the Siberian permafrost, sprinkled with gold dust by Stevie Nicks, and cleansed by the tears of monk to bring out the best sound possible.

Who am I to question what Schiit does as only they know what’s best for them, but the Vali 2+ is so much better than the stock tube and Schiit has the magic sauce right before their eyes for a few bucks wholesale for each tube. I think most Vali 2+ users won’t tube roll much, or even at all. If they do, they’ll probably go down the 6DJ8/6922/ECC88 rabbit hole, which are probably the worst tubes you can throw into the Vali 2+. I wish people would stop trying to find the holy grails of this family, which is why those cost hundreds of dollars, even when used and have significant hours, because better tubes in a different family cost only a few bucks. The 6DJ8/6922/ECC88 family is deeply flawed and it takes a holy grail to minimize microphonics and stridency.


----------



## Hyde00

hodgjy said:


> I suppose it’s possible I somehow managed to get a rare, magical 6N1P-EV. I bought it from a seeming rando on eBay in the states, who probably got it from wholesaler who got it from Soviet military surplus. Along its journey, it may have been frozen in the Siberian permafrost, sprinkled with gold dust by Stevie Nicks, and cleansed by the tears of monk to bring out the best sound possible.
> 
> Who am I to question what Schiit does as only they know what’s best for them, but the Vali 2+ is so much better than the stock tube and Schiit has the magic sauce right before their eyes for a few bucks wholesale for each tube. I think most Vali 2+ users won’t tube roll much, or even at all. If they do, they’ll probably go down the 6DJ8/6922/ECC88 rabbit hole, which are probably the worst tubes you can throw into the Vali 2+. I wish people would stop trying to find the holy grails of this family, which is why those cost hundreds of dollars, even when used and have significant hours, because better tubes in a different family cost only a few bucks. The 6DJ8/6922/ECC88 family is deeply flawed and it takes a holy grail to minimize microphonics and stridency.


LOL I wonder if that's why I gave up.  I was stuck on the 6DJ8/6922/ECC88 hole, and didn't want to spend more money to try 6SN7 and potentially be disappointed.  Though I had good experience with 12AT7 tubes from borrowed Project Ember but it sounds more complicated on Vali 2+.

In the end I figure it was easier to stick with solid state, also partially due to my usage.  I'll leave my computer on all day and only need to use headphone for like 5-10 min here and there.  Usually I do the longer listening at night time but even so it's not consistent.  So for my "spontaneous" usage I think solid state makes more sense.

Again not to discourage anyone here, as I mentioned my usage style lean more towards convenience rather than pure sound quality lol.


----------



## bcowen

hodgjy said:


> I suppose it’s possible I somehow managed to get a rare, magical 6N1P-EV. I bought it from a seeming rando on eBay in the states, who probably got it from wholesaler who got it from Soviet military surplus. Along its journey, it may have been frozen in the Siberian permafrost, sprinkled with gold dust by Stevie Nicks, and cleansed by the tears of monk to bring out the best sound possible.
> 
> Who am I to question what Schiit does as only they know what’s best for them, but the Vali 2+ is so much better than the stock tube and Schiit has the magic sauce right before their eyes for a few bucks wholesale for each tube. I think most Vali 2+ users won’t tube roll much, or even at all. If they do, they’ll probably go down the 6DJ8/6922/ECC88 rabbit hole, which are probably the worst tubes you can throw into the Vali 2+. I wish people would stop trying to find the holy grails of this family, which is why those cost hundreds of dollars, even when used and have significant hours, because better tubes in a different family cost only a few bucks. The 6DJ8/6922/ECC88 family is deeply flawed and it takes a holy grail to minimize microphonics and stridency.


Totally agree.  My Vali 2 (non- + ) came with the Canadian 6BZ7 that was actually pretty nasty sounding. Had an upper midrange/lower treble glare, artificial sounding bass, and a teeny, narrow soundstage.  Rolled quite a few (dozen) different tubes, and my two favorites to date are a Sylvania 7N7 (Frankentube) and recently the Brimar Footscray CV4033.  The Brimar's are a bit silly as they're $100+ a pop (in a $150 amp LOL), but the 7N7's (with this particular construction) can still be found for less than $25 on occasion.  Adapter for the 7N7 by fellow HeadFi-er @Deyan , who made it special to perfectly fit the Vali 2's top cover spacing.

Sylvania 7N7 (identical to a 6SN7 electrically, just a different base):





Brimar CV4033 (12AT7):


----------



## hodgjy

bcowen said:


> Totally agree.  My Vali 2 (non- + ) came with the Canadian 6BZ7 that was actually pretty nasty sounding. Had an upper midrange/lower treble glare, artificial sounding bass, and a teeny, narrow soundstage.  Rolled quite a few (dozen) different tubes, and my two favorites to date are a Sylvania 7N7 (Frankentube) and recently the Brimar Footscray CV4033.  The Brimar's are a bit silly as they're $100+ a pop (in a $150 amp LOL), but the 7N7's (with this particular construction) can still be found for less than $25 on occasion.  Adapter for the 7N7 by fellow HeadFi-er @Deyan , who made it special to perfectly fit the Vali 2's top cover spacing.
> 
> Sylvania 7N7 (identical to a 6SN7 electrically, just a different base):
> 
> ...


I'm still trying to live the adapter-less lifestyle, but maybe one day I'll wake up and decide to let it rip. The 6CG7 is electrically identical to the 6SN7 but in a smaller bottle. I didn't mind the 6CG7 and thought they had a nice soundstage, but the bass a bit light and they had a perceivable noise floor.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Totally agree.  My Vali 2 (non- + ) came with the Canadian 6BZ7 that was actually pretty nasty sounding. Had an upper midrange/lower treble glare, artificial sounding bass, and a teeny, narrow soundstage.  Rolled quite a few (dozen) different tubes, and my two favorites to date are a Sylvania 7N7 (Frankentube) and recently the Brimar Footscray CV4033.  The Brimar's are a bit silly as they're $100+ a pop (in a $150 amp LOL), but the 7N7's (with this particular construction) can still be found for less than $25 on occasion.  Adapter for the 7N7 by fellow HeadFi-er @Deyan , who made it special to perfectly fit the Vali 2's top cover spacing.
> 
> Sylvania 7N7 (identical to a 6SN7 electrically, just a different base):
> 
> ...


Hey I got one like the top pic. I'll second that it sounds good.
12AT7? Jeezumcripes, don't the gain on that thing blow your eardrums out? At least it's not an AX7…


hodgjy said:


> I'm still trying to live the adapter-less lifestyle, but maybe one day I'll wake up and decide to let it rip. The 6CG7 is electrically identical to the 6SN7 but in a smaller bottle. I didn't mind the 6CG7 and thought they had a nice soundstage, but the bass a bit light and they had a perceivable noise floor.


That'd be the one drawback I've found using adaptered tubes, noise. I think the only one I've tried that wasn't noisy was a Philips ECC40 - now thems a good family of tubes too.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Hey I got one like the top pic. I'll second that it sounds good.
> 12AT7? Jeezumcripes, don't the gain on that thing blow your eardrums out? At least it's not an AX7…


I'm deaf, so no.    

Seriously, I bought it to try in my Incubus OTL amp.  Gain was too much for it....anything above medium volume started distorting pretty badly.  So I tried it in the Vali, and it works very well.  In fact, with a 6SN7/7N7 tube the volume knob is usually between 10:00 and 11:00 for most listening, and with the 12AT7 it's between 9:00 and 10:00, so still in a good operating area of the pot. The 7N7 had been my favorite, but this Brimar is pretty special.  The Brimar 6BQ7A is also extremely nice, and is pin compatible so no adapter needed.  I'm not a Brimar fanboy in the least, but these two tubes are quite nice in the Vali 2.


----------



## Mr Trev

Haven't found one of those 6bq7s at a reasonable price yet - well, haven't really looked much either.
Is that Brimar one of those flying lead ones that seem to be getting much hype as of late?

I did find a pair of 12BH7 you'll probably be interested in (IIRC 12BH7 will do drop in duty for 12au7)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254434537535 
You can thank me later


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Haven't found one of those 6bq7s at a reasonable price yet - well, haven't really looked much either.
> Is that Brimar one of those flying lead ones that seem to be getting much hype as of late?
> 
> I did find a pair of 12BH7 you'll probably be interested in (IIRC 12BH7 will do drop in duty for 12au7)
> ...


Too bad on the Brimar 6BQ7A's.  An Ebay seller had a pretty big stash of them a while back and was selling them for around $35 a pair IIRC.  I bought a set and liked it enough in the Vali to get some backups.  The 6BQ7A is a straight-up 9 pin tube.  The CV4033 is a flying lead tube that Pulse (Tubemonger) puts a regular 9-pin base on.  Nice quality work on their part.  

https://pulsetubestore.com/products...play-ready-to-use?_pos=3&_sid=f25c4aa39&_ss=r

And thanks for the tip on the Fivres!   Since they had 2 pairs available I bought both....you know, can't have too many backups.   Now I just need to figure out how to get 12.6v on the filaments from my 6.3v amp.....


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Too bad on the Brimar 6BQ7A's.  An Ebay seller had a pretty big stash of them a while back and was selling them for around $35 a pair IIRC.  I bought a set and liked it enough in the Vali to get some backups.  The 6BQ7A is a straight-up 9 pin tube.  The CV4033 is a flying lead tube that Pulse (Tubemonger) puts a regular 9-pin base on.  Nice quality work on their part.
> 
> https://pulsetubestore.com/products...play-ready-to-use?_pos=3&_sid=f25c4aa39&_ss=r
> 
> And thanks for the tip on the Fivres!   Since they had 2 pairs available I bought both....you know, can't have too many backups.   Now I just need to figure out how to get 12.6v on the filaments from my 6.3v amp.....


Just buy another Vali - a perfect excuse to get the + model. Then you can just wire the heater pins on the 2 amps in series.
Again you can thank me later…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Just buy another Vali - a perfect excuse to get the + model. Then you can just wire the heater pins on the 2 amps in series.
> Again you can thank me later…


Yeah...that's it.  Two amps, and just use one triode in each tube.  Why didn't I think of that?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Yeah...that's it.  Two amps, and just use one triode in each tube.  Why didn't I think of that?


Two amps total…two triodes total…two headphones total?…it’s time for…


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Yeah...that's it.  Two amps, and just use one triode in each tube.  Why didn't I think of that?


I thought about doing that ages ago with my Little Bears - treat 'em as monoblocks.

Except I didn't actually think of doing it until after I modded one. And I was way too lazy to mod the other to match


----------



## hodgjy

Other tidbit and observations during my tube rolling journey:

1) The Vali 2+ takes about 2 hours to warm up and sound its best. I can sound like arse at first with not much bass and some sibilance, especially when using the 6CG7 tubes.

2) Using tubes with a 600 mA heater draw make the amp run warmer, as expected, compared to tubes with 300-345 mA draw. Also, tubes with the higher heater current make the amp pop at a lower volume during turn-off compared to the lower draw. I think this probably has to do with capacitor discharge.

3) Tubes without the shield on the 9 pin tend to be noisier and can have audible noise when no music is playing. However, the 6FQ7 tends to be warmer sounding than the shielded 6CG7.

4) The 6CG7 tubes have the best imaging, sound stage, and dimensionality.

5) I'm not sure how important it is to have balanced triodes. I asked Schiit, and they said important, but I haven't detected any channel imbalance on any tube I tried. Some were tested and were within 10%, but others were not and I have no idea how close they were.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 11, 2021)

10% between triodes is typically considered a reasonably well balanced tube.  I believe all Schiit tube amp auto-bias to negate the affects of an unbalanced tube, however I do not know at what % variation auto-bias cannot compensate for an imbalance.


----------



## Neweymatt

Welp, I've gone and ordered myself a Vali2+ this morning, now I've got 4-6 weeks to obsess over what tubes to start rolling with.



hodgjy said:


> I can conclusively say the tube you want is the one I suspected all along: Voskhod rocket 6N1P-EV. My curiosity got the best of me, so I tried all kinds of tubes: 6N1P-EV, 6BZ7, 6CG7, 6FQ7, 6DJ8, ECC88, and 6922. Take all of your other tubes and put them in drawer and save them for other amp projects.



OK, so I should probably go and order a few of these, but I can't imagine the tube rabbit-hole is that shallow.

What else should be on my shortlist?


----------



## hodgjy

Neweymatt said:


> Welp, I've gone and ordered myself a Vali2+ this morning, now I've got 4-6 weeks to obsess over what tubes to start rolling with.
> 
> OK, so I should probably go and order a few of these, but I can't imagine the tube rabbit-hole is that shallow.
> 
> What else should be on my shortlist?


Start with the stock tube to get a baseline feel for the amp. Then the two tubes you should try first, which are also pretty cheap, are the Voskhod rocket 6N1P-EV and a 1960s GE 6CG7 with center shield. If you get adventurous and don't mind running the risk of a slightly noisier tube (it's like rolling the dice), go for a 1970s or 1980s GE 6FQ7 without center shield and "hot wire" series filament heater wire. This is also pretty cheap.

GE tubes get a very unfair bad rep around a lot of tube parts, but that's good for true rollers because it keeps the costs down. GE did have some duds, but every GE tube I've used in my all my amps have been pretty neutral with good air and detail. Back in the day, they were viewed as premium tubes before collectors starting getting interested in exotic Euro tubes. It's a shame GEs are no longer remembered as premium.

You'll find something you like in that bunch. If not, you have to go further up the cost ladder, which may be kinda foolish in such a cheap amp. Let me know how you like any (or don't) any of those tubes and then we can discuss more expensive options. But, as I said, this could be foolish because, even though tube rolling does have an effect on the sound, it's not a drastic, night and day difference between tubes like you may find in other amps. You can never fully escape the Vali 2+ DNA, which is neutral and a bit forward, especially in the treble region where you get snare drums and high hats. Tubes can tame that a little or make it even more aggressive to your liking, but you're never gonna get a warm and gooey OTL sound like a Woo Audio WA3, for example.


----------



## jonathan c

hodgjy said:


> Start with the stock tube to get a baseline feel for the amp. Then the two tubes you should try first, which are also pretty cheap, are the Voskhod rocket 6N1P-EV and a 1960s GE 6CG7 with center shield. If you get adventurous and don't mind running the risk of a slightly noisier tube (it's like rolling the dice), go for a 1970s or 1980s GE 6FQ7 without center shield and "hot wire" series filament heater wire. This is also pretty cheap.
> 
> GE tubes get a very unfair bad rep around a lot of tube parts, but that's good for true rollers because it keeps the costs down. GE did have some duds, but every GE tube I've used in my all my amps have been pretty neutral with good air and detail. Back in the day, they were viewed as premium tubes before collectors starting getting interested in exotic Euro tubes. It's a shame GEs are no longer remembered as premium.
> 
> You'll find something you like in that bunch. If not, you have to go further up the cost ladder, which may be kinda foolish in such a cheap amp. Let me know how you like any (or don't) any of those tubes and then we can discuss more expensive options. But, as I said, this could be foolish because, even though tube rolling does have an effect on the sound, it's not a drastic, night and day difference between tubes like you may find in other amps. You can never fully escape the Vali 2+ DNA, which is neutral and a bit forward, especially in the treble region where you get snare drums and high hats. Tubes can tame that a little or make it even more aggressive to your liking, but you're never gonna get a warm and gooey OTL sound like a Woo Audio WA3, for example.


Hey hey hey, a Woo Audio WA3 with a GEC 6080 (CV5008) and Brimar CV455 (KB/FB, Footscray: 1956) is certainly not “warm & gooey”….keep the treacle in the kitchen 😜


----------



## hodgjy

jonathan c said:


> Hey hey hey, a Woo Audio WA3 with a GEC 6080 (CV5008) and Brimar CV455 (KB/FB, Footscray: 1956) is certainly not “warm & gooey”….keep the treacle in the kitchen 😜


LOL, fair enough! With my stock International Servicemaster (Yugoslavia, but you never really know who actually made them and where) 6922 and a cheapo RCA 6AS7G Coke bottle, it's like a warm bubble bath.


----------



## jonathan c

Neweymatt said:


> Welp, I've gone and ordered myself a Vali2+ this morning, now I've got 4-6 weeks to obsess over what tubes to start rolling with.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, so I should probably go and order a few of these, but I can't imagine the tube rabbit-hole is that shallow.


Each tube rabbit-hole could be shallow or deep; the problem for us “tubers” is that there are a ‘gazillion’ of such rabbit-holes, all interconnected by tunnels. Once in one, where you surface, if you surface, is anyone’s guess…


----------



## jonathan c

hodgjy said:


> LOL, fair enough! With my stock International Servicemaster (Yugoslavia, but you never really know who actually made them and where) 6922 and a cheapo RCA 6AS7G Coke bottle, it's like a warm bubble bath.


I have noticed the “warm & gooey” sound when RCA 6AS7Gs or RCA 5U4Gs (rectifiers) are involved (in Woo WA3 and Woo WA6).


----------



## hodgjy

jonathan c said:


> Each tube rabbit-hole could be shallow or deep; the problem for us “tubers” is that there are a ‘gazillion’ of such rabbit-holes, all interconnected by tunnels. Once in one, where you surface, if you surface, is anyone’s guess…


You have two choices: the red or blue pill.


----------



## jonathan c

hodgjy said:


> You have two choices: the red or blue pill.


In the ‘tube arena’, the choice is GE or everything else 😜…


----------



## hodgjy

jonathan c said:


> In the ‘tube arena’, the choice is GE or everything else 😜…


Well, I've already stated publicly my treasonous affinity for GE tubes. For me, the traitors are Sylvania. I've not heard many of theirs like I like. Their 7236 is ok, albeit a little dry, whereas the Tung-Sol 7236 is much richer.


----------



## jonathan c

hodgjy said:


> Well, I've already stated publicly my treasonous affinity for GE tubes. For me, the traitors are Sylvania. I've not heard many of theirs like I like. Their 7236 is ok, albeit a little dry, whereas the Tung-Sol 7236 is much richer.


Actually, I own four of the GE 5998A power tubes. They are very good (rotate their use in Woo WA3). As for Sylvania, I have no experience with their 6080 types but I do like their 7308s and their triple mica, square getter 12AT7…(rotation in Schiit Valhalla II).


----------



## hodgjy

jonathan c said:


> Actually, I own four of the GE 5998A power tubes. They are very good (rotate their use in Woo WA3). As for Sylvania, I have no experience with their 6080 types but I do like their 7308s and their triple mica, square getter 12AT7…(rotation in Schiit Valhalla II).


Ah, yes, the GE 5998A is a nice little tube. I think I paid like $5 for mine about 10 years ago.


----------



## hodgjy

jonathan c said:


> Actually, I own four of the GE 5998A power tubes. They are very good (rotate their use in Woo WA3). As for Sylvania, I have no experience with their 6080 types but I do like their 7308s and their triple mica, square getter 12AT7…(rotation in Schiit Valhalla II).


This is also a fairly lovely tube.


----------



## Neweymatt

hodgjy said:


> Start with the stock tube to get a baseline feel for the amp. Then the two tubes you should try first, which are also pretty cheap, are the Voskhod rocket 6N1P-EV and a 1960s GE 6CG7 with center shield. If you get adventurous and don't mind running the risk of a slightly noisier tube (it's like rolling the dice), go for a 1970s or 1980s GE 6FQ7 without center shield and "hot wire" series filament heater wire. This is also pretty cheap.
> 
> GE tubes get a very unfair bad rep around a lot of tube parts, but that's good for true rollers because it keeps the costs down. GE did have some duds, but every GE tube I've used in my all my amps have been pretty neutral with good air and detail. Back in the day, they were viewed as premium tubes before collectors starting getting interested in exotic Euro tubes. It's a shame GEs are no longer remembered as premium.
> 
> You'll find something you like in that bunch. If not, you have to go further up the cost ladder, which may be kinda foolish in such a cheap amp. Let me know how you like any (or don't) any of those tubes and then we can discuss more expensive options. But, as I said, this could be foolish because, even though tube rolling does have an effect on the sound, it's not a drastic, night and day difference between tubes like you may find in other amps. You can never fully escape the Vali 2+ DNA, which is neutral and a bit forward, especially in the treble region where you get snare drums and high hats. Tubes can tame that a little or make it even more aggressive to your liking, but you're never gonna get a warm and gooey OTL sound like a Woo Audio WA3, for example.


As it turns out, Schiit have gone and FedEx'ed my Vali2+ already, definitely not the 4-6 weeks as stated on their website, nor the disclaimer that I accepted when ordered.  Well done Schiit!!  

So now I need to bring forward my tube order.  I've learned enough so far to avoid pretty much anything on eBay, but it seems there's heaps of tube vendors around, who's good to deal with?


----------



## hodgjy

Neweymatt said:


> As it turns out, Schiit have gone and FedEx'ed my Vali2+ already, definitely not the 4-6 weeks as stated on their website, nor the disclaimer that I accepted when ordered.  Well done Schiit!!
> 
> So now I need to bring forward my tube order.  I've learned enough so far to avoid pretty much anything on eBay, but it seems there's heaps of tube vendors around, who's good to deal with?


Congrats on the shipping notification.

I buy my tubes on eBay all the time. Some come bad, most come good. Good sellers refund me when the tubes are bad. Bad sellers don’t refund me and I blacklist them.


----------



## bcowen

Neweymatt said:


> As it turns out, Schiit have gone and FedEx'ed my Vali2+ already, definitely not the 4-6 weeks as stated on their website, nor the disclaimer that I accepted when ordered.  Well done Schiit!!
> 
> So now I need to bring forward my tube order.  I've learned enough so far to avoid pretty much anything on eBay, but it seems there's heaps of tube vendors around, who's good to deal with?


There are some good sellers on Ebay.  Trick is finding the good ones.  As far as dealers, below are a few that I've purchased from repeatedly with consistently good results.  Others out there too, these are just the ones that come to mind quickly.  Upscale will be the most expensive by a good margin, but they probably do a more thorough job of screening and testing than most.  If you want to get into some of the more exotic European types, Langrex and Billington are solid vendors. Both ship to the US for a reasonable price, and transit time isn't bad (usually less than 2 weeks). 

USA:
https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/vacuum-tubes
https://tubeworldexpress.com/
https://vivatubes.com/

Europe:
https://www.langrex.co.uk/
https://web211.secure-secure.co.uk/tube-and-valve-electronics.co.uk/default2.asp


----------



## Neweymatt

bcowen said:


> There are some good sellers on Ebay.  Trick is finding the good ones.  As far as dealers, below are a few that I've purchased from repeatedly with consistently good results.  Others out there too, these are just the ones that come to mind quickly.  Upscale will be the most expensive by a good margin, but they probably do a more thorough job of screening and testing than most.  If you want to get into some of the more exotic European types, Langrex and Billington are solid vendors. Both ship to the US for a reasonable price, and transit time isn't bad (usually less than 2 weeks).
> 
> USA:
> https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/vacuum-tubes
> ...


I actually need shipping to Aus, so I'm looking to get a few things in the one order for now to save a bit on shipping.

This is a great help, thanks!!


----------



## hodgjy

bcowen said:


> There are some good sellers on Ebay.  Trick is finding the good ones.  As far as dealers, below are a few that I've purchased from repeatedly with consistently good results.  Others out there too, these are just the ones that come to mind quickly.  Upscale will be the most expensive by a good margin, but they probably do a more thorough job of screening and testing than most.  If you want to get into some of the more exotic European types, Langrex and Billington are solid vendors. Both ship to the US for a reasonable price, and transit time isn't bad (usually less than 2 weeks).
> 
> USA:
> https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/vacuum-tubes
> ...


Those are great sellers, agreed.

I'm replying to this post, but it's really meant for @Neweymatt 

The thing about the tubes used in the Vali 2+, many of the good ones are dirt cheap on eBay. You can get them shipped for about $10-17 each. When you get one in the mail, put it in the amp and give it a listen. If it's a good tube, keep it. If it's trash, you can either throw it in the trash or try to get your money back. There's no need to pay $25-40 from a web store for the same tube you can get for $10 on eBay because you're not guaranteed it's a better tube. For the vast majority of these cheaper tubes that fit in the Vali 2+, the days of having cases of surplus NOS tubes are long gone, and the tubes you can buy for it are most often pulls from old gear or the single NOS tube found in some guy's basement. If a web store tells you "various brands" and can't guarantee you a specific brand upon order, that means they don't have a case, they are reselling random pulls. Nothing wrong with that, but that's what it is.

There's also no urgent need to buy premium tubes that are $45 or more (before shipping). Are they good tubes? Yes. Are they worth the price? Also yes, depending on the amp. But it makes little sense to use tubes that expensive in the Vali 2+ because they won't be "that" much better than a $10 counterpart.  By the time you're dropping in $45 tubes, you don't need better tubes, you need a better amp, and then roll in the good tubes.


----------



## Neweymatt

hodgjy said:


> Those are great sellers, agreed.
> 
> I'm replying to this post, but it's really meant for @Neweymatt
> 
> ...


Cool thanks, will give eBay a go once I've got the amp in house.


----------



## hodgjy

Neweymatt said:


> Cool thanks, will give eBay a go once I've got the amp in house.


Find sellers with the best ratings, claim to test their tubes, and reveal the results. You'll probably get decent tubes that way. I've actually received more tubes that had problems from web stores than I have from eBay sellers. The difference is the web stores have better return policies. That's where the price difference arises.


----------



## drhonk

Neweymatt said:


> I actually need shipping to Aus, so I'm looking to get a few things in the one order for now to save a bit on shipping.


I got mine from these two sites and I think both are VIC-based. 

https://tubeaudio.com.au/
https://amptubes.com.au/


----------



## Neweymatt

Really appreciate all the recs for online sellers!  Best I've found for the Voskohd rockets is this russian site:
https://tubes-store.com
Not a huge overall selection, but good prices, and cheap shipping.  

Other than that, it looks like Billington have the best selection with not-too-crazy shipping.

Is there a list anywhere of all the different types of tubes that are defo compatible with Vali2+ ootb?  I'm getting a bit of vertigo trying to match up the 5-6 mentioned specifically on Schiit web site, are there any others beyond 6DJ8, 6922, ECC88, 2492, 6N1P, 6CG7?


tia.


----------



## bcowen

Neweymatt said:


> Really appreciate all the recs for online sellers!  Best I've found for the Voskohd rockets is this russian site:
> https://tubes-store.com
> Not a huge overall selection, but good prices, and cheap shipping.
> 
> ...


Without adapters?  Just a few that quickly come to mind:

E88CC (the E88CC is the Euro designation for a 6922, where the ECC88 is a 6DJ8 equivalent)
6BQ7A
6BZ7
7308
E188CC

Below is a very handy site for quick reference. There is also a downloadable program there (TDSL) that is very quick and gives you basic data about a tube.  The data sheet links in the downloadable program are rather dated as many of the links don't work any longer, but the pinout and electrical parameters are still correct:

http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/tubesearch.php





From this you can see that the pinout between a 6922 and 6BQ7A are identical:  pins 1 and 6 are the anodes (plates), pins 2 and 7 are the grids, pins 3 and 8 are the cathodes, pins 4 and 5 are the heaters (filaments), and pin 9 is not connected.  But this is just the first step -- just because a tube has the same pinout doesn't mean it's compatible.  You'll also need to look at heater current and in some cases the plate current.  The amp sets the voltage (6.3v), but the tube will determine the current draw (in milliamps) and you don't want to use a tube that draws current in excess of what the amp can handle, or you risk frying the amp.  For example, the 6922 draws 300 milliamps of current *(lh)* on the heaters.  If you put a tube in there that draws (for example) 900 milliamps, you might kill the Vali.  Note that I and many others have used tubes that draw 600 milliamps of heater current (6CG7, 6SN7, etc) with no issues.  So I think it's pretty safe to say that up to 600 milliamps of heater current is fine for the Vali 2, but anything higher than that is a "proceed at your own risk" scenario.


----------



## hodgjy

Ok, I have tube voodoo for you, and it can only be described as tube voodoo.

If I'm using the 6N1P-EV and a pair of high sensitivity headphones, I can hear the volume pot scratch when I turn it. This is on low gain. If I switch to high gain, the scratch goes away. But, when there is no music playing, I can hear a light hum through the headphones on high gain. I replicated both phenomena on different 6N1P-EV tubes with different dates. It seems to be some voodoo byproduct of that particular tube design.

If I put in any of my American tubes, the pot scratch goes away. Also, on high gain when no music is playing, there's no hum but instead the traditional hiss sound.

Not sure why one tube design would cause pot scratch, but whatever.

In general, I also noticed that the amp becomes much more microphonic when on high gain for all tubes used. It tends to disappear on low gain.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Aug 28, 2021)

bcowen said:


> There are some good sellers on Ebay.  Trick is finding the good ones.  As far as dealers, below are a few that I've purchased from repeatedly with consistently good results.  Others out there too, these are just the ones that come to mind quickly.  Upscale will be the most expensive by a good margin, but they probably do a more thorough job of screening and testing than most.  If you want to get into some of the more exotic European types, Langrex and Billington are solid vendors. Both ship to the US for a reasonable price, and transit time isn't bad (usually less than 2 weeks).
> 
> USA:
> https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/vacuum-tubes
> ...


UK is not Europe. That's some funny islands neither here nor there. That is why the shipping times to the US are shorter - they are halfway already


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> UK is not Europe. That's some funny islands neither here nor there. That is why the shipping times to the US are shorter - they are halfway already


Nitpicker.  Europe-ish then.   

(good to see you ODD!)


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Nitpicker.  Europe-ish then.
> 
> (good to see you ODD!)


Brexit?


----------



## Weskus

Hi guys new to the forum. I did a search but cant really find an answer I am looking for. I got a Vali 2 last year and man what an experience it has been. It is my first piece of "audiophile" equipment and I really am enjoying it. After reading a bit on the forum I bought an EH 6922 and an EH 6CG7 tube. The EH6922 is giving me a crackling sound (almost like static) so currently stuck with the 6CG7. I am keen to try some other tubes and would really appreciate some recommendations. I mostly listed to EDM music with emphasis on the mids and lower end. I am currenlty looking to get a Genalex Golden Lion 6922 since I never got to experience the 6922 properly. Any other tube I should consider ? TIA


----------



## Bassic Needs

Weskus said:


> Hi guys new to the forum. I did a search but cant really find an answer I am looking for. I got a Vali 2 last year and man what an experience it has been. It is my first piece of "audiophile" equipment and I really am enjoying it. After reading a bit on the forum I bought an EH 6922 and an EH 6CG7 tube. The EH6922 is giving me a crackling sound (almost like static) so currently stuck with the 6CG7. I am keen to try some other tubes and would really appreciate some recommendations. I mostly listed to EDM music with emphasis on the mids and lower end. I am currenlty looking to get a Genalex Golden Lion 6922 since I never got to experience the 6922 properly. Any other tube I should consider ? TIA


My daily driver in the Vali 2 is the Gold Lion 6922. On Friday I got the EH 6CG7 for a little variety, based on various positive reviews. Compared to the Gold Lion, the EH bass sounds loose and flabby, and detail is smeared. I'll give it time to burn in and settle before passing final judgement, but the Gold Lion's  2x price seems easily justified.


----------



## jonathan c

Weskus said:


> Hi guys new to the forum. I did a search but cant really find an answer I am looking for. I got a Vali 2 last year and man what an experience it has been. It is my first piece of "audiophile" equipment and I really am enjoying it. After reading a bit on the forum I bought an EH 6922 and an EH 6CG7 tube. The EH6922 is giving me a crackling sound (almost like static) so currently stuck with the 6CG7. I am keen to try some other tubes and would really appreciate some recommendations. I mostly listed to EDM music with emphasis on the mids and lower end. I am currenlty looking to get a Genalex Golden Lion 6922 since I never got to experience the 6922 properly. Any other tube I should consider ? TIA


~ Hello and enjoy Vali II ! First off, what is your spending limit per tube?
~ With that aside, some very good / excellent 6922 type tubes are: Amperex PQ 6922, Amperex PQ 7308, Brimar CV 2492, Philips BEL 6922. These are of the “new old stock” NOS variety. The Genalex GLs are of the “new production” variety. They are very good.
~ Be mindful that if you go the NOS route for two tubes (one active / one backup) for Vali II, you may spend more than what you spent on the Vali II.


----------



## Weskus

Thank for the reply guys. 


Bassic Needs said:


> My daily driver in the Vali 2 is the Gold Lion 6922. On Friday I got the EH 6CG7 for a little variety, based on various positive reviews. Compared to the Gold Lion, the EH bass sounds loose and flabby, and detail is smeared. I'll give it time to burn in and settle before passing final judgement, but the Gold Lion's  2x price seems easily justified.


The 6CG7 is still better than stock and pretty much all I have to compare it too. So very keen to try out the Gold ion. 



jonathan c said:


> ~ Hello and enjoy Vali II ! First off, what is your spending limit per tube?
> ~ With that aside, some very good / excellent 6922 type tubes are: Amperex PQ 6922, Amperex PQ 7308, Brimar CV 2492, Philips BEL 6922. These are of the “new old stock” NOS variety. The Genalex GLs are of the “new production” variety. They are very good.
> ~ Be mindful that if you go the NOS route for two tubes (one active / one backup) for Vali II, you may spend more than what you spent on the Vali II.


Budget is not too high since I am just getting into higher grade audio gear. I will definitely check those that you've listed. Does the manufacturing method "old vs new" make a huge difference in the sound produced ? I might then grab a golden lion. 

on an unrelated topic when selecting tube on tubedepot there are a couple of options - Balanced triads, high gain, Low microphonics; what do these mean ? I found an answer for balanced triads but not the others. I would assume microphonics is noise generated in the tube itself ?


----------



## jonathan c

Weskus said:


> Thank for the reply guys.
> 
> The 6CG7 is still better than stock and pretty much all I have to compare it too. So very keen to try out the Gold ion.
> 
> ...


~ In general, NOS tubes sound fuller, more dimensional than “new production” tubes and prices reflect this.
~ When a tube is microphonic, it is picking up vibration from the tube glass, the headphone amplifier body and is amplifying that vibration in the sound. Some website quote low microphonics and charge higher prices.


----------



## Weskus

jonathan c said:


> ~ In general, NOS tubes sound fuller, more dimensional than “new production” tubes and prices reflect this.
> ~ When a tube is microphonic, it is picking up vibration from the tube glass, the headphone amplifier body and is amplifying that vibration in the sound. Some website quote low microphonics and charge higher prices.


Oh ok. Thanks so much for the info, I really appreciate it! I will start off with the Golden lion for now and work my way up


----------



## hodgjy

Weskus said:


> Oh ok. Thanks so much for the info, I really appreciate it! I will start off with the Golden lion for now and work my way up


Unless you like bright, I don't recommend the Lion paired with the Vali 2+. The Vali 2+ leans to the bright and aggressive side, and the Lion is a bright tube. Plus, it's expensive. Better starter tubes are the JJ E88CC, GE 6CG7, and the Voskhod rocket 6N1P-EV. These are all better and cheaper.


----------



## Bassic Needs

hodgjy said:


> Unless you like bright, I don't recommend the Lion paired with the Vali 2+. The Vali 2+ leans to the bright and aggressive side, and the Lion is a bright tube. Plus, it's expensive. Better starter tubes are the JJ E88CC, GE 6CG7, and the Voskhod rocket 6N1P-EV. These are all better and cheaper.


The 'better' part is pretty subjective. I am looking forward to @Weskus sharing what he thinks.


----------



## hodgjy

Bassic Needs said:


> The 'better' part is pretty subjective. I am looking forward to @Weskus sharing what he thinks.


Translation: you’re looking for another opinion to affirm your current tube of choice without actually rolling any of the other suggested tubes in this thread.


----------



## bcowen

hodgjy said:


> Translation: you’re looking for another opinion to affirm your current tube of choice without actually rolling any of the other suggested tubes in this thread.


Maybe.  But you're also coming across that the tubes you've suggested are 'better' than anything else as an absolute.  'Better' is wholly subjective, wholly dependent on personal preferences, and wholly dependent on ancillary equipment, including the headphones in play.  What's 'better' for you may not be for me, and vice versa.  If we're sharing _opinions_ (which in reality is all that can happen here), these are mine:

Voskhod Rocket-logo 6N1P-EV?  Nice sounding tube, but I much prefer the triple-mica Foton 6N1P. 
GE 6CG7?  Not for me. A '60's vintage Amperex would be my first choice, followed by Tung Sol and then RCA. Perhaps if the GE was just labeled GE and actually made by RCA it'd be OK.
JJ E88CC?  Again, not for me. I'd much rather have practically any Russian 6N23P...for less money.


----------



## hodgjy

bcowen said:


> Maybe.  But you're also coming across that the tubes you've suggested are 'better' than anything else as an absolute.  'Better' is wholly subjective, wholly dependent on personal preferences, and wholly dependent on ancillary equipment, including the headphones in play.  What's 'better' for you may not be for me, and vice versa.  If we're sharing _opinions_ (which in reality is all that can happen here), these are mine:
> 
> Voskhod Rocket-logo 6N1P-EV?  Nice sounding tube, but I much prefer the triple-mica Foton 6N1P.
> GE 6CG7?  Not for me. A '60's vintage Amperex would be my first choice, followed by Tung Sol and then RCA. Perhaps if the GE was just labeled GE and actually made by RCA it'd be OK.
> JJ E88CC?  Again, not for me. I'd much rather have practically any Russian 6N23P...for less money.


Tube rolling threads are subjective. How do you objectively analyze tubes? An oscilloscope? We go by what we hear and how it matches our preferences. For me, the three tubes I mentioned are better than another, especially since they are dirt cheap. I didn’t make any claims beyond that. It makes no sense to roll in a tube that costs as much as the amp.

I’ve rolled everything through the Vali 2+, including the kitchen sink, so of course I have lots of opinions.

If people want to come after me in a subjective thread and question my use of the word better or best, I’ve got better things to do than share my experiences here. I have a mountain of tubes, spare tubes, and plenty of time to burn. You all can spare me the indignity while I keep to myself.


----------



## hodgjy

A tube rolling thread: a play three acts:

Act 1) Tell me what you think of various tubes in your amp.

Act 2) You can’t list opinions because they’re too subjective.

Act 3) You’re wrong, here’s why, followed by my opinions.


----------



## Bassic Needs

hodgjy said:


> Translation: you’re looking for another opinion to affirm your current tube of choice without actually rolling any of the other suggested tubes in this thread.


Wrong. You made an assertion. I pointed out the subjective nature of your assertion. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## hodgjy

Bassic Needs said:


> Wrong. You made an assertion. I pointed out the subjective nature of your assertion. Nothing more, nothing less.


Oh no! Subjective thoughts in a subjective thread! How stupid of me!


----------



## bcowen

hodgjy said:


> Tube rolling threads are subjective. How do you objectively analyze tubes? An oscilloscope? We go by what we hear and how it matches our preferences. For me, the three tubes I mentioned are better than another, especially since they are dirt cheap. *I didn’t make any claims beyond that.* It makes no sense to roll in a tube that costs as much as the amp.
> 
> I’ve rolled everything through the Vali 2+, including the kitchen sink, so of course I have lots of opinions.
> 
> If people want to come after me in a subjective thread and question my use of the word better or best, I’ve got better things to do than share my experiences here. I have a mountain of tubes, spare tubes, and plenty of time to burn. You all can spare me the indignity while I keep to myself.


No, but you're coming across as critical when someone doesn't immediately embrace the tubes you've suggested.  Maybe that's not your intent, but that's how it reads.  Just sayin'.

If you want to take your ball and go home when someone offers an opinion that differs from yours, then that's obviously up to you.


----------



## bcowen

hodgjy said:


> Oh no! Subjective thoughts in a subjective thread! How stupid of me!


Bye.


----------



## Ripper2860

Wow.  And I thought Bill was thin-skinned.  🙄


----------



## hodgjy

It's not that I'm thin-skinned or take my ball home when people have different opinions. That's an incredibly shallow view of what just happened and you know that.

The issue here is this entire thread is based on opinions. I offer up mine and I'm basically being told I'm not allowed to use the word "better." Maybe that's not your intent, but that's how it reads. Just sayin'.

Go back and re-read what I posted before you're so quick to judge me. I said "I cannot recommend tube X because..." I never said my opinions were the only correct ones and that no one was able to disagree. I also further qualified why I felt they were "better" because they're basically dirt cheap. Once you're spending $50+ on tubes for the Vali 2+, you don't need better tubes; you need a better amp. I apologize if suggesting cost-effective tubes for new tube rollers somehow personally offended you. But, that's your problem, not mine. If spending 33-100% or more of the amp's value on a single tube makes you feel better about yourself, you do you.

A bigger issue is Head-Fi used to be a very vibrant place where opinions and discourse flowed freely. But, about 3-4 years ago a bunch of people crashed the joint and started telling people how to post here as if they've owned the place for years. I'm not thin-skinned; I just value my time more than the crapfest this thread has become recently and the people who perpetuate it.


----------



## Ripper2860

IMHO...


----------



## Mr Trev

Ripper2860 said:


> IMHO...


Granted, but @bcowen's grudge against GE tubes does tend to veer off into Saturday morning cartoon levels ("…and I woulda gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you meddling kids and your GE tubes")


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Granted, but @bcowen's grudge against GE tubes does tend to veer off into Saturday morning cartoon levels ("…and I woulda gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you meddling kids and your GE tubes")


….GE to GEC: “I coulda been a pretender…”


----------



## Bobertsawesome

Does anyone have an opinion on a couple of tubes I can roll with my Vali to try something? Looking for a few tubes that have a different signature, if you can call it that, so I can decide what I like best. I may upgrade to the Valhalla so I'll probably buy matched pairs.


----------



## inmytaxi

Bobertsawesome said:


> Does anyone have an opinion on a couple of tubes I can roll with my Vali to try something? Looking for a few tubes that have a different signature, if you can call it that, so I can decide what I like best. I may upgrade to the Valhalla so I'll probably buy matched pairs.


The best new tube I have found is the Gold Lion 6922 / E88CC ... extended lows and highs and better clarity.  An obvious difference that is better than most others.

You can also go down the NOS rabbit hole, but that is very expensive and you will not benefit as much with a Vali 2, not sure about a Valhalla which is an odd looking bird. Don't know how much I'd like all those tubes so close together. The heat output will be high.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Bobertsawesome said:


> Does anyone have an opinion on a couple of tubes I can roll with my Vali to try something? Looking for a few tubes that have a different signature, if you can call it that, so I can decide what I like best. I may upgrade to the Valhalla so I'll probably buy matched pairs.


Sure… what are you looking for? I’ve tried a lot of tubes in my Vali and Vali+


----------



## Keno18

nordkapp said:


> Any thoughts on the EH 6922? I just ordered one for my V2. I know it's a big time input/gain tube for a lot of the upper echelon stereo preamplifiers out there(ARC, BAT, MCINTOSH etc.)


I used it when I had a Vali 2. It's not bad. I liked the Gold Lion 6922 better but it makes the sound a little V shaped.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

For your Vali 2 or 2+?
I have a couple EH tubes including the 6922. I just bond with them… most people like them - I find them a little bright and thin. But I don’t plan on selling mine


----------



## InvisibleInk

Bobertsawesome said:


> Does anyone have an opinion on a couple of tubes I can roll with my Vali to try something? Looking for a few tubes that have a different signature, if you can call it that, so I can decide what I like best. I may upgrade to the Valhalla so I'll probably buy matched pairs.


I stopped rolling when discovered the electro-harmonix 6CG7


----------



## perror

InvisibleInk said:


> I stopped rolling when discovered the electro-harmonix 6CG7


Hi @InvisibleInk do you need an adapter to use the 6CG7 with the Vali 2 or were you using it with the Valhalla? Thanks a bunch!


----------



## Bobertsawesome

oakparkmusicguy said:


> Sure… what are you looking for? I’ve tried a lot of tubes in my Vali and Vali+


Well, I just upgraded my headphones to the HD800S and I'm really looking to bring out the joyful warmth Sennheisers can provide on tubes. Obviously not as good as a complete tube amp such as the Valhalla, but something before I upgrade.


----------



## Bobertsawesome

oakparkmusicguy said:


> For your Vali 2 or 2+?
> I have a couple EH tubes including the 6922. I just bond with them… most people like them - I find them a little bright and thin. But I don’t plan on selling mine


Vali 2 original. Planned to upgrade to the 2+ but I figured it would be better to eat the extra cost and go to the Valhalla. I'm driving an HD800S so I'm not worried about sensitivity, and would prefer the extra power.


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

You don’t need an adapter for the 6CG7.
I don’t know how warm the 800S are 
The warmest tube I have is a Coronado 6CG7. 
I have some Fotons and Voskhod tubes that are very thick sounding but lack a bit in soundstage.
My 5670s seem very punchy and clear.


----------



## inmytaxi

Bobertsawesome said:


> Well, I just upgraded my headphones to the HD800S and I'm really looking to bring out the joyful warmth Sennheisers can provide on tubes. Obviously not as good as a complete tube amp such as the Valhalla, but something before I upgrade.


You looking for that 'hi impedance' hook up bro.


----------



## Bobertsawesome

Ended up ordering separate matched pairs of gold pin EH and Gold Lions from vivatube. Planning my upgrade to Valhalla sooner than later so it’ll be nice to roll these and break them in beforehand.


----------



## dbull12 (Nov 12, 2021)

Hey everyone, I'm planning on ordering the Vali 2+ soon for my 6XXs, and I was hoping I could get some help picking out a tube or two to try. I'll probably also be getting the Modi Multibit in the next couple months. I'm looking for a tube that will widen the soundstage a bit, give more of a "tubey" sound with good detail and timbre, be somewhat relaxed and pleasant (I just don't want anything fatiguing), and not be extremely hot. Assuming all those boxes get ticked then having a nice glow would also be a plus. I've looked on Upscale Audio, Tube Depot, Viva Tubes, TC Tubes, and Brent Jessee's site, and I've put together this list:

EH 6922 - $19
EH 6CG7 - $24
Voskhod Rocket 6N1P-EV - $14
Voskhod Rocket 6N23P - $22
Reflector 6N23P-EV - $37
RCA Cleartop 6CG7, side mounted getter - $20
Western Electric 396A - $60 (+$10 adapter)
Siemens 6DJ8 - $45
Amperex Bugleboy 6DJ8 - $49

Obviously I don't expect anyone to have heard all of these, but any guidance would be helpful. Is the WE 396A thought of by most as being by far the best among these? I'm not opposed to spending the money if it will really be a noticeable difference. The EH tubes seem pretty hit or miss based on all the posts I've read. The 6N1P-EV seems like it'll get pretty hot and I've seen a few people say it's a bit on the aggressive-sounding side. Also is the Reflector worth the extra money over the non-EV Voskhod 6N23? Any help is really appreciated.


----------



## jonathan c

dbull12 said:


> Hey everyone, I'm planning on ordering the Vali 2+ soon for my 6XXs, and I was hoping I could get some help picking out a tube or two to try. I'll probably also be getting the Modi Multibit in the next couple months. I'm looking for a tube that will widen the soundstage a bit, give more of a "tubey" sound with good detail and timbre, be somewhat relaxed and pleasant (I just don't want anything fatiguing), not be extremely hot. Assuming all those boxes get ticked then having a nice glow would also be a plus. I've looked on Upscale Audio, Tube Depot, Viva Tubes, TC Tubes, and Brent Jessee's site, and I've put together this list:
> 
> EH 6922 - $19
> EH 6CG7 - $24
> ...


Do you have a $$ limit ? I ask because with adapters, other tube types can come “into play”. If you wish to stay in the 6DJ8/6922 tube type, some that I have used and very much liked (in Schiit Valhalla II) are:
~ Amperex PQ 6922 (white globe),
~ Siemens E88CC,
~ Tungsram E88CC (red lettering).
These are more $$ than what you have mentioned. Whatever you choose, purchase two. It is always good to have a backup.


----------



## dbull12

jonathan c said:


> Do you have a $$ limit ? I ask because with adapters, other tube types can come “into play”. If you wish to stay in the 6DJ8/6922 tube type, some that I have used and very much liked (in Schiit Valhalla II) are:
> ~ Amperex PQ 6922 (white globe),
> ~ Siemens E88CC,
> ~ Tungsram E88CC (red lettering).
> These are more $$ than what you have mentioned. Whatever you choose, purchase two. It is always good to have a backup.


Thanks for the suggestions! I'd like to not spend more than ~$70 and ideally less than that unless it's a big upgrade in sound quality from the cheap ~$20 tubes. The Tungsram E88CC is $70 on thetubestore so that would be the same as the WE 396A plus adapter. Have you happened to try the 396A?


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

I have the Voskhod you list. I don’t like them. Very thick sound. I’m not a huge fan of the EH but I think they would pair better with 6XX. And the lower power Rocket doesn’t have enough - go with the higher one - 6N23 I think.

I would say try a cheap GE 5670.

If you’re interested I have a lot of tubes I don’t use and would let them go cheap.
Some EH, some RCA 7N7, 6N7 (or is it 6NS7?) and others - some 6922, 6CG7.

Tube rolling is fun but matters less than I thought.


----------



## hodgjy (Nov 12, 2021)

dbull12 said:


> Hey everyone, I'm planning on ordering the Vali 2+ soon for my 6XXs, and I was hoping I could get some help picking out a tube or two to try. I'll probably also be getting the Modi Multibit in the next couple months. *I'm looking for a tube that will widen the soundstage a bit, give more of a "tubey" sound with good detail and timbre, be somewhat relaxed and pleasant (I just don't want anything fatiguing), and not be extremely hot.* Assuming all those boxes get ticked then having a nice glow would also be a plus. I've looked on Upscale Audio, Tube Depot, Viva Tubes, TC Tubes, and Brent Jessee's site, and I've put together this list:


1960s GE 6CG7. You could do a lot worse for a lot more money. They are under $15 shipped to your door from eBay.


----------



## timb5881

oakparkmusicguy said:


> I have the Voskhod you list. I don’t like them. Very thick sound. I’m not a huge fan of the EH but I think they would pair better with 6XX. And the lower power Rocket doesn’t have enough - go with the higher one - 6N23 I think.
> 
> I would say try a cheap GE 5670.
> 
> ...


I have rolled a lot of tubes over the years.   Sometimes I hear a large difference and other times not so much.   I would recommend getting an adapter to use 6SN7 with the Vali 2.    One of my favorite tubes is a Sylvania 6SN7 with the off set parallel flat plates.  This has a mellow tube.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

I've been musing about buying a pair of GE 6CG7 (matched [balanced triodes?], high gain, buy the Brazilian-made [just as good as USA-made w/o the $20/tube premium?], don't pay the extra $4/tube for 'low noise'... meh, that's WHY I want different tubes... I want to hear them whine). Link. And then swap them between my Valhalla 2 and Vali 2. Has anybody tried that? And if so, did it make an appreciable different in the output?


----------



## stuff9414

Hi this may be stupid I have tried 6 different tubes and I've enjoyed 5 of them. But the best looking glow has got to be the stock. Anyone recommend a tube that looking pretty?


----------



## Mr Trev

I got a GE triple mica 5670 that's pretty damn glowy. Seriously, the thing is like a nightlight


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

Mr Trev said:


> I got a GE triple mica 5670 that's pretty damn glowy. Seriously, the thing is like a nightlight


Yeah they are!! I was going to suggest a 5670.


----------



## stuff9414

Triple mica?


----------



## stuff9414

Mr Trev said:


> I got a GE triple mica 5670 that's pretty damn glowy. Seriously, the thing is like a nightlight


Triple mica?


----------



## oakparkmusicguy

I don’t know. I have a bunch of 5670s but I know one is like an Xmas tree.


----------



## Mr Trev

stuff9414 said:


> Triple mica?


https://www.nosvacuumtubes.net/product/ge-5670/
Most tubes have 2 micas. Triple mica goes to 11


----------



## stuff9414

oakparkmusicguy said:


> I don’t know. I have a bunch of 5670s but I know one is like an Xmas tree.


Huh found one buying it now!


----------



## emorrison33

dbull12 said:


> Hey everyone, I'm planning on ordering the Vali 2+ soon for my 6XXs, and I was hoping I could get some help picking out a tube or two to try. I'll probably also be getting the Modi Multibit in the next couple months. I'm looking for a tube that will widen the soundstage a bit, give more of a "tubey" sound with good detail and timbre, be somewhat relaxed and pleasant (I just don't want anything fatiguing), and not be extremely hot. Assuming all those boxes get ticked then having a nice glow would also be a plus. I've looked on Upscale Audio, Tube Depot, Viva Tubes, TC Tubes, and Brent Jessee's site, and I've put together this list:
> 
> EH 6922 - $19
> EH 6CG7 - $24
> ...


I would get the Modi Multibit sooner rather than later:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...bable-start-up.701900/page-4414#post-15942607
I purchased an adapter to use 6SN7 tubes (@Deyan makes excellent adapters for cheap).  I like most of the 6SN7 tubes I have (only have a few) more than the 6922's.  In general, I think the soundstage is wider


----------



## dbull12

emorrison33 said:


> I would get the Modi Multibit sooner rather than later:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...bable-start-up.701900/page-4414#post-15942607
> I purchased an adapter to use 6SN7 tubes (@Deyan makes excellent adapters for cheap).  I like most of the 6SN7 tubes I have (only have a few) more than the 6922's.  In general, I think the soundstage is wider


Thanks! That post about Modi Multibit being on its last run was over a year ago. Are they still working through selling those units or has something changed since then? I'll try to get mine ASAP though.

Also may I ask what 6SN7 tubes you have? I'm wondering if a cheap 6SN7 like an Electro-Harmonix or JJ would be better than some of the more expensive 6922s.


----------



## Mr Trev

stuff9414 said:


> Huh found one buying it now!


I should also point out that you need an adapter to use a 5670 in the Vali <in case you didn't already know>


----------



## stuff9414

Mr Trev said:


> I should also point out that you need an adapter to use a 5670 in the Vali <in case you didn't already know>


I did know, and I already have one. Thanks though!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

stuff9414 said:


> Hi this may be stupid I have tried 6 different tubes and I've enjoyed 5 of them. But the best looking glow has got to be the stock. Anyone recommend a tube that looking pretty?


A LED lightbulb? There must be adapters...


----------



## stuff9414

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> A LED lightbulb? There must be adapters...


Tried that already.... doesn't have the same warmth. It's more of a cold light.


----------



## bcowen

stuff9414 said:


> Tried that already.... doesn't have the same warmth. It's more of a cold light.


LOL!  Yeah, LED's just don't do it.  What you need is this:


----------



## emorrison33

dbull12 said:


> Thanks! That post about Modi Multibit being on its last run was over a year ago. Are they still working through selling those units or has something changed since then? I'll try to get mine ASAP though.
> 
> Also may I ask what 6SN7 tubes you have? I'm wondering if a cheap 6SN7 like an Electro-Harmonix or JJ would be better than some of the more expensive 6922s.


I have not heard or read anything about the Modi Multibit since that post by Jason.  Are they on the last run now? Don't know, but you never know.

My favorite 6SN7 is the Psvane UK-6SN7.  It's just maple syrup to my ears.  The good Vermont kind.  I have the JJ too, and that is decent.  The other tube I had was an RCA, but I never knew which one.  A vendor I purchased some other tubes from threw it in with some 6922 tubes I purchased from him.  One of my cats pulled on the power cord and broke the tube when it tilted over. But like I said, in general, with the 6SN7 tubes I am getting a better soundstage than the 6922 tubes...slight but noticeable.


----------



## jonathan c

emorrison33 said:


> I have not heard or read anything about the Modi Multibit since that post by Jason.  Are they on the last run now? Don't know, but you never know.
> 
> My favorite 6SN7 is the Psvane UK-6SN7.  It's just maple syrup to my ears.  The good Vermont kind.  I have the JJ too, and that is decent.  The other tube I had was an RCA, but I never knew which one.  A vendor I purchased some other tubes from threw it in with some 6922 tubes I purchased from him.  One of my cats pulled on the power cord and broke the tube when it tilted over. But like I said, in general, with the 6SN7 tubes I am getting a better soundstage than the 6922 tubes...slight but noticeable.


If you want soundstage with 6SN7, go with RCA ‘red base’ 5692 or CBS/Hytron ‘brown base’ 5692.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> If you want soundstage with 6SN7, go with RCA ‘red base’ 5692 or CBS/Hytron ‘brown base’ 5692.


Agree.

Or a 7N7->6922 adapter and an early 50's tall bottle Sylvania.  @Deyan made this adapter for me (one piece construction):


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Agree.
> 
> Or a 7N7->6922 adapter and an early 50's tall bottle Sylvania.  @Deyan made this adapter for me (one piece construction):


Guaranteed to increase the height as well as width of soundstage…


----------



## stuff9414

bcowen said:


> Agree.
> 
> Or a 7N7->6922 adapter and an early 50's tall bottle Sylvania.  @Deyan made this adapter for me (one piece construction):


Where would I get one? I'm intrigued!


----------



## bcowen

stuff9414 said:


> Where would I get one? I'm intrigued!


Send a PM to @Deyan for the adapter.  If he didn't keep the measurements on hand, I can measure mine and send back to him. 

This shows the exact tube you want.  Tall bottle, opposed T-plates, flashing halfway down the inside of the glass, fully oval (racetrack) top and bottom micas. The price on this particular one is quite high (I've purchased most of mine for less than $25), but this is currently the only one listed on Ebay.  You may want to shop and/or wait a bit until a less expensive one pops up.  The branding is pretty much irrelevant as Sylvania and National Union were the only manufacturers of this tube type, and only the Sylvanias have all the above listed characteristics.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255010314715?hash=item3b5fcc99db:g:aRUAAOSw~PdeN0dM


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


>


If Johnny Holmes were a tube h/p/a…


----------



## inmytaxi

Ripper2860 said:


> Wow.  And I thought Bill was thin-skinned.  🙄


What'd you say about people with 4 letter first names ending in 'L'?!?


----------



## jwolt

Capt369 said:


> I'd like to hear from others who have rolled the 6dj8 etc. with this amp and what their impressions are of each tube tried, from cheap to exotic.
> 
> Thanks.


i have a bunch of different tubes for the Vali 2, but unfortunately I cannot hear a difference between any of them.  Probably bc it's a hybrid


----------



## stuff9414

jwolt said:


> i have a bunch of different tubes for the Vali 2, but unfortunately I cannot hear a difference between any of them.  Probably bc it's a hybrid


I hear a very small difference on good tubes. The fact you haven't heard a real difference is that you haven't bought really bad tubes...  I did and the ones I got make it sound like it's muffled and out of tune.


----------



## jleewachter

jwolt said:


> i have a bunch of different tubes for the Vali 2, but unfortunately I cannot hear a difference between any of them.  Probably bc it's a hybrid


Same. Either I don't have the ears/patience to differentiate the differences or they simply don't exist to the level that most 'normal' people would notice. I'm sure many will tell me I'm wrong out of their own desire to validate their $100+ tube purchase, but I'm fairly confident that placebo-effect drives most of the 'differences' in SQ from various tubes. Just my humble opinion.


----------



## hodgjy

jleewachter said:


> Same. Either I don't have the ears/patience to differentiate the differences or they simply don't exist to the level that most 'normal' people would notice. I'm sure many will tell me I'm wrong out of their own desire to validate their $100+ tube purchase, but I'm fairly confident that placebo-effect drives most of the 'differences' in SQ from various tubes. Just my humble opinion.


As internet posters, we are very guilty of overemphasizing differences and describing small changes as if they seem like huge transformations. But, I can say that I've rolled my Vali 2+ quite extensively, and my ears can pick up on differences between tubes. I think part of the issue for those who can't hear differences is they are expecting large differences, like you would get when you change headphones or even use an equalizer. Rather, listen between the notes, and that's where the tube differences reside. Some tubes have faster transients, others sound thicker, etc. The distortion tubes provide doesn't change the pitch of notes, it changes the spaces around them.


----------



## jleewachter (Dec 20, 2021)

hodgjy said:


> As internet posters, we are very guilty of overemphasizing differences and describing small changes as if they seem like huge transformations. But, I can say that I've rolled my Vali 2+ quite extensively, and my ears can pick up on differences between tubes. I think part of the issue for those who can't hear differences is they are expecting large differences, like you would get when you change headphones or even use an equalizer. Rather, listen between the notes, and that's where the tube differences reside. Some tubes have faster transients, others sound thicker, etc. The distortion tubes provide doesn't change the pitch of notes, it changes the spaces around them.


Makes sense. I've admittedly not really done much lately in terms of critical listening so I'm not denying that there are those out there who can hear these differences. Maybe I'll give tube rolling another try w/ my vali 2 and see if I have any better luck than the last time I tried it (which was quite some time ago.) 

(btw, I absolutely love Schiit's equipment. I hope people don't misunderstand my earlier statement as thinking I dislike the Vali 2. )


----------



## tafens

In my tube rolling experience, differences are often subtle. However, even subtle differences can feel big given some time.

When I pop a new tube in it often feels like it sounds very similar to the tube just replaced. Of course, there might be something that stands out immediately, but mostly there is not. But then, as time and listening goes on (and not trying to hear the tube, just listening to the music) things start to present themselves, both good and bad. Some slightly narrower or wider soundstage perhaps, or more/less prominent mids, bass or treble, maybe more clarity/or detail. All subtle but the ears start to tune in to it more and more, and the differences emerge. Swapping back and forth a few (or many) times can emphasise the differences even more. Sometimes it’s quick and sometimes it takes more time to zero in on the differences and decide which one sounds “best” to your ear, and subtle differences in the beginning can start to feel obvious.

In my experience anyway. I hope this made some sort of sense


----------



## stuff9414

So I finally went crazy.... bought a second vali and a SYS. I'm now running them both into the sys out to my IEMagni. It's a lot of Schiit, but now I can test A-B my tubes!


----------



## bcowen

stuff9414 said:


> So I finally went crazy.... bought a second vali and a SYS. I'm now running them both into the sys out to my IEMagni. It's a lot of Schiit, but now I can test A-B my tubes!


Nice!  I see a Brimar box there....6BQ7A?  I _really_ like that tube in the Vali 2.


----------



## stuff9414

bcowen said:


> Brimar box there....6BQ7A?


I think so... I got it when I bought a random 6BQ7 tubestore.com


----------



## 1856Audio

Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've had a Vali 2 for about 6 months, and recently took the plunge in to tube rolling. After trying some tubes that fit in the Vali, I purchased a 6SN7 adapter and a tube. The tube doesn't fully seat in to the adapter, is this a problem? I've already purchased a second adapter, and it has the same issue.


----------



## Hyde00

1856Audio said:


> Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've had a Vali 2 for about 6 months, and recently took the plunge in to tube rolling. After trying some tubes that fit in the Vali, I purchased a 6SN7 adapter and a tube. The tube doesn't fully seat in to the adapter, is this a problem? I've already purchased a second adapter, and it has the same issue.


I don't have the adaptor but off my head my guess is that maybe the adaptor is not "deep" enough and your pins bottom out before it goes fully in?

Where did you get the adaptor from, would you be able to link or picture by any chance?

Though either case should still be functional though I think.


----------



## 1856Audio

Hyde00 said:


> I don't have the adaptor but off my head my guess is that maybe the adaptor is not "deep" enough and your pins bottom out before it goes fully in?
> 
> Where did you get the adaptor from, would you be able to link or picture by any chance?
> 
> Though either case should still be functional though I think.


The adapter came from Tube Depot. The adapter they show online has the insert above the base, the ones that have been sent have the insert even with the base. I have reached out to them, and they tell me all of the ones they have are like what was sent. Being new, it looks like I can't add pictures. The tube works, I just want to make sure it's ok to use.


----------



## Hyde00

1856Audio said:


> The adapter came from Tube Depot. The adapter they show online has the insert above the base, the ones that have been sent have the insert even with the base. I have reached out to them, and they tell me all of the ones they have are like what was sent. Being new, it looks like I can't add pictures. The tube works, I just want to make sure it's ok to use.


Yeah I believe it should be safe to use, just might not look visually pleasing but functionality wise I think it should be ok???

But again like I said I don't actually own one so let's see what other people have to say.


----------



## ishmaelk

I bought an OTK Voskhod tube with a 03-1976 date code for my Vali 2+. 
Wow. What a difference between this and the stock tube. I don't dislike the stock tube as much as other people. I actually think it's pretty decent. 
But this Voskhod tube, without sounding too thick (all totally subjective, I know), makes my HD800S really shine. I can use them with no sign of fatigue at all. And between the extra soundstage of the tube and the huge separation of the 800S... 
There is a certain thump, a physicality in the bass with this tube that is totally unexpected. I didn't appreciate the same kind of effect in the bass on the 6XX. 
Well, whatever... it's certainly a great purchase in my opinion. It really takes de Vali 2+ to a new level.


----------



## bcowen

1856Audio said:


> The adapter came from Tube Depot. The adapter they show online has the insert above the base, the ones that have been sent have the insert even with the base. I have reached out to them, and they tell me all of the ones they have are like what was sent. Being new, it looks like I can't add pictures. The tube works, I just want to make sure it's ok to use.


As long as the tube pins are making good contact in the socket (doesn't feel loose or wobble), there's no issue with it not fully seating and it's perfectly fine to use.


----------



## treydufrene

Just subbing in.. long thread! 
Looking to pick one of these up soon to pair with my 6XX.. Looks like I have a lot of reading to do to have some ideas as to what tubes will pair well


----------



## tafens

treydufrene said:


> Just subbing in.. long thread!


Well, I guess there’s been a lot to say 😜


treydufrene said:


> Looking to pick one of these up soon to pair with my 6XX.. Looks like I have a lot of reading to do to have some ideas as to what tubes will pair well


The new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB is a very good start IMHO, it makes a great combo with the Lyr3 and HD6XX, all of which I happen to like a lot. On the NOS side, the Russian Foton 6H8C/6N8S (6SN7 equivalent) is also a great start, and also very cheap. 

It _is_ a long thread, but totally worth reading it through because it has a lot of great tips and discussions on tubes for the Lyr3 

(and you’ll also learn who is the biggest tube hoar.. I mean _*collector*_ )


----------



## tafens

tafens said:


> Well, I guess there’s been a lot to say 😜
> 
> The new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB is a very good start IMHO, it makes a great combo with the Lyr3 and HD6XX, all of which I happen to like a lot. On the NOS side, the Russian Foton 6H8C/6N8S (6SN7 equivalent) is also a great start, and also very cheap.
> 
> ...


Argh, note to self: Mind what thread you’re writing in, this the Vali2 thread, not the Lyr3 thread. Vali2. The small one. Right. Anyway, I also happen to like the Vali2 a lot with the HD6XX, so I might have something worthwhile so say about it, too.

Luckily the 6SN7 can be used with the Vali2 easily, all that is needed is a riser and an adapter, so those tube tips are not totally out.

As for new production tubes directly for the Vali2, I don’t really have any tips because I haven’t really used any. But when it comes to NOS I’d say the Voskhod rocket (6N23P, a 6922/6DJ8 equivalent) is a good - and quite cheap - starting point.

A general tube rolling tip would be to learn your equivalent tube designations for the tube you’re looking for and you might still find great tubes for cheap. But if you do, be careful not to tell anyone because then you’ll have an instant price hike on your hands


----------



## bcowen

tafens said:


> Argh, note to self: Mind what thread you’re writing in, this the Vali2 thread, not the Lyr3 thread. Vali2. The small one. Right. Anyway, I also happen to like the Vali2 a lot with the HD6XX, so I might have something worthwhile so say about it, too.
> 
> *Luckily the 6SN7 can be used with the Vali2 easily, all that is needed is a riser and an adapter, so those tube tips are not totally out.*


Or get a 1-piece adapter from @Deyan and you can dispense with the riser.  Mine has a loctal socket on top for a 7N7, but I'm sure he can do the same with an octal socket for a 6SN7.


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> Or get a 1-piece adapter from @Deyan and you can dispense with the riser.  Mine has a loctal socket on top for a 7N7, but I'm sure he can do the same with an octal socket for a 6SN7.


Nice!! 

I have a 7N7-to-6SN7, a 6SN7-to-6922, and a riser for that. Barbaric, I know. My excuse is that I can use the 7N7 adapter for my Lyr3 too. Also, I didn’t think it was possible to buy adapters like that!


----------



## Mr Trev

@bcowen 
These they good 6BZ7? https://www.ebay.ca/itm/312754940231
Is it worth paying 4x more for the shipping than the tube? Should the seller even be trusted (no actual test results)


----------



## stuff9414 (Feb 4, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> @bcowen
> These they good 6BZ7? https://www.ebay.ca/itm/312754940231
> Is it worth paying 4x more for the shipping than the tube? Should the seller even be trusted (no actual test results)


Not really... I did an A/B test with 2 valis a sys and a dozen different tubes. While there was a difference between the good and bad tubes, between good tubes I couldn't tell any differences... much to my disappointment 

Ultimately Any good tube sounds good on the vali, so find one good one and enjoy


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> @bcowen
> These they good 6BZ7? https://www.ebay.ca/itm/312754940231
> Is it worth paying 4x more for the shipping than the tube? Should the seller even be trusted (no actual test results)


It's really hard to tell from his photos what the plate style is.  I have 2 different vintages, with the ones on the left below having a 2-piece plate (per triode) and the ones on the right having a more traditional box plate.  Both have O getters, although the ones on the left (older) are smaller than the newer ones.  I prefer the older, 2-piece plate version, but it's not a huge difference.  Both sound quite good in the Vali 2.

As to the seller, he doesn't have a lot of feedback, and part of what he does have isn't very glowing.  I paid just over $30 per pair for these plus $7 or so shipping about a year ago, so you'd be paying almost as much in total for 1 tube.  If it were me, I'd wait for a better deal...I see these pop up from time to time for pretty reasonable prices.


----------



## bcowen

stuff9414 said:


> *Not really...* I did an A/B test with 2 valis a sys and a dozen different tubes. While there was a difference between the good and bad tubes, between good tubes I couldn't tell any differences... much to my disappointment
> 
> Ultimately Any good tube sounds good on the vali, so find one good one and enjoy


So are the Brimars you're commenting on a good tube or a bad tube?


----------



## stuff9414

Any tube that a tube store (vivatubes or tubedepot in USA tubestore in canada) or a reputable merchant is likely a good tube.
 However as I have this specific tube yes it is. However I paid 12 CAD for it.... though it was luck of the draw, I paid for a NOS 6BQ7A and they sent me that Brimar.


----------



## jump_man95

M4573rm1nd said:


> Hello, guys and gals! Want to share my expressions on tube rolling for my new Schiit Vali2+. It's my first hybrid headphone amplifier and I'm pretty new to external solotions, used much Creative and Asus internal audio cards since late 90s.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where did you get that cool knurled knob for the vali?


----------



## jump_man95

oakparkmusicguy said:


> I have the Voskhod you list. I don’t like them. Very thick sound. I’m not a huge fan of the EH but I think they would pair better with 6XX. And the lower power Rocket doesn’t have enough - go with the higher one - 6N23 I think.
> 
> I would say try a cheap GE 5670.
> 
> ...


I would buy some 6ns7, 7n7, and 6CG7 if you still have them


----------



## InvisibleInk

jump_man95 said:


> I would buy some 6ns7, 7n7, and 6CG7 if you still have them


Yeah, the Russian electro-harmonix 6CG7 !!!


----------



## Willy 2 Streams

Forgive me if this is somewhat off topic, but not completely so, since this is a tube rolling thread. I saw where somebody mentioned a protocol for bring OLD NOS tubes up to condition in the oven BEFORE you put 'em in and fire 'em up for the first time... Does anyone here know that protocol? 
     I've got some old NOS tubes that are old as I am (67), and this seems like a good thing to know about...


----------



## Mr Trev

Call me a cynic, but I really can't see how "tempering" your tubes before use would have any benefit


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Call me a cynic, but I really can't see how "tempering" your tubes before use would have any benefit


+1


----------



## jonathan c (Feb 23, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> Call me a cynic, but I really can't see how "tempering" your tubes before use would have any benefit


If the tubes are Philips ECGs, a week in the oven at 650 F seems an appropriate start… 😁


----------



## Willy 2 Streams

bcowen said:


> +1





Mr Trev said:


> Call me a cynic, but I really can't see how "tempering" your tubes before use would have any benefit


Something about how, when they've been sitting in the box unused for that many decades, the metal needs to expand gradually before being used, so as to not being unduly shocked by the sudden onrush of current, with untoward results....sounded believable to me.


----------



## bcowen

Willy 2 Streams said:


> Something about how, when they've been sitting in the box unused for that many decades, the metal needs to expand gradually before being used, so as to not being unduly shocked by the sudden onrush of current, with untoward results....sounded believable to me.


I read something along those lines a while back too, but don't remember where.  While I don't remember specific details, I _do_ remember thinking the claims of benefit were rather exaggerated and dubious so I didn't pursue it any further.  Just my opinion, of course.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I read something along those lines a while back too, but don't remember where.  While I don't remember specific details, I _do_ remember thinking the claims of benefit were rather exaggerated and dubious so I didn't pursue it any further.  Just my opinion, of course.


I maybe could see that helping with something like the solder on the pins, but I dunno about the internals themselves. Could that be why all your Fotons didn't cut it OOTB, you didn't bake em first.
I suppose as long as you're not using the microwave, there really should be no harm done. And besides I've heard some far more questionable claims in the audio world <cough, tiger maple, cough>


----------



## Willy 2 Streams

bcowen said:


> I read something along those lines a while back too, but don't remember where.  While I don't remember specific details, I _do_ remember thinking the claims of benefit were rather exaggerated and dubious so I didn't pursue it any further.  Just my opinion, of course.


You're probably right! Still, probably wouldn't hurt to stick 'em in my little toaster oven on "Warm" (150 degrees) for 30 minutes before I fire it up. At least it'll feel I gave it a warm welcome.


----------



## InvisibleInk

Willy 2 Streams said:


> You're probably right! Still, probably wouldn't hurt to stick 'em in my little toaster oven on "Warm" (150 degrees) for 30 minutes before I fire it up. At least it'll feel I gave it a warm welcome.


Whatever gives you the warm and fuzzies, Bro.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 24, 2022)

Willy 2 Streams said:


> You're probably right! Still, probably wouldn't hurt to stick 'em in my little toaster oven on "Warm" (150 degrees) for 30 minutes before I fire it up. At least it'll feel I gave it a warm welcome.


Yup, so long as you don't end up with vacuum leaks in the pin/glass interface from heating in a way other than intended.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I maybe could see that helping with something like the solder on the pins, but I dunno about the internals themselves. Could that be why all your Fotons didn't cut it OOTB, you didn't bake em first.
> I suppose as long as you're not using the microwave, there really should be no harm done. And besides I've heard some far more questionable claims in the audio world <cough, tiger maple, cough>


I haven't met a Russian made tube yet that sounded its best right out of the box.  But that's only if you believe that tube break-in is a thing.


----------



## Willy 2 Streams

bcowen said:


> Yup, so long as you don't end up with vacuum leaks from the pin/glass interface from heating in a way other than intended.


Good point!...think I'll belay that idea.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I haven't met a Russian made tube yet that sounded its best right out of the box.  But that's only if you believe that tube break-in is a thing.


Russian tubes are still fighting the _Cold War…🤣😒👎…_


----------



## InvisibleInk

jonathan c said:


> Russian tubes are still fighting the _Cold War…🤣😒👎…_


Too soon, man. Too soon...


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I maybe could see that helping with something like the solder on the pins, but I dunno about the internals themselves. Could that be why all your Fotons didn't cut it OOTB, you didn't bake em first.
> I suppose as long as you're not using the microwave, there really should be no harm done. *And besides I've heard some far more questionable claims in the audio world <cough, **tiger maple**, cough*>


Here you go Mr Trev.   And as a bonus, I'm pretty sure Matthew is the brother of James.  🤣🤣

https://matthewbondaudio.com/produc...matthewbond&utm_medium=email&utm_source=zaius


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Here you go Mr Trev.   And as a bonus, I'm pretty sure Matthew is the brother of James.  🤣🤣
> 
> https://matthewbondaudio.com/produc...matthewbond&utm_medium=email&utm_source=zaius


Does the CD have green ink already applied, or is that a DIY option?
Besides if it was truly effective, shouldn't it be selling for $289.50 instead


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Does the CD have green ink already applied, or is that a DIY option?
> Besides if it was truly effective, shouldn't it be selling for $289.50 instead


What?!?  Didn't you see it's 30% off with* free shipping*?  It would obviously be $289.50 without the discount.  

I'll let you borrow my green pen if it helps.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> https://matthewbondaudio.com/produc...matthewbond&utm_medium=email&utm_source=zaius


…the role is to burn a hole in your wallet…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …the* role* is to burn a hole in your wallet…


Hmmmm....there's another kind of 'roll' that does the same thing.  🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Hmmmm....there's another kind of 'roll' that does the same thing.  🤣


At least you get something for it 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> At least you get something for it 🤷🏻‍♂️


 I thought the same thing when I took on a wife.  Oh well.  😇


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I thought the same thing when I took on a wife.  Oh well.  😇


You ‘took _on_’ a wife rather than ‘took’ a wife? What happened? Did she beat the filaments & getter out of you?🤣🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> You ‘took _on_’ a wife rather than ‘took’ a wife? What happened? *Did she beat the filaments & getter out of you?*🤣🤣🤣


LOL!  No, but she beat every last trace of green out of my wallet.  🤣

Besides, 'taking' a wife is illegal in many jurisdictions. 😜


----------



## emorrison33

I put in a Genalex Gold Lion E88CC/6922 gold pin in the Vali 2 this morning.  I haven't used it in months because I thought it was too bright.  It's still bright to me, but it seems like it has more width than before.  Do tubes "age" like wine? LOL  No seriously, do you think age effects these tubes?  I mean most of us look for NOS tubes, some made in the 50's and 60's.  Other then internal components possibly degrading over time from sitting around (temp, humidity changes, etc.), anyone notice a tube sounding better after sitting for awhile? Or is this just in my head....Also, are we supposed to be boycotting Russian tubes?


----------



## bcowen

emorrison33 said:


> I put in a Genalex Gold Lion E88CC/6922 gold pin in the Vali 2 this morning.  I haven't used it in months because I thought it was too bright.  It's still bright to me, but it seems like it has more width than before.  Do tubes "age" like wine? LOL  No seriously, do you think age effects these tubes?  I mean most of us look for NOS tubes, some made in the 50's and 60's.  Other then internal components possibly degrading over time from sitting around (temp, humidity changes, etc.), anyone notice a tube sounding better after sitting for awhile? Or is this just in my head....Also, are we supposed to be boycotting Russian tubes?


I've never heard any reliable difference in a tube that's just sat around for a while myself.  The allure of NOS tubes isn't _because_ of their age in and of itself, it's because of the construction, methods, and materials used back when they were made.  

Maybe no need to have a deliberate boycott of Russian tubes right now as it's not like you're going to get anything shipped or delivered anyway.    .


----------



## InvisibleInk

emorrison33 said:


> are we supposed to be boycotting Russian tubes?


I guess we should start a run on tubes. I love my electro-harmonix tube!


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> It's really hard to tell from his photos what the plate style is.  I have 2 different vintages, with the ones on the left below having a 2-piece plate (per triode) and the ones on the right having a more traditional box plate.  Both have O getters, although the ones on the left (older) are smaller than the newer ones.  I prefer the older, 2-piece plate version, but it's not a huge difference.  Both sound quite good in the Vali 2.
> 
> As to the seller, he doesn't have a lot of feedback, and part of what he does have isn't very glowing.  I paid just over $30 per pair for these plus $7 or so shipping about a year ago, so you'd be paying almost as much in total for 1 tube.  If it were me, I'd wait for a better deal...I see these pop up from time to time for pretty reasonable prices.


Any idea what vintage these tubes are? I managed to get one like the tube on the right - all they had, and the thing literally looks like it just came off the assembly line. Tube and box.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Any idea what vintage these tubes are? I managed to get one like the tube on the right - all they had, and the thing literally looks like it just came off the assembly line. Tube and box.


Don't know off-hand. There are some codes etched in the glass...I'll see if I can decipher them.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Don't know off-hand. There are some codes etched in the glass...I'll see if I can decipher them.


Just curious. I was taken aback by exactly how new this NIB actually was.
Inital impressions… much beefier sounding than the Matsu I have. Doesn't have the scary hissing of the stock tube (pretty sure the tube is bad - I did buy the amp 2nd hand)


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Just curious. I was taken aback by exactly how new this NIB actually was.
> Inital impressions… much beefier sounding than the Matsu I have. Doesn't have the scary hissing of the stock tube (pretty sure the tube is bad - I did buy the amp 2nd hand)


Nothing is ever easy.  The code on one of the old(er) tubes is 2FG41239 as best I can tell. The first digits on the other one are not legible, only the same '1239' at the end. On the new(er) ones, both have a code of 2D0(or O)1239.  One thing all 4 have in common is the '1239' at the end. But the digits before that don't match up with a couple sites I looked at, and the 1239 (or maybe just 239?) which should signify the tube type isn't listed. Neither site shows that Brimar even made a 6BQ7A.  Of course there's no guarantee that what they're showing is all inclusive (or even right), but likely right-er than me.    So the short answer is I have no clue what the dates are (without spending some more time researching), and the slightly longer answer is it's entirely possible Brimar didn't make these.  Question then is who did.  I don't think they're Russian as one site suggested because the getter shape is very un-Russian, but I'm not sure where to look next.  

Note that the boxes on the newer ones I have also look brand new. Some _very_ slight yellowing on the blank white side, but the rest of the box is pristine.  The older boxes have some obvious age, not only in appearance but in the feel and condition of the cardboard.

https://tubemaze.info/brimar-tubes-date-codes/

https://mullard.org/blogs/news/brim...TYPE & DATE CODES - HOW,  1977  17 more rows


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Nothing is ever easy.  The code on one of the old(er) tubes is 2FG41239 as best I can tell. The first digits on the other one are not legible, only the same '1239' at the end. On the new(er) ones, both have a code of 2D0(or O)1239.  One thing all 4 have in common is the '1239' at the end. But the digits before that don't match up with a couple sites I looked at, and the 1239 (or maybe just 239?) which should signify the tube type isn't listed. Neither site shows that Brimar even made a 6BQ7A.  Of course there's no guarantee that what they're showing is all inclusive (or even right), but likely right-er than me.    So the short answer is I have no clue what the dates are (without spending some more time researching), and the slightly longer answer is it's entirely possible Brimar didn't make these.  Question then is who did.  I don't think they're Russian as one site suggested because the getter shape is very un-Russian, but I'm not sure where to look next.
> 
> Note that the boxes on the newer ones I have also look brand new. Some _very_ slight yellowing on the blank white side, but the rest of the box is pristine.  The older boxes have some obvious age, not only in appearance but in the feel and condition of the cardboard.
> 
> ...


I guess the good news is there's no etched dots, so it's probably isn't a rebranded GE.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I guess the good news is there's no etched dots, so it's probably isn't a rebranded GE.


LOL!  I'm suspecting if they weren't made by Brimar it's another European manufacturer.  I've seen that Mazda (France) did a good bit of OEM'ing for Brimar on some other tube types, but don't have any comparative samples to look at.  I don't think they're Mullard or Philips due to the bottle configuration, but there's lots of others to look at.


----------



## emorrison33

Mike Matthews owner of Electro Harmonix says no more Russian vacuum tubes in 2022:
https://www.gearnews.com/mike-matth...ix-says-no-more-russian-vacuum-tubes-in-2022/


----------



## Willy 2 Streams

emorrison33 said:


> Mike Matthews owner of Electro Harmonix says no more Russian vacuum tubes in 2022:
> https://www.gearnews.com/mike-matth...ix-says-no-more-russian-vacuum-tubes-in-2022/


This bodes VERY ILL for us! I just went over to Tube Depot. 6DJ8 tubes I bought just a few weeks back are suddenly 'not for sale'. Same for 12AX7's, or anything else made in Russia. NOS are _already_ thru the roof....what's a tubeoholic to do?


----------



## bcowen

Willy 2 Streams said:


> This bodes VERY ILL for us! I just went over to Tube Depot. 6DJ8 tubes I bought just a few weeks back are suddenly 'not for sale'. Same for 12AX7's, or anything else made in Russia. NOS are _already_ thru the roof....what's a tubeoholic to do?


Pray?    

Seriously, you can look for compatible alternates.  6BQ7A plugs right in and has operating points nearly identical to the 6BZ7.  Russian 6N1P's will also plug right in, and while safe to use in the Vali 2 have different operating points so you might get a different sound.  6CG7 is a 9-pin version of the 6SN7...plugs right onto the Vali 2 as well.  Then there's adapters that open up a whole new universe of tubes to pick from.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Pray?
> 
> Seriously, you can look for compatible alternates.  6BQ7A plugs right in and has operating points nearly identical to the 6BZ7.  Russian 6N1P's will also plug right in, and while safe to use in the Vali 2 have different operating points so you might get a different sound.  6CG7 is a 9-pin version of the 6SN7...plugs right onto the Vali 2 as well.  Then there's adapters that open up a whole new universe of tubes to pick from.


…and if you can get a 7N7 => 6SN7 adapter with a good 7N7 tube, you might even have a “Frankie Vali” (minus Three Tops)…🤔🤣


----------



## Willy 2 Streams (Mar 14, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Pray?
> 
> Seriously, you can look for compatible alternates.  6BQ7A plugs right in and has operating points nearly identical to the 6BZ7.  Russian 6N1P's will also plug right in, and while safe to use in the Vali 2 have different operating points so you might get a different sound.  6CG7 is a 9-pin version of the 6SN7...plugs right onto the Vali 2 as well.  Then there's adapters that open up a whole new universe of tubes to pick from.


...and with the exception of the Sylvania 5670/adapter combo (which I just got, and am waiting to evaluate), everything you just mentioned are all made in RUSSIA. Still, as you say, there are still NOS tubes available...for now. Watch 'em all evaporate, or climb to ridiculous prices!


----------



## bcowen (Mar 14, 2022)

Willy 2 Streams said:


> ...and with the exception of the Sylvania 5670/adapter combo (which I just got, and am waiting to evaluate), everything you just mentioned are all made in RUSSIA.


The only Russian-made tube I mentioned was the 6N1P, and there are _lots_ of those available on Ebay from sellers outside of Russia.   Sorry for trying to help.


----------



## Willy 2 Streams

bcowen said:


> The only Russian-made tube I mentioned was the 6N1P, and there are _lots_ of those available on Ebay from sellers outside of Russia.   Sorry for trying to help.


No problem, thanks! Didn't mean to sound snarky to you, it's getting to be mating season for _Procyon Lotor._


----------



## sp79

After listening to my Vali 2 for a few months with the stock 6BQ7, nice but a bit murky.  An in-law gives me a few Russian 6922's to try, one got frosty inside the other was better, but still not "it".  A 6CG7 must be "it", the new hotness, and it's better....but, uhmm, yea. Almost.  
Settling in with a Zenith branded Tungsol 6SN7, oh yeah this is gonna work out just fine - thanks to the fine reviews in this thread.
Now I need a good DAC and some closed back headphones (some people are TV...)


----------



## Sheep3000

So, figured I'd post here, as I bought a schiit vali 2+ off of canuck audio mart that comes paired with the stock tube and a jj e88cc tube. Hoping it pairs well with my hd800! It comes in in a few days.


----------



## Pondoro

Sheep3000 said:


> So, figured I'd post here, as I bought a schiit vali 2+ off of canuck audio mart that comes paired with the stock tube and a jj e88cc tube. Hoping it pairs well with my hd800! It comes in in a few days.


I think you'll love it. I swapped my original tube for an EH e88cc. It was an improvement but I was very happy with the original tube as well.


----------



## inmytaxi (Apr 18, 2022)

Mullard 84 for ten bux and post on the bays. Adapter is like five and post from a different vendor.

Phillips 84 seems inferior but early days. Valvo incoming. Both under ten a unit.

We're going to be fine.


----------



## Mr Trev

inmytaxi said:


> Mullard 84 for ten bux and post on the bays. Adapter is like five and post from a different vendor.
> 
> Phillips 84 seems inferior but early days. Valvo incoming. Both under ten a unit.
> 
> We're going to be fine.


84? Care to elaborate


----------



## inmytaxi

Mr Trev said:


> 84? Care to elaborate


I don't like adding to much fuel to tube searches.  You can figure out the first three letters ecc?


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> 84? Care to elaborate


84 Lumber 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Mr Trev

inmytaxi said:


> I don't like adding to much fuel to tube searches.  You can figure out the first three letters ecc?


That's what I figured, but you never know. Somebody out there might have figured a way to use EL84s(in all seriousness, it'd be freakin awesome if it was possible)


----------



## inmytaxi

Mr Trev said:


> That's what I figured, but you never know. Somebody out there might have figured a way to use EL84s(in all seriousness, it'd be freakin awesome if it was possible)


Oh, you know, I didn't think of that. No, I just think these are great deal for such a low price.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> That's what I figured, but you never know. Somebody out there might have figured a way to use EL84s(in all seriousness, it'd be freakin awesome if it was possible)


That _would_ be cool as I have a bunch of them. Except that it draws 750 milliamps on the heater and since it's a single _pentode_ (yuck) you'd need two, so 1.5 amps on the heater windings. Probably a wee bit more than the Vali 2 could stomach.


----------



## Sheep3000

Is the electro harmonix 6922 a good tube for the hd800?


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> That _would_ be cool as I have a bunch of them. Except that it draws 750 milliamps on the heater and since it's a single _pentode_ (yuck) you'd need two, so 1.5 amps on the heater windings. Probably a wee bit more than the Vali 2 could stomach.


Pentode, yes. Triode strapped? Yes please.
The 1.5a heater draw would probably turn the V2 into a puddle of molten aluminum and burnt silicon, like you mentioned - I admit I'm not familiar with the specs of the EL84


----------



## inmytaxi

Mr Trev said:


> Pentode, yes. Triode strapped? Yes please.
> The 1.5a heater draw would probably turn the V2 into a puddle of molten aluminum and burnt silicon, like you mentioned - I admit I'm not familiar with the specs of the EL84


I just guess those southern boys don't like a little BDSM with their tube love from time to time.


----------



## emorrison33

Sheep3000 said:


> Is the electro harmonix 6922 a good tube for the hd800?


I don't have the HD800, but I have the EH 6922.  I find it a little harsh in the top end, on some recordings.  But other than that it's not a bad tube to have.  I purchased a Psvane UK-6SN7 (have an adapter) awhile back, and fell in love with it.  So my other tubes don't get much use anymore.


----------



## Sheep3000

emorrison33 said:


> I don't have the HD800, but I have the EH 6922.  I find it a little harsh in the top end, on some recordings.  But other than that it's not a bad tube to have.  I purchased a Psvane UK-6SN7 (have an adapter) awhile back, and fell in love with it.  So my other tubes don't get much use anymore.


Yeah.. harsh on the top end wouldn't be good for the hd800. I'll stick with the e88cc JJ tube I have with it for now.


----------



## emorrison33

Sheep3000 said:


> Yeah.. harsh on the top end wouldn't be good for the hd800. I'll stick with the e88cc JJ tube I have with it for now.


I have the JJ too.  I think it's the better tube overall.  From what I read about the HD800, I think it's your better choice anyway.


----------



## inmytaxi

Sheep3000 said:


> Is the electro harmonix 6922 a good tube for the hd800?


Haven't heard it.  Gold Lion is nice but it's gone up in price from the 50 I got it for.


Sheep3000 said:


> Yeah.. harsh on the top end wouldn't be good for the hd800. I'll stick with the e88cc JJ tube I have with it for now.


Mullard on ebay it's an letters are: ECC number is: 84, ten bux. Adapter is 5 bux. The postman rings twice and arrive in 2/3 weeks.  Nice open sound, will tame the treble there.


----------



## Mr Trev

inmytaxi said:


> Haven't heard it.  Gold Lion is nice but it's gone up in price from the 50 I got it for.
> 
> Mullard on ebay it's an letters are: ECC number is: 84, ten bux. Adapter is 5 bux. The postman rings twice and arrive in 2/3 weeks.  Nice open sound, will tame the treble there.


I assume the adapter is the typical eBay offering from China? Or do you have a domestic source?


----------



## Pondoro

I replaced the original Vali 2+ tube with an EH 6922. The improvement was subtle but definitely there. Upper bass became clearer.


----------



## Pondoro

So I ordered a 9 pin socket saver and a 9 pin to 6SN7 adapter. My email states that they will be delivered soon. I plan to install a vintage 6SN7 in my Vali 2+. This is a new thing for me so I am just checking, is that all I have to do? Just plug and play? Stop me if I’m about to blow up the neighborhood. 😊


----------



## tafens

Pondoro said:


> So I ordered a 9 pin socket saver and a 9 pin to 6SN7 adapter. My email states that they will be delivered soon. I plan to install a vintage 6SN7 in my Vali 2+. This is a new thing for me so I am just checking, is that all I have to do? Just plug and play? Stop me if I’m about to blow up the neighborhood. 😊


Yep, plug and play. I have done exactly the same with my Vali2+; riser+adapter+6SN7, works great.


----------



## emorrison33

Pondoro said:


> So I ordered a 9 pin socket saver and a 9 pin to 6SN7 adapter. My email states that they will be delivered soon. I plan to install a vintage 6SN7 in my Vali 2+. This is a new thing for me so I am just checking, is that all I have to do? Just plug and play? Stop me if I’m about to blow up the neighborhood. 😊


I think you'll enjoy the purchase!  I prefer the 6SN7 over the 6922 (&variants).  I think in general the 6SN7 have a bigger soundstage and take control of the bass more.  And this is only on a little Vali 2.


----------



## bcowen

Pondoro said:


> So I ordered a 9 pin socket saver and a 9 pin to 6SN7 adapter. My email states that they will be delivered soon. I plan to install a vintage 6SN7 in my Vali 2+. This is a new thing for me so I am just checking, is that all I have to do? Just plug and play? Stop me if I’m about to blow up the neighborhood. 😊


Assuming the 6SN7 adapter is for a 6922 on the top, then yes, plug and play.


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 25, 2022)

.


----------



## HeatFan12 (Apr 30, 2022)

I am late to the party. Always wanted to try a Schiit amp. I have been away from here for a few years. Said why not. Vali 2+ it is. I have many tubes to try in it.
Cheers!!
Only downside my 6SN7 to ECC88 adapter does not fit. I believe my 5687 to ECC88 adapter will fit though.  But still have lots of other tubes to try nevertheless.


***After a few hours with the 6BZ7, I put some G-Cush pads on my RS1i.  Kick-ass little amp.


Westinghouse 6GU7.  Good times! 










RCA 5687 with adapter.  Great sound!


----------



## Pondoro

Pondoro said:


> So I ordered a 9 pin socket saver and a 9 pin to 6SN7 adapter. My email states that they will be delivered soon. I plan to install a vintage 6SN7 in my Vali 2+. This is a new thing for me so I am just checking, is that all I have to do? Just plug and play? Stop me if I’m about to blow up the neighborhood. 😊


My Vali 2+ now sports a vintage Sylvania 6SN7. I had been listening with a new ElectroHarmonix 6922. Initial impressions- The soundstage is wider (slightly) and more solidly defined. Midrange *might* be more forward, I am not sure. In general I like it better.


----------



## Pondoro

A few hours in - the 6SN7 affects kick drums the most. Slightly wider soundstage, more solidly defined soundstage. More solid bass. I have decided that midrange is *not* more forward. Kick drums are improved immensely. I realize that kick drums are electronically messed with both in live shows and in recordings. I have personally struggled to record drums, to me they never sound "live." In the end you usually settle for the recorded drum sounding "good", or "great", but never live. But the 6SN7 in the Vali makes kick drums sound _*better*_ to me.


----------



## Mr Trev

HeatFan12 said:


> I am late to the party. Always wanted to try a Schiit amp. I have been away from here for a few years. Said why not. Vali 2+ it is. I have many tubes to try in it.
> Cheers!!
> Only downside my 6SN7 to ECC88 adapter does not fit. I believe my 5687 to ECC88 adapter will fit though.  But still have lots of other tubes to try nevertheless.
> 
> ...


6GU7 & 5687… new varieties to me.

Question about the 5687 though. According to this site (https://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2020/12/tube-of-month-5687.html) the 5687 needs 900mA on the heaters when running at 6.3v. Isn't that more than the V2 is specced to handle?


----------



## HeatFan12 (May 2, 2022)

Pondoro said:


> My Vali 2+ now sports a vintage Sylvania 6SN7. I had been listening with a new ElectroHarmonix 6922. Initial impressions- The soundstage is wider (slightly) and more solidly defined. Midrange *might* be more forward, I am not sure. In general I like it better.



What 6SN7 adapter are you using?  The one I have does not fit (pictured).

Thanks






Mr Trev said:


> 6GU7 & 5687… new varieties to me.
> 
> Question about the 5687 though. According to this site (https://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2020/12/tube-of-month-5687.html) the 5687 needs 900mA on the heaters when running at 6.3v. Isn't that more than the V2 is specced to handle?




I came across the 5687 years ago with Singlepower amps.  I still use them in my Woo Audio 2 (6922 to 5687 adapter) and DV336SE (6SN7 to 5687 adapter).  Never had any issues.


A little Ultrasone love tonight.  PRO900s and a nice Tung Sol 6BZ8...  Good times!!!


----------



## Pondoro

HeatFan12 said:


> What 6SN7 adapter are you using?  The one I have does not fit (pictured).
> 
> Thanks


I bought my adapter at TubeDepot. I am also using a 9-pin socket saver. Socket saver on the bottom, then the adapter. The adapter alone will not fit.


----------



## HeatFan12

Pondoro said:


> I bought my adapter at TubeDepot. I am also using a 9-pin socket saver. Socket saver on the bottom, then the adapter. The adapter alone will not fit.




Oh ok.  Makes sense.  Thanks Pondoro


----------



## Sheep3000

So for my hd800, I personally prefer the EH 6922 on the Vali 2+ as opposed to the JJ E88CC tube. Makes it warmer slightly and makes the highs slightly less present.


----------



## Pondoro

Sheep3000 said:


> So for my hd800, I personally prefer the EH 6922 on the Vali 2+ as opposed to the JJ E88CC tube. Makes it warmer slightly and makes the highs slightly less present.


I’ve never tried the JJ’s, EH improved upper bass versus the original NOS tube. The 6SN7 made the soundstage and bass improvement over the EH. My 6SN7 is not any “famous” brand, just an old Sylvania.  I’m not planning on seeking out $100 and up tubes to improve a $150 preamp. 

I do love a set of JJ 6V6 tubes that I bought as spares for my two Magnavox power amps.


----------



## Mr Trev

HeatFan12 said:


> What 6SN7 adapter are you using?  The one I have does not fit (pictured).
> 
> Thanks
> 
> ...


6BZ8? Does that mean it's 1 better than the 6BZ7? I swear I'll never understand the alphabet soup naming of tubes.

I also need to apologize to @bcowen. I forgot to put a trigger warning on that link I posted about the 5687.
Sorry, mate


----------



## HeatFan12

Mr Trev said:


> 6BZ8? Does that mean it's 1 better than the 6BZ7? I swear I'll never understand the alphabet soup naming of tubes.
> 
> I also need to apologize to @bcowen. I forgot to put a trigger warning on that link I posted about the 5687.
> Sorry, mate



They are all drop in replacements for various families.  Like cousins, aunts and uncles.  Coming up next some 6BC8 and 6BS8.  We have to enjoy the ride! 

LOL.  bcowen is everywhere.  The tube guru.  We have exchanged chats many times.  Cheers!


----------



## Mr Trev

I got a couple 6BZ7/6BQ7 kicking around, but no 8

I actually did get my order from Ukraine (took 2 mo. to escape the war zone), so I have a Tesla whatevertheirequivalentofa5670is, and a RFT 12AU7 to play with.


----------



## HeatFan12

Mr Trev said:


> I got a couple 6BZ7/6BQ7 kicking around, but no 8
> 
> I actually did get my order from Ukraine (took 2 mo. to escape the war zone), so I have a Tesla whatevertheirequivalentofa5670is, and a RFT 12AU7 to play with.



5670 is equivalent to the 2C51 or 6N3P Chinese tube.  You use it without an adapter on the Vali 2+?  I use the 5670/2C51 in my WA2, but use an adapter with it (2C51 to 6922 adapter).


The little Vali 2+ and Tung Sol 6BZ8 tube spanked my PRO900s for 12 hours with great clarity and tight bass.  Now it's spanking my SR225s in the same fashion.

Cheers!!!


----------



## Mr Trev

HeatFan12 said:


> 5670 is equivalent to the 2C51 or 6N3P Chinese tube.  You use it without an adapter on the Vali 2+?  I use the 5670/2C51 in my WA2, but use an adapter with it (2C51 to 6922 adapter).
> 
> 
> The little Vali 2+ and Tung Sol 6BZ8 tube spanked my PRO900s for 12 hours with great clarity and tight bass.  Now it's spanking my SR225s in the same fashion.
> ...


An adapter is needed. The one you used in your Woo (hah) will work for the Vali
Just double czeched (pun intended)… the Tesla is 6CC42


----------



## bcowen (May 2, 2022)

I love the Vali 2 adapter that @Deyan made for my Vali 2.  One piece, and no socket saver needed.  Mine has a loctal top for a 7N7, but he can make them with octal tops for the 6SN7 too.








.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> 6BZ8? Does that mean it's 1 better than the 6BZ7? I swear I'll never understand the alphabet soup naming of tubes.
> 
> I also need to apologize to @bcowen. I forgot to put a trigger warning on that link I posted about the 5687.
> Sorry, mate


LOL! My eyes feel like they've had boiling nitric acid poured in them. ARRGGHHH!!!! A GE picture would have been much less painful, more like room temperature nitric acid.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> .


Yah. I momentarily forgot about your disdain for ECG


----------



## jonathan c (May 2, 2022)

bcowen said:


>


Phalli 2…The ‘Johnny Holmes’ of tube h/p/a-dom…🤣


----------



## HeatFan12

bcowen said:


> I love the Vali 2 adapter that @Deyan made for my Vali 2.  One piece, and no socket saver needed.  Mine has a loctal top for a 7N7, but he can make them with octal tops for the 6SN7 too.


Yessss! I love the 7N7/7AF7 tubes. But I have too many adapters already


----------



## bcowen

HeatFan12 said:


> Yessss! I love the 7N7/7AF7 tubes. But I have too many adapters already


There's no such thing as too many tubes adapters.


----------



## Mr Trev

HeatFan12 said:


> Yessss! I love the 7N7/7AF7 tubes. But I have too many adapters already


What Bill said.


----------



## HeatFan12

bcowen said:


> There's no such thing as too many tubes adapters.



 Does Deyan still make the 6SN7 adapter for the Vali?


A little Sylvania 6BC8 for Trev tonight.  Great tube.


----------



## jonathan c

HeatFan12 said:


> Does Deyan still make the 6SN7 adapter for the Vali?
> 
> 
> A little Sylvania 6BC8 for Trev tonight.  Great tube.


Why not ‘PM’ @Deyan? He has been most responsive to my inquiries.


----------



## HeatFan12

jonathan c said:


> Why not ‘PM’ @Deyan? He has been most responsive to my inquiries.



Just did.  Thanks


----------



## HeatFan12

More adapters coming.  Thanks!

A little GE 6BS8 and Sundara love on a beautiful 92 degree day in MIA.  Cheers!


----------



## Deyan

HeatFan12 said:


> More adapters coming.  Thanks!
> 
> A little GE 6BS8 and Sundara love on a beautiful 92 degree day in MIA.  Cheers!




Here's one of them.


----------



## HeatFan12

Deyan said:


> Here's one of them.



Thanks!


----------



## Deyan

HeatFan12 said:


> Thanks!


The other one is complete as well.


----------



## HeatFan12

Deyan said:


> The other one is complete as well.



Thank You!


----------



## ScubaMan2017

To my peeps… tube depot have JJ stock for our Vali, Lyr, and Valhalla! (link here).


----------



## Neweymatt

ScubaMan2017 said:


> To my peeps… tube depot have JJ stock for our Vali, Lyr, and Valhalla! (link here).


Nice one.  The JJ E88CC in the Vali2+ is one of my faves so far.


----------



## Pondoro

Neweymatt said:


> Nice one.  The JJ E88CC in the Vali2+ is one of my faves so far.


Never tried the JJ E88CC but I bought a quad of JJ 6V6, as a backup for a Magnavox that was running original Magnavox labeled tubes. The JJ’s sounded great.


----------



## HeatFan12

Back to basics tonight with the Vali.  A nice Tesla ECC88 with SR325x.  Sounding great.  Spankin' the Grados!


----------



## jonathan c

HeatFan12 said:


> Back to basics tonight with the Vali.  A nice Tesla ECC88 with SR325x.  Sounding great.  Spankin' the Grados!


The Gradomeiers:  ‘Thank you, Sir! May I have another…?’ 😜


----------



## HeatFan12

jonathan c said:


> The Gradomeiers:  ‘Thank you, Sir! May I have another…?’ 😜



Lol.  Good times jonathan!


----------



## HeatFan12 (May 10, 2022)

Wanted to have the Vali for several weeks before I put her through the Senns test.  I fitted her with a nice Jan 6CG7.  Let's see if she spanks my bad boys.

Cheers!


----------



## emorrison33

HeatFan12 said:


> Back to basics tonight with the Vali.  A nice Tesla ECC88 with SR325x.  Sounding great.  Spankin' the Grados!


I like that tube myself, with my Grados.  I have no idea what year mine is though, since I bought it awhile back.  Not even sure where I purchased it from.


----------



## HeatFan12

emorrison33 said:


> I like that tube myself, with my Grados.  I have no idea what year mine is though, since I bought it awhile back.  Not even sure where I purchased it from.



Yeah, I like the Tesla tubes.  I purchased a pair of those years ago for my WA2.  My go-to rectifiers in my WA2 is Tesla EZ80s.


----------



## Mr Trev

HeatFan12 said:


> Yeah, I like the Tesla tubes.  I purchased a pair of those years ago for my WA2.  My go-to rectifiers in my WA2 is Tesla EZ80s.


EZ80s? If they ever make a sitcom about my youth, I'm using that for the name


----------



## HeatFan12

Mr Trev said:


> EZ80s? If they ever make a sitcom about my youth, I'm using that for the name





 




Spankin' the Woodied SR225s with the Vali 2+ & a very nice RCA JRC 5670/2C51 tube.

Cheers!!!


----------



## jonathan c

HeatFan12 said:


>


Mr. Trev has a mini what?….🤣🤣


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> Mr. Trev has a mini what?….🤣🤣


Isn't this where I'm suppose to make a "yer mom" joke?


----------



## jonathan c

Your mama is so ugly that she makes this  


look like this


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Your mama is so ugly that she makes this  look like this


LOL!  Rat's Nest meets Playskool.


----------



## jonathan c (May 17, 2022)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Rat's Nest meets Playskool.


…gangs fighting for tube turf…


----------



## HeatFan12

Spankin' the Denons today!


----------



## jonathan c

HeatFan12 said:


> Spankin' the Denons today!


All your headphones must be brats! All they do is get spanked! …. Send them to the Army!🤣🤣


----------



## HeatFan12

jonathan c said:


> All your headphones must be brats! All they do is get spanked! …. Send them to the Army!🤣🤣



 Spankin' headphones is fun J.


----------



## jonathan c

HeatFan12 said:


> Spankin' headphones is fun J.


More like THRASHER #2 !!   I guess that your household goes by ‘Spanky & My Gang’ 🤪


----------



## HeatFan12

jonathan c said:


> More like THRASHER #2 !!   I guess that your household goes by ‘Spanky & My Gang’ 🤪




Good Times!!!


----------



## HeatFan12

jonathan c said:


> More like THRASHER #2 !!   I guess that your household goes by ‘Spanky & My Gang’ 🤪




Where you at J?!?

Thrasher #2 spankin' tonight sir.  

Old school Ultrasone HFI-700 (Dual-Entry, Black Dragon cable) and HM5 pads.  Being spanked by the Audio-GD FUN (with OPA SUN ) and iPod Video 5.5G as source (all lossless, of course. lol)

Tomorrow the Vali 2+ will spank the 'Sones accordingly too.  Cheers!!!


----------



## jonathan c

HeatFan12 said:


> Where you at J?!?
> 
> Thrasher #2 spankin' tonight sir.
> 
> ...


With that lineup, the Ultrasone will be wailing in agony & delight 😫🥲…..I am in NC (for youngest’s college graduation)….I have the bcowen detector set at 11.0 on a 10.0 dial 🤣…


----------



## HeatFan12

jonathan c said:


> With that lineup, the Ultrasone will be wailing in agony & delight 😫🥲…..I am in NC (for youngest’s college graduation)….I have the bcowen detector set at 11.0 on a 10.0 dial 🤣…



Very nice!  Congratz!  Enjoy!


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> With that lineup, the Ultrasone will be wailing in agony & delight 😫🥲…..I am in NC (for youngest’s college graduation)….I have the bcowen detector set at 11.0 on a 10.0 dial 🤣…


I just got home.  I'm gonna grab something to eat and then come looking for you.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I just got home.  I'm gonna grab something to eat and then come looking for you.


I’ll be waiting…with GE boom box, Marilyn Manson CDs, & remote control…😈


----------



## HeatFan12

Spankin' Time!!!

Fitted her with a lovely Tung Sol 6BK7B and she is spankin' the HD650s quite nicely.

Now that I have had the Vali 2+ for a little while, it was time to move her into her final destination spot.  She is now a member of my old school computer table setup.

Cheers!!


----------



## sp79

I've been trying out a new set of closed back headphones using an EH6cg7, soundstage is OK, detail is good, voices are fine.
Plugged in my Zenith/Tungsol 6sn7, listened to the same set of recordings, wow, just wow. Soundstage opens up, details appear, voices are full, a much better overall sense of presence.  I really like this tube.


----------



## hbmorrison

I am very late to the tube rolling party because for the most part I have been satisfied with the tube on my Vali 2. However, recently I have felt that my Focal Clears have been sounding a bit boring, for want of a better word, compared to how they sound on other solid state equipment. I swapped in an Electro-Harmonix 6922 years ago and I must have been satisfied at the time? I didn't want to break the bank so I grabbed a National-Matsushitu 7DJ8 and a Philips ECC88 from Watford Tubes to try out.

I went with the National first. I only let it burn in for a few hours but I figured I would give it a listen just to see how it was doing. Suffice to say the little beast is still forward and frizzy, which I understand is to be expected from new tubes as stuff gets deposited on other stuff. Even so, I can hear a lot more width in the sound stage on the Clears and a *lot* more extension in the bass. As I am writing this, the National has had another five hours of burn in and it is just a little more mellow. Lovely warmth in the lower mids and female vocals are a little more calm than earlier.

There is a little channel mismatch at low volumes so I have switched the Vali 2 to low gain - usually I run it in high gain. Aside from that, I am really impressed with this little tube. My Clears are already sounding much more fun and engaging. It will be interesting to see what happens to the low mids over time. What I am really hoping for is that there will also be air at the top end once the frizzy forwardness burns off.

I will probably give the National a few weeks before I swap in the Philips. But even now I am thinking about what I could be doing with the Mjolnir 2 downstairs...


----------



## HeatFan12

Looking great Hannah 

Is that an adapter or socket saver?  The 7DJ8's heater is 7 but many say it can be dropped in for a 6DJ8.


----------



## Mr Trev

HeatFan12 said:


> Looking great Hannah
> 
> Is that an adapter or socket saver?  The 7DJ8's heater is 7 but many say it can be dropped in for a 6DJ8.


Indeed it can. I have the same 7dj8. I'd say it's one of my better "native" tubes


----------



## hbmorrison

HeatFan12 said:


> Looking great Hannah
> 
> Is that an adapter or socket saver?  The 7DJ8's heater is 7 but many say it can be dropped in for a 6DJ8.



It's just a socket saver. Not strictly needed on the Vali 2 but I thought it would be nice to see more of the tube doing its thing.


----------



## Pondoro

Mr Trev said:


> Indeed it can. I have the same 7dj8. I'd say it's one of my better "native" tubes


So now I can look for 7DJ8 tubes to try!


----------



## jonathan c

hannahjherself said:


> It's just a socket saver. Not strictly needed on the Vali 2 but I thought it would be nice to see more of the tube doing its thing.


And the Vali 2 amp body stays a little cooler.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> And the Vali 2 amp body stays a little cooler.


This is the best way to keep it the coolest.  🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> This is the best way to keep it the coolest.  🤣


A skyscraper in ‘Abu Dvali’…? 🤦🏻


----------



## HeatFan12

What are we spanking tonight???

The Sundara of course.  A lovely Sylvania 6GU7.

Cheers!


----------



## Pondoro

HeatFan12 said:


> What are we spanking tonight???
> 
> The Sundara of course.  A lovely Sylvania 6GU7.
> 
> Cheers!


Speaking of spanking headphone - I am not a headphone guy. I listen to a Vali 2+, a Lyr 3 or a Saga + through either a tube power amp and Klipsch Heresy speakers, or through small Klipsch powered speakers. I swap them back and forth from time to time. But that headphone jack is there, I think maybe I should try headphones. I have some $60 Audio Technica headphones that I use to record multitrack music (me singing or playing along with previously recorded tracks.) Quality on recording headphones is not an issue, I just need to hear the recorded track so that I can sing or play along. What is the cost of an "entry level" set of high fidelity headphones meant for musical listening? I know that is controversial, I know some will say that entry price is $100, $1000, $infinity. I am sure there are threads that beat this question to death  - links would be great! My goal would be that the new headphones be noticeably superior to the $60 AT's, but I do not want to spend more that the Schiit Saga, because this is an experiment. At the end of the experiment I will still be a speaker guy.


----------



## Tensen

I’m no expert but I do love my Grado 325x’s with the Vali 2+ and some rca clear top 6cg7s.  If you like the Klipsch sound Grados might be just up your alley.


----------



## HeatFan12

@Pondoro,

I spank speakers with tubes too.  Not just headphones.  Everything gets spanked at the house with tubes. 

If  your budget is $100, I agree with Tensen with Grados.  The 325s are a bit above that budget but an SR80x should fit the bill nicely for 125 beans.

Cheers!


----------



## Tensen

Anyone have any experience with 12au7 GE triple mica 1950’s in the Vali 2+.  I know bcowen has some dislike for GEs but I’ve found these to be incredibly musical.  With an adapter of course.


----------



## Pondoro

Tensen said:


> Anyone have any experience with 12au7 GE triple mica 1950’s in the Vali 2+.  I know bcowen has some dislike for GEs but I’ve found these to be incredibly musical.  With an adapter of course.


How do you adapt them? Do you run them at 6 volts or supply 12 somehow?


----------



## jonathan c (Jun 2, 2022)

An adapter such as the Pulse Tube Store 12Axx —> ECC88 will allow for the use of a 12AU7 tube in a socket designed for a 6922 / 6DJ8 tube. The adapter ‘rewires’ the 12-volt 12AU7 to make it a 6-volt tube such as the 6922.


----------



## Tensen (Jun 2, 2022)

12au7 can run at either 6 or 12v. 



> The 12AU7 is a miniature medium-mu twin triode. This tube finds use as a phase-inverter/splitter in push-pull amplifier circuits in ac/dc radio equipment and in many diversified applications such as multivibrators or oscillators in industrial control devices. The tube is quite pokey and sections can even be connected in parallel to create a power amp with enough current to drive a pair of headphones or even a guitar speaker. A centre tapped heater permits operation of the tube from a 6.3V or a 12.6V heater supply. The tube requires a noval nine-contact socket and may be mounted in any position.


----------



## ledzep

Rather than trawling 400 pages, can anyone confirm the Treasures CV181-Z with the vali 2, i guess it needs a bit more juice than the standard 6SN7


----------



## InvisibleInk

Tube Depot is having a sale today. For example, I have my eye on this for my Schiit Vali 2:

https://tubedepot.com/products/amperex-6922-pq-usa-gold-pin


----------



## tafens

ledzep said:


> Rather than trawling 400 pages, can anyone confirm the Treasures CV181-Z with the vali 2, i guess it needs a bit more juice than the standard 6SN7


The CV181-Z is a 6SN7 type tube despite its name. They probably used the CV181 name because of some marketing purposes because it has the same heater voltage and current as a regular 6SN7 (6.3V/0.6A) while the original CV181 does not (it pulls 0.95A).

I’m currently using a 6SN7 in my Vali2+ with no problems.

Here are some specs on the CV181-Z (scroll down the page below the images): https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en...81-z-vacuum-tube-pair-6sn7-6n8p-premium-p-629


----------



## ledzep

tafens said:


> The CV181-Z is a 6SN7 type tube despite its name. They probably used the CV181 name because of some marketing purposes because it has the same heater voltage and current as a regular 6SN7 (6.3V/0.6A) while the original CV181 does not (it pulls 0.95A).
> 
> I’m currently using a 6SN7 in my Vali2+ with no problems.
> 
> Here are some specs on the CV181-Z (scroll down the page below the images): https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en...81-z-vacuum-tube-pair-6sn7-6n8p-premium-p-629


Thanks for that, got hold of vali 2 at a bargain price due to top cover being scratched so just sanded it down and resprayed it satin black with a matching dial, so now just looking at some half decent tubes to have a roll with, keeping the budget under £100 per tube so things don't get out of control ( we all know how easy that is ) want to sample the vali for a bit before climbing the ladder higher.


----------



## Neweymatt

ledzep said:


> Thanks for that, got hold of vali 2 at a bargain price due to top cover being scratched so just sanded it down and resprayed it satin black with a matching dial, so now just looking at some half decent tubes to have a roll with, keeping the budget under £100 per tube so things don't get out of control ( we all know how easy that is ) want to sample the vali for a bit before climbing the ladder higher.


That black with black volume pot looks fantastic!!

If you're in the UK ( or even if you're not ) Billington have a huge selection to choose from, and are great to deal with:
https://web211.secure-secure.co.uk/tube-and-valve-electronics.co.uk/default2.asp


----------



## Pondoro

ledzep said:


> Thanks for that, got hold of vali 2 at a bargain price due to top cover being scratched so just sanded it down and resprayed it satin black with a matching dial, so now just looking at some half decent tubes to have a roll with, keeping the budget under £100 per tube so things don't get out of control ( we all know how easy that is ) want to sample the vali for a bit before climbing the ladder higher.


A 6SN7 with an adapter improved my Vali noticeably.


----------



## ledzep

Neweymatt said:


> That black with black volume pot looks fantastic!!
> 
> If you're in the UK ( or even if you're not ) Billington have a huge selection to choose from, and are great to deal with:
> https://web211.secure-secure.co.uk/tube-and-valve-electronics.co.uk/default2.asp


Yeah I'm in the UK, thanks will check them out.


----------



## ledzep

Pondoro said:


> A 6SN7 with an adapter improved my Vali noticeably.


Adaptor ordered 👍


----------



## ledzep

Does anyone know what the forward voltage is on the led ( before I take the lid off) thinking of swapping out for a orange one.


----------



## Pondoro

ledzep said:


> Adaptor ordered 👍


You need a tube saver for the smaller tube socket, that extends the adapter above the top of the case. So, from the bottom: Vali socket on the board, then tube saver, then adapter, then the 6SN7 tube.


----------



## ledzep

Pondoro said:


> You need a tube saver for the smaller tube socket, that extends the adapter above the top of the case. So, from the bottom: Vali socket on the board, then tube saver, then adapter, then the 6SN7 tube.


Already got some of those, although I'm still not sure whether to machine out a slightly bigger hole.


----------



## Mr Trev

ledzep said:


> Already got some of those, although I'm still not sure whether to machine out a slightly bigger hole.


If that's a risk you're willing to take, I'd recommend it. In my setup, I've found stacking adapters tend to be noise prone. Or drop @Deyan a PM. He's made myself and others custom adapters that can fit the Vali2 opening without needing a socket saver (there's a few pics here showing them)


----------



## ledzep

Mr Trev said:


> If that's a risk you're willing to take, I'd recommend it. In my setup, I've found stacking adapters tend to be noise prone. Or drop @Deyan a PM. He's made myself and others custom adapters that can fit the Vali2 opening without needing a socket saver (there's a few pics here showing them)


No risk I have a machine shop at my disposal, but I'll drop Deyan a pm see if he can knock us one up, thanks for the advice 👍


----------



## bochawa

ledzep said:


> No risk I have a machine shop at my disposal, but I'll drop Deyan a pm see if he can knock us one up, thanks for the advice 👍


I recommend the bigger hole - it makes it so much easier to plug 6SN7 and 7N7 adapters straight into the socket.  I did mine with a dremel tool and a lot of patience.


----------



## ledzep

Led replaced with a orange one and moved back slightly towards tube and away from front panel hole, adds just a bit more glow to base, picture isn't a really good example as it's still light over here in UK but we will see what it looks like at dusk 👍 at least it's better than the strobe light look.


----------



## Mr Trev (Jul 21, 2022)

ledzep said:


> No risk I have a machine shop at my disposal, but I'll drop Deyan a pm see if he can knock us one up, thanks for the advice 👍


I would've done the same for mine except for the fact that I'd still like to have an intact original lid on hand and Schiit doesn't sell parts. Thought about getting one of the local shops to fab a custom one for me, but apathy kicked in. It'd be nice to use a low profile adapter like the ones G1217 makes - I have an ECC40 adapter like that


----------



## ledzep

Mr Trev said:


> I would've done the same for mine except for the fact that I'd still like to have an intact original lid on hand and Schiit doesn't sell parts. Thought about getting one of the local shops to fab a custom one for me, but apathy kicked in. It'd be nice to use a low profile adapter like the ones G1217 makes - I have an ECC40 adapter like that


Yeah I'm in a quandary about the cover do I cut a bigger circle or get a long adaptor, decisions decisions 🤣


----------



## ledzep

When one more track turns into 3 albums and another late night 🤣


----------



## bcowen

ledzep said:


> Yeah I'm in a quandary about the cover do I cut a bigger circle or get a long adaptor, decisions decisions 🤣


This is one of @Deyan 's Vali 2 adapters, although mine has a loctal socket on top instead of an octal.


----------



## ledzep

Stripped down ready to go


----------



## ledzep (Jul 22, 2022)

10 mins later .....

Job done and ready to respray 👍


----------



## jonathan c

ledzep said:


> 10 mins later .....
> 
> Job done and ready to respray 👍


…some quandary !! 😉


----------



## Mr Trev

ledzep said:


> 10 mins later .....
> 
> Job done and ready to respray 👍


My plan if I got a custom top was to have it look kind like the Valhalla 2 - large meshbacked cutout, with the larger opening. Basically trying to avoid having the cutoff cooling holes, but I'm funny that way.


----------



## ledzep

jonathan c said:


> …some quandary !! 😉


Well I thought I've already got a decent adaptor so why buy another when I can cut out a bit of lid and save some cash and I prefer it to sit a bit more flush to the PCB.  Adaptor was one of those brass ones so I've sprayed that black to match the amp. I don't expect to stay too long with the magni 3+  / vali 2 the upper echelons of schiit are calling out to me already, got my eye on a Magnius and Valhalla. 👍


----------



## ledzep

Mr Trev said:


> My plan if I got a custom top was to have it look kind like the Valhalla 2 - large meshbacked cutout, with the larger opening. Basically trying to avoid having the cutoff cooling holes, but I'm funny that way.


Sounds like a good idea with the black mesh


----------



## ledzep

Rebuilt and looking excellent 👍


----------



## bcowen

ledzep said:


> Well I thought I've already got a decent adaptor so why buy another when I can cut out a bit of lid and save some cash and I prefer it to sit a bit more flush to the PCB.  Adaptor was one of those brass ones so I've sprayed that black to match the amp. I don't expect to stay too long with the magni 3+  / vali 2 the upper echelons of schiit are calling out to me already, got my eye on a Magnius and Valhalla. 👍


Just get one of these and you'll be fine.   🤣


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Just get one of these and you'll be fine.   🤣


Only 10 tubes? Meh.
So now I guess you're going to have to dive back into some planars. Make that thing earn it's keep


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Only 10 tubes? Meh.
> So now I guess you're going to have to dive back into some planars. Make that thing earn it's keep


Yeah, I know.  What was I thinking?  I don't usually even consider something a tube amp unless it has at least 20 tubes.  Per channel.  

Makes my HE-4XX's sound really good.  An $1800 amp with an $80 pair of headphones makes sense, right?   🤣


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I know. What was I thinking? I don't usually even consider something a tube amp unless it has at least 20 tubes. Per channel.


That’s more like it. Being just a beginner and amateur myself, I’m not there yet - but I’m moving up quickly from just 1 tube - one half per channel - to ten 



bcowen said:


> Makes my HE-4XX's sound really good. An $1800 amp with an $80 pair of headphones makes sense, right? 🤣


What? Not fair, I paid $200 for my HE-4XX directly from Drop.


----------



## bcowen

tafens said:


> That’s more like it. Being just a beginner and amateur myself, I’m not there yet - but I’m moving up quickly from just 1 tube - one half per channel - to ten
> 
> 
> What? Not fair, I paid $200 for my HE-4XX directly from Drop.


Well duh on me.  Not sure why I had $80 stuck in my head...went back and looked and I paid $120 for them.  Senility, I suppose.  IIRC (which I probably don't ) they had them on sale at the time.


----------



## ledzep

Well you just wait until I finish my AliExpress DIY kit I bought for $20 
20 tubes .... A mere toy !


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Just get one of these and you'll be fine.   🤣


Get two - wire each for mono - one jack / cable per headphone cup 🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

ledzep said:


> Well you just wait until I finish my AliExpress DIY kit I bought for $20
> 20 tubes .... A mere toy !


LOL!


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> Well duh on me.  Not sure why I had $80 stuck in my head...went back and looked and I paid $120 for them.  Senility, I suppose.  IIRC (which I probably don't ) they had them on sale at the time.


That’s a great price! I’m quite happy with them for the price I gave for them too, though.


----------



## tafens

ledzep said:


> Well you just wait until I finish my AliExpress DIY kit I bought for $20
> 20 tubes .... A mere toy !



Only 20? Try 100, now we’re talkin’



(yes, not an amp, but an oscilloscope.. vaguely related in some sense at least )


----------



## adydula

bcowen said:


> Just get one of these and you'll be fine.   🤣


Ha!
Show Off!!


----------



## adydula

Just a sweet little amp....listening this am with a new NOS dac, the Vali 2+ and ADX 5000's a wonderful listen.


----------



## Mr Trev (Jul 23, 2022)

adydula said:


> Just a sweet little amp....listening this am with a new NOS dac, the Vali 2+ and ADX 5000's a wonderful listen.


That's another design that'd be perfect for case mods. Enlarge the tube hole (sorry for the extreme tech speak this early in the morning) enough to remove the inner ring of cooling holes. Should be big enough to fit an octal adapter?
And what's this new NOS DAC your speaking about?

personal aside: we/they really need to come up with a better name/description for these DACs. In my world NOS has always meant New Old Stock. Doesn't matter if it's tubes or car parts…


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I know.  What was I thinking?  I don't usually even consider something a tube amp unless it has at least 20 tubes.  Per channel.
> 
> Makes my HE-4XX's sound really good.  An $1800 amp with an $80 pair of headphones makes sense, right?   🤣


Makes no sense, but it sounds like Head-Fi so I'll allow it


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> That's another design that'd be perfect for case mods. Enlarge the tube hole (sorry for the extreme tech speak this early in the morning) enough to remove the inner ring of cooling holes. Should be big enough to fit an octal adapter?
> And what's this new NOS DAC your speaking about?
> 
> personal aside: we/they really need to come up with a better name/description for these DACs. In my world NOS has always meant New Old Stock. *Doesn't matter if it's tubes or car parts…*


Except if it's car parts, NOS is short for nitrous oxide.  At least that's how it's labeled on my riding lawnmower...   🤣 🤣


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Except if it's car parts, NOS is short for nitrous oxide.  At least that's how it's labeled on my riding lawnmower...   🤣 🤣


My bad, shoulda specified _classic_ car parts

You should try adding methanol injection to your mower too


----------



## bcowen

adydula said:


> Just a sweet little amp....listening this am with a new NOS dac, the Vali 2+ and ADX 5000's a wonderful listen.


Totally agree.  The Vali 2 is one of the best price/performance deals in all of audio, IMO.  

I've been an audio addict with 2-channel systems for many, many years, but only got into headphones a few years ago.  The Vali 2 was my first HP amp.  When I bought a Lyr 3 a while later I (stupidly) sold the Vali thinking I'd no longer need it.  Missed it so much I went and bought another.  🤣

Killer sound with this Brimar (Footscray plant) CV4033.  Yeah, so it's a $110 tube in a $150 amp.  But I always strive for consistency in being ridiculous.  🤣


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> My bad, shoulda specified _classic_ car parts
> 
> You should try adding methanol injection to your mower too


LOL!  But then what would I drink?  🤣


----------



## ledzep

bcowen said:


> Totally agree.  The Vali 2 is one of the best price/performance deals in all of audio, IMO.
> 
> I've been an audio addict with 2-channel systems for many, many years, but only got into headphones a few years ago.  The Vali 2 was my first HP amp.  When I bought a Lyr 3 a while later I (stupidly) sold the Vali thinking I'd no longer need it.  Missed it so much I went and bought another.  🤣
> 
> Killer sound with this Brimar (Footscray plant) CV4033.  Yeah, so it's a $110 tube in a $150 amp.  But I always strive for consistency in being ridiculous.  🤣


That's a pile of schiit alright 👍


----------



## jonathan c

tafens said:


> Only 20? Try 100, now we’re talkin’
> 
> 
> 
> (yes, not an amp, but an oscilloscope.. vaguely related in some sense at least )



Try ENIAC (Electronic Numerical Integrator And Computer: 1945). Tubes: 17,000+


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Try ENIAC (Electronic Numerical Integrator And Computer: 1945). Tubes: 17,000+


Dang.  Then I'm about 1000 short.  Off to Ebay....

I wonder if using GE tubes will lead to data corruption?  🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Dang.  Then I'm about 1000 short.  Off to Ebay....
> 
> I wonder if using GE tubes will lead to data corruption?  🤣


Actually, since it was completed by 1945, maybe ENIAC _started_ with RCAs, KenRads…before GE bought KR and ####ed it up…🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## tafens

jonathan c said:


> Try ENIAC (Electronic Numerical Integrator And Computer: 1945). Tubes: 17,000+



Well that trumps most, if not all, other things with regard to tube count!   

Now let’s see.. 17000 tubes.. assuming 6.3V/0.6A heaters that comes out to..
about 60kW of heater wattage alone.
Toasty!


----------



## ledzep

tafens said:


> Well that trumps most, if not all, other things with regard to tube count!
> 
> Now let’s see.. 17000 tubes.. assuming 6.3V/0.6A heaters that comes out to..
> about 60kW of heater wattage alone.
> Toasty!


Let's bring out the big guns !


----------



## InvisibleInk

Left is the Amperex Holland ECC88​NOS made in The Netherlands (Holland) in the 1960s
​


----------



## jonathan c

ledzep said:


> Let's bring out the big guns !


Can you imagine the cost of re-tubing via: Bangybang, cartago_delenda_est, menifee, wege_high_tubes? Probably 25% of US Gross Domestic Product! 🇺🇸😳…


----------



## adydula

ledzep said:


> Let's bring out the big guns !


Yeah but it couldnt play "flacs"!!!  
LOL!!


----------



## jonathan c

adydula said:


> Yeah but it couldnt play "flacs"!!!
> LOL!!


just…..intercept & destroy…..😑💥…..


----------



## Neweymatt

bcowen said:


> Totally agree.  The Vali 2 is one of the best price/performance deals in all of audio, IMO.
> 
> I've been an audio addict with 2-channel systems for many, many years, but only got into headphones a few years ago.  The Vali 2 was my first HP amp.  When I bought a Lyr 3 a while later I (stupidly) sold the Vali thinking I'd no longer need it.  Missed it so much I went and bought another.  🤣
> 
> Killer sound with this Brimar (Footscray plant) CV4033.  Yeah, so it's a $110 tube in a $150 amp.  But I always strive for consistency in being ridiculous.  🤣


I’m curious, what differences you perceive between the Vali2 and Lyr3?

Last year I was looking at Lyr3 pretty closely, but decided to get a Vali2+ and Jot2 instead, as they are much newer in their product release lifecycle, whereas the Lyr3 seemed due for a refresh.  With the recent release of Lyr+, I’m thinking of this again…


----------



## bcowen

Neweymatt said:


> I’m curious, what differences you perceive between the Vali2 and Lyr3?
> 
> Last year I was looking at Lyr3 pretty closely, but decided to get a Vali2+ and Jot2 instead, as they are much newer in their product release lifecycle, whereas the Lyr3 seemed due for a refresh.  With the recent release of Lyr+, I’m thinking of this again…


Similar voicing, but Lyr 3 is kinda more of everything.  Bigger soundstage, more dynamic, more punch and impact in the bass, more 'thereness' in the mids, etc to my ears.  It's not like the Vali 2 just falls on its face in comparison, not at all.  Just that the Lyr 3 is it's bigger, more accomplished brother if you will, and it _should_ sound better for 3x+ the price. Some of this can be due to tubes too.


----------



## Pondoro

Neweymatt said:


> I’m curious, what differences you perceive between the Vali2 and Lyr3?
> 
> Last year I was looking at Lyr3 pretty closely, but decided to get a Vali2+ and Jot2 instead, as they are much newer in their product release lifecycle, whereas the Lyr3 seemed due for a refresh.  With the recent release of Lyr+, I’m thinking of this again…


I’ve had a Vali 2 for more than a year, a Saga for several months, a Lyr 3 for two weeks. I love the Vali. The Saga + sounds “bigger” like it has more substance in all the instruments and vocals. The Lyr came with a multibit module and I installed it in the system that had the Vali. My early impression is more of the same, the Lyr seems to make a bigger difference than the Saga. But it has the multibit DAC and I have not yet done a Lyr vs Saga comparison. I don’t test blind or switch directly from one to the other. I listen to entire songs or CDs. I listen for a week or two, but in these cases the difference seemed obvious right away. With an adapter you can run a 6SN7 tube in a Vali, that seems to help my Vali. I have only tried 2 or three different 6SN7’s in the Vali, none costing a lot.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Similar voicing, but Lyr 3 is kinda more of everything.  Bigger soundstage, more dynamic, more punch and impact in the bass, more 'thereness' in the mids, etc to my ears.  It's not like the Vali 2 just falls on its face in comparison, not at all.  Just that the Lyr 3 is it's bigger, more accomplished brother if you will, and it _should_ sound better for 3x+ the price. Some of this can be due to tubes too.


More than ‘some of this’ from tubes - especially if one goes beyond one double-triode 6SN7…🤷🏻‍♂️😄…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> But I always strive for consistency in being ridiculous.  🤣


AND, as Oscar Wilde stated, “nothing succeeds like excess.” 🤣👍


----------



## InvisibleInk

jonathan c said:


> AND, as Oscar Wilde stated, “nothing succeeds like excess.” 🤣👍


The Vali 2 is like the razor, and the tubes are the blades.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> More than ‘some of this’ from tubes - especially if one goes beyond one double-triode 6SN7…🤷🏻‍♂️😄…


'Some' is subjective.  At least somewhat.   🤣


----------



## jonathan c

InvisibleInk said:


> The Vali 2 is like the razor, and the tubes are the blades.


…._a la Gillette_, ‘the best an amp can get’…🤣


----------



## Pondoro

I noticed today that the original 6BZ7 tube draws 400 milliamps of current and a 6SN7 draws 600 milliamps. Lots of you run 6SN7 tubes using adapters, I do as well. Is there any concern about the 50% higher heater current?


----------



## bcowen

Pondoro said:


> I noticed today that the original 6BZ7 tube draws 400 milliamps of current and a 6SN7 draws 600 milliamps. Lots of you run 6SN7 tubes using adapters, I do as well. Is there any concern about the 50% higher heater current?


Nope.


----------



## Pondoro

bcowen said:


> Nope.





bcowen said:


> Nope.


Mine certainly has not burst into flames. Nor tears.


----------



## keenerz

Been a huge lurker on here but I've been falling head first into all these tubes I have quite a sizable stash now. Currently trying out some dual 6JCG and dang these are the truth some of the best sounds.


----------



## ledzep

Pondoro said:


> I noticed today that the original 6BZ7 tube draws 400 milliamps of current and a 6SN7 draws 600 milliamps. Lots of you run 6SN7 tubes using adapters, I do as well. Is there any concern about the 50% higher heater current?


Nope and as you can see my house is still standing 👍


----------



## tafens

Pondoro said:


> I noticed today that the original 6BZ7 tube draws 400 milliamps of current and a 6SN7 draws 600 milliamps. Lots of you run 6SN7 tubes using adapters, I do as well. Is there any concern about the 50% higher heater current?


It’s built to handle it. The 6CG7 is mentioned on the Vali2 page on the website as a tube that you can swap in, and 6CG7 is an electrical equivalent to 6SN7, including its 600 milliamp heater current.


----------



## KoshNaranek

jonathan c said:


> Actually, since it was completed by 1945, maybe ENIAC _started_ with RCAs, KenRads…before GE bought KR and ####ed it up…🤷🏻‍♂️


ENIAC was made at University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. Given that the RCA tube plant was across the river in Camden, NJ, I suspect that all the tubes were RCA due to ease of availability


----------



## bcowen

KoshNaranek said:


> ENIAC was made at University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. Given that the RCA tube plant was across the river in Camden, NJ, I suspect that all the tubes were RCA due to ease of availability


A good thing.  If they had used GE tubes it wouldn't have ever worked and the development of computers would have been substantially impaired.   🤣


----------



## ledzep

@Deyan many thanks for the adaptor 👍
Arrived today, tomight we roll with a classic 12Au7 Brimar !


----------



## Mr Trev

ledzep said:


> @Deyan many thanks for the adaptor 👍
> Arrived today, tomight we roll with a classic 12Au7 Brimar !


Dang, that's a tall-boy!


----------



## Deyan

ledzep said:


> @Deyan many thanks for the adaptor 👍
> Arrived today, tomight we roll with a classic 12Au7 Brimar !


Happy to be of service.


----------



## InvisibleInk




----------



## bcowen

InvisibleInk said:


>


Looks like a Deyan adapter?  Sweet!


----------



## InvisibleInk

bcowen said:


> Looks like a Deyan adapter?  Sweet!


 Correct! Works just as reputed to. The tube is pretty good, too.


----------



## ledzep

InvisibleInk said:


> Correct! Works just as reputed to. The tube is pretty good, too.


What's your take on the EH tube ?


----------



## InvisibleInk

ledzep said:


> What's your take on the EH tube ?



Well, it's still early days, but it, like its 6922 little brother, is a bit on the dry side of tubey, and very detailed. So far it is pretty intimate sounding, rather than having a big-wide sound stage. Imaging is excellent, though. So it goes well with my neutral monitor phones, like my K361 or ER2SE. Planars and Metal music offer an excellent synergy. My Ananda just sounds killer.

This particular tube is dead silent on low gain, but makes a tiny bit of noise on high gain. Not a big deal, but better to buy it from a tube vendor who will test it before sending it out.

I like this big boy. I feel like I am future-proofing my tube purchases a bit in case I move to the very tempting new Lyr+ next year.


----------



## Tensen

Jason just announced Vali Plus - uses 5670s!

which is funny because that’s what’s in mine right now.  I’m tempted to get one in black.


----------



## ledzep

Tensen said:


> Jason just announced Vali Plus - uses 5670s!
> 
> which is funny because that’s what’s in mine right now.  I’m tempted to get one in black.


Vali 2 or just the 2+ ?


----------



## InvisibleInk

ledzep said:


> Vali 2 or just the 2+ ?


Vali 2 ++


----------



## ledzep

InvisibleInk said:


> Vali 2 ++


😪
There again I'm looking to get the new Lyr so it's not all bad and I've emogjh tubes as it is 🤣


----------



## Tensen (Aug 24, 2022)

InvisibleInk said:


> Vali 2 ++


Yes they called it the 2++.  He also announced the lyr3+ should be available for sale next week.   Super tempted!


----------



## Mr Trev

Tensen said:


> Yes they called it the 2++.  He also announced the lyr3+ should be available for sale next week.   Super tempted!


Shoulda called it the Vali 11


----------



## Ripper2860

Put my vote in for calling it the Frankie Vali.


----------



## jonathan c

I say:   Valii


----------



## Pondoro

Vali 2 Far


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Put my vote in for calling it the Frankie Vali.


I already copyrighted the Frankie Vali.    🤣


----------



## Ripper2860

OK, then wise-ass.  Despite it not showing as registered, I'll give you that and offer up the name 'Valiociraptor'©.  'So Good it's Scary!!' ™


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> OK, then wise-ass.  Despite it not showing as registered, I'll give you that and offer up the name 'Valiociraptor'©.  'So Good it's Scary!!' ™


_Valiociraptor_ isn't showing as registered either, so I know you are but what am I?

On second thought, no need to answer that.


----------



## Ripper2860

It's pending.  😜


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> _Valiociraptor_ isn't showing as registered either, so I know you are but what am I?
> 
> On second thought, no need to answer that.


Is ‘Tube Rex’ 🧪🦖 registered?


----------



## Ripper2860

Bow to your sensei!  😀


----------



## ledzep

Valiant Bomber


----------



## HWB3

Geez, why not Vali 3?


----------



## Pondoro

HWB3 said:


> Geez, why not Vali 3?


Jason said the cases were already printed as Vali 2.


----------



## bcowen

HWB3 said:


> Geez, why not Vali 3?


I prefer Valium.


----------



## tafens

HWB3 said:


> Geez, why not Vali 3?





bcowen said:


> I prefer Valium.



Now there’s an exciting name for an amp if ever I heard one! 
(I can totally picture myself dozing off while listening to _that_ )


----------



## Mr Trev

Pondoro said:


> Jason said the cases were already printed as Vali 2.





What was so hard about that?


----------



## Pondoro

Mr Trev said:


> What was so hard about that?


Schiit is the only company on planet earth that would consider this.


----------



## Ripper2860

My final submission.  I kept my best for last...

'Valincia' -- in honor of its ancestorial home.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> My final submission.  I kept my best for last...
> 
> 'Valincia' -- in honor of its ancestorial home.


Yuck.  I'm not even gonna Validate that with a response.  

Ooops.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> What was so hard about that?


How cool!  Can you fit "Western Electric 300B" on the tube while you're at it?  🤣


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 27, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Yuck.  I'm not even gonna Validate that with a response.
> 
> Ooops.



I see what you did there, but the fact that you hate it adds even more credibility to its awesomeness.     😜


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> How cool!  Can you fit "Western Electric 300B" on the tube while you're at it?  🤣


Not me, but I'm sure Bangy will fill your request


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> *I see what you did there*, but the fact that you hate it adds even more credibility to its awesomeness. 😜


I wasn't the Validictorian in my class for nothing.... 

(Ok, I'll stop )


----------



## Ripper2860

OK. I got nothin'.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> I wasn't the Validic*k*torian in my class for nothing....
> 
> (Ok, I'll stop )


Well, maybe this.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, maybe this.


*LOL!!! *  That was pretty good....for you.


----------



## HWB3

You guys are on a roll!


----------



## HWB3

My wife ordered a Vali 2 for my birthday at the end of September today. There's a three-to-five-week delay. I'm anxious to see which version I get and to listen to how it sounds. I'll check back in.


----------



## Pondoro

HWB3 said:


> My wife ordered a Vali 2 for my birthday at the end of September today. There's a three-to-five-week delay. I'm anxious to see which version I get and to listen to how it sounds. I'll check back in.


I predict you will love either version. I have oodles of tubes for the single+ Vali 2, so I am in good shape with mine.


----------



## HWB3

I'm looking forward to it, my friend.


----------



## cgb3

bcowen said:


> That's a _hemostat_?  I thought it was a roach clip.
> 
> Making a note if it now...


Triple use.

Wait until you see surgeons use them to stem venous blood flow. It will blow your mind.

Best watched from the upper gallery of the operating theater, with a fat spliff, and a nice hemostat.


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## inmytaxi (Sep 15, 2022)

So far I like all the tubes in the Vali 2++.

WE 396a used for $30 (60s), Sylvania 5670 NIB for $13 (triple mica), Tung Sol 2c51 NIB for $60/pair (1958), 6n3p-E NIB - $9 pair (and NOS they claim - 1977, otk 2) and the stock 6n3p.

What do you guys think of the Command RCA 5670? Is Command RCA really a great tube, or hype?

It's amazing how well these little tubes and this tiny amplifier drive these DCA planar headphones far better than FV -- which shrivels up.


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## JIMMY16

Need ooeyiest gooiest (dark, lush) tube for Vali 2+.. Budget is $100. Thanks


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## JIMMY16 (Oct 2, 2022)

Got  60's 63',66' etched on Amperex 6dj8/ecc88 Holland (grey plates/ halo getters?) Tubes. 2 mint for $90. I know nothing about buying tubes.Could someone give any thoughts on these. I searched the threads but most of the conversations were about the Amperex 6922. Thank you


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## Illbetheone (Nov 1, 2022)

Hey guys,

So my Aune T1 crap the bed, and I can't find a replacement for it anywhere that is a decent price. That being said, I have a TON of tubes for it, mostly ECC88/6DJ8, and 6H23/6922. Would these work with the Vali? Also, what's a good DAC to pair it with to make it a nice stack of Schiit =]

Thank you


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## Hyde00 (Nov 1, 2022)

Illbetheone said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So my Aune T1 crap the bed, and I can't find a replacement for it anywhere that is a decent price. That being said, I have a TON of tubes for it, mostly ECC88/6DJ8, and 6H23/6922. Would these work with the Vali? Also, what's a good DAC to pair it with to make it a nice stack of Schiit =]
> 
> Thank you


Yes I believe Vali 2+ would work with all those types without problem.

Back when I had it I had it paired with Modi Multibit, but it's been out of stock due to parts shortage. So your best bet now is Vali 2+ with Modi 3E. Which seems to have pretty good review too.

Let us know what you end up with.


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## adydula (Nov 2, 2022)

Illbetheone said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So my Aune T1 crap the bed, and I can't find a replacement for it anywhere that is a decent price. That being said, I have a TON of tubes for it, mostly ECC88/6DJ8, and 6H23/6922. Would these work with the Vali? Also, what's a good DAC to pair it with to make it a nice stack of Schiit =]
> 
> Thank you











Send a note to Schiit directly to be sure.


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## Mr Trev

Illbetheone said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So my Aune T1 crap the bed, and I can't find a replacement for it anywhere that is a decent price. That being said, I have a TON of tubes for it, mostly ECC88/6DJ8, and 6H23/6922. Would these work with the Vali? Also, what's a good DAC to pair it with to make it a nice stack of Schiit =]
> 
> Thank you


As long as it's one of the older ones - not ++, then yes the tubes will work. Even if it is the ++, adapters are your friend.


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## emorrison33

Illbetheone said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So my Aune T1 crap the bed, and I can't find a replacement for it anywhere that is a decent price. That being said, I have a TON of tubes for it, mostly ECC88/6DJ8, and 6H23/6922. Would these work with the Vali? Also, what's a good DAC to pair it with to make it a nice stack of Schiit =]
> 
> Thank you


If you purchase the Vali2 ++, @Deyan makes some nice adapters.  PM him with what you want, and I'm sure he can oblige.


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## Hyde00

Illbetheone said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So my Aune T1 crap the bed, and I can't find a replacement for it anywhere that is a decent price. That being said, I have a TON of tubes for it, mostly ECC88/6DJ8, and 6H23/6922. Would these work with the Vali? Also, what's a good DAC to pair it with to make it a nice stack of Schiit =]
> 
> Thank you





Mr Trev said:


> As long as it's one of the older ones - not ++, then yes the tubes will work. Even if it is the ++, adapters are your friend.





emorrison33 said:


> If you purchase the Vali2 ++, @Deyan makes some nice adapters.  PM him with what you want, and I'm sure he can oblige.


Ops I forgot now Vali is up to Vali 2++, I had the Vali 2+ which uses the tube types you mentioned (6922 family), but I'm not exactly sure about Vali 2++, I think they switched tube types.

As others have mentioned you might need adapter if you get Vali++, or look for people selling Vali 2+.  Or go for Garage 1217 lol.


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## Tensen (Nov 7, 2022)

Hyde00 said:


> Ops I forgot now Vali is up to Vali 2++, I had the Vali 2+ which uses the tube types you mentioned (6922 family), but I'm not exactly sure about Vali 2++, I think they switched tube types.
> 
> As others have mentioned you might need adapter if you get Vali++, or look for people selling Vali 2+.  Or go for Garage 1217 lol.


They still have vali 2+ on close out page

edit:  oops all gone as of right now.  Should have checked before I posted


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## Hyde00

Tensen said:


> They still have vali 2+ on close out page
> 
> edit:  oops all gone as of right now.  Should have checked before I posted


Oh now I see 4 Silver Vali 2+ popped up on the close out page.

Now is the chance lol.


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## Tensen

Hyde00 said:


> Oh now I see 4 Silver Vali 2+ popped up on the close out page.
> 
> Now is the chance lol.


Hope you got one!


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## ssmith3046 (Dec 5, 2022)

I have a suggestion for the Vali 2++, that is the 2++ only.  I bought a NOS JAN GE 5670W for $20. Late production tube and it's better than the stock tube. I had an old GE 5670 5 star, red stars, delivered today. $20 and it tests strong. It'll probably outlast me. Anyway,  OMG, this tube blows the NOS JAN GE 5670W away. Defined deep bass. Lush mids, smooth highs. Dynamic punch and big soundstage. The separation and placement of the instruments is holographic.  I'm really thrilled with this tube. Highly recommended for the Vali 2++.


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## tigon_ridge

This happened because I got impatient waiting for the adapter to arrive:





This is my first tube amp, and my first time rolling tubes. That tube is a Sylvania 6SN7GTA. The adapter is still at least a week away from arrival from China, so I looked at the datasheets for 6922 and 6SN7, and created this temporary jumper yesterday. 

All in all, this has been very interesting. The stock Sylvania 6BZ7 tube had pretty much no "tubeyness" that I could detect. It sounded pretty thin and sterile out of my Sundara. This replacement does sound significantly fuller, and tamed the highs that were too much on the stock sound. 

Unfortunately, it still doesn't quite match the naturalness of my Crown XLS 1502 amp, which I've been using to power the Sundara through a bananas-to-XLR adapter I made. The XLS sounds fuller in the low-mids and bass, and more liquid in the mids. It conveys spacial cues better. Initially, I thought the Vali + 6SN7GTA sounded clearer, but I realized that the clarity is just the perception of a sharper sound, the stereotypical SS sharpness. The XLS is smoother, but no less detailed. If anything, it's more detailed, because it renders textures better. The XLS is the most tube-like SS amp I've ever heard. It simply sounds so lush and natural. 

I wanted an amp that would give me the sound of the XLS but with less noise floor, for listening to non-music audio. The XLS, being made for loudspeakers, has significant hiss on the Sundara that isn't audible at non-quiet volumes. Now, I'm wondering if upgrading to the Lyr 3/+ will bring out much more of the Sylvania 6SN7GTA's potential, to bring it closer to the XLS, since I've read so much praise about this tube. Perhaps the Vali 2+ is really throttling the tube's tubey character. Do you guys who have both a Lyr and Vali think so?


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## Pondoro

tigon_ridge said:


> This happened because I got impatient waiting for the adapter to arrive:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This looks fraught with danger, but you do not mention any smoke or dead toddlers, so I would say that you must know what you are doing. I think P.J O'Rourke once said, "Even when they do the wrong thing they do it so well that they get an A." I applaud you.


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## tigon_ridge (Dec 12, 2022)

Pondoro said:


> This looks fraught with danger, but you do not mention any smoke or dead toddlers, so I would say that you must know what you are doing. I think P.J O'Rourke once said, "Even when they do the wrong thing they do it so well that they get an A." I applaud you.


I certainly don't recommend it for those who are unfamiliar with reading schematics, and elecronics. I have a small background in EE, but actually the knowledge you need to do this is pretty basic. You just match cathode to cathode (labeled K for cathode), plate to plate (A for anode), grid to grid (G), and heater to heater (F). Of course, you do have to pay close attention to details. There's a difference of ~100v between some pins, and if the wires accidentally touch, you short the circuit and something will probably melt. I prevented that danger by insulating the bare wires with shrink tubes, except for the ones going to the heater. The's also the potential danger of looking at the holes in the receptacle and thinking they overlap the diagram of pins of the 6922 tube. You have to flip that image, with a bit of visualization. For example, pin 1 on the 6922 diagram is on the bottom left of the diagram, but it corresponds to hole 8 (edit: hole 9) if you count the holes clockwise.


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## bcowen

tigon_ridge said:


> This happened because I got impatient waiting for the adapter to arrive:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A couple thoughts:

First, the Lyr 3 is a hybrid just like the Vali 2, so some of the tube character will be masked a bit.  Secondly, most GTA and GTB tubes that I've heard (including the Sylvanias) are less tubey sounding than a straight GT.  Kind of like a 6922 versus a 6DJ8 if you're familiar with those types.  The 6DJ8 has more tone and tube sound than a 6922, at least to my ears.  If you want to get "tube-ier" try a '40's or early '50's gray glass RCA.


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## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> A couple thoughts:
> 
> First, the Lyr 3 is a hybrid just like the Vali 2, so some of the tube character will be masked a bit.  Secondly, most GTA and GTB tubes that I've heard (including the Sylvanias) are less tubey sounding than a straight GT.  Kind of like a 6922 versus a 6DJ8 if you're familiar with those types.  The 6DJ8 has more tone and tube sound than a 6922, at least to my ears.  If you want to get "tube-ier" try a '40's or early '50's gray glass RCA.


I'll also add that Schiit uses negative feedback in their amps, so that'll mitigate some of the tube flavour too


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## ld100

ssmith3046 said:


> I have a suggestion for the Vali 2++, that is the 2++ only.  I bought a NOS JAN GE 5670W for $20. Late production tube and it's better than the stock tube. I had an old GE 5670 5 star, red stars, delivered today. $20 and it tests strong. It'll probably outlast me. Anyway,  OMG, this tube blows the NOS JAN GE 5670W away. Defined deep bass. Lush mids, smooth highs. Dynamic punch and big soundstage. The separation and placement of the instruments is holographic.  I'm really thrilled with this tube. Highly recommended for the Vali 2++.



Where did you get it from?


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## ld100

Is there a list of recommended tubes for Vali 2++? Without reading 400+ pages…


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## jonathan c

ld100 said:


> Where did you get it from?


Try:


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## inmytaxi

Search "sylvania 5670 3 mica" on ebay for good start on nice tubes.

Also I like the Russian 6n3p's that you can find for even less.  Cheap enough to use trial and error.


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